‘English Defense League’ Riot in Birmingham

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Once again, an anti-Islam protest (marketed as “anti-Islamic extremism”) in Britain by the “English Defense League” (a gang of skinheads, racists, and soccer hooligans with connections to the BNP, although they’re now squabbling) has resulted in a riot in Birmingham: Anti-fascists clash with right-wing protesters in Birmingham.

FLV Video

And look who’s hanging out with the English Defense League now, on a tour of Britain with wacko fundamentalist nutbag Martin Mawyer and his “Christian Action Network” — none other than Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch: English Defence League Interviewed by Veteran US Anti-Gay Bigot.

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540 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:48:44pm
And look who’s hanging out with the English Defense League now, on a tour of Britain with wacko fundamentalist nutbag Martin Mawyer — none other than Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch

He keeps coming up with such lovely colleagues.

2 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:51:49pm

Panic on the streets of London

Panic on the streets of Birmingham

/No DJs were harmed in the making of this post.

3 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:55:12pm

To oppose the jihadists, it's essential to join the Nazis./

Brilliant, Spencer!/

4 Bagua  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:56:45pm
soccer football hooligans
5 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:56:55pm

The BNP has its roots in the British Union of Fascists.

6 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:00:02pm

They are learning from Vlaam's Belang and other Eurofascists...
Skinheads with an Israeli flag

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:00:15pm

re: #4 Bagua

soccer football hooligans

8 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:00:20pm

I found the video interesting in that they asked a number of non-whites for their thoughts on the protests. They seem a lot more willing to let the fascists shout their bigotry than I believe the fascists would grant folks like them in return.

9 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:01:12pm

Great, the article itself has a photo of the EDL nut-jobs holding up an Israeli flag, which picture was no doubt used in the article to further paint Israel as being fascist and bigoted... wonderful...

10 lawhawk  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:01:23pm

Oh, this is a wee bit more complicated...

11 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:03:42pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

They are learning from Vlaam's Belang and other Eurofascists...
Skinheads with an Israeli flag

I noticed that in the first link. Talk about co-opting a symbol.

12 Bagua  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:04:57pm

In their minds they are patriots.

13 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:05:12pm

re: #11 Gus 802

It is a disturbing trend... and I am sure the anti-Israeli British media really enjoys showing photos that can be used to equate Israel with Nazism.

14 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:05:15pm

White Flour!!!
/ I like bread.

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:05:28pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Oh, this is a wee bit more complicated...

Although Mohammed Naseem isn't exactly a hero, I can't say I blame him one bit for coming out against these bigoted cretins.

16 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:06:38pm

Of course the claim that the BNP is not affiliated with the English Defense league is bullshit...
BNP Link to English Defence League Website

17 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:07:49pm

re: #9 Enkidu90046

Great, the article itself has a photo of the EDL nut-jobs holding up an Israeli flag, which picture was no doubt used in the article to further paint Israel as being fascist and bigoted... wonderful...

This is a very deliberate strategy of these groups. They're trying to legitimize themselves with a phony pro-Israel stance.

Although, with the image Israel has in Britain, it wouldn't be surprising if some of these freaks are doing that because they think Israel is a "fascist state," and they're attracted to it for that reason.

18 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:08:44pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Oh, this is a wee bit more complicated...

I'm sure other anti-fascists organizations were urged to attend as well. Actually- it's one of the tactics of the euro-fascists to hold these rallies for themselves, and when a counter-demonstration is formed to push the envelope with violence- then claim victimhood at the hands of big, mean anti-fascists.

vlaams belang does this
pro-koln did this too

This is standard operating procedure. I can't blame those opposed to nazis for urging folks to protest against them. I would.

19 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:08:51pm

re: #14 Cannadian Club Akbar

A friend of mine is a well-known black referee in Mixed Martial Arts. Years ago he was reffing a show where one of the fighters was a neo-Nazi skinhead who won his fight. After the fight was over, he was joined in the cage by a bunch of his fellow neo-nazis who were chanting "White power" while pumping their fists. My friend decided to join them and chant "White power" with them... which ended up confusing the hell out of them and causing them to end their chant and quietly walk out of the cage.

20 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:09:03pm

re: #12 Bagua

In their minds they are patriots not goin' to Carolina.


Good afternoon, all.

Well, I see that The US Navy is not the only organization that designs sily hats for its female members.

21 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:09:37pm

Well, I hate to see this, because dammit... if I were a Brit, I wouldn't want that ginormous mosque going up to rival Big Ben as the focal point of the Olympics either. And I wouldn't want to see the continued islam-creep of my country, which is what has happened in the UK.
But putting these skin head nutjobs into the mix , and letting the fascists spew as representing the ' real ' England is just going to ruin decent people's attempts to save their nation from Sharia.

22 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:02pm

Music in "honor" of the EDL:

Youtube Video
23 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:12pm

re: #19 Enkidu90046

Nice.

24 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:13pm

re: #17 Charles

Yet, they no doubt hate Jews just as much as they hate Muslims.

25 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:24pm

re: #13 Enkidu90046

It is a disturbing trend... and I am sure the anti-Israeli British media really enjoys showing photos that can be used to equate Israel with Nazism.

That's true. Meanwhile the EDL protesters were probably using the Israeli flag as a way to agitate the Muslim counter protesters. Or it could be a part of larger strategy to create a false alliance.

26 Bagua  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:45pm

I beleive the Israel support is more just to get in the faces of the Muslims, they are well aware how rabidly anti-Israel much of the Muslim population is.

27 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:47pm

re: #19 Enkidu90046

I guess it's no fun anymore if everybody's doing it.

28 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:54pm

re: #22 Kosh's Shadow

/Well, I was about to go start supper.../

29 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:10:54pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Oh, this is a wee bit more complicated...

There's nothing wrong with organising a counter-protest. In fact it's essential to free speech and serves as a corrective to the community-- demonstrates that the fascist thugs do not represent the community and will not be supported.
It's just like the counter-demonstrations every time there is a neo-Nazi march in the US or a KKK march. It's actually healthy for the community to counter-protest. And then the newspapers will report that although 50 neonazis had the right to hold a march, 3000 people turned out to protest that march.

I support it fully.

30 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:12:49pm

Video of when poor, poor vlaams belang was "victimized" during a 9/11 rally

Youtube Video

How mean of these people to not want to be around nazis.

31 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:12:58pm

re: #21 tradewind

Well, I hate to see this, because dammit... if I were a Brit, I wouldn't want that ginormous mosque going up to rival Big Ben as the focal point of the Olympics either. And I wouldn't want to see the continued islam-creep of my country, which is what has happened in the UK.
But putting these skin head nutjobs into the mix , and letting the fascists spew as representing the ' real ' England is just going to ruin decent people's attempts to save their nation from Sharia.


Where are the 'decent people' who would save the UK from Sharia?
/crickets...playing cricket...

32 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:13:02pm

That (defence) is such a silly way to spell defense.
It's just too close to 'deference ' for comfort.

33 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:13:06pm

re: #27 jaunte

I guess it's no fun anymore if everybody's doing it.

It was one of the most brilliant anti-Racist strategies I have ever seen.

34 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:14:00pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

That is standard procedure for many extremist groups: organize a march on some issue more broadly acceptable, then have militants pump up the situation with provocative words & actions. When a counter-protest gets angry or the police intervene, claim oppression and use it to radicalize the rest of the marchers.

35 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:14:55pm

re: #29 iceweasel

Well, you're more knowledgeable about the affairs of your country than we Yanks. Street brawls in Brimingham should be great for eco-tourism./

36 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:15:20pm

re: #31 NelsFree

Just ordinary British citizens who would like to retain some smidgen of their culture, without going all racist about it. You can stand up for your own traditions and laws without violating the freedom of those who have come to your country to live.

37 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:15:56pm

re: #29 iceweasel

Given the proclivity for violence, the Muslims who counter-protested may have been spoiling for a fight.
Well, I don't know that as a fact. Perhaps we need more time for information to be available.

38 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:16:00pm

re: #17 Charles

Although, with the image Israel has in Britain, it wouldn't be surprising if some of these freaks are doing that because they think Israel is a "fascist state," and they're attracted to it for that reason.

Interesting! I hadn't thought of that possibility.

/OMG!

39 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:16:01pm

re: #34 Kenneth

That is standard procedure for many extremist groups: organize a march on some issue more broadly acceptable, then have militants pump up the situation with provocative words & actions. When a counter-protest gets angry or the police intervene, claim oppression and use it to radicalize the rest of the marchers.

Yes- the tactic is detailed well in the book The Anatomy of Fascism.

More on the book here.

40 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:16:25pm

re: #35 quickjustice

Well, you're more knowledgeable about the affairs of your country than we Yanks. Street brawls in Brimingham should be great for eco-tourism./

You're making assumptions again about what my 'country' is.

I'm a citizen of the world, Comrade! ;)

Although I have spent some time in Birmingham. Meh.

41 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:16:47pm

re: #37 NelsFree

Oh, there aren't any muslims in the UK. They're all Asians.

42 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:17:26pm

re: #40 iceweasel


I'm a citizen of the world, Comrade! ;)

So you are a drunkard, then?

;)

43 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #29 iceweasel

It's actually healthy for the community to counter-protest.
I support it fully.

And if there was a counter-protest to a rally in favor of 0bamacare or against the Iraq war, would you still be as supportive?

Or would the counterdemonstrators simply be dismissed as a vacuous tent-a-mob or schills for big-oil, big-insurance, big-tobacco or whatever the sinister 'big' is that particular week?

44 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:18:32pm

re: #36 tradewind

Just ordinary British citizens who would like to retain some smidgen of their culture, without going all racist about it. You can stand up for your own traditions and laws without violating the freedom of those who have come to your country to live.

I applaud your statement with a hearty upding. So, what actions have you seen these folks taking with respect to resisting Sharia and Dhimmitude?

45 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:18:48pm

re: #37 NelsFree

Given the proclivity for violence, the Muslims who counter-protested may have been spoiling for a fight.
Well, I don't know that as a fact. Perhaps we need more time for information to be available.

Are you suggesting that all Muslims, by nature, have a proclivity to violence?

Maybe they 'provoked' those peaceful, loving, hippie soccer hooligans and fascists?
Soccer hooligans are well known for their pacifism, after all.

46 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:18:59pm

re: #26 Bagua

I beleive the Israel support is more just to get in the faces of the Muslims, they are well aware how rabidly anti-Israel much of the Muslim population is.

More importantly, the pro-Israel rhetoric is a ploy to gain broader anti-jihad credibility. They will dump the Jews the minute they become inconvenient. Robert Spencer, Pam Geller at al are in for one ugly wake-up call.

47 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:19:10pm

re: #17 Charles

I would be suspicious of any Euro group that purported to be pro Israel. It's almost unheard of, given the rampant anti-semitism there.

48 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:19:11pm

re: #35 quickjustice

I dinged you down for continuing this gross rumor.

49 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #43 Fenway_Nation

And if there was a counter-protest to a rally in favor of 0bamacare or against the Iraq war, would you still be as supportive?

Yes, of course I would. I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU. I support your right to speech regardless of whether I endorse your speech.

50 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:19:57pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Excellent book on the disease.

51 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:20:37pm

re: #44 NelsFree

That's just it.
Haven't. It looks as if they're just rolling over.
They might reconsider when some mad mullah starts dynamiting the great museums, castles and statues of Europe as ' idols '.

52 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:21:49pm

re: #49 iceweasel

Yes, of course I would. I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU. I support your right to speech regardless of whether I endorse your speech.

Aha! You are former MA Governor Mike Dukakis!

53 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:21:51pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Oh, this is a wee bit more complicated...

Thugs rumbling with thugs. A pox on both their houses.

/I want nothing to do with either side

54 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:22:23pm

re: #42 Enkidu90046

So you are a drunkard, then?

;)

Upding for the Casablanca reference. ;)
One of my favourite movies. Also about fighting fascism!

Major Strasser: Are you one of those people who cannot imagine the Germans in their beloved Paris?
Rick: It's not particularly my beloved Paris.
Heinz: Can you imagine us in London?
Rick: When you get there, ask me!
Captain Renault: Hmmh! Diplomatist!
Major Strasser: How about New York?
Rick: Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade.

55 lawhawk  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:22:31pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

I don't doubt that one bit. The fascists are an odious bunch and more than willing to do anything to spread their message of hate. By the same token, the mullahs are busy sending their people into the streets to provoke incidents.

There are no good outcomes in any of this.

Speaking of bad outcomes, it looks like an al Qaeda spinoff in Gaza is busy claiming that they attempted to assassinate Jimmy Carter and Tony Blair. The group is a spinoff of Hamas, who figures that Hamas isn't sufficiently Islamist enough. Hamas has been hunting these guys down, but these are the most militant of the former Hamas terrorists -

Mahmoud Taleb, a former commander of Hamas's armed wing, Izzadin Kassam, also threatened that his supporters were planning to launch attacks on Hamas.

Taleb, who is wanted by Hamas's security forces, has been in hiding for more than two years. Several attempts by Hamas to arrest him have failed, prompting the movement to detain many of his friends and relatives.

A veteran journalist in the Gaza Strip described Taleb as the Palestinian Osama bin Laden. The journalist said that Taleb's group was seeking to establish an Islamic "emirate" in the Gaza Strip.

56 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:22:47pm

re: #51 tradewind

That's just it.
Haven't. It looks as if they're just rolling over.
They might reconsider when some mad mullah starts dynamiting the great museums, castles and statues of Europe as ' idols '.

If such a fellow is able to perform such an act in the UK, it will be TOO LATE by then.

57 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:23:18pm

I think there was a Klan rally somewhere in Ohio a few years back.

The good news was that the counterdemonstrators far outnumbered the Klansmen who showed up.

The bad news was that there were numerous gang members amongst the counterdemonstrators who assaulted residences and broke windows on shops downtown after the KKK had left...

58 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:24:48pm

re: #56 NelsFree

I'm not sure it's not already too late, looking at the demographics.
That stuff always seems impossible, until it's done, and you are just left shaking your head.

59 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:25:41pm

re: #55 lawhawk

Just shows you what idiots they are. Why would they want to kill Carter? He's practically their ambassador.

60 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:26:31pm

re: #55 lawhawk

I don't doubt that one bit. The fascists are an odious bunch and more than willing to do anything to spread their message of hate. By the same token, the mullahs are busy sending their people into the streets to provoke incidents.

There are no good outcomes in any of this.

And those are the exact conditions that play into the hands of the fascists. The electorate sees more violence, the current parties are ineffective at dealing with it, and a space is created for the fascists to "fix" the problem and gain the support of the voters. History repeats itself.

61 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:26:40pm

The other "rebranded" "grassroots" group to watch in this is Casuals United.
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

62 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:26:53pm

re: #54 iceweasel

"Casablaca" is, hands down, my FAVORITE movie of all time. I have watched that movie, at least, 30 times and pretty much know the entire movie by heart. My favorite exchange in the movie is between Rick and Ivana.

Ivana: Where were you last night?
Rick: That's so long ago I don't remember.
Ivana: Will I see you tonight?
Rick: I never make plans that far in advance.

I learned how to play chess because of how cool Rick looked in the first scene we see him, sitting by himself, smoking and studying a chess position.

63 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:26:54pm

re: #49 iceweasel

Yes, of course I would. I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU. I support your right to speech regardless of whether I endorse your speech.


I'm sure you would...but would you dismiss it out of hand as being motivated by racism, duped by talk show hosts, bussed in by some astroturfing group or paid off by some corporation like pretty much anyone who questions 0bama's policies so far?

64 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:27:25pm

So, once again, the only people who are actively resisting Sharia are people with whom one should not associate. The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture. What percentage of the UK is Muslim? The US Muslim percentage of population is about 0.66%.

65 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:28:01pm

Btw: Great find Charles, and I'm not the least bit surprised at RS's associations with these hate groups.

66 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:28:05pm

re: #58 tradewind

I'm not sure it's not already too late, looking at the demographics.
That stuff always seems impossible, until it's done, and you are just left shaking your head.

Didn't we do that with Nazi Germany?

67 KathyP  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:28:38pm

Fear has taken over even those who would normally be level headed. I believe is because otherwise rational men and women are frustrated with their nation's ability to grasp the seriousness of the spread of this form of extremism (as others before it, as they well know). I wonder if or when this venom will spread to the us. Can it only be a matter of time?

68 KathyP  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:30:15pm

re: #67 - must not comment after 3 glasses of wine.

69 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:30:28pm

re: #57 Fenway_Nation

I think there was a Klan rally somewhere in Ohio a few years back.

The good news was that the counterdemonstrators far outnumbered the Klansmen who showed up.

The bad news was that there were numerous gang members amongst the counterdemonstrators who assaulted residences and broke windows on shops downtown after the KKK had left...

There was a klan rally in Illinois a few years back. A couple of guys drove their sedan into the rally. I think someone got it on film.

70 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:30:34pm

re: #64 NelsFree

So, once again, the only people who are actively resisting Sharia are people with whom one should not associate. The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture. What percentage of the UK is Muslim? The US Muslim percentage of population is about 0.66%.

I refuse to stand with either neoeurofascists or Islamofascists; in fact, I insist upon standing against them - both of them. And neither is a solution to the other. They are both problems for tolerance and freedom - which is what I stand for.

71 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:31:00pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

Barry Goldwater would too.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

"During his 1964 presidential campaign, Mr. Goldwater was attacked by Democrats and opponents within his own party as a demagogue and a leader of right-wing extremists and racists who was likely to lead the United States into nuclear war, eliminate civil rights progress and destroy such social welfare programs as Social Security."

72 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:31:12pm

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

73 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:31:15pm

re: #55 lawhawk

Wow...first an Olberdouche/Beck smackdown sissy-slap fight...now more Muslim extremists tracking down and killing each other in Gaza?

What next? Maybe the Yankees and NY Giants team busses will collide as the Montreal Canadiens and LA Lakers are crossing the street in front of them and all the starters for all of the teams will be in traction for the next 6 months?

74 Bagua  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:31:26pm

re: #29 iceweasel

This goes a lot deeper than protesting and counter-protesting, the youths are showing their willingness to show up in public and throw bottles and riot with the hooligans toe to toe.

75 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:32:00pm

Ah, we might see the mutual elimination of cretins.

76 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:32:04pm

re: #69 EmmmieG

There was a klan rally in Illinois a few years back. A couple of guys drove their sedan into the rally. I think someone got it on film.

Some well document news footage:

Youtube Video
77 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:32:33pm

re: #67 KathyP

Fear has taken over even those who would normally be level headed. I believe is because otherwise rational men and women are frustrated with their nation's ability to grasp the seriousness of the spread of this form of extremism (as others before it, as they well know). I wonder if or when this venom will spread to the us. Can it only be a matter of time?

The methods of Islamic Da'wa (outreach) are varied. They have a goal of united the entire planet into one Ummah, ruled by Sharia. What reason have they to stop? Historically, only force has stopped the advance of Islam. Tours, Poitiers, Vienna, WW2...

78 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:33:49pm

re: #64 NelsFree

So, once again, the only people who are actively resisting Sharia are people with whom one should not associate. The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture. What percentage of the UK is Muslim? The US Muslim percentage of population is about 0.66%.

I think the percentage in the UK is still under 3%. It doubled between 2004 and 2008 from immigration and births.

79 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:33:51pm

re: #17 Charles

This is a very deliberate strategy of these groups. They're trying to legitimize themselves with a phony pro-Israel stance.

Although, with the image Israel has in Britain, it wouldn't be surprising if some of these freaks are doing that because they think Israel is a "fascist state," and they're attracted to it for that reason.

Perhaps they think that it will reflect badly on Israel, giving these thugs the additional satisfaction of putting the boot in to Israel/Jews, in effect "killing two birds with one stone".

80 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:34:12pm

re: #64 NelsFree

So, once again, the only people who are actively resisting Sharia are people with whom one should not associate. The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture. What percentage of the UK is Muslim? The US Muslim percentage of population is about 0.66%.

Total population: 58.8 million
Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)

2001

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The people who are "actively resisting Sharia" such as the EDL accomplish nothing and are representative of a group that is equally objectionable as Sharia. In this case it wold be the job of the Tories to step up their efforts to oppose whatever changes have been proposed or reverse by Labour.

81 McSpiff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:34:33pm

re: #77 NelsFree

The methods of Islamic Da'wa (outreach) are varied. They have a goal of united the entire planet into one Ummah, ruled by Sharia. What reason have they to stop? Historically, only force has stopped the advance of Islam. Tours, Poitiers, Vienna, WW2...

WW2 stopped islam?

82 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:34:39pm

re: #67 KathyP

Thankfully, the US has not ** been assaulted with the kind of immigration en masse by impoverished Muslims that Europe has brought upon itself. In Europe, they have been pretty much segregated into ghettos, and they show no inclination to assimilate. They don't intermarry, they import spouses in many cases, which makes things worse. Muslims in the US tend to be integrated into the general population, well educated, and relatively affluent.
The exception to this is the US-born converted Muslim , largely minority and often imprisoned, but this is still a small number of people.
** yet

83 Earth56  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:35:18pm

What a screwed up world

A caption under one of the pictures:

Last month there were also clashes when the EDL - formed after British soldiers were abused by Islamic radicals at a homecoming parade in Luton earlier this year - held a rally on the same day as the Unite Against Fascism group.


That gets me boiling also

84 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:35:56pm

I've wondered a couple of times btw whether Mawyer==the Baron. That's pure speculation on my part, but the region is right and they have similar politics.

85 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:36:09pm

re: #58 tradewind

I'm not sure it's not already too late, looking at the demographics.
That stuff always seems impossible, until it's done, and you are just left shaking your head.

Don't believe the crap that's being floated out there about "demographics." Britain is not about to be taken over by the dreaded Muslim horde.

86 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:36:15pm

On my current reading list:

Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream

Journalist Zeskind delivers a thorough, if scattered, dossier on white nationalist politics in America from the end of WWII to the present, focusing closely on three plotters on the fringe of the American mainstream: Willis Carto, William Pierce and David Duke. Among the book's dizzying investigations of neo-Confederates, skinheads, survivalists, tax protestors, Second Amendment nuts and anti-Semites, these three men loom largest as the provocateurs and grandfathers of racist politics. Drawing on writings from Oswald Spengler and Francis Parker Yockey, these white nationalists constructed a narrative about the death of Western civilization, where white nationalists are patriotic race warriors hawking their ideas at gun shows, in print and in online forums. With the breadth of an encyclopedia, this book features a staggering number of actors, publications, flashpoints and organizations, such as the Posse Comitatus movement, which denies all of the Constitution's amendments after the 14th, prints community money and seeks independence from ZOG (the Zionist Occupation Government). Zeskind's rigorously researched and eloquent book is a definitive history of white nationalism and contains alarming warnings for a resurgence in racist politics.

87 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:36:22pm

re: #64 NelsFree

The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture.

I don't think they are accepting of such a decline, for the simple reason that they would not agree that it's declining.

88 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:36:31pm

re: #70 Salamantis

I refuse to stand with either neoeurofascists or Islamofascists; in fact, I insist upon standing against them - both of them. And neither is a solution to the other. They are both problems for tolerance and freedom - which is what I stand for.

...and another hearty upding. Now, what actions would you take besides statements of stance? What might the peaceful citizens of the UK do?

89 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:36:57pm

re: #63 Fenway_Nation

I'm sure you would...but would you dismiss it out of hand as being motivated by racism, duped by talk show hosts, bussed in by some astroturfing group or paid off by some corporation like pretty much anyone who questions 0bama's policies so far?

No, of course not. That being said, there is abundant evidence that the antihealth care protests are being funded by special interest groups, and many of the people turning up at them are poorly informed about the actual proposals and have been manipulated and lied to. (deathpanels, euthanasia, seniors on medicare claiming they don't want gov't medicine, etc)

There are legitimate issues to raise about Obama care, but that hasn't been happening (for the most part).

So I see those protests as including people who do have legitimate fears and questions, or legitimate anxieties-- but many of them are being manipulated. It's a sign of the times though-- the anxiety, the fear, etc.

I know you wanted to raise this issue and I'm definitely happy to discuss it further with you Fenway, but I don't want to go offtopic in this thread (or not so early). So could we take it up further later, or on the overnight? I kind of am into the thread topic.
xxx iDub

90 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:37:12pm

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]


Islamophobia and anti-Muslim bigotry

Neil D, September 3rd 2009, 2:18 pm

Kenan Malik’s series on Islam continues this week with discussion about the political device of Islamophobia and the very real anti-Muslim bigotry that does exist. You can listen to it here for 7 days.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

91 lawhawk  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:37:34pm

re: #59 tradewind

Just shows you what idiots they are. Why would they want to kill Carter? He's practically their ambassador.

The new group, an al Qaeda affiliate, and a spinoff of Hamas itself (one of the former commanders of its elite terror wing), claimed Carter and Blair had Palestinian blood on their hands - I have to believe they figure that not bringing about Israel's destruction is reason enough for them to think that.

Hamas thwarted the attempt - because they don't want to be outflanked to the right.

92 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:38:10pm

re: #81 McSpiff

WW2 stopped islam?

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.

93 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:38:47pm

re: #88 NelsFree

...and another hearty upding. Now, what actions would you take besides statements of stance? What might the peaceful citizens of the UK do?

When a group of nongovernmental political or religious people try to restrict their personal freedom more tightly than the law of the land does, take them to court.

94 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:39:33pm

re: #84 Thanos

I've wondered a couple of times btw whether Mawyer==the Baron. That's pure speculation on my part, but the region is right and they have similar politics.

Baron was outed awhile back. The site that did so was nutty, and I won't link it here at LGF, but a follow up did show the name to be closely associated with Paul Belien and other VB interests. Should I send you an email?

95 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:39:50pm

re: #82 tradewind

Thankfully, the US has not ** been assaulted with the kind of immigration en masse by impoverished Muslims that Europe has brought upon itself. In Europe, they have been pretty much segregated into ghettos, and they show no inclination to assimilate. They don't intermarry, they import spouses in many cases, which makes things worse. Muslims in the US tend to be integrated into the general population, well educated, and relatively affluent.
The exception to this is the US-born converted Muslim , largely minority and often imprisoned, but this is still a small number of people.
** yet

As I recall, in the wake of the 2005 bombings, the British government investigated the treatment of new immigrants and came to the conclusion that they could have done a lot more to help (or perhaps influence) the immigrants to assimilate. There appears to have been no parallel to the US naturalization process where there is at least an attempt to instil a sense of pride in new citizens.

96 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:40:11pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

Baron was outed awhile back. The site that did so was nutty, and I won't link it here at LGF, but a follow up did show the name to be closely associated with Paul Belien and other VB interests. Should I send you an email?

Yes please do.

97 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:40:38pm

re: #93 Salamantis

When a group of nongovernmental political or religious people try to restrict their personal freedom more tightly than the law of the land does, take them to court.

An individual can do whatever they wish with their freedom. The issue is when a "leader" of a group tries to, by intimidation, take away the freedom of others of that group, usually the physically smaller and weaker of the group.*

*Being made to clean up your room by your much-bigger father is NOT oppression, however, no matter what my boys say.

98 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:40:57pm

re: #85 Charles
Maybe not, I am sure that headlines are used to alarm people. But the statistics are compelling, and even more so if you realize that the British indigenous population is largely aging, and the muslim population is largely a very young one.
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

99 McSpiff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:41:03pm

re: #92 NelsFree

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.

Totally forgot. I was more thinking that the damage to the european powers caused them to give independence to the various Arab nations, at least somewhat quicker. But I will agree with you here

100 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:41:37pm

re: #85 Charles

Don't believe the crap that's being floated out there about "demographics." Britain is not about to be take over by the Muslim horde.

Yep, 2.8% in 2001 doesn't exactly seem like a "take over." Christians were at 71.8% and "no religion" was at 15.1%.

[Link: www.statistics.gov.uk...]

101 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:41:59pm

re: #92 NelsFree

The Handsclar battalion, if my memory serves me correctly.

102 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:42:04pm

re: #91 lawhawk


Which again brings me back to the question of why the Paleos would want to whack their biggest cheerleader (carter)?

103 Bagua  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:42:05pm

Interesting that the photos of riot in the Times shows the Muslims throwing missiles at a distance from shielded police, the hooligans looked to be more having a drunken jostle with the police at close quarters.

104 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:42:27pm

re: #100 Gus 802

But the 2.8% are having babies!

/and little brown babies at that!!

105 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:43:30pm

re: #92 NelsFree

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.


The 13th Hanjar SS, IIRC...made up mostly of Bosnian Muslims.

106 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:43:48pm

re: #91 lawhawk

How screwed are we when Hamas is the good guy?

107 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:44:01pm

Meanwhile, Glenn Beck has released a gloating statement about Van Jones at his website, to which I won't link.

108 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:44:08pm

re: #99 McSpiff

Totally forgot. I was more thinking that the damage to the european powers caused them to give independence to the various Arab nations, at least somewhat quicker. But I will agree with you here

Even today, you can find male Muslims in Gaza or the West Bank named "Adolf". Hamas also uses the Nazi salute in public ceremonies.

109 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:44:14pm

Oohh... a flounce downstairs by an Ace-ist...

Kind of a dud really; I was hoping for a nice, big, juicy flounce to go with dinner.

110 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:44:22pm

re: #64 NelsFree

So, once again, the only people who are actively resisting Sharia are people with whom one should not associate. The general citizenry are accepting of the gradual decline in their culture in favor of Muslim culture. What percentage of the UK is Muslim? The US Muslim percentage of population is about 0.66%.

There IS no 'general decline in the UK culture', nor is the Muslim percentage of the UK pop at all high.
To be honest, the babble about 'protecting the culture' is a code phrase for white nationalists and fascists in the the UK, just as it is in the US. Also, the UK has a long history of racism and tension against Asian immigrants or people of Asian descent going at least back to the 60's.

The 'muslim fear' in the UK is just the new iteration of the old racism, only pivoting to religion as a basis for the bigotry. It also unites with the legitimate fears about terrorism there, 7-7, etc.

111 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:44:54pm

re: #105 Fenway_Nation

I think they were also recruited actively into the notorious "Black Legion"

112 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:01pm

OT ,, GREAT News, Lizards

We're all getting the complete collection of michael Moore Movies for FREE

"Capitalism is evil," says new Michael Moore film
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

As we speak, I'm sure Mr Moore is liquidating all earthly possesions and donating them to the collective!

//or ,, maybe not!

113 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:15pm

re: #104 freetoken

But the 2.8% are having babies!

/and little brown babies at that!!

Right. There's nothing they can do about it either. Things change and so do demographics in the long run. People are in denial about sociological evolution. If we are going to look at "what ifs" or changes imagine looking at the demographics 1000 years from now.

114 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

"During his 1964 presidential campaign, Mr. Goldwater was attacked by Democrats and opponents within his own party as a demagogue and a leader of right-wing extremists and racists who was likely to lead the United States into nuclear war, eliminate civil rights progress and destroy such social welfare programs as Social Security."

115 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:39pm

A nice flounce-off on the previous thread.

116 McSpiff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:41pm

re: #105 Fenway_Nation

The 13th Hanjar SS, IIRC...made up mostly of Bosnian Muslims.

Do we know if this was the typical SS formation of an occupied country? I know there were similar groups for french, russians, Latvians, etc for collaborators

117 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:45:49pm

re: #92 NelsFree

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.

I am not very knowledgeable on all of that, but I don't think they (non-Germans) would have been allowed into the SS. Didn't they have rather strict racial guidelines for membership in that disgusting little "inner circle"?

118 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:46:00pm

re: #96 Thanos

Done.

119 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:46:27pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not very knowledgeable on all of that, but I don't think they (non-Germans) would have been allowed into the SS. Didn't they have rather strict racial guidelines for membership in that disgusting little "inner circle"?

The Waffen-SS had regiments from almost all the occupied countries.

120 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:46:40pm

re: #107 Charles

Meanwhile, Glenn Beck has released a gloating statement about Van Jones at his website, to which I won't link.

I totally did not see that coming.
/

121 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:47:36pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

You would be very surprised then to discover that the information about Bosnian Muslim SS units is a historical fact.

122 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:47:57pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

They were apparently considered an "old Austrian tradition"
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

123 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:23pm

re: #90 Jimmah

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

I love Radio 4. Listening now. ;)

124 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:26pm

Beck would do well realizing that discretion is the better part of valor now that ColorofChange is temporarily neutralized, and try to recoup his sponsors.
But, he probably won't.

125 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:31pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not very knowledgeable on all of that, but I don't think they (non-Germans) would have been allowed into the SS. Didn't they have rather strict racial guidelines for membership in that disgusting little "inner circle"?

In fact, there were a few misguided British that were recruited from POW camps, or perhaps the Channel Islands into the Waffen-SS. Apparently they were more trouble than they were worth to the Germans however...

Some Irish also volunteered I believe as well...

126 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:33pm

re: #119 DrNaughty

The Waffen-SS had regiments from almost all the occupied countries.

Okay. I was under the impression that you had to be able to trace your pure German lineage back to the 1500s, or something like that.

I guess I was under the wrong impression.

127 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:50pm

Tea Party anti-government militia member big hit at Tea Party...
OathKeepers @ Southaven MS TEA Party 9/5/09

Liveleak Video
128 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:53pm

re: #92 NelsFree

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.

[Link: palestinefacts.org...]

129 McSpiff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:48:55pm

re: #108 NelsFree

Even today, you can find male Muslims in Gaza or the West Bank named "Adolf". Hamas also uses the Nazi salute in public ceremonies.

One time while being checked into a cuban resort I noticed the gentlemen had a very nice, very large diamond ring. His name, according to the name tag? Lenin. Wonder what his family's politics was...

130 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:51:07pm

re: #121 Enkidu90046

I wouldn't characterize my reaction as "surprise" really. More of an "Oh, I did not know that".

Like most people, I am ignorant of a great many things. This specific subject appears to be one of those things.

131 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:52:07pm

re: #126 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay. I was under the impression that you had to be able to trace your pure German lineage back to the 1500s, or something like that.

I guess I was under the wrong impression.

The SS was a very complex organization. The Waffen-SS were front-line combat units that had different requirements than other parts of the organization. They generally received better and newer weapons than the normal German Army as well...

132 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:52:31pm

re: #123 iceweasel

I love Radio 4. Listening now. ;)

Glad to know it can be accessed outside the uk ;-)

I wasn't sure till now.

133 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:53:40pm

re: #126 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay. I was under the impression that you had to be able to trace your pure German lineage back to the 1500s, or something like that.

I guess I was under the wrong impression.

I think they did spend a lot of time manufacturing fake genealogies for some people, didn't they? To prove they were purest Aryan or whatever?

I'm ignorant about all this myself, obviously. I bet someone here knows.

134 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:53:40pm

re: #125 DrNaughty

I think there were also some Swedish volunteers, despite Sweden technically being neutral.

135 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:54:42pm

there were more vichy french in the SS than in the free french, the grand mufti of jerusalem (arafart cousin) formed a couple of SS division the largest being the Handsar division

136 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:55:00pm

re: #131 DrNaughty

Thanks, folks. I am getting an education here.

/On a sunday? I better crack open a few beers and put a stop to that.
//

137 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:56:20pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

Regardless of their supposed racial "purity", the SS were a bunch of murderous, genocidal bastards who happily killed Germans who weren't sufficiently loyal to the Fuhrer.

138 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:56:27pm

re: #130 Slumbering Behemoth

There are an amazing number of direct ties between the present Islamic extremist movement and Nazism. Even the secular thugs like the Ba'ath party are modeled after Nazism. There are even greater direct ties between the Palestinian movement and Nazism that go back to the 1930s or possibly even earlier. And, given the fact that Arafat's uncle, Haj-Amin Al-Husseini, was one of the architects of the Holocaust (and had the Germans won the European war, had secured promises from Hitler to extend the Final Solution to the Middle East), there are direct ties between the Palestinian and Islamists and the Holocaust. No wonder why Hamas considers it a war crime for UN schools to teach about the Holocaust in the territories.

139 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:56:31pm

re: #128 Salamantis

Good catch on the article. I like the phrase, "expediently switched sides", to indicate the moral compass of the Grand Mufti.

140 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:57:42pm

OT
The governor of Utah--Huntsman's replacement--doesn't see what the big deal is about the President's speech on Tuesday.

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]

141 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:57:52pm

re: #135 yochanan

Actually, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a British-appointed Nazi sympathizer who personally treated with Hitler, was Yassir Arafat's uncle.

142 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:58:19pm

re: #132 Jimmah

Glad to know it can be accessed outside the uk ;-)

I wasn't sure till now.

US can livestream all BBC radio channels IIRC. Just not all TV.

Wherever I am, the shipping news goes with me...and Radio 4 is always on.

;-)

143 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:58:50pm

re: #112 sattv4u2

OT ,, GREAT News, Lizards

We're all getting the complete collection of michael Moore Movies for FREE

"Capitalism is evil," says new Michael Moore film
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

As we speak, I'm sure Mr Moore is liquidating all earthly possesions and donating them to the collective!

//or ,, maybe not!


Money quote from the article...

Amid the gloom, Moore detects the beginnings of a popular movement against unbridled capitalism, and believes President Barack Obama's rise to power may bolster it.

144 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:59:06pm

re: #140 EmmmieG

"I hope parents will take the opportunity to discuss the issues with their children, hear what the president's views are and what his vision is for the future of America. If they agree, then explain that. If they disagree, explain to their children why. I see nothing but good coming out of this,"

What a radical concept.

145 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:59:15pm

re: #138 Enkidu90046

I was aware of some of that, but this is a subject that I am not nearly as knowledgeable on as many of the Lizards here.

146 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:59:20pm

re: #138 Enkidu90046

Ba'ath was founded in 1943 by the German Gestapo to undermine British rule in the Middle East. It was directly modeled on the Nazi Party.

147 lawhawk  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #140 EmmmieG

I don't think the President's speech on Tuesday is that big a deal. I'm more interested in what he's going to tell Congress on Wednesday. That's the speech to watch, and to see how and whether he can regain initiative on the health care debate.

The speech to the students is going to be the usual claptrap Presidents tell students - be studious, pay attention in class, and do all the right things and you'll go far. Heck, even if you make a few mistakes along the way, they could become President.

148 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 4:59:54pm

re: #134 Fenway_Nation

I think there were also some Swedish volunteers, despite Sweden technically being neutral.

Probably. Ok to clarify some things. Up until 1940 I believe the SS was the "elite" political paramilitary force of the Nazi Party. It was never a part of the German Army nor would it ever be. It was in the 1930s that the volunteers had to be "Aryan" and meet the requiprements of the Nazi Party.

As the war progressed, Hitler authorized foreign volunteers to become members of various legions, and fight as combat units to suppliment the Aryan combat units... The combat units were the Waffen-SS, and the foreign volunteer legions in the Waffen-SS were kept separate from the German units...

149 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:00:21pm

Would it surprise anyone to find out the Jonah Goldberg believes that Van Jones is a "truther"?

Van Jones & Obama's "Centrism"

I just watched David Axelrod, the top ranking political advisor in the White House, and Robert Gibbs, the President's spokesman on "Meet the Press" and "This Week" respectively. Neither of them was willing, even after repeated questioning, to offer a single negative word about Van Jones. Not one word. A 9/11 Truther and defender of Mumia-Abu Jamal is not radical enough for this White House to distance itself from the man in any way.

[...]


What gets me is this... of all people, Goldberg ought to be aware of the need to check sources. NRO continually posts articles about, shall we say, people and movements with suspicious links.

My opinion of Goldberg has gone steadily downhill since the start of the 2008 election cycle. Like many writers, he has joined the parade-mentality, that if he is going to sell books he has to buy into the group-think instead of doing his own research.

That he now appears on Glenn Beck's program is now not surprising.

150 NelsFree  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:00:40pm

Well, supper is ready and the dog wants his back scratched. It's been real. Later!

151 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:01:17pm

re: #137 quickjustice

Regardless of their supposed racial "purity", the SS were a bunch of murderous, genocidal bastards who happily killed Germans who weren't sufficiently loyal to the Fuhrer.

100% agreement.

152 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:01:20pm

re: #146 quickjustice

I thought the Vichy established the Ba'ath in Syria during WWII...with other nations following the example post WWII/independence.

153 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:02:48pm

re: #138 Enkidu90046

There are an amazing number of direct ties between the present Islamic extremist movement and Nazism. Even the secular thugs like the Ba'ath party are modeled after Nazism. There are even greater direct ties between the Palestinian movement and Nazism that go back to the 1930s or possibly even earlier. And, given the fact that Arafat's uncle, Haj-Amin Al-Husseini, was one of the architects of the Holocaust (and had the Germans won the European war, had secured promises from Hitler to extend the Final Solution to the Middle East), there are direct ties between the Palestinian and Islamists and the Holocaust. No wonder why Hamas considers it a war crime for UN schools to teach about the Holocaust in the territories.

The Ba'ath party's history comes from the Vichy French control of Syria and Lebanon...

154 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:03:17pm

re: #147 lawhawk

I agree. What President Obama says to the kids isn't important, and will be politically correct. I'd say conservative parents are more upset about the notion of Obama becoming, or being presented as, a role model for their kids. You know, a teenage smoker and druggie with communist leanings.

155 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:04:14pm

re: #149 freetoken

News flash... the general consensus, even though it may be false, by even the MSM is that Jones is a truther. All the morning talks today just threw it out there as the reason he was canned, without bothering to disclaim , other than perfunctorily, that he said he was not.
They're already on to the next story, and they won't bother to correct themselves, so that's how he goes down.

156 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:04:35pm
157 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:05:12pm

re: #146 quickjustice

Ba'ath was founded in 1943 by the German Gestapo to undermine British rule in the Middle East. It was directly modeled on the Nazi Party.

Anwar Sadat was also a part of a group of Egyptian officers that were pro-Nazi and waiting for Rommel to roll into Cairo in 1942. I believe there were plans for some sort of rebellion after the Battle of El Alemein if the British lost the battle..

158 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:05:44pm

re: #152 Fenway_Nation

My source for the information about the Gestapo founding Ba'ath in 1943 is Professor Bernard Lewis of Princeton. The Vichy French certainly were helping the Germans.

159 tradewind  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:06:13pm

re: #154 quickjustice

I think this could have all been avoided if they hadn't stuck the Lesson Plan in there.
That's what raised some parent hackles. Right or wrong, silly or not, it smacked too much of indoctrination, the old ' teaching to the test ', NEA-run education thing.

160 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:06:40pm
161 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:07:14pm

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

Upding... and now that you have told me that you say that, I think I will start saying it as well! Very well phrased.

162 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:07:25pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

People also tend to forget that Egypt and Syria were host to many, many fugitive Nazis after the defeat of Germany, some of whom rose to high positions in those nations' governments.

The Arab recycling of old Nazi antisemitic propaganda should therefore be no surprise.

Didn't some high-level Nazis convert to Islam?

163 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:08:50pm

re: #149 freetoken


My opinion of Goldberg has gone steadily downhill since the start of the 2008 election cycle. Like many writers, he has joined the parade-mentality, that if he is going to sell books he has to buy into the group-think instead of doing his own research.

That he now appears on Glenn Beck's program is now not surprising.

Freetoken, not only is he on the Glnn Bck show, he was on that show where Beck was claiming gubbmint would hack your computer and would have the right to seize everything in your house if you visited the cash for clunkers site. The Doughy Pantload was on there nodding and agreeing.

The fact that Jonah Goldberg, of all people, is now considered some kind of conservative intellectual is a sign of the total collapse of the right.

164 transient  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:08:56pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

People also tend to forget that Egypt and Syria were host to many, many fugitive Nazis after the defeat of Germany, some of whom rose to high positions in those nations' governments.

This subject is actually of some interest to me (especially pertaining to Egypt). You wouldn't happen to have a reference/ book title off the top of your head?

165 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:02pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

People also tend to forget that Egypt and Syria were host to many, many fugitive Nazis after the defeat of Germany, some of whom rose to high positions in those nations' governments.

The Arab recycling of old Nazi antisemitic propaganda should therefore be no surprise.

Hint: During the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, there were more former Waffen-SS men killed than French nationals...

166 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:10pm

Finally, some news of actual importance:

Apple approves Commodore 64 emulator for iPhone

A previously rejected iPhone title offering emulated play of Commodore 64 titles has been approved after the developer made changes to align it with Apple's SDK. It allows the iPhone to act as a system that was what was once Apple's staunch competitor.

167 McSpiff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:28pm

Its important to note that many nationalist groups supported the Nazis, for instance
the old IRA also did ([Link: en.wikipedia.org...] In this sense, arab support for the Nazis, such as in egypt might have been somewhat due to nationalism.

168 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:38pm

re: #157 DrNaughty

There was. So even though Monty was a horribly incompetent general, at least he was able to win the battle of El Alamein. Of course, had Monty been able to close to Falaise gap or maybe not come up with the incompetent operation Market Garden...

169 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:39pm
170 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:09:41pm

van said he signed it not saying he read it when he signed BDS makes folks do lots of different things. when it came back and bit him in the ass he said he did not really understand what he signed.

frankly his anti semitism was enough for me.

thank you zombie for your work on this one.

171 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:10:08pm

re: #162 MandyManners

Didn't some high-level Nazis convert to Islam?

Not that I'm aware. They were in a cult of worship for Hitler, not Muhammad...

172 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:10:18pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

People also tend to forget that Egypt and Syria were host to many, many fugitive Nazis after the defeat of Germany, some of whom rose to high positions in those nations' governments.

The Arab recycling of old Nazi antisemitic propaganda should therefore be no surprise.

(the thread's still serious, and dead-bang on target, so please forgive my compulsion)

"many, many"
So it was more than just a Paraguays who took refuge there?

173 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:10:28pm

re: #163 iceweasel

The fact that Jonah Goldberg, of all people, is now considered some kind of conservative intellectual is a sign of the total collapse of the right.

I agree. When Goldberg called Leonard Nimoy a "pornographer" it was a sign of how far down the intellectual ladder Goldberg has fallen.

174 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:10:44pm

re: #159 tradewind

The underlying premise of the lesson plan is that Barack Obama is a role model for children, someone they should emulate, admire, and try to help. For a conservative parent, the philosophical question is, which Obama are they talking about? The teenage smoker? The druggie? The communist? The Harvard law graduate? The community organizer? For a conservative, there's not much to admire there.

175 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:11:22pm

re: #165 DrNaughty

Now that does come as a surprise to me and is something I knew nothing about. Have any good books/articles about that I can read?

176 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:11:36pm

re: #174 quickjustice

How about the dedicated father and faithful husband.

Perhaps you would prefer Gov. Sanford to fill that role?

177 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:12:00pm

re: #169 buzzsawmonkey

That I do not know.

It is, however, instructive to read about such people as Alois Brunner.

There was a similar figure in the Egyptian government who recently died, but whose name I forget.

I have a link somewhere about at least one.

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:12:20pm

I keep seeing similar headlines all over the place...
Glenn Beck's victory for conservative America

This may have saved Glenn Beck's job.

179 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:12:43pm

re: #171 DrNaughty

Not that I'm aware. They were in a cult of worship for Hitler, not Muhammad...

No. 177.

180 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:12:48pm

re: #174 quickjustice

For a conservative, there's not much to admire there.


That's a shame.

181 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:13:28pm

re: #167 McSpiff

I think it went FAR deeper than that, particularly given the fact that Al-Husseini was a close adviser to Hitler and many of the statements made by lboth about the nature of the alliance between the Muslim world and Nazi Germany and their shared ideology.

182 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:13:37pm

re: #173 freetoken

I agree. When Goldberg called Leonard Nimoy a "pornographer" it was a sign of how far down the intellectual ladder Goldberg has fallen.

Why did he call Nimoy a pornographer?

183 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:13:41pm

re: #173 freetoken

I agree. When Goldberg called Leonard Nimoy a "pornographer" it was a sign of how far down the intellectual ladder Goldberg has fallen.

Leonard Nimoy a pornographer? Why?

184 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:13:50pm

re: #177 MandyManners

I have a link somewhere about at least one.

Wasn't it that creep who translated or was the editor of 'mein kampf' and the 'protcols ..' ?
The name eludes me.

185 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:13:50pm

re: #168 Enkidu90046

When I toured the Eisenhower house in Gettysburg, the guide pointed out the guest house, which had housed General Montgomery. She said relations between Eisenhower and Montgomery always were strained.

186 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:14:13pm

re: #162 MandyManners

Didn't some high-level Nazis convert to Islam?

I think one of the most wanted concentration camp doctors escaped to Egypt and converted to Islam, subsequently dying there around 15-20 years ago.

187 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:14:35pm

Speaking of the BNP:

The BNP on prime time TV? Bring it on

Give them the oxygen of publicity and British voters will choke on the party’s ignorant bigotry

Should the BNP be allowed on Question Time? Of course they should. And Newsnight, the Andrew Marr Show, BBC Breakfast, the Daily Politics, the Today programme, PM, The World Tonight, This Week, you name it. Hell, they should be given a run-out on This Morning with Phil and Holly, a slot on the One Show and a weekly outing on Have I Got News for You.

Giving these racists publicity is like handing them a length of rope.

All it would take is three months of full-frontal exposure and not even the denizens of Burnley would bother to vote for them. If you disbelieve me, take a look at their website. It is pure comic book stuff, so lacking in intellectual rigour, so riddled with inanity, so comically prejudiced, that it reads like parody, not policy. It kept me so amused yesterday that I forgot to watch the footie.

188 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:14:41pm
189 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:14:55pm

re: #183 Jimmah

Leonard Nimoy a pornographer? Why?

I hope it wasn't because of this:

Youtube Video
190 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:03pm

re: #168 Enkidu90046

There was. So even though Monty was a horribly incompetent general, at least he was able to win the battle of El Alamein. Of course, had Monty been able to close to Falaise gap or maybe not come up with the incompetent operation Market Garden...

The failure to close the Falaise-Argentan gap was Bradleys. Montomrey was up in northern France. Market-Garden was a combination of a lack of intelliegence and overconfidence after we won the Battle of Normany in the summer. Even if we had sized the Arnhem bridgehead it would not have been the easy dash into Germany as Montgomery hoped... which we found out in December with the German Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge).

191 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:15pm

Just found this one again.

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

192 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:25pm

re: #176 freetoken

Cool it. I qualified my comment with "conservative" to make clear the bias. I'm not saying there's nothing admirable about Obama. I'm sure you can generate a long list.

193 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:46pm

re: #185 quickjustice

When I toured the Eisenhower house in Gettysburg, the guide pointed out the guest house, which had housed General Montgomery. She said relations between Eisenhower and Montgomery always were strained.

Arrogance does not make you friends or influence people..

194 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:49pm

re: #186 John Neverbend

I think one of the most wanted concentration camp doctors escaped to Egypt and converted to Islam, subsequently dying there around 15-20 years ago.

That's the one.

195 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:15:59pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

I hope the interviewer does a decent job with that one.

196 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:16:38pm

re: #183 Jimmah

Leonard Nimoy a pornographer? Why?

This maybe?


And that’s why I was so annoyed with renowned Orthodox Jewish soft-porn photographer Leonard Nimoy’s statement that fans need to “open their minds.” “Canon,” Nimoy explains, “is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae.”

Jonah Goldberg

197 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:17:36pm

re: #185 quickjustice

Doesn't surprise me... Monty was a very bad general. The Brits had some very very good generals, but they didn't have the sort of support among the people for being the hero of North Africa that Monty had. Ike had to deal with a lot more than winning a war... he was very good at politics, and that is what Monty's status was all about.

198 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:17:45pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Here's Leonard Nimoy's photography. Goldberg is being foolish.
[Link: www.leonardnimoyphotography.com...]

199 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:17:56pm

OMG! Look at the photography of Leonard Nimoy!

[Link: www.leonardnimoyphotography.com...]

200 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #198 jaunte

Here's Leonard Nimoy's photography. Goldberg is being foolish.
[Link: www.leonardnimoyphotography.com...]

He sure is. Nothing new.

201 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:18:50pm

re: #183 Jimmah

Leonard Nimoy a pornographer? Why?

Who do you think took all those videos of Kirk with the green chics?

203 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:19:50pm

re: #200 Gus 802

Goldberg is also offended by those Darwin Fish bumper stickers.

204 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:20:29pm

re: #190 DrNaughty

Monty fell FAR behind the time table laid out for Operation Overlord (D-Day). I cannot remember off hand how long it took him to take Caan, but it was far behind schedule. He was overly concerned with casualties and far too tentative (which made him, of all people, planning Market Garden so surprising).

205 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:20:35pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Jonah Goldberg


or maybe this: Shekhina

206 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:20:53pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Goldberg is also offended by those Darwin Fish bumper stickers.

Thats what those are? I just thought lots of people went to Phish concerts!

207 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:21:33pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Goldberg is also offended by those Darwin Fish bumper stickers.

That's OK. I'm offended by creationism/id, so the Universe remains in balance.

208 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:21:40pm

re: #197 Enkidu90046

Doesn't surprise me... Monty was a very bad general. The Brits had some very very good generals, but they didn't have the sort of support among the people for being the hero of North Africa that Monty had. Ike had to deal with a lot more than winning a war... he was very good at politics, and that is what Monty's status was all about.

I don't know about "very" bad, but after Rommel's push into Egypt, the Axis forces in North Africa were crippled by supply problems, not generalship on the British side. Sea and air power based on Malta ate the Italian convoys alive.

209 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:22:03pm

Tennesse Mayor forwards Anti-Islam Email to Public officials

Mayor forwarded an e-mail urging "patriotic Americans" to protest a U.S. Postal Service "Eid" stamp marking Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha (Islamic holidays).
...
The Eid stamp was first issued in 2001 and was re-issued several times in 2002, 2006, 2007 and 2008 as the price increased. The 44-cent version was issued day before yesterday. The e-mail falsely claims that the stamp is new, and its creation was ordered by President Barack Obama.." The email also states, "REMEMBER to adamantly & vocally BOYCOTT this stamp, when you are purchasing your stamps at the post office. All you have to say is, No thank you, I don't want that Muslim stamp on my letters. To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors."


According to theleafofchronicle.com, Mayor defended the email by saying he sent it on as "information," for others to read and make their own conclusions about. "I don't see any reason why it would be inappropriate," Piper said, adding that he thought the e-mail was neither anti-Muslim or anti-Islamic.

210 ladycatnip  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:22:48pm

#143 Fenway_Nation

Money quote from the article...

Amid the gloom, Moore detects the beginnings of a popular movement against unbridled capitalism, and believes President Barack Obama's rise to power may bolster it.

Wonder if Moore is including the unbridled capitalism he's experienced as a result of all his movies. Maybe Obama should appoint an entertainment czar to put a cap on all revenues, royalties and huge paychecks from those in the industry.

211 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #205 John Neverbend

or maybe this: Shekhina

Looks normal to me. Remember this?

Your text to link...Curtains for semi-nude justice statue

No longer will US Attorney General John Ashcroft appear in public with a semi-nude statue towering above him.

The US Justice Department has spent $8,000 on curtains to hide the statue from the cameras.

The female, art-deco "Spirit of Justice" statue, with one breast exposed, is located on the podium in the department's ornate Great Hall where news conferences are often held.

[Link: images.google.com...]

212 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:26pm

Northern Ireland at risk of a 'race war', anti-fascist campaigner warns police

British neo-Nazis are luring young who used to back paramilitary loyalist groups

A former National Front member turned anti-fascist campaigner has warned police officers that Northern Ireland faces a race war in place of the Troubles unless racism is confronted now.

The warning was issued during the first training programme for PSNI officers on the nature and make-up of British neo-Nazi groups.

Matthew Collins from the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight said this weekend that while the presence of neo-Nazis in Northern Ireland is exaggerated, there is a real threat that they could eventually fill a vacuum left by mainstream loyalists exiting the paramilitary scene.

"There is a danger of a new war to replace the old one," he told officers.

213 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:43pm

23 minutes late for beer!

214 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:48pm

re: #209 Killgore Trout

No thank you, I don't want that Muslim stamp on my letters. To use this stamp would be a slap in the face to all those AMERICANS who died at the hands of those whom this stamp honors


Then he climbed into his Mitsubishi and drove off in a huff.

215 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:50pm

re: #197 Enkidu90046

Monty was an excellent trainer and disciplinarian. He excelled at it, and the British Army desperately needed it. Discipline, however, doesn't make you popular with the troops. The best British General of WWII routed the Italians in North Africa. He might have beaten Rommel, but Churchill decided to defend Crete, and not to resupply him.

Any lizards know his name?

216 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:50pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Goldberg is also offended by those Darwin Fish bumper stickers.

Let him be, that stupid jerk.
Insulting Leonard Nimoy in that manner is just below wales feces.

217 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:23:56pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

23 minutes late for beer!

Heretic!

218 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:24:30pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

Goldberg is also offended by those Darwin Fish bumper stickers.

"There outta be a law!"

//

219 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:24:52pm

re: #205 John Neverbend

frankly i do find this 'pornographic' esp because it uses holy jewish objects i think Jonah goldberg is right and some in here need to say they are sorry.

220 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:25:29pm

re: #204 Enkidu90046

Monty fell FAR behind the time table laid out for Operation Overlord (D-Day). I cannot remember off hand how long it took him to take Caan, but it was far behind schedule. He was overly concerned with casualties and far too tentative (which made him, of all people, planning Market Garden so surprising).

Caen was a hard nit to crack. We diverted Eighth Air Force heavy B-17s to a tactical role to hit German strongpoints around it. Even flattening the landscape didn't really help. It was the one place in Normandy that the Germans weren't cut off behind their lines. like we did with sending Patton into north-central France around the hedgerows of Normandy which Bradley was also stuck in until we broke out at Saint Lo.. largely due to Patton drawing German forces back. (Falaise-Argentan gap) Patton actually wanted to go east to Paris and loop up and bag the whole German army in Northern France but Eisenhower overruled him.

221 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:25:34pm

re: #182 Gus 802

Why did he call Nimoy a pornographer?

In reviewing the latest Star Trek movie, Goldberg wrote briefly about Nimoy. Upon looking at his page he found some of Nimoy's full-bodied nudes, and linked to them in his post, and called Nimoy a soft-core pornographer.

I guess that makes Michaelangelo a hard core pornographer, given he sculpted men with detailed penises, no?

222 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:26:12pm

re: #196 Gus 802

Jonah Goldberg

This Goldberg guy is a (raise hands to face level and waggle all fingers while trilling the 'r' sound) frrreeek!

223 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:27:16pm
224 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:27:52pm

re: #220 DrNaughty

Ike made a couple of strategic mistakes, and not unleashing Patton in France was one of them. Leaving the Ardennes exposed was another. I forgive him! ;-)

225 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:27:58pm

re: #215 quickjustice

Monty was an excellent trainer and disciplinarian. He excelled at it, and the British Army desperately needed it. Discipline, however, doesn't make you popular with the troops. The best British General of WWII routed the Italians in North Africa. He might have beaten Rommel, but Churchill decided to defend Crete, and not to resupply him.

Any lizards know his name?

Wavell I think. British history isn't really my forte..

226 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:28:32pm

re: #221 freetoken

In reviewing the latest Star Trek movie, Goldberg wrote briefly about Nimoy. Upon looking at his page he found some of Nimoy's full-bodied nudes, and linked to them in his post, and called Nimoy a soft-core pornographer.

I guess that makes Michaelangelo a hard core pornographer, given he sculpted men with detailed penises, no?

It's not THAT it was soft core porn, it's WHAT the soft core porn depicted (see the link in 2050

227 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:28:32pm

I'm just using Goldberg as an example of what some people once thought were intellectual "conservatives" turning out to be just the same old thing...

They all have become General Ripper to me.

228 John Neverbend  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:28:36pm

re: #207 SixDegrees

That's OK. I'm offended by creationism/id, so the Universe remains in balance.

He wrote a fatuous article on the subject in NRO, to which the only sensible e-mail reply was this:

Mr. Goldberg,

I do not sport the Darwin fish on my bumper because I believe that Christians, or anyone else for that matter, are less evolved than I am. It is a protest against the “Intelligent design” movement and its anti- science message. It just so happens that the promoters of this foolish movement are universally fundamentalist Christians with a literal interpretation of the Bible who would love nothing more than to brainwash every child into denying the undeniable truth of Darwinian evolution. Since you don’t mention where you stand on the issue, I can only assume that you are a proponent of ID…or are you showing “courage without consequence”

As for abusing the sacred fish…you seem to have missed the fact that ours has legs. It’s a funny fish.

Lighten up, man.

229 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:28:46pm

In 2002, the Jew Leonard Nimoy published a book of photographs entitled “The Shekhina Project.” Jews say the Shekhina is the “feminine” aspect of God, and the photographs in Nimoy’s book are sensual, erotic images of women draped in veils traditionally used to signify a Jewess’s modesty, and/or in phylacteries, part of the religious attire of male Jews.

the photo's because they include holy jewish objects in this type of photo's is pornographic and offensive to me. Jonah Goldberg not off the wall calling this pornographic frankly I agree with him on this. they don't call it hollywird for nothing.

230 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:29:01pm

What a hoot it is to read the right wing blogs right now. I haven't found a single one who isn't screaming about Van Jones being a "Truther" -- despite the fact that there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE for this accusation, and he's denied it himself.

If there's one thing for sure about Truthers, it's that they do NOT deny they're Truthers. They're invariably proud of their little mental illness, and have no hesitation at all about announcing it to the world. Truthers are NOT stealthy.

We're seeing exactly the same kind of lock-step talking-point sync with the right wing blogosphere as we saw with the left during the Bush administration. They simply DO NOT CARE whether the accusation is true or even credible. It's a hammer.

Wingnut blog smash!

231 freetoken  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:29:24pm

re: #226 sattv4u2

Goldberg referred to the photos as soft core pornography. He is looney.

232 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:29:51pm
233 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:30:34pm

re: #231 freetoken

i will have to disagree with you i think he is right.

234 transient  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:30:58pm

re: #230 Charles

If there's one thing for sure about Truthers, it's that they do NOT deny they're Truthers. They're invariably proud of their little mental illness, and have no hesitation at all about announcing it to the world. Truthers are NOT stealthy.

If they kept silent, they would be part of The Conspiracy!
/

235 TheMatrix31  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:31:32pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Uh oh.

236 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:31:49pm

re: #224 quickjustice

Ike made a couple of strategic mistakes, and not unleashing Patton in France was one of them. Leaving the Ardennes exposed was another. I forgive him! ;-)

60 years . almost 70 years on it's easy to look at things and do the what if's. But remember that Ike made the decisions he made with the information he had (Including Ultra).. and in the end he made more good ones than bad ones and was victorious.. :)

And having the resources he had versus what the Nazis had was a big factor. By 1945, we were sending litterly thosands of B-17s and B-24s into germany daily destorying the industrial infastructure and oil reserves. Our P-51s had clearied the skies .. Also our Ninth Air Force was opening up the land in front of the ground forces. We were simply dominant on the battlefield..

237 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:32:18pm

re: #230 Charles

...and Glenn Beck is the hero of the story.

238 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:32:26pm

re: #225 DrNaughty

Excellent. That's an obscure fact.

[Link: www.historylearningsite.co.uk...]

"In 1939, Wavell was given the task of creating the Middle East Command which had the primary tasks of protecting the Suez Canal and the oil reserves in the region. Wavell's first enemy in the area was Italy led by Benito Mussolini. When Mussolini sent over 1 million men to North Africa in 1940, Wavell only had 36,000 men at his command. The Italians made major advances from Libya towards the Suez but stopped at the British defences at Mersa Matruh. In December 1940, Wavell ordered a major British counter-attack which was very successful - pushing the Italians back nearly 500 miles. In January 1941, Tobruk was captured from the Italians.

However, this success forced Hitler into sending the Afrika Korps to North Africa commanded by Erwin Rommel. By March 1941, Rommel was in a position to attack the British and he succeeded in pushing them out of Libya, though the British continued to hold out at Tobruk. Wavell attempted a counter-attack in June 1941, but it was halted by the Germans at Halfaya Pass. By now, Winston Churchill had lost confidence with Wavell and he was replaced by General Claude Auchinleck."

239 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:32:37pm

re: #227 freetoken

I'm just using Goldberg as an example of what some people once thought were intellectual "conservatives" turning out to be just the same old thing...

They all have become General Ripper to me.

Everybody has a price. It's sad that principles seem to be a commodity to some.

240 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:32:39pm
241 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:33:02pm

re: #235 TheMatrix31

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Uh oh.

Now it's started. ?
Right !

242 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:33:07pm

re: #215 quickjustice

I am guessing it was general Alexander.

243 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:33:52pm

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, I'm under the influenza, love
And I know there's no doubt about it
I'm under the influenza, love
And you know I'd rather be without it...

How about the new movie coming out?
Influenza the Cukoo's Nest

244 TheMatrix31  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:35:00pm

re: #241 callahan23

Now it's started. ?
Right !

Whether or not it's going to be a huge outbreak or whatever, I get worried going to class in winters. Too many unsanitary students spreading their crap around to whoever sharing the air. Disgusting. I load up on Vitamin C like crazy.

245 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:35:02pm

re: #173 freetoken

I agree. When Goldberg called Leonard Nimoy a "pornographer" it was a sign of how far down the intellectual ladder Goldberg has fallen.

This is the formula for every Pantload column now:

Dubious if not false assertion, lazy thinking, trite pop cultural reference, broad-ass conclusion.

Update 1: A reader writes...

JG: Walkback, backpedalling, waffling, claim that reader misunderstood him or some such (to cover the fact that he got something wrong.)

Update 2: Another reader writes...

JG: "Well this is a fascinating discussion but I don't have time right now to continue it, I wish i could, I'm late for a speaking engagement/plane to catch/Cheetos to eat" Insert Simpsons joke or Star Trek reference.

heh. You know it's true.

246 irish rose  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:35:42pm

Nice friends ya got there, Spencer.

247 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:36:08pm

re: #236 DrNaughty

From the Normandy invasion onward, air supremacy was the key to victory throughout. The U.S. owned the air over Europe after the invasion.

248 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:36:23pm

re: #242 Enkidu90046

I am guessing it was general Alexander.

Looks like I was wrong.

:(

249 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:37:04pm

re: #231 freetoken

Goldberg referred to the photos as soft core pornography. He is looney.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Goldbergs definition of porn, but have you seen the photos in question, and what Nimoy was trying to depict?
If you have seen any of them, would you feel comfortable with them being displayed in a grammar school? Sold in Target (or any other mass merchandise retailer)?

Also, I am not of the Jewish faith, but I can understand why it would upste one!

250 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:37:08pm

re: #244 TheMatrix31

Whether or not it's going to be a huge outbreak or whatever, I get worried going to class in winters. Too many unsanitary students spreading their crap around to whoever sharing the air. Disgusting. I load up on Vitamin C like crazy.

I am lecturing. So I am gonna get the vaccination as soon as it is available.

251 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:37:38pm

re: #245 iceweasel

Well this is a fascinating discussion but I don't have time right now

That seems to be popular these days.

252 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:38:16pm

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253 harpsicon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:39:31pm

re: #131 DrNaughty

The SS was a very complex organization. The Waffen-SS were front-line combat units that had different requirements than other parts of the organization. They generally received better and newer weapons than the normal German Army as well...

Hitler quite admired Islam; he considered it a religion for warriors. As opposed to the wussy Christianity which history foisted upon unfortunate Europeans...

254 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:39:39pm

re: #242 Enkidu90046

General Archibald Wavell was the most brilliant of all the British generals of WWII. He pushed back an Italian Army of one million men 500 miles with a force of only 36,000. The Italians were in desperate flight. You have to study the campaign to understand Wavell's tactical and strategic brilliance. The Italians thought they were outnumbered 10-1 throughout.

255 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:40:04pm

re: #252 HoosierHoops

Brilliant, {Hoops}.

256 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:40:23pm

OT ,, Does our "Zombie" know about this? Is she/ he getting royalties?

[Link: www.zombieland.com...]

257 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:00pm

re: #229 yochanan

In 2002, the Jew Leonard Nimoy published a book of photographs entitled “The Shekhina Project.” Jews say the Shekhina is the “feminine” aspect of God, and the photographs in Nimoy’s book are sensual, erotic images of women draped in veils traditionally used to signify a Jewess’s modesty, and/or in phylacteries, part of the religious attire of male Jews.

the photo's because they include holy jewish objects in this type of photo's is pornographic and offensive to me. Jonah Goldberg not off the wall calling this pornographic frankly I agree with him on this. they don't call it hollywird for nothing.

If the photos showed a nude woman wearing tefillin then it would be very offensive to religious Jews, but only pornographic if certain bits were displayed.

258 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:00pm

re: #247 quickjustice

From the Normandy invasion onward, air supremacy was the key to victory throughout. The U.S. owned the air over Europe after the invasion.

The invasion would not have been possible if we had not cleared the Luftwaffe from the skies. Actually it was Ninth Air Force that was the tactical arm that Bradley relied on for attacks on German strong points in France. That's where we used the B-26 Marauder units to hit strong points and the P-47 to hit armored columns on the roads and also hit locomotives.

The Germans had no air cover to speak of to support their ground forces in the west. What was left of the Luftwaffe was being used against the B-17s and B-24s attacking targets in Germany.

259 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:07pm

re: #252 HoosierHoops

You are such a liberal, Centrist, Right wing kiss ass.. (pick one)

I think there need to the an "all of the above" option for that one.

260 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:36pm

re: #254 quickjustice

I have to admit that I know very little of Wavell (or of the Italian campaigns in North Africa) but you have piqued my curiosity and now I want to read more about it.

261 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:43pm

re: #257 Alouette

If the photos showed a nude woman wearing tefillin then it would be very offensive to religious Jews, but only pornographic if certain bits were displayed.

"bits" are seen under sheer clothing.

262 TheMatrix31  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:41:51pm

I would love to flounce on Adriana Lima.

/not the LGF-style flounce.

263 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:42:08pm

re: #262 TheMatrix31

I would love to flounce on Adriana Lima.

/not the LGF-style flounce.

You mean pounce.

264 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:42:11pm

From Marc Cooper's blog, an interesting comment:

Charles Johnson is going to be drummed out of the rightwing blogosphere. I wouldn’t even be surprised if he pulls an Andrew Sullivan within the next year or two and breaks openly with his old comrades.

Well, it won't be like Andrew Sullivan, but it just might happen sooner than that.

The right wing is plunging into the abyss. Glenn Beck, militias, Ron Paul, the John Birch Society, anti-abortion fanatics who approve of murder, creationism ... none of these things seem to offend any of the people I used to consider friends.

265 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:42:35pm

re: #253 harpsicon

During the Normandy campaign, the SS units committed a notorious massacre of Canadian prisoners, for which the division commander later was tried as a war criminal.

266 TheMatrix31  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:42:56pm

re: #263 Alouette

You mean pounce.

Yeah I do, lol. Disregard that post!

267 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:43:54pm

re: #231 freetoken

Goldberg referred to the photos as soft core pornography. He is looney.

Completely.
I know people say that the left is juvenile, especially the online left-- and I'll be the first to say it's true! But i love what we've done to the Amazon tags for Liberal Fascism. Some of my favourites:

wingnut welfare(396)
propaganda(313)
editor promised cake(228)

books written while high on cheeto dust(67)
ein volk ein reich ein bag von cheetos(40)
poor catnip substitute (5)
100 percent fact free (4)
cheetohesque (4)
dialectic of cheetohlightenment (4)
doesnt know what fascism is (4)
fiction (4)

how not to design a book cover (4)

not soft enough to be toilet paper (4)
oxymoron (4)

the stupid it burns (4)

1 star because zero stars isnt an option (3)

all your wingnuts are belong to us (3)

268 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:43:59pm

re: #257 Alouette

i found them to be very offensive, and my reaction like a certain judges you know it when you see it.

269 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:44:29pm

re: #265 quickjustice

Was that Operation Overlord or the earlier raid on Diep?

270 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:44:38pm

re: #264 Charles

From Marc Cooper's blog, an interesting comment:

Well, it won't be like Andrew Sullivan, but it just might happen sooner than that.

"If you gotta go... go with a smile." - Joker, Batman

271 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:44:44pm

re: #265 quickjustice

During the Normandy campaign, the SS units committed a notorious massacre of Canadian prisoners, for which the division commander later was tried as a war criminal.

Also the Malmedy massacre in Belgium...

272 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:45:08pm

re: #254 quickjustice

Wavell did a great job in North Africa too, although Monty was given credit for the final victory in that theater.

273 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:45:55pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Good. Freaking. Grief.

And people think I should be onboard with THAT?

274 jhrhv  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:46:26pm

Charles, That moronic convergence you were talking about seems to be kicking into overdrive. All morons everywhere are converging into one great blob of uber stupid.

It seems like the days of good peoples coming together to achieve a common good have fallen on some pretty dark days.

275 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:46:29pm

re: #229 yochanan

In 2002, the Jew Leonard Nimoy published a book of photographs entitled “The Shekhina Project.” Jews say the Shekhina is the “feminine” aspect of God, and the photographs in Nimoy’s book are sensual, erotic images of women draped in veils traditionally used to signify a Jewess’s modesty, and/or in phylacteries, part of the religious attire of male Jews.

the photo's because they include holy jewish objects in this type of photo's is pornographic and offensive to me. Jonah Goldberg not off the wall calling this pornographic frankly I agree with him on this. they don't call it hollywird for nothing.

Link?

276 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:46:56pm

re: #267 iceweasel

Dang. Can't link to the tags.

Here's the book, scroll down:

277 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:47:18pm

re: #229 yochanan

In 2002, the Jew Leonard Nimoy published a book of photographs entitled “The Shekhina Project.” Jews say the Shekhina is the “feminine” aspect of God, and the photographs in Nimoy’s book are sensual, erotic images of women draped in veils traditionally used to signify a Jewess’s modesty, and/or in phylacteries, part of the religious attire of male Jews.

the photo's because they include holy jewish objects in this type of photo's is pornographic and offensive to me. Jonah Goldberg not off the wall calling this pornographic frankly I agree with him on this. they don't call it hollywird for nothing.

Artistic freedom is not regulated by religious principles in the United States -- this is not a theocracy. This may only apply to public funded art. Jonah is free to complain but it's pointless and not based on law. It is merely an opinion. Freedom to not be offended is not a right.

278 irish rose  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:47:45pm

re: #244 TheMatrix31

Whether or not it's going to be a huge outbreak or whatever, I get worried going to class in winters. Too many unsanitary students spreading their crap around to whoever sharing the air. Disgusting. I load up on Vitamin C like crazy.

My health requires that I get flu shots every year and a pneumococcal vaccination every few years. I'm getting ready to go back to college, and I've made the decision to take the bulk of my classes online so that I can avoid exposure.

My daughter attends traditional classes at our local CC and I'm urging her to get the swine flu vaccine too, as soon as it becomes available.

279 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:48:13pm

re: #272 Kenneth

Wavell did a great job in North Africa too, although Monty was given credit for the final victory in that theater.

(*grumble* ... and I'll KEEP sayin' it here ...)

A huge part of the context for Monty's success in NA was due to Malta.

Only when the Axis forces were pushed into Tunisia could Malta's sea and air power be bypassed.

280 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:48:44pm

re: #205 John Neverbend

or maybe this: Shekhina

racer x the link is via skekhina

281 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:49:23pm

re: #273 Charles

They are really active in the Tea Party scene, there are a few videos of them at various Tea Parties addressing the crowd and taking their oath. I have to wonder what the "normal" people think when they see that. The crowd seems to love it though.

282 TheMatrix31  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:50:03pm

re: #278 irish rose

My health requires that I get flu shots every year and a pneumococcal vaccination every few years. I'm getting ready to go back to college, and I've made the decision to take the bulk of my classes online so that I can avoid exposure.

My daughter attends traditional classes at our local CC and I'm urging her to get the swine flu vaccine too, as soon as it becomes available.

I wish UCLA offered online classes :-/

283 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:50:24pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Artistic freedom is not regulated by religious principles in the United States -- this is not a theocracy. This may only apply to public funded art. Jonah is free to complain but it's pointless and not based on law. It is merely an opinion. Freedom to not be offended is not a right.

I don;t beleive Goldberg called for Nimoys art to be banned nor for Leonard to be arrested. He stated that he (Goldberg) beleived it was pornographic due to HIS (and others of the faith ) sensibilities and faith

284 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:50:35pm

now i looked down at the site and that is also very bad of the anti semitic varity but nimoy photo's are also offensive to me too.

285 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:50:39pm

re: #264 Charles

It's mostly about the vacuum in leadership in the GOP. These right-wing extremist and kook groups are energized by the vacuum, and are scrambling to fill it. I personally think that the libertarians, sans Ron Paul, may be able to derive a new political philosophy based upon shrinking government, particularly since much of our current economic and governmental crisis is driven by the impending bankruptcies of the social programs of the New Deal and the Great Society. They're all Ponzi schemes gone bust.

We're wasting our energy to try to prop them up. We should be trying to replace them with something that's sustainable and grassroots.

286 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:50:56pm

Koskidz have a nice collection of secessionist videos...
Videos Secessionists in search of freedom

Nothing terribly interesting but there sure are a lot of them.

287 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:52:36pm

re: #268 yochanan

i found them to be very offensive, and my reaction like a certain judges you know it when you see it.

It's being offensive to you doesn't make it pornography.

288 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:52:53pm

re: #269 Enkidu90046

Overlord. The Dieppe raid was a massacre of Canadian soldiers because of poor intelligence, planning, and execution, not because of war crimes.

289 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:53:22pm

calling something soft core porn isn't the same thing as saying it should be banned

nice strawman you have created.

290 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:54:21pm

re: #279 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(*grumble* ... and I'll KEEP sayin' it here ...)

A huge part of the context for Monty's success in NA was due to Malta.

Only when the Axis forces were pushed into Tunisia could Malta's sea and air power be bypassed.

One of the lesser-known facts about the Western Desert campaign is that the United States had several Fighter and Fighter Bomber groups attached to the RAF Desert Air Force after El Alemein. We actually had air force units in Egypt and British Palestine in 1942.. were being sent to China through the middle east and india to pull another Doolittle type attack on Japan but when the Burma Road was cut it was decided to use the units in the Western Desert Campaign against Rommel.

291 irish rose  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:55:40pm

re: #107 Charles

Meanwhile, Glenn Beck has released a gloating statement about Van Jones at his website, to which I won't link.


Thank you, I just had dinner and don't want it to come back up.

292 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:55:44pm

That link is not like any train I have ever seen before. It is completely off the rails yet the engineer thinks everything is great!

From the link: "In 1997, after Ellen Degeneres came out as a lesbian on her TV sitcom, Mawyer accused her of “DUMPING HER FILTHY LESBIAN LIFESTYLE RIGHT IN THE CENTER OF YOUR LIVING ROOM!! …"

Dad had a rule, and he enforced it: You make a mess, you clean it up, pronto! Mr. Mawyer, clean up your mess!

293 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:55:53pm

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Looking at that vieo you linked up at 127 reminded me of some of the points from this earlier LGF post on Robert Paxton's list of markers for fascism


- a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;

- the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

294 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:01pm

video

295 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:33pm

re: #264 Charles

From Marc Cooper's blog, an interesting comment:

Well, it won't be like Andrew Sullivan, but it just might happen sooner than that.

The right wing is plunging into the abyss. Glenn Beck, militias, Ron Paul, the John Birch Society, anti-abortion fanatics who approve of murder, creationism ... none of these things seem to offend any of the people I used to consider friends.

To be perfectly honest, Charles- I have to wonder how many of those people ever considered you their friend as opposed to a dupe. I think they grossly misjudged you, and thought you would continue to go along blindly and unthinkingly with their agenda. Your big crime was independent thinking and an unwillingness to sell out your principles. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

296 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:38pm

re: #257 Alouette

Sexual modesty is an important aspect of Orthodox Judaism as well as Christianity. Anything that challenges that principle will offend Orthodox Jews and Christians.

297 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:39pm

re: #287 Jimmah

It's being offensive to you doesn't make it pornography.

The converse is also true

298 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:49pm

re: #292 SteveC

That link is not like any train I have ever seen before. It is completely off the rails yet the engineer thinks everything is great!

From the link: "In 1997, after Ellen Degeneres came out as a lesbian on her TV sitcom, Mawyer accused her of “DUMPING HER FILTHY LESBIAN LIFESTYLE RIGHT IN THE CENTER OF YOUR LIVING ROOM!! …"

Dad had a rule, and he enforced it: You make a mess, you clean it up, pronto! Mr. Mawyer, clean up your mess!

Robert Spencer's new pals, the Christian Action Network.

299 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:56:56pm

re: #283 sattv4u2

I don;t beleive Goldberg called for Nimoys art to be banned nor for Leonard to be arrested. He stated that he (Goldberg) beleived it was pornographic due to HIS (and others of the faith ) sensibilities and faith

Understood. I guess to be fair he did call it "soft-porn." That piece is mostly done to criticize Leonard Nimoy and some nonsense about "creeping Obamaism annoyed me greatly." Just another one of Goldberg's conspiracy vehicles.

300 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:59:14pm

re: #274 jhrhv

Charles, That moronic convergence you were talking about seems to be kicking into overdrive. All morons everywhere are converging into one great blob of uber stupid.

It's the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants! I hear a giant Slor!

301 callahan23  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 5:59:58pm

It has been informative and fun to be with y'all.
Yet it is late in this land.
- - -
Gals 'n guys, Lizards and 'menschen'.
See y'all down the road.
I love you {Lizardim) - mostly. Really!

302 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:00:06pm

re: #287 Jimmah

It's being offensive to you doesn't make it pornography.

Exactly. Obscenity itself is notoriously hard to define, and for something to be pornography you generally have to establish that it has no artistic content or literary merit, and that its sole purpose is a purely prurient one.

But 'pornographer' or 'pornography' is a smear often applied to artists of one sort or another simply to mean "stuff I don't like".

303 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:00:18pm

Ok 9pm here and Mrs Naughty is demanding my presence. Take care everyone enjoyed as always

304 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:00:19pm

re: #301 callahan23

It has been informative and fun to be with y'all.
Yet it is late in this land.
- - -
Gals 'n guys, Lizards and 'menschen'.
See y'all down the road.
I love you {Lizardim) - mostly. Really!

Later Callahan.

305 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:00:28pm

re: #215 quickjustice

Monty was an excellent trainer and disciplinarian. He excelled at it, and the British Army desperately needed it. Discipline, however, doesn't make you popular with the troops. The best British General of WWII routed the Italians in North Africa. He might have beaten Rommel, but Churchill decided to defend Crete, and not to resupply him.

Any lizards know his name?

Auchinleck?

306 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:01:00pm

Anyone want an Ice Cream Sandwich?

307 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:01:30pm

van jones is a creep and since he was on the gov't dime he bothered me more than beck who is on fox's dime and i am not forced to pay a part of that dime.

so i am happy he is gone off the gov't dime.

now if nimoy would do the same with islam holy objects (don't think he or any of hollywird would do that though)

308 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:02:03pm

re: #305 Flyers1974

Obviously late on that one.

309 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:02:10pm

re: #268 yochanan

i found them to be very offensive, and my reaction like a certain judges you know it when you see it.

I have not seen the collection, and do not plan to. Is it more offensive than "religious" elements that Madonna includes in her concerts?

310 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:02:12pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

Anyone want an Ice Cream Sandwich?

Dad-gummit, my weight is up, I'm eating lifesavers down here! :(

311 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:02:51pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

Anyone want an Ice Cream Sandwich?

Ya know, I used to be a Fudgsicle junkie.

312 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:02:55pm

re: #279 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Good point. The early going battles in NA, Mediterranean & Southern Europe are fascinating for the intricate movements of forces, gambits and moves. Like a chess game, setting up positions for the big play. The battle for Malta was brutal... that small island was turned to rubble.

313 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:03:38pm

re: #264 Charles

From Marc Cooper's blog, an interesting comment:

Well, it won't be like Andrew Sullivan, but it just might happen sooner than that.

The right wing is plunging into the abyss. Glenn Beck, militias, Ron Paul, the John Birch Society, anti-abortion fanatics who approve of murder, creationism ... none of these things seem to offend any of the people I used to consider friends.

It would be kind of nice to have a true Center blogosphere. Even if it were only one or two. A blogospherule?

314 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:03:50pm

re: #311 Racer X

Ya know, I used to be a Fudgsicle junkie.

I did not know that!

315 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:04:11pm

re: #293 jaunte

Very interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

316 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:04:44pm

re: #313 Coracle

It would be kind of nice to have a true Center blogosphere. Even if it were only one or two. A blogospherule?

This place is as close as I've seen. Both the loons on the right and left get scorched.

317 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:05:16pm

re: #302 iceweasel

Exactly. Obscenity itself is notoriously hard to define, and for something to be pornography you generally have to establish that it has no artistic content or literary merit, and that its sole purpose is a purely prurient one.

But 'pornographer' or 'pornography' is a smear often applied to artists of one sort or another simply to mean "stuff I don't like".

Yep - and has probably been applied to just about every artist who ever depicted a nude at some time.

318 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:06:28pm

Tonight's dinner is going to be...
Narita Teriyaki Salmon Soba Soup

I've never made proper dashi (broth) from scratch before but I finally bought some kelp today.

319 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #287 Jimmah

It's being offensive to you doesn't make it pornography.

Define pornography. The SCOTUS doesn't even have a real definition of it. Porn is really in the eye of the beholder. Playboy photographs are commonly considered porn, but they show just as must as ancient statues which are not considered porn.

320 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:06:44pm

re: #302 iceweasel

There are "artists" who go for the spectacle and the shock value, as opposed to the old-fashioned notions of truth and beauty. The "Piss Christ" controversy, devised by the Brooklyn Museum to drive sales, was an example. The museum trustees well knew that the piece would offend Christians, but calculated it would drive sales. Nimoy's "art" is of a piece with that. You'll seldom see art calculated to offend Muslims, because the artists who do shock art are afraid of getting beheaded by outraged Muslims. In other words, they're physical and moral cowards who prey on those of whom they're not afraid.

I personally think "art" largely has been replaced with "spectacle".

321 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:07:02pm

re: #252 HoosierHoops

As a full service Blog.. Charles should allow Flounce templates..
Why wait till 2:30am to dump?
Flounce template
___
I want to flounce (enter time here in 24 hours sequence)
I want to Flounce (enter reason here)
Charles you are so mean
(enter reasons here..Up to 4 gripes)
Please delete my account because I can't help myself...I keep coming back here..
( List sock puppets)
You are such a liberal, Centrist, Right wing kiss ass.. (pick one)
I am appalled, Disgusted, Drunk (pick one)
I can't take it any more...(wait for it)
You are so mean (wait for it)
I gotta go! Bye now..
___
( official flounce template)
Please send to the contact page...
Thank you for Visiting LGF...

LMAO!

322 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:07:24pm

Nimoy`s photos are not porn. They`re beautiful, if not all that imaginative or unique. Nice pretty stuff. Porn involves a base exploitative approach, directed only at lust. Nimoy aims higher, and achieves it, in a pleasant enough style.

323 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:07:28pm

re: #305 Flyers1974

Archibald Wavell.

324 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:07:33pm

re: #317 Jimmah

Yep - and has probably been applied to just about every artist who ever depicted a nude at some time.

I think you may be missing the point. Goldbergs larger issue is NOT with the "nudity", per se, but rather

The pictures proved controversial in the Jewish community, and while some Jews objected to the nudity, others were offended by a “sacrilegious” use of a woman’s veil and male Jewish religious attire. Indeed if Jehovah’s Shekhinah or the glory of God (i.e., the Divine presence in the form of a cloudy or fiery pillar and sometimes accompanied by a voice in the sanctuary of God) is to be construed as the equivalent of the Spirit of God, it could be argued that Nimoy’s use of the veil and phylacteries in his erotic and sensual photography is a Jewish version of the New Testament’s “blashphemy of the Holy Ghost”, which has never forgiveness, neither in this world, nor in the world to come (Matt. 12.31-32).

[Link: jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com...]

325 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:07:37pm

re: #317 Jimmah

Yep - and has probably been applied to just about every artist who ever depicted a nude at some time.

Old, familiar joke: You know, they don't have any pornography at (sports arch rival). They don't have a pornograph.

326 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #322 Kenneth

see 324

327 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:08:14pm

re: #309 Alouette

I have not seen the collection, and do not plan to. Is it more offensive than "religious" elements that Madonna includes in her concerts?

No, it's basically a black and white photo collection. Mostly nude shots with a linen cloth as a prop. The same as one would see in a figure drawing class. You can see it here:

[Link: www.leonardnimoyphotography.com...]

328 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:08:43pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

Tonight's dinner is going to be...
Narita Teriyaki Salmon Soba Soup

I've never made proper dashi (broth) from scratch before but I finally bought some kelp today.

Hopefully it will be good enough talapia up!

329 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:08:50pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

That's actually a really good food blog. Check out the other posts.

330 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:09:24pm

*Sigh*, They Grow Up So Slow…
PAINTBALL FIELD %P% DES MOINES, IA, USA
(A customer slams open the door to our indoor paintball field and storms in, shouting.)

Customer: “Where’s the manager?!”

Me: “Ma’am, I’m the owner. What is the problem?”

Customer: “I saw on your web site that you require a parental consent for kids to play at your field. Well, I never signed one, and my son said he’d been playing paintball here. He has bumps and bruises all over him, and I NEVER signed a consent form!”

Me: “I’m sorry, ma’am. He must have forged your name or had another adult sign for him. What’s his name? I’ll find the consent form.”

Customer: “His name is ***.”

(I find his form and show it to her.)

Me: “Is this your son’s form?”

Customer: “Yes! See, I never signed it!”

Me: “Ma’am, your son is 27 years old. Only children are required to have a parent’s signature to play.”

Customer: “But he is a child! He’s my child!”

Me: “I’m sorry, let me rephrase that. Only children under the age of 18 need to have a parent’s signature to play. Since your son is 27, he can sign for himself that he understands all of the risks involved.”

Customer: “This is insane! He could get his eye shot out, or be knocked out, or killed! This is illegal! I’m calling the police!”

331 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:09:45pm

re: #312 Kenneth

Good point. The early going battles in NA, Mediterranean & Southern Europe are fascinating for the intricate movements of forces, gambits and moves. Like a chess game, setting up positions for the big play. The battle for Malta was brutal... that small island was turned to rubble.

The issue of interdiction of Italian convoys (after Malta was heavily reinforced) is usually over shadowed by "generalship" in discussions - a tribute to Rommel. The RN had one (or was it two) light cruisers equipped with radar operating out of Malta at the time of el Alamein. The Italian heavy ships couldn't put to sea because of a lack of fuel (dependent upon Germany for it, which was focused upon supplying the Russian Front.)

And so forth -- it's complex.

332 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #317 Jimmah

Yep - and has probably been applied to just about every artist who ever depicted a nude at some time.

I always regretted not being Artistic...I mean who doesn't want to draw naked girls in College? It's not fair that some of us can only draw stick figures.
It's just not fair...LOL

333 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:10:02pm

re: #318 Killgore Trout

Tonight's dinner is going to be...
Narita Teriyaki Salmon Soba Soup

I've never made proper dashi (broth) from scratch before but I finally bought some kelp today.

BOUGHT it??? I thought you lived by the ocean (Pac North West, no?

Just go down to the beach and grab some!

334 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:10:03pm

re: #322 Kenneth

Nimoy`s photos are not porn. They`re beautiful, if not all that imaginative or unique. Nice pretty stuff. Porn involves a base exploitative approach, directed only at lust. Nimoy aims higher, and achieves it, in a pleasant enough style.

That they may be, but one man's porn is another's art, and vice versa. A real hard definition of what is and is not porn has been notoriously hard to pin down. The lines get very blurred with soft core porn and nude art.

335 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:10:12pm

re: #320 quickjustice

that was offenisve to me for two reasons, the subject as well as that it was funded by the NEA

frankly shock art just shows the lack of taste of the so called artist

by the way i have a M.F.A. dreck is still dreck

336 bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:10:52pm

re: #320 quickjustice

There are "artists" who go for the spectacle and the shock value, as opposed to the old-fashioned notions of truth and beauty. The "Piss Christ" controversy, devised by the Brooklyn Museum to drive sales, was an example. The museum trustees well knew that the piece would offend Christians, but calculated it would drive sales. Nimoy's "art" is of a piece with that. You'll seldom see art calculated to offend Muslims, because the artists who do shock art are afraid of getting beheaded by outraged Muslims. In other words, they're physical and moral cowards who prey on those of whom they're not afraid.

I personally think "art" largely has been replaced with "spectacle".

Art has always contained "spectacle". It's only because of changing values and desensitization that we look at scandalous art of the past as having been no big deal. But it has shocked and will continue to do so.

337 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:11:11pm

re: #330 Racer X

I hope that's parody.

338 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:11:12pm

re: #324 sattv4u2

I think you may be missing the point. Goldbergs larger issue is NOT with the "nudity", per se, but rather

The pictures proved controversial in the Jewish community, and while some Jews objected to the nudity, others were offended by a “sacrilegious” use of a woman’s veil and male Jewish religious attire. Indeed if Jehovah’s Shekhinah or the glory of God (i.e., the Divine presence in the form of a cloudy or fiery pillar and sometimes accompanied by a voice in the sanctuary of God) is to be construed as the equivalent of the Spirit of God, it could be argued that Nimoy’s use of the veil and phylacteries in his erotic and sensual photography is a Jewish version of the New Testament’s “blashphemy of the Holy Ghost”, which has never forgiveness, neither in this world, nor in the world to come (Matt. 12.31-32).

[Link: jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com...]

Did you read some of the garbage in that article? Like this:

It’s now widely known that Jews of the baser sort of predominantly Eastern European ethnic extraction have dominated and controlled Hollywood and the movie industry in America in general from its inception – see this article.

It’s also widely known that much of the depraved content of Hollywood’s movies has either been used by Jews to downgrade and defile the traditional Christian social mores in Gentile nations and/or to protray and celebrate the way paranoid, judicially blinded Jews on the run from God have viewed the world in Dispersion under the wrath of God since the Crucifixion.

339 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:11:14pm

re: #320 quickjustice

There are "artists" who go for the spectacle and the shock value, as opposed to the old-fashioned notions of truth and beauty. The "Piss Christ" controversy, devised by the Brooklyn Museum to drive sales, was an example. The museum trustees well knew that the piece would offend Christians, but calculated it would drive sales. Nimoy's "art" is of a piece with that. You'll seldom see art calculated to offend Muslims, because the artists who do shock art are afraid of getting beheaded by outraged Muslims. In other words, they're physical and moral cowards who prey on those of whom they're not afraid.

I personally think "art" largely has been replaced with "spectacle".

Or it could be as simple as this: If you are a US artist and want to mock religion for principle or profit, which religion would be most obvious, based on numbers alone?

340 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:12:10pm

re: #332 HoosierHoops

Based upon the experiences of my artist friends, male artists definitely get women! ;-)

341 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:12:14pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Yup. So that means that some Jews should not be offended? There are some here today that are!

342 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:12:25pm

re: #324 sattv4u2

I think you may be missing the point. Goldbergs larger issue is NOT with the "nudity", per se, but rather

[Link: jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com...]

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

343 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:12:31pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

I'm still living a few hours away from the coast. Hoping to move next year.

344 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:12:51pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

I did ,, please see 341

345 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:13:10pm

re: #327 Gus 802

No, it's basically a black and white photo collection. Mostly nude shots with a linen cloth as a prop. The same as one would see in a figure drawing class. You can see it here:

[Link: www.leonardnimoyphotography.com...]

OK, I'm looking at "The Full Body Project".
Kudos to Nimoy... some bold, cutting edge work there.

346 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:13:20pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

I'm still living a few hours away from the coast. Hoping to move next year.

K ,,, thought you were already there

Proceed!

//

347 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:13:21pm

re: #323 quickjustice

Archibald Wavell.

Right. Now that I think about it, wasn't Auchinaleck canned or transferred?

348 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:13:39pm

re: #326 sattv4u2

A fair point. Not porn, but possibly sacrilegious for some viewers.

IMO, if one is not intending to offend (ie piss Christ), but instead attempting to depict the divine in human sexuality, then it is not sacrilegious, and not porn.

The song of songs, which is Solomon's.

Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.

Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name is as ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

349 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:13:47pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

Wow- what a cesspit on the side bar.

350 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:14:01pm

re: #324 sattv4u2

I think you may be missing the point. Goldbergs larger issue is NOT with the "nudity", per se, but rather

The pictures proved controversial in the Jewish community, and while some Jews objected to the nudity, others were offended by a “sacrilegious” use of a woman’s veil and male Jewish religious attire. Indeed if Jehovah’s Shekhinah or the glory of God (i.e., the Divine presence in the form of a cloudy or fiery pillar and sometimes accompanied by a voice in the sanctuary of God) is to be construed as the equivalent of the Spirit of God, it could be argued that Nimoy’s use of the veil and phylacteries in his erotic and sensual photography is a Jewish version of the New Testament’s “blashphemy of the Holy Ghost”, which has never forgiveness, neither in this world, nor in the world to come (Matt. 12.31-32).

[Link: jewsribsinbearjaw.wordpress.com...]

I read that when it was first posted here and laughed. I think you are missing the point, very much! Whatever the definition of pornography, it has nothing to do with offending someone's religious sensibilities. If it were, then just about the entire canon of western art, with it's licencious and religiously offensive depiction of living things (gasp!) would be pornography.

351 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:14:07pm

nimoy can kush n tockas. liberal hollywird jews using holy jewish object to get there jollies
f''' um.

would these idiots do the same thing to islamic objects.?

352 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:14:12pm

re: #338 Gus 802

It’s also widely known that much of the depraved content of Hollywood’s movies has either been used by Jews to downgrade and defile the traditional Christian social mores in Gentile nations and/or to protray and celebrate the way paranoid, judicially blinded Jews on the run from God have viewed the world in Dispersion under the wrath of God since the Crucifixion.

And what really stinks is that I saw that movie in IMAX.

353 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:14:40pm
354 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:15:40pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

Who runs that site? That's like an kookspiracy anti-Semitic website.

355 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:15:42pm

re: #338 Gus 802

Blame the Jews! Where have I heard that before . . . ?

356 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:15:55pm

re: #295 Sharmuta

Your big crime was independent thinking and an unwillingness to sell out your principles.

Absolutely true. But look what's happening. Traffic here is going up. That's because LGF is one of the few (if not the only) sane place(s) on the centre or right. The moronsphere is in total meltdown mode and has been for months.

And people are noticing. Not only are the sane independents, moderates, centrists, and right coming here-- people on the left have been noticing too. Dave Weigel at the Washington Independent (I LOVE him) did a great piece on LGF and the break with VB and the shrieking harpy. Someone at the Daily Beast did a piece on how Charles was one of the few willing to call out Glenn Beck.
And the science blogs have noted for a long time that LGF was reporting on the creationists and taking an uncompromising pro-science stance.

And Ace o'Spades has long been despised by the progblogs and the leftblogs for his rampant misogyny and homophobia and the cesspit of his comments. So people will notice that too and it's only going to bring more people here.

My point is that LGF and Charles are increasingly becoming known for the willingness to take stances which are unpopular in the moronosphere, regardless of the attacks he'll receive. And for every Beck fan or Ace o Spades reader that has a meltdown here or gets banned, LGF is picking up ten more readers from all across the spectrum. I'm sure of it. People I know who would never look at LGF and had some confused idea about what it was about are coming here now. That's only going to increase.
As it should!

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:16:02pm

re: #41 tradewind

Oh, there aren't any muslims in the UK. They're all Asians.

Asian is an ethnic designation. Islam is a religion.

358 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:17:06pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

I wonder if it links to David Icke.

359 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:17:09pm

re: #353 buzzsawmonkey

Kelp?
It needs some body
Kelp?
Before you serve anybody
Kelp?
At least the broth is done
Kelp!

When I was younger so much younger than today
I never needed anyone to stir the kelp today...

360 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:17:26pm

re: #355 quickjustice

Blame the Jews! Where have I heard that before . . . ?

Pat Buchanan and his cohorts. I just noticed the text in that article. Damn, I back tracked to the front page and boom!

361 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:17:53pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

*chortle, bite tongue, draw deep breath, post comment*
From down in the text:

... in their deranged state, as alienated from God by their rejection and militant opposition to ...

*snort, guffaw, upchuck supper*

362 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:17:59pm

re: #354 Gus 802

Who runs that site? That's like an kookspiracy anti-Semitic website.

Yech. Clean out your cookies, quick.

363 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:18:24pm

re: #331 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes! Great history there. A family member served under Monty & is buried in El Alamein.

364 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:18:37pm
365 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:18:56pm

I'm LMAO here.

Porn / not porn. Hahahahaha!

366 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:19:21pm

re: #362 jaunte

Yech. Clean out your cookies, quick.

Brain bleach!

//

367 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:19:43pm

re: #347 Flyers1974

First Aukinleck, then Wavell were canned.

368 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #356 iceweasel

And for every Beck fan or Ace o Spades reader that has a meltdown here or gets banned, LGF is picking up ten more readers from all across the spectrum.

This is what's known as being "drummed out" of the moronosphere.

369 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:19:47pm

re: #347 Flyers1974

No. Auchenleck (sp) replaced Wavell, because Churchill was unhappy Wavell couldn't sustain the pace against Rommel without being resupplied and reinforced.

370 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:19:55pm

re: #342 Charles

Wow. I think you need to take a closer look at that website, man.

WOW. Some people need to check their sources just a tiny bit more carefully methinks.

371 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:06pm

two issues nimoy's photo's and the web site i did not read the web sit if i had i would not have linked it i would have found another one to the pics. the pics still offend me sept issue that they give fodder to anti semites is a sept issue. extreme secularist like showing there religous bigotry the artist who did 'piss christ' did it and nimoy does it here. frankly that some in here don't get it is a problem.

I am not a frumie but i am proud of being a jew

372 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:17pm

re: #347 Flyers1974

Right. Now that I think about it, wasn't Auchinaleck canned or transferred?

Yes. Auchinleck was relieved after being defeated by Rommel at the Battle of Gazala in May/June 1942. While he did stop Rommel at the First Battle of El Alamein, Winston Churchill believed that a new commander was needed to take on Rommel.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:19pm

re: #77 NelsFree

The methods of Islamic Da'wa (outreach) are varied. They have a goal of united the entire planet into one Ummah, ruled by Sharia. What reason have they to stop? Historically, only force has stopped the advance of Islam. Tours, Poitiers, Vienna, WW2...

Yes, World War Two, that well-known assault of Islam on the civilized world.

///

374 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:20pm

re: #365 Racer X

I'm LMAO here.

Porn / not porn. Hahahahaha!

It has something to do with Fudgsicles !

375 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:30pm

re: #356 iceweasel

Absolutely true. But look what's happening. Traffic here is going up. That's because LGF is one of the few (if not the only) sane place(s) on the centre or right. The moronsphere is in total meltdown mode and has been for months.

And people are noticing. Not only are the sane independents, moderates, centrists, and right coming here-- people on the left have been noticing too. Dave Weigel at the Washington Independent (I LOVE him) did a great piece on LGF and the break with VB and the shrieking harpy. Someone at the Daily Beast did a piece on how Charles was one of the few willing to call out Glenn Beck.
And the science blogs have noted for a long time that LGF was reporting on the creationists and taking an uncompromising pro-science stance.

I think there is a wide swath of the middle that is starving for a principled venue they can agree with. They're finding that in LGF, and they're coming back for more. There are a number of registered Lizards as of late that are very bright and well reasoned. I think it's because of the audience LGF is now gaining from a reputation for sanity bridging a number of divides.

Keep up the great work, Charles.

376 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:20:39pm

re: #363 Kenneth

Yes! Great history there. A family member served under Monty & is buried in El Alamein.

Wow!
*salute*

377 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:21:26pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

Asian is an ethnic designation. Islam is a religion.

Asian is not ethnic, it`s geographic. Asia extends from Turkey to Korea, to peoples with no ethnic commonality.

378 bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:21:54pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

I think there is a wide swath of the middle that is starving for a principled venue they can agree with. They're finding that in LGF, and they're coming back for more. There are a number of registered Lizards as of late that are very bright and well reasoned. I think it's because of the audience LGF is now gaining from a reputation for sanity bridging a number of divides.

Keep up the great work, Charles.

Well said.

379 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:22:43pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

Bravo

380 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:22:58pm

re: #317 Jimmah

Yep - and has probably been applied to just about every artist who ever depicted a nude at some time.

Not only that. Literary works as well. Obscenity trials for James Joyce, Henry Miller, others too. DH Lawrence, I think...many.

381 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:23:02pm

re: #159 tradewind

I think this could have all been avoided if they hadn't stuck the Lesson Plan in there.
That's what raised some parent hackles. Right or wrong, silly or not, it smacked too much of indoctrination, the old ' teaching to the test ', NEA-run education thing.

Reagan asked the kids to write him letters, but that was pre internet.

382 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:23:24pm

re: #378 bloodnok

Thanks, {Nok}.

For you:

Youtube Video
383 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:23:25pm

re: #367 Kenneth

First Aukinleck, then Wavell were canned.

Reverse the order.
Monty replaced Auchinleck.

(in a sense, Wavell got blindsided by Rommel's innovative tactics.)

384 koedo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:23:28pm

So, what legitimate groups in England (or Europe) are opposing the Islamists?

Just asking.

385 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:23:32pm

re: #377 Kenneth

Asian is not ethnic, it`s geographic. Asia extends from Turkey to Korea, to peoples with no ethnic commonality.

Even the Caucasians are Asians.

386 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:24:10pm
387 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:24:21pm

re: #371 yochanan

two issues nimoy's photo's and the web site i did not read the web sit if i had i would not have linked it i would have found another one to the pics. the pics still offend me sept issue that they give fodder to anti semites is a sept issue. extreme secularist like showing there religous bigotry the artist who did 'piss christ' did it and nimoy does it here. frankly that some in here don't get it is a problem.

I am not a frumie but i am proud of being a jew

No problem. Honest mistake. At first I just looked at the images and didn't read anything. It wasn't until I went back and started reading it did I notice.

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:24:22pm

re: #92 NelsFree

You may not be aware that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Adolf Hitler to help remove Jews to concentration camps. There was also an all-Muslim regiment of Nazi Soldiers (SS?) that operated in the Balkans.

Oh, for Chrissakes. There were also Indian Muslims serving in the British Army. Trying to portray Islam as an aggressor in the Second World War because some Muslim leaders allied with Hitler is disingenous and silly.

389 Hengineer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:24:30pm

re: #377 Kenneth

Sort of, except most ethnic designations could also be termed geographic as well. You're right in that Asia extends anywhere from Japan to Turkey

390 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:22pm

re: #376 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wow!
*salute*

A young man barely out of high school, a pilot, crashed in the desert just prior to the Battle of El Alamein.

391 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:23pm

re: #356 iceweasel

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

Yes. Auchinleck was relieved after being defeated by Rommel at the Battle of Gazala in May/June 1942. While he did stop Rommel at the First Battle of El Alamein, Winston Churchill believed that a new commander was needed to take on Rommel.

Thank you. Wasn't the issue Auchinleck's failure to take command personally? Its been a while, but I seem to recall Churchill being rather pissed about this.

392 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:24pm

re: #386 buzzsawmonkey

Secret Asians, man.

"Oh, we got a live one here." - Joker

393 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:25pm
394 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:28pm

re: #384 koedo

So, what legitimate groups in England (or Europe) are opposing the Islamists?

Just asking.

Right. You're "just asking."

And if your point is that we need to join up with bigots and fascists, I respectfully suggest that you bite me.

395 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:32pm

re: #377 Kenneth

israel is in asia lol

396 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:33pm

re: #332 HoosierHoops

I always regretted not being Artistic...I mean who doesn't want to draw naked girls in College? It's not fair that some of us can only draw stick figures.
It's just not fair...LOL

Simple way around that my friend -set yourself up as a nude portrait artist, and announce to your model before you begin that you work in the "naive style".

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:25:50pm

re: #105 Fenway_Nation

The 13th Hanjar SS, IIRC...made up mostly of Bosnian Muslims.

OK, let's talk about what the Catholic Croats did now. Did WWII 'stop' Catholicism's attempt to take over the world?

398 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:26:05pm

re: #380 iceweasel

Not only that. Literary works as well. Obscenity trials for James Joyce, Henry Miller, others too. DH Lawrence, I think...many.

...Larry Flint...

399 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:26:46pm

re: #371 yochanan

If you're not an Orthodox Jew, Nimoy's images would seem like bland nudity. It's the interspersing of potent Jewish religious symbols in an inappropriate way that are offensive, like "Piss Christ". A non-Christian wouldn't care if an image of Jesus on the cross was treated with contempt by being immersed in urine by the artist. He/she might be able to understand why such a depiction would offend Christians.

I'm surprised that our liberal lizards don't get that Orthodox Jews are wounded by Nimoy's abuse of the religious symbols. Do they not care? Or are the only possible victims of bigotry their own select group of victims?

400 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:26:48pm

re: #395 yochanan

good point.

401 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:26:53pm

re: #391 Flyers1974

Scratch #356 on my last. Sorry IW.

402 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:26:56pm
403 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:27:24pm

re: #396 Jimmah

Simple way around that my friend -set yourself up as a nude portrait artist, and announce to your model before you begin that you work in the "naive style".

If Hoosier needs an assistant, I'm free on Thursdays and Fridays!

404 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:27:56pm

re: #388 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, for Chrissakes. There were also Indian Muslims serving in the British Army. Trying to portray Islam as an aggressor in the Second World War because some Muslim leaders allied with Hitler is disingenous and silly.

Agreed. Far more Muslims fought for the Allies than fought for the Axis. It might however, be accurate to say that WWII gave impetus to the rise of Radical Islam. That and France's postwar decision to allow the Grand Mufti to escape to Egypt.

405 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:28:14pm

re: #383 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, thanks for the correction.

406 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:28:23pm

re: #383 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'd argue that Wavell never was resupplied or reinforced for the campaign against Rommel. And don't forget Patton's experience at the Kasserine Pass.

407 Kenneth  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:29:25pm

good night all, got a 4 year old to tuck.

later.

408 SteveC  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:29:29pm

re: #406 quickjustice

And don't forget Patton's experience at the Kasserine Pass.

"Rommel, I read your boook!"

409 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:31:08pm

re: #406 quickjustice

I'd argue that Wavell never was resupplied or reinforced for the campaign against Rommel. And don't forget Patton's experience at the Kasserine Pass.


Patton was not yet engaged against Rommel at Kasserine. The 1st Armored was defeated in that battle because a combination of inexperience, bad leadership and good German tactics.

410 Jim in virginia  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:31:20pm

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, let's talk about what the Catholic Croats did now. Did WWII 'stop' Catholicism's attempt to take over the world?

Has Catholicism stopped trying to take over the world ?
(Calvinist here)
///

Seriously - Gandhi in 1942 urged the British to quit India and leave it to the Japanese. Did that make him an anti semite?

411 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:32:50pm

re: #249 sattv4u2

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Goldbergs definition of porn, but have you seen the photos in question, and what Nimoy was trying to depict?
If you have seen any of them, would you feel comfortable with them being displayed in a grammar school? Sold in Target (or any other mass merchandise retailer)?

Also, I am not of the Jewish faith, but I can understand why it would upste one!

I wouldn't display them in a grammar school, but I wouldn't show some very beautiful and well-respected art in a grammar school either. Nudes are not for the third grade. That doens't make them pornographic.

412 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:35:38pm

re: #350 Jimmah

I read that when it was first posted here and laughed. I think you are missing the point, very much! Whatever the definition of pornography, it has nothing to do with offending someone's religious sensibilities. If it were, then just about the entire canon of western art, with it's licencious and religiously offensive depiction of living things (gasp!) would be pornography.

Excellent point. I'm compelled to point out that fear of the body and a certain prurient interest in it has resulted in covering up statues before...Under Ashcroft, for example, the DOJ spent $8000 to hide the breast on the statue of justice.
His need to cover up the statue did lead to quite a few bitter jokes on the left, naturally.
And I agree that no definition of pornography involves anything about religious sensibilities-- no reasonable standard that I've ever seen.

413 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:36:38pm

re: #410 Jim in virginia

Despite the pacifist stereotype, Gandhi was a British-educated lawyer and military veteran who was awarded the Victoria's Cross for heroism in the service of the British Army. I'd be curious as to why he preferred the Japanese to the British in the occupation of India.

414 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:36:42pm

re: #410 Jim in virginia

Has Catholicism stopped trying to take over the world ?
(Calvinist here)
///

Seriously - Gandhi in 1942 urged the British to quit India and leave it to the Japanese. Did that make him an anti semite?

Gandhi did say that, but what that really shows is the limits of non-violence. Gandhi's ideas would not have worked against Japan, because the Japanese were prepared to simply depopulate areas if needed. Imperial Japan could not be reasoned with, it had to pounded into submission.

415 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:37:33pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Far more Muslims fought for the Allies than fought for the Axis. It might however, be accurate to say that WWII gave impetus to the rise of Radical Islam. That and France's postwar decision to allow the Grand Mufti to escape to Egypt.

How do you mean? Not that I disagree necessarily, just interested in your theory.

416 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:37:35pm

re: #406 quickjustice

I'd argue that Wavell never was resupplied or reinforced for the campaign against Rommel. And don't forget Patton's experience at the Kasserine Pass.

(taking #2 first) Patton wasn't at the Kasserine.

(#1) Rommel's initial assault, with light forces, took the British by surprise. They'd whomped the Italians, and saw no reason to reinforce Wavell.

IIRC, Rommel came out of el Agheila (sp?) with little more than the 90th Light, and kicked the British clean past Tobruk. His tactical doctrine was hell-bent-for-leather, leading from the front (as he did in that drive across France.) With all due respect, Wavell and his officers hadn't a clue what was about to hit them.

417 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:38:29pm

re: #412 iceweasel

And the Pope ordered Michaelangelo to paint pasties on his own work. You may hold sexual modesty in contempt, but it is central to all of the great religions.

418 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:38:40pm

Good evening, SanFrancisco Zionist:

I saw that you posted a question about huckleberries after I went to bed. Did anybody ever answer your questions?

419 Jim in virginia  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:39:00pm

re: #404 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Far more Muslims fought for the Allies than fought for the Axis. It might however, be accurate to say that WWII gave impetus to the rise of Radical Islam. That and France's postwar decision to allow the Grand Mufti to escape to Egypt.


I'd credit the 1970s spike in oil prices and the transfer of wealth to Saudi Arabia as one of the main components of the rise of Radical Islam.
Just as critical was the spread of rapid communications which enabled western culture and values (Britney Spears, Madonna, blue jeans, votes for women) to spread worldwide. That's more threatening to radical Islam than Jews in the Holy Land.

420 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:39:36pm

re: #377 Kenneth

Asian is not ethnic, it`s geographic. Asia extends from Turkey to Korea, to peoples with no ethnic commonality.

Point taken. However, my basic point, I think still, pertains.

421 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:39:50pm

Later.

422 Jim in virginia  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:41:49pm

re: #414 Dark_Falcon I think it shows that in some areas Gandhi was very canny while in others he may have been incredibly naive.

423 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:44:01pm

re: #395 yochanan

israel is in asia lol

One of the things I occasionally do that drives anti-Israel people completely berserk is insist on being West Asian.

424 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:44:46pm

Be back tomorrow.
Good night all.

425 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:45:17pm

re: #416 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks for the correction about the Kasserine. I'll have to go back to my book about that campaign, but my memory is that Wavell was asking London for reinforcements and fuel, and Churchill was diverting them to the futile defense of Crete. Rommel himself was brilliant, of course, but all armies in the desert have critical issues of maintaining supply lines and reinforcements. The longer the supply line, the more vulnerable the army to having it cut.

426 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:46:10pm

re: #399 quickjustice

If you're not an Orthodox Jew, Nimoy's images would seem like bland nudity. It's the interspersing of potent Jewish religious symbols in an inappropriate way that are offensive, like "Piss Christ". A non-Christian wouldn't care if an image of Jesus on the cross was treated with contempt by being immersed in urine by the artist. He/she might be able to understand why such a depiction would offend Christians.

I'm surprised that our liberal lizards don't get that Orthodox Jews are wounded by Nimoy's abuse of the religious symbols. Do they not care? Or are the only possible victims of bigotry their own select group of victims?

Some of these arguments came up during the time of the Mohammed cartoon riots. Most western societies have decided that the benefits of free speech outweigh the feelings of those who might be offended by what they hear or see.

427 harpsicon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:46:48pm

re: #377 Kenneth

Asian is not ethnic, it`s geographic. Asia extends from Turkey to Korea, to peoples with no ethnic commonality.

Jeez... He was being sarcastic. English press can't use the word "Muslim", especially with regard to rampaging "youths" so they say "Asians" instead.

A few too many left-wing refugees washing up here on the shores of sanity. Got to know the background we have here, the common understanding of the nasty establishment Left.

428 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:46:50pm

re: #412 iceweasel

Excellent point. I'm compelled to point out that fear of the body and a certain prurient interest in it has resulted in covering up statues before...Under Ashcroft, for example, the DOJ spent $8000 to hide the breast on the statue of justice.
His need to cover up the statue did lead to quite a few bitter jokes on the left, naturally.

That is just retard-sexual. Seriously!

429 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:46:57pm

re: #399 quickjustice

If you're not an Orthodox Jew, Nimoy's images would seem like bland nudity. It's the interspersing of potent Jewish religious symbols in an inappropriate way that are offensive, like "Piss Christ". A non-Christian wouldn't care if an image of Jesus on the cross was treated with contempt by being immersed in urine by the artist. He/she might be able to understand why such a depiction would offend Christians.

I'm surprised that our liberal lizards don't get that Orthodox Jews are wounded by Nimoy's abuse of the religious symbols. Do they not care? Or are the only possible victims of bigotry their own select group of victims?

I understand the objections, however as a Jew, I am not offended. I think the photographs are beautiful and spiritual, and there is no urine involved. I do not think that anyone who is offended by the religious symbolism should view the work.

430 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:47:11pm

re: #375 Sharmuta

I think there is a wide swath of the middle that is starving for a principled venue they can agree with. They're finding that in LGF, and they're coming back for more. There are a number of registered Lizards as of late that are very bright and well reasoned. I think it's because of the audience LGF is now gaining from a reputation for sanity bridging a number of divides.

Yes, and not only that-- people on the left are starved for a good blog to read that isn't left. Not everyone wants to be in an echochamber. And the rightblogs have been batshit insane for a long time and they've only gotten worse.

Sure, it's fun for the snarkosphere to mock Ace, Malkin, and others, but most of us do want to read someone sane on the right. And there's hardly anyone anymore. Krauthammer (sometimes), Daniel Larison at American Conservative (my personal fave), John Cole at Balloon Juice, who was rabidly pro-Bush and wound up voting for Obama--Cole isn't really a conservative, but at least he's independent. But who else? Rick Moran at right wing nuthouse is sometimes sensible. Tom McGuire at Just One Minute has turned into a nirther. Ed Morrissey now shills for Malkin.

The gap in the market has turned into a crevasse. There's no where to go but here.

431 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:47:42pm

re: #419 Jim in virginia

I'd credit the 1970s spike in oil prices and the transfer of wealth to Saudi Arabia as one of the main components of the rise of Radical Islam.
Just as critical was the spread of rapid communications which enabled western culture and values (Britney Spears, Madonna, blue jeans, votes for women) to spread worldwide. That's more threatening to radical Islam than Jews in the Holy Land.

I would add poverty combined with inability to have a say in the future, i.e., corruption and dictators of various stripes. But only when you add to this mix the prevalent perception that other religions or people from other religions (obviously Christians and Jews) are keeping the Arab world down. This last element is what is missing I think, from other poverty and corruption ridden countries as found in S. America, etc... which don't take religion to these extremes.

432 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:48:28pm

As for pornography, it's the depiction of people having sex. To the extent nudity is calculated to lead to sex, it's obscene if displayed to vulnerable classes of people like children. As the culture becomes less modest, pornography becomes more accepted.

433 SpaceJesus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:49:17pm

why do english people look so funny

434 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:49:20pm

re: #415 Flyers1974

How do you mean? Not that I disagree necessarily, just interested in your theory.

The Nazis provided funding to Islamic radicals as a means of gaining troops and creating rear-area trouble for the British. Some of the movements thus funded went on to grow postwar. That was my point.

435 harpsicon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:49:50pm

re: #388 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, for Chrissakes. There were also Indian Muslims serving in the British Army. Trying to portray Islam as an aggressor in the Second World War because some Muslim leaders allied with Hitler is disingenous and silly.

Yes there were. But the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went out of his way to applaud Hitler and to join up with him.

Guess why!

Kinda takes the wind out of the "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm just anti-Zionist" argument, considering that at the time the Zionists were hardly visible. But killing all the Jews - there's something a Grand Mufti can get on board with!

436 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:49:54pm

re: #433 spacejesus

why do english people look so funny

Because it was dress like Spacejesus day.

/Do you really have to set yourself up like that?

437 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:49:58pm

re: #427 harpsicon

Jeez... He was being sarcastic. English press can't use the word "Muslim", especially with regard to rampaging "youths" so they say "Asians" instead.

A few too many left-wing refugees washing up here on the shores of sanity. Got to know the background we have here, the common understanding of the nasty establishment Left.

What? Kenneth is completely correct in this. You don't know what you're talking about, and you're completely confused about how the British press uses the word Asian.
And I don't think it's for you to dictate where there are 'too many left-wing refugees' (whatever the hell THAT means).

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:50:07pm

re: #418 EmmmieG

Good evening, SanFrancisco Zionist:

I saw that you posted a question about huckleberries after I went to bed. Did anybody ever answer your questions?

No, but I looked them up.

;)

439 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:51:29pm

re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist

No, but I looked them up.

;)

The important thing is not to confuse wild blueberries with huckleberries. You want the shiny purplish ones. And now, the Princess has made us all huckleberry pie, so I shall be absent for a bit.

440 SpaceJesus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:51:38pm

re: #436 EmmmieG

Because it was dress like Spacejesus day.

/Do you really have to set yourself up like that?

then they would all be dashing and handsome. i see none of that in birmingham.

441 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:52:14pm

Fugees

442 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:53:38pm

re: #426 jaunte

There's no question that there's a First Amendment right in the U.S. to make a statement that offends religious people. Whether one ought to exercise that right is a matter of discretion. In the case of the Mohammed cartoons, they clearly were protected speech if U.S. law had applied. I don't think the government should suppress such speech, but that doesn't mean people should go around routinely offending religious people as a matter of habit. That would lead to a breach of the peace.

And if extremists make extravagant claims for their religion-- that the government should restrict free speech to prevent speech offensive to Muslims or Christians, for example-- that's clearly beyond the pale.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:53:59pm

re: #427 harpsicon

Jeez... He was being sarcastic. English press can't use the word "Muslim", especially with regard to rampaging "youths" so they say "Asians" instead.

A few too many left-wing refugees washing up here on the shores of sanity. Got to know the background we have here, the common understanding of the nasty establishment Left.

You want them to start describing people by religion when they're accused of crimes? Sheesh.

I know exactly what the implication is supposed to be, but 'Asian' is actually how people describe folks with Indian and Pakistani roots in England.

444 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:54:30pm

re: #437 iceweasel

What? Kenneth is completely correct in this. You don't know what you're talking about, and you're completely confused about how the British press uses the word Asian.
And I don't think it's for you to dictate where there are 'too many left-wing refugees' (whatever the hell THAT means).

Good point. In the UK "Asian" means from South Asia i.e. India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan. In the US "Asian" means from East Asia such as China, Japan, or Vietnam. The difference in terms may be because in the UK the South Asian population is larger, whereas in the US East Asians are more prevalent.

445 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:55:35pm

re: #442 quickjustice

In this particular case, I think Nimoy (who is only an average photographer) is getting more notoriety than he deserves for a cheap stunt. But he has the right to do it.

446 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:55:36pm

re: #440 SpaceJesus

then they would all be dashing and handsome. i see none of that in birmingham.

Yeah you're "dashing"; Dashing from one lame line to another, while getting downdinged all the while.

447 harpsicon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:57:12pm

re: #435 harpsicon

Yes there were. But the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem went out of his way to applaud Hitler and to join up with him.

Guess why!

Kinda takes the wind out of the "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm just anti-Zionist" argument, considering that at the time the Zionists were hardly visible. But killing all the Jews - there's something a Grand Mufti can get on board with!

All right, enlighten me! Sure seems that way - it's as though they're so worried about offending that they wind up in effect whitewashing the story. A lot of people here also snark about the latest "Buddhist" terrorist attack...

448 SpaceJesus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:57:30pm

re: #446 Dark_Falcon

Yeah you're "dashing"; Dashing from one lame line to another, while getting downdinged all the while.


i've always wondered why you have a big scary gun in your picture. is it because you have a small penis? it's ok, you can tell spacejesus.

449 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:58:02pm

re: #417 quickjustice

And the Pope ordered Michaelangelo to paint pasties on his own work. You may hold sexual modesty in contempt, but it is central to all of the great religions.

I wonder where you get the idea that I hold 'sexual modesty' in contempt.

That's straight out of the Paranoid Style in American Politics:

The enemy is clearly delineated: he is a perfect model of malice, a kind of amoral superman—sinister, ubiquitous, powerful, cruel, sensual, luxury-loving.

It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him.

the sexual freedom often attributed to the enemy, his lack of moral inhibition, his possession of especially effective techniques for fulfilling his desires, give exponents of the paranoid style an opportunity to project and express unacknowledgeable aspects of their own psychological concerns. Catholics and Mormons—later, Negroes and Jews—have lent themselves to a preoccupation with illicit sex. Very often the fantasies of true believers reveal strong sadomasochistic outlets, vividly expressed, for example, in the delight of anti-Masons with the cruelty of Masonic punishments.

I don't hold 'sexual modesty' in contempt, and I have contempt for you for suggesting I do.
I do hold obsessive and prurient interest in sex in contempt, especially the hypocritical zealousness of those who profess to see it everywhere-- except in themselves and their own obsessions.

450 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:59:09pm

re: #445 jaunte

Agreed. He's a mediocre artist.

451 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:00:04pm

re: #449 iceweasel

I don't do paranoid. I'll leave that to you, love.

452 harpsicon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:00:19pm

re: #449 iceweasel

I don't hold 'sexual modesty' in contempt, and I have contempt for you for suggesting I do.
I do hold obsessive and prurient interest in sex in contempt, especially the hypocritical zealousness of those who profess to see it everywhere-- except in themselves and their own obsessions.

And people also forget that in art history "sacred love" is the one without clothes, "profane" is the clothed...

453 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:02:25pm

re: #452 harpsicon

Hey, whatever floats your boat! ;-)

454 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:02:49pm

re: #448 SpaceJesus

i've always wondered why you have a big scary gun in your picture. is it because you have a small penis? it's ok, you can tell spacejesus.

Actually, I did because I liked that smilely and it find the size limits for avatars. It does also happen that I have a small penis. but that's not a issue since I have no interest in dating or having sex.

/not sarc

455 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:03:31pm

re: #451 quickjustice

I don't do paranoid. I'll leave that to you, love.

Dingding for the snarky insult.

456 Enkidu90046  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:04:15pm

re: #408 SteveC

"Rommel, I read your boook!"

That was El Gatar. Kasserine Pass was pre-Patton.

457 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:04:33pm

re: #417 quickjustice

And the Pope ordered Michaelangelo to paint pasties on his own work. You may hold sexual modesty in contempt, but it is central to all of the great religions.

By the way, I guess you'll just define 'great religion' so as to exclude all religions whose ideas about sexuality and the sacred don't line up with your own concerns, right? My guess is that you'll tell me Hinduism isn't a 'great religion' and that Khajuraho is actually a whorehouse?
Maybe you can get John Ashcroft to spend 80,000 dollars for a big sheet to cover up that temple, too.

458 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:06:02pm

re: #457 iceweasel

We might need a few fact-finding trips, first.

459 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:06:13pm

re: #451 quickjustice

I don't do paranoid. I'll leave that to you, love.

Yeah, well, we've established you don't do logic, reason, or argument. But you do excell at projection and making insults when you're butthurt! ;)

PS downding for you calling me 'love'. In your dreams.

460 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:06:26pm

re: #457 iceweasel

Sorry, darling. Not biting. Hinduism is the religion of light.

461 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:07:18pm

re: #417 quickjustice

And the Pope ordered Michaelangelo to paint pasties on his own work. You may hold sexual modesty in contempt, but it is central to all of the great religions.

Pretty big leap from finding that statue cover-up ludicrous to "holding sexual modesty in contempt" wouldn't you say? Care to try to justify that statement?

462 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:07:35pm

re: #459 iceweasel

"It's "ow' and "garn" that keep her in her place. Not her wretched clothes and dirty face."

-Professor Henry Higgins

463 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:08:35pm

re: #461 Jimmah

Nudity in art doesn't offend me. Why are you obsessing about it?

464 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:10:05pm

re: #463 quickjustice

Nudity in art doesn't offend me. Why are you obsessing about it?

More projection. Dude, you ought to open up a movie theater if you're going to be projecting that often.

465 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #463 quickjustice

Nudity in art doesn't offend me. Why are you obsessing about it?

I see you can't even begin to justify your statement. What a surprise./

466 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:11:16pm

re: #462 quickjustice

"It's "ow' and "garn" that keep her in her place.

We've established that you have fantasies about keeping women in their place, hence your need to quote that everytime I kick your ass yet again.

Youtube Video

I'd agree women have a place. That would be as far away from you as possible. ;)

467 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:11:51pm

re: #462 quickjustice

"It's "ow' and "garn" that keep her in her place. Not her wretched clothes and dirty face."

-Professor Henry Higgins

I find your repeated posting of this quote to iceweasel to be just a tad creepy.

468 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:12:08pm

I read the article. It was bothersome to see a picture of these right-wing morons brandishing an Israeli flag. They sully the banner with their hatred.

Regarding this excerpt:

One protester from the league, Leisha Brookes, 42, said: 'We are simply protesting about the fact that if people come to our country, they should respect our laws.
'If an English person went to an Arab country they would be expected to dress appropriately, and all we are asking is for them to do the same.'

What she doesn't get is that England, like the U.S., gives each individual the choice as to how they can "be" in society, and that includes the manner in which they dress. That sort of freedom is not a given in most Arab nations.

469 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:16:23pm

re: #467 Jimmah

As a wise Englishman in Birmingham once said to me, the English are buccaneers and pirates. ;-)

470 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:16:33pm

re: #460 quickjustice

Sorry, darling. Not biting. Hinduism is the religion of light.

In other words, you've gotten your ass kicked yet again, and the best you can do is call me 'darling' in a pisspoor attempt at 'wit'.

But you've finally said something I can agree with. You certainly are sorry. Pathetic.

471 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:17:42pm

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

I'm reflecting, not projecting, dude.

472 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:17:50pm

re: #462 quickjustice

re: #466 iceweasel

We've established that you have fantasies about keeping women in their place, hence your need to quote that everytime I kick your ass yet again.


[Video]I'd agree women have a place. That would be as far away from you as possible. ;)

You know, QJ, I think you should take a trip to your local Brookstone. They have some terrific seatcushions there to help reduce your butthurt. I'd also recommend that you stop fighting with iceweasel, because she always seems to get the better of you. The best way to reduce butthurt is to stop getting your ass kicked.

473 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:18:07pm

re: #433 spacejesus

why do english people look so funny

Not all brits look like the royals, spacejesus...

Image: condo-queen-portrait.jpg

474 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:19:21pm

re: #85 Charles

According to this article, Muslims make up about 3% of the population in the UK. However, they apparently commit a disproportionate number of the anti-semitic attacks there. Thus, the article states,

"Among the identified perpetrators, people of Asian and Arab appearance were 38 percent of the total in 2004, 30 percent in 2005, 34 percent in 2006, and 27 percent in 2007. We notice sharp increases in attacks after violent events in the Middle East. For instance, the Israeli assassinations of Hamas leaders in 2004 were followed by such an increase, as was the Second Lebanon War in 2006. One sees then a further increase in the percentage of Muslim perpetrators.

"Dr. Paul Iganski, an independent academic criminologist now at Lancaster University, has similar findings. He was the first one-together with two Metropolitan Police Service criminologists-to conduct research based on police reports. They found that from 2001 to 2004, 50 percent of identifiable perpetrators of hate crimes against Jews were nonwhite, that is, black, Asian, or of Arab appearance."

If this information is correct, it seems like this is a problem that should be taken seriously.

475 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:20:18pm

re: #471 quickjustice

I'm reflecting, not projecting, dude.

No, reflection what you should be doing. Every time you disagree with iceweasel you freak out when she scores a point on you. I'm beginning to think that the main problem is that you feel shamed losing to a woman.

476 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:20:31pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

I'm an American. We don't do "Brookstone". And I'm adept at verbal abuse, but it doesn't seem that the Weasel, or Jimmah, or you are worth it. On to more worthy targets.

Goodnight.

477 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:22:09pm

re: #457 iceweasel


and that Khajuraho is actually a whorehouse?

If it were, that would be the Coolest. Whorehouse. Evar!
/
That building is awesome.

478 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:22:37pm

re: #474 Hanoch

It should be taken seriously, but the BNP is not interested in doing that. Taking such attacks seriously would involve good police work to ferret out the culprits, and public education to counter anti-Semitic propagada, much of which is pumped out by the BNP.

479 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:22:51pm

re: #474 Hanoch

I think you're confusing two issues. Lawlessness should be dealt with by enforcing the law. It doesn't change the over all demographics of the country of 3% muslims to 30% because crime is up, or committed by certain groups.

480 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:28:26pm

re: #476 quickjustice

I'm an American. We don't do "Brookstone". And I'm adept at verbal abuse, but it doesn't seem that the Weasel, or Jimmah, or you are worth it. On to more worthy targets.

Goodnight.

Brookstone is an American company. They are found in many shopping malls throughout the country, and many airports as well. Next time, know what you're talking about before you spout off.

481 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:31:28pm

re: #476 quickjustice

I'm an American. We don't do "Brookstone". And I'm adept at verbal abuse, but it doesn't seem that the Weasel, or Jimmah, or you are worth it. On to more worthy targets.

Goodnight.

Quickjustice, you made some silly statements and obnoxious insinuations whuch you couldn't back up. Frankly, you couldn't argue your way out of a paper bag. Some general advice for you:

Image: lolcatsdotcomttbwex6me2ieahcu.jpg

482 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:32:54pm

re: #480 Dark_Falcon

Brookstone is an American company. They are found in many shopping malls throughout the country, and many airports as well. Next time, know what you're talking about before you spout off.

My husband bought me a key tracker at Brookstone. One of the happiest inventions ever, for me. My children carry the keys off.

483 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:36:35pm

re: #475 Dark_Falcon

No, reflection what you should be doing. Every time you disagree with iceweasel you freak out when she scores a point on you. I'm beginning to think that the main problem is that you feel shamed losing to a woman.

DF, I honestly have to think that might be true. It's always the same pattern. He resorts to calling me 'honey' or some such and then posts that henry Higgins quote. I would almost feel sorry for him because it's too easy to score points on him, but he always freaks out in a nasty little way whenever he's corrected.

re: #481 Jimmah

Some general advice for you:

[Link: i238.photobucket.com...]

Jimmah! ;) I love that, always makes me laugh.

484 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:37:43pm

re: #477 Slumbering Behemoth

If it were, that would be the Coolest. Whorehouse. Evar!
/
That building is awesome.

Isn't it cool? I haven't been yet but I would love to go. Seen a lot of pictures of it though! ;)

485 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:38:00pm

re: #472 Dark_Falcon

re: #466 iceweasel

You know, QJ, I think you should take a trip to your local Brookstone. They have some terrific seatcushions there to help reduce your butthurt. I'd also recommend that you stop fighting with iceweasel, because she always seems to get the better of you. The best way to reduce butthurt is to stop getting your ass kicked.

Well said, Dark_Falcon. Extra upding for the use of "butthurt" to be applied to randomly selected future post.

486 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:45:46pm

re: #478 Dark_Falcon

I don't have any confidence that the British or any of the European governments are capable of dealing with the problem effectively. Earlier this year, the Swedes actually banned tennis fans from attending the Davis Cup match between the Israeli and Swedish teams because they were afraid of the reaction of the the city's large Muslim population. And everyone knows what happens when the Muslims get upset in the Paris suburbs. The problems will get worse as the demographics increasingly shift.

487 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:46:59pm

OK -

They are to whatever degree Screwed Up - AND - I can STILL Feel Their Pain.
The UK Government has allowed "Former Commonwealth" - a/k/a Pakistani in the main - Muslims emigrate to the UK on an essentially unlimited basis. So far, so good. Most of them have contributed greatly to the UK by work and adapting to the mores of the UK.
A few have NOT - and - wish to remake the UK into a Sharia/Islamic State. Those few should be deported, forthwith. They have NOT been, and there lies the "RUB."

-S-

488 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:51:34pm

Ain't talking bout I-Dub (well not anymore he isn't)... :)

Youtube Video
489 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:52:07pm

re: #487 Dr. Shalit

OK -

They are to whatever degree Screwed Up - AND - I can STILL Feel Their Pain.
The UK Government has allowed "Former Commonwealth" - a/k/a Pakistani in the main - Muslims emigrate to the UK on an essentially unlimited basis. So far, so good. Most of them have contributed greatly to the UK by work and adapting to the mores of the UK.
A few have NOT - and - wish to remake the UK into a Sharia/Islamic State. Those few should be deported, forthwith. They have NOT been, and there lies the "RUB."

-S-

Concur, mostly. The UK needs to be clear that there will be no sharia there. Those Islamists who don't like that fact can flounce off.

490 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:52:38pm

Thanks, Stinky.

491 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:55:21pm

re: #474 Hanoch

According to this article, Muslims make up about 3% of the population in the UK. However, they apparently commit a disproportionate number of the anti-semitic attacks there. Thus, the article states,

If this information is correct, it seems like this is a problem that should be taken seriously.

Not very conclusive. If that is correct in stating that the, "perpetrators, people of Asian and Arab appearance were 38 percent of the total in 2004, 30 percent in 2005, 34 percent in 2006, and 27 percent in 2007" that means it fell by 7% in 2007 which means a reduction. Later in those quotes they mix results including "black, Asian, or of Arab appearance" to create an even higher number of 50%. Yet preceding these two paragraphs they say:


"The Community Security Trust (CST), which provides security and defense services for the British Jewish community, has physical descriptions of some perpetrators. For instance, in 2007 we have recorded figures for 243 of the 547 physical attacks on Jews. In 129 cases the perpetrators were white British, 15 were East European, 27 were blacks, 52 were Asian, and 14 were of Arab appearance. The last two categories, in essence, are probably Muslims. Their share in the violence is far higher than their proportion of the population.

129/243 x 100 = 53.1% which were white and British.

But wait. They're looking at 243 examples:

129 + 15 + 27 + 52 + 14 = 237. There are 6 samples missing.

Then they flippantly conclude "The last two categories, in essence, are probably Muslims." So they're adding Asians and Arab in appearance as Muslims? China, Japan, Korea, etc. are all Asian countries. What about black Muslims? If we only use the 14 of "Arab appearance" we find that it is 5.7% of the sample. The Mulsim population in the UK is 2.8%. However, we are still missing the 6 samples and the remaining balance of 547 - 243 or 304. "Arab appearance" is not a very accurate identifier.

492 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:58:25pm

re: #491 Gus 802

So they're adding Asians and Arab in appearance as Muslims? China, Japan, Korea, etc. are all Asian countries. What about black Muslims?

What about white muslims?

493 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 7:58:58pm

re: #492 Sharmuta

What about white muslims?

True. It can go either way.

494 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:03:09pm

re: #491 Gus 802

"Arab appearance" is not a very accurate identifier.


I'll say. My Anglo-Indian ex almost got his ass kicked in a pub toilet in London not long after 7-7, by a couple of drunk assholes, for the crime of 'looking Arab'.

Never mind that he was born in Surrey, as was everyone on his mother's side, and he went to Oxford. And that he's half Indian.

There's always been a lot of racism and bigotry in the UK, directed especially against Asians. 7-7 and 9-11 have just given people the new excuse of hating 'Muslims' and deciding that everyone they don't like is a Muslim.

495 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:06:40pm

re: #490 Sharmuta

Thanks, Stinky.

Heh. Nomination for Stinky's theme song...

Play him off, keyboard cat!

Youtube Video
496 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:07:13pm

re: #494 iceweasel

I'll say. My Anglo-Indian ex almost got his ass kicked in a pub toilet in London not long after 7-7, by a couple of drunk assholes, for the crime of 'looking Arab'.

Never mind that he was born in Surrey, as was everyone on his mother's side, and he went to Oxford. And that he's half Indian.

There's always been a lot of racism and bigotry in the UK, directed especially against Asians. 7-7 and 9-11 have just given people the new excuse of hating 'Muslims' and deciding that everyone they don't like is a Muslim.

It's difficult to tell based on appearance or even accents. I once met a woman architect and I asked her if she was Italian. No, she responded, she was from Iran. My dad who is from Argentina has been described as "that Indian guy" or once as Russian. There are plenty of examples. Like having "olive skin" and a beard can confuse a lot of already confused people.

497 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:11:49pm

re: #496 Gus 802

It's difficult to tell based on appearance or even accents. I once met a woman architect and I asked her if she was Italian. No, she responded, she was from Iran. My dad who is from Argentina has been described as "that Indian guy" or once as Russian. There are plenty of examples. Like having "olive skin" and a beard can confuse a lot of already confused people.

Exactly. What was so surprising to me was that my friend, in the US, is never identified as Indian at all. People would think he might be Greek, or Spanish, or Italian, or Hispanic. Just olive skin and dark eyes and hair.

But in the UK, the classifications are very different. For example, the word 'black' is used to cover not merely Africans or people of african descent, but Asians-- South Asians, not East Asians. So someone from Pakistan is called 'a black'.

It does give one an idea about just how fluid our notions of 'race' are, though. I've heard that the concept as we know it now was essentially unknown in the ancient world, for example.

498 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:17:04pm

re: #491 Gus 802

Obviously I can't vouch for the specific data but I tend to doubt it is off the mark. Muslim anti-semitism is, unfortunately, rampant, and I haven't heard of many Hindu Indians, Chinese, Japanese or Koreans engaging in attacks on Jews.

499 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:17:33pm

re: #497 iceweasel

Exactly. What was so surprising to me was that my friend, in the US, is never identified as Indian at all. People would think he might be Greek, or Spanish, or Italian, or Hispanic. Just olive skin and dark eyes and hair.

But in the UK, the classifications are very different. For example, the word 'black' is used to cover not merely Africans or people of african descent, but Asians-- South Asians, not East Asians. So someone from Pakistan is called 'a black'.

It does give one an idea about just how fluid our notions of 'race' are, though. I've heard that the concept as we know it now was essentially unknown in the ancient world, for example.

The race identifications are very generalized. Why for instance did the specify "Eastern European" in that article? Wouldn't that be categorized as "white" like on a driver license? The Asian category is highly generalized which can include several "race" or nationalities and religions. In this case it was speaking about religions and as Sharmuta pointed out about white Muslims I've seen many light skinned Arab Muslims before.

500 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:18:12pm

re: #494 iceweasel

I'll say. My Anglo-Indian ex almost got his ass kicked in a pub toilet in London not long after 7-7, by a couple of drunk assholes, for the crime of 'looking Arab'.

Never mind that he was born in Surrey, as was everyone on his mother's side, and he went to Oxford. And that he's half Indian.

There's always been a lot of racism and bigotry in the UK, directed especially against Asians. 7-7 and 9-11 have just given people the new excuse of hating 'Muslims' and deciding that everyone they don't like is a Muslim.

Yep. While ignoring the fact that most asians, particularly the young (whom we are told by paranoid alarmists are sure to plunge us into the dark ages by 2050 or whatever) just want to get on and be integrated in British life.

Youtube Video
501 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:22:17pm

re: #498 Hanoch

Obviously I can't vouch for the specific data but I tend to doubt it is off the mark. Muslim anti-semitism is, unfortunately, rampant, and I haven't heard of many Hindu Indians, Chinese, Japanese or Koreans engaging in attacks on Jews.

Yes, but the article you linked to said:

...52 were Asian, and 14 were of Arab appearance. The last two categories, in essence, are probably Muslims. Their share in the violence is far higher than their proportion of the population.

They lumped in Asians with Arab appearance. In the UK that would include Hindu Indians. No?

502 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:26:06pm

re: #500 Jimmah

Yep. While ignoring the fact that most asians, particularly the young (whom we are told by paranoid alarmists are sure to plunge us into the dark ages by 2050 or whatever) just want to get on and be integrated in British life.

W00t! Asian Dub Foundation!

Time to do Bollywood for Barack again... shamelessly stole this from Killgore, I think.

Youtube Video

And saris are hawt.

503 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:27:42pm

re: #501 Gus 802

They lumped in Asians with Arab appearance. In the UK that would include Hindu Indians. No?

Yes, like my friend. People from Pakistan, Kashmir, all over. It will include everyone from South Asia, regardless of whether they're Muslim, regardless of whether they're Arab.

504 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:28:11pm

re: #112 sattv4u2

We're all getting the complete collection of Michael Moore movies for FREE

"Capitalism is evil," says new Michael Moore film
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

As we speak, I'm sure Mr Moore is liquidating all earthly possesions and donating them to the collective!

Today's Objectivist® Fun Fact™: The original manuscript of Atlas Shrugged included a villain named "Mike Mormunch", described as a grossly obese and disheveled movie director whose ostensibly populist satirical films drew gales of appreciative laughter from the socialist-leaning "smart set" of New York and L.A., while boring everyone else. But Ayn Rand ultimately cut Mormunch from the novel, writing in her journal that "he seemed too fucking one-dimensional, and not at all believable as a character."

(// x ∞)²

505 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:29:45pm

re: #503 iceweasel

Yes, like my friend. People from Pakistan, Kashmir, all over. It will include everyone from South Asia, regardless of whether they're Muslim, regardless of whether they're Arab.

Thanks. I had to quickly look up the definition of Asian for the UK since this was a "study" done in the UK. It's actually not really the study and just an article. However, in the USA, well you know that Asian is a rather wide category.

506 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:34:15pm

re: #501 Gus 802

The article states 52 Asians and 14 Arabs in appearance who attacked Jews "are probably Muslims." That seems probable given that (a) the attacks tended to increase when Israel was engaging in self-defense operations against Muslims; and (b) there aren't any other Asians that I am aware of that target Jews for attack.

507 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:41:13pm

re: #505 Gus 802

Thanks. I had to quickly look up the definition of Asian for the UK since this was a "study" done in the UK. It's actually not really the study and just an article. However, in the USA, well you know that Asian is a rather wide category.

Yes, and in the US we don't use Asian to refer to people from India. As far as I can tell, in the US Asian refers mainly to East Asians, and in the UK it refers to everyone from South or East Asia. And it's very strange that the word 'black' in the UK refers to South Asians.

My general guess is that racism and bigotry tends to reflect immigration patterns. The British have been worried about and angry about Asian immigration for a long time (from South Asia). That's why their racism and bigotry is directed towards people of South Asian descent and immigrants from there. I always suffer cultural whiplash from that more than anything else-- the difference in the way race is viewed and the terms used b/t the US and the UK. They're so different.

508 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:43:23pm

Iceweasel: Are people from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, etc., referred to as "East Asians" in the UK, or is "Oriental" still in currency there?

("Oriental" has become non-PC in American English, for absolutely no logical reason -- I suspect the pernicious influence of Edward Said.)

509 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:47:13pm

re: #474 Hanoch

According to this article, Muslims make up about 3% of the population in the UK. However, they apparently commit a disproportionate number of the anti-semitic attacks there. Thus, the article states,

If this information is correct, it seems like this is a problem that should be taken seriously.

3 percent!

Britain is DOOMED!

510 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:47:32pm

re: #506 Hanoch

This might be a better reference:

Incident Perpetrators

Identifying the ethnicity of the perpetrators of antisemitic incidents is a difficult and imprecise task. Many antisemitic incidents involve brief public encounters; the evidence of victims of, or witnesses to, antisemitic incidents, may be vague and disjointed. In addition, many incidents do not involve face-to face contact between incident perpetrator and victim, so it is not possible to obtain a physical description. Bearing in mind these limitations, a physical description of the perpetrator was provided to CST3 in 216 of the 609 antisemitic incidents reported during the first six months of 2009. Of these, 98 were described as white (45 per cent); 5 as East European (two per cent); 20 as black (nine per cent); 68 as Asian (31 per cent); one as Far Eastern (1 per cent); and 24 of Arab appearance (11 per cent).

Go to page 6.

It's a little more complicated if you glance through that report. The incidents do rise with Middle East activity. They also delve into other issues.

511 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:48:01pm

re: #506 Hanoch

The article states 52 Asians and 14 Arabs in appearance who attacked Jews "are probably Muslims." That seems probable given that (a) the attacks tended to increase when Israel was engaging in self-defense operations against Muslims; and (b) there aren't any other Asians that I am aware of that target Jews for attack.

That's not probable whatsoever, given that 1) 'asian' in the UK includes everyone from India, and therefore will include a huge number of Hindus AND 2) 'Arab in appearance' can mean quite literally anything in the UK-- anyone who doesn't fit the purely AngloSaxon model. More than half the people on this site would easily count as 'arab in appearance' by Brit standards-- anyone part Italian, Latino, Greek, just to start. Hell, Jews and Israelis would count as 'arab in appearance' there!

The article is utter shite. You can't possibly infer the religion of those people on the basis of how they look.

512 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:52:44pm

re: #508 Throbert McGee

Iceweasel: Are people from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, etc., referred to as "East Asians" in the UK, or is "Oriental" still in currency there?

("Oriental" has become non-PC in American English, for absolutely no logical reason -- I suspect the pernicious influence of Edward Said.)

East Asian AFAIK. I'd consider 'oriental' to be non-PC myself.

Also, in the UK you don't say 'oriented' but rather 'orientated', which I always find interesting. And even when it's spelled 'oriented' in British English you pronounce it 'orientated'.

513 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:52:52pm

re: #507 iceweasel

Yes, and in the US we don't use Asian to refer to people from India. As far as I can tell, in the US Asian refers mainly to East Asians, and in the UK it refers to everyone from South or East Asia. And it's very strange that the word 'black' in the UK refers to South Asians.

My general guess is that racism and bigotry tends to reflect immigration patterns. The British have been worried about and angry about Asian immigration for a long time (from South Asia). That's why their racism and bigotry is directed towards people of South Asian descent and immigrants from there. I always suffer cultural whiplash from that more than anything else-- the difference in the way race is viewed and the terms used b/t the US and the UK. They're so different.

My favorite is when one talks about Mexico and mention that it's North America which is followed by this blank stare. Of course that's a geographic definition.

514 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:55:08pm

re: #511 iceweasel

If you choose to believe that Hindu Indians are attacking Jews in the UK that is up to you. Given that anti-semitism among Hindu Indians is not very common, I think that is highly unlikely.

515 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:58:23pm

re: #514 Hanoch

If you choose to believe that Hindu Indians are attacking Jews in the UK that is up to you. Given that anti-semitism among Hindu Indians is not very common, I think that is highly unlikely.

If you choose to believe that you can make accurate guesses about a person's religion, let alone their nationality or race, let alone their beliefs and motivations, on the basis of physical appearance, then that's up to you.

I have a reading suggestion.

516 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:01:51pm

re: #511 iceweasel

More than half the people on this site would easily count as 'arab in appearance' by Brit standards-- anyone part Italian, Latino, Greek, just to start. Hell, Jews and Israelis would count as 'arab in appearance' there!

"The wogs begin at Calais."

(As an American, I've always loved that expression, though obviously it's only "lovable" to the extent that individual Brits define "wogs" on the basis of cultural assimilation -- or lack thereof -- rather than on skin color and such. But the idea of a dark-skinned Anglo-Indian using the expression to disparage the Frawnch is just delightful!)

517 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:12:04pm

re: #516 Throbert McGee

"The wogs begin at Calais."

(As an American, I've always loved that expression, though obviously it's only "lovable" to the extent that individual Brits define "wogs" on the basis of cultural assimilation -- or lack thereof -- rather than on skin color and such. But the idea of a dark-skinned Anglo-Indian using the expression to disparage the Frawnch is just delightful!)

I had to google to find that expression and its origin-- never heard it before!

Wigg's coinage, sometimes paraphrased as "Wogs start at the Channel" or "Wogs start at Dover", is used to characterise a stodgy Europhobic viewpoint, and more generally the view that Britain (more so England) is inherently separate from (and superior to) the Continent. In this case, "wog" is used to compare any foreign, non-English person to those more traditionally labeled "wogs"

I'd have to disagree though, 'wog' gets used among the more racist British to mean skin colour and perceived race, regardless of how many generations your family might have been in the country. My friend's experience is the perfect example.

This made me laugh really hard though:

A once common expression in Australia when you had an illness (such as cold or flu) was "I am in bed with a wog." It was said jokingly and was a double entendre referring to the use of the word "wog" to describe illness and also persons of Mediterranean origin (as described below).

I really do find the differences between UK and US ideas on race fascinating. So interesting that they're so different.

518 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:12:31pm

re: #514 Hanoch

If you choose to believe that Hindu Indians are attacking Jews in the UK that is up to you. Given that anti-semitism among Hindu Indians is not very common, I think that is highly unlikely.

But Hindians (why is this incredibly obvious coinage not in more common use?) who live in the UK may well have absorbed anti-semitism either from native British sources, or from other subcontinental immigrants who speak a language related to Hindi, or possibly from Afro-Caribbean immigrants, who'd soaked up some anti-semitism from black Americans, who got it from the Nation of Islam.

519 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:15:21pm

re: #506 Hanoch

The article states 52 Asians and 14 Arabs in appearance who attacked Jews "are probably Muslims." That seems probable given that (a) the attacks tended to increase when Israel was engaging in self-defense operations against Muslims; and (b) there aren't any other Asians that I am aware of that target Jews for attack.

What I don't see in that article is any evidence that these attacks on Jews were done simply because they were Jews. Even if we were to accept the extremely dodgy move of calling everyone described as looking 'arab' in appearance (remember this guy?) 'muslim', which we are not going to do, we would still be left without evidence that those attacks were motivated by anti-semitism. People of all creeds and races get attacked for all kinds of reasons.

520 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:23:39pm

re: #515 iceweasel

I think most people are capable of discerning which assumptions are reasonable and which are unreasonable given a set of facts. As I said, if you believe it is more likely than not that the Asians identified as committing the attacks are Hindu Indians you are entitled to that view. And I am entitled to the view that you are lacking somewhat in the area of common sense.

521 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:28:54pm

re: #519 Jimmah

According to CST, the statistics are compiled where evidence exists that "the victim was targeted because they are (or are believed to be) Jewish." CST does not detail the actual evidence for each attack in their report.

522 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:31:20pm

re: #521 Hanoch

According to CST, the statistics are compiled where evidence exists that "the victim was targeted because they are (or are believed to be) Jewish." CST does not detail the actual evidence for each attack in their report.

That's what I mean by "What I don't see in that article is any evidence that these attacks on Jews were done simply because they were Jews." There is a claim, but no evidence.

523 The Left  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:33:15pm

re: #520 Hanoch

I think most people are capable of discerning which assumptions are reasonable and which are unreasonable given a set of facts. As I said, if you believe it is more likely than not that the Asians identified as committing the attacks are Hindu Indians you are entitled to that view. And I am entitled to the view that you are lacking somewhat in the area of common sense.

I'm equally entitled to the view that you haven't read or understood Gus 802's excellent and thorough comments on the article, and that you appear to have some bias towards accepting that articles wholly unsupportable conclusions-- despite the many excellent reasons pointed out above by Jimmah and Gus, and my own first hand information about how the terms and categories of race are employed in Britain.

I am further entitled to point out that your claim that I am 'lacking in common sense' is a purely ad feminem attack motivated by nothing but your embarrassment at being wrong, and your anger that you lack the first-hand knowledge I have provided as well as the critical reasoning skills Gus and Jimmah have displayed.

Sorry for the smackdown, but that sad little personal jab at me meant I'd have to be blunt.

524 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:34:00pm

re: #520 Hanoch

While I agree with you that most attacks by UK 'Asians' are most likely the work of Muslims, your last sentence was a gratuitous personal attack. Downding.

525 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:47:45pm

re: #524 Dark_Falcon

I appreciate your agreement.

I try not to get gratuitous, but when someone refers me to the Wikipedia link for Der Stürmer as a "reading suggestion" (#515), it is hard not to get the sense I am dealing with a ___ (you can use your imagination to fill in the blank).

526 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:13pm

re: #517 iceweasel

I'd have to disagree though, 'wog' gets used among the more racist British to mean skin colour and perceived race, regardless of how many generations your family might have been in the country.

Well, that's a great pity. It could, instead, be used constructively, to disparage certain foreign customs that must be abandoned by immigrants because they're completely incompatible with British mores, as in "Stop acting like such a pathetic wog, Renukha," said Saandip, "and behave like a respectable middle-class British girl -- where do you think you are, France?!" (Cf. Chris Rock's "Black people vs. N!ggers").

527 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:06:37pm

re: #525 Hanoch

I appreciate your agreement.

I try not to get gratuitous, but when someone refers me to the Wikipedia link for Der Stürmer as a "reading suggestion" (#515), it is hard not to get the sense I am dealing with a ___ (you can use your imagination to fill in the blank).

Upding, because sheesh, my darling iceweasel, that was MOST unbecoming.

528 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:16:30pm

re: #525 Hanoch

I appreciate your agreement.

I try not to get gratuitous, but when someone refers me to the Wikipedia link for Der Stürmer as a "reading suggestion" (#515), it is hard not to get the sense I am dealing with a ___ (you can use your imagination to fill in the blank).

I understand, but iceweasel is not an ass. She does, on rare occasions, go a little far when critiquing (as do I at times). But if that happens, let her know why you think she's wrong. She's proven quite willing to change her opinion if a person can show such a change to be warranted.

529 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:16:45pm

re: #525 Hanoch

I filled in your blank for you :

I try not to get gratuitous, but when someone refers me to the Wikipedia link for Der Stürmer as a "reading suggestion" (#515), it is hard not to get the sense I am dealing with a poster who is fed up with people who are happy to accept claims that are in accord with their prejudices without scrutinising them adequately.

There you go!

530 Aye Pod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:20:04pm

re: #526 Throbert McGee

Well, that's a great pity. It could, instead, be used constructively, to disparage certain foreign customs that must be abandoned by immigrants because they're completely incompatible with British mores, as in "Stop acting like such a pathetic wog, Renukha," said Saandip, "and behave like a respectable middle-class British girl -- where do you think you are, France?!" (Cf. Chris Rock's "Black people vs. N!ggers").

I'm sure you are not a racist throbert but I had to downding you for that. Rehabilitating the word 'wog' - that's a campaign the BNP would get behind.

531 Green Helmet Guy  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 12:39:38am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

They are learning from Vlaam's Belang and other Eurofascists...
Skinheads with an Israeli flag

This is all Israel needs... Racists holding the Israeli flag.

[Sigh] Surrounded, racists to the right, who almost certainly hate Jews and Moonbats and Islamo-fascists to the left.

532 korla pundit  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 3:51:30am

The UK government could make groups like this a lot less attractive by being less fascist itself, and keep its nose out of the pub business. If people weren't being prevented from drinking out of a real glass, playing darts, singing a song, listening to live music or playing a simple trivia game, maybe they would be too content to get sucked in by this kind of anger-based recruitment.

533 The Left  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:28:20am

re: #527 Throbert McGee

Upding, because sheesh, my darling iceweasel, that was MOST unbecoming.

Sorry, throbert, it was entirely warranted and appropriate if you read that person's comments in this thread. Rather than being a gratuitous slur, I was making the extremely relevant point that there is quite a loaded history of assigning religion or supposed 'racial characteristics' on the basis of physical characteristics. Of which Der Sturmer is only the most famous example.

ANd btw, Jimmah is correct about the use of the word wog in the UK. I am certain you are not aware of this, because I am certain you are not a racist, but although the word 'wog' sounds funny and humorous to Americans, in the UK it is the equivalent of the n word in the US. It can't be rehabilitated.

534 The Left  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 5:30:52am

re: #532 korla pundit

The UK government could make groups like this a lot less attractive by being less fascist itself, and keep its nose out of the pub business. If people weren't being prevented from drinking out of a real glass, playing darts, singing a song, listening to live music or playing a simple trivia game, maybe they would be too content to get sucked in by this kind of anger-based recruitment.

I assume this is some kind of joke. It's not as if the UK had fewer incidents of violence or racially charged or bigoted violence before. And by your own logic, wouldnt the change in closing hours a few years ago have led to 'a more contented populace'?
Sheesh.

535 jock_cagney  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 12:06:28pm

re: #534 iceweasel

Korla has a point in a roundabout sort of way.

The pubs that Korla talks about 'drinking out of a real glass, playing darts, singing a song, listening to live music or playing a simple trivia game' are the local traditional family run pubs and working mans clubs. The places were the heart of many a local working class community where everybody know each other and the younger and older generation were able to meet in a social context that would rarely happen even it is was just in these places for a few pints before the younger generation went to the clubs (disco's). They places were also properly run and no trouble whatsoever, the first sign and it's nipped in the bud.

The problem is that these places are dying out due to the smoking ban and other government regulation but also due to the policies of the government of allowing supermarkets selling alcohol at cut-prices where in some cases a can of beer is cheaper than a bottle of water (the supermarkets sell these at a loss in order to custom). The small family run pubs/Working mens clubs can't compete with the national pub chains like weatherspoons who's sell cut price drink in order to get volume. They are poorly run, where they sell alcohol to anybody now matter what state they are in, and are a cause of most the binge drinking induced violence you see in news reports in the major town and cities across the UK at the weekend.

While these old style pubs could never stamp out the need for 'anger-based recruitment', it did stop those 'angry young men' from getting bluttered out their brains and causing mayhem.

536 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 7, 2009 12:23:30pm
537 dag nabbitt  Tue, Sep 8, 2009 6:47:59am

re: #98 tradewind
Good article. The Telegraph recently had something similar:
www.telegraph.co.uk...]>Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent

Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe's Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.

538 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 8, 2009 9:52:54am

re: #537 dag nabbitt

That article is complete alarmist crap. But go ahead and hyperventilate all you like. You've been promoting this nonsense at LGF for months.

539 Dag Nabbitt  Tue, Sep 8, 2009 5:03:37pm

re: #538 Charles

I would respectfully disagree. That's actually a pretty moderate article, with caveats about projections, and no particular political endorsement. The author is not claiming that the "Muslims are taking over" Europe now, or anytime soon. He is, however, pointing out, correctly, that significant changes to European demography are underway, particularly in cities - changes with real implications for those societies and their policy makers.

As for my previously discussing Europe/immigration/Islam on LGF: I've posted on those topics because they interest and concern me. As an American (full disclosure: hometown - Hermosa Bch, H.S. - Mira Costa) who has lived and worked in Europe off and on for 9 of the past 16 years, I've seen for myself some of these developments - developments that inspire ranting and raving from outfits like "EDL", but also illuminating discussion from the likes of Bruce Bawer and a few others. In my very few LFG posts, I've tried to be polite and fact-based. I don't think I've spread nonsense anymore than Bawer has written two books of nonsense.

540 korla pundit  Tue, Sep 8, 2009 6:20:26pm

re: #535 jock_cagney

> Korla has a point in a roundabout sort of way.

Oh, let's not even get into those roundabouts. No wonder the Brits are a bit loony!

But seriously, I wasn't trying to say that letting people drink more would make them less prone to violence. I was pointing out one of many facets of centuries-old British culture that have come under assault from the Euro-weenie nanny state. People will feel threatened when their culture is slowly stripped away in favor of political correctness and "safety concern" over-regulation.

The nationalist right wing there is finding an increasingly sympathetic audience for their bile largely because people feel like their beloved England is being eroded by outside forces beyond their control. It makes them feel impotent, and at the same time, they are feeling the cumulative effect of decades of building multiculturalism, at the expense of their own tradition.

But the real culprit isn't Muslim women in burkas. It is faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.


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