President Obama Speaks on Health Care, the Post-Game
Politics • Views: 4,069
Here’s a second thread to discuss what just happened. Andrew Malcolm has posted the full text for us to pick over.
1248 comments
2 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:02:43pm |
Post-game?!
/opens tailgate, pulls out beer cooler
| 3 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:02:53pm |
| 4 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:02pm |
It's about to finish. Trying to stay ahead of the ball here.
| 5 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:07pm |
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
| 7 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:30pm |
Can't do live streaming at work...and youse guys are fast.
| 8 |
Maui Girl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:38pm |
re: #3 Dark_Falcon
No surprise there. Really? He's still talking? Is that over an hour?
| 12 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:49pm |
re: #2 Occasional Reader
Post-game?!
/opens tailgate, pulls out beer cooler
We need a troll to do some proper tailgating. We need a barbecue tonight.
| 15 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:07pm |
Reform is the ONLY issue - Single Payer Government run healthcare should not even be entertained
| 16 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:09pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
They have. Even Obama mentioned that they have.
(e.g., allow interstate competition for health insurance)
| 18 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:29pm |
re: #8 Maui Girl
No surprise there. Really? He's still talking? Is that over an hour?
Nope. Less than 50 minutes.
| 19 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:32pm |
Ten Reasons why I'm opposed to the health care and insurance reform plans in currently in congress and proposed by the President.
10) Imagine health care provided at the Department of Motor Vehicles.
9) The current proposals include provisions for health care record keeping and IRS for determinations of income and billing within the health care bureaucracy, financial and health information all accessible at a single point.
8) Health care and insurance are not perfect, some changes are necessary to fix those areas that need improvement. Improvements do not require wholesale destruction and remaking of 17% of the country's economy.
7) We can't afford it. $9 Trillion in deficits, $45 Trillion in unfunded Medicare mandates. Do we expect with reform the Federal Government will suddenly discover fiscal responsibility?
6) The Government is already spending and consuming too much The Government Consumes 45% of the GDP, Health Care is 17% of the GDP. Having Government consume 61% of the GDP will be untenable.
5) Obtaining health insurance / health care is a private contract. It is contract with a company and or individuals, private contracts are not within the prevue of the Federal Government.
4) The Federal Government is not authorized under the laws of establishing this Constitutional Republic to meddle in the health insurance / health care market place. Health insurance / health care is not an enumerated power and belongs to the States. Pass a Constitutional Amendment to take over health care.
3) Property: Health Insurance, obtaining health care is property. I take the product of my labor and exchange it with insurance companies and health care providers for health care.
2) Liberty: How I live my life, the choices I make, especially regarding my health care are my decisions, such decisions should not be under the scrutiny of the Federal Government.
1) Life: Health care directly affects my life, the length, and quality of my life. It is not subject to governmental interference.
| 20 |
Dahveed Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:34pm |
George Orwell, a man of the left, warned us that freedom and truth are not just endangered by easily identifiable goose-stepping goons in jackboots. More often he felt that state collectivism would come from an all-powerful government — run by a charismatic egalitarian, promising to protect us from selfish, greedy reactionaries.
| 21 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:40pm |
I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.
/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.
| 22 |
ThingFish Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:45pm |
| 23 |
freedomplow Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:46pm |
A little bit for everybody...
A true feel good.
| 24 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:50pm |
re: #4 Charles
It's about to finish. Trying to stay ahead of the ball here.
There were 57 iterations of the word "I".
/Hot Air mode off.
/
| 26 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:58pm |
Bush. War Tax cuts. Inherit. Blah. Ted Kennedy.
| 27 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:04pm |
re: #21 Racer X
I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.
/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.
You didn't miss anything that he didn't say over the past six months
| 28 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:04pm |
re: #21 Racer X
I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.
/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.
"Didn't sound horrible?!?"
RINO!
| 29 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:10pm |
If we had a nickel for every word out of his mouth, maybe then we could afford this.
/otherwise, we don't have $900 billion to spend
| 31 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:22pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
Getting rid of Medicare and Medicaid would be a nice start. They're the reason healthcare costs went out of control in the first place and they are both bankrupting us now.
| 32 |
Dar ul Harbarian Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:25pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
How about deregulation of the insurance industy? Getting rid of mandates? Malpractice reform? Tax code reform?
| 34 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:27pm |
| 35 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:30pm |
| 37 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:52pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
So how about implementing some of these alleged cost-saving measures for a year before writing checks against them? Every tax-and-spend socialist says that increases in spending will be paid for by "wringing efficiencies, cost-saving, fat-trimming", etc...
THE CAKE IS A LIE!
| 39 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:02pm |
RINO RINO RINO!
Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.
| 40 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:04pm |
re: #33 buzzsawmonkey
Obama, at the top of his rhetorical game, sounds great--wise, conciliatory, interested in opposing views. If only sound were substance.
But it's not. His history is that of saying something and doing the other--sometimes good, sometimes bad, but rarely does he say the thing he does, or do the thing he says. This will be no different.
I have to agree.
| 41 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:07pm |
He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.
| 43 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:12pm |
Anti-Obamacare ad on Foxnews. Seemed fairly good.
| 44 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:14pm |
re: #39 Charles
RINO RINO RINO!
Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.
| 45 |
Athos Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:23pm |
re: #21 Racer X
No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.
The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.
| 46 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:34pm |
Like I just said near the end of the last thread - I only heard a bit of it, but I could build a small island village out of all the strawmen I heard in just two short 3-minute bursts.
| 48 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:49pm |
re: #37 haakondahl
It would be good to see a model of the promised efficiency.
| 49 |
ladycatnip Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:56pm |
Sheesh, I'm exhausted after all that live-stream and posting.
A complete and total sales job for his snake oil. Didn't buy a word of it. He's too slick.
| 50 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:57pm |
re: #45 Athos
No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.
The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.
yup a real "line in the sand"
| 51 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:02pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
* * * *
HOPE you'll stick around for GOP's response by Dr. Boustany the heart surgeon from Louisiana.
| 52 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:02pm |
I was happy to hear malpractice reform is on the table, because one field it impacts greatly is OB/GYNs. It's very important to keep these doctors in business. When they can't afford their malpractice insurance- they close shop, and women lose.
| 55 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:06pm |
re: #32 Dar ul Harbarian
How about... Getting rid of mandates?
All MY dates have been with women, so I'm for it.
| 56 |
Diego Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:12pm |
Here comes the GOP asshat..erm, I mean answer...
| 57 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:18pm |
re: #41 Chekote
He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.
Ooh, what interruption?
| 58 |
HelloDare Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:26pm |
He kept referring to this plan. What plan? There is no plan right now. Not one that stands a chance of passing.
| 59 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:39pm |
I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.
| 60 |
ted Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:40pm |
re: #41 Chekote
He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.
Don't say that to Michelle...
| 61 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:44pm |
| 62 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:00pm |
re: #51 alegrias
* * * *
HOPE you'll stick around for GOP's response by Dr. Boustany the heart surgeon from Louisiana.
Where can I catch this online?
| 63 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:03pm |
So, has he truly sold America on the need to revise health care delivery in the country, where hundreds of millions of Americans have insurance (and wont have their plans change)? Is this truly a crisis of epic proportions that we must deal with now? How are we supposed to afford this slice of heaven, where all of our fears are assuaged and any doubts sown are the result of the evil GOP (Palin or Bush, you get to choose).
Seriously?
I don't think he got it done.
| 64 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:03pm |
re: #39 Charles
RINO RINO RINO!
Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.
Are those Black RINOS, White RINOS, Indian RINOS, Sumatran RINOS, OR Javan RINOS?
/kidding
| 65 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:11pm |
When do I find out if my small business is a hardship case?
I can't afford to pick up health care for everyone.
| 66 |
captdiggs Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:21pm |
Still one major flaw. New requirements and risks to insurance companies mean higher premiums. What stops insurance companies from taking a $600 per month premium to $3000...or whatever it could be?
| 67 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:22pm |
I don't want the gubment to get it right, I want them out of the way.
| 68 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:23pm |
re: #52 Sharmuta
I was happy to hear malpractice reform is on the table, because one field it impacts greatly is OB/GYNs. It's very important to keep these doctors in business. When they can't afford their malpractice insurance- they close shop, and women lose.
Yes, when they can't practice their 'love' with their patients.
| 69 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:25pm |
I thought he was awesome back in 2004 - then I listened and watched him over time ... ugh
| 70 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:31pm |
re: #57 haakondahl
The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.
| 72 |
Athos Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:32pm |
re: #63 lawhawk
Yep, it's such a crisis that the House plan doesn't kick into effect until 2013...
| 76 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:46pm |
re: #59 avanti
I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.
Yeah, because we all love Kennedy. Honeymoon with death is over.
| 77 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:57pm |
| 78 |
duck of peace Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:00pm |
Once again general platitudes and sincere, if not distinct optimism carries the day. I like his speaches, but its kind of hard to get behind something that holds about as much substance as a pane of glass.
| 79 |
Mike in Georgia Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:01pm |
It's 9/9/09 at 9:09PM ET Ovet to you Central.
| 81 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:10pm |
re: #70 Chekote
The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.
I don't think that was laughter.
| 82 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:11pm |
re: #45 Athos
No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.
The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.
And that's been a problem all along...heard any senators mention cap and trade?
| 83 |
ASU86PE Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:15pm |
My standard response to my Representatives:
I paid for my own appendectomy and I would do so again because I spent less on it than on all the medical coverage I would have spent prior to it and after.
I oppose mandatory coverage. I oppose no tort reform or tax reform for medical care and providers.
I did not hear how the plan will stop illegal aliens from receiving coverage.
I oppose this legislation and request that you do also.
| 84 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:19pm |
"53 new government bureaucracies". That is a good talking point.
| 85 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:20pm |
| 87 |
HelloDare Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:31pm |
The Republican reply is making sense so far. Not dynamic, but it's good.
| 89 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:41pm |
Hey Sharm, here come those Republican ideas.
| 92 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:43pm |
re: #49 ladycatnip
Sheesh, I'm exhausted after all that live-stream and posting.
A complete and total sales job for his snake oil. Didn't buy a word of it. He's too slick.
It sure proves the eye of the beholder line. I thought is was a fine speech, but will withhold judgment until I read the compromise bill.
| 93 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:52pm |
Hrmm - important point raised here,
It’s why so many aspiring entrepreneurs cannot afford to open a business in the first place, and why American businesses that compete internationally – like our automakers – are at a huge disadvantage. And it’s why those of us with health insurance are also paying a hidden and growing tax for those without it – about $1000 per year that pays for somebody else’s emergency room and charitable care.
One of the things that makes the table less than level when competing abroad is state supplied health care. It's a subsidy to their business' in countries with national health care systems. It's one of the weightier arguments for national health care systems. (Don't make the assumption however that I agree with it.)
| 94 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:53pm |
At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.
| 98 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:03pm |
re: #91 buzzsawmonkey
I still do not see how the government deficit is going to increase if the government does not take on the expense of assuring affordable health care for everyone, and policing the non-public options.
New math
| 99 |
KingKenrod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:13pm |
By starting late, Obama forced the GOP response into the next hour.
Probably lots of people flipping around for something to watch...
| 100 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:14pm |
Just hit the tip jar,didn't know it was there. Thanks Charles!
| 101 |
Ojoe Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:18pm |
Pray tell why could not these 'problems' be addressed with small incremental changes and tweakings to the existing system?
It is a symptom of big ego on the part of BHO, the Democratic party, and politicians in general that this is presented to the nation as an 'overall sweeping reform.'
And see how far that really gets us. It gets an argument and a fight.
It does not quietly result in real improvements.
That would be the mark of an effective leader.
The which we do not have right now.
| 103 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:24pm |
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
| 104 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:37pm |
Grover Norquist - FOXNews.com - September 09, 2009
GROVER NORQUIST: We Don't Need Another Post Officere: #80 Sharmuta
Srsly- wtf?
Americans wanted Obama to change Washington. Obama wants to use Washington to change America
It's a quote, from W, I think.
| 105 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:43pm |
re: #74 Sharmuta
What?
My bad, who was it that said something about OB/GYN's not being able to practice their love with their patients? I forget.
| 106 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:48pm |
re: #70 Chekote
The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.
I thought that laughter/heckling was rude, actually. He IS the President.
| 107 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:57pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
Why does it have to be paid for by the taxpayer?
| 108 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:00pm |
| 109 |
cronus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:02pm |
If the notion of "death panels" is a lie (and I believe it is) than the President's assertion that the proposals his party are deficit neutral is equally untrue.
| 110 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:07pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
ULTRA-RINO!
| 111 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:07pm |
Did I miss the part where the Congress and Senate will be covered under the same program? I must of cat-napped during the tort reform also.
| 112 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:08pm |
Okay. He decided to move furniture while the guy is speaking.
| 113 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:14pm |
| 114 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:18pm |
re: #76 haakondahl
Yeah, because we all love Kennedy. Honeymoon with death is over.
You can dislike the man, but he was effective on the hill.
| 115 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:18pm |
re: #89 Occasional Reader
Hey Sharm, here come those Republican ideas.
Indeed. And he's hitting the malpractice and buy insurance across state lines points. And he is talking about the GOP's ideas.
| 116 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:21pm |
re: #105 sngnsgt
Well- women's health may be a joke for some people, but it's a serious issue.
| 117 |
Diego Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:31pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
Here, here. Well stated.
| 119 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:47pm |
re: #105 sngnsgt
My bad, who was it that said something about OB/GYN's not being able to practice their love with their patients? I forget.
I think it was W.
| 120 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:51pm |
re: #94 Charles
At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.
I think the rebuttal was pretty good. Showed an open spirit, etc.
| 122 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:00pm |
| 123 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:01pm |
| 124 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:05pm |
Just turned off Fox News.
Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.
I know. I'm a RINO!
| 125 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:15pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
It's easy.
1. Tort reform.
2. Insurance reform. Allow people to purchase any policy that fits their needs from any company operating in the USA.
3. Government reform. Put individuals and companies on a level playing field. All medical expenses should be tax deductible, including insurance payments.
| 126 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:20pm |
re: #94 Charles
At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.
Agreed. This guy did a decent job and he kept it short. Short, smart, and to the point is the best way to rebut.
| 128 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:37pm |
I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.
| 131 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:45pm |
re: #114 avanti
You can dislike the man, but he was effective on the hill.
And working for the wrong God-Damned team. Which is why bringing him up is not, despite what you think, an effective way to get Republicans involved.
| 133 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:11pm |
I was expecting this rebuttal to be a total train wreck. I'm glad I was wrong about that.
The "cross state line" thing was shot down by Krauthammer though. Not going to work unless there is a national regulatory body, not 50 separate ones. He shouldn't have brought that up.
| 134 |
Digital Display Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:16pm |
Mixed review..Some low points..The POTOS being hecked in Congress? Wierd
I don't recall even in the depths of Iraq I don't recall Bush being called a liar from the back of the room...Real class...
I'm not sure if Obama hit it out..It was up and down for me..I wonder how the Senior citizens take this...They really control this debate..
Here come the talking heads...
| 135 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:19pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
I was actually kinda swayed a little bit and thinking maybe Obama has a good point.
But then I read this post, and I changed my mind back.
| 136 |
HelloDare Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:26pm |
re: #94 Charles
At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.
Now Charles, he only witnessed an exorcism. He didn't perform the exorcism. Unfortunately, he left his special exorcism hat at home.
| 137 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:37pm |
re: #128 Coracle
I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.
Pssst. Don't tell anybody, but I thought it was a pretty good speech too. RINO.
| 138 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:37pm |
re: #124 Charles
Just turned off Fox News.
Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.
I know. I'm a RINO!
I'm actually looking forward to hearing O'Reilly on this issue. He's sometimes wrong, but never dull.
| 141 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:03pm |
D@mn these threads are moving at lightening speed! Turbo hamsters are working great!
| 142 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:12pm |
re: #137 Charles
Pssst. Don't tell anybody, but I thought it was a pretty good speech too. RINO.
Just join the independents once and for all. We could use a man like you.
| 143 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:15pm |
re: #128 Coracle
I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.
What plan?
/where can I get a copy?
| 145 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:22pm |
... was Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC), according to my colleague Patrick O'Connor.
Addison Graves Wilson, Sr., usually known as Faggy Joe Wilson (born July 31, 1947) is a Republican politician from the U.S. state of South Carolina
| 146 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:27pm |
Does anybody know just what exactly the President was selling tonight? I know I heard a lot of promises, did you?
A good salesman sells himself first.
But then what?
"where's the beef"!
| 147 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:29pm |
re: #141 ggt
D@mn these threads are moving at lightening speed! Turbo hamsters are working great!
Meth.
| 148 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:30pm |
HELLAVA SPEECH! I can't say that I believe much of what he said; much of it appeared to be smoke and mirrors (won't increase the deficit "one dime"? Really?) but HELLUVA SPEECH!
And what's was that about "inheriting a $1 trillion deficit"?
| 150 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:34pm |
re: #134 HoosierHoops
Mixed review..Some low points..The POTOS being hecked in Congress? Wierd
I don't recall even in the depths of Iraq I don't recall Bush being called a liar from the back of the room...Real class...
I'm not sure if Obama hit it out..It was up and down for me..I wonder how the Senior citizens take this...They really control this debate..
Here come the talking heads...
Seriously. Whoever did that should be identified. That was a low-class move to heckle him.
| 151 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:39pm |
Could Obama have gone a completely different route and achieved much of what the left intended? Absolutely.
It's called incrementalism.
Take the big problem of health care reform, and divide it up into separate issues. Allow insurance plans to be bought across state lines - see how that increases coverage and reduces costs.
By throwing everything into one basket, it sets up for a big fail, because everyone is pulling in different directions, and expectations on the left are so high that they're guaranteed to be disappointed by anything less than the whole thing - and they'll fight to get all they can to the exclusion of something less.
| 152 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:39pm |
re: #133 ArchangelMichael
A national insurance regulatory body might be preferable to 53 other new bureaucracies.
| 153 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:41pm |
re: #125 Wendya
It's easy.
1. Tort reform.
2. Insurance reform. Allow people to purchase any policy that fits their needs from any company operating in the USA.
3. Government reform. Put individuals and companies on a level playing field. All medical expenses should be tax deductible, including insurance payments.
Ummm he seemed to say those very things...
| 154 |
ASU86PE Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:46pm |
re: #125 Wendya
That would have saved us two hours...if you had been POTUS
| 155 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:50pm |
re: #59 avanti
I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.
Gee, maybe he'll actually meet with the republicans and congress will actually have an open debate.
| 156 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:51pm |
re: #143 Killian Bundy
What plan?
/where can I get a copy?
You're cute when you're trying to be cynical.
| 157 |
Diego Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:54pm |
re: #133 ArchangelMichael
I was expecting this rebuttal to be a total train wreck. I'm glad I was wrong about that.
The "cross state line" thing was shot down by Krauthammer though. Not going to work unless there is a national regulatory body, not 50 separate ones. He shouldn't have brought that up.
It was by a BIRTHER who's been sued for malpractice 3 times and tried to buy a lordship in a scam. YOU CAN'T BUY A LORDSHIP! lol
| 158 |
Idle Drifter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:55pm |
| 159 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:58pm |
re: #146 The Shadow Do
Does anybody know just what exactly the President was selling tonight? I know I heard a lot of promises, did you?
A good salesman sells himself first.
But then what?
"where's the beef"!
Selling government control of your life is not an easy product to convince you to buy
| 161 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:06pm |
Obama needs to stop the sob stories and provide details on how his plan is going to achieve his outlined goals.
| 162 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:08pm |
We don't live in America any more. We all live in a ward of Chicago.
| 163 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:08pm |
Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.
| 164 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:10pm |
| 165 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:13pm |
I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".
I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.
What does that make me?
| 166 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:17pm |
re: #139 haakondahl
No links? Having no luck finding
* * * *
Dr. Boustany's GOP response to the President's Address speech is over but perhaps you can google it or check the GOP's website. Sorry I don't have this info for you.
| 168 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:44pm |
re: #165 Mr Pancakes
I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".
I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.
What does that make me?
A ... rational person?
| 169 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:51pm |
re: #165 Mr Pancakes
I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".
I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.
What does that make me?
A delicious stack of pancakes?
| 170 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:52pm |
re: #124 Charles
Just turned off Fox News.
Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.
I know. I'm a RINO!
I have to watch it. If the whole panel does not hate the speech, it's a slam dunk.
| 171 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:53pm |
There is no plan. There is no consensus. He really set himself up by saying that he would not sign anything that raises the deficit. Held true to his word, that means he couldn't ever sign anything that comes out of Congress. Ever.
| 172 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:56pm |
| 173 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:02pm |
re: #144 buzzsawmonkey
When Obama said he'd just received a letter from Ted Kennedy, I figured it was the Postal Service's dilatory delivery--which is not a great argument for government-run healthcare.
** * * *
You so wicked! Wicked funny & right on.
| 174 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:03pm |
The interesting thing about the speech is how it was laid out. A challenge to congress, shout outs and beat downs to both sides. I think what this also does is allow him to say "See I tried" if congress fails him.
I am wagering this will not pass if at all until late in year, and if it does it will be vastly different and diminished from the start point.
It also sets up a "we tried for health care, but those evil R's stopped us" meme for next year's election cycle if it doesn't pass.
| 176 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:09pm |
re: #124 Charles
Just turned off Fox News.
Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.
I know. I'm a RINO!
Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.
| 177 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:10pm |
re: #129 Sharmuta
So easy, even a caveman could do it?
We know what the problem is.
Getting congress to fix it for us instead of imposing more problems on us is the issue.
| 179 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:13pm |
One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen
| 180 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:13pm |
re: #135 Racer X
I was actually kinda swayed a little bit and thinking maybe Obama has a good point.
But then I read this post, and I changed my mind back.
How is that?
| 181 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:28pm |
re: #176 jorline
Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.
No thanks. Not interested in that either.
| 182 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:31pm |
re: #153 LudwigVanQuixote
Ummm he seemed to say those very things...
Were you listening to the same speech?
| 183 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:35pm |
re: #163 Izzyboy
Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.
Heard it with my own ears- took him back a bit.
| 184 |
Ojoe Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:39pm |
re: #165 Mr Pancakes
Well I don't know, but I do know there are too many labels out there.
| 185 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:40pm |
re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist
I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.
| 186 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:44pm |
re: #179 DrNaughty
One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen
Except thad he did.
| 187 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:44pm |
re: #179 DrNaughty
One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen
And that might be a benefit to the gop, actually.
| 188 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:46pm |
re: #21 Racer X
I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.
/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.
It wasn't horrible. Stunning- he removed any hint of saying the words "public option".
He's a good speaker, he moved to the middle with a wink to the left.
I doubt he really understands what choice and competition and free markets are.
I personally do not truth him or the progressives who want to make this about taxing one sector to pay for another. But clearly the American people do not want his original version of government run health care - and he caves somewhat.
| 189 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:13pm |
re: #168 Charles
A ... rational person?
I like that better than RINO... thanks!
4 year wait though... damn.
| 190 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:15pm |
re: #157 Diego
I made no judgement on the person, simply what was said. I was expecting him to come out and say a bunch of asinine things ala Bobby Jindal. He didn't other than 1 point.
| 191 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:17pm |
re: #150 Gus 802
Seriously. Whoever did that should be identified. That was a low-class move to heckle him.
* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?
| 192 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:24pm |
I want to see the bill.
See if rhetoric matches the text.
HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.
| 194 |
Reginald Perrin Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:38pm |
Regardless of your position on the content of the speech, the President showed tonight that he can deliver a speech with clarity and passion. If anything this will put to sleep the teleprompter talking point once and for all.
I am confident I have finally earned my first downdings with this comment
/
| 195 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:44pm |
| 197 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:57pm |
re: #182 Wendya
Were you listening to the same speech?
Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?
What was that about cutting wasteful spending?
What was that about tort reform?
| 198 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:01pm |
| 199 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:09pm |
re: #33 buzzsawmonkey
Obama, at the top of his rhetorical game, sounds great--wise, conciliatory, interested in opposing views. If only sound were substance.
But it's not. His history is that of saying something and doing the other--sometimes good, sometimes bad, but rarely does he say the thing he does, or do the thing he says. This will be no different.
Now there's a first. A president "saying something and doing the other." First time in American history.
| 200 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:19pm |
re: #191 alegrias
* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?
Shouting during a President's speech is disrespectful and obnoxious. You can pick a more effective time to show your patriotism.
| 201 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:19pm |
It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"
And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.
| 202 |
HelloDare Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:21pm |
Okay, let's say you like everything Obama said he'd do. Why in hell would you believe him?
| 203 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:22pm |
re: #165 Mr Pancakes
I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".
I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.
What does that make me?
A guy hoping for free health care?
| 205 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:37pm |
re: #192 jcm
I want to see the bill.
See if rhetoric matches the text.
HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.
So true.
| 206 |
Athos Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:42pm |
re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah, what was that about tort reform? Recall any specifics?
| 207 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:44pm |
re: #185 Killgore Trout
I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.
Again? We had you back? You must have crept back in while we were all sleeping.
| 209 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:51pm |
re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?
What was that about cutting wasteful spending?
What was that about tort reform?
It's called a bullshit lie.
| 210 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:06pm |
| 211 |
Electron Shuffler Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:08pm |
I was not watching or listening.
Seems to be another sales pitch to me.
From what I've read here.
All huff and puff. I'll wait and see.
| 212 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:13pm |
re: #163 Izzyboy
Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.
That crap is uncalled for and rude before a Joint Session of Congress. That said, I think we need an American versions of "Questions for the Prime Minister".
| 213 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:19pm |
It all comes down to specifics.
i like what Obama said.
I did not see those things in the different bills running around the halls of congress.
When did barney frank sign off on tort reform?
| 214 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:22pm |
re: #191 alegrias
* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?
You seriously think that was ever applied to members of the Legislature yelling 'you lie' at the President on the floor of the House, or should have been?
| 215 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:23pm |
re: #185 Killgore Trout
I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.
Dramatic.
| 216 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:29pm |
re: #163 Izzyboy
Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.
And that was a Dem?
The GOP is turning into mean school kids... It will ultimately backfire.
| 218 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:30pm |
re: #191 alegrias
* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?
I don't know. What happened to it? That's not the issue. The issue is that it happened in a televised joint session of congress.
| 219 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:31pm |
re: #201 Charles
It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"
And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.
Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.
| 220 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:42pm |
re: #192 jcm
I want to see the bill.
See if rhetoric matches the text.
HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.
Same here - makes it hard to believe what he says - reenforces distrust.
| 222 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:46pm |
re: #192 jcm
I want to see the bill.
See if rhetoric matches the text.
HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.
What's changed?
| 223 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:49pm |
re: #194 Reginald Perrin
Regardless of your position on the content of the speech, the President showed tonight that he can deliver a speech with clarity and passion. If anything this will put to sleep the teleprompter talking point once and for all.
I am confident I have finally earned my first downdings with this comment
/
He was using a teleprompter.
| 224 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:51pm |
re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar
It's called a bullshit lie.
Right because it could not be anything else. Unbelievable.
| 225 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:57pm |
re: #145 Killgore Trout
I was scolded for pointing out that sort of heckling, was it common when Bush spoke ? Not being a smart ass, I may have just missed it. The cheer/boo thing I get is common enough, but the liar and the "what bill?" sign was new if I recall.
| 227 |
badtemper Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:01pm |
To all fans of the speech tonight: Please remember who he is and what he represents. I always try to judge a person by their actions, not their words.
Inspirational speech? Maybe.
But so far, I'm not impressed.
| 228 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:08pm |
re: #219 Killgore Trout
Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.
I don't think they ever did.
| 229 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:24pm |
re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?
What was that about cutting wasteful spending?
What was that about tort reform?
Talk is cheap.
/let's see it on paper
| 230 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:25pm |
re: #189 Mr Pancakes
I like that better than RINO... thanks!
4 year wait though... damn.
Just in time the the next election...who would have thought.
| 231 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:32pm |
re: #176 jorline
Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.
No thanks. I don't enjoy leg tingles.
| 232 |
Electron Shuffler Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:36pm |
I was not watching or listening.
What was Nancy's blink rate?
| 233 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:39pm |
re: #225 avanti
I was scolded for pointing out that sort of heckling, was it common when Bush spoke ? Not being a smart ass, I may have just missed it. The cheer/boo thing I get is common enough, but the liar and the "what bill?" sign was new if I recall.
I don't recall it either.
| 234 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:45pm |
| 235 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:45pm |
re: #224 Coracle
Right because it could not be anything else. Unbelievable.
Your right. The government is so good at...
| 236 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:51pm |
re: #213 karmic_inquisitor
It all comes down to specifics.
i like what Obama said.
I did not see those things in the different bills running around the halls of congress.
When did barney frank sign off on tort reform?
Obama didn't sign off on tort reform. He danced around the issue.
| 237 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:12pm |
re: #210 Occasional Reader
So only irrational people oppose ObamaCare? Really?
Come on, man. You're better than that. You know that's not what I said or even implied.
| 239 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:20pm |
re: #180 LudwigVanQuixote
How is that?
The spittle was flying all over the place. "Parasites"; "Fat Cats"; "Profits".
Sheesh.
I honestly liked the speech. I'm leaning towards giving Obama a chance at this one.
One big question:
WHAT HAPPENS IF IT FAILS TO LOWER COSTS, AND ACTUALLY RAISES HEALTH CARE COSTS FOR EVERYONE? WHAT IF OUR TAXES GET RAISED EVEN HIGHER TO PAY FOR THIS?
What do we do then? Can we go back to private? Or will it be way too late to go back?
| 240 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:20pm |
re: #183 Bobibutu
Heard it with my own ears- took him back a bit.
How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/
| 241 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:24pm |
re: #201 Charles
Agreed. But I must admit is was fun to see Pelosi's face.
| 242 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:26pm |
re: #192 jcm
I want to see the bill.
See if rhetoric matches the text.
HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.
I agree.
(After listening to the speech, I now need an antidote. Perhaps I'll go watch a movie. Yeah, Yojimbo would work just FINE!)
| 243 |
Ojoe Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:32pm |
re: #228 Charles
In the run up to the Civil War there were beatings on the floor of congress, beatings from one member upon another.
| 244 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:35pm |
I would rate the speech in the range of effective to highly effective. (I know... RINO!) That said, the devil is always in the details red dress behind him...
| 245 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:41pm |
Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.
| 246 |
media_man Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:48pm |
Obama glossed over the concerns of most Americans by calling is dupes and liars. I don't think he helped his cause, rather he came off as offended that anyone could dare disagree with him.
He called people who say he will form death panels as shameless and then went into detail about how he's going to pay for all of this by cutting waste in Medicare. What is waste in Medicare? Paying for heart operations for 80 somethings? Advanced cancer drugs for seniors (but only work 25% of the time)? Call these panels whatever you like, they will be making life & death decisions, & if you don't like it, tough. It will be the only game in town (after Obama destroys private insurance).
| 248 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:18pm |
re: #219 Killgore Trout
Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.
But protestors did it, which is the same as a member of Congress doing it, so Mr. Wilson is just paying the Democrats back.
///
| 249 |
karmic_inquisitor Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:22pm |
He pressed the reset button. Now show me the money.
| 250 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:31pm |
| 251 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:33pm |
And the president did give a good speech. When he's in that sort of set-piece situation, Barack Obama always does well. In a fluid situation, not so much.
| 252 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:37pm |
re: #219 Killgore Trout
Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.
They didn't. They generally sat stone faced or with the look of a child pouting through all of GWBs speeches. Sometimes there were some muffled boos.
| 253 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:40pm |
re: #240 avanti
How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/
very un-classy. he let his audience handle it. They did.
| 254 |
bushleague Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:45pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.
| 255 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:45pm |
| 256 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:00pm |
| 257 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:04pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
I agree that folks have an obligation to lend a hand to those less fortunate than we are. I think the decision as to when and how much lies best with each person, not the government.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
also agree our system is flawed. I do not trust that this plan under this Congress is the proper "fix" for those flaws. I also think there are problems than can be alleviated now, without having to wait four years. And I am amazed at being told that this plan will not be in place for another 4 years, after being told that it is so critically important to "fix" our system we should have just sat back an allowed the proposed bill to go through without anyone even reading it.
| 258 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:08pm |
re: #236 Wendya
Obama didn't sign off on tort reform. He danced around the issue.
You don't think a Democrat opening the door isn't a good enough start? He has to walk through it without any plan? Nice.
| 259 |
Reginald Perrin Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:11pm |
re: #223 Wendya
Of course he was using a teleprompter...but he was delivering the speech with passion and was not just fumbling through it by reading the words from on the screen. He wasn't an empty suit tonight.
| 260 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:14pm |
How much has he cut in Medicare? What's been stopping him from doing that?
| 261 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:16pm |
re: #246 media_man
I don't think he came off offended. He can off unsure of himself. This guys is in over his head. That's why he keeps farming stuff over to Pelosi. All he knows to do is talk. That's all he has done all his life.
| 262 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:23pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
I don't think anyone is oppossed to reform of some sort. It's the method on which we disagree.
It seems that the insurance (risk management) model isn't working. It is not designed to work for the entire population. That would be something more akin to mom and dad's checkbook. I don't think we want the goverment to be that either. I don't know the answer. I don't think there is one.
The bottom line is that health care is a black hole. It will always cost money, more and more money. It's not like roads or bridges --once built the major cost are over --general upkeep and in a few years you have to build/rebuild. Health costs are constant and ever growing.
| 264 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:31pm |
re: #185 Killgore Trout
I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.
*burppp*
| 265 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:33pm |
re: #216 LudwigVanQuixote
What the GOP Rep did was uncalled for. It wasn't the time or place to do it - period.
Ummm.. .as opposed to Democrats calling for articles of impeachment with President Bush over a policy dispute? Sorry, but the fact is that both parties are so far down in the gutter that to claim that one side has a corner on high mindedness is obscene. Oh, and those Democrats who were screaming impeachment, and looking the other way as their supporters went troofer, are now the folks in power.
| 266 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:35pm |
re: #237 Charles
Come on, man. You're better than that. You know that's not what I said or even implied.
Then I need it 'splained. I find the idea that "I liked Obama's speech and I hope he pulls it off" is a needed qualification to being "a rational person"... surprising.
| 267 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:51pm |
Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?
| 268 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:00pm |
I liked the part where Obama demagogued the Republicans on a variety of issues and strawmen, then turned and lamented the demagoguery of the Republicans on the Medicare issue.
| 269 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:08pm |
re: #251 Dark_Falcon
And the president did give a good speech. When he's in that sort of set-piece situation, Barack Obama always does well. In a fluid situation, not so much.
I agree that as speech-making, it was good.
| 270 |
The Curmudgeon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:14pm |
Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?
| 271 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:23pm |
re: #157 Diego
It was by a BIRTHER who's been sued for malpractice 3 times and tried to buy a lordship in a scam. YOU CAN'T BUY A LORDSHIP! lol
Actually, you can.
Sometimes the title is attached to a piece of land; buy the property, you get the title.
| 272 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:23pm |
"You like our Medicare - we are just gonna give everyone a little more."
Thanks daddy!
| 273 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:24pm |
re: #257 reine.de.tout
That's a good point, Reine. Some people can't wait 4 years.
| 276 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:32pm |
Why can't he start fighting Medicare fraud now? Isn't illegal now?
| 277 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:34pm |
re: #267 haakondahl
Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?
Why doesn't he enact policies to root out the graft now ?
| 278 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:34pm |
re: #243 Ojoe
In the run up to the Civil War there were beatings on the floor of congress, beatings from one member upon another.
I would just as soon not have those days return. The beatings or the Civil War, one.
| 279 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:45pm |
re: #254 bushleague
Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.
Then you are in the minority. As someone with seven relatives who are all practicing MD's, I have heard more horror stories about the insurance system in this nation than I can easily count.
| 280 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:47pm |
re: #245 Killgore Trout
Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.
Somebody find Killgore a BIGGER brush.
| 281 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:53pm |
I was not Wow'd by the speech. There was nothing new in it that I noticed. It was the same old argument in front of a big audience.
The thing that scares me is giving the government some control of a large part of the economy. After seeing how bad the clunker program went I can't imagine them running health care.
| 282 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:54pm |
re: #256 SanFranciscoZionist
Who doesn't? Seriously, for something like this?
Exactly. So this hardly serves as proof that he is not TP-dependent.
| 283 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:56pm |
re: #267 haakondahl
Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?
And perpetual motion adheres to the laws of physics.
| 284 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:01pm |
re: #263 buzzsawmonkey
The fluid situation begins immediately after the speech echoes die away.
You should have gone before we left the house.
| 285 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:02pm |
| 287 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm |
Ok...I'm for healthcare reform...as long as it can be put in a bill of 30 pages or less...without the need of a lawyer/lexicographer to translate it.
| 288 |
Ojoe Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm |
Previous worse behavior in congress:
On the morning of May 21, Preston Brooks arrived at the Capitol, carrying a walking stick. He hoped to attack Sumner, but did not locate him.
The following day, May 22, proved fateful. After trying to find Sumner outside the Capitol, Brooks entered the building and walked into the Senate chamber. Sumner sat at his desk, writing letters.
Violence on the Floor of the Senate
Brooks hesitated before approaching Sumner, as several women were present in the Senate gallery. After the women left, Brooks walked to Sumner’s desk, and reportedly said: “You have libeled my state and slandered my relation, who is aged and absent. And I feel it to be my duty to punish you.”
With that, Brooks struck the seated Sumner across the head with his heavy cane. Sumner, who was quite tall, could not get to his feet as his legs were trapped under his Senate desk, which was bolted to the floor. Brooks continued raining blows with the cane upon Sumner, who tried to fend them off with his arms. Sumner finally was able to break the desk free with his thighs, and staggered down the aisle of the Senate.
Brooks followed him, breaking the cane over Sumner’s head and continuing to strike him with pieces of the cane. The entire attack probably lasted for a full minute, and left Sumner dazed and bleeding. Carried into a Capitol anteroom, Sumner was attended by a doctor, who administered stitches to close wounds on his head.
Brooks was soon arrested on a charge of assault, and was quickly released on bail.
Link
| 289 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm |
re: #267 haakondahl
Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?
Me.
| 290 |
TMF Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:07pm |
I like the fact that someone screamed "liar"
Maybe it will draw the average viewers attention to the fact that Obama is, for the most part, LYING
| 291 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:14pm |
He can show us in the next four years about how he can save all that money.
| 292 |
huckfunn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:15pm |
re: #249 karmic_inquisitor
He pressed the reset button. Now show me the money.
He'll show you the borrowed, printed money on which the next 3 generations will have to service the debt.
| 293 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:17pm |
If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.
| 295 |
right_wing2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:19pm |
One partial solution would be to allow insurance companies to sell policies across state lines.
We also need to look at letting people purchase 'catastrophic only' coverage. My car insurance doesn't cover oil changes or new tires, so why should health insurance cover every sore throat? Tort reform is badly needed. Competition needs to be opened up.
And if pre-existing conditions have to be covered, can I hold off on buying the comp/collision coverage for my car until after an accident?
Say 'No' to Obamacare! Say 'Yes' to reform.
| 296 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:20pm |
re: #270 The Curmudgeon
Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?
Well, apparently Killgore Trout switched parties because of it.
| 298 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:31pm |
re: #265 lawhawk
What the GOP Rep did was uncalled for. It wasn't the time or place to do it - period.
Ummm.. .as opposed to Democrats calling for articles of impeachment with President Bush over a policy dispute? Sorry, but the fact is that both parties are so far down in the gutter that to claim that one side has a corner on high mindedness is obscene. Oh, and those Democrats who were screaming impeachment, and looking the other way as their supporters went troofer, are now the folks in power.
Thank you!
| 299 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:49pm |
re: #232 Electron Shuffler
I was not watching or listening.
What was Nancy's blink rate?
Not bad, I think she had an injection of lidocaine in her eyelids prior to the speech to avoid seizures in epileptics in the audience.
(FYI I have seizures, so don't give me crap about being uncharitable, OK?)
| 300 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:54pm |
re: #293 Sharmuta
If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.
Because that dosen't lead to government control of your life
| 301 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:02pm |
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
| 302 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:18pm |
re: #245 Killgore Trout
Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.
How so?
| 303 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:19pm |
re: #277 DrNaughty
Why doesn't he enact policies to root out the graft now ?
re: #37 haakondahl
So how about implementing some of these alleged cost-saving measures for a year before writing checks against them? Every tax-and-spend socialist says that increases in spending will be paid for by "wringing efficiencies, cost-saving, fat-trimming", etc...
THE CAKE IS A LIE!
| 304 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:25pm |
re: #301 Occasional Reader
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
profits are a bad thing to a leftist
| 305 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:32pm |
re: #246 media_man
and just as soon as they are formed someone's going to put Sarah's son in front of one of those death panels so they can send him to the fema death camp for the elderly...
//
| 306 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:36pm |
re: #296 haakondahl
Well, apparently Killgore Trout switched parties because of it.
no one switched...these types of speeches only re-enforces what you already think of him.
| 307 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:41pm |
re: #257 reine.de.tout
also agree our system is flawed. I do not trust that this plan under this Congress is the proper "fix" for those flaws. I also think there are problems than can be alleviated now, without having to wait four years. And I am amazed at being told that this plan will not be in place for another 4 years, after being told that it is so critically important to "fix" our system we should have just sat back an allowed the proposed bill to go through without anyone even reading it.
You can't have it both ways.
He has proposed emergency measures soonest - like McCain's idea for those with pre-existing conditions, and a panel of actual health experts to do it right. I am all for the idea of having non-partisan experts (who actually know what they are talking abu0t) do the thinking on this. Call that elitist.
| 308 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:44pm |
re: #253 Bobibutu
very un-classy. he let his audience handle it. They did.
It was a sarcastic joke, even though I'm sure the thought crossed Obama mind,
| 310 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:50pm |
Well, at least they'll never get the "public option" through the Senate.
/that's a start
| 312 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:53pm |
"I didn't get a harumph outa that guy!"
| 313 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:55pm |
re: #219 Killgore Trout
Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.
They just threw their shoes at him.
//
| 314 |
wee fury Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:02pm |
The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.
| 315 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:09pm |
re: #294 Kilroy
Can someone tell me where his PLAN is posted.
Give them a couple of days to come up with something. Really, it's too much you ask.
| 316 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:25pm |
I'm going to step back for a few minutes. I need to eat and things are moving too fast right now to post and eat at the same time.
| 317 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:40pm |
re: #293 Sharmuta
If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.
He said that was one of the immediate action items to be pushed through and gave McCain props for it.
| 318 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:41pm |
re: #301 Occasional Reader
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
Profits at the cost of care? Insurance companies do have a fine line to walk. Is there nothing wrong with reminding - and making - them take that balance seriously?
| 319 |
Bubbaman Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:43pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
OK, I'll buy some of your points, but here's where we depart. Our medical "system" as you call it is rife with flaws, but what is the overreaching imperative for a massive recreation of a system that most people are happy with? Why didn't the administration choose to figure out a way to provide health care for the "uninsured" rather than trying to create a nationalized health system? Why are we focusing solely on the health care system and not other equally important sectors, namely our failing legal system, deteriorating infrastructure, struggling education systems, etc.? And if health care is so important (and I personally think it is), then why should we ramrod a bill through Congress in a minimal amount of time and without significant scrutiny?
I don't think anyone would take exception with holding people accountable, but this doesn't even occur in our own government. Now you expect them to make fat cats accountable?
With respect to making the health care market competitive, that's the exact solution that many free market thinkers believe will be the ultimate solution. Open the health care insurance market across the country, make companies compete for business the way auto insurance companies do. Obama has never advocated free market solutions and in fact has stated that he favors a single payer system, i.e. government health care.
I agree with your other premises.
| 320 |
captdiggs Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:43pm |
Obama is all about speeches, and this was a good one.
There's still a lot of glaring holes in the *plan*.
But the basic humanistic premises are undeniable.
| 321 |
Silvergirl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:46pm |
re: #19 jcm
Ten Reasons why I'm opposed to the health care and insurance reform plans in currently in congress and proposed by the President.
You're just from that big fat Party of No.
/
| 322 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:05pm |
re: #288 Ojoe
“You have libeled my state"
We need more of these kinds of politicians, who care about their constituents.
| 323 |
Athos Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:08pm |
re: #314 wee fury
I hope his constituients remind him of that next November.
If he were my Congressman, he would no longer get my vote or support.
| 324 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:09pm |
re: #314 wee fury
The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.
I completely agree.
| 325 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:11pm |
re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote
He said that was one of the immediate action items to be pushed through and gave McCain props for it.
Thanks- I missed about half the speech.
| 326 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:18pm |
re: #290 TMF
I like the fact that someone screamed "liar"
Maybe it will draw the average viewers attention to the fact that Obama is, for the most part, LYING
It was inappropriate. But a powerful political statement that may well do just that..
| 327 |
bushleague Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:19pm |
re: #314 wee fury
The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.
How can you tell them apart? (Kennedy constituent checking in...)
| 328 |
Digital Display Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:22pm |
After the Talking heads..I still have mixed reviews about the effectness..Like Rove said he was good in the beginning and good at the end...
I still feel the seniors will drive this debate...In 48 hours we will see what happens..
| 329 |
ArchangelMichael Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:24pm |
re: #295 right_wing2
We also need to look at letting people purchase 'catastrophic only' coverage. My car insurance doesn't cover oil changes or new tires, so why should health insurance cover every sore throat?
This is what I've been saying for years. No one wants to hear it. Car insurance would cost about 10 to 15 times higher a year too if you were going to use it for everything that goes wrong with your car including preventative maintenance.
| 330 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:27pm |
re: #200 Coracle
Shouting during a President's speech is disrespectful and obnoxious. You can pick a more effective time to show your patriotism.
I'd also hope to see better behavior from members of Congress than some random constituent...
| 331 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:33pm |
re: #270 The Curmudgeon
Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?
Not really. I still think it's a pile of small problems that add up to a big mess. The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.
| 332 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:34pm |
re: #310 Killian Bundy
Well, at least they'll never get the "public option" through the Senate.
/that's a start
In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.
How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?
Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.
| 333 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:40pm |
re: #301 Occasional Reader
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
That's because profit is the spawn of Satan.
| 334 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:44pm |
re: #320 captdiggs
Obama is all about speeches, and this was a good one.
There's still a lot of glaring holes in the *plan*.
But the basic humanistic premises are undeniable.
What we will see is a 2 or 3 day bounce of support with a MASSIVE leftist push for this plan.
By this time next week I suspect we an put a fork in it.
| 335 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:44pm |
re: #282 haakondahl
Exactly. So this hardly serves as proof that he is not TP-dependent.
I wasn't looking for any. The TOTUS is not significant, as far as I'm concerned.
| 336 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:47pm |
re: #301 Occasional Reader
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
Yes--socialists do not believe that the way to make a money program go is by hooking a money engine up to it. They have rather a more religious than scientific belief about all of this, wherein money is simply created by government.
| 337 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:49pm |
re: #293 Sharmuta
I never heard of a 4 year wait. Most of the time is about 6 months. If they can't deny immediate coverage for pre-existing conditions, then how do you stop people from waiting until sick to buy insurance and dropping it after they don't need it anymore. So you make it mandatory and then you are faced with the problem of how do you enforce it.
| 338 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:54pm |
re: #318 Coracle
Profits at the cost of care? Insurance companies do have a fine line to walk. Is there nothing wrong with reminding - and making - them take that balance seriously?
See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.
| 339 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:27pm |
David Axelrod, the President's Chicago man, is on with Bill O'Reilly on Fox News Cable.
| 340 |
Athos Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:28pm |
| 341 |
SummerSong Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:30pm |
re: #293 Sharmuta
If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.
Cause we don't have any silver bullets!
/
| 342 |
captdiggs Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:34pm |
re: #334 DrNaughty
What we will see is a 2 or 3 day bounce of support with a MASSIVE leftist push for this plan.
By this time next week I suspect we an put a fork in it.
I don't see the far left getting too excited about this.
| 343 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:39pm |
re: #321 Silvergirl
You're just from that big fat Party of No.
/
JCM IS A SCREAMING REPUBLICAN WITH NO IDEAS!
| 345 |
arethusa Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:41pm |
re: #301 Occasional Reader
I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.
And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.
| 346 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:56pm |
Really, he kept talking about his plan;great speech but I'd like to read the plan.
| 347 |
TMF Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:01pm |
"Deficit neutral"? Is he for real? Three letters: CBO
"YOu get to keep your insurance" Really? IF a public option is established my employer is going to continue to pay a portion of my premiums? Really?
GOt any more bridges you want to sell me?
| 348 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:02pm |
re: #270 The Curmudgeon
Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?
Yeah, actually. I changed from "can't be done" to "could be worked".
| 349 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:02pm |
re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?
What was that about cutting wasteful spending?
What was that about tort reform?
Gee, I guess you missed the part about everyone having to purchase comprehensive insurance that provided free checkups and mammograms at no additional cost. That is not choice. That is not what I want.
Obama sticks to the employer responsibility bullshit, one of the major problems we have today. Employers get a break for paying the majority of their employees insurance. Obama wants to make it mandatory. People ought to purchase their own insurance and get the tax breaks. No medical expenses should ever be taxed but Obama didn't address that either.
And what about tort reform? Did you not notice that Obama cleverly steered away from actual tort reform? Instead he went after doctors for practicing defensive medicine and medical malpractice insurance. The lawyers got a free ride.
| 350 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:03pm |
re: #307 LudwigVanQuixote
You can't have it both ways.
He has proposed emergency measures soonest - like McCain's idea for those with pre-existing conditions, and a panel of actual health experts to do it right. I am all for the idea of having non-partisan experts (who actually know what they are talking abu0t) do the thinking on this. Call that elitist.
LVQ - the four year timing means this will be effective after the next election. That timing is not accidental.
| 352 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:16pm |
re: #338 Occasional Reader
See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.
Capitalista!
| 353 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:20pm |
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
| 355 |
baier Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:26pm |
Not bad, needs a great deal of work though. I don't believe for a minute that only 5% of the nation will be on GovCare. It would be higher...much higher.
| 356 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:27pm |
re: #332 FrogMarch
In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?
Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.
From the Labor Day speech:
“I continue to believe that a public option within the basket of insurance choices would help improve quality and bring down costs.”
| 357 |
The Curmudgeon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:27pm |
re: #331 Thanos
The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.
That's far too rational. We're talking about Congress.
| 358 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:30pm |
re: #145 Killgore Trout
He's already been Wiki'd on this:
Obama's healthcare speech to Congress
During a September 9th 2009 speech to Congress by President Obama, Wilson created controvery by calling out "You lie!" as Obama said there was no coverage for illegal immigrants in his healthcare plan. However, section 246 of the bill HR3200 is entitled "No Federal Payment for Undocumented Aliens" and states that no funds will be spent to cover illegal immigrants.
I know that'll make the Vdare people happy.
| 359 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:30pm |
re: #335 SanFranciscoZionist
I wasn't looking for any. The TOTUS is not significant, as far as I'm concerned.
Argh! You don't even know what you're responding to. Chase the refs if you like.
| 360 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:33pm |
re: #340 Athos
Is that the meme this week? Last week Cheney was the spawn of Satan. I need to get an updated playbook.
Satan gets around. I mean... he's Satan, ferpetesake, of course he does.
| 362 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:39pm |
Obama gave pretty short shrift to liability reform. Not good.
| 364 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:49pm |
re: #328 HoosierHoops
After the Talking heads..I still have mixed reviews about the effectness..Like Rove said he was good in the beginning and good at the end...
I still feel the seniors will drive this debate...In 48 hours we will see what happens..
Yes, a compromise bill is being worked on this week, you heard some of the idea's tonight, I expect we'll see details next week.
| 365 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:07pm |
re: #344 JohnH
Medical savings accts and catastrophic coverage.
* * * *
Dems want to discontinue Health Savings Accounts with High Deductible insurance.
Can't have something that reduces costs!
| 367 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:10pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.
Much much better.
| 368 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:15pm |
re: #341 SummerSong
Cause we don't have any silver bullets!
/
Hell, Hoss. We kin fix that! Got us a Suds & Duds right down the road!
| 369 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:16pm |
Yojimbo, here I come.
Good night, all.
| 370 |
Bubbaman Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:20pm |
re: #254 bushleague
Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.
You make a very compelling point and in fact most health care facilities operate on razor thin margins that would be unsustainable in the business world. Most companies shoot for margins in the neighborhood in the teens while most health care companies are doing well if they are in the black by a percent or two.
| 371 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:27pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Yeah. Aren't insurance companies great? I just laugh when people "suck up" about insurance companies.
| 372 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:30pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
They can be attacked. Federal Government cannnot.
| 373 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:38pm |
re: #366 buzzsawmonkey
I still remain astounded at how many of the people who objected to the possibility that the government might look at their library records are willing to give the government their medical records, tied up with Christmas ribbon.
Consider the source
| 374 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:45pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
I think that the companies that provide pretty much everything that keep me fed, clothed, sheltered, and comfortable, are for-profit enterprises.
| 375 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:49pm |
re: #239 Racer X
The spittle was flying all over the place. "Parasites"; "Fat Cats"; "Profits".
Sheesh.
I honestly liked the speech. I'm leaning towards giving Obama a chance at this one.
One big question:
WHAT HAPPENS IF IT FAILS TO LOWER COSTS, AND ACTUALLY RAISES HEALTH CARE COSTS FOR EVERYONE? WHAT IF OUR TAXES GET RAISED EVEN HIGHER TO PAY FOR THIS?
What do we do then? Can we go back to private? Or will it be way too late to go back?
Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?
| 376 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:52pm |
re: #367 JohnH
Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.
Much much better.
And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.
| 377 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:01pm |
re: #339 alegrias
David Axelrod, the President's Chicago man, is on with Bill O'Reilly on Fox News Cable.
Talking about "death panels".
/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?
| 378 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:03pm |
re: #338 Occasional Reader
See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.
Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".
| 379 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:08pm |
re: #258 Coracle
You don't think a Democrat opening the door isn't a good enough start? He has to walk through it without any plan? Nice.
No it is not.
Exempting the lawyers while scolding doctors for practicing defensive medicine is bullshit.
| 380 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:11pm |
| 381 |
captdiggs Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:11pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Which is why I wonder about sky high premiums to cover the new mandates for the insurance companies.
| 382 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:12pm |
re: #376 Charles
And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.
It's really popular these days.
| 383 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:30pm |
Those with sensitive eyes - turn away now.
ALL POLITICIANS LIE!
They lied about Social Security. They said we would all pay in to a separate fund and the money would be there when we got old. THEY LIED! They moved the revenue from Social Security into the general fund and then they promptly spent the money.
I do not trust any politician!
Period.
| 384 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:32pm |
re: #337 Chekote
I never heard of a 4 year wait. Most of the time is about 6 months. If they can't deny immediate coverage for pre-existing conditions, then how do you stop people from waiting until sick to buy insurance and dropping it after they don't need it anymore. So you make it mandatory and then you are faced with the problem of how do you enforce it.
Many employers who offer insurance to employees have no PEC clause if the new employee takes the insurance within a period of time after employment, 30 days or so.
I'm not sure how often a PEC actually applies to anyone - I know it applied to my husband when I added him to my insurance because I added him late (not within 30 days of our marriage).
| 385 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:34pm |
re: #345 arethusa
And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.
Oh, I loved that line. Yeah, those pesky "profit" thingies. Always getting in the way!
| 386 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:36pm |
re: #332 FrogMarch
In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?
Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.
I must be hearing things then. I'm sure he mentioned it in the short time I had to listen...shortly before he enlightened us with the fact that Republicans don't want to do anything to fix anything...EVER, and that not a single one had offered any input.
I think some of you who seem to think this was some kind of amazing bi-partisan heartfelt speech must have zoned out for about the 5 or so minutes that I listened.
| 387 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:36pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
That's where the reform needs to be made ... hiking insurance rates on customers and then the ceo's and top executives all get millions in bonuses soon after is despicable - no doubt about it
| 388 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:41pm |
re: #376 Charles
And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.
It's as valid as your point.
| 389 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:47pm |
| 390 |
ASU86PE Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:50pm |
re: #314 wee fury
Or was it "HIGHER"?
"FIRE"?
"TIRE"?
"MIRE"?
"SPIRE"?
"PYRE"?
Or something like that
AND who says it was a Republican? Proof?
| 391 |
researchok Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:51pm |
Even assuming there will be no 'public option', the government insurance oversight bureaucracy will be enormous.
So much for government saving us money.
The CBO numbers were good enough to criticize George Bush when it came to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but when the numbers don't work for Obama, the CBO gets kicked to the curb.
Lastly, Obama is talking pie in the sky. There is no bill as of yet- not from the House and not from the Senate.
| 392 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:51pm |
re: #367 JohnH
Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.
Much much better.
just wait until the government has to bail out the insurance companies because they were so poorly ran heavily regulated.
| 393 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:55pm |
re: #188 FrogMarch
It wasn't horrible. Stunning- he removed any hint of saying the words "public option".
He's a good speaker, he moved to the middle with a wink to the left.
I doubt he really understands what choice and competition and free markets are.I personally do not truth him or the progressives who want to make this about taxing one sector to pay for another. But clearly the American people do not want his original version of government run health care - and he caves somewhat.
He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.
| 394 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:02pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
* * * *
Insurance companies need MORE competition, not monopolies like they have now, state by state.
You're right, they'd make less profit and they'd work harder to woo customers IF they didn't have captive customers and rigged markets in their favor.
Make the insurance companies compete truly.
| 395 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:02pm |
re: #356 jaunte
From the Labor Day speech:
“I continue to believe that a public option within the basket of insurance choices would help improve quality and bring down costs.”
He talked about the public option at length. Not a deal breaker, but he still likes it.
| 396 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:26pm |
One thing I noticed - he's talking about an exchange, but there's not a single mention of coops. How's that going to work?
| 397 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:35pm |
re: #380 haakondahl
YOU SAID DEATH PANEL, FASCIST!
My code was broken too!
Hangs head in shame.
*signs up for public option as penance*
| 398 |
TMF Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:45pm |
I like how Ogoofy is now calling for eliminating tax exemptions for employers who insure their workers.
I recall a guy named COUGH MCCAIN calling for that during the campaign and being excoriated for it in ad after ad after ad "hes going to tax your health care! waaawaaa!!"
No shame. Zero.
| 399 |
yesandno Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:47pm |
re: #331 Thanos
Not really. I still think it's a pile of small problems that add up to a big mess. The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.
And that should be true of every darn bill before Congress...they should be specific and not throwing in a bunch of other stuff under the same heading to sneak things through
| 400 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:51pm |
re: #394 alegrias
* * * *
Insurance companies need MORE competition, not monopolies like they have now, state by state.You're right, they'd make less profit and they'd work harder to woo customers IF they didn't have captive customers and rigged markets in their favor.
Make the insurance companies compete truly.
It worked for auto insurance...
| 401 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:53pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Doesn't the government do the same thing at the VA?
| 402 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:55pm |
Am I suppose to imagine my problems with health care a just imagine O will fix them. Where's his plan?
| 403 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:02pm |
Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."
Bullshit!
| 404 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:05pm |
re: #378 Coracle
Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".
Exactly. The insurance company makes more by providing less.
This is an inescapable part of the equation.
| 405 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:06pm |
re: #394 alegrias
You got it. They way you stop it is by increasing competition.
| 406 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:13pm |
re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote
He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.
I wouldn't say "clearly." He described it several different ways from what I recall.
| 407 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:14pm |
re: #371 Gus 802
Yeah. Aren't insurance companies great? I just laugh when people "suck up" about insurance companies.
Huh?
Nobody is saying insurance companies are great, or sucking up to them.
| 408 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:15pm |
re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote
He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.
...he was clearly grasping at straws after a horrible August...
| 410 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:17pm |
re: #377 Killian Bundy
Talking about "death panels".
/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?
It's the gift that keeps on giving.
| 411 |
right_wing2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:29pm |
re: #318 Coracle
[Link: www.economistblog.com...]
According to this, insurance company profit margins are under 4%. Is that excessive?
| 412 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:30pm |
re: #395 avanti
I can believe the bring down costs part, in part.
Not so sure about the quality improvement.
| 413 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:31pm |
re: #366 buzzsawmonkey
Do you object to Medicare, Medicaid or VA benefits?
| 414 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:32pm |
re: #379 Wendya
No it is not.
Exempting the lawyers while scolding doctors for practicing defensive medicine is bullshit.
Except he didn't.
| 415 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:38pm |
I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.
| 417 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:03pm |
I liked how Obama started the show with a big self-congratulatory pat on the back for saving the economy with the stimulus.
I doubt the folks who are out of work were feeling it.
Then of course, he said something like 'the republicans only want to force everyone out in the cold when it comes to health care.'
He finally made a poke under the free market tent when he agreed that we need more competition. But I still doubt that he doesn't mean "by way of the government solution/option"
If the government would stay out of the restriction game, we would have more insurance companies NOW from which to choose -- and across state lines.
HR3200 must be scraped in order to fulfill his utopian dreams.
| 418 |
media_man Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:04pm |
Not sure if this is a good speech or just a spectacularly dishonest one. It really helps to have a one party media not questioning any of your statements, even flagrantly mendacious ones like his plan will reduce costs. His own CBO (with a Dem appointed Director) say just the opposite.
What will his plan do to private investment in healthcare innovation? Will anyone invest in pharmaceutical R&D with these Socialists demanding free drugs for everybody at cost? How will hospitals remain in business if the private insurance they depend on to stay afloat is destroyed?
I'm all for Universal Access to healthcare, I just don't think the Dems care about what's good in the current system (access, quality, innnovation) and just want what's good for the Democratic party (massive public constituency for "free" healthcare, however crappy) and huge public sector labor unions of healthcare workers, providing the worst care imaginable.
| 419 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:06pm |
re: #386 theuglydougling
I must be hearing things then. I'm sure he mentioned it in the short time I had to listen...shortly before he enlightened us with the fact that Republicans don't want to do anything to fix anything...EVER, and that not a single one had offered any input.
I think some of you who seem to think this was some kind of amazing bi-partisan heartfelt speech must have zoned out for about the 5 or so minutes that I listened.
I think you should have listened to the whole speech.
| 420 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:09pm |
re: #398 TMF
I like how Ogoofy is now calling for eliminating tax exemptions for employers who insure their workers.
I recall a guy named COUGH MCCAIN calling for that during the campaign and being excoriated for it in ad after ad after ad "hes going to tax your health care! waaawaaa!!"
No shame. Zero.
I don't like Obama very much, but I really wish you would just use his name or "the President", rather than "ogoofy". Please.
| 421 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:13pm |
re: #407 Occasional Reader
Huh?
Nobody is saying insurance companies are great, or sucking up to them.
I was speaking generally. There are several opinions here no?
| 422 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:14pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.
Move to Canada so you can live your dream
| 423 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:20pm |
re: #409 buzzsawmonkey
I'm not worried. Not at all.
The President said he would not sign any bill which added even a penny to the deficit. I heard him, and I believe him.
We can all go home now.
...oh...I didn't hear that...I'm in!
| 424 |
Dar ul Harbarian Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:25pm |
Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.
| 425 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:29pm |
re: #383 Racer X
I do not trust any politician!Period.
Then who do you try to elect to office? Beauticians?
| 426 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:30pm |
re: #409 buzzsawmonkey
I'm not worried. Not at all.
The President said he would not sign any bill which added even a penny to the deficit. I heard him, and I believe him.
We can all go home now.
I need a partner to help finance this great bridge I heard about...
| 427 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:34pm |
re: #377 Killian Bundy
Talking about "death panels".
/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?
Well payback is a bitch. It's what you get for lying.
| 428 |
badtemper Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:34pm |
re: #403 NJDhockeyfan
Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."
Bullshit!
Yeah, I heard that laughed out loud. He thinks the AMA is the entire medical community.
| 429 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:37pm |
re: #378 Coracle
Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".
“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”
-A. Smith
| 430 |
OtisMyMan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:47pm |
re: #383 Racer X
And please let's not forget that after Rowe Vs Wade abortions will only be performed in the first trimester of pregnancy.
| 431 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:49pm |
re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly. The insurance company makes more by providing less.
This is an inescapable part of the equation.
But I thought a lot of Obama's speech was premised on cutting costs. Which is what insurance companies do already. So if you don't like what insurance companies do, I guarantee you won't like what the govt does.
| 432 |
SummerSong Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:56pm |
'Tax payers will not be subsidizing the public option"
Did I dream that sentence?
| 433 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:57pm |
re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote
Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?
Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.
But that would be a good idea in your world huh?
| 434 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:02pm |
re: #396 Thanos
One thing I noticed - he's talking about an exchange, but there's not a single mention of coops. How's that going to work?
No, he mentioned coops.
| 435 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:05pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Well, just wait until the problem is unassailable government bureaucracy. Then we'll be well and truly fucked.
If you think that a profit motive is a disincentive to doing good business, just wait until you experience the power of NOTHING, which is what will be more important than your health, and which is what you will get.
We are not comparing the current system to perfection. We are comparing the current system to a nightmare of dingy hallways and threadbare gowns. This is the way every single government program winds up.
| 436 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:13pm |
re: #366 buzzsawmonkey
I still remain astounded at how many of the people who objected to the possibility that the government might look at their library records are willing to give the government their medical records, tied up with Christmas ribbon.
* * * *
Wait 'til the government knows your urology, gynecology and psychiatry record! Feel the federal love from Big Brother.
| 437 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:22pm |
re: #410 avanti
Anyone sitting in front of one of those panels will have his own opinion.
| 439 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:39pm |
re: #388 JohnH
It's as valid as your point.
You're an ass who tried to put words in my mouth. That's my point.
| 440 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:43pm |
Notice Obama stated clearly that it should cost only $900 billion. Less than the Iraq war! So - basically Obama is still on HR3200.
| 441 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:45pm |
So, to summarize, what I think I've read so far:
Where's the Beef?
| 442 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:52pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
As a licensed agent for 20 years and a former exec with a group of insurance cos. I can personally confirm that much to to my displeasure.
| 443 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:01pm |
re: #433 Racer X
Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.
But that would be a good idea in your world huh?
I would go with private over public if I had the means.
I would go with public if I was poor.
| 444 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:02pm |
re: #422 DrNaughty
Move to Canada so you can live your dream
I'll stay here. thanks. Why don't you go to Somalia or some other country without healthcare so you can live your dream?
| 445 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:03pm |
re: #374 Occasional Reader
I think that the companies that provide pretty much everything that keep me fed, clothed, sheltered, and comfortable, are for-profit enterprises.
True. But there is a problem in corporate America where desire for short-term profits over-ride common sense and humanity. Where oil companies won't update and modernize their facilities for the sake of making a profit for those divisions at the risk of an environmental incident. Or where insurers refuse coverage --knowing that coverage exists--in order to keep from paying more than the reserves had been set for. The potential for greater screw-ups with a government run program is great--hence I do not like it. But, I would like to see uniform rules and application of same in the private sector.
| 446 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:05pm |
re: #439 Charles
You're an ass who tried to put words in my mouth. That's my point.
I did not put words in your mouth. I responded to your point. That's all.
| 448 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:13pm |
Hmm, can't get through to my congressmans website, anybody else notice that?
| 449 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:16pm |
re: #410 avanti
It's the gift that keeps on giving.
/yeah, keep beating a weeks old dead issue and then accuse Republicans of using scare tactics, beauty, eh?
| 450 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:19pm |
re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist
Why? Do the BS and the strawmen and the demagoguery magically disappear when hearing the entire thing?
| 451 |
ASU86PE Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:21pm |
re: #353 Charles
AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.
| 452 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:29pm |
re: #436 alegrias
* * * *
Wait 'til the government knows your urology, gynecology and psychiatry record! Feel the federal love from Big Brother.
Wait till they know your tax bill!
The real power will be in office workers' gossip about earnings.
| 453 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:34pm |
re: #412 jaunte
I can believe the bring down costs part, in part.
Not so sure about the quality improvement.
I like the 4 year trigger/co-op idea that was worked out with some GOP moderates.
| 454 |
Digital Display Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:38pm |
re: #364 avanti
Yes, a compromise bill is being worked on this week, you heard some of the idea's tonight, I expect we'll see details next week.
Chief..I just started to read enough of 3 wood's post to begin to understand the financial markets...It's been a long summer..And now I'm going to have to learn the In's and outs of Health care..It's mind numbing..I have said this is a tactical mistake..This was a 2010 issue with a recovered economy and a breathe of relief...It would have been a piece of cake...Having lost tactical advantage it is now a strategic game to win in their current position..Just like a chess game..From where you are..How do you win?
| 455 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:38pm |
re: #431 JohnH
But I thought a lot of Obama's speech was premised on cutting costs. Which is what insurance companies do already. So if you don't like what insurance companies do, I guarantee you won't like what the govt does.
Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.
Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.
| 456 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:43pm |
re: #288 Ojoe
Brooks followed him, breaking the cane over Sumner’s head and continuing to strike him with pieces of the cane. The entire attack probably lasted for a full minute, and left Sumner dazed and bleeding. Carried into a Capitol anteroom, Sumner was attended by a doctor, who administered stitches to close wounds on his head.
Brooks was soon arrested on a charge of assault, and was quickly released on bail.
Link
After which, Brooks' constituents sent him many more canes.
| 457 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:45pm |
re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote
Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?
Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.
| 458 |
The Curmudgeon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:46pm |
I'd like one of those death panel jobs. How would it work? Thumb up, thumb down? I could do that.
| 459 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:58pm |
re: #424 Dar ul Harbarian
Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.
Please don't mention the demotion of Pluto. It was a bad day for me.
/
| 460 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:02pm |
re: #432 SummerSong
'Tax payers will not be subsidizing the public option"
Did I dream that sentence?
I believe I heard that.
| 461 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:02pm |
re: #451 ASU86PE
AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.
Hey, I brew my own, but don't drive after partaking.
| 462 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:04pm |
re: #451 ASU86PE
AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.
I fail to see how your analogy fits.
| 463 |
right_wing2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:08pm |
re: #358 Gus 802
Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?
| 465 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:16pm |
re: #433 Racer X
Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.
But that would be a good idea in your world huh?
There are plenty of non-profit health insurance companies already.
| 466 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:21pm |
re: #441 ggt
So, to summarize, what I think I've read so far:
Where's the Beef?
Just more cheerleading...only in prime time.
| 467 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:24pm |
re: #428 badtemper
Yeah, I heard that laughed out loud. He thinks the AMA is the entire medical community.
My wife is a nurse and I have close friend who is a doctor. Neither one knows a doctor who supports ObamaCare.
| 468 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:30pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
I agree with your comment Charles, but I'm also not stupid enough to think the government can do it better. Medicare and Social Security.
| 469 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:31pm |
re: #425 Coracle
Then who do you try to elect to office? Beauticians?
Heh.
I vote for the politician I think will lie the least.
| 470 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:33pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
As someone who watched her mother die in a state hospital in Europe, let me tell you. Be careful what you wish for. The point is that no one is denied care in this country. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. And I am sick and tired of this fallacious no insurance = no treatment. You want to see no treatment? Move to Europe. My cat got better care here in the US than my mother in Italy.
| 471 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:34pm |
re: #437 Kilroy
Anyone sitting in front of one of those panels will have his own opinion.
You missing the sarc tag, there never were any death panels.
| 472 |
arethusa Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:39pm |
Uh, Obama is giving another statement on health care reform tomorrow morning?
Was tonight not enough? It was pretty clear what he wanted to do.
| 473 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:39pm |
re: #463 right_wing2
Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?
Not any now, just show up at the ER
| 474 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:43pm |
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
| 475 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:49pm |
re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote
Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.
Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.
Yet this is what the UK Government Healthcare is doing every day
| 476 |
BothAndWorld Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:50pm |
Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?
I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?
| 477 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:03pm |
re: #433 Racer X
Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.
But that would be a good idea in your world huh?
And yet UPS and FED EX do fine. I am saying that giving people who have nothing will save more lives than pricing them out of having anything.
The costs that I am measuring are in lives, not as much as dollars.
Call me a religious nut.
| 478 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:07pm |
re: #411 right_wing2
[Link: www.economistblog.com...]
According to this, insurance company profit margins are under 4%. Is that excessive?
I'm not an economist. I know people who have no insurance because they can't afford it. I know others who have been dropped at exactly the moment they needed the coverage they had. If that's the price of a 4% margin for companies that are supposed to care for people as part of their business plan, then yes, It's excessive.
| 479 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:13pm |
re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote
He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.
* * * *
By "independent panels" of UNELECTED czars, silly.
| 480 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:23pm |
re: #447 buzzsawmonkey
What has that to do with anything?
At the thought that government functionaries might possibly seek to examine their library records, nearly half the country went batshit bonkers. That is the same near-half of the country that is most gung-ho to hand over their much-more-private medical records to the government.
Explain how this makes any sense at all.
You seem to be afraid that if there's a public option, the government will do something with your medical records. If you take currently advantage of Medicare, Medicaid or VA benefits, they already have your medical benefits so why should it be a concern?
| 481 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:23pm |
re: #340 Athos
Is that the meme this week? Last week Cheney was the spawn of Satan. I need to get an updated playbook.
That is so "last administration"! You should log on to latestspawn.com to keep up on the very latest spawns of Satan. You could also text "spawn666" to 666-6666 for the very latest spawn updates.
Satan is a prolific fellow and you never know who will be his next spawn - MAYBE EVEN YOU!
| 482 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:28pm |
re: #457 haakondahl
Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.
Precisely.
When the government loses money - the government hits us up for more via taxation and fees. No competition involved.
| 483 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:35pm |
re: #476 BothAndWorld
Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?
I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?
Bush demonization is essential in the obamaworld.
| 485 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:41pm |
re: #386 theuglydougling
Now, I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business. They provide a legitimate service, and employ a lot of our friends and neighbors. I just want to hold them accountable. The insurance reforms that I’ve already mentioned would do just that. But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange.
| 486 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:42pm |
Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.
| 487 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:44pm |
re: #427 LudwigVanQuixote
Well payback is a bitch. It's what you get for lying.
/exactly, what goes around comes around, wait for it
| 488 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:45pm |
re: #463 right_wing2
Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?
Have you called or written your congressman to consider that as an amendment? As far as I know there is provision that it should not cover illegal aliens.
Talk to your congressman.
| 489 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:46pm |
re: #457 haakondahl
Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.
He was talking about an index of companies competing across America for everyone. That is called opening the market.
| 490 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:47pm |
re: #476 BothAndWorld
Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?
I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?
Sadly- many on the right now seem to think Afghanistan isn't worth fighting for.
| 491 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:54pm |
re: #458 The Curmudgeon
I'd like one of those death panel jobs. How would it work? Thumb up, thumb down? I could do that.
If you can hind your own Easter eggs like me, that's one strike. /
| 492 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:59pm |
Hubby thinks Skeletor might have gained some weight? Less stress, not working with Pretty Boy anymore?
| 493 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:01pm |
Shouldn't this have morphed into a gun thread by now?
/
| 494 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:17pm |
re: #467 NJDhockeyfan
My wife is a nurse and I have close friend who is a doctor. Neither one knows a doctor who supports ObamaCare.
The doctors who have weighed in with me are all unsure. Most common phrase: "Its complicated".
| 495 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:22pm |
re: #450 theuglydougling
Why? Do the BS and the strawmen and the demagoguery magically disappear when hearing the entire thing?
Scratch that suggestion. I'm sure you'd only hear what you intended to hear no matter how much of it you listened to.
| 496 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:25pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
lmao
| 497 |
Dar ul Harbarian Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:32pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
At least we aren't arguing about Pluto.
| 498 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:36pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
Uh, made a popular blog perhaps ?
| 499 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:44pm |
re: #443 Sharmuta
I would go with private over public if I had the means.
I would go with public if I was poor.
Bingo!
You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.
| 500 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:53pm |
re: #451 ASU86PE
AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.
WTF? They promote drunk driving? Where?
| 502 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:03pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
Naw...it's a nest of excited lizards!
| 503 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:09pm |
re: #494 experiencedtraveller
The doctors who have weighed in with me are all unsure. Most common phrase: "Its complicated".
Will obamacare mean that doctors won't have to carry liability insurance ?
| 504 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:14pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
You want we should go away?
| 505 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:14pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
You knave!/
Montressor Masonry, Inc.--Quality is Not the Only Thing That Goes Into Our Work!
| 506 |
researchok Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:15pm |
Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?
| 507 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:17pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
Don't blame me, I called for a gun thread.
| 508 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:28pm |
re: #376 Charles
And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.
Charles, you did not say that, but it hardly constitutes putting words in your mouth to voice the other, unspoken view of the same process.
From your post, it sounds like you are pitting the current system against some rose-colored vision of ObamaCare. If I thought it would work they way the President thinks it will work, then maybe I would support it. What JohnH did was point out the alternative view, that pits the current system against a less credulous interpretation of the President's plan. None of that puts words in your mouth. They're his words. From his mouth. He just disagrees.
| 509 |
Bubbaman Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:35pm |
re: #422 DrNaughty
Move to Canada so you can live your dream
Look, there are some very interesting facets about the Canadian medical system that people don't know about and the media has conveniently ignored. No, I'm not talking about wait times, rationing, treatment limitations, etc.
Did any of you know that dental care is a free market, cash enterprise in Canada? That's right, the cradle to grave socialist system doesn't provide FREE dental care. Canadian dentists are very happy, busy, and well paid.
Moreover, there is a burgeoning movement to establish "pay for care" health systems in Canada.
I spoke with a Dentist friend of mine from Toronto the other day and he is absolutely mortified that we would consider emulating the Canadian health system.
| 510 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:45pm |
re: #353 Charles
It's a legit problem, but I'll take my chances with insurance companies in the private sector each and every time dealing with insurance issues and my various physicians over some government healthcare fiasco. Every time.
I just switched plans after spending two hours online with a local broker and went over (no kidding) over 100 different plans, both group and individual. I was shocked at how many plans are out there. In fact, it took me two weeks to decide there were so many.
| 511 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:47pm |
| 512 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:54pm |
re: #459 ggt
Please don't mention the demotion of Pluto. It was a bad day for me.
/
There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
| 514 |
badtemper Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:05pm |
re: #498 avanti
Uh, made a popular blog perhaps ?
Enjoy it until an Obama Czar regulates it. (Truther!)
| 515 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:12pm |
re: #506 researchok
Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?
Because they are the ruling elite...
We are the workers and should be grateful what they can provide to us to make our miserable lives better...
| 516 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:18pm |
re: #403 NJDhockeyfan
Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."
Bullshit!
* * * *
SOME might.
But you're right! Yesterday several doctors in white robes lobbied Congress against this plan.
| 518 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:34pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
Well done. This is when we are really working.
| 520 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:39pm |
re: #499 Racer X
Bingo!
You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.
so...if Obama get's his way...I get the shitty public option even if I can afford the private...
| 521 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:41pm |
re: #499 Racer X
Bingo!
You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.
I want nancy pelosi's plan.
| 522 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:42pm |
It's a presidential address speaking at a joint session. The final decision will lie with the House and the Senate. In the end it will either be signed by the president or vetoed.
| 524 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:46pm |
re: #471 avanti
You missing the sarc tag, there never were any death panels.
/someone should tell Obama and Axelrod
| 525 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:51pm |
re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote
And the Veterans Administration, a fully funded government operation doesn't cut corners, and didn't shortchange services to veterans? It still doesn't provide the kind of coverage members of the armed forces deserve.
Then, there's the Indian Health Service, which is as screwed up a system as one can possibly imagine. Those are two systems operated top to bottom by the US government. Fix those first - make them run efficiently and control costs.
If you can't succeed there, there's absolutely no way you're going to succeed with the rest of the health care delivery system, where hundreds of millions already have health insurance.
The issue isn't one of access to health care, but cost - and Obama isn't going to cut costs with his proposals...
| 526 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:53pm |
re: #470 Chekote
As someone who watched her mother die in a state hospital in Europe, let me tell you. Be careful what you wish for. The point is that no one is denied care in this country. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. And I am sick and tired of this fallacious no insurance = no treatment. You want to see no treatment? Move to Europe. My cat got better care here in the US than my mother in Italy.
Yes. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. But the emergency room doesn't do preventive care, or treat chronic conditions real well, and we all pay through the nose for that little option.
| 527 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:58pm |
re: #424 Dar ul Harbarian
Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.
Show him this
| 528 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:13pm |
re: #474 Charles
Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.
What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!
or--We're Just Another Brick in the Wall...
| 529 |
Kreuzueber Halbmond Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:17pm |
Growing government is never good. It always results in higher taxes and a loss of freedom. The President just put us on the Socialism fast track. What a surprise.
| 530 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:18pm |
re: #486 jorline
Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.
I think he's more like the ShamWow guy.
"Follow me camera guy?"
| 531 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:20pm |
The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.
| 532 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:38pm |
re: #477 LudwigVanQuixote
And yet UPS and FED EX do fine. I am saying that giving people who have nothing will save more lives than pricing them out of having anything.
The costs that I am measuring are in lives, not as much as dollars.
Call me a religious nut.
I hear you, and I appreciate your compassion for those who need care. I am skeptical that this reform will not be painful for ALL Americans.
| 533 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:40pm |
| 534 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:46pm |
re: #514 badtemper
Enjoy it until an Obama Czar regulates it. (Truther!)
I'll be cool comrade, we just nationalize the blog for the One./
| 535 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:47pm |
re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar
It's called a bullshit lie.
He proposed a bunch of things that we would all agree with, but it had to be a lie...
Why is that?
| 536 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:57pm |
re: #511 calcajun
Shoot.
Okay:
If I'm told to kill myself by an Obamacare Death Panel, the ammo I will choose is: ___
Discuss.
//
| 537 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:57pm |
re: #506 researchok
Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?
Well, now that's the key to the whole thing, isn't it? If you don't trust private enterprise, then you feel you have no choice now, and only a government option will give it to you. On the other hand, if you don't trust government, then you feel you have choice now, and will lose it when government inevitably defends its ugly baby from the hazards of market forces.
| 538 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:58pm |
I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.
I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.
| 539 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:02pm |
re: #525 lawhawk
And the Veterans Administration, a fully funded government operation doesn't cut corners, and didn't shortchange services to veterans? It still doesn't provide the kind of coverage members of the armed forces deserve.
Then, there's the Indian Health Service, which is as screwed up a system as one can possibly imagine. Those are two systems operated top to bottom by the US government. Fix those first - make them run efficiently and control costs.
If you can't succeed there, there's absolutely no way you're going to succeed with the rest of the health care delivery system, where hundreds of millions already have health insurance.
The issue isn't one of access to health care, but cost - and Obama isn't going to cut costs with his proposals...
RIGHT ON!
| 540 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:09pm |
re: #531 Chekote
The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.
if you think it's expensive now...wait until it's "free"
| 541 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:12pm |
re: #430 OtisMyMan
And please let's not forget that after Rowe Vs Wade abortions will only be performed in the first trimester of pregnancy.
* * ***
Hahahahaha. That was another whopper.
| 542 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:16pm |
Excuse me while I check on some technical issues...
| 543 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:31pm |
re: #510 borgcube
It's a legit problem, but I'll take my chances with insurance companies in the private sector each and every time dealing with insurance issues and my various physicians over some government healthcare fiasco. Every time.
I just switched plans after spending two hours online with a local broker and went over (no kidding) over 100 different plans, both group and individual. I was shocked at how many plans are out there. In fact, it took me two weeks to decide there were so many.
Ding Ding!
| 544 |
huckfunn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:43pm |
re: #530 NJDhockeyfan
Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.
I think he's more like the ShamWow guy.
"Follow me camera guy?"
linguine, martini, bikini
| 545 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:43pm |
The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.
| 546 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:45pm |
| 547 |
freedomplow Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:46pm |
Its all about the teasin and not about the pleasin.
| 549 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:47pm |
| 550 |
theuglydougling Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:51pm |
re: #495 SanFranciscoZionist
So if I hear a bunch of strawmen and demagoguery, is that in no way supposed to affect my judgment of what else I hear? Is that only bad when it comes from out of power Republicans?
| 551 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:01pm |
I don't want people to die that can be saved thru medical care, or lack of war or crime or whatever. Who does? Really?
But reality is reality, this is not Heaven-- it is Earth.
It seems that people think Utopia is accessible thru government planning and anyone that stands in the way is subject to Godwin's law.
I'm utterly frustrated by this issue tonite.
I'm going to do some laundry.
check-in later.
| 552 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:04pm |
re: #525 lawhawk
Bingo. Fix what is broken, first. Then we might trust you.
| 553 |
badtemper Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:11pm |
re: #538 Coracle
I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.
I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.
Again: Judge a man by his actions. Just sayin'.
| 554 |
SummerSong Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:19pm |
re: #491 avanti
If you can hind your own Easter eggs like me, that's one strike. /
Hind, Easter eggs? OUCHIE!
| 555 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:27pm |
re: #545 Charles
The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.
It was an overdose of hopium and changium. The solution is simple.
Death panels. ///
| 556 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:29pm |
re: #545 Charles
The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.
Sounds like we need hamster death panels! That'll motivate them.
| 557 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:32pm |
| 558 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:46pm |
re: #365 alegrias
* * * *
Dems want to discontinue Health Savings Accounts with High Deductible insurance.Can't have something that reduces costs!
Under the plan Obama outlined, I would not be allowed to keep my current coverage.
Contrast this:
First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.
With this:
As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
That is a direct contradiction of the "you get to keep it!" line of bullshit he keeps peddling. Insurance companies would not legally be allowed to continue to offer high deductible polices. It would violate the 'out of pocket' and 'free preventative care' provisions. It is a lie.
| 559 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:46pm |
re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. But the emergency room doesn't do preventive care, or treat chronic conditions real well, and we all pay through the nose for that little option.
This is why annual check-ups keep costs down. Like I mentioned on the last thread with breast and colon cancer- getting these two areas checked regularly is essential. Survival rates are higher when they're caught early. Good luck getting this done in an ER.
| 561 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:10pm |
re: #557 Racer X
You've seen her plastic surgery right?
Not worried about that- I'm better looking than she is.
| 562 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:11pm |
| 564 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:14pm |
re: #532 Racer X
I hear you, and I appreciate your compassion for those who need care. I am skeptical that this reform will not be painful for ALL Americans.
Spread the wealth / Spread the pain.
| 565 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:15pm |
re: #524 Killian Bundy
/someone should tell Obama and Axelrod
Nah, they can milk it to death, it's a wonderful line.
| 566 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:23pm |
re: #465 Killgore Trout
There are plenty of non-profit health insurance companies already.
There are? Can you name any?
My understanding of all of this is
1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car;
2) if you can't afford healthcare (you're below a certain income I'm assuming), there will be a free public not-for-profit option;
3) now this is where I'm not clear. Is he saying there will be a paid-for government option, probably run by an HMO or some such, that you can take if you want, but would be cheaper than another PPO, HMO, etc. option? And if so, what would be the differences between that and a more expensive, private ins plan?
That's basically what I garnered. I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.
| 567 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:25pm |
re: #538 Coracle
I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.
I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.
Coracle - I don't support this plan, I didn't before the speech, and I don't know. That does not make me close-minded. It simply means I have come to a different conclusion than someone who does support the plan.
| 568 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:45pm |
re: #520 Charpete67
so...if Obama get's his way...I get the shitty public option even if I can afford the private...
Except that, well, that's not the goal.
| 569 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:50pm |
re: #559 Sharmuta
This is why annual check-ups keep costs down. Like I mentioned on the last thread with breast and colon cancer- getting these two areas checked regularly is essential. Survival rates are higher when they're caught early. Good luck getting this done in an ER.
Agreed. The ER is no argument for "available" healthcare
| 570 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:51pm |
| 571 |
Dar ul Harbarian Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:13pm |
| 572 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:26pm |
re: #555 lawhawk
It was an overdose of hopium and changium. The solution is simple.
Death panels. ///
If he had doubled-downed on energy -- an Apollo-like program--then more people might have gotten behind it. This should have waited until 2011.
| 573 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:27pm |
re: #560 buzzsawmonkey
Plastic? I thought it was Spackle.
Wrong. It's laminated synthetic armor. Do NOT f**k with Pelosi.
| 574 |
Code Red 21 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:34pm |
Let's see what Jack Webb has to say to BO about healthcare reform...
| 575 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:36pm |
re: #567 reine.de.tout
Coracle - I don't support this plan, I didn't before the speech, and I don't know. That does not make me close-minded. It simply means I have come to a different conclusion than someone who does support the plan.
You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.
| 576 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:37pm |
re: #568 SanFranciscoZionist
Except that, well, that's not the goal.
no sarc tag?...not the goal...but the inevitable end...I don't see how people can't see that.
| 577 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:42pm |
re: #556 haakondahl
Sounds like we need hamster death
panelsczars! That'll motivate them.
There, fixed. /
| 578 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:01pm |
re: #452 experiencedtraveller
Wait till they know your tax bill!
The real power will be in office workers' gossip about earnings.
* * * *
Remember how quickly Joe the Plumber's private records were accessed by an Ohio state government worker, all because when Obama walked onto Joe the Plumber's front lawn, Joe the Plumber asked candidate Obama a question?
Trust the state or government NEVER to access your most private medical records IN THEIR POSSESSION.
Bwahaha. Abandon all hope of privacy, ye who enter the "public/singlepayer" option
| 579 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:14pm |
re: #575 Coracle
You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.
Yep, lots of changes.
| 580 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:16pm |
Insurance companies are businesses charged with maximizing profits for their share holders. Pretty elementary. Makes them businesses, not demons I think.
The only thing that prevents you from paying $20K for you computer is competition - of the global variety. If I had a choice limited to two or three computer makers, all with the same specifications, in the place I live would I not get bent over when buying a new one?
Can someone explain the practice of limiting insurance co. participation on a State by State basis? Who is paying who in this apparent little protection racket, or is it for the good of the citizens?
| 581 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:18pm |
re: #573 Occasional Reader
Wrong. It's laminated synthetic armor. Do NOT f**k with Pelosi.
The last Cylon?
| 582 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:21pm |
Just had to kill a bunch of MySQL processes that were stacking up on the DB server for some reason.
Another issue to investigate this weekend.
| 583 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:39pm |
Private insurance companies can't run up tens of trillions in losses like the government has and will continue to.
/it won't be too long before the debt overwhelms our ability to even make the promised payments on it and, in the real world of private enterprise, that's called default
| 584 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:39pm |
re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist
Here in Dallas at Parkland Hospital they treat you when you show up. That's what the illegals do for every little thing. There are also lots of clinics that provide free care. A friend of mine's father was visiting from Bulgaria, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. They went to Parkland. Took care of his treatment including providing a Bulgarian interpreter. And still comes to the US for follow up visits. People get care. It is the cost that is the problem.
| 585 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:48pm |
re: #528 calcajun
or--We're Just Another Brick in the Wall...
Great! Here's a video that fits this thread.
Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother, do you think they'll like this song?
Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Mother, should I build the wall?
Mother, should I run for President?
Mother, should I trust the government?
Mother, will they put me in the firing line?
Is it just a waste of time?Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing
Momma's will keep Baby cozy and warm
Oooo Babe
Oooo Babe
Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build the wallMother, do you think she's good enough
For me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous
To me?
Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
Mother, will she break my heart?Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
Momma's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you
Momma won't let anyone dirty get through
Momma's gonna wait up until you get in
Momma will always find out where you've been
Momma's gonna keep Baby healthy and clean
Oooo Babe
Oooo Babe
Ooo Babe, you'll always be Baby to meMother, did it need to be so high?
| 586 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:50pm |
re: #558 Wendya
Under the plan Obama outlined, I would not be allowed to keep my current coverage.
Contrast this:
First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.
With this:
As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]That is a direct contradiction of the "you get to keep it!" line of bullshit he keeps peddling. Insurance companies would not legally be allowed to continue to offer high deductible polices. It would violate the 'out of pocket' and 'free preventative care' provisions. It is a lie.
Exactly. The reason that Hugh Hewitt has been banging on about how this is, in fact a lie, is because Hugh Hewitt knows how to read, knows how to listen, knows how the government works, and knows how markets work.
The "Ugly Baby" process is my own invention, I am happy to say :-)
But you are exactly right. Even if the President truly believes that "you can keep your doctor and or your plan if you like", it just will not be possible if the President's plan goes forward.
| 587 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:15pm |
re: #566 marjoriemoon
There are? Can you name any?
My understanding of all of this is
1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car;
2) if you can't afford healthcare (you're below a certain income I'm assuming), there will be a free public not-for-profit option;
3) now this is where I'm not clear. Is he saying there will be a paid-for government option, probably run by an HMO or some such, that you can take if you want, but would be cheaper than another PPO, HMO, etc. option? And if so, what would be the differences between that and a more expensive, private ins plan?
That's basically what I garnered. I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.
My insurance plan is not-for-profit, because I have my health insurance through my former employer, and they are self-insured for employee health insurance.
And those mammographies and colonoscopies aren't "free" - somebody paid for the equipment and the technicians and the doctors and the time and the facilities.
| 588 |
Izzyboy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:21pm |
re: #583 Killian Bundy
Private insurance companies can't run up tens of trillions in losses like the government has and will continue to.
/it won't be too long before the debt overwhelms our ability to even make the promised payments on it and, in the real world of private enterprise, that's called default
Then we'll just bail ourselves out!
/
| 589 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:32pm |
re: #345 arethusa
And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.
Here's the actual quote:
But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers.
This is what happens when you elect someone who is economically illiterate.
| 590 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:34pm |
I'm having a hard time deciding between which washer and dryer I should buy next...perhaps the government can help me out and eliminate some of the competition.
| 591 |
Truck Monkey Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:37pm |
re: #531 Chekote
The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.
Oh PUHLEASE! It's as easy as this really.
Phase one - Collect Underpants
Phase two -
Phase Three - Realize Savings from fraud!
I does not get any easier than this!
//
| 592 |
Bubbaman Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:43pm |
Gotta run - after another 14.5 hour work day, I actually have to spend some time at home. Good night and don't get sick.
| 593 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:44pm |
re: #566 marjoriemoon
I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.
marjorie, nothing is free.
| 594 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:55pm |
re: #581 jcm
The last Cylon?
Oh, hell, we're ALL Cylons.
/don't get me started... grumble grumble... stupid declining story arc...
| 595 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:01pm |
re: #519 buzzsawmonkey
I have expressed nothing like what you are saying in the post you referenced. I was talking about the utter disconnect of people manifestly not trusting the government to know what books they took out of the library, yet being perfectly willing to trust that same government with the most intimate details of their physical condition.
Again: does that make sense to you?
Take a breathe, Buzz. I wasn't attacking you. I was just asking a question. Anybody who would be concerned with the gov having access to their medical records must simply not realize that they already do. I was asking if you thought so as well, is all.
| 596 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:14pm |
re: #575 Coracle
You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.
Yes, I saw a few differences.
I still do not support this plan.
I'm not close-minded.
I just have come to a different conclusion about the plan than someone who does support it.
| 597 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:15pm |
re: #571 Dar ul Harbarian
Thanks!
You are most welcome, covers the whole deal in HD with lots of other interesting facts.
| 598 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:22pm |
re: #590 jorline
I'm having a hard time deciding between which washer and dryer I should buy next...perhaps the government can help me out and eliminate some of the competition.
Join the military and they will do your laundry for you.
| 600 |
right_wing2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:28pm |
re: #488 Gus 802
That was offered as an amendment, and it was defeated.
| 601 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:38pm |
re: #582 Charles
Just had to kill a bunch of MySQL processes that were stacking up on the DB server for some reason.
Another issue to investigate this weekend.
Death Queries.
| 602 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:13pm |
| 603 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:30pm |
There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.
| 604 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:41pm |
re: #586 haakondahl
Exactly. The reason that Hugh Hewitt has been banging on about how this is, in fact a lie, is because Hugh Hewitt knows how to read, knows how to listen, knows how the government works, and knows how markets work.
The "Ugly Baby" process is my own invention, I am happy to say :-)But you are exactly right. Even if the President truly believes that "you can keep your doctor and or your plan if you like", it just will not be possible if the President's plan goes forward.
Yep. The plan basically forbids private health insurers from managing their risk pool... which is the very heart of the insurance business model. But if someone mentions that the intent is to drive them out of business? Well, Obama and the Dems are shocked, shocked to find there's gambling in this establishment.
| 605 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:51pm |
re: #592 Bubbaman
Gotta run - after another 14.5 hour work day, I actually have to spend some time at home. Good night and don't get sick.
Upding on the 14.5 hour work day, good on you, stay healthy!
| 606 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:55pm |
re: #600 right_wing2
That was offered as an amendment, and it was defeated.
OK Going to fast here. Would be nice to see more bi-partisanship on this bill. I don't like the individual mandate -- I can't afford it.
| 607 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:02pm |
Also, here are the GOP ideas on healhcare:
[Link: www.gop.gov...]
If people are going to criticize Republicans for their lies, then let's do the same for the Dems. People not getting care because they don't have insurance is a lie. The GOP has not proposals, is another lie.
| 608 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:04pm |
re: #589 Wendya
Here's a note on insurance profits:
Humana will have a scant profit margin of 2.79% this year and has had a 9-year average profit margin of only 1.92%. Similarly, Cigna is at about 3.02% for 2009 with an average of 4.73% over the last 9 years. Aetna is at 3.85% with a 9-year average of 4.01%. Wellpoint has numbers of 4.07% and 4.39%; respectively.Note: All these statistics (above and below) were obtained from either Yahoo Finance or from Standard & Poors Stock Reports.
Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%
| 609 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:05pm |
re: #576 Charpete67
no sarc tag?...not the goal...but the inevitable end...I don't see how people can't see that.
I can't imagine how anyone could believe your interpretation, so, well...
| 610 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:08pm |
Anyone whose default is to glom on to government solutions is inherently lazy. IMHO, of course.
| 612 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:19pm |
| 613 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:25pm |
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
| 614 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:27pm |
re: #594 Occasional Reader
Oh, hell, we're ALL Cylons.
/don't get me started... grumble grumble... stupid declining story arc...
LOL, I was bummed by the last season, really pissed the decided stone age was a great idea...
| 615 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:32pm |
re: #599 buzzsawmonkey
It's not a matter of what Obama "can" or "can't" do. It's a matter of comparing his promises with costs, existing government programs, and the government track record, and knowing that what he promises can be delivered only in an alternate universe.
The "lack of satisfaction" comes from knowing he is lying because he cannot suspend the laws of economics to please his constituency. It is not a matter of wanting to mistrust the man--it is a matter of him forcing us to mistrust him because there is no way in hell he can make good on his lovely words.
If you hear resentment here, it is because people dislike having to view their President as a facile mountebank, and resent, deeply, his forcing them to view him as such.
well said!...quoted it to make sure people read this. I'm so sick of people saying that if you disagree, you must hate Obama...maybe we just don't think the government can do a good job with 20% of our economy.
| 616 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:10pm |
re: #603 Kilroy
There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.
Ground unicorn horn will cure all your ills, step right up folks!
| 617 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:15pm |
re: #599 buzzsawmonkey
It's not a matter of what Obama "can" or "can't" do. It's a matter of comparing his promises with costs, existing government programs, and the government track record, and knowing that what he promises can be delivered only in an alternate universe.
Knowing. Right.
If you hear resentment here, it is because people dislike having to view their President as a facile mountebank, and resent, deeply, his forcing them to view him as such.
Thank you for proving my point.
| 618 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:18pm |
re: #602 Coracle
I believe we need reform, and I liked some of what I heard from the president, and I'm pretty skeptical on other parts.
| 619 |
jorline Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:20pm |
re: #598 JohnH
Join the military and they will do your laundry for you.
Liar...I would get stuck in the laundry room doing mine and every one else's.
//
| 620 |
Dahveed Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:02pm |
re: #613 Charles
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
You got it! You do a helluva job!
| 621 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:06pm |
re: #566 marjoriemoon
Free screenings and mammograms are probably a good idea, but one that Dr. Barrett (linked earlier by Charles) doesn't agree with. It's not necessarily going to cut costs either.
The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.
| 622 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:09pm |
re: #619 jorline
Liar...I would get stuck in the laundry room doing mine and every one else's.
//
Well, nothing's perfect I guess. The other alternative was to commit a felony and go to prison.
| 624 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:39pm |
re: #609 SanFranciscoZionist
I can't imagine how anyone could believe your interpretation, so, well...
?...you're saying that a public option won't crowd out the private sector option over time?
| 625 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:41pm |
"Part of the reason I faced a trillion-dollar deficit when I walked in the door of the White House is because too many initiatives over the last decade were not paid for – from the Iraq war to tax breaks for the wealthy."
Can someone please explain how government "pays" when we don't give it more money?
| 626 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:43pm |
re: #201 Charles
It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"
And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
| 627 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:45pm |
re: #587 reine.de.tout
My insurance plan is not-for-profit, because I have my health insurance through my former employer, and they are self-insured for employee health insurance.
And those mammographies and colonoscopies aren't "free" - somebody paid for the equipment and the technicians and the doctors and the time and the facilities.
Well unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept, some insurance company is holding your policy and that company makes a profit. Is it something different?
We're talking about free to the consumer. Having the costs absorbed elsewhere for free mammographies and such saves in the long run because illness can be diagnosed early when its less costly to deal with.
| 628 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:45pm |
re: #588 Izzyboy
Then we'll just bail ourselves out!
/
/just wait until China and other countries stop buying our debt, they're already warning us, but Mr. I'm Going To Double The National Debt doesn't seem to be listening
| 629 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:47pm |
he cannot suspend the laws of economics to please his constituency
Regulation tends to increase costs.
| 631 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:24pm |
re: #589 Wendya
Here's the actual quote:
But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers.
This is what happens when you elect someone who is economically illiterate.
Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.
| 632 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:38pm |
re: #578 alegrias
* * * *
Remember how quickly Joe the Plumber's private records were accessed by an Ohio state government worker, all because when Obama walked onto Joe the Plumber's front lawn, Joe the Plumber asked candidate Obama a question?Trust the state or government NEVER to access your most private medical records IN THEIR POSSESSION.
Bwahaha. Abandon all hope of privacy, ye who enter the "public/singlepayer" option
The IRS has strong regulations in place regarding privacy. ( I got an I-man in the family) and they will lose their jobs and they may be prosecuted for snooping. And they have a strong ethos of privacy developed over many decades.
Once that data gets released to 'the Commission' or whomever you might as well write it on the bathroom wall at the local diner.
| 633 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:43pm |
re: #603 Kilroy
There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.
/you have a problem with that?
| 634 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:46pm |
re: #613 Charles
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
I don't have a Paypal account but I have been using the LGF Amazon store a lot lately.
| 635 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:48pm |
I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
I see things a lot clearer now.
| 636 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:06pm |
re: #618 Sharmuta
I believe we need reform, and I liked some of what I heard from the president, and I'm pretty skeptical on other parts.
I both respect that, and agree with it. I think he's cut a very big challenge for himself and congress. The various bills as written cannot pass - in part because they lack support, in part because they lack some of the things he's defined as necessary, and in part because he can't sign them because they're not deficit neutral. A new bill is going to be needed, or the current one virtually completely rewritten.
| 637 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:06pm |
re: #621 lawhawk
The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.
That's the only part I think that may need a government funded assistance program
| 638 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:07pm |
OT: is this really the most pressing issue that needed a joint session of Congress?
| 639 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:14pm |
re: #634 NJDhockeyfan
I don't have a Paypal account but I have been using the LGF Amazon store a lot lately.
You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.
| 640 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:48pm |
re: #635 Racer X
I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
I see things a lot clearer now.
Ohhh drop it. Don't let me do your thinking for you. I am not the president.
He had good points independent of what I thought about it.
| 641 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:00pm |
re: #625 Danny
Unfunded mandates have grown out of control, and this health care proposal is more of the same - it will not be revenue neutral, and the CBO's most conservative (favorable) figures show it will be out of whack after 10 years - and that's with the most favorable situation.
| 642 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:15pm |
re: #613 Charles
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
Sorry to hear it. Is there smoke pouring out of something important?
| 643 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:19pm |
Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.
Anybody hurl?
| 644 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:20pm |
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.
| 645 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:39pm |
re: #637 LSD
The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.
That's the only part I think that may need a government funded assistance program
With tax breaks.
| 646 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:03pm |
OT:
Now batting... number 2... Derek Jeter... who has already tied Lou Gehrig's record for hits as a NY Yankee...
| 647 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:06pm |
re: #641 lawhawk
Unfunded mandates have grown out of control, and this health care proposal is more of the same - it will not be revenue neutral, and the CBO's most conservative (favorable) figures show it will be out of whack after 10 years - and that's with the most favorable situation.
This Dogfish Head IPA is definitely too damn strong. I read your first two words as "unfunded manatees".
| 648 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:09pm |
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.
I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.
| 649 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:20pm |
re: #639 Sharmuta
You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.
Do you know if it will take a visa "gift" debit card?
| 650 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:51pm |
re: #635 Racer X
I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
I see things a lot clearer now.
That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.
| 651 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:55pm |
re: #644 Coracle
Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.
He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.
| 652 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:03pm |
re: #643 Lucius Septimius
Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.
Anybody hurl?
President Obama gave a fine speech. (Really)
Now lets see a bill that matches (gonna' be a real trick).
| 653 |
Driftwood Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:09pm |
re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote
Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.
Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.
Oh for Christ's sake, an insurance company is a still just a business. It does not hold that sort of power over life and death. If you cannot get health care because no third party has agreed to pay for it, you might want examine the motives of those withholding your treatment until they know they'll get paid.
| 654 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:12pm |
re: #608 jaunte
Here's a note on insurance profits:
Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%
I know. Leftists love to trot out whole numbers while ignoring little things like profit margins.
The net profit margin for health insurance is pretty damned far down this list:
[Link: biz.yahoo.com...]
| 656 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:49pm |
re: #621 lawhawk
Free screenings and mammograms are probably a good idea, but one that Dr. Barrett (linked earlier by Charles) doesn't agree with. It's not necessarily going to cut costs either.
The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.
The free procedures, well they're really screenings anyway, cut costs by catching ealry disease so that's a good benefit for everyone.
I was confused on the pre-existing condition issue. I like it for sure. The problem here is the larger problem with healthcare currently. When you don't have insurance, you're forced to the ER which is a worse economic burden.
| 657 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:58pm |
re: #624 Charpete67
?...you're saying that a public option won't crowd out the private sector option over time?
Yes. That's what I'm saying.
| 658 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:02pm |
re: #631 LudwigVanQuixote
Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.
No, it's economic illiteracy.
| 659 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:07pm |
| 660 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:08pm |
re: #642 Occasional Reader
Sorry to hear it. Is there smoke pouring out of something important?
Not yet -- I'm sitting here watching the processes rage and killing the ones that need killin', but you'd probably be surprised at how much work it takes to keep things running well.
| 661 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:09pm |
re: #640 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh drop it. Don't let me do your thinking for you. I am not the president.
He had good points independent of what I thought about it.
Hee hee! No worries there.
I didn't mean to hit a nerve. I value your input. Just being honest about why I have drifted back towards being against the plan.
| 662 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:12pm |
re: #647 Occasional Reader
This Dogfish Head IPA is definitely too damn strong. I read your first two words as "unfunded manatees".
60 or 90 minute?
| 663 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:16pm |
re: #631 LudwigVanQuixote
Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.
And profits "taken" by farmers are part of me getting my food.
And profits "taken" by tailors are part of me getting my clothing.
Etc.
| 664 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:38pm |
This seems on topic, and it's the first time all three verses appear together. If you know the Valve game Portal ("The cake is a lie!"), then you know this song.
Still Alive--ObamaCare version.
To the tune of Still Alive
Play the song, then sing along!
This was a triumph.
I’m going to sign the bill today
And now Obamacare is law: It’s happened!Nancy Pelosi
Well she was the first
to understand
What it cost for all of us
Except the ones who are dead.So we took the doctors and we showed them the State
And we told them quietly to set a new rate
But they’re all a bunch of jerks
And the system didn’t work
For the people who are still alive..
You’re not even angry.
You and your astroturf town hall.
Arlen Specter said you were
unhelpfulYou shouldn’t have shouted
You shouldn’t have brought a gun that day.
Now your names are on the list I had my staffers review!Pre-existing medical conditions were found
And you’re out of luck if you
so much as feel down
So when you’re lying in your grave
Think of all the bucks you’ve saved
for the people who are still alive..
Congress is waiting
Tell Harry Reid the bill is signed
Tell them all that we are now immortalRound up the schoolkids
Round up the old, the poor, the young
Congress has its work to do and we will need all of youAnd your precious bodily fluids intact
And we’ll build the system on our grandchildren’s backs
Because nothing comes free
But it exists to serve me
Just like the people who are still alive.
| 665 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:42pm |
re: #643 Lucius Septimius
Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.
Anybody hurl?
Yes. Joe Wilson Sr.
| 666 |
yenta-fada Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:44pm |
re: #639 Sharmuta
You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.
You mean you just use your credit card through Paypal?
| 667 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:45pm |
Looks like Rep. Joe Wilson is the number one trending topic on Twitter.
He's the one that yelled out "liar."
| 668 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:45pm |
re: #646 lawhawk
OT:
Now batting... number 2... Derek Jeter... who has already tied Lou Gehrig's record for hits as a NY Yankee...
Thanks. I'm watching it now.
Damn...ball four.
| 669 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:56pm |
re: #652 jcm
President Obama gave a fine speech. (Really)
Now lets see a bill that matches (gonna' be a real trick).
Not likely -- too many political debts to pay.
| 670 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:00pm |
President Obama has a prescription for those receiving unnecessary tests and treatments: focus on what's important and add an ounce of prevention.
"Things like mammograms and cancer screenings and immunizations -- common-sense measures that will save us billions of dollars in future medical costs," he said at a town hall meeting hosted by AARP last month.
It seems reasonable enough that "unnecessary" tests can add up, and "necessary" tests like cancer screenings might catch disease early enough to prevent expensive medical procedures and prescription drugs down the line.
Or maybe not.
"When you talk about prevention that involves visiting a doctor and stumbling upon a high cholesterol that you didn't know about or a high blood pressure, that kind of medical prevention almost inevitably leads to more medical things being done, more medications being prescribed," Dr. Abraham Verghese of the Stanford University School of Medicine told FOX News.
After more tests, a patient with high cholesterol could be prescribed a statin, which might reduce his chance of a heart attack. But because only one or two men among several thousand with high cholesterol might suffer a heart attack, that ounce of prevention could be too costly.
"If you're looking at a population of men, for every life you save, it costs $150,000 to extend life by one year, in terms of statin use," Verghese said.
And take prostate cancer. The current Prostate Specific Antigen or PSA screenings are sensitive enough to detect cancers that may never even impair patients. But doctors can't yet predict which are harmless and which are deadly, meaning that radiation or surgery could leave some of those with harmless cancers feeling worse than if they'd been never been treated. ...
| 671 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:25pm |
re: #666 yenta-fada
You mean you just use your credit card through Paypal?
Yes. When you click on Charles' pay pal link, you will simply pay with a credit or debit card. No need for you to have an account.
| 672 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:46pm |
| 673 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:46pm |
The dirty little secret is that preventive care is actually MORE expensive.
| 674 |
SummerSong Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:57pm |
re: #613 Charles
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
Is there another way you can point me to?
Because when I click-
"Don't have a PayPal account?"
"Use your credit card or bank account (where available). Continue"
It goes nowhere.
| 675 |
experiencedtraveller Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:57pm |
So... the legions of clerks that will be required to manage any 'government' option are going to be new hires or will the work be contracted out to the evil insurance companies?
| 676 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:01pm |
| 677 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:16pm |
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
Except that the whole death panel thing and everything else was actually a lie.
There is nothing low class about speaking the truth.
| 678 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:21pm |
re: #673 JohnH
The dirty little secret is that preventive care is actually MORE expensive.
Than what? You have numbers?
| 679 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:21pm |
| 680 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:23pm |
re: #644 Coracle
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.
It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.
| 681 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:25pm |
re: #656 marjoriemoon
The free procedures, well they're really screenings anyway, cut costs by catching ealry disease so that's a good benefit for everyone.
The argument is that the number of procedures done versus the number of people who will benefit from early detection is not cost-effective. If you're one of those who have a disease caught early via those screenings benefit, but if you're the bean counter trying to make the numbers work - you'd be in a bind.
| 682 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:27pm |
| 684 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:43pm |
| 685 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:44pm |
re: #638 JohnH
OT: is this really the most pressing issue that needed a joint session of Congress?
* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!
| 686 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:07pm |
re: #648 Charles
Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.
I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.
I think he's been sick over the distortions. Everyone has and he wanted to set it straight. Any president would have said the same thing anyway. It's his job to do so. Besides, he never mentioned anyone by name which would have been wrong.
| 687 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:25pm |
re: #678 Coracle
It's simple math. If you run a bunch of tests on lots of people hoping to catch the one that might have or might get the problem you will spend more money than if you just treated the one who actually got the problem.
| 688 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:28pm |
re: #657 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes. That's what I'm saying.
we will have to agree to disagree...but listen to Obama's own words.
| 689 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:35pm |
re: #651 NJDhockeyfan
He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.
She wasn't the only one screaming about killin gramma.
| 690 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:01pm |
re: #608 jaunte
Here's a note on insurance profits:
Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%
FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%
| 691 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:07pm |
re: #689 marjoriemoon
She wasn't the only one screaming about killin gramma.
For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.
| 693 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:19pm |
| 694 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:35pm |
re: #680 mikey_dallas
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.
Except that Palin et al really did lie in the most cynical and base way. They deserve to be called on it. Period.
| 695 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:46pm |
On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards
| 696 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:48pm |
Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats
is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?
| 697 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:51pm |
re: #685 alegrias
* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!
Actually, he said:
As any American who is still looking for work or a way to pay their bills will tell you, we are by no means out of the woods. A full and vibrant recovery is many months away.
| 698 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:53pm |
re: #650 Coracle
That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.
* * *
Pres. Obama is trying to appeal to HIS OWN BLUE DOG democrats. They're the ones not buying his plan.
| 699 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:57pm |
re: #680 mikey_dallas
re: #626 mikey_dallas
Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.
It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.
Not calling them liars directly gives them a the choice to back away from their lies and save face or own their lies. Calling them liars is a direct challenge, not allowing any wiggle room. I know how that made all the difference in a court marshal case, once upon a time.
| 700 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:59pm |
re: #613 Charles
I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.
(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)
We may not agree on politics, but I bet we can all agree to chip in a few bucks. Just takes a couple of minutes.
| 701 |
Code Red 21 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:08pm |
Hit the tip jar we need to keep the head Lizard in business and the hamsters fed.
| 702 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:24pm |
re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote
Except that Palin et al really did lie in the most cynical and base way. They deserve to be called on it. Period.
maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...
| 703 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:24pm |
re: #691 Sharmuta
For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.
Context is everything there. They, the WH, came after her because of her editorial in the WSJ today.
| 704 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:25pm |
re: #695 Edgesitter
On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards
Edwards is why loser pays is so important
| 705 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:29pm |
re: #651 NJDhockeyfan
He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.
But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?
| 706 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:41pm |
re: #414 Coracle
Except he didn't.
Yes, he did.
Finally, many in this chamber – particularly on the Republican side of the aisle – have long insisted that reforming our medical malpractice laws can help bring down the cost of health care. I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I have talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. So I am proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine.
He didn't address lawyers once but he did mention doctors.
| 707 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:44pm |
re: #691 Sharmuta
For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.
I think he mentioned politicians before he mentioned that part.
| 708 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:45pm |
re: #650 Coracle
That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.
Yep, he lectured the progressives by name, than scolded the right.
| 709 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:46pm |
Not enough votes. 44 moderate House Dems are opposed.
According to Drudge.
This would be for HR 3200.
| 710 |
Randall Gross Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:51pm |
If you've got a Kindle you can also help out by subscribing to LGF on it here
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 711 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:58pm |
re: #648 Charles
Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.
I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.
The President is also lying, when he says that "if you like your healthcare plan, if you like your healthcare provider, nobody's going to take that away from you". It is simply not true. I could call it mistaken if not for the hundreds (it seems) of repetitions of this phrase by the President.
| 712 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:03pm |
Thank for the donations, folks. Greatly appreciated.
| 713 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:04pm |
I still like my idea of funding healthcare with a national swear jar:
| 714 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:07pm |
re: #698 alegrias
* * *
Pres. Obama is trying to appeal to HIS OWN BLUE DOG democrats. They're the ones not buying his plan.
Ha!
Don't distract us with FACTS.
| 715 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:11pm |
| 716 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:19pm |
re: #627 marjoriemoon
Well unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept, some insurance company is holding your policy and that company makes a profit. Is it something different?
We're talking about free to the consumer. Having the costs absorbed elsewhere for free mammographies and such saves in the long run because illness can be diagnosed early when its less costly to deal with.
No, my company is self-insured. It collects the premiums, and hires a staff of people to process the claims. They have costs, but they make no "profit". The premiums pay the cost of claims and the cost to have employees processing the claims, but there are no investors or company that makes a profit.
As to the "free" mammographies - yes, I agree, having a medical procedure with the cost absorbed elsewhere is very nice and can save in the long run if it detects things early on, when it's less expensive to treat. I was just pointing out that they aren't "free". Somebody pays something for those "free" diagnostic procedures.
| 717 |
Kilroy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:24pm |
I wish I could use Paypal at my local bar where we all agree that they're death panels--but I still left a tip for LGF!
| 718 |
right_wing2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:26pm |
re: #627 marjoriemoon
Cost savings for screenings depends on how often the condition exists.
If the cost of 1,000 cancer screenings is $100 each (pulling numbers out of my backside here!) catches 200 cancers that cost $10,000 each, then we're ahead of the game. If it catches just 5 cases of cancer at that same $10,000,
then there's no cost savings.
Please note, I'm not saying that screening shouldn't be done- ANY life saved is valuable. I'm simply looking at cost savingshere.
| 719 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:34pm |
re: #676 BignJames
Love the 60...90...not so much.
Really? What's ya got against the 90?
Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?
| 720 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:45pm |
re: #655 yenta-fada
Yup, that's the card dealt from the bottom of the deck.
| 721 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:52pm |
re: #690 mikey_dallas
FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%
that makes for a lot of 'walking around' money.
| 722 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:54pm |
re: #690 mikey_dallas
FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%
WOO HOO!
I mean... um... that's unconscionable!
| 723 |
cronus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:55pm |
re: #678 Coracle
Than what? You have numbers?
Congressional Budget Expert Says Preventive Care Will Raise -- Not Cut -- Costs
| 724 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:57pm |
re: #686 marjoriemoon
I think he's been sick over the distortions. Everyone has and he wanted to set it straight. Any president would have said the same thing anyway. It's his job to do so. Besides, he never mentioned anyone by name which would have been wrong.
Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.
There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.
| 726 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:16pm |
re: #705 LudwigVanQuixote
But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?
Offend my sensibilities? WTF are you talking about? I am not defending her.
| 728 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:39pm |
re: #719 Lucius Septimius
Really? What's ya got against the 90?
Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?
[bows head in reverence]
I have.
| 729 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:49pm |
re: #687 JohnH
It's simple math. If you run a bunch of tests on lots of people hoping to catch the one that might have or might get the problem you will spend more money than if you just treated the one who actually got the problem.
You assume a) that preventive care consists of a bunch of tests, and b) that treatment is less expensive than some small number of tests. What if preventive care includes - or is even dominated by things like responsible eating and exercise, and the tests that are performed on average cost a small fraction of makor intervention? My scenario is just as likely and more common sense than yours unless you have numbers to say otherwise.
| 730 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:53pm |
re: #702 Charpete67
maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...
Well, that would be the biblical way of phrasing it. Liar however is sufficient.
| 731 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:05pm |
re: #719 Lucius Septimius
Really? What's ya got against the 90?
Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?
Still waiting to get a batch out here to the upper left hand corner. Got a Raison D'Etre right now.
| 732 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:11pm |
re: #703 JohnH
Context is everything there. They, the WH, came after her because of her editorial in the WSJ today.
Right- because I'm sure they wrote the speech today.
| 733 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:18pm |
re: #726 NJDhockeyfan
Offend my sensibilities? WTF are you talking about? I am not defending her.
Then I misread you and I apologize.
| 734 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:22pm |
re: #644 Coracle
Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.
The difference is neither subtle nor important. It is merely grammar. A subtle and important difference exists between the words falsehood and lie, but not between lie and liar.
| 735 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:33pm |
re: #685 alegrias
* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!
Obama's "Mission accomplished" moment
| 737 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:44pm |
re: #690 mikey_dallas
FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%
* * * *
Sure they were profitable, after they laid off several of us!
They called it the Valentine's Day Massacre (of lawyers fired) here in DC.
| 738 |
calcajun Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:16pm |
re: #727 Gus 802
Rep. Joe Wilson has achieved fame tonight.
/
Another legend that will last a lunchtime.
| 739 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:17pm |
re: #733 LudwigVanQuixote
Then I misread you and I apologize.
Apology accepted. Coulda happened to any lizard.
;)
| 740 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:20pm |
| 741 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:22pm |
the zero in the recent past SAID GOV'T COULD RUN IT CHEAPER IF THAT ISN'T A BOLD FACED LIE NOTHING IS!
Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats
is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?
| 742 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:22pm |
re: #730 LudwigVanQuixote
Well, that would be the biblical way of phrasing it. Liar however is sufficient.
...it's the term he used when he was talking to pastors on a conference call a few weeks back...he accused some people on the right of bearing false witness.
| 743 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:28pm |
| 744 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:31pm |
| 745 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:48pm |
re: #688 Charpete67
we will have to agree to disagree...but listen to Obama's own words.
'Fraid I don't see anything but a goal of eliminating employer-based coverage, and the whole thing is clips out of context.
Single payer is not going to happen under Barack Obama's administration.
Agree to disagree then.
| 746 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:01pm |
re: #732 Sharmuta
Right- because I'm sure they wrote the speech today.
Well, they were out there responding to her TODAY.
| 747 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:02pm |
re: #705 LudwigVanQuixote
But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?
Sarah Palin didn't win the election. She's a citizen now, not even a governor. Obama, on the other hand is the President of the United States and he lied to the American people tonight. Forgive me for not getting wound up over Palin's hyperbole.
| 748 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:03pm |
re: #737 alegrias
I know a firm that mandated two week unpaid vacations for everyone, so they could avoid firing anyone. No industry has gone untouched in this recession.
| 749 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:04pm |
re: #743 Chekote
But the economy is getting better.
/sarc
Just like the Mamma Cass Song...
"... getting better every day..."
| 751 |
Chekote Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:09pm |
re: #740 DrNaughty
I am sure Joe Wilson will make the talk shows. They are so predictible. Hannity will have him on.
| 752 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:11pm |
re: #729 Coracle
Here's the study that thought may have come from:
Many politicians are betting that pending health care legislation will save taxpayers billions of dollars by increasing support for preventive care and ultimately reducing the need for expensive medical interventions in the years to come. But a new study adds to the evidence that while preventive health care may save lives, it does not necessarily save money.[Link: prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com...]
| 753 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:19pm |
re: #737 alegrias
* * * *
Sure they were profitable, after they laid off several of us!They called it the Valentine's Day Massacre (of lawyers fired) here in DC.
Sorry to hear that, alegrias. Apologies for my joke upthread.
| 754 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:23pm |
re: #706 Wendya
He didn't address lawyers once but he did mention doctors.
Because doctors are being hurt.
Wanting to reform malpractice laws, of course, doesn't affect lawyers at all.
/
| 755 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:25pm |
re: #727 Gus 802
I'm sure he's a right wing hero.
| 756 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:26pm |
re: #695 Edgesitter
On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards
* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.
That's some people's idea of presidential.
| 757 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:37pm |
re: #738 calcajun
Another legend that will last a lunchtime.
Yeah, might make a few morning news programs for an interview.
| 758 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:51pm |
| 759 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:52pm |
re: #746 JohnH
Well, they were out there responding to her TODAY.
Bit different than thinking the speech was about her. Probably was, but to think it was from today's WSJ is silly.
| 760 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:59pm |
| 761 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:05pm |
re: #755 Killgore Trout
I'm sure he's a right wing hero.
Not for this right-winger.
Please, Killgore.
| 762 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:19pm |
re: #756 alegrias
* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.That's some people's idea of presidential.
One has to realize that the media knew all about Edwards and decided to be quiet about it untill he dropped out of the campaign.
| 763 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:19pm |
re: #745 SanFranciscoZionist
'Fraid I don't see anything but a goal of eliminating employer-based coverage, and the whole thing is clips out of context.
Single payer is not going to happen under Barack Obama's administration.
Agree to disagree then.
you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?
| 764 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:23pm |
re: #757 Gus 802
Yeah, might make a few morning news programs for an interview.
Fox, I'm sure, will love to have him.
| 765 |
Occasional Reader Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:31pm |
| 766 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:32pm |
Note: I noticed that the stalker blog is screaming that I revealed personal information I got from Paypal donations, and trying to get Paypal to cancel my account.
This is a rotten lie, as with most of the garbage posted at that site. I have never revealed personal information from Paypal donations and I never will.
Those obsessed morons seem to think that the only way I can track them down is by Paypal donations, but they are very mistaken.
| 767 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:49pm |
re: #727 Gus 802
Rep. Joe Wilson has achieved fame tonight.
/
Look for a cavity search, IRS audit of Mr Wilson./
| 768 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:03pm |
re: #742 Charpete67
...it's the term he used when he was talking to pastors on a conference call a few weeks back...he accused some people on the right of bearing false witness.
Well he was telling the truth.
| 769 |
McJenny50 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:06pm |
re: #415 Killgore Trout
I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.
Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.
Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find "common ground" on healthcare reform.
But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.
| 770 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:13pm |
re: #763 Charpete67
you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?
Once the government's nose gets into the tent. It's like the 9th Army taking the Remagen Bridge over the Rhine...
| 771 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:34pm |
re: #731 jcm
Still waiting to get a batch out here to the upper left hand corner. Got a Raison D'Etre right now.
Yum.
I'm fresh out of decent beer. I need to go get myself some of this.
| 772 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:43pm |
re: #723 cronus
Congressional Budget Expert Says Preventive Care Will Raise -- Not Cut -- Costs
Thanks. I will read that. Then I'll need to compare that to the new proposals that will be on the table in the aftermath of this speech.
| 773 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:51pm |
re: #767 avanti
Look for a cavity search, IRS audit of Mr Wilson./
"Get me Dr. Emanuel on the phone. I would like to get Mr. Wilson added to the panel."
//
| 774 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:53pm |
re: #747 Wendya
Sarah Palin didn't win the election. She's a citizen now, not even a governor. Obama, on the other hand is the President of the United States and he lied to the American people tonight. Forgive me for not getting wound up over Palin's hyperbole.
Plenty of others in office repeated her smears. The GOP does not get off the hook that easily.
| 776 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:07pm |
re: #747 Wendya
the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package
Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats
is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?
| 777 |
The Shadow Do Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:18pm |
You know, if he had just trotted out those styrofoam greek columns tonight...
| 778 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:32pm |
re: #766 Charles
Note: I noticed that the stalker blog is screaming that I revealed personal information I got from Paypal donations, and trying to get Paypal to cancel my account.
This is a rotten lie, as with most of the garbage posted at that site. I have never revealed personal information from Paypal donations and I never will.
Those obsessed morons seem to think that the only way I can track them down is by Paypal donations, but they are very mistaken.
WOW.
| 779 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:35pm |
re: #756 alegrias
* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.That's some people's idea of presidential.
But thankfully not enough!
| 780 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:36pm |
| 782 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:39pm |
re: #774 LudwigVanQuixote
Plenty of others in office repeated her smears. The GOP does not get off the hook that easily.
However the Democrats never get called about telling the elderly that the Republicans will take away their social security checks...
| 783 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:49pm |
re: #776 yochanan
the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package
Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats
is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?
So you reject the science because a good republican should?
| 784 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:50pm |
re: #719 Lucius Septimius
Really? What's ya got against the 90?
Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?
after beer gets much above 8% abv...it's a little sweet for my tastes
| 785 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:56pm |
re: #708 avanti
Yep, he lectured the progressives by name, than scolded the right.
* * *
Obama is trying to get the wobbly Democrats in line.
Some Democrats don't want to get fired by their constituents.
| 786 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:01pm |
re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.
There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.
I agree.
Speaking of which - Charles Rangle should be making figurines in a wood shop in a Federal Penitentiary.
| 787 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:10pm |
re: #768 LudwigVanQuixote
Well he was telling the truth.
i updinged you for being so far in the tank committed to Obama
| 788 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:16pm |
re: #763 Charpete67
you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?
I think he's mistaken, and he ain't gonna be president in 15-20 years.
| 789 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:23pm |
Reading for beer lovers:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 790 |
flyers1974 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm |
re: #712 Charles
When I try to type the information required under "billing information" nothing happens.
| 791 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm |
AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama
The culprit was South Carolina rep Joe Wilson, who felt moved to act when The One told what was, in fact, a lie. Although certainly not his biggest of the night: Where this jackass gets off lecturing Americans on civility after his cretinous cronies spent a month demagoging the hell out of every protester in sight is beyond me. You’re Mr. Clean, aren’t you, champ?
Commenters...
Every word out of 0bama’s mouth is a lie, the entire republican party could (should?) have stood up during the speech and chanted “liar” through the whole thing, at that would have been just fine in my book.
There we have it.
| 792 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm |
| 793 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:44pm |
The President pledged that he would not sign a bill "that increases the deficit on single dime" to rousing applause.
Assuming that there are (arguably unsustainable) deficits as far as they eye can see, this would indicate that the bill that he signs into law will be the first government program that costs nothing, correct?
Is he an alchemist, the greatest financial mind in American history, a cynical liar or simply a man who believes his own hubris?
Methinks this may be Obama's "read my lips" moment.
| 794 |
Edgesitter Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:46pm |
I am retired, and my former employer will quickly dump me on the 'public option' if it suits their bottom line. The 'public option' will quickly become the ONLY option and that will be socialized medicine through the back door.
| 795 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:46pm |
re: #648 Charles
Charles,
To me the whole death panel thing is NOT what Palin has said, it is directly related to HR 3200 provisions for panels to determine what are the "cost effective" medical treatments to be allowed.
This leads to the whole issue of Quality Adjusted Remaining Years (QARY), and if you need $20K in medical treatment and that will buy you 3 more years of quality life, and a year of quality life is determined by one of these panels to be worth $5K, then you only get $15K of benefit from $20 K of medical treatment. Treatment DENIED. You don't get 3 more years of "quality life", you get nothing but what amounts to a death sentence by denial of treatment that would extend quality life for you.
The panel is not killing you, it's just not giving you treatment that would save you.
Don't like the death panel terminology? Fine. But the practical effect of the issue is what we should be debating.
HR 3200 doesn't specify QARY analysis, but it does point to something that is either that or substantially similar to that.
Obama won't address that matter directly (or even indirectly), he just tosses the issue off as a lie and leaves it at that.
| 796 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:51pm |
re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.
There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.
Then you have no issue with Rep. Wilson?
For the record, despite the President's repeated lies, I do not think it was apropriate for Mr. Wilson to spout off like that. We have a Congress, not some shabby European parliament, where that sort of hooting is apparently encouraged..
| 798 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:37pm |
ncreasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that "the buck stops here." Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.
re: #776 yochanan
the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package
Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats
is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?
| 799 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:41pm |
re: #735 n in wi
Obama's "Mission accomplished" moment
* * * **
N in WI,
You're a genius! Touche.
Totally laughable.
| 800 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:46pm |
re: #702 Charpete67
maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...
You were instructed to forget that by the men in black, were you not?
| 801 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:49pm |
| 802 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:50pm |
re: #771 Lucius Septimius
Yum.
I'm fresh out of decent beer. I need to go get myself some of this.
Bookmarked, I'm gonna' have to head down to my Beer Mart and find me some of that.
| 803 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:23pm |
re: #800 haakondahl
You were instructed to forget that by the men in black, were you not?
how did you know?...
| 804 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:27pm |
re: #784 BignJames
after beer gets much above 8% abv...it's a little sweet for my tastes
With a IBU of 120?
| 805 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:35pm |
re: #752 jaunte
Here's the study that thought may have come from:
Thanks. "Not necessarily saving money" and "costing more" are different claims. And only part of the proposal, of course. Clearly even those who don't think preventive care is a net cost savings disagree on the degree it is neutral or negative, so it all needs to be folded in to consideration with what is in fact being proposed.
| 806 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:15pm |
re: #787 Charpete67
i updinged you for being so
far in the tankcommitted to Obama
You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.
However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.
| 808 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:39pm |
re: #791 Killgore Trout
AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obamat.
/knocking Obama's speech right out of the news cycle
| 809 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:51pm |
| 810 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:53pm |
re: #805 Coracle
Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!
| 811 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:01pm |
re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote
You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.
However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.
One does have to look hard though to find that needle in the haystack at times
| 813 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:18pm |
re: #681 lawhawk
The argument is that the number of procedures done versus the number of people who will benefit from early detection is not cost-effective. If you're one of those who have a disease caught early via those screenings benefit, but if you're the bean counter trying to make the numbers work - you'd be in a bind.
I'm sorry hawk, I'm not following you.
Mammography screening is generally done over the age of 35. Currently, it's free over that age, unless you have additional diagnostic procedures (have a family history) then you may have to pay something.
Colonoscopies are generally suggested after age 50 so you're not getting these screenings unless you meet those ages. Not that anyone would want to get a colonoscopy unless they need to.
| 814 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:24pm |
re: #810 jaunte
Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!
He took preventative measures...
*ducks*
| 815 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:30pm |
re: #776 yochanan
You sound like you're channeling tfk, there.
| 816 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:58pm |
re: #769 McJenny50
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.
| 817 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:10pm |
re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote
You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.
However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.
lighten up Francis...I was kidding...
| 818 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:17pm |
re: #753 Occasional Reader
Sorry to hear that, alegrias. Apologies for my joke upthread.
* * * *
No problema, OR. Plenty of laid off people are laughing at this excellent news that our economy's "back from the brink".
| 819 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:49pm |
re: #796 haakondahl
Then you have no issue with Rep. Wilson?
For the record, despite the President's repeated lies, I do not think it was apropriate for Mr. Wilson to spout off like that. We have a Congress, not some shabby European parliament, where that sort of hooting is apparently encouraged..
And what were the "repeated lies" in Obama's speech for one? For another, you are correct about decorum.
Given that the entire bill has been the subject of the grossest and worst lies and distortions by the "patriotic" opposition, there is nothing wrong with the President using his time to speak to set the record straight. Mr. Wilson can lie, that the president was a liar on his own time.
| 820 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:00pm |
re: #816 Killgore Trout
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.
We agree there is a need for healthcare reform.
What is in debate is the attempt by the left to control your healthcare.
| 821 |
Racer X Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:01pm |
Whew!
I finally caught up.
And now I'm gonna go put some salmon on the grill.
(all you guys talking about it the other day made me hungry)
| 822 |
Bloodnok Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:03pm |
re: #790 flyers1974
When I try to type the information required under "billing information" nothing happens.
Make sure you select the amount and press "Update Total" before you put the billing info in or it will erase it.
| 823 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:19pm |
| 824 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:22pm |
re: #791 Killgore Trout
AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama
There we have it.
Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.
Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.
| 825 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:34pm |
re: #811 DrNaughty
the kid was in congress digging in a pile of road apples and his mom asks him why he is doing it and he answers with this much horse shit there got to be a pony somewhere.
| 827 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:00pm |
re: #823 BignJames
Yeah...I'm a hop head...I think of 120 as..."lightly hopped"
LOL!
Beer debate and tasting!
| 828 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:04pm |
re: #791 Killgore Trout
AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama
There we have it.
Pointing out the abundant ugliness on the right does little to address the merits of the bill, the proposal, or the speech; take your pick.
And so there we have what? Killgore, I do not read comments at Hot Air anymore. You know why? Because they're mired in ignorance and to put it mildly, very bad manners. I come *here*, and I don't go *there*.
Is there some point you wish to prove, "There we have it", that is buttressed by quoting comments from a site that most here won't even go to?
| 829 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:22pm |
re: #825 yochanan
the kid was in congress digging in a pile of road apples and his mom asks him why he is doing it and he answers with this much horse shit there got to be a pony somewhere.
lol precisely...
| 830 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:27pm |
re: #824 Charles
Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.
Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.
I don't think my wife is laughing ...
| 831 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:32pm |
| 832 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:34pm |
re: #816 Killgore Trout
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.
A very Obama-ish position. The only serious people are people that agree with him, and if you don't agree with him then you aren't serious in solving the problem. Republicans HAVE health care reform proposals. You may not like them, but they have them. They want to prevent Obama's vision for reform. That doesn't make them not serious.
| 833 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:40pm |
re: #793 MacDuff
The President pledged that he would not sign a bill "that increases the deficit on single dime" to rousing applause.
Assuming that there are (arguably unsustainable) deficits as far as they eye can see, this would indicate that the bill that he signs into law will be the first government program that costs nothing, correct?
Is he an alchemist, the greatest financial mind in American history, a cynical liar or simply a man who believes his own hubris?
Methinks this may be Obama's "read my lips" moment.
That is possible. It's certainly a tall order.
| 834 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:02pm |
re: #762 DrNaughty
One has to realize that the media knew all about Edwards and decided to be quiet about it untill he dropped out of the campaign.
* * * *
Edward's wife was in on it too; how grotesque for all involved.
| 835 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:28pm |
re: #716 reine.de.tout
No, my company is self-insured. It collects the premiums, and hires a staff of people to process the claims. They have costs, but they make no "profit". The premiums pay the cost of claims and the cost to have employees processing the claims, but there are no investors or company that makes a profit.
As to the "free" mammographies - yes, I agree, having a medical procedure with the cost absorbed elsewhere is very nice and can save in the long run if it detects things early on, when it's less expensive to treat. I was just pointing out that they aren't "free". Somebody pays something for those "free" diagnostic procedures.
Ain't nuthin free of course, but the consumer gets the savings which is a good thing.
Mr. Moon was just explaining your healthcare to me. You don't have investors. Makes sense.
Why would people object to a government plan run the same way? Especially if it already exists?
| 836 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:33pm |
re: #797 taxfreekiller
So, the deal on the illegals getting free health care.
Any one on TV lie about that tonight?
Nope.
| 837 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:34pm |
re: #832 mikey_dallas
A very Obama-ish position. The only serious people are people that agree with him, and if you don't agree with him then you aren't serious in solving the problem. Republicans HAVE health care reform proposals. You may not like them, but they have them. They want to prevent Obama's vision for reform. That doesn't make them not serious.
The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with Republican proposals that have been rejected...
| 838 |
Salamantis Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:57pm |
re: #566 marjoriemoon
There are? Can you name any?
My understanding of all of this is
1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car
Owning a car is optional; owning a body is mandatory.
| 839 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:58pm |
Just saw this on Drudge
WHIP COUNT: DEMS LACK THE VOTES
At least 44 more moderate Members of the Democrat Caucus have gone on the record in opposition to the current health care bill in the House, a Hill source claims. Likewise, at least 57 liberal Members of the Democrat Caucus have gone on the record saying they will vote against a health care bill without a strong public option.Unless multiple Democrats flip on their stated position on health care, Speaker Pelosi lacks the votes to pass a bill through the House on the strength of Democrat votes alone.
| 840 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:01pm |
re: #834 alegrias
* * * *
Edward's wife was in on it too; how grotesque for all involved.
Power corrupts..
| 841 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:29pm |
re: #828 haakondahl
Pointing out the abundant ugliness on the right does little to address the merits of the bill, the proposal, or the speech; take your pick.
And so there we have what? Killgore, I do not read comments at Hot Air anymore. You know why? Because they're mired in ignorance and to put it mildly, very bad manners. I come *here*, and I don't go *there*.
Is there some point you wish to prove, "There we have it", that is buttressed by quoting comments from a site that most here won't even go to?
NO but it does force them to actually consider doing their jobs and coming up with something useful.
| 842 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:33pm |
re: #810 jaunte
Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!
Sometimememes I type to fast.
| 843 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:45pm |
re: #838 Salamantis
Owning a car is optional; owning a body is mandatory.
You can also drive a vehicle on your own properly without insurance.
The only time it is required is when you drive a vehicle on a public street
| 844 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:46pm |
re: #816 Killgore Trout
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.
Oh, no. Will they lose your support again in three more hours? How long has this clarity been increasing?
| 845 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:52pm |
I'm disabled, I have Epilepsy, and Medicare sucks. Don't do me any favors Obama, if your "Health Insurance Plan" is anything like what I have now. Be afraid America, be very afraid.
| 846 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:24:38pm |
re: #824 Charles
Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.
Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.
BTW,what the hell was that pink thing Michelle was wearing?
Liked both Nancy and Hillary's outfits.
| 847 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:24:59pm |
re: #827 jcm
LOL!
Beer debate and tasting!
When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade
| 848 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:06pm |
re: #845 sngnsgt
But it is better than nothing no?
| 849 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:10pm |
re: #792 Lucius Septimius
Just remember that hops are related to cannabis.
Well, it seems that cannabis is bogarting all the THC.
| 850 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:36pm |
Unmentioned so far:
Just how will the health administrators know how much you have to pay, based on your income? I guess a bunch of pencil pushers in the new health bureaucracy will have full access to all of our tax returns...how wonderful
| 851 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:46pm |
re: #846 SanFranciscoZionist
BTW,what the hell was that pink thing Michelle was wearing?
Liked both Nancy and Hillary's outfits.
It's kind of the standard Jackie Kennedy first lady uniform. Nancy Reagan's was red.
| 852 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:51pm |
some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?
| 853 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:57pm |
"Re: Joe Wilson appreciation Thread Quote
JOE 2012!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 719893
He doesnt realize that his comment just put him in the running for president. He will when the RNC calls him in about 30 minutes."
joe Wilson appreciation thread.
Unfrigging unbelievable.
| 854 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:58pm |
| 855 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:02pm |
re: #844 haakondahl
Oh, no. Will they lose your support again in three more hours? How long has this clarity been increasing?
u say what I am thinking...I am moving away from the closet...
| 856 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:03pm |
| 857 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:04pm |
re: #837 DrNaughty
The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with Republican proposals that have been rejected...
That is absolutely false.
The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with used botox syringes. The Rep. proposals are in the paper recycling bin.
| 858 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:13pm |
re: #847 BignJames
When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade
If I had the time (damn kids // ) I'd try my hand at home brewing.
| 859 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:42pm |
re: #841 LudwigVanQuixote
NO but it does force them to actually consider doing their jobs and coming up with something useful.
Uh, big negatory, good buddy, but even if that were true, then why wouldn't Killgore simply swing that bat OVER THERE? Not over here, but OVER THERE?
| 860 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:46pm |
re: #839 NJDhockeyfan
All hail Drudge. That guy couldn't hit wrong if it were taped to his fist.
| 861 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:54pm |
re: #786 Racer X
I agree.
Speaking of which - Charles Rangle should be making figurines in a wood shop in a Federal Penitentiary.
* * * *
Federal Penitentiary care is probably better than Veterans Administration care, to which Charles Rangel is legally entitled.
Sad that this Korean War veteran became such a cheat & scam artiste as a politician at the public trough.
But Rangel would never lower himself to accept Veterans Admin. care.
| 862 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:55pm |
| 863 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:13pm |
re: #653 Driftwood
Oh for Christ's sake, an insurance company is a still just a business. It does not hold that sort of power over life and death. If you cannot get health care because no third party has agreed to pay for it, you might want examine the motives of those withholding your treatment until they know they'll get paid.
Except that if the insurance company has been cashing your premium checks for years, maybe they have more of an obligation to actually keep the promises they made to induce you to buy that policy in the first place.
| 864 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:18pm |
re: #847 BignJames
When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade
I like rye IPAs -- not to everyone's taste, though.
| 865 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:38pm |
Has the deductible for ObamaCare been mentioned anywhere?
| 866 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:41pm |
re: #852 yochanan
some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?
...stare in to my eyes...you are feeling sleepy...go to your happy place...love me...love me...
| 867 |
im_gumby_damnit Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:44pm |
re: #474 Charles
It's a raging debate to be sure!
Personally, I think there are ways to encourage competition without injecting the government into the process. (Frankly, the strategy seems antithetical to the objective.) I think detaching health insurance from employment and allowing competition over state lines would be a better place to start.
That being said, I would be open to a program that provides gap coverage to Americans who slip between the cracks in private care and Medicaid. My understanding is that the number of U.S. citizens (excluding illegal aliens who have access to government care in their home countries) who fall into this category may be relatively small (approximately 8 million people). I would propose that the program be paid for by cuts in less essential programs rather than further taxes or debt.
| 868 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:47pm |
re: #858 jcm
If I had the time (damn kids // ) I'd try my hand at home brewing.
It's not difficult...can you make soup?
| 869 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:01pm |
re: #852 yochanan
some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?
It was all lies according to you. There. I just saved you an hour.
| 870 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:08pm |
re: #850 mikey_dallas
Unmentioned so far:
Just how will the health administrators know how much you have to pay, based on your income? I guess a bunch of pencil pushers in the new health bureaucracy will have full access to all of our tax returns...how wonderful
Nah, we'll probably just have to fill out forms declaring our income and sign under penalty of perjury. Sorta like when we do our tax returns.
| 871 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:19pm |
re: #848 LudwigVanQuixote
But it is better than nothing no?
It is better than nothing, but it's also a bunch of bureaucratic BS.
| 872 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:26pm |
re: #853 avanti
"Re: Joe Wilson appreciation Thread Quote
JOE 2012!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 719893He doesnt realize that his comment just put him in the running for president. He will when the RNC calls him in about 30 minutes."
joe Wilson appreciation thread.
Unfrigging unbelievable.
Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.
| 873 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:30pm |
re: #864 Lucius Septimius
I like rye IPAs -- not to everyone's taste, though.
Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.
And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.
| 874 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:42pm |
re: #865 NJDhockeyfan
Has the deductible for ObamaCare been mentioned anywhere?
Your freedom...small price for a free colonoscopy.
| 875 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:45pm |
re: #843 DrNaughty
You can also drive a vehicle on your own properly without insurance.
The only time it is required is when you drive a vehicle on a public street
Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?
Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?
| 876 |
Mich-again Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:55pm |
re: #816 Killgore Trout
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it.
The GOP supports tort reform. That should be a part of healthcare reform. When the Dems took that right off the table it was obvious they weren't terribly interested in working with Republicans.
| 877 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:56pm |
re: #872 Bobibutu
Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.
For good reason
| 878 |
LSD Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:04pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
Not meant to be nasty at all. Millions of Americans have nothing.
And millions of those millions choose to be that way.
| 880 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:30pm |
re: #860 Coracle
All hail Drudge. That guy couldn't hit wrong if it were taped to his fist.
/I haven't heard anyone say they have the votes to get a "public option" through the Senate, just the opposite
| 881 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:34pm |
re: #795 mikey_dallas
* * * *
Thank you for that concise explanation of the actuarial calculation used in the Veterans Administration and probably, HMOs, to decide whether a patient is WORTH treating!
| 882 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:37pm |
re: #873 LudwigVanQuixote
Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.
And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.
Pa? As in JoePa?
| 883 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:39pm |
re: #861 alegrias
* * * *
Federal Penitentiary care is probably better than Veterans Administration care, to which Charles Rangel is legally entitled.Sad that this Korean War veteran became such a cheat & scam artiste as a politician at the public trough.
But Rangel would never lower himself to accept Veterans Admin. care.
WE SHOULD DEMAND THAT ALL THE CONGRESSCRITTERS, GET THERE CARE AT THE V.A. so at least then the real heros might get better care.
ncreasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that "the buck stops here." Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.
| 884 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:45pm |
re: #871 sngnsgt
It is better than nothing, but it's also a bunch of bureaucratic BS.
I don't debate that. That is why I very much liked the proposal to have doctors and health care providers find ways to eliminate waste in gov't programs.
| 885 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:06pm |
re: #839 NJDhockeyfan
Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.
| 886 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:15pm |
re: #833 Coracle
That is possible. It's certainly a tall order.
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
| 887 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:17pm |
re: #875 marjoriemoon
Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?
Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?
If you own more than a driveway there is no need to register it with the government.. as long as it is not driven on a public street or highway.
| 888 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:43pm |
re: #881 alegrias
* * * *
Thank you for that concise explanation of the actuarial calculation used in the Veterans Administration and probably, HMOs, to decide whether a patient is WORTH treating!
my pleasure. I just wish that issue would get some play in the media.
| 889 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:48pm |
re: #875 marjoriemoon
Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?
Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?
Virginia. Just pay the state $400.
Unless they canceled that program.
| 890 |
Salamantis Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:49pm |
I can hear Joe Wilson's cable news talk show defence already:
"Well, he called us liars first!"
| 891 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:02pm |
re: #882 Lucius Septimius
Pa? As in JoePa?
He has been somewhat famous for a certain football team in the same state...
| 892 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:03pm |
re: #886 MacDuff
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
Then you don't have to believe it. I will believe it if and when I see it and it makes sense.
| 893 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:15pm |
re: #839 NJDhockeyfan
Just saw this on Drudge
HR3200 - The 1 Trillion (or is it 900 billion?) IRS rape/ tax, fee and tax budget buster - must be scrapped.
| 894 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:41pm |
re: #873 LudwigVanQuixote
Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.
And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.
Preference in Belgian Ales? Recommendations? I like New Belgium's 1554 and Abbey.
| 895 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:52pm |
re: #886 MacDuff
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
The IRS.
| 897 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:23pm |
re: #876 Mich-again
The GOP supports tort reform.
I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
| 899 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:40pm |
re: #885 lawhawk
Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.
It's unfortunate that the fact is that many Democrats value their seat in congress more than obama's pie in the sky.
| 900 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:55pm |
re: #894 jcm
Preference in Belgian Ales? Recommendations? I like New Belgium's 1554 and Abbey.
Nice nice...
I am a big fan of Chimay. I also like Corsendock and Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.
| 901 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:55pm |
So here's what I've wanted someone to ask the Pres and Nana Pelosi et al since this all came about
President Obama stated very clearly tonight that we will partially pay for this by eliminating waste and fraud in Medicare/Cade systems
IF they know there is that much waste and fraud, why do we have to wait for this (or any other) bill that needs funding to CUT said watse and fraud!
AND ,,, if this bill does NOT pass (meaning it doen;t have to be funded) will that mean they then see no NEED to cut the waste and fraud!?!?!
Government in action
Government inaction
| 902 |
lawhawk Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:57pm |
re: #813 marjoriemoon
The cost to the patient might be free - but the procedure itself has a cost - in time and money (the technician who performs the test, the radiologist interpreting the results, and the equipment upkeep).
If you only look at the cost to the patient, you're missing the true cost of the care.
| 903 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:08pm |
| 904 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:12pm |
| 905 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:17pm |
| 906 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:21pm |
| 907 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:27pm |
re: #897 Charles
I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
So very very true.
| 908 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:52pm |
re: #901 sattv4u2
So here's what I've wanted someone to ask the Pres and Nana Pelosi et al since this all came about
President Obama stated very clearly tonight that we will partially pay for this by eliminating waste and fraud in Medicare/Cade systems
IF they know there is that much waste and fraud, why do we have to wait for this (or any other) bill that needs funding to CUT said watse and fraud!
AND ,,, if this bill does NOT pass (meaning it doen;t have to be funded) will that mean they then see no NEED to cut the waste and fraud!?!?!Government in action
Government inaction
I wondered the same damn thing...
| 909 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:57pm |
re: #897 Charles
I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers? That's new to me! That would be pretty funny if they were forced to back off tort reform to stay in opposition to health care. That would be a masterful move.
| 910 |
lostlakehiker Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:04pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.
The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.
(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.
(2) Disincentives for using the ER for primary care. As, for instance, somebody comes to the ER for poison ivy, give them a voucher for a visit to a clinic. The poison ivy can wait.
(3) Preexisting condition reform. The democrats want this. Agree to it already. Make their day.
(4) Tort reform. Much of the cost of medicine is the cost of keeping the lawyers at bay.
(5) Mistake-reform. Hospitals need to have a way to own up to mistakes or bad practices and fix them without getting pilloried. We have this now with air traffic control.
(6) Admit that some things have to be rationed. There are only so many hearts out there available for transplant. Some way or other, somehow or other, one person gets it and the other doesn't.
(7) Admit that some causes are hopeless. Extreme and heroic efforts on behalf of those who have nil or next to nil prospects should be available only upon payment by the patient or a proxy. If we really have to cut costs, or cap the growth of costs, when a woman just 20 weeks along goes into labor and delivers a (barely) alive baby, the poor kid should be let die. It is doomed. The doctors can try. They can prolong its agony. But they cannot nurse it through to where it can live to see any birthdays. [At any rate, no one has ever succeeded in the attempt. Not even once.]
At the other end, if/when yours truly has exhausted the arsenal of treatment and nothing has worked, should it come to that, another surgery on top of the other, scraping for another week in the ICU before the inevitable end comes, is just not reasonable. There is a time for living, and a time for dying.
| 912 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:30pm |
| 913 |
cronus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:33pm |
re: #880 Killian Bundy
/I haven't heard anyone say they have the votes to get a "public option" through the Senate, just the opposite
Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.
| 914 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:57pm |
re: #900 LudwigVanQuixote
Nice nice...
I am a big fan of Chimay. I also like Corsendock and Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.
Tried Chimay Red, very good I'lll look for the other two.
| 915 |
brookly red Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:57pm |
re: #899 DrNaughty
It's unfortunate that the fact is that many Democrats value their seat in congress more than obama's pie in the sky.
well they have such a good health plan in congress.
| 916 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:00pm |
re: #543 haakondahl
Did you know that there are group plans in which individuals in that plan even for a company with less than 10 people like ours can choose from about 25 different plans, even from different insurance companies? I didn't. I was floored. And guess what, if you are part of a group plan, even if you choose something totally different for yourself (basically an individual plan) there are no pre-existing condition requirements.
Golly, imagine that. No, I'd rather go to some clinic with marginal docs and be at the mercy of our benevolent Congress.
Then again, I'm paying for my own care. Looks like about 50% of us want me to pay for theirs too.
| 917 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:09pm |
re: #869 Coracle
It was all lies according to you. There. I just saved you an hour.
* * * *
I loved the President's opening statement that the economy has been saved from the brink!
One out of every ten Americans is unemployed but very relieved to hear this.
| 918 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:12pm |
re: #897 Charles
I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
They are at a crossroads. Will they support tort reform for the votes or not support it for the money? That is large dilemma for a politician.
| 919 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:15pm |
re: #896 Chekote
Joe Wilson apologized.
That's nice.
/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?
| 920 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:18pm |
re: #909 Coracle
Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers?
It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
| 921 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:34pm |
re: #913 cronus
Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.
He must have missed Harry Reid's statement yesterday with Nancy in front of the White House after meeting with obama...
| 922 |
unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:37pm |
re: #876 Mich-again
The GOP supports tort reform. That should be a part of healthcare reform. When the Dems took that right off the table it was obvious they weren't terribly interested in working with Republicans, or true reform.
| 923 |
ConservativeAtheist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:37pm |
re: #900 LudwigVanQuixote
...Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.
Mmmm. Pink elephants. Nice beer.
| 925 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:01pm |
re: #909 Coracle
Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers? That's new to me! That would be pretty funny if they were forced to back off tort reform to stay in opposition to health care. That would be a masterful move.
And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.
| 926 |
Charpete67 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:11pm |
| 927 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:18pm |
re: #828 haakondahl
The guy is an instant right wing hero for a very classless and rude outburst during a presidential speech. He'll be all over Fox and invited so speak at Tea Parties now. This is what gets conservatives excited these days. I find it embarrassing.
| 928 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:19pm |
re: #919 Killian Bundy
That's nice.
/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?
hahahaha
| 929 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:19pm |
| 930 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:21pm |
re: #917 alegrias
* * * *
I loved the President's opening statement that the economy has been saved from the brink!One out of every ten Americans is unemployed but very relieved to hear this.
Because he clearly followed that up by saying everything is just dandy for everyone now.
Please.
| 931 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:33pm |
charles i am going to disagree with you on tort reform and the gop the type of lawyer this is directed at are almost all in the democrat hip pocket so it is in the gop interest to support it and support it all the way to passage as well as the docs are supporting this as well and many of them support it
| 932 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:39pm |
re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote
And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.
Total bull. The Rs have supported and implemented this in a number of states.
| 933 |
sngnsgt Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:57pm |
re: #884 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't debate that. That is why I very much liked the proposal to have doctors and health care providers find ways to eliminate waste in gov't programs.
That sounds good to me too. The inefficiencies that go with it are a pain in the neck, it took me 7 months to get part D, (drug coverage) in the mean time, I've spent almost $5000.00 on drugs. Even with a letter from Social Security saying I should have had it from the start, I'm not going to get reimbursed for the funds I've already spent. (And that's with buying my drugs from Canada.)
| 934 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:59pm |
re: #914 jcm
Tried Chimay Red, very good I'lll look for the other two.
The white and the blue have their charms.
If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.
| 935 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:00pm |
re: #913 cronus
Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.
Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?
| 936 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:13pm |
re: #910 lostlakehiker
(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.
One question I've wondered about on this issue...
in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?
| 937 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:28pm |
re: #935 NJDhockeyfan
Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?
Yes. Makes one wonder why this speech was necessary tonight since it's in the bag...
| 938 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:45pm |
re: #920 Charles
It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
I heartily agree with that. But it's been such a torch for so long. I was kind of hoping it was also a lever toward actual bipartisanism. If they're going to back away just to be contrarian, then there's not much hope of that.
| 939 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:47pm |
re: #718 right_wing2
Cost savings for screenings depends on how often the condition exists.
If the cost of 1,000 cancer screenings is $100 each (pulling numbers out of my backside here!) catches 200 cancers that cost $10,000 each, then we're ahead of the game. If it catches just 5 cases of cancer at that same $10,000,
then there's no cost savings.Please note, I'm not saying that screening shouldn't be done- ANY life saved is valuable. I'm simply looking at cost savingshere.
Sorry I missed your comment. This board really moves!
I'm not sure people understand the totality of what cancer costs. It's astronomical. In your example, if the screening costs $100 or even $200, cancer treatments is in the 10s of 1000s. Sometimes 100s of thousands. Certainly breast and colon cancer, with multiple radiation and chemo treatments. I can't see the cost of screening getting anywhere near the cost of treating these diseases.
I have to pay for mammographies because I need extra testing. It runs me about $300-400 a year.
Not only that, organizations like Susan G. Komen (I know, I did fundraising for them for 6 years) give money towards the screenings. Just our one organization, and they're worldwide with others like them, raised approx $25,000 yearly.
| 940 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:03pm |
re: #923 ConservativeAtheist
Mmmm. Pink elephants. Nice beer.
Yeah kicks butt.
Right now though in my fridge I have some Golden Monkey. Good stuff. Totally different - hints of allspice and ginger. Very refreshing.
| 941 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:09pm |
re: #919 Killian Bundy
That's nice.
/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?
He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.
| 942 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:16pm |
re: #936 mikey_dallas
One question I've wondered about on this issue...
in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?
You're asking if personal responsibly is important ?
| 943 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:19pm |
re: #920 Charles
It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
Charles, OT but Rep. Jean Schmidt issues a press release today:
Statement of Congresswoman Jean Schmidt on the issue of President Obama's Citizenship
For Immediate Release
September 9, 2009
Washington, D.C. - “The President is indeed a Citizen of this country and constitutionally qualified to be President of the United States. I may not agree with his politics but there is no doubt he is the President and has my full respect. The video clip being circulated by some is part of a longer conversation with a woman who was very upset about a number of things. I, in no way, agree with her belief that President Obama is not a citizen of the United States. I did agree with her view that the constitution should be strictly interpreted. I was trying to be kind to a woman who was trying desperately and passionately to express her views. She has the right to her beliefs, no matter how much I disagree with them.”
| 944 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:21pm |
re: #886 MacDuff
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
* * * *
Yes, ZERO-based budgeting of federal programs was Pres. Jimmy Carter's innovation.
Hahaha. That & the misery index in America, which really took off during his 4 years.
| 945 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:23pm |
re: #935 NJDhockeyfan
Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?
That's what I recall as well. I suspect the White House mediated some sort of deal that gives them confidence to go ahead.
| 946 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:27pm |
re: #897 Charles
I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
Very powerful lobbyists. I am reminded way back when Hillarycare had everyone in the industry freaked out. Our CEO in a speech said to us "Let me worry about Hillary - you folks just sell more insurance."
| 948 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:40pm |
re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote
The white and the blue have their charms.
If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.
My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.
| 949 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:52pm |
re: #920 Charles
It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
I'd like to read the articles you mentioned earlier. I do know OB/GYNs are hard hit by insurance costs, and this hurts women.
| 950 |
cronus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:55pm |
re: #935 NJDhockeyfan
Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?
She may believe she has them in the House (though what Drudge is reporting may contradict that) but they aren't even close to having the votes in the Senate.
| 951 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:56pm |
re: #932 JohnH
Total bull. The Rs have supported and implemented this in a number of states.
Then I hope to be wrong, because tort reform is a good idea, and honestly there is a lot of vested money against it.
| 952 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:59pm |
re: #886 MacDuff
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
Don't be ridiculous. I'm not talking about your 3 ton paperweight taking up room on the lawn.
| 953 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:45pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
Was that a typo Ludwig, or do you not realise that the Va is already a form of government health care?
| 954 |
JohnH Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:52pm |
re: #951 LudwigVanQuixote
Then I hope to be wrong, because tort reform is a good idea, and honestly there is a lot of vested money against it.
What passed here in Ohio was broader than just med-mal reform.
| 955 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:54pm |
re: #913 cronus
Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.
The "public option" is political suicide for the Democrats. They know it. so they are going to back away slowly, and do what they can to change the rhetoric surrounding the idea. The D's want to get as close as possible to that objective without calling it a "Public option".
Obama ditched the entire "public option" from his bag o-rhetoric.
| 956 |
sattv4u2 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:04pm |
re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote
And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.
Incorrect
Tort reform is part of HR 3400
Tort reform has been passed and implemented (by a Repulcan gov and senate) in Texas and one other state that escapes me at the moment
| 957 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:05pm |
re: #948 jcm
My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.
I strongly recommend it.
| 958 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:07pm |
recently i read that 78% of political contrabutions from lawyers went to democrats and it would be a guess that if you took corp. and finance law out of it the % would be even higher.
| 959 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:10pm |
| 960 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:15pm |
re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote
Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.
There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.
Contrary to popular belief, he has too much class.
| 961 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:37pm |
re: #935 NJDhockeyfan
Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?
/she's the Speaker of the House, not the Senate
| 962 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:48pm |
re: #885 lawhawk
Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.
* * *
GOP wasn't even allowed in the rooms where Kennedy's health care proposal planners--including AMA & AARP & PHARMA representatives-- were meeting for the last year.
| 963 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:49pm |
re: #910 lostlakehiker
(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.
All ready in place by some ins. cos.
| 964 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:53pm |
re: #936 mikey_dallas
One question I've wondered about on this issue...
in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?
Ahh --- now we get to a serious problem.
Private businesses can, potentially make such distinctions -- provide coverage for one sub-group but not another.
In the case of the government it would be more difficult. Look at it this way: how many smokers are there? How many overweight folks? Tell them, as an elected official, that you voted to deny them coverage and then see how things go at the poll next time around.
In all the discussions of "costs" and "savings" the assumption is that the decision-making process will be free from politics. It won't, and consequently the "savings" that will come from "reform" will most likely go 'poof.'
| 965 |
Erik The Red Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:57pm |
Watching Federer kick Soderling's ass. 6-0, 6-3 into third set.
| 966 |
brookly red Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:59pm |
re: #935 Negativing
Didn't Nancy Polis say they had the votes yesterday?
Well sometimes Nancy exaggerates...
| 967 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:03pm |
re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote
The white and the blue have their charms.
If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.
Many micro/craft beers have yeast residue in them...it's a result of "bottle conditioning"...letting the beer carbonate naturally in the bottle.
| 968 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:04pm |
re: #941 avanti
He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.
I doubt it. Wilson will be look upon as a moron but it wont change their minds on their position on health care.
| 969 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:23pm |
re: #953 Bagua
Was that a typo Ludwig, or do you not realise that the Va is already a form of government health care?
No, not at all. The stories in question are about the sorts of things that make doctors pull their hair out. Obama wants a commission of doctors to look into reforming the waste in the system. This is a good thing.
| 971 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:57pm |
re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote
since beer isn't a political issue and on chemay ale we agree.
chemay ale or a aged oak barrel barley wine
| 972 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:05pm |
re: #835 marjoriemoon
Ain't nuthin free of course, but the consumer gets the savings which is a good thing.
Mr. Moon was just explaining your healthcare to me. You don't have investors. Makes sense.
Why would people object to a government plan run the same way? Especially if it already exists?
My objection is to the "government run" part.
| 973 |
Salamantis Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:06pm |
Umm...isn't former Democratic Presidential candidate and philanderer John Edwards the poster boy for judgment-rich medical malpractice suit trial lawyers? Not that his own judgment is worth jack squat...
That guy will screw, and screw over, anyone or anything that moves, for love or money.
| 974 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:12pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
Not meant to be nasty at all. Millions of Americans have nothing.
And if the President has his way, soon we will all become a little more like them.
| 975 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:24pm |
re: #942 DrNaughty
re: #936 mikey_dallasOne question I've wondered about on this issue...
in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?
You're asking if personal responsibly is important ?
I'm asking those who believe we should limit health treatments for ailments that come from personal choices, like smoking and overeating (I am NOT one of those) - are you going to only pick on personal responsibility issues that are easy targets, like smoking and obesity, or if they're really serious and will apply it also to the gay community on AIDS.
| 977 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:48pm |
re: #910 lostlakehiker
1 through 6 are being done, by the insurance companies, the true regulators of the free market. We don't have a system of health insurance as structured now. We have more of a pre-paid medical care system.
as for # 7, it is nobody else's business if one chooses to pour all their resources into a new born or elderly relative,least of all the governments. As for the insurer,their obligation is only contractual.
| 978 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:51pm |
re: #973 Salamantis
Umm...isn't former Democratic Presidential candidate and philanderer John Edwards the poster boy for judgment-rich medical malpractice suit trial lawyers? Not that his own judgment is worth jack squat...
That guy will screw, and screw over, anyone or anything that moves, for love or money.
Well he definitley did that to Rial Hunter...
| 979 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:03pm |
re: #941 avanti
He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.
/help him by stomping all over his message, who's dominating the news cycle at the moment?
| 980 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:05pm |
re: #968 NJDhockeyfan
I doubt it. Wilson will be look upon as a moron but it wont change their minds on their position on health care.
The left will use this, from the link:
"Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) said he has never witnessed such a scene in 35 years of watching presidential addresses.
"I've never seen anything like it," Leahy said. "I talked to a number of my Republican friends on the way out who were mortified and angry that someone would do that.
"I've been in situations with presidents with whom I absolutely disagreed with," said Leahy, who had a memorable exchange in 2004 on the Senate floor with Vice President Dick Cheney. After criticizing the vice president about his ties to Halliburton, Cheney used an obsenity with Leahy.
Still, Leahy said he hadn't seen anything like a lawmaker calling the president a liar during an address to Congress.
"But nobody — nobody — ever has done anything like that," he said. ".He is the head of government for our country."
| 981 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:17pm |
re: #967 BignJames
Many micro/craft beers have yeast residue in them...it's a result of "bottle conditioning"...letting the beer carbonate naturally in the bottle.
Yep and I like it!
| 982 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:21pm |
Joe Wilson (R-SC) has issued an apology for heckling President Obama, about an hour after the speech -- a clear sign the GOP realizes just how damaging his performance was.
His statement:
“This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”
Douchebag.
| 983 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:35pm |
re: #971 yochanan
since beer isn't a political issue and on chemay ale we agree.
chemay ale or a aged oak barrel barley wine
ummm I'll take both?
| 984 |
Mich-again Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:36pm |
re: #897 Charles
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
The GOP is deep in the pockets of the Trial Lawyers? Then the Dems are in a lot deeper. Here is one trial lawyers association with 56,000 members and the stats show in 2008 they split their millions 95% to Dems and 5% to Republicans. I wouldn't paint the two sides with the same brush when it comes to being subservient to trial lawyers. American Association for Justice:
Formerly the Association of Trial Lawyers of America (ATLA), this group of plaintiffs' attorneys and others in the legal profession now goes by the name of the American Association for Justice (AAJ) and boasts 56,000 members worldwide. A lobbying heavyweight, the association has been battling any attempt at tort reform, including recent proposals to cap awards in medical malpractice lawsuits. AAJ also lobbies Congress on any legislation that may inhibit the ability of consumers to bring lawsuits, particularly against health care providers, asbestos companies or insurance companies processing claims related to terrorism. The association favors Democrats, who oppose most attempts to initiate tort reform.
| 985 |
im_gumby_damnit Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:45pm |
re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote
In Georgia, once the Republicans took over the legislature and the governor's office in 2002, they almost immediately implemented medical malpractice tort reform. Specifically, they put caps on the amount that could be recovered for "noneconomic" damages in such cases. They also made it more difficult to sue emergency room medical personnel. The trial lawyers in the state are still howling over that one. Trust me, none of them are writing checks to the GOP.
It remains to be seen, however, whether the "reforms" will have any significant impact on health care or insurance costs.
| 986 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:47pm |
re: #943 Gus 802
Charles, OT but Rep. Jean Schmidt issues a press release today:
Statement of Congresswoman Jean Schmidt on the issue of President Obama's Citizenship
Uh oh. Politician caught on tape. Must spin. Spin spin spin.
What a joke.
| 987 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:02pm |
re: #969 LudwigVanQuixote
No, not at all. The stories in question are about the sorts of things that make doctors pull their hair out. Obama wants a commission of doctors to look into reforming the waste in the system. This is a good thing.
Nonsense, you were ranting on about the evils of a profits based health care industry compared with the paradise of government run health care, you then used an example of fraud and waste in a government run health care system. That is irrational.
| 988 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:03pm |
re: #948 jcm
My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.
You were born to brew.
| 989 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:10pm |
re: #875 marjoriemoon
Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?
Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?
I have an old Jeep C-J under wraps waiting on a new diesel engine. It's not registered and won't be until it's road worthy. As long as it doesn't leave my property, I'm not required to register it.
| 990 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:11pm |
re: #795 mikey_dallas
This leads to the whole issue of Quality Adjusted Remaining Years (QARY), and if you need $20K in medical treatment and that will buy you 3 more years of quality life, and a year of quality life is determined by one of these panels to be worth $5K, then you only get $15K of benefit from $20 K of medical treatment. Treatment DENIED. You don't get 3 more years of "quality life", you get nothing but what amounts to a death sentence by denial of treatment that would extend quality life for you.
The QDRY analysis in Ezekiel Emmanuel's article was about how to allocate transplant organs, or limited drugs in a fast-moving epidemic, when it's physically impossible to treat everyone. It wasn't about costs.
| 991 |
researchok Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:15pm |
There is no bill in either the House or Senate- and what the bill will look like is anyone's guess, as there are at least 5 different versions out there.
When all is said and done, Obama speech was all smoke and mirrors.
| 992 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:23pm |
re: #886 MacDuff
Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.
I'm sorry about my above comment! LOL I totally clicked the wrong post. I beg your forgiveness!
| 993 |
Gus Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:04pm |
re: #986 Charles
Uh oh. Politician caught on tape. Must spin. Spin spin spin.
What a joke.
Roger. Hey, remember that video "Birthers on the Hill?" Guess who was in that? Charles Boustany. He gave the rebuttal tonight. H said something about "looking into it" more or less.
| 994 |
Adrenalyn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:06pm |
re: #872 Bobibutu
Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.
and how many times has the left interrupted a Republican's speech, up to and including Bush
the lack of civility won't get any better until the sides see how foolish it makes them BOTH look
| 995 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:06pm |
| 996 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:26pm |
re: #984 Mich-again
OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.
| 997 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:27pm |
| 998 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:45pm |
re: #937 DrNaughty
Yes. Makes one wonder why this speech was necessary tonight since it's in the bag...
* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,
maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.
| 999 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:08pm |
re: #990 sagehen
The QDRY analysis in Ezekiel Emmanuel's article was about how to allocate transplant organs, or limited drugs in a fast-moving epidemic, when it's physically impossible to treat everyone. It wasn't about costs.
I wasn't referring to Emmanuel's article. QARY is what the British health services and others in Europe use to deny expensive treatment to primarily elderly.
| 1000 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:12pm |
re: #993 Gus 802
Roger. Hey, remember that video "Birthers on the Hill?" Guess who was in that? Charles Boustany. He gave the rebuttal tonight. H said something about "looking into it" more or less.
Oh yeah. Imagine my surprise.
| 1001 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:22pm |
re: #998 alegrias
* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.
That or he missed his face time on TV after being on vacation for a week.
| 1002 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:44pm |
re: #998 alegrias
* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.
You've got a nice little echo chamber set up there.
| 1003 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:55pm |
re: #989 Wendya
I have an old Jeep C-J under wraps waiting on a new diesel engine. It's not registered and won't be until it's road worthy. As long as it doesn't leave my property, I'm not required to register it.
I thought it was clear enough. I was talking about autos you drive.
And in FL, you have to register "abandoned" vechicles. Those that don't run. In CA is the same, but cheaper. I also live in a high accident-prone state.
| 1004 |
WinterCat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:00pm |
I don't want the government to manage my health care. Period. I don't trust them to do anything but screw it up, ie., make it more complex, more expensive, and more inefficient than the private health insurance I now have.
It may be that Obama has the best of intentions here. But you know what they say about the road to hell...
| 1005 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:04pm |
the biggest political lie i ever heard was the zero saying the gov't can do it cheaper' hell even liberals i know laughed when they heard it.
| 1006 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:20pm |
re: #892 Coracle
Then you don't have to believe it. I will believe it if and when I see it and it makes sense.
And I'll believe that pigs can fly when I see them perched on telephone wires. Then porcine aviation will make sense.
The most dependable predictor of the future is careful analysis of the past and the government's track record lends tremendous credence to that axiom. Believe flowery platitudes if you will, I'll remain firmly planted in reality.
| 1008 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:51pm |
re: #1004 WinterCat
I don't want the government to manage my health care. Period. I don't trust them to do anything but screw it up, ie., make it more complex, more expensive, and more inefficient than the private health insurance I now have.
It may be that Obama has the best of intentions here. But you know what they say about the road to hell...
So don't opt in. The Pres. himself expects only 5% of Americans would. Why not be like the other 19 out of 20?
| 1009 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:00pm |
| 1010 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:16pm |
re: #979 Killian Bundy
/help him by stomping all over his message, who's dominating the news cycle at the moment?
Nope, generate some backlash against the insanity going on about health care. Many conservatives would be embarrassed by the disrespect of the POTUS at a join session of Congress, even if they disagree with him.
Played right, this could be the "At long last have you no shame moment" for the Dems.
| 1011 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:32pm |
re: #1005 yochanan
the biggest political lie i ever heard was the zero saying the gov't can do it cheaper' hell even liberals i know laughed when they heard it.
I agree, except that you should not refer to a President of the United States in such a manner, respect the dignity of the office even if you disagree with his policies.
| 1012 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:48pm |
re: #987 Bagua
Nonsense, you were ranting on about the evils of a profits based health care industry compared with the paradise of government run health care, you then used an example of fraud and waste in a government run health care system. That is irrational.
Bagua, there is more to the issue than just picking a roster of talking points from one side or the other. It is not an either or proposition. Nowhere did I say that all govt programs were run well. However, any chance to run them well requires having people who actually know what they are talking about ie. doctors instead of political hacks making the calls on how to do it.
This is exactly what Obama proposed and it is a good idea.
So, since you have taken the caricature of the uber right, how come you don't like the idea of cutting wasteful spending? Is it because Obama suggested it, that doing things sensibly and efficiently as dictated by the experts what now makes it something you must snipe at?
Sorry again, no bagel :)
| 1013 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:49pm |
re: #1006 MacDuff
And I'll believe that pigs can fly when I see them perched on telephone wires. Then porcine aviation will make sense.
The most dependable predictor of the future is careful analysis of the past and the government's track record lends tremendous credence to that axiom. Believe flowery platitudes if you will, I'll remain firmly planted in reality.
I will believe the numbers if they make sense. You can bloviate all you want.
| 1014 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:56pm |
re: #927 Killgore Trout
I hear you. With that said, the prevailing thought was that the yelling and shouting at the townhalls over the summer were going to backfire against the Republicans. Just the opposite happened.
Ugly? Yeah. But so is the whole enchilada politically speaking nowadays. Maybe now those who try to hide the illegal immigrant issues key to so many conservatives (and union members too for that matter) will not be able to so easily hide them anymore. The SAVE program which is an application process for HUD housing and more that checks the eligibility of people (makes sure they're legal) was shot down by Democrats as part of healthcare reform. Why? Well, we know why. And we know the President was lying and that in fact illegal aliens would be one of the biggest recipients of a government scheme. It doesn't pass the giggle test to say otherwise.
Calling out the President as the lying liar he is about that part of his speech may not be pretty, but it may just get the issue front and center which thus far at least at a Congressional level has been completely absent. Nice isn't working. By the book has failed. Politeness took a backseat long ago. Not saying it's right, but that's how it is.
| 1015 |
Danny Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:01pm |
re: #996 Charles
OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.
They do. Just not as much as the DNC.
| 1016 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:18pm |
re: #1010 avanti
There actually are some details to be ironed out.
| 1017 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:30pm |
re: #1007 taxfreekiller
your "uh" guy
"uh'd" the kook democrat base tonight
very eloquent uh?
Do you work hard at not making sense? You're very good at it.
| 1018 |
What, me worry? Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:33pm |
re: #1004 WinterCat
I don't want the government to manage my health care. Period. I don't trust them to do anything but screw it up, ie., make it more complex, more expensive, and more inefficient than the private health insurance I now have.
It may be that Obama has the best of intentions here. But you know what they say about the road to hell...
Oh moses smell the roses.
HE AIN'T TAKIN YER GUNS, YER BIBLE OR YER HEALTHCARE.
How many times does he have to say it?
Do you know what Medicare, Medicaid and VA benefits cover? Do you realize we already have government healthcare?
I'm out ya'll. Pooped. Have a good eve.
| 1019 |
Salamantis Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:36pm |
It was the trial lawyers who paid for the Harry and Louise ads that torpedoed HillaryCare. The LAST thing they want is to have to sue the federal government for malpractice, rather than an insurance company covered private citizen physician.
| 1020 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:48pm |
re: #1003 marjoriemoon
I thought it was clear enough. I was talking about autos you drive.
And in FL, you have to register "abandoned" vechicles. Those that don't run. In CA is the same, but cheaper. I also live in a high accident-prone state.
If I want to drive my jeep around on my property, it still doesn't not require registration.
| 1022 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:03pm |
re: #1006 MacDuff
the porcine aviator will be 'pigs in space' not just flying but ms. piggy in space.
| 1023 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:12pm |
re: #1011 Bagua
I agree, except that you should not refer to a President of the United States in such a manner, respect the dignity of the office even if you disagree with his policies.
You're talking to a wall there, Bagua.
| 1024 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:28pm |
re: #982 Killgore Trout
Douchebag.
Of course, if this were a Democrat apologizing right after doing something dumb, you would be hectoring us about taking the man at his word, momentary lapses of judgment, etc...
Or am I mistaken?
| 1025 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:45pm |
re: #1009 haakondahl
You missed a spot.
lol... bite me :) I argue with him now and again. This time I think he is right.
| 1026 |
jcm Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:48pm |
re: #988 BignJames
You were born to brew.
What do you think of Stone's stuff? AB, Ruination IPA etc...
| 1027 |
Bob Dillon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:48pm |
re: #994 Adrenalyn
and how many times has the left interrupted a Republican's speech, up to and including Bush
the lack of civility won't get any better until the sides see how foolish it makes them BOTH look
True and this kind of incident has been going on as long as speeches have been given - always has - always will.
| 1028 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:49pm |
ROLL CALL
Trial Lawyers in Fight Over Health Care Tort Reform
The trial lawyers’ lobby, worried that tort reform could become a bargaining chip in the health care debate, is lashing out this week against efforts to include medical malpractice limits in health care reform bills.Linda Lipsen, the top lobbyist for the American Association for Justice, said the group grew concerned over the August recess as the rhetoric heated up and Members flirted with possible bipartisan compromises that could include tort reforms.
Republican Members still at the negotiating table, including Sens. Chuck Grassley (Iowa) and Mike Enzi (Wyo.), have said tort reform should be part of the health care overhaul. In addition, former Democratic Sen. Bill Bradley (N.J.), a one-time presidential candidate, has also endorsed tort reform as a way of getting more GOP support for universal health care coverage.
Perhaps of even more concern for the trial bar, some health care lobbyists say they wouldn’t be surprised if President Barack Obama brings up the issue during his address to Congress on Wednesday. In a speech to the American Medical Association in June, Obama put the AAJ on defense when he referred to doctors ordering expensive tests as part of “defensive medicine” for fear of lawsuits.
“As they’re discussing the health care bill, we do not think that patients’ rights should be eliminated,” Lipsen said.
The AAJ is planning a conference call with reporters Wednesday. Late last week, the group released talking points to reporters to debunk the idea that medical malpractice reforms would help lower health care costs.
“Several of the Republicans involved in the health care debate have put this on the table, like this is going to reduce health care costs,” Lipsen said. “It’s very clear to me, and to anyone that’s really looked at this, that this will have nothing to do with costs.”
But tort reform advocates and key medical industry stakeholders, such as doctors and insurers, don’t agree.
“Medical liability reform has to be a part of the plan to make health care affordable and make the system sustainable,” said Mike Tuffin, executive vice president of America’s Health Insurance Plans, a group whose members found themselves under attack from Democrats during the recess. “The current system has created an epidemic of defensive medicine. It is raising the costs for patients and putting doctors and nurses out of practice in some cases.”
Darren McKinney of the American Tort Reform Association said it’s a matter of simple “common sense” that medical malpractice lawsuits add to the cost of the nation’s health care bills. He said that, until recently, the trial bar, which has donated generously to the Democratic Party, had maintained a low profile in the health care debate.
“They have now apparently changed that strategy,” McKinney said. “Enough worry has been raised amongst the trial lawyers and the Democrats they reward so handsomely with campaign donations. ... You’ve got Democrats talking about [tort reform], and you’ve got doctors rising up about it and Joe and Josephine American asking common-sense questions at town halls.” ...
| 1029 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:54pm |
re: #1014 borgcube
I hear you. With that said, the prevailing thought was that the yelling and shouting at the townhalls over the summer were going to backfire against the Republicans. Just the opposite happened.
Ugly? Yeah. But so is the whole enchilada politically speaking nowadays. Maybe now those who try to hide the illegal immigrant issues key to so many conservatives (and union members too for that matter) will not be able to so easily hide them anymore. The SAVE program which is an application process for HUD housing and more that checks the eligibility of people (makes sure they're legal) was shot down by Democrats as part of healthcare reform. Why? Well, we know why. And we know the President was lying and that in fact illegal aliens would be one of the biggest recipients of a government scheme. It doesn't pass the giggle test to say otherwise.
Calling out the President as the lying liar he is about that part of his speech may not be pretty, but it may just get the issue front and center which thus far at least at a Congressional level has been completely absent. Nice isn't working. By the book has failed. Politeness took a backseat long ago. Not saying it's right, but that's how it is.
Well said. If the media was doing its job and fact checking the President and Speaker, others wouldn't have to go to such desperate measures.
| 1030 |
Sharmuta Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:50:59pm |
re: #1016 jaunte
There actually are some details to be ironed out.
We're going to need an Iron Czar.
| 1031 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:09pm |
re: #1012 LudwigVanQuixote
Bagua, there is more to the issue than just picking a roster of talking points from one side or the other. It is not an either or proposition. Nowhere did I say that all govt programs were run well. However, any chance to run them well requires having people who actually know what they are talking about ie. doctors instead of political hacks making the calls on how to do it.
This is exactly what Obama proposed and it is a good idea.
So, since you have taken the caricature of the uber right, how come you don't like the idea of cutting wasteful spending? Is it because Obama suggested it, that doing things sensibly and efficiently as dictated by the experts what now makes it something you must snipe at?
Sorry again, no bagel :)
You may spin until you are blue my friend, I realise you are not sufficiently self aware to understand how your example was in a fact an argument against government meddling with health care.
| 1032 |
ConservativeAtheist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:16pm |
re: #920 Charles
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
How would tort reform not cut costs? Meritless lawsuits increase costs in several ways:
1. High costs for medical malpractice insurance.
2. Increased costs due to the practice of defensive medicine.
3. Increased costs due to the time involved in defending against such lawsuits.
4. Increased costs due to decreased supply of doctors willing to perform certain procedures. For example, our family doctor, who delivered my children, will no longer deliver babies because of the outrageous cost of malpractice insurance.
Tort reform seems like one of the things which could truly cut costs without affecting quality of health care.
| 1033 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:17pm |
re: #996 Charles
OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.
I thought he was just saying that both sides profit from trial lawyers.
| 1034 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:29pm |
re: #944 alegrias
* * * *
Yes, ZERO-based budgeting of federal programs was Pres. Jimmy Carter's innovation.Hahaha. That & the misery index in America, which really took off during his 4 years.
Ah yes, I forgot the miracle of "government math"!
| 1036 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:44pm |
| 1037 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:51:58pm |
re: #1011 Bagua
just blow back from 8 years of listen to donks do it to President Bush, the next POTU$ who ever it is will get the respect right now i don't feel like it.
| 1038 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:52:14pm |
re: #1024 haakondahl
Of course, if this were a Democrat apologizing right after doing something dumb, you would be hectoring us about taking the man at his word, momentary lapses of judgment, etc...
Or am I mistaken?
Right people are responsible for actions they might have taken if something that didn't happen happened. Got it.
| 1039 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:52:39pm |
re: #1032 ConservativeAtheist
How would tort reform not cut costs? Meritless lawsuits increase costs in several ways:
1. High costs for medical malpractice insurance.
2. Increased costs due to the practice of defensive medicine.
3. Increased costs due to the time involved in defending against such lawsuits.
4. Increased costs due to decreased supply of doctors willing to perform certain procedures. For example, our family doctor, who delivered my children, will no longer deliver babies because of the outrageous cost of malpractice insurance.Tort reform seems like one of the things which could truly cut costs without affecting quality of health care.
This issue is government control and increasing people's dependency on government.
Any "reform" that does not provide the above is not part of the Democratic plan.
| 1040 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:08pm |
re: #1023 Coracle
You're talking to a wall there, Bagua.
I realise that may be the case, but as I am taking the Government Health Care Denier position I do what my view on respect of office to be clear.
| 1041 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:19pm |
re: #982 Killgore Trout
Douchebag.
I'm not sure he's a db, Killgore. He got carried way by his emotions. That was foolish and he owed Obama an apology, but it doesn't make him a bad person. I makes him a man who made a stupid mistake.
| 1042 |
BignJames Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:24pm |
re: #1026 jcm
What do you think of Stone's stuff? AB, Ruination IPA etc...
Love it...can be hard to find on EC though.
| 1043 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:34pm |
re: #1002 Coracle
You've got a nice little echo chamber set up there.
* * * *
Gore-acle! Love you nic.
| 1044 |
spirochete Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:45pm |
re: #1032 ConservativeAtheist
Well said. I am a physician and already have my exit strategy mapped out. I refuse to be a target for self-serving trial lawyers for the remainder of my productive life.
| 1045 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:46pm |
re: #1010 avanti
Nope, generate some backlash against the insanity going on about health care. Many conservatives would be embarrassed by the disrespect of the POTUS at a join session of Congress, even if they disagree with him.
Played right, this could be the "At long last have you no shame moment" for the Dems.
You think this gets you a groundswell for ObamaCare?
/dream on, the Van Jones story didn't even last 48 hours
| 1046 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:47pm |
re: #1028 J.D.
when a land shark talks about rights he is really talking about land shark bank accounts.
| 1047 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:48pm |
re: #964 Lucius Septimius
Ahh --- now we get to a serious problem.
Private businesses can, potentially make such distinctions -- provide coverage for one sub-group but not another.
In the case of the government it would be more difficult. Look at it this way: how many smokers are there? How many overweight folks? Tell them, as an elected official, that you voted to deny them coverage and then see how things go at the poll next time around.
In all the discussions of "costs" and "savings" the assumption is that the decision-making process will be free from politics. It won't, and consequently the "savings" that will come from "reform" will most likely go 'poof.'
Interesting point. And since Fat and Stupid are increasingly popular life-style choices these days, I guess that whole categories of risky behavior will no longer be identified as such.
And another thing. There exists a whole OTHER category of risky life-styles which has so far gotten zero mention.
Long story short, how long until the government buys your weed for you?
| 1048 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:48pm |
re: #1014 borgcube
Nice isn't working. By the book has failed. Politeness took a backseat long ago. Not saying it's right, but that's how it is.
...and that's why you'll be doing it without my support. I listen to the lies all the time from conservatives. I see all the conspiracy theories and fake outrage. I'm just numb to it at this point. Throwing a temper tantrum while the president is speaking is a national embarrassment.
| 1049 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:51pm |
re: #1035 taxfreekiller
do the gaze on me if your so smart
Why would I want to gaze on you? Are you pretty?
| 1050 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:53:56pm |
re: #1031 Bagua
You may spin until you are blue my friend, I realise you are not sufficiently self aware to understand how your example was in a fact an argument against government meddling with health care.
My friend, the idea of cleaning it up is a good thing. As to shoddy care that gets provided bc of insurance shenanigans - they are no better. The fact is that this is a comprehensive and sensible approach to implementing solutions to the problems both public and private. That is a good thing.
Look I like you a lot, but this really seems like just word games to me.
| 1051 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:54:03pm |
Obama: I used to say 47 million uninsured. Now, it’s 30 million.
If you subtract those who choose to not have it and those in-between jobs and the young -- it's probably closer to 12-14 million.
| 1052 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:54:30pm |
re: #1037 yochanan
just blow back from 8 years of listen to donks do it to President Bush, the next POTU$ who ever it is will get the respect right now i don't feel like it.
If that is your position then the "donks" are just alright with you and you are happy to join them. Is that your position?
| 1053 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:54:53pm |
re: #1037 yochanan
just blow back from 8 years of listen to donks do it to President Bush, the next POTU$ who ever it is will get the respect right now i don't feel like it.
NO ONE IN CONGRESS acted that way.
Get serious.
As to Bush, please, he was not Moshiach.
| 1054 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:54:56pm |
re: #1037 yochanan
just blow back from 8 years of listen to donks do it to President Bush, the next POTU$ who ever it is will get the respect right now i don't feel like it.
Presidential t'shuva takes one term or two?
| 1055 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:55:19pm |
re: #1051 FrogMarch
Obama: I used to say 47 million uninsured. Now, it’s 30 million.
If you subtract those who choose to not have it and those in-between jobs and the young -- it's probably closer to 12-14 million.
The number is meaningless The prize is the 300 million or so that the government will be able to make wards of the state...
| 1057 |
Adrenalyn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:55:30pm |
think Joe Wilson is the first or the worst ?
think again
TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05;]
JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]
| 1058 |
Mich-again Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:55:34pm |
re: #920 Charles
And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.
The savings from tort reform are not just from lower malpractice insurance fees but can come from the way doctors and hospitals treat patients. I think sometimes testing is done that goes beyond what is needed to diagnose a medical problem and instead is just done to cover all bases in case a lawsuit is filed at a later date. That doesn't show up in the liability insurance costs but we still pay for it.
| 1059 |
NukeAtomrod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:56:02pm |
Rep. Joe Wilson was very rude indeed, but his statement appeared to be accurate. I am seriously torn about whether or not it is a bad thing to show a lack of class by telling the truth to the President's face in front of Congress on national TV. I mean, he absolutely showed disrespect by interrupting the President, but when would he have had a grander platform or better opportunity to call bullshit on an obvious lie. Maybe, just maybe, we need more disrespect of this nature from our elected officials.
| 1060 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:56:02pm |
| 1062 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:56:49pm |
re: #1057 Adrenalyn
think Joe Wilson is the first or the worst ?
think again
TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05;]
But we all knew that Bush was a Nazi and deserved to be shouted down
(/sac off)
JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]
| 1063 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:56:56pm |
re: #994 Adrenalyn
and how many times has the left interrupted a Republican's speech, up to and including Bush
the lack of civility won't get any better until the sides see how foolish it makes them BOTH look
Can I get a link to anything close to yelling out "liar" to Bush while addressing congress ?
| 1064 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:56:58pm |
re: #1055 DrNaughty
The number is meaningless The prize is the 300 million or so that the government will be able to make wards of the state...
Well, that's true. But it's not meaningless -the number is used for emotional manipulation.
| 1065 |
mikey_dallas Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:57:07pm |
re: #1057 Adrenalyn
Ever seen the Israeli Knesset in action? There's some real insult throwing that goes on there. None of this "my distinguished friend from Tel Aviv" crap.
| 1067 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:57:09pm |
re: #1056 Jimmah
Pink Floyd - Another One Bites The Dust
[Video]
??? you must have had a brain fart... It happens to me too :)
| 1068 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:57:26pm |
re: #1057 Adrenalyn
think Joe Wilson is the first or the worst ?
think again
TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05;]JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]
At least no one threw a shoe
| 1069 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:57:36pm |
re: #1057 Adrenalyn
think Joe Wilson is the first or the worst ?
think again
TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05;]
JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]
Are those members of the Gov't... Try again please.
| 1070 |
unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:57:57pm |
re: #1017 Coracle
Do you work hard at not making sense? You're very good at it.
Funny. I understand most everything he says.
| 1071 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:58:04pm |
re: #1051 FrogMarch
Obama: I used to say 47 million uninsured. Now, it’s 30 million.
If you subtract those who choose to not have it and those in-between jobs and the young -- it's probably closer to 12-14 million.
The young and the in between jobs and those who choose not too pay for insurance never need health care? No kidding?
Guess who pays for it when they do?
| 1072 |
spirochete Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:58:22pm |
| 1073 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:58:41pm |
re: #1052 Bagua
frankly i am waiting to see how badly Israel is screwed i have lots of major disagreements with the zero on that. frankly i can't lie and say other wise.
| 1074 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:58:51pm |
re: #1055 DrNaughty
The number is meaningless The prize is the 300 million or so that the government will be able to make wards of the state...
Bull. In the speech he said likely 5% would avail themselves of a government plan. Closer to 15m.
| 1075 |
FrogMarch Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:59:26pm |
re: #1071 Naso Tang
The young and the in between jobs and those who choose not too pay for insurance never need health care? No kidding?
Guess who pays for it when they do?
I know- lets spend 900 billion to give health care to 14 million - or 30 million.
What a deal!
| 1076 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:59:41pm |
re: #1070 unrealizedviewpoint
Funny. I understand most everything he says.
You are a better man than I. But we already knew that.
| 1077 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:59:42pm |
re: #1013 Coracle
I will believe the numbers if they make sense. You can bloviate all you want.
Bloviate? Again, name one, JUST ONE major government program, even close to the magnitude of one being proposed, with a net cost of $0.
| 1078 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:59:52pm |
re: #1043 alegrias
* * * *
Gore-acle! Love you nic.
Because calling him Al Gore helps your argument how? You see when I see a post that is just stupid, like yours just was, I'll just call it out as stupid and then say why.
This was stupid, because it has nothing to do with Al Gore, and moreover lacks punch as an insult.
| 1079 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:59:55pm |
re: #1074 Coracle
Bull. In the speech he said likely 5% would avail themselves of a government plan. Closer to 15m.
As soon as employers realize that the 8% fine for not providing insurance is cheaper than providing private health insurance, that number will rise exponentially...
| 1080 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:00:04pm |
re: #1050 LudwigVanQuixote
My friend, the idea of cleaning it up is a good thing. As to shoddy care that gets provided bc of insurance shenanigans - they are no better. The fact is that this is a comprehensive and sensible approach to implementing solutions to the problems both public and private. That is a good thing.
Look I like you a lot, but this really seems like just word games to me.
I am asking you to allow yourself to be held to your words and defend your position, not word games at all. The devil is in the details and while this whole plan may have something here and there that sounds good, as a package it represents a revolutionary change in our healthcare system and economy.
It that example I am asking you if you understood you were giving an example of Governmental Health Care waste.
| 1081 |
Adrenalyn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:00:16pm |
re: #1068 n in wi
At least no one threw a shoe
excellent reply !
irreverence is the antidote to hostility
| 1082 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:00:19pm |
re: #1073 yochanan
frankly i am waiting to see how badly Israel is screwed i have lots of major disagreements with the zero on that. frankly i can't lie and say other wise.
On that we agree.
| 1083 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:00:29pm |
re: #927 Killgore Trout
The guy is an instant right wing hero for a very classless and rude outburst during a presidential speech. He'll be all over Fox and invited so speak at Tea Parties now. This is what gets conservatives excited these days. I find it embarrassing.
Why on earth would you find it embarrassing, now that you have severed your connections with Republicans once again? This must be wearying for you.
| 1084 |
ConservativeAtheist Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:00:29pm |
| 1085 |
McJenny50 Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:01:03pm |
re: #816 Killgore Trout
It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.
Kinda hard to be a participant when no one acknowledges any ideas you may have.
| 1087 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:01:26pm |
re: #1074 Coracle
Bull. In the speech he said likely 5% would avail themselves of a government plan. Closer to 15m.
/until the "public option" undercuts the private insurance market
| 1088 |
unrealizedviewpoint Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:01:35pm |
re: #1079 DrNaughty
As soon as employers realize that the 8% fine for not providing insurance is cheaper than providing private health insurance, that number will rise exponentially...
...and that's the end all, the plan. That's how to back door the 'govt option' for all.
| 1090 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:02pm |
re: #1079 DrNaughty
As soon as employers realize that the 8% fine for not providing insurance is cheaper than providing private health insurance, that number will rise exponentially...
Right, and the private insurance, seeing companies dropping them will do nothing to save their own asses by providing better policies for less.
| 1091 |
NJDhockeyfan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:18pm |
re: #1074 Coracle
Bull. In the speech he said likely 5% would avail themselves of a government plan. Closer to 15m.
Where did he get that 5% number? Seems kinda low to me.
| 1092 |
Aye Pod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:27pm |
re: #1067 LudwigVanQuixote
??? you must have had a brain fart... It happens to me too :)
Whatever could I have been thinking... ;-)
| 1093 |
Adrenalyn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:35pm |
re: #1069 LudwigVanQuixote
Are those members of the Gov't... Try again please.
ahem..."democrats on the floor"
that would be Congress, no ?
anyone else on the floor during the SOTU ?
that reminds me
today is Monica Lewinski's 44th birthday
seems like just yesterday she was crawling around the Oval Office floor on her hands and knees, sticking things in her mouth
ah...they grow up so fast...
| 1094 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:52pm |
re: #1080 Bagua
I am asking you to allow yourself to be held to your words and defend your position, not word games at all. The devil is in the details and while this whole plan may have something here and there that sounds good, as a package it represents a revolutionary change in our healthcare system and economy.
It that example I am asking you if you understood you were giving an example of Governmental Health Care waste.
Yes it is - and moreover, if it were cleaned up, it would work better and that is what Obama is proposing. He is even proposing it in a way that could actually work, by having doctors instead of political wonks look at it. Why is that a hard concept to get?
Where in the Ludwig rule book does it say that the govt always does things best? The argument is that what is being proposed now by the govt sounds better than what we currently have and that this is one of the things that is better.
| 1095 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:54pm |
now we are at 30 million uninsured. Obamas repeatedly claimed savings by cleaning up waste and fraud. Would this not be enough to cover the uninsured without revamping the entire system?
| 1096 |
Lucius Septimius Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:54pm |
I gotta go to bed. I expect that when I awaken you will have solved all this.
| 1097 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:55pm |
re: #1086 taxfreekiller
So, this, Obama guy, he gets to disrespect We the People and our Constitution and We the People's elected representatives can not say shit.?
Except that he doesn't.
| 1098 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:56pm |
re: #1029 mikey_dallas
I think it's despicable that this happens, but it happens now because it's apparently effective. If everyone just sat there while Obama was lying through his teeth about the illegal alien issue, would it get the play it most likely will? I don't know, but I doubt it. I don't even know who Joe Wilson is, but what he said was spot on, even if the way he did it was out of line.
All the supposed niceties and decorum of our Congress, and yet they now have an approval rating in the septic tank, where 42% of Americans think random people from a phone book could do a better job. Count me in that number for the record. They don't listen to anyone unless you've got a fat wallet or some attractive whores tagging along with you. No wonder we're shouting now.
Again, it's sad to see this level of discourse. But, that's where we are, and in my opinion, it's only going to get uglier.
| 1099 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:03:21pm |
re: #1073 yochanan
frankly i am waiting to see how badly Israel is screwed i have lots of major disagreements with the zero on that. frankly i can't lie and say other wise.
I do understand your position, and I note from your Icon that your national identity may be other than US, my point is that it is insulting to denigrate the office of the POTUS just as it would be insulting to denigrate the office of the Prime Minister of Israel. By all means oppose his policies, but give him the minimal respect his office deserves.
| 1100 |
Driftwood Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:03:25pm |
re: #863 sagehen
Except that if the insurance company has been cashing your premium checks for years, maybe they have more of an obligation to actually keep the promises they made to induce you to buy that policy in the first place.
Sure, and I will be the first to criticize when they don't, but the previous poster was suggesting that people die because insurance companies won't cover things. Rarely do I see this idea challenged. You and your doctor(s) are primarily in charge of your health. Your health insurance is primarily in charge of protecting you from major medical expenses.
| 1101 |
im_gumby_damnit Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:03:31pm |
Hey! I have an icon now. How badass is that?
| 1102 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:03:33pm |
re: #1041 Dark_Falcon
I'm not sure he's a db, Killgore. He got carried way by his emotions. That was foolish and he owed Obama an apology, but it doesn't make him a bad person. I makes him a man who made a stupid mistake.
Look, I disagreed with Bush about most everything, but it would not occur to me to do anything like Wilson did. Perhaps it's my military background that makes me respect the office of the POTUS, but he's a congressman for crying out loud, not a nirther at a Tea Party.
| 1103 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:03:47pm |
re: #1087 Killian Bundy
/until the "public option" undercuts the private insurance market
Which is helpless to compete. Cry me a river.
| 1104 |
DrNaughty Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:04:13pm |
re: #1090 Coracle
Right, and the private insurance, seeing companies dropping them will do nothing to save their own asses by providing better policies for less.
However as the cost of care keeps rising due to malpractice insurance, many insurance companies will determine that providing health insurance is simply not a profitable line... since the government is taking care of it anyway.
| 1105 |
yesandno Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:04:13pm |
No one yet answers the question that why does the bill under consideration prevent you from buying any health insurance once this bill is passed? In other words, if you are on medicare and wish to purchase additional insurance to cover what medicare doesn't...you cannot. You are prohibited. In this regard, there is only a public option in the long run.
If you have insurance, you can carry it forward. If you want to change your insurance from one carrier to another after this bill is passed, it appears you cannot.
| 1106 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:04:52pm |
frankly that the state dept will not put Israel on my grand daughter's american passport i find to be ANTI SEMITIC, that the zero supports making parts of Jerusalem JUDENFREI i find to be ANTI SEMITIC.
JERUSALEM was the Jewish capital when Washington, D.C., Paris, and London were swamps.
If i have to choose between Washington d.c or Jerusalem I CHOOSE JERUSALEM
we jews are taught to believe we are always in exile.
| 1107 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:05:33pm |
re: #1093 Adrenalyn
ahem..."democrats on the floor"
that would be Congress, no ?
anyone else on the floor during the SOTU ?that reminds me
today is Monica Lewinski's 44th birthday
seems like just yesterday she was crawling around the Oval Office floor on her hands and knees, sticking things in her mouthah...they grow up so fast...
And it was so very classy for the GOP, many of which have equal or worse problems with policing their peckers to derail the nations politics for a year and a half over it.
It was a shameful exercise that goes more on the GOP as wrong than Clinton.
| 1108 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:06:01pm |
re: #1068 n in wi
At least no one threw a shoe
Booing/cheering is SOP for both sides and has been for as long as I remember, but this was a first.
| 1109 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:06:02pm |
re: #1104 DrNaughty
However as the cost of care keeps rising due to malpractice insurance, many insurance companies will determine that providing health insurance is simply not a profitable line... since the government is taking care of it anyway.
Unless tort reform also becomes part of the plan, as the President opened the door to tonight. But then that would make this a harder argument, so we can ignore it.
| 1111 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:06:48pm |
re: #1103 Coracle
Which is helpless to compete. Cry me a river.
Yes, it would be helpless to compete because of forced mandated coverage and penalties imposed by taxation and profit limiting.
| 1112 |
The Left Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:07:00pm |
re: #1094 LudwigVanQuixote
Where in the Ludwig rule book does it say that the govt always does things best?
I am intrigued by the Ludwig rule book, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter...
/simpsons ref
| 1114 |
Adrenalyn Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:07:44pm |
re: #1108 avanti
Booing/cheering is SOP for both sides and has been for as long as I remember, but this was a first.
according to the MSM, 2005 was the first
I believe the MSM, don't you ?
| 1115 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:08:09pm |
re: #1094 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes it is - and moreover, if it were cleaned up, it would work better and that is what Obama is proposing. He is even proposing it in a way that could actually work, by having doctors instead of political wonks look at it. Why is that a hard concept to get?
Where in the Ludwig rule book does it say that the govt always does things best? The argument is that what is being proposed now by the govt sounds better than what we currently have and that this is one of the things that is better.
Ok thank you, I just wanted to know if you would acknowledge my point.
To the substance we could debate, of course, and I would suggest that there is much in the Government funded and administered VA healthcare that gives one great doubt as to the Governments ability to improve our Health Care system, a system that is far from perfect but vastly superior to what would result from Socialization.
| 1116 |
alegrias Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:08:10pm |
re: #1113 taxfreekiller
Obama and his supporters, American drift wood.
Soon climate change floods will wash it all away.
* * * *
Night, TFK, Sir!
Keep the faith.
| 1117 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:08:24pm |
re: #1106 yochanan
frankly that the state dept will not put Israel on my grand daughter's american passport i find to be ANTI SEMITIC, that the zero supports making parts of Jerusalem JUDENFREI i find to be ANTI SEMITIC.
JERUSALEM was the Jewish capital when Washington, D.C., Paris, and London were swamps.
If i have to choose between Washington d.c or Jerusalem I CHOOSE JERUSALEMwe jews are taught to believe we are always in exile.
This is a Godwin argument. From you. Again. Using the loaded nazi term "judenfrei" is tantamount to you calling Obama a Nazi.
| 1118 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:08:28pm |
re: #1106 yochanan
frankly that the state dept will not put Israel on my grand daughter's american passport i find to be ANTI SEMITIC, that the zero supports making parts of Jerusalem JUDENFREI i find to be ANTI SEMITIC.
JERUSALEM was the Jewish capital when Washington, D.C., Paris, and London were swamps.
If i have to choose between Washington d.c or Jerusalem I CHOOSE JERUSALEMwe jews are taught to believe we are always in exile.
Be careful about that. It is true, but there is a difference between the state of Israel and the land of Israel. However much I love Israel, and however much of a zionist I am (and I do and I am) I am an American. I am not even an American first. I am an American.
As to Obama's policies towards Israel, they are horrible. I deplore them too and further you do not help the Jewish cause by pissing on him in this way.
| 1119 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:09:02pm |
re: #1107 LudwigVanQuixote
And it was so very classy for the GOP, many of which have equal or worse problems with policing their peckers to derail the nations politics for a year and a half over it.
It was a shameful exercise that goes more on the GOP as wrong than Clinton.
How many Republicans lied to a Federal prosocutor about their affairs,or tried to get others to lie abouut it?
| 1120 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:09:05pm |
After 8 years of bush=snickelgruber and other forms of hate I really am not in the mood to give donks respect right now let them earn it.
every time the zero bashes bush and blames him for problems that isn't showing the office any respect is it?
| 1121 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:09:14pm |
re: #1094 LudwigVanQuixote
Yes it is - and moreover, if it were cleaned up, it would work better and that is what Obama is proposing. He is even proposing it in a way that could actually work, by having doctors instead of political wonks look at it. Why is that a hard concept to get?
Do you think that having the business handled by businessmen instead of policy wonks, that might also go a bit better?
| 1122 |
sagehen Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:09:54pm |
re: #1041 Dark_Falcon
I'm not sure he's a db, Killgore. He got carried way by his emotions. That was foolish and he owed Obama an apology, but it doesn't make him a bad person. I makes him a man who made a stupid mistake.
To quote Obama himself from yesterday:
"If you get in trouble, it doesn't mean you're a troublemaker. It just means you have to try harder to behave."
| 1123 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:10:04pm |
re: #1111 n in wi
Yes, it would be helpless to compete because of forced mandated coverage and penalties imposed by taxation and profit limiting.
You show me that no win formula written into the current bill, much less the final, as yet unwritten one.
| 1124 |
Mich-again Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:10:05pm |
re: #996 Charles
OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.
I sure don't see any reason at all to think they are anywhere near as beholden to the trial lawyers lobby as the Dems are. I'm guessing 1/19th as much. I also can't imagine any scenario where the Dem and Republican leaders either conspired together or arrived at the same conclusion separately that leaving tort reform and the trial lawyers out of health care reform altogether was in their best interests. Not both of them. That wouldn't make political sense for the GOP. Not for 5%.
| 1125 |
Aye Pod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:10:13pm |
re: #1089 iceweasel
Freud- Sex You Again
Sounds like it's time to slip into something more comfortable...:)
| 1126 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:10:17pm |
re: #1120 yochanan
After 8 years of bush=snickelgruber and other forms of hate I really am not in the mood to give donks respect right now let them earn it.
every time the zero bashes bush and blames him for problems that isn't showing the office any respect is it?
You are exactly right.
| 1128 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:11:31pm |
re: #1120 yochanan
After 8 years of bush=snickelgruber and other forms of hate I really am not in the mood to give donks respect right now let them earn it.
every time the zero bashes bush and blames him for problems that isn't showing the office any respect is it?
Of course. Why would you respect him. You think he's a Nazi.
| 1129 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:11:34pm |
re: #1119 n in wi
How many Republicans lied to a Federal prosocutor about their affairs,or tried to get others to lie abouut it?
How many Democrats get up and claim to be model Christians even then, only to have their peccadillos come out. Care to count?
| 1130 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:11:56pm |
re: #1109 Coracle
I'm still waiting for that answer. Do you choose to ignore arguments which you cannot counter?
| 1131 |
The Left Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:12:15pm |
re: #1125 Jimmah
Sounds like it's time to slip into something more comfortable...:)
[Video]
Damn, my bunny suit is at the cleaners, Jimmah-ski. Will the anarchist outfit suffice? ;)
| 1133 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:12:39pm |
re: #1117 Coracle
judenfrei exist long before the nazis every country in europe did it, in fact general grant wanted to do it during the civil war and was stop by President L.
saying jews can't live some were is judenfrei it is anti semitic at it core. and i will not change the words i use.
if it ofends you tough anti semitism offends me it esp, offends me when my own gov't does it.
| 1134 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:13:15pm |
re: #599 buzzsawmonkey
"That which exists doesn't conform to the various opinions, but rather the correct opinions conform to that which exists."
--Themistius
“Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.”
--Ayn Rand
| 1135 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:13:20pm |
re: #1079 DrNaughty
As soon as employers realize that the 8% fine for not providing insurance is cheaper than providing private health insurance, that number will rise exponentially...
Yep.
If the government is going to make employers legally responsible for paying for the bulk of their employees health care, they are going to choose the cheapest method.
| 1136 |
Achilles Tang Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:13:35pm |
re: #1075 FrogMarch
I know- lets spend 900 billion to give health care to 14 million - or 30 million.
What a deal!
I don't know the numbers, nor the best solutions; but I do know that I hear a lot of people complaining about the possibility of having government, taxpayers, pay for health care for millions of uninsured, when that is precisely what we do now anyway. The only difference is that the cost comes out of a different pocket, so we pretend we aren't paying. The truth is that the uninsured, many of them at least, are the ones saving at everyone else's expense.
The other thing I hear a lot is this matter of the government making decisions for us, or rationing care in some way. We have all that right now, except it is done by the insurance companies in one way or another, and they do it for their profit.
I get pissed off because I do pay through the nose for private insurance, and have never had to use it significantly so far; but I pay more for less coverage (that's rationed coverage) than anyone working for government or large corporations (and my cost isn't tax deductible), so I'm subsidizing them and I think a lot of "them" are the ones protesting any discussion the loudest.
Just saying...
| 1139 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:14:59pm |
re: #1123 Coracle
You show me that no win formula written into the current bill, much less the final, as yet unwritten one.
So you feel that the appropriate time to engage in informed debate is after a bill is written and amended, but before is is voted upon.
How much time should be allowed for that "national conversation" which will re-write about one-seventh of our economy?
Contrast this with Senator Arlen Specter's attempted "We have no time to read these thousand-page bills, we just vote on them" defense. Can you blame the people who shouted?
| 1140 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:15:04pm |
re: #1135 Wendya
Yep.
If the government is going to make employers legally responsible for paying for the bulk of their employees health care, they are going to choose the cheapest method.
Most especially if that employee supported Obama.
| 1141 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:15:16pm |
re: #1121 haakondahl
Do you think that having the business handled by businessmen instead of policy wonks, that might also go a bit better?
Not everything is or should be a business. I don't want business men driving my nuclear submarine or determining research goals.
| 1142 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:15:28pm |
re: #1131 iceweasel
Damn, my bunny suit is at the cleaners, Jimmah-ski. Will the anarchist outfit suffice? ;)
| 1143 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:15:28pm |
re: #1133 yochanan
judenfrei exist long before the nazis every country in europe did it, in fact general grant wanted to do it during the civil war and was stop by President L.
saying jews can't live some were is judenfrei it is anti semitic at it core. and i will not change the words i use.
if it ofends you tough anti semitism offends me it esp, offends me when my own gov't does it.
The term judenfrei itself is a Nazi term. Attributing - and insisting again and again on using that term as the position of the President directly insinuates him as a Nazi. It raises the ludicrous charge of antisemitism to a positively fringe-right height.
| 1144 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:16:22pm |
re: #1110 yochanan
NO
Well fine, your right to be rude I suppose. In my opinion your attitude and approach greatly undermine those of us who wish to oppose President Obama's policies to which we object.
You also give strength and standing to those who would question the loyalties and patriotism of American Jews.
| 1146 |
Aye Pod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:17:34pm |
re: #1131 iceweasel
Damn, my bunny suit is at the cleaners, Jimmah-ski. Will the anarchist outfit suffice? ;)
Absolutely - and don't forget to bring the mace. That really worked for me the last time ;-)
| 1147 |
Wendya Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:17:47pm |
re: #1140 J.D.
Most especially if that employee supported Obama.
I have to wonder how many companies with 60 employees will dismiss 11 of them to get below the magic number of 50. Firing those 11 would be a huge cost savings.
| 1148 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:18:14pm |
re: #1139 haakondahl
So you feel that the appropriate time to engage in informed debate is after a bill is written and amended, but before is is voted upon.
No. I wrote in this very thread that 3200 cannot pass as is. It should not. After this speech it will need to be altered significantly or completely trashed and redone. Save the rest of your grandstanding for a time when you're not putting words in someone else's mouth.
| 1149 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:18:18pm |
re: #1141 LudwigVanQuixote
Not everything is or should be a business. I don't want business men driving my nuclear submarine or determining research goals.
Interesting, how did the Soviet science hold up against the US in the cold war?
As I recall one of them collapsed in ruin.
| 1150 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:18:51pm |
re: #1143 Coracle
The term judenfrei itself is a Nazi term. Attributing - and insisting again and again on using that term as the position of the President directly insinuates him as a Nazi. It raises the ludicrous charge of antisemitism to a positively fringe-right height.
He actually called him snicklegrouper...
Yoch, he is not a Nazi. Screaming he is one does not help.
I hate his policies towards Israel too. But this is not the way to accomplish anything. Save the Nazi rhetoric for the those who are actually out to kill us all.
| 1151 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:19:04pm |
re: #1129 LudwigVanQuixote
How many Democrats get up and claim to be model Christians even then, only to have their peccadillos come out. Care to count?
How many Dem's enrich themselves with the free market, then try to change the system under the guise that we aren't as capable as they.
Pick your hypocrisy.
Do you prefer leaders with high morals, that are not always meet,or,leaders with low morals that are meet?
| 1152 |
borgcube Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:19:42pm |
re: #1048 Killgore Trout
I'm not doing anything of the sort. I'm too old fashioned, still contributing money to certain causes and candidates. I'm pretty stupid apparently as I could probably toss a pie in some a-hole politician's face and actually get a germane response back from his office (not directly to me, but he'd almost be forced to respond in some manner) instead of a form letter thanking me for my support even though I think he maybe should be drawn and quartered.
| 1153 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:20:02pm |
re: #1128 Coracle
i have never called him a Nazi he is a leftist social democrat
anti semitism is wrong. the Nazi's did not invent it in euroland making countries and places judenfrei wasn't started by them at one time or another every euroland country has done it.
the Spanish did it in 1492, for example Spain became free of Jews.
when the American gov't says Jews can't live in the Jewish capital city that is EVIL. I don't intend to mince words.
| 1154 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:20:02pm |
re: #1149 Bagua
Interesting, how did the Soviet science hold up against the US in the cold war?
As I recall one of them collapsed in ruin.
INteresting - Did you know that almost all of that cold war research in the US was paid for by big govt programs from DOE NSF NIH NASA DOD and continues to be that way today?
| 1155 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:20:08pm |
re: #1145 MacDuff
re: #1118 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm with yochanan on this one. Obama has shown Israel nothing but belligerence and deserves all of the Jewish scorn that can be heaped upon him. What goes around comes around.
Well enjoy yourself then, but at least hear the possibility that what you are doing is doing nothing to harm President Obama, on the contrary, your provide him with cover.
| 1156 |
J.D. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:20:29pm |
re: #1147 Wendya
I have to wonder how many companies with 60 employees will dismiss 11 of them to get below the magic number of 50. Firing those 11 would be a huge cost savings.
Let's hope we don't ever find out.
| 1158 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:20:39pm |
re: #1151 n in wi
Do you prefer leaders with high morals, that are not always meet,or,leaders with low morals that are meet?
Don't forget the ones who claim high morals, and want to force me to follow their moral code, while they themselves wantonly break them.
| 1159 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:21:26pm |
re: #1103 Coracle
Which is helpless to compete. Cry me a river.
/should I cry before or after yet another government social program ObamaCare winds up tens of trillions in the red like Medicare and Social Security, on the taxpayers' backs?
| 1160 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:21:43pm |
re: #1141 LudwigVanQuixote
Not everything is or should be a business. I don't want business men driving my nuclear submarine or determining research goals.
And yet business is the process of making things efficient. Heaven knows, government is not. I agree that some things are not and should not be businesses. We are simply going to have to accept that those things will run at a much lower efficiency than if they were.
There are no savings to be wrung out of government programs without reductions in services.
I do not doubt that the President believes what he says, to at lest some extent. This is because he has no experience in an executive position, and feels rather that passing laws is the way to solve problems. What do you think will happen when the government option inevitably shows its government nature and falls behind private options in either services, affordability, or both?
LAWS WILL BE PASSED TO PROTECT THE GOVERNMENT OPTION.
| 1161 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:22:48pm |
re: #1145 MacDuff
re: #1118 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm with yochanan on this one. Obama has shown Israel nothing but belligerence and deserves all of the Jewish scorn that can be heaped upon him. What goes around comes around.
My biggest beef with Obama is over Israel and Iran. However, calling him a Nazi, and that is what Yochanon was doing, is not accurate or right. It also makes Jews look hysterical.
Who after all was Shicklegruber?
| 1162 |
wintercat Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:22:55pm |
re: #1018 marjoriemoon
Oh moses smell the roses.
HE AIN'T TAKIN YER GUNS, YER BIBLE OR YER HEALTHCARE.
How many times does he have to say it?
Do you know what Medicare, Medicaid and VA benefits cover? Do you realize we already have government healthcare?
I'm out ya'll. Pooped. Have a good eve.
Um. I don't own a gun. I don't attend church. I don't have government healthcare. Thank you for your insightful remarks. You are a credit to your side of the argument.
| 1163 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:23:22pm |
re: #1141 LudwigVanQuixote
Not everything is or should be a business. I don't want business men driving my nuclear submarine or determining research goals.
How much do you want to pay those that are the best at those endeavors ?
| 1164 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:23:29pm |
re: #1154 LudwigVanQuixote
INteresting - Did you know that almost all of that cold war research in the US was paid for by big govt programs from DOE NSF NIH NASA DOD and continues to be that way today?
Yes, "paid for," exactly", with much of the work done by private industry which had a definite profit motive.
| 1165 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:23:32pm |
re: #1132 Coracle
The answer to what?
Attention span problems? Sorry, I'm not going to rephrase a question, only to receive an inane answer. Clearly you do ignore that which you cannot answer.
| 1166 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:24:35pm |
re: #1153 yochanan
i have never called him a Nazi he is a leftist social democrat
You regularly accuse Obama of wanting judenfrei. Not slowed or halted settlements in disputed territories, but judenfrei. Not a discussion between the parties in Jerusalem about final status, but judenfrei. It is a nazi term you are attributing to him over and over. If you don't think he is one, don't use the term.
when the American gov't says Jews can't live in the Jewish capital city that is EVIL. I don't intend to mince words.
But you do get facts wrong. The America gov't doens't say Jews can't live in the Jewish Capital. I certainly don't care for some of the current US policy towards Israel, but I'd rather not see crap be made up about it.
| 1167 |
The Left Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:24:37pm |
re: #1142 LudwigVanQuixote
Can't I ding you more than once? In hysterics here...
It's a ding in a box...
| 1169 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:25:25pm |
re: #1141 LudwigVanQuixote
That is a strawman argument, no one here has yet preached any anarchist positions. Health care is not comparable to the military; defense is one of the few legitimate activities of the government.
| 1170 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:26:10pm |
re: #1159 Killian Bundy
/should I cry before or after yet another
government social programObamaCare winds up tens of trillions in the red like Medicare and Social Security, on the taxpayers' backs?
Such a program won't be signed. Or were you listening to the speech?
| 1171 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:26:30pm |
re: #1164 Bagua
Yes, "paid for," exactly", with much of the work done by private industry which had a definite profit motive.
No not at all.
Name one major scientific breakthrough in fundamental research that was privately funded in the last 50 years. Better TV does not count.
Even routers for Benjamin Cisko started as part of his gov't funded research.
But what about any of the physics or major biological discoveries in the last 50 years? You are just wrong about this.
| 1172 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:26:42pm |
re: #1161 LudwigVanQuixote
My biggest beef with Obama is over Israel and Iran. However, calling him a Nazi, and that is what Yochanon was doing, is not accurate or right. It also makes Jews look hysterical.
Who after all was Shicklegruber?
Exactly, and makes the voices of opposition appear small, petty and biased, just like those who ranted against President Bush during his term.
| 1173 |
The Left Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:27:17pm |
re: #1146 Jimmah
Absolutely - and don't forget to bring the mace. That really worked for me the last time ;-)
I was hoping to role play America and the Patriot Act again soon...but anarchy is always cool!
| 1174 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:28:08pm |
re: #1166 Coracle
frankly when he said we should build and live in parts of Jerusalem that is exactly what is being done.
the U.S. state dept will not put Israel on my grand daughters passport because she was born in Jerusalem.
i do not intend to change my opinion and frankly i don't care if you don't like it.
| 1175 |
n in wi Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:28:20pm |
re: #1170 Coracle
Such a program won't be signed. Or were you listening to the speech?
Yeah,cuz if Obama sez it,it will be true. Just look at his record.
| 1176 |
Killian Bundy Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:28:20pm |
re: #1170 Coracle
Such a program won't be signed. Or were you listening to the speech?
Yeah, right. *snicker*
/because, of course, Obama never lies or says one thing and does another
| 1177 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:28:38pm |
re: #1171 LudwigVanQuixote
Name one major scientific breakthrough in fundamental research that was privately funded in the last 50 years. Better TV does not count.
| 1178 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:29:14pm |
re: #1173 iceweasel
I was hoping to role play America and the Patriot Act again soon...but anarchy is always cool!
[Video]
YAHOO!
| 1179 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:29:30pm |
re: #1171 LudwigVanQuixote
No not at all.
Name one major scientific breakthrough in fundamental research that was privately funded in the last 50 years. Better TV does not count.
Even routers for Benjamin Cisko started as part of his gov't funded research.
But what about any of the physics or major biological discoveries in the last 50 years? You are just wrong about this.
You misunderstood me, I am not saying private funding, both sides absolutely used government funding and I do not object to it, especially in defence. The difference is in the industry, the US has a private for profit component at its heart (though far from perfect) whereas the Soviet had government owned industry as its base.
| 1180 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:29:31pm |
re: #1174 yochanan
frankly when he said we should build and live in parts of Jerusalem that is exactly what is being done.
the U.S. state dept will not put Israel on my grand daughters passport because she was born in Jerusalem.
i do not intend to change my opinion and frankly i don't care if you don't like it.
You're welcome to your paranoid fantasies.
| 1181 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:30:13pm |
gotta split... I gots other things to do...
| 1182 |
EaterOfFood Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:30:28pm |
re: #420 reine.de.tout
I don't like Obama very much, but I really wish you would just use his name or "the President", rather than "ogoofy". Please.
He ought to be ashamed of himself. Goofy never hurt anyone.
| 1183 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:30:46pm |
| 1184 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:31:08pm |
re: #1155 Bagua
Well enjoy yourself then, but at least hear the possibility that what you are doing is doing nothing to harm President Obama, on the contrary, your provide him with cover.
Did I say I was out to harm the president? I said that I thought that he deserved scorn for his shabby treatment of Israel. I still do. Oh, and yes, I am enjoying myself immensely in my disdain of Obama's Israel policy. Thanks for your concern.
| 1185 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:31:16pm |
re: #1171 LudwigVanQuixote
Why only the 50 year window? Just because the majority of research currently done is tax payer subsidized, doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done privately.
| 1186 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:31:34pm |
re: #1148 Coracle
No. I wrote in this very thread that 3200 cannot pass as is. It should not. After this speech it will need to be altered significantly or completely trashed and redone. Save the rest of your grandstanding for a time when you're not putting words in someone else's mouth.
Just a minute, you liar.
"n in wi" said, of a given private plan under ObamaCare:
Yes, it would be helpless to compete because of forced mandated coverage and penalties imposed by taxation and profit limiting.
Forced mandated coverage, increased taxation on businesses, and limits on profits are all topics which Democrats have mooted in the last few weeks or months.
You said:
You show me that no-win formula written into the current bill, much less the final, as yet unwritten one.
I responded:
So you feel that the appropriate time to engage in informed debate is after a bill is written and amended, but before is is voted upon.
You know damned well what you said, and I find it revealing that the least objectionable part of what I wrote is what you objected to--the interpretation of your own words as something eminently reasonable, which is that first a bill is made available for scrutiny, and then we can discuss it in an informed fashion.
I take it that rather, you are one of those who regrets not having gotten this piece of shit bill passed in the dead of night as was originally attempted. I greatly dislike legislative jam-downs. I reacted strongly and negatively to the McCain Kennedy Amnesty jamdown, and I like this one even less.
| 1187 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:32:21pm |
| 1188 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:34:26pm |
re: #1171 LudwigVanQuixote
LCD Displays discovered in a private lab (RCA), further refined in a private enterprise supported lab on campus.
| 1189 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:35:03pm |
re: #1184 MacDuff
Did I say I was out to harm the president? I said that I thought that he deserved scorn for his shabby treatment of Israel. I still do. Oh, and yes, I am enjoying myself immensely in my disdain of Obama's Israel policy. Thanks for your concern.
I did not mean "harm" in the physical sense, I mean harm politically, I think that is clear. And yes I know you derive some sort of pleasure from your disrespect, what I am suggesting is that what you are doing is actually strengthening the President by relegating your voice to one from the gutter that is easily dismissed.
| 1190 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:35:25pm |
re: #1103 Coracle
Which is helpless to compete. Cry me a river.
What you are talking about so glibly is the destruction of an antire sector of industry, with not only all of the jobs and economic benefits produced, but as well the innovation.
Government will never cure cancer. When "government" researches such things, they act in conjunction with private industry, and as clearinghouses for information and legal issues betweem private companies. The cure for cancer is capitalism.
I'm really taken aback by your "cry me a river" comment. You're no reformer. You're a "tear it down" radical.
| 1191 |
yochanan Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:36:55pm |
i do not intend to sugar coat an anti semitic policy Jerusalem isn't the 'o''s to tell jews were to settle
if the mere sight of a jew makes an arab anti semite want to have blood lust and murder I guess there wasn't going to be peace anyway.
the odd thing is the building that the 'o' said we could not build in did in fact at one time belong to the GRAND MUFTI OF JERUSALEM.
| 1192 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:37:38pm |
re: #1114 Adrenalyn
according to the MSM, 2005 was the first
I believe the MSM, don't you ?
Nope, it happened to Clinton and the GOP House leader told them to cool it for his next appearance. I don't think that was a first either, Johnson was booed as I recall.
| 1193 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:38:48pm |
re: #1190 haakondahl
What you are talking about so glibly is the destruction of an [e]ntire sector of industry [...]
And to ensure that it is absolutely clear, that industry is the net summation of the individual efforts of millions of individuals; "industry" isn't some airy abstraction.
| 1194 |
Aye Pod Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:39:32pm |
re: #1173 iceweasel
I was hoping to role play America and the Patriot Act again soon...but anarchy is always cool!
Definitely - I think it must be my turn to be America this time ;-) I was wondering btw - have you ever considered a feather cut?
| 1195 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:39:35pm |
re: #1186 haakondahl
Nice accusation. Also full of shit.
Here's what I wrote: in #636
I both respect that, and agree with it. I think he's cut a very big challenge for himself and congress. The various bills as written cannot pass - in part because they lack support, in part because they lack some of the things he's defined as necessary, and in part because he can't sign them because they're not deficit neutral. A new bill is going to be needed, or the current one virtually completely rewritten.
You may fault me for not calling 3200 by number, I'll take that lump. But I would consider it "one of the various bills as written".
Calling someone a liar when being dead wrong speaks poorly for you.
| 1196 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:40:07pm |
re: #1162 wintercat
Um. I don't own a gun. I don't attend church. I don't have government healthcare. Thank you for your insightful remarks. You are a credit to your side of the argument.
Exactly. I don't know if she's a sophisticated leftist or a habitual leftist, but her tactics are typical. I don't care for ObamaCare; I must be made to look like some gun-totin', bible-thumpin' redneck (perhaps named Moses).
| 1197 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:40:56pm |
re: #1190 haakondahl
What you are talking about so glibly is the destruction of an antire sector of industry, with not only all of the jobs and economic benefits produced, but as well the innovation.
Except I do not believe for one second that the industry is in any danger of being destroyed.
| 1198 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:42:14pm |
By way of example, here I am arguing against the Presidents health care proposal, yet, I need to waste time distancing myself from those who prefer denigration over debate, thus my voice in opposition is weakened. Alternatively, I am silenced and I do not wish to be associated with such behaviour. Either way, President Obama gets a free pass from my criticism.
| 1200 |
avanti Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:43:20pm |
| 1201 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:43:55pm |
re: #1195 Coracle
Nice accusation. Also full of shit.
Here's what I wrote: in #636
You may fault me for not calling 3200 by number, I'll take that lump. But I would consider it "one of the various bills as written".
You and I are speaking different languages. In my universe, I didn't say anything about the bill number, whereas you asked to see a final bill.
Oh, we understand each other, but you are being dishonest.
| 1202 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:47:45pm |
re: #1201 haakondahl
You and I are speaking different languages. In my universe, I didn't say anything about the bill number, whereas you asked to see a final bill.
Oh, we understand each other, but you are being dishonest.
I responded to someone who was cocksure the numbers would result in the destruction of the insurance industry. I asked him to show me where that math was in the current bills, and then, cynically, to show them to me in the as yet unwritten final bill as a direct challenge to his certainty that this was the only possible direction. It was pretty simple, if a little obnoxious.
I really don't appreciate you making up shit about people though. It's a bad habit.
| 1203 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:50:04pm |
re: #1170 Coracle
Such a program won't be signed. Or were you listening to the speech?
For a President who has pushed our projected debt up to someting like 10 Trillion dollars but speaks of pinching penies in Medicare, his promise not to sign a bill that raises taxes is worse than meaningless--it is window-dressing for a shady pawn shop.
| 1204 |
MacDuff Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:50:58pm |
re: #1189 Bagua
I did not mean "harm" in the physical sense, I mean harm politically, I think that is clear. And yes I know you derive some sort of pleasure from your disrespect, what I am suggesting is that what you are doing is actually strengthening the President by relegating your voice to one from the gutter that is easily dismissed.
Nor did I mean "harm" in the physical sense, and I find it curious that you would assume as much from me. My opinions are not calibrated to the political well being of this, or any President. They are opinions and I don't give a damn if they're politically harmful or not.
Since when, dear Bagua, did extreme disagreement with a President's foreign policy, particularly toward an ally such as Israel equate to "regulating (my) voice to the gutter"?
Since when, dear Bagua does disagreement with a President on policy equal "disrespect"?
| 1205 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:51:40pm |
re: #1203 haakondahl
For a President who has pushed our projected debt up to someting like 10 Trillion dollars but speaks of pinching penies in Medicare, his promise not to sign a bill that raises taxes is worse than meaningless--it is window-dressing for a shady pawn shop.
What you think of the President and his policies is clear. No speech will change that.
| 1206 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:52:06pm |
re: #1173 iceweasel
I was hoping to role play America and the Patriot Act again soon...but anarchy is always cool!
[Video]
If you think America and the Patriot Act is fun, wait until you see innocent civilians and the Gore administration!
| 1207 |
Van Helsing Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:55:48pm |
re: #897 Charles
Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.
They get more money from us taxpayers than those guys - how come they're not in our pockets?
| 1208 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:56:18pm |
re: #1205 Coracle
What you think of the President and his policies is clear. No speech will change that.
What I think* of the President is a result of the way he promotes his policies, and what those policies actually are.
What I think of those policies is a result of an understanding of the merits of socialism vs capitalism and the implications for a free society, as well as a healthy respect for the law of unintended consequences.
I do not feel that he is an evil man, I have no hatred for him, and I hoe that you will accept that I am working this process forward, from principles to conclusions, and not the other way around.
So it is not true that no speech will change what I think of him. A speech announcing a change in policies has a good chance of improving my assessment of the President. However, such a speech is unlikely. Perhaps a subtle point, but a quite important one.
| 1209 |
Van Helsing Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:58:06pm |
re: #1185 Dan G.
Why only the 50 year window? Just because the majority of research currently done is tax payer subsidized, doesn't mean that it couldn't have been done privately.
Before it got broken up.
Just one example of many. Of course the national labs are nothing to sneeze at but they partner with industry to commercialize their ideas.
| 1210 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:58:27pm |
re: #1204 MacDuff
Nor did I mean "harm" in the physical sense, and I find it curious that you would assume as much from me.
I misunderstood your post, I thought you were alleging that I saying that you meant physical harm and were protesting that, I do not assume that from you at all.
| 1211 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:58:57pm |
re: #1197 Coracle
Except I do not believe for one second that the industry is in any danger of being destroyed.
And I do not doubt that many of your fellow-travellers do not actually wish such a thing.
Hugo Chavez nationalized Venezuela's oil industry. I have no doubt whatsoever that he did not intend to destroy it. How would you describe the state of that industry now?
| 1212 |
J.S. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:59:15pm |
In Alberta right now it's a slightly different worry (it's not about insurance companies making too much profit), it's about hospital closures. (This has been on-going for the past several years now.) Today, it's closing Alberta Hospital (it's a psychiatric hospital) and it means an estimated 150 patients will be turfed...(where these people will go is anyone's guess -- probably out onto the streets...as homeless beggars...but that's what the Conservatives of Alberta do...)
| 1213 |
Dan G. Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:01:35pm |
re: #1209 Van Helsing
Yep. I actually straddle that "fence" (academia/industry). The lab I'm a student in constantly does research for industry, we also commercialize our inventions through industry, and in my interactions with industry I've found that *surprise* some do their own research and make their own discoveries! ;)
| 1214 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:01:58pm |
re: #1204 MacDuff
Since when, dear Bagua, did extreme disagreement with a President's foreign policy, particularly toward an ally such as Israel equate to "regulating (my) voice to the gutter"?
Since when, dear Bagua does disagreement with a President on policy equal "disrespect"?
Note that I was not addressing you in particular, rather, another poster who was using terms such as "zero" and making comparisons to Nazis, and more generally to all those doing similar just as I opposed those denigrating Bush during his term.
As you jumped in and took the opposite side it appeared you supported such talk. This goes well beyond "extreme disagreement." Disagreement is fine, denigrating the office is not.
| 1215 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:04:44pm |
re: #1208 haakondahl
What I think* of the President is a result of the way he promotes his policies, and what those policies actually are.
What I think of those policies is a result of an understanding of the merits of socialism vs capitalism and the implications for a free society, as well as a healthy respect for the law of unintended consequences.I do not feel that he is an evil man, I have no hatred for him, and I hoe that you will accept that I am working this process forward, from principles to conclusions, and not the other way around.
So it is not true that no speech will change what I think of him. A speech announcing a change in policies has a good chance of improving my assessment of the President. However, such a speech is unlikely. Perhaps a subtle point, but a quite important one.
I would feel so much better about this post if you didn't think you were responding to a liar. A dishonest one at that.
| 1216 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:06:40pm |
re: #1211 haakondahl
And I do not doubt that many of your fellow-travellers do not actually wish such a thing.
Hugo Chavez nationalized Venezuela's oil industry. I have no doubt whatsoever that he did not intend to destroy it. How would you describe the state of that industry now?
I would call it sick. But I would also call it irrelevant, since that is not the kind of proposal on the table for US healthcare.
| 1217 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:17:55pm |
re: #1198 Bagua
By way of example, here I am arguing against the Presidents health care proposal, yet, I need to waste time distancing myself from those who prefer denigration over debate, thus my voice in opposition is weakened. Alternatively, I am silenced and I do not wish to be associated with such behaviour. Either way, President Obama gets a free pass from my criticism.
And this is why I object so strongly to Killgore's and Cato the Elder's continual sewer-diving. They run off to crazy places that half of us won't go to on a dare, in order to find examples of stupid people saying shitty things, then drop those turds here. God forbid, we actually get to talk about something right fucking here, on its own merits.
Then, there' the inevitable sanctimonious and wounded disavowal of the Republican Party, the right, conservatism, capitalism, or whatever it is supposed to be an example of. There isn't a week that goes by where one or the other of those guys doesn't flounce from the right. Well here's the thing--it's all a damned act, just to keep painting the right as lunatic.
The flounce is the giveaway. Killgore today once again announces that he is done with the Republicans. Oh, horrors, we've lost the support of Killgore once again, because he doesn't like what he sees at some other site.
It's trolling--it just doesn't happen to be crude. Cato the Elder (who should be back from vacation about now, so I'm uncorking this again) actually challenged me to a duel and/or a fistfight three times in one thread, and called me a coward repeatedly because I won't go to his house to fight him. And on and on that thread went. That was some unbelievable trolling, but because he is not restricted to single-syllable words, it seems less unseemly. It is not.
| 1218 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:18:18pm |
re: #1215 Coracle
I would feel so much better about this post if you didn't think you were responding to a liar. A dishonest one at that.
No you wouldn't.
| 1219 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:19:24pm |
re: #1216 Coracle
I would call it sick. But I would also call it irrelevant, since that is not the kind of proposal on the table for US healthcare.
Yes it is. Just not knowingly, for some. For the "tear it down" radicals, in full knowledge.
| 1220 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:20:32pm |
re: #1218 haakondahl
No you wouldn't.
You clearly don't know me. I found opinions there I could respect, even if I disagreed with them. But respect is a two way street.
| 1221 |
Locker Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:22:42pm |
re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote
OK, that kicked ass...
I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.
Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,
I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.
Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.
Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?
What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.
What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?
Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.
The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.
Fucking awesome man. Off the hook.
| 1222 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:23:21pm |
re: #1219 haakondahl
Yes it is. Just not knowingly, for some. For the "tear it down" radicals, in full knowledge.
Your opinion is your own. I see it in neither the current bills nor the President's speech.
| 1223 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:24:26pm |
re: #1211 haakondahl
And I do not doubt that many of your fellow-travellers do not actually wish such a thing.
Hugo Chavez nationalized Venezuela's oil industry. I have no doubt whatsoever that he did not intend to destroy it. How would you describe the state of that industry now?
Some detail on that:
Irate over a growing backlog of invoices, many of the companies threatened to halt operations – something PDVSA and Chavez can ill-afford. The company is accounts for about half of Venezuela’s revenue, and is largely responsible for funding and administering the social programs that Chavez has employed to court popular support.PDVSA brought in more than $120 billion in revenue in 2008, but this year, it will likely make just $50 billion.
With its back against the wall, PDVSA is demanding that service companies accept a 40% cut in their bills.[Link: www.moneymorning.com...]
| 1224 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:26:48pm |
| 1225 |
kateca Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:27:18pm |
re: #1090 Coracle
Right, and the private insurance, seeing companies dropping them will do nothing to save their own asses by providing better policies for less.
Private insurance companies are regulated by the Federal Government.
| 1226 |
Locker Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:28:13pm |
re: #353 Charles
Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.
Do you know how BADLY lots of folks here want to flame you for saying that but won't because you are the boss. You should have your dick bronzed or something. Superhero like even.
| 1227 |
Coracle Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:28:16pm |
re: #1225 kateca
Private insurance companies are regulated by the Federal Government.
Which means they are unable to make a profit. Got it.
| 1228 |
Van Helsing Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:28:29pm |
| 1229 |
jaunte Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:33:25pm |
re: #1228 Van Helsing
It makes a little more sense when you spread the 50 billion over a population of only 26 million.
| 1230 |
Locker Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:36:25pm |
re: #1224 Bagua
Why are all the brilliant orators on the left?
Probably because brilliant orators are also notoriously good looking.
| 1231 |
solomonpanting Wed, Sep 9, 2009 9:39:12pm |
Late to the game here.
Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent.
| 1232 |
haakondahl Wed, Sep 9, 2009 10:03:33pm |
re: #1226 Locker
Do you know how BADLY lots of folks here want to flame you for saying that but won't because you are the boss. You should have your dick bronzed or something. Superhero like even.
No need to flame spray.re: #435 haakondahl
Well, just wait until the problem is unassailable government bureaucracy. Then we'll be well and truly fucked.
If you think that a profit motive is a disincentive to doing good business, just wait until you experience the power of NOTHING, which is what will be more important than your health, and which is what you will get.
We are not comparing the current system to perfection. We are comparing the current system to a nightmare of dingy hallways and threadbare gowns. This is the way every single government program winds up.
Simple disagreement will do. But good luck with your dick-bronzing scheme.
| 1233 |
irving Wed, Sep 9, 2009 10:06:56pm |
re: #1230 Locker
The does not exactly explain Sarah Palin, a very attractive woman who is, to be charitable, not a very good orator.
| 1234 |
kateca Wed, Sep 9, 2009 10:20:11pm |
re: #1227 Coracle
Which means they are unable to make a profit. Got it.
They could make a bigger profit if residents of one state could shop for coverage in other states, but they cannot. Also, try moving to another state with a "preexisting".
Just one example of current Federal restrictions on the health insurance industry that limits competition.
Competition reduces cost and improves product every time it's tried.
btw, profitable businesses hire more employees, who in turn pay more taxes and shop at the mall.
| 1235 |
kateca Wed, Sep 9, 2009 10:22:43pm |
re: #1227 Coracle
Which means they are unable to make a profit. Got it.
Imagine running a business where your competitor is also your regulator.
| 1236 |
tster Wed, Sep 9, 2009 11:06:57pm |
I know I'm late to the party here, but for anyone still saying "No democrat ever interrupted Bush in a joint session of congress," there is also the point that other than State of the Union addresses and one time after 9/11 Bush never called a joint session of congress. Perhaps Joe Wilson was angry about having to attend a campaign speech for Obama.
| 1237 |
tster Wed, Sep 9, 2009 11:11:57pm |
Also I forgot to mention he started the campaign speech 15 minutes late. Did he forget and his blackberry reminded him 15 minutes in advance and he just couldn't get there through the traffic?
| 1238 |
Bagua Wed, Sep 9, 2009 11:43:15pm |
re: #1230 Locker
Probably because brilliant orators are also notoriously good looking.
I knew there was a reason! Keep it classy my friend.
| 1240 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Sep 10, 2009 1:24:56am |
re: #1188 Dan G.
LCD Displays discovered in a private lab (RCA), further refined in a private enterprise supported lab on campus.
Ummm better televisions don't count I said.
How about a new understanding of say fundamental particles or a major biological breakthrough? Or putting a man on the moon? Something like that...
| 1241 |
harpsicon Thu, Sep 10, 2009 6:25:12am |
re: #307 LudwigVanQuixote
You can't have it both ways.
He has proposed emergency measures soonest - like McCain's idea for those with pre-existing conditions, and a panel of actual health experts to do it right. I am all for the idea of having non-partisan experts (who actually know what they are talking abu0t) do the thinking on this. Call that elitist.
Like they will ever actually be "non-partisan" - particularly with this administration. The way to see this is always to ask, "Would I have allowed Bush to appoint 'non-partisan' experts?" Without vetting from anybody, into the bargain...
| 1242 |
endotoxin Thu, Sep 10, 2009 6:44:47am |
As a doctor, let me make my position clear. No tort reform, no support of Obozo's policies. Ever.
| 1243 |
gonecamping Thu, Sep 10, 2009 7:07:20am |
Next thing you know, we'll be afflicted with RINO virusesre: #39 Charles
RINO RINO RINO!
Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.
| 1244 |
mollyshark Thu, Sep 10, 2009 7:27:55am |
re: #1224 Bagua
Because it is easier to speak emotionally than it is factually.
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