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1248 comments

1 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:02:06pm

He's still talking.

2 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:02:43pm

Post-game?!

/opens tailgate, pulls out beer cooler

3 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:02:53pm

re: #1 FrogMarch

He's still talking.

And he's still in campaign mode.

4 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:02pm

It's about to finish. Trying to stay ahead of the ball here.

5 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:07pm

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

6 ted  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:22pm

Grade: C.

7 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:30pm

Can't do live streaming at work...and youse guys are fast.

8 Maui Girl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:38pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

No surprise there. Really? He's still talking? Is that over an hour?

9 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:38pm

Post-game? It was over before it started.

10 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:39pm

Done.

11 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:45pm

History's test...pppllwlwffftt!

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:49pm

re: #2 Occasional Reader

Post-game?!

/opens tailgate, pulls out beer cooler

We need a troll to do some proper tailgating. We need a barbecue tonight.

13 Muadib  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:03:54pm

Hopeless change for the worse.

14 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:06pm

Not bad but blaming Bush cheapened it.

15 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:07pm

Reform is the ONLY issue - Single Payer Government run healthcare should not even be entertained

16 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:09pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

They have. Even Obama mentioned that they have.

(e.g., allow interstate competition for health insurance)

17 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:26pm
18 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:29pm

re: #8 Maui Girl

No surprise there. Really? He's still talking? Is that over an hour?

Nope. Less than 50 minutes.

19 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:32pm

Ten Reasons why I'm opposed to the health care and insurance reform plans in currently in congress and proposed by the President.

10) Imagine health care provided at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

9) The current proposals include provisions for health care record keeping and IRS for determinations of income and billing within the health care bureaucracy, financial and health information all accessible at a single point.

8) Health care and insurance are not perfect, some changes are necessary to fix those areas that need improvement. Improvements do not require wholesale destruction and remaking of 17% of the country's economy.

7) We can't afford it. $9 Trillion in deficits, $45 Trillion in unfunded Medicare mandates. Do we expect with reform the Federal Government will suddenly discover fiscal responsibility?

6) The Government is already spending and consuming too much The Government Consumes 45% of the GDP, Health Care is 17% of the GDP. Having Government consume 61% of the GDP will be untenable.

5) Obtaining health insurance / health care is a private contract. It is contract with a company and or individuals, private contracts are not within the prevue of the Federal Government.

4) The Federal Government is not authorized under the laws of establishing this Constitutional Republic to meddle in the health insurance / health care market place. Health insurance / health care is not an enumerated power and belongs to the States. Pass a Constitutional Amendment to take over health care.

3) Property: Health Insurance, obtaining health care is property. I take the product of my labor and exchange it with insurance companies and health care providers for health care.

2) Liberty: How I live my life, the choices I make, especially regarding my health care are my decisions, such decisions should not be under the scrutiny of the Federal Government.

1) Life: Health care directly affects my life, the length, and quality of my life. It is not subject to governmental interference.

20 Dahveed  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:34pm

VDH says it best:

George Orwell, a man of the left, warned us that freedom and truth are not just endangered by easily identifiable goose-stepping goons in jackboots. More often he felt that state collectivism would come from an all-powerful government — run by a charismatic egalitarian, promising to protect us from selfish, greedy reactionaries.

21 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:40pm

I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.

/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.

22 ThingFish  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:45pm

re: #14 Jetpilot1101

Not bad but blaming Bush cheapened it.

totally agree

23 freedomplow  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:46pm

A little bit for everybody...

A true feel good.

24 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:50pm

re: #4 Charles

It's about to finish. Trying to stay ahead of the ball here.

There were 57 iterations of the word "I".

/Hot Air mode off.

/

25 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:50pm

ahhh - it's over.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:04:58pm

Bush. War Tax cuts. Inherit. Blah. Ted Kennedy.

27 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:04pm

re: #21 Racer X

I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.

/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.

You didn't miss anything that he didn't say over the past six months

28 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:04pm

re: #21 Racer X

I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.

/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.

"Didn't sound horrible?!?"

RINO!

29 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:10pm

If we had a nickel for every word out of his mouth, maybe then we could afford this.

/otherwise, we don't have $900 billion to spend

30 wee fury  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:12pm

President Obama is a good speaker.

31 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:22pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

Getting rid of Medicare and Medicaid would be a nice start. They're the reason healthcare costs went out of control in the first place and they are both bankrupting us now.

32 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:25pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

How about deregulation of the insurance industy? Getting rid of mandates? Malpractice reform? Tax code reform?

33 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:26pm
34 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:27pm

re: #30 wee fury

President Obama is a good speaker.

RINO!

35 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:30pm

re: #30 wee fury

President Obama is a good speaker.

Most salesmen are otherwise they don't eat

36 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:49pm

It's been fun..gotta go.

37 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:05:52pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

So how about implementing some of these alleged cost-saving measures for a year before writing checks against them? Every tax-and-spend socialist says that increases in spending will be paid for by "wringing efficiencies, cost-saving, fat-trimming", etc...

THE CAKE IS A LIE!

38 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:02pm

re: #30 wee fury

President Obama is a good speaker.

Yes, he does read a teleprompter well.

39 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:02pm

RINO RINO RINO!

Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:04pm

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

Obama, at the top of his rhetorical game, sounds great--wise, conciliatory, interested in opposing views. If only sound were substance.

But it's not. His history is that of saying something and doing the other--sometimes good, sometimes bad, but rarely does he say the thing he does, or do the thing he says. This will be no different.


I have to agree.

41 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:07pm

He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.

42 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:11pm

Evil ReThuglican Response, coming up!

43 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:12pm

Anti-Obamacare ad on Foxnews. Seemed fairly good.

44 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:14pm

re: #39 Charles

RINO RINO RINO!

Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.

45 Athos  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:23pm

re: #21 Racer X

No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.

The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.

46 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:34pm

Like I just said near the end of the last thread - I only heard a bit of it, but I could build a small island village out of all the strawmen I heard in just two short 3-minute bursts.

47 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:38pm

RINO can be a badge of honor.

48 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:49pm

re: #37 haakondahl

It would be good to see a model of the promised efficiency.

49 ladycatnip  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:56pm

Sheesh, I'm exhausted after all that live-stream and posting.

A complete and total sales job for his snake oil. Didn't buy a word of it. He's too slick.

50 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:06:57pm

re: #45 Athos

No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.

The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.

yup a real "line in the sand"

51 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:02pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

* * * *
HOPE you'll stick around for GOP's response by Dr. Boustany the heart surgeon from Louisiana.

52 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:02pm

I was happy to hear malpractice reform is on the table, because one field it impacts greatly is OB/GYNs. It's very important to keep these doctors in business. When they can't afford their malpractice insurance- they close shop, and women lose.

53 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:04pm

President Obama has a nice smile.

54 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:05pm
55 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:06pm

re: #32 Dar ul Harbarian

How about... Getting rid of mandates?

All MY dates have been with women, so I'm for it.

56 Diego  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:12pm

Here comes the GOP asshat..erm, I mean answer...

57 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:18pm

re: #41 Chekote

He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.

Ooh, what interruption?

58 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:26pm

He kept referring to this plan. What plan? There is no plan right now. Not one that stands a chance of passing.

59 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:39pm

I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.

60 ted  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:40pm

re: #41 Chekote

He started off well but lost steam as the presentation wore on. I think the unexpected interruption got him off rhythm.

Don't say that to Michelle...

61 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:07:44pm

re: #53 LSD

President Obama has a nice smile.

/the blue lips are a nice touch

62 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:00pm

re: #51 alegrias

* * * *
HOPE you'll stick around for GOP's response by Dr. Boustany the heart surgeon from Louisiana.

Where can I catch this online?

63 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:03pm

So, has he truly sold America on the need to revise health care delivery in the country, where hundreds of millions of Americans have insurance (and wont have their plans change)? Is this truly a crisis of epic proportions that we must deal with now? How are we supposed to afford this slice of heaven, where all of our fears are assuaged and any doubts sown are the result of the evil GOP (Palin or Bush, you get to choose).

Seriously?

I don't think he got it done.

64 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #39 Charles

RINO RINO RINO!

Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.

Are those Black RINOS, White RINOS, Indian RINOS, Sumatran RINOS, OR Javan RINOS?

/kidding

65 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:11pm

When do I find out if my small business is a hardship case?

I can't afford to pick up health care for everyone.

66 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:21pm

Still one major flaw. New requirements and risks to insurance companies mean higher premiums. What stops insurance companies from taking a $600 per month premium to $3000...or whatever it could be?

67 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:22pm

I don't want the gubment to get it right, I want them out of the way.

68 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:23pm

re: #52 Sharmuta

I was happy to hear malpractice reform is on the table, because one field it impacts greatly is OB/GYNs. It's very important to keep these doctors in business. When they can't afford their malpractice insurance- they close shop, and women lose.

Yes, when they can't practice their 'love' with their patients.

69 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:25pm

I thought he was awesome back in 2004 - then I listened and watched him over time ... ugh

70 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:31pm

re: #57 haakondahl


The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.

71 ladycatnip  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:32pm

#63 lawhawk

Nope. I don't think he did.

72 Athos  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:32pm

re: #63 lawhawk

Yep, it's such a crisis that the House plan doesn't kick into effect until 2013...

73 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:33pm

CBO cite... oof! That's gotta hurt.

74 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:39pm

re: #68 sngnsgt

What?

75 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:41pm

re: #56 Diego

SMACK!

76 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:46pm

re: #59 avanti

I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.

Yeah, because we all love Kennedy. Honeymoon with death is over.

77 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:08:57pm

re: #39 Charles

RINO RINO RINO!

Just getting it out of my system. Been hearing this a lot lately.

You're gonna keep ridin that one eh?

78 duck of peace  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:00pm

Once again general platitudes and sincere, if not distinct optimism carries the day. I like his speaches, but its kind of hard to get behind something that holds about as much substance as a pane of glass.

79 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:01pm

It's 9/9/09 at 9:09PM ET Ovet to you Central.

80 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:08pm

re: #68 sngnsgt

Srsly- wtf?

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:10pm

re: #70 Chekote

The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.

I don't think that was laughter.

82 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:11pm

re: #45 Athos

No it was a good stump / campaign speech. He talked about what he wanted - but at a 30,000 ft level and didn't add anything new except the vague trials to be done on malpractice insurance.

The devil is in the details - and he didn't provide any.


And that's been a problem all along...heard any senators mention cap and trade?

83 ASU86PE  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:15pm

My standard response to my Representatives:

I paid for my own appendectomy and I would do so again because I spent less on it than on all the medical coverage I would have spent prior to it and after.

I oppose mandatory coverage. I oppose no tort reform or tax reform for medical care and providers.

I did not hear how the plan will stop illegal aliens from receiving coverage.

I oppose this legislation and request that you do also.

84 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:19pm

"53 new government bureaucracies". That is a good talking point.

85 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:20pm

re: #62 haakondahl

Where can I catch this online?

* * * *
Anyone know to help haakondahl?

86 jamgarr  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:25pm

Boustany - doing good

87 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:31pm

The Republican reply is making sense so far. Not dynamic, but it's good.

88 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:36pm

He needs graphics as well as the talk

89 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:41pm

Hey Sharm, here come those Republican ideas.

90 Mike in Georgia  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:41pm

I can't spell.

91 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:41pm
92 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:43pm

re: #49 ladycatnip

Sheesh, I'm exhausted after all that live-stream and posting.

A complete and total sales job for his snake oil. Didn't buy a word of it. He's too slick.

It sure proves the eye of the beholder line. I thought is was a fine speech, but will withhold judgment until I read the compromise bill.

93 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:52pm

Hrmm - important point raised here,

It’s why so many aspiring entrepreneurs cannot afford to open a business in the first place, and why American businesses that compete internationally – like our automakers – are at a huge disadvantage. And it’s why those of us with health insurance are also paying a hidden and growing tax for those without it – about $1000 per year that pays for somebody else’s emergency room and charitable care.

One of the things that makes the table less than level when competing abroad is state supplied health care. It's a subsidy to their business' in countries with national health care systems. It's one of the weightier arguments for national health care systems. (Don't make the assumption however that I agree with it.)

94 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:53pm

At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.

95 ted  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:09:57pm

Lefties gonna go berserk...

96 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:01pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Not a promising promise of efficiencies.

97 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:01pm

re: #89 Occasional Reader

Hey Sharm, here come those Republican ideas.

Where? I need a link.

98 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:03pm

re: #91 buzzsawmonkey

I still do not see how the government deficit is going to increase if the government does not take on the expense of assuring affordable health care for everyone, and policing the non-public options.

New math

99 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:13pm

By starting late, Obama forced the GOP response into the next hour.

Probably lots of people flipping around for something to watch...

100 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:14pm

Just hit the tip jar,didn't know it was there. Thanks Charles!

101 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:18pm

Pray tell why could not these 'problems' be addressed with small incremental changes and tweakings to the existing system?

It is a symptom of big ego on the part of BHO, the Democratic party, and politicians in general that this is presented to the nation as an 'overall sweeping reform.'

And see how far that really gets us. It gets an argument and a fight.

It does not quietly result in real improvements.

That would be the mark of an effective leader.

The which we do not have right now.

102 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:19pm

Great speech - I don't buy it.

103 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:24pm

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

104 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:37pm

Grover Norquist - FOXNews.com - September 09, 2009
GROVER NORQUIST: We Don't Need Another Post Officere: #80 Sharmuta

Srsly- wtf?


Americans wanted Obama to change Washington. Obama wants to use Washington to change America

It's a quote, from W, I think.

105 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:43pm

re: #74 Sharmuta

What?

My bad, who was it that said something about OB/GYN's not being able to practice their love with their patients? I forget.

106 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:48pm

re: #70 Chekote

The laughter at the comment that illegals will not be covered. Obama seemed taken aback. Not his best speech. Thur far the speech he gave the night of the Iowa Caucus is his best.

I thought that laughter/heckling was rude, actually. He IS the President.

107 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:10:57pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

Why does it have to be paid for by the taxpayer?

108 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:00pm

re: #94 Charles

At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.

* * * *
This guy's a heart surgeon.

109 cronus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:02pm

If the notion of "death panels" is a lie (and I believe it is) than the President's assertion that the proposals his party are deficit neutral is equally untrue.

110 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:07pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

ULTRA-RINO!

111 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:07pm

Did I miss the part where the Congress and Senate will be covered under the same program? I must of cat-napped during the tort reform also.

112 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:08pm

Okay. He decided to move furniture while the guy is speaking.

113 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:14pm

re: #30 wee fury

President Obama is a good speaker.

So is Tommy Lasorda

114 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:18pm

re: #76 haakondahl

Yeah, because we all love Kennedy. Honeymoon with death is over.

You can dislike the man, but he was effective on the hill.

115 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:18pm

re: #89 Occasional Reader

Hey Sharm, here come those Republican ideas.

Indeed. And he's hitting the malpractice and buy insurance across state lines points. And he is talking about the GOP's ideas.

116 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:21pm

re: #105 sngnsgt

Well- women's health may be a joke for some people, but it's a serious issue.

117 Diego  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:31pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

Here, here. Well stated.

118 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:39pm

re: #102 Bobibutu

Great speech - I don't buy it.

Ding!

119 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:47pm

re: #105 sngnsgt

My bad, who was it that said something about OB/GYN's not being able to practice their love with their patients? I forget.

I think it was W.

120 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:51pm

re: #94 Charles

At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.

I think the rebuttal was pretty good. Showed an open spirit, etc.

121 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:11:53pm

re: #116 Sharmuta

Very serious.

122 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:00pm

re: #114 avanti

You can dislike the man, but he was effective on the hill.

Preaching to the choir

123 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:01pm

re: #110 Charles

ULTRA-RINO!

I'm an independent so does that make me an IINO?

124 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:05pm

Just turned off Fox News.

Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.

I know. I'm a RINO!

125 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:15pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

It's easy.

1. Tort reform.
2. Insurance reform. Allow people to purchase any policy that fits their needs from any company operating in the USA.
3. Government reform. Put individuals and companies on a level playing field. All medical expenses should be tax deductible, including insurance payments.

126 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:20pm

re: #94 Charles

At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.

Agreed. This guy did a decent job and he kept it short. Short, smart, and to the point is the best way to rebut.

127 Diego  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:30pm

re: #124 Charles

Good for you. Good for you.

128 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:37pm

I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.

129 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:43pm

re: #125 Wendya

So easy, even a caveman could do it?

130 duck of peace  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #124 Charles

Fox News? Who still watches cable TV?

131 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:12:45pm

re: #114 avanti

You can dislike the man, but he was effective on the hill.

And working for the wrong God-Damned team. Which is why bringing him up is not, despite what you think, an effective way to get Republicans involved.

132 OtisMyMan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:06pm

re: #44 Izzyboy

BABY WHITE RHINO!!! Racist Mothersnarfer!

133 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:11pm

I was expecting this rebuttal to be a total train wreck. I'm glad I was wrong about that.

The "cross state line" thing was shot down by Krauthammer though. Not going to work unless there is a national regulatory body, not 50 separate ones. He shouldn't have brought that up.

134 Digital Display  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:16pm

Mixed review..Some low points..The POTOS being hecked in Congress? Wierd
I don't recall even in the depths of Iraq I don't recall Bush being called a liar from the back of the room...Real class...
I'm not sure if Obama hit it out..It was up and down for me..I wonder how the Senior citizens take this...They really control this debate..
Here come the talking heads...

135 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:19pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

I was actually kinda swayed a little bit and thinking maybe Obama has a good point.

But then I read this post, and I changed my mind back.

136 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:26pm

re: #94 Charles

At least it isn't Bobby "The Exorcist" Jindal.

Now Charles, he only witnessed an exorcism. He didn't perform the exorcism. Unfortunately, he left his special exorcism hat at home.

137 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:37pm

re: #128 Coracle

I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.

Pssst. Don't tell anybody, but I thought it was a pretty good speech too. RINO.

138 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:37pm

re: #124 Charles

Just turned off Fox News.

Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.

I know. I'm a RINO!

I'm actually looking forward to hearing O'Reilly on this issue. He's sometimes wrong, but never dull.

139 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:46pm

No links? Having no luck finding

140 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:13:59pm

re: #116 Sharmuta

141 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:03pm

D@mn these threads are moving at lightening speed! Turbo hamsters are working great!

142 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:12pm

re: #137 Charles

Pssst. Don't tell anybody, but I thought it was a pretty good speech too. RINO.

Just join the independents once and for all. We could use a man like you.

143 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:15pm

re: #128 Coracle

I thought it was a great speech, and I like his plan. I think it could work.

What plan?

/where can I get a copy?

144 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:21pm
145 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:22pm

The guy who yelled "You lie!"

... was Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC), according to my colleague Patrick O'Connor.


Joe Wilson

Addison Graves Wilson, Sr., usually known as Faggy Joe Wilson (born July 31, 1947) is a Republican politician from the U.S. state of South Carolina
146 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:27pm

Does anybody know just what exactly the President was selling tonight? I know I heard a lot of promises, did you?

A good salesman sells himself first.

But then what?

"where's the beef"!

147 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:29pm

re: #141 ggt

D@mn these threads are moving at lightening speed! Turbo hamsters are working great!

Meth.

148 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:30pm

HELLAVA SPEECH! I can't say that I believe much of what he said; much of it appeared to be smoke and mirrors (won't increase the deficit "one dime"? Really?) but HELLUVA SPEECH!

And what's was that about "inheriting a $1 trillion deficit"?

149 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:32pm

re: #140 sngnsgt

Thanks.

150 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:34pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

Mixed review..Some low points..The POTOS being hecked in Congress? Wierd
I don't recall even in the depths of Iraq I don't recall Bush being called a liar from the back of the room...Real class...
I'm not sure if Obama hit it out..It was up and down for me..I wonder how the Senior citizens take this...They really control this debate..
Here come the talking heads...

Seriously. Whoever did that should be identified. That was a low-class move to heckle him.

151 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:39pm

Could Obama have gone a completely different route and achieved much of what the left intended? Absolutely.

It's called incrementalism.

Take the big problem of health care reform, and divide it up into separate issues. Allow insurance plans to be bought across state lines - see how that increases coverage and reduces costs.

By throwing everything into one basket, it sets up for a big fail, because everyone is pulling in different directions, and expectations on the left are so high that they're guaranteed to be disappointed by anything less than the whole thing - and they'll fight to get all they can to the exclusion of something less.

152 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:39pm

re: #133 ArchangelMichael

A national insurance regulatory body might be preferable to 53 other new bureaucracies.

153 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:41pm

re: #125 Wendya

It's easy.

1. Tort reform.
2. Insurance reform. Allow people to purchase any policy that fits their needs from any company operating in the USA.
3. Government reform. Put individuals and companies on a level playing field. All medical expenses should be tax deductible, including insurance payments.

Ummm he seemed to say those very things...

154 ASU86PE  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:46pm

re: #125 Wendya

That would have saved us two hours...if you had been POTUS

155 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:50pm

re: #59 avanti

I think the reference to Kennedy's working on "liberal" idea's with the right was a effective pitch to working togeather.

Gee, maybe he'll actually meet with the republicans and congress will actually have an open debate.

156 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:51pm

re: #143 Killian Bundy

What plan?

/where can I get a copy?

You're cute when you're trying to be cynical.

157 Diego  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:54pm

re: #133 ArchangelMichael

I was expecting this rebuttal to be a total train wreck. I'm glad I was wrong about that.

The "cross state line" thing was shot down by Krauthammer though. Not going to work unless there is a national regulatory body, not 50 separate ones. He shouldn't have brought that up.

It was by a BIRTHER who's been sued for malpractice 3 times and tried to buy a lordship in a scam. YOU CAN'T BUY A LORDSHIP! lol

158 Idle Drifter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:55pm

re: #37 haakondahl

Did someone say the "Cake is a lie!"?

159 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:14:58pm

re: #146 The Shadow Do

Does anybody know just what exactly the President was selling tonight? I know I heard a lot of promises, did you?

A good salesman sells himself first.

But then what?

"where's the beef"!

Selling government control of your life is not an easy product to convince you to buy

160 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:04pm

re: #119 haakondahl

I think it was W.

Yup, posted the video. That's what I was referring to...

161 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:06pm

Obama needs to stop the sob stories and provide details on how his plan is going to achieve his outlined goals.

162 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:08pm

We don't live in America any more. We all live in a ward of Chicago.

163 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:08pm

Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:10pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

The guy who yelled "You lie!"

That's what they said on CSpan as well.

Classy.

165 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:13pm

I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".

I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.

What does that make me?

166 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:17pm

re: #139 haakondahl

No links? Having no luck finding

* * * *
Dr. Boustany's GOP response to the President's Address speech is over but perhaps you can google it or check the GOP's website. Sorry I don't have this info for you.

167 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:28pm

re: #61 Killian Bundy

/the blue lips are a nice touch

It shows he a "cold hard realist" :)

168 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:44pm

re: #165 Mr Pancakes

I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".

I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.

What does that make me?

A ... rational person?

169 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:51pm

re: #165 Mr Pancakes

I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".

I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.

What does that make me?

A delicious stack of pancakes?

170 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:52pm

re: #124 Charles

Just turned off Fox News.

Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.

I know. I'm a RINO!

I have to watch it. If the whole panel does not hate the speech, it's a slam dunk.

171 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:53pm

There is no plan. There is no consensus. He really set himself up by saying that he would not sign anything that raises the deficit. Held true to his word, that means he couldn't ever sign anything that comes out of Congress. Ever.

172 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:15:56pm

re: #137 Charles

re: #128 Coracle


Pssst. Don't tell anybody, but I thought it was a pretty good speech too. RINO.

Oh, I thought it was a great political speech.

/operative word is "political" ... I'll wait to see the beef

173 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:02pm

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

When Obama said he'd just received a letter from Ted Kennedy, I figured it was the Postal Service's dilatory delivery--which is not a great argument for government-run healthcare.

** * * *
You so wicked! Wicked funny & right on.

174 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:03pm

The interesting thing about the speech is how it was laid out. A challenge to congress, shout outs and beat downs to both sides. I think what this also does is allow him to say "See I tried" if congress fails him.
I am wagering this will not pass if at all until late in year, and if it does it will be vastly different and diminished from the start point.

It also sets up a "we tried for health care, but those evil R's stopped us" meme for next year's election cycle if it doesn't pass.

175 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:04pm

I was not convinced.

176 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:09pm

re: #124 Charles

Just turned off Fox News.

Not interested in their O'Reilly panel.

I know. I'm a RINO!

Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.

177 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:10pm

re: #129 Sharmuta

So easy, even a caveman could do it?

We know what the problem is.

Getting congress to fix it for us instead of imposing more problems on us is the issue.

178 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:11pm

re: #151 lawhawk

Big ego. Big basket.

179 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:13pm

One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen

180 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:13pm

re: #135 Racer X

I was actually kinda swayed a little bit and thinking maybe Obama has a good point.

But then I read this post, and I changed my mind back.

How is that?

181 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:28pm

re: #176 jorline

Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.

No thanks. Not interested in that either.

182 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:31pm

re: #153 LudwigVanQuixote

Ummm he seemed to say those very things...

Were you listening to the same speech?

183 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:35pm

re: #163 Izzyboy

Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.

Heard it with my own ears- took him back a bit.

184 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:39pm

re: #165 Mr Pancakes

Well I don't know, but I do know there are too many labels out there.

185 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:40pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.

186 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:44pm

re: #179 DrNaughty

One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen

Except thad he did.

187 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:44pm

re: #179 DrNaughty

One has to notice that obama made no mention of the public reaction last month to the Town meetings held by congressmen

And that might be a benefit to the gop, actually.

188 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:16:46pm

re: #21 Racer X

I heard only a portion of the speech. Didn't sound horrible.

/but then again I am not delusional enough to think politicians don't lie.

It wasn't horrible. Stunning- he removed any hint of saying the words "public option".

He's a good speaker, he moved to the middle with a wink to the left.
I doubt he really understands what choice and competition and free markets are.

I personally do not truth him or the progressives who want to make this about taxing one sector to pay for another. But clearly the American people do not want his original version of government run health care - and he caves somewhat.

189 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:13pm

re: #168 Charles

A ... rational person?

I like that better than RINO... thanks!

4 year wait though... damn.

190 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:15pm

re: #157 Diego

I made no judgement on the person, simply what was said. I was expecting him to come out and say a bunch of asinine things ala Bobby Jindal. He didn't other than 1 point.

191 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:17pm

re: #150 Gus 802

Seriously. Whoever did that should be identified. That was a low-class move to heckle him.

* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?

192 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:24pm

I want to see the bill.

See if rhetoric matches the text.

HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.

193 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:25pm

re: #176 jorline

Ahh yes, Mr Tingly-pants himself!

194 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:38pm

Regardless of your position on the content of the speech, the President showed tonight that he can deliver a speech with clarity and passion. If anything this will put to sleep the teleprompter talking point once and for all.


I am confident I have finally earned my first downdings with this comment
/

195 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:44pm

re: #181 Charles

No thanks. Not interested in that either.

RINO!!!


Oh, wait...

196 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:50pm

truth = trust

197 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:17:57pm

re: #182 Wendya

Were you listening to the same speech?

Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?

What was that about cutting wasteful spending?

What was that about tort reform?

198 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:01pm

re: #56 Diego

Here comes the GOP asshat..erm, I mean answer...

Must...resist...downdinging...

199 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:09pm

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

Obama, at the top of his rhetorical game, sounds great--wise, conciliatory, interested in opposing views. If only sound were substance.

But it's not. His history is that of saying something and doing the other--sometimes good, sometimes bad, but rarely does he say the thing he does, or do the thing he says. This will be no different.

Now there's a first. A president "saying something and doing the other." First time in American history.

200 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:19pm

re: #191 alegrias

* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?

Shouting during a President's speech is disrespectful and obnoxious. You can pick a more effective time to show your patriotism.

201 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:19pm

It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"

And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.

202 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:21pm

Okay, let's say you like everything Obama said he'd do. Why in hell would you believe him?

203 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:22pm

re: #165 Mr Pancakes

I'm self employed and uninsured. I'm a conservative, and not a big fan of the "O".

I liked his speech tonight... I hope he pulls it off.

What does that make me?

A guy hoping for free health care?

204 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:25pm
205 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:37pm

re: #192 jcm

I want to see the bill.

See if rhetoric matches the text.

HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.

So true.

206 Athos  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:42pm

re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, what was that about tort reform? Recall any specifics?

207 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:44pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.

Again? We had you back? You must have crept back in while we were all sleeping.

208 Digital Display  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:45pm

Rove is on Fox

209 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:18:51pm

re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?

What was that about cutting wasteful spending?

What was that about tort reform?

It's called a bullshit lie.

210 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:06pm

re: #168 Charles

A ... rational person?

So only irrational people oppose ObamaCare? Really?

211 Electron Shuffler  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:08pm

I was not watching or listening.
Seems to be another sales pitch to me.
From what I've read here.
All huff and puff. I'll wait and see.

212 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:13pm

re: #163 Izzyboy

Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.

That crap is uncalled for and rude before a Joint Session of Congress. That said, I think we need an American versions of "Questions for the Prime Minister".

213 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:19pm

It all comes down to specifics.

i like what Obama said.

I did not see those things in the different bills running around the halls of congress.

When did barney frank sign off on tort reform?

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:22pm

re: #191 alegrias

* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?

You seriously think that was ever applied to members of the Legislature yelling 'you lie' at the President on the floor of the House, or should have been?

215 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:23pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.

Dramatic.

216 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:29pm

re: #163 Izzyboy

Wow, someone yelled "liar!" in a session of Congress.

And that was a Dem?

The GOP is turning into mean school kids... It will ultimately backfire.

217 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:29pm
218 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:30pm

re: #191 alegrias

* * * *
What happened to "dissent is patriotic"?

I don't know. What happened to it? That's not the issue. The issue is that it happened in a televised joint session of congress.

219 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:31pm

re: #201 Charles

It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"

And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.

Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.

220 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:42pm

re: #192 jcm

I want to see the bill.

See if rhetoric matches the text.

HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.

Same here - makes it hard to believe what he says - reenforces distrust.

221 duck of peace  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #212 MacDuff

Exactly!

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:46pm

re: #192 jcm

I want to see the bill.

See if rhetoric matches the text.

HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.

What's changed?

223 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:49pm

re: #194 Reginald Perrin

Regardless of your position on the content of the speech, the President showed tonight that he can deliver a speech with clarity and passion. If anything this will put to sleep the teleprompter talking point once and for all.

I am confident I have finally earned my first downdings with this comment
/

He was using a teleprompter.

224 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:51pm

re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's called a bullshit lie.

Right because it could not be anything else. Unbelievable.

225 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:57pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

The guy who yelled "You lie!"

I was scolded for pointing out that sort of heckling, was it common when Bush spoke ? Not being a smart ass, I may have just missed it. The cheer/boo thing I get is common enough, but the liar and the "what bill?" sign was new if I recall.

226 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:19:59pm

re: #210 Occasional Reader

Oh ferpetessake.

227 badtemper  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:01pm

To all fans of the speech tonight: Please remember who he is and what he represents. I always try to judge a person by their actions, not their words.

Inspirational speech? Maybe.

But so far, I'm not impressed.

228 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:08pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.

I don't think they ever did.

229 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:24pm

re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?

What was that about cutting wasteful spending?

What was that about tort reform?

Talk is cheap.

/let's see it on paper

230 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:25pm

re: #189 Mr Pancakes

I like that better than RINO... thanks!

4 year wait though... damn.

Just in time the the next election...who would have thought.

231 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:32pm

re: #176 jorline

Flip it to MSNBC and watch the Mathews and Olbermann circle jerk.

No thanks. I don't enjoy leg tingles.

232 Electron Shuffler  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:36pm

I was not watching or listening.
What was Nancy's blink rate?

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:39pm

re: #225 avanti

I was scolded for pointing out that sort of heckling, was it common when Bush spoke ? Not being a smart ass, I may have just missed it. The cheer/boo thing I get is common enough, but the liar and the "what bill?" sign was new if I recall.

I don't recall it either.

234 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:45pm

re: #228 Charles

I don't think they ever did.

Maybe because he didn't?

235 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:45pm

re: #224 Coracle

Right because it could not be anything else. Unbelievable.

Your right. The government is so good at...

236 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:20:51pm

re: #213 karmic_inquisitor

It all comes down to specifics.

i like what Obama said.

I did not see those things in the different bills running around the halls of congress.

When did barney frank sign off on tort reform?

Obama didn't sign off on tort reform. He danced around the issue.

237 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:12pm

re: #210 Occasional Reader

So only irrational people oppose ObamaCare? Really?

Come on, man. You're better than that. You know that's not what I said or even implied.

238 Tarkus289  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:15pm

Maybe Bush never lied, (in an address)

239 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:20pm

re: #180 LudwigVanQuixote

How is that?

The spittle was flying all over the place. "Parasites"; "Fat Cats"; "Profits".

Sheesh.

I honestly liked the speech. I'm leaning towards giving Obama a chance at this one.

One big question:

WHAT HAPPENS IF IT FAILS TO LOWER COSTS, AND ACTUALLY RAISES HEALTH CARE COSTS FOR EVERYONE? WHAT IF OUR TAXES GET RAISED EVEN HIGHER TO PAY FOR THIS?

What do we do then? Can we go back to private? Or will it be way too late to go back?

240 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:20pm

re: #183 Bobibutu

Heard it with my own ears- took him back a bit.

How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/

241 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:24pm

re: #201 Charles

Agreed. But I must admit is was fun to see Pelosi's face.

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:26pm

re: #192 jcm

I want to see the bill.

See if rhetoric matches the text.

HR3200 and what the speech was about are very, very different.

I agree.

(After listening to the speech, I now need an antidote. Perhaps I'll go watch a movie. Yeah, Yojimbo would work just FINE!)

243 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:32pm

re: #228 Charles

In the run up to the Civil War there were beatings on the floor of congress, beatings from one member upon another.

244 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:35pm

I would rate the speech in the range of effective to highly effective. (I know... RINO!) That said, the devil is always in the details red dress behind him...

245 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:41pm

Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.

246 media_man  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:48pm

Obama glossed over the concerns of most Americans by calling is dupes and liars. I don't think he helped his cause, rather he came off as offended that anyone could dare disagree with him.

He called people who say he will form death panels as shameless and then went into detail about how he's going to pay for all of this by cutting waste in Medicare. What is waste in Medicare? Paying for heart operations for 80 somethings? Advanced cancer drugs for seniors (but only work 25% of the time)? Call these panels whatever you like, they will be making life & death decisions, & if you don't like it, tough. It will be the only game in town (after Obama destroys private insurance).

247 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:21:51pm
248 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:18pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.

But protestors did it, which is the same as a member of Congress doing it, so Mr. Wilson is just paying the Democrats back.

///

249 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:22pm

He pressed the reset button. Now show me the money.

250 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:31pm

re: #240 avanti

How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/

Uncool.

251 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:33pm

And the president did give a good speech. When he's in that sort of set-piece situation, Barack Obama always does well. In a fluid situation, not so much.

252 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:37pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.

They didn't. They generally sat stone faced or with the look of a child pouting through all of GWBs speeches. Sometimes there were some muffled boos.

253 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:40pm

re: #240 avanti

How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/

very un-classy. he let his audience handle it. They did.

254 bushleague  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:45pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.

255 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:22:45pm

re: #240 avanti

How cool would it have been for him to yell back "asshole"/

This is quotable.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:00pm

re: #223 Wendya

He was using a teleprompter.

Who doesn't? Seriously, for something like this?

257 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:04pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

I agree that folks have an obligation to lend a hand to those less fortunate than we are. I think the decision as to when and how much lies best with each person, not the government.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

also agree our system is flawed. I do not trust that this plan under this Congress is the proper "fix" for those flaws. I also think there are problems than can be alleviated now, without having to wait four years. And I am amazed at being told that this plan will not be in place for another 4 years, after being told that it is so critically important to "fix" our system we should have just sat back an allowed the proposed bill to go through without anyone even reading it.

258 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:08pm

re: #236 Wendya

Obama didn't sign off on tort reform. He danced around the issue.

You don't think a Democrat opening the door isn't a good enough start? He has to walk through it without any plan? Nice.

259 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:11pm

re: #223 Wendya

Of course he was using a teleprompter...but he was delivering the speech with passion and was not just fumbling through it by reading the words from on the screen. He wasn't an empty suit tonight.

260 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:14pm

How much has he cut in Medicare? What's been stopping him from doing that?

261 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:16pm

re: #246 media_man

I don't think he came off offended. He can off unsure of himself. This guys is in over his head. That's why he keeps farming stuff over to Pelosi. All he knows to do is talk. That's all he has done all his life.

262 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:23pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

I don't think anyone is oppossed to reform of some sort. It's the method on which we disagree.

It seems that the insurance (risk management) model isn't working. It is not designed to work for the entire population. That would be something more akin to mom and dad's checkbook. I don't think we want the goverment to be that either. I don't know the answer. I don't think there is one.

The bottom line is that health care is a black hole. It will always cost money, more and more money. It's not like roads or bridges --once built the major cost are over --general upkeep and in a few years you have to build/rebuild. Health costs are constant and ever growing.

263 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:25pm
264 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:31pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

I really don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Not sure if it's unprecedented but it just shows what the GOP is all about in this debate. They've lost me.

*burppp*

265 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:33pm

re: #216 LudwigVanQuixote


What the GOP Rep did was uncalled for. It wasn't the time or place to do it - period.

Ummm.. .as opposed to Democrats calling for articles of impeachment with President Bush over a policy dispute? Sorry, but the fact is that both parties are so far down in the gutter that to claim that one side has a corner on high mindedness is obscene. Oh, and those Democrats who were screaming impeachment, and looking the other way as their supporters went troofer, are now the folks in power.

266 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:35pm

re: #237 Charles

Come on, man. You're better than that. You know that's not what I said or even implied.

Then I need it 'splained. I find the idea that "I liked Obama's speech and I hope he pulls it off" is a needed qualification to being "a rational person"... surprising.

267 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:23:51pm

Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?

268 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:00pm

I liked the part where Obama demagogued the Republicans on a variety of issues and strawmen, then turned and lamented the demagoguery of the Republicans on the Medicare issue.

269 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:08pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

And the president did give a good speech. When he's in that sort of set-piece situation, Barack Obama always does well. In a fluid situation, not so much.

I agree that as speech-making, it was good.

270 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:14pm

Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?

271 sagehen  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:23pm

re: #157 Diego

It was by a BIRTHER who's been sued for malpractice 3 times and tried to buy a lordship in a scam. YOU CAN'T BUY A LORDSHIP! lol

Actually, you can.

Sometimes the title is attached to a piece of land; buy the property, you get the title.

272 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:23pm

"You like our Medicare - we are just gonna give everyone a little more."

Thanks daddy!

273 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:24pm

re: #257 reine.de.tout

That's a good point, Reine. Some people can't wait 4 years.

274 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:29pm

re: #246 media_man

You really weren't listening, were you.

275 Arby Dwiar  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:31pm

re: #19 jcm

Thanks.

276 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:32pm

Why can't he start fighting Medicare fraud now? Isn't illegal now?

277 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:34pm

re: #267 haakondahl

Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?

Why doesn't he enact policies to root out the graft now ?

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:34pm

re: #243 Ojoe

In the run up to the Civil War there were beatings on the floor of congress, beatings from one member upon another.

I would just as soon not have those days return. The beatings or the Civil War, one.

279 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:45pm

re: #254 bushleague

Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.

Then you are in the minority. As someone with seven relatives who are all practicing MD's, I have heard more horror stories about the insurance system in this nation than I can easily count.

280 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:47pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.

Somebody find Killgore a BIGGER brush.

281 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:53pm

I was not Wow'd by the speech. There was nothing new in it that I noticed. It was the same old argument in front of a big audience.

The thing that scares me is giving the government some control of a large part of the economy. After seeing how bad the clunker program went I can't imagine them running health care.

282 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:54pm

re: #256 SanFranciscoZionist

Who doesn't? Seriously, for something like this?

Exactly. So this hardly serves as proof that he is not TP-dependent.

283 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:24:56pm

re: #267 haakondahl

Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?

And perpetual motion adheres to the laws of physics.

284 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:01pm

re: #263 buzzsawmonkey

The fluid situation begins immediately after the speech echoes die away.

You should have gone before we left the house.

285 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:02pm

re: #266 Occasional Reader

Then I need it 'splained.

I'll get right on it.

286 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:03pm

So What Is The Freaking Plan?

287 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm

Ok...I'm for healthcare reform...as long as it can be put in a bill of 30 pages or less...without the need of a lawyer/lexicographer to translate it.

288 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm

Previous worse behavior in congress:

On the morning of May 21, Preston Brooks arrived at the Capitol, carrying a walking stick. He hoped to attack Sumner, but did not locate him.

The following day, May 22, proved fateful. After trying to find Sumner outside the Capitol, Brooks entered the building and walked into the Senate chamber. Sumner sat at his desk, writing letters.

Violence on the Floor of the Senate

Brooks hesitated before approaching Sumner, as several women were present in the Senate gallery. After the women left, Brooks walked to Sumner’s desk, and reportedly said: “You have libeled my state and slandered my relation, who is aged and absent. And I feel it to be my duty to punish you.”

With that, Brooks struck the seated Sumner across the head with his heavy cane. Sumner, who was quite tall, could not get to his feet as his legs were trapped under his Senate desk, which was bolted to the floor. Brooks continued raining blows with the cane upon Sumner, who tried to fend them off with his arms. Sumner finally was able to break the desk free with his thighs, and staggered down the aisle of the Senate.

Brooks followed him, breaking the cane over Sumner’s head and continuing to strike him with pieces of the cane. The entire attack probably lasted for a full minute, and left Sumner dazed and bleeding. Carried into a Capitol anteroom, Sumner was attended by a doctor, who administered stitches to close wounds on his head.

Brooks was soon arrested on a charge of assault, and was quickly released on bail.
Link

289 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:04pm

re: #267 haakondahl

Who here believes that the claimed "savings" in health care will not result in a reduction in services?

Me.

290 TMF  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:07pm

I like the fact that someone screamed "liar"

Maybe it will draw the average viewers attention to the fact that Obama is, for the most part, LYING

291 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:14pm

He can show us in the next four years about how he can save all that money.

292 huckfunn  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:15pm

re: #249 karmic_inquisitor

He pressed the reset button. Now show me the money.

He'll show you the borrowed, printed money on which the next 3 generations will have to service the debt.

293 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:17pm

If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.

294 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:17pm

Can someone tell me where his PLAN is posted.

295 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:19pm

One partial solution would be to allow insurance companies to sell policies across state lines.

We also need to look at letting people purchase 'catastrophic only' coverage. My car insurance doesn't cover oil changes or new tires, so why should health insurance cover every sore throat? Tort reform is badly needed. Competition needs to be opened up.

And if pre-existing conditions have to be covered, can I hold off on buying the comp/collision coverage for my car until after an accident?

Say 'No' to Obamacare! Say 'Yes' to reform.

296 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:20pm

re: #270 The Curmudgeon

Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?

Well, apparently Killgore Trout switched parties because of it.

297 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:27pm
298 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:31pm

re: #265 lawhawk

What the GOP Rep did was uncalled for. It wasn't the time or place to do it - period.

Ummm.. .as opposed to Democrats calling for articles of impeachment with President Bush over a policy dispute? Sorry, but the fact is that both parties are so far down in the gutter that to claim that one side has a corner on high mindedness is obscene. Oh, and those Democrats who were screaming impeachment, and looking the other way as their supporters went troofer, are now the folks in power.

Thank you!

299 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:49pm

re: #232 Electron Shuffler

I was not watching or listening.
What was Nancy's blink rate?

Not bad, I think she had an injection of lidocaine in her eyelids prior to the speech to avoid seizures in epileptics in the audience.

(FYI I have seizures, so don't give me crap about being uncharitable, OK?)

300 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:25:54pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.

Because that dosen't lead to government control of your life

301 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:02pm

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

302 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:18pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

Congratulations, Republicans. You may have achieved a new low in tonight's speech. Good luck with that.

How so?

303 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:19pm

re: #277 DrNaughty

Why doesn't he enact policies to root out the graft now ?

re: #37 haakondahl

So how about implementing some of these alleged cost-saving measures for a year before writing checks against them? Every tax-and-spend socialist says that increases in spending will be paid for by "wringing efficiencies, cost-saving, fat-trimming", etc...

THE CAKE IS A LIE!

304 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:25pm

re: #301 Occasional Reader

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

profits are a bad thing to a leftist

305 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:32pm

re: #246 media_man

and just as soon as they are formed someone's going to put Sarah's son in front of one of those death panels so they can send him to the fema death camp for the elderly...

//

306 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:36pm

re: #296 haakondahl

Well, apparently Killgore Trout switched parties because of it.

no one switched...these types of speeches only re-enforces what you already think of him.

307 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:41pm

re: #257 reine.de.tout

also agree our system is flawed. I do not trust that this plan under this Congress is the proper "fix" for those flaws. I also think there are problems than can be alleviated now, without having to wait four years. And I am amazed at being told that this plan will not be in place for another 4 years, after being told that it is so critically important to "fix" our system we should have just sat back an allowed the proposed bill to go through without anyone even reading it.

You can't have it both ways.

He has proposed emergency measures soonest - like McCain's idea for those with pre-existing conditions, and a panel of actual health experts to do it right. I am all for the idea of having non-partisan experts (who actually know what they are talking abu0t) do the thinking on this. Call that elitist.

308 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:44pm

re: #253 Bobibutu

very un-classy. he let his audience handle it. They did.

It was a sarcastic joke, even though I'm sure the thought crossed Obama mind,

309 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:45pm
310 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:50pm

Well, at least they'll never get the "public option" through the Senate.

/that's a start

311 media_man  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:50pm

re: #270 The Curmudgeon

No. Hell no.

312 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:53pm

"I didn't get a harumph outa that guy!"

313 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:26:55pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Did they do it? I can't recall a Dem politician interrupting a Bush speech by screaming liar.

They just threw their shoes at him.
//

314 wee fury  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:02pm

The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.

315 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:09pm

re: #294 Kilroy

Can someone tell me where his PLAN is posted.

Give them a couple of days to come up with something. Really, it's too much you ask.

316 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:25pm

I'm going to step back for a few minutes. I need to eat and things are moving too fast right now to post and eat at the same time.

317 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:40pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.

He said that was one of the immediate action items to be pushed through and gave McCain props for it.

318 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:41pm

re: #301 Occasional Reader

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

Profits at the cost of care? Insurance companies do have a fine line to walk. Is there nothing wrong with reminding - and making - them take that balance seriously?

319 Bubbaman  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:43pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

OK, I'll buy some of your points, but here's where we depart. Our medical "system" as you call it is rife with flaws, but what is the overreaching imperative for a massive recreation of a system that most people are happy with? Why didn't the administration choose to figure out a way to provide health care for the "uninsured" rather than trying to create a nationalized health system? Why are we focusing solely on the health care system and not other equally important sectors, namely our failing legal system, deteriorating infrastructure, struggling education systems, etc.? And if health care is so important (and I personally think it is), then why should we ramrod a bill through Congress in a minimal amount of time and without significant scrutiny?

I don't think anyone would take exception with holding people accountable, but this doesn't even occur in our own government. Now you expect them to make fat cats accountable?

With respect to making the health care market competitive, that's the exact solution that many free market thinkers believe will be the ultimate solution. Open the health care insurance market across the country, make companies compete for business the way auto insurance companies do. Obama has never advocated free market solutions and in fact has stated that he favors a single payer system, i.e. government health care.

I agree with your other premises.

320 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:43pm

Obama is all about speeches, and this was a good one.
There's still a lot of glaring holes in the *plan*.
But the basic humanistic premises are undeniable.

321 Silvergirl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:27:46pm

re: #19 jcm

Ten Reasons why I'm opposed to the health care and insurance reform plans in currently in congress and proposed by the President.

You're just from that big fat Party of No.

/

322 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:05pm

re: #288 Ojoe

“You have libeled my state"

We need more of these kinds of politicians, who care about their constituents.

323 Athos  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:08pm

re: #314 wee fury

I hope his constituients remind him of that next November.
If he were my Congressman, he would no longer get my vote or support.

324 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:09pm

re: #314 wee fury

The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.

I completely agree.

325 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:11pm

re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote

He said that was one of the immediate action items to be pushed through and gave McCain props for it.

Thanks- I missed about half the speech.

326 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:18pm

re: #290 TMF

I like the fact that someone screamed "liar"

Maybe it will draw the average viewers attention to the fact that Obama is, for the most part, LYING

It was inappropriate. But a powerful political statement that may well do just that..

327 bushleague  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:19pm

re: #314 wee fury

The 'liar' shout-out was unprofessional. Whoever did it belongs in a beer joint -- not at the United States Capital.

How can you tell them apart? (Kennedy constituent checking in...)

328 Digital Display  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:22pm

After the Talking heads..I still have mixed reviews about the effectness..Like Rove said he was good in the beginning and good at the end...
I still feel the seniors will drive this debate...In 48 hours we will see what happens..

329 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:24pm

re: #295 right_wing2

We also need to look at letting people purchase 'catastrophic only' coverage. My car insurance doesn't cover oil changes or new tires, so why should health insurance cover every sore throat?

This is what I've been saying for years. No one wants to hear it. Car insurance would cost about 10 to 15 times higher a year too if you were going to use it for everything that goes wrong with your car including preventative maintenance.

330 sagehen  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:27pm

re: #200 Coracle

Shouting during a President's speech is disrespectful and obnoxious. You can pick a more effective time to show your patriotism.

I'd also hope to see better behavior from members of Congress than some random constituent...

331 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:33pm

re: #270 The Curmudgeon

Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?

Not really. I still think it's a pile of small problems that add up to a big mess. The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.

332 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:34pm

re: #310 Killian Bundy

Well, at least they'll never get the "public option" through the Senate.

/that's a start

In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.

How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?

Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.

333 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:40pm

re: #301 Occasional Reader

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

That's because profit is the spawn of Satan.

334 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:44pm

re: #320 captdiggs

Obama is all about speeches, and this was a good one.
There's still a lot of glaring holes in the *plan*.
But the basic humanistic premises are undeniable.

What we will see is a 2 or 3 day bounce of support with a MASSIVE leftist push for this plan.

By this time next week I suspect we an put a fork in it.

335 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:44pm

re: #282 haakondahl

Exactly. So this hardly serves as proof that he is not TP-dependent.

I wasn't looking for any. The TOTUS is not significant, as far as I'm concerned.

336 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:47pm

re: #301 Occasional Reader

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

Yes--socialists do not believe that the way to make a money program go is by hooking a money engine up to it. They have rather a more religious than scientific belief about all of this, wherein money is simply created by government.

337 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:49pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

I never heard of a 4 year wait. Most of the time is about 6 months. If they can't deny immediate coverage for pre-existing conditions, then how do you stop people from waiting until sick to buy insurance and dropping it after they don't need it anymore. So you make it mandatory and then you are faced with the problem of how do you enforce it.

338 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:28:54pm

re: #318 Coracle

Profits at the cost of care? Insurance companies do have a fine line to walk. Is there nothing wrong with reminding - and making - them take that balance seriously?

See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.

339 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:27pm

David Axelrod, the President's Chicago man, is on with Bill O'Reilly on Fox News Cable.

340 Athos  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:28pm

re: #333 MacDuff

re: #301 Occasional Reader


That's because profit is the spawn of Satan.

Is that the meme this week? Last week Cheney was the spawn of Satan. I need to get an updated playbook.

341 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:30pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

If I were to have a pre-existing condition, I'd have to wait 4 years for help. I don't know why they can't fix that now.

Cause we don't have any silver bullets!

/

342 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:34pm

re: #334 DrNaughty

What we will see is a 2 or 3 day bounce of support with a MASSIVE leftist push for this plan.

By this time next week I suspect we an put a fork in it.

I don't see the far left getting too excited about this.

343 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:39pm

re: #321 Silvergirl

You're just from that big fat Party of No.

/

JCM IS A SCREAMING REPUBLICAN WITH NO IDEAS!

344 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:41pm

Medical savings accts and catastrophic coverage.

345 arethusa  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:41pm

re: #301 Occasional Reader

I did notice the continual demonizing of "profits" in the speech. Interesting.

And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.

346 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:29:56pm

Really, he kept talking about his plan;great speech but I'd like to read the plan.

347 TMF  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:01pm

"Deficit neutral"? Is he for real? Three letters: CBO

"YOu get to keep your insurance" Really? IF a public option is established my employer is going to continue to pay a portion of my premiums? Really?

GOt any more bridges you want to sell me?

348 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:02pm

re: #270 The Curmudgeon

Anyone here change mind as a result of the speech?

Yeah, actually. I changed from "can't be done" to "could be worked".

349 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:02pm

re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, what was this about having a market for the companies to compete in for the consumers?

What was that about cutting wasteful spending?

What was that about tort reform?

Gee, I guess you missed the part about everyone having to purchase comprehensive insurance that provided free checkups and mammograms at no additional cost. That is not choice. That is not what I want.

Obama sticks to the employer responsibility bullshit, one of the major problems we have today. Employers get a break for paying the majority of their employees insurance. Obama wants to make it mandatory. People ought to purchase their own insurance and get the tax breaks. No medical expenses should ever be taxed but Obama didn't address that either.

And what about tort reform? Did you not notice that Obama cleverly steered away from actual tort reform? Instead he went after doctors for practicing defensive medicine and medical malpractice insurance. The lawyers got a free ride.

350 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:03pm

re: #307 LudwigVanQuixote

You can't have it both ways.

He has proposed emergency measures soonest - like McCain's idea for those with pre-existing conditions, and a panel of actual health experts to do it right. I am all for the idea of having non-partisan experts (who actually know what they are talking abu0t) do the thinking on this. Call that elitist.

LVQ - the four year timing means this will be effective after the next election. That timing is not accidental.

351 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:06pm

re: #321 Silvergirl

You're just from that big fat Party of No.

/

That's me, bitter clingly no'er.

352 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:16pm

re: #338 Occasional Reader

See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.

Capitalista!

353 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:20pm

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

354 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:21pm

ahem
*Palatable*

355 baier  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:26pm

Not bad, needs a great deal of work though. I don't believe for a minute that only 5% of the nation will be on GovCare. It would be higher...much higher.

356 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:27pm

re: #332 FrogMarch

In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.

How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?

Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.

From the Labor Day speech:
“I continue to believe that a public option within the basket of insurance choices would help improve quality and bring down costs.”

357 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:27pm

re: #331 Thanos

The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.

That's far too rational. We're talking about Congress.

358 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:30pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

The guy who yelled "You lie!"

He's already been Wiki'd on this:

Obama's healthcare speech to Congress

During a September 9th 2009 speech to Congress by President Obama, Wilson created controvery by calling out "You lie!" as Obama said there was no coverage for illegal immigrants in his healthcare plan. However, section 246 of the bill HR3200 is entitled "No Federal Payment for Undocumented Aliens" and states that no funds will be spent to cover illegal immigrants.

I know that'll make the Vdare people happy.

359 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:30pm

re: #335 SanFranciscoZionist

I wasn't looking for any. The TOTUS is not significant, as far as I'm concerned.

Argh! You don't even know what you're responding to. Chase the refs if you like.

360 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:33pm

re: #340 Athos

Is that the meme this week? Last week Cheney was the spawn of Satan. I need to get an updated playbook.

Satan gets around. I mean... he's Satan, ferpetesake, of course he does.

361 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:39pm

re: #343 haakondahl

JCM IS A SCREAMING REPUBLICAN WITH NO IDEAS!

Dang, busted!

362 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:39pm

Obama gave pretty short shrift to liability reform. Not good.

363 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:48pm

Axlerod debating Rove..

364 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:30:49pm

re: #328 HoosierHoops

After the Talking heads..I still have mixed reviews about the effectness..Like Rove said he was good in the beginning and good at the end...
I still feel the seniors will drive this debate...In 48 hours we will see what happens..

Yes, a compromise bill is being worked on this week, you heard some of the idea's tonight, I expect we'll see details next week.

365 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:07pm

re: #344 JohnH

Medical savings accts and catastrophic coverage.

* * * *
Dems want to discontinue Health Savings Accounts with High Deductible insurance.

Can't have something that reduces costs!

366 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:07pm
367 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:10pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.

Much much better.

368 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:15pm

re: #341 SummerSong

Cause we don't have any silver bullets!

/

Hell, Hoss. We kin fix that! Got us a Suds & Duds right down the road!

369 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:16pm

Yojimbo, here I come.

Good night, all.

370 Bubbaman  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:20pm

re: #254 bushleague

Really? As someone within an HMO that exists solely to serve medicaid members I can say with authority you are talking out your ass. We operate one a 1.5% profit margin without a "fatcat" in sight.

You make a very compelling point and in fact most health care facilities operate on razor thin margins that would be unsustainable in the business world. Most companies shoot for margins in the neighborhood in the teens while most health care companies are doing well if they are in the black by a percent or two.

371 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:27pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

Yeah. Aren't insurance companies great? I just laugh when people "suck up" about insurance companies.

372 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:30pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

They can be attacked. Federal Government cannnot.

373 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:38pm

re: #366 buzzsawmonkey

I still remain astounded at how many of the people who objected to the possibility that the government might look at their library records are willing to give the government their medical records, tied up with Christmas ribbon.

Consider the source

374 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:45pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

I think that the companies that provide pretty much everything that keep me fed, clothed, sheltered, and comfortable, are for-profit enterprises.

375 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:49pm

re: #239 Racer X

The spittle was flying all over the place. "Parasites"; "Fat Cats"; "Profits".

Sheesh.

I honestly liked the speech. I'm leaning towards giving Obama a chance at this one.

One big question:

WHAT HAPPENS IF IT FAILS TO LOWER COSTS, AND ACTUALLY RAISES HEALTH CARE COSTS FOR EVERYONE? WHAT IF OUR TAXES GET RAISED EVEN HIGHER TO PAY FOR THIS?

What do we do then? Can we go back to private? Or will it be way too late to go back?

Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?

376 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:31:52pm

re: #367 JohnH

Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.

Much much better.

And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.

377 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #339 alegrias

David Axelrod, the President's Chicago man, is on with Bill O'Reilly on Fox News Cable.

Talking about "death panels".

/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?

378 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:03pm

re: #338 Occasional Reader

See, I have this funny idea that companies with a profit motive are incentivized to do things better, rather than worse.

Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".

379 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:08pm

re: #258 Coracle

You don't think a Democrat opening the door isn't a good enough start? He has to walk through it without any plan? Nice.

No it is not.

Exempting the lawyers while scolding doctors for practicing defensive medicine is bullshit.

380 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:11pm

re: #361 jcm

Dang, busted!

YOU SAID DEATH PANEL, FASCIST!

381 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:11pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

Which is why I wonder about sky high premiums to cover the new mandates for the insurance companies.

382 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:12pm

re: #376 Charles

And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.

It's really popular these days.

383 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:30pm

Those with sensitive eyes - turn away now.

ALL POLITICIANS LIE!

They lied about Social Security. They said we would all pay in to a separate fund and the money would be there when we got old. THEY LIED! They moved the revenue from Social Security into the general fund and then they promptly spent the money.

I do not trust any politician!

Period.

384 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:32pm

re: #337 Chekote

I never heard of a 4 year wait. Most of the time is about 6 months. If they can't deny immediate coverage for pre-existing conditions, then how do you stop people from waiting until sick to buy insurance and dropping it after they don't need it anymore. So you make it mandatory and then you are faced with the problem of how do you enforce it.

Many employers who offer insurance to employees have no PEC clause if the new employee takes the insurance within a period of time after employment, 30 days or so.

I'm not sure how often a PEC actually applies to anyone - I know it applied to my husband when I added him to my insurance because I added him late (not within 30 days of our marriage).

385 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:34pm

re: #345 arethusa

And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.

Oh, I loved that line. Yeah, those pesky "profit" thingies. Always getting in the way!

386 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:36pm

re: #332 FrogMarch

In all seriousness--
Obama did NOT say "Public Option" once. Not once.

How many times did he say "public option" in the last speech?

Obama and the lefty-dems still want it - they just realize that they need to continually change their rhetoric to make it all more palpable.

I must be hearing things then. I'm sure he mentioned it in the short time I had to listen...shortly before he enlightened us with the fact that Republicans don't want to do anything to fix anything...EVER, and that not a single one had offered any input.

I think some of you who seem to think this was some kind of amazing bi-partisan heartfelt speech must have zoned out for about the 5 or so minutes that I listened.

387 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:36pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

That's where the reform needs to be made ... hiking insurance rates on customers and then the ceo's and top executives all get millions in bonuses soon after is despicable - no doubt about it

388 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:41pm

re: #376 Charles

And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.

It's as valid as your point.

389 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:47pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

It's really popular these days.

The 5th Column.

390 ASU86PE  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:50pm

re: #314 wee fury

Or was it "HIGHER"?
"FIRE"?
"TIRE"?
"MIRE"?
"SPIRE"?
"PYRE"?

Or something like that

AND who says it was a Republican? Proof?

391 researchok  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:51pm

Even assuming there will be no 'public option', the government insurance oversight bureaucracy will be enormous.

So much for government saving us money.

The CBO numbers were good enough to criticize George Bush when it came to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but when the numbers don't work for Obama, the CBO gets kicked to the curb.

Lastly, Obama is talking pie in the sky. There is no bill as of yet- not from the House and not from the Senate.

392 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:51pm

re: #367 JohnH

Yes, of course, it will be much better when the govt changes the concern about profits to a concern about controlling costs.

Much much better.

just wait until the government has to bail out the insurance companies because they were so poorly ran heavily regulated.

393 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:32:55pm

re: #188 FrogMarch

It wasn't horrible. Stunning- he removed any hint of saying the words "public option".

He's a good speaker, he moved to the middle with a wink to the left.
I doubt he really understands what choice and competition and free markets are.

I personally do not truth him or the progressives who want to make this about taxing one sector to pay for another. But clearly the American people do not want his original version of government run health care - and he caves somewhat.

He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.

394 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:02pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

* * * *
Insurance companies need MORE competition, not monopolies like they have now, state by state.

You're right, they'd make less profit and they'd work harder to woo customers IF they didn't have captive customers and rigged markets in their favor.

Make the insurance companies compete truly.

395 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:02pm

re: #356 jaunte

From the Labor Day speech:
“I continue to believe that a public option within the basket of insurance choices would help improve quality and bring down costs.”

He talked about the public option at length. Not a deal breaker, but he still likes it.

396 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:26pm

One thing I noticed - he's talking about an exchange, but there's not a single mention of coops. How's that going to work?

397 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:35pm

re: #380 haakondahl

YOU SAID DEATH PANEL, FASCIST!

My code was broken too!

Hangs head in shame.

*signs up for public option as penance*

398 TMF  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:45pm

I like how Ogoofy is now calling for eliminating tax exemptions for employers who insure their workers.

I recall a guy named COUGH MCCAIN calling for that during the campaign and being excoriated for it in ad after ad after ad "hes going to tax your health care! waaawaaa!!"

No shame. Zero.

399 yesandno  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:47pm

re: #331 Thanos

Not really. I still think it's a pile of small problems that add up to a big mess. The individual parts should be addressed by individual bills instead of a panoptic panacea package deal.

And that should be true of every darn bill before Congress...they should be specific and not throwing in a bunch of other stuff under the same heading to sneak things through

400 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:51pm

re: #394 alegrias

* * * *
Insurance companies need MORE competition, not monopolies like they have now, state by state.

You're right, they'd make less profit and they'd work harder to woo customers IF they didn't have captive customers and rigged markets in their favor.

Make the insurance companies compete truly.

It worked for auto insurance...

401 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:53pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

Doesn't the government do the same thing at the VA?

402 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:33:55pm

Am I suppose to imagine my problems with health care a just imagine O will fix them. Where's his plan?

403 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:02pm

Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."

Bullshit!

404 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:05pm

re: #378 Coracle

Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".

Exactly. The insurance company makes more by providing less.

This is an inescapable part of the equation.

405 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:06pm

re: #394 alegrias

You got it. They way you stop it is by increasing competition.

406 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:13pm

re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote

He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.

I wouldn't say "clearly." He described it several different ways from what I recall.

407 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:14pm

re: #371 Gus 802

Yeah. Aren't insurance companies great? I just laugh when people "suck up" about insurance companies.

Huh?

Nobody is saying insurance companies are great, or sucking up to them.

408 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:15pm

re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote

He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.

...he was clearly grasping at straws after a horrible August...

409 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:16pm
410 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:17pm

re: #377 Killian Bundy

Talking about "death panels".

/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?


It's the gift that keeps on giving.

411 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:29pm

re: #318 Coracle

[Link: www.economistblog.com...]

According to this, insurance company profit margins are under 4%. Is that excessive?

412 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:30pm

re: #395 avanti

I can believe the bring down costs part, in part.
Not so sure about the quality improvement.

413 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:31pm

re: #366 buzzsawmonkey

Do you object to Medicare, Medicaid or VA benefits?

414 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:32pm

re: #379 Wendya

No it is not.

Exempting the lawyers while scolding doctors for practicing defensive medicine is bullshit.

Except he didn't.

415 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:38pm

I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.

416 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:34:53pm

re: #340 Athos

They're brothers

417 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:03pm

I liked how Obama started the show with a big self-congratulatory pat on the back for saving the economy with the stimulus.
I doubt the folks who are out of work were feeling it.

Then of course, he said something like 'the republicans only want to force everyone out in the cold when it comes to health care.'

He finally made a poke under the free market tent when he agreed that we need more competition. But I still doubt that he doesn't mean "by way of the government solution/option"

If the government would stay out of the restriction game, we would have more insurance companies NOW from which to choose -- and across state lines.

HR3200 must be scraped in order to fulfill his utopian dreams.

418 media_man  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:04pm

Not sure if this is a good speech or just a spectacularly dishonest one. It really helps to have a one party media not questioning any of your statements, even flagrantly mendacious ones like his plan will reduce costs. His own CBO (with a Dem appointed Director) say just the opposite.

What will his plan do to private investment in healthcare innovation? Will anyone invest in pharmaceutical R&D with these Socialists demanding free drugs for everybody at cost? How will hospitals remain in business if the private insurance they depend on to stay afloat is destroyed?

I'm all for Universal Access to healthcare, I just don't think the Dems care about what's good in the current system (access, quality, innnovation) and just want what's good for the Democratic party (massive public constituency for "free" healthcare, however crappy) and huge public sector labor unions of healthcare workers, providing the worst care imaginable.

419 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:06pm

re: #386 theuglydougling

I must be hearing things then. I'm sure he mentioned it in the short time I had to listen...shortly before he enlightened us with the fact that Republicans don't want to do anything to fix anything...EVER, and that not a single one had offered any input.

I think some of you who seem to think this was some kind of amazing bi-partisan heartfelt speech must have zoned out for about the 5 or so minutes that I listened.

I think you should have listened to the whole speech.

420 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:09pm

re: #398 TMF

I like how Ogoofy is now calling for eliminating tax exemptions for employers who insure their workers.

I recall a guy named COUGH MCCAIN calling for that during the campaign and being excoriated for it in ad after ad after ad "hes going to tax your health care! waaawaaa!!"

No shame. Zero.

I don't like Obama very much, but I really wish you would just use his name or "the President", rather than "ogoofy". Please.

421 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:13pm

re: #407 Occasional Reader

Huh?

Nobody is saying insurance companies are great, or sucking up to them.

I was speaking generally. There are several opinions here no?

422 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:14pm

re: #415 Killgore Trout

I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.

Move to Canada so you can live your dream

423 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:20pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not worried. Not at all.

The President said he would not sign any bill which added even a penny to the deficit. I heard him, and I believe him.

We can all go home now.

...oh...I didn't hear that...I'm in!

424 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:25pm

Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.

425 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:29pm

re: #383 Racer X


I do not trust any politician!

Period.

Then who do you try to elect to office? Beauticians?

426 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:30pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not worried. Not at all.

The President said he would not sign any bill which added even a penny to the deficit. I heard him, and I believe him.

We can all go home now.

I need a partner to help finance this great bridge I heard about...

427 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:34pm

re: #377 Killian Bundy

Talking about "death panels".

/notice how Democrats are the only ones still talking about "death panels"?

Well payback is a bitch. It's what you get for lying.

428 badtemper  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:34pm

re: #403 NJDhockeyfan

Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."

Bullshit!

Yeah, I heard that laughed out loud. He thinks the AMA is the entire medical community.

429 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:37pm

re: #378 Coracle

Yeah, the question is does "do things better" mean "provide better care for more people" or "make more profits for our shareholders". And I think the problem is that there's an "or" there too many times instead of an "and".

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we can expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

-A. Smith

430 OtisMyMan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:47pm

re: #383 Racer X

And please let's not forget that after Rowe Vs Wade abortions will only be performed in the first trimester of pregnancy.

431 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:49pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

Exactly. The insurance company makes more by providing less.

This is an inescapable part of the equation.

But I thought a lot of Obama's speech was premised on cutting costs. Which is what insurance companies do already. So if you don't like what insurance companies do, I guarantee you won't like what the govt does.

432 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:56pm

'Tax payers will not be subsidizing the public option"

Did I dream that sentence?

433 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:35:57pm

re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote

Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?

Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.

But that would be a good idea in your world huh?

434 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:02pm

re: #396 Thanos

One thing I noticed - he's talking about an exchange, but there's not a single mention of coops. How's that going to work?

No, he mentioned coops.

435 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:05pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

Well, just wait until the problem is unassailable government bureaucracy. Then we'll be well and truly fucked.

If you think that a profit motive is a disincentive to doing good business, just wait until you experience the power of NOTHING, which is what will be more important than your health, and which is what you will get.

We are not comparing the current system to perfection. We are comparing the current system to a nightmare of dingy hallways and threadbare gowns. This is the way every single government program winds up.

436 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:13pm

re: #366 buzzsawmonkey

I still remain astounded at how many of the people who objected to the possibility that the government might look at their library records are willing to give the government their medical records, tied up with Christmas ribbon.

* * * *
Wait 'til the government knows your urology, gynecology and psychiatry record! Feel the federal love from Big Brother.

437 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:22pm

re: #410 avanti
Anyone sitting in front of one of those panels will have his own opinion.

438 wee fury  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:32pm

re: #390 ASU86PE

:-)

439 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:39pm

re: #388 JohnH

It's as valid as your point.

You're an ass who tried to put words in my mouth. That's my point.

440 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:43pm

Notice Obama stated clearly that it should cost only $900 billion. Less than the Iraq war! So - basically Obama is still on HR3200.

441 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:45pm

So, to summarize, what I think I've read so far:

Where's the Beef?

442 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:36:52pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

As a licensed agent for 20 years and a former exec with a group of insurance cos. I can personally confirm that much to to my displeasure.

443 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:01pm

re: #433 Racer X

Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.

But that would be a good idea in your world huh?

I would go with private over public if I had the means.
I would go with public if I was poor.

444 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:02pm

re: #422 DrNaughty

Move to Canada so you can live your dream


I'll stay here. thanks. Why don't you go to Somalia or some other country without healthcare so you can live your dream?

445 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:03pm

re: #374 Occasional Reader

I think that the companies that provide pretty much everything that keep me fed, clothed, sheltered, and comfortable, are for-profit enterprises.

True. But there is a problem in corporate America where desire for short-term profits over-ride common sense and humanity. Where oil companies won't update and modernize their facilities for the sake of making a profit for those divisions at the risk of an environmental incident. Or where insurers refuse coverage --knowing that coverage exists--in order to keep from paying more than the reserves had been set for. The potential for greater screw-ups with a government run program is great--hence I do not like it. But, I would like to see uniform rules and application of same in the private sector.

446 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:05pm

re: #439 Charles

You're an ass who tried to put words in my mouth. That's my point.

I did not put words in your mouth. I responded to your point. That's all.

447 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:06pm
448 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:13pm

Hmm, can't get through to my congressmans website, anybody else notice that?

449 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:16pm

re: #410 avanti

It's the gift that keeps on giving.

/yeah, keep beating a weeks old dead issue and then accuse Republicans of using scare tactics, beauty, eh?

450 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:19pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? Do the BS and the strawmen and the demagoguery magically disappear when hearing the entire thing?

451 ASU86PE  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:21pm

re: #353 Charles


AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.

452 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:29pm

re: #436 alegrias

* * * *
Wait 'til the government knows your urology, gynecology and psychiatry record! Feel the federal love from Big Brother.

Wait till they know your tax bill!

The real power will be in office workers' gossip about earnings.

453 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:34pm

re: #412 jaunte

I can believe the bring down costs part, in part.
Not so sure about the quality improvement.

I like the 4 year trigger/co-op idea that was worked out with some GOP moderates.

454 Digital Display  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:38pm

re: #364 avanti

Yes, a compromise bill is being worked on this week, you heard some of the idea's tonight, I expect we'll see details next week.

Chief..I just started to read enough of 3 wood's post to begin to understand the financial markets...It's been a long summer..And now I'm going to have to learn the In's and outs of Health care..It's mind numbing..I have said this is a tactical mistake..This was a 2010 issue with a recovered economy and a breathe of relief...It would have been a piece of cake...Having lost tactical advantage it is now a strategic game to win in their current position..Just like a chess game..From where you are..How do you win?

455 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:38pm

re: #431 JohnH

But I thought a lot of Obama's speech was premised on cutting costs. Which is what insurance companies do already. So if you don't like what insurance companies do, I guarantee you won't like what the govt does.

Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.

Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.

456 sagehen  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:43pm

re: #288 Ojoe

Brooks followed him, breaking the cane over Sumner’s head and continuing to strike him with pieces of the cane. The entire attack probably lasted for a full minute, and left Sumner dazed and bleeding. Carried into a Capitol anteroom, Sumner was attended by a doctor, who administered stitches to close wounds on his head.

Brooks was soon arrested on a charge of assault, and was quickly released on bail.
Link


After which, Brooks' constituents sent him many more canes.

457 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:45pm

re: #375 LudwigVanQuixote

Please tell me how opening the market, to increase competition, and providing consumer protections with a minimum coverage option is going to make private insurance go away?

Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.

458 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:46pm

I'd like one of those death panel jobs. How would it work? Thumb up, thumb down? I could do that.

459 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:37:58pm

re: #424 Dar ul Harbarian

Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.

Please don't mention the demotion of Pluto. It was a bad day for me.

/

460 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:02pm

re: #432 SummerSong

'Tax payers will not be subsidizing the public option"

Did I dream that sentence?

I believe I heard that.

461 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:02pm

re: #451 ASU86PE

AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.

Hey, I brew my own, but don't drive after partaking.

462 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:04pm

re: #451 ASU86PE

AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.

I fail to see how your analogy fits.

463 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:08pm

re: #358 Gus 802

Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?

464 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:08pm

re: #366 buzzsawmonkey

They probably have them already.

465 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:16pm

re: #433 Racer X

Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.

But that would be a good idea in your world huh?

There are plenty of non-profit health insurance companies already.

466 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:21pm

re: #441 ggt

So, to summarize, what I think I've read so far:

Where's the Beef?


Just more cheerleading...only in prime time.

467 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:24pm

re: #428 badtemper

Yeah, I heard that laughed out loud. He thinks the AMA is the entire medical community.

My wife is a nurse and I have close friend who is a doctor. Neither one knows a doctor who supports ObamaCare.

468 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:30pm

re: #353 Charles

Uh ... if you folks think that there aren't problems with insurance companies that put profits ahead of patient care, you're dreaming.

I agree with your comment Charles, but I'm also not stupid enough to think the government can do it better. Medicare and Social Security.

469 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:31pm

re: #425 Coracle

Then who do you try to elect to office? Beauticians?

Heh.

I vote for the politician I think will lie the least.

470 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:33pm

re: #415 Killgore Trout

As someone who watched her mother die in a state hospital in Europe, let me tell you. Be careful what you wish for. The point is that no one is denied care in this country. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. And I am sick and tired of this fallacious no insurance = no treatment. You want to see no treatment? Move to Europe. My cat got better care here in the US than my mother in Italy.

471 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:34pm

re: #437 Kilroy

Anyone sitting in front of one of those panels will have his own opinion.

You missing the sarc tag, there never were any death panels.

472 arethusa  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:39pm

Uh, Obama is giving another statement on health care reform tomorrow morning?

Was tonight not enough? It was pretty clear what he wanted to do.

473 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:39pm

re: #463 right_wing2

Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?

Not any now, just show up at the ER

474 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:43pm

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

475 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:49pm

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.

Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.

Yet this is what the UK Government Healthcare is doing every day

476 BothAndWorld  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:38:50pm

Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?

I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?

477 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:03pm

re: #433 Racer X

Because the government plan is "not for profit". There is no way private insurance can compete with a government subsidized health care plan. Watch how many insurance companies fold in the first year.

But that would be a good idea in your world huh?

And yet UPS and FED EX do fine. I am saying that giving people who have nothing will save more lives than pricing them out of having anything.

The costs that I am measuring are in lives, not as much as dollars.

Call me a religious nut.

478 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:07pm

re: #411 right_wing2

[Link: www.economistblog.com...]

According to this, insurance company profit margins are under 4%. Is that excessive?

I'm not an economist. I know people who have no insurance because they can't afford it. I know others who have been dropped at exactly the moment they needed the coverage they had. If that's the price of a 4% margin for companies that are supposed to care for people as part of their business plan, then yes, It's excessive.

479 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:13pm

re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote

He clearly spoke of a public option as an independently run system.

* * * *
By "independent panels" of UNELECTED czars, silly.

480 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:23pm

re: #447 buzzsawmonkey

What has that to do with anything?

At the thought that government functionaries might possibly seek to examine their library records, nearly half the country went batshit bonkers. That is the same near-half of the country that is most gung-ho to hand over their much-more-private medical records to the government.

Explain how this makes any sense at all.

You seem to be afraid that if there's a public option, the government will do something with your medical records. If you take currently advantage of Medicare, Medicaid or VA benefits, they already have your medical benefits so why should it be a concern?

481 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:23pm

re: #340 Athos

Is that the meme this week? Last week Cheney was the spawn of Satan. I need to get an updated playbook.

That is so "last administration"! You should log on to latestspawn.com to keep up on the very latest spawns of Satan. You could also text "spawn666" to 666-6666 for the very latest spawn updates.

Satan is a prolific fellow and you never know who will be his next spawn - MAYBE EVEN YOU!

482 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:28pm

re: #457 haakondahl

Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.

Precisely.
When the government loses money - the government hits us up for more via taxation and fees. No competition involved.

483 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:35pm

re: #476 BothAndWorld

Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?

I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?

Bush demonization is essential in the obamaworld.

484 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:40pm

re: #458 The Curmudgeon
Do you have a big axe?

485 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:41pm

re: #386 theuglydougling

Now, I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business. They provide a legitimate service, and employ a lot of our friends and neighbors. I just want to hold them accountable. The insurance reforms that I’ve already mentioned would do just that. But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange.

486 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:42pm

Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.

487 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:44pm

re: #427 LudwigVanQuixote

Well payback is a bitch. It's what you get for lying.

/exactly, what goes around comes around, wait for it

488 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:45pm

re: #463 right_wing2

Is there a requirement that proof of residency/citizenship/whatever be presented before receiving care?

Have you called or written your congressman to consider that as an amendment? As far as I know there is provision that it should not cover illegal aliens.

Talk to your congressman.

489 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #457 haakondahl

Opening the market would be allowing competition BETWEEN COMPANIES. One does not compete with government. One gets creamed by government.

He was talking about an index of companies competing across America for everyone. That is called opening the market.

490 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:47pm

re: #476 BothAndWorld

Really? The only mention of Afghanistan was in terms of it being a financial burden rather than a cause worth fighting for?

I understand that this was a night dedicated to health-care, but was that dig necessary?

Sadly- many on the right now seem to think Afghanistan isn't worth fighting for.

491 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:54pm

re: #458 The Curmudgeon

I'd like one of those death panel jobs. How would it work? Thumb up, thumb down? I could do that.

If you can hind your own Easter eggs like me, that's one strike. /

492 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:39:59pm

Hubby thinks Skeletor might have gained some weight? Less stress, not working with Pretty Boy anymore?

493 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:01pm

Shouldn't this have morphed into a gun thread by now?
/

494 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:17pm

re: #467 NJDhockeyfan

My wife is a nurse and I have close friend who is a doctor. Neither one knows a doctor who supports ObamaCare.

The doctors who have weighed in with me are all unsure. Most common phrase: "Its complicated".

495 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:22pm

re: #450 theuglydougling

Why? Do the BS and the strawmen and the demagoguery magically disappear when hearing the entire thing?

Scratch that suggestion. I'm sure you'd only hear what you intended to hear no matter how much of it you listened to.

496 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:25pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

lmao

497 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:32pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

At least we aren't arguing about Pluto.

498 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:36pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

Uh, made a popular blog perhaps ?

499 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:44pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

I would go with private over public if I had the means.
I would go with public if I was poor.

Bingo!

You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.

500 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:53pm

re: #451 ASU86PE

AND Brewers + and Automakers are sainted = 58,000 die annuallly in auto
accidents with a majorityas a result of DUI's.


WTF? They promote drunk driving? Where?

501 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:40:56pm
502 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:03pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

Naw...it's a nest of excited lizards!

503 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:09pm

re: #494 experiencedtraveller

The doctors who have weighed in with me are all unsure. Most common phrase: "Its complicated".

Will obamacare mean that doctors won't have to carry liability insurance ?

504 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:14pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

You want we should go away?

505 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:14pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

You knave!/

Montressor Masonry, Inc.--Quality is Not the Only Thing That Goes Into Our Work!

506 researchok  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:15pm

Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?

507 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:17pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

Don't blame me, I called for a gun thread.

508 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:28pm

re: #376 Charles

And yes, of course -- I didn't say any of that, but don't let it stop you from putting words in my mouth.

Charles, you did not say that, but it hardly constitutes putting words in your mouth to voice the other, unspoken view of the same process.

From your post, it sounds like you are pitting the current system against some rose-colored vision of ObamaCare. If I thought it would work they way the President thinks it will work, then maybe I would support it. What JohnH did was point out the alternative view, that pits the current system against a less credulous interpretation of the President's plan. None of that puts words in your mouth. They're his words. From his mouth. He just disagrees.

509 Bubbaman  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:35pm

re: #422 DrNaughty

Move to Canada so you can live your dream

Look, there are some very interesting facets about the Canadian medical system that people don't know about and the media has conveniently ignored. No, I'm not talking about wait times, rationing, treatment limitations, etc.

Did any of you know that dental care is a free market, cash enterprise in Canada? That's right, the cradle to grave socialist system doesn't provide FREE dental care. Canadian dentists are very happy, busy, and well paid.

Moreover, there is a burgeoning movement to establish "pay for care" health systems in Canada.

I spoke with a Dentist friend of mine from Toronto the other day and he is absolutely mortified that we would consider emulating the Canadian health system.

510 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:45pm

re: #353 Charles

It's a legit problem, but I'll take my chances with insurance companies in the private sector each and every time dealing with insurance issues and my various physicians over some government healthcare fiasco. Every time.

I just switched plans after spending two hours online with a local broker and went over (no kidding) over 100 different plans, both group and individual. I was shocked at how many plans are out there. In fact, it took me two weeks to decide there were so many.

511 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:47pm

re: #493 Occasional Reader

Shouldn't this have morphed into a gun thread by now?
/

Shoot.

512 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:54pm

re: #459 ggt

Please don't mention the demotion of Pluto. It was a bad day for me.

/

There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

513 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:41:59pm

re: #507 Occasional Reader

Montresor prefers the brick.

514 badtemper  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:05pm

re: #498 avanti

Uh, made a popular blog perhaps ?

Enjoy it until an Obama Czar regulates it. (Truther!)

515 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:12pm

re: #506 researchok

Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?

Because they are the ruling elite...

We are the workers and should be grateful what they can provide to us to make our miserable lives better...

516 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:18pm

re: #403 NJDhockeyfan

Axelrod: "The doctors and nurses support this reform."

Bullshit!

* * * *
SOME might.

But you're right! Yesterday several doctors in white robes lobbied Congress against this plan.

517 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:25pm

re: #508 haakondahl

There you go.

518 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:34pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

Well done. This is when we are really working.

519 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:36pm
520 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:39pm

re: #499 Racer X

Bingo!

You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.

so...if Obama get's his way...I get the shitty public option even if I can afford the private...

521 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:41pm

re: #499 Racer X

Bingo!

You hit it right on the head. Lets give folks who cannot afford it the option. But I think we are heading towards knocking private health care out of business - intentionally - with this reform.

I want nancy pelosi's plan.

522 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:42pm

It's a presidential address speaking at a joint session. The final decision will lie with the House and the Senate. In the end it will either be signed by the president or vetoed.

523 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:45pm

anyone watch the rebuttal?

524 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:46pm

re: #471 avanti

You missing the sarc tag, there never were any death panels.

/someone should tell Obama and Axelrod

525 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:51pm

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

And the Veterans Administration, a fully funded government operation doesn't cut corners, and didn't shortchange services to veterans? It still doesn't provide the kind of coverage members of the armed forces deserve.

Then, there's the Indian Health Service, which is as screwed up a system as one can possibly imagine. Those are two systems operated top to bottom by the US government. Fix those first - make them run efficiently and control costs.

If you can't succeed there, there's absolutely no way you're going to succeed with the rest of the health care delivery system, where hundreds of millions already have health insurance.

The issue isn't one of access to health care, but cost - and Obama isn't going to cut costs with his proposals...

526 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:53pm

re: #470 Chekote

As someone who watched her mother die in a state hospital in Europe, let me tell you. Be careful what you wish for. The point is that no one is denied care in this country. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. And I am sick and tired of this fallacious no insurance = no treatment. You want to see no treatment? Move to Europe. My cat got better care here in the US than my mother in Italy.

Yes. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. But the emergency room doesn't do preventive care, or treat chronic conditions real well, and we all pay through the nose for that little option.

527 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:42:58pm

re: #424 Dar ul Harbarian

Trying to explain to a kid why Pluto isn't a planet anymore...Priceless.

Show him this

528 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:13pm

re: #474 Charles

Man, this place is like a nest of hornets tonight.

What have I done? For the love of God, Montresor!

or--We're Just Another Brick in the Wall...

529 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:17pm

Growing government is never good. It always results in higher taxes and a loss of freedom. The President just put us on the Socialism fast track. What a surprise.

530 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:18pm

re: #486 jorline

Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.

I think he's more like the ShamWow guy.

"Follow me camera guy?"

531 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:20pm

The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.

532 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:38pm

re: #477 LudwigVanQuixote

And yet UPS and FED EX do fine. I am saying that giving people who have nothing will save more lives than pricing them out of having anything.

The costs that I am measuring are in lives, not as much as dollars.

Call me a religious nut.

I hear you, and I appreciate your compassion for those who need care. I am skeptical that this reform will not be painful for ALL Americans.

533 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:40pm

re: #507 Occasional Reader

Don't blame me, I called for a gun thread.

Boobs! Try boobs!

534 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:46pm

re: #514 badtemper

Enjoy it until an Obama Czar regulates it. (Truther!)

I'll be cool comrade, we just nationalize the blog for the One./

535 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:47pm

re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's called a bullshit lie.

He proposed a bunch of things that we would all agree with, but it had to be a lie...


Why is that?

536 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:57pm

re: #511 calcajun

Shoot.

Okay:

If I'm told to kill myself by an Obamacare Death Panel, the ammo I will choose is: ___

Discuss.

//

537 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:57pm

re: #506 researchok

Rereading the speech- Why do Democrats believe they are the only ones who decide what 'choice' is?

Well, now that's the key to the whole thing, isn't it? If you don't trust private enterprise, then you feel you have no choice now, and only a government option will give it to you. On the other hand, if you don't trust government, then you feel you have choice now, and will lose it when government inevitably defends its ugly baby from the hazards of market forces.

538 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:43:58pm

I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.

I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.

539 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:02pm

re: #525 lawhawk

And the Veterans Administration, a fully funded government operation doesn't cut corners, and didn't shortchange services to veterans? It still doesn't provide the kind of coverage members of the armed forces deserve.

Then, there's the Indian Health Service, which is as screwed up a system as one can possibly imagine. Those are two systems operated top to bottom by the US government. Fix those first - make them run efficiently and control costs.

If you can't succeed there, there's absolutely no way you're going to succeed with the rest of the health care delivery system, where hundreds of millions already have health insurance.

The issue isn't one of access to health care, but cost - and Obama isn't going to cut costs with his proposals...

RIGHT ON!

540 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:09pm

re: #531 Chekote

The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.

if you think it's expensive now...wait until it's "free"

541 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:12pm

re: #430 OtisMyMan

And please let's not forget that after Rowe Vs Wade abortions will only be performed in the first trimester of pregnancy.

* * ***
Hahahahaha. That was another whopper.

542 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:16pm

Excuse me while I check on some technical issues...

543 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:31pm

re: #510 borgcube

It's a legit problem, but I'll take my chances with insurance companies in the private sector each and every time dealing with insurance issues and my various physicians over some government healthcare fiasco. Every time.

I just switched plans after spending two hours online with a local broker and went over (no kidding) over 100 different plans, both group and individual. I was shocked at how many plans are out there. In fact, it took me two weeks to decide there were so many.

Ding Ding!

544 huckfunn  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:43pm

re: #530 NJDhockeyfan

Obama will be the the Billy Mays in eight years.

I think he's more like the ShamWow guy.

"Follow me camera guy?"

linguine, martini, bikini

545 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:43pm

The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.

546 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:45pm

re: #533 experiencedtraveller

Boobs! Try boobs!

there's a boob thread?...//

547 freedomplow  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:46pm

Its all about the teasin and not about the pleasin.

548 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:47pm

re: #531 Chekote
Where can I read the PLAN!

549 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:47pm

re: #521 Sharmuta

I want nancy pelosi's plan.

You mean... the botox?

550 theuglydougling  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:44:51pm

re: #495 SanFranciscoZionist

So if I hear a bunch of strawmen and demagoguery, is that in no way supposed to affect my judgment of what else I hear? Is that only bad when it comes from out of power Republicans?

551 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:01pm

I don't want people to die that can be saved thru medical care, or lack of war or crime or whatever. Who does? Really?

But reality is reality, this is not Heaven-- it is Earth.

It seems that people think Utopia is accessible thru government planning and anyone that stands in the way is subject to Godwin's law.

I'm utterly frustrated by this issue tonite.

I'm going to do some laundry.

check-in later.

552 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:04pm

re: #525 lawhawk

Bingo. Fix what is broken, first. Then we might trust you.

553 badtemper  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:11pm

re: #538 Coracle

I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.

I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.


Again: Judge a man by his actions. Just sayin'.

554 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:19pm

re: #491 avanti

If you can hind your own Easter eggs like me, that's one strike. /

Hind, Easter eggs? OUCHIE!

555 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:27pm

re: #545 Charles

The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.

It was an overdose of hopium and changium. The solution is simple.

Death panels. ///

556 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:29pm

re: #545 Charles

The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.

Sounds like we need hamster death panels! That'll motivate them.

557 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:32pm

re: #521 Sharmuta

I want nancy pelosi's plan.

You've seen her plastic surgery right?

558 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:46pm

re: #365 alegrias

* * * *
Dems want to discontinue Health Savings Accounts with High Deductible insurance.

Can't have something that reduces costs!

Under the plan Obama outlined, I would not be allowed to keep my current coverage.

Contrast this:

First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.

With this:

As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

That is a direct contradiction of the "you get to keep it!" line of bullshit he keeps peddling. Insurance companies would not legally be allowed to continue to offer high deductible polices. It would violate the 'out of pocket' and 'free preventative care' provisions. It is a lie.

559 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:46pm

re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. They treat you when you show up at the emergency room. But the emergency room doesn't do preventive care, or treat chronic conditions real well, and we all pay through the nose for that little option.

This is why annual check-ups keep costs down. Like I mentioned on the last thread with breast and colon cancer- getting these two areas checked regularly is essential. Survival rates are higher when they're caught early. Good luck getting this done in an ER.

560 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:45:59pm
561 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:10pm

re: #557 Racer X

You've seen her plastic surgery right?

Not worried about that- I'm better looking than she is.

562 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:11pm

re: #557 Racer X

You've seen her plastic surgery right?

hey...she doesn't look a day over 86...

563 Bubbaman  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:12pm

re: #545 Charles

The hamsters are filing trouble tickets.

We need more power Scotty...

564 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:14pm

re: #532 Racer X

I hear you, and I appreciate your compassion for those who need care. I am skeptical that this reform will not be painful for ALL Americans.

Spread the wealth / Spread the pain.

565 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:15pm

re: #524 Killian Bundy

/someone should tell Obama and Axelrod

Nah, they can milk it to death, it's a wonderful line.

566 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:23pm

re: #465 Killgore Trout

There are plenty of non-profit health insurance companies already.

There are? Can you name any?

My understanding of all of this is

1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car;

2) if you can't afford healthcare (you're below a certain income I'm assuming), there will be a free public not-for-profit option;

3) now this is where I'm not clear. Is he saying there will be a paid-for government option, probably run by an HMO or some such, that you can take if you want, but would be cheaper than another PPO, HMO, etc. option? And if so, what would be the differences between that and a more expensive, private ins plan?

That's basically what I garnered. I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.

567 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:25pm

re: #538 Coracle

I can't say as I'm surprised. Those who held Obama in contempt still do. Those who think he can't tell a straight story still do. Those who will not be satisfied with anything he says still aren't. Those who are willing to cut him some slack still do.

I conclude the speech was virtually ineffective here. And that there are a few, but very few open minds here as well. At least the site owner is one of them.

Coracle - I don't support this plan, I didn't before the speech, and I don't know. That does not make me close-minded. It simply means I have come to a different conclusion than someone who does support the plan.

568 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:45pm

re: #520 Charpete67

so...if Obama get's his way...I get the shitty public option even if I can afford the private...

Except that, well, that's not the goal.

569 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:50pm

re: #559 Sharmuta

This is why annual check-ups keep costs down. Like I mentioned on the last thread with breast and colon cancer- getting these two areas checked regularly is essential. Survival rates are higher when they're caught early. Good luck getting this done in an ER.


Agreed. The ER is no argument for "available" healthcare

570 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:46:51pm

re: #542 Charles

Excuse me while I check on some technical issues...

Server smoke ???

571 Dar ul Harbarian  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:13pm

re: #527 Thanos

Show him this

[Video]


Thanks!

572 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:26pm

re: #555 lawhawk

It was an overdose of hopium and changium. The solution is simple.

Death panels. ///

If he had doubled-downed on energy -- an Apollo-like program--then more people might have gotten behind it. This should have waited until 2011.

573 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:27pm

re: #560 buzzsawmonkey

Plastic? I thought it was Spackle.

Wrong. It's laminated synthetic armor. Do NOT f**k with Pelosi.

574 Code Red 21  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:34pm

Let's see what Jack Webb has to say to BO about healthcare reform...

575 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:36pm

re: #567 reine.de.tout

Coracle - I don't support this plan, I didn't before the speech, and I don't know. That does not make me close-minded. It simply means I have come to a different conclusion than someone who does support the plan.

You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.

576 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:37pm

re: #568 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that, well, that's not the goal.

no sarc tag?...not the goal...but the inevitable end...I don't see how people can't see that.

577 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:47:42pm

re: #556 haakondahl

Sounds like we need hamster death panels czars! That'll motivate them.

There, fixed. /

578 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:01pm

re: #452 experiencedtraveller

Wait till they know your tax bill!

The real power will be in office workers' gossip about earnings.

* * * *
Remember how quickly Joe the Plumber's private records were accessed by an Ohio state government worker, all because when Obama walked onto Joe the Plumber's front lawn, Joe the Plumber asked candidate Obama a question?

Trust the state or government NEVER to access your most private medical records IN THEIR POSSESSION.

Bwahaha. Abandon all hope of privacy, ye who enter the "public/singlepayer" option

579 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:14pm

re: #575 Coracle

You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.

Yep, lots of changes.

580 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:16pm

Insurance companies are businesses charged with maximizing profits for their share holders. Pretty elementary. Makes them businesses, not demons I think.

The only thing that prevents you from paying $20K for you computer is competition - of the global variety. If I had a choice limited to two or three computer makers, all with the same specifications, in the place I live would I not get bent over when buying a new one?

Can someone explain the practice of limiting insurance co. participation on a State by State basis? Who is paying who in this apparent little protection racket, or is it for the good of the citizens?

581 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:18pm

re: #573 Occasional Reader

Wrong. It's laminated synthetic armor. Do NOT f**k with Pelosi.

The last Cylon?

582 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:21pm

Just had to kill a bunch of MySQL processes that were stacking up on the DB server for some reason.

Another issue to investigate this weekend.

583 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:39pm

Private insurance companies can't run up tens of trillions in losses like the government has and will continue to.

/it won't be too long before the debt overwhelms our ability to even make the promised payments on it and, in the real world of private enterprise, that's called default

584 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:39pm

re: #526 SanFranciscoZionist

Here in Dallas at Parkland Hospital they treat you when you show up. That's what the illegals do for every little thing. There are also lots of clinics that provide free care. A friend of mine's father was visiting from Bulgaria, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. They went to Parkland. Took care of his treatment including providing a Bulgarian interpreter. And still comes to the US for follow up visits. People get care. It is the cost that is the problem.

585 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:48pm

re: #528 calcajun

or--We're Just Another Brick in the Wall...

Great! Here's a video that fits this thread.

Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother, do you think they'll like this song?
Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Mother, should I build the wall?
Mother, should I run for President?
Mother, should I trust the government?
Mother, will they put me in the firing line?
Is it just a waste of time?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing
Momma's will keep Baby cozy and warm
Oooo Babe
Oooo Babe
Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build the wall

Mother, do you think she's good enough
For me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous
To me?
Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
Mother, will she break my heart?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry
Momma's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you
Momma won't let anyone dirty get through
Momma's gonna wait up until you get in
Momma will always find out where you've been
Momma's gonna keep Baby healthy and clean
Oooo Babe
Oooo Babe
Ooo Babe, you'll always be Baby to me

Mother, did it need to be so high?

586 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:48:50pm

re: #558 Wendya

Under the plan Obama outlined, I would not be allowed to keep my current coverage.

Contrast this:

First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have. Let me repeat this: nothing in our plan requires you to change what you have.

With this:

As soon as I sign this bill, it will be against the law for insurance companies to drop your coverage when you get sick or water it down when you need it most. They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime. We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

That is a direct contradiction of the "you get to keep it!" line of bullshit he keeps peddling. Insurance companies would not legally be allowed to continue to offer high deductible polices. It would violate the 'out of pocket' and 'free preventative care' provisions. It is a lie.

Exactly. The reason that Hugh Hewitt has been banging on about how this is, in fact a lie, is because Hugh Hewitt knows how to read, knows how to listen, knows how the government works, and knows how markets work.
The "Ugly Baby" process is my own invention, I am happy to say :-)

But you are exactly right. Even if the President truly believes that "you can keep your doctor and or your plan if you like", it just will not be possible if the President's plan goes forward.

587 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:15pm

re: #566 marjoriemoon

There are? Can you name any?

My understanding of all of this is

1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car;

2) if you can't afford healthcare (you're below a certain income I'm assuming), there will be a free public not-for-profit option;

3) now this is where I'm not clear. Is he saying there will be a paid-for government option, probably run by an HMO or some such, that you can take if you want, but would be cheaper than another PPO, HMO, etc. option? And if so, what would be the differences between that and a more expensive, private ins plan?

That's basically what I garnered. I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.

My insurance plan is not-for-profit, because I have my health insurance through my former employer, and they are self-insured for employee health insurance.

And those mammographies and colonoscopies aren't "free" - somebody paid for the equipment and the technicians and the doctors and the time and the facilities.

588 Izzyboy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:21pm

re: #583 Killian Bundy

Private insurance companies can't run up tens of trillions in losses like the government has and will continue to.

/it won't be too long before the debt overwhelms our ability to even make the promised payments on it and, in the real world of private enterprise, that's called default

Then we'll just bail ourselves out!
/

589 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:32pm

re: #345 arethusa

And did you notice, "profits" cut into "overhead"? I thought profits were what you had when overhead expenses had been paid.


Here's the actual quote:

But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers.

This is what happens when you elect someone who is economically illiterate.

590 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:34pm

I'm having a hard time deciding between which washer and dryer I should buy next...perhaps the government can help me out and eliminate some of the competition.

591 Truck Monkey  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #531 Chekote

The reason Obama is having problem selling his plan is because he still has not explained how he is going to pay for it. This nebulous "savings from fraud" is not doing the trick. It has nothing to do with Palin's ridiculous "death panels" charge. Obama is wasting to much time talking about the death panels.

Oh PUHLEASE! It's as easy as this really.
Phase one - Collect Underpants
Phase two -
Phase Three - Realize Savings from fraud!

I does not get any easier than this!

//

592 Bubbaman  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:43pm

Gotta run - after another 14.5 hour work day, I actually have to spend some time at home. Good night and don't get sick.

593 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:44pm

re: #566 marjoriemoon

I also think not being turned down for pre-existing conditions, free mammography (think we have this already) and free colonoscopies are great ideas.


marjorie, nothing is free.

594 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:49:55pm

re: #581 jcm

The last Cylon?

Oh, hell, we're ALL Cylons.

/don't get me started... grumble grumble... stupid declining story arc...

595 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:01pm

re: #519 buzzsawmonkey

I have expressed nothing like what you are saying in the post you referenced. I was talking about the utter disconnect of people manifestly not trusting the government to know what books they took out of the library, yet being perfectly willing to trust that same government with the most intimate details of their physical condition.

Again: does that make sense to you?

Take a breathe, Buzz. I wasn't attacking you. I was just asking a question. Anybody who would be concerned with the gov having access to their medical records must simply not realize that they already do. I was asking if you thought so as well, is all.

596 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:14pm

re: #575 Coracle

You see no difference from what he outlined in his speech from the current texts coming out of committees? I did. That was part of the point of the speech, to my mind.

Yes, I saw a few differences.

I still do not support this plan.
I'm not close-minded.
I just have come to a different conclusion about the plan than someone who does support it.

597 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:15pm

re: #571 Dar ul Harbarian

Thanks!

You are most welcome, covers the whole deal in HD with lots of other interesting facts.

598 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:22pm

re: #590 jorline

I'm having a hard time deciding between which washer and dryer I should buy next...perhaps the government can help me out and eliminate some of the competition.

Join the military and they will do your laundry for you.

599 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:25pm
600 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:28pm

re: #488 Gus 802

That was offered as an amendment, and it was defeated.

601 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:50:38pm

re: #582 Charles

Just had to kill a bunch of MySQL processes that were stacking up on the DB server for some reason.

Another issue to investigate this weekend.

Death Queries.

602 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:13pm

re: #596 reine.de.tout

re: #596 reine.de.tout

Yes, I saw a few differences.

I still do not support this plan.
I'm not close-minded.
I just have come to a different conclusion about the plan than someone who does support it.

That I can respect.

603 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:30pm

There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.

604 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:41pm

re: #586 haakondahl

Exactly. The reason that Hugh Hewitt has been banging on about how this is, in fact a lie, is because Hugh Hewitt knows how to read, knows how to listen, knows how the government works, and knows how markets work.
The "Ugly Baby" process is my own invention, I am happy to say :-)

But you are exactly right. Even if the President truly believes that "you can keep your doctor and or your plan if you like", it just will not be possible if the President's plan goes forward.

Yep. The plan basically forbids private health insurers from managing their risk pool... which is the very heart of the insurance business model. But if someone mentions that the intent is to drive them out of business? Well, Obama and the Dems are shocked, shocked to find there's gambling in this establishment.

605 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:51pm

re: #592 Bubbaman

Gotta run - after another 14.5 hour work day, I actually have to spend some time at home. Good night and don't get sick.

Upding on the 14.5 hour work day, good on you, stay healthy!

606 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:51:55pm

re: #600 right_wing2

That was offered as an amendment, and it was defeated.

OK Going to fast here. Would be nice to see more bi-partisanship on this bill. I don't like the individual mandate -- I can't afford it.

607 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:02pm

Also, here are the GOP ideas on healhcare:

[Link: www.gop.gov...]

If people are going to criticize Republicans for their lies, then let's do the same for the Dems. People not getting care because they don't have insurance is a lie. The GOP has not proposals, is another lie.

608 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:04pm

re: #589 Wendya

Here's a note on insurance profits:

Humana will have a scant profit margin of 2.79% this year and has had a 9-year average profit margin of only 1.92%. Similarly, Cigna is at about 3.02% for 2009 with an average of 4.73% over the last 9 years. Aetna is at 3.85% with a 9-year average of 4.01%. Wellpoint has numbers of 4.07% and 4.39%; respectively.

Note: All these statistics (above and below) were obtained from either Yahoo Finance or from Standard & Poors Stock Reports.

Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%

[Link: cuttingthroughthefog.blogspot.com...]

609 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:05pm

re: #576 Charpete67

no sarc tag?...not the goal...but the inevitable end...I don't see how people can't see that.

I can't imagine how anyone could believe your interpretation, so, well...

610 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:08pm

Anyone whose default is to glom on to government solutions is inherently lazy. IMHO, of course.

611 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:14pm
612 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:19pm

re: #585 NJDhockeyfan

Funny, I think this song is more apropos:

613 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:25pm

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

614 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:27pm

re: #594 Occasional Reader

Oh, hell, we're ALL Cylons.

/don't get me started... grumble grumble... stupid declining story arc...

LOL, I was bummed by the last season, really pissed the decided stone age was a great idea...

615 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:52:32pm

re: #599 buzzsawmonkey

It's not a matter of what Obama "can" or "can't" do. It's a matter of comparing his promises with costs, existing government programs, and the government track record, and knowing that what he promises can be delivered only in an alternate universe.

The "lack of satisfaction" comes from knowing he is lying because he cannot suspend the laws of economics to please his constituency. It is not a matter of wanting to mistrust the man--it is a matter of him forcing us to mistrust him because there is no way in hell he can make good on his lovely words.

If you hear resentment here, it is because people dislike having to view their President as a facile mountebank, and resent, deeply, his forcing them to view him as such.

well said!...quoted it to make sure people read this. I'm so sick of people saying that if you disagree, you must hate Obama...maybe we just don't think the government can do a good job with 20% of our economy.

616 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:10pm

re: #603 Kilroy

There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.

Ground unicorn horn will cure all your ills, step right up folks!

617 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:15pm

re: #599 buzzsawmonkey

It's not a matter of what Obama "can" or "can't" do. It's a matter of comparing his promises with costs, existing government programs, and the government track record, and knowing that what he promises can be delivered only in an alternate universe.

Knowing. Right.

If you hear resentment here, it is because people dislike having to view their President as a facile mountebank, and resent, deeply, his forcing them to view him as such.

Thank you for proving my point.

618 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:18pm

re: #602 Coracle

I believe we need reform, and I liked some of what I heard from the president, and I'm pretty skeptical on other parts.

619 jorline  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:53:20pm

re: #598 JohnH

Join the military and they will do your laundry for you.

Liar...I would get stuck in the laundry room doing mine and every one else's.
//

620 Dahveed  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:02pm

re: #613 Charles

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

You got it! You do a helluva job!

621 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:06pm

re: #566 marjoriemoon

Free screenings and mammograms are probably a good idea, but one that Dr. Barrett (linked earlier by Charles) doesn't agree with. It's not necessarily going to cut costs either.

The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.

622 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:09pm

re: #619 jorline

Liar...I would get stuck in the laundry room doing mine and every one else's.
//

Well, nothing's perfect I guess. The other alternative was to commit a felony and go to prison.

623 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:11pm

re: #617 Coracle

he cannot suspend the laws of economics to please his constituency

This is true.

624 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:39pm

re: #609 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't imagine how anyone could believe your interpretation, so, well...

?...you're saying that a public option won't crowd out the private sector option over time?

625 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:41pm

"Part of the reason I faced a trillion-dollar deficit when I walked in the door of the White House is because too many initiatives over the last decade were not paid for – from the Iraq war to tax breaks for the wealthy."

Can someone please explain how government "pays" when we don't give it more money?

626 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:43pm

re: #201 Charles

It was a really low class move to scream "LIAR!"

And saying "They did it too!" is so tedious it makes my teeth hurt.

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

627 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:45pm

re: #587 reine.de.tout

My insurance plan is not-for-profit, because I have my health insurance through my former employer, and they are self-insured for employee health insurance.

And those mammographies and colonoscopies aren't "free" - somebody paid for the equipment and the technicians and the doctors and the time and the facilities.

Well unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept, some insurance company is holding your policy and that company makes a profit. Is it something different?

We're talking about free to the consumer. Having the costs absorbed elsewhere for free mammographies and such saves in the long run because illness can be diagnosed early when its less costly to deal with.

628 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:45pm

re: #588 Izzyboy

Then we'll just bail ourselves out!
/

/just wait until China and other countries stop buying our debt, they're already warning us, but Mr. I'm Going To Double The National Debt doesn't seem to be listening

629 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:54:47pm
he cannot suspend the laws of economics to please his constituency

Regulation tends to increase costs.

630 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:04pm

It's Miller time on Fox.

631 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:24pm

re: #589 Wendya

Here's the actual quote:

But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers.

This is what happens when you elect someone who is economically illiterate.

Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.

632 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:38pm

re: #578 alegrias

* * * *
Remember how quickly Joe the Plumber's private records were accessed by an Ohio state government worker, all because when Obama walked onto Joe the Plumber's front lawn, Joe the Plumber asked candidate Obama a question?

Trust the state or government NEVER to access your most private medical records IN THEIR POSSESSION.

Bwahaha. Abandon all hope of privacy, ye who enter the "public/singlepayer" option

The IRS has strong regulations in place regarding privacy. ( I got an I-man in the family) and they will lose their jobs and they may be prosecuted for snooping. And they have a strong ethos of privacy developed over many decades.

Once that data gets released to 'the Commission' or whomever you might as well write it on the bathroom wall at the local diner.

633 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:43pm

re: #603 Kilroy

There is no PLAN,just support O and your dreams will be fulfilled.

/you have a problem with that?

634 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:46pm

re: #613 Charles

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

I don't have a Paypal account but I have been using the LGF Amazon store a lot lately.

635 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:55:48pm

I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

I see things a lot clearer now.

636 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:06pm

re: #618 Sharmuta

I believe we need reform, and I liked some of what I heard from the president, and I'm pretty skeptical on other parts.

I both respect that, and agree with it. I think he's cut a very big challenge for himself and congress. The various bills as written cannot pass - in part because they lack support, in part because they lack some of the things he's defined as necessary, and in part because he can't sign them because they're not deficit neutral. A new bill is going to be needed, or the current one virtually completely rewritten.

637 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:06pm

re: #621 lawhawk

The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.

That's the only part I think that may need a government funded assistance program

638 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:07pm

OT: is this really the most pressing issue that needed a joint session of Congress?

639 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:14pm

re: #634 NJDhockeyfan

I don't have a Paypal account but I have been using the LGF Amazon store a lot lately.

You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.

640 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:56:48pm

re: #635 Racer X

I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

I see things a lot clearer now.

Ohhh drop it. Don't let me do your thinking for you. I am not the president.

He had good points independent of what I thought about it.

641 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:00pm

re: #625 Danny

Unfunded mandates have grown out of control, and this health care proposal is more of the same - it will not be revenue neutral, and the CBO's most conservative (favorable) figures show it will be out of whack after 10 years - and that's with the most favorable situation.

642 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:15pm

re: #613 Charles

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

Sorry to hear it. Is there smoke pouring out of something important?

643 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:19pm

Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.

Anybody hurl?

644 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:20pm

re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.

645 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:57:39pm

re: #637 LSD

The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.

That's the only part I think that may need a government funded assistance program

With tax breaks.

646 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:03pm

OT:
Now batting... number 2... Derek Jeter... who has already tied Lou Gehrig's record for hits as a NY Yankee...

647 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:06pm

re: #641 lawhawk

Unfunded mandates have grown out of control, and this health care proposal is more of the same - it will not be revenue neutral, and the CBO's most conservative (favorable) figures show it will be out of whack after 10 years - and that's with the most favorable situation.

This Dogfish Head IPA is definitely too damn strong. I read your first two words as "unfunded manatees".

648 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:09pm

re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.

I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.

649 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:20pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.

Do you know if it will take a visa "gift" debit card?

650 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:51pm

re: #635 Racer X

I really was a bit swayed by the speech. But hearing several of our resident lefties spout off about "profit" and "fat cats" and "big corporations" is turning me back the other way. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

I see things a lot clearer now.

That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.

651 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:58:55pm

re: #644 Coracle

Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.

He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.

652 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:03pm

re: #643 Lucius Septimius

Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.

Anybody hurl?

President Obama gave a fine speech. (Really)

Now lets see a bill that matches (gonna' be a real trick).

653 Driftwood  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:09pm

re: #455 LudwigVanQuixote

Cutting costs is one thing. Insurance companies cut the costs of how much care they provide to increase profits. Thousands of Americans die each year because of the shenanigans they play.

Just to be really clear, letting people die for financial gain is called murder in Torah law.

Oh for Christ's sake, an insurance company is a still just a business. It does not hold that sort of power over life and death. If you cannot get health care because no third party has agreed to pay for it, you might want examine the motives of those withholding your treatment until they know they'll get paid.

654 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:12pm

re: #608 jaunte

Here's a note on insurance profits:

Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%

[Link: cuttingthroughthefog.blogspot.com...]

I know. Leftists love to trot out whole numbers while ignoring little things like profit margins.

The net profit margin for health insurance is pretty damned far down this list:

[Link: biz.yahoo.com...]

655 yenta-fada  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:18pm

Fact check: [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

656 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:49pm

re: #621 lawhawk

Free screenings and mammograms are probably a good idea, but one that Dr. Barrett (linked earlier by Charles) doesn't agree with. It's not necessarily going to cut costs either.

The pre-existing condition issue means that insurers would have to raise premiums for everyone else to cover the costs incurred by someone coming into their plans that have some preexisting condition.

The free procedures, well they're really screenings anyway, cut costs by catching ealry disease so that's a good benefit for everyone.

I was confused on the pre-existing condition issue. I like it for sure. The problem here is the larger problem with healthcare currently. When you don't have insurance, you're forced to the ER which is a worse economic burden.

657 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 6:59:58pm

re: #624 Charpete67

?...you're saying that a public option won't crowd out the private sector option over time?

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

658 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #631 LudwigVanQuixote

Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.

No, it's economic illiteracy.

659 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:07pm

re: #651 NJDhockeyfan

He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.

So, no.

660 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:08pm

re: #642 Occasional Reader

Sorry to hear it. Is there smoke pouring out of something important?

Not yet -- I'm sitting here watching the processes rage and killing the ones that need killin', but you'd probably be surprised at how much work it takes to keep things running well.

661 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #640 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh drop it. Don't let me do your thinking for you. I am not the president.

He had good points independent of what I thought about it.

Hee hee! No worries there.

I didn't mean to hit a nerve. I value your input. Just being honest about why I have drifted back towards being against the plan.

662 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:12pm

re: #647 Occasional Reader

This Dogfish Head IPA is definitely too damn strong. I read your first two words as "unfunded manatees".

60 or 90 minute?

663 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:16pm

re: #631 LudwigVanQuixote

Or when you look at the system as a whole and see that the profits taken by insurance companies are part of the overhead to getting your care. It is not economically illiterate, rather looking at the big picture.

And profits "taken" by farmers are part of me getting my food.

And profits "taken" by tailors are part of me getting my clothing.

Etc.

664 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:38pm

This seems on topic, and it's the first time all three verses appear together. If you know the Valve game Portal ("The cake is a lie!"), then you know this song.

Still Alive--ObamaCare version.
To the tune of Still Alive
Play the song, then sing along!

This was a triumph.
I’m going to sign the bill today
And now Obamacare is law: It’s happened!

Nancy Pelosi
Well she was the first
to understand
What it cost for all of us
Except the ones who are dead.

So we took the doctors and we showed them the State
And we told them quietly to set a new rate
But they’re all a bunch of jerks
And the system didn’t work
For the people who are still alive.


.

You’re not even angry.
You and your astroturf town hall.
Arlen Specter said you were
unhelpful

You shouldn’t have shouted
You shouldn’t have brought a gun that day.
Now your names are on the list I had my staffers review!

Pre-existing medical conditions were found
And you’re out of luck if you
so much as feel down
So when you’re lying in your grave
Think of all the bucks you’ve saved
for the people who are still alive.

.

Congress is waiting
Tell Harry Reid the bill is signed
Tell them all that we are now immortal

Round up the schoolkids
Round up the old, the poor, the young
Congress has its work to do and we will need all of you

And your precious bodily fluids intact
And we’ll build the system on our grandchildren’s backs
Because nothing comes free
But it exists to serve me
Just like the people who are still alive.

665 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:42pm

re: #643 Lucius Septimius

Poop. I missed the drinking thread whilst watching oldest boy's football practice.

Anybody hurl?

Yes. Joe Wilson Sr.

666 yenta-fada  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:44pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

You don't need a paypal account to use paypal.

You mean you just use your credit card through Paypal?

667 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:45pm

Looks like Rep. Joe Wilson is the number one trending topic on Twitter.

He's the one that yelled out "liar."

668 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:45pm

re: #646 lawhawk

OT:
Now batting... number 2... Derek Jeter... who has already tied Lou Gehrig's record for hits as a NY Yankee...

Thanks. I'm watching it now.

Damn...ball four.

669 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:00:56pm

re: #652 jcm

President Obama gave a fine speech. (Really)

Now lets see a bill that matches (gonna' be a real trick).

Not likely -- too many political debts to pay.

670 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:00pm

Obama's Prescription for Unnecessary Health Care May Need a Second Opinion
President Obama's prescription for those receiving unnecessary tests and treatments faces skepticism from some doctors:

President Obama has a prescription for those receiving unnecessary tests and treatments: focus on what's important and add an ounce of prevention.

"Things like mammograms and cancer screenings and immunizations -- common-sense measures that will save us billions of dollars in future medical costs," he said at a town hall meeting hosted by AARP last month.

It seems reasonable enough that "unnecessary" tests can add up, and "necessary" tests like cancer screenings might catch disease early enough to prevent expensive medical procedures and prescription drugs down the line.

Or maybe not.

"When you talk about prevention that involves visiting a doctor and stumbling upon a high cholesterol that you didn't know about or a high blood pressure, that kind of medical prevention almost inevitably leads to more medical things being done, more medications being prescribed," Dr. Abraham Verghese of the Stanford University School of Medicine told FOX News.

After more tests, a patient with high cholesterol could be prescribed a statin, which might reduce his chance of a heart attack. But because only one or two men among several thousand with high cholesterol might suffer a heart attack, that ounce of prevention could be too costly.

"If you're looking at a population of men, for every life you save, it costs $150,000 to extend life by one year, in terms of statin use," Verghese said.

And take prostate cancer. The current Prostate Specific Antigen or PSA screenings are sensitive enough to detect cancers that may never even impair patients. But doctors can't yet predict which are harmless and which are deadly, meaning that radiation or surgery could leave some of those with harmless cancers feeling worse than if they'd been never been treated. ...

671 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:25pm

re: #666 yenta-fada

You mean you just use your credit card through Paypal?

Yes. When you click on Charles' pay pal link, you will simply pay with a credit or debit card. No need for you to have an account.

672 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:46pm

re: #665 Racer X

Yes. Joe Wilson Sr.

It ain't a party till somebody pukes.

673 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:46pm

The dirty little secret is that preventive care is actually MORE expensive.

674 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:57pm

re: #613 Charles

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

Is there another way you can point me to?
Because when I click-
"Don't have a PayPal account?"
"Use your credit card or bank account (where available). Continue"

It goes nowhere.

675 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:01:57pm

So... the legions of clerks that will be required to manage any 'government' option are going to be new hires or will the work be contracted out to the evil insurance companies?

676 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:01pm

re: #662 Lucius Septimius

60 or 90 minute?


Love the 60...90...not so much.

677 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:16pm

re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

Except that the whole death panel thing and everything else was actually a lie.

There is nothing low class about speaking the truth.

678 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:21pm

re: #673 JohnH

The dirty little secret is that preventive care is actually MORE expensive.

Than what? You have numbers?

679 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:21pm

re: #668 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks. I'm watching it now.

Damn...ball four.

Zionist!

680 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:23pm

re: #644 Coracle
re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.

It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.

681 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:25pm

re: #656 marjoriemoon

The free procedures, well they're really screenings anyway, cut costs by catching ealry disease so that's a good benefit for everyone.

The argument is that the number of procedures done versus the number of people who will benefit from early detection is not cost-effective. If you're one of those who have a disease caught early via those screenings benefit, but if you're the bean counter trying to make the numbers work - you'd be in a bind.

682 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:27pm

re: #662 Lucius Septimius

60 or 90 minute?

90. That explains it.

683 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:29pm

re: #649 LSD

Do you know if it will take a visa "gift" debit card?

I don't know- sorry.

684 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:43pm

re: #655 yenta-fada

Fact check: [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Ouch!

685 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:02:44pm

re: #638 JohnH

OT: is this really the most pressing issue that needed a joint session of Congress?

* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!

686 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:07pm

re: #648 Charles

Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.

I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.

I think he's been sick over the distortions. Everyone has and he wanted to set it straight. Any president would have said the same thing anyway. It's his job to do so. Besides, he never mentioned anyone by name which would have been wrong.

687 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:25pm

re: #678 Coracle

It's simple math. If you run a bunch of tests on lots of people hoping to catch the one that might have or might get the problem you will spend more money than if you just treated the one who actually got the problem.

688 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:28pm

re: #657 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

we will have to agree to disagree...but listen to Obama's own words.

689 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:03:35pm

re: #651 NJDhockeyfan

He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.

She wasn't the only one screaming about killin gramma.

690 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:01pm

re: #608 jaunte

Here's a note on insurance profits:

Apple Computer's profit is 14.88%
Microsoft 24.9%

[Link: cuttingthroughthefog.blogspot.com...]

FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%

691 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:07pm

re: #689 marjoriemoon

She wasn't the only one screaming about killin gramma.

For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.

692 yenta-fada  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:13pm

re: #671 reine.de.tout

Thanks.

693 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:19pm

re: #676 BignJames

Love the 60...90...not so much.

RINO!

/or something like that

694 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:35pm

re: #680 mikey_dallas

re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.

Except that Palin et al really did lie in the most cynical and base way. They deserve to be called on it. Period.

695 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:46pm

On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards

696 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:48pm

Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats

is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?

697 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:51pm

re: #685 alegrias

* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!

Actually, he said:

As any American who is still looking for work or a way to pay their bills will tell you, we are by no means out of the woods. A full and vibrant recovery is many months away.

698 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:53pm

re: #650 Coracle

That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.

* * *
Pres. Obama is trying to appeal to HIS OWN BLUE DOG democrats. They're the ones not buying his plan.

699 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:57pm

re: #680 mikey_dallas

re: #626 mikey_dallas

Charles, I agree with you, but you have to admit it was a low class move of Obama to call his critics liars, too. Also unprecedented in a Presidential address to a joint session of Congress.

It was too subtle a difference for me, Coracle. He didn't imply or say that he thought his critics were being fooled or were being misled, so I would have to say, without having the direct quotes from the speech in front of me, that he was calling the critics liars.

Not calling them liars directly gives them a the choice to back away from their lies and save face or own their lies. Calling them liars is a direct challenge, not allowing any wiggle room. I know how that made all the difference in a court marshal case, once upon a time.

700 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:04:59pm

re: #613 Charles

I don't like to do this, but if you feel like chipping something in to keep LGF running, now might be a good time.

(There's a Paypal link in the left column.)

We may not agree on politics, but I bet we can all agree to chip in a few bucks. Just takes a couple of minutes.

701 Code Red 21  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:08pm

Hit the tip jar we need to keep the head Lizard in business and the hamsters fed.

702 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:24pm

re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote

Except that Palin et al really did lie in the most cynical and base way. They deserve to be called on it. Period.

maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...

703 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:24pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.

Context is everything there. They, the WH, came after her because of her editorial in the WSJ today.

704 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:25pm

re: #695 Edgesitter

On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards

Edwards is why loser pays is so important

705 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:29pm

re: #651 NJDhockeyfan

He called Sarah Palin a liar without mentioning her by name.

But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?

706 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:41pm

re: #414 Coracle

Except he didn't.

Yes, he did.

Finally, many in this chamber – particularly on the Republican side of the aisle – have long insisted that reforming our medical malpractice laws can help bring down the cost of health care. I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I have talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. So I am proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine.

He didn't address lawyers once but he did mention doctors.

707 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:44pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

For all we know- he was thinking of glnn bck.

I think he mentioned politicians before he mentioned that part.

708 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:45pm

re: #650 Coracle

That's too bad. Do you think the lefties here dictate to the President? Seems like he was trying to cool the progressive jets a little himself.

Yep, he lectured the progressives by name, than scolded the right.

709 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:46pm

Not enough votes. 44 moderate House Dems are opposed.

According to Drudge.

This would be for HR 3200.

710 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:51pm

If you've got a Kindle you can also help out by subscribing to LGF on it here
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

711 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:05:58pm

re: #648 Charles

Sarah Palin lied about "death panels." I don't agree that it was "low class" to point that out. It was a cynical lie to scare the lunatic base.

I know, I suck. But I completely agree with Obama that people like Palin are lying about what's in the health care reform legislation.

The President is also lying, when he says that "if you like your healthcare plan, if you like your healthcare provider, nobody's going to take that away from you". It is simply not true. I could call it mistaken if not for the hundreds (it seems) of repetitions of this phrase by the President.

712 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:03pm

Thank for the donations, folks. Greatly appreciated.

713 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:04pm

I still like my idea of funding healthcare with a national swear jar:

714 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:07pm

re: #698 alegrias

* * *
Pres. Obama is trying to appeal to HIS OWN BLUE DOG democrats. They're the ones not buying his plan.

Ha!

Don't distract us with FACTS.

715 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:11pm

re: #704 DrNaughty

Edwards is why loser pays is so important

Eggsactly

716 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:19pm

re: #627 marjoriemoon

Well unless I'm misunderstanding the whole concept, some insurance company is holding your policy and that company makes a profit. Is it something different?

We're talking about free to the consumer. Having the costs absorbed elsewhere for free mammographies and such saves in the long run because illness can be diagnosed early when its less costly to deal with.

No, my company is self-insured. It collects the premiums, and hires a staff of people to process the claims. They have costs, but they make no "profit". The premiums pay the cost of claims and the cost to have employees processing the claims, but there are no investors or company that makes a profit.

As to the "free" mammographies - yes, I agree, having a medical procedure with the cost absorbed elsewhere is very nice and can save in the long run if it detects things early on, when it's less expensive to treat. I was just pointing out that they aren't "free". Somebody pays something for those "free" diagnostic procedures.

717 Kilroy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:24pm

I wish I could use Paypal at my local bar where we all agree that they're death panels--but I still left a tip for LGF!

718 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:26pm

re: #627 marjoriemoon

Cost savings for screenings depends on how often the condition exists.

If the cost of 1,000 cancer screenings is $100 each (pulling numbers out of my backside here!) catches 200 cancers that cost $10,000 each, then we're ahead of the game. If it catches just 5 cases of cancer at that same $10,000,
then there's no cost savings.

Please note, I'm not saying that screening shouldn't be done- ANY life saved is valuable. I'm simply looking at cost savingshere.

719 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:34pm

re: #676 BignJames

Love the 60...90...not so much.

Really? What's ya got against the 90?

Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?

720 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:45pm

re: #655 yenta-fada

Yup, that's the card dealt from the bottom of the deck.

721 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:52pm

re: #690 mikey_dallas

FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%

that makes for a lot of 'walking around' money.

722 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:54pm

re: #690 mikey_dallas

FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%

WOO HOO!

I mean... um... that's unconscionable!

723 cronus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:55pm
724 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:06:57pm

re: #686 marjoriemoon

I think he's been sick over the distortions. Everyone has and he wanted to set it straight. Any president would have said the same thing anyway. It's his job to do so. Besides, he never mentioned anyone by name which would have been wrong.

Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.

There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.

725 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:11pm

re: #678 Coracle

Here.

726 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:16pm

re: #705 LudwigVanQuixote

But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?

Offend my sensibilities? WTF are you talking about? I am not defending her.

727 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:24pm

Rep. Joe Wilson has achieved fame tonight.

/

728 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:39pm

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

Really? What's ya got against the 90?

Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?

[bows head in reverence]

I have.

729 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:49pm

re: #687 JohnH

It's simple math. If you run a bunch of tests on lots of people hoping to catch the one that might have or might get the problem you will spend more money than if you just treated the one who actually got the problem.

You assume a) that preventive care consists of a bunch of tests, and b) that treatment is less expensive than some small number of tests. What if preventive care includes - or is even dominated by things like responsible eating and exercise, and the tests that are performed on average cost a small fraction of makor intervention? My scenario is just as likely and more common sense than yours unless you have numbers to say otherwise.

730 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:07:53pm

re: #702 Charpete67

maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...

Well, that would be the biblical way of phrasing it. Liar however is sufficient.

731 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:05pm

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

Really? What's ya got against the 90?

Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?

Still waiting to get a batch out here to the upper left hand corner. Got a Raison D'Etre right now.

732 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:11pm

re: #703 JohnH

Context is everything there. They, the WH, came after her because of her editorial in the WSJ today.

Right- because I'm sure they wrote the speech today.

733 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:18pm

re: #726 NJDhockeyfan

Offend my sensibilities? WTF are you talking about? I am not defending her.

Then I misread you and I apologize.

734 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:22pm

re: #644 Coracle

Did he call his critics liars, or the criticisms lies? Subtle but important difference.

The difference is neither subtle nor important. It is merely grammar. A subtle and important difference exists between the words falsehood and lie, but not between lie and liar.

735 n in wi  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:33pm

re: #685 alegrias

* * * **
Did you miss the first paragraph in which he said the economy is fixed? Unemployment is at a 25 year high, but who's counting!


Obama's "Mission accomplished" moment

736 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:43pm

Joe Wilson did rattle Obama.

737 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:08:44pm

re: #690 mikey_dallas

FYI, the largest 100 law firms in the country (all private) - the partner's share of revenue to split up in 2008 was 38%

* * * *
Sure they were profitable, after they laid off several of us!

They called it the Valentine's Day Massacre (of lawyers fired) here in DC.

738 calcajun  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:16pm

re: #727 Gus 802

Rep. Joe Wilson has achieved fame tonight.

/

Another legend that will last a lunchtime.

739 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:17pm

re: #733 LudwigVanQuixote

Then I misread you and I apologize.

Apology accepted. Coulda happened to any lizard.

;)

740 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:20pm

re: #736 Chekote

Joe Wilson did rattle Obama.

Facts are usually terribly upsetting to charlatans...

741 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:22pm

the zero in the recent past SAID GOV'T COULD RUN IT CHEAPER IF THAT ISN'T A BOLD FACED LIE NOTHING IS!

Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats

is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?

742 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:22pm

re: #730 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, that would be the biblical way of phrasing it. Liar however is sufficient.

...it's the term he used when he was talking to pastors on a conference call a few weeks back...he accused some people on the right of bearing false witness.

743 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:28pm

re: #737 alegrias

But the economy is getting better.

/sarc

744 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:31pm

re: #728 Occasional Reader

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

That has enough hops in it to cause my face to want to implode like a black hole.

It is marvelous, but vicious.

745 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:09:48pm

re: #688 Charpete67

we will have to agree to disagree...but listen to Obama's own words.



'Fraid I don't see anything but a goal of eliminating employer-based coverage, and the whole thing is clips out of context.

Single payer is not going to happen under Barack Obama's administration.

Agree to disagree then.

746 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:01pm

re: #732 Sharmuta

Right- because I'm sure they wrote the speech today.

Well, they were out there responding to her TODAY.

747 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:02pm

re: #705 LudwigVanQuixote

But what about the fact that she actually did lie? Does it offend your sensibilities to acknowledge that?

Sarah Palin didn't win the election. She's a citizen now, not even a governor. Obama, on the other hand is the President of the United States and he lied to the American people tonight. Forgive me for not getting wound up over Palin's hyperbole.

748 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:03pm

re: #737 alegrias

I know a firm that mandated two week unpaid vacations for everyone, so they could avoid firing anyone. No industry has gone untouched in this recession.

749 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:04pm

re: #743 Chekote

But the economy is getting better.

/sarc

Just like the Mamma Cass Song...

"... getting better every day..."

750 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:08pm

I'm either in love or Mandy got caught on camera.

751 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:09pm

re: #740 DrNaughty

I am sure Joe Wilson will make the talk shows. They are so predictible. Hannity will have him on.

752 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:11pm

re: #729 Coracle

Here's the study that thought may have come from:

Many politicians are betting that pending health care legislation will save taxpayers billions of dollars by increasing support for preventive care and ultimately reducing the need for expensive medical interventions in the years to come. But a new study adds to the evidence that while preventive health care may save lives, it does not necessarily save money.[Link: prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com...]
753 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:19pm

re: #737 alegrias

* * * *
Sure they were profitable, after they laid off several of us!

They called it the Valentine's Day Massacre (of lawyers fired) here in DC.

Sorry to hear that, alegrias. Apologies for my joke upthread.

754 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:23pm

re: #706 Wendya

He didn't address lawyers once but he did mention doctors.

Because doctors are being hurt.

Wanting to reform malpractice laws, of course, doesn't affect lawyers at all.
/

755 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:25pm

re: #727 Gus 802

I'm sure he's a right wing hero.

756 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:26pm

re: #695 Edgesitter

On the subject of tort reform, think John Edwards

* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.

That's some people's idea of presidential.

757 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:37pm

re: #738 calcajun

Another legend that will last a lunchtime.

Yeah, might make a few morning news programs for an interview.

758 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:51pm

Remember, Obama never spouts whoppers.

/really

759 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:52pm

re: #746 JohnH

Well, they were out there responding to her TODAY.

Bit different than thinking the speech was about her. Probably was, but to think it was from today's WSJ is silly.

760 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:10:59pm

re: #755 Killgore Trout

I'm sure he's a right wing hero.

You're right!

Forgot about that.

761 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:05pm

re: #755 Killgore Trout

I'm sure he's a right wing hero.

Not for this right-winger.
Please, Killgore.

762 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:19pm

re: #756 alegrias

* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.

That's some people's idea of presidential.

One has to realize that the media knew all about Edwards and decided to be quiet about it untill he dropped out of the campaign.

763 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:19pm

re: #745 SanFranciscoZionist

'Fraid I don't see anything but a goal of eliminating employer-based coverage, and the whole thing is clips out of context.

Single payer is not going to happen under Barack Obama's administration.

Agree to disagree then.

you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?

764 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:23pm

re: #757 Gus 802

Yeah, might make a few morning news programs for an interview.

Fox, I'm sure, will love to have him.

765 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:31pm

re: #744 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

That has enough hops in it to cause my face to want to implode like a black hole.

It is marvelous, but vicious.

There is no pain; you are receding...

766 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:32pm

Note: I noticed that the stalker blog is screaming that I revealed personal information I got from Paypal donations, and trying to get Paypal to cancel my account.

This is a rotten lie, as with most of the garbage posted at that site. I have never revealed personal information from Paypal donations and I never will.

Those obsessed morons seem to think that the only way I can track them down is by Paypal donations, but they are very mistaken.

767 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:11:49pm

re: #727 Gus 802

Rep. Joe Wilson has achieved fame tonight.

/

Look for a cavity search, IRS audit of Mr Wilson./

768 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:03pm

re: #742 Charpete67

...it's the term he used when he was talking to pastors on a conference call a few weeks back...he accused some people on the right of bearing false witness.

Well he was telling the truth.

769 McJenny50  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:06pm

re: #415 Killgore Trout

I'm still plenty skeptical but I'm becoming more accepting of whatever it is that they are going to pass. The Republicans don't have ideas and are not going to participate in solving the problem. Much of the criticisms are based on lies and distortions which leads me to believe that there isn't much real criticism to be had. I'm willing to take my chances with whatever the Dems have planned. It's better than nothing.

Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.

Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find "common ground" on healthcare reform.

But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.

770 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:13pm

re: #763 Charpete67

you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?

Once the government's nose gets into the tent. It's like the 9th Army taking the Remagen Bridge over the Rhine...

771 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:34pm

re: #731 jcm

Still waiting to get a batch out here to the upper left hand corner. Got a Raison D'Etre right now.

Yum.

I'm fresh out of decent beer. I need to go get myself some of this.

772 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:43pm

re: #723 cronus

Congressional Budget Expert Says Preventive Care Will Raise -- Not Cut -- Costs

Thanks. I will read that. Then I'll need to compare that to the new proposals that will be on the table in the aftermath of this speech.

773 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:51pm

re: #767 avanti

Look for a cavity search, IRS audit of Mr Wilson./

"Get me Dr. Emanuel on the phone. I would like to get Mr. Wilson added to the panel."

//

774 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:12:53pm

re: #747 Wendya

Sarah Palin didn't win the election. She's a citizen now, not even a governor. Obama, on the other hand is the President of the United States and he lied to the American people tonight. Forgive me for not getting wound up over Palin's hyperbole.

Plenty of others in office repeated her smears. The GOP does not get off the hook that easily.

775 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:05pm

re: #766 Charles

Stalker blog?

776 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:07pm

re: #747 Wendya

the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package

Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats

is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?

777 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:18pm

You know, if he had just trotted out those styrofoam greek columns tonight...

778 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:32pm

re: #766 Charles

Note: I noticed that the stalker blog is screaming that I revealed personal information I got from Paypal donations, and trying to get Paypal to cancel my account.

This is a rotten lie, as with most of the garbage posted at that site. I have never revealed personal information from Paypal donations and I never will.

Those obsessed morons seem to think that the only way I can track them down is by Paypal donations, but they are very mistaken.

WOW.

779 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:35pm

re: #756 alegrias

* * **
That rascally JOhn Edwards, of the two Americas, spending your campaign contributions on his mistress & for child support and to get another man to man up and admit paternity.

That's some people's idea of presidential.

But thankfully not enough!

780 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:36pm

re: #725 lawhawk

Here.

Thanks. I'll read that too. Then compare it to what proposals emerge.

781 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:37pm

re: #750 jcm

Holy shit! LMAO!

782 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:39pm

re: #774 LudwigVanQuixote

Plenty of others in office repeated her smears. The GOP does not get off the hook that easily.

However the Democrats never get called about telling the elderly that the Republicans will take away their social security checks...

783 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:49pm

re: #776 yochanan

the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package

Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats

is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?

So you reject the science because a good republican should?

784 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:50pm

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

Really? What's ya got against the 90?

Have you ever had the 120 minute IPA?


after beer gets much above 8% abv...it's a little sweet for my tastes

785 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:13:56pm

re: #708 avanti

Yep, he lectured the progressives by name, than scolded the right.

* * *
Obama is trying to get the wobbly Democrats in line.
Some Democrats don't want to get fired by their constituents.

786 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:01pm

re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.

There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.

I agree.

Speaking of which - Charles Rangle should be making figurines in a wood shop in a Federal Penitentiary.

787 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:10pm

re: #768 LudwigVanQuixote

Well he was telling the truth.

i updinged you for being so far in the tank committed to Obama

788 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:16pm

re: #763 Charpete67

you didn't see him say that single payer is not possible now, but a public option would transition into a single payer in 15-20 years?

I think he's mistaken, and he ain't gonna be president in 15-20 years.

789 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:23pm

Reading for beer lovers:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

790 flyers1974  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm

re: #712 Charles

When I try to type the information required under "billing information" nothing happens.

791 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm

AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama

The culprit was South Carolina rep Joe Wilson, who felt moved to act when The One told what was, in fact, a lie. Although certainly not his biggest of the night: Where this jackass gets off lecturing Americans on civility after his cretinous cronies spent a month demagoging the hell out of every protester in sight is beyond me. You’re Mr. Clean, aren’t you, champ?


Commenters...

Every word out of 0bama’s mouth is a lie, the entire republican party could (should?) have stood up during the speech and chanted “liar” through the whole thing, at that would have been just fine in my book.


There we have it.

792 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:43pm

re: #744 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #719 Lucius Septimius

That has enough hops in it to cause my face to want to implode like a black hole.

It is marvelous, but vicious.

Just remember that hops are related to cannabis.

793 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:44pm

The President pledged that he would not sign a bill "that increases the deficit on single dime" to rousing applause.

Assuming that there are (arguably unsustainable) deficits as far as they eye can see, this would indicate that the bill that he signs into law will be the first government program that costs nothing, correct?

Is he an alchemist, the greatest financial mind in American history, a cynical liar or simply a man who believes his own hubris?

Methinks this may be Obama's "read my lips" moment.

794 Edgesitter  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:46pm

I am retired, and my former employer will quickly dump me on the 'public option' if it suits their bottom line. The 'public option' will quickly become the ONLY option and that will be socialized medicine through the back door.

795 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:46pm

re: #648 Charles

Charles,
To me the whole death panel thing is NOT what Palin has said, it is directly related to HR 3200 provisions for panels to determine what are the "cost effective" medical treatments to be allowed.

This leads to the whole issue of Quality Adjusted Remaining Years (QARY), and if you need $20K in medical treatment and that will buy you 3 more years of quality life, and a year of quality life is determined by one of these panels to be worth $5K, then you only get $15K of benefit from $20 K of medical treatment. Treatment DENIED. You don't get 3 more years of "quality life", you get nothing but what amounts to a death sentence by denial of treatment that would extend quality life for you.

The panel is not killing you, it's just not giving you treatment that would save you.
Don't like the death panel terminology? Fine. But the practical effect of the issue is what we should be debating.

HR 3200 doesn't specify QARY analysis, but it does point to something that is either that or substantially similar to that.

Obama won't address that matter directly (or even indirectly), he just tosses the issue off as a lie and leaves it at that.

796 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:14:51pm

re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.

There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.

Then you have no issue with Rep. Wilson?
For the record, despite the President's repeated lies, I do not think it was apropriate for Mr. Wilson to spout off like that. We have a Congress, not some shabby European parliament, where that sort of hooting is apparently encouraged..

797 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:32pm
798 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:37pm

ncreasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that "the buck stops here." Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.
re: #776 yochanan

the zero uses plenty of hyperbole. on global warming on the porkulus package

Occulata palingenia haterus moonbats

is there a trap to catch them other than the gov'r of alaska?

799 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:41pm

re: #735 n in wi

Obama's "Mission accomplished" moment

* * * **
N in WI,

You're a genius! Touche.
Totally laughable.

800 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:46pm

re: #702 Charpete67

maybe he should have said they were "bearing false witness"...

You were instructed to forget that by the men in black, were you not?

801 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:49pm

re: #750 jcm

I'm either in love or Mandy got caught on camera.


[Video]

Niiice!

802 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:15:50pm

re: #771 Lucius Septimius

Yum.

I'm fresh out of decent beer. I need to go get myself some of this.

Bookmarked, I'm gonna' have to head down to my Beer Mart and find me some of that.

803 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:23pm

re: #800 haakondahl

You were instructed to forget that by the men in black, were you not?

how did you know?...

804 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:27pm

re: #784 BignJames

after beer gets much above 8% abv...it's a little sweet for my tastes

With a IBU of 120?

805 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:16:35pm

re: #752 jaunte

Here's the study that thought may have come from:

Thanks. "Not necessarily saving money" and "costing more" are different claims. And only part of the proposal, of course. Clearly even those who don't think preventive care is a net cost savings disagree on the degree it is neutral or negative, so it all needs to be folded in to consideration with what is in fact being proposed.

806 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:15pm

re: #787 Charpete67

i updinged you for being so far in the tank committed to Obama

You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.

However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.

807 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:23pm

Stuff to do. Good night.

808 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:39pm

re: #791 Killgore Trout

AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obamat.

/knocking Obama's speech right out of the news cycle

809 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:51pm

re: #807 Occasional Reader

Stuff to do. Good night.

Night.

810 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:17:53pm

re: #805 Coracle
Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!

811 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:01pm

re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote

You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.

However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.

One does have to look hard though to find that needle in the haystack at times

812 right_wing2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:01pm

re: #750 jcm

Beautiful!

813 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:18pm

re: #681 lawhawk

The argument is that the number of procedures done versus the number of people who will benefit from early detection is not cost-effective. If you're one of those who have a disease caught early via those screenings benefit, but if you're the bean counter trying to make the numbers work - you'd be in a bind.

I'm sorry hawk, I'm not following you.

Mammography screening is generally done over the age of 35. Currently, it's free over that age, unless you have additional diagnostic procedures (have a family history) then you may have to pay something.

Colonoscopies are generally suggested after age 50 so you're not getting these screenings unless you meet those ages. Not that anyone would want to get a colonoscopy unless they need to.

814 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:24pm

re: #810 jaunte

Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!

He took preventative measures...

*ducks*

815 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #776 yochanan

You sound like you're channeling tfk, there.

816 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:18:58pm

re: #769 McJenny50

It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.

817 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:10pm

re: #806 LudwigVanQuixote

You are pretty foolish if you think that this makes me his biggest fan. I really do not care for much of his foreign policy.

However, you are even more foolish if I think it is a good conservative value to simply assume that any true statement made by a Dem must somehow be rejected, or if I think that the right has carte blanche to misbehave.

lighten up Francis...I was kidding...

818 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:17pm

re: #753 Occasional Reader

Sorry to hear that, alegrias. Apologies for my joke upthread.

* * * *
No problema, OR. Plenty of laid off people are laughing at this excellent news that our economy's "back from the brink".

819 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:19:49pm

re: #796 haakondahl

Then you have no issue with Rep. Wilson?
For the record, despite the President's repeated lies, I do not think it was apropriate for Mr. Wilson to spout off like that. We have a Congress, not some shabby European parliament, where that sort of hooting is apparently encouraged..

And what were the "repeated lies" in Obama's speech for one? For another, you are correct about decorum.

Given that the entire bill has been the subject of the grossest and worst lies and distortions by the "patriotic" opposition, there is nothing wrong with the President using his time to speak to set the record straight. Mr. Wilson can lie, that the president was a liar on his own time.

820 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:00pm

re: #816 Killgore Trout

It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.

We agree there is a need for healthcare reform.

What is in debate is the attempt by the left to control your healthcare.

821 Racer X  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:01pm

Whew!

I finally caught up.

And now I'm gonna go put some salmon on the grill.

(all you guys talking about it the other day made me hungry)

822 Bloodnok  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:03pm

re: #790 flyers1974

When I try to type the information required under "billing information" nothing happens.

Make sure you select the amount and press "Update Total" before you put the billing info in or it will erase it.

823 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:19pm

re: #804 jcm

With a IBU of 120?

Yeah...I'm a hop head...I think of 120 as..."lightly hopped"

824 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:22pm

re: #791 Killgore Trout

AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama


There we have it.

Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.

Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.

825 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:34pm

re: #811 DrNaughty

the kid was in congress digging in a pile of road apples and his mom asks him why he is doing it and he answers with this much horse shit there got to be a pony somewhere.

826 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:20:47pm

And I don't mean Michelle Obama.

827 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:00pm

re: #823 BignJames

Yeah...I'm a hop head...I think of 120 as..."lightly hopped"

LOL!

Beer debate and tasting!

828 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:04pm

re: #791 Killgore Trout

AllahPundit: Video: GOP congressman yells “liar” at Obama


There we have it.

Pointing out the abundant ugliness on the right does little to address the merits of the bill, the proposal, or the speech; take your pick.

And so there we have what? Killgore, I do not read comments at Hot Air anymore. You know why? Because they're mired in ignorance and to put it mildly, very bad manners. I come *here*, and I don't go *there*.
Is there some point you wish to prove, "There we have it", that is buttressed by quoting comments from a site that most here won't even go to?

829 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:22pm

re: #825 yochanan

the kid was in congress digging in a pile of road apples and his mom asks him why he is doing it and he answers with this much horse shit there got to be a pony somewhere.

lol precisely...

830 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:27pm

re: #824 Charles

Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.

Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.

I don't think my wife is laughing ...

831 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:32pm

re: #803 Charpete67

how did you know?...

Check my closet. Then forget what you saw.

832 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:34pm

re: #816 Killgore Trout

It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.

A very Obama-ish position. The only serious people are people that agree with him, and if you don't agree with him then you aren't serious in solving the problem. Republicans HAVE health care reform proposals. You may not like them, but they have them. They want to prevent Obama's vision for reform. That doesn't make them not serious.

833 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:21:40pm

re: #793 MacDuff

The President pledged that he would not sign a bill "that increases the deficit on single dime" to rousing applause.

Assuming that there are (arguably unsustainable) deficits as far as they eye can see, this would indicate that the bill that he signs into law will be the first government program that costs nothing, correct?

Is he an alchemist, the greatest financial mind in American history, a cynical liar or simply a man who believes his own hubris?

Methinks this may be Obama's "read my lips" moment.

That is possible. It's certainly a tall order.

834 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:02pm

re: #762 DrNaughty

One has to realize that the media knew all about Edwards and decided to be quiet about it untill he dropped out of the campaign.

* * * *
Edward's wife was in on it too; how grotesque for all involved.

835 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:28pm

re: #716 reine.de.tout

No, my company is self-insured. It collects the premiums, and hires a staff of people to process the claims. They have costs, but they make no "profit". The premiums pay the cost of claims and the cost to have employees processing the claims, but there are no investors or company that makes a profit.

As to the "free" mammographies - yes, I agree, having a medical procedure with the cost absorbed elsewhere is very nice and can save in the long run if it detects things early on, when it's less expensive to treat. I was just pointing out that they aren't "free". Somebody pays something for those "free" diagnostic procedures.

Ain't nuthin free of course, but the consumer gets the savings which is a good thing.

Mr. Moon was just explaining your healthcare to me. You don't have investors. Makes sense.

Why would people object to a government plan run the same way? Especially if it already exists?

836 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:33pm

re: #797 taxfreekiller

So, the deal on the illegals getting free health care.

Any one on TV lie about that tonight?

Nope.

837 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:34pm

re: #832 mikey_dallas

A very Obama-ish position. The only serious people are people that agree with him, and if you don't agree with him then you aren't serious in solving the problem. Republicans HAVE health care reform proposals. You may not like them, but they have them. They want to prevent Obama's vision for reform. That doesn't make them not serious.

The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with Republican proposals that have been rejected...

838 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:57pm

re: #566 marjoriemoon

There are? Can you name any?

My understanding of all of this is

1) healthcare will be required, like auto ins is required to own a car

Owning a car is optional; owning a body is mandatory.

839 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:22:58pm

Just saw this on Drudge

WHIP COUNT: DEMS LACK THE VOTES


At least 44 more moderate Members of the Democrat Caucus have gone on the record in opposition to the current health care bill in the House, a Hill source claims. Likewise, at least 57 liberal Members of the Democrat Caucus have gone on the record saying they will vote against a health care bill without a strong public option.

Unless multiple Democrats flip on their stated position on health care, Speaker Pelosi lacks the votes to pass a bill through the House on the strength of Democrat votes alone.

840 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:01pm

re: #834 alegrias

* * * *
Edward's wife was in on it too; how grotesque for all involved.

Power corrupts..

841 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:29pm

re: #828 haakondahl

Pointing out the abundant ugliness on the right does little to address the merits of the bill, the proposal, or the speech; take your pick.

And so there we have what? Killgore, I do not read comments at Hot Air anymore. You know why? Because they're mired in ignorance and to put it mildly, very bad manners. I come *here*, and I don't go *there*.
Is there some point you wish to prove, "There we have it", that is buttressed by quoting comments from a site that most here won't even go to?

NO but it does force them to actually consider doing their jobs and coming up with something useful.

842 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:33pm

re: #810 jaunte

Thanks for not adding the extra syllable to preventive!

Sometimememes I type to fast.

843 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:45pm

re: #838 Salamantis

Owning a car is optional; owning a body is mandatory.

You can also drive a vehicle on your own properly without insurance.

The only time it is required is when you drive a vehicle on a public street

844 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:46pm

re: #816 Killgore Trout

It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it. They are not serious participants in any solution.

Oh, no. Will they lose your support again in three more hours? How long has this clarity been increasing?

845 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:23:52pm

I'm disabled, I have Epilepsy, and Medicare sucks. Don't do me any favors Obama, if your "Health Insurance Plan" is anything like what I have now. Be afraid America, be very afraid.

846 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:24:38pm

re: #824 Charles

Man. Even Allahpundit's going nuts now.

Michelle and her husband are laughing up their sleeves over this.

BTW,what the hell was that pink thing Michelle was wearing?

Liked both Nancy and Hillary's outfits.

847 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:24:59pm

re: #827 jcm

LOL!

Beer debate and tasting!

When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade

848 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:06pm

re: #845 sngnsgt

But it is better than nothing no?

849 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:10pm

re: #792 Lucius Septimius

Just remember that hops are related to cannabis.

Well, it seems that cannabis is bogarting all the THC.

850 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:36pm

Unmentioned so far:

Just how will the health administrators know how much you have to pay, based on your income? I guess a bunch of pencil pushers in the new health bureaucracy will have full access to all of our tax returns...how wonderful

851 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:46pm

re: #846 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW,what the hell was that pink thing Michelle was wearing?

Liked both Nancy and Hillary's outfits.

It's kind of the standard Jackie Kennedy first lady uniform. Nancy Reagan's was red.

852 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:51pm

some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?

853 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:57pm

"Re: Joe Wilson appreciation Thread Quote

JOE 2012!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 719893

He doesnt realize that his comment just put him in the running for president. He will when the RNC calls him in about 30 minutes."

joe Wilson appreciation thread.

Unfrigging unbelievable.

854 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:25:58pm

re: #839 NJDhockeyfan

Just saw this on Drudge

WHIP COUNT: DEMS LACK THE VOTES

/they value their seats

855 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:02pm

re: #844 haakondahl

Oh, no. Will they lose your support again in three more hours? How long has this clarity been increasing?

u say what I am thinking...I am moving away from the closet...

856 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:03pm

re: #848 LudwigVanQuixote

But it is better than nothing no?

Wow. That's nasty.

857 n in wi  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:04pm

re: #837 DrNaughty

The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with Republican proposals that have been rejected...


That is absolutely false.
The wastebaskets in Nancy Pelosi's office are filled with used botox syringes. The Rep. proposals are in the paper recycling bin.

858 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:13pm

re: #847 BignJames

When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade

If I had the time (damn kids // ) I'd try my hand at home brewing.

859 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:42pm

re: #841 LudwigVanQuixote

NO but it does force them to actually consider doing their jobs and coming up with something useful.

Uh, big negatory, good buddy, but even if that were true, then why wouldn't Killgore simply swing that bat OVER THERE? Not over here, but OVER THERE?

860 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:46pm

re: #839 NJDhockeyfan

All hail Drudge. That guy couldn't hit wrong if it were taped to his fist.

861 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:54pm

re: #786 Racer X

I agree.

Speaking of which - Charles Rangle should be making figurines in a wood shop in a Federal Penitentiary.

* * * *
Federal Penitentiary care is probably better than Veterans Administration care, to which Charles Rangel is legally entitled.

Sad that this Korean War veteran became such a cheat & scam artiste as a politician at the public trough.

But Rangel would never lower himself to accept Veterans Admin. care.

862 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:26:55pm

re: #856 LSD

Wow. That's nasty.

Not meant to be nasty at all. Millions of Americans have nothing.

863 sagehen  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:13pm

re: #653 Driftwood

Oh for Christ's sake, an insurance company is a still just a business. It does not hold that sort of power over life and death. If you cannot get health care because no third party has agreed to pay for it, you might want examine the motives of those withholding your treatment until they know they'll get paid.

Except that if the insurance company has been cashing your premium checks for years, maybe they have more of an obligation to actually keep the promises they made to induce you to buy that policy in the first place.

864 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:18pm

re: #847 BignJames

When the weather cools I intend to brew a rye IPA...and dry hop w/about 4ozs of amarillo/cascade

I like rye IPAs -- not to everyone's taste, though.

865 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:38pm

Has the deductible for ObamaCare been mentioned anywhere?

866 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:41pm

re: #852 yochanan

some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?

...stare in to my eyes...you are feeling sleepy...go to your happy place...love me...love me...

867 im_gumby_damnit  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:44pm

re: #474 Charles

It's a raging debate to be sure!

Personally, I think there are ways to encourage competition without injecting the government into the process. (Frankly, the strategy seems antithetical to the objective.) I think detaching health insurance from employment and allowing competition over state lines would be a better place to start.

That being said, I would be open to a program that provides gap coverage to Americans who slip between the cracks in private care and Medicaid. My understanding is that the number of U.S. citizens (excluding illegal aliens who have access to government care in their home countries) who fall into this category may be relatively small (approximately 8 million people). I would propose that the program be paid for by cuts in less essential programs rather than further taxes or debt.

868 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:27:47pm

re: #858 jcm

If I had the time (damn kids // ) I'd try my hand at home brewing.


It's not difficult...can you make soup?

869 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:01pm

re: #852 yochanan

some one give me a short statement on what the uber liberal university chatting class's POTU$ had to say to day?

It was all lies according to you. There. I just saved you an hour.

870 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:08pm

re: #850 mikey_dallas

Unmentioned so far:

Just how will the health administrators know how much you have to pay, based on your income? I guess a bunch of pencil pushers in the new health bureaucracy will have full access to all of our tax returns...how wonderful

Nah, we'll probably just have to fill out forms declaring our income and sign under penalty of perjury. Sorta like when we do our tax returns.

871 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:19pm

re: #848 LudwigVanQuixote

But it is better than nothing no?

It is better than nothing, but it's also a bunch of bureaucratic BS.

872 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:26pm

re: #853 avanti

"Re: Joe Wilson appreciation Thread Quote

JOE 2012!
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 719893

He doesnt realize that his comment just put him in the running for president. He will when the RNC calls him in about 30 minutes."

joe Wilson appreciation thread.

Unfrigging unbelievable.

Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.

873 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:30pm

re: #864 Lucius Septimius

I like rye IPAs -- not to everyone's taste, though.

Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.

And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.

874 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:42pm

re: #865 NJDhockeyfan

Has the deductible for ObamaCare been mentioned anywhere?

Your freedom...small price for a free colonoscopy.

875 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:45pm

re: #843 DrNaughty

You can also drive a vehicle on your own properly without insurance.

The only time it is required is when you drive a vehicle on a public street

Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?

Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?

876 Mich-again  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:55pm

re: #816 Killgore Trout

It's become increasingly clear to me that Republicans are simply not interested in any healthcare reform and will do what little they can to prevent it.

The GOP supports tort reform. That should be a part of healthcare reform. When the Dems took that right off the table it was obvious they weren't terribly interested in working with Republicans.

877 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:28:56pm

re: #872 Bobibutu

Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.

For good reason

878 LSD  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:04pm

re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote

Not meant to be nasty at all. Millions of Americans have nothing.

And millions of those millions choose to be that way.

879 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:14pm

re: #868 BignJames

It's not difficult...can you make soup?

Main chef and chief bottle washer!

880 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:30pm

re: #860 Coracle

All hail Drudge. That guy couldn't hit wrong if it were taped to his fist.

/I haven't heard anyone say they have the votes to get a "public option" through the Senate, just the opposite

881 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:34pm

re: #795 mikey_dallas

* * * *
Thank you for that concise explanation of the actuarial calculation used in the Veterans Administration and probably, HMOs, to decide whether a patient is WORTH treating!

882 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:37pm

re: #873 LudwigVanQuixote

Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.

And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.

Pa? As in JoePa?

883 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:39pm

re: #861 alegrias

* * * *
Federal Penitentiary care is probably better than Veterans Administration care, to which Charles Rangel is legally entitled.

Sad that this Korean War veteran became such a cheat & scam artiste as a politician at the public trough.

But Rangel would never lower himself to accept Veterans Admin. care.

WE SHOULD DEMAND THAT ALL THE CONGRESSCRITTERS, GET THERE CARE AT THE V.A. so at least then the real heros might get better care.

ncreasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that "the buck stops here." Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

884 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:29:45pm

re: #871 sngnsgt

It is better than nothing, but it's also a bunch of bureaucratic BS.

I don't debate that. That is why I very much liked the proposal to have doctors and health care providers find ways to eliminate waste in gov't programs.

885 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:06pm

re: #839 NJDhockeyfan

Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.

886 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:15pm

re: #833 Coracle

That is possible. It's certainly a tall order.

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

887 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:17pm

re: #875 marjoriemoon

Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?

Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?

If you own more than a driveway there is no need to register it with the government.. as long as it is not driven on a public street or highway.

888 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:43pm

re: #881 alegrias

* * * *
Thank you for that concise explanation of the actuarial calculation used in the Veterans Administration and probably, HMOs, to decide whether a patient is WORTH treating!

my pleasure. I just wish that issue would get some play in the media.

889 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:48pm

re: #875 marjoriemoon

Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?

Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?

Virginia. Just pay the state $400.

Unless they canceled that program.

890 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:30:49pm

I can hear Joe Wilson's cable news talk show defence already:

"Well, he called us liars first!"

891 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:02pm

re: #882 Lucius Septimius

Pa? As in JoePa?

He has been somewhat famous for a certain football team in the same state...

892 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:03pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

Then you don't have to believe it. I will believe it if and when I see it and it makes sense.

893 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:15pm

re: #839 NJDhockeyfan

Just saw this on Drudge

WHIP COUNT: DEMS LACK THE VOTES

HR3200 - The 1 Trillion (or is it 900 billion?) IRS rape/ tax, fee and tax budget buster - must be scrapped.

894 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:41pm

re: #873 LudwigVanQuixote

Only if I am in the mood. I am a Belgian ale drinker first.

And please do not pun on the construction. I am from Pa, not Belgium.

Preference in Belgian Ales? Recommendations? I like New Belgium's 1554 and Abbey.

895 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:31:52pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

The IRS.

896 Chekote  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:04pm

Joe Wilson apologized.

897 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:23pm

re: #876 Mich-again

The GOP supports tort reform.

I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

898 flyers1974  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:39pm

re: #822 Bloodnok

Thanks.

899 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:40pm

re: #885 lawhawk

Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.

It's unfortunate that the fact is that many Democrats value their seat in congress more than obama's pie in the sky.

900 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:55pm

re: #894 jcm

Preference in Belgian Ales? Recommendations? I like New Belgium's 1554 and Abbey.

Nice nice...

I am a big fan of Chimay. I also like Corsendock and Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.

901 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:55pm

So here's what I've wanted someone to ask the Pres and Nana Pelosi et al since this all came about

President Obama stated very clearly tonight that we will partially pay for this by eliminating waste and fraud in Medicare/Cade systems

IF they know there is that much waste and fraud, why do we have to wait for this (or any other) bill that needs funding to CUT said watse and fraud!
AND ,,, if this bill does NOT pass (meaning it doen;t have to be funded) will that mean they then see no NEED to cut the waste and fraud!?!?!

Government in action
Government inaction

902 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:32:57pm

re: #813 marjoriemoon

The cost to the patient might be free - but the procedure itself has a cost - in time and money (the technician who performs the test, the radiologist interpreting the results, and the equipment upkeep).

If you only look at the cost to the patient, you're missing the true cost of the care.

903 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:08pm

re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote

The IRS.

They don't pay those guys?
/

904 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:12pm

re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote

The IRS.

...they collect our money for free?

905 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:17pm

re: #879 jcm

Main chef and chief bottle washer!


Read this...and try an extract batch.

906 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:21pm

re: #896 Chekote

Joe Wilson apologized.

He acted badly. Wrong place, wrong time.

907 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:27pm

re: #897 Charles

I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

So very very true.

908 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:52pm

re: #901 sattv4u2

So here's what I've wanted someone to ask the Pres and Nana Pelosi et al since this all came about

President Obama stated very clearly tonight that we will partially pay for this by eliminating waste and fraud in Medicare/Cade systems

IF they know there is that much waste and fraud, why do we have to wait for this (or any other) bill that needs funding to CUT said watse and fraud!
AND ,,, if this bill does NOT pass (meaning it doen;t have to be funded) will that mean they then see no NEED to cut the waste and fraud!?!?!

Government in action
Government inaction

I wondered the same damn thing...

909 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:33:57pm

re: #897 Charles

I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers? That's new to me! That would be pretty funny if they were forced to back off tort reform to stay in opposition to health care. That would be a masterful move.

910 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:04pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

I know folks don't want to hear it, but we DO need reform.

The right should bring some ideas to the table we can get behind.

(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.

(2) Disincentives for using the ER for primary care. As, for instance, somebody comes to the ER for poison ivy, give them a voucher for a visit to a clinic. The poison ivy can wait.

(3) Preexisting condition reform. The democrats want this. Agree to it already. Make their day.

(4) Tort reform. Much of the cost of medicine is the cost of keeping the lawyers at bay.

(5) Mistake-reform. Hospitals need to have a way to own up to mistakes or bad practices and fix them without getting pilloried. We have this now with air traffic control.

(6) Admit that some things have to be rationed. There are only so many hearts out there available for transplant. Some way or other, somehow or other, one person gets it and the other doesn't.

(7) Admit that some causes are hopeless. Extreme and heroic efforts on behalf of those who have nil or next to nil prospects should be available only upon payment by the patient or a proxy. If we really have to cut costs, or cap the growth of costs, when a woman just 20 weeks along goes into labor and delivers a (barely) alive baby, the poor kid should be let die. It is doomed. The doctors can try. They can prolong its agony. But they cannot nurse it through to where it can live to see any birthdays. [At any rate, no one has ever succeeded in the attempt. Not even once.]

At the other end, if/when yours truly has exhausted the arsenal of treatment and nothing has worked, should it come to that, another surgery on top of the other, scraping for another week in the ICU before the inevitable end comes, is just not reasonable. There is a time for living, and a time for dying.

911 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:21pm

re: #905 BignJames

Read this...and try an extract batch.

Thanks!

912 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:30pm

re: #903 J.D.

re: #904 Charpete67

They are an independently budgeted entity that pays for itself out of the tax revenues before any of it goes to the govt. They do not come under the budget.

913 cronus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:33pm

re: #880 Killian Bundy

/I haven't heard anyone say they have the votes to get a "public option" through the Senate, just the opposite

Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.

914 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:57pm

re: #900 LudwigVanQuixote

Nice nice...

I am a big fan of Chimay. I also like Corsendock and Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.

Tried Chimay Red, very good I'lll look for the other two.

915 brookly red  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:34:57pm

re: #899 DrNaughty

It's unfortunate that the fact is that many Democrats value their seat in congress more than obama's pie in the sky.

well they have such a good health plan in congress.

916 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:00pm

re: #543 haakondahl

Did you know that there are group plans in which individuals in that plan even for a company with less than 10 people like ours can choose from about 25 different plans, even from different insurance companies? I didn't. I was floored. And guess what, if you are part of a group plan, even if you choose something totally different for yourself (basically an individual plan) there are no pre-existing condition requirements.

Golly, imagine that. No, I'd rather go to some clinic with marginal docs and be at the mercy of our benevolent Congress.

Then again, I'm paying for my own care. Looks like about 50% of us want me to pay for theirs too.

917 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:09pm

re: #869 Coracle

It was all lies according to you. There. I just saved you an hour.

* * * *
I loved the President's opening statement that the economy has been saved from the brink!

One out of every ten Americans is unemployed but very relieved to hear this.

918 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:12pm

re: #897 Charles

I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

They are at a crossroads. Will they support tort reform for the votes or not support it for the money? That is large dilemma for a politician.

919 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:15pm

re: #896 Chekote

Joe Wilson apologized.

That's nice.

/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?

920 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:18pm

re: #909 Coracle

Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers?

It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.

And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.

921 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:34pm

re: #913 cronus

Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.

He must have missed Harry Reid's statement yesterday with Nancy in front of the White House after meeting with obama...

922 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:37pm

re: #876 Mich-again

The GOP supports tort reform. That should be a part of healthcare reform. When the Dems took that right off the table it was obvious they weren't terribly interested in working with Republicans, or true reform.

923 ConservativeAtheist  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:37pm

re: #900 LudwigVanQuixote

...Delirium Tremens. Yes there is an ale called that.

Mmmm. Pink elephants. Nice beer.

924 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:35:54pm
925 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:01pm

re: #909 Coracle

Republicans in the pockets of trial lawyers? That's new to me! That would be pretty funny if they were forced to back off tort reform to stay in opposition to health care. That would be a masterful move.

And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.

926 Charpete67  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:11pm

re: #912 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #904 Charpete67

They are an independently budgeted entity that pays for itself out of the tax revenues before any of it goes to the govt. They do not come under the budget.

you're kidding right?...they don't pay the good people who work at the IRS?

927 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:18pm

re: #828 haakondahl

The guy is an instant right wing hero for a very classless and rude outburst during a presidential speech. He'll be all over Fox and invited so speak at Tea Parties now. This is what gets conservatives excited these days. I find it embarrassing.

928 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:19pm

re: #919 Killian Bundy

That's nice.

/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?

hahahaha

929 J.D.  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:19pm

re: #912 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #904 Charpete67

They are an independently budgeted entity that pays for itself out of the tax revenues before any of it goes to the govt. They do not come under the budget.

So costs are self-contained. But there are costs.

930 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:21pm

re: #917 alegrias

* * * *
I loved the President's opening statement that the economy has been saved from the brink!

One out of every ten Americans is unemployed but very relieved to hear this.

Because he clearly followed that up by saying everything is just dandy for everyone now.
Please.

931 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:33pm

charles i am going to disagree with you on tort reform and the gop the type of lawyer this is directed at are almost all in the democrat hip pocket so it is in the gop interest to support it and support it all the way to passage as well as the docs are supporting this as well and many of them support it

932 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:39pm

re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote

And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.

Total bull. The Rs have supported and implemented this in a number of states.

933 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:57pm

re: #884 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't debate that. That is why I very much liked the proposal to have doctors and health care providers find ways to eliminate waste in gov't programs.

That sounds good to me too. The inefficiencies that go with it are a pain in the neck, it took me 7 months to get part D, (drug coverage) in the mean time, I've spent almost $5000.00 on drugs. Even with a letter from Social Security saying I should have had it from the start, I'm not going to get reimbursed for the funds I've already spent. (And that's with buying my drugs from Canada.)

934 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:36:59pm

re: #914 jcm

Tried Chimay Red, very good I'lll look for the other two.

The white and the blue have their charms.

If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.

935 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:00pm

re: #913 cronus

Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

936 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:13pm

re: #910 lostlakehiker

(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.

One question I've wondered about on this issue...

in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?

937 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:28pm

re: #935 NJDhockeyfan

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

Yes. Makes one wonder why this speech was necessary tonight since it's in the bag...

938 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:45pm

re: #920 Charles

It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.

And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.

I heartily agree with that. But it's been such a torch for so long. I was kind of hoping it was also a lever toward actual bipartisanism. If they're going to back away just to be contrarian, then there's not much hope of that.

939 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:37:47pm

re: #718 right_wing2

Cost savings for screenings depends on how often the condition exists.

If the cost of 1,000 cancer screenings is $100 each (pulling numbers out of my backside here!) catches 200 cancers that cost $10,000 each, then we're ahead of the game. If it catches just 5 cases of cancer at that same $10,000,
then there's no cost savings.

Please note, I'm not saying that screening shouldn't be done- ANY life saved is valuable. I'm simply looking at cost savingshere.

Sorry I missed your comment. This board really moves!

I'm not sure people understand the totality of what cancer costs. It's astronomical. In your example, if the screening costs $100 or even $200, cancer treatments is in the 10s of 1000s. Sometimes 100s of thousands. Certainly breast and colon cancer, with multiple radiation and chemo treatments. I can't see the cost of screening getting anywhere near the cost of treating these diseases.

I have to pay for mammographies because I need extra testing. It runs me about $300-400 a year.

Not only that, organizations like Susan G. Komen (I know, I did fundraising for them for 6 years) give money towards the screenings. Just our one organization, and they're worldwide with others like them, raised approx $25,000 yearly.

940 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:03pm

re: #923 ConservativeAtheist

Mmmm. Pink elephants. Nice beer.

Yeah kicks butt.

Right now though in my fridge I have some Golden Monkey. Good stuff. Totally different - hints of allspice and ginger. Very refreshing.

941 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:09pm

re: #919 Killian Bundy

That's nice.

/think the media will drop it and go back to covering Obama's speech?

He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.

McCain calls on Wilson to apologize.

942 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:16pm

re: #936 mikey_dallas

One question I've wondered about on this issue...

in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?

You're asking if personal responsibly is important ?

943 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:19pm

re: #920 Charles

It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.

And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.

Charles, OT but Rep. Jean Schmidt issues a press release today:

Statement of Congresswoman Jean Schmidt on the issue of President Obama's Citizenship

For Immediate Release
September 9, 2009

Washington, D.C. - “The President is indeed a Citizen of this country and constitutionally qualified to be President of the United States. I may not agree with his politics but there is no doubt he is the President and has my full respect. The video clip being circulated by some is part of a longer conversation with a woman who was very upset about a number of things. I, in no way, agree with her belief that President Obama is not a citizen of the United States. I did agree with her view that the constitution should be strictly interpreted. I was trying to be kind to a woman who was trying desperately and passionately to express her views. She has the right to her beliefs, no matter how much I disagree with them.”

944 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:21pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

* * * *
Yes, ZERO-based budgeting of federal programs was Pres. Jimmy Carter's innovation.

Hahaha. That & the misery index in America, which really took off during his 4 years.

945 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:23pm

re: #935 NJDhockeyfan

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

That's what I recall as well. I suspect the White House mediated some sort of deal that gives them confidence to go ahead.

946 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:27pm

re: #897 Charles

I predict that if any real tort reform measures are ever brought up (and they won't be) the GOP will back away from that support faster than a roadrunner falling off a cliff.

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

Very powerful lobbyists. I am reminded way back when Hillarycare had everyone in the industry freaked out. Our CEO in a speech said to us "Let me worry about Hillary - you folks just sell more insurance."

947 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:33pm
948 jcm  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:40pm

re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote

The white and the blue have their charms.

If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.

My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.

949 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:52pm

re: #920 Charles

It's a non-partisan kind of corruption.

And in any case there are good reasons to think that tort reform won't solve anything.

I'd like to read the articles you mentioned earlier. I do know OB/GYNs are hard hit by insurance costs, and this hurts women.

950 cronus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:55pm

re: #935 NJDhockeyfan

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

She may believe she has them in the House (though what Drudge is reporting may contradict that) but they aren't even close to having the votes in the Senate.

951 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:56pm

re: #932 JohnH

Total bull. The Rs have supported and implemented this in a number of states.

Then I hope to be wrong, because tort reform is a good idea, and honestly there is a lot of vested money against it.

952 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:38:59pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm not talking about your 3 ton paperweight taking up room on the lawn.

953 Bagua  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:45pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, that kicked ass...

I may well take some heat for this, but that kicked ass.

Bottom line on anyone wanting to attack me as a lefty,

I am taking a very very old fashioned view that you have a duty to help those in need and that telling a kid he has to suffer for the sake of profits is called evil.

Our system is rife with flaws. The rhetoric against reform always sweeps those under the rug. I have doctor relatives who tell me dozens of insurance horror stories.

Exactly what is wrong with holding those bastards accountable? They loose profits? You are fighting for their right to be parasites?

What is wrong with opening up the market to make it more competitive? This is an up and up free market solution - and it does not cost tax dollars to do.

What is wrong with offering affordable minimal coverage as an independent agency to those who still need it?

Best of all, what is wrong with having actual medical professionals, rather than lawyers, corporations and politicians form a committee to cut out waste. The horror stories that my brother tells me from the VA are astonishing. Millions wasted that could be used to help people.

The only people who stand to loose from this are certain fat cat insurance companies and well - fuck them. They are parasites.

Was that a typo Ludwig, or do you not realise that the Va is already a form of government health care?

954 JohnH  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:52pm

re: #951 LudwigVanQuixote

Then I hope to be wrong, because tort reform is a good idea, and honestly there is a lot of vested money against it.

What passed here in Ohio was broader than just med-mal reform.

955 FrogMarch  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:39:54pm

re: #913 cronus

Dick Durbin was strongly hinting a month ago that the Dems didn't have the votes for a "public option". But what would he know, he's only the Senate Majority Whip.

The "public option" is political suicide for the Democrats. They know it. so they are going to back away slowly, and do what they can to change the rhetoric surrounding the idea. The D's want to get as close as possible to that objective without calling it a "Public option".

Obama ditched the entire "public option" from his bag o-rhetoric.

956 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:04pm

re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote

And it is ultimately, I think one of the reasons for all of the talking about everything else... The GOP brought it up as a ruse, they never thought that they might have to act on.

Incorrect

Tort reform is part of HR 3400
Tort reform has been passed and implemented (by a Repulcan gov and senate) in Texas and one other state that escapes me at the moment

957 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:05pm

re: #948 jcm

My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.

I strongly recommend it.

958 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:07pm

recently i read that 78% of political contrabutions from lawyers went to democrats and it would be a guess that if you took corp. and finance law out of it the % would be even higher.

959 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:10pm

re: #947 taxfreekiller

avoid the truth at all cost

You show us how, my friend.

960 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:15pm

re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I would love to see him get up and name names and hold these people accountable. It would force them to either straighten up or retrench themselves into further stupidity.

There is nothing wrong with calling a liar a liar.

Contrary to popular belief, he has too much class.

961 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:37pm

re: #935 NJDhockeyfan

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

/she's the Speaker of the House, not the Senate

962 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:48pm

re: #885 lawhawk

Democrat headlines tomorrow in their push mails - GOP obstructionists prevent health care proposals from moving forward.

* * *
GOP wasn't even allowed in the rooms where Kennedy's health care proposal planners--including AMA & AARP & PHARMA representatives-- were meeting for the last year.

963 Bob Dillon  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:49pm

re: #910 lostlakehiker

(1) Incentives for healthy lifestyle. Allow insurance companies to give discounts or rewards for losing weight or maintaining a healthy weight, for not smoking, and so forth.

All ready in place by some ins. cos.

964 Lucius Septimius  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:53pm

re: #936 mikey_dallas

One question I've wondered about on this issue...

in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?

Ahh --- now we get to a serious problem.

Private businesses can, potentially make such distinctions -- provide coverage for one sub-group but not another.

In the case of the government it would be more difficult. Look at it this way: how many smokers are there? How many overweight folks? Tell them, as an elected official, that you voted to deny them coverage and then see how things go at the poll next time around.

In all the discussions of "costs" and "savings" the assumption is that the decision-making process will be free from politics. It won't, and consequently the "savings" that will come from "reform" will most likely go 'poof.'

965 Erik The Red  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:57pm

Watching Federer kick Soderling's ass. 6-0, 6-3 into third set.

966 brookly red  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:40:59pm

re: #935 Negativing

Didn't Nancy Polis say they had the votes yesterday?

Well sometimes Nancy exaggerates...

967 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:03pm

re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote

The white and the blue have their charms.

If you can get the stuff from Belgium, it has the yeasts in the bottom of the bottle. Very very healthy actually.

Many micro/craft beers have yeast residue in them...it's a result of "bottle conditioning"...letting the beer carbonate naturally in the bottle.

968 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:04pm

re: #941 avanti

He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.

McCain calls on Wilson to apologize.


I doubt it. Wilson will be look upon as a moron but it wont change their minds on their position on health care.

969 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:23pm

re: #953 Bagua

Was that a typo Ludwig, or do you not realise that the Va is already a form of government health care?

No, not at all. The stories in question are about the sorts of things that make doctors pull their hair out. Obama wants a commission of doctors to look into reforming the waste in the system. This is a good thing.

970 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:24pm
971 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:41:57pm

re: #934 LudwigVanQuixote

since beer isn't a political issue and on chemay ale we agree.

chemay ale or a aged oak barrel barley wine

972 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:05pm

re: #835 marjoriemoon

Ain't nuthin free of course, but the consumer gets the savings which is a good thing.

Mr. Moon was just explaining your healthcare to me. You don't have investors. Makes sense.

Why would people object to a government plan run the same way? Especially if it already exists?

My objection is to the "government run" part.

973 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:06pm

Umm...isn't former Democratic Presidential candidate and philanderer John Edwards the poster boy for judgment-rich medical malpractice suit trial lawyers? Not that his own judgment is worth jack squat...

That guy will screw, and screw over, anyone or anything that moves, for love or money.

974 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:12pm

re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote

Not meant to be nasty at all. Millions of Americans have nothing.

And if the President has his way, soon we will all become a little more like them.

975 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:24pm
re: #942 DrNaughty
re: #936 mikey_dallas

One question I've wondered about on this issue...

in the "and so forth" part of that, what about people who contract AIDS because of completely voluntary indiscriminate unsafe sex practices - are we going to refuse them treatment like some propose to do for smokers' lung cancer and overweight folks diabetes? Or is that too politically incorrect?


You're asking if personal responsibly is important ?

I'm asking those who believe we should limit health treatments for ailments that come from personal choices, like smoking and overeating (I am NOT one of those) - are you going to only pick on personal responsibility issues that are easy targets, like smoking and obesity, or if they're really serious and will apply it also to the gay community on AIDS.

976 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:30pm

re: #902 lawhawk

See my #939.

977 n in wi  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:48pm

re: #910 lostlakehiker

1 through 6 are being done, by the insurance companies, the true regulators of the free market. We don't have a system of health insurance as structured now. We have more of a pre-paid medical care system.
as for # 7, it is nobody else's business if one chooses to pour all their resources into a new born or elderly relative,least of all the governments. As for the insurer,their obligation is only contractual.

978 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #973 Salamantis

Umm...isn't former Democratic Presidential candidate and philanderer John Edwards the poster boy for judgment-rich medical malpractice suit trial lawyers? Not that his own judgment is worth jack squat...

That guy will screw, and screw over, anyone or anything that moves, for love or money.

Well he definitley did that to Rial Hunter...

979 Killian Bundy  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:03pm

re: #941 avanti

He's been asked, I have not seen it yet. This will help Obama, most voters respect the office.

McCain calls on Wilson to apologize.

/help him by stomping all over his message, who's dominating the news cycle at the moment?

980 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:05pm

re: #968 NJDhockeyfan

I doubt it. Wilson will be look upon as a moron but it wont change their minds on their position on health care.

The left will use this, from the link:


"Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) said he has never witnessed such a scene in 35 years of watching presidential addresses.

"I've never seen anything like it," Leahy said. "I talked to a number of my Republican friends on the way out who were mortified and angry that someone would do that.

"I've been in situations with presidents with whom I absolutely disagreed with," said Leahy, who had a memorable exchange in 2004 on the Senate floor with Vice President Dick Cheney. After criticizing the vice president about his ties to Halliburton, Cheney used an obsenity with Leahy.

Still, Leahy said he hadn't seen anything like a lawmaker calling the president a liar during an address to Congress.

"But nobody — nobody — ever has done anything like that," he said. ".He is the head of government for our country."

981 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:17pm

re: #967 BignJames

Many micro/craft beers have yeast residue in them...it's a result of "bottle conditioning"...letting the beer carbonate naturally in the bottle.

Yep and I like it!

982 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:21pm

Wilson apologizes -- ASAP

Joe Wilson (R-SC) has issued an apology for heckling President Obama, about an hour after the speech -- a clear sign the GOP realizes just how damaging his performance was.

His statement:

“This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”


Douchebag.

983 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:35pm

re: #971 yochanan

since beer isn't a political issue and on chemay ale we agree.

chemay ale or a aged oak barrel barley wine

ummm I'll take both?

984 Mich-again  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:36pm

re: #897 Charles

Their "support" for tort reform is nothing but a political tool. They're deeply in the pockets of the people who profit most from the current corrupt system, like all politicians are -- the insurance companies and the trial lawyers.

The GOP is deep in the pockets of the Trial Lawyers? Then the Dems are in a lot deeper. Here is one trial lawyers association with 56,000 members and the stats show in 2008 they split their millions 95% to Dems and 5% to Republicans. I wouldn't paint the two sides with the same brush when it comes to being subservient to trial lawyers. American Association for Justice:

Formerly the Association of Trial Lawyers of America (ATLA), this group of plaintiffs' attorneys and others in the legal profession now goes by the name of the American Association for Justice (AAJ) and boasts 56,000 members worldwide. A lobbying heavyweight, the association has been battling any attempt at tort reform, including recent proposals to cap awards in medical malpractice lawsuits. AAJ also lobbies Congress on any legislation that may inhibit the ability of consumers to bring lawsuits, particularly against health care providers, asbestos companies or insurance companies processing claims related to terrorism. The association favors Democrats, who oppose most attempts to initiate tort reform.
985 im_gumby_damnit  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:45pm

re: #925 LudwigVanQuixote

In Georgia, once the Republicans took over the legislature and the governor's office in 2002, they almost immediately implemented medical malpractice tort reform. Specifically, they put caps on the amount that could be recovered for "noneconomic" damages in such cases. They also made it more difficult to sue emergency room medical personnel. The trial lawyers in the state are still howling over that one. Trust me, none of them are writing checks to the GOP.

It remains to be seen, however, whether the "reforms" will have any significant impact on health care or insurance costs.

986 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:43:47pm

re: #943 Gus 802

Charles, OT but Rep. Jean Schmidt issues a press release today:

Statement of Congresswoman Jean Schmidt on the issue of President Obama's Citizenship

Uh oh. Politician caught on tape. Must spin. Spin spin spin.

What a joke.

987 Bagua  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:02pm

re: #969 LudwigVanQuixote

No, not at all. The stories in question are about the sorts of things that make doctors pull their hair out. Obama wants a commission of doctors to look into reforming the waste in the system. This is a good thing.

Nonsense, you were ranting on about the evils of a profits based health care industry compared with the paradise of government run health care, you then used an example of fraud and waste in a government run health care system. That is irrational.

988 BignJames  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:03pm

re: #948 jcm

My beer mart my have it! When I was little we home brewed Root Beer, with the yeast still there.


You were born to brew.

989 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:10pm

re: #875 marjoriemoon

Wow, where do you live? In some far away place you drive your car around the yard?

Seriously, where can you register a vehicle without insurance?


I have an old Jeep C-J under wraps waiting on a new diesel engine. It's not registered and won't be until it's road worthy. As long as it doesn't leave my property, I'm not required to register it.

990 sagehen  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:11pm

re: #795 mikey_dallas

This leads to the whole issue of Quality Adjusted Remaining Years (QARY), and if you need $20K in medical treatment and that will buy you 3 more years of quality life, and a year of quality life is determined by one of these panels to be worth $5K, then you only get $15K of benefit from $20 K of medical treatment. Treatment DENIED. You don't get 3 more years of "quality life", you get nothing but what amounts to a death sentence by denial of treatment that would extend quality life for you.

The QDRY analysis in Ezekiel Emmanuel's article was about how to allocate transplant organs, or limited drugs in a fast-moving epidemic, when it's physically impossible to treat everyone. It wasn't about costs.

991 researchok  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:15pm

There is no bill in either the House or Senate- and what the bill will look like is anyone's guess, as there are at least 5 different versions out there.

When all is said and done, Obama speech was all smoke and mirrors.

992 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:44:23pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Can you name just one Federal government program with a cost of $0? The very thought that one involved with health care could achieve this distinction is simply beyond the realm of believability.

I'm sorry about my above comment! LOL I totally clicked the wrong post. I beg your forgiveness!

993 Gus  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:04pm

re: #986 Charles

Uh oh. Politician caught on tape. Must spin. Spin spin spin.

What a joke.

Roger. Hey, remember that video "Birthers on the Hill?" Guess who was in that? Charles Boustany. He gave the rebuttal tonight. H said something about "looking into it" more or less.

994 Adrenalyn  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:06pm

re: #872 Bobibutu

Not really. This is an emotionally charged issue and many do not have trust in Obama or believe what he says.

and how many times has the left interrupted a Republican's speech, up to and including Bush
the lack of civility won't get any better until the sides see how foolish it makes them BOTH look

995 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:06pm

re: #896 Chekote

Joe Wilson apologized.

Hunh! Glad to hear it.

996 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:26pm

re: #984 Mich-again

OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.

997 Wendya  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:27pm

re: #935 NJDhockeyfan

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say they had the votes yesterday?

Consider the source.

998 alegrias  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:45:45pm

re: #937 DrNaughty

Yes. Makes one wonder why this speech was necessary tonight since it's in the bag...

* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,

maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.

999 mikey_dallas  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:08pm

re: #990 sagehen

The QDRY analysis in Ezekiel Emmanuel's article was about how to allocate transplant organs, or limited drugs in a fast-moving epidemic, when it's physically impossible to treat everyone. It wasn't about costs.

I wasn't referring to Emmanuel's article. QARY is what the British health services and others in Europe use to deny expensive treatment to primarily elderly.

1000 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:12pm

re: #993 Gus 802

Roger. Hey, remember that video "Birthers on the Hill?" Guess who was in that? Charles Boustany. He gave the rebuttal tonight. H said something about "looking into it" more or less.

Oh yeah. Imagine my surprise.

1001 DrNaughty  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:22pm

re: #998 alegrias

* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,

maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.

That or he missed his face time on TV after being on vacation for a week.

1002 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:44pm

re: #998 alegrias

* * *
Well, Pres. Obama did say the time for talk was OVER.
So if he knew Pelosi & Reid have beaten recalcitrant Democrats into submission,

maybe he just wanted to waste an hour of everyone's time.

You've got a nice little echo chamber set up there.

1003 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:46:55pm

re: #989 Wendya

I have an old Jeep C-J under wraps waiting on a new diesel engine. It's not registered and won't be until it's road worthy. As long as it doesn't leave my property, I'm not required to register it.

I thought it was clear enough. I was talking about autos you drive.

And in FL, you have to register "abandoned" vechicles. Those that don't run. In CA is the same, but cheaper. I also live in a high accident-prone state.

1004 WinterCat  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:00pm

I don't want the government to manage my health care. Period. I don't trust them to do anything but screw it up, ie., make it more complex, more expensive, and more inefficient than the private health insurance I now have.

It may be that Obama has the best of intentions here. But you know what they say about the road to hell...

1005 yochanan  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:04pm

the biggest political lie i ever heard was the zero saying the gov't can do it cheaper' hell even liberals i know laughed when they heard it.

1006 MacDuff  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:20pm

re: #892 Coracle

Then you don't have to believe it. I will believe it if and when I see it and it makes sense.

And I'll believe that pigs can fly when I see them perched on telephone wires. Then porcine aviation will make sense.

The most dependable predictor of the future is careful analysis of the past and the government's track record lends tremendous credence to that axiom. Believe flowery platitudes if you will, I'll remain firmly planted in reality.

1007 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:32pm
1008 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:47:51pm

re: #1004 WinterCat

I don't want the government to manage my health care. Period. I don't trust them to do anything but screw it up, ie., make it more complex, more expensive, and more inefficient than the private health insurance I now have.

It may be that Obama has the best of intentions here. But you know what they say about the road to hell...

So don't opt in. The Pres. himself expects only 5% of Americans would. Why not be like the other 19 out of 20?

1009 haakondahl  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:00pm

re: #907 LudwigVanQuixote

So very very true.

You missed a spot.

1010 avanti  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:16pm

re: #979 Killian Bundy

/help him by stomping all over his message, who's dominating the news cycle at the moment?

Nope, generate some backlash against the insanity going on about health care. Many conservatives would be embarrassed by the disrespect of the POTUS at a join session of Congress, even if they disagree with him.
Played right, this could be the "At long last have you no shame moment" for the Dems.

1011 Bagua  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:32pm

re: #1005 yochanan

the biggest political lie i ever heard was the zero saying the gov't can do it cheaper' hell even liberals i know laughed when they heard it.

I agree, except that you should not refer to a President of the United States in such a manner, respect the dignity of the office even if you disagree with his policies.

1012 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:48pm

re: #987 Bagua

Nonsense, you were ranting on about the evils of a profits based health care industry compared with the paradise of government run health care, you then used an example of fraud and waste in a government run health care system. That is irrational.

Bagua, there is more to the issue than just picking a roster of talking points from one side or the other. It is not an either or proposition. Nowhere did I say that all govt programs were run well. However, any chance to run them well requires having people who actually know what they are talking about ie. doctors instead of political hacks making the calls on how to do it.

This is exactly what Obama proposed and it is a good idea.

So, since you have taken the caricature of the uber right, how come you don't like the idea of cutting wasteful spending? Is it because Obama suggested it, that doing things sensibly and efficiently as dictated by the experts what now makes it something you must snipe at?

Sorry again, no bagel :)

1013 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:49pm

re: #1006 MacDuff

And I'll believe that pigs can fly when I see them perched on telephone wires. Then porcine aviation will make sense.

The most dependable predictor of the future is careful analysis of the past and the government's track record lends tremendous credence to that axiom. Believe flowery platitudes if you will, I'll remain firmly planted in reality.

I will believe the numbers if they make sense. You can bloviate all you want.

1014 borgcube  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:48:56pm

re: #927 Killgore Trout

I hear you. With that said, the prevailing thought was that the yelling and shouting at the townhalls over the summer were going to backfire against the Republicans. Just the opposite happened.

Ugly? Yeah. But so is the whole enchilada politically speaking nowadays. Maybe now those who try to hide the illegal immigrant issues key to so many conservatives (and union members too for that matter) will not be able to so easily hide them anymore. The SAVE program which is an application process for HUD housing and more that checks the eligibility of people (makes sure they're legal) was shot down by Democrats as part of healthcare reform. Why? Well, we know why. And we know the President was lying and that in fact illegal aliens would be one of the biggest recipients of a government scheme. It doesn't pass the giggle test to say otherwise.

Calling out the President as the lying liar he is about that part of his speech may not be pretty, but it may just get the issue front and center which thus far at least at a Congressional level has been completely absent. Nice isn't working. By the book has failed. Politeness took a backseat long ago. Not saying it's right, but that's how it is.

1015 Danny  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:01pm

re: #996 Charles

OK, if you want to believe the GOP doesn't profit from trial lawyers, that's your prerogative.

They do. Just not as much as the DNC.

1016 jaunte  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:18pm

re: #1010 avanti

There actually are some details to be ironed out.

1017 Coracle  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 7:49:30pm

re: #1007 taxfreekiller

your "uh" guy

"uh'd" the kook democrat base tonight

very eloquent uh?

Do you work hard at not making sense? You're very good at it.

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