Birching the 912 Rally in DC

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Showing up in force today at the Washington DC tea party protest — the John Birch Society: Birching the 912 Rally in DC.

Birching the 912 Rally in DC

Description:
Activist members and supporters of The John Birch Society have been gearing up to be in DC for the Tea Party festivities on September 12th. We will have squads of Birchers working the crowds handing out Birch educational material - in particular our recently released DVD, “The Real Newt Gingrich”, our END THE FED slim jim and our New American article reprint, “How Monetary Mayhem Began.” If you are close enough to participate, great! If you can’t get there, you can still participate in spirit by kicking in to help purchase the DVD’s others will be handing out in your stead. Get more details…

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413 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:25:13am

Buckley is rolling in his grave.

2 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:28:27am

I'll repost this from the last thread...
Hijacking the Tea Party Express

Jim Capo %P% John Birch Society

If you are coming into the freedom movement through the Tea Party wave steer clear of those who promise you less government but at the same time call for maintaining and expanding wars abroad. This is the death trap the neocons have set for you. If you want to support our troops, stand up with members of The John Birch Society and call for them to be brought home, not sent further into Afghanistan and beyond. Ending the FED and our military footprint abroad are the two most important steps we can take to assure more freedom at home. A Tea Party movement that stays focused on these critical and related issues is the greatest threat to those we are fighting. This is the freedom express that we can't let be derailed.

As Randolph Bourne trenchantly observed, "War is the health of the State." If you want less government, you have to want less war. If someone convinces you otherwise, your fervor for freedom has been hijacked and used against you.

3 lazardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:28:38am

If this isn't what the American right wing has become then I don't know what is.

4 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:29:07am

I'm putting $1 on post 113...

5 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:29:10am

all these extremist fools who claim to be opposing Barack Obama are giving the POTUS's supporters their best material with which to defend him. these extreme Obama-bashers are acting in a way that practically guaranteesd he will be re-elected.

6 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:31:24am

I just saw this flag.

Image: 800px-An_Appeal_to_Heaven_Flag.svg.png

7 laZardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:32:12am

Huh. Missed the downding button before it got deleted.

8 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:32:50am

re: #6 MandyManners

Is that the ever noble 'water the tree of liberty' meme? Give me a break.

9 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:32:54am

re: #5 _RememberTonyC

all these extremist fools who claim to be opposing Barack Obama are giving the POTUS's supporters their best material with which to defend him. these extreme Obama-bashers are acting in a way that practically guaranteesd he will be re-elected.

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

10 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:34:04am

re: #8 BigPapa

Is that the ever noble 'water the tree of liberty' meme? Give me a break.

Actually, it was a flag in the Revolutionary War.

[Link: www.foundingfathers.info...]

12 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:34:45am

Where did all these people come from?

13 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:34:50am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

Of course not. However, at what point do the Birchers/extremists taint the whole? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? 100,000?

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:35:14am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

They're not all extremists, obviously. But they're blithely unconcerned about the extremists who are all over the place.

15 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:35:40am

I'm seeing a lot of Gadsden flags.

16 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:36:27am

re: #10 MandyManners

Yes, but what does the tree mean and why is it being used now? I would assume it plays on the 'water the tree of liberty' meme.

17 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:36:45am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

DC Police estimates vary from some LGF commenter estimates.

18 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:36:46am

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

19 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:37:47am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

I agree with that ... and I did not mean to portray all of the people with that label. However, the media will find the crazies and their presence taints all the good people who are also attending.

20 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:37:47am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

It's a subtle ad for Starbucks.

21 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:38:31am

re: #18 Charles

I don't know, I didn't hear anything about it. My Zionist WorldCom Email didn't come through last night.

I'm afraid to look but is Wilson going to be all over this?

22 idioma  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:38:49am

“How Monetary Mayhem Began.”

The Nirth rule of Monetary Mayhem is: You do not ask questions.

23 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:38:52am

The birchers think that their anti-tax hat will hide the pointy hood.
It doesn't.

24 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:39:12am

The "blogger alliance" list on the 912dc.org website is packed full of militias, Nirthers, and extremists of all kinds. I don't have the stomach for it, but I'll bet it wouldn't be hard to find a few white supremacists in there too.

25 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:40:35am

re: #16 BigPapa

Yes, but what does the tree mean and why is it being used now? I would assume it plays on the 'water the tree of liberty' meme.

From my link in No. 10: Still another was a white flag with a green pine tree and the inscription, "An Appeal to Heaven." This particular flag became familiar on the seas as the ensign of the cruisers commissioned by General Washington, and was noted by many English newspapers of the time.

26 laZardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:41:12am

re: #20 debutaunt

That explains why looking at the live-cams has suddenly given me the urge to go out and get a "frappuccino."

27 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:41:28am

re: #17 debutaunt

DC Police estimates vary from some LGF commenter estimates.

If it's over a million, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. I guessed 100K tops. That is a tremendous crowd, over a million is Vietnam war protest numbers, wow. Have a link ?

28 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:41:40am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

To promote ron paul and his ideology?

29 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:24am

GOP Sees Protest As an Opportunity

'Taxpayer March' in D.C. Attracts Party Leaders, but Some Are Wary

"...Several key Republican lawmakers, including House GOP Chairman Mike Pence of Indiana, have helped to drum up support for the march and are slated to deliver speeches to the crowd.

But top Republican strategists and many party observers also worry about the impact that the most extreme protesters might have on the party's image, including those who carry swastika signs or obsess over the veracity of Obama's Hawaiian birth.

Mark McKinnon, a former adviser to Sen. John McCain (Ariz.) and other Republicans, said there is an "opportunity for Republicans" to tap into legitimate fears about an overreaching federal government. But he said that "right-wing nutballs are aligning themselves with these movements" and are dominating media coverage.

"It's bad for Republicans because in the absence of any real leadership, the freaks fill the void and define the party," McKinnon said. .."

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

30 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:38am

re: #27 avanti

If it's over a million, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. I guessed 100K tops. That is a tremendous crowd, over a million is Vietnam war protest numbers, wow. Have a link ?

No I don't. I was quoting Anthony.

31 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:44am

Live stream here...
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

32 rightymouse  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:50am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.


That's an enormous number of people! That's more that turned out for O's inauguration I believe.
Nobody is going to be able to control/manage the mix.

33 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:54am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

From the 9-12 website:

The 9-12 project is designed to bring us all back to the place we were on September 12, 2001. The day after America was attacked, we were not obsessed with Red States, Blue States or political parties. We were united as Americans, standing together to protect the values and principles of the greatest nation ever created.

#1 - on 9-13, life was already beginning to be headed back to "normal". We cannot stay frozen at one point in time - impossible, for one thing, and for another, not at all productive, imo.

#2 - This gathering will do NOTHING to accomplish that.

34 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:42:55am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Sure, it's a "We don't like the guy that won protest"

35 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:43:12am

Tea Party Express Arrives for 'March on Washington' to Protest Government Spending
FreedomWorks Foundation, a conservative organization led by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, has organized several groups from across the country for the Saturday event, dubbed a "March on Washington."

I didn't hear about this until this AM.

36 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:44:00am

re: #34 avanti

Sure, it's a "We don't like the guy that won protest"

Basically, that's it.
And, I don't particularly like the guy who won. I also didn't particularly like the guy who did not win.

We have what we have, and should try to work with it.

37 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:44:19am

re: #13 BigPapa

Of course not. However, at what point do the Birchers/extremists taint the whole? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? 100,000?

Here's something I wonder about. In light of the fact that the media will be looking to highlight the loons, imagine this scenario:

- A regular Joe-six-pack kind of guy drives in from out-of-town goes to the tea party and isn't an extremist and goes through the customary marching, has a non-offensive "Too much spending" kind of sign.

- Joe-six-pack's neighbor of 10 years is watching the evening news and sees loony behavior, all the time knowing that his next door neighbor was there.

- Joe-six-pack returns and sees his next door neighbor the following day. Next door neighbor recounts what he saw on the news and Joe-six-pack says that yeah, there were some few nuts, but that was not the norm. He says that by and large the protesters were just ordinary Americans that had never been political before and, but for some exceptions that defined the rule, people were well-behaved, etc.

That's the scenario. Here's the question: Who does the next-door-neighbor believe? Joe-six-pack or the news report?

38 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:44:58am

Conservative 'Funding Father' Richard Viguerie Trains Tea Party Leaders

Viguerie also discussed the need for conservatives to stop playing the
American version of the 'Brezhnev Doctrine.' Viguerie said, "For too long
conservatives have conceded the Democratic Party to the liberals, and accepted that we would battle the left for control of the Republican Party. Tea Party activists are not wedded to working within the GOP, and they've demonstrated the effectiveness of not being beholden to one party or another."

Richard Viguerie

In January 15, 2008 he said: "Ron Paul is truly a principled conservative".

39 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:44:59am

re: #29 MJ

GOP Sees Protest As an Opportunity

'Taxpayer March' in D.C. Attracts Party Leaders, but Some Are Wary
But top Republican strategists and many party observers also worry about the impact that the most extreme protesters might have on the party's image, including those who carry swastika signs or obsess over the veracity of Obama's Hawaiian birth.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Hey, there is hope!

40 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:45:15am

re: #9 Anthony (Los Angeles)

DC Police estimates are at 1.2 million, 450,000 metered at one intersection. Somehow, I doubt they're all Birchers, extremists, or fools.

Do you have a link for that estimate?

I thought it was DC Police and NPS policy not to release crowd estimates, but I'd like to see one from a source like this if it's available.

41 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:45:48am

re: #34 avanti

Sure, it's a "We don't like the guy that won protest"

I think that is an oversimplification. I'm willing to bet that a portion of the crowd voted for BHO but many are concerned that his moderation on the campaign trail has been replaced by a more left of center governing plan that many would NOT have voted for.

42 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:45:59am

re: #32 rightymouse

That's an enormous number of people! That's more that turned out for O's inauguration I believe.
Nobody is going to be able to control/manage the mix.

1.8 million for Obama, and the city was slammed, My under 100K estimate was based on the lose packing of the crowd on the cams on PV Ave. I need the link to the over a million estimate posted to believe it.

43 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:46:09am

re: #33 reine.de.tout

The 9-12 project is designed to bring us all back to the place we were on September 12, 2001. The day after America was attacked, we were not obsessed with Red States, Blue States or political parties. We were united as Americans, standing together to protect the values and principles of the greatest nation ever created.

In other words, there's no goal at all. It's an unfocused expression of general rage.

44 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:47:39am

re: #43 Charles

In other word, there's no goal at all. It's an unfocused expression of rage.

Yep.

45 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:47:42am

re: #36 reine.de.tout

Basically, that's it.
And, I don't particularly like the guy who won. I also didn't particularly like the guy who did not win.

We have what we have, and should try to work with it.

I think a lot of people who don't usually protest anything are stunned by all the unprecedented spending and don't know what else to do. They are being manipulated by the fringe.

46 scaramouche  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:47:55am

Tarring protesters who have legitimate concerns about the way Obama is supersizing the government with the John Birch brush is most unfair. Not everyone who disagrees with Obama's policies is a "nirther" or a Bircher or an "extemist." Take another look at the crowd that has gathered in Washington. Most of them are ordinary people who don't like what they're seeing, and who have every right to voice their displeasure.

47 irongrampa  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:48:14am

re: #40 SixDegrees

A bit earlier, on another website, caught a twitter feed that purported to say DC police did estimate that crowd size. Can't vouch for the veracity, obviously, so this is simply a fwiw.

48 laZardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #37 Pianobuff

Individually-speaking, the neighbor would probably believe Joe-six-pack although he might be a little suspicious afterward. Collectively they'd believe the news reports.

I think.

49 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:48:33am

re: #37 Pianobuff

That's the scenario. Here's the question: Who does the next-door-neighbor believe? Joe-six-pack or the news report?

What about all the other neighbors who don't talk to Joe Six Pack and now think he's a whacked out loon and now won't talk to him because of their perception?

50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:48:52am

re: #39 BigPapa

Hey, there is hope!

I'm trying to remember all the whacky stuff we saw from the Left during the last administration. I don't remember anyone denouncing Code Pink or Cindy Sheehan (in public, or by the way of the MSM).

I didn't hear any outcry over Rev Wright or Bill Ayers during the election.

So, my question, if the GOP is concerned about how the fringe will affect them, do we have any evidence the Dem's feel the same way about the Left fringe?

51 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:49:03am

re: #42 avanti

1.8 million for Obama, and the city was slammed, My under 100K estimate was based on the lose packing of the crowd on the cams on PV Ave. I need the link to the over a million estimate posted to believe it.

A million people, crowd size may vary depending on political perspective.

52 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:49:03am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

It's the "everything that comes out of Obama's mouth is a lie" protest. He's a marxist/commie/fascist/homoagendapushing/babykilling/USAhating/terrorist protest. Oh, and Obama has a chip on his black shoulder protest.

HTH

53 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:49:43am

re: #45 debutaunt

I think a lot of people who don't usually protest anything are stunned by all the unprecedented spending and don't know what else to do. They are being manipulated by the fringe.

I attended the first "tea party" event that was held where I live, for the reasons you stated.

But very quickly after that (and because of Killgore's incessant warnings), I started checking and discovered the local movement was headed by members of "The Constitution Party", a really whacked out group, imo.

54 rightymouse  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:50:06am

re: #42 avanti

1.8 million for Obama, and the city was slammed, My under 100K estimate was based on the lose packing of the crowd on the cams on PV Ave. I need the link to the over a million estimate posted to believe it.

Where are you getting your 1.8 million from? I've seen about a million.

55 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:50:16am

re: #45 debutaunt

I think a lot of people who don't usually protest anything are stunned by all the unprecedented spending and don't know what else to do. They are being manipulated by the fringe.

I think they are marchuing because they are genuinely concerned with the level of deficit spending and government takeover of private enterprise, and the fringe extremists are running to the front of the line so they can claim it as their own.

56 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #46 scaramouche

Who is doing the tarring, perpetrating it, creating the opportunity for it?

57 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:50:57am

re: #47 irongrampa

A bit earlier, on another website, caught a twitter feed that purported to say DC police did estimate that crowd size. Can't vouch for the veracity, obviously, so this is simply a fwiw.

I'll reject that estimate, then, if there's no corroboration.

58 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:51:24am

re: #55 Salamantis

I think they are marchuing because they are genuinely concerned with the level of deficit spending and government takeover of private enterprise, and the fringe extremists are running to the front of the line so they can claim it as their own.

Sala - you're probably correct about most of the people.
But I suspect the fringe extremists aren't running to the front, but have been there all along, and are using the rest of the folks for their own ends.

59 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:51:44am

re: #53 reine.de.tout

I attended the first "tea party" event that was held where I live, for the reasons you stated.

But very quickly after that (and because of Killgore's incessant warnings), I started checking and discovered the local movement was headed by members of "The Constitution Party", a really whacked out group, imo.

'92 IIRC they ran a candidate for gov. and just like the national race with Perot gave us 8 years of a (D) governor.

60 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:51:53am

re: #48 laZardo

Individually-speaking, the neighbor would probably believe Joe-six-pack although he might be a little suspicious afterward. Collectively they'd believe the news reports.

I think.

Collectively, if push came to shove, they'd tar and feather Joe Six-Pack to quell any perceived demons. That is the danger, IMHO. Fear, as such, keeps people quiet and allow the status quo. Those who want power depend on it.

61 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:52:32am

re: #47 irongrampa

A bit earlier, on another website, caught a twitter feed that purported to say DC police did estimate that crowd size. Can't vouch for the veracity, obviously, so this is simply a fwiw.

I found this one, but it's a bit lower. I'm guessing that's low, but I'll stick to by under 100K guess.

The latest American Tea Party Express attracted thousands of residents Monday as they descended upon New Lenox Labor Day morning.

"The unexpectedly large crowd caused traffic to be backed up a quarter-mile on Interstate 80 as well as forcing some participants to park one-half mile away from the Commons Performing Arts Pavilion in New Lenox.

Police indicated a crowd of 8,000 to 10,000 people showed for the event, far more than they were prepared for or anticipated. Despite the snarled traffic, the event went smoothly with little problems for an event of this size."

crowd.

62 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:52:37am

re: #49 BigPapa

What about all the other neighbors who don't talk to Joe Six Pack and now think he's a whacked out loon and now won't talk to him because of their perception?

Will there be a lot of them? I really don't know which is why I've asked.

The purpose of asking the question is that I think if the news reports carry more credibility than the neighbor (played out on a large scale of course), then that would be a strong indicator that public perception is that the movement or whatever it is has mainstreamed the loons.

If not, that would be an indicator to me that public perception is accepting the birchers, etc. has being in the mainstream of the movement despite there efforts.

No doubt someone will be polling this kind of stuff after the fact I would guess.

63 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:52:38am

re: #18 Charles

Can anyone tell me what the goal of this protest is?

to further inflate glenn beck's ego?

64 davesax  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:53:10am

Meanwhile, last night the Obama administration announced that it will indeed go ahead with unconditional talks to Iran. No sanctions, nor threat of what Susan Rice called "artificial" deadlines.

It has also extended a hand to North Korea.

Looks like Roger Cohen was telling the truth in last month's NYT magazine article when he said that Obama will let Iran go nuclear.

65 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:53:13am

re: #50 ggt

I'm trying to remember all the whacky stuff we saw from the Left during the last administration. I don't remember anyone denouncing Code Pink or Cindy Sheehan (in public, or by the way of the MSM).

I didn't hear any outcry over Rev Wright or Bill Ayers during the election.

So, my question, if the GOP is concerned about how the fringe will affect them, do we have any evidence the Dem's feel the same way about the Left fringe?

It doesn't matter. They didn't do it (keep a tight ship) and it was wrong. If we do it, it is wrong. 'They did it' is not a reason for the GOP to do it.

We shouldn't do it. It's that simple.

66 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:53:43am

re: #43 Charles

In other words, there's no goal at all. It's an unfocused expression of general rage.

I would agree it's unfocused, but my take is that there are numerous goals as diverse as the types of attendees.

67 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:53:53am

re: #64 davesax

Meanwhile, last night the Obama administration announced that it will indeed go ahead with unconditional talks to Iran. No sanctions, nor threat of what Susan Rice called "artificial" deadlines.

It has also extended a hand to North Korea.

Looks like Roger Cohen was telling the truth in last month's NYT magazine article when he said that Obama will let Iran go nuclear.

Link?

68 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:53:56am

re: #62 Pianobuff

Will there be a lot of them? I really don't know which is why I've asked.

The purpose of asking the question is that I think if the news reports carry more credibility than the neighbor (played out on a large scale of course), then that would be a strong indicator that public perception is that the movement or whatever it is has mainstreamed the loons.

If not, that would be an indicator to me that public perception is not accepting the birchers, etc. as being in the mainstream of the movement despite their efforts.

No doubt someone will be polling this kind of stuff after the fact I would guess.

PIMF

69 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:54:00am

re: #59 jcm

'92 IIRC they ran a candidate for gov. and just like the national race with Perot gave us 8 years of a (D) governor.

I'm not going to link to them, but you can find their website easily via google.
From their website:

Preamble
The Constitution Party gratefully acknowledges the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the Universe and of these United States. We hereby appeal to Him for mercy, aid, comfort, guidance and the protection of His Providence as we work to restore and preserve these United States.

This great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been and are afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

The goal of the Constitution Party is to restore American jurisprudence to its Biblical foundations and to limit the federal government to its Constitutional boundaries.

The Constitution of these United States provides that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." The Constitution Party supports the original intent of this language. Therefore, the Constitution Party calls on all those who love liberty and value their inherent rights to join with us in the pursuit of these goals and in the restoration of these founding principles.

The U.S. Constitution established a Republic rooted in Biblical law, administered by representatives who are Constitutionally elected by the citizens. In such a Republic all Life, Liberty and Property are protected because law rules.

71 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:54:59am

Any protest for any reason attracts extremist nuts. It seems that the only cohesive goal of the Tea Party Movement is smaller government through lower taxes and disassembling of bureaucracy. Is someone's support of that goal tainted because Ron Paul, Lyndon LaRouche and John Birch activists show up?

Are all of the goals of the Anti-Iraq War protesters tainted because A.N.S.W.E.R., Pro-Jihad and Anti-Globalist activists show up?

If so, how can anyone publicly protest anything without getting the taint of extremism on them?

72 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:09am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

They call themselve the Constitution Party yet want to overthrow the First Amendment. Orwellian.

73 irongrampa  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:12am

re: #61 avanti

Um, that was a separate event.

74 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:14am

re: #66 Danny

I would agree it's unfocused, but my take is that there are numerous goals as diverse as the types of attendees.

And if there are numerous diverse goals, then there is nothing that will be "accomplished".

75 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:23am

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

It's no wonder the extremists like the Paulians, Birchers, and theocratic groups are glomming on to this. There's no clear goal, and no clear leadership that will keep out the nuts.

On the contrary -- they're encouraging the nuts. The official website for this event has links to all kinds of extremist groups.

76 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:38am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

Historically ignorant, as well as of the New Testament.

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:55:44am

re: #65 BigPapa

It doesn't matter. They didn't do it (keep a tight ship) and it was wrong. If we do it, it is wrong. 'They did it' is not a reason for the GOP to do it.

We shouldn't do it. It's that simple.

I didn't mean to imply that the GOP should ignore the fringe. I'm just wondering at the continued double-standard. Left-wing whackos are laughed off and Right-wing whackos are taken seriously. I think that is dangerous.

78 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:56:14am

re: #62 Pianobuff

The purpose of asking the question is that I think if the news reports carry more credibility than the neighbor (played out on a large scale of course), then that would be a strong indicator that public perception is that the movement or whatever it is has mainstreamed the loons.

If not, that would be an indicator to me that public perception is accepting the birchers, etc. has being in the mainstream of the movement despite there efforts.

That is what is happening and it is bad. Doubling down is not the right way to go. I wish the Left had done it with the Code Kooks/Sheehans long ago but that's not relevant now.

79 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:56:21am

You'll never keep out the nuts.

80 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:56:34am

re: #71 NukeAtomrod

Any protest for any reason attracts extremist nuts. It seems that the only cohesive goal of the Tea Party Movement is smaller government through lower taxes and disassembling of bureaucracy. Is someone's support of that goal tainted because Ron Paul, Lyndon LaRouche and John Birch activists show up?

Are all of the goals of the Anti-Iraq War protesters tainted because A.N.S.W.E.R., Pro-Jihad and Anti-Globalist activists show up?

Yes.

81 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:56:42am

re: #54 rightymouse

Where are you getting your 1.8 million from? I've seen about a million.

I found it
here..

The park service used the post's estimate since they used satellite images and the rest.

82 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:56:56am

re: #71 NukeAtomrod

Is someone's support of that goal tainted because Ron Paul, Lyndon LaRouche and John Birch activists show up?

Yes.

83 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:57:23am

re: #82 Charles

Yes.

guilt by association?

84 rightymouse  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:57:45am

Gotta go get ready for my son's b-day party!

Do try and not be paranoid about this. There are a lot of good folks there. When we focus on the few, we minimize the rest.

Just a thought.

85 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:57:46am

re: #75 Charles

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

It's no wonder the extremists like the Paulians, Birchers, and thoecratic groups are glomming on to this. There's no clear goal, and no clear leadership that will keep out the nuts.

On the contrary -- they're encouraging the nuts. The official website for this event has links to all kinds of extremist groups.

Populist Rageing tm.

I didn't want to win elections anymore anyway... yeah...that's it.

86 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:57:53am

re: #78 BigPapa

That is what is happening and it is bad. Doubling down is not the right way to go. I wish the Left had done it with the Code Kooks/Sheehans long ago but that's not relevant now.

See my #68. I left out a "not" in the original post which changed the meaning of the question possibly.

87 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:57:55am

re: #73 irongrampa

Um, that was a separate event.

Well crap, back to google.:)

88 laZardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:58:51am

Headin' to bed. Cheers.

89 ROP?LOL  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:59:27am

I'm amazed that everyone here is talking about the "fringe lunatics" involved in the protest(s), but not a word about the fringe lunatics running the Congress and White House (IMHO).

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:00:01am

hmmm, I'm remembering some quote from Marx (or someone like him) that the "masses need a myth".

I think "some" of the masses are realizing that their myth is shattered (and they are probably about 50 years behind reality).

Perhaps that is the purpose of the protest.

91 BothAndWorld  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:00:24am

The one in Phoenix this morning was going to feature speakers from the John Birch Society, National Constitutional Studies(Cleon Skousen's organization) and a bunch of Ron Paul supporters. Sadly it was hosted by a respectable local radio station and some site called AnyStreet.org.

I understand that people are mad about our current situation but to have an otherwise honorable movement hijacked by crazies is unacceptable.

92 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:00:39am

re: #83 ggt

guilt by association?

Not guilt. Taint.

We're talking about an event organized, promoted and heavily attended by Birchers and Ronulans. Every single person there is a body those morons get to count as "support," and the media will - rightly - present it in exactly the same way: Not only were the events sponsored by kooks like the neo-Nazis, Ronulans and birthers, but look at the vast number of people who turned out to support such groups.

Slime gets on everything.

93 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:00:41am

If I can throw Ayers, Wright, and the host of other radicals Obama hung out with, though unsuccessfully, then by the same measure we, conservatives who ascribe to that label, can be painted the same way when teh Luap Nor / Birchers etc. show up.

94 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:01:07am

re: #71 NukeAtomrod

Any protest for any reason attracts extremist nuts. It seems that the only cohesive goal of the Tea Party Movement is smaller government through lower taxes and disassembling of bureaucracy. Is someone's support of that goal tainted because Ron Paul, Lyndon LaRouche and John Birch activists show up?

Are all of the goals of the Anti-Iraq War protesters tainted because A.N.S.W.E.R., Pro-Jihad and Anti-Globalist activists show up?

If so, how can anyone publicly protest anything without getting the taint of extremism on them?

Ron Paul and other activists aren't just showing up, they are driving these protests, and lots of people have no clue they are being used.

And in my opinion, the same sort of taint applies to true conscientious war objectors who protest in the company of unseemly groups.

95 irongrampa  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:01:12am

Time to go and attend our local Tea Party event.

Please have a fine day, good people.

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:01:39am

re: #92 SixDegrees

Not guilt. Taint.

We're talking about an event organized, promoted and heavily attended by Birchers and Ronulans. Every single person there is a body those morons get to count as "support," and the media will - rightly - present it in exactly the same way: Not only were the events sponsored by kooks like the neo-Nazis, Ronulans and birthers, but look at the vast number of people who turned out to support such groups.

Slime gets on everything.

So, how can the average concerned citizen participate in the political process?

97 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:01:39am

re: #75 Charles

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

It's no wonder the extremists like the Paulians, Birchers, and thoecratic groups are glomming on to this. There's no clear goal, and no clear leadership that will keep out the nuts.

On the contrary -- they're encouraging the nuts. The official website for this event has links to all kinds of extremist groups.

That's the problem with populism. It can serve as a means for more extreme elements to mainstream themselves, and when a populist movement comes along without leadership or a focused goal- it leads to this. We are now seeing the mainstreaming of far-right elements, and too many are not even troubled by it. That's what I find most disturbing.

98 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:01:40am

re: #88 laZardo

Headin' to bed. Cheers.

Sweet dreams.

99 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:02:20am

re: #83 ggt

guilt by association?

Nobody's hiding these connections. They're right there on the organizer's website.

Yes, guilt by association. If you see all of this going on and do nothing about it except look the other way, you're allowing these groups to co-opt the "movement."

I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp. I suspect it's because they either: 1) just don't care, or 2) see nothing wrong with groups like the John Birch Society.

100 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:02:31am

re: #96 ggt

So, how can the average concerned citizen participate in the political process?

The Right has to figure out how to protest. It doesn't come naturally.

101 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #80 SixDegrees

Yes.

re: #82 Charles

Yes.

Fair enough. Can you please answer the question too?

If so, how can anyone publicly protest anything without getting the taint of extremism on them?

Or is that the point? Is protesting in itself an extreme act?

(I don't go to protests, myself. I can't stand all the crazies that show up.)

102 yma o hyd  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:02:40am

re: #75 Charles

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

It's no wonder the extremists like the Paulians, Birchers, and thoecratic groups are glomming on to this. There's no clear goal, and no clear leadership that will keep out the nuts.

On the contrary -- they're encouraging the nuts. The official website for this event has links to all kinds of extremist groups.

Exactly!
And they will provide a focus point for all those free-floating angry people who want their voice heard, who want something done - and only have the choice of free-floating feelings - or these thuggish groups.

Nobody seems to learn from history any longer ...

103 shifty  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:02:56am

Notice how nothing is on fire.

104 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:03:01am

re: #96 ggt

So, how can the average concerned citizen participate in the political process?

What!? Letters / emails / faxes / phone calls don't work!?

/They don't...I have many form letter emails and letters as proof. They are in their ivory towers and protests have no effect. Only hope is the 'vote'.

105 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:03:02am

re: #100 debutaunt

The Right has to figure out how to protest. It doesn't come naturally.

Step 1: lose the tricorne hats.

106 borgcube  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:03:05am

re: #18 Charles

To protest a federal government so far removed from the intentions of the founders and the Constitution?

I think many here have been very unfair to the tea baggers in general. You don't get crowds this large mostly comprised of John Birch members an such. I doubt most of the people in that crowd even know anything about John Birch.

I have not been to a tea party, but I did attend a protest at my local post office on April 15th. I'm not sure if that was a tea party planned event or not. I can tell you that I didn't see one crazy or nasty sign and that even the drivers of the large postal 18 wheelers pulling up the street were honking their horns in support. Everyone I saw and spoke to had a similar story, they had never done anything like this, they had never protested anything. Me either. And not one of them had that crazy stare, or wacky clothes, or generalized freakish appearance that you see at every angle at Zombie's site for example. Most of these people I spoke to were small business owners like myself who were just pissed off at being the never ending target of an out of control expanding government and for once decided to protest.

When most of the booths at these rallies start selling nothing but birther crap, Earth is 6000 years old crap, 9-11 truther crap, or the equivalent stuff you see which is the norm at the lunatic left protests, then I'll know it's time to move on. It's not right to associate everyone at these protests with the nutters just because a small percentage of them are wacked. However, if Scrotum Man shows up, crazy booths or not, I'm outta there.

Until then, I support them.

107 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:03:53am

re: #96 ggt

So, how can the average concerned citizen participate in the political process?

Pointless question. This isn't the political process; it's a mob of repugnant lunatics.

Conservatives can help by staying as far away from such crap as possible, so as not to tarnish the movement with such corrosive bile. Again: every body there will be counted by the Birchers, Nazis and Ronulans as a vote of support for their odious cause.

I want absolutely no part of any of it.

108 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:04:05am

re: #79 Danny

You'll never keep out the nuts.

From the rally? No.

From the organizational perspective and crafting of message strategy, yes you can. The problem isn't that some joker shows up at a low taxation rally with a 'water the tree of liberty' sign and an AK. The problem is that groups who believe in those signs and that message (showing up to rallies with AK's when the President is nearby) are part of the promotion and therefore crafting of the message.

That is bad, and that can be controlled.

109 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:04:16am

re: #79 Danny

You'll never keep out the nuts.

But we can make them feel unwelcome with a better message.

Auditing the Fed will not keep Congress from spending what they want.

110 Paul Sorene  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:05:08am

Muslims in post-9/11 staring horror - really:
[Link: www.anorak.co.uk...]
Your text to link...

111 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:05:21am

OT

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Census Bureau on Friday severed its ties with ACORN, a community organization that has been hit with Republican accusations of voter-registration fraud.
"We do not come to this decision lightly," Census director Robert Groves wrote in a letter to ACORN, which was obtained by The Associated Press.

In splitting with ACORN, Groves sought to tamp down GOP concerns and negative publicity that the partnership will taint the 2010 head count.

112 KernelPanic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:06:14am

Only numbers I can find online are from the NYT website which states "tens of thousands" and "police not providing precise crowd estimate".

113 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:06:15am

Hey BigPapa! I think this is #113. Does this mean you owe me $1? ;-)

114 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:06:20am

re: #106 borgcube

It's not right to associate everyone at these protests with the nutters just because a small percentage of them are wacked.

The organizers are whacked. The "leadership" of this "movement" consists largely of Ron Paul fanatics. But fine -- don't look at that.

And that attitude is exactly why I want nothing to do with this disgraceful event.

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:06:21am

re: #104 Oh no...Sand People!

What!? Letters / emails / faxes / phone calls don't work!?

/They don't...I have many form letter emails and letters as proof. They are in their ivory towers and protests have no effect. Only hope is the 'vote'.

Well, every time I send a letter to Dick Durbin protesting his stance on certain issue , I get a form letter in reply thanking me for agreeing with the Senator and thanking me for my support.

I try to protest with my dollar. Certain things I buy, certain things I don't.

116 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:06:51am

re: #99 Charles

Nobody's hiding these connections. They're right there on the organizer's website.

Yes, guilt by association. If you see all of this going on and do nothing about it except look the other way, you're allowing these groups to co-opt the "movement."

I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp. I suspect it's because they either: 1) just don't care, or 2) see nothing wrong with groups like the John Birch Society.

I agree with Charles.
I wish for the exposure of the Obama mentoring and frineds roup: Wright, Khalidi, Franklin, Pfleger: as fine a group of marxists in deed as has ever been assembled.
The Cairo apology tour was particularly appalling.

117 laZardo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:07:16am

re: #98 MandyManners

Thanks, MM.

118 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:07:19am

re: #106 borgcube

To protest a federal government so far removed from the intentions of the founders and the Constitution?

I think many here have been very unfair to the tea baggers in general. You don't get crowds this large mostly comprised of John Birch members an such. I doubt most of the people in that crowd even know anything about John Birch.

People need to understand where the ideas they are supporting come from, and what may result from giving their support to those ideas. Radicalizing the opposition to the party in power, may not be such a good idea.

According to the JBS theory, liberals provide the cover for the gradual process of collectivism, therefore many liberals and their allies must actually be secret communist traitors whose ultimate goal is to replace the nations of western civilization with one-world socialist government. "There are many stages of` welfarism, socialism, and collectivism in general," wrote Welch, "but communism is the ultimate state of them all, and they all lead inevitably in that direction." A core tenet of the JBS was that the US is a republic not a democracy, and that collectivism has eroded that distinction.
119 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:07:53am

OT: I saw a news item about Michael Jordan giving a really petty speech at his induction into the Hall of Fame. Did anyone see this?

120 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:08:59am

re: #118 jaunte

Welch and the JBS make a slippery slope argument which is so far not borne out by the nation's experience.

121 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:11:01am

re: #97 Sharmuta

That's the problem with populism. It can serve as a means for more extreme elements to mainstream themselves, and when a populist movement comes along without leadership or a focused goal- it leads to this. We are now seeing the mainstreaming of far-right elements, and too many are not even troubled by it. That's what I find most disturbing.

How many don't look past the first layer? And are just pissed.
Look at the election for Obama, hope and change but few voters look beyond.

Political wonks are really few and far between, there is a concentration here, but most people have no clue wants behind RP, the Birchers etc... they see the surface and don't look farther.

I'm not excusing the ignorance, it just is, and it exists on both sides. I wager 80% of the people don't look to far past issues other than what's on the surface.

122 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:11:18am

re: #109 Sharmuta

But we can make them feel unwelcome with a better message.

I agree. How does one go about doing that with a grassroots movement?

123 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:11:29am

re: #116 Taqyia2Me

I agree with Charles.
I wish for the exposure of the Obama mentoring and frineds roup: Wright, Khalidi, Franklin, Pfleger: as fine a group of marxists in deed as has ever been assembled.
The Cairo apology tour was particularly appalling.

These connections were exposed here, actually, during the campaign.

124 FamHistoryGuy  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:12:15am

How many people does each marcher represent? Those that can not take the time off or afford the money to travel to D. C.? Perhaps the numbers that showed up will cause a politician or two to wonder about how safe their seat is at the next election.

125 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:12:25am

re: #123 reine.de.tout

re: #116 Taqyia2Me


These connections were exposed here, actually, during the campaign.

Exposed here, but quite literally quashed just about everywhere else.

126 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:12:34am

re: #122 Danny

I agree. How does one go about doing that with a grassroots movement?

I'm not convinced this is a "grass-roots" movement.
It's been made to appear that way; but if you go looking, you will see that it is very carefully planned and orchestrated.

127 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:13:16am

re: #112 KernelPanic

Only numbers I can find online are from the NYT website which states "tens of thousands" and "police not providing precise crowd estimate".

I guessed under 100K, and may be proved wrong, but no way it's a million.

128 FamHistoryGuy  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:13:53am

re: #123 reine.de.tout

And how many read about it here? If it was covered in the press, it was with ridicule.

129 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:13:53am

re: #125 Taqyia2Me

Exposed here, but quite literally quashed just about everywhere else.

I agree with that.
But I also do not see any exposure of the "tea party" connections anywhere but here.
Lots of media outlets are poking fun at what they call the "tea baggers". But they aren't really exposing the leadership in the way they should be.

130 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:14:14am

So where were these jerks when GW Bush invaded Iraq and pushed through the Patriot Act?

The purpose of this rally is probably to show "their" colours, in an attempt to attract more like minded drones to the cause of demonizing the President.

I just hope (pun intended) they stay on the East Coast. Please, don't migrate West!

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:14:20am

re: #123 reine.de.tout

These connections were exposed here, actually, during the campaign.

By whom? Fox news and the so-called right-wing blogs. Did the MSM really expose the connections? Does the average citizen really know the connections?

132 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:14:36am

re: #118 jaunte

More on Robert Welsh and JBS from Buckley:

The society had been founded in 1958 by an earnest and capable entrepreneur named Robert Welch, a candy man, who brought together little clusters of American conservatives, most of them businessmen. He demanded two undistracted days in exchange for his willingness to give his seminar on the Communist menace to the United States, which he believed was more thoroughgoing and far-reaching than anyone else in America could have conceived. His influence was near-hypnotic, and his ideas wild. He said Dwight D. Eisenhower was a “dedicated, conscious agent of the Communist conspiracy,” and that the government of the United States was “under operational control of the Communist party.” It was, he said in the summer of 1961, “50-70 percent” Communist-controlled.

I think we're seeing a resurgence in this line of thinking, where the Obama administration has been tarred as communist, and we're "back" to having 50-70% communist controlled government. This plays completely into the hands of the Birchers, and we're seeing their talking points pop up all over the place as a result because people are believing the hysteria over reality.

133 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:15:33am

re: #126 reine.de.tout

I'm not convinced this is a "grass-roots" movement.
It's been made to appear that way; but if you go looking, you will see that it is very carefully planned and orchestrated.

It's definitely planned, but I don't think it's carefully orchestrated at all. If it were, there'd be a clear message.

134 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:16:03am

re: #131 ggt

By whom? Fox news and the so-called right-wing blogs. Did the MSM really expose the connections? Does the average citizen really know the connections?

NO, they don't. Which is why I said they were exposed here, meaning LGF.
And the "tea party" connections are likewise being exposed here, at LGF, and not in the media they way it should be exposed.

The average citizen did not want to know about Obama's connections; and they don't want to know about the "tea party" connections, either.

135 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:16:49am

re: #94 reine.de.tout

Ron Paul and other activists aren't just showing up, they are driving these protests, and lots of people have no clue they are being used.

And in my opinion, the same sort of taint applies to true conscientious war objectors who protest in the company of unseemly groups.

True. And A.N.S.W.E.R. organized the Anti-Iraq War protests. Does that mean everyone who showed up there suppors communism? I don't think so. At least, I hope that isn't the case. Professional activists and organizers are probably all scumbags, but people show up because to the protests' cause.

Pull out the troops, in the case of the Anti-Iraq War-ers.
Get the government out of our lives, in the Case of the Tea Party-ers.

And the attendees probably don't even know anything about the organizers, who are just opportunists anyway (Trying to raise money for themselves and their own goals any time the public becomes enraged about anything.)

136 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:17:00am

re: #133 Danny

It's definitely planned, but I don't think it's carefully orchestrated at all. If it were, there'd be a clear message.

I think the planners deliberately want the 'message' to be unclear. Really.

137 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:17:04am

re: #106 borgcube

When most of the booths at these rallies start selling nothing but birther crap, Earth is 6000 years old crap, 9-11 truther crap, or the equivalent stuff you see which is the norm at the lunatic left protests, then I'll know it's time to move on...
Until then, I support them.

[Link: mediamattersaction.org...]

It took me about 30 seconds to find Armey linked with Taitz. Is it a one way or two way connection. The point is that I have to find a statement from Armey that says "Taitz is nuts" or 'I don't believe this birther stuff.'

Until Armey says that, Taitz is not some nut handing out leaflets tagging along at a rally. Taitz is part of the message of Freedom Works until Armey refutes the issue.

To not acknowledge this issue is to ignore it, at the risk of being detrimental to the issues you hold dear.

138 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:17:46am

re: #133 Danny

It's definitely planned, but I don't think it's carefully orchestrated at all. If it were, there'd be a clear message.

Conversely, if one were to try ti establish a "movement" of any sort of size or power, keeping its overall goals and purposes amorphous and ill-defined can serve a valuable purpose - everyone can project his or her own expectations onto it. As happened with Obama, who, by remaining vague and pleasant, was able to appeal to widely disparate groups.

139 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:18:10am

re: #82 Charles

Yes.

I would submit that the majority of these people wouldn't know Ron Paul from Les Paul and are likely wholly unaware of Birchers and their ilk. Had this been billed in the way some are characterizing it, it would truly be scary. This isn't, however, the Nuremberg Rally or anything like it.

Most people are not as in tune with the arcane world of political affiliations as many of us here on this board. In all fairness, they simply do not have the time or the inclination; they hear what they like and they go for it. That's the sad truth.

There's a lot of frustration out there, among normal Americans, on subjects from health care, to rising deficits, to the taxation that will eventually pay for it and this is an expression of that frustration.

The organizers, or unfortunate participation of unpalatable groups and/or persons notwithstanding, a lot of good, honest Americans are there and painting them all with the same "extremist" brush is not quite fair.

140 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:18:43am

re: #136 reine.de.tout

So, orchestrated disarray? Mmmm-kay.

141 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:18:44am

re: #113 Danny

Hey BigPapa! I think this is #113. Does this mean you owe me $1? ;-)

Sorry, it's $1 on any post 113 in any thread, in perpetuity... LOL.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:18:53am

I don't believe the average citizen really knows what communism is these days. Students aren't taught they way my generation was taught. To them, it's just another option.

Warnings from the older generation are taken with a grain of salt.

143 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:03am

re: #99 Charles

Nobody's hiding these connections. They're right there on the organizer's website.

Yes, guilt by association. If you see all of this going on and do nothing about it except look the other way, you're allowing these groups to co-opt the "movement."

I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp. I suspect it's because they either: 1) just don't care, or 2) see nothing wrong with groups like the John Birch Society.

I'd like to add a #3 to this - and i say this as one who has been an activist for nearly 3 years now (w/SFVoice4Israel):

3) They are ignorant of the facts at hand & cannot distinguish between said facts and propaganda.

144 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:22am

re: #141 BigPapa

Dang. Oh well, can't blame me for trying. :)

145 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:35am

re: #126 reine.de.tout

I'm not convinced this is a "grass-roots" movement.
It's been made to appear that way; but if you go looking, you will see that it is very carefully planned and orchestrated.

Yes, Reine. Ron Paul has been doing tea parties for years. This isn't new, but it is exactly how the fringe latches onto a populist issue with the intent of mainstreaming themselves. And it's working.

146 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:52am

People are sick and tired of politicians spending this country into bankruptcy. Shoving bills, bailouts down their throats. C-Span is carrying it live so can make our own judgement about their motives.

147 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:20:09am

re: #135 NukeAtomrod

And the attendees probably don't even know anything about the organizers, who are just opportunists anyway (Trying to raise money for themselves and their own goals any time the public becomes enraged about anything.)

Talking about the goals of the organizing groups here may help spread the message to many attendees that it's useful to carefully examine the political messages they want to support.

148 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #138 Guanxi88

Conversely, if one were to try ti establish a "movement" of any sort of size or power, keeping its overall goals and purposes amorphous and ill-defined can serve a valuable purpose - everyone can project his or her own expectations onto it. As happened with Obama, who, by remaining vague and pleasant, was able to appeal to widely disparate groups.

Yes!
Excellent explanation.

149 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:22:10am

re: #146 Chekote

People are sick and tired of politicians spending this country into bankruptcy. Shoving bills, bailouts down their throats. C-Span is carrying it live so can make our own judgement about their motives.

We all understand that. That's not the problem. The problem is- what proposals to stop this spending are these protests promoting?

150 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:22:25am

re: #140 Danny

So, orchestrated disarray? Mmmm-kay.

Guanxi explained it better here:
re: #138 Guanxi88

Conversely, if one were to try ti establish a "movement" of any sort of size or power, keeping its overall goals and purposes amorphous and ill-defined can serve a valuable purpose - everyone can project his or her own expectations onto it. As happened with Obama, who, by remaining vague and pleasant, was able to appeal to widely disparate groups.

151 borgcube  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:22:30am

re: #114 Charles

I think that's fair Charles. I also believe that most of these people have no idea about any of that. I can't even remember how I found out about the little rally I went to at the post office back in April. But I know it wasn't because I got a memo from a Bircher, Birther, Creationist, and such. I think I got a phone call from my business partner who said there was a rally to protest taxes and the out of control spending. The decision to go was made with about 15 minutes notice. I grabbed the little 5"X7" American flag in my home office and off I went. I truly believe these protests are genuine in nature, from the heart by the vast majority in attendance.

I'm going to watch my lowly SDSU Aztecs tonight. Every single game there are a bunch of Paulians and 9-11 truth signs being carried around by 20-somethings. These jokers are everywhere and don't pass up an opportunity to spread their nonsense. I seriously doubt however that the tea baggers or whatever you want to call them are responding to the siren's call from these freaks in huge numbers, and if they are, they're not up to speed with those people and are doing this in general as a protest to an out of control federal government.

152 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:24:26am

As Bruce Bartlett has said the outrage is misplaced. Where was this anger when the GOP was spending like drunken sailors? These people are protesting an invisible boogieman.

153 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:12am

re: #146 Chekote

People are sick and tired of politicians spending this country into bankruptcy. Shoving bills, bailouts down their throats. C-Span is carrying it live so can make our own judgement about their motives.

Dick Armey's on right now.

154 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:37am

The only fiscal proposal I've seen come out of the tea parties is auditing the Fed.

Can anyone tell me how that will reduce deficit spending on the part of Congress?

155 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:37am

Just turned on C-SPAN and in the first minute of watching I saw signs calling Obama a "Bolshevik."

Other signs: "Impeach Obama the Liar."

And dozens of signs with the Joe Wilson phrase "YOU LIE." Wilson's a hero.

Another one: "the real terrorists are most of Congress and the Senate."

156 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:56am

Just saw an Obama-Hitler sign too.

157 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:26:24am

re: #151 borgcube

...I seriously doubt however that the tea baggers or whatever you want to call them are responding to the siren's call from these freaks in huge numbers, and if they are, they're not up to speed with those people and are doing this in general as a protest to an out of control federal government.

That kind of stuff isn't happening here. The 'teabaggers' pedantry is what we're trying to prevent by pointing out the associations of the Birther/Nirthers or racists.

We are very responsible in our pedantry and insults!

158 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:26:43am

"End the Federal Reserve - We aren't slaves."

159 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:27:09am

"Homeland Security - Here I Am."

160 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:27:21am

I don't know anything about this march except what I read here. In fact, I had no idea it was even happening until I saw it on LGF this morning.

However, I think it's worth mentioning another march from the not-to-distant past. That march was led by a known antisemite and racist. There was nothing, absolutely nothing, that was unknown about his racism and antisemitism when he organized and led that march.

The march was the so called "Million Man March" and was organized and led by Louis Farrakhan.

In the crowd that day was one individual named Barrack Obama.


[Link: blogs.forward.com...]

161 pat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:27:34am

Latest estimate is 1,200,000

162 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:06am

More Obama Hitler signs.

163 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:10am

I bet this gathering smells better than the ANSWER/CODE-PINK gatherings.

164 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:45am

Did regular people accuse LBJ of being a communist?

165 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:49am

re: #149 Sharmuta

I think the main goal right now is to stop the bleeding. The financial bleeding that is banktupting the country. Once that is done we can proceed to mend the patient for the long term.

166 little boomer  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:03am

"our END THE FED slim jim"?
Like heartburn inducing slim jims?

167 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:04am

Now they're showing a woman with her eyes closed, praying fervently, with a sign that says "The Beck stops here."

168 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:04am

re: #41 _RememberTonyC

I think that is an oversimplification. I'm willing to bet that a portion of the crowd voted for BHO but many are concerned that his moderation on the campaign trail has been replaced by a more left of center governing plan that many would NOT have voted for.

Wow from my perspective he was way more left on the campaign trail and much more moderate now that he's in office. I make no claim to know how those folks would feel though.

169 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:05am

re: #161 pat

Latest estimate is 1,200,000

By who? Links, please.

170 pat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:25am

re: #163 MandyManners

lol, because they are all in Brooks Bros suits? sayeth Nancy Pelosi

171 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:34am

re: #154 Sharmuta

The only fiscal proposal I've seen come out of the tea parties is auditing the Fed.

Can anyone tell me how that will reduce deficit spending on the part of Congress?

Sharm, it's only by returning to the gold standard that we can prevent the Banksters fom completing their enslavement of the American people and the theft of the welath of the world through fiat currency manipulation, inflation, usury, and drinking, dicing, and swearing of oaths. Auditing the fed will provide the sound and reasonable folks suggesting this excellent idea the opportunity to show the many virtues and benefits of an 18th century monetary system by highlighting the errors, folly, and judaic evil of the federal reserve system.
//

172 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:35am

"I didn't vote for this Obamanation."

173 little boomer  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:41am

re: #164 jaunte

No, a fascist.

174 livefreeor die  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:44am

re: #163 MandyManners

I bet this gathering smells better than the ANSWER/CODE-PINK gatherings.

And no one is running around exposing inflated testicles. Or their anti-war breasts.

175 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:48am

I just saw FCBBHO photo-shopped onto a photo of Che.

Where was that FCBBHO campaign office with his photo? Texas?

176 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:49am

re: #75 Charles

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

It's no wonder the extremists like the Paulians, Birchers, and theocratic groups are glomming on to this. There's no clear goal, and no clear leadership that will keep out the nuts.

On the contrary -- they're encouraging the nuts. The official website for this event has links to all kinds of extremist groups.

You will also note they have ties to fox. We already know Glen Beck is pimping this hard, and if you look a JBS they lobbied and got their leader on Napolitano's show back in June. Fox is starting to become the JBS mouthpiece.

177 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:56am

"Obama Lies, Grandpa Dies."

178 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:59am

re: #172 Charles

"I didn't vote for this Obamanation."

What's wrong with that? I didn't either.

179 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:32am

Charles

There are also signs that are patriotic, about the defict, spending and the rest.

180 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:35am

re: #175 MandyManners

I just saw FCBBHO photo-shopped onto a photo of Che.

Where was that FCBBHO campaign office with his photo? Texas?

Yep, Houston, to be exact.

181 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:41am

re: #152 trendsurfer

As Bruce Bartlett has said the outrage is misplaced. Where was this anger when the GOP was spending like drunken sailors? These people are protesting an invisible boogieman.

Exactly. These people are RAGING hypocrites. I remember reading a figure that put spending for the Iraq War in 2008 at $12Billion MONTHLY. Every. Month, $12 billion out the door with contractors sucking it up at our expense. Why are they not screaming about this?

182 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:43am

re: #174 livefreeor die

And no one is running around exposing inflated testicles. Or their anti-war breasts.

I knew SOMETHING was missing?

183 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:46am

re: #163 MandyManners

You've smelled a code pink rally??
Your tougher than I thought!!
I spent the morning exercising my 2nd Amendment rights!
Much more fun...

184 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #178 Danny

What's wrong with that? I didn't either.

Can't lie, I thought that one was clever personally.

185 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:23am

re: #149 Sharmuta

We all understand that. That's not the problem. The problem is- what proposals to stop this spending are these protests promoting?

Simple, stop spending our money. Let us spend it. Bring back gridlock. Some of my favorite congresses passed nothing.

186 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:31am

Who's this guy? Seems like a creep. On the podium that is.

187 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:31am

re: #180 Guanxi88

Yep, Houston, to be exact.

I thought it was Austin.

188 livefreeor die  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:33am

re: #182 MandyManners

I knew SOMETHING was missing?

We're also down a giant duck puppet.

189 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:40am

More Obama Hitler signs.

190 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:00am

re: #186 Gus 802

Watching CNN here. That is.

191 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:12am

Now there's a car salesman on stage, talking about how angry he is.

192 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:29am

Obama stoled my bizniz!

193 galtg  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:37am

I wanted to attend myself..it's a shame that there are some extremists there, but how do you keep them out...I think the gross majority of attendees are people who are concerned about having 11.7 trillion in debt with another 9 trillion in the pipeline..a real unemployment rate of 16.8% (the U-6, rate not the dumbed down 9.7% the MSM reports)..record high bankruptcies, record high foreclosures with another 2 million coming..no jobs to be had(JOLTS are series low)..a possible trade war with China in the works..etc..etc..

.personally I see an upshot to obama's policies..the working class (who support Obama's policies)will finally get what's coming to them..even higher unemployment..even more foreclosures..and a lower standard of living..

194 Danny  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:38am

Gotta finish mowing. BBL.

195 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:42am

re: #176 Thanos

You will also note they have ties to fox. We already know Glen Beck is pimping this hard, and if you look a JBS they lobbied and got their leader on Napolitano's show back in June. Fox is starting to become the JBS mouthpiece.

Beck is doing a two hour special pimping the protest, and taking a lot of credit for it. It is going to let us know it's next in his plan.

196 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:47am

re: #187 MandyManners

I thought it was Austin.

Nope, Houston was the famous one. I imagine the Austin office already had one, and so it didn't attract as much attention. (I live there, and trust me...)

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

197 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:47am

In defense of Wilson, Obama is not telling the truth when he says that he will pay for his program from fighting Medicare fraud. When was the last time DC was able to for anything by fighting fraud and wasteful spending?

198 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:48am

Are most of these people that aren't aware of the radical fringe promoting these little get-togethers so numb between the ears they don't care who they get their rage on with, so long as they can collectively be upset? They're standing shoulder to shoulder with the very worst elements of society, and ignoring it, just to rant and holler.

Charles Manson liked music. I like music. Doesn't mean I'd sit down and listen to the Beatles with the psycho sonofabitch.

199 livefreeor die  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:52am

re: #183 reloadingisnotahobby

You've smelled a code pink rally??
Your tougher than I thought!!
I spent the morning exercising my 2nd Amendment rights!
Much more fun...

I'm imagining an odor mix of sweat, cheap perfume, and patchouli. Ick.

200 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:01am

re: #183 reloadingisnotahobby

You've smelled a code pink rally??
Your tougher than I thought!!
I spent the morning exercising my 2nd Amendment rights!
Much more fun...

I thought about doing it this afternoon (range, not smelling CODEPINK) but other stuff has popped up.

201 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:03am

re: #163 MandyManners

I bet this gathering smells better than the ANSWER/CODE-PINK gatherings.

I don't know. Humidity can make one really stinky.

202 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:16am

re: #165 Chekote

I think the main goal right now is to stop the bleeding. The financial bleeding that is banktupting the country. Once that is done we can proceed to mend the patient for the long term.

How is any of this stopping the bleeding? How is targeting the Fed stopping the bleeding?

This is shameless politics on the part of ron paul. Pass the responsibility of fiscal irresponsibility onto the Fed instead of where it rightfully belongs- on him and his colleagues in Congress. Like a true political hack- he knows better than to bite the hand that feeds him. But you're not hearing about Congressional spending reforms at these protests. The message is a demonization of another agency with the intent to deflect where the real scrutiny should be.

203 driftwood  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:30am

re: #75 Charles

Nobody can tell me what the goal of this protest is?

Aren't protests supposed to have goals?

Way back, sometime in this blog's childhood, (2002?) when major protests were being planned/hyped incessantly in various foreign cities, a poster from France was making similar comments about such a gathering near her, that there was no unified point to it all. I have always liked the term she used: 'convergence of insanities.'

204 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:30am

re: #192 Charles

Obama stoled my bizniz!

Would be good to fact check this guy. Wouldn't surprise me if he got a deal from "the government" above market value for his dealership.

205 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:33:33am

re: #188 livefreeor die

We're also down a giant duck puppet.

Eider that or another one.

206 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:07am

The car salesman just said Obama has stolen total control over all three branches of government.

Oh no, nothing extreme about that.

207 little boomer  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:18am

re: #197 Chekote

Wilson already apologized for pointing out that the president was lying.
Obama accepted. Case closed. Or is it Miller Time again?

208 JustMyView  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:20am

re: #37 Pianobuff

Here's something I wonder about. In light of the fact that the media will be looking to highlight the loons, imagine this scenario:

Your premise is incorrect. I've been watching CNN, and they interviewed a range of people--notably, several very ordinary middle-class guys who seemed to be in their early sixties, who said they were worried about the debt that grandchildren would face.

Also, the 1+ million estimate of crowd size cannot be accurate. The city and regional governments prepared for weeks to handle the crowd at the Obama inauguration. WaPo is saying "tens of thousands", which is still a lot of people, but nowhere near one million.

209 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:36am

re: #202 Sharmuta

But you're not hearing about Congressional spending reforms at these protests. The message is a demonization of another agency with the intent to deflect where the real scrutiny should be.

Ding ding. This is worth repeating again and again.

210 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:39am

We Are Like Them.

Bush=Hitler signs bad.
Obama=Hitler signs not bad, no big deal?
Problem or not?

211 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:57am

re: #185 Blastforth

Simple, stop spending our money. Let us spend it. Bring back gridlock. Some of my favorite congresses passed nothing.

But that's not what's being proposed by the tea party crowd. Have you noticed that?

212 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #178 Danny

What's wrong with that? I didn't either.

Did you vote?

You entered into a consent agreement of sorts to abide by the results of the election. Because our horse didn't win doesn't mean it invalidates the government. Our "job" is as the loyal (to the country, the Constitution) opposition. Be informed, be vocal, in my case letters to the legislatures etc... about the issues.

213 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:38am

There are so many Obama-Hitler signs there it's not worth pointing out any more. They're everywhere.

214 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:49am

re: #198 theheat


Charles Manson liked music. I like music. Doesn't mean I'd sit down and listen to the Beatles with the psycho sonofabitch.

That's it, that exactly the best possible counter-argument to the "united front" crap.

215 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:08am

re: #202 Sharmuta

So you think it is a good idea to expand Medicare? Expand a program that is going bankrupt? Or lets have another bailout to reward the inefficient, the reckless but well connected in our society.

216 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:19am

re: #213 Charles

There are so many Obama-Hitler signs there it's not worth pointing out any more. They're everywhere.

Disgusting.

217 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:25am

re: #192 Charles

Obama stoled my bizniz!

I'm still looking for a black or brown face in the crowd, someone help me count.

218 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:29am

re: #176 Thanos

You will also note they have ties to fox. We already know Glen Beck is pimping this hard, and if you look a JBS they lobbied and got their leader on Napolitano's show back in June. Fox is starting to become the JBS mouthpiece.

I'm really starting to appreciate what an effective middleman Glenn Beck has been for the Birch Society. He has credibility with conservatives and a nightly show on FOX. He talks of secret connections between people and various sinister groups, undercover plots, symbolism in architecture, etc. When conservatives encounter JBS literature at these marches it's all going to sound familiar and plausible.

219 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:32am

re: #215 Chekote

So you think it is a good idea to expand Medicare? Expand a program that is going bankrupt? Or lets have another bailout to reward the inefficient, the reckless but well connected in our society.

Where did I say any of that?

220 FamHistoryGuy  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:32am

re: #197 Chekote

Why do they have to wait to fight waste and fraud? Why have they not already eliminated it? What is stopping them?

221 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:37am

The car salesman is now advocating a revolution.

I'll bet anything that he's a Bircher.

222 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #211 Sharmuta

Smaller government, personal responsibility, seems to be a pretty common thread.

223 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:37:27am

re: #161 pat

Latest estimate is 1,200,000

Bullshit.

224 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:37:35am

re: #222 Blastforth

Nice platitudes, to be sure. Where's an actual proposal?

225 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:16am

re: #197 Chekote

In defense of Wilson...

Wilson lost the prerogative on a sophisticated and complex issue by acting unsophisticated and emotional. There is nothing wrong with being emotional but you don't yell out 'LIAR' on national TV during a speech and expect to control the conversation about the reasons for calling him a liar.

There is a time and place for emotions and maybe even an outburst. That was not one of them.

226 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:19am

Goon squads! Regime!

Sounds like last year. /

227 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:39am

This is too disgusting for me to watch. I'm out to mow the lawn

228 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:39:31am
229 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:39:43am

re: #227 Thanos

This is too disgusting for me to watch. I'm out to mow the lawn

Grassicide! The horror!

230 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:39:52am

re: #226 Gus 802

Goon squads! Regime!

Sounds like last year. /

Ask alex jones, and he'll tell you they're two sides of the same coin. Obama is every bit the NWO slaughter-master that W was, working, as they do, for the same secret cabal that seeks to enslave the minuscule portion of the human race they don't exterminate. Right through the looking glass, people.

231 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:10am

re: #164 jaunte

Did regular people accuse LBJ of being a communist?

Irregular people called him a liar.

232 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:16am

Whiners.

233 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:18am

re: #229 jcm

Grassicide! The horror!

You must master horror and make a friend of it, or it will master you. (Col. Kurtz)

234 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:51am

re: #228 macvtm19

Wilson? That you?

235 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:55am

I suppose that the most charitable thing I can say about these Tea Parties would be to compare them with an event like the 1993 March on Washington for GBLTQetc. Civil Rights, which I attended in my final semester of kollidge, and which purportedly drew over 1 million participants, though the official D.C Police and Park Service estimates put the crowd somewhere closer to 300,000.

Among the hundreds of thousands present, were there plenty of embarrassing freakazoids guaranteed to be magnets for TV cameras and thereby make the entire "Community" look bad?
Check!

Did some of the organizers have incredibly fringe-y political views?
OH MAIS OUI!

Did this make the whole thing a waste of time?
Decidedly not -- for a lot of the participants, it was energizing, empowering, a great networking opportunity, something to put on the resume, and more.

236 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:15am

re: #230 Guanxi88

Ask alex jones, and he'll tell you they're two sides of the same coin. Obama is every bit the NWO slaughter-master that W was, working, as they do, for the same secret cabal that seeks to enslave the minuscule portion of the human race they don't exterminate. Right through the looking glass, people.

One of AJ's talking points is to "drop the left-right paradigm".

237 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:24am

re: #167 Charles

Now they're showing a woman with her eyes closed, praying fervently, with a sign that says "The Beck stops here."

Comedy! It has comedy!

238 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:27am

re: #224 Sharmuta

re: #224 Sharmuta

Its not a proposal, it a philosophy. It can be implemented, as the man says, by voting the current crowd out.

239 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:30am

re: #225 BigPapa

Wilson's ploy paid off with at least $200k of donations that came in following his outburst. He swung for the fence and ingratiated himself to the Red Meat Brigade. There was nothing accidental about it.

240 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:33am

James Anderer, the speaker who just finished.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

241 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:41am

"Death to the terrorists!"
WTF?

242 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:10am

re: #219 Sharmuta

re: #220 FamHistoryGuy

Why do they have to wait to fight waste and fraud? Why have they not already eliminated it? What is stopping them?


Exactly. I think Obama is making a mistake by thinking that the opposition to his healthcare is because people are being bamboozled (sp?) Palin, Beck and the rest. People are opposed because his plan makes no sense. Why wait to fight to fraud? You will not cover illegals but have no mechanism to verify status. Prevetative care will save money. It does not.

243 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:28am

Just saw a John Birch Society sign.

244 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:39am

re: #228 macvtm19

Interesting nic, remembrance for the departed... and a certain date; April 19?

245 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #232 jaunte

Chrysler LLC wants to eliminate roughly a quarter of its 3,200 U.S. dealerships by early next month, saying in a bankruptcy court filing Thursday that the network is antiquated and has too many stores competing with each other.

The company, in a motion filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York, said it wants to eliminate 789 dealerships by June 9. Many of the dealers' sales are too low, the automaker said. Just over 50 percent of dealers account for about 90 percent of the company's U.S. sales, the motion said.

Dealers, including Rep. Vernon Buchanan, R-Fla., were told Thursday morning through United Parcel Service letters if they would remain or be eliminated. The move, which the dealers can appeal, is likely to cause devastating effects in cities and towns across the country as thousands of jobs are lost and taxes are not paid.

"I'd like to know who made the decision and why they made the decision," James Anderer, a Jeep dealership owner in Lindenhurst, NY, told CBS News. "I've got single mothers, single fathers here … paycheck to paycheck. And I have to let them go?"

SNIP

Link in No. 240.

246 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #237 debutaunt

Please make the Beck stop here...

247 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:41am

re: #230 Guanxi88

Ask alex jones, and he'll tell you they're two sides of the same coin. Obama is every bit the NWO slaughter-master that W was, working, as they do, for the same secret cabal that seeks to enslave the minuscule portion of the human race they don't exterminate. Right through the looking glass, people.

Yep, seen that already. Alex Jones is behind a lot of the "subtext" in many cases. This guy just said something about Washington having been taken over yet as much as we may not like what's going on they're in there because of an election. Of course this is a lot like the meme of "Bush stole the election." This is part of the NWO conspiracy talking points. That Obama was put in the White House by the Illuminati. Something to that effect.

248 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:42am

"Hitler gave good speeches too."

249 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:59am

re: #235 Throbert McGee

Did this make the whole thing a waste of time?
Decidedly not -- for a lot of the participants, it was energizing, empowering, a great networking opportunity, something to put on the resume, and more.

This points up the argument made by a range of thinkers to the effect that protests and demonstrations are primarily for the benefit of the participants, and constitute a secular/political counterpart to the old processions, feast-days, and carnivals.

250 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:22am

Here comes the Federal Reserve conspiracy!

251 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:26am

re: #244 jcm

Interesting nic, remembrance for the departed... and a certain date; April 19?

Yep, that's what that was. Blocked as soon I saw the username.

252 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:28am

re: #225 BigPapa

Then if we apply you standard Reid, Gore, Pelosi and others also have lost their prerogative since they all called Bush a liar. Pelosi even said that our CIA lies.

253 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:29am

re: #233 Guanxi88

You must master horror and make a friend of it, or it will master you. (Col. Kurtz)

My lawn is the height of Seattle conservative esthetic, a lovely shade of brown.

254 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:51am

re: #243 Charles

Just saw a John Birch Society sign.

"Out of the closet and into the streets!"

255 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #239 theheat

He swung for the fence and ingratiated himself to the Red Meat Brigade. There was nothing accidental about it.

I've heard that postulated and think it highly likely. If so, it's more sinister and troubling.

Shall we just pick one side and jump in with both feet or carve out our corner in the sand box?

256 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:45:24am

re: #251 Charles

Yep, that's what that was. Blocked as soon I saw the username.

One comment in five years?!

257 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:45:27am

re: #245 MandyManners

Here is the problem:

Chrysler has received $4 billion in federal loans and has been operating in bankruptcy protection since April 30.


They are doing what their banker tells them to do.

258 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:45:47am

TARP was approved by congress. Robert Levy is lying.

259 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:59am

Another common thread is get back to the fundamental principals of the constitution, as the CATO guy just intimated. What's wrong with that?

260 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:13am

re: #258 Gus 802

Why no aerial shots? I am curious.

261 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:38am

Where does it show the mass exodus of all these average Americans, the ones that don't know or care about the nutjobs sponsoring this shit, once they've seen all the Hitler and extreme freakout signs? Have they bought a clue yet, or are they happy to stand around like dairy cows at the trough and ignore it? Certainly, such upstanding people wouldn't stay if they knew what kind of people were there.

Oops. Guess not.

262 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:46am

re: #259 Blastforth

What is wrong of constitutional principles?

263 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:01am

re: #253 jcm

My lawn is the height of Seattle conservative esthetic, a lovely shade of brown.

Austin, at last, we've had two days of flooding rains (thanks be to heaven!). Hottest summer anyone can remember, and my freaking lawn grows like a weed, even with only minor watering.

The secret? I foolishly aerated the hell out of it, laid down a ton of compost (no jokes, people, I spread compost on the lawn, and my wisdom on the web) right before the start of Spring, did the same again in the fall. Twice a year, aerate and top-dress with compost, and the damned thing is green as a plastic Christmas wreath. In the height of the drought, I had to mow every 8 to 10 days. Hippies may not know how to run a country, but they know a thing or two about making grass grow.

264 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #256 MandyManners

One comment in five years?!

Pretty amazing, isn't it? He waited all that time to post that one comment.

265 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:07am

re: #260 Chekote

Why no aerial shots? I am curious.

Maybe another news outlet has a chopper up. Not sure what the airspace rules are over there.

266 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:17am

re: #258 Gus 802

TARP was approved by congress. Robert Levy is lying.

TARP was GWB, Stimulus is Obama.

I thought both weren't good ideas.

267 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:24am

re: #238 Blastforth

re: #224 Sharmuta

Its not a proposal, it a philosophy. It can be implemented, as the man says, by voting the current crowd out.

And replace them with who? Republicans who spend like democrats? Republicans who think we should audit the Fed? With republicans who want to bail on Afghanistan? With republicans who don't want to support Israel?

Yeah- "vote the bums out!" sounds all fine and good, but what about the replacement? We might want to make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease.

268 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:34am

re: #252 Chekote

Then if we apply you standard Reid, Gore, Pelosi and others also have lost their prerogative since they all called Bush a liar. Pelosi even said that our CIA lies.

Exactly. Therefore, Wilson is just like Pelosi, Reid, and Gore. He may have an R next to his name and I may agree with a higher percentage of his policies than the others, but other than that, you are correct.

That is the point.

If you have a problem with Pelosi and Ried and Gore, but not Wilson, then that's the difference between you and I.

269 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:22am

re: #261 theheat

People didn't speak out when Bush-Hitler were around. I think people's instict is to avoid confrontations with nutjobs.

270 Classic Conservative  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:42am

You REALLY need someone to spell out the goals of this protest Charles???!!! These people are protesting the absolutely out of control spending, bailout nation America is becoming. Healthcare is a bit player in this. It is much, much bigger. This is about opposing heavy handed and ever-increasing government intervention into our personal lives and the private sector and reminding our duly elected representatives that they have better get their fiscal house in order before we reorder theirs.

271 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:42am

re: #262 Chekote

Nothing, except we've gotten away from them. Lets get back to the kind of goverment that the constitution constructed.

272 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:50am

re: #265 Gus 802

Maybe another news outlet has a chopper up. Not sure what the airspace rules are over there.

Black Helicopters! AIEEE!

/

273 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:53am

re: #259 Blastforth

Another common thread is get back to the fundamental principals of the constitution, as the CATO guy just intimated. What's wrong with that?

I want to know exactly what you mean when you say that. The reason being is some people's ideas of what the intent was are not always accurate.

274 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:06am

re: #266 jcm

TARP was GWB, Stimulus is Obama.

I thought both weren't good ideas.

Yes. Levy alluded that TARP was secretly approved by Washington bureaucrats instead of Congress. Same would apply with the stimulus. I don't think either was a good move but it was the result of a democratic decision.

275 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:29am

re: #262 Chekote

What is wrong of constitutional principles?

Crazy people's interpretations of them.

276 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:37am

Wilson was wrong is shouting and interrupting POTUS. He immediately apologized. Has Reid apologized? Ever!

277 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:38am

re: #269 Chekote

Mine would be to GTF out of there and not look back. But it appears I'm not of the majority opinion.

278 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:41am

re: #272 Salamantis

Black Helicopters! AIEEE!

/

Fear not, Luap Nor's aerial brigade are on the job:

Image: ron-paul-blimp.jpg

279 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:50am

re: #271 Blastforth

Nothing, except we've gotten away from them. Lets get back to the kind of goverment that the constitution constructed.

Elaborate, please.

280 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #263 Guanxi88

Austin, at last, we've had two days of flooding rains (thanks be to heaven!). Hottest summer anyone can remember, and my freaking lawn grows like a weed, even with only minor watering.

The secret? I foolishly aerated the hell out of it, laid down a ton of compost (no jokes, people, I spread compost on the lawn, and my wisdom on the web) right before the start of Spring, did the same again in the fall. Twice a year, aerate and top-dress with compost, and the damned thing is green as a plastic Christmas wreath. In the height of the drought, I had to mow every 8 to 10 days. Hippies may not know how to run a country, but they know a thing or two about making grass grow.

I tore out my front lawn after I bought my house laid in a sprinkler 20 yards of top soil compost mix and 20 yards of sand. Then I used the latest in eco-grass seed low water slow grow. Stuff is a freaking disaster, weeds and crap looks like shit. I'll have to peel the root layer off and start over.

281 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:04am

re: #272 Salamantis

Black Helicopters! AIEEE!

/

Miniature micro-copters with brain implant technology.

/

282 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #204 Gus 802

Would be good to fact check this guy. Wouldn't surprise me if he got a deal from "the government" above market value for his dealership.

There are car dealerships that participated in the clunker thing and were not paid for the 'incentive'.

283 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:16am

I suppose Charles should just let McVeigh wannabes post here too, you can't keep all the crazies out, no?

It would be nice to see some of the low tax rallies try to keep the nirthers and kooks out. At least try to. I don't see much of that.

284 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:21am

re: #270 Classic Conservative

You REALLY need someone to spell out the goals of this protest Charles???!!! These people are protesting the absolutely out of control spending, bailout nation America is becoming. Healthcare is a bit player in this. It is much, much bigger. This is about opposing heavy handed and ever-increasing government intervention into our personal lives and the private sector and reminding our duly elected representatives that they have better get their fiscal house in order before we reorder theirs.

Great- what's the solution?

285 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:27am

Sharmuta

The fiscal course we are on is unsustainable.

286 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:32am

Bounty on her head?

287 Odahi  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:46am

Call them lunatics, some of them are. Birchers, birthers, KKK, Ronulans, Constitution Party, all of the nutters are there. There are also THOUSANDS of concerned, maybe angry people. If you're right, if your principles are the right ones, if you have the answers and direction these good, angry, finally-waking people need, then get out there in front, TELL them what you stand for, and hijack this protest for the RIGHT reasons! Put someone out front who can LEAD, and they will desert the crazies. These people don't want the crazies, they want a responsible, intelligent, principled leadership. Obviously the Republicans don't have it. SOMEBODY STAND UP!

288 fish  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:16am

Any demonstration is going to bring out people that are extreme. If I beleive in something strongly enough to protest; should I give up and just stay home because there are likely to be people there that agree with some of the things I do but want to twist things to another agenda?

If 10 people are in a room and one of them is a Bircher or a YEC or a (whatever) does that mean everyone in the room agrees with that veiwpoint?

I think we have to look at the extermists like the Drunken Uncle, You know he is going to show up but you dont have to talk to him.

289 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:17am

re: #282 debutaunt

There are car dealerships that participated in the clunker thing and were not paid for the 'incentive'.

Right. But in his case it was that dealership sell off or swap. Don't know what happened with that really.

290 little boomer  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:25am

April 19th is also Patriot's Day in Massachusetts-The battle of Lexington and Concord.

291 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:26am

re: #149 Sharmuta

We all understand that. That's not the problem. The problem is- what proposals to stop this spending are these protests promoting?

No. I don't think we're getting that far. We just establish a link between the individual protesters and the extremist groups that support the protest, then dismiss all of their ideas and goals as extremist.

292 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:53:19am

re: #267 Sharmuta

Well, if the current crowd will listen and change direction, I give them a chance. Do you think Polosi will listen to this and change her ways?

293 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:53:48am

re: #280 jcm

I tore out my front lawn after I bought my house laid in a sprinkler 20 yards of top soil compost mix and 20 yards of sand. Then I used the latest in eco-grass seed low water slow grow. Stuff is a freaking disaster, weeds and crap looks like shit. I'll have to peel the root layer off and start over.

Eh, just try putting in plugs, like a bald man trying to ignore reality. Ripping it all up is too spendy, too much work. Other tip? I see you put down sand. Core aerate, and spread a mix of compost and greensand. May take a couple of years, but, by Jove, it'll work.

(learned all this from my stoned-out Hippy neighbor, whose got a Ph.D. in agronomy, an MA in forest management. Guy is a genius with lawns (and other types of grass). All organic, too.

294 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:54:24am

There's a picture of Obama as Satan.

295 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #285 Chekote

Sharmuta

The fiscal course we are on is unsustainable.

I know that. That's why I keep talking about returning to the proposed Balanced Budget Amendment. Make Congress keep their spending in check. But that's not what you're hearing from the GOP, the tea parties- any one.

So you tell me when the tea parties move away from obfuscating the real issue, and actually promote real fiscal solutions. Until then- it's a bunch of hot air.

296 jcm  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:54:51am

re: #293 Guanxi88

Eh, just try putting in plugs, like a bald man trying to ignore reality. Ripping it all up is too spendy, too much work. Other tip? I see you put down sand. Core aerate, and spread a mix of compost and greensand. May take a couple of years, but, by Jove, it'll work.

(learned all this from my stoned-out Hippy neighbor, whose got a Ph.D. in agronomy, an MA in forest management. Guy is a genius with lawns (and other types of grass). All organic, too.

Thanks, I was hoping for a nice lawn but the eco-stuff is just a mess.

297 Reginald Perrin  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:00am

Here is a photo from Bristol Motor Speedway of 160 thousand people packed tight like sardines in the grandstands.

For a frame of reference, the track is .533 miles in circumference, measured from the inside of the racing surface Measured at outside perimeter of the stadium it is in excess of .85 miles.

If the estimates of 1 million Marchers is true, there are the equivalent of 7 BMS crowds marching on the streets of DC.

I seriously doubt the crowd is even the equivalent of what I see in this picture, never mind 7 times that.

298 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:27am

re: #294 Charles

There's a picture of Obama as Satan.

High school yearbooks can be so embarrassing (i kid, I kid.).

299 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:36am

I'm gonna' go stimulate the economy. Have a great day, Lizards.

300 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:54am

re: #292 Blastforth

Well, if the current crowd will listen and change direction, I give them a chance. Do you think Polosi will listen to this and change her ways?

My interpretation of this comment is you got nothing.

301 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:02am

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay,

302 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:05am

Jenny Beth Martin, who just introduced this idiot speaker, is a Paulian.

303 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:12am

re: #181 eclectic infidel

I supported ousting Saddam. But I'm with you. There's something unsavory about contractors doing the work our armed forces ought to be doing--it has a sort of evil SciFi taint to it. :) And these protesters are always screaming about their rights being infringed. I wonder how they feel about the militarization of our domestic police forces and the war on drugs.

304 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:26am

re: #297 Reginald Perrin

Oh no, an engineer... LOL.

305 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:46am

re: #294 Charles

There's a picture of Obama as Satan.

"Thank God for Glenn Beck " from the crowd.

306 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:48am

Does anyone here actually think that the Fed will be abolished and we will return to the gold standard? I don't. I think most people though would like to see some accountability from the Fed. Besides, I am not impressed with Bernanke's tenure. I find him very political. I mean he basically endorsed that pork laden stimulus. The Fed chair needs to stay out of politics.

307 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:49am

re: #301 MJ

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay,

Should be on every investor's bookshelf, and on the corner of every political leader's desk.

308 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:57:17am

re: #305 avanti

"Thank God for Glenn Beck " from the crowd.

Why does every disaster always get chalked up to "An Act of G-d"?

309 JHW  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:57:52am

re: #244 jcm

Interesting nic, remembrance for the departed... and a certain date; April 19?

A google search brings up a lot of hits on that nic. Here's a recent one at military dot com forums, user was banned and mentioned this rally. I took the macv in the nic to mean a reference to this and from the googleing I think that's what it is. Dunno about the 19 stuff.

310 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:57:57am

re: #285 Chekote

Sharmuta

The fiscal course we are on is unsustainable.

That's nice.

What would be even nicer would be, you know, some actual platform or policies for effecting some sort of change.

Somehow, carrying around "Bush == Hitler!!" signs doesn't seem like much of a strategy.

311 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:57:57am

re: #308 Guanxi88
The insurance policy doesn't have to cover it?

312 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:35am

Steven Baldwin?

Oh boy.

313 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:45am

re: #306 Chekote


I mean he basically endorsed that pork laden stimulus. The Fed chair needs to stay out of politics.

Every country with a functioning government on planet earth enacted a similar stimulus plan. The US is not immune from the reality of economics.

314 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:50am

re: #311 jaunte

The insurance policy doesn't have to cover it?

Wait a minute - does this mean that when Beck finally implodes, insurers won't cover the collateral damage, like those tricksy flood policies?

315 jvic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:57am

The kook vote can make the difference between winning an election and losing it. Ditto for the single-issue vote. IMO both major parties know that.

Unfortunately, the people who can deliver the kook vote are not (harmless) kooks. IMO they fully understand that the economic/geopolitical mess presents them with a once-in-decades opportunity.

316 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:15am

re: #279 Sharmuta

Limiting govenment means, for starters, not expanding goverment into areas it has not heretofore been involved. Is that a difficult concept to understand?

317 Erik The Red  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:46am

Afternoon Lizards. I have been away from college football for a long time. Can someone please explain how they can have the Gators play these non rated teams? Their first two games have been total blow outs.

318 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:47am

Oh please no.

Not conservative hip-hop.

"Are they any right wing extremists in the house today?"

BIG cheer from the crowd.

319 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:49am

re: #306 Chekote

Does anyone here actually think that the Fed will be abolished and we will return to the gold standard? I don't. I think most people though would like to see some accountability from the Fed. Besides, I am not impressed with Bernanke's tenure. I find him very political. I mean he basically endorsed that pork laden stimulus. The Fed chair needs to stay out of politics.

How does this restrict Congressional over-spending? Seriously- I'd love to know.

320 JHW  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:14am

re: #309 JHW

Oops, Militarydotcom forums, banned user mentions rally.Link

321 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:18am

re: #318 Charles

Ha!

322 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:19am

re: #318 Charles

Oh please no.

Not conservative hip-hop.

"Are they any right wing extremists int he house today?"

BIG cheer from the crowd.

Irony

323 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:25am

re: #316 Blastforth

Limiting govenment means, for starters, not expanding goverment into areas it has not heretofore been involved. Is that a difficult concept to understand?

No- it's not. Please tell me how you would restrict government growth.

324 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:49am

re: #318 Charles

That was Steele's idea awhile back. Maybe they stole it from him. You know, because it was such a good one.

325 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:15am

re: #295 Sharmuta

The tea party I went to in April in Dallas was more anti-GOP than anti-Obama. I stopped going to their events because I don't care for the Paulians hanging around. What is it about grassroots politics that attracts the conspiracy loonies? You got the Truthers, Birthers, Nirthers. Here in Texas the GOP was infested with the North America Union crowd. Is there a sane grassroots movement I can join?!?!!?

326 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:55am

re: #291 NukeAtomrod

No. I don't think we're getting that far. We just establish a link between the individual protesters and the extremist groups that support the protest, then dismiss all of their ideas and goals as extremist.

No- we've established that these people have no proposals to actually stop Congressional over-spending.

327 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:02:26am

re: #325 Chekote

Is there a sane grassroots movement I can join?!?!!?

Your local garden club. But even then it can get pretty political.

328 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:02:32am

re: #310 SixDegrees

We should stop all comparisons to Hitler. Maybe if more people spoke out we might be able to achieve this.

329 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:03am

re: #326 Sharmuta

No- we've established that these people have no proposals to actually stop Congressional over-spending.

Jeez, could you imagine the catastrophe should these folk, or the left-ward counterparts, should ever come to power?

Oh, wait...

330 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:12am

re: #325 Chekote

The tea party I went to in April in Dallas was more anti-GOP than anti-Obama. I stopped going to their events because I don't care for the Paulians hanging around. What is it about grassroots politics that attracts the conspiracy loonies? You got the Truthers, Birthers, Nirthers. Here in Texas the GOP was infested with the North America Union crowd. Is there a sane grassroots movement I can join?!?!!?

The serious hobbyists and enthusiasts almost always get there first.

331 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:29am

Nirth Certifikit rap!

332 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:38am

re: #316 Blastforth

Limiting govenment means, for starters, not expanding goverment into areas it has not heretofore been involved. Is that a difficult concept to understand?

The largest expansion of the powers of government occurred under Abraham Lincoln and FDR...both in order to fight wars. Would you argue those were unnecessary?
Many argue that Bush tried to expand the role of the Federal government and Cheney today argues that it is necessary to fight terrorism.
Where you out there arguing that Bush and Cheney were wrong?

333 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:04:11am

Good grief. These guys are pathetic.

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Nirth Certifikit rap!

Un-freaking-believable.

334 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:04:39am

re: #318 Charles

"Are they any right wing extremists in the house today?"

'It's 'hiz-ouse,' foo.'

335 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:03am

re: #306 Chekote

Does anyone here actually think that the Fed will be abolished and we will return to the gold standard? I don't. I think most people though would like to see some accountability from the Fed. Besides, I am not impressed with Bernanke's tenure. I find him very political. I mean he basically endorsed that pork laden stimulus. The Fed chair needs to stay out of politics.

Currently, the Fed is required by law to provide monthly, quarterly and annual briefings to Congress detailing it's policies, internal operations and outlook on the economy, backed up by extensive documentation. The quarterly reports also feature multi-day public hearings. In addition, Congress may call on the Fed to provide further testimony and information upon request when it feels such information is warranted.

Also, every Federal Reserve bank is audited by independent auditing firms annually, as required by law.

Exactly what sort of accountability is it you want to see from the Fed in addition to all of this?

Or did you just swallow what that idiot mouth breather, Paul, shoved down your throat?

336 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:41am

re: #331 Killgore Trout

Nirth Certifikit rap!

Just heard this guy talk at CPAC on a video. He said about Obama "you thought Bush was bad" and that Obama "wants to take away your guns so only the cops and the military have the guns."

That about says it all.

337 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:51am

re: #328 Chekote

We should stop all comparisons to Hitler. Maybe if more people spoke out we might be able to achieve this.

How about the guy with the microphone at the rally right now? That would be change I can believe in.

338 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:51am

re: #323 Sharmuta

The goverment should not get into the health insurance business, it should not be in the car business. It should not be in the mortgage loan business. Just a few examples.

339 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:56am

Sharmuta

Balance budget amendment. I thought it would restrict spending. It doesn't. The pols will just borrow the money.

Reducing taxes and starve the beast approach. I was for this but it doesn't work. The pols are just going to borrow.

I am to the point that they only thing that will stop the pols is basically China and other countries saying we are not going to buy any more treasuries.

340 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:42am

re: #338 Blastforth

Weak.

341 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:07:14am

re: #328 Chekote

We should stop all comparisons to Hitler. Maybe if more people spoke out we might be able to achieve this.

So far, that's the only thing approaching a solution that appears to be present at the Tea Parties. I've yet to see a single credible proposal to rein in spending, balance the budget or reduce the size of government out of the lot of them.

342 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:07:29am
343 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:07:51am

re: #339 Chekote

Sharmuta

Balance budget amendment. I thought it would restrict spending. It doesn't. The pols will just borrow the money.

Reducing taxes and starve the beast approach. I was for this but it doesn't work. The pols are just going to borrow.

I am to the point that they only thing that will stop the pols is basically China and other countries saying we are not going to buy any more treasuries.

Reducing taxes doesn't stop them from deficit spending. What would stop deficit spending is forcing them to balance the budget.

If you want to restrict government power, restrict their purse strings.

344 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:08:06am

re: #330 jaunte

The serious hobbyists and enthusiasts almost always get there first.

The professional rabble rousers (community organizers) on both fringe wings - those with prefab extremist agendas - have perpetual feelers out for coalescing causes, so they can run to join them and co-opt them on the ground floor. Most of them go nowhere; sometimes, however, these operatives hit the jackpot.

How do ordinary citizens concerned about an issue avoid this sort of thing? Lists of people whom they won't admit? Lists of unacceptable associations?

345 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:08:11am

Assholes incoming!

346 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:08:21am

re: #306 Chekote

The problem with the Fed is not that we have a central bank. It's that it's mandated to fight inflation and to achieve full employment. Both goals are diametrically opposed to each other. No other central bank in the world is mandated to deal with employment. They can deal with it through fiscal policy. Conservatives in the U.S. have only "cut spending" and "cut taxes" in their utopian quiver--which isn't sufficient enough to actually fiscally govern the country, IMHO.

347 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:02am

In my list of loonies I forgot to mention people living in fear that the government is going to take their guns away.

348 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #332 MJ

I've always argued that Bush expanded goverrment way too too much. Does the fact he did not control spending and goverment growth make it OK today?

349 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:10:20am

re: #344 Salamantis

I don't see a solution to that fundamental mechanism (which operates in all areas of interest) other than to become a serious enthusiast too, and to personally vet everyone you invite to join.

350 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #334 BigPapa

'It's 'hiz-ouse,' foo.'

Come on Mr. Slave, lets get back to our flippity, floppity, floop.

351 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:11:02am

re: #350 Locker

Come on Mr. Slave, lets get back to our flippity, floppity, floop.

Ding for the South Park.

352 Classic Conservative  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:11:48am

It is obvious that there are a lot of crazy people at this event, but I have a feeling the vast majority (including my parents) are there for the right reasons. Popular politics is always messy and hyperbolic. However, as the movement matures there will definitely be a sorting out of the nutters from the well-intentioned. Especially once the would-be leaders identify which approach has mass appeal and wins converts to the cause of limiting the reach of government. This event will be the catalyst for many more organized and focused events now that conservatives have discovered they can mobilize in relatively large numbers and get a message out. The message may be muddled by idiots at the moment but the numbers to counter the Progressives are clearly there.

353 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:12:00am

re: #349 jaunte

I don't see a solution to that fundamental mechanism (which operates in all areas of interest) other than to become a serious enthusiast too, and to personally vet everyone you invite to join.

A strong, simple message is harder to subvert. The tea parties are too vague, therefore any message goes.

354 MJ  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:12:00am

re: #348 Blastforth

I've always argued that Bush expanded goverrment way too too much. Does the fact he did not control spending and goverment growth make it OK today?

I just didn't notice much opposition from the Right to the Bush and Cheney expansion of the power of the federal government.

355 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:12:01am

All of the speakers are angry.

I don't know how much of this I can stand hearing.

356 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:13:06am

re: #355 Gus 802

All of the speakers are angry.

I don't know how much of this I can stand hearing.

Well, you'd better get used to it. I'm amazed that the raging crazy of the last 8 or so years hasn't hardened me (hehehe!) against this kind of stuff, but it still amazes and sickens me every time I see it.

357 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:14:19am

re: #351 Guanxi88

Ding for the South Park.

yes but can you pull the episode without googling? Here's a hint:

You... came into my life... came into my life

358 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:14:31am

re: #352 Classic Conservative

If my parents were at the event and didn't notice all the nutters, and decided to hang out anyway, I'd be very concerned. Like, maybe they were off their meds.

359 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:15:23am

re: #353 Sharmuta

So far I think the only common message is "Hulk angry."

360 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:16:19am

re: #323 Sharmuta

No- it's not. Please tell me how you would restrict government growth.

Oooh! I've got one. 20% total tax limit. 20% of your income and no more. Amend the constitution to make running a budget deficit an impeachable offense. Thus making a balanced budget law. Government then would have to live within its means, instead of lecturing us to do so.

361 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:16:39am
362 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:08am

re: #352 Classic Conservative

It is obvious that there are a lot of crazy people at this event, but I have a feeling the vast majority (including my parents) are there for the right reasons. Popular politics is always messy and hyperbolic. However, as the movement matures there will definitely be a sorting out of the nutters from the well-intentioned. Especially once the would-be leaders identify which approach has mass appeal and wins converts to the cause of limiting the reach of government. This event will be the catalyst for many more organized and focused events now that conservatives have discovered they can mobilize in relatively large numbers and get a message out. The message may be muddled by idiots at the moment but the numbers to counter the Progressives are clearly there.

I can't say I disagree with you here, even though I am one of those Progressives. Not speaking about this event in particular but it's hard to stop people from showing up to public events. In another South Park episode the KKK decided to join the "pro-black" side of an argument because they knew folks would just vote against whatever side they were on.

I would find it hard to attend an event that was "sponsored" by an organization that was suspect (which may be the case today) but if it's a general kind of thing and whack jobs show up, what can you really but tune em out and try to get the messages that are important to you.

Just thinking out loud, not trying to cause drama.

363 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #346 trendsurfer

Seriously, sometimes I wonder what conservative means anymore. Personally, tax cuts are not on the top of my list. I would like to see a reduction of the federal government in its size and scope. I don't see why we have to have HUD and the few critical functions it performs could be consolidated into another department. Basically, I would like to review every agency. Consolidate. Return power from the fed to the state, local communities, individuals. Kinda like what Cameron is advocating in the UK.

364 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:48am

re: #361 jms

For every one of those extremists, there were hundreds of ordinary protesters who simply ignored them and concentrated on what they were there for -- to protest the war.

Right- but that still didn't stop LGF from noticing the freaks. Yet when the same scrutiny is applied to these protests, somehow "LGF has changed".

No- it's the same principle, even if you can't wrap your head around it.

365 Classic Conservative  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:26am

#358 theheat -

They were not under the impression their would be birchers there but their presence does not imply support or condone their message. They went with many other well-intentioned people and it is their duty to carry the sane message to whomever will listen or take notice. You have to start somewhere. As Don Rumsfeld said, "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." I'm sure the nutters are quite a turn-off for them, hopefully the core will re-organize as they discover each other and launch cleaner efforts in the future. And no, my parents aren't on meds you douchebag.

366 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #354 MJ

Opposition to Bush's big spending ways didn't get much play because it went against the media narrative (which still goes on today) that Bush was a stalwart conservative ideologue. Many conservatives, like me, opposed "No Child Left Behind" "Medicare Drug Benefit" and "Department of Homeland Security" because those things all vastly increased the size of government. Opposition to those programs were voiced. We lost. Does that mean we are stuck with it forever?

367 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:20:13am

re: #326 Sharmuta

No- we've established that these people have no proposals to actually stop Congressional over-spending.

Have we? At least some of them want to abolish income tax. While it's very unlikely to become law, it would be very effective in stopping spending.

368 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:20:16am

re: #361 jms

LGF has been a consistent voice against extremism. This may not serve your preferences at all times, but it's true.

369 sagehen  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:21:17am

re: #239 theheat

Wilson's ploy paid off with at least $200k of donations that came in following his outburst. He swung for the fence and ingratiated himself to the Red Meat Brigade. There was nothing accidental about it.


And his opponent got about four times as much.

The left has also noticed that the last time Wilson found himself in the news was shortly after Strom Thurmond's death, when he decried the "slander" that Thurmond had fathered a black child. How dare anybody say such disgusting, obviously untrue things. When the girl (actually a 70-year-old woman, with grandchildren of her own) said Thurmond had been a kind father to her, supported her family, paid for her education, stayed in touch through the decades... and Thurmond's family released a statement that yes, it was all true... then Wilson said okay, it wasn't slander, but it was embarrassing and the woman should have stayed silent so as not to taint the great man's memory.

This is part of why people are thinking Wilson's objections to Obama are really about race.

370 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:21:23am

re: #367 NukeAtomrod

It's not just taxes. It's spending. How are you going to get Congress to quit spending?

371 Classic Conservative  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:22:39am

#362 Locker -

Thanks for the understanding. People here rapidly paint with a broad brush sometimes and it is a turn-off. Life is messy, nothing is ever perfect but I"m sure improvement is on the way.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:22:46am

re: #370 Sharmuta

It's not just taxes. It's spending. How are you going to get Congress to quit spending?

Not going to happen. They have to promise *things* to get the masses to vote for them.

373 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:23:25am

I will say this about Wilson. Tactically it was a brilliant move. The Obama people were hoping for "Obama regains control of the health care agenda". Instead, the headlines have been about health care for illegals. Do the numbers add up and the rest. Again, I don't think it is appropriate to interrupt POTUS. And I am glad that Wilson immediately apologized and didn't follow Rush's idiotic advice. I am just speaking tactically.

374 Blastforth  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #370 Sharmuta

One way stop excesive goverment spending io do it is make the dollar worthless, like they trying to do now.

375 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:24:49am

Sharmuta

The only way to stop speding is for the Chinese to say "NO MORE BONDS".

376 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:24:53am

re: #372 ggt

We can't expect Congress to not spend at all. How do we keep it in check, though? There should be reasonable spending, but how do we manage to get Congress to stay within reason?

377 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:25:09am

re: #370 Sharmuta

It's not just taxes. It's spending. How are you going to get Congress to quit spending?

If they can't collect taxes, there's a limit to the amount they can spend before either the system collapses or they get voted out in favor of responsible congressmen.

378 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:26:48am

re: #374 Blastforth

re: #375 Chekote

Bullshit to both of you. Congress would still spend. How do you restrict Congressional spending?

I've already said how, but I'm starting to suspect neither of you wants to concede the point because you'd have to concede the point to me.

379 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:01am

re: #376 Sharmuta

We can't expect Congress to not spend at all. How do we keep it in check, though? There should be reasonable spending, but how do we manage to get Congress to stay within reason?

Stop the voters from asking for *things*?

380 theheat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:06am

re: #365 Classic Conservative

It isn't as if this has taken "the core" by surprise. Knowing this, "the core" is still shoulder to shoulder with nuts, listening to nuts, giving face time to nuts. And while I didn't mean to say I'd think your parents (but mine) were off their meds if they attended such a thing without abandoning the freak show, I suppose it could apply to yours as well.

You quote one of the dumbest things ever to come out of Rummy's mouth, color your happily oblivious parents as patriots, and call me a douchebag. Man, that's rich. I think I hear the irony meter buzzing.

And, with that, I'm off to lunch. But if I see any Birchers, Truthers, or Nazi sign carriers, I'm outta there...

381 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:13am

re: #377 NukeAtomrod

If they can't collect taxes, there's a limit to the amount they can spend before either the system collapses or they get voted out in favor of responsible congressmen.

Which they wouldn't do, so good luck getting your tax cut.

382 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:53am

re: #371 Classic Conservative

#362 Locker -

Thanks for the understanding. People here rapidly paint with a broad brush sometimes and it is a turn-off. Life is messy, nothing is ever perfect but I"m sure improvement is on the way.

I completely respect this kind of perspective. Everything is messy, nothing ever works perfectly when you first get it up and running, etc, etc. I get into it a lot around here, and the web, with regard to progressive causes all the time. Folks find some problem and throw the whole idea away. We are humans, we jack things up, it's in our nature.

383 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:59am

re: #356 Guanxi88

Well, you'd better get used to it. I'm amazed that the raging crazy of the last 8 or so years hasn't hardened me (hehehe!) against this kind of stuff, but it still amazes and sickens me every time I see it.

Newweek did a article on the crazies in Arkansas, including a poll showing Rush would win 55% of the vote for POTUS and most think he is not a US citizen.

384 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:28:47am

I gotta go

have a great afternoon all!

385 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:29:28am

Pastor on Beck now saying it's the elite Dawinist's going against God that's causing the countries problems.

386 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:29:30am

re: #379 ggt

No, Dear. We pass a balanced budget amendment. Next we would work on reforming other spending mechanisms. Congress needs to join debtors anonymous, and until the people make them, they will carry on with their denial and deflection.

387 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:29:34am

re: #373 Chekote

I will say this about Wilson. Tactically it was a brilliant move. The Obama people were hoping for "Obama regains control of the health care agenda". Instead, the headlines have been about health care for illegals. Do the numbers add up and the rest. Again, I don't think it is appropriate to interrupt POTUS. And I am glad that Wilson immediately apologized and didn't follow Rush's idiotic advice. I am just speaking tactically.

This goes along with what Charles was saying the other day about it being planned. I was surprised to hear that idea and I hadn't considered it but there is definitely something to what you say. There is, however a counter point in that it really did energize the left base, at least for the next 15 minutes. Lots of folks are using the righteous anger thing to their advantage right now.

388 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:31:48am

re: #377 NukeAtomrod

That's the philosophy that pretends to be rational rather than what it actually is--reckless. And that's why under Republican governance we see such huge deficits.

389 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:31:58am

re: #378 Sharmuta

When politician believe that spending less will garner more votes than spending. It will stop. Ultimately, we the people are responsible for what has happened. The vast majority of us don't say anything. Many don't even vote. So the constituencies that are active and do vote get the money. Personally, I wish I had been more vocal about the federal programs under Bush. But I was too preoccupied with the war on terror.

390 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:34:09am

Good lord. The guy on Beck right now is completely nuts.

391 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:35:27am

Man, I was watching the spy, saw some dinging, had this comment ready to post, but had to go deal with some customers. Now it's too late:

"brucearmstrong1" hasn't even made one comment, and yet he makes my flouncy-sense tingle.
392 sagehen  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:37:24am

re: #338 Blastforth

The goverment should not get into the health insurance business, it should not be in the car business. It should not be in the mortgage loan business. Just a few examples.


So you would dismantle medicare and Tricare, you don't like VA loans, and it would have been okay by you if Ford, Chrysler and GM had all gone under six months ago?

393 Chekote  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:38:23am

re: #387 Locker

I think that the Wilson attack was planned. Well, I suspect that anyway. The purpose of the speech was for Obama to regain control of the debate. Wilson shouts "You lie!". Apologizes immediately. As soon the apology is done. Boehner moves in and talks about how there is no mechanism to verfiy legal status. Obama is still looking for ways to regain control. But he has already shot his wad (i.e. the grandeur of the joint session of Congress) and can't ask for a do over. The GOP doesn't have the numbers to stop anything. All they have left is guerilla tactics.

394 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:38:34am

re: #389 Chekote

It's not even about spending less, per se- they could increase spending yearly and keep the growth equal to the inflation rate.

But perhaps if there were some serious thought on the matter, we could get somewhere. Buying into the deflections of "it's the Fed!" or spouting platitudes isn't going to solve this issue of Congressional fiscal irresponsibility. We need real proposals.

395 lurking faith  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #309 JHW

A google search brings up a lot of hits on that nic. Here's a recent one at military dot com forums, user was banned and mentioned this rally. I took the macv in the nic to mean a reference to this and from the googleing I think that's what it is. Dunno about the 19 stuff.

While I think Charles' take on the nic is correct (why else the tm portion?), IF you are correct about the MACV then the 19 could refer to the average age of soldiers in Vietnam, which as I recall was widely quoted as 19. There was even a pop song about it in the 1980s.

396 BlackFedora  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:42:54am

Ugh...

I am getting so sick of all this crazy rhetoric about the Federal Reserve. If I hear one more person say, "The Federal Reserve is as Federal as Federal Express" then I am going to seriously consider crying.

397 lurking faith  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:43:35am

re: #390 Charles

Good lord. The guy on Beck right now is completely nuts.

You mean Beck? We knew that.

398 JHW  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:45:20am

re: #395 lurking faith

Yep, it's kind of cryptic, the posting on the military forum lead me to that conclusion.

399 jvic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:49:03am

re: #152 trendsurfer

As Bruce Bartlett has said the outrage is misplaced. Where was this anger when the GOP was spending like drunken sailors? These people are protesting an invisible boogieman.

re: #389 Chekote

...Personally, I wish I had been more vocal about the federal programs under Bush. But I was too preoccupied with the war on terror.

Bartlett deserves credit: he spoke out against the Bush fiscal policies and it cost him his job at a think tank. I'd like to know what behind-the-scenes intimidation was used to keep the sane conservative commentariat quiet during the Bush years. It doesn't have to be anything as blatant as a firing. Suddenly your invitations to give speeches, write columns, serve on panels, etc dry up. Poof! There go your honorarium income and visibility...

Obama may well turn out to be worse than Bush, but Obama would not have been possible without Bush.

400 Classic Conservative  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:49:46am

#380 theheat -

My "happily oblivious parents" are from NY and travelled to DC by bus with many other well-intentioned folks. It is kinda hard to leave at the first signs of some nutters, and why should they be deterred by such a thing when so many other reasonable people are around? In fact, they should for sure stay and deliver the sane message and not be drowned out by thugs with all the other sane people. It has to start somewhere and so it has. Stop insulting my parents, you are a real fucking idiot and I'm done with you. You might think what Rummy said was dumb, but it was obvious and true and definitely applies in this situation.

401 Lee Coller  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:50:01am

Negative 1 comments? How did that happen?

brucearmstrong1

This user is blocked.

Registered since: Apr 26, 2009 at 7:38 pm
No. of comments posted: -1
No. of links posted: 0

402 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:54:46am

(sticking my near-white hair into the room)

The Birchers are dinosaur anuses.

I was going to use "mastodon", but realized it's too close to an elephant, which they metaphorically ain't.

/leaving

403 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:56:38am

re: #401 Lee Coller

Negative 1 comments? How did that happen?

Charles now has a subrountine which subtracts downdings. Not certain exactly how it works, but we can now see the total number of comments AND the final karma.

404 KipAllen  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 12:51:14pm

You mean both of them turned up?

405 harpsicon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 1:08:41pm

re: #346 trendsurfer

The problem with the Fed is not that we have a central bank. It's that it's mandated to fight inflation and to achieve full employment. Both goals are diametrically opposed to each other. No other central bank in the world is mandated to deal with employment. They can deal with it through fiscal policy. Conservatives in the U.S. have only "cut spending" and "cut taxes" in their utopian quiver--which isn't sufficient enough to actually fiscally govern the country, IMHO.

In 1981 Volcker stopped inflation, which took political courage because it caused a temporary spike in unemployment. But the spike was only temporary, and once inflation went away (which seemed like an impossible dream) the stage was set for a prosperity which basically lasted until the tech bust in 2000.

There's no inherent contradiction in what the Fed tries to do. But it's difficult to fight inflation when the govt is spending so much money that the Fed has to buy up Treasuries.

Fisher, the president of the Dallas Fed, said last November that we would not monetize the Medicare/Medicaid debt. He's now reduced to writing a piece for the WSJ (last month) begging us not to monetize said debt.

That's what's scary to me.

If Obama were trying to follow Lenin's rule of crushing the middle classes between the grindstones of inflation and taxes, how would he go about it any differently, in the here and now??

406 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #404 KipAllen

When last seen at LGF, you were echoing the words of Malcolm X, supporting a Birther who called for a violent revolution.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I don't know why you'd be trying to laugh off the participation of the John Birch Society -- seems like you're right in line with their views.

407 Annar  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 1:18:53pm

re: #55 Salamantis

I think they are marchuing because they are genuinely concerned with the level of deficit spending and government takeover of private enterprise, and the fringe extremists are running to the front of the line so they can claim it as their own.

An old tactic used by the left and right extremists. In the 1970-80s manifestations were a big deal in Montréal and no matter what the cause it didn't take long for the signs and red flags of the PCML (Parti Communist du Canada Marxist-Leninist) and other fringe communist groups to try to do a visual and audible takeover.

408 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 1:57:21pm

re: #405 harpsicon

If Obama were trying to follow Lenin's rule of crushing the middle classes between the grindstones of inflation and taxes, how would he go about it any differently, in the here and now??

The middle class has been squeezed by lack of regulation of Wall Street and its regulators that look the other way for philosophical reasons. You need only read Bartlett's article to see which Party got that ball rolling.

409 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 4:22:51pm
410 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 7:27:09pm

Bye now!

411 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 8:39:50pm

re: #388 trendsurfer

That's the philosophy that pretends to be rational rather than what it actually is--reckless. And that's why under Republican governance we see such huge deficits.

Which explains why Obama is projecting a 9 Trillion dollar deficit? 18 times higher than Bush's record $500 billion. Bush spent way too much, Obama's idea of Change it multiplying his irresponsible spending by 18.

Damn. I guess we're all fucking doomed.

412 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 9:32:55pm

re: #411 NukeAtomrod

In January, the Congressional Budget Office projected a deficit this year of $1.2 trillion before Obama took office, with no estimate for actions he might take. To a large extent, the CBO’s estimate simply represented the $482 billion deficit projected by the Bush administration in last summer’s budget review, plus the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, which George W. Bush rammed through Congress in September over strenuous conservative objections. Thus the vast bulk of this year’s currently estimated $1.8 trillion deficit was determined by Bush’s policies, not Obama’s. LINK

Your 9 trillion figure is the most laughable. Are you including the nearly 4 trillion the Bush appointed Fed spent on the worthless trashbag of assets?

MSNBC Video
413 NukeAtomrod  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:22pm

re: #412 trendsurfer

Seriously, don't be an idiot. Obama said so himself.

Obama to raise 10-year deficit to $9 trillion

It's ridiculous to blame Bush for deficits that occurred after he left office. Obama could have undone any appointments, etc. the moment he was sworn in. But Obama had no interest in cutting spending, his first priority was to spend another $787 billion on the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.


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