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1 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:18:27pm

and not one more...

2 Coracle  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:54pm

re: #1 noshariaincanada

and not one more...

I'd give it an error of at least +/-1.

But no more quibbling for me. I'm going to bed.

3 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:19:55pm
(Nowhere near the 2,000,000+ being claimed at some right wing blogs.)

Fact checking. Gets them every time.

4 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:20:46pm

Here's the link to ABC:

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

5 BignJames  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:21:05pm

The buses some local radio station was sending weren't filling...so they resorted to giving away tickets.

6 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:21:27pm

we're talking orders of magnitude in estimation error here...and some people have a vested interest in inflating the numbers, of course, while others would prefer to see them understated.

7 arethusa  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:21:34pm

I found this "map" for estimating crowds on the Mall at the WPost from the inauguration. I haven't seen any aerial photos of the mall itself today, but it seems 60000-70000 would just about surround the Capitol, with some breathing room. How far did the crowds go?

8 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:22:34pm

re: #7 arethusa

I found this "map" for estimating crowds on the Mall at the WPost from the inauguration. I haven't seen any aerial photos of the mall itself today, but it seems 60000-70000 would just about surround the Capitol, with some breathing room. How far did the crowds go?

In many cases, from the photos, posted, they went *way* too far.

9 cliffster  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:23:18pm
Firing up a sympathetic crowd of 15,000 in Minneapolis, Obama pitched his plan for a government-run health care option and reiterated many of the points he made in a Tuesday speech to a joint session of Congress.

15,000? That's nowhere near 2 million. Tea Party hyperbole kicks Obamaton hyperbole's ass!

10 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:23:31pm

Watch the video in the ABC link. It's well done and has some historical points.

11 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:24:32pm

Facts? We need no facts! We have our faith, and that is enough. And that is not enough for you, then you're a RINO!

/Paulians

12 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:24:48pm

re: #6 noshariaincanada

we're talking orders of magnitude in estimation error here...and some people have a vested interest in inflating the numbers, of course, while others would prefer to see them understated.

The Washington DC Fire Department has a vested interest in underestimating the numbers? Really?

13 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:25:51pm

re: #12 Charles

The Washington DC Fire Department has a vested interest in underestimating the numbers? Really?

Fire department union conspiracy.

//

14 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:26:01pm

I like firemen.. Firemen! The second link is family friendly.

15 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:27:10pm

re: #13 Gus 802

Fire department union conspiracy.

//

They hammered their swords into hose nozzles like the good comrades they are.

16 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:14pm

re: #15 Sharmuta

They hammered their swords into hose nozzles like the good comrades they are.

The water nozzle and the fireman's axe! Surely comparable to the hammer and the sickle!

Communism!

//Glenn Beck

/

17 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:21pm

re: #9 cliffster

15,000? That's nowhere near 2 million. Tea Party hyperbole kicks Obamaton hyperbole's ass!

Teabaggers: What would Alinsky do?

18 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:28:40pm

re: #12 Charles

The Washington DC Fire Department has a vested interest in underestimating the numbers? Really?

Well maybe if the knew the Paulians want to abolish all public services? Then the Fire Department started a coffee klatch to lay out there plan to discredit them by under estimating their crowd numbers.

It could happen!

/s

19 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:29:35pm

Fire trucks are what color?

Red.

What's the color of the flag of the Soviet Union?

Hmmm?

//

20 cliffster  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:03pm

re: #19 Gus 802

Fire trucks are what color?

Red.

What's the color of the flag of the Soviet Union?

Hmmm?

//

Better dead than Red
/ hoping to set the record for most times posting this at LGF

21 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:16pm

re: #12 Charles

The Washington DC Fire Department has a vested interest in underestimating the numbers? Really?

I did not say that. Please re-read what I wrote.

For all I know the Wash, DC FD numbers are accurate. I simply noted some people would like to see higher numbers, others lower.

You appear to agree with the lower numbers as reported by the Fire Dept. I may have been taken-in by some outreageously inflated numbers at a right-wing blog.

This is a process of discovery, and I would actually like to know how many people (approximately) were willing to travel to DC for this event.

22 Simple Voice  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:31:52pm

I can't recall one big rally of this type where the organizers and supporters of the movement were ever honest/correct about the amount of people at the event.

Of course, 70k at a rally in DC should have elicited more converge from the MSM.
(Yeah, I know...that last comment was delusional thinking.)

23 sngnsgt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:27pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Fact checking. Gets them every time.

Don't let something like facts get in the way...

/moonbat

24 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:32:58pm

re: #19 Gus 802

Fire trucks are what color?


Communism!
/I also consider Blue a flavor and Pork is a verb.

25 cliffster  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:12pm

What happened to JustMyView?

26 Grimace  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:34:35pm

The reason any of these "right wing blogs" are claiming that number is because CNN, the Daily Mail, and other media outlets asserted that number. What's going on Charles?

27 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:01pm

re: #21 noshariaincanada

I may have been taken-in by some outreageously inflated numbers at a right-wing blog.

May?

28 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:26pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Communism!
/I also consider Blue a flavor and Pork is a verb.

I consider Blue a verb. Past tense.
/

29 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:42pm

re: #26 Grimace

What's going on Charles?

It's a sekrit plot by George Soros to make the true patriots look bad?

30 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:35:54pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Communism!
/I also consider Blue a flavor and Pork is a verb.

Blue is an ideology my friend. Blue represents the color of the DNC which is a color that is only one right degree turn to red on the color wheel and color that represents Communism! It's only 90 degrees away! Beware!

I'll have more on Monday.

//Glenn Beck

/

31 Simple Voice  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:26pm

re: #26 Grimace

I know I saw a meme, linked by Instapundit, that was pushing the one to two million number, just so the left could call this a failure. I don't think anyone ever took that number serious.

32 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:31pm

re: #23 sngnsgt

Don't let something like facts get in the way...

/moonbat malkin

FIFY

33 cliffster  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:40pm

re: #28 Slumbering Behemoth

I consider Blue a verb. Past tense.
/

Good memories?

34 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:36:51pm

re: #26 Grimace

The reason any of these "right wing blogs" are claiming that number is because CNN, the Daily Mail, and other media outlets asserted that number. What's going on Charles?

Birchers, Paulbots, and troofers a ladling out hefty helpings of bullshit to falsely inflate their numbers.

35 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:37:17pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

may.

And it's not just the "right-wing blogs" that reported huge numbers. You can selectively ignore other sources, but I do not claim to know the numbers. only that there is disagreement as to the actual numbers.

Perhaps as low as 60-70k, perhaps as many as 1-2M.

With technology and multilateral fact-checking the truth should be out in a few days.

36 sngnsgt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:37:46pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Thanks... ;-)

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:10pm

re: #33 cliffster

MANY!

38 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:16pm

re: #26 Grimace

The reason any of these "right wing blogs" are claiming that number is because CNN, the Daily Mail, and other media outlets asserted that number. What's going on Charles?

No- ABC news was misquoted.

39 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:32pm

I got it! From now on, anyone appearing at a protest has to get their hand stamped. That way the guy standing next to the guy doing the stamping can have one of those little hand counters and click it every time a hand gets stamped!

///

40 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:38:50pm

re: #35 noshariaincanada

Did you miss this thread?

41 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:39:51pm

re: #26 Grimace

What's going on Charles?

Not much. Wassup with you?

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:12pm

Now we have people down-dinging this post!

43 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:40:20pm

re: #28 Slumbering Behemoth

I consider Blue a verb. Past tense.
/

You got Blue? You lucky devil...I hope you took her out for dinner and drinks first!

///

44 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:04pm

nnw59 just went on a dinging spree. Buh-bye!

45 jaunte  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:18pm

Accuracy in reporting! Booo!
/

46 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:41:37pm

OT for those that think that numbers do not lie, consider that a number of de-facto bankrupt companies in the US have shares that trade in the stock market as if there is actually something left of the former companies.

GM (whatever the ticker symbol is)

AIG

FNM

FRE

their price ( greater than 0 by a huge amount ) implies that these factually-bankrupt entiies will somehow, miraculously revive.

Then again, maybe it is all smoke and mirrors and huge liquidity creation by the Fed

47 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:09pm

re: #44 Charles

nnw59 just went on a dinging spree. Buh-bye!

A low-post sock, no doubt.

/it's not like we're gonna miss them, I'm sure...

48 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:42:47pm

re: #47 talon_262

A low-post sock, no doubt.

/it's not like we're gonna miss them, I'm sure...

Yep

nnw59

This user is blocked.

Karma: -52
Registered since: Feb 4, 2008 at 8:56 pm

No. of comments posted: 11
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

49 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:28pm

re: #46 noshariaincanada

OT for those that think that numbers do not lie...

Numbers don't lie, people lie.

So, given that you obviously don't believe the fire department quoted with the 60-70k figure, where do you propose they went wrong?

50 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:47pm

I don't know how many were there, I suspect the fire dept is closer to truth than the bloggers. I do know that it was big enough that all of the major news networks covered it with at least one segment, including MSNBC.

51 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:43:52pm

re: #48 Gus 802

Yep

nnw59

This user is blocked.

Karma: -52
Registered since: Feb 4, 2008 at 8:56 pm

No. of comments posted: 11
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

All your trollsocks are belong to us!!

52 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:44:22pm

Matt Welch says crowd was easily in the hundreds of thousands.

His report is an interesting read. He neither flatters nor demonizes the protesters.

53 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:44:22pm

re: #43 talon_262

Not always. I am gracious (and grateful) enough to provide drinks after, though. And I always return the favor, in a manner of speaking.

54 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:04pm

re: #52 lewy14

Matt Welch says crowd was easily in the hundreds of thousands.

If I have to pick who to believe on the size of the crowd, I'll pick the DC Fire Department.

55 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:13pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

All your trollsocks are belong to us!!

You have to be pretty thick to down ding an article.

56 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:18pm

re: #53 Slumbering Behemoth

Not always. I am gracious (and grateful) enough to provide drinks after, though. And I always return the favor, in a manner of speaking.

*cues cheesy 70's porn riff*

;-P

57 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:39pm

re: #52 lewy14

From your link:

Big crowd. Do not believe any description that says "thousands." If there weren't at least a healthy six figures there, I will permanently revoke my head-counting license.

Perhaps we should hold him accountable?

58 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:41pm

re: #42 Charles

Now we have people down-dinging this post!

Some people struggle with reality.

59 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:46:52pm

re: #55 Gus 802

You have to be pretty thick to down ding an article.

He was running down the front page down-dinging every article as fast as he could.

60 cliffster  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:07pm

Night everyone! Have a good second half of your weekend.

61 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:21pm

re: #59 Charles

He was running down the front page down-dinging every article as fast as he could.

Yeah, I was watching that. I was about to say something.

62 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:47:32pm

There are female fire fighters.

Me, I prefer the firemen.

This is OT, right?

63 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:13pm

Admittadly I am not an expert, but I have attended scores of protests in Israel (against the Oslo Accords and the Disengagement from Gaza). From looking at the pictures of the crowd I would think there were 200,000 people there (I base this on the pictures of the crowds at our protests, where the Israeli media, who lean to the left, have given us this number).

I also think that Charles has cherry picked the signs that show the loonies, and I am confused as to why. There are always nuts at these types of rallies, but the majority of the people seem to be normal people who are expressing their viewpoint - some in creative ways!

64 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:18pm

OT=on-topic (in this instance)

65 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:48:45pm

re: #35 noshariaincanada

Perhaps as low as 60-70k, perhaps as many as 1-2M.

Wow. This is like a textbook case of "pseudo-reasonableness."

66 avanti  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:26pm

60,0000-70,000 is a decent sized crowd and more than many predicted.

67 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:49pm

re: #29 freetoken

It's a sekrit plot by George Soros to make the true patriots look bad?

What is it with the "George Soros paid off LGF" prattle out there?

Do these people think?

George already bought his players. They won. He now has what he wants from them.

But no - he has to go find a blog to turn on the true Americans! Yes - he has hatched a diabolical scheme to pay off Charles!

And no doubt he paid to have that "bone through the nose" picture of Obama posted so that Charles could have the pretext to start a mindless and wreckless ban-o-lanche. Reichstag Fire! Reichstag Fire!

68 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:53pm

re: #30 Gus 802

I question the symbolism of yer NWO architecture.

69 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:49:54pm

re: #63 westbankmama

I also think that Charles has cherry picked the signs that show the loonies, and I am confused as to why.

Not cherry-picked at all, sorry.

There are hundreds, maybe thousands more similar pictures out there on sites all over the web that are just as bad or worse.

But go ahead and believe there's no problem, and I'm just cherry-picking, if it makes you feel better.

70 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:50:08pm

re: #56 talon_262

Brown Chicken, Brown Cow.

71 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:02pm

re: #62 ggt


Me, I prefer the firemen.

This is OT, right?

VOOF! I like the two "bookend" firemen, who very conspicuously don't wax.

(Because chest-waxing is a sin that makes the Baby Jesus cry.)

72 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:02pm

re: #67 karmic_inquisitor

What is it with the "George Soros paid off LGF" prattle out there?

Oh NOES! They're on to me.

73 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:05pm

re: #63 westbankmama

Admittadly I am not an expert, but I have attended scores of protests in Israel (against the Oslo Accords and the Disengagement from Gaza). From looking at the pictures of the crowd I would think there were 200,000 people there (I base this on the pictures of the crowds at our protests, where the Israeli media, who lean to the left, have given us this number).

I also think that Charles has cherry picked the signs that show the loonies, and I am confused as to why. There are always nuts at these types of rallies, but the majority of the people seem to be normal people who are expressing their viewpoint - some in creative ways!

careful, he's in a flouncy mood.

74 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:51:15pm

re: #57 freetoken

From your link:

Perhaps we should hold him accountable?

By all means. Take it up with him.

I linked it because his is the first account I read which actually seemed neutral. Every other account seems to want to make the protesters out to be heroes, or villains.

75 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:00pm

re: #73 noshariaincanada

careful, he's in a flouncy mood.

Actually, it seems to be you who's in a pre-flounce mode.

76 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:28pm

re: #54 Charles

If I have to pick who to believe on the size of the crowd, I'll pick the DC Fire Department.

I don't know Charles.

Are you accounting for all of the people who have multiple sock puppets, vote multiple times in on-line polls (Ron Paul!), and have other kinds of Multiple Personality Disorders? If you take that into account I'd say there were at least a billion there. Maybe 2.

77 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:28pm

Last week I posted a spin-off link to the famous book "Innumeracy"... I doubt it did much good, but there is much to be said for challenging any American about "numbers" and mathematics.

So far there have only been two guidelines offered for coming to an understanding of how many people were there: (1) the WaPo article with the images from the Park Service estimation algorithm, and (2) the fire department as quoted by ABC.

Using the WaPo diagrams and the images on youtube, it would appear to me the attendance ~ 150,000. The fire department report says 60-70k. A factor or two.

However, that is much smaller than the factor of 10 that the enthusiasts-for-not-being-tread-upon claim.

78 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:52:45pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

Some people struggle with reality.

And some people are straight up Enemies of Reality.

79 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:54:14pm

re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth

80 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:15pm

re: #63 westbankmama

I also think that Charles has cherry picked the signs that show the loonies, and I am confused as to why. There are always nuts at these types of rallies, but the majority of the people seem to be normal people who are expressing their viewpoint - some in creative ways!

GREAT! I will now discount all the leftist protest reports I've ever seen because they did the same thing.

81 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:19pm

Lately I keep having the urge to own a sock puppet named FlouncyGreenFootball.

82 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:27pm

re: #71 Throbert McGee

VOOF! I like the two "bookend" firemen, who very conspicuously don't wax.

(Because chest-waxing is a sin that makes the Baby Jesus cry.)

WHAT???

83 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:31pm

re: #77 freetoken

Ah shit - It is Washington. What's an order of magnitude between friends?

/

84 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:55:53pm

re: #63 westbankmama

There are about 18 vids from the demonstration today here.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

This guy got through the whole crowd, and shows a lot of signs. See if you can avoid seeing some crazy by watching a few of them. The point is that you can't.

85 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:56:45pm

re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth

"I turn the kitchen faucet on and the shower burns you, yes, I get it...No, I'm not gonna stop, I'm just saying yes, I get that concept."

86 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:57:27pm

Is this a flouncy lizard?

87 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:06pm

Another thing (I only recently started looking at the stalker comments, so forgive me) - This whole "It's kinda liberating" thing that some post as they announced that they flounced.

You know what is liberating? Rationality.

88 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:07pm

re 69 - Charles,

Since I live 6,000 miles away, I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I admit you may have better information.

On the other hand, I know what it is like to be lumped with crazy, fringe groups like Kach, who show up at protests shouting nutty things at protests. The media take pictures of them, and ignore the majority of protestors.

Of your 60,000 protesters, how many do you think are Paulians? (Not being facetious here - genuinely curious)?

89 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:58:42pm

re: #84 Thanos

There are about 18 vids from the demonstration today here.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

This guy got through the whole crowd, and shows a lot of signs. See if you can avoid seeing some crazy by watching a few of them. The point is that you can't.

There's crazy all over the place in those videos. I was looking at some of them a little earlier.

And some of the craziest people weren't in the crowd. They were on the stage, speaking into the microphones.

90 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:36pm

Well - good night.

Early morning tomorrow. I have to stand outside all day so God has plenty of opportunity to hit me with bolts of lightning.

91 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:42pm

re: #88 westbankmama

Of your 60,000 protesters, how many do you think are Paulians? (Not being facetious here - genuinely curious)?

At least five guest speakers, and those that organized the event.

92 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 10:59:46pm

re: #23 sngnsgt

Don't let something like facts get in the way...

/moonbat

Ummm.. it's not the moonbats who are claiming the inflated numbers.

This go-round, it's the wingnuts.

Crazies are crazy, what can you say?

93 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:15pm

re: #86 ggt

Is this a flouncy lizard?

No. Its a lizard making threat displays to scare away the trolls. ;)

94 noshariaincanada  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:17pm

re: #75 Charles

Actually, it seems to be you who's in a pre-flounce mode.

Have a good night, all

95 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:42pm

re: #63 westbankmama


I also think that Charles has cherry picked the signs that show the loonies,...

From my perspective:

Anyone holding a sign that is a replica of the old "Don't Tread On Me" flag... == loon.

Anyone holding a picture of Obama as the joker == racist loon.

Anyone holding a sign that equates taxes = robbery == loon (because such taxes are indeed created by the duly elected representatives whose responsibility is to raise revenue.)

Anyone with grey hair holding a sign that says "No to socialism" == loon (because either they or their friends/family are getting Social Security.)

/Feel free to substitute "hypocrit" for "loon" if that makes you feel better.

96 Noam Sayin'  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:00:52pm

re: #82 ggt

WHAT???

Is this the first time you've met Throbert?

/

97 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:00pm

re: #88 westbankmama

re 69 - Charles,

Since I live 6,000 miles away, I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I admit you may have better information.

On the other hand, I know what it is like to be lumped with crazy, fringe groups like Kach, who show up at protests shouting nutty things at protests. The media take pictures of them, and ignore the majority of protestors.

Of your 60,000 protesters, how many do you think are Paulians? (Not being facetious here - genuinely curious)?

He mentions it but for most of the day we've been contrasting those two examples:

1. A broad based event featuring broad based speakers where some crazies show up.

2. Some fringies sponsor a fringe event featuring fringe speakers then package it to attract a broad base.

It's an interesting conversation to say the least.

98 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:02pm

re: #88 westbankmama

On the other hand, I know what it is like to be lumped with crazy, fringe groups like Kach, who show up at protests shouting nutty things at protests. The media take pictures of them, and ignore the majority of protestors.

All of the pictures I've posted were taken by attendees. None of them come from the media.

Of your 60,000 protesters, how many do you think are Paulians? (Not being facetious here - genuinely curious)?

How could I possibly know the answer to that?

I do know, however, that at least five of the featured speakers were Paulians. Fact. And most of the organizers.

99 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:07pm

re: #86 ggt

Is this a flouncy lizard?

Yes, I think that is a very nice representation! Small, tries to be threatening...

100 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:08pm
101 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:27pm

re: #92 austin_blue

Ummm.. it's not the moonbats who are claiming the inflated numbers.

This go-round, it's the wingnuts.

Crazies are crazy, what can you say?

I say put all in a giant tin labeled "Mixed Nuts".

/Do I have to?

102 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:34pm

Man, the passive aggressive atmosphere is getting a little thick in here.

103 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:01:52pm

re: #77 freetoken
So Welch's estimate is within the range you came up with.

Thanks - really - I was looking for some confirmation that Welch could be right. And I respect quantitative analysis - yours is the most informed comment I've seen on the crowd size.

104 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:02:05pm

re: #99 austin_blue

Yes, I think that is a very nice representation! Small, tries to be threatening...

Well, you and Dark Falcon work it out --I don't know. . . .

105 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:02:30pm

re: #102 Charles

Man, the passive aggressive atmosphere is getting a little thick in here.

Need more smiley faces following insults.

106 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:20pm

re: #103 lewy14

So Welch's estimate is within the range you came up with.

Thanks - really - I was looking for some confirmation that Welch could be right. And I respect quantitative analysis - yours is the most informed comment I've seen on the crowd size.

So you're just going to dismiss the DC Fire Department's estimate out of hand? Even though this is one of the things they do at every DC protest, and they have an enormous amount of experience at estimating crowds?

Oooohkay.

107 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:29pm

re: #102 Charles

Man, the passive aggressive atmosphere is getting a little thick in here.

Well you are expert at handling it from all of those years of putting up with Cog.

108 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:03:30pm
109 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:04:00pm

re: #102 Charles

Man, the passive aggressive atmosphere is getting a little thick in here.

There are some very personal oxen being gored.

110 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:04:50pm

Perhaps this is the true floucey Lizard?

I'm done. I'm tired and I don't want to google anymore.

111 sngnsgt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:21pm

As someone living with Epilepsy, this is encouraging:

Obama adviser speaks about epilepsy locally

WHITESBORO — Amid the national debate on health care, a top White House adviser related his personal story about troubles his family encountered in getting care for a daughter with epilepsy.

David Axelrod, a close adviser to President Barack Obama, was the keynote speaker at a fundraiser for Citizens United for Research in Epilepsy, known as CURE, at Hart's Hill Inn Saturday evening.

www.uticaod.com...

112 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:22pm

re: #109 austin_blue

There are some very personal oxen being gored.

I don't acre whose ox was gored, I just want to cook the steaks from the ox in question.

//

113 BignJames  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:30pm

re: #107 Thanos

Well you are expert at handling it from all of those years of putting up with Cog.

Aaaaiiieee...you said that name.

114 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:49pm

re: #110 ggt

Perhaps this is the true floucey Lizard?

I dunno if it is or not, but that sure is a funny ass picture.

115 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:05:53pm

re: #103 lewy14

So Welch's estimate is within the range you came up with.

No, it isn't.

What I am saying is that the only measures we have so far indicate that the crowd ought to be numbered with "thousands", which is just the exact opposite of what Welch is claiming.

It doesn't make sense to number that crowd in the "hundreds of thousands" unless there were multiple of those "hundreds."

116 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:14pm

re: #89 Charles

There's crazy all over the place in those video. I was looking at some of them a little earlier.

And some of the craziest people weren't in the crowd. They were on the stage, speaking into the microphones.

Yes. That's the thing. Seems like a lot of people didn't even listen to the crazies that spoke today. All they care about is that they are "anti-Obama." It's such a perfect display of Obama Derangement Syndrome pandering.

117 sngnsgt  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:20pm

re: #92 austin_blue

Crazy is as crazy does... /

118 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:35pm

Carry over from the previous thread regarding fiscal responsibility: I have been curious about how well the stimulus package has been working. A few weeks ago I googled Stimulus. I encourage people to do this once or twice a week fro a month or so. You'll learn about China's stimulus plan, India, Indonesia, Russia, Japan, Malaysia, Germany, Australia, etc. Even countries like Ireland and Hong Kong, Which frequently show up on those lists of the most economically free economies, have enacted a stimulus plan. As you read you'll learn that they aren't that different from our own stimulus package. Which countries won't you notice on this list? I see very few results from sub-Saharan Africa which reminds me of this video...

Seriously, if anyone is leading us into being a 3rd world economy it's the libertarians/Paulians/Tea Parties/Republicans.

119 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:43pm

re: #113 BignJames

Aaaaiiieee...you said that name.

Well, he didn't say Nodrog...

120 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:44pm

re: #106 Charles

So you're just going to dismiss the DC Fire Department's estimate out of hand?


It's not them I don't believe, it's my lying eyes. Looking at the crowd photos and the time lapse, sixty thousand just doesn't look right. Apparently not to freetoken or westbankmama either.

Could the DC Fire dept be wrong? Yeah, it could.

But like freetoken said, it's within a factor of two. Not millions, but not "thousands" either.

121 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:06:49pm

re: #110 ggt

Perhaps this is the true floucey Lizard?

I'm done. I'm tired and I don't want to google anymore.

Well, that lizard is keeping bad company. He should know that all unicorns are in the tank for Obama.

/

122 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:07:42pm

I guess I always think of a flouncy lizard like this image below. I tried googling gay prancing lizard but this one was a better result:

[Link:harunyahya.com... ]

123 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:07:47pm

Uh, I'll just point out the many, many times that people were perfectly happy to accept the word of the DC Fire Department, when they contradicted the claims of International ANSWER. I posted quite a few of those cases right here at LGF, in fact.

But suddenly, they're wrong.

124 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:02pm

re: #120 lewy14

Why trust professionals when you can make up your own number?

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:09pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I love that vid.

"I have cholera".

"Whaat"?

126 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:27pm

re 98

I didn't know that the protest was organized by them, and I did not read any reports about how most of the featured speakers were Paulians. Perhaps it is too early...

On the other hand, you cannot argue with the fact that Obama's health care plan has touched a raw nerve in America, and that a lot of people are against it, at least in the form that it is in now.

127 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:09:40pm

re: #123 Charles

Uh, I'll just point out the many, many times that people were perfectly happy to accept the word of the DC Fire Department, when they contradicted the claims of International ANSWER. I posted quite a few of those cases right here at LGF, in fact.

Suddenly, they're wrong.

Interesting since they were pandering to the fire departments during the whole event. They were not only pandering but co-opting the military and 911 during many of the speeches.

128 BignJames  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:10:11pm

re: #120 lewy14

tens of thousands...that ok?

129 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:10:17pm

re: #123 Charles

The Parks Department will issue their estimate in a day or two. They're usually pretty definitive.

130 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:10:22pm

re: #115 freetoken

It doesn't make sense to number that crowd in the "hundreds of thousands" unless there were multiple of those "hundreds."

Welch said "healthy six figures. You said 150K was possible. Words can mean whatever you like, numbers are numbers.

131 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:11:09pm

re: #127 Gus 802

Interesting since they were pandering to the fire departments during the whole event. They were not only pandering but co-opting the military and 911 during many of the speeches.

I'd love to know how many of them had actually served in the military. I'm betting not many.

132 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:11:11pm

re: #125 Slumbering Behemoth

It always cracks me up. I think the vid is actually a couple years old but they updated it with Tea Party stuff.

133 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:11:31pm

re: #129 Killgore Trout

The Parks Department will issue their estimate in a day or two. They're usually pretty definitive.

My own estimate from watching the C-SPAN feed was less than 100K. I'm pretty sure that's where it's going to end up.

134 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:12:54pm
135 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:12:54pm

re: #133 Charles

That's my guess too.

136 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:13:06pm

re: #130 lewy14

Welch said "healthy six figures. You said 150K was possible. Words can mean whatever you like, numbers are numbers.

I could care less if there were 10 million people at 912DC. It would still be 5 million people who are probably living on Medicare and talking out of their keister.

137 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:13:47pm

re: #134 Charles

Traficant cheered at TEA Party.

That alone is worthy of my scorn.

138 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:14:04pm

re: #134 Charles

Traficant cheered at TEA Party.

If that's not proof of the psychotic nature of these people I don't know what is.

139 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:14:20pm

re: #133 Charles

My own estimate from watching the C-SPAN feed was less than 100K. I'm pretty sure that's where it's going to end up.

As you noted above, the FD has no reason to lie. But for a national "Call to Action in DC", 60-70,000 is kind of anemic. No wonder the organizers are trying to bump it up.

140 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:14:54pm

Overnight thread is up--my cue to say:

weet dreams all!

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:15:22pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Pretty much spot on, as well. I can dig some of the stuff that rational libertarians put out there, but I just can't on board 100%.

142 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:15:45pm

re: #126 westbankmama

re 98

I didn't know that the protest was organized by them, and I did not read any reports about how most of the featured speakers were Paulians. Perhaps it is too early...

On the other hand, you cannot argue with the fact that Obama's health care plan has touched a raw nerve in America, and that a lot of people are against it, at least in the form that it is in now.

My perspective is different. 90pct of the drama and hysteria is over things that aren't even real. What I mean is that rhetoric and propaganda have people up in arms because of provably false information. To me that is a lot different that people being angry or having problem with things that are actually in the proposed bills.

143 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:16:13pm

re: #131 austin_blue

I'd love to know how many of them had actually served in the military. I'm betting not many.

Typically that crowd gets deferments. You know like having a cyst on you rear end like that guy that almost went to jail for doctor shopping. Or that other guy they call "The Great One" that got a deferment yet claims to have been "in combat."

144 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:17:05pm

re: #136 Gus 802

It would still be 5 million people who are probably living on Medicare and talking out of their keister.

How many of the people at that protest today:

- Receive Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid?
- Have attended public schools paid for by taxes?
- Drive on public streets, paid for by taxes?

And the list could get very long.

This is the Beck crowd - people projecting emotions without thinking.

The whole "Don't tread on me" is such buffoonery. It mocks those people in the world who are truly being tread upon by tyrants.

145 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:17:28pm

re: #134 Charles

Traficant cheered at TEA Party.

So, they call for honesty while cheering a crook. To borrow from Traficant:

"Beam me up, Mr. Scott. There's no intelligent life at these tea parties."

146 freedomplow  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:03pm

This is how you figure it out if your interested. I was going to try and figure it out but then became disinterested because I thought to myself... What do I care.

Start here and find point a and b on Google Earth 14th and E St NW

Then look at this video (regardless of advertising) and try to determine how many people walked through the street. Use the ruler tool on google earth.

You might get an idea of how many people walked through the street at that point and time. Probably won't get the numbers of all people that attended because others walked from many different areas.

Good luck.

147 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:11pm

re: #1 noshariaincanada

and not one more...

paulian spotted

148 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:18:22pm

re: #144 freetoken

I see. So if you benefit at all from any government service, it is illegitimate to protest the expansion of any other government service?

149 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:03pm

re: #144 freetoken

How many of the people at that protest today:

- Receive Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid?
- Have attended public schools paid for by taxes?
- Drive on public streets, paid for by taxes?

And the list could get very long.

This is the Beck crowd - people projecting emotions without thinking.

The whole "Don't tread on me" is such buffoonery. It mocks those people in the world who are truly being tread upon by tyrants.

Yep.

We should be familiar with Operation Coffee Cup by now.

They're just a bunch of hypocrites.

Nimbyism.

150 freedomplow  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:13pm

re: #42 Charles

Now we have people down-dinging this post!

Why do you have the down ding thing?

151 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:20pm

re: #144 freetoken

How many of the people at that protest today:

- Receive Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid?
- Have attended public schools paid for by taxes?
- Drive on public streets, paid for by taxes?

And the list could get very long.

This is the Beck crowd - people projecting emotions without thinking.

The whole "Don't tread on me" is such buffoonery. It mocks those people in the world who are truly being tread upon by tyrants.

Thank you! Well said. Mencken's great unwashed. Idiots.

152 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:56pm

re: #150 freedomplow

Why do you have the down ding thing?

Is this another pre-flounce comment?

153 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:19:56pm

re: #150 freedomplow

Why do you have the down ding thing?

Tracking.

154 freetoken  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:20:01pm

re: #148 lewy14

It is highly hypocritical to hyperventilate like those protesters.

155 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:21:12pm

re: #148 lewy14

I see. So if you benefit at all from any government service, it is illegitimate to protest the expansion of any other government service?

Not at all but mostly what I hear is that taxes are theft because they may be used for a service of which that person disapproves. This, to me, is a failure to acknowledge the basic operation of Democracy.

156 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:21:13pm

re: #154 freetoken
I see. What would be acceptable?

157 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:22:27pm

Tiime for me to get some sleeps, here's a palate cleanser speech from times quite a bit grimmer than today

158 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:22:58pm

re: #155 Locker

Not at all but mostly what I hear is that taxes are theft because they may be used for a service of which that person disapproves. This, to me, is a failure to acknowledge the basic operation of Democracy.


I hear that too - mostly as a strawman argument from people who don't want to engage the real issue of how much taxes are going to rise.

159 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:23:26pm

re: #156 lewy14

I see. What would be acceptable?

Reject your Medicare. If you go to these protests and receive Medicare your a hypocrite.

It's that simple.

160 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:23:57pm

re 142 Locker,

Well, you may be right about people being afraid of things that may not actually be in the bill. On the other hand, based on the thread here at LGF, (posted on the sidebar, I think) there seems to be more unanswered questions about the bill than concrete information. Add to this the fact that most of the politicians who are being pushed to vote in favor of the bill don't really know what is in it either, you get a situation that makes most people nervous.

161 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:24:15pm

re: #159 Gus 802
OK - so if I get medicare I can no longer legitimately protest or oppose any tax increase at all?

162 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:24:49pm

re: #156 lewy14

I see. What would be acceptable?

Try rational discourse. If you have a good argument, make it.

If your argument sucks, start screaming about foreign born secret muslim commie Manchurian-Candidate Presidents who are out to kill grandma and take all your money and give it to Mexicans for health care.

163 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:25:02pm

re: #161 lewy14

OK - so if I get medicare I can no longer legitimately protest or oppose any tax increase at all?

Yep.

And Social Security.

See Operation Coffee Cup. Ronald Reagan said it was socialism.

164 freedomplow  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:25:46pm

re: #152 Charles

No Charles. I told you before that I stand by you and still do.

Maybe I was getting a little late night snarky.

165 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:26:15pm

re: #158 lewy14

I hear that too - mostly as a strawman argument from people who don't want to engage the real issue of how much taxes are going to rise.

I wouldn't deny at all that I'm one of those people/progressives/whatever who think about cost second to cause. Mostly I feel like if it helps a major issue in a major way then we'll find a way to pay for it. Basically get it going and then shuffle things around.

I know, I know... that's not how a fiscal conservative does things and I do appreciate that SOMEONE is doing it. My personality does not allow for that type of thinking. I'm more of a bull in a china shop but it does get things moving. We need a broad variety to cover all the bases.

166 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:26:38pm

re: #163 Gus 802

I see. Since I get neither, I guess I can still vote against taxes with a clear conscience. Oh but wait I drive on roads. Can I still vote against taxes?

167 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:27:45pm

re: #164 freedomplow

No Charles. I told you before that I stand by you and still do.

Maybe I was getting a little late night snarky.

Ok, thanks for that. Maybe you missed my comment -- that person was going down the front page, dinging everything down as fast as possible. Clearly in a rage. When I see that going on, I'm going to put a stop to it -- that's NOT what the rating system is intended to be used for.

168 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:30:12pm

By the way, 'kansas' is blocked. I went through and read all of his/her comments in that thread, and the stench of racism was overwhelming. I don't want that person around here any more.

Expect to see him/her/it turn up shortly at the stalker blog.

169 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:30:14pm

re: #165 Locker
Thanks for acknowledging somebody has to add up the costs. After all there were some positive comments about "numeracy" here, right?

When our tax revenues won't cover the interest on our debt, then arithmetically, we're screwed. We're not there yet. But that's the threshold to keep your eye on.

Decide who to believe and where to get your information from - which projections to give credence to, etc.

But know this: when that threshold is crossed all the noble intentions in the world will not save one school, heal one sick person, or feed one hungry person.

170 freedomplow  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:30:22pm

re: #167 Charles

I did miss it. Thanks.

171 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:30:29pm

re: #166 lewy14

I see. Since I get neither, I guess I can still vote against taxes with a clear conscience. Oh but wait I drive on roads. Can I still vote against taxes?

Sooner or later you will. If you drive on road chances are most of them have Federal funding attached. Whenever you fly it's subject to billions in Federal funding: FAA, NOAA, etc. NOAA is the same group of people that have been putting out the science on AGW. Pilots rely on weather which isn't really climate, right?

172 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:31:09pm

re: #160 westbankmama

re 142 Locker,

Well, you may be right about people being afraid of things that may not actually be in the bill. On the other hand, based on the thread here at LGF, (posted on the sidebar, I think) there seems to be more unanswered questions about the bill than concrete information. Add to this the fact that most of the politicians who are being pushed to vote in favor of the bill don't really know what is in it either, you get a situation that makes most people nervous.

It's not unreasonable that people want to know every single detail before they will support or accept something. In practice in my own business, however, I know that's just not how it works. Things are going to fluctuate back and forth, converging from several sources before it comes to a final decision.

I think, personally, it's important to just take our best shot at addressing our worse problems which to me are cost and a lot more coverage for a lot more people. If things need improving we improve them but you've got to take some action.

In the military, on my promotion board for E5, part of the training is the following instruction:

If you give an answer you are unsure of and they ask "Are you sure?" you ALWAYS say "Yes, sir!" in a strong and affirmative manner. The lesson being it's better to make a wrong decision than no decision at all.

173 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:32:13pm

re: #42 Charles

Now we have people down-dinging this post!

Sorry about the downding, Charles. I was checking the rating and hit the wrong button.

174 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:32:17pm

re: #168 Charles

By the way, 'kansas' is blocked. I went through and read all of his/her comments in that thread, and the stench of racism was overwhelming. I don't want that person around here any more.

Expect to see him/her/it turn up shortly at the stalker blog.

Thank you, sir. Racism has no place at LGF.

175 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:32:33pm

re: #173 Shiplord Kirel

Sorry about the downding, Charles. I was checking the rating and hit the wrong button.

No problem - you can reverse it, you know.

176 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:32:53pm

re: #171 Gus 802

Sooner or later you will.


I see - since everyone will sooner or later get medicare or social security, then nobody can legitimately vote against taxes! Awesome! Everything is clear now.

177 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:33:40pm

re: #168 Charles

By the way, 'kansas' is blocked. I went through and read all of his/her comments in that thread, and the stench of racism was overwhelming. I don't want that person around here any more.

Expect to see him/her/it turn up shortly at the stalker blog.

I think it was a he. Saw that coming. I hope he has fun at the stalker blog. Seems odd you know but the Latin Kings is a rather leftist organization. There's no way that the Latin Kings would accept Rick Martinez.

178 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:33:49pm

re: #175 Charles

No problem - you can reverse it, you know.

Actually I didn't know that. Cool.

179 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:33:53pm

re: #164 freedomplow

No Charles. I told you before that I stand by you and still do.

Maybe I was getting a little late night snarky.

Very classy man. For serious.

180 Gus  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:34:53pm

re: #176 lewy14

I see - since everyone will sooner or later get medicare or social security, then nobody can legitimately vote against taxes! Awesome! Everything is clear now.

You're not paying attention obviously.

181 little blessing  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:35:47pm

re: #175 Charles
I've made that mistake before. How is it corrected? Do I just push the opposite ding?

182 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:37:48pm

re: #180 Gus 802
I'm following along quite well. I asked when someone might have the political legitimacy to vote against taxes. What I'm getting from you is "never", since the government inevitably pays for something a person might need.

Interesting take. Doesn't seem to provide much in the way of a throttling action for the scope of the state.

183 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:38:15pm

Taxes, taxes, taxes!

What about the flip side of the coin? Why don't we try to deal with spending? I don't know- maybe try to make them balance the budget?

184 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:38:18pm

re: #181 little blessing

I've made that mistake before. How is it corrected? Do I just push the opposite ding?

Yes, just push the other button. First click cancels out your rating. Second click reverses it. Try it and see.

185 jvic  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:38:31pm

re: #95 freetoken

From my perspective:

Anyone holding a sign that is a replica of the old "Don't Tread On Me" flag... == loon.

Strong words, but I won't take issue.

The Gadsden flag has an honorable history that predates the Founding. However, it should be raised against foreign enemies, not against domestic opponents.

A not very nice person noted that a revolution is not a dinner party. Losing a couple of elections is not sufficient reason for people to shriek about revolution. Especially middle-aged people who should know better.

186 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:39:39pm

re: #169 lewy14

Thanks for acknowledging somebody has to add up the costs. After all there were some positive comments about "numeracy" here, right?

When our tax revenues won't cover the interest on our debt, then arithmetically, we're screwed. We're not there yet. But that's the threshold to keep your eye on.

Decide who to believe and where to get your information from - which projections to give credence to, etc.

But know this: when that threshold is crossed all the noble intentions in the world will not save one school, heal one sick person, or feed one hungry person.

Well, I guess my hope is that kind of weight (being close to crossing the threshold) would bring some action before failure. Programs that need to be reduced would be reduced or cut and I don't just mean liberal programs either.

Our country doesn't have a great track record of hitting a nice, steady plan of improvement. We swing way up then crash and adjust, go back up, then crash again followed by another adjustment.

We make our adjustments at the bottom so now is the time to get some new trials going to see what's going to succeed and what's going to wash out after the next crash.

187 jayzee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:42:12pm

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but did anyone check Beck today? I Tivo'd it because I wanted to hear what stupidity he would say as this is his idea according to him. Didn't take long...they were reading off negative comments to him when they read one which essentially said, "9-11 was America's fault for intervening in international events." Beck said that he "has become" more "libertarian" and that the US needs to mind its business...CLICK.

188 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:44:17pm

re 172

I happen to agree with you that more could be done in America to offer cheaper health care to more people. But I think you need to start small, and analyze what you are doing to make sure that it helps rather than hurts. You also need to be able to pay for it. Period.

I live in a country where everyone pays 4.8% of their income, no matter how much or how little, to health coverage. Everyone is covered, including the unemployed. But I live in a country much smaller than America, where our population is relatively young and healthy. The four health plans compete with each other, and I have the choice to change from one to the other every three months. I also have the choice to pay for extra coverage privately. Most doctors work for the plan at a fixed salary, but they have the option, which many take, of charging privately one day a week. We therefore have very good doctors, who give care to everyone, and make a decent living too.

189 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:45:30pm

All of us have some experience with what large crowds look like. Just think of a football game, like the one here in Lubbock tonight that had an attendance of about 45,000 (Texas Tech 55 Rice 10 btw). The crowd at an event like today's protest will spread out over several times the area but it still shouldn't be too hard to guess at least the magnitude of the number.

I got some sharp responses when I mocked Michelle Malkin's claim of 2 million earlier today. I had some rational reasons to do so though. I could at least tell from simple observation and experience that the crowd was nowhere near a couple of million.
If nothing else, keep in mind that DC is not a large city geographically, 61 square miles. Two million extra people, on top of residents, commuters, and tourists, would simply inundate the place. That would be roughly 30,000 per square mile, nearly 500 per acre over the entire area of the city, buildings, restricted areas and all.

190 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:45:39pm

re: #188 westbankmama

Sorry- could you please use the reply or quote function? Makes it easier to follow conversations. Thanks.

191 jayzee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:46:56pm

re: #188 westbankmama

There's a doctor shortage on the horizon in Israel as more and more Israeli doctors leave to make money elsewhere.

192 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:47:21pm

re: #186 Locker
You know for the record I think Ron Paul is kinda nuts. I don't hold to the Austrian school of economics. And I'm totally OK with fiat money and John Maynard Keynes.

The thing is - we're approaching the insolvency threshold fast enough so that people like Paul gain appeal. Because if you listen to what people like Ben Bernanke were saying about the housing crisis two years ago, a year and a half ago... he's the one who sounds like a nut - not Ron Paul!

I shouldn't single out the US, either, it's a worldwide phenomenon.

But the idea that people protesting taxes and spending are all extremists or racists or nutters or have no rights because they get medicare... well... this doesn't bode well.

You expect "some kind of action before failure". What would that look like exactly? And you expect Washington, with its awesome track record, to get it right?

193 BignJames  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:47:56pm

re: #187 jayzee


don't believe Beck does a wkend show.

194 westbankmama  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:48:53pm

Good bye folks, I need to get ready for work...

195 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:49:01pm

re: #188 westbankmama

re 172

I happen to agree with you that more could be done in America to offer cheaper health care to more people. But I think you need to start small, and analyze what you are doing to make sure that it helps rather than hurts. You also need to be able to pay for it. Period.

I live in a country where everyone pays 4.8% of their income, no matter how much or how little, to health coverage. Everyone is covered, including the unemployed. But I live in a country much smaller than America, where our population is relatively young and healthy. The four health plans compete with each other, and I have the choice to change from one to the other every three months. I also have the choice to pay for extra coverage privately. Most doctors work for the plan at a fixed salary, but they have the option, which many take, of charging privately one day a week. We therefore have very good doctors, who give care to everyone, and make a decent living too.

Thank you very much for that insight into your health care system. I had no idea at all and it sure sounds like a well thought out system. It is hard for me as a liberal to imaging people not being covered or having to declare bankruptcy if they get really sick or hurt. I would really, really like to see us, as a nation, care about our own citizens enough to make this happen some how. Hope remains...

196 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:50:23pm

re: #189 Shiplord Kirel

All of us have some experience with what large crowds look like. Just think of a football game, like the one here in Lubbock tonight that had an attendance of about 45,000 (Texas Tech 55 Rice 10 btw). The crowd at an event like today's protest will spread out over several times the area but it still shouldn't be too hard to guess at least the magnitude of the number.

I got some sharp responses when I mocked Michelle Malkin's claim of 2 million earlier today. I had some rational reasons to do so though. I could at least tell from simple observation and experience that the crowd was nowhere near a couple of million.
If nothing else, keep in mind that DC is not a large city geographically, 61 square miles. Two million extra people, on top of residents, commuters, and tourists, would simply inundate the place. That would be roughly 30,000 per square mile, nearly 500 per acre over the entire area of the city, buildings, restricted areas and all.

It's funny you mention this as I was looking at Stadium Pictures today as well from Michigan and Penn State (Happy Valley). 50,000 people is a LOT of freaking people.

197 jayzee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:52:07pm

re: #193 BignJames

don't believe Beck does a wkend show.

Maybe not, but he did today. "The 9/12 Project" please check your Foxnews listing.

198 thefarmer  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:52:36pm

re: #159 Gus 802

Sorry Gus, you are not making any sense. People going into Medicare have paid into it for years. Yes, they can object to stupid plans like Obama has for the future.

To get back OT there was a Tea Party here in our small town of 16,000. I couldn't go, had to work, go figure that's what made America.

My Dad was visiting and he did go, there were about 300-400 there in our rural IL town. Nothing crazy or racist as I've seen accused in the media. Simply people in rural IL who don't like where BO is leading our country. We are very much about self reliance, and helping each other, not govt. handouts here.

T

199 Locker  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:54:03pm

re: #192 lewy14

You know for the record I think Ron Paul is kinda nuts. I don't hold to the Austrian school of economics. And I'm totally OK with fiat money and John Maynard Keynes.

The thing is - we're approaching the insolvency threshold fast enough so that people like Paul gain appeal. Because if you listen to what people like Ben Bernanke were saying about the housing crisis two years ago, a year and a half ago... he's the one who sounds like a nut - not Ron Paul!

I shouldn't single out the US, either, it's a worldwide phenomenon.

But the idea that people protesting taxes and spending are all extremists or racists or nutters or have no rights because they get medicare... well... this doesn't bode well.

You expect "some kind of action before failure". What would that look like exactly? And you expect Washington, with its awesome track record, to get it right?

Oh it's not my opinion that tax protesters are extremists. Then again I'm not fond of arguing with any kind of protester. I like talking about anything at all if it's a respectful discussion about ideas. In fact my best conversation are with conservatives where we try to come to a consensus about the best way to approach a certain problem or issue. We actually try to agree on the "best practice". Ideas are good, dogma bad... in my opinion.

200 Ramona  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:58:53pm

re: #168 Charles

I mostly 'lurk' here. (when I need some sanity to cleanse the brain after browing other blogs & news sites)
What do you mean by 'showing up on the stalker blog'??

201 lewy14  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:59:13pm

re: #199 Locker
Sorry if I implicitly put words in your mouth. Didn't mean to.

If Ron Paul and his crew do any good at all it's to get people to seriously understand the debt, the Fed, the Treasury bond market, etc. Like I said I'm not going to push sources on you but I would encourage you to investigate the fiscal, ah, "situation" for yourself.

202 jayzee  Sat, Sep 12, 2009 11:59:20pm

re: #195 Locker

Thank you very much for that insight into your health care system. I had no idea at all and it sure sounds like a well thought out system. It is hard for me as a liberal to imaging people not being covered or having to declare bankruptcy if they get really sick or hurt. I would really, really like to see us, as a nation, care about our own citizens enough to make this happen some how. Hope remains...

Sorry, not so quick

That's the problem with government run healthcare, even if it works initially it will always break down.

Oh-here's an article referring to the Israeli government report.

203 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:02:02am

re: #200 Ramona

This might help:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

204 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:05:11am

re: #201 lewy14

How is auditing the Fed going to reduce taxes or restrict Congressional spending?

205 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:10:12am

re: #204 Sharmuta
I'm not a great fan of auditing the Fed. And I doubt it will happen - Barney Frank is making noises but I'm sure it will be something of a charade.

But whatever. My point is just that most people don't have much familiarity with the institutions and the numbers. If Ron Paul makes people ask themselves something as basic as "what is the Fed, anyway?" and leads people to investigate threats to the soundness of the dollar, then it's not all bad.

I'm figuring that wider appreciation for the fiscal situation will result in less eagerness for more spending.

206 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:10:20am

re: #202 jayzee

Sorry, not so quick

That's the problem with government run healthcare, even if it works initially it will always break down.

Oh-here's an article referring to the Israeli government report.

Don't you have a problem with "always"? Especially a negative always. My mind can't even contain that concept.

207 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:11:54am

re: #206 Locker

Don't you have a problem with "always"?


The amount of entropy in a system always increases. Fact. Second law of thermodynamics.

208 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:12:06am

re: #205 lewy14

I think the whole auditing the Fed thing is a deflection and distraction from the real problem which is Congress and their spending habits and fiscal mechanisms. That's where the scrutiny should be.

209 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:12:56am

re: #198 thefarmer

Did you all vote? Obama is the POTUS because he won the vote.
These "Tea Parties" are all good signs of revolt, but that is all that they are.

210 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:13:57am

re: #201 lewy14

Sorry if I implicitly put words in your mouth. Didn't mean to.

If Ron Paul and his crew do any good at all it's to get people to seriously understand the debt, the Fed, the Treasury bond market, etc. Like I said I'm not going to push sources on you but I would encourage you to investigate the fiscal, ah, "situation" for yourself.

Oh Ron Paul bugs me a lot less than he bugs a lot of people here. I don't mind picking and choosing my ideas and I had a few years as a Libertarian before their addiction to endless junk mail forced me to independent status.

I'm not even that bothered by truthers. Probably because I don't think it's absolutely impossible that the government could do something like 9/11, I just think the odds are so slight I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it.

I like Ron Paul because he doesn't give a shit what people think. I always have a certain amount of respect for that kind of attitude. It lets him ask questions other people won't ask. Some I think are very unlikely or whacked and others are interesting.

211 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:14:01am

re: #204 Sharmuta

How is auditing the Fed going to reduce taxes or restrict Congressional spending?

I regret only having one UPDING for this!

212 jayzee  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:14:43am

re: #206 Locker

Don't you have a problem with "always"? Especially a negative always. My mind can't even contain that concept.

No. Not at all. Name one thing that doesn't slip at some point. One thing, I bet you can't. Now take that blip and compound it with the ever nimble reaction of a government...

213 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:16:05am

re: #207 lewy14

The amount of entropy in a system always increases. Fact. Second law of thermodynamics.

It's not a fact on the quantum mechanics level. Absolutes trouble me as do pure black and white divisions. It's just a personal thing.

214 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:18:20am

re: #208 Sharmuta

I can see the argument for it [Fed audit] being a "distraction", but the thing about scrutinizing fiscal habits and spending mechanisms is that people in general have very little consciousness about what money is, what makes it sound, what destroys it.

There's this perception out there that, in effect, Cheney and Reagan were right: that deficits don't matter, and the limit on the national credit card is no problem - just print more, spend more.

When people say "we need to stop increasing the deficit", others ask: "or else what? That's where an understanding of the Fed and its relationship to the Treasury comes in.

215 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:18:22am

re: #212 jayzee

No. Not at all. Name one thing that doesn't slip at some point. One thing, I bet you can't. Now take that blip and compound it with the ever nimble reaction of a government...

I agree with that completely. I took your phrase "break down" to mean failure. Of course an unattended system will break down but a dynamic and maintained system can handle break downs without failure. My bad for an improper assumption.

216 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:20:02am

re: #214 lewy14

I can see the argument for it [Fed audit] being a "distraction", but the thing about scrutinizing fiscal habits and spending mechanisms is that people in general have very little consciousness about what money is, what makes it sound, what destroys it.

Again- we should start the education process with Congressional members.

217 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:22:58am

re: #213 Locker
I'm disinclined to argue QM, it's a variant of Godwin's law.

So try this: mersenne prime numbers are always odd.

Reality has a supreme indifference to "personal things".

218 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:23:51am

re: #217 lewy14

I'm disinclined to argue QM, it's a variant of Godwin's law.

So try this: mersenne prime numbers are always odd.

Reality has a supreme indifference to "personal things".

Reality is only held as a personal thing. How can it be otherwise?

219 jayzee  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:24:55am

re: #215 Locker

I agree with that completely. I took your phrase "break down" to mean failure. Of course an unattended system will break down but a dynamic and maintained system can handle break downs without failure. My bad for an improper assumption.

And my argument is that government and dynamic, maintained systems have no business being mentioned in the same sentence. I strongly believe that government is ill equipped to handle the control of car companies, health care, banks, retirement savings etc. This is why it is sooo important that the fed continue to be able to act the way it does-can you imagine what a recession would look like if we needed to hear congress debate if and how much to cut the Fed rate?

220 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:25:34am

re: #218 Locker

Reality is only held as a personal thing. How can it be otherwise?

Then hold tight to it. Because it will be your reality, and only yours.

221 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:27:46am

re: #220 lewy14

Then hold tight to it. Because it will be your reality, and only yours.

I try not to hold it tightly but it is mine and only mine. Same for you. "Reality" is delivered by your senses, filtered then coded by your mind. Your idea of reality is not reality. Your head can't hold reality, it's "within" it. Anyone claiming to know the full nature of reality is in a personal dream.

222 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:28:45am

re: #216 Sharmuta

Again- we should start the education process with Congressional members.


I think the best way to hold Congress accountable and motivate their own investigations is to educate the voters.

223 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:29:44am

re: #221 Locker

Anyone claiming to know the full nature of reality is in a personal dream.


Anyone? Always?

224 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:30:26am

re: #219 jayzee

And my argument is that government and dynamic, maintained systems have no business being mentioned in the same sentence. I strongly believe that government is ill equipped to handle the control of car companies, health care, banks, retirement savings etc. This is why it is sooo important that the fed continue to be able to act the way it does-can you imagine what a recession would look like if we needed to hear congress debate if and how much to cut the Fed rate?

How come? I've always felt that government and especially religion would be a lot more effective if they were defined and operated under a dynamic as opposed to a fixed structure. It seems that the ideal of one right way to do something that works for ever is a fantasy.

I'm not advocating anything in particular, just kicking around some ideas here. I don't know enough about how the fed works to have an opinion on it so I'll leave that one for now.

225 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:32:25am

re: #223 lewy14

Anyone? Always?

Yea gonna have to rework that one, good looking out. Let me try again...

With our current technology and biology I'm unaware of any possible way a human could know and appreciate the full nature of reality.

I like that one a lot better but maybe it still needs work.

226 lewy14  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:32:54am

re: #219 jayzee

This is why it is sooo important that the fed continue to be able to act the way it does-can you imagine what a recession would look like if we needed to hear congress debate if and how much to cut the Fed rate?


I agree, and it gets to a paradox about the Fed: any mechanism sufficient to render it accountable to the people is strong enough to kill it. Yet without accountability...

Which is why I think it's excellent that Ron Paul is threatening the Fed with an audit, and why I hope to hell he doesn't succeed. The threat of a little sunlight is perhaps maximally beneficial.

227 Locker  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:35:04am

re: #223 lewy14

Anyone? Always?

It's HARD to remove that from my thinking and speech. Even when I'm trying. Same with using "I". Sometimes things will go well and a whole sentence or paragraph comes together without using it then 10 seconds later it's "I this, I that, etc etc".

228 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:35:31am

NBC has some coverage in which they state that although the Park Police were saying tens of thousands NBC people (their own count) - NBC claims HUNDREDS of thousands which is a nice way of saying closer to a million. 60-70,000 is chump change - this was enormous.

[Link: www.freedomslighthouse.com...]

229 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:39:19am

re: #228 Classic Conservative

So I'm supposed to trust the msm over the park police? M'kay...

230 jayzee  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:39:46am

re: #224 Locker

How come? I've always felt that government and especially religion would be a lot more effective if they were defined and operated under a dynamic as opposed to a fixed structure. It seems that the ideal of one right way to do something that works for ever is a fantasy.

I'm not advocating anything in particular, just kicking around some ideas here. I don't know enough about how the fed works to have an opinion on it so I'll leave that one for now.

That sounds very nice. How long has our government been kicking around what to do about the social security crisis? The national debt? Welfare and poverty?
now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying government can't help fix things, I am just saying that taking over control of what, IMHO, should be handled by the free market, will not (and to date has not) been successful.

231 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 12:45:31am

#229 Sharmuta -

That wasn't the Park Police estimate the 60-70K, that was the fire dept. Park Police haven't released an official one yet. I believe my eyes, I've seen some fairly large crowds and given that the DC Mall was saturated 60-70 is laughable. Remember, this is an msnbc report - not exactly pro-tea partiers must have hurt them to admit that.

232 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 3:09:09am
233 sir C  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:22:51am

So... Is it LGFs position that most or all of the people at the tea parties are nuts and that no one actually showed up to protest massive government spending and an un needed heath care take over?
I agree that we need to police the crazies in out group but it would be nice if you tried to cover the honest protesters at the rallies as well Charles.

234 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:37:58am
235 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:51:27am
236 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:53:12am

I must confess, I watched absolutely none of the Tea Party Protests/March on Washington. I was too busy, as I figured most American's were, watching Michigan beat ND (something I'm incredibly pleased with) or OK State lose to Houston. I'm glad that a bunch of people got out there and voiced their opinions. It's what makes this country great. As a conservative, I am saddened that so many people appear to have gone off the deep end and begun to revert to the tactics of the left (e.g. Obama = Hitler). I wasn't happy when the left did it to Bush and it is even less classy when the right does it to Obama. I guess I expected more from a party who trumpets family values. Protests ae fine but lunacy should be reviled at every turn regardless of which side of the aisle it comes from. My real fear is that some of these people actually gain power. One Ron Paul is enough, we certainly don't need a majority of those types in the House.

237 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:54:24am

What's sad about all this is that it's exactly the sort of bullshit that the Left was peddling just a couple of years ago. International ANSWER's crowd estimates were routinely five to eight times the size of all other estimates made by professionals and by people who actually counted heads in high-angle or aerial photographs. The latter category was always within a very narrow range; ANSWER's was a huge outlier, with little resemblance to reality.

Now, the exact same thing is going on with the Right. And even worse: those pundits who were up in arms over the obviously fraudulent crowd numbers posted by the Left are now screeching that their own grossly inflated estimates are sound, despite the sheer ridiculousness of such claims. Worse, the Right seems to have upped the ante when it comes to estimate inflation, ballooning crowd numbers by factors of twenty to thirty times all official estimates.

My response when the Left was doing it remains unchanged now that the Right is wearing their shoes: if you have to grossly lie about your support, you're not worth supporting.

Of course, in this case we're talking about organizations which are also lying about their agendas - the Ronulans, neo-Nazis and Birchers who were out in abundance and who actively organized this event.

One would think that real Conservatives would be actively embracing the saner crowd estimates made by officials and corroborated by independent sources. It's far more comforting for me to believe that there were maybe as many as 70,000 people supporting such groups than it is to believe that there were 2 million. If the latter were anywhere near true, the country would be doomed.

238 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 4:55:28am

Uncle Jimbo from Blackfive was at the march and estimated the crowd much closer to 1 million.

[Link: www.blackfive.net...]

239 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:04:41am

re: #231 Classic Conservative

#229 Sharmuta -

That wasn't the Park Police estimate the 60-70K, that was the fire dept. Park Police haven't released an official one yet. I believe my eyes, I've seen some fairly large crowds and given that the DC Mall was saturated 60-70 is laughable. Remember, this is an msnbc report - not exactly pro-tea partiers must have hurt them to admit that.

Fact for comparison - Obama's inauguration drew an estimated 1.6 - 1.8 million people to DC. And the city was crippled as a result - despite weeks of planning by all agencies charged with ensuring an orderly event. The city was simply overwhelmed.

Estimates that this event were of the same magnitude are patently ludicrous, based on nothing more than the simple fact of DC continuing it's normal operations without so much as a hiccup.

Frankly, even the 60k - 70k estimate seems high to me. There are several shots taken from high elevations where the entire crowd can be seen in a single frame, spanning a handful of blocks. Traffic in and around DC was completely unaffected, except of course in the small areas where the crowd itself was gathered. We had a couple of people from work make last-minute business trips to DC on Thursday (arrangements made Wednesday) and there was no problem finding accommodations, a relative rarity itself.

This is the same sort of crap International ANSWER pulled at a number of their anti-war protests, overestimating crowd sizes by a factor of between five and eight times. Except that the Right has now not only adopted but inflated even that technique, and is ballooning it's own estimates by a factor of from 20 to 30 times.

It's sort of like the Internet polling that the Ronulans were so famous for rigging during the last campaign cycle...

Hmmm. Maybe it has something to do with all those Ron Paul supporters who dominated the podium and who did so much of the organization and marketing of this event. Ya think?

240 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:06:49am

re: #238 Classic Conservative

Uncle Jimbo from Blackfive was at the march and estimated the crowd much closer to 1 million.

[Link: www.blackfive.net...]

That's nice. Now, let's return to people with actual expertise in such things and who don't have a particular agenda to push.

There were not even close to a million people there. Unless you start counting voices in the heads of some of the attendees, many of whom seemed to be holding internal debates on whether they had too many men on the mental field at once.

241 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:07:08am

re: #236 Jetpilot1101

I must confess, I watched absolutely none of the Tea Party Protests/March on Washington. I was too busy, as I figured most American's were, watching Michigan beat ND (something I'm incredibly pleased with) or OK State lose to Houston. I'm glad that a bunch of people got out there and voiced their opinions. It's what makes this country great. As a conservative, I am saddened that so many people appear to have gone off the deep end and begun to revert to the tactics of the left (e.g. Obama = Hitler). I wasn't happy when the left did it to Bush and it is even less classy when the right does it to Obama. I guess I expected more from a party who trumpets family values. Protests ae fine but lunacy should be reviled at every turn regardless of which side of the aisle it comes from. My real fear is that some of these people actually gain power. One Ron Paul is enough, we certainly don't need a majority of those types in the House.

Totally agree.

242 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:13:49am

#239 SixDegrees

Either way I guess we will see soon. So, since when is NBC a Ron Paulian outfit? If anything they would be gungho about downplaying this as much as possible. I think you will most likely be proven wrong very soon.

243 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:14:19am
244 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:17:23am

Also, there is a big difference between 1.5 - 1.8 million for the coronation of the Obamation and something just under 1 mil which would still be manageable perhaps. I just don't buy it SixDegrees.

245 right_wing2  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:24:53am

Supposedly the London Daily Mail estimated 2 million. The picture I saw looked like far more than 60,000.

246 captdiggs  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:51:00am

"Local police agencies estimated around 1.2 million people attended the rally,"

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

"But the magnitude of the rally took the authorities by surprise, with throngs of people streaming from the White House to Capitol Hill for more than three hours."
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Personally, I don't think 60,000 or so, about a football game's number, would have surprised the DC "authorities".

247 johnnygriswold  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:55:35am

60K? Really? Good luck trying to get that crowd into a football stadium.

248 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:59:50am
249 swamprat  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:03:39am

re: #234 kellytinman

kellytinman


---

Karma: -3
Registered since: Oct 9, 2005 at 6:59 pm


No. of comments posted: 5
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

Pretty brave. We will miss you. I know how much this site has meant to you for all these years.

250 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:06:14am
251 jones  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:12:16am

For those of you mad at LGF for posting pics of nuts at the protest, maybe you should worry more about the nuts than Charles. Do you think Obama's people are going to ignore these nuts.

Clean up the nuts, not the messenger.

252 swamprat  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:12:18am

re: #250 totalkaosdave

You might want to check out some of the overhead video clips boys and girls before you spin more leftist propaganda...hundreds of thousands, so says ABC News now...

BS talks.
Linky?

253 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:19:21am
254 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 6:30:20am
255 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:04:09am
256 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:07:58am
257 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:11:16am

re: #95 freetoken

From my perspective:

Anyone holding a sign that is a replica of the old "Don't Tread On Me" flag... == loon.

Anyone holding a picture of Obama as the joker == racist loon.

Anyone holding a sign that equates taxes = robbery == loon (because such taxes are indeed created by the duly elected representatives whose responsibility is to raise revenue.

Anyone with grey hair holding a sign that says "No to socialism" == loon (because either they or their friends/family are getting Social Security.)

/Feel free to substitute "hypocrit" for "loon" if that makes you feel better.

That describes the vast majority of people I saw. The place was thick with Don't Tread On Me and anti-tax signs. Fewer socialism signs, but definite presence. About equal with anti-abortion.
Here's a blunderbuss volley of nuttiness.

258 AtadOFF  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:11:36am

re: #245 right_wing2

I agree.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

259 AtadOFF  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:13:49am

re: #89 Charles

Yeah there was a lot of crazy going on.

260 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:18:07am

re: #250 totalkaosdave

You might want to check out some of the overhead video clips boys and girls before you spin more leftist propaganda...hundreds of thousands, so says ABC News now...

Actually, ABC News has issued a rather loud denial of this. They never said any such thing.

And by the way - accuracy and truthfulness are not "leftist propaganda." It's an attempt to arrive at the truth, and to head off charges that the Right is now dominated by a bunch of nutters who can't count. And who don't.

261 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:21:12am

re: #168 Charles

By the way, 'kansas' is blocked. I went through and read all of his/her comments in that thread, and the stench of racism was overwhelming. I don't want that person around here any more.

Expect to see him/her/it turn up shortly at the stalker blog.

FYI. He's there. 13 September, 2009 at 6:05 am

262 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:22:22am

re: #244 Classic Conservative

Also, there is a big difference between 1.5 - 1.8 million for the coronation of the Obamation and something just under 1 mil which would still be manageable perhaps. I just don't buy it SixDegrees.

Right. It's a conspiracy by the DC Fire Department to...uh...wait, what was their vested interest in underestimating again?

So now we're down to under a million - still a city-crippling crowd, sorry to say.

I'm sure you're desperate to believe these ridiculous numbers. Feel free to wallow in delusion, and be sure to keep your tinfoil helmet snugly adjusted.

263 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:26:48am

I'm also chuckling over the statements above citing the New York Times as a reliable source of information. I'd bet that we could search for previous postings by these very same people deriding each and every thing the Times has ever published in the past.

It's a lot like believing everything a Troofer says, because you're so desperate to find something - anything - that supports your delusions.

264 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:30:39am

re: #260 SixDegrees

And by the way - accuracy and truthfulness are not "leftist propaganda."

People seem surprised we would actually do fact checking around here.


re: #263 SixDegrees

I'm also chuckling over the statements above citing the New York Times as a reliable source of information. I'd bet that we could search for previous postings by these very same people deriding each and every thing the Times has ever published in the past.

I was thinking the same thing. The media is the enemy, except when they're a friend.

265 Sean  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:33:51am
"You will not spend the money of our children and our grandchildren to feed an overstuffed government," Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) said of the Obama administration, drawing raucous applause.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/12/AR2009091200971_pf.html

I find that so extremist!

266 bloodnok  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:38:16am

re: #254 cosmicview

I have been reading less and less of the threads over the past months

Yeah, spending your time reading the Shrieking Harpy, no doubt:

I don't feel the need to apologize for Pam anymore than I do for Charles.

Little Green Footballs

Your attempted flounces need work.

267 Classic Conservative  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:38:25am

SixDegrees & Sharmuta -

What about the NBC count claimed by the anchor in the video I linked to. He said more like 100s of thousands. I never said anything approaching 2 mil. More Paulian propaganda? I never accused the DC FD of some kind of conspiracy either, it just doesn't jive with anything else out there or logic.

268 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:39:13am

re: #265 Sean

I totally agree with that sentiment. And having lived with government-provided health "care" for the last 15 years, I can honestly say that it stinks and people will get a huge, unpleasant surprise if single payer becomes the model here.

But I certainly am not going to attend rallies or demonstrations with lunatics, and am not going to vote for their chosen candidates.

269 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:40:01am

re: #267 Classic Conservative

SixDegrees & Sharmuta -

What about the NBC count claimed by the anchor in the video I linked to. He said more like 100s of thousands. I never said anything approaching 2 mil. More Paulian propaganda? I never accused the DC FD of some kind of conspiracy either, it just doesn't jive with anything else out there or logic.

Produce a link to the original source, please. NBC has a website; go find their estimate.

270 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:41:41am

re: #264 Sharmuta

I was thinking the same thing. The media is the enemy, except when they're a friend.

This thread has all the earmarks of an Internet poll swarmed by Ronulans.

271 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:49:29am

re: #267 Classic Conservative

SixDegrees & Sharmuta -

What about the NBC count claimed by the anchor in the video I linked to. He said more like 100s of thousands.

Why is NBC more accurate than the DCFD- besides your willingness to accept it?

272 captdiggs  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:51:13am

re: #263 SixDegrees

I'm also chuckling over the statements above citing the New York Times as a reliable source of information..

The NYT is usually guilty of omission or of overplaying what they feel agrees with their agenda...which is all pro Obama all the time.
The fact that they do mention the magnitude of the crowd is notable for that very reason.

Minimizing the number of people who are not happy with Obama, or characterizing them as racists, extremists, right wing terrorists, does not advance the discussion of the current administration's direction.
Many reasonable people are quite disillusioned by the policy direction of the current president.
Despite the fact that some right side moonbats attended that rally, I saw interviews with quite a few that were well reasoned and moderate in nature. "How will we pay off the debt?", How do we insure 40 million "people at no cost to the taxpayer?", "My state taxes, real estate taxes, are rising as a result of state deficits. Will Federal taxes be next?". There were also comments and questions about his foreign policy.
These were all quite normal people, teachers, nurses, firefighters, office workers...not Cindy Sheehan.

273 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:52:29am

re: #267 Classic Conservative

SixDegrees & Sharmuta -

What about the NBC count claimed by the anchor in the video I linked to. He said more like 100s of thousands. I never said anything approaching 2 mil. More Paulian propaganda? I never accused the DC FD of some kind of conspiracy either, it just doesn't jive with anything else out there or logic.

It's just like with polls. They are evil and skewed until someone finds one that tells them what they want to hear (and that is usually the skewed one).

274 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:57:19am

re: #272 captdiggs

Minimizing the number of people who are not happy with Obama, or characterizing them as racists, extremists, right wing terrorists, does not advance the discussion of the current administration's direction.

Why are you telling us this? Tell the racists, extremists and right wing terrorists they're not advancing the discussion.

275 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:00:10am

re: #273 Bloodnok

It's just like with polls. They are evil and skewed until someone finds one that tells them what they want to hear (and that is usually the skewed one).

To clarify I presume the NBC anchor estimate to be the skewed one in this case. Not the DCFD who, you know, have a bit more experience at these things.

276 bruce rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:00:37am

Granted 1.5 to 2 million sounds very high, but since when is the DC Fire Department in the business of giving out demonstration size estimates - official or unofficial?

Estimating demonstration size in DC typically requires experience using aerial photos, taken over a period of time, as people typically come and go during a demonstration. Even then crowd estimates vary widely. Remember the Million Man March?

The estimates used to be provided by the Capitol Police, but they stopped after serious questions were raised by critics.

If the DC Fire Department wants to make estimates then they have an obligation to make their methodology and data public. Otherwise we can assume we're just hearing an estimate from a political hack with an axe to grind - a result no more legitimate than those made by demonstrators themselves.

277 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:08:54am

re: #276 bruce rheinstein

I gather the DCFD has a pretty good eye when it comes to crowd estimates. Do you realize how many "crowds" this particular department is called upon to estimate -officially or unofficially? This is not your local FD who sees a few hundred yahoos show up for homecoming. These protests happen all the time in DC -some with astronomical attendance.

I trust their eye.

And always claiming that any figure you do not like must be the result of some unseen political motivation (which usually ends with the word "Soros" at some point) is the political equivalent of Intelligent Design. "I can't explain why he's saying it, so it must be this".

278 MrC_5150  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:12:35am

60-70,000??? I attended the Rhode Island Air National Guard Open House Air Show back in June and there were easily that number of people in attendance. Much much smaller area too. I'm guesstimating from the time lapse video from that one camera posted at Michelle Malkin's site that there were at least several hundred thousand people in attendance yesterday in D.C.

279 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:14:23am

re: #270 SixDegrees

This thread has all the earmarks of an Internet poll swarmed by Ronulans.

Suddenly everyone is a crowd size expert.

280 servonaut  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:16:32am

The story linked above states.

approximately 60,000 to 70,000 people flooded Pennsylvania Ave, according to the Washington DC Fire Department.

I don't think the grassy areas between the Washington Mt and the Capital is Pennsylvania Ave.

281 Bruce Rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:17:04am

re: #277 Bloodnok

I live near DC and used to live in DC. I'm not familiar with the DC Fire Department giving estimates of crowd size at political demonstrations, and I note that this one is "unofficial".

Perhaps you can point me to evidence that they routinely provide estimates of the size of political demonstrations? Usually such estimates are made by police. In DC they used to be made by the Capitol Police, who are Federal.

If officials of the DC Fire Department are routinely doing this then they have an obligation to provide us with their methodology or data.

Right now, it seems no more reliable than estimates by the demonstrators, themselves.

282 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:19:24am

re: #278 MrC_5150

Slumbering Behemoth linked to this last night.

Bristol can hold 165 thousand people, and this photo shows significantly more than showed up in that video.

Several tens of thousands jives with what I saw on the Mall. Max 100k, but that assumes I couldn't see well over half the crowd.

283 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:26:00am

re: #281 Bruce Rheinstein

I live near DC and used to live in DC. I'm not familiar with the DC Fire Department giving estimates of crowd size at political demonstrations, and I note that this one is "unofficial".

Perhaps you can point me to evidence that they routinely provide estimates of the size of political demonstrations? Usually such estimates are made by police. In DC they used to be made by the Capitol Police, who are Federal.

If officials of the DC Fire Department are routinely doing this then they have an obligation to provide us with their methodology or data.

Right now, it seems no more reliable than estimates by the demonstrators, themselves.

Perhaps you can point me to evidence that they routinely provide estimates of the size of political demonstrations?

That's the point. They are not an official source of the estimate and nobody is claiming that they are. But they are forced to deal with these crowds on a regular basis. And from a health & safety perspective I am sure they have an interest in making estimates and making them accurately.

284 psyop  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:30:39am

re: #26 Grimace

What's going on Charles?

re: #41 Charles

Not much. Wassup with you?

Very nearly had a morning coffee spit-take with that one...


Good stuff...

285 Bruce Rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:52:44am

re: #283 Bloodnok

The DC Fire Department is a city agency in perhaps the most heavily Democratic city in the country. I'm not aware that they make this sort of crowd estimate for political demonstrations that occur primarily on Federal land over which they have no jurisdiction. Does anyone know of other examples of their making estimates of this nature, or is this a one-off by some political appointee?

Tell me 1.5-2 million and that seems awfully high. Tell me 50-60 thousand and that seems low. The crowd picture from the Daily Mail appears to show more (to my admittedly untrained eye) than that.

Is anyone aware of any aerial photos of the demonstration? (Feel free to minus me, Sharmutta, but I assure you that I am not a "Paulian", Ron or otherwise.)

286 psyop  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:54:37am

re: #279 Sharmuta

Suddenly everyone is a crowd size expert.

It seems to be easy for people when their jobs or ability to manage city operations/disaster response is not on the line.

For those of us who live in the real world, I will take the estimates of an apolitical agency (say... the DC Fire Dept.) whose very job relies on the accuracy of such estimates.

287 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:54:52am

re: #285 Bruce Rheinstein

I will ding you down- for being a whiner as well as for not calling out your other downdingers. Whiner.

288 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:58:06am

re: #281 Bruce Rheinstein

Usually such estimates are made by police. In DC they used to be made by the Capitol Police, who are Federal.

Uh - no. The DC police work for the District of Columbia. The Federal employees you're probably thinking of belong to the National Park Service.

If officials of the DC Fire Department are routinely doing this then they have an obligation to provide us with their methodology or data.

No, they aren't. What planet are you posting from? If you're interested, call 'em up and ask 'em how they arrived at their estimate - you're claiming you're nearby, so it won't even cost you that much. Well, assuming you really are close by - thinking that the DC police are somehow Federal police is...well, silly. It's like claiming that Marion Barry was a Federal employee.

Fire departments are charged with public safety, among their other tasks. I'm far more inclined to take their word on something like this than the word of some Ronulan sporting a tinfoil helmet.

289 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:59:23am

re: #285 Bruce Rheinstein

The DC Fire Department is a city agency in perhaps the most heavily Democratic city in the country.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

290 filetandrelease  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:19:04am

re: #89 Charles

And some of the craziest people weren't in the crowd. They were on the stage, speaking into the microphones.


Classic line.

291 coloradobuff  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:20:22am

I certainly wouldn't accept the DC Fire Department's estimate blindly. I have no idea who is in control of the number that they released. (Some liberal political appointee, perhaps?) I don't think I would accept anyone's estimate blindly, including the right-wing blogs. I can only go off of what I have seen in the security camera pictures, and there were a hell of a lot of people there, as far as I'm concerned. That's really all I need to know.

292 Bruce Rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:24:12am

re: #288 SixDegrees

The Capitol Police are a Federal agency. You're confusing them with the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Political Demonstrations take place primarily on Federal (not city) land. The Capitol Police used to make estimates of the size of demonstrations using aerial photography, but stopped after the Million Man March.

I'm not taking the word of the demonstrators. The 1.5 - 2 million estimate seems awfully high. Demonstrators are notorious for inflating their numbers. International A.N.S.W.E.R did it effectively for the anti-war demonstrations.

But I'm not taking the word of some political appointee at the DC city Fire Department, either.

293 jptmd  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:33:22am

The Daily Mail quoted the "Washington Homeland Security and Emergency Management Agency." I am always amazed that the NYPD can correctly tell the number of people on New Year's Eve in Times Square or how many marched/attended the St Patrick's Day Parade yet no other organization has this technology.

294 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:33:44am

Amazing. Now the DC Fire Department is in on the plot too.

I had no idea Obama's tentacles were so long.

295 norman1905  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:42:38am

And they were all NUTJOBS! Not one legitimate protester!

296 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:43:36am

Waaah! I don't want to look! You can't make me look! Waaah!

297 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:43:58am
298 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:44:42am

re: #71 Throbert McGee

VOOF! I like the two "bookend" firemen, who very conspicuously don't wax.

(Because chest-waxing is a sin that makes the Baby Jesus cry.)

hahahahahahahahahahahaaa

299 Bruce Rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:45:36am

re: #294 Charles

The DC government, including services, is and has been for as long as I can remember highly political. Consider how they deal with whistle blowers when they try to cover something up, which is not infrequent..

Tell me the Tea Partiers inflated their numbers and I'll agree with you. Tell me that I should believe an unofficial estimate by the government of the District of Columbia, without more, and you've lost me. They have little credibility.

300 avspatti  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:47:00am

The important fact is that many thousands of citizens joined in the protest against spending so much money along with heath care etc. Why must we worry about the exact number? Let us not focus on the minors; let us focus on the majors!!

301 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:47:42am

Waah! What happened to LGF! Waah! Why are you taking the word of the socialist DC Fire Department! You suck! Waah!

302 MPH  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:15:38am

I was at a Phish concert once (I'm not a fan, just had a free ticket) -- and they said there were 75K-80K people there. This is what it looked like from the air:

Image: Phish-pbi07.jpg

Image: phish.gif
Image: went-783950.jpg

I remember that was a ton of people. I have no idea what the final number was in DC, but I'd like to see some proper aerial photos.

303 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:20:08am

re: #302 MPH

I was at a Phish concert once (I'm not a fan, just had a free ticket) -- and they said there were 75K-80K people there. This is what it looked like from the air:

[Link: images.starpulse.com...]

[Link: tech.mit.edu...]
[Link: www.gadiel.com...]

I remember that was a ton of people. I have no idea what the final number was in DC, but I'd like to see some proper aerial photos.

That looks very close to the size of the DC crowd. There were several wide shots of the crowd during the C-SPAN broadcast yesterday.

I'm not claiming any "expertise" but as a musician I played in front of some really large audiences. At the first Rock in Rio festival, there were over 250,000 people -- and I could tell that the crowd yesterday was not even close to that size.

304 MJ  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:27:20am

What the hell is wrong with Roger Simon? He quotes the Daily Mail article which is based on an erroneous figure which was manipulated by the organizers of the march itself ( but unsourced in the article itself) as the basis of an article.
Shame on these folks for not bothering to check their sources. They should be embarrassed and it hurts their credibility.

Up to two million march to US Capitol to protest against Obama's spending in 'tea-party' demonstration


[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Simon:

...Barely more than a half-year later, they’re putting two million people on the Washington Mall. Wow! If I were Obama & Co., I’d be afraid, I’d be very afraid...


[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

305 JEA62  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:30:13am

re: #292 Bruce Rheinstein

Both Fox and USAToday reported "tens of thousands"

306 Hassen bin Sober  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:37:59am

My wife and I were there – the attendees were put on the march early from Freedom Square up Pennsylvania Ave to the NorthWesterly side of the Capitol, and slightly beyond that point to wrap behind the podium, with people streaming into the march from the north/south streets the entire way – Not the National Mall area - look at a map - the crowd was solid people from the Capitol speaking platform point back to at least 12th Street – there was no plan to assemble onto the Mall, the police were blocking the southerly access from Penna Ave to the Mall area, and few went over that way as far as I could tell – the toilets were nearer to Constitution Ave, at least 70 portables, and the lines were 30 deep for each one, for hours - there were =, steady state, some 2000 people just in the area of the portables – I walked back towards the start point from the end point, counting in width and strides, estimating against 50 people in a Penna Ave street width, to keep it computable - I can do the geometry and the math – I believe that, conservatively, there were at least 400,000 – 500,000, and twice that would not be a shock, as there was lots of crowd expansion/dispersal to the north onto Constitution Ave. too. IMO the crowd was overwhelmingly, 95% + populated by reasonable, pleasant, decent and concerned citizens of this once-great nation.

307 Captain Jack  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:56:10am

I was in DC and spent hours looking at the various signs and people. Like more leftward leaning demonstrations there were the usual kooks but they were far outnumbered by more sane protesters. I don't think LGF means to paint the event as a total kook-fest by outing the fringe but the focus sure makes it look that way. I guess it must just be the hyper-sensitivity that comes from conservatives being constantly characterized by the mainstream media as greedy, fascistic, christian warmongers. I think a good example would be CBS news showing only the controversial signs especially the focus on the LaRouche Obama with the hitler mustache ones. Of course most people dont know LaRouche is a left wing nut who ran for the democrat presidential nomination 7 times. CBS knows this but showing the Obama/Hitler sign serves the purpose of discrediting the entire event. I am sure LGF is only trying to point these kooks out to prevent them from spoiling the movement.

308 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:11:53am

re: #307 Captain Jack

The organizers are kooks. No less than five of the featured speakers yesterday were Ron Paul followers. Another featured speaker was Amy Kremer, the person who defended sending around a picture of Barack Obama with a bone through his nose.

The kooks are running this "movement." Nobody seems to care.

309 Captain Jack  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:25:56am

Ok Charles good point but I dont think anybody seemed to care that most of the lefty demonstrations were funded and organized by radicals. Just look at the communist funding and organizing that occurred at the immigration demonstrations a couple of years ago (International ANSWER and Workers World Party). Nobody in the media most people see tried to paint those marching as communists or sympathizers even though it was held on May Day! (ok I know May Day is "International Workers Day" but it was adopted by the USSR for large demonstrations of worker solidarity) Most of the anti-war demonstrations also had those same communist parties helping to organize and print signs.

310 Hassen bin Sober  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:33:45am

I don't think Dick Armey is a kook, but I do think Amy Kremer was/is out-of-bounds with hyperbole and, except for sound-money principles, I have no time for the Paulians - there was much talking-down and verbal disagreement within the assembled crowd against those whose projections had nothing to do with the issue that most (IMO) held closest to - no more expansion of the federal gov't and no more expansion of the federal debt, and no more astonishing levels of debt being thrown at us as if they are moral issues alone and we who oppose it are "haters", rascists and KKK members - nonsense like that is not going to get much future tolerance and is going to refuted with revulsion and at the ballot box.

311 MPH  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:39:45am

Found this:
[Link: twitpic.com...]

I don't know if this was taken at the peak -- but 100K people would be pushing it, to say the least.

I lived in DC for 5 years -- I know Capital Hill like the back of my hand. I've seen enough protests and July 4th fireworks celebrations (where the entire mall, front and back of the Washington Monument is full -- which isn't even two million people), to know that many folks are opting for wishful thinking on the crowd sizes.

I personally wish the tea partiers well -- and despite the significant percentage of freaks attempting to subvert the movement to their own means, a lot of people are simply fed up with the federal government's overreach -- and some peaceful venting can be healthy.

I wouldn't have minded being there -- and would have driven down to check it out first hand if I hadn't so much work to catch up on this weekend -- I was planning to meet up with Tuscon, AZ tea party organizer, Robert Mayer (publius pundit) -- who I can attest is not a Ron Paul moonbat or paleocon freak show in any way shape or form.

312 Bruce Rheinstein  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:44:17am

re: #305 JEA62

The "unofficial" estimate from a spokesman for the DC Fire Department (an agency not heretofore known for issuing these estimates) has now apparently become the de facto official estimate. NBC also reported "tens of thousands", but also said "their own [i.e. NBC's] people think hundreds of thousands were here" and provide details. Perhaps they're Ron Paulist conspiracy nuts, too.

I don't get the impression that everyone who was at the rally was a gun-totting Ron Paul nut anymore than I think the anti-war demonstrators were a bunch of Workers' World Party communists. The nature of these events is that they are often organized by fringe elements, but that doesn't make them any less meaningful or effective.

313 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:45:17am

re: #311 MPH

Found this:
[Link: twitpic.com...]

Those tents in the back, by the way, were for an entirely different event that brought many thousands to the Mall - The Black Family Reunion Celebration.

It would be interesting and ironic if tea party attendance estimates included those numbers.

314 Hassen bin Sober  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 11:48:11am

MPH - nice - anyone who wants to report or comment on this thing with any credibility whatsoever would have paid, or at least now pay, attention to the fact that the march was on Penn Ave, that the end point was at the Capitol northwesterly vector near constitution and that the Mall was blocked at each southerly intersection by Capitol Police - and that the crowd was concentrated ON Penna Ave. THe shot you choose is part of the march that overflowed from the reflecting pool back onto the Mall, where the cops definitely did not want congregation.

315 Icculus  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 2:33:09pm

re: #195 Locker

It is hard for me as a liberal to imaging people not being covered or having to declare bankruptcy if they get really sick or hurt.

How would it make you feel, as a liberal, if our country went bankrupt as a result of lots and lots of people becoming mildly ill or slightly injured?

316 spikerules  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 2:41:59pm

I, too was at the event and agree with the 400-500,000 attendance (not surprised if more). My family and I parked our bodies on the steps at the southwest corner of the pool in front of the Capitol. Around 1pm I attempted to get closer to the speakers platform -- scouting for a better place to sit. The sidewalk next to south side of pool was passable, but once I got in front of the pool it was packed. I decided to try and find seating elsewhere around the pool but it was difficult to make our way through due to the amount of people. It took about 40 mins. to make my way back to the southwest corner. On my walk I looked back and saw a crowd still coming in from Penna. Ave. side (made my way up steps next to Grant Statue) Also, the crowd on either side of the platform was heavy -- reaching almost to Constitution and Independence Aves.

317 Icculus  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 2:52:34pm

re: #213 Locker

It's not a fact on the quantum mechanics level.

It is, actually, albeit unproven at this point. It may just take a little longer to materialize (which, for the record, watch out when that starts happening).

318 skywarner  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 5:40:32pm

re: #308 Charles

The kooks are running this "movement." Nobody seems to care.

Meanwhile, corruption is destroying our government - and by extension, our nation - from within.

This movement, like ANY movement, has its share of nutjobs, kooks, and wackos. It's core, however, is composed of normal citizens who have gotten fed up with the mess we are passing along to our children and our grandchildren. I have never attended a protest of any kind in my entire 42 years, but I did attend in DC on Saturday and I am proud that I did. I will be indifferent no more.

The attendance numbers were easily in the hundreds of thousands. Heh - there were 60,000 people just standing in line to use the portable toilets!

319 Capitalist Tool  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 7:32:35pm

I missed the puppet show.
Was Lambchop there? Burning man?

320 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:14:50pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

(Nowhere near the 2,000,000+ being claimed at some right wing blogs.) Fact checking. Gets them every time.

The anti-Israel 'crowd' makes the same sort of claim every time. Where they'll get only about 500 leftists to show up and throw tantrums on the streets of San Francisco - on Indybay, the claim will be that 3500+ appeared and oh what a smashing success it was. Anyway, yet another interesting comparison.

321 korla pundit  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:21:08pm

re: #308 Charles

> The kooks are running this "movement." Nobody seems to care.

Kooks take over any movement that is fueled by anger at not being listened to by politicians of either political party, particularly because they are leaderless, and easy to hijack. Also, the majority of participants are there because of a single issue, whether it's a revolt against runaway government bloat or an anti-war protest, and people with a common cause are usually willing to overlook the fringe elements that attach themselves to any crowd.

How many people were convinced to attend "peace" rallies only to find themselves surrounded by Che posters and hammers and sickles and Bush=Hitler signs? It's not like you can ask them to leave. And if the organizer is a nutcase, they certainly don't advertise that. Most people don't even know who the organizers are.

But the anger and the frustration are real, and it is very widespread. However, if the Republicans think this will benefit them greatly, they had better be careful. People who consider themselves conservative have lost faith in the GOP years ago, and the last 2 election cycles should prove that. They are not trusted to do anything different from Democrats. They had 8 years to fix things and they blew it.

The Ron Pauls and the Buchanans who see this as an opportunity to gain support may see a temporary blip, but will only poison the well.

If, however, the GOP (or any other party) could find somebody who knew how to tap into this amorphous anger (not just at Obama and the Democrats running Congress but at ALL politicians) without having to appeal to religious or extremist elements, they would have a truly powerful candidate.

But leaders are in short supply these days.

322 Abu Boo Boo  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:21:43pm

It's now clear that the 60,000 estimate was way low.

The following link includes an aerial photo and a National Park Service graphic for estimating the inauguration crowd. The Tea Party crowd might have been 10-20% smaller. That would still put it well in excess of 600,000--more than 10 x the DC Fire Department estimate.

Say Anything Blog

323 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:28:16pm

re: #322 Abu Boo Boo

It's now clear that the 60,000 estimate was way low.

The following link includes an aerial photo and a National Park Service graphic for estimating the inauguration crowd. The Tea Party crowd might have been 10-20% smaller. That would still put it well in excess of 600,000--more than 10 x the DC Fire Department estimate.

Say Anything Blog

That's just dead wrong. I was on the mall yesterday. I went to the Air and space museum, and the crowd was more than a hundred yards away across two streets from there. The teaparty crowd didn't come close to filling the "ticketed area" of the Mall toward the Capital. Even the perspective on that first picture shows the green areas behind the crowd. The tents in the "back" of the mall started before Smithsonian Castle and were for a completely different event.

324 Abu Boo Boo  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:32:21pm

The aerial photo was incorrect. The correct photo suggests a crowd in the 200,000-300,000 range based on the National Park Service graphic. Still a multiple of 60,000.

325 Coracle  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 9:38:17pm

Damn my lying eyes, then.

326 Abu Boo Boo  Sun, Sep 13, 2009 10:16:23pm

re: #325 Coracle

Damn my lying eyes, then.

It's almost impossible to estimate a crowd like this on foot. Take into account some of the comments above about which streets were filled, where access to the mall was blocked, etc. Look also at the time lapse video (well above ground level).

It clearly wasn't anything near 2 million. But the time lapse video shows at its peak a crowd that I don't think could be contained in a large football stadium, either.

327 freetoken  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:46:29am

re: #324 Abu Boo Boo

The aerial photo was incorrect.

You keep saying "aerial", but the first photo on the link you provided is from the ground (or more accurately, close to the portico of the Capitol). From such a low angle, and with a sufficiently wide angle lens, you can't tell how far back the audience goes.

One would need a true aerial photo.

328 freetoken  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:48:51am

re: #318 skywarner

It's core, however, is composed of normal citizens who have gotten fed up with the mess we are passing along to our children and our grandchildren.

Why don't you accept that the organizers and the speakers are part of the "core"?

Those you call "core" we have another name for: suckers.

329 abu boo boo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 6:07:26am

Having been misled by the aerial photo that the Say Anything blog now admits was not from the Tea Party, I've looked at every photo I could find and read every eyewitness report I could find--not eyewitness crowd estimates but comments that could reasonably be used to help judge the size of the crowd.

My guess is that the crowd was in the 125,000 - 175,000 range. The smaller estimates assume everyone was on the mall at the same time, while many have reported that the mall was not the official destination. Taking into account reports about public transportation, restrooms, streets filled, etc. I'm convinced the crowd was larger than a football stadium, but certainly not 10 x or more.

330 abu boo boo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 6:55:41am

re: #308 Charles

The organizers are kooks. No less than five of the featured speakers yesterday were Ron Paul followers. Another featured speaker was Amy Kremer, the person who defended sending around a picture of Barack Obama with a bone through his nose.

The kooks are running this "movement." Nobody seems to care.

That is a very reasonable concern.

However, there are also many people who feel that this country is now in danger of abandoning the principles upon which it was founded. Obama is not a Hitler, but he and his followers are certainly collectivists, and it's unclear how committed they are to individual rights (beyond a few pet issues).

I don't think the majority of Tea Party attendees are Paulians, and to the extent they are silent on the issue it's because Paul's links to NeoNazis and hatred of Israel have not come up.

The way to prevent Ron Paul from dominating the movement is not to dismiss everyone who participates as extreme but to show them that Ron Paul is not a consistent defender of individual rights.

331 bofhell  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:08:29am

re: #308 Charles

re: #292 Bruce Rheinstein

As Bruce Rheinstein points out, the DC Fire Department is not well known for providing crowd estimate, and while the final protest site was the West Lawn of the US Capitol Building, the gathering site was Freedom Plaza -- essentially Pennsylvania Avenue between 13th and 14th streets, which is very much part of the District of Columbia (and very much under the purview of the Metro Police and FEMS [Fire and Emergency Medical Services])

All that being said, crowd estimates for large protest marches in DC were generally done by the National Park Service, through the analysis of aerial imagery. This lasted until the '90s and the Million Man March. NPS initially estimated the march to be several hundred thousand people, while an analysis from Boston Univ put the (eventually accepted) number at about 850,000 people. Afterwards, the Congress compelled NPS to cease estimating crowd sizes, and other public agencies (like the US Capitol Police and the Metropolitan Police) have followed suit. Consequently, I would be very skeptical of any numbers from the "DC Fire Department" unless you are seeing them on their public web site, and even then, I'd hold off the celebration.

Now what has changed recently is with the most recent inauguration, NPS did make an estimate for the crowd (I will leave it to others to conclude whether it did so with Congress' blessing or not and other tangential issues). [See [Link: www.usatoday.com...] It is not at all clear however that NPS is estimating the size of crowds in the National Capital on some ongoing basis.

[Also of note is a quote from a Dan Bana of NPS calling Saturday's rally "the largest ever" or words to that effect. That seems to be a misrepresentation of a quote of NPS public affairs chief David Barna, in reference to the 2009 Presidential Inauguration.]

So all that being said, there is this compelling picture of the crowd from Saturday. It appears to be taken from an elevation near the northwest corner of Freedom Plaza, looking down Pennsylvania Avenue straight at the Capitol, and yes, as far as one can tell, both the Plaza and Pennsylvania Avenue are filled with people. So what can we glean from this?

Freedom Plaza is about 130,000 square feet.

The stretch of Pennsylvania Avenue from 13th St NW to the US Capitol is 4,400 feet, and the road itself is about 100 feet wide -- 440,000 square feet.

Total 570,000 square feet.

In the USA Today article above, NPS stated that a packed crowd has one person every 2.5 square feet, and a free flowing crowd has one every 5 square feet

So if that picture has captured all the people here in DC for the protest (or even a very large majority of them), we know the crowd has to be between 114,000 and 228,000 people (more likely towards the latter, as I believe the picture is of the crowd marching down to the Capitol building, and thus closer to the 5 sq ft / person number).

So no, the 60k number really does look too low, but 1 to 2 million? As lots of folks in South Carolina would point out, "That dog don't hunt."

Have I missed something here?

332 Robert Schwartz  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:55:40pm

March on Washington: How Big Was the Crowd?
Our attempt to calculate the true size of the 9/12 march.
September 14, 2009 - by Charlie Martin
:

Conclusion: probably well more than 850,000 in the crowd.

An Impression Of The Protest:

the evidence indicates this demonstration was at minimum still over two hundred thousand, and most likely three hundred thousand-plus, possibly as large as five hundred thousand. “Hundreds of thousands” is the non-misleading and defensible description.

333 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:13:09pm

re: #332 Robert Schwartz

March on Washington: How Big Was the Crowd?
Our attempt to calculate the true size of the 9/12 march.
September 14, 2009 - by Charlie Martin
:

Conclusion: probably well more than 850,000 in the crowd.

An Impression Of The Protest:

the evidence indicates this demonstration was at minimum still over two hundred thousand, and most likely three hundred thousand-plus, possibly as large as five hundred thousand. “Hundreds of thousands” is the non-misleading and defensible description.

Not even close. All of these people pushing out these absurdly inflated numbers are going to look like fools when the Parks Department's official count is released.

334 Mattsky  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:20:34pm

Just from the picture I have seen I have no doubt that the fire dept numbers are low. You can quibble about the actual numbers but it is fair to say they got a good turn out. Their basic message of toss the bums out and controlling spending have good merit.

335 bofhell  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:31:02am

re: #333 Charles

Well, yes and no Charles.

850k is a reasonable upper limit on the crowd size based on Charlie Martin's back of the envelope analysis, but it remains a limit, not a definitive count.

I think an excellent refining measure to watch out for is the Washington Metro's service reports (that Charlie also cited -- they are available here: [Link: www.wmata.com...] Quite simply, you can't put an additional eight to nine hundred thousand people into Washington DC without a significant up-tick in Metro ridership.

If you look at the January data ([Link: www.wmata.com...] you see pretty typical weekday ridership (700k on the subway, but the bus numbers have to be an estimate -- I find it hard to believe it was exactly 470,733 EVERY day!) but on Inauguration day (a holiday for Federal agencies), that number jumps on the subway to 1.1 million. [By comparison, subway ridership on President's Day, Feb 16, is only 290k, which is about what you see on weekends.] So 290k seems a good "baseline" for nominal ridership that day (i.e. people using Metorail to get to work -- while the Government is the LARGEST employer in DC, it is not the ONLY employer in DC, and Metro serves more than the just downtown DC). That suggests an extra 400k people used Metrorail on Inauguration Day (since everyone had to make one trip to get to the Mall and a second trip to go home).

So to paraphrase Warner Wolf, let's wait for the video tape!

336 BurtB  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 7:40:22pm

I agree with
321 korla pundit Sun, Sep 13, 2009 8:21:08pm

"the anger and the frustration are real,". That kooks can get out in front of the parade and look like they are leading it diminishes the real anger that the Government is expanding at an unreasonable rate, and the Liberal Congress is going to raise our taxes to fund it (after claiming that Bush is responsible for the deficit and the only responsible thing to do is raise taxes to clean up bush's mess) (never mind that the deficit was near 1 tr around Jan 2009, and is now going to be 9 tr, even if Pelosi care doe not pass)
It does not matter if there were 200,000 people who showed up, or 850,000 people. There were a boat load, and even more who could not show, who wanted to deliver the message "shrink government". That is the one theme everyone there could agree on. Yes, Obama=hitler is childish and does not move the ball for conservatives. Yes, threats to revolt using guns is probably unnecessary. Yes, Ron Paul gets in the way of the message for lots of people. Yes, there are some racists on the right fringe of the Conservative movement, but Jew hatred and the bigotry of low expectations is so much more prevalent on the left.


Is Glen Beck a racist? I have no reason to believe that. Does he do things to get ratings? probably, but, if he is the only one holding the spotlight to Acorn abuse, then why are we against him? Beck seems to be for less control of the USA by leftists, less illegal aliens, smaller government, stronger prosecution of the war on terror, less politician hypocrisy, and less obama worship. and so I still do not get what is the complaint against him ? Could someone point me to the link?


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