I can't even watch this shit.

This is the result of a steady stream of conspiracy theories and misinformation. It's only going to get worse.

re: #1 SixDegrees

If it's too much for you then just watch the second half for the analysis.

re: #1 SixDegrees

I can't even watch this shit.

I can't listen to it. Mainly because my PC speakers are dying.

CBS tells its shrinking audience that it's an "Angry Crowd."

It's one fucking moron after another. It's absolutely no different than watching a Code Pink rally.

When do we see the giant puppets? That seems to be the only thing missing.

Fringe is as fringe does.

Is there's a "Dark Fringe" to the tea parties? That's self-evidently obvious. The only question is how extensive it is.

Is the "Dark Fringe" all that the MSM is interesting on reporting, as opposed to the sympathetic manner in which they reported on anti-Bush protests?

re: #6 SixDegrees

It's one fucking moron after another. It's absolutely no different than watching a Code Pink rally.

When do we see the giant puppets? That seems to be the only thing missing.

See the pictures in an earlier post.

The dumbing down of America continues a pace, I guess...

re: #5 rwmofo

CBS tells its shrinking audience that it's an "Angry Crowd."

They're right - it was a very angry crowd.

re: #6 SixDegrees

Oh, they had puppets. Go look at the thread a few downstairs...

Tea party movement has anger, no dominant leaders

"...In Louisville, Kentucky, two young men in camouflage fatigues roamed the crowd trying to recruit new members for their militia called the Ohio Valley Freedom Fighters. They bear signs reading "AK-47s: today's pitchfork" and "Quit worrying. Start your militia training today."

In Jackson, Michigan, a young man didn't need a sign. He was carrying the real thing: A loaded AK-47 assault rifle and two loaded handguns.

"I don't want a revolution. I don't want a civil war," he said. "But it is a possibility. It's there as an option, as a last resort..."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

It would seem the MSM has never seen any of Zombies reports.

re: #6 SixDegrees

When do we see the giant puppets? That seems to be the only thing missing.

There are giant puppets too. Not many drum circles though.

re: #11 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, they had puppets. Go look at the thread a few downstairs...

I'm going to go throw up for a while.

re: #13 redshirt

It would seem the MSM has never seen any of Zombies reports.

"There are no enemies on the left."

Jim Spellman traveled across the country to these events. He attended dozens of them. And you can tell he's pretty creeped out by what he saw.

Of course, he's a commie. So we shouldn't trust him.

re: #8 JamesTKirk

There will be any number of people who'll use this as "evidence" that Americans are "stupid, ignorant, gun-toting racists" -- or that this is representative of Americans...(and it's that broad brush which I object to)...

I notice nobody ever complained that I was "cherry-picking" when I posted photos from left wing protests. Nobody ever said this was just a tiny minority. Nobody said I was being unfair then.

Now that it's the right wing oxe's turn to be gored, suddenly the complaints are flowing.

In a conversation with a lefty on a similar topic on facebook the other day, I pointed out how vile the left was ant anti Bush rallies.
A I shit you not. His reply was "Well, Bush deserved it".

re: #17 Charles

Jim Spellman traveled across the country to these events. He attended dozens of them. And you can tell he's pretty creeped out by what he saw.

Of course, he's a commie. So we shouldn't trust him.

More from the his tour:

"No one on the tea party express seems concerned with the vocal fringe of the crowds that come with offensive signs -- besides Nazi imagery, a poster of Obama as an African witch doctor has become popular -- or the numerous conspiracy theories that float around most tea parties..."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

re: #20 redshirt

In a conversation with a lefty on a similar topic on facebook the other day, I pointed out how vile the left was ant anti Bush rallies.
A I shit you not. His reply was "Well, Bush deserved it".

Is that supposed to be an excuse?

Is this Charles' fault?

Tea Party people, stop being nuts. You have plenty of legitimate complaints.

re: #19 Charles

I notice nobody ever complained that I was "cherry-picking" when I posted photos from left wing protests. Nobody ever said this was just a tiny minority. Nobody said I was being unfair then.

Now that it's the right wing oxe's turn to be gored, suddenly the complaints are flowing.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that now. I was referring to the inconsistent reporting by the MSM.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

There are giant puppets too. Not many drum circles though.

Or people trying to levitate a government building.

re: #10 Charles

They're right - it was a very angry crowd.

Do wing-nuts show up at these events? Yes.

Was everyone there 'angry?' No.

Well Spellman may not be a Commie, but he certainly isn't a patriot.

Patriots these days talk about staging a revolution, civil war, or The South seceding.

/

My strict diet of hollywood violence and brutal video games has given me quite the immunity to weapons...and perhaps my paint ball wars...and all the guns I shot growing up for target practice in the Rocky Mountains.

That said, pretty weak to bring a weapon like that to a protest of this nature. I see no point in it.

The attitude of , 'Because I CAN!' doesn't help out the cause...at all.

re: #26 rwmofo

Do wing-nuts show up at these events? Yes.

Was everyone there 'angry?' No.

This "excuse" is tiresome and pathetic. You don't need unanimity to have one hell of an ugly, loathsome problem.

re: #21 MJ

Interesting...

To Wierzbicki these troubling elements are just part of the price of a grassroots movement. He is convinced they will not derail the movement.

"The message will be moderated by the time it gets to 2010," he says.

Good luck with that. I don't think they can put the jini back in the bottle.

re: #12 MJ

That is a nutter. A dangerous one at that.

re: #22 Charles

Is that supposed to be an excuse?

No, it's not an excuse. I am appalled with the far right's disgusting antics, and I reject them.
The left, however excuses their far left antics because deep down they think they are correct, just a bit extreme.

My experience at the April 15 Tea Party was that there were a lot of people who were disgusted with both parties and all the spending. But there were also Paulians and cospirancy nuts. I chose to drop out of the whole Beck, Tea Party scene. However, there are letimate complaints about the spending and fiscal direction. So what to do?

re: #29 SixDegrees

This "excuse" is tiresome and pathetic. You don't need unanimity to have one hell of an ugly, loathsome problem.

I'm not excusing anyone. I don't agree with the Hitler analogies, displaying guns in public or any sign that is clearly inappropriate and hurts the cause of fighting against government control over us.

My point is that CBS and friends ONLY see the clowns and try to portray everyone there as idiots.

re: #33 Chekote

My experience at the April 15 Tea Party was that there were a lot of people who were disgusted with both parties and all the spending. But there were also Paulians and cospirancy nuts. I chose to drop out of the whole Beck, Tea Party scene. However, there are letimate complaints about the spending and fiscal direction. So what to do?

My only solution is to 'vote'. But when you have statist solutions on the left and no solutions on the right...well.. I guess I have to join you...

"What to do?"

I am sure that there were lots of people yesterday with perfectly legitimate signs and sentiments who probably never listen to Beck. But is there anyone out there is trying to organize them? No. That's the problem.

Boy, that's some wild stuff.
More wild stuff.

" Afro-Leninism coming to you on a silver platter. Barack Hussein Obama..."

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

No racism there, is there?

re: #32 redshirt

No, it's not an excuse. I am appalled with the far right's disgusting antics, and I reject them.
The left, however excuses their far left antics because deep down they think they are correct, just a bit extreme.

I think far too many on the right feel the same way. Certainly the leadership, which is why we haven't seen any full throated condemnation of any of the loons from the Republicans.

re: #37 solomonpanting

Boy, that's some wild stuff.
More wild stuff.

There's a reason why Glenn Beck is so popular. There's a very direct connection between his rhetoric and the average person attending these protests. This is not a sane movement of concerned citizens.

One of the speakers yesterday, Amy Kremer, National Coordinator of the Tea Party "movement," is the person who saw nothing wrong with circulating a picture of Barack Obama as a witch doctor with a bone through his nose, and pledged to support the creep who did it:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Interesting...

Good luck with that. I don't think they can put the jini back in the bottle.

I think they will be able to, remember the real adults aren't playing right now. They are taking a well deserved break. They'll be back. On the other hand if they are still this crazy in November 2010 I'll be signing up at I or D after.

So we have the 'Well the left did it too!', and we have the 'right is doing it now'.

What solutions can we propose to our congress people that they will actually listen to?

re: #40 Killgore Trout

There's a reason why Glenn Beck is so popular. There's a very direct connection between his rhetoric and the average person attending these protests. This is not a sane movement of concerned citizens.

Is it an insane movement of concerned citizens or a sane movement of unconcerned citizens or an insane movement of unconcerned citizens?

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

re: #45 joegelman

Good, I am glad someone is warning me.

re: #44 solomonpanting

I'd classify it as a goofy collection of poorly informed nuts.

Friggin idiots. You know what the worse part is? It's not that the right will lose another election, but that we will win with these morons at the helm. Racist, antisemitic, gold standard loving, conspiracy nut jobs guiding the Republican ship. THE RNC made a big mistake by not sending Paul the way of Duke.

re: #45 joegelman

He has no need. They keep finding him.

re: #10 Charles

They're right - it was a very angry crowd.

And for good reasons - I can think of nine trillion of 'em off the top of my head.

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

And you seem to be spending all your time ignoring them.

re: #42 Thanos

I think they will be able to, remember the real adults aren't playing right now. They are taking a well deserved break. They'll be back. On the other hand if they are still this crazy in November 2010 I'll be signing up at I or D after.

I'm not voting for Obama in 2012 under any foreseeable circumstances.

However, that does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that I'll automatically vote for whatever idiot the Republicans run against him, either.

Just because the Dems have (pretty much perpetually) lost my vote doesn't mean that the Reps don't have to work to gain it.

/pretty much the same thing I was saying in 2008

re: #41 Charles

One of the speakers yesterday, Amy Kremer, National Coordinator of the Tea Party "movement," is the person who saw nothing wrong with circulating a picture of Barack Obama as a witch doctor with a bone through his nose, and pledged to support the creep who did it:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The witch doctor image was spotted yesterday as well:

"No one on the tea party express seems concerned with the vocal fringe of the crowds that come with offensive signs -- besides Nazi imagery, a poster of Obama as an African witch doctor has become popular -- or the numerous conspiracy theories that float around most tea parties".

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

re: #43 Oh no...Sand People!

So we have the 'Well the left did it too!', and we have the 'right is doing it now'.

What solutions can we propose to our congress people that they will actually listen to?

Great question. The politicos don't take on these elements because they don't see how they can replace them with new voters. At the local level, whenever I say that certain elements need to go in the GOP, I get "who is going to stuff the envelopes?" "Where do we get the votes we will lose by speaking out?" . Again, what to do?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Talk of civil war as necessary or desirable is madness. Talk of it as probable is foolishness squared.

The chance of something of the sort coming to pass in the next century or so is, happily, extremely remote. But we can look to the record of the last time around for some hints as to the likely course of such a war were it to come to pass.

Few on either side of the American civil war thought it would go on as long as it did and be as bloody. Hardly anyone expected it to be a new kind of war, in which the entire strength of the warring society was brought to bear, and almost any measure that might serve to advance victory was deemed legitimate.

America is not the only nation with a martial spirit, but we are such a nation. Once in a war that engages the popular passion, we tend to escalate. We do things we'd never have imagined during peacetime.

Lawrence, Kansas put to the sword, sparing only women and children, and the town fired. Georgia plundered and fired from end to end. The Shenandoah valley stripped so bare that ``a crow would have to carry rations to cross it.'' Battlefields stacked high with bodies. Gatling guns, trenches, wire entanglements, and observation balloons---all military advances, all grim harbingers of world war one.

Our military casualties ran to numbers on a par with all our other wars combined. Factoring into account how few we were then and how many we are now, that number becomes even more sobering.

What would we do to each other in a future war where both sides have nuclear weapons, and knowledge of anthrax, smallpox, and nerve gas?

Who chooses war, either thinks that he has a good chance to win, or that he has no chance at all if things go on as they are. The insurrectionist cause in a hypothetical American civil war would easily win an election if it were strong enough to survive, let alone win, the kind of destructive war it would set off by a resort to arms, assuming it had the strength to make itself more than a mere nuisance to be swatted.

So one has to think that the point of this talk is mostly to grab attention in the present, and vaguely alarm people. What these guys miss, if they aren't wannabe Samsons, is that their own fatuous talk opens the door to legislation that will contain them at the expense of some degree of the liberty that all of us now enjoy.

They should put down whatever it is they've been drinking or smoking, simmer down, and shut up about civil war.

re: #33 Chekote

When thinking "What to do," this may sound incredibly dull and low-key but never underestimate the leverage an individual can have starting at the very bottom in local precincts. This may not be true everywhere, but a lot of local precincts will eagerly seize upon anyone who will show up, express ideas, and agree to participate in the low level dog work. Thing is, if sensible, reasoned defenders of our viewpoints don't show up, then the field is wide open for unchallenged wingnuts of whatever persuasion. I saw it happen - anybody remember Pat Robertson for Prez?

re: #45 joegelman

No. of comments posted: 6
No. of links posted: 335

You seem to spend most of your time pimping your blog on Charles' site.

In Jackson, Michigan, a young man didn't need a sign. He was carrying the real thing: A loaded AK-47 assault rifle and two loaded handguns.

Michigan issues concealed carry permits. It does NOT allow open carry except under very proscribed circumstances, such as hunting.

This idiot should have been charged with brandishing.

re: #48 jayzee

Friggin idiots. You know what the worse part is? It's not that the right will lose another election, but that we will win with these morons at the helm. Racist, antisemitic, gold standard loving, conspiracy nut jobs guiding the Republican ship. THE RNC made a big mistake by not sending Paul the way of Duke.

Yup.

re: #57 Killgore Trout

You seem to spend most of your time pimping your blog on Charles' site.

Not any more.

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I'd classify it as a goofy collection of poorly informed nuts.

Did you see this in the spin-offs?
Frank Schaeffer: Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within
Schaeffer has an axe to grind and I think he overstates the role of this new Christian Dominionist counterculture in the tea parties and protests, but his analysis of that subculture itself is excellent. This has been taking shape for 40 years and there are now millions of people out there who might as well have been raised on a different planet.

Both parties like spending because it gives them power.

My guess is that the majority of the tea party crowd sees taxes coming their way.

The government is fighting debt with debt. The debt that bankrupt homeowners had was transferred to the banks and then the government bailed the banks out. The lack of automobile buying prompted the cash for clunkers program. The prescription drug plan that Bush put through added to future deficits. The extension of unemployment benefits, the acorn money and many other parts of the stimulus package were not job creating stimuli but transference of wealth spending.

The average taxpayer realizes that if their balance sheet was clean before, the massive transference of debt to the government's balance sheet means taxes for them in the future. There is no other way. Well, there is one way and it's equally unpalatable: currency devaluation.

The health plan is just the final straw. There will not be a cost savings, there will be cost transference. Generous employer paid plans will be taxed. Billions will be transferred from Medicare but since it is already in the budget, it is not counted as the cost of this new plan. It just disappears but is actually added to the deficit.

The hedge fund manager who first saw the mortgage bubble, shorted mortgage paper and made $4 billion in 2008 was Jon Paulson and he has been buying gold. There are many that believe massive inflation is coming. I don't subscribe to the gold/inflation theory because I think there is a vast worldwide supply of labor that will hold costs down since labor is the major component of most goods and services.

I do share some of the tea party concern with out of control spending and the transference of benefits and the addition of benefits to those who were the least productive in our society. There are deserving groups, of course, but the trend seems to be to reward anyone who doesn't save enough for retirement, bought too much house, neglects their personal health, and participates in other personal choices that should cause them some discomfort but will not because government has decided to take care of them.

So I have some sympathy but no solutions and I seriously doubt that voting for any other party will solve the spending problem. Governments have a way of growing no matter who is in power. However, if the people can make themselves heard, and vote for the least egregious spenders, then possibly the tide can slowly be turned.

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

And you seem to spend a least some of your time bitching about other people's efforts to promote sanity.

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

Sadly it's not hard.

re: #61 shiplord kirel

Did you see this in the spin-offs?
Frank Schaeffer: Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within
Schaeffer has an axe to grind and I think he overstates the role of this new Christian Dominionist counterculture in the tea parties and protests, but his analysis of that subculture itself is excellent. This has been taking shape for 40 years and there are now millions of people out there who might as well have been raised on a different planet.

He definitely has an axe to grind, true. But don't forget that he was on the inside of the Dominionist cult for many years; he may be exaggerating, or he may not.

re: #56 yael

I agree. But it is very hard to motivate "middle of the road" voters to get politically active. Most tune in at the last minute and vote. The Paulians have passion.

re: #63 Locker

And you seem to spend a least some of your time bitching about other people's efforts to promote sanity.

And the rest of his time using my website to pimp his blog, which he won't be doing any more.

re: #50 PSGInfinity

And for good reasons - I can think of nine trillion of 'em off the top of my head.

And not one of them is reason enough to join with the idiots running these things. Sorry. I am kind of horrified by Obama and Pelosi and Reed's platforms. I am terrified by the presidents entirely inept foreign policy. BUT join this movement? Not a shot and I will not vote for anyone that warmly embraces the likes of Paul.

Someone pointed out the other day that 8 years of left wing lunacy, i.e code pink, bushitler, bush lied people died, and all that other insanity resulted in what we have now. The left in complete control of the presidency, house, and senate.
I really don't know how to respond to that. Other than I hope we don't have to reply in kind to win back power.
Not a big fan of Pyrrhic victories.

Frankly, I am surprised that Beck didn't go to DC. He created this whole 9/12 thing and them either break down crying or doesn't show. They guy just isn't stable.

re: #43 Oh no...Sand People!

So we have the 'Well the left did it too!', and we have the 'right is doing it now'.

What solutions can we propose to our congress people that they will actually listen to?

My personal experience is that our congress people don't listen to either side. They listen to their personal special interests and perhaps persistent, negative media attention. Not that this surprises me, they answer to the money that got them elected. Supremes could be making it even worse if they overturn the corporate/union money rules they are considering now.

re: #69 redshirt

Someone pointed out the other day that 8 years of left wing lunacy, i.e code pink, bushitler, bush lied people died, and all that other insanity resulted in what we have now. The left in complete control of the presidency, house, and senate.

That claim is complete crap. The Democrats only started winning when Howard Dean deliberately shoved the morons aside.

People promoting this BS claim are simply trying to make excuses for behaving the same way.

re: #61 shiplord kirel

Thanks, reading now...

re: #70 Chekote

Frankly, I am surprised that Beck didn't go to DC. He created this whole 9/12 thing and them either break down crying or doesn't show. They guy just isn't stable.

But he did hint on his special that he kinda agreed with the guy who said we brought 9-11 on ourselves by getting into everyone's business. To paraphrase, he said that he (Beck) was becoming increasingly libertarian and that we should mind our own business. He did hedge however, saying that if hit we should hit back hard.

re: #55 lostlakehiker

You totally misunderstand the situation - we've been engaged in a cold civil war since 1968. Warm, actually, for the first few years, but ongoing. The overt Civil War talk is a byproduct of Obama and the evil Utopians (aka Leftists) making an existential attack upon America.

I'm on record, BTW, as believing this could end up with several dozen - or several dozen million - dead. No idea which. Hope the warm-hearted-but-woolly-headed Liberals come to their senses and blackball the left. The next few years will tell the tale.

I'm currently traveling through Europe for another few weeks. I can tell you that people here just don't understand how America doesn't have health care coverage for all citizens.

It's interesting. I never thought that simple health care coverage for everyone would produce this much insane hatred and irrationality among half the country. Talk about blowing things out of proportion.

I think these people are truly insane to equate health care coverage for everyone with death camps and forced sterilization. I'd have to ask them if they think that death camps exist in France, England, Belgium, Canada, and every other Western nation where they have national health care. I wonder what their answer would really be? Is this what they honestly believe?

re: #72 Charles

That claim is complete crap. The Democrats only started winning when Howard Dean deliberately shoved the morons aside.

People promoting this BS claim are simply trying to make excuses for behaving the same way.

Well that's not why I repeated it.
I am very disappointed to see the right descend to the same level.
Was I foolish to expect better, perhaps.
If Eric Cartman was correct, and 25% of the nation is retarded, than how can any party afford not to cater to them when the votes of the nutroots is the difference between victory or defeat?
Reason seems to be a losing strategy, unfortunately.

re: #71 Locker

My personal experience is that our congress people don't listen to either side. They listen to their personal special interests and perhaps persistent, negative media attention. Not that this surprises me, they answer to the money that got them elected. Supremes could be making it even worse if they overturn the corporate/union money rules they are considering now.

So basically I have no one in this fight. Hooray...so does that mean I don't have to pay taxes?

/I wish...

re: #72 Charles

That claim is complete crap. The Democrats only started winning when Howard Dean deliberately shoved the morons aside.

People promoting this BS claim are simply trying to make excuses for behaving the same way.

I am not sure I entirely agree. I think that the Bush hatred really did take hold and got a lot of play. True that moderate Dems won, but that was after the hard selling was done. I am not sure we can discount the impact that the Bush hatred had on the elections. That being said, it is not really relevant what/why the dems won. Even if the radicals won the day, doesn't mean we should emulate that. I seem to recall hearing about two wrongs not making a right somewhere.

re: #76 Summer

But we have health care for all. Anyone who shows up at the hospital is not turned away. Doctors don't turn away sick people. The argument is about cost and who pays the bills. It about what insurance covers and doesn't.

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

He found one right here.

re: #27 karmic_inquisitor

Well Spellman may not be a Commie, but he certainly isn't a patriot.

Patriots these days talk about staging a revolution, civil war, or The South seceding.

/

I'm sure that argument is being used without the / tag right now.

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

What can I say? It's his blog. Like many of us, he goes on jags, focusing on one thing or another. So he's on a 'crazy Americans' jag - it'll likely pass.

Now here's the scary question: What craziness comes along to cause Charles to go on *that* jag?

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Interesting...

Good luck with that. I don't think they can put the jini back in the bottle.

Neither can I, nor do I expect anyone to try, till it's too late

re: #61 shiplord kirel

Did you see this in the spin-offs?
Frank Schaeffer: Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within

It's a very interesting article, and a lot of it rings true.

Notice that the first comment posted there is from a religious fanatic.

re: #65 Charles

He definitely has an axe to grind, true. But don't forget that he was on the inside of the Dominionist cult for many years; he may be exaggerating, or he may not.

There's no doubt at all they're heavily involved, and more so among the crazier elements. Dick Armey and a gang of cynical lobbyists are the driving force but the whacko religious counterculture seems to provide the ideological Krazy-Glue that holds it all together.

re: #68 jayzee

And not one of them is reason enough to join with the idiots running these things. Sorry. I am kind of horrified by Obama and Pelosi and Reed's platforms. I am terrified by the presidents entirely inept foreign policy. BUT join this movement? Not a shot and I will not vote for anyone that warmly embraces the likes of Paul.

Thanks for the response. Now here's another scary thought - suppose we look back in 2020 and realize that Ron Paul was canary in the coalmine?

re: #66 Chekote

Very true, but the people who came in to the local party apparatus with their agenda and more or less took it over weren't last minute middle of the roaders, for the most part they were dedicated single issue advocates and by the time the sleepy establishment woke up it was all settled. My suggestion is that those of us who want to see common sense and rational ideas prevail have to be there to state our case when it matters, not concede to the opposition by default. It may not succeed (I have been down that road several times) but that is better than sitting back and deploring the outcome.

re: #52 JamesTKirk

My sentiments, exactly!

re: #77 redshirt

If Eric Cartman was correct, and 25% of the nation is retarded, than how can any party afford not to cater to them when the votes of the nutroots is the difference between victory or defeat?
Reason seems to be a losing strategy, unfortunately.

No party needs to cater to the lunatic fringe. They craft messages and platforms that anybody, including the nuts, can support. If the nut vote is needed for issue X, then a party does not need to give them sweet talk on issue Y for their vote on X.

It's just not relevant. But worse, lots in the lever pulling heirarchy of the party are nuts.

re: #69 redshirt

Someone pointed out the other day that 8 years of left wing lunacy, i.e code pink, bushitler, bush lied people died, and all that other insanity resulted in what we have now. The left in complete control of the presidency, house, and senate.
I really don't know how to respond to that. Other than I hope we don't have to reply in kind to win back power.
Not a big fan of Pyrrhic victories.

If you truly think that is what won the Dems Congress and the Whitehouse, then you're not likely to win it back.

re: #87 PSGInfinity

Thanks for the response. Now here's another scary thought - suppose we look back in 2020 and realize that Ron Paul was canary in the coalmine?

Which coal mine? The anti Israel coal mine? The neo nazi hugging coal mine? The fed is a jewish conspiracy coal mine? I'm confused.
There are a lot of canaries and what this pres and congress wants to do is very dangerous. Ironically on some of their more frightening platforms (a la foreign policy) they and Paul appear to be kindred spirits. *SHIVER*

re: #67 Charles

And the rest of his time using my website to pimp his blog, which he won't be doing any more.

I see that a LOT here to be honest. I'll suck up 10 down dings for a few links to actual news sites while the green dings fly for the self blog promoters. Some of which obviously jack their own click number, it will show up and 3 seconds later it's got 25 clicks.

Probably an effective strategy, piggy backing off you to get some traffic. Probably not a good idea to piss off the host you are riding on since it's not in your own best interest.

re: #24 JamesTKirk

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that now. I was referring to the inconsistent reporting by the MSM.

It's the medias fault again!
We can not do over the way the media treated Bush.
That does not mean the protests are being misrepresented.
One can justify or rationalize or whatever, but this is what is happening now, and in reality it has nothing to do with the previous administration.

And frankly, the Waaa excuses are getting really old.

re: #91 Coracle

If you truly think that is what won the Dems Congress and the Whitehouse, then you're not likely to win it back.

No-I think that many, tainted by the anti Bush rhetoric, voted for "moderate" dems, but got a very left wing government instead. That disillusionment will win it back, of course if the current cadre of morons running the tea parties are in charge, then who really cares?

re: #45 joegelman

Charles Johnson seems to be spending almost all of his time looking for crazy people

LGF is an equal opoortunity sacred cow skewerer and ox gorer, without fear of favor, regardless of the flak.

That's what it means to be an anti-idiotarian blog.

Rebuttal:

powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/09/024511.php

re: #69 redshirt

Someone pointed out the other day that 8 years of left wing lunacy, i.e code pink, bushitler, bush lied people died, and all that other insanity resulted in what we have now. The left in complete control of the presidency, house, and senate.
I really don't know how to respond to that. Other than I hope we don't have to reply in kind to win back power.
Not a big fan of Pyrrhic victories.

Just because things happen in chronological order doesn't mean there is a cause an effect relationship. IMO those things have NOTHING to do with why the left has control. It wasn't those people or their influence that caused the Dem victory it was the middle sliding and the right staying home.

I won't use this as an opportunity to bash the Bush/Cheney years but you know how people are right? They are never satisfied and they love to complain and point out the faults of others. It will swing back the other way with or without the fringe. Identifying them and taking a moderate position among your own folks seems to be the proper way to handle them.

re: #88 yael

That's what I am trying to do. Now I just pick up the phone and complain.

re: #78 Oh no...Sand People!

So basically I have no one in this fight. Hooray...so does that mean I don't have to pay taxes?

/I wish...

It's hard to resist evangelizing at this point but... there are politicians who fight to change this situation. Personally things like the McCain-Feingold Act catch my attention and get my support. Their basic argument being to increase the focus on issues and reduce the focus on politics and corporate/union pandering.

These are the leadership activities that I respect.

Any chance Beck will cool the rhetoric on his own, or with some pressure from Fox ? Lots of basically patriotic Americans are buying his and the others propaganda and I genuinely fear for their country after buying the BS.
My worst fear is one "patriot" will take action to save the union with a violent act. I truly fear we are getting close. If Beck keeps fanning the flames, it can only get worse. I don't even want to imagine what would happen to our country if the haters actually "water the tree of liberty" I'll watch Beck tomorrow to see if he comments on the crazies, and perhaps backs off a bit.

re: #92 jayzee

Which coal mine? The anti Israel coal mine? The neo nazi hugging coal mine? The fed is a jewish conspiracy coal mine? I'm confused.
There are a lot of canaries and what this pres and congress wants to do is very dangerous. Ironically on some of their more frightening platforms (a la foreign policy) they and Paul appear to be kindred spirits. *SHIVER*

True dat. I was thinking more of the economic, rather than the anti-social side of Ron Paul. Sorry I didn't make that clearer...

re: #101 avanti

Any chance Beck will cool the rhetoric on his own, or with some pressure from Fox ? Lots of basically patriotic Americans are buying his and the others propaganda and I genuinely fear for their country after buying the BS.
My worst fear is one "patriot" will take action to save the union with a violent act. I truly fear we are getting close. If Beck keeps fanning the flames, it can only get worse. I don't even want to imagine what would happen to our country if the haters actually "water the tree of liberty" I'll watch Beck tomorrow to see if he comments on the crazies, and perhaps backs off a bit.

I think Beck is a showman who will respond when reined. If he has to cool it down a bit to stay on the air, he will. If keeping it hot keeps him on the air, he'll do that.

re: #97 looking closely

That article would have been more effective if they had said that even ONE racist, Hitler comparing sign is unacceptable. Let's say Powerline is right that the vast majority of the people attending the rally were sincere, concerned Americans, why not point out that the elements Charles is focusing on tar the whole movement?

re: #103 Locker

I think Beck is a showman who will respond when reined. If he has to cool it down a bit to stay on the air, he will. If keeping it hot keeps him on the air, he'll do that.

I'm not suggesting anyone should be pulled off the air, I'm a big free speech advocate, but perhaps some "fair and balanced counterpoint " from another Fox guy. It's hard for me to believe that there are not some real journalists at Fox that could speak out about some of the outright lies that confuse the base. i.e., death panels, and the like.

re: #69 redshirt

Someone pointed out the other day that 8 years of left wing lunacy, i.e code pink, bushitler, bush lied people died, and all that other insanity resulted in what we have now. The left in complete control of the presidency, house, and senate.
I really don't know how to respond to that. Other than I hope we don't have to reply in kind to win back power.
Not a big fan of Pyrrhic victories.

And I mentioned the other day that perhaps, just perhaps, it was not just "left wing lunacy" that won the WH and Congress.
Maybe, just maybe, centrists and moderates were tried of the way the country was being run and voted them out, and the Democrats in.
That maybe the previous administration did not do a good enough job in the eyes of enough people to warrant another term, or the majority status.

There seems to be this assumption that the only way the Dems won was by the collusion of the media, along with institutional vote fraud from ACORN and (not mentioned during the campaign BTW, but they seem now to be the new bugaboo) SEIU.
Those and the evil leftist that somehow did an end run around the real result, another Republican president, and congress.

I think this is at the center of the problem and it's clear that even sane people have a sour grape core that allows them to believe that the rest of the people did not toss their side out for legitimate reasons, but that "we was robbed".
It pervades many, many discussions even on this board.
And it leads to justification and equivocation over things that should be very straight forward.

re: #98 Locker

Just because things happen in chronological order doesn't mean there is a cause an effect relationship. IMO those things have NOTHING to do with why the left has control. It wasn't those people or their influence that caused the Dem victory it was the middle sliding and the right staying home.

I won't use this as an opportunity to bash the Bush/Cheney years but you know how people are right? They are never satisfied and they love to complain and point out the faults of others. It will swing back the other way with or without the fringe. Identifying them and taking a moderate position among your own folks seems to be the proper way to handle them.

Get out of my head!
I just posted something similar.

re: #105 avanti

I'm not suggesting anyone should be pulled off the air, I'm a big free speech advocate, but perhaps some "fair and balanced counterpoint " from another Fox guy. It's hard for me to believe that there are not some real journalists at Fox that could speak out about some of the outright lies that confuse the base. i.e., death panels, and the like.

I find Beck to be insane and repulsive, but I don't think forcibly shoehorning a 'fairness doctrine guy' onto his show is a reasonable response to his twisted lunacy. I'd hate to see every political show on TV be coercively morphed into a clone of Crossfire.

re: #100 Locker

It's hard to resist evangelizing at this point but... there are politicians who fight to change this situation. Personally things like the McCain-Feingold Act catch my attention and get my support. Their basic argument being to increase the focus on issues and reduce the focus on politics and corporate/union pandering.

These are the leadership activities that I respect.

Yeah...please resist.

McCain-Feingold?

*Facepalm*

I would love to do my best to persuade you why that is complete shite..but I have to make a phone call...who needs free speech before a vote anyway...

McCain-Feingold made a bigger mess but weakening the influence of political parties and strengthening third party groups. I would prefer immediate disclosure so that I can make up my own mind whether a politicians is being bought.

re: #110 doubter4444

I will take neither. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Still, Powerline should have said that even ONE racist sign is unacceptable. And conspiracy theorists tar the whole movement that has legitimate complaints.

re: #110 doubter4444

I'll take CNN over Powerline

The most busted name in news. Gotcha...

re: #112 Chekote

I will take neither. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Still, Powerline should have said that even ONE racist sign is unacceptable. And conspiracy theorists tar the whole movement that has legitimate complaints.

Fair enough.

To all those thinking that it was the far left that tainted the election of Republicans and it was all someone's fault, please read this:
Census on the Bush Years

It's pretty sobering. And I think it kills the idea that Obama, snuck into office because of bad press.

re: #113 PSGInfinity

The most busted name in news. Gotcha...

Over one of the most partisan blogs running?
Yes, yes I will.

re: #112 Chekote

[SNIP] Still, Powerline's should have said that even ONE racist sign is unacceptable ignoring fringe sign is a healthy sign of balance, perspective and maturity. [SNIP]

There. FTFY! :)

re: #114 doubter4444

You know what they say about statistics?

re: #115 doubter4444

[I prefer a blatantly dishonest actor o]ver one of the most [honestly] partisan blogs running?
Yes, yes I will.

Your choice...

re: #117 gulfloafer

You know what they say about statistics?

I do, and I also know what they say about ostriches and sand.

re: #105 avanti

I'm not suggesting anyone should be pulled off the air, I'm a big free speech advocate, but perhaps some "fair and balanced counterpoint " from another Fox guy. It's hard for me to believe that there are not some real journalists at Fox that could speak out about some of the outright lies that confuse the base. i.e., death panels, and the like.

I don't think Fox News is in the news business, they are in the entertainment and advertising business. It's easy for me to believe that anything, including real news, that messes with the business would be suppressed or stamped out.

re: #97 looking closely

Rebuttal:

powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/09/024511.php

Powerline is completely full of crap. There were many, many signs at the demonstration that used Nazi imagery.

Probably hundreds, if not thousands.

re: #120 Locker

I don't think Fox News is in the news business, they are in the entertainment and advertising business. It's easy for me to believe that anything, including real news, that messes with the business would be suppressed or stamped out.

This goes for most TV News Media in my opinion with PBS being the only notable exception.

re: #109 Oh no...Sand People!

Yeah...please resist.

McCain-Feingold?

*Facepalm*

I would love to do my best to persuade you why that is complete shite..but I have to make a phone call...who needs free speech before a vote anyway...

Yea I don't think money is free speech. I'm guessing you disagree with that point.

re: #111 Chekote

McCain-Feingold made a bigger mess but weakening the influence of political parties and strengthening third party groups. I would prefer immediate disclosure so that I can make up my own mind whether a politicians is being bought.

The example was used to demonstrate cooperation and leadership in attempting to improve things. McCain and Feingold worked together in an effort to reduce money and corporate influence. Nothing is perfect and everyone has beefs but we were talking about resisting the money influence and looking for any leadership in that area.

re: #121 Charles

Powerline is completely full of crap. There were many, many signs at the demonstration that used Nazi imagery. Probably hundreds, if not thousands.

Not buying it, unless there's an actual census of signs. I've been listening to unfair, made-up accusations of racism for decades and I'm done with it.

Census of all the signs or it didn't happen.

re: #29 SixDegrees

Do wing-nuts show up at these events? Yes.
Was everyone there 'angry?' No.

This "excuse" is tiresome and pathetic. You don't need unanimity to have one hell of an ugly, loathsome problem.

What Six Degrees said.

And to those who object that the Tea Party movement has some good points, too, I'd add:

So what if the anti-tax sentiment is vaguely appealing? The fact remains that in a political movement that's only a few months old, the ugly loathesome elements have already managed to become incredibly visible. So given the newness of the Tea Party phenomenon, maybe it's best just to strangle this mutant baby in its cradle -- or at the very least, run the fuck away -- rather than waste time hoping that it'll turn out okay when it gets a little older.

Of course, I'm speaking as a homo (yes for reals!) who has often supported the Republicans despite the known fact that the national GOP sometimes panders to very homophobic elements. The obvious difference, of course, is that for better or worse, the GOP is one side of a two-party political system that has defined American politics for generations. Which means that we often have to be pragmatic, hold our noses, and pick either the donkeys or the elephants. But in the case of the Tea Party movement, there's no reason one should feel obliged to accept it warts and all.

re: #125 PSGInfinity

Not buying it, unless there's an actual census of signs. I've been listening to unfair, made-up accusations of racism for decades and I'm done with it.

Census of all the signs or it didn't happen.

That last bit is sarcasm, right?

re: #127 doubter4444

That last bit is sarcasm, right?

Nope. No sarcasm at all. Well, maybe a little. Remember, the MSM has been tarring us for at least forty years (and probably a lot farther back than that). Extreme signs, such as the "We're unarmed - for now" can be found. It's the ratio that's the thing. Takes maturity and perspective to accept that - and remember, liberals specifically *lack* either, at least in matters religious political.

re: #124 Locker

Chekote makes a good point. Trying to keep the influence of money out of politics is a bit like trying to keep water from seeking its own level - no matter what kind of plumbing you construct, eventually it will spring a leak somewhere. So long as government decisions can make or break an industry financially, there will be people looking for leverage with money. And don't disregard the influence of in-kind leverage such as union support. Immediate full disclosure would let every interested voter know who's paying whom and for what.

re: #98 Locker

Just because things happen in chronological order doesn't mean there is a cause an effect relationship. IMO those things have NOTHING to do with why the left has control. It wasn't those people or their influence that caused the Dem victory it was the middle sliding and the right staying home.

I won't use this as an opportunity to bash the Bush/Cheney years but you know how people are right? They are never satisfied and they love to complain and point out the faults of others. It will swing back the other way with or without the fringe. Identifying them and taking a moderate position among your own folks seems to be the proper way to handle them.

Exactly, and I did not post the link to the Census to bash Bush either.
I posted to try show that saying there some cabal influenced things is willfully ignoring reality. Things will swing back without the nonsense going on now.
I think this country is a lot tougher than many tea-baggers, I guess.
4 or even 8 years of any administration won't bring down the country, and those who think so do not speak for me.

re: #128 PSGInfinity

Nope. No sarcasm at all. Well, maybe a little. Remember, the MSM has been tarring us for at least forty years (and probably a lot farther back than that). Extreme signs, such as the "We're unarmed - for now" can be found. It's the ratio that's the thing. Takes maturity and perspective to accept that - and remember, liberals specifically *lack* either, at least in matters religious political.

Wow. So, who is us?
And "At least 40 years..." so Vietnam was lost because of the liberal media?
And Watergate was media hype to get Nixon?
And McCarthy was "tried in the media"?
Was Father Coughlin smeared too?

I'm a little over 50, so I remember a bit back in the late 60's and 70's, and I don't recall it was you remember it.

re: #131 doubter4444

..." so Vietnam was lost because of the liberal media?

Between the reporting on the Tet Offensive and Walter Cronkite, there is a line of thought to help support that contention.

It's 2009:

Humanoid robotics simulate the cognitive development of a human child.

In other news: Droves of Americans still angry over the election of a black man.

The Tea Party doesn't have a "fringe element" it's racism is mainstream. In my experience, some of the most racist people don't recognize themselves as racist - They're nationalists, patriots, traditionalists, but not racists.

It's sad.

re: #132 solomonpanting

Between the reporting on the Tet Offensive and Walter Cronkite, there is a line of thought to help support that contention.

True, but mostly by people who steadfastly refuse to look at the entire war and see what should of been done, what could have been done, and what, by the time the country really turned on the war, could not be undone.
Again, they blame it instead on "the media" not on incompetence, an unready command staff for the type of war they faced, entrenched political divisions that stopped accurate accounting on actual progress being made, and wishful thinking inside the beltway.
But it's Cronkite's fault.
Do you remember that period?
I do, and I remember my Father (a WWII vet) so angry at the whole mess, and my older sisters friends getting drafted.
There is a lot of blame to go around, but to think it's all the "liberal medias" fault, is a fallacy.

re: #24 JamesTKirk

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that now. I was referring to the inconsistent reporting by the MSM.

It's not inconsistent. The freaks on the left existed, but they were never anything but fringe. The nastiness and ugliness bubbling up from the right is far more mainstreamed, far more widespread, than the left ever was. You've got GOP leadership fuelling it, too. 10 GOP Congressmen helping to mainstream nirtherism by sponsoring a bill about birth certificates.

The MSM is reporting on the right because it is far more disturbing than what happened on the left. That is just a fact. People may not like it, but it is.

Zombie and I had a bit of a spat here over her last post involving pictures of left protests and her wholly unsupported assertion that the USSS took threats against Bush less seriously than they did Obama, and that the MSM covered up or failed to report on the left.

I don't wish to rehash the whole argument here, but I pointed out that in her own post, there were 3 different pictures of the same guy at 3 different rallies.

She apparently thought I was insinuating something about her using Photoshop -- not at all. My point was that she had 3 pictures of the same guy, at 3 different times, because it was only ever a hardcore very fringe very tiny element on the left that did those things, and her own photos proved it.

In any case, regardless of what one chooses to believe about how bad the left was under Bush, that shouldn't stop anyone from condemning what's going on in the right at the moment.

/in bed
Added for James T Kirk's benefit. ;)

So apparently from all this, they are recycling all the images and tactics used in Anti Bush protests.

Is that what we are going with?

Have we decided who are we to be offended by first and most...?

The Leftist *sshats or the Rightwinger *sshats?

re: #136 bricko

So apparently from all this, they are recycling all the images and tactics used in Anti Bush protests.

Is that what we are going with?

Have we decided who are we to be offended by first and most...?

The Leftist *sshats or the Rightwinger *sshats?

Uh, no. There isn't a legitimate comparison to be made. The people who believed Bush secretly wanted to destroy the country were very few. And there was no widespread movement for people to carry weapons at anti-war protests. Trying to claim this is just what the left did is revisionism, and I can't help seeing it as an attempt to excuse or minimise what's happening on the right at the moment.

re: #135 iceweasel

The freaks on the left existed, but they were never anything but fringe.

Anyone who has read LGF for any amount of time can recognize that for the lie that it is.

The people who played to the truthers with insinuations that Bush caused, or at least deliberately failed to prevent, 9/11 were not "fringe". The people who frequently compared Bush to Hitler were not "fringe". They included former presidential candidates, members of Congress, and other higher-ups in the Democratic party.

Claiming that the leftist kooks were but a fringe is just as dishonest as those who claim the same about the rightist kooks. The ones carrying the signs might be random kooks, but in both cases they were encouraged and pandered to by irresponsible people in high places.

re: #138 JamesTKirk

Anyone who has read LGF for any amount of time can recognize that for the lie that it is.

The people who played to the truthers with insinuations that Bush caused, or at least deliberately failed to prevent, 9/11 were not "fringe". The people who frequently compared Bush to Hitler were not "fringe". They included former presidential candidates, members of Congress, and other higher-ups in the Democratic party.

Claiming that the leftist kooks were but a fringe is just as dishonest as those who claim the same about the rightist kooks. The ones carrying the signs might be random kooks, but in both cases they were encouraged and pandered to by irresponsible people in high places.

I have to disagree, for the reasons I gave. The crazy on the right is being mainstreamed in a way that the crazy on the left never was.
And no one elected ever played to the truthers. There is a difference between thinking that bush had advance warning of the attacks, because he received a memo on Aug 6 entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside US"-- and believing that he knew about or planned or assisted the specific attacks.
The first is true, and a legitimate reason for a 9-11 commission about our intelligence failures.
The second is sheer lunacy.

re: #79 jayzee

I am not sure I entirely agree. I think that the Bush hatred really did take hold and got a lot of play. True that moderate Dems won, but that was after the hard selling was done. I am not sure we can discount the impact that the Bush hatred had on the elections. That being said, it is not really relevant what/why the dems won. Even if the radicals won the day, doesn't mean we should emulate that. I seem to recall hearing about two wrongs not making a right somewhere.

criticisms must be based in reality. None of the criticism you hear from these tea partiers and Glenn Beck zombies has any basis in reality.

Yes it is being (Mainstreamed) . Guess who is mainstraming it...perhaps the Mainstream Media. They would not dare show these same signs from the Left. Did you see coverage of the Moveon and Pinkers with the BushHitler signs and burning effigies.

We saw coverage of the moveon antiwar protests...but not the nasty signs in the MSM reports.

The Leftwing media have picked up on the right fringe so they can run down the T party groups. I dont recall Don Lemon on CNN worrying about how unfair it was to Bush to have the protests.

re: #138 JamesTKirk

Anyone who has read LGF for any amount of time can recognize that for the lie that it is.

The people who played to the truthers with insinuations that Bush caused, or at least deliberately failed to prevent, 9/11 were not "fringe". The people who frequently compared Bush to Hitler were not "fringe". They included former presidential candidates, members of Congress, and other higher-ups in the Democratic party.

Claiming that the leftist kooks were but a fringe is just as dishonest as those who claim the same about the rightist kooks. The ones carrying the signs might be random kooks, but in both cases they were encouraged and pandered to by irresponsible people in high places.

it's a scary trend in American politics. The difference I see is that the left never had a voice in the media like FOX news or Hannity or Glenn Beck that not only encourages this kind of rhetoric but participates in it.

The lefts fringe was irresponsibly encouraged by some higher ups but the rights fringe is becoming part of the conservative narrative.

re: #141 bricko

Yes it is being (Mainstreamed) . Guess who is mainstraming it...perhaps the Mainstream Media. They would not dare show these same signs from the Left. Did you see coverage of the Moveon and Pinkers with the BushHitler signs and burning effigies.

We saw coverage of the moveon antiwar protests...but not the nasty signs in the MSM reports.

The Leftwing media have picked up on the right fringe so they can run down the T party groups. I dont recall Don Lemon on CNN worrying about how unfair it was to Bush to have the protests.

so you don't think the media should cover the tea parties?

That claim is complete crap. The Democrats only started winning when Howard Dean deliberately shoved the morons aside.

People promoting this BS claim are simply trying to make excuses for behaving the same way.

Exactly, even KOS tried to filter out the Truthers and other assorted lunatics.

Dean showed how to build a national party, or closer to the truth, how to build a destroyed party. Do we ignore what Dean did because he's a liberal? If conservatives do, they do at their own peril.

re: #144 harry91

Exactly, even KOS tried to filter out the Truthers and other assorted lunatics.

Dean showed how to build a national party, or closer to the truth, how to build a destroyed party. Do we ignore what Dean did because he's a liberal? If conservatives do, they do at their own peril.

maybe redstate should learn something from kos.

it's complete lunacy over at redstate. Then again I don't think the owner of that blog has ever been grounded in reality

They will not though, they get more hits with "the crazy"

Erick Erickson is a joke.

I really feel for Jim Spellman. When the anchor asks him about the darker current out in the crowds, you can tell he is really struggling with the catalog of insanity. That guy, Spellman, is due a Hell of a vacation.

re: #131 doubter4444

And "At least 40 years..." so Vietnam was lost because of the liberal media?

Absolutely. I think that the only people who argue this pint is the street hippies and the University hippies who were covered by the media, in a bit of hairsplitting over who gets the credit.
In fact, after our abrupt withdrawal from Vietnam, and the slaughter of millions in that area which inevitably followed, as predicted at the time, there was an additional ill effect.
The Pentagon was so unwilling to embrace anything from Vietnam, even the lessons learned, that we went to war in Iraq with a quaint and pathetic system for dealing with an insurgency. Insurgency, counter-insurgency, MOOTW; all had become poison that the Pentagon had been suddenly and painfully conditioned to avoid. The very real and legitimate pressures of the Cold War, combined with the sexiness of Cold War strategy, hardware, and operations, made the Cold War far more rewarding and interesting a topic for everybody involved, personally and professionally. People who spoke about counterinsurgency weren't heard from again. For thirty years, Vietnam was our most unlearned lesson, despite all of the political and policy hand-wringing which ensued.
So in a very real sense, you could say that the media lost us a few years in Iraq, although in equal measure with bureaucratic processes in the government and the military. Let's just don't forget where that shrieking horror at battling an insurgency came from.

General Petraeus, Col Nagl and others have since set things right, with the publication of FM 3-24 [CAUTION--this link will download a huge pdf]. It is a work of genius, in that it combines a lot of hard work with a lot of other hard work, which will nonetheless need to be revised fairly soon, as that is the nature of these things--it's hard work.

re: #148 haakondahl

So in a very real sense, you could say that the media lost us a few years in Iraq, although in equal measure with bureaucratic processes in the government and the military. Let's just don't forget where that shrieking horror at battling an insurgency came from.

General Petraeus, Col Nagl and others have since set things right, with the publication of FM 3-24 [CAUTION--this link will download a huge pdf]. It is a work of genius, in that it combines a lot of hard work with a lot of other hard work, which will nonetheless need to be revised fairly soon, as that is the nature of these things--it's hard work.

oh, puh-leeze!!

It wasn't the media's fault that the CiC and SecDef chose to put ideology over competence and ignore everything Colin Powell tried to tell them about how to operate in the region. It wasn't the media's fault that ten years of State Department planning was disregarded and a bunch of ignorant ideologues put in charge. It wasn't the media's fault that those choosing civilian administrators to send over asked applicants questions like "where do you stand on Roe v. Wade?" instead of "Do you speak Arabic? Do you have any experience with central banking or municipal planning?"

Things started to turn around the day Rumsfeld was let go and Gates brought in; Gates is a grownup, a professional, and it wasn't until Bush started listening to him instead of Rummy that other professionals could be put in place.