Pat Buchanan Promotes 9/11 ‘Truth’

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Now featured at the official website of Pat Buchanan: a bizarre screed reposted from the racist site VDARE, by paleocon wacko Paul Craig Roberts, promoting the 9/11 Truth movement: Why Propaganda Trumps Truth « Patrick J. Buchanan – Official Website.

Yes, really. This is how bad it’s getting. A man who appears frequently on television representing the “conservative” viewpoint, a man who Sean Hannity has called “the great Patrick J. Buchanan,” is promoting Trutherism.

Will the people who screamed for Van Jones’ resignation based on unsubstantiated accusations that he was a Truther now scream just as loud about Pat Buchanan?

Not a chance.

(Hat tip: Adam Holland.)

Also see
Holocaust Denial at Pat Buchanan’s Official Website

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298 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:42:29pm

So fucking tired of this shit

2 mikalm  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:42:58pm

As you said months ago -- there's a bad craziness loose in this land.

3 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:43:28pm

Great...maybe Charlie Sheen can have Buchanan do a guest appearence on a very special 2 and a Half Men...

4 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:43:29pm

Somehow, I think Pat "Pitchfork" Buchanan still has yet to hit bottom. The man associates with fascists in Europe, racists in America, and now is promoting Trooferism. Yet, somehow, I think he can still reach lower.

5 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:43:45pm

I hate paleo-con truthers.

6 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:44:13pm

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So fucking tired of this shit

As am I, but we're just at the beginning of this shit, I fear.

7 Coracle  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:44:31pm

OMG - even worse, this means he's ideologically hobnobbing with Van Jones now!

I don't even know if "/" is appropriate. It's so hard to interpret all the ways the craziness intersects.

8 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:45:28pm

Oh brother.

Just... oh brother.

9 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:45:32pm

That guy is a full-on, full-bore truther. Unbelievable. Here's some of his biographical info at the bottom of the article:

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury during President Reagan’s first term. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal. He has held numerous academic appointments, including the William E. Simon Chair, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Georgetown University, and Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He was awarded the Legion of Honor by French President Francois Mitterrand.

I have to go pick my jaw up from the floor now.

10 middy  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:46:22pm
The researchers explain why so many Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, years after it has become obvious that Iraq had nothing to do with the event.

Huh?

I've never met anyone who thought that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.

11 Athos  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:46:43pm

Pat is nothing but stupid stuck on even more stupid.

The shame is that so many conservatives and people who should know better give this PoS the attention and airtime he gets.

12 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:46:52pm

re: #9 reine.de.tout

As we've seen before with other folks, no matter how educated they are, they can be extremely stupid and boorish.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:47:31pm
Not a chance.

That's the polite way to put it.

14 Dainn  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:47:33pm

It still boggles the mind that this guy gets air time anywhere but MSNBC.

Pat is the brand mascot for "wacko conservative."

15 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:47:36pm

re: #9 reine.de.tout

I have, at a bar while I was trying to enjoy my beloved Newcastle Brown Ale. I got up and just walked away.

16 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:47:58pm

I knew it! I was waiting for the last mask to fall. It was only a matter of time.

Patrick J. Buchanan, Official America hater and all-around douchebag.

He'll be calling for perp walks for the Jooo Money Changers in the Federal Reserve Temple in 4, 3, 2...

17 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:48:26pm

re: #14 Dainn

It still boggles the mind that this guy gets air time anywhere but MSNBC.

Pat is the brand mascot for "wacko conservative."

He's on Fox News frequently too.

18 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:48:30pm

re: #15 Equable

I have, at a bar while I was trying to enjoy my beloved Newcastle Brown Ale. I got up and just walked away.

Were you responding to my #9, or to #10?

19 Lee Coller  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:48:30pm

Maybe this will wake people up. Then again, I'm not holding my breath.

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:48:48pm

The gubment can't keep the tactics we use to track terrorist money out of the NYT, but they can pull off a 9/11? Fucking idiots.

21 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:48:54pm

Interesting tidbit from the sidebar of Buchanan's site...

Media Links

* Chronicles Magazine
* Human Events
* Joe Sobran
* Lew Rockwell
* Lou Dobbs
* Matt Drudge
* Paul Craig Roberts
* Taki’s Mag
* VDARE.com

This explains why Drudge has been posting Pat's articles lately. Probably also explains Drudge's race baiting headline today.

22 Lee Coller  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:49:01pm

re: #17 Charles

He's on Fox News frequently too.

Laura Ingraham has referred to him as "my good friend" on her radio show too.

23 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:49:27pm

re: #10 middy

Man...that was a common talking point of the left leading up to Operation Iraqi Freedom. IIRC, the Administration was trying to make the case that the Hussein regime was a main sponsor of international terrorism. Seems like the left wanted to skew that as saying 'the Bushies claim Iraq was responsible for 9/11'...

24 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:49:30pm

re: #17 Charles

He's invited to CPAC pretty much every year.

25 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:50:16pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

He's invited to CPAC pretty much every year.

CPAC has been CRAP for years anyway.

26 cliffster  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:50:20pm
The most disturbing fact of all remains:

The 9/11 event responsible for these adverse happenings has not been investigated

Uh, but it actually, er, oh forget it.

27 Dainn  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:50:36pm

re: #17 Charles

He's on Fox News frequently too.

And on Hannity, and The McLaughlin Group. This is the narrative the left-leaning media wants about conservates, so maybe that is why he gets so much air.

On the other hand, maybe he has a following. That is scary.

28 windsword  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:50:49pm
Another problem that the 9/11 Truth Movement faces is that few people have the education to follow the technical and scientific aspects. The side that they believe tells them one thing; the side that they don’t believe tells them another. Most Americans have no basis to judge the relative merits of the arguments.


Really, Pat? I thought that was the only thing keeping morons like you from realizing the absurdity behind the idea of "controlled demolition". American ignorance is a Truther's greatest weapon.

29 Athos  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:50:50pm

re: #22 Lee Coller

Laura Ingraham has referred to him as "my good friend" on her radio show too.

Yeah - this is part of the problem that has to be confronted - conservatives have to see, identify, and call out those so-called conservatives who embrace, advocate, and enable stupidity.

30 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:51:01pm

re: #18 reine.de.tout

I was responding to number nine. I (unfortunately) met a jackass who was spewing nonsense about how Hussein was responsible.

A week later I was at a local show and the singer of one of the bands began to prattle about how we had 9/11 coming. I waited until the show was done, met him in the parking lot and had a spirited debate.

Of course he had his band mates surrounding him, giving him untold courage. When my friends showed up it became not so spirited.

Seems his ilk don't like a fair fight.

31 latingent  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:51:26pm

Pat Buchanan represents no one that I know, he isnt in a position of appointment and he is bat shit crazy. The only reason he is called a conservative is because MSNBC wants it to be so. That way they can parade him around as their Token Right Winger. This is obvious to all who see clearly.

32 Kragar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:52:18pm

House guidelines for Presidential put-downs

House Rules Committee Chairwoman Louise Slaughter (D-NY) has released a helpful, updated primer for members regarding their conduct on the floor and in committees.

Especially useful: The section on how to properly insult the executive branch in the in the chamber.

"Disgrace" and "nitwits" -- okay.

"Liar" or "sexual misconduct" -- ixnay.

Featherweight, dangerously naive and in over his head are still approved, so we're good to go.

33 Athos  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:52:27pm

re: #27 Dainn

On the other hand, maybe he has a following. That is scary.

Just as scary as the following the Laup Nor, Lew Rockwell, and others of Pat's brethern in right wing looniness have.

34 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:53:16pm

Anyone who gives any credence or support to Pat Buchanan needs to read this, In Search of Anti-Semitism, by William F Buckley.

If you don't want to buy the book, here's a Newsweek article on Buckley's article.

35 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:53:23pm

re: #31 latingent

Pat Buchanan represents no one that I know, he isnt in a position of appointment and he is bat shit crazy. The only reason he is called a conservative is because MSNBC wants it to be so. That way they can parade him around as their Token Right Winger. This is obvious to all who see clearly.

Really? Maybe you should let Joe Scarborough, Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham know that Pat Buchanan is not a conservative. They seem to believe otherwise.

36 cronus  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:54:23pm

re: #31 latingent

Pat Buchanan represents no one that I know, he isnt in a position of appointment and he is bat shit crazy. The only reason he is called a conservative is because MSNBC wants it to be so. That way they can parade him around as their Token Right Winger. This is obvious to all who see clearly.

Does Fox also have him on as a "Token Right Winger"?

37 Lee Coller  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:54:30pm

On the plus side, Dennis Prager has called him an anti-semite.

38 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:54:31pm

Speaking of 9/11 truthers, I was at a friend's house last night and there was a DirecTV commercial featuring Charlie Sheen playing during Monday Night Football.

As soon as I heard his voice, I said out loud "For fuck's sake, shut up you 9/11 consiracy theorist". There was a shocked look on my hosts' faces...I thought maybe I offended them with my wording or even the subject matter. Finally one of them pointed to the screen and asked 'He's one of those people?'...

39 KingKenrod  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:54:37pm

re: #25 ArchangelMichael

CPAC has been CRAP for years anyway.

I read a story the other day that CPAC had turned down a birther panel being pushed by WND for next year.

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

40 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:10pm

I really just want Buchanan and all his ilk to scurry back under the rock they came from and just go away. And stay away. Geez.

41 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:17pm

Now we have Ed Morrissey at Hot Air opining that the REAL problem is not the extremists at all -- it's the paranoid centrists.

42 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:23pm

Pat,
You are a douche. Please go away.
CCA

43 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:36pm

re: #17 Charles

re: #27 Dainn


MSNBC loves to trot him out too.,...

44 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:36pm

HAHA remember the yokel who demonstrated that the twin towers were brought down by explosives, by burning fuel under a rabbit's cage?

45 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:55:43pm

re: #41 Charles

Now we have Ed Morrissey at Hot Air opining that the REAL problem is not the extremists at all -- it's the paranoid centrists.

Booga!

46 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:56:10pm

I do now loudly scream that Pat Buchanan be cashiered from all believable consideration and furthermore from polite society:


AaarrrGGHHHUNNNAAhhaA !!

47 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:56:44pm

Charles--and this is a serious question--could you give us a list of things that Pat Buchanan could be dismissed from?

I don't follow him, so I honestly don't know.

And that article is a piece of garbage.

48 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:56:44pm

re: #41 Charles

Now we have Ed Morrissey at Hot Air opining that the REAL problem is not the extremists at all -- it's the paranoid centrists.

Of course! It's not the problem that's the problem, it's the people noticing the problem that are the problem. I believe this fallacy is called "shoot the messenger". It's pretty popular.

49 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:57:42pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

Hey Ms. Sharmuta, am I going to make it in the cook book? =(

50 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:57:48pm

re: #41 Charles

Paranoig centrist???

(must mean Whig?)

I don't know whether to ROFLMAO or *spit*.

51 harpsicon  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:57:52pm

re: #31 latingent

Pat Buchanan represents no one that I know, he isnt in a position of appointment and he is bat shit crazy. The only reason he is called a conservative is because MSNBC wants it to be so. That way they can parade him around as their Token Right Winger. This is obvious to all who see clearly.

Totally. The NeoCons were a total breath of fresh air in comparison with these old-school idiots - lots of ideas, intelligence, political theory, whether or not one actually agreed with them.

The Old Stupid Right will rise again! Or maybe it already has...

In any event, it's so totally convenient for the left and left media to have Buchanan front and center!

52 KingKenrod  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:13pm

I tried to read the article but gave up when the moron started wondering how paper could ever escape the WTC inferno unburned.

53 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:18pm

BTW...is Buchanan a Paleocon or Paleolibertarian?

54 mikalm  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:41pm

Flounce! Be back later, Lizards!

/kidding!

55 Dainn  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:45pm

Sigh. With all the facetime "conservatives" like Pat and his brood are getting these days, It's no wonder that people look at me funny when I admit I'm conservative.

Somewhere along the way conservatism has lost all meaning beyond a media stereotype that people like Pat Buchanan get rich representing.

56 latingent  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:51pm

re: #35 Charles

Those guys are also a bit in the crazy loop. When Fox has him on I`m just as offended. Anyone that gives this guy the time of day needs to have their heads examined. MSNBC is just one example, but he does seem to be on there more than any other.

57 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:58:55pm

re: #49 Equable

Hey Ms. Sharmuta, am I going to make it in the cook book? =(

Yes! I forwarded your recipe to Reine again yesterday, and she received it. No worries.

58 Ojoe  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:00pm

re: #50 Ojoe

I don't care if I mis-spelled something.

Grunt.

59 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:08pm
The researchers explain why so many Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, years after it has become obvious that Iraq had nothing to do with the event. Americans developed elaborate rationalizations based on Bush administration propaganda that alleged Iraqi involvement and became deeply attached to their beliefs.

That's the real "big lie", President Bush never made any such allegation, nor did anyone in the Bush Administration.

60 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:25pm

re: #53 Fenway_Nation

BTW...is Buchanan a Paleocon or Paleolibertarian?

He's an Assholeocon.

61 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:38pm

The article also says that the Lockerbie Trial was a frame up. Sunsabitches

62 Dainn  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:38pm

re: #41 Charles

Now we have Ed Morrissey at Hot Air opining that the REAL problem is not the extremists at all -- it's the paranoid centrists.


LOL! /Down with radical centrism!

63 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:57pm

re: #60 MandyManners


Not a cornholelibertarian?

64 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 2:59:58pm

re: #55 Dainn

Sigh. With all the facetime "conservatives" like Pat and his brood are getting these days, It's no wonder that people look at me funny when I admit I'm conservative.

Somewhere along the way conservatism has lost all meaning beyond a media stereotype that people like Pat Buchanan get rich representing.

Where's a replacement for William F. Buckley when you need him?

The MSM is trotting out these loonies to completely discredit conservatives and Republicans.

65 KingKenrod  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:00:22pm

re: #53 Fenway_Nation

BTW...is Buchanan a Paleocon or Paleolibertarian?

From memory, he seems too aligned to the idea of Christian preeminence to be a libertarian.

66 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:00:43pm

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

The gubment can't keep the tactics we use to track terrorist money out of the NYT, but they can pull off a 9/11? Fucking idiots.

That and not one single person has been overcome with remorse or just ran off his or her mouth talking about it? Not one? Of the thousands of people it would have taken (and the millions of memos that would have to be written) to pull something like that off, not even one has felt bad or been stupid and confessed or been caught?

67 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:07pm

re: #64 Kosh's Shadow


Hate to say it, but they're sometimes just as good at discrediting themselves than the MSM is...

68 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:15pm

re: #39 KingKenrod

I read a story the other day that CPAC had turned down a birther panel being pushed by WND for next year.

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

Yeah but Luap Nor was apparently ok with them last time. It took him all of about 3 seconds into his speech before he was ranting about changing the constitution.

69 Danny  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:29pm

Well, I can't scream on a blog, but I can say the same thing about Buchanan that I said about Van Jones:

Pat Buchanan can blow me.

70 mjwsatx  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:45pm

Pat Buchanan is an A-hole. His views don't represent mine. I am ashamed that Townhall continues to publish his essays - which I refuse to read. This guy is a piece of dreck and in no way represents mainstream conservative thought. Hopefully this latest exhibit of his craziness will make it clear to all that this guy is a loon.

71 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:46pm

re: #50 Ojoe

Paranoig centrist???

(must mean Whig?)

I don't know whether to ROFLMAO or *spit*.

My chest swelleth with pride. Now I've got to update my vita:
... add "paranoid centrist" to bitter clingy (et cetera) honco.

72 ointmentfly  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:01:52pm

I watched a panel on Winston Churchill the other night where PJB was going off about how Churchill was responsible for 10 million deaths and the rise of the Soviet Union and how both world wars were avoidable as if the Germans were just kiddin'... There were 3 other panelists on PJB's side and 3 against and the 3 against absolutely dunked on PJB... They called him out on his revisionism.

Both PJB and Obama are all about the ends... justifying the means is simply rhetoric.

73 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:10pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

Yes! I forwarded your recipe to Reine again yesterday, and she received it. No worries.

Awesomesauce! Thank you!

What was the deadline again? Sorry for not knowing, I misplaced a DVD that keeps backups of things like that.

74 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:22pm

re: #66 ~Fianna

That and not one single person has been overcome with remorse or just ran off his or her mouth talking about it? Not one? Of the thousands of people it would have taken (and the millions of memos that would have to be written) to pull something like that off, not even one has felt bad or been stupid and confessed or been caught?

Well stated.

75 Dainn  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:27pm

re: #64 Kosh's Shadow

Where's a replacement for William F. Buckley when you need him?

I was thinking exactly that. The closest thing we have I think is someone like Charles Krauthammer.

76 Dianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:29pm

Trying to get Pat Buchanan to shut up and go away has been an ongoing project for a lot of people.

77 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:37pm

re: #64 Kosh's Shadow

Where's a replacement for William F. Buckley when you need him?

The MSM is trotting out these loonies to completely discredit conservatives and Republicans.

Nope, sorry, that excuse doesn't wash.

As Killgore mentioned above, Buchanan has also been a guest at CPAC, and his articles are published at almost EVERY major conservative website. You can't blame the MSM for that.

78 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:02:56pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

Yes! I forwarded your recipe to Reine again yesterday, and she received it. No worries.

Oh and the reason I ask is because I am sure that many people would enjoy the recipe. Sure there's a little ego involved, but every time I make it people go nuts for it.

79 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:03:18pm

re: #49 Equable

Hey Ms. Sharmuta, am I going to make it in the cook book? =(

Yes.

80 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:04:02pm

re: #53 Fenway_Nation

BTW...is Buchanan a Paleocon or Paleolibertarian?

Generally they are very close. Paleocons seem to be more fixed on the whole "America is supposed to be a Christian nation" meme than Paleolibs who are more fixated on the "Lets party like its 1789" isolationist meme. They are virtually on just about everything else.

81 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:04:09pm

re: #70 mjwsatx

Pat Buchanan is an A-hole. His views don't represent mine. I am ashamed that Townhall continues to publish his essays - which I refuse to read. This guy is a piece of dreck and in no way represents mainstream conservative thought. Hopefully this latest exhibit of his craziness will make it clear to all that this guy is a loon.

Except that way too many supposedly conservative outlets continue to give Buchanan air time, as if he is indeed representative.

He doesn't represent me, that's for sure.

82 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:04:55pm

How long before David Duke gets to speak at CPAC? Sheesh

83 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:05:11pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

Thank you Reine, I am very happy for that. Saw the deadline... I'll contribute plenty next time around.

84 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:05:24pm

Yeah, that one caused my eyeballs to bug out, too. I majored in history, and I can figure that one out.

re: #65 KingKenrod

From memory, he seems too aligned to the idea of Christian preeminence to be a libertarian.

85 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:05:28pm

re: #49 Equable

Hey Ms. Sharmuta, am I going to make it in the cook book? =(

To Serve Lizard?

"It's a cookbook!!!"

86 rwmofo  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:05:39pm

re: #53 Fenway_Nation

BTW...is Buchanan a Paleocon or Paleolibertarian?

He's a Paleo-comb-over.

87 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:06:07pm

re: #85 ArchangelMichael

HAHA! I forced Equable Jr. to watch that episode the other day. He is now addicted to the Twilight Zone.

88 cronus  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:06:11pm

re: #41 Charles

Now we have Ed Morrissey at Hot Air opining that the REAL problem is not the extremists at all -- it's the paranoid centrists.

Yeah Ed, the devolution of policymakers into blind knee-jerk ideology over the last 20 years has been spectacular for the county. Just look, we are energy independent, have a manageable national debt, reigned in entitlement spending, and have been positively devoid of huge financial setbacks.

Oh right, none of those things happened...but at least we had fun calling each other names.

89 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:06:23pm

re: #80 ArchangelMichael

Generally they are very close. Paleocons seem to be more fixed on the whole "America is supposed to be a Christian nation" meme than Paleolibs who are more fixated on the "Lets party like its 1789" isolationist meme. They are virtually identical on just about everything else.

PIMF

90 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:06:32pm

'Bush lied...9/11 was an inside job'...shit. Right...left...this shit has come full circle like the oroborus...the serpent that is devouring it's own tail.

91 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:06:41pm

re: #84 Emmmieg

Yeah, that one caused my eyeballs to bug out, too. I majored in history, and I can figure that one out.

Oh that was cute. I was trying to respond to your earlier comment about the paper.

92 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:07:03pm

re: #23 Fenway_Nation

Man...that was a common talking point of the left leading up to Operation Iraqi Freedom. IIRC, the Administration was trying to make the case that the Hussein regime was a main sponsor of international terrorism. Seems like the left wanted to skew that as saying 'the Bushies claim Iraq was responsible for 9/11'...

Bush did spend an entire National Address on the Iraq war trying to make the link. Here's the CSM's coverage: [Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

The National Review was still flogging it in June of 2004 [Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Cheney did think so, but later (sort-of) denied it: [Link: open.salon.com...]

While I don't think Bush ever came out and said it directly, the Administration seemed to have a policy of thinking it was convenient for people to think so.

93 agarrett  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:08:17pm

re: #41 Charles

Well, Morrissey was putting up a link to an article at reason, [Link: www.reason.com...] It's a pretty good article, I thought, and nicely reasoned through. Commentary on the article is not the same as the original article, of course, and I'd recommend reading it.

The article title is, as you represent, the Paranoid Center. Still, don't judge a book by its cover, or an article by its headline...

94 Gabriel Hanna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:08:21pm

I've rejected Pat Buchanan and thought he was a racist, anti-Semitic nut for nearly two decades.

That he is a Troofer doesn't surprise me.

Am I allowed to be happy that Van Jones is gone now?

95 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:08:29pm

re: #29 Athos

Yeah - this is part of the problem that has to be confronted - conservatives have to see, identify, and call out those so-called conservatives who embrace, advocate, and enable stupidity.

Conservatives and conservative media types need to stop giving the kooks a platform; and start looking for rational conservatives to promote. They exist. I know they must exist, those of us here cannot be the only ones in the country, and at least some of them must be in positions of influence. Where are they? The conservative media is doing a great disservice to the "cause" when they give a platform to these folks.

96 Bubbaman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:08:48pm

Buchanan - the same #$* who rewrote history and claimed that Hitler didn't want war and that had the Allies just given Germany the Polish city of Gdansk WWII would have never occurred. The butt-head further asserts that Hitler wanted peace in 1940 and the Holocaust (of which he denies too) wouldn't have happened had the Allies acquiesced on Poland.

It is embarassing that the MSM gives this wacko any coverage whatsoever.

97 Rageman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:09:21pm

HOTAIR has the latest ACORN expose. Its pretty ugly. (Sorry to interrupt)

98 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:09:23pm

My dinner is ready and I have lost my appetite. Fuck. BBL.

99 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:09:35pm

re: #93 agarrett

Well, Morrissey was putting up a link to an article at reason, [Link: www.reason.com...] It's a pretty good article, I thought, and nicely reasoned through. Commentary on the article is not the same as the original article, of course, and I'd recommend reading it.

The article title is, as you represent, the Paranoid Center. Still, don't judge a book by its cover, or an article by its headline...

I haven't read the article yet, but the snippet put up at Hot Air made it sound like the author was creating his thesis with...no facts. Just his suppositions about what he thinks is going on.

Does he present any data to support his thesis? I saw none in the snippet I saw.

100 theheat  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:10:36pm

Good luck blaming the liberal media for tarring the right wing. No, people like Buchanan can take credit for that without any additional assistance whatsoever. And it pays pretty well.

101 Bubbaman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:11:02pm

re: #97 Rageman

I don't particularly like "hit pieces", but it exposes some pretty awful truths.

102 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:11:11pm

Paul Craig Roberts is part of the Chronicles stable of writers - they are almost all without fail anti-semite, white supremacists, and isolationist.

Here's a link to the cache, if you scroll down you can see one of PCR's recent articles on the mid east.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

103 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:12:19pm

It's been a source of amazement to me for a while that Buchanan gets invited on to 'mainstream' American tv.

104 cronus  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:12:24pm

OT: Because the rhetoric around Joe Wilson wasn't already out of control...

Congressman: People Will Wear "White Hoods" If Wilson Not Rebuked

105 nordink  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:12:58pm

Based on Charles's most recent Buchanan post (about Buchanan's article which, in truly jaw-dropping fashion, distorted Churchill's words and suggested that Hitler did not want war), I have boycotted Salem and Townhall.com for continuing to publish that kind of intellectual trash.

I emailed them about it, along with Dennis Prager and Hugh Hewitt. Haven't heard back yet.

Will my one-man protest do anything productive?

Of course not. But at least I can feel some smidgen of self-pride that I distanced myself from Buchanan and his repugnant, hateful, ludicrous revisionism!

It seems the bulk of conservatives think that they can successfully affect policy (and win elections) despite some skeletons in the closet. Well, my feeling is that conservatives' skeletons (Buchanan, Ron Paul, Glenn Beck, the Washington Times, "We Came Unarmed This Time," "You Lie!", Nirth Certifikatery, Darwin=Eugenics, etc., etc., etc.) are bursting from the closets and clogging up all the rooms of the house! It's getting hard to find any space there.

106 ointmentfly  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:13:28pm

re: #100 theheat

Good luck blaming the liberal media for tarring the right wing. No, people like Buchanan can take credit for that without any additional assistance whatsoever. And it pays pretty well.

It is a little odd that he is basically the conservative of record over at MSNBC. Yeah, yeah, he shows up at Fox from time to time... but what true main stream conservative would get the nod or would take the nod to sign up at MSNBC?

107 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:14:03pm

Potential flounce downstairs at #506

108 activatedsludge  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:14:06pm

Pat's pro-tariff, trade-protectionist lunacy also makes for some great comedy.

Listening to him expound on the evil Chinese and the horrors of Americans buying their lower-priced goods is always worth a few laughs.

109 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:14:30pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Conservatives and conservative media types need to stop giving the kooks a platform; and start looking for rational conservatives to promote. They exist. I know they must exist, those of us here cannot be the only ones in the country, and at least some of them must be in positions of influence. Where are they? The conservative media is doing a great disservice to the "cause" when they give a platform to these folks.

The moderates have all been demonized as RINOs!1! This is why the purge mentality is so dangerous- it leaves us with who exactly? It leaves us with Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan apparently. Now our right-wing heroes are Joe Wilson and Joe the Plumber. Meanwhile- intelligent republicans like David Frum are shunned.

And then there's Peggy Noonan- who was trashed far and wide for her opinions on Sarah Palin, but the moment she says something the rabid-wing wants to hear, she is likewise held up as a hero and all criticisms of her from last year are forgotten. I just don't see a lot of intellectual honesty going on in the right at this time, and it's dearly costing the party.

110 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:14:41pm

re: #107 ArchangelMichael

2 Steps downstairs that is.

111 agarrett  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:15:02pm

Anyway, I'll go back to the original question. Yes, I think this article is disqualifying. PJB should resign from any government position he holds, and should not be appointed to any in the future.

Being a bit less facetious, I think this pretty much disqualifies him from being taken seriously on anything, and I've got no problems seeing it used against him regularly. On the other hand, both personally and in my expectations of what will happen, I don't expect the same outrage as there was against Jones. Buchanan is not in government, and that makes a real difference.

Also, at least at the moment, I find the ACORN scandals more interesting to follow, and would be more likely to get involved in trying to get rid of officials who have been involved with them. I guess I see Buchanan as a has-been, and just don't generate the same level of scandal.

112 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:15:06pm

re: #108 activatedsludge

Pat's pro-tariff, trade-protectionist lunacy also makes for some great comedy.

Listening to him expound on the evil Chinese and the horrors of Americans buying their lower-priced goods is always worth a few laughs.

Exactly, Pat's a Populist and he really supports Obama on tire tariffs and trade wars...

113 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:15:36pm

Speaking of vicious, nasty anti-semites...has anyone seen this shit yet?

I'd bet the fucking farm that there wasn't one fucking syllable about all the rockets Hamas rained down on Sredot.

114 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:15:52pm

The Onion does it again:

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

115 cronus  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:16:00pm

OT: Joe Wilson has been "rebuked"...whatever that means.

House passes resolution of disapproval

House Democrats dealt South Carolina Rep. Joe Wilson a formal rebuke Wednesday, taking the rare step of passing a resolution of disapproval for his famous “you lie!” outburst last week in the House chamber.

The vote was 240-179, falling almost exclusively along party lines...

...Even though the vote was largely partisan, there were a few departures from party loyalty. Seven Republicans voted to rebuke Wilson: Rep. Joseph Cao of Louisiana, Joanne Emerson of Missouri, Jeff Flake of Arizona, Walter Jones of North Carolina, Tom Petri of Wisconsin, Dana Rohrabacher of California and fellow South Carolinian Bob Inglis.

But 12 Democrats voted no on the resolution: Michael Arcuri of New York, Bill Delahunt of Massachusetts, Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, Maurice Hinchey of New York, Paul Hodes of New Hampshire, Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, Dan Maffei of New York, Eric Massa of New York, James McDermott of Washington, Gwen Moore of Wisconsin, Gene Taylor of Mississippi and Harry Teague of New Mexico.

116 Gabriel Hanna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:16:02pm

@#92 Fianna

While I don't think Bush ever came out and said it directly, the Administration seemed to have a policy of thinking it was convenient for people to think so.

Al Qaeda most definitely was linked with Al Qaeda, as Saddam Hussein supplied, aided, and trained them throughout the 90's and allowed them to operate freely in Kurdistan. But that is not the same thing as "Saddam helped with 9/11", a straw man that only nuts and opponents of the Iraq War talked about.

117 Bubbaman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:16:11pm

re: #109 Sharmuta
FWIW, I read something the "W" supposedly said about S. Palin, and it wasn't exactly kind - neither were his comments about BHO and Shrillary.

118 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:16:46pm

From Hot Air...

The paranoia of the center, Walker argues, is much more dangerous, because it has the power to infringe on rights that the extreme right and left never have:


Lol! Beware the radical moderates!

119 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:17:10pm

re: #107 ArchangelMichael

That's what the report button is for.

120 Coracle  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:17:58pm

re: #113 Fenway_Nation

Speaking of vicious, nasty anti-semites...has anyone seen this shit yet?

I'd bet the fucking farm that there wasn't one fucking syllable about all the rockets Hamas rained down on Sredot.

Well...

In a 575-page report, Goldstone and three other investigators also found evidence "that Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes, as well as possibly crimes against humanity."

3rd paragraph of the report. I'm not saying it's being evenhanded toward Israel, but it's not exactly silent about the Palestinians, either.

121 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:18:14pm

re: #109 Sharmuta

The moderates have all been demonized as RINOs!1! This is why the purge mentality is so dangerous- it leaves us with who exactly? It leaves us with Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan apparently. Now our right-wing heroes are Joe Wilson and Joe the Plumber. Meanwhile- intelligent republicans like David Frum are shunned.

And then there's Peggy Noonan- who was trashed far and wide for her opinions on Sarah Palin, but the moment she says something the rabid-wing wants to hear, she is likewise held up as a hero and all criticisms of her from last year are forgotten. I just don't see a lot of intellectual honesty going on in the right at this time, and it's dearly costing the party.

Well, and it seems Bush is being demonized or at least shunned by conservatives, as well. Not that I ever thought Bush was any sort of great conservative, but his values were more similar to mine than any of the folks being given a platform today.

As far as Peggy Noonan - sometimes a writer says things I agree with, sometimes they say things I don't agree with, and I'm not sure that agreeing with Noonan on one thing but not another is necessarily intellectual dishonesty.

122 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:18:16pm

re: #92 ~Fianna

It might seem very ridiculous now, but at the time there was enough fear, dread, sadness and most of all, paranoia to last a life time. I mean, our intelligence indicated that Hussein had recently attempted to launch an assassination attempt on Bush Sr. in 1993. Qaddafi (hell, pick one of the 80-quadrillion different spellings) was responsible for the Lockerbie tragedy.

Down-ding me if you want, but I can understand why that was many people's first impression. Bin Laden immediately came to my mind, but had I not kept abreast of current events I too might have considered the possibility. It isn't so ridiculous that national leaders, especially from that region would pull a boner head move like that. And considering that people had very little faith in our intelligence community at the time (after 9/11) and the sheer audacity/barbaric nature of the attack, again - I can see why people would blame him in the first place even after it was reported that Bin Laden could be responsible.

I'd hate to believe that our leaders used our righteous anger as a springboard to start a fight in Iraq, but after learning what Hussein was up to before and after 9/11 I still believe that we did the right thing in Iraq.

123 fizzlogic  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:18:46pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I hope the rest of the RW picks up on this message. Because all it does is alienate the right further than it already is. :)

124 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:19:23pm

re: #116 Gabriel Hanna

@#92 Fianna

While I don't think Bush ever came out and said it directly, the Administration seemed to have a policy of thinking it was convenient for people to think so.

Al Qaeda most definitely was linked with Al Qaeda, as Saddam Hussein supplied, aided, and trained them throughout the 90's and allowed them to operate freely in Kurdistan. But that is not the same thing as "Saddam helped with 9/11", a straw man that only nuts and opponents of the Iraq War talked about.

That's not what the Pentagon thinks: [Link: www.cnn.com...]

125 ointmentfly  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:19:27pm

re: #116 Gabriel Hanna

@#92 Fianna

While I don't think Bush ever came out and said it directly, the Administration seemed to have a policy of thinking it was convenient for people to think so.

Al Qaeda most definitely was linked with Al Qaeda, as Saddam Hussein supplied, aided, and trained them throughout the 90's and allowed them to operate freely in Kurdistan. But that is not the same thing as "Saddam helped with 9/11", a straw man that only nuts and opponents of the Iraq War talked about.

I can't get beyond the fact that both Saddam and Osama both had the same goal, which was to get the US out of the middle east...

126 agarrett  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:19:54pm

re: #99 vxbush

Well, it is a thesis, an argument, not a proof. He lists several times in the past we've tried to overgeneralize violence on the part of a fringe element, and wound up overreacting and bringing in mainstream people. He looks at the reaction to Pearl Harbor and the Oklahoma City bombing in reasonable detail, and some other examples in less detail. From there, he tries to draw analogies to the current situation.

So, whether you consider these facts of his case or not probably depends on how much you accept arguing by analogy. I found it well written and well argued, and you can take that recommendation for what it's worth.

127 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:19:54pm

Commenter at Hot Air plotting an LGF flounce...

I’ve been thinking about getting myself banned from LGF due to Charles’ obsession with the small amount of kooks on the right. Most of his targets are people we’ve never heard of. BOOO-ring (Channeling Homer).

Oh, I don’t use the “Old Dog” moniker over there.

perroviejo

128 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:20:02pm

re: #99 vxbush

I haven't read the article yet, but the snippet put up at Hot Air made it sound like the author was creating his thesis with...no facts. Just his suppositions about what he thinks is going on.

Does he present any data to support his thesis? I saw none in the snippet I saw.

Okay, I'm reading the article at Reason now, and he does, sort of, present data. But I would almost characterize the writer as saying, "See, the paranoid center is linking all these things together and finding a horrific portrait of the right. They shouldn't do that."

I don't think I can agree with the thesis presented.
But...

129 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:20:14pm

re: #115 cronus

Heh, Kooks support Wilson -- Kucinich voted not to rebuke him.

130 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:20:38pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

From Hot Air...

The paranoia of the center, Walker argues, is much more dangerous, because it has the power to infringe on rights that the extreme right and left never have:

Lol! Beware the radical moderates!

Yeah- the far right didn't infringe on her rights at all.

131 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:21:47pm

re: #123 trendsurfer

The right is doing an enormous amount of damage to itself at an unbelievable pace. I can't imagine how much longer this can go on.

132 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:21:49pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Commenter at Hot Air plotting an LGF flounce...

how dramatic...I'm sure his fan club is enthralled...another case of the internet turning someone's brain to sludge, as if any of it matters

133 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:22:21pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

That's what the report button is for.

The report button only informs Charles, I wanted to inform him + those of us who wanted to go point and laugh at the silly sockpuppet.

134 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:22:32pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Commenter at Hot Air plotting an LGF flounce...

Another hero in his own mind.

135 Pianobuff  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:22:49pm

Edgar always impressed me as being the wonky Buchanan.

136 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:22:58pm

re: #130 Sharmuta

Yeah- the far right didn't infringe on her rights at all.

Oh dear sweet Jesus - the tears. I am crying right now.

137 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:06pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

That's what the report button is for.

Not quite. I saw AM's alert as a public service ... :D
Problem was, I was to slow to get there to whack the SOB.
RATS!

138 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:30pm

re: #120 Coracle

3rd paragraph of the report. I'm not saying it's being evenhanded toward Israel, but it's not exactly silent about the Palestinians, either.

Guess which one the report lavishes more attention on...

C'mon! Guess...

139 doubter4444  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:31pm

re: #10 middy

Huh?

I've never met anyone who thought that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.

You are joking, right?

140 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:35pm

Should I watch the new ACORN video? I haven't watched any of them so far and I don't want to ruin my streak.

141 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:36pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

Well, and it seems Bush is being demonized or at least shunned by conservatives, as well. Not that I ever thought Bush was any sort of great conservative, but his values were more similar to mine than any of the folks being given a platform today.

As far as Peggy Noonan - sometimes a writer says things I agree with, sometimes they say things I don't agree with, and I'm not sure that agreeing with Noonan on one thing but not another is necessarily intellectual dishonesty.

It's not the agreeing or disagreeing with Noonan that I meant. It was the sheer demonization of her. Once she was useful, however, no one seemed to care about it. She was back in everyone's good graces.

142 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:23:50pm

re: #133 ArchangelMichael

The report button only informs Charles, I wanted to inform him + those of us who wanted to go point and laugh at the silly sockpuppet.

For which I thank you.

143 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:24:19pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

it could be the idiot who just flounced two threads back. He was banned twice before, and had two other sock puppets I discovered. Registered at least five accounts here.

Or it could be another brain-damaged idiot. No shortage of them at Hot Air.

144 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:24:46pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

The right is doing an enormous amount of damage to itself at an unbelievable pace. I can't imagine how much longer this can go on.

I'd guess 7 years more...

145 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:25:11pm

re: #126 agarrett

Well, it is a thesis, an argument, not a proof. He lists several times in the past we've tried to overgeneralize violence on the part of a fringe element, and wound up overreacting and bringing in mainstream people. He looks at the reaction to Pearl Harbor and the Oklahoma City bombing in reasonable detail, and some other examples in less detail. From there, he tries to draw analogies to the current situation.

So, whether you consider these facts of his case or not probably depends on how much you accept arguing by analogy. I found it well written and well argued, and you can take that recommendation for what it's worth.

I find it very hard to necessarily draw the same conclusions looking back in history at fringe elements and pointing, "Ah, there! We decisively screwed up there!" and then comparing then to now.

Two paragraphs:

When panicky centrists aren't willing to draw an unbroken line from peaceful conservatives to the violent fringe, they posit a somewhat subtler link. The killers, they acknowledge, aren't taking their marching orders directly from Fox News and AM radio. But by giving serious attention to theories associated with the fringe right—that the Federal Emergency Management Agency is preparing concentration camps, that Barack Obama is not a natural-born U.S. citizen—Glenn Beck and other broadcasters are validating the grievances of potential killers, giving them the impression that they aren't alone. This validation is buttressed by the sweeping, sometimes violent rhetoric about "liberals" that you hear from partisan celebrities, such as Ann Coulter's joke that McVeigh should have blown up the New York Times building instead. In The Eliminationists and on his blog, David Neiwert tries to establish a chain linking "eliminationist" behavior in American history (lynchings of blacks and Asians, the slaughter of American Indians), eliminationist rhetoric on the mainstream right (the Coulter wisecrack), and von Brunn–style efforts to eliminate people directly.

The theory is interesting, but it has two enormous problems. The first is that it ignores the autonomy of people on the fringe. Not just the radicals who commit the crimes, but the radicals who don't commit crimes. There's a complex ecology at work here, one demonstrated most clearly in those cases when militiamen alerted authorities to terrorist plots in their midst. Words have influence, but they influence different people in different ways; you can't reduce media effects to simple push-pull reactions. Accusing Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly of validating right-wing violence isn't so different from accusing pornography of validating rape, Ozzy Osbourne of validating teen suicide, or Marilyn Manson of validating school massacres.

I'm sorry, but words have meaning, and there is a reason why we want reporters to have multiple sources for the information they present in order to be credible. Beck's comments about internment camps wasn't sourced, and yet some people accepted that information hook, line, and sinker. Shouldn't he also be held accountable for spewing false information that might cause people to act irrationally?

146 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:25:35pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Should I watch the new ACORN video? I haven't watched any of them so far and I don't want to ruin my streak.

Killgore -yes, you should watch, imo.
How can you make a decision about the credibility of either side on the video if you don't watch it?

147 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:26:06pm

re: #133 ArchangelMichael

The report button only informs Charles, I wanted to inform him + those of us who wanted to go point and laugh at the silly sockpuppet.

like toss gas on a fire?

148 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:26:15pm

Buchanan's a troofer? [deleted] The guy is a piece of work and now he's pushing this too? Lovely. [deleted]

And how's his pal Hannity going to deal with that seeing how Hannity is no fan of troofers. Or is he going to overlook this madness, just as he's overlooked everything else.

A pox on the lot of them. [deleted]

149 Gabriel Hanna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:26:24pm

@#124 Fianna:
That's not what the Pentagon thinks

Try reading the actual reports, and not the CNN headlines purporting to summarize them, for a change, you may learn something.

I will never forget how Bush's EXPLICIT denial, in the 2003 SOTU, that Iraq was an imminent threat was headlined as "Bush says Iraq therat "imminent"."

150 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:27:18pm

re: #122 Equable

It might seem very ridiculous now, but at the time there was enough fear, dread, sadness and most of all, paranoia to last a life time. I mean, our intelligence indicated that Hussein had recently attempted to launch an assassination attempt on Bush Sr. in 1993. Qaddafi (hell, pick one of the 80-quadrillion different spellings) was responsible for the Lockerbie tragedy.

Down-ding me if you want, but I can understand why that was many people's first impression. Bin Laden immediately came to my mind, but had I not kept abreast of current events I too might have considered the possibility. It isn't so ridiculous that national leaders, especially from that region would pull a boner head move like that. And considering that people had very little faith in our intelligence community at the time (after 9/11) and the sheer audacity/barbaric nature of the attack, again - I can see why people would blame him in the first place even after it was reported that Bin Laden could be responsible.

I'd hate to believe that our leaders used our righteous anger as a springboard to start a fight in Iraq, but after learning what Hussein was up to before and after 9/11 I still believe that we did the right thing in Iraq.

We definitely did the right thing in Iraq. Hussein was not a nice guy. (I wish we'd planned it a little better - we did a great job with the war, but not such a great job at first with the rebuilding)

However, a link between Hussein and AQ would not have been of interest to Hussein. For all his faults, Iraq was a fairly secular state and Hussein was not the same branch of Islam as AQ on OBL. He had no more use for Talibani-style mountain religion than we do.

151 Cato the Elder  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:28:06pm

Now, if you can't at least like Obama a little bit after this, you've definitely got ODS.

Barack calls Kanye a "jackass"...

152 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:28:39pm

re: #148 lawhawk

Buchanan's a troofer? [deleted] The guy is a piece of work and now he's pushing this too? Lovely. [deleted]

And how's his pal Hannity going to deal with that seeing how Hannity is no fan of troofers. Or is he going to overlook this madness, just as he's overlooked everything else.

A pox on the lot of them. [deleted]

Time will tell... but unfortunately Buchanan's supporters in the media have egos the size of Alaska. They may come out and admit their intellectual malfeasance, but I doubt they'd be willing to eat some crow and learn a lesson.

153 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:28:47pm

re: #148 lawhawk

Buchanan's a troofer? [deleted] The guy is a piece of work and now he's pushing this too? Lovely. [deleted]

And how's his pal Hannity going to deal with that seeing how Hannity is no fan of troofers. Or is he going to overlook this madness, just as he's overlooked everything else.

A pox on the lot of them. [deleted]

Everyone ignored the Holocaust denial -- I'm sure they'll have no trouble ignoring this.

154 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:29:33pm

re: #125 ointmentfly

I can't get beyond the fact that both Saddam and Osama both had the same goal, which was to get the US out of the middle east...

Hussein had no interest in dealing with AQ - the areas that Bin Ladin was able to get any traction in are the same areas where Hussein was never able to fully establish control. Allowing AQ to gain a foothold in Iraq would have been detrimental to Hussein maintaining the kind of power and control that he wanted.

155 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:29:56pm

re: #150 ~Fianna

Indeed and well said. Hussein was nuttier than a sh** house mouse but he was awfully crafty.

156 Formercorpsman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:30:08pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

Only coming up to speed this morning with that incident, (I don't watch award shows) Obama did sound disgusted about the situation.

I'll give him credit for that.

157 Eowyn2  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:30:18pm

re: #4 Honorary Yooper

Somehow, I think Pat "Pitchfork" Buchanan still has yet to hit bottom. The man associates with fascists in Europe, racists in America, and now is promoting Trooferism. Yet, somehow, I think he can still reach lower.

He's just trying to find his political niche.

/

158 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:30:39pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

Like I said earlier- torching jihadi honchos in Somalia (I'm assuming that had executive-level authorization) and straightforward assessment of Kanye West.

Two things BH0 did that I agree with in the span of 24 hours...mark the date.

159 Danny  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:30:49pm

re: #151 Cato the Elder

I agree 100% with Obama on this. And of course with killing the fly. "Got that sucka!" Classic.

160 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:31:00pm

re: #113 Fenway_Nation

Speaking of vicious, nasty anti-semites...has anyone seen this shit yet?

I'd bet the fucking farm that there wasn't one fucking syllable about all the rockets Hamas rained down on Sredot.

Someone posted a link today about an official with HRW being fired or suspended for collecting Nazi memorabilia. I cannot find it.

161 Dianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:31:15pm

Good night, and take care.

162 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:31:27pm

re: #148 lawhawk

Buchanan's a troofer? [deleted] The guy is a piece of work and now he's pushing this too? Lovely. [deleted]

And how's his pal Hannity going to deal with that seeing how Hannity is no fan of troofers. Or is he going to overlook this madness, just as he's overlooked everything else.

A pox on the lot of them. [deleted]

It's not surprising buchanan would give this lie a place at the table. Anything to blame da Jooos!

163 Formercorpsman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:31:36pm

re: #159 Danny

That was good too.

164 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:32:03pm

re: #156 Formercorpsman

Only coming up to speed this morning with that incident, (I don't watch award shows) Obama did sound disgusted about the situation.

I'll give him credit for that.

As will I. Even if his quote was "off the record" and put out by mistake.

165 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:33:12pm

re: #160 MandyManners

Someone posted a link today about an official with HRW being fired or suspended for collecting Nazi memorabilia. I cannot find it.

Here

166 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:33:16pm

re: #160 MandyManners

Two separate items. The UN said that Israel engaged in actions that could be construed as war crimes or crimes against humanity during Operation Cast Lead.

It was an afterthought that they mentioned that Hamas did so (and ignored that but for Hamas terrorism, Israel would never have carried out their operation to kill the very terrorists engaged in war crimes in the first place).

The second is that HRW sent Garlasco packing.

167 Bubbaman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:33:47pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

Actually, if BHO demonstrated more common sense like this, he would probably be doing better in the polls.

168 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:34:17pm

re: #165 reine.de.tout

Here

Thanks!

Now I'm looking for the Jerusalem Post article.

169 SixDegrees  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:35:23pm

re: #156 Formercorpsman

Only coming up to speed this morning with that incident, (I don't watch award shows) Obama did sound disgusted about the situation.

I'll give him credit for that.

This is the kind of incident any politician loves. There's only one, single, well-defined side. EVERYONE thinks West is the biggest asshole who ever lived, without exception. I don't think you could find a single, solitary person - except West - who feels otherwise.

There is no downside to hating on Kanye. If someone offered a Constitutional Amendment banning West from ever opening his mouth again, it would pass into law unanimously by tomorrow afternoon.

In fact, that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

170 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:35:24pm

re: #168 MandyManners

Thanks!

Now I'm looking for the Jerusalem Post article.

Here's a Weekly Standard article - the guy used a nic of FLAK88

171 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:35:37pm

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

172 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:35:49pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

Ok, I watched some of it. The Acorn worker claims to have shot her abusive husband in self defense. I'm pretty sure the cops already investigated the incident and took appropriate action. She also admits to being a prostitute which is not that unusual for social workers. Many of them have lead very tough lives before they start helping others. This is pretty much what I expected from these tapes. I don't trust the people making these tapes enough to watch the rest of them.

173 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:36:04pm

re: #170 reine.de.tout

Here's a Weekly Standard article - the guy used a nic of FLAK88

WTF? 88? Goose-stepping asshole.

174 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:36:14pm

VH1 Classic - Iron Maiden documentary.

My day just brightened hugely. Time to drink a little heavier!

175 Formercorpsman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:37:08pm

re: #164 reine.de.tout

I have to hit the road. But I guess I can sum it up this way.

As a person, there are some aspects of his personality I could probably get along with. As with all politicians, some more, some less, I tend to not trust any of them.

I think I might have been the first person here a while back, it was either the pirate incident, or the bow incident, IIRC (one of the two, as it pertains to the specific incident), to give him the benefit of the doubt even before it became a thread, responding to an OT link in a prior thread.

I don't really hate him, but I sure as hell don't trust him if that makes any sense.

176 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:37:16pm

re: #170 reine.de.tout

Here's a Weekly Standard article - the guy used a nic of FLAK88

This story just keeps getting better. As noted here earlier this week, another member of Human Rights Watch's Middle East division has found himself in a compromising situation. This isn't the HRW staffer who praised "the achievement of the Munich action" in which Palestinian terrorists murdered 11 Israeli athletes. It's also not the HRW staffer who went to Saudi Arabia to fund-raise off the group's battles with "pro-Israel pressure groups in the US, the European Union and the United Nations." This is the staffer who sits in judgment over Israeli military actions and decides which are war crimes. His name is Marc Garlasco.

177 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:37:20pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

I don't trust the people making these tapes enough to watch the rest of them.

Fine. I'll remember that the next time somebody links mediamatters or thinkprogress...

178 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:37:42pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

Ok, I watched some of it. The Acorn worker claims to have shot her abusive husband in self defense. I'm pretty sure the cops already investigated the incident and took appropriate action. She also admits to being a prostitute which is not that unusual for social workers. Many of them have lead very tough lives before they start helping others. This is pretty much what I expected from these tapes. I don't trust the people making these tapes enough to watch the rest of them.

All I will say is this - my Mom was a social worker and she was NEVER a prostitute.

And you needed to see the tape to draw your own conclusions.

179 EricOF  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:38:01pm

Explain the racism of VDare in a way that refutes the racism in question.

180 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:38:05pm

From the Hot Air ACorn thread...

As O’Keefe reminds us, Alinsky Rule #8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.”

Et tu, AllahPundit?

181 reine.de.tout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:38:10pm

re: #175 Formercorpsman

I have to hit the road. But I guess I can sum it up this way.

As a person, there are some aspects of his personality I could probably get along with. As with all politicians, some more, some less, I tend to not trust any of them.

I think I might have been the first person here a while back, it was either the pirate incident, or the bow incident, IIRC (one of the two, as it pertains to the specific incident), to give him the benefit of the doubt even before it became a thread, responding to an OT link in a prior thread.

I don't really hate him, but I sure as hell don't trust him if that makes any sense.

Makes perfect sense. I feel about the same way.

182 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:01pm

re: #179 EricOF

Explain the racism of VDare in a way that refutes the racism in question.

Is this the klein-bottle of the right-wing?

183 Formercorpsman  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:15pm

re: #169 SixDegrees

He is a tool. He embodies every negative stereotype of the hyper-privileged Hollywood asshole.

184 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:15pm

re: #149 Gabriel Hanna

@#124 Fianna:
That's not what the Pentagon thinks

Try reading the actual reports, and not the CNN headlines purporting to summarize them, for a change, you may learn something.

I will never forget how Bush's EXPLICIT denial, in the 2003 SOTU, that Iraq was an imminent threat was headlined as "Bush says Iraq therat "imminent"."

No one acknowledges a link between OBL and Hussein. It's a preposterous link because it would have threatened Hussein's own power in Iraq.

185 Neutral President  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:19pm

re: #147 albusteve

like toss gas on a fire?

Moving the 2 half-spheres of plutonium closer together.

186 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:35pm

re: #180 Killgore Trout

He's not trying to subtly point out they're following Rules for Radicals, is he?

187 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:39:50pm

re: #180 Killgore Trout

ACORN was corrupt long before 2009.

188 EricOF  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:02pm

re: #182 freetoken

Was that an attempt to explain the asserted "racism?"

189 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:03pm

re: #160 MandyManners

Someone posted a link today about an official with HRW being fired or suspended for collecting Nazi memorabilia. I cannot find it.

There's a couple in the overnight thread, Mere Rhetoric actually got a link back from the NYT on the story.

190 sngnsgt  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:03pm

re: #174 Equable

VH1 Classic - Iron Maiden documentary.

My day just brightened hugely. Time to drink a little heavier!

Is it on now? I wonder if I can TiVo the rest of it?

191 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:38pm

Ugh. Later. Still not up to much conversation.

192 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:42pm

re: #155 Equable

Indeed and well said. Hussein was nuttier than a sh** house mouse but he was awfully crafty.

*nod* He was a very odd dude. The pictures from his mansion of him as a bodice-ripper romance hero were hilarious.

I cheered when we got Uday and Qusai. The kids were actually worse than their dad, and that's saying something.

193 MandyManners  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:41:56pm

Oven's buzzing. bbl

194 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:42:47pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

I have a slightly different take on this. It goes to the types of people that ACORN hires, and if they have a certain moral flexibility, is it a stretch for them to start proffering information that would lead to further illegal actions?

It goes to hiring practices and training.

And it shouldn't take a rocket scientist of an ACORN employee to know that providing information on how to run a prostitution ring out of a home and other sundry information was bad news.

195 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:42:57pm

re: #188 EricOF

Was that an attempt to explain the asserted "racism?"

You threw out a question into the crowd without any context. I don't know if you are trying to defend VDARE, probe the lexical meaning of "racism", or what not.

Try restating the question with a bit more meat.

196 ointmentfly  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:43:02pm

re: #154 ~Fianna

Hussein had no interest in dealing with AQ - the areas that Bin Ladin was able to get any traction in are the same areas where Hussein was never able to fully establish control. Allowing AQ to gain a foothold in Iraq would have been detrimental to Hussein maintaining the kind of power and control that he wanted.

The fact is that AQ had a pretty good foothold in Iraq after 2003 and probably a small one in the 'no fly zones' prior to the invasion. Did they have an office in Baghdad? Probably not.

My point is there is more we don't know about Saddam's regime than we know.

197 BlackFedora  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:43:02pm

re: #3 Fenway_Nation

Did you read Charlie Sheen's fictional conversation with the President about 9/11 Truth? He actually fantasizes that the President enjoys 2 and a Half Men...

What an ego-maniacal monumental Mighty Morphin' Power Douchebag...

198 agarrett  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:45:38pm

re: #145 vxbush

vxbush,

That's a fine question (should Beck be held accountable for his internment camp rumor?) Can I answer both yes and no?

Yes, he should be responsible. I'm all for it. People should take responsibility for what they say and do, and should also take the consequences for it. But you asked if he should be held accountable - and that leads me to ask, by whom?

If being held accountable, for Beck, means making viewers aware of his dumb statements, and ideally seeing a ratings fall / cancellation, then we're on the same page, and we agree. If it means a government or private group going over his rants and deciding they don't belong on TV, I probably wouldn't agree (I say probably to exclude something like the station owner deciding he no longer wants to carry that loon.) If it means he can be held liable for the actions of a third person who heard his rants, and decided to kill off someone who might later have been involved in these internment camps, then no, I can't agree. I need a much tighter chain of responsibility before I'd go along with liability.

Anyway, if you've followed this far, let me go a bit further... I generally like what Charles does on this site. I think bringing up the statements of kooks, publicizing and ridiculing them, is a very good thing. I like it a good bit less when people start talking about purges, but tend to just consider that hyperbole. However, when the same talk (publicizing, ridiculing, and demonizing, not purges) starts coming from government circles, I become much more sympathetic to the stance of the article.

Thanks for taking things seriously enough to argue them well.

199 Athos  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:46:10pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

From Hot Air...
Lol! Beware the radical moderates!

No real surprise since the source of it is Reason.

Given that Reason is the mag of libretarianism - of course they want to deflect the focus from the Laup Nor's, Lew Rockwell's, and other libretarian's who are trying to gain respectability and place the problem on the ones pointing out who's coming in from the fringe.

200 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:47:02pm

re: #179 EricOF

Explain the racism of VDare in a way that refutes the racism in question.

Here come the VDARE supporters.

201 SixDegrees  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:48:40pm

I see the House voted to admonish Joe Wilson today, mostly along party lines, with 7 Republicans and 12 Democrats switching sides.

Wilson's a flaming ass, but this strikes me as overplayed. It looks way too much like the Democrat-controlled House beating up on the opposition simply because they can.

A better approach, once they had committed to wasting Congressional time on this, would have been to find him out of order without comment, then very publicly toss it back to the Republicans with the statement, "He's yours; you decide what to do about him." Punishment would carry a lot more weight if levied by Wilson's own party, and it would have made the Dems look less hamfisted.

Not something I'm going to lose any sleep over. Wilson deserves a public rebuke. But I think this may wind up having the opposite of the intended effect.

202 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:49:16pm

Registered more than 5 years ago. Wants to ban Islam:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

203 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:49:35pm

I just read the whole article. Anybody asking me to watch an entire video of Richard Gage (2hrs) is themselves wacky.

204 Equable  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:50:28pm

re: #190 sngnsgt

On now! It's called "Flight 666". Brice Dickinson (their singer) is a commercial pilot and they own their own Boeing 757. Now that is touring in style!

205 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:51:24pm

re: #202 Charles

That apartheid in the US thing he's thinking really should get the Republicans a lot of votes...

//NOT!

206 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:51:36pm

This is one of 'ErifOF's more recent comments:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

All of Europe is fast asleep. In this particular war, the true threat comes from WITHIN. Our enemy doesn't have strong armies or navies. They weaken us because we allow them to. Our own struggle with the recent attempted amnesty has clarified things for me as never before. The central issue is immigration. It is immigration policy that threatens us. It is immigration policy that has allowed the cancer in and given it opportunity to grow. It is through immigration policy that the West is committing suicide.

There are choices to be made here and make no mistake that the Western tradition itself hangs in the balance. Those choices aren't pleasant. You can't save the West by refusing to take necessary action because innocents may be effected. This is a very modern idea, that so long as some innocent suffers, no course of action is justified. War is a blunt instrument. You can not fight wars without involving the innocent, no matter how hard you try. I'm afraid we are slowly approaching a point whereby we will have one decision only: allow the West to be destroyed, or massively expel all of Islam from Western lands. Yes, I'm talking about mass expulsion all across Western lands. Millions of people, many of them good people, must leave. All attempts at containment that differentiates between "good" Muslims and bad ones are destined to fail to produce an acceptable peace between the violent, aggressive strain of Islam and the nations they so covet. There is ONLY one way to end the cycle and that is to rid ourselves of ALL of them. Ban Islam and refuse entry to any with any connection to this vile sect. De-naturalize those already here and expel them forcibly. It's either that or watch the West die from within. This seems downright medieval to our modern "sophisticated" way of thought but when survival itself is at stake, the world invariably becomes a very medieval place.

Yes, he's calling for mass murder.

In case you're wondering why he's now banned.

207 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:51:43pm

re: #202 Charles

Even odds that he fantasizes about Michelle Malkin...

208 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:53:11pm

Behold the readers of VDARE.

209 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:53:38pm

re: #206 Charles

What a stinky little fascist.

210 Danny  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:54:13pm

How'd he make two more years here after that??

211 BlackFedora  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:54:27pm

"This seems downright medieval to our modern "sophisticated" way of thought but when survival itself is at stake, the world invariably becomes a very medieval place."

Almost all crazies on the left and right seem to think survival of some sort is at stake...

212 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:55:00pm

re: #210 Danny

How'd he make two more years here after that??

I didn't see that comment when he made it, or he wouldn't have been able to lay low for this long.

213 rwmofo  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:55:12pm

re: #202 Charles

Registered more than 5 years ago. Wants to ban Islam:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Wow. I just read that. What are the odds he has an impressive gun collection?

214 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:57:23pm

re: #186 Sharmuta

He's not trying to subtly point out they're following Rules for Radicals, is he?

I don't think he was being subtle about it at all.

215 Danny  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:57:30pm

re: #213 rwmofo

Wow. I just read that. What are the odds he has an impressive gun collection?

I have an impressive gun collection. Somehow, I've still been able to resist writing racist screeds. [Back, evil guns!! BACK!]

216 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:58:28pm

re: #207 freetoken

Even odds that he fantasizes about Michelle Malkin...

Don't worry, freetoken. Ther's some progressives out there who have fantasies involving Michelle Malkin.

217 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:58:35pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

I don't think he was being subtle about it at all.

I'm just wondering if he's endorsing it, or using it as a means to get the air heads to see what they're embracing.

218 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:58:41pm

re: #201 SixDegrees

Agreed.

219 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:58:46pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

What a stinky little fascist.

points for pseudo scholarly windyness tho...
spit

220 Salamantis  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 3:59:06pm

re: #212 Charles

I didn't see that comment when he made it, or he wouldn't have been able to lay low for this long.

More than two whole years! That has to set a record for a delayed action troll banning.

221 vxbush  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:00:50pm

re: #198 agarrett

vxbush,

That's a fine question (should Beck be held accountable for his internment camp rumor?) Can I answer both yes and no?

Yes, he should be responsible. I'm all for it. People should take responsibility for what they say and do, and should also take the consequences for it. But you asked if he should be held accountable - and that leads me to ask, by whom?

If being held accountable, for Beck, means making viewers aware of his dumb statements, and ideally seeing a ratings fall / cancellation, then we're on the same page, and we agree. If it means a government or private group going over his rants and deciding they don't belong on TV, I probably wouldn't agree (I say probably to exclude something like the station owner deciding he no longer wants to carry that loon.) If it means he can be held liable for the actions of a third person who heard his rants, and decided to kill off someone who might later have been involved in these internment camps, then no, I can't agree. I need a much tighter chain of responsibility before I'd go along with liability.

Anyway, if you've followed this far, let me go a bit further... I generally like what Charles does on this site. I think bringing up the statements of kooks, publicizing and ridiculing them, is a very good thing. I like it a good bit less when people start talking about purges, but tend to just consider that hyperbole. However, when the same talk (publicizing, ridiculing, and demonizing, not purges) starts coming from government circles, I become much more sympathetic to the stance of the article.

Thanks for taking things seriously enough to argue them well.

Real quick: i agree that how you keep Beck accountable is touchy. Refute his statements, absolutely. Liability for someone else who may act on his words is murky, I agree. He may not be charged with something unless he specifically asks someone to do something illegal. That could be charged as incitement.

He needs to lose sponsors, as has happens, for his wacky statements. I'm not trying to talk about purging; my apologies if you got that idea from me.

But while some of the weirdness of the right has always existed, it does seem to have gotten out of hand once Obama got in office. I did not vote for Obama, and I disagree with many of his policies. But his presence has brought the weirdos out of the woodwork.

222 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:01:45pm

re: #194 lawhawk
I double checked AP's quote again...

As O’Keefe reminds us, Alinsky Rule #8: “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.”


Hot Air and the makers of the video are very clear that they are using Aliksy's rules.

223 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:03:48pm

re: #219 albusteve

points for pseudo scholarly windyness tho...
spit

There's a lot of pseudo-scholarly bullshit that comes from that element. The ones who are masters of it are able to use it to mask their bigotry enough to look presentable. The fascists in europe have it down to an art form, and they've been spreading it here in America for awhile.

In fact- they even meet with buchanan.

224 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:05:32pm

OK, so Pat Buchanan and Van Jones should be forced to live together somewhere far, far away from the rest of us. They can take Tea Party "welfare thug" guy and Jeremiah Wright with them, so it's an even debate.

shudder

225 sngnsgt  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:06:01pm

re: #204 Equable

Thanks, I knew about Bruce being a pilot. Unless you're a Maiden "Old Timer," Bruce is the best thing to happen to Maiden. I'm a fan from way back during the Dianno days. I bought Killers the day it was released. Either way, it's all good!

Up The Irons!

226 MisterCookie  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:07:28pm

And so the party circles the drain...

227 Gabriel Hanna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:07:44pm

#154 Fianna

No one acknowledges a link between OBL and Hussein. It's a preposterous link because it would have threatened Hussein's own power in Iraq.

Neither of those statements are true. But did you think through your second one at all? You might as well say the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was impossible. It lasted right up until Hitler thought he'd defeated the West; no doubt the terrorist groups allied with Al Qaeda, Iran, and Saddam Hussein all made the same sorts of calculations.

In the 90's Al Qaeda was killing Kurds, which suited Saddam just fine. I'm sure you remember the northern no-fly zone was there?

Here's the BBC from 2002, before the second Iraq war:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

A captured Iraqi intelligence officer of 20 years' standing, Abu Iman al-Baghdadi, who is held by the PUK, said Abu Wa'il is actively manipulating the Ansar on behalf of Iraqi intelligence.

"I was captured by the Kurds after Iraqi intelligence sent me to check what was happening with Abu Wa'il, following rumours that he'd been captured and handed over the CIA," al-Baghdadi said.

He added that Baghdad smuggles arms to the Ansar through the Kurdish area, and is using the group to make problems for the PUK, one of the opposition factions ranged against Saddam Hussein.

"The Ansar's basic allegiance is to al-Qaeda, but some of them were trained in Iraq and went Afghanistan," he said, interviewed in a Kurdish prison.

"When the Americans attacked, they came here through Iran. Iraq is supporting them and using them to carry out attacks."

But Kurdish sources also believe that Iran is arming and training Ansar members, despite Tehran's denials. Ansar wounded are also said to have been treated in Iranian hospitals.

"The Iranian Government always plans to make Islamic security along its border with Kurdistan. Iran is also using these Islamic groups as a pressure card on the secular groups in Kurdistan," says Shwar Mohammad, editor of the Kurdish weekly Hawlati and one of the few people to have interviewed the Ansar leader Mullah Krekar.

But let's all say it together: "No link between Saddam and Al Qaeda". If we repeat enough times we can make it have been true.

228 rwmofo  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:08:08pm

re: #215 Danny

I have an impressive gun collection. Somehow, I've still been able to resist writing racist screeds. [Back, evil guns!! BACK!]

Heh. I have a moderate gun collection and share your views. Just making an observation about, well, the other guy. What are the odds?

229 ryannon  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:09:04pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

The right is doing an enormous amount of damage to itself at an unbelievable pace. I can't imagine how much longer this can go on.

I'm sorry to have to say, longer than you can imagine.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:09:33pm

re: #37 Lee Coller

On the plus side, Dennis Prager has called him an anti-semite.

Every now and then, when I despair of Dennis Prager, he comes through for me.

231 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:10:11pm

Changing topics... Here was a WSJ piece that escaped our notice:

Man vs. God

Richard Dawkins has been right all along, of course—at least in one important respect. Evolution has indeed dealt a blow to the idea of a benign creator, literally conceived. It tells us that there is no Intelligence controlling the cosmos, and that life itself is the result of a blind process of natural selection, in which innumerable species failed to survive. The fossil record reveals a natural history of pain, death and racial extinction, so if there was a divine plan, it was cruel, callously prodigal and wasteful. Human beings were not the pinnacle of a purposeful creation; like everything else, they evolved by trial and error and God had no direct hand in their making. No wonder so many fundamentalist Christians find their faith shaken to the core.

But Darwin may have done religion—and God—a favor ...

Wouldn't play well at a Tea Party, I suppose...

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:10:14pm

re: #44 Equable

HAHA remember the yokel who demonstrated that the twin towers were brought down by explosives, by burning fuel under a rabbit's cage?

I hope to God he removed the rabbit first?

233 Lee Coller  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:11:05pm

re: #213 rwmofo

Wow. I just read that. What are the odds he has an impressive gun collection?

What are the odds he has an extensive WWII "memorabilia" collection?

234 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:11:43pm

I think the 912 rally did set a record: The largest Glenn Beck rally ever...
Glenn Beck’s 9/12 teabaggers: We get our "news" from Fox

Liveleak Video

"Where I come from people are getting their guns ready."

235 fizzlogic  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:12:17pm

OT: Regarding American capitalism ...

Dylan Ratigan: Amercans Have Been Taken Hostage

And a 10 minute MSNBC video from Morning Joe:

MSNBC Video

A great segment, IMHO.

236 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:13:16pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

There's a lot of pseudo-scholarly bullshit that comes from that element. The ones who are masters of it are able to use it to mask their bigotry enough to look presentable. The fascists in europe have it down to an art form, and they've been spreading it here in America for awhile.

In fact- they even meet with buchanan.

commom sense wanders in circles while the golden tongue flim flam rises to peoples twisted expectations...when P Buchanan and G Beck mold political ideology, I'd say America has a problem...talk is cheap and Americans love having their simple minded ideals verbalized with more flair than they themselves can conjure

237 Achilles Tang  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:14:36pm

re: #31 latingent

Pat Buchanan represents no one that I know, he isnt in a position of appointment and he is bat shit crazy. The only reason he is called a conservative is because MSNBC wants it to be so. That way they can parade him around as their Token Right Winger. This is obvious to all who see clearly.

Just curious, do you know how to recognize those who see clearly, other than when they see only what you do?

238 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:15:24pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

I think the 912 rally did set a record: The largest Glenn Beck rally ever...
Glenn Beck’s 9/12 teabaggers: We get our "news" from Fox


[Video]"Where I come from people are getting their guns ready."

I think Huffpo reported yesterday that ad time on his show is now bringing less revenue. Even though he's increased his audience, ad revenue is less than half of his previous high.

239 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:16:33pm

wow got to the point he was trying to make about paper not burning...this dude is a real special kind of asshole...

240 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:16:37pm

re: #238 Thanos

I wonder if it really effects the bottom line. I really doubt FOX would get rid of him, he's way too popular.

241 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #233 Lee Coller

What are the odds he has an extensive WWII "memorabilia" collection?

a Mauser and a Luger...perfect

242 Achilles Tang  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:17:11pm

re: #238 Thanos

I think Huffpo reported yesterday that ad time on his show is now bringing less revenue. Even though he's increased his audience, ad revenue is less than half of his previous high.

Wait 'till he gets more beer commercials.

243 ryannon  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:17:52pm

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Should I watch the new ACORN video? I haven't watched any of them so far and I don't want to ruin my streak.

They're sort of a cinema verité version of Beavis and Butthead. Just when you think it can't get worse... it does.

244 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:18:03pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

Suggest that if it ever becomes true that Fox's bottom line is materially, negatively, affected by a Beck boycott then we will indeed see changes.

245 Locker  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:18:11pm

Afternoon all. With regard to news figured and sources I have a question. Even though they are down ding magnets I frequently link to Glenn Greenwald over at Salon. Is there a person/page which would be comparable on the righter side of the fence?

Thank you.

246 Randall Gross  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:18:24pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

I wonder if it really effects the bottom line. I really doubt FOX would get rid of him, he's way too popular.

It's a valuable time slot - if he falls below the revenue that any old average news show would bring in they might consider options.

247 albusteve  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:18:45pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

I wonder if it really effects the bottom line. I really doubt FOX would get rid of him, he's way too popular.

the price of fame...Rupert can take a hit

248 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:19:27pm

re: #4 Honorary Yooper

Somehow, I think Pat "Pitchfork" Buchanan still has yet to hit bottom. The man associates with fascists in Europe, racists in America, and now is promoting Trooferism. Yet, somehow, I think he can still reach lower.

It was an inside job that was planned by Mossad and implemented by a Mossad/CIA/NSA partnership. --Pat Buchanan

That would be special enough to get him some attention, probably.

249 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:19:31pm

re: #236 albusteve

commom sense wanders in circles while the golden tongue flim flam rises to peoples twisted expectations...when P Buchanan and G Beck mold political ideology, I'd say America has a problem...talk is cheap and Americans love having their simple minded ideals verbalized with more flair than they themselves can conjure

You would be surprised, perhaps, at how prevalent it is.

250 Guanxi88  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:19:45pm

re: #241 albusteve

a Mauser and a Luger...perfect

My Pa, of blessed memory, had such a collection. Stuff he took off the enemy, as trophies and as physical reminders that evil such as that wore a human face.

I daresay any such collections of Pat's, if any, would not have been gathered in a similar fashion, nor for a similar purpose/

251 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:20:20pm

re: #247 albusteve

We have a new thread on that very topic...

252 Achilles Tang  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:22:15pm

re: #236 albusteve

...talk is cheap and Americans love having their simple minded ideals verbalized with more flair than they themselves can conjure

...but this is why I like to hang out here...

253 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:22:23pm

re: #179 EricOF

Explain the racism of VDare in a way that refutes the racism in question.

What does that mean?

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:23:18pm

re: #211 BlackFedora

"This seems downright medieval to our modern "sophisticated" way of thought but when survival itself is at stake, the world invariably becomes a very medieval place."

Almost all crazies on the left and right seem to think survival of some sort is at stake...

If survival is at stake, you get to do shit you wouldn't be allowed to do under normal circumstances. Hence, it's very appealing to people who hanker impose martial law, or torture suspects, or ban cars, or whatever.

255 sngnsgt  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:24:04pm

OT

Just for the laughs, I love watching Chris Matthews "Hardball" show on PMSNBC. Chris "tingly-legs" Matthews is such a partisan hack, it's a riot. He loves to talk over his guests until he gets the answer he wants to hear. It's no wonder that PMSNBC has the lowest ratings in cable news.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:24:35pm

re: #215 Danny

I have an impressive gun collection. Somehow, I've still been able to resist writing racist screeds. [Back, evil guns!! BACK!]

The two are not reciprocally causative. While most people who think like that have a lot of guns, most people who have a lot of guns don't think like that.

257 Guanxi88  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:25:22pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

If survival is at stake, you get to do shit you wouldn't be allowed to do under normal circumstances. Hence, it's very appealing to people who hanker impose martial law, or torture suspects, or ban cars, or whatever.

Yes, the old "harsh necessity and newness of my regime force me to do such things" defense. Yeah, Virgil told us all about it.

258 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:25:25pm

re: #111 agarrett

Anyway, I'll go back to the original question. Yes, I think this article is disqualifying. PJB should resign from any government position he holds, and should not be appointed to any in the future.

Being a bit less facetious, I think this pretty much disqualifies him from being taken seriously on anything, and I've got no problems seeing it used against him regularly. On the other hand, both personally and in my expectations of what will happen, I don't expect the same outrage as there was against Jones. Buchanan is not in government, and that makes a real difference.

Also, at least at the moment, I find the ACORN scandals more interesting to follow, and would be more likely to get involved in trying to get rid of officials who have been involved with them. I guess I see Buchanan as a has-been, and just don't generate the same level of scandal.

Apart from some kind of ideological bias, how on earth could anyone find the ACORN stuff either more relevant or more important-- let alone more interesting?
You'll probably also spin away PB's prominence as 'oh well it's just the MSM making a big deal out of him', while at the same time exaggerating ACORN's role in everything since time began.

Not that ACORN isn't crappy and problematic, but PB and people like him (and Beck and tea parties, et al) are indicative of some major systemic rot right now.

259 MJ  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:27:31pm

Syndicated Columnist Paul Craig Roberts Promotes Anti-Semitism

Paul Craig Roberts is a syndicated columnist whose work on economics has been published in a variety of mainstream publications, including The New York Times and The National Review. Since 2007, his columns have increasingly focused on criticism of Israel and Jews and often conjure up anti-Semitic canards, making them popular with fringe publications on both the left and the right.

Far-right sources that have published Roberts' columns on Jews include American Free Press, an overtly anti-Semitic weekly newspaper, and VDare, a racist Web site. CounterPunch, a far-left anti-Zionist newsletter, and Antiwar, a conspiracy-oriented, anti-Semitic Web site, also often feature Roberts' anti-Semitic columns. Roberts has also been interviewed on the Political Cesspool, a white supremacist radio show...

Read the whole thing:

[Link: www.adl.org...]

260 EE  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:28:22pm

Pat Buchanan shows more and more signs of being both deranged and an antisemite. He is a Hitler fan and apologist for Hitler, a defender of the Nazis, a denier of the Holocaust, and generally someone who repeatedly makes false accusations against the Jews. That's what he does, and I don't expect him to get any saner. Being a 9/11 troofer comes with the general situation of being deranged, so it comes to Buchanan quite naturally to support the 9/11 troofer derangement.

261 Salamantis  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:29:16pm

Considering how execrable and odious Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul both are, it is not surprising that Pat Buchanan has a habit of siding with Ron Paul.

Here, Pat Buchanan sides with Ron Paul re: 9-11 against Rudy Giuliani during the Presidential debates. Even though at this point he still asserts his convition that Bin Laden perpetrated the atrocity, the gestating it's-all-our-fault Truther strain infecting his mind can here already be seen incipiently kicking at the seamy underbelly of his rhetoric:

[Link: townhall.com...]

It only needed maturation into the idea that not only are we to blame for it due to our foreign policy actions, but that we actually domestically enabled it, for the monstrous Bethlehem-sloucher to be born

And here's the opening to Pat Buchanan's disgusting defence of Hitler posted on Ron Paul's website by Pat Buchanan himself earler this month (complete with a link to the horrendous Takimag to read the rst of it):

[Link: www.dailypaul.com...]

And of course, Ron Paul is also to be found on the front page of Pat Buchanan's own website, along with other revolting notables such as Chuck Baldwin, Paul Craig Roberts of vdare.com, Justin Raimondo of ASntiWar.com, and Bill Bonner at LewRockwell.com:

[Link: buchanan.org...]

These two slimeballs seem to be huddled together in the same dank racist hole under the same under-the-radar rock.

Expect Paul-Buchanan or Buchanan-Paul in 2012.

262 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:31:20pm

re: #258 iceweasel

ACORN gets my tax money to help fund their "programs." One of those "programs" helps put people into homes and mortgages they can't afford. Those people default and we get a factor in what caused the economic chaos of the last year.

Buchanan's a nasty, old windbag.

You can't see the difference?

263 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:31:28pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

She also admits to being a prostitute which is not that unusual for social workers. Many of them have lead very tough lives before they start helping others.

Whoa, KT...I only know 3 social workers, and I don't know of any survey about where they come from, but I'd be pretty surprised if you could back that statement up. The 3 I know sure weren't, ever.

264 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:33:38pm

re: #262 funky chicken

ACORN gets my tax money to help fund their "programs." One of those "programs" helps put people into homes and mortgages they can't afford. Those people default and we get a factor in what caused the economic chaos of the last year.

Buchanan's a nasty, old windbag.

You can't see the difference?

The mortgage crisis owed more to the selling of bundled mortgage securities than individuals defaulting on mortgages.

Buchanan's a lot more than a nasty old windbag, I'm afraid.

265 David Simon  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:35:01pm

Unintentionally hilarious comment:

Democracy is based on the assumption that people are rational beings who factually examine arguments and are not easily manipulated. Studies are not finding this to be the case.

And with that, the wacky prick proves his own thesis:

The US government’s response to 9/11, regardless of who is responsible

Is there any doubt who is responsible? The evidence that 19 Arabs hijacked planes and flew them into buildings is irrefutable. If there's another point to be made (perhaps Georgie Ann Geyer's "macho Likudniks" framing a bunch of innocents Arabs, eh Paul?), have the guts to make it, asshole.

266 Gabriel Hanna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:35:59pm

@ #154 Fianna

That report which CNN describes as showing no links between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein documents actually says this:

p 34: "When attacking Western interests, the competitive terror cartel
came into play, particularly in the late 1990s. Captured documents reveal that the
regime was willing to co-opt or support organizations it knew to be part of al
Qaeda-as long as that organization's near-term goals supported Saddam's long-
term vision."

p 41: "An example of indirect cooperation is the movement led by Osama bin
Laden. During the 1990s, both Saddam and bin Laden wanted the West, particularly the United States, out of Muslim lands...
"But the similarities ended there: bin Laden wanted-and still wants-
to restore the Islamic caliphate while Saddam, despite his later Islamic rhetoric,
dreamed more narrowly of being the secular ruler of a united Arab nation. These competing visions made any significant long-term compromise between them highly unlikely... In pursuit of their own separate but surprisingly "parallel" visions, Saddam and bin Laden often found a common enemy
in the United States.
"...Saddam's security organizations and bin Laden's terrorist network operated with similar aims, at least for the short term. Considerable operational overlap was inevitable when monitoring, contacting, financing, and training the regional groups involved in terrorism. Saddam provided training and motivation to revolutionary pan-Arab nationalists in the region. Osama bin Laden provided training and motivation for violent revolutionary Islamists in the region. They were recruiting within the same demographic, spouting much the same rhetoric, and promoting a common historical narrative that promised a return to a glorious past. That these movements (pan-Arab and pan-Islamic) had many similarities and strategic parallels does not mean they saw themselves in that light. Nevertheless, these similarities created more
than just the appearance of cooperation. Common interests, even without common cause, increased the aggregate terror threat.
"For years, Saddam maintained training camps for foreign "fighters" drawn from these diverse groups. In some cases, particularly for Palestinians, Saddam was also a strong financial supporter. Saddam supported groups that either associated directly with al Qaeda (such as the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, led at one time by bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri) or that generally shared al Qaeda's stated goals and objectives.

But the reporters at CNN concluded it said "no links". And then you repeated that, thinking it settled the argument.

But at CNN all they read was the executive summary, which said "no smoking gun" of DIRECT coordination. Sure, Saddam and OBl weren't plotting together in a bunker somewhere.

But Saddam supplied money, arms and training to people he knew worked for Al Qaeda.

That's why you need to go back to primary sources.

Here's the document:
[Link: a.abcnews.com...]

267 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:43:46pm

re: #264 iceweasel

The mortgage crisis owed more to the selling of bundled mortgage securities than individuals defaulting on mortgages.

Buchanan's a lot more than a nasty old windbag, I'm afraid.

the bundled mortgage securities don't go tits up if individuals don't default on their loans in large numbers...right?

268 Guanxi88  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:48:57pm

re: #267 funky chicken

the bundled mortgage securities don't go tits up if individuals don't default on their loans in large numbers...right?

Ding for the TANGO UNIFORM

269 funky chicken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:51:03pm

re: #268 Guanxi88

LOL, might get deleted...I didn't think about it when I typed it. I'm gonna claim sinus congestion confusion :-).

270 Throbert McGee  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:51:12pm

Hey, reine.de.tout -- is the cookbook going to include a page with a detailed metric conversion table like this? It definitely should, because outside of the U.S., many people are accustomed to measuring granular ingredients like flour, sugar, rice, etc. by mass in grams, making a straightforward volume conversion (e.g., 1 cup = 240 cc) impractical. Also very helpful: a table of Fahrenheit, Celsius, and "gas mark" temperature equivalents.

(Though I don't think we need to utterly spoil non-U.S. Lizards by including a glossary to explain that "graham crackers" ≈ "digestive biscuits", for example -- let the lazy mofos Google.)

/scaly coldblooded hands across the water

271 Sharmuta  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:55:18pm

re: #270 Throbert McGee

That's a great idea, Throbert, and I've emailed your comment to Reine in case she's not around at the moment. I did write up a chart for quantity cooking, but I didn't think of a metric conversion. Thanks!

272 Gus  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:55:32pm

Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury (under Reagan) promoting a 9/11 investigation while being promoted by paleo-con and 3rd Reich sympathizer, Pat Buchanan at Vdare. Not only does he promote 9/11 "trutherism" but goes on to say:

The first decade of the 21st century has been squandered in pointless wars, and it appears the second decade will also be squandered in the same pointless and bankrupting pursuit.

Priceless in light of recent events. Of course the irony will fly right over the usual suspects heads at mach 3.

I can hear the crickets from 1000 miles away.

Paul Craig Roberts
Pat Buchanan
Vdare

Perfect together.

273 Guanxi88  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:57:24pm

re: #269 funky chicken

LOL, might get deleted...I didn't think about it when I typed it. I'm gonna claim sinus congestion confusion :-).

That's how I avoid getting done in for a good many of my work-place foul ups.

274 Throbert McGee  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:59:30pm

Re #270: A couple years ago I was trying to share a recipe for "Hello Dolly" cookies with someone who lived in Israel, and there ended up being a lot of back-and-forth over such points as "how many grams is 1/2 cup of crushed nuts?" and "how much butter is in a stick?" and "what the fuck is a graham cracker?" (Which is how I learned, from a third party, that "digestive biscuits" are kinda/sorta the same as "graham crackers.")

275 Throbert McGee  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:05:06pm

re: #271 Sharmuta

That's a great idea, Throbert, and I've emailed your comment to Reine in case she's not around at the moment. I did write up a chart for quantity cooking, but I didn't think of a metric conversion. Thanks!

Thanks for forwarding that to Reine, Sharmuta!

276 freetoken  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:08:49pm

re: #274 Throbert McGee

..."what the fuck is a graham cracker?" (Which is how I learned, from a third party, that "digestive biscuits" are kinda/sorta the same as "graham crackers.")

According to Wikipedia:

Graham crackers were originally conceived of as a health food as part of the Graham Diet, a regimen to suppress what he considered unhealthy carnal urges, the source of many maladies according to Graham. Reverend Graham would often lecture about the adverse effects of masturbation, or "self-abuse" as he called it. One of his many theories was that one could curb one's sexual appetite by eating bland foods.

Um... are the graham crackers working, Throbert?

277 wiffersnapper  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:09:01pm

*facepalm*

278 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:09:52pm

re: #276 freetoken

Um... are the graham crackers working, Throbert?

I have the ultimate NSFW video response to this theory, but I won't post it here. I am not that bold...

279 ~Fianna  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:18:31pm

re: #266 Gabriel Hanna

@ #154 Fianna

But the reporters at CNN concluded it said "no links". And then you repeated that, thinking it settled the argument.

But at CNN all they read was the executive summary, which said "no smoking gun" of DIRECT coordination. Sure, Saddam and OBl weren't plotting together in a bunker somewhere.

But Saddam supplied money, arms and training to people he knew worked for Al Qaeda.

That's why you need to go back to primary sources.

Here's the document:
[Link: a.abcnews.com...]

I've read that. It was quite a while ago. While you can pick out quotes that show that operatives of Al Quaeda were working in Iraq and trying to gain the support of the Iraqi regieme, and that Hussein worked with organizations that also worked with Al Quaeda, that still is not a link between Saddam Hussein being involved with Al Quaeda or that Hussein had anything to do with the 9-11 bombings.

Iraq was not involved in 9-11. Iraq was not allied with Al Quaeda. There are no links between Osama Bin Ladin and Saddam Hussein. We don't think so, the British don't think so, the Israelis don't think so, the 9-11 commission didn't think so.

The only people who still think so are bloggers on websites that Charles doesn't like being linked here.

Wiki has the whole thing laid out: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

280 Blizzard  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:26:05pm

Was not aware that Buchanan was a troofer. WTF?

281 jim in virginia  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 5:52:10pm

Oh. My. Gawd.
This has probably already been noted, but crazy uncle Pat also has posts from LewRockwell. com and from Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com ( also on troofers).
Shark has been jumped and the far right and far left have met.
I like the argument that if the WTC fire was strong enough to melt steel but not to burn paper. Since, certainly, nothing could have been blown out of the windows of the building.
No comments left yet over there- has anyone tried to register? Not sure I want to wade into that cesspool.

282 haakondahl  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 6:06:20pm

re: #11 Athos

Pat is nothing but stupid stuck on even more stupid.

The shame is that so many conservatives and people who should know better give this PoS the attention and airtime he gets.

"I am stuck on stupid,
'cause stupid's stuck on me!"

283 haakondahl  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 6:12:11pm

For the record:
Van Jones needed to go.
Pitchfork Pat has needed to go for quite a while.
I have been clear about both of these positions, all without screaming.
I don't expect much in the way of consistency from the screamers.

284 JEA62  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 6:19:16pm

The same ol argument - 'we have no positive evdience of anything, therefore it must be true'

The truthers on the left are just as STUPID

285 mph  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 7:00:50pm

re: #29 Athos

Yeah - this is part of the problem that has to be confronted - conservatives have to see, identify, and call out those so-called conservatives who embrace, advocate, and enable stupidity.

It's not stupidity -- it is evil.

286 harpsicon  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 7:40:30pm

re: #264 iceweasel

The mortgage crisis owed more to the selling of bundled mortgage securities than individuals defaulting on mortgages.

Buchanan's a lot more than a nasty old windbag, I'm afraid.

Actually, no.

The mortgages only existed in the first place because Fan/Fred would automatically buy them up if they passed some pretty basic requirements. And of course the mortgage lenders were encouraged by the CRA to break all their old standards for giving loans.

But hey, why worry, when whatever you can get to pass muster makes the govt pleased, and you can just sell it and make some easy profit. Everybody's happy!

The people who think up all these social programs never seem to consider that a whole lot of people will do what's good for themselves without considering the global intent of social do-gooders -- revealing one of the inherent weaknesses in all these kinds of programs.

In short, the trading of bundled mortgages was not a bad thing at all, except that all kinds of really awful loans facilitated by CRA and Fan/Fred were in the bundles. Had they not been in the bundles, there's no problem. They should probably have been rated lower, but with the apparent backing of the federal govt, they looked just fine on the surface. Any rating agency that had aggressively questioned them would probably have been dragged in front of congress by Barney Frank, who was defending all this nonsense as late as the summer of 2008.

The underlying problem was the legal facilitation of bad loans. Without that, no bad bundles, no bad paper, etc.

287 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 7:53:09pm
Will the people who screamed for Van Jones’ resignation based on unsubstantiated accusations that he was a Truther now scream just as loud about Pat Buchanan?


Just watch me.

Pat Buchanan can go join Van Jones in the idiots and knaves gallery. Oh, wait. I've already consigned Buchanan to that gallery. Pat, meet Van. Van, meet Pat.

288 Sean  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 7:53:48pm

re: #286 harpsicon

You forgot the Ninja loans- no JOB no INCOME no ASSETS. How was that supposed to work out?

289 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 8:06:14pm

re: #206 Charles

This is one of 'ErifOF's more recent comments:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yes, he's calling for mass murder.

In case you're wondering why he's now banned.

Technically, he's calling for another "expulsion of the Moors". That didn't turn into mass murder. So long as the expelled people can make it in safety to a place that will take them in, it doesn't amount to mass murder.

The crime against humanity that he's calling for is a different crime. But it's the exact same crime that the Muslims committed against the Jews of North Africa and the Middle East after the 49 and 56 wars, that the Muslims of Bangladesh and of Kashmir committed against the Hindu of Bangladesh and Kashmir, and, if we go back a spell, that the United States committed against the Cherokee. (And the Cherokee suffered a terrible death toll on their trail of tears, so maybe that did amount to mass murder.)

It's an evil thing to incite people to crimes against humanity. I'd ban him from my blog too if I had one. And maybe if one reads carefully enough, the post calls on its face for mass expulsion, but includes winks and nods calling for mass murder. But I didn't see that.

290 lurking faith  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 8:29:24pm

re: #289 lostlakehiker

Screw the technicalities. Mass expulsion can't be accomplished without violence and death.

And where would the expelled be sent to? How would they obtain housing, food, water, medical care?

If you rob someone and dump him in the wilderness, careless of whether he lives or dies, you have murdered him if he does indeed die.

291 lurking faith  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 8:34:52pm

re: #47 Emmmieg

Charles--and this is a serious question--could you give us a list of things that Pat Buchanan could be dismissed from?

I don't follow him, so I honestly don't know.

And that article is a piece of garbage.

Here's my list:

1. Polite society.

292 hokiepride  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 8:47:52pm

Well,
Paleopat and that vile anti-semite Paul Craig Roberts promote 9./11 Trooferism, I am surprised...NOT.Actually if anybody wants to do dumpster diving go to the cache of stormfront or VNN, the philosophy (esp foreign policy) is so similar to paleo philosophy. The same isolationism, 9/11 trooferism, and anti-semitism. And mention this to a paleo and the accusations of Kos plant, leftie, race baiter etc.. start to fly. Unless conservatism can boot out the paleos (paleocons, paleolibertarians) and the so-called compassionate conservatives (big gov't conservatives of whom "W" unfortunately was a part), Americans are gonna say hasta-la-vista to conservatives

293 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 9:26:53pm

re: #289 lostlakehiker

This is complete crap. If you honestly believe that a mass expulsion of all Muslims could be accomplished without mass murder, you're either in a fantasy world, or you know how dishonest it is to pretend, but don't care.

If you're going to argue for this kind of repulsive thing, you are at the wrong website and you won't be here long.

294 lurking faith  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 10:50:16pm

re: #293 Charles

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think he was arguing for expulsion; he does call it a crime against humanity.

I'm not sure why he was trying to split that particular hair (expulsion vs. murder), though.

295 lostlakehiker  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 11:17:07pm

re: #293 Charles

This is complete crap. If you honestly believe that a mass expulsion of all Muslims could be accomplished without mass murder, you're either in a fantasy world, or you know how dishonest it is to pretend, but don't care.

If you're going to argue for this kind of repulsive thing, you are at the wrong website and you won't be here long.

I'm against mass expulsions. I realize that sometimes what was billed as mass expulsion has indeed escalated to mass murder. The Armenians from Turkey, for just one example.

I've been in a nitpicking mood and it seems that this came across as a defense or endorsement of expulsion . That wasn't my intent.

296 R.B.Glennie  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:06:10am

hello Charles -

I'm not sure what you're implying, but do you really think no criticism has been levelled by conservatives as the `paleo' Buchanan (he's really a Francoite fascist, but no matter)?

It seems to me that, since 9/11 at the latest, the American conservative movement has undergone schism, with the Francoites like Buchanan at one end (along with his little sidekicks, such as `Justin' Raimondo) and the `neo-cons' at the other.

Practically since Sept. 11, Buchanan and his ilk have been implicitly, and more so as the time went on, openly accusing the `neo-cons' (this is just a euphemism, for them, for `conniving Jew') of treachery against the U.S.

to lump all conservatives as Buchanan supporters, it seems to me, is to engage in the sort of thinking you're criticizing lately, wherein `liberals' are equated with Marxists.

297 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:38:38am

I can't help but smile when I see the VDARE logo. As you may know, they are named after Virginia Dare, supposedly the first English child born in North America. She disappeared along with the rest of the Lost Colony. If she survived, and left descendants which survive to the present day, they are probably all mixed black/Indian.

298 Wantedtoregisterforalongtime  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 7:05:34am

Charles, your effort to clean the GOP of its extremist and its nuts are admirable and I wish you the best of luck! But you lose your sense of proportion and your objectivity in this attempt. Take this case. Van Jones was a close adviser to the President. Exposed as a nut, he ought to resign. Buchanan is a nut and has been for a long time. But where would you have Buchanan resign from? I wasn't aware he was doing anything, other than eating crap, and that is his hobby, not an actual job. Now, if he was a close adviser to Bush, and conservatives did not call for his head, that would be a different story. But to his credit, Bush did not bring lunatics to the White House.

You also mocked the Republicans who opposed the start of school speech. But you overlooked that what people objected to, the sane ones at least, was not the speech itself, but the idea of all students having to watch the speech and the idea of students writing letters to the President about how they are going to help him. That is creepy, you must admit, and thankfully it was dropped from the whole thing. But you never mentioned these plans on your blog, as far as I know, which allowed you to paint the GOPers as afraid of a little, innocent, virtuous speech. I believe that is not fair.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
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