The Two Million Protester Myth and the Right Wing Blogosphere

Blogosphere • Views: 2,348

Brendan Nyhan has a good post on the spread of the two million protestor myth across the right wing blogosphere — one of the most embarrassing episodes I’ve witnessed among people who pride themselves on “fact checking.”

After all, who cares about basic fact checking when there’s an ideology to be promoted?

Jump to bottom

393 comments
1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:52:23am

Shhh, Charles, you're spoiling the narrative.

2 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:55:25am

Where is Carl Sagon when you need a good count.

3 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:55:53am

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

4 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:55:57am

Two get a better sense of scale during the next protest, the protestors should all be required to harmonize "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", while the camera pans back.

5 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:55:58am

At least they aren't actually calling it the "Two Million Man March".

...yet.

6 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:56:28am

re: #2 filetandrelease

Billions and billions.

Oh, and a bonus globular cluster reference!

7 turn  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:56:41am

re: #2 filetandrelease

Where is Carl Sagon when you need a good count.

billions and billions, ha

8 lurking faith  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:57:23am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Two get a better sense of scale during the next protest, the protestors should all be required to harmonize "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", while the camera pans back.

*spew*

*wipes screen*

9 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:57:28am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Two get a better sense of scale during the next protest, the protestors should all be required to harmonize "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", while the camera pans back.

I only sing that to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme. It fits.

10 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:58:00am
11 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:58:20am

re: #4 Occasional Reader

Two get a better sense of scale during the next protest, the protestors should all be required to harmonize "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", while the camera pans back.

Let me get Marion Barry on the line. He's the only guy I know of that could score that much Coke in DC without a problem.

/

12 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:58:35am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

Way to derail the thread, Jackass. Would you like some first-hand accounts of that very thing happening?

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:58:38am

Fail. I'm willing to bet there are very few corrections posted by bloggers who fell for this. I really don't think they care about the truth since they've discover Alinsky.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:58:42am

re: #2 filetandrelease

Where is Carl Sagon when you need a good count.

Heck, where's Dracula?

15 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:59:07am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

I verified it with him (my uncle).

Fuck you, jackass.

16 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 8:59:24am

I see we still have people clinging to this falsehood.

17 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:00:24am
18 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:00:30am

We urgently need Count von Count on the job.

19 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:00:48am

Dear Charles,

twobru just posted what seemed to be a very fair assessment based on a lot of decent source material on the links page. If there's a flaw in his logic or calculations I couldn't find it. But then, I'm not a math or computer guy. I just thought it was worth checking out. Thanks.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:00:54am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

All that happened to my uncle was that his brother freaked out when the uncle came out, and there was a fistfight that ruined a family picnic. Turns out that calling a man who's just gotten back from a combat tour in Vietnam a 'goddamn queer' is a poor idea, even if you are his baby brother.

The potato salad was an innocent bystander, but it got smeared into the grass too.

21 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:01:07am

Something not mentioned in the article: Wasn't there a press release from the Dems the night before the protest about the possibility of huge attendance? I think the wing nuts were played.

22 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:01:20am

re: #12 Spenser (with an S)

Way to derail the thread, Jackass. Would you like some first-hand accounts of that very thing happening?

Please. If you can find them.

"My uncle told me" will not suffice.

23 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:01:38am

re: #18 Occasional Reader

We urgently need Count von Count on the job.

Best suggestion in a long time. He loves to count...

24 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:01:57am

re: #18 Occasional Reader

"2!... 2 Million! Bwahahahaha!"

/Spooky organ music

25 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:03:02am

re: #15 OldLineTexan

I verified it with him (my uncle).

Fuck you, jackass.

You are not your uncle. I don't know him, or you. Evidence is hearsay and rejected by the court of Cato.

Love to you, too, sweetheart.

26 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:03:48am

Charles you broke the fauxtography of the Lebanon war. Then please show me that this photo is fake. I'm not advocating 2 million people were there. I just want to understand why LGF is clinging to 60k.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:04:04am

re: #25 Cato the Elder

You are not your uncle. I don't know him, or you. Evidence is hearsay and rejected by the court of Cato.

Love to you, too, sweetheart.

Can we NOT start fighting about Vietnam this early in the morning? Everyone? Come on.

28 turn  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:04:30am

re: #19 princetrumpet

Do you have a link to that?

29 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:04:50am

re: #18 Occasional Reader

[Link:wikipedia.org - Count von Count ]


The Count's main purpose is educating children on simple mathematical concepts, most notably counting. The Count has a love of counting (arithmomania); he will count anything and everything, regardless of size, amount, or how much annoyance he is causing the other Muppets or human cast.

Next time, we can gather all the rumor mongers together and let them sit quietly while The Count does his thing. Accuracy guaranteed.

30 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:05:12am

re: #25 Cato the Elder

You are not your uncle. I don't know him, or you.

In other words, you'll simply reject out of hand any evidence that could possibly be offered to you in this thread, that differs from your viewpoint on the matter. Got it.

31 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:05:15am

re: #26 Buckeye Nation

Because that's the only official number we have. I think it was from the fire Dept.

32 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:05:34am

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

Can we NOT start fighting about Vietnam this early in the morning? Everyone? Come on.

I'm done.

First-hand accounts (i.e. "it happened to me") welcome. Anything else is hearsay.

33 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:05:51am

re: #29 Locker

[Link:wikipedia.org - Count von Count ]

Next time, we can gather all the rumor mongers together and let them sit quietly while The Count does his thing. Accuracy guaranteed.

Given how slow he counts, with that annoying laugh after every number, we would be waiting an awfully long time for the final tally.

34 lurking faith  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:05:56am

re: #22 Cato the Elder

Please. If you can find them.

"My uncle told me" will not suffice.

I know someone it happened to. I trust his truthfulness. I do not have to justify this to you; nor do I have to announce him publicly.

I suggest that you step back from insulting good men that people here know, trust, and care about.

35 That's Glenn Beck to you  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:12am

Well I read in a paper somewhere that a university study from someplace said that fact checking is overrated.

Q.E.D.

36 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:16am

re: #22 Cato the Elder

So you need a hippie-analysis done on the spit that my Father in Law got on his uniform that he was warned not to wear in the airport, but did anyway because he felt he should?

Why?

37 MobileVideoEngineer  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:17am
38 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:21am

re: #25 Cato the Elder

You are not your uncle. I don't know him, or you. Evidence is hearsay and rejected by the court of Cato.

Love to you, too, sweetheart.

And you're just a blowhard on the Internet. Lots of those around.

What's funny is how far you've run with this ball, which was just an aside to another discussion.

But you keep bringing it up, like semi-digested pablum from the throats of colicy infants.

Which, it occurs to me, is about the value I place on "the court of Cato".

Enjoy your fantasies, including the obligatory homoerotic ones. NTTAWWT.

39 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:23am

re: #29 Locker

[Link:wikipedia.org - Count von Count ]


Next time, we can gather all the rumor mongers together and let them sit quietly while The Count does his thing. Accuracy guaranteed.


Problem is, the Count is actually a pimp. (Per Dave Chappelle.)

Which means that ACORN will get involved...

40 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:35am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

And that number was reported as of 9:30 am, before the height of the rally.

41 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:40am

re: #30 Occasional Reader

In other words, you'll simply reject out of hand any evidence that could possibly be offered to you in this thread, that differs from your viewpoint on the matter. Got it.

No, I'm saying if it happened to you, tell me about it. I don't know the Texas guy or his uncle. And my uncles lied to me all the time.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:06:58am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Because that's the only official number we have. I think it was from the fire Dept.

Cops and firefighters are taught to do crowd counts as part of crowd control training. Unless there's an agency that did a professional count, I tend to go with whatever they come up with.

43 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:07:32am

Whatever.

44 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:07:41am

re: #32 Cato the Elder

I'm done.

First-hand accounts (i.e. "it happened to me") welcome. Anything else is hearsay.

Actually, a first-hand account on this thread would be "hearsay", too. (Since we're not in court.)

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:07:59am

re: #33 JamesTKirk

Given how slow he counts, with that annoying laugh after every number, we would be waiting an awfully long time for the final tally.


But we would have a professional count by a completely politically neutral foreign observer.

46 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:08:46am

Since we're talking about bullshit: Charles has been warning us about Rassmusen. I've always used them and they seemed as reliable as anyone else but...
President's Numbers Rebound

Check out the graphic at the bottom. You can mouse over to get more info. Rasmussen is one of the most consistently biased polls out there. Beware.

47 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:08:47am

re: #41 Cato the Elder

No, I'm saying if it happened to you, tell me about it. I don't know the Texas guy[...]

See? Stop right there. So if OLT had said "it happened to me", you'd reply "I don't know you".

48 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:08:54am

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

But we would have a professional count by a completely politically neutral foreign observer.

Got a thing against Transylvanians?

49 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:09:22am

re: #28 turn

Do you have a link to that?

Yes, gimme a second... it's up in the link viewer. BRB.

50 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:09:47am

re: #48 Creeping Eruption

Got a thing against Transylvanians?

Are they sweet transvestites?

51 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:02am

I don't understand why 60-70,000 is not enough for these people. From what I understand, that is the US Parks service estimate. On the same day, there were reports of gatherings in support of Obama and the health care reform (sponsored by the DNC) that drew 'hundreds' - the report was inexact. The video that I saw with this on CNN showed perhaps 40-50 people in front of the stage where the speakers were and no large crowd shots.

Saying one or two million is absurd, and when it is 'supported' by pictures from other rallies destroys credibility.

From the start, I thought these 'Tea Parties' were gimmicks. I would like to see a responsible plan to limit spending and at the same time work to pay down the debt (not just get rid of the deficit for a year or two). If it means higher taxes, then so be it. It's not responsible to just preach tax cuts in a vacuum.

52 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:03am

re: #40 Buckeye Nation

The difference between 60k and 2 million is a bit of a stretch for this line of logic.

53 J.D.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:15am

I think you can find people on both sides of any protest who will insist their number was higher, or lower, whatever...

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:23am

re: #48 Creeping Eruption

Got a thing against Transylvanians?

I tend to figure that undead Romanian nobility are probably vicious anti-Semites, but other than that, no.

55 badger1970  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:33am

It didn't work for Farakhan, it ain't going to work now.

56 The Optimist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:46am

I went to the Million Man March and thought that there is no way that crowd approached a million people. College towns shut down roads for miles around just so 80,000 fans can come and go. The Million Man March was small.

I do believe the estimates of 60-70k people on Sept 12. This group look like it could fill a small footballs stadium

57 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:48am

I agree with those who say it was about 60,000. This is based on the DC Fire Department numbers, and the DC Metro numbers that were posted yesterday. There is no reason to believe them wrong. There is, however, much reason to believe the 2,000,000 or even 1,000,000 numbers to be very wrong. The websites and people promoting the larger numbers lied about the images they had of the rally, and have been known to lie about their numbers for the purposes of propaganda.

58 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:10:56am

re: #50 JamesTKirk

Are they sweet transvestites?

Oh christ here we go again.

/em gets his toast umbrella.

59 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:11:09am

re: #36 Spenser (with an S)

So you need a hippie-analysis done on the spit that my Father in Law got on his uniform that he was warned not to wear in the airport, but did anyway because he felt he should?

Why?

So you offer me "first-hand" accounts and then come at me with this crap? Please.

I'm done. Keep wiping the fantasy spit off, martyrs.

60 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:11:37am

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

I tend to figure that undead Romanian nobility are probably vicious anti-Semites, but other than that, no.

Geez, its not like he is Vlad the Impaler or anything. The Count is just a numbers guy.

61 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:11:58am

re: #47 Occasional Reader

See? Stop right there. So if OLT had said "it happened to me", you'd reply "I don't know you".

No. I'd take it seriously.

62 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:12:06am

An aside; I, for one, am in favor of abolishing the hearsay evidentiary rule (which is riddled with exceptions anyway). Let the court/jury evaluate the out-of-court statement, with the caveat that, well, it was not made in court under oath.

63 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:12:32am

re: #26 Buckeye Nation

Charles you broke the fauxtography of the Lebanon war. Then please show me that this photo is fake. I'm not advocating 2 million people were there. I just want to understand why LGF is clinging to 60k.

WTF? The better question is why is the crankosphere ridiculously clinging to the mythology of 2 million!

LGF is 'clinging' to reality. I realise that's not very popular on teh right side of the blogopshere at the moment, but come on.

64 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:12:35am
65 lurking faith  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:12:59am

re: #43 Cato the Elder

Whatever.

Sure. Throw a stink bomb, and then pretend you didn't want people to react to it.

I don't say FOAD to regulars very often, but in this case I'll make an exception.

66 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:13:01am

re: #28 turn

Do you have a link to that?

Here's twobru's link:

Your text to link...

See what you think. It made sense to me but as i said... I'm not a math or computer guy.

67 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:14:24am

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Since we're talking about bullshit: Charles has been warning us about Rassmusen. I've always used them and they seemed as reliable as anyone else but...
President's Numbers Rebound

Check out the graphic at the bottom. You can mouse over to get more info. Rasmussen is one of the most consistently biased polls out there. Beware.

THANK YOU KT. I've been saying this about Rasmussen for months. So has avanti, IIRC.

68 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:14:33am

Had the organizers of the rally presented a reliable and believable attendance figure, then the story would be focusing on how many people came out based upon that figure. However, by lying about the number, the story now shifts to how many people were actually there and their message, if there was one, gets lost their bogus numbers claims.

It's called shooting yourself in the foot.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:14:38am

re: #51 Dreader1962

I don't understand why 60-70,000 is not enough for these people. From what I understand, that is the US Parks service estimate. On the same day, there were reports of gatherings in support of Obama and the health care reform (sponsored by the DNC) that drew 'hundreds' - the report was inexact. The video that I saw with this on CNN showed perhaps 40-50 people in front of the stage where the speakers were and no large crowd shots.

Saying one or two million is absurd, and when it is 'supported' by pictures from other rallies destroys credibility.

From the start, I thought these 'Tea Parties' were gimmicks. I would like to see a responsible plan to limit spending and at the same time work to pay down the debt (not just get rid of the deficit for a year or two). If it means higher taxes, then so be it. It's not responsible to just preach tax cuts in a vacuum.

I think the people who can't deal with the count really want to present the current situation as a national crisis. I would think that turning out 70,000 people to protest irresponsible fiscal policy (that's the most respectable spin I can put on their message, which I don't fully get), would be a pretty impressive feat, and might serve such purposes as putting the Democrats on notice to pull back, and galvanizing Republican and independent voters for the upcoming midterms.

But they don't want Obama to be a fiscally irresponsible president, they want him to be a monster. They don't want a political opposition having its say, they want an oppressed American electorate rising up and throwing off the chains of socialist oppression.They want the situation to be a lot bigger and more dramatic than it is, and they won't settle for anything less.

70 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:15:17am

re: #2 filetandrelease

Where is Carl Sagon when you need a good count.

[Pet peeve -- my father was an astrophysicist as is my g/f]

SAGAN, no SAGON!

We now return you to our other pet peeves, still in progress...

71 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:15:17am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

You sure can be a dick when you want to be, I will give you that.

72 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:15:21am

re: #63 iceweasel

I'm not clinging to 2 mil. Everyone else here is clinging to 60k.

73 turn  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:15:27am

re: #66 princetrumpet

Here's twobru's link:

Your text to link...

See what you think. It made sense to me but as i said... I'm not a math or computer guy.

Thanks. I'm getting away from that jerk for awhile. BBL.

74 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:16:01am

re: #67 iceweasel

THANK YOU KT. I've been saying this about Rasmussen for months. So has avanti, IIRC.

I was surprised to see how far off they are. They're actually really bad.

75 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:16:25am

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Very well-done analysis.

There is this desire for an "October surprise" with lots of visual drama. I think it's the logical outgrowth of the sound-bite era and the dumbing-down of the "news".

76 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:16:30am

re: #70 bofhell
LOL, I couldn't quite remember, loved him anyway you spell it.

77 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:16:47am

Just an attempt to cut off the inevitable accusations that the "author" is some sortliberal hack. Here is a link to one of Brendan's articles (Monday) banging on Michael Moore and the NYT:

[Link:brendan-nyhan.com - NY Times omits Moore deceptions in doc story ]

78 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:16:52am

re: #70 bofhell

[Pet peeve -- my father was an astrophysicist as is my g/f]

SAGAN, no SAGON!

We now return you to our other pet peeves, still in progress...

SAGON!

SHIT!

/Charlie Sheen

79 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:17:43am

re: #57 Honorary Yooper

I agree with those who say it was about 60,000. This is based on the DC Fire Department numbers, and the DC Metro numbers that were posted yesterday. There is no reason to believe them wrong. There is, however, much reason to believe the 2,000,000 or even 1,000,000 numbers to be very wrong. The websites and people promoting the larger numbers lied about the images they had of the rally, and have been known to lie about their numbers for the purposes of propaganda.

This is a bit disgusting, but one way to tell the number of people in the crowd is the volume of waste produced. I'm sure that they set up some provision for toilets, but most likely nowhere near what they set up for the Independence Day celebration in DC, which I've attended. I went to a long line of port-a-potties (about 30) to relieve myself in the afternoon. I quickly closed the door as the *ahem* 'waste' was above the rim.

I don't think the crowds on the 4th were as large as 1 million, but it would be a good comparison to debunk these claims.

80 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:18:05am

re: #72 Buckeye Nation

I'm not clinging to 2 mil. Everyone else here is clinging to 60k.

"I'm not living in a fantasy world. Everyone else here refuses to see that I really am Napoleon."

81 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:18:12am

re: #10 Buckeye Nation

Is that the picture everyone spent a lot of energy examining yesterday?

82 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:18:15am

re: #75 OldLineTexan

Very well-done analysis.

I don't know you, so why should I believe that statement?

/

83 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:18:16am

Here's my challenge:

Among the legions of Lizards, let one come forward with a personal account of the "spat-upon Vietnam vet" syndrome. Time, place, date, physical description of the hippie scum who did it (right - like hippies have ever had balls big enough to go up to a soldier in uniform and spit on him - there's an end to the myth right there), what said scumster said or did during the spit incident, and I'll relent.

Otherwise, it's "I heard this and my buddy told me that", which is the point here. A year from now, the teabaggers will be telling each other and anybody without the wit to walk away, "I was there with fifteen million other outraged Americans and Glenn Beck."

Sure you were.

84 Kragar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:18:52am
85 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:19:00am

re: #66 princetrumpet

It's complete nonsense. He's not even close.

86 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:19:19am

re: #82 Occasional Reader

I don't know you, so why should I believe that statement?

/

Point taken.

Challenge ignored.

87 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:19:31am

re: #79 Dreader1962

This is a bit disgusting, but one way to tell the number of people in the crowd is the volume of waste produced

So we've gone from "Just Poop!" to "Just Count the Poop!".

88 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:00am

I Love Nyhan's closing comment:

When people said the Internet would revolutionize democracy, I don't think this is what they had in mind.

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:05am

re: #72 Buckeye Nation

I'm not clinging to 2 mil. Everyone else here is clinging to 60k.

75,000, and not a weeping soccer mom more!

//

90 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:15am

re: #87 Occasional Reader

So we've gone from "Just Poop!" to "Just Count the Poop!".

I'm going to need you to prove that YOU wrote that.

91 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:16am

re: #85 Killgore Trout

It's complete nonsense. He's not even close.

Thanks. Could you help me understand what his flaws were?

92 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:16am

What is the correct estimate of the demonstration's size?

93 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:55am
94 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:20:55am

re: #72 Buckeye Nation

If there was any actual evidence to show 2 million people in attendance, I don't doubt that we would revise our estimate. However, the people screaming "ZOMG 2 MILLIONS!!!11!11ONE" are refusing to listen to any evidence to the contrary - indicative of a form of conspiracy theorism, really. Which fits in with the Paulians/Birchers/Nirthers theme.

95 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:21:16am

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I was surprised to see how far off they are. They're actually really bad.

They're rank. They're dishonest at every level, from the framing of questions to the samples chosen to the way they present conclusions.

Interestingly-- Scott Rasmussen does know how to poll. He can get an accurate count when he wants to. IIRC he suddenly started bringing his polling in line 2 weeks or so before the election, just so as to preserve his credibility.

So he's not merely a sloppy or lazy pollster; he's an actively bad one, shilling for the GOP.

96 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:21:24am

re: #92 Ringo the Gringo

What is the correct estimate of the demonstration's size?

Bigger than a breadbox and smaller than 57 states.

97 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:21:27am

File under What Media Bias?
Joe Scarborough, quoted in today's Politico

'If the Christian Coalition, in 1995, had a sting operation carried on against it by a liberal group, I guarantee you it would have been front page, New York Times, the next day,' Scarborough said, 'and people like me would have been called out, people saying, 'how could you ever, ever justify supporting a group that would teach people how to violate the tax code and promote prostitution.' 'Christopher Isham, Washington bureau chief for CBS News, disagrees. 'There's no ideological filter that goes on,'** Isham said. 'If it's a good story, it's a good story.' Isham said that CBS has been 'batting around' an ACORN story ...


**total SeeB.S.

98 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:21:43am
99 theheat  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:22:26am

At this point, wouldn't it be easier to publish the conservative sources that haven't been drinking to Kool-Aid about the turnout numbers? Certainly, the list is much smaller.

The bestest truest real conservatives seem to love inflating the numbers. The party of no becomes the party of yes when it comes to numbers, evidently.

100 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:22:47am

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Here's my challenge:

Among the legions of Lizards, let one come forward with a personal account of the "spat-upon Vietnam vet" syndrome. Time, place, date, physical description of the hippie scum who did it (right - like hippies have ever had balls big enough to go up to a soldier in uniform and spit on him - there's an end to the myth right there), what said scumster said or did during the spit incident, and I'll relent.

Otherwise, it's "I heard this and my buddy told me that", which is the point here. A year from now, the teabaggers will be telling each other and anybody without the wit to walk away, "I was there with fifteen million other outraged Americans and Glenn Beck."

Sure you were.

Cato, Jack Shafer over at Slate did several pieces on this allegation several years ago. He too asked for proof. You might want to google it up since I think he only found one verification of the one story but I could be wrong. It's been years since I read it. You're basically right.

101 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:22:49am

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

75,000, and not a weeping soccer mom more!

//

That's who I fear, in all truth.

I have been threatened with bodily harm by more soccer moms driving Suburbans with cellphones glued to their ears, weaving through lanes of traffic like drunken water buffaloes, than Code Pinkers/Paulians/Troofers/Beckian Hysterics COMBINED.

/

102 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:22:51am

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Among the legions of Lizards, let one come forward with a personal account of the "spat-upon Vietnam vet" syndrome.


I can't. Of course, that may have something to do with having been born in 1965. I also can't come up with any first-hand, personal "I walked on the moon" stories, either, come to think of it.

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the need for thought."

-Henri Poincaré


-

103 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:23:14am

OT/FYI:
For those living/working in Lower Manhattan, NYC has sent out the following notice:

Notification 1 issued 9/16/09 at 12 PM. The Port Authority will conducting tests of its Emergency Mass Notification System at the World Trade Center from 9/16/09 to 9/18/09 between the hours of 9 AM & 5 PM. Residents in lower Manhattan may hear loud sirens and pre-recorded messages.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:23:21am

re: #98 MikeySDCA

More than one.

There were a number of people there. Some of them had signs.

105 Baier  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:23:32am

re: #92 Ringo the Gringo

What is the correct estimate of the demonstration's size?

I didn't witness the crowd firsthand and I don't want to be bounced from the kangaroo court of Cato by saying approx. 60,000 to 70,000.

106 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:23:33am

re: #99 theheat

At this point, wouldn't it be easier to publish the conservative sources that haven't been drinking to Kool-Aid about the turnout numbers?

Isn't that what LGF did?

107 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:24:29am
108 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:24:31am

re: #101 OldLineTexan

That's who I fear, in all truth.

I have been threatened with bodily harm by more soccer moms driving Suburbans with cellphones glued to their ears, weaving through lanes of traffic like drunken water buffaloes, than Code Pinkers/Paulians/Troofers/Beckian Hysterics COMBINED.

/


On this one we could not possibly be in more agreement.

109 cronus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:24:37am

OT: Obama Popularity Dropping in New Jersey

There is a fair amount of political extremism among New Jersey voters, as there is everywhere right now. 21% of voters in the state don’t think Barack Obama is a natural born US citizen and 19% believe George W. Bush had advance knowledge of 9/11. 8% of voters go so far as to say they think Barack Obama is the Anti-Christ.

110 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:24:46am

re: #84 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Daily Show's John Stewart skewers ACORN and the MSM.

Won't play for me in Firefox or IE.

111 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:25:17am

re: #110 JamesTKirk

Won't play for me in Firefox or IE.

So you say.

112 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:25:31am

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Rasmussen is one of the most consistently biased polls out there. Beware.

Well, per this site, Rassmussen scored the highest on accuracy in the 2008 election.
[Link: electoralmap.net...]
that's also supported by this analysis
[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

I think all polsters have a bias. But the only thing that matters is their ultimate accuracy.

113 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:25:32am

re: #92 Ringo the Gringo

What is the correct estimate of the demonstration's size?

No one cares, anymore. The count is now simply a stick with which to beat one's opponent.

Asking an honest question just gets you jumped.

114 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:25:53am

re: #108 Locker

On this one we could not possibly be in more agreement.

Were we arguing?

/

115 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:25:54am

re: #111 OldLineTexan

So you say.

So does my uncle.

116 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:26:12am

re: #83 Cato the Elder

(right - like hippies Fred Phelps-groupies have ever had balls big enough to go up to a funeral full of soldiers in uniform - Rangers and Special Forces, no less - and spit on him jeer their fallen comrade as "Another Fag Soldier in Hell" - there's an end to the myth right there)


See? Fred Phelps is just a myth!

/

117 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:26:18am

Funny, everyone that is attacking me claims I'm saying 2 million people were there. When did I say there were 2 million people at the 9/12 rally?

I'm glad everyone is in attack mode though. When I show proof that there were more than 60k at the rally, people are calling me names, very mature.

What, people can't face the truth here? There were more then 60k at the rally.

118 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:26:20am

re: #113 Dianna

No one cares, anymore. The count is now simply a stick with which to beat one's opponent.

Asking an honest question just gets you jumped.

And not the good kind of jumped, either.

/shaddup, OR

119 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:26:25am

re: #57 Honorary Yooper

I agree with those who say it was about 60,000. This is based on the DC Fire Department numbers, and the DC Metro numbers that were posted yesterday. There is no reason to believe them wrong. There is, however, much reason to believe the 2,000,000 or even 1,000,000 numbers to be very wrong. The websites and people promoting the larger numbers lied about the images they had of the rally, and have been known to lie about their numbers for the purposes of propaganda.

The numbers from WMATA MUST be considered a minimum (as my note from yesterday described, the increase in Metrorail's ridership on the 12th was on the order of 65k). The reasons are varied:

1 -- The number is ONLY for Metrorail and does not include Metrobus (since the Metrobus numbers have clear and explicit patterns to them)
2 -- There are any of a number of hotels within walking distance of the Mall
3 -- There is no accounting for people taking buses and taxis downtown.
4 -- Still photography of the event sites (such as the now famous 14th live cam image) clearly support a number higher than 65k.

120 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:26:41am

re: #103 lawhawk

OT/FYI:
For those living/working in Lower Manhattan, NYC has sent out the following notice:

Notification 1 issued 9/16/09 at 12 PM. The Port Authority will conducting tests of its Emergency Mass Notification System at the World Trade Center from 9/16/09 to 9/18/09 between the hours of 9 AM & 5 PM. Residents in lower Manhattan may hear loud sirens and pre-recorded messages.

Nonetheless, I would not want to be a New York 911 operator today. How many people are going to think this is real (Thinking about Coast Guard exercise on 9/11 last week)?

121 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:01am

I don't know how many people were there, prolly part of the 500 million people out of work each month.
[Link: newsbusters.org...]

122 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:04am

re: #114 OldLineTexan

Were we arguing?

/

Not that I'm aware of it's probably just my wording, let me try again.

On this one we could not possibly be in more agreement.

PREACH ON BROTHER!

123 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:23am

re: #32 Cato the Elder

I'm done.

First-hand accounts (i.e. "it happened to me") welcome. Anything else is hearsay.

If I gave you a first-hand account, you'd simply say "I don't know you."
Why should I bother?
You've made up your mind.
Live with it.

124 cronus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:31am

re: #103 lawhawk

OT/FYI:
For those living/working in Lower Manhattan, NYC has sent out the following notice:

Notification 1 issued 9/16/09 at 12 PM. The Port Authority will conducting tests of its Emergency Mass Notification System at the World Trade Center from 9/16/09 to 9/18/09 between the hours of 9 AM & 5 PM. Residents in lower Manhattan may hear loud sirens and pre-recorded messages.

I hope CNN gets the heads-up...

125 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:34am

re: #122 Locker

PREACH ON BROTHER!

LOL.

No.

/

126 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:54am

re: #117 Buckeye Nation

Where's your proof? At least #119 bofhell provided factual evidence of a number higher than 65k. That's STILL a stretch to 2 million. And I don't see anyone calling you names.

127 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:27:56am

re: #112 captdiggs

Well, per this site, Rassmussen scored the highest on accuracy in the 2008 election.
[Link: electoralmap.net...]
that's also supported by this analysis
[Link: www.fordham.edu...]

I think all polsters have a bias. But the only thing that matters is their ultimate accuracy.

Not so. Rasmussen was a consistent outlier during the 2008 election cycle, constantly showing a mush closer race or McCain/Palin ahead. They were off by as much as ten points or more than averyone else.
Sometime in october they suddenly started polling correctly-- so that at the end of the cycle they'd get people like you saying "all that matters is their ultimate accuracy".

This is why I say Scott Rasmussen is not a lazy or sloppy pollster, but an actively BAD one.

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:28:09am

I say we put Detritus from Discworld in charge of counting

One..
Two...
Three...
Many...
Lots...

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:28:18am

re: #116 Occasional Reader

See? Fred Phelps is just a myth!

/

Fred Phelps, like the penguins, is psychotic.

130 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:28:18am

re: #109 cronus

OT: Obama Popularity Dropping in New Jersey

Those numbers indicate a great amount of Bad Craziness, of both the left and right.

131 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:28:39am

re: #123 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If I gave you a first-hand account, you'd simply say "I don't know you."
Why should I bother?
You've made up your mind.
Live with it.

No, I wouldn't. Live with that.

132 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:29:19am

re: #116 Occasional Reader

See? Fred Phelps is just a myth!

/

We certainly wish he were merely a nightmare, anyway.

133 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:29:56am

re: #116 Occasional Reader

See? Fred Phelps is just a myth!

/

Fred Phelps is a religiously motivated loon who would welcome martyrdom for his cause.

Not a description I'd apply to anti-war wussies hippies.

134 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:30:10am

A bit off topic, but an indication of a convergence of ideas. This is a comment from a story in the NY Post about the two people who did the ACORN stings:

NY Post: Duo who turned this trick

rothschild
09/16/2009 11:28 AM
These are great americans. Now we need them to penetrate synagogues and AIPAC to stop the people who plot the daily ruin of this country by shipping all of our money and weapons to Israel.

Gee - even this turns into a diatribe against the 'jooos'!

135 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:30:14am

re: #91 princetrumpet

Could you help me understand what his flaws were?

His conclusions are so far from the official estimates that he just can't be taken seriously. It's just mumbo-jumbo. When I look an freedomworks own picture of the event that crowd looks like it could fit in a small basketball arena. That's about 60-80,000. It's just common sense.

136 Kragar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:30:22am

re: #128 Emmmieg

I say we put Detritus from Discworld in charge of counting

One..
Two...
Three...
Many...
Lots...

Gully Dwarves from Krynn.
1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and 1
No more than 2.

137 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:30:30am

I wont link per Charles' rule, but Ace notes that the rally probably had 300,000 to 500,000 people. For the record, I stated that I thought the rally had around those numbers as well, particularly based on the video showing the protesters marching along.

While many focus on The Mall, there's a considerable crowd off to the right - Pennsylvania Avenue, Constitution Ave. and 3d Street.

138 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:30:42am

re: #127 iceweasel

Not so. Rasmussen was a consistent outlier during the 2008 election cycle, constantly showing a mush closer race or McCain/Palin ahead. They were off by as much as ten points or more than averyone else.
Sometime in october they suddenly started polling correctly-- so that at the end of the cycle they'd get people like you saying "all that matters is their ultimate accuracy".

This is why I say Scott Rasmussen is not a lazy or sloppy pollster, but an actively BAD one.

I disagree. No one really knows the truth of poll numbers until an ultimate event that proves their accuracy...like an election.
They ended up with the most accurate pre election day numbers, while CBS, Newsweek and others had the most inaccurate results.

139 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:31:06am

re: #134 Dreader1962

Gee - even this turns into a diatribe against the 'jooos'!

What doesn't?

140 Baier  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:32:20am

re: #127 iceweasel

I think the methodology (using likely voters, rather than registered voters, or adults) has advantages and disadvantages, but I doubt Rasmussen goes out of it's way to be incorrect or inaccurate. It's another argument to say the methods are predictive, but i bet they are accurate.

141 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:32:25am

re: #128 Emmmieg

Now we sing this stupid song!
Sing it as we march along!
Why we sing it we don't know!
We can't make the words rhyme prop'ly!
Sound off! One, two!
Sound off! Many! Lots!
Sound off! Huh? What?

Somehow, you just knew it had been written by a troll.

142 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:32:28am

Afternoon lizards, first time I've been here since early last night.
I haven't checked, are Spencer and Geller in meltdown mode today?

143 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:19am

re: #105 Baier

I didn't witness the crowd firsthand and I don't want to be bounced from the kangaroo court of Cato by saying approx. 60,000 to 70,000.

Thanks.

I haven't been around here much lately...'spose I should have read the link above before I asked.

I thought I was asking a simple question...I really didn't expect so much snark.

144 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:45am

re: #139 JamesTKirk

I often read comments on various news stories (admittedly linked from Drudge). For the most part, they are garbage, but it does indicate a frame of mind - and not a pleasant one, either. About 10% reasonable reactions to the story, 10% idiocy of all stripes and the remaining 80% frothing, agenda-driven hatred. I don't comment on these news stories because I don't derive a value from it, so the comments don't reflect everyone - just those driven to get the message out.

145 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:45am

re: #142 Irish Rose

Afternoon lizards, first time I've been here since early last night.
I haven't checked, are Spencer and Geller in meltdown mode today?

The Deucers were in full meltdown mode last night and yesterday. Then you get Rodan with this on a new thread this morning:

We will soon be moving to a new Host and will have a new design. We are planning on De-LGFing our site, so we can move forward into the future.

The chickenshit is running to a foreign server as we suspected, Rose.

146 victor_yugo  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:48am

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Fred Phelps is a religiously motivated loon who would welcome martyrdom for his cause.

Not a description I'd apply to anti-war wussies hippies.

Oh, give me a break.

"Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

All part of The Plan™.

147 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:49am

re: #134 Dreader1962

A bit off topic, but an indication of a convergence of ideas. This is a comment from a story in the NY Post about the two people who did the ACORN stings:

NY Post: Duo who turned this trick

Gee - even this turns into a diatribe against the 'jooos'!

To some assholes, that's all everything.

/spits

148 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:55am

re: #142 Irish Rose

Who cares? Honestly, they can't seem to get through more than 48 hours without some sort of screaming hysterics.

149 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:34:55am

re: #135 Killgore Trout

His conclusions are so far from the official estimates that he just can't be taken seriously. It's just mumbo-jumbo. When I look an freedomworks own picture of the event that crowd looks like it could fit in a small basketball arena. That's about 60-80,000. It's just common sense.

What the photo does not show is beyond the far left, the far right and even behind the locale of where the photographer was. Not to mention those that were still coming from all angles

60-80K? Lowball at best
1 Million plus? Most likely not

Somewhere in the middle?

We have a winner!

150 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:35:02am

re: #133 Cato the Elder

Fred Phelps is a religiously motivated loon who would welcome martyrdom for his cause.

Not a description I'd apply to anti-war wussies hippies.

Ah, but have you been to an anti-Israel rally lately? These seemingly peaceful hippies have joined forces with pro-Intifada crowd as of late. These hippies have become verbally abusive, physically aggressive, and relish in giving us the sieg heil whenever our eyes meet. Times are a changin'.

151 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:35:07am

re: #126 thedopefishlives

Here you go. Still, I'm being attack for 'clinging' to 2 million people. When in fact the crowd was most likely less than a million. Yet, I'm being attack by people here for showing proof of the size of the crowd.

re: #80 iceweasel

"I'm not living in a fantasy world. Everyone else here refuses to see that I really am Napoleon."

152 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:03am

re: #109 cronus

Look at the cross tabs.

31% of people who voted for Obama in 2008 are Troofers (19% unsure).

On the Obama approval, the split for approval/disapproval breaks out as follows:
94% liberal approve
46% moderate approve
12% conservative approve

The disapprovals are
3, 44, and 83% respectively.

Support for ObamaCare is much lower, and a majority (50%) oppose. Liberals still support, 49% moderates and most conservatives oppose. A much bigger percentage don't know (11% across the board).

On issue of birthers - it's a near mirror to the troofer question.

153 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:09am

re: #151 Buckeye Nation

You've yet to show any proof that I've seen. All you've done is argue. There are other people commenting in this thread with substantive proof - some of the lowball 60-65k figure, some of a figure substantially larger but less than 1 million. Nobody's "clinging" to anything.

154 OldLineTexan  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:33am

I am certainly grateful that I cannot read Fred Phelps' mind.

155 Kragar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:47am

Nice to hear someone else say this once in a while.

Sarkozy: Iran working on nukes today

After Paris warned that new sanctions against Teheran remained an option despite the likelihood of negotiations with Iran, French President Nicolas Sarkozy maintained that the Islamic republic was still working on a nuclear weapons program.

"It is a certainty to all of our secret services. Iran is working today on a nuclear [weapons] program," Sarkozy told lawmakers from his UMP party on Tuesday, according to Press TV.

"We cannot let Iran acquire nuclear" weapons because it would also be a threat to Israel, he added.

156 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:51am

re: #142 Irish Rose

I think yesterday's finding were so devastating that they both seem to have dropped the case. They'll probably pretend that they were never involved.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:36:59am

re: #142 Irish Rose

Afternoon lizards, first time I've been here since early last night.
I haven't checked, are Spencer and Geller in meltdown mode today?

About the Bary case? A.S. doesn't refer to the decision, but has posted an article about the dangers to Muslim women who convert out.

158 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:37:04am

re: #135 Killgore Trout

His conclusions are so far from the official estimates that he just can't be taken seriously. It's just mumbo-jumbo. When I look an freedomworks own picture of the event that crowd looks like it could fit in a small basketball arena. That's about 60-80,000. It's just common sense.

Thanks, Kilgore. My problem has been that I can't find what the definitive official estimates are. I understand about the photo but I don't know at what time of day or point in the proceedings it was taken. I've spoken with a variety of people that attended and they disdain the 60K figure. At first I tended to agree with Charles but don't as much now based on the conversations I've had with attendees. Are they experts at crowd estimation? I doubt it, so, there's that. I just don't understand how this has become so difficult to figure out unequivocally. But thank you again.

159 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:37:13am

re: #150 eclectic infidel

Times are a changin'.

And with the current craziness on the right and on the left, I fear it is not for the better.
*sigh*

160 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:37:40am

Later.

161 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:03am

With all this quibbling over numbers, I'm wondering if there is some special prize at stake if they reach one million. Will two million get them into the 'platinum club' or something?

We're hearing more about the numbers than a coherent plan for addressing what we currently face in the economy, security, trade policy and many other issues.

162 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:08am

re: #134 Dreader1962

A bit off topic, but an indication of a convergence of ideas. This is a comment from a story in the NY Post about the two people who did the ACORN stings:

NY Post: Duo who turned this trick

Gee - even this turns into a diatribe against the 'jooos'!

Basically, that is precisely what the FBI tried to do with Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, former officials of AIPAC before the case was thrown out of court, but not before destroying the careers for several good people.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

163 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:09am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

I think yesterday's finding were so devastating that they both seem to have dropped the case. They'll probably pretend that they were never involved.

Well, it's too late for either Spencer of Geller on that. They posted it, and they were involved, and the evidence is like a rash all over the interwebs.

164 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:26am

bbl

165 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:40am

re: #127 iceweasel

Not so. Rasmussen was a consistent outlier during the 2008 election cycle, constantly showing a mush closer race or McCain/Palin ahead. They were off by as much as ten points or more than averyone else.
Sometime in october they suddenly started polling correctly-- so that at the end of the cycle they'd get people like you saying "all that matters is their ultimate accuracy".

This is why I say Scott Rasmussen is not a lazy or sloppy pollster, but an actively BAD one.

What proof do you have that Rasmussen actively fixed the polls?

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:43am

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

About the Bary case? A.S. doesn't refer to the decision, but has posted an article about the dangers to Muslim women who convert out.


Spencer posts a piece about an honor killing in Italy, and uses it to refute Mr. Bary's statement that 'there is no such thing as an honor killing'. The fact that the Barys are, I think, Indonesians, and this guy was a Moroccan is, naturally, irrelevent.

167 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:49am

re: #135 Killgore Trout

Small basketball arena? Most hold about 20,000 or less. You're probably talking about a football arena. Some can hold upwards of 100,000.

168 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:57am

re: #138 captdiggs

I disagree. No one really knows the truth of poll numbers until an ultimate event that proves their accuracy...like an election.
They ended up with the most accurate pre election day numbers, while CBS, Newsweek and others had the most inaccurate results.

Okay, here is another example of Rasmussen bias and shilling for the right:

People here are no doubt familiar with the oft-repeated claim that "35 percent of Democrats believe Bush had advance knowledge of 9-11 attacks". Many people on the right claim that this shows that 35% of Dems were truthers.

Not so. The numbers come from a Rasmussen poll. There is a sane way and an insane way to read the question "Do you believe Bush had advance knowledge of 9-11?"
The insane way is to say "Yes, I think Bush knew all about it and helped it/let it happen/conspired to make it happen" -- the truther way. Whatever their theory du jour is.

The sane way is to say "Yes, I believe, as Condoleeza Rice testified, that Bush received a memo on August 6 2001 entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside US'". Answered in that way, 99 percent of lizards would be counted as 'truthers' -- anyone who knows about that memo.

Rasmussen never asked any questions that would separate the truthers from the sane people, and then simply reported his results as '35% of Dems believe that Bush had advance knowledge"-- without clarifying what that meant. The wingnuts and the GOP picked that up and kept repeating it.

This is just one of many examples about why Rasmussen is dishonest. Anything coming from him has to be triple checked, that's all.

169 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:38:59am

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

170 midwestgak  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:01am

Picture of one tiger

If you see more than one, I want to know what you are drinking/smoking.///

171 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:12am
172 Syrah  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:22am

re: #142 Irish Rose

Afternoon lizards, first time I've been here since early last night.
I haven't checked, are Spencer and Geller in meltdown mode today?

"meltdown" is their comfort zone.

173 JamesTKirk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:37am

re: #154 OldLineTexan

I am certainly grateful that I cannot read Fred Phelps' mind.

An electron microscope would be required for the task.

174 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:48am

re: #137 lawhawk

I wont link per Charles' rule, but Ace notes that the rally probably had 300,000 to 500,000 people. For the record, I stated that I thought the rally had around those numbers as well, particularly based on the video showing the protesters marching along.

While many focus on The Mall, there's a considerable crowd off to the right - Pennsylvania Avenue, Constitution Ave. and 3d Street.

I was guessing 200-250K myself looking at the pictures the way one might line up a putt. Not very scientific, but I used to be a decent putter...

175 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:54am
176 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:39:57am

re: #169 Thanos

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

When the Birchers came back out and adpoted Alinsky.

177 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:40:00am

re: #163 Honorary Yooper

CRazy Pam claims she never pushed the Nirth Certifikit despite her dozens of posts on the topic. Don't underestimate their ability to delude themselves.

178 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:40:28am

re: #170 midwestgak

Picture of one tiger

If you see more than one, I want to know what you are drinking/smoking.///

I see three and it is way too expensive to share. Sorry. ///

179 cliffster  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:40:38am

If I had a million protesters
...if I had a million protesters
I'd buy you a monkey
... haven't you always wanted a MONKEY?

180 Arbalest  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:40:49am

Having seen the photo, as linked previously n this thread, which looks credible (more evidence is always welcome), I now revise my estimate from yesterday downward.

Noting that the crowd stretches back to the mall, but that there seem to be very many people on the sides, I guess 200,000, possibly 250,000.

For an event with little organization / infrastructure, and less violence, this seems to be a large turnout.

181 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:41:11am

re: #177 Killgore Trout

CRazy Pam claims she never pushed the Nirth Certifikit despite her dozens of posts on the topic. Don't underestimate their ability to delude themselves.

Who you gonna believe- her or your lying eyes?

182 lurking faith  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:41:27am

re: #179 cliffster

If I had a million protesters
...if I had a million protesters
I'd buy you a monkey
... haven't you always wanted a MONKEY?

But not a real monkey; that's cruel

lol

183 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:41:36am

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Here's my challenge:

Among the legions of Lizards, let one come forward with a personal account of the "spat-upon Vietnam vet" syndrome. Time, place, date, physical description of the hippie scum who did it (right - like hippies have ever had balls big enough to go up to a soldier in uniform and spit on him - there's an end to the myth right there), what said scumster said or did during the spit incident, and I'll relent.

Otherwise, it's "I heard this and my buddy told me that", which is the point here. A year from now, the teabaggers will be telling each other and anybody without the wit to walk away, "I was there with fifteen million other outraged Americans and Glenn Beck."

Sure you were.

Cato -

here is a link to J Shafer at Slate who writes on this issue.

I assume you have already read his articles on the topic. Please notice the subtle shifting in standards for proof he has.

At first he demanded that people with first person accounts come forward since he could find none.

They did.

He now demands that people who come forward have with them contemporaneous documentation in the form of a news article reporting the very same incident having occurred at that time.

So you may get someone coming forward and you may find yourself shifting your demands much as Shafer has.

That aside I was spat on as a Cadet in ROTC at California Polytechnic University in San Luis Obispo by someone I assume to have been a student outside of the Architecture building adjacent to Dexter Lawn on my way out of the southern entrance of the Military Science building on October 26, 1983 at about 10:00 am. It was the day after the invasion of Grenada and ROTC cadets wore uniforms every Wednesday. The word had gone out that we shouldn't wear our uniforms that day but I had not gotten it and was on my way back to my place to change to civies (having been excused by an instructor to do so) when it happened. I was with another cadet who I have lost contact with but if you don't find my account credible I am sure I could locate him.

Granted - it was not Vietnam, and if spitting from that time were a "myth" (a possibility that I am open to but requires more than assertions coupled with shifting standards of proof) some may have assumed it to have become acceptable behavior for expressing opinion as I assume the guy who spat on me must have.

One other thing - as instructed (because such behavior was anticipated) I simply walked on after the incident and didn't wipe the spit off my uniform until I was in my bedroom. So I guess my roommates saw the spit but didn't see the incident, and I have kept in touch with them.

And - no - there is no press account to back this up. The policy at the time was to avoid all controversy and keep a very low profile.

184 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:42:06am
185 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:42:06am

re: #155 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I just pray that the IDF is ready to go with Osirak/ part deux, if the rest of the world continues to ignore, at its peril, the ongoing Iranian nuke brigade. When they swivel the first one up to launch, it will be somewhat late to restart the debate.

186 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:42:16am

re: #165 Pianobuff

What proof do you have that Rasmussen actively fixed the polls?

What I said. they were a consistent outlier during the election cycle, and mysteriously corrected themselves at the end of the cycle. There are far too many examples of them framing questions dishonestly. There are many, many examples. Anything from them has to be triple checked.
Rasmussen is more than capable of taking an accurate poll when he wants to. It's just that he often chooses not to-- and the results always skew beneficial to the right.

187 jorline  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:42:25am

re: #135 Killgore Trout

His conclusions are so far from the official estimates that he just can't be taken seriously. It's just mumbo-jumbo. When I look an freedomworks own picture of the event that crowd looks like it could fit in a small basketball arena. That's about 60-80,000. It's just common sense.

KT FYI

Madison Square Gardens

Seating in the present Madison Square Garden is arranged in six ascending levels.
For hockey, the Garden seats 18,200; for basketball, 19,763; and for concerts 20,000 center stage, 19,522 end-stage. The arena features 20,976 square feet (1949 m²) of arena floor space.

What is the largest crowd to ever attend a NBA game?

Over 61,000 saw the Pistons and Celtics play in 1988.

60,000 to 80,000 doesn't make sense with your analogy of an average basketball game.

188 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:42:29am

re: #119 bofhell

The numbers from WMATA MUST be considered a minimum (as my note from yesterday described, the increase in Metrorail's ridership on the 12th was on the order of 65k). The reasons are varied:

1 -- The number is ONLY for Metrorail and does not include Metrobus (since the Metrobus numbers have clear and explicit patterns to them)
2 -- There are any of a number of hotels within walking distance of the Mall
3 -- There is no accounting for people taking buses and taxis downtown.
4 -- Still photography of the event sites (such as the now famous 14th live cam image) clearly support a number higher than 65k.

Uh - it isn't the absolute ridership numbers that matter. It's the relative increase compared with other events of known size.

The figures posted here yesterday are entirely consistent with a crowd of around 50k - 100k. The wide range is due to the many other factors that can affect ridership, but it is completely consistent with the Fire Department estimate.

"Damn, you effing idiot - just look at the effing photos and any effing idiot can tell that there's effing a million effing people there!!!" seems to be the alternative being offered. It doesn't carry as much weight as professionals like the DC FD.

189 victor_yugo  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:14am

re: #182 lurking faith

But not a real monkey; that's cruel

lol

Only if you spank it.

190 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:21am

re: #171 Buckeye Nation

No evidence when the photograph was taken, but the USA Today article only shows how big certain innagural events were.

191 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:29am
192 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:33am

re: #187 jorline

60,000 to 80,000 doesn't make sense with your analogy of an average basketball game.

The old Tampa stadium (Buccaneers) held 76K.

193 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:46am

re: #156 Killgore Trout

From your keyboard to somebody's monitor!

194 Kragar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:54am

more blood libel

'Jews harvesting Algerian kids' organs'

According to the story, first reported by Algeria's Al-Khabar daily, bands of Moroccans and Algerians have allegedly been roaming the streets of Algeria's cities kidnapping young children, who are then transported across the border into Morocco. From the Moroccan city of Oujda, the children are then purportedly sold to Israelis and American Jews, who then harvest their organs for sale in Israel and the United States. The organs are said to fetch anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000.

The source for the Al-Khabar report seems to be a Dr. Mustafa Khayatti, head of the Algerian National Committee for the Development of Health Research. Khayatti reportedly claimed that several Jews were arrested in New York in connection with the trade. He claimed Interpol knew of the situation and was leading the investigation into the abductions.

"The arrest of Jewish organ trafficking gangs does not mean that the danger has gone; top officials and specialists in this issue assert that there are other Jewish gangs who remain active in several Arab countries," Khayatti was quoted as saying.

Picking up on the Algerian report, the official Iranian news agency PressTV claimed that the Jewish group "is said to be connected to Israeli Rabbi Levi Rosenbaum, who was recently arrested in New Jersey for the direct involvement in importing human organs."

195 cronus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:43:56am

re: #152 lawhawk

Look at the cross tabs.

31% of people who voted for Obama in 2008 are Troofers (19% unsure).

On the Obama approval, the split for approval/disapproval breaks out as follows:
94% liberal approve
46% moderate approve
12% conservative approve

The disapprovals are
3, 44, and 83% respectively.

Support for ObamaCare is much lower, and a majority (50%) oppose. Liberals still support, 49% moderates and most conservatives oppose. A much bigger percentage don't know (11% across the board).

On issue of birthers - it's a near mirror to the troofer question.

The HC numbers trend mirrors national polls that show support for ObamaCare waning among independents/moderates/centrists, etc. It will be interesting to see how that group responds of the Baucus bill becomes the Senate vehicle.

My favorite cross-tab is that 5% of those who voted for Obama think he is the anti-christ.

To your last point, I don't know why somebody doesn't do a cross tab that shows the direct overlap in responses for the birther, truther, anti-christ, conspiracy du jour categories. I think it would show something close to 10% of the electorate literally believe every conspiracy that manages to get a sizable following.

196 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:44:03am
After all, who cares about basic fact checking when there’s an ideology to be promoted?

Well we know the New York Times doesn't.

197 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:44:11am

It's extremely deconstructive of Conservatives to even suggest that the tea party rantfest outdrew both of President Reagan's Inaugurations, that really has me pissed off. How stupid do they think people are?

198 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:44:16am

re: #185 tradewind

I just pray that the IDF is ready to go with Osirak/ part deux, if the rest of the world continues to ignore, at its peril, the ongoing Iranian nuke brigade. When they swivel the first one up to launch, it will be somewhat late to restart the debate.

We may have to attack Iran by Dec.'

199 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:44:51am

re: #194 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

more blood libel

'Jews harvesting Algerian kids' organs'

Thank-you Sweden.

200 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:44:52am

re: #162 MJ

Basically, that is precisely what the FBI tried to do with Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, former officials of AIPAC before the case was thrown out of court, but not before destroying the careers for several good people.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

By the way, I used to think that anti-Semitism was rare, but after 9/11 I was traveling quite a bit and had an encounter. I was waiting in a security line at the Denver airport and the guy in front of me started complaining about having to wait. I thought it would just be the typical impatience that people express, but he turned it into a diatribe against the Jews and Israel as being to blame for 9/11 happening in the first place. I felt like someone lifted a lid to glimpse into a sewer - this guy is constantly thinking in terms of how Jews interfere with his life.

I just can't understand this behavior. I gave up trying to 'understand' evil long before this when dealing with the prosecution side of the law - now I just recognize it and fight against it where possible.

201 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:23am

Apropos of nothing, am I the only person who stops reading any article once "tweets" start being discussed? The entire premise of Twitter in the political context seems designed to foster cryptic, message length limited hyperventilating.

202 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:25am

re: #184 Buckeye Nation

Plus Metrorail attendance was twice its normal average.

It's not substantially high enough above the other numbers given to mean much of anything. Hell, the Monday after the 9/12 event has far higher ridership numbers, as does the week previous.

203 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:46am

re: #66 princetrumpet

Here's twobru's link:

Your text to link...

See what you think. It made sense to me but as i said... I'm not a math or computer guy.


I saw that link too, and as you said, makes sense to me and I am no math or computer guy either. But for argument sake, cut his number in half and it's still a HUGE crowd. IMO, those claiming 10's of thousands are way off. For some reason there seems to be a real visceral reaction to this protest movement, and not just from the looney left. Sure there are kooks and racists riding the tide, but I believe the vast majority are average, middle of the road and independent Americans just sick of Washington BS...regardless of party affiliation.

204 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:46am

re: #186 iceweasel

There are far too many examples of them framing questions dishonestly.


Oh, NO! Are you trying to say that a pollster might try to sway a result by slanting a question towards a particular answer? Why, that would be...like
push polling, and everyone knows there's no such thing.
///

205 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:52am

re: #169 Thanos

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

I think it still is... well... a version of "Truth"

[Link:wikimedia.org... ]

206 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:56am

re: #194 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

more blood libel

'Jews harvesting Algerian kids' organs'

Well, it is getting into Blood Libel season.

207 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:45:57am

re: #186 iceweasel

Maybe I can take it up later with you since this isn't going to be resolved in a couple of posts. I have a teleconference now, but I'll check back later.

208 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:46:12am

re: #187 jorline

Whatever, I'm just guessing. Looks like a crowd that could fit is a small stadium. It's not really important. What's certain is that the crowd was nowhere near a million. Estimates close to 2 million are just laughable.

209 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:46:19am

re: #171 Buckeye Nation

The picture in question appears to show a heavily crowded area on the west side of the Capitol to 4th Street, which was the cordoned off area for the rally. There are no crowds on the center of the Mall, but the walks on either side are filled, but that would be normal for a nice weekend on the mall as people moved from one SI museum to another. There appears to be no significant number of people on Pennsylvania Avenue from the picture.

As has been stated earlier, the west side of the Capitol would have a packed capacity of about 250k people, certainly not 850k.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:46:31am

re: #195 cronus


My favorite cross-tab is that 5% of those who voted for Obama think he is the anti-christ.

I guess they just really liked his tax proposals?

211 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:46:34am

re: #190 Honorary Yooper

Are you kidding me?!?! So, unless the picture has a time stamp you won't believe the photo. Wow.

212 JHW  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:46:49am

re: #83 Cato the Elder

Cato, I'll probably catch hell for this, but I'm going to go along with you for the most part on this, i.e., this wasn't a big epidemic. Anecdotal to be sure, but I'll throw it in. I came home in '68, right after Tet. Nobody told us not to wear a uniform, to the contrary it was required to get travel discounts. I wandered all around San Francisco and Oakland for a couple days waiting for travel connections and outside of a couple dirty looks nobody bothered me, some older people offered to buy "the vet" drinks. A few wanted to discuss politics, which I made clear I had zero interest in doing . Connected to Seattle, on the way home, ditto. Nobody bothered me. Maybe because I was carrying a captured rifle, which I still have (30'06 US made Enfield). But most importantly, no GI I knew, or myself, would have meekly tolerated somebody spitting on us without repercussions, even if it had meant being severely whipped.

I asked my brother about it, a year later when he came home severely wounded from our old outfit (DustyVet's old outfit, too) and his story was identical, no harassment, no tolerance for it. Every vet friend I've asked, many, many of them, has agreed. They wouldn't have stood for it, it didn't happen and they just wanted to get home and put it behind them and get on with the future .

Not saying it never happened, but it didn't happen to anyone I know and they all (vets) are adamant they wouldn't have tolerated it, any more than the average person here would. War stories happen after every war, and I've never been one for self pity myself , I'd be ashamed to admit I meekly took such abuse. The war is in the past , dead as Caesar, AFAIC.

213 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:47:47am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

However sarcastically you meant that, it's gonna get cherry picked to Charles' detriment. Peachy.

214 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:48:13am

re: #171 Buckeye Nation

Here's your proof

Along with a USA Today crowd est.

Uh - your link to USA Today is an article discussing 0bama's inauguration.

The photo isn't very compelling; it's a small crowd, as others have pointed out no larger than a middling sporting event.

215 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:48:24am

re: #183 karmic_inquisitor

So you may get someone coming forward and you may find yourself shifting your demands much as Shafer has.

Not. Although you must admit, if it had been the widespread phenom that the myth now holds it to be, a line or two in a paper somewhere might be expected to exist. Not all media were anti-soldier in those days, any more than they are now.

There is far more "newspaper proof" of Obama's birth than of the spitting story.

But thank you for your testimony. I will not move the goal posts. I accept it. But I'd still like to hear from an actual spat-upon Vietnam vet. I never said it didn't happen - I maintain that the massive spitting fest was concocted out of a few incidents. And now it's so firmly entrenched that almost any vet you meet is going to tell you about a guy he knows who knows a guy who heard about a guy getting dissed.

It's called a legend. That's how they arise.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:48:28am

re: #206 Creeping Eruption

Well, it is getting into Blood Libel season.

Actually, that's spring.

No sarc.

217 Locker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:48:38am

re: #212 JHW

Cato, I'll probably catch hell for this, but I'm going to go along with you for the most part on this, i.e., this wasn't a big epidemic. Anecdotal to be sure, but I'll throw it in. I came home in '68, right after Tet. Nobody told us not to wear a uniform, to the contrary it was required to get travel discounts. I wandered all around San Francisco and Oakland for a couple days waiting for travel connections and outside of a couple dirty looks nobody bothered me, some older people offered to buy "the vet" drinks. A few wanted to discuss politics, which I made clear I had zero interest in doing . Connected to Seattle, on the way home, ditto. Nobody bothered me. Maybe because I was carrying a captured rifle, which I still have (30'06 US made Enfield). But most importantly, no GI I knew, or myself, would have meekly tolerated somebody spitting on us without repercussions, even if it had meant being severely whipped.

I asked my brother about it, a year later when he came home severely wounded from our old outfit (DustyVet's old outfit, too) and his story was identical, no harassment, no tolerance for it. Every vet friend I've asked, many, many of them, has agreed. They wouldn't have stood for it, it didn't happen and they just wanted to get home and put it behind them and get on with the future .

Not saying it never happened, but it didn't happen to anyone I know and they all (vets) are adamant they wouldn't have tolerated it, any more than the average person here would. War stories happen after every war, and I've never been one for self pity myself , I'd be ashamed to admit I meekly took such abuse. The war is in the past , dead as Caesar, AFAIC.

This was a very interesting account. Coming back from Desert Storm folks were pretty happy to see us but I don't know a single guy in my unit who wouldn't have pounded the crap out of anyone stupid enough to spit on them, especially while in uniform.

218 captdiggs  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:49:15am

re: #168 iceweasel

Okay, here is another example of Rasmussen bias and shilling for the right:

As I said all polsters are biased. The only fact that really matters is ultimate accuracy.
Professional polsters like Rasmussen, Gallup, have the most to lose by inaccuracy. They lose their business.
News organizations that offer polls have far less to lose, as polling is not their ( money) business. That's why the news organization polls ended up as the least accurate in the Obama/Mccain election..

219 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:49:29am

re: #209 bofhell

Um, do you live in DC, well I do. That crowd you there is not a typical weekend crowd. But whatever, no matter what I post here no one is actually going change their mind.

220 bosforus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:49:59am

Everyone need their "million man march", I suppose.

221 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:50:31am

re: #213 Dianna

Maybe not, if stinky gets it first. But you're right, it's a tailor-made sound byte.

222 experiencedtraveller  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:50:56am

Partisan style bickering over a crowd size AT THE CAPITAL.

/I've woken up in a banana republic...

223 cronus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:05am

re: #168 iceweasel

Here's how PPP NJ poll reads the truther question:

Do you think that George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Yes
McCain voters: 9%
Obama voters: 31%

224 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:07am

re: #198 Creeping Eruption

We may have to attack Iran by Dec.'

Merrry Christmas, ShortShit. The IAF is gonna' stuff some coal into your stocking.

225 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:21am

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, that's spring.

No sarc.

I know - around Pesach. It just seemed to be getting earlier and earlier every year. Maybe that is just my paranoia.

226 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:36am

And for the record: If I knew the name and address of a soldier-spitting hippie from those days (or these), I'd drive to its house right now, ring the bell, spit in its face and walk away. America is a big place, but I'm free to move about it, I have a big, un-PC car, and lots of time.

227 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:36am

re: #220 bosforus

Everyone need their "million man march", I suppose.

*perks*

228 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:51:50am

re: #200 Dreader1962

... he turned it into a diatribe against the Jews and Israel as being to blame for 9/11 happening in the first place. I felt like someone lifted a lid to glimpse into a sewer - this guy is constantly thinking in terms of how Jews interfere with his life.

I just can't understand this behavior. I gave up trying to 'understand' evil long before this when dealing with the prosecution side of the law - now I just recognize it and fight against it where possible.

I'm quite convinced that the quarrel is not over land in the region formerly known as Palestine, but has everything to do with racism/anti-semitism. I've also noticed that people use anti-Zionist diatribes to cloak their prejudice against Jews in general. These realizations [eventually] led me to become an activist for Israel's right to exist.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:52:25am

re: #225 Creeping Eruption

I know - around Pesach. It just seemed to be getting earlier and earlier every year. Maybe that is just my paranoia.

Paranoia is when you think they're out to get you.

Jewish paranoia is when you know they're out to get you.

230 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:52:35am

re: #206 Creeping Eruption

Just more grist for the matzo meal mill.
/sarc/... just in case no one's familiar

231 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:52:45am

re: #209 bofhell

but that would be normal for a nice weekend on the mall as people moved from one SI museum to another.

"normal for a nice weekend on the mall,,,??"

Image: capitol-view-lo-res.jpg


I didn't realize "normal weekends" were so patriotic!

/

232 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:52:48am

re: #201 Diamond Bullet

Apropos of nothing, am I the only person who stops reading any article once "tweets" start being discussed? The entire premise of Twitter in the political context seems designed to foster cryptic, message length limited hyperventilating.

All that is is another example of the chattering class setting the agenda.

233 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:53:46am

re: #199 MJ

Fuck-you Sweden.

234 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:53:50am

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Paranoia is when you think they're out to get you.

Jewish paranoia is when you know they're out to get you.

One of my parents was a convert so I guess I am saddled with both. :)

235 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:54:16am

re: #213 Dianna

However sarcastically you meant that, it's gonna get cherry picked to Charles' detriment. Peachy.

Sorry. Once again I forget to run my posts by you first.

Charles, feel free to delete.

236 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:54:30am

re: #223 cronus

Here's how PPP NJ poll reads the truther question:

Do you think that George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Yes
McCain voters: 9%
Obama voters: 31%

Yes.

Not truthers. Not remotely truthers.

237 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:54:36am

re: #188 SixDegrees

If you look at my post yesterday, I cited a number of Saturday ridership reports from Metrorail, including two from a year ago. A jump in ridership of about 130k seems to be reflected, which is 65k people (since one person would almost certainly make two trips -- one to the rally, one back). Of course, Metrorail is but one way for people to have gotten to the rally, so the number must necessarily be higher than 65k.

238 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:54:49am

Is there one, just one overhead satellite or helicopter photo of this event? I can't find a single overhead pic. Not a street camera and not a color photo taken God knows when. I want to see a photo that gives me whatever was on the mall plus whatever overflow there may have been This is a puzzlement.

239 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:54:52am

re: #219 Buckeye Nation

Um, do you live in DC, well I do. That crowd you there is not a typical weekend crowd. But whatever, no matter what I post here no one is actually going change their mind.

We Lizards are picky critters; we like verifiable facts.

240 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:55:20am

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Paranoia is when you think they're out to get you.

Jewish paranoia is when you know they're out to get you.

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't out to get you.

241 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:55:25am

re: #218 captdiggs

Rasmussen sucks. Rely on them at your peril.

242 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:56:16am

re: #235 Cato the Elder

Just calling something to your attention.

243 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:56:37am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Whatever, I'm just guessing. Looks like a crowd that could fit is a small stadium. It's not really important. What's certain is that the crowd was nowhere near a million. Estimates close to 2 million are just laughable.

Another data point: 0bama's inauguration drew a crowd estimated at 1.5 to 1.8 million. It brought DC to it's knees, with police and the NPS completely overtaxed, a complete lack of accommodations for miles around the city, massive, impenetrable gridlock and a swamping of emergency services both on the streets and at hospitals. This followed weeks of detailed planning - the crowd was simply too damn big to deal with.

Anyone claiming estimates even remotely near such figures has to explain how no one in DC seems to have noticed the chaos and mayhem that many people bring to town.

244 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:56:38am

re: #239 MandyManners

We Lizards are picky critters; we like verifiable facts.

That seems to be the one thing missing in this entire conundrum.

245 Desert Dog  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:56:39am

re: #226 Cato the Elder

And for the record: If I knew the name and address of a soldier-spitting hippie from those days (or these), I'd drive to its house right now, ring the bell, spit in its face and walk away. America is a big place, but I'm free to move about it, I have a big, un-PC car, and lots of time.

Cato's got a car that's as big as a whale
and it's about to set sail

He's got him a Chrysler that seats about Twenty
so, come on and bring your hippie spitting money!!

246 cronus  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:57:11am

BBL

247 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:57:15am

re: #212 JHW

Thank you. That's what I would have expected - not that it couldn't happen, but no vet would stand for it and if there had been an epidemic of it, it would have caused riots, broken faces, police reports, and newspaper accounts.

God bless you and your brother.

248 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:57:24am

re: #219 Buckeye Nation

Fairfax County. I like my representatives in the Congress to have vote that counts.

249 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #204 tradewind

Oh, NO! Are you trying to say that a pollster might try to sway a result by slanting a question towards a particular answer? Why, that would be...like
push polling, and everyone knows there's no such thing.
///

It isn't a defense of Rasmussen to point out that bias exists, and that many other polls are biased. Those things are true.

Rasmussen has consistently been among the most biased, the most slanted, and the most untrustworthy.

250 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:57:56am

re: #244 filetandrelease

That seems to be the one thing missing in this entire conundrum.

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that, verifiable facts or no, there is NO supporting evidence for a crowd larger than 1 million. Which is the entire point of this thread in the first place.

251 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:58:21am

re: #223 cronus

Here's how PPP NJ poll reads the truther question:

Do you think that George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Yes
McCain voters: 9%
Obama voters: 31%

Pssst. Read this.

BBL

252 JHW  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:58:47am

re: #247 Cato the Elder

Thanks Cato.

253 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 9:59:43am

re: #183 karmic_inquisitor

That aside I was spat on as a Cadet in ROTC

If you can't show us the footage of the incident you filmed at the time with your cellphone, you're obviously a LIAR! And no, I don't care if it was 1983!

/

254 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:00:06am

re: #245 Desert Dog

Cato's got a car that's as big as a whale
and it's about to set sail

He's got him a Chrysler that seats about Twenty
so, come on and bring your hippie spitting money!!

I want to do a road trip and visit Cato in his Love Shack!

255 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:00:16am

re: #232 MandyManners

I find Twitter useful for political sites that have become so numerous and updated that you just cannot sort through them all without dragging around the internet... so a quick look at the tweets of my favorite news soures can help me decide whether I want to follow up or there's nothing new. It actually saves a lot of time.
I don't get using Twitter for the ' What are you doing' thing. Who cares?
If we're actually raising a generation of children who truly believe that their random thoughts and day to day actions are that important, we're so screwed.

256 StillAMarine  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:00:29am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Myth? It was no myth for me when I was spat upon and repeatedly accused of being a baby killer at university after I was released from active duty.
I am surprised that you would believe the way you appear to believe.

257 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:00:38am

re: #243 SixDegrees

Another data point: 0bama's inauguration drew a crowd estimated at 1.5 to 1.8 million. It brought DC to it's knees, with police and the NPS completely overtaxed, a complete lack of accommodations for miles around the city, massive, impenetrable gridlock and a swamping of emergency services both on the streets and at hospitals. This followed weeks of detailed planning - the crowd was simply too damn big to deal with.

Anyone claiming estimates even remotely near such figures has to explain how no one in DC seems to have noticed the chaos and mayhem that many people bring to town.


Excellent point.

258 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:01:00am

re: #237 bofhell

If you look at my post yesterday, I cited a number of Saturday ridership reports from Metrorail, including two from a year ago. A jump in ridership of about 130k seems to be reflected, which is 65k people (since one person would almost certainly make two trips -- one to the rally, one back). Of course, Metrorail is but one way for people to have gotten to the rally, so the number must necessarily be higher than 65k.

There are too many other factors to be certain. Weather, other events in town, school schedules, holidays...the list goes on.

The numbers aren't at all inconsistent with the Fire Department estimate. They are entirely inconsistent with a crowd estimated in the hundreds of thousands. In fact, given the mess that the inaugural brought to DC with between 1.5 and 1.8 million attendees, it's a wonder the buses would be able to run at all if such numbers were present. The city was essentially gridlocked inside the Beltway by those numbers.

259 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #215 Cato the Elder

Not. Although you must admit, if it had been the widespread phenom that the myth now holds it to be, a line or two in a paper somewhere might be expected to exist. Not all media were anti-soldier in those days, any more than they are now.

There is far more "newspaper proof" of Obama's birth than of the spitting story.

But thank you for your testimony. I will not move the goal posts. I accept it. But I'd still like to hear from an actual spat-upon Vietnam vet. I never said it didn't happen - I maintain that the massive spitting fest was concocted out of a few incidents. And now it's so firmly entrenched that almost any vet you meet is going to tell you about a guy he knows who knows a guy who heard about a guy getting dissed.

It's called a legend. That's how they arise.

And I agree. Like I said, I am open to the idea that the "spat on returning Vietnam Vets" thing may very well be a myth or may be a few incidents conflated into an epidemic that never was. I can only speak to the environment I was in and there were times where we were told to not wear a uniform. I also knew some cadets at Cal who were told that they could wear their hair a little longer than by reg so as not to stand out (although in the early 80s short hair was "in").

The Army, at least in terms of its ROTC detachments, acted as if the claims of harassment were true. There certainly had been a great deal of antagonism towards the uniform around then but the culture started changing after Grenada. By the time I was commissioned in 1985 most people smiled when they saw us in uniform (Cal Poly was a fairly conservative campus).

260 midwestgak  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:02:06am

Finance Committee Chairman Max Caucus unveils health care reform bill. Speaking now.

261 SteveC  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:02:14am

re: #223 cronus

Here's how PPP NJ poll reads the truther question:

Do you think that George W. Bush had advance knowledge of the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Yes
McCain voters: 9%
Obama voters: 31%

General Honore: "Jumpin Jehoshaphat,... are you stuck on stupid?"
Recruit: "Fiercely, sir!"

262 Wendya  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:02:24am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Because that's the only official number we have. I think it was from the fire Dept.

From Politifact:

Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, said the local government no longer provides official crowd estimates because they can become politicized. But the day of the rally, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.

“It was in no way an official estimate,” he said.

We asked Piringer whether there were enough protesters to fill the National Mall, as depicted in the photograph.

“It was an impressive crowd,” he said. But after marching down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, the crowd “only filled the Capitol grounds, maybe up to Third Street,” he said.


[Link: www.politifact.com...]

According to the USA today crowd estimate schematic, that area holds about 250K.

The low and high estimates are probably incorrect.

263 SteveC  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:03:06am

re: #254 iceweasel

I want to do a road trip and visit Cato in his Love Shack!


[Video]

Tinnn roof! RUSTED!

(Oh no!)

264 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:03:13am

re: #235 Cato the Elder
A few people might start wondering whether you're just masking some latent racism by cloaking it in verse and adding a sarc tag.
Not saying that you are... just saying.

265 badger1970  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:03:19am

re: #167 lawhawk

UM, UT and UT all over 100k

266 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:03:32am

Perhaps this is too obvious, but Google suggests the whole PPOR issue with Vietnam vet spitting has come up a bunch of times:

[Link: message.snopes.com...]

[Link: www.slate.com...]

[Link: www.broowaha.com...]

Don't necessarily vouch for any of these myself, but it does seem the anti-war left has been trying to defeat the spitting "meme" for a long time now. I also note that, obviously, even if nobody who was actually in Vietnam and spit upon happens to respond to a thread on a particular board, it doesn't mean nothing happened. If the same question is asked 50 years from now when everyone who personally could have experienced it is dead, the tree could still have fallen in the forest.

267 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:03:33am

re: #250 thedopefishlives

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that, verifiable facts or no, there is NO supporting evidence for a crowd larger than 1 million. Which is the entire point of this thread in the first place.


That is true, I am curious as to the actual size. The 60 to 70 thousand figure seems to be the one most reliable, but there are credible suggestions that the crowd could have been significantly larger.

268 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:04:14am

re: #263 SteveC

Tinnn roof! RUSTED!

(Oh no!)

9-11 TROOF! BUSTED!

269 Wendya  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #112 captdiggs

I think all polsters have a bias. But the only thing that matters is their ultimate accuracy.

Polls are going to deliver different results based on their sampling.

Rasmussen only polls likely voters.

270 midwestgak  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:04:33am

"Plan would require almost all Americans to buy insurance by 2013 or face fines."

"Insurers couldn't turn away people for pre-existing conditions."

"The time for action is now. And it will happen."

271 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:04:55am

re: #264 tradewind

A few people might start wondering whether you're just masking some latent racism by cloaking it in verse and adding a sarc tag.
Not saying that you are... just saying.

Uh-huh.

Charles deleted the satirical post, and I approve.

272 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #249 iceweasel

Any particular poll in mind?
Do you think they're more slanted than polls from say, Zogby, or CNN?

273 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:05:24am

re: #264 tradewind

A few people might start wondering whether you're just masking some latent racism by cloaking it in verse and adding a sarc tag.
Not saying that you are... just saying.

And I don't do fucking sarc tags.

274 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:05:50am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

How about sarc tags that aren't doing anything in particular?

275 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:06:16am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

And I don't do fucking sarc tags.

Ben Gurion? Is that you?

276 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:06:21am

re: #256 StillAMarine

Myth? It was no myth for me when I was spat upon and repeatedly accused of being a baby killer at university after I was released from active duty.
I am surprised that you would believe the way you appear to believe.

Details?

277 Coracle  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:06:43am

re: #209 bofhell

The picture in question appears to show a heavily crowded area on the west side of the Capitol to 4th Street, which was the cordoned off area for the rally. There are no crowds on the center of the Mall, but the walks on either side are filled, but that would be normal for a nice weekend on the mall as people moved from one SI museum to another. There appears to be no significant number of people on Pennsylvania Avenue from the picture.

As has been stated earlier, the west side of the Capitol would have a packed capacity of about 250k people, certainly not 850k.

That would also assume that the Mall was filled to between the Museum of the American Indian and the Air and Space museum. Which it was not. No counts, official or otherwise, have addressed the simultaneous event on the mall - The Black Family Reunion Celebration, which is shown as the series of tents in the image Buckeye Nation linked to. That celebration drew thousands of families - I would say 10-20 thousand people tops, to the Mall at the same time.

278 bofhell  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:06:44am

re: #258 SixDegrees

Absolutely! The only upper limit I'm given any credenace too is the 850k based on the time lapse from the 14th Street cam, but I'm skeptical that the rally drew more than about 120k since you there would be far more secondary indicators then have actually been reported. Simply put, you can't put that many people onto the mall and be ignored by every single local news outlet.

279 iceweasel  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:06:59am

re: #272 tradewind

Any particular poll in mind?
Do you think they're more slanted than polls from say, Zogby, or CNN?

All polls can be biased. Every poll has to be checked, no matter who it is from. A good pollster can (and does) put out a flawed poll, often.

Rasmussen is consistently the crappiest (mainstream) pollster around. Proceed with caution.

280 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:07:48am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

And I don't do fucking sarc tags.

In bed.

281 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:08:12am

re: #273 Cato the Elder

I've noticed. You just expect people to fill them in for you, and usually they do.
Whatever.

282 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:08:16am

re: #145 Honorary Yooper

Check your email.

283 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:08:29am

re: #266 Diamond Bullet

Perhaps this is too obvious, but Google suggests the whole PPOR issue with Vietnam vet spitting has come up a bunch of times:

[Link: message.snopes.com...]

[Link: www.slate.com...]

[Link: www.broowaha.com...]

Don't necessarily vouch for any of these myself, but it does seem the anti-war left has been trying to defeat the spitting "meme" for a long time now. I also note that, obviously, even if nobody who was actually in Vietnam and spit upon happens to respond to a thread on a particular board, it doesn't mean nothing happened. If the same question is asked 50 years from now when everyone who personally could have experienced it is dead, the tree could still have fallen in the forest.

One wonders - will holocaust deniers soon insist on living first person accounts?

284 SteveC  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:08:59am

re: #270 midwestgak

"Insurers couldn't turn away people for pre-existing conditions."

The problem there, as I understand it, is that the rates of everyone in an area will be keyed to what the worst insurance risk in that pool would have to pay. So all you studly lizards and beautiful lizardettes would have to pay *my* rates.

/ I got a body like a rusted out '29 Ford. :(

285 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:09:05am

re: #279 iceweasel

What's the basis for that?
I'm really asking, not arguing.

286 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:09:49am

re: #283 karmic_inquisitor

One wonders - will holocaust deniers soon insist on living first person accounts?

We have first-person accounts.

288 jorline  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:10:05am

re: #280 MandyManners

In bed.

Morning Mandy. Kind of like reading a fortune cookie and filling in "between the sheets" at the end...lol

289 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:10:07am

re: #282 Irish Rose

Hiya Rose. Purrr..

290 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:10:34am

re: #284 SteveC

The insurance companies are fat from the fact that the premiums of young , relatively healthy insured people, who don't make claims, carry those with underlying conditions. They shouldn't have to raise rates.

291 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:10:48am

Anyone seen Hoops? Tell him I would like to hear from him.

292 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:10:55am

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Speaking of polls...
Poll: One in Three New Jersey Conservatives Think Obama Might Be the Anti-Christ

There are no conservatives in NJ so this is clearly bogus.
/

293 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:05am

re: #279 iceweasel

All polls can be biased. Every poll has to be checked, no matter who it is from. A good pollster can (and does) put out a flawed poll, often.

Rasmussen is consistently the crappiest (mainstream) pollster around. Proceed with caution.

Remind me - what pollster was claiming that there could be a landslide victory for McCain a week before the election?

By the way, I hate polls overall - I don't see any informational purpose to them for a rational voter. It seems that there is an idea out there that one should jump on the bandwagon because someone is polling highly. The voting results are the only legitimate statistics I care for. Polling just creates a large number of jobs for people who got degrees in statistical analysis.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:13am

re: #284 SteveC

The problem there, as I understand it, is that the rates of everyone in an area will be keyed to what the worst insurance risk in that pool would have to pay. So all you studly lizards and beautiful lizardettes would have to pay *my* rates.

/ I got a body like a rusted out '29 Ford. :(

Back in the eighties, my father suddenly got a huge boost in his health insurance rates. He called to ask why, and was told that it was because he was male, and living in the 94118 area code (San Francisco).

"Would it help bring my rates down if I told you I'd been married for twenty years, and have a Playboy subscription?" my father inquired.

"I don't know what you mean by that, sir," said the voice on the phone.

295 StillAMarine  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:17am

re: #256 StillAMarine

Cato, thanks for the upding. You are indeed the gracious person I thought you were.

296 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:20am

re: #286 Cato the Elder

And the "living" part is not the issue.

297 SteveC  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:50am

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Speaking of polls...
Poll: One in Three New Jersey Conservatives Think Obama Might Be the Anti-Christ

It's true! Water doesn't affect him! I saw him and the debbil woman standing in the rain the other day...

/// Obviously ///

298 sagehen  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #102 Occasional Reader

I can't. Of course, that may have something to do with having been born in 1965. I also can't come up with any first-hand, personal "I walked on the moon" stories, either, come to think of it.-

Fine.

So come up with contemporaneous news coverage of such spitting incidents. Not "mentioned in an editorial ten years later" or "referenced in a campaign speech 6 years after the fact" -- an actual within-30-days-of-it-happening description in any publication.

I won't even ask for photos.

299 doubter4444  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:13:04am

re: #19 princetrumpet

Dear Charles,

twobru just posted what seemed to be a very fair assessment based on a lot of decent source material on the links page. If there's a flaw in his logic or calculations I couldn't find it. But then, I'm not a math or computer guy. I just thought it was worth checking out. Thanks.

He comes to the conclusion that 1,900,000 people were there?
That's wack.

300 Pullus Iulius  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:13:32am

One million, 1.2 million, 2 million... Actually, there was an infinite number there. Dancing. All on the head of a pin.
Seriously, though. I was down there Saturday, showing some out of town guests the sights and the Smithsonian museums. It's the only time most locals ever go to the Mall. For a protest, it was about a normal number. By and large more polite and better bathed than a lot of protests, but no larger than some I've seen and a couple I've been in. And nothing like an inauguration.

301 subsailor68  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:13:38am

Afternoon all!! Phew! Like all of us, I was really concerned about how we could pay for the proposed health care reform. Now I feel better.

White House to Launch Farmers Market

Last month, President Obama spoke about getting a farmers market started.

"You know Michelle set up that garden in the White House," he said. "One of the things we're trying to do now is to figure out, can we get a little farmer's market outside of the White House -- I'm not going to have all y'all just tromping around -- but right outside the White House."

To sell produce from: The White House is launching a farmers market Thursday that will sell local produce from Washington, D.C., area farmers,

Both D.C. area farmers are very excited!

;-)

302 sagehen  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:13:52am

re: #103 lawhawk

OT/FYI:
For those living/working in Lower Manhattan, NYC has sent out the following notice:

Notification 1 issued 9/16/09 at 12 PM. The Port Authority will conducting tests of its Emergency Mass Notification System at the World Trade Center from 9/16/09 to 9/18/09 between the hours of 9 AM & 5 PM. Residents in lower Manhattan may hear loud sirens and pre-recorded messages.

apparently the learned from their photo-op flyby.

303 Bagua  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:14:33am

What is a reasonable estimate of the actual attendance at this rally?

304 J.S.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:15:07am

Somewhat off topic -- there's a bill which is going through the parliamentary system in France which would see (potentially) thousands of Internet users banned...due to piracy (illegal downloading of music or films.) CNN report here... (yikes...)

305 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:15:18am
306 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:15:39am

re: #299 doubter4444

He comes to the conclusion that 1,900,000 people were there?
That's wack.

Nah, I don't believe there were 2 million there but I do believe a few hundred thousand is not out of the question. Half a million? Could be. I just want to know why it's so hard to find one stinkin' aerial photo. It would be helpful.

307 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:15:41am

Very important reading if you want to know where conservatism and the Republican party is headed...
Meet the man who changed Glenn Beck's life

Cleon Skousen was a right-wing crank whom even conservatives despised. Then Beck discovered him


...W. Cleon Skousen, Beck's favorite writer and the author of the bible of the 9/12 movement, "The 5,000 Year Leap." A once-famous anti-communist "historian," Skousen was too extreme even for the conservative activists of the Goldwater era, but Glenn Beck has now rescued him from the remainder pile of history, and introduced him to a receptive new audience.
308 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:16:02am

re: #301 subsailor68

Socialism!

309 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:16:18am
310 YeaToast  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:01am

re: #16 Charles

Yes, a lot of people are clinging to the 60k number despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

And why did you delete one of my comments that was nothing more than links to various crowd estimates?

This was the first blog I began reading after 9/11. You use to constantly point out the echo chamber that is dkos, and now you're deleting comments linking to mainstream newspaper articles quoting universities and police crowd estimates. What happened to you dude?

311 StillAMarine  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #276 Cato the Elder

I will put it this way. The female (not a lady) who spit on me will never repeat the mistake. It was at the University of Connecticut, near Beach Hall where the Department of Mathematics was located at the time. It was witnessed by three ladies who were infuriated at the assault. I am sure the female in question had a problem wiping her own spit off her clothes.
I would never hit a woman unless she was carrying a weapon.

312 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:19am

My boss has discovered that he should never have meddled with my numbers. Now I have to revise back to what I had initially.

*sigh*

313 Kragar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #297 SteveC

It's true! Water doesn't affect him! I saw him and the debbil woman standing in the rain the other day...

/// Obviously ///

Al Franken standing on the White House balcony calling his name saying "It's all for you!" was kind of a give away.

//

314 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #301 subsailor68

Wasn't the White House garden contaminated?

315 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:48am

re: #290 tradewind

No offense, but you clearly know little about health insurance. Rates are calculated based on morbidity statistics, to which a company will add to recover expenses. If someone has a certain condition, they can insure it. In many cases they choose not to because the premium wouldn't not be affordable.

316 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #286 Cato the Elder

We have first-person accounts.

Read the snopes message thread on the post I responded to. there are first person accounts there.

Given that the route back from Vietnam went through SFO, it doesn't surprise me that the accounts say "this only occurred in San Francisco". I was a kid back then living in San Mateo and I remember vividly the angry anti-war sentiment. My dad ran for Congress in 64 and 66 with a "Back LBJ" platform and there were people in my middle class neighborhood who would not speak to him or any of us well into the late 70s because he had supported the war. The climate in the Bay Area then was toxic, and it is no surprise to me that Zombie gets as many lunatic photos as s/he does.

Perhaps my experience makes me more likely to "swallow the 'myth' "

317 subsailor68  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

Socialism!

Hi Killgore!! LOL!!! Sounds like Beck's lead tonight.

Beck: "Tonight! Socialism comes to America like an overripe melon! Obama's Farmer's Market will crowd out private firms like ADM!"

318 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:18:58am

re: #309 buzzsawmonkey

Sustainable for who exactly? Locally grown produce can cost a lot more than the stuff in the supermarkets, and the variety of produce will be seasonal and limited.

319 cmarks  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:19:11am

I said it yesterday and I'll say it again, I think I love you. However, this Brendan guy may get the new love. ;-) Heh. All I can say is that it is REFRESHING to find someone in their right mind again; smart, sane, and sensible. Thank you!

320 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:19:53am

re: #303 Bagua

What is a reasonable estimate of the actual attendance at this rally?

How about trusting what the Parks Department and the police say?

Since every single rally organizer always whines and bitches about undercounts, regardless of what the rally is about or who it's for or whether it's left, right, or moronic convergence, wouldn't it be safe to assume that the people who maintain order and clean up the mess have an unbiased, reasonable, experience-based, empirical way of doing estimates?

I put it this way yesterday.

321 Servo Cicero  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:20:41am

OT: Snake found with a leg

Obviously a well thought out plan by the same people who brought you Crusader vs. Raptor Battlebots® and the always popular Stegosaurus Baptism Playset ®

322 sagehen  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:20:42am

re: #169 Thanos

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

When 357 electoral votes went to a liberal.

323 midwestgak  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:20:51am

re: #284 SteveC

The problem there, as I understand it, is that the rates of everyone in an area will be keyed to what the worst insurance risk in that pool would have to pay. So all you studly lizards and beautiful lizardettes would have to pay *my* rates.

/ I got a body like a rusted out '29 Ford. :(

When insurance companies write a group policy, they take the health risk of the group and "share" that risk by offering an $xx.00 premium.

A group of single males working in the food industry would create a lower premium than a group of married men in the construction business.

Single males have no dependent wifes that would potentially have children (maternity care). And the food industry doesn't pose the same risk as a construction worker who might break a bone falling off a ladder.

Will the government "one size fits all" look at risk the way successful health insurers do today? Not so much, IMO. A government program is not out to make a profit. Private insurers are which motivates them to be competitive. A government program will be a disaster because they will neither compete nor go out of business because of the cost it will have to impose to provide care.

324 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:20:56am
325 Wendya  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:21:11am

re: #314 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wasn't the White House garden contaminated?

It was tested and found to have a lead level of 93 ppm which is within the safe zone. It can't be certified organic but it's not unsafe.

326 subsailor68  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:21:44am

re: #318 lawhawk

Sustainable for who exactly? Locally grown produce can cost a lot more than the stuff in the supermarkets, and the variety of produce will be seasonal and limited.

That's for sure! When I was a kid (back during the Bronze Age) we had to work in my grandfather's garden all damn summer. Barely got enough produce to carry us through the two weeks after the first frost. And variety? Ha! "Hope you like peas, little subsailor!"

327 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:22:10am

re: #169 Thanos

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

That's what I keep wondering too.

328 Buckeye Nation  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:22:53am

re: #310 YeaToast

Here, here.

329 Bagua  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:23:04am

re: #320 Cato the Elder

How about trusting what the Parks Department and the police say?

Hi Cato,

Yes that would be fine, do you have that number? I just ask because I'm traveling and haven't time to go through the threads.

330 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:23:16am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

Wow, this explains a lot...

In 1981, Skousen published "The 5,000 Year Leap," the book for which, thanks to Beck, he is now best known. But it wasn't that Skousen book that made the biggest headline in the 1980s. Toward the end of Reagan's second term, Skousen became the center of a minor controversy when state legislators in California approved the official use of another of his books, the 1982 history text "The Making of America." Besides bursting with factual errors, Skousen's book characterized African-American children as "pickaninnies" and described American slave owners as the "worst victims" of the slavery system. Quoting the historian Fred Albert Shannon, "The Making of America" explained that "[slave] gangs in transit were usually a cheerful lot, though the presence of a number of the more vicious type sometimes made it necessary for them all to go in chains."

I really think there's a very strong element of racism at work these days. The stupid lefties have unfortunately overplayed the race card but it is very real and not very far below the surface.

331 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:24:16am

re: #169 Thanos

So exactly when did Truth stop being a conservative value?

Truth in incovenient in politics.

332 Desert Dog  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:24:24am

And now, introducing you new healthcare plan!

Congratulations to you all.
Senate's 10-year health fix would cost US $856B

333 Baier  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:24:48am

re: #320 Cato the Elder

Trusting the Parks Department? I don't know. Sounds like hearsay to me...how would that stand in the "Court of Cato?"

334 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:26:50am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

Beck continued to mention the book during 2008, but his Skousen obsession really kicked in as the 912 concept began to take shape. Even before Obama's inauguration, Beck had a game plan for a movement with Skousen at the center. On his Dec. 18, 2008, radio show, one month before Obama took office, Beck introduced his audience to the idea of a "September twelfth person."

"The first thing you could do," he said, "is get 'The 5,000 Year Leap.' Over my book or anything else, get 'The 5,000 Year Leap.' You can probably find it in the book section of GlennBeck.com, but read that. It is the principle. Please, No. 1 thing: Inform yourself about who we are and what the other systems are all about. 'The 5,000 Year Leap' is the first part of that. Because it will help you understand American free enterprise … Make that dedication of becoming a Sept. 12 person and I will help you do it next year."

335 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:27:10am

re: #329 Bagua

Hi Cato,

Yes that would be fine, do you have that number? I just ask because I'm traveling and haven't time to go through the threads.

Well, it seems the sitch is more complicated than I thought.

From a news report:

The problem is that Park Police and Capitol Police do not release such estimates and have not for years. The reasoning is that those giving out those numbers became too political. Whether on the right or the left, organizers repeatedly accused officials of underestimating the crowds. The only official agency to do so that day was DC police, which tweeted (under the handle @dcfireems) at 11:43am “UPDATE - several people treated for injury and illness on the Mall nothing extraordinary unofficial crowds 60,000-75,000 UNOFFICIAL.” We called the agency, which confirmed those numbers.

Of course, the DC police could be funded by Soros and ACORN, but since they were the ones who arrested Marion Barry, I'm willing to take their word for it. Unofficially.

336 MJ  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:28:10am

re: #321 Servo Cicero

OT: Snake found with a leg

They need to do a DNA analysis on it to see if it's related to Jimmy Carter.

337 StillAMarine  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:28:13am

re: #332 Desert Dog

856 billion? Gee, that sounds like a number some loons could claim to be the crowd count at the last DC tea party!
No less unbelievable than 2 million.

338 J.S.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:28:41am

re: #334 Killgore Trout

According to a Wiki article -- Skousen was born in Alberta (southern Alberta...)..a John Bircher and a Mormon...

339 J.S.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:29:53am

Never trust a Canadian writing a book titled: "The making of America..."

/

340 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

Thanks for your concern , but the Republican Party is not necessarily heading in (or under) the direction of Glenn Beck. I know, it's disappointing news.
He's a fascinating nut who unfortunately lets the noise in his head detract from some of the real and valid points he has made ( ACORN, the Czar thing, etc), but his more extremist views are still not the views of mainstream Republicans. I don't know any Republicans who think he's a guru.

341 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:30:15am

re: #338 J.S.

According to a Wiki article -- Skousen was born in Alberta (southern Alberta...)..a John Bircher and a Mormon...

Yup. That really explains a lot of what we see going on around the Tea Party movement.

342 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:30:19am

re: #338 J.S.

According to a Wiki article -- Skousen was born in Alberta (southern Alberta...)..a John Bircher dumb bitcher and a Mormon moron...

FTFY

343 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:31:28am

re: #336 MJ

OT: Snake found with a leg
They need to do a DNA analysis on it to see if it's related to Jimmy Carter.

Too late - Jimmah's DNA already came back positive from the dick they found with ears.

344 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:31:49am

re: #340 tradewind

The 912 protest was essentially a Glenn Beck rally. He is very influential these days. He has more influence on Republican politics that Rush or Michael Steele. I don't think there much doubt about it.

345 J.S.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:31:49am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

Yeah...I think the whole Tea Party deal is really Libertarian...

346 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:32:17am

Yes! Senate just blocked any further funding to ACORN, 83-7.
Who were the seven moonbats?

347 Desert Dog  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:32:43am

re: #337 StillAMarine

856 billion? Gee, that sounds like a number some loons could claim to be the crowd count at the last DC tea party!
No less unbelievable than 2 million.

Unfortunately, I think that is a lowball guess

348 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:32:54am
349 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:33:13am

re: #339 J.S.

Never trust a Canadian writing a book titled: "The making of America..."

/

Actually, Canadians are Americans.

So are Mexicans.

And Tierra del Fuegans.

350 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:33:15am
351 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:33:32am

re: #16 Charles

I see we still have people clinging to this falsehood.

Wipe harder! (That's what I do when things keep clinging).

352 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:34:12am

re: #344 Killgore Trout

The Nine Twelve whatever was not a function of the Republican Party.
And I'll worry when Beck is asked to keynote at the Republican convention, but that's not gonna happen.
It makes the left feel all tingly to see him as some kind of Republican de facto leader, though, so I'm resigned to seeing it in print and hearing it.

353 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:34:21am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

Yup. That really explains a lot of what we see going on around the Tea Party movement.

How can one "see" something they've admittedly never witnessed?

I understand what you actually are saying, but again it may open your eyes to actually wander even just around the area at least once

Everyday people

GASP!

354 Dianna  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:34:30am

re: #330 Killgore Trout

Wow, this explains a lot...

I really think there's a very strong element of racism at work these days. The stupid lefties have unfortunately overplayed the race card but it is very real and not very far below the surface.

Based on a 28-year old scandal in California? I remember that, and I remember the main question being, "Did anybody on the committee actually read this?"

It all descended into a welter of mumbled accusations and counter-accusations.

I don't see how you get to this strong element of racism. How many racist incidents do you see in a day?

The only one I've witnessed recently was a young black man being both racist and misogynist to an Asian woman.

355 Desert Dog  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:34:49am

re: #349 Cato the Elder

Actually, Canadians are Americans.

So are Mexicans.

And Tierra del Fuegans.

That explains why they are all here then! Thank you. Although, I have not met too many Tierra del Fuegans yet.

356 jill e  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:35:24am

Let's see what else is going on in the world:

Jimmy Carter says that you're racist if you oppose Obama
Obama school kids speech was drastically reworked
9/11 scale terrorism plot averted
Acorn scandal - Senate votes to cut Acorn funding
Charlie Gibson - Clueless at ABC
IBD poll indicates that nearly 1/2 of doctors might quit with Obama health care reform

/just sayin'

357 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:35:28am

re: #350 taxfreekiller

LAX January 22, 1969, 11:30, left Da Nang, re-fueled Guam, then Alaska, then LAX, 150 to 200 of them, there was a con-ex wire enclosure from the
ladder on the plane to the entrance to the terminal, the Vietnam Vets Against the war were on the second level balcony, they threw tomato's, oranges, what appeared and smelled like fecal matter, about 50 of us,
Jessie, went up there and confronted them, the police asked him to not start any thing, he said "I finish things". we left in Denny's car with his wife and mother, they threw something at the car and broke the back door glass.

like that,

many of them looked and act just like you

Thanks for that account. I accept it.

As for what I look and act like, my nick is blue. Come visit me, if you like, you little twit.

358 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:36:06am

Oh, Shocka. Roland Burris voted against cutting ACORN funding.
Not that it matters, he's gone anyway.

359 tradewind  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:37:04am

re: #356 jill e

You had to love Charlie Gibson's quote re the ACORN story: ' I think we'll just leave this one to the cables'.

360 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:37:15am

re: #350 taxfreekiller

LAX January 22, 1969, 11:30, left Da Nang, re-fueled Guam, then Alaska, then LAX, 150 to 200 of them, there was a con-ex wire enclosure from the
ladder on the plane to the entrance to the terminal, the Vietnam Vets Against the war were on the second level balcony, they threw tomato's, oranges, what appeared and smelled like fecal matter, about 50 of us,
Jessie, went up there and confronted them, the police asked him to not start any thing, he said "I finish things". we left in Denny's car with his wife and mother, they threw something at the car and broke the back door glass.

like that,

many of them looked and act just like you

tfk? Your personal estimation--how many of those Vietnam Vets Aginst the War were actually vets? Other than the one obvious person.

361 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:37:47am

re: #355 Desert Dog

That explains why they are all here then! Thank you. Although, I have not met too many Tierra del Fuegans yet.

It's called North America and South America. To think that "American" automatically means someone from the country with the 37th-best health care system in the world is just wrong.

362 E.T.  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:39:16am

re: #262 Wendya

I look at it like this… regardless of the real numbers:

Those on the left want to downplay the numbers the same as those on the right want to pump them up.

Lets suppose for a moment that the left is correct in that the “teabaggers” are a small racist group of Fox news viewers on the fringes of the republican party.

If this is true then why is passing the Healthcare Bill such a problem ? … It should have been a slam dunk for Obama .. He is struggling within his own party to pass this. It’s for a reason that the democrats are showing resistance, they are not stupid.

Sounds to me like there may be a little more to the “teabaggers” than the democrats are telling us. Their numbers at the DC rally likely reflect many more than the 60k low ball estimate. Otherwise Obama would have signed his healthcare bill last month.

363 debutaunt  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:40:06am

re: #111 OldLineTexan

hahahahahahahahahhahahaa

364 Bagua  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:41:40am

re: #357 Cato the Elder

Thanks for the input, I see the front page post I missed put's it at 60-70K, that works for me.

365 jill e  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:42:46am

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." —Shakespeare, Hamlet Act 3, scene 2

366 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:45:57am

re: #361 Cato the Elder

It's called North America and South America. To think that "American" automatically means someone from the country with the 37th-best health care system in the world is just wrong.

But American DOES automatically mean someone from the USA.
People from Canada are Canadians.
People from Mexico are Mexicans.
It's just a fact.

367 nonic  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:46:49am

re: #290 tradewind

The insurance companies are fat from the fact that the premiums of young , relatively healthy insured people, who don't make claims, carry those with underlying conditions. They shouldn't have to raise rates.

(1) Add 30-40-47 million more people insured, (2) mandate guaranteed issue regardless of pre-existing conditions, (3) cover mental health, which I believe was done with the TARP legislation, and (4) subsidize insurance for low-income people, which is going to cost A LOT --- and it will probably take much more than just hitting on the young and healthy will generate. Don't forget many of the "young and healthy" are, by definition, going to be the "low income" needing subsidies.

368 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:48:21am
369 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:48:40am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

Damn, you can be such an insufferable asshole sometimes, Cato...

370 acwgusa  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:48:53am

re: #270 midwestgak

"Plan would require almost all Americans to buy insurance by 2013 or face fines."

"Insurers couldn't turn away people for pre-existing conditions."

"The time for action is now. And it will happen."

If they can't afford to buy Health Insurance, how the hell are they going to pay the fines?

371 doubter4444  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:49:07am

re: #243 SixDegrees

Another data point: 0bama's inauguration drew a crowd estimated at 1.5 to 1.8 million. It brought DC to it's knees, with police and the NPS completely overtaxed, a complete lack of accommodations for miles around the city, massive, impenetrable gridlock and a swamping of emergency services both on the streets and at hospitals. This followed weeks of detailed planning - the crowd was simply too damn big to deal with.

Anyone claiming estimates even remotely near such figures has to explain how no one in DC seems to have noticed the chaos and mayhem that many people bring to town.

Ah, but you see, that's because the teabaggers are nice people that clean up after themselves and don't litter, unlike those dirty liberals after the Inauguration.

I wish this was sarcasm, but I've already seen that argument bandied about.

372 jorline  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:50:26am

re: #370 acwgusa

If they can't afford to buy Health Insurance, how the hell are they going to pay the fines?

Look at 47 line on your new tax return forms. :)

373 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:51:59am

re: #366 Spare O'Lake

But American DOES automatically mean someone from the USA.
People from Canada are Canadians.
People from Mexico are Mexicans.
It's just a fact.

Nope. Ask a Brazilian.

374 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:54:45am
375 avanti  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 11:14:11am

re: #67 iceweasel

THANK YOU KT. I've been saying this about Rasmussen for months. So has avanti, IIRC.

Still, if you like Rasmussen, just follow the trend line and discount the raw number. They are only 3-5 points lower, but that's enough to make them the go-to conservative pollster on Fox and Drudge.

376 debutaunt  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 11:27:58am

re: #370 acwgusa

If they can't afford to buy Health Insurance, how the hell are they going to pay the fines?

A very fine bailout, silly.

377 Lee Coller  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 12:07:52pm

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but this link was posted in the spinoffs purporting to show that there were 2M people present based on the analysis of past events. It's complete nonsense of course, but currently has more updings than downdings (I have the sole downding).

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

378 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 12:17:51pm

re: #377 Lee Coller

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but this link was posted in the spinoffs purporting to show that there were 2M people present based on the analysis of past events. It's complete nonsense of course, but currently has more updings than downdings (I have the sole downding).

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Argh. What a bunch of laughable nonsense. They want me to post something about it too -- well, I just might. But it's not going to make them happy.

379 Reader2  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 5:09:40pm

I was at the DC march on Saturday. The attendance numbers have varied wildly - 50,000 to the 2 million that was reported in the British press. National Review seems to have come up with a reasonable figure: more than 200,000, based on Metro ridership, but their count does not include the busloads that came in just for the day.
[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

I am not a part of any group. As a libertarian, I'm dismayed at the insane level of spending going on in Washington and was compelled to attend the march after the success of all the Tea Parties. The deficit and debt were the major concerns for most of the marchers.

From Nick Gillespie at reason.com - [Link: reason.com...]
"First, the crowd was truly huge. Second, the crowd was from all over the place (both geographically and ideologically). And third, the crowd, well-behaved and stunningly normal in the main, was genuinely pissed off at out of control spending and government policies. "Stop spending," was the basic answer to any questions about what Congress and the president should do come tomorrow. Throw the bums of either party out come next fall was the second most-common answer."

Also at reason.com - "Quick Impressions of the D.C. 9/12 Protest" by Matt Welch - [Link: reason.com...]
"Of the people I ended up talking to, the general vibe was that they were conservative, and then either Republican, formerly Republican, or independent. Every single one had unkind words to say about George W. Bush's spending and governing record, though none had protested him. None expressed trust in Republicans, and most preferred a "throw-all-the-bums-out" strategy. All but one did not care about Obama's birth certificate controversy, and those I asked thought it was foolish to bring guns to political gatherings."

There was no violence, and no one was arrested. Marchers were friendly and chatty as we all snapped pictures of the hand-made signs along the route. Clever signs far outnumbered the nasty ones. At the end of the day, everyone cleaned up - no trash left behind on the mall. It was an impressive showing.

Sure, there were some crazies. But I fear an out-of-control, expansionist, federal government far more than I'm concerned about birthers and religious nuts. Beck's kind of crazy, but I commend him and FOX for their persistence on ACORN. I found Obama's cult-like following during the campaign alarming, but fortunately, that seems to have abated as young people have returned to their lives.

There are just too many issues of lasting import to spend time worrying about the nuts. And the bigots. Disagreements with President Obama are so often portrayed as racism, that the charge has become trite.

I object to Obama's policies on many issues: spending; the economy; healthcare; Israel and the Mid-East; Iran; Honduras; our relationship with Britain; defenses for Eastern Europe; nuclear energy; drilling for oil and gas; on and on. And I find him untrustworthy - he too often denies his previous stance on issues.

Charles, I started reading LGF shortly after 9/11 (don't recall how I was linked) and was a daily visitor for years. You provided information and reports on Islamic terrorism from around the world, and I'm grateful for that invaluable education.

I've been saddened by the vitriol I continue to read about among bloggers I respect - I hope there will soon be a truce in the blog wars.

380 swamprat  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 5:40:10pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

And for the record: If I knew the name and address of a soldier-spitting hippie from those days (or these), I'd drive to its house right now, ring the bell, spit in its face and walk away. America is a big place, but I'm free to move about it, I have a big, un-PC car, and lots of time.


Her. That's the versions I heard. One by an alleged spitter.

381 solomonpanting  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 5:52:02pm

I saw this photo at the linked site---scroll down to pic number seven. It's the only one in black and white. Then I found this pic of the 1963 March on Washington. I sent an email to the site's webmaster pointing out the similarities and asked if it was a coincidence. He replied that indeed it was.
The cloud patterns are the same, to begin with.

382 Lee Coller  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:04:33pm

re: #381 solomonpanting

I saw this photo at the linked site---scroll down to pic number seven. It's the only one in black and white. Then I found this pic of the 1963 March on Washington. I sent an email to the site's webmaster pointing out the similarities and asked if it was a coincidence. He replied that indeed it was.
The cloud patterns are the same, to begin with.

Good catch, I see a lot more similarities than just cloud patterns. Its clearly the same picture.

383 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:18:03pm

re: #378 Charles

Argh. What a bunch of laughable nonsense. They want me to post something about it too -- well, I just might. But it's not going to make them happy.

Dear Charles,

My point was less about it being two million but rather that it was likely far more than 60,000. I'm going on the perspectives of Michael Medved, Hugh Hewitt, and Dennis Prager, all three of whom were there. I'm also taking the perspective of people I know personally who went and felt that 60 to 70K was way low.

In reading from you and Kilgore all I've gotten back was how laughable it is but no one seems to do anything more than say just that. I'm sincerely asking a couple of questions, one of which is why it's so damned difficult to find an aerial shot of this at its height?

It really has appeared that questioning anything around here automatically puts you in a Paulian/Nirther/Take My Gun to the Rally crowd. I don't get why that has to be the case especially when I and others don't buy into any of that.

And by the way, don't be to sure you know what makes me happy. A very brief explanation from someone for whom I have had respect ever since I joined up would be one thing. I know you're busy. That's why I appreciate your time.

PT

384 Lee Coller  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:41:52pm

re: #383 princetrumpet

How does a bogus argument that there's really close to 2M participants support your argument?

385 solomonpanting  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 6:56:23pm

re: #382 Lee Coller

Good catch, I see a lot more similarities than just cloud patterns. Its clearly the same picture.

I just received this email from the site's webmaster:

I was assured that the photo was from 9/12, but that source may have been wrong. It was provided “as is” in poster format, so they could have used any stock photo of that location to illustrate the point of the poster.
You are probably correct. The photo is probably from the 1963 march.
Sorry for any confusion.

386 princetrumpet  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 7:02:07pm

re: #384 Lee Coller

How does a bogus argument that there's really close to 2M participants support your argument?

Dear Lee,

I said I was depending more on the eyewitness accounts of people with whom I have spoken. The paper by the fellow, in my view, just supports the idea that there were more than 60K. I said from the outset that I don't buy the figure of 2 million. It didn't seem to me that the had an agenda other than to posit a theory based on the best info he had. If he's wrong, he's wrong. All I've basically is ask repeatedly as to why he's wrong, why it's bogus. I do that with sincerity.

Now, it seems people may be submitting fauxtography which would clearly be a desperate move and does nothing to support the idea that there were more than 60K. That's unfortunate and I don't get that sort of nonsense.

387 IdeaLover  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:08:22pm

It really bothers me that a web site ostensibly dedicated to defending America is focusing on nits regarding the tea party protests, while failing utterly, as far as I can tell, to attend to essentials.

Yes, there are nut jobs there - but the liberal rallys/protests have a "destroy America" purpose and are composed almost entirely of nut jobs. Who _cares_ whether there were 30,000, 100,000 or 2 million attendees at the most recent tea party? The point is that there were a _massive_ number of people there. That massiveness is important because the liberal rallys/protests are essentially always gorged with people pre-arranged to be there by the liberal "leadership", but the tea parties are truly grassroots. The "astroturf" accusation by the left is pure envy.

Subtract the nut jobs from the typical leftist event, and you have empty fields of trash. Subtract them from the tea parties, and you have large numbers of honest, hard-working, decent people who still have enough of the American sense of life left in them to see that Obama and his minions are _anti-American_ ... and they want no part of it, and won't lay down for it. Few have the kind of philosophic vision to mount an effective intellectual defense against the leftists (and their ubiquitous equivalents on the right), but the ones that do are so far superior to anybody who speaks at leftist events that there is no comparison.

The tea parties are _enormously_ significant, yet LGF chooses to focus on the worst in them. In so doing, LGF gives support to leftist crazies, and far, far worse, associates the majority best of America with the tiny minority of crazies who attend the same events.

MP

388 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 16, 2009 10:15:59pm

re: #387 IdeaLover

Yeah -- who cares if the organizers are connected to Birthers, Ron Paul, and the John Birch Society? What could go wrong?

389 princetrumpet  Thu, Sep 17, 2009 6:35:25am

Fine, Charles, you win. For the record, Maxine Waters agrees with you.

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

390 Eowyn2  Thu, Sep 17, 2009 7:57:01am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

Right up there with the "my uncle/friend/someone I once heard about got spat on when he came home from Vietnam" myth.

As my brother, USMC 1968-1972, got off the plane in LA (HI to LA) he and the rest of the servicemen had to go through a cordoned off area on the tarmac he was spat on. This was the days when 99% of deplaning went on OUTSIDE the terminal. Yes, they were spat on, YES they were defiled and called baby killers, murderers, thugs. If you don't believe these things happened. Go to the public library and look up Vietnam War Protests.

If you're the Elder, the Younger must be 2.

391 AtadOFF  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:49:27pm

re: #381 solomonpanting

Good catch. I think this pic is from the same time and make it a little clearer.

[Link: hitchcock.itc.virginia.edu...]

392 AtadOFF  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 6:17:00pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Not so official according to the man who made it.

"Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, said the local government no longer provides official crowd estimates because they can become politicized. But the day of the rally, Piringer unofficially told one reporter that he thought between 60,000 and 75,000 people had shown up.

“It was in no way an official estimate,” he said."

This from the article found here.

[Link: www.politifact.com...]

393 AtadOFF  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 6:37:09pm

re: #117 Buckeye Nation

They've planted their standard and will hold their ground.

For your edification.

[Link: qik.com...]

[Link: www.politifact.com...]


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