New Protests Break Out in Iran

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Huge demonstrations have broken out again in Iran. In a clear rebuke to the Ahmadinejad regime’s support for Hezbollah and Hamas, protesters have taken to the streets chanting, “Neither Gaza, nor Lebanon, I give my life to Iran!” — on Quds Day, Iran’s “official” day of solidarity with the Palestinians.

Youtube Video

A Farsi-language website has photographs of Mohammed Khatami walking through the crowds — reportedly he was knocked to the ground during a scuffle and his clothes torn.

(Note: the photo above is apparently from June, not from the current protests. It was misidentified by several sites.)

Robert Mackey has a lot of coverage of the protests, including more videos: Latest Updates on Protests in Iran.

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343 comments
1 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:03:34am

Inspiring.

2 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:03:57am

He tore his dinner jacket?

3 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:04:47am

Good luck to them.

4 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:04:57am

Let's see if Barry Obama offers anything more support than he did last time, which was almost none.

5 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:05:16am

To put the "Not Gaza, Not Lebanon, my life for Iran!" into context, it's "Quds Day" in Iran, basically their Palestinian Solidarity day.

6 fizzlogic  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:05:22am

Wow, does this mean instapundit will go back to being green?

7 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:05:48am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's see if Barry Obama offers anything more support than he did last time, which was almost none.

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

8 Baier  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:05:49am

Obama must be on a smoke break...

9 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:05am

I pray they re-take their country. It would be good for the sane citizens of Iran to control their government.

10 Baier  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:25am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

I'd be just as hard on Bush too...at least I like to think I would have been.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:26am

re: #5 laZardo

To put the "Not Gaza, Not Lebanon, my life for Iran!" into context, it's "Quds Day" in Iran, basically their Palestinian Solidarity day.

Yes, that's right. I should mention that above. Will edit.

12 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:32am
7:16 a.m.: The government person with the loud speaker alternatively says “Death to America” and “Death to Israel” both popular chants in the government-sponsored “Palestine Day.” However, the the crowd, instead of repeating this, repeatedly chants “Death to Russia” because of Russia’s ongoing support of the IRI. By the end of the video the man in the loudspeaker is quiet.

That's incredible.

13 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:36am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

And what does that change?

14 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:41am

I hope they throw the theocrats off their backs, who
brutally whip teenage boys to death for the crime of eating while they are hungry.

15 The Curmudgeon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:06:57am

Ahmadinejad cares as much about those demonstrations as Nancy Pelosi cares about the tea parties.

16 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:07:06am

re: #11 Charles

Thanks. Oh, and "Quds" is the Arabic/Farsi name for Jerusalem.

17 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:07:15am

More ranting and holocaust denial from dinner-jacket

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:08am

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

And what does that change?

The point, of course, is that Barack Obama is no better and no worse than George W. Bush in this regard.

19 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:24am

I'll be wearin' o' the green again today.

20 S'latch  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:38am

Mohammed Khatami was knocked to the ground during a scuffle and his clothes torn? Sounds like a rough crowd.

21 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:48am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

Thank you.

22 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:51am

re: #17 karmic_inquisitor

More ranting and holocaust denial from dinner-jacket

He needed something upon which they could all agree.

23 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:51am

re: #18 Charles

The point, of course, is that Barack Obama is no better or no worse than George W. Bush in this regard.

Agreed. Now, I hope our President can be much better than the last one, Bush. Right?

24 Baier  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:52am

re: #20 Lawrence Schmerel

Mohammed Khatami was knocked to the ground during a scuffle and his clothes torn? Sounds like a rough crowd.

Sounds sexy.

25 Flyovercountry  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:08:52am

This is a positive sign. One reason for the Blood Libel's and the continuous stream of propaganda is that blind hatred is not a natural thing. The mullahs and their ilk have to use these things to prop up the kind of venom needed to advance their sick agenda. The problem they face is the same problem all demagogues face, the need to become more and more outrageous to keep themselves on the leading edge. It is a position which can never be simply maintained. Eventually, it will have to come crashing down.

26 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:09:54am

Has the State Department come out and condemned the rioters yet?

27 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:10:07am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

Were Iranian police shooting protestors in the street when Bush was in office?

28 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:11:47am
Some background on the new chant “Not for Gaza, not for Lebanon, my life for Iran!” It was first heard a few nights ago at a demonstration in the city of Qom after a speech by the reformist cleric Grand Ayatollah Sa’anei. A video of the clip and the chants circulated on YouTube, and after hearing it, was promoted for today by dissidents like Mohsen Sazegara and on Twitter. That it spread to all over the country so quickly is somewhat remarkable.

The reason it has special resonance today: first, the demonstrators are conveying that the regime will no longer be able to hide its shortcomings by focusing people’s attention on the Arab/Israeli conflict (until you go to Iran, you cannot comprehend how extensive this effort is). Second, they’re reaffirming their nationalism in response to charges that they are somehow traitors for not supporting Ahmadi. The chant also alludes to the fact that Iran’s government, as more and more of its population sinks into proverty, lavishes billions of dollars on terror groups in Gaza and Lebanon, a deeply unpopular among many Iranians.

How different would the middle east be if hamas et al lost their funding from Iran?

29 S'latch  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:11:49am

re: #24 Baier

I am.

30 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:11:52am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

31 Chip Designer  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:12:06am

I have noticed that the new comments button will occasionally show a much larger number of new comments than actually exist. It said (12), and when I just pushed it, one new comment appeared. I am running Firefox under Vista.

Most of the time it is correct, but occasionally it is very wrong.

32 Pullus Iulius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:12:28am

Whenever I hear people whining because they think their rights are being denied by some piddling inconvenience, I think of demonstrations like this.

33 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:12:52am

re: #27 Mad Al-Jaffee

Were Iranian police shooting protestors in the street when Bush was in office?

I didn't think it was an issue if Bush did it or not. I'm curious how that makes a difference in regards to our current President?

34 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:13:14am

re: #31 Chip Designer

I have noticed that the new comments button will occasionally show a much larger number of new comments than actually exist. It said (12), and when I just pushed it, one new comment appeared. I am running Firefox under Vista.

Most of the time it is correct, but occasionally it is very wrong.


Those are the super sekrit undergound bunker communications. You aren't supposed to see those. /

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:14:15am

re: #30 DaddyG

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

I'm just trying to head off the inevitable bashing of Obama for not supporting the protesters, when it's a complex situation and many of the opposition groups themselves do NOT want the US to make grandiose statements of support -- and risk bringing down the wrath of the regime.

36 badger1970  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:14:47am

Obama is the current president and had time to voice his silence is consent before. This time no different (in truth what can be said to appease the masses?).

37 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:14:53am

re: #30 DaddyG

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

Exact-o, daddy-o!

Obama comes out with feel-good bluster and another dozen young girls bleed to death on the streets, with the thugs fired up about "foreign infiltrators".

Any conservative blowhard who can't wrap his brains around that one doesn't have them.

38 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:16:04am

re: #28 Sharmuta

How different would the middle east be if hamas et al lost their funding from Iran?


It could be significant. I imagine the Saudis and Jordan might take up some of the slack but it could make a dent.

39 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:16:10am
40 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:16:36am
A Farsi-language website has photographs of Mohammed Khatami walking through the crowds — reportedly he was knocked to the ground during a scuffle and his clothes torn.

Charles- you might want to look into this more. From the NYT:

Update %P% 10:49 a.m. Thanks to a reader for pointing out that at least one image we had previously posted, of former President Mohammad Khatami losing his turban while being attacked, was not shot today. Iranian journalist Omid Memarian posted this image of a turbanless Mr. Khatami on his blog in the immediate aftermath of the June 12 election — so clearly the person who uploaded it to iReport today was misinformed or attempting to mislead us.

This continues to be a problem for news organizations forced to rely on anonymous bloggers who are frequently also partisan activists for information from countries that close their doors to independent reporters. We appreciate the crowd-sourcing help from readers very much.

41 lostlakehiker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:16:52am

re: #14 Ojoe

I hope they throw the theocrats off their backs, who
brutally whip teenage boys to death for the crime of eating while they are hungry.

This sort of theocratic excess isn't even in conformity with the written traditions of Islam. There are exceptions to the fasting requirements for Ramadan. Children, the elderly, the ill, and those whose work is so physically taxing that they must eat, or drink, to carry on, are given a pass.

Pitiless rigidity in the enforcement of rules that were expressly established with exceptions is sadistic even from the perspective of fundamentalist Islam. Somebody needs to say so, from the pulpit, in a mosque. He'll be martyred, but that might be the tipping point that topples this cruel regime.

42 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:17:33am

I imagine we'll see these protests bubble up from time to time over the next few years. I don't know if there's enough momentum to topple the regime quite yet.

43 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:18:09am

re: #41 lostlakehiker

I have never been able to get that boy's death out of my mind.

44 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:18:15am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

That was a disappointment for me.

45 Flyovercountry  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:18:34am

re: #18 Charles

The point, of course, is that Barack Obama is no better and no worse than George W. Bush in this regard.

This is a great point on many levels. Charles Krauthammer once wrote about Reagan not being the Reagan that is remembered today. We are always looking for the perfect candidate, not realizing that nobody is going to represent our values perfectly, as there are just too many of us. While I voted for Bush twice, I can't help but notice that Bush himself did not follow his own policies in regards to Israel on many occasions. He was a free spender in far too many instances, and way too willing to pander to any group for votes when the timing was convenient. Simply being better by comparison, is not truly a great achievement.

46 lurking faith  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:18:37am

re: #30 DaddyG

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

I was thinking that, too.
It's their fight; I don't know what we can do that would not backfire.

(However, a statement that we condemn the shooting of unarmed protestors would be appropriate whenever and wherever it occurs. I hope it doesn't occur this time around.)

47 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:19:36am

re: #40 Sharmuta

Clearly the rift in the Guardian Council is still visible and widening. The question is how much of Iran will it take apart if and when it collapses, and will Dinnerjacket have managed to set up the Revolutionary Guard in the event that it does.

48 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:19:44am
49 DaddyG  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:19:48am

re: #46 lurking faith

Yes- about the only statement that could be made is a hope that the Iranian people will be respected by their government- but silence may still be the better course for us on the "outside".

50 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:19:49am

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I imagine we'll see these protests bubble up from time to time over the next few years. I don't know if there's enough momentum to topple the regime quite yet.

Time for the tried and true system of covert support of dissidents

51 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:20:10am

re: #30 DaddyG

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

Excellent point. I can't help but wonder, what if the citizens brought about a regime change in Iran? Would the administration and State Dept. recognize that new government as legitimate? They sure took the wrong side in Honduras when their supreme court LEGALLY ousted President Zalaya for violating their constitution.

52 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:20:24am

re: #48 taxfreekiller

ya, not a good time to get involved helping these people,
best to wait until the mullas set off their nuke and kill 2 or 3 million.

Works for me.

53 middy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:20:25am

Let's hope the IRI is more even-handed in their response than last time.

54 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:20:56am

re: #50 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Time for the tried and true system of covert support of dissidents

I feel pretty confident that we've been doing that for decades.

55 J.S.  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:22:05am

re: #35 Charles

Any U.S. "involvement" would be disastrous -- it would be immediately used by the extremists to denounce the protesters -- the protesters would be characterized as "American lackeys", "C.I.A. plants", etc. (and many of these protest groups don't "like" the U.S.)

56 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:22:13am

re: #47 laZardo

Clearly the rift in the Guardian Council is still visible and widening. The question is how much of Iran will it take apart if and when it collapses, and will Dinnerjacket have managed to set up the Revolutionary Guard in the event that it does.

The photo of Rafsanjani looks legitimate.

57 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:22:35am

regarding Bush on Iran, here is a WSJ opinion item from a Cheney staffer that makes the following candid admission:

As someone who served in Mr. Bush's White House, I can attest that the administration's Iran policy was far from perfect. The Islamic Republic's ongoing nuclear program is proof enough of the policy's serious shortcomings.

He goes on to point out where he feels they were effective.

Obama is certainly on record as favoring a soft power approach with Iran calling for negotiations and whatnot. With recent datapoints indicating that the administration is not seeing any progress on that line, we will see from this episode and the UN meetings next week if the Obama admin is going to move to a more confrontational posture or if there will still be efforts to get the fists unclenched.

58 Cheesehead  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:23:12am

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Works for me.

Depends where and who those 2 or 3 million are, don't you think?

59 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:23:30am

re: #54 Killgore Trout

I feel pretty confident that we've been doing that for decades.

a violation of the Prime Directive?...in for a penny, in for a pound...I'd support a full blown confrontation with Iran

60 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:24:00am

re: #31 Chip Designer

I have noticed that the new comments button will occasionally show a much larger number of new comments than actually exist. It said (12), and when I just pushed it, one new comment appeared. I am running Firefox under Vista.

I know about that bug, thanks. It's on the list of minor issues.

61 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:24:07am

re: #30 DaddyG

I don't really care if "they did it too". However, the President (any President) is in a tricky spot when it comes to responding to these types of demonstrations. Showing too much support for Iranian dissidents can doom them by making their internal struggle look like a struggle against foreign influence and legitimizing the regimes position as defenders of Iran.

Yea I was thinking something along these lines. Basically what would it get us for our president to support this or that group of protesters. Not saying the answer is "nothing" but I'd hope we'd be a little more strategic than to just jump on a band wagon.

62 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:24:55am

re: #58 Cheesehead

Depends where and who those 2 or 3 million are, don't you think?

Together now, sarcasm.

63 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:25:53am

re: #58 Cheesehead

Depends where and who those 2 or 3 million are, don't you think?

The next Tea Party?

64 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:26:31am

UNREST IN IRAN

June 18, 2003

JIM LEHRER: Margaret Warner has our Iran story.

MARGARET WARNER: For more than a week, university students in Iran have been staging nightly protests [which were no where as big as the last round -BH]. At first, the issue was rising college tuition costs. But before long, thousands in Tehran and elsewhere were shouting for democratic reforms. Some clashed with riot police. Some called for the death of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme religious leader. Still others denounced Iran's elected president, Mohammad Khatami. On Sunday, President Bush, who once identified Iran as part of the axis of evil, endorsed the students' protests.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I believe that some day freedom will prevail everywhere, because freedom is a powerful drive for people to... and it's the beginnings of people expressing themselves toward a free Iran, which I think is positive.

PBS


Also, aid to Egypt is no longer conditional on a percentage going to Egyptian pro-democracy movements - the reason MUBU didn't come to Washington during GWBs second term.


Gates: Egyptian Military Aid Not Conditional on Democracy, Human Rights
May 6th, 2009 by Eoghan

After meeting with Egypt’s President Hosni Mubarak, Defense Secretary Robert Gates declared that U.S. military assistance to Egypt would not be tied to Egypt’s record on democracy or human rights, according to a report (in Arabic) by al-Jazeera mentioned by Marc Lynch. As Lynch notes, “There’s been much debate and discussion of how the Obama administration would deal with democracy concerns; this reported statement by Gates would be one of the most direct and disheartening public statements yet of its downgrading.”

[Link: pomed.org...]

Unless we're now saying that Bush didn't push for the democratization of the Muslim world and that Obama wasn't against.

65 Cheesehead  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:27:42am

re: #63 Leonidas Hoplite

The next Tea Party?


Not funny. There's one in my city this weekend.

66 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:27:52am

re: #64 Ben Hur

Right -- he did nothing to support the protesters, just as I said.

67 Flyovercountry  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:28:09am

re: #61 Locker

Yea I was thinking something along these lines. Basically what would it get us for our president to support this or that group of protesters. Not saying the answer is "nothing" but I'd hope we'd be a little more strategic than to just jump on a band wagon.

It took a while, but we agree on something. The other point of course, is that would we actually be helping those people with any type of rhetoric? I can remember pumping the Kurds up with rhetoric, and then failing to give any material support. the result of that of course was disasterous for the Kurdish people, as the maniacle despot in charge dropped nerve gas on them.

68 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:28:13am

re: #59 albusteve

a violation of the Prime Directive?...in for a penny, in for a pound...I'd support a full blown confrontation with Iran

I don't think we can get away with that. It would taint whatever new government is formed after the mullahs leave. Whatever is going on it has to at least appear to be a homegrown thing.

69 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:29:34am

re: #55 J.S.

Any U.S. "involvement" would be disastrous -- it would be immediately used by the extremists to denounce the protesters -- the protesters would be characterized as "American lackeys", "C.I.A. plants", etc. (and many of these protest groups don't "like" the U.S.)

The US is always involved.

Questions Remain about Iran Democracy Fund

Washington DC – In a controversial move last month, Congress appropriated $60 million for a package of State Department programs designed to “promote democracy, human rights, and the rule of law in Iran,” in part, by funding the activities of Iranian dissident groups.

BBL

70 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:29:50am

re: #35 Charles

I'm just trying to head off the inevitable bashing of Obama for not supporting the protesters, when it's a complex situation and many of the opposition groups themselves do NOT want the US to make grandiose statements of support -- and risk bringing down the wrath of the regime.

I saw a clip of Ahmadinejad's speech which prompted the demonstrations, in which the little dictator blamed absolutely everything in the entire world on the Zionists.
Even by his standards, it was breathtaking.

71 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:30:43am
72 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:31:05am

Endorsed = Nothing.

73 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:31:24am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

I don't think we can get away with that. It would taint whatever new government is formed after the mullahs leave. Whatever is going on it has to at least appear to be a homegrown thing.

you're right about that...just an emotional pipe dream

74 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:32:42am

re: #72 Ben Hur

Endorsed = Nothing.

I understand that you really want to hate Obama for everything he does or doesn't do. But his policy toward the protestors is absolutely no different than Bush's.

75 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:33:06am

From the NYT link:

Some background on the new chant “Not for Gaza, not for Lebanon, my life for Iran!” It was first heard a few nights ago at a demonstration in the city of Qom after a speech by the reformist cleric Grand Ayatollah Sa’anei. A video of the clip and the chants circulated on YouTube, and after hearing it, was promoted for today by dissidents like Mohsen Sazegara and on Twitter. That it spread to all over the country so quickly is somewhat remarkable.

It seems after the initial crack down, the Iranian people have been able to get access again to modern communications to spread information. The genie is out of the bottle.

76 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:34:29am

re: #48 taxfreekiller

Yeah, what's a couple of million dead Jews. Looks like ol Jimmy Carter's Iran foreign policy is baaacckkk

77 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:34:53am

It does seem to be reaching a tipping point in Iran - the protests are larger and more vehement. But I'm not too confident that we're at the tipping point just yet. The regime still has the means to put down these protests.

78 gregb  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:35:02am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

I don't know, I thought his "vibrant culture" speech was a pretty good speech.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

79 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:35:03am

A big part of this is that Dinner-Jacket originally ran on a reform platform that focused on domestic issues like inflation. Not "reform" in terms of what the west characterizes as "reformist" (eg secularists) but in terms of fighting corruption and bringing about a better economic environment.

Needless to say, he did none of those things and also Putinized what they had in the way of a democracy.

Bush et al has funneled money to dissidents. To do that effectively against a paranoid regime, you need to do it without drawing attention to it. If the Obama admin is doing the same, they are being smart to not draw attention to it either lest they undermine the policy.

80 KingKenrod  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:35:30am

It's not true Bush did not try to help protesters, but his efforts were counter-productive. And Obama is continuing the same policy, slightly modified:

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

Bush expanded the program in 2006 to $66 million. Iran responded by arresting and cracking down on activist groups.

Obama decided to continue the program, but the funds were not specifically marked for Iran, but for "Near Eastern Regional Democracy Initiative", which could just as easily be targeted for Israel as Iran.

81 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:35:38am

re: #76 Mikey_Dallas

That's completely unfair, imo. Just yesterday, the President okayed missile defense that will include Israel.

82 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:36:09am

re: #77 Charles

Referring to Sharmuta's #75, I am reserving my optimism. They just put down the previous protests with staggering technique. They know exactly how to deal with these protests now, and they will not hesitate to do so again.

83 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:36:40am

re: #67 Flyovercountry

It took a while, but we agree on something. The other point of course, is that would we actually be helping those people with any type of rhetoric? I can remember pumping the Kurds up with rhetoric, and then failing to give any material support. the result of that of course was disasterous for the Kurdish people, as the maniacle despot in charge dropped nerve gas on them.

Agree with everything you said, re. Bush 41's F-up and the end of Gulf War I. However, the gas bombings of the Kurds predated that; it occurred during the Iran-Iraq war.

84 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:37:02am

re: #81 Sharmuta

The response was to a post that we should wait until they explode a nuke and kill a couple of million people.

Don't start with Obama is a friend of Israel though. He's absolutely not.

85 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:37:33am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

I don't think we can get away with that. It would taint whatever new government is formed after the mullahs leave. Whatever is going on it has to at least appear to be a homegrown thing.

Exactly. That being said, there are ways to funnel weapons, information and other support to the dissidents we could support. Working with the Kurds seems a likely route, given their tribal ties in both Iraq and Iran. The problem there is that the Kurds might end up using the materials against the Turks as well.

86 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:37:42am

re: #77 Charles

It does seem to be reaching a tipping point in Iran - the protests are larger and more vehement. But I'm not too confident that we're at the tipping point just yet. The regime still has the means to put down these protests.

The revolution against the Shah built up over a couple of years, with protests very slowly gathering strength with each passing month. There's been a fair amount of speculation that we may be seeing this pattern again. They're nudging the boundaries, rather than ramming them.

87 Russkilitlover  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:38:00am

re: #81 Sharmuta

That's completely unfair, imo. Just yesterday, the President okayed missile defense that will include Israel.

Sea based defense. Very different and very much less effective without a land based system as well. Don't be fooled by the spin that Obama is providing effective missile defense.

88 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:38:27am
89 Baier  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:38:49am

I don't think any US president should be silent on issues like this. What rewards have we reaped by the current approach? A nuclear armed Iran. Revolution is an opportunity to safeguard a nuclear threat and pissing some people off is risk worth taking. The alternative is a military strike or (god help us) a counter strike. I don't see the people in Iran winning a revolution unassisted.

90 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:38:52am

re: #86 SixDegrees

The revolution against the Shah built up over a couple of years, with protests very slowly gathering strength with each passing month. There's been a fair amount of speculation that we may be seeing this pattern again. They're nudging the boundaries, rather than ramming them.

Apparently there is aspects of persian culture, specifically mourning periods that lead to this pattern.

91 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:38:54am

re: #80 KingKenrod

It's not true Bush did not try to help protesters, but his efforts were counter-productive. And Obama is continuing the same policy, slightly modified:

And that's what I said -- Obama's policy toward the protesters is no different than Bush's. The policy of funding dissident groups is just a political front, in my opinion -- it has little to no real effect.

92 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:39:14am

re: #39 taxfreekiller

WoW, look at those signs, must be some real right wing nuts involved in that protest march.

Better than the "commie enablers" here at LGF, eh bro?

93 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:39:24am

re: #77 Charles

It does seem to be reaching a tipping point in Iran - the protests are larger and more vehement. But I'm not too confident that we're at the tipping point just yet. The regime still has the means to put down these protests.

The question at this point seems to be if Israel does end up striking Iran, will the protestors use the event to push the regime or will they fall in line in national solidarity?

94 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:39:33am

re: #87 Russkilitlover

Sea based defense. Very different and very much less effective without a land based system as well. Don't be fooled by the spin that Obama is providing effective missile defense.

Less? The sea based component is more effective. The land based system was nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

95 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:39:43am

re: #87 Russkilitlover

I would think the Israelis would have the "land-based defense" part covered quite well. Not that they'd officially admit it, if you know what I mean.

96 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:40:02am
97 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:40:10am

re: #70 Spare O'Lake

I saw a clip of Ahmadinejad's speech which prompted the demonstrations, in which the little dictator blamed absolutely everything in the entire world on the Zionists.
Even by his standards, it was breathtaking.

He'll be repeating the charge at the UN, and he'll probably get applauded.
Spit.

98 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:40:29am

re: #77 Charles

It does seem to be reaching a tipping point in Iran - the protests are larger and more vehement. But I'm not too confident that we're at the tipping point just yet. The regime still has the means to put down these protests.

Could this be what is staying Isreals hand, on the assumption that if or when they strike the nuke facilities if will strengthen the hardliners?

99 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:40:54am

re: #81 Sharmuta

That's completely unfair, imo. Just yesterday, the President okayed missile defense that will include Israel.

Just to make a distinction here ...

The US has invested great deals of money and expertise into Israeli missile defense for the last 15 years. Patriots were depolyed there during the Gulf War. The Arrow system was jointly developed. Much more has been done that doesn't get announced or promoted.

So yesterdays news doesn't suddenly bring Israel under an umbrella that the prior 3 administrations were unwilling to provide.

100 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:41:12am

re: #94 McSpiff

Less? The sea based component is more effective. The land based system was nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Sea based is more effective? Like the Iranians couldn't take out a friggin frigate? They are much more capable of taking out a few ships at sea than taking out a land based system in Poland

101 Russkilitlover  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:41:21am

re: #94 McSpiff

Less? The sea based component is more effective. The land based system was nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Do you imagine that we keep the 6th fleet just floating around forever providing missile defense? It's nonsense. That's why the Russians were so wonky about the missile defense plan in Eastern Europe.

102 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:42:15am

re: #91 Charles

And that's what I said -- Obama's policy toward the protesters is no different than Bush's. The policy of funding dissident groups is just a political front, in my opinion -- it has little to no real effect.

It seems everyone is forgetting the number of Iranians who said it was best for the President to remain silent. That any statement from the US supporting the protests would undermine them- the people would think it was an American front.

I think that's terrible we can't have our government openly support them, but if it will cost the movement support to be seen as influenced by outsiders, then I think we should stay silent (officially).

103 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:42:15am
104 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:42:25am

Does anyone please have a link to Ahmadinejad's breathtakingly anti-Semitic speech which triggered the protests? I can't seem to locate it.

105 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:43:35am

re: #104 Spare O'Lake

There's an interview with him posted at the NYT link.

106 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:43:38am

re: #103 MikeySDCA

They have a spy satellite that covers their region.

Or were you expecting that the Navy will use their Cloaking Device? Or the Cone of Silence?

107 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:44:08am
108 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:44:31am
109 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:45:28am

re: #107 taxfreekiller

I saw a speech by Pres. B. Obama wherein he blamed every one and every thing excluding his Czars, his own inept policies, or the libleral Democrat led House and Sentate.

I would have like to have seen that speech. Too bad it was only given in your imagination.

110 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:45:49am

re: #101 Russkilitlover

Do you imagine that we keep the 6th fleet just floating around forever providing missile defense? It's nonsense. That's why the Russians were so wonky about the missile defense plan in Eastern Europe.

As I've said in the other thread, the Russians couldn't give two shits about the 'missile defence' system in Eastern Europe. Their short range, quasi-ballastic missiles would shred it in a mater of seconds. What they did care about, and what they did win, was removing large scale US military investment, in terms of capital, technology and man power. Poland and the Czech Republic are not afraid of Iranian missiles and they knew the system wouldn't do a thing to stop the russians. What it does accomplish for them is avoiding a situation like the one in Georgia.

As I said before, the "missile defence installation" for those countries was nothing more than a Human Shield. Which is essentially the same deal every other European member of Nato got, along with the capital and technology. So I cant really blame either country for wanting the same deal.

111 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:46:10am

A well known side benefit to the liberation of Iraq was the pressure it would put on Iran.

112 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:46:16am

Just had a "you're anti-Christian! I hate you Daddy!" flounce in the creationism thread.

113 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:46:18am

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Snide.

Well, the truth is that ships are very vulnerable in today's military confrontations if the opponent has a meaningful naval presence, which the Iranians do. Your point was incorrect.

114 vxbush  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:46:45am

Hmmm...

115 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:47:09am

re: #5 laZardo

To put the "Not Gaza, Not Lebanon, my life for Iran!" into context, it's "Quds Day" in Iran, basically their Palestinian Solidarity day.

This is not the only subversive chant being used in reply:

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

With both pro- and anti-government protesters taking to the streets, boisterous street-side political debates erupted, similar to those before Iran's June 12 elections.

In one location, an elderly man chanting, "Death to Israel," was shouted down by cries of "Oh, Hossein, Mir Hossein," in support of Mousavi.

On the west side of Enghelab Square, hundreds of government supporters chanting, "The blood in our veins is a gift to our leader," marched toward Azadi Square to force protesters to leave. The opposition protesters countered with, "The blood in our veins is a gift to our nation."

To chants of "Death to Israel," protesters called out, "Death to Russia," a strategic ally of Iran. Pro- and anti-government Iranians debated heatedly along sidewalks.

Young men and women wearing the green wristbands symbolic of the opposition movement continued to flood Tehran's subway station to get to the downtown location of the march and continued to head into the streets by late morning.

Amateur video posted to the Internet showed large crowds of people marching through the streets of Shiraz and rallying in Esfahan, where they chanted "Confessions, torture no longer have any effect on us," in reference to the televised trials of opposition supporters and allegations of abuse inside Iran's prisons.

116 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:47:36am

June 20, 2009 Thomas Friedman Article

"There is only one precedent for an oil-funded autocrat in the Middle East being toppled by a people’s revolution, not by a military coup, and that was in ... Iran."

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

117 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:47:45am

Jane's reporting on a successful Arrow intercept test by Israel this year -

[Link: www.janes.com...]

The Israeli Arrow (Chetz) Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile (ATBM) successfully intercepted a simulated Iranian Shahab-3 medium-range ballistic missile (IRBM) during a test-firing on 7 April.

This interception is the 17th test-intercept of the Arrow system, but it marks the first test interception by an upgraded Arrow 2.

After the launch of the target, it was acquired by the weapon system's fire-control radar (FCR), which sent its data to the battle management command-and-control (BMC) centre and fired the interceptor.

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:47:56am

re: #70 Spare O'Lake

He was just mistranslated!!!

(typical moonbat response)

119 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:48:43am

re: #51 Ziggy

Excellent point. I can't help but wonder, what if the citizens brought about a regime change in Iran? Would the administration and State Dept. recognize that new government as legitimate? They sure took the wrong side in Honduras when their supreme court LEGALLY ousted President Zalaya for violating their constitution.

My guess is that they would recognize it, or at least say nothing, thereby avoiding another Honduran own-goal.

120 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:48:51am
121 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:49:09am
122 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:49:39am

re: #120 MikeySDCA

Their naval presence is limited to their home waters and the western Indian Ocean. We can do just fine with ships in the Med.

Not with short range missiles. You can't hit Iran launches from the med with short range missiles.

123 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:50:00am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

Too true.

Let's hope it gets better, though.

124 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:50:03am

re: #111 experiencedtraveller

A well known side benefit to the liberation of Iraq was the pressure it would put on Iran.

How so? I thought Iran benefited from the Iraq War.

125 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:50:35am
126 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:50:37am

re: #122 Mikey_Dallas

Not with short range missiles. You can't hit Iran launches from the med with short range missiles.

But you can hit them from Poland?

127 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:50:47am

re: #115 Salamantis

Ooh, that's good.

The bigger they are though, the harder the hammer will fall.

128 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:51:00am
129 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:51:01am

re: #112 Charles

Just had a "you're anti-Christian! I hate you Daddy!" flounce in the creationism thread.

Wait -- you don't believe in creationism and think it shouldn't be taught in the schools science programs? I would have never known if it wasn't for that thread you posted last night. I'm shocked.

//

How the hell did he miss all the other creationism threads posted?

130 Mikey_Dallas  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:51:13am

re: #126 McSpiff

But you can hit them from Poland?

Those weren't short range missiles. That's the point.

131 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:51:59am

re: #125 taxfreekiller

"New Skin" covered by gauze.

Bob and weave.
Duck and cover.
Facts count up.

132 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:52:07am

re: #107 taxfreekiller

I saw a speech by Pres. B. Obama wherein he blamed every one and every thing excluding his Czars, his own inept policies, or the libleral Democrat led House and Sentate.

That's the speech I saw on TV on CNN this morning.
Now I can't find it.
Strange.

133 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:52:28am

re: #124 Flyers1974

How so? I thought Iran benefited from the Iraq War.

Iranian citizens are getting object lessons in what it is like to live in a truly democratic society from their neighbor Iraq. The lessons that they are learning there do not augur well for the continuation of the Iranian mullahcracy.

Just as Dubya envisioned.

134 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:52:35am

A summary of the collaboration of the US and Israel on the Arrow.

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]


The Arrow “anti­tactical ballistic missile” program is one of the centerpieces of the U.S.-Israel strategic relationship. It is one of the most advanced missile defense systems currently in existence. The Arrow will offer Israel an essential capability against Scud-type ballistic missiles, and provides the U.S. with key research and technology for other “theater missile defense” programs.

Given Israel's small size — the same as New Jersey — all ballistic missiles deployed by hostile Mideast powers represent a potential “strategic” threat to the existence of the Jewish state. Thus, Israel must have an “area” anti­ballistic missile defense network, based on a high-altitude interceptor like the Arrow, to provide overall protection for the country's whole population. Arrow's design is optimized for the specific requirements of Israel's operational environment.

It is a short hop to Israel from Iran, so a "theater area" defense system is what is needed and appropriate there.

The scrapped effort that the Bush admin had in mind for Eastern Europe was for long range defense.

135 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:53:07am

re: #124 Flyers1974

How so? I thought Iran benefited from the Iraq War.

Having a belligerent super power park its army on your border is never beneficial.

136 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:53:08am

re: #113 Mikey_Dallas

Well, the truth is that ships are very vulnerable in today's military confrontations if the opponent has a meaningful naval presence, which the Iranians do. Your point was incorrect.

Why are you assuming the system would be limited to the Persian Gulf?

137 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:53:10am

re: #109 Coracle

I would have like to have seen that speech. Too bad it was only given in your imagination.

I saw it on CNN this morning. Could they have speech-shopped it?

138 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:54:07am

re: #137 Spare O'Lake

I saw it on CNN this morning. Could they have speech-shopped it?

I'd like to see this blaming of "everything" on ...what exactly?

139 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:55:05am
Update %P% 8:25 a.m. According to the Iranian journalist Sepideh Farkhondeh, this video, uploaded on Friday to YouTube, shows a crowd in Tehran cheering for opposition leader Mehdi Karroubi, who was a candidate in the June 12 election and has publicly denounced the treatment of detained opposition supporters, saying that they were raped and tortured in prison. The crowd then boos Mr. Ahmadinejad and chants “Marg bar Diktator!” — “Death to the Dictator!”

If you had told me a year or two ago we'd be seeing this in Iran, I wouldn't have believed it. Just wonderful.

140 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:56:20am

re: #105 Sharmuta

There's an interview with him posted at the NYT link.

Thanks, but where the heck is the speech?
CNN showed a speech this morning on TV.
Something fishy here.

141 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:56:21am

re: #130 Mikey_Dallas

Those weren't short range missiles. That's the point.

I really suggest you read up on the systems involved. The RIM-161 is designed and tested for the short to medium range ballistic missile interception role. Its developed by the united states, and deployed by several nations. Its a first class weapon, ideally suited for the Iranian threat.

142 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:56:45am

Downding me all you like, Spare, but claiming the pres is "blaming everyone and everything" on the congress is hyperbole at the very least. downright falsification at the worst. That is why I'd like to see this speech.

143 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:56:50am
144 KingKenrod  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:57:56am

OT: Interesting short article on Islamic creationism

[Link: www.pri.org...]

145 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:58:18am

re: #142 Coracle

Downding me all you like, Spare, but claiming the pres is "blaming everyone and everything" on the congress is hyperbole at the very least. downright falsification at the worst. That is why I'd like to see this speech.

you're no fun

146 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:58:24am

re: #139 Sharmuta

If you had told me a year or two ago we'd be seeing this in Iran, I wouldn't have believed it. Just wonderful.

I'm not as surprised as you are, I've expected this to happen. Unfortunately, I also expect that eventually there will be a crackdown by the military. What would shock me would be if some element of the military actually took the side of the demonstrators. That's what's needed for true change in Iran.

Peaceful transition is nice, its extremely rare though. For it to happen (like it largely happened in eastern Europe) the Government needs to be worn down to the point that they give up. I see no signs of that in Iran.

147 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:58:33am

re: #119 John Neverbend

My guess is that they would recognize it, or at least say nothing, thereby avoiding another Honduran own-goal.


I hope your right. But would a new regime be any better?

148 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:58:42am

re: #133 Salamantis

Iranian citizens are getting object lessons in what it is like to live in a truly democratic society from their neighbor Iraq. The lessons that they are learning there do not augur well for the continuation of the Iranian mullahcracy.

Just as Dubya envisioned.

Is there any evidence for this cause and effect? Iranians tasted if not Democracy, some measure of freedom before the revolution. And I understand the demographics changed and the population is younger - but these young people have parents and older siblings, etc... . Its not the same situation as with a Soviet citizen in 1980.

149 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:59:09am

re: #143 taxfreekiller

careful you will flounce yourself

Thanks for your concern. I guess that means I'm not on your "commie enabler" list. A tremendous relief, I might add.

150 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 9:59:46am

re: #100 Mikey_Dallas

Sea based is more effective? Like the Iranians couldn't take out a friggin frigate? They are much more capable of taking out a few ships at sea than taking out a land based system in Poland

The AEGIS system does not utilize frigates but missile cruisers.

Nothing is stopping Poland from installing their own missile defense system. As it stands now they're still in line for US Patriot missile defense systems to be installed by 2011. Turkey is also in line to purchase the Patriot missile defense system.

There is no eminent threat from Russia to Poland. In fact Poland has 35 Russian built Mig-29s and 45 Su-22s. In addition to these Russian aircraft in their air force they have 48 Lockheed F-16s with another 48 due under US-Polish arms agreements. The US is still the largest arms exporter in the world.

The Patriot missile agreement with Poland include 196 Patriot missiles and 100 US Army personnel. This is still a contentious point for the Russian military and political establishment. The notion that we are abandoning Poland is a false assessment.

When you combine the Patriot missiles in Turkey, and Poland along side Israel and the planned US Navy AEGIS missile cruiser deployments it will provide a non-equaled defense in the greater geographic region.

151 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:00:05am

re: #145 albusteve

you're no fun

My day is not complete until I've ruined someone else's fun. Usually it's my children, but I'll take what I can get.

152 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:00:53am

re: #142 Coracle

Downding me all you like, Spare, but claiming the pres is "blaming everyone and everything" on the congress is hyperbole at the very least. downright falsification at the worst. That is why I'd like to see this speech.

Hold on, I screwed up. I misread tfk's post. The speech I saw this morning was not Obama, it was Ahmadinejad. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm still looking for Ahmadinejad's speech.
*sheepish*

153 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:01:40am

re: #148 Flyers1974

Is there any evidence for this cause and effect? Iranians tasted if not Democracy, some measure of freedom before the revolution. And I understand the demographics changed and the population is younger - but these young people have parents and older siblings, etc... . Its not the same situation as with a Soviet citizen in 1980.

Foreign exchange students and/or emmigration? Not sure that's enough in terms of critical mass maybe that was a starting place.

154 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:02:10am

re: #151 Coracle

My day is not complete until I've ruined someone else's fun. Usually it's my children, but I'll take what I can get.

you've not ruined mine or tfk's...

155 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:02:42am

re: #135 experiencedtraveller

Having a belligerent super power park its army on your border is never beneficial.

Agreed. But did anyone envision this situation lasting? And my opinion that Iran is/was confident that this military power would never be brought to bear no matter who is president.

156 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:02:44am

re: #154 albusteve

you've not ruined mine or tfk's...

Good thing I have my offspring for fallback.

157 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:03:59am

re: #142 Coracle

Downding me all you like, Spare, but claiming the pres is "blaming everyone and everything" on the congress is hyperbole at the very least. downright falsification at the worst. That is why I'd like to see this speech.

Just a second - while I understand your demand for specifics, allow me to point out that President Obama is the King of the Strawman.

One of his favorite phrases is "There are some who say" ...

Here is a google news search on that string of words from Obama.

[Link: news.google.com...]

Too bad google news doesn't go back further on these searches, but you can find plenty of examples from plenty of speeches where he uses those very words in that sequence to set up a strawman. Obama has no problem with conflating his opponents arguments, misrepresenting them and then arguing them down without providing specifics.

158 laZardo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:04:16am

Heading to bed. It's 1 AM and the 2nd half of my nationally-university-mandated Community Service class begins in 8 hours. It's the hands-on bit so hopefully I can finally see what community organizing is really like.

And speaking of which you have my sworn virtual word here that if a pimp asks me to funnel pornography money into their 2010 election campaign, I will firmly tell them to GTFO. Cheers.

159 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:04:38am
160 efuseakay  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:06:08am

200 Gazgooglebillionnn protesters!!! ;)

161 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:06:17am

Deep fissures will have to develop within the regime before it becomes weak enough to fall.

In my semi-ignorant opinion, the primary fissure will have to come "from Qom" (from the religion side). It'll have to be strong enough to throw the IRGC into disrepute, exacerbating another fissure inside the IRGC itself.

The Revolutionary Guard is the key. Some of its leaders have already been cashiered, for not wanting to suppress the post-election demonstrators. My guess is that simply put bailing wire across a still-existent fault-line.

We can always hope.

162 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:06:26am

re: #157 karmic_inquisitor

Just a second - while I understand your demand for specifics, allow me to point out that President Obama is the King of the Strawman.

One of his favorite phrases is "There are some who say" ...

Here is a google news search on that string of words from Obama.

[Link: news.google.com...]

Too bad google news doesn't go back further on these searches, but you can find plenty of examples from plenty of speeches where he uses those very words in that sequence to set up a strawman. Obama has no problem with conflating his opponents arguments, misrepresenting them and then arguing them down without providing specifics.

This makes him different from precisely no other politicians. And that was not the contention being made. There are some who say facts like that matter in a discussion.

163 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:07:07am

re: #157 karmic_inquisitor

...no problem with conflating his opponents arguments, misrepresenting them and then arguing them down without providing specifics.

Isn't this just standard political operating procedure? Not very hopey-and-changey and all that but it's not like we haven't seen it before, or won't see it again. Just sayin'.

164 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:07:12am

re: #150 Gus 802

Perfect summary. Cheers.

165 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:07:36am

re: #77 Charles

It does seem to be reaching a tipping point in Iran - the protests are larger and more vehement. But I'm not too confident that we're at the tipping point just yet. The regime still has the means to put down these protests.

Absolutely right.

The regime indeed can and will put this round of protests down, it'll be the next round, or the one after that. And when people continue to talk and simmer, each round of protests will feed on the clamp down from the last one. Historically, Iranians are patient with their revolutions. Remembe,r the Iranian Revolution in 79 actually started in Late 77. The protests simple ramped up, simmered, ramped up some more.

Let's see if we can be as patient as the Iranians and let them have their revolution at their own pace.

166 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:07:44am

bbl

167 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:08:56am
168 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:09:49am

re: #167 taxfreekiller

obsess much?

No. I actually enjoy exposing your evasions and hypocrisy.

169 MJ  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:10:16am

re: #157 karmic_inquisitor

Just a second - while I understand your demand for specifics, allow me to point out that President Obama is the King of the Strawman.

One of his favorite phrases is "There are some who say" ...

Here is a google news search on that string of words from Obama.

[Link: news.google.com...]

Too bad google news doesn't go back further on these searches, but you can find plenty of examples from plenty of speeches where he uses those very words in that sequence to set up a strawman. Obama has no problem with conflating his opponents arguments, misrepresenting them and then arguing them down without providing specifics.

You can do a google news archive search. Look on the left side of the page:
[Link: news.google.com...]

170 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:10:50am

re: #162 Coracle

This makes him different from precisely no other politicians. And that was not the contention being made. There are some who say facts like that matter in a discussion.

I did not claim otherwise.

What i am pointing out is that if you are interested in finding examples of Obama blaming a wide and unspecified swath of opponents for something, you can just re-run that query whenever you like. So I wonder why you are in pursuit of trying to nail someone down for saying a politician blamed a large swath of people for something vague when you just admitted that, like every other politician, Obama does it.

171 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:11:02am

re: #168 Coracle

No. I actually enjoy exposing your evasions and hypocrisy.

TFK can be accused of obscurity, but not of evasion.

172 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:11:04am

re: #164 McSpiff

Perfect summary. Cheers.

Thanks.

And that doesn't include the rest of the US Navy 5th and 6th Fleets, our regional land based defense installations, ICBM capability, NATO, etc.

173 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:11:25am

re: #168 Coracle

No. I actually enjoy exposing your evasions and hypocrisy.

hahaha!...you're not exposing anything noob, but your own mean spirit

174 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:12:04am
175 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:12:38am

re: #148 Flyers1974

Is there any evidence for this cause and effect? Iranians tasted if not Democracy, some measure of freedom before the revolution. And I understand the demographics changed and the population is younger - but these young people have parents and older siblings, etc... . Its not the same situation as with a Soviet citizen in 1980.

Actually, umm, no. The Iranian people were controlled by Reza Pahlavi and his brutal SAVAK before the Khomeini revolution. And the brief flowering of feedom in the transition was, sadly, short-lived.

176 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:12:49am

re: #172 Gus 802

Thanks.

And that doesn't include the rest of the US Navy 5th and 6th Fleets, our regional land based defense installations, ICBM capability, NATO, etc.

I think the NATO aspect is important to note. Many nations are interested in employing Aegis. This increases the forces and decreases US costs. Something that would never happen with the Polish/Czech system (other than the Patriots).

177 Flyovercountry  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:13:08am

Saying goodbye for a couple of days, I want to say La shana tovah to everyone. May you all have only good things written in your books for the upcoming year.

178 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:13:43am

re: #165 bloodstar

When their revolution happens, and I hope it does, it will be a vindication of the ne0-con theory of why it was wise to take out Saddam.

179 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:13:44am

re: #153 Leonidas Hoplite

Foreign exchange students and/or emmigration? Not sure that's enough in terms of critical mass maybe that was a starting place.

And I'm not saying the Iraq War had zero effect. However, I doubt that, but for the war, this wouldn't be happening. It may have accelerated the process. People were debating whether Iran could have a counter revolution before Bush even announced the idea of an Iraq War. A big reason for this debate was the nature of the Iranian people and that they knew some degree of freedom.

180 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:15:12am

re: #155 Flyers1974

Agreed. But did anyone envision this situation lasting? And my opinion that Iran is/was confident that this military power would never be brought to bear no matter who is president.

They are so dependent on the Shatt al arab waterway. Simply cutting that off would cause complete chaos in the interior.

181 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:15:14am
182 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:15:16am

re: #170 karmic_inquisitor

I did not claim otherwise.

What i am pointing out is that if you are interested in finding examples of Obama blaming a wide and unspecified swath of opponents for something, you can just re-run that query whenever you like. So I wonder why you are in pursuit of trying to nail someone down for saying a politician blamed a large swath of people for something vague when you just admitted that, like every other politician, Obama does it.

I called out uncited hyperbole because crap like that shouldn't go unchallenged by either side for either side. The fact that politicians in general and Obama in particular uses strawmen was not the bone of contention. It was a specific allegation used by someone who makes those kinds of broadside allegations quite often, and I wanted to call him on it. I tried to pin him down on facts because "facts count up," but got the same kinds of evasion he accuses his ideological opponents of all the time. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Getting others to defend this pattern is just gravy.

183 SFGoth  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:15:47am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

We've had presidents, but we haven't had a President in the White House since Reagan's last day. Actually, I'm not sure that the Iranian protesters would have wanted Bush's public support.

184 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:16:46am

re: #174 taxfreekiller

shall I export myself upon your demand?

I'd much rather you tell my who you think the "commie enablers" at LGF are.

185 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:17:03am

re: #176 McSpiff

I think the NATO aspect is important to note. Many nations are interested in employing Aegis. This increases the forces and decreases US costs. Something that would never happen with the Polish/Czech system (other than the Patriots).

Lockheed-Martin and Raytheon are happy about that. The missile defense installation that was scrapped started with talk begun in 2002. That would have been 8 years in 2010 and no dirt has ever been moved and never will at this point.

186 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #175 Salamantis

Actually, umm, no. The Iranian people were controlled by Reza Pahlavi and his brutal SAVAK before the Khomeini revolution. And the brief flowering of feedom in the transition was, sadly, short-lived.

I understand and agree. The regime tolerated no threats, whether violent or legitimate. I was referring to outside of the political realm, they had a degree of freedom. They could go to nightclubs for example. Which sounds ridiculous at first, but I wouldn't discount it - they can't do it now, at least openly.

187 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:20:09am
188 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:20:16am

OT: Good news for those of you in the NW Chicago Suburbs this afternoon. That armed fugutive apparently has been caught in West Chicago after a traffic accident.

189 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:21:10am

re: #187 taxfreekiller

Well, its not me, ask around I'm sure some will be clear about it.

Me, I am a pure conservative and have a huge dislike for commies ,
the likes of Van Jones and the mad dog Earth First kooks.

It is a free country and as of yet each one of us can have their own opinion as long as its legal.

Are you sure?

190 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:21:48am

re: #185 Gus 802

Lockheed-Martin and Raytheon are happy about that. The missile defense installation that was scrapped started with talk begun in 2002. That would have been 8 years in 2010 and no dirt has ever been moved and never will at this point.

They are indeed. I was working with Lockheed-Martin Canada on their frigate upgrade program. Was disappointed they chose not to go with Aegis, was hoping to get to take a look at it. (it was a co-op term, hopefully going back full time after school). Although I did get to work on their Operations Room Team Trainer which was a neat project. Sorry for going OT at the end ;-)

191 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:22:01am

OT - pretty funny SNL sketch about the Wilson outburst:

[Link: www.nbc.com...]

192 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:22:37am

re: #180 experiencedtraveller

They are so dependent on the Shatt al arab waterway. Simply cutting that off would cause complete chaos in the interior.

I didn't know that, but I'm not arguing effectivness or that it couldn't be done. I have no doubt that Iran's military would lose and in a fairly fast manner if we fought them. I'm talking more US domestic political realities as I see them.

193 Wendya  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:23:13am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

Bush never attempted to legitimize the ruling government.

194 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:24:31am

re: #188 Honorary Yooper

More on it:

Fugitive Captured After Escape, Crime Spree

Authorities have captured escaped prisoner Robert Maday in West Chicago, after he overpowered two law enforcement officers, carjacked two drivers and robbed the bank in his daylong crime spree.

The U.S. Marshal's office confirmed that Maday, 39, was captured in West Chicago. He had been involved in a car crash at Route 59 and James Avenue before he was captured.

It started in Rolling Meadows and went SW toward West Chicago. Thank goodness he's been caught.

195 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:25:09am

re: #178 Ojoe

When their revolution happens, and I hope it does, it will be a vindication of the ne0-con theory of why it was wise to take out Saddam.

Hey Ojoe, that's an interesting take, would you mind terribly explaining the reasoning a little further? I'm curious to see how you get from 'a' to 'b' (and I'm not disagreeing, just hadn't linked those two things together before).

196 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:25:11am

re: #187 taxfreekiller

Well, its not me, ask around I'm sure some will be clear about it.

Me, I am a pure conservative and have a huge dislike for commies ,
the likes of Van Jones and the mad dog Earth First kooks.

It is a free country and as of yet each one of us can have their own opinion as long as its legal.

Not according to Maxine Waters.

197 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:25:11am

re: #192 Flyers1974

I didn't know that, but I'm not arguing effectivness or that it couldn't be done. I have no doubt that Iran's military would lose and in a fairly fast manner if we fought them. I'm talking more US domestic political realities as I see them.

Iran's domestic military wouldn't be the biggest problem; that would be their proxy terror organizations Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, and their terrorist sleeper cells burrowed in world wide.

198 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:25:49am

re: #191 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - pretty funny SNL sketch about the Wilson outburst:

[Link: www.nbc.com...]

The Bachmann line's pretty hilarious.

199 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:26:17am

re: #187 taxfreekiller

That's all very touching. You are perfectly happy to claim that "commie tools do not change no matter how long and how up dinged by other commie enablers lies are."

Since up-dinging only happens here, I simply wanted to know who you were casting aspersions on. WHo you considered the "commie enablers" to be here. I don't challenge your right to think it or to say it. But I would like to know whether you're talking about real or imaginary commies. Just like I want to know if Obama's "blame everything" speech was real or imagined.

200 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:27:43am

re: #186 Flyers1974

I understand and agree. The regime tolerated no threats, whether violent or legitimate. I was referring to outside of the political realm, they had a degree of freedom. They could go to nightclubs for example. Which sounds ridiculous at first, but I wouldn't discount it - they can't do it now, at least openly.

Thats a very interesting point concerning the limits of soft power. The current argument that soft power (the promotion of basic western freedoms) to help undermine totalitarian rule is not holding up well against actual events.

In fact, it may be a bit counter-productive by offering a safety valve to power that they can manipulate.

Heck, we can't oust indicted politicians in New Jersey...

201 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:28:39am

re: #74 Charles

I understand that you really want to hate Obama for everything he does or doesn't do. But his policy toward the protestors is absolutely no different than Bush's.

I have no idea where you and Killgore get that.

I do not have ODS because I don't support a Democrat president.

I was more defending Bush than making a statement about Obama.

On the one hand the "They did or didn't do it too" argument is illigitimate, but used against Bush all the time.

202 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:29:32am
Update %P% 12:21 p.m. Iranian blogger Omid Habibinia writes on Twitter from Switzerland: “SMS network is disabled in Tehran, Internet Speed decreased near 0.” If this is a government effort to block citizen journalism, it would seems to be bolting the stable door a bit late: dozens of videos and photographs of today’s protests by opposition supporters have already been uploaded to the Web.

The Iranian blogger and opposition supporter Mojtaba Samienejad insists on Twitter that there were a million, not just tens of thousands, of protesters on the streets on Friday. From outside the country it is very difficult to gauge, but the video we’ve seen clearly contradicts the reports from Iran’s state media outlets which said that there were hundreds of thousands or millions of people demonstrating across Iran exclusively against Israel. Look closely at some of the video embedded below and you can see what look like officially printed signs saying “Down With Israel” in which the word Israel was crossed out and replaced with Russia — a country seen as a strong supporter of the current government.

Russia's chickens coming home to roost?

203 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:30:48am
204 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:30:55am

OT

Who can tax the sunrise

Pretty good if you haven't seen it.

205 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:31:09am

re: #201 Ben Hur

I have no idea where you and Killgore get that.

From a long history of comments in which you refuse to acknowledge anything positive about Barack Obama.

206 Wendya  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:32:25am

re: #193 Wendya

Bush never attempted to legitimize the ruling government.

And to add to this, Bush did come out in support of the protesters in June of 2003.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

207 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:33:41am

Afternoon all! OT, but probably important for folks to know about:

New Government Policy Imposes Strict Standards on Garage Sales Nationwide

The "Resale Round-up," launched by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, enforces new limits on lead in children's products and makes it illegal to sell any items that don't meet those limits or have been recalled for any other reason.

My wife runs the senior center here, and a big part of the budget comes from the retail shop. Not being aware of the implications of this reg could lead to a devastating loss of revenue if they inadvertently ended up with one of these pretty major fines!

BTW, I took a look at the CPSC web site (where you're supposed to go to find out what's been recalled) - and it's not easy to find stuff there if you have a list of products you want to check on before selling them in your garage sale.

208 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:34:05am

If the mullahs fall and a friendly pro western democratic government takes over in iran , it's gonna be damn hard for me to vote against Barack Obama in 2012.

209 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:34:47am

re: #202 Sharmuta

Russia's chickens coming home to roost?

*Down on knees, eyes squeezed shut, hands clasped hard*

Please! Oh, please! Let it be so!

210 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:35:09am

re: #206 Wendya

And to add to this, Bush did come out in support of the protesters in June of 2003.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

More of that left wing dribble...

211 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:35:21am

re: #205 Charles

From a long history of comments in which you refuse to acknowledge anything positive about Barack Obama.

I will gladly acknowledge the positive things Obama has done.

Patriot Act. Wire tapping, etc.

Though I will call him a hypocrite, because he was vocally against those things when done by the prior administration.

I have never criticized his attacks on terrorists around the world, yet, like I did when Bush was Pres, will criticize the double standard put forth when the Americans do it compared to when Israel does it.

THat was me yelling NO DOUBLE STANDARD on the national mall during the pro-ISrael demonstrations when Bush was in office.

212 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:35:36am
213 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:35:43am

re: #208 _RememberTonyC

Man, the mullahs falling would be sweet. I don't see it happening soon, though. Not without a bloody revolution.

214 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:02am

re: #197 Salamantis

Iran's domestic military wouldn't be the biggest problem; that would be their proxy terror organizations Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, and their terrorist sleeper cells burrowed in world wide.

Good point. And complete lack of support from China and Russia wouldn't help obviously. I'm curious what the Saudi's position would be regarding a theoretical attack on Iran either to help the protesters to overthrow or if Iran were a month away from having an operational nuke. Not that I'd value the Saudi government's s opinion because they are benevolent, but because I know they hate Iran and they know the region.

215 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:04am

re: #207 subsailor68

Now I'll never be able to sell my used cornballer. Maybe in Mexico.

216 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:14am

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

More of that left wing dribble...

Time for the "?!" button.

217 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:50am

I am not certain of this - but it is my hope, that we are seeing the fruits of some potent behind the scenes actions by the Whitehouse here.

We have an announcement on missile defense, not that it is scrapped, but focused on Iran.

We have reference that we are not trying to piss off the Russians but pointing this on Iran.

We have strong statements about Iran's nuclear program.

I am not clear that we are going to take military action, in fact I doubt it, but I would not be surprised if we are carefully laying groundwork to isolate Iran from the outside and pump up resistance from the inside.

218 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:52am

re: #212 MikeySDCA

And if it rains beer I'm going to makes a fortune in the bucket business.

put me down for a bucket :)

219 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:36:53am

re: #216 Dianna

Time for the "?!" button.

The "what" button?

220 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:37:39am

re: #206 Wendya

And to add to this, Bush did come out in support of the protesters in June of 2003.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Exactly what I posted up thread.

221 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:37:43am

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

222 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:25am

re: #217 LudwigVanQuixote

I am not certain of this - but it is my hope, that we are seeing the fruits of some potent behind the scenes actions by the Whitehouse here.

We have an announcement on missile defense, not that it is scrapped, but focused on Iran.

We have reference that we are not trying to piss off the Russians but pointing this on Iran.

We have strong statements about Iran's nuclear program.

I am not clear that we are going to take military action, in fact I doubt it, but I would not be surprised if we are carefully laying groundwork to isolate Iran from the outside and pump up resistance from the inside.

I think EVERY administration since Reagan has worked behind the scenes for regime change in Iran.

223 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:28am

re: #217 LudwigVanQuixote

I like that view, it's wonderfully optimistic.

However, I fear that the Russians will read it as, "Go ahead, take back your empire."

224 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:35am

re: #213 Coracle

Man, the mullahs falling would be sweet. I don't see it happening soon, though. Not without a bloody revolution.

as long as our country is on the right side of that battle, offering the opposition some covert and financial help, that will be a revolution that is a blessing to the world. but we absolutely need to be doing SOMETHING to help the anti-islamists.

225 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:38am

re: #211 Ben Hur

I will gladly acknowledge the positive things Obama has done.

Patriot Act. Wire tapping, etc.

Though I will call him a hypocrite, because he was vocally against those things when done by the prior administration.

I have never criticized his attacks on terrorists around the world, yet, like I did when Bush was Pres, will criticize the double standard put forth when the Americans do it compared to when Israel does it.

THat was me yelling NO DOUBLE STANDARD on the national mall during the pro-ISrael demonstrations when Bush was in office.

Many democrats campaigned against Obama in the primaries over his support for the PATRIOT act.

226 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:43am

re: #213 Coracle

Man, the mullahs falling would be sweet. I don't see it happening soon, though. Not without a bloody revolution.

Plenty of precedent for that...

227 Wendya  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:45am

re: #217 LudwigVanQuixote

I am not clear that we are going to take military action, in fact I doubt it, but I would not be surprised if we are carefully laying groundwork to isolate Iran from the outside and pump up resistance from the inside.


I can't imagine the US would take military action unless it were clear Iran was going to launch.

228 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:47am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

Sweet

229 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #222 Ben Hur

I think EVERY administration since Reagan has worked behind the scenes for regime change in Iran.

I think you are right. I pray that this bears some fruit.

230 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:39:02am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

Let's see if Barry Obama offers anything more support than he did last time, which was almost none.

Um, how much money do we give to Hamas ourselves? Hell, I'd guess me probably even give $$ to the "political" arm of Hezbollah or something.

What could Obama even say?

231 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:39:38am

There was an interesting article in reason a couple of years ago about the next possible Iranian revolution:

[Link: www.reason.com...]

232 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:39:47am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

My money's on 312 for the first comment that claims Charles is violating their freedom of speach.

233 Wendya  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:40:02am

re: #220 Ben Hur

Exactly what I posted up thread.

My apologies. I hadn't read down that far when I posted my follow up.

234 SFGoth  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:40:26am

re: #208 _RememberTonyC

If the mullahs fall and a friendly pro western democratic government takes over in iran , it's gonna be damn hard for me to vote against Barack Obama in 2012.

And if He has his way, it'll be hard for you to vote against him in 2016 too.

235 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:40:44am

Those jails in Iran must be pretty full already from the protests earlier this year. Hate to say it, but the next likely step the mullahs will take is to make dissidents 'dissappear' like Argentina did 25 years ago...

236 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:40:51am

re: #233 Wendya

My apologies. I hadn't read down that far when I posted my follow up.

DOn't apologize.

It was a GMTA moment.

237 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:41:23am

re: #226 experiencedtraveller

Plenty of precedent for that...

Yeah. Last time in Iran was the wrong direction. I like the idea of backdoor help (which I don't doubt is happening to some degree - if we know about it, after all, it wouldn't be back door). But it's one of those things I believe will have to come about largely from inside Iran itself. It would be something to find an anti-Russia pro-democracy Iran in a few years. But it could just be a dream.

238 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:41:33am

re: #229 LudwigVanQuixote

I think you are right. I pray that this bears some fruit.

There is no fruit in Iran.

239 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:41:46am

was yoke was yoke.

240 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:42:18am
241 SFGoth  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:42:37am

I'm just going to put this out there for public consumption. I fear what President Obama wants to do to this country, and I'm a dope-eating, trial-lawyering, gothic, agnostic, pro-choice, pro-gay marriage Jew. K? L'Shana Tova.

242 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:43:18am

re: #200 experiencedtraveller

Thats a very interesting point concerning the limits of soft power. The current argument that soft power (the promotion of basic western freedoms) to help undermine totalitarian rule is not holding up well against actual events.

In fact, it may be a bit counter-productive by offering a safety valve to power that they can manipulate.

Heck, we can't oust indicted politicians in New Jersey...

When you say saftey valve, you mean if a regime offers some freedoms (as opposed to say Sadaam's Iraq), the people are less likely to revolt?

243 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:43:25am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

Wonderful!

244 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:44:19am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

What's the point of downdinging threads?

This isn't Digg.

245 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:44:22am

re: #227 Wendya

I can't imagine the US would take military action unless it were clear Iran was going to launch.

You are likely correct. By then though, it would be too late. The question comes down to Russian missile defense installations and Israel more than anything I think if we are talking a strike.

However, I do not think that Israel alone has enough assets to completely uproot the program.

This is a very tricky situation.

The fact that the protesters are saying that they do not care about Gaza is a big deal. It almost seems an announcement that they do not want a war with Israel, and would pursue such policies if in power. However, I am not ready to get my hopes too far up on that front yet.

246 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:44:28am

re: #234 SFGoth

And if He has his way, it'll be hard for you to vote against him in 2016 too.

And also hard to vote for him...;~)

Constitutions, like facts, are stubborn things.

247 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:44:35am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

no more "instant karma?" yoko ono will not be pleased ...

248 drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:44:52am

re: #221 Charles

I don't use the dingers, haven't used them more than a handful of times all told, but is there anything in place to prevent dinging on threads/comments once they reach a certain age? Seems to me that if something hasn't been dinged within a few days of it's posting there's no point in letting folks go back and ding it.

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:45:16am

I like to say I'd be that brave.

(Sayeth the guy with the nic)

250 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:45:45am

re: #248 drogheda

I don't use the dingers, haven't used them more than a handful of times all told, but is there anything in place to prevent dinging on threads/comments once they reach a certain age? Seems to me that if something hasn't been dinged within a few days of it's posting there's no point in letting folks go back and ding it.

Yes, the rating buttons are disabled after 7 days, just like commenting is disabled after 7 days.

251 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:45:47am

re: #238 Ben Hur

There is no fruit in Iran.

There's low hanging fruit in Iran. They hang it whenever they find it.

252 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:45:48am

re: #238 Ben Hur

There is no fruit in Iran.

Ohhh G-d, I just got that... Thank you dinnerjacket...

253 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:46:04am

Cair still milking this incident...

CAIR: 'Flying While Muslim' Web Site Launched

254 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #227 Wendya

I can't imagine the US would take military action unless it were clear Iran was going to launch.

But any administration we've had since Reagan would still be standing around wringing their collective hands until the launch occurred.

255 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:46:29am
256 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:46:46am

re: #235 Fenway_Nation

Those jails in Iran must be pretty full already from the protests earlier this year. Hate to say it, but the next likely step the mullahs will take is to make dissidents 'dissappear' like Argentina did 25 years ago...

I agree with that remark, but I can't upding it.

257 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:46:49am

re: #207 subsailor68

Afternoon all! OT, but probably important for folks to know about:

New Government Policy Imposes Strict Standards on Garage Sales Nationwide

The "Resale Round-up," launched by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, enforces new limits on lead in children's products and makes it illegal to sell any items that don't meet those limits or have been recalled for any other reason.

My wife runs the senior center here, and a big part of the budget comes from the retail shop. Not being aware of the implications of this reg could lead to a devastating loss of revenue if they inadvertently ended up with one of these pretty major fines!

BTW, I took a look at the CPSC web site (where you're supposed to go to find out what's been recalled) - and it's not easy to find stuff there if you have a list of products you want to check on before selling them in your garage sale.

This whole thing makes me laugh. Yeah, it's gallows humor.

Like the federal government has the time or personnel to devote to regulating rummage sales...but those idiots in congress had to pass a bill, and (sorry to those who love the guy, but) idiot GW Bush had to sign it into law, so we poor innocent citizens could be protected from the horrors of garage sale merchandise.

258 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:47:20am

re: #221 Charles

Over and over, I see people going through the front page posts or the comments or the links, and down-rating people who say moderate things, or up-rating extreme comments. In many, if not most cases, the users who do this seem to be people who registered for no other reason than to try to promote extremism at LGF -- they never comment themselves, and never post links.

I'm tired of this kind of namby-pamby subversion, so instead of simply banning those people when I see them, I've just finished writing the code to block ratings from people who either have posted no comments, or who haven't posted anything in the last two months.

A lot easier than monitoring that shite "by hand", I'd think.

And I suspect you just got rid of "blueherron". Has he ever posted anything? He's always giving me unsolicited updings, but never has anything to say...

259 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:47:31am

re: #234 SFGoth

And if He has his way, it'll be hard for you to vote against him in 2016 too.

LOL

260 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:47:48am

re: #250 Charles

Yes, the rating buttons are disabled after 7 days, just like commenting is disabled after 7 days.

That limit doesn't apply to links. I just rated a link months old. Oversight or by design?

261 gregb  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:48:11am

re: #114 vxbush

Hmmm...

The floated that trial balloon last month with the "invite" to have Russia involved in the strategic planning in Afghanistan.

262 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:48:31am

re: #258 Cato the Elder

A lot easier than monitoring that shite "by hand", I'd think.

And I suspect you just got rid of "blueherron". Has he ever posted anything? He's always giving me unsolicited updings, but never has anything to say...

He updings me too, therefore I doubt he is an extremist.

263 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:48:46am

re: #255 MikeySDCA

Tell that to Hugo Chavez.

America ain't Venezuela. And never will be.

264 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:48:57am

re: #258 Cato the Elder

A lot easier than monitoring that shite "by hand", I'd think.

And I suspect you just got rid of "blueherron". Has he ever posted anything? He's always giving me unsolicited updings, but never has anything to say...

Yes- blueherron has posted before.

265 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:49:39am

A'jad gets heave-ho from Helmsley Hotel

The New York Helmsley Hotel last night abruptly canceled a long-planned banquet for next week after finding out that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was scheduled to attend and speak, The Post has learned.

Helmsley representatives told Ahmadinejad to beat it after being informed by the security group United Against Nuclear Iran that the Israel-hating, Holocaust-denying America basher was going to be in the house next Thursday.

Helmsley execs were unaware that Ahmadinejad -- who will be in town for a meeting of the UN General Assembly next week -- was involved in the event until informed by UANI yesterday.

266 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:50:20am

re: #238 Ben Hur

There is no fruit in Iran.

I finally got that after about 10 minutes.

267 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:51:03am
268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:51:14am

re: #266 Fenway_Nation

I only got it cause y'all explained it.

269 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:51:22am

re: #265 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

A'jad gets heave-ho from Helmsley Hotel

The only thing that might have been better could have been to wait until just a couple of days before arrival. Make it harder to find another place.

270 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:51:22am

re: #264 Sharmuta

Yes- blueherron has posted before.

Here's blueherron's last comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

271 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:52:05am

Maybe that'll coax some of these shy lurkers/hatchlings out of their shells.

272 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:52:05am

A little Leno Youtube ACORN humor break:

Youtube Video
273 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:53:14am

re: #182 Coracle

Getting others to defend this pattern is just gravy.

Thanks for characterizing what I posted as defending "hypocrisy".

Talk about misrepresenting your opponents.

274 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:54:08am
275 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:54:19am

re: #270 Lee Coller

How do you search for user comments?

276 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #273 karmic_inquisitor

Thanks for characterizing what I posted as defending "hypocrisy".

Talk about misrepresenting your opponents.

No. I just assumed you didn't realize that's what you were effectively doing. I don't hold it against you.

277 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:54:35am

re: #257 funky chicken

This whole thing makes me laugh. Yeah, it's gallows humor.

Like the federal government has the time or personnel to devote to regulating rummage sales...but those idiots in congress had to pass a bill, and (sorry to those who love the guy, but) idiot GW Bush had to sign it into law, so we poor innocent citizens could be protected from the horrors of garage sale merchandise.

Except that some organization like Nader's will go out and look until they find some recalled items for sale. Then, with the help of CSPC lawyers they will make somebody, or some charitable organization, into an example.

278 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:55:24am

re: #261 gregb

The floated that trial balloon last month with the "invite" to have Russia involved in the strategic planning in Afghanistan.

I'm all for handing Afghanistan to Putin tomorrow. Let him plan whatever he likes over there.

279 gregb  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:55:35am

re: #203 MikeySDCA

When has anyone ever had any reason to like Russia?

I took a facebook quiz on which country would hate me the most...you can guess who.

I don't even think it had anything to do with how much money I owe my Russian programmers.

280 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:55:48am

re: #275 Danny

How do you search for user comments?

Click the user's avatar, then click "recent comments"

281 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:55:49am

re: #250 Charles

Yes, the rating buttons are disabled after 7 days, just like commenting is disabled after 7 days.

re: #248 drogheda

To go further on it, there are people out there who use their sock puppets to down ding comments, links, and posts. They use these socks during those seven days while the comments are active to downding without commenting. In fact, there are several users downdinging posts and comments that I have never once seen post a single comment. Again, my best guess is that they are someone's socks.

282 Flyers1974  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:55:59am

re: #270 Lee Coller

Here's blueherron's last comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Who would have guessed that as anyone's last comment in the history of the internet. Certainly a useful and direct answer, though.

283 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:57:08am

re: #271 Dar ul Harb

Maybe that'll coax some of these shy lurkers/hatchlings out of their shells.

You'll see a few more sock puppets either banned for lack of commenting, or finally show their faces in public, and we'll finally find out who they really are.

284 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:57:23am

re: #263 Salamantis

America ain't Venezuela. And never will be.

Venezuela is quite different than it was before Chavez.

285 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:57:36am

re: #276 Coracle

No. I just assumed you didn't realize that's what you were effectively doing. I don't hold it against you.

That is big of you

286 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #274 MikeySDCA

Constitutions can be amended.

And do you realize just how fucking hard that is in the US?

[Link: americanhistory.about.com...]

Question: What methods are allowed for amending the Constitution?

Answer: To propose an amendment

1. 2/3 of both houses of Congress vote to propose and amendment

2. 2/3 of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention


To ratify an amendment

1. 3/4 of the state legislatures approve it

2. 3/4 of ratifying conventions in states approve it

287 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:57:43am

re: #277 Son of the Black Dog

Except that some organization like Nader's will go out and look until they find some recalled items for sale. Then, with the help of CSPC lawyers they will make somebody, or some charitable organization, into an example.

Exactly. Or just someone with an ax to grind. My wife and the volunteers at the center work incredible hours to raise funds to keep the services to seniors available in our town - including meals on wheels for folks for whom that's the only hot meal of the day. To put it mildly, I would be less than reasonable with someone who used this as a crusade and destroyed our center just to make a point.

288 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:58:04am
289 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:58:08am

re: #276 Coracle

You are aware that this is a variety of wanking, right? Claiming one has "proved" a generalization against a group of people in an argument on the internet is really rather useless.

290 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:58:25am
291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:58:50am

OT, but I won't be posting for a few days. I'll be back Monday.

It's the new year.

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank a lot of people here for teaching me quite a few things. I've learned a lot since I started reading here and I've made a lot of friends here that I really am enriched to have met if only virtually.

I wish everyone here great blessing in the new year.

I want to also thank Charles for being a very honest sort. It is an utter delight to see someone stand steadfast for sanity as others slip into darkness.

Every year at this time, I pray as hard as I can for America. Trying to keep her sane and without the stain of baseless fear and hatred is a wonderful thing. So I shall also pray that this little blog gets a double heap of blessings.

As to me... it is my fervent hope that everyday people, Jewish or not, take away the central message of the High holidays.

It is a simple message. It is that what you do matters. You were put here for a reason. You have great things to do. So do them, and do them with honor, kindness, wisdom and love.

Happy new year all lizards!

292 VioletTiger  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:59:29am

re: #244 Ben Hur

What's the point of downdinging threads?

This isn't Digg.


I've never understood that either.

293 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 10:59:51am

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Happy New Year, Ludwig! I'll miss you, but hope you have a great holiday.

294 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:04am
295 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:11am

re: #286 Salamantis

And do you realize just how fucking hard that is in the US?

[Link: americanhistory.about.com...]

Question: What methods are allowed for amending the Constitution?

Answer: To propose an amendment

1. 2/3 of both houses of Congress vote to propose and amendment

2. 2/3 of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention


To ratify an amendment

1. 3/4 of the state legislatures approve it

2. 3/4 of ratifying conventions in states approve it

It's very hard to do so, and has been done a grand total of 18 times in US history (the first 10, aka The Bill of Rights, was done as a unit, IIRC).

296 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:11am

re: #284 Son of the Black Dog

Venezuela is quite different than it was before Chavez.

Yeah, but it was never as resilient a constitutional democratic republic is the US is. Few countries are.

297 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:22am

re: #262 LudwigVanQuixote

He updings me too, therefore I doubt he is an extremist.

I'm not saying he's an extremist, though some would say updinging me means he's weird.

I'd just like to get to know him, is all.

Registered since: Jan 7, 2009 at 4:40 pm
No. of comments posted: 15
No. of links posted: 0

Last post August 29.

Come out and play, dude!

298 BignJames  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:29am

re: #278 funky chicken

I'm all for handing Afghanistan to Putin tomorrow. Let him plan whatever he likes over there.


I'm pretty sure they don't want it back.

299 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:00:55am

re: #289 Dianna

You are aware that this is a variety of wanking, right? Claiming one has "proved" a generalization against a group of people in an argument on the internet is really rather useless.

I quite agree. Which is why I don't claim to have proved a generalization.

300 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:01:09am

re: #286 Salamantis

And do you realize just how fucking hard that is in the US?

[Link: americanhistory.about.com...]

Question: What methods are allowed for amending the Constitution?

Answer: To propose an amendment

1. 2/3 of both houses of Congress vote to propose and amendment

2. 2/3 of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention

To ratify an amendment

1. 3/4 of the state legislatures approve it

2. 3/4 of ratifying conventions in states approve it

Which is a damned good thing. Otherwise the whole country would look like California.

301 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:01:09am

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Have a wonderful holiday Lud! Look forward to seeing you when you get back.

302 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:01:20am

re: #274 MikeySDCA

Constitutions can be amended.

Or modified by emanations and penumbras, or simply ignored.

303 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:02:04am
304 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:02:17am

re: #297 Cato the Elder

My understanding is he's a bit shy. I think he's trying to ease his way into commenting.

305 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:02:46am

re: #288 MikeySDCA

It is amazing that anyone would go to this kind of trouble, as if LGF were somehow part of the real world.

Be surprised. Some of the Deucers openly boast of having socks here, as did the GCPers before them. My best guess is that these are narcissistic individuals who feel that they need to be the center of attention, and that any slight, such as banning for being an asshole, is a slight against them personally. They also lie to themselves and cannot face the truth of what they have done. Which is why they blame some "change" in LGF for their banning instead of their attitude.

306 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:02:50am

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Cheers!

307 MJ  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:02:57am

re: #277 Son of the Black Dog

Except that some organization like Nader's will go out and look until they find some recalled items for sale. Then, with the help of CSPC lawyers they will make somebody, or some charitable organization, into an example.

Here's the Act:

[Link: www.cpsc.gov...]

Good luck selling or even donating any children's books printed before 1984.

308 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:03:41am
309 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:04:00am

re: #302 Son of the Black Dog

Or modified by emanations and penumbras, or simply ignored.

I don't think a third presidential term would qualify as something that could be facilitated by an emanation or penumbra - especially considering the fact that it is expressly forbidden by a constitutional amendment.

310 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:04:10am

re: #281 Honorary Yooper

All of this talk about "socks" reminds me of the scene from The Young Ones where one of Vivian's socks escapes.

311 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:04:58am

re: #294 MikeySDCA

L'shana tovah tikatevu.


Gemar Chatimah Tovah!

312 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:05:10am
313 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:05:52am

re: #301 subsailor68

Have a wonderful holiday Lud! Look forward to seeing you when you get back.

I look forward to seeing you too...

314 Ben Hur  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:10am

Happy and Healthy New Year to all!

May you have a year of health, happiness and success!

Shana Tova v'Metukah!

-Ben Hur

315 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:24am

re: #308 gmsc

gmsc
Karma: 11,677
Registered since: Jun 28, 2007 at 6:33 pm
No. of comments posted: 13,720
No. of links posted: 44

After 13,720 comments, you chose to do this? Not a shocker as I think I've seen your nic over at the Deuce.

316 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:30am

re: #308 gmsc

You get a gold star for politeness.

317 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:51am
318 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:51am

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Enjoy your holiday. Eat some apples and honey and drink some wine!

319 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:08:07am

re: #317 MikeySDCA

I'm not sure what's an emanation or a penumbra in constitutional law.

Not something that could directly countervail a constitutional amendment.

320 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:10:22am
321 SFGoth  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:11:09am

re: #246 Salamantis

And also hard to vote for him...;~)

Constitutions, like facts, are stubborn things.

And it's a Living Document too. "Living, loving, he's just Obama"

322 Syrah  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:13:03am

re: #317 MikeySDCA

I'm not sure what's an emanation or a penumbra in constitutional law.

It is a vibrating shadow . . . or something like that.

It is often used as a magic wand.

323 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:00am

re: #320 MikeySDCA

Perhaps unless it's related to the old maxim: A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.

There's no Supreme Court that has ever existed that could interpret this 1951 constitutional amendment:

1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President, when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.

to allow for an Obama third term.

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:30am

re: #318 Mad Al-Jaffee

Enjoy your holiday. Eat some apples and honey and drink some wine!

There is actually nothing better than warm fresh challah dipped in honey. Nothing at all.

It even beats bagels :)

325 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:15:21am

re: #321 SFGoth

And it's a Living Document too. "Living, loving, he's just Obama"

It lives, breathes and evolves through the amendment process. As the Founders and Framers intended.

326 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:16:12am

re: #319 Salamantis

Not something that could directly countervail a constitutional amendment.

No, but they can be used to greatly expand the power of the federal government, as has been done with the interstate commerce clause. Sometimes that's good, sometimes not.

327 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:18:21am

re: #326 Son of the Black Dog

No, but they can be used to greatly expand the power of the federal government, as has been done with the interstate commerce clause. Sometimes that's good, sometimes not.

But the issue specifically being addressed was the impossibility of Obama, or anyone else, serving more than two terms as US President under current constitutional law, and the massive difficulties involved in amending that guiding document.

328 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:18:40am

re: #315 Honorary Yooper

After 13,720 comments, you chose to do this? Not a shocker as I think I've seen your nic over at the Deuce.

Just a flounce - or something more vile?

329 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:20:25am

re: #328 LudwigVanQuixote

Not even a flounce, just a simple "please delete me."

330 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #328 LudwigVanQuixote

Just a flounce - or something more vile?

Hard to tell. Most comments asking for deletion usually wind up in the flouncer going to the Deuce. They made that choice well before they decided to flounce.

331 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:23:31am

Please delete me, let me go...
For I don't like here any more...
To stick around would be a sin...
Delete me, and let me lurk again...

/

332 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:24:39am

re: #323 Salamantis

There's no Supreme Court that has ever existed that could interpret this 1951 constitutional amendment:
...

to allow for an Obama third term.

I'm not arguing that Obama will try to make himself president-for-life.

What I'm saying is that the Constitution can be stretched by the Obama administration to intrude into ever more areas that should be left to individuals or to the states (and I'm no fan of "state's rights", BTW). For example, the addition of positive rights, such as every American has a right to health care. It may be admirable, but it isn't in the Constitution.

Not that the Constitution hasn't been stretched by almost every previous administration, but this time I think its worse.

333 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:26:07am

re: #327 Salamantis

But the issue specifically being addressed was the impossibility of Obama, or anyone else, serving more than two terms as US President under current constitutional law, and the massive difficulties involved in amending that guiding document.

OK, sorry, my bad. Not trying to get off the sub-thread topic.

334 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:33:39am

re: #332 Son of the Black Dog

I'm not arguing that Obama will try to make himself president-for-life.

What I'm saying is that the Constitution can be stretched by the Obama administration to intrude into ever more areas that should be left to individuals or to the states (and I'm no fan of "state's rights", BTW). For example, the addition of positive rights, such as every American has a right to health care. It may be admirable, but it isn't in the Constitution.

Not that the Constitution hasn't been stretched by almost every previous administration, but this time I think its worse.

But that is moving the goalposts. This particular exchange began with

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

and continued with:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

All having to do with the constitutional impossibility of Obama serving more than two terms under the constitution, and the massive difficulty of getting the constitution amended to allow it. It never was a discussion about health care.

335 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:34:37am

Sorry; posted my 334 before I saw your 333.

336 Earth56  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:32am

re: #7 Charles

George W. Bush offered exactly no support to Iranian protesters during his term, either.

Charles,

Maybe its just me but when did they have demonstrations like in the past 6 months and of this magnitude when Bush was in office ?

337 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:01:16pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

re: #306 Killgore Trout

Thanks!

338 gregb  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:02:12pm

re: #328 LudwigVanQuixote

Just a flounce - or something more vile?

I wonder if there's something called "Flounced survivors guilt." :-)

339 samsgran1948  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:15:10pm

re: #32 Pullus Iulius

Whenever I hear people whining because they think their rights are being denied by some piddling inconvenience, I think of demonstrations like this.

Whenever I hear the Gaza and West Bank Arabs whining about their treatment by the Israelis, I think of what the people of Tibet are enduring under the Chinese.

340 Fluffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:23:40pm

If the old palestinian smokescreen is starting to wear thin that is great news.

341 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:53:14pm

re: #340 Fluffster

If the old palestinian smokescreen is starting to wear thin that is great news.

Absolutely. It's wonderful news to see this many people in an Islamic country rebelling against that propaganda.

342 elclynn  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 8:18:03pm

I enjoy this site but feel somewhat intimidated. I'll just lurk until I get my bearings. I do enjoy reading the comments but do not give up or down dings. They're silly.

343 elclynn  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 8:21:20pm

re: #341 Charles

Absolutely. It's wonderful news to see this many people in an Islamic country rebelling against that propaganda.

"No to Gaza, no to Lebanon, we die for Iran". That is one powerful statement.


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