Texas School Board Trying to Rewrite US History

US News • Views: 6,165

The far right religious fanatics appointed by Texas Governor Rick Perry to the State Board of Education are at it again.

Led by David Barton of the extreme fundamentalist group Wallbuilders (who don’t believe in the separation of church and state), the three fanatics on the panel are trying to subvert the social studies curriculum to insert their fantasy-driven ideas about American history, and remove mentions of important minority figures like Thurgood Marshall and Cesar Chavez.

The Texas Freedom Network liveblogged the proceedings at yesterday’s hearing, and has a wrap-up here: Important Progress.

Today’s State Board of Education hearing on proposed new social studies standards for Texas public schools was long and often exhausting. (Scroll down to find our blog posts from the hearing.) But we noted some important progress for ensuring that our schoolchildren get an honest and sound education.

In particular, David Barton and Peter Marshall were in full retreat from their calls over the summer to remove Cesar Chavez and Thurgood Marshall from the social studies standards. When questioned today by state board members, the two claimed they had never really wanted to blacklist the two famous civil rights leaders. Oh no, they simply thought that Chavez and Marshall had been misplaced in the standards. By suggesting that discussion of Chavez be moved elsewhere, for example, Barton even claimed he was trying to make room for more minorities. Marshall protested that he had only wanted to make sure that the two were discussed in their proper context. …

But while we made some progress today on one front in the far-right’s curriculum “culture war,” the board’s far-right faction continued to pressure curriculum teams to rewrite the history of the relationship between religion and government in the United States. They insisted that the teams include standards suggesting that our nation and government were founded on conservative Christian biblical principles. Those efforts to distort history — and undermine important protections for religious freedom in our country — are likely to continue until the final vote on new curriculum standards in March.

Here’s a little more information about David Barton:

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters’ Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist “Christian Identity” theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the “true” chosen people of the Bible and charge that today’s Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James “Bo” Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another “Christian Identity” front group with ties to Peters.

Asked to explain these actions, Barton’s reply amounted to a not very creative “I didn’t know they were Nazis” dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, “At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was ‘part of the Nazi movement.’ He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs.” An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.

Here’s an article on Barton and his theocratic front group, the National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools: Historical Revisionism in the NCBCPS Curriculum.

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436 comments
1 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:03:23am

‘Social Studies’ is creationism in the History Department.

2 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:05:23am
But while we made some progress today on one front in the far-right’s curriculum “culture war,” the board’s far-right faction continued to pressure curriculum teams to rewrite the history of the relationship between religion and government in the United States. They insisted that the teams include standards suggesting that our nation and government were founded on conservative Christian biblical principles. Those efforts to distort history — and undermine important protections for religious freedom in our country — are likely to continue until the final vote on new curriculum standards in March.

This is simply unacceptable. We were founded as a nation fleeing religious persecutions. Our Founders knew this well, and making sure the American people were never subject to it again was of the greatest importance to them.

3 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:05:50am

Now there’s an intelligent comment.

“Social studies must be bad. Add three letters and you’ve got ‘socialism’. Eeevul.”

4 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:05:58am

Sounds like a lovely group of people. The cross burnings must be just grand.

5 BignJames  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:11am

Mullah wannabes.

6 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:06:11am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

I meant comment #1.

7 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:07:12am
In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters’ Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist “Christian Identity” theology.


Ugh.

8 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:08:05am

Oh, for pity’s sake. Marshall was a supreme court justice!

9 MJ  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:08:23am

So Texas Governor Rick Perry thinks it’s appropriate to have a member of the “Christan Identity Movement ( the “church of the Aryan Nations) to the State Board of Education?

10 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:08:41am

re: #1 experiencedtraveller

‘Social Studies’ is creationism in the History Department.

Social studies is supposed to cover government, history, and civics. Calling it creationism is just plain ignorant.

11 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:08:44am

And, Chavez helped improve the lives of migrant workers!

12 jaunte  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:09:08am

How many lies will David Barton tell before he notices it isn’t the way to lead people to his ‘Truth.’

13 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #9 MJ

So Texas Governor Rick Perry thinks it’s appropriate to have a member of the “Christan Identity Movement ( the “church of the Aryan Nations) to the State Board of Education?

If so, he’s off-base, and off his rocker. If Texas has a recall clause in their constitution, they should use it on this asshole.

OT: Watched a flounce in real time in the last thread.

14 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:10:06am

re: #9 MJ

Seems so. The Republican party just can’t become an American version of the BNP. It simply won’t work in this country.

15 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:10:32am
16 badger1970  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:10:55am

Pastor Pete, funny name for a bigot.

17 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:11:35am

re: #12 jaunte

How many lies will David Barton tell before he notices it isn’t the way to lead people to his ‘Truth.’

Here’s how many I think: ∞

To folks like Mr. Barton, no lie is too big to lead people to “Truth”.

18 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:11:52am

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.

-James Madison

19 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:12:21am

500 Quatloos on a meltdown before 177.

20 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:12:24am

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?

-James Madison

21 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:12:31am

How close is Christian Reconstructionism to Dominionism? Same thing?

22 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:12:59am

Rick Perry, like Glenn Beck, is a big fan of paleo-right racist crank Cleon Skousen.

23 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:13:11am

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

-James Madison

24 brennant  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:13:31am

What the hell is going on with our country?

25 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:13:37am

re: #19 ArchangelMichael

500 Quatloos on a meltdown before 177.

I’ll stick with my standard of between 50 and 100

26 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:13am

I have legalized robbery, called it belief
I have run with the money, I have hid like a thief
Re-written history with my armies of my crooks
Invented memories… I did burn all the books

-Dire Straits, “The Man’s too Strong”

(just somehow seems appropriate)

27 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:23am

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov’ & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov’ of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

-James Madison

28 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:35am

re: #24 brennant

What the hell is going on with our country?

We’re in an awkward phase right now. We’ll grow out of it.

29 badger1970  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:14:49am

re: #22 Charles

Rick Perry likes anything that gets him in the papers with his goofy grin and is political expedient. Former Dem. may I add.

30 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:15:02am

re: #21 MandyManners

How close is Christian Reconstructionism to Dominionism? Same thing?

Not entire sure how close one is to being the other, but it appears Dominionism is the parent of Reconstructionism.

From Wiki:

Dominionism
Reconstructionism

31 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:15:03am

An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against…Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance…religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government.

-James Madison

32 brennant  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:15:08am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

I hope so… I really really do.

33 MandyManners  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:15:57am

re: #30 Honorary Yooper

Not entire sure how close one is to being the other, but it appears Dominionism is the parent of Reconstructionism.

From Wiki:

Dominionism
Reconstructionism

The nut doesn’t fall far from the tree.

34 jaunte  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #22 Charles

Rick Perry, like Glenn Beck, is a big fan of paleo-right racist crank Cleon Skousen.


It’s shocking how many commenters at that link are defending the idea of secession.

35 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:16:21am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

We’re in an awkward phase right now. We’ll grow out of it.

I sure as hell hope so, Killgore, and I hope it is without too many growing pains.

36 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:16:25am
37 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:16:45am

We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, that religion, or the duty we owe our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right.

-James Madison

38 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:17:16am

re: #34 jaunte

It’s shocking how many commenters at that link are defending the idea of secession.

Don’t these idiots remember the smackdown that happened last time some idiots tried secession?

39 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:17:26am

I hope Kay Bailey Hutchison beats the heck out of Perry in the GOP primary.

Otherwise, I hope the Dems nominate somebody sane.

40 clgood  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:17:52am

This sounds pretty bad, but who can call Cesar Chavez an “important minority figure” or a “civil rights leader” with a straight face? The guy was just a garden variety commie union thug. If he was a “civil rights leader” then so is Fidel Castro.

And, yes, I still call that street in San Francisco “Army Street”.

41 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:18:16am
42 MJ  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:18:21am

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Seems so. The Republican party just can’t become an American version of the BNP. It simply won’t work in this country.

There is a direct relationship between the antisemitic and racist “British Israelism” and the Christan Identity movement. Many BNP members believe in British Israelism.

A variant of British Israelism formed the basis for a racialized theology and became known as Christian Identity, which has at its core the belief that non-Caucasian people do not have a soul and therefore cannot be saved.[21]


[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Also, see:

Blogger Edmund Standing has some interesting background on connections between the British National Party and extreme right-wing (in fact, wacko-wing) Christian groups, with insight into why the BNP and other Eurofascists claim to be pro-Israel: Gott mit uns: British fascists and ‘Christian’ racism.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

43 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:19:22am

re: #40 clgood

This sounds pretty bad, but who can call Cesar Chavez an “important minority figure” or a “civil rights leader” with a straight face? The guy was just a garden variety commie union thug. If he was a “civil rights leader” then so is Fidel Castro.

And, yes, I still call that street in San Francisco “Army Street”.

I bet you still call MLK Jr. Avenue whatever it was called before that, too.

44 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:19:53am

re: #36 MikeySDCA

These are the Founding Principles these men in Texas would rob the children of- these principles which still bring the oppressed to our shores every day.

I cannot think of a more un-American thing to do than to steal this revolutionary and forward vision of freedom for all from our our posterity. Because this is exactly what these people are trying to do.

45 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:20:35am

re: #19 ArchangelMichael

500 Quatloos on a meltdown before 177.

Can I have it in gold-plated latium?

46 wahabicorridor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:20:47am

re: #2 Sharmuta

So, Sharmuta, have you seen Peacekeeper around anywhere?

47 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:21:03am
48 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:21:16am

re: #20 Sharmuta

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?

-James Madison

Yup. You can bet the Islamic jihadists are taking careful note of this development and cheering it on. It makes it so much easier to begin establishing madrassas in the US, and to insert their own religious doctrine and history into the public school system nationwide once the precedent is established.

Not that it’s any less odious for a Christian religion to do so. Those who don’t see that have profound difficulties with what this nation stands for.

49 clgood  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:21:47am

re: #43 Cato the Elder

No, but many of us locals call it “Milky Way” for short. King was a genuinely important figure, and an actual civil rights leader.

50 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:22:27am

re: #39 funky chicken

I hope Kay Bailey Hutchison beats the heck out of Perry in the GOP primary.

Otherwise, I hope the Dems nominate somebody sane.

You know what? It’s gotten so bad I don’t really give a shit who wins, as long as Perry loses.

I want Rick Perry to fail.

51 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:22:42am

re: #46 wahabicorridor

So, Sharmuta, have you seen Peacekeeper around anywhere?

I saw Peacekeeper over at Babba’s site. Haven’t seen him(her?) here in quite a while.

52 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:22:45am

re: #47 MikeySDCA

I know. I get as worked up about the undermining of our Founders as scientists do concerning evolution. Did mean to make it sound as though I was being confrontational with you- I’m just passionate about the Founders. My apologies if you felt that was directed at you- I was trying to work off of what you’d said.

53 S'latch  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:23:49am

Even the name “National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools” is a nonstarter, in my opinion.

54 BignJames  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:24:05am

re: #13 Honorary Yooper

If so, he’s off-base, and off his rocker. If Texas has a recall clause in their constitution, they should use it on this asshole.

OT: Watched a flounce in real time in the last thread.


gmsc was quite a regular on the dead threads…what bit him?

55 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:25:09am

re: #54 BignJames

gmsc was quite a regular on the dead threads…what bit him?

No idea. He left a message asking for his account to be deleted, and that was it. I think we’ll find out more in the next week if we see gmsc on other sites.

56 patrickafir  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:25:10am

Currently on front page: “Right”–26 times, “Left”–2 times

The right wing is clearly the biggest menace to America at present.

57 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:25:36am

re: #42 MJ

Interesting.

58 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:25:50am

re: #6 Cato the Elder

I meant comment #1.

‘Social Studies’ dilutes the study of history like ‘creationism’ dilutes the study of religion.

I’ll draw you a map next time.

59 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:26:22am

re: #49 clgood

No, but many of us locals call it “Milky Way” for short. King was a genuinely important figure, and an actual civil rights leader.

And even if everything you said about Chavez were true, he remains a genuinely important figure, an actual civil rights leader, and a significant factor in American history. Trying to write him out of the curriculum is partisan, bigoted, and just plain silly.

Sick silly.

60 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:27:03am

re: #56 patrickafir

There’s a lot of ugliness bubbling up to the surface in today’s political environment.

61 Bob Dillon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:27:09am

These folks (and the right and left wingnuts) are never going to give up.

They understand the nibble principle - eating an elephant (one bite at a time) and thin slices of Bologna (no one notices a single slice - keep it up and you’ll have the whole thing) etc.

Blatant takeovers - ah I’m sick of the whole thing. Gotta get reenergized.

62 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:27:15am
63 patrickafir  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #60 Killgore Trout

I can’t argue with that!

64 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:06am

re: #56 patrickafir

Currently on front page: “Right”–26 times, “Left”–2 times

The right wing is clearly the biggest menace to America at present.

When they start ramming religion down children’s throats through the public schools and rewriting history to put a fundamentalist Christian spin on it, they sure as hell are.

We’re fighting a war against fuckers exactly like this to stop them from doing exactly the same thing in Afghanistan.

65 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:14am

re: #58 experiencedtraveller

‘Social Studies’ dilutes the study of history like ‘creationism’ dilutes the study of religion.

I’ll draw you a map next time.

No need. I can see the dark place your thinking leads from here. Why - sniff, sniff - I think I can even smell it. Sort of a fusty odor, like old brown shirts.

66 patrickafir  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:16am

re: #62 MikeySDCA

I was being sardonic. :-)

67 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:38am

Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it.

-James Madison

68 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:49am

re: #56 patrickafir

Currently on front page: “Right”–26 times, “Left”–2 times

The right wing is clearly the biggest menace to America at present.

Currently on the front page: “In” -more than 100 times, “out”-35 times.

Clearly, “in” is a bigger problem than “out.”

69 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #56 patrickafir

Currently on front page: “Right”–26 times, “Left”–2 times

The right wing is clearly the biggest menace to America at present.

1. Define “right”. Why do some think creationism should be a right-wing tennent, as if there should be a litmus test for it? According to some of the nuttier religious right folks, to espouse anything other than YEC is to be an atheistic liberal. Never mind that there are a number of us who would consider ourselves right of center and consider creationism to be idiotarianism.

2. Right now, the attacks are coming from the right. Should this change in the future, we’ll see them come from the left again. However, this does not excuse the attacks and the idiocy. Charles is right to point out the idiocy and call it for what it is.

3. Is this your website?

70 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:28:57am

This is nothing more than out and out evil. Rewriting history, to serve your own prejudices can only lead to an Orwellian state.

My Russian colleague once said “Being Russian historian is very exciting! Always new developments in field!”

The founders were very clear about why the Establishment clause was needed.

This is so insidious because it is easy to plant bite sized lies that fester into young minds, but it requires a lifetime of looking for truth and much hard work to get an education. However corny it is, I always think of Yoda’s with stories like these. The dark side is not stronger, but it is more active and the easier path.

If there were ever an argument for national standards that took power from local school boards to do crap like this, it would be in preventing this sort of garbage. Let the inertia of the middle keep history safe from the cretins on both sides.

71 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:29:12am

And people wonder why we are constantly having to hire immigrants to fill jobs that require advanced math, science and engineering degrees.

72 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:29:14am

One solution to all this nonsense would be a wall of separation between state and school.

73 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:29:34am

re: #58 experiencedtraveller

‘Social Studies’ dilutes the study of history like ‘creationism’ dilutes the study of religion.

A statement so full of wrongness it literally is brimming over in wrongabilty

74 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:30:08am

Does anyone know if the MSM is doing any reporting on this? As much as I despise the “liberal media” I’d appreciate it if they did their job and covered this one exposed this bunch.

I feel that most people right and left wouldn’t tolerate this if everyone knew what they’re up to.

75 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:30:11am

Heh, Rick Perry is kinda embarrassing, but heck, he doesn’t hold the power. Here’s the real power in Texas:

Lieutenant Governor

It’s always a good idea to keep an eye on the person holding that one.

;-)

76 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:30:25am

re: #66 patrickafir

I was being sardonic. :-)

Yeah, we got that. You think Charles ought to be focusing on Obama’s private army, or something.

The right is in full-on mental meltdown mode, and if somebody besides the usual suspects has the status to challenge it, it’s Charles.

77 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:30:37am

re: #68 Charles

Currently on the front page: “In” -more than 100 times, “out”-35 times.

Clearly, “in” is a bigger problem than “out.”

Charles, why are you so obsessed with the word “the”? Its all over the site.

/

78 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:31:15am

My mother (God rest her soul) taught me well when I was young by saying the following words:

Remember this, because the history books will lie about it or conveniently forget about it.

79 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:31:33am
80 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:32:02am

re: #40 clgood

This sounds pretty bad, but who can call Cesar Chavez an “important minority figure” or a “civil rights leader” with a straight face? The guy was just a garden variety commie union thug. If he was a “civil rights leader” then so is Fidel Castro.

And, yes, I still call that street in San Francisco “Army Street”.

A) Cesar Chavez wasn’t a thug — Jimmy Hoffa was a thug.

B) Cesar Chavez wasn’t a communist. In fact, Chavez sued Ricci Ware and Judd Ashmore for their calling him a communist on the air and won. A real communist would not sue for being called a communist. Chavez was born in the United States and died in the United States.

81 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:32:47am

As for the evil teaching of Social Studies

The year 1783 marked the end of the American Revolution and set this country on a path as the “United” States of America. The majority of Americans at this time were uneducated. The home, job, and church all played a greater role in education than did the schools (Barr, Barth, and Shermis 1977). The citizens of the United States would need, however, to be educated in the values and responsibilities necessary for national cohesion and survival. According to Cremin (1980),

The goal was nothing less than a new republican individual, of virtuous character, abiding patriotism, and prudent wisdom, fashioned by education into an independent yet loyal citizen. … Only as Americans could awaken and nurture a corresponding independence of manners and opinion would the Revolution be completed and a proper foundation for the Republic established. The task of erecting and maintaining that foundation became the task of American education. (5)

As this country began its experiment with self-government, the seeds for what we call “social studies” were planted to ensure the survival of the nation. Benjamin Franklin and other influential citizens saw the need for an educational system that would develop in students a sense of patriotism and nationalistic values. They encouraged instruction that would promote “moral training, training for citizenship, the judgement, and the imagination” (Hooper and Smith 1993, 14).

Some of the great minds of the early nineteenth century viewed the subjects that would become part of the “social studies” as a critical part of education. Thomas Jefferson’s thinking influenced educational thought for years. As Chairman of the Commissioners for the University of Virginia, Jefferson reported in 1818 that history and geography were important subjects for a primary education (Cremin 1980, 110). He also believed that these subjects, with political economy and the law of nature and nations, were essential to achieve the goal of a higher education. Benjamin Rush, another signatory of the Declaration of Independence, saw the need for education to develop good citizens. He thought young men and women should study history, geography, and political economy. And John Adams, when asked by Jefferson about subjects of practical value, included geography, history, and chronology as courses of “real value in human affairs” (Cremin 1980, 249).

SCARY!

82 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:32:57am

re: #69 Honorary Yooper

“YEC”?

83 patrickafir  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #64 SixDegrees

I agree; it’s indefensible. Regarding Afghanistan, though… shoot, I fear that our blood and treasure may be expended for naught by the look of things. We’ll have to wait and see, I guess.

84 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:34:11am

re: #70 LudwigVanQuixote

This is nothing more than out and out evil. Rewriting history, to serve your own prejudices can only lead to an Orwellian state.

Odd - I called it exactly the same thing on one of the threads downstairs this morning.

85 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:34:21am
86 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:34:48am

re: #82 SixDegrees

“YEC”?

Young Earth Creationism. The 6,000 year old earth that is promoted by the Discovery Institute and other various creation research “institutes”.

87 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:34:57am

re: #83 patrickafir

I agree; it’s indefensible. Regarding Afghanistan, though… shoot, I fear that our blood and treasure may be expended for naught by the look of things. We’ll have to wait and see, I guess.

There’s a shock. Alexander the Great, the Brits, the Soviets could all do it…what’s wrong with us?

That’s sarcasm, son.

88 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:35:00am

re: #72 Son of the Black Dog

One solution to all this nonsense would be a wall of separation between state and school.

I have to disagree. Public schools help the country in that an educated population benefits us all. If the government doesn’t provide these schools, many areas might not provide them at all. There are certainly areas in education where we could argue improvements are needed- no doubt about that. But to have the states defund the schools completely would be a disaster, imo.

89 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:35:17am

As a protest to ignorance, here is something I wrote to a friend who asked me about string theory.

Fight stupid with smart :)

To explain the basic idea of string theory I have to start with field theory.

There is this thing called quantum field theory. :)

A field is a mathematical expression that represents a map of what is going on in a space. In less technical terms… it is a set of equations defined over some region. If I plug in the coordinates of where I am looking in that region, I get told what is happening at that point.

For example, we talk about the gravitational field. At any point on the earth, I can imagine a little arrow telling me how strong gravity is, and in what direction it points. Gravity is a vector field. What it tells me are gravitational vectors at each point in space.

Temperature is another field. It is a scalar field. Temperature is just a number. I could imagine complicated equations that told me the temperature in a room - say warmer near the light and colder near the floor.

Now a quantum field is something that tells me the probability of a particle being created, annihilated or interacting at each point in 4-D spacetime.

Every particle has a field associated with it and the fields interact with each other. So, for example, there is an electron field and a photon field and the quantum field theory that talks about all the ways that electrons and photons interact is called Quantum Electrodynamics or QED.

In field theory all the known forces and all of the particles are accounted for by these interactions - except gravity. The picture on the very tiny scale is of a universe bubbling up particles that wink in and out of existence. Some of those particles make up matter as we know it, others carry the forces.

We can write a field theory for each of the known forces except gravity. This is because of certain deep mathematical problems which I won’t go into here. But the short form is that Gravity is described by GR quite well, and if you try to mix GR with quantum theory, you get nonsense that blows up mathematically.

Since we are really sure that both GR and QFTs are true, we assume that there is a larger mathematical framework that can account for both of them.

Enter string theory. String theory has the notion that the fundamental objects in the universe are not quantum fields, but rather extended objects called strings. The strings are the origin of the fields. The strings vibrate and depending on which mode they are vibrating in, depends on what field they create. Think different notes on a guitar.

We like string theory because we know that any quantum field theory of gravity would have to produce a certain special type of field called a spin two tensor field (whatever that it is, just mathematical details for this discussion) and string theories easily create such fields.

So there is great hope that strings will unify gravity with the other forces and create a unified theory.

That is the idea in a nutshell.

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:36:02am

re: #84 SixDegrees

Odd - I called it exactly the same thing on one of the threads downstairs this morning.

Great minds?

91 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:36:10am

re: #86 Honorary Yooper

Young Earth Creationism. The 6,000 year old earth that is promoted by the Discovery Institute and other various creation research “institutes”.

Got it. I’ve never seen the acronym used.

92 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:36:56am

re: #91 SixDegrees

Got it. I’ve never seen the acronym used.

Fair enough. I used to be very active on talk.origins at one point, and it’s a common acronym there.

93 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:38:03am

re: #80 Gus 802

A) Cesar Chavez wasn’t a thug — Jimmy Hoffa was a thug.

B) Cesar Chavez wasn’t a communist. In fact, Chavez sued Ricci Ware and Judd Ashmore for their calling him a communist on the air and won. A real communist would not sue for being called a communist. Chavez was born in the United States and died in the United States.

Hi Gus! Nope, Chavez was neither a thug nor a communist. He did, however, make life tough for us. Admiral Rickover always rode new construction subs on first sea trials. He was a bit eccentric to say the least. We had to provide a set of khakis (from a chief closest to his size), a selection of paperback books, a supply of S.S. Pierce lemon drops, and a supply of seedless grapes.

No problem with any of…oops!…Mr. Chavez had called an ag strike…where the heck can we get the grapes?? OMG, the admiral will kill us!

Finally found some, but it was a close thing. Other than that, I never had a problem with Mr. Chavez.

:-)

94 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:39:50am

I hesitate to say this, because I don’t believe in rewriting history or teaching creationism in school, but there is no separation of church and state. Regarding religion, article one states “Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I’m not trying to distract from the issue, just trying to not rewrite our constitution either.

95 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:39:53am

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Great minds?

I believe you and I are at different political poles. But we certainly agree in this case.

I have fought these assholes for years, and I am appalled to see them in the ascendancy once again. If they try this shit in any school districts near me, or in my state, it is one of the few issues I am willing to go to jail over if I have to in order to keep the bastards from preaching to my kids and everyone elses through the public school system.

96 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:40:52am

re: #94 Ziggy

I hesitate to say this, because I don’t believe in rewriting history or teaching creationism in school, but there is no separation of church and state. Regarding religion, article one states “Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I’m not trying to distract from the issue, just trying to not rewrite our constitution either.

Go ram it up your excessively tight ass. And then go read some actual history, moron.

97 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #96 SixDegrees

Go ram it up your excessively tight ass. And then go read some actual history, moron.

Wow, such hostility, I was reading from the US Constitution.

98 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:41:53am

re: #94 Ziggy

I hesitate to say this, because I don’t believe in rewriting history or teaching creationism in school, but there is no separation of church and state. Regarding religion, article one states “Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I’m not trying to distract from the issue, just trying to not rewrite our constitution either.

This is completely false. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment has been tested in the Supreme Court many times, and it definitely DOES mandate the separation of church and state.

99 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:41:54am

re: #94 Ziggy

Have you not read any of the Madison quotes I’ve provided? How can you possibly say there isn’t a separation?!

100 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:42:41am
101 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #99 Sharmuta

Have you not read any of the Madison quotes I’ve provided? How can you possibly say there isn’t a separation?!

Because his church has busily been rewriting history for him.

102 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:42:56am

re: #93 subsailor68

Hi Gus! Nope, Chavez was neither a thug nor a communist. He did, however, make life tough for us. Admiral Rickover always rode new construction subs on first sea trials. He was a bit eccentric to say the least. We had to provide a set of khakis (from a chief closest to his size), a selection of paperback books, a supply of S.S. Pierce lemon drops, and a supply of seedless grapes.

No problem with any of…oops!…Mr. Chavez had called an ag strike…where the heck can we get the grapes?? OMG, the admiral will kill us!

Finally found some, but it was a close thing. Other than that, I never had a problem with Mr. Chavez.

:-)

During a “phase” in my life I was boycotting grapes. It wasn’t very conscious on my part nor did I have any activist feelings. Maybe it was my then girlfriend that influenced that or a feeling of pity the workers affected. Finally when the boycott was “lifted” boy did grapes taste good. Don’t really buy them now since they’re both expensive and I tend to let the fruit that I buy go bad.

103 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:11am

re: #99 Sharmuta

Have you not read any of the Madison quotes I’ve provided? How can you possibly say there isn’t a separation?!

I was just about to post pointing him to your #18 and #20 up at the top of the thread but I’ve been beated to the punch.

104 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #99 Sharmuta

Have you not read any of the Madison quotes I’ve provided? How can you possibly say there isn’t a separation?!

I haven’t read any, if you would like to repost, I would love to. I knew I would piss a bunch of people off with that one, but it was not my intention.

105 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:15am

Saw that one coming.

106 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #94 Ziggy

I hesitate to say this, because I don’t believe in rewriting history or teaching creationism in school, but there is no separation of church and state. Regarding religion, article one states “Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I’m not trying to distract from the issue, just trying to not rewrite our constitution either.

The implication is that the State will not impose any religious standard on any state function read the whole amendment. Freedom of religion also very clearly means freedom from religion.

107 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:58am

re: #100 patrickafir

Another denizen of a world with only two states.

108 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:43:59am

re: #97 Ziggy

Wow, such hostility, I was reading from the US Constitution.

Schools receive money from the state, therefore any religion taught at the school could be said to be state sponsored, which is why creationism has morphed into ID instead. If you want ID or creationism, go to a private school.

109 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:44:16am
110 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:44:22am

re: #97 Ziggy

“Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it.”

This is from James Madison, Father of the Constitution, and you’re going to try to paint the First Amendment as not separating government from religion? It’s utter hogwash.

111 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:44:55am

re: #94 Ziggy

There is separation of church and state. The line is getty significantly blurrier over time, in my opinion.

112 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:44:57am
113 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:45:05am

Woot, 100 on the nail!

What did I win?

114 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:45:07am

re: #94 Ziggy

Whether you like it or not, the Constitution says what the Supreme Court wants it to say. The separation of church and state has been held true in every Supreme Court case challenging it.

115 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:45:17am

re: #104 Ziggy

Start at the top of the thread and read down.

116 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:07am

Again and again, the long flounce-off comment full of insults.

117 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:17am

Oh for f*ck’s sake- defending the Constitution is causing flounces.

Unbelievable.

118 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:21am

re: #97 Ziggy

Wow, such hostility, I was reading from the US Constitution.

Establishment Clause:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

It has been interpreted by many since the Federalist Papers (including James Madison who wrote a fair number of them) to mean that there should be a separation of church and state. The Framers intended it to be a barrier.

119 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:40am

re: #98 Charles

This is completely false. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment has been tested in the Supreme Court many times, and it definitely DOES mandate the separation of church and state.

I will certainly read up on that, but I do you agree with every supreme court position? Please remember, I would go ape shit if they tried to teach my kids religion or creationism or ID in school, but I also think it’s entirely appropriate to have the Ten Commandments in a court room and Christmas songs at the “holiday” concerts at school.

120 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:43am

LOL. These flounces are going to have to get shorter if they actually want anyone to read them.

They need to resort to flouncebites

121 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #116 Charles

If these are Christian Nation meme people- good riddance.

122 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #113 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Woot, 100 on the nail!

What did I win?

I said before 177, so I win too, but you were closer so you should get more than 500 quatloos.

123 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:09am
124 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:23am

re: #119 Ziggy

You’re not going to start at the top of the thread and read, are you?

125 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:34am

re: #113 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Woot, 100 on the nail!

What did I win?

Anything between the chicklets and the erasers, but not the pencil shearpeners, anything in this 3 inches.

126 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:41am

re: #122 ArchangelMichael

I said before 177, so I win too, but you were closer so you should get more than 500 quatloos.

I’m gracious in my victory, so lets say a 70/30 split

127 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:47:58am

re: #108 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Schools receive money from the state, therefore any religion taught at the school could be said to be state sponsored, which is why creationism has morphed into ID instead. If you want ID or creationism, go to a private school.

Exactly correct. creationists have issues with evolution, but for them it is simply a lever that allows them to pry open a back door into the schools so they can teach their own particular brand of fucked-up Christianity to everyone’s children with the power of the state backing them up and making such indoctrination mandatory. From there, the plan is to move on to other topics and replace them with fundamentalist doctrine. In short, the goal is to turn the public school system into a taxpayer-funded, nationwide system of perverted Christian madrassas.

128 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:18am

re: #125 Mad Al-Jaffee

Anything between the chicklets and the erasers, but not the pencil shearpeners, anything in this 3 inches.

How about a pizza in a cup?

129 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:23am

re: #116 Charles

Again and again, the long flounce-off comment full of insults.

“…I would consider it a personal favor if you would ban me from commenting on this site.”

That’s a flouncee request I don’t remember seeing before.

130 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:24am
131 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:28am

re: #105 Charles

Saw that one coming.

Sigh! Flouncers remind me of that old saw “But enough about myself, tell me what you think of me.” Maybe wee can just have a standard song they can all sing - to save time:

“Please delete me, let me go,
For I won’t post here anymore,
To add a post would be a sin,
Delete me, I won’t be back again.”

;-)

132 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:37am

re: #126 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’m gracious in my victory, so lets say a 70/30 split

Deal.

133 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:39am

re: #124 Sharmuta

You’re not going to start at the top of the thread and read, are you?

Of course not. That would take some common sense and be way too easy.

134 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:51am

re: #88 Sharmuta

I have to disagree. Public schools help the country in that an educated population benefits us all. If the government doesn’t provide these schools, many areas might not provide them at all. There are certainly areas in education where we could argue improvements are needed- no doubt about that. But to have the states defund the schools completely would be a disaster, imo.

We would have a better educated population if the government (at any level) didn’t control the education system. I’d opt for a voucher system, placing the control of where the money goes in the hands of the parents. If some choose to send their children to a school that promotes YEC (for example) then their children will be at a substantial disadvantage once they get to college.

My personal preference is for non-sectarian schools with parent and interested community boards.

135 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:48:56am

re: #128 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How about a pizza in a cup?

Or a new thermos.

136 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:06am

Speaking as I am about Chavez that reminds me of something. It’s a bit plagiarized but just because I comment on someone like him or defend him doesn’t mean I worship him. It was from a blog post and the line read: just because I study the devil doesn’t mean I worship him. In this case Chavez of course is not a devil. The way to put it would be: just because I study something doesn’t mean I worship it. Or just because I defend something doesn’t mean I worship it.

137 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:06am

re: #123 MikeySDCA

Or just click on Sharmuta’s icon and go to “Recent posts.”

I’m not spoon feeding this one. I posted numerous quotes showing the intent of the main author of the Constitution- and I did it for a reason. I’m not spamming the thread twice with them.

138 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:25am

re: #120 Radicchio ad Absurdum

LOL. These flounces are going to have to get shorter if they actually want anyone to read them.

They need to resort to flouncebites

How about flitter? Where a person intending to flounce is limited to using no more than 140 characters for their final dramatic exit

139 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:33am

re: #133 Honorary Yooper

Of course not. That would take some common sense and be way too easy.

Scrolling up and reading is teh hard.

140 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:37am

The amazing thing is that I were to open registration, about 50% of the flouncers would immediately try to register with a new name, just so they can flounce again.

141 sffilk  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:49:49am

This whole thing is sickening.

142 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:50:09am

re: #94 Ziggy

I hesitate to say this, because I don’t believe in rewriting history or teaching creationism in school, but there is no separation of church and state. Regarding religion, article one states “Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” I’m not trying to distract from the issue, just trying to not rewrite our constitution either.

There’s also no “Right to Privacy” spelled out in the constitution. Yet I bet you won’t find anyone who believes that the constitution does not guarantee a right to privacy. And the construct for that is much more vague than the line of separation. “No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States” Doesn’t that make it pretty clear?

143 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:51:29am

The only reason I would ever request a banishment would be if my sheer awesomeness consumed any more bandwidth than it already does. Expensive stuff.

144 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:51:46am

re: #138 Drogheda

How about flitter? Where a person intending to flounce is limited to using no more than 140 characters for their final dramatic exit

Works. So too does Twitter, because these folks frankly are… twits.

145 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:04am

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

Establishment Clause:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

It has been interpreted by many since the Federalist Papers (including James Madison who wrote a fair number of them) to mean that there should be a separation of church and state. The Framers intended it to be a barrier.

The phrase “separation of church and state” itself traced to Thomas Jefferson, in a letter written explicitly in explanation of the First Amendment.

Claiming this is not in the Constitution is fundamentalist drivel.

146 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:14am

re: #119 Ziggy

I also think it’s entirely appropriate to have the Ten Commandments in a court room.

Really? Should they also allow the Bhagavad-Gita and the creation myths of the Navajo tribe in the courtroom? Where do you draw the line?

Or is only Christianity supposed to be allowed in the courtroom?

147 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:15am

re: #140 Charles

Maybe flouncing indues a narcotic-like sensation.

148 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:23am

re: #124 Sharmuta

You’re not going to start at the top of the thread and read, are you?


I am, but I’m also trying to read every post that wants to cut my balls off here. Wow, I knew it would set people off, but I had no idea how badly. It’s kind of ironic, because I agree with all of you about religion in schools.

149 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:24am

re: #140 Charles

The amazing thing is that I were to open registration, about 50% of the flouncers would immediately try to register with a new name, just so they can flounce again.

As said yesterday, it’s a strange psychological sickness they have. Some of them get high on flouncing and then boasting about it. When the affects wear off, they feel the need to flounce again. It’s like a drug.

150 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:33am

re: #140 Charles

The amazing thing is that I were to open registration, about 50% of the flouncers would immediately try to register with a new name, just so they can flounce again.

Of course they would…They apparently have no other life than to sit here and seethe at how commie they think we are for defending actual American values, like say THE CONSTITUTION for crying out loud, for days on end until they can then dramatically tell us how much they hate being here.

Again and again.

If a normal person didn’t like what was written here, they might, ohhh, I don’t know, go elsewhere?

151 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:52:36am

Not sure if this is newly released or not…
Cast Lead Video: Civilians Flee Hamas Terrorist as He Attempts to Use Them as Human Shields

In this IAF aerial footage taken during the Cast Lead Operation in January 2009, a Hamas terrorist repeatedly attempts to use innocent bystanders including children as human shields. The terrorist approaches a group of three children who run away from him and you can hear the operator call off the strikes, then the terrorist lies on the ground feigning an injury. Afterward the terrorist walks into More.. a civilian compound and approaches a man who pushes him away, he then enters a civilian building.

152 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:09am

re: #146 Charles

Really? Should they also the Bhagavad-Gita and the creation myths of the Navajo tribe in the courtroom? Where do you draw the line?

Or is only Christianity supposed to be allowed in the courtroom?

Can we get the stone tablets inscribed with the rites of Cthulhu on them as well?

153 Pianobuff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:31am

re: #140 Charles

The amazing thing is that I were to open registration, about 50% of the flouncers would immediately try to register with a new name, just so they can flounce again.

GDS - Groundhog Day Syndrome

154 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:41am

re: #147 Danny

Maybe flouncing indues a narcotic-like sensation.

That’s my theory on it. It’s like a drug to some of the flouncers.

155 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:42am
156 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:53:52am

re: #143 Equable

The only reason I would ever request a banishment would be if my sheer awesomeness consumed any more bandwidth than it already does. Expensive stuff.

I’m sorry I can hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

157 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:54:26am

re: #146 Charles

Really? Should they also the Bhagavad-Gita and the creation myths of the Navajo tribe in the courtroom? Where do you draw the line?

Or is only Christianity supposed to be allowed in the courtroom?


I suppose if our justice system were founded on Navajo principles I wouldn’t mind. I’m beginning to be really sorry I started.

158 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:54:36am

Shocker of the day…

Israeli-Palestinian peace talk deal eludes Obama envoy

George J. Mitchell leaves the Middle East after six days of talks failed to bridge the gaps over issues including Jewish settlement expansion on land claimed by the Palestinians for a future state.
159 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:54:39am

re: #149 Honorary Yooper

As said yesterday, it’s a strange psychological sickness they have. Some of them get high on flouncing and then boasting about it. When the affects wear off, they feel the need to flounce again. It’s like a drug.

Unless they have a lot of socks stored up, jonesing for a flounce must be a rough go for your average stalker.

160 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:54:47am

re: #134 Son of the Black Dog

We would have a better educated population if the government (at any level) didn’t control the education system. I’d opt for a voucher system, placing the control of where the money goes in the hands of the parents. If some choose to send their children to a school that promotes YEC (for example) then their children will be at a substantial disadvantage once they get to college.

My personal preference is for non-sectarian schools with parent and interested community boards.

I think there is plenty to discuss as far as improving our education system- don’t get me wrong on that. I think it’s a tragedy any child in this country can’t read by second grade (barring legitimate learning disabilities). But I still support public schools because some communities would have nothing without them. Getting an education is the only hope for some people to get out of the socio-economic situations to which they’re born. Ending public education would condemn them to remaining in those conditions.

161 fizzlogic  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:54:47am

I posted this last night. But I honestly think people need to listen to Frank Schaeffer describe the effect the RR is having on the GOP and our country.

162 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:55:07am

I’m waiting for someone to advocate putting the Wiccan Rede on a courthouse…

*crickets*

That’s what I thought.

163 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #159 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Unless they have a lot of socks stored up, jonesing for a flounce must be a rough go for your average stalker.

It’s amazing how many sock some of these twits register. Charles has bounced some folks with at least 10 different socks.

164 S'latch  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:55:36am

re: #146 Charles

Your sentence is missing a verb.

165 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:56:19am

re: #152 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Can we get the stone tablets inscribed with the rites of Cthulhu on them as well?

That would render everyone in the courtroom instantly insane.

166 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:56:34am

re: #156 ArchangelMichael

Thanks for that, it was most indeed awesome.

167 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:56:50am
168 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Shocker of the day…

Israeli-Palestinian peace talk deal eludes Obama envoy

They’ll blame Israel in 3..2..1…

169 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57:29am

Lets make it easy on the flouncers:

“Gee this place sure has changed from back in (insert date here). I can’t believe Charles is so obsessed with (insert issue here) nowadays. This place is just a (choose 1: Right-wing/Left-wing) echo chamber now. Charles needs to get back to posting about (insert issue here) and get on board with supporting (insert name here).”

There, that should clear up all these flouncing issues once and for all.

170 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57:32am

re: #163 Honorary Yooper

It’s amazing how many sock some of these twits register. Charles has bounced some folks with at least 10 different socks.

One for every occasion: wool, cotton, argyle … /

171 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57:43am

re: #157 Ziggy

I suppose if our justice system were founded on Navajo principles I wouldn’t mind. I’m beginning to be really sorry I started.

Um, Roman Law and Anglo-Saxon Common Law might be more important to our justice system than the 10 Commandments considering that our justice system is based on them.

172 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:57:53am

re: #148 Ziggy

I am, but I’m also trying to read every post that wants to cut my balls off here. Wow, I knew it would set people off, but I had no idea how badly. It’s kind of ironic, because I agree with all of you about religion in schools.

Maybe you should stop, go back and read what Madison had to say about the separation of Church and State, and then you wouldn’t be getting your balls cut off- whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.

This is a tough room, and if you come in with bullshit, it’s going to get called. You should know this- you’re no newbie.

173 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:58:15am

re: #165 Kosh’s Shadow

That would render everyone in the courtroom instantly insane.

So you are familiar with our justice system. :)

174 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:58:22am

I think it’s important to remember the old saying:

“A flounce of intention is worth more than a pound of manure.”

175 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:58:36am

re: #165 Kosh’s Shadow

That would render everyone in the courtroom instantly insane.

Yes, I know

/gently pats the Elder Sign tucked away in his breast pocket.

176 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:58:39am
177 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:59:07am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

So was that you stirring it up on Hot Air last night, or was it someone else using your name?

178 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:59:09am

re: #173 Radicchio ad Absurdum

So you are familiar with our justice system. :)

Yes - my wife’s a defense attorney.

179 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:59:16am

re: #162 ArchangelMichael

I’m waiting for someone to advocate putting the Wiccan Rede on a courthouse…

*crickets*

That’s what I thought.

Only if they acknowledge Rabelais.

180 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:00:01pm

re: #146 Charles

Really? Should they also allow the Bhagavad-Gita and the creation myths of the Navajo tribe in the courtroom? Where do you draw the line?

Or is only Christianity supposed to be allowed in the courtroom?

How ‘bout some good Koranic passages hanging up there on the wall behind the judge? Just to make apostates coming before him feel more comfortable and at ease with the impartiality of the proceedings.

181 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:00:07pm

re: #178 Kosh’s Shadow

Yes - my wife’s a defense attorney.

Good for her.

-No sarc.

182 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:01:07pm

re: #173 Radicchio ad Absurdum

So you are familiar with our justice system. :)

*Whoop!*

Oh, very well done! I’ve sometimes thought that, too.

183 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:01:18pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

IN response to #18 and #19, what I read into them is that the government will not establish a religion nor prohibit the exercise of a religion and will not force religion on any one. I agree completely. It’s freedom of religion and from religion, if that’s what you want. I don’t think that is inconsistent with my view. What I object to is the freedom from crowd trying to take god of our currency, out of the pledge, out of school concerts, off of court room walls etc. There has to be some common ground here.

184 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:01:47pm

re: #179 Dianna

Only if they acknowledge Rabelais.

François Rabelais? I’m missing the connection here…

185 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:02:39pm

re: #134 Son of the Black Dog

We would have a better educated population if the government (at any level) didn’t control the education system. I’d opt for a voucher system, placing the control of where the money goes in the hands of the parents. If some choose to send their children to a school that promotes YEC (for example) then their children will be at a substantial disadvantage once they get to college.

My personal preference is for non-sectarian schools with parent and interested community boards.

Yeah, riiight, shuuure…the last thing we’d wanna do would be to allow the government to continue preventing fundy faiths from taking over the schooling of everybody’s children…

But that’s precisely what they’d do under such a plan. The Southern Baptist and Assembly of God denominations would take losses on providing cheap K-12 education for folks, figuring to get their money back from subsequent tithes when the kids grew up, with power from theocracy-friendly votes serving as a whole tureen of tasty gravy.

186 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:03:17pm

I just have to extend my sincere thanks and a hearty congratulations to Rush Limbaugh and James Dobson for their hard work to make sure GW Bush defeated John McCain for the GOP nomination in 2000. Look at the state of the country and the Republican Party now as compared to 2000. All I can say is that the results speak for themselves.

Great job, Rushie and Jimmie!

I guess.

187 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #183 Ziggy

But this wasn’t your opening premise. You said there was no separation, and that’s completely not true.

188 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:05:07pm
189 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:05:48pm

re: #188 MikeySDCA

Except for on coins, all of these things are post-1950. You are alleging as ancient values a very recent phenomenon with some very well-documented and rather sleazy root. Sorry, no links handy.

God added to pledge in 1954 I think.

190 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:05:49pm

re: #186 funky chicken

I just have to extend my sincere thanks and a hearty congratulations to Rush Limbaugh and James Dobson for their hard work to make sure GW Bush defeated John McCain for the GOP nomination in 2000. Look at the state of the country and the Republican Party now as compared to 2000. All I can say is that the results speak for themselves.

Great job, Rushie and Jimmie!

I guess.

How do you suppose things may have turned out if Ralph Nader hadn’t been on the ballot?

191 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:06:03pm
192 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:06:15pm
193 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:06:19pm

re: #184 ArchangelMichael

François Rabelais? I’m missing the connection here…

“But below the humor was a very real concept of utopia and the ideal society. Rabelais gives us a description of how the Thelemites of the Abbey lived and the rules they lived by:

All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed,

Do What Thou Wilt;

because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour. Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us.”

From the Wikipedia article. Sorry about that, but see here: Second Section, Theleme

194 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:06:47pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

Maybe you should stop, go back and read what Madison had to say about the separation of Church and State, and then you wouldn’t be getting your balls cut off- whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.

This is a tough room, and if you come in with bullshit, it’s going to get called. You should know this- you’re no newbie.

I certainly know it’s a tough room. I can take it, but I don’t think my position is bullshit. I never mind spirited debate.

195 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:07:20pm

BTW, not sure if people are aware of this, but this isn’t the only attempt the right is making to rewage the culture war within TX textbooks. Check this out from a few weeks ago:

The first draft for proposed standards in United States History Studies Since Reconstruction says students should be expected “to identify significant conservative advocacy organizations and individuals, such as Newt Gingrich, Phyllis Schlafly and the Moral Majority.” […] Others have proposed adding talk show host Rush Limbaugh and the National Rifle Association.

The 15-member committee, stacked with 10 Republicans, is expected to vote along party lines. Earlier this year, a panel of right-wing “experts” produced a report urging the committee to remove biographies of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Stephen F. Austin, and César Chávez, and instead add history about the “motivational role the Bible and the Christian faith played in the settling of the original colonies.”


Texas to revise history textbooks: liberals out, Limbaugh and Gingrich in.


History’s first draft: Newt Gingrich but no liberals
Textbooks being written for Texas students appear to lean to the right

So, not only were they proposing to leave Marshall out…they want Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich and the Moral Majority in.

(apologies if this has already been covered)

196 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:07:42pm
I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.

-James Madison

197 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:07:50pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Too busy, with the holiday lead-up, to post much—and this may not be the right thread to do it in.

But l’shana tovah to everyone; a happy New Year, whether you celebrate the Jewish new year or not.

Hi buzz! As far as I can see, there’s no wrong thread to wish folks a happy New Year, and a happy New Year right back to you as well!

198 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:07:58pm

re: #192 MikeySDCA

That’s what I said.

I know thats what you said, which is why you must know, that I know, that that is what you said, because you said it. Well said.

199 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:08:14pm

Let’s just pretend that it’s true that the nation could have been found on ‘Christian’ principles…well…uh…since you can believe or say what you want (aside from the ‘fires in theatre’ type examples) that kind of … uh … negates the whole ‘Christian’ part. No?

200 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:08:37pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Too busy, with the holiday lead-up, to post much—and this may not be the right thread to do it in.

But l’shana tovah to everyone; a happy New Year, whether you celebrate the Jewish new year or not.

and likewise to you, and yours

201 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:09:21pm
202 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Too busy, with the holiday lead-up, to post much—and this may not be the right thread to do it in.

But l’shana tovah to everyone; a happy New Year, whether you celebrate the Jewish new year or not.

and to you as well…I’m not Jewish but I never pass up a good celebration either!

203 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:10:43pm

re: #187 Sharmuta

I think everyone should read or at least skim both of these before they mouth off about the Constitution:

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

Not only the Christian Nation whackos, but everyone on the Left as well.

204 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:10:54pm

re: #177 rwmofo

It was me. I was making a stink about racist comments about the First Lady.

205 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:11:21pm

re: #188 MikeySDCA

Except for on coins, all of these things are post-1950. You are alleging as ancient values a very recent phenomenon with some very well-documented and rather sleazy root. Sorry, no links handy.

Most of what was added, IIRC, was in the reaction to Communism during the 1950s.

206 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:12:46pm

Charles- when we see a stealth dinger now with your new blocking thingy, should we still alert you? If so- Jamfish…

207 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:13:30pm

re: #183 Ziggy

IN response to #18 and #19, what I read into them is that the government will not establish a religion nor prohibit the exercise of a religion and will not force religion on any one. I agree completely. It’s freedom of religion and from religion, if that’s what you want. I don’t think that is inconsistent with my view. What I object to is the freedom from crowd trying to take god of our currency, out of the pledge, out of school concerts, off of court room walls etc. There has to be some common ground here.

Sure, let’s make all those citizens who practice their own religions freely feel especially welcome at court by displaying the following right behind the judge:

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Because that’s all so pertinent to the law of the land and all.

And let’s get all upset about the phrase “In God We Trust” being removed from the currency, since it’s been there since…well, only since 1864, when a bunch of Christian thugs rammed the measure through Congress. Or removing the phrase “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, because it’s been there, like, forever - or at least since the mid-1950s, when Congress inserted it in response to the Godless Commies, at the same time they finally got around to declaing “In God We Trust” to be the Official National Motto.

And yeah, let’s plaster the Christian God’s name all over the public schools, where all those children of parents who are sort of, well, technically allowed to practice their own religions and beliefs sort of freely, well, really AREN’T, because we’re going to use the power of the state to ram fundamentalist Christianity down their little throats with a tamping rod.

Fuck you, and everybody who looks like you. Here’s something I rarely say, but in your case it is totally apt: you don’t belong in the United States. Get out. And don’t let freedom hit you in the ass while you’re trying to slam it shut on everyone else.

Idiot.

208 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:14:00pm

Not much of a shock but people are noticing…
Conservatives use liberal playbook

209 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:14:10pm
210 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:14:13pm

it’s a good thing that Jamfish is setting aside part of this beautiful friday afternoon to flip through last nights threads and ding them.

211 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:14:33pm

re: #193 Dianna

I was not aware that Rabelais had any connection to Thelema. I thought it was Crowley’s ‘let me pull this out of my ass and pretend it’s ancient knowledge’ operation.

212 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:15:06pm

Some less famous Madison quotes:

“HEY, my house is on fire!”
-James Madison


“You know, Dolly, these snack cakes are delicious, you should make a bunch of them and sell them”

-James Madison

213 HoosierHoops  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:15:29pm

re: #191 buzzsawmonkey

Too busy, with the holiday lead-up, to post much—and this may not be the right thread to do it in.

But l’shana tovah to everyone; a happy New Year, whether you celebrate the Jewish new year or not.


May you be blessed with a wonderful new year!

214 fizzlogic  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:15:30pm

re: #205 Honorary Yooper

We can thank my former congressman for sponsoring the bills that did this.

215 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:15:52pm

re: #1 experiencedtraveller

‘Social Studies’ is creationism in the History Department.

OK. You all are right. This was horribly worded as it appears to besmirch all Social Studies as creationism. Which, wasn’t my point at all.

My complaint is that History should be taught as a core, stand alone subject at all levels and the class time used to teach other subjects has come at the direct expense of History. And that is a mistake.

Over the years, social studies has “morphed into a catch-basin for every single social fad. [It] has lost its compass,” he says. “When you embrace everything, you embrace nothing.”

216 JEA62  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:16:01pm

Neither is white and both were liberal.

Surprise…

217 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:16:28pm

re: #211 ArchangelMichael

I was not aware that Rabelais had any connection to Thelema. I thought it was Crowley’s ‘let me pull this out of my ass and pretend it’s ancient knowledge’ operation.

That’s all right. I was just having some fun.

218 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:16:38pm

re: #212 Desert Dog

Some less famous Madison quotes:

“HEY, my house is on fire!”
-James Madison

“You know, Dolly, these snack cakes are delicious, you should make a bunch of them and sell them”

-James Madison

LOL! And:

‘Dolly, have we heard from that slob brother of mine, Oscar?”
- James Madison

219 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:17:17pm

re: #216 JEA62

And you are a douchebag.

Surprise…

220 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:17:43pm

I see we’ve already had some flounces in this thread, god knows why.

People might be inclined to think “Ok, so they’re crazy in TX— I live somewhere else, so what’s the big deal?”

The reason why TX is such a huge battleground in the textbook arena is because the textbooks adopted in Texas influence what the rest of the nation gets, because of the disproportionate impact the TX buy has on the textbook publishing market. So it’s not merely a problem for TX, although that alone be worthy of coverage. It’s a problem for us all.

This 2002 NYT article does a good job of explaining it:

The outcome has far more than regional interest. After California, Texas is the biggest buyer of textbooks in the United States, accounting for nearly 10 percent of the national market. In fact, conservative activists in Texas say they have already received calls from leading publishers anxious to discuss the forthcoming history and social studies adoptions. Many publishers write their books with the Texas and California markets in mind, but complain of political pressure.

‘The bottom line is that Texas and California are the biggest buyers of textbooks in the country, and what we adopt in Texas is what the rest of the country gets,” said Carol Jones, the field director of the Texas chapter of Citizens for a Sound Economy, part of the coalition monitoring books for errors, examples of political bias, omissions or information that it deems offensive and that it says gives the texts a liberal slant.

Textbook Publishers Learn to Avoid Messing With Texas

221 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:17:44pm
Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, and the full establishment of it in some parts of our country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Government and Religion neither can be duly supported. Such, indeed, is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded against.

-James Madison

222 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #209 MikeySDCA

The Ten Commandments stuff was largely the work of the Fraternal Order of Eagles funded by Cecil B. DeMille to promote his eponymous movie.

LOL!

223 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #218 subsailor68

LOL! And:

‘Dolly, have we heard from that slob brother of mine, Oscar?”
- James Madison

“Not since he ran of with that no good Meyer boy . . “

224 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:18:27pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.
-James Madison


Perhaps I’m obtuse, but to me abstaining from interference doesn’t mean a complete removal of god from the public square. I take it to mean, don’t interfere.

225 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:19:42pm

re: #224 Ziggy

Perhaps I’m obtuse, but to me abstaining from interference doesn’t mean a complete removal of god from the public square. I take it to mean, don’t interfere.

Nor is the government to promote religion. The First Amendment is quite clear on this.

226 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:20:13pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

It was me. I was making a stink about racist comments about the First Lady.

You…succeeded in getting your point across.

Did you try to email Ed or AP before throwing the grenades?

227 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:20:13pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

Charles- when we see a stealth dinger now with your new blocking thingy, should we still alert you? If so- Jamfish…

What’s the new blocking thingie?

228 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:20:47pm

re: #207 SixDegrees
Wow, you’re so open minded and inclusive of all views. Tolerant people like you are what makes this country great. /

229 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #227 iceweasel

He’s going to block their ability to ding.

230 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:21:25pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

Nor is the government to promote religion. The First Amendment is quite clear on this.

To be absolutely fair, the understanding of “Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion” has expanded quite a lot.

I do not, btw, dispute that it’s a good thing, though some manifestations of that expansion have been hilarious.

231 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:21:42pm
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

-Thomas Jefferson, 1802, remarking on the First Amendment

232 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #220 iceweasel

Then maybe it has come time to ignore Texas and start getting the books we need for the rest of the United States. Texas may be a big market, but several other states banded together can outweight them.

233 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:22:05pm

re: #207 SixDegrees

Sure, let’s make all those citizens who practice their own religions freely feel especially welcome at court by displaying the following right behind the judge:

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Because that’s all so pertinent to the law of the land and all.

And let’s get all upset about the phrase “In God We Trust” being removed from the currency, since it’s been there since…well, only since 1864, when a bunch of Christian thugs rammed the measure through Congress. Or removing the phrase “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, because it’s been there, like, forever - or at least since the mid-1950s, when Congress inserted it in response to the Godless Commies, at the same time they finally got around to declaing “In God We Trust” to be the Official National Motto.

And yeah, let’s plaster the Christian God’s name all over the public schools, where all those children of parents who are sort of, well, technically allowed to practice their own religions and beliefs sort of freely, well, really AREN’T, because we’re going to use the power of the state to ram fundamentalist Christianity down their little throats with a tamping rod.

Fuck you, and everybody who looks like you. Here’s something I rarely say, but in your case it is totally apt: you don’t belong in the United States. Get out. And don’t let freedom hit you in the ass while you’re trying to slam it shut on everyone else.

Idiot.

Irony Alert:
You sound like a Nazi when you tell fellow citizens they don’t belong in the country and that they should get out of the country.

234 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:22:26pm

re: #227 iceweasel

What’s the new blocking thingie?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

235 vxbush  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:22:51pm

re: #231 SixDegrees

SixDegrees, which document is that from? Is that from the Federalist Papers?

236 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:23:49pm

re: #226 rwmofo

Yeah, they finally started deleting some of the racist comments. Are they still talking about it over there?

237 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:23:59pm

re: #224 Ziggy

Perhaps I’m obtuse, but to me abstaining from interference doesn’t mean a complete removal of god from the public square. I take it to mean, don’t interfere.

It means government power will not be used to promote religion - among other things. So hanging up the ten commandments in a public courtroom or a public school, or yammering on about God from the bully pulpit of government power, is strictly forbidden.

If you don’t like it, go find some third world cesspool to dwell in that you find more comfortable.

238 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:24:12pm
239 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #235 vxbush

SixDegrees, which document is that from? Is that from the Federalist Papers?

One of Jefferson’s letters during Adams’ presidency.

240 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:24:38pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

It was me. I was making a stink about racist comments about the First Lady.

Killgore, I noted the effort, but so did the Deucers. Due to your comments on Hot Air, they’re now trying to use your comments against you. In fact one of the dimwits started reposting them over there.

241 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:08pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

Yeah, they finally started deleting some of the racist comments. Are they still talking about it over there?

Question is: Did they delete them because they were over the top, or did they delete them because they came from you? If it’s the latter it does not prove anything one way or the other.

242 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:23pm

re: #235 vxbush

SixDegrees, which document is that from? Is that from the Federalist Papers?

Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists

243 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:35pm

re: #232 Honorary Yooper

Then maybe it has come time to ignore Texas and start getting the books we need for the rest of the United States. Texas may be a big market, but several other states banded together can outweight them.

Most states don’t make statewide textbook purchases, that role is delegated to individual school systems. One positive aspect of this is that if one school system screws up, it doesn’t screw up everybody. Centralizing textbook purchase is just asking for more of what we’ve got going on in Texas.

244 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:36pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Not much of a shock but people are noticing…
Conservatives use liberal playbook

Bah. Politico is well known for whoring for Drudge links. That story is another in a series some on the left derisively refer to as their ‘Drudge-bait’.

If conservatives really wanted to take a page from the liberal playbook, they’d be regrouping, rebranding, retooling their message, and using the internet to network, strategise, and get the word out. They’d also be marginalising the crazies.

Instead, they’re using the excuse ‘following the liberal playbook’ as a justification to act as badly as possible and bleat the excuse ‘teh libs did it! so there!’ at every opportunity. As if the left ever carried weapons to townhalls, etc.

It’s a lot easier to run around screaming and acting like an idiot than getting your shit together. The left did it for a few years too — but didn’t win elections that way.

245 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #240 Honorary Yooper

Ah. I’m not too worried about the stalkers.

246 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:25:52pm

re: #203 ArchangelMichael

I think everyone should read or at least skim both of these before they mouth off about the Constitution:

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

[Link: www.amazon.com…]

Not only the Christian Nation whackos, but everyone on the Left as well.

I do not disagree with you at all. I favor a return to genuine civics education in this country, where students would be expected to read these books. What we have now is “government” - this fails to educate American children on why our system of government was structured the way it was and the historical reasonings behind it.

247 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:26:11pm

re: #235 vxbush

SixDegrees, which document is that from? Is that from the Federalist Papers?

Hi vx! No, the Federalist Papers were written by Hamilton, Madison, and John Jay. I think that was a letter Jefferson wrote, but can’t remember to whom. (Sorry.)

248 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:26:20pm

re: #239 Dianna

One of Jefferson’s letters during Adams’ presidency.

Not in 1802. Adams was only president from 1797 to 1801, and it wasn’t until the mid eighteen-teens that they started to exchange letters, IIRC.

249 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:26:31pm

re: #240 Honorary Yooper

This is one of the main reasons I didn’t think it a good idea.

250 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:26:35pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

Nor is the government to promote religion. The First Amendment is quite clear on this.

I read it as the government shall not establishing a state religion, as in you must practice x, y or z. You can practice anything you want or nothing at all.

251 Desert Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:26:36pm

re: #247 subsailor68

Hi vx! No, the Federalist Papers were written by Hamilton, Madison, and John Jay. I think that was a letter Jefferson wrote, but can’t remember to whom. (Sorry.)

re: #242 Desert Dog

Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists

252 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #232 Honorary Yooper

Then maybe it has come time to ignore Texas and start getting the books we need for the rest of the United States. Texas may be a big market, but several other states banded together can outweight them.

problem is, in other states buys aren’t made at the state level, but at the individual school district level. A state like NY won’t have one approved social studies textbook, but many.

253 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:27:25pm

re: #241 ArchangelMichael

If the stalkers try to make something about it they’re only going to draw attention to the fact that Hot Air readers frequently call Michelle Obama a wookie.

254 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #233 Spare O’Lake

Irony Alert:
You sound like a Nazi when you tell fellow citizens they don’t belong in the country and that they should get out of the country.

Not a Nazi; I’m not suggesting anyone be exterminated. Someone who’s extremely pissed off and wants those who choose to subvert the principles the nation was founded on to get the hell out and yammer elsewhere.

Like I said, it isn’t a position I take on lightly. It’s reserved for those religious zealots who attempt to shove their religion down the throats of all citizens using the power of the state as a tamping iron. They are so dramatically, fundamentally at odds with what the nation stands for that there is no hope of reforming them, and they have no place here.

I’m aware it’s unpleasant. So is forcing any particular brand of religion down someone’s throat by government edict.

255 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:27:38pm

re: #251 Desert Dog

That’s it! Thanks very much.

256 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:27:59pm

re: #248 Honorary Yooper

Not in 1802. Adams was only president from 1797 to 1801, and it wasn’t until the mid eighteen-teens that they started to exchange letters, IIRC.

Right - I thought it was written during his vice-presidency, when he had not a whole lot to do. Sorry. Brain fart brought on by too little blood sugar and too much coffee.

257 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:28:33pm

re: #235 vxbush

SixDegrees, which document is that from? Is that from the Federalist Papers?

It’s Jefferson’s response to the Danbury Baptists, and is known as the Danbury letter.

258 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #250 Ziggy

Where in the Constitution does the government have the right to promote religion?

259 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:29:34pm

I think they should include Paul Robeson and Dolly Parton on the same page in their history text, with photos.

260 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:29:34pm

re: #237 SixDegrees

It means government power will not be used to promote religion - among other things. So hanging up the ten commandments in a public courtroom or a public school, or yammering on about God from the bully pulpit of government power, is strictly forbidden.

If you don’t like it, go find some third world cesspool to dwell in that you find more comfortable.

I am not saying that the government should promote religion and I’m not suggesting the state hang the frigging 10 commandments in every court room. What I am saying is if a judge wants it there he should be able to have it.

261 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #250 Ziggy

I read it as the government shall not establishing a state religion, as in you must practice x, y or z. You can practice anything you want or nothing at all.

So if I put a giant plaque on the main hallway of the public high school saying, “for God so loved the world that he gave his only…”, that would not be considered establishing a state religion?

262 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:11pm

re: #245 Killgore Trout

Ah. I’m not too worried about the stalkers.

I’m not either, but it does seem to provide some very interesting reading of their comments, and some very interesting insights into some of those commenting over there. It also demostrates how obsessed they seem to be with you in particular.

I’ve never understood the obsession they have with you in particular, Killgore. You’re really not much different than the rest of us here, and yet you get singled out. It’s nuts.

263 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout
As loathsome as wookie is, you spammed with the N word. Do not deny it. It was not a good way to make a point. It gives LGF a black eye.

264 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:39pm

I was scrolling through about a half hour after you whipped out the flame-thrower. I think I may have asked you here (once) if that was actually you around midnight (CDT) but didn’t get a response. It didn’t seem like you, so I thought it may be someone impersonating you.

I read the articles, but don’t comment much there. Apparently obviously they don’t monitor commenters in real time.

Just curious if you tried to email Ed or AP (who tilts left) before you went blasting in.

…or (getting a clue now) maybe you don’t care what they think.

265 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:50pm

re: #258 Sharmuta

Where in the Constitution does the government have the right to promote religion?

250 Quatloos on the “General Welfare clause” everyone uses that for their pet bullshit. It’s been stretched so wide you could pass an aircraft carrier through it.

266 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:57pm

re: #260 Ziggy

No, verboten to put up the decalogue.

Some of the criminal code is parallel however, you can put up that.

267 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:30:59pm

It’s Madison Time!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MiMrtI3aQ4

268 badger1970  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:31:07pm

re: #259 Ojoe

and Willie Nelson with a smoke.

269 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:31:16pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

Not a Nazi; I’m not suggesting anyone be exterminated. Someone who’s extremely pissed off and wants those who choose to subvert the principles the nation was founded on to get the hell out and yammer elsewhere.

Like I said, it isn’t a position I take on lightly. It’s reserved for those religious zealots who attempt to shove their religion down the throats of all citizens using the power of the state as a tamping iron. They are so dramatically, fundamentally at odds with what the nation stands for that there is no hope of reforming them, and they have no place here.

I’m aware it’s unpleasant. So is forcing any particular brand of religion down someone’s throat by government edict.

No, no, no.
You don’t round them up and deport them - that is fascist.
You defeat them in the public square and at the ballot box.

270 BignJames  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:31:26pm

re: #260 Ziggy

I am not saying that the government should promote religion and I’m not suggesting the state hang the frigging 10 commandments in every court room. What I am saying is if a judge wants it there he should be able to have it.

How about some porn…that ok too?

271 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:32:04pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

Not a Nazi; I’m not suggesting anyone be exterminated. Someone who’s extremely pissed off and wants those who choose to subvert the principles the nation was founded on to get the hell out and yammer elsewhere.

Like I said, it isn’t a position I take on lightly. It’s reserved for those religious zealots who attempt to shove their religion down the throats of all citizens using the power of the state as a tamping iron. They are so dramatically, fundamentally at odds with what the nation stands for that there is no hope of reforming them, and they have no place here.

I’m aware it’s unpleasant. So is forcing any particular brand of religion down someone’s throat by government edict.

FYI, I’m not a religious zealot at all. I’m pro choice, anti creationist, freedom loving, leave everyone the F alone and let them do what they want kind of American. I think you’re the one who’s trying to shove your views down everyones throat.

272 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:32:21pm

re: #238 MikeySDCA

You would do well to be wary about quoting TJ. He was very extremist on this issue, and some of his quotes might embarrass you.

At issue is the original intent of the Constitution’s First Amendment and what those who authored it meant it to say. Those claiming that there is no “separation of church and state” in the Constitution need to contend with Jefferson’s explicit use of the phrase here while explaining the Amendment’s meaning. He doesn’t leave any doubt - there is a “wall of separation” erected between the government and religion.

273 KingKenrod  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:32:29pm

Hot Air posted this statement about an hour ago. Ed Morrissey:

We love our comment section and our commenters, as they almost always provide an extended level of dialogue, debate, and fun here at Hot Air. As we have grown in traffic and impact, our comment sections have grown accordingly — and that’s wonderful. We try to open our registration on a regular basis to catch newer readers and allow them to participate, because that lends a dynamic element to Hot Air and the analysis provided by myself, Allahpundit, and Michelle Malkin.

However, that increased impact brings increased scrutiny, and also some underhanded tactics designed to discredit us. That doesn’t mean that we haven’t seen problems in our comments section at Hot Air, though. Others have used disparaging comments towards certain politicians and their families that cross the line. We have tried to deal with this on a case-by-case basis, but it has taken an increasing amount of our time, and we’re likely to see more attempts to troll comments as a discrediting tactic. We have been blessed with a great set of regular commenters who see these and notify us when they occur, which allows us to catch most of them.

Given the likelihood of further attempts to attack, we are going to start getting a lot tougher on comments and moderation. We welcome debate and humor, but if you use racial, ethnic, and/or animal terms to describe politicians and their families (I’m certain I don’t need to explain further), your comments will get deleted and your account closed. We have plenty to criticize without getting that ugly and handing our opponents ammunition — and besides, in the end, those attacks just aren’t right. They detract from the overwhelming majority of conscientious commenters in the Hot Air community.

Let’s just keep it on point in the future, please. Thank you for your support and understanding.

274 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:32:30pm

re: #268 badger1970

Yes. And Sherman, who said “If I owned hell and Texas, I’d rent out Texas and live in hell.”

BBL …

275 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:33:37pm

re: #273 KingKenrod

Hot Air posted this statement about an hour ago. Ed Morrissey:

It’s about freaking time.

Everybody, go ahead and bash KT some more. They wouldn’t have done this if he hadn’t pushed the issue… hard.

276 rwmofo  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:34:12pm

re: #263 snowcrash

As loathsome as wookie is, you spammed with the N word. Do not deny it. It was not a good way to make a point. It gives LGF a black eye.

I agree. I was more than a little disappointed seeing that.

277 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:34:34pm

re: #273 KingKenrod

Hot Air posted this statement about an hour ago. Ed Morrissey:

Interesting. If it weren’t for Killgore that wouldn’t have been posted.

278 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:34:38pm

re: #273 KingKenrod

Hot Air posted this statement about an hour ago. Ed Morrissey:

Hopefully this leads to Hot Air getting cleaned up and pulling itself from the sewer.

279 erraticsphinx  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:35:05pm

re: #260 Ziggy

The court can’t be a judge’s personal fiefdom, he/she represents the rule of law.

280 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:35:17pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Interesting. If it weren’t for Killgore that wouldn’t have been posted.

Very true. It’s a shame it even got that far.

281 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:35:29pm

re: #278 Honorary Yooper

Hopefully this leads to Hot Air getting cleaned up and pulling itself from the sewer.

They will need to hire Dalton or Wade Garrett to clean up that slaughterhouse.

282 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:35:40pm

re: #278 Honorary Yooper

Hopefully this leads to Hot Air getting cleaned up and pulling itself from the sewer.

That would mean my unicorn would finally arrive!

283 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:35:54pm

re: #261 cliffster

So if I put a giant plaque on the main hallway of the public high school saying, “for God so loved the world that he gave his only…”, that would not be considered establishing a state religion?

I think that would be promoting a specific religion. The country, as I understand it anyway, was founded on Judeo/Christian values. The 10 commandments is a part of both religions and is a moral guide for people and I could give a crap if a judge had it in his courthouse or not.

284 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:06pm

re: #252 iceweasel

problem is, in other states buys aren’t made at the state level, but at the individual school district level. A state like NY won’t have one approved social studies textbook, but many.

The problem is that other textbooks simply won’t get published because there isn’t enough of a market to sustain them.

But you’re correct that one way to combat this nonsense is to encourage local school boards to do exactly that - demand their own textbooks free of preaching - and create the demand on their own. Concentrating on one or two states that have the most impact on such decisions, however, is part of the creationist strategy, and without a united counter-demand for accurate material they will prevail.

285 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #261 cliffster

…that would not be considered establishing a state religion?

Among other things it would be hugely offensive bad manners.

286 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #270 BignJames

How about some porn…that ok too?

Only in chambers

287 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:32pm

re: #281 ArchangelMichael

They will need to hire Dalton or Wade Garrett to clean up that slaughterhouse.

Hey, one can hope. And if Hot Air has to do it, maybe others will finally follow suit.

288 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:39pm

This Nation was Founded on Enlightenment Principles.

Creationism and historical revisionism to insert a “Christian Nation” meme are nothing more than an attack on reason and a desire to return to atavism. It’s anti-progress and the exact same mindset we’re trying to combat in places like Afghanistan.

289 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:36:39pm

Ed Morrissey is about to find out how much some people want to post racist comments at Hot Air. They’re not going to be happy at all if he starts enforcing this.

290 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:37:22pm

re: #229 Sharmuta

re: #234 Danny

Thanks. Looks like a great idea. I’m quite certain some of those downdingers are sockpuppets of current or future denizens of the Village of the Banned. In some cases they are sockpuppets of commenters here who are too chickenshit to express their views any other way.

In all those cases, the puppet exists for no reason other than to ding. I noticed for a while there that my karma would drop 200 points or so every other day, especially if I weren’t posting. Always the stealth downdingers.

But apart from them using it to attack individual commenters they have a grudge with, the more worrisome issue is the effort to make LGF look extremist or skewed towards extremist opinion.

291 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:37:32pm

re: #288 Sharmuta

One thousand updings.

292 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #278 Honorary Yooper

Hopefully this leads to Hot Air getting cleaned up and pulling itself from the sewer.

A brief check using Google suggests that they appear to have removed every single comment containing the word wookie. Pull up a cached page that has wookie in it and then check for the current version of the page and those comments are gone.

293 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:38:00pm

Gee, and they wouldn’t have removed the “end of life counseling” language if Palin hadn’t brought up “death panels”. That tactic was roundly criticised here if I recall. But this is different? Both involve using over the top rhetoric to make a point.

294 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #273 KingKenrod

Hot Air posted this statement about an hour ago. Ed Morrissey:

Sometimes, shining a spotlight gets the roach’s attention. Kudos to Ed for publishing this, and here’s hoping the rest of those running Hot Air follow through on it.

295 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:38:28pm

re: #289 Charles

Ed Morrissey is about to find out how much some people want to post racist comments at Hot Air. They’re not going to be happy at all if he starts enforcing this.

I hope he does enforce it. He might also get an insight as to the hell you’ve gone through with this sort of crap.

Of course, if he does enforce it, watch for some nutjob to start up “HotAir2” or some such stalker site for them.

296 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:38:30pm

re: #289 Charles

Ed Morrissey is about to find out how much some people want to post racist comments at Hot Air. They’re not going to be happy at all if he starts enforcing this.

Someone will have to start a HotAir2!

297 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:38:39pm

Using the N-word, (spelled out in full, over & over, as many as 5 times) to make a point, is pushing the issue hard. I understand.
/

298 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:09pm

re: #275 Charles

It’s about freaking time.

Everybody, go ahead and bash KT some more. They wouldn’t have done this if he hadn’t pushed the issue… hard.

I agree. It’s a shame they didn’t think of this without Killgore resorting to an extreme. They really shouldn’t be too proud of themselves.

299 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:13pm

What is the difference Charles?

300 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:34pm

re: #290 iceweasel

sent you a mail…

301 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:47pm

re: #275 Charles

It’s about freaking time.

Everybody, go ahead and bash KT some more. They wouldn’t have done this if he hadn’t pushed the issue… hard.

Right on.

302 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:54pm

re: #296 Son of the Black Dog

Someone will have to start a HotAir2!

LOL

303 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:39:56pm

re: #283 Ziggy

I think that would be promoting a specific religion. The country, as I understand it anyway, was founded on Judeo/Christian values. The 10 commandments is a part of both religions and is a moral guide for people and I could give a crap if a judge had it in his courthouse or not.

getting tiresome…you seem to miss the larger point even after it’s been explained nicely by very articulate posters…it’s about freedom from Judeo/Christian values and that’s good for everyone…ho hum

304 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:40:15pm

re: #293 snowcrash

Gee, and they wouldn’t have removed the “end of life counseling” language if Palin hadn’t brought up “death panels”. That tactic was roundly criticised here if I recall. But this is different? Both involve using over the top rhetoric to make a point.

I suspect that the difference is that Palin is supposed to be a political leader (at least potentially), and KT is merely someone who comments.

305 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:40:19pm

I thought we were fighting against this kind of thing?

306 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #289 Charles

Ed Morrissey is about to find out how much some people want to post racist comments at Hot Air. They’re not going to be happy at all if he starts enforcing this.

As I’ve noted before, I used to have a lot of respect for Ed, and this missive shows why - he’s acknowledging the problem and promising to deal with it. I’m assuming he’ll be as good as his word and follow up, too.

You’re correct, of course - anyone capable of tossing around the sorts of comments that have appeared over there recently is certainly capable of even more frothing and raving once the door gets slammed shut in their face.

Tough. Let ‘em wail.

307 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:40:38pm

re: #295 Honorary Yooper

I hope he does enforce it. He might also get an insight as to the hell you’ve gone through with this sort of crap.

Of course, if he does enforce it, watch for some nutjob to start up “HotAir2” or some such stalker site for them.

TWO Seconds.

308 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:40:48pm

re: #299 snowcrash

What is the difference Charles?

Killgore wasn’t lying- that’s the difference. The comments over there were offensive and racist. Palin didn’t base anything on the truth with her rhetoric.

309 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #307 Son of the Black Dog

TWO Seconds.

Hey, a deuce is still a deuce.

310 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #297 unrealizedviewpoint

Using the N-word, (spelled out in full, over & over, as many as 5 times) to make a point, is pushing the issue hard. I understand.
/

Lee Atwater

311 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:41:59pm

re: #296 Son of the Black Dog

Someone will have to start a HotAir2!

Electric Boogaloo

312 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:42:13pm

re: #297 unrealizedviewpoint

Using the N-word, (spelled out in full, over & over, as many as 5 times) to make a point, is pushing the issue hard. I understand.
/

Do you think any action would have been taken without it?

How bad does it have to get before people are willing to see that there’s a serious problem?

I looked at that thread before KT pulled his stunt, and it was just horrible.

313 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:42:48pm

re: #304 Dianna
It is unacceptable in all its forms. Tea party or hotair or LGF. There is no gray area here.

314 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:42:56pm

re: #279 erraticsphinx

The court can’t be a judge’s personal fiefdom, he/she represents the rule of law.


I agree, but I don’t think that means that he can’t have it hanging there. As long as he doesn’t sentence someone to saying the rosery 15 times.

315 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:43:16pm

re: #295 Honorary Yooper

I hope he does enforce it. He might also get an insight as to the hell you’ve gone through with this sort of crap.

Of course, if he does enforce it, watch for some nutjob to start up “HotAir2” or some such stalker site for them.

Ed and Allah do both get a lot of hatemail, I’m sure. Sometimes their comment sections are filled with abuse towards them.

this doesn’t change the fact that they’re both pretty awful in their respective ways. Ed most of all, because he used to be better and he clearly knows better— but he’s now pandering to the crowd at Malkin’s House o’Bile.

316 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:43:46pm

re: #190 rwmofo

How do you suppose things may have turned out if Ralph Nader hadn’t been on the ballot?

Honestly, that depends upon whether Gore was clinically insane before he lost the 2000 election. His HE BETRAYED OUR COUNTRY screaming rant indicated that he is less stable than even Michael Savage, IMHO.

Would Gore have screwed up worse than GW Bush? It’s hard to say, really. I didn’t vote in 2000 because I thought it was a choice between two 2nd generation politicians’ sons who weren’t particularly intelligent or compelling, and it’s cold in November in NJ.

But I still maintain that McCain would have done better than either Bush or Gore. Of course it’s easy to say that, I guess.

317 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:45:05pm

re: #303 albusteve

getting tiresome…you seem to miss the larger point even after it’s been explained nicely by very articulate posters…it’s about freedom from Judeo/Christian values and that’s good for everyone…ho hum


I agree, it’s getting tiresome. Agreeing to disagree and calling it a day isn’t always a bad course of action.

318 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:46:13pm

re: #312 Charles

Do you think any action would have been taken without it?

How bad does it have to get before people are willing to see that there’s a serious problem?

I looked at that thread before KT pulled his stunt, and it was just horrible.


I am unfamilair with this, what did kilgore do to effect this change?

319 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #313 snowcrash


It is unacceptable in all its forms. Tea party or hotair or LGF. There is no gray area here.

Extreme sarcasm, irony, and cynical exaggeration are ways of drawing attention to an issue. The problems arise when people disagree about the basis for the sarcasm, irony, and cynical exaggeration.

320 erraticsphinx  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:47:43pm

re: #314 Ziggy

I agree to disagree, there you go.

321 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:47:51pm

re: #312 Charles

Do you think any action would have been taken without it?

How bad does it have to get before people are willing to see that there’s a serious problem?

I looked at that thread before KT pulled his stunt, and it was just horrible.

I’m sorry, IMO, Killgore’s actions (using the N-word over & over as he did) is reprehensible. The ends do not justify the means.

322 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:48:00pm

re: #297 unrealizedviewpoint

I hope you’re not holding your breath for that apology.

323 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:49:11pm
324 Syrah  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:49:17pm

re: #296 Son of the Black Dog

Someone will have to start a HotAir2!

For some reason, those second-sites remind me of a fascinating first series Star Trek episode titled “Mirror Mirror.”

They are the mirror universe.

325 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:49:37pm

Yeah- Killgore’s the problem because he pointed out the racism. Just like Charles is the problem with the counter-jihad because he noticed the fascists.

Go ahead and condemn Killgore for being over the top. Never mind AP and Ed letting this go completely unrestrained for months and months on end.

326 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:49:59pm

re: #319 Dianna

Extreme sarcasm, irony, and cynical exaggeration are ways of drawing attention to an issue. The problems arise when people disagree about the basis for the sarcasm, irony, and cynical exaggeration.

Was darf die Satire?

Alles.

—Kurt Tucholsky

327 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:50:10pm

re: #321 unrealizedviewpoint

I’m sorry, IMO, Killgore’s actions (using the N-word over & over as he did) is reprehensible. The ends do not justify the means.

kudos for your unwavering convictions…meanwhile KT got it done while you sit and bitch about it

328 vxbush  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:50:16pm

The problem with “promotion of religion” is that I fear I don’t have a good understanding of what constitutes promotion.

* forcing everyone to attend a specific church? Absolutely.
* forcing everyone to sit through a specific lecture of history that involves only one religious position? Absolutely.
* offering an optional class where various religious viewpoints and their impact on the nation’s history are discussed? I don’t think so. Only one position isn’t being presented.
* A poster on a wall with the ten commandments on it? If it’s in a classroom, that’s very touchy, and I can understand not having such a poster because it can seem to have the backing of the school district and thus might be seen as pushing a religion. But if it’s a monument on a town square near a courthouse, that’s a bit harder for me to buy. I need a better argument for why that is promoting religion. What if the monument was put up by a private organization? Does that make it okay, then?

Serious questions here. “Promotion” seems to be a fuzzier term than I can comprehend.

329 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:50:38pm

.re: #319 Dianna

What’s done is done, but it makes us all look bad. It reflects an attitude that I do not share and makes me angry. I see your point, I always do, but I’m not reasonable right now, so I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

330 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #320 erraticsphinx

I agree to disagree, there you go.


Awsome, I’m glad we can end on a positive note.

331 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:51:45pm

And again — I don’t expect this to be read by any of the haters, but I had nothing to do with what Killgore Trout posted at Hot Air. It wasn’t my idea, I wasn’t behind this, and if he’d asked me first I would have advised him not to do it.

But the comments at Hot Air really are a racist sewer. Hundreds and hundreds of “jokes” about “the First Wookie” and the like. Constant whining about how the evil MSM is accusing them of racism … mixed in with outright racist comments!

Never mind the constant, sickening personal attacks on me. I don’t expect them to anything about those. Last night I saw comments about my mother there. Nobody in a position to do anything about it gives a flying shit.

I predict the racist comments aren’t going to stop, and they’re still not going to be deleted, but maybe I’ll be wrong.

332 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:51:46pm

re: #327 albusteve

kudos for your unwavering convictions…meanwhile KT got it done while you sit and bitch about it

I guess he could have threatened them with violence too. Maybe that would have worked. Would that have been okay?

333 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:52:12pm

re: #325 Sharmuta

I see both sides of this. KT’s method was a bit much, for some people. Maybe it served a purpose. But - from what a couple people have said - it was ugly, on its face.

This is not condemning KT. It’s expressing discomfort over, even condemning, his method.

334 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:52:16pm

re: #329 snowcrash

.

What’s done is done, but it makes us all look bad. It reflects an attitude that I do not share and makes me angry. I see your point, I always do, but I’m not reasonable right now, so I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

nonsense

335 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #314 Ziggy

I agree, but I don’t think that means that he can’t have it hanging there. As long as he doesn’t sentence someone to saying the rosery 15 times.

That’s exactly what it means. The Supreme Court has ruled on this precise issue. Displaying religious tracts in a public courtroom violates the establishment clause, pure and simple.

Do I really need to go through the whole list of commandments, one by one, and point out the inanity of claiming they’re somehow a legal document of some kind?

336 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #323 MikeySDCA

I voted for Gore, and have always thanked God he lost. He would have disintegrated after 9-11. I’m not saying Shrub was perfect, but things could have been done far worse.

You’re probably right. Losing the election to Bush either pushed him way over the edge of sanity, or he was certifiable all along and the MSM cocoon kept him all wrapped up and secure.

337 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:52:51pm

re: #326 Cato the Elder

My German’s non-existent, barring a few songs. What?

338 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:53:42pm

re: #332 unrealizedviewpoint

I guess he could have threatened them with violence too. Maybe that would have worked. Would that have been okay?

how can you threaten a blog with violence?…get real

339 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:54:02pm

re: #337 Dianna

My German’s non-existent, barring a few songs. What?

Basically, everything is satire, if I read it right.

340 bloodnok  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:54:15pm

re: #329 snowcrash

.

What’s done is done, but it makes us all look bad. It reflects an attitude that I do not share and makes me angry. I see your point, I always do, but I’m not reasonable right now, so I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

How does anything that KT does here or anywhere else reflect on you personally?

341 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:54:38pm

The comments section was terrible, but, unfortunately, it is Killgore’s comments that are being noticed. Ace posted a rather disgusting, IMHO, screed about it, calling Charles an Obergruppenkommander. Some asshole also is using Charles’s name in the comments section there.

It may have woken Ed and AP up to the sewer that is their comments section, but I cannot condone the activity.

If anyone wants to see, here’s the Ace page:
“minx.cc/?post=292511”
I will not make a direct link to that sewer.

342 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:55:08pm

re: #338 albusteve

how can you threaten a blog with violence?…get real

I’ve been slapping this thread for hours and I still can’t get it to post nude pics of Lucy Lawless. It just doesn’t work.

343 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:55:18pm

re: #334 albusteve
Hey, I haven’t said I’m glad to see you back posting since youv’e been back!
Fingers crossed for a good outcome.

344 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:55:18pm

re: #328 vxbush

The problem with “promotion of religion” is that I fear I don’t have a good understanding of what constitutes promotion.

* forcing everyone to attend a specific church? Absolutely.
* forcing everyone to sit through a specific lecture of history that involves only one religious position? Absolutely.
* offering an optional class where various religious viewpoints and their impact on the nation’s history are discussed? I don’t think so. Only one position isn’t being presented.
* A poster on a wall with the ten commandments on it? If it’s in a classroom, that’s very touchy, and I can understand not having such a poster because it can seem to have the backing of the school district and thus might be seen as pushing a religion. But if it’s a monument on a town square near a courthouse, that’s a bit harder for me to buy. I need a better argument for why that is promoting religion. What if the monument was put up by a private organization? Does that make it okay, then?

Serious questions here. “Promotion” seems to be a fuzzier term than I can comprehend.

It’s a violation because it is put there by the government, and represents an implicit endorsement by the government.

There’s no prohibition on private groups erecting private monuments on private property. It won’t fly on public property for the reason already given - it’s an implicit endorsement by the government of what the monument represents - and in fact this has been upheld any number of times by a whole variety of courts.

345 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:55:38pm
346 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #338 albusteve

how can you threaten a blog with violence?…get real

If some believe it’s okay for Killgore to utilize racist comments as the N-word (spelled in full, repeatedly) to effect change, then maybe threatening violence to effect change is okay.
/I think not.

347 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:06pm

re: #333 Dianna

I have already stated I neither applaud nor condemn KT.

I’m a bit bothered, however, that KT is a bigger issue for some than the issue he was trying to address.

348 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:25pm

re: #339 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Basically, everything is satire, if I read it right.

An update on Juvenal?

349 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:42pm

re: #345 MikeySDCA

I think it means,”What does satire allow? Everything.”

Probably. My German isn’t that good.

350 SpaceJesus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:43pm

it says satire can do anything

351 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:56:57pm

re: #312 Charles

Do you think any action would have been taken without it?

How bad does it have to get before people are willing to see that there’s a serious problem?

I looked at that thread before KT pulled his stunt, and it was just horrible.

Sometimes pulling someone away from the wall doesn’t do them justice. Sometimes a quick push to hit the wall harder is what is needed.

This will help out HotAir’s legitimacy immensely in the future. Twist this how they might want to … but Killgore did them a favor.

352 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:57:30pm

re: #343 snowcrash

Hey, I haven’t said I’m glad to see you back posting since youv’e been back!
Fingers crossed for a good outcome.

thanks…much appreciated

353 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:57:53pm

re: #335 SixDegrees

That’s exactly what it means. The Supreme Court has ruled on this precise issue. Displaying religious tracts in a public courtroom violates the establishment clause, pure and simple.

Do I really need to go through the whole list of commandments, one by one, and point out the inanity of claiming they’re somehow a legal document of some kind?

Look dude, I never said it was legal documents. It was a damn piece of art work that offended some frigging ACLU type. Some people are just to sensitive and can’t turn the other cheek. (that was a joke, btw)

354 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:57:57pm

re: #329 snowcrash

It doesn’t reflect poorly on me at all. I can only take responsibility for what I say. I post here occasionally, but I am not part of any collective here. I agree with some of what Charles says and disagree with what some of Charles says.

What Killgore did, he did of his own volition and it shouldn’t have any bearing on Charles at all. Now if Charles sent him over there on some sort of weirdo clandestine cyber-mission then I could see where the furor comes from.

355 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:03pm

re: #341 Honorary Yooper

The comments section was terrible, but, unfortunately, it is Killgore’s comments that are being noticed. Ace posted a rather disgusting, IMHO, screed about it, calling Charles an Obergruppenkommander. Some asshole also is using Charles’s name in the comments section there.

They’re trying anything to deflect attention away from the fact that racism is everywhere in the comments posted on their blogs.

356 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #325 Sharmuta

Yeah- Killgore’s the problem because he pointed out the racism. Just like Charles is the problem with the counter-jihad because he noticed the fascists.

Go ahead and condemn Killgore for being over the top. Never mind AP and Ed letting this go completely unrestrained for months and months on end.

I have not condemned him, but I was wondering whether he could have accomplished the same thing by commenting there under a different name so it would not come back here.

357 Jack Burton  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:12pm

re: #325 Sharmuta

Yeah- Killgore’s the problem because he pointed out the racism. Just like Charles is the problem with the counter-jihad because he noticed the fascists.

Go ahead and condemn Killgore for being over the top. Never mind AP and Ed letting this go completely unrestrained for months and months on end.

This sounds a lot like saying “mobys were bad, until we did it”. Adopting the tactics of moonbats is supposed to be the main problem we have with “The Right” right now. I’ll drop the issue but I can’t help but feeling some hypocrisy slipped by us with a hall pass.

358 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:45pm
359 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:54pm

re: #346 unrealizedviewpoint

If some believe it’s okay for Killgore to utilize racist comments as the N-word (spelled in full, repeatedly) to effect change, then maybe threatening violence to effect change is okay.
/I think not.

your in the realm of the sureal

360 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 12:58:58pm

re: #347 Sharmuta

I have already stated I neither applaud nor condemn KT.

I’m a bit bothered, however, that KT is a bigger issue for some than the issue he was trying to address.

Very true. Some folks get very fixated on Killgore for some reason.

361 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:00:29pm

re: #340 bloodnok
Isn’t your online identity tied to LGF? Maybe its just me then. If that’s not good enough for you, oh well. Like I said, I’m done with the subject.

362 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:00:53pm

re: #359 albusteve

your in the realm of the sureal

I’m glad you’re back. Hope you’re okay and stay okay.

363 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #347 Sharmuta

Ah, but that’s not the case, I don’t think. People have been expressing their dismay at his method.

Not having seen the HotAir thread, not knowing precisely what provoked KT, not having seen what he wrote, I am relying on the fact that the people who have been addressing this incident are either saying, “It was a good method, because it produced a change” or, “It may have produced change, but the method was extraordinarily distasteful, and shouldn’t have been used.”

KT’s motive was clear, and I don’t believe anyone can disagree with it. I certainly don’t.

This is not about a personality, it’s about an action.

364 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:01:58pm

re: #362 unrealizedviewpoint

I’m glad you’re back. Hope you’re okay and stay okay.

thanks…time will tell

365 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:02:19pm

re: #283 Ziggy

I think that would be promoting a specific religion. The country, as I understand it anyway, was founded on Judeo/Christian values. The 10 commandments is a part of both religions and is a moral guide for people and I could give a crap if a judge had it in his courthouse or not.

Our constitution was grounded just as much in Enlightnement values as it was in Judeo-Christian ones. And Enlightenment values are rooted in the philosophy of the Romans and Greeks - and they were Pagan, not Christian.

366 SpaceJesus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:02:41pm

re: #358 MikeySDCA

duerfen

[Link: www.wordreference.com…]

darf is used in this context the same way we use the word ‘may’ in english.

367 vxbush  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:02:43pm

re: #344 SixDegrees

It’s a violation because it is put there by the government, and represents an implicit endorsement by the government.

There’s no prohibition on private groups erecting private monuments on private property. It won’t fly on public property for the reason already given - it’s an implicit endorsement by the government of what the monument represents - and in fact this has been upheld any number of times by a whole variety of courts.

So what about after-school Bible Clubs that happen to meet on school grounds? Are those considered a promotion of religion? (Insert islamic club, wiccan club, or whatever if you don’t want to use Bible club.)

368 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:03:10pm
369 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:03:55pm

re: #356 Spare O’Lake

I have not condemned him, but I was wondering whether he could have accomplished the same thing by commenting there under a different name so it would not come back here.

That would have been…interesting. I think, though, that it would have led to more issues later.

370 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:04:08pm
371 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:04:09pm

re: #356 Spare O’Lake

I have not condemned him, but I was wondering whether he could have accomplished the same thing by commenting there under a different name so it would not come back here.

Anyone?

372 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:04:41pm

re: #357 ArchangelMichael

This sounds a lot like saying “mobys were bad, until we did it”. Adopting the tactics of moonbats is supposed to be the main problem we have with “The Right” right now. I’ll drop the issue but I can’t help but feeling some hypocrisy slipped by us with a hall pass.

Exactly!

373 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:06:53pm

re: #363 Dianna

I believe beating people up is wrong. If I think there’s too much beating people up going on, should I go out and beat a few people up, just to make the point that beating people up is wrong?

374 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:35pm

re: #312 Charles

Do you think any action would have been taken without it?

Impossible to say. That’s the trouble with this “experiment” - no controls.

I do know that there’s been at least a flurry of emails directed to Hot Air in the last couple of weeks about the sewer their comment section has become. And a good number of the gobbets floating around in that sewer had already made mention that they were being “persecuted” by “the MSM” for racism. So there were already other factors in play.

Could have been Kilgore. Could have been one of these other factors. Could have been the confluence of all of them. Or even something else altogether. There’s just no way to be certain. At best, all that can be done is to speculate.

375 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:51pm

re: #365 Salamantis

Our constitution was grounded just as much in Enlightnement values as it was in Judeo-Christian ones. And Enlightenment values are rooted in the philosophy of the Romans and Greeks - and they were Pagan, not Christian.

But they were greatly influenced by them.

I got to go, the kids are on the way up the drive and we have to roll. It’s certainly been an interesting thread, I hope everyone has a great Friday Night…even the godless lizards.
/

376 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:55pm

re: #371 Spare O’Lake

I have not condemned him, but I was wondering whether he could have accomplished the same thing by commenting there under a different name so it would not come back here.

A white-hooded sockpuppet would be worse IMO.

377 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:39pm

re: #373 cliffster

I believe beating people up is wrong. If I think there’s too much beating people up going on, should I go out and beat a few people up, just to make the point that beating people up is wrong?

Method is the issue, not the motive. I said that, oh, about eight times.

Your example is, of course, precisely the point people have been making.

378 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:47pm

re: #375 Ziggy

But they were greatly influenced by them.

I got to go, the kids are on the way up the drive and we have to roll. It’s certainly been an interesting thread, I hope everyone has a great Friday Night…even the godless lizards.
/

Along with many other historical documents. You wont find much about democracy in the bible if memory serves me correctly.

379 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:26pm
380 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:33pm

re: #373 cliffster

I believe beating people up is wrong. If I think there’s too much beating people up going on, should I go out and beat a few people up, just to make the point that beating people up is wrong?

blog posting has nothing to do with physical violence…you are really reaching

381 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #378 McSpiff

Along with many other historical documents. You wont find much about democracy in the bible if memory serves me correctly.

To my knowledge, you are absolutely correct. Have a great weekend.

382 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #381 Ziggy

To my knowledge, you are absolutely correct. Have a great weekend.

You too, looks like it might be one of the last summer ones around here.

383 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:10pm

re: #378 McSpiff

Along with many other historical documents. You wont find much about democracy in the bible if memory serves me correctly.

Nope. Democracy (from the Greek philosopher Democritus) and republic (Plato wrote a book with that title) are both words with Latin roots.

384 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:54pm

re: #382 McSpiff

You too, looks like it might be one of the last summer ones around here.


That’s alright, I’m looking forward to ski season

Peace out y’all

385 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:41pm

re: #353 Ziggy

Look dude, I never said it was legal documents. It was a damn piece of art work that offended some frigging ACLU type. Some people are just to sensitive and can’t turn the other cheek. (that was a joke, btw)

It’s a religious document commanding adherence to one particular God - that’s how it begins, in fact.

You’d be howling to learn that a Muslim judge had nailed up passages from the Koran behind his bench. Imagine how a Buddhist or Jainite or Moslem or Hindu or atheist feels seeing ““I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before Me” plastered above the judge’s shoulder while hearing their case.

And it doesn’t matter who files the complaint - it’s been upheld by the Supreme Court. You know - that thing that’s part of the government you’re claiming to uphold. Except when it attempts to uphold it’s own governing documents, that is.

386 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:45pm

re: #383 Salamantis

Or Greek roots.

387 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:47pm
388 Land Shark  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:07pm

re: #365 Salamantis

Our constitution was grounded just as much in Enlightnement values as it was in Judeo-Christian ones. And Enlightenment values are rooted in the philosophy of the Romans and Greeks - and they were Pagan, not Christian.

Very true. Not only that, the separation of church and state really benefits religion the most, since it means that:

A- The government can’t declare an “official religion of the state”
B- Treats all religions the same
C- Protects religions from having the state impose or tell them to do anything

389 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:20pm

re: #380 albusteve

blog posting has nothing to do with physical violence…you are really reaching

So you’re saying that because it doesn’t actually hurt anybody like physical violence does, it’s ok? By exension, you’re saying that no matter what you post, it doesn’t hurt anybody. So what’s wrong with anything that anyone posts? That obviously isn’t how you feel, so no I’m not reaching

390 ~Fianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:48pm

This is an interesting poll on activist religious affiliations: [Link: www.publicreligion.org…]

391 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:57pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Sounds like a lovely group of people. The cross burnings must be just grand.

I think they’re trying to correct the misperceptions of Texas that appear in comedy shows like this:

392 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:24pm

re: #373 cliffster

I believe beating people up is wrong. If I think there’s too much beating people up going on, should I go out and beat a few people up, just to make the point that beating people up is wrong?

This is more like a beating is taking place and to bring attention to it someone goes out and commits murder, all the while pointing to the beating.

393 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:24pm
394 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:40pm

re: #387 MikeySDCA

Sorry, democracy is Greek.

[Link: education.yahoo.com…]

Right you are - before it was Latin.

395 Ziggy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:15:42pm

re: #385 SixDegrees

It’s a religious document commanding adherence to one particular God - that’s how it begins, in fact.

You’d be howling to learn that a Muslim judge had nailed up passages from the Koran behind his bench. Imagine how a Buddhist or Jainite or Moslem or Hindu or atheist feels seeing ““I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before Me” plastered above the judge’s shoulder while hearing their case.
And it doesn’t matter who files the complaint - it’s been upheld by the Supreme Court. You know - that thing that’s part of the government you’re claiming to uphold. Except when it attempts to uphold it’s own governing documents, that is.

I will concede those points, now I REALLY have to go. It’s lile Al Pacino in God Father III, every time I try to get out they pull me back in. I even hope you have great weekend to, six.

396 bloodnok  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:16:53pm

re: #361 snowcrash

Isn’t your online identity tied to LGF? Maybe its just me then. If that’s not good enough for you, oh well. Like I said, I’m done with the subject.

I don’t consider knocks on my online identity (whatever that is) to impact me personally in any way. There are and will continue to be superficial people out there who will think they know people because they see their nick and avatar on a regular basis. And they will get things wrong. I can live with that. There’s too much real life out there to care about that.

397 Pianobuff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:19pm

I haven’t seen KT’s comment as it’s probably been cleaned up. However, I do remember a poster in the last few days promoting an experiment to carry around a pretty ugly sign with the ‘n’ word at a tea party.

Is this sort of what happened over at HA?

398 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:18:02pm

re: #367 vxbush

So what about after-school Bible Clubs that happen to meet on school grounds? Are those considered a promotion of religion? (Insert islamic club, wiccan club, or whatever if you don’t want to use Bible club.)

I believe this has also been ruled on by the courts. As I recall, it’s fine to rent (not donate) the space to groups as long as meetings take place outside of school hours and the space is made available to all under the same terms. Religious services are not permitted. The trend, however, is toward the disallowal of such activities for all, but this is due more to liability concerns than Constitutional issues.

Similar rulings apply to the display of Christmas creches, requiring them to display a vast plethora of religious and other paraphenalia in order to pass legal muster. This is an imperfect solution, and the trend is towards complete rejection of such displays on public property.

399 Fenris  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:19:16pm

Am I ever glad I graduated from high school three years before this whole mess. What particularly frightens me is that this is likely to cause a backlash in higher education, which even in Houston is freakishly leftist.

400 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:16pm

re: #399 fenrisdesigns

Am I ever glad I graduated from high school three years before this whole mess. What particularly frightens me is that this is likely to cause a backlash in higher education, which even in Houston is freakishly leftist.

Im just glad to have graduated high school three years ago in general ;-)

401 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:16pm
402 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:42pm

re: #337 Dianna

My German’s non-existent, barring a few songs. What?

What may satire do?

Everything.

403 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:21:22pm

re: #393 MikeySDCA

Which, for many of the Framers, was exactly the point.

Correct. They had seen first hand the corruption and abuse that came along with state-sponsored religions back in Merry Old England, and also within many of the early colonies. They were appalled enough by such excesses to place their prohibition first and foremost among the Bill of Rights.

404 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:21:34pm

re: #389 cliffster

So you’re saying that because it doesn’t actually hurt anybody like physical violence does, it’s ok? By exension, you’re saying that no matter what you post, it doesn’t hurt anybody. So what’s wrong with anything that anyone posts? That obviously isn’t how you feel, so no I’m not reaching

it’s up to the host to determine what’s okay…the whole point of the exercise

405 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #392 unrealizedviewpoint

This is more like a beating is taking place and to bring attention to it someone goes out and commits murder, all the while pointing to the beating.

You’re losing it, man.

406 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:59pm

re: #405 Cato the Elder

You’re losing it, man.

not in the face!…

407 Fenris  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:24:24pm

OT: Wow, this site works way faster on a G5 than it does on my beat-up old Celeron.

408 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:24:33pm

re: #401 MikeySDCA

You guys are always handing out books near my university. Pretty down to earth guys, always good to chat with. Western heritage is largely one sect of Christianity trying to wipe out another. So its not necessarily the creche, but who gets to erect it, etc.

Even in terms of crosses…check out whats approved for military cemeteries [Link: www.cem.va.gov…] . Never under estimate the ability for any basic christian symbol to divide.

409 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:26pm

On this matter, if Charles is OK with it, so am I.

410 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:49pm
411 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #401 MikeySDCA

Which I think is a pity. As a Hare Krsna Hindu, I have no problem with a creche in the park. That is a part of the Western heritage.

It is also a religious edifice, and the state shouldn’t be erecting it.

There are plenty of churches with front lawns. Nothing prevents them from erecting such displays, containing whatever they see fit.

You do make a good point about historical significance, and I have offered this solution to creationists in the past: instead of promoting your religion in science classes, I’ll work with you to establish a comparative religion course in the schools that examines the major tenets of, say, the world’s ten largest religions, comparing their major beliefs with one another, and perhaps adding others that are significantly different just for the sake of completeness.

This simple, rational proposal is invariably met with howls of protest, especially as it dawns on the IDers that their own peculiar perversion of Christianity might not compare very favorably at all with others, especially if presented objectively. And, of course, there’s the problem of evolution being de debil’s work and all.

412 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:28:55pm

re: #408 McSpiff

You guys are always handing out books near my university. Pretty down to earth guys, always good to chat with. Western heritage is largely one sect of Christianity trying to wipe out another. So its not necessarily the creche, but who gets to erect it, etc.

Even in terms of crosses…check out whats approved for military cemeteries [Link: www.cem.va.gov…] . Never under estimate the ability for any basic christian symbol to divide.

To me that list says tolerance, not divisiveness.

And you talk as if division and war were some kind of Christian/Western specialty. What nonsense.

413 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:29:51pm

re: #405 Cato the Elder

You’re losing it, man.

One with an OCD on spelling and punctuation on a blog post claims I’m losing it. Wow!

414 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:31:55pm

re: #413 unrealizedviewpoint

One with an OCD on spelling and punctuation on a blog post claims I’m losing it. Wow!

Check your perseveration.

You just keep proving it over and over.

415 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:34:36pm

re: #414 Cato the Elder

Check your perseveration.

You just keep proving it over and over.

I used to have a bipolar friend (had to move him out of my life), had OCD too, who like you, was a friend one day then turned against me the next. Not just once but repeatedly. Exactly what you do to me and others here. Have you been diagnosed.

416 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:32pm

re: #415 unrealizedviewpoint

I used to have a bipolar friend (had to move him out of my life), had OCD too, who like you, was a friend one day then turned against me the next. Not just once but repeatedly. Exactly what you do to me and others here. Have you been diagnosed.

Have you been checked for paranoia?

I’m not against you. I’m calling you out on your idiotic obsession with what KT did.

And trying to diagnose someone on a blog is just silly. I see perseveration, but I wouldn’t presume to say you have OCD or whatever. Symptoms do not equal diagnoses. And calling you a jerk is not a medical judgment.

If you want to move me out of your life, it’s called scrollover. And if you want to move on to another topic, you’ll get no heat from me.

Notice I haven’t really bothered to downding you over this? It’s because it’s not worth a mouse-click.

417 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:50pm

re: #412 Cato the Elder

To me that list says tolerance, not divisiveness.

And you talk as if division and war were some kind of Christian/Western specialty. What nonsense.

I think you totally missed my point. It’s great to say “A large part of Western history is based on christianity. Lets recognize that once a year.” For my family, thats been Roman Catholicism for hundreds of years. Letting the church of England erect a monument ignores the contribution of the Roman Catholic church. Repeat ad nuesum.

In general, theres no way to erect such a monument without bias. That was my point.

To your last point, well I’m at a loss for words. My point was that there is no single unified western heritage, and thats its history is largely bloody. Just because I can admit christian european states have fought does not mean I somehow think thats unique.

418 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:41:46pm

re: #417 McSpiff

I think you totally missed my point.

Probably.

419 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:42:54pm

re: #418 Cato the Elder

But as a Roman myself, I would be interested to know what “nuesum” is…

420 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:44:35pm

re: #419 Cato the Elder

nauseum. I apologize.

421 unrealizedviewpoint  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:24pm

re: #420 McSpiff

nauseum. I apologize.

Don’t feed him by apologizing.
/

422 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:46:46pm

re: #420 McSpiff

nauseum. I apologize.

It’s actually nauseam.

423 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:48:47pm

re: #422 Cato the Elder

It’s actually nauseam.

Well Cato, you’ve completely addressed all my points. Thank you for this enlightening discussion on how we should view the complex history of the last 2000 years. O wait. You corrected my latin spelling. Either way, I hope you got as much from this as I have.

424 Cato the Elder  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:49:53pm

re: #423 McSpiff

Well Cato, you’ve completely addressed all my points. Thank you for this enlightening discussion on how we should view the complex history of the last 2000 years. O wait. You corrected my latin spelling. Either way, I hope you got as much from this as I have.

Absolutely. Probably more.

425 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:55:39pm

re: #250 Ziggy

I read it as the government shall not establishing a state religion, as in you must practice x, y or z. You can practice anything you want or nothing at all.

Let’s just say that for some reason, Wicca becomes practiced by a majority of Americans. In their efforts, ‘so mote it be’ becomes appended on the end of the Pledge of Allegiance. While it’s not a “Big” deal to any Wiccan, after all, it’s just their way of ending a prayer. anyone who is not a member of that religion will very likely feel that Wicca is being singled out as a ‘favored’ religion. but, the Wiccan’s would point out that’s anyone can view it as meaning ‘their’ God/Goddess, and they don’t *have* to take it generically as “establishing” Wicca as a favored religion. However anyone who isn’t Wiccan isn’t going to buy what they’re selling.

In other words, you may think it’s a little thing, but it’s the little things that can make things a little tougher, make a person feel less welcome, make a person feel less like they can get equal treatment under the law.

And what happens as people feel like they can get away with the little things? Now imagine that Wicca decides that Handfasting is the only real way to get married and the only thing that will be recognized under law. Can you imagine the outrage from the Christian minorities in that case?

The point I’m trying to make here, there is no good way to permit any religion to mix in with government, not if you want to keep the government impartial towards a diverse group of citizens.

(my apologies for any misrepresentation of Wicca, I’m simply using it as an example to try and demonstrate a point.)

426 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:58:13pm

re: #399 fenrisdesigns

Am I ever glad I graduated from high school three years before this whole mess. What particularly frightens me is that this is likely to cause a backlash in higher education, which even in Houston is freakishly leftist.

Professors in the sciences were politically pretty neutral 20-25 years ago when I was in school. They remarked only rarely on politics and were pretty moderate in their opinions…and then the KS board of education started their anti-evolution nonsense, and that started to change. Now even science professors lean left, especiallly in the biological sciences. I see it as a direct response to the rise of the activist fundamentalists and their attempts to take over science and other education.

Do conservatives have a point when they pound on the freakish leftism found in many liberal arts fields on campuses? Yes. Is/was the proper response to adopt ridiculous post-modern methods in an attempt to promote “other ways of thinking” in the hard sciences?

NO, obviously.

427 Throbert McGee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:08:14pm

re: #283 Ziggy

I think that would be promoting a specific religion. The country, as I understand it anyway, was founded on Judeo/Christian values. The 10 commandments is a part of both religions and is a moral guide for people and I could give a crap if a judge had it in his courthouse or not.

Problem with singling out the 10 Commandments with a place of honor in a courthouse is that the first three the first four everything before “honor thy mother and father” refers narrowly and specifically to the worship of a specific deity. One of these first few Commandments would appear to criminalize blasphemous speech, which runs massively afoul of U.S. legal tradition, and another appears to require blue laws.

428 ~Fianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:52pm

re: #425 bloodstar

Let’s just say that for some reason, Wicca becomes practiced by a majority of Americans. In their efforts, ‘so mote it be’ becomes appended on the end of the Pledge of Allegiance. While it’s not a “Big” deal to any Wiccan, after all, it’s just their way of ending a prayer. anyone who is not a member of that religion will very likely feel that Wicca is being singled out as a ‘favored’ religion. but, the Wiccan’s would point out that’s anyone can view it as meaning ‘their’ God/Goddess, and they don’t *have* to take it generically as “establishing” Wicca as a favored religion. However anyone who isn’t Wiccan isn’t going to buy what they’re selling.

In other words, you may think it’s a little thing, but it’s the little things that can make things a little tougher, make a person feel less welcome, make a person feel less like they can get equal treatment under the law.

And what happens as people feel like they can get away with the little things? Now imagine that Wicca decides that Handfasting is the only real way to get married and the only thing that will be recognized under law. Can you imagine the outrage from the Christian minorities in that case?

The point I’m trying to make here, there is no good way to permit any religion to mix in with government, not if you want to keep the government impartial towards a diverse group of citizens.

(my apologies for any misrepresentation of Wicca, I’m simply using it as an example to try and demonstrate a point.)

Excellent point and well-presented!

As a non-JudeoChristian, I do recognize that my culture is very deeply informed and motivated by Judeo-Christianity, but I’m very, very uncomfortable by how much Christianity is attempting to sort of muscle in and make itself part of everyone’s daily life.

Part of me doesn’t mind the 10 Commandments being posted, because really, they’re just 10 Really Good Ideas (even the first one - if you can keep it non-particular-god-specific, I agree with the fact that people should, in general, pick something that they believe in and actually believe in it, whether it’s Jesus, G-d, Krishna, Gaia or Universal Human Rights and the Dignity of All People). However, a lot of the people who are pushing for this stuff aren’t benign. Charles has talked a lot about the wedge strategy and that’s part and parcel of all this stuff. If they can get people to accept a little move that looks reasonable, they can then pitch their next move as the next reasonable, logical step… And 30 years from now, that could go someplace very against what we’re supposed to stand for as a nation.

429 zelnaga  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:11pm

re: #140 Charles

The amazing thing is that I were to open registration, about 50% of the flouncers would immediately try to register with a new name, just so they can flounce again.

Quick question about registration: I’ll sometimes talk about this site to friends and sometimes they want to sign up. Unfortunately, they don’t check it nearly as regularly as I do and usually miss registration opportunities.

My question is… can I register for them? On the surface, it might appear that such a registration is an attempt to create a sock puppet, since the IPs would match, but that wouldn’t be the intent.

Also, FTR, I don’t know how they’d conduct themselves here. In-person, they’re friendly enough. Online, however… I have no clue. Ordinarily, I’d say that if those accounts misbehave sufficiently, they could just be banned, but I don’t want to be banned, too, because of their posting habits…

430 Throbert McGee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:22:44pm

re: #385 SixDegrees

You’d be howling to learn that a Muslim judge had nailed up passages from the Koran behind his bench. Imagine how a Buddhist or Jainite or Moslem or Hindu or atheist feels seeing ““I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before Me” plastered above the judge’s shoulder while hearing their case.

A Moslem would presumably take it as a given that the God who gave Moses the 10 Commandments is identical with Allah, so no worries there!

As for the Buddhist, Hindu, etc., I have somewhat mixed feelings, despite my previous post (#427) about the 10 Commandments being problematic in a courthouse setting. While I believe in strict church/state separation, I also recognize that “ceremonial Deism” has a place in American political life going back to the Founding Fathers, and I insist that all Americans must respect this, regardless of their personal religious beliefs.

So I would argue that for an immigrant Hindu or a native-born atheist, learning not to be freaked out by the presence of a 10 Commandments bas-relief in a courtroom goes along with understanding the concept of “ceremonial Deism” — or, in other words, I somewhat support allowing the 10 Commandments in courthouses.

Of course, I’d prefer that the tablets be inscribed in Paleo-Hebrew (i.e., an extinct alphabet), so as to avoid the appearance of favoring the eevul Zionist Jooos, or better yet, just marked with the Roman numerals I to X, thus giving a simultaneous nod to the Judeo-Christian and the Greco-Roman roots of the American Enlightenment.

431 iceweasel  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:22:46pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

For the record, (not that my own personal opinion on this matters much), i fully support what KT did. If I were Charles, I’d have advised him against it, for obvious reasons— but does anyone really imagine that those were the first racist comments posted at HA, or that the thread was an anomaly there?

HA has a long history of tolerating such comments. It’s a pit. What KT did was embarrass them into acknowledging the problem, and it’s that embarrassment alone that is motivating them to finally clean up that sewage stream they think of as a commentariat (or at least SAY the right things about cleaning it up.) And it never would have happened otherwise.

KT snapped on the light and the cockroaches are scattering. The management of that No-Tell Motel known as HotAir has been forced to admit they’re in violation of the health codes and sanitary codes, that’s all. They have been for years.

Rock on, Killgore!

432 Throbert McGee  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:32:37pm

re: #431 iceweasel

Upding to this for the implicit acknowledgment from a lefty that Hot Air was and can be again a place worth visiting even if you disagree with its politics.

433 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:42:14pm

re: #432 Throbert McGee

Upding to this for the implicit acknowledgment from a lefty that Hot Air was and can be again a place worth visiting even if you disagree with its politics.

Instead of hateful comments about Michelle Obama, now they’re allowing a flood of hateful sick comments about … me!

Much better.

434 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:22:28pm
435 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:23:20pm

Just piss off.

436 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:24:33pm

What kind of libertarian wants religion in public schools? What a crock.


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