Denver Man Admits Al Qaeda Ties

US News • Views: 4,222

Things are finally starting to break open in the case of the alleged New York bombing plot: NYC Terror Plot Suspect Admits al Qaeda Ties, Official Says.

The Denver man at the center of an alleged New York bomb plot, Najibullah Zazi, has admitted he has ties to al Qaeda and is in negotiations to plead guilty to a terror charge, a senior law enforcement official told ABC News.

Najibullah Zazi declines to answer questions after meeting with FBI in Denver.
The official said Zazi had received explosives training and his possible guilty plea would be part of a deal to cooperate with the government.

The 24-year old Zazi had insisted he had “no ties, no connection to al Qaeda” in interviews with reporters earlier this week after his name surfaced in connection with the investigation.

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358 comments
1 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:35pm

Nope, no ties. Well OK, a few course on explosives. Oh, and that seminar on kidnappings, but other than that no ties at all. Wait, forgot about the ropes course with the Muslim Brotherhood last fall.

2 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:36pm

Are we allowed to mention RoP anymore?

3 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:07:41pm

i guess obama had to let one of his friends get caught to keep up the facade

4 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:34pm

*facepalm

Please tell me what was just posted wasn't just posted.

5 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:39pm

But I thought that in our post-racial America that now had the world's love and respect, that terrorism, I'm sorry, man-made disasters were no longer issues we had to worry about. Glad they got the bastard and hope they get the next one(s), too.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:53pm

Wow.

7 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:08:55pm

thanks to the the investigators and law enforcement authorities for nailing this guy.

8 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:04pm

Or is it really the Rop now? I'm not familiar with the new protocols.

9 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:31pm

So first he Zazi had no links to Al Qaeda, and now he Zazi did. Looks like Najibullah was fulla bullah.

10 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

*facepalm

Please tell me what was just posted wasn't just posted.

I can't do that. Because it was posted.

11 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:09:51pm

re: #8 Guy_Montag

If you're going to flounce, just do it.

12 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:10:31pm

re: #10 Drogheda

I can't do that. Because it was posted.

I TOLD YOU NOT TO TELL ME!

13 teleskiguy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:10:47pm

Being a native of the state of Colorado, this state does have a way of radicalizing people. Though most of the terror shit that goes down is purely local, with names like James Blanning, Marvin Heemeyer, Eric Harris and the like. al-Qaida in Colorado, however, is troubling for sure. I mean, if I were a terrorist, I'd hide out in towns like Steamboat Springs, Silverton, or Crested Butte. No one would even know what you were up to. Read about Neil Murdoch.

14 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:10:48pm

re: #11 Charles
What's flounce?

15 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:11pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

*facepalm

Please tell me what was just posted wasn't just posted.

I wish I could. I saw it, too.

16 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:23pm

The guy was 16 when 9/11 happened.

17 experiencedtraveller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:34pm

The ideology underlying al queda has been around for a looong time. It will not go away any time soon.

18 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:37pm

re: #2 Guy_Montag

re: #3 philosophus invidius

re: #8 Guy_Montag

Fuck the two of you. Assholes.

19 S'latch  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:11:37pm

Oh boy.

20 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:05pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

This is one of those rare occasions when I use the down ding button. That was not cool.

21 Picayune  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:35pm

Way to go, guys, stay vigilant. This could prove to be a bonanza of inside intel/info on potential "man-made events" on the boards, or in the works.

22 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:12:54pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

Excuse me? You appear hostile. Would you care to explain your emotional outburst?

23 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:05pm

...

24 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:42pm

/irony

25 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:48pm

re: #13 teleskiguy

Being a native of the state of Colorado, this state does have a way of radicalizing people. Though most of the terror shit that goes down is purely local, with names like James Blanning, Marvin Heemeyer, Eric Harris and the like. al-Qaida in Colorado, however, is troubling for sure. I mean, if I were a terrorist, I'd hide out in towns like Steamboat Springs, Silverton, or Crested Butte. No one would even know what you were up to. Read about Neil Murdoch.


I think it may have something to do with the wildly disportionate number of Subarus that exist in the Denver metro. I have been all over the US and have never seen so many Outbacks, Imprezas, and Forresters than in that city.

26 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:13:56pm

re: #22 Guy_Montag

You can cram your LGF hater talking points up your ass.

27 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:06pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

re: #3 philosophus invidius

re: #8 Guy_Montag

Fuck the two of you. Assholes.

Only the second time but once again... Smurfette poking Dorky and Flouncy smurf in the chest saying "Fuck the two of you. Assholes."

Classic.

28 snowcrash  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:20pm

There was some speculation that the Denver suspect had several identical black backpacks in his apartment. I will check for a link. That is how Madrid and London attacks were carried out.

29 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:32pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

*facepalm

Please tell me what was just posted wasn't just posted.

I respectfully say that I am very sorry to tell you that yes, what you saw posted was posted. I suspect that, odd as it may seem, there will be more than one flounce in this thread.

30 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:33pm
philosophus invidius

(Logged in)
Registered since: Jul 13, 2004 at 5:52 am
No. of comments posted: 78
No. of links posted: 6

Looks like a sock to me.

31 teleskiguy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:35pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

re: #2 Guy_Montag

You guys don't deserve to comment on this blog. You're hateful little people. Charles, where's Stinky?!?

32 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:47pm

re: #24 philosophus invidius

Sure.

I believe you. As a madman a madman, and a drunkard a drunkard.

/

No, actually, I don't believe that was irony.

33 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:14:50pm

Let us not go to sleep.

34 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:15:02pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Your very hostile.

35 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:15:27pm

to the people who are currently being banged around, we tend to police each other on the board, which keeps the discourse on a fairly high level. so if you're into cheap shots or knee jerk prejudice, expect to be called on it.

36 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:15:45pm

re: #29 Honorary Yooper

I respectfully say that I am very sorry to tell you that yes, what you saw posted was posted. I suspect that, odd as it may seem, there will be more than one flounce in this thread.

But I gave them the proper form back in the last thread! WHY CAN'T THEY USE THE FORM?

37 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:16:16pm

re: #2 Guy_Montag

RoP.

38 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:16:49pm

re: #34 Guy_Montag

And I don't buy your innocent routine.

39 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:16:50pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

Man, I step away from my desk for a little while, and come back to that... astounding.

40 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:16:59pm

re: #28 snowcrash

There was some speculation that the Denver suspect had several identical black backpacks in his apartment. I will check for a link. That is how Madrid and London attacks were carried out.

I had heard on the news something like 12 backpacks. Maybe he was a really, really, really, really, really avid hiker who got a heck of a deal of backpacks at WalMart or something. Or maybe not...

41 sngnsgt  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:00pm

I guess the air at that elevation really is that thin.

42 wiffersnapper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:20pm

Glad they caught this guy. And in my home-state no less!

43 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:46pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But I gave them the proper form back in the last thread! WHY CAN'T THEY USE THE FORM?

Because each flouncer likes to show off how special he or she is in his or her very own special way.

Never mind that it gets eaten by Stinky.

44 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:47pm

On topic: Why do we even know about this? Shouldn't the FBI's statements on ongoing investigations generally be "no comment"?

45 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #40 endotoxin

Why are you downding me?

46 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:18:18pm

re: #33 Ojoe

Let us not go to sleep.

And equally important -- let's not be taken in by haters and fear mongers.

47 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:18:37pm

I find myself wondering if the timing of the raids in NYC Monday morning were in any way related to OBL's promise of a "Ramadan gift" earlier this month.

48 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:19:18pm

re: #45 Sharmuta

Why are you downding me?

neutralized

49 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:19:34pm

re: #46 Charles

Yes. Effective action comes from a balanced view of reality.

50 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:19:59pm

re: #45 Sharmuta

Didn't feel that an F-bomb was doing much to elevate discourse.

51 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #46 Charles

And equally important -- let's not be taken in by haters and fear mongers.

That is a WHOLE lot harder than not going to sleep. Fear... the ultimate manipulation tool.

52 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:24pm

re: #50 endotoxin

But snide comments about our host does that?

53 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:20:39pm

re: #50 endotoxin

Didn't feel that an F-bomb was doing much to elevate discourse.

Yea but it was funny.

54 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:21:32pm

Which snide comment, the "are we allowed to mention the ROP anymore"?

55 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:21:49pm

So a lib acquaintence of mine just posted an anti tea party post at his facebook.
I comment that it is sad to see the right use the same tactics as the left. Then I directed him to Zombie's blog. I also said that Zombies link in no way excuses the 'tea partier' stupidity.

Here is this acquaintence's response:

You mean like protesting the invasion of Iraq and yelling things like "You Lie!", "Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11!", "Iraq had no WMDs!"...oops, all those were actually true.

I looked over the first few links on the site [sic] and didn't see any untrue statements. Maybe you are referring to "Jews Are Terrorists". Might want to check out the latest findings from the U.N. on Israel's actions in the latest war in Gaza.

This one has a 'ph.d' no less...

56 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:22:06pm

re: #45 Sharmuta

Why are you downding me?

I wish I could see who "down-dings" me, I'd give them a high five. God knows I could use a good old fashioned down-dinging.

57 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:22:07pm

re: #50 endotoxin

Didn't feel that an F-bomb was doing much to elevate discourse.

there are f bombs and there are f bombs ... you gotta know the difference ...

Hoosier Hoops can give you a course on their proper use ...

58 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:22:44pm

re: #56 Equable

Just click the digit- it shows who the dingers are.

59 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:22:52pm

Besides, I am not too worried about Charles not being able to take care of himself or take out the garbage when the time to do so comes. One of the great things about his site, IMHO.

60 Picayune  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:22:57pm

re: #47 Drogheda

The FBI/NYC Police went into overdrive investigating this issue, earlier this week, because the world will be in NYC next week for the big UN confab, pow wows, and photo ops, with a who's who list of leading scoundrels. Could be, but glad the good guys jumped on this double-time.

61 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #56 Equable

I wish I could see who "down-dings" me, I'd give them a high five. God knows I could use a good old fashioned down-dinging.

you can ...

62 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:10pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

Just click the digit- it shows who the dingers are.

Bitchin'!

63 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:32pm

re: #62 Equable

I'm here to help. ;)

64 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:49pm

Man I wish I could down-ding myself for being an ignorant twat who can't be bothered to figure this stuff out for himself!

;-)

65 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:23:55pm

Lots of hatred and vile comments being directed at me in that thread at Hot Air, by the way.

And they've put LGF in their 'Left Channels' section now.

Time to remove the link to Hot Air from LGF.

66 Neutral President  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:24:30pm

re: #50 endotoxin

Didn't feel that an F-bomb was doing much to elevate discourse.

But being a snarky passive aggressive jackass does?

67 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:24:57pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

I'm a little confused. Am I supposed to say something nice about the supremacist medieval cult of Islam? Transcendentalist eschatology deserves disdain, ridicule, and opposition.

68 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:25:25pm

re: #65 Charles

Damn, I hate seeing the right go Daily Kos.

69 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:25:50pm

re: #66 ArchangelMichael

But being a snarky passive aggressive jackass does?

You don't know me.

70 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:01pm

re: #67 Guy_Montag

bye

71 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:15pm

I smell sock puppets. Three in fact.

72 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:15pm

re: #67 Guy_Montag

They make cool onion domes, & minarets, and they have really cool calligraphy, and the Alhambra in Spain is a masterpiece.

BBL

73 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:26:20pm

re: #55 Oh no...Sand People!

This one has a 'ph.d' no less...

That's because in this case it's just an abbreviation for "pinhead".

74 filetandrelease  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:02pm
has admitted he has ties to al Qaeda and is in negotiations to plead guilty to a terror charge

And maybe spilling intel? No water boarding? The guys are getting better.

75 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:05pm

re: #71 Gus 802

I smell sock puppets. Three in fact.

The other one is probably stuck in the dryer.

76 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:12pm

re: #34 Guy_Montag

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Your very hostile.

It is normal and natural to feel hostimity towards assholes.

You're an asshole.

77 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:44pm

re: #56 Equable

I wish I could see who "down-dings" me, I'd give them a high five. God knows I could use a good old fashioned down-dinging.

Your wish is my command. High Five!

/I do it out of respect!

78 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:27:56pm

re: #75 CyanSnowHawk

The other one is probably stuck in the dryer.

Or maybe behind it.

79 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:28:44pm

re: #75 CyanSnowHawk

The other one is probably stuck in the dryer.

Yeah, stuck in the dryer since 2004 and finally came out early this month.

80 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:28:45pm

...

81 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:28:56pm

re: #77 MrSilverDragon

Thank you, thank you.

82 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:28:58pm

re: #67 Guy_Montag

You must think I'm stupid if you think I didn't catch what you were trying to do with your "new protocols" snark.

83 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:29:20pm

One for you too, then.

84 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:29:32pm

re: #80 Locker

...

Reply not quote.
Reply not quote.
Reply not quote.

Someday I'll get it when responding to inflammatory statements.

85 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:30:08pm

If you see three dots instead of your comment -- it's usually because you messed up an HTML tag. That's what the Preview button is for...

86 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:30:38pm

re: #84 Locker

Reply not quote.
Reply not quote.
Reply not quote.

Someday I'll get it when responding to inflammatory statements.

"Reply" makes Stinky's job easier. He gets paid way too much overtime right now.

87 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:30:44pm

re: #83 endotoxin

One for you too, then.

If you're gonna downding everyone who downdinged your #3, you're gonna get carpal tunnel and a finger cramp.

88 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:31:29pm

re: #87 Salamantis

If you're gonna downding everyone who downdinged your #3, you're gonna get carpal tunnel and a finger cramp.

Opps; sorry - that wasn't you.

89 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:31:36pm

Lots of roaches coming out.

90 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:32:06pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Lots of roaches coming out.

Always happens when you move a major appliance and turn the light on.

91 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:32:27pm

re: #82 Sharmuta

Is snark no longer allowed? There's a difference between blasphemy and heresy. I really love Plan 9 from Outer Space, but you're more then welcome to skewer it. All I ask: be entertaining.

92 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:32:51pm

re: #87 Salamantis

No, just the folks who think I am someone else's sockpuppet.

93 John Neverbend  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:33:51pm

re: #72 Ojoe

and the Alhambra in Spain is a masterpiece.

It certainly is that. I felt quite inspired after my visit there.

94 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:33:55pm

re: #91 Guy_Montag

By all means- please elaborate on what you meant by "new protocols".

95 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:35:09pm

re: #91 Guy_Montag

Personally, I think you're better off just watching "Ed Wood", because at least that explains why Plan 9 was sooo bad.

96 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:36:38pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

Those who are quick to take umbrage, at the slightest provocation, tend to sit upon foundations built of sand.

Plan 9 from Outer Space is a masterpiece of modern cinema.

97 subsailor68  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:36:46pm

Well all, must go. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend, and that my Jewish friends have a happy, prosperous, and fulfilling New Year!

98 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:38:23pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

[Link: www.google.com...]

Definitions of invidious on the Web:

discriminatory: containing or implying a slight or showing prejudice; "discriminatory attitudes and practices"; "invidious comparisons"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Envy (also called invidiousness) may be defined as an emotion that "occurs when a person lacks another’s [perceived] superior quality, achievement, or possession and either desires it or wishes that the other lacked it."Parrott, W. G., & Smith, R. H. (1993). And belongs to Ami. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invidious

Envious; causing or arising from envy; Enviable; desirable; Prompted by or expressing or adapted to excite envious dislike or ill will; offensively or unfairly discriminating; Hateful; odious; detestable
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/invidious

invidiously - in a manner arousing resentment
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

invidiously - In an invidious manner
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/invidiously

invidiousness - Malevolent provocation of dislike or resentment; the state or quality of being invidious
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/invidiousness

envious; provoking evil
www.eldritchdark.com/articles/criticism/69/a-glossary-for-the-fiction-of-clark-ashton-smith

Sal: Yep, that fits. At least you chose that part of your nick honestly. But I question the philosophus, as it comes from Philo Sophia, the love of wisdom. Which you quite obviously neither love nor possess.

99 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:39:36pm

re: #96 Guy_Montag

I'm not amused by your artful dodging. What did you mean by "new protocols"?

100 Killian Bundy  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:39:52pm

Khatami reportedly attacked with knife

In an apparent sign of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his ruling party flexing their muscles ahead of next week's UN General Assembly, the hard-line leader again denied the Holocaust, while two top reformists were attacked in Teheran.

The Saudi Al Arabiya network reported that Mohammad Khatami, a former president, was "attacked with a knife" during the rally by members of the Basij, a civilian militia loyal to the regime, and taken to hospital. The Jerusalem Post could not verify the report and the network provided no further details on Khatami's condition. Other media outlets did not report the knifing incident, but reported that Khatami was pushed to the ground and his turban fell from his head. Khatami is 65 years old.

/explosive if true

101 wrenchwench  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:46pm

re: #98 Salamantis

"Exegesis of a Nic." Nice.

102 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:51pm

A terrorist? Here? In the United States? Plotting to blow up the NY subways?

Really?

I guess we better speed up those CIA interrogation prosecutions before they get their hands on this low-life weasel.

Right.

.

103 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:52pm

There's still much unexplained about this case. The New York connections, which resulted in raids in Queens; the early disclosure by various agencies.

Glad to see that it's bearing fruit, but there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered at this point. I'll be watching, now that details are beginning to emerge, trying to figure out just what was going down here.

104 MJ  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:40:56pm

Irving Kristol, Godfather of Modern Conservatism, Dies

Irving Kristol, the political commentator who, as much as anyone, defined modern conservatism and helped revitalize the Republican Party in the late 1960s and early ’70s, setting the stage for the Reagan presidency and years of conservative dominance, died Friday in Arlington, Va. He was 89 and lived in Washington...

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

105 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:41:33pm

Michael Ledeen is liveblogging the events in Iran, but since he was unwise enough to do it from his Pajamas Media blog, I cannot link to it.

106 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:41:53pm

re: #103 SixDegrees

There's still much unexplained about this case. The New York connections, which resulted in raids in Queens; the early disclosure by various agencies.

Glad to see that it's bearing fruit, but there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered at this point. I'll be watching, now that details are beginning to emerge, trying to figure out just what was going down here.

Agreed. There's a lot about the way this case developed that doesn't smell right.

107 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:41:57pm

Has Hot Air said why they have LGF under "Left Channels"?

And it doesn't seem consistent -- on the Green Room (?) page, LGF is under War on Terror.

108 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:42:04pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy

Well let us hope that an internally threatened theocracy does not let lose some untried nuke at this point.

109 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:42:51pm

Since the comments have drifted from the original topic, I'm going OT with this one.

The president likes to make speeches, and sometimes he takes it too far. But there is a speech he should make soon. Remember when he made his much ballyhooed speech on race? At the time he made it, I felt it was somewhat self serving and probably politically motivated. But now that he is firmly entrenched as the POTUS, I think he should make another. It can have a very beneficial effect if properly written and executed. Some of the bullet points might be these:

1. Criticism of the President does not automatically mean the critic is racist. This is America and Americans disagree for plenty of reasons.

2. Most tea party protesters are good people, but some have bad motives. The rights of assembly and free speech are sacred, but calling out bad actors is the responsibility of good people.

3. Hiding behind race is unacceptable and those who fend off legitimate criticism by doing so are trivializing real acts of racism.

Those are a few things I'd put in there ...

110 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:43:08pm

re: #107 Diamond Bullet

Has Hot Air said why they have LGF under "Left Channels"?

And it doesn't seem consistent -- on the Green Room (?) page, LGF is under War on Terror.

I'm a bad conservative. They're punishing me, and throwing some red meat to their hateful commenters at the same time.

Basically, it's a F*ck You.

111 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:43:39pm

re: #103 SixDegrees

There's still much unexplained about this case. The New York connections, which resulted in raids in Queens; the early disclosure by various agencies.

Glad to see that it's bearing fruit, but there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered at this point. I'll be watching, now that details are beginning to emerge, trying to figure out just what was going down here.

Do you think this might be a flushing operation?

112 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:43:47pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy

I hadn't heard much about Iran since the protests right after that so called election they had. Is there still a lot of unrest there?

113 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:43:51pm

re: #106 Charles

Agreed. There's a lot about the way this case developed that doesn't smell right.

I'll guarantee you this, should this turn out to be as major as it appears to be (based on anonymous statements from "officials") the right will do everything they can to try and say Obama had nothing to do with this.

Sad. Like you said, its a shame to see the right behaving like the left.

114 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:44:18pm

re: #107 Diamond Bullet

Has Hot Air said why they have LGF under "Left Channels"?

And it doesn't seem consistent -- on the Green Room (?) page, LGF is under War on Terror.

Charles pissed them off by dragging their truckloads of racist comments out into the sunlight for them.

115 Syrah  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:04pm

re: #91 Guy_Montag

Snark is difficult in a text based forum.

It can easily be misunderstood, especially if badly played.

If you were attempting snark, you choose your words and timing . . . poorly.

116 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:13pm

re: #112 endotoxin

I hadn't heard much about Iran since the protests right after that so called election they had. Is there still a lot of unrest there?

Check the front page and comments.

117 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:17pm

re: #96 Guy_Montag

Those who are quick to take umbrage, at the slightest provocation, tend to sit upon foundations built of sand.

Plan 9 from Outer Space is a masterpiece of modern cinema.

People who smile with a hammer behind their back tend to be passive aggressive.

118 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:50pm

re: #110 Charles

I'm a bad conservative. They're punishing me, and throwing some red meat to their hateful commenters at the same time.

Basically, it's a F*ck You.

Funny, I always thought of LGF as neither a conservative blog nor a liberal blog. I always thought it was an anti-idiotarianism blog. Since most of the idiotarianisms are now coming from the right, it only makes sense to call attention to them and criticize them, IMHO.

119 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:45:52pm

re: #116 Salamantis

Check the front page and comments.

Scrolling down the front page is teh hard.

120 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:47:00pm

re: #106 Charles

Agreed. There's a lot about the way this case developed that doesn't smell right.

It's odd. I've been watching it, and wondering if this is intended to draw something else out into the open. Then I remind myself this isn't a suspense novel.

121 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:47:09pm

re: #109 _RememberTonyC

That would be a good thing for him to do but I seriously doubt that you will see it. The more the focus shifts from healthcare "reform" and the deficit to what or who "is racist" the more likely the objectives of the current Democratic Congress and Administration will be achieved. Deflection and distraction are powerful tools.

122 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:47:24pm

re: #117 Locker

People who smile with a hammer behind their back tend to be passive aggressive.

Or, in Guy Montag's case, a flamethrower.
/Remember what book his nic comes from ;-)

123 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:47:39pm

Looks like this guy was being monitored closely after his trip to Pakistan. The fact he walked into New York got the people he visited arrested and then they came after him when the trail of arrests would make it obvious they were after him.

That they hadn't picked him up yet indicates that there are others like him also being watched and also would suggest that someone in Pakistan is giving us info on who shows up for camp.

124 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:48:05pm

re: #111 Dianna

Do you think this might be a flushing operation?

No idea. That's a possibility, I suppose. Internecine warfare between agencies - or some sort of agency fuck up - are others. We'll just have to wait and see what gets released.

Still no word on what went down in Queens. Apparently there were quite a few residences raided, but there's been no official confirmation or even comment about this yet.

125 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:48:12pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I'm not amused by your artful dodging. What did you mean by "new protocols"?

I was going to write novel procedures, but I used new protocols instead.

126 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:48:44pm

re: #125 Guy_Montag

I was going to write novel procedures, but I used new protocols instead.

Pray tell- what did you mean by using it?

127 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:48:52pm

re: #110 Charles

I'm a bad conservative. They're punishing me, and throwing some red meat to their hateful commenters at the same time.

Basically, it's a F*ck You.

They've also all bought the notion that they made up that, "Charles sent Killgore over there on a mission!"

Cracks me up all the 'he's an Athiest!'...

So basically all the banned 'We are a christian nation' / 'I.D.'ers / Creationists' set up camp over there. Too bad for the posters who are actually normal over there.

128 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:49:19pm

If only we had kidnapped Zazi, flown him to a CIA black-site prison and waterboarded him. Then I'm sure he would have given this information up much sooner.

/

129 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:49:23pm

re: #125 Guy_Montag

Guy, put the flamethrower down and turn it away from the books.

130 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:49:57pm

re: #127 Oh no...Sand People!

They've also all bought the notion that they made up that, "Charles sent Killgore over there on a mission!"

Cracks me up all the 'he's an Athiest!'...

So basically all the banned 'We are a christian nation' / 'I.D.'ers / Creationists' set up camp over there. Too bad for the posters who are actually normal over there.

Hot Air is the way station:
The Village of the Banned is the destination.

131 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:50:08pm

re: #122 Honorary Yooper

Or, in Guy Montag's case, a flamethrower.
/Remember what book his nic comes from ;-)

Makes me want to rent Equilibrium tonight.

132 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:50:48pm

On a completely unrelated note, they made the Tex Murphy series of PC games compatible with Vista.

This makes me a very happy person.

133 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:50:56pm

re: #128 drcordell

If only we had kidnapped Zazi, flown him to a CIA black-site prison and waterboarded him. Then I'm sure he would have given this information up much sooner.

/

Waterboarding works. On all three individuals that the US used it on.

134 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:51:55pm

re: #132 Equable

On a completely unrelated note, they made the Tex Murphy series of PC games compatible with Vista.

This makes me a very happy person.

Hmm never heard of these before but I'll be checking them out later. Thanks for the tidbit.

135 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:52:05pm

re: #131 Locker

Makes me want to rent Equilibrium tonight.

Heh. I was thinking more along the lines of this.

136 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:52:42pm

re: #135 Honorary Yooper

Heh. I was thinking more along the lines of this.

Roger that, Equilibrium is a modern remake with Christian Bale.

137 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:53:04pm

re: #133 karmic_inquisitor

Waterboarding works. On all three individuals that the US used it on.

We used it on MORE than 3 individuals. And just because they gave up information after being waterboarded is NOT evidence that waterboarding was any more effective than other, non-torture interrogation techniques. See post-hoc fallacy.

138 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:53:22pm

re: #133 karmic_inquisitor

Funny, isn't it? Based on the hoopla over the technique one would have thought that we had waterboarded the entire population of Iraq. BTW, whatever happened to those daily casaulty reports we were getting from Iraq prior to January 2009?

139 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:53:22pm

re: #129 Honorary Yooper

Guy, put the flamethrower down and turn it away from the books.

I find the recent confusion, around these parts, between silly and profane and disrespectful and blasphemous, very amusing. There's no need to be so serious, except when it comes to...

140 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:53:47pm

re: #134 Locker

They were a series of role playing games that came out in the 90's. They were mostly point and click sort of games, but had gripping plots and hilarious dialog. You can check them out on youtube; several people played the whole things through and posted videos of them.

They were very cutting-edge at the time.

141 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:54:29pm

You could still bitch that we "spied" on him.

The CIA reportedly first learned of his alleged al Qaeda ties when Zazi visited Pakistan and official said they later learned of "deeply troubling" conversations that were picked up on government intercepts.

/

142 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:55:04pm

You could still bitch that we "spied" on him.

The CIA reportedly first learned of his alleged al Qaeda ties when Zazi visited Pakistan and official said they later learned of "deeply troubling" conversations that were picked up on government intercepts.

/

143 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:55:54pm

re: #137 drcordell

We used it on MORE than 3 individuals. And just because they gave up information after being waterboarded is NOT evidence that waterboarding was any more effective than other, non-torture interrogation techniques. See post-hoc fallacy.

Actually, only three. And it's PRE-hoc, as other techniques were tried on them prior to their waterboarding.

144 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:56:24pm

re: #139 Guy_Montag

And yet we're still waiting to learn what you meant by "new protocols".

145 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:56:29pm

re: #140 Equable

They were a series of role playing games that came out in the 90's. They were mostly point and click sort of games, but had gripping plots and hilarious dialog. You can check them out on youtube; several people played the whole things through and posted videos of them.

They were very cutting-edge at the time.

I will never forget the "Secret of Monkey Island"... *eyes mist over*...

146 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:56:35pm

How odd. Why is he still walking around?

147 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:56:43pm

re: #138 endotoxin

Funny, isn't it? Based on the hoopla over the technique one would have thought that we had waterboarded the entire population of Iraq. BTW, whatever happened to those daily casaulty reports we were getting from Iraq prior to January 2009?

Am I alone in the belief that torturing a single person is a disgrace to all that America stands for? Not to mention the fact that waterboarding is a technique used not for interrogation, but to solicit false confessions. See Korean War, East German Stasi, Nazi Germany.

148 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 1:58:02pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

How odd. Why is he still walking around?

And that's another puzzle. See above for a few more.

149 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:02:03pm

re: #147 drcordell

Am I alone in the belief that torturing a single person is a disgrace to all that America stands for? Not to mention the fact that waterboarding is a technique used not for interrogation, but to solicit false confessions. See Korean War, East German Stasi, Nazi Germany.

You already know the answer to your question. You've brought this exact topic up many times in the past, and continue to flog it at every opportunity.

It seems clear to me that you're not interested in discussion or what others have to say, but are simply trolling.

If you really don't recall how people have responded in the past, the Search function, or simply a listing of your own posts, will turn them up, and you can go reread them to refamiliarize yourself with what others - including me - think of this topic.

Or, you can ignore it yet again and keep tossing flamebait.

150 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:02:58pm

re: #137 drcordell

We used it on MORE than 3 individuals. And just because they gave up information after being waterboarded is NOT evidence that waterboarding was any more effective than other, non-torture interrogation techniques. See post-hoc fallacy.

Bullshit.

You haven't read the redacted inspector general's report on interrogation techniques.

I have.

The IG states clearly and unambiguously that, in the case of KSM, that waterboarding was the only technique that secured full cooperation and that the information he then provided resulted in a "cascade" of intelligence that compromised several operations by AQ that were in progress.

I am fine with people who have moral qualms with waterbaording. But it has proven effective in the case of KSM and the 2 others in the IG report. The IG report refutes the claim "there are equally effective techniques" and "it only leads to bad intelligence". The report does say that the same info might have come from these individuals over time using other techniques.

151 JanglerNPL  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:03:55pm

re: #147 drcordell

You are not alone in believing that we shouldn't have used waterboarding or other EITs. I share that belief. I do not hold in disdain those who disagree with me on this point--one should never claim infallibility on issues of morality. And I certainly believe that the comparisons to Nazi Germany are unwarranted.

152 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:04:04pm

re: #147 drcordell

Am I alone in the belief that torturing a single person is a disgrace to all that America stands for? Not to mention the fact that waterboarding is a technique used not for interrogation, but to solicit false confessions. See Korean War, East German Stasi, Nazi Germany.

Personally, I would have simply gone with executions for being non-uniformed enemy combatants. As it stands, I have no problems with waterboardings.

153 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:05:04pm

re: #143 Salamantis

Actually, only three. And it's PRE-hoc, as other techniques were tried on them prior to their waterboarding.

It's most certainly a post-hoc fallacy. We waterboarded prisoners, and they subsequently gave information, therefore waterboarding produced that information is post-hoc. There is no evidence that proves the same result would not have occurred without waterboarding.

154 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:05:07pm

re: #147 drcordell

Am I alone in the belief that torturing a single person is a disgrace to all that America stands for? Not to mention the fact that waterboarding is a technique used not for interrogation, but to solicit false confessions. See Korean War, East German Stasi, Nazi Germany.


You may not be alone in the belief that it is better to allow thousands of innocent civilian citizens merely going about their day and trying to support their families to die horrible painful deaths rather than to subject a single genocidal terrorist mastermind to extreme discomfort without physical pain or permanent physical consequences in order to extract the information necessary to save them, but I don't think you'd be in the majority on this list.

And extracting intel is quite different from extracting supposedly false confessions for the purpose of show trials, as what is important about intel is that it be true, and both the interrogator and the interrogatee know that any intel provided will be checked out, and should it prove to be false, they would be seeing each other again - so the interrogatee has an understood and vested interest in not lying about such matters.

155 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:05:19pm

re: #145 Oh no...Sand People!

I will never forget the "Secret of Monkey Island"... *eyes mist over*...

“So you want to be a pirate, eh? You look more like a flooring inspector.”
– Blind Lookout to Guybrush Threepwood

156 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:06:27pm

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

Funny, I always thought of LGF as neither a conservative blog nor a liberal blog. I always thought it was an anti-idiotarianism blog. Since most of the idiotarianisms are now coming from the right, it only makes sense to call attention to them and criticize them, IMHO.

I tend to agree. I'm a 9/11 Republican who voted for (gulp) Gore in 2000, and I've always found LGF's "dominant" political ideology wonderfully hard to pigeonhole. I'm still going to make fun of Obama as necessary, though. That's just common sense.

Maybe the lead banner could be set up to morph between the old "classic" threatened Terrorist + Moonbat and a "George Lucas Special Edition" of a threatened Discovery Institute ID "researcher" and a Birfer. It could even toggle between them throbbing memo-style. I'm only sort of joking.

157 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:06:36pm

Yeesh. Had a little server hiccup there.

Should be OK now. I tried something intended to fix the occasionally wrong 'new comments' number and it ... uh ... didn't work in an optimal fashion.

(In other words, it sent the DB server into a coma.)

158 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:07:16pm

re: #147 drcordell

No, I doubt you are alone in your belief, but there are many of us who don't feel that waterboarding was torture. In fact, I think the folks who got it deserve a lot worse.

159 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:07:29pm

re: #153 drcordell

It's most certainly a post-hoc fallacy. We waterboarded prisoners, and they subsequently gave information, therefore waterboarding produced that information is post-hoc. There is no evidence that proves the same result would not have occurred without waterboarding.

so what?...those assholes are lucky to be alive

160 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:07:31pm

re: #153 drcordell

It's most certainly a post-hoc fallacy. We waterboarded prisoners, and they subsequently gave information, therefore waterboarding produced that information is post-hoc. There is no evidence that proves the same result would not have occurred without waterboarding.

Nope, it's pre hoc, and not a fallacy, because we used other interrogation methods upon those three before we waterboarded them, and they did not furnish good intel After being waterboarded, however, they did. So first, other-than-waterboarding did NOT work, then waterboarding DID.

161 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:07:58pm

OT

The jumping of the shark continues at Drudge.

He has a link up called:

FIRST LADY SHOWS OFF 'BONDAGE BELT'...

Michelle Derangement Syndrome

162 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:08:53pm

re: #161 Gus 802

Something else about Michelle Obama that I would never care to see...

163 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:09:08pm

OT:

Found something over at WSJ that you might enjoy Charles.

Man Vs. God

We commissioned Karen Armstrong and Richard Dawkins to respond independently to the question "Where does evolution leave God?" Neither knew what the other would say. Here are the results.

I'm deep into Ms. Armstrong's response and thought you might find it interesting.

164 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:09:11pm

re: #145 Oh no...Sand People!

Total classic! I loved that game. Can't forget Maniac Mansion too!

I've been a gamer for a really long time and games nowadays, though flashy and gorgeous don't just seem to have the same "awe factor" that they did when PC gaming first started to really blossom. Back then it was mostly geeks such as myself that could even get these games to run, so the content they wrote catered mostly to cats with my sense of taste.

It's partly why I still play Everquest (roll your eyes, I know). It's one of the first games of that type that blew me away and I tend to be a bit sentimental.

At any rate, if you like good gripping story lines and solving puzzles and have a penchant for mysteries the Tex Murphy series of games are without comparison.

Under A Killing Moon
The Pandora Directive
Tex Murphy: Overseer

165 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:10:37pm

re: #147 drcordell

Am I alone in the belief that torturing a single person is a disgrace to all that America stands for? Not to mention the fact that waterboarding is a technique used not for interrogation, but to solicit false confessions. See Korean War, East German Stasi, Nazi Germany.

No. You aren't alone.

And Randall Terry isn't alone in thinking that a single abortion is a disgrace to all Americans.

I think I stand alone in thinking that moral absolutists such as yourself and Randall Terry should fete each other. But that is just me.

I have no problem with the moral stain of waterboarding terrorists. And each of the three was a terrorist.

166 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:10:40pm

re: #161 Gus 802

OT

The jumping of the shark continues at Drudge.

He has a link up called:


Michelle Derangement Syndrome

I've seen bondage belts in my days and that is no bondage belt.

A stupid belt, yes, but not a bondage belt.

167 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:11:20pm

re: #161 Gus 802

OT

The jumping of the shark continues at Drudge.

He has a link up called:

Michelle Derangement Syndrome

I do have to admit, this is the first time I've seen a First Lady in fetish gear that wasn't photoshopped.
/

168 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:11:40pm

re: #150 karmic_inquisitor

Bullshit.

You haven't read the redacted inspector general's report on interrogation techniques.

I have.

The IG states clearly and unambiguously that, in the case of KSM, that waterboarding was the only technique that secured full cooperation and that the information he then provided resulted in a "cascade" of intelligence that compromised several operations by AQ that were in progress.

I am fine with people who have moral qualms with waterbaording. But it has proven effective in the case of KSM and the 2 others in the IG report. The IG report refutes the claim "there are equally effective techniques" and "it only leads to bad intelligence". The report does say that the same info might have come from these individuals over time using other techniques.

Again. You are drawing conclusions using the post-hoc fallacy. The IG report does state that KSM gave up intelligence after being waterboarded. But you cannot draw the conclusion that waterboarding was necessary to produce that information. This is a textbook post-hoc fallacy.

Just because you ace your test after finding a lucky 4-leaf clover does not mean that your 4-leaf clover caused you to ace the test. Just because we waterboarded KSM and he gave up intel does NOT mean that information could have been solicited in any number of ways that are not torture. I'm not an idiot, I know what the IG report says. And it does not state anywhere that torture was necessary.

I'm off to get drunk, I'll catch you all later.

169 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:11:58pm

re: #164 Equable

Total classic! I loved that game. Can't forget Maniac Mansion too!

I've been a gamer for a really long time and games nowadays, though flashy and gorgeous don't just seem to have the same "awe factor" that they did when PC gaming first started to really blossom. Back then it was mostly geeks such as myself that could even get these games to run, so the content they wrote catered mostly to cats with my sense of taste.

It's partly why I still play Everquest (roll your eyes, I know). It's one of the first games of that type that blew me away and I tend to be a bit sentimental.

At any rate, if you like good gripping story lines and solving puzzles and have a penchant for mysteries the Tex Murphy series of games are without comparison.

Under A Killing Moon
The Pandora Directive
Tex Murphy: Overseer

Well I don't still play Everquest but just to add perspective... my first PC game was Zork I played off a cassette tape on a TRS-80.

West of House
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

170 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:12:16pm

OT: Speaking of Michelle Obama - is it true that in her speech today about healthcare that she was saying that she didn't see why a 25 year old woman would pay more for insurance than a 25 year old male? If so, I know the answer, and it's not sexism, not even "racism", but probably a phenomenon known as pregnancy and pre/post natal care.

171 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:12:36pm
172 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:12:46pm

OT: In regards the thing with Hot Air
I'm sorry that it has soured the relationship between Charles and Hot Air. To be clear I am not an Employee of Charles or LGF! I simply comment here. Charles has no influence over what I post on other blogs and it shouldn't reflect on him in any way. Kudos to Hot Air for taking action against racism.

173 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:13:03pm

re: #168 drcordell

I'm off to get drunk, I'll catch you all later.

You mean you're not already?

174 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:13:12pm

re: #161 Gus 802

Ugh, don't get me started.
;)

175 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:13:47pm

Flounce!

176 Mich-again  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:14:05pm

re: #171 allahakchew

Dumb and stupid is no way to go through life son.

177 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:14:20pm

re: #171 allahakchew

Can you take Guy Whatshisface with you?

178 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:14:45pm

re: #168 drcordell

Again. You are drawing conclusions using the post-hoc fallacy. The IG report does state that KSM gave up intelligence after being waterboarded. But you cannot draw the conclusion that waterboarding was necessary to produce that information. This is a textbook post-hoc fallacy.

Just because you ace your test after finding a lucky 4-leaf clover does not mean that your 4-leaf clover caused you to ace the test. Just because we waterboarded KSM and he gave up intel does NOT mean that information could have been solicited in any number of ways that are not torture. I'm not an idiot, I know what the IG report says. And it does not state anywhere that torture was necessary.

I'm off to get drunk, I'll catch you all later.

The report ALSO states that many other methods were tried on KSM prior to his being waterboarded, and he proved to be impervious to them all.

Which renders your post hoc fallacy contention false.

179 sngnsgt  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:02pm

re: #173 Leonidas Hoplite

Great minds think alike, I was going to reply the same thing...

180 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:10pm

re: #171 allahakchew

At 4:14 pm, the National Weather Service in Kansas City has announced a "Flounce Warning" for the following posters... allakachew...

181 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:16pm

re: #169 Locker

I played Adventure on an IBM 360/67 timesharing system.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

182 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:39pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

OT: In regards the thing with Hot Air
I'm sorry that it has soured the relationship between Charles and Hot Air. To be clear I am not an Employee of Charles or LGF! I simply comment here. Charles has no influence over what I post on other blogs and it shouldn't reflect on him in any way. Kudos to Hot Air for taking action against racism.

personally I salute you...but only this one time :)

183 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:46pm

re: #166 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've seen bondage belts in my days and that is no bondage belt.

A stupid belt, yes, but not a bondage belt.

Exactly. And he went as far to put it as are: #172 Killgore Trout

OT: In regards the thing with Hot Air
I'm sorry that it has soured the relationship between Charles and Hot Air. To be clear I am not an Employee of Charles or LGF! I simply comment here. Charles has no influence over what I post on other blogs and it shouldn't reflect on him in any way. Kudos to Hot Air for taking action against racism.

Have you read the comments there? One guys is warning about "black ops." Another planted some nasty made up rumor about Charles. It's over the top.

184 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:56pm

re: #181 Kosh's Shadow

Sounds like Adventure on the Atari 2600 also.

185 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:15:58pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

OT: In regards the thing with Hot Air
I'm sorry that it has soured the relationship between Charles and Hot Air. To be clear I am not an Employee of Charles or LGF! I simply comment here. Charles has no influence over what I post on other blogs and it shouldn't reflect on him in any way. Kudos to Hot Air for taking action against racism.

I appreciate the apology - but please note that this didn't 'sour' anything. It was a train wreck waiting to happen. They've been allowing vile, disgusting comments about me to be posted there for months and months. Stuff that would be deleted here within minutes. So I have no regrets at all about removing links to their site.

I'll send traffic to people who don't allow hate speech.

186 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:16:10pm

Excusing torture makes us more like them. Doing it was wrong.

187 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:16:25pm

re: #181 Kosh's Shadow

I played Adventure on an IBM 360/67 timesharing system.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

I played "Star Trek" on a teletype system linked to a Hitachi clone of an IBM mainframe ... when the "Computer Algebra" teacher wasn't looking, of course.

188 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:08pm

re: #182 albusteve

personally I salute you...but only this one time :)

Hey, KT, me too ... hell, I'll throw in a few extra.

I'm not as stingy as albusteve.

;)

189 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:15pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Have you read the comments there? One guys is warning about "black ops." Another planted some nasty made up rumor about Charles. It's over the top.

There are some very sick people posting comments at Hot Air.

190 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:18pm

re: #186 Coracle

Excusing torture makes us more like them. Doing it was wrong.

Letting thousands of innocents perish because you refuse to coerce the information necessary to save them from a genocidal terrorist is wrong.

191 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:21pm

re: #181 Kosh's Shadow

I played Adventure on an IBM 360/67 timesharing system.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike

Xyzzy

192 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:31pm

re: #184 endotoxin

Sounds like Adventure on the Atari 2600 also.

Same game. It was ported later; there were no Ataris at that time (well, there were, but they played Pong)

193 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:31pm

re: #163 CyanSnowHawk

I find Ms. Armstrong's answer to be very good and well written. On matters of biological evolution, Dawkins is good, but I find him a bit of a boor when it comes to religion.

194 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #190 Salamantis

Letting thousands of innocents perish because you refuse to coerce the information necessary to save them from a genocidal terrorist is wrong.

Except that didn't happen.

195 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #186 Coracle

When we start flying planes into skyscrapers and running into markets with bombs strapped to our chests, then maybe you can say that.

196 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:28pm

Good Afternoon Lizards..Hope today finds you all well..
The #2 and #3 comments on this thread are troubling...To be expected over the last couple of weeks..
Hope you got my email Charles...

197 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:28pm
198 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:33pm

re: #188 OldLineTexan

Hey, KT, me too ... hell, I'll throw in a few extra.

I'm not as stingy as albusteve.

;)

stingy?...he's gonna grow orchids in Jamaica with me fercryinoutloud!

199 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:35pm

re: #168 drcordell

I'm off to get drunk, I'll catch you all later.

Odd, some of us thought you already were.

200 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:45pm

re: #195 endotoxin

You're talking revenge. It plays into their hands.

201 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:18:53pm

re: #198 albusteve

stingy?...he's gonna grow orchids in Jamaica with me fercryinoutloud!

orchids ... yeah right

/

202 Gus  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:00pm

re: #189 Charles

There are some very sick people posting comments at Hot Air.

There are. Couldn't help but notice that almost every article there today is about race in one form or another. They also have RS McCain linked up.

203 turn  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:15pm

re: #168 drcordell

I'm off to get drunk, I'll catch you all later.

You weren't already? jeeze broken record ...

204 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:47pm

re: #186 Coracle

Excusing torture makes us more like them. Doing it was wrong.

well just poop then

205 acwgusa  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:51pm

re: #190 Salamantis

Letting thousands of innocents perish because you refuse to coerce the information necessary to save them from a genocidal terrorist is wrong.

We didn't even need to waterboard KSM. Did you see the hair on that guy? All we had to do was threaten to wax him!

206 Kragar  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:53pm

re: #200 Coracle

You're talking revenge. It plays into their hands.

Complete and utter bullshit

207 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:19:56pm

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

Funny, I always thought of LGF as neither a conservative blog nor a liberal blog. I always thought it was an anti-idiotarianism blog. Since most of the idiotarianisms are now coming from the right, it only makes sense to call attention to them and criticize them, IMHO.

And I've looked at LGF as a right leaning blog that isn't bat shit crazy (which may be the same thing). I do find it fascinating that my three favorite blogs are Andrew Sullivan, Balloon Juice and LGF. add in the New Majority and the Next Right, and there's a chance to develop either a) the ability to counter the pull to the insanity gripping the Far Right, or b) to develop another party and write off the Far Right as a lost cause.

I'm grateful for your blog.

208 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:20:10pm

re: #194 Coracle

Except that didn't happen.

Actually, several different plots that would have resulted in the deaths of thousands were interdicted on the basis of the info that a waterboarded KSM provided, including plots to bomb multiple planes over population centers and attack the Library Tower in Los Angeles. So yes it DID happen.

209 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:20:14pm

re: #197 MikeySDCA

I entirely agree with you, but if it works... Sorry for my ambivalence.

I remain unconvinced as to its efficacy. The IG report also casts significant doubt onto its efficacy.

210 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:20:18pm

re: #187 OldLineTexan

I played "Star Trek" on a teletype system linked to a Hitachi clone of an IBM mainframe ... when the "Computer Algebra" teacher wasn't looking, of course.

Yes, mostly on a DECSystem-10, but that was in college.

And I wrote a different Star Trek game for an IBM 1130; it would print the range and bearing of a Klingon ship and you would type in whether to fire phasers or photon torpedoes and what angle.
Then the ship would move, and you'd repeat it until you or the Klingon were destroyed.
I still have the deck of computer cards in my basement, but they probably have absorbed enough moisture not to go through card readers, assuming I could find one, and get a FORTRAN compiler, and actually want to play it.

211 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:20:55pm

re: #169 Locker

Wow, I was actually thinking about Zork and Zork II earlier. My first PC (well sort of) was a Vic-20 that used cassettes for data also. Those text games rocked.

212 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:21:24pm

re: #200 Coracle

You're talking revenge. It plays into their hands.

Extracting information in order to prevent future deaths is not the same as inflicting pain for past ones.

213 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:21:47pm

re: #200 Coracle

You're talking revenge. It plays into their hands.

you have a strange survival instinct

214 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:06pm

re: #200 Coracle

Waterboarding for the sake of causing discomfort may be construed as revenge. Waterboarding for intelligence to try to stop our enemy's comrades is not revenge. It's common sense.

215 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:23pm

re: #211 Equable

Wow, I was actually thinking about Zork and Zork II earlier. My first PC (well sort of) was a Vic-20 that used cassettes for data also. Those text games rocked.

VIC 20 had the coolest game! remember driving your ship around a track? What was the name of that game?

216 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:24pm

Hey, Guy...

Still waiting to hear you elaborate on what you meant by "new protocols".

217 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:29pm

re: #204 albusteve

well just poop then

wait until they launch a series of attacks, then attack them

/wait, that's revenge

ok, lie down and take it ... but that sounds like gandhi and the jews

dead and morally superior is not better than alive, imo

if you want to get killed by fanatics, or live in fear of them, go ahead ... but don't expect me to allow you to sacrifice myself or my family to your strange sense of right and wrong any more than i will sacrifice to theirs

218 drcordell  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:29pm

re: #165 karmic_inquisitor

No. You aren't alone.

And Randall Terry isn't alone in thinking that a single abortion is a disgrace to all Americans.

I think I stand alone in thinking that moral absolutists such as yourself and Randall Terry should fete each other. But that is just me.

I have no problem with the moral stain of waterboarding terrorists. And each of the three was a terrorist.

Are you kidding me? Not supporting torture now makes me the equivalent of someone who cheers on the murder of doctors. Fuck you very much.

You can't seem to manage to wrap your head around the fact that we tortured HUNDRED of terror suspects. Not terrorists. Terror suspects. Many of whom died as a result of savage beatings, blunt force trauma or hypothermia. More than just three men were tortured. And I can guarantee you that there were innocents among the guilty.

When we torture as a nation, we lose any moral authority to protect human rights anywhere else on the globe. Now that we have established ourselves as a nation that tortures, we have no standing to move against Iran for brutally torturing and raping political prisoners. America has legitimized torture, and the world is a worse place for it. Especially considering that the experts in interrogation know that torture severely increases the chance of false confession.

The Nazis indeed used the waterboard, but only to extract false confessions. The most feared Nazi interrogator, who broke more of our soldiers than any other man, did not even raise his voice in the presence of a prisoner. Not once.

We destroyed the moral authority of the greatest nation on earth by torturing. And the information that it produced could have been extracted by any number of alternative means. that is all.

219 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:36pm
220 Killgore Trout  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:51pm

re: #198 albusteve

stingy?...he's gonna grow orchids in Jamaica with me fercryinoutloud!

Sharpening pruning shears and ready go!

221 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:22:55pm

re: #208 Salamantis

Actually, several different plots that would have resulted in the deaths of thousands were interdicted on the basis of the info that a waterboarded KSM provided, including plots to bomb multiple planes over population centers and attack the Library Tower in Los Angeles. So yes it DID happen.

From what I understand those plots were not foiled by KSM information. They either weren't going to happen at all, or had been taken down by other actions. No cite, because it was from long ago, so if you have a link to correct me, I'll read it.

222 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:23:03pm

#3 is now at -34.

223 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:23:36pm

re: #210 Kosh's Shadow

Yes, mostly on a DECSystem-10, but that was in college.

And I wrote a different Star Trek game for an IBM 1130; it would print the range and bearing of a Klingon ship and you would type in whether to fire phasers or photon torpedoes and what angle.
Then the ship would move, and you'd repeat it until you or the Klingon were destroyed.
I still have the deck of computer cards in my basement, but they probably have absorbed enough moisture not to go through card readers, assuming I could find one, and get a FORTRAN compiler, and actually want to play it.

My card decks were all recycled as soon as I could dump them into the barrel!

224 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:23:41pm

re: #206 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You're entitled.

225 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:24:28pm

re: #218 drcordell

I see you successfully got blotto. Please go blow chunks now.

226 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:24:36pm

re: #212 Salamantis

Extracting information in order to prevent future deaths is not the same as inflicting pain for past ones.

Except it can be done effectively without becoming more like them.

227 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:25:01pm

re: #217 OldLineTexan

wait until they launch a series of attacks, then attack them

/wait, that's revenge

ok, lie down and take it ... but that sounds like gandhi and the jews

dead and morally superior is not better than alive, imo

if you want to get killed by fanatics, or live in fear of them, go ahead ... but don't expect me to allow you to sacrifice myself or my family to your strange sense of right and wrong any more than i will sacrifice to theirs

indeed...this ridiculous moral inflexability gets people killed...no better than them!...spitX2

228 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:25:05pm

re: #215 HoosierHoops

VIC 20 had the coolest game! remember driving your ship around a track? What was the name of that game?

Omega Race perhaps?

229 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:25:10pm

re: #221 Coracle

From what I understand those plots were not foiled by KSM information. They either weren't going to happen at all, or had been taken down by other actions. No cite, because it was from long ago, so if you have a link to correct me, I'll read it.

Other than extreme generalities we know nothing of what waterboarding provided as that information is classified and still not released. Those in the know have either said nothing or implied it was significant (Cheney). The above is pure speculation.

230 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:25:15pm
231 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:25:36pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Sharpening pruning shears and ready go!

I got by bottle opener polished up!

232 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:00pm

re: #214 endotoxin

Waterboarding for the sake of causing discomfort may be construed as revenge. Waterboarding for intelligence to try to stop our enemy's comrades is not revenge. It's common sense.

It's torture, and it's not the only, nor the best way to extract information.

233 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:25pm

re: #228 Drogheda

Omega Race perhaps?

you win Ding Ding...Dang that was fun in the day

234 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:36pm

re: #218 drcordell

Are you kidding me? Not supporting torture now makes me the equivalent of someone who cheers on the murder of doctors. Fuck you very much.

You can't seem to manage to wrap your head around the fact that we tortured HUNDRED of terror suspects. Not terrorists. Terror suspects. Many of whom died as a result of savage beatings, blunt force trauma or hypothermia. More than just three men were tortured. And I can guarantee you that there were innocents among the guilty.

When we torture as a nation, we lose any moral authority to protect human rights anywhere else on the globe. Now that we have established ourselves as a nation that tortures, we have no standing to move against Iran for brutally torturing and raping political prisoners. America has legitimized torture, and the world is a worse place for it. Especially considering that the experts in interrogation know that torture severely increases the chance of false confession.

The Nazis indeed used the waterboard, but only to extract false confessions. The most feared Nazi interrogator, who broke more of our soldiers than any other man, did not even raise his voice in the presence of a prisoner. Not once.

We destroyed the moral authority of the greatest nation on earth by torturing. And the information that it produced could have been extracted by any number of alternative means. that is all.

Actually, as I said to you before and you willfully refuse to hear, we tried all other means at our disposal upon KSM prior to waterboarding him, and he proved impervious to them all, but after we waterboarded him, he furnished us with intel that allowed us to save thousands of innocent lives from ongoing Al Qaeda terrorist plots. So your self-serving contention that there were other means of extracting the information from him is an odious, egregious, and heinous lie. Because we DID try those other means first. And they didn't work. But waterboarding did.

235 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:39pm

re: #226 Coracle

Except it can be done effectively without becoming more like them.

And I've got a nice little seaside shack in Colorado I'd love to sell you.

236 JanglerNPL  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:48pm

re: #221 Coracle

Here's a Your text to link... about the Library Tower...I remember reading something about this...the gist of it is that the Bush administration claimed to have "broken up" the LT plot in 2002, while Khalid Sheikh-Mohammed wasn't captured until 2003.

237 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:52pm

re: #211 Equable

Wow, I was actually thinking about Zork and Zork II earlier. My first PC (well sort of) was a Vic-20 that used cassettes for data also. Those text games rocked.

You can play Adventure here
and Zork here

238 Equable  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:26:53pm

re: #215 HoosierHoops

lol you just described about 98% of their games!

239 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:05pm

re: #218 drcordell

darn it...and they could have just spilled the beans in the first place...those hard headed jihadis

240 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:12pm

re: #232 Coracle

It's torture, and it's not the only, nor the best way to extract information.

If you are aware of any more effective means, I imagine a whole host of agencies and entities would be grateful if you would share.

241 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:21pm

re: #229 Lee Coller

I trust Cheney 110%.

242 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:36pm

re: #200 Coracle

You're talking revenge. It plays into their hands.

Nonsense!

243 Drogheda  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:55pm

re: #233 HoosierHoops

you win Ding Ding...Dang that was fun in the day

I put more than a few quarters into Omega Race.

244 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:27:55pm

re: #211 Equable

Wow, I was actually thinking about Zork and Zork II earlier. My first PC (well sort of) was a Vic-20 that used cassettes for data also. Those text games rocked.

Hehe yea good ones. I also played ADVENT like was mentioned and it was indeed previous to Zork. That's why I busted out "Xyzzy".

[Link:wikipedia.org... ]

Modern usage derives primarily from one of the earliest computer games, Colossal Cave Adventure, in which the idea is to explore an underground cave with many rooms and to collect the treasures you find there. By typing "xyzzy" at the appropriate time, the player could move instantly between two otherwise distant points. Hundreds of later interactive fiction games contain responses to the command "xyzzy" as a tribute to Colossal Cave Adventure.[1] More recent games have shown a trend of increasingly more elaborate and in-joke-like responses.

The origin of the word has been the subject of debate. Rick Adams pointed out that the mnemonic "XYZZY" has long been taught by math teachers to remember the process for performing cross products (as a mnemonic that lists the order of subscripts to be multiplied first).[2] Crowther states that he was unaware of the mnemonic, and that he "made it up from whole cloth" when writing the game.[3]

245 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:28:09pm

re: #237 Kosh's Shadow

You can play Adventure here
and Zork here

Zork was the best game ever. Games have only gotten suckier after Zork

246 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:28:29pm

re: #236 JanglerNPL

Here's a Your text to link... about the Library Tower...I remember reading something about this...the gist of it is that the Bush administration claimed to have "broken up" the LT plot in 2002, while Khalid Sheikh-Mohammed wasn't captured until 2003.

Than you.

247 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:28:42pm

re: #213 albusteve

you have a strange survival instinct

The need for that amount of moral purity is anti-survival.

248 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:08pm

re: #239 albusteve

darn it...and they could have just spilled the beans in the first place...those hard headed jihadis

"extract" is such a harsh word

look at a juice extractor, and tell me those oranges arent being tortured

soon we will need a new word

"beg" comes to mind, as does "plead"

probably would work just as well, right?

249 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:18pm

re: #216 Sharmuta

Hey, Guy...

Still waiting to hear you elaborate on what you meant by "new protocols".

I can't wait...His #2 post floored me...

250 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:23pm

re: #240 Guanxi88

If you are aware of any more effective means, I imagine a whole host of agencies and entities would be grateful if you would share.

The FBI and the Mossad already know them. That's why the FBI is now going to be in charge of interrogations.

251 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:42pm
252 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:54pm

re: #221 Coracle

From what I understand those plots were not foiled by KSM information. They either weren't going to happen at all, or had been taken down by other actions. No cite, because it was from long ago, so if you have a link to correct me, I'll read it.

[Link: www.time.com...]

253 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:55pm

re: #249 HoosierHoops

I can't wait...His #2 post floored me...

After his #67 I'm surprised he's still around to answer.

254 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:29:56pm

re: #248 OldLineTexan

We could just promise them access to taxpayer funded healthcare.

255 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:30:14pm

re: #154 Salamantis

You may not be alone in the belief that it is better to allow thousands of innocent civilian citizens merely going about their day and trying to support their families to die horrible painful deaths rather than to subject a single genocidal terrorist mastermind to extreme discomfort without physical pain or permanent physical consequences in order to extract the information necessary to save them, but I don't think you'd be in the majority on this list.

And extracting intel is quite different from extracting supposedly false confessions for the purpose of show trials, as what is important about intel is that it be true, and both the interrogator and the interrogatee know that any intel provided will be checked out, and should it prove to be false, they would be seeing each other again - so the interrogatee has an understood and vested interest in not lying about such matters.

Setting any moral issues aside, I think the biggest issue I have is the idea that we got more intel out of German POWs without torture and by taking the time to develop a rapport and relationship with them to turn them. That we could do that with people who was bent on killing entire tribes and nations of people in the middle of a war where literally 1000s of Americans were dying each day, but somehow that won't work in this day and age, really disturbs me.

256 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:30:54pm

re: #247 Dianna

The need for that amount of moral purity is anti-survival.

you can afford to be pure as long as you are criticizing a large enough group of impure individuals to cover your (physical) ass while you rip into their (moral) ass

257 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:31:01pm

re: #234 Salamantis

Actually, as I said to you before and you willfully refuse to hear, we tried all other means at our disposal upon KSM prior to waterboarding him, and he proved impervious to them all, but after we waterboarded him, he furnished us with intel that allowed us to save thousands of innocent lives from ongoing Al Qaeda terrorist plots. So your self-serving contention that there were other means of extracting the information from him is an odious, egregious, and heinous lie. Because we DID try those other means first. And they didn't work. But waterboarding did.

Hooking up a car battery to someone's testicles might work as well but it doesn't make it right. We shouldn't torture. We shouldn't violate due process.

The "if X amount of people could be saved from torture" argument doesn't sway me to be honest. Don't know many of us who would accept that if it happened to be directed our way i.e. "If X amount of people could be saved if we throw your pet mongoose off the roof", etc.

258 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:31:15pm
259 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:31:34pm

re: #247 Dianna

The need for that amount of moral purity is anti-survival.

it's a damned death wish...life can be a bitch sometimes when you get caught trying to kill innocent people...so be it

260 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:31:40pm

re: #254 endotoxin

We could just promise them access to taxpayer funded healthcare.

good lord man what kind of demon are you?

/

261 Guy_Montag  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:31:48pm

re: #216 Sharmuta

Hey, Guy...

Still waiting to hear you elaborate on what you meant by "new protocols".

Now you're just being silly -- I like silly. Blessed are you, who convert your neighbour's ox, for you shall inhibit their girth.

262 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:32:04pm

re: #258 taxfreekiller

Gee, do you not understand, first we have to fix the health care system, make the illegals all citizens, then when the Iran and Ben Loud Ones bombs go off we can treat all the wounds and all will be citizens and qualify for the dole. Come on America wake follow the bouncing liberal spending ball Pres. Obama is bouncing off your forehead.

priorities, what is "good" has to be good for Democrats first, then you little people get the left over goodies... aka scraps,,,

You've got some left over froth on the corner of your mouth...yea.. right there..

263 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:32:08pm

re: #226 Coracle

Except it can be done effectively without becoming more like them.

We did extract it effectively without becoming like the terrorists. Waterboarding isn't even close to the same category as taking drill bits to kneecaps, wiring genitals up to high voltage, or scooping eyeballs out with spoons

264 McSpiff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:32:48pm

re: #259 albusteve

it's a damned death wish...life can be a bitch sometimes when you get caught trying to kill innocent people...so be it

Or, when we think we caught you trying to kill innocent people. Subtle but important difference.

265 TedStriker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:32:52pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

re: #2 Guy_Montag

re: #22 Guy_Montag

Y'all go take a nice long walk off a short pier...it'd be more productive than the piles of bullshit y'all just laid.

/assholes...

266 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:32:58pm

re: #255 bloodstar

Setting any moral issues aside, I think the biggest issue I have is the idea that we got more intel out of German POWs without torture and by taking the time to develop a rapport and relationship with them to turn them. That we could do that with people who was bent on killing entire tribes and nations of people in the middle of a war where literally 1000s of Americans were dying each day, but somehow that won't work in this day and age, really disturbs me.

Many Germans weren't as ideologically committed to Nazism as Jihadis are to their version of Islam. There were vast numbers of German military who did what they did due to patriotism or because they were ordered to. They would be more susceptible to gentler means of persuasion.

267 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #250 Coracle

The FBI and the Mossad already know them. That's why the FBI is now going to be in charge of interrogations.

Mossad techniques run the gamut, from simple conversation, through psychological tricks and so forth, all the way up to the sort of physical discomfort techniques the thought of which can tie people up in knots as "torture."

That said, if your objection to the enhanced techniques is on moral grounds, then say so; if on grounds of efficacy, then that's a different matter altogether. But to object on moral grounds alone would suffice; bringing in efficacy concerns would make a cynic think you're just utilitarian about it.

268 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:08pm

re: #255 bloodstar

Setting any moral issues aside, I think the biggest issue I have is the idea that we got more intel out of German POWs without torture and by taking the time to develop a rapport and relationship with them to turn them. That we could do that with people who was bent on killing entire tribes and nations of people in the middle of a war where literally 1000s of Americans were dying each day, but somehow that won't work in this day and age, really disturbs me.

KSM wasn't interested in rapport with infidels; he was interested in killing them.

269 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:17pm
270 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:29pm

re: #254 endotoxin

We could just promise them access to taxpayer funded healthcare.

That would certainly have me ready to confess all.

271 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #257 Locker

Hmm. Due process for most if not all of the Gitmo crew would have been a firing squad.

Is that what you meant?

272 Locker  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:33pm

re: #263 Salamantis

We did extract it effectively without becoming like the terrorists. Waterboarding isn't even close to the same category as taking drill bits to kneecaps, wiring genitals up to high voltage, or scooping eyeballs out with spoons

Yes it is in the same category.. it's called torture.

273 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:33:53pm

re: #98 Salamantis

I hadn't planned on defending myself, but: I promise you that I meant #3 to be meant ironically. Perhaps I hit "post" too soon so I could be the first to comment, but it still seems to pretty obvious (to me) that a comment like that could not have been meant seriously. And if you look at my past comments (if that is possible) you can see that I have consistently taken a stand against bigotry on this site--even back in 2004 when it seemed that I was in the minority and there was a lot of talk about "Paleostinians" and what should be done to them. My name here

274 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:34:27pm

re: #250 Coracle

The FBI and the Mossad already know them. That's why the FBI is now going to be in charge of interrogations.

And if the Mossad know these techniques, why then would we not have availed ourselves of this superior technology earlier? Do you think it was ignorance, or something a little darker that kept us from using these better techniques?

275 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:34:32pm

re: #256 OldLineTexan

you can afford to be pure as long as you are criticizing a large enough group of impure individuals to cover your (physical) ass while you rip into their (moral) ass

Boy, are my (moral) cheeks red, then.

276 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:35:05pm

re: #272 Locker

Yes it is in the same category.. it's called torture.

Yes, the same way that armpits, fog, and moss on trees are in the same category - damp things.

277 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:35:32pm

re: #269 MikeySDCA

The Germans we were capturing were Western Front Army types, not SS or even the Eastern Front Army, who did some really nasty stuff.

GERMAN POWS WERE UNIFORMED COMBATANTS PROTECTED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS. (caps not for you, Mikey, sorry).

There is no comparison.

None.

278 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:35:33pm

re: #257 Locker

Hooking up a car battery to someone's testicles might work as well but it doesn't make it right. We shouldn't torture. We shouldn't violate due process.

The "if X amount of people could be saved from torture" argument doesn't sway me to be honest. Don't know many of us who would accept that if it happened to be directed our way i.e. "If X amount of people could be saved if we throw your pet mongoose off the roof", etc.

If you think that waterboarding is equivalent to electrocution, you are wrong. Electrocution inflicts physocal pain; waterboarding induces psychological terror. And I'm okay with terrorising terrorists without inflicting pain upon them. They certainly possess no such qualms, so the argument that we thus become like them is an epic fail.

279 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:35:51pm

re: #273 philosophus invidius

At 79 posts over the last 5 years you need to be really careful. We don't know you here, and there have been plenty on the right arguing Obama is exactly what your comment would seem to argue he is.

280 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:36:12pm
281 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:36:28pm

re: #275 Dianna

Boy, are my (moral) cheeks red, then.

people who let others live their convictions should be the ones with red cheeks of shame

282 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:00pm

re: #272 Locker

Yes it is in the same category.. it's called torture.

Bzzzt.

Moral equivalence penalty. You are forbidden the use of the word torture for the remainder of the thread.

283 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:04pm

re: #277 OldLineTexan

Thank you! We have a winner! Why some people keep on insisting that the terrorists, insurgents, or jihadi freedom fighters are the same as uniformed combatants is well beyond me.

284 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:09pm

re: #261 Guy_Montag

Now you're just being silly -- I like silly. Blessed are you, who convert your neighbour's ox, for you shall inhibit their girth.

I'm not being silly..You come off here like we have gone soft on the war on terror..You little crybaby.. Nobody is stopping you from talking about the ROP here and your comment was silly pal...

285 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:14pm

re: #272 Locker

Yes it is in the same category.. it's called torture.

Jules, from Pulp Fiction:

Ain't no fucking ballpark neither. Now look, maybe your method of massage differs from mine, but you know touching his wife's feet and sticking your tongue in the holiest of holies ain't the same fucking ball park. It ain't the same league. It ain't even the same fucking sport. Look, foot massages don't mean shit.

286 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:21pm

re: #277 OldLineTexan

GERMAN POWS WERE UNIFORMED COMBATANTS PROTECTED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS. (caps not for you, Mikey, sorry).

There is no comparison.

None.

Except the infiltrators caught wearing our uniforms during the Bulge. They were executed. I have no problem with that.

287 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:37:29pm

re: #267 Guanxi88

We wouldn't want his pillar to get wobbly.

288 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:09pm
289 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:16pm

re: #271 OldLineTexan

Hmm. Due process for most if not all of the Gitmo crew would have been a firing squad.

Is that what you meant?

instead they got fat in the Caribbean sun, digging their PS3 and cablevision

290 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:23pm

re: #273 philosophus invidius

I hadn't planned on defending myself, but: I promise you that I meant #3 to be meant ironically. Perhaps I hit "post" too soon so I could be the first to comment, but it still seems to pretty obvious (to me) that a comment like that could not have been meant seriously. And if you look at my past comments (if that is possible) you can see that I have consistently taken a stand against bigotry on this site--even back in 2004 when it seemed that I was in the minority and there was a lot of talk about "Paleostinians" and what should be done to them. My name here

But there are morons registered here who would truly mean such comments; how are we not to know that you are not among them? Should we have to check the history of every poster?

Sarc tags: They're not just for breakfast any more.

291 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:29pm
292 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:32pm

This is just one prime example of why Obama had better listen to the seven former heads of the CIA when they tell him no mas on this asinine Holder investigation. We'll see what kind of backbone TOTUS has now, depending on whether or not he does the right thing or caves to the Moveon. org crazies.

293 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:38:45pm

re: #273 philosophus invidius

That's what PIMF and /sarc tags are for. Use them, they are your friends.

294 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:39:07pm

re: #286 Leonidas Hoplite

Except the infiltrators caught wearing our uniforms during the Bulge. They were executed. I have no problem with that.

Disguises are a specific no-no in the Conventions.

You bear arms openly, or ...

295 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:39:45pm

re: #261 Guy_Montag

You're the one who said it- you can elaborate on it or leave me to assume you're spreading LGF hater talking points. Your call.

296 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:39:51pm

re: #281 OldLineTexan

people who let others live their convictions should be the ones with red cheeks of shame

They only seem to get red with righteous indignation.

297 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #287 Dianna

We wouldn't want his pillar to get wobbly.

Oh, I do.

Here lies a toppled god
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and tall one.
Tleilaxu Epigram , Dune Messiah

298 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:40:24pm

Had enough of the latest passive aggressive troll. Bye now!

299 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:41:17pm

re: #289 albusteve

instead they got fat in the Caribbean sun, digging their PS3 and cablevision

i was all for it ... it has to piss fidel off

300 Coracle  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:41:17pm

re: #267 Guanxi88

Mossad techniques run the gamut, from simple conversation, through psychological tricks and so forth, all the way up to the sort of physical discomfort techniques the thought of which can tie people up in knots as "torture."

That said, if your objection to the enhanced techniques is on moral grounds, then say so; if on grounds of efficacy, then that's a different matter altogether. But to object on moral grounds alone would suffice; bringing in efficacy concerns would make a cynic think you're just utilitarian about it.

Fair enough. I object on both grounds. Morally, use of torture lowers us toward them. It makes an enemy fight harder for fear of it, recruit better because it can be used as another demonstration of our "evil", and make it more likely our own people will encounter it should they ever fall into enemy hands.

As for efficacy, the way I read the IG report was that it may have been effective in some instances, but not uniquely or exclusively so. If you can get the information and still retain the high ground that is better.

Lastly, even if I grant that waterboarding is indeed more effective, and more timely, which I do not, it is still torture, and still something we should not condone. If an individual interrogator is dead certain there's information hidden there, and he must extract it right now at any cost, he does what he believes and faces the music after. He may be vindicated by the saving of lives, but he - and any superiors who sanctioned him had better take personal responsibility for those actions.

I understand this may not be a popular opinion here. But it's where I stand. Now I'm off. HAve a good weekend, all.

301 Lee Coller  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:41:37pm

re: #298 Charles

Had enough of the latest passive aggressive troll. Bye now!

I guess that means we'll never find out what the new protocols are!

302 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:42:16pm

re: #283 endotoxin

Thank you! We have a winner! Why some people keep on insisting that the terrorists, insurgents, or jihadi freedom fighters are the same as uniformed combatants is well beyond me.

It's ignorance, and (were my Male not a former Naval officer) I might share it. The understanding of what makes a legal combatant has gotten badly obscured and rather murky in the past few years.

Some of that has been deliberate, but most has to do with the fact that most reporters are operating on about 5 minutes' study time for anything.

303 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:42:34pm

re: #300 Coracle

We are already evil, because we are not them.

It's in their by-laws.

304 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:42:49pm

re: #292 tradewind

My money is on cave. BTW, has Pelosi apologized to the CIA yet for calling them liars?

305 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:43:01pm

re: #299 OldLineTexan

i was all for it ... it has to piss fidel off

there we sit on his back forty...pissing off his ideological pals...hahaha!

306 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:43:19pm

re: #302 Dianna

It's ignorance, and (were my Male not a former Naval officer) I might share it. The understanding of what makes a legal combatant has gotten badly obscured and rather murky in the past few years.

Some of that has been deliberate, but most has to do with the fact that most reporters are operating on about 5 minutes' study time for anything.

You can read the Coventions on-line.

I did.

It was time well-spent, IMO.

307 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:43:42pm

re: #273 philosophus invidius

So #3 was sarc? Dang, I downdinged it.

308 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:43:43pm

re: #305 albusteve

there we sit on his back forty...pissing off his ideological pals...hahaha!

giving our enemies better shit than he has

309 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:44:11pm

re: #280 taxfreekiller

Oh, give him credit. It's sooo seventies.

310 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:44:47pm

re: #306 OldLineTexan

You can read the Coventions on-line.

I did.

It was time well-spent, IMO.

So did I, but only because I got tired of being lectured by my Male.

311 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:16pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

???

312 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:22pm

re: #307 Danny

So #3 was sarc? Dang, I downdinged it.

I think we all did. And I'm not going to go reverse my downding, either.

313 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:30pm

re: #266 Kosh's Shadow

Many Germans weren't as ideologically committed to Nazism as Jihadis are to their version of Islam. There were vast numbers of German military who did what they did due to patriotism or because they were ordered to. They would be more susceptible to gentler means of persuasion.

I understand and respect your point. However as a counterpoint, I think we do need to examine what sort of actionable intelligence we got from Abu Zubaydah, who was interrogated with a standard rapport building interrogation. I don't believe every Muslim is a fanatic bent on killing everyone else. Maybe we'd be better off simply focusing on the people who can be turned and accepting that the real hardcore fanatics should just be locked away and left to rot?

314 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:32pm

re: #290 Salamantis

re: #279 Lee Coller

fair enough.

315 albusteve  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:32pm

re: #308 OldLineTexan

giving our enemies better shit than he has

all the toilet paper they want...oooh rah!

316 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:45:58pm

re: #311 tradewind

???

He says he was being ironic.

317 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:46:09pm

re: #310 Dianna

So did I, but only because I got tired of being lectured by my Male.

i make mental notes to myself to stop talking when her eyes glaze over, and avoid geeking out

;)

318 Danny  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:46:12pm

re: #312 Dianna

Yeah, too far to scroll at this point.

319 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:46:15pm

re: #300 Coracle

As far as our primary source of actionable intel was concerned (Khalid Shaykh Mohammed), waterboarding was indeed uniquely and exclusively effective. We tried everything else we had in our bag of interrogation tricks before we resorted to it, and none of them worked.

320 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:46:26pm

re: #304 endotoxin

I hope you don't have any money on that...
She can't apologize. Her Sanctuary City constituents would stone her.

321 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:47:26pm

re: #318 Danny

Yeah, too far to scroll at this point.

Not really. I disapproved of the comment.

322 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:47:34pm

re: #300 Coracle

Fair enough. I object on both grounds. Morally, use of torture lowers us toward them. It makes an enemy fight harder for fear of it, recruit better because it can be used as another demonstration of our "evil", and make it more likely our own people will encounter it should they ever fall into enemy hands.

As for efficacy, the way I read the IG report was that it may have been effective in some instances, but not uniquely or exclusively so. If you can get the information and still retain the high ground that is better.

Lastly, even if I grant that waterboarding is indeed more effective, and more timely, which I do not, it is still torture, and still something we should not condone. If an individual interrogator is dead certain there's information hidden there, and he must extract it right now at any cost, he does what he believes and faces the music after. He may be vindicated by the saving of lives, but he - and any superiors who sanctioned him had better take personal responsibility for those actions.

I understand this may not be a popular opinion here. But it's where I stand. Now I'm off. HAve a good weekend, all.

To summarize, then:

1) Using a bit of controlled force, where there is no danger of death or permanent damage to the subject, in order to obtain information that can preclude the use of lethal force applied to unarmed civilians makes us the moral equivalent of those who would use the lethal force against the civilians in question;

2) Waterboarding may or may not have worked. The cases in which it is reported to have worked do not demonstrate that other techniques might not have produced similar results. While we all wait for the time machine to allow us to go back in time to test the alternatives, we are to remain opposed to what worked;

3) If it's what it takes, it what it takes, but the folks doing it are the ones with their necks out. Succeed or fail, they are subject to punishment for taking the actions necessary at the time.

Stances differ on these matters, of course.

323 cliffster  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:48:15pm

re: #313 bloodstar

I understand and respect your point. However as a counterpoint, I think we do need to examine what sort of actionable intelligence we got from Abu Zubaydah, who was interrogated with a standard rapport building interrogation. I don't believe every Muslim is a fanatic bent on killing everyone else. Maybe we'd be better off simply focusing on the people who can be turned and accepting that the real hardcore fanatics should just be locked away and left to rot?

And we're no just going around, picking up every Muslim and torturing them, either.

324 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:48:43pm

re: #164 Equable

Total classic! I loved that game. Can't forget Maniac Mansion too!

I've been a gamer for a really long time and games nowadays, though flashy and gorgeous don't just seem to have the same "awe factor" that they did when PC gaming first started to really blossom. Back then it was mostly geeks such as myself that could even get these games to run, so the content they wrote catered mostly to cats with my sense of taste.

It's partly why I still play Everquest (roll your eyes, I know). It's one of the first games of that type that blew me away and I tend to be a bit sentimental.

At any rate, if you like good gripping story lines and solving puzzles and have a penchant for mysteries the Tex Murphy series of games are without comparison.

Under A Killing Moon
The Pandora Directive
Tex Murphy: Overseer

Last post before I gotta go:

Ultima IV... LOVE that game.

325 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:48:44pm

re: #316 Dianna

Must have been a misprint, I read moronic.

326 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:48:51pm

re: #304 endotoxin

My money is on cave. BTW, has Pelosi apologized to the CIA yet for calling them liars?

Not the same..There are some words you can't say in a joint session of Congress to the President...It's like George Carlin's 7 words you can't say on TV...If I was in Congress I'd be checking that list out...Cause the Hoopster wants to know what words I can really say...
" Hey Obama! .blank ..blankity blank! you Blank!
/Ok...We wouldn't need term limits in my case...whoops!
*wink*

327 nikis-knight  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:48:57pm

re: #300 Coracle

KSM sang like a fiddle (yes, mixed metaphor) after being waterboarded, while giving little beforehand. The latest NR issue has a good piece by Rich Lowry on the recently released documents by CIA/DOJ/don't remember on how tightly interogations were controlled and how very effective they were.

You can still be against it, you can certainly not like it (who does?), but you can't pretend it didnt' save American lives.

328 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:49:21pm

re: #294 OldLineTexan

Disguises are a specific no-no in the Conventions.

You bear arms openly, or ...

And terrorists don't wear uniforms, so they are subject to a lot of things lawful combatants aren't.

329 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:49:27pm

re: #313 bloodstar

I understand and respect your point. However as a counterpoint, I think we do need to examine what sort of actionable intelligence we got from Abu Zubaydah, who was interrogated with a standard rapport building interrogation. I don't believe every Muslim is a fanatic bent on killing everyone else. Maybe we'd be better off simply focusing on the people who can be turned and accepting that the real hardcore fanatics should just be locked away and left to rot?

I don't want them locked away to rot with the consolation that they continued to harbor intel that could save thousands of innocent lives, and kept it from the hated infidels, to awaken with joy and anticipation each morning, hoping for news that their perfidious secret plots had reached bloody fruition.

But maybe that's just me. But I don't think so.

330 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:50:09pm

re: #322 Guanxi88

One thing's for sure... if waterboarding worked then, it sure as hell won't now. The perps have been fully briefed by their friends in the MSM that it won't kill 'em, so they can just hold on and tough it out.

331 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:50:21pm

re: #320 tradewind

No sir, gotta save my discresionary income for the upcoming Obama Tax Hikes, so we can pay for his health care reform and all that jazz, you know.

332 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:51:03pm

re: #325 tradewind

Must have been a misprint, I read moronic.

A matter of interpretation. I merely reported his assertion.

333 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:51:31pm

re: #332 Dianna

I know... I meant him.

334 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #313 bloodstar

I understand and respect your point. However as a counterpoint, I think we do need to examine what sort of actionable intelligence we got from Abu Zubaydah, who was interrogated with a standard rapport building interrogation. I don't believe every Muslim is a fanatic bent on killing everyone else. Maybe we'd be better off simply focusing on the people who can be turned and accepting that the real hardcore fanatics should just be locked away and left to rot?

Unfortunately, that can leave many innocent people rotting as well, assuming we can find all the remains.

335 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #330 tradewind

One thing's for sure... if waterboarding worked then, it sure as hell won't now. The perps have been fully briefed by their friends in the MSM that it won't kill 'em, so they can just hold on and tough it out.

I dunno - it's not something I'd want tried on me. That is but one of many reasons why I'm not a terrorist.

336 endotoxin  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:52:39pm

re: #326 HoosierHoops

I agree that Rep Wilson acted in poor taste and with little discretion, but the jist of what he had to say on the subject is about right. Did you see Obama's speech to the hispanic caucus I think yesterday, regarding illegal immigration?

337 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:53:07pm

re: #324 Oh no...Sand People!

Last post before I gotta go:

Ultima IV... LOVE that game.

The original Ultima on an Apple ][+. Line drawings of creatures that took several seconds to draw. But it was fun.

338 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:53:13pm

re: #331 endotoxin

I'm a little more relaxed on that score. It looks like TOTUS will get hardly more than some tweaking of insurance regs, and call it his healthcare reform.
Fine with me.

339 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:53:39pm

Is anyone else afraid to go to the next thread?

340 tradewind  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:55:31pm

re: #335 Guanxi88

See, military personnel from our side have had it tried on them. Voluntarily.
Not pleasant, but not fatal, either.
The problem now is with the perception. If they don't fear for their lives, what's the point?
Personally, I think we'd do better to work on psychological protocols that disabuse them of the seventy virgins thing.

341 Dianna  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:55:58pm

re: #335 Guanxi88

I dunno - it's not something I'd want tried on me. That is but one of many reasons why I'm not a terrorist.

(Very ironic; there needs to be an html tag for this)
Yeah, one of the very few things deterring us from slaughtering thousands of innocents is the fear of waterboarding...

//

I know exactly what you mean, and how sarcastic you are being, I just had one of those moments.

342 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:56:09pm

re: #330 tradewind

One thing's for sure... if waterboarding worked then, it sure as hell won't now. The perps have been fully briefed by their friends in the MSM that it won't kill 'em, so they can just hold on and tough it out.

That doesn't work. US servicepeople were given a word they were not supposed to repeat, then subjected to waterboarding while that word was demanded of them as part of their SERE training. Even though they knew that they would not be killed, the automatic terror response to what psychologically appears to be drowning was so effective and overwhelming that they invariably gave it up; the game was only in seeing how long they could endure it before breaking (never very long).

The taining was discontinued not because it inflicted permanent psychic damage upon them, but because many of them became demoralized that they were unable to resist it, and would have betrayed the country they dearly loved had it been used upon them by our enemies.

343 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 2:58:14pm

re: #340 tradewind

See, military personnel from our side have had it tried on them. Voluntarily.
Not pleasant, but not fatal, either.
The problem now is with the perception. If they don't fear for their lives, what's the point?
Personally, I think we'd do better to work on psychological protocols that disabuse them of the seventy virgins thing.

Keep working on the mind stuff, of course, but the genius of waterboarding is that very few indeed can prepare themselves for the sheer biological terror it inflicts. In many cases, the higher brain more or less wigs out because the lower brain centers are flooded with messages and indications of near-term death. Rare indeed in the Paul Atreides who can overcome the pain-box.

344 OldLineTexan  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:00:23pm

re: #339 Dianna

Is anyone else afraid to go to the next thread?

It's a masterful title.

OK, anything with "slapfight" is IMO funny.

345 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:03:15pm

re: #329 Salamantis

I don't want them locked away to rot with the consolation that they continued to harbor intel that could save thousands of innocent lives, and kept it from the hated infidels, to awaken with joy and anticipation each morning, hoping for news that their perfidious secret plots had reached bloody fruition.

But maybe that's just me. But I don't think so.

I understand and respect your viewpoint. This is one of those 'agree to disagree' issues I think.

346 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:31:23pm

re: #343 Guanxi88

Keep working on the mind stuff, of course, but the genius of waterboarding is that very few indeed can prepare themselves for the sheer biological terror it inflicts. In many cases, the higher brain more or less wigs out because the lower brain centers are flooded with messages and indications of near-term death. Rare indeed in the Paul Atreides who can overcome the pain-box.

And waterboarding isn't a Gom Jabbar of pain, but of fear.

347 Eowyn2  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 3:46:47pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But I gave them the proper form back in the last thread! WHY CAN'T THEY USE THE FORM?


Was that the tpc memo

348 Pingemi  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 4:18:14pm

re: #3 philosophus invidius

I have to say that was uncalled for. I don't play with buttons but the president is the man in charge and when there is something you don't like you hit him over it, but this is a success and possibly a very significant one.

For that the president and the administration needs to be praised and encouraged, not insulted in a rather despicable manner.

No matter what else is done in the next 3+ years if the president successfully defends the homeland and continues to press the war on terror then his first terms will in my opinion be an overall success.

349 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:04:42pm

re: #106 Charles

Agreed. There's a lot about the way this case developed that doesn't smell right.

I still wonder if it's tied in with the Canadian/Somali guy they found at the upscale hotel in Denver last summer with the pound of cyanide. I went looking for stuff about him yesterday and he was in poor mental and physical health, and announced to his family out of the blue that he was going to drive to CO...got a rental car from his dad's Thrifty rental place and took off. How he afforded a room in a pricey hotel or why he had $2500 cash on him when they found him wasn't ever explained or figured out from what I read.

350 avspatti  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:21:46pm

re: #13 teleskiguy

Being a native of the state of Colorado, this state does have a way of radicalizing people. Though most of the terror shit that goes down is purely local, with names like James Blanning, Marvin Heemeyer, Eric Harris and the like. al-Qaida in Colorado, however, is troubling for sure. I mean, if I were a terrorist, I'd hide out in towns like Steamboat Springs, Silverton, or Crested Butte. No one would even know what you were up to. Read about Neil Murdoch.

Silverton would work nicely. What about . . . where is that place with the dead cannibal? That might work.

351 avspatti  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:50:10pm

re: #202 Gus 802

There are. Couldn't help but notice that almost every article there today is about race in one form or another. They also have RS McCain linked up.

I haven't read anything over at Hot Air today, but it seems to me that practically EVERYBODY is talking about race lately. So much for the 'post-racial America'. Sad.

352 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 5:51:44pm

I'm mildly surprised that no one has mentioned this person.

I bet somebody is checking - very carefully - for possible connections.

353 coloradobuff  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 6:03:08pm

I'm glad the feds are starting to get to the bottom of this. I live less than two miles from Zazi, and my kids' schools are right down the road from him. If there are any others connected with this nearby, I hope they find them soon.

354 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 6:16:56pm

re: #351 avspatti

I haven't read anything over at Hot Air today, but it seems to me that practically EVERYBODY is talking about race lately. So much for the 'post-racial America'. Sad.

The definition of 'post-racial America' on the Internet:

Damn near every frigging post on a whole lotta blogs is racial.

355 avspatti  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 6:18:28pm

re: #28 snowcrash

Check the Denver Post site. I think I saw it there.

356 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Sep 18, 2009 11:55:19pm

I am getting back to this thread and finding all sorts of myths. So let's actually reference the Inspector General's report (pdf 157 pages)on enhanced interrogation techniques for actual facts -

Claim 1) "Thousands were tortured"

The report states on page 90 paragraph 222 that only 3 persons have been subjected to waterboarding. Waterboarding is the harshest of the techniques and is the one usually held up by critics as torture. Again - only applied to 3 individuals

There were other EITs which are itemized multiple times in the report. They are:

1) attention grasp (grabbing detainee by the collars and pulling him toward the interrogator)
2) walling (pushing the detainee against a specially built, injury proofed wall)
3) facial hold (holding the detainees head with both hands to force him to look at something)
4) facial slap (slapping the detainee with an open hand so as to get attention or humiliate)
5) cramped confinement (placing the detainee for a short period of time in a box which prevents him from lying down or being comfortable)
6) wall standing (standing in a position with hands against a wall - induces muscle fatigue)
7) stress positions (sitting and kneeling positions designed to induce muscle fatigue, such as sitting on the floor with your hands over your head)
8) sleep deprivation (keeping the detainee awake for a maximum of 72 hours)
9) insects placed in confinement box (placing harmless insect in a box with detainee)

These techniques and their effects on detainees are discussed in detail in appendix c of the report.

A careful reading of the report tells the reader the these techniques are applied in a succession so as to get the detainee to think that the Americans may indeed harm him and get the detainee to cooperate.

As such one can assume that techniques such as walling or facial slaps were enough to get many to cooperate. Perhaps this is the genesis of the claim that "thousands were tortured" when few find any of the techniques other than waterboarding to be "torture".

Claim 2) "These interrogation techniques did not yield intelligence any better than other techniques would have"

The report states on page 88 (paragraph 217) specific attacks that were foiled as a result of EITs and "in particular" the 3 detainees Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, Abu Zubaydah, Al nashiri and a 4th named Hambali.

The attacks foiled include -

* a plot to hijack a plane and fly it into Heathrow Airport
* an attack on the US Consulate in Karachi Pakistan
* a plot to hijack a plane and fly it into an LA skyscraper
* a plot to blow up US gas stations
* a plot to derail US trains
* a plot to cause suspension bridges in new York to collapse

The report states unequivocally (in the same paragraph) that "lives were saved" as a result.

On page 89, George Tenet (identified as DCI - Director Central Intelligence) is cited as saying that "the use of EITs has proven to be extremely valuable in obtaining enormous amounts of critical threat information from detainees who had otherwise believed they were safe from any harm in the hands of the Americans".


Claim 3) "the hypothetical justification for torture when an 'imminent threat' exists remains hypothetical."

Paragraph 222 states: "The waterboard has been used on three detainees: Abu Zubaydah, Al Nashiri and Khalid Shaykh Muhammad. [redacted] with the belief that each of the three detainees possessed perishable information about imminent threats against the United States."

Paragraphs 223, 224 and 225 then describe the level of cooperation and intelligence value coming from each of the detainees before and f=after the waterboard, with all three becoming cooperative afterward and with KSM making the dramatic shift.

[ More to follow ]

357 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:11:26am
358 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 10:18:48am

Another Spencer fan rears its ugly head!


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