GOP Congressman Roy Blunt: ‘Eliminate the Monkey Problem’

Politics • Views: 5,241

At the Family Research Council’s 2009 Values Voter Summit, Republican Congressman Roy Blunt (R-MO) blows the racist dog whistle with a “joke” about “eliminating the monkey problem.”

Clear, obvious racism? No. Just a little “nudge nudge, wink wink” to the almost exclusively white audience — and listen to their reaction.

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 9/19/09 1:53:48 pm:

Note that Tony Perkins, who introduced Blunt, gave a speech to the openly white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens in 2001. And when Perkins worked for Senator Woody Jenkins, he purchased a phone-bank list from former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke.

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616 comments
1 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:28:40pm

An anti gay bigot introducing a birther GOP congressman.
A lot of people rolling in their graves.

2 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:29:30pm

I dunno. He only mentions Al Franken, but it seems to me that he's caricaturing DC politicians in general with the monkey-golf ball story.

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:29:56pm

The Family Research Council is a far right Christian group affiliated with James Dobson that promotes creationism, theocratic goals, and the usual litany of extreme social conservative positions.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

4 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:30:12pm

Borderline. You can run the danger of being too politically correct IMO. Actually, I find the whole "Values Voters" concept more offensive that Blount's stupid story since they imply that anyone who doesn't belong to their group has no values.

5 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:30:12pm

I'm pretty sure the original telling of the joke most often was in Africa, not India. This was very carefully crafted.

6 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:31:23pm

re: #3 Charles
I have no use for Perkins, Dobson, Lamb. They hurt the GOP immensely.

7 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:31:45pm

The most generous interpretation possible of this "joke" is that it was incredibly tone-deaf for a highly-placed politician.

But I don't buy that. He was blowing that dog whistle and the crowd heard it.

8 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:31:47pm

Well, at least he didn't say macaca. :)

9 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:32:06pm

Charles, this is going too far. Just because someone tells a joke that may be construed as racist, and just because that person actually holds racist views doesn't mean that person can't continue to deny being a racist.

10 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:33:31pm

re: #3 Charles

Tony Perkins also spoke at the Council of Conservative Citizens, according to his article at Wikipedia.

11 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:34:12pm

re: #9 Gordon Marock

I think he was doing this intentionally. Even the audience groaned. He was pushing the line.

12 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:34:14pm

re: #10 erraticsphinx

Tony Perkins also spoke at the Council of Conservative Citizens, according to his article at Wikipedia.

That's right. The CCC is an openly white supremacist group.

13 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:34:37pm

re: #2 Danny

I dunno. He only mentions Al Franken, but it seems to me that he's caricaturing DC politicians in general with the monkey-golf ball story.

Is it 100% clear that he is calling Obama a monkey? No. Is it reasonably open to that interpretation. Yes. The idea that "playing the ball where the monkey throws it" being the way things happen in Washington certainly seems a very poor choice for an analogy with America's first black president being in office and a member of the opposite party. Could the golf course analogy have worked with having racist overtones in a different context? Yes. But context matters. I won't out and out call it racist, but I won't discount it either.

14 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:34:38pm

re: #9 Gordon Marock

Charles, this is going too far. Just because someone tells a joke that may be construed as racist, and just because that person actually holds racist views doesn't mean that person can't continue to deny being a racist.

Trying to figure out the double negative...

15 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:35:34pm

re: #14 debutaunt

Trying to figure out the double negative...

That's exactly what I was thinking! Jinx.

16 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:36:09pm

re: #13 Enkidu90046

Yeah, he's not exactly a political genius by any stretch.

17 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:36:35pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I think he was doing this intentionally. Even the audience groaned. He was pushing the line.

See post No. 14

18 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:37:33pm

re: #13 Enkidu90046

Is it 100% clear that he is calling Obama a monkey? No. Is it reasonably open to that interpretation. Yes. The idea that "playing the ball where the monkey throws it" being the way things happen in Washington certainly seems a very poor choice for an analogy with America's first black president being in office and a member of the opposite party. Could the golf course analogy have worked with having racist overtones in a different context? Yes. But context matters. I won't out and out call it racist, but I won't discount it either.

should have read:

"Could the golf course analogy have worked withOUT having racist overtones in a different context?"

19 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:38:37pm

It's interesting that the Family Research Council, a group which says it is concerned with respect for religion, holds their annual Values Voters Summit during Rosh Hashanah, one of the Jewish High Holidays.

Just can't imagine which religion they respect and which ones they don't.

20 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:39:09pm

I did not see any racism in that "joke" at all. How was that racist? If anything, he called Al Franken a monkey. Of course, everybody knows he not a monkey. He's an ass.

21 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:39:21pm

what the fuck did he just say

22 jvic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:39:45pm

re: #9 Gordon Marock

Charles, this is going too far. Just because someone tells a joke that may be construed as racist, and just because that person actually holds racist views doesn't mean that person can't continue to deny being a racist.

What yanked my chain was his saying, "You can't control everything you'd like to control."

Another limited-government Republican... /

23 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:41:46pm

Politicians of all people, especially now, should realize they are on an eggshell tightrope and wake up.

A wise man once told me to go with your gut...if your intuition even gives you the slightest hint of "hmm" you might want to go the other direction.

If only I had listened to that wise man more.

24 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:42:30pm

There is a very similar Japanese Proverb involving a Heron and a Jade Pendant, but I don't think Roy Blunt would know that one.

25 The Wizard, fkap  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:42:37pm

I'm betting that right now Blunt would give anything to have that 10 minutes of his life back.

26 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:42:37pm

Ok, I listened. I think it was a marginally funny joke with a marginal connection to politics today. I don't think it was racist.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

27 tokyobk  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:43:34pm

I prefer Obama's position to Carter's which is not to get too ruffled by insinuations and not to roll in the other guys mud.

Sure, there are racists and there are people who hate Obama for racist reasons.

I think in this case it was a statement open to poor interpretation and therefor a poor statement.

Stanley Crouch just wrote an interesting article about this.

28 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:43:53pm

re: #20 Desert Dog

I did not see any racism in that "joke" at all. How was that racist? If anything, he called Al Franken a monkey. Of course, everybody knows he not a monkey. He's an ass.

Even if you don't see it as intentionally racist, it was a stupid comment because it is reasonably susceptible to being interpreted that way given the context.

29 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:44:35pm

Definitely dog whistle.

This guy is not stupid.

30 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:44:46pm

re: #28 Enkidu90046

Even if you don't see it as intentionally racist, it was a stupid comment because it is reasonably susceptible to being interpreted that way given the context.

Stupid is as stupid does.

31 tokyobk  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:45:01pm

re: #24 Gordon Marock

There is a very similar Japanese Proverb involving a Heron and a Jade Pendant, but I don't think Roy Blunt would know that one.

There was an ad campaign recently where a monkey was dressed up as different famous people and when the character was figured as an Obama-like orator it caused an uproar for similar reasons.

32 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:45:16pm

re: #19 MJ

It's interesting that the Family Research Council, a group which says it is concerned with respect for religion, holds their annual Values Voters Summit during Rosh Hashanah, one of the Jewish High Holidays.

Just can't imagine which religion they respect and which ones they don't.

It's also the end of Ramadan today. I'm guessing that sort of slipped through the cracks that the FRC planning board meetings.

33 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:45:30pm

re: #19 MJ

It's interesting that the Family Research Council, a group which says it is concerned with respect for religion, holds their annual Values Voters Summit during Rosh Hashanah, one of the Jewish High Holidays.

Just can't imagine which religion they respect and which ones they don't.

Or at least, which one's they don't expect to have scheduling problems.

34 Bloodnok  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:45:49pm

Almost certainly a dog whistle. But hey, let the backflips and pretzel twisting commence!

35 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:04pm

re: #28 Enkidu90046

Too much PC is not good either. Today, shows like All in the Family with its great social commentary would not be possible. I don't think we are better for it.

36 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:16pm

Beware the lefties overplaying the race card...
KosKidz: Rep. Roy Blunt's racist "monkey joke" (Updated)

""Don't be intimidated out of this fight. President Carter said if you disagree with this president, it's somehow fundamentally racist in nature... That's not what this is about. And we can't be intimidated into believing that that's what this is about... You do have to play the ball where it's thrown in this case."

I don't think that quote is accurate.

And this one from TPM...
TX Board Of Ed Member: Minorities Must Be Thankful To 'The Majority' For Giving Them Rights!

In these clips, the seated officials are members of the GOP-majority board of ed. The woman standing up is the representative of the high school U.S. history textbook standards writng team. Keep in mind, the writing team is supposed to incorporate in its next revision of the standards the input of the board members.

First up, board member Don McLeroy explains the importance of recognizing how "the majority" has helped "minorities" like African-Americans and women. "For instance, the women's right to vote. ... The men passed it for the women."

If you watch the clip I think it's pretty clear that he's about votes, not ethnic minorities.

Make no mistake about it lefties are still idiots.

37 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:52pm

re: #34 Bloodnok

Almost certainly a dog whistle. But hey, let the backflips and pretzel twisting commence!

"dog whistle" is a new one on me...I assume it means saying something, without saying it?

38 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:47:33pm

You'd think people who were so sensitive to Bush being called "Chimpy" would be less callous.

39 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:02pm

If you folks don't believe that politicians like Blunt carefully calibrate these kinds of statements for their audience ... well, you're just dreaming.

The guy who introduced him, Tony Perkins, gave a speech to the openly white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens in 2001. And when Perkins worked for Senator Woody Jenkins, he purchased a phone-bank list from former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke.

40 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:03pm

This song is for these people, no matter what part of the country they're from, and I apologize to southern lizards in advance:

Youtube Video
41 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:42pm

re: #37 Desert Dog

It means saying something in a "coded" way that (mostly) only like-minded people will interptet.

42 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:56pm

re: #35 Chekote

Too much PC is not good either. Today, shows like All in the Family with its great social commentary would not be possible. I don't think we are better for it.

You obviously don't watch South Park.

43 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:49:24pm

re: #39 Charles

Let's say you are right. It was a dog whistle. What do you think Blount is calling the people in the audience to do?

44 tokyobk  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:49:28pm

re: #39 Charles

Apparently Strom Thurmond would literally whistle dixie when black staff and the few black congressmen/woman were in the elevator with him.

45 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:49:30pm

I wonder how much the white sheet franchise at this summit could rake in.

46 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:49:49pm

re: #9 Gordon Marock

Charles, this is going too far. Just because someone tells a joke that may be construed as racist, and just because that person actually holds racist views doesn't mean that person can't continue to deny being a racist.

Nice construction. Like the head-scratcher I sometimes I sometimes toss out to make 'em sweat: "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less."

47 Bloodnok  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:49:54pm

re: #37 Desert Dog

"dog whistle" is a new one on me...I assume it means saying something, without saying it?

It's saying something that people who are listening for it will understand. Call it code, call it overt. It's a little of both. It can often be missed by the general public, but it means something to the people for which it is intended.

48 drogheda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:50:25pm

re: #37 Desert Dog

"dog whistle" is a new one on me...I assume it means saying something, without saying it?

I'd expect it means saying things pitched in such a way that those whose ears aren't attuned to that pitch won't even hear what was said.

Like a dog whistle. People won't hear the dog whistle, but dogs are quite aware that the whistle was blown.

49 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:50:30pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

Beware the lefties overplaying the race card...
KosKidz: Rep. Roy Blunt's racist "monkey joke" (Updated)

If you watch the clip I think it's pretty clear that he's about votes, not ethnic minorities.

Make no mistake about it lefties are still idiots.

It's this entire GOTCHA syndrome both sides are infected with. The 24 hour news cycle, going from one gaff and misstep to the next. Each side waiting with the canned righteous indignation and "ah-ha's" at the ready. No wonder nothing can get done in Washington. It's more polarized than a pair of Foster Grants at high noon.

50 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:50:51pm

Let's admit what the "Family Research Council" is. It's an organization that seeks to establish a medieval theocracy based on its version of Christianity and wherein women are subservient to men. "Traditional values" = men dominating women and engaging in the same kind of behavior they condemn in "nontraditional values" people while using the TV name as cover.

51 Bloodnok  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:51:06pm

re: #47 Bloodnok

It's saying something that people who are listening for it will understand. Call it code, call it overt. It's a little of both. It can often be missed by the general public, but it means something to the people for which it is intended.

for whom PIMF

52 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:51:23pm

re: #37 Desert Dog

"dog whistle" is a new one on me...I assume it means saying something, without saying it?

Saying something in a tone only those with specially-tuned ears can hear.

Of course, some of us are gifted with super-hearing. I can still hear dog whistles. Real ones.

53 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:51:36pm

Growing up, I went to the WASPiest re: #46 Cato the Elder

Nice construction. Like the head-scratcher I sometimes I sometimes toss out to make 'em sweat: "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less."

Yeah, plus you can get some good posts going without getting piled on by everyone once they give it a second read.

54 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:51:48pm

re: #47 Bloodnok

It's saying something that people who are listening for it will understand. Call it code, call it overt. It's a little of both. It can often be missed by the general public, but it means something to the people for which it is intended.

Kind of like when I hear the words, "Oppression, Occupation, Social Justice, Equality" I can usually go with my gut and say, "meh, leftist..."

55 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:52:00pm

I wager we'll hear Limbaugh discuss this monkey analogy as not being racist at all within its context. All the while giggling over the implied racism within his own discussion. Then we'll read Ann Althouse state that Rush is right and liberals are again being played by Rush.

56 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:52:41pm

re: #52 Cato the Elder

Good boy, here's a biscuit.

57 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:53:21pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

You'd think people who were so sensitive to Bush being called "Chimpy" would be less callous.

Calling Bush a Chimp isn't racist. Calling Obama a monkey is. Context is everything. It is like calling someone "boy". It is insulting regardless of the race of who is being called "boy" but it is also dripping with racism if a White person calls a Black person that.

58 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:53:40pm

As a kid, I went to a super WASPY rich church. I heard plenty of code from many of the 'adults' at cofee hour.

59 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:14pm

re: #49 Desert Dog

AMEN! At this pace will all be suffering from outrage fatigue.

60 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:34pm

I guess I can't say "when monkeys fly out of butt" anymore for fear of being labeled a racist.

All jokes must be approved by the new Joke Czar. Please submit all jokes in writing to alljokesareracist.gov. This approval process may take several weeks.

Frankly, I'm fucking tired of the nitpicking on both sides.

61 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:36pm

re: #57 Enkidu90046

Calling Bush a Chimp isn't racist. Calling Obama a monkey is. Context is everything. It is like calling someone "boy". It is insulting regardless of the race of who is being called "boy" but it is also dripping with racism if a White person calls a Black person that.

Plus, Bush actually looks kinda Chimpy.

62 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:47pm

Have fun lizards.

63 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:55:03pm

re: #57 Enkidu90046

Calling Bush a Chimp isn't racist. Calling Obama a monkey is. Context is everything. It is like calling someone "boy". It is insulting regardless of the race of who is being called "boy" but it is also dripping with racism if a White person calls a Black person that.

And I get that. My point was that the right was upset by the "chimpy" label and has now disregarded their own sense of decency to embrace the same animalistic labeling because it does suit a racist angle.

64 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:56:54pm

Roy Blunt, eh? LoL.

65 JanglerNPL  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:57:14pm

Blunt's used the "monkey" anecdote before:(Search for "monkey" or "golf).

I kinda figured this was the case. It's rare a politician says something in a speech he or she hasn't said dozens of times before. I don't think it was racist, but he probably should have written it out of the speech.

66 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:57:46pm

re: #50 SFGoth

Let's admit what the "Family Research Council" is. It's an organization that seeks to establish a medieval theocracy based on its version of Christianity and wherein women are subservient to men. "Traditional values" = men dominating women and engaging in the same kind of behavior they condemn in "nontraditional values" people while using the TV name as cover.

I would have to see a document that comes out and says that explicitly to buy that. Provide me proof, and I will agree with you.

67 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:57:54pm

re: #63 Sharmuta

And I get that. My point was that the right was upset by the "chimpy" label and has now disregarded their own sense of decency to embrace the same animalistic labeling because it does suit a racist angle.

Right, but the big issue here is not what the fringe of either party says, the point is that true conservatives should not let the Family Research Council speak for conservatism. They should be called out.

68 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:58:10pm

re: #49 Desert Dog

It's this entire GOTCHA syndrome both sides are infected with. The 24 hour news cycle, going from one gaff and misstep to the next. Each side waiting with the canned righteous indignation and "ah-ha's" at the ready. No wonder nothing can get done in Washington. It's more polarized than a pair of Foster Grants at high noon.

Seriously, if you don't think this was meant in the way it was taken by the people it was meant for, you're asleep. "Gotcha", hell.

69 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:59:24pm

re: #67 Gordon Marock

Right, but the big issue here is not what the fringe of either party says, the point is that true conservatives should not let the Family Research Council speak for conservatism. They should be called out.

I agree. I think there are a number of groups that don't speak for conservatism that need to be called out, and thankfully we have some brave people who are willing to do just that.

70 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:59:50pm

re: #59 Chekote

AMEN! At this pace will all be suffering from outrage fatigue.

I am way passed that point.

But I am really surprised that when I say, "There is nothing under the sun that can surprise me from here on out for the rest of my life." A new level of low figures out a way to reveal itself and I have to lift up my politically battered form and go.."Huh...I was wrong." Then lay my weakened political bones on the ground surrounded by form letters, and automated responses from the time I wasted trying to 'do' something in the real world about it.

One day the tired poltical body will resume the 'doing' but right now I am the armchair quarterback.

71 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:01:30pm

re: #61 Gordon Marock

Plus, Bush actually looks kinda Chimpy.

We ALL look kinda chimpy. I blame Darwin. ;p

72 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:02:05pm

Sorry, having listened to the clip, I really don't see the racist angle. I think this is tantamount to putting words into his mouth. Let's not cry "wolf" when there is no wolf.

73 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:02:07pm

Taking this and the last thread together, I'd have to say that contrary to the bumper sticker, for some people Hate Is A Family Value.

74 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:02:39pm

re: #63 Sharmuta

And I get that. My point was that the right was upset by the "chimpy" label and has now disregarded their own sense of decency to embrace the same animalistic labeling because it does suit a racist angle.

Examples of bad animalistic labeling

Mary was like a bull in a china shop.
Joe looks dog tired today.
Sam has an eagle's eye for bargains.
My boss doesn't give a rat's ass what I think.
Hey, you guys stop monkeying around.

75 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:03:01pm

re: #72 MacDuff

Sorry, having listened to the clip, I really don't see the racist angle. I think this is tantamount to putting words into his mouth. Let's not cry "wolf" when there is no wolf.

Not "wolf". "Monkey".

"You have to play the ball where the monkey throws it."

Nah, nothing there.

76 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:03:21pm

re: #71 Sharmuta

We ALL look kinda chimpy. I blame Darwin. ;p

Nicely done.

77 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:03:48pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Seriously, if you don't think this was meant in the way it was taken by the people it was meant for, you're asleep. "Gotcha", hell.

zzz, hhmmp...zzz, what? huh? did you say something, Cato? I must be asleep, I don't see it. You may be right, I guess I need more of a direct statement and cannot hear the dog whistle on this one.

But, if do you not think this country is consumed with this "Gotcha" nonsense, then you are the snoozer, not I.

78 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:04:29pm

OT:

My Washington Huskies are doing a great job against mighty USC... 10-10 tie at halftime and the Huskies get the ball to open the second half...

GO HUSKIES!!!

79 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:04:55pm

Do value voters get a discount on something? I mean, I have a value card at CVS and it gives me 5% off...

I hate that somehow if you don't agree with them you don't have values.

80 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:04:59pm

re: #74 jorline

Examples of bad animalistic labeling

Mary was like a bull in a china shop.
Joe looks dog tired today.
Sam has an eagle's eye for bargains.
My boss doesn't give a rat's ass what I think.
Hey, you guys stop monkeying around.

Caro, stop being a jackass...opps there another one.

81 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:05:59pm

re: #49 Desert Dog

It's this entire GOTCHA syndrome both sides are infected with. The 24 hour news cycle, going from one gaff and misstep to the next. Each side waiting with the canned righteous indignation and "ah-ha's" at the ready. No wonder nothing can get done in Washington. It's more polarized than a pair of Foster Grants at high noon.

You said it brother. I just got SUCH a relief from watching this dude, Sam Tanenhaus, on PBS. Someone who actually has well thought out and interesting opinions and insights into Conservatism . A person who presents his opinion in a moderate tone at a normal volume.

It was SUCH a relief! I linked it on this thread if anyone needs a break from the hysteria.

82 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:06:21pm

re: #80 jorline

Caro, stop being a jackass...opps there another one.

Who is this "Caro" of whom you speak?

83 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:07:00pm

re: #80 jorline

Caro, stop being a jackass...opps there another one.

PIMF Cato...lmao

84 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:07:24pm

re: #81 Locker

Frankly, the only reasonable political analysis on television happens on PBS. Sad, but true. They get intelligent people to come on and actually discuss real issues and parse true information.

85 Norm Chumpsky  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:07:36pm

I see racists, they're everywhere...and they don't even know it!

86 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:07:52pm

I think the LGF comments section is infected with a little 'Gotcha' nonsense. That makes it fun!

87 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:08:08pm

Make no mistake; what we have here is a plausible deniability racist shout-out.

Except that I find the deniability to be quite implausible.

88 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:08:20pm

re: #82 Cato the Elder

Who is this "Caro" of whom you speak?

see my #83

89 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:08:46pm

re: #84 Cineaste

Frankly, the only reasonable political analysis on television happens on PBS. Sad, but true. They get intelligent people to come on and actually discuss real issues and parse true information.

You echo my feelings as well. Even though lots of what is said on PBS is upsetting to me I always feel better, smarter and more aware of things after I watch a show like Bill Moyers or The News Hour.

90 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:09:03pm

re: #66 vxbush

I would have to see a document that comes out and says that explicitly to buy that. Provide me proof, and I will agree with you.

Provide me proof of God and I will agree with you. We both take things on faith. Mine's borne out, as well, by the regular busting of "family values"-type guys caught cheating, hitting on other men, etc.

91 jvic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:10:58pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure the original telling of the joke most often was in Africa, not India. This was very carefully crafted.

I can't speak for the original telling of the joke, but the India version goes back at least as as far as 2001: see here, here, or here.

92 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:11:01pm

re: #85 Norm Chumpsky

I see racists, they're everywhere...and they don't even know it!

The problem is others not noticing it. Blunt isn't the only one who hides his racism behind code words. Other racists are quite clever and hide behind science- and unless you know about their codes, unless you know about their racist science- you have no idea you're listening to or reading a racist.

93 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #89 Locker

You echo my feelings as well. Even though lots of what is said on PBS is upsetting to me I always feel better, smarter and more aware of things after I watch a show like Bill Moyers or The News Hour.

I always feel better watching Moyers too. I need a good laugh to cut the tension and he always delivers.

94 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:11:16pm

re: #89 Locker

You echo my feelings as well. Even though lots of what is said on PBS is upsetting to me I always feel better, smarter and more aware of things after I watch a show like Bill Moyers or The News Hour.

I think Jim Lehrer is an honest and honarable newsman and one of a dying breed. I love their round tables and panels and I think that they have been enormously respectful to the troops. Every week since the day we started fighting they present the names and photos of the soldiers that passed away fighting for us. No commentary, no music, no pomp & circumstance. Just the pictures, names, ranks and ages over silence.

Everyone else feels compelled to turn war (or any other issue) into some kind of pageant...

95 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:11:48pm

re: #90 SFGoth

Provide me proof of God and I will agree with you. We both take things on faith. Mine's borne out, as well, by the regular busting of "family values"-type guys caught cheating, hitting on other men, etc.

I have a DVD containing absolute proof of the existence of God. I will send it to you for free. *($9.99 S&H)*.

96 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:12:37pm

re: #87 Salamantis

Make no mistake; what we have here is a plausible deniability racist shout-out.

Except that I find the deniability to be quite implausible.

Yep. There only has to be the slenderest schred of deniability and these creeps think they are off the hook. They apparently son't realise how blatantly obvious their racism appears to everyone else.

97 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:12:48pm

re: #85 Norm Chumpsky

I see racists, they're everywhere...and they don't even know it!

I'm a Pepper Racist. You're a Pepper Racist. Wouldn't you like to be a PepperRacist too?

98 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:04pm

re: #93 Desert Dog

I always feel better watching Moyers too. I need a good laugh to cut the tension and he always delivers.

You may disagree with him (I often do) but I seldom have the feeling that I'm being lied to. I just am being presented a view point that is of someone I have honest disagreement with.

I watch the other networks, most notably Fox, and I feel like they're just making shit up to get a rise - I mean, between Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly, where's the substance?

99 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:08pm

re: #95 Gordon Marock

I have a DVD containing absolute proof of the existence of God. I will send it to you for free. *($9.99 S&H)*.

Unfortunately, god broke my DVD player. Do you have it in VHS?

100 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:19pm

Not much different than the crypto-fascists in Europe- they love to obfuscate their bigotry so you don't catch it while they're busy mainstreaming their other stinky little ideas to you.

101 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:24pm

Gotta get dinner - back in a bit.

102 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:46pm

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Nigeria Wants Apology for Country's Depiction in 'District 9'

Saturday, September 19, 2009

AP
Actors Sharlto Copley, Mandla Gaduka and Kenneth Nkosi in a scene from 'District 9.'

ABUJA, Nigeria — One of the summer's biggest blockbusters — a sci-fi morality tale about aliens and apartheid — is not welcome in Nigeria because of its portrayal of Nigerians as gangsters and cannibals, Nigeria's information minister said Saturday.

Information Minister Dora Akunyili has asked movie houses in the capital of Abuja to stop screening "District 9" because the South Africa-based sci-fi movie about aliens and discrimination makes Nigerians look bad.

/Only if you stop emailing me...

103 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:13:55pm

re: #99 SFGoth

Unfortunately, god broke my DVD player. Do you have it in VHS?

Yes, but due to the increased size, shipping and handling is a bit higher.

104 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:14:12pm

re: #94 Cineaste

I think Jim Lehrer is an honest and honarable newsman and one of a dying breed. I love their round tables and panels and I think that they have been enormously respectful to the troops. Every week since the day we started fighting they present the names and photos of the soldiers that passed away fighting for us. No commentary, no music, no pomp & circumstance. Just the pictures, names, ranks and ages over silence.

Everyone else feels compelled to turn war (or any other issue) into some kind of pageant...

Funny you mention that photo book of our soldiers. My wife knows I normally avoid unpleasant stuff on tv, surgery channel, hoarders, etc. She saw me watching that and asked why since she knew it upset me.

I told her I had to do it. I read each name, rank and home town. Try to imagine for a minute who they were, how they grew up, hope for their family etc. It's amazing how a few simple pictures can deliver such a strong effect.

105 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:14:41pm

re: #97 jorline

I'm a Pepper Racist. You're a Pepper Racist. Wouldn't you like to be a PepperRacist too?

Wow, now I really want a Dr. Pepper.
I don't drink much soda, and almost never the sugary stuff, but when I was a kid and went to Camp Minnehaha (West Va), we'd have daily canteen privs and you could get a candy bar or a soda. I got the pepper and man, that tasted awesome. Probably didn't use HFCS back in the 70's.

106 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:15:13pm

re: #94 Cineaste

I think Jim Lehrer is an honest and honarable newsman and one of a dying breed. I love their round tables and panels and I think that they have been enormously respectful to the troops. Every week since the day we started fighting they present the names and photos of the soldiers that passed away fighting for us. No commentary, no music, no pomp & circumstance. Just the pictures, names, ranks and ages over silence.

Everyone else feels compelled to turn war (or any other issue) into some kind of pageant...

Jim Lehrer is old school...almost a relic from better, bygone years. With apologies to the Lizards that actually like Bill Moyers, I think he is a self-righteous twit who is about as wrong on most things that you can be. As for the rest of PBS, I enjoy watching the documentaries and science & nature shows. Ken Burns is the man.

107 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:15:35pm

re: #103 Gordon Marock

Yes, but due to the increased size, shipping and handling is a bit higher.

Unfortunately, you've priced me out. Maybe next time.

108 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:15:36pm

re: #104 Locker

Funny you mention that photo book of our soldiers. My wife knows I normally avoid unpleasant stuff on tv, surgery channel, hoarders, etc. She saw me watching that and asked why since she knew it upset me.

I told her I had to do it. I read each name, rank and home town. Try to imagine for a minute who they were, how they grew up, hope for their family etc. It's amazing how a few simple pictures can deliver such a strong effect.

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...

109 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:15:42pm

re: #105 SFGoth

Wow, now I really want a Dr. Pepper.
I don't drink much soda, and almost never the sugary stuff, but when I was a kid and went to Camp Minnehaha (West Va), we'd have daily canteen privs and you could get a candy bar or a soda. I got the pepper and man, that tasted awesome. Probably didn't use HFCS back in the 70's.

Pepper Rules; PiBB Drools!

110 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:16pm

re: #65 JanglerNPL
Nice find.

111 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:29pm

re: #108 Cineaste

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...

Very cool. Thanks for the link and congratulations.

112 Linden Arden  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:34pm

The Rite of Passage in the GOP now includes sucking up to the FRC and Bob Jones University - ask neutered John McCain vintage 2008.

I was a donor to William Weld - the former GOP governor of Massachusetts who slashed spending a great deal there and was popular enough to nearly win a Senate seat there later.

Who ended his political career?

Jesse Helms did when Clinton tried to appoint him Ambassador to Mexico.

Helms hated the "nawthun libruls" who did not dance his to his brand of social conservatism.

113 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:37pm

After the shit we've seen from hot air- joking about being a racist just isn't that funny anymore.

114 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:45pm

The reality is that Roy Blunt is attempting to position himself as an outsider with this ridiculous joke. He talks about Al Franken as though he is a new phenomenon when Roy Blunt himself is just another entrenched congressman who has been in DC for 12 years in 2009.

115 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:16:59pm

re: #106 Desert Dog

Jim Lehrer is old school...almost a relic from better, bygone years. With apologies to the Lizards that actually like Bill Moyers, I think he is a self-righteous twit who is about as wrong on most things that you can be. As for the rest of PBS, I enjoy watching the documentaries and science & nature shows. Ken Burns is the man.

That's fair enough. But I think it's good for us as a society that PBS is there. What other network presents that amount of great documentary work? I was really upset a couple years back when some in Congress were trying to cut funding for it.

116 sagehen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:17:05pm

re: #19 MJ

It's interesting that the Family Research Council, a group which says it is concerned with respect for religion, holds their annual Values Voters Summit during Rosh Hashanah, one of the Jewish High Holidays.

Just can't imagine which religion they respect and which ones they don't.


And last year when they hosted a candidates forum during the primaries... it was on Passover.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Don't let this in any way make you doubt their sincere love for Israel and its people.

117 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:17:06pm

re: #106 Desert Dog

Jim Lehrer is old school...almost a relic from better, bygone years. With apologies to the Lizards that actually like Bill Moyers, I think he is a self-righteous twit who is about as wrong on most things that you can be. As for the rest of PBS, I enjoy watching the documentaries and science & nature shows. Ken Burns is the man.

Yeah, that Bill Moyers is quite a guy:

Bill Moyers Rants Against Israel — And Jews

[Link: www.camera.org...]

118 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:17:13pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

I agree. I think there are a number of groups that don't speak for conservatism that need to be called out, and thankfully we have some brave people who are willing to do just that.

The Famil Research Council and their ilk don't just speak for conservatism. They are conservatism. Maybe not conservatism as it should be or could be or would be, but conservatism as it in fact is, today in the United States. I think conservatives would say that those who reject the Family research Council, etc..., need to be called out.

119 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:17:15pm

re: #111 Locker

Very cool. Thanks for the link and congratulations.

Thank you.

120 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:18:15pm

This explains everything:

Huckabee wins strawpoll at Value Voters Summit

/?

121 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:18:35pm

re: #116 sagehen

And last year when they hosted a candidates forum during the primaries... it was on Passover.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Don't let this in any way make you doubt their sincere love for Israel and its people.

Ironically today was German Day in NYC. There was a parade of marchers waving German flags on Fifth ave right outside all the synagogues. I know it was a coincidence but really...?

At least it's not Yom Kippur...

122 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:18:52pm

re: #91 jvic

Ah, It's not surprising that there are several versions. It's one of those jokes that can be personalized with details about how they try to solve the problem, etc.

123 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:19:21pm

Roy Blunt

Trips by staffers

In July 2006, a study by the Center for Public Integrity, American Public Media, and the Northwestern University’s Medill News Service concluded that Blunt’s staff spent over $385,000 on trips over the previous five-and-a-half years. The destinations included Switzerland, Hawaii, Florida, Austria, Amsterdam, Russia, California, and France. The study found that over this period, members of Congress and their aides took at least 23,000 trips valued at almost $50 million.

124 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:19:27pm

re: #108 Cineaste

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...

Very, very nice Cineaste!

125 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:19:37pm

re: #106 Desert Dog

Jim Lehrer is old school...almost a relic from better, bygone years. With apologies to the Lizards that actually like Bill Moyers, I think he is a self-righteous twit who is about as wrong on most things that you can be. As for the rest of PBS, I enjoy watching the documentaries and science & nature shows. Ken Burns is the man.

Serious question DD.. can you give me a more specific example regarding Bill Moyers about something you didn't like or why you think he's self-righteous? Not for me to challenge but just to understand better as I really, really like him and agree with on almost everything and think he's about as right as you can be on the subjects he covers.

That being said I never really feel like he offers much of an opinion directly. He lets his guests talk for long, long periods of time. He plays the devils advocate and asks the real questions on the other side of the issue. I really, like him... yea I know I already said that.

Thanks man I will not bag on you I'm just trying to understand.

126 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:20:05pm

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, that piece was financed by WGBH Boston which is part of PBS. Obviously I have fond feelings for them.

/ end self promotion /

127 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:20:20pm

re: #124 Desert Dog

Very, very nice Cineaste!

thank you

128 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:21:20pm

re: #108 Cineaste

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...

I like your film, Cineaste. My mom's brother also fought in the Black Forest. He was in the 83rd Division.

129 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:21:27pm

re: #123 Gus 802

Roy Blunt

Trips by staffers

I'd be suprised if any Congress critter & staff were any different.
SIGH.
Out tax dollars hard at work.

130 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:21:30pm

re: #108 Cineaste

Neat clip.

131 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:21:44pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

Ah, It's not surprising that there are several versions. It's one of those jokes that can be personalized with details about how they try to solve the problem, etc.

Not to take away any of the steam here...but EVERY DAMNED JOKE in the world has SEVERAL VERSIONS! Not a single person since Adam / The Big Bang (take your pick) has told a joke they have heard exactly as they heard it.

132 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:22:51pm

re: #131 Oh no...Sand People!

Not to take away any of the steam here...but EVERY DAMNED JOKE in the world has SEVERAL VERSIONS! Not a single person since Adam / The Big Bang (take your pick) has told a joke they have heard exactly as they heard it.

How many Sand People does it take to...

133 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:22:52pm

re: #128 Danny

I like your film, Cineaste. My mom's brother also fought in the Black Forest. He was in the 83rd Division.

My Grandfather was chief surgeon from the 102nd Evac Hospital there. Every year on the anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge he would climb into bed with my grandmother wearing sweaters, socks & a hat and would shiver to his core the whole night.

134 Cineaste  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:23:35pm

Alright peeps - I have to run - have a great afternoon - those on the east coast - enjoy the weather!

135 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:23:57pm

re: #134 Cineaste

Peace Cin.

136 Pullus Iulius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:24:22pm

re: #131 Oh no...Sand People!

Very well, then. You shall have roo roo.

137 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:24:47pm

re: #129 Floral Giraffe

I'd be suprised if any Congress critter & staff were any different.
SIGH.
Out tax dollars hard at work.

Yeah, there's more on Blunt. Still looking. Whenever these politicians try to paint themselves as outsiders I just have to laugh. Especially ones that have been there for several terms.

Blunt started his political career in 1972. Essentially he's been living "on the dole" from government funded salaries and benefits. Of course this includes his current gold plated congressional health insurance and soon to be retirement benefits. No doubt he claims to be against "socialized" anything even though his career has been a de facto socialized experience.

138 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:25:50pm

Use to be racist was a sarc tag around here.

Now it's mud slinging that's sticking on the wall.

139 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:26:14pm

re: #108 Cineaste

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...

Bravo. Bravo.

140 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:26:43pm

re: #90 SFGoth

Provide me proof of God and I will agree with you. We both take things on faith. Mine's borne out, as well, by the regular busting of "family values"-type guys caught cheating, hitting on other men, etc.

Finding evidence of what position FRC supports should be much easier than finding proof of God. They have a whole web site.

I have no doubts that people disagree with FRC's position. And there are numerous hypocrites to all causes. But you presented a position about what FRC believes. If that is indeed their position, you should be able to provide documentation of the same. Otherwise, your comment is simply your opinion of what FRC believes.

141 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:27:27pm

re: #138 jorline

Use to be racist was a sarc tag around here.

Now it's mud slinging that's sticking on the wall.

I can't speak for LGF history but I too am hopeful that the percentage of forward moving/positive discussions will increase.

142 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:27:59pm

Gotta go to sleep all.

Later!

143 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:28:30pm

re: #125 Locker

Serious question DD.. can you give me a more specific example regarding Bill Moyers about something you didn't like or why you think he's self-righteous? Not for me to challenge but just to understand better as I really, really like him and agree with on almost everything and think he's about as right as you can be on the subjects he covers.

That being said I never really feel like he offers much of an opinion directly. He lets his guests talk for long, long periods of time. He plays the devils advocate and asks the real questions on the other side of the issue. I really, like him... yea I know I already said that.

Thanks man I will not bag on you I'm just trying to understand.

I can respect Bill Moyers for his consistency. He has not changed his views over the years. It is more of the manner he delivers his opinions that bothers me. His views on everything from the economy, war, foreign policy and everything in between are opposite from mine. I resent his holier-than-thou attitude, I guess.

144 jamgarr  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:28:41pm

What a stupid, stupid thing to say!!

145 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:30:28pm

I thought the Scopes trial eliminated the monkey problem

146 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:31:43pm

re: #137 Gus 802

Yeah, there's more on Blunt. Still looking. Whenever these politicians try to paint themselves as outsiders I just have to laugh. Especially ones that have been there for several terms.

Blunt started his political career in 1972. Essentially he's been living "on the dole" from government funded salaries and benefits. Of course this includes his current gold plated congressional health insurance and soon to be retirement benefits. No doubt he claims to be against "socialized" anything even though his career has been a de facto socialized experience.

I think the idea is, if you're a politician, pretend you're as angry as your constituentcy, rail against Washington, and above all repeat over and over that you're an outsider. Pretty soon the media will start using your name in conjunction with the word "outsider" and your voters will believe you're an outsider.

147 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:32:58pm

re: #143 Desert Dog

I can respect Bill Moyers for his consistency. He has not changed his views over the years. It is more of the manner he delivers his opinions that bothers me. His views on everything from the economy, war, foreign policy and everything in between are opposite from mine. I resent his holier-than-thou attitude, I guess.

The above brings me more understanding for some reason. When he (Bill Moyers) does give his opinion it seems to be rooted strongly in morality and he presents it as such. If I felt the opposite of him strongly then it would probably seem to me as if he were indicating that I was being immoral in my position.

Am I receiving properly?

148 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:36:37pm

re: #143 Desert Dog

I can respect Bill Moyers for his consistency. He has not changed his views over the years. It is more of the manner he delivers his opinions that bothers me. His views on everything from the economy, war, foreign policy and everything in between are opposite from mine. I resent his holier-than-thou attitude, I guess.

PBS’s Bill Moyers Goes Anti-Semite

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

Yup. Jews are genetically encoded to violence.
Oh, and that Norwegian doctor Moyers put so much faith in, see the posts on LGF.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

How about hunting down gays?

The Intolerable Smugness of Bill Moyers
[Link: www.slate.com...]

Many links in the article by Shafer.

149 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:37:57pm

re: #146 Flyers1974

I think the idea is, if you're a politician, pretend you're as angry as your constituentcy, rail against Washington, and above all repeat over and over that you're an outsider. Pretty soon the media will start using your name in conjunction with the word "outsider" and your voters will believe you're an outsider.

I know, like they say, a sucker is born every minute. Never mind that I am finding some suspect information on him taking campaign contribution from "Turkish entities." He received an F- from the Armenian National Committee in 2008. I am not very familiar with the Armenian issue.

150 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:40:26pm
151 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:41:09pm

Buh-bye!

152 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:42:11pm

re: #150 cubbydave44

"Look at me Daddy...LOOK LOOK LOOK!!!"

/jackass

153 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:42:24pm

re: #151 Charles

Buh-bye!


I hit the New Comments button and it was already gone!! Geez, Charles, DECAF!!
/

154 mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:43:04pm

I didn't think that story about the monkeys at the golf course had anything to do with race. To be on the safe side I guess no white politician should ever use the word monkey in any story, anecdote or analogy. Because as soon as the word "monkey" is uttered for any reason someone will think its racist.

155 KernelPanic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:43:14pm

re: #149 Gus 802

I know, like they say, a sucker is born every minute. Never mind that I am finding some suspect information on him taking campaign contribution from "Turkish entities." He received an F- from the Armenian National Committee in 2008. I am not very familiar with the Armenian issue.

The "armenian issue" is near and dear to my heart. Blunt is one of a number of US pols who conveniently become genocide apologists after taking money from Turkish sources.

156 Desert Dog  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:43:34pm

re: #147 Locker

The above brings me more understanding for some reason. When he (Bill Moyers) does give his opinion it seems to be rooted strongly in morality and he presents it as such. If I felt the opposite of him strongly then it would probably seem to me as if he were indicating that I was being immoral in my position.

Am I receiving properly?

yes, exactly

157 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:43:45pm

re: #149 Gus 802

I know, like they say, a sucker is born every minute. Never mind that I am finding some suspect information on him taking campaign contribution from "Turkish entities." He received an F- from the Armenian National Committee in 2008. I am not very familiar with the Armenian issue.

The Turks deny they participated in ethnic cleansing when they very much did so.

158 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:44:01pm

re: #153 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hit the New Comments button and it was already gone!! Geez, Charles, DECAF!!
/

Gone in 60 Seconds.

159 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:44:21pm

re: #153 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hit the New Comments button and it was already gone!! Geez, Charles, DECAF!!
/

Charles must be slipping the hamsters some 'roids here lately... ;-P

160 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:45:04pm

re: #155 KernelPanic

The "armenian issue" is near and dear to my heart. Blunt is one of a number of US pols who conveniently become genocide apologists after taking money from Turkish sources.

That's what it looked like. Taking money from "Turkish interests" and then consistently voting against the Armenians. Those are some "values" Blunt has.

161 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:45:52pm

re: #73 Cato the Elder

Taking this and the last thread together, I'd have to say that contrary to the bumper sticker, for some people Hate Is A Family Value.

That's even worse than Addams Family Values.

162 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:46:33pm

re: #149 Gus 802

I know, like they say, a sucker is born every minute. Never mind that I am finding some suspect information on him taking campaign contribution from "Turkish entities." He received an F- from the Armenian National Committee in 2008. I am not very familiar with the Armenian issue.

Hitler referenced the Turks genocide and the subsequent "so what" regarding the world's attitude towards atrocities. I'll try and find the quote and context.

163 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:46:41pm

re: #148 MJ

PBS’s Bill Moyers Goes Anti-Semite

[Link: noblesseoblige.org...]

Yup. Jews are genetically encoded to violence.
Oh, and that Norwegian doctor Moyers put so much faith in, see the posts on LGF.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

How about hunting down gays?

The Intolerable Smugness of Bill Moyers
[Link: www.slate.com...]

Many links in the article by Shafer.

MJ you may have led off with the wrong link. I gave you the benefit of the doubt so I clicked the first link and tried to read the first point. That's as far as I could go as the argument goes like this:

1. Bill Moyers uses the words "state terrorism" in sentence.
2. Author accuses Bill Moyers of agreeing with the policies of someone else in India because that person used the same two words.

It would take me exactly 10 seconds of taping anything you say to find another person who uses some words you did and enjoys shooting kittens out of a sling shot.

There is more but the grand coup is this article attacking Bill Moyers as an anti-semite for saying:

So God-soaked violence became genetically coded. (6) A radical stream of Islam now seeks to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth. Israel misses no opportunity to humiliate the Palestinians with checkpoints, concrete walls, routine insults, and the onslaught in Gaza. As if boasting of their might, Israel defense forces even put up video of the explosions on YouTube for all the world to see. A Norwegian doctor there tells CBS, “It’s like Dante’s Inferno. They are bombing one and a half million people in a cage.”

Someone criticizing this or that Israeli military policy doesn't make them an anti-semite and to claim so is dishonest. I reject similar arguments that protesting war makes someone un-American.

164 KernelPanic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:51:38pm

re: #160 Gus 802

That's what it looked like. Taking money from "Turkish interests" and then consistently voting against the Armenians. Those are some "values" Blunt has.

My family was almost wiped out by the Turks in 1918 during the attempted genocide. Two survivors made it to Greece where they made a life for a few decades only to have things ripped up again when the Turks invaded Cyprus and converted their home into a military installation.

The two other 1918 survivors went to America and settled in Cleveland, OH at which point the family history became much happier and far more stable.

I've watched every US President of the last two decades lie to me and mine about recognizing the Armenian Genocide while they run for office only to backtrack for geopolitical reasons once elected. It's getting tiresome.

165 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:52:19pm

re: #163 Locker

Someone criticizing this or that Israeli military policy doesn't make them an anti-semite and to claim so is dishonest. I reject similar arguments that protesting war makes someone un-American.

Thing is, though, Israel really is in an existential struggle with its neighbors, some of whom use the Palestinian people as sacrificial lambs and/or shock-troops to wage a decades' long war with the stated goal of destroying the state of Israel. Moderates argue that Israel can be destroyed without necessitating the genocide of the Jewish population, while others adopt a slightly more radical stance.

In these cases, neutrality, or the willingness to "see the other side" amounts to a de facto endorsement of the opposition. Neutrality or even-handedness in a struggle such as this is objectively indistinguishable from support for the aggressors. And as the aggressors are either motivated by, or make shrewd use of, anti-Semitism, it is easy to understand how Moyers' comments could be construed as anti-Semitic, supporting, as they do, a cause with deep roots in anti-Semitism.

166 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:52:30pm

re: #75 Cato the Elder

Not "wolf". "Monkey".

"You have to play the ball where the monkey throws it."

Nah, nothing there.

I respectfully disagree. If we perceive every thing as racist, whether that is the intention or not, then nothing will be racist. We run the risk of dilution of the word. Just like "Nazi", once everyone, left and right. use the term "Nazi" with reckless abandon, the it dilutes the real meaning of "Nazi".

When all of the powerful words are diluted to jargon, how will we communicate the nature of evil?

167 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:53:32pm

re: #165 Guanxi88

Thing is, though, Israel really is in an existential struggle with its neighbors, some of whom use the Palestinian people as sacrificial lambs and/or shock-troops to wage a decades' long war with the stated goal of destroying the state of Israel. Moderates argue that Israel can be destroyed without necessitating the genocide of the Jewish population, while others adopt a slightly more radical stance.

In these cases, neutrality, or the willingness to "see the other side" amounts to a de facto endorsement of the opposition. Neutrality or even-handedness in a struggle such as this is objectively indistinguishable from support for the aggressors. And as the aggressors are either motivated by, or make shrewd use of, anti-Semitism, it is easy to understand how Moyers' comments could be construed as anti-Semitic, supporting, as they do, a cause with deep roots in anti-Semitism.

Seeing the other side isn't the same as supporting the other side. Right?

168 sagehen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:54:01pm

re: #108 Cineaste

You might enjoy this piece. It's a film I made, which won an Emmy Award, told in simple photos. It's only 3 minutes...


Nicely done. I feel like I know him.

169 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:54:20pm

re: #167 Locker

Seeing the other side isn't the same as supporting the other side. Right?

In some cases, it is very close, indeed. I'd point out that part of the confusion could arise because many who support the other side use the pretext of neutrality or "seeing both sides" as cover.

170 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:55:05pm

re: #10 erraticsphinx

Tony Perkins also spoke at the Council of Conservative Citizens, according to his article at Wikipedia.


And that was in what century?

Meaning that things that were just more or less shadowy tendencies somewhat earlier on are shaping up into concrete realities with warp speed today...

And Perkins was a conservative - but nothing like the things that are creeping out of the woodwork right now...

171 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:55:20pm

re: #167 Locker

Seeing the other side isn't the same as supporting the other side. Right?

To invoke an over-used example:

To be neutral during World War II was to support the Axis.

172 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:55:54pm

re: #162 Flyers1974

Hitler referenced the Turks genocide and the subsequent "so what" regarding the world's attitude towards atrocities. I'll try and find the quote and context.

[Link: www.historywiz.com...]

173 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:56:48pm

re: #171 Guanxi88

With us or against us. Black and white.

174 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:57:52pm

There are a whole series of statist paleo-ideological precepts that many on the right regard as essential to "taking this country back" to some mythic time in the past.

The notion of a safer, healthier and culturally pure past fuels the Culture Wars. The output is a mix of creationism, Christian moralizing, suspicion of science (and the changes it drives like vaccines) and - yes - racism. Racism is a big part of this country's past and trip back in time makes issues of racism unavoidable. The standard disclaimer you get from these rigid SoCon "restorationists" is to insist that their vision isn't racist - it is just that everyone has to play by the old set of social rules. So you get absurd contradictions like Stacy McCain expressing revulsion at mixed marriages and then declaring that revulsion (in the next sentence) as "NOT RACIST".

And such instances show that one isn't that sensitive to the charge if he doesn't suspect it to be true.

175 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:57:52pm
176 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:57:59pm

re: #163 Locker

Someone criticizing this or that Israeli military policy doesn't make them an anti-semite and to claim so is dishonest. I reject similar arguments that protesting war makes someone un-American.

Locker, I don't really give a damn what you think. Got that.

You defend Glenn Greenwald, a guy who writes for Pat Buchanan's American Conservative magazine; a guy who appears on Justin Raimondo's Anti-War Radio show; a guy who defends Ron Paul; a guy who writes for Lew Rockwell.
Naturally, Greenwald defended Moyers outrageous statements.

I would provide links but the post would be deleted by Charles for linking to hate sites.

Here's Abe Foxman on Bill Moyers Israel statements:

Mr. Moyers,

In less than a thousand words, you managed to fit into your January 9 commentary: (1) moral equivalency between Hamas, a radical Islamic terrorist group whose anti-Semitic charter cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East and perhaps America’s greatest ally in the world; (2) historical revisionism, asserting that Canaanites were Arabs; (3) anti-Semitism, declaring that Jews are “genetically coded” for violence; (4) ignorance of the terrorist threat against Israel, claiming that checkpoints, the security fence, and the Gaza operation are tactics of humiliation rather than counter-terrorism; and (5) promotion of an individual, the Norwegian doctor in Gaza, who has publicly expressed support for the September 11 attacks.

I have seen and read serious critiques of Israel’s military campaign in Gaza, and I have disagreed with many of them. Your commentary, however, is different, consisting mostly of intellectually and morally faulty claims that do a great disservice to the PBS audience. It invites not disagreement, but rebuke.

On one point you are correct – “America has officially chosen sides.” And rightly so. Fortunately for our nation, very few of our citizens engage in the same moral equivalency, racism, historical revisionism, and indifference to terrorism as you. If the reverse held, it would not be a country that any decent person would want to live in.

Sincerely,

Abraham H. Foxman
National Director
Anti-Defamation League

Locker, you obviously have a problem with Israel.

177 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:58:38pm

re: #171 Guanxi88

To invoke an over-used example:

To be neutral during World War II was to support the Axis.

Id also like to see an explanation of how the Irish state supported the Axis. Preferably backed with sources.

178 Right Brain  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:59:49pm

Anyone who has been to India knows that this is not likely meant as a racist story, monkeys have taken over some areas so completely his "play the ball where the monkey throws it," is most likely to be true. A rule made by the darker-than-Obama residents of Delhi who never thought it could mean they were monkeys.

Youtube Video
179 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:00:05pm

Looks like another case of poor reading comprehension on the part of some people. If you scroll to the top you'll find that it reads:

Clear, obvious racism? No. Just a little “nudge nudge, wink wink” to the almost exclusively white audience — and listen to their reaction.

180 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:00:10pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure the original telling of the joke most often was in Africa, not India. This was very carefully crafted.

Not that it means anything regarding Blunt's usage, but the Golfing with Monkeys "joke" appears to come from a sermon written by a Presbyterian preacher named Gregory Knox Jones. The story, as written by Jones anyway, is set in India, not Africa.

181 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:00:18pm

re: #170 ryannon

And that was in what century?

Meaning that things that were just more or less shadowy tendencies somewhat earlier on are shaping up into concrete realities with warp speed today...

And Perkins was a conservative - but nothing like the things that are creeping out of the woodwork right now...

Oh shit.

Wrong Perkins.

Got. to. keep. my. eyes. on. that. ball.

182 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:00:26pm

re: #171 Guanxi88

To invoke an over-used example:

To be neutral during World War II was to support the Axis.

Good example... one that I was planning on using...

To invoke an overused quote:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

--Sir Edmund Burke

183 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:00:59pm

O/T alert
Just please. Really??
No wonder Pelosi is such a raving moonbat: Look who she represents:
This has nothing to do with the merits of soda, btw: it's the principle.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

184 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:01:21pm

re: #176 MJ

Locker, I don't really give a damn what you think. Got that.

You defend Glenn Greenwald, a guy who writes for Pat Buchanan's American Conservative magazine; a guy who appears on Justin Raimondo's Anti-War Radio show; a guy who defends Ron Paul; a guy who writes for Lew Rockwell.
Naturally, Greenwald defended Moyers outrageous statements.

I would provide links but the post would be deleted by Charles for linking to hate sites.

Here's Abe Foxman on Bill Moyers Israel statements:

Mr. Moyers,

In less than a thousand words, you managed to fit into your January 9 commentary: (1) moral equivalency between Hamas, a radical Islamic terrorist group whose anti-Semitic charter cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East and perhaps America’s greatest ally in the world; (2) historical revisionism, asserting that Canaanites were Arabs; (3) anti-Semitism, declaring that Jews are “genetically coded” for violence; (4) ignorance of the terrorist threat against Israel, claiming that checkpoints, the security fence, and the Gaza operation are tactics of humiliation rather than counter-terrorism; and (5) promotion of an individual, the Norwegian doctor in Gaza, who has publicly expressed support for the September 11 attacks.

I have seen and read serious critiques of Israel’s military campaign in Gaza, and I have disagreed with many of them. Your commentary, however, is different, consisting mostly of intellectually and morally faulty claims that do a great disservice to the PBS audience. It invites not disagreement, but rebuke.

On one point you are correct – “America has officially chosen sides.” And rightly so. Fortunately for our nation, very few of our citizens engage in the same moral equivalency, racism, historical revisionism, and indifference to terrorism as you. If the reverse held, it would not be a country that any decent person would want to live in.

Sincerely,

Abraham H. Foxman
National Director
Anti-Defamation League

Locker, you obviously have a problem with Israel.

Ah so now I have a problem with Israel because you say so? Interesting. I'll make sure to ignore anything else you post as you are obviously biased beyond all logic or reasonableness. Enjoy your tinfoil hat.

185 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:03:27pm

re: #171 Guanxi88

To invoke an over-used example:

To be neutral during World War II was to support the Axis.

Is that your opinion or just an over-used one?

186 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:03:45pm

re: #177 McSpiff

Id also like to see an explanation of how the Irish state supported the Axis. Preferably backed with sources.

Failure to provide support to halt the advance of a totalitarian combine with the express intent and purpose of subjecting the known world to its yoke is indistinguishable from supporting that totalitarian combine. Every nation not with the Allies was the equivalent, in its way, of another nation with the Axis.

Not to blame the Republic for the actions of the IRA, but there were many instances of known collaboration between the IRA and the abwehr during the War. Irishmen fought bravely for the Allies as part of British formations, of course.

187 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:03:58pm

This is an odd story, and I wonder where Blunt came across it. I found this prior reference on the web.

Golfing with Monkeys

188 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:04:16pm

re: #185 Naso Tang

Is that your opinion or just an over-used one?

Both. A cliche can be true.

189 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:04:34pm

re: #143 Desert Dog

I can respect Bill Moyers for his consistency.


He's consistently douche-y, I'll grant him that.

190 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:05:18pm

re: #42 Enkidu90046

You obviously don't watch South Park.

Somebody say 'South Park'?

[Link: southpark-zone.blogspot.com...]

191 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:07:04pm

re: #184 Locker

Ah so now I have a problem with Israel because you say so? Interesting. I'll make sure to ignore anything else you post as you are obviously biased beyond all logic or reasonableness. Enjoy your tinfoil hat.

Gaze.

192 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:07:04pm
193 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:08:22pm

Auf wiedersehen!

194 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:08:22pm

re: #192 GGMac

k

195 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:08:27pm

/Take cover, incoming/

196 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:10pm

What gives with all the people rushing to flounce or get whacked?

197 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:19pm

re: #193 Charles

How did that happen? Two names for the same person?

198 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:27pm

re: #192 GGMac

OOH!!! I finally got to see a flounce before it was deleted!!!

(And I didn't quote it so my response wouldn't be deleted).

199 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:51pm

re: #196 Guanxi88

What gives with all the people rushing to flounce or get whacked?

They plan these in advance- discuss them at the stalker blog before they even post them here.

200 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:55pm

Please, explain to me how this helped the Axis. I'd love to hear it. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]re: #186 Guanxi88

Failure to provide support to halt the advance of a totalitarian combine with the express intent and purpose of subjecting the known world to its yoke is indistinguishable from supporting that totalitarian combine. Every nation not with the Allies was the equivalent, in its way, of another nation with the Axis.

Not to blame the Republic for the actions of the IRA, but there were many instances of known collaboration between the IRA and the abwehr during the War. Irishmen fought bravely for the Allies as part of British formations, of course.

2nd paragraph, I'd agree completely with. 1st paragraph shows a lack of knowledge of history that is startling. Id suggest reading up on the Irish civil war, and the Winter war. The politics of the 1930s is not so cut and dry for many nations. Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia would be hard pressed to say supporting the Allies lead to freedom and puppy dogs.

201 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:09:59pm

re: #196 Guanxi88

What gives with all the people rushing to flounce or get whacked?

No sure but Charles' delete finger is probably sore.

202 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:10:19pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

They plan these in advance- discuss them at the stalker blog before they even post them here.

I thought it was amybe some new dance-craze or something. Huh! The things people spend their time doing.

203 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:11:21pm

re: #196 Guanxi88

What gives with all the people rushing to flounce or get whacked?

What's happening is that the right wing blogosphere has turned on me like rabid ankle-biting chihuahuas. They're pumping up their readers with hatred against me.

204 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:11:28pm

I went to the website for the Council of Conservative Citizens and ho boy Charles is spot on with the label he gave them.

205 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:12:46pm

re: #204 Mich-again

I went to the website for the Council of Conservative Citizens and ho boy Charles is spot on with the label he gave them.

That's the group Ann Coulter said had "no obvious racism" on their website. Think she was telling the truth?

206 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:13:20pm

re: #205 Charles

That's the group Ann Coulter said had "no obvious racism" on their website. Think she was telling the truth?

Council of Conservative Citizens.

AKA the Country Club Clan.

207 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:13:47pm

re: #202 Guanxi88

I thought it was amybe some new dance-craze or something. Huh! The things people spend their time doing.

It's pathological CDS. They can't just stop posting comments and go about their lives- no. They have to plan a dramatic exit knowing full well it will be deleted. I think some of them think their flounce will be the flounce that makes Charles "snap out of it", but who knows? They need therapy.

208 BignJames  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:14:10pm

re: #203 Charles

Did most of this start w/the whole white supremacy/nazi stuff?

209 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:14:27pm

It isn't like Golf Courses and Country Clubs have ever had a problem with racism.

Oh well ... maybe I will go down to Home Depot and see if I can find a Lawn Jockey for my garden.

/

210 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:14:44pm

re: #203 Charles

Well Charles, Piu nemeche piu honore;

The more enemies you have, the more honor;

You may equally translate that Italian as:

The more honor you have, the more enemies.

Hats off to you.

211 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #200 McSpiff

Please, explain to me how this helped the Axis. I'd love to hear it. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

2nd paragraph, I'd agree completely with. 1st paragraph shows a lack of knowledge of history that is startling. Id suggest reading up on the Irish civil war, and the Winter war. The politics of the 1930s is not so cut and dry for many nations. Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia would be hard pressed to say supporting the Allies lead to freedom and puppy dogs.

I'll just say that I'd not want to be stuck like the Baltic states were - sandwiched between two totalitarian powers. Under the circumstances, they had no good choices.

The Irish people were exhausted from all that came before, and they still had a cloud of suspicion over them, perhaps, for the whackiness of the Germans in WWI and their own ill-advised schemes there. Perhaps another war would be too much for the nation to bear, and I've always had a soft spot for the Irish in general, so I don't hold it against them. From what I've read, the Irish were scrupulous in their neutrality, and they certainly cannot be said to have benefited from it (yes, I'm looking at you, Switzerland!).

212 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:15:08pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

Both. A cliche can be true.

A cliche is only as true as it's meaning to the speaker.

You do realize, don't you, that this "cliche" is also the fundamental of the Palestinian Charter, not to mention many other groups?

213 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:16:31pm

re: #212 Naso Tang

A cliche is only as true as it's meaning to the speaker.

You do realize, don't you, that this "cliche" is also the fundamental of the Palestinian Charter, not to mention many other groups?

yes, it's a fundamental premise of a war-footing. One can't be locked in an existential struggle without first dividing the world into with-us and against-us, and coding all those not with-us as against-us. It's unavoidable.

214 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:17:27pm

re: #205 Charles

That's the group Ann Coulter said had "no obvious racism" on their website. Think she was telling the truth?

If she said that she didn't look very hard or not at all. Its on every page. They do use lots of code though. Like this bit from their Statement of Principles. When you see "European" it really means "white" . Maybe Ann didn't pick up on that.. /

(2) We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people. We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime.
215 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:17:42pm

I think this column fits this thread.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

216 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:18:36pm

re: #171 Guanxi88

It still amazes me that the USA took two years to come around and declare war, and England alone stood against Hitler for all that time.

217 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:18:46pm

re: #214 Mich-again

If she said that she didn't look very hard or not at all.

There's another possibility: she agrees with them and was running interference.

218 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:19:19pm

re: #211 Guanxi88

I may have easily over reacted in my first reply to you. I apologize. I think we generally agree then on the topic, and Im certainly willing to shoot dirty glances at switzerland and spain with you.

220 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:00pm

re: #214 Mich-again

Piss on being part of Europe, the continent of people stupid enough to have two world wars in one century.

221 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:06pm

re: #214 Mich-again

If she's too stupid to pick up on it, why should anyone consider what she has to say?

222 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:24pm

re: #204 Mich-again

I went to the website for the Council of Conservative Citizens and ho boy Charles is spot on with the label he gave them.

(lie mode on) I don't want to poke fun at the CofCC (lie mode off), but look at their statement of principles (actually, don't read it but scroll down to the photograph at the bottom). My question is what foreign object did either of Sam Francis or Sam Dickson insert into Phillip du Toit to produce that expression on his face?

223 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:37pm

re: #203 Charles

I thought perhaps there was some exaggeration re the extent of this until I looked around a little, and you are not kidding.
I've never seen anything like it. It's a little surreal.

224 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:44pm

re: #218 McSpiff

I may have easily over reacted in my first reply to you. I apologize. I think we generally agree then on the topic, and Im certainly willing to shoot dirty glances at switzerland and spain with you.

hey, no need to apologize. It looked like I was fixin' to gore your ox, and you were merely being scrupulous in the defense. No shame in that, no fault in that at all.

(you hot-headed irish) //

225 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:20:56pm

re: #216 Ojoe

It still amazes me that the USA took two years to come around and declare war, and England alone stood against Hitler for all that time.

And we only came around when we did beause of Pearl Harbor.

227 borgcube  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:21:55pm

Either this was planned and calculated with racial overtones or it was completely innocent.

It's hard to reconcile either possibility as the former is simply disgusting beyond belief and the latter is stupid beyond belief.

228 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:22:28pm

re: #216 Ojoe

It still amazes me that the USA took two years to come around and declare war, and England alone stood against Hitler for all that time.

That has always bothered me.

229 JanglerNPL  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:23:05pm

re: #148 MJ

With regards to the first link, here's Moyers:

Some of you were offended by my comment that "god-soaked violence" has become "genetically coded." Those words were obviously not sufficiently precise, I was not talking about a specific people but of the violence in the DNA of the human race, as the Bible itself so strongly attests.

In the context of his original speech (discussing the story of Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism and Islam) it is a pretty strained interpretation to take the "genetically coded" sentence as referring to the entirety of humanity.
However, I find it hard to believe that Moyers thinks Jews (or Arabs) are genetically predisposed to violence. I think it's more of a case of being too in love with one's own turns of phrase.

He shouldn't have cited the Norwegian doctor, certainly.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a subject I know very little about, but I am aware that it arouses great passion on this blog. I plead for your patience with me should I say something incorrect on the subject; any mistakes I make will have been the result of ignorance, not prejudice.

230 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:23:32pm

re: #227 borgcube

Either this was planned and calculated with racial overtones or it was completely innocent.

It's hard to reconcile either possibility as the former is simply disgusting beyond belief and the latter is stupid beyond belief.

I believe it was planned.

231 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:23:50pm

re: #216 Ojoe

It still amazes me that the USA took two years to come around and declare war, and England alone stood against Hitler for all that time.

Hell, what the Japanese were doing in China should have been enough to make the entire civilized world rise up in horror and outrage, never mind the crimes on Europe's own back door.

232 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:00pm

re: #224 Guanxi88

As a new member, replies like this are what really impresses me about LGF. You dont get to have discussions like this on many (any?) websites.

233 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:01pm

I just looked up the story of the monkeys. I found many, many references to the golf course in India - and these references were long before President Obama was president.

Why should we assume that the story was intended to be racist, and not to be a story of having to figure out how to deal with problems and randomness that life (and Washington) delivers? Clearly these earlier examples of the story had nothing to do with race: google it and see for yourself.

234 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:06pm

re: #228 Guanxi88

That has always bothered me.

we had nothing to fight with...maybe part of the reason

235 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:12pm

re: #228 Guanxi88

That has always bothered me.

As a Brit, what would have bothered me would be if the US hadn't come in at all, although I probably wouldn't be alive if that had been the way things turned out.

236 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:31pm

re: #229 JanglerNPL

With regards to the first link, here's Moyers:

In the context of his original speech (discussing the story of Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism and Islam) it is a pretty strained interpretation to take the "genetically coded" sentence as referring to the entirety of humanity.
However, I find it hard to believe that Moyers thinks Jews (or Arabs) are genetically predisposed to violence. I think it's more of a case of being too in love with one's own turns of phrase.

He shouldn't have cited the Norwegian doctor, certainly.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a subject I know very little about, but I am aware that it arouses great passion on this blog. I plead for your patience with me should I say something incorrect on the subject; any mistakes I make will have been the result of ignorance, not prejudice.

Thank-you for reading the post.

237 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:24:58pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

yes, it's a fundamental premise of a war-footing. One can't be locked in an existential struggle without first dividing the world into with-us and against-us, and coding all those not with-us as against-us. It's unavoidable.

It is not unavoidable to those who live in the world of realpolitik, and who recognize that all things are not always what they may, to some, appear to be.

238 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:25:00pm

re: #217 Charles

Oh she was definitely running interference. Its obvious from wading through that fever swamp of a website what their one and only goal is. The really sick part is how they drape themselves in their Religion to cloak the racism.

239 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:25:29pm

re: #234 albusteve

we had nothing to fight with...maybe part of the reason

True, but prudence should have had us arming ourselves to the teeth, if only to keep the war out.

240 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #238 Mich-again

Oh she was definitely running interference. Its obvious from wading through that fever swamp of a website what their one and only goal is. The really sick part is how they drape themselves in their Religion to cloak the racism.

The Council of Conservative Citizens is very connected with the Family Research Council.

241 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:27:38pm

re: #216 Ojoe

It still amazes me that the USA took two years to come around and declare war, and England alone stood against Hitler for all that time.

It took a while to come to an existential conclusion, and of course a little help from the nips (I'm not sure; in this context, is that racist? I never had sensitivity training/)

242 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:28:06pm

re: #237 Naso Tang

It is not unavoidable to those who live in the world of realpolitik, and who recognize that all things are not always what they may, to some, appear to be.

Well, Realpolitik is another matter altogether, and meta-politics and theories of relations between states and peoples are of course very different than the views of the participants. While it is perhaps possible to understand the motives and forces at work better (or differently) than do those actually involved in it, to examine their stated reasons is useful, and even necessary.

In some respects, I'm sorta kinda a Schmittian when it comes to the state. Odd, I know, but he was on to something. The Enemy is the sole reason for the existence of the State as an actor beyond its borders.

243 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:28:07pm

re: #239 Guanxi88

True, but prudence should have had us arming ourselves to the teeth, if only to keep the war out.

politics are not often prudent...Lend/Lease was a great idea and it set the ball rolling...there was tremendous anti war sentiment too..the Japanese solved that problem for FDR

244 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:28:20pm

It was the racist on the grassy knoll.

245 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:28:58pm

re: #240 Charles

Methinks they have hijacked the term 'conservative'. I would think a true conservative would actively seek to eliminate this kind of crap with a sense of utmost urgency.

246 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:17pm

re: #243 albusteve

politics are not often prudent...Lend/Lease was a great idea and it set the ball rolling...there was tremendous anti war sentiment too..the Japanese solved that problem for FDR

Which has lead to many conspiracy theories about pearl harbour. Proving that trufers have always, and will always exist.

247 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #233 Peg K

The problem is that fair or not, anytime you equate or use a story that contains references to monkeys when the subject is African American, there is a tinge ... a taint, whether intentional or not. It has not been all that long since African Americans were considered subhuman by some in America, which is why it is a sensitive topic. As awful as I thought it was to call Bush ' Chimp', it would have been much, much more offensive had he been black. That's just fact, and people need to absorb and remember it.

248 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:45pm

re: #230 Charles

I believe it was planned.

This is 2009.
Any professional politician understands the multiple meanings when using the word "monkey."

249 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:49pm

More "code" in the CoCC's Statement of Principles.

We support the investigation of lobbying groups that represent the interests of foreign states or foreign powers and the enactment of legislation that will outlaw lobbying Congress or the executive branch on behalf of foreign states.

Gee I wonder who Sam Francis was talking about there?

250 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:50pm

re: #246 McSpiff

Which has lead to many conspiracy theories about pearl harbour. Proving that trufers have always, and will always exist.

Wilson was really British, you know?

251 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:58pm

One of the stalkers is planning a flounce, with an attack on LGF lizard 'Bloodnok'.

89. HadEnough on 19 September, 2009 at 5:48 am

You know, at first I thought bloodnok was ok… but I noticed a pattern that leaned pretty heavily left. I am getting more and more ideas about how I will sign off. I think it will be a very worthy, last post.

252 borgcube  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:30:12pm

re: #230 Charles

Maybe it's both at the same time? Does someone really think they can say something like this without people connecting the dots, right or wrong?

Somebody in this thread mentioned that he has used this story before. I think it would be interesting to see some details there.

I'm not ready to call him a racist, but he's a maroon of the first degree. That much is not even debatable.

253 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:30:43pm

re: #242 Guanxi88

Well, Realpolitik is another matter altogether, and meta-politics and theories of relations between states and peoples are of course very different than the views of the participants. While it is perhaps possible to understand the motives and forces at work better (or differently) than do those actually involved in it, to examine their stated reasons is useful, and even necessary.

In some respects, I'm sorta kinda a Schmittian when it comes to the state. Odd, I know, but he was on to something. The Enemy is the sole reason for the existence of the State as an actor beyond its borders.

Finally; qualifying the cliche.

Now, to define "Enemy"...(in this cliche, that is) ;=>

254 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:15pm

The mega Irony in those wishing for a more European America to preserve European values -

America had no problem attracting European immigrants when Europe was organized as a birth-right society with no economic or social mobility. It was a continent that manufactured industrial poverty. American shores offered opportunity that didn't and couldn't exist under European Values.

The progress in America forced changes in Europe culminating in an EU that was designed to compete with the US, complete with rules and incentives that encourage social and economic mobility. Result? Europe doesn't export people here much anymore. Instead, people from other parts of the world that have yet to adopt rules allowing for economic and social mobility (like just about all of Latin America) are coming here.

So Europe was saved by America. And it was destroyed by America. And neither Europe or America will be going back in time.

255 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:21pm

re: #251 Charles

Do you know his/her LGF nic?

256 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:26pm

re: #251 Charles

My Dad has an expression that fits there... ' nip it in the bud'.

257 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:27pm

re: #233 Peg K

Context is everything. An anecdote like this may be completely innocent in one context and anything but in another.

258 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:54pm

re: #245 Taqyia2Me

Thanks for what you did earlier up thread.

259 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:31:55pm

re: #251 Charles

One of the stalkers is planning a flounce, with an attack on LGF lizard 'Bloodnok'.

What I want to know is what do I need to DO to get all this kind of attention?

260 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:32:30pm

re: #204 Mich-again

Yep, it's transparently obvious even on their public website and, especially, in their statement of principles:

We believe the United States is a European country and that Americans are part of the European people. We believe that the United States derives from and is an integral part of European civilization and the European people and that the American people and government should remain European in their composition and character. We therefore oppose the massive immigration of non-European and non-Western peoples into the United States that threatens to transform our nation into a non-European majority in our lifetime. We believe that illegal immigration must be stopped, if necessary by military force and placing troops on our national borders; that illegal aliens must be returned to their own countries; and that legal immigration must be severely restricted or halted through appropriate changes in our laws and policies. We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called “affirmative action” and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races.

I just don't see much wiggle room in that. As an ironic example of blatant ignorance, these people apparently don't know that Latin America is at least as "European" and western in cultural character as the United States. To further belabor the obvious, this is not even about culture though, it is about skin color.

261 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:33:07pm

re: #253 Naso Tang

Finally; qualifying the cliche.

Now, to define "Enemy"...(in this cliche, that is) ;=>

Yes, and each polity defines it differently. In broad terms, the Enemy is the Other, or, more specifically, any Other with whom differences are so great as to be likely to occasion hostilities and combat. In the Israeli/Palestinian thing, I think we have definite Enemy identification on both sides. Now, for a third party to make an identification of the parties, it need only look to see which of the two is most Other, and choose accordingly.

262 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:33:50pm

re: #254 karmic_inquisitor

Well- in europe now they created a new class for their old birth-right society. They've opened the doors for immigrants of their own, and we see how well that's working out for them.

263 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:34:11pm

re: #245 Taqyia2Me

Methinks they have hijacked the term 'conservative'.

Here is the first entry in their Statement of Principles..

(1) We believe the United States is a Christian country. We believe that the United States of America is a Christian country, that its people are a Christian people, and that its government and public leaders at all levels must reflect Christian beliefs and values.

So they want to overthrow the system of Government that Thomas Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers drew up 200+ years ago and make the USA a theocracy. That is not "Conservative" by any means. They are fanatics, not conservatives.

264 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:34:22pm

You know, with a slight, and very temporary change to the style sheet charles could set up a very amusing "I am spartacus!" moment...

265 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:35:07pm

re: #244 jorline

You can stop trying to be coy...if you're insinuating that we're being conspiracy theorists talking about what Blunt said and the connections he and/or his hosts have with the more unsavory elements, then you're just burying your head in the sand.

If I'm wrong about your comment, I'll admit it...am I?

266 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:36:16pm

My only point is that if someone has a history of racist behavior and "jokes" - that is one thing. I wouldn't assume from a story that has been told many times in a variety of venues that someone is racist from, once again, telling that story.

It seems that if we must tred on tip toes to make certain nothing we say isn't 100% PC - that is putting race somewhere that it ought not to be.

Obama deserves a certain respect because he is our president. On the other hand, we, the people, should have the ability to criticize whoever is president without automatically being tarred as racists for doing so.

267 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:36:35pm

I just check out this CoCC's website and found this:

Membership is only $25 a year. All new members will receive:

1.Membership Card
2.Booklet on the MLK Holiday by Dr. Sam Francis & Sen. Jesse Helms

I am almost tempted to join just to see the MLK Holiday Booklet.

268 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:38:11pm

re: #266 Peg K

On the other hand, we, the people, should have the ability to criticize whoever is president without automatically being tarred as racists for doing so.

If you don't want to be accused of racism, the solution is simple: don't use racist code words.

269 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:38:23pm

re: #263 Mich-again

They want a theocracy. Pure and simple. They constantly talk about how "separation of church and state" is a myth.

270 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:39:02pm

re: #258 MJ

Do you mean zeroing out that -1 someone had given you? That was a remarkably well-sourced post, imho.

271 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:39:09pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

Well- in europe now they created a new class for their old birth-right society. They've opened the doors for immigrants of their own, and we see how well that's working out for them.

And you can see who our white supremacists like to align with ... VB, BNP ...

One other domestic smear that SoCons like to use against RINOs - that fiscal conservatives want immigration reform because they value money over cultural preservation.

272 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:40:08pm

re: #266 Peg K

It seems that if we must tred on tip toes to make certain nothing we say isn't 100% PC - that is putting race somewhere that it ought not to be.

I do not find it difficult to avoid saying things that are racist. I do not understand why people refer to that as "tip toeing" and "walking on eggshells." How hard is it? Unless of course, your world view is racist, and it just slips out. I don't know what that is like.

273 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:40:29pm

The SPLC's entry on Sam Francis:

An intellectual and key white nationalist thinker, Sam Francis has been referred to by analyst Leonard Zeskind as the "philosopher king" of the radical right — a title that seems well justified by the ubiquitous presence of his columns in racist forums and his influence over the general direction of right-wing extremism.

A prize-winning writer, Francis served in the late 1980s and early 1990s as an editor and columnist at the right-wing Washington Times, where he was well known as a leading paleoconservative (the term refers to an anti-federal, isolationist sector of the American right that typically opposes non-white immigration vigorously)

The 1990s saw Francis radicalized to the point where he is today the chief editor for a leading white supremacist hate group, the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC). That tie was initiated in 1993, when Francis published his first column in the CCC's tabloid, Citizens Informer, complaining that the media ignored whites murdered by blacks while police brutality victim Rodney King, characterized as a black criminal, was celebrated.

The next year, Francis made his first appearance at a conference of American Renaissance, a magazine devoted to eugenics (the "science" of breeding better human beings) and allegedly race-based characteristics (such as IQ levels, sexual aggressiveness and propensity to criminality). In June 1994, Francis praised the CCC in a Times column for "planting seeds that may eventually bear greater fruit" than the Republican Party (the "Stupid Party," in Francis' phrase).

Ultimately, Francis was fired from the Times in 1995 after conservative author Dinesh D'Souza quoted Francis' 1994 speech at the American Renaissance conference and described him as embodying the "new spirit of white bigotry." Since then, Francis has appeared at every biannual American Renaissance conference and written for the magazine.

In 1999, Francis joined the CCC's Citizens Informer as co-editor with Chris Temple, an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology who has since left the job. In that post, he has stacked the publication with immigrant-bashers and refocused the increasingly strident CCC on opposition to non-white immigration.

In 2000, Francis helped his good friend Patrick Buchanan, the nation's best-known paleoconservative and white nationalist, run for president on the Reform Party ticket and also helped to edit his recent book, Death of the West.

Today, Francis, who markets his columns through the Creators Syndicate, also helps edit The Occidental Quarterly, a journal similar to American Renaissance that is bankrolled by William H. Regnery II, the reclusive far-right Chicago millionaire who is an heir to a publishing fortune.

274 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:41:20pm

re: #261 Guanxi88

Yes, and each polity defines it differently. In broad terms, the Enemy is the Other, or, more specifically, any Other with whom differences are so great as to be likely to occasion hostilities and combat. In the Israeli/Palestinian thing, I think we have definite Enemy identification on both sides. Now, for a third party to make an identification of the parties, it need only look to see which of the two is most Other, and choose accordingly.

I think that, based on much of the rest of discussions in this thread, the Enemy is much more likely to be those who are culturally/religiously/racially different, as opposed to likely to occasion combat.

275 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:42:01pm

Hey Thomas Jefferson, what do you think about the claim the USA is a Christian nation?

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78
276 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:42:03pm

re: #109 Salamantis

Pepper Rules; PiBB Drools!

I opened a Pepper just before getting here. My other soda is Squirt (or really any grapefruit soda).

277 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:42:32pm

re: #271 karmic_inquisitor

And you can see who our white supremacists like to align with ... VB, BNP ...

One other domestic smear that SoCons like to use against RINOs - that fiscal conservatives want immigration reform because they value money over cultural preservation.

What I find ironic about their position on immigration is the latinos are more closely matched to their values than any other immigrant group. They're predominately Christians, hard working, and family orientated, so... what's the problem? They fit right into our culture! For me, it leaves only one reason why they'd be opposed to latino immigration- they're racists.

278 JEA62  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:42:49pm

This is the extreme right - they know they can't come out and proclaim their racist views openly because they know that would be unacceptable, so they use code words, right on the verge, code words that THEY know are racist, but still give them just enough wiggle room to deny it (I believe ol' tricky Dick called that 'plausible deniability'). Then say they are being accused of something they didn't say or mean, because it's actually the LEFT who is racist. Which is utter BS to anyone with a brain.

Intersting that I continue to see only white people at these rightie events.

279 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:42:55pm

re: #266 Peg K


Obama deserves a certain respect because he is our president. On the other hand, we, the people, should have the ability to criticize whoever is president without automatically being tarred as racists for doing so.

That is a strawman argument. No one is claiming that criticism of Obama is racist. If that is the case, I guess I am a racist. But an anecdote like that, being told by whom it was, to the audience it was, with a black President from the other party in office... I think it is fair to question whether that anecdote had a racist undertone to it.

280 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:43:01pm

First - I didn't see or hear anything where Blount referred to black people as monkeys. Did I miss it?

Second - I seem to recall scores of references to GWB as a monkey; specific references. Were they racist?

If it is not racist to call one president a monkey - then why should it automatically be racist to call another president a monkey? Why can't those calling any politician a monkey be intimating that they think that person is an idiot?

Yes, I am well aware of historical references to black people and apes. Ugly and awful. I am only saying that I think many people are getting carried away with politically correct language - and again, it is giving too much power to race. Base judgments of racism on a bigger picture; not on a few words without a history to back it up.

281 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:43:30pm

re: #274 Naso Tang

I think that, based on much of the rest of discussions in this thread, the Enemy is much more likely to be those who are culturally/religiously/racially different, as opposed to likely to occasion combat.

The source or origins of the Otherness are largely irrelevant to schmittian analysis. Al l that is necessary is that the difference should be sufficient as to antagonize one party to violence, at which point the struggle immediately loses all purely cultural, religious, or racial significance, and becomes political in the schmittian sense. This is not to deny these elements, but the addition of violence immediately changes their character.

282 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:44:07pm

re: #267 Chekote

I just check out this CoCC's website and found this:


I am almost tempted to join just to see the MLK Holiday Booklet.

It must have been written a few years ago, as both Francis and Helms are dead.

283 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:44:10pm

re: #280 Peg K

Why is ot okay to call a president a monkey period? If it was wrong with Bush, it's wrong now, so spare me the "the left!" excuse.

284 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:45:04pm

re: #280 Peg K

Base judgments of racism on a bigger picture; not on a few words without a history to back it up.

There's a ton of history on this thread. You choose to ignore it.

285 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:46:13pm

re: #267 Chekote

I just check out this CoCC's website...

I was surprised by the lack of overt creationism/ID, although I think it was implied in their section on education.

286 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:46:16pm

RE: #283 Sharmuta - personally, I wish that no one would refer to presidents OR people serving in Washington as monkeys. I like to raise our discourse. Doesn't matter what race they are or whether they are Democrats or Republicans. Ditto for "Nazis" "Hitler" and the rest of the overberries on ridiculous insults.

My opinion.

287 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:46:49pm

re: #163 Locker

Someone criticizing this or that Israeli military policy doesn't make them an anti-semite and to claim so is dishonest. I reject similar arguments that protesting war makes someone un-American.

Here's what George Orwell had to say during WW II:

Pacifism. Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with. In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.

I am not interested in pacifism as a ‘moral phenomenon’. If Mr Savage and others imagine that one can somehow ‘overcome’ the German army by lying on one’s back, let them go on imagining it, but let them also wonder occasionally whether this is not an illusion due to security, too much money and a simple ignorance of the way in which things actually happen. As an ex-Indian civil servant, it always makes me shout with laughter to hear, for instance, Gandhi named as an example of the success of non-violence. As long as twenty years ago it was cynically admitted in Anglo-Indian circles that Gandhi was very useful to the British government. So he will be to the Japanese if they get there. Despotic governments can stand ‘moral force’ till the cows come home; what they fear is physical force. But though not much interested in the ‘theory’ of pacifism, I am interested in the psychological processes by which pacifists who have started out with an alleged horror of violence end up with a marked tendency to be fascinated by the success and power of Nazism. Even pacifists who wouldn’t own to any such fascination are beginning to claim that a Nazi victory is desirable in itself.

288 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:47:20pm

HOLY SHIT... I have to go off topic here...

MY WASHINGTON HUSKIES ARE 7 SECONDS AWAY FROM A HUGE UPSET OVER THE #3 RANKED USC TROJANS!!!

289 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:47:24pm

Sorry - I didn't read the entire thread. Just got back from 8 hours at the airport. I wasn't aware that I had to read all of the thread before commenting.

290 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:47:30pm

re: #140 vxbush

Finding evidence of what position FRC supports should be much easier than finding proof of God. They have a whole web site.

I have no doubts that people disagree with FRC's position. And there are numerous hypocrites to all causes. But you presented a position about what FRC believes. If that is indeed their position, you should be able to provide documentation of the same. Otherwise, your comment is simply your opinion of what FRC believes.

You remind me *exactly* of a DJ friend of mine in the goth scene who is a total a-hole in online political discussions. He reads things out of context and demands proof of everything. Reread what I said -- the FRC is cover for jerks to engage in the same kind of behavior they wish to prevent others from engaging in, while rendering women subservient. You know what? It's called my opinion. You want proof of my opinion? I just stated it. Get a clue.

291 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:47:38pm

re: #184 Locker

Ah so now I have a problem with Israel because you say so? Interesting. I'll make sure to ignore anything else you post as you are obviously biased beyond all logic or reasonableness. Enjoy your tinfoil hat.

Locker - it looked to me like MJ gave you a list of reasons why he thinks you have a problem with Israel.

292 Keyser Soze abupango  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:48:10pm

remember, dissent is no longer the highest form of patriotism, it is now racist and offenders will be persecuted

293 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:48:13pm

re: #286 Peg K

Great- them don't trot out tired excuses. If you had read the thread- you'd have seen I already mentioned President Bush.

294 SFGoth  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:48:32pm

re: #159 talon_262

Charles must be slipping the hamsters some 'roids here lately... ;-P

That has a whole different connotation in my neck of the woods.

295 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:48:33pm

re: #288 Enkidu90046

HOLY SHIT... I have to go off topic here...

MY WASHINGTON HUSKIES ARE 7 SECONDS AWAY FROM A HUGE UPSET OVER THE #3 RANKED USC TROJANS!!!

HUSKIES TAKE A 16-13 LEAD WITH 3 SECONDS TO GO IN THE GAME!!!

GO DAWGS!!!

296 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:48:59pm

I see the Gadsden Flag is displayed prominently in a racist diatribe at the CoCC's website titled "Our Winter of Discontent and the Season of White Guilt" The same flag so many of the Tea Partiers were waving around on 9/12.

297 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:49:02pm

re: #290 SFGoth

You remind me *exactly* of a DJ friend of mine in the goth scene who is a total a-hole in online political discussions. He reads things out of context and demands proof of everything. Reread what I said -- the FRC is cover for jerks to engage in the same kind of behavior they wish to prevent others from engaging in, while rendering women subservient. You know what? It's called my opinion. You want proof of my opinion? I just stated it. Get a clue.

I can say with much certainty that VXbush is NOT "exactly" like your a-hole friend.

298 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:49:04pm

re: #289 Peg K

Sorry - I didn't read the entire thread. Just got back from 8 hours at the airport. I wasn't aware that I had to read all of the thread before commenting.

You don't have to read the thread before commenting, but it usually helps.

299 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:50:07pm

re: #295 Enkidu90046

HUSKIES TAKE A 16-13 LEAD WITH 3 SECONDS TO GO IN THE GAME!!!

GO DAWGS!!!

HUSKIES WIN!!! HUSKIES WIN!!! OH MY GOD, THE HUSKIES WIN!!!

300 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:50:49pm

re: #299 Enkidu90046

HUSKIES WIN!!! HUSKIES WIN!!! OH MY GOD, THE HUSKIES WIN!!!

- Quote from the new guy at the Iditerod finish line.

301 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:50:58pm

re: #273 Charles

Update: Samuel Francis died in 2005

Incidentally, Francis and the CCC opposed the Iraq War, and are significantly isolationist:

(CCC Statement of Principles) America First Foreign Policy. We believe that in the aftermath of the U.S. victory over Soviet Communism, the United States has little need to retain the political and military commitments to allies made during the Cold War. While we wish these allies well, we believe we cannot continue to support their defense budgets, guarantee their security, fight their wars, or finance their governments and economies through foreign aid. We therefore call for a comprehensive review of all U.S. diplomatic commitments and U.S. withdrawal from those alliances and commitments that no longer serve our national interests or that threaten to entangle us in unnecessary foreign wars, conflicts, and quarrels. We therefore oppose continued membership in NATO and similar outdated Cold War alliances; we oppose sending American troops on U.N. peace-keeping missions or into similar unconstitutionally undeclared wars under the names of “police actions.” (emphasis added)

302 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:51:02pm

re: #287 Salamantis

It's almost like... World War II and Iraq were different wars? Let's be honest. Iraq wasn't going to be taking over the world, or invading poland,etc. Many people somehow knew there was no WMD. That war was a choice we made. We can have a discussion on how valid that choice was, but don't compare that war to WWII.

303 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:53:23pm

re: #270 Taqyia2Me

Do you mean zeroing out that -1 someone had given you? That was a remarkably well-sourced post, imho.

Yes. And thank-you for noticing!

304 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:53:51pm

re: #302 McSpiff

It's almost like... World War II and Iraq were different wars? Let's be honest. Iraq wasn't going to be taking over the world, or invading poland,etc. Many people somehow knew there was no WMD. That war was a choice we made. We can have a discussion on how valid that choice was, but don't compare that war to WWII.

I supported the war in Iraq; they were a regional threat in a very sensitive region, with the potential to cause trouble outside their neighborhood, but never did I fear their iron hand falling upon any shoulders not in the Arab world.

305 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:54:00pm

re: #300 Guanxi88

- Quote from the new guy at the Iditerod finish line.

SILENCE YOU!!!

BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON!!!

306 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:55:09pm

I just don't see is Sharm. I watched the video twice and thought the monkey story stupid, and he compared it to Washington (cliche), but I didn't get the coded racist language. Not on this one.

307 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:55:57pm

re: #306 BigPapa

Is there a reason you're addressing this to me?

308 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:56:28pm

re: #305 Enkidu90046

SILENCE YOU!!!

BOW DOWN TO WASHINGTON!!!

See? See? Beck was right! We have a dictator in the White House!

//

309 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:56:39pm

re: #304 Guanxi88

I supported the war in Iraq; they were a regional threat in a very sensitive region, with the potential to cause trouble outside their neighborhood, but never did I fear their iron hand falling upon any shoulders not in the Arab world.

Actually he was Scudding Israell just like Hitler did to London.

310 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:57:44pm

re: #304 Guanxi88

I supported the war in Iraq; they were a regional threat in a very sensitive region, with the potential to cause trouble outside their neighborhood, but never did I fear their iron hand falling upon any shoulders not in the Arab world.

I totally respect that opinion.

311 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:57:44pm

re: #302 McSpiff

It's almost like... World War II and Iraq were different wars? Let's be honest. Iraq wasn't going to be taking over the world, or invading poland,etc. Many people somehow knew there was no WMD. That war was a choice we made. We can have a discussion on how valid that choice was, but don't compare that war to WWII.

why not?...Sal can make any comparison he wants...is there a penalty if he does?

312 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:57:49pm

There is a link in the spin-offs to a Bill Moyers piece, (yes, I know many people don't like Moyers,) which has a video which is worth watching.

In the video Sam Tanenhaus explains what he means by the "death of conservatism"..

[whoops... we just had an earthquake! First wave separated by the second by about a second... will have to investigate]

Sam touches on the split in conservatism and describes, accurately IMO, the current Beckians as "revanchism".

313 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:57:52pm

re: #309 BigPapa

Actually he was Scudding Israell just like Hitler did to London.

In fairness, he hadn't done it some years, having gotten whacked pretty damned hard the last time he did. Still, a regional threat; SCUD shots to try to make him a hero to the Arab world he sought to enslave.

314 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:58:00pm

re: #307 Sharmuta

Is there a reason you're addressing this to me?

Cuz you're here. And so am I. I didn't read the whole thread (the first 40 or so a few hours ago before I tore away). Just got back.

If I'm making some kind of assumption sorry.

315 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:59:01pm

re: #311 albusteve

why not?...Sal can make any comparison he wants...is there a penalty if he does?

Yes. The penalty being: I'll continue to say he's making an invalid comparison. Consider it the equivalent of the strongly worded UN letter.

316 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:59:13pm

re: #312 freetoken


[whoops... we just had an earthquake! First wave separated by the second by about a second... will have to investigate]

Everything ok? Where are you?

317 JEA62  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:59:45pm

re: #280 Peg K

Thanks for making my argument, Peg.

318 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:00:03pm

re: #314 BigPapa

I think it's insulting to monkeys to be compared to politicians.

319 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:00:55pm

re: #318 Sharmuta

I think it's insulting to monkeys to be compared to politicians.

ha!...HA!...true words

320 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:01:01pm

Yes, 4.8 just south of the border in the Colorado river valley:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

Not a big one and I'm quite a ways from it... surprised I felt it.

321 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:02:59pm

re: #313 Guanxi88

In fairness, he hadn't done it some years, having gotten whacked pretty damned hard the last time he did. Still, a regional threat; SCUD shots to try to make him a hero to the Arab world he sought to enslave.

Still, he had it coming, no getting around it. ("We all got it coming, kid")

322 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:03:15pm

re: #190 ryannon

Somebody say 'South Park'?

[Link: southpark-zone.blogspot.com...]

Hey - they're finally letting us in the UK watch these online for free - great stuff!

323 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:04:23pm

re: #265 talon_262

You can stop trying to be coy...if you're insinuating that we're being conspiracy theorists talking about what Blunt said and the connections he and/or his hosts have with the more unsavory elements, then you're just burying your head in the sand.

If I'm wrong about your comment, I'll admit it...am I?

Hey talon.

Trust me, my heads not in the sand. I'm not insinuating conspiracy theories, but I am tired of the nitpicking with everything on the right. Right now we have become our own worst enemy with all of the infighting. If you think our real enemies have have lost focus on their overall objective then your head is buried in the sand.
We won't have to wait for the next 9/11, we'll just implode and all Al Qaeda has to do is wait for the dust to settle.

324 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:04:44pm

Just saw this on Bloomberg.

Obama Will Hold Meeting with Netanyahu, Abbas, White House Says

I can't get excited about it.

325 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:05:41pm

The only thing about using the SPLC as a source is that they themselves have a decidedly left wing agenda which is sometimes less than honest... while they have done some good work, they literally see hate and racism around every single corner, and often where it does not exist. They launched a vicious campaign against Lou Dobbs, calling him a racist and xenophobe for his views on illegal immigration, and whether or not you like Dobbs, you should see the example of how the SPLC often operates...

Youtube Video
326 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:05:55pm

re: #318 Sharmuta

I think it's insulting to monkeys to be compared to politicians.

LOL. Monkeyist! His whole story was stupid and not very effective.

They do seem to desparage Washington as if they aren't part of it, when they are Washington.

I harken back to the CT-Monkey-Obama kerfuffle, thought it was a tempest in a teaspoon at the time. In a vacuum, maybe it is. But it seems Teh Cwazy has amped up a lot.

Instead of marches and signs and stronger rhetoric ( which validates Teh Cwazy) maybe we need better rhetoric. And maybe a hyper sensitive reaction to stupid and insulting comments, even if it's just politicians and monkeys.

327 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:06:16pm

FRC are whacko theocrats promoting a so-con agenda.
They oppose abortion, birth control, they're AGW deniers, they believe people who rent a dirty movie in a hotel room should be prosecuted, and they believe there is a homosexual agenda-- that gay people are paedophiles out to take your children.

Here's their profile over at rightwingwatch, with links to FRC's own publications:

"...one of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the 'prophets' of a new sexual order." —"Homosexual Behavior & Pedophilia," a FRC publication, July 1999, [Link: www.frc.org...]

"Gaining access to children has been a long-term goal of the homosexual movement." —"Homosexual Behavior and Pedophilia," FRC publication, July 1999, [Link: www.frc.org...]

328 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:06:33pm

re: #324 John Neverbend

Me neither. It a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.

329 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:06:40pm

re: #324 John Neverbend

Just tell me it's not going to be held at Camp David.

330 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:06:44pm

I think most of us here at LGF are decent people, so we might not necessarily see the problem with this golf story. But I bet the paleo-cons got it. I think it's stupid to use a story about monkeys to describe Washington at this time because we are clearly seeing a rise in racist rhetoric. To deny this rhetoric is on the uptick is to deny reality. It's politically tone deaf to carry on with such analogies, and worse- it's feeding the lowest segments of the base, who most certainly are applying the monkey story to the President.

331 Bloodnok  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:06:57pm

BBL

332 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:07:09pm

re: #323 jorline

Hey talon.

Trust me, my heads not in the sand. I'm not insinuating conspiracy theories, but I am tired of the nitpicking with everything on the right. Right now we have become our own worst enemy with all of the infighting. If you think our real enemies have have lost focus on their overall objective then your head is buried in the sand.
We won't have to wait for the next 9/11, we'll just implode and all Al Qaeda has to do is wait for the dust to settle.

Same tired old garbage we've been hearing from right wing extremists since Spncer was called out for his associations with fascist freaks. Give it a rest.

333 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:07:20pm

re: #320 freetoken

Yes, 4.8 just south of the border in the Colorado river valley:

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

Not a big one and I'm quite a ways from it... surprised I felt it.

Earthquake rookie. Grew up in Cali and live in HI now. I looove earthquakes!!! (Unless they break my good wine bottles)

334 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:08:20pm

re: #331 Bloodnok

Lace 'em up tight, Bloodnok, we hear the stalkers have plans.
//

335 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:08:46pm

re: #325 tradewind

The only thing about using the SPLC as a source is that they themselves have a decidedly left wing agenda which is sometimes less than honest...

No, they don't. They have a civil rights/civil liberties agenda. And Lou Dobbs is not someone whose track record on either of those issues is one I would trust.

336 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:09:02pm

re: #329 tradewind

Just tell me it's not going to be held at Camp David.

Actually, I should have added that it's off-topic. I wonder if it will take place in New York, as we're girding ourselves for UN-week.

337 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:09:07pm

re: #330 Sharmuta

Well said.

338 The Shadow Do  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:09:09pm

Linda Chavez was villified by the Right during the whole comprehensive immigration reform mess, suggesting that there was a racist taint around the Conservative shout down.

Know, what? She was right. And the Republican Party remains a trainwreck. Only True Conservatives may apply. GWB knew what could have been accomplished with such a bill. But it just wasn't pure enough I guess.

339 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:11:20pm

re: #330 Sharmuta

I think most of us here at LGF are decent people, so we might not necessarily see the problem with this golf story. But I bet the paleo-cons got it. I think it's stupid to use a story about monkeys to describe Washington at this time because we are clearly seeing a rise in racist rhetoric. To deny this rhetoric is on the uptick is to deny reality. It's politically tone deaf to carry on with such analogies, and worse- it's feeding the lowest segments of the base, who most certainly are applying the monkey story to the President.

Yeah, I've watched the thing in full. Reminds me of the time I was travelling out to Nevada and stopped at a motel for the evening. Guy at the counter quotes the rate for a crappy room. I look at his hand, see the Mason's square, and he and I have a weird little conversation.

"Wow," I say "that's quite a lot for a traveling man like me. Is that price on the level?"

Guy blinks at me.

"Oh, are you one of Mr. Boaz's friends?"

"Sure am, sir, I sure am. A poor widow's son like me can't have too many friends."

And then he runs the card for half the quoted price.

The folk sitting there in the lobby though the whole thing must have thought it was a weird conversation, but we both knew what we meant.

340 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:11:53pm

re: #335 iceweasel

Yes, they do. We'll just have to disagree.
You may want to go over the CV's of some of their board members. Or not.

341 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:12:05pm

re: #333 BigPapa

Earthquake rookie.

Rookie? Ha! I've spent nearly my entire adult life in earthquake prone areas (California, Japan)...

342 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:12:20pm

re: #308 Guanxi88

See? See? Beck was right! We have a dictator in the White House!

//

LOL... upding!

343 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:12:45pm

re: #338 The Shadow Do

Linda Chavez was villified by the Right during the whole comprehensive immigration reform mess, suggesting that there was a racist taint around the Conservative shout down.

Know, what? She was right. And the Republican Party remains a trainwreck. Only True Conservatives may apply. GWB knew what could have been accomplished with such a bill. But it just wasn't pure enough I guess.

Indeed. I think our point here is not that nutball organizations like FRC and the CCC exist; that is their Constitutional right; but that they have embedded themselves solidly into the mainstream of the Republican Party. This is a disaster, no two ways about it.

Some have suggested that this is only because a racist-kook dominated GOP would face a monumental defeat in 2012. There is a worse possibility though: They might win.

344 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:13:00pm

re: #339 Guanxi88

I look at his hand, see the Mason's square, and he and I have a weird little conversation.

I nearly got in at Hendon.

345 Joshua Cohen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:13:41pm

re: #220 Ojoe

Piss on being part of Europe, the continent of people stupid enough to have two world wars in one century.


A full century isn't over since...so they can still go for a hat trick...

346 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:13:52pm

I personally do not see so much more "racist comments" as I see people claiming racism here, there, everywhere.

Not denying that the racists are out there. I'm only saying that an awful lot of people voted for President Obama - and even of those who did not, some (like myself) were glad to see this milestone achieved.

Many are simply being critical of this administration and Congress. They're not racists; they're Americans expressing their views about policies and direction.

347 JEA62  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:14:09pm

re: #333 BigPapa

I live on the east coast - I would freak out if there was so much as an earthQUIVER...

Hope everything's ok out there

348 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:14:20pm

re: #344 John Neverbend

I nearly got in at Hendon.

Was raised up in my grandfather's lodge, had fellowship at the Harvard lodge, and hate that I fell out of it. Need to get in with my brothers here.

349 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:14:41pm

re: #340 tradewind

Yes, they do. We'll just have to disagree.
You may want to go over the CV's of some of their board members. Or not.

You might want to check Lou Dobbs' record.

I'm pretty bored with the kneejerk claim on the right that any organisation that tends to criticise some of their heroes is 'leftist' and 'has an agenda'.

The SPLC is perfectly legit, and even if you don't agree with them on Dobbs, that doesn't nullify all the other excellent work they do.

Too many people have internalised Reagan's 11th Commandment, and now use it as a reason to dismiss anyone who criticises anyone on the right, ever.

350 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:15:17pm

re: #330 Sharmuta

In a mild vacuum there isn't much to this story. After the last couple of months I think that the GOP and any discussion of monkeys is hot stuff. That's just the way it is.

I suppose that the GOP could lament about the double standard but they should probably choose other battles that don't need monkey rhetoric to champion. To keep up the monkey talk is about as productive as taking your AR-15 to a Presidential speech, legally, just because you can.

351 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:15:27pm

re: #346 Peg K

Many are simply being critical of this administration and Congress. They're not racists; they're Americans expressing their views about policies and direction.

Signs telling the President to "go back to Africa" are not criticisms.

352 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:16:15pm

re: #333 BigPapa

Earthquake rookie. Grew up in Cali and live in HI now. I looove earthquakes!!! (Unless they break my good wine bottles)

Which island?

353 Joshua Cohen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:16:45pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

Signs telling the President to "go back to Africa" are not criticisms.

Are there "NOT MY PRESIDENT!" signs yet?

354 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:00pm

re: #341 freetoken

Japan? OK, you're in The Shookie Club. (sign of The Duck and Cover)

355 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:01pm

re: #353 Joshua Cohen

Yes.

356 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #348 Guanxi88

Was raised up in my grandfather's lodge, had fellowship at the Harvard lodge, and hate that I fell out of it. Need to get in with my brothers here.

Sorry, I was making a joke. However, my grandfather and uncle were both Masons. I briefly considered trying to become a member, but I would have to profess my agnosticism when I was asked if I believed in a supreme being.

357 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:03pm

Here's some other fun stuff going on at the Values Voters Summit or whatever they're calling it:

Saturday morning’s speech by Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association may be the most valuable moment of this conference. It’s not often that Americans get an unambiguous look at the Religious Right’s extremely dangerous definition of religious liberty.
Religious liberty is of course a core American value, protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. And it’s the separation of church and state that protects the right of every American to worship or not as they choose, and protects all Americans from the government using its power to coerce religious belief or worship. It’s one of the constitutional principles that define this country.

Fischer basically attributed the idea of church-state separation to Adolf Hitler, who he said was the inspiration for the forces of “secular fundamentalism” who are bent on “castrating” the church and bringing America a “bleak, dark, vicious, tyrannical” future. Invoking Hitler is practically commonplace name-calling from the right these days. But it was not the most important or provocative point of his remarks.

Today Fischer went a good bit further than televangelist Pat Robertson, who notably called church-state separation a “lie of the left.” According to Fischer’s interpretation of the First Amendment, here’s what religious liberty means: Congress has the liberty to promote religion in any way, as long as it does not single out one Christian sect or denomination and make it the nation’s official religion. That’s it.

According to Fischer, “the only entity that is restrained by the First Amendment is the Congress of the United States.” Thus, he says, it is “constitutionally impossible” for governors, mayors, city councilmembers, or school administrators to violate the First Amendment. Fischer said the “incorporation doctrine” – the idea that the Fourteenth Amendment applied First Amendment protections against state governments, is the “most egregious” example of judicial activism.

So by his definition, a state legislature could declare itself an officially Christian state. Or an officially Baptist or Mormon state. Presumably any public school, city council or state government could require students to attend Christian worship or profess certain religious belief.

Fischer isn’t the only Religious Right leader who holds this radically extreme definition of religious liberty. In their 2008 book, “Personal Faith, Public Policy,” Religious Right leaders Tony Perkins and Harry Jackson said that a 1961 Supreme Court decision, which held that the state of Maryland could not require applicants for public office to swear that they believe in the existence of God, one of “the major assaults that have been successfully launched against the Christian faith in the last forty to fifty years.”

So, to these prominent Religious Right leaders, preventing a state from demanding that its employees swear to certain religious beliefs is an attack on Christianity. And any court that tries to stop a state from imposing religious beliefs on its citizens is judicial activism.



RightwingWatch

358 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:08pm

re: #349 iceweasel

I said at first that they have done some good work.
They've also stooped to some lows. I don't give a rat's about Lou Dobbs, but smearing him as a racist simply because they believe any one who wants to come to this country should be allowed in without question is wrong.
Just saying.

359 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:34pm

re: #332 Jimmah

Same tired old garbage we've been hearing from right wing extremists since Spncer was called out for his associations with fascist freaks. Give it a rest.

I know Jimmah, everyone on the right is an extremist. Everyone who attends Tea Parties and Town Hall meetings are extremist and drunk on the kool-aid of extreme religious bigots. Have an extra broad brushes?

Oh, I forgot...our POTUS has never associated with anyone of questionable character.

You're right, I need a rest.

360 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:39pm

re: #334 tradewind

Lace 'em up tight, Bloodnok, we hear the stalkers have plans.
//

I bet bloodnok is quaking in his boots "Oh no - another idiot is planning to die in a puddle of his own foam on LGF - and he's going to mention me in the flounce!"

361 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:45pm

re: #352 pianobuff

Which island?

FBI

(from Big Island, Kona)

362 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:17:49pm

re: #281 Guanxi88

The source or origins of the Otherness are largely irrelevant to schmittian analysis. Al l that is necessary is that the difference should be sufficient as to antagonize one party to violence, at which point the struggle immediately loses all purely cultural, religious, or racial significance, and becomes political in the schmittian sense. This is not to deny these elements, but the addition of violence immediately changes their character.

I admit had to look up Schmittian analysis after I realized you were not talking about some new lizard here.

Honestly, the summaries I scanned, after discounting the writers' love of their own prose, make me think he was a Hari Seldon wannabe.

OK, I'm being facetious; but really, isn't it more instructive just to read history and go with ones own instinct rather than think this is a science?

363 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:18:00pm

re: #356 John Neverbend

Sorry, I was making a joke. However, my grandfather and uncle were both Masons. I briefly considered trying to become a member, but I would have to profess my agnosticism when I was asked if I believed in a supreme being.

Was that from the Monty Python "architect sketch", with its "how to spot a mason" bit? Those handshakes in slow-mo were and are hilarious.

364 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:18:01pm

re: #322 Jimmah

Hey - they're finally letting us in the UK watch these online for free - great stuff!

If and when you're blocked from accessing a website because of country-specific restrictions, use a simple poxy such as this one:

[Link: hidemyass.com...]

365 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:18:23pm

re: #357 iceweasel

Can't wait to see signs at the next tea party saying:

James Madison = Hitler!

366 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:18:25pm

Small list of who else spoke at this conference:

Rep. Michele Bachmann
Stephen Baldwin
Gov. Mike Huckabee
Rep. Mike Pence
Gov. Rick Perry
Carrie Prejean
Phyllis Schlafly

Gov. Mitt Romney

[Link: www.valuesvotersummit.org...]

367 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:18:42pm

re: #325 tradewind

The only thing about using the SPLC as a source is that they themselves have a decidedly left wing agenda which is sometimes less than honest... while they have done some good work, they literally see hate and racism around every single corner, and often where it does not exist. They launched a vicious campaign against Lou Dobbs, calling him a racist and xenophobe for his views on illegal immigration, and whether or not you like Dobbs, you should see the example of how the SPLC often operates...

[Video]

Sorry, but I think it's Lou Dobbs who comes off terribly in that video.

368 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:19:02pm

re: #361 BigPapa

FBI

(from Big Island, Kona)

Neat. My wife has lots of family on Kauai, some on Oahu and Maui...not sure about Kona though.

369 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:19:08pm

Time for dinner...later.

370 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:19:36pm

re: #359 jorline

I know Jimmah, everyone on the right is an extremist. Everyone who attends Tea Parties and Town Hall meetings are extremist and drunk on the kool-aid of extreme religious bigots. Have an extra broad brushes?

Oh, I forgot...our POTUS has never associated with anyone of questionable character.

You're right, I need a rest.

Yes you do, because that pathetic strawman - another tired favourite of Spencer and his apologists incidentally - didn't cut any ice.

371 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:19:40pm

re: #363 Guanxi88

Was that from the Monty Python "architect sketch", with its "how to spot a mason" bit? Those handshakes in slow-mo were and are hilarious.

It probably was that sketch. It's the one where they're reviewing plans for an apartment building, and the architect who nearly got in at Hendon is proposing a design for an abattoir.

"Did you say rotating knives?"

372 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:19:44pm

re: #302 McSpiff

It's almost like... World War II and Iraq were different wars? Let's be honest. Iraq wasn't going to be taking over the world, or invading poland,etc. Many people somehow knew there was no WMD. That war was a choice we made. We can have a discussion on how valid that choice was, but don't compare that war to WWII.

The problem that Iraq posed was the same as it was for Gulf War I; his desire to conquer the Arabian Peninsula and perpetrate global energy blackmail. After he was expelled in Gulf War I, he planned to return when he (or his psychotic sons Uday and Qusay) could threaten nuclear retaliation upon anyone who thought about ejecting him. His plan was to amputate the spines of the alliance via subverting the sanctions regime, using funds diverted fom the Oil-For-Food program in order to corrupt UN Security Council members (notably France) and high UN officials (notably Kofi Annan), then use his country's vast oil wealth to accelerate his nuclear weapons pursuit. He spoke of his atomic scientists as 'nuclear mujaheddin', and was scavenging yellowcake, centifuges, and nuclear trigger explosives wherever he could find them.

He was far from achieving his nuclear goal, but when we thought he was far from achieving it before the Israelis bombed his French-built nuclear reactor at Osirak, it subsequently turned out he was only 18 months from a nuke - and the same info. came to light following Gulf War I. Were he allowed to obtain nukes and conquer the Arabian Peninsula before we responded, it would have cost the world dearly in blood and treasure to expel him again, but it also would have been necessary to do so. When the stakes are so egregiously high, it is far better to favor security and nip a problem in the bud before the radioactive blossom appears.

And now we see Iran stealing this strategy page from the late Saddam's geopolitical playbook, with one essential difference; they figure that if they develop nukes, invasdion will not be necessary in order to bend the Arabian Peninsula nations to their will. And those nations fear this, too - which is why there is major movement towards a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. Such cataclysmic weapons in the hands of such fatatic, totalitarian, irrational and unstable governments is a recipe for armageddon - which is why it is imperative that we also nip this trend in the bud by refusing to allow Iran to obtain nukes. Whatever the costs of prevention might be, the costs of dealing with the disastrous aftermath would be vastly dearer.

373 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:01pm

re: #362 Naso Tang

I admit had to look up Schmittian analysis after I realized you were not talking about some new lizard here.

Honestly, the summaries I scanned, after discounting the writers' love of their own prose, make me think he was a Hari Seldon wannabe.

OK, I'm being facetious; but really, isn't it more instructive just to read history and go with ones own instinct rather than think this is a science?

There may be something to just that approach, of course, but it puts political scientists out of business, and in this economy...

The patterns of history are there, of course, and reading Thucydides is every bit as important now as it was 500 years ago, as it will be a thousand years from now. But at some point, the insights of instinct can be systematized, precisely because the basic factors are always present and don't change much in their basic interactions.

374 Joshua Cohen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:03pm

re: #355 Sharmuta

Yes.

Reminds me to a Billy Joel song..."We didn't start the fire.. it was always burning since the world's been turning..."

375 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:06pm

re: #358 tradewind

I said at first that they have done some good work.
They've also stooped to some lows. I don't give a rat's about Lou Dobbs, but smearing him as a racist simply because they believe any one who wants to come to this country should be allowed in without question is wrong.
Just saying.

I think Dobbs is a racist, personally. So we are going to have to agree to disagree on that.
I'm more interested in what's going on at the Values Voters Summit the FRC and the AFA and all those other kooks are at this weekend, anyway. Not worth it to refight over whether Dobbs is a racist, IMO.

376 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:14pm

re: #346 Peg K

I personally do not see so much more "racist comments" as I see people claiming racism here, there, everywhere.

Not denying that the racists are out there. I'm only saying that an awful lot of people voted for President Obama - and even of those who did not, some (like myself) were glad to see this milestone achieved.

Many are simply being critical of this administration and Congress. They're not racists; they're Americans expressing their views about policies and direction.

Geez. This is a pretty rational statement; what's withn the downdings? Is this a discussion or a mob?

377 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:27pm

re: #357 iceweasel

It's easy to see why they voted for Huckabee as their favorite candidate. He wants to modify the constitution to be more in line with God's will.

378 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:42pm

re: #368 pianobuff

Neat. My wife has lots of family on Kauai, some on Oahu and Maui...not sure about Kona though.

Hawaii is a small place. It's just really spread out.

379 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:20:42pm

re: #367 Charles
It's not about who looks better... I just don't think they need to throw the racist label onto a talk show host simply because they don't agree with him. They led an active campaign to get him fired.

380 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:21:28pm

re: #371 John Neverbend

It probably was that sketch. It's the one where they're reviewing plans for an apartment building, and the architect who nearly got in at Hendon is proposing a design for an abattoir.

"Did you say rotating knives?"

Yes, that's the one, the "architect sketch." Hilarious stuff. Masonry is, in some ways, a victim of its own success - the triumph of masonic values was so complete, at least here in the states, that the benefits of brotherhood are enjoyed by just about everyone.

381 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:21:41pm

re: #378 BigPapa

Hawaii is a small place. It's just really spread out.

Yup. It's lovely out there. I'm sure we'll be due for a family visit to Kauai one of these days.

382 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:12pm

re: #375 iceweasel

I think Dobbs is a racist, personally. So we are going to have to agree to disagree on that.
I'm more interested in what's going on at the Values Voters Summit the FRC and the AFA and all those other kooks are at this weekend, anyway. Not worth it to refight over whether Dobbs is a racist, IMO.

Lou Dobbs and his little band of Minutemen and a fence that couldn't be sustained. Did you know that the majority of illegals don't cross uninhabited border location but come right through checkpoints? ;)

383 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:30pm

re: #380 Guanxi88

Yes, that's the one, the "architect sketch." Hilarious stuff. Masonry is, in some ways, a victim of its own success - the triumph of masonic values was so complete, at least here in the states, that the benefits of brotherhood are enjoyed by just about everyone.

I understand that Dan Brown's new book is positive towards Masonry.

384 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:40pm

re: #359 jorline

I know Jimmah, everyone on the right is an extremist. Everyone who attends Tea Parties and Town Hall meetings are extremist and drunk on the kool-aid of extreme religious bigots. Have an extra broad brushes?

Oh, I forgot...our POTUS has never associated with anyone of questionable character.

You're right, I need a rest.

Yes, you do need a rest, if you honestly are going to run some kind of Ayers! Wright! ACORN! Aiiieee! pants-wetting argument as an attempt to minimise, excuse, deny, or justify the increasingly dangerous crazy happening on the extremist right at the moment.

385 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:45pm

re: #377 Killgore Trout

It's easy to see why they voted for Huckabee as their favorite candidate. He wants to modify the constitution to be more in line with God's will.

maybe we should consider it...as soon as God sets an agenda via a presser or whatever

386 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:49pm

re: #368 pianobuff

Oh... sigh...
Princeville Hotel... most gorgeous place on earth...lucky you to have relatives to visit there!

387 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:22:53pm

re: #379 tradewind

It's not about who looks better... I just don't think they need to throw the racist label onto a talk show host simply because they don't agree with him. They led an active campaign to get him fired.

Huh?

Mark Potok says very clearly in that clip that he does not think Lou Dobbs is a racist. Did you miss that part?

However, some of the people he has on his show are indisputably racists.

388 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:23:08pm

re: #380 Guanxi88

Yes, that's the one, the "architect sketch." Hilarious stuff. Masonry is, in some ways, a victim of its own success - the triumph of masonic values was so complete, at least here in the states, that the benefits of brotherhood are enjoyed by just about everyone.

Good morning, gentlemen. This is a twelve-story block combining classical neo-Georgian features with the efficiency of modern techniques. The tenants arrive in the entrance hall here, and are carried along the corridor on a conveyor belt in extreme comfort and past murals depicting Mediterranean scenes, towards the rotating knives. The last twenty feet of the corridor are heavily soundproofed. The blood pours down these chutes and the mangled flesh slurps into these...

389 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:23:27pm

re: #376 MacDuff

Geez. This is a pretty rational statement; what's withn the downdings? Is this a discussion or a mob?

Why don't you ask each of the downdingers why they dinged that way, instead of talking to them as though they were a mob or something?

390 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:23:49pm

re: #383 John Neverbend

I understand that Dan Brown's new book is positive towards Masonry.

I wouldn't be surprised. It's more or less a blank slate or an empty box these days. You can put anything you want on or in it without much effect.

391 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:24:02pm

re: #379 tradewind

It's not about who looks better... I just don't think they need to throw the racist label onto a talk show host simply because they don't agree with him. They led an active campaign to get him fired.

Not because they 'didn't agree with him'. Because he was fostering and spreading racist sentiment. BTW, Dobbs also insisted that the nirthers had legitimate questions. Think there's a connection?

392 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:24:33pm

re: #364 ryannon

If and when you're blocked from accessing a website because of country-specific restrictions, use a simple poxy such as this one:

[Link: hidemyass.com...]

I use a similar one sometimes- I'd rather not have to though because it puts pop-up ads at the top of the screeen - also, download speeds aren't what they are running in 'honest' mode.

I want to ask though - this one you just posted me - can you access bbc programmes from the US with it? That's something the one I use can't manage. (In the interest of letting US friends watch what I'm watching on BBC i-player etc)

example : [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

393 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:24:39pm

re: #372 Salamantis

WW II and Iraq, sure, no comparison.

Hitler and Hussien, they could be compared all day as some of the purest fucking evil ever to come to absolute power. Luckily there was somebody to do something about it.

394 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:24:40pm

re: #386 tradewind

Oh... sigh...
Princeville Hotel... most gorgeous place on earth...lucky you to have relatives to visit there!

But when we go it really is all the typical family stuff, sadly. We usually disappear for a couple of days at the back end though. The family is all closer to Lihue so we're usually somewhere in that area.

395 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:25:18pm

re: #370 Jimmah

Yes you do, because that pathetic strawman - another tired favourite of Spencer and his apologists incidentally - didn't cut any ice.

Now I'm a Spencer apologist?

Jimmah, you reek of McCarthyism.

396 JEA62  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:26:04pm

re: #372 Salamantis

World War III, anyone...?

397 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:26:21pm

re: #388 pianobuff

...and the mangled flesh slurps into these...

One of the best Python lines ever.

398 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:26:21pm

Again, I highly recommend watching the Tanenhaus interview, in which he touches upon many of the themes discussed here of late:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

He touches on the need for Buckley to kick the JBS to curb, the "Americanists" of Beck, etc.

399 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:26:31pm

re: #370 Jimmah

- didn't cut any ice.

What, no iDub love, Jimmah-ski?

Youtube Video
400 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:26:41pm

Update on this strange case...

Man in terror probe meets with attorney, not FBI

A man under investigation in a terrorism probe in New York and Colorado didn't report for a fourth day of FBI questioning Saturday so he could spend a much-needed day with his attorney, the attorney's spokeswoman said.

Najibullah Zazi had been scheduled to go to the Federal Building in Denver on Saturday. But Wendy Aiello, a spokeswoman for Zazi's defense team, told The Associated Press that Zazi and his attorney contacted the FBI to cancel the meeting.

"They are meeting as client and attorney to review the case and the entire situation," Aiello said. "Further meetings with the FBI are not being ruled out."

401 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:28:08pm

re: #393 BigPapa

WW II and Iraq, sure, no comparison.

Hitler and Hussien, they could be compared all day as some of the purest fucking evil ever to come to absolute power. Luckily there was somebody to do something about it.

Interestingly (and repellently) enough, Saddam had portraits of Hitler and Stalin hung in his Presidential office.

402 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:28:11pm

re: #400 Killgore Trout

Update on this strange case...

Man in terror probe meets with attorney, not FBI

Whole case has been weird from the start. Why do we know anything about it in the first place? How big or small is this deal? Is this guy a big fish or a minnow, or what?

403 spiderx  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:28:51pm

i think the GOP is trying to bait the left with their code word racism. And by baiting the left they can make the conversation about race. They can make it to Obama has to answer questions about it. They are trying to make Obama all about race.

404 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:28:55pm

re: #401 Salamantis

Interestingly (and repellently) enough, Saddam had portraits of Hitler and Stalin hung in his Presidential office.

I understand he liked The Godfather movie quite a bit, and even chose some clothing based on it.

405 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:29:11pm

re: #364 ryannon

If and when you're blocked from accessing a website because of country-specific restrictions, use a simple poxy such as this one:

[Link: hidemyass.com...]

proxy

pimf

406 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:29:16pm

re: #382 Gus 802

Lou Dobbs and his little band of Minutemen and a fence that couldn't be sustained. Did you know that the majority of illegals don't cross uninhabited border location but come right through checkpoints? ;)

heh. No, I did not. Reminds me of this classic onion bit though-- actually I think it might have been posted here, possibly? In comments? Can't remember.

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

407 jorline  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:30:01pm

re: #384 iceweasel

Yes, you do need a rest, if you honestly are going to run some kind of Ayers! Wright! ACORN! Aiiieee! pants-wetting argument as an attempt to minimise, excuse, deny, or justify the increasingly dangerous crazy happening on the extremist right at the moment.

Noted...thanks for the advise. Honestly, I worry about people with your mind set more dear.

You and Jimmah should be a WWF tag team duo.

Back to dinner...later lizards.

408 pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:30:13pm

re: #404 Guanxi88

I understand he liked The Godfather movie quite a bit, and even chose some clothing based on it.

I wonder if Saddam ever wore a fedora.

409 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:30:21pm

re: #406 iceweasel

heh. No, I did not. Reminds me of this classic onion bit though-- actually I think it might have been posted here, possibly? In comments? Can't remember.

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

That video's a hoot!

410 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:30:31pm

re: #395 jorline

Now I'm a Spencer apologist?

Jimmah, you reek of McCarthyism.

Sorry jorline - but in making the 'lets be done with the 'infighting' that calling out racism constitutes' argument and then when challenged on that, equating criticism of right wing extremism and racism with an attempt to smear everyone on the right, when nothing of the sort has been done, you are echoing Spencers arguments to the tee.

411 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:30:54pm

re: #395 jorline

Now I'm a Spencer apologist?

Jimmah, you reek of McCarthyism.

He didn't say that. He pointed out it's a tactic also employed by Spencer and his apologists. And he's right.

412 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:31:44pm

re: #402 Guanxi88

Why is he meeting voluntarily with the FBI? Why are they daily leaking what happens in the interviews? Why did they announce him a a key suspect 3 days before they searched his apartment? Makes no sense at all.

413 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:32:12pm

re: #389 wrenchwench

Why don't you ask each of the downdingers why they dinged that way, instead of talking to them as though they were a mob or something?

Uh, maybe because this is a common forum? A bit defensive aren't we?

414 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:32:12pm

re: #407 jorline

Noted...thanks for the advise. Honestly, I worry about people with your mind set more dear.

You and Jimmah should be a WWF tag team duo.

Who says we're not?

I'm always amused by people who I shred so badly in an argument that they're reduced to calling me 'honey' or 'dear'.
In your dreams.

415 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:32:29pm

re: #403 spiderx

Yup, I think that's a factor.

416 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:33:39pm

Anyone who thinks that the President doesn't or can't weigh in to Justice on cases they want pursued or dismissed should see this:
(It's not going to help him with the LGTG community, but he's doing it anyway...)
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

417 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:34:30pm

re: #389 wrenchwench

Why don't you ask each of the downdingers why they dinged that way, instead of talking to them as though they were a mob or something?

Presumably they thought the comment was an apology for the worst of the apologists that we are critical of, myself included. Personally I take the comment at face value, but perhaps you know of prior posts that put it in better context, given your response above.

Why don't you do the honors?

418 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:35:16pm

I send the SPLC regular updates on hate group activity here in the Lubbock area. I would not knowingly be part of some lefty propaganda op and I flatter myself that I am not easily duped.

Btw, such activities have been increasing since the first of the year. There is now an organized KKK group in Lubbock, something we have not had here since vigilantes ran them out of town in 1926 at the instigation of a local editor.

419 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:35:33pm

re: #384 iceweasel

Isn't multi-tasking possible? I have that ability.

420 Racer X  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:36:11pm

re: #403 spiderx

i think the GOP is trying to bait the left with their code word racism. And by baiting the left they can make the conversation about race. They can make it to Obama has to answer questions about it. They are trying to make Obama all about race.

I disagree. Why would the GOP want to talk about race? There is plenty to debate without even mentioning race.

421 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:36:20pm

re: #406 iceweasel

heh. No, I did not. Reminds me of this classic onion bit though-- actually I think it might have been posted here, possibly? In comments? Can't remember.

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

Watch this when you have the time.

It's a John Stossel video. 6 minutes. It get pretty "funny" towards the end.

422 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:36:26pm

re: #418 shiplord kirel

Btw, such activities have been increasing since the first of the year. There is now an organized KKK group in Lubbock, something we have not had here since vigilantes ran them out of town in 1926 at the instigation of a local editor.


Yikes.

423 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:36:41pm

re: #323 jorline

Hey talon.

Trust me, my heads not in the sand. I'm not insinuating conspiracy theories, but I am tired of the nitpicking with everything on the right. Right now we have become our own worst enemy with all of the infighting. If you think our real enemies have have lost focus on their overall objective then your head is buried in the sand.
We won't have to wait for the next 9/11, we'll just implode and all Al Qaeda has to do is wait for the dust to settle.

Just chew on this one for a bit...if those of us who are conservatives (or lean in that direction) can't fight to win against the Birthers, the Paulians, the racists, and the bigots about what it truly means to be a conservative and how it affects the way this country is ran, then the battle against external threats (such as in the GWOT) may already be lost.

/No Paulians, Birchers, bigots, racists, or fascists in my foxhole!

424 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:37:03pm

re: #419 debutaunt

Isn't multi-tasking possible? I have that ability.

Not following you. Suggesting that excusing, minimising and denying are all going on at once? probably!

425 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:38:30pm

re: #413 MacDuff

Uh, maybe because this is a common forum? A bit defensive aren't we?


I'm not defending anything, I didn't ding that one. I guess you missed the irony of calling out a group for acting like a mob.

426 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:40:12pm

re: #420 Racer X

I disagree. Why would the GOP want to talk about race? There is plenty to debate without even mentioning race.

Because they would love nothing better than to paint Obama as a angry black man and radical. They've had some mild success with that, but mostly on the extreme right. Wright, etc. But that's why they're fascinated with forcing Obama to talk about race, and forcing the media narrative to be about race.

They mostly had to focus on the notion of Michelle as angry black radical who hates whitey...and notice how rapidly the campaign responded, reshaping her into "my role is First Mom in Chief".

427 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:40:50pm

#403 spiderx

And I think that Democrats are finding "racism" under every nook and cranny because they do not want to discuss the issues on their merits. So far, on THAT score, they haven't been doing so well.

Again; not saying there aren't racists out there nor that they don't make racist statements. Only that reports of vicious racism being rampant on the right is way, way, way overblown.

428 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:41:43pm

re: #392 Jimmah

I use a similar one sometimes- I'd rather not have to though because it puts pop-up ads at the top of the screeen - also, download speeds aren't what they are running in 'honest' mode.

I want to ask though - this one you just posted me - can you access bbc programmes from the US with it? That's something the one I use can't manage. (In the interest of letting US friends watch what I'm watching on BBC i-player etc)

example : [Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]


Can't say, since I'm not in the U.S. I'm due South across the Channel from where you are, and from here, the proxy isn't able to access your BBC episode.

Which of course makes me think it won't work from the U.S. either.

I guess you get what you pay for - although it did work for me in the past when I needed it...

429 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:42:24pm

re: #399 iceweasel

What, no iDub love, Jimmah-ski?

Au contraire, iceweaselski:

"You drift through the years
and life seems tame
till one dream appears,
and love is it's name"

Youtube Video
430 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:42:40pm

re: #408 pianobuff

I wonder if Saddam ever wore a fedora.

Yes, yes he did:

Image: saddam_gun.jpg

431 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:42:47pm

re: #421 Gus 802

Watch this when you have the time.

It's a John Stossel video. 6 minutes. It get pretty "funny" towards the end.

Holy cow! yikes

432 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:43:01pm

re: #420 Racer X

I disagree. Why would the GOP want to talk about race? There is plenty to debate without even mentioning race.

Depends who you listen to. I heard Rush L on the radio for the first time the other day, and posted about it somewhere earlier.

I was amazed. He spouted nothing but race; meaning nothing but "being accused of being racist".

But the punch line was more than just whining; it was a conspiracy orchestrated by the White House and the president personally in order to create racist situations that could be blamed on the GOP.

If there were any GOP politicians with the balls to tell Rush to go back to his pills and shut the F up, then they could talk about other things, but they are happy to let him spew. Why is that?

Did I forget to mention Beck?//

433 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:44:36pm

re: #427 Peg K

#403 spiderx

And I think that Democrats are finding "racism" under every nook and cranny because they do not want to discuss the issues on their merits. So far, on THAT score, they haven't been doing so well.

Again; not saying there aren't racists out there nor that they don't make racist statements. Only that reports of vicious racism being rampant on the right is way, way, way overblown.

Ah yes. Return of the Son of Wingnut Meme: "it's not the racists that are the problem, it's the people talking about it and pointing out racism that are the real problem."

Bored now.

434 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:45:31pm

re: #425 wrenchwench

I'm not defending anything, I didn't ding that one. I guess you missed the irony of calling out a group for acting like a mob.

I thought the post, as it was written was reasonable.

Unreasonable reaction to reasonable post = mob mentality. No irony present.

435 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:46:15pm

re: #408 pianobuff

I wonder if Saddam ever wore a fedora.

re: #430 Guanxi88

Yes, yes he did:

[Link: pekingduck.org...]

And looked mighty sharp in it, I might add.

436 Bloodnok  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:46:18pm

re: #251 Charles

One of the stalkers is planning a flounce, with an attack on LGF lizard 'Bloodnok'.

Heh. Just noticing this. I didn't even see this the first time around (I had no idea what tradewind was talking about downthread).

Oh well. You'll have to fill me in later. I'm sure it will be a reasoned, fact filled assessment of my character. Hope they're not offended that I don't care enough to stick around for it. /

437 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:47:05pm

John Boehner Jumps the Shark:

Boehner: 'Tea Party' Protests a Legitimate 'Political Rebellion'

Congratulations Mr. Boehner on supporting a Ron Paulian, Dominionist, Nirther, anit-Fed Reserve, Insurance and Hospital Corporation PAC event.

This was actually at the same "Values Voters" event.

438 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:47:49pm

re: #434 MacDuff

Did you look at who did the dinging?

439 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:47:55pm

re: #425 wrenchwench

I'm not defending anything, I didn't ding that one. I guess you missed the irony of calling out a group for acting like a mob.

I saw the word too, but didn't take it that personally. There are lots of things said here that could be rewritten better. No big deal.

440 Racer X  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:48:37pm

If the GOP is intentionally turning the conversation to race then the game is over. Democrats have won, and we will be stuck with Obama and his foolish policies for many years to come.

441 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:50:41pm

re: #436 Bloodnok

Heh. Just noticing this. I didn't even see this the first time around (I had no idea what tradewind was talking about downthread).

Oh well. You'll have to fill me in later. I'm sure it will be a reasoned, fact filled assessment of my character. Hope they're not offended that I don't care enough to stick around for it. /

YOUR GOING DOWN BLOODNOK!
*wink*

442 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:52:14pm

re: #436 Bloodnok

Heh. Just noticing this. I didn't even see this the first time around (I had no idea what tradewind was talking about downthread).

Oh well. You'll have to fill me in later. I'm sure it will be a reasoned, fact filled assessment of my character. Hope they're not offended that I don't care enough to stick around for it. /

Prepare for a rhetorical "assault!"

And you know how good they are at rhetoric -- regular old wordsmiths. You'll have to be fast thought because it probably won't stay up for more than 3 seconds.

//

443 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:52:15pm

re: #441 HoosierHoops

YOUR GOING DOWN BLOODNOK!
*wink*

lol! :)

444 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:52:19pm

re: #427 Peg K

#403 spiderx

And I think that Democrats are finding "racism" under every nook and cranny because they do not want to discuss the issues on their merits. So far, on THAT score, they haven't been doing so well.

Again; not saying there aren't racists out there nor that they don't make racist statements. Only that reports of vicious racism being rampant on the right is way, way, way overblown.

Sorry, Peg, but the racists are real this time around. I am the first to admit the term has been over-used and therefore cheapened. Democrats and liberals are in the position of the boy trying to convince someone there really is a wolf out there this time, but that doesn't make the wolf any less real.

445 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:52:53pm

re: #438 wrenchwench

Did you look at who did the dinging?

Again, common question to a common forum. What's so hard to understand about that?

446 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:53:20pm

re: #445 MacDuff

Again, common question to a common forum. What's so hard to understand about that?

Did you look?

447 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:54:11pm

re: #436 Bloodnok

You've hit the big time when stalkers want to flounce to you. ;)

448 sagehen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:54:24pm

re: #374 Joshua Cohen

Reminds me to a Billy Joel song..."We didn't start the fire.. it was always burning since the world's been turning..."


Youtube Video
449 AuntAcid  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:56:12pm

re: #440 Racer X

If the GOP is intentionally turning the conversation to race then the game is over. Democrats have won, and we will be stuck with Obama and his foolish policies for many years to come.

"...we will be stuck with Obama and his foolish policies for many years to come.

that's a bit harsh...
/

450 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:58:13pm

re: #437 Gus 802

Not surprising. Rep. Pence actually spoke at the event, and he is just one rung down on the GOP leadership from Boehner.

451 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:58:18pm

444 shiplord kirel

No one is denying there aren't "wolves" out there. Yep, there are some. Always have been; always will (although there are not anywhere as many today as there used to be.)

Nope. The left is using race to vilify all of the right, because they can't win on the issues. They see themselves losing, and they are desperate.

Actually, quite pathetic. Instead of bearing down and trying to win on issues and argumentation, they are using the race card to drown out the real message of libertarians, free marketers, and the like.

Many conservatives rail against racists and despise them. They only want to address the real issues and problems facing our nation.

452 avanti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:58:34pm

Here's my late take on the entire monkey issue. I'm not sure the monkey story by itself was anymore a intentional swipe at Obama than the lipstick on a pig comment was against Palin. They both should have known better than to make the statements, but to me, the statements in isolation were not that big a deal.
The cynic in me says the monkey story "could" have been intentional, but I'm agnostic on the issue.

The associations with the family values group is a different issue.

453 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:59:00pm

re: #302 McSpiff

It's almost like... World War II and Iraq were different wars? Let's be honest. Iraq wasn't going to be taking over the world, or invading poland,etc. Many people somehow knew there was no WMD. That war was a choice we made. We can have a discussion on how valid that choice was, but don't compare that war to WWII.

I has to come back to this again, to point out that my quoting of George Orwell in #287 was not to claim that WW II and the Iraq War were identical, it was to point out a specific application of a general principle: ANY domestic anti-war effort objectively aids one's military adversary/ies by weakening national steadfastness and resolve. It happened in WW I, WW II, the Korean War, it happened big-time in Vietnam, and it happened with the Iraq War (II more so than I).

And now we see it beginning to happen re: Afghanistan.

454 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:59:18pm

re: #449 AuntAcid

When you have Jimmy Carter out there making headlines, it's not so clear which party is turning the conversation to race .
It's ( a conversation on race) the last thing the Obama administration wants, btw... because this whole issue will simply churn the waters and prevent his programs from sailing smoothly downstream.

455 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:59:28pm

re: #446 wrenchwench

Did you look?

Individuals downdinged that comment for their own individual reason. Are you really saying that Charles, Salamantis, Sharmuta, iceweasel and myself constitute a mob?

456 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #447 Sharmuta

You've hit the big time when stalkers want to flounce to you. ;)

It's really not fair...16k posts and nobody wants to flounce in my name..
What has a guy got to do?
Flounce in my name damn it! Repeat after me...
I flounce in the name of HoosierHoops...Do it!
*wink*

457 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:07pm

re: #455 Jimmah

Individuals downdinged that comment for their own individual reason. Are you really saying that Charles, Salamantis, Sharmuta, iceweasel and myself constitute a mob?

That is addressed to MacDuff - sorry, wrenchwrench!

458 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:31pm

#452 avanti

The "family values" group loses me big time on gay rights issues. That is where I personally see more bigotry. Still - I'm a "try to win them over eventually with sweetness" person. I figure you do not change people's minds by calling them horrific names ... and yes; I do want to try - somehow, some way - to change their minds. Perhaps an impossible task - yet - sometimes impossible tasks are achieved.

459 red collar  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:41pm

I just watched this video and yes, there's a call to say this is racism.

Then again, Al Franken is like a trained monkey, but without the training...and that's not racism.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a Republican. Let's never forget that.

460 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:50pm

re: #450 freetoken

Not surprising. Rep. Pence actually spoke at the event, and he is just one rung down on the GOP leadership from Boehner.

Yep, and Blunt is the Republican Whip.

And Huckabee won a straw poll today for 2012.

They're on the road to nowhere.

461 McSpiff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:55pm

re: #453 Salamantis

If you honestly believe that, more power to you.

462 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:00:59pm

re: #455 Jimmah

Individuals downdinged that comment for their own individual reason. Are you really saying that Charles, Salamantis, Sharmuta, iceweasel and myself constitute a mob?

I know that I have received at least one downding from all of those others...;~)

463 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:01:21pm

re: #451 Peg K

Nope. The left is using race to vilify all of the right, because they can't win on the issues. They see themselves losing, and they are desperate.

I don't know what you mean by "the left", but if we look at the historical record of Presidential elections, the last "conservative"/Republican to get any serious fraction of the popular vote was RR. Since then it has been pretty much downhill.

I agree with Tanenhaus on his claim that "conservatism" (as a movement) has become ideologically bankrupt, which is why the Americanists have taken to the forefront of the movement.

464 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:01:40pm

re: #455 Jimmah

Individuals downdinged that comment for their own individual reason. Are you really saying that Charles, Salamantis, Sharmuta, iceweasel and myself constitute a mob?

I dinged it down because like I already said- signs at protests that say the President should "go back to Africa" are not criticisms. So to say these protests are about criticisms of the President is just not true.

465 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:01:42pm

re: #451 Peg K


Nope. The left is using race to vilify all of the right, because they can't win on the issues. They see themselves losing, and they are desperate.

Wingnut propaganda and wish fullfillment fantasies.

That isn't what's happening right now. Not at all. It's the right that is desperate--and that's why even elected GOP officials are eager to pander to nirthers and other nuts.

466 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:01:59pm

re: #456 HoosierHoops

It's really not fair...16k posts and nobody wants to flounce in my name..

Perhaps they agree with what you have contributed to this blog.///

467 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:02:35pm

re: #451 Peg K

Many conservatives rail against racists and despise them. They only want to address the real issues and problems facing our nation.

That's what we're doing here and now. I thought you were complaining about it. Maybe I misunderstood.

468 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:06:37pm

That Hoops guy... who does he think he is with his *winks* and always so nice to that Sharmuta chick. Can't stand him. If I have to put up with the likes of him than just delete my account!11 Oh- and pass me one of those delicious martyr cookies, please. Thanks.

469 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:07:11pm

re: #467 wrenchwench

That's what we're doing here and now. I thought you were complaining about it. Maybe I misunderstood.

It would be nice if we could loudly complain about the idiotic racism and also complain about the idiotic policies.

470 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:08:09pm

Was that okay, Hoops? Love ya, Darlin'.

471 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:08:17pm

re: #456 HoosierHoops

I'll flounce with the Hoopster!
It's some kinda dance, right?

///must I?

472 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:09:00pm

re: #469 debutaunt

It would be nice if we could loudly complain about the idiotic racism and also complain about the idiotic policies.

On the other hand, I think it's a good thing nobody here is using a microphone. Or if they are, I can't hear 'em.

473 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:09:05pm

re: #466 John Neverbend

Perhaps they agree with what you have contributed to this blog.///

I am the worst blogger in the world according to some..The lowest of the lowest...
It's really funny when you think about it...
Often I wish I could contribute a richness to LGF...I offer little but humor and hope...My life has been deeply enriched by being here.. I even read half the links these days..
*wink*

474 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:09:30pm

re: #457 Jimmah

That is addressed to MacDuff - sorry, wrenchwrench!

That damned mob mentality again; hard to tell who is who... :=>

*joke?*

475 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:10:20pm

re: #387 Charles

Huh?

Mark Potok says very clearly in that clip that he does not think Lou Dobbs is a racist. Did you miss that part?

However, some of the people he has on his show are indisputably racists.

Immigration seems to be one of the core topics over at the VDARE site. It's easy to figure out why: illegal immigration is a hot-button issue for lots of people, and it's easy to exploit outrage over illegals and nudge it toward outrage over people who are a little too...dark for VDARE's taste. It isn't immigration VDARE cares about; it's all those less-than-white immigrants that troubles them, and they're hoping to tap other's outrage and exploit it for their own purposes.

There are reams of such crap over there. It's sickening.

Malkin was off on the same nut just this morning, with an article trying to whip up outrage over illegal immigrants purchasing homes in the US and the banks lending to them - neither of which is at all illegal, as you don't have to be a citizen to either purchase real estate or to qualify for a mortgage. But Malkin's typically disjointed screed wasn't concerned with facts. It was aimed at drumming up outrage.

Oddly, for Malkin, the article was pulled by mid-morning. I wonder if the commotion at Hot Air and the sudden focus on VDARE, her contributions to their site and other revelations of racism within the rightward blogosphere had anything to do with it being yanked?

476 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:11:16pm

re: #475 SixDegrees

Yes, they regularly trash legal immigrants who happen to be of a different color...

477 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:11:32pm

re: #227 borgcube

Either this was planned and calculated with racial overtones or it was completely innocent.

If it was planned, the planning began 3 years ago. Like JanglerNPL noted earlier in the thread, Blunt gave the same speech to the Heritage Foundation in 2006. There's an audio recording here.

I suppose one could say that Blunt has endowed the speech a new connotation more recently, but I don't think that's the case.

478 MacDuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:11:50pm

re: #446 wrenchwench

Did you look?

I thought the reaction to a reasonable argument to be disproportionate, and I stated my view. You seem to be intent on spending the entire evening dissecting my rationale. I don't give a damn who voiced their opinion; who they are has no bearing on my view of the post in question.

479 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:11:50pm

re: #473 HoosierHoops

I am the worst blogger in the world according to some..

So, you're not the blogger's blogger.

480 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:12:08pm

#465 iceweasel

So are Pew and Gallup and all the other pollsters that show support for the various Democrat health care plans not being popular bogus? Are the polls showing Congress at all time lows, and President Obama's popularity faltering also false?

Please demonstrate where we see the strong overall support for health care proposals, takeover of auto companies, and the like from the Democrats. I must have missed it.

481 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:12:31pm

re: #449 AuntAcid

"...we will be stuck with Obama and his foolish policies for many years to come.

that's a bit harsh...
/

re: #451 Peg K

444 shiplord kirel

No one is denying there aren't "wolves" out there. Yep, there are some. Always have been; always will (although there are not anywhere as many today as there used to be.)

Nope. The left is using race to vilify all of the right, because they can't win on the issues. They see themselves losing, and they are desperate.

Actually, quite pathetic. Instead of bearing down and trying to win on issues and argumentation, they are using the race card to drown out the real message of libertarians, free marketers, and the like.

Many conservatives rail against racists and despise them. They only want to address the real issues and problems facing our nation.

It doesn't help when the GOP "leadership" makes nice with and courts the Paulians and the CofCCers (and worse)...if not by words, then they do by deeds.

/the kook "right-wing" doesn't need any help from the left on this shit..they're doing it all on their own

482 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #479 John Neverbend

So, you're not the blogger's blogger.

Could you imagine if you travelled into the past and tried to explain this word to your grandparents?

"No, actually Blogs weren't something that came from outer space and terrorized the human race and ate our brains. Oh, some people acted like their brains had been eated, but no, that's not what Blogs were."

483 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:14:19pm

re: #475 SixDegrees


Oddly, for Malkin, the article was pulled by mid-morning. I wonder if the commotion at Hot Air and the sudden focus on VDARE, her contributions to their site and other revelations of racism within the rightward blogosphere had anything to do with it being yanked?

My guess is yes. Malkin is completely shameless. She never retracts or apologises or even sends posts down the memory hole, no matter how wrong she is and no matter how roundly derided and humiliated she is elsewhere. She relies on being an ever-producing torrent of wingnut bile, and her squirrel-cage of rabid commenters never reading anywhere else or caring about anything but their next Angry fix.

So if she's deleting a post...that's highly interesting and atypical.

484 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:15:37pm

Fox News reporter gets ejected from the archaic FRC Values Voter Summit.

Interesting blog here as well:

I later found out from one of the other bloggers who had been shut out that apparently Bill O’Reilly didn’t want any press in the room while he spoke.

I confirmed with one of the FRC media liaisons that this was indeed a stipulation of Bill O’Reilly’s.

I’m sorry, but that seems more than a little hypocritical of Bill O’Reilly to say the least.

After all, the man (who I like very much to watch and agree with on most things) gives no quarter to anyone on his show. That’s essentially how a good reporter should be: not put up with the spin.

Yet he’s afraid to have the media report on his speech?

Say it ain’t so, Bill!

Youtube Video
485 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #475 SixDegrees

Maybe so, legally speaking, but have to wonder if you can walk into a bank anywhere else in the world and get a loan without proving your legal status in the country. Malkin is a rabble rouser, but I don't know how to counter that issue, nor if I want to.

486 John Neverbend  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:16:52pm

re: #482 EmmmieG

Could you imagine if you travelled into the past and tried to explain this word to your grandparents?

I expect they'd give the response attributed to King George V, "I thought men like that shot themselves," to which I would reply, "I said blogger."

487 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:18:16pm

re: #480 Peg K

#465 iceweasel

So are Pew and Gallup and all the other pollsters that show support for the various Democrat health care plans not being popular bogus? Are the polls showing Congress at all time lows, and President Obama's popularity faltering also false?

Please demonstrate where we see the strong overall support for health care proposals, takeover of auto companies, and the like from the Democrats. I must have missed it.

Obama got a bounce after his health care speech, and while Congress approval ratings are low (deservedly) -- it's the GOPers that are truly at the bottom.

There is strong support for health reform-- even McCain ran on it -- and the polls often reflect the success of wingnut lies and misinformation, more than a true measure of support for the actual proposals. Everytime a wingnut smear is debunked, the support goes up.
That's why they relentlessly pump out new ones.

488 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:18:25pm

re: #476 freetoken

Yes, they regularly trash legal immigrants who happen to be of a different color...

Yes, I noticed that as well. But illegal immigration is a cash cow for them - it's easy, as noted, to snag someone upset over the number here illegally and twist that into hatred of anyone who looks like them, too. And before you know it, we won't just be marching 10 or 12 million illegals across the border in shackles - we'll be delighting VDARE by adding another 10 or 50 or 100 million because of the race-based hatred they manage to stir up.

489 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:19:50pm

re: #482 EmmmieG

Could you imagine if you travelled into the past and tried to explain this word to your grandparents?

"No, actually Blogs weren't something that came from outer space and terrorized the human race and ate our brains. Oh, some people acted like their brains had been eated, but no, that's not what Blogs were."

They would recognize them as the people who stood on soapboxes in the park and talked or sometimes, if the message was brief, they wore signs and stood on the street corner.

490 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:21:50pm

re: #462 Salamantis

I know that I have received at least one downding from all of those others...;~)

I have to confess to being one of those! (But only rarely, and with a heavy heart) :)

491 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:22:36pm

re: #484 Gus 802

Fox News reporter gets ejected from the archaic FRC Values Voter Summit.

Interesting blog here as well:

[Video]

Great stuff, Gus. I hope CJ does a post on the whole Values Voters Summit. It's so creepy-- and so indicative of what's happening to the right.

492 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:23:51pm

re: #478 MacDuff

I thought the reaction to a reasonable argument to be disproportionate, and I stated my view. You seem to be intent on spending the entire evening dissecting my rationale. I don't give a damn who voiced their opinion; who they are has no bearing on my view of the post in question.

Your original statement:

Geez. This is a pretty rational statement; what's withn the downdings? Is this a discussion or a mob?

If you don't want responses, don't "state your view" in the form of questions.

493 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:24:11pm

re: #491 iceweasel

Great stuff, Gus. I hope CJ does a post on the whole Values Voters Summit. It's so creepy-- and so indicative of what's happening to the right.

Isn't it? And these are some of the same crew that complains when there isn't enough press coverage. The irony is that it was done here to a Fox News reporter.

494 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:24:51pm

re: #479 John Neverbend

So, you're not the blogger's blogger.

I don't know how Charles does it...I stood up for Charles one night and just caught living hell...My website was completely trashed...
OK you fucks.. I like Charles and I'll stand beside him during this period of insanity in right wing politics...
And all you supposed friends that have left here and trashed me on other Blogs..I haven't changed one little bit...It was you that ran straight right and jumped off the the cliff...How fucking dare you accuse me of anything..I haven't changed one little bit...
LGF is an anti idiot site...What do you not understand about that concept?

495 shiplord kirel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:25:37pm

Texas Tech up 3-0 on Texas.
Typical Tech drive though: Move smartly down the field, make a dumb mistake when it really counts in the red zone (false start this time) , miss the touchdown.

496 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:25:41pm

re: #493 Gus 802

Isn't it? And these are some of the same crew that complains when there isn't enough press coverage. The irony is that it was done here to a Fox News reporter.

What kind of press coverage would they approve of? The mind recoils...

497 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:25:49pm

{Hoops}!

498 tradewind  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:26:53pm

Sorry for O/T, but I have to leave and this is just pigs flying all over the place.
I mean, the NYT , for pete's sakes!
If you haven't seen this Daily Show clip, you've missed a howler. Still can't believe that Stewart actually had it in him...
[Link: opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...]

499 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:27:08pm

re: #483 iceweasel

My guess is yes. Malkin is completely shameless. She never retracts or apologises or even sends posts down the memory hole, no matter how wrong she is and no matter how roundly derided and humiliated she is elsewhere. She relies on being an ever-producing torrent of wingnut bile, and her squirrel-cage of rabid commenters never reading anywhere else or caring about anything but their next Angry fix.

So if she's deleting a post...that's highly interesting and atypical.

I was ready to drop a long comment on it about her large presence on the VDARE site and ask her to square her derision of perfectly legal activities with the views found over there. I visited VDARE for about half an hour - a sickening experience, by the way - and by the time I got back to her site, the article was gone, without a trace. It isn't unusual to see stories move from pole position off to the sidebar, but this one simply vanished. Activity on Saturday over there is also unusual. It struck me as odd, and I couldn't help but speculate on the connection with Hot Air's emerging troubles.

I'm willing to believe, for the moment, that the huge page of links to her article, her publicity photo and all the quotes from her found at the VDARE site are there without her knowledge. That sort of thing happens all the time. I've had material lifted off my website and displayed on another without my consent. And when it happens, a quick email is normally all it takes to get it removed; I'd like to see Malkin investigate the VDARE site for herself and ask them to remove what look like her endorsements from it.

Or, to allow them to stand without such action, and acknowledge her agreement with the folks running that site.

Either action will speak volumes about her many past articles on race and immigration.

500 Peg K  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:27:21pm

#487 iceweasel

Didn't you see that the bounce went down again? No more popular now than prior to the speech.

As for popularity for health reform - absolutely it is there! But many - including some Democrats - want very different types of reform than what this administration is describing. They want reform of the sort that the Whole Foods CEO proposed, or Megan McArdle, etc., etc.

That's what they don't want to discuss - ergo the smoke and mirrors about issues that are not pertinent and distracting.

501 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:28:47pm

re: #482 EmmmieG

Could you imagine if you travelled into the past and tried to explain this word to your grandparents?

"No, actually Blogs weren't something that came from outer space and terrorized the human race and ate our brains. Oh, some people acted like their brains had been eated, but no, that's not what Blogs were."

As someone else pointed out, a 'blog' looks like something you leave in the toilet, and maybe photograph to send to Penthouse. "Oh, man, you should see the blog I laid in there this morning! I kept it - go check it out!"

502 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:28:58pm

re: #496 Jimmah

re: #493 Gus 802

Semi-OT, but not really. Just found this great short post by Lindsey Beyerstein (aka Majikthise) over at ObWi. It really captures what the ruling ethos of the GOP seems to be at the moment:

Czars and learned helplessness

Psychologist Martin Seligman discovered that if you administer enough random shocks to a dog, the dog will eventually get so demoralized that it won't even try to avoid them when can easily do so. He called the phenomenon learned helplessness. Helpless dogs were paralyzed in situations they were capable of handling with aplomb.

Inducing learned helplessness seems to be the GOP strategy for the Obama age. Karl Rove taught the Republicans to attack their opponents on their strengths. So, Rove sent the Swift Boat Veterans to smear John Kerry's distinguished war record. But that's so 2004.

With Rove in semi-retirement, the Republican party is led by Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sarah Palin with assists from wingmen Dick Armey and Orly Taitz. This crew favors a different approach, one less surgical and more psychiatric. Less Sun Tzu and more Mad Max.

Their M.O.? Freak out randomly: The president telling kids to stay in school?!!! Counseling seniors about living wills!?! Czars?!! That these spasms make no sense is a feature, not a bug. The key is that there be absolutely no way to predict what will set off the GOP. At this rate, the Democrats will be reduced to a whimpering puddle on the lab floor in no time.

503 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:29:37pm

re: #496 Jimmah

What kind of press coverage would they approve of? The mind recoils...

The New York Times is reporting that Bill O'Reilly's was the only event that was closed to the media:

Mr. O’Reilly was the only speaker of the day whose speech was closed to the news media.

504 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:30:22pm

Random musical interlude - and a damn clever video - Chemical Brothers - Star Guitar :

Youtube Video
505 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:32:07pm

re: #495 shiplord kirel

Texas Tech up 3-0 on Texas.
Typical Tech drive though: Move smartly down the field, make a dumb mistake when it really counts in the red zone (false start this time) , miss the touchdown.

It is hard for me to care too deeply about this game after the exhilaration I felt after the Washington Huskies upset 3 TD favorite USC 16-13. Since I am a U-Dub alumnus (circa the Don James era) now living in Los Angeles, it was particularly thrilling. However, if I had to pick a team to root for it would be Texas, only because I really liked Austin when I visited there several years ago.

506 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:32:20pm

re: #502 iceweasel

re: #493 Gus 802

Semi-OT, but not really. Just found this great short post by Lindsey Beyerstein (aka Majikthise) over at ObWi. It really captures what the ruling ethos of the GOP seems to be at the moment:

Czars and learned helplessness

An argument to bring back Karl Rove.

Like many have said before they are rudderless. Other than the usual media crazies speaking for the party their is the useless Michael Steels and a bunch of GOP congressmen that are siding with the "media leaders" and for the most part sound like they have two cup of pork rinds in their mouth.

507 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:32:29pm

I try to not bere: #499 SixDegrees

She might also want to address kyle bristow using a picture of himself with her on his website. I wonder if she's comfortable with that.

508 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:32:29pm

re: #498 tradewind

I hadn't watched to Stewart clip before pretty funny.

509 borgcube  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:34:27pm

re: #477 Danny

Just listened to the speech from 2006. Doesn't really clarify the issue to me one way or another about his intentions today.

I suppose you could say that he has used this story more than once, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's told it multiple times, in which case I'd give him a break on being labeled a racist turd. However, even if that's the case, he's still a ignorant jerkoff for using it right now especially given the recent brouhaha about race and Obama.

Either way, he's an idiot. Par for the Congressional golf course members, *ahem* monkeys all.

510 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:34:56pm

re: #508 Killgore Trout

I hadn't watched to Stewart clip before pretty funny.

He did another spoof on ACORN during the week. It was regarding the voter fraud in Afghanistan. He led up to it by saying something to the effect of "and who's in charge of voting in Afghanistan?" Then they put up the ACORN logo with some kind of lettering. Sort of like ACORN/Afghanistan.

511 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:36:25pm

re: #502 iceweasel

re: #493 Gus 802

Semi-OT, but not really. Just found this great short post by Lindsey Beyerstein (aka Majikthise) over at ObWi. It really captures what the ruling ethos of the GOP seems to be at the moment:

Czars and learned helplessness

Very astute article! But the freaky insanity of the right is what will stick in the minds of any decent moderate people out there.

512 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:36:32pm

re: #493 Gus 802

Isn't it? And these are some of the same crew that complains when there isn't enough press coverage. The irony is that it was done here to a Fox News reporter.

They're feeling singed over the Blunt video, and they don't want a repeat. Look for them to take the same tack that many leftward events like Davos took and severely restrict access by the press in the future.

513 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:36:41pm

sitting in the warm New Mexico sun taking it easy...I can follow how the left is driving the economy into the tank and advancing a brutal federal agenda down our throats...meanwhile extremists are exploding onto the national scene, further tearing the country apart and claiming NM is only 6000 years old...the schools are shot, labor unions dominate, we are running out of energy and people dwiddle around with personal political vendettas...the rich get richer and people everywhere are white hot pissed off

yet my kids are secure for now, I have plenty of money to live within my means...the best health care in the southwest and the feds are slowly paying me back some of the money I gave them throughout my life...I can come and go as I please and Glenn Beck has no influence in my life...I treat everyone the same expect nothing from anybody...my opinions are as simple as my lifestyle...I love America as much as anybody and it's a shame to witness this needless shakeup...but I played my cards as best I could, have few regrets and am living a good life...I don't really care about much these days but my own skin...the kooks and libs, and freaks and liars and cheats missed me altogether...I just laugh at all the mischief...life is good

514 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:37:23pm

... ooohhh ... aftershock...

515 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:37:40pm

re: #500 Peg K


That's what they don't want to discuss - ergo the smoke and mirrors about issues that are not pertinent and distracting.

Megan McArdle is a glibertarian idiot, and don't get me started about the Whole Foods schmoe.

The smoke and mirrors are coming from people like Palin, the Heritage Foundation, FreedomWorks, and the GOP, who are happy to make up shit about euthanasia, death panels, etc.

516 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:37:43pm

re: #513 albusteve

...life is good


Indeed.

517 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:37:47pm

re: #509 borgcube

Just listened to the speech from 2006. Doesn't really clarify the issue to me one way or another about his intentions today.

I suppose you could say that he has used this story more than once, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's told it multiple times, in which case I'd give him a break on being labeled a racist turd.

Well, clearly he has used it before, three years ago. I agree it doesn't mean he's not racist. On the other hand, it doesn't mean he is, either.

518 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:38:08pm

re: #499 SixDegrees

I'm willing to believe, for the moment, that the huge page of links to her article, her publicity photo and all the quotes from her found at the VDARE site are there without her knowledge.

That page has been at the VDARE site for years. And she definitely knows about it.

Take a look at these Google search results:

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

519 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:38:12pm

re: #493 Gus 802

Isn't it? And these are some of the same crew that complains when there isn't enough press coverage. The irony is that it was done here to a Fox News reporter.

Maybe they wanted the reporter to show respect for the speaker...because so many of these same individuals had a problem when Joe Wilson yelled at the President...

Yeah, sure...

520 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:38:49pm

re: #513 albusteve

Great post!

521 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:39:09pm

That's the post where she links to Steve Sailer and calls Brimelow her friend.

There's a lot more:

[Link: www.google.com...]

522 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:40:29pm

re: #487 iceweasel

Obama got a bounce after his health care speech, and while Congress approval ratings are low (deservedly) -- it's the GOPers that are truly at the bottom.

There is strong support for health reform-- even McCain ran on it -- and the polls often reflect the success of wingnut lies and misinformation, more than a true measure of support for the actual proposals. Everytime a wingnut smear is debunked, the support goes up.
That's why they relentlessly pump out new ones.

Obamacare has now given up all of that small bounce and more:

[Link: www.slate.com...]

523 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:42:24pm

re: #522 Salamantis

Obamacare has now given up all of that small bounce and more:

[Link: www.slate.com...]

If they give up the public option, there will be a total shitstorm headed Obama's way and the Dems' way from the progressive left. Massive.

524 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:43:22pm

re: #521 Charles

That's the post where she links to Steve Sailer and calls Brimelow her friend.

There's a lot more:

[Link: www.google.com...]

Uggghhh...the stoopid burns!

525 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:44:52pm

re: #523 iceweasel

If they give up the public option, there will be a total shitstorm headed Obama's way and the Dems' way from the progressive left. Massive.

If there was a way to give every single American the same coverage that he government gives me without bankrupting the country, I would suppor that reform 100%. I don't think it's possible though.

526 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:45:30pm

re: #513 albusteve


...life is good

That's what I say, steve. Glad to see you are on the mend :)

The Indelicates: Julia we don't live in the sixties -

Youtube Video
527 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:45:56pm

Back later.

528 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:49:59pm

re: #518 Charles

That page has been at the VDARE site for years. And she definitely knows about it.

Take a look at these Google search results:

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Thank you.

My approach is always to extend the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she's changed her mind, especially in light of recent developments and VDARE's phosphorescent idiocy glowing brighter every day.

Quite honestly, I doubt such optimism will survive, and she'll simply ignore any such post. I'm not at all certain she reads her comment section, anyway - I've never seen a hint of moderation over there.

In any case, the exposure and demand need to happen, just so I'm certain this gets dragged out into the sunlight where it belongs.

529 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:50:02pm

Glenn Beck's Apology to Libertarians

Youtube Video

Glenn apologizes for saying he's a Libertarian in the past, but spells out how he's leaning even more toward their way.

He's going to start preaching isolationism, praise for Ron Paul, derides American imperialism.
His influence among conservatives and the Tea Parties means there's a strong chance these ideas are going to catch on.
Yes, this is really happening.

530 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:50:41pm

re: #526 Jimmah

That's what I say, steve. Glad to see you are on the mend :)

The Indelicates: Julia we don't live in the sixties -


sweet!...kind of a '60s twang...I never doubted you had it in you after scaring the shit out of me with some of your other music posts

531 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:51:47pm

re: #523 iceweasel

If they give up the public option, there will be a total shitstorm headed Obama's way and the Dems' way from the progressive left. Massive.

If I could reset Healthcare...
Everybody pays a hundred bucks a month..just like the Netherlands..If you are unemployed..Who cares..You are still paying heathcare..It's a dream I know..But the Dutch live longer than any other group in the world..80+ years... I know it isn't practical to reset heathcare...But if everybody had to pay a 100 bucks a month including illegals...It might work...

532 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:51:52pm

re: #490 Jimmah

I have to confess to being one of those! (But only rarely, and with a heavy heart) :)

No problem. My views are comprised of my own individual eclectic mix, as are everyone's views here. Those who agree with my pro-evolutionary science stance or my domestic social liberalism often disagree with my hawkish foreign policy advocacy, and those who agree with my hawkish foreign policy advocacy often disagree with my domestic social liberalism or my pro-evolutionary-science stance.

And by demanding that people stick to the current climatological consensus on AGW, I have gotten downdings from move-on-there's-nothing-to-see-here-but-a-socialist-control-conspiracy 'deniers' (a word I dislike because of its Holocaust baggage) and sensationalistic exaggerationalist alarmists alike.

533 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:53:47pm

re: #523 iceweasel

If they give up the public option, there will be a total shitstorm headed Obama's way and the Dems' way from the progressive left. Massive.

You know what today is don't you ice?
:)

534 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:53:52pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

The term I am using now is "Americanists". That term has some history, but I believe it is quite appropriate here when speaking of Beck, et. al.

"Revanchism", the term that Tanenhaus uses, is ok but it can be instantiated in many different ways, not just in the beliefs of the "Americanists".

535 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:54:09pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

If I could reset Healthcare...
Everybody pays a hundred bucks a month..just like the Netherlands..If you are unemployed..Who cares..You are still paying heathcare..It's a dream I know..But the Dutch live longer than any other group in the world..80+ years... I know it isn't practical to reset heathcare...But if everybody had to pay a 100 bucks a month including illegals...It might work...

I'm with you on this one.

536 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:54:47pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

$100/mo wouldn't be enough, even if you charged families that on a per child basis.

537 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:55:25pm

re: #531 HoosierHoops

If I could reset Healthcare...
Everybody pays a hundred bucks a month..just like the Netherlands..If you are unemployed..Who cares..You are still paying heathcare..It's a dream I know..But the Dutch live longer than any other group in the world..80+ years... I know it isn't practical to reset heathcare...But if everybody had to pay a 100 bucks a month including illegals...It might work...

required, you must smoke at least one bowl of hash each and everyday

538 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:56:22pm

re: #521 Charles

That's the post where she links to Steve Sailer and calls Brimelow her friend.

There's a lot more:

[Link: www.google.com...]

Isn't her husband Jesse Malkin? How does she reconcile being friends with someone like Brimelow while writing for the Jewish World Review and being married to Jesse Malkin?

539 Van Helsing  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:56:27pm

Serious question - anyone know of any studies done to determine what is driving the cost of health care services up?

540 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:57:34pm

re: #538 MJ

Isn't her husband Jesse Malkin? How does she reconcile being friends with someone like Brimelow while writing for the Jewish World Review and being married to Jesse Malkin?

You'd have to ask her that.

541 freetoken  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:57:38pm

re: #539 Van Helsing

One could always use PubMed and search the journals for studies. I bet there are many.

542 Van Helsing  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:57:59pm

re: #541 freetoken

Thank you.

543 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:58:18pm

re: #533 HoosierHoops

You know what today is don't you ice?
:)

Talk like a pirate day? :)

544 jaunte  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:58:42pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

Listening to a morning deejay pontificate about foreign policy and how the military should be used or not used is just surreal.

545 jaunte  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:59:30pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

I mean the odd part is how many people take him seriously.

546 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:00:29pm

re: #545 jaunte

Jesse Venture was a morning radio talking head before he went into politics...

547 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:00:33pm

re: #536 freetoken

$100/mo wouldn't be enough, even if you charged families that on a per child basis.

Sorry..He said 120 euro a month now that I recall...That means even if you are on the government Dole painting pictures down at the Canal..You are paying healthcare! Period amen...You have a baby..You are paying healthcare for da baby..Period Amen.. In a small country it works great.. In America? Well fuck up heathcare royally for generations. It's what we do

548 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:00:40pm

Ventura- PIMF

549 KingKenrod  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:01:11pm

re: #504 Jimmah

Random musical interlude - and a damn clever video - Chemical Brothers - Star Guitar :


[Video]

The link says embedding disabled for this video. But great choice, I love this song & video. Very hypnotic.

550 jaunte  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:01:46pm

re: #546 Sharmuta

Jesse Venture was a morning radio talking head before he went into politics...

Being in control of the mike must instill great unwarranted confidence.

551 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:02:26pm

re: #529 Killgore Trout

I guess it is official... I can no longer say that I am a Republican with strong libertarian leanings... Ron Paul + Glenn Beck have ruined both the Republican and Libertarian labels for me.

552 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:02:55pm

re: #539 Van Helsing

Irregardless of any study, practically everything that's inflated beyond the reach of the regular guy or gal there's an investment banker that performed the financial wizardry that got us here. :p

553 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:04:33pm

re: #546 Sharmuta

Jesse Venture was a morning radio talking head before he went into politics...

another pop icon pseudo politician...Al Franken, Arnold the Terminator etc...expect more from this hotbed breeding ground of leaders

554 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:04:39pm

re: #534 freetoken

The term I am using now is "Americanists". That term has some history, but I believe it is quite appropriate here when speaking of Beck, et. al.

"Revanchism", the term that Tanenhaus uses, is ok but it can be instantiated in many different ways, not just in the beliefs of the "Americanists".

Interesting. The problem I see is that they just aren't trying to revert to a past version of America. They're trying to create an America that has never existed before. Very spooky.

555 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:05:31pm

re: #530 albusteve

sweet!...kind of a '60s twang...I never doubted you had it in you after scaring the shit out of me with some of your other music posts

No doubt I will again :D Here's some more Indelicates here for you - "America". btw - if you were interested to know about the groups political leanings, check out the writings of Nick Cohen.

Youtube Video
556 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:05:32pm

re: #553 albusteve

another pop icon pseudo politician...Al Franken, Arnold the Terminator etc...expect more from this hotbed breeding ground of leaders

At least Jesse didn't have time to bleed.

557 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:05:34pm

re: #543 iceweasel

Talk like a pirate day? :)

We had a lizard here last year that took talk like a pirate day to heart..We begged him to stop..It was funny...Nope...never stopped posting like a pirate.
Hold on Ice...I'll spill the beans on today...in a minute..
Can I get you anything from the bar?

558 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:05:56pm

re: #539 Van Helsing

Serious question - anyone know of any studies done to determine what is driving the cost of health care services up?

Good question. Above my pay scale but there's been much written on the topic.

559 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:06:09pm

In 2004, Malkin showed exactly how she felt about racism and the best way to "use" it to the government's benefit. It's no surprise she's chummy with places like VDARE.

And btw, she gets a whopping 2.5 rating on that book.

560 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:06:20pm

re: #539 Van Helsing

Serious question - anyone know of any studies done to determine what is driving the cost of health care services up?

No studies, but one school of thought maintains that a significant part of the problem is the extreme market distortions caused by insurance coverage. Patients don't see anything like the real cost of the services they receive; service providers rarely get complaints about costs from their insured patients; insurance companies don't really care, because they can keep raising rates to cover rising service costs that are basically uncontrolled by any sort of market mechanism. Patients don't even see the real cost of their insurance, in most cases - only the small fraction not paid for by their employer, if they opt for higher-grade plans through a cafe-style program.

Expose patients more directly to costs, and costs will come down rapidly. Or so the thinking goes. I believe there's some merit to this, although like most problems it's complex and not really addressable through any single mechanism.

561 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:06:54pm

re: #513 albusteve

{{{albusteve}}}
So glad you're doing OK!

562 Van Helsing  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:08:32pm

re: #552 trendsurfer

Yes, I've never been a fan of 'spreadsheet' investments. Perhaps because I just don't have the smarts to understand them.

The PubMed site seems to deal more with medical studies, the one economic study i found was a pay to see.

I'm not that curious.

I found this - Government source that looks worth spending some time with.

563 albusteve  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:08:41pm

re: #561 Floral Giraffe

{{{albusteve}}}
So glad you're doing OK!

thank you

564 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:09:20pm

re: #547 HoosierHoops

Sorry..He said 120 euro a month now that I recall...That means even if you are on the government Dole painting pictures down at the Canal..You are paying healthcare! Period amen...You have a baby..You are paying healthcare for da baby..Period Amen.. In a small country it works great.. In America? Well fuck up heathcare royally for generations. It's what we do

Another thought:

Currently, somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the population has health coverage, depending on whose figures you use. Increase everyone's premiums by 10% - whether paid for by employees or employers - and viola! Problem solved, without spending the trillions of dollars currently being projected.

Rising costs are still a concern. But no proposal currently on the table offers any realistic plan to address this problem anyway, so that's still an open issue.

565 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:10:10pm

re: #539 Van Helsing

Serious question - anyone know of any studies done to determine what is driving the cost of health care services up?

I haven't done any studies... but as an uninsured person recently billed when my wife got sick with a headache and elevated blood pressure. I'd say it's fear of a malpractice suit and greed all around.

$7.00 for two aspirins and $300 for a pregnancy test when she had her tubes tied for 5 years earlier? 4 hours in the emergency room cost me (with all the other bills that came later) around $5000.

566 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:10:44pm

re: #538 MJ

Isn't her husband Jesse Malkin? How does she reconcile being friends with someone like Brimelow while writing for the Jewish World Review and being married to Jesse Malkin?

Somebody addresses that here.

567 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:11:03pm

re: #543 iceweasel

Arrrgh, Matey!
;)

568 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:11:42pm

re: #557 HoosierHoops

We had a lizard here last year that took talk like a pirate day to heart..We begged him to stop..It was funny...Nope...never stopped posting like a pirate.
Hold on Ice...I'll spill the beans on today...in a minute..
Can I get you anything from the bar?

I'll have what you're having, honey. :)

569 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:12:14pm

Off topic- both Robert KaganYour text to link... and E.J. Dionne have good columns at WaPo online on Irving Kristol. And despite the Post policy that "user reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site," the comments to both articles are vile and anti Semitic. Some truthers there, too.

570 Linden Arden  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:13:52pm

Test post - I was trying to upding a post and could not. (Salamantis).


I thought perhaps that I had gotten "flounced"... (what a great word)

Post baby! And go UGA!

571 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:13:57pm

Been thinking this all day...going to say it...

If Congressman Blount wants to solve the GOP's monkey problem, he can resign.*

*Just to be sure I am not misunderstood, I am saying that the "less evolved" creature here is him.

572 Van Helsing  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:14:14pm

re: #565 Mr Pancakes

4 hours in the emergency room cost me (with all the other bills that came later) around $5000.

One of the things that has piqued my curiosity is a $5000 ER bill, my insurance paid $900 (more or less) and the hospital is fine with that...

I paid my $100 ER co-pay and we're square...

I found that... interesting.

573 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:15:13pm

re: #569 Jim in Virginia

Off topic- both Robert KaganYour text to link... and E.J. Dionne have good columns at WaPo online on Irving Kristol. And despite the Post policy that "user reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site," the comments to both articles are vile and anti Semitic. Some truthers there, too.

Yikes! That was ugly.

I like EJ. He does the Sunday morning talk show circuit sometimes.

574 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:17:54pm

re: #560 SixDegrees

There's something deeply wrong with our medical system. How is it that for a ruptured appendix, the insurance company paid $12,000 for the hospital only, yet as an individual my cost was billed at $48,000?
I don' thave the answer, but it's pretty broken, now.

575 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:18:06pm

re: #572 Van Helsing

One of the things that has piqued my curiosity is a $5000 ER bill, my insurance paid $900 (more or less) and the hospital is fine with that...

I paid my $100 ER co-pay and we're square...

I found that... interesting.

Yes... that's amazing. Those of us without insurance must be getting screwed.

Sharp Hospital in my area posts pricing on the internet and my bill matched. It costs $1000 just to enter ER after the paperwork is filled out.

576 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:21:15pm

re: #568 iceweasel

I'll have what you're having, honey. :)

I gotta tell ya Ice..Today really sucked..As a new pool owner today was a wonderful day to close the pool..In fact..I am sun burned..Glorious day in Indiana to shut down the pool and fire up the Hot tub...
Do you know why today sucked? The water in the pool was frigging ice cold..
I had to clean leaves off the bottom of the pool...Ice
In the words of Seinfield...We are talking major shrinkage...I swept the pool screaming F*ck you Megan fox! Next year..The pool is only open for one month or if I can afford a pool girl...My dream was to always have a pool..I had no idea it would be hell on earth...
*wink*

577 Linden Arden  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:22:18pm

re: #574 Floral Giraffe

Insurers do not allow themselves to be gouged.

A hapless individual at the mercy of a ruptured appendix has no choice.

578 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:23:26pm

re: #576 HoosierHoops

You wouldn't be having that cold in Ca.!
Just sayin'
;)

579 bricko  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:28:09pm

Well, apparently Im waiting for the punch line. Listened to it twice and he is talking about crap in Washington.

1. It wasnt funny
2. What is the issue.
3. It it only apparent to certain readers with the magic decoder ring?
4. Maybe I need more cowbell?

580 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:28:47pm

re: #572 Van Helsing

One of the things that has piqued my curiosity is a $5000 ER bill, my insurance paid $900 (more or less) and the hospital is fine with that...

I paid my $100 ER co-pay and we're square...

I found that... interesting.

Your insurance company has an agreement with that hospital that includes what the charge will be that the insurance will pay for particular services.

It used to be - many insurance companies, and the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid - at one time would reimburse a provider a certain percentage of the UCR (Usual, Customary and Reasonable Fee), with the UCR established based on the average of the PREVIOUS YEAR's rates. So, to counter that and get paid at a higher rate, providers set their fees for services higher and higher - in the case of your insurance company, it has made an agreement with the hospital that any of its clients that come to the hospital will be covered by them BUT they will only pay X for this or that service.

So - that is why the "charge" was $5000, but you paid $100 and your insurance company paid $900 and the whole thing was considered squared up.

581 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:30:58pm

re: #574 Floral Giraffe

There's something deeply wrong with our medical system. How is it that for a ruptured appendix, the insurance company paid $12,000 for the hospital only, yet as an individual my cost was billed at $48,000?
I don' thave the answer, but it's pretty broken, now.

That's nuts but not surprising...

Insurance companies pay less why? VOLUME!!!

Got me to thinking what if my daughter broke her arm... $16,000?

Thank god I live 10 minutes from the border... Tijuana is now my insurance plan. It's a cross your fingers solution but it's all I got.

582 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:33:39pm

re: #578 Floral Giraffe

You wouldn't be having that cold in Ca.!
Just sayin'
;)

Isn't it funny? To transfer to Indiana was like..Ok..You get a dream house...In the middle of a corn field...I sold the house on hemlock Street in Napa I bought for 13.500 dollars as a 26 year old for over 440,000 to move to Indiana...It really is a trade off...Winter is frigging Hell here..Barns are cool...Pools suck..Hot tubs rock and life is sweet...

583 Van Helsing  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:36:12pm

re: #580 reine.de.tout

n the case of your insurance company, it has made an agreement with the hospital that any of its clients that come to the hospital will be covered by them BUT they will only pay X for this or that service.

Then would it would be reasonable then to say that insurance may not be reimbursing the hospital sufficiently to cover the actual cost, and the hospital may be making up for that by charging uninsured (or other service users) more to cover that shortfall?

In essence, as 6degrees stated, insurance itself likely has a distorting effect on costs.

584 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:36:49pm

re: #108 Cineaste

Beautiful. I thought of my uncle Pete who flew missions over the Polish rail yards and was shot down over Czechoslovakia and spent two weeks behind enemy lines before reconnecting through partisans to his unit. He never spoke about his service in Europe, only his children and my mother, his sister, did. I know I've known a hero because I knew my uncle Pete.
Thanks for your work too. It's so important that we remember those who went before us. Well done!

585 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:40:05pm

re: #580 reine.de.tout

Your insurance company has an agreement with that hospital that includes what the charge will be that the insurance will pay for particular services.

It used to be - many insurance companies, and the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid - at one time would reimburse a provider a certain percentage of the UCR (Usual, Customary and Reasonable Fee), with the UCR established based on the average of the PREVIOUS YEAR's rates. So, to counter that and get paid at a higher rate, providers set their fees for services higher and higher - in the case of your insurance company, it has made an agreement with the hospital that any of its clients that come to the hospital will be covered by them BUT they will only pay X for this or that service.

So - that is why the "charge" was $5000, but you paid $100 and your insurance company paid $900 and the whole thing was considered squared up.

And it reams the uninsured, because the hospitals hve to recoup their losses from undercharging the insurance companies, and they can only try to do so by massively overcharging those who lack insurance.

Which leads to many uninsured people not being able to pay their inflated hospital bills and defaulting, ruining their credit ratings in the process.

The Sword of Damocles threat of such financial and/or credit rating reamings that hangs over the heads of all uninsured people who might happen to have a major medical problem befall them is why insurance companies can grossly inflate the amount they charge for their health insurance coverage, even while they pay far less than indivuduals for health care services, thus reaping more profits and incurring less costs. And why the CEOs of such companies make multi-million-dollar salaries.

586 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:45:10pm

re: #585 Salamantis

And it reams the uninsured, because the hospitals hve to recoup their losses from undercharging the insurance companies

I would like to add to that to make up for those who don't have insurance and don't pay.

When I called absolutely livid about the bill they said "sir you don't have to pay we don't deny service to anyone."

I was floored when she said that.

587 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:58:14pm

re: #583 Van Helsing

Then would it would be reasonable then to say that insurance may not be reimbursing the hospital sufficiently to cover the actual cost, and the hospital may be making up for that by charging uninsured (or other service users) more to cover that shortfall?

In essence, as 6degrees stated, insurance itself likely has a distorting effect on costs.

6degrees was correct that insurance itself, including government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, have a distorting effect on costs, and I updinged his comment.

I think it would be very rare that the hospital EVER got $5000 for similar service to what you received. $1000 probably covers the cost of the service, plus a bit. OR, the agreement your insurance company has with that hospital pays more for other services. It is highly unlikely that the uninsured are making up the difference. If they are uninsured because they have no means to pay insurance premiums, then they have no means to pay the bill, either. If they are uninsured because they choose to be uninsured, they may have to pay the full bill, but I also happen to know that some hospitals have different (lower) rates for people without insurance.

588 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:03:17pm

re: #585 Salamantis

And it reams the uninsured, because the hospitals hve to recoup their losses from undercharging the insurance companies, and they can only try to do so by massively overcharging those who lack insurance.

Which leads to many uninsured people not being able to pay their inflated hospital bills and defaulting, ruining their credit ratings in the process.

The Sword of Damocles threat of such financial and/or credit rating reamings that hangs over the heads of all uninsured people who might happen to have a major medical problem befall them is why insurance companies can grossly inflate the amount they charge for their health insurance coverage, even while they pay far less than indivuduals for health care services, thus reaping more profits and incurring less costs. And why the CEOs of such companies make multi-million-dollar salaries.

Sala - no, read my 587.
A person who is uninsured because they do not have the means to pay insurance premiums, does not have the means to pay the hospital bill, either. And probably have rotten credit already.

A person who is uninsured for reasons other than inability to pay, may very well receive a lower charge to begin with. An example: my daughter's pregnancy was not covered by our insurance, which only covers pregnancy for the spouse. The hospital charge for us was very reasonable for the 2-day stay she had there - about $2000. Which is a lot of money, but it was doable.

A provider's stated rates for services are often established so that their UCR (usual, customary and reasonable fee) for NEXT YEAR will be high enough that the percentage UCR reimbursement they get from insurance companies and/or government programs will keep them afloat.

589 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:04:17pm

re: #587 reine.de.tout

I think it would be very rare that the hospital EVER got $5000 for similar service to what you received. $1000 probably covers the cost of the service, plus a bit. OR, the agreement your insurance company has with that hospital pays more for other services. It is highly unlikely that the uninsured are making up the difference. If they are uninsured because they have no means to pay insurance premiums, then they have no means to pay the bill, either. If they are uninsured because they choose to be uninsured, they may have to pay the full bill, but I also happen to know that some hospitals have different (lower) rates for people without insurance.

I'm self employed with the ability to pay the hospital ... for me to get coverage that was comparable to what I was paying when I was employed would cost me $1500 a month...

They did offer me a discount if I paid in full... wasn't much.

590 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:11:24pm

re: #589 Mr Pancakes

I'm self employed with the ability to pay the hospital ... for me to get coverage that was comparable to what I was paying when I was employed would cost me $1500 a month...

They did offer me a discount if I paid in full... wasn't much.

That's a huge amount.
But you don't have insurance, right?
And per your comment
re: #586 Mr Pancakes

I would like to add to that to make up for those who don't have insurance and don't pay.

When I called absolutely livid about the bill they said "sir you don't have to pay we don't deny service to anyone."

I was floored when she said that.

You didn't have to pay the bill, right?
So you came out ahead?

591 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:13:19pm

re: #572 Van Helsing

One of the things that has piqued my curiosity is a $5000 ER bill, my insurance paid $900 (more or less) and the hospital is fine with that...

I paid my $100 ER co-pay and we're square...

I found that... interesting.

Welcome to the world of health care reality. Don't get sick if you don't work for a large corporation, or government; otherwise drink lots of tea.

592 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:15:11pm

re: #590 reine.de.tout

You didn't have to pay the bill, right?
So you came out ahead?

No, they would treat you without payment up front, but the bill would be issued and sent to some collection agency.

593 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:15:52pm

re: #590 reine.de.tout

You didn't have to pay the bill, right?
So you came out ahead?

I paid the bill.

I have good credit and I'm responsible.

I was floored because they suggested that I didn't have to pay... I always pay my bills.

594 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:17:14pm

re: #592 Naso Tang

No, they would treat you without payment up front, but the bill would be issued and sent to some collection agency.

No, read his comment:
re: #586 Mr Pancakes

I would like to add to that to make up for those who don't have insurance and don't pay.

When I called absolutely livid about the bill they said "sir you don't have to pay we don't deny service to anyone."

I was floored when she said that.


If she said he doesn't have to pay, then my guess is it won't be going to a collection agency to try to collect. He just won't pay.

595 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:20:09pm

re: #565 Mr Pancakes

I haven't done any studies... but as an uninsured person recently billed when my wife got sick with a headache and elevated blood pressure. I'd say it's fear of a malpractice suit and greed all around.

$7.00 for two aspirins and $300 for a pregnancy test when she had her tubes tied for 5 years earlier? 4 hours in the emergency room cost me (with all the other bills that came later) around $5000.

As a physician stories like this make me ill.
Unfortunately, this is so common.
Overtreatment for things you don't need.
Undertreatment for the reason you probably went in.

To make matters worse, the folks are probably short staffed, and honestly, it's just easier to order a duplicate test or study rather than wait on hold for 10 minutes trying to track down old results, which may be from only a few days earlier.
It's also easy to "shotgun" ( order a ton of shit hoping to cover all the bases ) a patient so you cover your ass.

and I'll bet that if you had insurance, they would have charged the insurance company less than they charged you and you have very little bargaining power in the process.

all that money for a headache, and still the hospitals are losing money and having to cut corners because reimbursements are declining, and costs to deliver care, defend frivolous lawsuits, etc are going up up up.

sorry that this happened to you and your wife. you are far far from alone unfortunately

596 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:20:39pm

re: #594 reine.de.tout

If she said he doesn't have to pay, then my guess is it won't be going to a collection agency to try to collect. He just won't pay.

Well that just wasn't even option for me.

If I was a low life that didn't pay my bills I would hardly have a complaint,

597 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:22:00pm

re: #595 Shug

As a physician stories like this make me ill.
Unfortunately, this is so common.
Overtreatment for things you don't need.
Undertreatment for the reason you probably went in.

To make matters worse, the folks are probably short staffed, and honestly, it's just easier to order a duplicate test or study rather than wait on hold for 10 minutes trying to track down old results, which may be from only a few days earlier.
It's also easy to "shotgun" ( order a ton of shit hoping to cover all the bases ) a patient so you cover your ass.

and I'll bet that if you had insurance, they would have charged the insurance company less than they charged you and you have very little bargaining power in the process.

all that money for a headache, and still the hospitals are losing money and having to cut corners because reimbursements are declining, and costs to deliver care, defend frivolous lawsuits, etc are going up up up.

sorry that this happened to you and your wife. you are far far from alone unfortunately

The really great story was when the Roi ended up in the ER for kidney stones, and was given a pregnancy test.

LOLOLOL!
We had a huge laugh.

598 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:23:45pm

re: #595 Shug

As a physician stories like this make me ill.
Unfortunately, this is so common.
Overtreatment for things you don't need.
Undertreatment for the reason you probably went in.

To make matters worse, the folks are probably short staffed, and honestly, it's just easier to order a duplicate test or study rather than wait on hold for 10 minutes trying to track down old results, which may be from only a few days earlier.
It's also easy to "shotgun" ( order a ton of shit hoping to cover all the bases ) a patient so you cover your ass.

and I'll bet that if you had insurance, they would have charged the insurance company less than they charged you and you have very little bargaining power in the process.

all that money for a headache, and still the hospitals are losing money and having to cut corners because reimbursements are declining, and costs to deliver care, defend frivolous lawsuits, etc are going up up up.

sorry that this happened to you and your wife. you are far far from alone unfortunately

Thanks Shug... I'm all for the new health care plan regardless of my political leanings... it's survival now. But even after it happens it's 4 years away... which sucks.

599 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:24:06pm

re: #597 reine.de.tout

The really great story was when the Roi ended up in the ER for kidney stones, and was given a pregnancy test.

LOLOLOL!
We had a huge laugh.

oh brother

600 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:27:43pm

re: #598 Mr Pancakes

Thanks Shug... I'm all for the new health care plan regardless of my political leanings... it's survival now. But even after it happens it's 4 years away... which sucks.

It's so important they have to vote on it yesterday, so it can start in 4 years.

CHANGE!

601 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:28:02pm

re: #594 reine.de.tout

If she said he doesn't have to pay, then my guess is it won't be going to a collection agency to try to collect. He just won't pay.

I don't believe someone who answers the phone just says you don't have to pay and can make that decision. No doubt some hospitals differ, but they will negotiate.

My daughter had a bill for a couple of thousand once that, after the treatment, was issued as no insurance when she had insurance but they didn't tell her that they didn't accept that insurance (don't get sick without knowing which hospitals are OK for your insurance). The deductible was over $2000 anyway, but after arguing they allowed a 50% discount on the bill. It would probably have been greater, discount, had it been a hospital in the plan.

602 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:32:35pm

re: #601 Naso Tang

I don't believe someone who answers the phone just says you don't have to pay and can make that decision.

The reason is that she knows there is a large illegal alien population that uses the ER as a "clinic"... where do you send the bill?

603 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:39:03pm

re: #602 Mr Pancakes

The reason is that she knows there is a large illegal alien population that uses the ER as a "clinic"... where do you send the bill?

That may be true in some areas, but the chances are they will know the likelihood of that when you first open your mouth. Luckily I haven't spent too much time in hospitals, but I am under the impression that unless you come in on a stretcher with blood pouring out, they ask for things like ID, addresses, insurance or credit cards first.

It is also true, is it not, that hospitals are paid by government a certain amount just to provide such services?

604 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:44:42pm

re: #603 Naso Tang

That may be true in some areas, but the chances are they will know the likelihood of that when you first open your mouth. Luckily I haven't spent too much time in hospitals, but I am under the impression that unless you come in on a stretcher with blood pouring out, they ask for things like ID, addresses, insurance or credit cards first.

It is also true, is it not, that hospitals are paid by government a certain amount just to provide such services?

No way... here at the border no denial of services period, they don't have to show anything. I've lived here all my life, and lived and worked in Mexico for 8 years. My wife is from Mexico... it's not just the "fence jumpers" it's the laser visa holders too.

605 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:47:36pm

re: #166 MacDuff

I respectfully disagree. If we perceive every thing as racist, whether that is the intention or not, then nothing will be racist. We run the risk of dilution of the word. Just like "Nazi", once everyone, left and right. use the term "Nazi" with reckless abandon, the it dilutes the real meaning of "Nazi".

When all of the powerful words are diluted to jargon, how will we communicate the nature of evil?

Piffle.

If we can't recognize coded racism for what it is, how will we recognize evil?

606 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:48:26pm

re: #604 Mr Pancakes

No way... here at the border no denial of services period, they don't have to show anything. I've lived here all my life, and lived and worked in Mexico for 8 years. My wife is from Mexico... it's not just the "fence jumpers" it's the laser visa holders too.

Oh well. Not so here in central Florida. Looks like you already have the public option.

607 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:49:32pm

re: #605 Cato the Elder

Piffle.

If we can't recognize coded racism for what it is, how will we recognize evil?

By it's codes?

//

608 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:53:01pm

re: #606 Naso Tang

Oh well. Not so here in central Florida. Looks like you already have the public option.

Hahhaaa... yea public option if you aren't an uninsured US citizen, or it's the Tijuana option.

I swear Naso... kid has the sniffles? Let's go to the ER!

609 harpsicon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:10:17pm

re: #586 Mr Pancakes

I would like to add to that to make up for those who don't have insurance and don't pay.

When I called absolutely livid about the bill they said "sir you don't have to pay we don't deny service to anyone."

I was floored when she said that.

It's true.

610 Etaoin Shrdlu  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:46:37pm

re: #267 Chekote


I am almost tempted to join just to see the MLK Holiday Booklet.

I'm not sure it's the same booklet, but if you google "Council of Conservative Citizens MLK booklet", the seventh hit (on a white supremacist site) is a PDF copy of a four-page pamphlet produced by the Council of Conservative Citizens Central Alabama Chapter. This CCC pamphlet prominently links to a Stormfront sub-site (w​w​w dot ​martinlutherking dot org).

611 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:57:57pm

re: #491 iceweasel

It's almost like devalues voters don't want any light shining on them. Kinda like... oh yeah, Cockroaches! And that's exactly what they are. Maybe, if we're all lucky, they stayed at a roach motel for this thing.

612 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:27:47pm

re: #594 reine.de.tout

If she said he doesn't have to pay, then my guess is it won't be going to a collection agency to try to collect. He just won't pay.

He doesn't have to pay.

They don't have to refrain from submitting the unpaid bill to a collection agency. With most hospitals, this is a common practice.

And when the collection agency contacts him, he still doesn't have to pay. He just has to endure their repeated remittance requests.

And the torpedoing of any credit rating he might formerly have had.

613 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 12:14:58am

re: #612 Salamantis

PLEASE keep fighting the good fight!
You rock, Sal!

614 JEA62  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 5:00:59am

re: #603 Naso Tang

I have no objections to someone comparing Obama to Hitler - that's a political statement, and it's their right to do that. But comparing him to a monkey, or picturing him as a witch doctor, or holding up a 'go back to Kenya' sign crosses the line from political to racial.

615 leftover54  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:41:10am

re: #105 SFGoth

Do you know what 'Minnehaha' means ?

It's 'American Indian" for "a little joke". :-)

/oh sh*t, that might not be funny...

616 yoshicastmaster  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:59:37pm

is there a difference between being racially insensitive and racist?

because clearly appearing to call a black man a monkey is racist. but i'm not sure that he was trying to just suggest obama or just black politicians with his joke, although the joke still strikes me as insensitive since that appears to be an obvious thought.


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