This video shows what happened when a man walked through the Washington DC tea party with a sign that said, “Public Option Now!”
He had a police escort, and obviously needed them. Imagine what would have happened if the police weren’t there.
1 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:14:45pm |
That was a man with balls. I salute him.
| 3 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:17:06pm |
| 4 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:17:51pm |
I love the First Amendment!
On a possibly related note, there is a Muslim prayer service scheduled for this coming Friday I believe. Can't wait to see the reaction to US citizens of the Muslim faith exercising their First Amendment right to peaceably assembe on the grounds of the Capitol.
| 5 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:18:24pm |
Obviously a bolshevik. Off to the gulag with him, with the rest of czars.
/I'm so confused about these memes.
| 7 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:21:01pm |
re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote
That was a man with balls. I salute him.
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
| 9 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:21:45pm |
re: #7 Enkidu90046
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
The right-wing zealots are getting about that dangerous, to be honest. Teh Crazy (tm) is strong out there right now, and there's no telling what could happen.
| 10 |
Mich-again Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:23:06pm |
Well at least they didn't bite his finger off.
| 11 |
Flyers1974 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:23:10pm |
Do any of these freaks screaming "no public option" even know what it means?
| 12 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:23:39pm |
re: #7 Enkidu90046
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
I was just going to say - kinda like waving (not burning) an Israeli flag at a pro-Palestine protest.
| 13 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:23:44pm |
Not sure what the guy at the end trying to hide the 'Public Option Now' sign with his own sign thinks he's doing; everyone knows what the sign says.
| 14 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:24:03pm |
re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote
That was a man with balls. I salute him.
I salute for his courage, but I still oppose his politics. I want him to speak out for his beliefs, but after the talking ends and the voting begins, I still want him to lose.
| 16 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:25:37pm |
re: #7 Enkidu90046
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
So have I...
| 17 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:25:55pm |
re: #9 thedopefishlives
The right-wing zealots are getting about that dangerous, to be honest. Teh Crazy (tm) is strong out there right now, and there's no telling what could happen.
Neither end of the political spectrum has cornered the market on crazy... and frankly, after seeing ultra leftists march arm-in-arm with neo-Nazis in full regalia in various anti-Israel protests... I really wonder whether the political spectrum is line or a circle.
| 18 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:26:29pm |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
I salute for his courage, but I still oppose his politics. I want him to speak out for his beliefs, but after the talking ends and the voting begins, I still want him to lose.
Agreed. Public option means you and I (and just about everyone else) will pay more in taxes.
America is broke!
Lets try this again in a year or two.
| 19 |
JanglerNPL Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:26:34pm |
I think he walked past the "I'll keep God & Guns" couple, or whatever that T shirt says.
| 20 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:26:57pm |
| 21 |
karmic_inquisitor Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:27:25pm |
So here is what I don't get -
We have a bunch of blogs on the right thrashing Charles for posting on the 9/12 lunacy. They say that these are mainstream folks and the photos posted are cherry picked. In that is the implication that extremists aren't representative because they aren't welcome.
So what message was sent to those extremists to communicate to them that they aren't welcome? Any? What energy goes into getting them to tone it down? We can conclude "none" because we can clearly see the energy and clarity with which a message is delivered to someone who they actually don't agree with.
| 22 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:27:39pm |
All the Ads by Google on the lower left are Monkey (something).
WTFs up with that?
| 23 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:28:03pm |
re: #19 JanglerNPL
I think he walked past the "I'll keep God & Guns" couple, or whatever that T shirt says.
Good thing the chubby militia types didn't actually have their guns. Just a matter of time...
| 24 |
karmic_inquisitor Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:29:18pm |
re: #22 Van Helsing
All the Ads by Google on the lower left are Monkey (something).
WTFs up with that?
Google has picked up on the Rush thread...
It just grinds words and throws ads up to try and match them.
| 25 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:30:19pm |
re: #18 Racer X
Agreed. Public option means you and I (and just about everyone else) will pay more in taxes.
America is broke!
Lets try this again in a year or two.
Agreed. Let Obama have something small now and revisit the issue in 2011.
| 26 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:30:30pm |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
I salute for his courage, but I still oppose his politics. I want him to speak out for his beliefs, but after the talking ends and the voting begins, I still want him to lose.
And that is fair. You DF are a great person and I know that you wold get into a reasonable convo about this. Personally, I do not see the public option as the end of America and I am going mostly by what my MD relatives are telling me about it.
I am certain we could and would have a good discussion - because I know that we have. When the actual bill materializes we will both evaluate it and I look forward to talking with you about it. More than once, you have swayed me on a point.
However, as to these tea party guys... I really and quite sincerely doubt that more than one in ten there knows the first thing about medicine or insurance or anything relevant enough to the convo to say anything of substance. I am sure that many would parrot a bunch of jumbled and false propaganda about death panels though.
Those people are there to rage and be intimidating to the black man and his liberal secular legions that they think is stealing their white Christian country.
I hate those people.
| 27 |
flyovercountry Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:30:44pm |
re: #14 Dark_Falcon
I salute for his courage, but I still oppose his politics. I want him to speak out for his beliefs, but after the talking ends and the voting begins, I still want him to lose.
Good point, all crazy aside, I would love to see a real public debate where ideas are openly discussed in a civil manner. But no matter how crazy either side gets, I still believe that passage of the current health care bill, and the cap and trade bill would be disastrous for our nation. I am not comfortable at all with the behavior of large contingent of conservatives, but that will not dissuade me of my current convictions. I just wish for an actual leader to take a stand and bring some sanity to the political right.
| 28 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:31:24pm |
Took a whole posse of cops, too. I count at least seven. Doing that in the middle of a very hostile mob takes some guts, so save some credit for them.
| 29 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:31:26pm |
re: #18 Racer X
Agreed. Public option means you and I (and just about everyone else) will pay more in taxes.
America is broke!
Lets try this again in a year or two.
Let's never try it.
| 30 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:31:28pm |
Isn't that-
Is that Karl Rove?
rabblerouser!
/
| 31 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:31:37pm |
re: #7 Enkidu90046
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
Good man.
I have long wanted to get someone to translate the Tzahal's name into Arabic, and create a shirt. Bright green, with logo. Wear it to one of those events, and see how long it takes...
| 32 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:32:16pm |
re: #22 Van Helsing
All the Ads by Google on the lower left are Monkey (something).
WTFs up with that?
SEKRIT RACSIM!
/also good morning
| 33 |
solomonpanting Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:32:55pm |
| 34 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:33:00pm |
re: #29 TheMatrix31
Let's never try it.
Heh.
Lets try health care reform in a year or so. In the mean time I'm OK with huge tax breaks for those who cannot afford it.
| 35 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:34:18pm |
| 36 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:35:04pm |
re: #22 Van Helsing
All the Ads by Google on the lower left are Monkey (something).
WTFs up with that?
Really? I have a google ad for a masters degree in diplomacy. Heh.
| 37 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:35:11pm |
re: #34 Racer X
Heh.
Lets try health care reform in a year or so. In the mean time I'm OK with huge tax breaks for those who TRULY cannot afford it.
Correction.
| 38 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:35:27pm |
re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist
In fairness, I did it years ago and not during either the war in Gaza or Lebanon... of course, part of the reason I didn't was because my GF forbade me... she said, you WILL get into a fight there...
I said, I know...
So then she used her feminine wiles to explain how she would punish me for such behavior.
| 39 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:35:36pm |
| 40 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:35:45pm |
You want bravery?
Dress up in a Starfleet uniform at a Star Wars convention.
| 41 |
JanglerNPL Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:36:25pm |
re: #33 solomonpanting
If so, you'd be calling the director of the CBO a liar as well (scroll down in the link for the context):
[T]he existence of such a plan would not directly affect the amount of federal subsidies for health insurance under the legislation.
Nevertheless, including a public plan would probably have two small effects on private premiums, both of which would tend to lower federal subsidy payments through the exchanges to some degree
| 42 |
livefreeor die Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:36:32pm |
re: #40 laZardo
You want bravery?
Dress up in a Starfleet uniform at a Star Wars convention.
What would happen if you combined them? Or would the center not hold?
| 43 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:36:44pm |
re: #40 laZardo
You want bravery?
Dress up in a Starfleet uniform at a Star Wars convention.
There is brave and then there is just having a death wish...
| 44 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:37:35pm |
I'm not sure, but did that last policeman make him stop parading around because he was an "agitator"?
| 45 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:37:59pm |
re: #33 solomonpanting
"What it's saying is, is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore," said Obama. "Right now everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase."
That's a flat-out lie.
Auto insurance rates are going to be exorbitantly high until I turn 25 just because of those few teens that think they're Vin Fucking Diesel in their pseudo-ricemobiles.
/and I say pseudo because it's not just the Japanese/Korean models they use...
| 46 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:38:24pm |
re: #22 Van Helsing
All the Ads by Google on the lower left are Monkey (something).
WTFs up with that?
I salute our new Google-Monkey hybrid overlords...
| 47 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:38:35pm |
re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #20 Enkidu90046
I walked into the middle of one of those things on a University campus. It was here that I developed my, speak to the spectators and do not try to sway the crazies philosophy. I found the largest and most angery looking of the students on that side and began to talk in my lecture projection voice - it sounds very calm and reasoned, but it carries.
I purposefully baited him by talking facts about Palestinian responsibility for their own actions. I pointed out that if a people democratically elects a terrorist government that ran on a platform of waging war, then they voted for war and are responsible for the consequences of waging that war.
He became enraged.
I pointed out the history of the land.
He became further enraged.
Now these are historical truths and sound arguments, but they do not connect to a crowd the way making it personal to them through a joke would.
I brought up suicide bombers.
He went on quite the diatribe about how the heroic resistance had a right to fight against evil Jews like me.
He was screaming.
The crowd was hushed - all watching this.
I calmly said Hey man... Don't blow up.
It took a moment to go through the crowd. Then they were laughing at him.
That is when I won. and left and had lunch... 45 minutes later, the frat boys were still giggling "don't blow up" when one of them would start ranting.
| 48 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:40:02pm |
I saw this one earlier. He seemed to me to be a planted agitator sent in by the organizers to get the crowd fired up.
| 49 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:40:05pm |
re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #20 Enkidu90046
I calmly said Hey man... Don't blow up.
It took a moment to go through the crowd. Then they were laughing at him.
That is when I won. and left and had lunch... 45 minutes later, the frat boys were still giggling "don't blow up" when one of them would start ranting.
Congratulations, you've created a brand-new rimshot.
| 50 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:41:09pm |
re: #43 Enkidu90046
There is brave and then there is just having a death wish...
No, that would be challenging one of the [Star Wars fan convention] attendees to a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.
| 51 |
MandyManners Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:41:19pm |
re: #28 Shiplord Kirel
Took a whole posse of cops, too. I count at least seven. Doing that in the middle of a very hostile mob takes some guts, so save some credit for them.
Bless their hearts. Free speech is really messy sometimes.
| 52 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:41:20pm |
re: #44 Capitalist Tool
I'm not sure, but did that last policeman make him stop parading around because he was an "agitator"?
Quite possibly, yes. At rallies I've attended, the organizers are within their rights to ask non-participants to leave and have security escort them away. Because the organizers paid the fee(s) to allow their participants the right to hold their event there- they can exclude "infiltrators".
| 53 |
Spare O'Lake Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:42:24pm |
Flouncin' On A Dead Thread
(with apologies to John Denver)
All my bags are packed
I'm ready to flounce
Lurking here, I'm ready to pounce
I hate to wake him up to say goodbye
But the thread is dying
Its late at night
The stalkers are waiting
Their shorts are all tight
Already I'm so angry
I could fry
So kill me and smile a bit
Tell me you don't give a shit
Fold me up and toss me like a putz
'Cause I'm flouncing on a late thread
Dont know if I'm alive or dead
Oh daddy, I really hate your guts...
///
| 54 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:42:26pm |
re: #38 Enkidu90046
In fairness, I did it years ago and not during either the war in Gaza or Lebanon... of course, part of the reason I didn't was because my GF forbade me... she said, you WILL get into a fight there...
I said, I know...
So then she used her feminine wiles to explain how she would punish me for such behavior.
And after that you were doomed, naturally.
So, did you get in a fight?
| 55 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:42:34pm |
re: #52 Sharmuta
There's also a safety issue too. If thing get out of hand they'd get him out of there.
| 56 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:42:40pm |
re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote
I dont like intentionally provoking that stuff. Just let them drown in their own stupidity.
| 57 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:43:13pm |
re: #25 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. Let Obama have something small now and revisit the issue in 2011.
There are certainly areas in the whole healthcare service/healthcare insurance industries that could use some serious improvement.
None of the proposed legislation I've read seems to do that.
If there is as much waste and fraud in the current (Medicare/Medicaid) programs as stated, enough to fund these sweeping reforms, why not take a couple of years and fix that? Apply the lessons learned to any new programs.
Do a some more studies on the cost of healthcare service delivery. Find out what the real costs are without the distorting influences of insurance and government payment schedules. Use those real costs as a starting point for reform proposals.
| 58 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:44:53pm |
re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote
Wow... that is damned good. Despite being an attorney who is quite adept at outmaneuvering people in arguments... well, there are certain subject matters that my rage gets the better of me (particularly when confronted by the people like you describe). I would not have handled it so well and might well have ended up taking a drive in the back of a squad car.
| 59 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:45:23pm |
re: #48 Killgore Trout
I saw this one earlier. He seemed to me to be a planted agitator sent in by the organizers to get the crowd fired up.
Nope, he looks like a genuine counter-protester.
Edward Kimmel was almost hidden behind a large "Public Option Now!" sign. When he carried the sign through Saturday's Tea Party protest at the Capitol, he described the reactions he got as "screaming, spitting and people so mad they couldn't see straight." The reaction from the crowd on Thursday -- protesters were largely absent -- was the opposite, with many people stopping to tell Kimmel they agreed with him or to snap photos next to his sign.
Asked if he would support a bill that didn't include a public option, Kimmel called such a provision essential "from both a moral and a budgetary standpoint." But, he added, if the president were to back a bill that did not include a public option, he would support it. "The president wants the same things as us," said Kimmel. "If, with all he knows, he says this is the best we can do, then -- well, first I may cry a little -- but I'll still support him."
| 60 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:46:42pm |
re: #55 Killgore Trout
There's also a safety issue too. If thing get out of hand they'd get him out of there.
But... they were unarmed this time.
| 61 |
karmic_inquisitor Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:47:09pm |
If you take the proponents as earnest, the public option is an attempt to disrupt an oligopoly.
Anyone familiar with the California energy "deregulation" experiment will remember that it too was an attempt to break up monopolies in a way that would prevent an oligopoly from forming. It failed. And it wasn't "deregulation" - it was re-regulation. It created a "market" for power that had arcane rules designed to prevent cheating and analysts at places like Enron figured out how to game the system to cheat it. And smaller market entrants weren't able to compete. Soon you had an oligopoly.
I am unconvinced that a public option would do much other than create a subsidized player that can't say no to treatments (so there will be no real cost control) and the other competitors will figure out how to dump patients on the public option making for safer risk pools.
| 62 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:47:37pm |
re: #36 Sharmuta
Really? I have a google ad for a masters degree in diplomacy. Heh.
You get a masters degree ad and I get Monkey Games, Monkey Bread, Monkey Bars, Monkey Shoes and Monkey Research.
I didn't think they could target them to the individual!
Google is like, scary good...
/
| 63 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:47:57pm |
re: #59 Charles
Yup, seems like the real deal. Pretty brave guy.
| 64 |
Spare O'Lake Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:48:51pm |
re: #52 Sharmuta
Quite possibly, yes. At rallies I've attended, the organizers are within their rights to ask non-participants to leave and have security escort them away. Because the organizers paid the fee(s) to allow their participants the right to hold their event there- they can exclude "infiltrators".
I think it's a judgment call by the cops.
Obviously the cops were not certain that violence would erupt, or they would never have allowed him to march.
| 65 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:48:54pm |
(Psst. I used the 'M' word deliberately to see how long it would take for someone to start screaming about the Roy Blunt incident... Yes, I am that evil.)
| 66 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:49:49pm |
re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist
My reference to getting into a fight was why I didn't attend an anti-Israel protest recently (as in the past few years).
Back when I did, no, I didn't get into a fight, but the protesters were also not quite as insane as I have seen of late either.
| 67 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:50:06pm |
re: #65 Charles
RS McCain will jump on it the morning.
| 68 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:51:22pm |
Keep in mind that this display of rage was over a provision of the health care bill, and an unlikely one at that. Imagine if the sign had said "Gay marriage now!" or "Keep abortion safe and legal!" or "No religion in public schools!"
| 69 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:51:42pm |
By the way, Rush Limbaugh fans piled on the up-dings to the first two comments in that thread. If anyone would like to counteract their crap and down-ding those comments, I won't object.
| 71 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:52:33pm |
re: #26 LudwigVanQuixote
And that is fair. You DF are a great person and I know that you wold get into a reasonable convo about this. Personally, I do not see the public option as the end of America and I am going mostly by what my MD relatives are telling me about it.
I am certain we could and would have a good discussion - because I know that we have. When the actual bill materializes we will both evaluate it and I look forward to talking with you about it. More than once, you have swayed me on a point.
However, as to these tea party guys... I really and quite sincerely doubt that more than one in ten there knows the first thing about medicine or insurance or anything relevant enough to the convo to say anything of substance. I am sure that many would parrot a bunch of jumbled and false propaganda about death panels though.
Those people are there to rage and be intimidating to the black man and his liberal secular legions that they think is stealing their white Christian country.
I hate those people.
Even a stopped clock is sometimes right. The crazies don't give us any reason to believe anything one way or the other on the topic of health care. But--
The public option in health care can easily be configured so as to slowly but steadily erase every other option apart from a few high-end tony medical gated communities. In fact, that result would be all but inevitable. When B follows from A and politician X advocates A, by implication he intends B.
A public health system serves to make government very big and very powerful. Just having so much money in its hands would make the government much more powerful. On top of that, with a public health care system in a position to flow funding to where it is politically needed, what community of voters would dare to vote "wrong"?
Can a public option improve health care? Public options have turned out at best indifferently, and often rather badly, everywhere they've been tried. The government has taken over the railroads and failed. It's taken over the steel industry and failed. It's now taking over the auto industry to some extent, and it will fail again. Governments are good at collecting taxes, enforcing the laws, advancing basic science, and waging war. They're not much good at running this or that sector of the economy. Why would health care be any different?
| 72 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:53:16pm |
re: #64 Spare O'Lake
I was responding to the specific question about the officer at the end of the video. It is possible the officer did ask him to leave.
| 73 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:54:05pm |
re: #66 Enkidu90046
My reference to getting into a fight was why I didn't attend an anti-Israel protest recently (as in the past few years).
Back when I did, no, I didn't get into a fight, but the protesters were also not quite as insane as I have seen of late either.
It's getting bad out there.
| 74 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:54:16pm |
The PINGeme guy has his blog where he posted a reply to the Rush post since he got the boot here. I got drug in. It was:
But Media Matters
But George Soros
But Rush contributed $2M to veterans
But something else...
I posted a short reply: all that's moot. Rush race baited sarc or not, bad. I have a feeling that won't be understood.
| 75 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:54:34pm |
re: #68 Shiplord Kirel
Keep in mind that this display of rage was over a provision of the health care bill, and an unlikely one at that. Imagine if the sign had said "Gay marriage now!" or "Keep abortion safe and legal!" or "No religion in public schools!"
Or "Evolution is True!"
Oh- that would be fun.
| 76 |
Locker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:55:06pm |
The guy in that video has a gigantic beanbag. I think they would have hurt him if not for the police.
| 77 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:55:26pm |
re: #7 Enkidu90046
Heh... that's nothing... I've gone to an anti-Israel protest wearing an IDF t-shirt.
I once went to a Halloween party in LA, dressed as a Celtic.
| 78 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:56:16pm |
re: #65 Charles
(Psst. I used the 'M' word deliberately to see how long it would take for someone to start screaming about the Roy Blunt incident... Yes, I am that evil.)
DUN DUN DUNNN.
| 79 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:56:20pm |
re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist
It's getting bad out there.
It is... and I do have a bit of a rage issue (particularly about certain subject matters)... so, in order to keep me from getting a criminal record, it is probably best that I avoid certain settings.
| 80 |
Spare O'Lake Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:57:36pm |
re: #76 Locker
The guy in that video has a gigantic beanbag. I think they would have hurt him if not for the police.
It's his pre-existing condition.
| 81 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:57:43pm |
re: #57 Van Helsing
There are certainly areas in the whole healthcare service/healthcare insurance industries that could use some serious improvement.
None of the proposed legislation I've read seems to do that.
If there is as much waste and fraud in the current (Medicare/Medicaid) programs as stated, enough to fund these sweeping reforms, why not take a couple of years and fix that? Apply the lessons learned to any new programs.Do a some more studies on the cost of healthcare service delivery. Find out what the real costs are without the distorting influences of insurance and government payment schedules. Use those real costs as a starting point for reform proposals.
Four things keep popping up in the health care debate and no one is addressing them with any substantive solutions or attempts at same.
a) the high cost physicians must pay for insurance (passed on to us)
b) the high cost of every test under the sun which doctors order to CYA
c) the high settlement payout for even trivial redress
d) the tendency to misoveruse a resource when it is free- the ER visit for a splinter phenomenon
The first 3 could be solved with tort reform. The last with a large overhaul of the entire medico system.
Neither reform is likely. What we're going to end up with is a big mess that costs a lot of money and gets a lot of people killed.
| 82 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:58:13pm |
re: #77 sagehen
I once went to a Halloween party in LA, dressed as a Celtic.
I live in LA too and am a Laker hater. During Lakers playoff games, I often wear a "Lakers Suck" t-shirt to bars. I get one of two attitudes... either "fuck you" or "that's the greatest shirt ever".
Of course, during the prelude to the war in Iraq, my friends and I made t-shirts that read, "Give war a chance"... people either loved the shirts or hated them.
| 83 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 8:58:16pm |
re: #21 karmic_inquisitor
So here is what I don't get -
We have a bunch of blogs on the right thrashing Charles for posting on the 9/12 lunacy. They say that these are mainstream folks and the photos posted are cherry picked. In that is the implication that extremists aren't representative because they aren't welcome.
So what message was sent to those extremists to communicate to them that they aren't welcome? Any? What energy goes into getting them to tone it down? We can conclude "none" because we can clearly see the energy and clarity with which a message is delivered to someone who they actually don't agree with.
And if those extremists aren't typical -- where's all the photos of typical, non-extremist folk, with signs that address the merits of the policy in question?
| 84 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:00:45pm |
Great Sunday Night Football game...
I was ecstatic to see the Cowboys lose!!
God I hate the Cowboys...
| 85 |
soxfan4life Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:00:53pm |
re: #81 Capitalist Tool
This public option is such a turd the Dems are scared to death of it, otherwise 0bama wouldn't be working republicans so hard to vote for it.
| 86 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:01:42pm |
re: #81 Capitalist Tool
Neither reform is likely. What we're going to end up with is a big mess that costs a lot of money and gets a lot of people killed
Probably true. We'll get sound and fury signifying nothing (except higher expenses)
| 87 |
solomonpanting Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:01:55pm |
re: #35 Racer X
Liar? Really? Obama is solving the Iran missle crisis with Russia's help, disengaging US troops from Iraq, saving the economy with federally-induced cash infusions, pushing the country towards a long overdue health care fix, prompting the US toward the reality and acceptance of catastrophic global warming and a resulting cure, greasing the works towards green power and away from fossil fuels, setting forth rules and regulations for Wall Street to rein in 'business-as-usual practices', the ability to earn excess profits and compensation, pushing to raise the tax on top earners so as to spread the wealth around to folks who really need it, pushing to create millions of new government jobs so some folks can work, asserting US power over Honduras to show them they should not follow its own Constitution, and has garnered good will from around the globe with his non-confrontational approach to foreign affairs.
Couple all of the above with his gift of speech, his charisma, and the seemingly daily goofiness of a disintegrating non-loyal opposition, and the prospect that the times will eventually improve, I see no reason for anything but a 2012 Obama landslide. He really is The One.
| 88 |
soxfan4life Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:02:22pm |
re: #84 Enkidu90046
That`is the one problem I have encountered living in TX, dealing with Cowboy fans. Would almost rather deal with Yankee fans,... almost.
| 89 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:02:30pm |
Right around 4:03 you can hear some goon saying "Hitler wanted a public option too."
Godwin's law at work again.
Here's a clearer version of the same guy going of on a rant during the same incident.
I think he says "Obama, Hitler, same thing." He also says "Obama's a Judas" but it's not very clear to me.
| 90 |
Locker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:02:34pm |
re: #81 Capitalist Tool
Four things keep popping up in the health care debate and no one is addressing them with any substantive solutions or attempts at same.
a) the high cost physicians must pay for insurance (passed on to us)
b) the high cost of every test under the sun which doctors order to CYA
c) the high settlement payout for even trivial redress
d) the tendency to misoveruse a resource when it is free- the ER visit for a splinter phenomenonThe first 3 could be solved with tort reform. The last with a large overhaul of the entire medico system.
Neither reform is likely. What we're going to end up with is a big mess that costs a lot of money and gets a lot of people killed.
I disagree with you. What's not being mentioned is that people are getting killed by our health system RIGHT NOW, that we have rationing RIGHT NOW, that we have little or no choice RIGHT NOW, that our health care costs are sky rocketing and our coverage is going down due to PROFITS being made off of our health.
| 91 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:02:56pm |
re: #65 Charles
(Psst. I used the 'M' word deliberately to see how long it would take for someone to start screaming about the Roy Blunt incident... Yes, I am that evil.)
monkeyshines
| 92 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:03:45pm |
re: #83 sagehen
There are plenty of pics posted on Flickr of normal people with mundane signs about the deficts, spending etc. There are plenty of nuts too including 9-11 Truthers who are tolerated by everyone else there. Lot's of Nirth Certifikit stuff too, that's a pretty popular theme.
| 96 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:04:47pm |
re: #88 soxfan4life
That`is the one problem I have encountered living in TX, dealing with Cowboy fans. Would almost rather deal with Yankee fans,... almost.
The only team in any sport that I hate more than the Cowboys are the Yankees... they are the ULTIMATE bandwagon team.
| 97 |
Van Helsing Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:05:38pm |
re: #90 Locker
I disagree with you. What's not being mentioned is that people are getting killed by our health system RIGHT NOW, that we have rationing RIGHT NOW, that we have little or no choice RIGHT NOW, that our health care costs are sky rocketing and our coverage is going down due to PROFITS being made off of our health.
Sounds more like NHS in Britain, except for the profit bit.
| 98 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:06:17pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
I think he says "Obama, Hitler, same thing." He also says "Obama's a Judas" but it's not very clear to me.
Yeah, I think you're right.
| 99 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:06:54pm |
re: #90 Locker
I disagree with you. What's not being mentioned is that people are getting killed by our health system RIGHT NOW, that we have rationing RIGHT NOW, that we have little or no choice RIGHT NOW, that our health care costs are sky rocketing and our coverage is going down due to PROFITS being made off of our health.
Both yours and CT's posts are interconnected in their issues and symptoms. Healthcare needs to be made more cost-efficient before it can really be expanded.
It wouldn't make sense to add two extra seats and a truck bed to a car with a broken suspension...
| 100 |
soxfan4life Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:07:15pm |
re: #97 Van Helsing
How many people will die once profit is removed from medicine and puts a halt to the advances we see almost daily.
| 102 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:07:46pm |
re: #87 solomonpanting
Did you forget the sarcasm indicator?
| 103 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:07:56pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
Right around 4:03 you can hear some goon saying "Hitler wanted a public option too."
Godwin's law at work again.
Here's a clearer version of the same guy going of on a rant during the same incident.
[Video]I think he says "Obama, Hitler, same thing." He also says "Obama's a Judas" but it's not very clear to me.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
To compare Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler is a sign of severe moral confusion at best and severe moral turpitude at worst.
| 104 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:08:01pm |
re: #98 Killgore Trout
Yeah, I think you're right.
Strange. They're all getting worked up and he's just walking through with a sign. What do they think that his sign is going to magically make the "public option" appear.
On second thought, maybe they do.
| 106 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:08:51pm |
| 108 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:09:05pm |
| 109 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:09:21pm |
re: #103 Dark_Falcon
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
To compare Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler is a sign of severe moral confusion at best and severe moral turpitude at worst.
But you know who else wore funny pants?
| 110 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:09:29pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
Right around 4:03 you can hear some goon saying "Hitler wanted a public option too."
Godwin's law at work again.
Here's a clearer version of the same guy going of on a rant during the same incident.
[Video]I think he says "Obama, Hitler, same thing." He also says "Obama's a Judas" but it's not very clear to me.
He says, "Obama's a Judas, a traitor to this country!"
| 111 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:09:30pm |
re: #103 Dark_Falcon
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
To compare Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler is a sign of severe moral confusion at best and severe moral turpitude at worst.
I know. Or to call him a Marxist. Methinks a "real" Marxist would at least signed a half a zillion executive orders by now. Of course he's not a Marxist but they insist. Weird.
| 112 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:09:44pm |
| 113 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:10:03pm |
Best LGF flounce ever was on a thread debunking dowsing.
| 114 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:10:19pm |
This guy had a lot of courage to walk through this crowd of nuts.
| 115 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:10:44pm |
re: #113 Killgore Trout
Best LGF flounce ever was on a thread debunking dowsing.
I remember some dowsing guy was in here once.
| 116 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:10:44pm |
re: #111 Gus 802
I know. Or to call him a Marxist. Methinks a "real" Marxist would at least signed a half a zillion executive orders by now. Of course he's not a Marxist but they insist. Weird.
Self dramatization. "Bad president" is so much less cool than "Communo-Nazi dictator".
| 117 |
soxfan4life Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:10:59pm |
re: #106 Enkidu90046
If you want to go out like that, why not just log off and not come back.
| 118 |
solomonpanting Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:11:00pm |
re: #102 meeshlr
Did you forget the sarcasm indicator?
I'm kicking the tires on a few government-subsidized brain transplant options. How'm I doing?
| 119 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:11:39pm |
re: #90 Locker
I disagree with you. What's not being mentioned is that people are getting killed by our health system RIGHT NOW, that we have rationing RIGHT NOW, that we have little or no choice RIGHT NOW, that our health care costs are sky rocketing and our coverage is going down due to PROFITS being made off of our health.
Yes, people die, right now. Sometimes by mistake, but how often by design? Not so much here, but have you had a look at what's happening in Great Britain? The talk of death commitees here isn't so far fetched here when you look at them actually doint that sort of thing under Britain's system.
Yes, we have rationing right now, so to speak. Medical care is a limited resource. How is that going to be improved by throwing the doors wide open to all for any reason and then vilifying all of those who work in the medical profession, thereby driving many of them away and providing a disincentive for others to take up a career in health care?
Yes, our health care costs are skyrocketing and largely for the reasons I gave.
yes, profits are being made off of your health. Profits are being made off of your food and your water and your clothing and shelter as well. Which of those other categories of survival necessities should the providers be required to give to you for free? Are you willing to go work your 8 hr day for free?
| 120 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:12:29pm |
re: #113 Killgore Trout
Best LGF flounce ever was on a thread debunking dowsing.
I don't know- the one freaking out over They Might Be Giants was pretty good.
| 121 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:13:17pm |
re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist
Self dramatization. "Bad president" is so much less cool than "Communo-Nazi dictator".
I was thinking along those line regarding the 2nd Amendment signage we've seen. You know, the "next time we come armed" junk. Whatever happened to just a "Support the 2nd Amendment" sign. Or maybe the older line of "When Guns are Outlawed Only Outlaws Will Have Guns." Something normal. Guess that's asking for too much.
| 122 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:13:25pm |
| 123 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:13:34pm |
re: #118 solomonpanting
I'm kicking the tires on a few government-subsidized brain transplant options. How'm I doing?
You can get a new brain cheap at Curry's:
| 124 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:13:35pm |
re: #113 Killgore Trout
Best LGF flounce ever was on a thread debunking dowsing.
wait a minute. Someone debunked dowsing? Surely you jest!
/
| 125 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:13:59pm |
| 126 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:14:19pm |
| 127 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:14:40pm |
re: #107 jaunte
It's a heretical totem.
Perfect!
"Look, the heretical totem of the Public Option!"
"He's a witch!"
"Burn him!"
///
| 128 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:14:53pm |
re: #124 Capitalist Tool
wait a minute. Someone debunked dowsing? Surely you jest!
/
Dowsing is all wet.
No, that's not right.
| 131 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:15:40pm |
re: #120 Sharmuta
I don't know- the one freaking out over They Might Be Giants was pretty good.
Heh, true.
| 132 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:16:14pm |
re: #129 laZardo
"Well, old people die too of natural causes!"
///
and when they get caught by irate hubbys
| 133 |
Syrah Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:16:40pm |
| 134 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:17:46pm |
re: #127 Gus 802
I'm not sold on the idea that we need a 'public option' or (that it would improve health care delivery) but I think it's weird to boo someone carrying a sign supporting it.
| 135 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:18:04pm |
| 136 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:19:15pm |
re: #133 Syrah
I wouldn't touch dowsing with a 10-inch pole.
| 137 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:19:27pm |
re: #132 Capitalist Tool
and when they get caught by irate hubbys
"My husband never says such charming things to me."
"That is because your husband is not sensitive. He is not caring. He is not perceptive. He is not warm. He is not loving. He is not gentle. "
(Door swings open)
"And he is not in Barcelona!"
| 138 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:19:59pm |
| 139 |
karmic_inquisitor Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:20:15pm |
re: #110 Charles
He says, "Obama's a Judas, a traitor to this country!"
What has he done to Kenya?
/
| 140 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:20:21pm |
re: #134 jaunte
I'm not sold on the idea that we need a 'public option' or (that it would improve health care delivery) but I think it's weird to boo someone carrying a sign supporting it.
Exactly. Or getting so worked up about it. Fact is that people will always have opposing opinions. Sometimes there are counter protesters in great numbers. It serves no purpose to get so emotional about it since that won't effect the outcome. As you can see a few of them wanted to get physical with him or at least break up the sign.
| 141 |
Syrah Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:20:53pm |
re: #136 laZardo
I wouldn't touch dowsing with a 10-inch pole.
Its all in how yew twist it down to the well.
| 142 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:21:47pm |
This was the flounce in the thread for the They Might Be Giants kids' video:
This bizarre plug for the fossilized remains of TMBG made me think of Norm MacDonald napalming Kenny G's Christmas album: "Happy birthday, Jesus! Hope you like crap!"
Not to put too fine a point on it, Charles, but this blog entry is a mass of incandescent gas. They Might Be Giants used to be a group with the ability to make good music. Then they lost that ability. So now they make laughable agenda-driven 'kid's music' crap extolling electric cars and dumping on religion:
I like the stories
About angels, unicorns and elvesSure, Charles. You're just anti-creationist, not anti-Christian. And your sudden fanboy enthusiasm for a washed up 90's band reborn as dispensers of politically correct tripe has nothing to do with your recent bipolar political lurch to the left.
Humans can be very weird.
| 143 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:21:58pm |
hmm.. dowsing... maybe I should branch out
| 144 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:22:53pm |
re: #17 Enkidu90046
I really wonder whether the political spectrum is line or a circle.
It's a giant tub or Rocky Road, full of swirling nuts.
| 145 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:23:34pm |
re: #142 Charles
Ok, I've got a little birdhouse in my soul.. now what?
| 146 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:23:40pm |
re: #142 Charles
I just loved how they worked in a bit of lyric there too. Classic.
| 147 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:23:40pm |
| 148 |
solomonpanting Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:24:01pm |
A young boy rushes home from grade school, bolts through the door and yells out "Mom, the teacher just gave me a role in the new school play."
His mother, excited at the news, asks "What role do you have?"
"I play the Jewish husband."
Her mood changes in an instant and she angrily tells her son "You march right back to school, young man, and tell your teacher you want a speaking part."
| 149 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:24:25pm |
re: #145 cliffster
Ok, I've got a little birdhouse in my soul.. now what?
Call Particle Man to move it to Istanbul, not Constantinople.
| 150 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:24:47pm |
re: #4 bofhell
I love the First Amendment!
On a possibly related note, there is a Muslim prayer service scheduled for this coming Friday I believe. Can't wait to see the reaction to US citizens of the Muslim faith exercising their First Amendment right to peaceably assembe on the grounds of the Capitol.
Maybe if the Muslims didn't have such a distinguished record of intolerance themselves, people would care less.
| 151 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:25:28pm |
re: #150 traderjoe9
Maybe if the Muslims didn't have such a distinguished record of intolerance themselves, people would care less.
"The Muslims?" You mean, all of them?
| 152 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:26:07pm |
re: #151 Charles
"The Muslims?" You mean, all of them?
Obviously not. That would be an unjustifiable generalization.
| 153 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:26:18pm |
re: #142 Charles
You're just anti-creationist, not anti-Christian.
That has the feel of an evolution flounce, delayed by the lack of evolution threads to flounce on that day.
| 154 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:26:19pm |
re: #142 Charles
This was the flounce in the thread for the They Might Be Giants kids' video:
Humans can be very weird.
I can see the hyperventilating now. All for a They Might Be Giants video that was intended for children.
It's not uncommon for some musicians to branch out into children's music. The same is true with artists that branch out into children's book. It's an outlet and sometimes a matter of survival and putting food on the table.
| 155 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:26:23pm |
re: #142 Charles
Charles, I thought that LGF does not get indexed in Google because you have code that denies bots the ability to index your site.
FYI, the title of this thread is in Google and it's the first entry that comes up when searching for "Stone the Unfaithful Tea Party Monkey."
Just wondering.
| 156 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:27:32pm |
LOL. Just watched the season premiere of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Best fucking comedy on TV bar NONE.
| 157 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:27:47pm |
Well I think there ought to be a public option, nothing fancy you know, just a minimum basic thing, with well known limitations from the outset. Spartan, if you will. But there, enough anyway to be able to say that we do not fail as a society at some basic level of compassion. At which I am afraid that we do fail, when I see the expensive corporate bail outs, the exporting of jobs, the political name calling etc etc.
O we can do better than this.
I really think so.
Good night all.
| 158 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:28:20pm |
re: #148 solomonpanting
A young boy rushes home from grade school, bolts through the door and yells out "Mom, the teacher just gave me a role in the new school play."
His mother, excited at the news, asks "What role do you have?"
"I play the Jewish husband."
Her mood changes in an instant and she angrily tells her son "You march right back to school, young man, and tell your teacher you want a speaking part."
A mom is getting her son ready for the first day at school
"Now Bubele" Bubele is a Yiddish term of endearment that a parent or grandparent uses on a young child or grandchild "don't forget to pay attention in class."
"And bubele, be nice to your classmates."
"And bubele, sit up straight in class"
(etc.)
The day passes, and the child comes home.
"So bubele, what did you learn for your first day of school?"
"That my name is 'David'"
| 159 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:28:39pm |
re: #153 jaunte
That has the feel of an evolution flounce, delayed by the lack of evolution threads to flounce on that day.
It was science-y, so it was close enough.
| 160 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:29:18pm |
re: #156 TheMatrix31
LOL. Just watched the season premiere of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Best fucking comedy on TV bar NONE.
I thought the Seinfeld reunion was supposed to be on the premiere...:-(
| 161 |
Sharmuta Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:29:35pm |
I always wanted a music flounce. I had no idea I would actually see one.
| 163 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:30:03pm |
re: #159 Sharmuta
Right, it did mention "incandescent, gas, and electric." Very scientific.
| 164 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:30:03pm |
re: #157 Ojoe
Well I think there ought to be a public option, nothing fancy you know, just a minimum basic thing, with well known limitations from the outset. Spartan, if you will. But there, enough anyway to be able to say that we do not fail as a society at some basic level of compassion. At which I am afraid that we do fail, when I see the expensive corporate bail outs, the exporting of jobs, the political name calling etc etc.
O we can do better than this.
I really think so.
Good night all.
Next I suppose you'll be talking about Trojans. What then, public funded - nevermind.
| 165 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:31:15pm |
Avraham Avinu wants to upgrade his PC to Windows '95. Yitzhak is incredulous. "Pop," he says, "you can't run Windows '95 on your old, slow 386! Everybody knows that you need at least a fast 486 with a minimum of 16 megas of memory in order to multitask effectively with Windows '95."
But Avraham, the man of faith, gazes calmly at his son and replies, "God will provide the RAM, my son."
| 166 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:31:25pm |
re: #154 Gus 802
I can see the hyperventilating now. All for a They Might Be Giants video that was intended for children.
It's not uncommon for some musicians to branch out into children's music. The same is true with artists that branch out into children's book. It's an outlet and sometimes a matter of survival and putting food on the table.
It always seems to be right around when they have kids of their own...
| 167 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:32:00pm |
re: #161 Sharmuta
I always wanted a music flounce. I had no idea I would actually see one.
The external perpetual flounces are always pathetic. Like the ones where I see them making light of Al Jarreau, Stanley Clarke, or Charles for that matter. I just laugh.
| 168 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:33:24pm |
re: #167 Gus 802
The external perpetual flounces are always pathetic. Like the ones where I see them making light of Al Jarreau, Stanley Clarke, or Charles for that matter. I just laugh.
Making light of Al Jarreau? What?
| 169 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:33:26pm |
re: #164 Capitalist Tool
Pretty funny LOL
Trojans, there was some joke about them regarding the Trojan nuclear power plant, but I don't remember it.
Also the USC football team is "The Trojans"
Well I said good night so I'd better really sign off...
'night !
| 170 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:33:59pm |
re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
Avraham Avinu wants to upgrade his PC to Windows '95. Yitzhak is incredulous. "Pop," he says, "you can't run Windows '95 on your old, slow 386! Everybody knows that you need at least a fast 486 with a minimum of 16 megas of memory in order to multitask effectively with Windows '95."
But Avraham, the man of faith, gazes calmly at his son and replies, "God will provide the RAM, my son."
*groan* ;-P
| 171 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:35:12pm |
re: #168 cliffster
Making light of Al Jarreau? What?
Worse than making light actually. It's really a lot of immaturity at work. Most of it is jealousy.
| 172 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:35:22pm |
re: #169 Ojoe
Pretty funny LOL
Trojans, there was some joke about them regarding the Trojan nuclear power plant, but I don't remember it.
Also the USC football team is "The Trojans"
Well I said good night so I'd better really sign off...
'night !
buenos snowshoes
| 173 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:35:49pm |
re: #168 cliffster
Making light of Al Jarreau? What?
If so, it's probably because Charles played in Jarreau's tour band, IIRC...
| 174 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:36:03pm |
re: #157 Ojoe
This "we" business.. I wonder how much money you've given to organizations who help people in need of health care. Or if you didn't find a suitable organization, did you start one? How much of your time you've volunteered for the cause? Where does "we" start?
| 175 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:36:38pm |
re: #173 talon_262
If so, it's probably because Charles played in Jarreau's tour band, IIRC...
Yep. That is the case.
| 176 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:36:59pm |
re: #119 Capitalist Tool
Yes, we have rationing right now, so to speak. Medical care is a limited resource. How is that going to be improved by throwing the doors wide open to all for any reason and then vilifying all of those who work in the medical profession, thereby driving many of them away and providing a disincentive for others to take up a career in health care?
Excellent point. I'd like to add that the rationing in the US is just the insurance companies deciding what they will cover. It's not true rationing. If you want a test or a referral or a treatment which is not covered by your insurance, you can get it by paying for it yourself. In Canada, we don't have that option. If the government says that treatment X isn't covered, then tough beans you can't have it unless you're willing/able to travel to the US.
| 177 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:37:40pm |
re: #150 traderjoe9
Maybe if the Muslims didn't have such a distinguished record of intolerance themselves, people would care less.
One of my best friends is a very religious Black Muslim in the bay area who often lectures at Ivy League universities about Islam and tolerance. The man started an organization called the Hop Hop Chess Federation which teaches chess to inner city kids and has a great number of non-Muslims (and Jews in particular) involved in it. Another friend of mine is Bosnian Muslim women in the Chicago area who is proudly pro-Israel and speaks out against intolerance towards Jews within her community when it rears up. I (a Jew) have dated a Saudi Muslim woman (as in, off the boat), an Iranian Muslim women, an Iraqi Muslim woman, and (gasp) a Palestinian Muslim woman. But I guess all these people are intolerant because they are Muslims...
Seriously, I don't like ANY religion using public grounds for prayer services... but I am not going to single out Muslims for doing it and call them intolerant.
| 178 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:37:43pm |
| 179 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:38:12pm |
| 180 |
Ojoe Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:38:25pm |
re: #174 cliffster
Oh man, my brothers and sisters took care of my mom ourselves in her last year. It was a lot of work. And I help run the Scout troop, and the kids get the physical fitness badge.
Well good night really!
| 181 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:38:52pm |
re: #176 meeshlr
Excellent point. I'd like to add that the rationing in the US is just the insurance companies deciding what they will cover. It's not true rationing. If you want a test or a referral or a treatment which is not covered by your insurance, you can get it by paying for it yourself. In Canada, we don't have that option. If the government says that treatment X isn't covered, then tough beans you can't have it unless you're willing/able to travel to the US.
Same in the UK, IIRC, even if you want to pay for it, you can't have it.
That's REAL rationing... by committee.
| 182 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:39:04pm |
re: #171 Gus 802
Worse than making light actually. It's really a lot of immaturity at work. Most of it is jealousy.
Hmm, well I always enjoy listening to Al. I know nothing else about him, and he certainly doesn't seem to stir up trouble. So as far as I'm concerned, leave Al alone.
| 183 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:39:24pm |
re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist
Q: How do we know that Baseball has it's origin in Torah?
A: Because it is mentioned right at the start of Genesis! In the big inning...
Q: Why couldn't Cain please God with his offering?
A: He just wasn't Abel
Q: What kind of man was Boaz before he got married?
A: Ruth-less.
Genesis 2:21-22 -- Is this the first mention of electronic equipment in the Bible? Some would say yes, because from Adam's rib was created the first loud speaker.
Genesis 24:63 -- The first mention of smoking in the Bible? It must be this verse wherein it states that Rebekah lighted off the camel
Joshua 6:5 -- Joshua drove a Dodge truck? This verse states, "...when they make a long blast with the ram's horn
| 184 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:40:52pm |
re: #157 Ojoe
Well I think there ought to be a public option, nothing fancy you know, just a minimum basic thing, with well known limitations from the outset. Spartan, if you will. But there, enough anyway to be able to say that we do not fail as a society at some basic level of compassion. At which I am afraid that we do fail, when I see the expensive corporate bail outs, the exporting of jobs, the political name calling etc etc.
O we can do better than this.
I really think so.
Good night all.
One problem with a limited public option is that it will never be enough. The demand for more and more and more coverage will inevitably come.
| 185 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:40:54pm |
Spencer and Geller's latest project, in association with Frank Gaffney and the insane Christine Brim, "Stop Islamization of America," will be deliberately acting offensively at that Muslim prayer service. People are starting to really catch on their bigoted agenda:
[Link: www.ips.org...]
[Link: spinwatch.org...]
| 186 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:41:22pm |
re: #177 Enkidu90046
One of my best friends is a very religious Black Muslim in the bay area who often lectures at Ivy League universities about Islam and tolerance. The man started an organization called the Hop Hop Chess Federation which teaches chess to inner city kids and has a great number of non-Muslims (and Jews in particular) involved in it. Another friend of mine is Bosnian Muslim women in the Chicago area who is proudly pro-Israel and speaks out against intolerance towards Jews within her community when it rears up. I (a Jew) have dated a Saudi Muslim woman (as in, off the boat), an Iranian Muslim women, an Iraqi Muslim woman, and (gasp) a Palestinian Muslim woman. But I guess all these people are intolerant because they are Muslims...
Seriously, I don't like ANY religion using public grounds for prayer services... but I am not going to single out Muslims for doing it and call them intolerant.
You can list many cases showing that Muslims do in fact have a capacity for tolerance, and I will agree with you. Hell, I have Muslim friends...very tolerant bunch.
But that doesn't change the fact that many Muslims have a very poor record on tolerance. And that's all I was saying.
| 187 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:42:11pm |
re: #177 Enkidu90046
As an addendum... I do recognize that outside of the United States, there is a great deal of intolerance within Islam... but my experience within the United States is that American Muslims have been very integrated into the United States and are no more or less tolerant than any other group in this country.
| 188 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:42:29pm |
re: #177 Enkidu90046
And, what do you mean 'off the boat?"
| 189 |
kay1212 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:42:43pm |
The crowd seemed to be against a public option.
In 1965 when Medicare was set up, the government estimated its cost by 1990 would be $3 billion.
In fact, in 1990, the cost was $98 billion.
There are numerous web sites proving this but an article from 1990confrims the $98 billion number clearly.
So maybe, just maybe, the tea parties are legitimately afraid of the government instituting a new spending program.
| 190 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:42:46pm |
re: #180 Ojoe
Oh man, my brothers and sisters took care of my mom ourselves in her last year. It was a lot of work. And I help run the Scout troop, and the kids get the physical fitness badge.
Well good night really!
Before you go, today, my son's Scout Troop voluntarily unloaded a semi carrying 20,000lbs of pumpkins for an annual multi-charity sale event.
Even with all the typical grabass from the young 'uns, we got 'er done.
I'm so worn out I can't sleep, so here I am.
G'night to you.
| 191 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:43:26pm |
re: #173 talon_262
If so, it's probably because Charles played in Jarreau's tour band, IIRC...
Really? Sweet. We're in this blog together.. we got the kind that'll last forever.
| 192 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:44:21pm |
re: #188 traderjoe9
And, what do you mean 'off the boat?"
I mean that she was a Saudi citizen who had just moved to the United States with her mother and brother.
| 193 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:45:38pm |
re: #185 Charles
Spencer and Geller's latest project, in association with Frank Gaffney and the insane Christine Brim, "Stop Islamization of America," will be deliberately acting offensively at that Muslim prayer service. People are starting to really catch on their bigoted agenda:
[Link: www.ips.org...]
[Link: spinwatch.org...]
They'll make people who are legitimately concerned about Muslim (Jihadi) violence look like bigots.
| 194 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:45:47pm |
re: #192 Enkidu90046
I mean that she was a Saudi citizen who had just moved to the United States with her mother and brother.
That's what I thought...FOTB.
| 195 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:45:55pm |
re: #185 Charles
They're really urging people to get confrontational:
..he SIOA website calls for "every protest of this takiya-jihad-dawa event... [to] include some component of donkey, dog, and women." The reason for this unusual suggestion is made clear on the SIOA site as well: Muslim doctrine, according to the SIOA, says that "Islamic prayer is nullified if a dog, a woman, or a donkey are present."
| 196 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:46:26pm |
Oh, forgot link:
[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]
| 197 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:46:40pm |
re: #186 traderjoe9
You can list many cases showing that Muslims do in fact have a capacity for tolerance, and I will agree with you. Hell, I have Muslim friends...very tolerant bunch.
But that doesn't change the fact that many Muslims have a very poor record on tolerance. And that's all I was saying.
Speaking as a Jew... there's been whole centures, about a dozen of them, during which Muslims were exponentially more tolerant than Christians.
| 198 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:46:40pm |
re: #186 traderjoe9
You can list many cases showing that Muslims do in fact have a capacity for tolerance, and I will agree with you. Hell, I have Muslim friends...very tolerant bunch.
But that doesn't change the fact that many Muslims have a very poor record on tolerance. And that's all I was saying.
Please read my addendum.
I will agree with you to some degree when it comes to Muslims outside of the United States, but Muslims within the US seem to be very well integrated into American culture and no more or less tolerant than anyone else.
| 199 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:46:53pm |
| 200 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:48:20pm |
re: #188 traderjoe9
And, what do you mean 'off the boat?"
FOB= fresh off the boat
And before anyone screams "racism" at me, it was my roommate from India whom I first heard using the term and explaining it to me.
There's also ABCD = American-born Confused Desi = 2nd generation Indian
| 201 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:48:29pm |
re: #197 sagehen
Speaking as a Jew... there's been whole centures, about a dozen of them, during which Muslims were exponentially more tolerant than Christians.
Speaking as a Jew, I can't pray on the holiest site in Judaism because Muslims find it offensive.
| 202 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:48:36pm |
re: #197 sagehen
Speaking as a Jew... there's been whole centures, about a dozen of them, during which Muslims were exponentially more tolerant than Christians.
I have often pointed out that when the Muslims invaded Spain, the Jews of Spain supported them and fought with them because the Muslims were far more tolerant of Judaism than was Christianity. Same thing with the Crusades.
| 203 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:48:43pm |
re: #195 jaunte
They're really urging people to get confrontational:
Exclusive of the offensiveness of disrupting someone else's prayer, is it legal to show up with a donkey in downtown DC?
Also, Muslims pray with women present all the time, so how can that possibly be correct? I've seen 'em do it.
| 205 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:49:28pm |
re: #197 sagehen
Speaking as a Jew... there's been whole centures, about a dozen of them, during which Muslims were exponentially more tolerant than Christians.
Really? Which ones? Examples?
| 206 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:49:30pm |
re: #200 meeshlr
FOB= fresh off the boat
And before anyone screams "racism" at me, it was my roommate from India whom I first heard using the term and explaining it to me.
There's also ABCD = American-born Confused Desi = 2nd generation Indian
And that makes the term ok in your mind?
| 207 |
Athens Runaway Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:50:18pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
Exclusive of the offensiveness of disrupting someone else's prayer, is it legal to show up with a donkey in downtown DC?
Sure, Democrats live and work there without incident all the time.
/
| 208 |
swamprat Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:50:34pm |
| 209 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:50:46pm |
re: #197 sagehen
Speaking as a Jew... there's been whole centures, about a dozen of them, during which Muslims were exponentially more tolerant than Christians.
Weren't they free to practise their faith and do business so long as they paid a special tax for non-Muslims?
| 210 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:51:50pm |
| 211 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:52:02pm |
re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist
Exclusive of the offensiveness of disrupting someone else's prayer, is it legal to show up with a donkey in downtown DC?
Also, Muslims pray with women present all the time, so how can that possibly be correct? I've seen 'em do it.
The women are almost always separated by a divider or even in another room. If a woman were standing in front of the men praying, that would be a problem.
| 212 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:52:07pm |
re: #201 traderjoe9
Speaking as a Jew, I can't pray on the holiest site in Judaism because Muslims find it offensive.
Joe, cool it. Don't start talking like that.
| 213 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:52:12pm |
re: #198 Enkidu90046
Please read my addendum.
I will agree with you to some degree when it comes to Muslims outside of the United States, but Muslims within the US seem to be very well integrated into American culture and no more or less tolerant than anyone else.
I also currently live in the Bay Area, and I haven't once noticed any problems with Muslims in the area. The United States overall - unlike Europe - hasn't experienced any real problems with Muslims who live here. There were some occasions, like in the link I previously posted which Charles down-dinged for some reason, but all in all nothing frightening.
Lets hope it remains that way.
| 214 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:52:14pm |
re: #185 Charles
Our security forces have to be right every single time to protect us. The terrorists just need to be right once to accomplish their goals.
Intelligent people have to be right every single day to keep from looking stupid. Morons only need to be morons once.
| 216 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:53:36pm |
| 217 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:53:45pm |
re: #205 meeshlr
Really? Which ones? Examples?
Medieval Muslim Spain was a very good place to be a Jew, relatively speaking. The medieval Muslim world in general was very open to Jews. Turkey, from the fifteenth century on was home to a prosperous Jewish community that was, in some cases, aggressively courted. That community prospered into the twentieth century.
| 218 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:54:07pm |
re: #209 Fenway_Nation
Weren't they free to practise their faith and do business so long as they paid a special tax for non-Muslims?
How is a special "wrong religion" tax tolerant?
| 219 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:54:28pm |
re: #215 meeshlr
Yep.
Really. "Off the boat" is certainly a racist term, and has been used for over a 100 years as a "slam" on people who are not born in this country.
You need to go do a little research before you just assume that it's a fine and dandy way to refer to immigrants.
| 220 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:54:44pm |
After the big Muslim pray-in, I'd like to see Chabad had a mass tefillin wearing on the Mall and see if anyone complains. I would hope no one would.
| 221 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:54:57pm |
re: #209 Fenway_Nation
Weren't they free to practise their faith and do business so long as they paid a special tax for non-Muslims?
Depends. The taxes varied. Better deal than Christian Europe offered.
| 222 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:55:20pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
What kind of game are you playing, Walter?
| 223 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:55:40pm |
re: #216 traderjoe9
Talking like what?
Posted by mistake. I was going to revise that and posted it instead. Sorry.
| 224 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:55:50pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
Really. "Off the boat" is certainly a racist term, and has been used for over a 100 years as a "slam" on people who are not born in this country.
You need to go do a little research before you just assume that it's a fine and dandy way to refer to immigrants.
I was the first to use the term on this thread, and frankly, your interpretation of it being racist is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that or give it that interpretation.
| 225 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:55:55pm |
re: #220 Kosh's Shadow
After the big Muslim pray-in, I'd like to see Chabad had a mass tefillin wearing on the Mall and see if anyone complains. I would hope no one would.
So you've met Rabbi Samuels too, huh?
| 226 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:56:30pm |
re: #211 meeshlr
The women are almost always separated by a divider or even in another room. If a woman were standing in front of the men praying, that would be a problem.
Is there some minimal requirement for the divider, as there is for a mechitza? And still, I've seen men simply pray in a room with women there.
| 227 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:56:32pm |
re: #218 meeshlr
How is a special "wrong religion" tax tolerant?
That's my point...alot of people who want to point out how tolerant Islam was vis a vis Judasim in the Middle Ages/Crusades seem to leave that rather pivotal detail out.
| 228 |
freetoken Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:56:42pm |
Watching this crowd, it should be clear why Glenn Beck had to seriously curtail the posting of articles and comments at his 912 website several months ago.
This kind of behavior is exactly what I would expect from some of the people who would write nasty comments on that blog.
| 229 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:56:51pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
"Just off the boat" is not racist, just a slam. Similar to "newbie."
| 230 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:57:18pm |
re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist
Medieval Muslim Spain was a very good place to be a Jew, relatively speaking. The medieval Muslim world in general was very open to Jews. Turkey, from the fifteenth century on was home to a prosperous Jewish community that was, in some cases, aggressively courted. That community prospered into the twentieth century.
All that is true, but the exact opposite is equally true. Entire Jewish populations wiped out. Witness Acra.
| 231 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:57:51pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
Really. "Off the boat" is certainly a racist term, and has been used for over a 100 years as a "slam" on people who are not born in this country.
You need to go do a little research before you just assume that it's a fine and dandy way to refer to immigrants.
I have friends from China and friends from India who all use the term playfully to refer to their countrypeoples who are recent arrivals. There might be more to it than that, but what I'm saying is true.
| 232 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:57:58pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
Really. "Off the boat" is certainly a racist term, and has been used for over a 100 years as a "slam" on people who are not born in this country.
You need to go do a little research before you just assume that it's a fine and dandy way to refer to immigrants.
Oh, please. It's not racist and it's not a slam. In fact, it's not exclusive to any race. Get a grip.
| 233 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:58:07pm |
re: #222 Charles
What kind of game are you playing, Walter?
None. When I was growing up in Brooklyn, being "off the boat" was a derogatory term used in reference to immigrants. I was just pointing out to meeshlr what I know about the background of that term. Maybe he hadn't heard of the negative connotation.
| 234 |
McSpiff Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:58:25pm |
re: #222 Charles
i got to agree with Walter on this one. I've seen immigrants take offense to that term. To them it implied they were more like refugees rather than established families who choose to move. Maybe they're up tight.
| 235 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:58:49pm |
re: #224 Enkidu90046
I was the first to use the term on this thread, and frankly, your interpretation of it being racist is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that or give it that interpretation.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 236 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:59:43pm |
re: #232 meeshlr
Oh, please. It's not racist and it's not a slam. In fact, it's not exclusive to any race. Get a grip.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 237 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 9:59:52pm |
re: #218 meeshlr
How is a special "wrong religion" tax tolerant?
Jews in the medieval Muslim world had opportunities and protections that were often not available in the Christian world. I'm not going to tell you that it was absolutely great, but medieval Islam was, in general, vastly more tolerant of minority religions than medieval Christianity. In Christendom, you could pay the special taxes and have your sacred books burned in the same week.
| 239 |
McSpiff Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:00:20pm |
re: #234 McSpiff
Now that I think about it, maybe racist is the wrong term, but somewhere between impolite and offensive is how id label it.
| 240 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:01:06pm |
[Link: goldderby.latimes.com...]
LA Times writer Tom O'Neil has crowned Bill Maher the biggest Emmy loser in history because Maher, whose show was nominated in the aforementioned variety category, has lost 22 times over the course of his career.
You would think he (Maher) would get the hint. Or at least whatever network he appears one...
| 241 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:01:54pm |
re: #239 McSpiff
Now that I think about it, maybe racist is the wrong term, but somewhere between impolite and offensive is how id label it.
I can agree with that, although when I lived in Brooklyn, it was certainly used of Puerto Ricans as a racial comment. But overall, it is derogatory term, and I have never heard it used as a compliment.
| 242 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:03:05pm |
re: #241 Walter L. Newton
I can agree with that, although when I lived in Brooklyn, it was certainly used of Puerto Ricans as a racial comment. But overall, it is derogatory term, and I have never heard it used as a compliment.
People in Brooklyn have very thick skins. I seriously doubt anybody there would flinch at "Fresh Off The Boat"
| 243 |
swamprat Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:03:23pm |
re: #214 cliffster
Ergo, Bigotry is A-OK with you!
We are Americans. Each and everyone of us are descended from people who have had some very contentious contentions with other nations and people. All of whom are now here.
Cowboys and Indians.
Indians And Brits.
Americans and Brits.
France and Spain and England And Germany have all lifted the sword against one another at some time.
There are scores more.
There's this plaque on the statue of Liberty, (they call her that for a reason)...Look it up Read the full version, not just the lamp part.
Learn a little something-something.
| 244 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:03:33pm |
re: #227 Fenway_Nation
That's my point...alot of people who want to point out how tolerant Islam was vis a vis Judasim in the Middle Ages/Crusades seem to leave that rather pivotal detail out.
Christian governments also collected special taxes from Jews, so I don't know how 'pivotal' it can be, unless you simply want to say to hell with all of them, which I could understand.
'Jizya' is not unique to Islam. In fact, there's a really fascinating record of community struggles in late medieval Christian Spain where Jewish leaders would try to prevent wealthy Jews from moving out of the area, because with them gone, the community tax burden would increase for the remaining individuals.
| 245 |
McSpiff Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:04:10pm |
re: #242 cliffster
Im sure you wouldn't flinch if I called you an idiot either, but it doesn't exactly make it a term of endearment.
| 246 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:04:53pm |
re: #243 swamprat
Hmm, I think you grossly misinterpreted my statement.
| 247 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:04:59pm |
re: #205 meeshlr
Really? Which ones? Examples?
re: #209 Fenway_Nation
Weren't they free to practise their faith and do business so long as they paid a special tax for non-Muslims?
We also had to pay a non-Christian tax in the European nations we were (temporarily) allowed in in Europe... but weren't allowed to own property, or practice most professions, and every time we seemed to "get above ourselves" anyway we'd either be thrown out or have to escape, on such short notice we could only take as much as we could carry. Pogroms, inquisitions, and sporadic Easter-time assaults were pretty regular. There's not a single nation in Europe that we didn't at one time or another have to leave in a hurry. Some of them more than once. The word "ghetto" originally meant the part of town Jews were allowed to live -- it was small and crowded, there was a high wall, and a curfew.
It wasn't until the mid-19th century that this stopped to some degree and we received almost-equal rights; but the mid-20th century undid all of that progress and then some. Post-war, a combination of Christian guilt and "oh well there's hardly any left anyway so I guess we can tolerate them now" ended the overt de jure abuse. It's much more subtle now.
In Muslim nations... really it wasn't until the 20th century that we had any real problems getting along. So 1200 good years before the problems started.
| 248 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:04:59pm |
re: #242 cliffster
People in Brooklyn have very thick skins. I seriously doubt anybody there would flinch at "Fresh Off The Boat"
Did I say "flinch." I don't care if you would flinch, or if you like the term or not, my point is the term is derogatory, period, and has been used that way for a hundred years.
I guess some blacks would not be bothered by the "n" word, but it still is not generally used, is it?
| 249 |
dimestorenovel Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:05:33pm |
FOB or Fresh off the Boat is not a "racist slam". Seriously, get a grip...
My mom is a cute fob. Is yours too?
[Link: mymomisafob.com...]
| 250 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:05:59pm |
re: #225 bofhell
So you've met Rabbi Samuels too, huh?
I've met several Chabad rabbis; that's where I go to services.
| 251 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:06:01pm |
I've heard "FOB" thrown around towards people within my OWN culture constantly. Never even construed it as anything more than just a general insult.
Meh.
| 252 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:06:16pm |
| 253 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:06:58pm |
re: #241 Walter L. Newton
FWIW, I sometimes use it to differentiate between immigrants who have been here for awhile where there's still an element of culture shock, linguistic barriers and other adjustments and immigrants who have been here awhile and adapted and adjusted and dare I say...thrived.
One of my uncles- who's not exactly known for his promotion of tolerance amongst all races- used the term to describe favorably the work ethic of some of the Sri Lankan immigrants who came over and manage convenience store or drive taxicabs.
| 254 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:07:02pm |
re: #230 Capitalist Tool
All that is true, but the exact opposite is equally true. Entire Jewish populations wiped out. Witness Acra.
It was never a perfect situation, granted, but I will say that I think the Muslim world did better in the period.
Acra? You mean 1291, or is there another event?
| 255 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:08:20pm |
| 256 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:08:34pm |
re: #250 Kosh's Shadow
I've met several Chabad rabbis; that's where I go to services.
Here too. He is well known in Milwaukee for always having teffilin handy.
| 257 |
Velvet Elvis Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:10:27pm |
Good thing that sign didn't say "single payer now." They'd really have gone apeshit.
| 258 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:10:38pm |
re: #253 Fenway_Nation
FWIW, I sometimes use it to differentiate between immigrants who have been here for awhile where there's still an element of culture shock, linguistic barriers and other adjustments and immigrants who have been here awhile and adapted and adjusted and dare I say...thrived.
Exactly. People who still think they're living in their old country. Hell, even some of my cousins-of-cousins fit this description BIG time.
| 259 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:11:15pm |
re: #244 SanFranciscoZionist
I would've thought the pogroms (sp?) would've been bad enough.
| 260 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:11:38pm |
re: #257 Conservative Moonbat
Good thing that sign didn't say "single payer now." They'd really have gone apeshit.
It was originally, but there was a problem at the printer and it came out "Single PRAYER Now."
| 261 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:11:59pm |
re: #247 sagehen
In Muslim nations... really it wasn't until the 20th century that we had any real problems getting along.
Not sure I agree with that, completely... That is being a little too easy on the way Muslims treated Jews in the centuries that preceded the 20th century. It may have been relatively great for Jews in Moorish Spain, but it wasn't like that everywhere. Just because Islamic nations weren't as brutal, as a whole, towards their Jewish minorities as the Christian nations were for centuries doesn't mean the Jews were well treated throughout the Islamic world prior to the 20th century. They weren't. Moorish Spain was more of the exception than the rule as to how Jews were treated. That said, the Christians of the era were even worse.
| 262 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:12:43pm |
re: #259 Fenway_Nation
I would've thought the pogroms (sp?) would've been bad enough.
Unfortunately, as events in Africa might suggest, pogroms are alive and well, just targetting different groups.
| 263 |
McSpiff Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:12:50pm |
re: #255 Walter L. Newton
It can be hard to understand what really offends people, if they aren't in a situation to fight back. The one Indian guy at work might not say anything. A group of 15 or 30 on the other hand, might be more likely to make their feelings known. At least in my experience.
| 264 |
swamprat Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:14:06pm |
re: #246 cliffster
That's entirely possible.
However, since I was in such a self-righteous mood, I found the poem, and I will not let that effort, however misdirected, go fruitless.
Posted without prejudice,(and I mean that in every sense of the word)
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
This bronze plaque was presented by philanthropist Georgiana Schuyler in 1903, twenty years after Emma Lazarus wrote her sonnet. Originally displayed on the interior wall of the Statue of Liberty's pedestal, it was placed in the Liberty exhibit in the base of the monument in July, 1886.
Emma Lazarus (1849-1887)
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
with conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
| 265 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:14:45pm |
re: #261 Enkidu90046
Not sure I agree with that, completely... That is being a little too easy on the way Muslims treated Jews in the centuries that preceded the 20th century. It may have been relatively great for Jews in Moorish Spain, but it wasn't like that everywhere. Just because Islamic nations weren't as brutal, as a whole, towards their Jewish minorities as the Christian nations were for centuries doesn't mean the Jews were well treated throughout the Islamic world prior to the 20th century. They weren't. Moorish Spain was more of the exception than the rule as to how Jews were treated. That said, the Christians of the era were even worse.
Besides, it doesn't do Muslims much service by pointing out that they USED to be more tolerant than Christians.
| 266 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:15:11pm |
re: #263 McSpiff
It can be hard to understand what really offends people, if they aren't in a situation to fight back. The one Indian guy at work might not say anything. A group of 15 or 30 on the other hand, might be more likely to make their feelings known. At least in my experience.
True. And I wasn't suggest that how the term is taking is eveyone's experience. I was pointing out that it has (and still is) a derogatory term, in my experience.
| 267 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:15:26pm |
re: #247 sagehen
Don't forget The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was penned in czarist Russia about...what? 100 years ago?
| 268 |
swamprat Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:15:30pm |
Yikes twice.
I am tired.
Good night cliffster.
Good night all.
| 269 |
Velvet Elvis Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:16:39pm |
What were the events in Spain that led to Spinoza's (jewish) family fleeing spain to Amsterdam? There were some problems there.
| 270 |
McSpiff Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:16:51pm |
re: #266 Walter L. Newton
agreed 100%.
Anyways lizards, its 2:15 in the AM on this coast, so I must be heading out.
| 271 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:18pm |
re: #268 swamprat
Yikes twice.
I am tired.
Good night cliffster.
Good night all.
Nice poem. Good night twice.
| 272 |
Kosh's Shadow Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:21pm |
re: #267 Fenway_Nation
Don't forget The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which was penned in czarist Russia about...what? 100 years ago?
And is very popular in the Arab world now. Things change, and not always for the better.
| 273 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:39pm |
re: #264 swamprat
In my video gamer's cynicism, this is what the American Dream eventually turned into...
| 274 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:43pm |
re: #251 TheMatrix31
I've heard "FOB" thrown around towards people within my OWN culture constantly. Never even construed it as anything more than just a general insult.
Meh.
It's basically an archaic usage. When I lived in the Bay Area I ran into many people that would simply say FOB - to which I had to ask. I've lived in Brooklyn and New Jersey and never heard it. In fact the first time I ran into it was from reading. Being an immigrant myself I always thought it was funny because we came to the USA by way of a 707.
| 275 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:53pm |
re: #270 McSpiff
agreed 100%.
Anyways lizards, its 2:15 in the AM on this coast, so I must be heading out.
Night.
| 276 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:17:57pm |
I think these are old signs, but still funny.
| 277 |
bofhell Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:18:38pm |
Somewhere there has to be a good pun about the term WOP [Without Papers -- a term generally ascribed to immigrants of Italian origin to the United States] but I'm too tired to think of it.
And I just remembered tomorrow is Monday to boot...
| 278 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:18:47pm |
re: #272 Kosh's Shadow
And is very popular in the Arab world now. Things change, and not always for the better.
Haha, such a Jewish way of arguing about things. Admiring some group of people for persecuting us just a little less.
| 279 |
Walter L. Newton Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:19:21pm |
re: #274 Gus 802
It's basically an archaic usage. When I lived in the Bay Area I ran into many people that would simply say FOB - to which I had to ask. I've lived in Brooklyn and New Jersey and never heard it. In fact the first time I ran into it was from reading. Being an immigrant myself I always thought it was funny because we came to the USA by way of a 707.
Be it may, then I am archaic, and I did hear the term when I was growing up in Brooklyn in the 50's. Ask an older east coast Italian about the term.
| 280 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:19:43pm |
re: #265 traderjoe9
Besides, it doesn't do Muslims much service by pointing out that they USED to be more tolerant than Christians.
Perhaps not. I mention it, however, since a frequent refrain from anti-Muslim commentors is that Islam has been uniformly violent and hostile toward other faiths since its founding, and the history is far more complex than that.
I also see people rationalizing that the destruction of European Jewish communities in the twentieth century does not connect to Christianity, since the Nazis or the Stalinists were 'something else', despite the fact that both groups simply continued a cultural pattern. These same people sure wouldn't give Arafat the same kind of pass, despite his ostensible Marxist ideology.
So I like to mention these things. Keep the conversation going.
| 281 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:20:22pm |
re: #269 Conservative Moonbat
What were the events in Spain that led to Spinoza's (jewish) family fleeing spain to Amsterdam? There were some problems there.
The Reconquista happened.
| 282 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:20:30pm |
re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist
In fact, this is a talking point you will find all over the anti-Islam sites like Robert Spencer's, and Gates of Vienna.
| 283 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:22:38pm |
re: #274 Gus 802
So the Matrix and Gus802 represent the lizards from countries beginning with an 'A'...
| 284 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:23:21pm |
re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist
Perhaps not. I mention it, however, since a frequent refrain from anti-Muslim commentors is that Islam has been uniformly violent and hostile toward other faiths since its founding, and the history is far more complex than that.
I also see people rationalizing that the destruction of European Jewish communities in the twentieth century does not connect to Christianity, since the Nazis or the Stalinists were 'something else', despite the fact that both groups simply continued a cultural pattern. These same people sure wouldn't give Arafat the same kind of pass, despite his ostensible Marxist ideology.
So I like to mention these things. Keep the conversation going.
And also, despite much horrible history, things have improved so much in the West. It give me hope that the Muslim world will emerge from the stuff it's going through, and create again the kind of cultural greatness that al-Andalus produced. Wouldn't put it past them.
| 285 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:23:33pm |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
Really. "Off the boat" is certainly a racist term, and has been used for over a 100 years as a "slam" on people who are not born in this country.
Whatever it is, "fresh off the boat" isn't racist -- it's used to distinguish immigrants who are still ignorant of American culture from those who have culturally assimilated to some degree. In other words, it's about acquired knowledge, not bloodlines. So at worst it might be xenophobic (though very often it isn't, because a lot of immigrants use it in a humorously self-deprecating way to say "please excuse my non-American manners!"), but that doesn't make it racist.
| 286 |
Mauser Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:23:33pm |
I lost the link, but there's a YouTube video of a couple of ACORN folks who snuck into the rally to sell Gadsden flags ("Don't tread on me"). I guess they thought it would be ironic if they could sucker some money out of the Tea Partiers for their organization. Someone started following them around shouting how they were ACORN until they finally attracted police attention, and the ACORN folks were escorted off the grounds. But not before one of them tried to assault one of the people following them with her unsold flags a couple of times. I guess she resented not being allowed to put one over on folks.
(It would be just as wrong the other way around. Fraud is fraud, if you try to mislead people about what you're raising money for).
| 287 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:23:42pm |
re: #279 Walter L. Newton
Be it may, then I am archaic, and I did hear the term when I was growing up in Brooklyn in the 50's. Ask an older east coast Italian about the term.
Hey, my 707 is archaic too. You just don't run into too many people using the acronym FOB. In the Bay Area people would use it to describe family members. If you want the real stuff I lived on the East Coast and heard an earful of the S-word and the W-word directed towards my family from time to time.
| 288 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:24:17pm |
re: #261 Enkidu90046
Not sure I agree with that, completely... That is being a little too easy on the way Muslims treated Jews in the centuries that preceded the 20th century. It may have been relatively great for Jews in Moorish Spain, but it wasn't like that everywhere. Just because Islamic nations weren't as brutal, as a whole, towards their Jewish minorities as the Christian nations were for centuries doesn't mean the Jews were well treated throughout the Islamic world prior to the 20th century. They weren't. Moorish Spain was more of the exception than the rule as to how Jews were treated. That said, the Christians of the era were even worse.
Persia was pretty sweet some centuries. Before the universities opened in Iberia, that's where we used to send our scholars. And the Jewish community in Iraq dates all the way back to the original Babylonian exile; they didn't all go home when the chance arose.
The 1948 evictions from all the Muslim nations was quite a shock to a lot of people who'd felt well-settled and mostly-accepted where they were.
| 289 |
Capitalist Tool Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:24:30pm |
re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist
It was never a perfect situation, granted, but I will say that I think the Muslim world did better in the period.
Acra? You mean 1291, or is there another event?
No, it wasn't Acra, nor that event- something I recalled from Gibbon (Rise and Fall) but not important- another city- large Jewish community and the city was quite prosperous and a center of trade. Someone got a wild hair and had the Jewish population slaughtered and the city went down hill from there- dang swiss cheese memory- goose/golden egg thing.
I'm falling asleep in my chair- armageddon outta here.
| 290 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:24:34pm |
re: #283 Fenway_Nation
So the Matrix and Gus802 represent the lizards from countries beginning with an 'A'...
Where's Matrix from?
Matrix...
| 291 |
Velvet Elvis Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:24:54pm |
I found my notebook. (and it's in wikipedia) Spinoza's family were fleeing the Portuguese inquisition, so it was the Catholics who drove them out, not Muslims.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 292 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:25:12pm |
re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist
I have an ex-GF who is far smarter than me (and a really great student of history) who pointed out that the turning point of the descent of the Islamic world into fundamentalism can generally be traced back to the fall of Alexandria in 1799 (?).
| 293 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:26:22pm |
re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist
Perhaps not. I mention it, however, since a frequent refrain from anti-Muslim commentors is that Islam has been uniformly violent and hostile toward other faiths since its founding, and the history is far more complex than that.
I also see people rationalizing that the destruction of European Jewish communities in the twentieth century does not connect to Christianity, since the Nazis or the Stalinists were 'something else', despite the fact that both groups simply continued a cultural pattern. These same people sure wouldn't give Arafat the same kind of pass, despite his ostensible Marxist ideology.
So I like to mention these things. Keep the conversation going.
Trust me, I'm not crediting Muslims for inventing anti-Semitism. Nor do I admire the Christians anymore than I admire the Muslims. I think many people hate the Jews equally, but they just have different ways of expressing that hate.
[psychology mode] Arab rhetoric and actions in the Middle East are really nothing but a manifestation of the European subconscious. [/psychology mode]
| 294 |
Athens Runaway Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:26:46pm |
re: #292 Enkidu90046
I have an ex-GF who is far smarter than me (and a really great student of history) who pointed out that the turning point of the descent of the Islamic world into fundamentalism can generally be traced back to the fall of Alexandria in 1799 (?).
Something about destroying a center of human knowledge and commerce and the ancillary colleges and education centers, I'm sure...
| 295 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:27:07pm |
re: #288 sagehen
Persia was pretty sweet some centuries. Before the universities opened in Iberia, that's where we used to send our scholars. And the Jewish community in Iraq dates all the way back to the original Babylonian exile; they didn't all go home when the chance arose.
The 1948 evictions from all the Muslim nations was quite a shock to a lot of people who'd felt well-settled and mostly-accepted where they were.
The Yemenis, on the other hand, had always known people were just waiting to get rid of them...they were right.
The Persians, actually, preserved the biggest Jewish community after 48. Much less rabid reaction than the Arabs. Mostly because the Persians could not be bothered to give a damn if the Arabs were losing some land or not. ;)
| 296 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:27:30pm |
re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist
And also, despite much horrible history, things have improved so much in the West. It give me hope that the Muslim world will emerge from the stuff it's going through, and create again the kind of cultural greatness that al-Andalus produced. Wouldn't put it past them.
Frankly, I have discussed this with the Muslim friend of mine I mentioned above who often lectures on Islam and tolerance. We disagree on a lot, but we both agree that the Islamic world as a whole is desperately in need of a Renaissance.
| 297 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:27:40pm |
re: #289 Capitalist Tool
No, it wasn't Acra, nor that event- something I recalled from Gibbon (Rise and Fall) but not important- another city- large Jewish community and the city was quite prosperous and a center of trade. Someone got a wild hair and had the Jewish population slaughtered and the city went down hill from there- dang swiss cheese memory- goose/golden egg thing.
I'm falling asleep in my chair- armageddon outta here.
It will come back. Get some sleep!
| 298 |
Velvet Elvis Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:27:51pm |
re: #292 Enkidu90046
re: #292 Enkidu90046
I have an ex-GF who is far smarter than me (and a really great student of history) who pointed out that the turning point of the descent of the Islamic world into fundamentalism can generally be traced back to the fall of Alexandria in 1799 (?).
More like the fall of Constantinople in 1453
| 299 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:28:07pm |
re: #294 Athens Runaway
I thought that happened long before 1799...
| 300 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:29:00pm |
re: #291 Conservative Moonbat
I found my notebook. (and it's in wikipedia) Spinoza's family were fleeing the Portuguese inquisition, so it was the Catholics who drove them out, not Muslims.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Things got ugly in the century or so after the Christians took Spain back.
| 302 |
Athens Runaway Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:29:27pm |
re: #299 Fenway_Nation
I thought that happened long before 1799...
Well Enkidu did put a (?) by the date. I think you're right, actually.
| 303 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:29:45pm |
re: #290 Gus 802
Well, I'm Armenian. I'm not from Armenia though, and neither are my parents. My Mom and Dad were born in Syria and Lebanon respectively. I'm actually ashamed of Armenians from Armenia, which is too damn bad. I was born and raised in the US, as my parents came to America in the late 1970s...
What about you?
| 304 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:29:53pm |
re: #292 Enkidu90046
I have an ex-GF who is far smarter than me (and a really great student of history) who pointed out that the turning point of the descent of the Islamic world into fundamentalism can generally be traced back to the fall of Alexandria in 1799 (?).
Don't know much about the eighteenth century outside of the U.S. and Western Europe.
| 305 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:30:01pm |
re: #288 sagehen
Persia/Iran was one of the exceptions as to Jewish treatment of Jews (outside of Moorish Spain).
| 306 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:30:30pm |
re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist
The Yemenis, on the other hand, had always known people were just waiting to get rid of them...they were right.
The Persians, actually, preserved the biggest Jewish community after 48. Much less rabid reaction than the Arabs. Mostly because the Persians could not be bothered to give a damn if the Arabs were losing some land or not. ;)
The Persians even helped Israel after '48...supplied them with oil. They also purchased a plethora of weapons from Israel. They were an excellent example of a Muslim nation getting along with Israel.
Turkey was another example, but unfortunately they've decided to go down a different path in recent years.
| 307 |
Velvet Elvis Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:31:21pm |
| 308 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:31:31pm |
re: #296 Enkidu90046
Frankly, I have discussed this with the Muslim friend of mine I mentioned above who often lectures on Islam and tolerance. We disagree on a lot, but we both agree that the Islamic world as a whole is desperately in need of a Renaissance.
Maybe it'll be the green scarf people who bring it about. Wouldn't that just drive John Bolton and Dick Cheney crazy?
| 309 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:31:34pm |
re: #293 traderjoe9
Trust me, I'm not crediting Muslims for inventing anti-Semitism. Nor do I admire the Christians anymore than I admire the Muslims. I think many people hate the Jews equally, but they just have different ways of expressing that hate.
[psychology mode] Arab rhetoric and actions in the Middle East are really nothing but a manifestation of the European subconscious. [/psychology mode]
Anti-Semitism morphs a lot depending on time and place and culture. Not putting any words in your mouth, or not trying to--just someone who reads way too much medieval Jewish history and tends to babble on...
| 311 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:32:23pm |
re: #292 Enkidu90046
I have an ex-GF who is far smarter than me (and a really great student of history) who pointed out that the turning point of the descent of the Islamic world into fundamentalism can generally be traced back to the fall of Alexandria in 1799 (?).
Interesting. I thought pretty much the entire northern hemisphere outside of north america had been there for centuries and centuries, but slowly Europe started coming out of it.
| 312 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:33:09pm |
| 313 |
Silvergirl Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:33:29pm |
Come on, it's only 50 seconds of your life.
| 314 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:34:05pm |
re: #302 Athens Runaway
The fall of Alexandria to the French happened somewhere around the turn of the 18th century... but the destruction of the library and Alexandria as a cultural learning center goes back a lot longer in history (and predates Islam). In fact, although I may be wrong about this, I think the destruction of the Great library was at the hands of the Christians.
| 315 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:34:25pm |
re: #201 traderjoe9
Speaking as a Jew, I can't pray on the holiest site in Judaism because Muslims find it offensive.
And what was wrong with this one?
| 316 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:34:28pm |
re: #301 Fenway_Nation
Not Istanbul?
/
The really funny thing is that 'Istanbul' is also a Greek name. Just the one the Turks preferred to use.
| 317 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:35:14pm |
re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist
just someone who reads way too much medieval Jewish history and tends to babble on Babylon...
Fixed that for ya.
| 319 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:35:32pm |
re: #314 Enkidu90046
The fall of Alexandria to the French happened somewhere around the turn of the 18th century... but the destruction of the library and Alexandria as a cultural learning center goes back a lot longer in history (and predates Islam). In fact, although I may be wrong about this, I think the destruction of the Great library was at the hands of the Christians.
Maybe it was rebuilt and destroyed more than once? I thought Marc Antony did it the first time...
| 320 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:35:49pm |
re: #302 Athens Runaway
Well Enkidu did put a (?) by the date. I think you're right, actually.
I somehow find it cheering that when you type 'Alexandria Library' into Google, your first hit is for the the public library in Alexandria, VA.
| 321 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:36:13pm |
re: #303 TheMatrix31
Well, I'm Armenian. I'm not from Armenia though, and neither are my parents. My Mom and Dad were born in Syria and Lebanon respectively. I'm actually ashamed of Armenians from Armenia, which is too damn bad. I was born and raised in the US, as my parents came to America in the late 1970s...
What about you?
Argentina. Mom's side Spain. Father's Italy by way of Brazil and Uruguay. My great-grandmother is unknown because she grew up from an orphanage. My mom's parents emigrated to Argentina from Spain nearby Portugal. One grandfather was a metal smith and the other ran a movie theater.
| 322 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:37:34pm |
| 323 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:37:47pm |
| 324 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:37:53pm |
re: #311 cliffster
Interesting. I thought pretty much the entire northern hemisphere outside of north america had been there for centuries and centuries, but slowly Europe started coming out of it.
I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. Can you rephrase it?
| 325 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:38:20pm |
re: #315 traderjoe9
And what was wrong with this one?
I understand you're upset with my for some reason...could you convey to me why?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 326 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:39:14pm |
re: #317 Fenway_Nation
just someone who reads way too much medieval Jewish history and tends to
babbleonBabylon...Fixed that for ya.
LOL. Nice catch.
| 328 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:39:45pm |
re: #311 cliffster
Interesting. I thought pretty much the entire northern hemisphere outside of north america had been there for centuries and centuries, but slowly Europe started coming out of it.
To some degree, yes... but to some degree no (at least from my understanding of history). Europe came out of it (sort of...) while the Islamic world descended into it.
| 329 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:41:00pm |
re: #323 TheMatrix31
Yum, Argentinian chicks are hot.
/even their President, even though she's a nutbag
I could move over a couple of countries and think of Shakira. She's half Lebanese but I digress. ;)
| 330 |
Racer X Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:41:26pm |
| 331 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:41:33pm |
re: #323 TheMatrix31
Yum, Argentinian chicks are hot.
/even their President, even though she's a nutbag
Most hot chicks are nutbags, IME.
| 332 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:41:54pm |
re: #313 Silvergirl
Come on, it's only 50 seconds of your life.
How adorable. Well, no one can say they weren't warned...
| 333 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:42:55pm |
re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. Can you rephrase it?
Sorry. I was suggesting that a good portion of the world that, let's say, generally shaped Europe and the USA, had been dominated by fundamentalism for several centuries prior to the date cited.
| 334 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:43:00pm |
re: #247 sagehen
In Muslim nations... really it wasn't until the 20th century that we had any real problems getting along. So 1200 good years before the problems started.
Isn't that the opposite of what one would expect? That the problems would have been long ago with improved relations now?
| 335 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:44:08pm |
re: #261 Enkidu90046
Not sure I agree with that, completely... That is being a little too easy on the way Muslims treated Jews in the centuries that preceded the 20th century. It may have been relatively great for Jews in Moorish Spain, but it wasn't like that everywhere. Just because Islamic nations weren't as brutal, as a whole, towards their Jewish minorities as the Christian nations were for centuries doesn't mean the Jews were well treated throughout the Islamic world prior to the 20th century. They weren't. Moorish Spain was more of the exception than the rule as to how Jews were treated. That said, the Christians of the era were even worse.
It is a myth that Jews in Muslim countries were treated well. They were not. It just happened that in most cases, the Mohammedan ruling class protected their "dhimmi" population because they were a source of revenue. The Christian nobility of Poland and Central Europe treated their Jewish population just as well as the Muslim rulers.
| 336 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:44:22pm |
Unless I'm misremembering, didn't the 12th-century Jewish sage Maimonides have to flee Muslim-occupied Spain because of attacks against Jews, but ultimately he chose to settle with his family in Muslim-occupied Egypt, because Judenhass in Christian-occupied Europe was as bad or worse than on the Iberian peninsula?
| 337 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:45:01pm |
Why did I just make a double post?re: #336 Throbert McGee
Unless I'm misremembering, didn't the 12th-century Jewish sage Maimonides have to flee Muslim-occupied Spain because of attacks against Jews, but ultimately he chose to settle with his family in Muslim-occupied Egypt, because Judenhass in Christian-occupied Europe was as bad or worse than on the Iberian peninsula?
Rambam lived during the Crusades.
| 338 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:46:52pm |
re: #319 sagehen
Maybe it was rebuilt and destroyed more than once? I thought Marc Antony did it the first time...
Per Wikipedia, (I know), Caesar got it in 48 BC, Aurelian took it out in the third century AD, at least part of the collection was destroyed by Byzantine officials in 391, and then the Arabs came in 642 and finished the job.
It sounds as though the first two may have been at least partially accidental, due to fire and wartime accidents.
| 339 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:47:34pm |
re: #321 Gus 802
re: #323 TheMatrix31
Yea...about that.
Sometimes hot-but-deranged chicks get their way...which isn't always a good thing
| 340 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:48:21pm |
re: #333 cliffster
Sorry. I was suggesting that a good portion of the world that, let's say, generally shaped Europe and the USA, had been dominated by fundamentalism for several centuries prior to the date cited.
Thank you. Makes sense now!
| 341 |
TheMatrix31 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:48:35pm |
re: #339 Fenway_Nation
re: #323 TheMatrix31
Yea...about that.
Sometimes hot-but-deranged chicks get their way...which isn't always a good thing
Ugh.
| 342 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:49:12pm |
re: #334 meeshlr
Isn't that the opposite of what one would expect? That the problems would have been long ago with improved relations now?
Moving into the 20th century was a rough transition for them; they needed a scapegoat, and we were the most convenient.
| 343 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:49:48pm |
re: #334 meeshlr
Isn't that the opposite of what one would expect? That the problems would have been long ago with improved relations now?
It just doesn't always go that way.
| 344 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:49:55pm |
re: #336 Throbert McGee
But by the 12th Century, hadn't El Cid and the Christians reconquered the Iberian peninsula? I am a little fuzzy on my dates.
| 345 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:49:58pm |
re: #339 Fenway_Nation
re: #323 TheMatrix31
Yea...about that.
Sometimes hot-but-deranged chicks get their way...which isn't always a good thing
Yeah, but you know that I hold no hope for Argentina. They're doing their best to emulate Venezuela. If Cristina Kirchner is reelected remains to be seen.
| 346 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:50:47pm |
re: #335 Alouette
It is a myth that Jews in Muslim countries were treated well. They were not. It just happened that in most cases, the Mohammedan ruling class protected their "dhimmi" population because they were a source of revenue. The Christian nobility of Poland and Central Europe treated their Jewish population just as well as the Muslim rulers.
That's too simple, I think.
| 347 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:51:31pm |
re: #344 Enkidu90046
But by the 12th Century, hadn't El Cid and the Christians reconquered the Iberian peninsula? I am a little fuzzy on my dates.
Ferdinand and Isabella. 1400's.
| 348 |
austin_blue Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:53:01pm |
re: #189 kay1212
The crowd seemed to be against a public option.
In 1965 when Medicare was set up, the government estimated its cost by 1990 would be $3 billion.
In fact, in 1990, the cost was $98 billion.
There are numerous web sites proving this but an article from 1990confrims the $98 billion number clearly.
So maybe, just maybe, the tea parties are legitimately afraid of the government instituting a new spending program.
In 1970, health insurance was 5% of a family's income. Now, it's 20%.
That was *after* the initiation of Medicaid. Middle class families are being screwed, and for the poor, well they are just dying. So much for the General Welfare in the preamble of the Constitution. We aren't promoting the General Welfare as a nation. We are trying to maintain an unsustainable status quo vis a vis healthcare in this country.
We are acting stupidly, IMO.
| 349 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:53:21pm |
re: #336 Throbert McGee
Unless I'm misremembering, didn't the 12th-century Jewish sage Maimonides have to flee Muslim-occupied Spain because of attacks against Jews, but ultimately he chose to settle with his family in Muslim-occupied Egypt, because Judenhass in Christian-occupied Europe was as bad or worse than on the Iberian peninsula?
Cordoba was taken by the Almohades, who were jihadi-types, in 1148. The Rambam's family took off to Egypt, where he made his mother proud by becoming the Sultan's personal physician. I don't know if they even thought of Europe as an option.
| 350 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:53:32pm |
re: #313 Silvergirl
Come on, it's only 50 seconds of your life.
If Chinese officialdom is mad at her, they could send her and her family to Chicago. She'd fit right in around here.
| 351 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:54:56pm |
re: #348 austin_blue
In 1970, health insurance was 5% of a family's income. Now, it's 20%.
That was *after* the initiation of Medicaid. Middle class families are being screwed, and for the poor, well they are just dying. So much for the General Welfare in the preamble of the Constitution. We aren't promoting the General Welfare as a nation. We are trying to maintain an unsustainable status quo vis a vis healthcare in this country.
We are acting stupidly, IMO.
The amount spent on healthcare will continue to rise as more tests and treatments become available for more illnesses. As we live longer, lifetime total health expenditures will also rise. It's a bottomless pit and the only limitation on it is individuals choosing what they are and are not willing to spend their money for.
| 352 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:55:06pm |
re: #344 Enkidu90046
But by the 12th Century, hadn't El Cid and the Christians reconquered the Iberian peninsula? I am a little fuzzy on my dates.
Not all of it. The Reconquista was a long, drawn-out process. Ferdinand and Isabella took Granada in the 1490s, and ended it, after which they proceeded to kick out the Jews and Muslims and turn the country into a theocratic hell-hole.
| 353 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:55:32pm |
re: #341 TheMatrix31
Not a good indication. the tHugo Chavez regime announced they're closing down more opposition radio stations in Venezuela as well as trying to close down Globovision (an opposition cable network). Ecuador's Correa said he's going to re-write the laws to make it easier to nationalize private broadcasters and newspapers. IIRC, Evo Morales has allowed the Hezbollah-bankrolled Al-Manar TV to set up shop in eastern Bolivia and I think a similar deal is pending or has already been reached with Daniel Ortega. Somehow I suspect they'll be given more freedom than domestic opposition media in those countries.
| 354 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:55:34pm |
re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist
That's too simple, I think.
It's more complicated in the fact that none of these countries were unified, and the treatment of minorities was dependent on the whim of the local ruler.
| 355 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:55:53pm |
re: #333 cliffster
Sorry. I was suggesting that a good portion of the world that, let's say, generally shaped Europe and the USA, had been dominated by fundamentalism for several centuries prior to the date cited.
I don't think it's really meaningful to describe medieval Europe as "fundamentalist," prior to the emergence of a frightening Modern Scientific Worldview for certain people to react against.
| 356 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:56:09pm |
re: #348 austin_blue
On the other hand, you're not dead. And a lot of people posting tonight would be, if it weren't for this suck-ass health care system we have.
| 357 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:56:33pm |
re: #347 sagehen
But I thought the Christian had reconquered the Iberian peninsula centuries before that. It was in the 1400s that the Christian rulers decided to get rid of the remaining vestiges of Moorish Spain through the Inquisition...
Sigh, I really need to reread some of my history books because I am fuzzy on this stuff now.
| 358 |
Gus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:56:50pm |
| 359 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:57:18pm |
| 360 |
austin_blue Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:57:49pm |
re: #351 meeshlr
The amount spent on healthcare will continue to rise as more tests and treatments become available for more illnesses. As we live longer, lifetime total health expenditures will also rise. It's a bottomless pit and the only limitation on it is individuals choosing what they are and are not willing to spend their money for.
If that was the experience in the rest of the Western World, I would agree. It's not. The status quo sucks.
| 361 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:58:05pm |
re: #354 Alouette
It's more complicated in the fact that none of these countries were unified, and the treatment of minorities was dependent on the whim of the local ruler.
Very much so, and that was also the case in Europe. Trying to get a big picture out of all that was going on can be very trying. I can make a case for Christian Spanish intolerance as opposed to Muslim Spanish tolerance, but then I look at Catalonia in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries--not too bad! Medieval Jewish history is just complicated.
| 362 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:58:07pm |
re: #350 Dark_Falcon
Funniest quote of the week. I know it's the first day, but I have confidence it'll stand.
| 363 |
austin_blue Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:58:32pm |
re: #356 cliffster
On the other hand, you're not dead. And a lot of people posting tonight would be, if it weren't for this suck-ass health care system we have.
They aren't poor. Lucky us!
| 364 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:59:43pm |
re: #363 austin_blue
They aren't poor. Lucky us!
I have so many things to be thankful for, I never know where to start. But I always try.
| 365 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 10:59:46pm |
re: #357 Enkidu90046
But I thought the Christian had reconquered the Iberian peninsula centuries before that. It was in the 1400s that the Christian rulers decided to get rid of the remaining vestiges of Moorish Spain through the Inquisition...
Sigh, I really need to reread some of my history books because I am fuzzy on this stuff now.
This map may help...and even if it doesn't, it's really cool.
| 366 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:01:21pm |
re: #348 austin_blue
In 1970, health insurance was 5% of a family's income. Now, it's 20%.
That was *after* the initiation of Medicaid. Middle class families are being screwed, and for the poor, well they are just dying. So much for the General Welfare in the preamble of the Constitution. We aren't promoting the General Welfare as a nation. We are trying to maintain an unsustainable status quo vis a vis healthcare in this country.
We are acting stupidly, IMO.
Hyperbolic syllogism does not make sound arguments. Since you like to debate with leading questions:
If it costs families 20% for health care do you expect real costs for health care to go down if the government manages it?
| 367 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:02:23pm |
re: #362 cliffster
Funniest quote of the week. I know it's the first day, but I have confidence it'll stand.
Thank you for that. And now I must get to bed. I've got an AM shirt tomorrow, and I need my sleep. Good night, all.
| 368 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:03:16pm |
re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist
That does help AND it is really cool!!
| 369 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:03:27pm |
re: #367 Dark_Falcon
Thank you for that. And now I must get to bed. I've got an AM shirt tomorrow, and I need my sleep. Good night, all.
Night DF
| 370 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:04:01pm |
| 371 |
harpsicon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:05:02pm |
| 372 |
austin_blue Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:05:20pm |
re: #366 BigPapa
Hyperbolic syllogism does not make sound arguments. Since you like to debate with leading questions:
If it costs families 20% for health care do you expect real costs for health care to go down if the government manages it?
If families are given the option to choose a government run extension of Medicaire, which runs with a 3-5% overhead?
What do you think?
Hell yes, it'll be less expensive.
| 373 |
Sergeant Major Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:05:49pm |
Just one simple question...Why would you go to a "tea party" with that sign?
| 374 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:08:11pm |
re: #373 Sergeant Major
Just one simple question...Why would you go to a "tea party" with that sign?
One simple question - was that a rhetorical question?
| 375 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:10:27pm |
re: #368 Enkidu90046
That does help AND it is really cool!!
As you can see, it ends in 1300. I don't know the exact timeline, but Granada in the far south lasted as a Moorish kingdom until the 1490s.
Of course, the Christian states still had Muslims in them, still used Arabic, especially as a literary and scientific language...Spain continued to be a culturally complex place. Pity they went so berserk in the 1500s.
| 376 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:10:41pm |
re: #374 cliffster
One simple question- if a train leaves Cincinnati heading northeast at 45MPH and has to make seven stops while another train leaves Cleveland heading southeast at 60MPH with no stops...
what are they serving in the dining car?
| 378 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:11:36pm |
re: #371 harpsicon
1492
More Emma Lazarus:
1492
Thou two-faced year, Mother of Change and Fate,
Didst weep when Spain cast forth with flaming sword,
The children of the prophets of the Lord,
Prince, priest, and people, spurned by zealot hate.
Hounded from sea to sea, from state to state,
The West refused them, and the East abhorred.
No anchorage the known world could afford,
Close-locked was every port, barred every gate.
Then smiling, thou unveil’dst, O two-faced year,
A virgin world where doors of sunset part,
Saying, “Ho, all who weary, enter here!
There falls each ancient barrier that the art
Of race or creed or rank devised, to rear
Grim bulwarked hatred between heart and heart!”
| 379 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:11:50pm |
I'm about ready to hit the sack, too, but before I go, can any of you pop-culture mavens ID the gesture that my friend Danielle and I are making in this photo from my high-school reunion last night? (We were imitating ourselves doing the same pose 20 years ago.)
And here's a picture of me looking less deer-in-the-headlights, and modeling my homemade T-shirt, with Danielle and Melissa.
| 380 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:12:01pm |
re: #372 austin_blue
If families are given the option to choose a government run extension of Medicaire, which runs with a 3-5% overhead?
What do you think?
Hell yes, it'll be less expensive.
We could probably save 2-3% just by getting the insurance companies to adopt a universal billing form with standardized codes. It would put a lot of clerks out of work, but there must be something more useful they could be doing.
| 381 |
harpsicon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:12:20pm |
re: #314 Enkidu90046
The fall of Alexandria to the French happened somewhere around the turn of the 18th century... but the destruction of the library and Alexandria as a cultural learning center goes back a lot longer in history (and predates Islam). In fact, although I may be wrong about this, I think the destruction of the Great library was at the hands of the Christians.
The Arabs. (See #338)
I believe it was the Caliph Omar who had the whole thing burned, which was the coup de grace. He is supposed to have said, "If the books agree with Islam, they are redundant; if they don't, they should be burned." Either way, he figured he had it right.
Interesting that it took until the 12th century for Philip the Bold (I think) to say "Kill them all; God will know his own.," when taking Provence. Same logic!
| 382 |
Enkidu90046 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:12:50pm |
re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist
On that note... I am going off line for the evening so I can pay attention to Bobby Flay's Throwdown on the Food Network... they are having a Fajita throwdown right now that looks delicious.
G'nite lizards.
| 383 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:12:59pm |
re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist
As you can see, it ends in 1300. I don't know the exact timeline, but Granada in the far south lasted as a Moorish kingdom until the 1490s.
Of course, the Christian states still had Muslims in them, still used Arabic, especially as a literary and scientific language...Spain continued to be a culturally complex place. Pity they went so berserk in the 1500s.
800 years of constant warfare against people bent on conquering, subjugating, then converting you might make you kind of hard and angry probably.
| 384 |
cliffster Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:14:00pm |
re: #376 Fenway_Nation
One simple question- if a train leaves Cincinnati heading northeast at 45MPH and has to make seven stops while another train leaves Cleveland heading southeast at 60MPH with no stops...
what are they serving in the dining car?
That's above my pay grade. Off to bed I go. Night all.
| 385 |
Silvergirl Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:14:04pm |
re: #379 Throbert McGee
Can't identify the gesture, but it's fun seeing you.
| 386 |
SpaceJesus Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:14:37pm |
re: #383 SpaceJesus
800 years of constant warfare against people bent on conquering, subjugating, then converting you might make you kind of hard and angry probably.
of course the spanish kind of did the same thing to the aztecs ironically enough. you'd think they would have known what it was like to be invaded and converted.
| 387 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:15:26pm |
re: #381 harpsicon
The Arabs. (See #338)
I believe it was the Caliph Omar who had the whole thing burned, which was the coup de grace. He is supposed to have said, "If the books agree with Islam, they are redundant; if they don't, they should be burned." Either way, he figured he had it right.
Interesting that it took until the 12th century for Philip the Bold (I think) to say "Kill them all; God will know his own.," when taking Provence. Same logic!
And earlier apparently some of the Alexandria collection was destroyed when Theodosian ordered pagan temples demolished.
Why do people keep DOING this stuff? Bleah.
| 389 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:16:44pm |
re: #372 austin_blue
If families are given the option to choose a government run extension of Medicaire, which runs with a 3-5% overhead?
What do you think?
Hell yes, it'll be less expensive.
OK, so a family goes with a gov health care plan that runs 3-5% OH instead of the 15% in private companies (with the assumption that most of that is profit).
So that 20% of healthcare costs just dropped by 15%. Instead of it costing 20% it now costs 17%. So all the profit is now gone and the government runs the show. So after all this, we'll be saving 3% of costs and it will be run like the DMV and the IRS.
| 390 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:16:50pm |
You know, I can't think of a better name for the world's perpetual antagonists. Jews. It's a fantastic word in every language."Ehud" "Juden" "Jid" You can't find me a translation where "Jew" doesn't sound like the perfect scapegoat name.
"The Jews did it." It has a certain ring to it...
| 391 |
harpsicon Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:16:56pm |
re: #378 SanFranciscoZionist
More Emma Lazarus:
1492
Thou two-faced year, Mother of Change and Fate,
Didst weep when Spain cast forth with flaming sword,
The children of the prophets of the Lord,
Prince, priest, and people, spurned by zealot hate.
Hounded from sea to sea, from state to state,
The West refused them, and the East abhorred.
No anchorage the known world could afford,
Close-locked was every port, barred every gate.
Then smiling, thou unveil’dst, O two-faced year,
A virgin world where doors of sunset part,
Saying, “Ho, all who weary, enter here!
There falls each ancient barrier that the art
Of race or creed or rank devised, to rear
Grim bulwarked hatred between heart and heart!”
They threw out the Muslims and the Jews, just to be safe.
Which of course leads to the question about maybe whether Columbus was tainted somehow with Jewish background and more or less had to make his voyage then... I think the nonsense about Isabella sponsoring him has been debunked.
| 392 |
sagehen Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:18:05pm |
re: #379 Throbert McGee
I'm about ready to hit the sack, too, but before I go, can any of you pop-culture mavens ID the gesture that my friend Danielle and I are making in this photo from my high-school reunion last night? (We were imitating ourselves doing the same pose 20 years ago.)
I don't know, so I'll guess.
Sign language L for loser.
or put your other hand above it doing the same thing upside down -- for square (I think that was a 1950's thing).
| 393 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:18:08pm |
re: #388 Fenway_Nation
So it didn't really take the Yankees long to buy themselves into contention, did it?
| 394 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:19:22pm |
re: #386 SpaceJesus
of course the spanish kind of did the same thing to the aztecs ironically enough. you'd think they would have known what it was like to be invaded and converted.
They don't appear to have made the connection--not enough grounding in cultural relativism, I suppose.
/Cortez went apeshit when he saw the human sacrifice practiced by the Aztecs. Back home in Spain, Jewish 'relapsos' were being burned publicly at court events.
| 395 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:19:46pm |
| 396 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:21:09pm |
re: #391 harpsicon
They threw out the Muslims and the Jews, just to be safe.
Which of course leads to the question about maybe whether Columbus was tainted somehow with Jewish background and more or less had to make his voyage then... I think the nonsense about Isabella sponsoring him has been debunked.
They did some DNA work. Looks like he was a Catalan. Don't know whether to regret that or not.
| 397 |
eddiespaghetti Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:21:32pm |
re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist
The Scale is way off in your comparison. But valid.
| 398 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:21:55pm |
re: #393 traderjoe9
For all that money they spent, they should've clinched the division last month.
What are the Gigantes prospects for the Wild Card?
| 399 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:23:30pm |
re: #397 eddiespaghetti
The Scale is way off in your comparison. But valid.
Well, in the sense that the Aztecs were killing LOTS of people, yes. But I doubt Cortez would have calmed down if they were just killing a few. ;)
| 400 |
eddiespaghetti Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:25:22pm |
re: #399 SanFranciscoZionist
If by LOTS, you mean unbelievable orders of magnitude, then yes.
| 401 |
Silvergirl Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:25:36pm |
re: #391 harpsicon
They threw out the Muslims and the Jews, just to be safe.
Which of course leads to the question about maybe whether Columbus was tainted somehow with Jewish background and more or less had to make his voyage then... I think the nonsense about Isabella sponsoring him has been debunked.
Hey, speaking of Columbus, and since earlier we had talk of Orson Scott Card, one of his that I read that was quite the intriguing read was Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. It's a time travel story to alter Columbus's journey.
| 402 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:27:00pm |
re: #400 eddiespaghetti
If by LOTS, you mean unbelievable orders of magnitude, then yes.
That was what I meant, yes.
| 403 |
Silvergirl Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:27:51pm |
| 404 |
traderjoe9 Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:30:47pm |
re: #398 Fenway_Nation
For all that money they spent, they should've clinched the division last month.
What are the Gigantes prospects for the Wild Card?
Zero. The fucking Rockies never lose.
| 405 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:31:52pm |
re: #392 sagehen
I don't know, so I'll guess.
Sign language L for loser.
or put your other hand above it doing the same thing upside down -- for square (I think that was a 1950's thing).
Upding for the mildly obscure L7 reference (as in, "He's so ell-seven.")!
And actually, all of our mutual friends at the reunion guessed "sign language L for loser," too, when they saw the photo of about half a dozen of us making that gesture during Post-Graduation Senior Beach Week in Ocean City, MD.
I was the only one who remembered after all these years that we were pretending to be kung-fu gang members from Big Trouble in Little China!
| 406 |
Fenway_Nation Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:39:24pm |
re: #404 traderjoe9
'Cept for four games in 2007, if I recall correctly.
| 407 |
meeshlr Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:54:58pm |
re: #360 austin_blue
If that was the experience in the rest of the Western World, I would agree. It's not. The status quo sucks.
Health care spending isn't increasing everywhere?
I find that difficult to believe.
How would you improve the system? How can all health services be provided to everyone without huge costs and therefore huge taxes?
| 408 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:04:32am |
re: #403 Silvergirl
Probably right. Sagehen said that above too.
Makes me think of the scene in Rescue Me, when Tommy has a vision of Jesus doing that to him.
| 409 |
eddiespaghetti Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:14:21am |
| 410 |
BARACK THE VOTE Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:19:28am |
re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist
The really funny thing is that 'Istanbul' is also a Greek name. Just the one the Turks preferred to use.
Hey all -- driving by, have company, I've read lots of this super-interesting thread and promise to come back and upding all you folks i've learned so much from later.
Minor point: The Turks had to change the name to Istanbul, because 'constantinople' meant city of constantine, (polis=city), and constantine being the roman emperor who converted to christianity. The Aya Sofia in Istanbul is beautiful in part for the ways in which it was ripped apart as a Christian shrine and remade into something else. It and Constantinople were the seat of Byzantium and the Church-- it HAD to be renamed.
| 411 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:26:59am |
| 412 |
eddiespaghetti Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:35:33am |
And, due to pressure from the Nancy, it appears @bama's knees are getting wobbly. Stiffen up, your the Commander in Chief, this shit isn't easy.
| 413 |
eddiespaghetti Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:36:49am |
re: #411 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, its the moral relativism that I hate. We are exactly like the russians, exactly?
| 414 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:46:22am |
re: #69 Charles
By the way, Rush Limbaugh fans piled on the up-dings to the first two comments in that thread. If anyone would like to counteract their crap and down-ding those comments, I won't object.
At least one of the updingers on the first comment is not a Limbaugh fan.
| 415 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:49:35am |
re: #152 traderjoe9
A generalization is not an absolute. In general men are taller than women is true even though some women are taller than some men.
Intolerant Muslims make the headlines, but on the whole is their really any evidence muslims are more intolerant of other religions than those who practice other religions. I doubt it. People of faith are often more tolerant of other faiths than atheists are of any faith.
In general are People attending the tea parties for the violent overthrow of our elected government. I doubt that as well, but the numbers who advocate that position are bothersome.
| 416 |
Bloodnok Mon, Sep 21, 2009 3:18:35am |
re: #410 iceweasel
Hey all -- driving by, have company, I've read lots of this super-interesting thread and promise to come back and upding all you folks i've learned so much from later.
Minor point: The Turks had to change the name to Istanbul, because 'constantinople' meant city of constantine, (polis=city), and constantine being the roman emperor who converted to christianity. The Aya Sofia in Istanbul is beautiful in part for the ways in which it was ripped apart as a Christian shrine and remade into something else. It and Constantinople were the seat of Byzantium and the Church-- it HAD to be renamed.
Love it. While I might come here for the politics, I stay for the history. :)
| 417 |
deacon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 3:58:54am |
re: #410 iceweasel
Hey all -- driving by, have company, I've read lots of this super-interesting thread and promise to come back and upding all you folks i've learned so much from later.
Minor point: The Turks had to change the name to Istanbul, because 'constantinople' meant city of constantine, (polis=city), and constantine being the roman emperor who converted to christianity. The Aya Sofia in Istanbul is beautiful in part for the ways in which it was ripped apart as a Christian shrine and remade into something else. It and Constantinople were the seat of Byzantium and the Church-- it HAD to be renamed.
Just an addition, Istanbul is still the seat of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Greeks still refer to it as Constantinople. My wife is what is considered a Byzantine Greek (meaning she was born and raised in Turkey). There are not many left as most have been driven out of the country. She left about 20 years ago, her parents left about 10 years ago, they had to wait until they retired, they taught at the Greek school. The schools are segregated. The Greeks have their own school, but certain subjects are taught only by Turks, such as history. Her brother still lives in Instanbul. The Turks are intentionally forcing the Greeks out because there is a law that only a Turkish born Greek can be the head of the Greek church. So when it gets to the point where their are no more Turkish born Greeks, the church headquarters will be closed and moved to Belguim. The seminary school that trains the Patriarchs was closed by the Turks years ago and it always comes up during EU meetings.
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korla pundit Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:26:29am |
I have to assume this is the reaction this guy was seeking. He looks very happy. He would have been very disappointed if people had ignored him, like they normally do.
Now I hate protest rallies. I was in the middle of the giant anti-Bush/anti-war/ANSWER/CAIR rallies during the GOP convention in NYC 2004, because I was doing some work for the convention. I thought the messages they were projecting were a lot more hate-filled (percentage-wise) than the ones that show up at the anti-Obama rallies. I thought the Bush=Hitler stuff was ridiculous, but I thought at the time "Keep it up; let people see your true face and they will vote accordingly."
But the anti-military stuff, the coffins, the fake concern about the grim milestones and references to American soldiers being the real terrorists, ad nauseum, really pissed me off.
But it would not have been a good idea to stir the pot even further by challenging them there in the street. Even with tens of thousands of cops and national guard troops on every corner, what would that accomplish aside from making my ego feel satisfied? That's not brave. Going to a Park Slope Food Co-op meeting and admitting you voted Republican, now THAT's brave.
Let people protest. Let asshats make asshats of themselves. It will all work itself out in the next 2 election cycles, one way or another.
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korla pundit Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:21am |
re: #410 iceweasel
> Minor point: The Turks had to change the name to Istanbul, because
Hey, hey! Please. That is nobody's business but the Turks.
| 420 |
LoafingOaf Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:59:06am |
He got booed and heckled, exactly as he expected and wanted to be. He was smiling and wasn't assaulted. At some protests (particularly left-wing protests that attract anarchists who like to smash windows and assault the police) I could see someone doing something like this getting assaulted, police escort or not. We don't know what would've happened to this man at this event without police escort, though. Mobs of people are always potentially violent if they aren't put together well. And anyone going to any protest carrying a sign that's against the protest is going to get booed. But there was no violence at this event. Seems unfair to suggest it was a violent mob when it wasn't. LGF has scored some points exposing the dark side of this event and some of its organizers, but LGF may be going a bit too far in trying to demonize everyone there.
I'm not into going to any large political protests, and one of the reasons why is because there's usually too many people at such events I don't wanna be associated with. Also, people get so carried away it's like they think they're the students in Tieneman (sp?) Square standing up to a totalitarian regime. In reality, if you dislike Obama all you gotta do is put him in check in the mid-term elections. People should calm down.
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a marine mom Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:43:13am |
He had a police escort, and obviously needed them. Imagine what would have happened if the police weren’t there.
Seriously?
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Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:46:00am |
Did I ever mention that I hate and fear crowds? This is why.
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Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:46:39am |
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scarshapedstar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:57:22am |
Wow.
I seem to remember all of the dead-ender blogs (Hot Air, Powerline, Instapundit) declaring that the teabaggers were completely peaceful and respectful, (and didn't leave a speck of trash!) like a bunch of anti-tax Jesus-Buddha hybrids.
It's almost as if they were completely full of sh*t!
| 425 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:00:00pm |
re: #410 iceweasel
Hey all -- driving by, have company, I've read lots of this super-interesting thread and promise to come back and upding all you folks i've learned so much from later.
Minor point: The Turks had to change the name to Istanbul, because 'constantinople' meant city of constantine, (polis=city), and constantine being the roman emperor who converted to christianity. The Aya Sofia in Istanbul is beautiful in part for the ways in which it was ripped apart as a Christian shrine and remade into something else. It and Constantinople were the seat of Byzantium and the Church-- it HAD to be renamed.
Actually, I believe "Stamboul" = Istanbul is a Greek contraction of Constantinopolis, so if that's why the Turks "changed" then name, they were fooled. It still refers to Constantine.
| 426 |
Genosaurer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:27:16pm |
He had a police escort, and obviously needed them. Imagine what would have happened if the police weren’t there.
Someone might have gotten a finger bitten off!
| 427 |
irish rose Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:49:46pm |
OK, finally got around to watching this video.
Nothing that you don't see at your typical emotionally-charged political rally. But I will say that the woman who followed along and kept shoving a bullhorn into the old fellows' face should have gotten a bitchslap.
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