At the Value Voters Summit, anti-choice activist Lila Rose says “abortions should be done in the public square.”
Because then we would hear the angels sing.
Youtube VideoUPDATE at 9/21/09 7:41:56 pm:
Some background information about Lila Rose: Citizen ‘Entrapment’: Lila Rose and 21st Century Stealth Pro-Life Activism.
1 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:01:25pm |
I'd like to know what she's smoking, because I could make a fortune selling it.
//
| 3 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:03:04pm |
Does this also mean that all medical procedures should be done in public squares?
I certainly wouldn't go to any public squares... sounds unsanitary...
| 5 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:04:43pm |
I propose the same for hemorrhoid surgery.
"La-la-la"
/Angels singing
| 6 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:05:37pm |
Will they serve hot dogs and beer? Music by FEAR?
| 8 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:06:51pm |
And I guess the Jury that convicts someone of a capital crime should all have to grab rocks and stone the defendant there before leaving the courtroom.
| 9 |
jamgarr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:07:04pm |
Nothing changes the fact that abortion is killing a baby.
| 10 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:07:43pm |
I am guessing that she also opposes premarital sex being legal... I wonder if she thinks that as long as premarital sex is legal it should also be performed in public squares so we can hear the angels sing (or at least snap some photos of the better looking couples)
| 11 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:07:48pm |
Conception is a beautiful, amazing thing. Perhaps we should have that in the public square too, Lila?
| 12 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:09:08pm |
re: #9 jamgarr
Nothing changes the fact that abortion is killing a baby.
While I happen to disagree with you, I understand and respect your opinion.
| 14 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:09:28pm |
re: #11 Sharmuta
I'm on it. Bail me out if I get busted, okay?
| 15 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:09:35pm |
Colts score a TG to tie the game 13-13 at the half.
| 16 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:09:36pm |
Adoption would save more of the people she's concerned about.
Maybe she should adopt.
| 17 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:10:08pm |
re: #10 Enkidu90046
I am guessing that she also opposes premarital sex being legal... I wonder if she thinks that as long as premarital sex is legal it should also be performed in public squares so we can hear the angels sing (or at least snap some photos of the better looking couples)
LOL!
| 18 |
Mr Pancakes Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:10:14pm |
re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth
Will they serve hot dogs and beer? Music by FEAR?
Lee Ving has toned it down a bit...
| 19 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:10:49pm |
re: #15 Dark_Falcon
Colts score a TG to tie the game 13-13 at the half.
This is a great game... really hard hitting and with some great plays (like the Colts' first play from scrimmage).
| 21 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:11:17pm |
re: #16 jaunte
Adoption would save more of the people she's concerned about.
Maybe she should adopt.
Then she would have as much time to spout at conventions. She's having too much fun talking the talk to actually walk the walk and live the life.
| 22 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:11:46pm |
Damn. Where is Buzz when it's just being handed to him.
Meredith Wilson in the house?
| 23 |
Dekar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:11:49pm |
re: #11 Sharmuta
Conception is a beautiful, amazing thing. Perhaps we should have that in the public square too, Lila?
Yea, the birth of life is also beautiful. We should hire midwives to work on the streets!
| 25 |
jamgarr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:12:01pm |
re: #12 Enkidu90046
While I happen to disagree with you, I understand and respect your opinion.
While I thank you for your comment I should point out that you do not disagree with me. I'm sure you agree that abortion is the killing of a baby but you believe that other issue(s) are more important. E.g. "right to choose".
| 26 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:12:24pm |
re: #20 Killgore Trout
Now there's an idea!
"___ should be done in the public square."
___Signed
___Print Name
| 27 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:12:27pm |
re: #17 Dark_Falcon
Just think, couples could conceive and then get an abortion in the same public square! Very convenient!
| 28 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:12:29pm |
re: #11 Sharmuta
Conception is a beautiful, amazing thing. Perhaps we should have that in the public square too, Lila?
We already do. It's called porn.
| 29 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:12:30pm |
Some might argue that colonoscopies are a beautiful thing...
| 30 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:13:05pm |
re: #9 jamgarr
Nothing changes the fact that abortion is killing a baby.
Absolute bullshit.
The VAST majority of abortions performed in the United States are done when the so-called "baby" is nothing more than a few cells. Not even close to a "baby."
| 31 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:13:18pm |
re: #11 Sharmuta
Conception is a beautiful, amazing thing. Perhaps we should have that in the public square too, Lila?
They've got a festival like that in San Francisco, don't they? Once a year out on the streets IIRC.
| 32 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:13:56pm |
Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven
Singing hymns and waving palm branches through all eternity is pretty when you hear about it in the pulpit, but it's as poor a way to put in valuable time as a body could contrive. It would just make a heaven of warbling ignoramuses, don't you see?
-Twain
| 33 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:14:26pm |
re: #18 Mr Pancakes
Lee Ving has toned it down a bit...
[Video]
Wow. You're not kidding about him toning it down a bit. Especially considering this classic FEAR song.
| 34 |
little boomer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:14:31pm |
Issue 1-legality
Issue 2- Innocent, human, life.
| 35 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:14:40pm |
re: #29 bosforus
Some might argue that colonoscopies are a beautiful thing...
Indeed. Andrew Sullivan and Barney Frank come to mind.
| 40 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:16:28pm |
re: #30 Charles
Absolutel bullshit.
The VAST majority of abortions performed in the United States are done when the so-called "baby" is nothing more than a few cells. Not even close to a "baby."
Charles, with all due respect, it really depends on what one believes is the definition of "a baby". Some believe life begins at conception, others don't. As far as I am concerned, this debate will never be solved so I simply agree to disagree with people. With that being said, nothing one believes changes the fact that abortion is legal in this country, like it or not, nor the fact that what this woman said was absolutely irresponsible, stupid and immature.
| 41 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:16:42pm |
re: #34 little boomer
Issue 1-legality
Issue 2- Innocent, human, life.
Issue 3- Distortion First trimester abortions don't involve a human life. They involves a cluster of cells that will most likely become human. Most likely is put in due to the possibility of miscarriage.
| 42 |
Chip Designer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:16:44pm |
While the media portrays abortion as a battle between those who believe conception = baby and those who believe that birth = baby, it is worth while to point out that there are other definitions. Viability = baby and the neurological definition of brain activation = baby are two of the most common ones.
| 43 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:16:52pm |
It's about controlling women's lives for Ms. Rose, it's not about the abortions.
| 44 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:17:43pm |
re: #25 jamgarr
Don't presume to know that I agree with you that an abortion is the killing of a baby. I completely understand why people do consider a fetus or embryo to be a baby... really I do... but just because the "pro-life" movement considers that to be the case, please don't assume that the "pro-choice" movement agree and simply thinks that murder is justifiable or something like that because of "choice". Despite being someone who is very "pro-choice," I do not demonize or make caricatures of people who believe differently and I often defend people in the "pro-life" movement to people I know who are "pro-choice".
(BTW, the downding was not from me, and I use quotes because I happen to hate the terms pro-life and pro-choice, but since those are the commonly accepted names for the two groups, I use them).
| 45 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:18:13pm |
re: #38 Dekar
Battlestations!
Warming up the anti-nutcase particle projector cannons (ANPPCs) now. They'll be online in 2 minutes.
| 46 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:18:17pm |
re: #39 Charles
Lightning fast. What happened there?
| 47 |
little boomer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:18:17pm |
re: #41 Dark_Falcon
Respectfully disagree. It's human. it's innocent, It's Alive.
Regarding Issue 1- It's not a governmental issue.
| 48 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:18:21pm |
This will spice up the conversations!
Classical conditioning in the vegetative and minimally conscious state
Pavlovian trace conditioning depends on the temporal gap between the conditioned and unconditioned stimuli. It requires, in mammals, functional medial temporal lobe structures and, in humans, explicit knowledge of the temporal contingency. It is therefore considered to be a plausible objective test to assess awareness without relying on explicit reports. We found that individuals with disorders of consciousness (DOCs), despite being unable to report awareness explicitly, were able to learn this procedure. Learning was specific and showed an anticipatory electromyographic response to the aversive conditioning stimulus, which was substantially stronger than to the control stimulus and was augmented as the aversive stimulus approached. The amount of learning correlated with the degree of cortical atrophy and was a good indicator of recovery. None of these effects were observed in control subjects under the effect of anesthesia (propofol). Our results suggest that individuals with DOCs might have partially preserved conscious processing, which cannot be mediated by explicit reports and is not detected by behavioral assessment.
| 49 |
HelloDare Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:18:42pm |
In lieu of an angel singing in a public square, you can always buy one of these:
| 50 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:19:16pm |
Beecuz, you know, angels can't sing in abortion clinics. It's forbidden.
| 51 |
ASU86PE Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:19:17pm |
The sad note is that the lack of shame has left us with speakers making statements like this for some sort of shock value.
Too bad a more thoughtful statement will do nothing as well to stop needless abortions.
At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
| 52 |
Mr Pancakes Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:19:49pm |
re: #33 Slumbering Behemoth
Wow. You're not kidding about him toning it down a bit. Especially considering this classic FEAR song.
Before I even look at it I'd say you put up "Fuck Christmas"... just a guess... proceeding to video now.
| 53 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:20:43pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
Unreal. This comment will remain as an example of how batshit crazy the anti-choice people really are.
| 54 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:20:46pm |
re: #47 little boomer
Respectfully disagree. It's human. it's innocent, It's Alive.
Regarding Issue 1- It's not a governmental issue.
What do you mean its not a government issue?
| 55 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:02pm |
| 56 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:04pm |
re: #52 Mr Pancakes
You guessed correctly. It is the only old school Christmas song from FEAR that I am aware of.
| 58 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:17pm |
Okay. Nuther nutjob I don't agree with.
| 59 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:33pm |
To expand on my comment before,
Abortion is such a private issue, it should be left between a woman, her doctor, and her conscience.
The fact that she wants this done "in the public square" shows she doesn't give a shit about women OR the embryo/fetus.
It's about shaming women for a difficult decisio. It makes me sick.
| 60 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:38pm |
re: #40 Jetpilot1101
No idea why that post was downdinged, so I updinged it to balance it out. I think that this post hits the crux of the issue... it is one of belief... definitional in nature, and thus there is a divide that will probably never be closed between people in the respective camps. I do not believe that a group of cells are necessarily a baby... others do... While I don't agree with those who do, I cannot call their belief irrational or provably wrong and I fully understand WHY people hold this belief.
| 61 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:21:56pm |
And some people call me a religious nut!
Well, them being German and me Jewish makes it easy...but even growing up between mostly atheistic commies...I newer got the concept of Christmas (they still celebrate) nor they that of Sabbath...
But this this is not kosher at all! And sometimes I really care what the name of that fish is!
| 62 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:22:12pm |
Hmm. Maybe after this brilliant idea is accepted by the public, we can all delight in watching open heart surgery performed at the local farmer's market.
Hey, if she wants to make the GOP look bad, more power to her.
| 63 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:22:31pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
Oh, please. Didn't the IRS own the Mustang Ranch for a while? Maybe they still do.
| 64 |
HelloDare Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:22:43pm |
re: #50 Cato the Elder
Beecuz, you know, angels can't sing in abortion clinics. It's forbidden.
It's okay if they wear a surgical mask.
| 65 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:23:03pm |
re: #43 erraticsphinx
It's about controlling women's lives for Ms. Rose, it's not about the abortions.
Absolutely right. It's about control.
| 66 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:23:04pm |
What about all the teenage daughters of conservatives? Do we really want to shame them in the public square?
| 67 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:23:07pm |
re: #53 Charles
Unreal. This comment will remain as an example of how batshit crazy the anti-choice people really are.
Quite Concur. That one was pretty bad and I'm sure its not even half as bad as the worst of what Randall Terry's folks say. Pity Salamantis isn't here. We could use his logic firepower in this thread.
| 68 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:23:13pm |
re: #43 erraticsphinx
It's about controlling women's lives for Ms. Rose, it's not about the abortions.
I think that is very very unfair to those who believe that abortion is the killing of human life.
| 69 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:24:17pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
I was looking up an article that I'd found on one of the week-by-week pregnancy sites a little while back (totally non-political) talking about how unbelievably formed an embryo/fetus is as early as 10 weeks. Then I saw this post. Screw it. Anything I say is going to be lumped in with morons shouting loud.
| 70 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:24:18pm |
I'm disturbed this was the best "solution" to the issue this young woman could muster. Obviously her idea will never happen, but real ideas are likely not the ones "Value Voters" are interested in hearing.
How about supporting women's clinics where low income women can get help with birth control? How about fixing adoption laws so more women in crisis pregnancies can get the help they need and couples who want to adopt can have the family they so seek? How about education that helps both girls and boys better understand the impact of unprotected sex, and the economic impact of teenage pregnancies?
She didn't advocate for any of these life affirming, moderate proposals- and I have to wonder why. Instead, she proposes humiliating women in the public square. The only thing I can conclude is that these folks don't want women to have better access to birth control or sexual education because they don't think a woman should have that level of control over her own body- in having sex in the first place, or controlling their cycle. It's the antithesis of feminism, and I simply cannot go along with it.
| 71 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:24:24pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
The sad note is that the lack of shame has left us with speakers making statements like this for some sort of shock value.
Too bad a more thoughtful statement will do nothing as well to stop needless abortions.
At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
WTF???
| 72 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:24:26pm |
re: #63 Dar ul Harbarian
Oh, please. Didn't the IRS own the Mustang Ranch for a while? Maybe they still do.
They ran it into bankruptcy.
They sold liquor and hookers and still could not make a profit. Imagine what they will do next.
| 73 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:25:09pm |
A semi-appropriate death metal tune for the thread.
| 74 |
little boomer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:25:26pm |
re: #54 Dark_Falcon
I believe the gov should not regulate abortion.
The morality of abortion is a different issue.
| 75 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:25:31pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
The sad note is that the lack of shame has left us with speakers making statements like this for some sort of shock value.
You had me up to here.
| 76 |
stevedecatur Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:25:51pm |
Perhaps homeschooling lessons should be held out in the open as well so the angels can sing the crazy?
| 77 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:26:30pm |
re: #70 Sharmuta
Life affirming, moderate proposals are hard.
Pointing at what someone else should do is easy.
| 78 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:26:58pm |
re: #68 Enkidu90046
I don't think it's unfair to say that for anti abortion fanatics like her its definitely about controlling women. I know all people who are against abortions are not like that.
| 79 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:27:13pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
How fucking dare you!
| 81 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:27:54pm |
re: #73 Slumbering Behemoth
A semi-appropriate death metal tune for the thread.
I would love to listen to it but power chords make me want to grind my aging teeth too hard.
| 82 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:27:54pm |
re: #72 Racer X
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Who in their right mind would ever patronize a brothel run by g-men/women?
| 83 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:00pm |
re: #70 Sharmuta
To people like Lila Rose, feminism is sinful and women should accept the proper places as homemakers and mothers. I'm not a big fan of feminism, but I cannot accept her conclusions. They run at blatant cross-purposes with our Constitution. That may not be a problem for her, but its a problem for me. I'm not a fan of forcing people to live a certain way.
| 84 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:14pm |
re: #79 Sharmuta
Another fanatic who has women issues, not abortion issues, IMO.
| 85 |
little boomer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:22pm |
| 86 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:28pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
What??? Do you even have an explanation for that statement or are you just insane?
| 87 |
Ringo the Gringo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:34pm |
re: #5 Killgore Trout
I propose the same for hemorrhoid surgery.
"La-la-la"
/Angels singing
Are you comparing a human fetus to a hemorrhoid?
| 88 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:44pm |
re: #65 Charles
Absolutely right. It's about control.
I used to feel that way about those on the pro-life side until my GF while I was in law school had an abortion. After we made that decision and went through with it, I fully understood why those in the pro-life movement believe that the aborted fetus is a baby. Despite still being pro-choice, I have tempered my views of those who are pro-life quite a bit as a result of my experiences and the range of emotions I went through (and to some degree, still go through).
| 89 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:28:57pm |
re: #82 Slumbering Behemoth
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Who in their right mind would ever patronize a brothel run by g-men/women?
g-men/women?
| 91 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:07pm |
re: #87 Ringo the Gringo
Are you comparing a human fetus to a hemorrhoid?
Sorta depends on who the parents are...
| 92 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:23pm |
| 93 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:32pm |
re: #68 Enkidu90046
I think that is very very unfair to those who believe that abortion is the killing of human life.
It's quite fair - the criminalizing of abortion would permit the state to dictate how a woman can control her body. People who want abortion outlawed are in favor of this by default, but I've yet to hear such "pro-lifers" admit it but who knows, maybe the pro-birthers out there will surprise me.
| 94 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:44pm |
Oppose abortion in a speech and followed up by opposition to public assistance, welfare, Medicaid, funding for prenatal care, preschool, etc. Fascinating how the "family values" utopia works.
| 95 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:51pm |
Oh America - what is the matter with all these people? What the feck are they doing to you?
Mind control experiment gone wrong?
HAARPA?
Really - I fear that all this will end in a lot of tears!
| 96 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:53pm |
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:30:54pm |
re: #16 jaunte
Adoption would save more of the people she's concerned about.
Maybe she should adopt.
Perhaps she has, I have no idea. Very pretty young woman. Odd ideas.
| 98 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:31:26pm |
re: #70 Sharmuta
I'm disturbed this was the best "solution" to the issue this young woman could muster. Obviously her idea will never happen, but real ideas are likely not the ones "Value Voters" are interested in hearing.
These are the same "values voters" who were cheering about the monkey comment that Charles posted last night.
I don't know what "values" these voters have - but they sure as hell aren't mine.
| 99 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:31:37pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
I think we've found our lowest karma comment of the day. This one may break the Annefrance record.
| 100 |
Mr Pancakes Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:04pm |
re: #56 Slumbering Behemoth
You guessed correctly. It is the only old school Christmas song from FEAR that I am aware of.
re: #56 Slumbering Behemoth
You guessed correctly. It is the only old school Christmas song from FEAR that I am aware of.
Fear the Record was one of my fav punk albums in the day!
Check out MD.45 sometime.
MD (Backwards for Dave Mustaine of Megadeth) 45 ("LV" Lee Ving in Roman numerals)...
Rumor has it metal-head and veteran punker did not hit it off through the recordings.
| 101 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:08pm |
re: #86 ~Fianna
What??? Do you even have an explanation for that statement or are you just insane?
He can't answer. Charles banned his ass.
| 102 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:17pm |
re: #68 Enkidu90046
I think that is very very unfair to those who believe that abortion is the killing of human life.
As someone who doesn't agree with abortion, I have to respectfully disagree. A woman has sex, a woman gets pregnant and a woman has the option to terminate that pregnancy. The fact is that all three are legal in this country regardless of how people feel about the law or how they feel about when life begins. All humans have free will and regardless of what anyone (Christians and abortion foes included) thinks, that free will is a special gift that no government should ever take away. Abortion may be repulsive to some or a matter of choice to others but I firmly believe removing the right of a woman to chose what to do with her body is a very slippery slope and one that we don't want to go down. Ending abortion boils down to legislating morality which is never a good idea. I may not like abortion but it's the law and it is also a choice between the woman and her doctor.
| 103 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:50pm |
re: #87 Ringo the Gringo
Are you comparing a human fetus to a hemorrhoid?
No. I'm saying medical procedures are a personal matter.
| 104 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:55pm |
re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist
Perhaps she has, I have no idea. Very pretty young woman. Odd ideas.
I think she's too devoted to this career right now to have a family:
[Link: www.cmgbooking.com...]
| 105 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:32:56pm |
Here is a video where Lila Rose discusses how she went underground to expose Planned Parenthood employees conspiring to help her cover up Statutory Rape crimes by changing her birthdate.
I give her credit for that. Think whatever you may think about abortion rights. But when a 15 year old goes into an abortion clinic with a story that her 23 year old boyfriend got her pregnant, any decent person would reach for the phone to call the police. Not coach her how to lie on the form to avoid police scrutiny.
| 106 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:33:32pm |
re: #89 albusteve
g-men/women?
Government men/women. Certainly you've heard the phrase "G-man" before, usually referring to federal agents. I was using the term very loosely.
| 107 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:33:52pm |
re: #94 Gus 802
Oppose abortion in a speech and followed up by opposition to public assistance, welfare, Medicaid, funding for prenatal care, preschool, etc. Fascinating how the "family values" utopia works.
Also amazing that these people are also against birth control and sex education.
Because people are just going to stop having sex because they say so. Right?
| 108 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:33:55pm |
re: #23 Dekar
Yea, the birth of life is also beautiful. We should hire midwives to work on the streets!
Please note, if Planned Parenthood goes open air, I am going to have issues. The guy outside my local clinic screaming 'spare your child!' is scary enough, but I have never had to actually get a Pap smear in his presence.
| 109 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:34:35pm |
re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth
Government men/women. Certainly you've heard the phrase "G-man" before, usually referring to federal agents. I was using the term very loosely.
I was asking if they would be clients...sorta like legislators eating bean soup
| 110 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:34:39pm |
"Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in."
— Mark Twain
| 111 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:34:41pm |
re: #107 ~Fianna
Also amazing that these people are also against birth control and sex education.
Because people are just going to stop having sex because they say so. Right?
Right, and one day we'll see flying pigs too.
| 112 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:35:05pm |
re: #102 Jetpilot1101
I don't entirely agree, but I agree in parts and I'm updinging you for a well-reasoned and logical argument.
| 113 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:35:14pm |
re: #101 Dark_Falcon
He can't answer. Charles banned his ass.
I know, which is somewhat unfortunate. I'd love to hear how s/he gets to prostitution.
It's sort of like a conspiracy theory - they're all stupid, but they're fun to hear about.
| 114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:35:39pm |
re: #25 jamgarr
While I thank you for your comment I should point out that you do not disagree with me. I'm sure you agree that abortion is the killing of a baby but you believe that other issue(s) are more important. E.g. "right to choose".
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would say that I, in fact, do not 'agree'. I think you're not able to imagine that anyone truly sees this differently.
| 115 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:01pm |
re: #87 Ringo the Gringo
Are you comparing a human fetus to a hemorrhoid?
Of course that's not the point of the post. The point is that doing any medical procedure in the public square is an infraction of human dignity and an invasion of privacy. So how could this person advocate it for abortions?
| 116 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:02pm |
Lila Rose is also a liar for Jesus.
[Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]
| 117 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:15pm |
re: #93 eclectic infidel
It's quite fair - the criminalizing of abortion would permit the state to dictate how a woman can control her body. People who want abortion outlawed are in favor of this by default, but I've yet to hear such "pro-lifers" admit it but who knows, maybe the pro-birthers out there will surprise me.
If you believe that a fetus or an embryo is a human being vested with the same rights as a human baby that has been born, outlawing abortion is not about limiting a woman's right to control her body so much as it is about protecting a human life from being destroyed. Why is it so hard for people to understand how people can believe something different than they do without demonizing them for having such beliefs are ascribing to them evil motives?
As I have mentioned, I am very pro-choice... but I also understand why people are pro-life and do not demonize those who believe that way and accuse them of hating women (unless they deserve it). Being pro-life does not equal being anti-woman and wanting to control women.
| 118 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:33pm |
re: #102 Jetpilot1101
Don't most laws tell people what they can and can't do?
| 119 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:35pm |
re: #107 ~Fianna
Also amazing that these people are also against birth control and sex education.
Because people are just going to stop having sex because they say so. Right?
I forgot those two. The abstinence only idea doesn't work. But that is part of their ideology: to oppose sex education and birth control. Not only do they think people will stop having sex "because they told them to" but many believe that they will "start having sex" because of sex education.
| 120 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:43pm |
re: #105 Mich-again
Here is a video where Lila Rose discusses how she went underground to expose Planned Parenthood employees conspiring to help her cover up Statutory Rape crimes by changing her birthdate.
I give her credit for that. Think whatever you may think about abortion rights. But when a 15 year old goes into an abortion clinic with a story that her 23 year old boyfriend got her pregnant, any decent person would reach for the phone to call the police. Not coach her how to lie on the form to avoid police scrutiny.
Because what a girl needs when she's already in a rough spot is to have her boyfriend arrested. That'll help more girls get medical care.
| 121 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:36:46pm |
re: #110 Killgore Trout
— Mark Twain
uh oh...yesterday it was established that Twain was a racist...maybe he went up for review when his time came
| 122 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:02pm |
re: #100 Mr Pancakes
Awesome. Thanks for the link, never heard that.
| 123 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:10pm |
re: #27 Enkidu90046
Just think, couples could conceive and then get an abortion in the same public square! Very convenient!
Can we set up a condom machine in this public square? It might cut down on the number of abortions being performed there.
/God this is disturbing.
| 124 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:10pm |
re: #105 Mich-again
Agreed, but she's still not someone I'd stand beside. She taints things associated with her because she's bark-at-the-moon crazy.
| 125 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:29pm |
re: #116 Thanos
Lila Rose is also a liar for Jesus.
[Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]
And yet, people who should know better continue to swallow this garbage.
| 126 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:30pm |
re: #84 erraticsphinx
Another fanatic who has women issues, not abortion issues, IMO.
Indeed- women are just as capable of misogyny as men are, and Miss Lila seems to be one of them. They want to go back to the mind set of women being beholden to their biology. A woman's role is nothing more than a glorified puppy mill to these types.
| 127 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:48pm |
re: #105 Mich-again
I don't think that's so nice. It has a very "lying for Jesus" type feel for it.
And more importantly, it helps absolutely no one except the fanatic's own egos.
And it's reinforcing in my mind that for this particular person, it's ALL about the horrible no good premarital sex, not the abortion itself.
| 128 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:37:55pm |
re: #29 bosforus
Some might argue that colonoscopies are a beautiful thing...
They save lives! Who wouldn't want to watch a life being saved?
| 129 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:38:01pm |
Looking at her home, Orange County, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that she's somehow affiliated with Ahmanson or one of his front groups.
| 130 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:38:14pm |
Government is also schizophrenic in the way it deals with things.
Medicaid in some states covered abortion, but not birth control.
| 132 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:38:42pm |
re: #119 Gus 802
I forgot those two. The abstinence only idea doesn't work. But that is part of their ideology: to oppose sex education and birth control. Not only do they think people will stop having sex "because they told them to" but many believe that they will "start having sex" because of sex education.
And then they get to the old saw about how women who "do it" are tramps who deserve whatever it is that they're arguing against.
| 133 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:38:43pm |
re: #102 Jetpilot1101
Ending abortion boils down to legislating morality which is never a good idea.
I hear this all the time... but most of our criminal code IS about legislating morality.
| 134 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:38:55pm |
Advice for everyone here. Do not google this topic in any way. Especially do not go to images. There are a lot of sites willing to make their point in very disturbing ways.
| 135 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:30pm |
Value Voters: Keeping things classy since 1992...
So should we also conduct executions in the town square as well?
Oh... right... we only care about the sanctity of life before birth...
| 136 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:36pm |
re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist
Can we set up a condom machine in this public square? It might cut down on the number of abortions being performed there.
/God this is disturbing.
Condoms? The Pope told us that these are the evildoing!
| 137 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:38pm |
Lila Rose is making a pretty good living for a 20 year old. Earlier this year, she received $50,000 in the Gerard Health Foundation's Life Prizes awards.
| 138 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:39pm |
re: #31 bosforus
They've got a festival like that in San Francisco, don't they? Once a year out on the streets IIRC.
People getting pregnant au plein air? Not that I've ever heard of, although I suspect it does happen occasionally at some of the music festivals. It gets foggy in SF. You have to crawl under the blanket...it goes from there.
| 139 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:42pm |
re: #118 bosforus
Don't most laws tell people what they can and can't do?
Yes they do but most laws are also about protecting the greater good in that they protect the rest of us from other people. Murder, for example, affects not only the killer but the victim and hence there is a law against it. Abortion really only affects the woman having the procedure performed. If the lady next door to me has an abortion, it doesn't affect me one iota on a societal level.
| 141 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:48pm |
re: #132 ~Fianna
And then they get to the old saw about how women who "do it" are tramps who deserve whatever it is that they're arguing against.
Effectively recreating a caste system.
| 142 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:39:57pm |
Doing things in the public square is a Muslim thing, young lady.
If you're comfortable with that, how about public switch-beatings while James "Depends" Dobson wets his diapers to the sight and sound of firm young childflesh being chastised in the name o' Gawd for the sin of being "strong-willed"?
You could sell tickets to NAMBLA.
And angels would sing Leviticus.
| 143 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:15pm |
re: #116 Thanos
Lila Rose is also a liar for Jesus.
[Link: www.rhrealitycheck.org...]
Thanos - good article and thanks for the inadvertent reminder (I used to read this site then lost track of it over time).
| 144 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:28pm |
Do these "sting" techniques seem familiar? Seen a bit of it lately? Remind you of the slimy local TV station slime at CBS etc where they try to set up cops and others?
| 145 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:37pm |
re: #134 cliffster
Advice for everyone here. Do not google this topic in any way. Especially do not go to images. There are a lot of sites willing to make their point in very disturbing ways.
Maybe filter programs could block them for being Shock sites.
| 146 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:37pm |
re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist
They save lives! Who wouldn't want to watch a life being saved?
Yeah...and on the other hand they will shot others in churches for that...
| 147 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:39pm |
re: #139 Jetpilot1101
Abortion really only affects the woman having the procedure performed. If the lady next door to me has an abortion, it doesn't affect me one iota on a societal level.
It affects the aborted quite significantly.
| 148 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:40:44pm |
re: #109 albusteve
I was asking if they would be clients...sorta like legislators eating bean soup
Oh, no. We were discussing the IRS take over of a Nevada brothel, and how the gov't agency ran it into bankruptcy.
I was making a semi-sarcastic remark about it.
| 149 |
researchok Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:41:23pm |
Until we have in place a system where unwanted children can be taken care of, provided and cared for, abortion will be a necessary reality.
There is a lot of talk about the immorality of abortion- sentiments much of which I find myself in agreement. That said, I'd like to hear talk about the morality of of having a plan to take care of those unwanted children before we tale the abortion debate any further.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:41:39pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
The sad note is that the lack of shame has left us with speakers making statements like this for some sort of shock value.
Too bad a more thoughtful statement will do nothing as well to stop needless abortions.
At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
What the hell?
| 151 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:41:40pm |
re: #148 Slumbering Behemoth
Oh, no. We were discussing the IRS take over of a Nevada brothel, and how the gov't agency ran it into bankruptcy.
I was making a semi-sarcastic remark about it.
Proof that the government knows jack about getting screwed, but plenty about doing the screwing.
| 152 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:41:45pm |
re: #141 Gus 802
Effectively recreating a caste system.
Yup.
Have you seen the exceptionally creepy arguments against abortion that stem from nativism? It's right out of the Nazi/Fascist songbook.
| 153 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:06pm |
It looks like most people are on the fence on this subject.
| 154 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:18pm |
| 155 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:27pm |
re: #153 rwmofo
It looks like most people are on the fence on this subject.
On abortions in the town square? I don't think so...
| 156 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:35pm |
re: #139 Jetpilot1101
Yes they do but most laws are also about protecting the greater good in that they protect the rest of us from other people. Murder, for example, affects not only the killer but the victim and hence there is a law against it. Abortion really only affects the woman having the procedure performed. If the lady next door to me has an abortion, it doesn't affect me one iota on a societal level.
Playing Devil's advocate, the pro-life folks think of the baby as the victim.
| 157 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:40pm |
re: #120 ~Fianna
Test the logic by applying an example..
What about a 12 year old girl with a 30 year old boyfriend? Would that still be OK? Of course not.
Look. I think people who are employed to advise people in desperate situations should refrain from advising them to lie to avoid legal repercussions. Duh.
| 158 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:44pm |
re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist
Here's what I was thinking of:
Probably NSFW
[Link: folsomstreetfair.org...]
| 159 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:42:56pm |
re: #149 researchok
Until we have in place a system where unwanted children can be taken care of, provided and cared for, abortion will be a necessary reality.
There is a lot of talk about the immorality of abortion- sentiments much of which I find myself in agreement. That said, I'd like to hear talk about the morality of of having a plan to take care of those unwanted children before we tale the abortion debate any further.
That's the real problem. No child should be unwanted. People should take responsibility for their actions prior.
| 160 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:43:13pm |
re: #148 Slumbering Behemoth
Oh, no. We were discussing the IRS take over of a Nevada brothel, and how the gov't agency ran it into bankruptcy.
I was making a semi-sarcastic remark about it.
and I was suggesting that a govt run business would attract govt employees
| 162 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:43:33pm |
re: #153 rwmofo
It looks like most people are on the fence on this subject.
On the fence throwing rocks at these morons.
Abortions is a public place? Are you freaking kidding me?
| 163 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:43:38pm |
re: #156 Dar ul Harbarian
Playing Devil's advocate, the pro-life folks think of the baby as the victim.
But most of them don't want to raise the baby.
| 164 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:43:57pm |
re: #139 Jetpilot1101
Yes they do but most laws are also about protecting the greater good in that they protect the rest of us from other people. Murder, for example, affects not only the killer but the victim and hence there is a law against it. Abortion really only affects the woman having the procedure performed. If the lady next door to me has an abortion, it doesn't affect me one iota on a societal level.
Not if you believe that the fetus is a human baby... and that is what the pro-life movement believes.
| 165 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:43:57pm |
re: #121 albusteve
uh oh...yesterday it was established that Twain was a racist...maybe he went up for review when his time came
I'd rather burn for eternity with Twain, Hendrix and Ben Franklin rather than spend 20 minutes playing harp music with Jerry Falwell.
| 166 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:02pm |
re: #70 Sharmuta
I'm disturbed this was the best "solution" to the issue this young woman could muster. Obviously her idea will never happen, but real ideas are likely not the ones "Value Voters" are interested in hearing.
How about supporting women's clinics where low income women can get help with birth control? How about fixing adoption laws so more women in crisis pregnancies can get the help they need and couples who want to adopt can have the family they so seek? How about education that helps both girls and boys better understand the impact of unprotected sex, and the economic impact of teenage pregnancies?
She didn't advocate for any of these life affirming, moderate proposals- and I have to wonder why. Instead, she proposes humiliating women in the public square. The only thing I can conclude is that these folks don't want women to have better access to birth control or sexual education because they don't think a woman should have that level of control over her own body- in having sex in the first place, or controlling their cycle. It's the antithesis of feminism, and I simply cannot go along with it.
Oh, please Sharmuta, don't be reasonable!
After all you do the work of Satan or something for not supporting the "FACT" that sentient life begins at orgasm.
/ (must I?)
| 167 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:14pm |
re: #152 ~Fianna
Yup.
Have you seen the exceptionally creepy arguments against abortion that stem from nativism? It's right out of the Nazi/Fascist songbook.
I haven't. Does it include a form of Medieval public shame? That's what I think is behind the words on this video. Has nothing to do with angels and such. There's something more deeply sinister.
| 168 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:20pm |
re: #82 Slumbering Behemoth
I said it before and I'll say it again:
Who in their right mind would ever patronize a brothel run by g-men/women?
I know some guys who would go if the G-Women would agree to handcuff them.
/
| 169 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:45pm |
re: #66 Racer X
What about all the teenage daughters of conservatives? Do we really want to shame them in the public square?
Depends. Are they cute?
| 170 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:49pm |
re: #147 bosforus
It affects the aborted quite significantly.
It certainly does but now we are delving into what people believe versus what can be scientifically proven. If you believe abortion removes a clump of cells then it's no more immoral then having a tumor removed. On the other hand, if you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is a heinous sin. The point is, until there is difinitive proof one way or the other, the procedure of abortion boils down to a woman's choice and her beliefs. What you or I belive is completely immaterial to her decision to terminate her pregnancy.
| 171 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:51pm |
re: #132 ~Fianna
And then they get to the old saw about how women who "do it" are tramps who deserve whatever it is that they're arguing against.
And how misogynistic is that?
| 172 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:44:58pm |
re: #159 acwgusa
That's the real problem. No child should be unwanted. People should take responsibility for their actions prior.
The lowest divorce rate in America: Massachusetts.
The highest divorce rate in America: Alaska
Who are the values voters?
| 173 |
albusteve Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:45:04pm |
re: #165 Killgore Trout
I'd rather burn for eternity with Twain, Hendrix and Ben Franklin rather than spend 20 minutes playing harp music with Jerry Falwell.
hahaha!...feeling better?...see you there amigo
| 174 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:45:18pm |
WTF?! you want us to be like the Saudis?
| 175 |
Enkidu90046 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:45:44pm |
re: #156 Dar ul Harbarian
Playing Devil's advocate, the pro-life folks think of the baby as the victim.
Bingo.
| 176 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:45:46pm |
re: #157 Mich-again
Test the logic by applying an example..
What about a 12 year old girl with a 30 year old boyfriend? Would that still be OK? Of course not.
Look. I think people who are employed to advise people in desperate situations should refrain from advising them to lie to avoid legal repercussions. Duh.
What about the 15-year-old-girl with an 18-year-old boyfriend?
It's insane to expect clinics to be the police. And generally, girls who have boyfriends more than twice their age when they're teenagers have more problems than the age of their boyfriend. Arresting the guy isn't going to do anything to change the circumstances, and the most important thing that the clinic worker can do is to be a resource for the girl, not a snitch for the cops.
| 177 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:45:49pm |
re: #87 Ringo the Gringo
Are you comparing a human fetus to a hemorrhoid?
I think the point is that intimate medical procedures should maybe be performed in private, as is traditional in most Western cultures.
| 178 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:46:10pm |
re: #172 Cineaste
The lowest divorce rate in America: Massachusetts.
The highest divorce rate in America: Alaska
Who are the values voters?
Divorce does not equate with unwanted children. Divorce is the parent's issue. Blaming the child for a divorce is the coward's method.
| 179 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:46:38pm |
re: #165 Killgore Trout
I'd rather burn for eternity with Twain, Hendrix and Ben Franklin rather than spend 20 minutes playing harp music with Jerry Falwell.
If that's the case, then you can be sure hell would be custom designed for you as a place where you would play harp music with Jerry Falwell for eternity.
/
| 180 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:46:50pm |
re: #173 albusteve
I'm lloking forward to seeing the doc tomorrow. I feel like shit.
| 181 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:05pm |
re: #70 Sharmuta
I'm disturbed this was the best "solution" to the issue this young woman could muster. Obviously her idea will never happen, but real ideas are likely not the ones "Value Voters" are interested in hearing.
How about supporting women's clinics where low income women can get help with birth control? How about fixing adoption laws so more women in crisis pregnancies can get the help they need and couples who want to adopt can have the family they so seek? How about education that helps both girls and boys better understand the impact of unprotected sex, and the economic impact of teenage pregnancies?
She didn't advocate for any of these life affirming, moderate proposals- and I have to wonder why. Instead, she proposes humiliating women in the public square. The only thing I can conclude is that these folks don't want women to have better access to birth control or sexual education because they don't think a woman should have that level of control over her own body- in having sex in the first place, or controlling their cycle. It's the antithesis of feminism, and I simply cannot go along with it.
I think in part that Ms. Rose is concerned about the long term impact of all the abortions being performed. Granting that abortion must remain a woman's right, isn't it maybe a crying shame that so many promising fetuses don't make it to birth? The birth rate across the gamut of advanced and free societies is below replacement. Outside of the U.S., it's far below replacement. Trying to change this by force of law is ethically unsound and politically impossible, but efforts to change it by persuasion are legitimate.
Bristol Palin went ahead and had her baby. Now she'll have a hard life, but her baby will have a life. It's not fair how she was derided for having gone ahead with the pregnancy and delivery. The right to choose includes the right to not abort, after all.
| 182 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:13pm |
re: #72 Racer X
They ran it into bankruptcy.
They sold liquor and hookers and still could not make a profit. Imagine what they will do next.
Just wait until they try to socialize sex. They'll start by taxing it...
| 183 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:14pm |
| 184 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:22pm |
re: #180 Killgore Trout
I'm lloking forward to seeing the doc tomorrow. I feel like shit.
Hope you feel better. Stomach flu, right? Stay well.
| 185 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:28pm |
re: #157 Mich-again
Test the logic by applying an example..
What about a 12 year old girl with a 30 year old boyfriend? Would that still be OK? Of course not.
Look. I think people who are employed to advise people in desperate situations should refrain from advising them to lie to avoid legal repercussions. Duh.
I'm over on the right, but don't think that the government should force a woman to have a baby she doesn't want.
However, parental notification will catch some child predators. These are creeps who can't get a date with an adult, so they prey on children.
I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me.
| 186 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:28pm |
re: #167 Gus 802
I haven't. Does it include a form of Medieval public shame? That's what I think is behind the words on this video. Has nothing to do with angels and such. There's something more deeply sinister.
The argument usually runs along the line that we need to ban abortion because too many white babies are being aborted which is making America a third-world country.
| 187 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:43pm |
re: #178 acwgusa
Divorce does not equate with unwanted children. Divorce is the parent's issue. Blaming the child for a divorce is the coward's method.
Perhaps you misunderstood - I'm not saying the child is the cause of divorce but when the people who are screaming about how best to run your life can't seem to run their own very well I am left feeling like it's a Glass Houses situation...
This wasn't necessarily directed to you, I was jumping off of your statement, not countering - sorry for any confusion.
| 188 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:47:43pm |
re: #117 Enkidu90046
If you believe that a fetus or an embryo is a human being vested with the same rights as a human baby that has been born,
I don't believe that, actually.
| 189 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:13pm |
re: #162 Racer X
On the fence throwing rocks at these morons.
Abortions is a public place? Are you freaking kidding me?
Yes.
| 190 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:16pm |
re: #160 albusteve
I must have clipped my hair to short, 'cuz that went right over my head the first time. Thanks for the explanation.
Hmmm... would make a great hiring incentive.
| 191 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:26pm |
re: #170 Jetpilot1101
I don't disagree with that. But I don't see how that same logic doesn't also justify something like a group suicide as being ethically OK because everyone agrees that it's the right thing to do. It just doesn't sit right with me.
| 192 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:30pm |
re: #139 Jetpilot1101
Yes they do but most laws are also about protecting the greater good in that they protect the rest of us from other people. Murder, for example, affects not only the killer but the victim and hence there is a law against it. Abortion really only affects the woman having the procedure performed. If the lady next door to me has an abortion, it doesn't affect me one iota on a societal level.
Laws here are supposed to be about protecting people's rights. Murder is wrong because it invades someone's rights, in quite the ultimate way. I scratch my head at the statement, "Murder.. affects not only the killer but the victim". Yes, the victim is the point. At some point, what was a zygote transitions into a baby, and at that point you shouldn't kill it. This is an incredibly important discussion to have. But because of idiots like the one in this article, everyone is polarized and people are only concerned with "slippery slopes", on either side of the discussion.
| 193 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:31pm |
re: #171 Sharmuta
And how misogynistic is that?
The extreme right is about as misogynistic as it can be without mentioning the word 'burka'.
| 194 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:48:41pm |
re: #183 Dar ul Harbarian
I think if everyone who was pro-life made an effort to adopt the children who were waiting for adoption, there would be no more children waiting for adoption. People are very picky, however, about what they will accept.
| 195 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:04pm |
re: #170 Jetpilot1101
It certainly does but now we are delving into what people believe versus what can be scientifically proven. If you believe abortion removes a clump of cells then it's no more immoral then having a tumor removed. On the other hand, if you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is a heinous sin. The point is, until there is difinitive proof one way or the other, the procedure of abortion boils down to a woman's choice and her beliefs. What you or I belive is completely immaterial to her decision to terminate her pregnancy.
Life does begin at conception. It is a scientific fact.
| 196 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:05pm |
re: #187 Cineaste
Perhaps you misunderstood - I'm not saying the child is the cause of divorce but when the people who are screaming about how best to run your life can't seem to run their own very well I am left feeling like it's a Glass Houses situation...
This wasn't necessarily directed to you, I was jumping off of your statement, not countering - sorry for any confusion.
It did seem kind of strange to me. I did misread it.
| 197 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:09pm |
I would like to see this woman be psycho-analyzed in a public square
| 198 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:09pm |
re: #180 Killgore Trout
I'm lloking forward to seeing the doc tomorrow. I feel like shit.
Hope you get better. If it's stomach, you could try my method for killing stomach bugs. Brush your teeth and swallow instead of spitting it out. Flouride kills lots of microscopic nasties.
(((warning: I am not a doctor, if you take medical sounding advice from me you are probably certifiable. )))
| 199 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:12pm |
re: #186 ~Fianna
The argument usually runs along the line that we need to ban abortion because too many white babies are being aborted which is making America a third-world country.
Is the abortion rate higher among whites than minorities?
| 200 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:37pm |
re: #196 acwgusa
It did seem kind of strange to me. I did misread it.
No worries - again, sorry for the confusion.
| 201 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:49:41pm |
The desire to control female sexuality is no different than what we see with fundamental islam. I could argue these Americans are almost worse in that at least with islam you can see the burqa. These fundamentalist Christian patriarchy types would shroud women with an invisible one.
| 202 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:25pm |
re: #172 Cineaste
The lowest divorce rate in America: Massachusetts.
The highest divorce rate in America: Alaska
Who are the values voters?
Divorce law varies from state to state, being more difficult in some states than in others... So you cannot simply compare rates without taking various factors into account.
(One of my friends got divorced recently, and found out that Maryland was not a good state to do it in.)
| 203 |
jorline Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:32pm |
re: #186 ~Fianna
The argument usually runs along the line that we need to ban abortion because too many white babies are being aborted which is making America a third-world country.
WTF
That's a new one for me.
| 204 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:33pm |
re: #186 ~Fianna
The argument usually runs along the line that we need to ban abortion because too many white babies are being aborted which is making America a third-world country.
Oh, there would be that wouldn't there. Yikes.
| 205 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:37pm |
| 207 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:42pm |
As usual, as soon as a new post goes up, the flouncers come out in the old threads.
| 208 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:53pm |
re: #193 ~Fianna
The extreme right is about as misogynistic as it can be without mentioning the word 'burka'.
We are on the same wave length. To hell with the invisible burqa!
| 209 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:50:57pm |
re: #195 Dar ul Harbarian
Life does begin at conception. It is a scientific fact.
How are you defining life?
| 210 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:51:02pm |
re: #195 Dar ul Harbarian
Life does begin at conception. It is a scientific fact.
Could you please provide a link to that study?
| 211 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:51:09pm |
This may come as a shocker BTW, but after reading that article, the primary concern of a clinic worker towards an frightened 14 year old girl is towards the girl. If the girl thinks that she will get her BF into trouble and then not come in, then the clinic can not help her.
It is because of these things that there are such things as doctor patient privilege. Only the most whacko of the right wing would think that it is an issue that the clinic did not rush to report her imaginary over aged BF over a phone conversation. Rather, they would likely try to counsel her to change her situation at a minimum and or go to the cops, once trust had been established - rather than scaring a poor girl off.
In the mean time this woman took half an hour pulling the heart strings of someone who wants to help young women in trouble and took that clinician away from someone who needed help.
This woman is despicable.
| 212 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:51:21pm |
re: #194 jaunte
I think if everyone who was pro-life made an effort to adopt the children who were waiting for adoption, there would be no more children waiting for adoption. People are very picky, however, about what they will accept.
I am no authority on adoption but I have known many couples who have waited a long time for a child from some foriegn land. I really doubt your point is accurate. There must be some sort of legal stumbling block.
| 214 |
Cineaste Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:51:41pm |
re: #202 JamesTKirk
Divorce law varies from state to state, being more difficult in some states than in others... So you cannot simply compare rates without taking various factors into account.
(One of my friends got divorced recently, and found out that Maryland was not a good state to do it in.)
Fair enough - I also need to make a correction - highest rate is Nevada but, because of the ease of marriage there I feel like it marks a statistical anomaly.
| 216 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:51:57pm |
re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth
Government men/women. Certainly you've heard the phrase "G-man" before, usually referring to federal agents. I was using the term very loosely.
I usually only hear that term in connection with Elliot Ness. I didn't know people still used it.
| 218 |
Kragar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:52:29pm |
Abortions need to be a legal option for any women who needs one. People who feel abortions are wrong would be doing a lot more good by providing other options and educating people about them rather than trying to attack the issue of abortion.
| 221 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:53:11pm |
re: #195 Dar ul Harbarian
Life does begin at conception. It is a scientific fact.
But not sentient life. That too is a scientific fact and the crux of the debate.
For that matter sperm are alive too and so are ova, but gametes are not people either.
As a very simple thought question, is someone who is brain dead alive? Turn it around, is a fetus, who has yet to grow a brain a person in the same sense given that we consider brain dead to be dead?
| 222 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:53:17pm |
re: #176 ~Fianna
What about the 15-year-old-girl with an 18-year-old boyfriend?
PP should not be advising anyone how to break laws. If you don't like a law by all means go out and help elect politicians who will change those laws. But if you think that its best to circumvent the laws, then don't complain when people who disagree with you work to circumvent laws in a way you don't approve of.
| 223 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:53:18pm |
| 224 |
Ben Hur Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:53:35pm |
I'd like to see safe sex practiced in the public square and hear Victoria's Secret Angels sing.
| 225 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:54:25pm |
More drooling insanity from the religious right:
Genesis: Real, Reliable, Historical (Google cache)
Many sincere Christians who believe the Bible do not know what their pastors believe about the historicity of Genesis. Is it safe to assume that these believe in the following truths?
God created everything in six 24-hour days.
Adam and Eve were real people.
God cursed a perfect world as a judgment for sin.
Noah constructed an Ark by which two of every kind of air-breathing, land-dwelling animal were saved along with Noah's family from a global flood.
The confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel produced the language groups that are found around the world today.An alarming number of Christian leaders and teachers instead believe that God "created" through evolutionary processes over millions of years, that Adam and Eve descended from a hominid population, and that there has never been a global flood, suggesting that the account of Noah and the Ark is a story adapted from a Babylonian myth.
Oh noes! It's a scandal! The ICR has discovered there might be Christians and even pastors who are not lying purveyors of commercial superstition!
Btw, though still evil, Google has a nifty graphic in honor of HG Wells's birthday (September 21st 1866).
| 226 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:54:42pm |
re: #199 pianobuff
Is the abortion rate higher among whites than minorities?
I actually don't know. I never gave the argument enough credence to look at it.
Birth rates of the American born in the US are absolutely lower than the birthrates of recent immigrants. That levels off after (IIRC) the second-generation. Generally birth rates correlate negatively with income and education rates so, that makes sense. New immigrants are going to follow the patterns of their home cultures, but after a few generations, the family has "Americanized" and opportunities to pursue education and job opportunities delay marriage and child birth.
| 227 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:54:47pm |
re: #212 Dar ul Harbarian
In my experience (4 adoptions)the cost of adopting a healthy white infant domestically is about six times the cost of adopting an older child, a sick child, or a non-white child. People go overseas to avoid legal issues, but there are states whose laws encourage adopting without entanglements.
| 228 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:54:52pm |
| 229 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:54:56pm |
re: #206 steve_poling
9 posts in 5 years, then pops up to say please ban me.
Dude, exercise some self control. Don't post, don't read the posts, and delete the bookmark if LGF is not your cup of tea.
Asking daddy to ban you just makes you look weak, and unable to control your own destiny. You want Charles to do it for you.
I see he has obliged.
| 230 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:55:08pm |
It comes down to the very simple fact that abortion is going to happen, period, regardless of whether or not is is legal or illegal.
I'd prefer it not happen, but if its going to be legal, I'd prefer the woman have the choice to have it in a sterile, hospital environment, rather then a back alley where the mother could bleed to death.
I'd also prefer the state medicaid cover it, as it now is being used as form of birth control.
| 231 |
Dekar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:55:16pm |
re: #224 Ben Hur
I'd like to see safe sex practiced in the public square and hear Victoria's Secret Angels sing.
High five!
| 232 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:55:27pm |
| 233 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:55:52pm |
I'll state for the record that I am a pro-lifer who does NOT support a ban on abortions. I do NOT support controlling women like this. I favor women being in control, complete control, of their bodies. I long for the day all babies are wanted. These people are not about supporting women, but rather controlling them. They don't give a damn what happens to these babies after they're born. And that's about as disgusting a stance on Life as I can imagine.
| 234 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:55:53pm |
re: #230 acwgusa
It comes down to the very simple fact that abortion is going to happen, period, regardless of whether or not is is legal or illegal.
I'd prefer it not happen, but if its going to be legal, I'd prefer the woman have the choice to have it in a sterile, hospital environment, rather then a back alley where the mother could bleed to death.
I'd also prefer the state medicaid cover it, as it now is being used as form of birth control.
Whoops. That line should be state medicaid NOT cover it.
| 235 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:56:07pm |
re: #203 jorline
WTF
That's a new one for me.
I hear it a lot here. Vegas has a huge Mexican population and unfortunately also a huge and vocal anti-Mexican contingent.
| 236 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:56:28pm |
re: #185 rwmofo
However, parental notification will catch some child predators. These are creeps who can't get a date with an adult, so they prey on children.
I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me.
Unfortunately, some of those creeps also happen to be parent that would be notified. Parental notification makes sense on the surface to most, because most of us would never dream of raping/molesting our own children.
Sadly, some people out there think nothing of it.
| 237 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:56:40pm |
re: #183 Dar ul Harbarian
Adoption.
Almost impossible with all the laws and hurdles that have been put into place in the last decades, which is why so many Americans adopt from Eastern Europe or China instead of America.
| 238 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:57:08pm |
It seems like there have been more flouncers here lately than fat guys at a buffet. I don't remember that many meltdowns six months or a year ago.
| 240 |
Kragar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:57:25pm |
I wonder if Charles actually made an automated account deletion function how many flouncers would use it as opposed to going out in a snit fit?
| 241 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:57:38pm |
re: #233 Sharmuta
I'll state for the record that I am a pro-lifer who does NOT support a ban on abortions. I do NOT support controlling women like this. I favor women being in control, complete control, of their bodies. I long for the day all babies are wanted. These people are not about supporting women, but rather controlling them. They don't give a damn what happens to these babies after they're born. And that's about as disgusting a stance on Life as I can imagine.
Sharm, thank you for so eloquently saying what I believe but thus far have failed to convey to the assembled crowd. I regret that I have but one upding to give you.
| 243 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:57:51pm |
re: #193 ~Fianna
The extreme right is about as misogynistic as it can be without mentioning the word 'burka'.
Funny, it's the people on the left who are always glorifying the burqa and how "liberating" it is.
| 244 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:03pm |
| 245 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:20pm |
re: #224 Ben Hur
I'd like to see safe sex practiced in the public square and hear Victoria's Secret Angels sing.
I bet you would perform safer serx with Victoria Secret Angels in the puplic square - singing! ;)
| 246 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:21pm |
re: #233 Sharmuta
I'll state for the record that I am a pro-lifer who does NOT support a ban on abortions. I do NOT support controlling women like this. I favor women being in control, complete control, of their bodies. I long for the day all babies are wanted. These people are not about supporting women, but rather controlling them. They don't give a damn what happens to these babies after they're born. And that's about as disgusting a stance on Life as I can imagine.
With agreement that people like the ones in this article are motivated by control, where do you draw the line on abortion? When is it too late to take the step of abortion?
| 247 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:23pm |
Speaking of the public square:
The "Christian" theocrats have long favored bringing back public executions.
Me, I'm for public-square tax audits of suspected cheats. That should draw the crowds...
| 248 |
researchok Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:35pm |
Before making abortion a clear moral argument, consider this:
There are people out there with terminal diseases or in dire need of organs. Despite the desperate situations and the pain and suffering some have to endure, we do not force anyone to donate their bone marrow or organs, even in the event of death. In not doing so, we condemn those people who are ill, to death. These individuals and unfortunates are innocent and defenseless. We do not mandate that like it or not, everyone must donate what may be lifesaving to another.
| 249 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:39pm |
re: #227 jaunte
In my experience (4 adoptions)the cost of adopting a healthy white infant domestically is about six times the cost of adopting an older child, a sick child, or a non-white child. People go overseas to avoid legal issues, but there are states whose laws encourage adopting without entanglements.
I was a supposedly sick (diagnosis was CP, but it never really manifested) white infant going on 2 before I was adopted. Had my parents not chosen me, chances are decent that I never would have been. It makes me grateful for them. It also makes me grateful that my natural mother (whom I will likely never know) did not choose an abortion.
| 250 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:40pm |
re: #221 ludwigvanquixote
But not sentient life. That too is a scientific fact and the crux of the debate.
For that matter sperm are alive too and so are ova, but gametes are not people either.
As a very simple thought question, is someone who is brain dead alive? Turn it around, is a fetus, who has yet to grow a brain a person in the same sense given that we consider brain dead to be dead?
Brain death is Death. The body will not survive brain death. It is an irreversible condition.
A fetus without a brain isn't the same thing. It has yet to complete its potential.
| 251 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:42pm |
re: #240 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
I wonder if Charles actually made an automated account deletion function how many flouncers would use it as opposed to going out in a snit fit?
None of them.
The point isn't to go out quietly, or they'd just stop logging in.
The point is to tell Daddy, "I hate you daddy!"
| 252 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:45pm |
re: #238 rwmofo
It seems like there have been more flouncers here lately than fat guys at a buffet. I don't remember that many meltdowns six months or a year ago.
There was a regular log-jam of them when Charles first went after the creationists. Good riddance.
| 253 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:58:55pm |
re: #224 Ben Hur
I'd like to see safe sex practiced in the public square and hear Victoria's Secret Angels sing.
Well...as long as it's safe.
| 254 |
Jetpilot1101 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:59:05pm |
re: #240 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
I wonder if Charles actually made an automated account deletion function how many flouncers would use it as opposed to going out in a snit fit?
I don't think they would use it because then they wouldn't be able to brag about their wonderful flounce on the stalker site.
| 255 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:59:14pm |
But it is increasingly clear that global warming is on hiatus for the time being. And that is not what the UN, the alarmist scientists or environmentalists predicted. For the past dozen years, since the Kyoto accords were signed in 1997, it has been beaten into our heads with the force and repetition of the rowing drum on a slave galley that the Earth is warming and will continue to warm rapidly through this century until we reach deadly temperatures around 2100.While they deny it now, the facts to the contrary are staring them in the face: None of the alarmist drummers ever predicted anything like a 30-year pause in their apocalyptic scenario.
Latif says he expects warming to resume in 2020 or 2030.
In the past year, two other groups of scientists--one in Germany, the second in the United States--have come to the same conclusion: Warming is on hold, likely because of a cooling of the Earth's upper oceans, but it will resume.
But how is that knowable? How can Latif and the others state with certainty that after this long and unforeseen cooling, dangerous man-made heating will resume? They failed to observe the current cooling for years after it had begun, how then can their predictions for the resumption of dangerous warming be trusted?
This is quoted from the science link in the top links panel. Now, the response: the cooling was unforeseen because who can predict a dry spell in sunspot activity? Our own activities are not the only thing that can affect the climate, after all.
Our activities are just the only thing that is always pushing in one direction. Sooner or later, this dry spell will end, and a new era of normal or even extra-active sunspots will come. And then, whenever it comes, we may expect to see temperatures regain the trend line they would have been on but for this solar-caused mitigating down-pulse.
| 256 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:59:20pm |
re: #240 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
I wonder if Charles actually made an automated account deletion function how many flouncers would use it as opposed to going out in a snit fit?
None. They already have the ability to not use their account.
| 257 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:59:36pm |
re: #237 JamesTKirk
Almost impossible with all the laws and hurdles that have been put into place in the last decades, which is why so many Americans adopt from Eastern Europe or China instead of America.
Yup. Very time absorbing and costly (had friends go through the process).
| 258 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:59:40pm |
| 259 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:06pm |
re: #243 JamesTKirk
Funny, it's the people on the left who are always glorifying the burqa and how "liberating" it is.
Huh?
| 260 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:15pm |
re: #251 Charles
This will be them 20 years down the road.
Daddy's Gone
He's gone, he's gone, he's gone, he's gone
Woah ooh ooh ooo!
| 261 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:39pm |
re: #247 Cato the Elder
Speaking of the public square:
The "Christian" theocrats have long favored bringing back public executions.
Me, I'm for public-square tax audits of suspected cheats. That should draw the crowds...
Are you kidding? There would be public suicides!
/Here in line 12, on the long form 1081b, you indicated that your lottery earnings were amortized over the fiscal year as interest accrued into an IRA...
/head hits desk, starts snoring.
| 262 |
Ben Hur Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:48pm |
| 263 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:50pm |
re: #247 Cato the Elder
Speaking of the public square:
The "Christian" theocrats have long favored bringing back public executions.
Me, I'm for public-square tax audits of suspected cheats. That should draw the crowds...
But, Cato, we could charge admission for executions. I don't think many knuckle-draggers would pay to watch an audit. If convicted tax cheats were hanged on the spot, we might be able to combine the two though.
| 264 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:51pm |
OT: Defenceman has a new post. He's dealing with Rodan, again. Check it out:
| 265 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:00:55pm |
OT.
My local emergency room now has an armed, uniformed city police officer as the official receptionist. No exaggeration.
And it made me feel better when I took my friend there Saturday night.
And it's reason no. 598,344 that I'm getting the hell out of this town.
| 266 |
theheat Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:01:42pm |
This little darling represents the all-so-familiar sadistic pro-life movement. These are the same people that make movies like Saw seem mainstream, they're so bent on fire-and-brimstone morality. (Which makes it even more delicious when so many of these holier-than-thou types get caught with their pants down, getting or giving clandestine BJs to people not their spouses, or are outed as closeted homosexuals, after a lifetime of loudly condemning the sexual behavior of others.)
I'm for keeping abortion safe, legal, and private. Pretty simple. But more than that, I want contraception to be cheap and available to anyone sexually active, without any stigma or embarrassment. I want contraception education, not just abstinence education, to be a fact of life before teens feel any stirring in their loins. Hell, put that shit on the backs of cereal boxes, if that's what it takes.
Preventing unwanted pregnancies means preventing abortions. That means one less cause for counterfeit harpy dumbasses like Lila Rose to shriek about. That's win/win for all of us.
| 267 |
Coracle Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:01:54pm |
re: #243 JamesTKirk
Funny, it's the people on the left who are always glorifying the burqa and how "liberating" it is.
Cite? But even with the link I'd caution you about the broad brush. And to never ever ever say "never" or "always".
| 268 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:01:57pm |
every time i talk abortion, i have to sing or think of this
[Link: www.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
| 269 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:02:16pm |
re: #249 pianobuff
I sincerely hope that more women choose the course your birthmother chose.
They do need to know that people are eager to adopt their baby; I try on these kinds of threads to encourage the pro-life advocates to take some action to help with that.
| 270 |
Kragar Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:02:19pm |
Graphic Video of a flouncer in action:
| 271 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:02:26pm |
| 272 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:02:29pm |
re: #240 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
I wonder if Charles actually made an automated account deletion function how many flouncers would use it as opposed to going out in a snit fit?
None. All they have to do is not come back. They flounce to try to make a point, get attention, piss off Charles, say "good bye", say "good riddance", say "my hovercraft is full of eels", or whatever. (Hard to say, since they're usually deleted before I see 'em.) In any event, they couldn't accomplish any of those things by using an automated account deletion function.
| 273 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:02:37pm |
| 274 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:03:02pm |
re: #247 Cato the Elder
The "Christian" theocrats have long favored bringing back public executions.
I don't think there is any way to be a Christian theocrat and favor execution at the same time. Pro-life means pro-life. But I would love to read the twisted explanations just for entertainment.
| 275 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:03:04pm |
re: #245 Joshua Cohen
I bet you would perform safer serx with Victoria Secret Angels in the puplic square - singing! ;)
There's nothing safe about my singing.
| 276 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:03:04pm |
re: #265 Cato the Elder
OT.
My local emergency room now has an armed, uniformed city police officer as the official receptionist. No exaggeration.
And it made me feel better when I took my friend there Saturday night.
And it's reason no. 598,344 that I'm getting the hell out of this town.
No way. The receptionist was probably taking a coffee break.
| 277 |
Chip Designer Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:03:47pm |
re: #265 Cato the Elder
OT.
My local emergency room now has an armed, uniformed city police officer as the official receptionist. No exaggeration.
Most city emergency rooms have police these days. I haven't been to one which didn't.
| 278 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:22pm |
re: #273 ~Fianna
Cancer is made of cells which reproduce, so it's alive, isn't it?
Cancer is actually more like an organ in one's body. Albeit an unwanted one. Your kidney is not "alive" in the sense you are using. Nor is a wart.
| 279 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:23pm |
re: #257 eclectic infidel
Yup. Very time absorbing and costly (had friends go through the process).
Same here. Like the variance in state divorce laws, I know whereof I speak (through friends).
| 280 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:30pm |
re: #271 SpaceJesus
ooops, copied the wrong link from the window
meant to say this
[Video]
I was just wondering, "how the hell does he sing this?"
| 281 |
jorline Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:39pm |
re: #247 Cato the Elder
Speaking of the public square:
The "Christian" theocrats have long favored bringing back public executions.
Me, I'm for public-square tax audits of suspected cheats. That should draw the crowds...
I guess we could start with the current administration.
Chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee Charlie Rangel...COME ON DOWN.
| 282 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:50pm |
re: #273 ~Fianna
Cancer is made of cells which reproduce, so it's alive, isn't it?
That is a disease state. Bacteria are cells, too. The chicken I had for dinner was made of cells. Human Zygotes are not the same thing.
| 283 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:04:55pm |
re: #214 Cineaste
Fair enough - I also need to make a correction - highest rate is Nevada but, because of the ease of marriage there I feel like it marks a statistical anomaly.
The rate is high in Nevada because you only have to be resident for 6 weeks to count as Nevadan, and there's a very short waiting period before the divorce is final. People from other states go to Nevada to get divorced.
| 285 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:05:33pm |
re: #270 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
Graphic Video of a flouncer in action:
Heh. Or maybe Mom found out how to block his porn.
| 286 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:05:36pm |
re: #273 ~Fianna
Viruses reproduce but they aren't "alive".
| 287 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:05:46pm |
re: #278 cliffster
Cancer is actually more like an organ in one's body. Albeit an unwanted one. Your kidney is not "alive" in the sense you are using. Nor is a wart.
That's my point. Cell theory is not a great way to define "life".
| 288 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:05:54pm |
re: #280 Danny
I was just wondering, "how the hell does he sing this?"
my rule 11 sanctions rap, that's how.
| 289 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:06:08pm |
re: #282 Dar ul Harbarian
That is a disease state. Bacteria are cells, too. The chicken I had for dinner was made of cells. Human Zygotes are not the same thing.
And an atopic pregnancy is a disease state that will kill the mother. Care to comment?
| 290 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:06:11pm |
re: #51 ASU86PE
Too bad a more thoughtful statement will do nothing as well to stop needless abortions.At some point abortions simply support prostitution and the State becomes contractual co-conspirators in the prostitution ring and the exploitation of women.
Needless abortions? Who the hell gets to say which abortions are 'needless'? You?
And as for statements made for shock value, I'll direct you to your own last paragraph, chock-full of crazy as it is.
BTW, if you'd like to ensure there are fewer 'needless' abortions, can I assume that you lobby for the availability of emergency contraception, oppose 'conscience clauses' that allow pharmacists to refuse to dispense borth control, work to ensure better education and access to birth control, and lobby insurance companies to cover birth control in their plans?
I'm guessing you don't do those things. Why don't you work on that instead of telling me and other women how access to abortion makes us 'prostitutes', ok? In my world, the freedom to exercise control over my reproductive and sexual life, and my right to become a mother only when and how i choose, is the exact opposite of me being 'exploited'.
But wingnuts aren't so good with the logic thing, or with supporting teh ideas of privacy and personal responsibility when it comes to people's sexual choices, especially those of women.
| 291 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:06:16pm |
Charles -
Didn't you try out the "Chronicle code" years back on the comments system? It is the feature where the person who has a deleted comment doesn't see the deletion. Maybe a feature for the flouncers?
| 292 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:06:53pm |
re: #282 Dar ul Harbarian
That is a disease state. Bacteria are cells, too. The chicken I had for dinner was made of cells. Human Zygotes are not the same thing.
Cell theory says nothing about that.
| 293 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:07:33pm |
re: #291 karmic_inquisitor
Charles -
Didn't you try out the "Chronicle code" years back on the comments system? It is the feature where the person who has a deleted comment doesn't see the deletion. Maybe a feature for the flouncers?
Yeah, I could do that. But I guess I'm just not quite as evil as the mainstream media yet, because it just seems underhanded and wrong to me.
| 294 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:07:35pm |
Flounce-O-Rama is right. They are coming out of the walls.
| 295 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:07:40pm |
re: #286 Mich-again
Viruses reproduce but they aren't "alive".
Exactly. Which is why cell theory is not a great way to determine "life".
| 296 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:07:43pm |
When is Bilbo Baggins' birthday? Today, tomorrow or the 23rd?
| 297 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:07:46pm |
I will say one thing for the young lady - she has the Palin smirk almost mastered.
| 299 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:08:29pm |
re: #287 ~Fianna
That's my point. Cell theory is not a great way to define "life".
Name an instance where a human came into being without passing through the stages of Zygote, Morula, Blastula, etc.
| 300 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:08:41pm |
re: #287 ~Fianna
That's my point. Cell theory is not a great way to define "life".
Gotcha - sorry, need to follow the conversation better. I'm seeing very few people willing to weigh in on when exactly it stops being ok to stop the wheels of life on the zygote->embryo->fetus.
| 301 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:08:47pm |
Abortions Should Be Done in the Public Square
At least that way I'd know which produce stands to stay away from come the Saturday morning Farmer's Market.
| 302 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:08:59pm |
re: #296 MandyManners
When is Bilbo Baggins' birthday? Today, tomorrow or the 23rd?
Sept 22, 2890 TA
| 303 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:05pm |
re: #298 jaunte
Someone's quickly looking up atopic.
Its actually ectopic - and I could talk about it in very great detail, since I've had 2.
| 304 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:06pm |
| 305 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:13pm |
That really was a disgusting statement from Lila Rose. In her mind I'm sure her sickly smile and gag-worthy angels comment in some way vindicate her as a 'good person' even as she celebrates her desire to see women who choose to abort punished with public humiliation of the most extreme nature. This is a diseased, medieval mindset. What an obnoxious cretin.
| 306 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:24pm |
re: #269 jaunte
I sincerely hope that more women choose the course your birthmother chose.
They do need to know that people are eager to adopt their baby; I try on these kinds of threads to encourage the pro-life advocates to take some action to help with that.
Your intentions are noble and your actions commendable.
And as you say, that's can make a difference on this issue in reducing the number of abortions - knowing that, in fact, there are more than just two options. Thanks for sharing your experience with me. It give me an opportunity to be grateful.
| 307 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:33pm |
| 308 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:43pm |
| 310 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:48pm |
re: #305 Jimmah
That really was a disgusting statement from Lila Rose. In her mind I'm sure her sickly smile and gag-worthy angels comment in some way vindicate her as a 'good person' even as she celebrates her desire to see women who choose to abort punished with public humiliation of the most extreme nature. This is a diseased, medieval mindset. What an obnoxious cretin.
And yet, more than a few people don't seem to understand that.
| 311 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:09:49pm |
re: #296 MandyManners
When is Bilbo Baggins' birthday? Today, tomorrow or the 23rd?
You're asking us?
| 313 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:06pm |
re: #291 karmic_inquisitor
Charles -
Didn't you try out the "Chronicle code" years back on the comments system? It is the feature where the person who has a deleted comment doesn't see the deletion. Maybe a feature for the flouncers?
Charles never implemented that (except once, to demonstrate its workings) because of the inherent dishonesty of such a system. That was the correct choice.
| 315 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:27pm |
re: #296 MandyManners
When is Bilbo Baggins' birthday? Today, tomorrow or the 23rd?
Which calendar are you using? Shire, Old Reckoning or New?
| 316 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:31pm |
re: #299 Dar ul Harbarian
Name an instance where a human came into being without passing through the stages of Zygote, Morula, Blastula, etc.
Fish, amphibian, reptile... ontology recapitulates philology right?
| 318 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:48pm |
re: #299 Dar ul Harbarian
Name an instance where a human came into being without passing through the stages of Zygote, Morula, Blastula, etc.
Cell theory doesn't differentiate. If abortion is wrong because cell theory says that an embryo is "alive" then cancer is also "alive".
| 320 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:52pm |
re: #250 Dar ul Harbarian
Brain death is Death. The body will not survive brain death. It is an irreversible condition.
A fetus without a brain isn't the same thing. It has yet to complete its potential.
Ahh but if it has yet to complete it's potential, and having a brain capable of human thought is that potential, it is not yet a person. It is only a potential person. Like I said, this is the crux of the debate. It is not if the fetus is alive, but rather if it is a person.
Now surely the day before a baby is born, it is a person. What about a month... certainly. What about six months? I do not think so. What about seven months before, I am certain the answer is no.
| 321 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:52pm |
re: #299 Dar ul Harbarian
Name an instance where a human came into being without passing through the stages of Zygote, Morula, Blastula, etc.
Well...there are many rumors about these things...it's does not happen anymore (or less often) but...
| 322 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:10:59pm |
re: #296 MandyManners
When is Bilbo Baggins' birthday? Today, tomorrow or the 23rd?
I forget. Anyway, I seem to recall that there were at least three different calendar systems in use in Middle Earth.
| 323 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:11:19pm |
| 324 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:11:24pm |
re: #266 theheat
Preventing unwanted pregnancies means preventing abortions. That means one less cause for counterfeit harpy dumbasses like Lila Rose to shriek about. That's win/win for all of us.
Exactly! Stop unwanted pregnancies and abortions would stop (except the extreme cases). But these folks aren't working towards that end in the slightest.
Everything they advocate comes down to a misogynistic worldview. Lila wants to shame women having abortions by placing them in the public square. They want to ban abortions so women have to face the possibility of death. They want birth control to be difficult for women to obtain because women should be ashamed to be having sex, or ashamed to want to regulate their cycles. They want women to be ashamed of their own sexuality.
| 325 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:11:56pm |
re: #314 Charles
Flounce away into the night!
Surely there has got to be some way to make money off this stuff.
| 326 |
karmic_inquisitor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:11pm |
re: #293 Charles
Yeah, I could do that. But I guess I'm just not quite as evil as the mainstream media yet, because it just seems underhanded and wrong to me.
I guess I am a little more twisted.
Your a good man.
| 327 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:15pm |
OK, it just occurred to me.
All you twats (in the British sense) who think Charles bans people based on popularity: take a look at Spacejesus' karma.
Nobody loves Spacejesus. But he keeps it all within bounds, and he's still here. No flounces, no flameouts, no banning.
QED
| 328 |
~Fianna Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:21pm |
re: #304 Dar ul Harbarian
Nothing about what?
Nothing about any moral relevance of "life". This is what the link you posted says:
Classical interpretation
1. All organisms are made up of one or more cells.
2. Cells are the fundamental functional and structural unit of life.
3. All cells come from pre-existing cells.
4. The cell is the unit of structure, physiology, and organization in living things.
5. The cell retains a dual existence as a distinct entity and a building block in the construction of organisms.
Modern interpretation
The generally accepted parts of modern cell theory include:
1. The cell is the fundamental unit of structure and function in living things.
2. All cells come from pre-existing cells by division.
3. Energy flow (metabolism and biochemistry) occurs within cells.
4. Cells contain hereditary information (DNA) which is passed from cell to cell during cell division
5. All cells are basically the same in chemical composition.
6. All known living things are made up of cells.
7. Some organisms are unicellular, i.e., made up of only one cell.
8. Others are multicellular, composed of a number of cells.
9. The activity of an organism depends on the total activity of independent cells.
Cancer is just as "alive" as a zygote.
| 329 |
theheat Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:23pm |
re: #297 Cato the Elder
Has it been a month yet Cato, or is this just a prelude to unleashing the beast?
| 330 |
erraticsphinx Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:25pm |
| 331 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:12:57pm |
| 332 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:13:13pm |
re: #329 theheat
Has it been a month yet Cato, or is this just a prelude to unleashing the beast?
The latter. And people keep baiting me.
| 333 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:13:13pm |
re: #181 lostlakehiker
isn't it maybe a crying shame that so many promising fetuses don't make it to birth?
No. The crying shame are all the unwanted kids who languish in group homes and substandard foster care. That's the real tragedy.
Bristol Palin ...It's not fair how she was derided for having gone ahead with the pregnancy and delivery. The right to choose includes the right to not abort, after all.
This is true. To abort or not abort, is the mother's decision.
| 334 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:13:28pm |
| 336 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:14:00pm |
| 337 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:14:04pm |
re: #305 Jimmah
That really was a disgusting statement from Lila Rose. In her mind I'm sure her sickly smile and gag-worthy angels comment in some way vindicate her as a 'good person' even as she celebrates her desire to see women who choose to abort punished with public humiliation of the most extreme nature. This is a diseased, medieval mindset. What an obnoxious cretin.
And that's her good points!
| 339 |
moonflower Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:14:34pm |
During your life your thinking can change and then you can have regrets.
I had an abortion when I was very young in 1975 when it was legal in Calfornia. And then when several birth control devices failed me I had two more, the last in 1995. I truly did not think of them as anything spiritual, but now I do. They would have been my children and I was just too weak then to make the sacrifice. That is the truth.
Abortion is a very personal decision to make. No one will live with that decision except the woman who makes it. I have regrets, but what are they worth now.
This is the truth, from a woman who has lived this. I would never advise a young woman to abort her child. That is just me.
| 340 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:14:38pm |
re: #318 ~Fianna
Cell theory doesn't differentiate. If abortion is wrong because cell theory says that an embryo is "alive" then cancer is also "alive".
Hehe, damn f***ing logic. Isn't a living organism defined as one that seeks sustenance, seeks shelter, attempts to reproduce?
| 341 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:14:59pm |
re: #327 Cato the Elder
OK, it just occurred to me.
All you twats (in the British sense) who think Charles bans people based on popularity: take a look at Spacejesus' karma.
Nobody loves Spacejesus. But he keeps it all within bounds, and he's still here. No flounces, no flameouts, no banning.
QED
I love SpaceJesus.
| 342 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:15:51pm |
re: #277 Chip Designer
Most city emergency rooms have police these days. I haven't been to one which didn't.
Yeah, but they're off-duty rent-a-cops. This guy was city payroll, full uniform, duty weapon.
That's my town.
| 343 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:15:52pm |
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
| 344 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:16:22pm |
| 345 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:00pm |
re: #343 MandyManners
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
I really do hear that!
| 346 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:03pm |
re: #343 MandyManners
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
Privacy my ass! It's been nothing but teabag this, teabag that. The scrotal sac needs a rest too!
/
| 347 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:11pm |
re: #322 JamesTKirk
I forget. Anyway, I seem to recall that there were at least three different calendar systems in use in Middle Earth.
In the time of the setting of LotR the two "calendars" in use in the West were King's Reckoning and Shire Reckoning. SR dates were 1600 years behind Third Age of KR dates.
/oh jhc shoot me why do i know this crap
| 348 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:28pm |
re: #276 Dar ul Harbarian
No way. The receptionist was probably taking a coffee break.
Way. I asked him, and I was there for four and a half hours. He was it.
| 349 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:35pm |
I paid the $15 co-pay a few years ago because my then-GF and I were both fertile as potting soil.
So I have a question for the pro-life guys. Have you had a vasectomy? Will you? Why not?
| 350 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:17:53pm |
re: #324 Sharmuta
Exactly! Stop unwanted pregnancies and abortions would stop (except the extreme cases). But these folks aren't working towards that end in the slightest.
Everything they advocate comes down to a misogynistic worldview. Lila wants to shame women having abortions by placing them in the public square. They want to ban abortions so women have to face the possibility of death. They want birth control to be difficult for women to obtain because women should be ashamed to be having sex, or ashamed to want to regulate their cycles. They want women to be ashamed of their own sexuality.
But when it's a man, and the condom breaks, they rush out and demand an abortion for the woman. Hypocritical to a T.
| 351 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:01pm |
re: #324 Sharmuta
Exactly! Stop unwanted pregnancies and abortions would stop (except the extreme cases). But these folks aren't working towards that end in the slightest.
Everything they advocate comes down to a misogynistic worldview. Lila wants to shame women having abortions by placing them in the public square. They want to ban abortions so women have to face the possibility of death. They want birth control to be difficult for women to obtain because women should be ashamed to be having sex, or ashamed to want to regulate their cycles. They want women to be ashamed of their own sexuality.
That is about right. Completely gross really.
| 352 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:20pm |
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-Okla.) Chief of Staff: ‘All Pornography Is Homosexual Pornography’
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
And though this isn't from the VVS, it's still funny:
Gingrich Group Awards, Then Revokes, Entrepeneurship Award to Porn Studio
(apologies if these have already been mentioned)
| 353 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:20pm |
re: #346 pianobuff
Privacy my ass! It's been nothing but teabag this, teabag that. The scrotal sac needs a rest too!
/
You're fucking nuts.
| 354 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:31pm |
re: #348 Cato the Elder
Sittin' behind a big new circular desk that wasn't there the last time I went. Sign said "Welcome to [hospital name] emergency room reception".
| 355 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:32pm |
re: #349 rwmofo
I paid the $15 co-pay a few years ago because my then-GF and I were both fertile as potting soil.
So I have a question for the pro-life guys. Have you had a vasectomy? Will you? Why not?
| 356 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:35pm |
| 357 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:18:47pm |
re: #343 MandyManners
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
Ugh. No one wants to a see a scrotal sac. It's like God had leftover elbow skin.
| 358 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:19:00pm |
| 360 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:19:08pm |
re: #318 ~Fianna
Cell theory doesn't differentiate. If abortion is wrong because cell theory says that an embryo is "alive" then cancer is also "alive".
Cancer is alive. Yes. And it is a good thing to kill it.
You are totally confused.
A cancer has no hope of ever becoming a human being.
A human being comes into existence by a rigid and well studied series of steps.
That is what the abortion debate hangs on: Where and when to draw the line.
It was postulated that the start of life was somehow not resolved and I pointed out that this isn't true. Human life begins at conception. Period. Many Zygotes spontaneously abort and pregnancy begins at implantation. The fetus develops and organs differentiate. Viabilty begins later, depending on the quality of your nearest neonatal unit. Birth occurs at nine months.
Those are the biolgic facts.
| 361 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:19:26pm |
In fact, just up and up... let's say that I can respect someone who has legitimate issues with abortion on ethical grounds. I may not agree with them in all things, but I can respect them.
However,
To be opposed to both birth control and abortion is the height of stupid.
| 362 |
ryannon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:19:27pm |
re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth
Will they serve hot dogs and beer? Music by FEAR?
Will this be before or after the witch-burning?
| 364 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:14pm |
re: #357 acwgusa
Ugh. No one wants to a see a scrotal sac. It's like God had leftover elbow skin.
I'm so glad the male equivalents of Britney Spears and Paris Hilton aren't strutting around commando in kilts in front of the paparazzi.
| 365 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:18pm |
Yesterday - well it seemed so cool
When I read your blog, stayed all night
I said it´s love you said not quite
It's funny how I could never cry
Until tonight and you pass by
Stand for stand against my own lie
You´re ajaxed to kill and guess who´s dying?
Flounce away the heartache
Flounce away the tears
- Flounce away
Loneliness is a crowded blog
Full of open hearts ignoring moi
All together while I'm all alone
All at once my whole world had changed
Now i´m in the dark, off the roll
Let stinky's wrench light up them all
I close my eyes and flounce till dawn
- flounce away
Now I know I must walk the line
Until I find an open reg
There was I - many times a fool
I hope and pray, but not too much
Out of reach is out of touch
All the way is far enough
- Flounce away
| 366 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:21pm |
re: #360 Dar ul Harbarian
Cancer is alive. Yes. And it is a good thing to kill it.
You are totally confused.
A cancer has no hope of ever becoming a human being.
A human being comes into existence by a rigid and well studied series of steps.
That is what the abortion debate hangs on: Where and when to draw the line.
It was postulated that the start of life was somehow not resolved and I pointed out that this isn't true. Human life begins at conception. Period. Many Zygotes spontaneously abort and pregnancy begins at implantation. The fetus develops and organs differentiate. Viabilty begins later, depending on the quality of your nearest neonatal unit. Birth occurs at nine months.
Those are the biolgic facts.
So I get that a fetus will become a human. Is it a human yet?
| 367 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:35pm |
The notion that abortions should be performed in a public square is completely revolting to me. But the notion that its OK for abortion clinic workers to help a child conceal statutory rape as long as it was her boyfriend and not her father who did it to her is revolting to me as well.
This issue is not so simple that you can pick a side and root for it like you root for your favorite football team.
| 368 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:36pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-Okla.) Chief of Staff: ‘All Pornography Is Homosexual Pornography’
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
And though this isn't from the VVS, it's still funny:
Gingrich Group Awards, Then Revokes, Entrepeneurship Award to Porn Studio
(apologies if these have already been mentioned)
Good. Freaking. Grief.
| 369 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:20:42pm |
re: #361 LudwigVanQuixote
In fact, just up and up... let's say that I can respect someone who has legitimate issues with abortion on ethical grounds. I may not agree with them in all things, but I can respect them.
However,
To be opposed to both birth control and abortion is the height of stupid.
And we don't want to pay for those welfare babies either.
| 370 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:21:10pm |
| 372 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:21:26pm |
re: #274 Mich-again
I don't think there is any way to be a Christian theocrat and favor execution at the same time. Pro-life means pro-life. But I would love to read the twisted explanations just for entertainment.
Really. I've had numerous discussions with fundamentalists, both at college and then just later in life. Overwhelmingly, most of them took no issue with capital punishment, and a few even quoted the biblical line about give unto Caesar what is Caesar's...etc. Most differentiated between "innocent life," or "not innocent life."
My dad, the agnostic, I have no doubt, would be on the same page as Sharmuta. He also opposes the death penalty, even for the most heinous of crimes. Of course, he thinks our prisons are far too cushy these days.
| 373 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:21:41pm |
re: #364 JamesTKirk
Ack! It's Perez Hilton in a KILT! MY EYES! THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!
| 376 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:22:25pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
| 378 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:23:03pm |
Ooh ooh! Dredged up a good one at the Fever Swamp (commenting on the same ICR article I cited in #225):
That's why I say that Bible-believing Christians in the conservative movement should begin to demand tolerance by evo-atheists. Those evo-atheists who remain intolerant of the Christian Right (such as the Temple of Darwin fanatics over at Little Green Footballs) should be purged from the conservative movement IMHO. Let the liberals have them. We are like canaries in the mine, for if the evo-atheists turn on us, it is only a matter of time before they stab the rest of the conservative movement in the back (as evidenced by all the evo-atheist "conservatives" attacking Rush Limbaugh these days). emphasis added
| 379 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:23:13pm |
| 380 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:23:47pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
I really was honestly talking about the right having a thing for saying the opposite of truth as a new meme.
The idea that a man looking at naked women for enjoyment is a homosexual activity is beyond belief. So would looking at naked guys for enjoyment be straight then?
Can anyone possibly trust someone who thinks this way to tie their own shoes, let alone run for office?
| 381 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:23:47pm |
One thing's for certain.. you're not changing anyone's mind on this one.
| 382 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:00pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Looking at Playboy...for how long, did they say?
| 383 |
Dar ul Harbarian Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:02pm |
re: #366 LudwigVanQuixote
So I get that a fetus will become a human. Is it a human yet?
That's above my paygrade this late in the evening.
Nite.
| 384 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:15pm |
re: #376 JamesTKirk
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
Well...Homo-(sexual)...like in Homo Sapiens?
| 385 |
theheat Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:21pm |
re: #324 Sharmuta
And as iceweasel pointed out, most of these people want pharmacists to be able to decide if they will/won't dispense legal drugs, like BC pills or Plan B contraception. Some groups even say they believe BC pills are murder (google it - it's everywhere), since contraception pills prevent a viable egg from reaching babyhood. Then there are the anti-condom peeps... it goes on and on and on.
You see, they're not happy to simply negate abortion, but to dictate every facet of women's sexuality. They want to make sure women have no choice, whatsoever, except to treat our nether regions like a Clown Car for Christ, because Jesus loves lots and lots of babies - healthy, wanted, loved, deformed, unloved, starved, beaten - Jesus loves every dang one of them. Have lots, and have them often, because Jesus loves babies.
People like Lila Rose are counterfeit, because it isn't just about abortion. It's about our choices and our freedoms, and signing them over to the morality police.
| 386 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:23pm |
re: #339 moonflower
During your life your thinking can change and then you can have regrets.
I had an abortion when I was very young in 1975 when it was legal in Calfornia. And then when several birth control devices failed me I had two more, the last in 1995. I truly did not think of them as anything spiritual, but now I do. They would have been my children and I was just too weak then to make the sacrifice. That is the truth.
Abortion is a very personal decision to make. No one will live with that decision except the woman who makes it. I have regrets, but what are they worth now.
This is the truth, from a woman who has lived this. I would never advise a young woman to abort her child. That is just me.
I'm really sorry you weren't in a place and with a partner where you could support yourself and a child. That doesn't make you weak or selfish.
| 387 |
pianobuff Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:30pm |
Good night for now Kirk, Mandy, etc.
Time for me to sack out.
| 388 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:32pm |
OK, CatholicBoom, I'll grab that. (And by the way, is "buttphuk" a category in Augustine's theology, or that of Aquinas? I forget.)
As a Catholic, I am morally and theologically committed to the sanctity of life.
What I am not committed to is telling the world what to do.
ora et labore
And go get a Catholic clue.
Bye, now!
| 389 |
jorline Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:36pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
Ice, I'm a conservative Texan and far from being a Rick Perry fan, but please provide links to the tea parties that have documentation of Perry advocating secession.
| 390 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:37pm |
re: #373 acwgusa
Ack! It's Perez Hilton in a KILT! MY EYES! THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!
A vivid imagination is not always a good thing.'
I've worn a kilt, commando even, but never legs akimbo sliding out of a limo with everything flapping in the breeze.
(How are your eyes now?)
| 391 |
Coracle Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:24:57pm |
re: #382 Danny
Looking at Playboy...for how long, did they say?
Well, based on extensive research, at least 30 years.
| 392 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:07pm |
re: #353 MandyManners
You're fucking nuts.
Well, sure, but only because the sane people don't want anything to do with me.
| 393 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:16pm |
re: #390 JamesTKirk
A vivid imagination is not always a good thing.'
I've worn a kilt, commando even, but never legs akimbo sliding out of a limo with everything flapping in the breeze.
(How are your eyes now?)
Gouged Out.
| 394 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:22pm |
re: #136 Joshua Cohen
Condoms? The Pope told us that these are the evildoing!
To quote a dear old family friend, on a different subject, "I believe the Holy Father is getting bad information."
| 395 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:36pm |
| 396 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:47pm |
re: #380 LudwigVanQuixote
I really was honestly talking about the right having a thing for saying the opposite of truth as a new meme.
The idea that a man looking at naked women for enjoyment is a homosexual activity is beyond belief. So would looking at naked guys for enjoyment be straight then?
Can anyone possibly trust someone who thinks this way to tie their own shoes, let alone run for office?
What that might mean in the hands of crazed legislators like:
“As far as I’m concerned,” said [Texas Governor Rick] Perry, “you can’t NOT legislate morality!”
| 397 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:51pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-Okla.) Chief of Staff: ‘All Pornography Is Homosexual Pornography’
Michael Schwartz - if he thinks that looking at pictures of tits in playboy turns you gay, I'd have to conclude that he is in fact most likely gay himself. "I swears I never had a homersexshual thought in my life until all them pics of naked ladies turned me!"
| 398 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:52pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Their statistician is ripping them off.
| 399 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:25:55pm |
re: #391 Coracle
Well, based on extensive research, at least 30 years.
Continuously? Or is it cumulative? This is important!!
| 400 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:07pm |
re: #350 acwgusa
But when it's a man, and the condom breaks, they rush out and demand an abortion for the woman. Hypocritical to a T.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's a completely different mindset concerning male sexuality. Men who have sex are studs, women who have sex are sluts. No one is trying to control male sexuality- not even women. If a man wants a woman to have an abortion, she can tell him to go to hell if that's her choice. And these folks don't advocate a thing about reigning in male sexuality- there is no shame associated with it like there is with women.
| 401 |
Coracle Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:10pm |
re: #395 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah seriously...
But, for the cause, and in the interests of science, I'm continuing this risky research.
| 402 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:15pm |
re: #389 jorline
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
Ice, I'm a conservative Texan and far from being a Rick Perry fan, but please provide links to the tea parties that have documentation of Perry advocating secession.
I haven't seen any of the talk of succession that was rampant (albeit tongue-in-cheek, mostly) after the 2004 election.
| 403 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:16pm |
re: #376 JamesTKirk
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
Well, there are those rumors about you and Spock...
///
| 404 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:25pm |
re: #376 JamesTKirk
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
I think he was saying (Lord help me if I actually understood this guy) that pornography makes you turn to loving yourself (masterbating) and that, I guess, means your gay.
ROFL
| 406 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:26:57pm |
re: #389 jorline
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
Ice, I'm a conservative Texan and far from being a Rick Perry fan, but please provide links to the tea parties that have documentation of Perry advocating secession.
What, you don't trust Fox News?
| 407 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:08pm |
re: #399 Danny
Continuously? Or is it cumulative? This is important!!
After 30 years, you haven't moved onto anything harder yet?
| 409 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:31pm |
re: #376 JamesTKirk
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
Well, if they mean that looking at massively photoshopped photos of surgically altered naked women might make a man lose interest in the real thing, well, perhaps they have a point?
| 410 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:43pm |
re: #401 Coracle
But, for the cause, and in the interests of science, I'm continuing this risky research.
I understand you commitment to science. I am deeply honored to see one so dedicated to the cause of human knowledge.
| 411 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:46pm |
Hey Night Lizards!
It stayed cool all day in my part of the world.
How are you-all and are we still OT talking about koo-koo (cachoo)?
| 412 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:49pm |
re: #158 bosforus
Here's what I was thinking of:
Probably NSFW
[Link: folsomstreetfair.org...]
Thought you might be. But ain't NO ONE getting pregnant at Folsom. I can assure you of that.
;)
| 413 |
Coracle Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:27:58pm |
re: #407 JamesTKirk
After 30 years, you haven't moved onto anything harder yet?
*snicker*
That's got too many straight lines to even dare taking.
| 414 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:10pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-Okla.) Chief of Staff: ‘All Pornography Is Homosexual Pornography’
"A mockery of everything that is good, decent, and wholesome."
/mankook
| 415 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:11pm |
re: #400 Sharmuta
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's a completely different mindset concerning male sexuality. Men who have sex are studs, women who have sex are sluts. No one is trying to control male sexuality- not even women. If a man wants a woman to have an abortion, she can tell him to go to hell if that's her choice. And these folks don't advocate a thing about reigning in male sexuality- there is no shame associated with it like there is with women.
Well, lets put it this way. I'm of the male species, and to put it crudly, I think he who fucks and runs needs to be beaten like the Detroit Lions.
| 416 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:14pm |
re: #343 MandyManners
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
If men had to give birth an abortion would be easier to get than a hamburger at a drive-through.
-Dennis Miller
| 418 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:19pm |
re: #368 Charles
Good. Freaking. Grief.
The so-cons and theocrats are really making a run at consolidating what's left of the GOP base and making it all their own. Bad times ahead, IMO.
That VVS, I fear, represents the future of the GOP for the next couple of years. Might be worth it to collate all the info on it and do a post.
| 419 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:30pm |
re: #403 Dark_Falcon
Well, there are those rumors about you and Spock...
///
That just won't die. *sob*
I'll just have to go console myself with another green chick threesome.
| 420 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:40pm |
Crap. Wife just got this in the mail. I'm in trouble. BBL.
Dear Mrs. Racer X,
Over the past six months, your husband has caused quite a commotion in our store. We cannot tolerate this behavior and have been forced to ban both of you from the store. Our complaints against your husband, Mr. Racer X, are listed below and are documented by our video surveillance cameras.
1. June 15: Took 24 boxes of condoms and randomly put them in other people's carts when they weren't looking.
2. July 2: Set all the alarm clocks in Housewares to go off at 5-minute intervals.
3. July 7: He made a trail of tomato juice on the floor leading to the women's restroom.
4. July 19: Walked up to an employee and told her in an official voice, 'Code 3 in Housewares. Get on it right away'. This caused the employee to leave her assigned station and receive a reprimand from her Supervisor that in turn resulted with a union grievance, causing management to lose time and costing the company money.
5. August 4: Went to the Service Desk and tried to put a bag of M&Ms on layaway.
6. August 14: Moved a 'CAUTION - WET FLOOR' sign to a carpeted area.
7. August 15: Set up a tent in the camping department and told the children shoppers he'd invite them in if; they would bring pillows and blankets from the bedding department to which twenty children obliged.
8. August 23: When a clerk asked if they could help him he began crying and screamed, 'Why can't you people just leave me alone?' EMTs were called..
9. September 4: Looked right into the security camera and used it as a mirror while he picked his nose.
10. September 10: While handling guns in the hunting department, he asked the clerk where the antidepressants were.
11. October 3: In dark sunglasses he darted around the store suspiciously while loudly humming the ' Mission Impossible' theme.
12. October 6: Repeated his June 15th condom trick with a new twist; he added Depends and a personal lubricant to everyone’s carts.
13. October 18: Hid in a clothing rack and when people browsed through, yelled 'PICK ME! PICK ME!'
14. October 21: When an announcement came over the loud speaker, he assumed a fetal position and screamed 'OH NO! IT'S THOSE VOICES AGAIN!'
And last, but not least:
15. October 23: Went into a fitting room, shut the door, waited awhile, then yelled very loudly, 'Hey! There's no toilet paper in here.' One of the clerks passed out.
| 421 |
ryannon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:47pm |
re: #382 Danny
Looking at Playboy...for how long, did they say?
First deaf, and now gay.
When do I lose my eyesight?
| 422 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:28:53pm |
re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist
Thought you might be. But ain't NO ONE getting pregnant at Folsom. I can assure you of that.
;)
I don't like being reminded of that photo-expo.
*shivers*
| 423 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:29:36pm |
re: #419 JamesTKirk
That just won't die. *sob*
I'll just have to go console myself with another green chick threesome.
[Link: i2.photobucket.com...]
c'mon, we all know it's that blonde yoeman you really want.
| 424 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:29:37pm |
re: #413 Coracle
*snicker*
That's got too many straight lines to even dare taking.
I figured I should be the straight man for once (especially after that comment about me and Spock) and let someone else have the fun...
| 425 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:29:56pm |
re: #389 jorline
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
Ice, I'm a conservative Texan and far from being a Rick Perry fan, but please provide links to the tea parties that have documentation of Perry advocating secession.
AUSTIN, Texas -- Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"
An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall -- one of three tea parties he was attending across the state -- that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government. He said the federal government is strangling Americans with taxation, spending and debt.
Perry repeated his running theme that Texas' economy is in relatively good shape compared with other states and with the "federal budget mess." Many in the crowd held signs deriding President Barack Obama and the $786 billion federal economic stimulus package.
Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.
Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 426 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:00pm |
Cagey Secessionist Rick Perry:
Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"
An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall — one of three tea parties he was attending across the state — that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government. He said the federal government is strangling Americans with taxation, spending and debt.
Perry repeated his running theme that Texas' economy is in relatively good shape compared with other states and with the "federal budget mess." Many in the crowd held signs deriding President Barack Obama and the $786 billion federal economic stimulus package.
Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.
"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot." [Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
| 427 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:18pm |
re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist
Thought you might be. But ain't NO ONE getting pregnant at Folsom. I can assure you of that.
;)
Ha ha! I had a summer internship in Sacramento (commuted from Folsom) back in '06. Didn't know about these "street fairs" until after I left. Thank goodness.
| 428 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:37pm |
re: #423 ggt
c'mon, we all know it's that blonde yoeman you really want.
She can join in. There's room for four.
| 429 |
MittDoesNotCompute Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:40pm |
re: #408 Jimmah
Nice segue into a South Park moment... ;-)
| 430 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:41pm |
re: #211 ludwigvanquixote
This may come as a shocker BTW, but after reading that article, the primary concern of a clinic worker towards an frightened 14 year old girl is towards the girl. If the girl thinks that she will get her BF into trouble and then not come in, then the clinic can not help her.
It is because of these things that there are such things as doctor patient privilege. Only the most whacko of the right wing would think that it is an issue that the clinic did not rush to report her imaginary over aged BF over a phone conversation. Rather, they would likely try to counsel her to change her situation at a minimum and or go to the cops, once trust had been established - rather than scaring a poor girl off.
Yea, well that's called compassion, and it's in short supply on the the pro-life side of the argument.
It's the fact that they a certain that any group of cells is alive, and therefore imbued with rights, that preclude them from thinking about ramifications... which are such annoying things.
Pointing out reality, that 13 year old girls that are pregnant are in sever straights is beside the point.
And if that seems harsh, it is, because, ultimately, even the sane strong pro-lifers feel that the unborn takes precedent over the already alive.
In the mean time this woman took half an hour pulling the heart strings of someone who wants to help young women in trouble and took that clinician away from someone who needed help.This woman is despicable.
| 431 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:43pm |
The VAST majority of abortions performed in the United States are done when the so-called "baby" is nothing more than a few cells.
Charles, unless you're being like the Catholic Church and counting the effects of morning-after birth control pills as "abortion", that's factually untrue.
But if by "abortions" you were talking about surgical abortions -- i.e., the normal colloquial use of the term -- then your statement was, in the most charitable interpretation, outlandishly misleading hyperbole. (You know, like Rush Limbaugh traffics in!)
Because by the end of the fourth week after conception -- which is to say, before many women have even been worried enough about a late period to buy an OTC pregnancy test -- the human embryo, though tiny, is already unmistakably a vertebrate, as you can see at this med-school link that explains how to make a model 1-month embryo out of oven-bakable polymer clay!
According to this fact page from the Guttmacher Institute, 89% of abortions in the U.S. are done before the end of the 12th week, and 61% are done before the end of the 9th week. (Note that the Guttmacher Institute is pro-choice -- thus, if the numbers are in error, they would tend to err on the side of understating the percentage of late-term abortions and overstating early-term abortions, while an anti-abortion organization would tend to do the opposite.)
And by the end of 9 weeks, the embryo is not only recognizably a vertebrate and quadruped, but is even distinctly mammalian to a lay observer (though less than an inch long) -- you couldn't confuse it with a bird or reptile embryo.
By the end of the 12th week, it is, at the very least, unmistakably a primate, though still several more weeks away from being impossible to confuse with a fetal chimp or gorilla.
Thus, by characterizing the first-trimester embryo baby fetus critter as "nothing more than a few cells," you're definitely not coming down on the side of either rhetorical honesty or good biology education -- you're just being a sloppy political pundit repeating a slogan you saw on a bumpersticker.
| 432 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:30:48pm |
| 433 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:31:09pm |
re: #172 Cineaste
The lowest divorce rate in America: Massachusetts.
The highest divorce rate in America: Alaska
Who are the values voters?
As a number of condescending pundits have informed me, it's not about your actual behavior, it's about having a religious, morals-based understanding of the world.
Screw that, says this Jew. It's what you do that counts.
| 434 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:31:32pm |
re: #431 Throbert McGee
Whatever, man. I've given up trying to figure out where you're coming from.
| 435 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:31:42pm |
re: #400 Sharmuta
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's a completely different mindset concerning male sexuality. Men who have sex are studs, women who have sex are sluts.
We want names and phone numbers!
I never got this "I wanna merry a virgin" concept.
You gonna merry her and she is a total blank...or years later she things - well I just wanna try out other dicks now...
And if both are...uah! Green and green that gives a salad...
| 437 |
moonflower Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:31:58pm |
re: #386 funky chicken
Thank you. I seek absolution now for this. I was brought up in the 70's Womens Movement, but in this case it was wrong for me. A cowards way out. I atone by having dogs. I shower them with love and grieve their loss.
I wish I had been stronger. Just me.
| 438 |
Mich-again Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:32:06pm |
re: #420 Racer X
A long time ago when my wife used to take me shopping with her I got bored at the Craft store and glued the old ladies glue gun to the counter while she left to show my wife where some product was at in the aisle.
| 439 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:32:09pm |
re: #434 Charles
Whatever, man. I've given up trying to figure out where you're coming from.
It's where he's coming to that's the issue, so to speak.
| 440 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:32:14pm |
re: #418 iceweasel
The so-cons and theocrats are really making a run at consolidating what's left of the GOP base and making it all their own. Bad times ahead, IMO.
That VVS, I fear, represents the future of the GOP for the next couple of years. Might be worth it to collate all the info on it and do a post.
Some of it starting to remind me of the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson days. When they were at their height. A lot of that went dormant but it came back. Only now they don't have a single leader like Falwell and Robertson. Perhaps that is the dominion of Perkins and Dobson now.
| 441 |
What, me worry? Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:32:26pm |
re: #432 Charles
Short Bus to Wingnuttia! Priceless!
| 442 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:32:40pm |
Was there a rousing rendition of 'Let the Eagles Soar' by Ashcroft to close out the day's events?
I'm not a fan of abortions. Though I suppose the speech was directed to a particular audience, this kind of rhetoric just makes me wretch.
| 443 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:33:26pm |
re: #430 doubter4444
Well that was weird, it posted my comment in the middle of yours!
I said:
Yea, well that's called compassion, and it's in short supply on the the pro-life side of the argument.
It's the fact that they a certain that any group of cells is alive, and therefore imbued with rights, that preclude them from thinking about ramifications... which are such annoying things.
Pointing out reality, that 13 year old girls that are pregnant are in sever straights is beside the point.
And if that seems harsh, it is, because, ultimately, even the sane strong pro-lifers feel that the unborn takes precedent over the already alive.
| 444 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:33:39pm |
re: #435 Joshua Cohen
We want names and phone numbers!
I never got this "I wanna merry a virgin" concept.
You gonna merry her and she is a total blank...or years later she things - well I just wanna try out other dicks now...
And if both are...uah! Green and green that gives a salad...
I don't understand wanting 72 eternal virgins either. I want 72 women who know what they're doing, and still have all of their parts intact so they can enjoy it too.
"Well, except for the 72 part," he says, smiling at the ring on his finger.
| 445 |
rollwave87 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:33:44pm |
Glenn Beck may honestly be the dumbest person in America ever to have their own TV show. and thats saying something. John McCain is bad because he would've governed like Teddy Roosevelt??? Hellooo??? Anyone home up there?
| 446 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:33:54pm |
re: #389 jorline
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
Ice, I'm a conservative Texan and far from being a Rick Perry fan, but please provide links to the tea parties that have documentation of Perry advocating secession.
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
[Link: blogs.chron.com...]
| 447 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:33:59pm |
re: #380 LudwigVanQuixote
I really was honestly talking about the right having a thing for saying the opposite of truth as a new meme.
The idea that a man looking at naked women for enjoyment is a homosexual activity is beyond belief. So would looking at naked guys for enjoyment be straight then?
Can anyone possibly trust someone who thinks this way to tie their own shoes, let alone run for office?
Notice also the implicit claim that all pronography is produced by men, and for men, and that no women ever produce it or consume it.
As usual, women's sexuality is wholly absent-- unless it's employed as a means to control or shame her. The idea of woman as active sexual agent is just not present.
| 448 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:34:18pm |
re: #181 lostlakehiker
Bristol Palin went ahead and had her baby. Now she'll have a hard life, but her baby will have a life. It's not fair how she was derided for having gone ahead with the pregnancy and delivery. The right to choose includes the right to not abort, after all.
Bristol was extolled for continuing her pregnancy by an awful lot of people. Oddly enough (yes, my old hobby-horse), by Bill O'Reilly, who had recently condemned the parents of another pregnant teenager as irresponsible pinheads.
| 449 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:34:19pm |
re: #437 moonflower
I atone by having dogs.
If you can do that in the village square, I'll sell tickets.
| 451 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:34:27pm |
Another thing that occurs to me:
The blog owner's job (and hence Charles's) is harder than that of the city paper's letters editor.
The latter gets to decide in advance which pompous asses he's going to print.
The blogger has to go in afterwards and clean up the mess.
Charles, you're a diligent bar owner. And you're your own bouncer. My hat is off my fat, old, gay, bald head.
[penultimate adjective thrown in just for you, IF]
| 452 |
jorline Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:34:43pm |
re: #402 JamesTKirk
I haven't seen any of the talk of succession that was rampant (albeit tongue-in-cheek, mostly) after the 2004 election.
I saw one tongue-in-cheek blurb shortly after the Obama's election. Perry was called on the carpet for it and quickly disavowed succession.
| 453 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:34:51pm |
re: #172 Cineaste
The lowest divorce rate in America: Massachusetts.
The highest divorce rate in America: Alaska
Who are the values voters?
Off screwing around with Argentine news-babes?
| 454 |
MandyManners Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:35:25pm |
| 455 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:35:32pm |
re: #447 iceweasel
Notice also the implicit claim that all pronography is produced by men, and for men, and that no women ever produce it or consume it.
As usual, women's sexuality is wholly absent-- unless it's employed as a means to control or shame her. The idea of woman as active sexual agent is just not present.
Which is why the good people of ACORN simply feel prostitution is a women's right :) /snark
| 456 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:35:33pm |
re: #289 LudwigVanQuixote
And an atopic pregnancy is a disease state that will kill the mother. Care to comment?
For all those who are busy looking this up, LVQ is referring to ectopic pregnancy.
| 457 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:35:52pm |
re: #453 shiplord kirel
Off screwing around with Argentine news-babes?
Or soliciting sex in toilet stalls?
| 458 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:36:06pm |
re: #447 iceweasel
Notice also the implicit claim that all pronography is produced by men, and for men, and that no women ever produce it or consume it.
As usual, women's sexuality is wholly absent-- unless it's employed as a means to control or shame her. The idea of woman as active sexual agent is just not present.
yeah... kind of bizarre too.
I feel deeply sorry for the wife of any man who does not know what a clitoris is.
| 459 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:36:07pm |
re: #448 SanFranciscoZionist
Bristol was extolled for continuing her pregnancy by an awful lot of people. Oddly enough (yes, my old hobby-horse), by Bill O'Reilly, who had recently condemned the parents of another pregnant teenager as irresponsible pinheads.
I did not know this. Now I do. Thank you.
| 460 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:36:27pm |
re: #456 transient
For all those who are busy looking this up, LVQ is referring to ectopic pregnancy.
and you are correct.
| 461 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:36:39pm |
re: #445 rollwave87
Glenn Beck may honestly be the dumbest person in America ever to have their own TV show. and thats saying something. John McCain is bad because he would've governed like Teddy Roosevelt??? Hellooo??? Anyone home up there?
Yeah, God forbid we should value things like the FDA and anti-trust legislation. And that whole Panama Canal thing--we'd all be better off if TR hadn't pushed so hard to get that built.
//
| 462 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:36:51pm |
re: #456 transient
For all those who are busy looking this up, LVQ is referring to ectopic pregnancy.
That is true. Atopic is a dermatological term.
| 463 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:37:11pm |
re: #448 SanFranciscoZionist
Bristol was extolled for continuing her pregnancy by an awful lot of people. Oddly enough (yes, my old hobby-horse), by Bill O'Reilly, who had recently condemned the parents of another pregnant teenager as irresponsible pinheads.
With that logic, we are to believe that Bill is the epitome of moral behavior. Sorry, I've known enough Irish-Catholic boys to know different.
| 464 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:37:26pm |
re: #432 Charles
Well, It's Not As Though Powerline Had Any Credibility To Worry About Losing
This is great stuff:
I don't care how far to the right you are. You cannot blogroll those clowns and claim to be at all serious about ideas. They are permanent riders on the Short Bus to Wingnuttia.CJ yawns. JC snickers.
___
[Added] And what the hell, I'll add LGF to my blogroll to help make up for it.
LGF was a little crazy a few years ago, and I probably still disagree with CJ's take on some issues, but to my mind, anyone who skewers hate-filled bigots like Robert Stacey McCain and Dan Reihl as well as Charles Johnson does deserves a shoutout.
Plus, he believes in science, snickers at Glenn Beck, chastises Pat Buchanan, cares about the mess in Texas, and calls out astroturfing teabagger insanity. Imagine that.
All together now, wingnuts: CHARLES JOHNSON IS NOT A REAL CONSERVATIVE!!!1!
| 465 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:37:27pm |
re: #431 Throbert McGee
Uh huh, but what about brain development?
| 466 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:37:29pm |
re: #461 funky chicken
Yeah, God forbid we should value things like the FDA and anti-trust legislation. And that whole Panama Canal thing--we'd all be better off if TR hadn't pushed so hard to get that built.
//
We'd also be better off if Carter hadn't given it away, so that China could get their claws on it.
| 467 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:37:49pm |
re: #403 Dark_Falcon
Well, there are those rumors about you and Spock...
///
Rumours? I've seen the video!
| 468 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:38:02pm |
re: #456 transient
For all those who are busy looking this up, LVQ is referring to ectopic pregnancy.
"atopic" would be like OT, except that instead of being unrelated to the topic, it actually detracts from it. Many weirdos have been posting "atopic" comments lately.
| 469 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:38:08pm |
Dept. of Boating and Waterways
Worked here
Lived around here
| 470 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:38:17pm |
re: #352 iceweasel
BTW, some more wackiness from that Voter Values Summit:
Gentlemen, take note: Apparently, looking at Playboy will make you homosexual. Who knew?
Sen. Tom Coburn’s (R-Okla.) Chief of Staff: ‘All Pornography Is Homosexual Pornography’
Also, Gov Rick Perry, last seen at tea parties advocating secession, urging people to read W. Cleon Skousen.
And though this isn't from the VVS, it's still funny:
Gingrich Group Awards, Then Revokes, Entrepeneurship Award to Porn Studio
(apologies if these have already been mentioned)
Perry is a slug but he's not a moron. If he could prove he actually believes even half of what he says to these knuckle-draggers, I'd pay for his next haircut.
| 471 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:38:33pm |
re: #243 JamesTKirk
Funny, it's the people on the left who are always glorifying the burqa and how "liberating" it is.
I think 'always' might be a slight exaggeration, there.
| 472 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:38:47pm |
re: #455 BryanS
Which is why the good people of ACORN simply feel prostitution is a women's right :) /snark
Frankly, if a women wants to make money that way, she can move to Nevada and do it legally. It's the importation of slaves to increase profits that really got to me.
| 474 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:39:00pm |
re: #431 Throbert McGee
That's pretty rude. Please note I didn't engage in my "mindless lockstep downdinging habit".
| 475 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:39:02pm |
re: #461 funky chicken
Yeah, God forbid we should value things like the FDA and anti-trust legislation. And that whole Panama Canal thing--we'd all be better off if TR hadn't pushed so hard to get that built.
//
Make everything like it was in 1788 when the USS Constertution was ratified!
//Nor Luap!
///
| 476 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:39:26pm |
re: #451 Cato the Elder
Another thing that occurs to me:
The blog owner's job (and hence Charles's) is harder than that of the city paper's letters editor.
The latter gets to decide in advance which pompous asses he's going to print.
The blogger has to go in afterwards and clean up the mess.
Charles, you're a diligent bar owner. And you're your own bouncer. My hat is off my fat, old, gay, bald head.
[penultimate adjective thrown in just for you, IF]
LOL. Nicely put, Cato.
| 477 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:39:40pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
I think 'always' might be a slight exaggeration, there.
No, but I did misplace it in the sentence. It's not that leftists are always doing it, but that the people doing it (apart from Muslims) are always leftists.
| 478 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:39:45pm |
re: #470 shiplord kirel
Perry is a slug but he's not a moron. If he could prove he actually believes even half of what he says to these knuckle-draggers, I'd pay for his next haircut.
I think Senator Hutchinson is in line for the job. She gets my vote over Perry.
| 479 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:41:11pm |
re: #474 Sharmuta
That's pretty rude. Please note I didn't engage in my "mindless lockstep downdinging habit".
Rude but accurate. I was studying and following the whole development process when I was a father-to-be.
| 480 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:41:36pm |
re: #440 Gus 802
Some of it starting to remind me of the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson days. When they were at their height. A lot of that went dormant but it came back. Only now they don't have a single leader like Falwell and Robertson. Perhaps that is the dominion of Perkins and Dobson now.
The Value Voters Summit is an arm of the James Dobson fundamentalist political movement.
And Tony Perkins, the main organizer, is connected to white supremacists.
This is not a good organization, and it's not run by good people.
| 481 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:41:48pm |
re: #434 Charles
Whatever, man. I've given up trying to figure out where you're coming from.
On this issue, I'm definitely coming from the "keep abortion legal at all stages of pregnancy and without even minimal legal restrictions in the first trimester, but don't ever drag the conversation into the gutter by talking about a viable human embryo as though it were a wart" position.
| 482 |
rollwave87 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:42:43pm |
re: #461 funky chicken
Yeah, God forbid we should value things like the FDA and anti-trust legislation. And that whole Panama Canal thing--we'd all be better off if TR hadn't pushed so hard to get that built.
//
I know. I bet Teddy Roosevelt was the marxist who decided to have secret commie propaganda erected in Rock Center. sarc
| 483 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:42:52pm |
re: #433 SanFranciscoZionist
Screw that, says this Jew. It's what you do that counts.
But in the end its your fault! Wait...my too.
| 484 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:42:54pm |
re: #472 ggt
Is it legal in Nevada? Or just not enforced--kinda like 'medical marijuana' in Cali?
Yeah, you know ACORN has corrupted its Marxist ideals when they didn't pause for concern that they were trying to make a profit.
| 485 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:43:04pm |
| 486 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:43:17pm |
Rick Perry, working hard these days on his bible thumpin' populist bona fides. I'm going to work for Kay, she has her baggage after all the years in Washington but Mr. Hairhead has got to go. Venal and creepy besides, he is.
| 487 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:44:27pm |
re: #469 bosforus
Dept. of Boating and Waterways
Worked here
Lived around here
Server seems honked up on this Wi-Fi, map won't zoom in. At any rate pretty close to where I live and walk the lab. Folsom is a fun little town, well not so little these days.
| 488 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:44:27pm |
re: #234 acwgusa
It comes down to the very simple fact that abortion is going to happen, period, regardless of whether or not is is legal or illegal.
I'd prefer it not happen, but if its going to be legal, I'd prefer the woman have the choice to have it in a sterile, hospital environment, rather then a back alley where the mother could bleed to death.
I'd also prefer the state medicaid cover it, as it now is being used as form of birth control.
Whoops. That line should be state medicaid NOT cover it.
You know, that is a falsehood and complete bullshit.
You are better than that, I hope, it's a cheap, stupid talking point that was debunked forever ago. Pleas, pleas don't just spout crap like that, it's just wrong.
| 489 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:44:37pm |
re: #481 Throbert McGee
This is complete crap, Robert. If you think a fetus in its 8th week of development is a viable human embryo, you are hallucinating.
| 490 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:45:45pm |
re: #467 iceweasel
Rumours? I've seen the video!
LOL. That must be from the never shown episode where they finally quit teasing us with their endless sexual tension bullshit and finally got it on ;-)
| 491 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:46:00pm |
re: #487 turn
Server seems honked up on this Wi-Fi, map won't zoom in. At any rate pretty close to where I live and walk the lab. Folsom is a fun little town, well not so little these days.
I jumped into the river off that diving rock by the bridge and I drove up the Folsom Prison road. I'd say I did it all.
| 492 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:47:28pm |
There still are sane Republicans. The Ripon Society, founded in the early 60s by what were then liberal Republicans, is still very much in business. It is very big on the legacy of Theodore Roosevelt, as seen in their Rough Rider award.
The Ripon Society first came to prominence for its intense opposition to Barry Goldwater in 1964. By today's standards, Goldwater himself would be a liberal Republican and would share many of the society's views.
| 493 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:49:04pm |
re: #484 BryanS
Is it legal in Nevada? Or just not enforced--kinda like 'medical marijuana' in Cali?
Yeah, you know ACORN has corrupted its Marxist ideals when they didn't pause for concern that they were trying to make a profit.
There was even one the gubernet took over for back taxes --can't remember the name. Good Story tho.
| 494 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:49:10pm |
re: #489 Charles
This is complete crap, Robert. If you think a fetus in its 8th week of development is a viable human embryo, you are hallucinating.
It's hard to agree it's noting more than a few cells however much you may or may not agree on abortion.
| 495 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:49:46pm |
re: #437 moonflower
Thank you. I seek absolution now for this. I was brought up in the 70's Womens Movement, but in this case it was wrong for me. A cowards way out. I atone by having dogs. I shower them with love and grieve their loss.
I wish I had been stronger. Just me.
Well, as a person who had a couple of different volumes of "Our Bodies, Ourselves," I understand where you're coming from. The fact is that no matter what the feminist movement or the publishers of Cosmo magazine say, women are very different from men in many ways. One of those ways is in our reactions to unplanned pregnancies, among other things. Sadly, our anatomy makes it more likely that we will suffer more severe physical/health consequences from promiscuity, as we are more likely to contract STDs and develop more serious complications from them.
It's not fair, but it's just the way it is.
| 496 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:50:09pm |
re: #479 JamesTKirk
I personally think life begins at conception. It's the moment the entire, amazing process starts. It's not an escapable point in my mind. I don't want to discuss viability issues now or ever on this site. This is too personal for me. I wouldn't have an abortion; I would counsel a friend not to, but I would also stand by her and her decision because it's hers to bear no matter what decision I would bear myself. She doesn't need me to judge her, she needs me to be her friend and understand. And I understand all to well. I don't want them in back street butcher shops.
| 497 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:50:36pm |
Time for me to get some sleeps before the next test window.
Some people bought Roxy Music albums for the cover art, I bought them for the music
| 498 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:50:37pm |
re: #491 bosforus
I jumped into the river off that diving rock by the bridge and I drove up the Folsom Prison road. I'd say I did it all.
ha, yeah I've jumped off that rock too. My buddy got the nerve up to jump off the foot bridge at the confluent on the American. Jeeze that scared the hell out of me!
| 499 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:50:56pm |
re: #400 Sharmuta
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's a completely different mindset concerning male sexuality. Men who have sex are studs, women who have sex are sluts. No one is trying to control male sexuality- not even women. If a man wants a woman to have an abortion, she can tell him to go to hell if that's her choice. And these folks don't advocate a thing about reigning in male sexuality- there is no shame associated with it like there is with women.
Yes--and note how Viagra was quickly approved and covered by insurance. Compare that to how many political battles were fought over the morning after pill.
| 500 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:51:11pm |
re: #404 marjoriemoon
I think he was saying (Lord help me if I actually understood this guy) that pornography makes you turn to loving yourself (masterbating) and that, I guess, means your gay.
ROFL
Wow. My husband is totally gay. I never realized that before.
/
| 501 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:51:41pm |
re: #489 Charles
This is complete crap, Robert. If you think a fetus in its 8th week of development is a viable human embryo, you are hallucinating.
This is true (the "crap" part, not the hallucinating part). In fact, "viable embryo" is really an oxymoron. Only fetuses can become viable.
| 502 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:51:49pm |
re: #259 ~Fianna
Huh?
There was one article on it from Hanna Ardent or some other tool, so now justifiers like this can claim "all lefties" believe.
The intellectual rigor is exhausting./
It's just worthless provoking... you know Kirk, you say lots of interesting things, then this kind of stuff... why? I'll fully cop to missing the humor if it was intended, and sorry, I snark too!
| 503 |
jorline Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:51:56pm |
re: #446 sagehen
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]
[Link: blogs.chron.com...]
From your link
Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"
"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."
Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.
Perry has a big mouth and it's election time here in Texas. NO conservative circles I've talked to here talk about succession...it's bullshit.
| 504 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:52:11pm |
re: #499 transient
Yes--and note how Viagra was quickly approved and covered by insurance. Compare that to how many political battles were fought over the morning after pill.
Again- male sexuality good. Female sexuality shameful.
| 505 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:52:23pm |
re: #484 BryanS
Is it legal in Nevada? Or just not enforced--kinda like 'medical marijuana' in Cali?
It's legal in all of Nevada except Las Vegas.
Also highly regulated; the prostitutes have to pass a medical before they get licensed, then have regular blood tests and their results posted in clear view at their place of business, they lose their license if an undercover inspector catches them agreeing to work without a condom, etc.
| 506 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:53:17pm |
re: #505 sagehen
It's legal in all of Nevada except Las Vegas.
Also highly regulated; the prostitutes have to pass a medical before they get licensed, then have regular blood tests and their results posted in clear view at their place of business, they lose their license if an undercover inspector catches them agreeing to work without a condom, etc.
You can get paid to be an undercover inspector at a brothel?
| 507 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:53:49pm |
re: #506 JamesTKirk
You can get paid to be an undercover inspector at a brothel?
No green ladies tho --well, you could probably request and pay extra.
| 508 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:54:09pm |
re: #481 Throbert McGee
don't ever drag the conversation into the gutter by talking about a viable human embryo as though it were a wart" position.
Having said THAT, I must likewise insist: don't ever drag the conversation into the gutter by saying that an abortion before 12 weeks "kills a baby." (Let alone shit like "murdering unborn children.") It kills an organism that's biologically human, yes, but it's not yet a "baby."
And in fairness to Charles, HIS misleading hyperbole ("nothing more than a few cells") was in response to misleading hyperbole from jamgarr. But as the blog owner, he's the one who's supposed to be setting a better example for Lizard behavior, right?
| 509 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:54:15pm |
re: #506 JamesTKirk
You can get paid to be an undercover inspector at a brothel?
Emphasis was needed.
| 510 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:54:26pm |
re: #499 transient
Yes--and note how Viagra was quickly approved and covered by insurance. Compare that to how many political battles were fought over the morning after pill.
Hmm, interesting point
| 511 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:54:31pm |
re: #504 Sharmuta
Again- male sexuality good. Female sexuality shameful.
That reminds me of how they came up with the clinical term nymphomania. There was never a male version.
| 512 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:55:32pm |
re: #508 Throbert McGee
Having said THAT, I must likewise insist: don't ever drag the conversation into the gutter by saying that an abortion before 12 weeks "kills a baby." (Let alone shit like "murdering unborn children.") It kills an organism that's biologically human, yes, but it's not yet a "baby."
And in fairness to Charles, HIS misleading hyperbole ("nothing more than a few cells") was in response to misleading hyperbole from jamgarr. But as the blog owner, he's the one who's supposed to be setting a better example for Lizard behavior, right?
I totally stand by my statement that the vast majority of abortions in this country are performed long before there is anything more in the womb than a few cells. It's a fact.
| 513 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:55:43pm |
Well, time for me to get off to bed. Lest anybody think the Paulbots couldn't really be crazy enough to hate the FDA:
[Link: www.house.gov...]
| 514 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:55:44pm |
re: #511 Gus 802
I thought that was satyriasis. Maybe not a psychological term, though.
| 515 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:55:54pm |
re: #504 Sharmuta
Again- male sexuality good. Female sexuality shameful.
That Selfish Gene is no friend to women in this case.
| 516 |
avanti Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:55:56pm |
re: #376 JamesTKirk
Looking at naked women leads me to having sex with naked women... Imagine how much of a flaming homosexual that makes me...
I've heard that stumbling on gay porn while searching for the straight stuff is anti Viagra and can lead to the lack of a erection for over 4 hours.
| 517 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:56:25pm |
re: #511 Gus 802
That reminds me of how they came up with the clinical term nymphomania. There was never a male version.
The male version is "satyr".
| 519 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:57:01pm |
The people who are now having the biggest mental meltdowns over "freedom" are the same people who would restrict the freedoms of others in the most radical possible ways.
Do they see a disconnect? Of course not! Gawd is on their side.
Bob Dylan. Latter day Jewish prophet. In the old days he would have been stoned.
| 520 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:57:05pm |
re: #514 jaunte
I thought that was satyriasis. Maybe not a psychological term, though.
Ah, that looks correct. Never gained popular usage though. Now of course it's all called "sexual addiction."
| 521 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:57:26pm |
re: #506 JamesTKirk
You can get paid to be an undercover inspector at a brothel?
Agreeing to work...
So it is all you can see not all you can eat!
Its not that these woman get tested on their performance and endurance...just their health...
| 522 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:57:40pm |
re: #498 turn
ha, yeah I've jumped off that rock too. My buddy got the nerve up to jump off the foot bridge at the confluent on the American. Jeeze that scared the hell out of me!
It seemed like a decent town, just not my cup of tea. A little cow-townish, and I couldn't get past the humidity. But that's not surprising, being from Phoenix and living in Utah where dryness reigns supreme.
| 523 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:58:14pm |
| 524 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:58:23pm |
re: #499 transient
Yes--and note how Viagra was quickly approved and covered by insurance. Compare that to how many political battles were fought over the morning after pill.
Not quite the same - viagra is not birth control. It would be more relevant to compare the pill to birth control for men -- battles have also been fought over condoms, and I'm pretty sure my insurance doesn't cover them.
| 526 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:58:41pm |
re: #511 Gus 802
That reminds me of how they came up with the clinical term nymphomania. There was never a male version.
I was almost afraid to google the term but Wikipedia yielded a scholarly treatment under hypersexuality:
The concept of hypersexuality replaces the older concepts of nymphomania (or furor uterinus) and satyriasis. Nymphomania was believed to be a female psychological disorder characterized by an overactive libido and an obsession with sex. In males the disorder was called satyriasis (for etymology of the words, see nymph and satyr). "Nymphomania" and "satyriasis" are no longer listed as specific disorders in the DSM-IV, though they remain a part of ICD-10.
| 527 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:58:58pm |
re: #503 jorline
Perry has a big mouth and it's election time here in Texas. NO conservative circles I've talked to here talk about succession...it's bullshit.
Yes, of course it is bullshit. This is why I will vote for a Dem in the election if Perry gets the R nod. Scruples of a drug dealer.
| 528 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:58:59pm |
re: #496 Sharmuta
I personally think life begins at conception. It's the moment the entire, amazing process starts. It's not an escapable point in my mind. I don't want to discuss viability issues now or ever on this site. This is too personal for me. I wouldn't have an abortion; I would counsel a friend not to, but I would also stand by her and her decision because it's hers to bear no matter what decision I would bear myself. She doesn't need me to judge her, she needs me to be her friend and understand. And I understand all to well. I don't want them in back street butcher shops.
I don't have that clear cut of an understanding, and except for religious conviction cannot see how people can be so convinced of the exact time a fetus is it's own life. That's why I'm so uncomfortable with abortions--with increasing discomfort the later the abortion occurs. I firmly believe people should have the freedom to live their own lives, and if life wasn't involved, I wouldn't worry about any restrictions. But it ism and I agree with restrictions in late term abortions excepting life of the mother.
| 529 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:59:14pm |
re: #481 Throbert McGee
On this issue, I'm definitely coming from the "keep abortion legal at all stages of pregnancy and without even minimal legal restrictions in the first trimester, but don't ever drag the conversation into the gutter by talking about a viable human embryo as though it were a wart" position.
An embryo is never viable. Once it reaches viability, it becomes a fetus. This happens somewhere between 22 and 25 weeks depending on who you ask. So, up to at least five months, we're talking about a non-viable embryo. And even up to six months viability depends upon access to highly advanced healthcare and a lot of luck.
| 530 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:59:16pm |
| 531 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 8:59:37pm |
re: #511 Gus 802
That reminds me of how they came up with the clinical term nymphomania. There was never a male version.
Hysteria, from Greek hystera, womb. Can't think of a masculine correlate to that, either.
| 532 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:00pm |
re: #464 Jimmah
And JC's post too:
It Isn’t An Ideology, Charles
by John Cole
It is a cult. Consider yourself lucky. You made it out alive.
The comments aren't all favourable to LGF or CJ, but a lot of them are.
Cole's transformation has been interesting to watch over the years, from diehard Bush supporter to Obama voter.
here's where he decided to register Democrat-- something I haven't even done, btw.
[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]
| 533 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:00pm |
re: #519 Cato the Elder
The people who are now having the biggest mental meltdowns over "freedom" are the same people who would restrict the freedoms of others in the most radical possible ways.
Do they see a disconnect? Of course not! Gawd is on their side.
[Video]Bob Dylan. Latter day Jewish prophet. In the old days he would have been stoned.
I would have been too.
*sigh*
| 534 |
funky chicken Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:08pm |
More Ron Paul nutbaggery:
[Link: www.healthfreedomusa.org...]
Yup, damn that TR. Think of all the "health freedom" we could all have if the FDA had never been started! ///
good night!
| 535 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:12pm |
| 536 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:14pm |
re: #508 Throbert McGee
And in fairness to Charles, HIS misleading hyperbole ("nothing more than a few cells") was in response to misleading hyperbole from jamgarr. But as the blog owner, he's the one who's supposed to be setting a better example for Lizard behavior, right?
Can I point out that in addition to this statement, therobert also told Charles "you're just being a sloppy political pundit repeating a slogan you saw on a bumpersticker" and didn't get banned? Contrary to the trigger-happy portrait I've seen when investigating related sites.
| 537 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:00:49pm |
re: #531 transient
Hysteria, from Greek hystera, womb. Can't think of a masculine correlate to that, either.
Women are hysterical. Men are nuts.
| 538 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:01:23pm |
re: #505 sagehen
It's legal in all of Nevada except Las Vegas.
Also highly regulated; the prostitutes have to pass a medical before they get licensed, then have regular blood tests and their results posted in clear view at their place of business, they lose their license if an undercover inspector catches them agreeing to work without a condom, etc.
The inspector is sort of like an FDA guy at the local poultry plant? Do the girls get a seal stamped on them or something? "Inspected and Approved"
| 539 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:00pm |
re: #533 ggt
I would have been too.
*sigh*
Just for your information, that is a very rare version of the song I hadn't heard until just now.
Thing I love about Bob: you could nail a blob of quicksilver to a vertical post before you can fix his image.
| 540 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:06pm |
re: #519 Cato the Elder
Bob Dylan. Latter day Jewish prophet...
...and erstwhile born again Christian.
Not that it matters to me either way.
| 541 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:18pm |
re: #534 funky chicken
More Ron Paul nutbaggery:
[Link: www.healthfreedomusa.org...]Yup, damn that TR. Think of all the "health freedom" we could all have if the FDA had never been started! ///
good night!
Quick Kirk! We've got Ronulans off the port quarter!
| 542 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:22pm |
re: #531 transient
Hysteria, from Greek hystera, womb. Can't think of a masculine correlate to that, either.
And why is it called herpes and not hispes. The sexism in our culture is astounding !
| 543 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:32pm |
re: #458 LudwigVanQuixote
yeah... kind of bizarre too.
I feel deeply sorry for the wife of any man who does not know what a clitoris is.
You may be interested to know (if you don't already) that the Malleus Maleficarium included many pages on the ability of witches to force men to dream about them, and their capacity to magically 'steal' their penises.
The witch hunters would strip the supposed witch and hunt for her 'witches mark' -- the place where her familiar supposedly nursed. Any freckle, mole, scar could be used in this way-- and was.
My favourite story involves one case where they couldn't find anything...and identified her clitoris as the special mark.
The judge who announced that was it, and was unusual and never before seen...had been married 20 years.
| 544 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:33pm |
re: #529 meeshlr
An embryo is never viable. Once it reaches viability, it becomes a fetus. This happens somewhere between 22 and 25 weeks depending on who you ask. So, up to at least five months, we're talking about a non-viable embryo. And even up to six months viability depends upon access to highly advanced healthcare and a lot of luck.
And that's why I get irritated when people try to distort the truth and call a very early term embryo a "viable fetus."
| 545 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:54pm |
re: #512 Charles
I totally stand by my statement that the vast majority of abortions in this country are performed long before there is anything more in the womb than a few cells. It's a fact.
The estimates for the number of cells in an adult would indicate 1 gram of fetus would have about 1.5 bil cells.
[Link: ask.yahoo.com...]
| 546 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:05:27pm |
re: #501 Danny
This is true (the "crap" part, not the hallucinating part). In fact, "viable embryo" is really an oxymoron. Only fetuses can become viable.
My bad for poor word choice with "viable" -- I meant it in the more general sense of "thriving in its current environment" or "likely to survive if not interfered with" or simply "healthy," but Charles and Danny are correct that when the context is pregnancy, "viable" does refer to survival outside the uterus.
So, to restate: let's not speak of a healthy human embryo as though it were a wart -- i.e., a benign tumor with no potential to do anything but grow into a larger wart, or possibly turn malignant.
| 547 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:05:46pm |
re: #532 iceweasel
And JC's post too:
It Isn’t An Ideology, Charles
by John Cole
It is a cult. Consider yourself lucky. You made it out alive.
...[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]
It is good to see that Charles efforts are being noticed and appreciated by non idiotarians in the left, even if some misconceptions about this site still linger. I think this comment in particular is priceless :
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
John,
Have you considered selling survival kits for others who made it out of the cult in time? Or at least putting up an FAQ page with info on how to deal with wingnut withdrawl symptoms, how to fend off attacks by flying monkeys sent by former compatriots with instructions to pluck your eyes out, a glossary and pronunciation guide of DFH terms, handy hints for how to avoid getting the patchouli smell on your clothes, what kind of mustard it is safe to put on your hamburgers, etc.
With luck there might be a growth market in this.
| 548 |
Eclectic Infidel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:05:46pm |
re: #506 JamesTKirk
You can get paid to be an undercover inspector at a brothel?
Why not. If they're inspectors of a state agency, odds are they'd already be on payroll.
| 549 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:07:03pm |
re: #504 Sharmuta
Again- male sexuality good. Female sexuality shameful.
Or, male sexuality real, female sexuality not. When I was in high school we were told that girls only had sex to get approval from boys. What a message to give teenagers! You have no sex drive, it's all about wanting his love...you can see where this one is headed.
| 550 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:07:22pm |
re: #532 iceweasel
And JC's post too:
It Isn’t An Ideology, Charles
by John Cole
It is a cult. Consider yourself lucky. You made it out alive.
The comments aren't all favourable to LGF or CJ, but a lot of them are.
Cole's transformation has been interesting to watch over the years, from diehard Bush supporter to Obama voter.
here's where he decided to register Democrat-- something I haven't even done, btw.[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]
Was that the reason for the intense sometimes twised criticism regarding Cole? That he turned parties and stopped supporting Bush?
Funny because the leader of the cult he speaks of, Glenn Beck, is highly critical and insulting towards Bush. Of course the other cult leaders like Limbaugh and Malkin did their best to not get McCain elected. Then today The Grand Dragon Beck went and said that Obama is better for American then McCain would have been.
Confusing bunch.
| 551 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:07:29pm |
re: #522 bosforus
It seemed like a decent town, just not my cup of tea. A little cow-townish, and I couldn't get past the humidity. But that's not surprising, being from Phoenix and living in Utah where dryness reigns supreme.
Humid? Well yes compared to Phoenix I suppost so. But man try Florida, Texas, or Alabama. Holy crap! Nothing compared to here. Where do you live now.
| 552 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:14pm |
re: #546 Throbert McGee
How about, when does it feel pain? When is it aware? When will it feel like it sucks to stop living? 8 weeks - no. 35 weeks - yes. Where does it go from no to yes? Too much charged stupidity involved in the discussion to even address that question. And that's a shame.
| 553 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:21pm |
re: #538 The Shadow Do
The inspector is sort of like an FDA guy at the local poultry plant? Do the girls get a seal stamped on them or something? "Inspected and Approved"
Kind of CE mark?
Sorry, I am not so in this business - but I ever ask me if there is something like a "good fuck- you should try her!" thing under johns. Maybe on the internet?
Or a kind of ranking-sign at the reception of a brothel?
| 554 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:21pm |
re: #488 doubter4444
I worked for the medicaid system. I have the numbers as compiled by the state statistical office. I can say without a doubt, that is exactly how it is being used.
| 555 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:28pm |
re: #511 Gus 802
That reminds me of how they came up with the clinical term nymphomania. There was never a male version.
Satyriasis. A real word!
| 557 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:09:41pm |
re: #551 turn
Humid? Well yes compared to Phoenix I suppost so. But man try Florida, Texas, or Alabama. Holy crap! Nothing compared to here. Where do you live now.
I know, that's usually the reaction I get when I tell them Sactown was too humid for me. Right now I'm in Provo, UT.
| 558 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:09:51pm |
re: #553 Joshua Cohen
Sorry, I am not so in this business - but I ever ask me if there is something like a "good fuck- you should try her!" thing under johns. Maybe on the internet?
Or a kind of ranking-sign at the reception of a brothel?
Like ebay feedback?
"A+++++++ Would sex her again!!"
| 559 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:09:54pm |
re: #553 Joshua Cohen
Kind of CE mark?
Sorry, I am not so in this business - but I ever ask me if there is something like a "good fuck- you should try her!" thing under johns. Maybe on the internet?
Or a kind of ranking-sign at the reception of a brothel?
Grading:
Prime
Choice
Organic
Free Range
| 561 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:23pm |
re: #555 SanFranciscoZionist
Satyriasis. A real word!
Yep. I saw that in several place now. I suppose I could have found it sooner or later. You just never hear someone say, "That Frank, man, what satyr." Maybe I've heard it with the D&D crowd.
/
| 562 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:11:26pm |
That's 7 so far in this thread.
It's a fanatic magnet.
| 564 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:03pm |
| 566 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:16pm |
re: #554 acwgusa
I worked for the medicaid system. I have the numbers as compiled by the state statistical office. I can say without a doubt, that is exactly how it is being used.
And as if I needed to say this here, all levels of government in the United States keep detailed statistics these days.
| 568 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:29pm |
re: #562 Charles
That's 7 so far in this thread.
It's a fanatic magnet.
To be honest, given the topic, I expected more.
| 571 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:43pm |
re: #558 JamesTKirk
Like ebay feedback?
"A+++++++ Would sex her again!!"
Sadly, this does exist. I don't know about legal brothels, but apparently, according to an article I read, girls, including the very illegal, do get rated on websites.
| 572 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:13:00pm |
| 574 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:13:12pm |
re: #557 bosforus
I know, that's usually the reaction I get when I tell them Sactown was too humid for me. Right now I'm in Provo, UT.
You're at about 4500 ft, really dry. Tahoe makes my nose dry out big time.
| 575 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:13:52pm |
re: #572 cliffster
What's the over and under on ten, meanie? /
Yeah...and what was that about airing her dad issues?
| 576 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:01pm |
| 577 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:30pm |
re: #512 Charles
I totally stand by my statement that the vast majority of abortions in this country are performed long before there is anything more in the womb than a few cells. It's a fact.
Disclaimer: I'm an anal-retentive scientist.
I agree with your basic point but not the detail.
By day five, the embryo already has at least 100 cells and the number increases exponentially.
Half of abortions are performed by eight weeks (0.5") and 90% by 12 weeks (~1.5"). So, most abortions are performed when the embryo is no where near to being viable. Absolutely not viable by any stretch of the definition.
| 578 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:34pm |
re: #570 Sharmuta
What a bunch of flouncing assholes.
People let their emotions get the best of them. I'm gonna stick around a while and challenge anyone when I think they are wrong. Hope thats OK.
| 579 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:59pm |
re: #568 JamesTKirk
To be honest, given the topic, I expected more.
Darn, I keep missing the flounces. This will not help my research. My Flouncometer* is out of whack tonight.
/does no one respect science?
*PP
| 580 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:15:24pm |
re: #556 jorline
And this one really sucks. Jorline was someone who I relied on for sympathy and advice. To see him flounce like that is just sad.
This war on LGF sucks. alot. So I make my plea:
Please read what Charles and iceweasel post. Don't flounce simply because they won't stone the infidel. Give them a chance. Please my friends, don't leave. If you disagree, do so respectfully and sanely.
/impassioned plea for sanity ended
| 581 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:15:27pm |
re: #578 Racer X
People let their emotions get the best of them. I'm gonna stick around a while and challenge anyone when I think they are wrong. Hope thats OK.
Just don't quote them.
| 582 |
Joshua Cohen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:03pm |
Well lizards...nice late evening!
It's 7:15 a.m. here and my bed is calling loud!
(I am more or less on my own payroll so reading while "working" is no big deal)
| 583 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:04pm |
re: #577 meeshlr
Disclaimer: I'm an anal-retentive scientist.
I agree with your basic point but not the detail.
By day five, the embryo already has at least 100 cells and the number increases exponentially.
Half of abortions are performed by eight weeks (0.5") and 90% by 12 weeks (~1.5"). So, most abortions are performed when the embryo is no where near to being viable. Absolutely not viable by any stretch of the definition.
I know -- when I say "a few cells" I'm talking comparatively to the number of cells in a real viable fetus. I didn't mean to imply it was only about 10 cells.
| 584 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:12pm |
| 585 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:53pm |
re: #584 Bagua
Are the floucers quotes truly viable?
They're usually aborted when there are only a few characters.
| 586 |
Kronocide Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:17pm |
re: #577 meeshlr
Half of abortions are performed by eight weeks (0.5") and 90% by 12 weeks (~1.5"). So, most abortions are performed when the embryo is no where near to being viable. Absolutely not viable by any stretch of the definition.
How dare you bring science into the discussion. Science is just a theory!
| 587 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:19pm |
Good night pronunciamento from Cato the Arrogant:
Cato's rules of getting things done. 1) If it can be put off till tomorrow, you may never have to do it at all.
2) The place for everything is where you last dropped it.
3) Neatness doesn't count in heaven.
4) Show me a clean desk, and I'll show you a man without urgent business.
5) Cleanliness is next to OCD.
6) Anything that conflicts with these rules eats into reading time.
7) Tale it easy. Your gun may not clean itself, but shooting it is more fun than futzing around with Hoppe's solvent.
| 588 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:21pm |
re: #583 Charles
I know -- when I say "a few cells" I'm talking comparatively to the number of cells in a real viable fetus. I didn't mean to imply it was only about 10 cells.
Gotcha.
| 592 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:06pm |
Phases of Pregnancy: the facts.
Conceptus: 3-5 weeks gestational age. Conception occurs at week 3. (Gestational age (GA)= menstrual age, which is easier to identify medically than the actual time of conception. Thus health professionals uniformly use GA. Embryonic age is GA-2) At this phase the conceptus is a clump of cells.
Embryonic: 6-10 weeks GA. Major organ development. At 10 wks, the embryo is recognizable as human. As noted above, embryos are uniformly nonviable outside the uterus.
Fetal: 11 wks GA- birth.
Viability is determined by the ability to survive outside the uterus, and given the current state of medical technology, is about 24 weeks.
From: Callen, Ultrasonography in Obstetrics and Gynecology.
| 594 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:32pm |
re: #581 JamesTKirk
Just don't quote them.
Yup.
It's weird to see a bunch of posters just give up like that, AND insult the host of this blog. I do not always agree with Charles; I've down dinged his comments on several occasions (always voiced why). But I totally respect his opinion and understand this is his place so his rules.
| 595 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:43pm |
re: #546 Throbert McGee
My bad for poor word choice with "viable" -- I meant it in the more general sense of "thriving in its current environment" or "likely to survive if not interfered with" or simply "healthy,"...
I assumed that's what you were thinking, Throbert, but your wording was off so I tried to clarify it.
| 596 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:54pm |
re: #589 cliffster
Wow, that was jorline? Shit
Too bad. I have been here 8 years now. I might die, and Charles might somehow decide to throw me out, but I will never flounce.
| 597 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:26pm |
re: #554 acwgusa
I worked for the medicaid system. I have the numbers as compiled by the state statistical office. I can say without a doubt, that is exactly how it is being used.
please show me, I'd be very interested, as abortion as birth control was such a right wing meme.
What are your parameters? One? Two? Three or more?
I honestly, can not believe that any more that a few amoral souls would use abortion as birth control, and it is very charged language.
Please provide links.
Thanks
| 598 |
Kronocide Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:16pm |
re: #587 Cato the Elder
Good night pronunciamento from Cato the Arrogant
"He had delusions of adequacy..."
| 599 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:36pm |
re: #550 Gus 802
Was that the reason for the intense sometimes twised criticism regarding Cole? That he turned parties and stopped supporting Bush?
Funny because the leader of the cult he speaks of, Glenn Beck, is highly critical and insulting towards Bush. Of course the other cult leaders like Limbaugh and Malkin did their best to not get McCain elected. Then today The Grand Dragon Beck went and said that Obama is better for American then McCain would have been.
Confusing bunch.
Well, Cole was a staunch defender of all Bush policies, militantly anti-Bush-criticism, pro-Iraq War, etc as far as I recall.
He gradually became disgusted at some of the antics on teh right. And with Bush.
He got flaming hate from the right for his apostacy, and a bunch of the people on the left said, welcome aboard, what took you so long?
He was always a good read and had a good commentariat, because he's always called bullshit where he sees it, on right and left both. I don't agree with him on everything by any means, but I always liked reading him.
| 600 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:22:38pm |
re: #586 BigPapa
How dare you bring science into the discussion. Science is just a theory!
But but but ... I like theories!
| 601 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:22:47pm |
re: #552 cliffster
How about, when does it feel pain? When is it aware? When will it feel like it sucks to stop living? 8 weeks - no. 35 weeks - yes. Where does it go from no to yes? Too much charged stupidity involved in the discussion to even address that question. And that's a shame.
Upding for that because I totally agree that all those questions are important, especially when talking about legal restrictions on late-pregnancy abortions.
| 602 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:26pm |
One of the things I really hate about these rabid anti-choice people is how they give republicans and pro-lifers like me a bad reputation.
I had a friend who didn't tell me about her abortion until 3 days after she'd had the procedure because she was afraid of what I would say and think of her. I was upset that I wasn't able to be a support to her because of the impression other people left on her mind- that I was like them and not like me. She was correct to think I'd have told her not to do it, but wrong to think I would have withheld my friendship from her because she made a different decision. I wasn't able to come help care for her when she needed it- because these people have no compassion for these women and get all pro-lifers tarred with a fanatic brush. Assholes.
| 603 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:32pm |
re: #592 transient
Conceptus: 3-5 weeks gestational age. Conception occurs at week 3. (Gestational age (GA)= menstrual age, which is easier to identify medically than the actual time of conception. Thus health professionals uniformly use GA. Embryonic age is GA-2) At this phase the conceptus is a clump of cells.
Actually, we've had this discussion here before, and there's no way for doctors to determine the date of the last menstruation apart from asking the mother, who may or may not be able to give an exact date. Other than that, they sometimes estimate the gestational age (and thus the due date) based upon the development of the fetus (using sonagrams, for instance); but this is also only approximate, as feti do not all develop at the exact same rate. Look at the variance in birth weights.
| 604 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:38pm |
re: #580 Dark_Falcon
And this one really sucks. Jorline was someone who I relied on for sympathy and advice. To see him flounce like that is just sad.
This war on LGF sucks. alot. So I make my plea:
Please read what Charles and iceweasel post. Don't flounce simply because they won't stone the infidel. Give them a chance. Please my friends, don't leave. If you disagree, do so respectfully and sanely.
/impassioned plea for sanity ended
You know, you rock
| 605 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:39pm |
re: #589 cliffster
Wow, that was jorline? Shit
Was the jorline flounce the typical "farewell you've changed" message or the angry insult variety? I've not seen so many of the frequent posters with good karma flounce.
| 606 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:55pm |
re: #592 transient
Yeah. I just realized that I had the embryo/fetus timing wrong. Oops. It's been about 19 years (OMG!) since I took that class.
| 607 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:24:04pm |
re: #41 Dark_Falcon
I think one can argue when an embryo becomes a child. But to argue against its humanity? Let's say I break into some place which is breeding California Condors, and I smash some fertilized eggs which were laid minutes before. Besides the obvious property crime, would I have violated the Endangered Species act. I say yes, because what I destroyed where Condors at a very early stage of development.
The same thing goes for abortions, even the earliest terminates human life. I don't know if most are done when the embryo is just a few cells. There is conception, the missed period, the hard decision. All this takes time and development is continuing.
I am against the willful taking of human life at any stage. Talk about a failure to protect the innocent. But most people see that position as extreme. Just as most people feel aborting children who can survive outside the womb is also extreme. If it has developed to that extent there should not be any arguments that it is a child. I'd be happy to have abortions after viability to be declared illegal. Again, I'd like to protect even more innocent lives, but the moral center of the country is not against early abortions. There is nothing wrong with persuading the center to move through argument.
| 609 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:25:40pm |
re: #595 Danny
I assumed that's what you were thinking, Throbert, but your wording was off so I tried to clarify it.
Careful you might get down dinged for clarifying wording that is off here, it just happened to me.
| 610 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:26pm |
| 611 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:26pm |
re: #597 doubter4444
please show me, I'd be very interested, as abortion as birth control was such a right wing meme.
What are your parameters? One? Two? Three or more?
I honestly, can not believe that any more that a few amoral souls would use abortion as birth control, and it is very charged language.
Please provide links.
Thanks
The Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services is the best place to start.
Research, Statistics, Data & Systems
And it isn't a question of amorality, it's that the people these services provided are almost the very last resort. And a lot of people on welfare unfortunately repeat the same destructive cycles, which is why I got out of the front line work.
| 612 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:40pm |
re: #597 doubter4444
please show me, I'd be very interested, as abortion as birth control was such a right wing meme.
What are your parameters? One? Two? Three or more?
I honestly, can not believe that any more that a few amoral souls would use abortion as birth control, and it is very charged language.
Please provide links.
Thanks
How about people I know personally --college graduates (translate --people who should know better)--one had 4 another had 5 abortions. Why, well, I think alcohol had a lot to do with it, but that's just my humble opinion. It's far easier to take care of the issue then to think about it before hand.
I have always said and will continue to say that the issue we should be discussing is contraception. Let's get people thinking before they act.
And realizing that their are shots and impants that work for months. Geez, how easy does science have to make it? The creation of a life just as important as the destruction of a life.
| 613 |
idioma Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:45pm |
re: #9 jamgarr
Nothing changes the fact that abortion is killing a baby.
What about miscarriage? Is that "god" killing a baby?
Since when has our government been in the business of legislating morality?
| 614 |
JamesTKirk Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:28:30pm |
Good night all. Should've been in bed hours ago.
| 615 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:28:58pm |
re: #605 Bagua
Was the jorline flounce the typical "farewell you've changed" message or the angry insult variety? I've not seen so many of the frequent posters with good karma flounce.
I've seen quite a few posters with 'good karma' flouncing. Don't forget that many posters with 'good karma' got that karma from people who are now banned agreeing with their wingnutty bollocks.
| 616 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:29:26pm |
re: #605 Bagua
Was the jorline flounce the typical "farewell you've changed" message or the angry insult variety? I've not seen so many of the frequent posters with good karma flounce.
It was an angry insult. He mocked iceweasel in the usual butthurt way, and then went on to castigate her and Charles for using Media Matters and HuffPo. It's worth noting that the material from those sites posted here has been reprints with links, not commentary by those site's staff and management. He decided based on those sources and Charles' recent posting choices to "stone the unfaithful monkey" and flounce away. Just plain sad.
| 618 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:29:46pm |
re: #599 iceweasel
Well, Cole was a staunch defender of all Bush policies, militantly anti-Bush-criticism, pro-Iraq War, etc as far as I recall.
He gradually became disgusted at some of the antics on teh right. And with Bush.
He got flaming hate from the right for his apostacy, and a bunch of the people on the left said, welcome aboard, what took you so long?He was always a good read and had a good commentariat, because he's always called bullshit where he sees it, on right and left both. I don't agree with him on everything by any means, but I always liked reading him.
Apostasy of the Right! Actually, I remember seeing his name around but it never caught my interest. Isn't he the one the were calling "Juan" Cole as well?
As for agreeing with someone all the time I've found that task to be impossible. Part of the problem is that there are people that will say things to an audience that always agrees. If you're in that audience and say, "now wait a minute," even on one topic, you're immediately cast as an apostate.
There are limits of course with people like Dobson or Perkins with whom I disagree with on most levels. The biggest transgression there is the moralizing value judgments, bombastic pontificating, nosy, anti-personal-liberty, theocracy, xenophobic, homogeneous... rhetoric.
| 620 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:30:27pm |
re: #603 JamesTKirk
Actually, we've had this discussion here before, and there's no way for doctors to determine the date of the last menstruation apart from asking the mother, who may or may not be able to give an exact date. Other than that, they sometimes estimate the gestational age (and thus the due date) based upon the development of the fetus (using sonagrams, for instance); but this is also only approximate, as feti do not all develop at the exact same rate. Look at the variance in birth weights.
I do this for a living.
A common reason that obstetricians order a first trimester ultrasound is to determine dates. First trimester ultrasound is the most accurate method of determining dates precisely because the mother may not remember, or slight bleeding may be misinterpreted as the last menstrual period. Fetuses do develop at different rates depending on factors like maternal nutrition, multiple gestation, tobacco and alcohol use as well as underlying maternal disease. This is why first trimester is more accurate than third trimester ultrasound.
| 621 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:09pm |
Please don't leave me here with all these 'progressives'.
| 622 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:17pm |
re: #613 idioma
What about miscarriage? Is that "god" killing a baby?
Since when has our government been in the business of legislating morality?
Since the James Dobsons and the Jerry Falwells seized on this as a wedge issue, and whipped up their followers with grotesque, misogynistic imagery.
Abortion was the issue that tipped Francis Schaeffer over the edge and changed him from a fairly reasonable fanatic to a dangerous fanatic. And that craziness rapidly spread throughout the religious right, because the corrupt leaders realized they could use it to manipulate the gullible into doing almost anything.
| 623 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:31pm |
re: #602 Sharmuta
...because these people have no compassion for these women and get all pro-lifers tarred with a fanatic brush. Assholes.
Abortion is intensely personal and potentially terribly painful. You are right, this ugly, self righteous, unending debate denies the truth of what individuals must deal with and demeans whatever the decision made. It's life and the political debate be damned. A bit of compassion all around should be granted, but it isn't.
| 624 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:32:22pm |
re: #612 ggt
I have always said and will continue to say that the issue we should be discussing is contraception. Let's get people thinking before they act.
You want people to plan ahead? Are you crazy?
/
| 625 |
turn Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:33:53pm |
| 626 |
Bloodnok Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:34:01pm |
re: #615 Jimmah
I've seen quite a few posters with 'good karma' flouncing. Don't forget that many posters with 'good karma' got that karma from people who are now banned agreeing with their wingnutty bollocks.
Yes. And we're also in the secondary flounce period where people are probably leaving because all of their friends are gone. It's less about the direction of the site than it is they have nobody left to agree with them anymore.
| 628 |
Danny Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:34:21pm |
re: #608 Racer X
Just Awesome!
Is that how it really looks in person? I'd die to see that with my own eyes.
| 629 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:35:07pm |
re: #621 Racer X
Please don't leave me here with all these 'progressives'.
Be careful with that line. But don't worry, I'm still here. And I plan to stay. You and I have to hang on, RX. These flounces will tail off and Charles will eventually be able to open registration again. And when that happens we can get other conservatives to join us here and build up a sane conservative presence. Hang in there, RacerX. Times are tough, and we'll get through them together.
| 630 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:35:52pm |
re: #612 ggt
How about people I know personally --college graduates (translate --people who should know better)--one had 4 another had 5 abortions. Why, well, I think alcohol had a lot to do with it, but that's just my humble opinion. It's far easier to take care of the issue then to think about it before hand.
I have always said and will continue to say that the issue we should be discussing is contraception. Let's get people thinking before they act.
And realizing that their are shots and impants that work for months. Geez, how easy does science have to make it? The creation of a life just as important as the destruction of a life.
Another reason why emergency contraception should be available everywhere without a prescription.
| 631 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:02pm |
re: #613 idioma
What about miscarriage? Is that "god" killing a baby?
That's why miscarriages at 10 weeks are followed by a funeral -- memorial service, burial in consecrated ground, all the ritual that normally attends the death of a human being...
//
| 632 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:02pm |
re: #613 idioma
Governments legislate morality every day. Even the tax code is often argued on a moral basis. When do taxes become confiscatory, and on the other side, our moral obligation to provide comfort and welfare to those who would not survive without. I'm not in favor of many government programs, but I do believe we have a societal obligation to provide health care.
Those who disagree would be right in saying that I want to impose my morality on them.
| 633 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:10pm |
re: #615 Jimmah
I've seen quite a few posters with 'good karma' flouncing. Don't forget that many posters with 'good karma' got that karma from people who are now banned agreeing with their wingnutty bollocks.
Good point.
re: #616 Dark_Falcon
Thanks for the detail. That would be the "offense to orthodoxy angry flounce category." People get angry when their beliefs are questioned.
| 634 |
meeshlr Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:59pm |
re: #630 iceweasel
Another reason why emergency contraception should be available everywhere without a prescription.
And without a anti-abortion pharmacist refuses to sell it.
| 635 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:36pm |
re: #618 Gus 802
Apostasy of the Right! Actually, I remember seeing his name around but it never caught my interest. Isn't he the one the were calling "Juan" Cole as well?
As for agreeing with someone all the time I've found that task to be impossible. Part of the problem is that there are people that will say things to an audience that always agrees. If you're in that audience and say, "now wait a minute," even on one topic, you're immediately cast as an apostate.
There are limits of course with people like Dobson or Perkins with whom I disagree with on most levels. The biggest transgression there is the moralizing value judgments, bombastic pontificating, nosy, anti-personal-liberty, theocracy, xenophobic, homogeneous... rhetoric.
Agreed.
Juan Cole is someone else. This guy.
John Cole is the guy who runs Balloon Juice.
| 636 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:43pm |
re: #632 Ian MacGregor
Those who disagree would be right in saying that I want to impose my morality on them.
You suck, but you honestly suck at least...
| 637 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:46pm |
re: #623 The Shadow Do
Abortion is intensely personal and potentially terribly painful. You are right, this ugly, self righteous, unending debate denies the truth of what individuals must deal with and demeans whatever the decision made. It's life and the political debate be damned. A bit of compassion all around should be granted, but it isn't.
It's as if they think these women make these decisions light-heartedly. Never mind the real pain and anguish they go through- physical, emotional, mental. These women become nothing more than whipping girls to demonize female sexuality. They show them no compassion whatsoever.
| 638 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:57pm |
re: #629 Dark_Falcon
Be careful with that line. But don't worry, I'm still here. And I plan to stay. You and I have to hang on, RX. These flounces will tail off and Charles will eventually be able to open registration again. And when that happens we can get other conservatives to join us here and build up a sane conservative presence. Hang in there, RacerX. Times are tough, and we'll get through them together.
And you still have that machine gun! ;) Hey, I still have my gas guzzling Ford Mustang and the P-51 Mustang "War Machine!"
//
| 639 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:58pm |
| 640 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:38:47pm |
Education, as many have said here, seems a good route to take. As seen here in a worldwide comparison of teen pregnancy rates. Notice where the "crazy liberal Europeans" show up on the list. I'm sure several conclusions can be drawn from these stats. The importance of education is my conclusion.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 641 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:39:08pm |
| 642 |
kutabeach Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:40:31pm |
re: #170 Jetpilot1101
Until there is "definitive proof", why wouldn't you err on the side of life?
| 643 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:40:58pm |
re: #612 ggt
How about people I know personally --college graduates (translate --people who should know better)--one had 4 another had 5 abortions. Why, well, I think alcohol had a lot to do with it, but that's just my humble opinion. It's far easier to take care of the issue then to think about it before hand.
I have always said and will continue to say that the issue we should be discussing is contraception. Let's get people thinking before they act.
And realizing that their are shots and impants that work for months. Geez, how easy does science have to make it? The creation of a life just as important as the destruction of a life.
Good God. I guess I ran with a crowd that was a lot more careful about its birth control.
| 644 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:14pm |
re: #640 bosforus
Education, as many have said here, seems a good route to take. As seen here in a worldwide comparison of teen pregnancy rates. Notice where the "crazy liberal Europeans" show up on the list. I'm sure several conclusions can be drawn from these stats. The importance of education is my conclusion.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
I wish it would work here, but I think nothing but peer pressure and a concerted effort by the hollywood types is going to change behavior in this country.
| 645 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:22pm |
re: #637 Sharmuta
It's as if they think these women make these decisions light-heartedly. Never mind the real pain and anguish they go through- physical, emotional, mental. These women become nothing more than whipping girls to demonize female sexuality. They show them no compassion whatsoever.
Full disclosure, my wife and I decided to have an abortion shortly after our second daughter was born. The most planned for kid ever (vasectomey/vasectomey reversal) followed by the totally unplanned. We regret it. Deeply.
| 646 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:25pm |
re: #629 Dark_Falcon
Be careful with that line. But don't worry, I'm still here. And I plan to stay. You and I have to hang on, RX. These flounces will tail off and Charles will eventually be able to open registration again. And when that happens we can get other conservatives to join us here and build up a sane conservative presence. Hang in there, RacerX. Times are tough, and we'll get through them together.
Anyone who's beliefs and ideas require a chorus and echo chamber reveals their beliefs to be built on a shaky foundation.
| 647 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:42:07pm |
re: #640 bosforus
Education, as many have said here, seems a good route to take. As seen here in a worldwide comparison of teen pregnancy rates. Notice where the "crazy liberal Europeans" show up on the list. I'm sure several conclusions can be drawn from these stats. The importance of education is my conclusion.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Seems that the same countries that are "educated" also decided that having kids is a pain in the arse--so much so that they are not having enough to keep up with their population's death rate.
| 648 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:42:48pm |
re: #646 Bagua
Anyone who's beliefs and ideas require a chorus and echo chamber reveals their beliefs to be built on a shaky foundation.
Hey! Chorus and the Echo Chamber is my backup band!
| 649 |
doubter4444 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:21pm |
re: #612 ggt
How about people I know personally --college graduates (translate --people who should know better)--one had 4 another had 5 abortions. Why, well, I think alcohol had a lot to do with it, but that's just my humble opinion. It's far easier to take care of the issue then to think about it before hand.
I have always said and will continue to say that the issue we should be discussing is contraception. Let's get people thinking before they act.
And realizing that their are shots and impants that work for months. Geez, how easy does science have to make it? The creation of a life just as important as the destruction of a life.
Well, I'd guess I'd place them as Amoral people.
To have an abortion is bad, it does no good to anyone, even if warranted and necessary for a variety of reasons, some of which would not be supported by the pro life contingent.
Two, OK, maybe a mistake, and long long after the first?
Years? Months? Decades?
However, I live in So Cal, and I before that in NYC.
I know very, very few girls/women that had more than two. and even two was really stretching it.
| 650 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:32pm |
re: #621 Racer X
Please don't leave me here with all these 'progressives'.
"Onward, into the darkness; and through the darkness"
-Winston Churchill upon announcing the fall of Singapore, 1942.
| 651 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:59pm |
re: #629 Dark_Falcon
Be careful with that line. But don't worry, I'm still here. And I plan to stay. You and I have to hang on, RX. These flounces will tail off and Charles will eventually be able to open registration again. And when that happens we can get other conservatives to join us here and build up a sane conservative presence. Hang in there, RacerX. Times are tough, and we'll get through them together.
Sorry I did not mean it in a derogatory way. I enjoy the Yin / Yang aspect of LGF. I hate to see people let their emotions drive them away. Stick around and politely voice your opinion. Back it up with facts. Learn. You may influence someone else to see things in a different way, and vice-versa.
| 652 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:17pm |
re: #646 Bagua
Anyone who's beliefs and ideas require a chorus and echo chamber reveals their beliefs to be built on a shaky foundation.
Corollary (not really): Anyone who stands all alone with a "belief" must be worthy of respect, otherwise he would never come forward.
And the possessive of "who" is "whose".
| 653 |
rwmofo Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:29pm |
Dan Rather...just...won't...go...away!
"New York State Supreme Court Justice Ira Gammerman set a December 22 hearing in the case and directed that testimony be taken from witnesses including Sumner Redstone, the 86-year-old chairman of Viacom Inc, which once controlled CBS."
"Rather, 77, sued CBS in 2007 and has filed a separate fraud case against CBS Chief Executive Leslie Moonves and former CBS News President Andrew Heyward over his firing from the network, his home for more than four decades."
Let's get going while we're still young!
"Speaking outside the courthouse, Rather said the case puts "an important principle" at stake: "Are we going to let big corporations and big government decide what we hear and see on the news?""
How about running your stories by an editor, Dan.
| 654 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:31pm |
re: #546 Throbert McGee
My bad for poor word choice with "viable" -- I meant it in the more general sense of "thriving in its current environment" or "likely to survive if not interfered with" or simply "healthy," but Charles and Danny are correct that when the context is pregnancy, "viable" does refer to survival outside the uterus.
So, to restate: let's not speak of a healthy human embryo as though it were a wart -- i.e., a benign tumor with no potential to do anything but grow into a larger wart, or possibly turn malignant.
Fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried (spontaneously aborted), so God or Nature, depending upon your perspective, is far and away the most prolific 'abortionist.'
That being the case, what we are talking about is not an actual present human person, or even a potential future human person (because the word 'potential' carries with it the implication that such potential would be inevitably actualized in the routine course of subsequent events), but a possible future human person. And when the hypothetical rights of a possible future human person come into conflict with the actual rights of an actual present human person, the rights of the latter must logically take precedence in any sane, just and moral universe.
I have previously posted two poems about the coercively antiabortion mindset, and it is obviously time to post them again, which I shall do in my next post.
| 655 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:48pm |
re: #595 Danny
I assumed that's what you were thinking, Throbert, but your wording was off so I tried to clarify it.
Thanks to you (and Charles) for catching me on that -- it was very sloppy of me, and all the worse because I had just scolded Charles over "sloppy language."
And, Charles, getting back to that "just a few cells" phraseology -- I don't believe that an 8-week-old embryo has a soul or that abortion is murder. And I concede that in a loose, figurative way it's reasonable to describe an 8-week-old embryo as being "just a few (billion) cells", because it IS so far from being viable in the can-live-outside-the-uterus sense, and even farther from having even the rudiments of human consciousness.
The problem I have with your phrasing is: based on a lot of anecdotal evidence I've heard from health care professionals, there ARE some women who DON'T regard abortion as an agonizing, gut-wrenching decision, but who treat it as after-the-fact "contraception," and end up being repeat customers for abortion providers. And if you make a habit of using rhetoric like "it's only a clump of cells," what is left to say to these women (and to the men who get them pregnant)? If it's "only a few cells," why NOT use abortion as a convenient back-up plan for each and every "whoopsie!"
| 657 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:45:26pm |
The Fundamentals
"Abortion is murder!", the witch-burners bray
As they kneel on their hard wooden floors to pray
That all the damned heathens will see the light
And be saved from Hell's bondage by bonfire bright
And Cain's crosses glowing in southern night.
Our mothers and sisters and daughters and wives
Are reduced to receptacles, their whole lives
Possessed by one purpose: to nurture cells
More worthy of life, for they might be male
Like Jesus - thus wombs are warped into jails.
Poor Eve is the pattern primordial, damned
By gender, as race consigned sons of Ham
To servitude, their God-burned cross their coal
Complexion, and if one should flee their fold
Love says, "Scourge the body to save the soul."
If knowledge of ethics is primal sin
Then 'teaching all nations' commits again
The error, but teach they must, for their bane
Is difference; they're driven to all souls train
For Heaven, where all seraphs sing the same.
Pastoral Counseling
Her weeping is a tiny, tinny sound
Crawling from the fallen receiver.
Precautions have failed us. We have
A Situation to address. She
Came to me for consolation
A troubled teen unable to
Handle her desires: nor I mine.
Her flesh was firm and ripe
And mine weak.
I have betrayed faith, flock, family
And the trust they and this girlchild
Placed in me. Unable to
Bear this revelation spreading further
I choose my sole recourse, to betray anew
And to embrace iniquity and
Lie with abomination.
I lift the receiver and speak to her
In practiced tones, both balming and commanding.
Go to the clinic, I tell her; I'll pay for it.
And shiver as ghost nails
Rake my back like a lover's clutches:
A dead hare crossing the grave of my convictions.
| 658 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:45:54pm |
re: #643 SanFranciscoZionist
Good God. I guess I ran with a crowd that was a lot more careful about its birth control.
or who just didn't tell you.
I want to wring the necks of the Bill O'Reilly types who think they know they are guilt free, because they never engaged in behavior that led a "girlfriend" to have an abortion. I want to scream "Like they would ever TELL you." G-d, the last thing I would have done is tell some creep that seemed real nice under a cloud of alcohol that I was pregnant.
I (there, but for the grace of G-d go I) never had to make that decision. I can tell you that the girlfriends I had that did rarely told the guy, unless they wanted to have him as part of their lives forever --married or not. They endured the decision making process and the result by themselves.
And let's face it, in their younger years, many guys would have been happier not knowing.
| 659 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:04pm |
re: #635 iceweasel
Agreed.
Juan Cole is someone else. This guy.John Cole is the guy who runs Balloon Juice.
OK, thanks. Frankly I started losing interest with said blogs last year when they started the over the top slandering of John McCain. There was always this nasty anti-atheistic side to it all that always cropped up. I used to like Zo and listened to his pro-life stuff on Youtube (even though I'm technically pro-choice) but I liked a lot of his stand up rants. There was another one too and I forgot his name. Anyway, they both went over to PJ Media and every once in a while they fire up their phobias about atheists. Roger Simon has pulled the same stunt as well.
| 660 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:38pm |
re: #656 Sharmuta
{Shadow Do}
Time for bed. Tears in my eyes.
I do not judge anyone's decision on this matter.
| 661 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:03pm |
re: #343 MandyManners
I'll be a whole lot fucking happier when THE VAGINA HAS AS MUCH PRIVACY AS THE SCROTAL SAC IN POLITICS.
I don't know about that, Mandy. I'm seeing an awful lot of nutbags in the realm of politics these days.
/
Seriously, though, I completely get where you are coming from.
| 662 |
experiencedtraveller Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:26pm |
re: #30 Charles
Absolute bullshit.
The VAST majority of abortions performed in the United States are done when the so-called "baby" is nothing more than a few cells. Not even close to a "baby."
Life begins at conception and science is on my side.
| 663 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:34pm |
re: #647 BryanS
Seems that the same countries that are "educated" also decided that having kids is a pain in the arse--so much so that they are not having enough to keep up with their population's death rate.
Guess they could use some life education, as well. ;) Thanks for the perspective.
| 664 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:45pm |
re: #660 The Shadow Do
Nor do I judge. I wish I knew what to say- I don't. Peace be with you.
| 665 |
The Other Les Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:48:24pm |
Quotes of the Day:
"Murphy doesn't take days off."
-- Davan MacIntire, Something Positive
"Zach, I'm not a violent person but if you try to massage your misfortune into my back, I will smite you like an Old Testament God. F*ck the frogs, we're goin' straight to dead babies and fire from the sky."
-- Ibid.
| 666 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:48:36pm |
re: #662 experiencedtraveller
Life begins at conception and science is on my side.
Round and round we go...where we stop, nobody knows.
Define life.
| 667 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:48:38pm |
.re: #644 ggt
I wish it would work here, but I think nothing but peer pressure and a concerted effort by the hollywood types is going to change behavior in this country.
Part of the problem is that good education is going to require being a lot more honest about human sexuality than we really normally want to be with young people.
| 668 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:49:20pm |
re: #655 Throbert McGee
If it's "only a few cells," why NOT use abortion as a convenient back-up plan for each and every "whoopsie!"
It's absolutely nobody's business but the pregnant woman's. It's simply not right to set yourself up as the arbiter of morality and decide why they made the choice to have an abortion. And this will probably get me labeled even more of a RINO than I already am, but even if you could possibly know for a fact that a woman was using abortion as a method of birth control -- I STILL say it's nobody's business but her own, and nobody has the right to step in and make a judgment on it.
| 669 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:49:24pm |
re: #540 Danny
...and erstwhile born again Christian.
Not that it matters to me either way.
One of the reasons for the imaginary stoning...
| 670 |
Kronocide Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:50:00pm |
The fact that we are asking the question of 'when is it human' shows our humanity. We should continue to ask it because to do so is to value human life.
The contrary, to terminate a pregnancy when the embryo is clearly not viable, is not murder. It is hyperbole. To say it is murder is not to value human life but to force values.
| 672 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:50:29pm |
| 673 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:50:38pm |
re: #647 BryanS
Seems that the same countries that are "educated" also decided that having kids is a pain in the arse--so much so that they are not having enough to keep up with their population's death rate.
I read something today that discussed the idea that the population decline in Europe may not be as severe as previously thought--later childbearing may actually be kicking in and changing the figures.
| 674 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:51:01pm |
re: #645 The Shadow Do
Wow, thanks for trusting the group here with that information. I'm sorry for your struggles.
| 675 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:51:26pm |
re: #661 Slumbering Behemoth
I don't know about that, Mandy. I'm seeing an awful lot of nutbags in the realm of politics these days.
/Seriously, though, I completely get where you are coming from.
and hanging off the bed's of trucks
| 676 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:05pm |
re: #652 Cato the Elder
I am filled with self-loathing in the face of my shameful grammatical mishap.
| 677 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:07pm |
re: #671 Gus 802
Angry dinger at 12:00!
You can almost feel the rage right through the monitor when they start going down the front page dinging everything down as fast as possible.
| 678 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:35pm |
re: #661 Slumbering Behemoth
I don't know about that, Mandy. I'm seeing an awful lot of nutbags in the realm of politics these days.
/
Nutbags...teabags...so hard to tell anymore...
| 679 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:13pm |
re: #677 Charles
You can almost feel the rage right through the monitor when they start going down the front page dinging everything down as fast as possible.
I know. They just down-ding every single article.
It's always people that have never commented for the most part.
| 680 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:33pm |
re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist
I read something today that discussed the idea that the population decline in Europe may not be as severe as previously thought--later childbearing may actually be kicking in and changing the figures.
Interesting--or is it all the recent Muslim immigrants that have large families? Just curious as I do not know the information.
| 681 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:43pm |
re: #678 transient
You teabag with the nutbag. At least, that is what those HALO idjits said.
| 683 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:54:18pm |
re: #664 Sharmuta
Nor do I judge. I wish I knew what to say- I don't. Peace be with you.
My sentiments exactly.
| 684 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:55:01pm |
re: #654 Salamantis
The number is way higher than that, Sal, especially for first-time pregnancies. I don't think that's really material here since the number drops incredibly low after the point where any sane person would say there is a person with rights. But, there are an extremely high number of first-time-pregnancy miscarriages.
| 685 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:41pm |
re: #676 Bagua
I am filled with self-loathing in the face of my shameful grammatical mishap.
Don't let it faze you, grasshopper! Strike back, and overcome the master.
| 686 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:04pm |
Some people just don't like women who are comfortable with their sexuality.
Some have problems with a woman who is comfortable with her dinger.
| 687 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:14pm |
Good evening Lizards!
From a quick review of the 650 (!) posts on this thread and the amount of blood on the water, I'm assuming this a culling thread.
So, first off, can you buy me a pint, Jimmah? I'll take the 7 shilling.
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.
Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life? The human embryo, at various points in its early development, has a tail, gills, and absolutely no forebrain. In fact, until the latter second trimester, the human fetus would not meet the criterion of a head shot human as far as cerebral cortex brain function is concerned.
No human brain function, no human.
Perhaps this is a starting point for a discussion of when human life begins in the womb?
| 688 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:28pm |
re: #680 BryanS
Interesting--or is it all the recent Muslim immigrants that have large families? Just curious as I do not know the information.
No, they said this was independent of the immigrant boom. I don't know all the details, and it seemed to be a very tentative finding. I just thought it was interesting, seeing as I hope to be a (somewhat) older mom myself.
| 689 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:32pm |
re: #685 Cato the Elder
Though you could at least give the master an upding. Instruction demands payment.
Beer, of course, would be better.
| 690 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:07pm |
re: #687 austin_blue
Such a definition should be established by scientists and physicians though. Not by politicians who can change it on a whim.
| 691 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:31pm |
re: #690 ArchangelMichael
Such a definition should be established by scientists and physicians though. Not by politicians who can change it on a whim.
What does that mean?
| 692 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:46pm |
re: #685 Cato the Elder
Don't let it faze you, grasshopper! Strike back, and overcome the master.
That's just it Cato, I take pride in my self image as a cranky grammarian, that is now shattered. I am unworthy.
| 693 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:58pm |
re: #655 Throbert McGee
Thanks to you (and Charles) for catching me on that -- it was very sloppy of me, and all the worse because I had just scolded Charles over "sloppy language."
And, Charles, getting back to that "just a few cells" phraseology -- I don't believe that an 8-week-old embryo has a soul or that abortion is murder. And I concede that in a loose, figurative way it's reasonable to describe an 8-week-old embryo as being "just a few (billion) cells", because it IS so far from being viable in the can-live-outside-the-uterus sense, and even farther from having even the rudiments of human consciousness.
The problem I have with your phrasing is: based on a lot of anecdotal evidence I've heard from health care professionals, there ARE some women who DON'T regard abortion as an agonizing, gut-wrenching decision, but who treat it as after-the-fact "contraception," and end up being repeat customers for abortion providers. And if you make a habit of using rhetoric like "it's only a clump of cells," what is left to say to these women (and to the men who get them pregnant)? If it's "only a few cells," why NOT use abortion as a convenient back-up plan for each and every "whoopsie!"
I was a NOW clinic escort in Pensacola, Florida, site of three 'pro-life' murders, and nearly a dozen clinic bombings, for many years. I shielded these women from blows from wooden-handled placards aimed at them by the antiabortion pickets, absorbing them myself instead. And for my efforts of aid and compassion, antiabortionists phoned me with hundreds of death threats, surveilled my home, sabotaged my car, tailed me around town, and hung our family cat with a noose around its neck from a backyard tree, with a note safety-pinned to its belly reading "YOU'RE NEXT, BABY KILLER!"I talked personally with many of these women, and this is what I learned.
The vast majority of women do not take the decision to obtain an abortion cavilierly or lightly. For them, it is not like casually deciding to have highlights applied at a beauty parlor. It is an excruciatingly agonizing decision, reached after much painful and prayerful meditation and discussion with their loved ones.
But once that decision has been made, a large percentage of women are committed to it with all the desperate ferocity of an animal that chews its paw off to escape a trap. If these women could not walk into a clinic and obtain the procedure from a trained professional in sanitary circumstances, they would resort to back-alley butchers, drinking toxic homemade concoctions, throwing themselves down stairs, having friends punch them in the stomach, or vasginally impaling themselves with knitting needles or coat hangars. Just like they did in droves before abortion became legal in the US, ending up in toxically infected in ERs and bled out inmorgues in the process.
| 694 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:00:08pm |
re: #686 Sharmuta
Some people just don't like women who are comfortable with their sexuality.
Some have problems with a woman who is comfortable with her dinger.
The real problem comes when her dinger is bigger than mine.
| 695 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:00:25pm |
Someone on Facebook just told me I'm insufferable.
Could you old-timers please provide references, so I can establish the truth of her assertion?
I can't let such accolades go without credible testimony.
| 696 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:00:36pm |
re: #684 cliffster
The number is way higher than that, Sal, especially for first-time pregnancies. I don't think that's really material here since the number drops incredibly low after the point where any sane person would say there is a person with rights. But, there are an extremely high number of first-time-pregnancy miscarriages.
A pregnancy is a huge allocation of resources. It makes sense for the body to be choosy about what it selects to invest in.
Still, to my sentimental mind, a sad kind of thought.
| 697 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:00:56pm |
re: #690 ArchangelMichael
Such a definition should be established by scientists and physicians though. Not by politicians who can change it on a whim.
...politicians who vie for the votes of people waving signs and dancing frantically in the streets.
| 698 |
experiencedtraveller Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:01:39pm |
Such anti-scientific contortions!
Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote.
Source: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1
| 699 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:01pm |
re: #689 Cato the Elder
Though you could at least give the master an upding. Instruction demands payment.
Beer, of course, would be better.
Yes of course, though wallowing in self-pity comes first, then comes the upding.
| 700 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:06pm |
re: #687 austin_blue
Good evening Lizards!
From a quick review of the 650 (!) posts on this thread and the amount of blood on the water, I'm assuming this a culling thread.
So, first off, can you buy me a pint, Jimmah? I'll take the 7 shilling.
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.
Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life? The human embryo, at various points in its early development, has a tail, gills, and absolutely no forebrain. In fact, until the latter second trimester, the human fetus would not meet the criterion of a head shot human as far as cerebral cortex brain function is concerned.
No human brain function, no human.
Perhaps this is a starting point for a discussion of when human life begins in the womb?
Except for Terry Shiavo, right? Not that I'm saying the wingnuts who took up that case were right, but the fact is, there isn't agreement on what life is.
| 701 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:39pm |
re: #691 austin_blue
What does that mean?
Just that I think it's better for experts who by definition aren't (or should not be anyway) anti-science kooks to decide it than politicians with an agenda or axe to grind.
| 702 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:31pm |
re: #697 cliffster
...politicians who vie for the votes of people waving signs and dancing frantically in the streets.
Exactly.
| 703 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:32pm |
re: #696 SanFranciscoZionist
A pregnancy is a huge allocation of resources. It makes sense for the body to be choosy about what it selects to invest in.
Still, to my sentimental mind, a sad kind of thought.
I can't count the number of friends, nieces, etc from whom I've gotten excited phone calls about their pregnancy. And then, not too much later, a tearful one about how it ended. It's awful. The good news is, there's almost always another excited phone call a few months later.
| 704 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:39pm |
re: #700 BryanS
Except for Terry Shiavo, right? Not that I'm saying the wingnuts who took up that case were right, but the fact is, there isn't agreement on what life is.
Terry Schiavo was dead as a boot. Sorry, that's not life.
| 705 |
The Other Les Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:49pm |
One thing that I have noticed on the occasions where I have to drive my Taxi Cab through the campus of the University of Minnesota is that virtually all of the students and most of the nominal adults DO NOT LOOK TO EITHER SIDE TO CHECK FOR ONCOMING TRAFFIC WHEN CROSSING THE STREET.
This makes the process of driving through the campus rather interesting.
| 706 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:04:08pm |
re: #687 austin_blue
I don't really want to discuss this, but you can't get to higher brain functions without conception. Is it viable from conception? Obviously not. Perhaps there is a distinction to be made between when life starts and when viable life starts?
That's about all I really want to say on the matter.
| 707 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:04:09pm |
re: #688 SanFranciscoZionist
No, they said this was independent of the immigrant boom. I don't know all the details, and it seemed to be a very tentative finding. I just thought it was interesting, seeing as I hope to be a (somewhat) older mom myself.
They need the higher birth rate--to pay for their socialized medicine. Medicine keeps advancing the age at which child birth can hapen.
| 709 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:05:31pm |
| 710 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:06pm |
re: #662 experiencedtraveller
Many years go, in my invertebrate zoology class at one of Canada's leading universities, the lab was on the porifera, AKA sponges.
As part of the lab we watched egg and sperm unite. IIRC this is more easily seen in sponges. The lab text indicated that this was the beginning of life. This was a secular university. It was not revealing a revelation from God, but rather stating a worldly fact.
| 711 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:19pm |
re: #701 ArchangelMichael
Just that I think it's better for experts who by definition aren't (or should not be anyway) anti-science kooks to decide it than politicians with an agenda or axe to grind.
Sadly "experts" don't make public policy. When you say that "others" should decide, you are using it as an excuse to not state what *you* believe. C'mon, get your ass out there! What do *you* think?
| 712 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:24pm |
re: #704 austin_blue
Terry Schiavo was dead as a boot. Sorry, that's not life.
You and I agree, but any difference in belief on that question will illicit a strong response when someone thinks a life is being taken.
| 713 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:35pm |
There will probably be some really spectacular overnight flounces after this thread.
It's just astounding to me that any rational human being could possibly take the side of this Lila Rose and her weird medieval revenge fantasy. But there we have it.
| 714 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:23pm |
re: #705 The Other Les
One thing that I have noticed on the occasions where I have to drive my Taxi Cab through the campus of the University of Minnesota is that virtually all of the students and most of the nominal adults DO NOT LOOK TO EITHER SIDE TO CHECK FOR ONCOMING TRAFFIC WHEN CROSSING THE STREET.
This makes the process of driving through the campus rather interesting.
UW Madison, as well. It's an obstacle course.
| 715 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:33pm |
re: #690 ArchangelMichael
Such a definition should be established by scientists and physicians though. Not by politicians who can change it on a whim.
This is not a binary issue. Fetal development is a process. You cannot realistically say something is "not alive" one day and is "alive" the next. The only current medical binary issue is viability: is the fetus able to survive on its own (or with assistance of current technology) outside the uterus?
And in any case, if science did come to a conclusion, what makes you think that "pro-life" advocates would accept it? Any more than creationists accept the fact of scientific evolution?
| 716 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:08:54pm |
re: #705 The Other Les
One thing that I have noticed on the occasions where I have to drive my Taxi Cab through the campus of the University of Minnesota is that virtually all of the students and most of the nominal adults DO NOT LOOK TO EITHER SIDE TO CHECK FOR ONCOMING TRAFFIC WHEN CROSSING THE STREET.
This makes the process of driving through the campus rather interesting.
I thought that was the rule on college campusus -- "Don't Look", I swear I saw signs that said that.
:)
| 717 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:26pm |
re: #654 Salamantis
Fully a third of pregnancies are miscarried (spontaneously aborted), so God or Nature, depending upon your perspective, is far and away the most prolific 'abortionist.'
Yeah, but most of the miscarriages in that 1/3 occur in the first trimester, because of massive genetic defects -- in other words, God (or Nature) is not "electively aborting" otherwise healthy embryos, for the most part.
How do I know this? Because the "1/3" figure is an estimate based on extrapolating from another estimate, namely the rate at which lethal chromosomal miscounts and other severe genetic problems are presumed to occur. (And you can make a good approximation of how often these lethal abnormalities occur by looking at the rate of non-lethal abnormalities, such as Down Syndrome.)
Of course, healthy embryos can sometimes spontaneously miscarry because of health problems experienced by the mother; and sometimes miscarriages happen that are not explainable by abnormal health conditions in either the embryo/fetus or the mother.
However, the BULK of that 1-in-3 natural miscarriage rate is accounted for by chromosome duplications/deletions and other MAJOR problems in the embryo.
| 718 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:42pm |
re: #705 The Other Les
One thing that I have noticed on the occasions where I have to drive my Taxi Cab through the campus of the University of Minnesota is that virtually all of the students and most of the nominal adults DO NOT LOOK TO EITHER SIDE TO CHECK FOR ONCOMING TRAFFIC WHEN CROSSING THE STREET.
This makes the process of driving through the campus rather interesting.
I'm a traffic engineer and work closely with UDOT frequently (Utah DoT). One particular crosswalk (not at an intersection but it crosses a busy street at a convenient location) near the BYU campus has gone back and forth between existing and not existing. What it comes down to is, you can have all the flashing warning lights, crosswalks, flags, and reflective street markings available to man and they make no difference if kids don't take out their head phones, stop texting, and just look before crossing a street. Currently, there is no crosswalk due to liability, and I anectodally "learned" that not having a crosswalk at such locations is safer than a crosswalk. If there's no crosswalk, people actually think there's danger.
| 719 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:55pm |
Lets bring back the stocks while we're at it.
| 720 |
Bloodnok Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:05pm |
Good night, folks. Despite the number of flounces there will always be a strong contingent of folks (like me) who care about the site. Lizards have always prided themselves on the fact that this site is the home to honest debate. The people that are leaving are the ones that are either not able to hold up their end of that debate or never wanted debate in the first place. There are plenty of places for people like that to go to.
They can leave LGF to the grown-ups who are not afraid to have their beliefs challenged once in awhile and will defend them if needed instead of throwing their toys out of the pram and running away.
| 721 |
The Other Les Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:23pm |
re: #709 ArchangelMichael
Because they are all Spayshal Snowflakes and you are to cater to them!
/
re: #714 BryanS
UW Madison, as well. It's an obstacle course.
When I was in the Army some of us would joke that a lobotomy was part of the process of becoming a Second Lieutenant.
Given that all commissioned officers have to obtain a degree somewhere the joke isn't really that far off the mark.
| 722 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:37pm |
And the really disgusting development of the day -- Hot Air is allowing white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain to post his vicious attacks against me at their site, including a link to the stalker blog run by psychotics.
If I gave a shit, I'd probably be angry. But I don't expect anything more from them at this point, so I'm just vaguely nauseated.
| 723 |
experiencedtraveller Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:42pm |
Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity
Source: Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29.
| 724 |
avanti Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:53pm |
re: #621 Racer X
Please don't leave me here with all these 'progressives'.
Don't worry, you'll still get free beer.:)
| 725 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:56pm |
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
| 726 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:04pm |
re: #718 bosforus
Funny how liability works sometimes. It's apparently also risky to put up cameras unless you are going to cover every nook and cranny--doing it part way exposes you to giving a false sense of safety to a potential crime victim.
Did I mention lawyer suck?
| 727 |
acwgusa Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:23pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Ghosts, man.
| 728 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:52pm |
re: #706 Sharmuta
I don't really want to discuss this, but you can't get to higher brain functions without conception. Is it viable from conception? Obviously not. Perhaps there is a distinction to be made between when life starts and when viable life starts?
That's about all I really want to say on the matter.
Sharm-
I understand, and I totally sympathize. So I will address the rest of the crowd:
Dear crowd:- Here's the thing. If I buy a lottery ticket, am I a winner? Now, the odds of my winning are vastly less than a fertilized ovum being born a healthy baby, but the argument remains the same. What do you think the chances are?
How about 50%? That's the best guess among researchers. Maybe a little higher, maybe a little lower. That's 30% that don't implant and around 20% that "spontaneously abort" during the first trimester. (Gentler people refer to this as an "early term miscarriage").
| 729 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:14:24pm |
re: #645 The Shadow Do
Full disclosure, my wife and I decided to have an abortion shortly after our second daughter was born. The most planned for kid ever (vasectomey/vasectomey reversal) followed by the totally unplanned. We regret it. Deeply.
It is far better to regret a decision that you were freely able to make for yourselves than to regret the fact that the State stole from you the right to make it in the first place. And regret can go both ways.
When her birth control failed, my ex-wife was talked by her commanding officer into carrying an accidental and unwanted pregnancy to term and offering it up for adoption when she was in the US military, before we ever met. The moment abortion was no longer an option, this selfsame CO denounced her as a whore and a strumpet before the entire unit. Meanwhile, other military personnel in her unit were having abortions and suffering no such social and professional consequences.
More than 30 years later, she still has nightmares abourt running into that child, deeply regrets not having an abortion, and loathes and despises the hypocritically self-righteous SOB who talked her out of doing what she had planned to do in the first place and then viciously attacked her in front of her fellow personnel.
| 730 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:15:06pm |
re: #698 experiencedtraveller
Such anti-scientific contortions!
Source: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1
It is a complex issue with many dimensions; religious, scientific, moral, philosophical...
It is above my pay grade to offer any certainty beyond a deeply held personal belief that it is wrong for a human to interrupt a potential human life after conception - whatever it may physically be at that point - unless the mother's life is in danger.
| 731 |
sagehen Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:15:28pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Your battery is running low.
| 732 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:15:56pm |
re: #722 Charles
And the really disgusting development of the day -- Hot Air is allowing white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain to post his vicious attacks against me at their site, including a link to the stalker blog run by psychotics.
If I gave a shit, I'd probably be angry. But I don't expect anything more from them at this point, so I'm just vaguely nauseated.
Ah, so now one can go to Hot Air and go to white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain site to a stalker blog that supports war criminal Milosevic.
Hot Air, one, two clicks away from extremists.
| 733 |
The Other Les Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:13pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Well, if I wasn't in a career field that mandates drug testing I would smoke a full joint and then shout out, "ITS A CONSPIRACY, MAN!"
| 734 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:18pm |
re: #662 experiencedtraveller
Life begins at conception and science is on my side.
But personhood doesn't.
| 735 |
The Other Les Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:17:14pm |
| 736 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:17:36pm |
re: #686 Sharmuta
Some people just don't like women who are comfortable with their sexuality.
Some have problems with a woman who is comfortable with her dinger.
Not this feller. I wish that women were more comfortable with their sexuality than they currently are (on average).
| 737 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:17:41pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Check for spiders, they get inside and their little webs cause false alarms.
| 738 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:17:55pm |
re: #726 BryanS
Thinking in terms of liability is quite cumbersome. Unless, of course, I'm thinking about covering my own arse. Then it comes quite naturally.
| 739 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:18:40pm |
re: #731 sagehen
Your battery is running low.
Nope, no battery, it's on electric circuit.
Looks like there's a bug in there.
| 740 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:19:11pm |
re: #732 Gus 802
If that's not enough, you could always tune in to Micheal Savage's radio program and listen to his support of (apparently both during and after) Russia's invasion of Georgia last year.
| 741 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:19:31pm |
re: #729 Salamantis
I remember you telling that story before, and I'll say that's a terrible way for a person to be treated. People who believe our world is a basically good place are challenged by that every step. I don't know anything really about the situation, but perhaps if she hadn't been treated so miserably, her regrets wouldn't be so strong?
| 742 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:20:36pm |
re: #737 Bagua
Check for spiders, they get inside and their little webs cause false alarms.
A web of lies!
//
| 743 |
Racer X Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:20:57pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Ghosts are smoking weed in your living room.
| 744 |
Gus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:21:07pm |
re: #740 Fenway_Nation
If that's not enough, you could always tune in to Micheal Savage's radio program and listen to his support of (apparently both during and after) Russia's invasion of Georgia last year.
There was some other affiliated nutter site referring to Michael Savage that I came across this morning.
| 745 |
lostlakehiker Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:21:42pm |
re: #628 Danny
Is that how it really looks in person? I'd die to see that with my own eyes.
Yes, only way cooler. It fills the sky rather than just being a picture. And the curtains and other features move and curl. It's like watching a huge fire up close, only without the heat and danger, and everything is in slow motion and in cool colors.
| 746 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:21:49pm |
re: #741 cliffster
I remember you telling that story before, and I'll say that's a terrible way for a person to be treated. People who believe our world is a basically good place are challenged by that every step. I don't know anything really about the situation, but perhaps if she hadn't been treated so miserably, her regrets wouldn't be so strong?
Our world isn't basically good. Its default mode is bad. We have to work to make it good. IMO
| 747 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:22:11pm |
And, with my upding of Salamantis, I'm officially questioning reality. /
| 748 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:22:14pm |
re: #735 The Other Les
As a concept?
Well, as the poster I was replying to, the reason for concern about putting a cross walk in place on a campus was concern about liability due to pedestrians thinking it was safer. Only a lawyer would make that argument.
Obviously the law is necessary, and needs to be precise. But the profession requires throwing common sense out the window sometimes to come to the meaning of the letter of the law.
| 749 |
Liberal Classic Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:23:19pm |
re: #662 experiencedtraveller
Life begins at conception and science is on my side.
Our haploid gametes (ova and spermatozoa) are themselves living, metabolizing cells. Life begins before conception?
| 750 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:23:49pm |
re: #720 Bloodnok
Good night, folks. Despite the number of flounces there will always be a strong contingent of folks (like me) who care about the site. Lizards have always prided themselves on the fact that this site is the home to honest debate. The people that are leaving are the ones that are either not able to hold up their end of that debate or never wanted debate in the first place. There are plenty of places for people like that to go to.
They can leave LGF to the grown-ups who are not afraid to have their beliefs challenged once in awhile and will defend them if needed instead of throwing their toys out of the pram and running away.
Well said. Good riddance I say.
re: #722 Charles
And the really disgusting development of the day -- Hot Air is allowing white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain to post his vicious attacks against me at their site, including a link to the stalker blog run by psychotics.
If I gave a shit, I'd probably be angry. But I don't expect anything more from them at this point, so I'm just vaguely nauseated.
Most of the blogosphere are proving themselves far inferior to the lazy, biased hacks of the MSM they so despise and love to ridicule. Their blogo-biases are different, but their professional standards are lower. "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
| 751 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:24:14pm |
| 752 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:25:16pm |
re: #708 Jimmah
Song for the flouncers
(hat tip: Slumbering Behemoth) :
[Video]
I'll pass the hat tip to Kragar, who turned me on to that tune. Um... Could I have a beer instead?
| 753 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:25:37pm |
re: #668 Charles
And this will probably get me labeled even more of a RINO than I already am, but even if you could possibly know for a fact that a woman was using abortion as a method of birth control -- I STILL say it's nobody's business but her own, and nobody has the right to step in and make a judgment on it.
Of course you have the right to make a judgment. That doesn't mean you have the right to physically obstruct her from getting the abortion, nor to ask the gummint to be your proxy in obstructing her.
But you have a right (and maybe a certain degree of moral obligation) to "make a judgment" about the intelligence, sanity, and/or personal character of a woman who used abortion as birth control, just as one can make a judgment about straight men who won't take personal responsibility for contraception, and just as one can make a judgment about gay men who freely choose to "bareback" outside of totally monogamous relationships, and just as one can make a judgment about motorcyclists who ride without a helmet.
(This is Libertarianism 101 -- the right to economic boycott and the right to socially ostracize are vitally important precisely because there's no such thing as a right to control other people's behavior via government coercion.)
| 755 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:26:45pm |
re: #711 austin_blue
Sadly "experts" don't make public policy. When you say that "others" should decide, you are using it as an excuse to not state what *you* believe. C'mon, get your ass out there! What do *you* think?
I am not a medical professional or a scientist in a biological field. It would just be talking out of my ass for me to express a strong opinion about the point where "life begins" as far as the abortion issue is concerned. What I do think is if you give 535 mostly non-doctors the power to decide a medical issue, there's a good chance you wont like the result. They can, however delegate policy on the issue by law to a more appropriate panel of doctors.
Bottom line what I'm saying is that I'm not comfortable giving the government the power to arbitrarily decide when life begins and ends with little or no input from medical professionals. Congress members often have noodles for spines. They have to face loud mouth activists (pro/anti/left/right/whatever) with signs that show up at their offices and town hall meetings.
They could say life begins at conception, they could say 12 weeks, they could say anything. They can change it when ever they feel like it. They could, by fiat, ban abortion entirely and force people in Terry Schiavo's condition to be kept alive on artificially indefinitely for example. Viability should be left to the medical profession to determine.
If you insist on pushing me for an opinion, I'm ok with abortions throughout the first trimester and after for emergency reasons but like I said, I am not a doctor, not in the government, and I don't have a uterus so I am not in much of a position to have a weight-holding opinion.
| 756 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:28:18pm |
re: #704 austin_blue
Terry Schiavo was dead as a boot. Sorry, that's not life.
Deader. A boot responds to envirnonmental stimuli, for example giving to accommodate changed foot shape.
| 757 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:29:21pm |
re: #754 SanFranciscoZionist
Fare thee well, Zionist of the hilly, peninsular Northern California metropolitan area persuasion!
| 758 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:30:02pm |
re: #741 cliffster
I remember you telling that story before, and I'll say that's a terrible way for a person to be treated. People who believe our world is a basically good place are challenged by that every step. I don't know anything really about the situation, but perhaps if she hadn't been treated so miserably, her regrets wouldn't be so strong?
Her regrets about carrying the pregnancy to term, being talked into doing so when she didn't want to, and being subsequently betrayed and excoriated for taking advice against her better judgment, are interrelated, but distinct regrets.
The nightmares about running into the child would not, I think, have been nonexistent had she not suffered that odious CO's betrayal. Nor would her regret about carrying her pregnancy to term - the source of her nightmares - have been reduced. All decent and discretionary treatment by her execrable CO would have done is not give her a reason to hate him for his heinous betrayal of confidence.
| 759 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:30:39pm |
re: #725 transient
Over 700 posts and still no one has answered one of the deepest mysteries of the universe:
Why does my smoke detector always go off (false alarm) in the middle of the night?
Because you touch yourself at night. No, wait, that's why SpaceJesus cries. Neve rmind.
| 760 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:31:09pm |
re: #755 ArchangelMichael
I am not a medical professional or a scientist in a biological field. It would just be talking out of my ass for me to express a strong opinion about the point where "life begins" as far as the abortion issue is concerned. What I do think is if you give 535 mostly non-doctors the power to decide a medical issue, there's a good chance you wont like the result. They can, however delegate policy on the issue by law to a more appropriate panel of doctors.
[snip]
So are you in favor of, or opposed to death panels? ... /sarc
Sorry. Had to.
| 761 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:31:51pm |
re: #749 Liberal Classic
Our haploid gametes (ova and spermatozoa) are themselves living, metabolizing cells. Life begins before conception?
That's the 'Every Sperm Is Sacred" Monty-Python-mocked position.
| 762 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:32:13pm |
re: #760 BryanS
So are you in favor of, or opposed to death panels? ... /sarc
Sorry. Had to.
GAZE!!!11!
/lol
| 763 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:32:29pm |
re: #755 ArchangelMichael
I am not a medical professional or a scientist in a biological field. It would just be talking out of my ass for me to express a strong opinion about the point where "life begins" as far as the abortion issue is concerned. What I do think is if you give 535 mostly non-doctors the power to decide a medical issue, there's a good chance you wont like the result. They can, however delegate policy on the issue by law to a more appropriate panel of doctors.
Bottom line what I'm saying is that I'm not comfortable giving the government the power to arbitrarily decide when life begins and ends with little or no input from medical professionals. Congress members often have noodles for spines. They have to face loud mouth activists (pro/anti/left/right/whatever) with signs that show up at their offices and town hall meetings.
They could say life begins at conception, they could say 12 weeks, they could say anything. They can change it when ever they feel like it. They could, by fiat, ban abortion entirely and force people in Terry Schiavo's condition to be kept alive on artificially indefinitely for example. Viability should be left to the medical profession to determine.
If you insist on pushing me for an opinion, I'm ok with abortions throughout the first trimester and after for emergency reasons but like I said, I am not a doctor, not in the government, and I don't have a uterus so I am not in much of a position to have a weight-holding opinion.
I'll repost this from upthread. It is a basic challenge to your beliefs. Make a stand!
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.
Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life? The human embryo, at various points in its early development, has a tail, gills, and absolutely no forebrain. In fact, until the latter second trimester, the human fetus would not meet the criterion of a head shot human as far as cerebral cortex brain function is concerned.
No human brain function, no human.
Perhaps this is a starting point for a discussion of when human life begins in the womb?
| 764 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:34:38pm |
re: #758 Salamantis
Either way, it's an outrageous way for someone to be treated, and a good story to illustrate the complexity of the topic.
| 765 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:35:00pm |
re: #756 Cato the Elder
Deader. A boot responds to envirnonmental stimuli, for example giving to accommodate changed foot shape.
And your position on this opinion? (yes, I am pushing the envelope tonight):
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.
Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life? The human embryo, at various points in its early development, has a tail, gills, and absolutely no forebrain. In fact, until the latter second trimester, the human fetus would not meet the criterion of a head shot human as far as cerebral cortex brain function is concerned.
No human brain function, no human.
Perhaps this is a starting point for a discussion of when human life begins in the womb?
| 766 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:35:07pm |
re: #749 Liberal Classic
A single gamete is not going to develop into anything. If I slough off live skin cells when washing, few people would think I had committed an immoral act. A Janist might complain about the mass killing of bacteria.
Now, if humans were aphids, and parthenogenesis was well proven, then you have a stronger point.
| 767 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:36:57pm |
re: #763 austin_blue
Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life?
The answer to that is simple: it's not in the interest of the religious right to ever agree to that kind of definition, and they will fight like cornered animals to prevent it ever coming to pass. The abortion issue is their strongest hold over their "flocks," and they'll never give up the power that comes with it.
| 768 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:37:59pm |
re: #693 Salamantis
But once that decision has been made, a large percentage of women are committed to it with all the desperate ferocity of an animal that chews its paw off to escape a trap. If these women could not walk into a clinic and obtain the procedure from a trained professional in sanitary circumstances, they would resort to back-alley butchers, drinking toxic homemade concoctions, throwing themselves down stairs, having friends punch them in the stomach, or vasginally impaling themselves with knitting needles or coat hangars. Just like they did in droves before abortion became legal in the US, ending up in toxically infected in ERs and bled out inmorgues in the process.
You're goddamn right we would.
And that is the reality that people like Lila Rose would like to see again. I'm not talking about the good and decent people who would like to see fewer abortions in the US. That applies to everyone decent, on both the prochoice and anti-abortion side.
The theocrats and slut-shamers like Lila Rose don't want to protect women and they don't give a shit what happens to life once it's outside the womb. They value women's lives only for their role as fetal containers-- and they know full well that if abortion were illegal, that wouldn't stop abortion. It never has. All it would do is increase the number of women dying or permanently injured in the pursuit of an abortion.
Thank you, again, Sal, for your service in this cause.
| 769 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:38:09pm |
Life begins about two days after I leave a half can of beer in the garage.
| 770 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:38:44pm |
re: #763 austin_blue
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.Why is it, if we have a working definition of human death, we don't have a definition of human life? The human embryo, at various points in its early development, has a tail, gills, and absolutely no forebrain. In fact, until the latter second trimester, the human fetus would not meet the criterion of a head shot human as far as cerebral cortex brain function is concerned.
No human brain function, no human.
Perhaps this is a starting point for a discussion of when human life begins in the womb?
The two situations are not analogous. Development of an embryo/fetus is a process. Any determination of "where life begins" is arbitrary.
Certain persons have chosen to make that determination based upon their religious beliefs, which is certainly their right. But in a nation that "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," they do not have the right to impose their beliefs upon other Americans.
| 771 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:38:51pm |
re: #767 Charles
The answer to that is simple: it's not in the interest of the religious right to ever agree to that kind of definition, and they will fight like cornered animals to prevent it ever coming to pass. The abortion issue is their strongest hold over their "flocks," and they'll never give up the power that comes with it.
Actually, I think the right's position has been pretty clear--life at conception--and the left, such that it is a liberal position, has refused to answer the question of when life begins.
| 772 |
Fenway_Nation Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:39:56pm |
re: #759 Slumbering Behemoth
Because you touch yourself at night. No, wait, that's why SpaceJesus cries. Neve rmind.
I thought spacejesus cries because nobody else touches him at night.
| 773 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:40:01pm |
re: #766 Ian MacGregor
A single gamete is not going to develop into anything. If I slough off live skin cells when washing, few people would think I had committed an immoral act. A Janist might complain about the mass killing of bacteria.
Now, if humans were aphids, and parthenogenesis was well proven, then you have a stronger point.
Ha! Joanna Russ is smiling from her SF grave...
| 775 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:41:31pm |
"You can't believe everything you read on the internet - that's how World War 1 got started."
| 776 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:42:26pm |
re: #763 austin_blue
The working definition of death, as far as the legalities are concerned was determined initially by physicians, not the government. All I'm saying is the working definition for life, or more to the point sentience should be determined that way as well. I want experts not kooks or religious fanatics making these kind of determinations.
| 777 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:42:56pm |
"Sometimes life leaves a hundred dollar bill on your dresser, and you don't realize until later that it's because it fucked you."
| 778 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:43:30pm |
re: #767 Charles
The answer to that is simple: it's not in the interest of the religious right to ever agree to that kind of definition, and they will fight like cornered animals to prevent it ever coming to pass. The abortion issue is their strongest hold over their "flocks," and they'll never give up the power that comes with it.
Yes! And as an anti-idiotarian board, this site should be fighting tooth and nail to push back against such stupidity. That's why I came here, and that's why I have stayed. I trust you will continue to fight the good fight.
| 779 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:44:14pm |
re: #776 ArchangelMichael
The working definition of death, as far as the legalities are concerned was determined initially by physicians, not the government. All I'm saying is the working definition for life, or more to the point sentience should be determined that way as well. I want experts not kooks or religious fanatics making these kind of determinations.
Who's going to appoint said experts? Our politicians--who also happen to be card carrying members of the kooks and religious fanatics club, if you haven't noticed.
| 780 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:44:15pm |
re: #753 Throbert McGee
Of course you have the right to make a judgment. That doesn't mean you have the right to physically obstruct her from getting the abortion, nor to ask the gummint to be your proxy in obstructing her.
But you have a right (and maybe a certain degree of moral obligation) to "make a judgment" about the intelligence, sanity, and/or personal character of a woman who used abortion as birth control,
There simply is no such thing as women who use abortion as birth control. Abortion is expensive (esp if you are poor). It is physically painful. It is not a decision entered into lightly.
There are women who have multiple abortions, but this is generally due to a failure of birth control, not a complete failure to use birth control. And in teh cases where birth control wasn't used-- access to emergency contraception without a prescription would cut down on many of those. That's why other industrialised nations have a lower rate of surgical abortion (usually) -- because they've made EC available for years and the US has not.
I've had it with the wingnut mythology that women casually decide to get an abortion on a whim, just like they wake up and decide to have their nails painted purple today instead of red.
And even if a woman did use abortion as birth control, so what. That's no one's business but her own.
| 781 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:46:43pm |
re: #770 transient
The two situations are not analogous. Development of an embryo/fetus is a process. Any determination of "where life begins" is arbitrary.
Certain persons have chosen to make that determination based upon their religious beliefs, which is certainly their right. But in a nation that "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," they do not have the right to impose their beliefs upon other Americans.
Well, that's crap. if we have a working legal, definition of death, life should be the other side of the coin. "Certain persons" do not make public policy. The courts have spoken on death.
| 782 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:46:48pm |
re: #771 BryanS
Actually, I think the right's position has been pretty clear--life at conception--and the left, such that it is a liberal position, has refused to answer the question of when life begins.
False. Two points here:
The right, the wingnut right, has steadily tried to redefine life and contraception itself as a form of abortion.
Second: The left has refused to get sidetracked into an issue over when life begins for the embryo-- because it is undeniable that the WOMAN is already alive and has rights over her life and her body.
All attempts to make this about when life begins are attempts to shift the discussion into one that would accord the embryo the status of personhood, and attempts to detract from teh personhood, agency, and rights of the WOMAN.
| 783 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:47:06pm |
re: #779 BryanS
Who's going to appoint said experts? Our politicians--who also happen to be card carrying members of the kooks and religious fanatics club, if you haven't noticed.
The solution to that is to stop voting for these kooks then and keep them busy with something shiny in the meantime.
| 785 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:51:36pm |
re: #782 iceweasel
False. Two points here:
The right, the wingnut right, has steadily tried to redefine life and contraception itself as a form of abortion.Second: The left has refused to get sidetracked into an issue over when life begins for the embryo-- because it is undeniable that the WOMAN is already alive and has rights over her life and her body.
All attempts to make this about when life begins are attempts to shift the discussion into one that would accord the embryo the status of personhood, and attempts to detract from teh personhood, agency, and rights of the WOMAN.
Of course it is. And you notice, the sperm never enters into the conversation?
It's Immaculate Conception as far as responsibility is concerned! A veritable miracle!
| 787 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:51:56pm |
re: #765 austin_blue
Well.
What it came down to for me, in the Schiavo case, was the testimony of the husband (obviously a Satanic tool of Baba Wawa and Oprah) and the judgments of the doctors that a) she had indicated in advance her desire not to be kept alive by extraordinary means (but without papers, how can we believe Satan's minion?) and b) that without constant intubation, she would die.
Set against those factors the entire weight of her deluded nookleeyur family (egged on and paid by James "Depends" Dobson and his child-flogging fanatics) and the whole of the American right-to-any-kind-of-meaningless-life movement, and you have a Hamburger Royale avec Fromage.
And death becomes a politicum, instead of the thing that we all must undergo.
I had a famous friend in Germany. Google it up, I won't sully his name by dragging him into a shitty debate about trivial American politics. Jewish, he fled to London before the war, and grew up on the hard streets of London. He translated 26 Shakespeare plays into German before he died, and the only reason they're not played today is because Schegel's old Scheiße is public domain, while his work still commands royalties. I knew him well. When we became acquainted, he was 60, going out with a 26-year-old and riddled with cancer. And what he said to me about death was, "Everyone up till now has managed it. So will I."
The Schiavo case was pushed by people who deny death and God in equal measure.
| 788 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:52:37pm |
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
| 789 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:52:49pm |
re: #736 Slumbering Behemoth.
Not this feller. I wish that women were more comfortable with their sexuality than they currently are (on average).
Don't judge us all by the wierdos like Lila Rose and the wackos like Wendy Shalit. Consider the many men who work hard to make women ashamed of their sexuality and to enforce the double standard, as well as the many women invested in enforcing the double standard
Some of us are just fine with our sexuality, despite the daily attacks that remind us not to be.
| 790 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:53:39pm |
re: #785 austin_blue
Of course it is. And you notice, the sperm never enters into the conversation?
It's Immaculate Conception as far as responsibility is concerned! A veritable miracle!
As Rose Kennedy said: If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
| 791 |
BignJames Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:54:23pm |
re: #788 Dark_Falcon
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
Stick or flounce?
| 792 |
BryanS Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:54:31pm |
re: #782 iceweasel
False. Two points here:
The right, the wingnut right, has steadily tried to redefine life and contraception itself as a form of abortion.
Mostly, yes. The religious right has always said life begins at conception. That's not a new claim from them.
Second: The left has refused to get sidetracked into an issue over when life begins for the embryo-- because it is undeniable that the WOMAN is already alive and has rights over her life and her body.
Why bother asking the question, ever, then? I think you and I can agree that there isn't a stark line of life, not life. I think it matters whether what is being aborted should be considered a life.
All attempts to make this about when life begins are attempts to shift the discussion into one that would accord the embryo the status of personhood, and attempts to detract from teh personhood, agency, and rights of the WOMAN.
I again wouldn't call it a detraction. The extremism I see on both sides of the debate is the acceptability of each sides position at the beginning and end of the pregnancy. There are plenty of leftists who think as late term as needed is ok. That position scares me as much as the religious zealot who thinks aborting a clump of cells is murder.
| 793 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:56:14pm |
My position is that elective abortions should be permitted without exception during the first trimester (plenty of time to become aware of the pregnancy and to make and carry out a decision), that they should be permitted in cases of rape or incest up until fetal viability (mid second trimester), and that after fetal viability they should only be permitted if the woman's life is in danger, if her physical health could suffer permanent impairment (blindness, paralysis, coma, stroke, heart attack, stroke, renal failure leading to the necessity for ongoing kidney dialysis, etc.).
The reason I would giver victins of rape or incest the additional time has to do with another story I have told here before.
A 14 year old girl complained of nausea in middle school near here, and was sent to the school nurse, who discovered that she was pregnant and suffering from morning sickness.
She had been repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist stepfather. He was arrested and jailed for incest and child molestation, and she was removed fom the home and placed in foster care. From his jail cell, he denied her permission to obtain an abortion, claiming that the pregnancy was God’s just and righteous retribution for ‘their’ sin (her mother had long since left for parts unknown). She was appointed a child advocate, went to court, and received judicial permission to have the procedure despite her father’s objections. But they still couldn’t force him to pay for it, and being 14 years old and basically penniless, she lacked the ability to pay for it herself.
A friend of mine found out about this situation, told me about it, and each of us covered half the costs (the doctor generously performed the procedure for a reduced rate – his own expenses). I still consider it to be the most decent and humane charity I have ever funded.
I am willing to allot the extra time in such cases because the circumstances require the girls concerned to obtain legal permission and to raise the necessary fees, and this takes time.
| 794 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:56:55pm |
re: #616 Dark_Falcon
It was an angry insult. He mocked iceweasel in the usual butthurt way, and then went on to castigate her and Charles for using Media Matters and HuffPo. It's worth noting that the material from those sites posted here has been reprints with links, not commentary by those site's staff and management. He decided based on those sources and Charles' recent posting choices to "stone the unfaithful monkey" and flounce away. Just plain sad.
re: #788 Dark_Falcon
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
I missed the flounce. Interesting that he or she flounced over that, given that there were also many links provided in this thread, 3 by sagehen, to news sources which all backed up what I'd said. Not to mention the HuffPo article I linked also provided sourcing.
Frankly, it's another example of someone who is supposedly fine with fact-checking-- so long as the facts aren't their own.
And there's no excuse for anyone showing up at 2.0, ever.
| 795 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:59:11pm |
re: #763 austin_blue
Second, we have a pretty good definition of human death. No higher cerebral cortex function, no human. This is what allows us to harvest organs, for the good of those in need of them, from functionally dead humans. All well and good. Established law and precedent.
While we have a good legal definition in both philosophy and religion they would quibble with you. There's also the gray area of "brain death," a matter that these same sorts of people like to argue over. (Schiavo comes to mind, and yes both puns in this para were intended)
| 796 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:59:32pm |
re: #794 iceweasel
And there's no excuse for anyone showing up at 2.0, ever.
what if you go there to question their poor life decisions and or sexuality?
| 798 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:01:00pm |
re: #796 SpaceJesus
what if you go there to question their poor life decisions and or sexuality?
You, O Beloved Pet Problem Child, are an exception to the rule.
| 799 |
ThatGuy Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:01:12pm |
Can someone explain the term "flounce"? I dont' find it in the LFG dictionary.
| 800 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:01:25pm |
re: #793 Salamantis
Oh; two other conditions in which post-fetal-viability sabortions should be permitted:
If the fetus is already dead, or if it is so horribly damaged, diseased or deformed that it would not long survive childbirth.
| 801 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:01:40pm |
| 802 |
bosforus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:02:07pm |
re: #799 ThatGuy
Can someone explain the term "flounce"? I dont' find it in the LFG dictionary.
Charles has provided this link in the past:
[Link: encyclopediadramatica.com...]
| 803 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:02:35pm |
re: #781 austin_blue
Well, that's crap. if we have a working legal, definition of death, life should be the other side of the coin. "Certain persons" do not make public policy. The courts have spoken on death.
Courts have made that determination based on physiologic parameters. Once someone is medically dead they are never going to get up and get a beer out of the fridge.
What physiologic parameters would you like to use for "life"? Size? Shape? Visibility of the heart? Of the ventricles of the brain? The kidneys? Visible thumbsucking in the fetus? Why is one of these inherently more significant than another? All of them represent stages of development, and at every stage, this represents a potential human being. There is no "point of no return," as there is with death.
I'm pretty bad at spontaneous analogies but I submit this for discussion. It's flawed, but if anyone can come up with a better one, great. Let's say I throw a book into the fireplace. It's gone, it's toast, you can't read a word on the charred ash. It's dead. But if I were to sit down and write a book, at what point are you willing to say it's definitely a story? From the first word it's a potential book, but it's only fully developed when the last word is written. You are trying to draw a line in the middle.
| 804 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:02:36pm |
re: #796 SpaceJesus
what if you go there to question their poor life decisions and or sexuality?
Or tell them they smell like old men and cheetos? :)
I think that's dandy. And you're a space deity anyway, I'd never dare question you.
All hail spacejesus!
| 805 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:03:03pm |
re: #791 BignJames
Stick or flounce?
Flounce. It was sad to see him go, but I'll be OK. I just hope this wave of hate dies down soon. I'd like Charles to be able to open registration again. I'd like to meet some new friends to replace those I've lost and join those I still have.
| 806 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:03:39pm |
Hey, Jorline? Now that you're over there with pseudo-pious Goddesses and Fisters, and I know you're reading this: please kiss my skeptical Roman ass. Hope it feels good to be hangin' with hypocrites, sociopaths and people being investigated by the Secret Service.
| 807 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:04:14pm |
re: #788 Dark_Falcon
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
Do you have a personal e-mail? Can you convince him to come back a reasonable position?
When I first posted on this board, I got GAZED at a lot, until I established myself as a non-moonbat, Liberal leaning human. Can he be salvaged?
I feel your disappointment, my friend.
| 808 |
shiplord kirel Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:04:48pm |
re: #796 SpaceJesus
what if you go there to question their poor life decisions and or sexuality?
They'd just tell you you're a kool-aid drinking cultist and a lot like the fat kid in Lord of the Flies.
| 809 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:05:12pm |
re: #800 Salamantis
Oh; two other conditions in which post-fetal-viability sabortions should be permitted:
If the fetus is already dead, or if it is so horribly damaged, diseased or deformed that it would not long survive childbirth.
What if the mother is suicidal? What if she had mental or emotional or psychological problems that prevented her from getting an abortion sooner-- or even, in some cases, knowing she was pregnant?
| 810 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:05:58pm |
re: #808 shiplord kirel
They'd just tell you you're a kool-aid drinking cultist and a lot like the fat kid in Lord of the Flies.
KILL THE PIG! SLIT ITS THROAT SPILL ITS BLOOD!
*dances around pile of empty cheetos bags*
| 811 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:06:15pm |
re: #772 Fenway_Nation
I thought spacejesus cries because nobody else touches him at night.
or because he was left alone in the woods . . . (but, wait, would it be a cry if no one is there to hear him/her it?)
| 812 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:07:01pm |
re: #789 iceweasel
Don't judge us all by the wierdos like Lila Rose and the wackos like Wendy Shalit.
I wouldn't dream of it, Ice. Still, there are many liberated women who, to a certain degree, are either ashamed of or embarrassed by their bodies or their desires. This does not apply to all women, of course.
Consider the many men who work hard to make women ashamed of their sexuality and to enforce the double standard, as well as the many women invested in enforcing the double standard.
Slut. Whore. Jezebel. Stupid labels from stupid people. I recall having a conversation with one grown woman. She mentioned the phrase "Walk of Shame". Having not experienced college dorm life, I asked her what that meant. I told her she should have felt pride, not shame. She got her some, damnit! Only petty, jealous people who couldn't "get any" would feel compelled to shame you.
Some of us are just fine with our sexuality, despite the daily attacks that remind us not to be.
May there be more like you, everyday.
| 813 |
BignJames Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:07:15pm |
re: #811 ggt
or because he was left alone in the woods . . . (but, wait, would it be a cry if no one is there to hear
him/herit?)
Snipe hunting?
| 814 |
Dancing along the light of day Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:07:26pm |
re: #725 transient
HAH! It goes off at the coldest temperature, not in the middle of the night, usually, 3-4 AM at my house. I searched the intertubes for days trying to find a fix. There are a couple of brands that are worse than others.
| 815 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:07:56pm |
re: #772 Fenway_Nation
I thought spacejesus cries because nobody else touches him at night.
how did i miss this post?
are you making a pass at me
| 816 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:08:12pm |
re: #780 iceweasel
"There simply is no such thing as women who use abortion as birth control. "
I, really, beg to differ. Not the norm, but there are women who use abortion as birth control.
| 817 |
cliffster Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:09:18pm |
re: #805 Dark_Falcon
Flounce. It was sad to see him go, but I'll be OK. I just hope this wave of hate dies down soon. I'd like Charles to be able to open registration again. I'd like to meet some new friends to replace those I've lost and join those I still have.
That's what I don't understand - no matter how angry or frustrated you are with specific people, what about the people you've spent so much time interacting with? You have a friend in me, DF, and I'm a better man for having spent time here. And with that I go to bed.
| 818 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:09:44pm |
re: #704 austin_blue
Terry Schiavo was dead as a boot. Sorry, that's not life.
While I admit, in hindsight, that "dead as a boot" is a fair description of Terry Schiavo's brain state, I opposed Charles on this at the time because I thought there might be a chance that Terry could've recovered from her unconsciousness to live out her life as a profoundly retarded but awake and conscious adult, and I was concerned about the possibility of bias against the "worthiness" of this possible outcome.
| 819 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:10:59pm |
re: #792 BryanS
My position is that the life and rights of the woman are paramount. There is no reason whatsoever to restrict her life and her rights over an issue that cannot be resolved for certain: whether and when life begins.
In any case, the relevant issue isn't life, but personhood. And neither an embryo or a fetus or a zygote is a person-- but the woman is.
| 820 |
TheMatrix31 Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:11:29pm |
I was scrolling through the thread and noticed some posts about "stealth downdingers". Of course those people should be punished because they're just going down the thread dinging things left and right.
BUT, I do often find myself trying to play catchup on a thread and up/down-dinging things I like or dislike. Surely there's a way to differentiate between what I'm doing and what a "stealth downdinger" is doing, right?
Just want to clarify it, I suppose.
| 821 |
Sharmuta Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:11:54pm |
Just remember, SpaceJesus- big words give the stalkers headaches.
| 822 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:12:01pm |
re: #795 Thanos
While we have a good legal definition in both philosophy and religion they would quibble with you. There's also the gray area of "brain death," a matter that these same sorts of people like to argue over. (Schiavo comes to mind, and yes both puns in this para were intended)
Doesn't matter. The legal definition is the law. Settled. No functional brain, no human. Meat to be distributed to those who are needy, if the forms are signed.
Harsh, but fact.
| 823 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:14:15pm |
re: #822 austin_blue
Doesn't matter. The legal definition is the law. Settled. No functional brain, no human. Meat to be distributed to those who are needy, if the forms are signed.
Harsh, but fact.
I agree, but if you are wrestling with the meaning and purpose of your particular life it does demand some reflection.
| 824 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:14:30pm |
re: #807 austin_blue
Do you have a personal e-mail? Can you convince him to come back a reasonable position?
When I first posted on this board, I got GAZED at a lot, until I established myself as a non-moonbat, Liberal leaning human. Can he be salvaged?
I feel your disappointment, my friend.
No, I couldn't contact him outside of here. If he shows up outside of Rodan's place, I will speak with him. Until then, I'll wait.
| 825 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:14:34pm |
re: #816 ggt
"There simply is no such thing as women who use abortion as birth control. "
I, really, beg to differ. Not the norm, but there are women who use abortion as birth control.
I maintain that if they'd had access to EC they probably would not have.
| 826 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:14:51pm |
| 827 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:16:33pm |
re: #820 TheMatrix31
Surely there's a way to differentiate between what I'm doing and what a "stealth downdinger" is doing, right?
Of course there is. You comment regularly, they do not. Hope that puts you at ease.
| 828 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:18:10pm |
re: #809 iceweasel
What if the mother is suicidal? What if she had mental or emotional or psychological problems that prevented her from getting an abortion sooner-- or even, in some cases, knowing she was pregnant?
That's a hard one. There are undeniably cases where women have seriously threatened to commit suicide if they are not allowed to abort healthy post-viability fetuses, fully intending to go through with it. I do not think that there are very many of them, because women who are that dead set against carrying pregnancies to term almost always avail themselves of abortion sooner. There is also the problem, however, of women who would not attempt suicide rather than carry an unwanted post-viability pregnancy to term, but who would say that they would so that they could obtain the procedure when they otherwise could not. Which were which would have to be determined, in my opinion, on a case by case basis, by qualified, certified psychiatric professionals.
The mental health justification should exist in such extreme circumstances, but it should not, in my opinion, be a late term abortion loophole wide enough to drive a truck through.
| 829 |
ArchangelMichael Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:18:23pm |
re: #820 TheMatrix31
You comment regularly and I doubt you ever go on a down dinging spree through a thread. Usually stealth dingers are stealth down dingers.
| 830 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:19:08pm |
re: #815 SpaceJesus
Don't take it personal, SJ. FN's post was funnier than shit, as was yours.
| 831 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:19:48pm |
re: #818 Throbert McGee
While I admit, in hindsight, that "dead as a boot" is a fair description of Terry Schiavo's brain state, I opposed Charles on this at the time because I thought there might be a chance that Terry could've recovered from her unconsciousness to live out her life as a profoundly retarded but awake and conscious adult, and I was concerned about the possibility of bias against the "worthiness" of this possible outcome.
Based on what, for God's sake? Wishful thinking? The MRIs were there and they showed a great, big, empty fluid filled cavity where her forebrain should be! Prayer is wonderful, and I suppose it is occasionally answered, but if you truly believe that God listens to every wish, you must believe, based on the number of innocent children who die of disease every year, that if God listens to every prayer, his overwhelmingly routine response is
"NO!"
| 833 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:21:13pm |
re: #824 Dark_Falcon
No, I couldn't contact him outside of here. If he shows up outside of Rodan's place, I will speak with him. Until then, I'll wait.
Ach. Sorry, DF.
| 834 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:21:23pm |
Weird to see the advert for a Glenn Beck book on this page. Is this a parody of did the simpering paranoid fool actually publish a book about idiots with a picture of one on the cover?
| 835 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:21:24pm |
re: #826 ggt
EC?
Emergency contraception without a prescription-- the so-called morning after pill.
That's exactly the kind of situation it's meant for. Someone gets drunk and does something dumb, or you have a failure of birthcontrol, like the condom breaking.
You take it in the first 24-72 hours, the sooner the better. It's essentially like taking several birth control pills at once. Prevents the fertilization/implantation.
| 837 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:21:54pm |
Here's an interesting course at Yale that I'm auditing
[Link: www.academicearth.org...]
| 838 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:21:56pm |
re: #782 iceweasel
re: #816 ggt
"There simply is no such thing as women who use abortion as birth control. "
I, really, beg to differ. Not the norm, but there are women who use abortion as birth control.
Anecdotally, I recall being told there are some individuals who do use abortion as birth control because an abortion is a "single sin," whereas birth control is "repeated/ recurrent sin." Others do not use consciously use abortion as "birth control" but do not have adequate access (for a variety of reasons) to good contraception and are willing to take chances with either no birth control, or less effective means than oral contraceptives.
Those who regard contraception as a form of abortion (or at least a sin) are not necessarily "right wing wingnuts," but they do form an unfortunate subset of the "pro-life" contingent who are obstructing one of the simplest, easiest, cheapest, and most effective ways of limiting abortions.
| 839 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:22:14pm |
re: #823 Thanos
I agree, but if you are wrestling with the meaning and purpose of your particular life it does demand some reflection.
How? Why?
| 840 |
Dancing along the light of day Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:22:32pm |
re: #820 TheMatrix31
You post on active threads, most of the stealth down dingers don't post, and don't ding on active threads.
| 841 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:23:14pm |
re: #828 Salamantis
Quite Concur. Sane and rational as always, Sal.
| 842 |
Randall Gross Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:26:47pm |
re: #839 austin_blue
Well it would take a long time to get to the answer of that without sounding like a twit, see the course I am auditing above, link provided.
| 843 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:26:59pm |
re: #835 iceweasel
Emergency contraception without a prescription-- the so-called morning after pill.
That's exactly the kind of situation it's meant for. Someone gets drunk and does something dumb, or you have a failure of birthcontrol, like the condom breaking.You take it in the first 24-72 hours, the sooner the better. It's essentially like taking several birth control pills at once. Prevents the fertilization/implantation.
I'd like to think it would be used. But, after a 3-week binge, it's too late. I will never understand how "Men and Women who should know better" simply do not think before acting.
| 844 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:27:49pm |
re: #838 transient
re: #816 ggt
Anecdotally, I recall being told there are some individuals who do use abortion as birth control because an abortion is a "single sin," whereas birth control is "repeated/ recurrent sin." Others do not use consciously use abortion as "birth control" but do not have adequate access (for a variety of reasons) to good contraception and are willing to take chances with either no birth control, or less effective means than oral contraceptives.Those who regard contraception as a form of abortion (or at least a sin) are not necessarily "right wing wingnuts," but they do form an unfortunate subset of the "pro-life" contingent who are obstructing one of the simplest, easiest, cheapest, and most effective ways of limiting abortions.
Yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. I've heard that explaination before too. I don't get it.
| 845 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:27:50pm |
re: #812 Slumbering Behemoth
Slut. Whore. Jezebel. Stupid labels from stupid people. I recall having a conversation with one grown woman. She mentioned the phrase "Walk of Shame". Having not experienced college dorm life, I asked her what that meant. I told her she should have felt pride, not shame.
Hmmm. Maybe there are generational differences, or maybe gay menz be different than straight wimminz, but in my experience, the shame in "Walk of Shame" has little or nothing to do with "I'm a dirty sinful slut-whore," and everything to do with "Ohmigod, I can't believe I lowered my standards and went home with that loser moron just because I was incredibly horny and a bit lonely -- next time I should just stay home, get a big bottle of shiraz, and masturbate to some good '70s porn."
In other words, you can be very sexually liberated and self-respecting and personally empowered, and STILL have the phrase "Walk of Shame" in your lexicon.
| 846 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:28:02pm |
re: #788 Dark_Falcon
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
Is this a confirmed stalker mutation?
| 847 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:29:46pm |
Overnight thread is upstairs --my cue to go to bed.
weet dreams all!
| 848 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:30:47pm |
re: #828 Salamantis
That's a hard one. There are undeniably cases where women have seriously threatened to commit suicide if they are not allowed to abort healthy post-viability fetuses, fully intending to go through with it. I do not think that there are very many of them, because women who are that dead set against carrying pregnancies to term almost always avail themselves of abortion sooner. There is also the problem, however, of women who would not attempt suicide rather than carry an unwanted post-viability pregnancy to term, but who would say that they would so that they could obtain the procedure when they otherwise could not. Which were which would have to be determined, in my opinion, on a case by case basis, by qualified, certified psychiatric professionals.
The mental health justification should exist in such extreme circumstances, but it should not, in my opinion, be a late term abortion loophole wide enough to drive a truck through.
Okay, try this one. Your fetus has a lethal gene (like anencephaly) which will result in a live birth, but a death within 4 days.
Should you acquiesce to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and bear that corpse to term?
| 849 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:31:01pm |
re: #830 Slumbering Behemoth
Don't take it personal, SJ. FN's post was funnier than shit, as was yours.
no way, that's it. these personal attacks have gone too far. as soon as i've stockpiled enough cheetos and hand lotion, i'm flouncing outta here for 2.0
| 850 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:31:39pm |
re: #844 ggt
Yeah, two wrongs don't make a right. I've heard that explaination before too. I don't get it.
Plenty of things about religion I don't get. I don't lose sleep over them.
{Looks at clock}
Oh, wait-- I am.
| 851 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:32:05pm |
re: #848 austin_blue
Okay, try this one. Your fetus has a lethal gene (like anencephaly) which will result in a live birth, but a death within 4 days.
Should you acquiesce to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and bear that corpse to term?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 852 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:32:21pm |
re: #845 Throbert McGee
True. Sadly, I have never been able to obtain "beer goggles", no matter how hard I have tried. No matter how drunk I get, my standards insist on remaining.
Damn you, standards! You have screwed me out of getting laid far too many times!
| 853 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:32:27pm |
re: #843 ggt
I'd like to think it would be used. But, after a 3-week binge, it's too late. I will never understand how "Men and Women who should know better" simply do not think before acting.
Then you'll never understand how wars start, or how economic meltdowns happen, or the secrets of preventable car accidents.
Humans are humans. We fuck up, by definition.
| 854 |
austin_blue Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:33:04pm |
| 855 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:33:05pm |
re: #807 austin_blue
When I first posted on this board, ,b>I got GAZED at a lot, until I established myself as a non-moonbat, Liberal leaning human.
Err... sorry to be the one to point this out my friend but, well...
/how do I put this delicately?
| 856 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:33:18pm |
re: #828 Salamantis
That's a hard one. There are undeniably cases where women have seriously threatened to commit suicide if they are not allowed to abort healthy post-viability fetuses, fully intending to go through with it. I do not think that there are very many of them, because women who are that dead set against carrying pregnancies to term almost always avail themselves of abortion sooner. There is also the problem, however, of women who would not attempt suicide rather than carry an unwanted post-viability pregnancy to term, but who would say that they would so that they could obtain the procedure when they otherwise could not. Which were which would have to be determined, in my opinion, on a case by case basis, by qualified, certified psychiatric professionals.
The mental health justification should exist in such extreme circumstances, but it should not, in my opinion, be a late term abortion loophole wide enough to drive a truck through.
We already have those guidelines in place though, for late term abortion. I don't see any need to change them. And I really don't think you'd get women in their 8th month suddenly deciding they want an abortion and making shit up. That just isn't how the reality of pregnancy works. Ask any woman who's been pregnant. At a certain point you know your body isn't your own any more, and the thought of abortion is literally impossible, even if you didn't want the child, even if you're totally pro-choice.
Can I rule out the possibility of some heartless women callously getting abortions on a whim that late? No, any more than I could rule out the possibility of mothers who abuse and kill their 2 year old children. Evil does exist.
But the current medical guidelines don't make it possible for women to get an abortion like that anyway, and it is, as mentioned, a vanishingly small probablity anyway. Much smaller than that of women who do have children and treat them horribly, unfortunately.
| 857 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:33:23pm |
| 858 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:33:24pm |
re: #849 SpaceJesus
Don't forget to stock up on Depends.
| 859 |
wee fury Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:34:04pm |
Abortion is legal in the United States. And, I cannot know what goes on in a woman's mind and heart -- or the circumstances in her life -- for her to make that decision.
| 860 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:34:18pm |
re: #846 Bagua
Is this a confirmed stalker mutation?
It is confirmed.
Go there and see for yourself. I won't repost his comment about his departure here in keeping with the rules Charles maintains against posting such things.
| 861 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:34:45pm |
re: #858 Slumbering Behemoth
Don't forget to stock up on Depends.
don't need em. that's what the empty cheeto bags are for.
| 862 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:35:11pm |
re: #852 Slumbering Behemoth
True. Sadly, I have never been able to obtain "beer goggles", no matter how hard I have tried. No matter how drunk I get, my standards insist on remaining.
Damn you, standards! You have screwed me out of getting laid far too many times!
Alternatively... perhaps your desperation has resulted in a default low threshold that there is little for the beer to disinhibit?
| 863 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:36:48pm |
re: #853 Cato the Elder
Humans are humans. We fuck up, by definition.
I only do that when my date requests the "Cowgirl" position.
| 864 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:38:15pm |
re: #852 Slumbering Behemoth
True. Sadly, I have never been able to obtain "beer goggles", no matter how hard I have tried. No matter how drunk I get, my standards insist on remaining.
Damn you, standards! You have screwed me out of getting laid far too many times!
My problem has always been using my ears as well as my eyes.
Yes, I could take her home and boink her. But do I want to listen to that over coffee for even one hour?
Whatever semblance of chastity I possess is due to my obsessive aural apparatus...
| 865 |
Cato the Elder Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:38:43pm |
re: #863 Slumbering Behemoth
I only do that when my date requests the "Cowgirl" position.
Not. Even. Going. To. Ask.
G'night, all!
| 866 |
transient Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:39:58pm |
The smoke alarm has been silent for a good 45 minutes now so I guess it's safe to go to bed.
Night all.
| 867 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:40:20pm |
re: #862 Bagua
Alternatively... perhaps your desperation has resulted in a default low threshold that there is little for the beer to disinhibit?
Certainly, you pose a rather thoughtful question that has much merit. However, the rather low number of notches on my head board completely shatters that hypothesis.
| 868 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:40:54pm |
re: #843 ggt
I'd like to think it would be used. But, after a 3-week binge, it's too late. I will never understand how "Men and Women who should know better" simply do not think before acting.
That's true. There probably would be some people who wouldn't use it.
Some of it has to do with selfloathing and self-hate, too. I have a friend who has had multiple abortions. In her case it was about a failure to take care of herself and a need to punish herself. She made many dangerous life choices during those years.
She's well and doing fine now, but she still lives with that knowledge every day. Even though it was the right decision every time.
| 869 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:41:26pm |
re: #860 Dark_Falcon
It is confirmed.
Go there and see for yourself. I won't repost his comment about his departure here in keeping with the rules Charles maintains against posting such things.
Interesting, but it's more than my jobs worth to extend my study to the autopsy, I'll trust your observation.
| 870 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:41:28pm |
re: #856 iceweasel
I can see couples breaking up late in the woman's pregnancy, and the woman deciding that she now really didn't want to bear the now-despised ex's child, when she was thrilled to bear it before when they were still mutual beloveds.
I don't, however, view that as a legitimate reason to grant the scorned or scorning woman permission for a late term abortion of a healthy post-viability fetus.
| 871 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:41:30pm |
re: #866 transient
Just don't touch yourself. G'nite.
| 872 |
Ian MacGregor Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:43:57pm |
re: #687 austin_blue
A human embryo does not develop gills. At one time there was a belief than oontology recapitulates phylogeny, that is you can see our evolutionary history in our development. That theory is no longer held to be true. I don't know how wide-spread it ever was. It is often brought up by creationists to argue against evolution, you were wrong about that, so you are wrong about this.
We do develop pharangeal slits. When i went to school there were called pharangeal gill slits, but they do not develop into gills. In fish these slits do develop into gills, again IIRC
| 873 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:44:32pm |
re: #793 Salamantis
My position is that elective abortions should be permitted without exception during the first trimester (plenty of time to become aware of the pregnancy and to make and carry out a decision), that they should be permitted in cases of rape or incest up until fetal viability (mid second trimester), and that after fetal viability they should only be permitted if the woman's life is in danger, if her physical health could suffer permanent impairment (blindness, paralysis, coma, stroke, heart attack, stroke, renal failure leading to the necessity for ongoing kidney dialysis, etc.).
The reason I would giver victins of rape or incest the additional time has to do with another story I have told here before.
A 14 year old girl complained of nausea in middle school near here, and was sent to the school nurse, who discovered that she was pregnant and suffering from morning sickness.
She had been repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist stepfather. He was arrested and jailed for incest and child molestation, and she was removed fom the home and placed in foster care. From his jail cell, he denied her permission to obtain an abortion, claiming that the pregnancy was God’s just and righteous retribution for ‘their’ sin (her mother had long since left for parts unknown). She was appointed a child advocate, went to court, and received judicial permission to have the procedure despite her father’s objections. But they still couldn’t force him to pay for it, and being 14 years old and basically penniless, she lacked the ability to pay for it herself.
A friend of mine found out about this situation, told me about it, and each of us covered half the costs (the doctor generously performed the procedure for a reduced rate – his own expenses). I still consider it to be the most decent and humane charity I have ever funded.
I am willing to allot the extra time in such cases because the circumstances require the girls concerned to obtain legal permission and to raise the necessary fees, and this takes time.
This was an up and up mensch move. I am deeply impressed. You did good.
| 874 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:45:19pm |
re: #867 Slumbering Behemoth
Certainly, you pose a rather thoughtful question that has much merit. However, the rather low number of notches on my head board completely shatters that hypothesis.
Ah, quite the contrary my friend, the low number of notches on the headboard is merely a symptom of the root cause of the desperation*, they are generally seen together.
I'd explain further by the science is pretty tricky, better leave it to the pr
professionals if you know what I mean?
| 875 |
Almost Killed by Space Hookers Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:47:40pm |
re: #872 Ian MacGregor
A human embryo does not develop gills. At one time there was a belief than oontology recapitulates phylogeny, that is you can see our evolutionary history in our development. That theory is no longer held to be true. I don't know how wide-spread it ever was. It is often brought up by creationists to argue against evolution, you were wrong about that, so you are wrong about this.
We do develop pharangeal slits. When i went to school there were called pharangeal gill slits, but they do not develop into gills. In fish these slits do develop into gills, again IIRC
Ahhh, but you see the interesting point is that we are dealing with recoding of genes and adding genes through evolution. Pharangeal slits become facial features in us, but gills in humans. The theory is not debunked, and it is very widespread - as in, it is in any embryology text.
We all had these as embryos. They do look just like gills.
| 876 |
Bagua Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:48:06pm |
re: #872 Ian MacGregor
When i went to school there were called pharangeal gill slits, but they do not develop into gills.
Did the other kids tease you a lot over that?
| 877 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:48:21pm |
| 878 |
Throbert McGee Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:49:49pm |
re: #831 austin_blue
Based on what, for God's sake? Wishful thinking? The MRIs were there and they showed a great, big, empty fluid filled cavity where her forebrain should be!
It's simple:
(1) I know that people can partially recover from severe brain damage, albeit sometimes with diminished capacities; and
(2) That sometimes people have awakened from prolonged vegetative states, though again they sometimes have diminished capacities; and
(3) Since I'm not a neurologist, I had no idea whether Terri Schiavo's MRIs were consistent or not with the possibility of her regaining consciousness to live as an awake adult with the mental capacity of a 1-year-old; and
(4) Therefore, as a non-expert, I thought it best to err on the side of not establishing a legal precedent to slowly kill people in Schiavo's state via dehydration.
So, tell me -- based on what reasoning did you arrive at the "dead as a boot" diagnosis?
| 879 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:50:42pm |
re: #873 LudwigVanQuixote
This was an up and up mensch move. I am deeply impressed. You did good.
But what would have become of this young girl had my friend and I not been there for her?
This is why I can support the state paying for abortions in the very narrow circumstances of penniless minor victims of rape or incest where the parents are unwilling to do so.
| 880 |
Aye Pod Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:50:44pm |
re: #861 SpaceJesus
don't need em. that's what the empty cheeto bags are for.
Interesting fact of the day - in the Uk, we don't have cheetos. We have 'cheesy wotsits' :
| 881 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:51:18pm |
re: #870 Salamantis
I can see couples breaking up late in the woman's pregnancy, and the woman deciding that she now really didn't want to bear the now-despised ex's child, when she was thrilled to bear it before when they were still mutual beloveds.
I don't, however, view that as a legitimate reason to grant the scorned or scorning woman permission for a late term abortion of a healthy post-viability fetus.
It just doesnt work like that, Sal. You don't go from planning for a baby and thinking of your pregnancy as a baby to deciding you don't want to have it in the 8th month because your ex is a dick.
The woman in your situation has been thinking of that fetus as a person. She's been picking out names and planning for its arrival.
Are there some women that might want to hurt their kids because they hate their ex? Probably-- but I can only think of Medea. All the other cases I can think of involve men murdering their own children to punish their mother for breaking up with him or divorcing him.
| 882 |
SpaceJesus Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:52:27pm |
re: #880 Jimmah
Interesting fact of the day - in the Uk, we don't have cheetos. We have 'cheesy wotsits' :
[Link: www.jonco48.com...]
"cheesy wotsits" sounds like a word I would love to have some British person following me around all day saying.
| 883 |
Salamantis Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:54:44pm |
re: #881 iceweasel
It just doesnt work like that, Sal. You don't go from planning for a baby and thinking of your pregnancy as a baby to deciding you don't want to have it in the 8th month because your ex is a dick.
The woman in your situation has been thinking of that fetus as a person. She's been picking out names and planning for its arrival.
Are there some women that might want to hurt their kids because they hate their ex? Probably-- but I can only think of Medea. All the other cases I can think of involve men murdering their own children to punish their mother for breaking up with him or divorcing him.
I agree with you that such circumstances would occur very, very rarely, but we cannot categorically state that they would never happen at all.
| 884 |
The Left Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:57:14pm |
re: #880 Jimmah
Interesting fact of the day - in the Uk, we don't have cheetos. We have 'cheesy wotsits' :
[Link: www.jonco48.com...]
Awesome. :)
I love* all the weird crisps too. They're always in flavours like 'prawn and used teatowel'.
(by love* I mean, love to mock).
| 885 |
tcskeptic Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:59:16pm |
re: #857 Ian MacGregor
If you really truly believe that an embryo is very much human, then an abortion clinic is the exact equivalent of a place that you could go drop off an unwanted two year old and have their legs and arms suctioned off and the remainder stuck in a bio-hazard bag and thrown out in the garbage. If that is in fact what you believe it strikes me that you must either be a) Taking a momentary pause between blowing up clinics and planning violent insurrection against the US government to post your opinion here or; b) a pacifist, who, constrained by the moral stricture against violence spends his or her days and hours focused on peacefully eliminating at all costs, even personal poverty, as many abortions as possible; c) A a coward without the courage of their convictions.
Or do you think maybe that you don't actually believe that fetuses are very much human, that they are in fact something substantially less? And that even if abortion is really really bad, it is not quite the same thing as murder?
| 886 |
The Left Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:00:52am |
re: #883 Salamantis
I agree with you that such circumstances would occur very, very rarely, but we cannot categorically state that they would never happen at all.
Sure, in teh same sense that i can't categorically state that an asteroid won't blow up the moon tomorrow.
Could it happen? Sure. Likely? Not really. And just as I can't support restrictions on abortion on the basis of one weird unlikely hypothetical, I can't support a call for us to build a giant "asteroid- moon-blowing-up" defence plan.
I think teh guidelines we already have would catch and weed out your hypothetical anyway
| 887 |
Aye Pod Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:02:51am |
re: #882 SpaceJesus
"cheesy wotsits" sounds like a word I would love to have some British person following me around all day saying.
I can't arrange that for you but I think this is just about the next best thing:
| 888 |
Salamantis Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:03:35am |
re: #886 iceweasel
Sure, in teh same sense that i can't categorically state that an asteroid won't blow up the moon tomorrow.
Could it happen? Sure. Likely? Not really. And just as I can't support restrictions on abortion on the basis of one weird unlikely hypothetical, I can't support a call for us to build a giant "asteroid- moon-blowing-up" defence plan.I think teh guidelines we already have would catch and weed out your hypothetical anyway
Yeah, I think that my aforementioned qualified, certified psychiatric professional would be able to detect such extremely rare situations.
| 889 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:08:45am |
And this is how a late thread conversation should go. Positions stated and defended with facts and logic, willingness to listen, and an honest desire to find policies and ideas that work. Salamantis, iceweasel, mad props to both of you.
| 890 |
Aye Pod Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:10:29am |
re: #884 iceweasel
Awesome. :)
I love* all the weird crisps too. They're always in flavours like 'prawn and used teatowel'.(by love* I mean, love to mock).
Hah! There was actually a hedgehog flavour crisp here a few years ago.
One of my favourite weird crisps : Monster Munch
| 891 |
Ian MacGregor Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:16:08am |
re: #875 LudwigVanQuixote
The theory is indeed in every developmental biology book and declared as false.
I also messed up the terms quite a bit. See ''
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 892 |
MittDoesNotCompute Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:16:20am |
re: #788 Dark_Falcon
And jorline has now shown up at Rodan's place, posting as FishOrCutBait. My sorrow grows deeper.
F**k 'em...they've chosen the company they deserve.
| 893 |
The Left Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:20:43am |
re: #890 Jimmah
Hah! There was actually a hedgehog flavour crisp here a few years ago.
One of my favourite weird crisps : Monster Munch
[Video]
I love hedgehogs. I don't think the US has them.
What's up with Brits and rolling around in foodstuffs? Especially baked beans?
I love beans myself, but that's one thing Americans do better: Boston Baked beans.
| 894 |
Ian MacGregor Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:31:08am |
re: #885 tcskeptic
I don't believe in vigilanteism. Our laws allow for the existence of abortion clinics. Why would you think my beliefs would force me into a criminal act. I think attacks on clinics and providers are reprehensible and immoral. The idea is to persuade the provider his actions are immoral, not to act immorally.
| 895 |
Salamantis Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:32:17am |
I consider my position regarding abortion, as outlined in posts #793 and #800, to be a moderate centrist compromise between the two immoderate extremes of abortion on demand up until the moment of childbirth and abortion prohibited from the very moment of conception.
Interestingly, it closely tracks the three-tiered trimester judgment rendered by the US Supreme Court in Roe vs. Wade.
| 896 |
ex cathedra Tue, Sep 22, 2009 2:42:58am |
re: #853 Cato the Elder
The sexual instinct is very strong. Ultimately, strong instincts bypass the cerebral cortex. This is why it is hard for us to quit smoking, drinking, and eating sweets.
| 897 |
JEA62 Tue, Sep 22, 2009 4:40:33am |
ANYONE with an agenda - left or right - is instantly suspect in my mind. I don't believe any 'studies' performed by PETA, and this type of thing falls into the same category. How can you even say these are real and not staged with actors? I wouldnt put anything past these people because they have no compunction about breaking 'man's law', up to and including murder.
| 898 |
ryannon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 6:05:05am |
re: #875 LudwigVanQuixote
Ahhh, but you see the interesting point is that we are dealing with recoding of genes and adding genes through evolution. Pharangeal slits become facial features in us, but gills in humans. The theory is not debunked, and it is very widespread - as in, it is in any embryology text.
Why do I feel that there's something fishy about this theory?
| 899 |
funky chicken Tue, Sep 22, 2009 6:17:34am |
re: #897 JEA62
ANYONE with an agenda - left or right - is instantly suspect in my mind. I don't believe any 'studies' performed by PETA, and this type of thing falls into the same category. How can you even say these are real and not staged with actors? I wouldnt put anything past these people because they have no compunction about breaking 'man's law', up to and including murder.
You don't think Lila Rose is "real," and you don't think this organization and event were "real" ... because they show the ugliness behind the hard core pro-life position?
| 900 |
spoosmith Tue, Sep 22, 2009 6:20:45am |
re: #878 Throbert McGee
It's simple:
(1) I know that people can partially recover from severe brain damage, albeit sometimes with diminished capacities; and
(2) That sometimes people have awakened from prolonged vegetative states, though again they sometimes have diminished capacities; and
(3) Since I'm not a neurologist, I had no idea whether Terri Schiavo's MRIs were consistent or not with the possibility of her regaining consciousness to live as an awake adult with the mental capacity of a 1-year-old; and
(4) Therefore, as a non-expert, I thought it best to err on the side of not establishing a legal precedent to slowly kill people in Schiavo's state via dehydration.
So, tell me -- based on what reasoning did you arrive at the "dead as a boot" diagnosis?
(4) - I'd say based on, what, 15 years of tests and doctor's observations?
Entirely moot, since she would not have wanted to kept alive in that state. That whole affair was a disgusting display of the government intruding on what should have been a personal decision.
| 901 |
drcordell Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:05:33am |
Rose cares for all the unborn children of the world, until they come out of the womb. Once that baby is born, it's just another brown kid born to a "welfare queen." Funding its education or healthcare would be SOCIALISM! And we can't have that.
| 902 |
JEA62 Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:13:43am |
re: #899 funky chicken
No, I don't necessarily believe her 'films' are real.
| 903 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:16:31am |
re: #901 drcordell
Rose cares for all the unborn children of the world, until they come out of the womb. Once that baby is born, it's just another brown kid born to a "welfare queen." Funding its education or healthcare would be SOCIALISM! And we can't have that.
Her positions on issues like that are designed to appeal to her base's emotions, not to produce good results.
| 904 |
spoosmith Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:17:48am |
re: #901 drcordell
Agreed. Life begins at conception and ends at birth.
| 905 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:21:21am |
re: #904 spoosmith
Did you even bother to try to understand his position?
| 907 |
SixDegrees Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:36:27am |
re: #900 spoosmith
(4) - I'd say based on, what, 15 years of tests and doctor's observations?
Entirely moot, since she would not have wanted to kept alive in that state. That whole affair was a disgusting display of the government intruding on what should have been a personal decision.
Totally agree. And this incident is one of the main motivators behind the provision for end of life counseling in the health care proposals - to ensure that people young and old know what they need to do to ensure that their wishes are obeyed should they wind up in similar circumstances, and to ensure that they know the consequences of doing nothing and accepting the defaults in place where they live.
An idea tragically distorted into "Death Panels" and tossed in the wastebasket, thanks to mind-numbingly idiotic boneheads.
| 908 |
funky chicken Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:36:45am |
| 910 |
spoosmith Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:40:31am |
re: #905 Dark_Falcon
My apologies - forgot to denote sarcasm. I agree with the assertion that anti-abortion (fanatics) do not care what happens to the child once it it born - so long as it is.
| 911 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:41:53am |
re: #910 spoosmith
My apologies - forgot to denote sarcasm. I agree with the assertion that anti-abortion (fanatics) do not care what happens to the child once it it born - so long as it is.
Fair enough. Downding reversed.
| 912 |
spoosmith Tue, Sep 22, 2009 7:45:05am |
re: #911 Dark_Falcon
Thanks! I'm trying to finalize SOX testing (this is a nice break from the hedge fund hell I am currently in)
| 914 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:12:51am |
re: #913 historyrider
Charles has been active in covering the conservative movement's meltdown. It gives him no joy, but it needs to be covered. If you don't like it, don't post here.
| 915 |
drcordell Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:14:23am |
re: #913 historyrider
Because at the end of the day, what matters is the label attached to a set of beliefs, not the underlying beliefs themselves. Whether you call someone pro-life or anti-choice, or pro-death or pro-choice is completely stupid and arbitrary. How to frame the debate by coming up with a good label for your opponent now matters more than the debate itself.
| 917 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:21:13am |
re: #878 Throbert McGee
It's simple:
(1) I know that people can partially recover from severe brain damage, albeit sometimes with diminished capacities; and
(2) That sometimes people have awakened from prolonged vegetative states, though again they sometimes have diminished capacities; and
(3) Since I'm not a neurologist, I had no idea whether Terri Schiavo's MRIs were consistent or not with the possibility of her regaining consciousness to live as an awake adult with the mental capacity of a 1-year-old; and
(4) Therefore, as a non-expert, I thought it best to err on the side of not establishing a legal precedent to slowly kill people in Schiavo's state via dehydration.
So, tell me -- based on what reasoning did you arrive at the "dead as a boot" diagnosis?
This is ridiculous.
Nobody recovers from this:
Image: File:Schiavo_catscan.jpg
Nobody.
| 918 |
bloodnok Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:33:01am |
re: #893 iceweasel
I love hedgehogs. I don't think the US has them.
What's up with Brits and rolling around in foodstuffs? Especially baked beans?
I love beans myself, but that's one thing Americans do better: Boston Baked beans.
Hey, don't knock it 'till you try it, kid! ;)
| 919 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:37:23am |
"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign."
Mother Teresa's Letter to
the US Supreme Court on Roe v. Wade
| 920 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:46:06am |
The fanatic, fraudulent Mother Teresa.
Mother Teresa was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?
The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for "the poorest of the poor." People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the "Missionaries of Charity," but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhi—that saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocent—was drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda.
One of the curses of India, as of other poor countries, is the quack medicine man, who fleeces the sufferer by promises of miraculous healing. Sunday was a great day for these parasites, who saw their crummy methods endorsed by his holiness and given a more or less free ride in the international press. Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. More than that, we witnessed the elevation and consecration of extreme dogmatism, blinkered faith, and the cult of a mediocre human personality. Many more people are poor and sick because of the life of MT: Even more will be poor and sick if her example is followed. She was a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud, and a church that officially protects those who violate the innocent has given us another clear sign of where it truly stands on moral and ethical questions.
| 921 |
norman1905 Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:52:48am |
re: #919 jill e
Thanks for that quote. I had not seen that before. Watching the video clip, I was startled to see the difference between how Lila Rose spoke, and my initial reaction to the post. The post was very literal, and cynical. The video clip showed someone who was being metaphorical.
The fact of the matter is that most people find abortion distasteful, and that number tends to increase as awareness of abortion rises. What she is advocating is an increase in the awareness of abortions.
Maybe we need a "body count" like the media does for soldiers killed during wartime. A nightly report listing the number of abortions performed that day.
| 922 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 8:55:35am |
re: #921 norman1905
Oh, right -- it was "metaphorical."
Quote:
If I could insist, and this may sound a little strange, but if I could insist, as long as they are legal in our nation, abortions would be done in the public square. Until we were so sick and tired of seeing them that we would do away with the injustice altogether.
"Metaphorical." Uh huh.
| 923 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 9:16:29am |
re: #920 Charles
Christopher Hitchens as a source refuting Mother Teresa???
| 924 |
norman1905 Tue, Sep 22, 2009 9:21:47am |
re: #922 Charles
Excuse me while I go to the public square for a container of milk.
| 925 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 9:24:18am |
| 926 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 9:31:11am |
| 927 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:12:48am |
An account of Mr. Hitchens:
“At the end of the event [May 2007, “An Evening With Christopher Hitchens” sponsored by the David Horowitz Freedom Center] as he staggered, sweating and red faced, out of the room, he [Hitchens] advanced on Father Rutler in a threatening and physical manner, screaming that this beloved pastor and brilliant scholar whom he had never met was ‘a child molester and a lazy layabout who never did a day’s work in his life’. His behavior was so frightening that a bodyguard put himself between Hitchens and Father Rutler to protect him. Several of the event organizers then escorted Hitchens to the men’s room and when he emerged he continued his psychotic rant.”
Certainly someone I'd trust with the "facts."
| 928 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:16:08am |
re: #927 jill e
Obviously, you can't refute the facts brought up by Hitchens because they're all true -- so you resort to this kind of cheap character assassination.
| 929 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:17:54am |
Father Rutler is a hero of 9-11. He holds a special place in the hearts of New York City’s police and firemen, for he was with them that day at Ground Zero. Before Father Mychal Judge was struck dead by a body falling from the burning towers, Father Rutler stood side-by-side with Father Judge, hearing confessions and giving the last rites to firemen en route to their deaths.
In a letter about the incident with Father Rutler, Hitchens referred to the Catholic Church as a "cult."
| 930 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:24:34am |
re: #928 Charles
So much of it is hyperbole and opinion. Hitchens is the one guilty of cheap character assassination. The dead are so much easier to accuse.
| 931 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:41:05am |
re: #930 jill e
So much of it is hyperbole and opinion. Hitchens is the one guilty of cheap character assassination. The dead are so much easier to accuse.
So go ahead and refute the facts, then. Are you saying that Mother Teresa didn't take money from the Duvalier family and Charles Keating?
| 932 |
experiencedtraveller Tue, Sep 22, 2009 11:05:13am |
re: #734 Salamantis
But personhood doesn't.
Personhood is a socially constructed moral category not a scientific definition.
| 933 |
soccerdad Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:23:48pm |
At the Value Voters Summit,
anti-choice activist Lila Rose
says “abortions should be done in the public square.”
Well, we know where you stand on the issue. Generally those who believe it is wrong to abort a baby are known as "Pro-Life" not Anti-Choice.
Whatever your position, it only adds to the decency of the debate to use the proper terminology. I'm sure you and many others here would flame me if I called those in oppostion to the pro-life position, a 'pro-death' activist.
| 934 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:35:52pm |
re: #933 soccerdad
Well, we know where you stand on the issue.
What was your first clue?
Generally those who believe it is wrong to abort a baby are known as "Pro-Life" not Anti-Choice.
First, an embryo is not the same as a "baby." Speaking of loaded terminology.
Second, the anti-choice crowd picked the name "pro-life" because it made them seem righteous -- just righteous enough to want to deprive women of the ability to choose what happens to their own bodies.
Whatever your position, it only adds to the decency of the debate to use the proper terminology.
No, that's not the "proper" terminology -- it's their politically chosen terminology, designed to cast the other side as "pro-death."
I'm sure you and many others here would flame me if I called those in oppostion to the pro-life position, a 'pro-death' activist.
You wouldn't be the first.
| 935 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:38:13pm |
re: #933 soccerdad
P.S. How many accounts have you registered at LGF?
| 936 |
Land Shark Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:38:28pm |
re: #915 drcordell
An excellent observation, sir. Much of how this debate is discussed here and in other web logs revolves around these labels. Is pro-death the opposite of pro-life? Of course not. Just because someone favors abortion does not mean they are "pro-death". Equally ridiculous is those who would label someone who is anti-abortion as "anti-choice." I oppose abortion, but it's ludicrous to say I'm "anti-choice", I'm not against people making choices, I just believe that this is one choice people shouldn't be allowed to make since it involves a human life. And that gets to the heart of it, people who believe in the right to an abortion don't think a fetus deserves the same rights and protections afforded to people who've been born while those like me who oppose abortion believe they should be. That has always been to me the "crux of the biscuit" of the abortion issue.*
*The phrase, "crux of the biscuit" courtesy of the late, great Frank Zappa from the Apostrophe album.
| 937 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 12:48:19pm |
re: #931 Charles
No I'm not. But do you know where the money came from that you're getting from PayPal donations to your blog? It doesn't appear that these "facts" have gone any further than Hitchens. Why is that?
I just don't think someone as rabidly anti-religion as Hitchens is the person to be turning to as a resource.
I appreciate the back and forth.
| 938 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:07:40pm |
re: #937 jill e
But do you know where the money came from that you're getting from PayPal donations to your blog?
Yes.
It doesn't appear that these "facts" have gone any further than Hitchens. Why is that?
Mother Teresa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Additionally, the sources of some donations accepted have been criticized. Mother Teresa accepted donations from the autocratic and corrupt Duvalier family in Haiti, and openly praised them. She also accepted 1.4 million dollars from Charles Keating, involved in the fraud and corruption scheme known as the Keating Five scandal, and supported him before and after his arrest. The Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles, Paul Turley, wrote to Mother Teresa asking her to return the donated money to the people Keating had stolen from, one of whom was "a poor carpenter". The donated money was not accounted for, and Turley did not receive a reply.
| 939 |
Salamantis Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:08:08pm |
re: #933 soccerdad
Well, we know where you stand on the issue. Generally those who believe it is wrong to abort a baby are known as "Pro-Life" not Anti-Choice.
Whatever your position, it only adds to the decency of the debate to use the proper terminology. I'm sure you and many others here would flame me if I called those in oppostion to the pro-life position, a 'pro-death' activist.
Actually, the designation anti-abortion and anti-choice are descriptively correct. These people are against the procedure of abortion, and wish to remove it from the range of womens' legal choices, leaving them only the options of obtaining abortions illegally or carrying unwanted pregnancies to term against their wills.
Likewise, the term pro-choice is correct; these people want to leave the choice of whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term up to the individual woman concerned. They are for the choice of either carrying the pregnancy to term or obtaining an abortion to remain open for women, not for advocating the abortion procedure itself. The term pro-abortion is incorrect, because pro-choicers do not want to legally mandate the procedure (the opposite of anti-choicers striving to legally prohibit it). You can find pro-abortionism, but you'll have to look for it in totalitarianisms such as China, where official policy mandates abortion after the birth of a single child.
And that is the real crux of the matter; in a constitutional democratic republic such as ours, a range of alternative, not all of which everyone would personally choose or approve, must remain open for the citizenry to freely choose, if the word freedom is to have any meaning in the society.
Only in totalitarianisms, be they communist, fascist, or theocratic, are all individual choices either mandated or forbidden.
| 940 |
idioma Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:14:22pm |
| 941 |
jill e Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:16:42pm |
re: #938 Charles
Not Wikipedia! I was just going to write one more thing—that I actually think Hitchens has the makings of a great saint in the paths of St. Augustine. I'm sure Mother Teresa is praying for him.
| 942 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:21:39pm |
re: #941 jill e
Not Wikipedia! I was just going to write one more thing—that I actually think Hitchens has the makings of a great saint in the paths of St. Augustine. I'm sure Mother Teresa is praying for him.
Got it. So you don't trust Wikipedia, either. They're all lying about Mother Teresa.
Not much point in continuing, is there?
| 944 |
idioma Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:29:06pm |
re: #622 Charles
Since the James Dobsons and the Jerry Falwells seized on this as a wedge issue, and whipped up their followers with grotesque, misogynistic imagery.
Abortion was the issue that tipped Francis Schaeffer over the edge and changed him from a fairly reasonable fanatic to a dangerous fanatic. And that craziness rapidly spread throughout the religious right, because the corrupt leaders realized they could use it to manipulate the gullible into doing almost anything.
It seems that the robustness of the GOP from the Reagan era - Kill a Commie for Christ™ - has come and gone. Atheists are gaining in record numbers, cohabitation without marriage, relaxing anti-marijuana laws, and the popularity of "stuck in the middle" Jon Stewart; leads me to believe that this country is transitioning away from a philosophy that places ideals above reason. In Rush Limbaugh's book: The Way Things Ought To Be the New York Time's Bestseller Edition (esoteric, I know). Rush had added a new "positive" message: We're Winning. In which Rush explained that as the GOP gained momentum beyond the Clinton years, this country would finally "get it Right" and give the Republicans a chance to steer the ship. He predicted an era in which the left would become louder and more extreme, yet less relevant. He compared the left to a screaming infant in a crib, the liberals would simply cry themselves to sleep.
This of course, did not happen. Eight years with Bush did not drive the left to an extreme (thought there certainly were cry babies in their ranks), many stayed moderate, and appealed to the majority. Now it would seem however, that as the GOP has to deal with losing their first major election in nearly 15 years - Newt's contract with America - They have split ranks, no real leadership, and have resorted to the very tactics they mocked for so long: They are crying themselves to sleep.
I just hope the moderate voters in this country can keep us away from either extreme for at least a few years.
| 945 |
idioma Tue, Sep 22, 2009 1:31:52pm |
re: #943 Salamantis
Oops! Actually, I forgot to put in mine. Tongue in cheek, meets foot in mouth.
:)
| 946 |
soccerdad Tue, Sep 22, 2009 3:28:11pm |
re: #935 Charles
Just this one. Been here a looong time. Have not been around a whole lot recently.
| 947 |
soccerdad Tue, Sep 22, 2009 3:35:08pm |
re: #935 Charles
P.S. How many accounts have you registered at LGF?
P.S. at one point I registered another nic under the name soccerdadjg. I was intending to turn the "soccerdad" nic over to the bolgger who was sometimes quoted here. I believe you shut the '...jg' one down pretty quickly though. I forget exactly what happened, but I never posted under that nic.
| 948 |
sod Tue, Sep 22, 2009 10:06:31pm |
And yet another long abortion debate. Two hours sleep lost.
I complain but read most every comment.
And I still don't know where I stand on this issue.
| 949 |
soccerdad Wed, Sep 23, 2009 9:12:57am |
re: #939 Salamantis
Actually, the designation anti-abortion and anti-choice are descriptively correct. These people are against the procedure of abortion, and wish to remove it from the range of womens' legal choices, leaving them only the options of obtaining abortions illegally or carrying unwanted pregnancies to term against their wills.
Likewise, the term pro-choice is correct; these people want to leave the choice of whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term up to the individual woman concerned. They are for the choice of either carrying the pregnancy to term or obtaining an abortion to remain open for women, not for advocating the abortion procedure itself. The term pro-abortion is incorrect, because pro-choicers do not want to legally mandate the procedure (the opposite of anti-choicers striving to legally prohibit it). You can find pro-abortionism, but you'll have to look for it in totalitarianisms such as China, where official policy mandates abortion after the birth of a single child.
And that is the real crux of the matter; in a constitutional democratic republic such as ours, a range of alternative, not all of which everyone would personally choose or approve, must remain open for the citizenry to freely choose, if the word freedom is to have any meaning in the society.
Only in totalitarianisms, be they communist, fascist, or theocratic, are all individual choices either mandated or forbidden.
Argue semantics all you want. The generally accepted terms I've seen used thoughout the ages are Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. If someone uses some other term, I would generally take it to mean they are falling on one side or the other and are attempting to score "points".
| 950 |
Charles Johnson Wed, Sep 23, 2009 10:33:49am |
re: #949 soccerdad
Argue semantics all you want. The generally accepted terms I've seen used thoughout the ages are Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. If someone uses some other term, I would generally take it to mean they are falling on one side or the other and are attempting to score "points".
And if someone uses the word "baby" to refer to an embryo, I would generally take it to mean that they're a fanatic on the issue.
| 951 |
Salamantis Wed, Sep 23, 2009 11:46:23am |
re: #949 soccerdad
Argue semantics all you want. The generally accepted terms I've seen used thoughout the ages are Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. If someone uses some other term, I would generally take it to mean they are falling on one side or the other and are attempting to score "points".
If self-labelled 'pro-lifers' were honest rather than trying to score semantic propaganda points, they would admit that they were anti-abortion and anti-choice (because they're anti that choice). Too many of them are inconsistent and tie themselves in moebius gordian knots to justify their simultaneous support for the death penalty.
And then a tiny few of them gun down abortion doctors and clinic escorts. Three have been murdered, in two separate incidents, by 'pro-life' murderers in my hometown alone. And a shitload more cheered the murderers on, all over the blogosphere; Charles has documented it in posts on this very list.
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