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1 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:04:00pm

You know what's really pathetic? Some lame-ass Republican is going to flog this part way through a state legislature somewhere, providing another sideshow of idiocy the party can spend the next decade living down.

2 Neutral President  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:06:29pm

Hey "Judge":

This is where the party ends
I can’t stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

/tmbg

3 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:08:10pm

I could smell this post coming!

/because its subjects stink so rancidly

4 Summer Seale  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:08:36pm

And they're still not as whacked as the base wants them to be! =)

5 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:08:39pm

Discover the Networks has a page on Rockwell.

Lewrockwell.com is the website of Lew Rockwell, self styled libertarian writer and "full-time gadfly against the conventional wisdom." Rockwell describes the content of his site as "unapologetically idiosyncratic." Among its many columnists and commentators, who hail from all points along the political spectrum, are Michael Moore, Ted Rall, John Pilger, Dennis "Justin" Raimondo, Frank Rich, Robert Scheer, Alexander Cockburn, Karen Kwiatkowski, and Cindy Sheehan.

In the view of Rockwell and many of the contributors to LewRockwell.com, the U.S. government is the world's most oppressive regime. "We are talking about the greatest centralized power on the globe, the world's largest, most well-armed, and most dangerous government, the only government to have ever used nuclear weapons against civilians and the government that has invaded more countries than any other in modern times," wrote Rockwell in June 2004. A year later, he wrote, "Americans need to face the reality that most of the world sees our nation as the new evil empire, and many people in the Gulf region are dedicated to making sure that the Iraq War is the last hurrah for American militarism."

LewRockwell.com believes that the U.S. is in the grip of a fascist government. Rockwell refers to his political opponents as "fascisti," and to supporters of American policies as "storm troopers of the regime" and proponents of "red-state fascism." Stressing that this is "not just rhetoric," Rockwell urges his readers to "recognize that fascism is a reality, not just a smear term."

In July 2004, Rockwell wrote, "I have this in common with NPR, Michael Moore, the Black Caucus, and assorted other grasping, complaining, anti-capitalist victim lobbies: a burning desire to see George Bush's fingers pried loose from the levers of power." In a December 2004 column, Rockwell lamented that "what we have alive in the U.S. is an updated and Americanized fascism," the solution for which "requires that we face the reality of the current threat forthrightly by extending more rhetorical tolerance leftward and less rightward." "What is the most pressing and urgent threat to freedom that we face in our time?" he wrote. "It is not from the left."

Believing that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was "wholly unwarranted" and that the American-led war to oust Saddam Hussein was "a malevolent hoax," Rockwell has called Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9-11 a "must-see" movie. LewRockwell.com accordingly ran several flattering reviews of the film. With the presidential election in the offing, Rockwell encouraged readers in a September 2004 column to "look left." There they could "find fascinating war revisionism, courageous defenses of the innocently detained, principled stands for constitutional rights, well argued exposes of the high and mighty." Rockwell derided the "supposedly rightist president who wages war, cuts taxes, and shovels other people's money at corporate fatcats."

In September 2005 LewRockwell.com gave space to an article by Cindy Sheehan, in which she opined that the "aggression on Iraq is illegal, immoral and appallingly unnecessary," and called on supporters to become "extremists." In November 2005, Sheehan was a featured speaker at a benefit conference for LewRockwell.com.

6 Racer X  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:10:14pm

Idiots.

7 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:10:44pm

Crazy to the left. Jokers to the right.

And I'm stuck here in the middle and finding myself with fewer and fewer options. It's a real sickening feeling watching all this play out. Right now, the right's craziness is moving ever faster off the deep end, precisely because they're out of power and because there isn't a unifying voice that can rally around the center-right to right wing, focusing on the big topics under a big tent. So, demagogues and charlatans are filling the void. But the left is surely doing the same, as their pursuit of power has meant that the left isn't merely satisfied with changing the drapes. They want wholesale changes to fulfill their own ideological and political needs. And the media is feeding both sides.

8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:11:06pm

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

9 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:11:42pm

"Freedom" Watch, my ass.

10 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:12:12pm

re: #7 lawhawk

Crazy to the left. Jokers to the right.

And I'm stuck here in the middle and finding myself with fewer and fewer options. It's a real sickening feeling watching all this play out. Right now, the right's craziness is moving ever faster off the deep end, precisely because they're out of power and because there isn't a unifying voice that can rally around the center-right to right wing, focusing on the big topics under a big tent. So, demagogues and charlatans are filling the void. But the left is surely doing the same, as their pursuit of power has meant that the left isn't merely satisfied with changing the drapes. They want wholesale changes to fulfill their own ideological and political needs. And the media is feeding both sides.

Perhaps the time has come for a retreat? I'm just suggesting that since the band we're in is playing different tunes (Pink Floyd) maybe it's not a bad idea to sit this one out.

11 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:12:29pm

re: #8 Charles

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

Hope nobody's got measles.

12 Racer X  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:13:08pm

re: #8 Charles

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

In a sane world they wouldn't be allowed in the building.

13 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:13:34pm

re: #8 Charles

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

Who most probably consider themselves to be as ruthlessly persecuted and oppressed as Christians in Saudi Arabia.

*spit*

14 Chekote  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:14:20pm

re: #8 Charles

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

Isn't amazing how these various conspiracy groups find each other. There must be a nutjob radar out there to help them.

15 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:15:31pm

re: #14 Chekote

Isn't amazing how these various conspiracy groups find each other. There must be a nutjob radar out there to help them.

Crazies are cognitively magnetized, and are inexorably drawn to each other.

16 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:15:33pm

re: #14 Chekote

Isn't amazing how these various conspiracy groups find each other. There must be a nutjob radar out there to help them.

Paul has been actively soliciting these groups and many others for years now. They're his base. They aren't finding each other; he's bringing them together.

17 albusteve  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:15:39pm

re: #7 lawhawk

Crazy to the left. Jokers to the right.

And I'm stuck here in the middle and finding myself with fewer and fewer options. It's a real sickening feeling watching all this play out. Right now, the right's craziness is moving ever faster off the deep end, precisely because they're out of power and because there isn't a unifying voice that can rally around the center-right to right wing, focusing on the big topics under a big tent. So, demagogues and charlatans are filling the void. But the left is surely doing the same, as their pursuit of power has meant that the left isn't merely satisfied with changing the drapes. They want wholesale changes to fulfill their own ideological and political needs. And the media is feeding both sides.

and the economy is in the tank, Israel's back is to the wall and Iran pushes people around like playtoys...tough times

18 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:15:51pm

re: #14 Chekote

Isn't amazing how these various conspiracy groups find each other. There must be a nutjob radar out there to help them.

As one who has plumbed some of the depths of the conspiratorial mindset,let me assure you that they don't need to find each other. They are already one group, united by a common ideological bent, just different denominations, is all.

19 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:15:57pm

Pretty sure we fought a war to settle the secession issue. Maybe these two missed it?

20 lurking faith  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:17:39pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Pretty sure we fought a war to settle the secession issue. Maybe these two missed it?

"I've read American history! Um, what was that middle thing?"
-Otto

21 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:18:32pm

re: #5 HelloDare

Yes, you can also see from that page another Paleotard reach around to the left.

22 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:18:46pm

re: #18 Guanxi88

As one who has plumbed some of the depths of the conspiratorial mindset,let me assure you that they don't need to find each other. They are already one group, united by a common ideological bent, just different denominations, is all.

The Church of the Poison Mind:

Youtube Video
23 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:19:20pm

re: #22 Salamantis

Embedding disabled

24 Neutral President  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:19:35pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Pretty sure we fought a war to settle the secession issue. Maybe these two missed it?

I believe the legal precident in the US for secession goes something like this:

If you can defend your state against a full-scale anti-insurrection military invasion and do so for an extended period of time, then yes you can secede. If not, no.

25 Summer Seale  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:19:50pm

What really worries me is that we got to this point from the Left after about six years of Bush. Now we're at this point from the Right after only ten months of Obama. I'm not blaming Obama for this, I'm blaming the extreme Left which made this a new argument in modern politics, and the extreme Right which rolled with it completely unhinged to get back to this point so quickly.

It worries me because I know what comes after open claims of the right of secession as we all do, and I really don't think they should be going there. But it doesn't look as if they're going to hold back.

26 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:20:00pm

re: #23 Thanos

Embedding disabled

You can click on it again, and watch it at Youtube.

27 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:20:15pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Pretty sure we fought a war to settle the secession issue. Maybe these two missed it?

They didn't miss it. They just think the wrong side won.

28 Racer X  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:21:54pm

California Beer Festival

Is tomorrow!

29 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:22:25pm

re: #22 Salamantis

The Church of the Poison Mind:


[Video]

Talking Heads, summing up nicely the current state of affairs, and the fusion of religion with conspiratorial politics:

Puzzlin' Evidence

Youtube Video
30 metrolibertarian  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:22:39pm

These a-holes use the term "nullification" so much I would swear they are possessed by the disgraceful John Calhoun.

31 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:22:49pm

re: #25 Summer

What really worries me is that we got to this point from the Left after about six years of Bush. Now we're at this point from the Right after only ten months of Obama. I'm not blaming Obama for this, I'm blaming the extreme Left which made this a new argument in modern politics, and the extreme Right which rolled with it completely unhinged to get back to this point so quickly.

It worries me because I know what comes after open claims of the right of secession as we all do, and I really don't think they should be going there. But it doesn't look as if they're going to hold back.

Part of the "Nieuw Recht" is part of the left. (third way politics - Scumbag Alain Benoist is read by Filip DeWinter for the same reason Alinsky is now loved by the right.)

32 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:22:54pm

Sore losers.

33 Athos  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:23:45pm

re: #10 Guanxi88

Perhaps the time has come for a retreat? I'm just suggesting that since the band we're in is playing different tunes (Pink Floyd) maybe it's not a bad idea to sit this one out.

No, I will not cede the conservative movement to these assholes. I'm going to help fight and expose them for the reprobates that they are in the hope that the silent majority wakes up - sees the truth of these people and soundly re-banishes them to the extreme outer fringe. Not participating will just encourage them or worst - get them and their ilk elected to positions of power.

34 waveriderCA  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:24:05pm

re: #28 Racer X

Sold Out =( I would have made the drive too.

35 Racer X  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:24:12pm

re: #25 Summer

I blame Bush.

36 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:25:56pm

Not altogether off-topic, maybe: From FAIL blog

37 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:26:27pm

Lew Rockwell ♥'s Cindy Sheehan:

In September 2005 LewRockwell.com gave space to an article by Cindy Sheehan, in which she opined that the "aggression on Iraq is illegal, immoral and appallingly unnecessary," and called on supporters to become "extremists." In November 2005, Sheehan was a featured speaker at a benefit conference for LewRockwell.com.

38 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:27:11pm

re: #33 Athos

No, I will not cede the conservative movement to these assholes. I'm going to help fight and expose them for the reprobates that they are in the hope that the silent majority wakes up - sees the truth of these people and soundly re-banishes them to the extreme outer fringe. Not participating will just encourage them or worst - get them and their ilk elected to positions of power.

That's placing a lot of faith in a very difficult undertaking with only the most limited prospects of success. I'd be fully prepared to let these whackos soil their nests to their hearts' content.

At some point, the whole process spins out of control, and all that can be done is to let the mobs slug it out, or the crazy folk get it out of their system. Then, when they are exhausted from their pointless labors, and when those who went along realize the folly, then sane folk can step up again.

I realize the penalty for sitting it out is the possibility of being ruled by these people, but that's already well on its way to reality. Some folk think to keep trying to bail out the boat - me, I'm thinking maybe the life-jacket is my best bet.

39 Russkilitlover  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:29:01pm

re: #8 Charles

And today Glenn Beck had an audience full of Paulians and anti-vaccination home-schoolers.

And also, in Pittsburgh, we have seen the left in action. Tear gas, police barricades arrests, vile invective. Wait...was this a Tea Party? Was this concerned citizens screaming at their "reps" to be heard? NO! It's the radical left, the anarchists of old, covering their faces and forcing confrontations. Is the the fascism of the right or the left? Just who, exactly, is causing the violence? Concerned citizens opposed to socialism or the wacky left promoting socialism.

Late to all threads today so don't know extent of discussion but I don't see here the condemnation of the violence in Pittsburgh as opposed to the perceived "violence" at 9/12 DC or other Tea Party protests.

40 BryanS  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:29:32pm

re: #27 Charles

They didn't miss it. They just think the wrong side won.

Is that why you call Lew Rockwell racist? Honest question--I don't really follow the fringes to know.

41 Athos  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:29:33pm

re: #35 Racer X

I blame Bush.

I blame the center-right bloggers who aren't standing up to these people and shining a light on their repulsive positions. I blame the silent majority of people in the middle who are ridiculing these people and ideas as is so deserving. I blame the GOP for not have the leaders or the cojones to stand up against the invasion from the fringe or the acceptance of alliances with neo-fascists and neo-confederate racists.

42 Dahveed  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:29:41pm

It's amazing - whenever I see anything that shows support for Ron Paul, a migraine ensues. The migraine goes away with strong pain killers, but unfortunately Ron Paul is still there.

43 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:29:50pm

re: #39 Russkilitlover

And also, in Pittsburgh, we have seen the left in action. Tear gas, police barricades arrests, vile invective. Wait...was this a Tea Party? Was this concerned citizens screaming at their "reps" to be heard? NO! It's the radical left, the anarchists of old, covering their faces and forcing confrontations. Is the the fascism of the right or the left? Just who, exactly, is causing the violence? Concerned citizens opposed to socialism or the wacky left promoting socialism.

Late to all threads today so don't know extent of discussion but I don't see here the condemnation of the violence in Pittsburgh as opposed to the perceived "violence" at 9/12 DC or other Tea Party protests.

Because, in part, the Anarchists don't lay claim to representing conservatives, or America, for that matter.

44 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:30:41pm

Why should Rockwell's presence be a surprise? When Glen Beck said that Obama hates "white culture," he was obviously trying to rationalize his own racism--Fjordman-style.

(P.S. does this site get paid for clicks on Beck's ad?)

45 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:31:03pm

Unlike the Church of the SubGenius, who openly manufacture bizarre and nonsensical collusion scenarios for laughs, these people take their twisted conspiracy theories seriously.

They deserve no slack whatsoever. And Charles isn't cutting them any.

46 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:31:05pm

re: #44 philosophus invidius

(P.S. does this site get paid for clicks on Beck's ad?)

No, it's a sorta flat-rate rental thing.

47 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:31:32pm

re: #43 Guanxi88

Because, in part, the Anarchists don't lay claim to representing conservatives, or America, for that matter.

Also the Anarchists are old news, their antics are well known and routine.

48 Russkilitlover  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:31:32pm

re: #43 Guanxi88

Because, in part, the Anarchists don't lay claim to representing conservatives, or America, for that matter.

WTF does that mean? Concerned citizens who fear the European socialization of America are somehow a threat, but face masking, bottle throwing anarchists are not?

49 Athos  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:32:19pm

re: #38 Guanxi88

Yes, it might be an uphill fight - or even futile fight given levels of apathy that will exist until it is too late. But to not fight is a far worse choice. I'd rather fight and keep fighting until we win than to let them have a moment of time without someone highlighting their failings.

50 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:32:40pm

re: #48 Russkilitlover

WTF does that mean? Concerned citizens who fear the European socialization of America are somehow a threat, but face masking, bottle throwing anarchists are not?

No, the Anarchists don't need condemnation from those whom they identify as the Enemy; the more rabid Tea Partiers need a good solid slap from those whom they consider allies when they go off the rails.

51 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:32:45pm

re: #39 Russkilitlover

Be clear in what you're saying: I read you are suggesting the blog and forum of selection bias in not covering a particular outrage?

52 fizzlogic  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:33:25pm

I recognized what an idiot Napolitano was back during the Schiavo mess, when he repeatedly kept using the nebulous argument, "there's a culture of death out there" (ooOOoo scary). His performance back then, echoing Limbaugh, Hannity and the rest of the RW pundits, helped push me away from the GOP. Now secession?...because they all don't like what Obama is doing trying to clean up the mess George Bush and GOP created. I'm glad Bruce Bartlett is still out there trying to bring some sanity to the Right. The world would be a better place if FNC went off the air.

53 philosophus invidius  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:35:13pm

re: #52 trendsurfer

Don''t you know that Obama plans on staying President forever?
/sarc

54 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:35:50pm

re: #21 Thanos

Yes, you can also see from that page another Paleotard reach around to the left.

When somebody is as whacked at Rockwell, it's hard to put them in a box. The left/right dichotomy loses it's meaning.

Fascists and Communist -- not much difference except for nationalism. That seems to be their major difference -- but even then, that gets cloudy.

In the end, the bad guys are anybody who doesn't believe in what they do.

Look at The Weather Underground's solution for the hard-core capitalists: re-education camps. Sounds unbelievable until you know more about Ayers. His solution was the fascists solution.

55 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:35:54pm

If any state can muster a majority of people who share these views, then perhaps the USA is better off without it...

56 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:35:55pm

re: #39 Russkilitlover

At the moment, I'm more interested in cleaning my own house. Because if it isn't done, we're looking at the death of the Conservative movement in this country, at a time when it is sorely needed.

And for what it's worth, I don't recall hearing about any Democrat leaders roaming the streets in Pittsburgh egging on the protestors, inciting them to violence. Should that ever happen, however, why would I give a rat's ass? It does me no good to solve the Democrat's problems.

57 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:36:31pm

re: #52 trendsurfer

I recognized what an idiot Napolitano was back during the Schiavo mess, when he repeatedly kept using the nebulous argument, "there's a culture of death out there" (ooOOoo scary). His performance back then, echoing Limbaugh, Hannity and the rest of the RW pundits, helped push me away from the GOP. Now secession?...because they all don't like what Obama is doing trying to clean up the mess George Bush and GOP created. I'm glad Bruce Bartlett is still out there trying to bring some sanity to the Right. The world would be a better place if FNC went off the air.

FIFY

58 SpaceJesus  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:36:44pm

texas v. white

59 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:37:55pm

re: #58 spacejesus

texas v. white

I'm sure the Honorable Judge Napolitano just hasn't seen that one.

60 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:40:10pm

All my exes live in Texas
That's why the state's so goldarn mean
Let them leave our blessed union
And build a barrier in between

/channeling spacejesus

61 Neutral President  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:40:13pm

re: #39 Russkilitlover

And also, in Pittsburgh, we have seen the left in action. Tear gas, police barricades arrests, vile invective. Wait...was this a Tea Party? Was this concerned citizens screaming at their "reps" to be heard? NO! It's the radical left, the anarchists of old, covering their faces and forcing confrontations. Is the the fascism of the right or the left? Just who, exactly, is causing the violence? Concerned citizens opposed to socialism or the wacky left promoting socialism.

Late to all threads today so don't know extent of discussion but I don't see here the condemnation of the violence in Pittsburgh as opposed to the perceived "violence" at 9/12 DC or other Tea Party protests.

The whacky leftist DFHs at the G-20 are not being egged on, advocated, or supported by the President, the DNC, or any prominent elected democrats. The far-right whackos making us look bad are in fact receiving lip service, open support, or worse from the GOP and that is the whole problem.

62 Gus  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:40:25pm

Bad enough to have to listen to what spews out of Andrew Napolitano's mouth but I can only take about 30 seconds of hearing his voice. Lew Rockwell is a paleocon crackpot.

63 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:40:48pm

re: #49 Athos

Yes, it might be an uphill fight - or even futile fight given levels of apathy that will exist until it is too late. But to not fight is a far worse choice. I'd rather fight and keep fighting until we win than to let them have a moment of time without someone highlighting their failings.

Not to sound too dramatic, but at some point, one cuts one's losses, sells his goods for whatever he can get, and takes the first train OUT of Germany.

64 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:41:25pm
65 Chekote  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:42:25pm

re: #27 Charles

They didn't miss it. They just think the wrong side won.

Not necessarily. You have secessionist movements in Alaska and Vermont.

66 BryanS  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #61 ArchangelMichael

The whacky leftist DFHs at the G-20 are not being egged on, advocated, or supported by the President, the DNC, or any prominent elected democrats. The far-right whackos making us look bad are in fact receiving lip service, open support, or worse from the GOP and that is the whole problem.

The right has been pretty open about it's intentions to copy the hard core left--reading the playbook "Alinsky's Rules". 'They did it first' is a poor excuse to act like that, but the left could have reigned in their own once or twice as well at some point in the past 50 years.

67 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:44:05pm

These idiots seem to think a state can just withdraw from the public contract we call the Constitution, and things will be just ducky. Never mind most states get a lot of their funding from the Federal government. Who exactly will pay to fix the interstate hiways? How are they going to get goods for their economies to sell? And who will defend them if Canada or Mexico took a pot shot? I have to wonder if any idiot seriously considering secession has bothered to follow their thoughts to their logical conclusions. I'm guessing probably not.

68 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:44:28pm

Is it fair to say that now Alinsky's rules have infiltrated both wings of our body politic in Gramscian fashion?

69 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:44:57pm

re: #68 Salamantis

The Horror.

70 Athos  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:45:54pm

re: #63 Guanxi88

But then the question comes up as to where one would go.

We're not at that point - still time to fight them.

71 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:46:29pm

Talk of secession? Are they mad? Don't they know about the Civil War?

The right IS mad.

I want nothing to do with them.

Time for a center party.

72 fizzlogic  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:46:36pm

re: #53 philosophus invidius

Don''t you know that Obama plans on staying President forever?
/sarc

The fringe was saying the same thing about Clinton when he was in office. If you live long enough you get to see the same shit over and over again. But, of course, this time it's different...really. /

73 albusteve  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:46:59pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

These idiots seem to think a state can just withdraw from the public contract we call the Constitution, and things will be just ducky. Never mind most states get a lot of their funding from the Federal government. Who exactly will pay to fix the interstate hiways? How are they going to get goods for their economies to sell? And who will defend them if Canada or Mexico took a pot shot? I have to wonder if any idiot seriously considering secession has bothered to follow their thoughts to their logical conclusions. I'm guessing probably not.

it's just alot of inflammatory rhetoric...another money maker...time will tell if it gains more traction or fade away...it was all very predictable tho I might add and likely to get even more noisy

74 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:47:06pm
75 Gus  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:47:29pm

re: #71 Ojoe

Talk of secession? Are they mad? Don't they know about the Civil War?

The right IS mad.

I want nothing to do with them.

Time for a center party.

It's almost like they are promoting a New-Confederacy.

76 BryanS  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:47:34pm

re: #65 Chekote

Not necessarily. You have secessionist movements in Alaska and Vermont.

I'm reminded of this comical prediction I ran into once wikipedia browsing:

Prediction of the USA's collapse in 2010

Which part do you guys want to live in? I'm guessing the part Canada is supposed to invade/take over would be the best fit for me. Anyone here for China's part :?)

77 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:47:47pm

re: #72 trendsurfer

The fringe was saying the same thing about Clinton when he was in office. If you live long enough you get to see the same shit over and over again. But, of course, this time it's different...really. /

And the other fringe said it about both Reagan and Dubya.

78 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:48:11pm

re: #74 MikeySDCA

Another interesting issue is the state's share of the obligations of the Federal government, not just its share of the national debt, but the Social Security, Medicare, and so on due to its citizens. Secession is unimaginable.

More good points. These idiots are talking out their asses.

79 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:48:25pm

re: #75 Gus 802

No brains at all, some of them. Just grey fluff blown in.

80 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:49:04pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

These idiots seem to think a state can just withdraw from the public contract we call the Constitution, and things will be just ducky. Never mind most states get a lot of their funding from the Federal government. Who exactly will pay to fix the interstate hiways? How are they going to get goods for their economies to sell? And who will defend them if Canada or Mexico took a pot shot? I have to wonder if any idiot seriously considering secession has bothered to follow their thoughts to their logical conclusions. I'm guessing probably not.

I don't think they have a lot of thoughts to follow. Tracking down one of their thoughts is a lot like a snipe hunt.

81 What, me worry?  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:50:29pm

United we stand? Divided we fall? Last I heard anyway.

82 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:50:33pm

re: #76 BryanS

I'm reminded of this comical prediction I ran into once wikipedia browsing:

Prediction of the USA's collapse in 2010

Which part do you guys want to live in? I'm guessing the part Canada is supposed to invade/take over would be the best fit for me. Anyone here for China's part :?)

Ha, the Mexico part is too small.

83 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:50:53pm
84 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:51:17pm

Romanticism - the ascendency of emotion over intellection - leads to very bad places when applied to politics. Always has.

85 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:52:13pm

This napolitano idiot says in his little graphics he's defending the Constitution, but it seems to me that folks who really defend the Constitution are the ones who understand that the Federal government has a right to exist.

You cannot claim to defend a document when you're advocating dissolving it.

86 Guanxi88  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:52:19pm

re: #70 Athos

But then the question comes up as to where one would go.

We're not at that point - still time to fight them.

In my own case, maybe step out of the political sphere. If it's just a madhouse, where most patients are relatively quiet and more or less reasonable, but the rowdier ones have decided to slug it out for turf, I want no part of it whatsoever.

Apathy isn't an accurate description of my state of mind on this - I am by no means apathetic, I just doubt very much whether there's much I could do to make things any better, and I am pretty certain that there's a great potential for harm to me and mine should I make a nuisance of myself.

87 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:53:03pm

re: #83 MikeySDCA

In a much simpler age, when my Arkansas ancestors voted and fought for secession, it was a mind-bogglingly stupid idea. It hasn't improved since.

I knew you was involved.

88 Gus  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:53:07pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

These idiots seem to think a state can just withdraw from the public contract we call the Constitution, and things will be just ducky. Never mind most states get a lot of their funding from the Federal government. Who exactly will pay to fix the interstate hiways? How are they going to get goods for their economies to sell? And who will defend them if Canada or Mexico took a pot shot? I have to wonder if any idiot seriously considering secession has bothered to follow their thoughts to their logical conclusions. I'm guessing probably not.

Could you imagine for example Texas without NASA? Or Texas without all of the defense contract and manufacturing. The state universities and research that receive billions in federal funding. The water projects, the farm subsidies, highway projects and so on.

Secession talk is another paleocon neo-Constitutionalist sideshow.

89 albusteve  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:53:35pm

re: #84 Salamantis

Romanticism - the ascendency of emotion over intellection - leads to very bad places when applied to politics. Always has.

liberalism to a tee

90 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:53:45pm

re: #39 Russkilitlover

Late to all threads today so don't know extent of discussion but I don't see here the condemnation of the violence in Pittsburgh as opposed to the perceived "violence" at 9/12 DC or other Tea Party protests.

You haven't already gotten enough condemnation from every other right wing blog?

91 Digital Display  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:55:13pm

re: #84 Salamantis

Romanticism - the ascendency of emotion over intellection - leads to very bad places when applied to politics. Always has.

Look..We have to stop meeting at small cafe's in Paris and talking about this romanticism stuff...It's over rated

92 flyers1974  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:55:15pm

The photo accompanying this Afro.com article is also featured on the newspaper edition of the Baltimore Afro-American.

[Link: www.afro.com...]

93 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:55:40pm

re: #40 BryanS

Is that why you call Lew Rockwell racist? Honest question--I don't really follow the fringes to know.

Click the link in the post to see one example of Rockwell's racism. Or you could just go to his website and start reading some of the hateful crap. I won't link to it any more than I'd link to Stormfront.

94 SixDegrees  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:55:40pm

re: #88 Gus 802

Could you imagine for example Texas without NASA? Or Texas without all of the defense contract and manufacturing. The state universities and research that receive billions in federal funding. The water projects, the farm subsidies, highway projects and so on.

Secession talk is another paleocon neo-Constitutionalist sideshow.

Their argument is that all that Federal money was tax dollars what was tooken away from them in the first place.

Or something.

You don't have to answer; I know. And no amount of facts, logic or reasoning will convince these knuckle-draggers to think.

95 Kragar  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:55:49pm

re: #90 Charles

You haven't already gotten enough condemnation from every other right wing blog?

CONFORM!

///

96 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:56:07pm
97 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 4:57:42pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

In my own case, maybe step out of the political sphere. If it's just a madhouse, where most patients are relatively quiet and more or less reasonable, but the rowdier ones have decided to slug it out for turf, I want no part of it whatsoever.

Apathy isn't an accurate description of my state of mind on this - I am by no means apathetic, I just doubt very much whether there's much I could do to make things any better, and I am pretty certain that there's a great potential for harm to me and mine should I make a nuisance of myself.

That's precisely the mindset that perpetuated the Soviet Union and its hegemony over its satellites for so long - and precisely the mindset against which Vaclav Havel so greatly inveighed, at great personal cost, but ultimately in triumph.

I humbly suggest that you think about reading (or re-reading) The Power of the Powerless, and see about getting yer mojo back.

98 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:00:58pm

re: #27 Charles

They didn't miss it. They just think the wrong side won.

MY standing answer to that sentiment:

Youtube Video
99 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:01:14pm

re: #89 albusteve

liberalism to a tee

No, leftism. Liberalism and leftism are far from identical.

Classic Millian Liberals have always been as opposed to communism as Classical Burkean Conservatives have been to fascism. Classic Liberals abhor totalitarian systems, but leftists, otoh, have yet to meet one - whether communist, fascist, or theocratic - with which they have not become enthralled, so long as it was anti-American.

100 BryanS  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:01:30pm

re: #93 Charles

Yikes! The link says it all. I think I remember reading of some controversy of Paul's former newsletters. You don't drag out disowning someone like Ron Paul did when someone is that hateful.

101 [deleted]  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:01:40pm
102 Athos  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:01:59pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

Each needs to make their own choice. I am involved in local politics - and do have the ears of some on a state / national level. Charles is fighting the fight - and we have the ability via LGF to fight.

The real issue starts to become numbers - we have to outnumber the whackos. We know we do - but if the majority who aren't whacko stay silent - the noisy ones will gain what they covet...and it will be far harder to disengage them. At that point, one would have to consider the departure scenario.

But it will not be easy, painless, or quick given the circumstances that are causing so many to be blinded to the positions of these people and just accept new / more 'allies' against the left and or islamofascists because they share the same enemy.

At some point the irony (and failure) of enabling fascism in order to fight facism will eventually come to them.

103 HelloDare  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:02:22pm

Drudge finally took down that phony "Soldiers arrest G-20 protester" headline. Forget the exact wording he used.

104 albusteve  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:03:00pm

re: #99 Salamantis

No, leftism. Liberalism and leftism are far from identical.

Classic Millian Liberals have always been as opposed to communism as Classical Burkean Conservatives have been to fascism. Classic Liberals abhor totalitarian systems, but leftists, otoh, have yet to meet one - whether communist, fascist, or theocratic - with which they have not become enthralled, so long as it was anti-American.

I'm working on the distinction, thanks

105 BryanS  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:03:38pm

re: #101 RightLogic

Ummm...read the link from the post. This one doesn't seem to be an exaggeration.

106 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:04:05pm

re: #101 RightLogic

Bye now!

107 Sharmuta  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:04:38pm

re: #101 RightLogic

Gee- how many butthurts can you squeeze into one comment?

108 SpaceJesus  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:04:43pm

re: #59 Guanxi88

I'm sure the Honorable Judge Napolitano just hasn't seen that one.

maybe he did once when he was sane, but apparently his honor has lost his fucking mind

109 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:05:24pm

Ruskitlover we talked about the anarchists at length in other threads, including how the Don't Tread on Me flags were also at their demonstrations.

Want to continue talking about it? I'm game. Paleotard's like the ones who org'ed the tea parties love the G20 Demonstrators because they are also against the NWO. That's why Pat Buchanan was at the first Anarchist demo that went violent in Seattle to speak on the same stage as Tom Hayden.

Or we could look at it another way, how these demos are by rote, happen every G-20, amount to nothing, and aren't part of the Democrat party. We could look at how newsworthy they are compared to townhalls for one of the more politically divisive issues of today, Health care.

We could also ask questions like: Did any Democratic pundits or Elected leaders speak out for the G20 Disorder? Did any Liberal Channels pimp the G20 disorder?

110 Bagua  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:07:31pm

re: #101 RightLogic

That was one of the better written flounces, must have spent a long time on it.

Off into the ether!

111 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:16:26pm

Lew Rockwell's "capitalist paradise" is ... China.

[Link: www.thelibertypapers.org...]

Just to remind everyone of just another "wonderful" thing he said.

112 Salamantis  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:17:02pm

If we leave and let LaHood win now, what price will we take next time for our dignity? A thousand dollars? Five hundred? Less? Or just the best offer?

- Hull Barret, in Pale Rider, 1985, directed by and starring Clint Eastwood.

Sal: We cannot simply cede the field and allow the crazies to go unanswered. Silence implies acquiescence.

113 lawhawk  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:18:05pm

re: #103 HelloDare

About damned time.

114 Ojoe  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:22:19pm

re: #86 Guanxi88

I just doubt very much whether there's much I could do to make things any better

You might try joining

The Modern Whig Party.

115 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:23:09pm

re: #112 Salamantis

If we leave and let LaHood win now, what price will we take next time for our dignity? A thousand dollars? Five hundred? Less? Or just the best offer?

- Hull Barret, in Pale Rider, 1985, directed by and starring Clint Eastwood.

Sal: We cannot simply cede the field and allow the crazies to go unanswered. Silence implies acquiescence.

As many updings as possible for that one! If I had a sockpuppet, I'd upding you twice.

116 Fenris  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:26:00pm

Reason.com's Nick Gillespie on Napolitano

Now the cynic kicks in: I question Nick's assessment that the protests are part of a libertarian uprising, so much as an exercise in playing favorites party-wise. Note that the left-libertarians along the lines of Carol Moore and Bill Maher have settled down now.

117 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:27:00pm

re: #116 fenrisdesigns

Reason.com's Nick Gillespie on Napolitano

Now the cynic kicks in: I question Nick's assessment that the protests are part of a libertarian uprising, so much as an exercise in playing favorites party-wise. Note that the left-libertarians along the lines of Carol Moore and Bill Maher have settled down now.

About half of the content at Reason is pure crap.

118 freetoken  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:29:11pm

re: #117 Charles

About half of the content at Reason is pure crap.

... which I discovered over time. What became clear to me is that there are different interests/groups writing under the "libertarian" banner, including front groups for corporations, anarchists, etc.

119 Fenris  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:31:05pm

re: #117 Charles

And here I thought Nick and I were friends. He's off birthday card list!

120 funky chicken  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:32:55pm

re: #114 Ojoe

You might try joining

The Modern Whig Party.

Or supporting Christine Todd Whitman's group:

[Link: www.republican-leadership.com...]

121 dwells38  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:34:12pm

This Rockwell's easy to dislike. What's with the effete superior drawl?
First class pr**k.

Imagine how Rockwell would protest if a prominent black blogger wrote something like : "The tea party protests raged until they realized the checkered Nascar flag was about to drop and it was time to get back to the trailer park. Numerous protesters were heard to yell at their 4th wives and daughters "You git back in the truck 'fore I tan yer behind with mah bay-yelt" in between massive spweings of chewing tabacco onto the public sidewalk"

Napolitano (a judge! who shoudl know true objectivity) and Fox should know better. I don't mind right leaning outlets counterbalancing the left leaners and will even tolerate a little gouging as payback for the field day they had on Bush. But allowing someone who's known to have taken the fall for Paul (who I'm certain agreed with every word or he would have protested long ago) for racist speech be featured on a Fox news analysis show is way over the line.

The topic is retarded too. How stable would the US be if states started seceeding everytime they disagreed with the Prez/party in power. Gimme a break.

122 dwells38  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:37:21pm

re: #5 HelloDare

WTF?

Is he going to give guest spot to Osama Bin Laden?

123 dwells38  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:41:32pm

re: #5 HelloDare

LewRockwell.com believes that the U.S. is in the grip of a fascist government. Rockwell refers to his political opponents as "fascisti," and to supporters of American policies as "storm troopers of the regime" and proponents of "red-state fascism."

Sounds like "Chutch" LOL!

124 wrenchwench  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 5:42:30pm

re: #120 funky chicken

Or supporting Christine Todd Whitman's group:

[Link: www.republican-leadership.com...]

I bookmarked that a few weeks ago, and was looking at it earlier today. I wish it was a little more lively...

125 BlackFedora  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 6:01:48pm

Know what pisses me off? I used to think Napolitano was sane and thoughtful at one time and then he turns out to be a fucking kook.

126 unclassifiable  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 6:03:15pm

re: #117 Charles

About half the content of anything these days is pure crap.

/ok this is a drive-by coupled with an Iron Fist warning. Why else would I post.

Aloha

127 BlackFedora  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 6:03:19pm

Oh Jesus Andrew.. try not to sound so damn happy about the possibility of our country disintegrating...

128 drbuhd  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 11:45:37pm

Did anybody pick up Napolitano's suggesting that nullifying the fugitive slave law was somehow a BAD thing?? what the?

129 spiderx  Fri, Sep 25, 2009 11:55:20pm

I used to write for lewrockwell.com

my articles were mostly critical of the iraq war. Don't know why i submitted them to lewrockwell. At the time I was sort of a libertarian. I consider myself on the left now.

anyway...for each article i would get roughly 50 or so emails. I kid you not that at least half of them were anti-semitic

130 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 9:40:13am
131 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:44:30am

re: #130 Kennyboy

Get the hell off my website.

132 lurking faith  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:54:10am

re: #130 Kennyboy

So you don't care what the investigation shows; you just know what must have really happened.

Lose the conspiracy-think; it's amazing how much clearer things are without it.

133 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:49:22pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

Pretty sure we fought a war to settle the secession issue. Maybe these two missed it?

Sharmuta -

True, and even before that, President Andrew Jackson was ready, willing and able to hang "Nullifiers." The American Civil War settled the issue on Secession - It only applies by consent (highly unlikely) or military victory (as yet NOT won.)
The reserved powers clause is another issue. Reserved Powers are generally areas where the Federal Government has "NO POLICY." In such cases, the States may assume Powers or leave them to the People. As to disputes between the States and the Federal Government - That Is What Courts Are For.

-S-

134 maynard  Mon, Sep 28, 2009 9:21:43am

re: #133 Dr. Shalit

The American Civil War settled the issue on Secession - It only applies by consent (highly unlikely) or military victory (as yet NOT won.)
The reserved powers clause is another issue. Reserved Powers are generally areas where the Federal Government has "NO POLICY." In such cases, the States may assume Powers or leave them to the People. As to disputes between the States and the Federal Government - That Is What Courts Are For.

No.

The 10th Amendment does not describe an area where the Federal Government has no policy, it describes the area where it has no authority. The difference is clear in the wording: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That means the Courts are bound by the Constitution to let the states exercise authority that isn't specifically given to the FedGov. Now, whether or not they do that is another question.

That leads back to the question of secession - is it within the defined powers of the federal government to prohibit a state from leaving the union, or is it within the unenumerated powers of the state to secede from the union? By the 10th Amendment, it belongs to the state.

Lincoln's problem was that he thought he had sworn an oath to protect the Union, when he had sworn an oath to protect the Constitution. It does not require consent, but must be won by force because people think it does.

135 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 10:49:08am

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