Dark Charges from Cardinal Mahony’s Inner Circle

Religion • Views: 2,707

Some very disturbing information has come to light in the long-running scandal of child molestation in the Los Angeles diocese of the Roman Catholic Church. A former vicar has testified in a civil case that Cardinal Roger Mahony specifically instructed him not to report allegations of sexual misconduct by a now-defrocked priest: Dark charges from Mahony’s inner circle.

Msgr. Richard Loomis, former vicar of clergy for the archdiocese, said under oath that in the year 2000 he wrote a memo advocating that the archdiocese inform police about allegations of sexual abuse by a now-defrocked priest named Michael Baker. Cardinal Roger Mahony, Loomis testified, directed him not to report the allegations.

That testimony grabbed the attention of those who have followed the years-long molestation scandal, in which Mahony has fought like a tomcat to withhold documents sought by investigators and has had PR teams build him an image as a reformer.

In all that time, no one from Mahony’s inner circle had dared stand up and point a finger at the cardinal until Loomis did so last week. With the testimony by Loomis, there wasn’t just a challenge to the archdiocesan leader, but a suggestion that a paper trail exists.

Loomis testified that when he found out Baker was still performing baptisms despite allegations of abuse in the 1990s and orders to discontinue ministry, he sent a memo to Mahony recommending that they call the police. He testified that Mahony “wrote on the memo and initially his response was to proceed but then through the general counsel’s office I was told … that we were going to wait,” said Loomis.

The monsignor also testified that Mahony ordered him not to inform parishes where Baker had worked of allegations against the priest.

Nobody was more surprised by Loomis’ candor last week than a young man known in court records as Luis C., a former altar boy who was one of Baker’s victims beginning in the mid-’90s.

“I was in shock,” said Luis, who is now 29 and working in an auto body shop after marital and other problems, for which he has received years of therapy. “Thanks to God, Msgr. Loomis had the heart to come out and admit” that he had tried in vain to get the archdiocese to take action.

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462 comments
1 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:27:43pm

The cardinal will get a promotion to Rome and have fun chatting with Cardinal Law from Boston.
(Or as Jay Leno called him, Cardinal Above-the-law)

The Church really needs to keep its house in order.

2 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:28:23pm

Is it ok to burn these guys at the stake—you know, a modern day witch trial/burning?

3 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:29:39pm
It must have been tough to narrow it down to just one case. In a 2004 “Report to the People of God,” Mahony told parishioners he had left five priests in the ministry despite complaints that they were molesters. A Times investigation came up with a different total, though, finding that Mahony had left an additional 11 priests in the ministry after concerns were raised about their inappropriate behavior with children.

Would Mahony know the truth if it bit him on his butt?

4 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:30:21pm

RINO!

/ sorry, wrong thread.

5 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:30:52pm

And while I’m at it, can someone explain how religion is a necessary requirement to live a moral life, as the devout always like to remind me?

6 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:34:34pm

There has been a long and sordid history of Church leaders moving pedophile priests from parish to parish, allowing them to start their sexually perverted paths over fresh again and again, and molest yet more and more unsuspecting children.

7 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:35:31pm

O/T… you may want to reconsider which flu shot to get if you haven’t already gotten the regular seasonal one… there is new information from the Canadians…
[Link: www.cbc.ca…]

8 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:35:34pm

Hmmm…little Lucas from the last thread (and his father’s gun) might want to explain to these men why they shouldn’t be “bad guys.”

No, let’s be honest, children are innocent, and adults are supposed to be the protectors.

9 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:35:54pm

This is pretty disgusting, frankly.

I was a catechism teacher about 10 years ago here in southern California. It got increasingly difficult to teach children about candor and contrition when it wasn’t coming from the upper echelons.

Sad that this has to come to light via sworn testimony.

10 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:36:04pm

re: #1 Kosh’s Shadow

The cardinal will get a promotion to Rome and have fun chatting with Cardinal Law from Boston.
(Or as Jay Leno called him, Cardinal Above-the-law)

The Church really needs to keep its house in order.

The Church needs to open it’s house to law enforcement. It’s the high-level coverup that turns my stomach, possibly more so than the abuse itself.

Time to render unto Caesar.

11 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:37:46pm

re: #10 SixDegrees

The Church needs to open it’s house to law enforcement. It’s the high-level coverup that turns my stomach, possibly more so than the abuse itself.

Time to render unto Caesar.

Yes. I can understand some people, even priests, giving in to temptation, but the Church should work to stop it, not to hide it.

12 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:38:06pm

It is about time the truth is told.

13 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:38:10pm

re: #3 MandyManners

/He might like that/
This is a story not unlike a real onion… the layers just keep peeling away.
It’s not going to be wrapped up any time soon, I am afraid. The Church hasn’t fully incorporated the truth that ’ it’s the coverup, Stupid’ is a very real concept, just as bad as the original act.

14 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:38:34pm

re: #9 karmic_inquisitor

Sad Good that this has to come to light via sworn testimony.

As a Catholic, I say let the chips fall where they may. Sworn testimony from someone as high up the chain as Msgr Loomis is just the ticket.

15 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:39:10pm

re: #14 Cato the Elder

Yes.

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:39:33pm

Didn’t they ever teach children that lying about something only makes it worse, and that eventually you would get caught, and then have to deal with the repercussions of the original action and the lie both?

Didn’t they think that was true?

17 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:39:37pm

re: #7 tradewind

O/T… you may want to reconsider which flu shot to get if you haven’t already gotten the regular seasonal one… there is new information from the Canadians…
[Link: www.cbc.ca…]

Do all Canadians get free flu shots?

18 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:39:40pm

re: #6 Salamantis

There has been a long and sordid history of Church leaders moving pedophile priests from parish to parish, allowing them to start their sexually perverted paths over fresh again and again, and molest yet more and more unsuspecting children.

Correct. The Church has, for a very long time, tried to deal with this problem internally. As complaints start piling up, they sweep everything under the rug and reassign the offender to a distant church, often after a short stint at a closed monastery for retraining and admonitions - none of which are effective.

They need to turn such complaints over to the police and open their doors and records to law enforcement so offenders can be prosecuted and imprisoned if found guilty.

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:40:32pm

re: #5 BryanS

And while I’m at it, can someone explain how religion is a necessary requirement to live a moral life, as the devout always like to remind me?

Not going to try that.

In my very humble opinion (as a devout, but not overtly so, Christian), it is NOT necessary.

I would add that I feel (feel) that “faith” helps, and I define faith as a wee bit different than religion.

20 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:42:09pm

re: #14 Cato the Elder

As a Catholic, I say let the chips fall where they may. Sworn testimony from someone as high up the chain as Msgr Loomis is just the ticket.

Agree.

21 claire  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:43:11pm

Can priests be fired? Why the hell didn’t they tell the parishes and the police anyway, regardless of what they were “ordered” to do? Don’t some things like basic human decency supercede the heirarchy? No?

22 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:43:42pm

It doesn’t go away unitl the income from tithing/contributions goes away.

23 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:43:53pm

re: #19 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It’s not helping these priests any, it seems. Until they fess up, take responsibility, and face whatever punishment is due to them, they will always be in my minds hypocrites. I’d think that those pedaling a system of beliefs would understand hypocrisy would be the most damaging to their cause—worse than the actual acts.

24 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #23 BryanS

It’s not helping these priests any, it seems. Until they fess up, take responsibility, and face whatever punishment is due to them, they will always be in my minds hypocrites. I’d think that those pedaling a system of beliefs would understand hypocrisy would be the most damaging to their cause—worse than the actual acts.

There is nothing worse than the actual acts.

25 swamprat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:45:18pm

Something about a millstone…

26 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:45:44pm

re: #23 BryanS

I’d think that those pedaling peddling a system of beliefs would understand hypocrisy would be the most damaging to their cause—worse than the actual acts.

FTFY

27 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:45:44pm

re: #17 debutaunt

No, just the people who don’t pay taxes. The taxpayers foot the bill for everyone.

28 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:46:04pm

This sort of behavior by priests alienates many from their faith. But the cover-ups by higher-ups, once they are exposed to public attention, alienate even more.

For a faith professedly concerned with expanding its flock for the ostensible purpose of saving souls, this sort of thing is the very definition of an own-goal.

29 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:46:22pm

re: #23 BryanS

It’s not helping these priests any, it seems. Until they fess up, take responsibility, and face whatever punishment is due to them, they will always be in my minds hypocrites. I’d think that those pedaling a system of beliefs would understand hypocrisy would be the most damaging to their cause—worse than the actual acts.

Yes. One would certainly assume they could grasp that.

/obviously not in every case

30 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:48:27pm

re: #24 wee fury

There is nothing worse than the actual acts.

I would agree—I meant to say, hypocrisy would be more damaging to their cause. Individual bad actors can be cast us just that—bad actors and not a characteristic of the whole. This covering and stonewalling only serves to discredit their whole church.

31 Racer X  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:49:04pm

re: #28 Salamantis

This sort of behavior by priests alienates many from their faith. But the cover-ups by higher-ups, once they are exposed to public attention, alienate even more.

For a faith professedly concerned with expanding its flock for the ostensible purpose of saving souls, this sort of thing is the very definition of an own-goal.

Exactly!

The sad part is that the higher ups have had many opportunities to make it right, yet they continue to cover up.

32 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:50:46pm

re: #30 BryanS

Yes.

33 ryannon  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:51:00pm

re: #2 BryanS

Is it ok to burn these guys at the stake—you know, a modern day witch trial/burning?

Sounds great!

Who can we go after next?

34 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:51:35pm

re: #21 claire

Can priests be fired? Why the hell didn’t they tell the parishes and the police anyway, regardless of what they were “ordered” to do? Don’t some things like basic human decency supercede the heirarchy? No?

Priests can be defocked or excommunicated if the church wishes to sever ties with them. Both are severe punishments and are generally only used when someone has actively denounced church teachings. One could, I suppose, make such an argument here, but forgiveness plays a central role in Christian teaching, and so tempers rushes to such extremes.

There is, however, nothing stopping the Church from notifying authorities about allegations of abuse, and allowing law enforcement to do what it does best - investigate and bring charges, if appropriate. Obedience to the Church hierarchy takes a back seat to moral imperatives, and those in the Church who learn about such abuse are obligated to either bypass others in the Church who are intent on covering it up, or to bring pressure to bear on the offender to turn himself in, should knowledge arise as a result of formal confession.

35 claire  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:53:09pm

re: #33 ryannon

Sounds great!

Who can we go after next?

Something will pop-up. The human race never fails to disappoint.

36 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:54:04pm

Galatians 5.13: “For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another.”

I assume that Paul would apply this even more so to the clergy, the shepherds of the flock.

Perhaps some need to go back and read it.

37 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:54:05pm

re: #33 ryannon

Sounds great!

Who can we go after next?

I think we can stop there—figured they would appreciate the irony.

38 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:54:10pm

I would like to see the child abusing priests put in jail and the key thrown away.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:55:02pm

How many Catholics have lost their faith because of this crap?

This, too, is sad.

40 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:55:38pm

re: #31 Racer X

Exactly!

The sad part is that the higher ups have had many opportunities to make it right, yet they continue to cover up.

Absolutely correct.
And they are wrong to do so.

Something I think of as sort of funny in a macabre sort of way - the name of my daughter’s HS changed the year she started attending from “Bishop So&So HS” to another name, because of very strong (and probably true) rumors that Bishop So&So had been involved in some of these activities.

Protecting the “reputation” of these priests did nothing except spread the misery for all concerned. The higher-ups would have been better off being more concerned about the young lives at risk from these priests, than being concerned about the adult priests who should have been held FULLY accountable for their heinous actions.

41 claire  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:55:44pm

re: #34 SixDegrees

Yeah, I would think they have a professional obligation to do so. How can they KNOW this is happening, KNOW who it’s happening to, look the boys in the eye and do nothing about it for years? It’s awful.

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:56:08pm

If you’ve been following the story of the Los Angeles archdiocese, this is really just the tip of the iceberg. Mahony has been running a PR campaign for years, resisting releasing information, paying off accusers, etc. etc. etc.

The facade is finally beginning to crack. When it really falls down, this is going to be nearly as bad as the situation in Ireland, where a majority of children in Catholic schools were molested or abused.

43 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:56:51pm

re: #41 claire

It is a moral obligation.

44 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:56:55pm

re: #40 reine.de.tout

This might just be why my daughter’s high school is named after a nearby road, and the school mascot is a natural phenomenom. And not a scary one, either.

45 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:57:20pm

re: #39 EmmmieG

How many Catholics have lost their faith because of this crap?

This, too, is sad.

My parents converted to the Episcopal Church.
Along with the parents of many of the kids I was in grammer school with.

46 Racer X  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:57:39pm
47 claire  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:57:51pm

I’d bet Mahoney is guilty of it himself and being blackmailed.

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:58:30pm

re: #42 Charles

If you’ve been following the story of the Los Angeles archdiocese, this is really just the tip of the iceberg. Mahony has been running a PR campaign for years, resisting releasing information, paying off accusers, etc. etc. etc.

The facade is finally beginning to crack. When it really falls down, this is going to be nearly as bad as the situation in Ireland, where a majority of children in Catholic schools were molested or abused.

Am I permitted to post that, based upon Mahony’s official actions, I’m inclined to wonder about his own personal behavior?

49 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:59:41pm

re: #21 claire

Can priests be fired? Why the hell didn’t they tell the parishes and the police anyway, regardless of what they were “ordered” to do? Don’t some things like basic human decency supercede the heirarchy? No?

Individual Catholics are supposed to examine their consciences while trying to make their moral decisions.

Obviously, a massive FAIL in this case.

50 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 3:59:45pm

re: #47 claire

We should deal in facts tho, not unfounded gossip.

51 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:00:08pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

My parents converted to the Episcopal Church.
Along with the parents of many of the kids I was in grammer school with.

Unfortunately, such a switch in religious denominations is no guarantee of safety for one’s children:

[Link: www.houstonpress.com…]

52 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:01:18pm

re: #41 claire

Yeah, I would think they have a professional obligation to do so. How can they KNOW this is happening, KNOW who it’s happening to, look the boys in the eye and do nothing about it for years? It’s awful.

How? They are morally bankrupt, in spite of their faith.

53 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:01:33pm

re: #51 Salamantis

Unfortunately, such a switch in religious denominations is no guarantee of safety for one’s children:

[Link: www.houstonpress.com…]

Sal - correct. In this case, they joined a small conservative congregation that had been in my hometown for years, with no hint of any scandal, ever.

54 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:02:47pm

re: #42 Charles

If you’ve been following the story of the Los Angeles archdiocese, this is really just the tip of the iceberg. Mahony has been running a PR campaign for years, resisting releasing information, paying off accusers, etc. etc. etc.

The facade is finally beginning to crack. When it really falls down, this is going to be nearly as bad as the situation in Ireland, where a majority of children in Catholic schools were molested or abused.

I was reading about the cases in Ireland recently. It quite literally left me speechless. The schools involved specialized in orphans and juvenile delinquents, and abuse was abetted by civil authorities who callously cared little for the victims.

As I’ve said upthread, the best thing - and the only decent thing - to do at this point would be for Mahoney to fling open the doors and records of the Church to authorities and provide them with any and all evidence that would help to track offenders down and stop them, as well as punish them for past offenses where possible.

That Mahoney is stonewalling, and actively creating a facade suggesting there is no problem, is very bad indeed. It suggests not only a much more widespread problem, but culpability at or near the very top of the Church’s hierarchy.

55 claire  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:04:15pm

re: #50 wee fury

We should deal in facts tho, not unfounded gossip.

Yes- Not making a declaration, just calculating the odds.

56 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:04:42pm

OT: A love story…
The Orangutan and the Hound

57 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:05:23pm

re: #47 claire

I’d bet Mahoney is guilty of it himself and being blackmailed.

Unknown. He is, however, accused of culpability in that he actively engaged in a coverup of the abuse and sought to shield abusers from prosecution. He needs to answer these allegations. The best way would be to open his records to authorities, a step which he has apparently fought for some time.

58 wee fury  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:06:20pm

Off to eat dinner before my internally held anger makes it impossible for me to digest my food.

60 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:06:50pm

re: #42 Charles

If you’ve been following the story of the Los Angeles archdiocese, this is really just the tip of the iceberg. Mahony has been running a PR campaign for years, resisting releasing information, paying off accusers, etc. etc. etc.

The facade is finally beginning to crack. When it really falls down, this is going to be nearly as bad as the situation in Ireland, where a majority of children in Catholic schools were molested or abused.

And, I believe this is the tiniest possible glimpse, of what will eventually come out. This is just a revolting saga, that has left countless damaged children & people of faith, in its wake.

61 lostlakehiker  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:07:31pm

re: #57 SixDegrees

Unknown. He is, however, accused of culpability in that he actively engaged in a coverup of the abuse and sought to shield abusers from prosecution. He needs to answer these allegations. The best way would be to open his records to authorities, a step which he has apparently fought for some time.

What does it take to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant?

62 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:08:33pm

re: #61 lostlakehiker

What does it take to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant?

What does it take to be charged with aiding and abetting?

63 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:08:41pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Not included: Brussels Sprouts, Chard, Daikon radish, Broccoli, Fava beans!

64 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:08:57pm

re: #5 BryanS

And while I’m at it, can someone explain how religion is a necessary requirement to live a moral life, as the devout always like to remind me?

I’m not a believer never mind a devout one but I can certainly remind you as I get this shit too “Morality means nothing unless it is given to you by a certified magical law bringing entity”.

65 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:09:13pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Wonderful!

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:11:52pm

re: #65 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It’s pretty cheesy but I enjoyed it too.

67 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:14:09pm

re: #61 lostlakehiker

What does it take to get a judge to sign off on a search warrant?

Reasonable cause and specifics of what they’d be looking for.

This is complicated by a couple of factors. There may not be any damning written evidence. A record of frequent transfers, for instance, isn’t evidence of guilt and is actually fairly common as populations shift and demand for priests shifts with it. And knowledge of spoken admissions or revelations may be protected by the seal of the confessional, which no warrant is going to breach.

The revelations coming to light in this investigation may provide the probable cause needed to justify a warrant. Whether it turns up anything is another matter.

Again, the Church ought to be actively cooperating with authorities. Mahoney is not. This in itself is a bad thing.

68 lostlakehiker  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:14:48pm

re: #18 SixDegrees

Correct. The Church has, for a very long time, tried to deal with this problem internally. As complaints start piling up, they sweep everything under the rug and reassign the offender to a distant church, often after a short stint at a closed monastery for retraining and admonitions - none of which are effective.

They need to turn such complaints over to the police and open their doors and records to law enforcement so offenders can be prosecuted and imprisoned if found guilty.

Hospitals, (secular, religious, profit or nonprofit, there isn’t any difference) have a longstanding pattern of doing the same when it comes to doctors or nurses who murder patients. They smell a rat, and they know the pattern cannot be just an accident, but there’s no ironclad proof and they’d rather not see it come to that. So they write a glowing recommendation of the offender to the next institution, and send him or her far away. And wait for the heat to die down.

This suggests the need for a new approach in law enforcement: if an institution shines a light on such a situation when it first comes to their attention, the institution is held immune from civil and criminal penalties. Sure, they get off without paying. But the law catches the wrongdoers much faster. The damages to the victims can be covered from government funds—-it’d be well worth the cost, to head off what would have become a long and well hidden crime spree.

69 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:15:11pm

re: #64 Jimmah

I’m not a believer never mind a devout one but I can certainly remind you as I get this shit too “Morality means nothing unless it is given to you by a certified magical law bringing entity”.

And this magical entity apparently thinks raping kids is just peachy. At least the behavior of the church sends that message.

70 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:15:39pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

It’s pretty cheesy but I enjoyed it too.

CHEESY?!?!
… … … … … … … … … … WHACK

:D

71 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:16:18pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Fall Veggies And Greens: Plant Your Own (PHOTOS)

Now spouting in our front yard: radishes, beets, turnips, carrots, spinach, and peas.

72 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:16:29pm

Ohhh ick…

I have to say the obvious first which is I am appalled at how the Church has handled these things. This is a sickening tragedy on dozens of levels.

However, one thing that doesn’t get said enough is how sorry I feel for good and decent Catholics who have to feel a sting whenever one of these stories comes up.

So to any Catholic Lizards out there, obviously the world knows that most priests are not evil and that neither are you for being a part of the Church.

73 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:16:34pm

And, while all of this was starting to hit the fan, Cardinal Mahoney built a new, modern cathedral at a price tag of $189.7 million dollars.
It’s nicnamed the “Taj Mahoney”.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

(It’s a beautiful building, I was prepared not to like it.)

74 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:17:30pm

re: #68 lostlakehiker

Kind of like a whistle blower law—but for the organization. Haven’t thought your idea fully through, but at first glance that sounds like a good idea.

75 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Now spouting in our front yard: radishes, beets, turnips, carrots, spinach, and peas.

*muttering* … if we were past 100 comments … !

76 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:17:49pm

re: #68 lostlakehiker

Hospitals, (secular, religious, profit or nonprofit, there isn’t any difference) have a longstanding pattern of doing the same when it comes to doctors or nurses who murder patients. They smell a rat, and they know the pattern cannot be just an accident, but there’s no ironclad proof and they’d rather not see it come to that. So they write a glowing recommendation of the offender to the next institution, and send him or her far away. And wait for the heat to die down.

This suggests the need for a new approach in law enforcement: if an institution shines a light on such a situation when it first comes to their attention, the institution is held immune from civil and criminal penalties. Sure, they get off without paying. But the law catches the wrongdoers much faster. The damages to the victims can be covered from government funds—-it’d be well worth the cost, to head off what would have become a long and well hidden crime spree.

Interesting thought. I can see some problems with it - for example, letting the institution off the hook when they’re actually guilty might ensnare the innocent as fall guys - but it might be worth looking into with an eye toward such issues.

77 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:18:35pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

I kinda gave up on spinach. I don’t know what my problem is but it never goes very well for me.

78 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:19:42pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

I kinda gave up on spinach. I don’t know what my problem is but it never goes very well for me.

Never eat spinach when you are recovering from a bone break; substances in it retard the bone knitting process.

79 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:21:29pm

re: #73 Floral Giraffe

And, while all of this was starting to hit the fan, Cardinal Mahoney built a new, modern cathedral at a price tag of $189.7 million dollars.
It’s nicnamed the “Taj Mahoney”.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

(It’s a beautiful building, I was prepared not to like it.)

Interesting building. And it looks very nice.
My taste preference for a Cathedral, though, would be a more traditional church-y looking building. Just me.

80 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:21:38pm

I don’t know why I still bother even looking at Hot Air. Chickenshitpundit Allahpundit posted the Kirk Cameron “Origin of Species” video, and the comments are just overflowing with fanatical End Timers and creationists.

Yech.

81 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:23:07pm

re: #80 Charles

I can’t help look either. The Green Room put up an article against the pig flu vaccine earlier.

82 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:23:29pm

re: #78 Salamantis

Huh, I never heard that before.

83 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:23:34pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

I kinda gave up on spinach. I don’t know what my problem is but it never goes very well for me.

I hate spinach…If I had my way I would send all Spinach to Gitmo…
Waterboarding my ass.. You threaten me with Spinach I’ll tell you every dark secret I know.. I swear…Hey CIA! you hear what I’m saying?
every secret…
/

84 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:24:57pm

re: #83 HoosierHoops

Spinach salads rule!

85 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:25:06pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

I can’t help look either. The Green Room put up an article against the pig flu vaccine earlier.

It’s every bit as bad as Free Republic.

86 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:25:38pm

re: #78 Salamantis

Never eat spinach when you are recovering from a bone break; substances in it retard the bone knitting process.

Wow. I didn’t know that./

Seriously though, that is an unexpected comment from you, without being followed by a thesis. Unfortunately it sounds like an infomercial for vitamins for fracture victims, guaranteed to have no spinach chemicals.

87 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:25:59pm

Unfathomably heart-rending joy and anguish in Korea.

I am getting more emotional as I get older, as I sit here openly weeping at this tragic story played out over decades.

88 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:26:15pm

And I love spinach too.

89 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:26:51pm

re: #80 Charles

I don’t know why I still bother even looking at Hot Air. Chickenshitpundit Allahpundit posted the Kirk Cameron “Origin of Species” video, and the comments are just overflowing with fanatical End Timers and creationists.

Yech.

I just checked out some of the comments.
And yep, it does appear that the child star has saved them from rational thought.

90 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:27:04pm

re: #80 Charles

I don’t know why I still bother even looking at Hot Air. Chickenshitpundit Allahpundit posted the Kirk Cameron “Origin of Species” video, and the comments are just overflowing with fanatical End Timers and creationists.

Yech.

If Lewis Carroll were alive today, what imagery might he use for an “Alice’s Adventures in Web-land”?

91 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:27:05pm

re: #80 Charles

Yeah, and it has been running for a while now and has wandered into all sorts of ugliness. That is why I now use the phrase “the ugly-o-sphere”. So many of the “right wing” blogs have turned into trash heaps.

BTW, on evolution, over at bloggingheads Razib Khan has a good interview with paleoanthrologist John Hawks on the discoveries at Dmanisi, Georgia and other topics:

[Link: bloggingheads.tv…]

Ray Comfort would not approve…

92 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:27:54pm

I received a copy of National Sunday Law by Jan Marcussen in the mail today. At first I tought it had to be Birch Society stuff but it seems he’s 7th Day Adventist. Whacky stuff. Almost 100 pages long. I can’t believe they have the money to mail this crap out.

93 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:29:00pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

I kinda gave up on spinach. I don’t know what my problem is but it never goes very well for me.

What about your “Malabar spinach”? Did that go well?

94 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:29:10pm

re: #87 SixDegrees

Unfathomably heart-rending joy and anguish in Korea.

I am getting more emotional as I get older, as I sit here openly weeping at this tragic story played out over decades.

Wow.
Thanks for posting that.

95 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:30:23pm

re: #69 BryanS

And this magical entity apparently thinks raping kids is just peachy. At least the behavior of the church sends that message.

To be fair the actual magical law giving entitity only promises to burn you forever if you don’t accept his kind offer of morality etc. It all makes perfect sense to me really…

Image: christianity20Explained.jpg

/just my opinion

96 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:30:44pm

re: #93 wrenchwench

What about your “Malabar spinach”? Did that go well?

Oh, yeah. That stuff works great. I’m growing it hydroponically now and can fit 5-6 plants in the same space it used to take for one in potted soil. Grows like crazy.

97 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:31:26pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Speaking of the Green room… I checked it out just now… see they have a new defense of Glenn Beck up there. Then the very same author has an article lamenting the lack of support for the war in Afghanistan… talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth!

98 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:31:33pm

re: #88 Naso Tang

And I love spinach too.

Off to Gitmo for you! You food terrorists!
*wink*
/Just looking at spinach makes my stomach turn…I’d rather be Waterboarded or tasered…

99 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:31:35pm

re: #80 Charles

I don’t know why I still bother even looking at Hot Air. Chickenshitpundit Allahpundit posted the Kirk Cameron “Origin of Species” video, and the comments are just overflowing with fanatical End Timers and creationists.

Yech.

There are some real holy rollers that hang out there. Sometimes I’m a glutton for punishment and will try to battle them back with common sense, but alas I missed that one from last night. Arguments often boil down to something like the most recent comment by MaximusConfessor who’s arguments are basically that only he has the one true faith and everyone else is a heretic.

100 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:32:31pm

re: #75 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*muttering* … if we were past 100 comments … !

OK, what?

101 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:33:01pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Now spouting in our front yard: radishes, beets, turnips, carrots, spinach, and peas.

What climate zone are you in?

102 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:33:14pm

re: #97 freetoken

Heh. Remember that Glenn Beck just switched to isolationism recently so it’s going to take a while for his fans to adjust. In a year or two the Republican party might be mostly isolationists.

103 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:34:12pm

re: #101 Naso Tang

What climate zone are you in?

Got link where I can find out?

104 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:34:45pm

re: #80 Charles

I don’t know why I still bother even looking at Hot Air. Chickenshitpundit Allahpundit posted the Kirk Cameron “Origin of Species” video, and the comments are just overflowing with fanatical End Timers and creationists.

Yech.

Take heart. ZOMGitsCriss has gone from 300k hits when you first posted the video to 665,093 views just now. Totally viral. The fools are getting their pants mocked off.

105 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:35:51pm

re: #98 HoosierHoops

Off to Gitmo for you! You food terrorists!
*wink*
/Just looking at spinach makes my stomach turn…I’d rather be Waterboarded or tasered…

Well, there is a difference between the slimy coked stuff, though great with eggs Benedict, and fresh young salad.

106 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:36:14pm

re: #104 Cato the Elder

Take heart. ZOMGitsCriss has gone from 300k hits when you first posted the video to 665,093 views just now. Totally viral. The fools are getting their pants mocked off.

and you are just a little too in love with her…

That’s ok, I think she’s superb too…

107 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:36:39pm

re: #71 wrenchwench

Now spouting in our front yard: radishes, beets, turnips, carrots, spinach, and peas.

It will peas me to say that you’ll turnip as a radishing beauty (that is, if you carrot your obvious plan of eating them.)

/and y’ just can’t beet a radishing beauty

(I forgot what I was going to do with spinach)

108 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:37:02pm

re: #100 wrenchwench

OK, what?

Ask and thou shalt receive.

109 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:37:45pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Heh. Remember that Glenn Beck just switched to isolationism recently so it’s going to take a while for his fans to adjust. In a year or two the Republican party might be mostly isolationists.

If the Paulians become a dominant force, that’s sadly true…

I left the Democrats 20 years ago because they had veered so far to the left.
The Republicans are in serious danger of marginalizing themselves through extremism as well.
Third parties tend to be a waste of time and effort, and because of their small size tend to be nurturing grounds for fringe elements looking for a fertile place to take root.

There’s bloody little left for the sane who hail from center-right or center-left.

110 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:37:47pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Heh. Remember that Glenn Beck just switched to isolationism recently so it’s going to take a while for his fans to adjust. In a year or two the Republican party might be mostly isolationists.

Isolationism has always been a strain of thought in the republican party—especially in the out years before Reagan. Remember Bush II running on a “humble foreign policy”?

111 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:38:50pm

re: #105 Naso Tang

Well, there is a difference between the slimy coked stuff, though great with eggs Benedict, and fresh young salad.

I steam my spinach over water with butter melted in it, then add a dollop of Pace Chunky Hot Picante Sauce and a couple of shakes of soy sauce.

112 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:39:01pm

re: #103 wrenchwench

Got link where I can find out?

growing climate zones

This is listed on just about all plant/seed catalog items. Guess you don’t buy that way.

113 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:39:05pm

BTW, Charles… the whackosphere is now convinced that you hate Catholics because you think covering up for pedophilia is bad…

How dare you!

114 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:39:18pm

re: #106 LudwigVanQuixote

and you are just a little too in love with her…

That’s ok, I think she’s superb too…

I wouldn’t be surprised to see her on American TV soon. She could start as Bill Maher’s guest and get her own show from there.

She’s married, by the way, so my love is purely platonic…

115 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:39:28pm

re: #109 RightOnTheLeftCoast

If the Paulians become a dominant force, that’s sadly true…

I left the Democrats 20 years ago because they had veered so far to the left.
The Republicans are in serious danger of marginalizing themselves through extremism as well.
Third parties tend to be a waste of time and effort, and because of their small size tend to be nurturing grounds for fringe elements looking for a fertile place to take root.

There’s bloody little left for the sane who hail from center-right or center-left.


I wish a moderate libertarian party existed. Why can’t their be a party that believes in individual rights AND smaller government?

116 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:40:03pm

re: #111 Salamantis

I steam my spinach over water with butter melted in it, then add a dollop of Pace Chunky Hot Picante Sauce and a couple of shakes of soy sauce.

OMG! … My keyboard just shorted out !

117 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:40:24pm

re: #107 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It will peas me to say that you’ll turnip as a radishing beauty (that is, if you carrot your obvious plan of eating them.)

/and y’ just can’t beet a radishing beauty

(I forgot what I was going to do with spinach)

I believe you have planted the seeds of a pun thread.

118 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:40:25pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

She’s married, by the way, so my love is purely platonic…

The academic’s curse really…

119 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:40:47pm

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

BTW, Charles… the whackosphere is now convinced that you hate Catholics because you think covering up for pedophilia is bad…

How dare you!

The Catholic church is officially in favor of pedophilia, it seems. That, and no condoms or birth control.

120 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:40:56pm

re: #109 RightOnTheLeftCoast

There’s bloody little left for the sane who hail from center-right or center-left.


Nature Politics abhors a vacuum. Something will come along.

121 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:41:02pm

re: #105 Naso Tang

Well, there is a difference between the slimy coked stuff, though great with eggs Benedict, and fresh young salad.

On the science channel were just showing pig butchering and all the stuff they make out of pork..OMG..they skin pigs and make pork rinds of the skin..
Are you kidding me? Pork Rinds are fried pig skin? I thought that was just a name.. And people eat that crap?
*shakes head*

122 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:41:27pm

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

BTW, Charles… the whackosphere is now convinced that you hate Catholics because you think covering up for pedophilia is bad…

How dare you!

I presume they also now hate O’Reilly, because this is one area where he gave no quarter and in particular against Mahoney; but they are of course ignorants, so what can one expect.

123 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:01pm

Look, I beleaf that another pun thread might draw the attention of the stalkers, but we might stem the tide if we get right to the root of things.

124 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:09pm

re: #119 BryanS

The Catholic church is officially in favor of pedophilia, it seems. That, and no condoms or birth control.

That is really unfair - not to despicable cardinals and bishops who covered this up - but to all the good folks who are Catholic.

125 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:11pm

re: #119 BryanS

The Catholic church is officially in favor of pedophilia, it seems.

Nice.

126 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:16pm

It is one of the strange inversions of humanity that such a high ranking member of a major religious order as Cardinal Mahoney would himself personally have facilitated and enabled so much perversion and sin.

127 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:24pm

re: #110 BryanS

Yup, Bush even mocked nation building in his campaign. The Neocon thing only happened recently and is currently being undone.

128 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:42:59pm

re: #121 HoosierHoops

On the science channel were just showing pig butchering and all the stuff they make out of pork..OMG..they skin pigs and make pork rinds of the skin..
Are you kidding me? Pork Rinds are fried pig skin? I thought that was just a name.. And people eat that crap?
*shakes head*

We have less in common than I thought. That is one of my favorite TV snacks, along with a beer.

129 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:43:17pm

Evening Lizards. Hope you are well.

130 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:43:34pm

re: #112 Naso Tang

growing climate zones

This is listed on just about all plant/seed catalog items. Guess you don’t buy that way.

Looks like I’m in 7b. My significant other does all the hard work, I’m just unskilled labor, and tending the garden while he’s on vacation.

131 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:44:52pm

re: #117 wrenchwench

I believe you have planted the seeds of a pun thread.

I am a rooty-beggar, ain’t I?

132 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:44:54pm

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

That is really unfair - not to despicable cardinals and bishops who covered this up - but to all the good folks who are Catholic.

Sorry—I know there are good people who are Catholics. But really, how can someone continue to belong to a faith that by all appearances condones despicable behavior?

133 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:45:42pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

An important point KT.

The isolationism of the Buchanan crowd was not unusual in the GOP. The dominance of the neocon program in the GOP is a 9/11 phenomenon IMO. Remember, it was Reagan who left Lebanon after the attack.

134 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:46:03pm

re: #131 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I am a rooty-beggar, ain’t I?

Assuming Charles will lettuce continue… ;o)

135 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:46:11pm

re: #128 Naso Tang

We have less in common than I thought. That is one of my favorite TV snacks, along with a beer.

LOL
From day one I have said I’m just the worst person about food…I know I’m weird about it..everybody that knows me understands I hate most food…
My curse in life I suppose…
Hope you are well

136 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:46:53pm

re: #129 midwestgak

Evening Lizards. Hope you are well.

Hi there! How are you today?

137 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:47:34pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Yup, Bush even mocked nation building in his campaign. The Neocon thing only happened recently and is currently being undone.

Countries - and I use the term loosely - that are mired in chaotic tribal savagery cannot prevent terrorist organizations from coalescing and training there. And in many cases do not even try.

We facilitate the entry of such ‘countries’ into the family of civilized and well-self-policed nations not so much for their sakes as for our own.

138 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:47:35pm

re: #132 BryanS

Sorry—I know there are good people who are Catholics. But really, how can someone continue to belong to a faith that by all appearances condones despicable behavior?

The entire Church condones pedophilia?

Institutions have a reflexive need to circle the wagons when attacked. This does not make it right. I suggest you read what Benedict XVI has had to say about this matter.

How can you continue to belong to a country that by all appearances condones torture?

139 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:48:17pm

re: #133 freetoken

An important point KT.

The isolationism of the Buchanan crowd was not unusual in the GOP. The dominance of the neocon program in the GOP is a 9/11 phenomenon IMO. Remember, it was Reagan who left Lebanon after the attack.

Yup, there’s a strong tradition among conservatives for isolationism so I think most people will make the transition pretty easily. It’ll just take a little time.

140 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:48:56pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

Hi there! How are you today?

Good {Hoosier}.

141 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:48:57pm

re: #130 wrenchwench

Looks like I’m in 7b. My significant other does all the hard work, I’m just unskilled labor, and tending the garden while he’s on vacation.

Our main garden is in 7a, but unfortunately we are not there regularly enough to really do it right. The neighbors end up picking more than we do.

142 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:49:09pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

It’ll just take a little time.

24 months?

143 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:49:58pm

re: #124 LudwigVanQuixote

Hi Ludwig, I hope you are refreshed and rested. Please note my comment below during your sabbatical:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Followed by several other gratuitous “Ludwig” puns as the thread developed.

144 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:50:08pm

re: #134 RightOnTheLeftCoast

Assuming Charles will lettuce continue… ;o)

Does it peas him off?

/yeah, I know I’ve already bean there

145 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:50:12pm

re: #142 freetoken

Easily. We’re already seeing signs of it now. I’d guess 6 months to a year.

146 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #138 Cato the Elder

The entire Church condones pedophilia?

Institutions have a reflexive need to circle the wagons when attacked. This does not make it right. I suggest you read what Benedict XVI has had to say about this matter.

How can you continue to belong to a country that by all appearances condones torture?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Catholic church is very much about hierarchy, and dogma is passed down from that authority. The Pope could mandate that the church open their doors to a full investigation and accounting for behavior by the civil authorities, but he does not make this call. Despite his statements to the contrary, lack of action on that front amounts to condoning the stonewalling and covering up.

147 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:53:17pm

re: #135 HoosierHoops

LOL
From day one I have said I’m just the worst person about food…I know I’m weird about it..everybody that knows me understands I hate most food…
My curse in life I suppose…
Hope you are well

I’m well thank you.

I have come to realize that some people do genuinely taste things differently, having had one child in particular who wouldn’t eat a hamburger until 16, as an example.

But taste is also acquired. You should get out more :=)

148 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:54:03pm

re: #132 BryanS

Sorry—I know there are good people who are Catholics. But really, how can someone continue to belong to a faith that by all appearances condones despicable behavior?

Because the bad apples do not make the faith. If the pope came out and said we are in favor of this that or the other thing, it would be a different story. However, I really feel bad for Catholic folks who no doubt feel terrible for being painted with this brush.

149 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:54:32pm

BTW, Peter Sinclair’s latest rebuttal to AGW-deniers is on sea rise:

150 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:54:36pm

re: #144 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does it peas him off?

/yeah, I know I’ve already bean there


We bad… ;o)
If we’re not careful, we’re gonna get a real beet down.

151 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:54:39pm

re: #133 freetoken

An important point KT.

The isolationism of the Buchanan crowd was not unusual in the GOP. The dominance of the neocon program in the GOP is a 9/11 phenomenon IMO. Remember, it was Reagan who left Lebanon after the attack.

And Buchanan served in Reagan’s White House, and it seems I keep coming across more names of like-minded individuals who also did, but I can’t think of any at the moment.

152 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:54:45pm

re: #143 Bagua

Hi Ludwig, I hope you are refreshed and rested. Please note my comment below during your sabbatical:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Followed by several other gratuitous “Ludwig” puns as the thread developed.

LOL! Yes I saw that… But I didn’t see so many puns on my name.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:55:27pm

re: #11 Kosh’s Shadow

Yes. I can understand some people, even priests, giving in to temptation, but the Church should work to stop it, not to hide it.

That was something the Church did not seem to understand during the worst of the scandals. It wasn’t the abuse itself that upset the faithful—they understood that you find molesters in every walk of life. It was the evidence of cover-ups, and the fact that their money was now going to defend the guilty.

154 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:56:55pm

re: #146 BryanS

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Catholic church is very much about hierarchy, and dogma is passed down from that authority. The Pope could mandate that the church open their doors to a full investigation and accounting for behavior by the civil authorities, but he does not make this call. Despite his statements to the contrary, lack of action on that front amounts to condoning the stonewalling and covering up.

Where there are investigations ongoing, or where new ones arise, the Church should cooperate fully with what used to be known as the secular arm. I am fully in favor of that.

If what you’re talking about is opening up the entire Church to a fishing expedition, not so much.

155 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:57:18pm

re: #148 LudwigVanQuixote

Because the bad apples do not make the faith. If the pope came out and said we are in favor of this that or the other thing, it would be a different story. However, I really feel bad for Catholic folks who no doubt feel terrible for being painted with this brush.

It’s not the bad behavior of the bad apples that indicts the organization—it’s the behavior of the organization, it’s stonewalling, it’s refusal to clean house.

156 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:57:35pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

Buchanan hit the big time with Nixon, and given RMN’s character we shouldn’t be surprised. I linked to one of the Nixon tapes a couple of weeks back… was ugly.

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:58:18pm

re: #22 Taqyia2Me

It doesn’t go away unitl the income from tithing/contributions goes away.

At my father’s church, some people started contacting the pastor and offering to pay the light bill, or for the school’s basketball team uniforms, rather than give money to the Archdiocese which would go to ends they couldn’t control.

158 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:59:23pm

re: #119 BryanS

It is difficult to consider the revelations about Cardinal Mahony in context of the numerous other similar revelations at other dioceses - which have been documented extensively - and not conclude that the Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise.

159 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:59:51pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

Where there are investigations ongoing, or where new ones arise, the Church should cooperate fully with what used to be known as the secular arm. I am fully in favor of that.

If what you’re talking about is opening up the entire Church to a fishing expedition, not so much.

The fishing expedition is probably what some in the church are afraid of—but they could get out in front of the issue and make up for all bad acts by fully cooperating with authorities. It’s not their role to prevent justice from taking place.

160 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 4:59:58pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

Yup, there’s a strong tradition among conservatives for isolationism so I think most people will make the transition pretty easily. It’ll just take a little time.

Yep - Remember Dole’s “Democratic Wars” jibe against Mondale in the 70s?

And then there was the opposition to Kosovo.

Bush 1 and Bush 2 both acted against the grain.

161 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:00:18pm

re: #146 BryanS

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Catholic church is very much about hierarchy, and dogma is passed down from that authority. The Pope could mandate that the church open their doors to a full investigation and accounting for behavior by the civil authorities, but he does not make this call. Despite his statements to the contrary, lack of action on that front amounts to condoning the stonewalling and covering up.

There are places in the world where Christianity in general as well as the Catholic churches and missions are already under attack by local civil authority. Giving those locals official Church permission to “investigate” priests — and it would certainly spread to teachers, doctors, even lay people as well —- would be just handing the lambs over to the wolves for slaughter.

162 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:00:24pm

When you should be concerned about your parish priest:

1) He has a scrapbook containing the complete collection of Chester the Molester cartoons from Hustler Magazine.

2) He has begun a church outreach program to NAMBLA members.

3) His private quarters are decorated like Michael Jackson’s.

4) He’s a big fan of the Cardinals - Mahoney and Law in particular.

/

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:01:11pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

My parents converted to the Episcopal Church.
Along with the parents of many of the kids I was in grammer school with.

One of my cousins has gone temporily Episcopal. He says he’s hanging out until the Church can deal with him being gay, and cleans up all the cover-up junk. Still thinks of himself as Catholic.

164 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:01:13pm

re: #152 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL! Yes I saw that… But I didn’t see so many puns on my name.

Yes, easy to overlook data, I know how it goes…

165 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:02:32pm

re: #158 Bagua

It is difficult to consider the revelations about Cardinal Mahony in context of the numerous other similar revelations at other dioceses - which have been documented extensively - and not conclude that the Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise.

OK. The entire Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise. And BryanS agrees with this comment.

I’m gone for tonight. Have fun, folks.

166 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:03:03pm

re: #161 nonic

There are places in the world where Christianity in general as well as the Catholic churches and missions are already under attack by local civil authority. Giving those locals official Church permission to “investigate” priests — and it would certainly spread to teachers, doctors, even lay people as well —- would be just handing the lambs over to the wolves for slaughter.

So are you defending the lack of cooperation?

167 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:03:21pm

re: #149 freetoken

BTW, Peter Sinclair’s latest rebuttal to AGW-deniers is on sea rise:


[Video]

Barnes is a creationist through and through. What do you expect?

168 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:03:26pm

re: #158 Bagua

- and not conclude that the Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise.

Way over the line, IMO. Whether consciously or not, you’re flirting with bigotry in this post.

169 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:03:32pm

re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist

At my father’s church, some people started contacting the pastor and offering to pay the light bill, or for the school’s basketball team uniforms, rather than give money to the Archdiocese which would go to ends they couldn’t control.

That is a very smart move legally to assure that the lights stay on and the basketball team can still play, rather than general contributions being subject to seizure in judgments.

170 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:03:39pm

re: #158 Bagua

That’s a bit much, but yes, times have not been good to the Catholic Church recently.

171 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:04:14pm

re: #161 nonic

There are places in the world where Christianity in general as well as the Catholic churches and missions are already under attack by local civil authority. Giving those locals official Church permission to “investigate” priests — and it would certainly spread to teachers, doctors, even lay people as well —- would be just handing the lambs over to the wolves for slaughter.

Beg to differ, the pedophile priests and their employers/enablers are not the “lambs”, they are the wolves. The “lambs” are the innocent children who they abuse.

Let’s be accurate.

172 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:04:20pm

re: #162 Salamantis

Ummm…errr…you know I love ya’ but, pedophillia is not a joking matter, Salamantis.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:04:40pm

re: #64 Jimmah

I’m not a believer never mind a devout one but I can certainly remind you as I get this shit too “Morality means nothing unless it is given to you by a certified magical law bringing entity”.

As a believer, that bothers me too. “So, are you saying that if God had not said no, you’d be running around killing people and ripping off little old ladies?”

There’s even a category of laws in Jewish law that are considered to be ‘common sense morality’. Things that human minds would think to outlaw for the sake of a good society, even if they were not believers, or not believers in our particular deity.

174 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:06:03pm

re: #156 freetoken

Buchanan hit the big time with Nixon, and given RMN’s character we shouldn’t be surprised. I linked to one of the Nixon tapes a couple of weeks back… was ugly.

Oh, yeah, I saw that. I hope no one is wondering why the Republican Party has a reputation for racism.

175 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:06:30pm

re: #172 MandyManners

Ummm…errr…you know I love ya’ but, pedophillia is not a joking matter, Salamantis.

To me, joking about it is like nervously laughing in a horror movie. It eases an almost unbearable tension.

I was attacked by a murderous pedophile when I was young. He killed another young boy in my town, and I barely escaped with my life.

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:07:14pm

re: #175 Salamantis

I remember your story about that. Was chilling.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:07:22pm

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh ick…

I have to say the obvious first which is I am appalled at how the Church has handled these things. This is a sickening tragedy on dozens of levels.

However, one thing that doesn’t get said enough is how sorry I feel for good and decent Catholics who have to feel a sting whenever one of these stories comes up.

So to any Catholic Lizards out there, obviously the world knows that most priests are not evil and that neither are you for being a part of the Church.

During the worst of it, one of my dad’s friends was at Mass when the parish priest stood up and said he had something unfortunate to announce, and that the Archdiocese was cooperating with the police.

She nearly fainted, before realizing that what he was talking about was a former employee who’d ripped off some money from the parish. Whereupon her heart soared. “Oh well,” thought this CPA, “if it’s just embezzling!”

It’s hard. I watch my family go through this, and it just makes them sad and horrified.

178 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:07:30pm

re: #175 Salamantis

I was attacked by a murderous pedophile when I was young. He killed another young boy in my town, and I barely escaped with my life.

Holy crap.

I’m so sorry to read this, Sal.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:08:08pm

re: #78 Salamantis

Never eat spinach when you are recovering from a bone break; substances in it retard the bone knitting process.

Good to know.

180 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:08:19pm

re: #166 BryanS

So are you defending the lack of cooperation?

As you can see in my #161, I was responding to your statement that the Church should authorize local civil authorities to “investigate and hold accountable” Catholic workers in the local jurisdiction.

181 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:09:10pm

For Liberty Examines the Kingmakers

For Liberty, a documentary of the Ron Paul grassroots movement, deserves attention. Ron Paul enthusiasts will recognize familiar names and faces and relive unforgettable moments, and students of elections, campaign managers and political activists of all persuasions should see it. Everyone concerned with the direction of the country and the breakdown of political discourse would find something moving. The seeds of this grassroots movement are still growing.

Watch the trailers.

182 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:09:27pm

re: #165 Cato the Elder

OK. The entire Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise. And BryanS agrees with this comment.

I’m gone for tonight. Have fun, folks.

Cato, using the precedent of the RICO laws, that would in fact be a fair assessment. Such a finding does not require every member and every act to be criminal, for example, the Mafia also spends time eating, socialising and other legal activities, but throw in a few murders, a coverup and evidence of conspiracy and yes, the entire Mafia is found to be a criminal enterprise.

The Catholic Church shows itself to be a criminal enterprise by a similar standard, only with far more victims than the Mafia.

183 [deleted]  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:09:36pm
184 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:10:00pm

re: #175 Salamantis

To me, joking about it is like nervously laughing in a horror movie. It eases an almost unbearable tension.

I was attacked by a murderous pedophile when I was young. He killed another young boy in my town, and I barely escaped with my life.

What happened to the bastard?

185 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:10:04pm

re: #180 nonic

I was responding to your statement that the Church should authorize local civil authorities to “investigate and hold accountable”

It’s not really a matter of the Church “authorizing” civil authorities to do anything. The Catholic Church is not above the law.

186 Randall Gross  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:10:39pm

Stepping aside from all other issues in this series of cases, revelations, and accusations the part I find most disturbing is the leadership of the Church being so willing to ignore state and federal laws as if they were above it.

187 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:10:49pm

re: #171 Bagua

Beg to differ, the pedophile priests and their employers/enablers are not the “lambs”, they are the wolves. The “lambs” are the innocent children who they abuse.

Let’s be accurate.

Of course, victims of abuse are the “lambs.” But my point was that in many local jurisdictions, the civil authorities would be more than happy to become the “wolves” given free rein over Catholic (or other Christian) workers.

188 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:10:53pm

re: #161 nonic

There are places in the world where Christianity in general as well as the Catholic churches and missions are already under attack by local civil authority. Giving those locals official Church permission to “investigate” priests — and it would certainly spread to teachers, doctors, even lay people as well —- would be just handing the lambs over to the wolves for slaughter.

Perhaps. But America is not one of those places, and this is precisely what Mahoney ought to be doing himself.

189 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:11:33pm

re: #180 nonic

As you can see in my #161, I was responding to your statement that the Church should authorize local civil authorities to “investigate and hold accountable” Catholic workers in the local jurisdiction.

I honestly couldn’t see that when you state that exposing the church to investigation by the local civil authority ” would be just handing the lambs over to the wolves for slaughter”.

190 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:11:45pm

re: #183 Boris Badenov

Hoosing Hoopski Man! I admire you. The Boris is too short to play the dribbling ball game. But Natasha, she is different story. Very tall that devushka. Did you know she was star forward for Pottsylvania Women’s Olympic team when she was recruited to become spy? Too bad she is busy working on fiendish plan or she could talk the hoopski ball with you!

So how far can she hit a basket with one of your round black ball-shaped bombs?

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:11:45pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

Interesting building. And it looks very nice.
My taste preference for a Cathedral, though, would be a more traditional church-y looking building. Just me.

A family friend contributed a great deal of money to the fund to build the San Francisco Cathedral, fondly known as “St. Mary Maytag”, or “Our Lady of the Phillips-Head Screwdriver”.

He was an old-fashioned kind of guy. Comment to the archbishop, after the consecration. “Nice homily, John. Building looks like shit, but a nice sermon.”

192 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:11:49pm

O/T… maybe it’s just that I’m cranky from being shut up with swine flu kid, but this is funny…
[Link: viralvideochart.unrulymedia.com…]

193 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:12:00pm

re: #182 Bagua

Such a finding does not require every member and every act to be criminal, for example

Umm, but it DOES require a finding that the organization is question has, essentially, a criminal PURPOSE. And if you’re saying that’s the purpose of the Catholic Church, I say again; this is bigotry. You might as well throw in “Whore of Babylon”.

194 centaur  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:12:12pm

“Beware of the fish people, they are the true enemy.” — Frank Said.

195 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:12:12pm

re: #7 tradewind

O/T… you may want to reconsider which flu shot to get if you haven’t already gotten the regular seasonal one… there is new information from the Canadians…
[Link: www.cbc.ca…]

That’s why they call it a “flu shot” and not a “flu prevention shot”…

196 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:12:44pm

re: #192 tradewind

O/T… maybe it’s just that I’m cranky from being shut up with swine flu kid, but this is funny…
[Link: viralvideochart.unrulymedia.com…]

Crankiness is contagious.

197 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:12:53pm

re: #184 MandyManners

What happened to the bastard?

He was never caught.

I’ll repost the poem I wrote about it.

198 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:13:05pm

re: #191 SanFranciscoZionist

Bleah.

Give me a good Gothic cathedral, any day.

199 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:13:07pm

Pedophile

There I was,
A boy of eleven,
Bike tire flat,
A few allowance dollars burning a hole in my pocket,
Beginning the mile-long hot sun walk to the corner store.
I was short, pale and thin,
Dressed in blue-jean denim shorts,
Sandals and a baby-blue tee,
And completely oblivious
To how alluring I looked to sick fucking maggots like you.
You pulled your big green automobile over next to me
And asked me if I needed a ride.
“Sure, Mister,” I said to the person I couldn’t yet see;
“I’m heading to the E Z Mart at the entrance to the subdivision.
I really appreciate the lift.”
Your meaty hand reached over and opened the door for me,
And, without a glance or a second thought,
I hopped innocently inside and shut it behind me.
Immediately, you hit the gas,
And turned away from the street you should have taken,
And onto a dead end road that led to the woods behind my house.
I began to turn to ask you why, and in doing so,
I took my first look at the inside of your car.
A chill ran through me.
Every single surface had fake green fur glued to it.
It was on the seats, on the dashboard,
Even on the visors, roof and steering wheel.
Then I saw you – and recoiled in horror.
You were grossly bloated, sweating grease,
With a head like a pumpkin,
And a sly twisted Jabba the Hut grin
Crinkling your slitty eyes and thin-lipped mouth.
You gave me a strange look and eerily licked your lips
With a tongue that reminded me of a disgusting worm.
“This isn’t the way to the store, Mister!” I protested.
Your sinister smile only grew frighteningly wider.
“We’re just taking a shortcut, son;
Just a little detour, is all.
It’ll be fun; you’ll see.”
A weird crazy light seemed to begin shining in your eyes.
It seemed to me as if you’d started panting.
And then you could restrain yourself no longer.
One of your fat rancid paws casually left the steering wheel,
And you reached over and grabbed my genitals.
I simply went insane.
I began screaming like a mad terrified banshee
And beating with my fists at your revolting face,
Then clawing at your eyes in a panicked frenzy,
Raging like a frantic animal,
And trying my damnedest
To bite clean through that demented appendage
That dared to touch me there.
You were howling in pain and surprise,
And, while trying to slap me away,
You lost control of the car
And it swerved careening toward the curb.
It slammed into it and came to a jolting halt
Which bounced me around the car’s interior,
And split the bridge of my nose against the windshield.
The sudden pain seemed to restore some degree of self-awareness to me.
As I bounced backwards into the seat,
I took advantage of the one split-second I had
To jerk open the car handle,
Roll out of there like a circus tumbler,
Gain my scrabbling footing,
And run like hell into the brush.
You slammed the car into gear,
Spun through a wild U turn,
And, raving vicious curses at me,
You screamed out of there,
And over a hill and away like a scalded dog.

I didn’t know anything about car models,
And I didn’t get your tag number or your name.
As far as I know, you have never been caught.
But when I told my parents, and they told the cops,
They searched those woods,
And found the naked rotting mutilated corpse of a boy I never knew,
Who had gone missing some weeks before,
From his home a few miles away.
He had been used, disposed of and discarded,
As if he were some worthless thing.
But I fought back, and I beat you, you malevolent murderous bastard!
Because of you, however,
A horrific memory will ever plague my dreams,
I will forever despise with an incandescent passion
Warped psychopaths who abuse children as tools for their own filthy purposes,
And I will live each moment of the rest of my life
Haunted and shamed by the guilty knowledge
That I, unlike that poor molested slaughtered boy,
Am incredibly and senselessly lucky to still be alive.

200 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:13:09pm

re: #175 Salamantis

(((Salamantis)))

201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:13:19pm

re: #183 Boris Badenov

Whatsamatta U!

202 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:13:50pm

Look at how the Iranians are celebrating Yom Kippur:


Iran will conduct war games and fire missiles that can hit Israel while Jews around the world are praying on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The Revolutionary Guards website said that military exercises, including the simultaneous firing of missiles at targets, will begin Sunday and last for several days “to raise the deterrence capability of the Iranian armed forces.” Yom Kippur begns Sunday night.


[deleted]

203 centaur  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:15:03pm

re: #199 Salamantis

Wow.

204 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:15:51pm

re: #199 Salamantis

If you’ll pardon my French:

Holy fucking shit.

I’m glad you’re here with us, Sal.

205 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:15:52pm

re: #199 Salamantis

Extremely compelling—it pulled me along.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:15:54pm

re: #119 BryanS

The Catholic church is officially in favor of pedophilia, it seems. That, and no condoms or birth control.

Sarc tag when you say that.

207 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:16:35pm

Surprised no one picked up Sarah Palin’s “Hong Kong” speech:

[Link: www.facebook.com…]

In fact, it’s a sea change in America, I believe. Recently, there have been protests by ordinary Americans who marched on Washington to demand their government stop spending away their future. Large numbers of ordinary, middle-class Democrats, Republicans, and Independents from all over the country marching on Washington?! You know something’s up!

These are the same people who flocked to the town halls this summer to face their elected officials who were home on hiatus from that distant capital and were now confronted with the people they represent. Big town hall meetings – video clips circulating coverage – people watching, feeling not so alone anymore.

The town halls and the Tea Party movement are both part of a growing grassroots consciousness among ordinary Americans who’ve decided that if they want real change, they must take the lead and not wait to be led. Real change – and, you know, you don’t need a title to do it.

The “Tea Party Movement” is aptly named to remind people of the American Revolution – of colonial patriots who shook off the yoke of a distant government and declared their freedom from indifferent – elitist – rulers who limited their progress and showed them no respect. Today, Main Street Americans see Washington in similar terms.

208 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:16:47pm

re: #197 Salamantis

Sorry to hear that. There is no place too awful for that person to go. Hopefully they are there right now.

209 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:17:28pm

re: #187 nonic

Of course, victims of abuse are the “lambs.” But my point was that in many local jurisdictions, the civil authorities would be more than happy to become the “wolves” given free rein over Catholic (or other Christian) workers.

Yes I agree. It would be better to speak of the priest as the “wolves and the authorities as “hunters.”

A major part of the issue is that the Church has been very successful in hindering law enforcement, not only in this case, but in many, many others. They need to be held accountable, the children need to be protected and the authorities need the ability to do their job without being blocked by the Church.

In the absence of full cooperation, one is justified in suspecting the Church of bad intentions.

210 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:17:30pm

re: #199 Salamantis

{Salamantis}

211 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:18:47pm

That’s why I laugh at the bastards, Mandy; to keep from crying.

212 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:19:50pm

re: #199 Salamantis

I think there are no words, in any language, to fully describe the evil of someone like that.

I hope he met a very, very bad end.

213 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:19:54pm

re: #199 Salamantis

Wow, I’m sorry. That really touched a chord with me, I was also attacked and sexually assaulted by a much older boy when I was 12. They never caught him, and they never will because I’ve never told anyone.

Writing about it does help, though :)

214 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:19:56pm

re: #207 freetoken

The “Tea Party Movement” is aptly named to remind people of the American Revolution – of colonial patriots who shook off the yoke of a distant government and declared their freedom from indifferent – elitist – rulers who limited their progress and showed them no respect. Today, Main Street Americans see Washington in similar terms.


Ugh.
The rest of the speech is Paulian gibberish. The woman just couldn’t be any dumber. I hope they had a nice chuckle at her expense.

215 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:20:22pm

re: #211 Salamantis

(((Sal)))

216 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:20:38pm

re: #183 Boris Badenov

Hoosing Hoopski Man! I admire you. The Boris is too short to play the dribbling ball game. But Natasha, she is different story. Very tall that devushka. Did you know she was star forward for Pottsylvania Women’s Olympic team when she was recruited to become spy? Too bad she is busy working on fiendish plan or she could talk the hoopski ball with you!

You crack me up Boris…I think I told this story a year ago here..But I did play a game of Horse with my kids and the point Guard of the local girls basketball team..She not only beat me..She trashed talked me the whole time..My kids were just falling all over laughing at me…That girl has Skilzs…a beautiful shot… great athletic attitude and great trash talking skilzs..
When a 5’2” girl is going lights out It just makes you want to knock her out in the lane…These Hoosier Girls can frigging play Ball..
:)

217 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:20:50pm

re: #202 Kosh’s Shadow

Look at how the Iranians are celebrating Yom Kippur:


[deleted]

How dare you “judge” their colorful indigenous culture (etc. etc.)

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:21:25pm

re: #198 Occasional Reader

Bleah.

Give me a good Gothic cathedral, any day.

That was pretty much our friend’s opinion.

219 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:21:26pm

re: #211 Salamantis

That’s why I laugh at the bastards, Mandy; to keep from crying.

At least you told someone. Parents, police… Some  of us  kids are afraid to.

220 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:21:58pm

re: #198 Occasional Reader

Bleah.

Give me a good Gothic cathedral, any day.

Nah. Too much eyeshadow and bad poetry.

221 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:22:33pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

That was pretty much our friend’s opinion.

I live pretty near Washington National Cathedral; I see it frequently. Yet every time I see it, I still just gape at it. It’s so frickking beautiful.

222 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:23:33pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Not many news stories on it… but here is one:

Delegates walk out ‘in disgust’ at Palin speech

Questions are prearranged; ‘It was awful,’ one US delegate says

“It was fairly right-wing populist stuff,’ one US delegate said.

[…]

Palin blasted Obama’s proposals on healthcare, reiterating a previous statement made to the press that the plan would include a bureaucratic “death panel” that would decide who gets assistance, he said.

Another from the United States said: “She frightens me because she strikes a chord with a certain segment of the population and I don’t like it.”

CLSA, an arm of French bank Credit Agricole, said it closed Palin’s session to the media after she indicated that she would have to adjust her speech if reporters were present.

223 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:23:46pm

re: #219 JamesTKirk

At least you told someone. Parents, police… Some  of us  kids are afraid to.

Kinda hard not to when you stumble in the door crying with your face covered with blood from a split nose and your knees and elbows bleeding from asphalt burns and they ask what happened.

224 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:23:57pm

re: #191 SanFranciscoZionist

A family friend contributed a great deal of money to the fund to build the San Francisco Cathedral, fondly known as “St. Mary Maytag”, or “Our Lady of the Phillips-Head Screwdriver”.

He was an old-fashioned kind of guy. Comment to the archbishop, after the consecration. “Nice homily, John. Building looks like shit, but a nice sermon.”

That building is awful.
yech.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:24:08pm

re: #221 Occasional Reader

I live pretty near Washington National Cathedral; I see it frequently. Yet every time I see it, I still just gape at it. It’s so frickking beautiful.

It’s impressive. It got a beautiful role in a West Wing episode too, the one where Barlet gives the terrifying soliloquy. Really good.

My dad took me there when I was a teenager, once.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:24:41pm

re: #221 Occasional Reader

I live pretty near Washington National Cathedral; I see it frequently. Yet every time I see it, I still just gape at it. It’s so frickking beautiful.

And, that’s what a cathedral is supposed to do!

227 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:25:17pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s impressive. It got a beautiful role in a West Wing episode too, the one where Barlet gives the terrifying soliloquy. Really good.

My dad took me there when I was a teenager, once.

I was not a big fan of West Wing, but I do remember that ep (one of the few I saw), and I have to say, the scene was very powerful.

228 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:25:40pm

That the ugly-o-sphere sort of ignored Palin’s HK trip itself is an interesting development, IMO. Perhaps Sarah is just a shiny bobble, and when dangled in front of throbbing crowd they get all excited, but when out of sight they forget about her?

229 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:25:42pm

re: #217 Occasional Reader

How dare you “judge” their colorful indigenous culture (etc. etc.)

Well, I hope the modern-day Haman ends up like his (spiritual) ancestor.
Maybe while he watches the missile launches, everything will blow up in his face taking out the assholes who lead Iran.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:25:56pm

re: #224 reine.de.tout

That building is awful.
yech.

The new Oakland Cathedral is even worse, from the outside. The inside is interesting.

231 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:26:11pm

re: #185 Occasional Reader

It’s not really a matter of the Church “authorizing” civil authorities to do anything. The Catholic Church is not above the law.

That’s absolutely correct. As the original article at the top of the thread shows, the vicar for the clery (Loomis) was directing that allegations of child abuse should be reported to the police.

Actually, I think that’s the law pretty much in every state — doctors, nurses, and teachers, and the general public are REQUIRED to report suspicions of child abuse — which is one of the points on which the current ACORN scandal rests.

Loomis’s testimony is that Cardinal Mahoney contradicted that direction. THAT is the “sin” (and crime) here, and the cardinal is the one committing that crime here, not “the Church” as some collective entity.

My point continues to be, as I believe the Pope has stated, that to issue a universal mandate (in force around the world) that turns over all authority regarding suspicious activities by priests or other church or mission workers to (often hostile) local civil authorities to “investigate and hold accountable” alleged perpetrators would be to INVITE and legitimize the persecution of mostly innocent persons. Think China or Sudan or Egypt.

232 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:26:26pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Kinda hard not to when you stumble in the door crying with your face covered with blood from a split nose and your knees and elbows bleeding from asphalt burns and they ask what happened.

I’m still gobsmacked. Glad you got away.

233 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:26:51pm

re: #193 Occasional Reader

Umm, but it DOES require a finding that the organization is question has, essentially, a criminal PURPOSE. And if you’re saying that’s the purpose of the Catholic Church, I say again; this is bigotry. You might as well throw in “Whore of Babylon”.

I disagree, the example I am suggesting has no such requirement, in fact, it requires only a “pattern of racketeering activity” involving a minimum of two criminal acts in a ten year period. The Church has thousands of victims and a clear pattern of racketeering activity in many Diocese.

234 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:26:54pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

And, that’s what a cathedral is supposed to do!

The two most ass-kickingly awesome Gothic cathedrals I can think of: Chartres and Salisbury.

There’s also a really fun one in Quito, Ecuador. Instead of gargoyles, they have animals from the Ecuadoran jungle; stone monkeys, jaguars and parrots springing out of the walls.

235 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:27:10pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

Sarc tag when you say that.

Well, sometimes I think the South Park portrayal of the Catholic church is not too far off the truth:
[Link: www.southparkstudios.com…]
Skip to 10:15 . Otherwise, watch the whole thing.

236 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:27:33pm

re: #222 freetoken

Not many news stories on it… but here is one:

Delegates walk out ‘in disgust’ at Palin speech

Not many news stories because the press wasn’t allowed. This is now SOP for Palin - she’s refusing to appear anywhere the media might be present, giving speeches behind closed doors to tightly controlled crowds.

237 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:28:03pm

re: #222 freetoken


Love the source.. Rawstory is always so… raw. As in red meat for the moonbats.
//

238 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:28:32pm

re: #221 Occasional Reader

I live pretty near Washington National Cathedral; I see it frequently. Yet every time I see it, I still just gape at it. It’s so frickking beautiful.

The Church doesn’t get taxed, so she doesn’t have to hide her money in a tin can. She can flaunt it.

239 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:28:53pm

re: #237 tradewind

They copied supposedly an AFP report. If I had dug out the link direct from AFP would you feel better?

240 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:28:57pm

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

241 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:28:59pm

re: #186 Thanos

Stepping aside from all other issues in this series of cases, revelations, and accusations the part I find most disturbing is the leadership of the Church being so willing to ignore state and federal laws as if they were above it.

It’s not so surprising. That’s what politicians do. That’s what investment bankers do. And so forth. That’s what individual people who are CRIMINALS do.

242 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:02pm

Dinger at 12:00

243 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:04pm

re: #236 SixDegrees

Yet somehow, RawStory was there.
Scooped again, CNN!

244 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:27pm

OK - The Catholic Church has problems regarding Priest Pederasty.First Question comes down to “Damages.” This is the US, where “damages” are almost unlimited. I could say more, and won’t as to the causes of this problem, not my place to do so.
Second Question IS - would the US be better off with a Bankrupt Catholic Church?
I think NOT! What is YOUR reply - Kol Ha Lizardim?

-S-

245 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:48pm

re: #222 freetoken

Questions are prearranged; ‘It was awful,’ one US delegate says

The media actually noticed prearranged questions? I didn’t think they were capable of that.

246 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:50pm

re: #238 JamesTKirk

The Church doesn’t get taxed, so she doesn’t have to hide her money in a tin can. She can flaunt it.

In this case, we’re talking about a different “the” Church. Wash. Nat. Cath. is Anglican.

247 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:55pm

re: #239 freetoken

From AP?
Somewhat, sure.
If it’s news. it’ll be all over the networks and CNN/ MSNBC in no time, I’ll wait.

248 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:29:58pm

re: #240 Dianna

{Dianna} Hope this hug helps you feel better soon.

249 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:30:09pm

re: #242 erraticsphinx

Dinger at 12:00

Not any more. That was a sock puppet for another banned user.

250 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:30:13pm

Did Charles change color-schemes again?

251 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:30:53pm

re: #240 Dianna

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

My wife had it, and quarantined herself. Me and Kirk jr. managed to avoid catching it, and she’s finally over it.

252 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:30:58pm

re: #240 Dianna

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

We were wondering what had become of you.
Stop reading this, and go drink more clear liquids.

253 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:20pm

re: #228 freetoken

That the ugly-o-sphere sort of ignored Palin’s HK trip itself is an interesting development, IMO. Perhaps Sarah is just a shiny bobble, and when dangled in front of throbbing crowd they get all excited, but when out of sight they forget about her?


Nah, they still love her.

254 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:26pm

One can only imagine how our recently departed trolls must be feeling right now…

255 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:31pm

re: #243 tradewind

Scooped again, CNN!

Like that’s a difficult achievement.

256 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:32pm

re: #248 midwestgak

{Dianna} Hope this hug helps you feel better soon.

Thank you. I’m probably going to sign off and listen to music, shortly, but I wondered how everyone was.

257 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:40pm

re: #240 Dianna

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

I really hope you getting feeling better…

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:47pm

re: #235 BryanS

Well, sometimes I think the South Park portrayal of the Catholic church is not too far off the truth:
[Link: www.southparkstudios.com…]
Skip to 10:15 . Otherwise, watch the whole thing.

I’ve seen it. I’m not going to say there aren’t incredible problems within the church in this area. But the Church is more, and more complex than that.

I’m also going to say that I doubt there’s a denomination of any faith in this country that doesn’t have horror stories lurking below its surface.

259 MandyManners  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:31:54pm

re: #240 Dianna

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

The Kid has H1N1 as does Tradewind’s child. It sucks.

(((Dianna)))

260 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:17pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

We were wondering what had become of you.
Stop reading this, and go drink more clear liquids.

Clear liquids?

261 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:22pm

re: #240 Dianna

Glad you’re better and back.
With so many respected lizards now banned, I had checked to be sure you weren’t.

I have basically finished the 3rd version of the story; one proofreading pass and it will be ready to send to you.

262 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:23pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

We were wondering what had become of you.
Stop reading this, and go drink more clear liquids.

I think I’m going to have to. This is my first full day out of bed, I did some housekeeping and I’m shaking like a leaf.

263 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:26pm

re: #244 Dr. Shalit

OK - The Catholic Church has problems regarding Priest Pederasty.First Question comes down to “Damages.” This is the US, where “damages” are almost unlimited. I could say more, and won’t as to the causes of this problem, not my place to do so.
Second Question IS - would the US be better off with a Bankrupt Catholic Church?
I think NOT! What is YOUR reply - Kol Ha Lizardim?

-S-

I think our children just may be better off, yes. As for whether any lawsuit should allow unlimited damages—well there I’m opposed. There needs to be limits on damages awarded per affected victim.

264 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #240 Dianna

I’m just popping in briefly, with an OT:

I haven’t seen a computer since Wednesday. I issue a warning of creeping crud - a flu that has sinus symptoms, a cough, sore throat, killer pounding headache and fever.

Don’t get it. If you think you’ve got it, hit it hard with favored remedies and sleep a lot.

Sorry to interrupt a live thread.

I had it this week too. Starting to feel better now but it’s pretty nasty.

265 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:32:37pm

re: #251 JamesTKirk

My wife had it, and quarantined herself. Me and Kirk jr. managed to avoid catching it, and she’s finally over it.

DAMMIT, Jim, I’m a doctor, not a…

267 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:33:06pm

re: #240 Dianna

/S’okay, my timing was worse/
Your symptoms sound like what my youngest is languishing in the bed with now, and he was diagnosed with the swine flu thing. You’re worse off, though… he can still drive his laptop, operate a tv remote, and his texting skills seem undamaged.
Feel better soon/

268 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:33:17pm

re: #256 Dianna

Thank you. I’m probably going to sign off and listen to music, shortly, but I wondered how everyone was.

Got a cold, and possible incipient sinusitis, myself. It, too, sucks, but not as much as your thing sucks, I think.

269 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:33:47pm

re: #259 MandyManners

The Kid has H1N1 as does Tradewind’s child. It sucks.

(((Dianna)))

Well, look after the kids!

270 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:34:07pm

re: #256 Dianna

It’s probably too late for you to hit it with Relenza or Tamiflu… take care of yourself.
I feel like a ticking time bomb/

271 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:34:22pm

G’nite {53 registered users lizards}

272 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:34:41pm

re: #261 Kosh’s Shadow

Glad you’re better and back.
With so many respected lizards now banned, I had checked to be sure you weren’t.

I have basically finished the 3rd version of the story; one proofreading pass and it will be ready to send to you.

New laptop - I have XP, and Word 2007. Send! Send! I look forward to it!

273 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:34:56pm

From the Times of London article:

One senior fund manager told The Times that the 80-minute lecture, and the lack of an opportunity to fire any questions at Ms Palin, was a disappointment. “You would think that with her team of speechwriters and a supposedly media-free environment Palin could have afforded to be either funny or thought-provoking, but she was neither,” she said.

274 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:35:11pm

re: #254 Jimmah

One can only imagine how our recently departed trolls must be feeling right now…


[Video]

Oops - accidentally posted this on the weong thread. for anyone interested this actually relates to recent events at the bottom of this thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

275 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:35:39pm

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Nah, they still love her.

Killgore Trout -

The former Governor of Alaska - Sarah Heath-Palin is the MOST Mis-Underestimated Politician in the US today. That is all.

-S-

276 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:35:57pm

re: #260 Naso Tang

Clear liquids?

Vodka, gin… that sort of thing.

//

277 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:36:01pm

re: #272 Dianna

New laptop - I have XP, and Word 2007. Send! Send! I look forward to it!

I just have to finish a few things, including proofreading, before Yom Kippur. I hope to get to send it before then, otherwise it will be next week.

278 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:36:46pm

re: #231 nonic


Actually, I think that’s the law pretty much in every state — doctors, nurses, and teachers, and the general public are REQUIRED to report suspicions of child abuse

There’s no requirement that ordinary citizens report abuse that I’m aware of. State employees and those licensed by the state are another matter. But their mandate doesn’t extend to anyone else, including clergy.

There may be a moral imperative to report such incidents, but the Church isn’t breaking any laws by failure to do so.

Impeding an investigation, or lying to investigators, on the other hand, almost certainly opens the door to charges. But see also my earlier post regarding the confessional seal.

279 freetoken  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:37:27pm

In my sweep of usual links, I see Sensuous Curmudgeon has another good one:

Discovery Institute: Idiot’s Guide to Evolution

FRESH from the blog of the neo-theocrats at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (a/k/a the Discoveroids), we present some thrilling excerpts from Introducing The College Student’s Back to School Guide to Intelligent Design.

280 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:37:45pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ve seen it. I’m not going to say there aren’t incredible problems within the church in this area. But the Church is more, and more complex than that.

I’m also going to say that I doubt there’s a denomination of any faith in this country that doesn’t have horror stories lurking below its surface.

Probably true. Absolute authority corrupts absolutely, to re-coin a phrase. Just one of the many reasons I do not belong to any denomination. Anyone who claims to hold the absolute truth, in my opinion, should be viewed with extreme skepticism and probably is a not giving you the truth. All the various faiths demand adherence to their view of the truth without question. The power to dictate what is true and what is right and wrong is a corrupting power. And since the various faiths are human organizations, they can be nothing but rife with corruption.

281 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:38:04pm

re: #276 Occasional Reader

Vodka, gin… that sort of thing.

//

Just wanted to be sure you knew what you were talking about.

282 Dianna  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:38:15pm

re: #277 Kosh’s Shadow

I just have to finish a few things, including proofreading, before Yom Kippur. I hope to get to send it before then, otherwise it will be next week.

As I said, I look forward to it.

Now, I’m going to sign off and retire to the couch and listen to music until dinner.

I’m pleased to see everyone.

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:38:20pm

re: #278 SixDegrees

There’s no requirement that ordinary citizens report abuse that I’m aware of. State employees and those licensed by the state are another matter. But their mandate doesn’t extend to anyone else, including clergy.

There may be a moral imperative to report such incidents, but the Church isn’t breaking any laws by failure to do so.

Impeding an investigation, or lying to investigators, on the other hand, almost certainly opens the door to charges. But see also my earlier post regarding the confessional seal.

In a number of states, clergy are mandated reporters.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:39:03pm

re: #280 BryanS

All the various faiths demand adherence to their view of the truth without question.

Wouldn’t say that was so.

285 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:40:11pm

re: #243 tradewind

Yet somehow, RawStory was there.
Scooped again, CNN!

My impression was that Palin posted a transcript of the speech - or a speech - on her Facebook page, after the fact.

286 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:41:17pm

re: #280 BryanS

All the various faiths demand adherence to their view of the truth without question.

In some faiths, questioning - of many things, including faith and god, is demanded.

287 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:41:33pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Wouldn’t say that was so.

Examples? Isn’t the definition of faith the acceptance of a truth or belief without evidence? What faith allows that while still claiming to be a faith?

288 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:41:55pm

re: #286 Coracle

In some faiths, questioning - of many things, including faith and god, is demanded.

Which ones?

289 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:41:57pm

re: #280 BryanS

All the various faiths demand adherence to their view of the truth without question.


Wow. Not mine. Sometimes to a fault, we think down here. And we’re just a hairs’ breadth removed from the Criminal Enterprise.

290 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:42:36pm

re: #188 SixDegrees

Perhaps. But America is not one of those places, and this is precisely what Mahoney ought to be doing himself.

Exactly right.

The fact that Loomis had directed the clergy to report allegations, surely not on his own initiative but in accordance with “corporate” guidelines, shows that that is exactly what WAS happening. The “news” is that Mahoney countermanded those instructions.

On the other hand…

The monsignor also testified that Mahony ordered him not to inform parishes where Baker had worked of allegations against the priest.

This is an entirely different matter. I would expect that the archdiocese’s attorneys defending this guy Baker would have suggested that. It would be prudent legal practice in order to avoid a feeding frenzy of opportunistic but false accusations.

At the same time, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if other attorneys did in fact go trawling for more accusers in his previous parish(es).

But that doesn’t mean that a defendant has to cooperate with calling out a witch hunt.

291 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:42:39pm

re: #289 tradewind

Wow. Not mine. Sometimes to a fault, we think down here. And we’re just a hairs’ breadth removed from the Criminal Enterprise.

I resemble that remark.

292 researchok  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:42:41pm

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Pedophile priests or ministers or rabbis or anyone else whop commit crimianl acts of any kind need to be dealt with by the state.

While religions can and do offer up moral and ethical instruction they are not an instrument of the criminal legal process- a process applicable to all and overseen by the state.

When the church decides what is a criminal act and what is not a criminal act, and who is a criminal and who is not a criminal, they are not ‘Rendering unto Caesar’.

Churches have never been shy about publicity when they take adversarial positions against laws they consider immoral. Nevertheless, they hide the pedophilia because they know full well how ugly that crime really is.

293 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:42:50pm

Re#289, please add sarc if you didn’t already…

294 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:43:10pm

re: #289 tradewind

Wow. Not mine. Sometimes to a fault, we think down here. And we’re just a hairs’ breadth removed from the Criminal Enterprise.

Isn’t the “Criminal Enterprise” the name of the starship in the “Mirror, Mirror” episode of ST:TOS?

/

295 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:43:19pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

In a number of states, clergy are mandated reporters.

I didn’t think that clergy could be compelled to reveal anything, up to and including murder, that was told to them in the confessional.

296 Egregious Philbin  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:43:21pm

Born and raised, Irish/German Catholic, K-12 Catholic schooling, all that rot…

I haven’t give a dime to the church in decades, only darken their doors for weddings and funerals (and the church and elementary school are on the other side of my fence).

I will not be a part of such a lying organization. I gave up on organized religion years ago, no thanks, I can think for myself.

297 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:43:28pm

re: #291 JamesTKirk
Sounds like a fellow whiskeypalian.

298 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:43:36pm

re: #288 midwestgak

Take a look at the examples of Abaraham and Moses. They questioned god quite a bit. One could argue that any faith with them as a foundation has that kind of questioning at its root. I can personally only speak for Judaism, but from what I understand Jesus also had quite the crisis of questioning as well.

299 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:44:05pm

re: #198 Occasional Reader

A good gothic cathedral (Amiens, France).

And out with all these crimes and cover ups, and prosecute. Out with all of it. Out with it. Stop it.

Signed, Ojoe, raised Catholic.

300 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:44:11pm

re: #295 JamesTKirk

I didn’t think that clergy could be compelled to reveal anything, up to and including murder, that was told to them in the confessional.

Depends on the state.

301 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:44:34pm

re: #287 BryanS

Examples? Isn’t the definition of faith the acceptance of a truth or belief without evidence? What faith allows that while still claiming to be a faith?

Judaism springs immediately to mind. The entire thing has been running on community consensus—frequently challenged—since the destruction of the Temple.

302 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:44:44pm

re: #294 Occasional Reader

:)
Not a real trekkie, although I do love some SciFi.

303 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:45:18pm

re: #69 BryanS

And this magical entity apparently thinks raping kids is just peachy. At least the behavior of the church sends that message.

Actually, I think the message sent by the behavior of the Church officials is more like: “Just because we get paid to nag you people with all that God sees each and every one of your sins malarkey doesn’t mean we personally believe in it.”

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:45:47pm

re: #295 JamesTKirk

I didn’t think that clergy could be compelled to reveal anything, up to and including murder, that was told to them in the confessional.

The confessional is exempted, but otherwise, you’re required to report, is my understanding.

305 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:46:03pm

re: #291 JamesTKirk

I resemble that remark.

Ahh, you’re just sore, because the chicks are all hotter in the “Mirror, Mirror” universe, and you know it.

306 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:46:47pm

re: #305 Occasional Reader

Ahh, you’re just sore, because the chicks are all hotter in the “Mirror, Mirror” universe, and you know it.

In the mirror universe, the green chicks are all nuns.

307 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:47:27pm

re: #303 Throbert McGee

Actually, I think the message sent by the behavior of the Church officials is more like: “Just because we get paid to nag you people with all that God sees each and every one of your sins malarkey doesn’t mean we personally believe in it.”

I was raised Catholic, but, as you know, am atheist, so have no god in this fight.

That said, I have known many Catholic clergy during my lifetime. In general, they have been exemplary human beings.

308 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:47:38pm

re: #298 Coracle

Take a look at the examples of Abaraham and Moses. They questioned god quite a bit. One could argue that any faith with them as a foundation has that kind of questioning at its root. I can personally only speak for Judaism, but from what I understand Jesus also had quite the crisis of questioning as well.

The stories within the Bible do contain character stories where key biblical figures doubt their beliefs. However those stories are told for the benefit of showing the doubter how wrong, but nonetheless understandable, it is to doubt faith.

Tell me, can a Jew—in the religious, not cultural sense—call themselves a Jew and also claim there is no god for the chosen people? Can a Christian call themselves that without believing Christ was the son of god and died for everyone’s sins?

Not likely.

309 reine.de.tout  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:47:53pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my cousins has gone temporily Episcopal. He says he’s hanging out until the Church can deal with him being gay, and cleans up all the cover-up junk. Still thinks of himself as Catholic.

So did my mom, really.
Said the rosary daily until the day she died.

310 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:48:07pm

I have an excellent new addition to the Overlord Correlator Tool for detecting sock puppets, by the way.

Nothing to do with this topic, but I’ve just deployed it and already discovered three sock puppet accounts, two of which were creeps who hang out at the stalker blog.

Now back to our regularly scheduled religious argument.

311 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:48:20pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

In a number of states, clergy are mandated reporters.

I don’t see how this could possibly work. In the Catholic church, for example, statements made during confession are strictly sealed - they cannot be shared with anyone, period. In most other religions, the ability to freely confess sins without fear of legal repercussions is of paramount importance; undermining it would be seen as an unconstitutional intrusion of the state into church business.

Clergy are certainly not exempt from investigation or criminal charges. But any statute like the one being described here would run afoul of the Constitution in about a hot minute.

What states have such statutes? I’d be very interested in hearing exactly what is demanded.

312 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:48:58pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

The confessional Code of Omerta is exempted, but otherwise, you’re required to report, is my understanding.

Fixed, in this application it is no different than the Mafia version.

313 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:49:17pm

re: #301 SanFranciscoZionist

Judaism springs immediately to mind. The entire thing has been running on community consensus—frequently challenged—since the destruction of the Temple.

Changing, perhaps, but there are core tenets of the faith that make someone a Jew and not Christian/Muslim/Hindu/etc, are there not?

314 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:49:26pm

re: #310 Charles

I have an excellent new addition to the Overlord Correlator Tool for detecting sock puppets, by the way.

Nothing to do with this topic, but I’ve just deployed it and already discovered three sock puppet accounts, two of which were creeps who hang out at the stalker blog.

Now back to our regularly scheduled religious argument.

Does that work with IPs? I’d hate to be considered a sock puppeteer if any of my coworkers discovered this site and tried to join up.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:49:41pm

re: #308 BryanS


Tell me, can a Jew—in the religious, not cultural sense—call themselves a Jew and also claim there is no god for the chosen people?

Not likely.

Define religious. I know people who observe the laws of Judaism, and have no belief in God, or are not sure what they believe.

316 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:49:59pm

re: #310 Charles

Wow.

317 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:50:09pm

re: #314 JamesTKirk

Does that work with IPs? I’d hate to be considered a sock puppeteer if any of my coworkers discovered this site and tried to join up.

IP addresses are so yesterday.

318 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:50:53pm

re: #209 Bagua

The best protection for your children is to teach them that NO ONE, no matter what kind of uniform they’re wearing (clergy, teacher, doctor, police, scouts, whatever, a relative) is allowed to touch them or make them touch anyone else or to look at them or make them look or talk about anything that makes them feel scared or icky and that they should tell their parent (or another important grown-up they trust) immediately if that happens.

You cannot be with kids all the time — they have to know they have a right to object and report and protect themselves.

319 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:51:04pm

re: #272 Dianna

New laptop - I have XP, and Word 2007. Send! Send! I look forward to it!

Dianna -

Why oh why Word 2007? - Open Office is FREE! - Has all of the applications of Office Pro! - supports the “Open Document” Format, etc - By the way, Office WILL convert to .od_ format.
If you have to run M/S - Get Works 9 or 9SE - $40.00 is WAY less than $1-200+. We have forced our Attorney and Accountant to get OpenOffice to keep our business. apart from LETHARGY, there was NO Reason for them NOT to. I went down as “IT” guy and did the “hard work” of downloading the programs. Loke WOW! Oh, and by the way, this “missive” is coming to all ‘y’all in LINUX.

-S-

320 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:51:07pm

re: #292 researchok

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Pedophile priests or ministers or rabbis or anyone else whop commit crimianl acts of any kind need to be dealt with by the state.

While religions can and do offer up moral and ethical instruction they are not an instrument of the criminal legal process- a process applicable to all and overseen by the state.

When the church decides what is a criminal act and what is not a criminal act, and who is a criminal and who is not a criminal, they are not ‘Rendering unto Caesar’.

Churches have never been shy about publicity when they take adversarial positions against laws they consider immoral. Nevertheless, they hide the pedophilia because they know full well how ugly that crime really is.

Exactly right. See my own posts earlier in this thread.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:51:23pm

re: #311 SixDegrees

I don’t see how this could possibly work. In the Catholic church, for example, statements made during confession are strictly sealed - they cannot be shared with anyone, period. In most other religions, the ability to freely confess sins without fear of legal repercussions is of paramount importance; undermining it would be seen as an unconstitutional intrusion of the state into church business.

Clergy are certainly not exempt from investigation or criminal charges. But any statute like the one being described here would run afoul of the Constitution in about a hot minute.

What states have such statutes? I’d be very interested in hearing exactly what is demanded.

This is Wisconsin’s info about it.

322 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:52:02pm

re: #296 Egregious Philbin

Born and raised, Irish/German Catholic, K-12 Catholic schooling, all that rot…

I haven’t give a dime to the church in decades, only darken their doors for weddings and funerals (and the church and elementary school are on the other side of my fence).

I will not be a part of such a lying organization. I gave up on organized religion years ago, no thanks, I can think for myself.

No person standing before God Almighty will ever be judge upon his Religious doctrine or faith.. It is what is in your heart…Your Love of humanity..Your forgiveness..Your Soul..Your spirit..
Words are cheap.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:01pm

re: #313 BryanS

Changing, perhaps, but there are core tenets of the faith that make someone a Jew and not Christian/Muslim/Hindu/etc, are there not?

There are things Jews do not believe, but your membership in the community is not really based on belief.

324 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:02pm

I have to kind of laugh every time I hear the phrase ’ the stalker blog’. Can you imagine how bad that must make them feel?
“What do you do”?
” Oh, I run a stalker blog for malcontents who don’t have the good manners to just leave already when they don’t like the company.”
Here’s what I don’t get: why the ’ delete my account ’ flounces? Why not just never come back? It’s not as if Charles has compulsory attendance unless excused. Are they trying to get someone to beg them to stay?

325 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #314 JamesTKirk

Does that work with IPs? I’d hate to be considered a sock puppeteer if any of my coworkers discovered this site and tried to join up.

At a minimum, he should be using cookies. That, plus IP and a couple other tricks can help ferret out the sock puppets.

326 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:33pm

re: #319 Dr. Shalit

Dianna -

Why oh why Word 2007? - Open Office is FREE! - Has all of the applications of Office Pro! - supports the “Open Document” Format, etc - By the way, Office WILL convert to .od_ format.
If you have to run M/S - Get Works 9 or 9SE - $40.00 is WAY less than $1-200+. We have forced our Attorney and Accountant to get OpenOffice to keep our business. apart from LETHARGY, there was NO Reason for them NOT to. I went down as “IT” guy and did the “hard work” of downloading the programs. Loke WOW! Oh, and by the way, this “missive” is coming to all ‘y’all in LINUX.

-S-

I use Office because I teach math part-time, and OO doesn’t handle Equation Editor or MathType objects, or it didn’t work for me. But then, I get Office at the faculty price.

But I use OpenOffice or NeoOffice on other machines. Works very well, even if takes a long time to start the first time.

327 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:46pm

re: #319 Dr. Shalit

Dianna - Why oh why Word 2007? - Open Office is FREE!

She might have gotten Office free, on the machine or through some other source.

328 Occasional Reader  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:53:50pm

re: #322 HoosierHoops

Hoops, you’re a class act, 24/7/365.

329 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:54:11pm

re: #314 JamesTKirk

I think I have to self report because years ago I had to re-register when I was out of town and couldn’t log in. Don’t remember the sock name, though!

330 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:54:38pm

re: #308 BryanS

The stories within the Bible do contain character stories where key biblical figures doubt their beliefs. However those stories are told for the benefit of showing the doubter how wrong, but nonetheless understandable, it is to doubt faith.

That is exactly wrong. Those stories tell us that the greatest examples and representatives of the faith wrestled dearly with it and with god.

Tell me, can a Jew—in the religious, not cultural sense—call themselves a Jew and also claim there is no god for the chosen people?

This one can.

331 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:55:03pm

re: #324 tradewind

Are they trying to get someone to beg them to stay?

No, they’re trying to let Daddy know how much they hate him.

332 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:55:05pm

re: #318 nonic

The best protection for your children is to teach them that NO ONE, no matter what kind of uniform they’re wearing (clergy, teacher, doctor, police, scouts, whatever, a relative) is allowed to touch them or make them touch anyone else or to look at them or make them look or talk about anything that makes them feel scared or icky and that they should tell their parent (or another important grown-up they trust) immediately if that happens.

You cannot be with kids all the time — they have to know they have a right to object and report and protect themselves.

I disagree, while educating the children is a good idea, it is not in itself a panacea. The abusers are far more sophisticated than the children and often have a great deal of control and opportunity. It is far more effective to prosecute the offenders and deprive them of the opportunities for abuse.

If the Catholic Church was sufficiently motivated to protect its “flock of lambs” it would have prevented the majority of the abuse.

333 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:55:52pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

There are things Jews do not believe, but your membership in the community is not really based on belief.

Indeed. G-d cares not for what you think. He does care a great deal for what you do (or don’t do as the case may be).

334 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:56:03pm

re: #317 Charles

IP addresses are so yesterday.

You are doing MAC discoveries from the incoming core switch?
Cool tool..you can’t hide from MAC addresses…

335 albusteve  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:56:29pm

re: #322 HoosierHoops

No person standing before God Almighty will ever be judge upon his Religious doctrine or faith.. It is what is in your heart…Your Love of humanity..Your forgiveness..Your Soul..Your spirit..
Words are cheap.

well that’s where I put my chips down…I’m not such a Lordly type but I am a do gooder when I can

336 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:56:47pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

Define religious. I know people who observe the laws of Judaism, and have no belief in God, or are not sure what they believe.

I’m using the word religious to mean everything that is not cultural in Jewish self definition. Not being Jewish, I probably couldn’t define it as precisely as even you could, but I would say everything within the Torah and other writings which is held at face value to be true, but cannot be proven such. Basically, any article of faith. The idea that god looked out for his people, the Jews, has to be taken on faith. Specific rules or laws that Jews live by may be cultural except to the extent that their justification is an appeal to religious authority.

337 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:13pm

re: #325 BryanS

At a minimum, he should be using cookies. That, plus IP and a couple other tricks can help ferret out the sock puppets.

I don’t expect him to give details, since knowing the methods is the first step to circumventing them; but that doesn’t mean I’m not professionally curious… Not to mention my previously stated concern about a coworker coming here and being misidentified as me.

(I don’t have to have worry about my wife… Even if she were inclined to read/post here, which she isn’t, she’d probably just ask to use my account, and sign any comments “Kirk’s wife”.)

338 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:15pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

You are doing MAC discoveries from the incoming core switch?
Cool tool..you can’t hide from MAC addresses…

Sshhh!

339 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:31pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

This is Wisconsin’s info about it.

As I suspected, there is an explicit exemption for confessional utterances, and broad leeway given in interpreting just what this exemption entails.

340 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:32pm

re: #331 Charles

You need that picture of the crying baby with the waaahah wav file to announce every flounce. I saw it on here years ago, haven’t been able to find it since.

341 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:36pm

re: #331 Charles

No, they’re trying to let Daddy know how much they hate him.

In case having a stalker site wasn’t enough of a clue?

342 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:44pm

re: #319 Dr. Shalit

Being a linux head myself, and upding for you.

343 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:57:54pm

re: #307 Occasional Reader

I was raised Catholic, but, as you know, am atheist, so have no god in this fight.

That said, I have known many Catholic clergy during my lifetime. In general, they have been exemplary human beings.

Oh, I don’t dispute that. My point was that those clergy members who are complicit in evil come across as being men who DON’T actually believe in the God that they preach about, rather than affirming that the God they DO believe in approves of child molestation. (As BryanS suggested.)

344 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:58:16pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

You are doing MAC discoveries from the incoming core switch?
Cool tool..you can’t hide from MAC addresses…

Yes, the Apple MAC is evil. I’m glad we agree.

345 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:58:50pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

This is Wisconsin’s info about it.

Wow. I’m proud of our state for doing this, but I too wonder if and when it will be challenged.

346 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:59:06pm

re: #340 tradewind

You need that picture of the crying baby with the waaahah wav file to announce every flounce. I saw it on here years ago, haven’t been able to find it since.

A few years ago I might have whipped something up, back when I was doing flags…

347 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:59:08pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

You are doing MAC discoveries from the incoming core switch?
Cool tool..you can’t hide from MAC addresses…

He has secret alien lizard technology. You just think that fly on the wall is a fly.

348 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:59:26pm

re: #278 SixDegrees

Of course, it would depend state by state. But I believe it’s the law in my state, which is NJ.

349 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 5:59:51pm

Wisconsin WTF: [Link: languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu…]

350 JamesTKirk  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:00:01pm

Gotta go.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:00:04pm

re: #330 Coracle

This one can.

There is an particularly charged question in Judaism about the Akedat Yitzchak, the binding of Isaac. Abraham is being tested when God asks him to sacrifice his son. Does he pass the test when he attempts to do so, or fail it? The text is silent.

352 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:00:41pm

re: #350 JamesTKirk

Gotta go.

Shouldn’t that be “Scotty, beam me up:?

353 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:01:01pm

re: #330 Coracle

This one can.

If you blur belonging to a cultural identity with religion, then I suppose you do belong.

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:01:41pm

re: #336 BryanS

I’m using the word religious to mean everything that is not cultural in Jewish self definition. Not being Jewish, I probably couldn’t define it as precisely as even you could, but I would say everything within the Torah and other writings which is held at face value to be true, but cannot be proven such. Basically, any article of faith. The idea that god looked out for his people, the Jews, has to be taken on faith. Specific rules or laws that Jews live by may be cultural except to the extent that their justification is an appeal to religious authority.

I honestly don’t know if you can make that kind of distinction in Judaism.

355 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:01:51pm

I don’t like talking about my experience. I do not sleep easy after something prompts me to revisit those vile foul memories.

But I do want to say more thing about my decision to repost that poem on a public thread. Then I would prefer to drop the matter entirely.

Before, I expressed concern that the stalkers would attempt to use my ordeal against me, to emotionally bludgeon me with it. But since then, I have realized that to do so would not reflect upon me, but upon them, and what it would say about them would be far from complimentary.

It would say about them that they were not much better than the SOB who attacked me in the first place.

That is all.

356 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:01:57pm

re: #298 Coracle

Take a look at the examples of Abaraham and Moses. They questioned god quite a bit. One could argue that any faith with them as a foundation has that kind of questioning at its root. I can personally only speak for Judaism, but from what I understand Jesus also had quite the crisis of questioning as well.

I humbly disagree. None of them said they didn’t believe God.

They all reasoned with God. Abraham regarding Lot (i.e If there be just 10 righteous, would you spare the city? For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it). No faith questioned here.

Moses regarding leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. (What if they don’t believe me? Oh Lord, please send someone else.) We know the end of that story. No faith in God questioned, just his own inabilities and fears are exposed.

Jesus asked God to let the cup pass from him (If not, thy will be done.) No question of faith here either.

357 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:03:00pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

You are doing MAC discoveries from the incoming core switch?
Cool tool..you can’t hide from MAC addresses…

Once a packet of data hits a router—buh bye mac address. The web server is a great tool for gathering all kinds of info about the user connecting.

358 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:03:37pm

re: #351 SanFranciscoZionist

There is an particularly charged question in Judaism about the Akedat Yitzchak, the binding of Isaac. Abraham is being tested when God asks him to sacrifice his son. Does he pass the test when he attempts to do so, or fail it? The text is silent.

That is a truly pivotal moment, and one I’ve had a great deal of thought and discussion over. It’s a hugely important discussion to have, no matter which side you come down on - and there is legitimacy in both, I believe.

359 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:03:52pm

re: #348 nonic

Of course, it would depend state by state. But I believe it’s the law in my state, which is NJ.

As noted above, it appears that such laws have broad exemptions for confessional statements, with the definition of such statements being left up to the church itself. This is to be expected; without such exemptions, any statute like this would run afoul of the Constitution.

It also renders them largely ineffective.

One would hope that the Church itself would do what it was able to without being commanded by the state, as I noted in my posts early on.

360 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:04:28pm

re: #353 BryanS

If you blur belonging to a cultural identity with religion, then I suppose you do belong.

You cannot truly separate the two in Judaism. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

361 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:05:56pm

re: #324 tradewind

Here’s what I don’t get: why the ’ delete my account ’ flounces? Why not just never come back?

As far as I can fathom, it’s their way of leaving with the “upper hand”

Charles has made ot clear that if he sees any of “us” posting there he’ll delete our account. Knowing that you’re going to post there (therefore knowing your account here will be deleted) they figure they’ll go out on their “terms”, giving Charles a piece of their minds. Then they can go to the stalker blog with a hero’s welcome

“See ,,, I told Charles off,,, proves that he kicks anyone off that disagrees with him,,,”


If they just left quietly, they would have no good story to tell over there!

362 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:06:36pm

re: #357 BryanS

Once a packet of data hits a router—buh bye mac address. The web server is a great tool for gathering all kinds of info about the user connecting.

I can call out a MAC address on any Internet Device on the Network..
It’s a low level call with Cisco ISO language..Tools will discover you..
Ask the FBI…
*wink*

363 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:07:13pm

re: #343 Throbert McGee

Oh, I don’t dispute that. My point was that those clergy members who are complicit in evil come across as being men who DON’T actually believe in the God that they preach about, rather than affirming that the God they DO believe in approves of child molestation. (As BryanS suggested.)

I am in ORs position here (well, I’m deist, not atheist), but you have to understand how regimented the RCC is. The vertical integration is such that priests within a single parish may not have info shared with the diocese.

364 albusteve  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:08:10pm

re: #361 sattv4u2

Here’s what I don’t get: why the ’ delete my account ’ flounces? Why not just never come back?

As far as I can fathom, it’s their way of leaving with the “upper hand”

Charles has made ot clear that if he sees any of “us” posting there he’ll delete our account. Knowing that you’re going to post there (therefore knowing your account here will be deleted) they figure they’ll go out on their “terms”, giving Charles a piece of their minds. Then they can go to the stalker blog with a hero’s welcome

“See ,,, I told Charles off,,, proves that he kicks anyone off that disagrees with him,,,”

If they just left quietly, they would have no good story to tell over there!

if they left quietly, they would probably not be blocked…the whole idea is to cop that merit badge

365 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:08:29pm

re: #356 midwestgak

I humbly disagree. None of them said they didn’t believe God.

They all reasoned with God. Abraham regarding Lot (i.e If there be just 10 righteous, would you spare the city? For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it). No faith questioned here.

Moses regarding leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. (What if they don’t believe me? Oh Lord, please send someone else.) We know the end of that story. No faith in God questioned, just his own inabilities and fears are exposed.

Jesus asked God to let the cup pass from him (If not, thy will be done.) No question of faith here either.

Abraham lived in a world of many gods. So did Moses for that matter. I wonder whether atheism even truly existed in that age. While it is true that for them the question was more “how” than “if”, the lessons we can learn from them now in an age of “if” are still there. I had a discussion almost exactly like this today at synagogue.

366 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:09:09pm

re: #364 albusteve

if they left quietly, they would probably not be blocked…the whole idea is to cop that merit badge

No , again Charles has stated several times if he sees you posting there your account here will be terminated, flounce off post or not

367 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:09:17pm

re: #326 Kosh’s Shadow

I use Office because I teach math part-time, and OO doesn’t handle Equation Editor or MathType objects, or it didn’t work for me. But then, I get Office at the faculty price.

But I use OpenOffice or NeoOffice on other machines. Works very well, even if takes a long time to start the first time.

Kosh’s Shadow -

You might be right on this one, barely use the “Math” screen. Word Processing, Spreadsheet and Data Base work just fine. In the Residential Real Estate Business, RENT is an easy thing to ascertain without even Algebra, let alone Calculus.

-S-

368 midwestgak  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:09:19pm

Gotta go. Happy posting

369 albusteve  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:10:15pm

re: #366 sattv4u2

No , again Charles has stated several times if he sees you posting there your account here will be terminated, flounce off post or not

posting elsewhere is a different matter…the ‘flounce’ is a matter of pride

370 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:11:24pm

re: #369 albusteve

posting elsewhere is a different matter…the ‘flounce’ is a matter of pride

I’m not disagreeing. In fact I stated that the “fl;ounce” is going out on “their terms”

371 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:11:35pm

re: #311 SixDegrees

I don’t see how this could possibly work. In the Catholic church, for example, statements made during confession are strictly sealed - they cannot be shared with anyone, period. In most other religions, the ability to freely confess sins without fear of legal repercussions is of paramount importance; undermining it would be seen as an unconstitutional intrusion of the state into church business.

Clergy are certainly not exempt from investigation or criminal charges. But any statute like the one being described here would run afoul of the Constitution in about a hot minute.

What states have such statutes? I’d be very interested in hearing exactly what is demanded.

Not everything told to a clergyman is in protected confession.

Anyway. A molester confesses? Seems unlikely. A victim mentions it in confession? So then the priest can suggest the victim report to the authorities.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:11:49pm

re: #356 midwestgak

I humbly disagree. None of them said they didn’t believe God.

They all reasoned with God. Abraham regarding Lot (i.e If there be just 10 righteous, would you spare the city? For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it). No faith questioned here.

Moses regarding leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. (What if they don’t believe me? Oh Lord, please send someone else.) We know the end of that story. No faith in God questioned, just his own inabilities and fears are exposed.

Jesus asked God to let the cup pass from him (If not, thy will be done.) No question of faith here either.

There’s a definite suggestion that Elisha ben Abouya became some type of atheist. Granted, he is not exactly held as a role model after that, but his words remain in the Gemara, and the explanation of his experience is left there as well.

373 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:12:18pm

re: #369 albusteve

posting elsewhere is a different matter…the ‘flounce’ is a matter of pride

I think it’s more a matter of deep-seated psychological problems.

Their dramatic “goodbye cruel world” message will be deleted within minutes, and they know it.

374 KernelPanic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

I can call out a MAC address on any Internet Device on the Network..
It’s a low level call with Cisco ISO language..Tools will discover you..
Ask the FBI…
*wink*

That makes no kind of sense whatsoever. Also, it’s IOS, not ISO. {apologies if you were joking, it’s late in my timezone … }

375 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:13:07pm

re: #361 sattv4u2

Here’s what I don’t get: why the ’ delete my account ’ flounces? Why not just never come back?

As far as I can fathom, it’s their way of leaving with the “upper hand”

Charles has made ot clear that if he sees any of “us” posting there he’ll delete our account. Knowing that you’re going to post there (therefore knowing your account here will be deleted) they figure they’ll go out on their “terms”, giving Charles a piece of their minds. Then they can go to the stalker blog with a hero’s welcome

“See ,,, I told Charles off,,, proves that he kicks anyone off that disagrees with him,,,”


If they just left quietly, they would have no good story to tell over there!

This is perfectly ridiculous. You either like LGF or you don’t. You stay or you don’t. This business of having a shadow blog…

It’s just weird.

376 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:13:43pm

re: #360 Coracle

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Both of you make the same point—that Jewish culture and religion are inseparable. However there are Jews who are non-believers in the faith, but still call themselves Jews. There is a difference between culture and faith—even though they sometimes intersect as they particularly do with Jews. But there is a difference. Celebrating Christmas has become an American cultural event that many non-Christians celebrate. It wasn’t always so, but it is now. Christianity has greatly influence American culture, but that doesn’t make me or any other American a Christian. It’s not quite the same level of integration of culture and faith that the Jewish people have developed, but the idea is the same.

377 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:14:07pm

re: #365 Coracle

Abraham lived in a world of many gods. So did Moses for that matter. I wonder whether atheism even truly existed in that age. While it is true that for them the question was more “how” than “if”, the lessons we can learn from them now in an age of “if” are still there. I had a discussion almost exactly like this today at synagogue.

You know, that’s a really good question. I think the answer is “no”. When you are just one technological leap above the hunter-gatherer stage, everything is magic. Magic must be explained, and gods are the only reasonable explanation.

This begs the question of the modern religious whacks of all faiths, but I won’t go there.

Ummm…unless I just did.

378 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:14:38pm

re: #373 Charles

Yes, there is definitely far more going on than a simple goodbye.

379 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:14:52pm

re: #362 HoosierHoops

I can call out a MAC address on any Internet Device on the Network..
It’s a low level call with Cisco ISO language..Tools will discover you..
Ask the FBI…
*wink*

Yes, if you are connected via layer 2 to me. Bu behind a router—nope. That’s the definition of routing—translates mac address to ip address.

380 albusteve  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:14:59pm

re: #373 Charles

I think it’s more a matter of deep-seated psychological problems.

Their dramatic “goodbye cruel world” message will be deleted within minutes, and they know it.

could be…there seems to be a need to take the hit before they move on…maybe there is a new science to all this flounce-ology

381 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:15:53pm

re: #375 SanFranciscoZionist

This is perfectly ridiculous. You either like LGF or you don’t. You stay or you don’t. This business of having a shadow blog…

It’s just weird.

Sorta like the Star Trek episode where Spock had the Go-T, Sulu had the scar on his face and was a lech(sp), everyone was out for themselves in an “alternate dimension”

Meanwhile back on the “real” enterprise Kirk was a maniacle power seeker

382 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:16:31pm

re: #376 BryanS

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Both of you make the same point—that Jewish culture and religion are inseparable. However there are Jews who are non-believers in the faith, but still call themselves Jews. There is a difference between culture and faith—even though they sometimes intersect as they particularly do with Jews. But there is a difference. Celebrating Christmas has become an American cultural event that many non-Christians celebrate. It wasn’t always so, but it is now. Christianity has greatly influence American culture, but that doesn’t make me or any other American a Christian. It’s not quite the same level of integration of culture and faith that the Jewish people have developed, but the idea is the same.

It’s just that separating Judaism into religious and cultural components is sort of like separating the Legos into red and blue piles when most of the structure is shades of purple.

383 HoosierHoops  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:16:51pm

re: #374 KernelPanic

That makes no kind of sense whatsoever. Also, it’s IOS, not ISO. {apologies if you were joking, it’s late in my timezone … }

Sorry typo..It’s a sh call on my switches…
What makes no sense? You can discover any MAC on a switch..
Slides you a beer..It’s late here also

384 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:16:59pm

Since it’s sunday where I am : Baptazia!

385 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:17:09pm

re: #366 sattv4u2

No , again Charles has stated several times if he sees you posting there your account here will be terminated, flounce off post or not

sattv4u2 -

I post elswhere, and read lots of stuff, AND still recognize the difference between a TABLE and a TOILET wherever I am. ‘Nuff said.

-S-

386 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:17:23pm

re: #376 BryanS

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Both of you make the same point—that Jewish culture and religion are inseparable. However there are Jews who are non-believers in the faith, but still call themselves Jews. There is a difference between culture and faith—even though they sometimes intersect as they particularly do with Jews.

I agree there is a difference, but it is murky. I have no personal faith, but that makes me no less of a Jew religiously than it does culturally.

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:17:53pm

re: #377 austin_blue

You know, that’s a really good question. I think the answer is “no”. When you are just one technological leap above the hunter-gatherer stage, everything is magic. Magic must be explained, and gods are the only reasonable explanation.

This begs the question of the modern religious whacks of all faiths, but I won’t go there.

Ummm…unless I just did.

On an orthodox blog I read, we once had a very interesting discussion of the distinction between science, pseudo-science and magic in the Torah. Once again, purple pieces.

388 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:18:09pm

re: #385 Dr. Shalit

sattv4u2 -

I post elswhere, and read lots of stuff, AND still recognize the difference between a TABLE and a TOILET wherever I am. ‘Nuff said.

-S-


the “THERE” i referenced was specifically the stalker blog ,,, not just posting any”WHERE”

389 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:18:14pm

re: #380 albusteve

could be…there seems to be a need to take the hit before they move on…maybe there is a new science to all this flounce-ology

Speaking of which, the Flouncometer® is flashing, apparently there is a new Evolution thread.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:18:57pm

re: #381 sattv4u2

Sorta like the Star Trek episode where Spock had the Go-T, Sulu had the scar on his face and was a lech(sp), everyone was out for themselves in an “alternate dimension”

Meanwhile back on the “real” enterprise Kirk was a maniacle power seeker

Yes. Sort of like that. And people leave, and become THEM. I’ve never been on a blog before that had this kind of relationship with a nother blog.

391 albusteve  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:19:47pm

re: #389 Bagua

Speaking of which, the Flouncometer® is flashing, apparently there is a new Evolution thread.

woohoo!…another subject I know little about…they say grampa was an oyster

392 sattv4u2  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:20:44pm

re: #390 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. Sort of like that. And people leave, and become THEM. I’ve never been on a blog before that had this kind of relationship with a nother blog.

I say we take your lead and instead of referring to it as the stalker blog, or individuals names, we just say “THEM”

393 BryanS  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:20:56pm

re: #383 HoosierHoops

Sorry typo..It’s a sh call on my switches…
What makes no sense? You can discover any MAC on a switch..
Slides you a beer..It’s late here also

Not likely. Unless you know some network-fu I don’t, or unless you are hacking the router on the last hop to get access to the switch. When I want look up someone’s mac address, I have to log into the router they are connected to.

394 nonic  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:21:10pm

re: #332 Bagua

I disagree, while educating the children is a good idea, it is not in itself a panacea. The abusers are far more sophisticated than the children and often have a great deal of control and opportunity. It is far more effective to prosecute the offenders and deprive them of the opportunities for abuse.

I didn’t say that the ONLY thing to do is wise the kids up. OF COURSE, we have to screen caretakers (which we do) and prosecute and punish offenders (which we do).

But you don’t go through life thinking you can leave your keys in the ignition because car thieves are prosecuted.

Same thing. Kids need to know they have rights — and responsibilities.

395 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:21:12pm

re: #390 SanFranciscoZionist

And, at least 25% of what I’ve read at one of the stalker sites, are posts about Charles or LGF. It’s very psychotic, IMO.

396 tradewind  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:22:08pm

re: #380 albusteve

It’s not unlike the suicide-by-cop phenomenon. Maybe ’ webicide-by-blogmaster ‘.

397 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:23:45pm

re: #396 tradewind

It’s not unlike the suicide-by-cop phenomenon. Maybe ’ webicide-by-blogmaster ‘.

That’s a very accurate analogy!

398 austin_blue  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:24:31pm

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

On an orthodox blog I read, we once had a very interesting discussion of the distinction between science, pseudo-science and magic in the Torah. Once again, purple pieces.

Absolutely! I like to study religion. What people do for tradition and ritual!

Both Judaism and Islam (and please don’t yell at me for this- it’s true) are religions that, as practiced by traditionalists, use their holy texts as ways to live their civil lives. They are both relationships between the People and their God through ritual and Rules. Think how alien both praying to mecca several times a day and having two refrigerators and two sets of dishes are to most Americans.

399 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:25:36pm

re: #356 midwestgak

They all reasoned with God. Abraham regarding Lot (i.e If there be just 10 righteous, would you spare the city? For the sake of 10 I will not destroy it). No faith questioned here.

It seems to me that “faith” is being used in two different senses:

(1) Belief that God indeed exists

vs.

(2) Trusting that God is wise (rather than crazy) and benevolent (rather than cruel) and fair (rather than capricious), etc.

The Bible does have many instances in which someone’s faith falters temporarily, but only when “faith” is meant in Sense 2. In other words, people in the Bible (temporarily) doubt God’s character, but not His very existence.

400 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:29:09pm

re: #382 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s just that separating Judaism into religious and cultural components is sort of like separating the Legos into red and blue piles when most of the structure is shades of purple.

Actually I think I updinged you, or Coracle upstairs, but while I agree, I also disagree. How’s that LOL

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

On an orthodox blog I read, we once had a very interesting discussion of the distinction between science, pseudo-science and magic in the Torah. Once again, purple pieces.

It’s interesting. I saw a PBS show on how they were proving the 10 plagues. That there was a volcanic eruption during the time of Moses and the Mt. Vesuvius erupted. The tidal wave that ensued went for many 100s of miles, possibly pulling back the Sea of Reeds, bringing the frogs, killing wildlife (river of blood) and so on.

I think it’s pretty cool to go back and prove it, but I also like having faith. I find it comforting. Not everything has to be tactical and I think life would be very uninspiring without it.

401 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:31:11pm

re: #398 austin_blue

Absolutely! I like to study religion. What people do for tradition and ritual!

Both Judaism and Islam (and please don’t yell at me for this- it’s true) are religions that, as practiced by traditionalists, use their holy texts as ways to live their civil lives. They are both relationships between the People and their God through ritual and Rules. Think how alien both praying to mecca several times a day and having two refrigerators and two sets of dishes are to most Americans.

See that’s the culture part that both our cultures share, Kosher rules. There’s also other cultural things, that are indeed in the Talmud, like how you treating strangers or guests in your home. That’s about being raised in the Middle East than religious, Islam v. Judaism.

402 Bagua  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:31:42pm

re: #394 nonic

I didn’t say that the ONLY thing to do is wise the kids up. OF COURSE, we have to screen caretakers (which we do) and prosecute and punish offenders (which we do).

But you don’t go through life thinking you can leave your keys in the ignition because car thieves are prosecuted.

Same thing. Kids need to know they have rights — and responsibilities.

The problem with the Church was that the conspiracy sometimes involved the people doing the screening, the caretaking, the teaching and the punishing. They had all those bases covered and were shielded from the police and any social services.

Education is rendered ineffective when the educator is the offender. This is the problem when there is corruption and a criminal enterprise involved.

403 Coracle  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:32:06pm

re: #400 marjoriemoon

Actually I think I updinged you, or Coracle upstairs, but while I agree, I also disagree. How’s that LOL

That sounds very Jewish (dunno if you are or not, but either way, it’s not meant as an insult).

404 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:34:23pm

Re “Modern” church buildings, this quote from Henry Adams says it all:

“Religious art is the measure of human sincerity: and triviality, any weakness, cries aloud.”

From Mount St. Michael & Chartres, 1905.

405 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:36:27pm

re: #403 Coracle

That sounds very Jewish (dunno if you are or not, but either way, it’s not meant as an insult).

LOL That was actually a posting error! I was replying to about 5 of your statements with SF and just kept adding on and deleting!!

Yes it’s very Jewish. I definitely consider myself a cultural Jew, but I’m also deeply spiritual and love reading about the religion although I really don’t practice. So I don’t know how to define it.

When I think of cultures, I think of African Jews, Indian Jews, Iranian Jews. We all have very different cultures, but if I was a room full of all these different Jews, I know I would feel an instant family relationship.

406 Ojoe  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:37:54pm

Anyway IMHO the human spirit that built the Cathedeals now builds the Hubble Space Telescope, and the Mars rovers and like things.

407 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:39:19pm

re: #204 Occasional Reader

If you’ll pardon my French:

Holy fucking shit.

I’m glad you’re here with us, Sal.

Seconded…

408 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:43:28pm

re: #401 marjoriemoon

See that’s the culture part that both our cultures share, Kosher rules. There’s also other cultural things, that are indeed in the Talmud, like how you treating strangers or guests in your home. That’s about being raised in the Middle East than religious, Islam v. Judaism.

maroriemoon -

For what it is worth “Halal” is Kosher-Lite - apart from not requiring that slaughtering knives be washed between animals, it allows for eating shellfish. Truth be told, I cheat here and there. The rules ARE, however the rules, even if in my case more aspirational than always real. Put simply - KOSHER IS HALAL - HALAL IS NOT ALWAYS KOSHER.

-S-

409 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:48:02pm

re: #408 Dr. Shalit

maroriemoon -

For what it is worth “Halal” is Kosher-Lite - apart from not requiring that slaughtering knives be washed between animals, it allows for eating shellfish. Truth be told, I cheat here and there. The rules ARE, however the rules, even if in my case more aspirational than always real. Put simply - KOSHER IS HALAL - HALAL IS NOT ALWAYS KOSHER.

-S-

You’re absolutely correct and thanks for the explanation. But there are cultural ties between us that we don’t have with other religions which always make me wonder why we hate each other so much.

There was a recent article in jpost about how 90% of today’s Palestinians were converted Jews from 100s of years ago, even if their ancestors were Syrian and Egyptian. Very interesting read. I’ll try to find it.

410 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:49:30pm

re: #384 Jimmah

Since it’s sunday where I am : Baptazia!


Happy Sunday, Comrade!

411 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:53:41pm

re: #408 Dr. Shalit

maroriemoon -

For what it is worth “Halal” is Kosher-Lite - apart from not requiring that slaughtering knives be washed between animals, it allows for eating shellfish. Truth be told, I cheat here and there. The rules ARE, however the rules, even if in my case more aspirational than always real. Put simply - KOSHER IS HALAL - HALAL IS NOT ALWAYS KOSHER.

-S-

It was Israel National News, not Jpost.

Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel

412 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:56:17pm

re: #373 Charles

I think it’s more a matter of deep-seated psychological problems.

I think there’s a more charitable explanation, at least in some cases — people ask to have their accounts deleted for essentially the same reason that a problem drinker says “Please take my car keys away!”

As I know many here will attest, LGF can be more addictive than pistachio nuts rolled in crystal meth. And disgruntled Lizards who’ve decided that it’s best to go the “amicable divorce” route may fear that they’ll be tempted back on some lonely Friday night when the weather sucks and there’s nothing good to rent at Blockbuster. And the next thing you know, there’s screaming and crying and total-public-meltdown stuff. So, having the foresight to say “please take my LGF keys away” could be a wise and quite commendable idea for people who know they have self-control issues.

Obviously, this interpretation is only plausible in cases where the exit is done in a quick, graceful way, without an angry multi-post screed or other DQ bridge-burning. But I can certainly see why some people would publicly request their accounts be blocked just to “keep themselves honest,” as it were.

413 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 6:57:19pm

re: #412 Throbert McGee

I have yet to see a case where that was true.

414 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 7:06:52pm

re: #410 iceweasel

Happy Sunday, Comrade!

And you, i-Dubski!

415 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 7:09:19pm

re: #412 Throbert McGee

I think there’s a more charitable explanation, at least in some cases — people ask to have their accounts deleted for essentially the same reason that a problem drinker says “Please take my car keys away!”

That makes no sense, Throbert. Not only is it demonstrably not true—because these people run over to a stalking shithole to proudly repost their dramatic statement — let’s pretend, for a minute, that your theory were correct.

There is no reason why they couldn’t ask charles privately, in a nice email, to delete their account to help them with their ‘problem’.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and bet that Charles has never gotten an email like that- unless it was also filled with abuse.

The flouncing absolutely does have to do with psychological problems in many cases, and in others a kind of pathetic attempt to win approval from their new ‘buds’ in the Villages of the Banned.

And I really don’t get your recent need to defend these people. You’ve been bending over backwards to give them all every benefit of the doubt, often (as here) to unbelievable lengths. What’s up with that?

416 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 7:29:59pm

re: #413 Charles

I have yet to see a case where that was true.

Well, I try to go by a modified version of Hanlon’s Razor and exclude all other options before assuming “malice.” But then again, I have the luxury of NOT having been in your chair for the past eight years. If I’d endured 1/100th as much malice and venom as has been flung at you over the years, I guess I’d probably find a hell of a lot harder to give people the benefit of the doubt. And forgive me for having added to your troubles with the frog shit and the abortion debate. LGF is such a wonderful place and I really would like to do some small thing to improve it, but the only thing I’m good at is candor, Russian translation, and dick jokes. And since dick jokes and Russian are fairly useless, candid feedback is all I’ve really got to offer.

417 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 7:35:49pm

re: #416 Throbert McGee

Look, Man- I tried to tell you this morning that a lot of these people have been harboring resentments against Charles for months, if not years, and they manifest themselves into these flounces and acts of back stabbing. You can see it in their comments, and you can see it in their attitudes. These are not coming from out of nowhere- they display their resentments long before their melt downs.

418 Yankee Zionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 7:59:10pm

re: #67 SixDegrees


There may not be any damning written evidence. A record of frequent transfers, for instance, isn’t evidence of guilt and is actually fairly common as populations shift and demand for priests shifts with it. And knowledge of spoken admissions or revelations may be protected by the seal of the confessional, which no warrant is going to breach.

I think you are wrong here. If you look at the other priest abuse scandal there has always been enormous written evidence documenting both the abuse and and knowledge of this abuse by people in positions of authority. This was particularly true in the Archdiocese of Boston, where the individual personnel files of the molesting priests included details of the accusations and descriptions of the efforts to keep the scandal quiet.

I would bet my house on the existence of such material in the LA archdiocese as well. It will be more than a frequent record of transfers, but details of accusations and the diocesan responses to the problems.

The paper is there. I guarantee you the paper is there. There is no need to break the seal of confessional. The paper is there.

419 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:04:30pm

re: #298 Coracle

Take a look at the examples of Abaraham and Moses. They questioned god quite a bit. One could argue that any faith with them as a foundation has that kind of questioning at its root. I can personally only speak for Judaism, but from what I understand Jesus also had quite the crisis of questioning as well.

Questioning is not disallowed by most. It is the answer that is looked for.

420 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:06:40pm

re: #416 Throbert McGee

Well, I try to go by a modified version of Hanlon’s Razor and exclude all other options before assuming “malice.” .

Fair enough, but I’d suggest you read my 415.
One doesn’t need to be attributing malice to all those individuals to accept that what I say is true. Some of them are malicious, and they go on to display that. The others either have psych problems, or they want to impress their new buddies. And often it’s a combination.

It really wouldn’t be hard to email Charles privately and nicely ask for an account deletion, if one really was having some kind of internet addiction problem. But they don’t do that.

421 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:08:32pm

re: #415 iceweasel

And I really don’t get your recent need to defend these people. You’ve been bending over backwards to give them all every benefit of the doubt, often (as here) to unbelievable lengths. What’s up with that?

Excuse me, Cardinal Fang?

Apparently I had some sort of drug- or alcohol-induced memory blackout in which I went on a rampage of apologia on behalf of dozens of different “flouncers”, in which case I must beg forgiveness and blame the demon rum.

But as far as I can actually recall, the only individual I went to any length to defend was wahabicorridor — a gesture I felt I owed her because I know her real name, I’ve shaken her hand, I’ve eaten at her house, and she even remembered to ask about the health of my pet Rugby, after the long period I’d been away from LGF. And she’s never given me reason to regret trusting her.

In any case, although wahabicorridor and I aren’t in any sense “close friends,” I have fond memories of her, and so I took some personal offense when you and Sharmuta chose to tarnish her as having acted spitefully with regard to the handling of the prayer list. (You could’ve been magnanimous and said, instead, “Whoops, she probably just forgot to give the list to someone else because she was momentarily ticked off” — it would’ve made you look a lot better.)

422 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:11:37pm

But having said all that, what I shoulda-oughta said was:

Iceweasel, unless Charles has entrusted you to be some kind of peacekeeping deputy, it’s just none of your goddamn beeswax why I feel the need to defend some people.

423 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:16:34pm

re: #422 Throbert McGee

But having said all that, what I shoulda-oughta said was:

Iceweasel, unless Charles has entrusted you to be some kind of peacekeeping deputy, it’s just none of your goddamn beeswax why I feel the need to defend some people.

Uh, unless Charles has made you the Thread Police, I’m pretty sure you don’t have the right to tell anyone what they can and can’t post.

Believe it or not, it was an honest question on my part. You never struck me as a contrarian before— someone who disagrees for the pleasure of disagreeing — so I find some of your recent posts kind of odd. Not to mention increasingly hostile.

424 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:19:13pm

re: #421 Throbert McGee

(You could’ve been magnanimous and said, instead, “Whoops, she probably just forgot to give the list to someone else because she was momentarily ticked off” — it would’ve made you look a lot better.)

On the other hand, she could have posted it herself, before her flounce. Instead of announcing she’d keep it. It would have made her look a lot better.

And you could have considered the extremely pertinent points I just made, instead of, once again, doing everything you can to excuse things that are pretty clearly not reasonably excusable.

And your increasingly hostile and rude behaviour (Cardinal Fang? please) isn’t making you look any better either.

425 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:22:50pm

re: #421 Throbert McGee

n any case, although wahabicorridor and I aren’t in any sense “close friends,” I have fond memories of her, and so I took some personal offense when you and Sharmuta chose to tarnish her as having acted spitefully with regard to the handling of the prayer list. (You could’ve been magnanimous and said, instead, “Whoops, she probably just forgot to give the list to someone else because she was momentarily ticked off” — it would’ve made you look a lot better.)

Oh please. While your saintly, floating wahabbicorridor may have been nice to you, she was extremely unpleasant to myself and others. Furthermore her prayer list flounce was clearly and obviously spiteful and was aimed generally at this site as a whole. At the moment I’d say it was you who needed think about how to look better.

426 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:24:48pm

re: #421 Throbert McGee

I have fond memories of her, and so I took some personal offense when you and Sharmuta chose to tarnish her as having acted spitefully with regard to the handling of the prayer list.

She specifically stated she hadn’t posted the prayer list for a reason, and goes on to flounce because Charles had the nerve to ban people who were posting at stalker sites, and you think we should have been nicer to her? She’s the one who should have been more considerate to those who were interested in the prayer list despite her personal feelings. To withhold the list intentionally showed a disrespect to this community.

427 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:28:56pm

re: #425 Jimmah

Oh please. While your saintly, floating wahabbicorridor may have been nice to you, she was extremely unpleasant to myself and others. Furthermore her prayer list flounce was clearly and obviously spiteful and was aimed generally at this site as a whole. At the moment I’d say it was you who needed think about how to look better.

Exactly. It’d be pretty difficult to find a more concise example of pettiness, malice, and yes, spite. Not a huge act of malice and spite in the grand scheme of malicious and spiteful acts, but all the same. Again, I’m mystified at how that can be denied.

And “saintly, floating wahabicorridor” is brilliant, Jimmahski. :-)

428 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:32:55pm

Additionally, Throbert- there have been a number of people at LGF who have shown me kindnesses, but when they resort to blatant displays of disrespect to Charles and LGF, I feel no need to defend them. Doesn’t mean I wish them ill personally or anything like that, it just means that their disrespect to their host and this community is theirs, and they can own it themselves- without help from you, me or anyone else. In fact- to defend them is to take partial ownership for their disrespect upon yourself, imo.

429 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:33:49pm

re: #427 iceweasel

Exactly. It’d be pretty difficult to find a more concise example of pettiness, malice, and yes, spite. Not a huge act of malice and spite in the grand scheme of malicious and spiteful acts, but all the same. Again, I’m mystified at how that can be denied.

And “saintly, floating wahabicorridor” is brilliant, Jimmahski. :-)

Thanks for the compliment, i-Dub :)

And yep - this is a no-brainer. It is crazy that there is even an argument about it.

430 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:34:56pm

This is not my beef, since I missed the grand event, but would someone please summarize what the flounce was about?

431 Yankee Zionist  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:35:46pm

what does flounce mean?

432 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:39:41pm

re: #431 Yankee Zionist

what does flounce mean?

Not sure if there is an official definition, but it is someone who goes away in an imaginary blaze of glory. As in “cancel my account because I don’t like you for the following multiple reasons, and my sentiment have been hurt”.

433 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:42:29pm

re: #430 Naso Tang

The former keeper of the prayer list posted there was a reason she hadn’t been posting it in the last few weeks, and went on to flounce because Charles banned a friend of hers.

Some of us thought it rude to use the prayer list as a weapon, and stated this. Others were offended we’d state our opinions on the matter because the person as a friend of theirs.

434 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:45:10pm

re: #430 Naso Tang

This is not my beef, since I missed the grand event, but would someone please summarize what the flounce was about?

Roughly speaking, wahabbicorridor flounced with a “all your prayer lists are belong to us” message. And a “you fools don’t even know who cupcake from 2.0 was”. It was as obvious and clear cut a “fuck you all” message as you’ll ever see, basically.

435 Achilles Tang  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:53:54pm

So it would seem that it was a choice between friends, or a friend and others.

In any case there are many ways to do so. I gather this one was a knee jerk.

436 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:56:01pm

re: #434 Jimmah

Roughly speaking, wahabbicorridor flounced with a “all your prayer lists are belong to us” message. And a “you fools don’t even know who cupcake from 2.0 was”. It was as obvious and clear cut a “fuck you all” message as you’ll ever see, basically.

Heh. “You have no chance to pray mark ur time.”

The flounce, like the troll, has many manifestations. Some are like banzai pilots that crash and burn, others prefer the slo-mo detonation version, still others craft epics feverishly late at night, surviving on nothing but Mountain Dew and snorted Cheeto dust, patiently reworking their masterpiece in their basement, waiting for the right moment to post it.

All in service of leaving a histrionic comment which is deleted within an hour, tops, and is usually gone within 30 seconds or less.

Saintly wahabi’s comment wasn’t much of a flounce, really. The UK judges gave it a 1.8.

437 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 8:58:33pm

re: #436 iceweasel

Heh. “You have no chance to pray mark ur time.”

The flounce, like the troll, has many manifestations. Some are like banzai pilots that crash and burn, others prefer the slo-mo detonation version, still others craft epics feverishly late at night, surviving on nothing but Mountain Dew and snorted Cheeto dust, patiently reworking their masterpiece in their basement, waiting for the right moment to post it.

All in service of leaving a histrionic comment which is deleted within an hour, tops, and is usually gone within 30 seconds or less.

Saintly wahabi’s comment wasn’t much of a flounce, really. The UK judges gave it a 1.8.

U.K. judges are so harsh…

438 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 9:02:17pm

re: #437 ludwigvanquixote

U.K. judges are so harsh…

Not as harsh as the Scottish judges, I think you’ll find ;-)

439 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 9:40:10pm

re: #418 Yankee Zionist

I think you are wrong here. If you look at the other priest abuse scandal there has always been enormous written evidence documenting both the abuse and and knowledge of this abuse by people in positions of authority. This was particularly true in the Archdiocese of Boston, where the individual personnel files of the molesting priests included details of the accusations and descriptions of the efforts to keep the scandal quiet.

I would bet my house on the existence of such material in the LA archdiocese as well. It will be more than a frequent record of transfers, but details of accusations and the diocesan responses to the problems.

The paper is there. I guarantee you the paper is there. There is no need to break the seal of confessional. The paper is there.

Heyas Yank!

If you’re still reading… did you (or anyone) see Penn & Teller’s “Bullshit!” I don’t recall if Charles ran it. He’s ran some of their stuff. They rip into Catholicism, particularly about the priests and talk extensively about documentation right from the Vatican.

I like P&T although sometimes they’re too rude for my taste. They made fun of Mother Theresa, call the nuns penguins/lesbians, etc. I know that’s their schtick and all. But despite it, they quite often make some good points.

440 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 9:57:00pm

re: #425 Jimmah

Oh please. While your saintly, floating wahabbicorridor may have been nice to you, she was extremely unpleasant to myself and others.

And why do you assume that I knew that about her before you told me just now, Jimmah?

441 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:04:02pm

re: #418 Yankee Zionist

Totally agree with you. In the other cases there’s turned out to be an extensive and embarrassing paper trail. The history suggests that this would be no different.
Some of this behaviour in the past, I think, was semi-innocent: the higherups were ignorant of the nature of paedophilia (as well as immediately having the impulse to close ranks and protect their own). So they’d send the offender off to ‘therapy’ or various inhouse programs, and after six weeks believe he was cured.

Sometimes they’d think, if the offenses were with six year olds, that they should just remove Father Paedo from teaching the communion classes…but he’d be ‘safe’ with the confirmation classes, because the kids are 11.
So some of the really awful reassignments to positions where they’d be in contact with children again were, I believe, due to ignorance of the nature of paedophilia.

There’s still no excuse for lying, coveringup, and hindering criminal prosecutions of these people, all of which were also done at the higher levels. And that sort of thing was done knowing it was wrong. The damage it’s done to so many believing Catholics is incredible.

re: #439 marjoriemoon

Hey MM!
Haven’t seen that yet; I’ll have to do so.

442 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:10:19pm

re: #440 Throbert McGee

And why do you assume that I knew that about her before you told me just now, Jimmah?

I didn’t make that assumption. But you should have been aware of the possibility, don’t you think? Or did you really think that her having been nice to you precluded that?(which is how it came across). Isn’t it a bit obvious that someone flouncing out of the place the way she did might have had issues with at least some people here?

443 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:17:46pm

re: #438 Jimmah

Not as harsh as the Scottish judges, I think you’ll find ;-)

Damn them! :)

Till a’ the seas gang dry, my dear,
And the rocks melt wi’ the sun.

Not harsh enough though, if we go by this, mah wee lamb:

444 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:27:09pm

re: #443 iceweasel

Damn them! :)

Till a’ the seas gang dry, my dear,
And the rocks melt wi’ the sun.

Not harsh enough though, if we go by this, mah wee lamb:

“Bring back mah lassie hame tae me”

Thanks ice. Always good to see Jesse Rae :) Can’t leave the thread now without a wee lallans verse for you:

Let love sparkle in her e’e;
Let her lo’e nae man but me;
That’s the tocher-gude I prize,
There the luver’s treasure lies.

445 What, me worry?  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:31:14pm

re: #441 iceweasel

Hey Ice! It’s on youtube (of course). Part 1 of 3.

They make the point that when the Vatican’s documentation was revealed, about 10 years or so ago (?), that was when the victims were able to take legal action against the Church. Before that there was no written proof. These documents, I believe put out during the changes of Vatican II, talk about the child abuse and direct the archdiocese to either say nothing or move the priests along.

They also talk about the weak apology from the Pope to the victims.

Peter Isely, who was molested by a priest in Wisconsin at age 13, stood outside the hotel where the press vans dropped off reporters after the speech to hand out a flier with reaction from victims, all disappointed. Isely says he did sense an apology in the pope’s words, but it wasn’t for people like him. “He seemed to be apologizing to the bishops and the hurt that this has caused them. He started off on the plane talking in generalities, and we were hoping when he got here he’d get down to specifics. But he’s still way up there in the air.”

I’d be interested to hear the other side of this if there is one since I know next to nothing about what the Vatican II wrote, except that part which we didn’t kill Jesus which I’m ok about.

446 Jimmah  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:31:28pm

re: #443 iceweasel

Oh and I also couldn’t leave the thread without posting one more Jesse Rae video :)

447 iceweasel  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 10:48:45pm

re: #446 Jimmah

Yay! I knew it would be that. :)

re: #445 marjoriemoon

Cool— will check out links. I have some info on vatican ii but i’ll research and make sure I’m right first. I’ll let you know.

And now, so to bed…

448 Throbert McGee  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 11:00:13pm

re: #442 Jimmah

Isn’t it a bit obvious that someone flouncing out of the place the way she did might have had issues with at least some people here?

Of course that’s obvious, Jimmah. What I’m trying to decide is whether those issues were her fault or your fault. Just because she’s gone and you’re still here doesn’t mean you’re entitled to a presumption of innocence while she must be guilty.

I have no freakin’ idea what transpired between wahabi and you guys; I did do a search for her username in the archives going back to the beginning of August, and nothing nasty in tone towards you or anyone else jumped out at me. Was it earlier than that?

Anyway, supposing for the sake of argument that wahabi had been a vicious bitch to you and Sharmuta and iceweasel and others sometime in June. You shouldn’t assume that I or any other lizard knows anything at all about the quarrel unless we were there at the time to witness it (and I certainly can’t recall any fights between you and wahabi).

Incidentally, I searched the recent threads on Blogmocracy a little earlier and although someone there reposted wahabi’s “flounce post” from here, I didn’t see anyone claiming to actually be wahabi hanging around at Blogmocracy. I understand the objections to flouncers going over to stalkerblogs where some of the regulars are posting deranged, spiteful, and petty bullshit about LGF and Charles. But unless and until there’s evidence that a flouncer has taken the worst possible route by “turning stalker,” why is it objectionable for me or anyone else to defend the flouncers? They’re not lepers.

449 Sacred Plants  Sat, Sep 26, 2009 11:46:24pm

For every priest abusive to his altar boys, there are a hundred helpless priests spending their sunset years scorned by the abused generation.

Don´t tell you didn´t feel it coming.

450 iceweasel  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 1:33:45am

re: #448 Throbert McGee

Of course that’s obvious, Jimmah. What I’m trying to decide is whether those issues were her fault or your fault. Just because she’s gone and you’re still here doesn’t mean you’re entitled to a presumption of innocence while she must be guilty.

Uh, yes it does. She’s gone for a reason, throbert.

Every word you’ve written on this has been about how terribly, terribly unfair it is to ‘assume’ anything about your saintly floating wahabi, even while you admit you didn’t know about her past history of making very unpleasant remarks. Every other word you’ve written on it has been about your own wholly unsupported claims that others are guilty— guilty of ‘smearing’ St Wahabi, guilty of ‘making assumptions’ about her, guilty of being ‘too quick to judge’ her— tell me, where and when do you start admitting that you’re the one here with the very obvious bias?

You’ve even refused to consider her very own words in her final post as evidence of spite, or malice, or even doing anything wrong, when it’s clear to everyone with a functioning brain what was going on. Again, dude, WTF?

451 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 1:57:48am

re: #448 Throbert McGee

Imagine turning to your host and telling them, “Yeah- so they pissed on the rug. They’re still not so bad. Why is everyone so upset that it smells of urine?”

452 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 7:20:37am

re: #418 Yankee Zionist

I think you are wrong here. If you look at the other priest abuse scandal there has always been enormous written evidence documenting both the abuse and and knowledge of this abuse by people in positions of authority. This was particularly true in the Archdiocese of Boston, where the individual personnel files of the molesting priests included details of the accusations and descriptions of the efforts to keep the scandal quiet.

I would bet my house on the existence of such material in the LA archdiocese as well. It will be more than a frequent record of transfers, but details of accusations and the diocesan responses to the problems.

The paper is there. I guarantee you the paper is there. There is no need to break the seal of confessional. The paper is there.

Maybe. I offered my statement as a hypothetical, not as a declaration of fact. Neither you nor I know with any certainty what may or may not exist.

453 Jimmah  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 11:27:07am

re: #448 Throbert McGee

Yes maybe everyone who’s ever flounced before and gone to 2.0 or whatever was actually a saint and it’s everyone here on LGF that’s the asshole? And now we have to prove our ‘innocence’ to you, the person who had such a hard time seeing anything wrong with Ace of Spades?

As it happens, wahabicorridor was an extremist who was not only against radical Islam but actually just bigoted towards muslims in general. She was also a bigoted gypsy hater, and had a big problem with anyone who did not share that hatred with her and who was prepared to say something to her about it. Her worst comments on that topic were deleted.

But if you can’t find any evidence of jerkiness or nastiness after a quick search through the archives then thats our problem, and you assume we are just making shit up! As iceweasel put it - wtf dude?

454 Throbert McGee  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 1:55:32pm

re: #453 Jimmah

As it happens, wahabicorridor was an extremist who was not only against radical Islam but actually just bigoted towards muslims in general. She was also a bigoted gypsy hater, and had a big problem with anyone who did not share that hatred with her and who was prepared to say something to her about it. Her worst comments on that topic were deleted.

Well, she’s off my Christmas list, then.

But why didn’t you or sharm or ice say something remotely along the above lines a lot earlier? The fact that she has a past history of making bigoted statements that had to be deleted is a lot more compelling than the simple assertion that it was obviously spiteful and petty of her to take the prayer list*.

*Which can’t actually be “taken” because it exists as a publicly posted document in the LGF comment archives.

455 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 1:58:17pm

re: #454 Throbert McGee

Sorry, but when you and other lizards ask me or ice or Jimmah to basically shut up what makes you think we’re going to continue telling you what the problem is?

456 Jimmah  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 4:37:32pm

re: #454 Throbert McGee

Well, she’s off my Christmas list, then.

But why didn’t you or sharm or ice say something remotely along the above lines a lot earlier? The fact that she has a past history of making bigoted statements that had to be deleted is a lot more compelling than the simple assertion that it was obviously spiteful and petty of her to take the prayer list*.

*Which can’t actually be “taken” because it exists as a publicly posted document in the LGF comment archives.

It wasn’t a ‘simple assertion’ ; it was an obvious fact. You went to the trouble of chasing the comment down on 2.0 to read it in the hope that you could find something in it to exhonerate her. So I KNOW that you read the bit about her silly attempt to taunt us about ‘not even knowing who cupcake is’ - a comment that reveals she is in communication with stalkers on 2.0 (who else would know who cupcake is?) and very much shares their outlook on LGF.

But that didnt give you pause to reflect for one second, did it? Than means you are either just piss poor at comprehending what is going on around you, or you have been playing a little game here, Throbert.

Your (willful?) ignorance and inability to see what is obvious to others is not my responsibility, nor is it my problem. It’s very much yours.

457 Yankee Zionist  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 7:13:45pm

re: #439 marjoriemoon

I’m a member of the Roman Catholic church. I joined after the priest abuse scandal.

If that surprises you, believe you me, it came as a shock to me as well. (It’s a long story.) But I joined knowning full well how screwed up the church is. I know victims, saw some of the documents and have peered into the abyss caused by the scandal. And still, I joined and it was one of the most powerful moments of my life.

I don’t know what Penn and Teller think about the church. A few years ago I would have agreed with them. Now I’m sad that people in authority have given them them good reason to think the way they do.

Charle’s links about the Catholic church in Ireland have been real eye-openers for me. Raising a lot of questions, but not shaking my faith.

I’m as mad at state officials as I am at church officials. I think some people in the heirarchy should probably have been prosecuted. It’s not just a sin, it’s a felony.

458 iceweasel  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 8:19:38pm

re: #454 Throbert McGee


But why didn’t you or sharm or ice say something remotely along the above lines a lot earlier?

Here’s a pithier question: Why are you continuing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who flounce, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt to this site and its owner?

Nice attempt to somehow throw this on me or Sharm or Jimmah— that your total fucking cluelessness here is actually somehow OUR fault, rather than yours. Bullshit.

And you’re not stupid Throbert. Your pathetic attempt to claim that some people might have innocent reasons for publicly asking for an account deletion was the most breathtaking act of rationalisation I’ve seen in some time. You’re not so dumb that my points shouldn’t occur to you— that people could have privately and nicely emailed Charles in that instance. Yet they don’t.

So: Clueless, or deliberately playing dumb? I have to go with the latter. The question remains: Why?

459 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 9:46:23pm
460 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 9:49:38pm

Bye now.

461 Jimmah  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 11:12:47pm

Bye now Throbert (and sock puppet). Enjoy your new life among the psychos and morons of 2.0, Ace of Spades or whatever wingnut grief-hole you end up in. You’ll fit right in, as they hate teh gay community* just as much as you do!

*They’ll make an exception for you of course - as a self hating gay they’ll love you to bits. You will be to them as Naturei Karta is to Ahmedinejad. Have fun, idiot.

Play him off keyboard kitty!

462 iceweasel  Sun, Sep 27, 2009 11:41:20pm

re: #461 Jimmah

Bye now Throbert (and sock puppet). Enjoy your new life among the psychos and morons of 2.0, Ace of Spades or whatever wingnut grief-hole you end up in. You’ll fit right in, as they hate teh gay community* just as much as you do!

*They’ll make an exception for you of course - as a self hating gay they’ll love you to bits. You will be to them as Naturei Karta is to Ahmedinejad. Have fun, idiot.

Play him off keyboard kitty!


[Video]

That was some major derangement syndrome right there. It’d been building for weeks on a variety of issues, targeted at a few different people. Pretty clear it was coming. The blind and pigheaded defence of Saint Wahabbi, of all people, was just the most recent and obvious.

Throbert Butthurt:

(no, this is NOT a sexual reference, people, so don’t even pretend to call me a homophobe or anything less than a fervent supporter of and member in the LGBTQ community. I’m not the one that needed Ace’s rampant homophobia to be pointed out.)


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