Friedman: The Right is Going Dangerously Crazy

Opinion • Views: 6,631

Thomas Friedman draws some disturbing parallels between present day America, with a right wing going absolutely nuts, and Israel in the administration of Yitzhak Rabin: Where Did ‘We’ Go?

I was in Israel interviewing Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin just before he was assassinated in 1995. We had a beer in his office. He needed one. I remember the ugly mood in Israel then — a mood in which extreme right-wing settlers and politicians were doing all they could to delegitimize Rabin, who was committed to trading land for peace as part of the Oslo accords. They questioned his authority. They accused him of treason. They created pictures depicting him as a Nazi SS officer, and they shouted death threats at rallies. His political opponents winked at it all.

And in so doing they created a poisonous political environment that was interpreted by one right-wing Jewish nationalist as a license to kill Rabin — he must have heard, “God will be on your side” — and so he did.

Others have already remarked on this analogy, but I want to add my voice because the parallels to Israel then and America today turn my stomach: I have no problem with any of the substantive criticism of President Obama from the right or left. But something very dangerous is happening. Criticism from the far right has begun tipping over into delegitimation and creating the same kind of climate here that existed in Israel on the eve of the Rabin assassination.

What kind of madness is it that someone would create a poll on Facebook asking respondents, “Should Obama be killed?” The choices were: “No, Maybe, Yes, and Yes if he cuts my health care.” The Secret Service is now investigating. I hope they put the jerk in jail and throw away the key because this is exactly what was being done to Rabin.

UPDATE at 9/30/09 11:52:17 am:

RNC chairman Michael Steele calls Thomas Friedman a ‘nut job’. And this is why things are getting so dangerous.

Friedman wrote: “[Yitzhak’s] political opponents winked at it all.”

Steele is actually reinforcing this point, by lashing out at Friedman instead of acknowledging the existence of the problem.

Jump to bottom

449 comments
1 zeir  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:06:40am

When I was a kid we were taught about the consequences of threatening the President; that the Secret Service would be on you. Now people don't seem to care...

2 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:06:45am

You know The Stupid (tm) has to be getting bad when Friedman, of all people, calls us out on it.

3 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:06:46am

Anytime killing your political opponents gets pondered, bad times are ahead

4 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:06:58am

Boy That's gonna leave a mark...But one few will notice on the right.

5 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:07:34am

UP-DING!

6 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:07:42am

Insanity under the guise of anything is still insanity.

I don't see this polarization going away any time soon.

7 bratwurst  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:08:08am

Very timely piece!

8 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #4 HoosierHoops

Boy That's gonna leave a mark...But one few will notice on the right.

I'm wondering how many will simply ignore him since he's a Jew.

9 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:08:19am

How do we classify the 'DS' on both sides of the aisle?

10 PatriotLizardoid  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:08:55am

Charles you did a wonderful job exposing the dangerous craziness of the far left when George Bush was in office. I can still go to Zombie's blog and see a lot of the 'assassination chic' that was all too common place at their demonstrations, and a lot of the revolting anti-Israel / antisemitic artwork that went with it.

You are also doing a fine job of exposing dangerous craziness of the far right. Keep it up. Discourse like this should be frowned upon (and shunned) by true conservative leaders.

11 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:08:56am

Google is down.

12 SasyMomaCat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:09:13am

The inmates are running the asylum for the American "right"

13 Danny  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:09:47am

re: #11 Charles

Works for me.

14 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #11 Charles

Google is down.

I got in.

15 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:10:20am

re: #11 Charles

Google is down.

You searched high and low, and found it low?

16 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:10:25am

re: #11 Charles

Google is down.

Not for me.

17 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:10:27am

re: #13 Danny

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think he meant "down" like, jive talk "down".

18 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:10:38am

re: #11 Charles

Google is down.

Opening strike by the Hardin, Montana-based Obama militia. They're hitting our command-and-control.

/

19 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:10:39am

'Miss Trixie' from the stalker site just tried to register a sock puppet.

20 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:11:01am

Google's back now. Wasn't offline for very long.

21 Truth Stick  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:02am

"...going dangerously crazy..."

It seems like the right passed crazy about 4 exits ago, and just about to the junction of insane and batshit nutty.

22 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:05am

re: #18 Occasional Reader

Opening strike by the Hardin, Montana-based Obama militia. They're hitting our command-and-control.

/

I see the glaciers are advancing?

23 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:07am

re: #19 Charles

'Miss Trixie' from the stalker site just tried to register a sock puppet.

Do these people seriously think they can get by you? I'm sure most world governments would be envious of the monitoring capabilities built into this place.

24 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #19 Charles

'Miss Trixie' from the stalker site just tried to register a sock puppet.

They make a big deal about leaving and then try to sneak back in.

I fart in their general direction.

25 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:24am

And a volley back...

Steele: Tom Friedman a 'nut job'

26 Summer Seale  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:36am

The problem is that it needs to come from the op-ed writers on the right instead of the left or center.

Nobody on the right cares what Friedman says. I agree with what he says, but he's not going to make a valid point to the people who are crazy right now. It has to come from the right wing politicians and media, and therein lies the problem.

He's not saying anything new. We've been saying it for months and months now. The problem is that nobody in that venue is listening or wants to speak up. If somebody like Michelle Malkin changed her mind and started making that point, that might carry some weight. I'm not waiting for it though. We all know that those kinds of people are making a fortune on the paranoid conspiracies they are spinning right now.

27 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:48am

re: #25 Pianobuff

And a volley back...

Steele: Tom Friedman a 'nut job'

Yes, because calling someone a nut job is a GREAT way to rebut their argument.

28 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:12:55am

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

I see the glaciers are advancing?

Slowly.

Relentlessly.

29 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #11 Charles

The stock, or the site?
///

30 jaunte  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:03am

Friedman is absolutely right about this:

The American political system was, as the saying goes, “designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots.” But a cocktail of political and technological trends have converged in the last decade that are making it possible for the idiots of all political stripes to overwhelm and paralyze the genius of our system.

Those factors are: the wild excess of money in politics; the gerrymandering of political districts, making them permanently Republican or Democratic and erasing the political middle; a 24/7 cable news cycle that makes all politics a daily battle of tactics that overwhelm strategic thinking; and a blogosphere that at its best enriches our debates, adding new checks on the establishment, and at its worst coarsens our debates to a whole new level, giving a new power to anonymous slanderers to send lies around the world.

I think that structural change in political districts is the most serious issue of all those that he lists; the underlying problem is that there is a shrinking number of politicians who need the moderate center.

31 Locker  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:04am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They make a big deal about leaving and then try to sneak back in.

I fart in their general direction.

It's the "attention whore" gene that causes the big flounce in the first place. The compulsive checking of any comment about their flounce and the attempts to re-register for a reflounce is just another version of "Pay attention to me! I'm special!".

32 Truth Stick  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #29 tradewind

The stock, or the site?
///

Buy the dips

33 SpaceJesus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:18am

re: #19 Charles

'Miss Trixie' from the stalker site just tried to register a sock puppet.

can't you just IP ban them

34 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:29am

re: #28 Occasional Reader

Slowly.

Relentlessly.

Do you also see moraine in the forecast?

35 Locker  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #26 Summer

The problem is that it needs to come from the op-ed writers on the right instead of the left or center.

Nobody on the right cares what Friedman says. I agree with what he says, but he's not going to make a valid point to the people who are crazy right now. It has to come from the right wing politicians and media, and therein lies the problem.

He's not saying anything new. We've been saying it for months and months now. The problem is that nobody in that venue is listening or wants to speak up. If somebody like Michelle Malkin changed her mind and started making that point, that might carry some weight. I'm not waiting for it though. We all know that those kinds of people are making a fortune on the paranoid conspiracies they are spinning right now.

I would think if Michelle Malkin changed her mind even a little bit she'd be roasted in effigy and labeled a RINO in about 3 seconds flat.

36 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:14:56am

re: #33 SpaceJesus

can't you just IP ban them

IP banning is fairly useless these days.

37 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:08am

Is the current atmosphere really all that different than the one that obtained during the Bush administration following the disputed election? The left bayed themselves into a frenzy, calling the President illegitimate and putting the word "President" in quotation marks. Perhaps many here are more sensitive to the current situation because it has pitted former friends and allies of the right and center-right against one another. Consider that Charles is finding himself the target of sites that used to gladly link and quote LGF.

It always hurts more when your friends succumb to the latest political conspiracy theories, especially when they are disturbing as "Birtherism" and "Sekrit Muslim-ism".

38 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:13am

How long before the stalkers say this thread shows Charles is becoming anti-Israel?

39 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:17am

re: #33 SpaceJesus

can't you just IP ban them

But why take all the fun out of it?

40 jaunte  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:17am

re: #34 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do you also see moraine in the forecast?

It's a gravelly serious problem.

41 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:39am

re: #25 Pianobuff

And a volley back...

Steele: Tom Friedman a 'nut job'

Steele is busy leading the GOP into deeper territories of irrelevancy.

42 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:15:52am
43 Liberally Conservative  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:16:10am

If you think Tom Friedman, Mr. Generic "Mustache" Platitude, is a "nut job", then you've lost your sense of proportion.

44 SpaceJesus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:16:19am

re: #36 Charles

IP banning is fairly useless these days.

Yeah, I figured stalkerblog.com probably wasn't smart enough to use a proxy or a dynamic IP

45 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:16:20am
Sometimes I wonder whether George H.W. Bush, president “41,” will be remembered as our last “legitimate” president. The right impeached Bill Clinton and hounded him from Day 1 with the bogus Whitewater “scandal.” George W. Bush was elected under a cloud because of the Florida voting mess, and his critics on the left never let him forget it.

Obviously Friedman forgets all the scandals and hounding around GHW Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc, etc.

The right may be nuts, but I doubt the fears of civil war or coup d'etat I have seen in articles by folks from the left (Bette Midler's recent words come to mind) will ever come to fruition. More likely, we'll see incitement of more Tim McVeighs by the Glenn Becks.

I do, however, agree with Friedman on this,

The American political system was, as the saying goes, “designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots.” But a cocktail of political and technological trends have converged in the last decade that are making it possible for the idiots of all political stripes to overwhelm and paralyze the genius of our system.

Those factors are: the wild excess of money in politics; the gerrymandering of political districts, making them permanently Republican or Democratic and erasing the political middle; a 24/7 cable news cycle that makes all politics a daily battle of tactics that overwhelm strategic thinking; and a blogosphere that at its best enriches our debates, adding new checks on the establishment, and at its worst coarsens our debates to a whole new level, giving a new power to anonymous slanderers to send lies around the world. Finally, on top of it all, we now have a permanent presidential campaign that encourages all partisanship, all the time among our leading politicians.

Well said, and very true.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:17:11am

re: #40 jaunte

It's a gravelly serious problem.

It's all downhill from here.

47 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:17:33am

re: #25 Pianobuff

And a volley back...

Steele: Tom Friedman a 'nut job'

With an articulate, insightful defense like that, the party is doomed for certain.

48 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:18:14am

re: #37 imp_62

Is the current atmosphere really all that different than the one that obtained during the Bush administration following the disputed election? The left bayed themselves into a frenzy, calling the President illegitimate and putting the word "President" in quotation marks. Perhaps many here are more sensitive to the current situation because it has pitted former friends and allies of the right and center-right against one another. Consider that Charles is finding himself the target of sites that used to gladly link and quote LGF.

It always hurts more when your friends succumb to the latest political conspiracy theories, especially when they are disturbing as "Birtherism" and "Sekrit Muslim-ism".

Yes, I think it's quite a bit worse now. And I spent years covering the excesses of the left. I've never seen anything like what's happening on the right wing these days, and it's not just a few people. Some of this craziness is coming directly from GOP politicians and their advisers.

"Death panels" ring a bell? That didn't come from a fringe site like Alternet, it came from the GOP's candidate for vice president.

49 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #41 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Steele is busy leading the GOP into deeper territories of irrelevancy.

How do you see the VA and NJ gov. elections going this November? Just curious.

50 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:18:29am

re: #37 imp_62

Is the current atmosphere really all that different than the one that obtained during the Bush administration following the disputed election? The left bayed themselves into a frenzy, calling the President illegitimate and putting the word "President" in quotation marks. Perhaps many here are more sensitive to the current situation because it has pitted former friends and allies of the right and center-right against one another. Consider that Charles is finding himself the target of sites that used to gladly link and quote LGF.

It always hurts more when your friends succumb to the latest political conspiracy theories, especially when they are disturbing as "Birtherism" and "Sekrit Muslim-ism".

You do realize the difference between the two situations, yes? Obama was elected by a clearcut majority and an electoral college landslide. Bush lost the popular vote, and only gained the Presidency after a re-count of ballots in Florida was cut short by the Supreme Court in a contentious 5-4 split decision. The questions about the legitimacy of his Presidency were based on these facts.

None of these situations apply even remotely in Obama's case. That is the difference. And it is a huge one.

51 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:19:21am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They make a big deal about leaving and then try to sneak back in.

I fart in their general direction.

It's a high they get from flouncing. Eventually, it wears off, and they need to get that high again. Flouncing is a drug.

52 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:19:40am

re: #50 drcordell

You do realize the difference between the two situations, yes? Obama was elected by a clearcut majority and an electoral college landslide. Bush lost the popular vote, and only gained the Presidency after a re-count of ballots in Florida was cut short by the Supreme Court in a contentious 5-4 split decision. The questions about the legitimacy of his Presidency were based on these facts.

None of these situations apply even remotely in Obama's case. That is the difference. And it is a huge one.

Correct.

53 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:20:36am

re: #49 Pianobuff

How do you see the VA and NJ gov. elections going this November? Just curious.

Haven't been following them, so I won't venture a guess.

54 middy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:20:39am

re: #26 Summer

The problem is that it needs to come from the op-ed writers on the right instead of the left or center.

Nobody on the right cares what Friedman says. I agree with what he says, but he's not going to make a valid point to the people who are crazy right now. It has to come from the right wing politicians and media, and therein lies the problem.

He's not saying anything new. We've been saying it for months and months now. The problem is that nobody in that venue is listening or wants to speak up. If somebody like Michelle Malkin changed her mind and started making that point, that might carry some weight. I'm not waiting for it though. We all know that those kinds of people are making a fortune on the paranoid conspiracies they are spinning right now.

Yep. The people who so vociferously denounced the left's BDS now wallow gleefully in their own ODS... whether out of revenge or because it looked like so much fun, I can't say. Anyone center or right who agrees with Friedman will be immediately labeled a lefty.

Look what's happening to CJ...

55 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:20:44am

Sure enough -- as soon as a new topic goes up, someone pops in to the previous thread to defend Perry's article advocating a military coup.

56 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #50 drcordell

Of course I recognize the differences. I am commenting on the effects, not the root cause. The symptom of calling a President illegitimate (Bush because of so-called "fraud", Obama because of birth) and bemoaning the unavoidable advent of fascism, along with sub-rosa calls for revolution and assassination are all commonalities between the extreme right and left reactions to a hated President.

57 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:22:26am

I don't think Friedman qualifies as a ' nut job', but I do think he has a very inflated opinion of his insight into the problems of the ME, based on his jaunts and on-camera interviews with some ' real palestinians'. Every president has evil weirdos out to do him in, for one reason or another. The Facebook thing is awful, and I'm sure the SS will be all over it, as they should be. But Obama surely is much better protected than was Rabin during the Oslo talks, and you can bet that security will be ever higher when TOTUS talks to any foreign leaders, as it should be.
It almost sounds as if the MSM is trying to prepare the country for something happening to the president, which is despicable. Again, the Israeli public was reportedly in complete shock and surprise over the death of Rabin. I don't see that the scenarios are the same.

58 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Haven't been following them, so I won't venture a guess.

WRT to Virginia, odds are McDonnell will win, but Deeds keeps chipping away.

59 middy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:23:31am

re: #56 imp_62

Of course I recognize the differences. I am commenting on the effects, not the root cause. The symptom of calling a President illegitimate (Bush because of so-called "fraud", Obama because of birth) and bemoaning the unavoidable advent of fascism, along with sub-rosa calls for revolution and assassination are all commonalities between the extreme right and left reactions to a hated President.

I'm sure many of us agree with you, but it no way excuses the current craziness from the right wing.

60 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:23:58am

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Correct to a point. First of all, I point to my response to drcordell to emphasize that I was discussing actions, not causes. Second, Bush is hardly the first President to win the Electoral College vote and lose the popular vote.

61 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:24:18am

re: #50 drcordell

You do realize the difference between the two situations, yes? Obama was elected by a clearcut majority and an electoral college landslide. Bush lost the popular vote, and only gained the Presidency after a re-count of ballots in Florida was cut short by the Supreme Court in a contentious 5-4 split decision. The questions about the legitimacy of his Presidency were based on these facts.

None of these situations apply even remotely in Obama's case. That is the difference. And it is a huge one.

No, they don't, but the contentions regarding the recount of the Florida ballots were started by Gore's team. They filed a lawsuit to keep counting the ballots after the proscribed number of counts had been done. Bush's team then countersued. Then it went to the SCOTUS which ended this Gore-started nonsense.

People seem to forget that the popular vote means squat for the presidential election. It is only the electoral college vote that counts as the Framers designed it. This was so that the smaller states could be protected from the larger states in our federal union. Hence, a candidate could win the popular vote in states like California by a landslide, lose Texas by a close call, and lose the electoral college vote due to losing other needed states by close margins. Yet, he could win the popular vote.

62 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:25:04am

re: #57 tradewind

I don't think Friedman qualifies as a ' nut job', but I do think he has a very inflated opinion of his insight into the problems of the ME

Oh, definitely. He has a propensity to latch on to any Saudi "peace plan" that's mentioned to him by a Saudi prince on a Gulfstream flight, it seems.

(Actually, who am I kidding, Saudi princes don't use mere Gulfstreams... private 737, minimum.)

63 MJ  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:25:09am

Let's not forget that there was actually a movie made about the assassination of President Bush (Death of a President) so, while I'm pleased that the notion of civility in politics is back in vogue, it might have been just a wee bit less hypocritical had Friedman spoken out against that murder fantasy back then as well:

Tom Friedman Awakens to the Dangers of Incivility

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

64 ointmentfly  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:25:25am

re: #56 imp_62

Don't forget that the real reason the left went nuts about Bush had less to do with the election results and much more to do with him being the son of George HW Bush.

65 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:26:51am

re: #59 middy

There is no excuse for it. I hope no-one can misinterpret my comments as setting myself as an apologist for these lunatics. I am merely reacting to the implication that there is something new about the current atmosphere and the slobbering idiots who feed it and feed off of it. It is my belief that American democracy, in the long run, is far too strong to succumb to Birch/Beck/(other)McCain etc.

66 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:27:36am

re: #1 zeir

When I was a kid we were taught about the consequences of threatening the President; that the Secret Service would be on you. Now people don't seem to care...

Part of the problem is that they don't believe it, or think that the Internet offers enough anonymity to shield them from the Service's attention. Both are notions that need to be disabused by some high-profile interventions, in my opinion.

Word is out, by the way, that the Secret Service knows the identity of the idiot who posted the 0bama assassination poll on Facebook. I'm sure they'll be having a long, serious chat with him, if they haven't already. If it's an adult (questionable) I hope they make vast amounts of information available about their interview and the individual involved.

67 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:27:47am

Later.

68 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:28:36am

Sharmuta, if you're here check your email.

69 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:28:47am

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Oh, definitely. He has a propensity to latch on to any Saudi "peace plan" that's mentioned to him by a Saudi prince on a Gulfstream flight, it seems.

(Actually, who am I kidding, Saudi princes don't use mere Gulfstreams... private 737, minimum.)

Especially since the Saudi "peace" plan would require Israel to accept all the refugees, thereby becoming another Arab state. That does seem to be the only way the Arabs will accept the existence of Israel, as an Arab/Moslem state, not a Jewish one.

70 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:29:01am

re: #63 MJ

There are facebook groups advocating the killing of #43? Is this a rumor, or a fact?
How strange... I never saw a word in any print media or heard a thing about them. Although if true, not so strange that we didn't hear anything.
The movie was bad enough.

71 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:30:53am

Wow, I'm so in. Finally! Hey everyone.

I've been a reader since 2001. I've really had just bad luck and timing trying to get in. I like where this site has gone. Normal, sane people that provide truth to much of the mayhem that is going on these days.

Just a little background: I'm a 30-something female living in the great state of Colorado. I've voted on both sides of the spectrum. Registered Indy.

I ski pow.

BTW, Charles, love the Spy tool. Nothing better than sitting down to LGF right at dinnertime and reading posts in real-time. So cool.

That reminds me, I've got brisket in the slow cooker. 6 more hours to go. We are under a winter storm watch right now. Dinner will be perfect tonight!

Carry on!

72 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #48 Charles

Yes, I think it's quite a bit worse now. And I spent years covering the excesses of the left. I've never seen anything like what's happening on the right wing these days, and it's not just a few people. Some of this craziness is coming directly from GOP politicians and their advisers.

"Death panels" ring a bell? That didn't come from a fringe site like Alternet, it came from the GOP's candidate for vice president.

Sarah "Death Panel" Palin is a stooge, though. As far as I recall, the "death panel" concept was fed to her by Michele Bachman (I think).

73 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:32:07am

re: #71 Blizard

Wow, I'm so in. Finally! Hey everyone.

I've been a reader since 2001. I've really had just bad luck and timing trying to get in. I like where this site has gone. Normal, sane people that provide truth to much of the mayhem that is going on these days.

Just a little background: I'm a 30-something female living in the great state of Colorado. I've voted on both sides of the spectrum. Registered Indy.

I ski pow.

BTW, Charles, love the Spy tool. Nothing better than sitting down to LGF right at dinnertime and reading posts in real-time. So cool.

That reminds me, I've got brisket in the slow cooker. 6 more hours to go. We are under a winter storm watch right now. Dinner will be perfect tonight!

Carry on!

Welcome.

If you're gonna mention brisket here, I hope you brought enough to share.

74 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:32:22am

re: #71 Blizard

Welcome! I am finally not the newest of noobs.

75 MJ  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:32:23am

re: #71 Blizard

Wow, I'm so in. Finally! Hey everyone.

I've been a reader since 2001. I've really had just bad luck and timing trying to get in. I like where this site has gone. Normal, sane people that provide truth to much of the mayhem that is going on these days.

Just a little background: I'm a 30-something female living in the great state of Colorado. I've voted on both sides of the spectrum. Registered Indy.

I ski pow.

BTW, Charles, love the Spy tool. Nothing better than sitting down to LGF right at dinnertime and reading posts in real-time. So cool.

That reminds me, I've got brisket in the slow cooker. 6 more hours to go. We are under a winter storm watch right now. Dinner will be perfect tonight!

Carry on!

Welcome!

76 peterb  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:32:33am

What's odd about the recent round of extremism, to me, is that those promoting it don't seem to realize just how crazy it sounds. I don't care whether you're liberal or conservative, the minute you start talking about violent, armed insurrection in America as if it's a reasonable thing, you're a nutbar. And I think it's important for the moderates to be strident in pointing that out when it happens.

Regrettably, the only theory I can come up with with why this particular round seems to have such wide acceptance is that the nutbarism is getting a synergistic boost from people who harbor some degree of racism, and thus are already primed to believe any crazy thing about Obama, no matter how patently ridiculous it may be. I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, that's really depressing.

77 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:33:13am

re: #61 Honorary Yooper

No, they don't, but the contentions regarding the recount of the Florida ballots were started by Gore's team. They filed a lawsuit to keep counting the ballots after the proscribed number of counts had been done. Bush's team then countersued. Then it went to the SCOTUS which ended this Gore-started nonsense.

People seem to forget that the popular vote means squat for the presidential election. It is only the electoral college vote that counts as the Framers designed it. This was so that the smaller states could be protected from the larger states in our federal union. Hence, a candidate could win the popular vote in states like California by a landslide, lose Texas by a close call, and lose the electoral college vote due to losing other needed states by close margins. Yet, he could win the popular vote.

Of course Gore was the one who took the recount to court, he felt he had legitimately won the election. (A fact that was later confirmed by a full recount of all Florida ballots, but lets not get into that right now.) The point is, the 2000 election was so contentious because the President of the United States was ultimately chosen by a 5-4 decision of the Supreme Court. You can certainly understand how this would be a contentious issue, seeing as the Supreme Court is a non-elected body.

As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

78 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #71 Blizard

Welcome.

First rule HAS been that a hatching buys a round of drinks.
In your case, a bunch of us are on our way over for dinner!

79 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:35:19am

re: #71 Blizard

Wow, I'm so in. Finally! Hey everyone.

I've been a reader since 2001. I've really had just bad luck and timing trying to get in. I like where this site has gone. Normal, sane people that provide truth to much of the mayhem that is going on these days.

Just a little background: I'm a 30-something female living in the great state of Colorado. I've voted on both sides of the spectrum. Registered Indy.

I ski pow.

BTW, Charles, love the Spy tool. Nothing better than sitting down to LGF right at dinnertime and reading posts in real-time. So cool.

That reminds me, I've got brisket in the slow cooker. 6 more hours to go. We are under a winter storm watch right now. Dinner will be perfect tonight!

Carry on!

Welcome!

80 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:35:34am

re: #78 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Welcome.

First rule HAS been that a hatching buys a round of drinks.
In your case, a bunch of us are on our way over for dinner!

PIMF ... hatchling

81 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:35:36am

re: #73 SixDegrees

Welcome.

If you're gonna mention brisket here, I hope you brought enough to share.

That reminds me that I still want to make my own pastrami. It is so hard to find good pastrami these days.

82 middy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #77 drcordell

(A fact that was later confirmed by a full recount of all Florida ballots, but lets not get into that right now.)


Really?

But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.


Really!?

83 ointmentfly  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #65 imp_62

The political parties are after cheap, simple votes. I don't think anybody on this blog was wavering between Obama and McCain up until election day. They know we are not going to be easily swayed from one party to the other.

They are after the first time voters and those who buy the obvious bullshit put out by both parties. As long as the vote of somebody like Charles is the same as a white supremacist with a 4th grade education, we are in for this from the losing party between elections for a long time.

84 Locker  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:36:27am

re: #71 Blizard

Wow, I'm so in. Finally! Hey everyone.

I've been a reader since 2001. I've really had just bad luck and timing trying to get in. I like where this site has gone. Normal, sane people that provide truth to much of the mayhem that is going on these days.

Just a little background: I'm a 30-something female living in the great state of Colorado. I've voted on both sides of the spectrum. Registered Indy.

I ski pow.

BTW, Charles, love the Spy tool. Nothing better than sitting down to LGF right at dinnertime and reading posts in real-time. So cool.

That reminds me, I've got brisket in the slow cooker. 6 more hours to go. We are under a winter storm watch right now. Dinner will be perfect tonight!

Carry on!

Welcome to the neighborhood. Much good will may be earned by sharing some of that brisket.

85 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:36:54am

re: #71 Blizard

I ski pow.

Prisoner of war?

Welcome!

86 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:36:55am

re: #55 Charles

Sure enough -- as soon as a new topic goes up, someone pops in to the previous thread to defend Perry's article advocating a military coup.

Like nobodys' going to notice.
They're dumber than a box of rocks.

87 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:37:47am

On topic:

God help our country.

88 ointmentfly  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:37:54am

re: #77 drcordell

Exactly who confirmed that Gore won after a full recount? If I remember correctly, a few major papers finished the recounts and Gore lost.

89 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:38:30am

Michael Steele Calls Thomas Friedman A "Nut Job" For His Concerns Over Psychotic Rhetoric

"Where do these nut jobs come from? Come on, stop this...To make those equations, examples and put that out there that way, to me is just crazy and yeah, I'm sorry, but if you're going to approach this discussion, approach it from a rational position," Steele continued. "[They're] saying, because you disagree with the president on policy, that all of the sudden we're going to make this leap into, you know, assassinations and all this other stuff. I mean, at the height of all this stuff on Bush and people complaining and protesting, and jumping up and down, you didn't have this kind of conversation."

90 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:38:45am

re: #77 drcordell

Of course Gore was the one who took the recount to court, he felt he had legitimately won the election. (A fact that was later confirmed by a full recount of all Florida ballots, but lets not get into that right now.) The point is, the 2000 election was so contentious because the President of the United States was ultimately chosen by a 5-4 decision of the Supreme Court. You can certainly understand how this would be a contentious issue, seeing as the Supreme Court is a non-elected body.

As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

Excuse me, where and when was there any confirmation of a "full recount of all votes"? You have any proof to that besides a rightwing BS article?

91 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:38:58am

re: #76 peterb

What's odd about the recent round of extremism, to me, is that those promoting it don't seem to realize just how crazy it sounds. I don't care whether you're liberal or conservative, the minute you start talking about violent, armed insurrection in America as if it's a reasonable thing, you're a nutbar. And I think it's important for the moderates to be strident in pointing that out when it happens.

Regrettably, the only theory I can come up with with why this particular round seems to have such wide acceptance is that the nutbarism is getting a synergistic boost from people who harbor some degree of racism, and thus are already primed to believe any crazy thing about Obama, no matter how patently ridiculous it may be. I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, that's really depressing.

Some, at least, are not only fully aware of the crazy but are actively trying to generate it. They cite the "success" of acting like insane mouth-breathers on the Left, which practiced similar nonsense for much of the last eight years at every opportunity.

They skip over the 2006 midterms and 2008 elections, however, when the Democratic Party and Howard Dean finally wised up and kept the crazies as far from microphones, cameras and reporters as possible, after being hit over the head many times with the unpleasant connection between the prevalence of nutbars "supporting" your party in the news and the dismal losses suffered in 2002 and 2004.

92 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:38:58am

re: #76 peterb

What's odd about the recent round of extremism, to me, is that those promoting it don't seem to realize just how crazy it sounds. I don't care whether you're liberal or conservative, the minute you start talking about violent, armed insurrection in America as if it's a reasonable thing, you're a nutbar. And I think it's important for the moderates to be strident in pointing that out when it happens.

Regrettably, the only theory I can come up with with why this particular round seems to have such wide acceptance is that the nutbarism is getting a synergistic boost from people who harbor some degree of racism, and thus are already primed to believe any crazy thing about Obama, no matter how patently ridiculous it may be. I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, that's really depressing.

You're going to find that quite a few people very strongly resist the idea that racism has anything to do with this craziness.

But I agree with you.

93 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:39:04am

re: #83 ointmentfly

It is my firmly held belief that in a fundamentally sound democracy, even bad craziness like we are experiencing from the extreme right these days eventually burns itself out. Hunker down, have a brisket sandwich (courtesy of Blizard) and keep voting your conscience.

94 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:40:02am

Friedman's analogy is imperfect at best.

Rabin was assassinated in Dizengoff Square following a breakdown of security procedures in 1995 and a failure to understand the nature of the threat posed by the right wing extremists in Israel. Amir attempted a defense on religious grounds, but was convicted of the assassination of Rabin in any event.

Underestimating the threat posed by extremists is a bad idea for law enforcement and those charged with the President's security, but one also has to bear in mind significant differences between the Israel situation and that of the US in 2009. The Israelis were in the midst of giving massive concessions to create a Palestinian state on its borders, and the immediate and only response from the Palestinians was to launch an intifada. The Palestinians were busy killing Israelis, and Rabin's response was to hope that speeding the peace process could stop the violence. The right wingers were mostly those in the settlements in the West Bank that might have to be relocated to make the Palestinian state - a reverse ethnic cleansing to free the area of all Jews so that the Palestinians could be happy in their new state. Israel still had a collective memory of the relocation of Israelis from settlements in Sinai, and the West Bank had many more Israelis living there, and the connection between Israeli and the territory of the West Bank was far stronger - a religious and biblical connection.

These Israelis saw Rabin turning his back on the long-lasting ties to the territories, and the concessions made to date resulting in nothing but violence from the Palestinians who saw the concessions as weakness.

Here in the States, we're talking about policy differences on health care, economics, and a wide range of other subjects, but nothing nearly as earth shattering as giving up ancestral ties to a land always in the backs of the minds of all Jews. It should be more than enough to energize an opposition party to oust the Democrats in 2010, but not anywhere near the kind of crazy that we're seeing from the far right.

And with the far right pushing its agenda hard and fast, it's causing the rest of the GOP to lurch to the right, and it threatens the party's relevance going forward.

95 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:40:07am

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Michael Steele Calls Thomas Friedman A "Nut Job" For His Concerns Over Psychotic Rhetoric

And that's why it's just going to get worse.

96 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:40:10am

The lunacy on the right is getting even more tiresome than the lunacy on the left. I expected it from the left. This is just appalling since in my isolated mentality I just figured the right knew better...that's what I get for assuming.

And even though this may be a 'fringe', which in my minds eye it is getting a lot less likely by the minute, they seem to have commandeered the microphones / megaphones quite nicely.

97 jdog29  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #77 drcordell

Of course Gore was the one who took the recount to court, he felt he had legitimately won the election. (A fact that was later confirmed by a full recount of all Florida ballots, but lets not get into that right now.) The point is, the 2000 election was so contentious because the President of the United States was ultimately chosen by a 5-4 decision of the Supreme Court. You can certainly understand how this would be a contentious issue, seeing as the Supreme Court is a non-elected body.

As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

Anyone using the left's reaction to Bush as an excuse to promote or incite violence is just an idiot.

You know it's crazy when even Pat Buchanan agreed that many of the votes he received in Florida had been intended for Gore. He also said there was nothing to be done about it too.

Imagine how insane it would be in a close election if the electoral college didn't exist. National recount paloosa!!!

Vote for anarchy now, but only if a supermajority (2/3rds) agree ///

98 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:41:11am

re: #70 tradewind

When GWB was president, there were vehicles where I live with bumper stickers that said:

"Where is Lee Harvey 0sw@ld now that we need him?"

We have been on a downhill slide foe quite some time.

I hope it stops.

99 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #95 Charles

Glenn Beck and Rush are driving the bus.

100 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:41:59am

re: #77 drcordell


As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

I'm having trouble parsing this sentence, but both Hayes and Harrison won the electoral vote while losing the popular vote, in 1876 and 1888, respectively.

101 jvic  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:42:11am

re: #45 Honorary Yooper

The American political system was, as the saying goes, “designed by geniuses so it could be run by idiots.” But a cocktail of political and technological trends have converged in the last decade that are making it possible for the idiots of all political stripes to overwhelm and paralyze the genius of our system.

Those factors are: the wild excess of money in politics; the gerrymandering of political districts, making them permanently Republican or Democratic and erasing the political middle; a 24/7 cable news cycle that makes all politics a daily battle of tactics that overwhelm strategic thinking; and a blogosphere that at its best enriches our debates, adding new checks on the establishment, and at its worst coarsens our debates to a whole new level, giving a new power to anonymous slanderers to send lies around the world. Finally, on top of it all, we now have a permanent presidential campaign that encourages all partisanship, all the time among our leading politicians.

Well said, and very true.

I was nodding in approval until the clause about the blogosphere. Maybe that clause is tacit advocacy for the MSM. Or maybe it begins to hint that some kind of government oversight of the Internet is needed. (Benign oversight, of course. By the best and wisest people for the greater good. /)

(While I too have concerns about the blogosphere, Friedman brings to mind the saying that democracy is a bad form of government but the others are worse.)

102 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #92 Charles

You're going to find that quite a few people very strongly resist the idea that racism has anything to do with this craziness.

But I agree with you.

The most successful craziness always taps into some form of visceral hate. Racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Communism. That is why I don't think it is a service to the more thoughtful parts of society to call the current extremist frothing "craziness". There is definitely a method to this madness, and an organizing principle to the messages of the media attack dogs of the far right.

103 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #95 Charles

And that's why it's just going to get worse.

It not like people are showing up to political rallies with guns or anything right? Oh wait...

104 Chekote  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:43:34am

Where was Friedman when a movie was made about the assassination of George Bush?

105 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #95 Charles

And that's why it's just going to get worse.

Brilliant.

I'm going to go sniff paint for a while now.

106 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:43:58am

Yooper, if you're still here check your inbox.

107 Gus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:44:31am

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Michael Steele Calls Thomas Friedman A "Nut Job" For His Concerns Over Psychotic Rhetoric

A flippant response from the RNC "leader" that had to apologize to Rush Limbaugh early this year:

Assassinations and all this other stuff.

Right, just assassinations and all this other stuff. Right Mr. Steele, just stuff. And he never addressed nor will he ever address the other extremist rhetoric at this point.

108 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:44:35am

Words find their actors.

Becket ...

109 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:44:59am

re: #98 Ojoe

I believe you.
As long as we live in a free society, there will always be mentally ill creeps who want their name to go down as the hero who liberated America from the tyranny of ___(fill in the president).
It's just that the actions of some nut cases are reported more gleefully than others, depending on the administration. Don't ever think that the 24-hour news cycle doesn't look forward to any catastrophe, no matter where it comes from. They feed off of it. But they really, really hope the next 'Oh No 'They DIdn't 'comes from the right. Their editing will be so much simpler...

110 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:45:14am

I don't know if anyone has read this:

The Ominous Parallels - Leonard Peikoff

While some may be turned off from the Ayn Rand connection, I think this is a very good study on how America could go down the same dark path as Germany.

It is available on Kindle as well.

111 MPH  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:45:26am

I'd appreciate Friedman's critique more (because it is substantially true in this case), if he didn't spend the last five years or so metamorphosing grandiose conspiratorial ideas absorbed by the far left. Since 2005, Friedman has consistently been fueling the idea that the George Bush administration was all about "We're at war. Let's party." His attacks were consistently unfair and divisive in a time where sanity needed to prevail. At the end of the day, Thomas Friedman is still a hack.

112 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:46:14am

Crap.

Senators turn back ID requirement for immigrant healthcare

A party-line vote. But remember, illegals aren't covered under the legislation *wink*.

113 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:46:59am

Wow!

I have been lurking here for years and just now registered!

[I was banned last week - my damned flounce only lasted 12.23 seconds even though I posted it on a dead thread at 2 am]

There sure are a lot of people here that I have wanted to "meet".

[Vengeance will be mine! Especially that Killgore guy!]

I sure am looking forward to plenty of interesting conversations.

[Come on Charles - give me an Evolution thread! Or a Climate Change thread!]

/

114 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:47:08am

re: #109 tradewind

I didn't call the Secret Service then, maybe I should have; I would now if I saw a similar sticker.

115 Mournie  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:48:28am

I thought the left loons after Bush were worse than what's out there now on the right. The right hasn't grasped the verge of lunatic like they did.

116 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:48:29am

re: #77 drcordell

As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

Not quite accurate, Cordell. Bush was far from the first president not to win the popular vote.

I'll start with the extremely contentious election of 1824. Jackson got the popular vote in a plurality, but lost to Adams in a very messy deal (makes Bush v. Gore look nice).
Then here's the election of 1876. Tilden won the popular vote outright, but lost the electoral vote to Hayes by one vote. Apparently a very stinky informal deal was made regarding one Oregon elector.
It also happened again in the election of 1888. Cleveland got the popular vote, but Harrison won the electoral vote.
The election of 2000 was the fourth time this happened, and the third time it happened when there were only two candidates splitting up the electoral vote.

117 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:48:38am

re: #113 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

And coming out of chute number nine, on a bull named Thunderbolt...
///only gotta hold on to the rope for what, nine seconds?

118 MPH  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:48:43am

re: #110 Dreader1962

FYI - That book was written in 1983.

119 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:48:56am

re: #94 lawhawk

Friedman's analogy is imperfect at best.

At worst, he is demonizing an entire population of Jews and Israelis, the same ones who don't applaud his "Saudi Peace Plan."

120 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:01am

re: #88 ointmentfly

Exactly who confirmed that Gore won after a full recount? If I remember correctly, a few major papers finished the recounts and Gore lost.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The recount conducted by a consortium of various media outlets drew several conclusions. In all of the full and complete recounts, Gore was considered to be the victor. His margin of victory ranged anywhere from 171 to 60 based on what standard of intent was applied to ballots with dented chads, hanging chads and the like.

However, if a partialrecount was conducted using the standards that Gore pushed for in his lawsuit, Bush would have been considered the victor.

So, yes Bush could be considered the "victor" because if Gore had won his case, the partial recount would have confirmed his victory. However, the true complete recount found that Gore had indeed received more votes cast for him on election day.

121 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:11am

re: #113 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

Are you "That's Glen Beck to you?"

122 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:36am

re: #113 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

heh ... 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...

123 CJDate  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:43am

re: #70 tradewind

There are dozens of such groups. Check for yourself:

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=kill+bush&init=quick

124 ointmentfly  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:46am

re: #93 imp_62

No worries about me, but I think intelligent voters are becoming more and more irrelevant and as the parties have distanced themselves ideologically from each other, these votes are unlikely to change. The political parties have figured out that instead of trying to change minds, they simply need to find a new stack of wood (votes) somewhere. This is what has fueled the extremism on both sides.

125 shutdown  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:49:50am

re: #117 tradewind

And coming out of chute number nine, on a bull named Thunderbolt...
///only gotta hold on to the rope for what, nine seconds?

rofl

126 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:50:29am

re: #117 tradewind

And coming out of chute number nine, on a bull named Thunderbolt...
///only gotta hold on to the rope for what, nine seconds?


8...but who's counting...

127 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:50:48am

re: #121 EmmmieG

Are you "That's Glen Beck to you?"

Moi?

[Yes]

128 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:50:52am

re: #116 Honorary Yooper

Not quite accurate, Cordell. Bush was far from the first president not to win the popular vote.

I'll start with the extremely contentious election of 1824. Jackson got the popular vote in a plurality, but lost to Adams in a very messy deal (makes Bush v. Gore look nice).
Then here's the election of 1876. Tilden won the popular vote outright, but lost the electoral vote to Hayes by one vote. Apparently a very stinky informal deal was made regarding one Oregon elector.
It also happened again in the election of 1888. Cleveland got the popular vote, but Harrison won the electoral vote.
The election of 2000 was the fourth time this happened, and the third time it happened when there were only two candidates splitting up the electoral vote.

Ah, how stupid of me to have made that claim then. My apologies for being misinformed.

129 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:50:53am

re: #123 CJDate

Thanks, I'll take your word/link for it. I'm just paranoid enough not to want to even go there...
:)

130 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:50:57am

re: #106 Irish Rose

Yooper, if you're still here check your inbox.

Did so, will do so again.

131 Haole  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:04am

Is it open registration all the time now?

132 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:11am

I'll say it again:

There is nothing in the Constitution that forbids European-style social democracy ("socialism", for those of you who prefer scary words in scare quotes) in this country.

Claiming that Obama is doing nefarious things to forever change the face of America and declaring a state of emergency based on that is nonsense, and potentially treasonous.

re: #48 Charles

Yes, I think it's quite a bit worse now. And I spent years covering the excesses of the left. I've never seen anything like what's happening on the right wing these days, and it's not just a few people. Some of this craziness is coming directly from GOP politicians and their advisers.

"Death panels" ring a bell? That didn't come from a fringe site like Alternet, it came from the GOP's candidate for vice president.

Yes, it is far worse now.

And I'll say this again:

Palin shamelessly used her son's Down Syndrome as a fear-mongering tactic in her mendacious smear campaign, implying that he would be treated like the disabled people killed under the Nazis.

She might as well be marching around at tea parties with an Obama-in-a-Hitler-mustache poster.

133 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:21am

Juvenile ego is written all over that one

134 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:35am

re: #125 imp_62

I do love a rodeo .

135 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:41am

Folks - it is an homage ...
[Yes - these people are obsessive and crazy - why not have one for the purpose of mocking?]

136 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:51:50am

re: #127 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

Moi?

[Yes]

I kinda remembered you saying you were going to do this. Looking forward to see what you can come up with.

137 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:52:17am

re: #117 tradewind

And coming out of chute number nine, on a bull named Thunderbolt...
///only gotta hold on to the rope for what, nine seconds?

He had a sarc tag, give it a few minutes.

138 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:52:33am

*yawn*

139 Gus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:52:56am

Here comes "the left did it" meme.

140 Dreader1962  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:53:26am

re: #118 MPH

FYI - That book was written in 1983.

Yes, I know. While it doesn't cite the current trend, I think it is useful to shake the belief that we are somehow 'immune' from the descent into fascism. Again, there are many arguments against the root cause (in this case, Peikoff addresses the philosophical underpinnings in the case of Germany). What is more useful for today is the hypothetical occurrence in America, in which he postulates a demagogue seizing the stage along with a targeted group to blame for the troubles.

Have you read the book?

141 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:53:33am

re: #139 Gus 802

It is all bad.

142 J.S.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:53:43am

Don't worry! The Fusion Centers will take care of it...(Gerri Willis just filed a report on CNN regarding the "Fusion Centers"...apparently, each state has one? All Right...although the ACLU doesn't particularly care for The Fusion Centers...)

143 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:53:53am

re: #132 Cato the Elder

At least you're not saying that Trig's really one of her grandchildren, congratulations!

144 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:54:00am

re: #132 Cato the Elder

She might as well be marching around at tea parties with an Obama-in-a-Hitler-mustache poster.

[I've been waiting for an opening for that one.]

145 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:54:30am

re: #137 avanti

Guess you missed mine?///

146 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #143 tradewind

At least you're not saying that Trig's really one of her grandchildren, congratulations!

Why would I repeat nonsense? I have no more respect for that crap than I do for nirtherism.

147 Gus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:55:48am

re: #141 Ojoe

It is all bad.

Yes. I think it will be in error for the GOP to ignore it. Michael Steele's response was inadequate as noted above. Merely pointing out what the left did will not change a thing nor will it justify what has been pointed out countless times in articles here at Little Green Footballs.

148 Chekote  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:55:56am

Friedman is a hack. Also, I find it ironic that the same people who told that that Obama's association with racist, anti-semite Wright was just a "distraction" are now having a cow about the racists signs at tea parties.

149 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:55:59am

BTW - What does passive aggressive mean?

[When will there be a new thread so me and my cohorts can post what we really think of Tom Friedman?]

150 Lola  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:56:11am

Friedman wrote: "They questioned his authority. They accused him of treason. They created pictures depicting him as a Nazi SS officer, and they shouted death threats at rallies. His political opponents winked at it all."

The "kill the president" meme gained prominence during W's presidency, when Friedman first should have invoked the description above. The sentiment was low and foul then, and is low and foul now. Could one important difference be the quasi-erotic charge BO's defenders have gotten--since he became a nominee--from the prospect of a BO assassination? Might explain why TF wrote the passage above now, and not in 2006.

151 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:57:51am

Friedman wrote: "[Yitzhak's] political opponents winked at it all."

And Michael Steele is actually reinforcing this point, by lashing out at Friedman instead of acknowledging the existence of the problem.

152 Haole  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:57:52am

Did anyone see Becks footage last night comparing the 912 march with the G20?

153 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:57:57am

re: #137 avanti

He had a sarc tag, give it a few minutes.

Wierd thought popped up when I saw your comment, probably subliminally associated with your avatar (and yes, I'd seen that troll's sarc tag up-thread).

Visualize Nagumo having sarc slashes painted upon his carriers' flight decks before the Battle of Midway. It could've changed the course of history!

/ < --- yeah ... :D

154 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:03am

re: #34 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do you also see moraine in the forecast?

Up-dinged you for Moaraine reference. Just went hiking in some Moraines (and Kettles).

155 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:18am

re: #152 Haole

Did anyone see Becks footage last night comparing the 912 march with the G20?

Apparently, you did.

156 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:31am

re: #145 tradewind

Guess you missed mine?///

Did I ? ///

157 Lee Coller  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:34am

re: #152 Haole

Did anyone see Becks footage last night comparing the 912 march with the G20?

No, was he for it or against it?

158 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:46am

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They make a big deal about leaving and then try to sneak back in.

I fart in their general direction.

and they just flit around like a fart in a bottle.

159 researchok  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:58:49am

When the left vilified Bush, et al, it was an extreme response (heroic, even), by their own admission.

Now, threats to Obama are more often than not regarded as reasonable and mainstream.

160 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:59:10am

re: #150 Lola

Could one important difference be the quasi-erotic charge BO's defenders have gotten--since he became a nominee--from the prospect of a BO assassination?

What. The. Hell.

161 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:59:24am

re: #146 Cato the Elder

It was an oft-repeated theme from the Palin-haters during the campaign. They had extremely detailed explanations for why she could not possibly have given birth to the child herself.

162 Chekote  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:59:50am

I do wish we could take this opportunity to stop this over the top Hitler rhetoric once and for all for everybody. I wish we had statesmens from both parties stand up and say "Enough!" to their respective constituencies. Alas, we don't.

163 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:59:57am

re: #69 Kosh's Shadow

Especially since the Saudi "peace" plan would require Israel to accept all the refugees, thereby becoming another Arab state. That does seem to be the only way the Arabs will accept the existence of Israel, as an Arab/Moslem state, not a Jewish one.

I don't think Friedman advocates for the right of return. Its in the Saudi Plan, which of course he supported (supports?) but has he maintained that this element must be kept? Here's a quote that seems to indicate his ambivalence. Maybe there's something I missed, but it doesn't seem like something for which Friedman would advocate.

And [Abdullah] might add that whatever deal the Palestinians cut with Israel regarding return of refugees or land swaps — so some settlements might stay in the West Bank in return for the Palestinians getting pieces of Israel — the Arab world would support.

[Link: select.nytimes.com...]

164 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:00:16pm

re: #149 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

Who are you and how did you get permission to go on this field trip///

165 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:01:15pm

re: #164 tradewind

Who are you and how did you get permission to go on this field trip///

Checking hall passes?

166 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:01:25pm

re: #161 tradewind

It was an oft-repeated theme from the Palin-haters during the campaign. They had extremely detailed explanations for why she could not possibly have given birth to the child herself.

And you bring that up in relation to my post why, exactly?

167 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:01:36pm

re: #152 Haole

Did anyone see Becks footage last night comparing the 912 march with the G20?

Yes, stupid comparison to the extreme and he even got in his one million 912 estimate yet again.

168 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:01:40pm

re: #77 drcordell

Of course Gore was the one who took the recount to court, he felt he had legitimately won the election. (A fact that was later confirmed by a full recount of all Florida ballots, but lets not get into that right now.) The point is, the 2000 election was so contentious because the President of the United States was ultimately chosen by a 5-4 decision of the Supreme Court. You can certainly understand how this would be a contentious issue, seeing as the Supreme Court is a non-elected body.

As far as the popular vote, I understand it is technically irrelevant. But the fact that Bush was the first President to not have also won the popular vote in addition to the electoral college certainly didn't help.

BS Every recount showed Bush would have won the state had all counties been recounted.

169 ointmentfly  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:01:55pm

re: #150 Lola

...and how much of the current extremism on the right is a result of the salivating by the left wing press over the mere thought of an Obama presidency and its current ignorance of anything critical of Obama. With an impartial MSM, there is no Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck and the new senator from Minnesota might still be safely locked away in a radio studio...

170 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:02:16pm

re: #150 Lola

Huh?
What... Obama supporters are closet necrophiliacs?
Explain please.

171 sagehen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #120 drcordell

So, yes Bush could be considered the "victor" because if Gore had won his case, the partial recount would have confirmed his victory. However, the true complete recount found that Gore had indeed received more votes cast for him on election day.

The anger over the unfinished recount doesn't even begin the touch the anger over the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters from Katherine Harris' purging of the rolls. All "regrettable errors" of course, she didn't "intend" to drastically reduce the number of voters in low-income and minority districts that trend heavily Democrat.

172 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:02:49pm

re: #161 tradewind

It was an oft-repeated theme from the Palin-haters during the campaign. They had extremely detailed explanations for why she could not possibly have given birth to the child herself.

Well, "extremely detailed" in the sense that most of them could have been prefaced with the statement, "Dude! You wouldn't believe what it's like to mix meth, acid, peyote and 8 shots of straight espresso all at once!"

173 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:02:57pm

In case anyone missed Obama at the UN:
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

174 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:03:16pm

The situations are nothing alike.

175 Mr. E. Train  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:03:31pm

lve lived long enough to see political derangment syndrome happen in both parties. The problem is how do you engender passion (which you need to win) without slipping into DS? Maybe that this is just the way it is now.

176 doubter4444  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:03:54pm

re: #37 imp_62

Is the current atmosphere really all that different than the one that obtained during the Bush administration following the disputed election? The left bayed themselves into a frenzy, calling the President illegitimate and putting the word "President" in quotation marks. Perhaps many here are more sensitive to the current situation because it has pitted former friends and allies of the right and center-right against one another. Consider that Charles is finding himself the target of sites that used to gladly link and quote LGF.

It always hurts more when your friends succumb to the latest political conspiracy theories, especially when they are disturbing as "Birtherism" and "Sekrit Muslim-ism".

That sounds like rationalization to me, again, it's "the left did it too!" response.
I don't think it was any where near this scary and and it's getting ratcheted up daily.
Friedman addresses this too, as he mentions the de-legitimacy of Bush 2, as the start of the process. But this is way stronger, way worse.

177 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:01pm

re: #168 filetandrelease

Not to mention had every county continued to vote. The N Fl counties in the central time zones were treated to NBC's calling the election for Gore, and there was an hour left to vote. I know for a fact that people from Pensacola and Ft Walton left the polls in disgust.

178 jvic  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:07pm

re: #120 drcordell

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The recount conducted by a consortium of various media outlets drew several conclusions. In all of the full and complete recounts, Gore was considered to be the victor. His margin of victory ranged anywhere from 171 to 60 based on what standard of intent was applied to ballots with dented chads, hanging chads and the like.

However, if a partialrecount was conducted using the standards that Gore pushed for in his lawsuit, Bush would have been considered the victor.

IMHO a complete recount would have been harder to deny than a partial recount: both in the courts and in the court of public opinion.

Rather than doing the right thing and calling for a full recount, Gore tried to restrict a recount to (apparently) favorable ground, and it cost him the Presidency (assuming a full recount was done).

Despite my low opinion of Bush, I have no sympathy whatever for Gore.

Too clever by half. Hoist by his own petard.

Serves him right.
*** *** ***
Logged in to upding #26, and as usual got swept in by the current. Later.

179 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:20pm

re: #163 Flyers1974

I don't think Friedman advocates for the right of return. Its in the Saudi Plan, which of course he supported (supports?) but has he maintained that this element must be kept? Here's a quote that seems to indicate his ambivalence. Maybe there's something I missed, but it doesn't seem like something for which Friedman would advocate.

And [Abdullah] might add that whatever deal the Palestinians cut with Israel regarding return of refugees or land swaps — so some settlements might stay in the West Bank in return for the Palestinians getting pieces of Israel — the Arab world would support.

[Link: select.nytimes.com...]

The "Geneva Peace Initiative" (which no one ever mentions any more) insisted that the Palestinians were ready to give up the "Right of Return." It is a prominent feature in the "Saudi Peace Initiative Terms of Surrender" which is the reason why the Saudi plan is a non starter for Israel.

180 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #171 sagehen

[Yawn] How did all the lawsuits filed over that turn out?

181 Right Brain  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #10 PatriotLizardoid

Charles you did a wonderful job exposing the dangerous craziness of the far left when George Bush was in office. I can still go to Zombie's blog and see a lot of the 'assassination chic' that was all too common place at their demonstrations, and a lot of the revolting anti-Israel / antisemitic artwork that went with it.

You are also doing a fine job of exposing dangerous craziness of the far right. Keep it up. Discourse like this should be frowned upon (and shunned) by true conservative leaders.

Exactly. PL saved me having to write those same words.

182 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:04:54pm

re: #172 SixDegrees

More like ' well wow, she didn't really show, did she...'
It was teh stupid. And why?

183 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:01pm

bbl

184 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:19pm

This is the worst thing Tom Friedman can muster to say about his Chimpy McBushitler pals:

George W. Bush was elected under a cloud because of the Florida voting mess, and his critics on the left never let him forget it.

And it's funny that Friedman is whining about "delegitimizing" presidents from Clinton to Obama when he himself was trying to delegitimize Bush's win in 2000 before the Florida recount was over:

If Mr. Bush wins the post-election, it will be, in part, because he reverted to his true self, and his party to its true self, after a campaign in which they persuaded voters that they had become a kinder, gentler, more inclusive G.O.P. If Al Gore loses the post- election, it will be, in part, because he was never himself during the real election, but rather somebody else every week. Therefore he could never ignite the enthusiasm of America's young, or his own party, so he had to personally solicit supporters for his post-election campaign.

During the G.O.P. convention in Philadelphia we were treated to the view of a Republican Party that had become less white, less elitist, more multiracial, led by a Texas governor who promised to be a uniter, not a divider, and who would distance himself from the mean-spiritedness of the Newt Gingrich/Tom DeLay era.

During the post-election, however, we have seen a Republican Party dominated by elderly elite white men and women, who will delegitimize any court, any judge and any ruling that stands in the way of Mr. Bush's presumed right to govern. The Bush aides will question the patriotism of anyone who raises doubts about confusing military ballots, but they evince no concern for blacks, Jews and Hispanics who wrongly voted for Pat Buchanan, or no one, because of their confusing ballots. So much for the Spirit of Philadelphia.

The Republican strategy has been consistent. Every Florida official, judge and canvassing board has been given a choice: Either rule for Governor Bush or be labeled as illegitimate. When the Florida Supreme Court ruled in favor of Mr. Bush that Miami-Dade County did not have to hand-recount, Republicans praised that court for acting responsibly, and when the same court ruled in Al Gore's favor, it was branded as a Democratic rubber stamp. When pro-Bush Florida officials tilt decisions his way, the G.O.P. says they're just following the law. When pro-Gore county election boards tilt decisions his way, they're accused by the Bush team of hijacking the election.

This is conservatism without compassion, and it's precisely the sort of nastiness that Americans came to detest about the Republicans during the government shutdown and impeachment trial, which forced the G.O.P. to draft a kinder, gentler candidate. So much for that. Any party that is ready to win this way will, in the crunch, rule this way.

Mr. Gore's problem is slightly different. While Mr. Bush has no problem summoning a mob to do his bidding, Mr. Gore would have to rent one.

[Link: www.redrat.net...]

185 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #111 MPH

I'd appreciate Friedman's critique more (because it is substantially true in this case), if he didn't spend the last five years or so metamorphosing grandiose conspiratorial ideas absorbed by the far left. Since 2005, Friedman has consistently been fueling the idea that the George Bush administration was all about "We're at war. Let's party." His attacks were consistently unfair and divisive in a time where sanity needed to prevail. At the end of the day, Thomas Friedman is still a hack.

Which conspiratorial ideas do you mean? Friedman supported the Iraq War and the Afghanistan War. He objected to how Bush handled the occupation - he stated that Bush did a great job af handling the war but was a poor nation-builder. What ideas did he have that were unfair?

186 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:33pm

Greetings Lizzards!

First time post by new hatchling here; had registered a few weeks ago but never confirmed due to stupidly not turning off Spam filter. (If Charles hadn't mentioned that registration was open in the last thread, I would never have checked to see that I in fact had cleared the first hurdle.) Am thinking of all the threads I have read recently but couldn't post to...grrr!

PS- Thank you Charles for creating and nurturing this online forum.

187 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:38pm

re: #163 Flyers1974

I don't think Friedman advocates for the right of return. Its in the Saudi Plan, which of course he supported (supports?) but has he maintained that this element must be kept? Here's a quote that seems to indicate his ambivalence. Maybe there's something I missed, but it doesn't seem like something for which Friedman would advocate.

And [Abdullah] might add that whatever deal the Palestinians cut with Israel regarding return of refugees or land swaps — so some settlements might stay in the West Bank in return for the Palestinians getting pieces of Israel — the Arab world would support.

[Link: select.nytimes.com...]

He might not advocate for the Arabs' return, but the Saudi "peace" plan has that slightly disguised within it, which is why no Israeli administration will accept it as anything more than a starting point for negotiation, and why the Saudis insist the Israelis accept it unconditionally.
Item 1 in the plan refers to UN resolutions that REQUIRE any entity to accept refugees from that area who want to return.
Item 4 in the plan says "Any Palestinian repatriation must take into account the special circumstances of the Arab nations." Translation - the Arabs aren't taking them.

If Friedman doesn't understand that, he either is an idiot or looking at it through such rose colored glasses that they are opaque.

188 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:05:51pm

Looks like some people really don't want to see the problem.

189 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:06:04pm
190 Lord Blankfiend  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:07:03pm

Wow, I can't believe I was able to register. I feel like the ugly girl at the prom who was asked to dance by Colt Brennan (the dreamiest guy on the Football team.) I missed Sunday's open registration by mere MINUTES. I just took a stab at it today because I saw a comment about somebody trying to "sneak back in", so I thought, "Well, let me just give it a try..." And - HOLY SHIT! - it worked. I then proceeded to relentlessly, obsessively refresh my in-box every 15 seconds, waiting for the confirmation email. After 10 minutes or so I thought I had been the victim of a cruel, cruel hoax. And then, right there in my spam folder... there it was. And here I am. At long last. I've been trying to register @ LGF for what seems like an eternity. Hope I don't get booted after a week.

And so but anyway, Charles - Big Fan. Truly appreciate and enjoy the work you're doing here. Although I am what you would probably consider a left-wing nut job (socially, anyway) I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of the views expressed herein, both on the posts and the threads. I try to balance out my equilibrium by reading your's and Bob Cesca's blog daily.

I'll try my best not to make an ass of myself.

191 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:07:41pm

Dennis Hopper rushed to hospital

ET breaks news that acting legend Dennis Hopper has been rushed to a New York hospital.

Sources tell ET that the actor was brought in by ambulance to the emergency room at a Manhattan hospital, wearing an oxygen mask and with numerous tubes visible.

192 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:08:00pm

re: #190 Lord Blankfiend

Then why did you just register a second account, even though the rules on the register page make it very clear that this will cause both your accounts to be blocked?

193 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:08:16pm

re: #168 filetandrelease

BS Every recount showed Bush would have won the state had all counties been recounted.

No. Go read your own link.

George W. Bush would have won a hand count of Florida's disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, the first full study of the ballots reveals.

The standard Al Gore advocated for was not a full recount. If every ballot in every county had been recounted, Gore would have won.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

194 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:08:17pm

re: #188 Charles

Looks like some people really don't want to see the problem.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem (if your comment was referring to my comment), I just don't agree with the analogy.

195 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:08:28pm

re: #166 Cato the Elder
Oh, stop. Everyone knows how much you dislike Sarah Palin... I'm just glad to see you haven't signed on to that sorry fiction.
That
Is
All.

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:08:31pm

Oh hatchlings, little hatchlings,?
But answer came there none,

And this was scarcely odd because
They'd eaten every one...

*Just kidding*

197 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #171 sagehen

The anger over the unfinished recount doesn't even begin the touch the anger over the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters from Katherine Harris' purging of the rolls. All "regrettable errors" of course, she didn't "intend" to drastically reduce the number of voters in low-income and minority districts that trend heavily Democrat.

Umm, it was 8000. And it happened when a private company was purging felons from the rolls of registered votes. They accidentally purged 8000 convicted of misdemeanors. Many were also Republican, though most were Democrat.

198 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:09:27pm
199 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:09:38pm

re: #179 Alouette

The "Geneva Peace Initiative" (which no one ever mentions any more) insisted that the Palestinians were ready to give up the "Right of Return." It is a prominent feature in the "Saudi Peace Initiative Terms of Surrender" which is the reason why the Saudi plan is a non starter for Israel.

I agree that it is a non-starter. Has he ever maintained that any particular plan must stay as presented? I just don't ever remember him advocating for the right of return. In theory, if the plan was otherwise acceptable (which I don't think it is) to all involved, they can ditch the right of return.

200 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:10pm

You may recall my post about Nate Silver accusing the pollster Strategic Vision of fraud in their recent poll commissioned by a conservative group that showed many students could not name the first President.
Nate is now calling their bluff and betting money to a charity that the poll was made up. This could get interesting.

poll.

201 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #177 tradewind

Not to mention had every county continued to vote. The N Fl counties in the central time zones were treated to NBC's calling the election for Gore, and there was an hour left to vote. I know for a fact that people from Pensacola and Ft Walton left the polls in disgust.

You can't let the facts get in the way of a little righteous anger.

202 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:34pm

Busted

203 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #149 That's Banned Sockpuppet [With Turrets] to you

BTW - What does passive aggressive mean?

[When will there be a new thread so me and my cohorts can post what we really think of Tom Friedman?]


Apparently, this IS your first rodeo.

/

204 Chekote  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:44pm

It is quite clear that you have segments on both the Left and the Right who just can't handle Obama's race. On the Right, you have people who can't stand the thought of a black man as POTUS. On the Left, you have people who see racism every time someone opposes Obama. We are in deep chit!

205 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:10:54pm

I didn't announce open registration, but so far we have 30 new users -- of which 9 were sock puppets.

One person has tried to register three times.

206 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:11:10pm

re: #199 Flyers1974

I agree that it is a non-starter. Has he ever maintained that any particular plan must stay as presented? I just don't ever remember him advocating for the right of return. In theory, if the plan was otherwise acceptable (which I don't think it is) to all involved, they can ditch the right of return.

I don't know about Friedman, but the Saudis have insisted their plan be accepted unconditionally before they'll talk to the Israelis.
This has occurred repeatedly, when Israel says the plan is a good starting point for negotiations.
That tells me the Saudis want to get rid of Israel, and it isn't a real peace plan.

207 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:11:36pm

re: #192 Charles

Because he was an idiot?

208 sagehen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:11:39pm

re: #161 tradewind

It was an oft-repeated theme from the Palin-haters during the campaign. They had extremely detailed explanations for why she could not possibly have given birth to the child herself.


That was actually the rumor around Wasilla for six months before she even got the nomination, due to Bristol leaving school for the entire winter and being shipped off to some cousin in another town. It wasn't something bloggers spontaneously came up with after she joined the ticket.

Once Bristol's actual pregnancy was announced, people who can add and subtract single digit numbers realized that theory didn't hold up; after which Andrew Sullivan was the only one who wouldn't let it go. Hey, all he's asking for is to see a birth certificate -- surely the far right thinks that's reasonable.

/

209 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:12:23pm

re: #205 Charles

9/30 = 30%
Double from yesterday's 15.5%

210 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:13:48pm
211 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:14:35pm

re: #187 Kosh's Shadow

He might not advocate for the Arabs' return, but the Saudi "peace" plan has that slightly disguised within it, which is why no Israeli administration will accept it as anything more than a starting point for negotiation, and why the Saudis insist the Israelis accept it unconditionally.Item 1 in the plan refers to UN resolutions that REQUIRE any entity to accept refugees from that area who want to return.
Item 4 in the plan says "Any Palestinian repatriation must take into account the special circumstances of the Arab nations." Translation - the Arabs aren't taking them.

If Friedman doesn't understand that, he either is an idiot or looking at it through such rose colored glasses that they are opaque.

I agree 100%. However, as I said in 199 above, if the plan were otherwise acceptable, this could be eliminated. It seems to me, this alone wouldn't be the sticking point for the Arabs.

212 badger1970  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:14:59pm

re: #175 Mr. E. Train

The very nature of politics is emotion. The winner gets to dictate to the loser how their lives (actually monies) get spent and wasted. To the victor, the spoils, pisses off a lot of people.

How obama isn't sweeping up with a majority in both houses is a testament to his leadership abilities. The GOP needs to seize upon it and drive that point home without getting into adolescence name-calling and threats. As a side note, it's amazing how all these lefty opinionists are all of a sudden calling out the GOP's hypocrisy whereas they've been silent like church mice during the BUsh-bashing.

213 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:15:47pm

re: #193 drcordell

The standard Al Gore advocated for was not a full recount. If every ballot in every county had been recounted, Gore would have won.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Read further

USA TODAY, The Miami Herald and Knight Ridder newspapers hired the national accounting firm BDO Seidman to examine undervote ballots in Florida's 67 counties. The accountants provided a report on what they found on each of the ballots.

I am sorry Doc, but Wekipidia, as a real source? Now that is precious.

214 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:16:01pm

re: #211 Flyers1974

I agree 100%. However, as I said in 199 above, if the plan were otherwise acceptable, this could be eliminated. It seems to me, this alone wouldn't be the sticking point for the Arabs.

And my point is, it IS a sticking point for the Arabs (the entire Arab League); the Saudis won't talk to Israel unless they accept it.

215 Hawaii69  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:16:01pm

re: #63 MJ

Let's not forget that there was actually a movie made about the assassination of President Bush (Death of a President) so, while I'm pleased that the notion of civility in politics is back in vogue, it might have been just a wee bit less hypocritical had Friedman spoken out against that murder fantasy back then as well:

Tom Friedman Awakens to the Dangers of Incivility

[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

"Death of a President" was a British film.

216 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:16:09pm

re: #190 Lord Blankfiend

Wow. Just here and Bob Cesca, huh?
That's... interesting.

217 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:17:07pm
218 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:17:09pm

re: #213 filetandrelease
Yes. ' Scuse me while I run to Wiki and hit them with the clue stick...
///
What a pain it is to keep editing that joint...

219 Fart Knocker  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:18:01pm

re: #33 SpaceJesus

can't you just IP ban them

Obviously you'll be a lousy re-founcer!
//

220 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:18:40pm

New earthquake Peru 6.3

221 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:19:14pm

BBIAW. Have to go shopping for dinner. (Chicken and Dumplings)

222 drcordell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:19:25pm

re: #213 filetandrelease

I am sorry Doc, but Wekipidia, as a real source? Now that is precious.

The sourcing is right there on the page, Wikipedia just laid it out in plain graph form that's easy to read. Here is the link to the underlying source.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

I'm not interesting in getting into any further scuffles about this. It's really, really futile at this point in time. But the facts are there if you choose to read them.

223 Merryweather  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:19:28pm

These kind of thing is starting to scare the hell out of me. I'm hoping and praying all the crazy will eventually blow over with little harm done, but the more I see of loony right-wingers calling for military coups etc. the more I get a horrible JFK vibe.

Been lurking here for a while, was enormously frustrated to think I'd missed an open registration window, then saw a post by Charles mentioning that it was still in fact open. Yay! I consider myself moderate to liberal politically, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate intelligent, sane thoughts from the other side of the aisle, and the fact you're calling out this right-wing lunacy for what it is. Thanks Charles!

224 waveriderca  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:19:47pm

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Unfortuntely for some reason with Obama coming out Rush caught the Right Wing Rabies. What used to be a more lighthearted show came out and is now just filled with the rabidness you would only see on the deep dark internet forums. The craziness gets pushed mainstream onto fox news and their justification is look at the ratings! Hell even Bernie Goldberg is getting a little concerned about the nuttiness on the channel and you gotta know that things are getting crazy if he's calling out people on the same channel for being crazies.

Just because there is an audience for crazy, it doesn't mean it's ok.

225 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #223 Merryweather

These kind of thing is starting to scare the hell out of me. I'm hoping and praying all the crazy will eventually blow over with little harm done, but the more I see of loony right-wingers calling for military coups etc. the more I get a horrible JFK vibe.

Been lurking here for a while, was enormously frustrated to think I'd missed an open registration window, then saw a post by Charles mentioning that it was still in fact open. Yay! I consider myself moderate to liberal politically, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate intelligent, sane thoughts from the other side of the aisle, and the fact you're calling out this right-wing lunacy for what it is. Thanks Charles!

I do hope you read the rules.

226 SummerSong  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:20:39pm

More on the Peru earthquake

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

227 filetandrelease  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:20:52pm

re: #222 drcordell

The sourcing is right there on the page, Wikipedia just laid it out in plain graph form that's easy to read. Here is the link to the underlying source.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

I'm not interesting in getting into any further scuffles about this. It's really, really futile at this point in time. But the facts are there if you choose to read them.

Agreed, it is truely old news and clearly depends on where you get your information.

228 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:20:53pm

re: #200 avanti
Send him down here. I guarantee you that half the high school students don't know the name of the first president. And half of the ones who do think he was evil and his name should be removed from everything including our currency.
But if you ask them who won best video at the recent MTV awards, they'll nail it every time.

229 sagehen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:21:20pm

re: #180 SixDegrees

[Yawn] How did all the lawsuits filed over that turn out?


Report of the U. S. Commission on Civil Rights

It's a long report, but read at least the executive summary.

230 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:22:54pm

re: #226 SummerSong

More on the Peru earthquake

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

alot of activity over the last months...seems like something is brewing

231 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #212 badger1970

The European press is doing a pretty good job of reporting that , actually.
They're using adjectives like ' naive', when what they mean is ' weak '.
Even though I didn't vote for him, I'm not taking any comfort from that, either.

232 Fart Knocker  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:23:26pm

re: #230 albusteve

alot of activity over the last months...seems like something is brewing

God is angry at Obama!!!
/

233 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:23:54pm

On this topic you maybe can see the value of John McCain's "not vehement enough" presidential campaign.

234 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:24:08pm

re: #82 middy

Really!?

IIRC Bush would have won the popular vote under the recount Methodology desired by the Gore camp, and lost under the counter proposal offered by the Bush camp. Irony abounds.

In reality, Bush very very likely had the plurality of the popular vote (we're talking like 99%+ confidence, you can't call it 100% when it's relatively close, and in reality 99%+ is quite enough) and the Demoncrats can thank the butterfly ballot for the loss in Florida. And a counter argument that there may have been Republican votes lost when Florida was improperly declared for Gore is also a legitimate argument that the two errors managed to cancel each other out to produce the proper result.

235 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:24:25pm

re: #232 rwdflynavy

God is angry at Obama!!!
/

Then why is he punishing poor people in other countries?

236 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:24:26pm

I am still not sure about the direction LGF is taking on this issue. Elements of the right have always been nuts and the mainstream left has always focused on the insanity to demonize the entire right. Friedman's article is in that vein and is such it is a bunch of malarky. None of this is new. LGF used to be a voice for the mainstream (i.e., not Rush or other blowhards) who were sick of Friedman's editorials and the like. Now we have to come here and see such editorials? Ugh.

I especially do not like how Friedman thrusts everyone critical of Obama--or who is NOT critical of the right--in league with the Rabin murderer. That is a truly disgusting op/ed ploy and one which we ought to be criticizing in the strongest possible language. Instead, many of us are embracing it and that, to me, is totally screwball.

237 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:25:11pm

re: #195 tradewind

Oh, stop. Everyone knows how much you dislike Sarah Palin... I'm just glad to see you haven't signed on to that sorry fiction.

But you try to associate me with such ideas nonetheless, for your own obscure reasons. Nice.

238 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:25:59pm

re: #236 gremal

I am still not sure about the direction LGF is taking on this issue. Elements of the right have always been nuts and the mainstream left has always focused on the insanity to demonize the entire right. Friedman's article is in that vein and is such it is a bunch of malarky. None of this is new. LGF used to be a voice for the mainstream (i.e., not Rush or other blowhards) who were sick of Friedman's editorials and the like. Now we have to come here and see such editorials? Ugh.

I especially do not like how Friedman thrusts everyone critical of Obama--or who is NOT critical of the right--in league with the Rabin murderer. That is a truly disgusting op/ed ploy and one which we ought to be criticizing in the strongest possible language. Instead, many of us are embracing it and that, to me, is totally screwball.

Seven posts in 5 years - somehow, I question your sense of outrage over the whole phenomenon of assassination chic.

239 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:26:05pm

re: #236 gremal

Now we have to come here and see such editorials?

No. No, you don't.

240 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:26:16pm

re: #236 gremal

I especially do not like how Friedman thrusts everyone critical of Obama--or who is NOT critical of the right--in league with the Rabin murderer. That is a truly disgusting op/ed ploy and one which we ought to be criticizing in the strongest possible language. Instead, many of us are embracing it and that, to me, is totally screwball.

He absolutely did not do anything close to this. Here's what he wrote:

Mr. Obama is now having his legitimacy attacked by a concerted campaign from the right fringe.

Maybe you missed the word "fringe?"

241 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:26:26pm

re: #206 Kosh's Shadow

I don't know about Friedman, but the Saudis have insisted their plan be accepted unconditionally before they'll talk to the Israelis.
This has occurred repeatedly, when Israel says the plan is a good starting point for negotiations.
That tells me the Saudis want to get rid of Israel, and it isn't a real peace plan.

This may be the heart of the matter. Whether the Saudi Plan is accepted depends on how serious the Saudis are about an agreement. I don't think they were/are/will be serious. However, Friedman's statements don't indicate that Israel should jump all over this - instead he stated what Abdullah should do to get support for the plan, i.e., affirming the holocaust, etc... . Regarding the Saudis wanting to get rid f Israel, I think the Saudi's are grateful (in private) for Israel's existance.

242 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #232 rwdflynavy

God is angry at Obama!!!
/

that makes two of us

243 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:27:00pm

So, Troll rule #1: If you have a nic you intend to use if your main one gets blocked, occasionally post something with that nic, so that when you do use it, it won't be so obvious.

244 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:27:41pm

re: #236 gremal

I am still not sure about the direction LGF is taking on this issue. Elements of the right have always been nuts and the mainstream left has always focused on the insanity to demonize the entire right. Friedman's article is in that vein and is such it is a bunch of malarky. None of this is new. LGF used to be a voice for the mainstream (i.e., not Rush or other blowhards) who were sick of Friedman's editorials and the like. Now we have to come here and see such editorials? Ugh.

I especially do not like how Friedman thrusts everyone critical of Obama--or who is NOT critical of the right--in league with the Rabin murderer. That is a truly disgusting op/ed ploy and one which we ought to be criticizing in the strongest possible language. Instead, many of us are embracing it and that, to me, is totally screwball.

it's a sekrit darekshun

245 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:27:44pm

(Wonders why in the world we are still debating the 2000 election in 2009...)

246 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:28:32pm

re: #236 gremal

Why are you hitting yourself?

247 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:29:46pm

I'm not very fond of President Obama and didn't vote for him.

While I lean to the right I didn't not vote for him simply because I see myself on the right side. I simply didn't like a lot of his ideas and policies as well as who he was closely associated with.

For better or for worse though now he is my President. Speaking loudly but calmly is what gets him to rethink what he is doing, not seeking to disavow him with bullshit red herrings like the birth certificate morass. I hope that some of his policies fail miserably, only because I think they're bad for the nation.

But my life and the life and well being of my son depends on his overall success.

248 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:30:32pm
249 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:30:51pm

re: #226 SummerSong

More on the Peru earthquake

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]

Thanks for the heads up, my friend's relatives live right on the shores of Lake Titicaca. We're hoping they're all safe, and if she gets any information I'll pass it along.

250 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:08pm

It's amazing -- every time criticism appears of the far right fringe, people pop up and say, "How dare you accuse everyone on the right of this??!"

251 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:33pm

re: #196 EmmmieG

Oh hatchlings, little hatchlings,?
But answer came there none,

And this was scarcely odd because
They'd eaten every one...

*Just kidding*

"The time has come," the Lizard said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

252 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:34pm
238: Guanxi88

Angry Americans have been muttering about assassinating presidents since the time of George Washington and it's an uncomfortable fact, but the way Friedman addresses it in his editorial is absolutely disgusting. Especially how he raised the spectre of Rabin. I did not like that one bit.

And I agree so strongly with Charles/LGF through the years that I rarely posted, but this does bother me, that's all.

253 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #224 waveriderca

Rush turned this into an art form during the Clinton years. His hysteria was off the charts back then. It was probably toward the end of the second Clinton term I simply couldn't stand to listen to him any more. If anything, he's reverted to what he used to be, not necessarily become more so. El Rushbo thrives in an environment when there's a liberal-of-note to thump on, and his rating soar the more he gets his freak on.

254 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #237 Cato the Elder

What part of ' congratulations ' and ' glad to see you haven't signed on to that ' do you not comprehend?
Rhetorical question, btw.

255 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:31:59pm

re: #250 Charles

It's amazing -- every time criticism appears of the far right fringe, people pop up and say, "How dare you accuse everyone on the right of this??!"

I'd be more amazed by it if it wasn't happening so often...

(shrug)

256 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:14pm

re: #250 Charles

It's amazing -- every time criticism appears of the far right fringe, people pop up and say, "How dare you accuse everyone on the right of this??!"

I'm on the right from way back, heck I'll even admit I voted for Nixon. I'm right here with you.

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:16pm

Hiya folks. I'm not crazy.

Really.

258 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:16pm

re: #230 albusteve

alot of activity over the last months...seems like something is brewing

They Mayans were on to something ;)

259 fyodor baggins dostoevsky  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:21pm

I didn't realize so many reasonable Republicans still existed until I came across this site. You give me hope for the future. Keep fighting the good fight!

260 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:22pm

Protocol question here; is up-dinging hatchlings encouraged or no? Just realized I may have been a bit too free-spirited here, especially since I'm a hatchling too. (Thank goodness I didn't up-ding myself!)

261 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:28pm
262 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:39pm

re: #247 Equable

Well said. Plus, we've hired Obama, so to speak. The citizens are his boss. It is well that we tell him in a civil manner what we think of the job he is doing, and how he could improve his performance.

263 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:40pm

Oh to expound further, when the severe right harangues him with nonsense it will cause him to distance himselves from the right, to find himself in the safe arms of his own party. I myself would find this crap personally discouraging. I mean the President whether an asshole or a saint is human and will find difficulty in keeping emotion out of key decisions.

I would seek to encourage Mr. Obama with positive dialog.

264 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:32:58pm

re: #211 Flyers1974

I agree 100%. However, as I said in 199 above, if the plan were otherwise acceptable, this could be eliminated. It seems to me, this alone wouldn't be the sticking point for the Arabs.

The Arabs are in favor of the "Two State Solution" which to them means, they get one state (Palestine) now, with all the Jews removed, and the second state (Israel) later, after they have swamped it with "refugees" and pushed the Jews out. This is why they have refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

265 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:33:08pm

re: #247 Equable

It's a weird thing. I agreed with a lot of the reasons NOT to vote for Obama. However, now that he's in office, I don't agree with a lot of the criticism he receives. A lot of it is just too crazy and far-fetched.

266 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:33:43pm

re: #241 Flyers1974

This may be the heart of the matter. Whether the Saudi Plan is accepted depends on how serious the Saudis are about an agreement. I don't think they were/are/will be serious. However, Friedman's statements don't indicate that Israel should jump all over this - instead he stated what Abdullah should do to get support for the plan, i.e., affirming the holocaust, etc... . Regarding the Saudis wanting to get rid f Israel, I think the Saudi's are grateful (in private) for Israel's existance.

This, I agree with.
I think the Saudis would like for someone, even Israel, to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat, but I don't think they'll be able to act grateful enough to actually shake hands with an Israeli Jew.
But I would be quite pleased to see otherwise, and even happier when there is a Chabad in Ryadh. I'm just not holding my breath.

267 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:33:58pm

re: #252 gremal

Angry Americans have been muttering about assassinating presidents since the time of George Washington and it's an uncomfortable fact, but the way Friedman addresses it in his editorial is absolutely disgusting. Especially how he raised the spectre of Rabin. I did not like that one bit.

And I agree so strongly with Charles/LGF through the years that I rarely posted, but this does bother me, that's all.

Perhaps the spectre of Lincoln, Kennedy, or Garfield would have suited you better? Rabin's assassination is a modern example of the pattern he claims to observe at work here.

268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:33:59pm

re: #247 Equable

KILL THE RATIONAL BLASPHEMER!

///

269 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:09pm

re: #250 Charles

It's just that they're surly with the fringe on top...

270 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:14pm

re: #257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But are you wearing pants?

271 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:29pm

re: #260 Surabaya Stew

I think all posts should start out with one plus ding, from the poster.

272 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:38pm

re: #260 Surabaya Stew

Protocol question here; is up-dinging hatchlings encouraged or no? Just realized I may have been a bit too free-spirited here, especially since I'm a hatchling too. (Thank goodness I didn't up-ding myself!)

The dinger is in your hands. Use it as you see fit.

273 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:46pm

re: #260 Surabaya Stew

Protocol question here; is up-dinging hatchlings encouraged or no? Just realized I may have been a bit too free-spirited here, especially since I'm a hatchling too. (Thank goodness I didn't up-ding myself!)

The only protocol is not to be an asshole - really. Welcome aboard.

274 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

KILL THE RATIONAL BLASPHEMER!

///

BLASPHEME THE RATIONAL KILLER!

275 StillAMarine  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:34:51pm

re: #230 albusteve

Truly earth shaking events ...

276 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:06pm

re: #236 gremal

gremal
Karma: -5
Registered since: Jul 13, 2004 at 7:54 pm
No. of comments posted: 8
No. of links posted: 0

Eight comments since 2004? Damn, if this wasn't an obvious sock puppet, I have no idea what is.

277 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:11pm

re: #269 tradewind

describes GOP at the moment.

278 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:25pm

re: #272 wrenchwench

The dinger is in your hands. Use it as you see fit.

You can go blind from that, though.

279 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:39pm

re: #276 Honorary Yooper

Eight comments since 2004? Damn, if this wasn't an obvious sock puppet, I have no idea what is.

No.

You don't.

LOL!

280 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:40pm

For sure the discourse has become vile and unproductive, but where were all these concerned pundits when Bush was attacked daily, called a NAZI, a war criminal, carried signs with his head in cross hairs and other commonplace references to him being assassinated? I'm not excusing extremists on the right, I condemn it on all sides, but it pales in comparison to the hateful rhetoric from the left. This does not excuse the hate coming from the right, but if these lefties want me to take them seriously, they need to recognize their role in the degeneration of discourse before attacking the anyone else. If they're not prepared to own their share of the blame, STFU!

281 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:43pm

re: #11 Charles

Google is down.

Momentary code-fart, no doubt.

282 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:35:46pm

re: #270 theheat

But are you wearing pants?

Yeah. Not looking at "cake porn" right now...

283 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:02pm

re: #262 Ojoe

Thank you sir.

Lately Acorn is being looked at with a finer toothed comb over voter fraud. I wonder if this will trickle uphill, calling for something as amazingly dramatic as a recount?

I'd be all for it if it weren't 2009 instead of 2000. Sure turnabout is fair play and you often find that on the political chess board but right now we need to be focused more than ever. I mean the MAD scenario kept the Soviets at bay. Ahmadinejad counts on it.

284 Kragar  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:16pm

re: #278 Guanxi88

You can go blind from that, though.

Guan, turn around. We're all over here.

285 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:32pm

re: #263 Equable

Oh to expound further, when the severe right harangues him with nonsense it will cause him to distance himselves from the right, to find himself in the safe arms of his own party. I myself would find this crap personally discouraging. I mean the President whether an asshole or a saint is human and will find difficulty in keeping emotion out of key decisions.

I would seek to encourage Mr. Obama with positive dialog.

OT: I've been meaning to ask you something. From the cap in your pic I assume you are a Yankee fan. Have you been to the new stadium yet?

286 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:37pm

re: #277 Ojoe
I wondered how long that would take...
Decided it was worth it anyway.

287 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:45pm

re: #265 bosforus

Precisely, we need him focused instead of dodging press bombs by going to Europe to rally for the olympics to be in his home town.

288 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:36:55pm

re: #275 StillAMarine

Truly earth shaking events ...

I hope Bobby Jindal is paying attention

289 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:37:01pm

re: #276 Honorary Yooper

Eight comments since 2004? Damn, if this wasn't an obvious sock puppet, I have no idea what is.

That's more than a sock. That's ...a ... leg warmer.

290 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:37:46pm

re: #254 tradewind

What part of ' congratulations ' and ' glad to see you haven't signed on to that ' do you not comprehend?
Rhetorical question, btw.

What part of "disingenuous" and "sssnake" do you not get?

291 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #248 buzzsawmonkey

Some lefty types want to prove they are even more obsessive and dead-end-minded than the emergent rightwing fringe. The lefties really don't want to give up their corner on futility, and the realization that there are like-minded types now heading actual government offices upsets and confuses them.

Pity that there wont be an implosion as a real feedback loop would result in.

292 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:38:15pm

re: #285 Pianobuff

Actually (and oddly enough) I like Boston.

People often think I am a whack job when I tell them that I wear a Yankee cap more or less for New York city - I wear it to remind me of September 11 2001.

I observe that tragedy in one form or another daily.

293 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:38:27pm

re: #266 Kosh's Shadow

This, I agree with.
I think the Saudis would like for someone, even Israel, to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat, but I don't think they'll be able to act grateful enough to actually shake hands with an Israeli Jew.
But I would be quite pleased to see otherwise, and even happier when there is a Chabad in Ryadh. I'm just not holding my breath.

Actually my son, who is currently rebuilding the Chabad House that was destroyed in Mumbai, was invited to open a Chabad House in Dubai. However, he learned that it would be the plaything of the ruling Sheikh, who would display it in order to brag about his exotic collection. He would not be allowed to operate it as an actual Chabad House, hosting Jewish tourists and business travellers.

294 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:39:22pm

re: #290 Cato the Elder
The part you just lobbed over here.

295 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:39:25pm

re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

HAHA kill it with fire!

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:39:33pm

re: #293 Alouette

Actually my son, who is currently rebuilding the Chabad House that was destroyed in Mumbai, was invited to open a Chabad House in Dubai. However, he learned that it would be the plaything of the ruling Sheikh, who would display it in order to brag about his exotic collection. He would not be allowed to operate it as an actual Chabad House, hosting Jewish tourists and business travellers.

Good grief.

297 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:39:38pm

Buh-Bye, and tanks for the memories!


re: #190 Lord Blankfiend

Wow, I can't believe I was able to register.
I'll try my best not to make an ass of myself.

298 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:13pm

re: #294 tradewind

The part you just lobbed over here.

Whatever.

I know you of old, Windy.

299 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:27pm

re: #30 jaunte

Friedman is absolutely right about this:


I think that structural change in political districts is the most serious issue of all those that he lists; the underlying problem is that there is a shrinking number of politicians who need the moderate center.

I'm just glad we don't have a parliamentary form of government. Else, the fringes could have their own viable political parties, and hijack the whole government.

300 plonialmoni  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:29pm

I don't support putting a person in jail just for making a Facebook poll asking a very stupid question. Friedman has a good point and everything else he said makes sense.

301 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:30pm

re: #260 Surabaya Stew

Protocol question here; is up-dinging hatchlings encouraged or no? Just realized I may have been a bit too free-spirited here, especially since I'm a hatchling too. (Thank goodness I didn't up-ding myself!)

It's like buying a stranger a beer, the first one is free, how you act later determined if you get another round. Welcome aboard.

302 Pianobuff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:31pm

re: #292 Equable

Actually (and oddly enough) I like Boston.

People often think I am a whack job when I tell them that I wear a Yankee cap more or less for New York city - I wear it to remind me of September 11 2001.

I observe that tragedy in one form or another daily.

The whack job business may just be a natural reaction to seeing a Sox fan doing the unthinkable!

303 Interested and concerned CDN  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:40:39pm

re: #230 albusteve

Is that near Lake Titicaca? I couldn't figure.

304 lawhawk  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:41:23pm

OT:
Iraq is finding that a national unity has quite a bit of appeal, pulling together Iraqis across sectarian lines.

Interesting. Very interesting.

Of course, this is the NY Times, which thinks that history of Iraq starts with the US invasion in 2003, and ignores that there were sectarian lines for decades, but they were crushed by Saddam and his despotic underlings. Since 2003, and the ability to air those sectarian differences, you had a lot of trouble, but since the Anbar Awakening and the Surge, the sectarian differences are giving way to a renewed sense of nationalism, not the least of which might be due in some small part to the belligerence of their neighbor to the East, Iran.

305 bosforus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:41:26pm

re: #287 Equable

The far right is going for the figurative death blows instead of taking firm stances on legitimate criticism. I guess that's how politics goes but that's one of the things I hate about politics.

306 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:41:45pm

re: #266 Kosh's Shadow

This, I agree with.
I think the Saudis would like for someone, even Israel, to eliminate the Iranian nuclear threat, but I don't think they'll be able to act grateful enough to actually shake hands with an Israeli Jew.
But I would be quite pleased to see otherwise, and even happier when there is a Chabad in Ryadh. I'm just not holding my breath.

On a side note, while I think Friedman does some really good work, It does seem that one of his weaknesses is getting too close to some of these leaders, which is sometimes reflected in his writing, i.e., Hosni Mubarak (...Mubarak is genuinely pro-American...) But much of what he writes is dead on - Arab attitudes towards conspiracies and Israel, questioning how the Israeli-Palestinian situation is keeping Egyptians down, the role of the internet in making people angry, etc...

307 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:42:41pm

No guys, I'm not a sockpuppet. I'm one of you. And I originally came from the left and know what people reading the NYT are thinking--and believe me they are using a much wider brush than "fringe" to paint the right.

#267 Guanxi88

You can see "patterns" everywhere. And I resent being made out to be nonchalant about assassinations--you certainly aren't basing that on anything I've said. After reading much of Friedman's work, I've come to realize that he is a decent investigative journalist who then comes to all the wrong conclusions by ignoring what he investigated and focusing on his preconceptions. This op ed piece is par for his course.

308 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:42:53pm

re: #306 Flyers1974
He figured out that the internet can make people angry?
I take it back. He's a friggin' genius.
///

309 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:43:04pm

re: #303 Interested and concerned CDN

Is that near Lake Titicaca? I couldn't figure.

don't know...it just seems the Pacific Rim is pretty active lately

310 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:43:44pm

re: #293 Alouette

Actually my son, who is currently rebuilding the Chabad House that was destroyed in Mumbai, was invited to open a Chabad House in Dubai. However, he learned that it would be the plaything of the ruling Sheikh, who would display it in order to brag about his exotic collection. He would not be allowed to operate it as an actual Chabad House, hosting Jewish tourists and business travellers.

I am suprised Chabad would even entertain such an idea, but kudos to you and your son for working on the rebuilding of Chabad in India!

311 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:44:01pm

re: #304 lawhawk
Was it Biden who thought we should try splitting Iraq into three countries? You don't hear much about that one any more...

312 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:44:45pm

re: #190 Lord Blankfiend

I'll try my best not to make an ass of myself.

I believe in making an ass of yourself (preferably in public) at least once a day. It's good fun and keeps the ego in check.

I live life as if it were flashing before my eyes.

I mean, none of us are getting out of this one alive so if we can't take it for granted, how can we take it so seriously? And it's a sin to not live life to its fullest.

I come to blogs like this one to keep me from going too far to the right. Healthy political idiology is a precarious balancing act.

313 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:45:01pm

re: #293 Alouette

Actually my son, who is currently rebuilding the Chabad House that was destroyed in Mumbai, was invited to open a Chabad House in Dubai. However, he learned that it would be the plaything of the ruling Sheikh, who would display it in order to brag about his exotic collection. He would not be allowed to operate it as an actual Chabad House, hosting Jewish tourists and business travellers.

I'd give you up-dings and multiple ones. Or your son, especially.
And yes, I'm not surprised at Dubai, either way. They like to put on a show, but didn't they recently refuse entry to an Israeli tennis player?

(Note that I attend services at Chabad, usually, but I have to say I feel relatively safe here in the US. One of them had a memorial for the Mumbai rabbi and his wife, and mentioned them again on Yom Kippur.)

314 Interested and concerned CDN  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:45:20pm

re: #303 Interested and concerned CDN

D'oh...I see now.

I read somewhere that Lake Titicaca might have been a potential site for Homer's Atlantis. I am a skeptic on Atlantis, but I love reading about that sort of thing.

315 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:45:22pm

re: #305 bosforus

The far right is going for the figurative death blows instead of taking firm stances on legitimate criticism. I guess that's how politics goes but that's one of the things I hate about politics.

the pyros and noisemakers are drowning out the legitimate criticism...everybody is yelling at once and the craziest are the loudest

316 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:45:39pm

re: #309 albusteve
Not for nothin' did it get the nickname...

Youtube Video
317 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:45:45pm

As an aside, a cursory check of Chabad's web site shows no centers in the Mideast outside of Israel. Unless you want to count Cyprus, but I'm not touching that can of worms!

318 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #315 albusteve

And people are picking sides en masse. It's going to be an interesting four years.

319 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:46:12pm

re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

KILL THE RATIONAL BLASPHEMER!

///

re: #274 Guanxi88

BLASPHEME THE RATIONAL KILLER!

re: #307 gremal

No guys, I'm not a sockpuppet. I'm one of you. And I originally came from the left and know what people reading the NYT are thinking--and believe me they are using a much wider brush than "fringe" to paint the right.

You can see "patterns" everywhere. And I resent being made out to be nonchalant about assassinations--you certainly aren't basing that on anything I've said. After reading much of Friedman's work, I've come to realize that he is a decent investigative journalist who then comes to all the wrong conclusions by ignoring what he investigated and focusing on his preconceptions. This op ed piece is par for his course.

The BLASPHEME THE RATIONAL KILLER was a riff on KILL THE RATIONAL BLASHEMER. As for my being unable to base any purported allegations of nonchalance toward assassinations on your part on anything you've said, well, part of the problem is you haven't said much of anything, based on your history.

Friedman's okay as far as he goes, and while I don't think all the patterns he sees are there, I will say that vilification of the political class is a danger too great to ignore.

320 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:46:20pm

re: #316 tradewind


Kids just love that name. Just sayin'

321 Splatt  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:46:23pm

Awesome. I'm in. Got turned on to this site a few months ago while searching high and low for SOME conservative answer to the apeshitted-ness I see all around me on the far-right. Have been hooked ever since.

I just have one question, though, and it's been eating at me for awhile now - doesn't it seem at odds with the present general direction of this site to be advertising Beck's book?

I'm just saying...

322 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:46:49pm

re: #312 Equable

Oops. I meant ideology. My bust.

323 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:47:10pm

re: #311 tradewind

Was it Biden who thought we should try splitting Iraq into three countries? You don't hear much about that one any more...

the idea was so ludicrous it died almost instantly

324 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:47:21pm

re: #280 Ziggy

For sure the discourse has become vile and unproductive, but where were all these concerned pundits when Bush was attacked daily, called a NAZI, a war criminal, carried signs with his head in cross hairs and other commonplace references to him being assassinated? I'm not excusing extremists on the right, I condemn it on all sides, but it pales in comparison to the hateful rhetoric from the left. This does not excuse the hate coming from the right, but if these lefties want me to take them seriously, they need to recognize their role in the degeneration of discourse before attacking the anyone else. If they're not prepared to own their share of the blame, STFU!

At least with the right-wing hysteria, we don't have to read eye-glazing pap in the monthly slickzines about how this is the highest form of patriotism.

325 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:47:24pm

re: #320 EmmmieG
Oh, the lake?
Bet it did cause some titters. I went to a school with no boys, so not so much.

326 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:47:29pm

re: #321 Splatt

Awesome. I'm in. Got turned on to this site a few months ago while searching high and low for SOME conservative answer to the apeshitted-ness I see all around me on the far-right. Have been hooked ever since.

I just have one question, though, and it's been eating at me for awhile now - doesn't it seem at odds with the present general direction of this site to be advertising Beck's book?

I'm just saying...

Charles doesn't pick those ads. Just an FYI--if you click on the Amazon link and then buy something there, he gets a cut for the referral.

327 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #325 tradewind

Oh, the lake?
Bet it did cause some titters. I went to a school with no boys, so not so much.

No, no. Ring of...FIRE. They say it just like that. They love the idea of a ring of volcanoes and earthquakes, mostly because they've never really experienced either. Me, I've lived through both.

328 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:48:32pm

re: #317 bofhell

As an aside, a cursory check of Chabad's web site shows no centers in the Mideast outside of Israel. Unless you want to count Cyprus, but I'm not touching that can of worms!

There are centers in Tunisia and Morocco, but that's probably considered North Africa and not Mideast.

329 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:49:22pm

re: #328 Alouette

There are centers in Tunisia and Morocco, but that's probably considered North Africa and not Mideast. southern France.

330 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:49:27pm

re: #321 Splatt

Awesome. I'm in. Got turned on to this site a few months ago while searching high and low for SOME conservative answer to the apeshitted-ness I see all around me on the far-right. Have been hooked ever since.

I just have one question, though, and it's been eating at me for awhile now - doesn't it seem at odds with the present general direction of this site to be advertising Beck's book?

I'm just saying...

Blogads are a law unto themselves. Don't shoot the piano player.

331 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:49:43pm

re: #260 Surabaya Stew

Protocol question here; is up-dinging hatchlings encouraged or no? Just realized I may have been a bit too free-spirited here, especially since I'm a hatchling too. (Thank goodness I didn't up-ding myself!)

Hey fellow hatchling (just added to FF dictionary, btw). It's nice to not be the only noob, eh?

Back to work!

332 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #250 Charles

It's amazing -- every time criticism appears of the far right fringe, people pop up and say, "How dare you accuse everyone on the right of this??!"

A theory:

1) The accusations hit uncomfortably close to home. Take a look at the nirther nonsense, when you have large percentages, if not outright majorities of Republicans questioning if Obama is a Natural Born US Citizen, and by extension not the legitimate President. It's not that much of a stretch to wonder if there is a majority of people who identify as Republicans who sympathize with the nonsense being pushed out by the Fringe. My fear, the fringe really isn't the fringe anymore, and rational Republicans are being marginalized and reduced to... the fringe.

I'm about to tell a couple of anecdote, and we know that it's dangerous to draw conclusions from them, but certainly they've made me sit up and take note:

First, at my work, I'm sitting there chatting with a friend, and we're talking about Obama, and he mentions that he should resign because he hasn't proven that he has a US birth certificate. While I'm trying to even form a response, other people in cubicles start agreeing with him. so I made copies of the Nevada area 51 birth certificate and put in their cubicles. These are otherwise intelligent people who are buying into the nirther stuff.

Second, I was golfing in our club championship (I did... godawful and ended up 11 over my handicap for the 2 day event), and so I'm golfing with 3 other people that I don't know there well, but they're friendly enough. Then out of no where, one person starts on about having a N*** president, and that we're going to have a N*** ruining the country and turning us into a socialist country. then the second guy agrees and goes on about how our country is on the path to ruin. What set me off the most was the third guy chipping in with 'hell I wish we had Hitler as vice president, cause he'd have Obama assasinated by now.' I simply turned to the group and said, 'I know you have your views, but what you have said is unacceptable and beyond the pale.'

If people feel comfortable enough to say this stuff around people in public, then I fear it's not simply a 'fringe'

333 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:50:23pm

re: #327 EmmmieG

No, no. Ring of...FIRE. They say it just like that. They love the idea of a ring of volcanoes and earthquakes, mostly because they've never really experienced either. Me, I've lived through both.

Youtube Video
334 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:50:42pm

re: #327 EmmmieG

It is kind of a cool idea. Unless you live on it, and I guess those people are having a hard time right now. That Samoan thing was awful, they got zero warning before the tsunami.

335 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:51:30pm

re: #334 tradewind

It is kind of a cool idea. Unless you live on it, and I guess those people are having a hard time right now. That Samoan thing was awful, they got zero warning before the tsunami.

We had tons of warning for Mt. St. Helens, and it still dumped piles of dirt on us on a daily basis. Saved lives, though, to have warning.

336 abbyadams  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:51:52pm

re: #132 Cato the Elder

I want to give you half an upding. The top part - Right on. Again, I have real problems with people using words (fascist! marxist!) and talking about our system of government when they have no fracking clue what they are talking about. The Constitution does not espouse any type of economic plan.

I'd give you the other half of the ding, but, although I am no fan of the (ex) governor of Alaska, death panels and all, I'm not ready to equate her with some of the Tea Partiers. (But there's still room for that.)

337 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:51:57pm

re: #324 The Sanity Inspector
True, indeed. I would just like to see some consistency in the criticism of the fringes.

338 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:52:03pm

Some new faces around LGF today, welcome to all of you!

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #334 tradewind

When the Yellowstone Caldera blows...

340 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:52:53pm

re: #332 bloodstar

Wow... do you live in Area 51?
I'm in the deep south, and I don't know anyone whose Mama wouldn't have washed their mouth out with soap for using that word. You just don't hear it.

341 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:52:57pm

re: #335 EmmmieG

We had tons of warning for Mt. St. Helens, and it still dumped piles of dirt on us on a daily basis. Saved lives, though, to have warning.

I've got a quart mason jar somewhere or other full of ash from that eruption, thoughtfully gathered for a young science geek (me) by a kindly uncle. Oughtta dig it out and put it on my desk or something.

342 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:03pm

re: #328 Alouette

There are centers in Tunisia and Morocco, but that's probably considered North Africa and not Mideast.

I missed those...

343 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:22pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When the Yellowstone Caldera blows...

The next sentient species to evolve will have fun figuring out the fossils we will leave behind.

344 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #324 The Sanity Inspector

At least with the right-wing hysteria, we don't have to read eye-glazing pap in the monthly slickzines about how this is the highest form of patriotism.

would that make them pap-smearer's?
/

345 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:39pm

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

When the Yellowstone Caldera blows...

There won't be anyone around to complain about lack of warning, or bitch about FEMA not doing its job.

346 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:40pm

re: #308 tradewind

He figured out that the internet can make people angry?
I take it back. He's a friggin' genius.
///

What most people would not know or even think about, and what Friedman highlighted, is the propensity of some of the few Arabs with internet access to distribute conspiracy theories and false tales of atrocities to other Arabs without the internet, and for these things to then be taken as the gospel truth simply because the information came from the internet.

347 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:53:40pm

re: #329 Guanxi88

There are centers in Tunisia and Morocco, but that's probably considered North Africa and not Mideast. southern France.

No, France is North Morocco.

348 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:54:00pm

re: #271 Ojoe

I think all posts should start out with one plus ding, from the poster.

Hmmm, interesting idea, but isn't that rather calling too much attention to one's self?


re: #272 wrenchwench

The dinger is in your hands. Use it as you see fit.

I'll be very careful with the dinger, don't want hairy palms now!


re: #273 Creeping Eruption

The only protocol is not to be an asshole - really. Welcome aboard.

Good advice to follow...and I'm happy to be aboard-thanks!

349 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:54:18pm

re: #340 tradewind

I got fired from a job for calling the boss out on it.

He was from NYC.

350 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:54:28pm

re: #347 Alouette

No, France is North Morocco.

That was the thought, but there was no way to edit your work to carry the senitment,

351 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:55:06pm

re: #346 Flyers1974

Which is how the sheiks have been sitting on top of the masses all these years anyway, even without the internet.
When the people finally redirect their anger one day, it's going to be hell.

352 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:55:49pm

I wonder if Friedman ever called out the batshit left during the past 8 years? If not, he's certainly being selective in his outrage.

353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:55:50pm

I got a free movie ticket. Time to walk up to the window and say, "What's next?"

I think it's "Cloudy with a chance of meatballs".

Why not. Free.

354 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:56:22pm

re: #345 Guanxi88
Hope it misses Bozeman.

355 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:56:24pm

re: #319 Guanxi88

The BLASPHEME THE RATIONAL KILLER was a riff on KILL THE RATIONAL BLASHEMER. As for my being unable to base any purported allegations of nonchalance toward assassinations on your part on anything you've said, well, part of the problem is you haven't said much of anything, based on your history.

I don't have time to post a lot--I work full time. But your zing in post 238 about me not caring about the phenomenon of assassination chic did bug me. I absolutely do care. But I put it in perspective.

Friedman's okay as far as he goes, and while I don't think all the patterns he sees are there, I will say that vilification of the political class is a danger too great to ignore.

But LGF's own header for this is The Right Is Going Dangerously Crazy...and that's tame compared to what I'm reading elsewhere online where the right is being demonized. I just think there are enough websites that cater to that kind of thing--that the far right is such an easy target hit hard and heavy enough elsewhere--that LGF can focus more on the inane voices on the left. Those are still worth discussing!

356 CommonCents  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:56:28pm

re: #340 tradewind

Wow... do you live in Area 51?
I'm in the deep south, and I don't know anyone whose Mama wouldn't have washed their mouth out with soap for using that word. You just don't hear it.

You would be surprised to learn how much more vocal Midwesterners are about their racism. I've lived in Florida, Ohio, Virginia, and now Michigan. It seems the further north I go the worse it gets. I would also like to add that A LOT of the boisterous ones are not Republicans.

357 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:57:05pm

re: #353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's supposed to be a hilarious kid's movie. Try it, you may like it!

358 sagehen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:57:21pm

re: #337 Ziggy

True, indeed. I would just like to see some consistency in the criticism of the fringes.

We're pretty consistent in our belief that the people with guns are scarier than the people armed only with giant puppets.

359 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:57:26pm

re: #353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I got a free movie ticket. Time to walk up to the window and say, "What's next?"

I think it's "Cloudy with a chance of meatballs".

Why not. Free.

One of the greatest children's books of all time.

360 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:57:40pm

re: #340 tradewind

Wow... do you live in Area 51?
I'm in the deep south, and I don't know anyone whose Mama wouldn't have washed their mouth out with soap for using that word. You just don't hear it.

I don't want to get too specific, but I live in the Atlanta metro area and I try to console myself by telling myself that these are all older men (one was in his late 60's the other in his 70's, the third is in his 40s), and they're from another age and another time, and just never changed. That's my hope at least.

361 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:58:38pm

Have a great evening lizards, I'm off to the pub for dinner with friends and the evening session.

Would you kindly give Sharmuta a message for me when she logs in?
Please tell her to check her email.

362 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:58:42pm

re: #355 gremal

I just think there are enough websites that cater to that kind of thing--that the far right is such an easy target hit hard and heavy enough elsewhere--that LGF can focus more on the inane voices on the left. Those are still worth discussing!

Start your own blog and post what you think is most important.

363 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:58:45pm

re: #321 Splatt

Awesome. I'm in. Got turned on to this site a few months ago while searching high and low for SOME conservative answer to the apeshitted-ness I see all around me on the far-right. Have been hooked ever since.

I just have one question, though, and it's been eating at me for awhile now - doesn't it seem at odds with the present general direction of this site to be advertising Beck's book?

I'm just saying...

Change for a nickel? I had to ask. A HerrDoktor registered the other day, too...world keeps getting smaller or people are running out of nics. Either way, welcome fellow hatchling.

364 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:59:01pm

re: #321 Splatt

Awesome. I'm in. Got turned on to this site a few months ago while searching high and low for SOME conservative answer to the apeshitted-ness I see all around me on the far-right. Have been hooked ever since.

I just have one question, though, and it's been eating at me for awhile now - doesn't it seem at odds with the present general direction of this site to be advertising Beck's book?

I'm just saying...

There's no Glenn Beck ad running at LGF. There was, for one week, because they paid for it. Last time I checked, Simon and Schuster's money didn't have Glenn Beck cooties on it.

365 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 12:59:11pm

re: #356 CommonCents

You would be surprised to learn how much more vocal Midwesterners are about their racism. I've lived in Florida, Ohio, Virginia, and now Michigan. It seems the further north I go the worse it gets. I would also like to add that A LOT of the boisterous ones are not Republicans.

I am from Wisconsin and can, unfortunately, confirm that broad generalization (while keeping in mind it is a broad generalization).

366 tradewind  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:00:25pm

re: #360 bloodstar
Especially in Atlanta, they're going to learn fast, I would imagine. Hard to get away with that there, even out of ignorance.
You may be right about the generational thing. I guess some people are not ever going to change, but I don't know a lot of them.

367 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:00:33pm

re: #364 Charles

LGF: Fleecing the Fleecers

368 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:00:35pm

re: #332 bloodstar
I live in Philly, but have spent plenty of time down south...Miss.,Va., TN. In my experience the North is far more racist, or at least open about it.

369 brent  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:02:24pm

Here's a quick knee jerk retort, all I can bring myself to add - how many t-shirts have you seen in the last few years with a picture of Bush (W) with a sniper scope X across his face? Now think hard, how many t-shirts with Obama and anything similar?
I'm a mid-size city dweller, and I saw more than a few openly threatening shirts, signs, bumperstickers against Bush (and more against Cheney). Kill the real terrorists, Bush and Cheney was a pretty common theme. Remember 2002,3,4.. ,Thomas? People were comfortable driving kids to school with these bumperstickers - saw that more than I like to remember. This sh*t is not new, not that it's still not sh*t.

370 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:03:38pm

re: #362 wrenchwench

Start your own blog and post what you think is most important.

Charles does a better job of it than I ever could!

371 John Neverbend  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:04:20pm

re: #293 Alouette

Actually my son, who is currently rebuilding the Chabad House that was destroyed in Mumbai, was invited to open a Chabad House in Dubai. However, he learned that it would be the plaything of the ruling Sheikh, who would display it in order to brag about his exotic collection. He would not be allowed to operate it as an actual Chabad House, hosting Jewish tourists and business travellers.

I wonder what else would the Sheikh would have had in his exotic collection?

372 Flyers1974  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:04:39pm

re: #351 tradewind

Which is how the sheiks have been sitting on top of the masses all these years anyway, even without the internet.
When the people finally redirect their anger one day, it's going to be hell.

It depends, I think. My guess is that the average Saudi, Kuwati, UAE, etc... citizen is fine with things as they are, placated as they are with oil revenue. Egyptians are probably the most pissed, but I don't see how they could have the chance to redirect their anger, at least in any significant numbers. Which leaves the question of what they would like to do next, if their anger did result in something like Mubarak going down.

373 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:05:06pm

re: #368 Ziggy

I live in Philly, but have spent plenty of time down south...Miss.,Va., TN. In my experience the North is far more racist, or at least open about it.

may be...different and shorter history of a mixed culture

374 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:06:25pm

re: #359 Creeping Eruption

One of the greatest children's books of all time.

I also recommend the much-underappreciated "Ultraviolet Catastrophe!"

375 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:06:46pm

re: #331Blizard

Hey fellow hatchling (just added to FF dictionary, btw). It's nice to not be the only noob, eh?

Back to work!

It is nice to not be the only noob indeed! However, this hatchling is done with work for today, seeing that the only work around is looking for a new job. However, the silver lining to unemployment is that I re-discovered LGF!

376 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:07:01pm

re: #370 gremal

Charles does a better job of it than I ever could!

Then don't second-guess him about where his focus should be. It's rude, and it adds nothing to the discussion.

377 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #358 sagehen

We're pretty consistent in our belief that the people with guns are scarier than the people armed only with giant puppets.


As a staunch supporter of the 2nd, let me just say that anyone who brings a gun to a Presidential rally or town hall is a kook. Having said that, most gun carriers I know are very well mannered and even tempered. BTW, some of those puppets are really scary.

378 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:08:01pm

re: #340 tradewind

Wow... do you live in Area 51?
I'm in the deep south, and I don't know anyone whose Mama wouldn't have washed their mouth out with soap for using that word. You just don't hear it.

I don't live in the deep south, and I've heard it all my life from white people who think they're "among their own". I think it's you who lives in Area 51.

Sometimes, I'll grant you, the racists are more discreet. One job I had, whenever I would learn a new task and not do it the accepted way, my boss would say, "Do it like a white man."

Yep. Racism, a thing of the past.

379 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:09:38pm

OT. BNO is reporting ANOTHER quake, this one in SE Peru.

[Link: news.bnonews.com...]

Pinky, did you remember to turn OFF the Quake-O-Meter

No Brain, but I found this neat-o shiny crystally ring. NARF.

380 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #376 wrenchwench

Then don't second-guess him about where his focus should be. It's rude, and it adds nothing to the discussion.

Not to mention strange to post 11 comments in five years and come on whingeing about the focus of the blog and what is "worth discussing."

Class of 2004

381 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:10:25pm

re: #373 albusteve

may be...different and shorter history of a mixed culture

I'm not saying it's so, just saying that's my personal experience.

382 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #374 SanFranciscoZionist

I also recommend the much-underappreciated "Ultraviolet Catastrophe!"

Is that really a book? I'll check it out. I have to take off, but I will also recommend the Three Little Wolves and the Big Bad Pig. It is a modern take of the Three Little Pigs - with a spin or two involving a fortress-like home with video-phone and the Big Bad Pig trying to blow it up with TNT. Yes is is safe for children and has a happy ending. The best part is that it is fun for a parent to read.

383 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:10:56pm

re: #371 John Neverbend

I wonder what else would the Sheikh would have had in his exotic collection?

Anything he wants. He could buy Lisa Marie Presley and the Elephant Man from Michael Jackson's collection.

384 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:11:29pm

re: #366 tradewind

Especially in Atlanta, they're going to learn fast, I would imagine. Hard to get away with that there, even out of ignorance.
You may be right about the generational thing. I guess some people are not ever going to change, but I don't know a lot of them.

Atlanta's metro is a big area with 5+ million people, and once you get out about 25+ miles away, things are a bit different it seems.

385 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:12:02pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

[...]
Sometimes, I'll grant you, the racists are more discreet. One job I had, whenever I would learn a new task and not do it the accepted way, my boss would say, "Do it like a white man."

Yep. Racism, a thing of the past.

I've heard: "That's mighty white of you" many times.

386 Equable  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:13:29pm

re: #378 Cato the Elder

One time at an old job my supervisor's Exchange profile somehow ended up on my machine, thus it downloaded her email.

As luck would have it, and before I figured out that this wasn't my email profile I saw an exchange between her and a newly-hired employee speaking about how my supervisor tends to like "hiring her own people" above all others as do many of the other supervisors. Now normally I would have jumped all over this, but my supervisor was a black woman and I needed the job at the time.

Racism in the workplace is the suck, especially if it's seniority who is at fault.

387 CommonCents  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:13:36pm

re: #365 Creeping Eruption

I am from Wisconsin and can, unfortunately, confirm that broad generalization (while keeping in mind it is a broad generalization).

I wasn't generalizing that Midwesterners are racist. I was just pointing out that in my day-to-day activities the use of racist language seems to flow more openly.

388 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:15:51pm

re: #379 bofhell

OT. BNO is reporting ANOTHER quake, this one in SE Peru.

[Link: news.bnonews.com...]

Fascinating! And scary.

389 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:17:36pm

re: #376 wrenchwench

Then don't second-guess him about where his focus should be. It's rude, and it adds nothing to the discussion.

That's one interpretation, and I very much apologize for being rude. An alternate interpretation is that I have a valid point that wasn't being said firmly enough. I know Charles takes a lot of crap from all angles and yes I guess I was being critical, but ultimately I needed to speak my mind against Friedman on this one--especially about the Rabin thing. That is a constant strawman the left sets up to bash Israel and now it is being used to bash the right or the fringe right--even there I don't see how it applies. And it feeds into the left's martyrdom fantasy--the starry eyed way they see Obama.

390 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:21:18pm

re: #352 stewati

I wonder if Friedman ever called out the batshit left during the past 8 years? If not, he's certainly being selective in his outrage.

A reticent poster, eh? 2 posts in as many years

391 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:25:01pm

re: #389 gremal

They make your point and defend it, without taking stabs at the blog's "focus" or what is "worth discussing."

There have been a lot of those sorts of posts lately from registrants who feel compelled to come out of hibernation to slam the blog.

Your apology is noted.

392 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:25:08pm

re: #389 gremal

TAnd it feeds into the left's martyrdom fantasy--the starry eyed way they see Obama.

I'll agree on the martyrdom fantasy complex - it's a common condition among whackos.

393 Buster  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:26:01pm

re: #368 Ziggy

I live in Philly, but have spent plenty of time down south...Miss.,Va., TN. In my experience the North is far more racist, or at least open about it.

A friend of mine's mother spent her summers in Chicago, and winters in Oxford Mississippi. She used to say: "In the South, they hate the race and love the individual. In the North, they love the race and hate the individual". After living in the Midwest, the Southeast, and the deep South, I am convinced of this.

394 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:27:21pm

re: #352 stewati

I wonder if Friedman ever called out the batshit left during the past 8 years? If not, he's certainly being selective in his outrage.

Just wondering eh, no need to bother with actual facts when indulging in fantasy.

Yep, always the smoke and mirrors. Pitiful. "But the other side probably did it too."

395 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:28:17pm

re: #390 Guanxi88

A reticent poster yes. Read more than I post, but Mr. Friedman generally pisses me off - first his Communist chinese ass kissing and now his selective outrage about right-wing crazies prompted me to say something. Hope that's ok.

396 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:29:25pm

re: #394 Bagua

Just asking the question Bagua. I don't like the crazies on either side, but the gatekeepers are very selective about who they condemn. No smoke and mirrors.

397 Quant  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:32:07pm

Hello Lizards, a hatchling here. I'm from South Africa. Although I could probably best be described as centre-left, I try to read a variety of opinions from across the political spectrum.

I started following American politics more closely about a year ago and was surprised at the level of vitriol and sheer craziness that I found on some websites, but what surprised me the most was seeing Republican politicians and influential people like Beck and Limbaugh cynically repeating the crazy in order to drum up fear and opposition to everything, regardless of merit. There are enough real problems in the US to solve, and enough missteps made by the Obama administration and the Democrats to attack without talking about death panels or re-education camps.

I'm not sure how I came across LGF, but it was like a breath of fresh air in the claustrophobic atmosphere of paranoia and conspiracy theories. I've been reading LGF for a couple of months now and have enjoyed the intelligent and open-minded discussions here.

398 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:32:46pm

re: #396 stewati

And I suspect you of selection bias as well. Have you ever questioned the author of an article pointing out a crazy on the Left if he also wrote about crazes on the Right?

399 Ziggy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:35:15pm

re: #393 Buster

interesting, I wonder why?

400 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:37:03pm

re: #397 Quant

Hi Quant, welcome, "Speak Friend and Enter"

* note that the conversation moves fairly quickly to the newest thread. Listed to the right of "front page" just below the last comment, when you are on the active thread this space is blank.

401 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:37:05pm

re: #395 stewati

A reticent poster yes. Read more than I post, but Mr. Friedman generally pisses me off - first his Communist chinese ass kissing and now his selective outrage about right-wing crazies prompted me to say something. Hope that's ok.

My approval you don't need. He's off by a bit on his comments; there is a dangerous radicalization and more frequent and urgent calls for resort to violence in the past twenty or so years, but not necessarily for the reasons he thinks.

402 akarra  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:38:35pm

re: #1 zeir

I wasn't taught to respect the office, but I just kinda did and still do: at some point, I'm really grateful for living in the United States, and that trumps any "need" to get paranoid and throw increasingly violent tantrums for partisan gain.

403 akarra  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:40:03pm

re: #2 thedopefishlives

Agreed. Pundits are usually very slow to observe serious phenomena, inasmuch as they focus on gossip and minutiae usually. Friedman's always been a bit different - he likes having a global focus - but it's always a bit watered down. Not this time.

404 Quant  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:40:21pm

re: #400 Bagua

Thank you. I'm going to have to move a bit faster to keep up with the Lizards.

405 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #404 Quant

Thank you. I'm going to have to move a bit faster to keep up with the Lizards.

It took me several months to clock on to this.

406 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:43:17pm

re: #398 Bagua

Yep, I question our media betters all the time, on the left and on the right about their selectiveness, bias and hypocrisy. I'm wagering that Friedman wasn't wringing his hands about the left when they were wearing t-shirts like this or waving signs like this.

407 Buster  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:46:02pm

re: #399 Ziggy

I think it has a lot to do with the population mix. I the North people can be very philosophical yet seldom interact with someone who does not look like them. In the South interactions are inevitable and bonds are formed with fellow workers, subordinates, caregivers etc. regardless of race.

408 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:46:22pm

re: #406 stewati

Perhaps, but colour me sceptical as you have never done so on this forum.

409 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:48:35pm

re: #408 Bagua

You're right, I'm an infrequent commenter here and never said I was anything different. My point was Friedman's selectivity not a review of my activity on LGF.

410 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:49:56pm

re: #409 stewati

You're right, I'm an infrequent commenter here and never said I was anything different. My point was Friedman's selectivity not a review of my activity on LGF.

"I distrust a close-mouthed man. He generally picks the wrong time to talk and says the wrong things. Talking's something you can't do judiciously, unless you keep in practice." - Kasper Gutman

411 harpsicon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:50:16pm

re: #61 Honorary Yooper

Since I'm beginning to feel like the oldest person around here, let me add an anecdote to illustrate how indeed we are all too crazy now.

Richard Nixon, who was hardly anybody's idea of serene and calm, back in the day, was asked after the 1960 election whether he'd demand a recount. It was a very close election, and he lost Illinois by a few thousand votes, meaning that he was almost surely undone by the Daley machine in Chicago, and as this was the margin of victory, he almost surely was the actual winner in that election.

His response: "I could, but it would be bad for America."

Amazing, because unlike Gore he was almost sure to have been vindicated, if anybody started turning over rocks in Chicago to see what would have scampered out..

412 CJDate  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:51:37pm

re: #276 Honorary Yooper

Eight comments since 2004? Damn, if this wasn't an obvious sock puppet, I have no idea what is.

I've been registered for quite a while, but I rarely post, and believe me, I'm not a sock puppet.

Where do you find those stats on comments and karma, anyway?

413 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:51:44pm

re: #410 Guanxi88

Was my comment wrong? Has Friedman condemned anyone other than the asshats on the right?

414 SFGoth  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:52:38pm

Ironically, the Right was right about Oslo.

415 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:52:38pm

re: #409 stewati

You're right, I'm an infrequent commenter here and never said I was anything different. My point was Friedman's selectivity not a review of my activity on LGF.

OK, but note that this is a common occurrence and instance of selective bias that we see all the time here on the forum.

416 SFGoth  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:53:49pm

re: #364 Charles

There's no Glenn Beck ad running at LGF. There was, for one week, because they paid for it. Last time I checked, Simon and Schuster's money didn't have Glenn Beck cooties on it.

Like gay money is still green, not pink?

417 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:55:01pm

re: #413 stewati

Was my comment wrong? Has Friedman condemned anyone other than the asshats on the right?

Help me, then. You, a long reader and infrequent commenter, outraged that Friedman, whom you apparently discount as some manner of hack, quack, or partisan, has suggested parallels in the political environments of two more-or-less Western nations, in one of which there was a recent assassination, in the other of which there has been more and more frequent discussion of the desirability of assassination, take this occasion to spring up from the abyss of inactivity and spring into action?

Why? Did nothing important or outrageous happen before now? And why do the words of the unreliable and inconsistent Mr. Friedman bother you so? This is the mystery.

418 lrsshadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:57:39pm

I don't agree with the connection. I don't see a level of animosity toward the president anymore then what existed in the past.

Even the people who wanted to kill clinton was much greater and were very serious about it. The secrete service had there hands full for most of his presidency.

I just keep getting the impression that we have way to many people who make way to big of a deal over trivial things;

You got people who are making a big deal over the president not being born in America (or so they say). Well even if he wasn't born in the US, congress affirmed his presidency, so then constitutionally he is president, period end of issue. The only way to end his presidency is to vote him out of office or have congress take up impeachment (good luck with that).

You have many on the left trying to paint a broad brush and make connections of everyone who disagrees with the given agenda of the one as crazy, loony, waked out racists redneck, gun tooting, bible thumping, hillbilly,... whatever and in response we have the right saying everyone who is with the president is saying they are a bunch of (see above in this paragraph)

You have opportunistic politicians who are running around like chicken little's talking about the sky is falling, the government needs to save the economy, people are dieing without health care, the president wants to kill off seniors, the Republicans' health care plan is for you to die, the census wants to put you in FEMA concentration camps which are being built at military bases right now (and actually this has been bolstered by the fact that on many military bases they are building cities that look like concentrated camp housing, when in fact they are training sites, please note most military operations are now being done in urban terrain so the military is building facilities for training in urban environments, take the tinfoil off of you head and stop trying to scare the gullible).

I hope the worst thing happens to most of the politicians over the next few years, They Get Voted Out of Office, because we really need to clean house so we can get to fixing the house.

419 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 1:59:03pm

re: #417 Guanxi88
Look, I don't disagree with Mr. Friedman's concern - its valid. I was calling out his selective bias as Bagua noted. He's not a hack but is selective in his condemnation, that was my only point. I didn't mean to raise your hackles so much.

420 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:05:39pm

re: #419 stewati

Look, I don't disagree with Mr. Friedman's concern - its valid. I was calling out his selective bias as Bagua noted. He's not a hack but is selective in his condemnation, that was my only point. I didn't mean to raise your hackles so much.

Look, Friedman I can take or leave. Selective outrage - it's fair to call it on him. We've had quite the Night of the Living Troll here lately, and, given infrequency of posting, and what could easily be interpreted as an attack on the messenger who brings the bad but true news...

421 stewati  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:11:13pm

re: #420 Guanxi88

No troll here, just don't post much (but probably should - the Gutman quote is good one).

I should have prefaced my initial post with something like: "I don't dispute Friedman's valid points but ..."

422 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:11:50pm

re: #421 stewati

No troll here, just don't post much (but probably should - the Gutman quote is good one).

I should have prefaced my initial post with something like: "I don't dispute Friedman's valid points but ..."

Excellent - come out of the shadows and stay out here. It's a blast.

423 Bagua  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:15:27pm

re: #420 Guanxi88

Agreed, see my #415.

Stewati, we tend to take no prisoners here on this forum, and have suffered from a great deal of trollish/sock puppet/stalker posting as of late. Post a bit, establish your participation and defend your positions and all is well.

424 Blizard  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:18:54pm

re: #412 CJDate

I've been registered for quite a while, but I rarely post, and believe me, I'm not a sock puppet.

Where do you find those stats on comments and karma, anyway?

Click on the green (or red) number to the right of your post to see your dingers.

425 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #412 CJDate

I've been registered for quite a while, but I rarely post, and believe me, I'm not a sock puppet.

Where do you find those stats on comments and karma, anyway?

Click on an avatar to see the lizard's total statistics

426 dhg4  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:25:08pm

Who wrote the following about Binyamin Netanyahu's election in 1996?

In the coming weeks you will read many analyses of the Israeli election, but for my money you can reduce the outcome to four words: The bad guys won.

Answer: Thomas Friedman.

After the Rabin assassination, Ted Koppel hosted one of his famous "town halls" title "Thou shalt not kill" and he asked Netanyahu about the (bogus) charge that Netanyahu had called Rabin a "traitor." Netanyahu produced a clip showing him shouting down a crowd calling "traitor" ("boged" in Hebrew) and saying "He is mistaken, he is not a traitor." (I'm working from memory.) So Friedman's recollection about Israel is somewhat faulty.

Finally, it's worth recalling that Rabin gave as good as he got (rhetorically). Jeff Jacoby wrote at the time:

Only by the barest majority -- 61-59 -- did parliament vote last month to ratify the accord with the PLO. Two weeks earlier, a national poll found that 56 percent of Israelis rated the peace process "bad" or "very bad." The world applauded Rabin -- as now, heartsick, it eulogizes him -- for his willingness to reach out in peace to the Arab enemies he had fought for so long. The final tragedy of this man is that he could not extend the same hand of peace to his opponents at home.

There are three things to remember:
1) The invective in Israeli politics went both ways in 1995.
2) Netanyahu - contrary to Friedman's selective memory - did try to fight the more extreme rhetoric on his side.
3) Friedman is no one to lecture us on civility in politics.

427 Right Brain  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:27:05pm

re: #193 drcordell

The standard Al Gore advocated for was not a full recount. If every ballot in every county had been recounted, Gore would have won.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I am sure that the 2000 Florida election will be debated for the rest of our lives, much like the Kennedy assassination still is.

Only one question, drcordell, how many time zones in the State of Florida?

428 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:28:19pm

re: #426 dhg4

Yes, I know all that -- in fact, I've criticized Friedman heavily for many of his past columns.

His point in this article is right on the money, though.

429 BlackFedora  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:47:26pm

I pray for President Obama's safety from assassins. I don't like his politics. I may even detest them but I love my country more and I realize that Obama taking a bullet could rip this country apart. Anybody who wants that for our country is lying about their love for it.

430 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 2:59:16pm

re: #428 Charles

Yes, I know all that -- in fact, I've criticized Friedman heavily for many of his past columns.

Indeed you have, and those were much appreciated and insightful criticisms.

His point in this article is right on the money, though.

But for it to be on the money, wouldn't Obama have to be as dead as Rabin after trying to broker a deal with Bin Laden similar to Rabin's deal with Arafat? Obviously Obama is not dead--in fact our tax dollars are ensuring he remains the most heavily protected public figure ever (which Friedman conveniently ignores). Nor is Obama trying to broker a peace deal with Al Qaeda. To make the analogy worth dreaming up, both those hypothetical disasters would need to happen. Even then I'm still not keen on Friedman comparing the crazy right in the US to the right in Israel, let alone Obama to Rabin. It's just a hugely loaded analogy catering to the left's martyrdom fantasy and anti-Israel agenda, and I guess I just need to suck it up and accept that you see it differently.

431 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:00:54pm

re: #430 gremal

I guess I just need to suck it up and accept that you see it differently.

Indeed.

432 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #150 Lola

Could one important difference be the quasi-erotic charge BO's defenders have gotten--since he became a nominee--from the prospect of a BO assassination? Might explain why TF wrote the passage above now, and not in 2006.

re: #160 Charles

What. The. Hell.

I do see the point of this part of Lola's comment, at least as far as the more worshipful Obamaphiles are concerned. Messiah figures - in order to truly be messiah figures - have to die, usually at the hands of their own people. That is the entrance into the realm of legend and myth.

Of course it helps if it's a willing self-sacrifice.

And it really helps if there's a subsequent resurrection.

433 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:24:25pm

re: #148 Chekote

Friedman is a hack. Also, I find it ironic that the same people who told that that Obama's association with racist, anti-semite Wright was just a "distraction" are now having a cow about the racists signs at tea parties.

If that's referring to me, I suggest you read the LGF archives and see what I wrote about Rev. Wright.

434 Chekote  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:44:12pm

re: #433 Charles

I was not referring to you Charles. I was talking about the HuffPo crowd.

435 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:48:32pm

I just read the Friedman piece and could not agree more in principle. Here is the thing I'd like to promote-Since a Democrat has an obvious interest in slamming the Republicans and vice versa... Perhaps the discipline job falls to Republicans to police Republican rhetoric and of course the same for the rest of us. We Americans must reject the hot rhetoric, insults and denigrations from our own side of the aisle FIRST. Are we not Americans first and partisans second?

Chekote-Friedman is no hack, you may disagree of course but he certainly has skills well beyond "hack". And I say this as an example of whats gone wrong-Somehow we can only respect those who agree. Uh its devolved to a Preacher and Choir relationship. Not a healthy thing. Evolution may only go forward in DNA, but its certainly goes either way on the RNC or DNC.

People-We are Americans, not "Repugnicans" and "Damnocrats". I wrote the other day about the ratings bias feedback loop. Outrageous rhetoric begets ratings begets outrageous responses bets ratings etc etc. Stop it!
I think the best thing about this blog (apart from Charles amazing scoops on fauxtography and fraud) is its a home for the moderate thinking person who cares about things news and political. Thanks Charles!!

436 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:49:16pm

re: #428 Charles

Yes, I know all that -- in fact, I've criticized Friedman heavily for many of his past columns.

His point in this article is right on the money, though.

I am as big a defender of Israel as you will find. I am ashamed to say that you are correct. The political atmosphere in Israel at the time of Rabin's assassination were hideously poisonous and the screams and yells for bad things to happen to Rabin, the delegitimization of him and the winking of political opponents was in exact parallel.

There are however, two very important distinctions.

1. The whacko right in Israel was going overboard because of a real and external enemy. The wacko right in America sees other Americans as the enemy, and there is a giant twinge of racism.

2. There was the very substantive point that giving up land for peace with the Palestinians was unlikely to work and that it would ultimately put Israel into a dangerous and weakened position. This is exactly what happened. I am in no way defending the behavior of the Israeli right in how they responded to the issue. The point that I am making was that there was at least, at the core of it, a legitimate objection to be made. In America, instead, they are up in arms for the sake of being up in arms. Healthcare - however much you may disagree with the economics of the policy, and there is room for debate, is not worth getting up in arms over. Neither is any of the other crap the whacko right is screaming about.

437 gremal  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 3:59:10pm

re: #436 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellently stated.

438 Canadian Guy  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:50:37pm

re: #228 tradewind

Send him down here. I guarantee you that half the high school students don't know the name of the first president. And half of the ones who do think he was evil and his name should be removed from everything including our currency.
But if you ask them who won best video at the recent MTV awards, they'll nail it every time.

I'm gonna let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the greatest videos of ALL TIME!!!

439 Banner  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 7:06:23pm

I don't know why everyone is piling on the Rhetoric, the extreme Right really isn't any different now than it was at the height of the Clinton presidency. Now yeah, Obama has been a lot more active in promoting socialism than Clinton ever was, and he's a lot more insulting to people than Clinton ever was (he's also a pretty poor politician by comparison). So he just pushed things a bit sooner.

But did anyone expect people to just sit there and take it? Especially after the heights the extreme Left went to the last eight years? It's payback time as far as these people are concerned, and as the only recourse they have is to yell and shout, expect a lot of yelling and shouting. Because there are very very few people in Congress or the Senate these days who are interested in reasoned debate.

I'm still surprised myself that the President took over a car company, and no one seems to care.

440 Banner  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 7:19:48pm

Quick question: Did Friedman write the same article about the left when Bush was President and they were calling for his assassination? (Please note, there are still facebook groups promoting this).

If not, then maybe Friedman should take the log out of his own eye first.

441 Ilan Toren  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 8:29:45pm

The analogy is wrong because it is based on a false reading of the history of events within Israel. The #1 instigator of the anti-Rabin posters and demonstrations (including showing Rabin in an SS uniform) is a man named Avishai Raviv, who was working at that time as a General Security Service agent provocateur. He was never prosecuted for what he did and therefore it must be assumed that his acts were done under orders from the GSS (which incidentally reported directly to Rabin). Most alarming is that Raviv knew Rabin's assassin and there was testimony to the effect that he continually egged him on "be a man" etc...

Anti-obama rhetoric aside which is as wrong as the Bushitler campaign of hte US left, Friedman is simply playing lose with the facts for the purposes of effect.

442 meh130  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 8:40:27pm

re: #59 middy

I'm sure many of us agree with you, but it no way excuses the current craziness from the right wing.

Nor does it excuse Friedman from willfully and selectively ignoring and failing to comment on the discourse of the past.

Gabriel Range's "Death Of A President", Nicholson Baker's "Checkpoint", Charlie Brooker's column in The Guardian, Jonathan Chait's column in The New Republic, Hieronymous Bang's "I'm Gonna Kill the President - A Federal Offense".

Steyn coined the phrase "Assassination Porn" in February 2008 (yes, 2008) to refer to the above Bush assassination fantasies of the left.

Kanye West (the September 2005 comments, not the September 2009 comments), Michael Moore, Linda Rondstadt, Garrison Keiler.

Howard Dean, Dick Durban, Edward Kennedy, Robert Byrd ... (my fingers are tire from typing all these unhinged leftists who compared Bush to Hitler or other fascists).

Friedman clearly seems to not know what was happening in political discourse from 2001 to 2009. Perhaps Friedman should get out of the 11,400 square foot house more.

443 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 9:09:42pm

re: #442 meh130

Nor does it excuse Friedman from willfully and selectively ignoring and failing to comment on the discourse of the past.

Gabriel Range's "Death Of A President", Nicholson Baker's "Checkpoint", Charlie Brooker's column in The Guardian, Jonathan Chait's column in The New Republic, Hieronymous Bang's "I'm Gonna Kill the President - A Federal Offense".

Steyn coined the phrase "Assassination Porn" in February 2008 (yes, 2008) to refer to the above Bush assassination fantasies of the left.

Kanye West (the September 2005 comments, not the September 2009 comments), Michael Moore, Linda Rondstadt, Garrison Keiler.

Howard Dean, Dick Durban, Edward Kennedy, Robert Byrd ... (my fingers are tire from typing all these unhinged leftists who compared Bush to Hitler or other fascists).

Friedman clearly seems to not know what was happening in political discourse from 2001 to 2009. Perhaps Friedman should get out of the 11,400 square foot house more.

meh 130 -

I believe your point is - "Turnabout is Fair Play" - It Is, and yet still may be Lousy Politics. I come not to praise or damn the "Left." I come to Bury them.

-S-

444 Ilan Toren  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 9:36:51pm

re: #436 LudwigVanQuixote

I am as big a defender of Israel as you will find. I am ashamed to say that you are correct. The political atmosphere in Israel at the time of Rabin's assassination were hideously poisonous and the screams and yells for bad things to happen to Rabin, the delegitimization of him and the winking of political opponents was in exact parallel.

There is very little parallel. First Rabin tried to institute a policy that was he explicitly denounced while running for office while Obama is trying to pass a law that will bring to fruition his campaign promises. The Israeli right was completely justified in denouncing Rabin's surprise conversion and overturning the Israeli labor ironclad rule of not talking with the PLO. Adding to the outrage was the use of bribes to bring over legislators from the right (by splintering Moledet) in order to pass Oslo. Still since the worse of the incitement was by Avishai Raviv and his Eyal group there is more tan a hint of a political smear job in this.


The parallel is a combination of historical revisionism and political hyperbole.

445 Ilan Toren  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 9:54:43pm

re: #94 lawhawk

Well I'm not the only voice in the wilderness on this. Friedman is a very problematic publicist, especially so when dealing with Israel. The Saudi plan (heavily promoted and perhaps created by Friedman) is not the first example. He is extremely partisan and associated with Peace Now. A long time and vindictive opponent of Jews living in Judea and Samaria. Smearing the Israeli right is an old habit of his and in this case he is just using a false narrative in order to promote another agenda.

While I do agree with this particular agenda, protecting Obama from American far right fringe craziness I deeply resent and object to his falsifying history along the way.

446 R.B.Glennie  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:47:00am

a point or two -

By no means do I advocate, or even `wink', at the assassination of any political leader.

I would like to point out, however, how well this `trading land for peace' that Friedman refers to as the policy of Rabin has worked out for the Israelis.

Namely: not at all.

I don't think I really not to enumerate the many ways that it hasn't, bec. most of them have been documented quite well at Little Green Footballs.

Thus, were not the criticisms of Rabin of that time fully justified?

447 Cosmic X  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 8:18:06am

I was going to comment about the Rabin nonsense, however Ilan Toren did a good job setting the record straight. Thanks Ilan!

448 shmuli  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:14:51am

Charles --

But Thomas Friedman IS a nut! Spend time becoming familiar with his absurd economic arguments and faulty reasoning. He is a left-wing partisan.

449 Lee Stafford  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 10:17:56am

discussing the subject, the column normally shouldn't be written.
Thomas Friedman's column of today is no exception. He begins by claiming that "he hates to write" about his subject -- the notion that criticism of President Obama may cause him to be assassinated. By the end of the column, Friedman looks like a fool and a hypocrite for having ignored his alleged instinct.
Pete Wehner amply demonstrates the hypocrisy bit:
I've written before about the importance of civility in public discourse and the need for what has been called the "etiquette of democracy." One question, though: When George W. Bush was being routinely savaged by those on the Left--including prominent Democrats like Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Harry Reid--where were those Friedman columns of ringing condemnation? I don't recall them; perhaps you do.
When there was actually a movie made about the assassination of President Bush (Death of a President), I don't recall Friedman writing about "creating the same kind of climate here that existed in Israel on the eve of the Rabin assassination."
When Hendrik Hertzberg of the New Yorker declared that Bush's "legitimacy is hard to accept," I don't recall Mr. Friedman worrying that Bush was having his legitimacy attacked by a concerted campaign from the Left (adding a mild line of criticism against liberals now, in order to gain the patina of fair-mindedness, simply underscores that Friedman was AWOL when it counted).
I should add that when Jonathan Chait of the New Republic published a piece in 2003 that began, "I hate President George W. Bush. There, I said it," one admirable New York Times columnist did speak out. His name is David Brooks. ("The quintessential new warrior scans the Web for confirmation of the president's villainy," Brooks wrote. "The core threat to democracy is not in the White House, it's the haters themselves.")
Most of us struggle with the temptation to employ double standards, to cloak political agendas in the language of moral concern and outrage. Some individuals do an admirable job resisting that temptation. Others, like Tom Friedman, do not. He would have a lot more credibility now if he had actually spoken out before.


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