1 freetoken  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:48:11am

Certain birds are notable for their ability to mimic various sounds…

2 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:48:19am

That’s funny!

Ridiculing the most ridiculous is always funny.

3 Bubblehead II  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:49:54am

That was good.

4 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:52:25am

I’m getting a message that I can’t view it because I’m outside the U.S. :(

5 Canadian Guy  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:54:20am

Here’s the video for those of us outside the U.S.

6 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:58:47am

re: #5 Canadian Guy

Thanks!

7 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:02:02am

You know, kids should not be exposed to this stuff.

Let them just be kids.

Sheesh.

8 Why I Never!  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:05:14am

re: #7 Ojoe

You know, kids should not be exposed to this stuff.

Let them just be kids.

Sheesh.

Yeah, what’s up with exposing them to the idea of eating their vegetables? Or eating healthy? or, g-d forbid, GARDENING?

Hippie crap. Communisitic. You know who else has gardens? COMMUNES.

Sheesh.

9 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:09:05am

re: #8 iceweasel

Well I meant Big Bird at the end. At least it wasn’t Miss Piggy.

10 S'latch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:09:22am

Big Bird is a birther.

11 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:09:36am

Yeah, they just want to play in dirt, not grow crap in it.

Sheesh Spice.

12 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:11:23am

re: #9 Ojoe

Well I meant Big Bird at the end. At least it wasn’t Miss Piggy.


That was dubbed in, wasn’t it?
Surely it wasn’t shown that way.

13 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:13:01am

Mrs. Obama looks great in that skit. She’s really a pretty woman with a beautiful smile. & good for her that she can laugh at it all.

14 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:14:43am

What’s more anti-capitalist than growing your own food?

I’m patriotic by purchasing healthy fried food from establishments that employ people. The fructose lobby needs to feed their kids too or else they’ll have to grow their own food.

15 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:16:10am

I laughed so hard that all my sleepiness went away! I especially love how the veggies were dubbed perfectly and how Elmo nods his head at precisely the right moment…

16 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:16:12am

re: #12 reine.de.tout

I don’t know, I don’t have a TV that’s hooked up to “TV”.

Anybody see this on the air?

17 albusteve  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:17:08am

re: #16 Ojoe

I don’t know, I don’t have a TV that’s hooked up to “TV”.

Anybody see this on the air?

it’s a spoof

18 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:17:46am

re: #17 albusteve

Oh good.

19 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:18:41am

david letterman admits sexual affairs - extortion

David Letterman told the audience of his late night talk show that he had sexual relationships with female members of his staff, adding that he’d forked over a bogus $2 million check as part of an extortion plot on the matter.

Letterman revealed to the studio audience that he received a package three weeks ago containing a threat to reveal those indiscretions “if Letterman did not pay the individual a large sum of money” — specified in a later communication as $2 million.

blah blah blah.

20 irish rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:21:30am

I love it!

21 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:22:03am

However, the progressive caucus is a pretty socialist bunch.
.According to the letter, most caucus members prefer a single-payer health care system, but a public plan option should be included “at minimum.”
Single-payer is the Socialist health care found in Canada and Europe, as we all know. And while it’s great if you are healthy, the horror stories of a government run system are pretty well known.

Progressives think liberals are too conservative.

22 Pullus Iulius  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:22:07am

re: #19 bluecheese

I’ve already been asked today what I thought of the letterman thing. Ohh…nothing. Though I am willing to stipulate that extortion is bad.

23 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:22:18am

Morning

Twenty four degrees here this morning…

24 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:23:35am

re: #21 FrogMarch

However, the progressive caucus is a pretty socialist bunch.
.According to the letter, most caucus members prefer a single-payer health care system, but a public plan option should be included “at minimum.”
Single-payer is the Socialist health care found in Canada and Europe, as we all know. And while it’s great if you are healthy, the horror stories of a government run system are pretty well known.

Progressives think liberals are too conservative.

Correction, progressives think everyone is to conservative. Read a few copies of “The Nation.”

25 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:24:34am

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

Correction, progressives think everyone is to conservative. Read a few copies of “The Nation.”

Everyone, including liberals…

26 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:24:56am

re: #22 Pullus Iulius

I’ve already been asked today what I thought of the letterman thing. Ohh…nothing. Though I am willing to stipulate that extortion is bad.


Yep. I mean he was single… No?

Somewhere people are having sex… Let’s focus on it.

27 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:26:27am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Morning

Twenty four degrees here this morning…

It’s like, about 85 here.

28 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:26:59am

re: #19 bluecheese

david letterman admits sexual affairs - extortion

blah blah blah.

I’m certain there’s a joke in there somewhere about Letterman being a dirty old man-slut.

29 Pullus Iulius  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:27:40am

re: #26 bluecheese

Yep. I mean he was single… No?

Somewhere people are having sex… Let’s focus on it.

Yep. Single. And fabulously wealthy. Caution: May cause sex.

30 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:28:36am

re: #26 bluecheese

Somewhere people are having sex… Let’s focus on it.

I’d prefer we not focus on Letterman having sex, or even snuggling for that matter. But then again:

Top Ten Reasons to Not Give a Shit About This.

31 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:28:50am

re: #21 FrogMarch

However, the progressive caucus is a pretty socialist bunch.
.According to the letter, most caucus members prefer a single-payer health care system, but a public plan option should be included “at minimum.”
Single-payer is the Socialist health care found in Canada and Europe, as we all know. And while it’s great if you are healthy, the horror stories of a government run system are pretty well known.

Progressives think liberals are too conservative.

I’m in favor of single payer - label me whatever you want.

Isn’t that what medicare is?

32 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:29:41am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Morning

Twenty four degrees here this morning…

Must be slightly above freezing here. My impatiens are still standing.

33 Marcus Dracon  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:30:15am

Can’t view outside the US. :(

34 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:30:50am

re: #28 FrogMarch

I’m certain there’s a joke in there somewhere about Letterman being a dirty old man-slut.

Actually I don’t find anything funny about this. Here is a guy who has crossed from being an entertainer to making deep-cutting political comments on his show in the guise of comedy, and many of his comments have been about this or that sexual adventure, this or that personality or politician, and when called on it, he has come back swinging.

He tried to destroy Palin.

Yet we find out that he is a guilty as most of his targets for the same sort of behavior.

Not funny at all.

Really

35 Irish Rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:30:50am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Morning

Twenty four degrees here this morning…

How much snow did you get and even more important, were you able to get out of your driveway and drive down into town?

36 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:32:23am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Not funny, but disgusting.

In a decent society, people would quit watching.

37 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:32:35am

re: #30 BigPapa

I’d prefer we not focus on Letterman having sex, or even snuggling for that matter. But then again:

Top Ten Reasons to Not Give a Shit About This.

Reason #1

Sooo Letterman has sex?!?! Who knew?

38 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:33:14am

re: #31 bluecheese

I’m in favor of single payer - label me whatever you want.

Isn’t that what medicare is?

Sort of. I don’t think most people want Medicare for all.
Medicare is supplemental insurance set up to help the poor and the elderly.
Medicare is also broke. Medicare’s total unfunded liability is more than five times larger than that of Social Security.

39 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:34:32am

re: #35 Irish Rose

How much snow did you get and even more important, were you able to get out of your driveway and drive down into town?

No, the snow held up yesterday on the west side of the Continental Divide, so not a flake here.

I have yet had the pleasure of trying to get down to work from 8200 feet on snow packed roads.

But, it’s coming, sooner than later probably, after all, this is Colorado, and we already had 4 inches a week ago up here, but it didn’t stick on the roads.

40 Chekote  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:34:42am
He tried to destroy Palin.


Palin destroyed herself. Let’s quit blaming others for her behavior.

41 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:34:52am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Yeah - it’s more pathetic than funny. It’s more hypocritical than funny.
I think the guy is a jerk.

42 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:37:26am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Yet we find out that he is a guilty as most of his targets for the same sort of behavior.

Not funny at all.

Really

I disagree.

1. He was single.

2. Letterman doesn’t preach/legislate about “family values”.

People have sex everywhere. It’s the hypocrisy that’s the issue.

43 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:38:01am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Actually I don’t find anything funny about this. Here is a guy who has crossed from being an entertainer to making deep-cutting political comments on his show in the guise of comedy, and many of his comments have been about this or that sexual adventure, this or that personality or politician, and when called on it, he has come back swinging.

He tried to destroy Palin.

Yet we find out that he is a guilty as most of his targets for the same sort of behavior.

Not funny at all.

Really

I find it ironic that we hear all of these types of stories from the left, yet the onerous ‘Sexual Harassment’ classes I received in the ’90s while I was in the Army all would say that his relationships were improper. The ‘irony’ of these classes during the Clinton years was not unnoticed, either.

We had these classes more often than we were able to go to the rifle range, more often than we went to field exercises, more often than we had PT tests, and so on. I would usually comment, “Is this where we learn how to sexually harass people? Because I don’t know how to do that.” The main problem with sexual harassment is not lack of ‘training’ about it; a person who is likely to sexually harass another has a moral/ethical problem. I never witnessed a guy during these classes leap up with a revelation and say, “I understand it now - goosing women in the hallway is wrong!”

44 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:39:37am

re: #42 bluecheese

I disagree.

1. He was single.

2. Letterman doesn’t preach/legislate about “family values”.

People have sex everywhere. It’s the hypocrisy that’s the issue.


So was Palins daughter single. Palins daughter was not a politican. I don’t care about the sex, it’s the principles involved, which evidently he has none of.

Play again.

45 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:41:51am

re: #38 FrogMarch

Sort of. I don’t think most people want Medicare for all.
Medicare is supplemental insurance set up to help the poor and the elderly.
Medicare is also broke. Medicare’s total unfunded liability is more than five times larger than that of Social Security.

#1 I want Medicare for all.
#2 Fund it.

We pay *more* than countries with single payer systems.

46 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:41:52am

re: #42 bluecheese

I disagree.

1. He was single.

2. Letterman doesn’t preach/legislate about “family values”.

People have sex everywhere. It’s the hypocrisy that’s the issue.

I’m not sure he’s single, but apart from that, I could care less what consenting adults do.

47 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:42:05am

re: #43 Dreader1962

“I understand it now - goosing women in the hallway is wrong!”


Rotating Title Nomination.

48 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:42:34am

re: #46 insert name here

I’m not sure he’s single, but apart from that, I could care less what consenting adults do.

I’m not sure either.

49 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:43:20am

re: #44 Walter L. Newton

So was Palins daughter single. Palins daughter was not a politican. I don’t care about the sex, it’s the principles involved, which evidently he has none of.

Play again.

Having sex with employees of a “lower” pay-grade, who depend on you for their livlihood, is fine?

50 Irish Rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:43:32am

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

No, the snow held up yesterday on the west side of the Continental Divide, so not a flake here.

I have yet had the pleasure of trying to get down to work from 8200 feet on snow packed roads.

But, it’s coming, sooner than later probably, after all, this is Colorado, and we already had 4 inches a week ago up here, but it didn’t stick on the roads.

I envy you, living up there… it must be gorgeous.

I’m an empath/HSP, the type of artistic person who really thrives on quiet and solitude. I’m easily overwhelmed by other peoples’ emotions and when I’ve had enough of the world, I tend to shut myself away from everyone and everything for a while so that I can recharge.

It wouldn’t bother me at all to be snowed in for days up there in Gods’ country.

You’re very fortunate.

51 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:43:56am

LOL Too funny.

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, the Obamas are making good on their promises to young people in this country. One of Obama’s goals is to make this country the leader in education, which we should be. If he can get the healthcare issues ironed out, I suspect education will be close behind. In the meanwhile, he and Michelle spend a lot of time with kids, little kids and college kids. I think it’s fantastic.

52 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:44:07am

re: #44 Walter L. Newton

So was Palins daughter single. Palins daughter was not a politican. I don’t care about the sex, it’s the principles involved, which evidently he has none of.

Play again.

I agree that the crack at Palin’s daughter was scummy.

That was awful.

53 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:45:02am

re: #45 bluecheese

#1 I want Medicare for all.
#2 Fund it.

We pay *more* than countries with single payer systems.

We also pay for a lot more people than most of those countries, our patients don’t have to wait to see the doctor, get routine tests or surgery. We also have better outcomes than many of those countries —especially in cancer care.

54 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:45:07am

“U.S. jobless rate hits 9.8 percent

10/02/2009 07:01 AM MDT - The unemployment rate rose to 9.8 percent in September as employers cut far more jobs than expected, evidence that the longest recession since the 1930s is still inflicting widespread pain. “

This is really good, it could have been 10 percent.

[Link: www.denverpost.com…]

Just an observation. I have 158 emails in my “Job Search” mail box for the year 2009. These are 158 emails with resumes attached, applications for programming jobs that I highly qualify for. I never apply for a job that I don’t qualify for. I have 25 years in computer technology. And these companies I applied to are confirmed good leads, not pipe dreams.

I have not received ONE SINGLE REPLY back this year, not even for a simple “first look” phone interview.

Hows Obama working out for you all?

55 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:45:58am

re: #48 bluecheese

Letterman has been married since this year…

56 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:45:59am

re: #42 bluecheese

I disagree.

1. He was single.

2. Letterman doesn’t preach/legislate about “family values”.

People have sex everywhere. It’s the hypocrisy that’s the issue.

He’s married, and has been with the same domestic partner since for a long, long time (1980’s I think).

Play again.

57 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:46:45am

re: #52 bluecheese

I agree that the crack at Palin’s daughter was scummy.

That was awful.

Agreed. And so was Limbaugh’s crack about Chelsea Clinton being the “White House Dog.”

58 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:46:57am

re: #45 bluecheese

We pay *more* than countries with single payer systems.

Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that. Since it costs more than Europe is that why the government should take it over or ‘just fund it?’

59 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:47:04am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton


.

I have not received ONE SINGLE REPLY back this year, not even for a simple “first look” phone interview.

Hows Obama working out for you all?

What would you have Obama do to reduce the unemployment #’s?

60 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:47:39am

You know, money is suppossed to make men sexy —some primal thing.

That doesn’t seem to apply (IMHO) to two men that I can think of right now:

Letterman and

Bill Gates.


I wouldn’t touch either of them with a 10 foot pole in 100 years.

61 Irish Rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:48:03am

re: #52 bluecheese

I agree that the crack at Palin’s daughter was scummy.

That was awful.

It used to be an unwritten, unspoken given in politics that you leave the children alone.

We’ve breached that formality in the name of modern politics. Children are now legitimate, exploitable targets… and I doubt that it will ever go back to the way that it was. Sad.

62 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:48:17am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

This economy sucks. There are no projects on my drafting boards. In 6-8 months there will be no crews building, with a multiplier effect of 20. I’ve sent in an application to drive busses.

It is folly to have ignited a shouting match about health care without first fixing the economy, and it is trivial to pitch for the Olympics in Chicago when the Mullahs are building the bomb.

But that’s just my opinion.

63 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:48:44am

re: #50 Irish Rose

I envy you, living up there… it must be gorgeous.

I’m an empath/HSP, the type of artistic person who really thrives on quiet and solitude. I’m easily overwhelmed by other peoples’ emotions and when I’ve had enough of the world, I tend to shut myself away from everyone and everything for a while so that I can recharge.

It wouldn’t bother me at all to be snowed in for days up there in Gods’ country.

You’re very fortunate.

Considering how broke I am, yes, fortunate. My girlfriend wonderful. And I do contribute to the financial situation of the family here, but it does bother me that I don’t make the kind of money that I am use to.

Not for the personal gain, but I am so use to sharing my money with others, both family needs and friends and charity. I can’t do that as much anymore, this family comes first.

64 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:48:52am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

I have not received ONE SINGLE REPLY back this year, not even for a simple “first look” phone interview.

Hows Obama working out for you all?

Am sorry to hear about this; as an unemployed Architect, I know where you’re coming from. However, how would a McCain presidency be any different in this situation?

65 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:50:15am

re: #45 bluecheese

#1 I want Medicare for all.
#2 Fund it.

We pay *more* than countries with single payer systems.

I don’t.

Sometimes people are selfish and they want stuff that’s not good for the majority of this nation. Hey - I know – let us spend 900 billion to insure 13 million. Do that math on that one. It will kill our economy.

Considering the polls, most of America doesn’t want what you want.
In other words, most of America does not want to ruin the nation’s economy for “Medicare for all” -or- “single payer” -or- socialized government run health care.
But you are free to help pay for it.
Want to put some skin in the game? Or do you just expect a free governmetn hand out? Where does the money come from? Do you assume production?

To fund it we would have to raise taxes.
The lowest marginal tax bracket of 10 percent would have to rise to 26 percent. The 25 percent marginal tax bracket would increase to 66 percent.
The current highest marginal tax bracket (35 percent) would have to rise to 92 percent. Then we can pay for Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. That doesn’t include the new single payer health care plan the progressives are demanding against a majority of public opinion.

66 bluecheese  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:50:21am

re: #58 BigPapa

Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that. Since it costs more than Europe is that why the government should take it over or ‘just fund it?’

It keeps taking a bigger, and bigger chunk out of my fucking paychecks.

Mine just went up goddammit.

The system is broken - why can’t we do what’s been proven to work.

67 HoosierHoops  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:50:47am

Good Morning Lizards!
Crap that video was funnier than heck!

68 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:51:02am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

Considering how broke I am, yes, fortunate. My girlfriend wonderful. And I do contribute to the financial situation of the family here, but it does bother me that I don’t make the kind of money that I am use to.

Not for the personal gain, but I am so use to sharing my money with others, both family needs and friends and charity. I can’t do that as much anymore, this family comes first.

re: #64 Surabaya Stew

Am sorry to hear about this; as an unemployed Architect, I know where you’re coming from. However, how would a McCain presidency be any different in this situation?

re: #62 Ojoe

This economy sucks. There are no projects on my drafting boards. In 6-8 months there will be no crews building, with a multiplier effect of 20. I’ve sent in an application to drive busses.

It is folly to have ignited a shouting match about health care without first fixing the economy, and it is trivial to pitch for the Olympics in Chicago when the Mullahs are building the bomb.

But that’s just my opinion.

I’d like to say it is comforting to see others in the same boat as I am. But it isn’t; it’s depressing. But to blame Obama is to ignore the last 15 years of economic policy (democrat and republican) which have been building up to this mess. Obama is simply adding his shovel-load.

69 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:51:50am
70 Chekote  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:52:13am

I posted this video yesterday and got no updings. :(

It is really funny and also it should tell the GOP that they need to move away from the crazies. Fast.

71 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:52:36am

re: #59 bluecheese

What would you have Obama do to reduce the unemployment #’s?

Why are you asking me? Unless I am missing something, it was he who made campaign promise after promise that he would turn unemployment around. Go ask him.

Go find out yourself where most of the stimulus money went to (existing special interests and big business), check out how much of the stimulus money actually filtered down to actual spending AFTER the administrative costs were raked off the top. You do a little research, cause, I already have, and I am not talking out my ass like some people.

Play again?

72 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:52:52am

re: #69 MandyManners

Happy Birthday, Snoopy!

[Link: www.darkharbor.com…]

A thousand updings to you! Perfect timing as I was just slipping into a depressive funk.

73 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:53:08am

re: #69 MandyManners

Happy Birthday, Snoopy!

[Link: www.darkharbor.com…]

Yeah! Happy Dance time!!!

(BTW, how old is Snoopy?)

74 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:53:52am

re: #73 insert name here

Yeah! Happy Dance time!!!

(BTW, how old is Snoopy?)

As much as I love that ole’ beagle, it is way too early in the morning for the Happy Dance.

75 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:54:01am

re: #66 bluecheese

It keeps taking a bigger, and bigger chunk out of my fucking paychecks.

Mine just went up goddammit.

The system is broken - why can’t we do what’s been proven to work.

You seem to think that if the government takes it over the money won’t come out of your pocket. End the end it still does just by other avenues. By what metric to you deem these other systems ‘proven to work’ or this system ‘broken?’

76 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:54:03am

re: #64 Surabaya Stew

Am sorry to hear about this; as an unemployed Architect, I know where you’re coming from. However, how would a McCain presidency be any different in this situation?

Where did I mention McCain? You must be new here. If you know me, I think the whole lot of idiots in DC should be thrown out. So, don’t try to push me into a partisan position. I have enough problems with ALL politicians.

77 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:54:55am

re: #65 FrogMarch

Not sure about all those scary numbers and not even sure taxes would have to be raised. And if taxes are raised, it could be very nominal.

Why can’t the insurance costs be covered in the premiums? Do you pay auto insurance? Home insurance? Are you aware that YOU’RE PAYING for Joe Blow down the street when he puts in a claim? Or that Joe Blow is paying FOR YOU when you put in a claim?

Good grief, ya think the Republicans just landed on this planet in January or something.

78 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:55:12am

This is a very clever video.
And the actress they got to play the First Lady is a great double!

79 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:55:28am

re: #66 bluecheese

It keeps taking a bigger, and bigger chunk out of my fucking paychecks.

Mine just went up goddammit.

The system is broken - why can’t we do what’s been proven to work.

If you’ve lived in Europe, you would understand that they are taxed to death. Would you pay a tax on each room in your house? This is why the typical house over there does not have closets, because that would count as a ‘room’ for tax purposes. This is why they use amoires. Would you pay a tax on each and every TV and radio that you own, to include your clock radio by your bed? Would you pay a tax on the chimney on your house? How about VAT?

You think that you have a big chunk taken out now, but at least you currently have choices. What you advocate will take a ‘big chunk’ out of your paycheck and we will STILL have an unsolvable debt and huge deficits each fiscal year.

80 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:55:45am

re: #78 Spare O’Lake

This is a very clever video.
And the actress they got to play the First Lady is a great double!

The head of lettuce looked just like Glen Beck!

81 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:56:25am

Signing off for the holiday! See you all tomorrow night (which will be Saturday AM for you in the U.S.)

82 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:57:36am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Not sure about all those scary numbers and not even sure taxes would have to be raised. And if taxes are raised, it could be very nominal.

Why can’t the insurance costs be covered in the premiums? Do you pay auto insurance? Home insurance? Are you aware that YOU’RE PAYING for Joe Blow down the street when he puts in a claim? Or that Joe Blow is paying FOR YOU when you put in a claim?

Good grief, ya think the Republicans just landed on this planet in January or something.

Because if they pay only the named perils (what the policy states) then they get taken to court and lose. The range of services involved in covered health care has gotten so broad. The insurance model no longer applies.

Insurance is about reducing risk. It just doesn’t work the way it used to when health insurance meant 80/20.

83 HoosierHoops  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:57:45am

re: #80 sattv4u2

The head of lettuce looked just like Glen Beck!

Poor Big Bird.. He had just returned from a Tea Party and wasn’t quite himself…
/Guest of Joe Wilson

84 Irish Rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:57:46am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

Considering how broke I am, yes, fortunate. My girlfriend wonderful. And I do contribute to the financial situation of the family here, but it does bother me that I don’t make the kind of money that I am use to.

Not for the personal gain, but I am so use to sharing my money with others, both family needs and friends and charity. I can’t do that as much anymore, this family comes first.

My employment situation up here in Michigan is just as woeful as yours and perhaps more so. I’ll spare you the details, all I’ll say is that I’ve lost three good paying jobs over the last three years to this wretched economy.

I couldn’t have chosen a worse possible time for me to get out of a bad marriage and strike out on my own. It had to be done though, so like everyone else up here in Michigan I’m just hanging on until the economy starts to recover. I’m also taking college courses to retrain for a more viable career.

Positive steps forward are always better than negative steps backward, even if the payoff isn’t immediate.

85 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:57:50am

re: #75 BigPapa

You seem to think that if the government takes it over the money won’t come out of your pocket. End the end it still does just by other avenues. By what metric to you deem these other systems ‘proven to work’ or this system ‘broken?’

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good. IIRC, 5 year survivability for coronary disease, as well as cancer, was only a little bit better for us compared to the best of the European plans.

86 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:58:03am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Why are you asking me? Unless I am missing something, it was he who made campaign promise after promise that he would turn unemployment around. Go ask him.

Go find out yourself where most of the stimulus money went to (existing special interests and big business), check out how much of the stimulus money actually filtered down to actual spending AFTER the administrative costs were raked off the top. You do a little research, cause, I already have, and I am not talking out my ass like some people.

Play again?

Hey, near where I live they put up a sign on a road construction project extolling the virtues of the stimulus package - but the road construction project was already underway when the stimulus package was passed. I guess it paid for the sign?

Show of hands here - how many people have seen an actual start-up of a project (you know - those ‘shovel-ready’ projects) funded by the stimulus package?

87 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:58:10am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Not sure about all those scary numbers and not even sure taxes would have to be raised. And if taxes are raised, it could be very nominal.

Why can’t the insurance costs be covered in the premiums? Do you pay auto insurance? Home insurance? Are you aware that YOU’RE PAYING for Joe Blow down the street when he puts in a claim? Or that Joe Blow is paying FOR YOU when you put in a claim?

Good grief, ya think the Republicans just landed on this planet in January or something.

Premiums? A single payer system is “free”.

88 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:58:46am

re: #42 bluecheese

I disagree.

1. He was single.

2. Letterman doesn’t preach/legislate about “family values”.

People have sex everywhere. It’s the hypocrisy that’s the issue.

Maybe. This came up downstairs. When the boss starts boinking the staff, it raises questions about harassment.

Not saying that happened here, only that it’s a strong possibility.

89 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:58:56am

It is extremely simplistic and a mistake to compare health insurance to car or homeowners insurance.

90 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:59:06am

re: #51 marjoriemoon

The promise to kids is working out? How about an unemployment rate of 25% or more for those high schoolers and college trying to find jobs to make ends meet? That’s a direct result of the increased minimum wage that the Democrats pushed through. Instead of creating jobs, the higher minimum wage eliminates jobs and reduces new job opportunities.

The overall unemployment rate is now 9.8% or nearly 2 full points higher than the Administration claimed things would get with the stimulus package in place. And there’s little sign that things are going to get better; particularly as GM winds down Saturn and Pontiac and sheds Hummer and Saab. Sales are down huge for Ford and Chrysler in September as a hangover effect from cash for clunkers takes hold (I warned ya!).

Focusing on education is critical to future competitiveness, and the need to improve education around the nation must be a priority, but so too is the need to make sure that whatever money is spent on education actually ends up in the classroom and not in the massive bureaucracy that functionally inhibits education.

Case in point, I have relatives who are teachers in the NYC school system who get a curriculum from the Dept of Education, and they change the curriculum every few years, even if there’s no good reason to do so. It’s asinine and done so that the upper management can say that they’re doing their jobs, as opposed to improving the actual classroom experience. Besides, everything is geared to passing competency exams, not actually learning or critical thinking - skills necessary for life, let alone work.

91 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:59:30am

re: #85 insert name here

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good. IIRC, 5 year survivability for coronary disease, as well as cancer, was only a little bit better for us compared to the best of the European plans.

A little better could be your life. How much is that worth to you? How much more would you be willing to pay if it meant that YOU get to live? Do you really want the government making the decision that your life isn’t worth the extra dime?

92 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:59:46am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Do you pay auto insurance? Home insurance? Are you aware that YOU’RE PAYING for Joe Blow down the street when he puts in a claim? Or that Joe Blow is paying FOR YOU when you put in a claim?

Apples/ Oranges.

In the case of auto or home ins, the ins companies only have to pay out on catastrophic claims (car accidents,,, home fires/ floods etc)
They don’t pay out every time your car needs an oil change or new wipers , as in health ins when you go see a doctor because you have a cough or a fever

93 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 6:59:59am

re: #79 Dreader1962

The average tax burden in many European countries is equal to that in the U.S. or lower, depending on local variables. Note Switzerland, which has the highest quality of living (based on recent polls) and the city - Zurich - with the highest desirability amongst expatriates.
[Link: www.google.com…]

94 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:00:01am

re: #82 ggt

Because if they pay only the named perils (what the policy states) then they get taken to court and lose. The range of services involved in covered health care has gotten so broad. The insurance model no longer applies.

Insurance is about reducing risk. It just doesn’t work the way it used to when health insurance meant 80/20.

Also, my auto insurance and home insurance does not pay for maintenance. There is absolutely no parallel between the two insurance categories, and I wish people would stop bringing them up.

95 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:00:21am

re: #82 ggt

Because if they pay only the named perils (what the policy states) then they get taken to court and lose. The range of services involved in covered health care has gotten so broad. The insurance model no longer applies.

Insurance is about reducing risk. It just doesn’t work the way it used to when health insurance meant 80/20.

I’m not following you. I’m covered 80/20 if I stay in-network on my PPO. I also pay through the nose for that coverage. I’m also paying for other people who use insurance.

96 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:00:46am

re: #72 imp_62

A thousand updings to you! Perfect timing as I was just slipping into a depressive funk.

It lifts my spirits, too.

97 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:01:02am

re: #73 insert name here

Yeah! Happy Dance time!!!

(BTW, how old is Snoopy?)

59.

98 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:01:08am

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

Where did I mention McCain? You must be new here. If you know me, I think the whole lot of idiots in DC should be thrown out. So, don’t try to push me into a partisan position. I have enough problems with ALL politicians.

Yes, I am new here; thought that should be pretty obvious to old-timers here. Never said you mentioned McCain, was just asking that as he was the only serious alternative to Obama, how would today’s unemployment situation be any different were he running the show?

And no, this is not a partisan position I’m pushing you into; frankly, I feel the only difference between McCain and Obama is that rather than wasting our money on a stimulus package, he’d be wasting it on a new war.

99 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:01:41am

re: #74 ggt

As much as I love that ole’ beagle, it is way too early in the morning for the Happy Dance.

It’s never too early for the Happy Dance!

100 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:01:58am

re: #99 MandyManners

It’s never too early for the Happy Dance!

in bed

101 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:02:10am

re: #87 FrogMarch

Premiums? A single payer system is “free”.

Show me anything, an article, a TV show, anything where Obama states we’re moving to a single payor system. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

102 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:02:22am

re: #94 Dreader1962

gmta (92)

103 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:02:42am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

You can actually shop around for car or home insurance - and you can choose your level of coverage. That’s something that is fundamentally absent in health care, primarily because it is usually employer-provided. But even when the employer provides several options, you don’t get a true range of options since the states mandate the minimum levels of coverage, which in the case of NY or NJ drives up the costs to such a degree that it puts obtaining even minimum coverage out of the reach of many people.

If states were forced to accept coverage acceptable in other states, the cost of coverage would drop because of the increased competition. That would drive down costs and prices to the consumer. Increasing transparency in the cost of care would drive down costs. What the Administration and Democrats propose is simply shifting who pays and how it gets paid - and puts a government entity in charge of the cost controls.

104 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:03:12am

re: #95 marjoriemoon

I’m not following you. I’m covered 80/20 if I stay in-network on my PPO. I also pay through the nose for that coverage. I’m also paying for other people who use insurance.

Old 80/20 major medical did not pay for doctor visits, routine tests —pap, blood etc, or prescriptions. Remember when if you wanted TV in your hospital room you had to pay for it yourself? Now WE all pay and we can’t afford it.

The lawyers, IMHO, and politicans are skimming way too much.

105 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:03:16am

re: #86 Dreader1962

Hey, near where I live they put up a sign on a road construction project extolling the virtues of the stimulus package - but the road construction project was already underway when the stimulus package was passed. I guess it paid for the sign?

Show of hands here - how many people have seen an actual start-up of a project (you know - those ‘shovel-ready’ projects) funded by the stimulus package?

Well, where I am the road work started about the same time as the sign, which meant it was going ahead, but Mass got federal money to pay for it.
So Deval Patrick and the legislature have found somewhere else to spend the money they were going to spend, and probably someplace less useful than a road that really needed resurfacing. (RT. 2 in the Harvard area, for those who know the area. The surface was so bad that going uphill in the rain was always risky.)

106 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:03:40am
re: #66 bluecheese
It keeps taking a bigger, and bigger chunk out of my fucking paychecks.
Mine just went up goddammit.

You get paychecks for that? Any seasonal part-time available?

107 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:03:52am

re: #84 Irish Rose

My employment situation up here in Michigan is just as woeful as yours and perhaps more so. I’ll spare you the details, all I’ll say is that I’ve lost three good paying jobs over the last three years to this wretched economy.

I couldn’t have chosen a worse possible time for me to get out of a bad marriage and strike out on my own. It had to be done though, so like everyone else up here in Michigan I’m just hanging on until the economy starts to recover. I’m also taking college courses to retrain for a more viable career.

Positive steps forward are always better than negative steps backward, even if the payoff isn’t immediate.

Agreed. And I am not starving, but I went from 82,00 a year 5 years ago, to 18,000 a year two years ago and now down to 8,400 a year now. And I have adjusted each time, I’m not in debt to dozens of people, and I contribute what I can.

But I know I am probably not going to ever have a decent paying IT job again. And every week that I am away from the industry, I am loosing ground.

I looking to retail right now. I like to stay busy, and I would rather work 40 hours a week at minimum wage than the 3 days a week, 118 hours a month I am presently working, for 700 cash (contract). That 5.93 an hour.

Retail will be fine, I like to work.

108 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:05:17am

re: #106 Spare O’Lake

You get paychecks for that? Any seasonal part-time available?

Welcome back.

109 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:06:27am

re: #101 marjoriemoon

Show me anything, an article, a TV show, anything where Obama states we’re moving to a single payor system. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.


There are Youtube videos that show Obama saying outright that “if we could start over, he would prefer a single payer system”.
To be fair, he has backed off, but obviously that is due to the weight of public opinion. The Congressional Progressive Caucus is pushing the single payer or “public option.”

110 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:06:29am

re: #100 sattv4u2

in bed

If you have a Tempur-Pedic mattress, you won’t bug the other person when you do the Happy Dance!

111 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:17am

re: #103 lawhawk

You can actually shop around for car or home insurance - and you can choose your level of coverage. That’s something that is fundamentally absent in health care, primarily because it is usually employer-provided.

If you’re not emplyoyed (like me), then you absolutely can shop around for health care (at least here in California). And the differences in plans can be confusing as heck, even for me (BS in Electrical Engineering).

112 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:21am

re: #85 insert name here

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good.

So it costs more here than there… we should change to a European model? We’ll pay half as much but it will be somewhat almost as good! That sounds great if we’re talking about ice cream or wine not about health care services.

How about reviewing specific issues with this health system to address these problems before we fundamentally and dramatically change the system. There are many ways to affect change, some bad and some good. Controlling costs usually also controls the end result, which is not always good. Part of the problems of today are the outcome of trying to control the costs: look to more of the same if we move the direction Obama wants.

113 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:23am

re: #110 MandyManners

If you have a Tempur-Pedic mattress, you won’t bug the other person when you do the Happy Dance!

Depends

King size,,, no ,,,
Twin ,,, mmm

114 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:41am

re: #109 FrogMarch

There are Youtube videos that show Obama saying outright that “if we could start over, he would prefer a single payer system.
To be fair, he has backed off, but obviously that is due to the weight of public opinion. The Congressional Progressive Caucus is pushing the single payer or “public option.”

I have a link somewhere.

115 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:49am

[Link: www.tagesanzeiger.ch…]

I haven’t the patience to translate, but the upshot is that some foreugn media are picking up on the fact that many Chicagoans have no interest in the OG. Looked for a similar report on MSNBC - in vain.

116 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:07:53am

re: #103 lawhawk

If states were forced to accept coverage acceptable in other states, the cost of coverage would drop because of the increased competition. That would drive down costs and prices to the consumer. Increasing transparency in the cost of care would drive down costs.


Senator Wyden has a pretty good proposal to this effect.

117 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:09:12am

re: #85 insert name here

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good.

Keep Googloing for the REASON ,,, things that are covered here are NOT covered there, by and large

Start with elective surgeries, go from here

118 Kronocide  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:10:40am

re: #93 imp_62

The average tax burden in many European countries is equal to that in the U.S. or lower,…

That looks like tax rate which is much different than tax burden.

119 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:10:44am

re: #103 lawhawk

You can actually shop around for car or home insurance - and you can choose your level of coverage. That’s something that is fundamentally absent in health care, primarily because it is usually employer-provided. But even when the employer provides several options, you don’t get a true range of options since the states mandate the minimum levels of coverage, which in the case of NY or NJ drives up the costs to such a degree that it puts obtaining even minimum coverage out of the reach of many people.

If states were forced to accept coverage acceptable in other states, the cost of coverage would drop because of the increased competition. That would drive down costs and prices to the consumer. Increasing transparency in the cost of care would drive down costs. What the Administration and Democrats propose is simply shifting who pays and how it gets paid - and puts a government entity in charge of the cost controls.

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yes, you can shop around for auto insurance, but the options are about the same as my health insurance options. Granted my employer picks the company and I pick the plan, but is auto insurance much different? All the major auto insurers are practically identical with only a few dollars difference, Allstate, Geico, Prudential. Actually, I was just shopping for new car insurance this week and found them to be almost all the same.

My point above, however, was that my monthly premiums pay for when you have an accident and yours pay for mine.

120 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:10:54am

re: #110 MandyManners

If you have a Tempur-Pedic mattress, you won’t bug the other person when you do the Happy Dance!

Even if they’re sipping a full goblet of champagne and doing the soduku!

121 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:11:17am

re: #98 Surabaya Stew

Yes, I am new here; thought that should be pretty obvious to old-timers here. Never said you mentioned McCain, was just asking that as he was the only serious alternative to Obama, how would today’s unemployment situation be any different were he running the show?

And no, this is not a partisan position I’m pushing you into; frankly, I feel the only difference between McCain and Obama is that rather than wasting our money on a stimulus package, he’d be wasting it on a new war.

A new war?
Do you mean maybe he’d be trying to stop Iran from getting a bomb, which would be a lot better than cleaning up afterwards?
Or do you mean he’d go looking for some country to declare war on?
Since you said “new war” I have to assume you don’t mean Iraq or Afghanistan.

122 KenJen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:11:20am

Just heard about Letterman. Did he sleep with a man?

123 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:11:47am

re: #85 insert name here

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good. IIRC, 5 year survivability for coronary disease, as well as cancer, was only a little bit better for us compared to the best of the European plans.

How were the figures on expenditures calculated? I’ve seen such claims before, and it turns out that US medical costs are tallied including not just urgent or required care, but by tossing in every tummy tuck, liposuction, botox injection, breast enlargement or reduction, penile implant and scores of other expensive elective procedures. While costs for other countries simply tallied what was paid for by their government-run plans - which strictly limits payments for procedures of this sort. Comparing cost to benefit isn’t a bad idea, but the measurements I’ve seen for it render conclusions meaningless because they don’t make one-to-one comparisons between systems.

I also take issue with the conclusion that paying twice as much should produce a better result than “only a little bit better” survivability. Doubling costs, even if that were a valid measurement, would not be expected to double survivability, or anywhere near double it. You’re already up against the wall when coronary disease or cancer strikes; these are extremely difficult diseases to treat, and you rapidly run up against the law of diminishing returns. There’s only so much that can be done as far as treatment goes, barring some new breakthroughs. Even a small improvement here comes at a great cost, no matter who is paying for it.

Which also begs the question: will governments be more likely to pay that exponentially increasing marginal cost to ensure a minimal increase in survivability than individual patients or service-based insurance companies? There’s only so much taxation people are willing to accept, and turning this into a political decision rather than a personal or medical decision is not a recipe for happy outcomes.

124 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:11:53am

re: #114 MandyManners

I have a link somewhere.

I do as well… somewhere.

125 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:12:02am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yes, you can shop around for auto insurance, but the options are about the same as my health insurance options. Granted my employer picks the company and I pick the plan, but is auto insurance much different? All the major auto insurers are practically identical with only a few dollars difference, Allstate, Geico, Prudential. Actually, I was just shopping for new car insurance this week and found them to be almost all the same.

My point above, however, was that my monthly premiums pay for when you have an accident and yours pay for mine.

The difference being that the average person get’s in an accident very rarely —EVERYONE uses health insurance these days.

126 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:12:18am

re: #103 lawhawk

You can actually shop around for car or home insurance - and you can choose your level of coverage. That’s something that is fundamentally absent in health care, primarily because it is usually employer-provided. But even when the employer provides several options, you don’t get a true range of options since the states mandate the minimum levels of coverage, which in the case of NY or NJ drives up the costs to such a degree that it puts obtaining even minimum coverage out of the reach of many people.

If states were forced to accept coverage acceptable in other states, the cost of coverage would drop because of the increased competition. That would drive down costs and prices to the consumer. Increasing transparency in the cost of care would drive down costs. What the Administration and Democrats propose is simply shifting who pays and how it gets paid - and puts a government entity in charge of the cost controls.

Would you please stop making so much darn sense?

127 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:13:02am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yeah ,,what a terrible idea

competition
job creation
lower costs to the consumers
higher enrollment numbers for the insurers

Yuch,,,
/

128 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:13:03am
129 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:13:05am

re: #117 sattv4u2

I looked at some numbers not too long ago (which, I’m sure, are googleable)…we pay almost twice as much for health care as our European brethren, but the results are nowhere near twice as good.

Keep Googloing for the REASON ,,, things that are covered here are NOT covered there, by and large

Start with elective surgeries, go from here

That is a generalization. I have lived in Europe a good part of my life (child and adult) and healthcare coverage in some countries is clearly superior to the US (notably Germany and Switzerland) while devouring less of GDP. Other countries (UK) have hationalized healthcare and it does not work all that well for many peoiple, while it does provide the basics for everyone.

This is not a black and white situation. The US system has fostered important medical research, but left many people without adequate, affordable coverage. Other systems cover more people at a lower cost, but may discourage some from joining the medical or research professions.

130 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:13:23am

Just tuning in. Don’t know if this has been discussed:NYT David Brooks Op Ed:The Wizard of Beck

The title is a bit misleading. Its about entertainment radio and the GOP in general.

But this is not merely a story of weakness. It is a story of resilience. For no matter how often their hollowness is exposed, the jocks still reweave the myth of their own power. They still ride the airwaves claiming to speak for millions. They still confuse listeners with voters. And they are aided in this endeavor by their enablers. They are enabled by cynical Democrats, who love to claim that Rush Limbaugh controls the G.O.P. They are enabled by lazy pundits who find it easier to argue with showmen than with people whose opinions are based on knowledge. They are enabled by the slightly educated snobs who believe that Glenn Beck really is the voice of Middle America.

131 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:13:34am

re: #104 ggt

Old 80/20 major medical did not pay for doctor visits, routine tests —pap, blood etc, or prescriptions. Remember when if you wanted TV in your hospital room you had to pay for it yourself? Now WE all pay and we can’t afford it.

The lawyers, IMHO, and politicans are skimming way too much.

Now I’m really not following you LOL My old 80/20 system was much better than today. First, there was no co-pay. My co-pay over the last 5 years or so has gone from $15 to $45 a visit. I had much more covered 20 years ago than today.

But I do agree that it’s out of control and I’m glad at least someone is seriously determined to do something.

132 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:14:01am

re: #122 KenJen

Just heard about Letterman. Did he sleep with a man?

The answer to that is, in my mind: who cares? I hate TV personalities and the egocentric culture they foment.

133 FemNaziBitch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:14:29am

gotta go

Have a great day all!

134 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:14:32am

re: #103 lawhawk

You can actually shop around for car or home insurance - and you can choose your level of coverage. That’s something that is fundamentally absent in health care, primarily because it is usually employer-provided. But even when the employer provides several options, you don’t get a true range of options since the states mandate the minimum levels of coverage, which in the case of NY or NJ drives up the costs to such a degree that it puts obtaining even minimum coverage out of the reach of many people.

If states were forced to accept coverage acceptable in other states, the cost of coverage would drop because of the increased competition. That would drive down costs and prices to the consumer. Increasing transparency in the cost of care would drive down costs. What the Administration and Democrats propose is simply shifting who pays and how it gets paid - and puts a government entity in charge of the cost controls.

I still have a problem with accepting policies from other states, which you never addressed.
Some states have higher costs than others. A hospital room in Boston costs much more than many other places.
If the out-of-state insurance has to pay Boston hospital room costs, it will raise their rates for everyone, and if not, the person in Boston who thought he had coverage will end up going bankrupt paying for the uncovered amount for the hospital stay.
Or, if the hospital has to take the loss, they’re going to charge everyone in state more, until everyone buys out of state insurance, and the hospital collapses.

What is your solution to this?

135 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:14:39am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yes, you can shop around for auto insurance, but the options are about the same as my health insurance options. Granted my employer picks the company and I pick the plan, but is auto insurance much different? All the major auto insurers are practically identical with only a few dollars difference, Allstate, Geico, Prudential. Actually, I was just shopping for new car insurance this week and found them to be almost all the same.

My point above, however, was that my monthly premiums pay for when you have an accident and yours pay for mine.

But you miss the point. Car insurance and the ability to buy from any company you want, is what has kept the auto insurance cost where they are at.

For your comparison to have any validity, you would have to be able to show us what car insurance would be if we DIDN’T have the ability to purchase cross state. You would have to show us that car insurance would be the SAME cost now if we couldn’t buy from any company.

If the same option was accorded health insurance, then the cost would start to GO DOWN, just as the cost of auto insurance.

136 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:14:48am

re: #121 Kosh’s Shadow

A new war?
Do you mean maybe he’d be trying to stop Iran from getting a bomb, which would be a lot better than cleaning up afterwards?
Or do you mean he’d go looking for some country to declare war on?
Since you said “new war” I have to assume you don’t mean Iraq or Afghanistan.

Probably Iran, but perhaps Georgia or Venezuela instead.

137 Spenser (with an S)  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:15:31am

Genius from Steyn…

We all recall the Nazi/brownshirts outbursts by Gore, Soros, Byrd, etc., the Aflred Knopf novel Checkpoint about killing Bush, or the Toronto Film Festival award-winning docu-drama about killing Bush — but perhaps we forget there was no outrage from the Democratic congress or the New York Times at all that and worse. In addition, we may have forgotten the New York play I’m Gonna Kill the President or the creepy Guardian column by Charles Brooker published on the eve of the 2004 election:

The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us. John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?

Why didn’t they speak up for civility and against the crazies?

138 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:16:07am

re: #125 ggt

The difference being that the average person get’s in an accident very rarely —EVERYONE uses health insurance these days.

Well that seems entirely plausible! I guess my point is that it doesn’t have to come out of taxes. It could still come out of premiums. I’m not an economy major but I think this is the plan.

139 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:16:11am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

re: #127 sattv4u2

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yeah ,,what a terrible idea

competition
job creation
lower costs to the consumers
higher enrollment numbers for the insurers

Yuch,,,
/

AND ,, please stop comparing AUTO/HOME ins to Health CARE ins. It’s been pointed out to you numerous times that it is apples and oranges. If you missed the “WHY”, please see #’s 92 and 94

140 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:17:48am

The two party system sucks the big weenie in hell IMHO.

141 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:17:56am

re: #90 lawhawk

The promise to kids is working out? How about an unemployment rate of 25% or more for those high schoolers and college trying to find jobs to make ends meet? That’s a direct result of the increased minimum wage that the Democrats pushed through. Instead of creating jobs, the higher minimum wage eliminates jobs and reduces new job opportunities.

The overall unemployment rate is now 9.8% or nearly 2 full points higher than the Administration claimed things would get with the stimulus package in place. And there’s little sign that things are going to get better; particularly as GM winds down Saturn and Pontiac and sheds Hummer and Saab. Sales are down huge for Ford and Chrysler in September as a hangover effect from cash for clunkers takes hold (I warned ya!).

Focusing on education is critical to future competitiveness, and the need to improve education around the nation must be a priority, but so too is the need to make sure that whatever money is spent on education actually ends up in the classroom and not in the massive bureaucracy that functionally inhibits education.

Case in point, I have relatives who are teachers in the NYC school system who get a curriculum from the Dept of Education, and they change the curriculum every few years, even if there’s no good reason to do so. It’s asinine and done so that the upper management can say that they’re doing their jobs, as opposed to improving the actual classroom experience. Besides, everything is geared to passing competency exams, not actually learning or critical thinking - skills necessary for life, let alone work.

NPR was reporting this morning on the results of the New GI Bill that was passed recently and it’s results so far. They are not good. A whole lot of veterans signed up for school, expecting to receive checks from the VA, and - guess what? The VA fucked up, didn’t process a boatload of forms, and the vets are left holding the bag for tuition they’re not able to pay, or are waiting for checks to reimburse them for cash out of their own pockets that’s now needed for things like food and rent. The VA’s answer - well, you can go to our website and fill out another form asking for an emergency loan to tide you over until we pull our heads out of our asses and distribute the money for the original payment we were supposed to send, but didn’t.

No word on when this will be resolved, or on what happened to several billion dollars Congress approved explicitly for the purpose of facilitating these distributions.

“Oh, gee - you came in for a heart transplant and we removed your kidneys instead? Well, we’ll schedule you for an appointment with a urologist - the first one available is in about three months, once you’ve filled out these forms requesting an appointment and they’re approved…”

142 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:18:46am

re: #118 BigPapa

That looks like tax rate which is much different than tax burden.

Sorry I missed your post. You are correct with a qualifier for empirical evidence: US law requires US expatriates to pay the positive difference between what your US taxes would have been and what your foreign taxes are. I.e. if I would have to pay $10 in the US and have paid $8 in London, then I owe the IRS $2. There was a time when almost no-one had to pay into that scheme. Now, most people do as the US taxes have caught up with and in some cases surpassed rates in European countries.

143 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:18:49am

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

But you miss the point. Car insurance and the ability to buy from any company you want, is what has kept the auto insurance cost where they are at.

As anyone actually TRIED to buy insurance? I have, and there are a number of companies, each with a plethora of plans, to choose between. I don’t think lack of competition is the issue, at least not here in CA.

144 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:18:50am

re: #140 Ojoe

The two party system sucks the big weenie in hell IMHO.

Try Iran/ Venezuela/ North Korea and the ONE party system then come back and complain!

just sayin!

145 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:18:58am

re: #140 Ojoe

The two party system sucks the big weenie in hell IMHO.

You have a Gregorian chant for that? :)

146 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:19:34am
147 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:20:17am

re: #137 Spenser (with an S)

Genius from Steyn…

Why didn’t they speak up for civility and against the crazies?

It’s been steadily downhill since the GOP went after Bill Clinton for lying about boinking the intern.
The nerve of those sanctimonious crazies.///

148 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:21:11am

How can you have a middle class without a middle party?

D - poor party

R - rich party

149 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:03am

re: #143 insert name here

As anyone actually TRIED to buy insurance? I have, and there are a number of companies, each with a plethora of plans, to choose between. I don’t think lack of competition is the issue, at least not here in CA.

I think you just made my point, the point that marjoriemoon seems to want to ignore.

It’s the ability to purchase a plethora of car insurance plans that keeps the cost down.

Since we DON”T have that ability with health insurance, you can’t compare the cost of car insurance to health insurance.

The only way marjoriemoon would be correct is if it could be proved that car insurance would be LESS if the government insisted you purchase only from a company and plan in your state.

Marjoriemoon of course can’t do that.

150 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:30am

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

Would some Lizard whose Latin is better than mine, please translate that into Latin?

Church Latin of course.

Thank you.

151 Buck  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:31am

Gilad Shalit read sections from the newspaper Gaza-based “Falasteen” newspaper from September 14 on his video… I just saw the video on Fox News…

He looks healthy. It is great to see he is alive.

152 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:38am

re: #148 Ojoe

IDK. Some of those Hollywood Democrats don’t look to poor to me.

153 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:42am

Hidey hidey hidey ho!

154 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:22:50am

re: #128 MandyManners

Happy Birthday, Gordon Sumner!


[Video]

Sting is hot.

155 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:23:15am

re: #153 Occasional Reader

Mornin’.

156 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:23:46am

re: #152 imp_62

They are “acting” of course.

24-7.

157 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:23:57am

re: #148 Ojoe

How can you have a middle class without a middle party?

D - poor party

R - rich party


Would that be the same “poor” democratic party that outraised and outspent the “rich” republicansin the last 3 national elections?
Would that be the same “poor” dem party of the Kennedys, Kerrys, Oprahs, et al?

158 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:24:45am

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

But you miss the point. Car insurance and the ability to buy from any company you want, is what has kept the auto insurance cost where they are at.

For your comparison to have any validity, you would have to be able to show us what car insurance would be if we DIDN’T have the ability to purchase cross state. You would have to show us that car insurance would be the SAME cost now if we couldn’t buy from any company.

If the same option was accorded health insurance, then the cost would start to GO DOWN, just as the cost of auto insurance.

I don’t have the numbers, but when Massachusetts deregulated car insurance, rates went down for some people (good drivers and those who live in low risk areas) and went up for bad drivers and those who live in riskier areas.
However, it wasn’t a huge difference for me, and I live in a low-risk area.

159 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:24:45am

re: #141 SixDegrees

NPR was reporting this morning on the results of the New GI Bill that was passed recently and it’s results so far. They are not good.

I have to say; NPR has been relatively good lately in terms of politican even-handedness. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at some of their critical reporting on the Obama Administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress.

160 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:25:04am

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

I think you just made my point, the point that marjoriemoon seems to want to ignore.

It’s the ability to purchase a plethora of car insurance plans that keeps the cost down.

Since we DON”T have that ability with health insurance, you can’t compare the cost of car insurance to health insurance.

I thought I was saying that we do have that ability with health insurance (at least in CA).

Please forgive me if I wasn’t clear.

161 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:26:15am

re: #139 sattv4u2

re: #127 sattv4u2


AND ,, please stop comparing AUTO/HOME ins to Health CARE ins. It’s been pointed out to you numerous times that it is apples and oranges. If you missed the “WHY”, please see #’s 92 and 94

I understand the distinction you make between the two, but I don’t see how it undermines the argument that “more competition (i.e., interstate) would tend to drive down prices”.

162 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:27:00am

re: #160 insert name here

I thought I was saying that we do have that ability with health insurance (at least in CA).

Please forgive me if I wasn’t clear.

You have the ability to purchase health insurance from any company, whether they are located in CA. or not? That’s what we are talking about.

163 acwgusa  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:27:03am

re: #160 insert name here

I thought I was saying that we do have that ability with health insurance (at least in CA).

Please forgive me if I wasn’t clear.

Its not as many carriers as you think. California allows carriers to do business under several different names, with different carrier codes.

I can think of one company here that covers under SEVEN different company names.

164 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:27:59am

re: #157 sattv4u2

In orientation, in the pitch to the public, the poor party.

165 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:28:00am

re: #161 Occasional Reader

I understand the distinction you make between the two, but I don’t see how it undermines the argument that “more competition (i.e., interstate) would tend to drive down prices”.

OP, that’s the point, most of us ARE saying that more competition would lower cost. Marjoriemoon says it won’t.

166 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:28:21am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

It would be disastrous if you’re suggesting what Republicans are suggesting, that we should be able to purchase insurance out of state. You don’t think you’re covered now? You can’t get answers from your insurance company now? It’s a terrible idea.

Yes, you can shop around for auto insurance, but the options are about the same as my health insurance options. Granted my employer picks the company and I pick the plan, but is auto insurance much different? All the major auto insurers are practically identical with only a few dollars difference, Allstate, Geico, Prudential. Actually, I was just shopping for new car insurance this week and found them to be almost all the same.

My point above, however, was that my monthly premiums pay for when you have an accident and yours pay for mine.

So, you think opening up real choice and competition in the real marketplace (as opposed to the faux marketplace where the government taxes one segment and gives it to another and isn’t accountable to real-world economic market forces) is a bad idea?
OK.

167 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:28:30am

re: #159 Occasional Reader

I have to say; NPR has been relatively good lately in terms of politican even-handedness. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at some of their critical reporting on the Obama Administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress.

I’m still at the point where I figure if NPR is reporting something like this, the reality is probably far worse. But there own report is bad enough as it is.

168 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:28:40am

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

OP, that’s the point, most of us ARE saying that more competition would lower cost. Marjoriemoon says it won’t.

Stop calling me “Opie”!

169 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:28:44am

BBL

170 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:29:26am

re: #62 Ojoe

This economy sucks. There are no projects on my drafting boards. In 6-8 months there will be no crews building, with a multiplier effect of 20. I’ve sent in an application to drive busses.

It is folly to have ignited a shouting match about health care without first fixing the economy, and it is trivial to pitch for the Olympics in Chicago when the Mullahs are building the bomb.

But that’s just my opinion.

Do you know how many construction jobs the Olympics brings to a city? If you’re geographically suitable, you might think of bidding on one or two. And then how much new housing is available to city residents when the athletes go home?

He’s not flying coach, y’know, he can work or sleep or whatever he’d do at the White House while he’s en route. So he took 4 hours to pitch for a project that would bring tens of billions of dollars to Chicago. Immediate construction work, tons of tourists, worldwide TV coverage that will bring years and years more of tourists… I don’t see the problem.

oh, and, while he’s on that side of the world, Gen. McCrystal (who’d been in London) met up with him for a chat on the plane before they both went back to their customary place of work.

171 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:30:27am

re: #148 Ojoe

How can you have a middle class without a middle party?

D - poor party

R - rich party

Soros is poor? Pelosi is poor? The Kennedys are poor? The Clintons?

172 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:30:34am

And staying right on line with the topics that have been floating around on this thread this morning, I have to go now.

Got an interview at a retail store for a full time minimum wage job, and I will be happy as hell if I get that.

Nice little comrade that I am.

173 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:30:58am

re: #168 Occasional Reader

Stop calling me “Opie”!

I do that all the time, don’t I?

174 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:30:59am

re: #167 SixDegrees

I’m still at the point where I figure if NPR is reporting something like this, the reality is probably far worse. But there own report is bad enough as it is.

I recall a couple of months back being flabbergasted when they aired the views of (don’t recall name) on the Obama energy plan. To wit: The plan is basically to deliberately drive up energy costs, in the optimistic belief that this will somehow inevitably lead to technological solutions. The pull quote: “But in fact, it’s not like the government caused the personal computer to be invented, by imposing punitive taxes on typewriters.” I thought… WOW, this is NPR?!

175 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:31:37am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

You have the ability to purchase health insurance from any company, whether they are located in CA. or not? That’s what we are talking about.

I thought we were talking about competition, and from my experience, there’s plenty of competition here in CA, irrespective of where it comes from.

And let me state, too, that I think I have a pretty decent rate. And I *believe* I have good coverage, but I have yet to test that out.

176 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:31:49am

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

Good luck.

177 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:32:18am

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

But you miss the point. Car insurance and the ability to buy from any company you want, is what has kept the auto insurance cost where they are at.

For your comparison to have any validity, you would have to be able to show us what car insurance would be if we DIDN’T have the ability to purchase cross state. You would have to show us that car insurance would be the SAME cost now if we couldn’t buy from any company.

If the same option was accorded health insurance, then the cost would start to GO DOWN, just as the cost of auto insurance.

I guess it’s where you live. I live in metro city where people can’t drive so I’m paying about $3000 a year to insure two cars. Incidentally, I banged up the back end of my car a few weeks ago, not too much damage, but the cost is $1500 to fix it, half my yearly premium.

Those against buying insurance over state lines say that while the cost for young people (healthy people) will go down, the cost for older people (pre-existing conditions or us middle-aged folks) will go up.

Most benefit mandates would be eliminated by an across state lines proposal. In fact, it’s possible that such benefits like maternity care would not be included at all and you’d have to pay extra forit. Consumers would get much less coverage for more money.

Purchasing across state lines also gives the insurer more reason to deny you coverage.

Bad bad idea.

178 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:32:37am

Good morning. I see the first thread is early.
Created a parody that I thought was relevant regarding tea parties and kook.
Apologies to John Lennon and Paul McCartney.

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me you hate evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about assassination
Don’t you know that you can count me out
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a health solution
Well, you know
We’d all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We’re doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah…

You say you’ll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it’s the institution
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Paul
You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don’t you know it’s gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right

179 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:33:18am

re: #139 sattv4u2

re: #127 sattv4u2

AND ,, please stop comparing AUTO/HOME ins to Health CARE ins. It’s been pointed out to you numerous times that it is apples and oranges. If you missed the “WHY”, please see #’s 92 and 94

Then please stop whining and sniveling about having to pay for other’s people coverage. We do it all the time and no one whines and snivels about it!!

180 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:33:34am

re: #171 MandyManners

Soros is poor? Pelosi is poor? The Kennedys are poor? The Clintons?

Perhaps he is referring to their core or driving constituencies? Because I do not doubt that the Dems pander to the interests of the poor every bit as much as the Reps pander to the interests of the wealthy.

181 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:33:44am

re: #177 marjoriemoon

Purchasing across state lines also gives the insurer more reason to deny you coverage

Thats pure speculation at best.

182 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:33:46am

re: #170 sagehen

Do you know how many construction jobs the Olympics brings to a city? If you’re geographically suitable, you might think of bidding on one or two. And then how much new housing is available to city residents when the athletes go home?

He’s not flying coach, y’know, he can work or sleep or whatever he’d do at the White House while he’s en route. So he took 4 hours to pitch for a project that would bring tens of billions of dollars to Chicago. Immediate construction work, tons of tourists, worldwide TV coverage that will bring years and years more of tourists… I don’t see the problem.

oh, and, while he’s on that side of the world, Gen. McCrystal (who’d been in London) met up with him for a chat on the plane before they both went back to their customary place of work.

As far as I know, the last time the OG brought lasting positive change to a city, along with useful public works and infrastructure improvements at no net cost to the taxpayer was Barcelona. Otherwise, individuals and certain corporations may make money, but the net effect is a cost to taxpayers.

183 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:33:59am

re: #177 marjoriemoon

Purchasing across state lines also gives the insurer more reason to deny you coverage.

Why?

184 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:34:01am

re: #175 insert name here

I thought we were talking about competition, and from my experience, there’s plenty of competition here in CA, irrespective of where it comes from.

And let me state, too, that I think I have a pretty decent rate. And I *believe* I have good coverage, but I have yet to test that out.

Good luck. Various companies in CA got in trouble because if someone had a major illness, they’d look for any errors on the application that they could use to claim that the information was not complete, or in error, and therefore the coverage was canceled. I think now it is better, after that.

185 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:34:07am

re: #174 Occasional Reader

I recall a couple of months back being flabbergasted when they aired the views of (don’t recall name) on the Obama energy plan. To wit: The plan is basically to deliberately drive up energy costs, in the optimistic belief that this will somehow inevitably lead to technological solutions. The pull quote: “But in fact, it’s not like the government caused the personal computer to be invented, by imposing punitive taxes on typewriters.” I thought… WOW, this is NPR?!

FAIRNESS DOCTRINE!!! FAIRNESS DOCTRINE!!!

/

186 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:34:39am

re: #164 Ojoe

In orientation, in the pitch to the public, the poor party.

Both parties ‘pitch’ to the middle class. They know that it’s where the big number of voters consider themselves. That’s the other thing - it is popular for the majority to consider themselves ‘middle class’, even though there would be disagreement between two people who classified themselves as middle class.

What is the absolute definition of ‘middle class’?

187 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:34:40am

re: #154 FrogMarch

Sting is hot.

He’s aging pretty well.

188 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:34:44am

re: #177 marjoriemoon

Purchasing across state lines also gives the insurer more reason to deny you coverage.

Bad bad idea.

Interesting. I used to buy my car insurance from a company based in Ohio. I live in Colorado. It was good insurance. I miss it, in fact.
We live in a world wide economy. Why should it matter if people buy things across state lines?

189 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:35:03am

re: #68 imp_62

I’d like to say it is comforting to see others in the same boat as I am. But it isn’t; it’s depressing. But to blame Obama is to ignore the last 15 years of economic policy (democrat and republican) which have been building up to this mess. Obama is simply adding his shovel-load.


Recession started Dec. 2007.
Obama inaugurated Jan 2009.

Obviously, he’s retroactively to blame for it.

And Lehman Brothers purposely went under just to provide an opportunity for McCain to say something abominably stupid six weeks before the election.

(BTW, the stock market has gone up 20% since the inauguration; is that Obama’s doing too? Or is he only responsible for the economic indicators you don’t like?)

190 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:35:27am

re: #180 Guanxi88

Perhaps he is referring to their core or driving constituencies?

But wealthy coastal metropolitan areas are largely Democrat.

191 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:35:54am

re: #177 marjoriemoon

I guess it’s where you live. I live in metro city where people can’t drive so I’m paying about $3000 a year to insure two cars. Incidentally, I banged up the back end of my car a few weeks ago, not too much damage, but the cost is $1500 to fix it, half my yearly premium.

Those against buying insurance over state lines say that while the cost for young people (healthy people) will go down, the cost for older people (pre-existing conditions or us middle-aged folks) will go up.

Most benefit mandates would be eliminated by an across state lines proposal. In fact, it’s possible that such benefits like maternity care would not be included at all and you’d have to pay extra forit. Consumers would get much less coverage for more money.

Purchasing across state lines also gives the insurer more reason to deny you coverage.

Bad bad idea.

And I can see them doing something like requiring you to appeal denied coverage in person in their home office. Too sick to travel? Too bad.

192 Buck  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:36:05am

re: #149 Walter L. Newton


The only way marjoriemoon would be correct is if it could be proved that car insurance would be LESS if the government insisted you purchase only from a company and plan in your state.

Marjoriemoon of course can’t do that.

Well,,, In my Province here in Canada… (Manitoba) car insurance is ONLY available from one company. A Province owned company. Everyone can get insurance, no matter what they driving record. How it works is that not everyone can afford to get their driver licence. But insurance for their cars… guaranteed.

There is no doubt that car insurance, everything equal… is cheaper here than any other Province.

For a little more details…if you have more than one moving violation in a year you get an extra charge on your drivers licence, $200 I think. This is on top of any fine. You only get a discount on your insurance when you have a perfect record for 3 years, and that gives you an additional 15% off.

193 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:36:11am

I have to go. I’ll come back later so I may Taunt You a Second Time.

:)re: #183 Occasional Reader

Why?

They say because there would be fewer guaranteed issued policies.

194 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:36:26am

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

And staying right on line with the topics that have been floating around on this thread this morning, I have to go now.

Got an interview at a retail store for a full time minimum wage job, and I will be happy as hell if I get that.

Nice little comrade that I am.

Down in the Metro area?

195 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:36:41am

re: #186 Dreader1962

That’s the other thing - it is popular for the majority to consider themselves ‘middle class’, even though there would be disagreement between two people who classified themselves as middle class.

And that, I think, is a very (if not uniquely) American phenomenon.

196 Buck  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:37:15am

re: #189 sagehen


(BTW, the stock market has gone up 20% since the inauguration; is that Obama’s doing too? Or is he only responsible for the economic indicators you don’t like?)

Wait a week… that 20% could be gone…

197 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:37:16am

re: #184 Kosh’s Shadow

Good luck. Various companies in CA got in trouble because if someone had a major illness, they’d look for any errors on the application that they could use to claim that the information was not complete, or in error, and therefore the coverage was canceled. I think now it is better, after that.

And frankly, that’s my major worry about my insurance plan (or any private plan, for that matter) — not cost. If the insurer decides, for whatever reason, that they won’t cover my costs, woe shall be upon me!

198 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:37:37am

re: #190 Occasional Reader

But wealthy coastal metropolitan areas are largely Democrat.

But the core voting demographic there, as elsewhere, is the poor, both in reality and in self-perception.

199 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:37:53am

So does Letterman get harshed just for having sex with vulnerable underlings who in all likelihood were merely trying to screw their way to the top?
C’mon let’s cut him some slack…that kind of sleaze is just par for the course in showbiz, isn’t it?
/

200 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:38:11am

I’d love to continue Taunting you, but I must dash :)

See ya’ll later lizards.

201 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:38:25am

re: #189 sagehen

Recession started Dec. 2007.
Obama inaugurated Jan 2009.

Obviously, he’s retroactively to blame for it.

And Lehman Brothers purposely went under just to provide an opportunity for McCain to say something abominably stupid six weeks before the election.

(BTW, the stock market has gone up 20% since the inauguration; is that Obama’s doing too? Or is he only responsible for the economic indicators you don’t like?)

Wait a second. Did you even read my comment??

202 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:38:42am

re: #180 Guanxi88

Perhaps he is referring to their core or driving constituencies? Because I do not doubt that the Dems pander to the interests of the poor every bit as much as the Reps pander to the interests of the wealthy.

I think the GOP panders to those who want lower taxes so that they can get ahead while the Dems pander to those who want free shit from the government, i.e., the people.

203 calcajun  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:38:57am

OT

This sounds like a bad episode of Futurama:

Ted Williams’s head abused in cyro storage facility

204 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:13am

re: #199 Spare O’Lake

So does Letterman get harshed just for having sex with vulnerable underlings who in all likelihood were merely trying to screw their way to the top?
C’mon let’s cut him some slack…that kind of sleaze is just par for the course in showbiz, isn’t it?
/

“It wasn’t rape rape…”

205 Buck  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:19am

re: #199 Spare O’Lake

So does Letterman get harshed just for having sex with vulnerable underlings who in all likelihood were merely trying to screw their way to the top?
C’mon let’s cut him some slack…that kind of sleaze is just par for the course in showbiz, isn’t it?
/

I predict he will get bragging rights that he slept with some super hot women…

It certainly looked that way to me…

206 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:22am

re: #185 SixDegrees

FAIRNESS DOCTRINE!!! FAIRNESS DOCTRINE!!!

/

LOCAL CONTROL! DIVERSITY!

207 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:37am

re: #179 marjoriemoon

Then please stop whining and sniveling about having to pay for other’s people coverage. We do it all the time and no one whines and snivels about it!!

Please show me where I have done either. I’m FACTUALLY stating that home and/or auto insurance pays on CATASTROPHIES ONLY, and I am well aware that my premiums pay for other peoples repairs due to accidents or home fires/ floods. What my premiums do NOT pay for is when your house needs a new deck because the wood on the old one has naturally rotted, or when your car needs new tires becuase of wear. What my premiums do NOT pay for is when you don’t change your oil for 12 years and the engine seizes and you need a new engine

What my HEALTH CARE premiums DO pay for is when you have a sniffle and go see a doctor. What my heath CARE premiums DO pay for is when your kid has nothing but a steady diet of Bic Macs and Twinkies and needs all kinds of special med care because of it

208 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:43am

re: #203 calcajun

OT

This sounds like a bad episode of Futurama:

Ted Williams’s head abused in cyro storage facility

No. It sounds like an excellent episode of Futurama.

209 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:53am

re: #190 Occasional Reader

But wealthy coastal metropolitan areas are largely Democrat.

I’d also add that the relatively small number of wealthy folk in these areas tend to view the far more numerous poor with a sort of condescending pity tinged with outright terror that accounts for a fair amount of the schizoid policies one encounters in these areas - multi-millionaires pledging solidarity with the poor and working classes, and taking every conceivable measure necessary to ensure that these groups remain impoverished and marginal, all the while reaping the harvest of their votes.

210 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:39:55am

re: #119 marjoriemoon

That’s how insurance works - the company makes money by putting the spread between claims and receipts from premiums. If you have more demand for services, the result is either that insurance companies increase the premium or reduce their spread (reducing their profits). Insurers generally have around a 3% profit margin.

As for the difference in costs, you’d be surprised to see the difference in car insurance costs. I went to buy insurance for my new car in 2005 in NJ and the difference was considerable - several hundred dollars in fact between Allstate, Gieco and Liberty Mutual for comparable coverage. I’d say that it depends on the state you’re in. re: #134 Kosh’s Shadow

Some states have higher costs, in part because of the coverages demanded by the states themselves. Increased competition would push down the costs, but you’re right that some of the cost savings would be mitigated because some areas are more expensive (higher standard of living than others). There’s a solution to that as well, as not all insurers will move to have their coverage accepted in other states. They might choose to limit themselves to their local geographical coverage. So, if an insurer from Arkansas wanted to expand coverage into other states, it might limit itself to those in the Southeast that had similar pricing structures.

In the Northeast, you might see insurers from NY, CT, and RI seek access to the Mass. market, increasing competition regionally. Since they’d have similar pricing levels due to geographical issues - NYC has similar cost of living as Boston - you’d have increased competition from similarly constrained insurers.

As to marjorie’s complaint about insurer responsiveness, I’d argue that the increased competition would necessarily mean that insurers would have to improve customer service or else lose business to others. Under the current system, there’s little impetus to improve customer service since the focus is on delivery of the mandatory coverage under the law.

211 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:40:22am

Happy Friday, everyone.

We’re talking insurance, eh? I’ve had good and bad experiences with insurance companies. In general, I would suggest more competition is good, but I know first hand the types of games insurance companies can play. I’ve had to take one to court, and realize that not everyone will feel they can do that.

212 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:40:40am

DRYER BUZZER!

213 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:40:55am

re: #203 calcajun

OT

This sounds like a bad episode of Futurama:

Ted Williams’s head abused in cyro storage facility

Nixon’s Back!

214 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:41:31am

re: #212 MandyManners

BAGEL AND CREAM CHEESE

215 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:41:46am

re: #213 Guanxi88

Nixon’s Back!

With a new, shiny robot body.

216 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:42:24am

re: #215 Honorary Yooper

With a new, shiny robot body.

Like the South Park Barbara Streisand episode.

217 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:42:46am

re: #203 calcajun

OT

This sounds like a bad episode of Futurama:

Ted Williams’s head abused in cyro storage facility

Must have been a Yankee fan…

218 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:42:51am

re: #203 calcajun

OT

This sounds like a bad episode of Futurama:

Ted Williams’s head abused in cyro storage facility

I don’t really feel comfortable laughing about that, but I am having a very hard time containing myself.

219 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:43:02am

re: #210 lawhawk

That’s how insurance works - the company makes money by putting the spread between claims and receipts from premiums. If you have more demand for services, the result is either that insurance companies increase the premium or reduce their spread (reducing their profits). Insurers generally have around a 3% profit margin.

That’s right. A 3% profit margin.
/Those greedy bastards.

220 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:43:37am

re: #212 MandyManners

DRYER BUZZER!

Oh I hate those. Mine has a nice ding dong. It’s very pleasant.

221 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:43:38am

re: #212 MandyManners

DRYER BUZZER!

If you dryer buzzer, will she thank you or spank you?

222 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:44:18am

Speaking of shiny robot bodies:

Prototype bionic eye

As Killgore would say: Science!

223 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:44:22am

re: #219 FrogMarch

That’s right. A 3% profit margin.
/Those greedy bastards.

It’s fascinating to compare different industries and see what profit margins are considered “necessary” or “acceptable.” I knew a company that was upset when it didn’t grow by 15% every year.

224 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:44:56am

re: #215 Honorary Yooper

With a new, shiny robot body.

Won the robot vote quite handily.re: #215 Honorary Yooper

With a new, shiny robot body.

Puny Human Candidate # 1, Puny Human Candidate # 2, and Morbo’s close personal friend, Richard Nixon.

225 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:44:59am

re: #220 FrogMarch

Oh I hate those. Mine has a nice ding dong. It’s very pleasant.

We’re getting a new washer on Monday. I have no idea if the buzzer will be nice or hideous. But it should be a great improvement over the washer we have now.

226 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:45:17am

re: #216 imp_62

Like the South Park Barbara Streisand episode.

Where’s Robert Smith of the Cure when you need him?

227 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:46:01am

re: #220 FrogMarch

Oh I hate those. Mine has a nice ding dong. It’s very pleasant.

Or the alarm clock voice from the original Andromeda Strain movie, saying “your clothes are dry, sir.” [or Madame]

228 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:46:10am

re: #226 Honorary Yooper

Where’s Robert Smith of the Cure when you need him?

re: #224 Guanxi88

Puny Human Candidate # 1, Puny Human Candidate # 2, and Morbo’s close personal friend, Richard Nixon.

I really need these laughs today. Thank you sincerely.

229 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:47:39am

re: #200 marjoriemoon

I’d love to continue Taunting you, but I must dash :)

See ya’ll later lizards.

I just looked up the word TAUNTING in the dictionary

Funny, but it does not mean
“make ridiculous unsupportable claims!”

odd!

230 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:47:44am

re: #98 Surabaya Stew

And no, this is not a partisan position I’m pushing you into; frankly, I feel the only difference between McCain and Obama is that rather than wasting our money on a stimulus package, he’d be wasting it on a new war.

And that if McCain/Palin were elected we’d all be obsessing over the state of his health.

231 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:47:51am

re: #228 imp_62

I really need these laughs today. Thank you sincerely.

“How’s the family, Morbo?”

“Numerous and belligerent.”

“Well that’s great. You know, Dick Nixon loves families and war.”

232 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:48:31am

re: #227 Occasional Reader

Or the alarm clock voice from the original Andromeda Strain movie, saying “your clothes are dry, sir.” [or Madame]

Signals Magazine used to have the coolest alarm clock: it acted like a butler and would say different things each day. I think it had over 100 sayings that it could use to get you up, all so polite and yet determined to get you out of bed. They don’t seem to have it now.

233 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:48:37am

re: #231 Guanxi88

“How’s the family, Morbo?”

“Numerous and belligerent.”

“Well that’s great. You know, Dick Nixon loves families and war.”

Bits of everything bagel with cream cheese just came shooting out of my nose.

234 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:48:47am

re: #225 vxbush

We’re getting a new washer on Monday. I have no idea if the buzzer will be nice or hideous. But it should be a great improvement over the washer we have now.

I had to do the same thing about a year ago. Did you purchase the front load type? I have LG, something like this, and I love love love it.

235 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:49:03am

re: #231 Guanxi88

“How’s the family, Morbo?”

“Numerous and belligerent.”

“Well that’s great. You know, Dick Nixon loves families and war.”


Clearly, I’m missing a most excellent show!

236 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:49:09am

So much for the claims that public option are dead. Harry Reid says that the Senate will pass public option as part of the health care bill.

U.S. Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., said today there will be a “public option” in whatever health insurance reform bill comes out of Congress.

“We are going to have a public option before this bill goes to the president’s desk,” Reid said in a conference call with constituents, referring to some kind of government plan.

“I believe the public option is so vitally important to create a level playing field and prevent the insurance companies from taking advantage of us,” he said.

So, instead of insurance companies taking advantage, the government is doing that job? Great, I feel so much better knowing that the government, which can’t run the IHS or VA sufficiently is suddenly going to do a bang-up job for all of the health care delivery system. Heck, it can’t balance its obligations and revenues for Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security, the CBO says that the cost savings are a mirage, and that taxes will have to rise to balance things out, but we’re supposed to feel better about all this?

237 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:49:11am

re: #233 imp_62

Bits of everything bagel with cream cheese just came shooting out of my nose.

Hope the caraway didn’t get stuck. Ouch.

238 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:49:29am

re: #210 lawhawk

Thanks.
I was considering costs for the same procedures, not differences in mandated coverage.
I could see that if interstate competition is allowed, then there would have to be sufficient regulation that if you bought hospital coverage, it would cover reasonable and customary coverage for your state or emergency coverage wherever you were if you were traveling.
Then yes, some companies wouldn’t offer policies in high cost states.

BTW, the insurance I have (Fallon) restricts what they will cover at Mass General, so they can keep costs lower. I don’t have a choice for other coverage where I work, but I’m not complaining either. I’d rather not go someplace expensive unless it was absolutely necessary, just like I prefer older (and cheaper) medications than newer ones, assuming they work. (Besides, the older ones generally have well-known side effects.)

239 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:50:03am

re: #234 FrogMarch

Wait - was it really only $969???

240 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:50:10am

re: #211 vxbush

Happy Friday, everyone.

We’re talking insurance, eh? I’ve had good and bad experiences with insurance companies. In general, I would suggest more competition is good, but I know first hand the types of games insurance companies can play. I’ve had to take one to court, and realize that not everyone will feel they can do that.

Especially if you have to sue them in their home state instead of yours.

241 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:50:43am

re: #234 FrogMarch

I had to do the same thing about a year ago. Did you purchase the front load type? I have LG, something like this, and I love love love it.

We’ve had a front-loader before and loved it, but I have serious moisture problems in my basement, and a lot of people complain about mold and milder smells developing in the washer. Given those concerns, i decided to get a high-efficiency top loader. a Whirlpool that’s rated #1 by Consumer Reports.

242 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:50:45am

re: #237 Creeping Eruption

Hope the caraway didn’t get stuck. Ouch.

Actually left my nose at ca. 110mph and is now embedded in the wall, having narrowly missed the dog.

243 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:51:03am

re: #236 lawhawk

“I believe the public option is so vitally important to create a level playing field

Somewhere, Orwell is smiling.

244 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:51:08am

re: #223 vxbush

It’s fascinating to compare different industries and see what profit margins are considered “necessary” or “acceptable.” I knew a company that was upset when it didn’t grow by 15% every year.

15% - that’s some nice growth right there.
Some insurance companies need a kick in the pants. However, the vilification of private industry from within the government left was unsettling.

245 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:51:51am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Why are you asking me? Unless I am missing something, it was he who made campaign promise after promise that he would turn unemployment around. Go ask him.

Go find out yourself where most of the stimulus money went to (existing special interests and big business), check out how much of the stimulus money actually filtered down to actual spending AFTER the administrative costs were raked off the top. You do a little research, cause, I already have, and I am not talking out my ass like some people.

Play again?

Disclaimer: I voted for Barr.

You can argue one way or another about the positive or negative effects of the stimulus package, but I don’t see an alternative plan being put forth. Everything I’ve read indicates to me that what we’ve done has been the best of a set of bad options.

We can argue all day about the root causes, but I still think the Bush and Obama administration have been doing the best they can with a very ugly situation.

246 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:03am

re: #242 imp_62

Actually left my nose at ca. 110mph and is now embedded in the wall, having narrowly missed the dog.

Shrapnel

247 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:06am

re: #240 Kosh’s Shadow

Especially if you have to sue them in their home state instead of yours.

In my case, because the insurance was an employee benefit, I had to sue in federal court. But it was in-state, so I was fortunate.

248 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:20am

re: #240 Kosh’s Shadow

Especially if you have to sue them in their home state instead of yours.

You should not have to. If they are doing business with you in your state, you can claim that the appropriate jurisdiction is where you are, and file for forum non conveniens if they try to move it to their home state.

249 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:20am

re: #240 Kosh’s Shadow

Especially if you have to sue them in their home state instead of yours.

You wouldn’t have to. If they’re doing business in your state, you could establish jurisdiction there.

250 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:21am

re: #236 lawhawk

So much for the claims that public option are dead. Harry Reid says that the Senate will pass public option as part of the health care bill.

So, instead of insurance companies taking advantage, the government is doing that job? Great, I feel so much better knowing that the government, which can’t run the IHS or VA sufficiently is suddenly going to do a bang-up job for all of the health care delivery system. Heck, it can’t balance its obligations and revenues for Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security, the CBO says that the cost savings are a mirage, and that taxes will have to rise to balance things out, but we’re supposed to feel better about all this?

And you can sue the insurance companies, and often get help from the government regulators. Try suing the government some time.

251 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:52:49am

re: #230 sagehen

And that if McCain/Palin were elected we’d all be obsessing over the state of his health.

This is also very true!

252 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:53:06am

Got work to do… adios.

253 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:53:20am

re: #249 Occasional Reader

You wouldn’t have to. If they’re doing business in your state, you could establish jurisdiction there.

re: #248 imp_62

You should not have to. If they are doing business with you in your state, you can claim that the appropriate jurisdiction is where you are, and file for forum non conveniens if they try to move it to their home state.

Simultaneous posts with the same answer. Has this ever happened before?

254 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:54:06am

re: #235 insert name here

Clearly, I’m missing a most excellent show!

Linda: “And so with two weeks left in the campaign, the question on everyone’s mind is, who will be the president of Earth? Jack Johnson or bitter rival John Jackson. Two terrific candidates, Morbo?”
Morbo: “All humans are vermin in the eyes of Morbo!”
Linda: “The sheer drama of this election has driven voter turnout to it’s highest level in centuries, six percent.”
Morbo: “Exit poll show evil underdog Richard Nixon trailing with estimated zero votes.”
Linda: “The time is 7:59 and the robot polls are now opening. And robot votes are now in. Nixon has won.”
Morbo: “Morbo congratulates our gargantuan cyborg president. May death come quickly to his enemies.”

255 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:54:09am

re: #236 lawhawk

So much for the claims that public option are dead. Harry Reid says that the Senate will pass public option as part of the health care bill.

So, instead of insurance companies taking advantage, the government is doing that job? Great, I feel so much better knowing that the government, which can’t run the IHS or VA sufficiently is suddenly going to do a bang-up job for all of the health care delivery system. Heck, it can’t balance its obligations and revenues for Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security, the CBO says that the cost savings are a mirage, and that taxes will have to rise to balance things out, but we’re supposed to feel better about all this?

Never mind the fact that Harry Reid is the most disgusting two-face/double speak we have representing this nation. Just a few weeks ago he said that a public option wouldn’t be good for Nevada.

256 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:54:23am

Regarding the washer: mine is almost identical to this one.

257 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:54:34am

re: #248 imp_62

You should not have to. If they are doing business with you in your state, you can claim that the appropriate jurisdiction is where you are, and file for forum non conveniens if they try to move it to their home state.

I’ve seen many contracts that bury in the fine print that the laws of their home state apply, and that’s where you’d have to sue.
OTOH, regulators could require that policies sold in one state can be enforced in that state, and ban such fine print.

258 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:55:07am

re: #241 vxbush

We’ve had a front-loader before and loved it, but I have serious moisture problems in my basement, and a lot of people complain about mold and milder smells developing in the washer. Given those concerns, i decided to get a high-efficiency top loader. a Whirlpool that’s rated #1 by Consumer Reports.

That should be good. Just having the newer technology is a huge improvement.

259 Irish Rose  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:55:16am

Time for class, have a good morning everyone.

260 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:55:45am

re: #244 FrogMarch

15% - that’s some nice growth right there.
Some insurance companies need a kick in the pants. However, the vilification of private industry from within the government left was is unsettling.

pimf

261 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:55:50am

re: #220 FrogMarch

Oh I hate those. Mine has a nice ding dong. It’s very pleasant.

I’m on the fourth floor and the dryer is on the second one so it has to be loud.

262 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:56:00am

Morbo: “Morbo demands an answer to the following question. If you saw a delicious candy in the hands of a small child. Would you seize and consume it?”
John Jackson: “Unthinkable.”
Jack Johnson: “I wouldn’t think of it.”
Morbo: “What about you Mr. Nixon? I remind you. You are under of a truth-o-scope.”
Nixon: “Question is vague. You don’t say what kind of candy and whether anyone is watching. In anyway I certainly wouldn’t harm the child.”

263 insert name here  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:56:12am

re: #254 Guanxi88

Thanks, Guanxi88!

Doing Snoopy Happy Dance…

264 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:56:14am

re: #256 vxbush

Regarding the washer: mine is almost identical to this one.

PIMF: this one.

265 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:56:25am

re: #221 Spare O’Lake

If you dryer buzzer, will she thank you or spank you?

She’ll giggle.

266 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:57:14am

re: #257 Kosh’s Shadow

I’ve seen many contracts that bury in the fine print that the laws of their home state apply, and that’s where you’d have to sue.
OTOH, regulators could require that policies sold in one state can be enforced in that state, and ban such fine print.

The laws of the home state can be applied by a court in your home state. Plus, standard conflict of laws provisions will apply and under some circumstances, the choice of law provision may be voided.

267 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:57:26am

Meanwhile, in a spot of good news, another al Qaeda linked terrorist bit the dust in Pakistan as a result of a UAV airstrike. It looks like our intel from the region has been vastly improved over the past year, and the CIA and US military have definitely been reaping the benefits of that intel by taking down thugs from Mehsud on down.

268 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:57:29am

re: #236 lawhawk

So much for the claims that public option are dead. Harry Reid says that the Senate will pass public option as part of the health care bill.

So, instead of insurance companies taking advantage, the government is doing that job? Great, I feel so much better knowing that the government, which can’t run the IHS or VA sufficiently is suddenly going to do a bang-up job for all of the health care delivery system. Heck, it can’t balance its obligations and revenues for Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security, the CBO says that the cost savings are a mirage, and that taxes will have to rise to balance things out, but we’re supposed to feel better about all this?

Yep, we will be more like Europe, which is apparently the goal. I’ve lived there for three years (in Belgium), and the typical person did not seem better off than the typical American. I like all of these Googled statistics that are bandied about concerning Europe, without regard to the ground truth.

I also lived for five years in Japan, and would not prefer living there either. If I win the lottery, I would like to live in the English countryside, but that’s not for their ‘wonderful’ government programs.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Labour in the next election over in the UK; it would seem that they are doing everything they can to delay it because of the recent scandals and the tremendous unpopularity of Gordon Brown.

269 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:57:49am

re: #259 Irish Rose

Time for class, have a good morning everyone.

Good morning, teacher. I forgot my homework.

270 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:57:56am

re: #239 imp_62

Wait - was it really only $969???

Top of the line LG’s are not necessary for clean clothes. I bought the no-frills model and I am as pleased as punch.

271 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:58:11am

re: #252 Occasional Reader

Got work to do… adios.

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

272 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:58:43am

re: #242 imp_62

Actually left my nose at ca. 110mph and is now embedded in the wall, having narrowly missed the dog.

So you drove your caraway?

273 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 7:58:58am

re: #109 FrogMarch

There are Youtube videos that show Obama saying outright that “if we could start over, he would prefer a single payer system”.
To be fair, he has backed off, but obviously that is due to the weight of public opinion. The Congressional Progressive Caucus is pushing the single payer or “public option.”

And then he follows that with “of course we can’t start over, we have to build from what we have now.”

And the “public option” is not single payer; it’s letting people who don’t have coverage through their employment, make too much to be eligible for medicaid, and can’t buy on the individual market (because they or a family member has a pre-existing condition) buy into medicare.

“Single payer” is what they have in Canada — the gov’t is the only company paying bills, but the doctors and hospitals are owned by a variety of entites (some public, some private). “Socialized medicine” is what they have in the UK (the govt owns the hospitals and pays the doctors a salary). Switzerland has all private insurance companies, but heavily regulated.

Every one of those countries spends 1/2 per capita what we spend on health care; half the GDP percentage that we spend; and they all have longer life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates and nobody goes bankrupt from medical bills.

274 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:00:34am

Great googlymoogly, it’s morning!

Good morning, y’all!

275 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:01:11am

re: #274 MrSilverDragon

Great googlymoogly, it’s morning!

Good morning, y’all!

I miss Frank

276 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:01:29am

re: #62 Ojoe

This economy sucks. There are no projects on my drafting boards. In 6-8 months there will be no crews building, with a multiplier effect of 20. I’ve sent in an application to drive busses.

It is folly to have ignited a shouting match about health care without first fixing the economy, and it is trivial to pitch for the Olympics in Chicago when the Mullahs are building the bomb.

But that’s just my opinion.

You mean the the trip where Obama met with McCrystal face to face to discuss Afghanistan. McCrystal was in London, and hopped over to Copenhagen where he had an opportunity to meet without disrupting McCrystal’s schedule.

I suppose pitching for an event that could bring tens or hundreds of billions in investment production and revenue, while also having an opportunity to have a meeting with the commander on the ground of a major conflict we’re in the middle of really just that trivial.

But that’s just my opinion.

277 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:01:30am

re: #274 MrSilverDragon

Great googlymoogly, it’s morning!

Good morning, y’all!

Beast? Is that you?

278 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:02:45am

re: #273 sagehen

A public option will lead to a single payer system. Eventually employers will abandon their insurance plans because they will be encouraged financially to dump them. Then we will have no choice but to merge into the “public plan”. Eventually, the public plan will be the only plan.
That’s progress on the road.
We shall see.

279 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:04:44am

re: #194 MandyManners

Down in the Metro area?

Ok, I’m back from getting ready, have a 1/2 hour.

Yes, West Metro. About 18 miles from where i am in the mountains.

280 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:05:11am

Egads, but my building is absolutely freezing today. Anybody got two sticks I can rub together

281 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:05:34am

re: #272 Spare O’Lake

So you drove your caraway?

That’s a sage question.

282 wiffersnapper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:05:54am

That gave me a good chuckle

283 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:06:08am

re: #280 vxbush

Egads, but my building is absolutely freezing today. Anybody got two sticks I can rub together

It’s 24 degrees up here this morning.

284 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:06:13am

re: #281 MandyManners

That’s a sage question.

Thymely. Very thymely.

285 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:06:35am

re: #279 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I’m back from getting ready, have a 1/2 hour.

Yes, West Metro. About 18 miles from where i am in the mountains.

I think I know the area. Not as built up as Cherry Creek but, it’s getting that way.

286 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:01am

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

It’s 24 degrees up here this morning.

Yes, but I’m not in the mountains. I’m on the plains of Illinois. It may be 47 degrees outside, but it feels like it’s 30 inside.

287 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:03am

re: #280 vxbush

Egads, but my building is absolutely freezing today. Anybody got two sticks I can rub together

Pencils?

288 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:06am

re: #278 FrogMarch

A public option will lead to a single payer system. Eventually employers will abandon their insurance plans because they will be encouraged financially to dump them. Then we will have no choice but to merge into the “public plan”. Eventually, the public plan will be the only plan.
That’s progress on the road.
We shall see.

And if they do insist on making sure everyone has insurance, a subsidy to the poor to buy private insurance would be better. The subsidy would go directly to the insurance company, and would be adjusted depending on the person’s income.
Of course, the government would do something stupid like “under $xxx, you get the subsidy, over it you lose it” giving a disincentive to earning more, instead of gradually reducing the subsidy.

289 thedopefishlives  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:24am

re: #284 lawhawk

Thymely. Very thymely.

There you go, peppering the conversation with puns.

290 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:33am

re: #287 MandyManners

Pencils?

I think the graphite would allow for too much lubrication…I need flames, woman!

291 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:07:49am

re: #284 lawhawk

Thymely. Very thymely.

It’s the yeast I could do.

292 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:08:20am

re: #285 MandyManners

I think I know the area. Not as built up as Cherry Creek but, it’s getting that way.

Not quite, right along the Front Range, not even in Denver Country.

293 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:08:31am

re: #286 vxbush

Yes, but I’m not in the mountains. I’m on the plains of Illinois. It may be 47 degrees outside, but it feels like it’s 30 inside.

Space heater?

294 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:08:50am

re: #284 lawhawk

Thymely. Very thymely.

Might as well get this out of the way now:

295 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:09:18am

re: #290 vxbush

I think the graphite would allow for too much lubrication…I need flames, woman!

Lighter and cleaning fluid.

296 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:09:21am

re: #293 MandyManners

Space heater?

No, I don’t have one, and I’m seriously thinking I need one. I don’t think we have any spares around here…

Maybe I should just start keeping blankets in my office. Perhaps that would indicate my displeasure.

297 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:09:32am

re: #293 MandyManners

Space heater?

Maisey the Parrot has ice in her water bowl.

298 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:09:48am

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Not quite, right along the Front Range, not even in Denver Country.

Arapahoe or JeffCo?

299 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:09:55am

re: #296 vxbush

No, I don’t have one, and I’m seriously thinking I need one. I don’t think we have any spares around here…

Maybe I should just start keeping blankets in my office. Perhaps that would indicate my displeasure.

Put in a purchase order for a snuggie.

300 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:10:34am

re: #296 vxbush

No, I don’t have one, and I’m seriously thinking I need one. I don’t think we have any spares around here…

Maybe I should just start keeping blankets in my office. Perhaps that would indicate my displeasure.

Take a hammer to the little plastic box surrounding the thermostat!

301 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:10:45am

re: #299 Kosh’s Shadow

Put in a purchase order for a snuggie.

Light a fire in the trash can by your desk;

302 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:10:46am

re: #295 MandyManners

Lighter and cleaning fluid.

This may be my best shot…

303 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:10:55am

re: #298 MandyManners

Arapahoe or JeffCo?

Close enough.

304 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:10:56am

re: #297 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot has ice in her water bowl.

WHAT!

305 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:11:21am

re: #300 MandyManners

Take a hammer to the little plastic box surrounding the thermostat!

No need to. The thermostat doesn’t work. It’s just for show.

306 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:11:30am

re: #299 Kosh’s Shadow

Put in a purchase order for a snuggie.

It now comes in animal prints!

307 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:12:05am

re: #306 MandyManners

It now comes in animal prints!

Oh, that is sooo tempting…

308 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:13:16am

re: #231 Guanxi88

“Kittens give Morbo gas.”

309 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:13:20am

re: #273 sagehen

And then he follows that with “of course we can’t start over, we have to build from what we have now.”


Every one of those countries spends 1/2 per capita what we spend on health care; half the GDP percentage that we spend; and they all have longer life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates and nobody goes bankrupt from medical bills.

And in everyone of those countries, sick people die while waiting for life-saving treatments. Many opt to go to America. Good doctors and nurses have fled to look for work in …The USA.
We do need to fix some problems, but we do not need to emulate a system where rationed care and poor quality care are the norm.

310 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:13:27am

Oh, yeah; that’s the look for the office.

311 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:13:29am

re: #302 vxbush

This may be my best shot…

Golly. No wonder the can says to keep it from open flames.

312 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:13:53am

re: #304 MandyManners

WHAT!

Maisey the Parrot is having a good time since we moved. There are three dogs, two cats, 2 kid critters, lots of native noises coming from outside, Maisey loves the input.

I keep a 40 watt light bulb above her cage to give her a little added warmth.

313 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:14:06am

re: #305 vxbush

No need to. The thermostat doesn’t work. It’s just for show.

I blame men.

314 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:14:14am

re: #309 FrogMarch

And in everyone of those countries, sick people die while waiting for life-saving treatments. Many opt to go to America. Good doctors and nurses have fled to look for work in …The USA.
We do need to fix some problems, but we do not need to emulate a system where rationed care and poor quality care are the norm.

Sorry but I hae to call bullshit on this statement. In Germany and Switzerland, care is immediate, of the highest quality, and covered by private insurance.

315 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:15:11am

re: #313 MandyManners

I blame men.

Well, they do seem to be the ones who install the systems. And they don’t have estrogen coursing through their veins messing with their internal heat regulation. Yeah, that works.

316 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:15:21am

re: #314 imp_62

Sorry but I hae to call bullshit on this statement. In Germany and Switzerland, care is immediate, of the highest quality, and covered by private insurance.

And what is the over all tax rate, total on an average family?

317 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:15:31am

In honor of my mile-stone post number today, I’m dispensing up-dings to one and all.

*mwah*

318 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:16:03am

re: #308 Ojoe

“Kittens give Morbo gas.”

That is not how windmills work!

319 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:16:07am

re: #315 vxbush

Well, they do seem to be the ones who install the systems. And they don’t have estrogen coursing through their veins messing with their internal heat regulation. Yeah, that works.

And, they have bigger, thicker bodies.

320 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:16:14am

Frost killed the last of the tomato plants…(Can’t watch Hulu videos — Hulu is available only to those living in the States… :(

321 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:16:15am

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot is having a good time since we moved. There are three dogs, two cats, 2 kid critters, lots of native noises coming from outside, Maisey loves the input.

I keep a 40 watt light bulb above her cage to give her a little added warmth.

Pretty funny. Here: 1 parrot, 2 dogs, 2 rabbits, fish. 3 kid critters.

322 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:16:35am

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

M
I keep a 40 watt light bulb above her cage to give her a little added warmth.

My folks did the same thing for me when I was a kid.

323 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:17:03am

re: #301 Guanxi88

Light a fire in the trash can by your desk;

Is that you, Milton?

324 FrogMarch  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:17:08am

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot is having a good time since we moved. There are three dogs, two cats, 2 kid critters, lots of native noises coming from outside, Maisey loves the input.

I keep a 40 watt light bulb above her cage to give her a little added warmth.

brrr. You better up it to 60.

325 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:17:18am

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Maisey the Parrot is having a good time since we moved. There are three dogs, two cats, 2 kid critters, lots of native noises coming from outside, Maisey loves the input.

I keep a 40 watt light bulb above her cage to give her a little added warmth.

Why not buy her a little Snuggie?

326 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:17:25am

re: #322 Guanxi88

My folks did the same thing for me when I was a kid.

I got electric blankets. I was treated like a princess.

327 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:17:58am

re: #323 Kosh’s Shadow

Is that you, Milton?

I’d rather not set of the fire suppression system; I’d have to clean up the mess of broken computers.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:18:24am

re: #57 insert name here

Agreed. And so was Limbaugh’s crack about Chelsea Clinton being the “White House Dog.”

Agreed. Making fun of politician’s kids is cheap and rotten. I kind of like the Spanish law where you can’t show politician’s kids’ pictures in the paper.

329 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:18:35am

re: #321 imp_62

Pretty funny. Here: 1 parrot, 2 dogs, 2 rabbits, fish. 3 kid critters.

The Kid, a cat, a dog, a hamster and an unknown number of skinks. Also, we have deer, foxes and maybe one more feral pig.

330 Semper Fi  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:18:36am

re: #148 Ojoe

How can you have a middle class without a middle party?

D - poor party

R - rich party

I have long thought a new US political party is needed. More so as of late with the GOP headed toward oblivion.

331 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:18:48am

re: #325 MandyManners

Why not buy her a little Snuggie?

Because they shit in them. Ever try to clean out a pooped snuggie?

Actually they do make clothing for parrots.

332 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:19:43am

re: #316 Walter L. Newton

And what is the over all tax rate, total on an average family?

I already posted a link to that effect. Plus an anecdotal review of the actual difference in taxes paid in Switzerland, Germany the UK and the US. The bottom line is that taxes in the States are not as low as you think, and taxes in parts of Europe not as high as you suspect. Plus, based on personal experience, I would ten times rather have a surgical procedure in Switzerland or Germany than in some second tier hospitals in the US. And the qulity of care is at least equal to that in the States.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:19:46am

re: #60 ggt

You know, money is suppossed to make men sexy —some primal thing.

That doesn’t seem to apply (IMHO) to two men that I can think of right now:

Letterman and

Bill Gates.


I wouldn’t touch either of them with a 10 foot pole in 100 years.


Bill Gates is not particularly sexy, to me at any rate, but he seems to be a good husband, and a very smart philanthropist. And Melinda seems pleased with him.

334 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:19:51am

re: #330 Semper Fi

You might check out the Modern Whig Party at:

www dot ModernWhig dot org.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:20:12am

re: #331 Walter L. Newton

Because they shit in them. Ever try to clean out a pooped snuggie?

Actually they do make clothing for parrots.

Not that I recall.

Any pirate clothes?

336 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:20:49am

re: #329 MandyManners

The Kid, …and maybe one more feral pig.


That is no way to talk about your mother-in-law.

337 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:22:42am

re: #336 imp_62

That is no way to talk about your mother-in-law.

That’s funny but, I’m divorced.

338 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:23:03am

re: #336 imp_62

That is no way to talk about your mother-in-law.

Ouch

339 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:23:08am

re: #332 imp_62

I already posted a link to that effect. Plus an anecdotal review of the actual difference in taxes paid in Switzerland, Germany the UK and the US. The bottom line is that taxes in the States are not as low as you think, and taxes in parts of Europe not as high as you suspect. Plus, based on personal experience, I would ten times rather have a surgical procedure in Switzerland or Germany than in some second tier hospitals in the US. And the qulity of care is at least equal to that in the States.

I didn’t see the link, and you didn’t answer my question. I know something about European taxes, and I wanted to see you take on it.

You don’t know what I know or think, do you.

340 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:24:18am

“Brown Jobs Czar”

You know we need one.

341 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:04am

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

re: #93 imp_62

The average tax burden in many European countries is equal to that in the U.S. or lower, depending on local variables. Note Switzerland, which has the highest quality of living (based on recent polls) and the city - Zurich - with the highest desirability amongst expatriates.
[Link: www.google.com…]

re: #142 imp_62

No need to be belligerent.

Sorry I missed your post. You are correct with a qualifier for empirical evidence: US law requires US expatriates to pay the positive difference between what your US taxes would have been and what your foreign taxes are. I.e. if I would have to pay $10 in the US and have paid $8 in London, then I owe the IRS $2. There was a time when almost no-one had to pay into that scheme. Now, most people do as the US taxes have caught up with and in some cases surpassed rates in European countries.
342 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:07am

re: #335 MandyManners

Not that I recall.

Any pirate clothes?

Arrrh! Our smallest poodle likes to climb on my shoulder. I try to tell him no pirate would have a poodle on his shoulder, but he doesn’t care. He also doesn’t seem to think falling off might be a problem.

343 Danny  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:13am

Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way…

[Link: www.time.com…]

344 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:18am

re: #184 Kosh’s Shadow

Good luck. Various companies in CA got in trouble because if someone had a major illness, they’d look for any errors on the application that they could use to claim that the information was not complete, or in error, and therefore the coverage was canceled. I think now it is better, after that.

Any improvements are because the state AG forced it on them; if it were an out-of-state company, he wouldn’t have jurisdiction and couldn’t do a thing about it.

345 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:29am

Ouch…Chicago is out (? ! ! !?)

346 Guanxi88  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:56am

re: #340 Ojoe

“Brown Jobs Czar”

You know we need one.

Master-Blaster as the new Brown Energy Czar:

347 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:25:57am

re: #337 MandyManners

That’s funny but, I’m divorced.

You had one at one time…

348 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:26:17am

wow. I don’t believe it…Tokyo is in?

349 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:27:56am

In the first round — Chicago is eliminated for the Olympic 2016 bid?

350 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:01am

If you own rental properties in Chicago, sell them.

351 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:17am

re: #349 J.S.

In the first round — Chicago is eliminated for the Olympic 2016 bid?

Link?

352 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:20am

I think Rio will get it now

353 vxbush  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:33am

re: #349 J.S.

In the first round — Chicago is eliminated for the Olympic 2016 bid?

Heh. And all the pundits who said Chicago was in the will have to eat a lot of crow today.

354 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:33am

Brown economy.

355 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:39am

re: #347 imp_62

You had one at one time…

Together about nine months and about 2.5 years to divorce.

356 sagehen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:45am

re: #201 imp_62

Wait a second. Did you even read my comment??


yeah… i was adding on, not disputing

Sorry I didn’t make that clearer.

357 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:49am

re: #341 imp_62

And of course, add the various levels of the European Union VAT taxes… mandatory tips… mandatory extra charges for certain services… need I go on?

There are so many taxing mechanisms in Europe that when you look at the WHOLE picture, it is much higher than most US tax rates.

358 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:49am

re: #351 Creeping Eruption

It’s on CNN (everyone’s stunned…)

359 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:28:52am

watch SportsCenter on ESPN … they are live from Chicago

360 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:29:21am

re: #356 sagehen

yeah… i was adding on, not disputing

Sorry I didn’t make that clearer.

Gotcha - thanks for clearing that up.

361 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:30:00am

re: #358 J.S.

It’s on CNN (everyone’s stunned…)

Wonder what the going rate for the average IOC member is this round?

362 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:30:16am

Tokyo out too …

madrid vs Rio …

Rio will get it

363 Mauser  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:30:23am

re: #353 vxbush

Heh. And all the pundits who said Chicago was in the will have to eat a lot of crow today.

Nope, it’s all down the Memory Hole. On to the next story polishing Obama.

364 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:30:31am

re: #361 Creeping Eruption

You can probably get a package discount - the economy, you know

365 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:31:08am

again, wow…everyone figured the first host city to be eliminated would have been Tokyo…

366 SixDegrees  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:31:38am

re: #273 sagehen


Every one of those countries spends 1/2 per capita what we spend on health care; half the GDP percentage that we spend; and they all have longer life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates and nobody goes bankrupt from medical bills.

See my earlier post on why this claim is, to be blunt, meaningless bullshit.

367 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:33:32am

re: #357 Walter L. Newton

And of course, add the various levels of the European Union VAT taxes… mandatory tips… mandatory extra charges for certain services… need I go on?

There are so many taxing mechanisms in Europe that when you look at the WHOLE picture, it is much higher than most US tax rates.

Whatever. You can make numbers and statistics work any way you want. And besides, there are many establishments in the US with automatic gratuities, and tip percentages in Europe are far lower than in the States. And next time you file taxes, think about the complexity of the tax system in the States and how it is designed to overtax you simply through befuddlement.

368 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:34:24am

re: #362 _RememberTonyC

Tokyo out too …

madrid vs Rio …

Rio will get it

Fine, let Rio have it. I have a feeling that decision will come back to bite the IOC in the ass.

369 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:34:33am

re: #349 J.S.

In the first round — Chicago is eliminated for the Olympic 2016 bid?

But I thought the world loved Obama and if he asked they’d listen.
///
Or maybe they thought the games would be harder to play in bulletproof vests.
///

370 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:35:16am

re: #368 Honorary Yooper

Fine, let Rio have it. I have a feeling that decision will come back to bite the IOC in the ass.

Barcelona had it in 1992 (I was there for NBC) … it’s too soon to give it to Spain again. That’s why I think Rio is in

371 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:35:37am

re: #349 J.S.

In the first round — Chicago is eliminated for the Olympic 2016 bid?

Well, crud. I suppose I’ll be rooting for Rio now.

372 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:36:22am

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

I didn’t see the link, and you didn’t answer my question. I know something about European taxes, and I wanted to see you take on it.

You don’t know what I know or think, do you.

Also, when discussing tax burdens, one must include ALL taxes - VAT, usage taxes and so forth. You can’t just look at income taxes and compare them.

I’ve lived there - I know better than what is being represented.

373 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:36:27am

re: #362 _RememberTonyC

Tokyo out too …

madrid vs Rio …

Rio will get it


WOW…I’m pretty amazed at this…but this quote from NBC sports may explain some on the reasoning behind the IOC vote:

An uncomfortable moment for Chicago came when an IOC member from Pakistan, Syed Shahid Ali, noted that going through U.S. customs can be harrowing for foreigners.

374 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:36:30am

So would it be fair to say that the Obamas embarrassed the office of the President by injecting it so directly into Chicago’s Olympic bid process?

375 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:37:40am

re: #372 Dreader1962

Also, when discussing tax burdens, one must include ALL taxes - VAT, usage taxes and so forth. You can’t just look at income taxes and compare them.

I’ve lived there - I know better than what is being represented.

So, what do you know?

376 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:38:29am

re: #374 Spare O’Lake

So would it be fair to say that the Obamas embarrassed the office of the President by injecting it so directly into Chicago’s Olympic bid process?

No. The President of Brazil and the KIng of Spain were there as well.

377 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:38:42am

re: #373 Surabaya Stew

excellent point … and I’m glad we’ve tightened up in that area

378 Dreader1962  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:39:16am

re: #367 imp_62

Whatever. You can make numbers and statistics work any way you want. And besides, there are many establishments in the US with automatic gratuities, and tip percentages in Europe are far lower than in the States. And next time you file taxes, think about the complexity of the tax system in the States and how it is designed to overtax you simply through befuddlement.

‘Whatever’? You hint at statistics to compare tax levels and claim that there is a lower burden in Europe and when called on it, you declaim statistics?

When your argument degenerates to citing tips, you have lost.

379 J.S.  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:39:44am

re: #371 bloodstar

yeah…(in Rio it’s been declared a civic holiday — and there are thousands and thousands seated in a stadium — they all expect Rio to win — trust they won’t be disappointed…)

380 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:40:46am

re: #370 _RememberTonyC

Barcelona had it in 1992 (I was there for NBC) … it’s too soon to give it to Spain again. That’s why I think Rio is in

Wonder what the IOC will say when they have to deal with the massive amounts of crime in Rio?

381 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:42:12am

re: #380 Honorary Yooper

Wonder what the IOC will say when they have to deal with the massive amounts of crime in Rio?


their problem :)

382 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:43:06am

re: #378 Dreader1962

‘Whatever’? You hint at statistics to compare tax levels and claim that there is a lower burden in Europe and when called on it, you declaim statistics?

When your argument degenerates to citing tips, you have lost.

Not a hint, a link to an analysis. Plus, for those who start to delve into definitions of “burden” vs. “rates” a valid empirical view on the reality of tax payments. And the argument is not to be lost or won. You will continue to claim victory because of your ability to quote shifting definitions on a revolving basis. That is where “whatever” comes in. I don’t discuss with people whose sentiments and positions are set in stone.

383 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:49:13am

re: #377 _RememberTonyC

excellent point … and I’m glad we’ve tightened up in that area

Well, having a high level of border security is certainly a laudable goal, but when it comes at the expense of making foreigners afraid to visit us, it rather defeats the whole idea of being an open country. The horror stories faced by visitors at our ports are numerous, chilling and embarrassing to read and think about. Frankly, I can’t blame the IOC for turning us down for that reason alone!

BTW-this problem has been going on since at least Clinton’s time, so it’s certainly a bi-partisan mess…

384 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:53:22am

re: #383 Surabaya Stew

Well, having a high level of border security is certainly a laudable goal, but when it comes at the expense of making foreigners afraid to visit us, it rather defeats the whole idea of being an open country. The horror stories faced by visitors at our ports are numerous, chilling and embarrassing to read and think about. Frankly, I can’t blame the IOC for turning us down for that reason alone!

BTW-this problem has been going on since at least Clinton’s time, so it’s certainly a bi-partisan mess…


Sorry, but I can’t apologize for keeping our country safe. I just heard Jim Lampley of NBC on ESPNEWS blaming George Bush’s administration for Chicago’s failure to get the Games. I think plenty of people are not afraid to visit us. And if we pissed off pakistan, maybe they should ask themselves if they can do anything to help.

385 shutdown  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:54:16am

Rowdy Gaines just blamed GWB for losing the OG for Chicago.

386 poteen  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:57:51am

re: #43 Dreader1962

I find it ironic that we hear all of these types of stories from the left, yet the onerous ‘Sexual Harassment’ classes I received in the ’90s while I was in the Army all would say that his relationships were improper. The ‘irony’ of these classes during the Clinton years was not unnoticed, either.

We had these classes more often than we were able to go to the rifle range, more often than we went to field exercises, more often than we had PT tests, and so on. I would usually comment, “Is this where we learn how to sexually harass people? Because I don’t know how to do that.” The main problem with sexual harassment is not lack of ‘training’ about it; a person who is likely to sexually harass another has a moral/ethical problem. I never witnessed a guy during these classes leap up with a revelation and say, “I understand it now - goosing women in the hallway is wrong!”

I was at my third work related seminar before I found out ” her-ass ” was one word./

387 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:58:06am

so should we blame Japan’s government for them losing out as well?

And if madrid loses to Rio, is it Generallisimo Franco’s fault?

388 CJDate  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:13:02am

re: #88 SixDegrees

Maybe. This came up downstairs. When the boss starts boinking the staff, it raises questions about harassment.

Not saying that happened here, only that it’s a strong possibility.

He’s a celebrity… he gets a pass on this. Now I’m sure he’d be an outcast in the entertainment establishment if he’d drugged and sodomized a 13-year-old girl… oh, wait, nevermind…

389 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:13:13am

re: #384 _RememberTonyC

I think plenty of people are not afraid to visit us. And if we pissed off pakistan, maybe they should ask themselves if they can do anything to help.

I wish it were so, but so many stories keep popping up that in fact demonstrate the reverse. And it’s not just places like Pakistan either.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:24:46am

re: #151 Buck

Gilad Shalit read sections from the newspaper Gaza-based “Falasteen” newspaper from September 14 on his video… I just saw the video on Fox News…

He looks healthy. It is great to see he is alive.

I’m amazed. Please God, we get him out.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:26:43am

re: #186 Dreader1962

Both parties ‘pitch’ to the middle class. They know that it’s where the big number of voters consider themselves. That’s the other thing - it is popular for the majority to consider themselves ‘middle class’, even though there would be disagreement between two people who classified themselves as middle class.

What is the absolute definition of ‘middle class’?

Miss Manners has stated that all American are upper middle class, middle class, or lower middle class, since she has never met an American who would admit to membership in any other group.

392 calcajun  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:37:07am

re: #237 Creeping Eruption

Hope the caraway didn’t get stuck. Ouch.

You know, sesame seeds lodged in the sinus cavity can cause a nasty infection./

393 calcajun  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:40:23am

re: #387 _RememberTonyC

It’s another example of BHO’s fading image. Granted, his presence might not have meant a thing one way or the other. But, it was like his gambit on health care—he put a personal stake on getting it done with the IOC and it looks like he failed— emphasis on “looks”. I don’t care who is in the WH, you don’t put the prestige of that office on the line unless it’s a sure bet.

394 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:40:26am

re: #392 calcajun

You know, sesame seeds lodged in the sinus cavity can cause a nasty infection./

Especially if it sprouts/

395 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 9:57:16am

re: #393 calcajun

It’s another example of BHO’s fading image. Granted, his presence might not have meant a thing one way or the other. But, it was like his gambit on health care—he put a personal stake on getting it done with the IOC and it looks like he failed— emphasis on “looks”. I don’t care who is in the WH, you don’t put the prestige of that office on the line unless it’s a sure bet.

perhaps it is. it seems that much of what the current administration does seems to be reacting instead of planning and then executing the plan.

396 funky chicken  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 10:44:29am

re: #393 calcajun

It’s another example of BHO’s fading image. Granted, his presence might not have meant a thing one way or the other. But, it was like his gambit on health care—he put a personal stake on getting it done with the IOC and it looks like he failed— emphasis on “looks”. I don’t care who is in the WH, you don’t put the prestige of that office on the line unless it’s a sure bet.

I thought it was kinda strange that the Obamas went to Europe to campaign for the thing anyway. I don’t remember if Clinton went to try to bring the 1992 games to SLC though, so maybe it’s customary for the president to be involved in this stuff?

397 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 10:54:56am

re: #396 funky chicken

I thought it was kinda strange that the Obamas went to Europe to campaign for the thing anyway. I don’t remember if Clinton went to try to bring the 1992 games to SLC though, so maybe it’s customary for the president to be involved in this stuff?

No, it isn’t customary at all for any world leader to be involved in the IOC voting process. Trouble is, Blair started the trend in 2005, and his personal appearance was credited with handing London the upset over Paris. This time, the leaders of all 4 candidate countries went to make a pitch in Copenhagen!

398 What, me worry?  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 11:18:24am

re: #90 lawhawk

The promise to kids is working out? How about an unemployment rate of 25% or more for those high schoolers and college trying to find jobs to make ends meet? That’s a direct result of the increased minimum wage that the Democrats pushed through. Instead of creating jobs, the higher minimum wage eliminates jobs and reduces new job opportunities.

The overall unemployment rate is now 9.8% or nearly 2 full points higher than the Administration claimed things would get with the stimulus package in place. And there’s little sign that things are going to get better; particularly as GM winds down Saturn and Pontiac and sheds Hummer and Saab. Sales are down huge for Ford and Chrysler in September as a hangover effect from cash for clunkers takes hold (I warned ya!).

Focusing on education is critical to future competitiveness, and the need to improve education around the nation must be a priority, but so too is the need to make sure that whatever money is spent on education actually ends up in the classroom and not in the massive bureaucracy that functionally inhibits education.

Case in point, I have relatives who are teachers in the NYC school system who get a curriculum from the Dept of Education, and they change the curriculum every few years, even if there’s no good reason to do so. It’s asinine and done so that the upper management can say that they’re doing their jobs, as opposed to improving the actual classroom experience. Besides, everything is geared to passing competency exams, not actually learning or critical thinking - skills necessary for life, let alone work.

Sorry I missed this earlier. I don’t catch all the comments to me, only when I go back and search through. If you’re still here…

First off, the minimum wage was increased in 2007 ON BUSH’S WATCH so you can stop blaming Obama despite the convenience.

Similarly, maybe you’ve been living in a cave, but the economy has taken a nose dive over the last few years. I know it’s all the rage to blame Obama for all our troubles, but the truth is that 8 years of piss poor Republican policy did that and now he’s stuck with resolving it.

I’m not an economist, but “they” say that the economy is actually showing signs of improvement as opposed to your statement that it’s still sinking.

I made my comment upthread about Obama and young people because I’ve noticed he and Michelle have been spending a lot of time with kids of all ages moreso than any other president, or appears to be. It’s a good thing that he cares enough to try to devote time to children and inspire them, particularly given his busy schedule. He may or may not be able to deal with our education problems in his first term depending on how healthcare progresses, but education is one of the 4 things he talked about incessantly. I don’t expect you to know that of course.

But if you think it’s easier to blame Obama for the failing economy, well than have at it. I was only giving praise where praise is due.

399 Why I Never!  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 1:06:26pm

re: #397 Surabaya Stew

No, it isn’t customary at all for any world leader to be involved in the IOC voting process. Trouble is, Blair started the trend in 2005, and his personal appearance was credited with handing London the upset over Paris. This time, the leaders of all 4 candidate countries went to make a pitch in Copenhagen!

So in other words, it wasn’t always customary, but had Obama not gone this year, he would have been the only leader of a candidate country not to go.

So there was nothing unusual at all about his going; this was just the wingnut screechfest of the day.

400 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:05:33pm

re: #399 iceweasel

I couldn’t have said it better myself!

401 Surabaya Stew  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 5:07:11pm

re: #400 Surabaya Stew

Oh wait…I already did…well, err…I couldn’t have clarified it any better myself!

402 RexMundi  Sat, Oct 3, 2009 3:32:19pm

Absolutely hilarious.

403 gnostalgia  Sat, Oct 3, 2009 5:30:39pm

Hee hee …


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