The Iranian nirther movement has begun...

Your smeller is working well. Better keep your distance from that Mr. Beaumont fellow in order to protect it.

Some people want to believe anything.

Who knew?
/

He is proof of evolution: a talking monkey man.

re: #1 bosforus

The Iranian nirther movement has begun...

I can see the photoshop now; A goat eating Ahmadinejad's genealogy.

Ahmadinejad is not a self-hating Jew. He's not Jewish. He's an Islamist through and through, by word and deed.

He just wants to see Israel wiped off the map. Everything else is window dressing. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly tried to claim lineage with Mohammad, and he's hoping to bring about the coming of the Hidden Imam.

Frankly, it reeks of anti-Semitism to spread the nonsense that Ahmadinejad is Jewish - as though that somehow explains or mitigates his statements and positions vis a vis the US.

There was the rumor that Hitler was also Jewish.

Anyone here know how to fake an Israeli birth certificate?

Oh, well. It would have been hilarious if it was true.

Now, how 'bout that recount that was promised, Ahmadinejad?

Good, now we can get back to treating him for what he is, a little monster capable of causing a whole lot of death and destruction in the Middle East.

Glad we cleared that up sooner than later.

Heck, and here I was looking forward to pictures from his Birthright tour of Israel...

re: #9 bosforus

Anyone here know how to fake an Israeli birth certificate?

Check with Orly Taitz.

And for their next act (the nirthers, that is) Francisco Franco will return from the dead.

He's not Jewish, but he is a schmuck.

It appears that calling someone Jewish in Iran is an insult, and a way to spread dirt on a political opponent.
One of the spinoffs linked here

The negative connotation of claiming that someone Muslim in Iran is Jewish or has Jewish roots brings me to my final analysis of the true origins of this entire Ahmadinejad-Jewish story. Iran experts here in L.A. I recently interviewed said that even before Ahmadinejad, various “reformist” leaders during the “open era” of the past Iranian President Mohammad Khatami during the 1990s and early 2000s were using “Jewishness” as a verbal assault against other rival officials they hated or against other Iranian officials who presumably had Jewish blood. Frank Nikbakht, an L.A.-based Iranian Jewish activist and director of the Committee for Minority Rights in Iran, said the accusations Iranian officials make of each other being Jewish is nothing new for Iran’s current regime. “I remember in early 2000 when members of Khatami’s reformist party in Iran accused one of their hardliner rivals, a man named Habibollah Ashkaroladi Mosalman, of having Jewish roots,” said Nikbakht in a telephone interview today. “What we are seeing today with this story of Ahmadinejad being supposedly Jewish is the same smear tactics the reformists have used in the past against their hardliner opponents”. It seems as if even the supposed “reformists” in Iran, who Obama administration officials and other Western leaders have long hail as being supposedly “open-minded”, are also now showing their true anti-Semitic tendencies by vilifying Ahmadinejad with disgusting anti-Semitic rhetoric! Why else would Ahmadinejad be such an evil and horrible dictator trying to take over the world and kill people? He must no doubt be a Jew. Sounds like garbage you might read in the classic anti-Semitic book the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”! (By the way, the Persian language copies of the Protocols have long been best sellers in Iran with more than 400 pages added to the original Russian version published in the 1880s).

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

Good, now we can get back to treating him for what he is, a little monster capable of causing a whole lot of death and destruction in the Middle East.

Glad we cleared that up sooner than later.

That's enough, I'd imagine. Why do they need to suggest the idiot's Jewish?

re: #17 davinvalkri

That's enough, I'd imagine. Why do they need to suggest the idiot's Jewish?

It appears the "reformist" are trying to smear him.
See my #16 Kosh's Shadow

re: #17 davinvalkri

Dunno. Poster child for self-loathing?

re: #17 davinvalkri

That's enough, I'd imagine. Why do they need to suggest the idiot's Jewish?

Probably a sophomoric idea that such an accusation will undercut his status, political power, et cetera.

What puzzles me is why the right would even want to believe such a silly story. Seriously, which of their crazy ends does believing that clap-trap further?

Unless they hope that the dinner jacket gets killed by his own Jihadis...

Ahhh.

Never mind. I answered my own question.

To be fair, since the diner jacket funds so much terrorism anyway, I would not mind it at all if he had a "work accident." But seriously you would have to be daft to think that was true.

re: #20 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Probably a sophomoric idea that such an accusation will undercut his status, political power, et cetera.

... and "sophomoric" was a compliment to whoever came up with this crap

re: #18 Kosh's Shadow

It appears the "reformist" are trying to smear him.

I'm sure he'd be welcome at any reform synagogue. Well, maybe not the gay ones.

re: #22 pre-Boomer Marine brat

... and "sophomoric" was a compliment to whoever came up with this crap

Crap ... PIMF ... sophomoric flattery

re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote

What puzzles me is why the right would even want to believe such a silly story. Seriously, which of their crazy ends does believing that clap-trap further?

Unless they hope that the dinner jacket gets killed by his own Jihadis...

Ahhh.

Never mind. I answered my own question.

To be fair, since the diner jacket funds so much terrorism anyway, I would not mind it at all if he had a "work accident." But seriously you would have to be daft to think that was true.

And worst of all, it really is an insult to Jews period, end of story. Using the possibility of someone having a Jewish racial heritage as something indicative as being "less than" or what ever.

Sick.

re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote

To be fair, since the diner jacket funds so much terrorism anyway, I would not mind it at all if he had a "work accident." But seriously you would have to be daft to think that was true.

An Iranian "work accident" is not something I hope will happen.

re: #23 Alouette

re: #23 Alouette

I'm sure he'd be welcome at any reform synagogue. Well, maybe not the gay ones.

That is a little too much sinat chinam. Reform Jews are not so obtuse. You have to be Noam Chomsky level to think the dinner jacket is OK.

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

And worst of all, it really is an insult to Jews period, end of story. Using the possibility of someone having a Jewish racial heritage as something indicative as being "less than" or what ever.

Sick.

Poles used it to smear Lek Wallenca back in the 80's.

re: #16 Kosh's Shadow

It appears that calling someone Jewish in Iran is an insult, and a way to spread dirt on a political opponent.
One of the spinoffs linked here

It would be funny if it wasn't so sick and depraved.

As you know (I know you do heh), Iranian Jewry is one of the oldest in the diaspora, beginning from the first temple period. Their lives were intertwined with the Babylon exiles (neighbors) as well.

More recent history, the Jews fared pretty well as Iran was trying to "westernize" but in the larger scheme, that didn't last long. There is a small community left, maybe 25-30,000 last I heard. I wish they would leave to Israel, to anywhere.

re: #26 Alouette

An Iranian "work accident" is not something I hope will happen.

might include a mushroom cloud.

re: #1 bosforus

It figures, Ahmadingbat is a dirty Jooo! It all makes sense now...

///

re: #26 Alouette

An Iranian "work accident" is not something I hope will happen.

Actually, from a tactical standpoint, it is the best thing that could happen - particularly if we are talking the underground facilities. It would destroy and or contaminate the facility and kill off a large amount of their technical workers.

re: #27 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #23 Alouette

That is a little too much sinat chinam. Reform Jews are not so obtuse. You have to be Noam Chomsky level to think the dinner jacket is OK.

Neturei Karta are not Reform Jews, and they mouth kissed dinnerjacket.

re: #7 lawhawk

Ahmadinejad is not a self-hating Jew. He's not Jewish. He's an Islamist through and through, by word and deed.

He just wants to see Israel wiped off the map. Everything else is window dressing. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly tried to claim lineage with Mohammad, and he's hoping to bring about the coming of the Hidden Imam.

Frankly, it reeks of anti-Semitism to spread the nonsense that Ahmadinejad is Jewish - as though that somehow explains or mitigates his statements and positions vis a vis the US.

It is absolutely anti-Semitism to say he's a Jew or his family whatever. Because if he's Jewish that should give him credibility?

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

And worst of all, it really is an insult to Jews period, end of story. Using the possibility of someone having a Jewish racial heritage as something indicative as being "less than" or what ever.

Sick.

Same as been happening for thousands of years in other parts of the world. Scapegoat.

re: #30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

might include a mushroom cloud.

Nah, nukes don't work that way. They are actually very delicate machines and they don't easily go off "to full effect." There is still a great deal of engineering involved.

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, from a tactical standpoint, it is the best thing that could happen - particularly if we are talking the underground facilities. It would destroy and or contaminate the facility and kill off a large amount of their technical workers.

A lot of their tech workers could be North Koreans.

I thought the story spread through the whole blogosphere.

re: #33 Alouette

Neturei Karta are not Reform Jews, and they mouth kissed dinnerjacket.

Naturei Carta are under a well earned ban of cherem for which I doubt there is sufficient tsuva to lift. That is a whole other case.

Thank heavens.

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, from a tactical standpoint, it is the best thing that could happen - particularly if we are talking the underground facilities. It would destroy and or contaminate the facility and kill off a large amount of their technical workers.

Yes. An bomb isn't likely to go off by accident, but if a centrifuge came off its bearings and went through the facility, it would take out the entire room it was in, and contaminate it to the point they'd just have to seal that room off and build another. If it took out a door and flooded the facility with UF6, they'd be better off building a new facility than trying to clean that one.
And they'd have to spend a long time figuring out what went wrong with the centrifuge before making new ones.
A little Mos-sand in the bearings?

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

Yes. An bomb isn't likely to go off by accident, but if a centrifuge came off its bearings and went through the facility, it would take out the entire room it was in, and contaminate it to the point they'd just have to seal that room off and build another. If it took out a door and flooded the facility with UF6, they'd be better off building a new facility than trying to clean that one.
And they'd have to spend a long time figuring out what went wrong with the centrifuge before making new ones.
A little Mos-sand in the bearings?

Exactly. And it would hit the other super fast spinning centrifuges on the way. It would be a nice little chain reaction.

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

Nah, nukes don't work that way. They are actually very delicate machines and they don't easily go off "to full effect." There is still a great deal of engineering involved.

What a fuckin' buzz-kill you are...
/

Damn! And I already sent him a nice bottle of Manischewitz!

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

Yes. An bomb isn't likely to go off by accident, but if a centrifuge came off its bearings and went through the facility, it would take out the entire room it was in, and contaminate it to the point they'd just have to seal that room off and build another. If it took out a door and flooded the facility with UF6, they'd be better off building a new facility than trying to clean that one.
And they'd have to spend a long time figuring out what went wrong with the centrifuge before making new ones.
A little Mos-sand in the bearings?

Sounds like a good idea.

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What a fuckin' buzz-kill you are...
/

LOL... I remember one of my kids berating me for giving the "boring physics answer" to some question that came from a movie.

re: #44 SixDegrees

Manischewitz

That got a "bull" on the label?

Oh. That's Schlitz.

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, from a tactical standpoint, it is the best thing that could happen - particularly if we are talking the underground facilities. It would destroy and or contaminate the facility and kill off a large amount of their technical workers.

Ok, I'm not really comfortable with rallying for the death of Iranian workers.

I think we can discuss this subject without wishing death or violence on people.

We don't do it in other threads, and people have been banned for advocation violence.

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

There were reports that early IR1 centrifuges disintegrated as they ramped up to full speed because they were unbalanced. In fact, the report speculated that the workers assembling the centrifuges allowed the oils from their hands get on to the centrifuges, creating the unbalanced situation.

Work accidents would seriously hamper their ability to process the uranium, but they've got a head start and time is on their side since they're busy furiously spinning the reactors and everyone is now focused on the Qom facility while it's believed that Iran has more than a dozen other facilities where they're working on nuclear technologies and weapons.

re: #47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That got a "bull" on the label?

Oh. That's Schlitz.

Do you know why nudists don't drink beer at the beach?

They don't want to get sand in their Schlitz.

re: #33 Alouette

Neturei Karta are not Reform Jews, and they mouth kissed dinnerjacket.

With tongue! /

Ahmadinejad Jewish? Not.

Kinda too bad!

If it were true, the Mad Mullahs would be so mad they'd be wearing STEAM Turbans!!!

//

re: #51 Creeping Eruption

With tongue! /

in bed

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Sounds like a good idea.

It's a fabulous idea. Of course you don't need to worry about sand. Too subtle really. just setting off a small explosive, or series of them, while the centrifuges were running and you are done. However, you also need to take out the heavy water facility. We don't want them getting plutonium from unenriched uranium either.

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

I've sold centrifuges and the good ones have these massive stainless steel tubs where the spinning takes place. One ultra-high speed centrifuge I heard about (not one of the ones we sold, thank God) had a catastrophic failure of the rotor while it was spinning and despite the tremendous force with which it came apart the stainless steel tub held and contained the material. An accident where a centrifuge takes anything out other than itself is very unlikely, if it's a good one.

off topic
Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn live testifying in Canadian congress against the Canadian Human Rights Commission

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/Parlvu/ContentEntityDetailView.aspx?ContentEntityId=5071

re: #51 Creeping Eruption

With tongue! /

You made me throw up in my mouth.

re: #38 Pianobuff

It was not spread exclusively through the ' right wing blogosphere'. Check Google, and you will find that the disinformation was apparently equal opportunity, in sources as varied as The Volokh Conspiracy, The Week magazine, Huffpo, and Gawker. Not exactly your right wing rags...

re: #46 LudwigVanQuixote

"You even make your Grandma sick!"...

-Alice Cooper

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I'm not really comfortable with rallying for the death of Iranian workers.

I think we can discuss this subject without wishing death or violence on people.

We don't do it in other threads, and people have been banned for advocation violence.

I am comfortable with it. The best way to stop Iran's programs from the outside is to eliminate the people who man it. If killing the workers is what it takes to stop the program, then I support that option. It will also teach others the costs of working for our enemies.

re: #57 Alouette

You made me throw up in my mouth.

NOTE TO SELF

do NOT put my tongue in Alouettes mouth!

/just sayin!

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I'm not really comfortable with rallying for the death of Iranian workers.

I think we can discuss this subject without wishing death or violence on people.

We don't do it in other threads, and people have been banned for advocation violence.

Really? If you are helping Iran build an atomic weapon, you are a more dangerous enemy than a soldier or a hezzballah terrorist.

As a physicist, I strongly believe that with knowledge comes responsibility.

If you know what nukes are and you know who you are building them for, you have crossed the line into legitimate target. It is also a good target because you stop the program by killing fewer people.

I would much rather kill their top techs and scientists and have them have to train a new generation, than have to bomb their cities and kill all their army to do the same job.

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

It's a fabulous idea. Of course you don't need to worry about sand. Too subtle really. just setting off a small explosive, or series of them, while the centrifuges were running and you are done. However, you also need to take out the heavy water facility. We don't want them getting plutonium from unenriched uranium either.

re: #55 Land Shark

I've sold centrifuges and the good ones have these massive stainless steel tubs where the spinning takes place. One ultra-high speed centrifuge I heard about (not one of the ones we sold, thank God) had a catastrophic failure of the rotor while it was spinning and despite the tremendous force with which it came apart the stainless steel tub held and contained the material. An accident where a centrifuge takes anything out other than itself is very unlikely, if it's a good one.

This is why the subtlest attack would have to be on the logistics for the equipment. Screw up the tolerances on the parts, and/or screw up QA at the supplier side, and things are already well on their way to showing up as a special on the Discovery Channel in a few years' time.

I first saw the story on Althouse.

re: #61 sattv4u2

NOTE TO SELF

do NOT put my tongue in Alouettes mouth!

in bed

OT

"Townhall" just sent me an E-mail message from Ron Paul:

Dear Friend of Liberty,

I hope you join me in my firm conviction that now is the time to fight back against the out of control Federal Reserve and continued Wall Street plundering of our tax dollars.

The threat isn’t hard to see -- just look all around us. Our constitutional principles and freedoms are being assaulted at every turn. More bailouts, trillion dollar “stimulus” plans, huge new debt burdens for our children, simply printing money to cover our failed policies -- I could go on and on. You and I both know that President Obama is going to keep going and going unless someone puts a stop to the madness.

But the good news is there is a way to fight back. And that fight starts today -- by “Auditing the Fed” and showing the American people just how the Fed has abused its power, debauched the dollar, and helped strangle our economy.

Because I know you are a friend in Liberty, I wanted you to be among the first people contacted by Campaign for Liberty for the vital fight against the out of control Federal Reserve.

Please read the enclosed letter from my friend and Campaign for Liberty’s President, John Tate. John isn’t just a friend of mine. He’s also a patriot with years of experience getting things done in politics. Now he’s agreed to take up the fight in a way I cannot -- by leading the fight for Liberty on the outside, while I do battle in the halls of Congress.

I trust you’ll find this battle to expose the out of control Fed worth your support.

For Liberty,

Congressman Ron Paul

re: #66 Ojoe

Wow, my email filters anything with the words Ron Paul and tosses it into junk...

re: #57 Alouette

You made me throw up in my mouth.

Apologies. NK and dinnerjacket do the same for me, so I thought I would just join them in a loving embrace.

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Take out the leadership of the missile program and/or impair their communications, and you've done almost the same thing. You only need to get them doubting their superiors, or get their superiors doubting their underlings, to introduce pure chaos into their systems.

We gotta face this threat asymmetrically. Don't nuke the facilities, disable their power supplies, disrupt their support systems, screw around with personnel and communications.

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

I am comfortable with it. The best way to stop Iran's programs from the outside is to eliminate the people who man it. If killing the workers is what it takes to stop the program, then I support that option. It will also teach others the costs of working for our enemies.

And we stop the program, even this way, or a lot of people - innocent people who aren't working on Iran's nuclear program - get killed; quite possibly nuked. And I am including most Iranians in the group of innocents.

re: #56 friarstale

off topic
Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn live testifying in Canadian congress against the Canadian Human Rights Commission

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/Parlvu/ContentEntityDetai lView.aspx?ContentEntityId=5071

Thank you for that. I'll make sure to check it out later.

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig, I am simply pointing out Charles' rule, a rule that he has upheld many, many times. I have seen long time Lizards get deleted and/or banned for making and repeating remarks about violence.

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

I was just making a suggestion. If it's alright with everyone and Charles doesn't care, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Carry on.

re: #63 Guanxi88

This is why the subtlest attack would have to be on the logistics for the equipment. Screw up the tolerances on the parts, and/or screw up QA at the supplier side, and things are already well on their way to showing up as a special on the Discovery Channel in a few years' time.

As I remember, there was a pretty large WWII operation underneath Grand Central Station. IIRC, it was part of the Manhattan Project. The Germans attempted (but failed) to sabotage the facility. They didn't try to blow it up, they just wanted to figure out how to get a few grains of sand into the workings of the delicate machinery.

re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote

Yep I am for finding them and putting some sort of Smart bombs down however these places breathe. I want it to happen during peak hours so we take out as much of their technical crew as possible.

Agreed. If we take out those people, their program is kaput, and anyone tempted to work for Iran will have had alesson in why that's not a good idea.

re: #74 Pianobuff

As I remember, there was a pretty large WWII operation underneath Grand Central Station. IIRC, it was part of the Manhattan Project. The Germans attempted (but failed) to sabotage the facility. They didn't try to blow it up, they just wanted to figure out how to get a few grains of sand into the workings of the delicate machinery.

That's all it would take, too. I recall Whittaker Chambers discussing the near-discovery of a cadre of communist agents at some facility or other producing propellers or engine parts for the Army Air Corps. The guys were throwing spitballs or wadded up foil into the crucibles right before casting the raw parts.

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig, I am simply pointing out Charles' rule, a rule that he has upheld many, many times. I have seen long time Lizards get deleted and/or banned for making and repeating remarks about violence.

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

I was just making a suggestion. If it's alright with everyone and Charles doesn't care, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Carry on.

I think something like "Nuke Iran now" would be a problem, but proposing attacks on their nuclear facilities would be allowed. And I'm trying to come up with a way of avoiding nuking Iran. Unfortunately, the diplomats are making that harder and harder.
What irony - in their quest for peace, they'll set up conditions where a nuclear war is inevitable.

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. If we take out those people, their program is kaput, and anyone tempted to work for Iran will have had alesson in why that's not a good idea.

might as well take out the Red Guard facilities on our way through...maybe poke a few holes in their refinery and dock systems too

re: #76 Guanxi88

That's all it would take, too. I recall Whittaker Chambers discussing the near-discovery of a cadre of communist agents at some facility or other producing propellers or engine parts for the Army Air Corps. The guys were throwing spitballs or wadded up foil into the crucibles right before casting the raw parts.

And Schindler, in cruder ways, had the same idea.

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

Surely there is a distinction made between advocating real time violence against a person or group and the abstract discussion of going to war or a national attack on a threat to national security.

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

Ludwig, I am simply pointing out Charles' rule, a rule that he has upheld many, many times. I have seen long time Lizards get deleted and/or banned for making and repeating remarks about violence.

"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."

I was just making a suggestion. If it's alright with everyone and Charles doesn't care, then I apologize for bringing it up.

Carry on.

I hear your point. I am not advocating violence in a personal manner against a group of innocent people. I am talking about a military strategy that will likely cost fewer lives than other options.

Advocating military action against the Iranian nuclear program is certainly "advocating violence" in the most general sense. I am certain that many here think that is a good idea.

No one is talking about slaughtering innocent people or inciting a riot.

re: #76 Guanxi88

That's all it would take, too. I recall Whittaker Chambers discussing the near-discovery of a cadre of communist agents at some facility or other producing propellers or engine parts for the Army Air Corps. The guys were throwing spitballs or wadded up foil into the crucibles right before casting the raw parts.

The slave labor building German equipment apparently did engage in some sabotage, like not properly tightening bolts on tank components.
One good reason not to rely on slave labor, beyond the moral problems.

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. If we take out those people, their program is kaput, and anyone tempted to work for Iran will have had alesson in why that's not a good idea.

So you win with the fewest lives lost. That is my thinking.

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Really? If you are helping Iran build an atomic weapon, you are a more dangerous enemy than a soldier or a hezzballah terrorist

Slippery slope, imo

I pray daily that Iran does NOt finalize their nuke weapon ambitions
I'm very torn though
I'm wondering what "we" would say if someone were to have targeted physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer et al while they were working on the Manhatten Project!

re: #77 Kosh's Shadow

I think something like "Nuke Iran now" would be a problem, but proposing attacks on their nuclear facilities would be allowed. And I'm trying to come up with a way of avoiding nuking Iran. Unfortunately, the diplomats are making that harder and harder.
What irony - in their quest for peace, they'll set up conditions where a nuclear war is inevitable.

I'm not in agreement with the tone and tenor of this discussion, I've seen a lot of long time Lizards go down for the same sort of talk.

so I'll just bow out for now.

Charles; I have to give you credit, again, for having a great sense of smell.

I commented on this earlier, to the effect that the original allegations sounded so easy to verify. Of course if they had been verifiable one can be sure that someone in Iran would have done so long ago. That was the smelly part.

Any large-scale project like this has innumerable vulnerabilities; the iranians would have to get every single part exactly right every single time, whereas a clever saboteur would only have to get lucky once. Sabotage the machine shops producing the parts for the centrifuges; hell, screw up the micrometers used in the machine shops, and you could disable the whole thing.

re: #84 sattv4u2

Really? If you are helping Iran build an atomic weapon, you are a more dangerous enemy than a soldier or a hezzballah terrorist

Slippery slope, imo

I pray daily that Iran does NOt finalize their nuke weapon ambitions
I'm very torn though
I'm wondering what "we" would say if someone were to have targeted physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer et al while they were working on the Manhatten Project!

We would have said that he was a legitimate target, just like we seriously targeted Heisenberg during the war.

re: #84 sattv4u2

Really? If you are helping Iran build an atomic weapon, you are a more dangerous enemy than a soldier or a hezzballah terrorist

Slippery slope, imo

I pray daily that Iran does NOt finalize their nuke weapon ambitions
I'm very torn though
I'm wondering what "we" would say if someone were to have targeted physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer et al while they were working on the Manhatten Project!

it's dog eat dog...humans have only advanced in method, not principle

.re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote
So I guess linking Vince Vance and the Valiants' parody of the Beach Boys' Barbara Ann is out of the question from now on...sigh...
///

re: #82 Kosh's Shadow

The slave labor building German equipment apparently did engage in some sabotage, like not properly tightening bolts on tank components.
One good reason not to rely on slave labor, beyond the moral problems.

Got a brno made KAR rifle (WWII German production) in my collection. The sights are awful, like most every one made there.

Egyptian Cleric to Ban Full Veils
The Egyptian newspaper al-Masri al-Yom quoted him expressing surprise at the girl's attire and telling her it was merely a tradition, with no connection to religion or the Koran.

Interesting

re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote

We would have said that he was a legitimate target, just like we seriously targeted Heisenberg during the war.

We're at war with Iran? When did the invasion start?

re: #92 Conservative Moonbat

That's really going to p--s off the Taliban.

re: #90 tradewind

.
So I guess linking Vince Vance and the Valiants' parody of the Beach Boys' Barbara Ann is out of the question from now on...sigh...
///

Pie atollah!

re: #92 Conservative Moonbat

Well, bless his frickin' heart!

re: #95 albusteve

Pie atollah!

3.14159265 ???

re: #66 Ojoe

From that email:

Please read the enclosed letter from my friend and Campaign for Liberty’s President, John Tate. John isn’t just a friend of mine. He’s also a patriot with years of experience getting things done in politics. Now he’s agreed to take up the fight in a way I cannot -- by leading the fight for Liberty on the outside, while I do battle in the halls of Congress.

From RonPauldotcom:

This afternoon, Ron Paul joined Peter Schiff, Lew Rockwell, Tracy Byrnes, John Tate and John Stossel on Judge Andrew Napolitano’s online show “Freedom Watch” in a refreshing discussion about the latest economic and political developments.

re: #93 sattv4u2

We're at war with Iran? When did the invasion start?

This one is curious.. I had thought you were opposed to letting Iran have atomic weapons. Since it is utterly clear to everyone that they will get one unless stopped by force, why are you taking this side of the argument?

My argument is very simply that if you have to use force to it so you win by killing as few people as you need to. Just blowing up the facilities does not win. Getting the facilities and those trained to run them does win and we don't have to kill innocent civilians to do it.

re: #92 Conservative Moonbat

You tell that to them. They are only misunderstanders of Islam, don't you know?

re: #91 Guanxi88

Got a brno made KAR rifle (WWII German production) in my collection. The sights are awful, like most every one made there.

What's in your collection? I wouldn't call myself a collector, but I do have a 1875 Rolling Block Remington, 8x58R Danish Krag ammo (custom ordered).

re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear your point. I am not advocating violence in a personal manner against a group of innocent people. I am talking about a military strategy that will likely cost fewer lives than other options.

Advocating military action against the Iranian nuclear program is certainly "advocating violence" in the most general sense. I am certain that many here think that is a good idea.

No one is talking about slaughtering innocent people or inciting a riot.

Agreed. What we are talking about is a matter where people will almost certainly be killed. The question is "Which people and how many of them?" Ludwig's option offered a way to limit the casualties to the guilty as much as possible. Some innocent will die but that will happen in any military action we take. I hate the fact the innocents will die, but it is Ahmandinejad and the mullahs who bear the blame not us. There is no perfect solution and to look for one only makes things worse. I'm going to get lunch, but this is the quote I keep seeing:

"War is cruelty and you cannot refine it." -General William Tecumseh Sherman, 1864

re: #94 tradewind

That's really going to p--s off the Taliban.

and that alone is enough to make it a good thing

re: #81 LudwigVanQuixote

How is it possible to take out the nukes and/or facilities in Iran without also having collateral damage?
It would be wonderful, but it doesn't seem like an option. It would have been nice if we could have evacuated the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki too before the atomic bomb was dropped, but not an option.
What would be cool is if some sort of an EMP would work to destroy the technology without loss of life.

Not a Jew?
Darn, just when I stopped worrying about Iran's nukes!

re: #99 LudwigVanQuixote

This one is curious.. I had thought you were opposed to letting Iran have atomic weapons. Since it is utterly clear to everyone that they will get one unless stopped by force, why are you taking this side of the argument?

My argument is very simply that if you have to use force to it so you win by killing as few people as you need to. Just blowing up the facilities does not win. Getting the facilities and those trained to run them does win and we don't have to kill innocent civilians to do it.

I lied, I can't stay out of this.

Then you think we should get on with it an bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

Sine Dinnerjacker is now considered as a "filthy jew", why not make a circumcision on him?

re: #56 friarstale

off topic
Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn live testifying in Canadian congress against the Canadian Human Rights Commission

I'm watching it now on live video. Do you know what is the background to this? I know that Levant already was "interviewed" a couple of years ago by Shirley Somethingorother and he videoed the whole thing. What's happening now? Now Steyn is up.

Ahmadinejad was born in Kenya. I've got the birth certificate here someplace... let me see, where did I put it ...

re: #76 Guanxi88

By the same token, the Nazi slave laborers at Dora and Peenemünde did something similar to the missiles and undermined the Nazi effort.

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

I kinda think so.

re: #99 LudwigVanQuixote

This one is curious.. I had thought you were opposed to letting Iran have atomic weapons. Since it is utterly clear to everyone that they will get one unless stopped by force, why are you taking this side of the argument?

My argument is very simply that if you have to use force to it so you win by killing as few people as you need to. Just blowing up the facilities does not win. Getting the facilities and those trained to run them does win and we don't have to kill innocent civilians to do it.

Same "argument" that Walter was making. It's been a long standing policy to not advocate violence and the death of non-legit combatants.If that has changed I'm sorry, I missed it, If that has not changed sorry if you're not getting it.

As I stated above, I pray DAILY that Iran does NOT get a nuke weapon(s) of any degree

re: #109 HelloDare

ROFLMAO

re: #104 tradewind

How is it possible to take out the nukes and/or facilities in Iran without also having collateral damage?
It would be wonderful, but it doesn't seem like an option. It would have been nice if we could have evacuated the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki too before the atomic bomb was dropped, but not an option.
What would be cool is if some sort of an EMP would work to destroy the technology without loss of life.

There will be collateral damage in any large scale military action. That is unavoidable.

I however do not count the tech staff and scientists as collateral damage. Rather I see them as the primary target. Just destroying the equipment will mean things get rebuilt. Getting the equipment and the techies at the same time, well that is a different matter. That sets them back a long way.

we could bomb the nuke facilities with Penthouse magazines, their pages impregnated with sleep crystals, then just walk in and pull the plug...nobody gets hurt

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

I lied, I can't stay out of this.

Then you think we should get on with it an bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

I think we should never ever have gone into Iraq and hit Iran's nuclear facilities five years ago.

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

I lied, I can't stay out of this.

Then you think we should get on with it an bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

I don't believe the U.S. will do anything, but I do believe Israel will wrap up ALL the loose ends when they strike.

Now OT - but how the new wannabe german foreign minister wants to be welcomed in Teheran?

re: #101 Naso Tang

What's in your collection? I wouldn't call myself a collector, but I do have a 1875 Rolling Block Remington, 8x58R Danish Krag ammo (custom ordered).

SMLE, Mark IV, no.2

Nagant Revolver, Tula Arsenal rehab (1941)

KAR 98K, BRNO make, with Israeli over-stamp

Mosin-Nagant 1891/30, Tula Arsenal Rebuild

re: #116 LudwigVanQuixote

I think we should never ever have gone into Iraq and hit Iran's nuclear facilities five years ago.

Thank you for the history lesson, but we both know that didn't happen. Now, I will ask the question again. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

Do you think we should get on with it and bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

Frankly, I do not know how war with Iran will be avoided.

Now, it might not be us. But someone is gonna go in there and take that shit out.

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for the history lesson, but we both know that didn't happen. Now, I will ask the question again. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

Do you think we should get on with it and bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

yes absolutely. But done in a smart manner that actually ends things.

re: #115 albusteve

Nice.

re: #117 jdog29

I don't believe the U.S. will do anything, but I do believe Israel will wrap up ALL the loose ends when they strike.

Maybe we should try all that Gandhi stuff with Iran?

re: #109 HelloDare

Ahmadinejad was born in Kenya. I've got the birth certificate here someplace... let me see, where did I put it ...

I will gladly send you a copy. But first I will need your bank account number as a show of good faith on your part.

re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote

yes absolutely. But done in a smart manner that actually ends things.

Thanks.

re: #115 albusteve

Jut bomb them with Penthouse/Playboy magazines, Hustler videos and Girls'Gone Wild series and Iran will surrender in a week

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for the history lesson, but we both know that didn't happen. Now, I will ask the question again. If you don't want to answer, just say so.

Do you think we should get on with it and bomb the enrichment facilities and put them out of commission as soon as possible?

I'd try sabotage first, as it can cast doubt on their equipment and designs, and has much lower collateral damage.
But it is harder to carry out.
But if it comes down to letting Iran get nukes or bombing, I go with bombing; there will be far fewer casualties, especially on my side, but on the Iranian side as well.
(If Israel is nuked, they would have to respond in kind to maintain any kind of deterrence.)

re: #125 HelloDare

You are from Nigeria? Or just learned some things with them?

There is one sure way to cripple the Iranian war machine without the loss of any American or Israeli lives. It came to me during Family Guy the other night. Simply unblock all internet access in Iran and make all men aware of internet porn. Follow this with a massive airdrop of cheap yet rugged netbook computers. This should completely disable Iran for many months; furthermore, any Iranian government attempt to disable access to the porn sites will lead to revolution.

Perfect, no?

It is worth noting that many Arab Muslims are descended from Jews who were converted (forcibly or otherwise) to Islam during the Muslim conquest of Arabia and the Levant. Of course they would not like to admit this.

re: #107 marsl

Sine Dinnerjacker is now considered as a "filthy jew", why not make a circumcision on him?

Too late.

re: #130 imp_62

Yes... but the iranians girls and women would pay the ultimate price...

Iran. Sorta.

re: #132 John Neverbend

Too late.

Why do you think they call him "Shorty".

re: #133 marsl

Yes... but the iranians girls and women would pay the ultimate price...

Quite to the contrary. I am sure. With the men distracted, women could take control of vital social and governmental functions. Plus, if they take control of all the munchies, there will be decades of peace in the M.E.

re: #129 marsl

You are from Nigeria? Or just learned some things with them?

Nigerian can't be trusted. I am the past internal minister of external affairs in Kenya.

re: #128 Kosh's Shadow

I'd try sabotage first, as it can cast doubt on their equipment and designs, and has much lower collateral damage.
But it is harder to carry out.
But if it comes down to letting Iran get nukes or bombing, I go with bombing; there will be far fewer casualties, especially on my side, but on the Iranian side as well.
(If Israel is nuked, they would have to respond in kind to maintain any kind of deterrence.)

Other areas to direct sabotage efforts -

- missile construction, storage, and fueling facilities;
- military communications networks
- electric power networks

There are enough parts to the system that finding one or two to go after shouldn't be that hard. I'd hate to think that these efforts aren't under way already.

re: #135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why do you think they call him "Shorty".

Punchlines to mohel jokes:

1. Leave your tips in the jar.
2. Wallet? tickle it and it becomes a suitcase!
3. So what should I put in the window?

re: #137 HelloDare

Nigerian can't be trusted. I am the past internal minister of external affairs in Kenya.

I can vouch for that, dear friend. I was Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief.

re: #140 Guanxi88

I can vouch for that, dear friend. I was Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief.

Mogumbo, is that you?

re: #138 Guanxi88

Other areas to direct sabotage efforts -

- missile construction, storage, and fueling facilities;
- military communications networks
- electric power networks

There are enough parts to the system that finding one or two to go after shouldn't be that hard. I'd hate to think that these efforts aren't under way already.

waste of time and effort...the nukes are not primarily for missile delivery, more likely a cargo container

re: #136 imp_62

Sorry, but that don't work in developed nations, why should work in Iran? In America and Europe exists all free porn that a men can handle... and women don't rule.

re: #139 LudwigVanQuixote

Crap! I've heard all three!

re: #142 albusteve

waste of time and effort...the nukes are not primarily for missile delivery, more likely a cargo container

Fine, so we don't go for the missiles (but why not?). Plenty of other places to hit.

Don't forget, the most vulnerable phase for the project is always assembly.

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I'm not really comfortable with rallying for the death of Iranian workers.

I think we can discuss this subject without wishing death or violence on people.

We don't do it in other threads, and people have been banned for advocation violence.

I'm glad you said something, because I'm more than a little uncomfortable with quotes such as this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #141 HelloDare

I have a beautiful bridge to sell to each one of you...

re: #144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Crap! I've heard all three!

So has everyone! That's why I just wrote the punch lines.

re: #146 Liberal Classic

I'm glad you said something, because I'm more than a little uncomfortable with quotes such as this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Then you Walter and I have commonality!

Thats a good thing, no?

re: #141 HelloDare

Mogumbo, is that you?

Ssshhh!

re: #145 Guanxi88

Fine, so we don't go for the missiles (but why not?). Plenty of other places to hit.

Don't forget, the most vulnerable phase for the project is always assembly.

once again...I would simply strike Iran anywhere and everywhere a target exists...they are at war with the US and it's time we took them seriously...Iran has conspired to kill Americans, did, and will again if they get the chance

re: #146 Liberal Classic

I'm glad you said something, because I'm more than a little uncomfortable with quotes such as this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

First off, you don't have to piggyback on my comment if there is something you don't like about another Lizards posting. If you have a problem with _RememberTonyC comment, I suggest...

1) You report it.
2) You make a comment directly to _RememberTonyC

But please do not leap-frog on my comment to dump on another Lizard. You have no idea if I do or do not have a problem with _RememberTonyC comment.

Got it?

re: #141 HelloDare

Mogumbo, is that you?

I've had saugage Gumbo! It was so good I had MO Gumbo!

re: #141 HelloDare

Mogumbo, is that you?

On "House" tonight, James Earl Jones is playing an African Dictator. They have to figure out what's wrong... but deal with the idea of saving a blood-thirsty dictator. Nice.

re: #128 Kosh's Shadow

If Israel is nuked, there might not be much left of Israel to defend via deterrence. Mind you that 80% of the population of Israel is on the Tel Aviv to Jerusalem corridor and coastal plain. Aim any kind of missile with a CEP of a few miles, and you're going to wipe out the heart of Israel. It's in Israel's best interests to keep that from ever happening.

re: #149 sattv4u2

Then you Walter and I have commonality!

Thats a good thing, no?

NO, see my re: #152 Walter L. Newton

I don't like people riding on my comments to dig at another Lizard.

If per impossibile it had turned out that Ahmadinejad really did have Jewish origins, it wouldn't have changed my opinion of him in the slightest.

re: #151 albusteve

once again...I would simply strike Iran anywhere and everywhere a target exists...they are at war with the US and it's time we took them seriously...Iran has conspired to kill Americans, did, and will again if they get the chance

we'd just be doing it for the oil. ///

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

NO, see my re: #152 Walter L. Newton

I don't like people riding on my comments to dig at another Lizard.

I know. I was looking to elicit a response though, to see where it led!

re: #146 Liberal Classic

I'm glad you said something, because I'm more than a little uncomfortable with quotes such as this one:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

So would you rather that Iran got a nuclear weapon? They seem rather clear about killing al the Jews with one. They certainly would export more terrorism as a result even if they did not start a nuke fight with Israel. They would also wreak havoc on the world oil market and set off a nuclear arms race between Sunni and Shia. I assure you that one does end in a nuke fight.

So really, since they will not just play nice, why does letting them have one, which will surely cost many more lives than destroying the facilities, end up as a more moral option to you?

What differentiates moderates from liberals is lack of naivete.

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, not much different than one of their prior episodes where they had to save a mass murderer or a child rapist who was going to get the Chair (and yes, I know, this is supposed to take place in NJ where they haven't carried out the death penalty in decades).

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

Got it?

Well, excuse me.

BRAKING NEWS:

The Discovery Institute found Ardipithecus ramidus's birth certificate. It proves that Ardi is in no way related to humans.

re: #155 lawhawk

If Israel is nuked, there might not be much left of Israel to defend via deterrence. Mind you that 80% of the population of Israel is on the Tel Aviv to Jerusalem corridor and coastal plain. Aim any kind of missile with a CEP of a few miles, and you're going to wipe out the heart of Israel. It's in Israel's best interests to keep that from ever happening.

Yes, it is. But they would still have to retaliate.

re: #162 Liberal Classic

Well, excuse me.

That's fine, don't do it again :)

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On "House" tonight, James Earl Jones is playing an African Dictator. They have to figure out what's wrong... but deal with the idea of saving a blood-thirsty dictator. Nice.

"your Excellency, I think it's just a cold. It'll pass in a few days without any trouble at all."

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

You do So well right up to the last sentence

Then ,, not so much!

Why must many of your posts contain a "shot"?

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There was the rumor that Hitler was also Jewish.

...not that there's anything wrong with that

re: #167 sattv4u2

You do So well right up to the last sentence

Then ,, not so much!

Why must many of your posts contain a "shot"?

you make a good point. I actually agree. However, it is blisteringly naive to assume that Iran with a nuke is somehow gonna be alright.

re: #161 lawhawk

Well, not much different than one of their prior episodes where they had to save a mass murderer or a child rapist who was going to get the Chair (and yes, I know, this is supposed to take place in NJ where they haven't carried out the death penalty in decades).

It was going to be difficult carrying it on for many seasons without repeating some themes.

re: #163 HelloDare

I thought they had discovered Dinnerjacket birth certificate... born in the Kibbutz of Kiss-my-jewish-ass, as a Aaron Levy.

re: #168 Tom Reagan

Well, howdy Tom!

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On "House" tonight, James Earl Jones is playing an African Dictator. They have to figure out what's wrong... but deal with the idea of saving a blood-thirsty dictator. Nice.

Be nice if they could work in some kind of Darth Vader reference. Like having him breathe heavily in an oxygen tent.

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

you make a good point. I actually agree. However, it is blisteringly naive to assume that Iran with a nuke is somehow gonna be alright.

I have seen NOBODY here advocating that Iran should have a nuke!

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

you make a good point. I actually agree. However, it is blisteringly naive to assume that Iran with a nuke is somehow gonna be alright.

re: #174 sattv4u2

I have seen NOBODY here advocating that Iran should have a nuke!

AND ,,, you've "agreed" with similar points in the past , yet you can't seem to control yourself

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

I am comfortable with it. The best way to stop Iran's programs from the outside is to eliminate the people who man it. If killing the workers is what it takes to stop the program, then I support that option. It will also teach others the costs of working for our enemies.

Agreed, it is very reasonable to call for the killing of enemies such as terrorists and those actively involved with the Iranian Nuclear Weapons project. They present a clear and present danger and there is no reasonable alternative.

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On "House" tonight, James Earl Jones is playing an African Dictator. They have to figure out what's wrong... but deal with the idea of saving a blood-thirsty dictator. Nice.

golly, I can hardly wait to miss that one

re: #173 HelloDare

Be nice if they could work in some kind of Darth Vader reference. Like having him breathe heavily in an oxygen tent.

Or have him say

"THIS, IS CNN"

re: #77 Kosh's Shadow

I think something like "Nuke Iran now" would be a problem, but proposing attacks on their nuclear facilities would be allowed. And I'm trying to come up with a way of avoiding nuking Iran. Unfortunately, the diplomats are making that harder and harder.
What irony - in their quest for peace, they'll set up conditions where a nuclear war is inevitable.

There ought to be a better word than 'irony', but I can't think of it. Some people alive today remember that a fragile Hitler was allowed to march into the Rhineland.

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

That's fine, don't do it again :)

I don't know Tony C from Adam, but I am not trying to run around talking bad about him behind his back. I almost said something in the other thread. It wasn't until I read your post that I was prompted to make a reply because I think the post that you replied to and his post are related. As hawkish as I am, I draw the line at wishing for the death of civilians.

re: #174 sattv4u2

I have seen NOBODY here advocating that Iran should have a nuke!

Since the Iranis will not stop the program on their own. Any advocation of any policy that does not include taking out the facilities is advocating that they get a nuke.

There is no way around that.

re: #180 Liberal Classic

I don't know Tony C from Adam, but I am not trying to run around talking bad about him behind his back. I almost said something in the other thread. It wasn't until I read your post that I was prompted to make a reply because I think the post that you replied to and his post are related. As hawkish as I am, I draw the line at wishing for the death of civilians.

many civilians are a significant part of the threat...that's the harsh reality of it

Unlikely that he has NO Jewish roots -- just not recent ones. The pre-Islamic Sassanid shahs intermarried with Jews a lot, including in my family line that includes Charles Martel and, in Persia, the Exilarch Bastenai. (He was given a daughter of the old shah by the caliph, and our family is absolutely sure the widower first freed her, then converted her to Judaism, before marrying her. Political opponents in the 7th and 8th Centuries, who were actually vying against descendants from Bastenai's first marriage, made plenty of allegations to the contrary. Yeah, first millennium dirty tricks.)

re: #181 LudwigVanQuixote

Since the Iranis will not stop the program on their own. Any advocation of any policy that does not include taking out the facilities is advocating that they get a nuke.

There is no way around that.

So you are diametrically opposed to Obama's attempts at a diplomatic resolution!

good to know!

re: #130 imp_62

There is one sure way to cripple the Iranian war machine without the loss of any American or Israeli lives. It came to me during Family Guy the other night. Simply unblock all internet access in Iran and make all men aware of internet porn. Follow this with a massive airdrop of cheap yet rugged netbook computers. This should completely disable Iran for many months; furthermore, any Iranian government attempt to disable access to the porn sites will lead to revolution.

Perfect, no?

re: #133 marsl

Yes... but the iranians girls and women would pay the ultimate price...

I could console them.

After the Allies won WWII in the Pacific by nuking 2 Japanese cities, noone later claimed that the peace treaty was invalid and that Japan should get back all the lands it gave up. Nor did the Germans claim that the bombing of tens of thousands of civilians in Dresden and other cities somehow invalidated the Allied victory in Europe. And the use of the nukes was justified on the basis that it likely saved hundreds of thousands of American and Japanese lives.
Iran, on the other hand, is untouchable as it rushes to acquire nukes, even though it has vowed to destroy Israel and to drive the US out of the region.
Different strokes.

re: #186 Spare O'Lake

There still is one major difference. There is no formal "state of war" betwen Iran and anybody at this point in time

And once again, I pray DAILY that Iran does NOT aquire/ develop/ buy/ steal/ ANY nuclear weapon device

re: #84 sattv4u2

re: #180 Liberal Classic

[...] As hawkish as I am, I draw the line at wishing for the death of civilians.

While the quote you referred to alluded to civilians, in the context that Ludwig is using those "civilians" are working on a military project, controlled and defended by the military, thus they are a legitimate military target in the same way that terrorists wearing civilian clothes are.

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

So would you rather that Iran got a nuclear weapon? They seem rather clear about killing al the Jews with one. They certainly would export more terrorism as a result even if they did not start a nuke fight with Israel. They would also wreak havoc on the world oil market and set off a nuclear arms race between Sunni and Shia. I assure you that one does end in a nuke fight.

So really, since they will not just play nice, why does letting them have one, which will surely cost many more lives than destroying the facilities, end up as a more moral option to you?

What differentiates moderates from liberals is lack of naivete.

How do you get that I prefer Iran have a nuclear weapon and use it on Israel from my discomfiture with the notion of millions of Iranian casualties? This is an empty rhetorical trick.

I don't support Iran having nuclear weapons. If Israel, believing it is in her best interests to do so, makes a preemptive strike to destroy Iran's reactors or fuel refining sites, then I will likely side with them.

I draw the line at making positive, even hopeful statements about the likelihood of large numbers of civilian casualties. Is not as genocidal as the sentiment coming from Iranian leadership, but it is still wrong to a lesser degree. Modern warfare is centered around the destruction of the enemy's capacity to fight, while minimizing the impact on civilian population. This is a high standard, that is not always possible to achieve in practice, but a civilized and conscientious society can do no less.

re: #188 Bagua

re: #180 Liberal Classic

While the quote you referred to alluded to civilians, in the context that Ludwig is using those "civilians" are working on a military project, controlled and defended by the military, thus they are a legitimate military target in the same way that terrorists wearing civilian clothes are.

All true, but again there is no "state of war" that exists at present time between Iran and any nation

re: #159 sattv4u2

I know. I was looking to elicit a response though, to see where it led!

Have I given you a response yet?

re: #119 Guanxi88

I'll have to look those up, but great names.

re: #191 Liberal Classic

Have I given you a response yet?

Nahh ,,, I was just pokin at ya. On two serious notes though,
#1) I agreed with Walter (thus disagreeing with you) re: pulling up someone elses post (who is not here) to make a point to the person you're engaged in debate with
#2) your #189 nails it

re: #187 sattv4u2

There still is one major difference. There is no formal "state of war" betwen Iran and anybody at this point in time

And once again, I pray DAILY that Iran does NOT aquire/ develop/ buy/ steal/ ANY nuclear weapon device

A credible threat to obliterate another nation is an act of war.
Do you view the threat to Israel as real?

re: #189 Liberal Classic

How do you get that I prefer Iran have a nuclear weapon and use it on Israel from my discomfiture with the notion of millions of Iranian casualties? This is an empty rhetorical trick.

I don't support Iran having nuclear weapons. If Israel, believing it is in her best interests to do so, makes a preemptive strike to destroy Iran's reactors or fuel refining sites, then I will likely side with them.

I draw the line at making positive, even hopeful statements about the likelihood of large numbers of civilian casualties. Is not as genocidal as the sentiment coming from Iranian leadership, but it is still wrong to a lesser degree. Modern warfare is centered around the destruction of the enemy's capacity to fight, while minimizing the impact on civilian population. This is a high standard, that is not always possible to achieve in practice, but a civilized and conscientious society can do no less.

How in G-d's name do you get that I want civilian casualties. My entire argument is that what I am proposing costs the least lives in the long run.

As to advocating Iran getting a nuke. You did not. However, since the Iranis will not quit the program, any policy that does not advocate taking the program out, implicitly advocates letting Iran have a nuke.

re: #190 sattv4u2

All true, but again there is no "state of war" that exists at present time between Iran and any nation

? Is not any nation that continually calls for and acts towards the violent destruction of another in a state of war? Screw the lawyers if they want to add anything.

re: #192 Naso Tang

I'll have to look those up, but great names.

I loves me some WWII small arms. the SMLE was and is the finest bolt-action battle rifle ever; 10 round removable magazine, a super-fast action, rugged as all get-out.

The nagant revolver was a gift. It's an odd-ball weapon, and i've never put more than a few rounds through it.

The mauser 98k is a pure history item; a deliberately sabotaged rifle made for the nazis, but redeemed and purified by the israelis when they had need of a good reliable .30 cal rifle.

The Mosin Nagant is a brute-ugly, clunky battle rifle, a 19th century relic that survived into the 1960's. It's accuracy is marginal, the round is over-powered, the stock is painful, the bolt action is awkward, but it's the most durable weapon in the world. If you should ever find one so jammed full of grit and mud that you can't work the action, take a hammer ti the bolt operating handle until it opens, wash it out, and it's ready to go. Easiest rifle EVER to strip. Empty the magazine, clear the chamber, squeeze the trigger and work the action to pull the bolt out.

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

(And yikes, I'm kind of in the middle there too... and I can find enough trouble all by myself when I'm not even looking for it)...
///

re: #197 Guanxi88

I do also have a 30's H&R Handy Gun. .410. Looks just like something out of a Buck Rogers cartoon. very good for scaring bears in North Georgia. I haven't had to see what effect it could have on people, luckily.

The rest is some .22, .32 and 12 gauge.

re: #194 Spare O'Lake

A credible threat to obliterate another nation is an act of war.
Do you view the threat to Israel as real?

I beleive that Iran would LIKE to be able to take Israel out
I beleive even if they had a nuke at this moment it would be less than a 25% certainty that they would try

I have no data to support this (nor would anyone have any to refute it) but I beleive once the warheads start flying they won't stop until there are a LOT of Israelis dead. Taking out (or taking on) Iran brings Syria, Hamas and Hezzbo into play. Due to numbers and location wise Israel would incur incalulable damage even with their formidable military and hardware

re: #193 sattv4u2

Nahh ,,, I was just pokin at ya. On two serious notes though,
#1) I agreed with Walter (thus disagreeing with you) re: pulling up someone elses post (who is not here) to make a point to the person you're engaged in debate with

I certainly have no intention of hiding from TonyC. I believe his statement is wrong for reasons I've already said. I saw some similarity to Ludwig's statement, which is why I replied to Walter. I'm still not exactly sure what rule of etiquette I have broken, or how serious my faux pas was, but I'll try not to do it again.

#2) your #189 nails it

Thanks.

re: #201 Liberal Classic

I'm still not exactly sure what rule of etiquette I have broken, or how serious my faux pas was

Probably minor, at worse, but I know I wouldn't and I doubt you would like to have an old post of yours batted about without you being there to explain and/ or defend

re: #202 sattv4u2

I'm still not exactly sure what rule of etiquette I have broken, or how serious my faux pas was

Probably minor, at worse, but I know I wouldn't and I doubt you would like to have an old post of yours batted about without you being there to explain and/ or defend

Okay, I understand. Tony doesn't appear to be logged in to defend himself. That post was from today one thread down, but I'm not trying to score points against him, or anything. .

re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote

How in G-d's name do you get that I want civilian casualties. My entire argument is that what I am proposing costs the least lives in the long run.

As to advocating Iran getting a nuke. You did not. However, since the Iranis will not quit the program, any policy that does not advocate taking the program out, implicitly advocates letting Iran have a nuke.

He is conflating your comments with those of a different poster.

re: #109 HelloDare

Ahmadinejad was born in Kenya. I've got the birth certificate here someplace... let me see, where did I put it ...

There are elephant seals in Kenya?

re: #205 debutaunt

There are elephant seals in Kenya?

Is that a fat joke?

re: #190 sattv4u2

All true, but again there is no "state of war" that exists at present time between Iran and any nation

Weasel words do not concern me, was there a declared war during the Vietnam conflict? Is the "War on Terror" an official declaration of war?

Let lawyers worry about these details. What is necessary is to stop the Iranian march towards nuclear war and wars by proxy against the US, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. After this succeeds and the world is safe, we can discuss if it was "legal" or not.

This rumor that Ahmadin...whatever...was Jewish began circulating last summer, before the Presidential election. What was interesting was that another Iranian cleric was claiming this. This didn't speak so much about the accuracy of the claim, it was more of a Kremlinology kind of thing, trying to figure out if there are changes in the ruling power based on what information they allow to leak out. So all of the spy-type questions are raised. How stable is Dinnerjacket's hold on power, how strong is the green movement, does this weaken him or is he forced to 'clench his hand more tightly' in the face of upcoming 'negotiations' and possible blockade of gasoline, or is a cigar just a cigar and this whole thing is totally meaningless?

re: #207 Bagua

Weasel words do not concern me, was there a declared war during the Vietnam conflict? Is the "War on Terror" an official declaration of war?

Let lawyers worry about these details. What is necessary is to stop the Iranian march towards nuclear war and wars by proxy against the US, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. After this succeeds and the world is safe, we can discuss if it was "legal" or not.

taking out their nuke program facility(s) will do little to deter their wars by proxy against the US, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm afraid.

Taking out their nuke program SHOULD however, give some breathing room

re: #206 sattv4u2

Is that a fat joke?

Reference to Killgore's nirth certificate with an elephant seal eating it.

re: #197 Guanxi88

I loves me some WWII small arms. the SMLE was and is the finest bolt-action battle rifle ever; 10 round removable magazine, a super-fast action, rugged as all get-out.

The nagant revolver was a gift. It's an odd-ball weapon, and i've never put more than a few rounds through it.

The mauser 98k is a pure history item; a deliberately sabotaged rifle made for the nazis, but redeemed and purified by the israelis when they had need of a good reliable .30 cal rifle.

The Mosin Nagant is a brute-ugly, clunky battle rifle, a 19th century relic that survived into the 1960's. It's accuracy is marginal, the round is over-powered, the stock is painful, the bolt action is awkward, but it's the most durable weapon in the world. If you should ever find one so jammed full of grit and mud that you can't work the action, take a hammer ti the bolt operating handle until it opens, wash it out, and it's ready to go. Easiest rifle EVER to strip. Empty the magazine, clear the chamber, squeeze the trigger and work the action to pull the bolt out.

Try a Yugoslav 1948 Mauser. Those are still for sale. They are built to kar98K specs but at full peacetime standards.

re: #209 sattv4u2

taking out their nuke program facility(s) will do little to deter their wars by proxy against the US, Israel, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm afraid.

Taking out their nuke program SHOULD however, give some breathing room

Alternatively, allowing them to develop a Nuclear Weapons capacity would serve as an umbrella for their proxy wars, the expectation is that they would thus accelerate. This is another reason why it is unacceptable for them to have nuclear weapons.

re: #200 sattv4u2

I beleive that Iran would LIKE to be able to take Israel out
I beleive even if they had a nuke at this moment it would be less than a 25% certainty that they would try

I have no data to support this (nor would anyone have any to refute it) but I beleive once the warheads start flying they won't stop until there are a LOT of Israelis dead. Taking out (or taking on) Iran brings Syria, Hamas and Hezzbo into play. Due to numbers and location wise Israel would incur incalulable damage even with their formidable military and hardware

There are those who believe that the madman means what he says, and there are those who do not.
Netanyahu believes the threat is real and existential, and that is good enough for me.

Not even circumcised?
You mean he's just an ordinary schmuck.

re: #212 Bagua

Alternatively, allowing them to develop a Nuclear Weapons capacity would serve as an umbrella for their proxy wars, the expectation is that they would thus accelerate. This is another reason why it is unacceptable for them to have nuclear weapons.

I never stated it was acceptable, desireable, or any other 'able'. This all started when someone questioned the wisdom of advocating civilian deaths that would result in a strike on an Iranian facility. It was pointed out that it has been policy at LGF not to advocate death to non-combatants. I was agreeing with that statement

re: #214 Stuart Leviton

Not even circumcised?
You mean he's just an ordinary schmuck.

I still call him short shit!

re: #215 sattv4u2

I never stated it was acceptable, desireable, or any other 'able'. This all started when someone questioned the wisdom of advocating civilian deaths that would result in a strike on an Iranian facility. It was pointed out that it has been policy at LGF not to advocate death to non-combatants. I was agreeing with that statement

See my comment:

re: #188 Bagua

re:

While the quote you referred to alluded to civilians, in the context that Ludwig is using those "civilians" are working on a military project, controlled and defended by the military, thus they are a legitimate military target in the same way that terrorists wearing civilian clothes are.

As usual, I come so late that the threads that interest me are already dead. I saw this report a few days ago and figured the reason the Western media liked the idea was that it allowed them to dismiss Ahmadinejad's threats against Israel as mere psychological reaction.

"You see, Iran doesn't really want to destroy Israel, it's just this goofball who has something to prove, so stop talking about destroying Iran's reactors and please, please restrain the Zionist Entity."

Mahmoud...Mathmoud...lemme see--wasn't I at his bris?

What if all these mullahs were to believe that every other basij thug in Qom is secretly Jewish? Mightn't they turn on each other like the pack of maddened curs they are? Why would that be a bad thing?

Contrary to the report in the Telegraph (which spread like wildfire through the right wing blogosphere — but not at LGF because it smelled funny to me) Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has no Jewish roots.

Hey there Charles and all Lizards, I'd like to apologize for being the one bringing up the story here a couple of days ago. I can offer no excuse for not thinking things through. Wanting Ahmadinejad to be deposed of (or any strong desire for that matter) should not prevent any one of us from spreading wrong information or taking up false hope, and I hope to never to that again on LGF.

re: #221 Surabaya Stew

I heard the story a while ago and didn't believe it, so don't beat yourself up over it. It had spread far and wide long before you brought it up so don't sweat it.