Karl Rove Endorses Creationist Florida Candidate Rubio

Politics • Views: 9,299

Karl Rove came out today in support of Florida’s former state House Speaker Marco Rubio, in his bid to upset Governor Charlie Crist in the election for one of Florida’s Senate seats.

It gives me no pleasure to report that, like almost every Republican politician, Marco Rubio is a creationist — and he wants to see his anti-science dogma taught in public school science classrooms: Rubio: Florida House open to legislative fix on evolution.

TALLAHASSEE (FBW) – An evolution compromise approved on Feb. 19 by the State Board of Education was the best that could be achieved in that body but legislative action to protect academic freedom of teachers offering criticisms of Darwinian evolution is possible, House Speaker Marco Rubio told Florida Baptist Witness in a Feb. 20 interview.

Rubio said the Board of Education’s addition of “scientific theory of” before each reference to “evolution” in new science standards for Florida’s public schools was “the best fix available” with “the way those votes were lining up.” …

Rubio said there also could be activity in the legislature by evolution proponents who wish to remove the theory compromise language. “I think there’s still going to be folks out there talking about this – on both sides. … I think this will be a battle that will go on for quite some time,” he said.

The “crux” of the disagreement, according Rubio, is “whether what a parent teaches their children at home should be mocked and derided and undone at the public school level. It goes to the fundamental core of who is ultimately, primarily responsible for the upbringing of children. Is it your public education system or is it your parents?”

Rubio added, “And for me, personally, I don’t want a school system that teaches kids that what they’re learning at home is wrong.”

To Marco Rubio, teaching evolutionary science to children is the first step to becoming just like Fidel Castro’s Cuba:

Rubio, a Cuban-American, made a comparison to the strategy employed by the Communist Party in Cuba where schools encouraged children to turn in parents who criticized Fidel Castro.

“Of course, I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro,” he quickly added, while noting that undermining the family and the church were key means the Communist Party used to gain control in Cuba.

“In order to impose their totalitarian regime, they destroyed the family; they destroyed the faith links that existed in that society,” he said.

Although the evolution issue is “obviously” on a “much smaller scale,” both matters are related to the “fundamental question of who is in charge of the upbringing of children. Is it parents or is it the government? I believe it’s parents. And we should do nothing in government that undermines that relationship.

“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.

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760 comments
1 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:16:49pm

Oh, that's great. I look forward to the Republicans NEVER WINNING AN ELECTION AGAIN.

2 Summer Seale  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:16:50pm

I know that to Karl Rove, all that really matters is the numbers. He seems less concerned with issues than with playing the numbers game like the mad genius that he sometimes can be.

But, really, Karl...

3 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:17:27pm

re: #1 acwgusa

Oh, that's great. I look forward to the Republicans NEVER WINNING AN ELECTION AGAIN.

That was meant to be sarcastic by the way.

4 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:18:09pm

Make it stop, teh crazy!

I don't want be on Team Olbermann.

5 Right Brain  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:18:15pm

Ugh, and I was starting to like Rove, seemed middle of the road lately, respectful and smart, and now this. Depressing.

6 John Neverbend  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:18:43pm

There's something Seinfeldian about all of this. I can foresee a time when teachers in Florida will have to keep saying "not that there's anything wrong with that," every time they mention evolution.

7 Locker  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:19:57pm

re: #4 BigPapa

Make it stop, teh crazy!

I don't want be on Team Olbermann.

You don't have to be, trust me. Plenty of us lefties think Olbermann is a drama queen dumb ass. I think you should continue to be on Team LGF otherwise known as Team Anti-Bullshit.

8 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:23:11pm

I've wondered why there's been an uptick in my parental units mental health division. With American Politics the way it is, I'm going to ask for a rubber room of my very own!

9 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:26:01pm

Christ for Governor!

10 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:26:56pm

arrrgg arrggg arrrggg

This goes right in line with Fred Thompson endorsing the NY Conservative party candidate over Diedre Scozzafavo... [Link: www.northcountrypublicradio.org...]

The Club for decay is determined to make sure we lose in all the populous urban states.

11 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:27:06pm

re: #2 Summer

I know that to Karl Rove, all that really matters is the numbers. He seems less concerned with issues than with playing the numbers game like the mad genius that he sometimes can be.

But, really, Karl...

I'm starting to get tired of people, especially Beltway Insiders, treating politics as though it was just another sport. Dick Morris strikes me as a person of this stripe as well. It's just a game to him. Apparently Rove is the same way.

They want their guy to win and act like the actual results don't matter. When Pittsburgh won the Super Bowl, it did not effect taxes or education in either Pittsburgh or Phoenix. There are real consequences to elections.

12 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:27:45pm

re: #9 Spare O'Lake

Christ for Governor!

First isn't that good. Despite the creationism, Rubio might be a better choice. We can't rid of the creationists in places like Florida, but it might be possible to pass laws to keep them from messing up the schools.

13 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:28:18pm

Interesting assumption about what children are being taught at home.

14 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:29:19pm

These evil religious right zealots and liars are not the "old time religion" they claim to be. They are creatures of the mass media, specifically of televangelism and its cancerous outgrowths like fundy universities, supplement marketing, and the megachurches around which they are built.
This origin is obvious in their crude sound bite rhetoric, their showmanship, and their straightforward use of famliar marketing tropes.

I know, I said the same thing about the pop-left for years and it is still true of them as well. This rightwing version is, if anything, even dumber and more dangerous.

15 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:29:59pm

Rubio is a creationist? Great. sheesh. rats.

16 meeshlr  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:30:25pm

For goodness sake.

What kind of choice am I going to have in the next election -- nanny state give us all your money and we'll take care of everything Democrats versus anti-abortion creationist birther Republicans?

Please, could someone find a sane, rational, intelligent politician?

17 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:30:30pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

First isn't that good. Despite the creationism, Rubio might be a better choice. We can't rid of the creationists in places like Florida, but it might be possible to pass laws to keep them from messing up the schools.

One can only hope. And vote that way.

18 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:31:20pm

Don't believe the crap you read about Club for Growth being fiscon. Their prime unspoken agenda is social conservatism. This is why you see Gary Bauer of C st and Abramoff fame also endorsing Doug Hoffman over Dede Scozzafava - club for growth is about the "good ol boy Xtian network".

19 bosforus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:31:40pm

re: #16 meeshlr

Please, could someone find a sane, rational, intelligent politician?

Not gonna happen. All the sane, rational, intelligent people avoid politics.

20 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:31:49pm
“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.

Absolutely. Because how passionately you believe something is the test of its scientific truth. The earlier a child realizes that, the better. (/)

21 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:32:37pm

Figures

I always thought of Crist as the kind of Republican I could vote for and now the Republicans are trying to run him out of the party.

22 Summer Seale  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:33:17pm

re: #11 ArchangelMichael

I'm starting to get tired of people, especially Beltway Insiders, treating politics as though it was just another sport. Dick Morris strikes me as a person of this stripe as well. It's just a game to him. Apparently Rove is the same way.

They want their guy to win and act like the actual results don't matter. When Pittsburgh won the Super Bowl, it did not effect taxes or education in either Pittsburgh or Phoenix. There are real consequences to elections.

I agree. I put Carville and Mary Matalin in the exact same category. It's just a talking heads game to them for the most part.

23 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:33:33pm

Being a creationist does not necessarily make you bad. I know several who are decent people - they do not force their beliefs upon me. Nor do they expect their spiritual beliefs to be taught in public school. But the ones who do - yowza!

The devil God made me post this. Not sure which. But somebody did. It's not my fault.

24 bosforus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:33:45pm

re: #21 Conservative Moonbat

Figures

I always thought of Crist as the kind of Republican I could vote for and now the Republicans are trying to run him out of the party.

I didst not forsake thee, but thou hast forsaken me.

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:34:01pm

In related news, Gary Bauer says Barack Obama is a pro-ghey blasphemer.

26 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:35:07pm

re: #21 Conservative Moonbat

Figures

I always thought of Crist as the kind of Republican I could vote for and now the Republicans are trying to run him out of the party.

That's right -- the religious right is systematically tightening its hold over the GOP.

27 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:35:59pm

Club for growth: half theocrats, half scam artists, few are mainstream Republicans.

28 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:37:21pm

re: #25 Charles

In related news, Gary Bauer says Barack Obama is a pro-ghey blasphemer.

Nice symmetry - Bauer's an anti-gay blasphemer.

29 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:37:39pm

Charles, thanks for turning me on to Porcupine Tree. Listening to this as I input data. It rocks!

PORCUPINE TREE (Live/HQ) - Arriving Somewhere But Not Here

30 RealismRox  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:39:08pm

re: #21 Conservative Moonbat

Figures

I always thought of Crist as the kind of Republican I could vote for and now the Republicans are trying to run him out of the party.

It's really a shame, smart and honest people are not allowed in today's Republican party. I say this as someone who has voted R my entire life. McCain should have picked Crist as his running mate imo, but because of rumors that Crist is gay (he's married to a woman) he's toxic to the fundie base.

31 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:39:21pm

Rove you magnificent wedgie bastard.

32 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:39:31pm

After reading this I can say that Marc Rubio is no run of the mill pandering GOP creationist but a full blown member of the Crazy Creationist Club. Evolution as a route towards Fidel Castro?

33 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:39:40pm
34 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:40:19pm

re: #32 Gus 802

Evolution as a route towards Fidel Castro?


Hitler and Stalin too.

35 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Hitler and Stalin too.

Yep, and homosexuality, eugenics, abortion, etc.

//Thump, thump, thump.

/

36 Achilles Tang  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:42:05pm

Nearby, we have an upcoming election for mayor of St. Petersburg, FL. One of the candidates is a YEC no less, but that will have no effect on any decision he makes, regarding science or anything else, he says.

We will see how many idiots there are in St. Petersburg in due course.

37 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:42:06pm

re: #25 Charles

In related news, Gary Bauer says Barack Obama is a pro-ghey blasphemer.

I just read it, Charles, and I must respectfully disagree. Bauer is hostile to Obama's positions, true. But his point that Obama is deploying selected portions Scripture to defend policies that the Bible as a whole does not support is sound. The point can be argued, but it is not crazy.

38 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:43:46pm

re: #36 Naso Tang

Nearby, we have an upcoming election for mayor of St. Petersburg, FL. One of the candidates is a YEC no less, but that will have no effect on any decision he makes, regarding science or anything else, he says.

We will see how many idiots there are in St. Petersburg in due course.

Is there a candidate who is neither a liberal nor a YEC? If so, vote for that candidate. If not, vote for the YEC. They do less damage than liberals.

39 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:45:40pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

There's a lot of room for many different positions...
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE (Abortion)

It's not a clear as many would have us believe.

40 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:48:31pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

There's a lot of room for many different positions...
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE (Abortion)

It's not a clear as many would have us believe.

Interesting. The way to bring that up would be to use a different interpretation to counter Bauer's. Require him to defend his interpretation. That, I'm fine with.

41 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:48:38pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

I just read it, Charles, and I must respectfully disagree. Bauer is hostile to Obama's positions, true. But his point that Obama is deploying selected portions Scripture to defend policies that the Bible as a whole does not support is sound. The point can be argued, but it is not crazy.

I read it too. I'm an atheist, but I know the hebrew and greek texts (in it's many translations) and there is NO WAY to turn to scripture to validate abortion or a gay lifestyle.

And, if Obama is doing that, then he is no better than a right wing fundamentalist who misuses scripture to speak against the age of the world or the existence of gravity.

42 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:49:12pm

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

I just read it, Charles, and I must respectfully disagree. Bauer is hostile to Obama's positions, true. But his point that Obama is deploying selected portions Scripture to defend policies that the Bible as a whole does not support is sound. The point can be argued, but it is not crazy.

What are you "disagreeing" with? The article is exactly what I described. Bauer accuses Obama of being pro-gay, and of using God's name in vain. Hence "pro-ghey blasphemer."

43 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:50:51pm

Karl Rove came out today in support of Florida’s former state House Speaker Marco Rubio, in his bid to upset Governor Charlie Crist.

This makes it sound like the are both running for gubner. They are trying to take the Senate seat vacated by Mel Martinez. The seat was filled by Crist, I think with his former Chief of Staff. Just a seat warmer currently.

44 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:51:47pm

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

I read it too. I'm an atheist, but I know the hebrew and greek texts (in it's many translations) and there is NO WAY to turn to scripture to validate abortion or a gay lifestyle.

And, if Obama is doing that, then he is no better than a right wing fundamentalist who misuses scripture to speak against the age of the world or the existence of gravity.


You know the Hebrew and Greek texts? Wow...you be a scholar, dude.

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:52:12pm

re: #44 BignJames

Man knows his stuff...

46 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:52:56pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

There's a lot of room for many different positions...
Pagan & Christian beliefs 400 BCE -1980 CE (Abortion)

It's not a clear as many would have us believe.

As so many "church fathers" do, he is arguing mainly from the seat of a philosopher, not from scripture.

Interesting, from the same article, the Jewish faith says "The Jewish faith was generally opposed to both infanticide and abortion." That's because they are using Torah and not philosophizing away.

47 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:53:04pm

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

I read it too. I'm an atheist, but I know the hebrew and greek texts (in it's many translations) and there is NO WAY to turn to scripture to validate abortion or a gay lifestyle.

And, if Obama is doing that, then he is no better than a right wing fundamentalist who misuses scripture to speak against the age of the world or the existence of gravity.

Thank you Walter. Well said.

48 Achilles Tang  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:53:33pm

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

Is there a candidate who is neither a liberal nor a YEC? If so, vote for that candidate. If not, vote for the YEC. They do less damage than liberals.

I believe the opponent, a woman, is neither liberal nor YEC, but it's not my city so I can't vote this one.

49 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:53:43pm

re: #44 BignJames

You know the Hebrew and Greek texts? Wow...you be a scholar, dude.

I never claimed to be a scholar.

50 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:55:15pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

I never claimed to be a scholar.


No...I claimed you to be a scholar...IMHO...of course.

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:56:24pm

re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Man knows his stuff...

Well, thank you, but I am not a scholar. I have never even gone to college. The most I can say is I have a good "armchair" education in comparative religion. There is a lot I don't know.

52 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:57:48pm

re: #43 Cannadian Club Akbar

Karl Rove came out today in support of Florida’s former state House Speaker Marco Rubio, in his bid to upset Governor Charlie Crist.

This makes it sound like the are both running for gubner. They are trying to take the Senate seat vacated by Mel Martinez. The seat was filled by Crist, I think with his former Chief of Staff. Just a seat warmer currently.

You're right, that could have been clearer. I edited the post to make it so.

53 davinvalkri  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:58:01pm

re: #7 Locker

You don't have to be, trust me. Plenty of us lefties think Olbermann is a drama queen dumb ass. I think you should continue to be on Team LGF otherwise known as Team Anti-Bullshit.

The Anti-idiotarian party! Let's see, we'll need Charles, Victor Davis Hanson, Krauthammer, Mark Steyn (?), John Derbyshire, Zell Miller...

54 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:58:39pm

"to protect academic freedom of teachers offering criticisms of Darwinian evolution is possible"

The Discovery Institute (defenders of intelligent design/creationism) have been pushing the idea of "academic freedom" for a while now. The movie "Expelled" was pushing that agenda. Concurrently with "academic freedom" they are pushing for a "strengths and weaknesses" clause to be entered into education.

Here's an article written about this tactic by Lauri Lebo, who also covered the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial: Using Academic Freedom to Keep God in the Science Classroom

The cause of "academic freedom" was previously taken up in Texas.
In Florida they tried to push for a bill talking about "critical analysis" of evolution.

"'Critical analysis' is the latest buzzword in the creationist movement to sneak intelligent design or creationism into the curriculum," said David Karlen, a Tampa biologist and a member of the Florida Academy of Sciences. /.../
Karlen noted that advocates of "critical analysis" don't try to apply it to other areas of science, only to evolution.


Here's an account of a similar attempt in Louisiana, and there are plenty more cases to find.

A sarcastic version of this rethoric in defense of the academic freedom to question "Newtonism" was posted on Pharyngula last year.

It'd be one thing if select fringe groups or individual members of government tried to push things like this through, but once they get support from people with positions of real power in government, and these are in turn not immediately chastised for doing so, you're slowly but surely cementing the anti-science ideal with the party.
I can understand it as a political maneuver for votes. What I can't understand is the long-term game. Are they hoping the rational voters will be a minority? Are they hoping for a theocracy?
Please enlighten me.

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:59:10pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I am a dynamic figure, often seen scaling walls and crushing ice. I have been known to remodel train stations on my lunch breaks, making them more efficient in the area of heat retention. I translate ethnic slurs for Cuban refugees, I write award-winning operas, I manage time efficiently.

Occasionally, I tread water for three days in a row. I woo women with my sensuous and godlike trombone playing, I can pilot bicycles up severe inclines with unflagging speed, and I cook Thirty-Minute Brownies in twenty minutes. I am an expert in stucco, a veteran in love, and an outlaw in Peru.

Using only a hoe and a large glass of water, I once single-handedly defended a small village in the Amazon Basin from a horde of ferocious army ants. I play bluegrass cello, I was scouted by the Mets, I am the subject of numerous documentaries. When I'm bored, I build large suspension bridges in my yard. I enjoy urban hang gliding. On Wednesdays, after school, I repair electrical appliances free of charge.

I am an abstract artist, a concrete analyst, and a ruthless bookie. Critics worldwide swoon over my original line of corduroy evening wear. I don't perspire. I am a private citizen, yet I receive fan mail. I have been caller number nine and have won the weekend passes. Last summer I toured New Jersey with a traveling centrifugal-force demonstration. I bat 400.

My deft floral arrangements have earned me fame in international botany circles. Children trust me. I can hurl tennis rackets at small moving objects with deadly accuracy. I once read Paradise Lost, Moby Dick, and David Copperfield in one day and still had time to refurbish an entire dining room that evening. I know the exact location of every food item in the supermarket. I have performed several covert operations with the CIA.

I sleep once a week; when I do sleep, I sleep in a chair. While on vacation in Canada, I successfully negotiated with a group of terrorists who had seized a small bakery. I balance, I weave, I dodge, I frolic, and my bills are all paid.

On weekends, to let off steam, I participate in full-contact origami. Years ago I discovered the meaning of life but forgot to write it down. I have made extraordinary four course meals using only a mouli and a toaster oven. I breed prize-winning clams. I have won bullfights in San Juan, cliff-diving competitions in Sri Lanka, and spelling bees at the Kremlin.

I have played Hamlet, I have performed open-heart surgery, and I have spoken with Elvis.

But I have not yet gone to college.

-Author unknown...

56 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:59:35pm

Love to see this poll(s)
Who should have the final word on lessons parents of young children (say 6-12) object to in 1-Religion/Evolution 2-Human Sexuality/Health
A. Parents
B. The School

57 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:59:57pm

re: #42 Charles

What are you "disagreeing" with? The article is exactly what I described. Bauer accuses Obama of being pro-gay, and of using God's name in vain. Hence "pro-ghey blasphemer."

He does accuse Obama of being pro-gay, but he does not accuse Obama of taking the Lord's name in vain in that article. He accused Obama of misinterpretation and misappropriation of Scripture, which is not the same thing. In Bauer own words:

I don’t mean to question the sincerity of Obama’s faith. This is a discussion of language. Increasingly, it seems as though the president’s deepest belief is in his own ability to disregard his critics’ moral objections by touting abstract religious principles and embracing empty religious symbolism. Obama seems to think that Americans will accept his out-of-the-mainstream views on moral issues as long as he claims those views arise in part from his religious beliefs.

58 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:00:31pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks. I need to post that on my Wiki entry. LOL :)

59 ryannon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:02:57pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


-Author unknown...

Chuck Norris?

60 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:03:13pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

He does accuse Obama of being pro-gay, but he does not accuse Obama of taking the Lord's name in vain in that article.

The headline of the article is: Does Obama use God's name in vain? - Gary Bauer - POLITICO.com.

61 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:03:47pm

re: #54 cenotaphium

"to protect academic freedom of teachers offering criticisms of Darwinian evolution is possible"

The Discovery Institute (defenders of intelligent design/creationism) have been pushing the idea of "academic freedom" for a while now. The movie "Expelled" was pushing that agenda. Concurrently with "academic freedom" they are pushing for a "strengths and weaknesses" clause to be entered into education.

Here's an article written about this tactic by Lauri Lebo, who also covered the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial: Using Academic Freedom to Keep God in the Science Classroom

The cause of "academic freedom" was previously taken up in Texas.
In Florida they tried to push for a bill talking about "critical analysis" of evolution.


Here's an account of a similar attempt in Louisiana, and there are plenty more cases to find.

A sarcastic version of this rethoric in defense of the academic freedom to question "Newtonism" was posted on Pharyngula last year.

It'd be one thing if select fringe groups or individual members of government tried to push things like this through, but once they get support from people with positions of real power in government, and these are in turn not immediately chastised for doing so, you're slowly but surely cementing the anti-science ideal with the party.
I can understand it as a political maneuver for votes. What I can't understand is the long-term game. Are they hoping the rational voters will be a minority? Are they hoping for a theocracy?
Please enlighten me.

See: LGF: Lebo: Using 'Academic Freedom' to Keep God in the Science Classroom

62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:04:06pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Attribution... Author is known.

Comments: This satirical essay, or a version of it, was written by a high school student named Hugh Gallagher, who entered it in the humor category of the Scholastic Writing Awards in 1990 and won first prize. It was subsequently published in Literary Calvalcade, a magazine of contemporary student writing, and reprinted in Harper's and The Guardian before taking off as one of the most forwarded "viral" emails of the decade.

Though this was not his actual college application essay, Gallagher was ultimately accepted at NYU, where he graduated in 1994. Since then he has worked as a freelance writer. His first novel, Teeth, was published by Pocket Books in March 1998.

63 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:04:08pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


And until you get that sheepskin...you're goin' nowhere in this organization...

my boss

64 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:04:48pm

re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ok, ok... so I won't use it.

65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:04:54pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta admit, Walter. You've done a bunch of stuff...

66 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:05:13pm

re: #53 davinvalkri

The Anti-idiotarian party! Let's see, we'll need Charles, Victor Davis Hanson, Krauthammer, Mark Steyn (?), John Derbyshire, Zell Miller...

I think Derbyshire is out, unless his recently expressed wish to roll back women's suffrage was a joke. It was hard to tell.

67 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:05:23pm

re: #65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gotta admit, Walter. You've done a bunch of stuff...

... and I'm not even near finished.

68 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:05:28pm

re: #61 Charles

Doh. I guess I should do some searching before posting old news. :/

69 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:05:35pm

re: #56 Rightwingconspirator

Love to see this poll(s)
Who should have the final word on lessons parents of young children (say 6-12) object to in 1-Religion/Evolution 2-Human Sexuality/Health
A. Parents
B. The School

A fine example of rigged push-polling, designed for the explicit purpose of eliciting one particular response.

In other words, disingenuous in the extreme, with more straw men than The Blair Witch Project.

70 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:06:14pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Stay thirsty, my friend.

71 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

I read it too. I'm an atheist, but I know the hebrew and greek texts (in it's many translations) and there is NO WAY to turn to scripture to validate abortion or a gay lifestyle.

You could say exactly the same about evolution! I think that modern liberal interpretations of the scriptures are probably 'wrong' - ie not what was originally intended in most cases, but I don't think our overriding concern should be staying true to the bigotry of the original texts. Given that believers are going to be around in large numbers for a while yet even on the most optimistic assessments, I think that the more of them go with these 'wrong' liberal interpretations the better.

72 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:06:51pm

re: #70 Racer X

Stay thirsty, my friend.


lol!

73 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:07:07pm

re: #68 cenotaphium

Doh. I guess I should do some searching before posting old news. :/

No, that was a good post. I'm just pointing out that I've been hammering this very issue here for quite a while.

74 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:07:10pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

I think Derbyshire is out, unless his recently expressed wish to roll back women's suffrage was a joke. It was hard to tell.

"[Women] want someone to nurture, they want someone to help raise their kids, and if men aren't inclined to do it -- and in the present days, they're not much -- then they'd like the state to do it for them."
Derbyshire went on to add:
"Among the hopes that I do not realistically nurse is the hope that female suffrage will be repealed. But I'll say this - if it were to be, I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep."


Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

75 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:07:32pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sounds like my Frosh year at Napa Valley College...
/ Hi Veggie

76 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:08:02pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

Gary Bauer is a fundie fanatic. Here's some of the pablum from his article:

For example, Obama has referenced the Sermon on the Mount in support of special rights for homosexuals, despite the Scriptures’ clear support of marriage between one man and one woman and its admonitions to celebrate sex inside the married relationship only.

Life and death issues became the spark igniting the public backlash against Obama’s plans. They arose from concerns over possible death sentences for the ill and elderly should care be rationed and from concerns about tax-payer funded abortions, to name a few. Obama wrapped himself in Scripture to combat opposition to his plans. At one point, he alleged that Obamacare opponents were not just mistaken but also immoral and “bearing false witness” for worrying about taxpayer funding of abortion under his plan.

Special rights for homosexuals and death sentences for the ill and elderly. Right, I've heard this before.

77 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:08:05pm

re: #60 Charles

The headline of the article is: Does Obama use God's name in vain? - Gary Bauer - POLITICO.com.

True, but in Bauer's defense He does not bring that up in the article itself. Though that doesn't fully justify the headline.

78 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:09:02pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

I think Derbyshire is out, unless his recently expressed wish to roll back women's suffrage was a joke. It was hard to tell.

That was not the first time Derbyshire has advocated taking the right to vote away from women. I think he's serious about it, although he's also smart enough to realize it will never happen.

79 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:09:39pm

re: #71 Jimmah

You could say exactly the same about evolution! I think that modern liberal interpretations of the scriptures are probably 'wrong' - ie not what was originally intended in most cases, but I don't think our overriding concern should be staying true to the bigotry of the original texts. Given that believers are going to be around in large numbers for a while yet even on the most optimistic assessments, I think that the more of them go with these 'wrong' liberal interpretations the better.

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to how religion should be use, misused or not used in modern society, I'm just pointing out the historical and scientific realities of text criticism.

If I had my way, magic wand... poof... all religion gone.

80 davinvalkri  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:10:02pm

re: #78 Charles

That was not the first time Derbyshire has advocated taking the right to vote away from women. I think he's serious about it, although he's also smart enough to realize it will never happen.

...huh. Never saw that before. Oh dear...

81 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:10:05pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

You never went to College? seriously?
Where did get the writing chops for your screenplays...
You never went to college?
Don't lie Walter

82 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:10:15pm

re: #76 Gus 802

Special rights for homosexuals and death sentences for the ill and elderly. Right, I've heard this before.

Of course, Bauer is also a creationist, who wants to teach it in science classes -- which pretty much goes without saying:

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

83 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:10:58pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

You never went to College? seriously?
Where did get the writing chops for your screenplays...
You never went to college?
Don't lie Walter

I don't write screenplays, I write plays. Chops... er, from life.

84 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:11:01pm

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to how religion should be use, misused or not used in modern society, I'm just pointing out the historical and scientific realities of text criticism.

If I had my way, magic wand... poof... all religion gone.

So who makes the magic wand?
//

85 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon


Does Obama use God's name in vain? - Gary Bauer - POLITICO.com


I do...it's a sin...it's not against the law...anymore.

86 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:11:45pm

re: #84 rwdflynavy

So who makes the magic wand?
//

Find it on Ebay. You can find anything on Ebay.

87 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:13:00pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I don't write screenplays, I write plays. Chops... er, from life.

Life may give you alot..But it doesn't pass out the gift of prose of street corners...
Kudos!

88 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:13:32pm

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

Find it on Ebay. You can find anything on Ebay.


Potato chips that look like Elvis...big sellers.

89 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:13:53pm

re: #82 Charles

Of course, Bauer is also a creationist, which pretty much goes without saying:

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

The return of the Phyllis Schlafly Wing of the GOP. It's amazing how fast they've resurfaced this year. They've completely lost my support.

90 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:14:20pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

Life may give you alot..But it doesn't pass out the gift of prose of street corners...
Kudos!

Thanks.

91 davinvalkri  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:15:23pm

re: #89 Gus 802

The return of the Phyllis Schlafly Wing of the GOP. It's amazing how fast they've resurfaced this year. They've completely lost my support.

Where's the Barry Goldwater/William F. Buckley Wing when you need them?!

92 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:15:42pm

re: #81 HoosierHoops

You never went to College? seriously?
Where did get the writing chops for your screenplays...
You never went to college?
Don't lie Walter

Hoops - for some people, college is not only not necessary, but detrimental. It is in many case just a safe place to lock up a kid until s/he fucks the excess hormones off and drinks away the surplus brain cells.

Joseph Campbell never went. He withdrew to a cabin in the woods and read for many years. An autodidact. Out came one of the most original thinkers of the twentieth century.

I suspect Walter is that type of person.

93 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:15:51pm

re: #91 davinvalkri

Where's the Barry Goldwater/William F. Buckley Wing when you need them?!

still dead.

94 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:17:07pm

re: #85 BignJames

Does Obama use God's name in vain? - Gary Bauer - POLITICO.com

I do...it's a sin...it's not against the law...anymore.

I'm not saying it should be illegal. Neither is Gary Bauer, though there are some Dominionists that do say that.

95 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:17:23pm

re: #92 Cato the Elder

Hoops - for some people, college is not only not necessary, but detrimental. It is in many case just a safe place to lock up a kid until s/he fucks the excess hormones off and drinks away the surplus brain cells.

Joseph Campbell never went. He withdrew to a cabin in the woods and read for many years. An autodidact. Out came one of the most original thinkers of the twentieth century.

I suspect Walter is that type of person.

Ok, really, thanks for the compliments, but let's go on. Knowing me, tomorrow I'll get in trouble and be banned and we'll all wonder what happened to my brain.

Please, take the thread back... :)

96 davinvalkri  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:17:46pm

re: #93 rwdflynavy

still dead.

Goldwater and Buckley may be dead, but you'd think their "wing" of the party would still be standing athwart history yelling "STOP".
/And you know what, I'm standing by it: Buckley/Goldwater '12 and '16!

97 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:18:43pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Derbyshire went on to add:
"Among the hopes that I do not realistically nurse is the hope that female suffrage human bondage will be repealed reinstated. But I'll say this - if it were to be, I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep."

He may not be ready to say that yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if he thought it.

98 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:18:48pm

re: #91 davinvalkri

Where's the Barry Goldwater/William F. Buckley Wing when you need them?!

No doubt they are experiencing the RINO hellfire!

/ Bauer Off

99 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:18:56pm

re: #82 Charles

Of course, Bauer is also a creationist, who wants to teach it in science classes -- which pretty much goes without saying:

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

Bauer's also got the usual Reverend Moon ties, and used to run FRC up until 2000. Current roster:

The Honorable Steven C. Baldwin, Member, California Assembly
Jane Chastain, political commentator, columnist and broadcaster
William T. Devlin, President, Urban Family Council
Dr. John R. Diggs Jr.
Raymond L. Flynn, President, Catholic Alliance
Allen C. Guelzo, Ph.D., Dean, Eastern College
The Honorable Alan Keyes, former United States ambassador to the United Nations (CNP)
Connaught (Connie) Marshner, Raphael Services (CNP)
Janet Parshall, radio talk show host
The Reverend Laurence White, Senior Pastor, Our Savior Lutheran Church
Dr. Bernard Nathanson, pro-life leader, producer of "The Silent Scream"
Maggie Gallagher, columnist and author of "A Case for Marriage"

100 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:19:24pm

re: #91 davinvalkri

Where's the Barry Goldwater/William F. Buckley Wing when you need them?!

No where to be found. In fact, I doubt they would be considered to be a part of the mainstream GOP were they to start again. They would have to pass the fundie litmus test which they would fail.

101 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:20:04pm

BBL

102 peterb  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:20:08pm

Dear Creationist Republicans, which I hope and pray is actually just an extremely loudmouthed minority, I have an important message from my planet, Earth:

SCIENCE IS REAL.

Now please stop killing me with your stupid.

103 davinvalkri  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:20:40pm

re: #98 karmic_inquisitor

No doubt they are experiencing the RINO hellfire!

/ Bauer Off

R...RINOs?! They were Republicans back when all the other nominal "Republicans" were RINOs, when the party had been utterly written off! If any two people are utterly immune from the charge of RINOism, it's Buckley and Goldwater! So why don't we see more of them!?

104 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:20:49pm

OK Lizards! I still can't stop laughing about the story of dinnerjacket is a Jew..
What sh*t is everybody going to shallow tomarrow?
So..
This story is perfect for a song parody...I'm kicking around a few ideas..
My first idea was the Beatles song the Fool on the Hill
Change it to The Jew on the hill..sorta funny in spots...Then I had a horrible thought.. You can't write anything funny about the Jews...They will send the Jewish mafia to your house.. Not to hurt you but steal all your jokes..
I hate that when that happens...
*wink*

105 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:21:04pm

re: #92 Cato the Elder

I don't know who Joe Campbell is. Ted Kacsinski went to college, and withdrew to a cabin in the woods...see how he turned out? so we know a cabin in the woods has a benign effect on individuals.

106 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:22:41pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

I'm not saying it should be illegal. Neither is Gary Bauer, though there are some Dominionists that do say that.


Left out my sarc tag...sorry.

107 Irish Rose  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:23:51pm

Logging back in to ask for your prayers, lizards.
The doc gave me a diagnosis of pneumonia this afternoon... pneumonia on top of asthma really bites, and I'm taking a break from everything until I feel better.

I'll be back on Sunday to repost the prayer list... email me if you'd like anything added.

108 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:24:16pm

re: #88 BignJames

Potato chips that look like Elvis...big sellers.

they told me there was only one.

109 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:25:39pm

re: #92 Cato the Elder

Hoops - for some people, college is not only not necessary, but detrimental. It is in many case just a safe place to lock up a kid until s/he fucks the excess hormones off and drinks away the surplus brain cells.

Joseph Campbell never went. He withdrew to a cabin in the woods and read for many years. An autodidact. Out came one of the most original thinkers of the twentieth century.

I suspect Walter is that type of person.

If you mean Joseph Campbell the mythologist, he did go to college.

While at Dartmouth College he studied biology and mathematics, but decided that he preferred the humanities. He transferred to Columbia University, where he received his B.A. in English literature in 1925 and M.A. in Medieval literature in 1927. Campbell was also an accomplished athlete, receiving awards in track and field events. For a time, he was among the fastest half-mile runners in the world.[3]

110 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:25:52pm

re: #108 Guanxi88

they told me there was only one.


There was only one...at that particular time.

111 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:26:08pm

re: #69 SixDegrees

Maybe I was too concise. I'm not looking for a push poll. Just wondering where we regard the final authority to be. Obviously I'm no skilled pollster either LOL

112 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:26:47pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Gatorade and vitamin C - well, plus the antibiotics that the Doc prescribed. You'll probably cough so much your torso will ache. Good luck with that.

113 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:26:53pm
“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.

What if someone believes passionately that Christians are devils and that God has called on the faithful to destroy them and any other unbelievers? Should such parents be able to have that taught "without someone undoing it?"

Because that is what Mohammed Atta and his associates believed. And, judging from the hole they left in the Pentagon and the Manhattan skyline, they were quite passionate about it.

114 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:27:24pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Take care.

115 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:27:41pm

Time for a center party.

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:27:43pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Go to bed, sweetie.

(in bed)...

117 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:27:47pm

Kee ripes. I just read the Private Thread from the other night. I am blown away.

I was one of those who would jump to the defense too. Wow. I feel sheepish. Sorry folks.

Now I have to go to sleep.

118 lostlakehiker  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:27:59pm
The “crux” of the disagreement, according Rubio, is “whether what a parent teaches their children at home should be mocked and derided and undone at the public school level. It goes to the fundamental core of who is ultimately, primarily responsible for the upbringing of children. Is it your public education system or is it your parents?”

Rubio added, “And for me, personally, I don’t want a school system that teaches kids that what they’re learning at home is wrong.”


Umm, what if the child is learning the wrong times table? Wrong spelling? Wrong history? What if they're told at home that there was no holocaust? Would the school have to back off on all of that if there are parents who believe differently?

Would it matter whether these hypothetical parents were basing their home teachings on the testimony of Goebbels at Nuremburg, or on the statements of Ahmadinejad before the UN?

The schools must teach the truth, as best it is known at the time. Professional historians on questions of history, and scientists on questions of science, must be the arbiters when there is broad disagreement outside the profession about a topic that is settled, professionally.

For topics that aren't even settled within a profession, the majority opinion should be presented as most likely correct, but mention should be made of the fact that a meaningful fraction of the professional community in question has reservations or thinks otherwise.

In all cases, schools should avoid mocking and deriding. Twits who mock and deride the spelling of others are insufferable, all the more so when they're right. But there's a big difference between giving in on the matter and saying "my bad, it's spelled mok and dried like you say", and quietly but firmly standing your ground and saying, well, many people pay little attention to spelling, because life is short and the dictionary is long. But still, here's the dictionary, and sticklers for accuracy spell it "mock and deride".

Teachings at home that collide with scientific fact should be contradicted at school.

119 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:28:27pm

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to how religion should be use, misused or not used in modern society, I'm just pointing out the historical and scientific realities of text criticism.

If I had my way, magic wand... poof... all religion gone.

Well, I agree with you on the purely academic point. Obviously much of the scriptures are highly illiberal and that is just fact - but the real context of this story about Obama's statement concerns how religion is understood in the religious community. And we can't wave a magic wand and make religion 'go poof' ( pun not intended), so I support the promotion of liberal interpretations in that community, therefore I have no dispute with what Obama said. I'd hate to live in a society where all the believers followed interpretations of scripture that were absolutely faithful to the original intentions.

120 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:28:50pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Get well soon!

Hail marys from here.

121 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:29:15pm
“Of course, I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro,” he quickly added.

"I'm just equating them with Satan."

122 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:29:17pm

re: #105 BignJames

I don't know who Joe Campbell is. Ted Kacsinski went to college, and withdrew to a cabin in the woods...see how he turned out? so we know a cabin in the woods has a benign effect on individuals.

Ted was suffering from advanced mental illness and that's why he went to his cabin. The illness preceded the cabin by a long road.

Joseph Campbell was the pre-eminent scholar of mythology in the past century. The cabin actually seems to have been a myth. Someone told me that ages ago and I swallowed it whole, gullible dupe that I am. It was as a graduate student that he turned his back on formal education, it seems, when the hidebound faculty at Columbia thwarted his plans:

On his return from Europe in 1929, Campbell announced to his faculty at Columbia that his time in Europe had broadened his interests and that he wanted to study Sanskrit and Modern Art in addition to Medieval literature. When his advisors did not support this, Campbell decided not to go forward with his plans to earn a doctorate and never returned to a conventional graduate program. He was very insistent, in later life, that he be addressed as Mr. Campbell, not Dr. Campbell.

The cabin thing did work out rather well for Henry David Thoreau, however. On balance I'd say if you're not already crazy a spell in a cabin would probably do us all good.

123 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:30:06pm

re: #109 Shiplord Kirel

Yes, you're right. I just fact-checked my own ass in my #122.

124 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:30:43pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Logging back in to ask for your prayers, lizards.
The doc gave me a diagnosis of pneumonia this afternoon... pneumonia on top of asthma really bites, and I'm taking a break from everything until I feel better.

I'll be back on Sunday to repost the prayer list... email me if you'd like anything added.

Our best to you, Rose. Stay warm and drink lots of fluids. Do they have you on a nebulizer or something.

125 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:31:37pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder

The cabin thing did work out rather well for Henry David Thoreau, however. On balance I'd say if you're not already crazy a spell in a cabin would probably do us all good.

I had something line that in Beantown one year. Had no phone, avoided human contact except for the bare essentials. It is possibly to live as a hermit, even in a city. Good for the soul.

126 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:31:41pm

re: #71 Jimmah

I have a older (1970's) Scofield Bible. I used to look up various translations. The footnotes show the differing translations. Kind of like the perhaps anecdotal "Thou shall not murder", rather than "thou shall not kill". Anyone wanting to go with "strict" interpretation sees the problem in just a few pages. Translation alone has muddied the literalism waters. Uh speaking figuratively. Lets see Aramaic (I think) then Greek then finally English then modern English...

127 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:31:45pm

re: #16 meeshlr

For goodness sake.

What kind of choice am I going to have in the next election -- nanny state give us all your money and we'll take care of everything Democrats versus anti-abortion creationist birther Republicans?

Please, could someone find a sane, rational, intelligent politician?

Modern Whig Party.

128 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:32:30pm

re: #117 Oh no...Sand People!

Kee ripes. I just read the Private Thread from the other night. I am blown away.

I was one of those who would jump to the defense too. Wow. I feel sheepish. Sorry folks.

Ditto.

That thread left me at a loss for words, so I'll borrow yours.

129 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:32:30pm

re: #115 Ojoe

Time for a center party.

I've been hearing that a lot around here and elsewhere (even though where on the political scale said party is said to be needed varies), but does anyone think it's actually possible? The two party system seems very entrenched at the moment.
I know Ross Perot was the latest to make any dent in that system, but I still don't quite understand why. What did he have going for him, and is it repeatable?

130 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:32:46pm

Meanwhile, even after he lost out in the NJ primaries against Corzine, the kook Jeff Boss is running for Congress and still pushing the troofer crapola that the NSA is behind the 9/11 attacks. Nothing but crazy on his site, and nothing but silence from other Democrats pushing him to the sidelines.

131 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:32:56pm

re: #122 Cato the Elder


I wonder if Ted's illness preceded his doctoral studies?

132 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:33:29pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Logging back in to ask for your prayers, lizards.
The doc gave me a diagnosis of pneumonia this afternoon... pneumonia on top of asthma really bites, and I'm taking a break from everything until I feel better.

I'll be back on Sunday to repost the prayer list... email me if you'd like anything added.

I certainly wish you the very best in health.. May you heal quickly..
/One time I had the worst summer cold in the world..I was beyond miserable.
I laid in bed with real time live video feeds of beaches in Hawaii on the laptop.. The soothing sounds of ESPN in the background and popping cold meds with Crown Royale shots...Seemed to work...Let's just say it was the Hoopsters lost weekend..
/Be well

133 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:33:43pm

Fox New shills for Ron Paul and the Gold Standard...
ron paul on fox news10 04 09

134 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:34:31pm

The Politico headline is seriously misleading and the focus is more on the fact that there is nothing but silence from the left on Obama's invocation of G-d and religion, whereas they were up in arms every time Bush did the same.

Fact is that politicians routinely push religious themes and invoke G-d's name at the drop of the hat. Obama is no different. It's just that the response from those who seemingly were most disapproving of such statements are oddly silent now that their guy is in office.

135 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:34:43pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Fox New shills for Ron Paul and the Gold Standard...
ron paul on fox news10 04 09

[Video]

Gold standard just puts the minesters in charge. Back top wampum, says I!

136 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:34:49pm

I just dinged Jimmah twice -- and I liked it.

137 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:35:16pm

re: #130 lawhawk

Meanwhile, even after he lost out in the NJ primaries against Corzine, the kook Jeff Boss is running for Congress and still pushing the troofer crapola that the NSA is behind the 9/11 attacks. Nothing but crazy on his site, and nothing but silence from other Democrats pushing him to the sidelines.

Hopefully he'll suck away some Corzine votes anyway. Contrast the non endorsement of the Dems for the fringe and outre candidates with the Republican zest for jumping on the bandwagon with what amount to third party crazies.

138 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:35:49pm

Best wishes Rose!!! We fight that fight at my home-wife with Asthma, fearing colds, pneumonia and of course the flu. I guess we'll all be after the H1N1 shot or mist...

139 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:35:50pm

re: #136 iceweasel

I just dinged Jimmah twice -- and I liked it.

Thought that was Snotty. - Spaceballs.

140 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:36:27pm

re: #129 cenotaphium

Yes it is possible. The Republicans started out as a 3rd party.

If the Independents, whose number is growing, were to coalesce around a party, it would be viable.

And a center party would make complete hash of the gerrymandering of districts which helps keep incumbents in office and the voters apathetic.

141 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:36:49pm

Fox News shilling for Ron Paul's Foreign policy...
Judge Napolitano on Iran War Rhetoric

142 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:36:49pm

re: #115 Ojoe

Time for a center party.

It's time for the GOP to prove why they deserve the vote of the Center...
The Big Tent crap kind of fell on it's face...The Center controls who get's elected..If it's not the Soccer moms..It's the middle class...What ever..The Center determines who gets elected every time...

143 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:38:03pm

re: #136 iceweasel

Double dinged?

144 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:38:21pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

A significant number of the rightugly-wing talkers have as prominent advertisers gold bullion dealers, and one in particular. Coincidence?

145 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:38:51pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

Double dinged?

Don't bug her right now..She's smoking a cigarette
/

146 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:39:01pm

re: #142 HoosierHoops

GOP - right
DEMS - left

Center? there is no center party.

IMHO

147 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:39:06pm

Here's the background on the Abramoff Bauer ties, in case anyone thinks I'm out of line with the comment way above:

Jack Abramoff is an Orthodox Jew with close ties to Rabbi Lapin/Toward Tradition and movie critic Michael Medved. He was also a supporter of CNP's Tom Delay, whom Delay once called "one of my best friends."

"In July 2002, at the height of the anti-Jena campaign, Bauer and Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a fixture at Christian-right events, founded the American Alliance of Christians and Jews. On the group's board were Dobson, Robertson, Falwell and one Jack Abramoff. Lapin's organization, Toward Tradition, which administered the AACJ, received $25,000 from one of Abramoff's gambling industry clients in 2000; took $75,000 from Abramoff and his clients; and then, upon Abramoff's written instructions, hired the wife of Tony Rudy to the tune of $5,000 a month. Rudy, who was Tom DeLay's deputy chief of staff at the time, later a lobbyist, has been named in Abramoff's guilty plea" [[Link: www.thenation.com...] ]


This comes from an article by Blumenthal

148 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:39:09pm

re: #144 freetoken

A significant number of the rightugly-wing talkers have as prominent advertisers gold bullion dealers, and one in particular. Coincidence?

See, I told you! Wampum, man, the ultimate secure currency.

149 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:39:35pm

re: #144 freetoken

A significant number of the rightugly-wing talkers have as prominent advertisers gold bullion dealers, and one in particular. Coincidence?

Certainly not. You'll see the same ads on Infowars too.

150 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #131 BignJames

I wonder if Ted's illness preceded his doctoral studies?

Interesting question.

While at Harvard (which he entered at the age of 16), Kaczynski volunteered for CIA-sponsored stress experiments:

Students in Murray's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)-sponsored study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.[9] Instead they were subjected to the stress test, which was an extremely stressful and prolonged psychological attack by an anonymous attorney. During the test, students were strapped into a chair and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror. This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study.

Well, yeah. If he was already prone to mental illness, as many extremely bright child-prodigy types are, this certainly can't have helped.

151 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:40:33pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

Double dinged?

Is that what the kids are calling it now?

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:40:54pm

I haven't seen Sharmuta all day.

I'm getting gun-shy of asking...

153 Irish Rose  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:41:22pm

Thanks lizards, you're the best.
Peace out.

154 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:42:00pm

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

She was around earlier this morning.

155 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:42:06pm

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I haven't seen Sharmuta all day.

I'm getting gun-shy of asking...

She was around earlier. She's cool.

156 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:42:34pm

re: #136 iceweasel

I just dinged Jimmah twice -- and I liked it.

Now that's what I call good karma ;)

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:42:47pm

re: #155 iceweasel

She was around earlier. She's SOOO cool.

158 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:42:54pm

re: #142 HoosierHoops

It's time for the GOP to prove why they deserve the vote of the Center...
The Big Tent crap kind of fell on it's face...The Center controls who get's elected..If it's not the Soccer moms..It's the middle class...What ever..The Center determines who gets elected every time...

Exactly. It really isn't complicated in spite of what the talking heads push.

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:43:28pm

re: #153 Irish Rose

Thanks lizards, you're the best.
Peace out.

bye.

UNPLUG YOUR COMPUTER DAMMIT!

160 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:45:36pm

I see Charles has found a new dinger in "Thanatoaster".

hah... "toast"...

161 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:45:51pm

re: #146 Ojoe

GOP - right
DEMS - left

Center? there is no center party.

IMHO

Don't need a center party...No hassles with organizing, Party stuff, Ad's and Pub..
The Middle controls everything in voting..We look at the most sane person we can put up with.. Or Super Star (cough..O )
And we vote for them.. Indiana was so lusted after thet Hillary and Obama was here constantly during the Primaries.. Obama even spoke at our local High School when Ben Davis had to cancel at the last minute...
Why make a party when really we control elections?

162 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:46:19pm

re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I haven't seen Sharmuta all day.

I'm getting gun-shy of asking...

she cool bro

163 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:47:08pm

re: #160 freetoken

I see Charles has found a new dinger in "Thanatoaster".

hah... "toast"...

Thanatoaster

FIRE IN THE DISCO!
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 25, 2005 at 4:17 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 20
No. of links posted: 0

164 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:47:19pm

re: #162 HoosierHoops

I'm holding a [finger] for her.

165 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:47:38pm

What drives compulsive down-dingers, who go and down ding every thread? Is it twitchy nerves in the index finger?

166 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:48:15pm

re: #156 Jimmah

Now that's what I call good karma ;)


You know what karma is...you get what you give. ;)

167 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:48:58pm

re: #117 Oh no...Sand People!

Kee ripes. I just read the Private Thread from the other night. I am blown away.

I was one of those who would jump to the defense too. Wow. I feel sheepish. Sorry folks.

Now I have to go to sleep.

Well I hadn't even looked at the thread until you just mentioned it.

Shocking. And really disappointing. I will abide by comment 219. Both surreal and loathsome at the same time. Iceweasel - I concede.

168 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:49:06pm

re: #165 freetoken

What drives compulsive down-dingers, who go and down ding every thread? Is it twitchy nerves in the index finger?

There's an App for that..

169 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:49:23pm

re: #165 freetoken

What drives compulsive down-dingers, who go and down ding every thread? Is it twitchy nerves in the index finger?

Dingium tremens or the DTs.

//

170 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:49:46pm

Thanatoaster needs daddy's attention.

171 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:50:37pm
“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.

There are parents that believe all sorts of demonstrably false, equally asinine bullshit, and if it is not the job of an institution of education to undo these things, I don't know what is.

172 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:51:00pm

Speaking of compulsions, I see that the last AGW thread is still alive...

Who knew science could be so fun?

173 borgcube  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:52:14pm

Here I go again, forced to weigh the nuttiness on some internalized scale. Why do we jump all over someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old but have no problem with that same person believing in other equally absurd nonsense, like Jesus rising from the dead? It's all the same gobbledygook.

I'm surprised that people are still surprised by any of it. Once you buy into the whole Jesus thang, creationism is easy to swallow, and in the reverse order for that matter.

Like it or not, I'm forced to give all of them a pass at the voting booth as the dancing with snakes crowd unfortunately shares my political views on other corporeal issues ten to one over the other crowd who wants to force me to worship at the altar of government.

Not a great choice, but it's still an easy one for me at this point. I hold my nose and vote for the wacko who is going to be kindest to my pocketbook and who defends the Constitution. If he wants to roll around on the floor mumbling ooga booga thinking he is speaking some dead language but keeps government out of my life, I'll vote for him each and every time.

174 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:53:02pm

re: #170 freetoken

Thanatoaster needs daddy's attention.

Holy cow! I just caught on.

175 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:53:44pm

re: #140 Ojoe

Yes it is possible. The Republicans started out as a 3rd party.

If the Independents, whose number is growing, were to coalesce around a party, it would be viable.

And a center party would make complete hash of the gerrymandering of districts which helps keep incumbents in office and the voters apathetic.

Yes, it's no doubt possible, but is it probable is what I'm wondering (and should have wrote). Is time better spent working for a third party or reforming the existing ones?

I get the impression that the stakes are increasingly higher for any new party wanting to make its way onto the scene. The amount of money spent on campaigning, for instance, seems to be increasing all the time - presumably making it increasingly hard for a third party to get the money it needs to get heard?

Also, what type of third party is needed seems to be a very varied opinion - I've heard "a true conservative" party and "libertarian" party (and of course center party) thrown about. To assume the independents would flock to a third party is sort of shot down by the disparity in the third party suggestions offered, isn't it?

I'm sure a third party would be beneficial to shaking things up - as you suggest. Living in a country with 7 viable parties, I kind of like having a sliding scale and the parties elbowing each other in order to stand out. It's not the whole truth by a long shot, and there's plenty of bloc politics to go around, but I can't help thinking I'd feel pretty powerless were it only the two blocs constantly beating on each other.

176 meeshlr  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:54:13pm

re: #173 borgcube


Not a great choice, but it's still an easy one for me at this point. I hold my nose and vote for the wacko who is going to be kindest to my pocketbook and who defends the Constitution. If he wants to roll around on the floor mumbling ooga booga thinking he is speaking some dead language but keeps government out of my life, I'll vote for him each and every time.

What if that wacko wants to impose his ooga booga on your children in government funded public schools?

177 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:54:46pm

re: #161 HoosierHoops

Why make a party when really we control elections?

Because, with the primaries and the conventions, the fringe elements present the center with non-center candidates, and thus the country is alternatively governed by leftists and rightists.

After a few decades of this people are either apathetic or shouting at each other.

178 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:55:00pm

re: #174 rwmofo

Holy cow! I just caught on.

I'm dreaming of a new Flouncer
Just like the kind I used to know
With the hate mails flying
And Children crying...

179 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:55:18pm

re: #167 karmic_inquisitor

Well I hadn't even looked at the thread until you just mentioned it.

Shocking. And really disappointing. I will abide by comment 219. Both surreal and loathsome at the same time. Iceweasel - I concede.

Dude-- no prob. Some things are easier for a newer person to spot, you know?
Now you know why I kept suggesting people check my archives if they wanted details, too.

180 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:56:34pm

re: #173 borgcube

Here I go again, forced to weigh the nuttiness on some internalized scale. Why do we jump all over someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old but have no problem with that same person believing in other equally absurd nonsense, like Jesus rising from the dead? It's all the same gobbledygook.

Not by a long shot.

If you really think that the extremist fringe of creationism, constantly pushing for control over education (and policy), is the same as what people personally hold to be true.. you're not paying attention at all.

181 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:56:46pm

re: #173 borgcube

The Resurrection & 6000 years are not equivalent at all.

IMHO

182 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:57:55pm

re: #173 borgcube

Here I go again, forced to weigh the nuttiness on some internalized scale. Why do we jump all over someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old but have no problem with that same person believing in other equally absurd nonsense, like Jesus rising from the dead? It's all the same gobbledygook.

I'm surprised that people are still surprised by any of it. Once you buy into the whole Jesus thang, creationism is easy to swallow, and in the reverse order for that matter.

Like it or not, I'm forced to give all of them a pass at the voting booth as the dancing with snakes crowd unfortunately shares my political views on other corporeal issues ten to one over the other crowd who wants to force me to worship at the altar of government.

Not a great choice, but it's still an easy one for me at this point. I hold my nose and vote for the wacko who is going to be kindest to my pocketbook and who defends the Constitution. If he wants to roll around on the floor mumbling ooga booga thinking he is speaking some dead language but keeps government out of my life, I'll vote for him each and every time.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there, it looks to me.

There are many folks right here at LGF who are people of faith, and who have no problem whatsoever reconciling their faith with their understanding and acceptance of science.

I don't care what you think is gobbledy-gook.
Might be time, though, to think about how you might discuss things here without going off and insulting a bunch of folks here.

183 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:58:23pm

re: #179 iceweasel

Dude-- no prob. Some things are easier for a newer person to spot, you know?
Now you know why I kept suggesting people check my archives if they wanted details, too.


I have 2 rules..Never touch a woman's purse or check her Archives.

184 Bagua  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:58:29pm

re: #172 freetoken

Speaking of compulsions, I see that the last AGW thread is still alive...

Who knew science could be so fun?

We really do need to speak to a doctor about this...

185 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:58:30pm

re: #178 HoosierHoops

Thanatoaster just down-dinged Megan Fox and a bowl of ice cream.

186 jill e  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:58:58pm

If you Google Crist, it appears he's running for the Senate.

187 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 4:59:53pm

re: #175 cenotaphium

Modernity is built upon, among other things, by the use of the scientific method. The age of the earth and our biological predecessors can be determined using said scientific method. However, for a one-off "miracle" (defined as a non-repeatable event that is not expected in the physical world) which is apparently supposed to be taken on faith, the scientific method doesn't really apply.

188 jeremy0114  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:00:02pm

re: #173 borgcube

I absolutely agree...

Creationism is one small step down the stairs from resurrection. If science is the standard at which we judge wackiness in religion.

The only kind of creationism in the classroom I want to see is basicially a big asterisk at the beginning of the evolution series that states 'If this is not what you believe, take it up with your pastor/church/parents and get the information they would like to you have.' Besides that, quit whining and learn!!

I tell you this business is going to change me from a constant lurker to a constant poster!

189 borgcube  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:00:31pm

re: #176 meeshlr

Seems like that's the choice nowadays. It's either ooga booga or the state. I prefer neither. No kids here. However, if I did have any, this atheist would have them enrolled in private schools, religious or otherwise before I would subject them to the current public system.

190 theheat  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:00:33pm

Rove is pushing the sausage doctrine of politics. We aren't supposed to care what goes in it, long as GOP is stamped on the label. Never mind the creationists, nirthers, Birchers, outrageous liars, and racists - as long as they're brandishing the GOP label, he wants them to win.

I can't be too surprised about this. After all, Florida is home to Ave Maria and Kathryn Harris. If you asked Rove if he wanted Jindal and Rick Perry to win their respective elections, I'm sure he'd give them a glowing recommendation as long as they defeated Democrats.

I've never found Rove admirable or particularly credible. To me, he always looks like Limbaugh's dowdier long lost brother. The similarities don't necessarily end there.

191 freetoken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:00:42pm

re: #185 rwmofo

Evil evil Megan...

192 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:01:14pm

re: #183 HoosierHoops

I have 2 rules..Never touch a woman's purse or check her Archives.

Rule 3: Answer to "How do I look" is always "Great!"

193 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:02:38pm

The Monkey Song

2012 GOP campaign anthem?

194 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:02:45pm

re: #167 karmic_inquisitor

Well I hadn't even looked at the thread until you just mentioned it.

Shocking. And really disappointing. I will abide by comment 219. Both surreal and loathsome at the same time. Iceweasel - I concede.

Just paid a visit there myself...wow.

195 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:02:50pm

re: #161 HoosierHoops

Indiana was so lusted after thet Hillary and Obama was here constantly during the Primaries..

This is one thing I've never quite grasped about your political system.. I understand that it's interesting to live in a swing state, to have a high political presence and where your vote matters a great deal. But to live in a state which is almost assuredly going one way and your vote won't matter as much - that must suck immensly.
I understand that the electoral system is there for a reason, to overcome some of the problems with a majority rule, but what is (or can be) done to prevent voter apathy in the "locked" states?

196 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:03:27pm

re: #185 rwmofo

Thanatoaster just down-dinged Megan Fox and a bowl of ice cream.

Nooo!!!
Rips of shirt in Anger! Thou Shalt not downding Megan!
/Another argument for Capitol punishment
//She tweeted about her Salad for lunch today...
*wink*

197 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:03:48pm

re: #173 borgcube

Here I go again, forced to weigh the nuttiness on some internalized scale. Why do we jump all over someone who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old but have no problem with that same person believing in other equally absurd nonsense, like Jesus rising from the dead? It's all the same gobbledygook.

I'm surprised that people are still surprised by any of it. Once you buy into the whole Jesus thang, creationism is easy to swallow, and in the reverse order for that matter.

Like it or not, I'm forced to give all of them a pass at the voting booth as the dancing with snakes crowd unfortunately shares my political views on other corporeal issues ten to one over the other crowd who wants to force me to worship at the altar of government.

Not a great choice, but it's still an easy one for me at this point. I hold my nose and vote for the wacko who is going to be kindest to my pocketbook and who defends the Constitution. If he wants to roll around on the floor mumbling ooga booga thinking he is speaking some dead language but keeps government out of my life, I'll vote for him each and every time.

It has been covered. Kierkegaard. A rational person of faith will admit that faith is intrinsically irrational. A leap of faith is a willing act that defies rationality.

What is scary are those bent on trying to redefine rational to conform to a belief system. They do the greatest harm.

198 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:05:07pm

re: #166 iceweasel

You know what karma is...you get what you give. ;)

The Woodentops - not the one I was looking for but still kinda apt ;-)

"...do it once, do it twice, every single time makes it twice as nice"

199 borgcube  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:06:26pm

re: #182 reine.de.tout

But, it's OK to insult those who think the Earth is 6000 years old? What's the difference? They're both matters of pure faith, although admittedly the latter tries to sugarcoat it with scientific mumbo jumbo. But I've heard the same stuff from people proselytizing mainstream Christianity too.

201 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:07:51pm
“And there are parents that passionately believe in this and they should be given the opportunity to teach that to their children without someone undoing it,” Rubio said.

"Without someone undoing it?" I wonder what that means.
Rubio may a problem with free speech if he doesn't want to allow the possibility of minds being changed.

202 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:08:58pm

re: #179 iceweasel

Dude-- no prob. Some things are easier for a newer person to spot, you know?
Now you know why I kept suggesting people check my archives if they wanted details, too.

You are both kind and perceptive.

203 theheat  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:09:03pm

re: #173 borgcube

Like it or not, I'm forced to give all of them a pass at the voting booth as the dancing with snakes crowd unfortunately shares my political views on other corporeal issues ten to one over the other crowd who wants to force me to worship at the altar of government.

They're forcing their alter of worship on other people, like public school students. You cool with that, too? Is it okay knowing a lot of these people are pushing their crazy religious ideas and conspiracy theories into the mainstream, and trying to shape laws to embrace these ideologies?

I've decided to reject them without fail, and that's how I vote. Your mileage may vary.

204 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:09:04pm

may have a problem with free specch...

205 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:09:45pm

re: #199 borgcube

But, it's OK to insult those who think the Earth is 6000 years old? What's the difference? They're both matters of pure faith, although admittedly the latter tries to sugarcoat it with scientific mumbo jumbo. But I've heard the same stuff from people proselytizing mainstream Christianity too.

Not really

There is evidence that disproves the 6,000 year old "faith"

There is no "evidence" that disproves Christ lived

(and yes, I know you can't prove a negative and as of this moment there is not positive evidence either. But at one point in time man had faith thatb the sun revolved around the earth

206 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:09:46pm

re: #201 jaunte

"Without someone undoing it?" I wonder what that means.
Rubio may a problem with free speech if he doesn't want to allow the possibility of minds being changed.

People with a problem with free speech typically have a problem with what it encourages: freedom of thought.

The entire purpose of constraining speech is to control thought.

207 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:09:51pm

re: #199 borgcube

Anyone that thinks the Earth is really 6000 years old deserves to be mocked...

208 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:10:00pm

re: #201 jaunte

"Without someone undoing it?" I wonder what that means.
Rubio may a problem with free speech if he doesn't want to allow the possibility of minds being changed.

Irony is that most kids know when they are having crap shoved down their throats and act to negate it.

209 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:10:11pm

The difference between religion and creationism is this: To believe in things that can't be proved is faith. To disbelieve in things that have been proven is obstinance.

210 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:10:59pm

re: #209 The Sanity Inspector

The difference between religion and creationism is this: To believe in things that can't be proved is faith. To disbelieve in things that have been proven is obstinance.

You earned your nic with that one.

211 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:11:05pm

re: #207 HoosierHoops

Anyone that thinks the Earth is really 6000 years old deserves to be mocked...

It's 6013 years old. Sheesh. I mock thee!

212 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:11:09pm

re: #209 The Sanity Inspector

gmta and better phrased than my #205

213 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:11:16pm

re: #199 borgcube

But, it's OK to insult those who think the Earth is 6000 years old? What's the difference? They're both matters of pure faith, although admittedly the latter tries to sugarcoat it with scientific mumbo jumbo. But I've heard the same stuff from people proselytizing mainstream Christianity too.

I don't understand religion very well myself. But it seems pretty obvious that there's a huge difference between someone willing to believe a deity in mortal guise rose from the dead and (by taking up the cause of creationism) outright rejecting the vast majority of the science modern knowledge is based upon.

214 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:11:17pm

re: #173 borgcube
I must say that including mainstream Christianity in your post as ' absurd ' offends me greatly, and I doubt that I am alone. Nor do I believe in an earth where dinosaurs roamed with little cavechildren... the extreme creationism ( I cringe at the term, because of the connotation it now has) is not something I was ever taught or asked to believe as a Christian.

215 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:13:15pm

re: #210 karmic_inquisitor

You earned your nic with that one.

>:^D

216 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:14:11pm

"I'm for toleration, and for drinking at an inn,"

—Captain Stratton.

Be Back Later.

217 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:14:16pm

re: #201 jaunte

"Without someone undoing it?" I wonder what that means.
Rubio may a problem with free speech if he doesn't want to allow the possibility of minds being changed.

They want to put their kids in a cultural bubble, basically. A culture of ignorance of course.

218 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:14:50pm

Respectfully, just to weigh in again, on the entire religion vs. science meme and the entire atheist vs. faith meme...

It saddens me to see the divisions forming in the Lizard community over this that I see.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying critical thinking skills to the application of faith. In fact, I would argue that it is the abuses of the "faithful" that give faith the bad name it has in the modern world.

If the point of a faith, boiled down to what can be said on one foot, is do not do to others what would be hateful to you if done to you, and this is shockingly obvious to anyone who has heard the message, gets nullified by cruel or insensitive or just stupid actions of the faithful, it can only make faith itself look pointless hypocritical and cruel.

One need only look at the rivers of blood spilled in the name of a G-d of love and peace to feel abused by the very notion.

This is actually the entire point of the second commandment. Do not use the Lord's name in vain, does not mean don't cuss or G-d will smack you. What it says is do not carry G-d's name falsely. What that means is, if you talk the talk, you must walk the walk, otherwise you give the whole enterprise a bad name. There are unfortunately many who never quite got that point. I make no apologies for them. In fact I detest them because they make me, and all the good things I have gotten from faith, look medieval by association.

One deeper point that I am bringing is that there are a lot of decent and thoughtful people of faith who are not rabid attack dogs. They are, in terms of repressing idiocy and hypocrisy, actually the natural allies of many who reject faith for the excesses committed falsely in its name. People like that have the most to lose from the stupidity and hatefulness of fanatics.
We also know that what we hold dear is poisoned by them.

Another deeper point that I am bringing is that of course science and faith need not be at odds. They are separate things that address separate issues. The only time there is an issue is if blind faith in extra worldly things causes one to reject real facts - or worse, real suffering in the hear and now.

So that said, you can think that he beliefs of the faithful are silly. There is no evidence after all. However, that is not the end of the discussion. There was once no evidence for electrons either. Yet they turned out to be real. There is no equation that can be written for falling in love - and the thought of such a thing actually fills me with horror. There is no quantification for the nobility of the human spirit. If you feel tempted to go completely logical positivist, and hence live in a universe that is solely mechanical, you may be right. When you kiss that girl, all it is may be just patterns lighting up in your brain in a predetermined fashion. I believe that the kiss is a bit more real than that.

Since you can not disprove me, which universe do you think is better?

219 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:15:26pm

re: #211 BigPapa

It's 6013 years old. Sheesh. I mock thee!

LOL
You know I never liked the nuns in School.. But they didn't put up with no crap with science...
You have no idea when the tests were about the Gas Laws that I wanted to write...' It's a Miracle!
It's not fair...
/'

220 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:17:11pm
221 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:18:01pm

re: #217 Jimmah

They want to put their kids in a cultural bubble, basically. A culture of ignorance of course.

Here in Texas it's startling to see how many of the conservative political activists on the State Board of Education home school their own children.
Their interest is really more in controlling other people's children.

222 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:18:16pm

Newsbusters has a post up about Chris Matthews' show, on which he calls out the large number of Republicans who celebrated and cheered when America's Olympic bid was rejected.

They don't even bother to refute anything. They just post the video and the transcript as if there's something outrageous about what Matthews said, as if it was perfectly normal for Rush Limbaugh to gloat over the loss.

But Matthews was completely on target this time. The right wing's celebration of America losing was disgusting. A total disgrace.

223 borgcube  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:20:05pm

re: #197 karmic_inquisitor

Doesn't that pretty much sum up modern day politics? I don't see any difference in these hard nosed creationists and their absolutist counterparts on the other end of the political ruler. Except for one thing for me personally, I tend to agree with the religious nutters on so much more than I do with the secular nutters. It takes some guts to even admit that.

What's a "conservative" atheist to do?

224 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:21:43pm

re: #222 Charles

Newsbusters has a post up about Chris Matthews' show, on which he calls out the large number of Republicans who celebrated and cheered when America's Olympic bid was rejected.

They don't even bother to refute anything. They just post the video and the transcript as if there's something outrageous about what Matthews said, as if it was perfectly normal for Rush Limbaugh to gloat over the loss.

But Matthews was completely on target this time. The right wing's celebration of America losing was disgusting. A total disgrace.

It's ok. I'm not worried about Obama's second term ensured by these crazies because we are all going to die in teh Mayan Apocalypse

//
//
// do I really need these

225 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:22:29pm

re: #223 borgcube

What's a "conservative" atheist to do?

A hell of a lot of lobbying to be noticed.

226 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:23:43pm

And since I didn't post the usual warning, that video I linked above is made by total whack jobs

227 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:23:49pm

re: #222 Charles

Slate had a piece today...Democrats Love America more than Republicans..
Generally it's not viewed well to root against America...
Disgusting...Remember when people were rooting against Obama's Financial policies 6 months ago.. If America went under and just crashed and burned..Great!...Why they were fricking gleeful over the prospect...
Disgusting...

228 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:23:59pm

re: #224 Thanos

Holding envelope to side of head Karnak style, I'm thinking before looking the answer is ' What is the trailer for the movie 2012 that has saturated the airwaves for the past two weeks...'

229 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:24:24pm

As for "The Architect" he is nothing about ideology and everything about winning elections.

As for the rest of it:

Seems that if you are an R you fear the fundies. Crist, Rubio, whatever. One is a waffler, the other a panderer.
"Asked if he believe in evolution, Crist said, “I believe in a lot of things. We should have the freedom to have a good exchange of ideas.”
But is legislation needed to guarantee that exchange? “I’m not so sure,” Crist said." - Pushing Rope

Hard to believe that a bunch of nuts have control of the Party, but they do obviously. Sick shit.

230 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:25:01pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Okay, that settles it. Slate, Maddow, and now Chris Matthews...
that tingle in my leg is telling me that Republicans must hate America.
///

231 TheRealThing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:25:42pm

Many wise ones in my family said be careful of discussing religion, politics and sex with people you do not know well. It is quite difficult to find a safe point to enter the threads for some raised like many of us new ones.

232 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:25:49pm

re: #228 tradewind

Nope, JC was better than you at Karnak.

233 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:27:03pm

re: #230 tradewind

Okay, that settles it. Slate, Maddow, and now Chris Matthews...
that tingle in my leg is telling me that Republicans must hate AmericaChicago.
///


It's a provencial thing.

234 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:27:12pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Slate had a piece today...Democrats Love America more than Republicans..
Generally it's not viewed well to root against America...
Disgusting...Remember when people were rooting against Obama's Financial policies 6 months ago.. If America went under and just crashed and burned..Great!...Why they were fricking gleeful over the prospect...
Disgusting...

It's Slate. They're one step below Salon, imo.

235 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:27:40pm

re: #221 jaunte

Here in Texas it's startling to see how many of the conservative political activists on the State Board of Education home school their own children.
Their interest is really more in controlling other people's children.

As is the entire Wedge Strategy.

236 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:27:52pm

re: #222 Charles

"MATTHEWS: Well there they are clapping. In fact we missed a clapping scene there. Continued in that line, they seem to be enjoying the news that Obama, the President and Chicago and the United States had failed in its Olympic bid to Rio De Janeiro. Anyway a Weekly Standard blog, that's the right wing or neo-con Weekly Standard"

Any guess as to why Matthews refers to the Weekly Standard this way?

237 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:00pm

re: #230 tradewind

Okay, that settles it. Slate, Maddow, and now Chris Matthews...
that tingle in my leg is telling me that Republicans must hate America.
///

I guess you'd be happier if the articles were from World Nut Daily and Newsmax.

238 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:06pm

re: #80 davinvalkri

re: #78 Charles

That was not the first time Derbyshire has advocated taking the right to vote away from women. I think he's serious about it, although he's also smart enough to realize it will never happen.

...huh. Never saw that before. Oh dear...

Good grief. I thought Derbyshire was one of the sane ones.

Are conservative pundits trying to out-extreme each other to get attention? Perhaps that's a consequence of communications technology. Maybe political consumers are so overstimulated that sanity doesn't sell.

239 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:35pm

re: #235 reine.de.tout

As is the entire Wedge Strategy.

I have my own way of dealing with the DI and its ilk. I call it the Wedgie Strategy.

240 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:42pm

re: #236 rwmofo

"MATTHEWS: Well there they are clapping. In fact we missed a clapping scene there. Continued in that line, they seem to be enjoying the news that Obama, the President and Chicago and the United States had failed in its Olympic bid to Rio De Janeiro. Anyway a Weekly Standard blog, that's the right wing or neo-con Weekly Standard"

Any guess as to why Matthews refers to the Weekly Standard this way?

Because they DID clap and cheer. They posted about it at their blog, then edited the post to remove the part about the cheers.

241 KronoGhazi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:44pm

re: #224 Thanos

...we are all going to die in teh Mayan Apocalypse Mayn Apox-Kalipses

Come on, get in character!

242 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:28:54pm

re: #223 borgcube

What's a "conservative" atheist to do?

Stick with rational. It will see us through.

There is a rational means to regulate. There is a rational means to expand an economy. There is a rational way to fight a global war against religious fanatics. And a rational populous doesn't need a paternalistic state intervening in personal decisions and choices.

The big tent can be resurrected (heh) if the religious can be guaranteed their right to worship while understanding that such does not translate to faith based policy making. It is a formula that the Founders went with when they ratified the bill of rights.

243 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:29:35pm

re: #236 rwmofo

Maybe because of Irving Kristol:
[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

244 The Curmudgeon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:29:40pm

re: #25 Charles

Good post, Charles! For months I thought I had Rubio's creationism as my own issue, but now you've really publicized it. When I get around to posting a catch-up article at my place, you'll get the deserved hat tip.

245 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:30:15pm

re: #240 Charles

Because they DID clap and cheer. They posted about it at their blog, then edited the post to remove the part about the cheers.

I was asking why Matthews refers to The Weekly Standard as "Neo-con?"

246 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:30:33pm

re: #199 borgcube

But, it's OK to insult those who think the Earth is 6000 years old? What's the difference? They're both matters of pure faith, although admittedly the latter tries to sugarcoat it with scientific mumbo jumbo. But I've heard the same stuff from people proselytizing mainstream Christianity too.

Look - you do what you want.
I am personally not in the habit of insulting anybody.
I can figure out how to read about and discuss the FACTS of the age of the earth and other scientific knowledge, knowing that the facts refute any claim that the earth is 6000 years old, without insulting people.

If you want to come in here and insult those of us here who believe "gobbledy-gook" as a matter of faith (not science), you go right ahead.

247 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:30:47pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

Updinged because I appreciated the civil tone and gentle sentiment.

However..

If you feel tempted to go completely logical positivist, and hence live in a universe that is solely mechanical, you may be right. When you kiss that girl, all it is may be just patterns lighting up in your brain in a predetermined fashion. I believe that the kiss is a bit more real than that.

Since you can not disprove me, which universe do you think is better?

Things like this bug the hell out of me. It's like emotional blackmail. "Do you want to live in a universe where a kiss is something more than electrons in your brain"? Well, yeah. I'd like to live in a universe where I was a unique individual of limitless potential with a destiny too.
I don't think that is the case, but that doesn't mean I think life is pointless or somehow less colourful. The "self" may be nothing more than a construct of the biology of the brain, and I have no reason to think otherwise, but why would that affect how "real" I am?
If atheists are smeared as being smug about having some superior knowledge, religious people are sure quick to be smug about having a "better" and more "nice" outlook on life.

248 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:31:14pm

re: #245 rwmofo

I was asking why Matthews refers to The Weekly Standard as "Neo-con?"

Because it's Bill Kristol's publication. "Neo-con" is a perfectly apt description.

249 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:32:11pm

re: #243 jaunte

That answers it. I thought Matthews was using this in the pejorative sense.

250 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:32:15pm

Crist will win hands down. It won't even be a race. I guarantee.

I always tell folks to keep an eye on Charlie Crist. He's a moderate Republican. He's well liked here in Florida, even among Democrats. I haven't agreed with him on everything. His solution to lower property taxes wasn't so great. I think there's a good chance to see him making a presidential bid in the future tho.

Extremely pro-Israel. He visited Israel within the first 100 days as Gov and made some trade agreements between FL and Israel in the millions of $.

My only sorrow is that he will be battling Congressman Kendrick Meek(D). Congressman Meek is currently my representative and I adore this man. He's a great guy, a great Democrat. Also fiercely pro-Israel. Here's his campaign page.

He took his seat from his mother, Carrie Meek, another fabulous woman. First Black female elected to the FL Senate. Her office twice helped me out of jams, once with the P.O. and another when I never received my tax returns.

Anyway, I'll be very sad to see Kendrick go as my rep since I have doubts he will ultimately win the senate seat. Crist is wildly popular. Meek, not so much. We'll see.

251 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:32:19pm
252 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:33:21pm

re: #248 Charles

Because it's Bill Kristol's publication. "Neo-con" is a perfectly apt description.

OK. I read the link from Jaunte and this clears it up.

253 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:34:23pm

re: #234 acwgusa

It's Slate. They're one step below Salon, imo.

Cripes. I cannot seem to make any intelligible comments today. When Charles dings me down twice in one day, it's time for me to cash out my IRA, and buy a clue.

254 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:35:44pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

See also: Joe Scarborough: Republicans 'Have Gone Off The Deep End' In Olympic Criticism (video)

Mike Gallagher had a similar revelation this morning on his show, after 1st (last week when it originally happened) was saddened for Chicago, but offered it as testament that Obama couldn't pull off the 'change' of anti US world opinion he partially ran on

255 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:36:34pm

Upon thinking about conservapedia and ID and anti AGW and the birthers and the truthers and the deathers etc... etc... It starts becoming obvious that the real issue is that we have a group of people who sit in a large whispering circle and feel that the truth is what they decide it is. If something does not fit - whatever it is - they will change the thing or reject it until everything fits neatly no matter what.

It is the worst sort of self sustaining, self reinforcing mob delusion. If you start from the basis that there is absolutely no truth save the approved truth and that all else must be a lie... you will eventually become paranoid, bitter and angry if only because it starts seeming that everyone else is always lying to you. Of course, the thing to do at that point is seek the shelter of like minded delusional individuals.

Then you have reinforcement always telling you that no, you are not crazy - it's them who are crazy, and evil. You have the reinforcement that the bite sized world you have constructed is real and that you are in control. Of course from that comes the arrogance to re write the Bible, to deny science and to justify violence to preserve the "truths" of the group.

The far right has become a sort of cult. Particularly the home schooled, never met anyone who didn't think in an approved manner sort. The only way to defeat this of course is to expose these people to the real world and to new ideas and real evidence based thinking. Of course, they have as an article of faith that such things are evil and then they lose the support of their herd. In the end the disease is designed to attack the cure.

I am not certain how we will overcome this growing pollution in our national culture.

The issue I have with Rove of course is not that he believes any of that. Nope, he is the cynical "mastermind" who sees an angle in manipulating it. In that sense he is even worse.

256 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:38:39pm

re: #237 Charles
Don't read either one of those. Just because I don't rely on left-leaning sources like Slate, which appears to believe itself too clever by half compared to the rubes in the rest of the online world, doesn't mean I have an affinity for right-wing nut sources.

257 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:38:59pm

re: #245 rwmofo

I was asking why Matthews refers to The Weekly Standard as "Neo-con?"

Because they are johhny come lately's to conservatism?

Me, I'm an old school conservative, not paleo, but old school. The kind who backed the civil rights movement and groaned when dixiecrats started coming into the party. I don't think the rapture is going to be tomorrow because I'm atheist, so I think we ought to care about the future and science. I think the best way to beat the rest of the commie states in this century is to trade them into submission. I like individual rights, limited and circumscribed government, but I'm not such a loon as to throw the baby out with the bathwater and call all government bad or evil. I like truth, not hysteria, no matter whose purpose the hysteria might serve.

258 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:39:39pm

James Taranto put it best in his Best of the Web column today:

So, in case you're keeping score at home:
Rooting for terrorists who wantonly murder women and children to beat America in a war: the highest form of patriotism.
Rooting for Rio to get the Olympics: treason.

259 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:40:30pm

re: #255 LudwigVanQuixote

The issue I have with Rove of course is not that he believes any of that. Nope, he is the cynical "mastermind" who sees an angle in manipulating it. In that sense he is even worse.

I don't know if Karl Rove is a fundamentalist, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he built up the Republican Party by forging alliances with the religious right. I suspect he must be a fundamentalist, because at this point he's putting money behind candidates like Rubio even though he's not in a leadership position with the GOP any more.

Or maybe he is. He's ... Rove, after all.

260 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:40:31pm

re: #257 Thanos

Neo-con is often code for 'Zionist ' in the liberal blogosphere.

261 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:41:34pm

re: #260 tradewind

Neo-con is often code for 'Zionist ' in the liberal blogosphere.

That too

262 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:42:13pm

James Carville's most honest on-camera moment:
' Where's our Karl Rove, dammit!' , uttered in frustration sometimes during the 2004 campaign.

263 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:42:33pm

re: #247 cenotaphium

Updinged because I appreciated the civil tone and gentle sentiment.

However..

Things like this bug the hell out of me. It's like emotional blackmail. "Do you want to live in a universe where a kiss is something more than electrons in your brain"? Well, yeah. I'd like to live in a universe where I was a unique individual of limitless potential with a destiny too.
I don't think that is the case, but that doesn't mean I think life is pointless or somehow less colourful. The "self" may be nothing more than a construct of the biology of the brain, and I have no reason to think otherwise, but why would that affect how "real" I am?
If atheists are smeared as being smug about having some superior knowledge, religious people are sure quick to be smug about having a "better" and more "nice" outlook on life.

NO not so. The entire point of faith is that it is something that you feel. You can not prove it. There is no measurement to make.

I am not smearing anyone. I am saying up and up, that if you want a full blown logical positivist vs. other philosophy debate, at the end of the day, you can only go round and round in circles without proving anything. Philosophical debates are ways to make your worldview at least consistent and not obviously false. However, one always chooses the philosophy that feels right and argues that.

So if you feel feel that the right picture is that all kissing that girl is, all it is, is a molecular and bio-chemical response in a nervous network, so be it. But don't pretend that was what you decided before, not based on evidence, but rather your own disposition, and are now arguing that view to the best of your abilities. If someone else takes a different paradigm, then they do the exact same thing. There is nothing wrong with either party doing so. Just don't kid yourself about the role that emotion plays in such discussions.

264 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:42:56pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

Mike Gallagher had a similar revelation this morning on his show, after 1st (last week when it originally happened) was saddened for Chicago, but offered it as testament that Obama couldn't pull off the 'change' of anti US world opinion he partially ran on

Ironic considering a new poll of nations now shows the US is the most admired country globaly.

265 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:43:55pm

re: #264 Conservative Moonbat

Ironic considering a new poll of nations now shows the US is the most admired country globaly.

The talking point that it shows the rest of the world still hates America is how the right wing is trying to deflect attention away from their disgraceful celebrations.

266 sagehen  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:44:02pm

re: #199 borgcube

But, it's OK to insult those who think the Earth is 6000 years old? What's the difference? They're both matters of pure faith, although admittedly the latter tries to sugarcoat it with scientific mumbo jumbo. But I've heard the same stuff from people proselytizing mainstream Christianity too.


There's a difference between faithfully believing in something for which there's no evidence, or faithfully believing in something for which there's mountains of counter-evidence.

One is more deserving of ridicule than the other.

267 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:44:14pm

re: #260 tradewind

Neo-con is often code for 'Zionist ' in the liberal blogosphere.

That's what I assumed Matthews' intent was, but if Irving Kristol described himself this way, Matthews appears to have an out.

268 RealismRox  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:44:43pm

re: #259 Charles

Hitchens says Rove is an athiest. Your text to link...

269 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:44:51pm

re: #259 Charles

I don't know if Karl Rove is a fundamentalist, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he built up the Republican Party by forging alliances with the religious right. I suspect he must be a fundamentalist, because at this point he's putting money behind candidates like Rubio even though he's not in a leadership position with the GOP any more.

Or maybe he is. He's ... Rove, after all.

My read, and I could be wrong, is that Rove is not personally of the Huckabee ilk. I also don't think he is the player that he once was, but rather is trying to be again.

I could be completely off. I don't know the man, but this is the sense that I get from him. I really think it is all a game to him and he enjoys being the puppet master and pulling things over on others.

270 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:44:56pm

re: #258 rwdflynavy

James Taranto put it best in his Best of the Web column today:

So, in case you're keeping score at home:
Rooting for terrorists who wantonly murder women and children to beat America in a war: the highest form of patriotism.
Rooting for Rio to get the Olympics: treason.

Taranto was wrong about that. No one was rooting for Rio to get the Olympics, they were cheering about Obama looking bad when he couldn't close the deal for Chicago.

271 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:45:03pm

re: #264 Conservative Moonbat

Ironic considering a new poll of nations now shows the US is the most admired country globaly.

cool

I'll bring that with me next month when I have to go to the mid-east on business!

272 funky chicken  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:45:36pm

re: #2 Summer

I know that to Karl Rove, all that really matters is the numbers. He seems less concerned with issues than with playing the numbers game like the mad genius that he sometimes can be.

But, really, Karl...

Sorry, but you're wrong. Rove has cultivated the fundamentalist since 1999, and used them to beat McCain in the GOP primary. He is largely responsible for the sorry state of the GOP today.

273 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:45:46pm

re: #258 rwdflynavy

Okay, that might be a little over the top... but the idea that the left raises hell about relatively unimportant issues while ignoring the vital problems facing the country, or accusing those who are concerned about them of ' scare tactics and fear-mongering'... is a very valid one.
Doesn't get any press, though.

274 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:46:07pm

re: #206 iceweasel

People with a problem with free speech typically have a problem with what it encourages: freedom of thought.

The entire purpose of constraining speech is to control thought.

I actually do have a problem with free speech. Or rather, I see a problem within free speech. You must either stick to the concept, and allow forces working against free speech to have their say - or, you undermine the honesty of free speech by enacting laws against "hate speech".
It's the same with the ideals of freedom and democracy. There's either a go-ahead for those working against the framework that allow them to have their say, or a dishonesty within the system.

This has been on my mind for quite a while, and especially lately, when the issue of "how far" we (in Europe) should allow the populist racist parties to have their say and get elected. Obviously, no-one wants to see an anti-democratic party democratically elected, but I don't quite see how to solve that loophole without also denting the original sentiment.

Any thoughts on this conundrum?

275 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:46:18pm

re: #268 RealismRox

Hitchens says Rove is an athiest. Your text to link...

Hadn't seen that before. Interesting. So he's a cynic.

276 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:46:43pm

re: #262 tradewind

James Carville's most honest on-camera moment:
' Where's our Karl Rove, dammit!' , uttered in frustration sometimes during the 2004 campaign.

Carville was arguing with his wife over the Olympics thing and brought Beck into the argument saying "He wouldn’t know the difference between a football, a bat, and a hockey court."

277 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:47:10pm

re: #246 reine.de.tout

Actually "how old is the earth" is an incomplete question, as time and space ate inextricable, if you want to be really scientific.

278 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:47:40pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote


PIMF

NO not so. The entire point of faith is that it is something that you feel. You can not prove it. There is no measurement to make.

I am not smearing anyone. I am saying up and up, that if you want a full blown logical positivist vs. other philosophy debate, at the end of the day, you can only go round and round in circles without proving anything. Philosophical debates are ways to make your worldview at least consistent and not obviously false. However, one always chooses the philosophy that feels right and argues that.

So if you feel feel that the right picture is that all kissing that girl is, all it is, is a molecular and bio-chemical response in a nervous network, so be it. But don't pretend that was not what you decided before, not based on evidence, but rather your own disposition, and are now arguing that view to the best of your abilities. If someone else takes a different paradigm, then they do the exact same thing. There is nothing wrong with either party doing so. Just don't kid yourself about the role that emotion plays in such discussions.

279 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:47:44pm

re: #277 Ojoe

ate = are, PIMF, but kind of funny.

280 TheRealThing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:48:04pm

Now there is a subject many can have an opinion on.

Karl Rove vs James Carville

Which one is the most Machiavellian?

281 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:48:22pm

re: #276 Pianobuff

Carville was arguing with his wife over the Olympics thing and brought Beck into the argument saying "He wouldn’t know the difference between a football, a bat, and a hockey court."

I'll have to give him a pass on this one.
Ya don;'t find many hockey "courts" down in the Bayou

282 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:48:43pm

re: #279 Ojoe

Sounded like some advanced physics.

283 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:49:00pm

re: #280 TheRealThing

Now there is a subject many can have an opinion on.

Karl Rove vs James Carville

Which one is the most Machiavellian?

And which head will reflect the most light?

284 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:49:11pm

re: #277 Ojoe

Actually "how old is the earth" is an incomplete question, as time and space ate inextricable, if you want to be really scientific.

Charles takes a lot of flak for being "anti-religion", when he isn't.
I hate to see folks come in and post things that give those folks ammunition for their mistaken impressions.

285 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:49:31pm

re: #280 TheRealThing

Now there is a subject many can have an opinion on.

Karl Rove vs James Carville

Which one is the most Machiavellian?

That's kinda like asking whether Muhammed Ali or Joe Louis would win a bout if you could put them up against each other in their primes.

286 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:49:34pm

re: #279 Ojoe

ate = are, PIMF, but kind of funny.

heheh.
I knew what you meant.
Was funny, though.

287 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:49:38pm

Ugh. I was driving home from work on Friday, and I saw a woman smoking with one hand, using her call phone in the other, and driving with her knee. I don't want to cover her with my taxpayer dollars with government health care when she drives into a bridge support.

288 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:50:17pm

re: #270 jaunte

Maybe there was a l faction who cheered because Obama didn't bring home the bacon, but a large part of that is the old schadenfreude thing...the smiling when the coolest kid in school loses the homecoming vote.
Juvenile, but not so sinister.

289 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:50:18pm

re: #281 sattv4u2

I'll have to give him a pass on this one.
Ya don;'t find many hockey "courts" down in the Bayou

No ya don't. The irony is that the statement was made to emphasize Beck's lack of knowledge of sports.

290 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:51:08pm

re: #288 tradewind

Maybe there was a l faction who cheered because Obama didn't bring home the bacon

And that faction all have TV/radio shows.

291 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:51:18pm

We're closing in on 100,000 page views for the day, with 6 hours still left before tomorrow rolls around.

Not bad for a blog in "decline" that's becoming "irrelevant."

292 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:51:24pm

re: #280 TheRealThing

Now there is a subject many can have an opinion on.

Karl Rove vs James Carville

Which one is the most Machiavellian?

Advantage Rove. Carville never was referred to as "a US President's brain."

Heh.

293 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:51:41pm

re: #289 Pianobuff

No ya don't. The irony is that the statement was made to emphasize Beck's lack of knowledge of sports.

I know

Sorta like when the dems make fum of the way President Bush pronounced nuclear

which was the exact same way President Carter pronounced it!!

294 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:51:47pm

re: #280 TheRealThing

Serpenthead is entertaining and mildly effective, but not anywhere near the league of Rove, and I bet he would be the first to admit it.

295 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:52:44pm

re: #291 Charles

We're closing in on 100,000 page views for the day, with 6 hours still left before tomorrow rolls around.

Not bad for a blog in "decline" that's becoming "irrelevant."

Nah, truth is that you are going to grow, because by being more in the middle and fact checking all the time, you gain a reputation for honesty. Many people like that.

296 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:52:46pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

So if you feel feel that the right picture is that all kissing that girl is, all it is, is a molecular and bio-chemical response in a nervous network, so be it.

It isn't just that the neural network is the "right picture". Why isn't the neural network picture as wondrous?

297 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:53:13pm

re: #295 LudwigVanQuixote

Nah, truth is that you are going to grow, because by being more in the middle and fact checking all the time, you gain a reputation for honesty. Many people like that.

Yep.
Even when it hurts.

298 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:53:49pm

re: #293 sattv4u2

I know

Sorta like when the dems make fum of the way President Bush pronounced nuclear

which was the exact same way President Carter pronounced it!!

Yup. Truthfully, that kind of ribbing never bothered me and still doesn't. Bush's malapropisms, Obama's teleprompter, nucular, 57 states, I think it's all funny.

299 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:53:58pm

re: #294 tradewind

Serpenthead is entertaining and mildly effective, but not anywhere near the league of Rove, and I bet he would be the first to admit it.

I dunno about that

With Begala and later Stephanopoulous, they took the clinically dead Clinton campaing to the Presidency in 92

300 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:54:52pm

re: #296 Liberal Classic

It isn't just that the neural network is the "right picture". Why isn't the neural network picture as wondrous?

It is wondrous. Of course it is. Science can only add to the sense of wonder of the universe. However, and however wondrous it is, it is hard to find a me in there that actually loves her. I only suggest that however wondrous it is, it may not be everything.

301 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:55:28pm

re: #290 bratwurst
Yeah, it must bite every time the left contemplates the disaster that is Air America.
Yet somehow, there's no outrage when their talk show host refers to a sitting president as head of ' The Bush Crime Family '.

302 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:56:15pm

Celebratory 100,000 Page Views Dance


(via Harry's Place)
303 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:57:14pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

My read, and I could be wrong, is that Rove is not personally of the Huckabee ilk. I also don't think he is the player that he once was, but rather is trying to be again.

I could be completely off. I don't know the man, but this is the sense that I get from him. I really think it is all a game to him and he enjoys being the puppet master and pulling things over on others.

I don't no what Rove is other than a alliance maker...he's all about numbers and winning elections..he ill do anything to win, even sell out his own grannie...politically razor sharp, but otherwise probably not anybody I could relate to...an elite insider and deal maker

304 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:57:47pm

re: #291 Charles

We're closing in on 100,000 page views for the day, with 6 hours still left before tomorrow rolls around.

Not bad for a blog in "decline" that's becoming "irrelevant."

Congrats

Just out of curiousity, how many registered Lizards are there now, and how does that number compare prior to your 'demise" ??

305 TheRealThing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 5:59:30pm

With Carville he used himself to deflect heat from the Clintons.
Lots of energy used up getting him under the Democrat Party Bus.
Republicans spent lots of time and money doing damage to him that would have been used on the higher up leaders of the Democrats.

306 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:00:04pm

re: #303 albusteve

I don't no what Rove is other than a alliance maker...he's all about numbers and winning elections..he ill do anything to win, even sell out his own grannie...politically razor sharp, but otherwise probably not anybody I could relate to...an elite insider and deal maker

He oughta save his money. Rubio ain't winning this race.

307 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:00:28pm

Rove's a political operative with grandmaster capabilities able to build an effective machine. Unfortunately the direction it started rolling in ensured that it would run off a cliff. The Rove coalition is gone forever. I think Peggy Noonan did article about "splitting the sheets" way back in 07, and she got a lot of catcalls from conservatives at the time, but she was right.

308 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:00:33pm

re: #299 sattv4u2
There was an entire Arkansas Mafia involved in that enterprise, not just Carville and Begala. Lanny Davis was major, as well as the television couple Harry and Linda (Bloodworth) Thomason. Really, though, the person responsible for that victory was Headband Hillary, who brought the campaign back from the dead with her Sixty Minutes interview.

309 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:01:25pm

re: #301 tradewind

Yeah, it must bite every time the left contemplates the disaster that is Air America.
Yet somehow, there's no outrage when their talk show host refers to a sitting president as head of ' The Bush Crime Family '.

First of all, the last two election cycles have demonstrated that TV/radio ratings do not translate into votes.

Second of all, the fact Air America is a "disaster" and obviously irrelevant in reach and influence should take away some of the sting of those obviously inappropriate comments.

310 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:01:30pm

But the language that these "creationists" would like inserted into textbooks is pretty non-threatening, isn't it? I mean to say, the proposition to preface evolution with the theory of elicits disproportionate howlings of protest, does it not?

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:01:45pm

re: #25 Charles

In related news, Gary Bauer says Barack Obama is a pro-ghey blasphemer.

"For example, Obama has referenced the Sermon on the Mount in support of special rights for homosexuals, despite the Scriptures’ clear support of marriage between one man and one woman and its admonitions to celebrate sex inside the married relationship only."

I'm sure that my ancestor Yaakov, and his wife Rachel, and his wife Leah, and his concubine Zilpah, and his concubine Bilhah, would all be very concerned to hear that.

312 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:01:49pm

re: #302 jaunte

Heh.
The Bollywood version is nice too...
Mr Bean Aaja nachle

313 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:02:00pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

Also out of curiosity, who's being quoted? Who said LGF was ' in decline' and
'irrelevant'? Some flouncer?

314 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:02:48pm

re: #308 tradewind

There was an entire Arkansas Mafia involved in that enterprise, not just Carville and Begala. Lanny Davis was major, as well as the television couple Harry and Linda (Bloodworth) Thomason. Really, though, the person responsible for that victory was Headband Hillary, who brought the campaign back from the dead with her Sixty Minutes interview.


Most of those you mentioned (save for Hillary, of course) were late comers
As to the "Arkansas Mafia" they held no weight nationally until after it was certain Clinton was going to be the nominee

315 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:03:11pm

after a landslide loss in 2012...I'm gonna start my own blog, called the Irrelevant Elephant...laugh at the GOP 24/7

316 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:03:18pm

re: #310 tom reagan

I'm not following you. It IS the "theory of evolution". Scientific theory is known as fact until more can be discovered.

317 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:03:40pm

re: #310 tom reagan

But the language that these "creationists" would like inserted into textbooks is pretty non-threatening, isn't it? I mean to say, the proposition to preface evolution with the theory of elicits disproportionate howlings of protest, does it not?

After all, it's "just" a theory, right?

318 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:04:16pm

re: #313 tradewind

Also out of curiosity, who's being quoted? Who said LGF was ' in decline' and
'irrelevant'? Some flouncer?

I think thats a recurring theme on some of the GoodBye Cruel World final posts

319 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:04:37pm

re: #317 Liberal Classic

Ok, now I have to pour a drink if you're going to use the drinking phrase.

320 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:04:52pm

re: #310 tom reagan

But the language that these "creationists" would like inserted into textbooks is pretty non-threatening, isn't it? I mean to say, the proposition to preface evolution with the theory of elicits disproportionate howlings of protest, does it not?

no, not at all

321 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:05:09pm

re: #281 sattv4u2

You don't find Carville down on the Bayou too often these days himself...
:)

322 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:05:59pm

re: #310 tom reagan

But the language that these "creationists" would like inserted into textbooks is pretty non-threatening, isn't it? I mean to say, the proposition to preface evolution with the theory of elicits disproportionate howlings of protest, does it not?

No, it does not, because they want to go much further than that, as I suspect you know.

323 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:06:08pm

OT: Does anybody know if we are supposed to be getting anything from China in return for blowing off the Dalai Lama?

324 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:06:29pm

re: #321 tradewind

You don't find Carville down on the Bayou too often these days himself...
:)

Once you've tasted the K street money and the Georgetown rarified air, it's hard to return to the swamp!

325 Pianobuff  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:06:37pm

Rats... called away ... bbiab.

326 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:06:37pm

re: #314 sattv4u2

Do you have any idea how many democrats kicked their butts all over the place when they realized that George Bush was vulnerable? Clinton stepped into a spot that the heavyweights passed on, to his credit. Al Gore supposedly never forgave himself.

327 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:06:50pm

That's one of the weakest strawmen I've seen in a while, it came into the thread already burnt almost to ash.

328 brookly red  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:07:16pm

re: #315 albusteve

after a landslide loss in 2012...I'm gonna start my own blog, called the Irrelevant Elephant...laugh at the GOP 24/7

/why not start it now before the funding dries up?

329 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:08:12pm

re: #317 Liberal Classic

After all, it's "just" a theory, right?

I dunno. I'm a firm believer in science, and evolutionary biology is beautiful, and I despise right-wing manipulators..BUT there are some rather interesting arguments against evolution, which inevitably raise more interesting questions, such as "what, then, created mankind?" From all of which students might find enlightenment.

A common but compelling example is that the chances of life orgainzing from non-life (i.e. molecules, etc..) are virtually zero even with 10^1000 years or so. Might be worth looking into...?

330 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:08:19pm

This guy lives in my 'hood...
My Front Yard Potager is Complete!!! (pics)
Check out the Before and after pics.

Potager is a French tradition similar to English Gardens but with edibles. Grat for small spaces. More ideas on vertical spaces...
Vegetable Garden %P% Potager Montage NatGreeneVeg Spring 2009

Love those raised beds.

331 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:08:25pm

re: #328 brookly red

/why not start it now before the funding dries up?

I'm wildly wealthy

332 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:08:41pm

We have a live one.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:08:50pm

re: #118 lostlakehiker

Umm, what if the child is learning the wrong times table? Wrong spelling? Wrong history? What if they're told at home that there was no holocaust? Would the school have to back off on all of that if there are parents who believe differently?

There was absolute fury here on LGF about rumors that British schools had stopped teaching the Holocaust out of deference to Muslim parents who said it hadn't happened.

What apparently didn't happen was the removal of the Shoah from the British school curriculum. That didn't happen.

But what's the difference between that and adjusting scientific facts to make parents happy?

334 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:09:27pm

re: #329 tom reagan

So you think it's ok to teach religious doctrine in public school?

335 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:09:34pm

re: #308 tradewind

There was an entire Arkansas Mafia involved in that enterprise, not just Carville and Begala. Lanny Davis was major, as well as the television couple Harry and Linda (Bloodworth) Thomason. Really, though, the person responsible for that victory was Headband Hillary, who brought the campaign back from the dead with her Sixty Minutes interview.

...and the decent thing for the Clintons to do is to send Ross Perot a Christmas card every year.

336 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:09:46pm

re: #329 tom reagan

As a firm "believer" in science, how do you think man came to be?

337 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:09:50pm

re: #323 Pianobuff

There are so many fake/misrepresented stories out there that I'm not worried about it. Might just be a scheduling conflict.

338 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:11:05pm

re: #336 Thanos

As a firm "believer" in science, how do you think man came to be?

I don't know.

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:11:53pm

re: #121 The Sanity Inspector

"I'm just equating them with Satan."

But Satan is better than Fidel.

340 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:11:59pm

re: #331 albusteve

I'm wildly wealthy

What a coincidence

I'm wealthily wild!

341 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:12:03pm

re: #330 Killgore Trout

This guy lives in my 'hood...
My Front Yard Potager is Complete!!! (pics)
Check out the Before and after pics.

Potager is a French tradition similar to English Gardens but with edibles. Grat for small spaces. More ideas on vertical spaces...
Vegetable Garden %P% Potager Montage NatGreeneVeg Spring 2009


[Video]Love those raised beds.

the smaller neighborhood starter adobes, here in ABQ, are ofter very clever the way they use walls and gates, and enclosed spaces...creating shade, and usuing sunny spots for lush vegetation
...blocks of them, added onto over the years until the house sprawls across most of the little lots...I bet you'd like it

342 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:12:38pm

re: #329 tom reagan

I dunno. I'm a firm believer in science, and evolutionary biology is beautiful, and I despise right-wing manipulators..BUT there are some rather interesting arguments against evolution, which inevitably raise more interesting questions, such as "what, then, created mankind?" From all of which students might find enlightenment.

A common but compelling example is that the chances of life orgainzing from non-life (i.e. molecules, etc..) are virtually zero even with 10^1000 years or so. Might be worth looking into...?

Well, the probability that life arose on a planet where living beings are pondering their existence is 1. And there are something like 30 billion stars in the Milky Way. Also, important molecules like amino acids form in space and can reach the ground on meteorites.

There are some people who think that actually, the formation of life is quite likely. We won't really know until we learn more about life on other planets.

Of course, none of this means we weren't created by G-d; He could have just used natural means to do so.

343 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:13:08pm

re: #338 tom reagan

Surely since you think evolution is flawed you must have an alternate hypothesis as a "believer" in science? What is it?

344 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:13:31pm

re: #334 marjoriemoon

So you think it's ok to teach religious doctrine in public school?

Absolutely not. But the idea of presenting the problems/open issues in the theory striles me as enriching, not reactionary.

345 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:13:48pm

re: #292 rwmofo

Advantage Rove. Carville never was referred to as "a US President's brain."

Carville and Rove were in different circumstances. In general, Bill and Hillary were more willing to utilize their brains than Incurious George was to exercise his. (NB: IMO Bush is not dumb.)

re: #299 sattv4u2

I dunno about that

With Begala and later Stephanopoulous, they took the clinically dead Clinton campaing to the Presidency in 92

Excellent point, no matter how the credit should be allocated in detail. I still remember, when the scandal broke during the during the primaries, how Clinton came on the Tonight Show in dark glasses and played the saxophone. Absolutely brilliant. That behavior changed the political ground rules, and I don't think that even occurred to the Republicans until it was too late.

346 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:13:55pm

According to SNL Obama has done nothing since being elected.
Close Gitmo: nada
Leave Iraq: nope
Economy: neh
Health care: uh-uh
Get Bin Laden: nyet
Afghanistan: oops
Immigration: non
AGW: brrr

Now that SNL has turned on him, we KNOW Pres. Obama is in trouble.

347 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:14:02pm

re: #329 tom reagan

I dunno. I'm a firm believer in science, and evolutionary biology is beautiful, and I despise right-wing manipulators..BUT there are some rather interesting arguments against evolution, which inevitably raise more interesting questions, such as "what, then, created mankind?" From all of which students might find enlightenment.

A common but compelling example is that the chances of life orgainzing from non-life (i.e. molecules, etc..) are virtually zero even with 10^1000 years or so. Might be worth looking into...?

I'm catching a distinct whiff of irreducible complexity.

348 brookly red  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:14:13pm

re: #331 albusteve

I'm wildly wealthy

well how about buying a round for the house?

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:14:27pm

re: #163 Gus 802

Thanatoaster

FIRE IN THE DISCO!
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 25, 2005 at 4:17 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 20
No. of links posted: 0

Pity. That's a very good name.

350 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:14:39pm

re: #344 tom reagan

The problem with that statement is that they do teach relevant open issues. This smells all moldly, like sad straw to me.

351 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:14:46pm

Mixed with the fragrance of "Teach the Controversy."

352 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:15:08pm

re: #341 albusteve

I would think that Roman gardens would work there too.

353 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:15:11pm

What's your hypothesis Tom?

354 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:15:30pm

re: #348 brookly red

well how about buying a round for the house?

BARTENDER!

355 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:15:40pm

re: #345 jvic

thanks

356 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:15:56pm

re: #344 tom reagan

Absolutely not. But the idea of presenting the problems/open issues in the theory striles me as enriching, not reactionary.

Which problems are those?

357 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:16:24pm

re: #343 Thanos

Surely since you think evolution is flawed you must have an alternate hypothesis as a "believer" in science? What is it?

I don't think evolution is flawed, I know it's partially inadequate, and no one would deny this. I think it's beautiful. But questions remain...

Another thing I find interesting: If there's no God (not that you claimed there isn't), why is there something, rather than nothing?

358 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:16:35pm

re: #344 tom reagan

Absolutely not. But the idea of presenting the problems/open issues in the theory striles me as enriching, not reactionary.

If you've ever taken a highschool level evolution class, which I absolutely recall because I loved the science (wanted to be archeologist for many years), you will know that they discuss these issues about evolution, missing data and so forth. That doesn't make the science wrong. And I went to HS 30 years ago so a ton more has been discovered since that time.

You give the impression of dancing around the issue is all.

359 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:17:23pm

re: #357 tom reagan

I don't think evolution is flawed, I know it's partially inadequate, and no one would deny this. I think it's beautiful. But questions remain...

Which questions are those?

360 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:18:13pm

re: #357 tom reagan

Ok since you don't have any science to present yourself, I'll play. What Flaws? Be specific and quit trying to change the subject now to cosmology, that's not evolution.

361 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:19:02pm

re: #329 tom reagan

A common but compelling example is that the chances of life orgainzing from non-life (i.e. molecules, etc..) are virtually zero even with 10^1000 years or so.

That'd be from the department of making up numbers and reaching a pre-selected conclusion?

..or did you actually want to attribute a source there?

362 mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:19:22pm

Its a never ending game of whac a mole. The anti-science, pro-theocracy crowd just keep jumping back up with the same old discredited arguments and lies, waiting for everyone to grow weary and tired of smacking them back down.

On a related note I was on the set near Flint Michigan today where they are filming a movie about the Scopes Monkey Trial in a historic village park. Fred Thompson is Bryan and Brian Dennehy is Darrow. Oddly enough the lead character in the film is a journalist named "Charles" who is covering the trial. There were at least a hundred extras, all dressed in the 1920's garb. Pretty cool to watch the whole chaotic operation work.

The sad part is that the same arguments people had 80+ years ago are still raging on right now. I think that is what is going to be interesting with this film. The scenery, costumes and characters are from deep in the last century, but the ignorant arguments against science haven't changed one bit.

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:19:25pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Slate had a piece today...Democrats Love America more than Republicans..
Generally it's not viewed well to root against America...
Disgusting...Remember when people were rooting against Obama's Financial policies 6 months ago.. If America went under and just crashed and burned..Great!...Why they were fricking gleeful over the prospect...
Disgusting...

Still, the 'Republicans are more nicer than Democrats' crap always ticks me off, so I'll say here that those sorts of theses are unpleasant and always motivated by a desire to slur one's political opponents.

364 avanti  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:19:42pm

re: #357 tom reagan

I don't think evolution is flawed, I know it's partially inadequate, and no one would deny this. I think it's beautiful. But questions remain...

Another thing I find interesting: If there's no God (not that you claimed there isn't), why is there something, rather than nothing?

Bigger question, who created God, and what did he do before we became his hobby ?

365 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:20:16pm

re: #107 Irish Rose

Get better soon!

366 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:20:24pm

re: #356 Charles

Which problems are those?


Cue the eye-rolling: I have a book on the subject. As an independent thinker (ok, non-committal), I find it interesting reading people's attempts to poke holes in the theory that was so espoused as concrete in my college classes. Some of the anti-evolution arguements are even compelling - most are not - you've heard them and I won't bore you - but it only takes one example to debunk a theory...whch returns us to the more spectacular question..."What if?"

367 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:20:37pm

re: #336 Thanos

As a firm "believer" in science, how do you think man came to be?

Mankind is so smart..We know it all..We not only understand the Universe and all it's workings and secrets...We know God...Every Sunday morning we open the top to the Box we keep Him in and allow you to peak inside..
A real man of God realizes his ignorance...But the ego is just to damn big...
We keep our God in a Box in the closet and pull Him out when we need him..
I believe in God with my whole heart..I don't like Religion or the clothes they wear...

368 albusteve  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:20:45pm

re: #352 Killgore Trout

I would think that Roman gardens would work there too.

yep, there is a distinct Mediterranean influence down here too...and courtyards with gardens have been incorporated into the adobe style...some very cool modern homes with jaw dropping courtyards/gardens...I've seen and worked around them...mini waterfalls and pools etc...lots of foliage...wow

369 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:20:57pm

re: #364 avanti

Bigger question, who created God, and what did he do before we became his hobby ?

Nothing created God. God was not created. God IS.

370 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:21:00pm

re: #366 tom reagan

Cue the eye-rolling: I have a book on the subject.

Which book is that?

371 songbird  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:21:37pm

Am I in the wrong place?

I'd vote for a creationist with a lick of common sense who could bring some fiscal responsibility back to the US anyday. Heck, I'd vote for an evolutionist with a lick of common sense who would do the same.

372 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:22:04pm

re: #371 songbird

Am I in the wrong place?

I'd vote for a creationist with a lick of common sense who could bring some fiscal responsibility back to the US anyday. Heck, I'd vote for an evolutionist with a lick of common sense who would do the same.

Missed You!

373 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:22:30pm

re: #361 cenotaphium

That'd be from the department of making up numbers and reaching a pre-selected conclusion?

..or did you actually want to attribute a source there?

A fair statement. I could dig up a reference but I'll just back away from that statistical claim for now, as I only mentioned it as an example of the types of arguements that can be made against evolution.

374 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #285 LudwigVanQuixote

That's kinda like asking whether Muhammed Ali or Joe Louis would win a bout if you could put them up against each other in their primes.

But you could have an AWESOME conversation about that.

375 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:23:40pm

re: #371 songbird

Am I in the wrong place?

I'd vote for a creationist with a lick of common sense who could bring some fiscal responsibility back to the US anyday. Heck, I'd vote for an evolutionist with a lick of common sense who would do the same.

The major problem with that is, the zeal for creationism and/or evolution in some politicians is so high, it cancels out the common sense. And common sense seems to be short supply these days.

376 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:23:52pm

re: #287 acwgusa

Ugh. I was driving home from work on Friday, and I saw a woman smoking with one hand, using her call phone in the other, and driving with her knee. I don't want to cover her with my taxpayer dollars with government health care when she drives into a bridge support.

Ah, but are you comfortable with the nanny state telling her to hang up and throw out the ciggies before she takes you out?

;)

377 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:24:07pm

re: #369 marjoriemoon

Nothing created God. God was not created. God IS.

I think he was pointing out the absurdity in both saying that there must be an answer to the infinite regress of the "first cause", and then settling on "God" without an answer for "what created God", since the "God" in this example is completely arbitrary and can be exchanged with "X" as to avoid confusion with religion.

378 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:24:09pm

re: #371 songbird

The controversy is not over private beliefs, it's about those with a particular belief wanting to change science education standards for everyone.

379 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:24:23pm

re: #361 cenotaphium

That'd be from the department of making up numbers and reaching a pre-selected conclusion?

..or did you actually want to attribute a source there?

Naw, he's pimping Dembski (sp?) swill

380 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:24:35pm

re: #370 Charles

Oh let's see, I've got "Scientific Creationism" and "A Scientific Analysis of Genesis" that I flip through occasionally. Some passages are interesting, some are not.

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:24:56pm

re: #288 tradewind

Maybe there was a l faction who cheered because Obama didn't bring home the bacon, but a large part of that is the old schadenfreude thing...the smiling when the coolest kid in school loses the homecoming vote.
Juvenile, but not so sinister.

It's petulent and silly.

382 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:25:04pm

re: #366 tom reagan

Cue the eye-rolling: I have a book on the subject. As an independent thinker (ok, non-committal), I find it interesting reading people's attempts to poke holes in the theory that was so espoused as concrete in my college classes. Some of the anti-evolution arguements are even compelling - most are not - you've heard them and I won't bore you - but it only takes one example to debunk a theory...whch returns us to the more spectacular question..."What if?"

You've landed on something that is both good and bad.

You're absolutely right. It would be trivially easy to disprove the theory of evolution, and much of geology to boot. All you need to do is find a fully modern human skull in sediment a few million years old. Or a fossil of a trilobyte in the La Brea tar pits.

The question is: with all the searching people are doing worldwide, why haven't we found the one example?

383 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:25:10pm

re: #329 tom reagan

A common but compelling example is that the chances of life orgainzing from non-life (i.e. molecules, etc..) are virtually zero even with 10^1000 years or so. Might be worth looking into...?

One word: correlation. Temporal correlation, in particular.

384 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:25:44pm

re: #376 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah, but are you comfortable with the nanny state telling her to hang up and throw out the ciggies before she takes you out?

;)

This is Southern Cali I'm in. Talking on the phone while driving is already banned, and throwing ciggies out the window here after the wildfires is an immediate lifetime sentence without possibility of parole.

385 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:25:50pm

It's a totally different view watching Whack-a-mole vs. my normal perspective of being the mole.

386 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:25:58pm

re: #373 tom reagan

A fair statement. I could dig up a reference but I'll just back away from that statistical claim for now, as I only mentioned it as an example of the types of arguements that can be made against evolution.

Which arguments are those?

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:26:20pm

re: #293 sattv4u2

I know

Sorta like when the dems make fum of the way President Bush pronounced nuclear

which was the exact same way President Carter pronounced it!!

I've heard Palin use both 'nuke-leer' and 'nuke-you-lar'. I have always wondered what her default is, and why she sometimes uses the other one.

388 avanti  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:26:26pm

re: #377 cenotaphium

I think he was pointing out the absurdity in both saying that there must be an answer to the infinite regress of the "first cause", and then settling on "God" without an answer for "what created God", since the "God" in this example is completely arbitrary and can be exchanged with "X" as to avoid confusion with religion.

You got it.

389 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:26:39pm

re: #380 tom reagan

Oh let's see, I've got "Scientific Creationism" and "A Scientific Analysis of Genesis" that I flip through occasionally. Some passages are interesting, some are not.

Imagine my surprise.

390 songbird  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:26:50pm

re: #372 HoosierHoops

Missed You!


Missed you too! Living in the land of unemployment and part time jobs. Add limited internets to that mix!

{{{HoosierHoops}}}

391 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:27:11pm

re: #366 tom reagan

[...] but it only takes one example to debunk a theory...whch returns us to the more spectacular question..."What if?"

You seem to be referring to the Black Swan. Well, OK, pony up: what's the Black Swan of evolution? Otherwise you're just blowing smoke of the freshman-dorm-bull-session-bong variety.

And what the hell is "spectacular" about What If? What if monkeys flew out of my butt? What if Sarah Palin had a brain? What if Harry Potter were a real person? It would be spectacular if you could come up with an entertaining answer to those questions. Just asking them is bong-water.

392 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:28:25pm

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

I've heard Palin use both 'nuke-leer' and 'nuke-you-lar'. I have always wondered what her default is, and why she sometimes uses the other one.

There are words where my proper Brahman Bostonian accent is clearly evident, and then the next time I say the same word tha accent is missing

I have no idea why, but mom did tell me she dropped me several times when I was an infant, and we didn't have carpeting!

393 tom reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:28:51pm

re: #386 Charles

Which arguments are those?

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

394 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:29:26pm

re: #344 tom reagan

Absolutely not. But the idea of presenting the problems/open issues in the theory striles me as enriching, not reactionary.

What problems or open issues are there in the theory?

395 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:29:31pm

re: #390 songbird

Missed you too! Living in the land of unemployment and part time jobs. Add limited internets to that mix!

{{{HoosierHoops}}}

(songbird)
How the heck is your Sister? She is a great artist

396 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:30:13pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

How can the universe eventually ending in heat death be an argument against evolution?

397 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:30:17pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.


Debunked, doesn't apply, gratuitous math.

I think we'll mention those when we mention the "Pigs Fly" hypothesis.

398 researchok  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:30:18pm

re: #359 Charles

Which questions are those?

I don't know the questions you are referring to, but I do know this: There are supposed to be questions- that is what precisely what science addresses. In fact, science always finds more questions and propositions to be answered. That is how science advances.

I'm a believer and I have no issues with evolution whatsoever. In fact, the more I come to understand evolution the more I appreciate the magnitude of Creation.

For me, evolution is the ultimate expression of the Laws of Nature. Once set in motion, those laws remain irrefutable and immutable. When questions or quandaries arise, I let science do what it does best- uncover the mysteries of the universe.

Belief and appreciation of evolution and science have nothing to do with faith in God- and it is a mistake to think otherwise.

399 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:30:19pm

re: #303 albusteve

I don't no what Rove is other than a alliance maker...he's all about numbers and winning elections..he ill do anything to win, even sell out his own grannie...politically razor sharp, but otherwise probably not anybody I could relate to...an elite insider and deal maker

That strikes me re: #374 SanFranciscoZionist

But you could have an AWESOME conversation about that.

So true...

My current fav fanboy conversation that I actually had with a fan girl is:

Jane Grey with full on Phoenix vs. Dr. Manhattan.

400 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:30:42pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

Oh brother.

401 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:32:13pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

I don't think that exists anymore...in any field.

402 songbird  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:32:28pm

re: #395 HoosierHoops

(songbird)
How the heck is your Sister? She is a great artist

Working for the Indy city government helping to determine who gets benefits. Engaged to be married next year! She seems ok!

How about you? Pop me an E-mail. I need to get some sleep. 4:45 comes early!

403 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:32:31pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

Yes it would be absolutely terrible because each in turn has been debunked and disproved. Should we also teach alchemy, ptolemaic astronomy and witchcraft? Those are also theories that have been debunked and contain at least as much water as the crud you are pushing.

Here's the answers to the complexity arg [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]
Behe has been trashed here several times, and got total smack down in the Dover court, and Shubin's discoveries alone are enough to debunk his crap.

404 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:32:41pm

re: #380 tom reagan

Oh let's see, I've got "Scientific Creationism" and "A Scientific Analysis of Genesis" that I flip through occasionally. Some passages are interesting, some are not.

So you're a young earth creationist. Haven't seen one of those around here for a while.

405 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:32:57pm

re: #335 rwmofo

I miss Ross Perot-isms.

' Get up in the morning and look in the mirror. You're your own job security'.
' We got a patient coming in with broken fingers and toes whose heart has stopped, and the politicians want to mess with the fingers and toes first.'
406 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:33:36pm

re: #402 songbird

Working for the Indy city government helping to determine who gets benefits. Engaged to be married next year! She seems ok!

How about you? Pop me an E-mail. I need to get some sleep. 4:45 comes early!

Will do..weet dreams
and kind regards

407 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:33:39pm

Scientific Creationism is a book by young earth creationist Henry Morris.

408 researchok  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:34:23pm

re: #398 researchok

Sorry, Charles- my remarks were meant to be addressed to Tom Reagan

409 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:34:24pm

Just askin' questions ... imagining possibilities ... being open minded ...

/did I miss one?

410 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:34:31pm

re: #396 acwgusa

How can the universe eventually ending in heat death be an argument against evolution?

That's the argument that states always-increasing disorder doesn't support matter springing to life.

411 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:34:55pm

re: #407 Charles

That cover art looks a bit like Dianetics.

412 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:35:12pm

re: #407 Charles

Scientific Creationism is a book by young earth creationist Henry Morris.

Charles ,,
Fastest fact Check/ Researcher on the web!

((Bond ,, James Bond!))

413 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:35:13pm

re: #392 sattv4u2

There are words where my proper Brahman Bostonian Bahstonian accent is clearly evident, and then the next time I say the same word tha accent is missing

Fify, I think.

Apologies if I misplaced you into a lower caste.

414 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:35:25pm

Just a note - try these sometime. Just made them

415 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:35:35pm

re: #410 Tom Reagan

Oh, I dunno. Look at Jon and Kate Plus Eight.
///

416 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:36:24pm

re: #410 Tom Reagan

That's the argument that states always-increasing disorder doesn't support matter springing to life.

Could you put that in a mathematical formula for me? Your word-picture is too complex for me to understand.

417 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:36:32pm

re: #380 tom reagan

The funny thing is that I'd be more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit reading about "alternative theories" - creationism, the electrical universe, niburu, ancient astronauts.. and you can always find writing on the subjects good enough to make you compelled to ask "what if".
However, the next step - fact checking - is where they all fall down. And that's the crucial step.
It's fine if you just want to read the exiting fabulations and not check up on them. However, I'd advise against being a proponent of extraordinary ideas you really know very little about.

418 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:36:47pm

re: #393 tom reagan

Irreducible complexity, second law of thermodynamics, probabilities, the classic ones.

Would it really be terrible to mention these, in this context, in curriculums? Maybe, but I'm not sure.

Permit to point out respectfully,

1. The entire process of evolution is not solely based on chance. Mutations in existing structures get either promoted or destroyed by selective processes. Further, all biological systems are constrained by physics. What I mean by that is that there is an optimal way to make a wing, or an eye that sees under certain conditions. Thus if you are a flying creature that needs to locate prey on the ground, and swoop down to get it, then mutations that improve your vision and /or your flight will make you more likely to survive and of necessity not only become more complex, but also approach physical optimums.

2. There is no violation of the second law of thermodynamics. The earth is not a closed system. If you state the entire law, that entropy increases in a closed system, and you understand that the Earth is not closed, there is no violation.

419 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:36:50pm

re: #411 jaunte

That cover art looks a bit like Dianetics.

L. Ron Hubbard

New Books from The Grave since 1984

420 wiffersnapper  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:37:14pm

And Rove was looking like such a genius too. Ick...

421 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:37:17pm

re: #411 jaunte

That cover art looks a bit like Dianetics.


Now you're tempting fate...and Scientology lawyers.

422 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:37:20pm

re: #404 Charles

So you're a young earth creationist. Haven't seen one of those around here for a while.

You may have mischaracterized me. I deny that accusation 100%. All I'm saying is that some questioning of the status quo (i.e. widely-held beliefs) can be healthy, and not unreasonable.

423 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:37:26pm

re: #413 jvic

Fify, I think.

Apologies if I misplaced you into a lower caste.

No problem, Jeeves, now Pahk My Cah !

424 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:12pm

Chemical bonding and gravity don't disprove entropy. Nor does entropy disprove chemical bonding or gravity.

425 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:12pm

re: #414 karmic_inquisitor

Nice.

426 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:23pm

re: #415 tradewind

Oh, I dunno. Look at Jon and Kate Plus Eight.
///

John and Kate Plus Eight could be construed as there NOT being a loving and compassionate God. What loving God could foist that upon a unsuspecting populace?

/S

427 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:26pm

re: #417 cenotaphium

The funny thing is that I'd be more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit reading about "alternative theories" - creationism, the electrical universe, niburu, ancient astronauts.. and you can always find writing on the subjects good enough to make you compelled to ask "what if".
However, the next step - fact checking - is where they all fall down. And that's the crucial step.
It's fine if you just want to read the exiting fabulations and not check up on them. However, I'd advise against being a proponent of extraordinary ideas you really know very little about.

Fair enough and I appreciate your opinions and that is why I offered mine in this forum.

428 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:31pm

He appears conflicted since he's also presenting ID stuff.

Tom, this vid's for you, there is a whole series of these by NCSE in the Grand Canyon, I recommend you view them all.

429 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:53pm

This is like one of those kung-fu movies with the 12 against one fight scene.

430 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:38:56pm

re: #422 Tom Reagan

You may have mischaracterized me. I deny that accusation 100%. All I'm saying is that some questioning of the status quo (i.e. widely-held beliefs) can be healthy, and not unreasonable.

You just cited two young earth creationist books.

Are you affiliated in some way with the Institute for Creation Research?

431 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:39:13pm

Waitaminute. We have a "Tom Reagan" and a "tom reagan"?

432 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:39:42pm

re: #429 rwmofo

This is like one of those kung-fu movies with the 12 against one fight scene.

Problem is,,, in those movies ,, the "one" is usually the righteous one AND the winner!

433 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:39:51pm

re: #411 jaunte

That cover art looks a bit like Dianetics.

OK, can people here agree that scientology is an evil cult and not a religion?

I mean you really should not have to achieve enlightenment for the low low cost of millions of dollars and have to repudiate your family to do so.

Religions don't do that we hope.

434 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:40:31pm

re: #431 Liberal Classic

Waitaminute. We have a "Tom Reagan" and a "tom reagan"?

I was wondering the same thing. I think he may have logged off and back in. I can be "cato the elder" if I want to look all e.e. cummings-y - just type it that way when I log in.

435 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:40:40pm

re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote

I can agree with that. Sorry for the distraction.

436 sattv4u2  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:41:01pm

re: #431 Liberal Classic

Waitaminute. We have a "Tom Reagan" and a "tom reagan"?

I only see one, and there's only one listed under SHOW USERS

437 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:41:06pm

re: #410 Tom Reagan

That's the argument that states always-increasing disorder doesn't support matter springing to life.

There's a site called "Talk Origins" that's not updated anymore, but is still a nice resource to get a handle on the creationism claims (it's also listed under LGF resources). There's a page on The Second Law of Thermodynamics there. You should check it out.

438 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:41:14pm

re: #425 Killgore Trout

Nice.

Thought you'd like it. Had Chevre and bacon in the fridge and hit the Internet and found it.

439 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:41:35pm

re: #420 wiffersnapper

And Rove was looking like such a genius too. Ick...

Rove's record is 4-0. Maybe he's not done yet. The ego of these guys doesn't always let them ride peacefully into the sunset.

440 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:41:35pm

Here's another vid for you Tom

441 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:42:20pm

re: #418 LudwigVanQuixote

Good points, Ludwig. Glad you're here to provide the science. BTW, did you see the AGW post tqcincinnatus put up over at The Deuce. They claim to have refuted you and AGW, though I know they have not.

442 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:42:29pm

re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote

Now there's a religion cult-bashing thread I can really dig my teeth into.
Just thinking about the death of Jett Travolta makes me lose perspective.

443 brookly red  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:42:56pm

re: #432 sattv4u2

Problem is,,, in those movies ,, the "one" is usually the righteous one AND the winner!

/& gets the girl too...

444 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:43:41pm

re: #414 karmic_inquisitor
You might also like...
incredible smashed peas and broad beans on toast

I wish he posted video of him making it. He does it sitting out in the garden, very simple, very easy.

445 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:43:47pm

re: #432 sattv4u2

Problem is,,, in those movies ,, the "one" is usually the righteous one AND the winner!

I was just trying to interject a little humor - very little.

446 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:44:16pm

re: #346 Spare O'Lake

According to SNL Obama has done nothing since being elected.
Close Gitmo: nada
Leave Iraq: nope
Economy: neh
Health care: uh-uh
Get Bin Laden: nyet
Afghanistan: oops
Immigration: non
AGW: brrr

Now that SNL has turned on him, we KNOW Pres. Obama is in trouble.

The entire MSM seems to be melting down over the SNL sketch and its deep significance.
WTF?

447 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:44:39pm

re: #423 sattv4u2

No problem, Jeeves, now Pahk My Cah !

Dr. Jeeves, to you! ;-)

I'm off now, to read Spinoza...

448 lostlakehiker  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:44:58pm

re: #195 cenotaphium

This is one thing I've never quite grasped about your political system.. I understand that it's interesting to live in a swing state, to have a high political presence and where your vote matters a great deal. But to live in a state which is almost assuredly going one way and your vote won't matter as much - that must suck immensly.
I understand that the electoral system is there for a reason, to overcome some of the problems with a majority rule, but what is (or can be) done to prevent voter apathy in the "locked" states?

Perhaps the greater problem is locked congressional districts. Even in landslide elections, almost all districts don't change. Take CA. The Democrats have taken security to the point that they gerrymander the Republicans a number of very safe districts, so as to make absolutely safe the many Democratic districts. If they were so inclined, they could draw reasonable districts and as a result win a considerably higher fraction of CA's congressional delegation. 95%? But the last 5 or 10 % of that 95 would consist of seats that were always at risk, and they'd lose them from time to time, gaining others from time to time. Can't have that, I guess.

449 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:46:16pm

re: #430 Charles

You just cited two young earth creationist books.

Are you affiliated in some way with the Institute for Creation Research?

I couldn't be less affiliated with it. My goodness.

I've been there and back. I've pondered both sides of the arguments. I don't think one should be dissmissed outright as poison. What would stimulate students more? (1) Here's how it is, end of story, ignore anything else you hear. Or, (2) here's what makes a lot of sense scientifcally, but there are one or two things about it we can't really explain...let me mention those...

450 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:46:18pm

re: #430 Charles

You just cited two young earth creationist books.

Are you affiliated in some way with the Institute for Creation Research?

Sure got quiet in here.

451 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:46:42pm

And now we have another creationist up-dinging tom reagan's comments.

452 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:47:22pm

You know its bad when the dorm room has cockroaches, but its even worse when the cockroaches have worms. I had no idea something like this was even possible. Yikes.

453 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:47:29pm

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

Good points, Ludwig. Glad you're here to provide the science. BTW, did you see the AGW post tqcincinnatus put up over at The Deuce. They claim to have refuted you and AGW, though I know they have not.

Is this a new one? Last one I saw, they were speculating that I was a female with a social sciences degree.

As if either would be an insult.

Lemme go and see...

454 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:47:37pm

re: #449 Tom Reagan

Untruth is poison.

455 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:48:02pm

re: #452 Mich-again

I am not even going to click that...

456 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:48:40pm

re: #446 Spare O'Lake

The entire MSM seems to be melting down over the SNL sketch and its deep significance.
WTF?

SNL reestablished itself in politics to the MSM with Tina Fey's memorable send-ups of Sarah Palin. To see SNL (which is a part of left-leaning NBC) go after Obama like that is very shocking to the MSM.

457 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:48:48pm

Watching this is more fun than that time when my neighbor fell off the roof and landed on his dog. Then his dog bit him.

458 Neutral President  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:48:50pm

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

Good points, Ludwig. Glad you're here to provide the science. BTW, did you see the AGW post tqcincinnatus put up over at The Deuce. They claim to have refuted you and AGW, though I know they have not.

No doubt by bringing up some point that's been debunked a hundred times already instead of with anything new.

459 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:48:50pm

re: #433 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, can people here agree that scientology is an evil cult and not a religion?

I mean you really should not have to achieve enlightenment for the low low cost of millions of dollars and have to repudiate your family to do so.

Religions don't do that we hope.

Lud..I'm still pissed off that the theory about the Speed of Light slowing down since the big bang was discredited.. It was a perfect conspiracy Physics story...It destroys Hubble and Hawking and Einstein...A perfect story of the guy with a gun on the grassy knoll...
It took a thousand dollar graphic on the Science channel to completely trash it...Dang it!
/It was kind of a cool idea...

460 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #452 Mich-again

Creepy!

461 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:49:59pm

re: #452 Mich-again

You know its bad when the dorm room has cockroaches, but its even worse when the cockroaches have worms. I had no idea something like this was even possible. Yikes.

[Video]

There have got to be better pets than worms - unless the cockroaches got a good deal.

462 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:50:22pm

re: #460 jaunte

Creepy!

Science!

463 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:50:22pm

re: #449 Tom Reagan

I couldn't be less affiliated with it. My goodness.

I just asked because you happen to be located in the city where the Institute for Creation Research has their headquarters, and you're parroting their talking points.

I've been there and back. I've pondered both sides of the arguments.

Somehow, I doubt that.

I don't think one should be dissmissed outright as poison. What would stimulate students more? (1) Here's how it is, end of story, ignore anything else you hear. Or, (2) here's what makes a lot of sense scientifcally, but there are one or two things about it we can't really explain...let me mention those...

You're citing books by young earth creationists, and you have the nerve to talk about what "makes a lot of sense scientifcally?"

464 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:51:04pm

re: #454 Thanos

Untruth is poison.

Quite Concur. Creationism can't explain things nearly as well as evolution can and the evidence keeps piling up in evolution's favor. Let's see how Tom the YEC tries to make his case.

465 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:51:07pm

So Tom if I understand your argument you are saying that teachers should bear false witness to children in the interests of discussion of "what if"?

What if is fine in a creative science fiction writing class, and in philosophy and religion classes, but what if's in science need to be bounded by truth, facts, and reason if we are to get anywhere.

466 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:51:10pm

re: #449 Tom Reagan

I've been there and back. I've pondered both sides of the arguments. I don't think one should be dissmissed outright as poison. What would stimulate students more? (1) Here's how it is, end of story, ignore anything else you hear. Or, (2) here's what makes a lot of sense scientifcally, but there are one or two things about it we can't really explain...let me mention those...

Funny, I made a post about this earlier. You're making both the "teach the controversy" claim and the "strengths and weaknesses" defense.
Do you really not see the problem by putting up a false dilemma (either it's evolution or it's creationism), and then saying that any problems with evolutionary theory is a boon for creationism?

Like I said, I'm all for giving you the benefit of the doubt, but if you really know this little about the basics about both evolution and creationism, I can't see why you'd continue to press the issue unless you were invested in making some rethorical points for creationism.

467 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:51:33pm

re: #449 Tom Reagan

(2) here's what makes a lot of sense scientifcally, but there are one or two things about it we can't really explain...let me mention those...

lol we got a live one

468 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:52:15pm

re: #450 Charles

Sure got quiet in here.

I did reply, and I've enjoyed this discussion. Will reference the information provided by other commenters herein to educate myself on the debunking of anti-evolution arguments.

469 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:52:17pm

re: #449 Tom Reagan

I couldn't be less affiliated with it. My goodness.

I've been there and back. I've pondered both sides of the arguments. I don't think one should be dissmissed outright as poison. What would stimulate students more? (1) Here's how it is, end of story, ignore anything else you hear. Or, (2) here's what makes a lot of sense scientifcally, but there are one or two things about it we can't really explain...let me mention those...

Please do "mention those" - all you've brought so far are YEC/ID buzzwords. Thermodynamics! Irreducible! Probabilities! Whee-haw!

Can you imagine how many times we've seen, and refuted, those "arguments"? Can you bring something new?

I mean, we're all deeply impressed with your open mind...oh wait, not really. Your sincerity...sorry. I mean your incisive writing style...well, not so much.

If you have a Black Swan, please ride in on it, to music from Lohengrin. We might even throw bouquets.

470 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:53:20pm

re: #465 Thanos

So Tom if I understand your argument you are saying that teachers should bear false witness to children in the interests of discussion of "what if"?

What if is fine in a creative science fiction writing class, and in philosophy and religion classes, but what if's in science need to be bounded by truth, facts, and reason if we are to get anywhere.

That's what I'm getting from Tom.

I do NOT want a science teacher teaching my kid about faith.

And I do NOT want a religion teacher teaching my kid science.

Anyone who does has a screw loose.

471 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:53:56pm

re: #346 Spare O'Lake

According to SNL Obama has done nothing since being elected.
Close Gitmo: nada
Leave Iraq: nope
Economy: neh
Health care: uh-uh
Get Bin Laden: nyet
Afghanistan: oops
Immigration: non
AGW: brrr

Now that SNL has turned on him, we KNOW Pres. Obama is in trouble.

[Video]

Oh shit that was funny!

Rare for SNL.

472 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:54:03pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

Please do "mention those" - all you've brought so far are YEC/ID buzzwords. Thermodynamics! Irreducible! Probabilities! Whee-haw!

Can you imagine how many times we've seen, and refuted, those "arguments"? Can you bring something new?

I mean, we're all deeply impressed with your open mind...oh wait, not really. Your sincerity...sorry. I mean your incisive writing style...well, not so much.

If you have a Black Swan, please ride in on it, to music from Lohengrin. We might even throw bouquets.

Tough crowd.

Just the way I like it... ;)

473 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:54:40pm

re: #469 Cato the Elder

Please do "mention those" - all you've brought so far are YEC/ID buzzwords. Thermodynamics! Irreducible! Probabilities! Whee-haw!

Can you imagine how many times we've seen, and refuted, those "arguments"? Can you bring something new?

I mean, we're all deeply impressed with your open mind...oh wait, not really. Your sincerity...sorry. I mean your incisive writing style...well, not so much.

If you have a Black Swan, please ride in on it, to music from Lohengrin. We might even throw bouquets.

I just got back to this thread, and I have NO IDEA what you post is all about, but it was so "eloquent" I just had to up ding you.

474 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:54:47pm

re: #470 reine.de.tout

I do NOT want a science teacher teaching my kid about faith.

And I do NOT want a religion teacher teaching my kid science.

Who should teach comparative religion? :/

475 arethusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:55:11pm

re: #471 Racer X

Even funnier is that CNN fact-checked the SNL skit.

476 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:55:17pm

I'm thinking that Rove's endorsement of Rubio may have more to do with courting the Cuban community in FL than the creationist contingent.
Politics nowdays almost never allows a single-issue voter any satisfaction, and this may be one of those cases. There were potential deal-breakers associated with every candidate for me in this last presidential race...realistically, my vote will probably come down to priorities, not perfection.

477 walkman  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:55:18pm

re: #451 Charles

And now we have another creationist up-dinging tom reagan's comments.

I guess that would be me. Yes, I don't believe that humans evolved from single-celled, primordial soup, organisms. I'm really a pretty reasonable guy, otherwise.

478 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:55:29pm

re: #474 cenotaphium

Who should teach comparative religion? :/

My daughter got/gets it in religion class.

479 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:55:32pm

re: #474 cenotaphium

Who should teach comparative religion? :/

G-d.

480 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:56:18pm

re: #477 walkman

I guess that would be me. Yes, I don't believe that humans evolved from single-celled, primordial soup, organisms. I'm really a pretty reasonable guy, otherwise.

So, how did we get here?

481 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:56:20pm

re: #477 walkman

I guess that would be me. Yes, I don't believe that humans evolved from single-celled, primordial soup, organisms. I'm really a pretty reasonable guy, otherwise.

No, we evolved from organisms that evolved from them.

Feel better now?

482 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:56:34pm

re: #463 Charles

You're citing books by young earth creationists, and you have the nerve to talk about what "makes a lot of sense scientifcally?"

That so? I just moved here! It seriously doesn't seem too backward here so far. Tons of Obama bumper stickers...

483 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:56:51pm

re: #477 walkman

I guess that would be me. Yes, I don't believe that humans evolved from single-celled, primordial soup, organisms. I'm really a pretty reasonable guy, otherwise.


so where do you 'believe' humans and modern lifeforms came from

484 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:56:59pm

Two creationists in one thread. Bonus!

485 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:57:40pm

re: #476 tradewind

Good points. If anyone is waiting on perfection--from either side--there's going to be a long wait. I'll go with the one that's mostly right.

486 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:57:42pm

re: #484 Charles

Two creationists in one thread. Bonus!

Can I have one of them... please Charles...

487 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:58:14pm

Teach the Controversy!

*Unless it involves deh gheys and stuff.

488 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:58:25pm

there just so happens to be room for two in this here flounceapult

489 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:58:31pm

re: #477 walkman

Yes, I don't believe that humans evolved from single-celled, primordial soup, organisms.

No one is claiming we did. You're missing a few crucial steps in-between there.

490 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:58:35pm

re: #484 Charles

Two creationists in one thread. Bonus!


re: #483 SpaceJesus

SpaceJesus, ready the Flounceapult. We may need it.

491 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:58:59pm

re: #487 Racer X

God; making gheys for 6,000 years.

492 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:25pm

It's like the old days. Sniff. I'm getting nostalgic.

493 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:26pm

re: #484 Charles

Two creationists in one thread. Bonus!

Well I'll be a son of a monkey, that's never happened before...

//

494 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:47pm

re: #488 SpaceJesus

Flounceapult?

That a new one? Cause it's funny!

495 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:50pm

re: #491 Killgore Trout

God; making gheys for 6,000 years.

OK, now thats funny!

496 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:51pm

re: #378 jaunte

The controversy is not over private beliefs, it's about those with a particular belief wanting to change science education standards for everyone.

Let me follow that up before logging off.

I was not pleased to hear that Reagan was a creationist, but I voted for him because I expected him to govern better than Carter was doing.

With the Rove/Dobson/Robertson Republicans, my sense is that they are relatively indifferent to the issues I consider important. My sense is that they might pay lip service to those issues to suck me into voting for them, but their real priorities are the theocratic ones. And that they'd rather ally with the Abramoff/Lott types than commit to limited government.

497 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:53pm

re: #488 SpaceJesus

/The Voice of Tolerance rings in the night/

498 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 6:59:57pm

re: #481 Cato the Elder

You beat me to it!

499 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:00:50pm

re: #484 Charles

Dude I'm not a creationist. Geez. Just ask. Right-wing social politics/religion depresses me, more and more lately. Going to church is downright embarassing now and I've had to cut way back.

500 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:00:58pm

re: #496 jvic

What!?!

Reagan was a creationist?

501 SpaceJesus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:01:03pm

re: #494 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

the mighty flounceapult is new, but is far from being untested

502 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:01:47pm

Tom,

You said you're absolutely against teaching religion in public school, but you want to teach Creationism in school to "fill in the flaws" of evolution. So that's why you're not making much sense.

503 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:02:54pm

I ask Charles' forbearance with this post,

Please forbear...

But the thread that DF pointed out to me has the single most mind numbingly amazing in it's awfulness argument against AGW that I have ever seen.

When a dickless Eurometrosexual goes car shopping, Pierre, Ludwig or Sven’s first concern is, “How many grams of C02 per 100 kilometers does this car produce?”

They sucked the joy out of cars over there.

Ain’t happening here.

Yes, you all read that right, taking AGW seriously might interfere with manly cars being manly enough to staunch homophobia. So therefore, the science must be wrong!

This one is a keeper for my kids.

I have never seen anything so funny yet tragic. Perhaps we can tell him that the torques on an electric care mean that you can accelerate like a bat out of hell even in a minivan...

Perhaps all we scientists need is an add campaign with really buff cowboys and bikers and other manly men driving electric cars... wait that sounds a little too erm manly, particularly if they are wearing chaps...wrong stereotype... Perhaps all we need is an add campaign with paunchy, balding, middle aged white guys driving really fast electric cars and then really attractive younger women, who would never otherwise give them the time of day, notice them for being cool and eco-conscious...

504 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:03:28pm

re: #500 Racer X

He was an "only a theory" man:
[Link: ncseweb.org...]

505 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:03:28pm

re: #502 marjoriemoon

Tom,

You said you're absolutely against teaching religion in public school, but you want to teach Creationism in school to "fill in the flaws" of evolution. So that's why you're not making much sense.

Just doesn't seem that horrifying to teach evolution with some rational caveats that give the student something to worry about.

506 BignJames  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:04:11pm

re: #502 marjoriemoon

Tom,

You said you're absolutely against teaching religion in public school, but you want to teach Creationism in school to "fill in the flaws" of evolution. So that's why you're not making much sense.


I thought it was the fumes from the meth lab.

507 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:04:18pm

re: #505 Tom Reagan

Just doesn't seem that horrifying to teach evolution with some rational caveats that give the student something to worry about.

Then that would be religion in school and it's unconstitutional (gads, we haven't even gotten to that argument yet).

508 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:04:34pm

Some of the artists of the 60's are revising their hits with new lyrics to accommodate aging baby boomers.

They include:

Bobby Darin ---
Splish, Splash, I Was Havin' a Flash.

Herman's Hermits ---
Mrs. Brown, You've Got a Lovely Walker.

Ringo Starr ---
I Get By With a Little Help From Depends.

The Bee Gees -- -
How Can You Mend a Broken Hip.

Roberta Flack---
The First Time Ever I Forgot Your Face.

Johnny Nash ---
I Can't See Clearly Now.

Paul Simon---
Fifty Ways to Lose Your Liver.

The Commodores ---
Once, Twice, Three Times to the Bathroom.

Marvin Gaye ---
Heard It Through the Grape Nuts.

Procol Harem---
A Whiter Shade of Hair.

Leo Sayer ---
You Make Me Feel Like Napping.

The Temptations ---
Papa's Got a Kidney Stone.

Abba---
Denture Queen.

Tony Orlando ---
Knock 3 Times On The Ceiling If You Hear Me Fall.

Helen Reddy ---
I Am Woman, Hear Me Snore.

Leslie Gore---
It's My Procedure, and I'll Cry if I want To.

And Last but NOT least...

Willie Nelson ---
On the Commode Again.

509 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:04:35pm

re: #505 Tom Reagan

Just doesn't seem that horrifying to teach evolution with some rational caveats that give the student something to worry about.

What rational caveat? So far you haven't presented one.

510 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:04:47pm

re: #499 Tom Reagan

Dude I'm not a creationist. Geez. Just ask. Right-wing social politics/religion depresses me, more and more lately. Going to church is downright embarassing now and I've had to cut way back.

Not a creationist! I love it! You guys kill me with this routine.

511 The Curmudgeon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:05:18pm

re: #499 Tom Reagan

Dude I'm not a creationist.

Check's in the mail.
I'll respect you in the morning.
I'm not a creationist.

512 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:05:28pm

The Santee clause.

513 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:05:35pm

re: #508 Racer X

LOL Helen Reddy! She blow up good!!

514 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:05:48pm

re: #492 Charles

It's like the old days. Sniff. I'm getting nostalgic.

And I've got bigger fish to fry. Unquestioned evolution is merely annoying - abortion doctor / census worker murderers, wild conspiracy theories (a la Limbaugh) and Obama-hecklers are offensive, unamerican, and desturctive to our way of life.

515 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:06:15pm

re: #508 Racer X

Heh. I laugh now, but will live it soon enough.

516 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:06:33pm

re: #505 Tom Reagan

Just doesn't seem that horrifying to teach evolution with some rational caveats that give the student something to worry about.

What rational caveats, and whose?
Which version of creation should be taught?
Which version will be the officially accepted version for the textbooks?
What will I tell my kid when she tells me "our" version is not the officially accepted version?

Why would anyone want a science teacher teaching some bureaucratic version of faith?

517 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:06:48pm

re: #510 Charles

Not a creationist! I love it! You guys kill me with this routine.

After a while it gets that you see the next line coming. Note that neither of them answered my scientific explanation of the two questions they brought up. Just moved on like it wasn't there...

It's also like that in the AGW threads...

518 shiplord kirel  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:14pm

Evolution in action? Almost.

Men crossed two zoo fences prior to tiger encounter

The Calgary Zoo says two 27-year-old men snuck onto zoo grounds Monday morning and climbed over the public safety fence surrounding a tiger exhibit, where one man suffered serious arm injuries.

Zoo officials held a news conference on Monday to discuss the details of the bizarre incident which happened at about 1:00 a.m. local time.

Presumably the mauled arm will not keep this idiot from reproducing, eventually. The other idiot was not injured at all, more's the pity. Now imagine the likely outcome of this kind of foolishness on the gene pool of our prehistoric ancestors.

519 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:15pm

re: #514 Tom Reagan

Unquestioned evolution is merely annoying

As a scientific theory evolution is constantly tested. Get a grip, man!

520 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:19pm

re: #505 Tom Reagan

What Caveats would those be?

521 Tom Reagan  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:32pm

good conversation - goodnight

522 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:40pm

What the hell is that guy talking about?

523 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:46pm

re: #514 Tom Reagan

And I've got bigger fish to fry. Unquestioned evolution is merely annoying - abortion doctor / census worker murderers, wild conspiracy theories (a la Limbaugh) and Obama-hecklers are offensive, unamerican, and desturctive to our way of life.

Nice try!

524 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:49pm

re: #504 jaunte

He was an "only a theory" man:
[Link: ncseweb.org...]

Shoot. I wonder what made him change his mind about pushing for it to be taught in classrooms across the nation? Did he get the secret Air Force briefing on Roswell NM? Take a tour of Area 51? Nancy drag him into a seance?

/I liked Reagan

525 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:07:53pm

re: #503 LudwigVanQuixote

Perhaps all we scientists need is an add campaign with really buff cowboys and bikers and other manly men driving electric cars... wait that sounds a little too erm manly, particularly if they are wearing chaps...wrong stereotype... Perhaps all we need is an add campaign with paunchy, balding, middle aged white guys driving really fast electric cars and then really attractive younger women, who would never otherwise give them the time of day, notice them for being cool and eco-conscious...

There's always the National Electric Drag Racing Association.

526 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:08:14pm

re: #514 Tom Reagan

And I've got bigger fish to fry. Unquestioned evolution is merely annoying - abortion doctor / census worker murderers, wild conspiracy theories (a la Limbaugh) and Obama-hecklers are offensive, unamerican, and desturctive to our way of life.

Unquestioned... like you mean no one has questioned it since Darwin suggested it?

I think science has been questioning it and examining it since... oh, let's give it a round number... the 2nd October of 1836.

527 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:08:31pm

re: #524 Racer X

I think after he was elected, he didn't need to push it any more.

528 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:08:32pm

Someone just posted a link to the non-commie bible on my facebook page. He's from my church. He knew I would find it nonsensical.

529 TheRealThing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:08:45pm

Well, that seems to be that. Will attempt to find a safe subject some other day. Big day tomorrow. First Tuesday.

530 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:08:59pm

Well that was kind of anticlimactic.

531 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:09:06pm

Now look what you've done. Ya'll are sooo suspicious!

532 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:09:34pm

re: #531 tradewind

The pattern was so familiar.

533 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:10:08pm

re: #521 Tom Reagan

/golfclap

534 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:10:35pm

I think that was a 'hit and run.'

535 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:10:42pm

re: #514 Tom Reagan

And I've got bigger fish to fry. Unquestioned evolution is merely annoying - abortion doctor / census worker murderers, wild conspiracy theories (a la Limbaugh) and Obama-hecklers are offensive, unamerican, and desturctive to our way of life.


Keep this up and you will achieve the dumbest post on LGF for the month of Oct..Work it baby...
Fish fry on Isle 4...mmm
/Half time..Great Monday night game Lizards...

536 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:10:57pm

M-O-O-N! That spells...

537 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:11:29pm

re: #532 jaunte

Couldn't it just be from watching too much Fringe?

538 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:11:29pm

re: #536 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

M-O-O-N! That spells...

OMG WORST MOVIE EVER. I was so pissed.

539 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:12:00pm

re: #535 HoosierHoops

Couldn't believe they ripped the ball out of Peterson's hands!

540 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:12:10pm

re: #517 LudwigVanQuixote

After a while it gets that you see the next line coming. Note that neither of them answered my scientific explanation of the two questions they brought up. Just moved on like it wasn't there...

It's also like that in the AGW threads...

So bagua, you see telling them the science in the most respectful tones has no effect. They go away thinking that they have appeared as equals in a scientific debate. One thing I do agree with Dawkins on in terms of presentation, is to show the twits no mercy.

541 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:12:51pm

re: #525 Liberal Classic

That's actually pretty badass.

542 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:13:31pm

re: #536 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

M-O-O-N! That spells...

Oooh! MOON!. Be back in a bit...

543 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:13:42pm

re: #538 marjoriemoon

OMG WORST MOVIE EVER. I was so pissed.

Helluva book though.

544 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:14:23pm

arggg clouds, storm coming.. no moon tonight.

545 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:14:44pm

re: #518 shiplord kirel
Seriously... we had that happen at our zoo a year or so ago... three teenagers who were smoking weed and harassing the animals, and then one of them jumped the moat. Not such a good outcome as your link... the kid was killed, and the lawyers just descended on the zoo...
It was totally the punks' fault, tragic as it was.

546 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:14:50pm

Slightly OT:

I was in grad school about 20 years ago and remember a Russian talking about his daughter's school curriculum. She was a 2nd or 3rd grader. He was complaining, "They sing songs!" I didn't leave for Russia, but the guy had a good point.

547 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:15:49pm

re: #543 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Helluva book though.

I just finished watching the greatest movie of all time "Shakes the Clown."

548 John Neverbend  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:15:54pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

I think Derbyshire is out, unless his recently expressed wish to roll back women's suffrage was a joke. It was hard to tell.

Oh bleed. When and where did he say that?

549 walkman  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:16:10pm

re: #540 LudwigVanQuixote

So bagua, you see telling them the science in the most respectful tones has no effect. They go away thinking that they have appeared as equals in a scientific debate. One thing I do agree with Dawkins on in terms of presentation, is to show the twits no mercy.

I'm not sure if that was directed to me, but from a spiritual perspective, I don't have a scientific alternative. If someday science proves we evolved from the soup, I'll accept it. It doesn't otherwise change anything for me.

550 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:16:39pm

re: #545 tradewind

Yeah... but weren't we kind of glad the tiger "killed him a lot"... Well, it is a Darwin thread.

551 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:16:49pm

I'm disappointed. These new creationists we're getting at LGF have nowhere near the stamina of a "Spar Kling" or Richard L. Kent, the world's angriest creationist. Who's indoctrinating these weak sisters, anyway?

552 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:16:56pm

re: #547 Walter L. Newton

Oh. My. God.

553 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:17:23pm

re: #532 jaunte

I did have to laugh at the thing about nothing increasing being allowed into disorder...that was kind of asking for it...

554 cat-tikvah  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:18:00pm

You know, the answer to parents who "passionately believe" in Biblical creationism already exists, and has the further bonus of providing an education that will likely never require the tender offspring of such parents to ever hear or learn anything that deviates from their truth. It's called "private religious education" or "Christian home-schooling".

/Maybe they don't have this in Florida?

/Tell you what, I think that a case for teaching creationism in public school should be considered -- but if, when, and only if all its proponents agree on which Bible/branch of Christianity is the definitive true one.

555 jaunte  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:18:02pm

re: #551 Charles

Whatever happened to Spar Kling? I think he went away owing you a reference link.

556 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:18:03pm

re: #543 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Helluva book though.

Really? I would never be able to get through it. The movie started out amazingly and then fell off the cliff.

557 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:18:34pm

re: #550 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You know, it was awful, but those punks had been seen on the security cameras before, throwing soda cans and harassing the big cats... then to jump in there...it just boggles.
Darwin indeed...

558 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:19:06pm

After digging up Brit in Japan's Creationist Playbook I've determined the plays used by Tom Reagan:

3. The screen.
"You cannot prove life sprang from nothing. / They haven’t recreated life in a lab!"
Counterplay: Wrong argument (again and again). You are talking about biogenesis. The facts of evolution do not explain how life came into existence in the beginning, so scientists do not even try to explain it (though some do have atheist hypothesis). This is exactly why Christians accept the facts of evolution as well as God being the creator.

4. The run and shoot.
"Irreducible complexity! / Cambrian Explosion! / Transitional forms! / Other canard!"
Counterplay: Easily blitzed (they are all directly quoted from Deception Institute websites), and Charles / Sal / Sharmuta have the links where they have been destroyed. The purpose here is not to convince any lizards (far too thorough!), but just to repeat the lies often enough perhaps to sow some confusion in occasional, less-well-informed readers. It can be a lengthy process as they ignore each refutation and just leap into the next lie, with getting the last word in as the objective, so we can just wait for Sal. Or use Ludwig's hammer.

9. The white flag.
"I'm not a creationist."
Counterplay: Well, you must be happy now that we have pointed out how you say and believe exactly the same lies, so you can accept the facts of evolution now.

10. The utter surrender.
"Well, I have to go take the giraffe for a walk now (etc)."
Counterplay: You win. Reset for the next evolution thread.

He used all 4 of these plays. I've got to head home (I'm at my parent's house). BBIAB

559 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:19:16pm

re: #549 walkman

I'm not sure if that was directed to me, but from a spiritual perspective, I don't have a scientific alternative. If someday science proves we evolved from the soup, I'll accept it. It doesn't otherwise change anything for me.

How can you say "If someday science proves we evolved from the soup, I'll accept it" and at the same time say "I don't have a scientific alternative."

You're confused. Which is it?

560 wiffersnapper  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:19:56pm

re: #439 rwmofo

4-0, like the Broncos!

561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:20:22pm

re: #556 marjoriemoon

It is Stephen Kings masterpiece.

I thought it was wonderful.

A few of his books translated well to the screen. The problem with "The Stand" is it is 800 pages long, wouldn't translate into a two hour feature film so was made into a 16 hour miniseries... teh suckage were bad.

562 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:20:37pm

re: #552 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. My. God.

What's wrong?

563 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:21:07pm

re: #549 walkman

If someday science proves we evolved from the soup, I'll accept it. It doesn't otherwise change anything for me.


I wasn't really directing at you. However, I do have a serious question.

Science has very clearly in hundreds - even millions of ways proved beyond any doubt that life evolved "from the soup" as you put it. This has honestly been a closed case (the question of did all life on earth evolve from simpler common ancestors) for over 100 years. We just keep adding more and more evidence.

What evidence would it take for you to accept the science? Very seriously. If the mountains - not even mountains - mountain ranges of evidence for evolution don't convince you, what will?

564 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:21:08pm

re: #546 rwmofo

Just to be clear... he thought the singing indicated that the curriculum was not teaching them anything at that age? I mean, there's music class... glee...

565 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:21:39pm

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

What's wrong?

Nuthin...

566 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:21:58pm

re: #560 wiffersnapper

Wow. That was a mean curve ball you just threw - like I'm supposed to remember something from 40 minutes ago.

567 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:22:02pm

re: #545 tradewind

Seriously... we had that happen at our zoo a year or so ago... three teenagers who were smoking weed and harassing the animals, and then one of them jumped the moat. Not such a good outcome as your link... the kid was killed, and the lawyers just descended on the zoo...
It was totally the punks' fault, tragic as it was.

There was a pretty extensive discussion about that here at LGF, iirc. I could find it if I could remember the approximate date.

568 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:22:03pm

re: #565 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nuthin...

Didn't you like "Shakes the Clown?"

569 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:22:08pm

re: #561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is Stephen Kings masterpiece.

I thought it was wonderful.

A few of his books translated well to the screen. The problem with "The Stand" is it is 800 pages long, wouldn't translate into a two hour feature film so was made into a 16 hour miniseries... teh suckage were bad.

I've read pros and cons about the book which, even the cons, made me want to read it. But like I say, I know I'd never get through it.

570 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:22:27pm

re: #561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is Stephen Kings masterpiece.

I thought it was wonderful.

A few of his books translated well to the screen. The problem with "The Stand" is it is 800 pages long, wouldn't translate into a two hour feature film so was made into a 16 hour miniseries... teh suckage were bad.

I love the premise at any rate.

571 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:22:59pm

re: #549 walkman

I'm not sure if that was directed to me, but from a spiritual perspective, I don't have a scientific alternative.

Well, at least you're honest that you don't have a clue.

If someday science proves we evolved from the soup, I'll accept it. It doesn't otherwise change anything for me.

Which soup is that? Chicken noodle or beef barley?

I love beef barley.

572 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:23:30pm

If we taught math the way the creationists want to teach science:

That's right, kids, the Pythagorean theorem. Works every time - unless there's no right angle in the triangle. Then it doesn't work. Makes you think, doesn't it? Maybe the great Pythagoras was missing something. Or hiding it? We'll never know for sure, but it just goes to show that the value of π might be 3, after all, like it says in the Bible.

For your homework, show three ways Pythagoras could be wrong if π = 3.

573 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:23:42pm

re: #561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is Stephen Kings masterpiece.

I thought it was wonderful.

A few of his books translated well to the screen. The problem with "The Stand" is it is 800 pages long, wouldn't translate into a two hour feature film so was made into a 16 hour miniseries... teh suckage were bad.

The MFTV wasn't too bad... I know the director... Mick Garris...

574 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:23:44pm

re: #564 tradewind

Just to be clear... he thought the singing indicated that the curriculum was not teaching them anything at that age? I mean, there's music class... glee...

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was his point. I assume he wasn't talking about music class. Russia has had some pretty good musicians. Tchaikovsky comes to mind.

575 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:23:49pm

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

What's wrong?

Bobcat Goldthwait had a very funny stand up bit (once)...
"In the delivery room the doctor asked me if I wanted to cut the umbilical cord. I said, 'Is there anyone else in the room a little more qualified than me?"

576 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:23:51pm

Creationists in one thread, climate change deniers in another. We're rocking tonight.

577 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:24:08pm

Any Beatles fans?

Beatles Tube

Every song on Youtube in one spot.

578 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:24:30pm

re: #561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It is Stephen Kings masterpiece.

I thought it was wonderful.

A few of his books translated well to the screen. The problem with "The Stand" is it is 800 pages long, wouldn't translate into a two hour feature film so was made into a 16 hour miniseries... teh suckage were bad.

I thought the first 200 pages of the Stand when everyone was dying off were the most freaky awesome writing King has ever done. However, the morality tale that followed left me quite flat. It seemed like two novels stuck disjointly together.

I much prefered It or The Talisman overall.

579 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:25:32pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

True, but in Bauer's defense He does not bring that up in the article itself. Though that doesn't fully justify the headline.

It could be that Bauer didn't write the headline. That's often left to editors, in the dead tree press.

580 John Neverbend  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:25:37pm

re: #216 Ojoe

"I'm for toleration, and for drinking at an inn,"

—Captain Stratton.

Be Back Later.

That's my nic!

581 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:25:54pm

re: #578 LudwigVanQuixote

Loved "The Talisman". You could tell which was written by whom.

582 wiffersnapper  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:26:16pm

re: #566 rwmofo

Sorry, I drop in and out of chat. Actually it's surprising I even came back for a 2nd post in a comment thread!

583 Racer X  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:26:20pm

I got some new deodorant. The instructions said "Remove Cap and Push Up Bottom." I can barely walk; but when I fart, it smells amazing!

584 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:26:50pm

re: #578 LudwigVanQuixote

Didn't get into "It", but, Pennywise was a scary MFer.

585 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:27:10pm

re: #573 Walter L. Newton

The MFTV wasn't too bad... I know the director... Mick Garris...

It was a complete let down. It made no sense. I was so thrilled to watch it. I read so much about it. The first few parts were awesome, but the last half looked like they threw it together to just get it over with.

586 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:28:17pm

re: #572 Cato the Elder

If we taught math the way the creationists want to teach science:

That's right, kids, the Pythagorean theorem. Works every time - unless there's no right angle in the triangle. Then it doesn't work. Makes you think, doesn't it? Maybe the great Pythagoras was missing something. Or hiding it? We'll never know for sure, but it just goes to show that the value of π might be 3, after all, like it says in the Bible.

For your homework, show three ways Pythagoras could be wrong if π = 3.

Actually, the Pythagorean theorem always generalizes to higher dimensions, and you only ever need one right angle (in the embedded triangle). The only way it is an issue is if your space is not flat.

WAIT A MINUTE!!! He was hiding something... Damn pagans!

587 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:28:19pm

re: #561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I kind of liked the mini series. It made me re-read the book and I haven't been into Stephen King probably since the 80s. I think I stopped reading him when I read It and The Tommyknockers and they were pretty much the same book.

588 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:28:26pm

re: #551 Charles

I'm disappointed. These new creationists we're getting at LGF have nowhere near the stamina of a "Spar Kling" or Richard L. Kent, the world's angriest creationist. Who's indoctrinating these weak sisters, anyway?

LOL
You got to hand it to old Kent..He was pretty inventive with his remarks..
I always laughed at his sorry ass...But that boy came out swinging his sword like a ( Deleted) ...
Gosh those days when Cog would post his MSN crap everybody was on the floor laughing...That was fun...
Kent paraded as a Man of God..That was very angry and Hateful and full of ego.. It would have be more fun to play his ass but it was tragic to see his soul...The ugliness of his posts...The disdain of his tone...

589 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:28:27pm

re: #584 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't get into "It", but, Pennywise was a scary MFer.

I loved It. And Carrie (the book). Christine.

590 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:28:48pm

re: #569 marjoriemoon

I've read pros and cons about the book which, even the cons, made me want to read it. But like I say, I know I'd never get through it.

Don't deny yourself!

591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:29:01pm

re: #568 Walter L. Newton

Didn't you like "Shakes the Clown?"

Was known as the "Citizen Kane of Alcoholic Clown Movies"...
(got that from IMDB)

592 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:29:27pm

re: #567 Shiplord Kirel

You know what... that wasn't even here... I was confusing reading about it happening in SFO with an article our zoo ran about increasing security...

593 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:30:18pm

Farve is whipping the damn ball all over the place!

594 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:30:20pm

re: #590 bratwurst

Don't deny yourself!

lol I don't finish books. It's a terrible thing. I can read online all night and I do, but I can't finish books.

595 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:30:59pm

re: #577 Racer X

Any Beatles fans?

Beatles Tube

Every song on Youtube in one spot.

Pirate's treasure, thanks! My very first musical memory is seeing The Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show.

596 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:31:06pm

re: #576 Charles

Creationists in one thread, climate change deniers in another. We're rocking tonight.

Maybe Reverend Moon is paying a bonus on Mondays.

597 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:31:06pm

re: #594 marjoriemoon

I listen to books. I drive 60-70 thousand miles a year.

598 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:31:23pm

re: #584 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #589 marjoriemoon

This may be hokey, but to this day, my fav King movie adaptation is Running Man. And yes I know how it deviated from the story.
Though Pet Semitary rocked also.


I think now overall though my fav King Novel for lit value is Misery and I should honorable mention Salem's Lot. But It is still my fav.

599 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:32:05pm

re: #593 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Farve is whipping the damn ball all over the place!

This is awesome...Recording it!

600 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:32:13pm

OT: I just got the first two of a four-volume set of old Russian folk songs performed by the great Zhanna Bichevskaya. These are old recordings from the seventies. Brings back great memories of vodka, papyrosi and learning Russian.

Then I go online and learn that since the collapse of the USSR she's become a flaming nationalist kook. She even has an album called Na etnicheskoi voinye - "In the ethnic war."

It's as if Joan Baez were now singing about killing Muslims for fun and profit.

How sad.

601 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:32:58pm

re: #593 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Farve is whipping the damn ball all over the place!

On the play before the TD he had time to make a quick phone call before he threw the ball.

602 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:33:03pm

re: #591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was known as the "Citizen Kane of Alcoholic Clown Movies"...
(got that from IMDB)

Well, the last time I watched it, I was drunk as hell (well, in those days I was drunk most of the time). This time I was sober. Still a damn funny movie.

603 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:34:09pm

re: #598 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #589 marjoriemoon

This may be hokey, but to this day, my fav King movie adaptation is Running Man. And yes I know how it deviated from the story.
Though Pet Semitary rocked also.

I think now overall though my fav King Novel for lit value is Misery and I should honorable mention Salem's Lot. But It is still my fav.

Oh yes! Boy I forgot all those. Tommyknockers, Mad Al mentioned upthread another fav.

604 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:34:32pm

re: #602 Walter L. Newton

Well, the last time I watched it, I was drunk as hell (well, in those days I was drunk most of the time). This time I was sober. Still a damn funny movie.

Yeah, it is a very funny movie. Didn't Robin Williams play the mime? And it featured a young Adam Sandler.

605 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:34:36pm

re: #576 Charles

Creationists in one thread, climate change deniers in another. We're rocking tonight.

Where are there new AGW deniers cropping up... me go hunting...

606 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:35:27pm

I read pretty much all of King's books that he wrote in the 70s and 80s when I was in middle school. Which may explain why I turned out the way I did. ;)

607 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:35:32pm

Anyone remember this story.. Lizards Rapidly Evolving

Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.


Its shows that mutations can be directed by environment, and they aren't necessarily random. That point alone (the "not all mutations are random" one) is enough to set off a pretty good debate.

608 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:36:32pm

re: #605 LudwigVanQuixote

Where are there new AGW deniers cropping up... me go hunting...

Hunters know these things.

609 hokiepride  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:36:33pm

The Old GOP Reagan coalition is dead and buried. The Conservative movement can choose, either the theocon fundies and stacy mccain types or the Buckley-Goldwater conservative. One leads to a strong rebirth, the other leads to a crushing 2012 defeat and permanent oblivion.

610 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:37:15pm

I've been watching full episodes of Red Eye on hulu and tonight I watched one with John Oates as a guest. Now I can't get "Maneater" out of my head. I guess I should listen to some AC/DC or Tom Waits to cure that.

611 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:37:33pm

re: #606 Mad Al-Jaffee

What's the horrible one about the plane that keeps flying around and people keep getting slaughtered? I never could sit through the entire thing...

612 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:37:53pm

re: #310 tom reagan

It sure seems to me evolution as a scientific fact belongs in science class. No need to try to teach it in a bible class. So-I see no reason for religion to crash the science class party. Leave it out.

Religion(s) with all their glory or baggage belongs in classes about religion and philosophy. This way a student has all the right lessons in all the appropriate places and (Crucial!) contexts. Origins of man or the universe can be taught in effect twice-as each discipline sees it. Science for children on up. Just as we will be taught the old scientific theories and their replacements, by grad school we might have been through classes on various religious beliefs. Anyone else remember Hoyle and his "steady state" theory?

Since parents have the option to teach their kids subjects early as they wish, surely religion/philosophy classes can wait until later grades or college. Most of us eventually challenge our parents beliefs sooner or later. Thats not bad, its growth. Include the richness of each, the errors of each, the lessons of each in its place.

613 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:38:17pm

re: #609 hokiepride

The Old GOP Reagan coalition is dead and buried. The Conservative movement can choose, either the theocon fundies and stacy mccain types or the Buckley-Goldwater conservative. One leads to a strong rebirth, the other leads to a crushing 2012 defeat and permanent oblivion.

One slight problem is that Buckley and Goldwater are dead. Who's carrying the flag?

614 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:38:45pm

re: #611 tradewind

What's the horrible one about the plane that keeps flying around and people keep getting slaughtered? I never could sit through the entire thing...

I don't think I've read that one. It might be one of the dozens he wrote after I stopped reading him.

615 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:38:56pm

re: #605 LudwigVanQuixote

Where are there new AGW deniers cropping up... me go hunting...

Phil at Bad Astronomy continues to just rip on the antivaxxers on the Net..
He is a monster proclaiming the truth and calling out Jenny on her Ilk..
He consistently takes time out of his Blog ( He worked on the Hubble for 10 years) To post authors, Scientists and Doctors to debunk the AntiVaxxers..
Kudo's Phil!

616 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:39:08pm

Ok Everyone -

Were I voting in Florida, in the Republican Primary, I too would vote for RUBIO.
I have advised my FL relatives to do the same if he wins the Primary. I take the ED KOCH approach, where I agree with a candidate on 80-low90's% - I vote for them. At 100%, I consult a Psychiatrist. I am a man of faith that sees evolution as part of the "plan." (Silly Me?). Classroom science curriculum is something a US Senator will have LITTLE effect upon. Fiscal and Foreign Policy,
MUCH MORE. On those issues, from what I have seen, I trust RUBIO's instincts more than Gov. Crist. In an Ideal world, Rubio would have sat this one out and become the NEXT Governor of Florida. He chose not to, as in 1981 I as well chose not to abandon a NJ State Assembly Primary Run - AND - I will be up front enough to admit that I was offered vague future promises to quit. I didn't - had the promises been a real deal, I do not know what I would have done. Perhaps that is why I understand RUBIO so well. I wish him the best of luck. That is all.

-S-

617 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:39:17pm

re: #602 Walter L. Newton

Really? It is funny. I haven't seen a "Larry the Cable Guy" movie either. Am I being a snob?

618 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:39:57pm

re: #610 Mad Al-Jaffee

At least you didn't get the earworm ' Single Ladies (the put -a- ring- on- it thing)' after watching an episode of Glee
Do you have any idea how annoying it is to walk around hearing Beyonce and that idiotic song for four or five days?

619 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:40:01pm

re: #603 marjoriemoon

Oh yes! Boy I forgot all those. Tommyknockers, Mad Al mentioned upthread another fav.

Tommyknockers scared the crap out of me. I happened to be in Maine at the time, which made it worse.

Turning your dog into a living electric battery? Jeepers.

620 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:40:40pm

re: #616 Dr. Shalit

Seems rational to me.

621 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:40:49pm

re: #616 Dr. Shalit

I take the ED KOCH approach, where I agree with a candidate on 80-low90's% - I vote for them. At 100%, I consult a Psychiatrist.

Now thats funny.

622 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:40:50pm

re: #613 Mich-again

One slight problem is that Buckley and Goldwater are dead. Who's carrying the flag?

No one. At least no one in power. The closest they got to that is Powell, and he is out and happily out.

623 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:41:02pm

re: #551 Charles

I'm disappointed. These new creationists we're getting at LGF have nowhere near the stamina of a "Spar Kling" or Richard L. Kent, the world's angriest creationist. Who's indoctrinating these weak sisters, anyway?

Overfishing, Charles. We ate all the big ones.

624 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:41:02pm

re: #611 tradewind

The Langoliers?

625 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:41:04pm

re: #602 Walter L. Newton

Well, the last time I watched it, I was drunk as hell (well, in those days I was drunk most of the time). This time I was sober. Still a damn funny movie.

Watching it now on Netflix Instant. Any movie you can like both drunk and sober is worth a try.

626 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:41:17pm

re: #618 tradewind

At least you didn't get the earworm ' Single Ladies (the put -a- ring- on- it thing)' after watching an episode of Glee
Do you have any idea how annoying it is to walk around hearing Beyonce and that idiotic song for four or five days?

I've never actually heard that song and I can't even name a song by Beyonce.

627 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:42:01pm

re: #604 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, it is a very funny movie. Didn't Robin Williams play the mime? And it featured a young Adam Sandler.

Yep... Williams was uncredited... went by the name Marty Fromage.

628 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:42:02pm

The hate mails are getting angrier as the night goes on. Just got one from an admirer in Minnesota who thinks I'm lying about the increase in LGF's traffic, and faking the numbers somehow.

As if I have nothing better to do. It's really getting under their skin that despite all the smearing and the hatred, our traffic is rising.

629 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:42:09pm

re: #619 Cato the Elder

Tommyknockers scared the crap out of me. I happened to be in Maine at the time, which made it worse.

Turning your dog into a living electric battery? Jeepers.

Ooo The Shining. Pet Semetary. Needful Things (loved it).

630 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:42:28pm

re: #625 Cato the Elder

Watching it now on Netflix Instant. Any movie you can like both drunk and sober is worth a try.

Good luck (you'll need it).

631 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:42:31pm

re: #546 rwmofo

Slightly OT:

I was in grad school about 20 years ago and remember a Russian talking about his daughter's school curriculum. She was a 2nd or 3rd grader. He was complaining, "They sing songs!" I didn't leave for Russia, but the guy had a good point.

That grade-school children shouldn't sing?

632 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:43:09pm

The end of Heroes tonight reminded me of the end of Carrie. Great book and movie.

633 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:43:14pm

re: #609 hokiepride

The Old GOP Reagan coalition is dead and buried. The Conservative movement can choose, either the theocon fundies and stacy mccain types or the Buckley-Goldwater conservative. One leads to a strong rebirth, the other leads to a crushing 2012 defeat and permanent oblivion.

The conservative movement can't win without the socons, unless the socons are willing to abandon all they have worked for and achieved since before the Reagan years.

634 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:43:17pm

re: #630 Walter L. Newton

That a "Mwaha" moment?

635 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:43:27pm

re: #609 hokiepride

Nope. There'll be a Reagan Redux movement sooner or later.
Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated. But look back at how the MSM reported Reagan's candidacy and his presidency, and it'll all seem so deja vue.

636 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:43:43pm

re: #624 cenotaphium

OMG/yes...

637 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:44:45pm

re: #628 Charles

The hate mails are getting angrier as the night goes on. Just got one from an admirer in Minnesota who thinks I'm lying about the increase in LGF's traffic, and faking the numbers somehow.

As if I have nothing better to do. It's really getting under their skin that despite all the smearing and the hatred, our traffic is rising.

You quoted an "LGF is worth $XXX" estimate from somewhere recently. Can one get those figures for, say, Atlas? That would have to be a hoot.

638 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:45:30pm

re: #634 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That a "Mwaha" moment?

Mime Class Instructor: (Robin Williams) Everybody get ready to fry our bacon... Ready?... Here we go!... Raise 'em! And we go suck in the little pork belly and... FRY! C'mon Chuck... we want to fry off that little fat ass of yours! FRY!... FRY!... FRY!... Chuckie! C'mon everbody, let's sizzle! We're gonna sizzle off little pork but, aren't we? Fry yourself... Let the heat work through you! Shake your meat, Chuck!. You've got a roll of quarters... make some change! There we go! Now you're burnin'!... Now you're on fire! Shake your money-maker!

639 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:45:51pm

re: #631 SanFranciscoZionist

That grade-school children shouldn't sing?

Really. WTF? Or they don't sing in Russia, they just memorize the list of Czars?

640 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:46:35pm

re: #615 HoosierHoops

Phil at Bad Astronomy continues to just rip on the antivaxxers on the Net..
He is a monster proclaiming the truth and calling out Jenny on her Ilk..
He consistently takes time out of his Blog ( He worked on the Hubble for 10 years) To post authors, Scientists and Doctors to debunk the AntiVaxxers..
Kudo's Phil!

Well, believe it or don't I do have a life outside of LGF, however much I may love you guys.

However, this blog is huge. It is read by many many people and it will only grow.

Since I know, I do not think, I do not believe, I know from the science that we are currently heading towards a global calamity if nothing changes, I take a lot of my time to post AGW here.

The best analogy I have for the situation is five people tied together on a train track with an oncoming locomotive. The only way they can get out of the way is if at least three of them try to move.

Right now, some are arguing about if there is a train, others think they can pay the train to go on a different track and the scientists, and not enough others, are yelling to start moving already.

The only way this gets fixed is if we all fix it.

I take my intense unpopularity in the comments of other right wing blogs as a sign that I am getting through to this way.

641 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:46:37pm

OT

Several centuries ago, during the heyday of Japanese swordsmanship, the emperor decreed a nation-wide competition to determine the best swordsman in Japan. For months would-be champions showed their skill in exacting local tournaments. Finally, only 3 contestants were left. Such was the importance of the event that the emperor himself would administer the final test.

The first contestant entered the great hall and bowed to the monarch. Without a word, the emperor took out a tiny box and opened it. A fly emerged and buzzed across the hall. The swordsman knew what was expected. He drew his sword instantly and smote the air with a mighty "THWACK!" The fly fell to the floor in two pieces. The emperor nodded approval, the swordsman bowed and returned to the ante-chamber.

The second contestant then entered the hall and bowed. The emperor took out another box and another fly buzzed across the room. This swordsman took not one, but two mighty swings; "THWACK! THWACK!" and this fly fell on the floor in FOUR pieces. The emperor allowed himself an appreciative smile and the swordsman bowed and left.

The third and final contestant then entered. Again, a fly was released. Instead of a mighty swing, this swordsman made only a lazy jab. The fly continued to buzz away toward the door and freedom. The emperor frowned.

Undaunted, the swordsman spoke, "So, your majesty, I guess that makes ME the greatest swordsman in all Japan!"

Furious, the emperor said, "Of all the impudence! Your fly still lives!"

"That is true, revered one," the swordsman responded, "The fly still lives, but he will no longer reproduce."

642 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:47:38pm

re: #621 Mich-again

Now thats funny.

Mich-again -

It is a fairly accurate paraphrase of something the former Mayor actually said.

-S-

643 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:47:53pm

re: #615 HoosierHoops

Phil at Bad Astronomy continues to just rip on the antivaxxers on the Net..
He is a monster proclaiming the truth and calling out Jenny on her Ilk..
He consistently takes time out of his Blog ( He worked on the Hubble for 10 years) To post authors, Scientists and Doctors to debunk the AntiVaxxers..
Kudo's Phil!

I was listening to Robert Kennedy Jr. yesterday. He's an AntiVaxxer too!

644 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:48:51pm

G'night Mary Ellen...
(not a flounce)

645 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:49:15pm

re: #631 SanFranciscoZionist

That grade-school children shouldn't sing?

It just occurred to me, I must film this...

To the tune of internationale, we get a bunch of cute kids singing how Obama will save America from the capitalist scourge of AGW and keep them safe from evil religious hatred by taking guns from nasty cowboys.

Can you imagine the head pop effect if you made this like it was real?

646 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:49:26pm

re: #613 Mich-again

One slight problem is that Buckley and Goldwater are dead. Who's carrying the flag?

And even if they weren't dead, could they have prevented the predominance of the socons in the conservative movement? Not in my opinion. Did Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter sell all those books simply because they filled a vacuum? I think that is where the movement was inevitably headed.

647 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:49:35pm

re: #628 Charles

The hate mails are getting angrier as the night goes on. Just got one from an admirer in Minnesota who thinks I'm lying about the increase in LGF's traffic, and faking the numbers somehow.

As if I have nothing better to do. It's really getting under their skin that despite all the smearing and the hatred, our traffic is rising.

Charles -

An INCREASE in numbers shows active and lively debate. And the Downside to that is..?

-S-

648 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:50:48pm

re: #615 HoosierHoops

Phil at Bad Astronomy continues to just rip on the antivaxxers on the Net..
He is a monster proclaiming the truth and calling out Jenny on her Ilk..
He consistently takes time out of his Blog ( He worked on the Hubble for 10 years) To post authors, Scientists and Doctors to debunk the AntiVaxxers..
Kudo's Phil!

I really like Phil! He can be so infectiously passionate, kind of like an astronomy bent Adam Savage. I wish he'd do more of the "questions from kids" bits; they went over really well when I showed them to a niece of mine.
Not to mention the good work he does with JREF.

Phil Plait answering astronomy questions from kids:

649 researchok  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:52:06pm

Most people in denial over climate change, according to psychologists

The majority of people in Britain are in denial about the risk of global warming in our lifetimes, according to a new study into the psychology of climate change.

The Met Office has warned that if the world continues to burn fossil fuels at the current rate temperatures will rise above four degrees C in the next fifty years.

This will cause sea level rise, droughts, floods and mass collapse of eco-systems.

However Clive Hamilton, Professor of public ethics at the Australian National University, said the majority of the population is still in denial about the risks of climate change.

650 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:52:35pm

re: #557 tradewind

You know, it was awful, but those punks had been seen on the security cameras before, throwing soda cans and harassing the big cats... then to jump in there...it just boggles.
Darwin indeed...

You would think that after what happened at the SF zoo a couple of years ago, people would get the idea.

651 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:52:51pm

re: #631 SanFranciscoZionist

That grade-school children shouldn't sing?

His point was they should concentrate on science and math.

652 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:53:05pm

re: #648 cenotaphium

I really like Phil! He can be so infectiously passionate, kind of like an astronomy bent Adam Savage. I wish he'd do more of the "questions from kids" bits; they went over really well when I showed them to a niece of mine.
Not to mention the good work he does with JREF.

Phil Plait answering astronomy questions from kids:


[Video]

Dude..You just got a new friend...Phil has a great blog!

653 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:53:18pm

re: #626 Mad Al-Jaffee

Then your education re pop culture is incomplete... It pains me to do this, but you gotta.
How a football teams pulls out a victory courtesy of Beyonce...

654 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:53:31pm

I have something to look forward to this week - the South Park season premiere Wednesday night.

655 Van Helsing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:54:11pm
656 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:55:34pm

More new world order conspiracy news at The Drudge Drugged Report. This one reads:

ARABS PLOT TO DROP DOLLAR

That leads to a story at The Independent titled The demise of the dollar: In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading.

It's written by quasi 911 truther Robert Fisk. On 911 he has written:

"because, of course, to look too closely at the Middle East would raise disturbing questions about the region, about our Western policies in those tragic lands, and about America's relationship with Israel."

I am increasingly troubled at the inconsistencies in the official narrative of 9/11.

Partly I think because of the culture of secrecy of the White House, never have we had a White House so secret as this one. Partly because of this culture, I think suspicions are growing in the United States, not just among Berkeley guys with flowers in their hair[...] But there are a lot of things we don’t know, a lot of things we’re not going to be told[...] perhaps the plane was hit by a missile, we still don’t know...
657 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:55:45pm

Wow, stalker blog used my friend's art without permission!

658 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:55:46pm

re: #635 tradewind

Nope. There'll be a Reagan Redux movement sooner or later.
Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated. But look back at how the MSM reported Reagan's candidacy and his presidency, and it'll all seem so deja vue.

Didn't Reagan help foster the socon's prominence? I think the only major differences between Reagan and most socon Republican politicians today are Reagan's personal abilities and attributes.

659 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:55:57pm

re: #653 tradewind

Then your education re pop culture is incomplete... It pains me to do this, but you gotta.
How a football teams pulls out a victory courtesy of Beyonce...

I made it through about 1:10 of that clip. Thanks, I think.

660 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:56:57pm

re: #571 Charles

Which soup is that? Chicken noodle or beef barley?

I love beef barley.

"This was after stew. But everything is after stew. When man first crawled out of the primordial slime, he had stew for dinner that night."

--William Goldman

661 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:58:25pm

re: #649 researchok

Most people in denial over climate change, according to psychologists

researchok -

Might that be because AGW rhetoric is shrill and apocalyptic?, because from what they see in their day to day lives seems to be good old fashioned WEATHER?, because what they have seen so far from AGW proponents DEMANDS a reduction in their material lifestyle? Discussion?

-S-

662 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:58:37pm

re: #656 Gus 802

I looked into that one today too. The dollar won't be the world currency forever. The Russians and Chinese bitching is nothing new. Were are they going to go? The Ruble? The Yuan? The Euro? Gold? Combine all the alternatives and you still have bullshit.

663 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:59:42pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

I looked into that one today too. The dollar won't be the world currency forever. The Russians and Chinese bitching is nothing new. Were are they going to go? The Ruble? The Yuan? The Euro? Gold? Combine all the alternatives and you still have bullshit.

The Yuaerouble

664 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 7:59:53pm

re: #658 Flyers1974

Didn't Reagan help foster the socon's prominence? I think the only major differences between Reagan and most socon Republican politicians today are Reagan's personal abilities and attributes.

I will never be confused with a Reagan fan, but I think the differences are far greater than that.

665 researchok  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:00:05pm

re: #661 Dr. Shalit

researchok -

Might that be because AGW rhetoric is shrill and apocalyptic?, because from what they see in their day to day lives seems to be good old fashioned WEATHER?, because what they have seen so far from AGW proponents DEMANDS a reduction in their material lifestyle? Discussion?

-S-

I agree wholeheartedly.

666 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:00:16pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

I looked into that one today too. The dollar won't be the world currency forever. The Russians and Chinese bitching is nothing new. Were are they going to go? The Ruble? The Yuan? The Euro? Gold? Combine all the alternatives and you still have bullshit.

Yes. If not bullshit more hype from the frenzied crowds.

667 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:00:33pm

re: #574 rwmofo

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was his point. I assume he wasn't talking about music class. Russia has had some pretty good musicians. Tchaikovsky comes to mind.

When I was in fourth-fifth grade, we wrote a song for each science unit. And sang it. It was part of getting ready for the test. Worked a treat, except that any mention of the words "optic nerve" has started me humming for the past twenty-five years.

668 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:00:49pm

re: #658 Flyers1974
I'd say he was more remembered for that Berlin Wall thing, and then there was the dismantling of the entire Soviet Union, and... just little stuff like that.

669 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:00:51pm

re: #656 Gus 802

Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading.

If true, that would be interesting but not in a good way.

670 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:01:29pm

re: #654 Mad Al-Jaffee

I have something to look forward to this week - the South Park season premiere Wednesday night.


Dude The first time I every saw South Park I went to my folks house and sat down and they were laughing about this Cartoon with little kids cursing..
I'm sitting there laughing nervously For a half hour wondering at what point we have them committed...Mom and Dad are watching Cartoons..At what point do I call Medicare?

671 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:02:14pm

re: #659 Mad Al-Jaffee

Aww, you quit just when it was getting good...
:)

672 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:03:03pm

re: #628 Charles

The hate mails are getting angrier as the night goes on. Just got one from an admirer in Minnesota who thinks I'm lying about the increase in LGF's traffic, and faking the numbers somehow.

As if I have nothing better to do. It's really getting under their skin that despite all the smearing and the hatred, our traffic is rising.

I can tell that traffic is up in this way: Over the years, I've frequently linked to items on one of my own blogs, say like this: Freaknik! I'll then revel in the resulting lizard-lanche, as people click through to see. I've noticed that the number of visitors from LGF through such links has been up markedly since just this summer.

673 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:03:05pm

re: #671 tradewind

Aww, you quit just when it was getting good...
:)

I think I saw enough. Now I need to get to sleep.

in bed.

674 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:03:05pm

re: #600 Cato the Elder

OT: I just got the first two of a four-volume set of old Russian folk songs performed by the great Zhanna Bichevskaya. These are old recordings from the seventies. Brings back great memories of vodka, papyrosi and learning Russian.

Then I go online and learn that since the collapse of the USSR she's become a flaming nationalist kook. She even has an album called Na etnicheskoi voinye - "In the ethnic war."

It's as if Joan Baez were now singing about killing Muslims for fun and profit.

How sad.

Oh, crap.

675 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:03:12pm

re: #661 Dr. Shalit

researchok -

Might that be because AGW rhetoric is shrill and apocalyptic?, because from what they see in their day to day lives seems to be good old fashioned WEATHER?, because what they have seen so far from AGW proponents DEMANDS a reduction in their material lifestyle? Discussion?

-S-

I think that is the answer. If the rhetoric weren't "shrill and apocalyptic," I doubt there would be any difference whatsoever regarding peoples' beliefs on the subject.

676 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:04:04pm

re: #661 Dr. Shalit

Might that be because AGW rhetoric is shrill and apocalyptic?, because from what they see in their day to day lives seems to be good old fashioned WEATHER?, because what they have seen so far from AGW proponents DEMANDS a reduction in their material lifestyle? Discussion?

I think there's as much muddying of the waters on this topic as on the evolution topic. That is, while people who actually know what's what on the topic of AGW are reasonable and level-headed, the blend of confusion, straw men and unrelated politics creates an image of uncertainty.
I've found climate change deniers to be the ones proclaiming doom and disaster, both as their re-telling of AGW points, and as the result of any attempt to reign in greenhouse gases.
It's always easier to spread fear, doubt and uncertainty than it is to answer questions and enlighten people.

677 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:04:34pm

A note by the way about the false meme that science is never closed. This is a gross oversimplification that grade school teachers pound into kids at an impressionable age, that never gets fully removed from teh general public perception.

It is true that science is always open to new data and willing to do away with cherished paradigms in the face of new evidence. SR did kill the luminiferous ether after all.

However, that does not mean that science never comes to a point, where it is essentially impossible for realistic new data to change the picture, given what we already know to be true. That does not mean that there are still not details to be worked out, however, the core theory will simply not go away, without having to re-account for absolutely everything we know in some new way that preserves all the old things that were demonstrated true and after a certain point there are so many things we know to be true that it becomes impossible to imagine anything changing the core theory at all realistically.

Does that seem shocking... Let me give some examples of closed science.

1. The Earth is not flat.

2. The Earth orbits the Sun.

3. Special Relativity.

4. Quantum Mechanics.

5. Thermodynamics

6. Evolution.

678 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:04:51pm

re: #670 HoosierHoops

My kids were tiny when I discovered South Park, and I would never have let them even here a minute of it, much less watch... But... I locked myself in my room and watched it, laughing my butt off, and feeling like I had just committed adultery whenever I emerged. Guiltiest pleasure ever.
Then, it kind of jumped the shark, went from hilariously offensive to just gross, and now there are only a few episodes that seem funny. Maybe it will have a comeback.

679 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:04:56pm

re: #662 Killgore Trout

I looked into that one today too. The dollar won't be the world currency forever. The Russians and Chinese bitching is nothing new. Were are they going to go? The Ruble? The Yuan? The Euro? Gold? Combine all the alternatives and you still have bullshit.

One problem with moving off the dollar is that you have to sell them. So if you plan to do it you have to be sekrit about it. Leaking it to Robert Fisk works against that strategy. If anything, if you want to pick up dollars for cheap you'd leak such a thing.

No one will move off dollars right away because the system is flooded with them. Most will grudgingly hold and hope for the best.

680 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:05:12pm

re: #610 Mad Al-Jaffee

Try Juke Kartel. Aussie band. Just moved to L.A. Great stuff.

681 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:05:38pm

/PIMF, ' hear' a minute of it. /

682 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:06:37pm

re: #628 Charles

The hate mails are getting angrier as the night goes on. Just got one from an admirer in Minnesota who thinks I'm lying about the increase in LGF's traffic, and faking the numbers somehow.

As if I have nothing better to do. It's really getting under their skin that despite all the smearing and the hatred, our traffic is rising.

They found out that you have been accepting grant money and are addicted to it and therefore manufacture numbers out of thin air.

/

683 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:06:48pm

re: #669 Mich-again

If true, that would be interesting but not in a good way.

Well there was this at a Reuters report:

"I don't think we will see much concrete actions coming out of such discussions because even when the dollar is weak, it doesn't mean that commodities are undervalued," said David Moore, commodities analyst at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia.

"In fact, when the dollar weakens, commodities prices tend to increase by a higher ratio."

684 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:06:53pm

re: #661 Dr. Shalit

Might that be because AGW rhetoric is shrill and apocalyptic?

I try to separate the data and analysis from the proposed solutions. I think the scientific data stands on its own. The analysis of what the data means is somewhat subjective. The proposed solutions are politics.

685 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:07:17pm

Pretty late to the discussion here, but does this Rubio guy have anything going for him OTHER than that he's a creationist? I thought Christ was in pretty good standing in the state.

686 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:08:32pm

The flounce-o-meter is giving off readings again.

687 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:08:37pm

re: #668 tradewind

I'd say he was more remembered for that Berlin Wall thing, and then there was the dismantling of the entire Soviet Union, and... just little stuff like that.

He may be remembered more for these things. For the sake of argument, I'll agree. I don't know how that disproves my previous statement about Reagan and socons.

688 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:08:48pm

re: #645 LudwigVanQuixote

It just occurred to me, I must film this...

To the tune of internationale, we get a bunch of cute kids singing how Obama will save America from the capitalist scourge of AGW and keep them safe from evil religious hatred by taking guns from nasty cowboys.

Can you imagine the head pop effect if you made this like it was real?

"Aaaand the international Obaaama unites the human race!"

Oh. I just thought of the scene in Goodbye, Lenin, where he brings the kids to sing to his mother. I love that movie.

689 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:08:55pm
690 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:08:58pm

re: #656 Gus 802

I thought they'd been talking about dropping the dollar for years?

691 cenotaphium  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:09:04pm

re: #672 The Sanity Inspector

I'll then revel in the resulting lizard-lanche, as people click through to see. I've noticed that the number of visitors from LGF through such links has been up markedly since just this summer.

But.. but.. you haven't posted consistently at the exact same time, with the same formatted link at the same place in a thread, and besides the topic of the thread will surely shift the results and correlation isn't causation and..

//

692 Gus  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:09:47pm

re: #690 Conservative Moonbat

I thought they'd been talking about dropping the dollar for years?

I think so.

693 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:10:26pm

re: #685 BryanS

I thought Christ was in pretty good standing in the state.

In most states. ;-)

694 Van Helsing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:10:29pm

re: #684 Mich-again

I try to separate the data and analysis from the proposed solutions. I think the scientific data stands on its own. The analysis of what the data means is somewhat subjective. The proposed solutions are politics bullshit.

Synonyms, but still...

695 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:12:14pm

re: #684 Mich-again

I try to separate the data and analysis from the proposed solutions. I think the scientific data stands on its own. The analysis of what the data means is somewhat subjective. The proposed solutions are politics.

This is what's frustrating for me: I just don't understand climatology very well. I am a great respecter of the power of aggregate knowledge. So, when researchers studying ice cores, retreating glaciers, migrating species, upper atmospherics, all come to the same consensus, that's not to be sneezed off. But I don't have a good grasp of if or when I'm getting played by proponents or deniers. I have a decent layman's grasp of paleontology and religion, so there's no such confusion over creationism.

696 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:12:31pm

re: #693 bratwurst

In most states. ;-)

Yeah...the only reason I can think that Rove would push this Rubio guy would be to push a creationist agenda. But I don't know enough about the political situation in Florida to know if this Rubio guy brings ANYTHING to the table and whether Christ wouldn't trounce the competition. I kinda thought Christ would be a lock for that seat.

697 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:13:31pm

re: #664 bratwurst

I will never be confused with a Reagan fan, but I think the differences are far greater than that.

Look at the issues point by point - how is Reagan different from today's GOP politician - and remember, his personal attributes don't count as they were obviously unique to him.

698 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:13:39pm

re: #683 Gus 802

Getting those characters to all dump the dollar is as likely as getting a table full of poker players to donate all their chips back to the house and walk away from the game.

699 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:14:16pm

re: #696 BryanS
Cuban - American ( Rubio) is certainly a demographic that the Republicans had in FL, have lost ground with, and would like to have back again.

700 Digital Display  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:14:48pm

re: #678 tradewind

My kids were tiny when I discovered South Park, and I would never have let them even here a minute of it, much less watch... But... I locked myself in my room and watched it, laughing my butt off, and feeling like I had just committed adultery whenever I emerged. Guiltiest pleasure ever.
Then, it kind of jumped the shark, went from hilariously offensive to just gross, and now there are only a few episodes that seem funny. Maybe it will have a comeback.

I'm writing a book.. I committed my parents after discovering them Watching South Park...An American Story...
I say shit as a kid and are punished to do my homework for a week in the bathroom..Yes...The freaking Bathroom! A few years later Cartman says shit every other word and my folks are rolling on the floor...
Life..Is not fair...

701 erraticsphinx  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:15:02pm

re: #698 Mich-again

B-b-ut you have no idea what Obama is planning !!!1!1eleventy!!1

702 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:15:53pm

re: #677 LudwigVanQuixote

A note by the way about the false meme that science is never closed. This is a gross oversimplification that grade school teachers pound into kids at an impressionable age, that never gets fully removed from teh general public perception.

It is true that science is always open to new data and willing to do away with cherished paradigms in the face of new evidence. SR did kill the luminiferous ether after all.

However, that does not mean that science never comes to a point, where it is essentially impossible for realistic new data to change the picture, given what we already know to be true. That does not mean that there are still not details to be worked out, however, the core theory will simply not go away, without having to re-account for absolutely everything we know in some new way that preserves all the old things that were demonstrated true and after a certain point there are so many things we know to be true that it becomes impossible to imagine anything changing the core theory at all realistically.

Does that seem shocking... Let me give some examples of closed science.

1. The Earth is not flat.

2. The Earth orbits the Sun.

3. Special Relativity.

4. Quantum Mechanics.

5. Thermodynamics

6. Evolution.

Isaac Asimov, may the Prime Integral preserve his memory, had a good essay on exactly that point: The Relativity of Wrong. It's a good ten minute read.

703 tradewind  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:16:07pm

re: #700 HoosierHoops

Have some more cheesey poofs, snookums.
:)

704 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:17:06pm

re: #701 erraticsphinx

B-b-ut you have no idea what Obama is planning !!!1!1eleventy!!1

Mebst! Do not hint at the secrets of Remulak! Agent Obama is acting perfectly within his brief! Do not ruin it by loose lips, or you will be denied bagels, your Zionist paycheck will be docked and you will be subject to being the test volunteer to train new probe technicians!

705 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:17:06pm

re: #696 BryanS

Was having a little fun with the Christ vs. Crist thing.

706 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:19:35pm

re: #695 The Sanity Inspector

I am a great respecter of the power of aggregate knowledge.

Agreed.

But I don't have a good grasp of if or when I'm getting played by proponents or deniers.

Or even if no one is playing you at all, but the solutions they propose just won't work or might even be counterproductive.

707 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:19:43pm

re: #699 tradewind

Cuban - American ( Rubio) is certainly a demographic that the Republicans had in FL, have lost ground with, and would like to have back again.

That certainly makes sense--especially on the heals of a retiring Mel Martinez. That could very well be the primary motivator for Rove.

708 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:20:33pm

re: #705 bratwurst

Was having a little fun with the Christ vs. Crist thing.

Heh...yeah. The Republicans would love to claim they were running the former.

709 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:20:49pm

re: #697 Flyers1974

Look at the issues point by point - how is Reagan different from today's GOP politician - and remember, his personal attributes don't count as they were obviously unique to him.

I might also add that, while I've always maintained that the US is a right-of-center country politically, people loved Reagan more than his policies - otherwise, why not Newt Gingrich? Even without the wife/hospital/divorce thing, could he have been elected POTUS? And if not, on what major points did he and Reagan differ?

710 erraticsphinx  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:21:46pm

re: #704 LudwigVanQuixote

No, my lord.

Please, not teh bagels. Praise be to Ayers, I ask you to forgive me.

711 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:22:30pm

re: #709 Flyers1974

Gingrich: no charm, there's the major diff.

712 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:24:39pm

re: #711 Ojoe

Gingrich: no charm, there's the major diff.

Agree 100%.

713 bratwurst  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:24:59pm

re: #697 Flyers1974

Look at the issues point by point - how is Reagan different from today's GOP politician - and remember, his personal attributes don't count as they were obviously unique to him.

Well I am probably not the best guy to ask around here...but I would have to confess it was his remarkable statesmanship and affability I was thinking of as setting him apart. To say these were personal attributes unique to him would be an understatement.

714 UncleRancher  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:29:33pm

re: #702 The Sanity Inspector

"2. The Earth orbits the Sun."

Strictly speaking, that's not quite true. In fact the two bodies rotate about the combined center of mass. That center of mass is located somewhere inside the sun slightly toward Seattle from the center of the sun itself.

715 hokiepride  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:30:17pm

re: #633 Flyers1974
Maybe not,
With the secularization of America,catering to the so-cons is going to lose more of the independent votes than the number of votes that can be gained from the so-cons. Socons do not have the answer to the most pressing American problems, job loss, spiralling medical and educational costs and the national debt. If Conservatives can come up with good solutions to these problems, it will win and new coalition will be born, otherwise it is finished

716 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:31:50pm

re: #709 Flyers1974

otherwise, why not Newt Gingrich?

Maybe because his name sounds too much like a lizard? Sorry there Salamantis but I fear the same fate would meet your candidacy even with my vote.

717 John Neverbend  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:32:15pm

re: #676 cenotaphium

I think there's as much muddying of the waters on this topic as on the evolution topic. That is, while people who actually know what's what on the topic of AGW are reasonable and level-headed, the blend of confusion, straw men and unrelated politics creates an image of uncertainty.

True, although I've found it's much easier to keep on top of evolution, for the simple reason that it's an established scientific theory with a ton of evidence in its favour. It's difficult to deny its validity and claim to be rational, unless you have some evidence which clearly falsifies it, or perhaps a better scientific theory. To date, neither has occurred. AGW does not have the status of a theory, although that doesn't mean that it's not correct. It's just easier to have an opinion as to whether or not it's correct without indentifying yourself as a total ignoramus.

718 ronsfi  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:34:56pm

Science is a gateway drug.

719 Mich-again  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:36:13pm

re: #714 UncleRancher

Strictly speaking, that's not quite true.

One of the creationist arguments is that "They keep changing them science textbooks!"

You are correct though. Sort of like how we eventually figured out that humans did not actually evolve from apes.

720 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:38:04pm

re: #717 John Neverbend

True, although I've found it's much easier to keep on top of evolution, for the simple reason that it's an established scientific theory with a ton of evidence in its favour. It's difficult to deny its validity and claim to be rational, unless you have some evidence which clearly falsifies it, or perhaps a better scientific theory. To date, neither has occurred. AGW does not have the status of a theory, although that doesn't mean that it's not correct. It's just easier to have an opinion as to whether or not it's correct without indentifying yourself as a total ignoramus.

I think there is more unsettled about AGW. The evidence is pretty clear that there has been warming and it is pretty clear that mankind is responsible for the increases in CO2. But I have not heard much in terms of prediction based upon any model. Maybe someone can fill in what falsifiable predictions AGW posits that have been discovered in the historical record, or have correctly predicted for the future.

721 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:43:02pm

re: #690 Conservative Moonbat

I thought they'd been talking about dropping the dollar for years?

Conservative Moonbat -

Until CHINA is willing to take the chance to allow the YUAN to appreciate to its real value - AND - make it freely convertible, NOTHING will happen.
Look at the up and coming nations and their limitations. I remember High School "World Geography" from the late 1960's as Japan rose. As our teacher NEVER let us forget - JAPAN is poor in natural mineral resources and would have to trim their sails to accommodate to that fact.
Russia is rich in mineral resources, short on population, and getting shorter.
Brazil is in another incarnation as an up and coming power - hopefully, this time it works, with a 200 Million Population as it has today, it just might.
India, also long on population, short on resources, big on R&D and NOT called a sub-continent for fun - decent shot. China, a no-brainer, plenty of people, plenty of production, short on "clean" energy resources, R&D getting better by the day. Along with the US, you are looking at tomorrow's major powers, Russia being the biggest question mark. That is my assessment.

-S-

722 Flyers1974  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:46:51pm

re: #715 hokiepride

Maybe not,
With the secularization of America,catering to the so-cons is going to lose more of the independent votes than the number of votes that can be gained from the so-cons. Socons do not have the answer to the most pressing American problems, job loss, spiralling medical and educational costs and the national debt. If Conservatives can come up with good solutions to these problems, it will win and new coalition will be born, otherwise it is finished

I'm not sure that if the socons stay as they are and with the same amount of influence, the conservative movment would be finished. George W. Bush was obviously elected and reelected. What brought the Republicans down was the occupation, the economy and I would argue people (people not committed Dems or committed Reps) being sick of 8 years of a Republican POTUS - just as people got tired of 8 years of Clinton. In my opinion, the current craziness might kill the movement - and I think the nature and degree of the current craziness is unprecidented in modern American politics. But the socons power and influence wasn't less in the Bush years, not to my knowledge. They just weren't as blatantly nuts.

723 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:49:25pm

re: #717 John Neverbend

True, although I've found it's much easier to keep on top of evolution, for the simple reason that it's an established scientific theory with a ton of evidence in its favour. It's difficult to deny its validity and claim to be rational, unless you have some evidence which clearly falsifies it, or perhaps a better scientific theory. To date, neither has occurred. AGW does not have the status of a theory, although that doesn't mean that it's not correct. It's just easier to have an opinion as to whether or not it's correct without indentifying yourself as a total ignoramus.

I think that is really only because AGW has not had 100 years to seep into the public consciousness the way evolution has. There is also the issue that unlike evolution, the real workings of the theory are highly mathematical and hence only really debatably by the few.

As such, in terms of trying to get across the particulars of AGW to people who are not closely on top o fit, we have the worst aspects of trying to popularize things like Field theory or Chaos theory, with trying to build up man multiple lines of evidence as you would with an evolution discussion.

This is not to say that everything in AGW is settled science, far from it. However, it is pretty damn near certain at this point that human forcing is the primary driver currently forcing the modern warming cycle.

The basics of AGW are very basic indeed. Shine light on GHGs and they get hot. This makes the atmosphere get hot. We are dumping gigatons of GHGs into the environment.

The notion of a feedback is also relatively intuitive. Something like less ice -> more absorption -> it gets hotter -> less ice.

Detailing the consequences of that however to full rigor is not only very difficult to get across but the science is not yet mature enough to make a full prediction of how bad and when it really kicks in. We can be certain that it will reach a tipping point. We can be certain the process is happening now. We can be certain that sooner or later as we go forward we will loose the caps if we do not change things. However saying exaclty how bad by what date is still something we can only give bands of likely for.

However, and it is important to note, that the lowest end predictions, the "nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end.

The middle road predictions really are the end of civilization as we know it. The worst case scenarios are wrath of G-d.

724 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:51:55pm

re: #710 erraticsphinx

No, my lord.

Please, not teh bagels. Praise be to Ayers, I ask you to forgive me.

Mebst! Do not mention agent Ayers!

You will only be given blueberry bran bagels from from a goyshe supermarket bakery as a penance for two months.

725 Van Helsing  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:53:47pm

re: #724 LudwigVanQuixote

Mebst! Do not mention agent Ayers!

You will only be given blueberry bran bagels from from a goyshe supermarket bakery as a penance for two months.

Boy, are you strict.

726 Achilles Tang  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:55:31pm

re: #720 BryanS

I think there is more unsettled about AGW. The evidence is pretty clear that there has been warming and it is pretty clear that mankind is responsible for the increases in CO2. But I have not heard much in terms of prediction based upon any model. Maybe someone can fill in what falsifiable predictions AGW posits that have been discovered in the historical record, or have correctly predicted for the future.

My opinion is that the historical record, meaning all of it, is irrelevant given that there can be and have been different reasons for changes in the past. The only relevance is what effects levels of CO2 have had; but not their causes.

Either it can be proven that humans are responsible for this one or not, and there is ample evidence that it can be proven, or some other cause must be identified, which is not the case as far as I understand (moonbat explanations disregarded).

727 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 8:57:49pm

re: #725 Van Helsing

Boy, are you strict.

Look helping to run an intergalactic planetary occupation is not an easy job.

Everyone want to talk... Drop hints.. Show they are on the inside...

Look at this from the Beasties...

I mean it isn't as if they aren't obviously Jewish and all and why do they need to talk about the giant kill bots!

728 BryanS  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 9:02:30pm

re: #726 Naso Tang

My opinion is that the historical record, meaning all of it, is irrelevant given that there can be and have been different reasons for changes in the past. The only relevance is what effects levels of CO2 have had; but not their causes.

Either it can be proven that humans are responsible for this one or not, and there is ample evidence that it can be proven, or some other cause must be identified, which is not the case as far as I understand (moonbat explanations disregarded).

I can't think that the historical record is irrelevant. The historical record can be used to calculate what affect CO2 has had on the global temperature. I think there is very little doubt that humans are driving CO2 increases. What affect CO2 has, and to what extent warming can be attributed to it is very relevant.

729 Bagua  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 9:25:11pm

re: #723 LudwigVanQuixote

[...]We can be certain that it will reach a tipping point. We can be certain the process is happening now. We can be certain that sooner or later as we go forward we will loose the caps if we do not change things. However saying exaclty how bad by what date is still something we can only give bands of likely for.

However, and it is important to note, that the lowest end predictions, the "nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end.

The middle road predictions really are the end of civilization as we know it. The worst case scenarios are wrath of G-d.


Whose this "we" paleface? You never do tire of misrepresenting probabilities as certainties do you?

""nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end."

So now there is not even a possible outcome that is less than collapse?

You just get shriller and more alarmist as the night goes on.

730 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 9:27:56pm

re: #723 LudwigVanQuixote

I think that is really only because AGW has not had 100 years to seep into the public consciousness the way evolution has. There is also the issue that unlike evolution, the real workings of the theory are highly mathematical and hence only really debatably by the few.

As such, in terms of trying to get across the particulars of AGW to people who are not closely on top o fit, we have the worst aspects of trying to popularize things like Field theory or Chaos theory, with trying to build up man multiple lines of evidence as you would with an evolution discussion.

This is not to say that everything in AGW is settled science, far from it. However, it is pretty damn near certain at this point that human forcing is the primary driver currently forcing the modern warming cycle.

The basics of AGW are very basic indeed. Shine light on GHGs and they get hot. This makes the atmosphere get hot. We are dumping gigatons of GHGs into the environment.

The notion of a feedback is also relatively intuitive. Something like less ice -> more absorption -> it gets hotter -> less ice.

Detailing the consequences of that however to full rigor is not only very difficult to get across but the science is not yet mature enough to make a full prediction of how bad and when it really kicks in. We can be certain that it will reach a tipping point. We can be certain the process is happening now. We can be certain that sooner or later as we go forward we will loose the caps if we do not change things. However saying exaclty how bad by what date is still something we can only give bands of likely for.

However, and it is important to note, that the lowest end predictions, the "nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end.

The middle road predictions really are the end of civilization as we know it. The worst case scenarios are wrath of G-d.

One of the real problems is that the right is being deliberately obtuse about global warming, insisting it's not an issue, while the left is using it as a cynical ploy to raise taxes and gain more control, while the rational scientists and other in the middle are caught with neither side listening to them, and sensible ideas to if not combat global warming, at least make things better for America.

731 acwgusa  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 9:30:12pm

re: #730 acwgusa

One of the real problems is that the right is being deliberately obtuse about global warming, insisting it's not an issue, while the left is using it as a cynical ploy to raise taxes and gain more control, while the rational scientists and other in the middle are caught with neither side listening to them, and sensible ideas to if not combat global warming, at least make things better for America.

And still others don't care because in their words "We'll be long gone by the time Arizona has beachfront property, so who cares?"

732 jvic  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 9:43:51pm

re: #683 Gus 802

Well there was this at a Reuters report:
"I don't think we will see much concrete actions coming out of such discussions because even when the dollar is weak, it doesn't mean that commodities are undervalued," said David Moore, commodities analyst at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia.

"In fact, when the dollar weakens, commodities prices tend to increase by a higher ratio."

Maybe the risk premium of hard assets increases when the world currency looks wobbly.

I'm sure that a lot of people are nervous about valuing the world economy in terms of Bush/Obama dollars. Whether they'll wait for days or decades to take action, I don't know.

With plausible reason, the Right has been deriding Robert Fisk as a prototype of the leftist with a civilizational death wish. Now that he delivers bad news on Obama's watch, it will be interesting to see if he is suddenly treated as an unimpeachable source.

733 mikhailtheplumber  Mon, Oct 5, 2009 10:05:00pm

I haven't been able to read all comments, so my point might have been already made. Anyway: Doesn't anyone among the creationists think of the damage teaching creationism or ID would do to American education? Seriously, the country is already lagging behind compared to Europe, Japan, and possible a whole other bunch of countries. But this? This would ensure that the US loses its edge on biological sciences, and possible the rest too.

I'd question their patriotism. Of course, I'm not American, so why would I?

734 SixDegrees  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:20:03am

re: #677 LudwigVanQuixote


1. The Earth is not flat.

What does this have to do with science? Although accusing someone of believing the earth is flat is a favorite pastime on the Internet, I haven't found any evidence that anyone in the last couple thousand years, at least, has actually believed such a thing - and even then, it was some tiny religious group in the Middle East whose ideas, including this one, never gained any traction with...well, anyone, apparently.

In short, the matter was settled over a millennia before anything even resembling science ever got off the ground - quite probably several millennia. It didn't require science to make this determination.

As for the rest: weak. They're either too broad or too inappropriate to qualify. Relativity is certainly an improvement on Newtonian mechanics, but there's no guarantee that it won't also turn out to be an approximation itself, only to be superseded by something both more exact and just as fundamentally different from relativity as relativity is from Newton's models. And "evolution" is simply meaningless - what sort of evolution are you referring to here? Darwinian? Lamarckian? The current creationist view, which allows for some change, but denies speciation? Punctuated equilibrium? Like "quantum mechanics," it's broad to the point of being meaningless.

Straw men and poor examples built on a sandy foundation of implicit absolutism that is antithetical to what science is all about.

735 SixDegrees  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:24:21am

re: #733 mikhailtheplumber

I haven't been able to read all comments, so my point might have been already made. Anyway: Doesn't anyone among the creationists think of the damage teaching creationism or ID would do to American education? Seriously, the country is already lagging behind compared to Europe, Japan, and possible a whole other bunch of countries. But this? This would ensure that the US loses its edge on biological sciences, and possible the rest too.

I'd question their patriotism. Of course, I'm not American, so why would I?

They don't care. The goal of creationists, in fact, is to destroy science - all science - and replace it with faith-based education. Look up the Wedge Document for a glimpse at their long-term plan - the abolition of evolution is only a small step for them. The long term plan is the establishment of a theocratic government, and the indoctrination of children through the subordination of the public school system into a nationwide collection of Christian madrassas is a key part of that plan.

These people are crazy and dangerous, and pose a grave internal threat to the nation and all it stands for.

736 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:33:51am

re: #729 Bagua

So now there is not even a possible outcome that is less than collapse?

You just get shriller and more alarmist as the night goes on.

You know, I am really getting tired if the you are my buddy, and then turning around and insulting me routine. I have posted the real mathematics as to why tipping points must exist numerous times. That is the actual science.

It is also certain that if you get enough plutonium into a small enough space, bad things happen too. That too is actual science.

So rather than perpetuating this foolish dance, how about we do it scientifically. My claim is that tipping points must exist. If they must exist, it is neither shrill nor alarmist to state that truth.

Since I have posted ample evidence for this argument in numerous places, it is your turn to say something substantive as to why it is not so. Why is it alarmist to say they must exist? What is wrong with the statement that they must exist?

Please do me the courtesy of attacking the claim with a real argument rather than calling it names or complaining that you don't like to hear it said as strongly as the situation warrants. I really don;t care what you think of the language. Time for you to talk actual science. Either that or listen when the physicist tells you it is so and read the evidence he brings you.

737 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:41:38am

re: #734 SixDegrees

And you. I am also getting tired of your postings and quibbling with everything I say.

It was once a hotly debated idea about the shape of the Earth. It turns out it is ruond and that also this a fact that will not go away. The same is true of the Earth's orbit, or relativity or any of the other theories I mentioned.

Relativity is not going away. It is manifestly inherent in all physical theories that have also borne fruit and it is proven every time you flip a light switch.

It also fits.

As per Quantum mechanics, you are clearly being very dense. Exactly what will make the Schroedinger equation go away? I am quite clear when referring to the different sorts of Quantum theories. If you are going to lecture me about saying that QM is too broad as if you know what you are talking about, then you would know that if someone just says QM, they are likely only talking about non-relativistic QM. Though to be certain, the Klien Gordon equation and QED are not going anywhere either.

Thermodynamics is a pretty well established subject - you know that thing with those three laws. WOuld you care to tell me how that might ever go away?

Straw men and poor examples built on a sandy foundation of implicit absolutism that is antithetical to what science is all about.

What kind of weak minded crap is this? I actually made a completely clear point. If you actually knew these subjects, you would see that. Six, I tire of your debating just for the sake of trolling me.

738 Hawaii69  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:26:30am

re: #538 marjoriemoon

OMG WORST MOVIE EVER. I was so pissed.

Besides the goofy portrayal of Randall Flagg, I thought they did a pretty good job. They didn't focus nearly enough on the government evil/coverup either...and everyone is Vegas being portrayed as a hardhat wearing fascist was silly too.

Just a few changes here and there would have made a big difference.

739 Hawaii69  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:43:48am

re: #734 SixDegrees


In short, the matter was settled over a millennia before anything even resembling science ever got off the ground - quite probably several millennia. It didn't require science to make this determination.

Of course it required science. How could anyone conclude that the earth was not flat wihtout applying the Scientific Method.

Doesn't matter if they actually called it "science", or called it anything at all.

The steps of the Scientific Method are:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is
consistent with what you have observed.
3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and
modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between
theory and experiment and/or observation.


No one decided, with any degree certainty, that the Earth was round
without applying this methodology. They may not have been conscious of the methodology, or had a name for it, but this is how they would have come to their conclusion.

740 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 2:48:35am

re: #736 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig,

Try not to panic so much when someone criticizes you. I said “you never tire of misrepresenting probabilities as certainties do you?” and you wrote all that?

My point stands and you have not refuted it by telling me that enough plutonium will blow up or a gun shot to the head will kill. Apples and oranges. If I tell you that if you keep blowing up a bubble it will burst, does that somehow prove I’m right?

Your certainty of events 90 years from now is worrying, the papers you link to speak in terms of probabilities, you speak in absolutes. It is grade school knowledge that a 90% probability is not a certainty.

741 ama055131  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 4:55:42am

I live here in florida and did vote for Gov. Christ but I am having a tough time supporting him, this is a man that would have voted for the stimulus package, cap and trade and is true believer in man made global warming. That said, I really don't know enough about Mr. Rubio to make a honest opinion about him yet, but should I find the only knock on him is his views on creationism I may have to switch my vote for him.

742 JEA62  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 5:49:59am

“Of course, I’m not equating the evolution people with Fidel Castro"

He just did.

743 Achilles Tang  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 6:11:00am

re: #728 BryanS

I can't think that the historical record is irrelevant. The historical record can be used to calculate what affect CO2 has had on the global temperature. I think there is very little doubt that humans are driving CO2 increases. What affect CO2 has, and to what extent warming can be attributed to it is very relevant.

I think I said that above. perhaps I misunderstood you originally, but many make the argument that "this has happened before people, so people can't be the cause".

744 Lee Stafford  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 6:32:09am

--One of the first things taught in logic is that a negative can't be proved.
--Immanuel Kant said that you can’t prove the existence of God, but you can’t prove that He doesn’t exist, either.
--If Creationism is taught in schools, it should be taught in philosophy, anthropology, literature, or one of the social sciences.
--If Evolution is taught in schools, it should be taught in science, but ONLY as a theory with all its holes, contradictions, and misalighments.
--Science and the Bible support each other. Science tells how, the Bible tells why.
--The zoological progression in the biblical story of the creation is: invertebrates, fish, birds, amphibians/reptiles, mammals, humans.

745 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 6:45:03am

re: #741 ama055131

I live here in florida and did vote for Gov. Christ but I am having a tough time supporting him, this is a man that would have voted for the stimulus package, cap and trade and is true believer in man made global warming. That said, I really don't know enough about Mr. Rubio to make a honest opinion about him yet, but should I find the only knock on him is his views on creationism I may have to switch my vote for him.

I hope you enjoy helping the democrats win the general election then.

746 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 9:12:57am

re: #744 Lee Stafford

If Evolution is taught in schools, it should be taught in science, but ONLY as a theory with all its holes, contradictions, and misalighments.

Which "holes, contradictions, and misalignments" are those?

And you do understand that the scientific meaning of "theory" is not the same as a "hunch" or a "guess," right? In science, a theory is a coherent explanation for a phenomenon, backed up by research and experimental data.

Evolution itself is a fact, as much of a fact as gravity.

747 Interested and concerned CDN  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 9:29:58am

linchpin words are the problem...all around. the worst of which are :

Inspired and literal.

748 Interested and concerned CDN  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 9:40:37am

re: #746 Charles

Exactly! If we have a series of numbers, say 1,2,3,4,?,6,?,8,9, you will note 2 "holes" in the data, but we all know what those data points are and we can express the way we arrived at those data points. overly simple perhaps.

749 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 9:53:32am

re: #740 Bagua

Ludwig,

Try not to panic so much when someone criticizes you. I said “you never tire of misrepresenting probabilities as certainties do you?” and you wrote all that?

My point stands and you have not refuted it by telling me that enough plutonium will blow up or a gun shot to the head will kill. Apples and oranges. If I tell you that if you keep blowing up a bubble it will burst, does that somehow prove I’m right?

Your certainty of events 90 years from now is worrying, the papers you link to speak in terms of probabilities, you speak in absolutes. It is grade school knowledge that a 90% probability is not a certainty.

On the contrary Bagau, my claim, that you called histrionic was that tipping points exist and that we are definitely heading towards one. The questions of probably come in as to when we hit one. The is not a question of does it exist. This is not grade school knowledge and your tone continues to insult.

So again, the claim is that tipping points must exist. This is actually well demonstrated.

If you wish to claim that it is grade school knowledge that we can not say they exist for sure - even if we do not know exactly where they are yet, then you need to refute it.

So give it your best shot.

750 ama055131  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 10:02:12am

re: #745 funky chicken
Apparently you did not comprehend what I said so I will restate it. I did vote for Mr. Christ but most of his ideals are more in line with the thinking of a democrat and I don't know enough about Mr. Rubio to make a fair decision. But please don't chastise me for trying to make the best decision
for the best GOP candidate in our state, as far as the democratic candidate Kendell Meeks he has no shot.

751 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:04:27am

re: #749 ludwigvanquixote

On the contrary Bagau, my claim, that you called histrionic was that tipping points exist and that we are definitely heading towards one. The questions of probably come in as to when we hit one. The is not a question of does it exist. This is not grade school knowledge and your tone continues to insult.

So again, the claim is that tipping points must exist. This is actually well demonstrated.

If you wish to claim that it is grade school knowledge that we can not say they exist for sure - even if we do not know exactly where they are yet, then you need to refute it.

So give it your best shot.


Nope, I won’t play ‘move the goal post’ every time we kick the ball around.

I didn’t take exception with “the claim is that tipping points must exist.”

I challenged your assertion that: "the "nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end."

You are saying that there is no possible outcome less than this in the time frame you mention. That is a faith based alarmist statement, not science.

752 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:16:29am

re: #751 Bagua

Nope, I won’t play ‘move the goal post’ every time we kick the ball around.

I didn’t take exception with “the claim is that tipping points must exist.”

I challenged your assertion that: "the "nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end."

You are saying that there is no possible outcome less than this in the time frame you mention. That is a faith based alarmist statement, not science.

ON the contrary. IPCC is the lowest end of the spectrum. If only IPCCC comes to pass it is a catastrophe. This is not a faith based statement. This is the science.

To make your claim have meaning, rather than just being insulting, have some science of your own to show that if IPCC comes to pass things will be OK.

If you do not have such science of your own to bring you do not have an argument, and I will thank you to stop insulting the science I am bringing you by calling it names.

753 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:18:46am

re: #751 Bagua

Also, if you are not objecting to the tipping point, I misread what your objection was.

Since however you do accept that tipping points exist and that we actually are heading for them, what are the consequences of crossing one? That said, how is that not a global catastrophe.

I'm sorry Bagua, you might have noticed that I take this very seriously. I am not going to have you claim that the science is faith. That is astonishingly rude.

So now it really is your turn to bring some science of your own to refute me, or to simply stop snarking.

754 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:25:14pm
ON the contrary. IPCC is the lowest end of the spectrum. If only IPCCC comes to pass it is a catastrophe. This is not a faith based statement. This is the science. To make your claim have meaning, rather than just being insulting, have some science of your own to show that if IPCC comes to pass things will be OK.

I never said “things will be OK,” (red herring) you are the one certain of the exactly events 90 years from now. You are certain that ""nicest" part of possible outcomes, is still an eventual environmental collapse, and still creates intolerable conditions by century's end."

The IPCC doesn’t speak in such certainties, it uses language such as “it is likely" (>66%) or even “very likely" (>90%) But you report these probabilities as 100% certainties, scientists don’t do that, you do. And the IPCC gives a wide range of predictions, the lowest end is not “a catastrophe” or “intolerable conditions by century’s end.” That is Alarmism. In fact, the lowest range is that they are wrong, something they allow for.

If you do not have such science of your own to bring you do not have an argument, and I will thank you to stop insulting the science I am bringing you by calling it names.

Is that like insulting Turkishness? I am not ‘insulting’ or even challenging ‘the science,’ I am challenging your reporting of it as exaggerated. I think I’ve been pretty clear about that, but you desperately want to re-frame my words.

Also, if you are not objecting to the tipping point, I misread what your objection was.

I am objecting to reporting probable, or possible, or likely events as certain, and the misuse of forward projections.

Since however you do accept that tipping points exist and that we actually are heading for them, what are the consequences of crossing one? That said, how is that not a global catastrophe.

I'm sorry Bagua, you might have noticed that I take this very seriously. I am not going to have you claim that the science is faith. That is astonishingly rude.
So now it really is your turn to bring some science of your own to refute me, or to simply stop snarking.


I never said ‘the science is faith’ that is your straw man, I said your reporting of it was faith based alarmism. You have certainty were there is uncertainty, you have faith. It is no different from those who are certain of resurrection, or heaven and hell, no, we can not rule out those things, but to consider them certain indicates faith, not knowledge.

755 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:42:26pm

pimf: You have certainty were where there is uncertainty,

756 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:46:10pm

re: #754 Bagua

No you said that the statements I make about the coming catastrophe, if we do not alter course are faith.

I am not going to get bogged down in yet another insipid semantic discussion. This blog thrives on that crap, and I am very tired of it.

Bottom line I am making substantiated claims and you continue to belittle them by calling them names. I am tired of it. So here is a set of claims:

I claim that the science shows that the minimum projections IPCC, still represent a global catastrophe.

I claim that it is certain that IPCC was a minimum projection because it does not take ice melts or bog releases, into account properly. Therefore, whatever does happen must be worse than IPCC.

Therefore. If the minimum case is already a calamity, then the real case which must be worse, will be a worse calamity. This is basic logic.

If you have something to refute it, like better science of you own, then bring it.

Otherwise, stop going on about how you characterize the science I bring, and actually bring some science of your own. This is about the ninth iteration of this dance I've played with you. How about you stop the BS?

757 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:19:25pm

re: #755 Bagua

pimf: You have certainty were where there is uncertainty,

Back that up.

758 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 4:27:24pm
No you said that the statements I make about the coming catastrophe, if we do not alter course are faith.


Wrong, I said your statements on the probability of the “coming catastrophe” are faith based, I have no problem with what is said by the actual papers written by actual scientists. They all state their predictions, degree of confidence, known and unknown variable, and so on. None of them claim to have a crystal ball that gives them certainty, only you and other alarmists do that.

I am not going to get bogged down in yet another insipid semantic discussion. This blog thrives on that crap, and I am very tired of it.


Well there’s an easy solution to that, for my part, I quite enjoy this blog and its discussions, I especially enjoy debating with those I disagree with and with those who challenge my positions. If you are so :”very tired” as you keep asserting over and over again, then perhaps you are overextending yourself, posting too much.

Bottom line I am making substantiated claims and you continue to belittle them by calling them names. I am tired of it. So here is a set of claims:
I claim that the science shows that the minimum projections IPCC, still represent a global catastrophe.


Wrong, read the IPCC, they allow for a minimal margin of uncertainty from a minimum of 1% to 10% and greater on all predictions, they do not claim certainty.

I claim that it is certain that IPCC was a minimum projection because it does not take ice melts or bog releases, into account properly. Therefore, whatever does happen must be worse than IPCC.


Wrong again, you used the words “certain” and “must,” you are adding certainties to probabilities again. I fully accept that there are good papers now which are addressing such considerations as the accelerated ice melts, bog releases and such. They are valid to cite as considerations, as possibilities of varying degree of likely-hood, you uniquely see them as certain destiny.

Therefore. If the minimum case is already a calamity, then the real case which must be worse, will be a worse calamity. This is basic logic.
If you have something to refute it, like better science of you own, then bring it.


Wrong again, the minimum case in the time frame we are discussing – this century – would be no or minimal measurable effect, that is at least a 1% chance and likely much higher as many of the predictions carry only a 66% probability in the IPPC.

Otherwise, stop going on about how you characterize the science I bring, and actually bring some science of your own. This is about the ninth iteration of this dance I've played with you. How about you stop the BS?


Wrong again, I don’t “characterize the science” it is what it is and I accept it as written, I characterize your misrepresentation of the science in terms of probabilities, in that you relate things as certain that are at best, highly likely and often only likely or possible. How about you stop the BS and all the emoting?

As I do give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are indeed what you represent yourself as, the only conclusion that I can make is that you have gone overboard and have formed pseudo-religious beliefs that colour your interpretations. The other alternative is that you are a student and just inexperienced, it is common for example for first year medical students to imagine they have a variety of physical and mental ailments they read about, before they fully understand diagnosis and medicine.

re: #755 Bagua

pimf: You have certainty were where there is uncertainty,

Back that up.

Simple, I mistakenly wrote “were” in place of “where”, thus my correction is accurate and backed up.

759 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 4:56:51pm

re: #758 Bagua

I am very disappointed to hear such foolishness from you.

1. IPCC most certainly does not predict effects by centuries end that are minimal or easily managed. Also, as I have kept saying again and again,, the science is very firm that IPCC is an utterly low ball estimate.

2. I have not said a single thing which is wrong.

3. We are absolutely, without doubt, without error, heading for a radically changed environment and climate on Earth. This process is visible even now. This is beyond doubt. The only question is how bad how soon, and I have been very clear that there is uncertainty in that.

4. However, there is no reading of how bad how soon that is not catastrophic by the end of the century if things do not change.

5. Because you have difficulty with this concept, I will define catastrophic as loss of growing land, loss of fresh water supplies, spread of contagion and loss of land to the oceans. Even lowball estimates by 2100 are not thing that would be easily fixed by any technology we currently have. Further, you forget that CO2 stays up there for centuries. We are committing to further changes as we continue to pump GHG into the atmosphere.

Therefore, if we do not change course, and by some miracle IPCC is the only sort of changes that happen - and we know that will not be the case!- we would still be committed to far worse.

Therefore, as I keep saying, if we do not change course, it is a certainty that there will be an ecological collapse sooner or later.

The best guess I can make from all of the things I have read is a 3 meter rise in 100-150 years. If that happens that is check mate.

If I am off by a factor of 3 and it is only one meter, it is still check mate.

Your inability to understand that there is such a thing as a bounded space of outcomes and that none of them is good continues to astonish me.

It is at this point that I ask you to seriously read any of the dozens of links I have posted and to stop, just stop with the arguments about how you feel about what I am saying, and instead learn that what I am saying is backed by substance.

760 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 6:35:31pm

re: #759 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig,

Debating with you is like talking to a stone wall. You simply can not debate using reason, you just skirt the actual topic and launch off into the ether setting up straw man arguments. Good luck with that. Any rational person can see that I have demonstrated my point and you have not refuted it.


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