Ready … Set … Now Count Those Words!

Politics • Views: 3,932

Here’s George Will, taking a break from distorting and misrepresenting climate science to promote the latest right wing talking point: Barack and Michelle Obama are malignant narcissists.

Will proves this by counting words in their Copenhagen speeches. This isn’t simply a weak argument; it’s not an argument at all. It’s an empty, silly, meaningless exercise that proves absolutely nothing, except how desperate people like Will are becoming.

Both Obamas gave heartfelt speeches about … themselves. Although the working of the committee’s mind is murky, it could reasonably have rejected Chicago’s bid for the 2016 Games on aesthetic grounds — unless narcissism has suddenly become an Olympic sport.

In the 41 sentences of her remarks, Michelle Obama used some form of the personal pronouns “I” or “me” 44 times. Her husband was, comparatively, a shrinking violet, using those pronouns only 26 times in 48 sentences. Still, 70 times in 89 sentences conveyed the message that somehow their fascinating selves were what made, or should have made, Chicago’s case compelling.

Here are some even more damning word frequencies than those uncovered by brainiac George Will: in President Obama’s speech, he used the word “we” no less than 24 times, “us” 5 times, and “our” 10 times!

Socialism! Collectivism! We’re doomed! [Run around screaming…]

UPDATE at 10/6/09 11:38:54 am:

Here’s another well-known speech, clearly given by a malignant narcissist of the first order:

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.”

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

(Hat tip: Killgore.)

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337 comments
1 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 10:58:01am

"We" are amused by this.

(there's one, George! what do you read into that?)

2 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 10:59:18am

This what Bugs Bunny thinks about George Will and all the current waste of time attacks that we the right are giving when we should focus on more substantive issues:

3 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:00:23am

Forty-four! Forty-Four instances of George Will grasping at straws! Ah-Ah!

4 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:00:28am

I remember an "experiment" performed about 100 or so years ago, in an attempt to "prove" that Shakespeare's plays were actually written by Francis Bacon, which involved counting the number of letters in each work and then dividing by the number of words.

It turned out that Shakespeare used a lot more four-letter words than Bacon.

5 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:01:42am

I understand your point, Charles, but it is still surprisingly poor style to use "I" and "me" that much unless the topic is explicitly autobiographical. I have to wonder about the speech writers (assuming the Obamas did not write these themselves). If there had been a chance of winning, it would have been better to use "YOU" and "THEY" to show what Chicago could *give*. Fine points of style may indeed not mean much, but this is equivalent to writing a letter in which every paragraph starts with "I." It just rubs people the wrong way.

6 tom112  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:02:15am

Like Jon Stewart said, regarding conservatives cheering Chicago's Olypimpics loss, conservatives now hate Obama more than they like America!

7 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:02:30am

I note that Will uses the word "and" 13 times in the space of 70 lines. So there.

8 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:02:46am
9 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:03:07am

re: #7 John Neverbend

I note that Will uses the word "and" 13 times in the space of 70 lines. So there.

It's a conjunction conspiracy!

10 ckb  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:03:11am

He's right about one thing - both speeches really were bad. Seriously, they stunk. The speech Obama gave at the UN was significantly better written and delivered.

11 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:03:21am



document.write("Count words");

If input..$
Then
Parse words..
while X=Y
Then lprint
" Current wacky GOP Talking points"
end if

12 MinisterO  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:03:25am

I though the President's speech was appropriate. Objecting to the use of the word "I" in the context below is just silly.


And so I urge you to choose Chicago. I urge you to choose America. And if you do, if we walk this path together, then I promise you this: The city of Chicago and the United States of America will make the world proud.

The first lady's speech I didn't care for. I can see how some people might cringe. It's no surprise that the usual feces-throwing monkeys are all over it.

13 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #5 dentate

I understand your point, Charles, but it is still surprisingly poor style to use "I" and "me" that much unless the topic is explicitly autobiographical. I have to wonder about the speech writers (assuming the Obamas did not write these themselves). If there had been a chance of winning, it would have been better to use "YOU" and "THEY" to show what Chicago could *give*. Fine points of style may indeed not mean much, but this is equivalent to writing a letter in which every paragraph starts with "I." It just rubs people the wrong way.

Quote:

I come here today as a passionate supporter of the Olympic and Paralympic Games; as a strong believer in the movement they represent; and as a proud Chicagoan. But above all, I come as a faithful representative of the American people, and we look forward to welcoming the world to the shores of Lake Michigan and the heartland of our nation in 2016.

It doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. The only person who could possibly be offended by that kind of speech is a hardcore partisan, looking for offense.

14 clgood  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:04:03am

Let's try this thought experiment:

Assuming, hypothetically, that Obama were a narcicistic, America-hating Marxist, what would he be doing differently?

15 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:04:12am

re: #5 dentate

I understand your point, Charles, but it is still surprisingly poor style to use "I" and "me" that much unless the topic is explicitly autobiographical. I have to wonder about the speech writers (assuming the Obamas did not write these themselves). If there had been a chance of winning, it would have been better to use "YOU" and "THEY" to show what Chicago could *give*. Fine points of style may indeed not mean much, but this is equivalent to writing a letter in which every paragraph starts with "I." It just rubs people the wrong way.

If one is speaking before an audience and giving an endorsement of an idea, using the position of President as representing the US, it is not surprising at all that he would use the words "I" and "me". This is really grasping at straws and encouraging the rabid followers to do the exact same thing ad nauseum, thinking that it is 'real' analysis.

Pathetic.

16 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:04:31am

re: #13 Charles

It doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. The only person who could possibly be offended by that kind of speech is a hardcore partisan, looking for offense.

But none of that is going on at the moment.
/

17 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:04:35am

This is getting asinine. Counting words is really silly and dumb no matter how one slices it. All it does is to make the work counter look like an ass.

18 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:05:12am

This is silly on Will's part, silly of anyone who thinks counting certain words are proofs of some underlying secret motives or pathology. The whole word count thing is grasping straws. And I've seen the left trying to nitpick at speeches in a similar way. All of it a waste of time.

19 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:05:35am

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
Oh, Noes!

20 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:05:35am

re: #11 HoosierHoops

document.write("Count words");

If input..$
Then
Parse words..
while X=Y
Then lprint
" Current wacky GOP Talking points"
end if

OH NO! I used real Javascript in that post...You can't see the rest of the joke..
*facepalm*

21 McSpiff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #14 clgood

Let's try this thought experiment:

Assuming, hypothetically, that Obama were a narcicistic, America-hating Marxist, what would he be doing differently?

O! O! I know this one... It's the funny hats thing right?

22 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:06:18am

re: #15 Dreader1962

If one is speaking before an audience and giving an endorsement of an idea, using the position of President as representing the US, it is not surprising at all that he would use the words "I" and "me". This is really grasping at straws and encouraging the rabid followers to do the exact same thing ad nauseum, thinking that it is 'real' analysis.

Pathetic.

Oh, and I mangled the first sentence's grammar (not in parallel form) intentionally, so the 'analysts' could prove that I was 'wrong'.

23 webevintage  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:06:39am

Seriously?
This is what George "get off my lawn you damn kids" Will has time to worry about.
I guess I should not be surprised since he also wrote about how much he hates blue jeans too.

It is surprising that while talking about growing up in Chicago Michelle would use some form of the personal pronouns “I” or “me” 44 times.
She also used either Dad or Father, oh and CHICAGO a number of times too.
Sheesh Will, get a grip will ya...

25 Danny  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:08:50am

Personally, I don't think it had anything to do with what the Obamas said:

Chicago

Rio de Janeiro

26 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:08:56am

re: #19 Killgore Trout

What a beautiful speech...It will live forever...

27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:09:17am

re: #25 Danny

Excellent point...

28 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:09:25am

Is it that difficult to formulate an argument against Obama's positions that some need to resort to counting the number of times he uses personal pronouns? If that's what's being resorted to, I think it shows the weakness of the objection.

29 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:09:37am

re: #25 Danny

Personally, I don't think it had anything to do with what the Obamas said:

Chicago

Rio de Janeiro

Townist.
/

30 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:10:07am

re: #26 HoosierHoops

Definitely one of the top speeches in American History. Lot's of I's.

31 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:10:27am

re: #14 clgood

Let's try this thought experiment:

Assuming, hypothetically, that Obama were a narcicistic, America-hating Marxist, what would he be doing differently?

Well, he probably wouldn't say things like this:

I come here today as a passionate supporter of the Olympic and Paralympic Games; as a strong believer in the movement they represent; and as a proud Chicagoan. But above all, I come as a faithful representative of the American people, and we look forward to welcoming the world to the shores of Lake Michigan and the heartland of our nation in 2016.

Or this:

To host athletes and visitors from every corner of the globe is a high honor and a great responsibility. And America is ready and eager to assume that sacred trust. We're a nation that has always opened its arms to the citizens of the world -- including my own father from the African continent -- people who have sought something better; who have dreamed of something bigger.

Or most of the rest of the Copenhagen speech.

32 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:10:52am

re: #5 dentate

especially if youre already inclined to be "rubbed the wrong way" by that person

33 wrenchwench  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:00am

I didn't know Michelle Obama's father had MS. Hey, she's using him to promote Paralympics! Evil!

///

34 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:16am

re: #13 Charles

It doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. The only person who could possibly be offended by that kind of speech is a hardcore partisan, looking for offense.

Understood--but there WERE partisans involved here in the sense of judges who had to choose a side. How about:

"The people of United States and of my hometown, Chicago, are passionate supporters of the Olympic games and strong believers in the movement...Our nation looks forward to welcoming..."

Isn't that what it's about? Representing us, not himself? He says it in the next sentence--"faithful representative" and so gets to the same meaning. I'd personally find the I and Me irritating after a while regardless of political views.

35 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:33am

re: #28 Sharmuta

Is it that difficult to formulate an argument against Obama's positions that some need to resort to counting the number of times he uses personal pronouns? If that's what's being resorted to, I think it shows the weakness of the objection.

Agreed. And I see both side doing it. A waste of time.

36 Baier  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:36am

/My, my, my...what have we here? I wonder?

37 peterb  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:48am

I'm pretty sure that anyone who wears a bow tie is not allowed to call someone else a narcissist.

38 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:11:48am

Sometimes repetition is a good thing!

Man: You sit here, dear.
Wife: All right.
Man: Morning!
Waitress: Morning!
Man: Well, what've you got?
Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam;
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam...
Waitress: ...spam spam spam egg and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam spam...
Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam!
Waitress: ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.
Wife: Have you got anything without spam?
Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Wife: I don't want ANY spam!
Man: Why can't she have egg bacon spam and sausage?
Wife: THAT'S got spam in it!
Man: Hasn't got as much spam in it as spam egg sausage and spam, has it?
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam... (Crescendo through next few lines...)
Wife: Could you do the egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam then?
Waitress: Urgghh!
Wife: What do you mean 'Urgghh'? I don't like spam!
Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up!
Vikings: Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up! (Vikings stop) Bloody Vikings! You can't have egg bacon spam and sausage without the spam.
Wife: I don't like spam!
Man: Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam!
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam!
Waitress: Shut up!! Baked beans are off.
Man: Well could I have her spam instead of the baked beans then?
Waitress: You mean spam spam spam spam spam spam... (but it is too late and the Vikings drown her words)
Vikings: (Singing elaborately...) Spam spam spam spam. Lovely spam! Wonderful spam! Spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam spa-a-a-a-a-am spam. Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Lovely spam! Spam spam spam spam!

I couldn't help myself.

39 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:12:45am

re: #4 Alouette

I remember an "experiment" performed about 100 or so years ago, in an attempt to "prove" that Shakespeare's plays were actually written by Francis Bacon, which involved counting the number of letters in each work and then dividing by the number of words.

It turned out that Shakespeare used a lot more four-letter words than Bacon.

This is a simple but good example of stylometric analysis. If I remember correctly, a stylometric analysis was performed on The Federalist Papers which suggested that Madison and Hamilton each wrote 40 papers and Jay wrote 5.

40 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:13:06am

re: #25 Danny

Personally, I don't think it had anything to do with what the Obamas said:

Chicago

Rio de Janeiro

I don't see your point here. Both are attractive cities from the pictures.

It may have had more to do with $$$ than anything else.
/$$$ into the IOC voter pockets, that is. They are notoriously corrupt.

41 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:13:48am

Maybe George Will would like to count the personal pronouns in this:

42 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:14:59am

re: #38 Dreader1962

You have "spam" 104 times in that! LOL!

43 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:15:15am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Definitely one of the top speeches in American History. Lot's of I's.

Of course, the repetition makes it sound like more of a prayer or poem.

44 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:15:42am

Is George Will the guy who had this to say about bloggers?

"It’s about narcissism. So much of what is done on the web is people getting on there and writing their diaries as though everyone ought to care about everyone’s inner turmoils. I mean, it’s extraordinary.”

Here a narcissist, there a narcissist, everywhere a narcissist.

45 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:15:45am

I want you all to know me/we/I/they is counting ur wyrds.

46 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:16:23am
47 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:17:19am

re: #34 dentate

And I disagree that one needs to be looking for partisan reasons to object to the use of "I" and "me." In George Will's case, that may be the reason for his objection--it is certainly the reason he wrote on the topic, and presumably not because he objected to it as a matter of style.

That's my only point her. I guess it's a matter of fashion, and to some extent these things change with time. I'm old fashioned in that I was always taught (including by my novelist grandmother) to avoid using the first person pronoun in speech and in writing unless absolutely necessary. It's a matter of politeness, like holding the door for someone. To each his own.

48 Drogheda  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:17:50am

re: #42 Honorary Yooper

You have "spam" 104 times in that! LOL!

I suspect he's Hawaiian.
//

49 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:18:09am

I guess he doesn't like that Beatles song "I, Me, Mine."

50 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #45 Thanos

I want you all to know me/we/I/they is counting ur wyrds.

I'm in ur teleprompter, counting ur personal pronouns.

51 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:19:04am

re: #47 dentate

And I disagree that one needs to be looking for partisan reasons to object to the use of "I" and "me." In George Will's case, that may be the reason for his objection--it is certainly the reason he wrote on the topic, and presumably not because he objected to it as a matter of style.

That's my only point her. I guess it's a matter of fashion, and to some extent these things change with time. I'm old fashioned in that I was always taught (including by my novelist grandmother) to avoid using the first person pronoun in speech and in writing unless absolutely necessary. It's a matter of politeness, like holding the door for someone. To each his own.

Did George Will write extensive studies of the grammar usage in George Bush's every speech? No, of course not. You can't view this in a vacuum.

52 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:19:14am

re: #37 peterb

I'm pretty sure that anyone who wears a bow tie is not allowed to call someone else a narcissist.

A wise man once told me, "Never trust a bow tie". And I don't. I am that narcissistic 'wise man'.

But really, I just don't.

53 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:19:29am

re: #28 Sharmuta

Is it that difficult to formulate an argument against Obama's positions that some need to resort to counting the number of times he uses personal pronouns? If that's what's being resorted to, I think it shows the weakness of the objection.

I prefer we count and review the Ideas of Obama...
Currently the hoopster is grading him a C...He could go any direction in my view..I can't call it yet.. He is either the next JFK or Carter II...
another year like this one and he is toast..
Hell 2 more years like this an America will probably elect a bible thumper creationist ex- preacher that in the Name of Jesus will save your eternal voting soul and stock the Cabinet with the Texas educational board...

54 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:19:49am

re: #51 Dreader1962

Did George Will write extensive studies of the grammar usage in George Bush's every speech? No, of course not. You can't view this in a vacuum.

Are you saying that George Bush's speeches were vacuous?!?!?

55 keloyd  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:19:59am

Those of us who are right of center, but not wingnuts, have a big job cleaning out the Augean stables of the right wing. Talking smack about George Will is not helpful.

George Will has been consistently sensible, witty, fiscally conservative and leery of foreign entanglements for as long as I can remember (~15 years of being an adult and reading/seeing him on Sunday morning news.) Mr. LGF should choose his battles more carefully.

That said, Will does have his little ways. He is very nearly a real life Charlie Brown, leaning his head in his hand in exasperation, even saying "good grief" somewhat regularly. This column is definitely a swing and a miss, but not as bad as his blue jeans column. Most politicians are inherently self-focused. This recent political speech is nowhere near as selfish as most of Clinton's rhetoric.

More points for irony - complaining of pretentious rhetoric in an article where you use the phrase "The memory of man runneth not to a moment that escaped..."

56 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:20:03am

Seriously now, ask yourself how many bloggers and pundits are suddenly using the words "arrogant" "arrogance" and "narcissist" "narcissism" the past week and a half. They don't all start cheeping in unison like this without a cue and direction.

57 harrylook  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:21:24am

I personally think he is a narcissist, but I didn't get there from couting words in a speech. When I found out he wrote 2 autobiographies while still relatively young, I thought that was narcissitic. When he said a light would come down and tell me to vote for Barack, I thought, "Wow, what a self-centered weirdo." When he ran for President with zero relevant experience, I thought he had an overly lofty opinion of himself. I'm like Sharmuta - why use bad arguments when there are so many good one's? Weird...

58 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:21:25am

re: #56 Thanos

Seriously now, ask yourself how many bloggers and pundits are suddenly using the words "arrogant" "arrogance" and "narcissist" "narcissism" the past week and a half. They don't all start cheeping in unison like this without a cue and direction.

Absolutely right. It's suddenly all over the place.

59 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:21:46am

re: #56 Thanos

Seriously now, ask yourself how many bloggers and pundits are suddenly using the words "arrogant" "arrogance" and "narcissist" "narcissism" the past week and a half. They don't all start cheeping in unison like this without a cue and direction.

Suddenly? The 'Obama is a narcissist' meme is a new shiny object?

I'm not following.

60 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:22:08am

re: #47 dentate

And I disagree that one needs to be looking for partisan reasons to object to the use of "I" and "me." In George Will's case, that may be the reason for his objection--it is certainly the reason he wrote on the topic, and presumably not because he objected to it as a matter of style.

That's my only point her. I guess it's a matter of fashion, and to some extent these things change with time. I'm old fashioned in that I was always taught (including by my novelist grandmother) to avoid using the first person pronoun in speech and in writing unless absolutely necessary. It's a matter of politeness, like holding the door for someone. To each his own.

Sometimes there's just no other way to say what you want to say.

61 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:22:19am

re: #58 Charles

Absolutely right. It's suddenly all over the place.

Well I guess it's a step up from "sekret mooslim commie" ...

62 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:22:32am

re: #37 peterb

I'm pretty sure that anyone who wears a bow tie is not allowed to call someone else a narcissist.

Unless that person is at a black tie function.

63 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:23:02am

There is a scientific and medical background for looking at word counts, but I am sure George Will is not referring to this...

"Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count"

(Abstract)

"Language, whether spoken or written, is an important window into people's emotional and cognitive worlds. Text analysis of these narratives, focusing on specific words or classes of words, has been used in numerous research studies including studies of emotional, cognitive, structural, and process components of individuals' verbal and written language. It was in this research context that the LIWC program was developed. The program analyzes text files on a word-by-word basis, calculating percentage words that match each of several language dimensions. Its output is a text file that can be opened in any of a variety of applications, including word processors and spreadsheet programs. The program has 68 pre-set dimensions (output variables) including linguistic dimensions, word categories tapping psychological constructs, and personal concern categories, and can accommodate user-defined dimensions as well. Easy to install and use, this software offers researchers in social, personality, clinical, and applied psychology a valuable tool for quantifying the rich but often slippery data provided in the form of personal narratives."

[Link: www.citeulike.org...]

64 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:23:42am

re: #59 Pianobuff

NO, that started in the campaign. It didn't stick, so someone's decided in a backroom somewhere the past two weeks to refresh the theme. I've seen it more the past two weeks than I have since the election.

65 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:02am

re: #14 clgood

Let's try this thought experiment:

Assuming, hypothetically, that Bush was a narcicistic, America-hating Fascist, what would he be doing differently?

Hmmm... he'd probably take a lot of vacation time, militarize the police and monitor the electronic and voice communications of citizens.

I'm not SAYING Bush was a fascist, that's looney tunes, but it is interesting to wonder what he would have done differently if he had been.

//

66 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #61 Thanos

Well I guess it's a step up from "sekret mooslim commie" ...

Aren't those mutually exclusive?

67 Gus  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:13am

George Will has gone the way of Hot Air and started counting words.

68 Drogheda  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:30am

Charles wasn't there some mention of word counting here a couple weeks ago?

69 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:56am

re: #53 HoosierHoops

I prefer we count and review the Ideas of Obama...

Now that's an interesting strategy. What do you think it would take to get a few bloggers and writers on board with a strategy like that? Instead they're counting words and trying to prove a meme that doesn't advance any aspect of conservative principles. In other words, the right is reduced to scoring cheap political points at best, and advance conservatism not at all.

70 Fart Knocker  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:24:57am

re: #61 Thanos

Well I guess it's a step up from "sekret mooslim commie" ...

I heard he was born in Kenya...
//

71 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #68 Drogheda

Charles wasn't there some mention of word counting here a couple weeks ago?

Yes, when Ed Morrissey did the same stupid thing at Hot Air.

72 davinvalkri  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:25:49am

What we're they supposed to do? Presume to speak for everybody in America, and thus alienate those of us who figure the Olympics is now just another contaminated and hideously expensive political game by other means? It might be a bit odd that he found getting the Olympics to Chicago so important, but this speech is not something to argue "OMG SELF-CENTERED B***" about.

73 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:25:56am

I'm dealing with many companies right now who are making stabs at text analysis, entity extraction, and visualization (our part). The text analysis and entity extraction is pretty awful right now. Many agencies are obviously trying to extract meaning from sources without having to read them. The technology is just not there. The best experiment that I've seen so far is a program that was being developed in Rome Laboratory.

74 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #24 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I struggle with the amount of times that I use "I" in a sentence. I don't really know why my mind takes me to the point where I just talk about me, me, me all of the time. I think that I have my best interests at heart, as I work to help myself overcome the use of I when I speak about me.

I really need to get my fat ass out of my chair and into my car.

This reminds me of the skit where the conceited guy was blabbing on to his date about himself. He finally stops and says, "but enough about me. Let's talk about you... What do YOU think about me?"

75 doubter4444  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:07am

re: #56 Thanos

Seriously now, ask yourself how many bloggers and pundits are suddenly using the words "arrogant" "arrogance" and "narcissist" "narcissism" the past week and a half. They don't all start cheeping in unison like this without a cue and direction.

I've noticed it too, it seems to be the next talking point that won't stick:
He's a narcissist!!
And arrogant!
It's just one more meme that'll go down the memory hole.
The problem is that they are running out of things to say against him, so the charges are getting more and more stupid... like this.
Do the Willster and Capt. Ed hang together?
It seems like he's starting to take their lead... and that way leads, if not to madness, to at least to complete irrelevance.
Or both.

76 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:12am

re: #64 Thanos

NO, that started in the campaign. It didn't stick, so someone's decided in a backroom somewhere the past two weeks to refresh the theme. I've seen it more the past two weeks than I have since the election.

I thought that wagon never left town. I recall the I/me word-counting thing happening this year too.

My impression was that every opportunity afforded to make the narcissistic case has been seized pretty consistently, and quite frequently.

Oh well.

77 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:23am

Are there actually people out there who think there have been Presidents who were NOT egotistical?

78 Drogheda  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:32am

re: #71 Charles

That was it. Gus 802 posted my answer before I posted my question.

79 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:40am

There are lots of things to hit Obama on, and a heck of a lot more than that to hit congress with, and we are focusing on word counts? Highly dysfunctional behavior.

80 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:26:55am

re: #77 Charles

Are there actually people out there who think there have been Presidents who were NOT egotistical?

George Washington?

81 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:27:11am

re: #71 Charles

Yes, when Ed Morrissey did the same stupid thing at Hot Air.

They're effectively rewriting Elizabeth Barrett Browning:

"How do I hate thee? Let me count the words."

82 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:27:22am

re: #73 Dreader1962

I'm dealing with many companies right now who are making stabs at text analysis, entity extraction, and visualization (our part). The text analysis and entity extraction is pretty awful right now. Many agencies are obviously trying to extract meaning from sources without having to read them. The technology is just not there. The best experiment that I've seen so far is a program that was being developed in Rome Laboratory.

I don't know if this is bad, better, best or nothing, but evidently the concepts have been around for a while and in the process of still being developed.

[Link: www.citeulike.org...]

83 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:27:41am

re: #51 Dreader1962

Did George Will write extensive studies of the grammar usage in George Bush's every speech? No, of course not. You can't view this in a vacuum.

No, partisanship is clearly the reason Geoge Will wrote this. And it does not mean I buy the narcissism argument based on this alone (it is really hard to imagine ANYONE becoming POTUS unless he is a narcissist. Does anyone think that anyone in that position is a humble self-effacer forced to the job by circumstance?). I am only saying that I find the frequent use of the first person pronoun annoying as a matter of style. Nothing to do with politics. When you are giving a speech in order to try to GET something from someone, wouldn't you want your style to be as ingratiating as possible?

84 davinvalkri  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:27:42am

re: #77 Charles

Are there actually people out there who think there have been Presidents who were NOT egotistical?

Warren Harding was famously self-abasing, but whether or not he was egotistical is up for debate. Calvin Coolidge may or may not have been egotistical, but he was also fantastically soft-spoken, if clever ("I bet I can't get you to say three words!" "You lose."

85 doubter4444  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #60 reine.de.tout

Sometimes there's just no other way to say what you want to say.

I loled, myself!

86 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:28:06am

re: #77 Charles

Are there actually people out there who think there have been Presidents who were NOT egotistical?

Carter appeared to be humble. But I suspect we can't know for sure.

87 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:28:53am

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

Carter appeared to be humble. But I suspect we can't know for sure.

And so did Uriah Heep.

88 Randall Gross  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:28:55am

re: #73 Dreader1962

I'm dealing with many companies right now who are making stabs at text analysis, entity extraction, and visualization (our part). The text analysis and entity extraction is pretty awful right now. Many agencies are obviously trying to extract meaning from sources without having to read them. The technology is just not there. The best experiment that I've seen so far is a program that was being developed in Rome Laboratory.

Google is doing some work on that as well, you might pop by the Berkman center and watch some of their video discussions.

89 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:29:05am

re: #60 reine.de.tout

Sometimes there's just no other way to say what you want to say.

I'm not representing anyone but myself, and I am not asking you to do anything for me. Big difference.

90 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:29:17am

re: #77 Charles

Are there actually people out there who think there have been Presidents who were NOT egotistical?

William Henry Harrison - he didn't have enough time to be egotistical.

91 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #87 John Neverbend

And so did Uriah Heep.

I don't recognize your reference.

92 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:30:23am

re: #80 Dante41

George Washington?

He was a RAGING narcissist. Does anyone remember how he willfully chopped down the cherry tree and INSISTED on taking credit for it?

93 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:30:33am

re: #64 Thanos

NO, that started in the campaign. It didn't stick, so someone's decided in a backroom somewhere the past two weeks to refresh the theme. I've seen it more the past two weeks than I have since the election.

Agreed. We had some talk of it during the campaign, but that's about it. It is more prevalent over tha past few weeks than even during the campaign.

This shit is being orchestrated from somewhere.

94 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:30:33am

re: #84 davinvalkri

Warren Harding was famously self-abasing, but whether or not he was egotistical is up for debate. Calvin Coolidge may or may not have been egotistical, but he was also fantastically soft-spoken, if clever ("I bet I can't get you to say three words!" "You lose."

I think the person who lost the bet was Marion Davies, William R. Hearst's girlfriend.

95 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

I don't know if this is bad, better, best or nothing, but evidently the concepts have been around for a while and in the process of still being developed.

[Link: www.citeulike.org...]

No, that's just an aggregation method. What they are trying to do is both entity extraction and typing (i.e. 'Person', 'Place', 'Organization') and relationship mapping.

96 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:03am

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

I don't recognize your reference.

Ok, looked it up, got it now.

97 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:11am

re: #84 davinvalkri

Warren Harding was famously self-abasing, but whether or not he was egotistical is up for debate. Calvin Coolidge may or may not have been egotistical, but he was also fantastically soft-spoken, if clever ("I bet I can't get you to say three words!" "You lose."

Maybe someone who achieved the presidency as an unexpected successor (VP). Ford, Truman, Johnson, Arthur, etc.?

98 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:26am

re: #80 Dante41

George Washington?

I love him..But this is the same guy that strode into the Continental Congress in full Military dress like a Virginia Stud and blew everybody away?
He towered over everyone at that time...George? Nope no ego with George...
Look if you are going to be the leader of the free world you better have some ego...I'm not voting for Pee-wee Herman here

99 Gus  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #80 Dante41

George Washington?

Oh noz! Just checked his inaugural speech. He uses the form of "I" and "me" 53 times!

Reference:

[Link: www.famousquotes.me.uk...]

[Link: www.writewords.org.uk...]

100 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

I don't recognize your reference.

A character in David Copperfield who professes to be very humble. That's not Dikkens with 2 K's, the well-known Dutch author.

101 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #100 John Neverbend

A character in David Copperfield who professes to be very humble. That's not Dikkens with 2 K's, the well-known Dutch author.

Upding for the subtle Monty Python reference!

102 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #95 Dreader1962

No, that's just an aggregation method. What they are trying to do is both entity extraction and typing (i.e. 'Person', 'Place', 'Organization') and relationship mapping.

Ok, I did a little further looking into this topic ("Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count") and it appears that it's more geared to using word counts to delve into the psychology of a person.

Not related to your example.

103 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:33:51am

re: #101 Dreader1962

Upding for the subtle Monty Python reference!

"A day without a Monty Python reference is a day wasted."

104 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:34:08am

re: #59 Pianobuff

Suddenly? The 'Obama is a narcissist' meme is a new shiny object?

I'm not following.

Show me one president of the US who wasn't one. You've got to be something of a narcissist to look yourself in the mirror and say "you know, I think I want to be the leader of the most powerful nation on earth." What kind of person does that? All presidential candidates and most of congress are narcissists. I mean, duh.

105 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:34:17am

re: #99 Gus 802

Oh noz! Just checked his inaugural speech. He uses the form of "I" and "me" 53 times!

This is actually the best way to debunk these kinds of arguments.

106 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:35:07am

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I did a little further looking into this topic ("Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count") and it appears that it's more geared to using word counts to delve into the psychology of a person.

Not related to your example.

Here's another example...

"One way human cognition is manifested is through natural language. Previous research suggests we can learn about people’s thoughts, emotions, and motives objectively through the use of linguistic analysis. Such analysis has been conducted by James Pennebaker and colleagues through the use of a computer-based coding system called Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count (LIWC). Extending previous research, the present study examined the feasibility of the LIWC to discriminate among accounts of forensically relevant events -- true, deliberately fabricated, and suggested to have occurred. Results revealed a few linguistic differences among the accounts."


Discriminating True, Suggested, and Fabricated Accounts with the Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count Approach

[Link: www.allacademic.com...]

107 Gus  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:35:53am

re: #105 Ray in TX

This is actually the best way to debunk these kinds of arguments.

Nixon's "Checkers Speech" has a count of 246. He was just a VP candidate. Scratching the surface here.

108 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:35:56am

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I did a little further looking into this topic ("Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count") and it appears that it's more geared to using word counts to delve into the psychology of a person.

Not related to your example.

The Rome Labs program was impressive because within the document it was able to map pronouns to there referents and find variations of the same entity and coalesce them to a single reference. The relationship method was crude, which is not surprising given the complexities of the English language. It was far and away better than what I'm dealing with now. Maybe someday I'll be able to get back to Wright Patterson AFB and get my hands on that project again.

109 subsailor68  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:36:51am

OMG! I never knew what Fark was, and went to the link after they said nice things about LGF and Charles. What a hoot the "headlines" are. Just two examples that made me laugh:

Two Florida cruise ships collide off the Mexican coast. Apparently, the entire Gulf of Mexico didn't give them enough room to get out of each other's way

UK Defence Ministry guide on how to prevent leaks to the public domain, leaks into the public domain

And the nice thing they said about LGF:

Code_Archeologist: Wow... LGF is on a pretty good roll to becoming a source for rational conservatism. Here is hoping that they survive the back lash of trying to save their ideology from itself.

ne2d Becoming? It has been for quite a while now.

Very cool.

(Sorry if absolutely everyone else here knew about this.)

110 rollwave87  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:36:58am

I like some things about George Will. For example, he is a conservative who supports gay marriage and he is a conservative who is fairly well spoken. I also like the fact that he's a baseball guy. I don't like his rather unintelligent views when it comes to climate change and Afghanistan. While I absolutely supported Obama's going to Denmark, and I don't think Chicago's loss had anything to do with the President, it certainly is possible that both Obamas went overboard in selling themselves.

111 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:37:42am

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

Here's another example...

"One way human cognition is manifested is through natural language. Previous research suggests we can learn about people’s thoughts, emotions, and motives objectively through the use of linguistic analysis. Such analysis has been conducted by James Pennebaker and colleagues through the use of a computer-based coding system called Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count (LIWC). Extending previous research, the present study examined the feasibility of the LIWC to discriminate among accounts of forensically relevant events -- true, deliberately fabricated, and suggested to have occurred. Results revealed a few linguistic differences among the accounts."

Discriminating True, Suggested, and Fabricated Accounts with the Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count Approach

[Link: www.allacademic.com...]

We already do word-count extraction and cloud mapping. It's a start, but does not provide the end product that the community is looking for right now. It's a work in progress.

112 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:37:52am

re: #104 Conservative Moonbat

Show me one president of the US who wasn't one. You've got to be something of a narcissist to look yourself in the mirror and say "you know, I think I want to be the leader of the most powerful nation on earth." What kind of person does that? All presidential candidates and most of congress are narcissists. I mean, duh.

You must have meant that comment for someone else. It is nothing to do with what I what I was talking about. Where did I make or defend the charge against Obama in this thread?

But since you have mentioned it, I guess you are saying that Obama is a narcissist? If so, what would be the big deal about calling any hypothetical president a narcissist?

113 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:37:54am

Obama can be a malignant narcassist, but this doesn't prove the claim.

What the Copenhagen speeches show is an abject failure to persuade the IOC that Chicago had a superior bid to other cities in the competition combined with a failure to understand the IOC and how they chose cities to host the Games. It also exposed yet another failure of the Administration officials to recognize no-win situations and put the President in a bind no matter how he responded to the challenge.

If Obama didn't go and Chicago didn't win, Obama loses.
If Obama goes and Chicago doesn't win, Obama loses.

Obama would only claim partial credit if Chicago wins the bid, and it is all too apparent that the Chicago bid was wanting even without Obama stepping in. Obama went because other cities had their respective national leaders go and promote the cities involved in the competition.

If you actually read the speeches, as oppose to read the punditocracy, you'd see that the speech was wanting on that very issue - the Obamas were supposed to be selling Chicago, and they didn't make the sale.

Here's the text of the speeches.

Read Michelle and President Obama's speech, and it's all about the family and her attachment to sports; it was not about how the Bears or the Cubs and the White Sox make Chicago a huge sports town where the fans will make the Olympics commercially successful. After all, this is about the Olympics making money and being a successful operation.

It's about their personal connections to the city - not about the City itself and what it can do for the Olympics. That was a huge mistake. I'm not sure who thought that the Obamas' personalizing Chicago would help it win over the IOC, but it was a failed gambit. It would have been better had they not spoken at all since they completely missed the point of why they were there in the first place.

114 MandyManners  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:38:03am

Lizards have been talking about BHO's narcissism for over a year.

115 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:38:19am

This is scandalous, the President use the word 'I' a shocking 26 times!


>


He should have used the Royal 'we.' Doesn't he know he's in charge now?

Majestic plural

116 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:38:21am

More bad news for the wingnuts...
Stocks pop on economic optimism

Treasury sells $39 billion in 3-yr debt at 1.445%

The Treasury Department sold a record $39 billion in 3-year notes /quotes/comstock/31*!ust3yr (UST3YR 1.37, +0.02, +1.56%) at a yield of 1.445% on Tuesday, as the government progresses through $162 billion in debt auctions this week.

117 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:39:02am

re: #10 ckb

He's right about one thing - both speeches really were bad. Seriously, they stunk. The speech Obama gave at the UN was significantly better written and delivered.

There are methods, techniques, ways for him to become a better pitch man. Maybe he should hire Bill Cosby.

118 jaunte  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:39:20am

Calling someone a communist-narcissist may be the most efficient way to cover the fullest possible spectrum of objections.

119 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:40:44am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

More bad news for the wingnuts...
Stocks pop on economic optimism

Treasury sells $39 billion in 3-yr debt at 1.445%

Excellent news. Problem solved! Cancel the rest of the stimulus, Mr. President.

120 Danny  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:40:53am

re: #86 Walter L. Newton

Carter appeared to be humble. But I suspect we can't know for sure.

Wow, I was thinking the same thing, right down to the "appeared" description.

121 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #112 Pianobuff

You must have meant that comment for someone else. It is nothing to do with what I what I was talking about. Where did I make or defend the charge against Obama in this thread?

But since you have mentioned it, I guess you are saying that Obama is a narcissist? If so, what would be the big deal about calling any hypothetical president a narcissist?

Yeah, I probably did. I'm not fully awake yet.

It wouldn't be a big deal. That was my point.

122 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:41:53am

re: #120 Danny

Wow, I was thinking the same thing, right down to the "appeared" description.

Then I think I should better word my statement. "I think Carter was a humble president."

123 Bagua  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:41:54am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

More bad news for the wingnuts...
[...]

A minor market rally is bad for the wingnuts... were they all shorting the market?

124 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:43:31am

re: #121 Conservative Moonbat

Yeah, I probably did. I'm not fully awake yet.

It wouldn't be a big deal. That was my point.

I don't think it's a big deal. They all have egos. Columnists have been writing about this stuff for years and years.

It's small stuff to me anyway. Malapropisms, factual errors, egos...meh. They all have 'em. Didn't bother me in the Bush days either. Other things did, but not that.

125 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:44:11am

re: #107 Gus 802

Nixon's "Checkers Speech" has a count of 246. He was just a VP candidate. Scratching the surface here.

This is the approach that pretty much destroyed the "Bible Code" nonsense a few years back.

126 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:44:54am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Then I think I should better word my statement. "I think Carter was a humble president."

He's justifiably humble, and he's still very proud of it.

127 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:45:48am

re: #117 The Sanity Inspector

There are methods, techniques, ways for him to become a better pitch man. Maybe he should hire Bill Cosby.

Look, the only thing he's had to sell is snake oil and himself. He never thought he'd actually have to explain half the vaporous words he ever spoke.

128 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:45:53am

Call me crazy, but I thought Chicago was mentioned as a potential host of the 2016 games before Obama was even elected?

129 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:46:08am

re: #109 subsailor68

OMG! I never knew what Fark was, and went to the link after they said nice things about LGF and Charles. What a hoot the "headlines" are. Just two examples that made me laugh:

Two Florida cruise ships collide off the Mexican coast. Apparently, the entire Gulf of Mexico didn't give them enough room to get out of each other's way

UK Defence Ministry guide on how to prevent leaks to the public domain, leaks into the public domain

And the nice thing they said about LGF:

Code_Archeologist: Wow... LGF is on a pretty good roll to becoming a source for rational conservatism. Here is hoping that they survive the back lash of trying to save their ideology from itself.

ne2d Becoming? It has been for quite a while now.

Very cool.

(Sorry if absolutely everyone else here knew about this.)


Yep. Fark is a pretty good place. Some of the headlines are fracking brilliant(do a search for Headline of the Year).

For their politics, I'd say that they are very slightly left of center, but with enough libertarians to counter the balance. If I can describe them, I would say that they are "anti-idiot". They absolutely hate partisan idiocy from both sides of the aisle. Thus leading to why they like LGF. Charles' stand against the lunacy the Right has fallen to as of late resonates with them. As a poster put it, "While I may disagree with the politics of LGF, they actually used reason to get there, so I can respect them for that."

130 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:46:12am

re: #128 Blizard

Call me crazy, but I thought Chicago was mentioned as a potential host of the 2016 games before Obama was even elected?

You're crazy, and it was.

131 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:46:59am

re: #128 Blizard

Call me crazy, but I thought Chicago was mentioned as a potential host of the 2016 games before Obama was even elected?

Love the avatar.

132 Pianobuff  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:47:34am

Gotta run.

До свидания Ящерицы

133 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:49:22am

re: #123 Bagua

A minor market rally is bad for the wingnuts... were they all shorting the market?

Up 30% from a year ago is minor to you? No big deal, eh?

134 dentate  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:49:34am

re: #113 lawhawk

Thank you, Lawhawk. You make the point well. George Will may have raised the subject with partisan motivations, but the fact remains that the speeches were poorly designed, both in content and (I would argue) in style, to persuade judges to award the prize. Will's criticism simply touches on a statistical gimmick that is related to speech content.

The Olympic thing is not a conservative/liberal argument. They just made a poor argument.

135 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:49:52am

Hey Lizards!

How are you-all this afternoon?

136 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:49:58am

re: #128 Blizard

Call me crazy, but I thought Chicago was mentioned as a potential host of the 2016 games before Obama was even elected?

You're right, absolutely right. Of my gosh... oh my gosh... it's like athe light at the end of the tunnel... how in the world, how in our wildest dreams did we miss a chance to blame this on Bush.

*smack head*

137 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:51:01am

re: #128 Blizard

Chicago had pursued a 2012 bid as well, but lost out to NYC for the US bid (which eventually lost out to London). Bids have to be done years in advance, and the national bid is chosen in advance of the IOC bid worldwide. So yes, the Chicago bid was done well in advance of Obama winning the Presidency. In fact, it was done April 2007.

138 MandyManners  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:51:08am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Then I think I should better word my statement. "I think Carter was a humble president."

Humble people don't shoot cats.

139 SixDegrees  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:51:37am

re: #134 dentate

Thank you, Lawhawk. You make the point well. George Will may have raised the subject with partisan motivations, but the fact remains that the speeches were poorly designed, both in content and (I would argue) in style, to persuade judges to award the prize. Will's criticism simply touches on a statistical gimmick that is related to speech content.

The Olympic thing is not a conservative/liberal argument. They just made a poor argument.

The Olympic thing boils down to this: $4.8 billion bid by Chicago versus $12.8 billion bid by Rio. End of story.

140 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:52:04am

Collectivism/Socialism has become a percursor to Godwin's Law. Sad, because it is a concern.

141 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:52:28am

re: #135 ggt

Hey Lizards!

How are you-all this afternoon?

It's difficult to answer the question without using personal pronouns, use of which is now considered bad in conservative circles.

142 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:52:35am

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

You're right, absolutely right. Of my gosh... oh my gosh... it's like athe light at the end of the tunnel... how in the world, how in our wildest dreams did we miss a chance to blame this on Bush.

*smack head*

Well, if the right-wing idiots can blame it on Obama, I'd say that the left-wing idiots can blame it on Bush.

Doesn't change the fact that they are all still idiots.

143 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:52:39am

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

You're right, absolutely right. Of my gosh... oh my gosh... it's like athe light at the end of the tunnel... how in the world, how in our wildest dreams did we miss a chance to blame this on Bush.

*smack head*

I was so flabbergasted at missing the opportunity to bash Bush that I screwed up that whole comment. Bad, Walter, Bad.

144 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:52:40am

re: #138 MandyManners

Humble people don't shoot cats.

I read a couple of Carter's books. "Humble" is not a word I would use to describe him.

145 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #139 SixDegrees

The Olympic thing boils down to this: $4.8 billion bid by Chicago versus $12.8 billion bid by Rio. End of story.

but but but they used the word "I" too many times!!!
/

146 Gus  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:53:01am

re: #128 Blizard

Call me crazy, but I thought Chicago was mentioned as a potential host of the 2016 games before Obama was even elected?

Yeah, it was in the works for almost 3 years:

USOC city selection

Initially, five American cities vied for the 2016 Olympics: Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and San Francisco. The USOC's chairman at the time, Peter Ueberroth, visited all potential host cities during April and May 2006. He visited Chicago on May 10. On July 26, 2006, the United States Olympic Committee (USOC) narrowed its list of American applicant cities to three: Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco.[5] San Francisco withdrew its application on November 13, 2006 after the San Francisco 49ers pulled out of a deal for the construction of a new stadium that would be the centerpiece of the games.[6]

The final stage of the USOC internal selection occurred on April 14, 2007, at Washington, D.C.'s Embassy Row Hotel, where the two remaining bid cities, Chicago and Los Angeles, made a last 40-minute presentation to the USOC board members.[7] At about 9:00 pm UTC, Chicago was announced as the winner of the United States bid for the 2016 Olympic Games by Ueberroth.[8]

On October 2, 2009, Chicago's bid at hosting the 2016 Summer Olympic Games officially ended when the Olympic Committee voted them out in the round of four.

Peter Ueberroth is of course a big Republican donor. George W. Bush was also a big booster for bringing the Summer Games to Chicago and played and active role in the White House to fulfill the IOC selection.

147 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:53:41am
148 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:53:52am

re: #141 Sharmuta

It's difficult to answer the question without using personal pronouns, use of which is now considered bad in conservative circles.

One is doing well.

149 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:53:58am

re: #137 lawhawk

Thank you.

150 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:54:31am

I heard a funny somewhere, maybe here:

"What has the world come to when Chicago can't fix an election"

How true.

ha!

151 insert name here  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #144 ggt

I read a couple of Carter's books. "Humble" is not a word I would use to describe him.

I cannot imagine anyone who runs for public office as being humble.

152 thequis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:55:14am

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

Not to say that many or even most of the attacks are meant that way. I think the vast majority of them aren't BUT I don't remember any past president and practically ALL OF THEM has some sort of Hubris (that's how you get the stones to say you should lead the free world). The other side of the coin is that Presidents 43 & 44 are the only ones to have to deal with a "blogosphere" where every day new attacks/information must be generated for a hit count. I guess this is why I love LGF, when there really isn't any news for the day we get cool musical interludes.

153 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:55:35am

re: #147 MikeySDCA

"Stupid" goes a long way, though.


I think he lives within his own ethical values. Which is more than many people do, especially politicans. I just think his ethical values revolve around him.

154 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:56:17am

re: #139 SixDegrees

The Olympic thing boils down to this: $4.8 billion bid by Chicago versus $12.8 billion bid by Rio. End of story.

It was more than that.. South America is the whole History of the Olympics have never hosted the Games...America has Hosted 8 games..4 summer 4 winter...
It was their time.. Good for them...
/Still the games 4 hours away from here? Dang it!

155 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:56:21am

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."


Good point. I hadn't really considered that.

156 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:56:35am

re: #131 Guanxi88

Thanks. Who doesn't love babies AND skiing?

157 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:57:26am

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

Not to say that many or even most of the attacks are meant that way. I think the vast majority of them aren't BUT I don't remember any past president and practically ALL OF THEM has some sort of Hubris (that's how you get the stones to say you should lead the free world). The other side of the coin is that Presidents 43 & 44 are the only ones to have to deal with a "blogosphere" where every day new attacks/information must be generated for a hit count. I guess this is why I love LGF, when there really isn't any news for the day we get cool musical interludes.

Another great example of how "words" matter.

158 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:58:05am

The Beck boycott continues...
19 more advertisers ditch Glenn Beck


Great news today in our campaign against Glenn Beck. We're announcing that nineteen more of Beck's advertisers have stopped supporting his show. That number includes two British companies who just announced that they've pulled their ads from the UK broadcast of Beck's show after hearing from customers.

Two companies--Waitrose (the British supermarket chain) and Metropolitan Talent Management--pulled their ads not only from Beck's show, but from Fox News in general.

159 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:58:05am

Even SNL had a skit dissing the POTUS this week. Yes, he really is human.

160 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:58:28am

re: #150 ggt

I heard a funny somewhere, maybe here:

"What has the world come to when Chicago can't fix an election"

How true.

ha!

That is funny.

161 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:59:12am

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

Not to say that many or even most of the attacks are meant that way. I think the vast majority of them aren't BUT I don't remember any past president and practically ALL OF THEM has some sort of Hubris (that's how you get the stones to say you should lead the free world). The other side of the coin is that Presidents 43 & 44 are the only ones to have to deal with a "blogosphere" where every day new attacks/information must be generated for a hit count. I guess this is why I love LGF, when there really isn't any news for the day we get cool musical interludes.

[Link: justiceeroom.blogspot.com...]

[Link: www.jackiedanicki.com...]

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

[Link: books.google.com...]

Don't feel so alone. This is just a sample, I can find article after article suggesting just about every one of our last 10 presidents were narcissist.

162 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 11:59:50am

re: #139 SixDegrees

The Olympic thing boils down to this: $4.8 billion bid by Chicago versus $12.8 billion bid by Rio. End of story.

That's not entirely accurate. Rio has to build much of its sports venues and infrastructure to make the bid happen. Chicago already has much of the sports venues built, along with the mass transit to make it work.

Money plays a strong role, but it wasn't the only role.

163 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #162 lawhawk

That's not entirely accurate. Rio has to build much of its sports venues and infrastructure to make the bid happen. Chicago already has much of the sports venues built, along with the mass transit to make it work.

Money plays a strong role, but it wasn't the only role.

I'd say that the Carnival girls played a bigger role.

164 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:01:22pm

I'm really loving the book I'm listening to. Nixon and Mao by Margaret McMillian.

For some reason (probably Pearl S. Buck) I love learning about China. There is also a lot of Cold War Politics that I don't understand. I don't think this book is an definitive resource, but a good overview, so far.

165 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:01:30pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

I was so flabbergasted at missing the opportunity to bash Bush that I screwed up that whole comment. Bad, Walter, Bad.

I see your point, but that's not where I was going. I voted for Bush. Twice. We even share the same hometown. Olympics in Midland, Tx? New event: rattlesnake round-up.

166 Dreader1962  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:01:32pm

re: #108 Dreader1962

...pronouns to their referents...

PIMF

167 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #163 Dante41

I'd say that the Carnival girls played a bigger role.

I'd like to head up a panel to investigate the matter further, but suspect the wife will object.

168 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:02:22pm

re: #165 Blizard

I see your point, but that's not where I was going. I voted for Bush. Twice. We even share the same hometown. Olympics in Midland, Tx? New event: rattlesnake round-up.

Well, we had fun anyway, didn't we?

169 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:02:42pm

re: #167 Guanxi88

I'd like to head up a panel to investigate the matter further, but suspect the wife will object.

As long as it doesn't involve public funds (or your wife's funds) to travel to Rio and get first hand knowledge.

170 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:03:05pm

re: #164 ggt

I'm really loving the book I'm listening to. Nixon and Mao by Margaret McMillian.

For some reason (probably Pearl S. Buck) I love learning about China. There is also a lot of Cold War Politics that I don't understand. I don't think this book is an definitive resource, but a good overview, so far.

Yes, "Who lost China?"

171 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #170 Guanxi88

Yes, "Who lost China?"

Seems like a WWII partitioning f@ck-up---again.

172 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:04:01pm

re: #167 Guanxi88

I'd like to head up a panel to investigate the matter further, but suspect the wife will object.

You see, I don't see Rio getting the Olympics as America losing. As the opening ceremony will show, everyone in the world wins.

173 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:04:46pm

re: #172 Dante41

You see, I don't see Rio getting the Olympics as America losing. As the opening ceremony will show, everyone in the world wins.

In the end, I think the people of Chicagoland are fortunate.

174 insert name here  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:04:54pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton


Don't feel so alone. This is just a sample, I can find article after article suggesting just about every one of our last 10 presidents were narcissist.

How are people defining "narcissist" and how does it manifest itself in behavior? It doesn't seem to be like this (which I just stumbled across):

Narcissism is categorized as a personality disorder by the mental health profession. It is referred to as NPD or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Few are ever diagnosed because few go to therapy. Narcissism is not high self-esteem, but a condition where the typical narcissist suffers from

* Preoccupation with hiding real or perceived flaws
* Overestimation of importance, achievements, talents and skills
* Maladaptive attention seeking behavior
* Inability to empathize with others
* Excessive anger and shame in response to criticism often resulting in rage

175 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:05:59pm

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

Not to say that many or even most of the attacks are meant that way. I think the vast majority of them aren't BUT I don't remember any past president and practically ALL OF THEM has some sort of Hubris (that's how you get the stones to say you should lead the free world). The other side of the coin is that Presidents 43 & 44 are the only ones to have to deal with a "blogosphere" where every day new attacks/information must be generated for a hit count. I guess this is why I love LGF, when there really isn't any news for the day we get cool musical interludes.

It takes a certain type of ego to run for public office; and anyone who runs for public office has at least a bit of that ego.

I think your other points are right on target.

I will admit that it grates on me to hear a speech by anybody that uses a lot of "I" and "we". But I think Obama did it more often during the campaign than he does now. Bill Clinton, I think is the one who takes the prize for using "I" and "we". I reached a point where I thought if I heard Clinton or Hillary say 'We are working very hard . . ." one more time, I would scream.

176 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:06:05pm

re: #173 ggt

In the end, I think the people of Chicagoland are fortunate.

No, we all are.

177 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:06:07pm

HoosierHoops --

It's gettig to be basketball season, are you ready?

178 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #171 ggt

Seems like a WWII partitioning f@ck-up---again.

Nope, far more involved than that. Had commies in the State department and their willing dupes in the press. "Mao's a nationalist reformer," and all the usual blatherskite. Of course, in the end, Mao lost China, as it was his own damned fault that we ended up in hostilities. He had every opportunity to capitalize on his position as a leader of one of the Allied nations at the end of the war, and blew it.

179 lawhawk  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:06:50pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Up 30% from a year ago is minor to you? No big deal, eh?

It may be up 30% from the lows from March), but the markets are still down 4,000+ points from the 14,000 plateau two years ago. They're also ~1,300 points down from the 11,000 level from a year ago.

In other words, the market is still down more than 10% from a year ago, and more than 28% from 2 years ago.

A market rally right now may be short lived because the fundamentals aren't quite there yet - as consumer sentiment remains shot, unemployment figures (a lagging indicator) is continuing to climb, and companies like GM keep announcing layoffs and shuttered facilities (Saturn bellyup).

180 Ray in TX  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:07:00pm

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

Understood. In most cases, you should be properly translating it as "Democrat". Most vague personal attacks against politicians nowadays are partisan in nature, regardless of the target's party.

181 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:07:09pm

Now they're calling Obama a Narc? I guess not during his coke and pot days.

182 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:07:30pm

re: #178 Guanxi88

Nope, far more involved than that. Had commies in the State department and their willing dupes in the press. "Mao's a nationalist reformer," and all the usual blatherskite. Of course, in the end, Mao lost China, as it was his own damned fault that we ended up in hostilities. He had every opportunity to capitalize on his position as a leader of one of the Allied nations at the end of the war, and blew it.

Tip of the hat to Mao, though. Managed to piss off and alienate both superpowers in fairly short order. Nixon et al were wise to play Red China off against the USSR.

183 Pullus Iulius  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:08:25pm

re: #174 insert name here

Narcissism is a diagnostic term. I would certainly accept "all messed up," however.

184 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:09:56pm

re: #178 Guanxi88

"Mao's a nationalist reformer," and all the usual blatherskite.

Now there's a word (blatherskite) you don't hear very often. The only person that I ever heard using it was my uncle who employed it against Neil Kinnock, a former British Labour Party leader who never was elected Prime Minister.

185 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:09:58pm

re: #174 insert name here

I think the danger exposes itself more in a totalitarian regime. I think the Founders set-up a system to contain hubris.

186 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:10:06pm

re: #177 ggt

HoosierHoops --

It's gettig to be basketball season, are you ready?

I'm kind of pissed at Larry Bird...We had a preseason game here last week and they gave away free tickets.. I asked him months ago via email to dedicate the first preseason game of the year to our Military...Donate the proceeds to the USO..
Call it Hoops for Troops
But No...
/But I am so jacked about the new season...

187 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:10:30pm

re: #178 Guanxi88

Nope, far more involved than that. Had commies in the State department and their willing dupes in the press. "Mao's a nationalist reformer," and all the usual blatherskite. Of course, in the end, Mao lost China, as it was his own damned fault that we ended up in hostilities. He had every opportunity to capitalize on his position as a leader of one of the Allied nations at the end of the war, and blew it.

So why did Japan get Manchuria?

188 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:10:42pm

re: #184 John Neverbend

Now there's a word (blatherskite) you don't hear very often. The only person that I ever heard using it was my uncle who employed it against Neil Kinnock, a former British Labour Party leader who never was elected Prime Minister.

Great word, right up there with codswaddle and tosh.

189 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:11:04pm

re: #175 reine.de.tout

It takes a certain type of ego to run for public office; and anyone who runs for public office has at least a bit of that ego.

I think your other points are right on target.

I will admit that it grates on me to hear a speech by anybody that uses a lot of "I" and "we". But I think Obama did it more often during the campaign than he does now. Bill Clinton, I think is the one who takes the prize for using "I" and "we". I reached a point where I thought if I heard Clinton or Hillary say 'We are working very hard . . ." one more time, I would scream.

how do you focus on the single words and not the full content of the speeches?

190 Semper Fi  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:12:20pm

re: #94 Alouette

Alouette,
This is off current topic but in an earlier thread you mentioned mosquitos. Wanted to say that Avon's "Skin so Soft" is an excellent repellant. Not advertised by the company but I've heard this so many times. I use it when on the water and haven't been bitten.

191 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:12:28pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

Great word, right up there with codswaddle and tosh.

Is cosdswaddle a US variant of codswallop?

192 Locker  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:12:29pm

That's what happens when folks run out of or can't find a logical reason to oppose someone. They just make some shit up, hang the bulls eye and shout "Open Fire".

193 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:07pm

re: #189 Boyo

how do you focus on the single words and not the full content of the speeches?

When I'm trying to focus on the content of the speech and keep hearing "I" "we" "me" - often followed by a pause - I find it distracting.

194 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #187 ggt

So why did Japan get Manchuria?

Do you mean the USSR? Japan had Manchuria through force of arms, pre WWII; USSR took it as part of Japanese possessions post WWII. The whole thing was never fully settled.

195 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:26pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

Great word, right up there with codswaddle and tosh.

Actually, he referred to Kinnock as "that Welsh blatherskite", which was ok, as my uncle was Welsh.

196 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:30pm

re: #191 John Neverbend

Is cosdswaddle a US variant of codswallop?

Possibly; never heard that variant before.

197 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:44pm

re: #192 Locker

That's what happens when folks run out of or can't find a logical reason to oppose someone. They just make some shit up, hang the bulls eye and shout "Open Fire".

I akin it to throwing sphagetti against the wall and seeing what will stick.

198 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:13:50pm

re: #193 reine.de.tout

oh ..sorry about that..

199 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:14:55pm

re: #190 Semper Fi

Alouette,
This is off current topic but in an earlier thread you mentioned mosquitos. Wanted to say that Avon's "Skin so Soft" is an excellent repellant. Not advertised by the company but I've heard this so many times. I use it when on the water and haven't been bitten.

I know you weren't talking to me, but I will have to try that. I wonder if it will work against the infamous Galveston mosquitoes, spawns of Hell that they are.

200 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:15:01pm

re: #194 Guanxi88

Do you mean the USSR? Japan had Manchuria through force of arms, pre WWII; USSR took it as part of Japanese possessions post WWII. The whole thing was never fully settled.

Now I'm confused. I thought Japan got something part of China after WWII?

201 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #199 Dante41

I know you weren't talking to me, but I will have to try that. I wonder if it will work against the infamous Galveston mosquitoes, spawns of Hell that they are.

Might I suggest a stinky cigar? Best 'skeeter repellant known.

202 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:15:26pm

"Egotist: N. A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me."

— Ambrose Bierce.

203 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:15:36pm

re: #189 Boyo

how do you focus on the single words and not the full content of the speeches?

I find that I'm distracted by "you know". Usually, my "you know" filter is set to high, and I'm not aware of it, but as soon as one "you know" slips through, the whole filter is ruined.

204 thequis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:16:08pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

[Link: justiceeroom.blogspot.com...]

[Link: www.jackiedanicki.com...]

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

[Link: books.google.com...]

Don't feel so alone. This is just a sample, I can find article after article suggesting just about every one of our last 10 presidents were narcissist.

WLN, you're definitely right that they were all called Narcasistic. I'm sure all of them were. What I'm saying this is the first we've seen is a very short period of the presidency where a coordinated push from multiple sources that the President is a Narcissist and using it as a definite attack meme. Saying the guy who has the gumption to think he's able to rule the free world and make life and death decisions for millions of people is a narcissist is akin to saying an Olympic Sprinter is Fast. Well Duh. You wouldn't have the job or want it if you weren't. Michael Jordan isn't the greatest basketball player of all time because he was humble and thought others could do the job as well as he could. He was the greatest in part because he was an egotistical prick who KNEW that when the game was on the line he wanted the ball in his hands and he would win.

205 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:16:11pm
206 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #203 John Neverbend

I find that I'm distracted by "you know". Usually, my "you know" filter is set to high, and I'm not aware of it, but as soon as one "you know" slips through, the whole filter is ruined.

"could", "would" and "should" distract me.

207 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:16:31pm

re: #203 John Neverbend

is that some sort of ADD ?

208 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #200 ggt

Now I'm confused. I thought Japan got something part of China after WWII?

Why would Japan get anything? Japan was an Axis Co-belligerent, China was a member of the Allies.

209 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:17:23pm

re: #200 ggt

Now I'm confused. I thought Japan got something part of China after WWII?

Not so far as I've ever heard. Fact, they lost Kurile to the Russkies and Okinawa to us.

210 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:17:31pm

re: #190 Semper Fi

Alouette,
This is off current topic but in an earlier thread you mentioned mosquitos. Wanted to say that Avon's "Skin so Soft" is an excellent repellant. Not advertised by the company but I've heard this so many times. I use it when on the water and haven't been bitten.

Well, today I found out that a plain old ice pack works much better than cortisone ointment.

211 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:17:47pm

re: #207 Boyo

is that some sort of ADD ?

Possibly, but I attribute it more to the boorishness of the speaker delivering the string of "you know"s.

212 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:17:56pm

re: #208 Dante41

Why would Japan get anything? Japan was an Axis Co-belligerent, China was a member of the Allies.

I know. Something about that pissed China off because they were the allies and Japan was the axis. Then Japan got all the US attention and support and became a major economic power.

213 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:18:16pm

re: #206 ggt

"he goes" & "she goes", I can't stand, unless used correctly. But they are used in place of many more specific verbs nowadays.

214 MandyManners  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #204 thequis

Lizards nailed BHO as a narcissist before he won the nomination.

215 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:18:45pm

re: #152 thequis

As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear the word "uppity."

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that, and I understand.
But tell me, are there ANY personal attacks on Pres. Obama which you do NOT interpret as being racist?

216 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:19:17pm

re: #213 Ojoe

"he goes" & "she goes", I can't stand, unless used correctly. But they are used in place of many more specific verbs nowadays.

My mother can't stand the overuse of the word "bag".

I hear:

It's not a bag, it's a purse.
It's not a bag, it's a brown paper sack
It's not a bag, it's a plastic grocery sack . . .

217 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:19:28pm

re: #214 MandyManners

Lizards nailed BHO as a narcissist before he won the nomination.

Yes "I" did !

// (sorta)

218 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that, and I understand.
But tell me, are there ANY personal attacks on Pres. Obama which you do NOT interpret as being racist?

That's a pretty condescending remark, when TheQuis just posted this:

Not to say that many or even most of the attacks are meant that way. I think the vast majority of them aren't...

219 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #212 ggt

I know. Something about that pissed China off because they were the allies and Japan was the axis. Then Japan got all the US attention and support and became a major economic power.

I'd say Japan got the aid because China almost immediately fell back into its civil war. A large case of "Ain't touchin' that shit,".

220 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:19:57pm

re: #216 ggt

"Bagpipes"

LOL

221 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:20:10pm

bbiab

222 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:20:21pm

re: #212 ggt

I know. Something about that pissed China off because they were the allies and Japan was the axis. Then Japan got all the US attention and support and became a major economic power.

That was post-war. When the mainland fell to the Reds, we sorta kinda pretended it was a temporary thing, and threw our backing with Chiang Kai-shek. We neglected the captive population in China proper for quite some time. Korea didn't help matters at all, especially when Chiang was offering to send a million soldiers to assist the US and its allies; they'd planned on invading China through Korea and taking back their home.

223 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:20:49pm

re: #114 MandyManners

Lizards have been talking about BHO's narcissism for over a year.

Only a 'true' lizard has.
/True Scotsman reference...

224 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:21:16pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that, and I understand.
But tell me, are there ANY personal attacks on Pres. Obama which you do NOT interpret as being racist?

"personal attacks"?

i thought it was his policies we were supposed to "attack"

225 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:21:37pm

re: #210 Alouette

Well, today I found out that a plain old ice pack works much better than cortisone ointment.

Are you hurting? Ice packs and heating pads work well.. rotate every 20 minutes or so..You want to chill the pain but also to keep a good flow for healing...

226 Semper Fi  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:21:49pm

re: #199 Dante41

I know you weren't talking to me, but I will have to try that. I wonder if it will work against the infamous Galveston mosquitoes, spawns of Hell that they are.

Hopefully, it will work for you as well. As I said, haven't been bitten but I do hear their buzzing seemingly in disappointment.

227 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:21:59pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

That was post-war. When the mainland fell to the Reds, we sorta kinda pretended it was a temporary thing, and threw our backing with Chiang Kai-shek. We neglected the captive population in China proper for quite some time. Korea didn't help matters at all, especially when Chiang was offering to send a million soldiers to assist the US and its allies; they'd planned on invading China through Korea and taking back their home.

Oh sure, that was a sound military strategy...

228 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:22:35pm
229 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:22:43pm

re: #227 Dante41

Oh sure, that was a sound military strategy...

Hey, Chiang was good at fighting a civil war while also slugging it out with the Imperial Japanese. I wouldn't have bet against him.

230 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:23:09pm

re: #227 Dante41

Oh sure, that was a sound military strategy...

Er... that would be, I should say.

PIMF

231 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #230 Dante41

Er... that would be, I should say.

PIMF

Just asking, was the comment an affirmation, or sarc?

232 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:24:48pm

re: #218 Charles

Actually, I happen to believe that many of the personal attacks ARE racist, and I'm not Afro-American.
I do not see why this whole question of racial sensitivities cannot be asked without my own motives being questioned, but then again I shouldn't really be surprised.
Question withdrawn.

233 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:25:40pm

re: #229 Guanxi88

Hey, Chiang was good at fighting a civil war while also slugging it out with the Imperial Japanese. I wouldn't have bet against him.

I don't know. You are invading someone with numerical and logistical superiority through a mountain range. I don't see anyone managing to pull that off.

re: #231 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just asking, was the comment an affirmation, or sarc?

Sarc. Thought the italics gave it away.

234 sagehen  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:26:21pm

Among people who don't hate Obama, the following are believed to be reasons why the US isn't going to get another Olympics for a good long while:

The very embarrassing bribery scandal around the Salt Lake City games.
The very unpleasant (i.e., fatal) bombing at the Atlanta games.
The very unpleasant customs and immigration procedures for foreign visitors to the US.

Really, any one of those would have been reason enough to reject us this time, even if we hadn't had it eight times already.

Besides, Rio really knows how to throw a party.

235 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:26:33pm

re: #231 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just asking, was the comment an affirmation, or sarc?

I think with air power behind him, Chiang could have wreaked holy hell with the Chinese Red Army, and, given that the population of China proper weren't still 100% behind Mao, he might have been able to pull it off.

That said, though, Chinese had to have been sick to death of war by this point, and the USSR would almost certainly have backed Mao in this case.

236 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:26:52pm

re: #233 Dante41

Sarc. Thought the italics gave it away.

Thanks for the reply.

237 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:27:01pm

re: #204 thequis

WLN, you're definitely right that they were all called Narcasistic. I'm sure all of them were. What I'm saying this is the first we've seen is a very short period of the presidency where a coordinated push from multiple sources that the President is a Narcissist and using it as a definite attack meme.

[snip]

No it's not, and that was just my point. I told you I could have linked you to MANY more sites and essays that were attacking numerous presidents all the way back to Nixon, and they were repeated attacks. First off, I didn't link to ALL of them, and a lot the attacks were on various web sites (right and left) which Charles perfers us not linking to. If you don't believe me, then do some googling like I did.

But, I do not agree with your statement at all.

238 revobob  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:27:04pm

re: #233 Dante41

Sarc. Thought the italics gave it away.

Fella named Hannibal pulled it off once...

239 acacia  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:27:22pm

This whole "controversy" is anything but a controversy. The speech was totally irrelevant as they undoubtedly had their minds made up long before the final presentation. If Obama doesn't give a speech and the Olympics go to Rio he would have been roasted for that. I do not like Obama's politics but if we're ever going to stop "everything" from being political, I think we can put the Obama speech in the same category as a President's welcome to a visiting dignatary - a nice gesture that is expected of the office and nothing more and nothing less.

240 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:27:31pm

re: #235 Guanxi88

I think with air power behind him, Chiang could have wreaked holy hell with the Chinese Red Army, and, given that the population of China proper weren't still 100% behind Mao, he might have been able to pull it off.

That said, though, Chinese had to have been sick to death of war by this point, and the USSR would almost certainly have backed Mao in this case.

Excellent points.

241 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:28:01pm

re: #233 Dante41

Sarc. Thought the italics gave it away.

With air power, and superior strategy (which Chiang had in spades), he might easily have routed the Red Army in Korea. Under equipped, poorly trained, and tragically misled, their "peoples' war" model would be no match for Chiang.

242 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:30:41pm

re: #198 Boyo

oh ..sorry about that..

If I were younger, they would probably say I'm ADD.
No reason to be sorry, I get along fine.

243 sagehen  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:31:08pm

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

You don't have to read between the lines to get that word; Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA) called him that flat out. When asked for clarification of his word choice, he repeated, "yeah, uppity."

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

244 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:31:23pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

With air power, and superior strategy (which Chiang had in spades), he might easily have routed the Red Army in Korea. Under equipped, poorly trained, and tragically misled, their "peoples' war" model would be no match for Chiang.

Possibly. The Nationalists maintaining air superiority would have to hinge on the Chinese Red Air Force forgetting any war experience they had. And even an ace can only do so much against a never-ending horde...

On the second point, though, he would have to dislodge them from a mountain range. Even poorly-led and armed peasants don't give up a mountain range without one hell of a fight.

245 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

With air power, and superior strategy (which Chiang had in spades), he might easily have routed the Red Army in Korea. Under equipped, poorly trained, and tragically misled, their "peoples' war" model would be no match for Chiang.

Heh ... The Turkish Brigade "shouldn't" have survived the retreat from the Yalu, but it did.

/:D ... if that's not an obscure reference, I don't know what is ... (link dug up upon request)

246 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:32:10pm

re: #245 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Heh ... The Turkish Brigade "shouldn't" have survived the retreat from the Yalu, but it did.

/:D ... if that's not an obscure reference, I don't know what is ... (link dug up upon request)

Consider this a request, then.

/please share

247 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:32:48pm

re: #246 Dante41

Consider this a request, then.

/please share

Will do. Hang on a minute. I'll be back.

248 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:33:06pm

re: #242 reine.de.tout

If I were younger, they would probably say I'm ADD.
No reason to be sorry, I get along fine.

except when the clintons or obama speak then its "screaming time" :)

249 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:33:08pm

re: #241 Guanxi88

With air power, and superior strategy (which Chiang had in spades), he might easily have routed the Red Army in Korea. Under equipped, poorly trained, and tragically misled, their "peoples' war" model would be no match for Chiang.

And as long as we're going on in this vein, I'll add that he alone was largely responsible for weakening the Imperial Japanese forces in Asia prior to the US entry. He got them to foolishly stretch themselves all the hell over the interior of China, tying up forces and logistics in a futile pursuit of control over an area of no real value to them at all. He just kept fighting and retreating the whole time, till he could isolate a unit, surround and envelope them. This would trigger a rush of troops to the area, who'd arrive well after Chiang had left to hunt elsewhere.

250 sardonic  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:33:33pm

I agree that anyone who feels they are qualified to be the president is probably a narcissist. However, I also think that this guy's head has gotten bigger than anyone that has ever come before him. (Remember "I have a gift, Harry"?)

Personally, I am more interested in words and phrases that Obama doesn't use - like "freedom", "liberty", "private property", "prosperity", "wealth creation", "terrorism", and "victory".

If I had a dollar for every time he's said those words, I still don't think I'd have enough to buy a Sunday New York Times.

251 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:34:05pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

That was post-war. When the mainland fell to the Reds, we sorta kinda pretended it was a temporary thing, and threw our backing with Chiang Kai-shek. We neglected the captive population in China proper for quite some time. Korea didn't help matters at all, especially when Chiang was offering to send a million soldiers to assist the US and its allies; they'd planned on invading China through Korea and taking back their home.

Thanks for the clarification.

252 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:34:41pm

re: #249 Guanxi88

And as long as we're going on in this vein, I'll add that he alone was largely responsible for weakening the Imperial Japanese forces in Asia prior to the US entry. He got them to foolishly stretch themselves all the hell over the interior of China, tying up forces and logistics in a futile pursuit of control over an area of no real value to them at all. He just kept fighting and retreating the whole time, till he could isolate a unit, surround and envelope them. This would trigger a rush of troops to the area, who'd arrive well after Chiang had left to hunt elsewhere.

Hm. I had honestly not heard that Chiang was a good guerrilla warfare fighter.

253 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:35:09pm

re: #244 Dante41

Possibly. The Nationalists maintaining air superiority would have to hinge on the Chinese Red Air Force forgetting any war experience they had. And even an ace can only do so much against a never-ending horde...

On the second point, though, he would have to dislodge them from a mountain range. Even poorly-led and armed peasants don't give up a mountain range without one hell of a fight.

See, Chiang wouldn't come in like that. he'd bait them into an attack, and then they'd be chasing a small force south (stretching their lines the whole time) while he simply landed a force in their rear.

254 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:35:58pm

re: #233 Dante41

Sarc. Thought the italics gave it away.

I thought it was an idealogical choice--democracy/Capitalism vs. totalitarianism/Marxism

255 JEA62  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:36:10pm

George Will counting the number of times he used the word "I"? So what? Reagan used "I", "me" or "my" 42 times in his famous Berlin speech (I counted them). What the hell does that prove?

Can we stop the stupidity now? Conservatives are well the past the point of sounding like nit-picking morons when they bring up things like this.

256 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:36:14pm

re: #199 Dante41

I know you weren't talking to me, but I will have to try that. I wonder if it will work against the infamous Galveston mosquitoes, spawns of Hell that they are.

You can also try eating a banana every day, to get the potassium levels up in your blood. Makes you less attractive, I've been told.

257 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:36:18pm

re: #252 Dante41

Hm. I had honestly not heard that Chiang was a good guerrilla warfare fighter.

That was the whole of his strategy for the longest time. Lost his officer cadre fairly early on, and so, stuck with green officers, used the best tactics and strategy he could. He read his Sun Tzu, and knew how a small force can overwhelm a larger one.

258 Semper Fi  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:36:34pm

re: #203 John Neverbend

I find that I'm distracted by "you know". Usually, my "you know" filter is set to high, and I'm not aware of it, but as soon as one "you know" slips through, the whole filter is ruined.

Just wanted to mention that I find, "you know what I'm saying?", very annoying and usually respond with, "so long as you stick to English we're Ok." It's overused and sometimes said a dozen times in a 5 minute conversation.
You know what I'm say'in?

259 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:38:12pm

re: #253 Guanxi88

See, Chiang wouldn't come in like that. he'd bait them into an attack, and then they'd be chasing a small force south (stretching their lines the whole time) while he simply landed a force in their rear.

I am going to have to disagree. Even Mao would not give up such a good defense position like that mountain range. The Reds would know that Chiang would be coming through there, and would not budge from it. A good feint only works if your enemy doesn't know that is how you operate.

260 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:39:04pm

re: #224 Boyo

"personal attacks"?

i thought it was his policies we were supposed to "attack"

Some on the left have turned policy attacks into "personal attacks'

See Carter, Jimmy
Times, New York
Olberman, Keith

261 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #260 sattv4u2

Some on the left have turned policy attacks into "personal attacks'

See Carter, Jimmy
Times, New York
Olberman, Keith

and you said that to say what?

262 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #256 Floral Giraffe

You can also try eating a banana every day, to get the potassium levels up in your blood. Makes you less attractive, I've been told.

You would think that. The Galveston ones though...*shudder* They don't care what is in it, as long as it is blood. And they will scour you for the one place you didn't put repellent, and swarm it. When I call them a scourge of Hell, I mean it.

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:41:00pm

re: #246 Dante41

Consider this a request, then.

/please share

Here are three.

The operative subject is the retreat from Kunuri. Elements of the Brigade were surrounded at times. In at least on instance, they broke out by a bayonet charge. They brought their wounded out with them.

(This one's somewhat partisan, but accurate)
[Link: www.korean-war.com...]

HistoryNet
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

264 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:41:10pm

re: #261 Boyo

and you said that to say what?

You were asking another poster from #215. I was answering

265 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:41:23pm

re: #262 Dante41

You would think that. The Galveston ones though...*shudder* They don't care what is in it, as long as it is blood. And they will scour you for the one place you didn't put repellent, and swarm it. When I call them a scourge of Hell, I mean it.

At youth baseball games, I'd light a cigarette and use it ans incense. Seemed to work. Ok, sometimes I'd smoke it too!

266 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:42:15pm

re: #264 sattv4u2

You were asking another poster from #215. I was answering

what you replied didnt answer my question but diverted with the old "look over there to the left" bit

267 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:43:14pm

Guanxi and Dante:

I'd love if you read the book I'm reading and critique it for me and others. Fascinating stuff, IMHO. You are much more informed than I.

268 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:43:17pm

re: #259 Dante41

I am going to have to disagree. Even Mao would not give up such a good defense position like that mountain range. The Reds would know that Chiang would be coming through there, and would not budge from it. A good feint only works if your enemy doesn't know that is how you operate.

One other thing to consider is that a strong mountain range is a great fortress provided you can stay well supplied. Red supply lines were always weak; wait them out if need be. And again, Chiang was a guerrilla fighter of some experience; he knew when and where to strike.

If you're freezing to death on a mountain while your enemy continues his preparations down below, at some point, you have to come down to fight him, or be destroyed when operations are complete. If anything, he'd either lure them down, or, alternately, encourage them to build their defenses there and land a force elsewhere on the mainland.

269 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #263 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Here are three.

The operative subject is the retreat from Kunuri. Elements of the Brigade were surrounded at times. In at least on instance, they broke out by a bayonet charge. They brought their wounded out with them.

(This one's somewhat partisan, but accurate)
[Link: www.korean-war.com...]

HistoryNet
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Ooo...bookmarked for later. Always love reading about military breakouts. Usually shows that the commander has a good head on him.

270 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:43:57pm

re: #234 sagehen

Among people who don't hate Obama, the following are believed to be reasons why the US isn't going to get another Olympics for a good long while:

The very embarrassing bribery scandal around the Salt Lake City games.
The very unpleasant (i.e., fatal) bombing at the Atlanta games.
The very unpleasant customs and immigration procedures for foreign visitors to the US.

Really, any one of those would have been reason enough to reject us this time, even if we hadn't had it eight times already.

Besides, Rio really knows how to throw a party.

Never in the history of the Games has South America hosted the Olympics..
They bid 3 times the money.
If was fair...I believe most Americas are fair...Give them their moment in the Sun for Goodness sake.. ..Congrad's to Rio...This is a worldwide epic sporting competition with a special history.. We should Celebrate sharing the Olympic Spirit across the globe...It's one of the few things I think the world gets right...With all the warts..The Olympic Spirit can inspire people...
I am so proud of our kids that spend thousands of hours practicing at 4am to represent me and our Country...Their dedication, Pride and strength...
The endless hours to just have the Honor of representing America in the World... Yup..When the Olympics all on.. I yelling USA! USA!..
Very proud of our kids and our Country...

271 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:44:25pm

re: #267 ggt

Guanxi and Dante:

I'd love if you read the book I'm reading and critique it for me and others. Fascinating stuff, IMHO. You are much more informed than I.

I'd love to. Which one is it?

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:44:54pm

re: #263 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Here are three.

The operative subject is the retreat from Kunuri. Elements of the Brigade were surrounded at times. In at least on instance, they broke out by a bayonet charge. They brought their wounded out with them.

(This one's somewhat partisan, but accurate)
[Link: www.korean-war.com...]

HistoryNet
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

Wikipedia
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And in at least one instance, when out of ammo, they collected the weapons of enemy soldiers they'd killed.

273 thequis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:45:09pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

Thank you for being honest enough to admit that, and I understand.
But tell me, are there ANY personal attacks on Pres. Obama which you do NOT interpret as being racist?

Yeah, most of the ones that I hear on this site. That's why I come here. There is a difference to attacking policy and attacking a person. Heck, you can attack him personally and as long as it makes sense ride it out. Was his seal that he created during the campaign a sure sign of hubris Hell to the Yeah.

I'm not saying that it is racially motivated in all all cases, heck in most cases I don't think it is, In the specific case of George Will I don't think HE was racially motivated but I do think in SOME of the cases around the web and on the television, yes It is.

The question I ask myself when I'm thinking about criticism and this happens whether black or white or male and female. If there was a switch what would I think or what do I think they would say.

Would Beck be saying health care was "reparations" if Hillary were pushing the same policy? No

Do I think that Saxby Chambilss would have said that John Edwards needs to address Congress with some Humility? He might have, but I doubt it (I could be wrong).

Do I think Limbaugh would say we need to have segregated busing to protect the children if the same violence happened and John McCain were the president? Nope

Have I heard ANY PRESIDENT before this ones have his citizenship questioned? No

Do I think we should have a great debate about the need for fiscal responsibility vs the moral oblicagation of health care? YES

I agree with the needs of the bailouts but I ask, beg, you to make arguments and protest about why we shouldn't have done it.

I do think that often times we conflate racial insensitivity with racism. There are times when people have no intent of being racist, but they don't know the history behind a word or a phrase. There are parts of the country where some people still refer to an adult African American man as a "boy" not because they meant it as a racial slight but because that's just what they're referred to. They feel its akin to calling a mule an ass its not derogatory, its just the term for it.

274 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:45:32pm

re: #267 ggt

Guanxi and Dante:

I'd love if you read the book I'm reading and critique it for me and others. Fascinating stuff, IMHO. You are much more informed than I.

Yes, which is it? My boss' father was a General under Chiang; if anyone would know, it'd be her.

275 Semper Fi  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #210 Alouette

Well, today I found out that a plain old ice pack works much better than cortisone ointment.

If you're experiencing swelling of the entire arm, not just locally at the bite, it must be uncomfortable. Did you daub bites with alcohol?

276 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:47:32pm

re: #271 Dante41

I'd love to. Which one is it?

Nixon and Mao by Margaret McMillian. Not much military stuff, but a quick enough read. I'm listening to the audio --which is well done, some misprounounced word, but overall well done.

I'm just starting to learn about Cold War politics. Also facinating. So, far I think the author is very fair to Nixon.

277 Blizard  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:47:43pm

re: #262 Dante41

You would think that. The Galveston ones though...*shudder* They don't care what is in it, as long as it is blood. And they will scour you for the one place you didn't put repellent, and swarm it. When I call them a scourge of Hell, I mean it.

Most bites I've ever had were from a brief visit to Beaumont. Gah!

278 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:48:41pm

re: #248 Boyo

except when the clintons or obama speak then its "screaming time" :)

er . . . no.
Please go back and re-read:

re: #175 reine.de.tout

. . . I reached a point where I thought if I heard Clinton or Hillary say 'We are working very hard . . ." one more time, I would scream.

279 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:48:45pm

re: #269 Dante41

Ooo...bookmarked for later. Always love reading about military breakouts. Usually shows that the commander has a good head on him.

This was a series of fragmented, small unit actions. IIRC, credit is due to the field grade officers and lower ranks. The overall moral of this story is, don't f*** with the Turks on the battlefield.

280 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:49:24pm

re: #268 Guanxi88

One other thing to consider is that a strong mountain range is a great fortress provided you can stay well supplied. Red supply lines were always weak; wait them out if need be. And again, Chiang was a guerrilla fighter of some experience; he knew when and where to strike.

If you're freezing to death on a mountain while your enemy continues his preparations down below, at some point, you have to come down to fight him, or be destroyed when operations are complete. If anything, he'd either lure them down, or, alternately, encourage them to build their defenses there and land a force elsewhere on the mainland.

Well, as you said, if the UN forces decided to let Chiang and his Nationalists come and try to re-take the mainland through Korea, the Soviet Union would have probably stepped in. So I don't think that supplies would have been a problem.

And I believe the second point only applies with the first. If you build up your fortifications as much as the enemy builds up his attacking force, his force would still be inferior. I mean, look at the Austrians in the Alps druing WW1. Mountain ranges are where armies throw themselves onto swords.

281 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:49:57pm

re: #273 thequis

Yeah, most of the ones that I hear on this site. That's why I come here. There is a difference to attacking policy and attacking a person. Heck, you can attack him personally and as long as it makes sense ride it out. Was his seal that he created during the campaign a sure sign of hubris Hell to the Yeah.

I'm not saying that it is racially motivated in all all cases, heck in most cases I don't think it is, In the specific case of George Will I don't think HE was racially motivated but I do think in SOME of the cases around the web and on the television, yes It is.

The question I ask myself when I'm thinking about criticism and this happens whether black or white or male and female. If there was a switch what would I think or what do I think they would say.

Would Beck be saying health care was "reparations" if Hillary were pushing the same policy? No

Do I think that Saxby Chambilss would have said that John Edwards needs to address Congress with some Humility? He might have, but I doubt it (I could be wrong).

Do I think Limbaugh would say we need to have segregated busing to protect the children if the same violence happened and John McCain were the president? Nope

Have I heard ANY PRESIDENT before this ones have his citizenship questioned? No

Do I think we should have a great debate about the need for fiscal responsibility vs the moral oblicagation of health care? YES

I agree with the needs of the bailouts but I ask, beg, you to make arguments and protest about why we shouldn't have done it.

I do think that often times we conflate racial insensitivity with racism. There are times when people have no intent of being racist, but they don't know the history behind a word or a phrase. There are parts of the country where some people still refer to an adult African American man as a "boy" not because they meant it as a racial slight but because that's just what they're referred to. They feel its akin to calling a mule an ass its not derogatory, its just the term for it.

emphasis mine. I agree, I think we need more dialogue to alleviate this. Without body language and facial expressions, there is little way to tell.

282 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:50:41pm

re: #279 pre-Boomer Marine brat

This was a series of fragmented, small unit actions. IIRC, credit is due to the field grade officers and lower ranks. The overall moral of this story is, don't f*** with the Turks on the battlefield.

Unless you are an ANZAC. ;-)

/and no, Gallipoli doesn't count

283 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:51:58pm

re: #280 Dante41

Austrians in the Alps druing WW1

Trivia -- were you aware that Erwin Rommel was an infantry commander (mountain troops) on this front?

284 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #282 Dante41

Unless you are an ANZAC. ;-)

/and no, Gallipoli doesn't count

Correct. I'm not going to get into that discussion with them.

heh

285 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:53:05pm

re: #273 thequis

Yeah, most of the ones that I hear on this site. That's why I come here. There is a difference to attacking policy and attacking a person. Heck, you can attack him personally and as long as it makes sense ride it out. Was his seal that he created during the campaign a sure sign of hubris Hell to the Yeah.

I'm not saying that it is racially motivated in all all cases, heck in most cases I don't think it is, In the specific case of George Will I don't think HE was racially motivated but I do think in SOME of the cases around the web and on the television, yes It is.

The question I ask myself when I'm thinking about criticism and this happens whether black or white or male and female. If there was a switch what would I think or what do I think they would say.

Would Beck be saying health care was "reparations" if Hillary were pushing the same policy? No

Do I think that Saxby Chambilss would have said that John Edwards needs to address Congress with some Humility? He might have, but I doubt it (I could be wrong).

Do I think Limbaugh would say we need to have segregated busing to protect the children if the same violence happened and John McCain were the president? Nope

Have I heard ANY PRESIDENT before this ones have his citizenship questioned? No

Do I think we should have a great debate about the need for fiscal responsibility vs the moral oblicagation of health care? YES

I agree with the needs of the bailouts but I ask, beg, you to make arguments and protest about why we shouldn't have done it.

I do think that often times we conflate racial insensitivity with racism. There are times when people have no intent of being racist, but they don't know the history behind a word or a phrase. There are parts of the country where some people still refer to an adult African American man as a "boy" not because they meant it as a racial slight but because that's just what they're referred to. They feel its akin to calling a mule an ass its not derogatory, its just the term for it.

One thing I've noticed with my African-American friends and people I encounter is the profound use of "respectful" words-. Young Man or Young Lady, instead of boy, girl, or stupid teenager. Kids are "children". There are so many subtle differences in speech.

286 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:53:49pm

SNL can add the transition to a post-racial America to the list of Obama's undone business.
To his credit, Obama has shown admirable restraint to date in refusing to rise to the race bait, however the same cannot be said for many other politicians on both sides of the aisle.
But the much-touted "national discussion on race" has not happened, and he needs to get to it.

287 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:54:17pm

re: #283 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Trivia -- were you aware that Erwin Rommel was an infantry commander (mountain troops) on this front?

Why, yes. I am pretty well versed in 20th century military history, at least European MilHist. I mean, that is where Rommel got the experience to write his book.

/which Patton then read. ;-)

288 Boyo  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:54:27pm

re: #278 reine.de.tout


except when the clintons [s]or obama[/s] speak then its "screaming time" :)

obamas "i" and "we" just grate...got it.

289 sattv4u2  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:55:48pm

re: #266 Boyo

what you replied didnt answer my question but diverted with the old "look over there to the left" bit

Not really. You in essence were asking how did it get from policy attacks to personal ones. I stated that policy attacks were morphed into personal by the sources I mentioned

290 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:57:12pm

re: #287 Dante41

Why, yes. I am pretty well versed in 20th century military history, at least European MilHist. I mean, that is where Rommel got the experience to write his book.

/which Patton then read. ;-)

And the title on the book's cover in the movie had something to do with "The Tank in Attack", or other such crap artist's license

291 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 12:58:51pm

re: #290 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And the title on the book's cover in the movie had something to do with "The Tank in Attack", or other such crap artist's license

Wouldn't it have been J.F.C. Fuller's book then?

292 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:03:02pm

re: #291 Dante41

Wouldn't it have been J.F.C. Fuller's book then?

No. In "Patton", the author's name (E.R.) was clearly visible as the camera focused upon the book, and the title was most definitely about tank warfare. First time I saw the movie, it screamed out at me.

293 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:04:37pm

gotta go folks,

Have a great evening!

294 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #292 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No. In "Patton", the author's name (E.R.) was clearly visible as the camera focused upon the book, and the title was most definitely about tank warfare. First time I saw the movie, it screamed out at me.

BTW, I'm not saying that Patton did, or didn't, read Rommel's "The Infantry Attacks". I'm merely referring to the motion picture characterization.

295 debutaunt  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:06:11pm

re: #138 MandyManners

Humble people don't shoot cats.

Really odd humble people kill cats.

296 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:06:40pm

re: #292 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No. In "Patton", the author's name (E.R.) was clearly visible as the camera focused upon the book, and the title was most definitely about tank warfare. First time I saw the movie, it screamed out at me.

I know. I meant, Rommel's book was on Infantry warfare. Books about using tanks written in the '20s would have had to come from Fuller. He was practically the only one advocating it at that point. Oddly enough, so was de Gaulle

297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:10:01pm

re: #296 Dante41

I know. I meant, Rommel's book was on Infantry warfare. Books about using tanks written in the '20s would have had to come from Fuller. He was practically the only one advocating it at that point. Oddly enough, so was de Gaulle

You're exactly right.

The movie makers simply wanted to be pertinant to their story line.
In that sense, I'm fine with it.

298 Egregious Philbin  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:11:22pm

Its still hubris that Barack and Michelle would "parachute" in and try to wrangle the olympics. It rubbed people the wrong way, it was old school Chicago politics along with personal ego gratification, and Obama got Pwned by the IOC.

299 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:12:32pm

re: #297 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You're exactly right.

The movie makers simply wanted to be pertinant to their story line.
In that sense, I'm fine with it.

I suppose.
.
.
.
How in the hell did we wind up discussing who wrote books about tank warfare before WW2 when the thread was originally about George Will doing something stupid? This has to be one of the more impressive hijackings I have seen yet.

300 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:13:37pm

re: #273 thequis

That's why I limited my question to "personal" attacks.
I think your comment is very fair - perhaps even too fair. As a Jew, I know a little bit about prejudice and loaded code-words, so I think we understand each other on that subject.
Suffice it to say that racism is still alive and well in America, and the sooner the national conversation on race takes place the better - if Americans can handle it without melting down.

301 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:13:48pm

re: #288 Boyo

except when the clintons [s]or obama[/s] speak then its "screaming time" :)

obamas "i" and "we" just grate...got it.

Well. My post is there. You can read it if you want.
I tried to explain, but I can't understand it for you. It looks like you have made your decision about what I think and it won't be changed no matter what I say.

302 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:13:55pm

re: #299 Dante41

I suppose.
.
.
.
How in the hell did we wind up discussing who wrote books about tank warfare before WW2 when the thread was originally about George Will doing something stupid? This has to be one of the more impressive hijackings I have seen yet.

At tank-point, yet!

303 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:16:10pm

re: #254 ggt

I thought it was an idealogical choice--democracy/Capitalism vs. totalitarianism/Marxism

I'm afraid that would have been totalitarianism/Capitalism vs totalitarianism/Marxism. More profitable for the bosses but still not nice for the peasants... Chiang was no more interested in democracy than the Mao (though certainly less bloodthirsty). No matter which one "won" China, lots of people were going to die there.

William

304 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:16:12pm

re: #273 thequis

When I look at photos of the Civil War, and see all that we went through together as a nation, I am reminded anew every time that we owe it to each other to treat with great respect .

305 fizzlogic  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #56 Thanos

And Will provides nonsensical evidence for Limbaugh to say, "see, I'm right." And the bullshit spirals.

306 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:18:52pm

re: #302 Guanxi88

At tank-point, yet!

Any in favor of taking this into discussions on the merits of individual tanks? I mean, not much of a jump here.

307 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:19:24pm

re: #302 Guanxi88

At tank-point, yet!

I guess we need to do a track-back on the thread, so we should suspension all further comments before we bogey down.

308 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #299 Dante41

I suppose.
.
.
.
How in the hell did we wind up discussing who wrote books about tank warfare before WW2 when the thread was originally about George Will doing something stupid? This has to be one of the more impressive hijackings I have seen yet.

Happens all the time as these threads progress.

309 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:21:59pm

re: #307 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I guess we need to do a track-back on the thread, so we should suspension all further comments before we bogey down.

...see this tank?
This Tank

Its mission is to kill you for those puns. I do hope it succeeds.

310 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #306 Dante41

Any in favor of taking this into discussions on the merits of individual tanks? I mean, not much of a jump here.

Sherman, whatever you say.

311 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:23:27pm

re: #308 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Happens all the time as these threads progress.

I know. I am a Farker as well. Still has to be one of the more impressive shifts I've seen.

312 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:24:33pm

re: #310 Spare O'Lake

Sherman, whatever you say.

...ow. Just, ow. That one hurt.

313 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:27:03pm

re: #309 Dante41

...see this tank?
This Tank

Its mission is to kill you for those puns. I do hope it succeeds.

re: #310 Spare O'Lake

Sherman, whatever you say.

As a matter of fact, I've gotta get out of here and get stuff done.

So before I Walker out of here, I will cease being a Crusader and proclaim that the Matilda was the greatest tank of World War Two.

/ / / / *maniacal cackling as I flee for the door*

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:28:01pm

*grin*

Seriously, I've gotta go for a while.
Have a great day, all.

315 harrylook  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:28:08pm

re: #152 thequis

Yeah, that rankled my feathers a little, but your further explanation at 273 helped smooth 'em out. :)

It's a damned shame a few racist a-holes and assorted other buffoons with various stupid things to say about the Prez are making it so hard for rational opponents of Obama to speak their minds without fear of being called bigots.

316 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:28:37pm

re: #313 pre-Boomer Marine brat

As a matter of fact, I've gotta get out of here and get stuff done.

So before I Walker out of here, I will cease being a Crusader and proclaim that the Matilda was the greatest tank of World War Two.

/ / / / *maniacal cackling as I flee for the door*

DAMN YOU!
.
.
.
AND IT WAS THE T-34!

317 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:30:15pm

re: #316 Dante41

DAMN YOU!
.
.
.
AND IT WAS THE T-34!

heh ... hanging around for just a moment, knowing you'd respond.

Bye!

/and that was one helluva tank

318 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:32:52pm

Maybe we should build more weapons because the economy is in the tank.

319 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:32:56pm

re: #317 pre-Boomer Marine brat

heh ... hanging around for just a moment, knowing you'd respond.

Bye!

/and that was one helluva tank

You bet your ass it was. Hell, since it is still in service in some places, I'd say it still is.

Have a good one, man.

320 Ojoe  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:33:38pm

We need cars with better gas mileage because the economy is in the tank.

321 Dante41  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:41:01pm

re: #320 Ojoe

We need cars with better gas mileage because the economy is in the tank.

Eh, it was a Porsche stretch the first time.

322 ckb  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:41:14pm

re: #113 lawhawk

Wow, just dead on. Thank you for taking the time to lay it out. Better than Will did, IMHO.

323 jvic  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:45:26pm

Here is a pundit during the campaign, all but endorsing Obama:

It is arguable that, because of his inexperience, Obama is not ready for the presidency. It is arguable that McCain, because of his boiling moralism and bottomless reservoir of certitudes, is not suited to the presidency. Unreadiness can be corrected, although perhaps at great cost, by experience. Can a dismaying temperament be fixed?

Yes, it's George Will.

324 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:47:41pm

re: #312 Dante41

...ow. Just, ow. That one hurt.

Tanks a lot.

325 mph  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:56:29pm

To be fair, Will seems to be taking a cue from (Obama voter) Marty Peretz, editor of The New Republic.

Rio, 1 -- Chicago, 0. The Politics of Narcissism and General McChrystal [Link: www.tnr.com...]

Some decent perspective hased out on the Althouse thread discussing Peretz's article:
[Link: althouse.blogspot.com...]

How I see it:
I think our president is at minimum tone deaf and often aloof -- but it is irresponsible for laymen and journalists to play armchair psychologist and pluck diagnoses from the DSM-IV manual. However in this case, there seems to be more of the armchair psychologizing coming from the democrat Peretz -- and more rhetorics coming from Will -- though at the end of the day they are essentially saying the same thing. Perhaps this was a hot topic of discussion last week at some DC journalist cocktail party.

326 mich-again  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 2:29:25pm

I didn't listen to the speeches and didn't even read them till just now. I think they are both underwhelming. Hers more so than his. But I don't think those speeches or any other they might have made would have affected the IOC decision one bit. Rio had it in the bag. So dissecting the speeches to determine why the Obamas "failed" is a cheap shot and then using the speeches to attack the "failures" as narcissists is beyond that. Not surprised than someone out there would take this angle but I am a bit George Will did.

327 Mikey_Dallas  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 2:41:12pm

re: #13 Charles

It doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. The only person who could possibly be offended by that kind of speech is a hardcore partisan, looking for offense.

Whatever you think of Obama or Will's article, or whether you are offended by it or not, Obama is clearly a narcissist. After the "greek temple" annointing at the Dem convention, and the "we are the ones we've been waiting for" is it really in doubt?

328 mich-again  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 2:45:04pm

Now I get Kilgore's comaprison to the I have a dream speech.
From Michelle's speech..

But I never dreamed that the Olympic flame might one day light up lives in my neighborhood. But today, I can dream, and I am dreaming of an Olympic and Paralympic Games in Chicago that will light up lives in neighborhoods all across America and all across the world; that will expose all our neighborhoods to new sports and new role models; that will show every child that regardless of wealth, or gender, or race, or physical ability, there is a sport and a place for them, too.

She kind of inserted a summary of the "I have a dream" speech into her speech.

329 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 4:08:20pm

The insanity of this approach only is overshadowed ny the stupidity of those who fall for it.

It rests on the fact that most people never really notice probabilities or frequencies until they are pointed out to them.

Someone should count the times per day when they use the word I or we or me.

They might be a little surprised.

BTW, did anyone notice that the letter "s" crops up a lot...

In a real sense this is a sign of how little the right actually wants to actually talk politics. They feel that by maintaining a perpetual sense of faux outrage, they can keep from actually doing work.

It is sort of like the right wing having a perpetual flounce.

Well, we'll see if they get even more of the stick in 2012

330 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 5:22:27pm
331 QueenEsther  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 6:33:14pm

vey iz mir! so George Will's exercise was a useless mental exercise, but please tell me we're not comparing Barack Obama to MLK here?! Obama couldn't shine King's shoes!

332 MPH  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 7:35:35pm

re: #6 tom112

Like Jon Stewart said, regarding conservatives cheering Chicago's Olypimpics loss, conservatives now hate Obama more than they like America!

Some do, yes, but I don't think that is a fair blanket statement either.

Of all the cities in this great country, is Mayor Daley's Chicago (arguably the most corrupt political machine in the country) the place you'd like to see represent us on the world stage? Didn't think so. I'm glad the Chicago team didn't win and it has nothing to do with the president's involvement in the marketing effort.

...and yes, his speech was lame.

333 tradewind  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 7:41:52pm

Well, it was CNN, after all, and not Fox, that just an hour or so ago ran the banner under its broadcast ' Obama... talking too much and doing too little '?
Just saying.

334 tradewind  Tue, Oct 6, 2009 7:44:07pm

re: #331 QueenEsther

/Unfortunate shoe shine analogy/

335 iceweasel  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:03:02am

re: #152 thequis

This may rankle a few feathers out there but I'm going to say it. As an African American, many of us hear the word "narcissist" and in this case of using it to attack The President, we hear th word "uppity."

I completely agree with you. There are a number of charges made against Obama that strike me that way. "Narcissist" is one, another is "arrogant". I hear these and what I also hear unspoken is that word-- "uppity". Also some of the other complaints about Obama which are extremely petty in nature seem to boil down to the unspoken charge that he's uppity. Like the complaints over him referring to the WH as 'my house', or the WH lawn as 'my lawn'. People complain about this but what do they expect him to say? "The People's Lawn"? That would set off the socialist-o-meter all right. I hear those complaints again, as complaints that it should be his lawn at all.

And there are several more words I've seen used to describe Obama that also fall into this category of barely concealed racism: "Man-child" or even "boy". He's almost 50 years old. Did anyone call Clinton or GWB these things when elected?

336 MPH  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 5:33:35am

re: #335 iceweasel

Also some of the other complaints about Obama which are extremely petty in nature seem to boil down to the unspoken charge that he's uppity.

I believe what bothers many people is not uppity-ness, but some sense that the President thinks we should worship him. Sometimes it is overt, like his awful campaign website showing him floating in the clouds, telling you to be the change you want to be (through him)...and he did nothing to temper those notions through the campaign (remember he was going to stop the rise of the oceans?) -- and its made it harder for people who loathe him and his policies to see clearly and judge his individual actions objectively...

At the end of the day, Obama deserves much of the blame for creating an atmosphere of partisanship and insanity (many people who don't understand him are going nuts). Bush's inability to communicate on Iraq/Afghanistan created a similar atmosphere of hatred, insanity, and partisanship which he also deserves much of the blame for. I think we're just seeing a sort of mirror image of the same problem manifesting right now. Very sad.

337 QueenEsther  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 6:41:06pm

re: #334 tradewind

My family was in the shoe business, and my kid is shining his patent leathers for his jr. ROTC uniform... so in my world people actually do shine shoes, and is not a racial slur. The multi-culti sensitivity gauge really has gone a bit haywire since this past election, even here...


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