Decomposing Conspiracy Theory Lurches Back to Life

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Today’s headache-inducing episode of wingnut density is the revival of the rotting corpse of the “Bill Ayers wrote Obama’s books” conspiracy theory, after this blogger encountered Ayers at an airport and had a short, belligerent conversation with him — in which Ayers told her, “I wrote Dreams From My Father.”

Of course, “Backyard Conservative” never even considered the possibility that Ayers was, as they say across the pond, taking the piss — if he even said it at all. But “Backyard Conservative” proves it by posting a picture of … her boarding pass. Now that’s some first class evidence! Who wouldn’t be convinced?

And of course, now this story is running rampant through the right wing blogosphere. Bill Ayers must be laughing his butt off.

Jump to bottom

364 comments
1 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:20:17am

Billy did enough damage with Prairie Fire...why give him undue credit.

2 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:20:17am

And he wrote it while sitting on the grassy knoll in Texas.

///

3 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:22:17am

A conspiracy of basement dwellers.

4 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:25:28am

And Jesus wrote the Constitution. I'm not sure who wrote the Declaration of Independence.

5 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:25:45am

There's only one conspiracy I can get behind... the "Bonanza Conspiracy".

Any lead cast member that was ever in the show Bonanza is now dead. How can that not be a conspiracy?!

/Maybe the drugs are wearing off.

6 KingKenrod  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:26:15am

I hope Bill Ayers gets hounded by idiot bloggers for the rest of his life.

7 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:26:42am

re: #3 DaddyG

A conspiracy of basement dwellers.

CHUD:

Conspiratorial
Hysterical
Unhinged
Dingbats

8 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:27:23am

re: #6 KingKenrod

I hope Bill Ayers gets hounded by idiot bloggers for the rest of his life.

That would be nice, but a nosedive into obscurity would be nicer.

9 Locker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:27:29am

Maybe I can use a picture of a boarding pass to get into the Superbowl this year. Yea it could work!

10 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:27:45am

Charles!? Now you're supporting Bill Ayers!!?1 I hate you! You're just like Daily Kos! Go ahead, I dare you to ban me!

11 Johnny Empire  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:28:09am

Even crazy basement dwellers need their juicy gossip to get them through the day. Makes them feel justified in their crazy. Makes them feel better while they wait for the glorious day when they'll get theirs.

(Meanwhile the country goes to crap because no one is dealing with the underlying issues.)

12 Gus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:28:31am

A conspiracy of nepotistic, insular yokels.

13 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #10 Charles

Charles!? Now you're supporting Bill Ayers!!?1 I hate you! You're just like Daily Kos! Go ahead, I dare you to ban me!

OMG! Is Charles gonna flounce?!

/I can't stop laughing.

14 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:12am

Can you root for both sides to lose?

Two a--holes one blog.

15 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:23am

re: #12 Gus 802

A conspiracy of nepotistic, insular yokels.

Like Umberto Eco's diabolicals, they all quote one another to prove their theories.

16 Locker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:25am

re: #10 Charles

Charles!? Now you're supporting Bill Ayers!!?1 I hate you! You're just like Daily Kos! Go ahead, I dare you to ban me!

Why did I suddenly see a mini protest on Charles desk in my mind? With 2 inch LGF haters marching with signs plastered with the above text? Maybe I'm delirious from my desire for lunch and my weekly Capital Dawg.

17 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #11 Johnny Empire

(Meanwhile the country goes to crap because no one is dealing with the underlying issues.)

DINGDINGDING!

18 John Neverbend  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:48am

Extraordinary. This isn't sarc tag stuff. It's a clear leg pull by Ayers, and I'm surprised the blogger didn't see it that way.

19 Ojoe  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:49am
20 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:29:55am
He went on to say--and if you can prove it, we can split the royalties.

Ayers sent her on a wild goose chase. It sure got her a lot of links and feedback from the wingnutosphere. That's why this stupid stuff gets perpetuated. It's all about the clicks.

21 Locker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:30:11am

re: #13 MrSilverDragon

OMG! Is Charles gonna flounce?!

/I can't stop laughing.

Go flounce yourself? I think he's the only person here for whom that wouldn't be physically possible. Unless he set up his own sockpuppet...

22 Cato the Elder  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:30:42am

I met a seriously obsessed guy in Maine once. His theory was that Steven King and Mark Chapman, the guy who shot John Lennon, were one and the same.

His van was covered on the outside with his handwritten screeds proving this to be so. He would park by the public square of whatever town he was in and try to get people to listen to him. It being Maine, some people did. He was entertaining. No one got terribly upset.

Until he would try periodically to take it to King's house. Then the police would come and escort him away.

One of his screeds "proved" the conspiracy by telling how a police officer from King's home town (Lovell, I believe) responded when Crazee Guy complained about being forced away yet again. CG: "Why are you doing this?" Policeman: "The town pays me five thousand dollars a week to keep Mr King happy."

Screed concluded: "Actual quote, people!"

Taking the piss does not register with Crazee Peeps.

23 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #15 Guanxi88

Like Umberto Eco's diabolicals, they all quote one another to prove their theories.


Blogging really is catching up with the MSM. *Sob*

24 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:12am

re: #19 Ojoe

Thanks, Ojoe. Let's hope that the UCLA physics department is not defunded any time soon in the current CA meltdown. I'd miss the cam.

25 avanti  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:22am

Interesting link from Hot Air about what Ayer's says on the book.

link.

26 spirochete  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:27am

I read that book and I don't see what all the fuss is about. If I wrote something, I'm sure I'd have people look it over, but I think that's what everyone does.

6 I's
33 words.

A 1st person singular pronoun in every sentence.
18% 1stPSP/total word

27 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:40am

re: #23 DaddyG

Catching up? I think you mean reaching down.

28 Ojoe  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:42am

re: #24 tradewind

It's cheaper than the Hubble!

29 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:43am

re: #11 Johnny Empire

Even crazy basement dwellers need their juicy gossip to get them through the day. Makes them feel justified in their crazy. Makes them feel better while they wait for the glorious day when they'll get theirs.

(Meanwhile the country goes to crap because no one is dealing with the underlying issues.)

I do not speak for Charles, but my interpretation of everyone of these Nirther / Beck / Conspiracy Obama Theories is exactly that, we are dropping the ball when there are real issues we could be addressing.

I didn't want to win any future elections anyway...
/

30 badger1970  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:31:48am

re: #11 Johnny Empire

Look at the top ten searches on various search engines, nothing relevant is ever listed.

Just knowing that BO was closely associated with this scum is bad enough. There's really no point as to guess who ghost-written bo's "autobiographies".

31 webevintage  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:32:01am

Even better in LOL.
Y HALO THAR CHARLEZ!? NAO URE SUPPORTIN BILL AYERS!!?1 I HATE U! URE JUS LIEK DAILY KOS! GO AHEAD, I DARE U 2 BAN ME!

32 Summer Seale  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:32:56am

Oh yea, laugh it up! I bet you all think Elvis died and aliens never visited us either! I bet you all think JFK was really shot!

We'll see who was right about Alpha Proxima's plans with this planet, monkey boys!

=)

33 SpaceJesus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:33:23am

I am Bill Ayers

34 bofhell  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:33:43am

re: #32 Summer

Oh yea, laugh it up! I bet you all think Elvis died and aliens never visited us either! I bet you all think JFK was really shot!

We'll see who was right about Alpha Proxima's plans with this planet, monkey boys!

=)

Didn't you watch Men In Black??? Elvis isn't dead! He just left the planet!

35 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:33:57am

re: #33 spacejesus

I am Bill Ayers

...and you're an alcoholic?

/that's where my brain went.

36 Ojoe  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:34:21am

re: #34 bofhell

Martha Stewart was an alien too, IIRC.

37 jdog29  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:34:22am

"I'm not ambidextrous!"
"Yes you are."
"No I'm not."

38 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:34:40am

Well we do know Michelle didn't write it. It would have been all about her.

39 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:34:56am

re: #30 badger1970

Look at the top ten searches on various search engines, nothing relevant is ever listed.

Just knowing that BO was closely associated with this scum is bad enough. There's really no point as to guess who ghost-written bo's "autobiographies".

Actually, it could be determined. In principle, forensic text analysis can match up authors with their works, as long as a good attested sample of the writer's work is available.

40 Summer Seale  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:35:44am

re: #34 bofhell

Didn't you watch Men In Black??? Elvis isn't dead! He just left the planet!

Wow I haven't seen that in sooo long. =) That movie was awesome at poking fun at all the conspiracy nuts though. =)

41 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:36:17am

I am seriously befuddled as to why the identity of a ghostwriter is so important. If the subject of the bio provided the content and approved the final product they own the content it contains.

I just can't get exercised about Bill Ayers (alleged terrorist) writing Obama's biographical fiction or Lynn Vincent (alleged white supremicist) writing Palin's tour de farce. ...and neither book is likely to grace my bookshelf, ever.

42 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:36:39am

re: #10 Charles

Charles!? Now you're supporting Bill Ayers!!?1 I hate you! You're just like Daily Kos! Go ahead, I dare you to ban me!

You forgot: "I had to come over here and see it to believe it". That was a hoot.

43 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #31 webevintage

Even better in LOL.
Y HALO THAR CHARLEZ!? NAO URE SUPPORTIN BILL AYERS!!?1 I HATE U! URE JUS LIEK DAILY KOS! GO AHEAD, I DARE U 2 BAN ME!

You got an on-line translator that does that? /

44 Danny  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:37:44am

re: #33 spacejesus

I am Bill Ayers

Stop pulling my leg. Horrible thought.

45 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:38:14am

re: #31 webevintage

Even better in LOL.
Y HALO THAR CHARLEZ!? NAO URE SUPPORTIN BILL AYERS!!?1 I HATE U! URE JUS LIEK DAILY KOS! GO AHEAD, I DARE U 2 BAN ME!

Shouldn't that start with "O HAI"?

46 bofhell  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #40 Summer

Wow I haven't seen that in sooo long. =) That movie was awesome at poking fun at all the conspiracy nuts though. =)

"Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training."

47 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:39:31am

Why can't these bloggers stick to the things Obama is doing (or should do, but isn't) instead of this stuff?

48 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #10 Charles

Charles!? Now you're supporting Bill Ayers!!?1 I hate you! You're just like Daily Kos! Go ahead, I dare you to ban me!

Sorry, I had to report this :)
/

49 shiplord kirel  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:39:59am

re: #33 spacejesus

I am Bill Ayers

I suspected it all along.
So, where is that suitcase full of Castro's money Armand Hammer gave you to finance the revolution? They need it back.

50 bofhell  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:40:15am

re: #47 Kosh's Shadow

Why can't these bloggers stick to the things Obama is doing (or should do, but isn't) instead of this stuff?

Because that would require cogent and logical thought.

51 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #37 jdog29

"I'm not ambidextrous!"
"Yes you are."
"No I'm not."

I'd give me left arm to be ambidextrous!

52 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:40:49am

re: #25 avanti

Interesting link from Hot Air about what Ayer's says on the book.

link.

From that link:

"Here's what I'm going to say. This is my quote. Be sure to write it down: 'Yes, I wrote Dreams From My Father. I ghostwrote the whole thing. I met with the president three or four times, and then I wrote the entire book.'" He released National Journal's arm, and beamed in Marxist triumph. "And now I would like the royalties."

It's Ayers's canned response.

To repeat what Charles said at the top: "And of course, now this story is running rampant through the right wing blogosphere. Bill Ayers must be laughing his butt off."

53 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:41:24am

re: #37 jdog29

"I'm not ambidextrous!"
"Yes you are."
"No I'm not."

I think you meant multi personality.

54 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:41:49am

re: #32 Summer

Oh yea, laugh it up! I bet you all think Elvis died and aliens never visited us either! I bet you all think JFK was really shot!

We'll see who was right about Alpha Proxima's plans with this planet, monkey boys!

=)

I'm working on a science fiction novel that has all this stuff in it.
Although I put it aside to work on some short stories because they're easier to get published.
But the novel with all these conspiracy theories could sell better, to all sorts of morons who think it is real instead of fiction. Well, their money is just as good as anyone else's.

55 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:42:02am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

There's only one conspiracy I can get behind... the "Bonanza Conspiracy".

Any lead cast member that was ever in the show Bonanza is now dead. How can that not be a conspiracy?!

/Maybe the drugs are wearing off.

You had to mention Bonanza...

56 jdog29  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:42:15am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I'd give me left arm to be ambidextrous!

I'd give my left brain to be schizophrenic.

57 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #52 wrenchwench

Ayers has been laughing his butt off ever since he realized he was 'Guilty as Hell, Free as a Bird'.
Now those, ladies and gentlemen , are his own words.

58 SpaceJesus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:43:53am

re: #49 shiplord kirel

I suspected it all along.
So, where is that suitcase full of Castro's money Armand Hammer gave you to finance the revolution? They need it back.

I spent it all forging Obama's birth certificate

59 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:44:08am

re: #49 shiplord kirel

I suspected it all along.
So, where is that suitcase full of Castro's money Armand Hammer gave you to finance the revolution? They need it back.

Well, they can have the suitcase.

60 jdog29  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

I think you meant multi personality.

the appeared mixup just adds to the madness...

61 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:44:34am

This just proves that there are some on the right who won't recover from losing the last election until way too late for the next one. WTF does it matter longer term who TF might have ghost written or not?

62 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #58 SpaceJesus

I spent it all forging Obama's birth certificate

Dang, that's a good one. Bravo.

63 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #61 Thanos
Evidently, it matters if you're Sarah Palin.

64 jdog29  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:45:30am

re: #56 jdog29

I'd give my left brain to be schizophrenic.

as in the next time you refer to Pizza Hut say "Pizza Hunt" the ensuing train of those rushing to correct you will be hilarious.

65 checked08  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:45:36am

re: #25 avanti

He released National Journal's arm, and beamed in Marxist triumph.


everyone has superpowers these days
/crys

66 bosforus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:45:59am

Even Limbaugh saw through Ayers on this one.

67 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:46:03am

I told the guy at the 7-11 that I am Charles. Does that make this my blog?

68 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:46:06am

re: #54 Kosh's Shadow

I'm working on a science fiction novel that has all this stuff in it.
Although I put it aside to work on some short stories because they're easier to get published.
But the novel with all these conspiracy theories could sell better, to all sorts of morons who think it is real instead of fiction. Well, their money is just as good as anyone else's.

Sort of like a book version of Deus Ex. They took every kook conspiracy theory of the 20th century and spun a pretty coherent narrative that rivaled most Hollywood writing.

69 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:46:19am

re: #63 tradewind

Evidently, it matters if you're Sarah Palin.

bwahaha!...good one

70 bofhell  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:46:28am

re: #56 jdog29

I'd give my left brain to be schizophrenic.

I'd give the right of way to pass safely...

71 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #63 tradewind

Evidently, it matters if you're Sarah Palin.

See my 41

72 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:49:03am

re: #63 tradewind

Evidently, it matters if you're Sarah Palin.

If in some SoCon wetdream Sarah were to win the next election then it wouldn't matter much after that. Keep things in context. Until such time it matters as well because we have clear proof, not unfounded allegations.

73 Reginald Perrin  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:50:13am

re: #33 spacejesus

You better be careful SJ, you keep this up and soon your karma total will be positive.
/

74 brent  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:50:29am

I thought Michelle mentioned Barak getting help from Ayers in her book - that was the big controversy when it came out. Then the storm of 'it doesn't match Barak's style of writing', etc etc hit. I'm not saying I give a f*ck any more, but I know I heard that...

Is the official word it's all Barak, or is it a joint effort? Did anyone read it?

75 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:51:19am

re: #68 ArchangelMichael

Sort of like a book version of Deus Ex. They took every kook conspiracy theory of the 20th century and spun a pretty coherent narrative that rivaled most Hollywood writing.

Already done 20 years ago, called Foucault's Pendulum.

76 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:52:01am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

Already done 20 years ago, called Foucault's Pendulum.

See my re: #15 Guanxi88

Like Umberto Eco's diabolicals, they all quote one another to prove their theories.

77 SFGoth  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:53:27am

I don't care who wrote "Dreams from my Father". I do care who writes "Nightmares from my President"

78 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:53:28am

re: #68 ArchangelMichael

Sort of like a book version of Deus Ex. They took every kook conspiracy theory of the 20th century and spun a pretty coherent narrative that rivaled most Hollywood writing.

I've actually figured out how it could be made into a TV series. Now, if anyone knows someone at a TV network, even "syfy", let me know.

79 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:54:07am

re: #72 Thanos

If in some SoCon wetdream Sarah were to win the next election then it wouldn't matter much after that. Keep things in context. Until such time it matters as well because we have clear proof, not unfounded allegations.

a pretty fine hair to split, but I get the point...actually I don't really give a hoot outside of the entertainment factor, but I doubt BO wrote his books on his own, then again, so what eh?

80 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:54:10am

re: #76 Guanxi88

SMTA.

81 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:54:11am

re: #73 Reginald Perrin

You better be careful SJ, you keep this up and soon your karma total will be positive.
/

Wow. Stranger things have happened however.

82 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:55:07am

re: #61 Thanos

First I don't think Ayers ghost wrote anything for Obama and the whole CT is dumb. But who politicians use for that role has been a topic here lately. I think maybe the Ayers CT got rekindled again when it was exposed who Palin had hired. They needed something to throw back over the wall.

83 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:55:48am

re: #78 Kosh's Shadow

If it's decent, Siffy would ruin it. They have so screwed the pooch there.

84 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:56:12am

re: #82 Mich-again

First I don't think Ayers ghost wrote anything for Obama and the whole CT is dumb. But who politicians use for that role has been a topic here lately. I think maybe the Ayers CT got rekindled again when it was exposed who Palin had hired. They needed something to throw back over the wall.

That makes sense, fight proven facts with unproven rumors. Got it.
/

85 Ray in TX  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:56:44am

Looks like Ayers is getting a laugh at the blogger's expense. He is obviously screwing with the blogger.

It's so hypocritical -- they're making a big deal about whether Obama wrote his own book, yet none of them blink when sweetheart Sarah Palin admittedly hired a white supremacist to write hers!

86 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:57:02am

re: #79 albusteve

a pretty fine hair to split, but I get the point...actually I don't really give a hoot outside of the entertainment factor, but I doubt BO wrote his books on his own, then again, so what eh?

I agree, it's just a big distraction.

Q: There's important stuff ahead of us, why are we chewing over last campaign's dirty tricks gristle in the face of that?
A: To enrich WND cuz they know suckers when they see them

87 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:57:11am

re: #83 tradewind

If it's decent, Siffy would ruin it. They have so screwed the pooch there.

Well, Stargate Universe doesn't look too bad.
Although why they couldn't just put something to block the leak in the shuttle window, I don't know. I guess it just wouldn't be dramatic enough.

88 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:57:53am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

Already done 20 years ago, called Foucault's Pendulum.

True but I don't know if it goes as far as including UFO conspiracy theories in it as well like Deus Ex did.

89 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:58:28am

re: #85 Ray in TX

Looks like Ayers is getting a laugh at the blogger's expense. He is obviously screwing with the blogger.

It's so hypocritical -- they're making a big deal about whether Obama wrote his own book, yet none of them blink when sweetheart Sarah Palin admittedly hired a white supremacist to write hers!

Correction: Palin's ghostwriter co-wrote an earlier book with white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain. I haven't found any evidence that Lynn Vincent is a white supremacist, although she is certainly a far right religious ideologue and creationist.

90 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 11:59:49am

re: #82 Mich-again

The theory arose when there were comparisons drawn between the writing style of Obama shown in his first book vs his latest one. The only thing you can say with any certainty is that he experienced a quantum leap forward in literary style.
I guess it could happen. I don' t see how any of the theorists can say who if anyone was responsible.

91 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:00:33pm

re: #88 ArchangelMichael

True but I don't know if it goes as far as including UFO conspiracy theories in it as well like Deus Ex did.

Well, you can only fit so many conspiracies into 800 pages.

92 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:00:40pm

re: #89 Charles

Correction: Palin's ghostwriter co-wrote an earlier book with white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain. I haven't found any evidence that Lynn Vincent is a white supremacist, although she is certainly a far right religious ideologue and creationist.

Thanks for clarifying that - Maddow glossed into that same leap during her segment too. It's wrong to say she hired a white supremacist to ghostwrite her book, but she did hire someone with direct and proveable ties to one Robert Stacy McCain, known white supremacist.

93 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #86 Thanos

I agree, it's just a big distraction.

Q: There's important stuff ahead of us, why are we chewing over last campaign's dirty tricks gristle in the face of that?
A: To enrich WND cuz they know suckers when they see them

AmIdol politics...paying off in spades...what we need is a good felony assault, or a meth lab in some Senators loft...this stuff is Micky Mouse

94 brent  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:01:07pm

#90 - Michelle again...

I have to say it again, Michelle says in her new autobiography that Barak went to neighbor Ayers for help. How much is open to debate.

95 eric  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:01:27pm

My very first thought when I read this: " Ayers is playing this guy for the fool." I may not be that seasoned, but come on can't you tell when some guy is yanking your chain. And I think I saw this in the Corner. Those guys should know better.

96 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:02:01pm

re: #94 brent

#90 - Michelle again...

I have to say it again, Michelle says in her new autobiography that Barak went to neighbor Ayers for help. How much is open to debate.

Went to Ayers for what kind of help?

97 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:02:09pm

re: #89 Charles

Correction: Palin's ghostwriter co-wrote an earlier book with white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain. I haven't found any evidence that Lynn Vincent is a white supremacist, although she is certainly a far right religious ideologue and creationist.

And if it were Robert Spencer here, I believe there would be obfuscation, mincing of words, and red herring dodges to avoid the "Correction".

Damn your intellectual honesty principle!
/

98 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:02:36pm

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Went to Ayers for what kind of help?

Score some weed?
/

99 Ray in TX  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:02:48pm

re: #89 Charles

Correction: Palin's ghostwriter co-wrote an earlier book with white supremacist Robert Stacy McCain. I haven't found any evidence that Lynn Vincent is a white supremacist, although she is certainly a far right religious ideologue and creationist.

Thank you for the correction. I will admit that I have not been following the connections that closely since *who* writes something isn't generally as important to me as what is being written.

100 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:03:03pm

re: #98 Cannadian Club Akbar

Score some weed?
/

Really? What does that have to do with ghost writing a book?

101 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:03:06pm

re: #89 Charles
Did you see the Day by Day cartoon re McCain? It must be a hot topic.

102 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:03:38pm

Bwahahahahaha! Now THAT is funny. Who knew Ayers had a sense of humor? Either that or he wanted a little more face time with the blogosphere. Does he have a book coming out or something?

103 shiplord kirel  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #90 tradewind

The theory arose when there were comparisons drawn between the writing style of Obama shown in his first book vs his latest one. The only thing you can say with any certainty is that he experienced a quantum leap forward in literary style.
I guess it could happen. I don' t see how any of the theorists can say who if anyone was responsible.

You would probably find a similar stylistic leap at some point in my writing career. I would judge the biggest improvement to have come during the time I worked as an editor.
Btw, a well-meaning(?) friend has told me that my writing has declined from a peak it allegedly reached a few years ago.

104 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:04:04pm

re: #90 tradewind

The theory arose when there were comparisons drawn between the writing style of Obama shown in his first book vs his latest one. The only thing you can say with any certainty is that he experienced a quantum leap forward in literary style.
I guess it could happen. I don' t see how any of the theorists can say who if anyone was responsible.

The person who drew these "comparisons" is Jack Cashill, a creationist who previously tried to push a conspiracy theory that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster. Cashill's credibility is below zero.

105 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:04:16pm

re: #100 Walter L. Newton

Really? What does that have to do with ghost writing a book?

Bad joke. Sorry.

106 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:04:36pm

re: #103 shiplord kirel

I would consider advice like that worth the money it cost you...
///

107 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:05:03pm

re: #101 tradewind

Did you see the Day by Day cartoon re McCain? It must be a hot topic.

You probably loved it.

108 brent  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:05:14pm

#96 help..

Michelle said that Barak was having trouble getting his book written, and he went to Bill Ayers for help. If that's conspiracy, it's being pushed within the family. Which would be smart, if the goal is subterfuge.

109 Right mind left  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:05:28pm

All these little conspiracy theories end up as moot, really. What is important for me is the intent of 0 and future plans of the administration. That he downplayed his relationships and seems duplicitous was/is the red flag.

The issue with ties to Ayers was more about the lie, lies about associations and how lies add up to future lies and putting them on a scale of seriousness. Will it lead to something bad for the country, for my family? ...when his current stance with Honduras is insane, his aligning with Chavez and funding of questionable organizations like the money that went to the unions when he took over GM. Or his irrational stance on Israel, and blase stance on Iran's treatment of the protesters. And his stance on the international monetary system that is not really protective of the US.

These issues add up but "to what" is the question. While he is not a creationist, his values and beliefs make me worry about the education of my kids in a different direction and his appointment of czars that are not fully vetted but have power to implement his litany of changes. The broad expansion of government is more than worrisome.

I figure I needed to write long winded because I have the time and rarely post, my last one was on this subject but I didn't have time to talk about it (and now I need to make snacks!!!)

110 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #94 brent

I have to say it again, Michelle says in her new autobiography that Barak went to neighbor Ayers for help. How much is open to debate.

I think this is the book you meant. But its not an autobiography.

111 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:06:59pm

re: #108 brent

#96 help..

Michelle said that Barak was having trouble getting his book written, and he went to Bill Ayers for help. If that's conspiracy, it's being pushed within the family. Which would be smart, if the goal is subterfuge.

what is the timeline?...I thought BO didn't even know Ayres at that time

112 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:07:07pm

re: #108 brent

#96 help..

Michelle said that Barak was having trouble getting his book written, and he went to Bill Ayers for help. If that's conspiracy, it's being pushed within the family. Which would be smart, if the goal is subterfuge.

You are not being very succinct, are you. What kind of help (I ask again). Help writing it, publishing it, ideas for the book... you are being vague.

You have some links, references, something?

113 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:08:49pm

re: #104 Charles
FWIW, I have no opinion on who if anyone other than Obama authored his book/s/. If the link to Ayers was going to damage him, it would have done it long before the book controversy. If Cashill was the only person pumping that theory, it's amazing it took off the way that it did. I don't know anyone who seriously ever believed that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster.
/Moved, maybe/:)

114 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:09:32pm

re: #107 Charles

Actually, I thought it had no point, since the two ideas had nothing to do with each other.

115 brent  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:09:57pm

#112.

Help writing a book. You could read her book, linked above. I was just trying to point out that not all the people tying Barak, Ayers, and a book together are conspiracy nuts. Again, I really don't have 'any skin in the game' - the book is out there, and only a few people care one way or the other.

116 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:10:05pm

re: #108 brent

#96 help..

Michelle said that Barak was having trouble getting his book written, and he went to Bill Ayers for help. If that's conspiracy, it's being pushed within the family. Which would be smart, if the goal is subterfuge.

That book is NOT an autobiography. It's an anti-Obama book by Christopher Andersen, and the story about Bill Ayers is unsourced and not credible.

117 Right mind left  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:10:41pm

re: #110 Mich-again

I think this is the book you meant. But its not an autobiography.

That is the detail I had too in my reading. It was a hearsay type thing...

118 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:10:56pm

re: #113 tradewind

Whirled Nuts Drooly is the populist mouth organ from hell. It could get Rush Limbaugh is Mao's love child to take off if it wanted to.

119 KingKenrod  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:11:18pm

Medea Benjamin says US troops can stay in Afghanistan. She's discovered that the locals there are afraid of something called "The Taliban".

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

120 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:11:23pm

re: #103 shiplord kirel

You would probably find a similar stylistic leap at some point in my writing career. I would judge the biggest improvement to have come during the time I worked as an editor.
Btw, a well-meaning(?) friend has told me that my writing has declined from a peak it allegedly reached a few years ago.

People do undergo stylistic changes, but these generally occur as the result of lots of writing or editing practice and/or significant external influences (what the writer has been reading and admiring).

You earned your big improvement through loads of work.

121 brent  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:12:15pm

#116 - withdrawn.

I pull it all back - I prefaced it as being heard, not read. Carry on.

122 avanti  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:12:34pm

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

You are not being very succinct, are you. What kind of help (I ask again). Help writing it, publishing it, ideas for the book... you are being vague.

You have some links, references, something?

That quote is from a anti Obama book without backup as far as I know.

123 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:13:14pm

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Went to Ayers for what kind of help?

He needed a cup of sugar.

124 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:13:32pm

My favourite part of the pisstake is how Ayers tells her, "Prove it and I'll split the royalties with you" -- and she still doesn't catch on.

Obviously, Ayers would have all the proof necessary to 'prove it', if it were true...but she still chooses to believe this was him making a tortured confession to her. Because he's so angry at Obama for not being lefty enough and because he isn't getting credit for the book. Buh?

Then, unprompted he said--I wrote Dreams From My Father. I said, oh, so you admit it. He said--Michelle asked me to. I looked at him. He seemed eager. He's about my height, short. He went on to say--and if you can prove it, we can split the royalties. So I said, stop pulling my leg. Horrible thought. But he came again--I really wrote it, the wording was similar. I said I believe you probably heavily edited it. He said--I wrote it. I said--why would I believe you, you're a liar.

He had no answer to that. Just looked at me. Then he turned and walked off, and said again his bit about my proving it and splitting the proceeds.

And this is burning up the crazy-sphere.

The wingnuts are wholly beyond parody now.

125 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:14:24pm

re: #122 avanti

That quote is from a anti Obama book without backup as far as I know.


I love anti-Obama books... but they better be truthful and damn accurate to start with.

The mentioned book evidently is not.

126 KingKenrod  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:14:28pm

If Obama and Ayers' writing is similar, the obvious answer is that Obama was simply copying the style typical of leftist writings that he was familiar with.

127 bosforus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:14:44pm

The real ghostwriters.

128 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:14:44pm

re: #119 KingKenrod

Medea Benjamin says US troops can stay in Afghanistan. She's discovered that the locals there are afraid of something called "The Taliban".

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

Did the poles just reverse?

129 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:15:05pm

re: #113 tradewind

FWIW, I have no opinion on who if anyone other than Obama authored his book/s/. If the link to Ayers was going to damage him, it would have done it long before the book controversy. If Cashill was the only person pumping that theory, it's amazing it took off the way that it did. I don't know anyone who seriously ever believed that the Clintons murdered Vince Foster.
/Moved, maybe/:)

The WSJ also pushed that Foster murder conspiracy story.

Cashill has no crediblity whatsoever-- unless it's as a desperate rightwing smear merchant.

130 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:15:17pm

re: #128 Thanos

Did the poles just reverse?

No, they're still pissed about the whole missile defense thing.

131 CommonCents  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:15:21pm

William Ayres is a tool. Anyone can tell you that inappropriate use of a tool can lead to self mutilation. As if we needed more proof.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:15:43pm

re: #4 SeaMonkey

And Jesus wrote the Constitution. I'm not sure who wrote the Declaration of Independence.

John the Baptist, obviously.

133 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:17:03pm

re: #118 Thanos

?? I'm assuming you're making a point about World Net Daily, which I am missing. I don't read it, and wouldn't cite it as a source.

134 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:18:04pm

re: #129 iceweasel

Really... the WSJ?
I'm guessing you mean one of their columnists, not editorially. Who did that?

135 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:18:15pm

re: #128 Thanos

Did the poles just reverse?

It's like the plot points of the upcoming final season of LOST, reset, parallel timelines, two version of the story happening at the same time.

Confused?

136 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:18:20pm

re: #119 KingKenrod

Medea Benjamin says US troops can stay in Afghanistan. She's discovered that the locals there are afraid of something called "The Taliban".

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

Code Stink got bitch slapped by Afghan women's rights activists.

137 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:19:49pm

re: #18 John Neverbend

Extraordinary. This isn't sarc tag stuff. It's a clear leg pull by Ayers, and I'm surprised the blogger didn't see it that way.

It was a classic Too Good To Check story.

138 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:19:56pm

re: #126 KingKenrod

If Obama and Ayers' writing is similar, the obvious answer is that Obama was simply copying the style typical of leftist writings that he was familiar with.

They're in no way similar. Cashill's 'evidence' is 1) they use words he doesn't know. 2) they use metaphors about the sea.

In re 1: Cashill's own illiteracy proves only that he has an impoverished vocabulary.
In re 2: Yeah. So did Matthew Arnold. So did Homer. So do many people-- especially those writing about the time, change, and memory...like everyone who is writing a memoir.

Seriously, Cashill's claims to literary analysis are risible.

139 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:20:23pm

re: #133 tradewind

I believe he is pointing out that the WND panders to the loons of the world and they could make up anything and find some dimwit eager to not only believe it, but to actually pass it along as the gospel truth.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:20:49pm

re: #119 KingKenrod

Medea Benjamin says US troops can stay in Afghanistan. She's discovered that the locals there are afraid of something called "The Taliban".

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

Jesus Christ riding a pink stegosaurus. On a crouton.

Aaaahhh! Frustrated! Very frustrated!

141 avanti  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:21:00pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

I love anti-Obama books... but they better be truthful and damn accurate to start with.

The mentioned book evidently is not.

Most of the stuff the right gets upset about are in the two books written by Obama.

142 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:21:18pm

re: #136 Alouette

Funny part is, the article says:

In Afghanistan, the US women's activist group finds that their Afghan counterparts want US troop presence – as well as more reconstruction.

REconstruction? I would've thought it necessary for a nation to have something to reconstruct for that to take place.

143 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:22:05pm

re: #142 Yashmak

Funny part is, the article says:


REconstruction? I would've thought it necessary for a nation to have something to reconstruct for that to take place.

More wax on the rocks.

144 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:22:07pm

re: #133 tradewind

?? I'm assuming you're making a point about World Net Daily, which I am missing. I don't read it, and wouldn't cite it as a source.

Jack Cashill, prime pimp for the Ayers ghostwrote bit is a star in the Whirled Nuts constellation of media.

145 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:22:10pm

re: #129 iceweasel

The WSJ also pushed that Foster murder conspiracy story.

Cashill has no crediblity whatsoever-- unless it's as a desperate rightwing smear merchant.

I'd like to see the link to the WSJ story as well. That is shocking.

146 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:22:25pm

I'm working on a deal to have Kosh write my upcoming blockbuster autobiography...just so there is no misconceptions and to avoid any character damaging rumors...if it doesn't sell, it's his fault

147 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:22:41pm

I find it ironic that Obama is now getting smeared by his very real association with the vile former terrorist William Ayers.
Lie with dogs, wake up with fleas.

148 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #134 tradewind

Really... the WSJ?
I'm guessing you mean one of their columnists, not editorially. Who did that?


[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

Some of the stories are nothing more than the cut and thrust of responsible news coverage. But all along, others have seemed determinedly partisan. There is continued grumbling from The Wall Street Journal editorial page, whose stinging criticism apparently contributed to Foster's depression ("WSJ editors lie without consequence," he complained in his note). There's a steady stream of innuendo from conservative New York Times columnist William Safire, who implied at one point that "intelligence matters" might have had something to do with the suicide. And on another level entirely, there is the florid hype and fantasy of the tabloids, designed more to entertain than inform. Some of the most raucous of those excesses have come from overseas.

149 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:23:28pm

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

It's like the plot points of the upcoming final season of LOST, reset, parallel timelines, two version of the story happening at the same time.

Confused?

I hate resets, it's usually a sign that the writers themselves are lost and berift of new ideas.

150 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:23:38pm

re: #142 Yashmak

Funny part is, the article says:


REconstruction? I would've thought it necessary for a nation to have something to reconstruct for that to take place.

I thought Afghanistan was supposed to have been a pretty decent country before the Soviet Union decided to mess it up. Am I misinformed?

151 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:23:47pm

/pimf "bereft"

152 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:23:53pm

re: #142 Yashmak

Funny part is, the article says:

REconstruction? I would've thought it necessary for a nation to have something to reconstruct for that to take place.

You statement doesn't make an ounce of sense. There has been death and destruction going on for almost 25 years there. Russians, US, Taliban, Pakistan... what do you think has been going on all that time... planting gardens?

Go do a google search for some pictures or something.

Geeessshhh.

(can I say dumb?)

153 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:24:33pm

re: #150 lurking faith

I thought Afghanistan was supposed to have been a pretty decent country before the Soviet Union decided to mess it up. Am I misinformed?

I understand it was half-way decent, but I'd bet the Red Army plus about 20 years of war probably did cause some problems.

154 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:24:38pm

re: #147 Spare O'Lake

I find it ironic that Obama is now getting smeared by his very real association with the vile former terrorist William Ayers.
Lie with dogs, wake up with fleas.

I don't think that's what's going on here. I think the wingnutosphere is getting smeared by its association with the blogger who missed the sarc in an encounter with Ayers.

155 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:01pm

re: #147 Spare O'Lake

I find it ironic that Obama is now getting smeared by his very real association with the vile former terrorist William Ayers.
Lie with dogs, wake up with fleas.

Ayers and other things should have sunk Obama during the campaign is the Republicans had bothered to run a serious and/or competent ticket. Epic fail.

156 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:06pm

re: #144 Thanos
Believe it or not, I'm not Mr Cashill's literary agent.///

157 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:19pm

re: #117 Right mind left

That is the detail I had too in my reading. It was a hearsay type thing...

Here is a 4 minute long interview with Anderson about the book and I never got the impression from that he was out to get anyone, and the Ayers story didn't even come up. Sure, controversy sells books, and I wouldn't take anything in that book as gospel truth, rather repeated hearsay but its not like Anderson is a RW ideologue on a mission to smear Obama.

158 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:20pm

re: #150 lurking faith

I thought Afghanistan was supposed to have been a pretty decent country before the Soviet Union decided to mess it up. Am I misinformed?

They never got over Dan Rather and his odd visit there.

159 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:37pm

re: #150 lurking faith

I thought Afghanistan was supposed to have been a pretty decent country before the Soviet Union decided to mess it up. Am I misinformed?

Well, they never had much in terms of a modern infrastructure. But then again, with government largely based on tribal warlords, almost no industry, and hardly any exports to speak of (except drugs, which apparently transport on mule-back just fine), that may never have been a necessity.

160 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:50pm

The story behind the "Vince Foster murder" conspiracy theory is actually quite interesting -- many of the same people involved in that craziness are now pumping out the craziness that feeds the right wing blogosphere, including Christopher Ruddy of Newsmax:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

161 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:25:54pm

re: #149 Thanos

I hate resets, it's usually a sign that the writers themselves are lost and berift of new ideas.

Except for the fact that this series was already plotted out for the full 6 seasons from the get go, and the writers have proven that over and over. The "reset" is a major part of the plot, and always has been. There has been clues to that for about 2 seasons now.

Can't agree with you this time, this is planned (and very clever).

162 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:26:14pm

re: #146 albusteve

I'm working on a deal to have Kosh write my upcoming blockbuster autobiography...just so there is no misconceptions and to avoid any character damaging rumors...if it doesn't sell, it's his fault

What's the title? "Vader Buzzed My House"?

163 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:26:43pm

re: #157 Mich-again

Here is a 4 minute long interview with Anderson about the book and I never got the impression from that he was out to get anyone, and the Ayers story didn't even come up. Sure, controversy sells books, and I wouldn't take anything in that book as gospel truth, rather repeated hearsay but its not like Anderson is a RW ideologue on a mission to smear Obama.

I've read the book. It's absolutely a hit piece, and even quotes Jack Cashill.

164 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:26:56pm

re: #142 Yashmak

Hekmatyar rained rockets on Kabul for two weeks, killing tens of thousands in a massacre of mostly Hazara refugees. They still need to repair much of that damage.

165 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:27:26pm

re: #148 iceweasel
In other words, nothin'.
The only thing I am getting from that is the phrase ' a continuing stream of innuendo'. But interesting to note that Newsweek credits the WSJ with the power to effect clinical depression in a reader.

166 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:27:29pm

Those crazy Clinton rumours were everywhere during the 90's, even in places like the WSJ. Here's a brief history of the WSJ and Foster:
[Link: www.wsws.org...]

One of the first victims of the Wall Street Journal's venom in 1993 was Vincent Foster, deputy White House counsel and a law partner of Hillary Clinton's in the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. On June 17 the Journal ran a comment entitled, “Who is Vincent Foster?” It began: “In its first months, the Clinton White House has proved itself to be careless about many things, from Presidential haircuts to appointing a government. But most disturbing is its carelessness about following the law.” The editors made much of the fact that Foster had refused to send the newspaper a photograph of himself. The Journal proceeded to file a request for a photo under the Freedom of Information Act.

One week later the Journal printed another snide opinion piece, “Vincent Foster's Victory,” which concerned an appeals court decision permitting Hillary Clinton to hold meetings of her Health Task Force in private. It sarcastically suggested that with “one mighty sweep he [Foster] has struck a blow for separation of powers, executive authority, critics of the litigation explosion, and we dare say, even for the formulators of the Reagan White House's off-the-books Iran-Contra operation... [W]e suspect that Vincent Foster and Ollie North might hit it off.”

On July 14, in “FBI Director Rose?,” the Journal referred to a “Rose clique from Little Rock that has already shown a willingness to cut many legal corners...” In “What's the Rush?” (July 19), the editors referred to Hillary Clinton and Foster, “both of whom were also involved in the travel-office affair [involving the firing of White House travel office staff].” It continued, “The mores on display from the Rose alumni are far from confidence-building.”

Foster was apparently made distraught by the editorials, which he felt were mean-spirited and baseless. He believed, reasonably enough, that the Journal would continue attacking him and others. He told his sister that friends and colleagues in Arkansas would read the pieces and expressed concern that his reputation, which he valued, would be damaged. Foster had told an audience at the University of Arkansas Law School in a commencement address two months earlier: “The reputation you develop for intellectual and ethical integrity will be your greatest asset or your worst enemy...”

On July 20, 1993 Foster drove to Fort Marcy Park in Virginia and shot himself to death. The Journal campaign was not the only factor in his suicide, but it clearly played a significant role. A torn note was eventually found in his briefcase, which read, in part, “The WSJ editors lie without consequence.” It concluded, “I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport.”

The response of the Journal to Foster's suicide was chilling. It ran a piece, blandly headlined “A Washington Death,” which, after perfunctorily expressing sorrow, went on to demand an investigation into his death. “The American public,” the editors asserted, “is entitled to know if Mr. Foster's death was somehow connected to his high office.”

Bartley subsequently filed a Freedom of Information request and eventually went to court to seek investigative reports on Foster's death. For months the newspaper did everything in its power to fuel the theory of the lunatic fringe that Foster had been murdered because he knew too much about Whitewater. More than half a year later, in a January 14, 1994 piece, “The Foster Test,” it argued, “Until the Foster death is seriously studied, a Banquo's ghost will stalk not only the independent investigation but the next three years of the Clinton administration.”

167 Lee Coller  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:27:34pm

re: #156 tradewind

Believe it or not, I'm not Mr Cashill's literary agent.///

Let me guess, your his Ghost Writer?

168 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:27:44pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

Ayers and other things should have sunk Obama during the campaign is the Republicans had bothered to run a serious and/or competent ticket. Epic fail.

there was nobody else to run...even if there was the push for BO from the MSM and advanced BDS was insurmountable imo

169 BlackFedora  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:27:55pm

Why can't the right get worked up over stuff that actually matters? Sheesh.

OT:

When I saw the Google logo this morning for the anniversary of the invention of the barcode. I thought to myself the paranoid folks are going to go nuts.

170 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #169 BlackFedora

Why can't the right get worked up over stuff that actually matters? Sheesh.

OT:

When I saw the Google logo this morning for the anniversary of the invention of the barcode. I thought to myself the paranoid folks are going to go nuts.

I remember speaking to a guy who was telling me the barcode was the sign of the apocalypse...the last 3 bars were '666'...

sigh...

171 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:28:52pm

re: #156 tradewind

:) just pointing out that most of the crazier stuff you see that sidetracks the real debate originates from the same corner of the otherverse.

172 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:28:55pm

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

You statement doesn't make an ounce of sense. There has been death and destruction going on for almost 25 years there. Russians, US, Taliban, Pakistan... what do you think has been going on all that time... planting gardens?

Go do a google search for some pictures or something.

Geeessshhh.

(can I say dumb?)

Sure, lots of homes have been knocked down, but the sort of reconstruction that our government generally participates in is not of that sort. We rebuild infrastructure, and services, and Afghanistan never had much of that in the first place. Unless you think the US and its contractors are going to go to Afghanistan and rebuild houses, storefronts, and mosques, we'd have to start from scratch on almost anything meaningful to the people of the nation as a whole.

173 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:11pm

re: #169 BlackFedora

Why can't the right get worked up over stuff that actually matters? Sheesh.

OT:

When I saw the Google logo this morning for the anniversary of the invention of the barcode. I thought to myself the paranoid folks are going to go nuts.

Check Alex Jones web site.

174 CommonCents  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #166 iceweasel


Here's a not so brief history of the WSJ and Foster:

Anything over a screen-full with my microscopic font is not brief.
/

175 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:31pm

re: #160 Charles

The story behind the "Vince Foster murder" conspiracy theory is actually quite interesting -- many of the same people involved in that craziness are now pumping out the craziness that feeds the right wing blogosphere, including Christopher Ruddy of Newsmax:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes, exactly. And Cashill flogged that theory too. And just as Betsy McCaughey brought down HillaryCare, she's back from the dead again too to lie about ObamaCare.

All the same characters popping out of the woodwork. professional rightwing smear merchants, basically.
In many ways we're seeing a replay of the insanity that infected the GOP and the media under Clinton. SSDD-- same shit, different decade.

176 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:42pm

re: #173 Cannadian Club Akbar

Check Alex Jones web site.

Or wait for Beck & Napolitano.

177 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:48pm

re: #166 iceweasel

Give it up. Your initial statement that the WSJ contributed to Vince Foster's suicide was ludicrous enough.

178 Lee Coller  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:29:58pm

re: #169 BlackFedora

Why can't the right get worked up over stuff that actually matters? Sheesh.

OT:

When I saw the Google logo this morning for the anniversary of the invention of the barcode. I thought to myself the paranoid folks are going to go nuts.

You know you are supposed to print it out, cut out the bar code, and staple it to your forehead?

179 deacon  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:30:26pm

so we are suppose to believe that Bill Ayers had some kind of a Fruedian slip talking to a blogger at the airport. If Ayers had lips this loose, this would have come out a long time ago. I think the blogger is a little full of themselves if they think this is serious.

180 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:30:37pm

re: #171 Thanos

Check.
That's a pretty good rule of thumb for both all sides.

181 Lee Coller  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:31:19pm

Don't forget, Cashill also pushed the "Ron Brown" murder story.

182 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:32:11pm

Now people are posting spinoff links to "prove" that Obama's book was written by Ayers. Argh.

I am NOT going to allow LGF to be used to spread this rancid garbage. If you post a link to a conspiracy site, I'll block your account.

183 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:32:23pm

re: #163 Charles

I've read the book. It's absolutely a hit piece, and even quotes Jack Cashill.



He quotes Jack Cashill? Nice. So we have two people using each other as the source for a rumor.

184 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:32:47pm

re: #180 tradewind

Check.
That's a pretty good rule of thumb for both all sides.

Agreed. The crazy left stuff has a reflection of that otherverse, sites like NLN, WCW, Radio Pacifica and Democracy now. Not to mention the Koslings and DU

185 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:32:48pm

re: #183 Mich-again

He quotes Jack Cashill? Nice. So we have two people using each other as the source for a rumor.

re: #15 Guanxi88

Like Umberto Eco's diabolicals, they all quote one another to prove their theories.

186 Right mind left  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #174 CommonCents

Anything over a screen-full with my microscopic font is not brief.
/

I found that if I hit control and the plus sign it makes things really big!!! I was so thrilled to find that trick (in firefox), especially with the tiny normal font found in so many places including here!

187 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:33:07pm

re: #165 tradewind

Go run your own Lexis/Nexus Search on Foster and the WSJ. It happened, even if you didn't pay attention at the time and feel uncomfortable about it now.

188 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:34:54pm

re: #186 Right mind left

I found that if I hit control and the plus sign it makes things really big!!! I was so thrilled to find that trick (in firefox), especially with the tiny normal font found in so many places including here!

Somebody needs bi-focals.

189 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #187 iceweasel

Go run your own Lexis/Nexus Search on Foster and the WSJ. It happened, even if you didn't pay attention at the time and feel uncomfortable about it now.

Do you really think the WSJ drove him to his death? Isn't that just the flip side of saying Hillary and Bill did it?

190 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:35:24pm

re: #177 tradewind

Give it up. Your initial statement that the WSJ contributed to Vince Foster's suicide was ludicrous enough.

See my 187. BTW, Foster mentioned them in his suicide note.

191 Locker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:35:27pm

re: #186 Right mind left

I found that if I hit control and the plus sign it makes things really big!!! I was so thrilled to find that trick (in firefox), especially with the tiny normal font found in so many places including here!

You can also hold down CTRL and use your mousewheel to quickly increase or decrease size on a webpage.

192 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:36:01pm
just as Betsy McCaughey brought down HillaryCare,

...
Oh, stop... you've been reading way too much HuffPo. The National Review really didn't have all that powah in one little piece.
She'd be so happy you think that, though.

193 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:36:29pm

re: #190 iceweasel

See my 187. BTW, Foster mentioned them in his suicide note.

It read like a draft letter of resignation, and was found torn in pieces in his briefcase - not typical for a suicide note, which I don't think he left at all. Some folk don't leave a note, they just go.

194 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:36:40pm

Rangle dodges another bullet...no surprise the donks avoid doing the right thing...I wonder how Pelosi voted?

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

195 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:37:17pm

re: #190 iceweasel

See my 187. BTW, Foster mentioned them in his suicide note.

"A suicide note of sorts, actually a draft of a resignation letter, was found torn into 27 pieces in his briefcase, a list of complaints specifically including, "The WSJ editors lie without consequence"[15] and lamenting, "I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport.""

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

196 Locker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:37:19pm

OT: One of the best things I get to do every week is a Wednesday lunch visit to Capitol Dawg here in Sacramento. Usually it's a dog with chili, american cheese, spicy brown mustard and grilled onions. Today I figured I'd try the onion rings and they were STELLAR! No super hard, overly fried rings with flakes of batter falling off. These were beer batter dipped and cooked to perfection.

AMAZING LUNCH!

197 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:37:28pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

Do you really think the WSJ drove him to his death? Isn't that just the flip side of saying Hillary and Bill did it?

1. The WSJ pushed conspiracy theories about Foster's death, and various other lunatic smears. This is fact.
2. Foster mentioned the WSJ in his suicide note. This is also fact.
3. Like any suicide, I presume Foster had numerous problems (including depression), and as with any suicide, their notes reveal their unbalanced state-- not reality.

i really don't see what's controversial about these statements.

198 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:37:59pm

Here's the snopes.com article re: Ayers and Obama...The article attempts to dispell the many erroneous rumors which have been in circulation...

199 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:38:30pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

Do you really think the WSJ drove him to his death? Isn't that just the flip side of saying Hillary and Bill did it?

IMHO, yes, it is just as idiotic.

200 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:38:31pm

People, people. We are missing one of most important factors of all: What has Ron Paul had to say about this?

201 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:38:36pm

re: #197 iceweasel

1. The WSJ pushed conspiracy theories about Foster's death, and various other lunatic smears. This is fact.
2. Foster mentioned the WSJ in his suicide note. This is also fact.
3. Like any suicide, I presume Foster had numerous problems (including depression), and as with any suicide, their notes reveal their unbalanced state-- not reality.

i really don't see what's controversial about these statements.

Wasn't a suicide note.

202 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:38:38pm

re: #154 wrenchwench

I don't think that's what's going on here. I think the wingnutosphere is getting smeared by its association with the blogger who missed the sarc in an encounter with Ayers.

I disagree, but I think it is just a matter of semantics. A "smear" is something undeserved and unjust, so in this case it is not true to say that Charles is smearing Backyard Conservative.

BTW I have never noticed the blogosphere in general to ever have been more ethical or accurate than the MSM. LGF has been one of the rare exceptions thanks to Charles' scrupulous fact-checking and anti-idiotarianism, and that is why I am here.

203 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:39:01pm

re: #187 iceweasel

Not for nothing, but are you by any chance living outside the US? Because there's a definite feeling that's quite similar to stuff done in the UK tabloids on the state of US politics and the Clintons in general.

204 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:39:33pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

Do you really think the WSJ drove him to his death? Isn't that just the flip side of saying Hillary and Bill did it?

of course i don't think that. That is the misreading tradewind would like to propagate, because he doesn't want to deal with the fact that the WSJ was quite happy to peddle smears about Foster's death.

205 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:39:48pm

re: #197 iceweasel

Go read #195 again.

206 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:39:57pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

Whatever. Resignation letter.

207 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:40:10pm

re: #150 lurking faith

According to this, the country was somewhat functional before the Soviet invasion, but the Taliban threat lurked just under the surface. After the Soviet invasion, the Taliban threat was multiplied by that of the Islamists who came on a jihad tour (and stayed). Al Qaeda came in on the heels (and concurrently) with the jihad world tour that the Saudis were funding among Afghan expats living in Pakistan (and who were discriminated against by the Pakistanis even though historical boundaries of various Afghan sects crossed the modern borders (and which is one of the reasons for the ongoing cross-border madness).

208 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:40:13pm

re: #190 iceweasel

A note that indicated by definition that he was unwell.
Sorry, journalism just isn't the culprit there. Someone around him not paying attention , maybe.

209 shiplord kirel  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:40:25pm

I know a person who is completely convinced the Clintons assassinated Ron Brown, Vince Foster and many others. He has literally dozens of books on the subject.
There is absolutely no reasoning with him over this: When I ask him why the Bush administration would cover for the Clinton's alleged atrocities, he simply responds that they are obviously afraid of Hillary's FBI files. Apparently he believes that blackmail can uniformly, and predictably, subvert and cow the dozens or perhaps hundreds of people who would have direct knowledge of these goings on.
Not surprisingly, he said the same thing when I asked him why Hawaii governor Linda Lingle, a Republican, would cover for Obama's alleged lack of a birth certificate.
Conspiracy theorists, and believers, thrive on slander and lies. They not only slander the direct targets of their claims, they slander every responsible person who doesn't support those claims, since an allegation that someone is being successfully blackmailed implies something to hide.

210 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:40:28pm

re: #205 Honorary Yooper

Go read #195 again.

Doesn't change the initial point.

211 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:40:29pm

re: #206 iceweasel

Whatever. Resignation letter.

Thanks.

212 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:41:02pm

re: #197 iceweasel

1. The WSJ pushed conspiracy theories about Foster's death, and various other lunatic smears. This is fact.
2. Foster mentioned the WSJ in his suicide note. This is also fact.
3. Like any suicide, I presume Foster had numerous problems (including depression), and as with any suicide, their notes reveal their unbalanced state-- not reality.

i really don't see what's controversial about these statements.

1) mentioning the theory that he was killed after his death cannot be interpreted as causing him to be depressed enough to commit suicide. Which is it? Did they drive him to his death, or didn't they?

2) It's not a suicide note, it's a letter of resignation. The way it was found (torn into little pieces in his bag) suggests to me he wrote it, thought better of it, and then decided to do himself in later);

3) There was no suicide note; he just killed himself without saying goodbye.

213 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #206 iceweasel

Whatever. Resignation letter.

Not "whatever". There is a big difference between a resignation letter and a suicide note.

214 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:41:58pm

re: #154 wrenchwench

I don't think that's what's going on here. I think the wingnutosphere is getting smeared by its association with the blogger who missed the sarc in an encounter with Ayers.

They're smearing themselves by their eagerness to link to the story and believe it.

215 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:41:59pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Thanks.

How many pieces was it torn into? I have a theory...

216 Idle Drifter  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:42:34pm

re: #200 Dante41

Phase 1: Start squabble over nothing with no evidence.
Phase 2: Ron Paul
Phase 3: ???
Phase 4: Profit!

217 TedStriker  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:42:38pm

re: #128 Thanos

Did the poles just reverse?

Nah, just a delayed reaction from a hard-left Donk now that her party's been running the WH for, lemme see, almost 9 months and the soldiers are still in Iraq and Afghanistan...

/maybe?

218 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:43:17pm

re: #212 Guanxi88

The WSJ ran with various Clinton smears, before Fosters death, and afterwards they were perfectly happy to propagate smears about that too.

That's my only claim here, and it's simply fact.

219 bosforus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:43:19pm

re: #182 Charles

I'd forgo the warnings and just ban 'em. Lizards should be smarter than that.

220 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:44:10pm

re: #218 iceweasel

The WSJ ran with various Clinton smears, before Fosters death, and afterwards they were perfectly happy to propagate smears about that too.

That's my only claim here, and it's simply fact.

I'll agree on that; there was a hell of a lot of pointless smearing of the Clintons. Those two were crooked, not evil, and there was no need to make stuff up.

221 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:44:37pm

re: #209 shiplord kirel

I recently read (sorry, I've forgotten the source) that any society which is embued with conspiracy theories (say those nations which are steeped in them) is a very sick society (it's like a measure of the "health" of the society). (a very high percentage of Canadians, for example, are Truthers..)

222 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:45:02pm

re: #202 Spare O'Lake

I disagree, but I think it is just a matter of semantics. A "smear" is something undeserved and unjust, so in this case it is not true to say that Charles is smearing Backyard Conservative.

BTW I have never noticed the blogosphere in general to ever have been more ethical or accurate than the MSM. LGF has been one of the rare exceptions thanks to Charles' scrupulous fact-checking and anti-idiotarianism, and that is why I am here.

That's not what I meant. Let me try again. Did you see how many blogs have links and trackbacks at the end of the post by Backyard Conservative? Those blogs are smearing themselves by association with her stupid post.

223 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:45:44pm

Or: what iceweasel said:

re: #214 iceweasel

They're smearing themselves by their eagerness to link to the story and believe it.

224 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:46:00pm

re: #218 iceweasel

The WSJ ran with various Clinton smears, before Fosters death, and afterwards they were perfectly happy to propagate smears about that too.

That's my only claim here, and it's simply fact.

You say "tomato", I say "tomoto", you say smears, I say investigative reporting, which has become a lost art in journalism.

225 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:46:18pm

re: #150 lurking faith

I thought Afghanistan was supposed to have been a pretty decent country before the Soviet Union decided to mess it up. Am I misinformed?

Back in the 60s, they had American cars driving on Soviet roads. Or maybe it was the other way around. Then the communist coup happened, which sparked an insurgency, which prompted the Soviet invasion, which etc., etc...

226 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:46:22pm

re: #206 iceweasel

Whatever. Resignation letter.

You don't think there's a serious difference between a resignation letter and a suicide note? Interesting. In any event, why is anyone looking at wiki when one should be looking at the original sources - the WSJ and other contemporaneous news reports.

227 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:46:39pm

re: #220 Guanxi88

I'll agree on that; there was a hell of a lot of pointless smearing of the Clintons. Those two were crooked, not evil, and there was no need to make stuff up.

Same thing is happening now. There are loads of legitimate criticisms to have of Obama and his policies; instead we're drowning in a sea of wingnut froth about Ayers being a ghostwriter and Kenyan birth certificates and other insanity.

228 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:46:41pm

re: #218 iceweasel

Okay, no problem. For a minute, I could have sworn you were trying to accuse them of contributing to his death.
Glad that's cleared up.
//

229 Idle Drifter  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:47:03pm

BBL

230 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:47:22pm

re: #223 wrenchwench

Or: what iceweasel said:

I can see the other side too though, a smear is typically undeserved. . .whereas folks who willingly link themselves obviously false conspiracy theories like this deserve the ridicule they get.

231 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:47:23pm

re: #227 iceweasel

Same thing is happening now. There are loads of legitimate criticisms to have of Obama and his policies; instead we're drowning in a sea of wingnut froth about Ayers being a ghostwriter and Kenyan birth certificates and other insanity.

Well, that's because that kind of stuff is more "fun" than actually having to figure out what's going on.

232 shiplord kirel  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:47:37pm

re: #220 Guanxi88

I'll agree on that; there was a hell of a lot of pointless smearing of the Clintons. Those two were crooked, not evil, and there was no need to make stuff up.

Fever Swampers coined the term "Arkancide" to refer to the numerous murders the Clintons were alleged to have committed during and after Bill's tenure as governor. Extreme conspira-liars claim this ran into the hundreds, ie a high percentage of all the homicides in the state during that period.

233 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:47:43pm

Even with song like 'You Know You're Right' and 'I Hate Myself and Want to Die' some people couldn't accept the fact Kurt Cobain committed suicide due to drug abuse and untreated depression. It was easier for their flawed heads to latch onto a conspiracy theory, complete with misogyny (his evil wife was trying to get his money!), than it was to grasp the truth.

Certain portions of the population will always latch onto a conspiracy, whether it's a celebrity death to political innuendo meant to discredit The Enemy. To see it getting popularized on the internet should come as no surprise. It's an effective tool for mainstreaming, which is why it's more important than ever to be vigilant against it.

234 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:48:14pm

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

You say "tomato", I say "tomoto", you say smears, I say investigative reporting, which has become a lost art in journalism.

if anybody deserved investigating, it's the Clinton Gang...they skated and the media dropped the ball...Bill is so charming...spit on those two

235 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:48:18pm

re: #228 tradewind

Okay, no problem. For a minute, I could have sworn you were trying to accuse them of contributing to his death.
Glad that's cleared up.
//

For a moment there, I would have sworn you were trying to derail the thread into something about Foster and 'lefties', because you were getting your ass kicked on the Cashill business.

I'd say it's cleared up.

236 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:49:35pm

re: #232 shiplord kirel

Fever Swampers coined the term "Arkancide" to refer to the numerous murders the Clintons were alleged to have committed during and after Bill's tenure as governor. Extreme conspira-liars claim this ran into the hundreds, ie a high percentage of all the homicides in the state during that period.

Well, I'm not accusing anybody of anything, I just note that a lot of unsolved deaths happened in Arkansas before the Clintons "decided" to move to Washington, where there were a whole bunch more unsolved killings afterward. When Hillary and Bill went to New York, there were many unsolved killings afterward. Just sayin'

///

237 bosforus  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:49:42pm

re: #202 Spare O'Lake

BTW I have never noticed the blogosphere in general to ever have been more ethical or accurate than the MSM. LGF has been one of the rare exceptions thanks to Charles' scrupulous fact-checking and anti-idiotarianism, and that is why I am here.

Wait just a gol' darn minute. So you're trying to say that a community of "quest for truth" armchair journalists don't do more fact checking than a multi-million dollar news outlet? I'm shocked!
I've actually always been under the impression that blogs were outright and blatantly biased (if not dis-honest).

238 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:49:49pm

re: #232 shiplord kirel

Fever Swampers coined the term "Arkancide" to refer to the numerous murders the Clintons were alleged to have committed during and after Bill's tenure as governor. Extreme conspira-liars claim this ran into the hundreds, ie a high percentage of all the homicides in the state during that period.

Don't forget the rumours about drugsmuggling and other craziness too.

239 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:50:07pm

Re conspiracy sites...
We're gonna need a list. Too often, I just follow google where it leads when I type in a subject, and I don't regularly read a lot of political blogs other than LGF.

240 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:50:45pm

re: #227 iceweasel

Same thing is happening now. There are loads of legitimate criticisms to have of Obama and his policies; instead we're drowning in a sea of wingnut froth about Ayers being a ghostwriter and Kenyan birth certificates and other insanity.

Very true. As it happened for the past eight years as well. (I'm not letting anyone get away unscathed here.) There was a ton of wingnut crap about Clinton, a ton of moonbat shit about Bush, and another ton of wingnut crap again here about Obama. All had or have legitimate criticisms that are being swallowed up by the nonsense.

Civil political discourse has been dead for a very long time if it even existed as more than a figment of the imagination in the first place.

241 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:51:30pm

re: #230 Yashmak

I can see the other side too though, a smear is typically undeserved. . .whereas folks who willingly link themselves obviously false conspiracy theories like this deserve the ridicule they get.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's the other side. Maybe just the more articulate side.

242 Right mind left  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:51:50pm

re: #191 Locker

You can also hold down CTRL and use your mousewheel to quickly increase or decrease size on a webpage.

HAHAHAHAaa..you just wanted me to lock up my computer!!! My mouse wheel is way too sensitive for that and I think it became the jolly green giant because the screen went white and I tried backing it off, when it finally recovered I had a micro-font you needed binoculars to find and I was on a different page!!! It took me all this time to find my way back.

See if I listen to you anymore...thanks!!!
//

243 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:52:18pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

Wasn't a suicide note.

re: #206 iceweasel

Whatever. Resignation letter.

You say tomAtoe, I say tomAHtoe

same thing!!

//

yeeesh!

244 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #238 iceweasel

Don't forget the rumours about drugsmuggling and other craziness too.

My favorite was the implication (on the famous list) that they arranged the death of several of their own secret service guys in helicopter crashes. Imagining Bill chuckling menacingly as he worked at sabotaging a government helicopter always gave me a laugh.

245 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:53:14pm

re: #235 iceweasel

If you track back, you'll see that I am not the person who brought up Vince Foster, or tried to ' go there'. I had no idea who Cashill was, either, until I was told.

246 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:55:23pm

re: #240 Honorary Yooper

Very true. As it happened for the past eight years as well. (I'm not letting anyone get away unscathed here.) There was a ton of wingnut crap about Clinton, a ton of moonbat shit about Bush, and another ton of wingnut crap again here about Obama. All had or have legitimate criticisms that are being swallowed up by the nonsense.

Civil political discourse has been dead for a very long time if it even existed as more than a figment of the imagination in the first place.

the stuff going on now is different and uglier. It's bled into the mainstream and is being pushed by elected GOP officials and mainstream right pundits. Like ten congressmen co-sponsering a nirther bill to pander to the base. Like elected officials running away from the camera rather than state that they believe Obama is a citizen. It's like the GOP just gave up on all the reasonable people on the right and decided that allcrazy allthetime was their new platform.

247 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:55:49pm

re: #233 Sharmuta

there's another problem as well -- with respect to our current, electronic media -- in the past, some small radical, crazoid group -- how could they get their nuttiness out there? (Here in Canada, some would climb up on a high building and drop down leaflets; or some would stand on street corners and shout out their "message." Much of it ignored and not bothered with.) But now, in today's world, it's just so much easier to "spread" and get that "message" out -- through the Internet, YouTube, etc., and, before you know it, it's "gone viral." (it becomes similar to trying to stamp out the flames, as the crazoids run around with the gasoline cans.) And, then, there's another problem, by even saying: "Conspiracy Theory X is outrageous and I'm gonna stop it!" which thereby brings yet more attention to it...

248 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:57:12pm

re: #246 iceweasel

It's like the GOP just gave up on all the reasonable people on the right and decided that allcrazy allthetime was their new platform.

It seems like that to me too. It has actually left me feeling rather betrayed.

249 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:57:35pm

Charles, how about a blog post on the top 10 problems that the US is facing. Pretty please?

250 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:58:08pm

re: #238 iceweasel

Don't forget the rumours about drugsmuggling and other craziness too.

And that the BATF agents who were killed at Waco were really ex-troopers from Arkansas who knew too much about Clinton's antics.

And that blowing up the Murrah building in OKC was done to destroy all the BATF files from Waco.

251 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:58:35pm

re: #249 JRCMYP

Charles, how about a blog post on the top 10 problems that the US is facing. Pretty please?

I do not want LGF to devolve into a discussion of my family and co-workers. I come here to get away from all that.

252 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:58:36pm

re: #249 JRCMYP

How bout you start your own blog and post whatever the fuck you want and stop telling Charles what to do on his. mmm-kay?

253 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:59:07pm

re: #249 JRCMYP

Charles, how about a blog post on the top 10 problems that the US is facing. Pretty please?

#1.) People who should have their own blogs instead tell others what to post on theirs.

#2.) (your turn)

254 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:59:33pm

re: #246 iceweasel

Like ten congressmen co-sponsering a nirther bill to pander to the base. Like elected officials running away from the camera rather than state that they believe Obama is a citizen.

Like an AG calling for ex CIA lawyers to be investigated for doing their jobs
Like congressman calling for articles of impeachment for the sitting president doing his job
Like former VP's screaming HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS

Like that ???

255 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:59:38pm

re: #248 Yashmak

It seems like that to me too. It has actually left me feeling rather betrayed.

I think tons of good people on the right and real conservatives feel betrayed and have felt that way for a long time.

256 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 12:59:39pm

re: #246 iceweasel

the stuff going on now is different and uglier.

Part of the reason why it never got beyond the larval stage with the Democrats early in GW Bush's tenure is because a rather large Islamic terrorist incident occurred on September 11, 2001. Things liek that tend to put the kibash on wingnut parties. We're past that point with Obama now.

Of course, it did rear its ugly head now and then. Anyone remember the impeachment crap that was going on? And yes, it was congressmen. They were pissed because they never had control enough to do it. Anyone remember Dan Rather during the 2004 election? It's so easy to gloss over infractions when they are in the rearview mirror.

257 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:00:02pm

re: #249 JRCMYP

Charles, how about a blog post on the top 10 problems that the US is facing. Pretty please?

1) Pushy-assed blog posters.

258 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:00:17pm

re: #250 mich-again

And Americans, the Evil Ones, control the climate! Yeah, and George W. Bush casued the Katerina Hurricane, cause he hates blacks. And, that Tsunami around Xmas was due to an American miltary underwater explosion!

259 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:00:35pm

O/T a bit..
I swear this is not satire, nor Onion fodder: a selection of art chosen by the Obamas to hang in the WH. From the NYT...
You can't make this stuff up.
Image: 07borrow-650.jpg

260 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:00:37pm

re: #239 tradewind

Re conspiracy sites...
We're gonna need a list. Too often, I just follow google where it leads when I type in a subject, and I don't regularly read a lot of political blogs other than LGF.

InfoWars should be right out. Lew Rockwell's site, I forget exactly what it is called, is an obvious one as well. Whatreallyhappened is also a big one.

Those are the three big anti-American troofer sites. You can't keep track of all the small ones, but those three are where most of the idiots congregate.

261 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: #103 shiplord kirel

You would probably find a similar stylistic leap at some point in my writing career. I would judge the biggest improvement to have come during the time I worked as an editor.
Btw, a well-meaning(?) friend has told me that my writing has declined from a peak it allegedly reached a few years ago.

I had the same experience. When I worked as an editor it changed my writing style dramatically for the better. Although you wouldn't know it now. I mostly write copy about toys Lots o' superlatives.

262 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:01:27pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

Like ten congressmen co-sponsering a nirther bill to pander to the base. Like elected officials running away from the camera rather than state that they believe Obama is a citizen.

Like an AG calling for ex CIA lawyers to be investigated for doing their jobs
Like congressman calling for articles of impeachment for the sitting president doing his job
Like former VP's screaming HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS

Like that ???

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised we'd reached the lightening round of the thread, where your objective is to rapidfire any and all complaints about anything the left might have done that you don't like, rather than keep to the topic thread -- or criticise the right.

263 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

#1.) People who should have their own blogs instead tell others what to post on theirs.

#2.) (your turn)

Oh stop. Several people (two?) have mentioned that the right-wing nutters are spinning around conspiracy theories while the country is facing much bigger issues. I wasn't criticizing Charles.

264 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:02:10pm

re: #258 J.S.

Halliburton!

265 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:02:41pm

re: #259 tradewind

hahahahahahhahaahhahahahaaa

266 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:03:03pm

re: #262 iceweasel

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised we'd reached the lightening round of the thread, where your objective is to rapidfire any and all complaints about anything the left might have done that you don't like, rather than keep to the topic thread -- or criticise the right.

Warning... warning... blog monitor on site... thread topic spinning out of control... warning... warning... danger Will Robinson

267 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:03:45pm

re: #249 JRCMYP

Charles, how about a blog post on the top 10 problems that the US is facing. Pretty please?

In no particular order of importance or threat:

1. The Economy
2. Pat Buchanan*
3. Hydrox Cookies
4. Rock 'n Roll (specifically, Elvis' hip shaking)
5. Chewing Gum
6. Dracula*
7. Crotchless Panties
8. The Heartache of Psoriasis
9. Cthulhu
10. The Teletubies (seriously, they have teh ghey)

*Technically they are one and the same, but the threat is so massive he deserves to be mentioned twice

268 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:03:47pm

re: #263 JRCMYP

Oh stop. Several people (two?) have mentioned that the right-wing nutters are spinning around conspiracy theories while the country is facing much bigger issues. I wasn't criticizing Charles.

And...I do have a blog. A very sad, lonely blog that I neglect. It's about toys. And play. And how the CPSIA is killing the toy industry.

269 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:03:49pm

re: #262 iceweasel

I'm sorry, I hadn't realised we'd reached the lightening round of the thread, where your objective is to rapidfire any and all complaints about anything the left might have done that you don't like, rather than keep to the topic thread -- or criticise the right.

I see. So NO critique of 'the past" is allowed because ,,.

A) you say so?
B) it shows your premise (the stuff going on now is different and uglier) is incorrect
C) you don't like it
D) all of the above!

270 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:04:28pm

re: #260 Dante41

Thanks. The only one of those I have ever even heard of is the whatreallyhappened thingy, and I thought that was a far-left hangout.
Shows how much I (don't) know.

271 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:04:57pm

0bama is a super-android built by George Soros and programmed by Noam Chomsky.

Prove me wrong!

272 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:05:02pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

2. Pat Buchanan*
6. Dracula*
*Technically they are one and the same, but the threat is so massive he deserves to be mentioned twice

You know, I have never seen them in the same place at the same time...

273 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:05:07pm

re: #233 Sharmuta

Even with song like 'You Know You're Right' and 'I Hate Myself and Want to Die' some people couldn't accept the fact Kurt Cobain committed suicide due to drug abuse and untreated depression. It was easier for their flawed heads to latch onto a conspiracy theory, complete with misogyny (his evil wife was trying to get his money!), than it was to grasp the truth.

Certain portions of the population will always latch onto a conspiracy, whether it's a celebrity death to political innuendo meant to discredit The Enemy. To see it getting popularized on the internet should come as no surprise. It's an effective tool for mainstreaming, which is why it's more important than ever to be vigilant against it.

One thing I've never understood about Conspiracy Theory buffs: why do they think they're worth conspiring against?

274 JRCMYP  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:05:18pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

In no particular order of importance or threat:

1. The Economy
2. Pat Buchanan*
3. Hydrox Cookies
4. Rock 'n Roll (specifically, Elvis' hip shaking)
5. Chewing Gum
6. Dracula*
7. Crotchless Panties
8. The Heartache of Psoriasis
9. Cthulhu
10. The Teletubies (seriously, they have teh ghey)

*Technically they are one and the same, but the threat is so massive he deserves to be mentioned twice

Thank you :)

275 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:05:35pm

re: #264 mich-again

Hey, c'mon now "Americans went to war for THE OIL. The OIL I tells ya" is considered "factual." (On 9/11 this year the CBC featured just such a "historian" who rambled on about the American Imperialist Military War Machine occuping and murdering innocent Iraqis/Afghans, etc.)

276 Yashmak  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:05:44pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

In no particular order of importance or threat:

9. Cthulhu

Cthulhu only rates 9th? How the mighty have fallen.

277 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:06:35pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth

In no particular order of importance or threat:


3. Hydrox Cookies


Why Hydrox cookies? Whatta ya got against nasty paleo-Oreos?

I guess you don't dig Moxie tonic, either?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

278 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:06:39pm

re: #255 iceweasel

I think tons of good people on the right and real conservatives feel betrayed and have felt that way for a long time.

nah...I don't get too shook up about what the 'right' is doing or pushing...I mean really, look what they did with Charlie Rangle today in the House...being lied to, distracted and misrepresented is hardly anything new or particularly 'right'...I care alot more about what the left has done to Detroit than who writes BO's books...Americans are getting cheated out of good, reliable govt by both sides...

279 Neutral President  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:06:43pm

re: #267 Slumbering Behemoth


3. Hydrox Cookies

Damn those things! I think they are Oreo cookies, put one in my mouth and WHAM... disappointment.

280 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:06:59pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

I see. So NO critique of 'the past" is allowed because ,,.

A) you say so?
B) it shows your premise (the stuff going on now is different and uglier) is incorrect
C) you don't like it
D) all of the above!

That one is false, and as for the others, I can give you a list to match the list you provided upthread. So could anyone. I think it's boring.

281 tradewind  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:08:28pm

re: #265 debutaunt

That was my first response as well, and then I realized they weren't kidding.

282 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:08:29pm

re: #272 Dante41

You know, I have never seen them in the same place at the same time...

I know, right?

re: #276 Yashmak

Cthulhu only rates 9th? How the mighty have fallen.

I said the list was in no particular order or importance of threat. Besides, I'm taking a break for a while.

283 Irenicum  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:08:45pm

This may have already been linked, but here's TWI's debunking of the whole Ayers thingy.

284 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:08:53pm

re: #280 iceweasel

That one is false, and as for the others, I can give you a list to match the list you provided upthread. So could anyone. I think it's boring.

"B" is false because you say so

Well ,.,,,as long as there is an actual REASON! Okay!

285 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:23pm

IW: Two names: Kucinich, McKinney. Both democrats at the time. You aren't on firm ground here.

286 arethusa  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:28pm

re: #279 ArchangelMichael

Damn those things! I think they are Oreo cookies, put one in my mouth and WHAM... disappointment.

They don't make Hydrox anymore, I think...BUT sometimes you can find them still on the shelves in old convenience stores! (Presuming you want to.)

287 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:49pm

re: #271 SixDegrees

0bama is a super-android built by George Soros and programmed by Noam Chomsky.

Prove me wrong!

where do I sign?...need a check?

288 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #270 tradewind

Thanks. The only one of those I have ever even heard of is the whatreallyhappened thingy, and I thought that was a far-left hangout.
Shows how much I (don't) know.

Oh, no. That is one of the biggest repositories of (wacko)libertarians on the internet. If anything bad happens in the world, they can link it back to the US or Israel. Which includes the incident in Iran(Zionist coup to reinstate the Shah).

And Rockwell's site is just his name dot com. If you want some fun reading, dig and find the post where he tries to claim that the CDC is an arm of the Police State because they quarantined the TB-dickbag.

/and you never heard of Alex Jones' Infowars? really?

289 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:57pm

re: #246 iceweasel

the stuff going on now is different and uglier. It's bled into the mainstream and is being pushed by elected GOP officials and mainstream right pundits. Like ten congressmen co-sponsering a nirther bill to pander to the base. Like elected officials running away from the camera rather than state that they believe Obama is a citizen. It's like the GOP just gave up on all the reasonable people on the right and decided that allcrazy allthetime was their new platform.

Yes there is quite a bit of that.
Of course many of their political foes *ahem* do tend to exaggerate, over-generalize, dramatize, distort and generally try to use these shortcomings to deflect attention away from the Dems' own extremely serious problems.

290 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:09:59pm

re: #277 Guanxi88

Why Hydrox cookies? Whatta ya got against nasty paleo-Oreos?

This:

re: #279 ArchangelMichael

Damn those things! I think they are Oreo cookies, put one in my mouth and WHAM... disappointment.

ArchangelMichael totally gets it.

291 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:10:08pm

re: #259 tradewind

O/T a bit..
I swear this is not satire, nor Onion fodder: a selection of art chosen by the Obamas to hang in the WH. From the NYT...
You can't make this stuff up.
[Link: graphics8.nytimes.com...]

That's an interesting piece of art. Is that supposed to show something about Obama?

292 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:10:09pm

re: #286 arethusa

They don't make Hydrox anymore, I think...BUT sometimes you can find them still on the shelves in old convenience stores! (Presuming you want to.)

I loved the things when I could still get 'em. Ya either love 'em or don't - and my grandparents always kept them for us.

293 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:14:01pm

re: #289 Spare O'Lake

Yes there is quite a bit of that.
Of course many of their political foes *ahem* do tend to exaggerate, over-generalize, dramatize, distort and generally try to use these shortcomings to deflect attention away from the Dems' own extremely serious problems.

Blame the GOP. They're running their own freakshow, and not pointing out any thing relevant. You can't blame other people for pointing and laughing at them.

It'd be nice if we saw some genuine discourse or genuine discussion about genuine issues, but the GOP and the right prefers to talk about death panels, count the number of times Obama says "I", and other such.

Better opposition party, please.

294 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:14:06pm

re: #291 Charles

That's an interesting piece of art. Is that supposed to show something about Obama?

If anything, it shows that everyone has their own opinion on what construes modern "art". Seeing how the spectrum of that movement is nearly infinite, this is really nothing new.

295 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:14:28pm

re: #279 ArchangelMichael

Damn those things! I think they are Oreo cookies, put one in my mouth and WHAM... disappointment.

It's a valuable life-lesson. I remember as a kid getting ahold of a bar of baker's chocolate. Took a big bite and was appalled and disgusted. Valuable life lesson there, just haven't learned it yet.

296 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:14:52pm

re: #291 Charles

That's an interesting piece of art. Is that supposed to show something about Obama?

Here is the list of artwork the Obama's selected.

And this is the one by Ed Ruscha, I Think I'll..

297 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:16:39pm

re: #286 arethusa

They don't make Hydrox anymore, I think...BUT sometimes you can find them still on the shelves in old convenience stores! (Presuming you want to.)

I think they still do

[Link: investor.kelloggs.com...]

298 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:16:41pm

re: #295 Guanxi88

It's a valuable life-lesson. I remember as a kid getting ahold of a bar of baker's chocolate. Took a big bite and was appalled and disgusted. Valuable life lesson there, just haven't learned it yet.

A koan...

Take two bites of bakers chocolate and tell me which tree you scurry up?

299 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:17:08pm

re: #259 tradewind

O/T a bit..
I swear this is not satire, nor Onion fodder: a selection of art chosen by the Obamas to hang in the WH. From the NYT...
You can't make this stuff up.
[Link: graphics8.nytimes.com...]

Out of the dozen or so pieces I saw earlier today (that didn't include this one) this is at least interesting. The others were, well, not all that engaging.

300 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:17:30pm

re: #291 Charles

That's an interesting piece of art. Is that supposed to show something about Obama?

It shows they have very lousy taste in art.
I wonder how much the artist got paid for that piece of shit?

301 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:17:58pm

re: #289 Spare O'Lake

Yes there is quite a bit of that.
Of course many of their political foes *ahem* do tend to exaggerate, over-generalize, dramatize, distort and generally try to use these shortcomings to deflect attention away from the Dems' own extremely serious problems.

it's an entire cottage industry...conservatives go off the rails, and liberals beat the shit out of them...the only new aspect of it is the internet...frankly I think it's a small percentage of total voters caught up in this circular feud...meanwhile the democrats are misfiring at every step running the govt, and the republicans provide them with a shiny object...if the whole thing wasn't so sordid it would be laughable and generally is to me...I think I've voted in my last presidential election...the party with an arrow through it's head vs. the party with a red rubber nose

302 arethusa  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:18:49pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

I think they still do

[Link: investor.kelloggs.com...]

That's hilarious. There was a "Bring Back Hydrox" campaign??

And Oreos were based on Hydrox, not the other way around?

303 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:19:30pm

Study for Homage to the Square. Nacre.

My rule of thumb for art is that if I could paint a reasonable facsimile, its not very impressive art.

304 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:19:44pm

re: #296 Mich-again

Here is the list of artwork the Obama's selected.

And this is the one by Ed Ruscha, I Think I'll..

Heads up. When people aren't pretending that the Ruscha shows something about Obama (other than taste in art), these will be the works the wingnut sphere is going to concentrate on and complain about.

William H. Johnson – Booker T. Washington Legend – Smithsonian American Art Museum
• William H. Johnson – Children Dance – Smithsonian American Art Museum
• William H. Johnson – Flower to Teacher – Smithsonian American Art Museum
• William H. Johnson – folk Family – Smithsonian American Art

I left a link in teh overnights. Fox News Forums are already (and predictably) a cesspit.

305 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:20:06pm

re: #293 iceweasel

Blame the GOP. They're running their own freakshow, and not pointing out any thing relevant. You can't blame other people for pointing and laughing at them.

It'd be nice if we saw some genuine discourse or genuine discussion about genuine issues, but the GOP and the right prefers to talk about death panels, count the number of times Obama says "I", and other such.

Better opposition party, please.

for what?...let 'em run loose, nobody can stop them...meanwhile the democrats can't seem to get much accomplished even with historical power and golden BO...they are as laughable as anyone

306 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:21:23pm

re: #305 albusteve

Politics, pretty much across the board, sucks.

307 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:21:38pm

re: #303 Mich-again

Study for Homage to the Square. Nacre.

My rule of thumb for art is that if I could paint a reasonable facsimile, its not very impressive art.

It depends on the person, I guess. I mean, I find those scatterplot paintings to be pretty. Doesn't really matter to me that I could reproduce it with ease.

308 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:22:35pm

re: #302 arethusa

That's hilarious. There was a "Bring Back Hydrox" campaign??

And Oreos were based on Hydrox, not the other way around?

Thousands of little kids with home made signs outside of Kellogs,,, tipping over eployees cars,, setting fire to the big K sign !!

//

309 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:24:07pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

A koan...

Take two bites of bakers chocolate and tell me which tree you scurry up?

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

A koan...

Take two bites of bakers chocolate and tell me which tree you scurry up?

Three pounds of flax.

310 albusteve  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:25:53pm

re: #306 debutaunt

Politics, pretty much across the board, sucks.

Charlie 'the Slider' Rangle says it all imo

311 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:25:56pm

re: #300 Spare O'Lake

It shows they have very lousy taste in art.
I wonder how much the artist got paid for that piece of shit?

I'm not familiar with this particular artist, but the rest of their list is actually quite well rounded. Joseph Albers, Jasper Johns, Edgar Degas and a huge sampling of George Catlin is an impressive sampling, much broader and more interesting than the small collection that was linked earlier today. The Ruscha piece isn't exactly something I'd hang in my living room, but it's certainly a strong work.

312 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:26:24pm

re: #303 Mich-again

Study for Homage to the Square. Nacre.

My rule of thumb for art is that if I could paint a reasonable facsimile, its not very impressive art.

I should have kept all my microsoft paint .bmp files...

313 debutaunt  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:27:31pm

re: #226 lawhawk

You don't think there's a serious difference between a resignation letter and a suicide note? Interesting. In any event, why is anyone looking at wiki when one should be looking at the original sources - the WSJ and other contemporaneous news reports.

This is on Yahoo: " 'Whatever' so totally tops most annoying word poll in U.S."

314 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:28:47pm

re: #293 iceweasel

Blame the GOP. They're running their own freakshow, and not pointing out any thing relevant. You can't blame other people for pointing and laughing at them.

It'd be nice if we saw some genuine discourse or genuine discussion about genuine issues, but the GOP and the right prefers to talk about death panels, count the number of times Obama says "I", and other such.

Better opposition party, please.

And yet the MSM and SNL have turned on Obama, the Dems' poll numbers are in the toilet and, worst of all, Glenn Beck's ratings are right through the roof.
This whole crazy world is just too frustratin'.

315 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:29:56pm

re: #303 Mich-again

Study for Homage to the Square. Nacre.

My rule of thumb for art is that if I could paint a reasonable facsimile, its not very impressive art.

My standard answer to such complaints is: why don't you? Albers, for one, is considered an important artist from the Bauhaus school whose work is widely reproduced and sought after. By all means, cash in on your talents.

316 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:31:08pm

re: #304 iceweasel

How about this one..

Sam Francis – White Line – National Gallery of Art

Sam Francis the artist, not to be confused with Sam Francis, the supremacist who was a hero to the far right. Too rich. The Obama's have a painting called White Line from an artist called Sam Francis. Ha.

317 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:33:21pm

re: #311 SixDegrees

I'm not familiar with this particular artist, but the rest of their list is actually quite well rounded. Joseph Albers, Jasper Johns, Edgar Degas and a huge sampling of George Catlin is an impressive sampling, much broader and more interesting than the small collection that was linked earlier today. The Ruscha piece isn't exactly something I'd hang in my living room, but it's certainly a strong work.

LOL. It's "strong" all right.
But don't mind me, I have no art credentials and my idea of a great piece of modern art is Whistler's Mother or The Mona Lisa./

318 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:34:11pm

re: #311 SixDegrees

Nice to see all that Catlin getting exposed. I see they haven't found a place for the Rothko. I went to a Rothko retrospective before I knew anything about him. His squares kept getting darker and blacker until the end, where I learned that he had committed suicide. Maybe the Rothko should go live with Basement Cat.

319 bloodnok  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:36:24pm

re: #316 mich-again

How about this one..


Sam Francis the artist, not to be confused with Sam Francis, the supremacist who was a hero to the far right. Too rich. The Obama's have a painting called White Line from an artist called Sam Francis. Ha.

Heh on the coincidences with the name. But I do like the piece.

320 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:39:02pm

re: #316 mich-again

How about this one..

Sam Francis the artist, not to be confused with Sam Francis, the supremacist who was a hero to the far right. Too rich. The Obama's have a painting called White Line from an artist called Sam Francis. Ha.

Abstract Expressionism. Probably the most well known AE painter is Jackson Pollock, "The Dripper" as he's known. His work never made much sense to me until the following story was related. Pollock, like most artists, spent years attempting to develop a style that was uniquely his, at a time when Picasso's work cast an enormous shadow over the entire art world. After working through a long series of paintings, again and again Pollock would step back and find that ultimately, they all derived from some earlier work that Picasso had already produced - but better. One day, in complete frustration, he threw his canvas on the floor and started flinging paint at it with his bare hands, shouting "Damn Picasso!!!" with each fistful. And Abstract Expressionism was born, with it's attempt to capture the emotional state of the artist while the work itself was being produced.

I'm not a huge fan of AE myself, but at least now when I see it I find it a lot more approachable and understandable than I did before hearing this tale.

321 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:39:25pm

re: #319 bloodnok

But I do like the piece.

I think they should display that one on the White House refrigerator. A magnet in each corner to hold it up.

322 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:41:10pm

re: #232 shiplord kirel

Fever Swampers coined the term "Arkancide" to refer to the numerous murders the Clintons were alleged to have committed during and after Bill's tenure as governor. Extreme conspira-liars claim this ran into the hundreds, ie a high percentage of all the homicides in the state during that period.

There's already a Obama death list:
My Rightwing dad

And OMG!1! It's higher than the Clintons, already!

323 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #320 SixDegrees

One day, in complete frustration, he threw his canvas on the floor and started flinging paint at it with his bare hands, shouting "Damn Picasso!!!" with each fistful. And Abstract Expressionism was born, with it's attempt to capture the emotional state of the artist while the work itself was being produced.

Wee, that is certainly plausible because that is just what it looks like.

324 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #300 Spare O'Lake

It shows they have very lousy taste in art.
I wonder how much the artist got paid for that piece of shit?

Shrug. I like it.

Edward Ruscha is a famous, highly talented graphic artist.

325 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:43:11pm

No art collection is complete without Dogs Playing Poker.

326 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:43:57pm

re: #325 mich-again

No art collection is complete without Dogs Playing Poker.

The one that looks like Winston Churchill is cheating!

327 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:45:23pm

re: #325 mich-again

No art collection is complete without Dogs Playing Poker.

No southern house is complete without Big Mouth Billy Bass on the wall

Image: singing-fish-original.jpg

328 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:46:23pm

We have a couple original paintings by a local artist named Leo Kuschel and one of his paintings was displayed in the White House during GHWB presidency. A really cool guy Leo.

329 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:46:26pm

re: #318 wrenchwench

Nice to see all that Catlin getting exposed. I see they haven't found a place for the Rothko. I went to a Rothko retrospective before I knew anything about him. His squares kept getting darker and blacker until the end, where I learned that he had committed suicide. Maybe the Rothko should go live with Basement Cat.

Heh.

A lot of times with modern art, it's the story that goes along with it that's important. The surrealist Rene Magritte often depicts figures with their faces obscured in some fashion. When Magritte was a child, his mother committed suicide by drowning herself; Magritte followed her footsteps to the riverbank and discovered her body, with her nightgown wrapped around her face.

Once you know this story, you will never look at Magritte's work the same way again.

330 J.S.  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:46:28pm

re: #316 mich-again

From the text, "The difficulties of modernism" by Leonard Diepeveen, the author writes: "In 1990 the National Gallery of Canada purchased Barnett Newman's 1967 "Voice of Fire," a large canvas (5.4 meters high by 2.4 meters wide) consisting of two vertical blue stripes on either side of a central red stripe. After the gallery announced to the press the purchase price of U.S. $1.5 million, politicians, editorial cartoonists, and many members of the public erupted..[snip]...A cartoon in the Toronto Globe and Mail showed a woman complaining to a man who has just hung the painting: "What are you blind? You hung it upside down!"A house painter near Ottawa painted a copy of the Newman, titled it "Voice of the Taxpayer", and offered it for sale at $400...[snip] Inevitably, the national Gallery was called to defend its purchase before a panel of politicians, in this case the House of Commons culture committee, chaired by MP Felix Hotmann, who had said, 'It looks like two cans of paint and two rollers and about ten minutes would do the trick.'" p 85.

331 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:47:21pm

re: #324 Charles

Shrug. I like it.

Edward Ruscha is a famous, highly talented graphic artist.

Enjoy. To each his own. *shakes head and smiles*

332 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:48:29pm

re: #328 mich-again

We commissioned this one. He painted it from a photograph we took on a trip to the UP.

333 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:49:47pm

Personally, I feel that Ken Marschall needs more exposure. I would not mind having that painting of the Normandie on my wall.

334 mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #330 J.S.

'It looks like two cans of paint and two rollers and about ten minutes would do the trick.'"

Ha.

335 bloodnok  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:52:01pm

re: #329 SixDegrees

Heh.

A lot of times with modern art, it's the story that goes along with it that's important. The surrealist Rene Magritte often depicts figures with their faces obscured in some fashion. When Magritte was a child, his mother committed suicide by drowning herself; Magritte followed her footsteps to the riverbank and discovered her body, with her nightgown wrapped around her face.

Once you know this story, you will never look at Magritte's work the same way again.

I didn't know this. And thank you for telling me that. I find things like that very useful when viewing any kind of art.

336 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 1:53:56pm

re: #329 SixDegrees

Heh.

A lot of times with modern art, it's the story that goes along with it that's important. The surrealist Rene Magritte often depicts figures with their faces obscured in some fashion. When Magritte was a child, his mother committed suicide by drowning herself; Magritte followed her footsteps to the riverbank and discovered her body, with her nightgown wrapped around her face.

Once you know this story, you will never look at Magritte's work the same way again.

That is...haunting, to say the least.

337 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:00:09pm

re: #336 Dante41

That is...haunting, to say the least.

I should probably amend this sentence:

A lot of times with modernart, it's the story that goes along with it that's important.

because that's often the case with older art, as well. The work of Hieronymous Bosch, for example, strikes most people as simply bizarre, especially since it was painted in the 15th century. I'm not by any means an expert in this, but it turns out that all those fantastical creatures and objects in his work were part of an elaborate symbolic language that was well understood by his audience; the represent sins, virtues and other theological themes that would have been as immediately understandable to his audience as, say, an array of traffic signs would be to a modern viewer. Something I have to look into when I have more time.

338 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:03:02pm

re: #333 Dante41

Personally, I feel that Ken Marschall needs more exposure. I would not mind having that painting of the Normandie on my wall.

The Normandie I think was still the most beautiful liner ever.
Modern ones look like hotels stuck on ship hulls.

339 Mich-again  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:04:38pm

re: #337 SixDegrees

The work of Hieronymous Bosch, for example, strikes most people as simply bizarre


This painting The Bus Ride by him looks like the inspiration for "Where the Wild Things Are" a great children's book.

340 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:07:34pm

re: #338 Kosh's Shadow

The Normandie I think was still the most beautiful liner ever.
Modern ones look like hotels stuck on ship hulls.

Personally, I like the Rex better, but the Normandie is definitely up there. Say what you want about the French and Italians, but their ships were works of art.

And they look like floating hotels because they are floating hotels. They simply move more often than the Ritz.

341 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:08:45pm

Now this is ART!
One Nation Under God

342 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:14:45pm

re: #339 Mich-again

This painting The Bus Ride by him looks like the inspiration for "Where the Wild Things Are" a great children's book.

A soon-to-be-released film, as well.

I am almost certain to be disappointed.

343 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:16:08pm

re: #342 SixDegrees

A soon-to-be-released film, as well.

I am almost certain to be disappointed.

Don't be too certain. Early reviews say that it is actually good.

344 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:16:36pm

re: #340 Dante41

Personally, I like the Rex better, but the Normandie is definitely up there. Say what you want about the French and Italians, but their ships were works of art.

And they look like floating hotels because they are floating hotels. They simply move more often than the Ritz.

The Rex was beautiful; more shiplike and leaner than the Normandie. I still prefer the Normandie, though.

345 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:18:05pm

re: #341 doubter4444

Ugh! You forgot a sarc tag.

346 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:18:17pm

re: #343 Dante41

Don't be too certain. Early reviews say that it is actually good.

I've learned through bitter experience that it's always a good idea to drench myself with a bucket of freezing cold water before seeing anything made from a book I've enjoyed. Sometimes it isn't necessary, but those times are rare.

347 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:28:42pm

re: #344 Kosh's Shadow

The Rex was beautiful; more shiplike and leaner than the Normandie. I still prefer the Normandie, though.

Different schools of thought on ship design. Oddly enough, I read somewhere that the Normandie was more aerodynamic.

Still, it was a crime the way the Normandie burned in New York harbor.

348 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:33:12pm

re: #341 doubter4444

Now this is ART!
One Nation Under God

Wow. That is crying out for a parody I think.

349 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:37:21pm

re: #345 Slumbering Behemoth

Ugh! You forgot a sarc tag.

I did, sorry... it's pretty crazy.
I like the SCOUTS cases referred on the bottom the best, of course RvW, but why the interstate commerce one, Gibbons v Ogden? Is there something nefarious in regulation of interstate commerce that I missed?

350 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:38:08pm

re: #348 Jimmah

Wow. That is crying out for a parody I think.

I've already seen one where Brett Farve was inserted into it.

351 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:41:31pm

re: #348 Jimmah

Wow. That is crying out for a parody I think.

I don't know, it's a brilliant parody in itself.
And the Artist is dead serious. Can't make this stuff up.

352 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:42:06pm

re: #350 Dante41

I've already seen one where Brett Farve was inserted into it.

Awesome.

353 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:43:22pm

re: #352 doubter4444

Awesome.

Hang on, lemme go dig it up.

354 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:47:12pm

re: #350 Dante41

I've already seen one where Brett Farve was inserted into it.

Heh. Just imagining all the leading personalities of Greater Wingnuttia in there.

355 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:55:51pm

re: #351 doubter4444

I don't know, it's a brilliant parody in itself.
And the Artist is dead serious. Can't make this stuff up.

Oh yes - you can tell he regards it as his 'masterpiece'.

356 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 2:59:47pm

re: #352 doubter4444

Awesome.

Alright, I found it. Right here

And for good measure, here is the Fark thread about the painting. It is fucking hilarious.

Fark Link right here

357 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 3:05:33pm

re: #356 Dante41

Ahhh, Fark. It figures they'd have it, and alter it, first.
They are brutal, funny but brutal.

358 jvic  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 3:06:45pm

I'm just dashing by without time to read the whole thread, so apologies if the following is redundant.

As I posted a few months ago, there are methodologies to determine whether one author is using another's work. The developer of a major stylometric code concluded that the issue is not worth pursuing in depth.

To sum up, I have found no evidence for Cashill's ghostwriting hypothesis, and rather strong (albeit limited) evidence against. Note, moreover, that the discussion above is all fought on his own chosen ground - analyses and literary patterns that he himself has cited as likely to tell in his favour. It is impossible to know without searching carefully what other evidence against his hypothesis might turn up if one were to look for it. But at least we must judge it as extremely unlikely, and indeed so far unsubstantiated. Moreover given its small initial probability (as a story that was always intrinsically unlikely - it would be very surprising if true), and the evidence already seen, I cannot imagine how the hypothesis could be rendered credible by further examination of the texts. Of course that doesn't mean it's impossible (for example if systematic comparative studies using Yavelow's system were to yield genuinely exceptional results), but I don't currently believe that anything short of documentary proof of Ayers's involvement will take the case further.

Documentary proof, not hearsay.

It speaks volumes that the Dreamers have not commissioned such 'systematic comparative studies'.

359 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 3:08:00pm

re: #355 Jimmah

Oh yes - you can tell he regards it as his 'masterpiece'.

I know, it's kinda sad... and as Dante 41 said, you can just imagine theself editing he went through to not add Beck and his minions.
Notice too, that The 5,000 Year Leap is in the students hands... crazy stuff.

360 Dante41  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 3:09:17pm

re: #357 doubter4444

Ahhh, Fark. It figures they'd have it, and alter it, first.
They are brutal, funny but brutal.

Quite true. They love black comedy and gallows humor. You will probably acquire a ticket to Hell while perusing that thread, but it is frickin' worth it.

361 claire  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 4:17:58pm

re: #303 Mich-again

My rule of thumb for art is that if I could paint a reasonable facsimile, its not very impressive art.


Alber's whole thing was about color and perception. He did all these comparative studies where, for example, the center square in two paintings are an identical color, but when surrounded by other colors, you think you are seeing the centers as 2 different colors. Almost an optical illusion. Really interesting and well-known to art students who struggle with color.

362 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 4:41:18pm

Ala George Will, proof that Obama clearly was the author of the book:

As we all know by now, Obama is definitely a narcissist because he uses the words "I" and "me" in his speeches. Now, just look at the book. The title is "Dreams from MY Father!" Why does it have to be his father, and not all our fathers? Why does his auto-biography have to be about him? It should be about all of us.

Narcissist.

/

363 Barflytom  Wed, Oct 7, 2009 6:14:10pm

I dunno. Obama was much more closely tied to Ayers than just living in the same neighbourhood. It wasn't just some flirtation with loony left politics when he was a student either - he was in his thirties, serving on a board with Ayers etc. I'm suspicious of Cashill, who seems to peddle all sorts of conspiracy theories, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Does anyone here have a reason why, for example, the similar anecdotes and nautical references he refers to are invalid ? And leaving aside the question of who wrote what, I still find it astonishing that anyone who would give Ayers the time of day (if they knew his past) could be a credible candidate for president.

364 moriarity  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 1:43:58am

Ayers has been laughing his arse off at this Country all his life. Just look how he's prospered by his criminal deeds. It's only his detractor's who suffer public attacks led by the media.


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