Pawlenty: Another GOP Creationist on the Rise

Politics • Views: 4,014

Iowa Republicans have picked creationist Governor Tim Pawlenty to headline the “Leadership for Iowa” event in Des Moines November 7.

Note that Pawlenty isn’t content to simply believe in creationism himself; he wants to see it taught to everyone else’s children: Gov. Tim Pawlenty on Why He Supports Creationism.

MR. BROKAW: In the vast scientific community, do you think that Creationism has the same weight as evolution, and at a time in American education when we are in a crisis when it comes to science, that there ought to be parallel tracks for Creationism versus evolution in the teaching?

GOV. PAWLENTY: In the scientific community, it seems like intelligent design is dismissed — not entirely, there are a lot of scientists who would make the case that it is appropriate to be taught and appropriate to be demonstrated, but in terms of the curriculum in the schools in Minnesota, we’ve taken the approach that that’s a local decision. I know Senator Palin — or Governor Palin — has said intelligent design is something that she thinks should be taught along with evolution in the schools, and I think that’s appropriate. My personal view is that’s a local decision —

MR. BROKAW: Given equal weight.

GOV. PAWLENTY: — of the local school board.

MR. BROKAW: And you would recommend it be given equal weight?

GOV. PAWLENTY: We’ve said in Minnesota, in my view, this is a local decision. Intelligent design is something that, in my view, is plausible and credible and something that I personally believe in but, more importantly, from an educational and scientific standpoint, it should be decided by local school boards at the local school district level.

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390 comments
1 Flyers1974  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:24:03am

In preparation to run for POTUS in 2012, no doubt.

2 middy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:28:50am

As if you can excuse any hare-brained idea because it's "a decision made on the local level."

Would segregated schools be okay if it was a decision made "on the local level?"

3 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:29:02am

Excellent early AM Towercam with etherial clouds.

...


Down with both major political parties. Pffiibbittth.™

4 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:31:19am

"It's a decision that should be made on a local level" means "We'll have a lot more luck getting local partisans to eat this apart from the inside out so we're trying to move the court of decision into a playing field of our choosing."

5 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:33:27am

re: #3 Ojoe

Beautiful!!

(The pic and the post)

6 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:34:47am

Like I said last evening, Pawlenty ain't it. No So Into Him. Still waiting for somebody I like, Not holding my breath.

7 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:40:44am

re: #5 rightwingconspirator

Thank you.

8 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:43:08am

Funny, you can show evidence of evolution, and see it in action, and yet this fellow believes in creationism (which you most certainly can't see in action, or show evidence). Faith is nice, but I prefer fact.

Not sure what more I need to say about it.

9 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:44:15am

Pawlenty has no chance of being the candidate if he goes around championing Palin's brilliant views as common sense.

10 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:45:32am

Pawlenty may be the most electable of the religious right GOP candidates but that is not saying much. The only way he could win the general in 2012 is if some major national security or economic disaster overtakes the Obama administration. RR wingnuts know this, of course, which is why they literally pray for Obama to fail.

11 Right Brain  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:46:25am

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

I know the notion that somewhere, someone, sometime might actually have a different conclusion than the homogeneous Left is scary for them, and I feel their anxiety.

12 Liberally Conservative  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:47:27am

Why let trained and educated professionals make these decisions when you can instead leave them to local officials elected in a low-turnout election?

13 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:48:15am

re: #12 Liberally Conservative

Why let trained and educated professionals make these decisions when you can instead leave them to local officials elected in a low-turnout election?

Because they won.

/feelin' snippy.

14 Liberally Conservative  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:48:40am

re: #11 Right Brain

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

I know the notion that somewhere, someone, sometime might actually have a different conclusion than the homogeneous Left is scary for them, and I feel their anxiety.

And in NYC, you can teach science, and in rural Texas, you can teach religion. This is because teaching science everywhere is what the "homogenous Left" does.

15 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:50:52am

re: #11 Right Brain

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

I know the notion that somewhere, someone, sometime might actually have a different conclusion than the homogeneous Left is scary for them, and I feel their anxiety.

Local control does not mean locally disregarding the Constitution. Teaching animal husbandry is not a violation of Constitutional principle, teaching creationism is.

16 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:51:01am

Headline: People of America "Naturally Select" politicians that don't want to teach Creationism and ID.

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:55:06am

One thing that should be kept in mind about Pawlenty is his favorability rating within his own state:

Last month, for only the 6th time in 45 SurveyUSA polls, Pawlenty fell below the 50 percent mark at 48 percent. But in the latest poll, conducted of 600 Gopher State residents from March 20-22, the Governor’s approval rating now stands at 51 percent, with 46 percent disapproving.

He's stable, middle of the road, and has all the charisma of Al Gore.

18 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:55:52am

re: #16 abbyadams

The problem is that with only two parties, each corresponds to a fringe of either left or right, and the fringes present the general electorate with nutty candidates; in other words the natural selection of the primaries, conventions and the party faithful does indeed get you some politicians who do want to teach Creationism and ID.

We badly need a center party in this country, IMHO.

19 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:57:22am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. This is not going to go over well on the Coasts, where GOP needs to be much more inclusive and much less anti-science than these ID proponents are showing themselves to be. Pursuing this kind of agenda may work well in certain parts of the country, but it will result in a fracturing of the GOP and further regionalize the GOP influence overall.

The thing of this is, that we don't have religious tests in the country - rightfully so - and we don't allow the imposition of religion by the state (separation of church and state), but pursing an agenda that pushes ID or creationism into schools and science programs claiming to be an equivalent or alternative theory is nothing of the sort. It is a direct injection of religious views into a science classroom.

If you want to bring up ID or creationism in an ethics, religion, or comparative studies class, that's one thing, but it is not appropriate in a science classroom because it isn't based on science. It's based on faith. The science simply doesn't support contentions of ID or creationism.

20 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:58:47am

re: #17 Sharmuta

One thing that should be kept in mind about Pawlenty is his favorability rating within his own state:


He's stable, middle of the road, and has all the charisma of Al Gore.


And Gore came within a Supreme Court decision of being pres in 2000!

21 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 6:59:56am

re: #10 Shiplord Kirel

Pawlenty may be the most electable of the religious right GOP candidates but that is not saying much. The only way he could win the general in 2012 is if some major national security or economic disaster overtakes the Obama administration. RR wingnuts know this, of course, which is why they literally pray for Obama to fail.

Would you really want a man who couldn't take care of his state's infrastructure to be in control during a crisis?

22 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:01:32am

If this is the kind of genius they're looking to field, they might as well sit out 2012 and save the money. "You can't fix stupid"

23 SFGoth  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:01:52am

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to President Obama's inauguration of his 2nd term. It's a crisp January day in our nation's capital. Global warming assures us that the high will remain above 0...

24 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:02:03am

re: #18 Ojoe

I can't disagree, if for no other reason than I'm tired of ideologues and misinformation based "our side is right because I'm on it."

One of my contentions is that the system put into place to choose our representatives (with its modifications over the years) is not working for various reasons, not the least of which is that its foundations are over 200 years old. The problem is that it "worked" for the people who are in office and so there is no motivation for the system to be changed.

25 harrylook  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:02:18am

I answered the Republican Natn'l Committee's survey that I received in the mail, telling them to boot the creationists and other assorted extremists if they want my vote. What else can we do to bring the opposition I want to support back to sanity?

26 theheat  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:05:37am
My personal view is that’s a local decision

Okay, so it will be okay to skirt federal mandates and let each school decide? Neato. And when they're done with that, maybe each school can decide if they'll allow dark skinned students. Or gay students, Or students from other countries. You know, keep it all on a local level.

Again, one of the biggest copouts to come from the mouths of politicians - keep it local. Maybe this is supposed to sound like smaller government to them - letting the locals decide how anti-science, biased, and fundie they want to get between themselves?

Hey, Pawlenty: I'm not voting for anyone on the Fundie Lite® ticket, either. Nice try. Panderer.

27 researchok  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:06:22am

Pawlenty is no fool.

By appearing to be sympathetic to the Creationists, he's made himself a lot more attractive to a very large money pool- and I suspect he's not the only one with that in mind.

The moral cesspool gets deeper.

28 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:07:15am

The republicans are not smart enough to run on economics. They are too mired in birther-idiocy and pushing their personal religiosity.


Posted in the lower thread:
If Democrats knew that lowering tax rates would create jobs and bring in more money to the treasury, would they do it?
No way. Never. ... James Pethokoukis points out democrat economic/tax/deficit fantasy land:

1) “Most Democrats now acknowledge the central idea of supply-side economics: tax rates matter.” Have Democrats really conceded this point? Have they accepted the necessity of the Reagan supply-side tax cuts back in the 1980s? Doubtful. President Obama, for instance, has stated that he doesn’t think the high, unindexed-for-inflation tax rates of the 1970s were a disincentive to work, savings and investment. He concedes only that they may have “distorted” investment decisions by encouraging people to seek out tax-shelters. Not surprisingly, the Obama tax cuts were typically Keynesian, short-term and consumer demand focused. The job tax credit that the White House is considering would be more of the same.

(And I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve heard Democrats and liberal economists get wistful about the 1950s and its 90 percent top marginal tax rate. These also tend to be the same folks who credit the 1980s economic boom to falling oil prices, Paul Volcker’s inflation fighting, Jimmy Carter’s deregulation and typical cyclical rebound after a deep recession. In short, every possible explanation other than Reagan’s tax cuts.)

29 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:10:06am

NYC vs. other large central cities, black 4th gradersre: #11 Right Brain

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

I know the notion that somewhere, someone, sometime might actually have a different conclusion than the homogeneous Left is scary for them, and I feel their anxiety.

Mathematics NAEP results; Percent of students performing at or above "basic": All TUDA Districts:Charlotte75%New York City72%Boston71%Houston69%Austin68%San Diego65%Atlanta55%Los Angeles54%Chicago48%Cleveland45%District of Columbia45%

Houston82%Charlotte80%Austin78%Boston76%New York City74%San Diego64%Atlanta60%Chicago60%District of Columbia57%Los Angeles55%Cleveland53%
NYC vs. other large central cities, hispanic 4th graders
I couldn't find on this site a comparison of whites, and asian/pacific islanders, from NYC and other large urban districts. Overall results, in NYC, 93% of Asians, 91% of whites, also performing at or above basic. NYC results broken down by race
It would seem that NYC does a tolerable job of teaching math in the early grades, taking into account all factors. But it's not head and shoulders above Texas' large cities in that regard, which also stand toward the top of the rankings, and in at least one comparison, do better.

30 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:11:14am

It's doubtful that for most voters, the stance of candidates on creationism/ID is going to be a major factor in their decision. . .but it will be for some.

Is it really so hard to just declare; "I'd like to see science taught in the science classroom. When ID proponents can come up with some scientific evidence in favor of their their ideas, then and only then should it be taught in public schools alongside evolution".

31 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:11:25am

re: #27 researchok

Is it really a much larger money pool? I don't think it is. It may be a vocal group that is willing to spend to spread this message, but that doesn't mean that it's got the deep pockets that one could otherwise find among those who oppose teaching ID in science classrooms.

32 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:12:33am

re: #11 Right Brain

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

I know the notion that somewhere, someone, sometime might actually have a different conclusion than the homogeneous Left is scary for them, and I feel their anxiety.

This isn't about local skills. This is about making the definition of science a "local decision". Not really the same thing. Animal husbandry in NYC is the same as animal husbandry in Texas, regardless of the decision to teach it or not.

33 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:16:46am

re: #32 Locker

This isn't about local skills. This is about making the definition of science a "local decision". Not really the same thing. Animal husbandry in NYC is the same as animal husbandry in Texas, regardless of the decision to teach it or not.

Reminds me of a Tom Lehrer line:

His educational career began, interestingly enough, in agricultural
school, where he majored in animal husbandry until they caught
him at it one day
34 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:17:23am

re: #33 Kosh's Shadow

UPDING for Tom Lehrer reference!

35 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:17:59am

Both the Minnesota and Iowa state GOP platforms call for teaching the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution, so the Iowa GOP will feel like the comfortable neighbor Pawlenty needs. Being just to the North, it's no surprise Pawlenty would work Iowa as the early state to make inroads, as opposed to New Hampshire. He'll need to win, place or show in Iowa if he's going to have any momentum for other primaries. That the two states are neighbors of similar minds will work to his advantage. That he's as exciting as a tree will work against him.

36 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:21:00am

re: #21 Sharmuta

Would you really want a man who couldn't take care of his state's infrastructure to be in control during a crisis?

Actually, it wasn't really faulty maintenance that lead to the eventual collapse of that bridge. It was more of a design flaw along with overloading of the bridge.

On November 13, 2008, the NTSB released the findings of its investigation. The primary cause was the under-sized gusset plates, at 0.5 inches (13 mm) thick. Contributing to that design or construction error was the fact that 2 inches (51 mm) of concrete were added to the road surface over the years, increasing the dead load by 20%. Also contributing was the extraordinary weight of construction equipment and material resting on the bridge just above its weakest point at the time of the collapse. That load was estimated at 578,000 pounds (262,000 kg) consisting of sand, water, and vehicles. The NTSB determined that corrosion was not a significant factor, but that inspectors did not routinely check that safety features were functional.

37 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:21:36am

Sorry, I'm with Pawlenty on this one. Five times in the bit that was quoted here he says "LOCAL DECISION".

You can replace "Intelligent design" with religion, abortion, gay marriage, economics, raising cattle, fashion design, or anything else you want. Just because someone in office believes in something doesn't preclude them from being a good executive. Does anyone really care what the CEO of (insert some company here) cares about religion as long as he doesn't let it spill over into day-to-day operations?

I have two kids in MN schools right now and they're not learning about Intelligent design. We don't have anything on the books that I'm aware of. It hasn't come up at our school board meetings. I haven't seen Pawlenty suggest that our schools start teaching it. Last I checked, he doesn't create laws anyhow - the dems in the state house and senate do. He can suggest anything he wants but it isn't going to magically make it happen.

Fortunately for us, Pawlenty cares a lot more about keeping our taxes down and growing industry. We've managed to stay around 16th place in unemployment (~8%) and according to this Strib story we're the healthiest state. That doesn't surprise me as we have an excellent healthcare system among other things. Minnesota's GDP is nearly three times that of the US (2.0 vs 0.7).

To me, the ID stuff isn't a deal breaker as long as he isn't pushing it on anyone. Reagan was anti-abortion, yet he signed it into law when he was governor in CA. At the end of the day, he didn't bother spending political capital on this personal view. We've got bigger problems in this country than Pawlenty's opinion on ID. Oh, and for the record, he is on the Global Warming (Climate Change? - it's cold here today) bandwagon. So perhaps he will change his view on ID as he learns more about it.

38 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:23:46am

There are people who want the GOP to be more religious, more "the party of G-D". When will people understand that this is wholly inappropriate?
If the GOP insists on this, they can say goodbye to any majority.
and then this nation will have no opposition to far-left, big government progressive socialism.

39 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:24:24am

re: #11 Right Brain

The key here to Pawlenty is "local control" of what is taught to children; In rural Texas 4H-societies and animal husbandry would be routine instruction in public schools, in NYC that wouldn't make much sense, would it.

Are you aware that 4-H itself is a *gasp* federal program, run out of the USDA's Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES). They do have 4-H in NYC, btw, and the organization is currently putting great emphasis on its science, engineering, and technology programs.

40 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:24:28am

re: #35 Sharmuta

That he's as exciting as a tree will work against him.

REPEAT

Al Gore came within () that much of winning 2000

EVERY presidential aspirant will be "working" Iowa. Romney has already been there a few times.

41 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:26:17am

Intelligent Design: The beast that will not die.

42 Liberally Conservative  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:26:22am

re: #40 sattv4u2

That he's as exciting as a tree will work against him.

REPEAT

Al Gore came within () that much of winning 2000

EVERY presidential aspirant will be "working" Iowa. Romney has already been there a few times.

Romney was there for 2-3 years before the primary, he spent millions of his own money, but he still couldn't beat Huckabee and his so-con, squirrel-eating charm.

43 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:26:59am

re: #36 Bubblehead II

That bridge was in need of repair under a few administrations. I'm shocked it was allowed to remain in operation. There's plenty of blame to go around, but in the end- he was governor. He should have fixed it. I don't think the national press will keep this issue to themselves, do you?

44 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:27:10am

re: #37 Stormy

Sorry, I'm with Pawlenty on this one. Five times in the bit that was quoted here he says "LOCAL DECISION".

You can replace "Intelligent design" with religion, abortion, gay marriage, economics, raising cattle, fashion design, or anything else you want. Just because someone in office believes in something doesn't preclude them from being a good executive. Does anyone really care what the CEO of (insert some company here) cares about religion as long as he doesn't let it spill over into day-to-day operations?

I have two kids in MN schools right now and they're not learning about Intelligent design. We don't have anything on the books that I'm aware of. It hasn't come up at our school board meetings. I haven't seen Pawlenty suggest that our schools start teaching it. Last I checked, he doesn't create laws anyhow - the dems in the state house and senate do. He can suggest anything he wants but it isn't going to magically make it happen.

Fortunately for us, Pawlenty cares a lot more about keeping our taxes down and growing industry. We've managed to stay around 16th place in unemployment (~8%) and according to this Strib story we're the healthiest state. That doesn't surprise me as we have an excellent healthcare system among other things. Minnesota's GDP is nearly three times that of the US (2.0 vs 0.7).

To me, the ID stuff isn't a deal breaker as long as he isn't pushing it on anyone. Reagan was anti-abortion, yet he signed it into law when he was governor in CA. At the end of the day, he didn't bother spending political capital on this personal view. We've got bigger problems in this country than Pawlenty's opinion on ID. Oh, and for the record, he is on the Global Warming (Climate Change? - it's cold here today) bandwagon. So perhaps he will change his view on ID as he learns more about it.

Well, if the CEO of a biotech company doesn't believe in evolution, he'd have screwed up view of science, and the very science his company relies on.

And even if someone doesn't directly work in a field where science is as important, he would have a basic misunderstanding of the way science works if ID is taught as science.

And that very misunderstanding, and probably distrust of science and scientists, can manifest itself in the person believing all sorts of theories that can be harmful, like refusing to get his children vaccinated or taking useless "medicines".

45 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:27:53am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

Are you aware that 4-H itself is a *gasp* federal program, run out of the USDA's Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES). They do have 4-H in NYC, btw, and the organization is currently putting great emphasis on its science, engineering, and technology programs.

And they probably learn about evolution and animal breeding! Horrors!

46 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:28:47am

re: #42 Liberally Conservative

My point to Sharm was (as per her #35) EVERY candidate will harvets Iowa early (as well as NH)

47 sattv4u2  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:29:11am

BBL

48 Sloppy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:29:33am

As I was entering high school, the new superintendent scrapped such subjects as home economics and wood shop, reasoning that in our tiny rural community sewing, cooking and carpentry could be taught at home while the school would focus on academics. The school board and parents backed him unanimously, and four years later those of us who went on to college kicked ass when the grades came out. I remember him walking between the desks in study hall, saying, "Next semester you'll be having electives. Yours is trig, yours is solid geometry, yours is advanced placement physics . . ."

49 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:32:49am

re: #43 Sharmuta

That bridge was in need of repair under a few administrations. I'm shocked it was allowed to remain in operation. There's plenty of blame to go around, but in the end- he was governor. He should have fixed it. I don't think the national press will keep this issue to themselves, do you?

if BO can get elected, I think a guy that didn't fix a bridge could as well...jus sayin...flaws, missteps, experience and associations don't carry the water they used to...

50 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:33:04am

re: #37 Stormy

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to his own facts. The country needs a quality, universal science education curriculum. But yes, I understand what you're saying about this not being a deal breaker. Just like you go to war with the army you have, you go to the polls with the party you have.

51 Right Brain  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:36:29am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

Are you aware that 4-H itself is a *gasp* federal program, run out of the USDA's Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES). They do have 4-H in NYC, btw, and the organization is currently putting great emphasis on its science, engineering, and technology programs.

In the voice of Johnny Carson: "I did not know that."

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:37:15am

Of course evolution has weakneses, it is a theory created by human beings, who are imperfect. Creationism is "perfect", as it stems from God.

But for all its "perfection", it does not belong on any science curricum.

53 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:37:28am

re: My post "defending" Pawlenty...

Pawlenty would not be my choice for President... I'm just giving my perspective as a resident of the state he governs.

54 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:38:05am

re: #37 Stormy

Sorry, I'm with Pawlenty on this one. Five times in the bit that was quoted here he says "LOCAL DECISION".

You can replace "Intelligent design" with religion, abortion, gay marriage, economics, raising cattle, fashion design, or anything else you want. Just because someone in office believes in something doesn't preclude them from being a good executive. Does anyone really care what the CEO of (insert some company here) cares about religion as long as he doesn't let it spill over into day-to-day operations?

Are you aware that undermining the teaching of evolution is part of the Minnesota GOP party platform? And Pawlenty's publicly stated he supports it. That the Minnesota legislature is controlled by the other party is exactly why your children haven't learned about it in school.

If the Minnesota republicans had their way, they would turn every school district in Minnesota into the next Dover, Pennsylvania. They would let every science classroom in the state become a battle ground, as these bills would allow individual teachers to defy even the local school boards- and protect the teachers from consequences should they defy the elected officials in charge of the curriculum.

55 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:41:46am

Well, this is a sorry turn of events:
Gun-toting soccer mom is shot dead

Meleanie Hain, the pistol-carrying Lebanon mom who received national attention for taking a loaded gun to her daughter’s soccer game, was shot to death Wednesday night with her husband in an apparent murder-suicide, police said.

Hain, 31, and her husband, Scott, 33, were pronounced dead by Lebanon County Coroner Dr. Jeffrey Yocum shortly after 8:30 p.m. at their home at Second Avenue and East Grant Street, police said.
The couple’s three children were home at the time and were not injured, and are staying with relatives and friends, police said.

...Hain was thrust into the national spotlight when she took a gun, in plain view and holstered on her hip, to a soccer game Sept. 11, 2008, at Optimist Park in Lebanon.
Her permit to carry a gun was revoked by Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo on Sept. 20, 2008. DeLeo said Hain showed poor judgment in wearing her gun to the game.
Hain’s permit was reinstated by Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby on Oct. 14, 2008, but the judge asked her to conceal it when she goes to soccer games. Hain said she would continue to carry it openly under the Second Amendment.
Hain then filed a lawsuit against DeLeo for $1 million in U.S. Middle District Court seeking reimbursement of attorneys’ fees and costs, emotional distress and lost wages.

56 Egregious Philbin  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:42:17am

Pawlenty? You are dead to me.

Take your dogmatic fables and get them the hell out of our public schools. Its a wonder this country has any research and science anymore. No, we have to have a bunch of bible literalists and snake wavers trying to dictate what our kids learn.

Teach your fables in your church, keep them out of the schools.

57 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:42:40am

re: #43 Sharmuta


"I don't think the national press will keep this issue to themselves, do you?"

I don't think that it will be that big of an issue. If the MSM try to put the blame for the collapse on him directly (IE He didn't authorize repairs or shut the bridge down) he can always point out that at the time of the collapse, that repair work WAS underway to correct some of the structural deficiencies and again point to the NTBS report that the bridge was grossly overloaded with the construction equipment and materials at the time of its collapse.

58 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:42:55am

re: #52 ralphieboy

Of course evolution has weakneses, it is a theory created by human beings, who are imperfect. Creationism is "perfect", as it stems from God.

But for all its "perfection", it does not belong on any science curricum.

Really. Creationism is "perfect?" Perfect lust like the core texts which is used, both hebrew and greek writings, to prove these myths. Your whole foundation is based on writings that have been proven to be begged, borrowed and fictionalized, and that's what you base your "facts" on?

Come on Ralphieboy, any honest theologian, any where, will tell you the scriptures are problematic in the least, faulty at the most.

That's where your core belief comes from?

59 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:45:00am

"...if there are competing theories, and they are credible..."

There aren't any competing theories, but if there were, in order to deserve the title of "theory", they'd have to be credible. This shows that "theory" is not being used in its correct scientific sense (as usual).

End of story.

60 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:47:15am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

I think he meant to use a sarc tag.

61 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:47:46am

Fuck you, Sweden.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt on Thursday said he supports the Goldstone report, which claims wae crimes were committed by both Israel and Hamas during Operation Cast Lead in December 2008-January 2009.

SNIP

62 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:49:48am

re: #60 rwdflynavy

I think he meant to use a sarc tag.

Well, I don't have any other comments by Ralphieboy on this thread to gauge whether he was being sarcastic or not, so, I guess we will just have to wait for him to respond (or not).

I have no problem apologizing if he meant that differently than the way I took it.

63 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:50:37am

Someone give Pawlenty a big wedgie.

I wonder if he knows he's being used as a tool?

64 Big Steve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:50:57am

This argument of Pawlenty is completely disingenuous. I am a school board member. I don't care where you are school boards do NOT have free rein on this in either direction. School boards on their own cannot sail against the wind of their own state curriculum requirements. Further school boards have limited ability to punish. If say a district Board says "we require teaching intelligent design" in say the sixth grade. Do you fire teachers who don't agree? If you did, you better have a huge reserve in your district's budget because you will ultimately end up in the Supreme Court defending yourself. Pawlenty's answer is misdirection and he knows it. He is a absolute wuss on this answer.

65 james37211  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:51:40am

re: #2 middy

Of course not, but if the local school board votes to teach that a monkey god riding a bicycle created the earth with a pocket fisherman, they can, at the least, HAVE A VOTE ON IT! Me? I believe in evolution - and I believe it was one hum dinger of a god who dreamed it up. Shoot me.

66 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:51:54am

Some one mentioned yesterday (here on LGF), that the "age" of the boy in question in the Kevin Jennings situation was older than Fox has been reporting.

Anyone have a link to that information?

67 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:52:03am

re: #2 middy

As if you can excuse any hare-brained idea because it's "a decision made on the local level."

Would segregated schools be okay if it was a decision made "on the local level?"

"It should be decided on the local level" is EXACTLY the phrase used by these same theocrats when discussing abortion. It's easier for them to saturate smaller units of government - at the state, county or city level - with bodies and funding drawn from the entire country, and pick them off one at a time, rather than attempting to shove all of the nation's children's into their madrassas at once.

68 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:52:56am

OT, but
Peres lives on another planet:
Peres to Mitchell: We have full faith in Obama's policies

According to the president's office, at the start of the meeting, Peres said that Israel had full faith in the policies of US President Barack Obama, who he said was trying to advance peace in an extremely fair way by listening to both sides and trying to find a common denominator.


So which policies does he have "full faith" in? The ones that are the basis of pressuring Israel to stop building even in areas that anyone rational realizes will stay part of Israel, without pressuring the Palis to stop terrorism and recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state?

Good thing Netanyahu is running the country.

69 james37211  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:55:31am

forgot to add: ¨Petraeus in 12¨

70 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:55:58am

re: #37 Stormy

You might want to take a gander at this.

[Link: www.sunflower.com...]

71 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:57:09am

re: #54 Sharmuta

They would let every science classroom in the state become a battle ground, as these bills would allow individual teachers to defy even the local school boards- and protect the teachers from consequences should they defy the elected officials in charge of the curriculum.

I wonder if the ruling on Kitzmiller v Dover actually prevents this from happening. I'm reading Judge Jones' opinion again (link below), and on the final page, he states that the ID Policy (defined earlier in the document) violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution. I would think that what Pawlenty was proposing would be caught by the Kitzmiller ruling, but I'm not a lawyer. If there are any lawyers who would like to read the opinion and comment, here it is:

Opinion on Tammy Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District

72 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:57:23am

Q: How much of a hold to SoCons have on the GOP?

A: Pawlenty.

73 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:58:39am

re: #71 John Neverbend

I wonder if the ruling on Kitzmiller v Dover actually prevents this from happening. I'm reading Judge Jones' opinion again (link below), and on the final page, he states that the ID Policy (defined earlier in the document) violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution. I would think that what Pawlenty was proposing would be caught by the Kitzmiller ruling, but I'm not a lawyer. If there are any lawyers who would like to read the opinion and comment, here it is:

Opinion on Tammy Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District

Stop with that Legal mumbo jumbo! God's will be done! Oh - and we have to save the Constitution!

/ SoCon off.

74 Silvergirl  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 7:58:41am

re: #72 karmic_inquisitor

Q: How much of a hold to SoCons have on the GOP?

A: Pawlenty.

Is that original? Kudos for clever!

75 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:01:16am

re: #61 MandyManners

Fuck you, Sweden.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt on Thursday said he supports the Goldstone report, which claims wae crimes were committed by both Israel and Hamas during Operation Cast Lead in December 2008-January 2009.

SNIP

They're supporting the report to appease their own Muslims. Clearly, they hope the crocodile will eat them last.

76 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:02:26am

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

They're supporting the report to appease their own Muslims. Clearly, they hope the crocodile will eat them last.

If that's the way it's shaking out, then we can only hope.
/

77 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:03:17am

PHASE II. (Publicity and Opinion-making) The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our
ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we
seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders,
scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent
and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, Discovery President
Bruce Chapman brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political
leaders. This combination of scientific and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge
unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic. Other activities include production of a PBS documentary
on intelligent design and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing.
Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural
constituency, namely, Christians. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage
and equip believers with new scientific evidences that support the faith, as well as to popularize our ideas in the broader
culture.

78 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:03:23am

Speaking as someone under the age of 22 and non-American... was ID or creationism ever taught in American schools? I mean post 1800s type deal. Would teaching ID/Creationism be a return to something, or something totally new? If that makes sense.

79 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:04:14am

re: #61 MandyManners

Fuck you, Sweden.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt on Thursday said he supports the Goldstone report, which claims wae crimes were committed by both Israel and Hamas during Operation Cast Lead in December 2008-January 2009.

SNIP

Actually the Goldstone Report accuses Israel of committing deliberate war crimes, but gives Hamas every benefit of the doubt.

Elder of Ziyon has a complete Fisking of the Goldstone report on his blog. I think it's thread worthy.

80 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:04:24am

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

They're supporting the report to appease their own Muslims. Clearly, they hope the crocodile will eat them last.

yup, there is a pattern here...seems like the Swedes just don't like Jews, doesn't it?

81 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:05:54am

re: #78 McSpiff

Speaking as someone under the age of 22 and non-American... was ID or creationism ever taught in American schools? I mean post 1800s type deal. Would teaching ID/Creationism be a return to something, or something totally new? If that makes sense.

Have you ever heard of Dayton, Tennessee?

82 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:06:41am

re: #77 MandyManners

PHASE II. (Publicity and Opinion-making) The primary purpose of Phase II is to prepare the popular reception of our
ideas. The best and truest research can languish unread and unused unless it is properly publicized. For this reason we
seek to cultivate and convince influential individuals in print and broadcast media, as well as think tank leaders,
scientists and academics, congressional staff, talk show hosts, college and seminary presidents and faculty, future talent
and potential academic allies. Because of his long tenure in politics, journalism and public policy, Discovery President
Bruce Chapman brings to the project rare knowledge and acquaintance of key op-ed writers, journalists, and political
leaders. This combination of scientific and scholarly expertise and media and political connections makes the Wedge
unique, and also prevents it from being "merely academic. Other activities include production of a PBS documentary
on intelligent design and its implications, and popular op-ed publishing.
Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural
constituency, namely, Christians. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. We intend these to encourage
and equip believers with new scientific evidences that support the faith, as well as to popularize our ideas in the broader
culture.

Bruce Chapman should be made to perform your 'rope trick' with the Wedge shoved up his place where the sun don't shine.

83 badger1970  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:06:48am

But is he a fiscal conservative? I couldn't care less if he believed in "Chariots of the gods" as a seeding of the planet as long as he doesn't take what is rightfully mine and give it to some third-world wanna-be thugs.

84 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:07:09am

re: #81 MandyManners

Honestly, I've heard the term "Scopes Monkey Trial" but beyond that, no I haven't. Thanks for the link tho.

85 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:07:12am

First post on the issue of creationism/ID.

Our educational systems (in Canada and the USA) are based (along with some other givens - universality to name one), as I see it on Logic (Aristotelian), and the Scientific Method and the separation of church and State.

Science is the pursuit fact base knowledge, beginning generally with a theory and ending with a scientific proof that may be recreated (no play on words intended!) by anyone anywhere.

Religious faith and its derivatives (creationism and ID) is not susceptible to fact based inquiry pursuant to a proposed fact oriented hypothesis.

Faith by definition defies logic. Logic and the scientific method cannot incorporate faith. They are mutually exclusive.

As the kids say, "good luck with this one..."

86 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:07:23am

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

They're supporting the report to appease their own Muslims. Clearly, they hope the crocodile will eat them last.

Did Bildt say the report criticizes the Jordyptians or did the reporter?

87 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:07:32am

re: #83 badger1970

But is he a fiscal conservative? I couldn't care less if he believed in "Chariots of the gods" as a seeding of the planet as long as he doesn't take what is rightfully mine and give it to some third-world wanna-be thugs.

Yes, he is a fiscal conservative.

88 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:07:47am

re: #79 Alouette

Actually the Goldstone Report accuses Israel of committing deliberate war crimes, but gives Hamas every benefit of the doubt.

Elder of Ziyon has a complete Fisking of the Goldstone report on his blog. I think it's thread worthy.

Goldstone puts sand in my shorts.

89 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:08:01am

re: #71 John Neverbend

I wonder if the ruling on Kitzmiller v Dover actually prevents this from happening. I'm reading Judge Jones' opinion again (link below), and on the final page, he states that the ID Policy (defined earlier in the document) violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution. I would think that what Pawlenty was proposing would be caught by the Kitzmiller ruling, but I'm not a lawyer. If there are any lawyers who would like to read the opinion and comment, here it is:

Opinion on Tammy Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District

I believe Judge Jones' decision only affected Pennsylvania. ID hasn't been taken to the national level yet. The Discovery Institute might get their wish if the law in Louisiana is challenged- the law that most other states have been mimicking for their ID legislation.

90 badger1970  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:08:32am

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Thanks for the info.

91 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:08:40am

re: #86 MandyManners

Did Bildt say the report criticizes the Jordyptians or did the reporter?

The reporter said it.

92 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:09:06am

re: #83 badger1970

But is he a fiscal conservative? I couldn't care less if he believed in "Chariots of the gods" as a seeding of the planet as long as he doesn't take what is rightfully mine and give it to some third-world wanna-be thugs.

You might want to read this. I quoted Phase 2 in my No. 77.

93 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:10:13am

Speaking for myself native born Californian-I was taught creationism at Sunday school at church. I was taught evolution in public school. So I learned early to learn/tolerate/recognize differing views. Seems to me that's a worthwhile coping skill to develop early in life. But then that was the far less shrill blogged up media crazy 1960's. All the shrill stuff was about Vietnam and Nixon and hippies.

94 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:11:47am

re: #85 Colin Nelson

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1.

95 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:12:01am

re: #77 MandyManners

Interesting that they have a "Five Year Plan".
The Soviets used to issue 5 Year Plans too, which were never fulfilled.

96 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:12:10am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Bruce Chapman should be made to perform your 'rope trick' with the Wedge shoved up his place where the sun don't shine.

I don't know if I'd go that far...

97 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:13:30am

re: #95 Spare O'Lake

Interesting that they have a "Five Year Plan".
The Soviets used to issue 5 Year Plans too, which were never fulfilled.

Totalitarianism of all shades scares me.

98 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:13:34am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

There is a large, well funded propaganda machine behind the ID movement. The internet is a perfect vehicle for distributing such material to the widest possible audience.

99 J.S.  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:14:05am

re: #84 McSpiff

If you scroll down, you'll find other links in that Wiki article. The latest attempt to have creationism taught in school was in 2005 -- there was a court challenge, once again. That was the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District -- and once more creationism was ruled out. But that doesn't stop the Creationist movement from continuously launching challenges to the teaching of evolution in science classrooms. (The latest attempts are occuring in the state of Texas -- and Texas is a huge problem, since the state of Texas supplies text books to a number of other states in the United States.)

100 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:14:17am

re: #97 MandyManners

Totalitarianism of all shades scares me.

Like me with orange.

101 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:14:28am

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

The reporter said it.

Idiot.

102 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:14:45am

re: #97 MandyManners

Totalitarianism of all shades scares me.

So what makes a shade totalitarian? Has it subjugated all of the drapes and blinds in the house?/

103 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:15:09am

re: #89 Sharmuta

I believe Judge Jones' decision only affected Pennsylvania. ID hasn't been taken to the national level yet. The Discovery Institute might get their wish if the law in Louisiana is challenged- the law that most other states have been mimicking for their ID legislation.

How many states?

104 peterb  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:15:12am

E pur, si muove.

105 debutaunt  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:15:28am

re: #33 Kosh's Shadow

hahahahaahhahahhaaa

106 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:15:52am

re: #102 Creeping Eruption

So what makes a shade totalitarian? Has it subjugated all of the drapes and blinds in the house?/

I think it's more directed at lampshades. I mean, Tiffany and Stickley are nice enough, in their place, but a Stalinist shade is just awful, except in a prison cell.

107 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:16:55am

re: #101 MandyManners

Idiot.

It does criticize both sides and that's the problem. A fair report would have mostly slammed Hamas for being a terrorist organization that longs to murder Jewish civilians and hides behind Muslim civilians.

108 Martinsmithy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:17:12am

I had hope for Pawlenty at one point, because Republicans from Minnesota tend not to be numbskulls. But Michelle Bachmann and now Pawlenty are changing the mold.

109 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:17:40am

re: #85 Colin Nelson

[snip]

Faith by definition defies logic. Logic and the scientific method cannot incorporate faith. They are mutually exclusive.

[snip]

I am am always suspect of the critical thinking skills of someone who looks to the truth that science is, and at the same time engage themselves in mystical thinking.

In my opinion, those two ways of thinking mutually cancel each other out.

110 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:18:21am

re: #106 Guanxi88

I think it's more directed at lampshades. I mean, Tiffany and Stickley are nice enough, in their place, but a Stalinist shade is just awful, except in a prison cell.

If you are talking about those kinds of shades, I suggest we bring in Ed Gein. I think Stalin had him do all of the palaces./

111 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:18:47am

re: #84 McSpiff

Honestly, I've heard the term "Scopes Monkey Trial" but beyond that, no I haven't. Thanks for the link tho.

You're welcome.

I.F. Stone's biography of Darrow is great. I don't agree with a lot of Darrow's religious and political beliefs but, the book is a good read.

112 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:19:17am

re: #100 Guanxi88

Like me with orange.

Rhyme it.

113 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:19:20am

OT - Richard Dreyfuss equates Obama with Bush:

First of all, if Bush’s popularity points were two points off, Obama would never have been elected. But [Bush] had crossed the line. He’d gotten so blatantly and brazenly disgusting that it was okay to vote for this black guy. And then, what does he do, he acts pretty much like Bush. You know? Signs the same letters, continues the same ban on the torture photographs. Power never turns power down, ever, unless institutionally demanded.

More here: [Link: www.avclub.com...]

114 Silvergirl  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:19:28am

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

I am am always suspect of the critical thinking skills of someone who looks to the truth that science is, and at the same time engage themselves in mystical thinking.

In my opinion, those two ways of thinking mutually cancel each other out.

Sometimes it takes mystical thinking to get out of bed in the morning and plant your feet on the floor.

115 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:19:46am

re: #102 Creeping Eruption

So what makes a shade totalitarian? Has it subjugated all of the drapes and blinds in the house?/

Sofa, so good.

116 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:00am

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

It does criticize both sides and that's the problem. A fair report would have mostly slammed Hamas for being a terrorist organization that longs to murder Jewish civilians and hides behind Muslim civilians.

I thought it was a report about activity during a certain time frame. A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?

117 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:08am

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

Some one mentioned yesterday (here on LGF), that the "age" of the boy in question in the Kevin Jennings situation was older than Fox has been reporting.

Anyone have a link to that information?

Good morning Walter. Here's what I
found.

118 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:30am

re: #21 Sharmuta

Would you really want a man who couldn't take care of his state's infrastructure to be in control during a crisis?

Wow. There's a low blow. I mean every governor should know

The primary cause was the under-sized gusset plates, at 0.5 inches (13 mm) thick. (November 13, 2008 NTSB)

We have MnDOT (MN Dept of Transportation) that is supposed to have experts who manage things like bridges. And if you believe that MnDOT is a bunch of Pawlenty appointed convservatives, you're out of your mind. I know some folks in MnDOT and they're a proud union cardholders who have their heels dug in deep. This Roads and Bridges story says, "Mn/DOT partly responsible for I-35W bridge collapse, report finds". Seriously - you're going to blame the Governor for the bridge collapse? MnDOT gets their billions every year... that those "experts" at MnDOT didn't use it to fix this particular bridge is not his fault.

How about we blame The San Francisco-based consultant, URS Inc. that originally recommended reinforcing 52 truss members most susceptible to cracking only to later say inspecting the beams with ultrasonic equipment and repairing when the cracks reached a certain size would be fine? (story here)

At the end of the day it was a terrible accident. And I certainly wouldn't pin it on any one person or agency. We can't gold-plate every bridge and have them in perfect condition. There were a lot of people involved in the decisions including outside firms. At the end of the day there was a risk/reward decision made (remember this bridge was on a timeline to be replaced already). Should we blame a doctor doing everything they know when a patient dies if we later find out their was a way that could have extended their life by a couple years? Should every bridge be replaced every five years to be safe? Of course not. We do the best as humans with the data we have. To my knowledge there has been no evidence that anyone did any malicious.

119 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:33am

re: #103 MandyManners

How many states?

Around a dozen, give or take a few. They've been covered at LGF. Here's one article:

More Stealth Creationist Bills in Five More States, As the DI Mask Slips in Virginia

There's many more- from the South, to Iowa, to New Mexico.

120 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:34am

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

It does criticize both sides and that's the problem. A fair report would have mostly slammed Hamas for being a terrorist organization that longs to murder Jewish civilians and hides behind Muslim civilians.

From what I've read, the criticism of the Jordyptians is miniscule.

121 Silvergirl  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:20:49am

re: #115 MandyManners

Sofa, so good.

I love a good pun thread so this timing is horrible! Off to work. have a lovely day, one and all!

122 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:21:31am

re: #89 Sharmuta

I believe Judge Jones' decision only affected Pennsylvania. ID hasn't been taken to the national level yet. The Discovery Institute might get their wish if the law in Louisiana is challenged- the law that most other states have been mimicking for their ID legislation.

Yes, the ruling affected Pennsylvania. However, Judge Jones went on to rule that ID was not science and "has utterly no place in a science curriculum." This was strongly contested by various members of the Discovery Insitute, I assume because it makes it much harder now for any other US school district to attempt to insert ID into a science curriculum.

123 J.S.  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:21:49am

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

CNN reported on that a while back..

124 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:22:02am

re: #112 MandyManners

Rhyme it.

If I could do that, I wouldn't be here; I'd be busy counting royalties from my children's book "Orange Kippers and Jam," and finishing my master treatise explaining how I found that there are actually hundreds of English words that rhyme with orange.

125 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:22:04am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

Mr. Holland's Opus.

[sorry, had to say it.]

126 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:22:31am

re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - Richard Dreyfuss equates Obama with Bush:


More here: [Link: www.avclub.com...]

He was best when building that mountain out of food.

127 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:22:56am

re: #112 MandyManners

Rhyme it.

Also, that's yet another reason why I dislike that color so.

128 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:23:08am

re: #115 MandyManners

Sofa, so good.

Can't get my futon this pun thread just yet.

129 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:23:44am

re: #116 Locker

I thought it was a report about activity during a certain time frame. A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?

The war waged by Hamas goes WAAAY back.

Gosh, a fucking apologist for Hamas.

130 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:23:53am

re: #128 Mad Al-Jaffee

Can't get my futon this pun thread just yet.

I'm not sure you otto, man.

131 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:24:37am

re: #128 Mad Al-Jaffee

Can't get my futon this pun thread just yet.

Oh quit couching your thoughts in such ambiguous terms. Whats your point?

132 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:24:49am

re: #121 Silvergirl

I love a good pun thread so this timing is horrible! Off to work. have a lovely day, one and all!

Your timing is not divan.

133 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:24:58am

re: #117 avanti

Good morning Walter. Here's what I
found.

Thanks... but, no prize. That doesn't clear anything up for me. A drivers license has been that heavily redacted shows me nothing. It has a birthdate on it and the sex, male. That could be anyone, anyplace, anytime...

Or am I missing something?

134 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:04am

re: #131 Creeping Eruption

Oh quit couching your thoughts in such ambiguous terms. Whats your point?

I think we should table this argument.

135 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:07am

re: #116 Locker

I thought it was a report about activity during a certain time frame. A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?

Yes, it would. But it would also not call Israeli actions "war crimes". It would look at the footage the Israelis posted that showed Hamas violating the laws of war and how the Israelis reacted. Goldstone did not do this, instead he gave credence to prejured Pali "witnesses".

136 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:08am

re: #130 MrSilverDragon

I'm not sure you otto, man.

in bed

137 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:28am

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

It does criticize both sides and that's the problem. A fair report would have mostly slammed Hamas for being a terrorist organization that longs to murder Jewish civilians and hides behind Muslim civilians.

Or really, would point out that Israel took great pains not to attack civilians (despite all the effort Hamas went through to hide behind them), while Hamas deliberately targeted civilians.

There might be some cases where Israel made mistakes or could have done better, but, as a British general said, Israel made the greatest effort seen to prevent civilian casualties, and a fair report would have said something similar, while pointing out that attacking civilians, and using civilians and civilian structures to hide in are war crimes.

138 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:41am

re: #129 MandyManners

The war waged by Hamas goes WAAAY back.

Gosh, a fucking apologist for Hamas.

Do you EVER stop labeling people with your negative bullshit just because they ask a question? Why are you so quick to slap your pre-packaged cookie cutter label on anything you don't like so you can use a blanket dismissal rather than actually engage about an idea?

139 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:25:43am

re: #134 rwdflynavy

I think we should table this argument.

Thats up to the Chair.

140 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:26:23am

re: #128 Mad Al-Jaffee

Can't get my futon this pun thread just yet.

You Lazyboy!

141 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:26:30am

BB in a half hour, need to get some supplies in at the store before the "big" snowstorm.

142 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:26:33am

re: #116 Locker

I thought it was a report about activity during a certain time frame. A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?

So you're saying a report on Hiroshima and Nagasaki shouldn't mention Pearl Harbor, the invasion of the Philippines, etc.?

143 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:26:57am

re: #140 MandyManners

You Lazyboy!

You're off your rocker!

144 J.S.  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:27:17am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Yes, you're missing something...do a search for Jennings, CNN...

145 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:27:44am

re: #122 John Neverbend

Yes, the ruling affected Pennsylvania. However, Judge Jones went on to rule that ID was not science and "has utterly no place in a science curriculum." This was strongly contested by various members of the Discovery Insitute, I assume because it makes it much harder now for any other US school district to attempt to insert ID into a science curriculum.

I believe the Dover decision will be looked at by other courts as legal precedent. It's certainly a compelling decision, and the entire tale of the trial is fascinating too.

146 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:27:48am

re: #138 Locker

Do you EVER stop labeling people with your negative bullshit just because they ask a question? Why are you so quick to slap your pre-packaged cookie cutter label on anything you don't like so you can use a blanket dismissal rather than actually engage about an idea?

I think most Lizards get my point rather easily.

147 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:28:37am

re: #146 MandyManners

I think most Lizards get my point rather easily.

That's right, they do. You're direct, accurate and smart. That's why we love you, Mandy.

148 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:28:47am

re: #146 MandyManners

I think most Lizards get my point rather easily.

Labeling someone a terrorist apologist is an extraordinaire claim. Those generally require extraordinaire evidence, or in this case, any evidence at all.

149 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:28:54am

re: #146 MandyManners

I think most Lizards get my point rather easily.

Yea I get your point to.. you only like to broadcast, not discuss. Whenever you read or hear anything you don't like you call someone a name and dismiss them. It's fairly clear, you are correct.

150 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:29:01am

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

It does criticize both sides and that's the problem. A fair report would have mostly slammed Hamas for being a terrorist organization that longs to murder Jewish civilians and hides behind Muslim civilians.

Actually it does not criticize both sides equally. All the criticism is directed at Israel and Hamas pretty much gets a free pass.

151 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:29:23am

re: #140 MandyManners

You Lazyboy!

You could have couched that better.

152 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:30:03am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Thanks... but, no prize. That doesn't clear anything up for me. A drivers license has been that heavily redacted shows me nothing. It has a birthdate on it and the sex, male. That could be anyone, anyplace, anytime...

Or am I missing something?

I just provided a link to a usually reliable source, but I agree it's just lead to more research about accuracy. In matters little, even if factual, some on the right will still oppose him, he is gay after all.

153 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:30:29am

More socialist indoctrination of children...
White House Hosts Astronomy Night On South Lawn (PHOTOS)

Panic!

154 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:31:15am

re: #144 J.S.

Yes, you're missing something...do a search for Jennings, CNN...

Found it, got it, thanks.

155 J.S.  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:31:36am

Here's the CNN link to the Jennings story...

156 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:31:58am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

More socialist indoctrination of children...
White House Hosts Astronomy Night On South Lawn (PHOTOS)

Panic!


[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

157 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:32:03am

re: #150 Alouette

Actually it does not criticize both sides equally. All the criticism is directed at Israel and Hamas pretty much gets a free pass.

Never said the criticism was equal. Israel does get the brunt of it and that is both unfair and undeserved. Then the hard left tries to use that to have Israelis arrested for "war crimes". Again as always I say on this issue:

Hamas Delenda Est.

158 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:32:38am

re: #115 MandyManners

Sofa, so good.

I prefer to recliner.

159 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:33:19am

re: #156 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

That was a scary vid. The teacher who got those kids to do that routine ought to fired.

160 J.S.  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:33:23am

re: #155 J.S.

and the critical paragraph, for those who won't or can't click on the CNN link:

Critics contend that Brewster was 15 at the time of the incident. CNN has obtained a copy of Brewster's driver's license, which verifies he was 16 at the time, not 15. That means if there had been sex, he was at the legal age of consent in Massachusetts.

161 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:33:32am

re: #155 J.S.

Here's the CNN link to the Jennings story...

Thanks:

"Now that onetime student is speaking out for the first time and telling CNN he did not have sex with that man at all.

In a statement obtained by CNN the former student, who wanted to be called Brewster, writes: "Since I was of legal consent at the time, the fifteen minute conversation I had with Mr. Jennings twenty-one years ago is of nobody's concern but his and mine. However, since the Republican noise machine is so concerned about my 'well-being' and that of America's students, they'll be relieved to know that I was not 'inducted' into homosexuality, assaulted, raped, or sold into sexual slavery."

162 acacia  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:33:46am

I don't see a problem with this one. I truly believe that loccal boards should have more control of the education curriculum. That was the fundamental basis of public education. Only recently have we had political trends toward making education a national rather than local concern. I agree though that a local board could not adopt in effect a religious curriculum as that would be unconstitutional. They certainly are within their rights though to have in the curriculum an explanation that some scientists believe in intelligent design and that this is a religious issue for the children and their family to determine pursuant to their own beliefs.

163 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:33:55am

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

Never said the criticism was equal. Israel does get the brunt of it and that is both unfair and undeserved. Then the hard left tries to use that to have Israelis arrested for "war crimes". Again as always I say on this issue:

Hamas Delenda Est.

Over the past few days, I've posted a few links to the renewed drive to have Israeli officials arrested in Europe following the release of the Goldstone bullshit.

164 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:34:10am

re: #156 Cannadian Club Akbar

Outrage! Insanity! Hysteria!

165 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:35:00am

re: #138 Locker

Just what is the idea about which you wish to engage?

166 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:35:05am

re: #163 MandyManners

Over the past few days, I've posted a few links to the renewed drive to have Israeli officials arrested in Europe following the release of the Goldstone bullshit.

That I hadn't seen. Could you repost a few of them?

167 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:35:29am

re: #162 acacia

I don't see a problem with this one. I truly believe that loccal boards should have more control of the education curriculum. That was the fundamental basis of public education. Only recently have we had political trends toward making education a national rather than local concern. I agree though that a local board could not adopt in effect a religious curriculum as that would be unconstitutional. They certainly are within their rights though to have in the curriculum an explanation that some scientists believe in intelligent design and that this is a religious issue for the children and their family to determine pursuant to their own beliefs.

You might want to read this.

[Link: www.sunflower.com...]

168 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:35:53am

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

That I hadn't seen. Could you repost a few of them?

Oh, goodness. Hold on, please.

169 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:36:02am

LGF traffic can crash anyone's server! Jerusalem post links are dead due to too much traffic if I'm receiving the correct error codes from my Firefox... Dand I want to look over that report on Hamas and Israel for myself. You all got me ver curious!

170 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:36:07am

re: #156 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Yes, this sort of thing is just getting creepy. Why can't Obama's friends in the education profession content themselves with just hanging his portrait on the classroom wall? Like some of them refused to do with President Satan Incarnate in the previous administration?

171 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:36:21am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

More socialist indoctrination of children...
White House Hosts Astronomy Night On South Lawn (PHOTOS)

Panic!

Oh dear, encouraging worshipping of stars and planets. Tut tut.

172 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:37:06am

re: #171 John Neverbend

Godless paganism!

173 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:37:16am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

174 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:37:37am

re: #21 Sharmuta

You're blaming the I35 bridge collapse on Pawlenty?

175 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:38:40am

re: #156 Cannadian Club Akbar

Watch NASA bomb the moon for science! Any images out yet?

176 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:38:45am

It is interesting that the more we discover, the more questions there are to be answered. We can't begin to comprehend how vast the universe is. There is still a part of me that wonders if we are just bits of organic matter inside of somebody's petri dish. But until we have any evidence, I don't believe that Intelligent Design/Creationism should be taught as science in schools.

177 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:39:05am

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

Never said the criticism was equal. Israel does get the brunt of it and that is both unfair and undeserved. Then the hard left tries to use that to have Israelis arrested for "war crimes". Again as always I say on this issue:

Hamas Delenda Est.

Fact: Hamas hid behind civilians and used them as human shields.
Fact: Israel took UNPRECEDENTED steps to warn off the civilians before attacking Hamas, including dropping leaflets and making thousands of cell phone calls.
Fact: Some civilians were indeed unintentionally killed.
Report: Israel attacked on civilians and is guilty of war crimes.

*spit*

178 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:39:12am

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Outrage! Insanity! Hysteria!

get 'em early...maybe teach them a little tune about the merits of cap and trade

179 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:39:18am

re: #175 Rightwingconspirator

Watch NASA bomb the moon for science! Any images out yet?

Tomorrow morning.

180 acacia  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:39:50am

re: #167 MandyManners

That would be a religous curriculum alright. That is way over the line.

181 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:40:20am

re: #171 John Neverbend

Oh dear, encouraging worshipping of stars and planets. Tut tut.

Yes, but the students need to be given the Biblical, earth centered solar system story too. It's obvious that the sun moves in the sky, I see it do that everyday. /

182 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:40:32am

re: #172 Killgore Trout

Godless paganism!

In fact, I was making a Talmudic reference. The "worshippers of stars and planets" or "stars and signs of the zodiac" are a group known by the acronym of "akum", occurring quite frequently in Talmudic discussion.

183 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:41:03am

Alouette's link about Goldstone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

184 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:41:50am

MJ's link about Goldstone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

185 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:42:40am

re: #176 Stormy

It is interesting that the more we discover, the more questions there are to be answered. We can't begin to comprehend how vast the universe is. There is still a part of me that wonders if we are just bits of organic matter inside of somebody's petri dish. But until we have any evidence, I don't believe that Intelligent Design/Creationism should be taught as science in schools.

That's what gets me, if you believe in a God, how much more marvelous are his works than the simple Bible magic tricks described by those that knew no better.

186 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:43:35am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

187 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:44:11am

re: #176 Stormy

It is interesting that the more we discover, the more questions there are to be answered. We can't begin to comprehend how vast the universe is. There is still a part of me that wonders if we are just bits of organic matter inside of somebody's petri dish. But until we have any evidence, I don't believe that Intelligent Design/Creationism should be taught as science in schools.

Faith does not require evidence.

188 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:45:37am

re: #177 Spare O'Lake

Fact: Hamas hid behind civilians and used them as human shields.
Fact: Israel took UNPRECEDENTED steps to warn off the civilians before attacking Hamas, including dropping leaflets and making thousands of cell phone calls.
Fact: Some civilians were indeed unintentionally killed.
Report: Israel attacked on civilians and is guilty of war crimes.

*spit*

And the attacks on Jewish civilians before Israel stepped up are irrelevant to Goldstone and Locker.

189 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:46:03am

re: #167 MandyManners

This is what, the third time you posted this? I did take a look. It doesn't answer much. Not only does it show that their plan has failed to meet most of their hopes/expectations (if I'm reading the timeline right), it is not all that different from any group trying to get their point into the mainstream. Not only that, but

Speaking in October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said,

"the wedge metaphor has outlived its usefulness. Indeed, with ID critics like Barbara Forrest and Paul Gross writing books like Evolution and the Wedge of Intelligent Design: The Trojan Horse Strategy, the wedge metaphor has even become a liability. To be sure, our critics will attempt to keep throwing the wedge metaphor (and especially the notorious wedge document) in our face. But the wedge needs to be seen as a propaedeutic — as an anticipation of and preparation for a positive, design-theoretic research program that invigorates science and renews culture."

(citation)

This is not a defense of them, nor do I agree with them, but your link just kind of makes me shrug my shoulders.

190 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:46:40am

re: #180 acacia

That would be a religous curriculum alright. That is way over the line.

It wouldn't stop at the schools. Read up on Dominionism.

191 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:47:22am

re: #189 Stormy

This is what, the third time you posted this? I did take a look. It doesn't answer much. Not only does it show that their plan has failed to meet most of their hopes/expectations (if I'm reading the timeline right), it is not all that different from any group trying to get their point into the mainstream. Not only that, but

Speaking in October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said,


(citation)

This is not a defense of them, nor do I agree with them, but your link just kind of makes me shrug my shoulders.

So?

192 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:47:52am

re: #191 MandyManners

So?

Exactly.

193 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:49:02am

re: #188 MandyManners

Can I see a link to where Locker said that please?

194 Stormy  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:49:11am

re: #115 MandyManners

Sofa, so good.

Sofa, so good.

196 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:49:51am

re: #187 MandyManners

Faith does not require evidence.

True, it requires either ignoring it, or integrating it to your beliefs. i.e. you either except a literal Genesis and reject the facts, or except the fact that we now know more about how a God might have worked than those passing stories around the camp fire 3000 years ago.

197 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:51:12am

re: #194 Stormy

Sofa, so good.

Sofa King Awesome!

198 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:51:15am

re: #193 McSpiff

See Locker 116

199 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:51:55am

re: #196 avanti

True, it requires either ignoring it, or integrating it to your beliefs. i.e. you either except a literal Genesis and reject the facts, or except the fact that we now know more about how a God might have worked than those passing stories around the camp fire 3000 years ago.

Well, some Kabbalists have taken Genesis and determined the universe is around 15 billion years old, and have Creation story based not on the literal meaning, but other interpretations, that sounds a lot like the scientific theories.

200 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:52:08am

re: #192 Stormy

The problem is that in undermining science education in this country, we're hurting future generations of Americans remaining competitive in the global economy. Science, technology, medicine- these are all areas where America is starting to lose it's edge. If we continue to undermine our science education today, who will be there to fill the science jobs of tomorrow?

201 Achilles Tang  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:52:52am

re: #61 MandyManners

Fuck you, Sweden.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt on Thursday said he supports the Goldstone report, which claims wae crimes were committed by both Israel and Hamas during Operation Cast Lead in December 2008-January 2009.

SNIP

I have relatives in Sweden. I don't know their position on this, though I suspect it is not in favor, but I find it all terribly disappointing and embarrassing. My apologies for what that is worth..

202 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:53:09am

re: #12 Liberally Conservative

Why let trained and educated professionals make these decisions when you can instead leave them to local officials elected in a low-turnout election?

Driving by and not sure if this point has already been made, apologies if it has--

This has been the strategy of the religious right for a long time. Since they've been ineffective at implementing the changes they'd like to see from a top-down level, years ago they deliberately turned to a bottom-up strategy-- take over local issues, local school boards, and affect change in local communities.

This is a broader strategy than just creationism and education. They also do it for abortion and the war on reproductive freedom -- introducing legislation at the local and state levels in hopes not merely of affecting change on the local level, but of it going to SCOTUS. They do it for other issues involving sexuality as well --- applying local obscenity statutes, etc. And of course other attempts to erase the wall of separation between church and state: prayer in schools, posting the ten commandments in courthouses, and so on.

There are always two goals for them: the local one of setting up their own little theocracy, but also the broader one, of initiating the changes they'd like to see at a national level.

This strategy in all its guises always sounds more appealing to Americans, who think something like "why shouldn't the local community/school board/whatever set their own standards" -- but these are targeted, highly organised and seeded 'grass roots' efforts to take over an issue on the local level without drawing the attention nationally and triggering national opposition.

203 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:54:05am

once the courts are stacked with IDers and Creationists, it's all over and we will become some sort of neotheocracyre: #195 Killgore Trout

REPORT: ‘We Will Overthrow The Government’ — Calls For Violence Repeatedly Stoked By Conservative Voices

Newsmax?...Jim and his 200 warriors?...c'mon, you can do better

204 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:55:05am

re: #193 McSpiff

Can I see a link to where Locker said that please?

No. 116.

205 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:55:18am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton
For a site named ' media matters', it appears the only thing that matters to them is their obsession with the conservative/Republican point of view and how to whine about it. Scanning the headlines, I can't see one left-leaning or democrat headline that ' matters ' enough to them at all. Lots of dripping envy there, though.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

206 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:56:05am

re: #201 Naso Tang

I have relatives in Sweden. I don't know their position on this, though I suspect it is not in favor, but I find it all terribly disappointing and embarrassing. My apologies for what that is worth..

IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT!

207 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:57:15am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

REPORT: ‘We Will Overthrow The Government’ — Calls For Violence Repeatedly Stoked By Conservative Voices

That's certainly discomfiting to hear. But, I'll start to worry in earnest when these people do one-tenth as much damage as the police-stoning, window-smashing Vanguards of the Masses do at each & every G8 summit.

208 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:57:23am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Terrific. There was a video, brought to you by "patriots" on YouTube yesterday (apparently now taken down) that gave Obama until October 15th this warning:

“If you stay,” the silent video message continues, “ ‘We, The People’ will systematically dismantle you, destroy you and reclaim what is rightfully ours

Link here

209 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:57:34am

re: #196 avanti

we now know more about how a God might have worked


The arrogance of that statement just boggles. But I have faith that God does indeed have a sense of humor, and is laughing heartily.

210 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:58:11am

re: #205 tradewind

For a site named ' media matters', it appears the only thing that matters to them is their obsession with the conservative/Republican point of view and how to whine about it. Scanning the headlines, I can't see one left-leaning or democrat headline that ' matters ' enough to them at all. Lots of dripping envy there, though.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

Media matters was specifically founded to track examples of conservative bias and conservative spin in the media. Duh.

211 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:59:11am

re: #200 Sharmuta

The Modern Whig Party is pro science:

EDUCATION/SCIENTIFIC ADVANCEMENT — Increased public and private emphasis on fields such as space, oceanic, medical and nanotechnology. Also, providing common-sense solutions to enhance our educational system from pre-school to university-level studies.

Modern Whig Party homepage

212 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 8:59:52am

re: #208 abbyadams

Hopefully it's just hollow rhetoric but I do suspect we're going to start seeing anti-government terrorism from the creeps eventually.

213 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:00:10am

re: #205 tradewind

For a site named ' media matters', it appears the only thing that matters to them is their obsession with the conservative/Republican point of view and how to whine about it. Scanning the headlines, I can't see one left-leaning or democrat headline that ' matters ' enough to them at all. Lots of dripping envy there, though.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

I agreed with Walter's skepticism, thus the other links to the actual "victim" that were posted to back up the story. No question media matters is funded by the left, but they often get the story correct.

214 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:00:26am

re: #210 iceweasel

That's certainly their prerogative. My gripe is with the disingenuous name. They're not big on disclosure, are they?
Maybe ConservativeWatch was taken.

215 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:01:51am

re: #198 Colin Nelson

re: #116 Locker

I thought it was a report about activity during a certain time frame. A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?

I don't even see Locker supporting the report in this post. Hell I'd agree with that post if the report said "Hamas used human shields during this period, and IDF attempted to minimize these and other causalities." I'm sure everyone here would agree with Locker's post in the case. Because, ideally thats exactly what a fair report would do. Simply outline what happened during the events in question. I'd certainly say this report was not fair and that it did not follow Locker's criteria for a fair report. Now if someone can show me where locker supported this particular report or Hamas, in this thread or any other I'd love to see it.

But instead of Mandy asking for clarification on what exactly Locker stated she simply screamed he supported Hamas. To me, attempting to label someone a terrorist supporter is a serious claim with real consequences and not simply an ad hominem for the intellectually lazy. I'd certainly respond to such a claim with much more venom than Locker did.

216 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:01:59am

re: #212 Killgore Trout

I do, too. I hope we're both wrong.

217 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:02:25am

re: #214 tradewind

That's certainly their prerogative. My gripe is with the disingenuous name. They're not big on disclosure, are they?
Maybe ConservativeWatch was taken.

Everyone, but everyone, except you, knows media matters' mission. You could try clicking the "About Us" link:

Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.

218 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:02:43am

re: #212 Killgore Trout

Hopefully it's just hollow rhetoric but I do suspect we're going to start seeing anti-government terrorism from the creeps eventually.

just wait until cap and trade legislation is passed...the shit will really hit the fan...people are just getting warmed up, I'm afraid

219 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:02:57am

THE MESSAGE FREEDOM AT ALL COST

Youtube Video
220 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:03:57am

re: #210 iceweasel

Media matters was specifically founded to track examples of conservative bias and conservative spin in the media. Duh.

I don't follow this site, nor do I follow what I assume is the Conservative equivalent, the Media Research Center Media Research Center

221 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:04:07am

On September 29, Richard Goldstone presented his report on the Gaza conflict to an enraptured UN Human Rights Council. The Council, in which the Organization of the Islamic Conference holds the balance of power, commissioned his report. Goldstone promoted his 575-page smear campaign against the State of Israel by parading his Jewishness and then analogizing his work to his prior efforts to combat apartheid.

At its core, the report repeats the ancient blood libel against the Jewish people. Or as Goldstone casts this abomination for a modern audience, Israel "deliberately…terrorize[d] a civilian population;" Israeli "violence against civilians w[as] part of a deliberate policy."

SNIP

The Bush administration refused to lend the Human Rights Council any credibility. While aware of the fact that the Council had adopted more resolutions and decisions condemning Israel than all other 191 UN member states combined, the Obama administration reversed course. The United States joined the Council and took its place as a full member for the first time at this latest session.

Given the Council's preoccupation with Israel, participating and lending it legitimacy handed the Obama administration new leverage - against its ally. In the past, Canada insisted that anti-Israel resolutions be brought to a vote, rather than railroaded through by "consensus," and courageously voted against.

SNIP


[Link: www.jpost.com...]

222 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:04:22am

re: #217 iceweasel

Everyone, but everyone, except you, knows media matters' mission


Well ___ me!
Now that you've cleared that up, I can breathe again.

223 Achilles Tang  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:04:35am

re: #206 MandyManners

IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT!

It's my DNA gone bad.

224 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:05:45am

re: #220 John Neverbend

I don't follow this site, nor do I follow what I assume is the Conservative equivalent, the Media Research Center Media Research Center

That is the conservative equivelent. Unfortunately, the conservative one really sucks.
They ought to get their act together and found something like Media Matters for the right. The MRC ain't it.

225 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:06:01am

re: #215 McSpiff

That war started with the first rocket fired at Israel from Gaza.

226 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:06:20am

re: #222 tradewind

Well ___ me!
Now that you've cleared that up, I can breathe again.

haha!...all that with the condescending humor to boot!...a twofer!

227 psyop  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:06:49am

Often, and this is certainly the case for me with Pawlenty, as a politician with national ambition (usually Republican, but not always) starts to permeate my consciousness, I pay more and more attention. At first, I hear things that I like, causing me to pay more attention.

Then... they ruin it with a creationist rant (excuse me... intelligent design), or a racist remark, or get caught banging a staffer after a stump speech on family values.

Or from the center-left pols I find interesting, they usually go on an anti-war screed. This bothered me particularly while I was actually in a theater of operation.

228 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:07:02am

re: #222 tradewind

Well ___ me!
Now that you've cleared that up, I can breathe again.

It's pretty simple. Next time, before you make unfounded claims that a site or an organisation 'isn't big on disclosure', try clicking their "About Us" link.

229 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:07:07am

re: #209 tradewind

The arrogance of that statement just boggles. But I have faith that God does indeed have a sense of humor, and is laughing heartily.

Follow me here if you like. Man created God's to explain the unexplainable. Sun God's, Moon God's and so on. Now that we are learning how they came to be, if you believe in God you might believe that his creations were more complected that simple magic tricks once you understand the science.

230 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:07:12am

re: #224 iceweasel

That is the conservative equivelent. Unfortunately, the conservative one really sucks.
They ought to get their act together and found something like Media Matters for the right. The MRC ain't it.

Your opinion wouldn't be biased at all would it?! ; )

231 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:07:17am

re: #224 iceweasel

Let me see if I have it now. Liberal fact-checking site, good. Conservative fact-checking site, bad.
/Check./

232 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:08:24am

re: #215 McSpiff

re: #116 Locker

I don't even see Locker supporting the report in this post. Hell I'd agree with that post if the report said "Hamas used human shields during this period, and IDF attempted to minimize these and other causalities." I'm sure everyone here would agree with Locker's post in the case. Because, ideally thats exactly what a fair report would do. Simply outline what happened during the events in question. I'd certainly say this report was not fair and that it did not follow Locker's criteria for a fair report. Now if someone can show me where locker supported this particular report or Hamas, in this thread or any other I'd love to see it.

But instead of Mandy asking for clarification on what exactly Locker stated she simply screamed he supported Hamas. To me, attempting to label someone a terrorist supporter is a serious claim with real consequences and not simply an ad hominem for the intellectually lazy. I'd certainly respond to such a claim with much more venom than Locker did.

Well said.

233 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:08:30am

re: #231 tradewind

Let me see if I have it now. Liberal fact-checking site, good. Conservative fact-checking site, bad.
/Check./


You don't understand. The conservative fact checkers are biased!

//

234 Buck  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:08:40am

Muslim group calls for ban on the burka

A Canadian Muslim group is calling on Ottawa to ban the wearing of the burka in public, saying the argument that the right to wear it is protected by the Charter's guarantee of freedom of religion is false.

"The burka has absolutely no place in Canada," said Farzana Hassan, of the Muslim Canadian Congress. "In Canada we recognize the equality of men and women. We want to recognize gender equality as an absolute. The burka marginalizes women."

She said many women who cover their face in public are being forced to by their husbands and family. As a result, she argued, these women are denied opportunities and cannot live freely as other women.

235 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:09:12am

re: #230 rwdflynavy

Your opinion wouldn't be biased at all would it?! ; )

I like debunking both the right and the left. The MRC just is worthless in that regard, unfortunately.

236 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:09:19am

re: #229 avanti

Follow me here if you like. Man created God's to explain the unexplainable


No thanks.

237 Gus  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:09:27am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

More socialist indoctrination of children...
White House Hosts Astronomy Night On South Lawn (PHOTOS)

Panic!

Oh noz! I saw Holdren in some of the photos.

Looks like Buzz Aldrin was there.

238 debutaunt  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:09:58am

re: #95 Spare O'Lake

Interesting that they have a "Five Year Plan".
The Soviets used to issue 5 Year Plans too, which were never fulfilled.

The result is always five years in the future, so they never failed. Cool!

239 Racer X  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:10:13am

re: #219 Killgore Trout

THE MESSAGE FREEDOM AT ALL COST


[Video]

WOLVERINES!

/no, wait. . . .

240 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:10:31am

re: #225 MandyManners

That war started with the first rocket fired at Israel from Gaza.

Did I ever disagree with that? Have I ever disagreed with Israel's conduct in this conflict or any other? Did I not just state that a fair report would absolve Israel against these foolish claims? But again you choose to not respond to a post, and simply bleat one liners is some foolish attempt to discredit your opponents. Except this time I could probably explain why your #225 is more accurate than you can.

241 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:11:16am

re: #200 Sharmuta

The problem is that in undermining science education in this country, we're hurting future generations of Americans remaining competitive in the global economy. Science, technology, medicine- these are all areas where America is starting to lose it's edge. If we continue to undermine our science education today, who will be there to fill the science jobs of tomorrow?

All the science jobs will be outsourced to India and China anyway.
/bitter sarc

242 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:11:35am

re: #224 iceweasel

That is the conservative equivelent. Unfortunately, the conservative one really sucks.
They ought to get their act together and found something like Media Matters for the right. The MRC ain't it.

What sucks about it? I'm asking seriously, because I don't think I've ever read any of their articles. I stumbled across it today after I looked at Media Matters and searched for the equivalent. It seems that it's much older than Media Matters (1987 v 2004?).

Reading the headlines on Media Matters, there does seem to be a preponderance of articles about Fox. I just saw an amusing 1 minute clip of O'Reilly telling Bachmann that she and Sarah Palin were relatively young and good looking (ok, probably true) and that they annoyed "the left" (also true). This is funny, but I don't think that particular clip shows any media bias, rather it shows O'Reilly sucking up to Michelle Bachmann.

243 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:11:39am

re: #218 albusteve

re: #212 Killgore Trout

What I truly don't get is this: nothing has really changed. I see people stockpiling ammunition. Freaking out about being "taxed enough already." Threatening government overthrow. Why? Because of fear that something might happen. I have people telling me "The government is repressing our rights," but if I ask them to specify, they can't. If I ask them "what is the government planning to do, to repress your rights?" I get stuff like "Obama's going to repeal the 2nd amendment."

These are the dangers of this rhetoric being heaved around by these extremists. First, it incites people to do stupid things. Second, it quashes any rational discussion on an issue. It's a shot in both feet.

244 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:12:24am

re: #233 rwdflynavy

You don't understand. The conservative fact checkers are biased!

//

Actually, I've found politifact.com and factcheck.org to both be good and they'll fact check both the right and the left. Politifact also keeps a running total of Obama campaign promises-- ones kept, ones broken, ones ignored.

The problem is there isn't an organisation on the right like Media Matters that exists purely to counter liberal spin. Brent Bozell's MRC is the only one founded, and it does just suck. Take a look at it. I'm not saying this as a liberal, mind you, but as a researcher.

245 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:12:29am

re: #242 John Neverbend

What sucks about it? I'm asking seriously, because I don't think I've ever read any of their articles. I stumbled across it today after I looked at Media Matters and searched for the equivalent. It seems that it's much older than Media Matters (1987 v 2004?).

Reading the headlines on Media Matters, there does seem to be a preponderance of articles about Fox. I just saw an amusing 1 minute clip of O'Reilly telling Bachmann that she and Sarah Palin were relatively young and good looking (ok, probably true) and that they annoyed "the left" (also true). This is funny, but I don't think that particular clip shows any media bias, rather it shows O'Reilly sucking up to Michelle Bachmann.

It is difficult to find a whole lot of conservative bias in the TV media other than Fox! Why is that?

246 mulgamutt  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:12:37am

Doesn't sound like he's "forcing" it to me.

Why do I get the impression that it's taboo to inform students of different fields of thought? I went to a Catholic school where we had specific classes on religion and the Bible, but evolution was not stricken from the curriculum. I get the feeling from this blog, especially over the last year or so (perhaps as long as "intelligent design vs creationism vs evolution" has, er, evolved as a hotcake issue) that there is only one road to be discussed, and that's that.

Don't get me wrong ... I am as conservative as they come, the liberal blogosphere/media/administration makes my head scream. If there's one thing that will derail any attempt at changing the scene in Washington and elsewhere, it's a splintering of the opposition. I see that happening, here on this blog and elsewhere. There is no cohesive message, no individual on the right that is heralded by all on the right, which leads me to believe that the left will only make grounds without even trying if this continues. Practically every leader of conservative thought has been criticized by this blog and others for either major issues or the most minute of particulars, and as long as this continues (and it's growing), we're screwed.

Name a conservative that fits every bill. I really want to know who that is. So far every one I think of ... Pawlenty, Romney, Palin, Steele, Bachmann, etc., etc., have all been thrown under this blog's bus for one thing or another. So, who remains? If there's no one, we're done.

247 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:13:07am

re: #243 abbyadams

It's completely imaginary. These people are living in a fantasy land.

248 badger1970  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:13:40am

re: #237 Gus 802

"Watch out for SNAKES!"- Eeagah

249 abbyadams  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:14:10am

re: #247 Killgore Trout

And it just seems to annoy them further when you point that out.

250 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:14:46am

Good golly. Defending a blood libel on LGF.

251 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:16:49am

re: #245 rwdflynavy

It is difficult to find a whole lot of conservative bias in the TV media other than Fox! Why is that?

Because the rest of the media are not biased towards Conservatism? This sounds a bit circular.

252 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:16:53am

re: #243 abbyadams

re: #212 Killgore Trout

What I truly don't get is this: nothing has really changed. I see people stockpiling ammunition. Freaking out about being "taxed enough already." Threatening government overthrow. Why? Because of fear that something might happen. I have people telling me "The government is repressing our rights," but if I ask them to specify, they can't. If I ask them "what is the government planning to do, to repress your rights?" I get stuff like "Obama's going to repeal the 2nd amendment."

These are the dangers of this rhetoric being heaved around by these extremists. First, it incites people to do stupid things. Second, it quashes any rational discussion on an issue. It's a shot in both feet.

I don't disagree, it's all about perception but in reality the car business, banks, and now healthcare have all been federalized to some degree with the tax burden that goes with it, cap and trade is not far behind...not expecting people to be very pissed of is naive...I believe there is a correlation there...but I don't agree with radicals overthrowing the govt or whatever

253 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:16:55am

re: #250 MandyManners

Bad times, for that sort of crazy to show up here. I'm off to work. BBT

254 Gus  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:17:23am

So, yeah, Pawlenty being interviewed by Brokaw. Looked to me like Pawlenty was shaking like a leaf and neither comfortable nor confident in his responses. His creationist meme is ridiculous. It's as if though the GOP is trying to do an end run on what progressed as a result of the Scopes trial.

255 Racer X  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:18:09am

re: #246 mulgamutt

Teach the controversy then. But that can apply to other aspects of society and spirituality. I don't see a lot of religious leaders clamoring to teach the controversy of homosexuality. Who gets a seat at the science table? Christian, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Buddhist, Scientologist?

257 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:18:56am

re: #241 Kosh's Shadow

All the science jobs will be outsourced to India and China anyway.
/bitter sarc

India more than China. I'm currently reading The Elephant and the Dragon. Good and scary read!!

Your text to link...

258 debutaunt  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:19:11am

re: #174 Noam Sayin'

You're blaming the I35 bridge collapse on Pawlenty?

He was also linked to Remagen.

259 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:19:41am

re: #246 mulgamutt

Why do I get the impression that it's taboo to inform students of different fields of thought? I went to a Catholic school where we had specific classes on religion and the Bible, but evolution was not stricken from the curriculum. I get the feeling from this blog, especially over the last year or so (perhaps as long as "intelligent design vs creationism vs evolution" has, er, evolved as a hotcake issue) that there is only one road to be discussed, and that's that.

I have no idea why you would have that impression. There are a large number of Lizards of faith that have no issue reconciling faith and science because we understand they are two different areas of thought. And considering the blog owner's repeatedly stated position that evolution and God are not in conflict, it's a wonder you'd have that impression at all.

I would wager a guess that you haven't read throughly about this issue at LGF to have come to such a conclusion that Lizards think the teaching of faith should be suppressed. We don't. We think the teaching of actual science in science classes and maintaining the separation of Church and State is the issue.

260 Gus  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:20:00am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Beck Tackles American Private Police Force Story


Glenn Beck = Alex Jones Lite

261 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:20:05am

re: #246 mulgamutt

You complain of "this blog" throwing a bunch of conservatives under the bus. I'd say those conservatives put themselves in whatever space they occupy by taking the positions they have taken. Don't blame "this blog" for pointing out facts. If you don't like facts, perhaps you should read "another blog."

262 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:20:22am

To 215 McSpiff

From #116 Locker"
"A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?"

Wrong. A report with out context fails to provide information necessary for a reader to comprehend the facts of the event(s) as reported.

263 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:20:57am

re: #242 John Neverbend

What sucks about it? I'm asking seriously, because I don't think I've ever read any of their articles. I stumbled across it today after I looked at Media Matters and searched for the equivalent. It seems that it's much older than Media Matters (1987 v 2004?).

Reading the headlines on Media Matters, there does seem to be a preponderance of articles about Fox. I just saw an amusing 1 minute clip of O'Reilly telling Bachmann that she and Sarah Palin were relatively young and good looking (ok, probably true) and that they annoyed "the left" (also true). This is funny, but I don't think that particular clip shows any media bias, rather it shows O'Reilly sucking up to Michelle Bachmann.

Media Matters is huge and has a lot of updates per day. They'll cover things that are merely funny or embarassing to Republicans, as well as newsworthy. Fox is on there a lot because Fox is arguably the biggest single source of conservative misinformation.

the MRC is a wreck because the research is shoddy. Brent Bozell is a bit of a religious nut.

Here's an article from 2005 from the Columbia Journalism Review that I think summarises a lot of the problems with the MRC. I recommend it to anyone who wonders why they are not reliable.

264 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:22:00am

re: #260 Gus 802

Glenn Beck = Alex Jones Lite

He's not even a watered down version anymore. Alex Jones broke this story last week.

265 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:22:36am

re: #255 Racer X

Teach the controversy then. But that can apply to other aspects of society and spirituality. I don't see a lot of religious leaders clamoring to teach the controversy of homosexuality. Who gets a seat at the science table? Christian, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Buddhist, Scientologist?

Good luck with that. The intention is to apply it where it's actually least relevant, i.e. to established science where "controversy" isn't significant, at least not at a high school level. What would be good to ask for is that if they must teach "the controversy", since we know it will only actually apply to evolution, let's throw in the flying spaghetti monster as an alternative "theory" to be taught, discussed, digested (pun intended).

266 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:23:06am

re: #255 Racer X

The only persons seated at the science table should be scientists.
And that was the experience I had in twelve years of a school affiliated with a church... we were taught evolution, period in science class, without exception.
We had classes in religion, but they were not mixed into the science curriculum.
I have to imagine that is still the case in most good schools, church affiliated or not.

267 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:23:35am

re: #264 Killgore Trout

re: #260 Gus 802

Glenn Beck = Alex Jones Lite

He's not even a watered down version anymore. Alex Jones broke this story last week.


Glenn Beck = Alex Jones Lite Slow

268 Teh Flowah  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:23:47am

re: #246 mulgamutt

Doesn't sound like he's "forcing" it to me.

Why do I get the impression that it's taboo to inform students of different fields of thought? I went to a Catholic school where we had specific classes on religion and the Bible, but evolution was not stricken from the curriculum.


Why would it be? Catholics should have no quarrel with evolution. It was taught at my Catholic school as fact. I've asked numerous priests and one bishop. The last two popes' own words confirm this.

Any Catholic who thinks differently isn't educated on the issue.

269 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:24:54am

re: #259 Sharmuta

I have no idea why you would have that impression. There are a large number of Lizards of faith that have no issue reconciling faith and science because we understand they are two different areas of thought. And considering the blog owner's repeatedly stated position that evolution and God are not in conflict, it's a wonder you'd have that impression at all.

I would wager a guess that you haven't read throughly about this issue at LGF to have come to such a conclusion that Lizards think the teaching of faith should be suppressed. We don't. We think the teaching of actual science in science classes and maintaining the separation of Church and State is the issue.

GRRR!...I get tired of that same old tripe...well said, and polite too...missing such a fundamental aspect of LGF is really inexcusable

270 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:25:56am

re: #267 wrenchwench

Heh.

271 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:25:59am

re: #262 Colin Nelson

To 215 McSpiff

From #116 Locker"
"A fair report would accurate detail what happened during that time period right?"

Wrong. A report with out context fails to provide information necessary for a reader to comprehend the facts of the event(s) as reported.

I would consider a fair report one that includes a long enough time scale to include the start of the conflict to a reasonable end point, with a note stating if the conflict had not yet reached a conflict (might as well copy and paste that for any report on the middle east...). So when Mandy states that the war started with the first rockets from Gaza, I would agree. And I would say that any report must start from there at the latest.

272 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:26:34am

re: #271 McSpiff

should read "...reached a conclusion..."

273 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:26:39am

re: #263 iceweasel

From the Columbia School of Journalism?
That's the veritable mother ship of media bias in many cases. Why not just cite a study done by DU or FireDogLake?
If you can find a journalism graduate from Columbia in the past few years who is not a registered Democrat or would not proudly admit that they have a left-leaning bias, it would be surprising.

274 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:30:34am

re: #263 iceweasel

Media Matters is huge and has a lot of updates per day. They'll cover things that are merely funny or embarassing to Republicans, as well as newsworthy. Fox is on there a lot because Fox is arguably the biggest single source of conservative misinformation.

the MRC is a wreck because the research is shoddy. Brent Bozell is a bit of a religious nut.

Here's an article from 2005 from the Columbia Journalism Review that I think summarises a lot of the problems with the MRC. I recommend it to anyone who wonders why they are not reliable.

I see that he's a nephew of Bill Buckley, and I'd like to know if he's a creationist. There's nothing in the Wiki description that leads me to believe he is or isn't a nut.

275 albusteve  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:31:01am

Reform' Is Just a Word at the U.N., Its Own Investigation Shows

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

276 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:31:57am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

Was there any mention of the fact that the logo used by the American Police Force (the badge worn by these rent-a-cops) is virtually identical to the crest on the Serbian flag?

277 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:32:48am

re: #273 tradewind

From the Columbia School of Journalism?
That's the veritable mother ship of media bias in many cases. Why not just cite a study done by DU or FireDogLake?
If you can find a journalism graduate from Columbia in the past few years who is not a registered Democrat or would not proudly admit that they have a left-leaning bias, it would be surprising.

I really think a lot of this boils down to personal preferences. Is the Grauniad more or less biased than The Times, for example. I don't know the answer.

I will make a point of trying to examine both sites more closely in future, so that I can attempt to come to my own informed opinion.

278 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:33:55am

re: #273 tradewind

From the Columbia School of Journalism?
That's the veritable mother ship of media bias in many cases. Why not just cite a study done by DU or FireDogLake?
If you can find a journalism graduate from Columbia in the past few years who is not a registered Democrat or would not proudly admit that they have a left-leaning bias, it would be surprising.

Did you read the article, or is this like when you looked at Media Matters and decided they were 'hiding something' -- without bothering to click their "about us" page?

The Columbia School of Journalism is one of the top 2 J-schools in the country.
The Columbia Journalism Review-- which is what I actually linked -- is their journal, which is dedicated to reviewing journalism. It's widely recognised as having the highest standards possible for its media criticsm.

It's pretty clear that any evidence I provide you, whether from journalists, academics, or scientists, will be dismissed as "they're democrats" or "they're liberals". This reflects your OWN inability to see that people can function as critical thinkers outside of their own ideological biases-- no doubt because, as you have so aptly demonstrated here, you yourself are incapable of doing so.

279 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:35:26am

re: #274 John Neverbend

I see that he's a nephew of Bill Buckley, and I'd like to know if he's a creationist. There's nothing in the Wiki description that leads me to believe he is or isn't a nut.

He's a Catholic, so I don't think he'd be a creationist.
Dig through the wiki footnotes for more.

280 badger1970  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:35:53am

re: #268 Teh Flowah

Jesuit?

The Dominicans also have no quarrel with evolution, neither did JP II. It's not how but what.

281 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:36:55am

re: #61 MandyManners

Crap. Wish I hadn't read that, hadn't until now.
The ambulances... it's all coming back to me now, in depressing detail.
I guess it was predictable from the country where diplomats apologize profusely for their cartoonists.

282 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:37:43am

re: #276 lawhawk

Was there any mention of the fact that the logo used by the American Police Force (the badge worn by these rent-a-cops) is virtually identical to the crest on the Serbian flag?

Beck mentioned it. Alex Jones said it was the Bilderberg crest

283 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:38:34am

re: #278 iceweasel

That people function as ' critical thinkers outside their own ideological basis' is what used to be known as serious journalism.
Unfortunately, not so much, and it is certainly not flowing from Columbia's J-School.

284 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:39:03am

re: #281 tradewind

Crap. Wish I hadn't read that, hadn't until now.
The ambulances... it's all coming back to me now, in depressing detail.
I guess it was predictable from the country where diplomats apologize profusely for their cartoonists.

Denmark. The Muhammad cartoons were from Denmark.

285 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:39:42am

re: #282 Killgore Trout

Beck mentioned it. Alex Jones said it was the Bilderberg crest

But they are talking over Towns right here in America ! ///

link.

286 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:41:27am

Fox picked up zombie's NAMBLA story...
Fox has a new fantasy

Leaving aside the fact that Kevin Jennings, the target of their smear, isn't a 'czar' (he's the Department of Education’s Assistant Deputy Secretary for Safe Schools), the Fox-Hannity-King smear is totally false.

1. Jennings has never praised NAMBLA. The statement that Hannity claims was praise for NAMBLA was actually praise for Harry Hay's creation of the Mattachine Society, the nation's first gay rights group.

2. The boy Jennings counseled had no sexual contact with the man he had met during a bus trip. (And unlike in King's fantasy, they did not meet in a bathroom.) The boy and the man simply had a discussion.

3. Even if they did have sexual relations, the boy was not fifteen. He was 16 -- the age of consent in Massachussets.

Another way of putting it: Everything that Fox, Hannity, and King claimed in their "report" was a lie. As usual.

287 Equable  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:41:53am

Something off topic, but light-hearted for these gloomy morning news days.

Macintosh being praised as a computer standard by ... Bill Gates? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Youtube Video
288 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:42:04am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Fox picked up zombie's NAMBLA story...
Fox has a new fantasy

Chicken Kiev didn't get any credit?

289 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:42:29am

OT:
Look for India to blame the ISI and the Taliban for this.

A suicide car bomber detonated his vehicle outside the Indian Embassy in the busy center of Afghanistan's capital on Thursday, killing 17 people and wounding nearly 80 in the second major attack in the city in less than a month.

The Taliban claimed responsibility for the 8:30 a.m. assault and said the embassy was the target.

The blast occurred a day after the Afghanistan war reached its eighth anniversary and as President Barack Obama considered a request for between 10,000 and 40,000 additional troops prepared by the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal.

A suicide bomber targeted the Indian embassy in Kabul (not for the first time it's been attacked either). That comes on the heels of a report in an Indian newspaper that the ISI was trying to convince the Taliban to go after India in Jammu and Kashmir across the Line of Control instead of going after Pakistanis.

The tension between India and Pakistan just got ratcheted up another notch.

290 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:42:42am

re: #284 McSpiff
The national borders in that region when it comes to groveling seems to be quite fluid. The Danes did some mighty apologizing, regardless of where the cartoons were drawn.
[Link: www.thelocal.se...]
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

291 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:43:39am

PIMF, the Swedes

292 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:44:12am

re: #290 tradewind

The national borders in that region when it comes to groveling seems to be quite fluid. The Danes did some mighty apologizing, regardless of where the cartoons were drawn.
[Link: www.thelocal.se...]
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

O, looks like I stuck my foot in my mouth on that one. Thanks for the links.

293 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:44:27am

re: #288 Sharmuta

Chicken Kiev didn't get any credit?

And Z "doesn't want any."

266zombie on Oct 7, 2009 at 10:08 pm:
pat: Hannity steals story.

Not the first time he’s done that.

Actually, it’s about the fifth time. I’ve basically been relegated to being the only unpaid member on Hannity’s research team.

And the ironic part? I don’t watch TV and I’ve never seen his show! I only hear about in second-hand reports.

But I’m secretly happy, because now it is Hannity — not me — who will take the heat from Jennings’ powerful defenders. Seriously, I’d rather that someone else would go to the work to dig this stuff up. I only do it because no one else seems willing to pick up the ball. As long as it enters the mainstream of American consciousness, I’m satisfied. I prefer to stay in the background, if possible.

294 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:46:21am

re: #293 wrenchwench

More kook fodder.

295 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:46:29am

re: #288 Sharmuta

Chicken Kiev didn't get any credit?

It's actually a little surprising that none of the links go back to zombie (or chicken kiev). Media Matters is just dealing with the MSM coverage.

296 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:47:49am

re: #293 wrenchwench

Damn, it's getting so you can't make up a fake issue without Fox stealing it from you.

297 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:48:35am

re: #293 wrenchwench

Also Hannity (et al) will take the hit if the story is debunked.

298 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:48:40am

zomblog has reached the apex of its success. Ed of many TMIs has posted a very long weather forecast.

299 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:49:14am

re: #290 tradewind

Remember how the Swedes bought into the blood libel about selling organs?

300 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:49:41am

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Also Hannity (et al) will take the hit if the story is debunked.

That's what zombie hopes. The more coverage gets out there, the more likely she will be exposed, IMHO.

301 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:49:41am

re: #292 McSpiff

See my PIMF, I did as well, so it's a wash.
:)
It sounds so ignorant-arrogant-American, but the Scandinavian countries always run together in my mind ( though I am sure that each country would take offense at that).
Cold, anyway... brrr.

302 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:49:52am
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to declare the UK’s opposition to the Goldstone Report and to ensure its rejection when a vote is taken in the UN Human Rights Council in March 2010. We believe that the Report was biased against Israel from the announcement of the UN mission’s mandate. This was compounded by its composition, by the selectivity of the incidents it investigated, by the witnesses it interviewed and by its almost complete failure to refer to terrorism and to the defensive context of Israel’s operation in Gaza in January 2009.

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition. Please enter your name only; signatures containing other text may be removed by the petitions team.

[Link: petitions.number10.gov.uk...]

I'm not British.

303 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:50:17am

re: #296 avanti

Unless Dan Rather gets to it first.

304 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:51:13am

re: #299 MandyManners
You mean that's a lie?
Oh well. still... the matzo meal...
///

305 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:52:20am

re: #271 McSpiff

Just to close this off - Locker's 116 was misleading (given my assumption) in that Locker must be aware of the world wide (minus the Muslim states) condemnation of the Goldstone report.

To (seemingly) innocently ask the question he did was clearly provocative and inflammatory given the subject at hand.

Locker is not quite the naif that his 116 pretends to be.

306 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:53:33am

re: #304 tradewind

You mean that's a lie?
Oh well. still... the matzo meal...
///

You know its not really Matzah meal . . . what do you think we do with the bones?///

307 Danny  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:53:35am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Fox picked up zombie's NAMBLA story...
Fox has a new fantasy

Despite Hannity's innacuracies, Jennings will probably end up getting canned or resigning due to the connections between Hay's Mattachine Society and CPUSA.

308 Buck  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:54:41am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

IMO any praise for Harry Hay is too much.

309 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:55:10am

re: #305 Colin Nelson

Just to close this off - Locker's 116 was misleading (given my assumption) in that Locker must be aware of the world wide (minus the Muslim states) condemnation of the Goldstone report.

To (seemingly) innocently ask the question he did was clearly provocative and inflammatory given the subject at hand.

Locker is not quite the naif that his 116 pretends to be.

I'd honestly never heard of the report till this thread, so I guess I need to be lumped into the same category. I've stopped following reports about the IDF conduct expect those the IDF itself publishes.

310 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:55:34am

re: #302 Ben Hur

Just fill it out anyway and check the box marked ' expatriate', with your fingers crossed. Works for me.

311 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:56:06am

re: #306 Creeping Eruption

My point.
And don't drink the Mogan David.

312 mj  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:57:00am

This is disconcerting from Scalia:

Cross honors all war dead, Scalia says

October 8, 2009

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said it was an "outrageous conclusion" that a war memorial featuring a cross only honors Christian war dead.

The statement came during arguments Wednesday in the case of Salazar v. Buono, which deals with the constitutionality of a 6 1/2-foot cross sitting on what originally was public land in California's Mojave National Preserve.

The memorial was constructed 75 years ago to honor World War I victims, but 10 years ago it was challenged by a National Park Service employee who thought it violated the Constitution's ban on government establishment of religion.

Congress passed legislation in 2004 declaring the site a national memorial. The legislation transferred the ownership of the land on which the memorial sits to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in exchange for five privately owned acres in the preserve.

Scalia was responding to a statement from American Civil Liberties Union lawyer Peter Eliasberg that such a memorial "signifies that Jesus is the son of God and died to redeem mankind for our sins," and thus could not be a secular memorial.

Scalia, according to media reports, responded that the cross was the "common symbol of the resting place of the dead" and asked whether the lawyer would instead want erected "some conglomerate of a cross, a Star of David and, you know, a Muslim half-moon and star?"

Eliasberg responded, "I have been in Jewish cemeteries. There is never a cross on a tombstone of a Jew."

The justice retorted, "I don't think you can leap from that to the conclusion that the only war dead that that cross honors are the Christian war dead. I think that's an outrageous conclusion."

Legal observers said the court may end up deciding the case on the narrower issue of whether Congress acted legally in transferring ownership of the land to a private entity rather than the constitutionality of the cross sitting on public land.

[Link: jta.org...]

313 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:57:01am

re: #283 tradewind

That people function as ' critical thinkers outside their own ideological basis' is what used to be known as serious journalism.
Unfortunately, not so much, and it is certainly not flowing from Columbia's J-School.

Right. Except you're merely repeating a popular anti-intellectual wingnut talking point, haven't actually done any research on it, provide no examples, and have already demonstrated your complete willingness to jump to conclusions without doing even a modicum of research-- like clicking an "About US" link.

Now, you can go back to pulling reasons out of your ass for not wanting to believe anything that is ever critical of a conservative, which would be a fine resume builder for working at the MRC, or you can try reading some things and doing some research.

314 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:57:34am

re: #307 Danny

Possibly, I haven't been following the story enough to know how valid it might be. I just don't see scouring the past of political appointees as very important. My family worked for the government and have been bitching about incompetent and unqualified political appointees my entire life. It's nothing new.

315 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 9:59:03am

I'm for letting things be decided on the local level.

Let's see: Hamtramck, MI, local school board decides to teach the Muslim version of creation in science class.

I'm sure Pawlenty would have no objections.

316 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:00:01am

re: #295 Killgore Trout

It's actually a little surprising that none of the links go back to zombie (or chicken kiev). Media Matters is just dealing with the MSM coverage.

It's not surprising at all. Zombie is NOT teh source of the smear. She only wants to claim credit for it. Hannity has been hammering on Jennings for a week or so and the Henry Hay bullshit had already been surfacing.

More bullshit grandstanding by zombie.

317 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:00:23am

re: #312 mj

This is disconcerting from Scalia:

Cross honors all war dead, Scalia says

October 8, 2009

[Link: jta.org...]

Ignoring the other issues, for Scalia to contend the cross is not a Christian symbol is a bit of faith based judicial activism IMHO.

318 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:00:26am

Thanos, you posted an earlier report about retail sales. More retailers have posted their monthly sales figures, and the latest batch shows declining sales, but not nearly as bad as experts had thought.

Federated (Macys) showed a 2.3% decline (experts expected 4.6% decline).
Limited Brands eeked out a gain of 1%.

It's also interesting how the earlier report claimed that there was a modest gain when it was a measley 0.1%, and you just know that if this happened under the prior Administration, it would be spun as "sales were virtually flat".

Fact is, the sales were virtually flat and some leading retailers took it on the chin, but just not as bad as had been expected (though managing expectations is also part of the game - lead experts to think things are going to be worse, beat the expectations, and then profit as your stock rises on the news of beating the expectation).

319 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:00:32am

re: #189 Stormy

Speaking in October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said,

"the wedge metaphor has outlived its usefulness. Indeed, with ID critics like Barbara Forrest and Paul Gross writing books like Evolution and the Wedge of Intelligent Design: The Trojan Horse Strategy, the wedge metaphor has even become a liability. To be sure, our critics will attempt to keep throwing the wedge metaphor (and especially the notorious wedge document) in our face. But the wedge needs to be seen as a propaedeutic — as an anticipation of and preparation for a positive, design-theoretic research program that invigorates science and renews culture."

But the highlighted portion is precisely the core of the WEdge Strategy, a distillation of the entire Wedge Document's goals and aspirations into a single sentence. What these authors are saying is simple: "Oh, shit - they're on to us! Quick, let's stop using the word "wedge" and start calling our strategy something different, so maybe they won't notice!"

It's exactly the sort of lying, weaseling behavior that is so prominent among the theocrats running the creationist scam.

320 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:00:55am

re: #315 Cato the Elder

I'm for letting things be decided on the local level.

Let's see: Hamtramck, MI, local school board decides to teach the Muslim version of creation in science class.

I'm sure Pawlenty would have no objections.

And what about someplace deciding to teach that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything?

321 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:01:11am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Since DailyKos doesn't provide any substantial supporting evidence either, it's a he=said/he-said at this point. And oh... sixteen, not fifteen.
That makes it all so much better.
///

322 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:01:41am

re: #320 Kosh's Shadow

And what about someplace deciding to teach that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything?

And Cthulu? What about his folk?

323 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:02:28am

re: #305 Colin Nelson

Just to close this off - Locker's 116 was misleading (given my assumption) in that Locker must be aware of the world wide (minus the Muslim states) condemnation of the Goldstone report.

To (seemingly) innocently ask the question he did was clearly provocative and inflammatory given the subject at hand.

Locker is not quite the naif that his 116 pretends to be.

I think you're wrong in your assumption that he 'must know' about that. Locker is a liberal, yes. I've never seen anything from him to suggest the kind of gameplaying and intellectual dishonesty you would ascribe to him here.

324 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:02:56am

re: #317 avanti

Ignoring the other issues, for Scalia to contend the cross is not a Christian symbol is a bit of faith based judicial activism IMHO.

Hopefully, the Court can concentrate on the issue of the transfer of the land and leave other, thornier issues, out of it.

325 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:04:29am

re: #322 Guanxi88

And Cthulu? What about his folk?

Even Cthulu came long after the Elder Gods, whose followers dance madly in caverns in weird rituals, and laugh madly at those who teach evolution.
Actually, they madly laugh at everything, because they are utterly insane from having seen the horrors of the Elder Gods and their messenger, Nyarlathotep.

326 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:04:41am

re: #316 iceweasel

It's not surprising at all. Zombie is NOT teh source of the smear. She only wants to claim credit for it.

Is Zombie definitely female? I ask because in one of yesterday's threads, Cato referred to Zombie as "sheit" and "himerit".

327 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:04:45am

re: #317 avanti

Except when Madonna drapes herself in them in her act. Probably not so much a Christian symbol, then.
I agree no one should force religion into the public arena. But the WWI vets who bough and paid for this monument... and by the way.. hundreds of others... probably did not see it as a violation of the Constitution. And the private sector has tried to purchase the land, removing it from public domain..which is being block by a lawsuit. Tell me that's not spite for spite's sake.

328 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:05:26am

Hmm.

I see we still have a few creationists hanging around at LGF.

329 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:06:03am

re: #321 tradewind

They provide links to their debunking. I'm not going to bother to read it. I just posted it for those who are following the story.

330 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:06:19am

re: #321 tradewind

Since DailyKos doesn't provide any substantial supporting evidence either, it's a he=said/he-said at this point. And oh... sixteen, not fifteen.
That makes it all so much better.
///

So since the "victim" said he did not have sex with the adult, and even if he did, it was legal consent, what issue do you now have ?

331 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:07:34am

re: #325 Kosh's Shadow


Actually, they madly laugh at everything, because they are utterly insane from having seen the horrors of the Elder Gods and their messenger, Nyarlathotep.

Pres # 44 gets a giggle out of a lot of folk, don't he?

332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:08:13am

I can see the science teachers being forced to teach it.

The kids might not see them roll their eyes.

333 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:08:35am

re: #302 Ben Hur

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition. Please enter your name only; signatures containing other text may be removed by the petitions team.

[Link: petitions.number10.gov.uk...]

I'm not British.

I once drank Boodles gin. Does that count?

334 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:10:07am

re: #326 John Neverbend

Is Zombie definitely female? I ask because in one of yesterday's threads, Cato referred to Zombie as "sheit" and "himerit".

I've no idea what her gender is, she's always concealed it. The scary liberals will get her fired from her job if they only knew she was taking pictures at antiwar rallies. //

I think it's dehumanising to call a poster 'it', and the 'they' construction irritates my pedant nerve.

I sort of use 'she' because english doesn't have a unisex pronoun (there are some proposed ones, 'zir' etc all of which I find both ugly and hilarious) and I see no reason to default to 'he'. I'm kind of mocking zombie when I do it as well as our linguistic conventions.

335 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #324 Guanxi88

Hopefully, the Court can concentrate on the issue of the transfer of the land and leave other, thornier issues, out of it.

I agree. A narrow ruling allowing the cross based on how long it's stood, or a or the legal standing of the complainants would be fine. Allowing crosses on federal lands in general, would be a issue for me.

336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:10:38am

re: #311 tradewind

My point.
And don't drink the Mogan David.

"Will there be Mogen David in Heaven?
"Dear Lord, I really want to know!
"Will there be Mogen David in Heaven, Sweet Jesus
"If there ain't; Who the Hell wants to go!"
-Larry Gatlin

337 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:10:44am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

You don't hear much anymore about those MT and WY militia compounds anymore... are they still around?

338 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:11:06am

re: #334 iceweasel

I've no idea what her gender is, she's always concealed it. The scary liberals will get her fired from her job if they only knew she was taking pictures at antiwar rallies. //

I think it's dehumanising to call a poster 'it', and the 'they' construction irritates my pedant nerve.

I sort of use 'she' because english doesn't have a unisex pronoun (there are some proposed ones, 'zir' etc all of which I find both ugly and hilarious) and I see no reason to default to 'he'. I'm kind of mocking zombie when I do it as well as our linguistic conventions.

Well, a contraction of she, he, it has been proposed, but you can't say it on TV.

339 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:11:17am

re: #318 lawhawk

I'm pretty skeptical of this rally too. I can't believe we've held on to as much the gains as we have so far. Thing are looking pretty bullish out there. Let's hope the bulls are right.

340 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:11:32am

re: #335 avanti

I agree. A narrow ruling allowing the cross based on how long it's stood, or a or the legal standing of the complainants would be fine. Allowing crosses on federal lands in general, would be a issue for me.

That's a no-win for anyone; bound to piss off folk no matter which way they go on it. Safer, and every bit as correct, to address the underlying question of whose land it is, and whether the ownership was transferred properly.

341 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:12:31am

re: #336 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LOL, I've heard that song, only down here they substitute Thunderbird...

342 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:12:47am

re: #339 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty skeptical of this rally too. I can't believe we've held on to as much the gains as we have so far. Thing are looking pretty bullish out there. Let's hope the bulls are right.

I'm waiting for a correction so I can buy in again. I took some money out a few weeks back when I thought we were due.

343 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #337 tradewind

You don't hear much anymore about those MT and WY militia compounds anymore... are they still around?

I don't know. I suspect they've changed since the 80's. I think now they look and feel a little more like private shooting ranges rather than paramilitary training grounds.

344 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:15:00am

re: #339 Killgore Trout

I think the main reason the rally has lasted as long as it has is because there isn't any other place to park the large sums of money involved that will make money other than perhaps gold (and where fewer people engage in commodities trading than stocks). Sitting on the sidelines isn't an option, so it's going into the market in places that people think will be insulated from a prolonged downturn.

Problem occurs when the external signs of economic trouble become so overwhelming that the markets can't ignore them for much longer; note the woes coming from commercial real estate, ongoing residential real estate is still underwater for many households that purchased in last 3 years - and which reduces money that goes to discretionary spending or home improvement or home sales, the automakers continuing slide, etc.

345 avanti  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:15:27am

re: #340 Guanxi88

That's a no-win for anyone; bound to piss off folk no matter which way they go on it. Safer, and every bit as correct, to address the underlying question of whose land it is, and whether the ownership was transferred properly.

Yes, but the transfer was done just to get around the Constitution. It's a tiny private parcel in the middle of federal lands. You could sell a few square feet in front of a court house and toss up a cross if that was legal.

346 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:15:28am

re: #342 avanti

I'm pretty much a long term investor so when I'm in I stay in. I did have pretty much all my short term money invested during the meltdown last fall. In another few months I'm going to start taking money out again (hopefully).

347 Colin Nelson  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:15:32am

re: #323 iceweasel

I'll accept your support of Locker.

That he knew nothing about the controversy about the Goldstone report is a bit of a stretch for me but certainly it's possible.

...guess he lacked the context for the reportand for his question that I suggest is essential to understanding.

348 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:17:50am

re: #334 iceweasel

I sort of use 'she' because english doesn't have a unisex pronoun (there are some proposed ones, 'zir' etc all of which I find both ugly and hilarious) and I see no reason to default to 'he'. I'm kind of mocking zombie when I do it as well as our linguistic conventions.

Not by design, but "sheit" looks pejorative, rather like a variant spelling of "shite", and "himerit" could almost be a regional US or Canadian pronunciation of "haemorrhoid".

349 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:18:21am

re: #318 lawhawk

Thanos, you posted an earlier report about retail sales. More retailers have posted their monthly sales figures, and the latest batch shows declining sales, but not nearly as bad as experts had thought.

Federated (Macys) showed a 2.3% decline (experts expected 4.6% decline).
Limited Brands eeked out a gain of 1%.

It's also interesting how the earlier report claimed that there was a modest gain when it was a measley 0.1%, and you just know that if this happened under the prior Administration, it would be spun as "sales were virtually flat".

Fact is, the sales were virtually flat and some leading retailers took it on the chin, but just not as bad as had been expected (though managing expectations is also part of the game - lead experts to think things are going to be worse, beat the expectations, and then profit as your stock rises on the news of beating the expectation).

Good catch there, It's busy today, and I just had chance to skim headlines before posting this am. I suspect you will see a trend where mid and upscale stores are down, but Target, Walmart, Sam's Costco will be up. September is a problematic month in that you get that "back to school" bulge as well.

350 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:18:35am

re: #318 lawhawk

It's going to be interesting to see what happens to the marked as investment managers reallocate more defensively than ever before, too...

351 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:18:55am

re: #345 avanti

Yes, but the transfer was done just to get around the Constitution. It's a tiny private parcel in the middle of federal lands. You could sell a few square feet in front of a court house and toss up a cross if that was legal.

Exactly; this is why the only focus should be to determine whether the transfer was legally made. If the transfer was legitimate, then that's that, and the memorial stays; if not, well, then other options have to be considered.

But trying to rule one way or the other on the basis of iconography at the site would be needlessly inflammatory, no matter which way the decision went.

352 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:19:04am

/PIMF, market/

353 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:20:17am

I kicked ass today with a nice sale.

MARKET'S UP FOR ME!

354 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:21:10am

re: #345 avanti

Do you have any idea how many hundreds of war memorials incorporating a cross in one form or another are dotting the landscape?
Someone's going to be very busy remediating this situation.

355 StillAMarine  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:22:21am

re: #320 Kosh's Shadow

Oh No! It wasn't the Great Spaghetti Monster, it was the Holy Butterfly of Peace who flits around the world dispensing clued outness from the dust on his holy wings wherever he goes.
The Universe was Created from the spittle on His lips.

No sillier than the Ccreationist theology.

356 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:23:30am

re: #355 StillAMarine

Oh No! It wasn't the Great Spaghetti Monster, it was the Holy Butterfly of Peace who flits around the world dispensing clued outness from the dust on his holy wings wherever he goes.
The Universe was Created from the spittle on His lips.

No sillier than the Ccreationist theology.

Douglas Adams references a creation mythos in which the universe was sneezed out by the Creator. The end of time is pictured as the handkerchief coming up.

357 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:24:32am

re: #324 Guanxi88

Hopefully, the Court can concentrate on the issue of the transfer of the land and leave other, thornier issues, out of it.

Those New Yorkers at LGF may remember that some years ago, during the month of December, the Helmsley Building which stands between Park Avenue and Park Avenue South and is visible anywhere from 46th to 97th street on Park displayed an enormous illuminated cross. They did this by making sure that certain offices left their lights on and the rest turned them off. I think the practice was discontinued, but I'm not sure if it was over religious objections.

Personally, I did not find this to be offensive, and it would have been an interesting experience driving into New York from the north, going down Park. There is a slight hill up to 97th street and then one would have looked down Park for the next 2.5 miles to this huge illuminated cross.

358 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:24:43am

re: #355 StillAMarine

Oh No! It wasn't the Great Spaghetti Monster, it was the Holy Butterfly of Peace who flits around the world dispensing clued outness from the dust on his holy wings wherever he goes.
The Universe was Created from the spittle on His lips.

No sillier than the Ccreationist theology.

Bryon Gysin had his all-purpose nuclear bedtime story:

Trillions of years ago, a great sloppy giant dropped gobs of grease from his fingers. One of those gobs of grease is our universe, on its way to the floor. Splat!

359 Danny  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:24:43am

re: #328 Charles

Hmm.

I see we still have a few creationists hanging around at LGF.

Maybe they're hanging around waiting for another evolution post.

Youtube Video
360 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:25:38am

re: #354 tradewind

Do you have any idea how many hundreds of war memorials incorporating a cross in one form or another are dotting the landscape?
Someone's going to be very busy remediating this situation.

Obama promised us jobs.

361 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:27:30am

re: #360 Walter L. Newton

Obama promised us jobs.

Well, if the offending memorials have bronze or copper in them, I imagine that they'd be cleared out in fairly short order. Cemeteries all across the USA report the theft of urns and markers to be sold for scrap by junkies and lowlifes.

362 tradewind  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:29:48am

re: #360 Walter L. Newton

Heh.

363 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:31:29am

re: #356 Guanxi88

Douglas Adams references a creation mythos in which the universe was sneezed out by the Creator. The end of time is pictured as the handkerchief coming up.

Meet you at Milliway's, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

364 debutaunt  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:32:26am

re: #360 Walter L. Newton

Obama promised us jobs.

The ever-increasing unemployment numbers are an aberration.

365 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:32:33am

re: #334 iceweasel

I've no idea what her gender is, she's always concealed it. The scary liberals will get her fired from her job if they only knew she was taking pictures at antiwar rallies. //

I think it's dehumanising to call a poster 'it', and the 'they' construction irritates my pedant nerve.

I sort of use 'she' because english doesn't have a unisex pronoun (there are some proposed ones, 'zir' etc all of which I find both ugly and hilarious) and I see no reason to default to 'he'. I'm kind of mocking zombie when I do it as well as our linguistic conventions.

English now has a complete set of all-purpose pronouns covering the masculine, feminine and neuter genders in easy-to-use single words!

nominative: sheit = she/he/it (pr. "sheet" or "shite" depending on how you feel about the person/thing)

possessive: hiserits = his/hers/its

objective: himerit = him/her/it

reflexive: himeritself = himself/herself/itself

I started introducing them the other day, as my contribution to gender-neutral speech. They are my creations, but I freely license their use by all. This post serves as my copyright notice.

366 Liberally Conservative  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:37:37am

Teach the controversy! (disclaimer: it's a store, but the pictures are hilarious)

367 aagcobb  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:37:44am

re: #332 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I can see the science teachers being forced to teach it.

The kids might not see them roll their eyes.

You have to remember that a lot of science classes are taught by people like football coaches, because scientists can make a lot more money than public school teachers. Plenty of teachers would be happy to give their science students sunday school lessons instead.

368 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:39:55am

"local control" to push an agenda gives me the same hollow feeling inside that the supporters of slavery and revisionists used "states rights" to justify their stance during the civil war era

369 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:41:47am

re: #365 Cato the Elder

English now has a complete set of all-purpose pronouns covering the masculine, feminine and neuter genders in easy-to-use single words!

nominative: sheit = she/he/it (pr. "sheet" or "shite" depending on how you feel about the person/thing)

possessive: hiserits = his/hers/its

objective: himerit = him/her/it

reflexive: himeritself = himself/herself/itself

I started introducing them the other day, as my contribution to gender-neutral speech. They are my creations, but I freely license their use by all. This post serves as my copyright notice.

Excellent choice. The double entendre of sheit and himerit is most helpful. "I can't sit doan at the moment, eh, as my himerits are killing me."

370 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:43:15am

re: #365 Cato the Elder

English now has a complete set of all-purpose pronouns covering the masculine, feminine and neuter genders in easy-to-use single words!

nominative: sheit = she/he/it (pr. "sheet" or "shite" depending on how you feel about the person/thing)

possessive: hiserits = his/hers/its

objective: himerit = him/her/it

reflexive: himeritself = himself/herself/itself

I started introducing them the other day, as my contribution to gender-neutral speech. They are my creations, but I freely license their use by all. This post serves as my copyright notice.

I think the first one will get you in trouble with the FCC if you use it on TV.

371 former_secret_agent  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:48:28am

I'm just an engineer, but it seems to me that creationists have a repulsive legal/education strategy. See, they insist no knowlege succeeds but accept dogma. If they succeed, terrible results undermine education. I don't understand why more people don't see this.

372 former_secret_agent  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 10:52:12am

Jeez... I'm too tired. I really messed up the grammar on that post. Sorry about that.

373 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:13:13am

re: #366 Liberally Conservative

Teach the controversy! (disclaimer: it's a store, but the pictures are hilarious)

Sweet.

Hard to pick a favorite, but I like the one of Satan burying fossils a lot.

374 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:13:52am

re: #305 Colin Nelson

Just to close this off - Locker's 116 was misleading (given my assumption) in that Locker must be aware of the world wide (minus the Muslim states) condemnation of the Goldstone report.

To (seemingly) innocently ask the question he did was clearly provocative and inflammatory given the subject at hand.

Locker is not quite the naif that his 116 pretends to be.

You really should check those assumptions. I don't know who Goldstone is, what the report is and asked as simple question about a timeframe report, for which I was labeled a Hamas Apologist.

End of story.

375 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:15:29am

Random music interval:

Youtube Video

O frabjous day, calloo, callay!

376 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:18:52am

re: #374 Locker

You really should check those assumptions. I don't know who Goldstone is, what the report is and asked as simple question about a timeframe report, for which I was labeled a Hamas Apologist.

End of story.

A (very few) people here enjoy calling others Hamas apologists with no evidence. I got labelled one as well in my first weeks here-- not even on a misreading of anything I'd said, but because some commenter somewhere in the blogosphere with the nic 'iceweasel' allegedly was.

(never mind that iceweasel is a simpsons reference, a browser, and the nic of at least 3 other people commenting in teh political blogosphere alone, and I'd previously said I've never used this nic anywhere else...and the idea that i would be a Hamas apologist is ludicrous anyway.)

Don't let the bastards grind you down. :)

377 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:20:22am

re: #367 aagcobb

You have to remember that a lot of science classes are taught by people like football coaches, because scientists can make a lot more money than public school teachers. Plenty of teachers would be happy to give their science students sunday school lessons instead.

Also, scientists and other highly trained, well educated professionals are actively kept out of the public schools. Because they don't possess teaching certificates. Which is entirely lame.

There is an enormous surplus of retired engineers, to take just one example, who would like nothing better than to donate their time teaching science and math to kids in their neighborhood public schools. Their educational expertise alone far exceeds anything that would be found among typical public school teachers, and their life experience in their fields is invaluable. Yet they are denied this opportunity because they haven't gone through the four mandatory years of indoctrination required to be a member of the teacher's union, and the thought that many of these folks might work for gratis is terrifying to the unions, perhaps more so than allowing actual practitioners in specialized fields access to the kids.

It's pathetic.

378 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:20:35am

re: #376 iceweasel

A (very few) people here enjoy calling others Hamas apologists with no evidence. I got labelled one as well in my first weeks here-- not even on a misreading of anything I'd said, but because some commenter somewhere in the blogosphere with the nic 'iceweasel' allegedly was.

(never mind that iceweasel is a simpsons reference, a browser, and the nic of at least 3 other people commenting in teh political blogosphere alone, and I'd previously said I've never used this nic anywhere else...and the idea that i would be a Hamas apologist is ludicrous anyway.)

Don't let the bastards grind you down. :)

Good looking out Ice.

379 Bagua  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:29:28am

I'm sure someone else must have noted above that in the post, Pawlenty is asked about creationism vs Evolution and he responds about ID. Isn't it one of their talking points that there is some sort of difference between the two?

380 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:29:33am

re: #357 John Neverbend

Those New Yorkers at LGF may remember that some years ago, during the month of December, the Helmsley Building which stands between Park Avenue and Park Avenue South and is visible anywhere from 46th to 97th street on Park displayed an enormous illuminated cross. They did this by making sure that certain offices left their lights on and the rest turned them off. I think the practice was discontinued, but I'm not sure if it was over religious objections.

Personally, I did not find this to be offensive, and it would have been an interesting experience driving into New York from the north, going down Park. There is a slight hill up to 97th street and then one would have looked down Park for the next 2.5 miles to this huge illuminated cross.

I think it's potentially offensive for that very reason (the bolded sentence). The Helmsley Building isn't a church or a religious organisation, and it was visible to people leaving the 96th street mosque as well as to everyone leaving Temple Emanu-el, the Park Ave Synagogue, and all the other synagogues in the vicinity. I don't recall off hand the other religious buildings that would have had an eye view of it, but there certainly are others.

381 mph  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:30:47am

I think Ben Stein's movie gave these freaks a lot of courage.

382 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:33:20am

re: #379 Bagua

I'm sure someone else must have noted above that in the post, Pawlenty is asked about creationism vs Evolution and he responds about ID. Isn't it one of their talking points that there is some sort of difference between the two?

Yes. ID is the intellectual figleaf designed to give cover to creationists. That's why he switched the conversation to ID -- but the very fact that he did so gives the lie to the notion that there is any difference between the two, or that ID isn't the Trojan Horse designed to sneak theology into science.

383 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:38:22am

re: #382 iceweasel

Yes. ID is the intellectual figleaf designed to give cover to creationists. That's why he switched the conversation to ID -- but the very fact that he did so gives the lie to the notion that there is any difference between the two, or that ID isn't the Trojan Horse designed to sneak theology into science.

This was wonderfully demonstrated by PBS during their special about the Dover trial. Revised versions of documentation in which earlier versions featured the word Creationism and later versions used Intelligent Design almost exactly as if someone did a find and replace.

384 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #375 iceweasel

Random music interval:


O frabjous day, calloo, callay!

Youtube Video

W00t!

385 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #383 Locker

This was wonderfully demonstrated by PBS during their special about the Dover trial. Revised versions of documentation in which earlier versions featured the word Creationism and later versions used Intelligent Design almost exactly as if someone did a find and replace.

Oh yes - "cdesign proponentsists"! A classic in the annals of failed cover-ups, that one.

386 Bagua  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 12:33:04pm

re: #382 iceweasel

Yes. ID is the intellectual figleaf designed to give cover to creationists. That's why he switched the conversation to ID -- but the very fact that he did so gives the lie to the notion that there is any difference between the two, or that ID isn't the Trojan Horse designed to sneak theology into science.

Yep, another positive data point!

387 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 12:48:26pm

re: #383 Locker

This was wonderfully demonstrated by PBS during their special about the Dover trial. Revised versions of documentation in which earlier versions featured the word Creationism and later versions used Intelligent Design almost exactly as if someone did a find and replace.

Oh yeah. I'll have to find that.

The Dover case was when I first started paying attention to the issue-- someone in Dover had a tiny blog which documented every single step of the creationist agenda, long before they even got to the trial.

388 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 12:59:29pm

re: #387 iceweasel

Google Video
here ya go.
389 Locker  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 2:05:09pm

re: #387 iceweasel

I've linked this before but just in case:

[Link:Nova - Intelligent Design On Trial ]

I believe the have the entire Dover program up for viewing on their website.

390 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 8, 2009 2:34:10pm

re: #380 iceweasel

I think it's potentially offensive for that very reason (the bolded sentence). The Helmsley Building isn't a church or a religious organisation, and it was visible to people leaving the 96th street mosque as well as to everyone leaving Temple Emanu-el, the Park Ave Synagogue, and all the other synagogues in the vicinity. I don't recall off hand the other religious buildings that would have had an eye view of it, but there certainly are others.

If it's privately owned, it's not a legal issue, and I can see big lighted crosses without undue stress.


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