Robert Stacy McCain and the Fall of the Conservative Movement

Here’s an excellent piece by Barrett Brown, on white supremacist blogger Robert Stacy McCain, and what it says about the right wing blogosphere that they’ve almost all lined up (including Pajamas Media, the company I helped found) to support a vile racist creep like this: Robert Stacy McCain and the Fall of the Conservative Movement.

Few would disagree that it’d be a fine thing for everyone involved in the national discourse to act in a manner that, if not necessarily pleasant or in accordance with anyone’s religious beliefs, abstains at least from goofy Internet threats. Let it be asserted and subsequently proven, then, that (a) Robert Stacy McCain has fallen short of the standard that I just sort of pulled out of thin air, that (b) he is nonetheless almost certainly a white supremacist, as has recently been alleged by the Charleston Gazette, that (c) he is perhaps the worst-behaved mainstream pundit in operation at this time, as evidenced by his threats towards the Gazette and his colorful comments regarding myself and an organization with which I serve, and that (d) the fact that this fellow has been successful within the confines of the modern conservative movement is as indicative as anything that the modern conservative movement operates under a more ridiculous totality of influence than even the sort of people who give you “365 Dumb Bush Quotes” calendars for your birthday would probably have guessed.

Read the whole thing…

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412 comments

1 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:55:59am

5:55 am in Calif…
“Auto Pilot”!
Or …Good morning Charles!

2 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:57:18am

Makes me thankful America is moving leftward for once. It’s time to leave a movement that has spewed hatred into mainstream American political discourse for the last two centuries on the fringe where it belongs.

3 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:02:53am

re: #2 laZardo

Makes me thankful America is moving leftward for once. It’s time to leave a movement that has spewed hatred into mainstream American political discourse for the last two centuries on the fringe where it belongs.

“Look at all the hate there is in Red China,
Then take a look around you boy, to Selma, Alabama…”
- Barry McGuire

4 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:05:51am

Funny how the rise of blogging itself maps so closely to the rise of right-wing nuttiness.

5 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:22:32am

So when does the fall of the conservative movement lead to the collapse of the GOP? As the largest vehicle for carrying the water principals of the movement, by observing their website they still seem to be in comedy business these days.

6 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:23:00am

Xenophobia and religion. The two most destructive forces in human history.

7 cliffster  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:26:34am

re: #2 laZardo

Makes me thankful America is moving leftward for once. It’s time to leave a movement that has spewed hatred into mainstream American political discourse for the last two centuries on the fringe where it belongs.

Abraham Lincoln.. what party was he in again? I forget

8 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:27:10am

re: #7 cliffster

The Republican party?

/I didn’t say this hatred was affiliated to one specific party.

9 Izzyboy  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:27:12am

Hay guiz, I herd that teh peess proses is moving right along

[Link: www.ynetnews.com…]

Also the UN fails (duh)

[Link: www.google.com…]

10 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:28:09am

re: #5 Surabaya Stew

We had an interesting discussion about this the other day. The collapse of GOP is a very scary concept as it effectively turns the country into a temporary one party state. This is very bad for democrats as well as republicans, nobody in their right mind wants this and I am sure this is actually the absolute worst nightmare of certain political strategists out there. Nothing good can come out of that in the short or medium term. Long term it may have positive effects. However, I remain somewhat hopeful that by 2020 a new, strong, tolerant and secular conservative movement has overtaken the current shrieking shriekers and their ilk.

11 cliffster  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:28:54am

Ideas stand above people and they stand above labels. The ideas of small, non-intrusive government, fiscal restraint, and people taking personal responsibility for themselves stand above the label of “conservatism”, and they certainly stand above people trying to hijack that label and twist it into something that has nothing to do with any of those ideals.

12 cliffster  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:31:11am

re: #8 laZardo

The Republican party?

/I didn’t say this hatred was affiliated to one specific party.

Fair enough, but the comment about “moving leftward” certainly implies that what was “on the right” has been about hatred for 2 centuries.

13 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:32:32am
14 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:34:36am

re: #11 cliffster

That, unfortunately, is the tragedy of current political discourse. The Democrats are still chained to some very longstanding political machines and the people who are calling loudest for those sort of things are the sort of people who should stay on the fringe. Perhaps there could be a new progressive party to take the charge when it comes to real reform.

re: #12
In a sense though, it has. In the early 1900s you had the Unions on the left with the factory owners on the right, and that was before there were concrete safety regulations in place. In the 50s and 60s you had Civil Rights on the left and States’ Rights “Dixiecrats” on the right.

Sadly it seems a lot of these organizations have lost track of their vision…

15 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:36:44am

re: #7 cliffster

Lincoln was in the Whigs.

16 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:38:05am

re: #13 Ojoe

We badly need a center party.

Not gonna happen. The people in the center care much less about politics than the people on the fringes. The fringes have the activists needed to run a party. No, parties will always need to have some appeal to the fringe, its just part of the way people are wired.

17 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:40:10am

re: #10 enoughalready

A party dedicated to the principles of free market economics, small government, and low taxes would go a long way in America. I think people are getting sick of big government but unfortunately only people like Glenn Beck are stepping up. What we need is a leader with a spine who will tell the creationists, dominionists, racists, intollerant homophobes and general miscreants where to shove their heads.

18 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:40:24am

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

The fringes, by their antics, may motivate the center ? They have motivated me.

19 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:40:59am

re: #18 Ojoe

The fringes, by their antics, may motivate the center ? They have motivated me.

They’ve motivated me to. Want to run for president?

20 Locker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:41:46am

I’ve considered myself a “member of the left” for my adult life. From this perspective it is puzzling that members of the right claim that the left is just as bad when it comes to hate, violence, etc.

This does not match my experience.

Hate is something that is to be avoided on the left. It happens but it’s not glorified, it’s not rewarded and it’s not encouraged as a quality to be admired.

My perspective of the right is the complete opposite. Since I am not an internal “member” this is just an outside perspective but none the less… the right has always seemed proud of hate. Fostering the idea that hating something is “taking a stand”. That wishing for the utter destruction of an enemy person or idea is considered proper and to be respected and rewarded.

What we are seeing now is just a difference of opinion on what is and is not OK to hate. While I do acknowledge that hate can give one feelings of control and empowerment, it normally does not lead to the results that person would desire or expect.

21 Univac  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:42:01am

One problem is the current understanding of compromise.

It seems as though “they” (anyone who is not you) think that compromise means meeting in the middle. If you start from a centrist point of view, meeting in the middle still leaves you in the fringe. However, insisting that a centrist approach is appropriate results in branding of intransigent or unwilling.

22 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:42:40am

re: #18 Ojoe

The fringes, by their antics, may motivate the center ? They have motivated me.

Maybe, but that motivation will fade. A better tactic than a third party would to use the center’s energy to reform one or both of the existing parties. I’ve got to go, but I’ll read any replies when I get home from work.

23 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:42:58am

re: #17 Jetpilot1101

A party dedicated to the principles of free market economics, small government, and low taxes would go a long way in America. I think people are getting sick of big government but unfortunately only people like Glenn Beck are stepping up. What we need is a leader with a spine who will tell the creationists, dominionists, racists, intollerant homophobes and general miscreants where to shove their heads.

From the archives of LGF: Bob Barr

24 cliffster  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:44:04am

re: #14 laZardo

Politicians use their position to build their power and their fortunes. They create bureaucracy that help their rich and powerful friends, but limits our freedom, to do so. And they force us to pay for all this by taxing us. I don’t believe that any of them at the national level have any “platform” at all, it’s just what do they need to do to keep their position so they can keep milking the system.

25 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:46:59am

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

OK but pulling the nutters out of any party involves a fight which reduces the effectiveness of the parting during, and gives more power to the other party & thus contributes to the swings between extremes.

If the nutters have a big grip it is a big problem.

26 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:47:11am

re: #24 cliffster

Exactly, which is why a new type of person going into politics is needed, or rather a sensible type of person that America hasn’t elected yet. Unfortunately that’s not going to happen in the long term without at least dismantling some of these political machines, probably at the city/state level.

And that’s not going to happen until people actually start paying attention to what happens at those levels.

27 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:48:06am

re: #17 Jetpilot1101

At the same time though I think the idea about small government needs revisiting. The world in the coming years is very different from what it was 100 years or even 50 years ago. The challenges are different and every country needs to figure out how best to meet the challenges ahead (climate change which is potentially catastrophic, energy crisis and a much faster rate of change than we have already seen). What kind of government does that require? Where does the country go?

28 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:49:23am

re: #27 enoughalready

I think “efficient” is the word they’re looking for when it comes to government more than “smaller.”

29 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:49:44am
30 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:50:56am

1st flounce of the day?

31 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:51:49am

re: #28 laZardo

One could argue that “efficient government” is a contradiction in terms. (I don’t, in fact I think that a modern and above all transparent government will be forced to be efficient)

32 Locker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:52:14am

51 comments since July 2006. Probably a socky-sock or just someone who’s dork factor is rising.

33 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:53:45am

re: #32 Locker

Well, I only have 300ish since 2005 (but mostly because I have a lot of other stuff to do so I only hang out here when I am sick haha, thank H1N1 for my current burst of activity)

34 cliffster  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:53:54am

re: #26 laZardo

And that’s not going to happen until people actually start paying attention to what happens at those levels.

And that’s not going to happen.

35 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:55:46am

re: #10 enoughalready

We had an interesting discussion about this the other day. The collapse of GOP is a very scary concept as it effectively turns the country into a temporary one party state. This is very bad for democrats as well as republicans, nobody in their right mind wants this and I am sure this is actually the absolute worst nightmare of certain political strategists out there. Nothing good can come out of that in the short or medium term. Long term it may have positive effects. However, I remain somewhat hopeful that by 2020 a new, strong, tolerant and secular conservative movement has overtaken the current shrieking shriekers and their ilk.

Thanks for pointing that LGF discussion out; must have missed it as my blog reading has been spotty this past week. Seems like you have summed up the feelings of many with this post though, as our political system is designed to work with a loyal opposition rather than a dishonest opposition.

36 Locker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:55:50am

re: #33 enoughalready

Well I’m also comfortable with option B so it’s cool. :-)

37 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:56:21am

re: #29 hailing frequencies open

You throw away the ability to be widely heard like this?

38 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:56:49am

re: #31 enoughalready

One could argue that “efficient government” is a contradiction in terms. (I don’t, in fact I think that a modern and above all transparent government will be forced to be efficient)

“Modern and transparent government” is already viewed by many as just as big a contradiction in terms as “efficient” government.”

39 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:56:54am

re: #36 Locker

You calling me a dork? ;)

40 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:57:07am

re: #34 cliffster

And that’s not going to happen.

Unfortunately.

41 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:57:35am

re: #38 laZardo

True, but generally because there isn’t one. Anywhere. Yet. So it’s an ideal (or an idea if you will).

42 Spider Mensch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:00:17am

re: #29 hailing frequencies open

who the fuck cares..is LGF your heroin and you can’t just stop coming here? are you a mentally unstable person? You can’t make your own choices? or are you the intellectual equivilant of an 8 year old? not enough attention from mommy and daddy when you were little, and you have to act all huffy when you read or hear something you disagree with?

This statement is not only for the above but for all the past and future flouncers…if you don’t like the opinions stated here..then go somwhere else…maybe get off the computer for awhile and take a walk or something..jebus this shit is getting annoying.

/rant off

43 Locker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:01:04am

re: #39 enoughalready

You calling me a dork? ;)

Only if ‘hailing frequencies open’ is your sock puppet.

Although I am available for private dances and would be happy to call you a dork like you’ve never been called a dork before… do you have Visa or Mastercard?

44 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:02:02am

re: #41 enoughalready

True, but generally because there isn’t one. Anywhere. Yet. So it’s an ideal (or an idea if you will).

Nothing wrong with having an ideal. At least by itself. :B

45 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:04:27am

re: #13 Ojoe

We badly need a center party.

Let us know when you fine a viable and stable one?

46 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:05:23am

“Efficient” as applied to government, has to do with being as small and unobtrusivbe as possible.

Putting up a traffic light at a busy intersection is not “government interference in free travel”, it is the act of establishing a simple regulatory system that allows the intersection to function to everyone’s benefit, not just those with the biggest SUV’s.

But Free Market ideologists saw any form of regulation as “government interference in free trade” and cut back on regulation to the point that we wound up with a system that worked only for those with the biggest banks.

That is higly inefficient.

47 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:05:49am

I weep for the party. Maybe if we’re lucky, the Modern Whig party can make some good headway, and provide us with candidates supporting conservative values without all the insanity.

48 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:05:51am

re: #31 enoughalready

One could argue that “efficient government” is a contradiction in terms. (I don’t, in fact I think that a modern and above all transparent government will be forced to be efficient)

When you find that “transparent” government, email me.

49 jdog29  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:06:07am

re: #29 hailing frequencies open

Is it just me or are the flouncers getting beyond pathetic. I want to hear how you’ve been done wrong and everyone is always attacking you… on second thought, no I don’t.

50 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:08:03am

Government can be made transparent if the political will exists. Most private enterprise cannot.

51 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:08:45am

Even then, the problem with McCain and those who have joined him in stripping the conservative movement bare of dignity is not one of racism, but of incompetence.


[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

did anyone read the article?

52 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:09:07am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

Join up, Walter, and help make it so.

Good morning to you.

BBL

53 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:09:26am

re: #26 laZardo

Exactly, which is why a new type of person going into politics is needed, or rather a sensible type of person that America hasn’t elected yet. Unfortunately that’s not going to happen in the long term without at least dismantling some of these political machines, probably at the city/state level.

And that’s not going to happen until people actually start paying attention to what happens at those levels.

More evidence suggesting you shouldn’t hold your breath.

54 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:13:43am

re: #53 Capitalist Tool

That brightened my day (per se, it’s 10:13 PM.)

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:13:54am

re: #52 Ojoe

Join up, Walter, and help make it so.

Good morning to you.

BBL

Not on a bet. The last time the Whig party started putting up candidates, we got Taylor/Fillmore, before that crazy George III. Looks like they are setting themselves up fro strike three.

Plutocracy and kleptocracy is the major problem in Washington, and there is nothing in your platform addressing that. The only way to address that is a total cleaning up of the system up there and the Whigs are not prepared to do that.

Quaint doesn’t equate to a strong political party.

56 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:14:51am

re: #50 ralphieboy

A million updings (or at least one which was what I could spare)

57 anno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:15:37am

Whigs? You talk about them like they’re a modern day party? Is there such thing again?

58 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:15:54am

re: #25 Ojoe

OK but pulling the nutters out of any party involves a fight which reduces the effectiveness of the parting during, and gives more power to the other party & thus contributes to the swings between extremes.

If the nutters have a big grip it is a big problem.

Your talking about the people who insist they lost the last election because McCain was a RINO and not “conservative” (Re: bigoted and religiously fanatical) enough. Until they get absolutely humiliated in an election while backing a candidate of their choice they are just going to keep on blaming everyone but themselves. Somehow contrary to all evidence they believe that if they can just get all the white evangelicals to vote as a block that they can win. Apparently they have not looked at any demographic polls since the 50s or something…

59 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:16:15am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Not on a bet. The last time the Whig party started putting up candidates, we got Taylor/Fillmore, before that crazy George III. Looks like they are setting themselves up fro strike three.

Plutocracy and kleptocracy is the major problem in Washington, and there is nothing in your platform addressing that. The only way to address that is a total cleaning up of the system up there and the Whigs are not prepared to do that.

Quaint doesn’t equate to a strong political party.

I beat them at their own game, like a dog

60 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:19:48am

re: #58 ausador

Your talking about the people who insist they lost the last election because McCain was a RINO and not “conservative” (Re: bigoted and religiously fanatical) enough. Until they get absolutely humiliated in an election while backing a candidate of their choice they are just going to keep on blaming everyone but themselves. Somehow contrary to all evidence they believe that if they can just get all the white evangelicals to vote as a block that they can win. Apparently they have not looked at any demographic polls since the 50s or something…

When has a politician or a political party ever blamed themselves in any meaningful way. You were being funny, right?

61 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:20:52am

re: #20 Locker


Hate is something that is to be avoided on the left. It happens but it’s not glorified, it’s not rewarded and it’s not encouraged as a quality to be admired.

This makes the iconography of Che Guevara, iner alia, puzzling, as it is decidedly a phenomenon of the cultural and political left. I note, similarly, that whereas folk such as, say, Robert DePugh, founder of the rightist criminal enterprise known as the Minutemen, ended his revolutionary career in prison, before moving solidly to the anti-semitic fringes of the Liberty Lobby, someone such as, say William Ayers or his lovely wife, Bernadine Dohrn, are, far from suffering the consequences of their leftist terrorism, actually basing the sum total of their entire “academic” careers on it. And there are, of course, many, many other examples of outright leftist terrorists lionized to this day among the political left in the united states. Trust me, homicidal rage in the cause of politics is not confined to any one end of the spectrum. Why do you see more of it now on the right than on the left? The Left is in power, and certain of their radicals need no longer plant dynamite bombs in police stations to “bring it all down”. They completed their march through the institutions, and so are now the caretakers and controllers of the very structures they sought to destroy. It’s a cycle.

I’d note, too, that the single largest concentration of support for an openly-planned genocide (the destruction of the state of Israel and her people) is to be found in the contemporary “anti-war” left. Passive-aggressive, we call that. And so, if, which the Lord forbid, Iran et al do incinerate an Israeli city, and Israel launches a counter-attack, I imagine the leftists holding candlelight vigils and other such displays will do so for the poor innocent Iranians.

62 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:22:45am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Not on a bet. The last time the Whig party started putting up candidates, we got Taylor/Fillmore, before that crazy George III. Looks like they are setting themselves up fro strike three.

Plutocracy and kleptocracy is the major problem in Washington, and there is nothing in your platform addressing that. The only way to address that is a total cleaning up of the system up there and the Whigs are not prepared to do that.

Quaint doesn’t equate to a strong political party.

I don’t believe the people involved in the Whig party at that time, are the same folks associated with the Modern Whigs (unless they’ve aged REALLY gracefully). When it’s obvious the current major parties aren’t prepared to clean up the system, maybe it’s time to start looking elsewhere.

63 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:23:54am

Maybe the media will lay off the tired (but richly gratifying) anti-Rush crusade and take up demonizing Robert Stacy McCain, who richly deserves to be driven far deeper into obscurity.

64 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:24:03am

re: #61 Guanxi88

This makes the iconography of Che Guevara, iner alia, puzzling, as it is decidedly a phenomenon of the cultural and political left. I note, similarly, that whereas folk such as, say, Robert DePugh, founder of the rightist criminal enterprise known as the Minutemen, ended his revolutionary career in prison, before moving solidly to the anti-semitic fringes of the Liberty Lobby, someone such as, say William Ayers or his lovely wife, Bernadine Dohrn, are, far from suffering the consequences of their leftist terrorism, actually basing the sum total of their entire “academic” careers on it. And there are, of course, many, many other examples of outright leftist terrorists lionized to this day among the political left in the united states. Trust me, homicidal rage in the cause of politics is not confined to any one end of the spectrum. Why do you see more of it now on the right than on the left? The Left is in power, and certain of their radicals need no longer plant dynamite bombs in police stations to “bring it all down”. They completed their march through the institutions, and so are now the caretakers and controllers of the very structures they sought to destroy. It’s a cycle.

I’d note, too, that the single largest concentration of support for an openly-planned genocide (the destruction of the state of Israel and her people) is to be found in the contemporary “anti-war” left. Passive-aggressive, we call that. And so, if, which the Lord forbid, Iran et al do incinerate an Israeli city, and Israel launches a counter-attack, I imagine the leftists holding candlelight vigils and other such displays will do so for the poor innocent Iranians.

re: #62 Yashmak

I don’t believe the people involved in the Whig party at that time, are the same folks associated with the Modern Whigs (unless they’ve aged REALLY gracefully). When it’s obvious the current major parties aren’t prepared to clean up the system, maybe it’s time to start looking elsewhere.

The modern Whig party certainly takes a lot of it’s platform from the older versions of the party.

Look up British Whigs, The American Whigs and the Modern Whig Party.

65 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:24:12am

re: #61 Guanxi88

nicely said…and the quote ate the top was laughable

66 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:24:18am

re: #57 anno

Whigs? You talk about them like they’re a modern day party? Is there such thing again?

Modern Whig Party

67 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:24:50am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

Cross posting against the wrong comment, my mistake.

68 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:25:26am

BBIAB - need a shave and some coffee.

69 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:26:14am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

The modern Whig party certainly takes a lot of it’s platform from the older versions of the party.

If you say so. But your criticism of the Whigs above was of their candidates, not their platform. Having read the Modern Whig platform, it seems to me they are largely interested in fiscal and foreign policy conservative values, without all the Soc-Con nonsense.

70 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:26:50am

Stacy would smart from that if Stacy had nerve endings.

71 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:27:48am

The Republicans know that they have a solid lock on some 30% of the voters, those who will tolerate or even applaud any sort of attack levelled at Obama, no matter how spurious or vitriolic.

But they are slow in learning that they are seriously putting off the middle-spectrum voters who might oppose Obama’s policies but do not see him as the Antichrist Manchurian Candidate Communo-Fascist Beast Granny Killer, etc, that he is being made out to be by the extremists.

72 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:32:00am

re: #71 ralphieboy

The Republicans know that they have a solid lock on some 30% of the voters, those who will tolerate or even applaud any sort of attack levelled at Obama, no matter how spurious or vitriolic.

But they are slow in learning that they are seriously putting off the middle-spectrum voters who might oppose Obama’s policies but do not see him as the Antichrist Manchurian Candidate Communo-Fascist Beast Granny Killer, etc, that he is being made out to be by the extremists.

why do you presume that?…have there been polls to show this?…I’d bet my bottom dollar that the vast majority of moderate conservatives never heard of RSM or probably even Ron Paul for that matter

73 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:34:39am

re: #63 SeaMonkey

Maybe the media will lay off the tired (but richly gratifying) anti-Rush crusade and take up demonizing Robert Stacy McCain, who richly deserves to be driven far deeper into obscurity.


Media dog trainers are too shrewd to shine a light on RSM et ilk at this time. They are waiting for the eventual chaotic violence to drive up ratings and line their pockets.

74 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:36:47am

re: #73 Capitalist Tool

Media dog trainers are too shrewd to shine a light on RSM et ilk at this time. They are waiting for the eventual chaotic violence to drive up ratings and line their pockets.

I would not expect chaotic violence, but the premise is exactly correct…the MSM influences what people think, not facts or knowledge

75 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:37:42am

re: #62 Yashmak

“I’m 37. I’m not old.”

— gratuitous Python reference.

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:38:17am

re: #72 albusteve

Most everyone has heard enough birther and death panel rants to get pretty fed up with it by now.

77 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:38:37am

re: #61 Guanxi88

The right is still angry at the left for the cultural upheaval 60s, apparently. Well, the 60s happened and look, we’re still all here. Che Guevara is completely irrelevant o the current political debate, as are the Weatherman, etc.

And your comments about the left and Israel are absurd and use hysterical, debate-deadening language (e.g. genocide.) All the Democrats in Washington are strong and vocal supporters of Israel.

78 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:40:05am

I don’t see a viable center party unless the MSM wants to admit one exists. They’re too tied to the Democrats right now, not that they’ve ever been good at covering a third party unless it is loony or has a lot of money, or both.

Now, if we had commentators who wanted to cover the Whigs, for example, they might become viable, but on both sides, they know they’ll get better ratings ranting.

This is not good for the country.

79 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:41:59am

re: #74 albusteve

I would not expect chaotic violence, but the premise is exactly correct…the MSM influences what people think, not facts or knowledge


One can only hope that your expectations are correct, but the haters are trawling for the bottom- feeders and they will eventually catch some real crazies convinced of the right- ness of their personal crusade. If past is prologue, expect some more Timothy McVeigh types to join the fray.

80 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:44:50am

CHE apparel translates to: “I may be stoopid, but I’m hip”

81 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:45:08am

re: #76 ralphieboy

Most everyone has heard enough birther and death panel rants to get pretty fed up with it by now.

maybe, but only if you follow the subjects close enough and I seriously doubt that most voters do…and of those that do many believe what they hear…the GOP is a mixed bag, hardly monolithic nor was it ever or will be…you are gonna have to live with what you have…the most anybody can do is hammer the extreme part of the party and hope for the best…which is exactly what CJ is doing

82 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:45:39am

re: #77 SeaMonkey

The right is still angry at the left for the cultural upheaval 60s, apparently. Well, the 60s happened and look, we’re still all here. Che Guevara is completely irrelevant o the current political debate, as are the Weatherman, etc.

And your comments about the left and Israel are absurd and use hysterical, debate-deadening language (e.g. genocide.) All the Democrats in Washington are strong and vocal supporters of Israel.

If all the Democrats are such strong supporters of Israel, how come they don’t all vote for Israel? Some are quite anti-Israel, and the further left they are, the more likely that is.

83 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:49:01am

re: #77 SeaMonkey

The right is still angry at the left for the cultural upheaval 60s, apparently. Well, the 60s happened and look, we’re still all here. Che Guevara is completely irrelevant o the current political debate, as are the Weatherman, etc.

And your comments about the left and Israel are absurd and use hysterical, debate-deadening language (e.g. genocide.) All the Democrats in Washington are strong and vocal supporters of Israel.

that’s absurd…all of any party do not support Isreal…and the most influention Dem, BO, is highly questionable…he certainly does not seem to “support Israel”…imo

84 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:50:38am

re: #78 Kosh’s Shadow

I don’t see a viable center party unless the MSM wants to admit one exists. They’re too tied to the Democrats right now, not that they’ve ever been good at covering a third party unless it is loony or has a lot of money, or both.

Now, if we had commentators who wanted to cover the Whigs, for example, they might become viable, but on both sides, they know they’ll get better ratings ranting.

This is not good for the country.

There has always been two sides to the independent party idea. One, is that you’re throwing your influence away by supporting them, as they simply don’t have enough support to make a difference. Two, is that if you follow that notion, no third party will EVER have the support necessary to make a difference.

Unfortunately, both are true to some degree. It’s an argument that goes back and forth within my mind…and although I am still registered Republican, I am leaning more and more towards throwing my support in with those who share my ideas, rather than continuing to adhere to a party that no longer represents me… I find I’d rather find myself supporting the right side of things, rather than simply the side that can win.

85 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:51:24am

re: #82 Kosh’s Shadow

If all the Democrats are such strong supporters of Israel, how come they don’t all vote for Israel? Some are quite anti-Israel, and the further left they are, the more likely that is.

How many billions of dollars in aide would the democratic congress need to pass before you’d say they supported Israel?

86 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:51:35am

Ehm… America already has a centrist party. It’s called the Democratic Party. What you don’t have is a leftist Party.

Compare the Dems with leftist parties around the globe and they come up as centrists at best.

87 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:53:57am

re: #2 laZardo

Makes me thankful America is moving leftward for once. It’s time to leave a movement that has spewed hatred into mainstream American political discourse for the last two centuries on the fringe where it belongs.

What in the world are you talking about?

88 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:54:05am

re: #77 SeaMonkey

The right is still angry at the left for the cultural upheaval 60s, apparently. Well, the 60s happened and look, we’re still all here. Che Guevara is completely irrelevant o the current political debate, as are the Weatherman, etc.

And your comments about the left and Israel are absurd and use hysterical, debate-deadening language (e.g. genocide.) All the Democrats in Washington are strong and vocal supporters of Israel.

Che Guevara is invoked precisely because that mass-murdering thug’s face is omnipresent as an icon of “progressive” adoration. Perhaps you hadn’t noticed it, but the iconography of this thug continues to enjoy a great deal of popularity, not least among the director the Houston chapter of the Obama campaign, who proudly displayed this murderous beast’s image on the office wall.

The Weathermen ARE relevant - Locker seemed to be under the misapprehension that hatred existed solely to the right of the political positions and attitudes staked out by him or her. Further, you’ll note that Locker indicated that hatred was approved on the right, even championed as a demonstration of authenticity, whereas the left, in his or her experience, undertook great efforts to end the hate. That the Weather Underground’s former leadership hold “respectable” positions as leftist academics, whereas former rightist terrorists are in obscurity, prison, or the grave (all excellent places for them), points up the overall success of the radical, bomb-planting left in remaking this society. You say there were changes in the 60’s - no, it was in the 70’s that this stuff got out of hand.

As for the “hysterical” comments about Israel and the probable reaction of the anti-war left to a strike on say, Tel Aviv, and their probable reaction to a counterstrike by Israel, I’ll just ask you to cast your mind back a few years. No tears for the Israeli civilians slaughtered by rocket fire, suicide bombings, random shootings by “militants” - flapping outrage for precision strikes by the IDF on known murderers; screams of “genocide” every time the Israeli government attempts to curtail the smuggling of weapons into Gaza; self-righteous leftists erecting “apartheid walls” in some sort of atheistic Passion Play of the suffering of the Palestinians, whose standard of living is certainly among the highest in the Arab world, and who could live in peace on their land tomorrow if their leadership stopped killing Israeli civilians.

Yeah, I’m the one who’s hysterical./

89 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:54:32am

re: #85 McSpiff

How many billions of dollars in aide would the democratic congress need to pass before you’d say they supported Israel?

The commentator said ALL Democratic congressmen supported Israel, not enough to pass aid, and aid that the Presidents ask for.
So my reply addressed that. Did ALL Democrats vote for those aid bills? And for all other pro-Israel resolutions?

90 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:54:35am

re: #84 Yashmak

The real problem with third party politics is that they really only try to go big. You really don’t hear about third parties in anything but presidential races. When was the last time you had a full slate of third party choices across the board in your local elections? In the House? In the Senate? If the libertarians wanted to make inroads, it would be helpful to see more (L)s next to names on ballots other than the top of the ticket.

91 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:55:31am

re: #85 McSpiff

How many billions of dollars in aide would the democratic congress need to pass before you’d say they supported Israel?

it’s not the money, it’s the influence…it’s non of BOs business where Israelis build their houses or what they do with their capital…and it’d be sweet if he would endorse airstrikes by the IAF against Iran, since he does not have the guts to do it himself..and quit giving money to the Palis

92 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:55:32am

re: #53 Capitalist Tool

I’d say we have a very sensible guy in the white house now.

Criticize him if you want, that’s a good thing, but the demonization of him that’s taking place for no reason precludes the development of this idealized rational actor you’re seeking.

93 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:55:45am

re: #86 mikhailtheplumber

Ehm… America already has a centrist party. It’s called the Democratic Party. What you don’t have is a leftist Party.

Compare the Dems with leftist parties around the globe and they come up as centrists at best.

Left does not carry the same meaning here as it does in many other countries. In many cases, that would be like comparing apples and oranges.

Try…

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

The Democrats are in no way centrist, both in general political ideology and in their opposition to conservative political ideology.

The whole nature of the terms represent two different sides, not middles.

94 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:56:28am

re: #90 ohpleaseno

The real problem with third party politics is that they really only try to go big. You really don’t hear about third parties in anything but presidential races. When was the last time you had a full slate of third party choices across the board in your local elections? In the House? In the Senate? If the libertarians wanted to make inroads, it would be helpful to see more (L)s next to names on ballots other than the top of the ticket.

A few years ago, a Libertarian, Carla Howell, ran in the Senate race against Kennedy and did better than the Republican. There were a lot of signs for her where I live, maybe because she thought everyone should have a gun, and there is a big gun store in the area.

95 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:57:35am

re: #88 Guanxi88

Which BHO campaign office had the poster of Che? One in Texas? Or, am I getting that confused with the Cuban flag?

96 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:57:49am

re: #95 MandyManners

Which BHO campaign office had the poster of Che? One in Texas? Or, am I getting that confused with the Cuban flag?

Houston, Texas.

97 akarra  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:59:09am

I’m just happy the article exists and will draw attention to Stacy McCain’s not-so-kind ways. One of the things I’ve felt the whole time while he was harassing Charles and Kejda Gjermani and a host of others wasn’t just “it’s awful he has defenders,” but “where’s the rest of the media to condemn this behavior and make it clear to a broader audience that what he’s doing is unacceptable?”

One of the reasons why I really don’t like Media Matters is because it treats media bias as a tit-for-tat game: sometimes conservatives win, sometimes liberals win. I think media bias - which is almost certainly Left-leaning - is far more destructive than that. It means that conservatives have no objective place to turn for self-critique. Everyone should know that racism is bad, period, end of conversation. But I’m pretty sure Stacy McCain is drawing a few defenders who really, passionately believe he’s been smeared, and only a general public disapproval will cause them to be ashamed.

98 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:59:28am

re: #95 MandyManners

Which BHO campaign office had the poster of Che? One in Texas? Or, am I getting that confused with the Cuban flag?

No, it was that woman in Houston that was a paid campaign worker, ran an office, had a Che poster, and she was also the same on promoting a phony doctor this pass summer at one of the Texas town hall meetings.

99 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:59:29am

Good morning, lizards.

100 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:01am
A political movement can survive the deserved enmity of a few ethnic groups; it cannot survive more than a couple guys running around threatening newspapermen to duels or whatever the fuck is going on these days.

Heh. Stacy, your move.

101 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:05am

re: #92 dugmartsch

I’d say we have a very sensible guy in the white house now.

Criticize him if you want, that’s a good thing, but the demonization of him that’s taking place for no reason precludes the development of this idealized rational actor you’re seeking.

may I suggest another point of view regarding BOs sensibilities?…
[Link: article.nationalreview.com…]

102 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:09am

re: #99 Irish Rose

MORNING IRISH!

/the din is a bit loud today

103 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:22am

re: #96 Guanxi88

Houston, Texas.

I was thinking Austin for the obvious reason.

104 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:54am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

No, it was that woman in Houston that was a paid campaign worker, ran an office, had a Che poster, and she was also the same on promoting a phony doctor this pass summer at one of the Texas town hall meetings.

Oh, yeah. That’s the one.

105 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:01:19am

re: #87 filetandrelease

What in the world are you talking about?

See #7/#8 and the conversation that sprouts from there.

106 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:01:29am

re: #103 MandyManners

I was thinking Austin for the obvious reason.

Well, in Austin, the Che posters come with the office space, same as light fixtures, switches, and locks for the doors. “Fittings and fixtures,” in the real estate parlance.

107 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:01:34am

re: #90 ohpleaseno

The real problem with third party politics is that they really only try to go big. You really don’t hear about third parties in anything but presidential races. When was the last time you had a full slate of third party choices across the board in your local elections? In the House? In the Senate? If the libertarians wanted to make inroads, it would be helpful to see more (L)s next to names on ballots other than the top of the ticket.

What would help the libertarians more, is if the candidates they did put forward didn’t bring so much crazy with them. No, not all of them do, but a good number. If that weren’t the case I’d pay a lot more attention to them.

108 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:02:26am

re: #100 Cato the Elder

Cato, did you move over the weekend?
A lot of people here were worried about you.

109 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:02:50am

re: #89 Kosh’s Shadow

The commentator said ALL Democratic congressmen supported Israel, not enough to pass aid, and aid that the Presidents ask for.
So my reply addressed that. Did ALL Democrats vote for those aid bills? And for all other pro-Israel resolutions?

I’m trying to figure that out now, the AIPAC page links to Hr. 3081 and says to thank your rep for voting for it, so I’m going to assume that this was a main support bill (link: [Link: www.aipac.org…] ), which shows 242 Democratic Yeas and 9 Nays, corresponding to 96% support. Thats in contrast to 76 Republican Yeas and 97 Nays, or 43% support. (link: [Link: clerk.house.gov…] ). This is after a two minute google search, so I could easily be wrong… But that looks like strong democratic support to me.

110 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:02:51am

I hate to keep pointing this out but the repeated calls of “the demise of the republican party” are a little premature. Right now they’re up 2 pts in the generic poll, they’re about to take the VA governors race, and they have a good shot at taking Jersey. If Corzine loses, the dems may as well count on big losses next year.

111 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:03:28am

re: #92 dugmartsch

I’d say we have a very sensible guy in the white house now.

Criticize him if you want, that’s a good thing, but the demonization of him that’s taking place for no reason precludes the development of this idealized rational actor you’re seeking.

Demonization… is that what you call political differences? Weasel word, has no real meaning in an intelligent conversation, hyperbole. But, I will admit that I notice just about ANY words of opposition to any thing on the left is usually shouted out as being rude, or seething, or raging, all more weasel words designed to shut down speech.

Caught you.

112 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:04:13am

re: #110 RogueOne

I hate to keep pointing this out but the repeated calls of “the demise of the republican party” are a little premature. Right now they’re up 2 pts in the generic poll, they’re about to take the VA governors race, and they have a good shot at taking Jersey. If Corzine loses, the dems may as well count on big losses next year.

the GOP is not going anywhere…speculation of its demise is ridiculous

113 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:04:57am

re: #108 Irish Rose

Cato, did you move over the weekend?
A lot of people here were worried about you.

Yes. Thanks, I’m fine.

114 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:05:13am

re: #106 Guanxi88

Well, in Austin, the Che posters come with the office space, same as light fixtures, switches, and locks for the doors. “Fittings and fixtures,” in the real estate parlance.

No fridges?

115 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:05:39am

re: #113 Cato the Elder

Yes. Thanks, I’m fine.

have been molested by a moose yet?

116 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:06:02am

re: #112 albusteve

the GOP is not going anywhere…speculation of its demise is ridiculous exaggerated.

/gratuitous Alan Moore moment

117 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:06:17am

re: #88 Guanxi88

Yes, the Che image is prevalent in Latino communities. Let’s not pretend everything is hunky-dory re: US-Latin American relations. There is a reason for this anger. Very few people except some fringe guerrillas thousand of miles south of Texas are being killed for it.

The Weathermen were in jail or on the lam for twenty years. I’m not interested in defending them, but continually railing them against them is a straw man argument.

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.

The original point was that the current right is trading more in hate, specifically in this case, racism, than the current left. Your torrent of outrage does nothing to contradict this.

118 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:06:21am

re: #115 albusteve

have been molested by a moose yet?

No, but the Elks look threatening.

119 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:07:22am

re: #109 McSpiff

I’m trying to figure that out now, the AIPAC page links to Hr. 3081 and says to thank your rep for voting for it, so I’m going to assume that this was a main support bill (link: [Link: www.aipac.org…] ), which shows 242 Democratic Yeas and 9 Nays, corresponding to 96% support. Thats in contrast to 76 Republican Yeas and 97 Nays, or 43% support. (link: [Link: clerk.house.gov…] ). This is after a two minute google search, so I could easily be wrong… But that looks like strong democratic support to me.

The Israeli support provisions in the the bill were part of a larger bill; GOP reaction to it may have been based in part on unsavory measures in the bill; funds to Israel were a small part of the overall foreign aid package, and could not have been the deciding factor.

120 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:07:24am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Demonization… is that what you call political differences? Weasel word, has no real meaning in an intelligent conversation, hyperbole. But, I will admit that I notice just about ANY words of opposition to any thing on the left is usually shouted out as being rude, or seething, or raging, all more weasel words designed to shut down speech.

Caught you.

Caught him what? Half the crap thrown at him is ridiculous. Czars, death panels, killing grandma, olympics, peace prize, birthers and on and on. Criticize him on something he deserves and I would agree that it is criticism. Bring up this crap and you have demonization.

Caught him… :rollseyes:

121 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:07:41am

re: #58 ausador

Your talking about the people who insist they lost the last election because McCain was a RINO and not “conservative” (Re: bigoted and religiously fanatical) enough. Until they get absolutely humiliated in an election while backing a candidate of their choice they are just going to keep on blaming everyone but themselves. Somehow contrary to all evidence they believe that if they can just get all the white evangelicals to vote as a block that they can win. Apparently they have not looked at any demographic polls since the 50s or something…

As a conservative who held his nose and voted for McCain I find your comment way off mark. First, conservatives hardly have a monopoly on bigotry. Second, there are substantive reasons why I and many conservatives did not have McCain as our first choice. Immigration reform comes to mind. Thirdly, if you check, you will find there have been a few Republican presidents over the last 50 years.

122 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:08:23am

re: #117 SeaMonkey

Yes, the Che image is prevalent in Latino communities. Let’s not pretend everything is hunky-dory re: US-Latin American relations. There is a reason for this anger. Very few people except some fringe guerrillas thousand of miles south of Texas are being killed for it.

The Weathermen were in jail or on the lam for twenty years. I’m not interested in defending them, but continually railing them against them is a straw man argument.

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.

The original point was that the current right is trading more in hate, specifically in this case, racism, than the current left. Your torrent of outrage does nothing to contradict this.

Che goes well beyond Hsipanic issues—he’s a tool of the LEFT in any country.

As for th WU, what about Ayers? He’s on the lam or in prison? I’ve a link somewhere to where many are now.

123 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:09:33am

re: #122 MandyManners

I find humorous irony in that Ché’s image sells along with how people like to stick their faces in place of his in their own parodies.

124 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:10:03am

re: #119 Guanxi88

The Israeli support provisions in the the bill were part of a larger bill; GOP reaction to it may have been based in part on unsavory measures in the bill; funds to Israel were a small part of the overall foreign aid package, and could not have been the deciding factor.

Fair enough.I’m not trying to argue the GOP doesn’t support Israel, that would be crazy. My main point was responding to Kosh’s charge that not all democrats vote to support Israel. In this case, 96% of democrats voted to support the $2.2 billion in aide in the (I’m assuming) democrat authored bill. Sure, thats not *every* democrat, but it’s pretty damn close.

125 Cato the Elder  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:10:12am

I notice the acronym FCBBHO has disappeared around here. That’s a good thing.

126 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:10:26am

re: #118 Cato the Elder

No, but the Elks look threatening.

just be sure to wear your antler cap when you’re out and about

127 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:10:45am

re: #121 filetandrelease

First, conservatives hardly have a monopoly on bigotry.

Apparently you missed the memo where the conversation had turned into a ‘who is MORE bigoted’ contest.

128 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:13:08am

re: #109 McSpiff

I’m trying to figure that out now, the AIPAC page links to Hr. 3081 and says to thank your rep for voting for it, so I’m going to assume that this was a main support bill (link: [Link: www.aipac.org…] ), which shows 242 Democratic Yeas and 9 Nays, corresponding to 96% support. Thats in contrast to 76 Republican Yeas and 97 Nays, or 43% support. (link: [Link: clerk.house.gov…] ). This is after a two minute google search, so I could easily be wrong… But that looks like strong democratic support to me.

3081 was a general bill “Making appropriations for the Department of State, foreign operations, and related programs for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2010, and for other purposes”
The vote on that probably was only slightly affected by amounts for Israel.

129 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:14:45am

re: #105 laZardo

See #7/#8 and the conversation that sprouts from there.

I guess I just disagree with the premise in general that there has been a movement that has instilled hatred into American Politics. Politics around the world and through out history has always been a nasty business. If anything, I would argue that in the U.S. we are a bit more civilized about it.

130 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:16:00am

re: #128 Kosh’s Shadow

3081 was a general bill “Making appropriations for the Department of State, foreign operations, and related programs for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2010, and for other purposes”
The vote on that probably was only slightly affected by amounts for Israel.

So? The Democrats included $2.2 billion for Israel in that bill and then overwhelmingly voted to support it. I’m not sure how you can spin that as anything other than clear Democratic support for Israel. If they didn’t want to support Israel, why include them in the bill?

131 filetandrelease  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:16:28am

re: #127 Yashmak

Apparently you missed the memo where the conversation had turned into a ‘who is MORE bigoted’ contest.

Now that is something I would not want to be responsible to quantify.

132 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:16:45am

There actually is a good argument to be made that the iconic Obama image by whoever plays off the Che image. I forget the artist’s name.

133 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:17:09am

re: #120 ohpleaseno

Caught him what? Half the crap thrown at him is ridiculous. Czars, death panels, killing grandma, olympics, peace prize, birthers and on and on. Criticize him on something he deserves and I would agree that it is criticism. Bring up this crap and you have demonization.

Caught him… :rollseyes:

Whether you like it or not, it’s called POLITICS and has been this way for hundreds of years. Do you think that strong-arming political opinions is anything new? My goodness, what thin-skinned intellects we have now a days. Four hundred years ago, they called it Political Malice. Very popular activity. Very common.

Caught him trying to use weasel words that have nothing to do with the debate except to try to shut down speech.

You look silly when you roll your eyes :)

134 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:17:32am

re: #92 dugmartsch

I’d say we have a very sensible guy in the white house now.

Criticize him if you want, that’s a good thing, but the demonization of him that’s taking place for no reason precludes the development of this idealized rational actor you’re seeking.


That would be an amazing riff were it not so trite.

135 tradewind  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:17:33am

Since Huffpo’s being quoted, this one’s priceless:

Being Greek, I’m partial to Biden’s classic use of the Socratic method

…just shoot me now.
Read more at: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

136 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:19:04am

re: #117 SeaMonkey

Yes, the Che image is prevalent in Latino communities. Let’s not pretend everything is hunky-dory re: US-Latin American relations. There is a reason for this anger. Very few people except some fringe guerrillas thousand of miles south of Texas are being killed for it.

The Weathermen were in jail or on the lam for twenty years. I’m not interested in defending them, but continually railing them against them is a straw man argument.

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.

The original point was that the current right is trading more in hate, specifically in this case, racism, than the current left. Your torrent of outrage does nothing to contradict this.

Oh! The Che iconography is a Latino phenomenon; funny, I hadn’t seen it that way, noticing instead the popularity of it among the anti-war progressives, but, just as you say.

The Weather Underground leadership don’t need you to defend them - they’ve got tenure, speaking engagements, and a good friend in a very high place. They’ll do just fine without your support, even as they’ll get along just fine without mine. As to their being strawmen - well, if they didn’t exist, you might have a point, but they do, and so you don’t.

As for the torrent of hatred from the right, my original post pointed out the greater likelihood of violence from the right these days. They’re outta power, after all, and a radical out of power can be a spiteful POS. (See the Weather Strawmen, above)

The anti-war left ARE supporting genocide against Israel; if the anti-war left back the Palestinians (and clearly, they do), whose leadership has as their stated goal the destruction of Israel, and whose religious leadership have the genocide of the Jews as an element of their eschatology to be effected by any and all means available, then yeah, that behavior is objectively in support of genocide. The shrieking outrage with which the international anti-war left greeted the IDF operations in Gaza proved them to be on the side of Hamas.

We can expect a similar reaction should Iran or some other regional enemy decide to burn Tel Aviv to ashes. I guaran-damn-tee you that the outrage and horror on the left will be for the poor Iranians killed in the counter-strike.

I hope I never have the opportunity to say “I told you so.”

137 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:20:07am

re: #132 SeaMonkey

There actually is a good argument to be made that the iconic Obama image by whoever plays off the Che image. I forget the artist’s name.

Gee, why would they want to associate him with Che?

138 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:20:55am

re: #136 Guanxi88

Wright and Ayers in Chicago on justice in the Middle East.

[Link: www.chicagotribune.com…]

139 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:21:48am

re: #130 McSpiff

So? The Democrats included $2.2 billion for Israel in that bill and then overwhelmingly voted to support it. I’m not sure how you can spin that as anything other than clear Democratic support for Israel. If they didn’t want to support Israel, why include them in the bill?

1) I didn’t say the democrats were against Israel, just that ALL of them are not supporters
2) The bill contained too much to be an example of how much support there is for Israel in the different parties.
Just because Congress passes the budget doesn’t mean that they all wanted everything in it; it means they found it a good compromise.

140 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:21:49am

re: #137 Guanxi88

Do you think it was deliberate? Shepard Fairey is the guy’s name. I looked it up. He got sued by the AP over the image, apparently.

141 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:22:13am

Capitalist opportunities for just- over- the- CA- border TV stores and trailer rentals

142 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:22:15am

re: #101 albusteve

may I suggest another point of view regarding BOs sensibilities?…
[Link: article.nationalreview.com…]

From the article:
“The president’s reform plan has been seen by almost everyone to be bunk, and hackneyed bunk at that.”

This is not the kind of argument that gets you cred in my book of sensible people.

143 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:22:30am

re: #134 Capitalist Tool

That would be an amazing riff were it not so trite.

‘cash for clunkers’ epitomizes BOs ascension to the POTUS imo

144 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:22:42am

re: #132 SeaMonkey

There actually is a good argument to be made that the iconic Obama image by whoever plays off the Che image. I forget the artist’s name.

re: #137 Guanxi88

Gee, why would they want to associate him with Che?

Think they were trying to tap into the outrage of Latinos here in the states at the injustices and oppression of the US in this hemisphere, or was it because Che is an AUTHENTIC CULTURAL ICON of the left? I’m betting the latter.

145 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:23:26am

Hi all.
The real numbers behind the Baucus bill.

The CBO estimates that the bill will reduce the deficit by $81 billion over the next decade, and even more beyond that. But that’s assuming Congress will make good on its threat to cut Medicare by hundreds of billions of dollars.

Even the CBO does not believe that.

A careful reading of the evidence suggests that the Baucus bill will add as much as $376 billion to the federal deficit through 2019. And that figure understates the full impact of the bill on the budget. If the big-spending parts of the proposal started next year rather than in 2014, the fiscal damage would be much greater.

rtwt…

146 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:23:34am

re: #129 filetandrelease

I guess I just disagree with the premise in general that there has been a movement that has instilled hatred into American Politics. Politics around the world and through out history has always been a nasty business. If anything, I would argue that in the U.S. we are a bit more civilized about it.

True that. Perhaps that these people would be on the “reactionary” (to pick a word) end of the political spectrum, they have actually resisted sociopolitical progress at certain points so violently that their efforts have stained the system with sheer hatred that is considered increasingly vile every time it happens.

147 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:23:37am

LGF links to Ayers and BHO.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

148 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:23:52am

re: #140 SeaMonkey

Do you think it was deliberate? Shepard Fairey is the guy’s name. I looked it up. He got sued by the AP over the image, apparently.

No, it was probably accidental. Purely coincidental that this guy would decide to portray Obama using Che iconography. Had to be. /

149 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:24:22am
150 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:24:52am

re: #141 Capitalist Tool

Capitalist opportunities for just- over- the- CA- border TV stores and trailer rentals

Trailer for sale or rent
Rooms to let, 50 cents
No phone, no pool, no pets
I ain’t got no cigarettes

151 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:24:55am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Whether you like it or not, it’s called POLITICS and has been this way for hundreds of years. Do you think that strong-arming political opinions is anything new? My goodness, what thin-skinned intellects we have now a days. Four hundred years ago, they called it Political Malice. Very popular activity. Very common.

Caught him trying to use weasel words that have nothing to do with the debate except to try to shut down speech.

You look silly when you roll your eyes :)

IMO, the level of idiotic crap-slinging at this adminstration is of a much higher volume than in adminstrations past with the only intent to demonize Obama. I would even hold it up higher than Clinton and Bush II.

Politics would be politicians making this crap up, but instead it is all kinds of media and other actors participating in this mendacity.

:rollseyes and kicks them down the hill: :)

152 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:25:05am
153 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:25:41am

re: #142 dugmartsch

From the article:
“The president’s reform plan has been seen by almost everyone to be bunk, and hackneyed bunk at that.”

This is not the kind of argument that gets you cred in my book of sensible people.

it is bunk…it missed the mark on unemplyment by over two points so far…only around 20% of the money has been spent, and there is no oversight for even that…the bailout has been an abject failure

154 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:26:20am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Caught me doing what? Calling out the apoplexy that has haunted this administration before it even got going? When a decent part of your base questions the citizenship credentials of the POTUS there is a demonization problem.

155 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:26:54am

re: #153 albusteve

You realize the article was about health care, right?

156 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:08am

re: #145 FrogMarch

Hi all.
The real numbers behind the Baucus bill.

rtwt…

and it got torpedoed by 27 unions…Baucus is going nowhere

157 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:09am

Forget he was terrorist for a moment. Bill Ayers’ Annenberg Challenge provided Barack Obama with sole executive experience before heading his own presidential campaign and his most extensive venture into educational reform. Sol Stern tells us something about Ayers as a school reformer:

Calling Bill Ayers a school reformer is a bit like calling Joseph Stalin an agricultural reformer. . . For instance, at a November 2006 education forum in Caracas, Venezuela, with President Hugo Chávez at his side, Ayers proclaimed his support for “the profound educational reforms under way here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chávez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution… . I look forward to seeing how you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane.” Ayers concluded his speech by declaring that “Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education—a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation,” and then, as in days of old, raised his fist and chanted: “Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana! Hasta la Victoria Siempre!”

Ayers’s school reform agenda focuses almost exclusively on the idea of teaching for “social justice” in the classroom. This has nothing to do with the social-justice ideals of the Sermon on the Mount or Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech. Rather, Ayers and his education school comrades are explicit about the need to indoctrinate public school children with the belief that America is a racist, militarist country and that the capitalist system is inherently unfair and oppressive

SNIP

158 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:24am

re: #136 Guanxi88

Get that person a beer (or 12)!

159 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:29am

re: #117 SeaMonkey

Yes, the Che image is prevalent in Latino communities. Let’s not pretend everything is hunky-dory re: US-Latin American relations. There is a reason for this anger. Very few people except some fringe guerrillas thousand of miles south of Texas are being killed for it.

The Weathermen were in jail or on the lam for twenty years. I’m not interested in defending them, but continually railing them against them is a straw man argument.

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.

The original point was that the current right is trading more in hate, specifically in this case, racism, than the current left. Your torrent of outrage does nothing to contradict this.

One of the problems with this argument is that it is advanced as proof of racial hatred, whenever anybody lets on that they know about the differences by race that show up on standardized test scores. Is it anti-white hatred to even be aware of the fact that Asians score better on math on the SAT than whites? That Jews score better in all categories than do Anglos? That these kinds of tests are valid predictors of cognitive prowess at real-world tasks, and are successfully used by the armed forces to estimate who can be trained how fast at which tasks?

As to Israel, if Iran obtains nuclear weapons, and uses a number of them on Israel, causing massive loss of life, what else would the term for that be, but genocide? And unfortunately, looking at the talk coming out of Iran and looking at the deeds evident in new facts on the ground: construction of enrichment facilities meant to be secret, tests of missiles, and so forth, all this is consistent with the intention to do just that. It’s consistent with other intentions; we don’t know for sure that Iran will do this given the chance. But there are real grounds for concern. Far too few people took the hyperbolic and incendiary rhetoric of Mein Kampf seriously. But in the event, it turned out that Hitler’s bite was even worse than his bark.

160 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:38am

re: #151 ohpleaseno

IMO, the level of idiotic crap-slinging at this adminstration is of a much higher volume than in adminstrations past with the only intent to demonize Obama. I would even hold it up higher than Clinton and Bush II.

Politics would be politicians making this crap up, but instead it is all kinds of media and other actors participating in this mendacity.

:rollseyes and kicks them down the hill: :)


In my opinion, you haven’t been paying attention.

161 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:27:51am

re: #144 Guanxi88

Think they were trying to tap into the outrage of Latinos here in the states at the injustices and oppression of the US in this hemisphere, or was it because Che is an AUTHENTIC CULTURAL ICON of the left? I’m betting the latter.

I think it’s fair to say tha the Left in the US plays with fire sometimes in recalling the 60s. But I think is implicit (as in the Che/Obama iconography) whereas the racism in the current political climate (used by Hillary as well, let’s remember) is fairly explicit.

The Weathermen, give me a break. This is so tired. Are we going to argue about Westmoreland next? His strategy was about as groundbreaking as Douglas Haig’s.

162 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:28:11am

re: #155 dugmartsch

You realize the article was about health care, right?

you didn’t read it obviously

163 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:28:50am

re: #160 Capitalist Tool

In my opinion, you haven’t been paying attention.

Yeah, that’s it…

164 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:28:57am

re: #162 albusteve

you didn’t read it obviously

The section the quote came from, sorry sloppy typing.

165 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:29:08am

Prairie Fire.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

166 irish rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:29:37am

Frank Schaeffer is big in the news today.

167 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:30:53am

Aeyrs and Che.

168 Jimmah  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:31:44am

From Harry’s Place:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org…]

Richard Bartholomew notes on his blog that a Conference will be held in Brighton next month to discuss:

“Europe between America and China and the struggle in Europe between the streams of Freemasonry, Jesuitism and the Rose Cross… The impulse of 666 and 1998; the Etheric Christ Event”

The keynote speakers are our own LibDem MP Norman Baker and US Green Party leader, Cynthia McKinney.

Baker peddles his book, The Strange Death of David Kelly, around various Indymedia-style conferences and had it serialised in The Daily Mail.

Andy Newman delivered the bad news about the sanity of the Green Party’s McKinney on the Socialist Unity blog back in October 2008. Surprisingly, that didn’t stop his co-blogger Derek Wall endorsing her a month later. Of course, the signs were always there. A year before, former congresswoman Cynthia Mckinney had been in London as a guest of the 9/11 Truth Campaign in Britain and Ireland.

And now she’ll be back, in Brighton, with Norman Baker MP, sharing a stage with other loons who babble on about “the Etheric Christ Event” (can you be bothered to google that? I can’t!) and - predictably - “the New World Order”. (Note: Jews and Jesuits should avoid looking too ‘knowing’ if they’re stuck in Brighton in the second week of November).

Though, it may we worth going for the presentation by Dr Mae-Wan Ho, author of a book entitled intriguingly ”The Physics of Orgasms“. Oh. No. That’s not right. Damn.

169 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:32:44am

re: #139 Kosh’s Shadow

1) I didn’t say the democrats were against Israel, just that ALL of them are not supporters
2) The bill contained too much to be an example of how much support there is for Israel in the different parties.
Just because Congress passes the budget doesn’t mean that they all wanted everything in it; it means they found it a good compromise.

1) And I’m sure that not every member of the GOP does either.
2) Find a better example then? I’ve shown that effectively every democrat in congress voted for Israeli aide. If you can find a more important vote, I’ll look at that.

170 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:32:58am

re: #151 ohpleaseno

IMO, the level of idiotic crap-slinging at this adminstration is of a much higher volume than in adminstrations past with the only intent to demonize Obama. I would even hold it up higher than Clinton and Bush II.

Politics would be politicians making this crap up, but instead it is all kinds of media and other actors participating in this mendacity.

:rollseyes and kicks them down the hill: :)

It doesn’t matter. It’s political opposition. Don’t tell me you would hold it up higher than Clinton and Bush unless you have statistic, proof, polls, something to back up your statement.

And yes, there is some really nasty talk going on out there, and I mean racist and some dangerous. But, you take that vile rhetoric, give me a laundry list of things that the right is talking out against (“Czars, death panels, killing grandma, olympics, peace prize, birthers and on and on”) and lump it all into a “demonizing” category, and you come across as trying to shut down all political opposition and speech.

You said “on and on,” which is a clever way of saying “all the other speech.”

Doesn’t work.

171 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:33:53am

re: #163 ohpleaseno

Yeah, that’s it…


If we start to see artistic and entertainment media lusting for the demise of present POTUS as we saw during the previous administration…

172 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:36:42am

Ayers has no regrets for his actions. Check out the photograph.

[Link: www.chicagomag.com…]

173 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:38:44am

re: #161 SeaMonkey

I think it’s fair to say tha the Left in the US plays with fire sometimes in recalling the 60s. But I think is implicit (as in the Che/Obama iconography) whereas the racism in the current political climate (used by Hillary as well, let’s remember) is fairly explicit.

The Weathermen, give me a break. This is so tired. Are we going to argue about Westmoreland next? His strategy was about as groundbreaking as Douglas Haig’s.

Plays with fire. Maybe Prairie Fire is what they’re playing with.

And you’ll get a break from the Weathermen when they’re good and ready to give you one. Until then, you’ll have to hear about their heroic struggles from within the belly of the beast against the racist, imperialist war-machine that is Amerika.

We could argue about Westmoreland if he was still around, still shooting his fool mouth off about the great things he did to make the world a better place.

174 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:39:04am

more trouble for BO…uncle Joe wants to run the war!…he has vast geopolitical experience (he says)

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

175 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:39:54am

1975 was not in the 1960s.

[Link: www.diyzine.com…]

176 Capitalist Tool  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:40:52am

re: #175 MandyManners

lmao

177 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:41:12am

re: #171 Capitalist Tool

If we start to see artistic and entertainment media lusting for the demise of present POTUS as we saw during the previous administration…

just because the celebrities this time around aren’t as luminous…

178 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:41:23am

re: #117 SeaMonkey

Yes, the Che image is prevalent in Latino communities. Let’s not pretend everything is hunky-dory re: US-Latin American relations. There is a reason for this anger. Very few people except some fringe guerrillas thousand of miles south of Texas are being killed for it.

I attribute this iconography to simple lack of education. All they see is a Latin man who was instrumental in a rebellion. It makes one wonder whether or not they know that he was a murdering son of a bitch and sociopath. I’d wager that the answer is no, but this is also an unfortunate byproduct of the hive mind. People inherently enjoy picking a face to go along with their rebellion du jour.

The Weathermen were in jail or on the lam for twenty years. I’m not interested in defending them, but continually railing them against them is a straw man argument.

Well knowing that some of them walked on a technicality, are unrepentant and practically brag about being involved with the deaths of people (including policemen) I’d say this is one hell of a topic to rail about. And like Che, these bastards are becoming a part of the college campus left rebellion iconography. Would you consider this to be healthy open-mindedness? I don’t mind people railing against our country/system but when it’s people like Ayers or his bitch Dorn leading the chants – I wouldn’t want those un-flushed turds getting into my son’s mind.

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.

Of course not all of them support genocide against Israel, but I have known and worked with some that would advocate this and they did so quite vocally, even in the workplace. When I worked network operations for Earthlink I worked with a couple of cats who openly stated that if Israel were nuked many of the Middle East’s problems would go away. And more recently when I did some work for Cox Communications I worked with several people who echoed this sentiment.

I am a punk guitarist who plays shows – you oughtta see some of the hateful bile that some of these bands spew, especially after some liquid courage. And the crowd waves their fists ever so obediently. Leni Riefenstahl would be so proud.

179 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:43:38am

re: #178 Equable

I am a punk guitarist who plays shows – you oughtta see some of the hateful bile that some of these bands spew, especially after some liquid courage. And the crowd waves their fists ever so obediently. Leni Riefenstahl would be so proud.

A pro-Israel punk rocker? HERESY!

/// :B

180 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:43:43am

re: #173 Guanxi88

Plays with fire. Maybe Prairie Fire is what they’re playing with.

And you’ll get a break from the Weathermen when they’re good and ready to give you one. Until then, you’ll have to hear about their heroic struggles from within the belly of the beast against the racist, imperialist war-machine that is Amerika.

Well I’m sure Billy and Bernie must have recanted and renounced their good works by now, so at least that’s settled, right?

181 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:44:26am

re: #179 laZardo

A pro-Israel punk rocker? HERESY!

/// :B

Kind of weird, no? You should see how people react to me when I am hanging out after shows shooting the bull.

182 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:44:26am

re: #176 Capitalist Tool

lmao

I suppose it’s nicer to laugh your ass off than to get it blown off by Ayers’ buddies.

183 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:44:50am

re: #178 Equable

Are you with Arctic Zionist Monkeys?

184 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:45:17am

re: #181 Equable

“I’m so non-conformist, I won’t conform to any of you!”

/South Park wisdom

185 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:45:32am

re: #182 MandyManners

I suppose it’s nicer to laugh your ass off than to get it blown off by Ayers’ buddies.

Maybe if it was one of his female buddies?

186 Jimmah  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:45:32am

Some good news on the (ludicrous and shameful) Simon Singh case:

Science writer Simon Singh wins ruling in chiropractic libel battle

A science writer who is being sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association is to fight on after a preliminary judgment against him was overturned on appeal today.

Simon Singh was sued by the BCA after he wrote an article in the Guardian criticising the association for supporting members who claim that chiropractic treatments – which involve manipulation of the spine – can treat children’s colic, sleeping and feeding problems, frequent ear infections, asthma and prolonged crying.

continued:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk…]

187 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:46:21am

re: #180 Pianobuff

Well I’m sure Billy and Bernie must have recanted and renounced their good works by now, so at least that’s settled, right?

Ayers a la Gramsci is spreading his radical, Left agenda in the public school sytems. My link is somewhere above.

188 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:47:04am

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

Naah, I am with a local band (Southern California) who plays local shows here.

189 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:47:38am

re: #178 Equable

+1 just for playing punk

190 bosforus  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:14am

re: #117 SeaMonkey

And to use the word “genocide” re: Israel relating to US liberals — please. This is insanely hyperbolic.


[Link: www.google.com…]
Then perhaps you can explain these google search results for “2006 israel lebanon genocide”.

191 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:20am

re: #187 MandyManners

Ayers a la Gramsci is spreading his radical, Left agenda in the public school sytems. My link is somewhere above.

and knocking down big money…the whole scheme really bites

192 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:25am

re: #184 laZardo

“I’m so non-conformist, I won’t conform to any of you!”

/South Park wisdom

HAHA man it’s so funny - I know so many people who bust their butts to be an individual (stick out in a crowd, more or less) that they don’t realize that they’re practically wearing uniforms.

193 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:30am

re: #173 Guanxi88

Is the argument that Bill Ayers does not regret his crimes, Obama was friendly with Ayers in the past and has not adequately found Jesus about it, and therefore Obama is by association guilty of the Weathermen’s crimes and therefore we should work to make Obama fail? Remind me what the point is again and how the Weathermen are at all relevant to the problems we face today. Does their existence de-legitimize our president? Is he even “our” president at all? Who is BHO anyway, that’s what I’d like to know.

And why was Douglas Haig so blockheaded and stubborn? The Battle of the Somme was a rather thick one, old boy.

194 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:35am

re: #188 Equable

Naah, I am with a local band (Southern California) who plays local shows here.

No kidding… What instrument? What genre? What locale? (in SoCal myself).

195 Ben Hur  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:51am

James Kuhn. Face Paint in Motion!

196 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:48:51am

re: #188 Equable

Naah, I am with a local band (Southern California) who plays local shows here.

Er… that was sort of humor, there is no band named Arctic Zionist Monkeys. There is a punk band called Arctic Monkeys. Look, I’m 56 year old. If I can make a such a contemporary joke like that, you should be able to get it. :)

197 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:49:26am

re: #189 RogueOne

+1 just for playing punk

Thank you, thank you… *bow*

198 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:49:43am

re: #190 bosforus

[Link: www.google.com…]
Then perhaps you can explain these google search results for “2006 israel lebanon genocide”.

Of course he/she/it can’t.

199 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:50:35am

re: #194 Pianobuff

No kidding… What instrument? What genre? What locale? (in SoCal myself).

Ah, I see your prior post now.

200 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:51:10am

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

Er… that was sort of humor, there is no band named Arctic Zionist Monkeys. There is a punk band called Arctic Monkeys. Look, I’m 56 year old. If I can make a such a contemporary joke like that, you should be able to get it. :)

Walt, I was considering that it was humor (you’re one of the wittiest cats here) but didn’t want to take it for granted, so I Googled it and saw the “Arctic Monkeys” and figured that’s who you were referring to.

I also thought you were trying to turn me on to some new music! ;-)

201 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:51:30am

re: #197 Equable
I gave the 17yr old son, an aspiring guitarist, of a woman I was dating some “The Queers” cds. She never went out with me again, but he and I have gone to a few shows together the last few years.

202 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:51:47am

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

Maybe if it was one of his female buddies?

Oh, dear.


203 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:51:51am

BBL, lizards.

204 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:51:57am
205 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:52:06am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Of course he/she/it can’t.

the quality is sinking fast

206 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:52:25am

re: #191 albusteve

and knocking down big money…the whole scheme really bites

I wonder which charities he supports.

207 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:53:05am

re: #192 Equable

Heh. I’m comfortable just settling in.

Oh, and my little bro is in his own little rock band, they’ve just started recording EPs last weekend though they’re still trying to find the money to keep going. They’ve already got their Myspace and Twitter up though. q;

208 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:53:08am

re: #200 Equable

Walt, I was considering that it was humor (you’re one of the wittiest cats here) but didn’t want to take it for granted, so I Googled it and saw the “Arctic Monkeys” and figured that’s who you were referring to.

I also thought you were trying to turn me on to some new music! ;-)

“Turn you on to new music?” Ewww… I can’t stand punk (nothing personal), and thanks for the compliment (not trolling for compliments, but I accept it with grace).

Peace.

209 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:53:16am

re: #203 Irish Rose
Just noticed you here. I wanted to tell you yesterday I liked the post about ticket revenue at your site. I would have left a comment on your blog but you had comments turned off on that one.

210 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:53:55am

re: #203 Irish Rose

BBL, lizards.

Cheers, Irish

211 bosforus  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:54:05am

re: #204 Pianobuff

Lovely stuff…

Reid wants illegals counted in Census

He’s gotta get support from somewhere:
U.S. SENATE SEAT: Two could beat Reid, poll finds

In one general election scenario, 49 percent of respondents picked Lowden and 39 percent chose Reid. In another, 48 percent picked Tarkanian to 43 percent for Reid. That poll, which surveyed 500 voters Tuesday through Thursday, has a margin of error of plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.
212 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:54:17am

re: #202 MandyManners

Oh, dear.

[Video]

Took you long enough to catch that :)

213 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:54:26am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

“Turn you on to new music?” Ewww… I can’t stand punk…not trolling for compliments…

butthole
//

214 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:54:27am

re: #201 RogueOne

That’s pretty cool man… my eight year old is an aspiring drummer (bought him an electric kit, I’m no fool) and loves bands like Bad Religion and bands that sound like them. Also he loves Iron Maiden.

215 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:55:17am

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

Took you long enough to catch that :)

Laundry.

216 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:55:49am

re: #214 Equable

That’s pretty cool man… my eight year old is an aspiring drummer (bought him an electric kit, I’m no fool) and loves bands like Bad Religion and bands that sound like them. Also he loves Iron Maiden.

Get him a life-size Eddie replica for his birthday. Kids love em’.

217 albusteve  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:55:51am

re: #204 Pianobuff

Lovely stuff…

Reid wants illegals counted in Census

so would I, but for different reasons than Reid…he’s dangerously close to some sort of legal problem here

218 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:56:18am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

No worries Mr. Newton, I love all kinds of music. To me that’s what “punk” is about - not narrowing yourself to one specific… anything. Hell I love everything from punk to George Benson - as a guitarist he’s one of my heroes.

219 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:56:21am

re: #214 Equable

Can’t stand Iron Maiden (poseurs) but I love Bad Religion. I might have their entire collection and I’ve managed to turn on my 17yr old sis-in-law onto em. Right now I have her hooked on Big D and the kids table.

220 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:56:55am

re: #216 Pianobuff

Get him a life-size Eddie replica for his birthday. Kids love em’.

Got him one! I got him a statuette of Eddie from the “Somewhere In Time” album cover. It’s bad ass.

221 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:58:24am

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

Took you long enough to catch that :)

And, there’s this one.

222 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:58:51am

re: #219 RogueOne

Same here, I collected all of their vinyls. I have an unwrapped copy of everything they did, including “Into The Unknown” (ACK!) and “Back To The Known”. Worth a few bucks I believe…

223 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:58:52am

re: #202 MandyManners

As an aside, I played keyboards professionally for 12 years, from 1970 through 1982, pop, top 40’s cover and standards, and yet, I have never kept up with the music scene out side of the gigs I did. That AC/DC song you linked me to, I never heard it before, and I couldn’t tell you the name of a single song on any chart right now.

It’s just weird. Or maybe not. Some people leave their work at work, and maybe I just left my music at work.

Most of my musical interest away from the gigs was Broadway musical, which of course, compliments one of my other professions.

I’m musically ignorant right now.

224 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:59:18am

re: #207 laZardo

Hey man they’re pretty sharp!

225 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:59:18am

re: #221 MandyManners

And, there’s this one.


Don’t forget…

/embedding disabled. D:

226 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:00:51am

re: #218 Equable

No worries Mr. Newton, I love all kinds of music. To me that’s what “punk” is about - not narrowing yourself to one specific… anything. Hell I love everything from punk to George Benson - as a guitarist he’s one of my heroes.

PPPLLEEAAASSSEEE… no Mr. Newton, I’m 56, but my feet are still above ground, call me by my nickname, as someone used above… butt hole :) re: #213 RogueOne

227 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:02:00am

re: #193 SeaMonkey

Is the argument that Bill Ayers does not regret his crimes, Obama was friendly with Ayers in the past and has not adequately found Jesus about it, and therefore Obama is by association guilty of the Weathermen’s crimes and therefore we should work to make Obama fail? Remind me what the point is again and how the Weathermen are at all relevant to the problems we face today. Does their existence de-legitimize our president? Is he even “our” president at all? Who is BHO anyway, that’s what I’d like to know.

And why was Douglas Haig so blockheaded and stubborn? The Battle of the Somme was a rather thick one, old boy.

Ayers is perfectly representative of a type of radical, hate-filled radicalism that Locker (whose comment started this whole chain) noted as being happily absent from the left but distressingly prevalent on the right.

Obama’s association with Ayers is not as much an indictment of Obama as it is of the entire structure of the Left in the united states. Bomb-tosser, unrepentant, proud of it, in fact - and firmly in the establishment.

Don’t give a damn about Ayers finding Jesus as you put it. The term drips with sneering condescension even to these Semitic ears.

The Weathermen are relevant to where we are today because they have become part of the establishment. Do you understand that? Do you comprehend or grasp the significance of the radicalism that is at the core of much of the mainstream left in the united states? This is very relevant.

Obama’s the president. Who he is in terms of his ideology and background is known, more or less, but what effect that has on his actions is unknown.

228 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:02:31am

Sigh. As a lefty, the best thing that could happen to the Senate Dems if for that [expletive deleted] incompetent Reid to be defeated. Primary preferably, but even in the general if necessary…

As for music, I’ve got Blue Train by Coltrane on iTunes to be followed by either Lou Reed or Arcade Fire.

IOW, good morning, all.

William

229 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:02:41am

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

As an aside, I played keyboards professionally for 12 years, from 1970 through 1982, pop, top 40’s cover and standards, and yet, I have never kept up with the music scene out side of the gigs I did. That AC/DC song you linked me to, I never heard it before, and I couldn’t tell you the name of a single song on any chart right now.

It’s just weird. Or maybe not. Some people leave their work at work, and maybe I just left my music at work.

Most of my musical interest away from the gigs was Broadway musical, which of course, compliments one of my other professions.

I’m musically ignorant right now.

TNT.

230 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:02:52am

re: #121 filetandrelease

As a conservative who held his nose and voted for McCain I find your comment way off mark. First, conservatives hardly have a monopoly on bigotry. Second, there are substantive reasons why I and many conservatives did not have McCain as our first choice. Immigration reform comes to mind. Thirdly, if you check, you will find there have been a few Republican presidents over the last 50 years.

Sigh…my comment was not directed at Republicans as a whole, I was addressing the sentiments expressed by the more rabid So-Cons. Notice my use of quotation marks around the word “conservative” to show that I did not agree with their interpretation of the word. Please also note that I was replying to a comment by Ojoe about removing the So-Con control of the party. I do not disagree with anything you said regarding McCain I was in the same boat at election time after all…

231 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:02:54am

re: #223 Walter L. Newton


My theme song…
Big D and the Kids table…

232 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:03:18am

re: #229 MandyManners

TNT.

TNT ?

233 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:03:36am

re: #225 laZardo

Don’t forget…

/embedding disabled. D:

One of the few songs post-Bon Scott that I like.

234 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:04:15am

re: #20 Locker

I’ve considered myself a “member of the left” for my adult life. From this perspective it is puzzling that members of the right claim that the left is just as bad when it comes to hate, violence, etc.

This does not match my experience.

Hate is something that is to be avoided on the left. It happens but it’s not glorified, it’s not rewarded and it’s not encouraged as a quality to be admired.

My perspective of the right is the complete opposite. Since I am not an internal “member” this is just an outside perspective but none the less… the right has always seemed proud of hate. Fostering the idea that hating something is “taking a stand”. That wishing for the utter destruction of an enemy person or idea is considered proper and to be respected and rewarded.

What we are seeing now is just a difference of opinion on what is and is not OK to hate. While I do acknowledge that hate can give one feelings of control and empowerment, it normally does not lead to the results that person would desire or expect.

Race hatred is found primarily on the Right, class hatred on the Left. The way the little stalins on Duke University’s faculty tried to railroad those lacrosse players, because of their “privileged backgrounds”, is a recent example of the latter.

235 ohpleaseno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:04:24am

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

TNT ?

Its Dyn-o-mite!

236 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:04:41am

re: #224 Equable

Thanks for the support. :D

Oh, and as for music I like, well, the news isn’t good…

237 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:04:50am

re: #193 SeaMonkey

Is the argument that Bill Ayers does not regret his crimes, Obama was friendly with Ayers in the past and has not adequately found Jesus about it, and therefore Obama is by association guilty of the Weathermen’s crimes and therefore we should work to make Obama fail?

As to working to make Obama fail - I daresay he’s making quite the good job of it on his own, and expect he needs little help from anyone to make it worse.

238 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:06:35am

re: #234 The Sanity Inspector

Race hatred is found primarily on the Right, class hatred on the Left. The way the little stalins on Duke University’s faculty tried to railroad those lacrosse players, because of their “privileged backgrounds”, is a recent example of the latter.

Those elitist lacrosse players with their fancy nets and pristine uniforms, are they too cowardly to clutch balls with their bare hands like the ordinary man?

/oh yeah, i went there. 8D

239 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:06:45am

Clicking through the links of that Barrett Brown piece, I see that RSM is from the area I reside in. Lovely. Reminds of the time a workmate played a prank by leaving a J. B. Stoner tract on my desk. T’weren’t funny.

240 idioma  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:07:26am

I know that linking to the HuffPo is heresy:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

What is wrong with the GOP that they vote against a rape victim simply because of the Democrat that authored the amendment?

Charles, what has happened to this party?

241 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:07:35am

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

TNT ?

Dynamite.

242 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:08:24am

Dang. Someone beat me to it.

243 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:08:35am

re: #231 RogueOne

My theme song…
Big D and the Kids table…

Punk trombone.

There’s one for the resume.

244 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:09:00am

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

TNT ?

The title of that song.

245 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:09:27am

I noticed that there was an edit war on RSM’s Wikipedia entry, up until about ten days ago. Wonder if the moderators got exasperated?

246 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:10:07am

re: #243 Equable

Punk trombone.

There’s one for the resume.

Anyone coming to me for employment gets points for any punk instrument or vocals.

247 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:10:20am

re: #227 Guanxi88

So we’ve gone from what, using Ayers as an example of the violent left to now saying his at the core of the American left? Throw in some tears and a George Soros reference and you’ll give Glenn Beck a good run for his money.

I don’t really care though, and actually support this type of rhetoric. Label “the American left” as being led by terrorists. Scream about them being radical to the core. Hell, let’s come right out and say it, they hate America! The last election results show how well that’ll work out for the Right. Sarah Palin tried to paint half the country as city dwelling, Ayers loving commie bastards. She rallied “The Real Americans” (TM). And it failed. So if you want to keep singing the same sad song, go right ahead.

248 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:12:42am

re: #246 Guanxi88

Anyone coming to me for employment gets points for any punk instrument or vocals.

I knew there was a reason I loved you, along with the fact that you’re tearing shit up on this thread.

249 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:13:41am

re: #178 Equable

Of course not all of them support genocide against Israel, but I have known and worked with some that would

Here in the SF Bay Area (Nor Cal), leftist groups routinely get cuddly with anti-semitic organizations that do advocate the destruction of the state of Israel. E.G., Code Pink will stand side-by-side with the International Solidarity Movement, an org that has met openly with Hamas leadership, helps smuggle weapons, and was ultimately responsible for the untimely death of Rachel Corrie (which the ISM shamelessly exploits to demonize Israel). Anyway (do forgive the soap box), while Code Pinko may not explicitly call for Israel’s destruction, they support the idea by association. It’s a tactic used frequently by leftist groups, I’ve noticed.

250 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:14:13am

re: #247 McSpiff

So we’ve gone from what, using Ayers as an example of the violent left to now saying his at the core of the American left? Throw in some tears and a George Soros reference and you’ll give Glenn Beck a good run for his money.

Why is it that whenever anyone wants to deliberately miss a point they throw in their ubiquitous Beck or Soros reference? Jeez, they’re not a trump card. Knock that shit off and LISTEN to what Guanxi is trying to say.

251 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:15:45am

re: #247 McSpiff

Lizards have been all over Soros for more than a year.

252 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:16:17am

re: #249 eclectic infidel

You hit the nail right on the head. In my book if you league up with X persons with X ideology, you by extension become a PART of that ideology. People don’t get it and cry “GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!!!111one!!11”

253 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:16:39am

re: #20 Locker

I’ve considered myself a “member of the left” for my adult life. From this perspective it is puzzling that members of the right claim that the left is just as bad when it comes to hate, violence, etc.

This does not match my experience.

I can’t speak for the US, but my experience in the UK, at a time when I was most actively involved in political matters, was that those members of the left whom I encountered had much greater capacity for hate and violence than those members of the right that were also known to me.

254 bosforus  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:17:27am

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]
Uganda MP urges death for gay sex
…seriously?

255 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:17:36am

re: #251 MandyManners

Associations with millionaires/billionaires can be found on both parties, the more they lobby the more their name gets known.

/just puttin that in there.

256 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:20:03am

re: #247 McSpiff

So we’ve gone from what, using Ayers as an example of the violent left to now saying his at the core of the American left? Throw in some tears and a George Soros reference and you’ll give Glenn Beck a good run for his money.

I don’t really care though, and actually support this type of rhetoric. Label “the American left” as being led by terrorists. Scream about them being radical to the core. Hell, let’s come right out and say it, they hate America! The last election results show how well that’ll work out for the Right. Sarah Palin tried to paint half the country as city dwelling, Ayers loving commie bastards. She rallied “The Real Americans” (TM). And it failed. So if you want to keep singing the same sad song, go right ahead.

So, to sum up your position:

1) Discussions of the violent past and radicalism of Ayers et al are out of bounds on grounds that his violent revolutionary ideology has no relation to the radicalism he preaches today. His influence in political circles is irrelevant or non-existent, as he and President Obama will tell you.

2) Beck discusses this, and so there’s nothing there.

3) The problem with the last pres election was that the Right ran a hard-core, fire-breathing campaign, a fact cleverly concealed by everybody’s favorite moderate, John McCain, at the head of the ticket. Obama fully aired all of his previous associations with radicals and communists, and, in the face of withering criticism in the press and extensive examinations of his positions and proposals, was swept, as if by acclamation, into the White House, where he has gone from triumph to triumph, culminating (but not ending) in the awarding of the Nobel Prize.

4) There is no radicalism in the core of the left in the united states, but the GOP and conservatism are shot through and rotten with Klansmen, neo-Nazis, Nightriders, and assorted ne’er-do-wells, who are the true spirit and face of modern conservative thinking.

Some of us on the right are trying to get these nutbars out of power before they lodge themselves in permanently and wreck the right and/or the country. We saw what tolerating this kinda crap did to the left, and want no part of it.

I thought Palin was the worst choice possible for McCain as a VP candidate, and considered her even less qualified to be VP than Obama was to be Pres.

257 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:20:21am

re: #156 albusteve

and it got torpedoed by 27 unions…Baucus is going nowhere

In order to sell thing thing, the Democrats are going to have to layer it with a ton of deception and false promises. Sort of like Obama’s promise for transparency. What ever happened to his promise to post everything on-line first? Gone.

258 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:20:48am

re: #250 Equable

Why is it that whenever anyone wants to deliberately miss a point they throw in their ubiquitous Beck or Soros reference? Jeez, they’re not a trump card. Knock that shit off and LISTEN to what Guanxi is trying to say.

Sure. I listened to him this entire thread. Let me quote the most relevant part:

The Weathermen are relevant to where we are today because they have become part of the establishment. Do you understand that? Do you comprehend or grasp the significance of the radicalism that is at the core of much of the mainstream left in the united states? This is very relevant.

This quote? This is bullshit.

This argument was played out during the election. Obama is too radical! He was raised by the radical left of the 60s! He’s a friend of william ayers! And we know the end result. The American people didn’t buy it. They know that the mainstream left does not consist of people like Ayers and code pink. And their votes show it.

259 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:20:52am
260 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:21:16am

this thing —-pimf

261 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:22:29am

re: #260 FrogMarch

this thing —-pimf

that thing, that thi~ng…

262 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:24:20am

re: #253 John Neverbend

I can’t speak for the US, but my experience in the UK, at a time when I was most actively involved in political matters, was that those members of the left whom I encountered had much greater capacity for hate and violence than those members of the right that were also known to me.

I guess you didn’t know any members of the BNP, or its predecessor, the National Front. I’m not denying the members of the left you knew had hate and violence, though; just that it seems to me that exists on both extremes.

263 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:24:36am

re: #259 MandyManners

[Link: nymag.com…]

[Link: globallabor.blogspot.com…]

264 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:28:38am

Soros donated $5,000,000.00 to Health Care for America Now.

Here is the part about Soros donating $5M to “Health Care for America Now” (HCAN).

And here is HCAN’s website, which is replete with that Obama font that I’m really starting to get tired of. There you’ll find exhaustively detailed instructions on how to find town hall meetings, and how to dominate them, avoid substantive debate, and suppress critical opinions. For example:

How should we interact/what do we say to the other side?

1. Do not debate on their “policy” points. Remember, they are seeking a platform to distort the truth about reform by making health care about abortion, rationing, euthanasia, etc. Rather than try to reply with the truth (which won’t move them anyway) we should respond with our message and at every turn re-focus the agenda on communicating with the Member of Congress.

2. Interrupt them when they get disruptive and refocus the meeting on communicating with the Member of Congress.

265 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:28:51am

re: #258 McSpiff

This quote? This is bullshit.

This argument was played out during the election. Obama is too radical! He was raised by the radical left of the 60s! He’s a friend of william ayers! And we know the end result. The American people didn’t buy it. They know that the mainstream left does not consist of people like Ayers and code pink. And their votes show it.

Ayers isn’t mainstream, isn’t respectable, isn’t establishment?

Ayers worked with Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley in shaping the city’s school reform program,and was one of three co-authors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge grant proposal that in 1995 won $49.2 million over five years for public school reform. In 1997 Chicago awarded him its Citizen of the Year award for his work on the project.Since 1999 he has served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty, philanthropic foundation established as the Woods Charitable Fund in 1941.

Ayers was elected Vice President for Curriculum Studies by the American Educational Research Association in 2008. William H. Schubert, a fellow professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, wrote that his election was “a testimony of [Ayers’] stature and [the] high esteem he holds in the field of education locally, regionally, nationally, and internationally.”

You’re right - he’s just a fringe outsider. Nothing there. But soft! Let us see into what obscurity Bernadine Dohrn has sunk:

In 1991, she was hired by Northwestern University School of Law in Chicago, as an adjunct professor of law, with the title “Clinical Associate Professor of Law”. Trienens said he did not get her that job, although he sat on the board of trustees of Northwestern, as did Dohrn’s father-in-law, who was chairman of the board until 1986, when Trienens succeeded him in that position. Robert Bennett, dean of the law school, had hired Dohrn, according to Trienens. Because Dohrn was hired as an “adjunct”, her appointment did not need to be approved by the faculty, and no vote on it was ever taken. When law school officials were asked whether or not the dean hired Dohrn or the board of trustees approved the hiring, the school issued a statement in response stating “While many would take issue with views Ms. Dohrn espoused during the 1960s, her career at the law school is an example of a person’s ability to make a difference in the legal system.”

In 1994, Dohrn said of her political beliefs: “I still see myself as a radical.”

Dohrn now serves on the board of numerous human rights committees and teaches comparative law. Since 2002, she has served as Visiting Law Faculty at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam. Her legal work has focused on reforming the much criticized juvenile court system in Chicago and on advocating for human rights at the international level. Dohrn is director and founder of the Children and Family Justice Center, which supports the legal needs of adolescents and their families.

You’re right - they’re not representative of anything at all. And the extensive and in-depth examination of Obama the candidate was more than sufficient to establish his qualifications in the minds of the electorate who, when they supported him, were wise and ready to be the change they sought to see, and who, now that some portion of them oppose some portion of his policies, are a rabble of retrograde racists.

266 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:28:54am

re: #258 McSpiff

Okay, uncork a Newcastle and calm your jumpy ass down Scooter.

I’ll see your Beck and raise you a Van Jones. You do realize that he worked with the Weather Underground?

Oh and Ron Bloom, manufacturing czar? You know, the guy who was fairly close to the Democratic Socialists of America who had this to say:

Our goal as socialists is to abolish private ownership of the means of production. Our immediate task is to limit the capitalist class’s prerogatives in the workplace…

Really man, follow the bouncing ball. I could give you fucktons more but learning is your job. Learn if you will, but otherwise please quit blathering when you obviously haven’t done your homework.

267 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:29:40am

re: #199 Pianobuff

Ah, I see your prior post now.

Young Rachmaninov.

268 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:30:16am

re: #258 McSpiff

This quote? This is bullshit.

This argument was played out during the election. Obama is too radical! He was raised by the radical left of the 60s! He’s a friend of william ayers! And we know the end result. The American people didn’t buy it. They know that the mainstream left does not consist of people like Ayers and code pink. And their votes show it.

The media glossed over the radicalism of the American Left because they were part of the establishment. A lot of us American’s understood this and we voted for McCain. The rest who voted for Obama were either too lazy to do some in depth critical research, too stupid to attempt it or just plain didn’t want to hear anything bad about their candidate.

Obama as a radical completely misses the point though. As the first African-American president, he had such an oppurtunity to lead this country and transcend politics, race et. al. Instead, he has completely abdicated his responsibility to lead in favor of letting Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid run the show. I wish he would stand up, put forth a coherent pland for the future and do what a president is supposed to do LEAD! About the only thing he seems to be leading on is the two wars but even now, stories are popping up about Joe Biden trying to derail that effort. I don’t care much for Obama’s politics, but right or wrong, he is the president. I wish he would act like one.

269 martinsmithy  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:30:20am

I hate, in a way, to bring this up now, since I am no fan of Rush Limbaugh. But I just ran across these two posts, which make a pretty good case that the two most outrageous racist Limbaugh quotes are almost surely fabrications:

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com…]

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk…]

I don’t know about the Daily Telegraph UK guy, but Nate Silver is no wingnut.

Frankly, those two quotes didn’t ring right to my ears either. Limbaugh is a lot more subtle in his racism than those two quotes would indicate.

270 John Neverbend  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:33:02am

re: #262 Kosh’s Shadow

I guess you didn’t know any members of the BNP, or its predecessor, the National Front. I’m not denying the members of the left you knew had hate and violence, though; just that it seems to me that exists on both extremes.

I knew of the BNP and NF, but fortunately I didn’t know anybody who belonged to those groups. Yes, it’s clear that both extremes have no lack of appetite for hate and violence.

271 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:34:46am

My favorite bit of snark:

He’s a member of the League of the South, which advocates for the legal secession of the southern states and otherwise celebrates the virtues of the Confederacy. This doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s sympathetic to racism. He could be really revved up about southern succession for reasons of something else. Other reasons. An eccentric taste for agriculture, perhaps.

272 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:34:48am

re: #258 McSpiff

This quote? This is bullshit.

This argument was played out during the election. Obama is too radical! He was raised by the radical left of the 60s! He’s a friend of william ayers! And we know the end result. The American people didn’t buy it. They know that the mainstream left does not consist of people like Ayers and code pink. And their votes show it.

You are correct - the mainstream left does NOT consist of or support people like Ayers and Code Pink. This is just as bothersome an over-generalization as those who think that we conservatives, including those like myself who are religious, are all of us ready to turn the country upside down to impose a theocracy.

During the period of the campaign, I was very concerned with Obama’s associations with Ayers and Dohrn and Wright. For reasons why, see:
re: #265 Guanxi88

Since the election, it appears these associations have been marginalized. Is Obama hiding the associations, and those folks are the ones really pulling the strings? Or did Obama use those associations for his own reasons and now sees every reason to disassociate from those folks? I am at present tending to think the latter. Which makes me feel a bit more comfortable with the idea of Obama the President, than I felt before the election.

That said, I think JetPilot is correct:
re: #268 Jetpilot1101

… Obama as a radical completely misses the point though. As the first African-American president, he had such an oppurtunity to lead this country and transcend politics, race et. al. Instead, he has completely abdicated his responsibility to lead in favor of letting Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid run the show. I wish he would stand up, put forth a coherent pland for the future and do what a president is supposed to do LEAD! About the only thing he seems to be leading on is the two wars but even now, stories are popping up about Joe Biden trying to derail that effort. I don’t care much for Obama’s politics, but right or wrong, he is the president. I wish he would act like one.

Obama has made some decisions about some things, but he has not shown the level of strong leadership, imo, that he should be showing, and has allowed Pelosi and Reid to run the show.

273 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:35:27am

re: #269 martinsmithy

A few of the quotes are questionable but there’s enough other evidence to prove that he has some racial issues.

274 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:35:34am

re: #256 Guanxi88

Some of us on the right are trying to get these nutbars out of power before they lodge themselves in permanently and wreck the right and/or the country. We saw what tolerating this kinda crap did to the left, and want no part of it.

I thought Palin was the worst choice possible for McCain as a VP candidate, and considered her even less qualified to be VP than Obama was to be Pres.

I’d have to side with McSpiff on this one.

Ayers and Dohrn look like they’ve been relegated to those sort of has-been celebrity “See that guy? I was the guy who ___” type of role. These days they just go hawking their books and lectures to whoever will listen (though they always manage to find a good audience, preaching to the choir as it were). If the right’s fears were founded they would have been Czars or something like that.

Even then, I can’t exactly think of a Czar that was actually good at what they did, the position seems more like either a glorified adviser position or one that takes most of the credit for something their respective departments do.

275 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:37:58am

re: #271 Sharmuta

He could be really revved up about southern succession for reasons of something else. Other reasons. An eccentric taste for agriculture, perhaps.

See, now that’s funny. Some mid-morning humour to help ease the day along (fighting a sore throat as I type).

276 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:38:14am

Alright, I guess my point is this: McCain ran very clear ads about William Ayers during the election, and it never became a serious issue. Obama is still polling at 56% and the Dems still have a majority in both houses. So either the media, and the left are all in some vast conspiracy to hide the true, radical nature of the left, and Obama continues to hide it in his policies, and congress continues to hide it in the bills they pass…

Or the American public just isn’t buying it because in reality the left has equal numbers of crazy as the right. And the American people accept that people like BO, Dean and Pelosi aren’t associated and don’t base their policy on Ayers et all.

Obama and the left have been incompetent, he’s shown a lack of leadership and he has plenty of very real, very public failures to focus on. Labelling the left as a bunch of commie terrorist simply makes it look like we’re running out of things to criticize in terms of policy.

277 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:39:11am

Reading through this thread, I can’t help noticing that nobody seems to want to touch one of the main points of the article — which is that when Robert Stacy McCain’s undeniable associations with racist groups like League of the South and American Renaissance and outright neo-Nazis like Bill White were revealed, instead of shunning him and treating him like the creep he is, the right wing blogosphere united to support him — and turned on me like a pack of rabid weasels.

Instead there’s a whole lot of stuff being posted about Bill Ayers, which really has nothing to do with this, and a lot of denial that there’s even a problem on the right at all.

If there’s no problem, why has the right wing blogosphere universally decided to back McCain?

278 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:40:33am

re: #277 Charles

They’ve decide to back him because they think he’s a winner. and think that enough people share his evil beliefs to make it worth their while to do so.

If we on the Right don’t purge these bastards now, in 20 years or less, they’ll be our establishment.

279 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:40:40am

re: #61 Guanxi88

As a leftist who is pro-Israel, I have to protest your conclusion.

280 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:41:10am

re: #276 McSpiff

Obama and the left have been incompetent, he’s shown a lack of leadership and he has plenty of very real, very public failures to focus on. Labelling the left as a bunch of commie terrorist simply makes it look like we’re running out of things to criticize in terms of policy.

Word up. Let’s pretend RSM isn’t the problem, it’s Bill Ayers! Lame.

281 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:41:42am

re: #279 bratwurst

As a leftist who is pro-Israel, I have to protest your conclusion.

That’s why I qualified it with “anti-war” left. Labor’s got Israel’s back.

282 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:42:45am

re: #240 idioma

I know that linking to the HuffPo is heresy:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

Did you click the link on the article Charles posted?

283 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:43:15am

re: #278 Guanxi88

If we on the Right don’t purge these bastards now, in 20 years or less, they’ll be our establishment.

Like you say Bill Ayers is on the left? This comparison is empty. Bill Ayers is a nobody. He has a cushy job and resepctable friends — yawn.

RSM is spreading HATE and getting props from your boys.

284 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:43:15am

re: #280 SeaMonkey

Word up. Let’s pretend RSM isn’t the problem, it’s Bill Ayers! Lame.

We know RSM is the problem, and reasonable people ought to look for ways to toss his evil ass out on the double. Ayers came up, as noted, as part of an inter-thread exchange. I point to him as a warning to the Right - do you want guys like this on your side? I don’t.

285 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:43:36am

re: #276 McSpiff

Or the American public just isn’t buying it because in reality the left has equal numbers of crazy as the right. And the American people accept that people like BO, Dean and Pelosi aren’t associated and don’t base their policy on Ayers et all.

Obama and the left have been incompetent, he’s shown a lack of leadership and he has plenty of very real, very public failures to focus on. Labelling the left as a bunch of commie terrorist simply makes it look like we’re running out of things to criticize in terms of policy.

You make an excellent point here, and I applaud you.

I do believe that some past associations need to be scrutinized, as it was said that “personnel is policy.” It’s rather unfortunate however, that some people are willing to look far past this to support some romantic notion that they are voting their conscience.

286 Dona Quixote  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:45:24am

I don’t really know how we can quantify “anti-war left” anyway. Which war? and is anti-war being those like myself who were always against the war in Iraq, or who those who are just by reflex against any war at any time such as Ron Paul?

287 alansfmd  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:45:44am

I agree with Charles. The Republican party and conservative movement is being pulled to far right by extremists who yell louder than the mainstream of the party. If the party allows itself to be completely separated from the center, it will completely lose the independent vote and remain a minority party for a very long time.

288 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:46:12am

re: #278 Guanxi88

They’ve decide to back him because they think he’s a winner. and think that enough people share his evil beliefs to make it worth their while to do so.

If we on the Right don’t purge these bastards now, in 20 years or less, they’ll be our establishment.

I agree 100%. It scares me to no end that the wacko right wing fringe groups are beginning to become mainstream on the right side of the aisle. The optimist in me believes that eventually people like Charles will make a difference and these elements will be cast into outer darkness where they belong. The pessimist in me really thinks that there are more of them then there are of Charles and we’re screwed.

289 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:47:11am

re: #279 bratwurst

As a leftist who is pro-Israel, I have to protest your conclusion.

There are always exceptions to the left-wing’s demonization of Israel. In our pro-Israel group the majority of us (the core/steering committee) would probably be labeled as “progressive” by the more conservative groups out there. One of the things we’re constantly battling in the media is how others view us. To the left-wing groups that do demonize Israel, they view us as right-wing whackos but in reality, we probably share many values with them, save that we are Zionists.

290 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:48:08am

re: #278 Guanxi88

They’ve decide to back him because they think he’s a winner. and think that enough people share his evil beliefs to make it worth their while to do so.

If we on the Right don’t purge these bastards now, in 20 years or less, they’ll be our establishment.

This is gonna sound crazy, but I want them to become as large a mass as possible though not enough to become the establishment. The bigger they grow, the harder they will fall and hopefully take whatever’s left of this legacy of hate I noted early on with them.

291 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:48:47am

re: #283 SeaMonkey

Bill Ayers is a nobody. He has a cushy job and resepctable friends — yawn.

RSM is spreading HATE and getting props from your boys.


For a nobody, Ayers certainly has a number of very influential people who think rather highly of him.

RSM getting “props” from a buncha mouth-breathing bloggers pales in comparison, and the very fact they need to rush to his defense shows his grip on the party is by no means secure.

292 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:49:07am
A fellow editor at the Washington Times once characterized McCain as “an ill-tempered racist who sat on the other side of my desk for many years and carried on loud telephone conversations almost every day full of racist and ultra-right comments, and often got into loud verbal fights with both reporters and editors in the newsroom.” McCain admits to having in the past carried on a long association with William White, the neo-Nazi writer and activist who threatened blogger Charles Johnson and harassed columnist William Pitts — and whose articles have appeared in The Washington Times. Indeed, to be singled out at the Times for being a racist is a hell of a thing; even the managing editor’s wife has gone public with her assertions that blacks are born with collectively lower IQs than whites, and is otherwise tied to a variety of white supremacist organizations and outlets. All in all, McCain is simply more apt to find himself tied in some way to any given racist than is the average Joe except in such case as the average Joe is a racist like Robert Stacy McCain.

Even then, the problem with McCain and those who have joined him in stripping the conservative movement bare of dignity is not one of racism, but of incompetence. A political movement can survive the deserved enmity of a few ethnic groups; it cannot survive more than a couple guys running around threatening newspapermen to duels or whatever the fuck is going on these days.

I recall the Lionheart incident, where Lionheart posted he thought Charles should be shot like a nazi, because Charles exposed his BMP leanings. At that time, some people began to back off Lionheart, because this really wasn’t the sort of behavior decent bloggers should be normalizing. Seems that’s changed in the last few years, so that when Stacy McCain does something similar, some bloggers are fine looking the other way.

293 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:49:30am

Er- BNP. pimf

294 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:49:36am

re: #290 laZardo

This is gonna sound crazy, but I want them to become as large a mass as possible though not enough to become the establishment. The bigger they grow, the harder they will fall and hopefully take whatever’s left of this legacy of hate I noted early on with them.

So, bring it all down, man? C’mon - who wants to put the country through that?

295 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:51:06am

re: #290 laZardo

This is gonna sound crazy, but I want them to become as large a mass as possible though not enough to become the establishment. The bigger they grow, the harder they will fall and hopefully take whatever’s left of this legacy of hate I noted early on with them.

I completely disagree. Do you let cancer spread in the hopes that the bigger it gets the harder it falls? No. RSM and his ilk need to be cut out with a scalpel as soon as possible and relegated to the fringe where they belong. There is no benefit to letting these people gain any kind of power or get any bigger then they already are.

296 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:51:14am

re: #294 Guanxi88

As I said, they shouldn’t be allowed to grow big enough to become the establishment. Rather they should gather enough mass to themselves so they collapse upon themselves, and the moderates and progressives take notes of it so that future generations may learn this lesson as well.

297 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:03am

re: #296 laZardo

Let’s just hope it’s not too late by then.

Gonna go bust up some cabinets. I love remodeling my house.

EQUABLE SMASH!

298 Kragar  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:05am

At this point, The GOP and other “Leading Conservatives”, whoever those are, dont have one ounce of my support. I’m not switching sides because I think the Dems and Libs are just as wrong on many issues but for different reasons. Until someone with a brain and reasonable, rational ideas shows up, I’ll just do what I can to knock out the craziest bastards on both sides.

299 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:17am

re: #296 laZardo

As I said, they shouldn’t be allowed to grow big enough to become the establishment. Rather they should gather enough mass to themselves so they collapse upon themselves, and the moderates and progressives take notes of it so that future generations may learn this lesson as well.

History teaches that nobody learns anything from history. This would be a catastrophe.

300 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:33am

re: #297 Equable

Let’s just hope it’s not too late by then.

Gonna go bust up some cabinets. I love remodeling my house.

EQUABLE SMASH!

Have fun! Break a…cabinet!

/ :D

301 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:35am

re: #277 Charles

I have no clue what has happened to the right-wing blogosphere, or why anyone has turned on you.

I will admit to a period of utter bewilderment for a couple of months as to what was going on. It took me some reading, some thought, some reflection about what I think is important, to come to the conclusion that the “right-wing” blogosphere and indeed, the GOP, was undergoing a complete meltdown.

For some of us, this conclusion was not easily made. There was the feeling that one was being somehow disloyal. Well - perhaps we are being “disloyal” to the GOP, but if loyalty to the GOP means we must leave our good sense and our values at the door, then so be it, as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t know how the thread turned to Ayers - I came in late, did not go through the whole thing; just responded to something that caught my eye.

And I agree with:
re: #288 Jetpilot1101

I agree 100%. It scares me to no end that the wacko right wing fringe groups are beginning to become mainstream on the right side of the aisle. The optimist in me believes that eventually people like Charles will make a difference and these elements will be cast into outer darkness where they belong. The pessimist in me really thinks that there are more of them then there are of Charles and we’re screwed.

302 Dona Quixote  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:50am

Demonizing any group ignores the very real differences between them. And risks alienating too many people who share characteristics with that group. No group is monolithic in every belief. That includes people who support Israel, the left and even the out of control right wing. I think many of them are not willing to hear anything sane right now but we have to keep talking without falling into the same traps.

303 irish rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:52am

re: #292 Sharmuta

Seems that’s changed in the last few years, so that when Stacy McCain does something similar, some bloggers are fine looking the other way.

Look the other way? Hell, they give him public props for it.

304 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:52:56am

re: #295 Jetpilot1101

I’m actually hoping that it will elicit an even bigger reaction from those in the Center and Left to strike it down with (metaphorical) force if it isn’t excised or let to collapse upon itself.

305 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:53:04am

re: #277 Charles

If there’s no problem, why has the right wing blogosphere universally decided to back McCain?

Unfortunately the vast majority of the right wing blogosphere has decided to accept and embrace two major fallacies - the first is that Obama Derangement Syndrome is apparently acceptable and mainstream and the second around ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’.

These same members of the right wing blogosphere ridiculed and whinged about the Bush Derangement Syndrome as practiced by the hard / extreme left - yet can’t see the stupidity and epic fail around embracing the same mental disease focusing around the current President. This isn’t going to restore the GOP / Conservatism to power because mainstream America not only ignore’s those who promote ODS but will turn away from those who promote ODS. They know that there are plenty of cogent arguments to be made against the Administration and seek a mainstream legitimate vision as an alternative to follow.

The other, and to me far more disturbing aspect of the majority of the right wing blogosphere, is their willingness to ignore the moral and ethical failures of the fringe right and embrace them, defend them, promote them, empower them in the GOP / Conservative movement simply because of their efforts to speak against the current Administration. The fact that Stacy McCain embraces moral values that should be antiethical to responsible conservatives, supports groups and people who stand against all we should believe in, should not earn him a pass but a refrain of condemnation that should not end until he is firmly ostracized into the outer fringe where he and his ilk belong.

We do not need to sell our souls, our morals, and our core values to win - nor do we need to match lunacy on the hard left with lunacy from the hard right to win. Common sense needs to take hold.

306 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:54:20am

re: #291 Guanxi88

For a nobody, Ayers certainly has a number of very influential people who think rather highly of him.

RSM getting “props” from a buncha mouth-breathing bloggers pales in comparison, and the very fact they need to rush to his defense shows his grip on the party is by no means secure.

Look, Bill Ayers is a dick. Nobody denies that. But he has no real influence on anyone. Not even the left wing blogosphere supports him; I’ve read attacks on Ayers at left wing sites too. He’s a fringe character. You can argue that he still has more influence than he should, and that might be so — but his influence is VERY limited.

On the other hand, the most popular right wing blogs are all linking to and supporting a white supremacist. I think that’s much more damaging than Bill Ayers’ remote connection to Barack Obama, which, frankly, turned out to be a losing strategy in the election.

307 irish rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:55:59am

re: #301 reine.de.tout

I have no clue what has happened to the right-wing blogosphere, or why anyone has turned on you.

I will admit to a period of utter bewilderment for a couple of months as to what was going on. It took me some reading, some thought, some reflection about what I think is important, to come to the conclusion that the “right-wing” blogosphere and indeed, the GOP, was undergoing a complete meltdown.

For some of us, this conclusion was not easily made. There was the feeling that one was being somehow disloyal. Well - perhaps we are being “disloyal” to the GOP, but if loyalty to the GOP means we must leave our good sense and our values at the door, then so be it, as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t know how the thread turned to Ayers - I came in late, did not go through the whole thing; just responded to something that caught my eye.

And I agree with:
re: #288 Jetpilot1101

I saw that you were having a hard time with this yesterday Reine, I’m sorry. I know exactly how you feel.

308 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:56:29am

re: #306 Charles

And if we on the right were concerned by an Ayers on the Left, all the more should we be concerned about RSM et al in our own camp. If we can, quite rightly, scream bloody murder about his radicalism, we must all the more go ape-shit crazy at the suggestion that a white supremacist is welcomed into our fold.

309 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:56:51am

Well the task ahead is to keep them exposed and limited - all of them, right and left. Keep them delegitimized and wallowing in the muck of their own two-faced rhetoric.

310 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:57:28am

re: #308 Guanxi88

And if we on the right were concerned by an Ayers on the Left, all the more should we be concerned about RSM et al in our own camp. If we can, quite rightly, scream bloody murder about his radicalism, we must all the more go ape-shit crazy at the suggestion that a white supremacist is welcomed into our fold.

And yet — the right wing blogosphere is doing the exact opposite.

311 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:57:48am

re: #308 Guanxi88

And if we on the right were concerned by an Ayers on the Left, all the more should we be concerned about RSM et al in our own camp. If we can, quite rightly, scream bloody murder about his radicalism, we must all the more go ape-shit crazy at the suggestion that a white supremacist is welcomed into our fold.

Hell man, anybody is welcome in my fold - as long as they’re level-headed and good people who remember what this wonderful hunk of earth is about.

312 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:58:30am

Headin’ to bed. Cheers.

313 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:58:31am

re: #310 Charles

And yet — the right wing blogosphere is doing the exact opposite.

Which is why we’re here.

314 Kragar  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:58:37am

re: #310 Charles

And yet — the right wing blogosphere is doing the exact opposite.

Lemmings to the cliff.

315 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:58:45am

re: #311 Equable

as long as they’re level-headed

That really narrows down the field right there.

316 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:58:55am

re: #304 laZardo

I’m actually hoping that it will elicit an even bigger reaction from those in the Center and Left to strike it down with (metaphorical) force if it isn’t excised or let to collapse upon itself.

Currently, the RSM/Beckbot crowd are a rather large mass. No one knows how large but we’ll find out come 2010. My fear is that with all the support the right wing blogosphere is giving these people, power may shift in Washington with results that people like me and you will not like. The last thing we need in politics is what the right is pushing now; rampant racism, half cocked conspiracy theories, and complete lunacy.

317 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:59:14am

re: #315 Sharmuta

That really narrows down the field right there.

To what, about… 6 people? I sure as poo ain’t one of them!

318 akarra  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:59:28am

re: #277 Charles

Reading through this thread, I can’t help noticing that nobody seems to want to touch one of the main points of the article — which is that when Robert Stacy McCain’s undeniable associations with racist groups like League of the South and American Renaissance and outright neo-Nazis like Bill White were revealed, instead of shunning him and treating him like the creep he is, the right wing blogosphere united to support him — and turned on me like a pack of rabid weasels.

Instead there’s a whole lot of stuff being posted about Bill Ayers, which really has nothing to do with this, and a lot of denial that there’s even a problem on the right at all.

If there’s no problem, why has the right wing blogosphere universally decided to back McCain?

There’s definitely a problem, and it’s frighteningly deep. In order to defend RS McCain implicitly or explicitly, you have to be of very dubious morality. The smears, lies, and tacit encouragement of the worst sort of political animal - I mean, what the right-wing blogosphere did/is doing to Charles is really low, an utter abuse of freedom of speech.

I think it’s really difficult to admit that some people in a given movement are moral, and other people use “morality” (in this case, fear of jihad & media bias covering for radical Islam) in order to cover their own faults. The blogosphere generally gives the latter a megaphone, which they gladly take - if left to themselves, that still-small voice called a “conscience” might turn out to be rather nagging.

319 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:59:40am

re: #307 irish rose

I saw that you were having a hard time with this yesterday Reine, I’m sorry. I know exactly how you feel.

{irish rose}
It helps that the Roi does not have the same sense of loyalty to the GOP that I felt, given that he has never had a “party affiliation” since I’ve known him. He helps me keep my head straight. As does LGF, of course!

320 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:00:31am

re: #316 Jetpilot1101

Currently, the RSM/Beckbot crowd are a rather large mass. No one knows how large but we’ll find out come 2010. My fear is that with all the support the right wing blogosphere is giving these people, power may shift in Washington with results that people like me and you will not like. The last thing we need in politics is what the right is pushing now; rampant racism, half cocked conspiracy theories, and complete lunacy.

I don’t think they have the sheer numbers to do all that much damage in elections on the national level. That said, there’s enough of them concentrated hither thither and yon to make mischief. My biggest fear is violence; I can see these nut-logs picking up the gun.

321 Dona Quixote  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:00:37am

One thing…I found this blog because of reading about the way you (Charles) were turned on by the rightwing blogosphere. I couldn’t find anywhere on the right to read political opinions or discussions where nasty names about Michelle or ODS wasn’t rampant. I was actually proud of Michelle and her lovely girls and I didn’t think Palin was the logical choice for VP. That meant I must be a left wing liberal (although I have been a Republican for almost 40 years.) So you have carved out a valuable niche. Sanity.

322 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:02:15am

re: #321 Dona Quixote

One thing…I found this blog because of reading about the way you (Charles) were turned on by the rightwing blogosphere. I couldn’t find anywhere on the right to read political opinions or discussions where nasty names about Michelle or ODS wasn’t rampant. I was actually proud of Michelle and her lovely girls and I didn’t think Palin was the logical choice for VP. That meant I must be a left wing liberal (although I have been a Republican for almost 40 years.) So you have carved out a valuable niche. Sanity.

Michelle and Obama have raised a couple of really nice girls. And Michelle and Obama seem to me to be utterly devoted to each other.

And in case anyone has not noticed, these family values are things very close to the hearts of conservatives.

323 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:02:23am

What I’ve noticed is that there is a whole lot of “we’re not one of them!” and “they’re not one of us!” on the interwebz, and I believe that while it is prudent to stay on target (Star Wars reference) it is unfortunate that people gather to use these monsters to either bolster their point or refute someone else’s.

These people aren’t ideological bulwarks, they’re asshole monsters who need to be exposed at all times. I’d like to think that much of us here are on the same side.

324 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #306 Charles

I agree that Ayers is just a canard - and a weak, ineffective comparison to the Stacy McCain’s, Lew Rockwell’s, Jerome Corsi’s, etc that are getting far too much attention and support from the center-right that should know better.

The far better comparison is the entire issue around the Euro-fascists / nationalists who demand (and in too many cases are getting) respect and support because they are standing against islamofascism. Pinheads like Geller and Spencer ignore their odious positions simply because these groups use the fight against islamofascism to mask their real beliefs. The right wing blogosphere now has apparently decided that neo-confederate / racist beliefs are acceptable as long as the proponent of those standards speaks out against the Obama Administration.

If one decides to sell out their values or ignores those who attack their values just because of a common enemy - on what basis can anyone depend on their values or judge them based on their values going forward? Expediency would always win over values in those cases. People cannot and will not follow those opportunists.

325 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:02:50am

re: #316 Jetpilot1101

Currently, the RSM/Beckbot crowd are a rather large mass. No one knows how large but we’ll find out come 2010. My fear is that with all the support the right wing blogosphere is giving these people, power may shift in Washington with results that people like me and you will not like. The last thing we need in politics is what the right is pushing now; rampant racism, half cocked conspiracy theories, and complete lunacy.

Exactly. As this mass grows and the Center and Left get word of it, I’m hoping there’ll be a reaction that will shunt people like them out of the political scene (even if in two parts, ‘10 and ‘12) and realign America to a more focused direction.

326 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:03:08am

Actually goin’ to sleep. z_z

327 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:06:03am

re: #320 Guanxi88

I don’t think they have the sheer numbers to do all that much damage in elections on the national level. That said, there’s enough of them concentrated hither thither and yon to make mischief. My biggest fear is violence; I can see these nut-logs picking up the gun.

But I think they are growing in numbers everyday. We still have over a year until the election and a lot could happen in that time not the least of which is wholsale carnage in the commercial real estate loan market. All these loons need is for the economy to tank in the early part of 2010 and the blame game will start afresh. If people see their 401K statements back in the toilet, I can see the Beckbots making serious inroads in our political system.

328 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:06:13am

Also - I forgot to mention, that political “dead horses” sometimes have a tendency to be resurrected. Some need to be kept beaten so that they’ll finally go the hell away.

The other McCain is getting his knees smashed in, and when he falls I’ll be happy to help flog the bastard along with any other bastards like him.

329 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:08:32am

re: #325 laZardo

Exactly. As this mass grows and the Center and Left get word of it, I’m hoping there’ll be a reaction that will shunt people like them out of the political scene (even if in two parts, ‘10 and ‘12) and realign America to a more focused direction.

Why wait - the center / center-right should be already working to return these fringe elements to the fringe where they belong just as William Buckley worked so hard in the ‘60’s to ensure the Birchers were relegated to the outer fringe where they belonged. Many people then fought to keep the Birchers in place in conservativism because of their strident anti-communism - but the odious nature of their other beliefs did far more damage to the conservative cause than their anti-communism. People realized then that communism could be opposed without selling out our core values (by accepting the Birchers), and its beyond time the center and center-right realizes this about the modern day Birchers, Birthers, neo-Confederates, neo-fascists, and conspiracy mongers.

330 irish rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:09:05am

Fre: #310 Charles

For years I ignored criticism from the left about the bigotry and hatred of the right-wing. I brushed it off and dismissed it as the rantings of liberals and left-wing wackos, because I didnt want to actually consider that it might be true. It was 100 percent intellectual dishonesty on my part.

I realize now that much of that criticism was valid.

331 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:09:22am

re: #329 Athos

Regret that I have but one upding.

332 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:09:34am

re: #318 akarra

There’s definitely a problem, and it’s frighteningly deep. In order to defend RS McCain implicitly or explicitly, you have to be of very dubious morality. The smears, lies, and tacit encouragement of the worst sort of political animal - I mean, what the right-wing blogosphere did/is doing to Charles is really low, an utter abuse of freedom of speech.

Many of the people who now serve as endorsements on RSM’s site are the same people who have already sunk to the bottom of the barrel by aligning themselves with euro-fascist parties. If they don’t mind euro-nazis, why would they mind their American brethren? What the blogosphere fight over Vlaams Belang did was show where this line was drawn and what bloggers paid attention and which ones didn’t; which ones cared about morality and which ones were willing to accept anyone into their foxhole. This is really a continuation of the same line being drawn in the sand, and seeing where people are deciding to stand is depressing.

333 Jetpilot1101  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:09:42am

re: #325 laZardo

Exactly. As this mass grows and the Center and Left get word of it, I’m hoping there’ll be a reaction that will shunt people like them out of the political scene (even if in two parts, ‘10 and ‘12) and realign America to a more focused direction.

Your theory may work but only if the country continues to improve economically and jobs begin to be created. The right wing loon movement has a lot invested in the failure of anything Obama and are just waiting for the economy to head back into the toilet. I fear that should the economy begin to side south, the loons will only gain more followers.

334 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:10:02am

re: #329 Athos

Another nail sunk with one blow. Mr. Miyagi salutes you.

335 lurking faith  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:11:39am

I’ve voted in every election since I turned 18, but if the current trends continue I may have a very hard time choosing the least awful candidate next time around.

I can’t tolerate racism.
I also can’t tolerate government by people who think that the average person is too stupid to run his/her own life.
And I believe we should minimize pollution and waste as a matter of self-preservation.

Where do I go?

336 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:12:33am

Barrett Brown has a list of five points in an earlier article:

1. It is impossible to argue with a crowd of people who are constantly reinforcing each other’s opinions.

2. Large groups of like-minded people, even when presented with facts to the contrary, will nonetheless advance false assertions.

3. The blogosphere cannot only be a useful means of advancing information that might otherwise be left untouched by the traditional media, but may also be a means by which nonsense is incubated, spread, and implemented.

4. It is important to ridicule people who damage the national discourse.

5. The internet is serious business.

All of them are relevant to this discussion. Number 4 is the only one with some fun involved.

It is hard work to call out bigots, especially when people you thought were not bigots tell you you are wrong to do so. Even here at LGF bigots can find support as well as condemnation. The balance is shifting, though. I am starting to believe that if the Repubs don’t kick out the racists, the 2010 elections will give them another wake-up call like the one they ignored in 2008.

337 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:13:54am

re: #335 lurking faith

Well with sites like these I am sure that 2010 and 2012 are going to be most interesting. There will be an enormous amount of influence one way or another. They’ve proven to be a bulwark and megaphone so far, and I believe that there will be MUCH to say about Charles’ work when the time comes.

I’d like to see Charles and cats like him on television in real-time debates.

338 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:14:20am

re: #329 Athos

I have said it before, but it bears repeating: as someone to the left of most folks here, I would MUCH prefer to see my side win because of the popularity of the platform…NOT because the opposition has embraced elements the silent majority find abhorrent.

339 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:15:04am

Charles -
It is obvious that all that’s going on right now, people turning against you and LGF - is extremely frustrating for you. I just can’t imagine. It’s just as frustrating to many of those of us left here.

I see what’s written at other places, and I’m amazed at what I see people writing and saying. I don’t know where their heads are, or how certain ones could have gotten to where they are now from where they appeared to be when they were here.

The process of thinking some things through is not as quickly or easily done for many of us (well, for me anyhow) as for you. The posts and discussions here are most helpful - there are actual discussions here! Not just people repeating the same stale snark for each other’s amusement.

You have my respect and support (and the same from many others as well).

340 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:15:09am

re: #329 Athos

Why wait - the center / center-right should be already working to return these fringe elements to the fringe where they belong just as William Buckley worked so hard in the ‘60’s to ensure the Birchers were relegated to the outer fringe where they belonged. Many people then fought to keep the Birchers in place in conservativism because of their strident anti-communism - but the odious nature of their other beliefs did far more damage to the conservative cause than their anti-communism. People realized then that communism could be opposed without selling out our core values (by accepting the Birchers), and its beyond time the center and center-right realizes this about the modern day Birchers, Birthers, neo-Confederates, neo-fascists, and conspiracy mongers.

Buckley was an unfortunate exemption. The values of the fringe are now the values of the conservative movement in general. Unfortunately they’re trying to co-opt more relevant values today such as fiscal responsibility into that movement as well.

341 rurality  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:15:09am

I care a lot more about abortion Dr.’s being killed, their support staff dying due to the righteous hatred/intolerance found on the religious right, than I care about bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the hatred that has spawned vigilantism at our borders and the deaths they cause, than bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the dangerous level of hatred fomented at these Tea swamps, the carrying of guns at rallies than bombs thrown 35 years ago. What has Ayers done in the last 35 years that makes him worthy of so much hostility and paranoia? He’s taught college. I’d care a lot more if he was teaching creative design.

342 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:15:51am

Hey Charles, have you ever considered debating RSM on the radio or other real-time media? I am sure that’d be a farging barn burner.

343 laZardo  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:16:17am

re: #333 Jetpilot1101

The signs are promising. Rather than wait and see I agree that the fight against the right-wing fringe should be continued, tooth-and-nail.

/eyelids…slowly collapsing…

344 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:17:25am

re: #336 wrenchwench

3. The blogosphere cannot only be a useful means of advancing information that might otherwise be left untouched by the traditional media, but may also be a means by which nonsense is incubated, spread, and implemented.


This tendency may be accelerated in the blogosphere because of the medium’s flexibility and streamlined nature. Most decisions can be made by one or two people, not by layers of corporate employees or an editorial board. Bad moves can be made much faster, and unaccountable readers can be relied on to reinforce them.

345 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:17:38am

re: #335 lurking faith

I’ve voted in every election since I turned 18, but if the current trends continue I may have a very hard time choosing the least awful candidate next time around.

I can’t tolerate racism.
I also can’t tolerate government by people who think that the average person is too stupid to run his/her own life.
And I believe we should minimize pollution and waste as a matter of self-preservation.

Where do I go?

When you figure it out, let me know.
Until then I’m voting independant.

I’d add one more thing to your list: I refuse to tolerate people who want our democracy replaced by a theocracy.

346 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:19:20am

re: #339 reine.de.tout

I don’t think that we ever really knew them, reine.
We just thought we did.

347 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:19:22am
Indeed, to be singled out at the Times for being a racist is a hell of a thing; even the managing editor’s wife has gone public with her assertions that blacks are born with collectively lower IQs than whites, and is otherwise tied to a variety of white supremacist organizations and outlets.

The interesting thing here is that I recently was reading about one of the books that helped allow people like this woman to defend this assertion. It’s called The Bell Curve. One of the people who has defended this book is here.

Consider what I just said again:

What the blogosphere fight over Vlaams Belang did was show where this line was drawn and what bloggers paid attention and which ones didn’t; which ones cared about morality and which ones were willing to accept anyone into their foxhole.

Then you can see that that signs were always there.

348 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:19:31am

re: #329 Athos

Why wait - the center / center-right should be already working to return these fringe elements to the fringe where they belong just as William Buckley worked so hard in the ‘60’s to ensure the Birchers were relegated to the outer fringe where they belonged. Many people then fought to keep the Birchers in place in conservativism because of their strident anti-communism - but the odious nature of their other beliefs did far more damage to the conservative cause than their anti-communism. People realized then that communism could be opposed without selling out our core values (by accepting the Birchers), and its beyond time the center and center-right realizes this about the modern day Birchers, Birthers, neo-Confederates, neo-fascists, and conspiracy mongers.

Uh…opposing? I think we are now inviting them in to inspect our nuclear sites. I wish I was kidding…

But I agree with you on the rest…

349 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #342 Equable

Hey Charles, have you ever considered debating RSM on the radio or other real-time media? I am sure that’d be a farging barn burner.

There’s no point in “debating” a white supremacist. They should be shunned, not “debated.”

350 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:21:29am

re: #349 Charles

Well for entertainment’s sake I’d like to see you hand this guy his hat and give him a swift kick in the arse. Seeing worms squirm can be fun.

351 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:21:44am

Without the date at the top you wouldn’t know this was written almost five years ago.

I miss republicans.

352 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:22:49am

re: #349 Charles

There’s no point in “debating” a white supremacist. They should be shunned, not “debated.”

Shunned and ridiculed.

353 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:23:26am

re: #341 rurality

I care a lot more about abortion Dr.’s being killed, their support staff dying due to the righteous hatred/intolerance found on the religious right, than I care about bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the hatred that has spawned vigilantism at our borders and the deaths they cause, than bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the dangerous level of hatred fomented at these Tea swamps, the carrying of guns at rallies than bombs thrown 35 years ago. What has Ayers done in the last 35 years that makes him worthy of so much hostility and paranoia? He’s taught college. I’d care a lot more if he was teaching creative design.

Well said!

354 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:23:47am

re: #341 rurality

I care a lot more about abortion Dr.’s being killed, their support staff dying due to the righteous hatred/intolerance found on the religious right, than I care about bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the hatred that has spawned vigilantism at our borders and the deaths they cause, than bombs thrown 35 years ago. I care a lot more about the dangerous level of hatred fomented at these Tea swamps, the carrying of guns at rallies than bombs thrown 35 years ago. What has Ayers done in the last 35 years that makes him worthy of so much hostility and paranoia? He’s taught college. I’d care a lot more if he was teaching creative design.

That’s all we needed…a domestic terrorist teaching our youth. How would you like Buchanan teaching your kids history class? How about WWII in particular? And don’t forget his rat bastard quotes after 9-11. Screw Ayers. Screw Buchanan.

I, personally, care about both, but that’s just me…

355 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:23:59am

re: #349 Charles

Yeah I guess you’re right, can you PLEASE re-link his interview with Colmes?

356 Equable  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:25:10am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

There we are.

357 Pianobuff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:25:52am

re: #267 John Neverbend

Young Rachmaninov.

On target as always. I’ll make sure to stump you next time. You a player?

358 JanglerNPL  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:25:58am

re: #306 Charles

Here is a very pointed article by a liberal blogger discussing Ayers and why his brand of activism was and is so dangerously misguided. I admit to having seen some Ayers apologists as well on liberal sites, but it was by no means universal.

I seem to remember a lot of speculation that Ayers would be appointed Sec. of Education. Needless to day, that didn’t happen.

359 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:27:23am

re: #358 JanglerNPL

“Apologists” would mean supporters.

360 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:27:48am

re: #358 JanglerNPL

The problem I see at this point in Ayers’ brand of activism is that it’s being embraced by the right, who now wants to rant and rave about the coming revolution.

361 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:31:18am

re: #340 laZardo

Buckley was an unfortunate exemption. The values of the fringe are now the values of the conservative movement in general. Unfortunately they’re trying to co-opt more relevant values today such as fiscal responsibility into that movement as well.

I will respectfully disagree that Buckley was an exception. He understood that the cancer of the Bircher’s values would eat at the heart of conservatism and the GOP if it went unchallenged and instead was embraced by those looking at their anti-communist credentials and ignoring their other more odious stands. He was able to galvanize the GOP and Conservatives to see that that values of the Birchers were not the values of conservatives or mainstream America. The Birchers, fully aware of this, nevertheless, endeavored to keep the message on their anti-communist cred and away from their racism / neo-fascism.

We are seeing this today with the Stacy McCain’s, Lew Rockwell’s, Ron Paul’s, Don Black, Pam Geller’s, Robert Spencer’s, Glenn Beck’s focus on the ‘populist’ message of opposing Obama and or opposing islamofascism while downplaying / ignoring their embracing of values and positions that should be as reviled as some of the policies of the current Administration. They are hoping that mainstream US falls for the shell game - focuses on a populist message and can’t see the odious nature of their beliefs until it is too late.

Frankly, I don’t care if they share my positions of opposition of a number of the current Administration’s policies - I do not welcome their support or share their support because fundamentally, they also stand for beliefs that I cannot and will not accept. I oppose them as strongly as I oppose policies of the current Administration. We do not need them as allies - and should not fall for their BS.

362 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:31:54am

re: #360 Sharmuta

The problem I see at this point in Ayers’ brand of activism is that it’s being embraced by the right, who now wants to rant and rave about the coming revolution.

EXACTLY. I don’t know how many times in the last 2 weeks I’ve read posts calling for the revolution or civil war.

363 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #348 Oh no…Sand People!

Uh…opposing? I think we are now inviting them in to inspect our nuclear sites. I wish I was kidding…

Good point. /shudder

364 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:33:31am

re: #346 Irish Rose

Rose, just sent you two emails.

365 Bagua  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:34:47am

The Asylum and Immigration Tribunal has ruled against the ban on Geert Wilders who is now free to travel to the UK and will visit London this coming week.

Our dilemma

366 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:34:58am

re: #349 Charles

If the GOP courts them it should be shunned also.

Beyond ironic that the party of Lincoln and Martin Luther King is in this state.

367 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:37:24am

re: #339 reine.de.tout

His contemproaries said of Lincoln that he did not have a quick mind, but that he was never under any illusion.

I think LGF is a sort of electronic analogue of that.

368 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:37:28am

re: #362 Stanley Sea

EXACTLY. I don’t know how many times in the last 2 weeks I’ve read posts calling for the revolution or civil war.

Rules for Radicals has been embraced by the right. They honestly think that’s why Obama won so we should follow that strategy too. They seem oblivious to how ugly they appear to the people they need to win elections, thus making this strategy completely counterproductive.

369 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:38:10am

re: #365 Bagua

The Asylum and Immigration Tribunal has ruled against the ban on Geert Wilders who is now free to travel to the UK and will visit London this coming week.

Our dilemma

Geert Wilders is a fascist who wants to ban books and take away basic freedom of religion from Muslims. He gets no support from me.

370 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:38:13am

re: #363 Athos

Good point. /shudder

It’s just I get the feeling that many people are kind of in denial that Communism / Russia / whatever the hell they call themselves now isn’t a threat. Kind of a ‘hey, all’s well in zion’ mentality that is permeating the political discourse in terms of ‘teh red scare’. Well, they have a lot of power still, assisting Iran’s nuclear program, mouthing off about ‘preemptive nuclear strikes’ on ‘aggressors’, doing all sorts of stuff down in South America still, telling the U.S. that they will not back Iranian sanctions etc.

Our response? Hey, come on in and inspect us…

/brilliance!

Putin can’t believe his good fortune in Obama, and neither can I…

371 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:38:58am

re: #369 Charles

Geert Wilders is a fascist who wants to ban books and take away basic freedom of religion from Muslims. He gets no support from me.

Nice hair.
That’s about it.

372 Baier  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:40:00am

re: #371 Irish Rose

Nice hair.
That’s about it.

Gert and John Edwards could have a hair-off.

373 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:40:41am

re: #371 Irish Rose

Nice hair.
That’s about it.

Yeah, he lost me at the ‘book banning’ and ‘religious freedom’s’ part…I was so digging him too.

374 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:41:08am

re: #348 Oh no…Sand People!

We’ve let them inspect nuclear sites for a long time… [Link: www.state.gov…]

375 Kragar  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #372 Baier

Gert and John Edwards could have a hair-off.

Blago’s hair could take them both.

376 Bagua  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:41:12am

re: #369 Charles

Geert Wilders is a fascist who wants to ban books and take away basic freedom of religion from Muslims. He gets no support from me.

I agree, I am not supporting Geert Wilders, just reporting that the Home Office has been overruled and the ban has been lifted. There is the question of EU law overriding the UK government, and questions about freedom of speech and freedom of movement in the EU.

377 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #370 Oh no…Sand People!

Putin can’t believe his good fortune in Obama, and neither can I…

Surrendering in order to get them to ‘like us’ is not a policy that will bode well.

378 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:42:38am

re: #374 McSpiff

We’ve let them inspect nuclear sites for a long time… [Link: www.state.gov…]

*Facepalm*

w.t.f.

379 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:43:23am

re: #366 Ojoe

If the GOP courts them it should be shunned also.

Beyond ironic that the party of Lincoln and Martin Luther King is in this state.

Many have forgotten that.

380 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:43:50am

re: #377 Athos

“The United States can be counted to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.”

— Paraphrasing Winston Churchill.

381 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:44:38am

re: #376 Bagua

I agree, I am not supporting Geert Wilders, just reporting that the Home Office has been overruled and the ban has been lifted. There is the question of EU law overriding the UK government, and questions about freedom of speech and freedom of movement in the EU.

Didn’t Thatcher warn about that?

382 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:45:29am

re: #374 McSpiff

We’ve let them inspect nuclear sites for a long time… [Link: www.state.gov…]

Hmm, I thought the USSR no longer existed…

I wonder how much support and access our inspectors get there?

383 anno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:45:43am

I would like to read the most damning white-supremacy stuff on R. Stacey McCain first as I learn about it. Can a few folks make some suggestions? What convinced you he was a racist…?

384 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:46:56am
385 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:47:13am

re: #383 anno

I would like to read the most damning white-supremacy stuff on R. Stacey McCain first as I learn about it. Can a few folks make some suggestions? What convinced you he was a racist…?

Charles tags his posts:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

Should bring you up to speed on the guy.

386 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:47:14am

My early recommendation for Hot Air thread of the day is in the Headlines…
Zogby: 69% of Mexicans say Mexican-Americans should be loyal to Mexico


Then go back to Mexico.

sammypants on October 15, 2009 at 12:42 PM



You beat me to it. Get out!

Oink on October 15, 2009 at 1:00 PM



Here’s a quick and simple solution.

Give ‘em California.

Expel California from the Union, let it revert to its original status as a republic and all the Mexicans in America will be relocated there. California is broke and going further in the hole every day, it’s nothing but an impediment to the American economy.

lonesomecharlie on October 15, 2009 at 1:23 PM

There was a comment about Mexican Americans being welfare leeches but I think it got deleted.

387 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:49:02am

Is it difficult to see the search function at LGF? I’m not being snarky, it’s a serious question, because people never seem to realize that they can find answers to a lot of the questions they ask just by using the LGF search page.

388 Bagua  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:49:10am

re: #381 MandyManners

Didn’t Thatcher warn about that?

Over the years many have raised the alarm about the emerging post-democratic EU indicating the end to British sovereignty, this is now a high profile example of how that works. The Home Office decided that Geert is not welcome in the UK as he is a rabble rouser, now the ability of the Home Office to decide who enters Britain is being curtailed.

389 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #341 rurality

Amen.

390 Athos  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:51:19am

re: #386 Killgore Trout

One got deleted?

Must be tokenism…

391 anno  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:51:50am

no not difficult. just didn’t look. I’ve been busy trying to read all the comments and keeping up with that kept me at the bottom of comments pages instead of on the top or main page. Thanks.

392 MPH  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:52:10am

re: #4 SeaMonkey

Funny how the rise of blogging itself maps so closely to the rise of right-wing nuttiness.

…rise of the nuttieness on all sides…

In many respects, we’re witnessing a repeat of the past eight years.

393 irish rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:52:15am

re: #387 Charles

Is it difficult to see the search function at LGF? I’m not being snarky, it’s a serious question, because people never seem to realize that they can find answers to a lot of the questions they ask just by using the LGF search page.

Nope. It’s right up top there, a big box with the words “search LGF”.

394 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:55:15am

re: #370 Oh no…Sand People!

It’s just I get the feeling that many people are kind of in denial that Communism / Russia / whatever the hell they call themselves now isn’t a threat.

“Communism” is a boogeyman, a failed and dying idea, and not really a threat to world security. Cuba? Laos? Vietnam? Kim Jong Il, maybe. And China is some sort of bizarro-hyper-capitalist totalitarian hybrid. All Russia wants to do is sell oil and bully its neighbors. And we can’t seriously go to bat for Georgia or Ukraine. Let’s worry about places we can make a difference. Russia/Iran may be a different story, so yes, we need to be vigilant on that.

395 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #382 Athos

Hmm, I thought the USSR no longer existed…

I wonder how much support and access our inspectors get there?

The Russian Federation is the successor state for legal purposes. The treaty also contains an annex to include other CIS states. Point being, America had agreed to allow communists to inspect it’s nuclear sites, and allows for inspection by successor states. And while not dealing with communist nations, the USA has also agreed to a regime of  aerial observation flights by numerous nations, including Russia, under the Open Skies treaty.

(These are just my standard talking points to the question of “Well, why should Iran/NK/Iraq agree to inspections when the USA doesn’t?” which I hear from time to time. Figured id share them with LGF.)

396 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:58:38am

re: #351 MinisterO

Without the date at the top you wouldn’t know this was written almost five years ago.

I miss republicans.

I saw that article a while ago, and strangely enough, said something like that just the other day.
Those guys were my dad.
I remember the arguments we had, 3 teenagers in the 70s/early 80s who thought they knew everything, vs him.
Never about religion or social mores, always about the line between government and free enterprise, about the war, and US foreign policy, about freedom vis a vis equality.
Those are the discussions I want to have with people from the other side.
Not about creationism in schools, or why defending white supremacist is OK now, or the “real America”. No “leftists hate America”, or “right wingers are evil fools”
Honest arguments on differences that actually take having a world view that has been thought through.
Real opinions or real matters that count.

397 McSpiff  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:02:31am

re: #378 Oh no…Sand People!

*Facepalm*

w.t.f.

err, sorry?

398 lurking faith  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:05:08am

re: #387 Charles

Is it difficult to see the search function at LGF? I’m not being snarky, it’s a serious question, because people never seem to realize that they can find answers to a lot of the questions they ask just by using the LGF search page.

It’s obvious when you’re at the top of the page; after that, of course, it’s not visible unless you go back up to the top. It might be useful to add a button down by the comments form.

399 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:09:03am

re: #398 lurking faith

It’s obvious when you’re at the top of the page; after that, of course, it’s not visible unless you go back up to the top. It might be useful to add a button down by the comments form.

I was thinking the same thing, although… there is a link to embedding videos in the lower part of the comment form, and people will still ask how to do it. I still think a link to the search page by the comment form would likely increase it’s use.

400 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:23:20am

re: #396 doubter4444

In all seriousness, where did they go when they were banished from the party?

401 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:28:35am

re: #400 MinisterO

In all seriousness, where did they go when they were banished from the party?

Al ot of them are still around, but quiet. Me, I idolized those guys when I was a kid, and try to live my life the right way, the way they would and did. The GOP is adrift; Buckley’s gone, and only now do we realize how crucially important he was to keeping us on the tracks.

402 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:34:14am
403 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:36:24am

Flounce spotted.re: #402 HipsterCon

Flounce spotted.

404 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:36:55am

re: #401 Guanxi88

A lot of them are still around, but quiet.

Ahh, I thought maybe they’d been euthanized.

I just wonder what they think of all feces-throwing monkeys that now represent the party, and whether they’ll still vote for the brand knowing that the product is rancid.

405 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:37:15am

re: #402 HipsterCon

It’s pure artistry - your first and only post a flounce. Well played, sir!

406 Bagua  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:37:34am

re: #402 HipsterCon

You will not be missed as you have nothing to say.

407 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:37:42am

re: #402 HipsterCon

Who do people do that? Weird.

408 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:39:23am

re: #404 MinisterO

Ahh, I thought maybe they’d been euthanized.

I just wonder what they think of all feces-throwing monkeys that now represent the party, and whether they’ll still vote for the brand knowing that the product is rancid.

I’m alternately furious and despairing. We need to get these bastards out, and now, or there’ll be no place for us to go, and we’ll withdraw from the political scene, leaving the nation at the mercy of the democratic party and the whack-jobs. I don’t want either side to run the show.

409 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:41:08am

re: #408 Guanxi88

I’m alternately furious and despairing. We need to get these bastards out, and now, or there’ll be no place for us to go, and we’ll withdraw from the political scene, leaving the nation at the mercy of the democratic party and the whack-jobs. I don’t want either side to run the show.

Amen to that.

410 hawaii69  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:47:53pm

re: #7 cliffster

Abraham Lincoln.. what party was he in again? I forget

Lincoln was in a party that no longer exists.

411 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:42:34pm

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

My point is that the American party system, although it has two “sides”, or “poles”, is out of balance with a political “center”. While the Democrats stand “to the left” of most Republicans, that only places them “in the left” relatively to US politics (that is, because there are only two real parties here, and one has to be “left” and the other “right”).

But weighting the Dems agenda and the policies they pass, both domestically and in foreign policy, they’re definitely not leftist. Favorable to government intervention? Yes, but that is not necessarily a “leftist” trait.

I don’t think doing that is comparing apples and oranges. If we use American categories to define other countries’ politics and leaders, we should also be able to measure the American party system against a (granted, not strictly defined, but more or less so) fixed right-left spectrum.

412 idioma  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 11:27:31pm

re: #282 Sharmuta

Did you click the link on the article Charles posted?

Yeah, but I’m not Charles. For the same reason that linking to DailyKos would have very different meanings if it were me and not Charles. “Heresy” may be a little strong, but I fail to find another word.


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