Oath Keepers: Very Bad Craziness

US NewsOctober 2009 • Views: 10,083

The Las Vegas Review Journal’s Alan Maimon reports on the rise of a very disturbing movement fueled by conspiracy theories and anti-government bad craziness: READY TO REVOLT: Oath Keepers pledges to prevent dictatorship in United States.

Launched in March by Las Vegan Stewart Rhodes, Oath Keepers bills itself as a nonpartisan group of current and retired law enforcement and military personnel who vow to fulfill their oaths to the Constitution.

More specifically, the group’s members, which number in the thousands, pledge to disobey orders they deem unlawful, including directives to disarm the American people and to blockade American cities. By refusing the latter order, the Oath Keepers hope to prevent cities from becoming “giant concentration camps,” a scenario the 44-year-old Rhodes says he can envision happening in the coming years.

It’s a Cold War-era nightmare vision with a major twist: The occupying forces in this imagined future are American, not Soviet.

“The whole point of Oath Keepers is to stop a dictatorship from ever happening here,” Rhodes, a former Army paratrooper and Yale-trained lawyer, said in an interview with the Review-Journal. “My focus is on the guys with the guns, because they can’t do it without them.

”We say if the American people decide it’s time for a revolution, we’ll fight with you.“

That type of rhetoric has caught the attention of groups that track extremist activity in the United States.

In a July report titled ”Return of the Militias,“ the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center singled out Oath Keepers as ”a particularly worrisome example of the Patriot revival.“

The Patriot movement, so named because its adherents believe the federal government has stepped on the constitutional ideals of the American Revolution, gained traction in the 1990s and has been closely linked to anti-government militia and white supremacist movements.

The movement is blamed for spawning Timothy McVeigh, who bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people.

”I’m not accusing Stewart Rhodes or any member of his group of being Timothy McVeigh or a future Timothy McVeigh,“ law center spokesman Mark Potok said. ”But these kinds of conspiracy theories are what drive a small number of people to criminal violence. … What’s troubling about Oath Keepers is the idea that men and women armed and ordered to protect the public in this country are clearly being drawn into a world of false conspiracy theory.“

Read the whole thing.

And the reader comments for this article are almost unbelievable. The right wing seems to be losing all touch with reality, and it’s headed to a very bad place.

Jump to bottom

306 comments

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:01pm

senoJ xelA has been yammering about these guys for a while. My take - on their own, not likely to stage a revolt, but definitely part of the environment that would need to be in place to all but guarantee some fool or group of fools taking up arms. The very existence of such a group is sufficient to confirm and further radicalize the paranoia of the already-borderline cases.

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:11pm

The right wing seems to be losing all touch with reality.

Hmmm... past tense may have been more accurate...

[deleted] Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:38:14pm

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:39:17pm

I'd also point out that the existence of these folk and others like them is cited as evidence of "growing opposition to the dictatorial" blah, blah, blah of the current administration.

Bad stuff. There were a coupla whacky leftist orgs who talked about storming this or that building and effecting citizens arrests of Bush admin figures, but, let's be honest, most leftists these days don't have arms or familiarity with their use sufficient to do much of anything. On the right, however, familiarity with weaponry is not at all uncommon.

AK-47% Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:39:48pm

Would they refuse to fight an illegal war of occupation fought on a trumped-up pretext?

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:40:01pm

Damn! Did I miss an "oafer" flounce?

anno Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:22pm

I'm sorry, I didn't know that was offensive. won't happen again. I meant to say it's very bad for sure.

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:27pm

re: #5 ralphieboy

Would they refuse to fight an illegal war of occupation fought on a trumped-up pretext?

Ask them, why dontcha?

(And which war do you mean, or is this a hypothetical question on your part?)

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:43pm

Active Duty Troops In Iraq Are Wearing Oath Keeper Tabs: “… what we are wearing while over here in Iraq”

Can anyone explain this? Wouldn't the uniform code prohibit this? Fake?

enoughalready Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:42:06pm

re: #2 freetoken

Hmmm... past tense may have been more accurate...

Seems like an ongoing process to me. Although I am not quite sure how much sense there is left at this point.

Noam Sayin' Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:43:02pm

Jeepers...

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:43:08pm

The LA Times ran a similar article exactly a month ago:

Oath Keepers organizer sees need to sound an alarm

Which makes this observation among others:

A vociferous group of Americans is warning that the country is not just headed in the wrong direction -- but over a cliff. They are mainstream media commentators, like Fox News' Glenn Beck. They are religious leaders, like "Bible Answer Man" Hank Hanegraaff, who told radio listeners last month that "socialism and fascism" were "slipping quietly through the back door."

Was obvious, but still good to see in print.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:45:35pm

re: #5 ralphieboy

Would they refuse to fight an illegal war of occupation fought on a trumped-up pretext?

Some of them, probably. Some of these guys are knee-jerk military fans, but many are isolationist freakazoids.

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:17pm

They glossed over this in the article but the OathKeepers are very involved in the Tea Parties

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:19pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Active Duty Troops In Iraq Are Wearing Oath Keeper Tabs: “… what we are wearing while over here in Iraq”

Can anyone explain this? Wouldn't the uniform code prohibit this? Fake?

Then new-issue uniforms have all devices and patches affixed with hook-and-loop fastenings. Consequently, one could easily put such a patch on fo rpurposes of the photo and then swap it out again with the proper one.

Could be real (means little to nothing) could be fake (means little to nothing).

The Curmudgeon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:29pm

In some ways this reminds me of the "survivalist" movement during the Carter administration. Loads of people thought everything was falling apart, so they had to be armed and ready, often in the wilderness.

kellygrrrl Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:58pm

The Oath Keepers are some of the most dangerous of the militia groups out there today. Their YouTube postings are beyond bizarre and frightening. Most of them get pulled before too long.
They are the group who posted the WARNING youtube that they would declare war if Obama didn't leave the country by Oct. 15

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:47:42pm

re: #16 The Curmudgeon

In some ways this reminds me of the "survivalist" movement during the Carter administration. Loads of people thought everything was falling apart, so they had to be armed and ready, often in the wilderness.

I recall reading a comment by a former LGFer, writing about how he was building a cabin in the woods to retreat to when the jihadis invaded. I was not registered at the time, so couldn't ask him why he didn't just fix up the one his father had built for when the Soviets invaded.

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:47:59pm

re: #15 Guanxi88

Then new-issue uniforms have all devices and patches affixed with hook-and-loop fastenings. Consequently, one could easily put such a patch on fo rpurposes of the photo and then swap it out again with the proper one.

Could be real (means little to nothing) could be fake (means little to nothing).

Ah, that makes sense. I assume a soldier could just walk around with those tags on his uniform without an officer freaking out on them.

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:48:10pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

The LA Times article does touch on that by giving one example.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:48:25pm

re: #17 kellygrrrl

The Oath Keepers are some of the most dangerous of the militia groups out there today. Their YouTube postings are beyond bizarre and frightening. Most of them get pulled before too long.
They are the group who posted the WARNING youtube that they would declare war if Obama didn't leave the country by Oct. 15

Well, he's still here. Have they declared?

armylaw Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:49:54pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

It's trivial to manufacture fake tabs like this "OathKeepers" tab and attach them to the velcro on the Army uniform. Those would be prohibited by the Army uniform regulation, but that regulation is not punitive. So the first time a Soldier wears the tab, it's not illegal. I guarantee you that the Soldier's First Sergeant or Company Commander will order him to take it off when it is spotted.

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #16 The Curmudgeon

In some ways this reminds me of the "survivalist" movement during the Carter administration. Loads of people thought everything was falling apart, so they had to be armed and ready, often in the wilderness.

Survivalism was a bit more complicated. There were some who stored up bullets, beans, and bullion, and then there were others who just went back tot he land, as it were, and deliberately elected to live in places away from concentrations of population (made them less-likely to be hit in the event of a nuke exchange, and improved the likelihood of survival should such a thing happen).

Survivalism was neither of the left nor of the right - you found every possible type of person represented there. They're still around, too, of course. The ones calling themselves survivalists tend to be the ones who haven't figured it out yet that you can't store up enough of anything to ride out anything, and you're just better off living carefully. I know whereof I speak when it comes to these folk.

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:50:45pm

re: #4 Guanxi88

I don't really know why this is always phrased like a lack of means and skill, when really it's obviously a political decision not to rely on weapons to get your way in a democracy. If anyone on the left would have decided to "storm the castle" in this sense, how long would it have taken him to get a gun and to learn to shoot?

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:51:02pm

re: #4 Guanxi88

I don't really know why this is always phrased like a lack of means and skill, when really it's obviously a political decision not to rely on weapons do get your way in a democracy. If anyone on the left would have decided to "storm the castle" in this sense, how long would it have taken him to get a gun and to learn to shoot?

lolohead Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:51:59pm

re: #16 The Curmudgeon

In some ways this reminds me of the "survivalist" movement during the Carter administration. Loads of people thought everything was falling apart, so they had to be armed and ready, often in the wilderness.

Or the "black helicopter" brigades during the Clinton years. Somehow all of those secret military units and helicopters were mothballed when GW Bush took office.

recusancy Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:52:21pm

Meanwhile the Secret Service is being strained due to
"the unprecedented number of death threats against President Obama, a rise in racist hate groups, and a new wave of antigovernment fervor..."

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:52:35pm

Thanks for posting this, Charles. I wanted to see this widely distributed. :)

Cato the Elder Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:53:16pm

Waiting for people to start complaining about the Southern Poverty Law Center.

3...2...1...

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:53:35pm

re: #25 suchislife

I don't really know why this is always phrased like a lack of means and skill, when really it's obviously a political decision not to rely on weapons do get your way in a democracy. If anyone on the left would have decided to "storm the castle" in this sense, how long would it have taken him to get a gun and to learn to shoot?

I self-define as a liberal. I can shoot. Learned it from my dad who is also a liberal, and an ex-cop. I was just taught never to aim a gun at anything I didn't intend to kill, and not to talk about armed revolution against other Americans.

I realize that I can't understand the deep patriotism of these folks.

armylaw Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:53:37pm

re: #5 ralphieboy

Which "illegal war"? The defensive one in Afghanistan after 2,000 Americans were burned alive in NYC? Or the invasion of Iraq which was acquiesced to by the international community? If the Iraq war was illegal, why is the Iraqi government recognized as legitimate by the UN and by every other government in the world, including Iran?

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:53:45pm

re: #17 kellygrrrl

Oh, they have many videos on-line... For example:

Listen at 1:18 in this video...

Youtube Video

Apparently we no longer have a constitutional republic, because he wants to get it back for us!

[deleted] Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:54:03pm

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:54:26pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Waiting for people to start complaining about the Southern Poverty Law Center.

3...2...1...

They already covered that in the article's comments. I swear that short of Stormfront or the Freep itself, there's no bigger cesspool on the internet that the comments section in the R-J.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:54:56pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Waiting for people to start complaining about the Southern Poverty Law Center.

3...2...1...

Not planning to. They are good folks.

kellygrrrl Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:55:24pm

Marine Sgt. Charles Dyer posts as "July4Patriot" and appears in many videos showing the Oath Keepers militia training operation, which appears to be quite organized and serious

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:55:26pm

WOLVERINES!

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:56:36pm

re: #25 suchislife

I don't really know why this is always phrased like a lack of means and skill, when really it's obviously a political decision not to rely on weapons do get your way in a democracy. If anyone on the left would have decided to "storm the castle" in this sense, how long would it have taken him to get a gun and to learn to shoot?

In general, the political left in this country put down the gun in the late 70's and hasn't picked it up since. Training in the use of arms and tactics is not currently a part of any sort of leftist demonstration of authenticity - except for a few loudmouths, leftists no longer use or advocate the use of lethal force. I'm a rightist, and I watch this kind of stuff, and whereas there may be the occasional isolated instance of the use of arms by a leftist for political purposes, the "cultural infrastructure" of the American left's militancy no longer exists.

This means that, in general, instances of political violence are rare from the left, as they lack large numbers of members with training and familiarity with weaponry. (Note - in general, support for radical leftist causes is NOT strongly correlated with military or police service, the two main routes by which training in weapons and tactics is disseminated in the population. Note, too, that the end of the draft marked more or less the end of civilian familiarity with arms and tactics, another contributing cause, perhaps, for the decline in leftist militancy.)

Cato the Elder Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:57:27pm

re: #17 kellygrrrl

The Oath Keepers are some of the most dangerous of the militia groups out there today. Their YouTube postings are beyond bizarre and frightening. Most of them get pulled before too long.
They are the group who posted the WARNING youtube that they would declare war if Obama didn't leave the country by Oct. 15

So we're at war now?

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:58:05pm

The Three Percenter thing from KT's link to their blog is really creepy:

What’s a Three Percenter?

Now, seeing the other tab and patch in the photo, you may ask “what is a three percenter?” The narrowest definition is that three percenters are hard-line gun owners who are done backing up and will not comply with more infringements of their right to bear arms. A broader definition would be that they are hard-line Americans who are done backing up and will not comply with further infringement of any of their rights. It also alludes to the three percent of the colonists who took to the field against the King during the Revolution, and the estimation that at least three percent of modern Americans will actively fight, if it comes to it, to preserve liberty. Read this essay for more explanation.

Oath Keepers and Three Percenters are separate groups, but it is not a surprise to see people who consider themselves both an Oath Keeper and a Three Percenter. If you read the supplied links you will see why.

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:58:33pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Active Duty Troops In Iraq Are Wearing Oath Keeper Tabs: “… what we are wearing while over here in Iraq”

Can anyone explain this? Wouldn't the uniform code prohibit this? Fake?

I don't think it's fake and they should be summarily drummed out in disgrace. No organization should supersede the Chain of Command. Disturbing in the extreme that Command would allow this "advertising".

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:59:22pm

re: #39 Cato the Elder

So we're at war now?

I like the odds.

armylaw Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:00:25pm

re: #17 kellygrrrl

The Oath Keepers are some of the most dangerous of the militia groups out there today. Their YouTube postings are beyond bizarre and frightening. Most of them get pulled before too long.
They are the group who posted the WARNING youtube that they would declare war if Obama didn't leave the country by Oct. 15

Do you have a link to that YouTube?

Under Army Regulations (AR 600-20, Army Command Policy), participation in "extremist organizations" is forbidden to Soldiers. Extremist organizations are defined as those that "advocate racial, gender, or ethnic hatred or intolerance; advocate, create, or engage in illegal discrimination based on race, color, gender, religion, or national origin, or advocate the use of or use force or violence or unlawful means to deprive individuals of their rights under the United States Constitution or the laws of the United States, or any State, by unlawful means."

Threatening to overthrow the lawfully elected President of the United States certainly qualifies under that definition.

Violation of that regulation is grounds for punishment by court martial or administrative separation.

lostlakehiker Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:01:40pm

The founding fathers were wary of dictators and set things up so that the oath under which men are sworn to service pledges fealty to the Constitution, and to the lawful orders of superiors.

Back in the runup to Nixon's departure, there was a flurry of communication at the highest ranks in the armed forces, reminding everyone exactly where their duty did, and didn't, lie. The fear was that Nixon would come unhinged and try to stage a military incident as a distraction.

There was then some reason for such a fear, though in the end nothing came of it. Now, there is no real grounds for such a fear. Since none of what they fear is going to happen, this whole Oath Keepers business won't come to anything.

On the other hand, a climate of opinion in which everyone is resolute on the matter of the limits of State power is one reason that the U.S. will not, cannot, go the way of say Venezuela. It's not just that the people in office aren't that sort. It's not just that the Congress wouldn't go along. It's that men of the bent of Chavez don't even bother to seek office. They can see, as all can see, that it would never fly.

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:01:52pm

Kilgore posted this in the previous thread.

Extreme rightwing groups from all over Europe hold meetings in Belgium without police interference.

Saturday evening more than 100 youngsters from extreme right groups gathered in a hall in Moerbrugge, near Oostkamp (West Flanders). There were speeches and concerts which showed clear and open fascist sympathies.

The audience and speakers came from all over Europe. The German national socialist Axel Reitz was the guest of honour at the gathering. He has been convicted in Germany for illegal arms possession and bearing Nazi symbols.

"We are fighting today for our fatherland, for our history, for our culture and for the next generations. We are fighting for Europe, the continent of the white race, friends," he shouted before a full hall.

The group Brigade M, also famous for Blood and Honour concerts, are openly fascist. The group members allowed themselves to be filmed.

"It's a holy war... against the delusion of Judaism and Islam," they sang.

SNIP

I wonder if they're buddies with Nick Griffin.

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:02:41pm

re: #27 recusancy

Meanwhile the Secret Service is being strained due to
"the unprecedented number of death threats against President Obama, a rise in racist hate groups, and a new wave of antigovernment fervor..."

That article deserves more attention.

Would it be too cynical of me to expect that there are plenty of people, many of the commenters in the right-o-sphere for example, who when confronted with that article will either deny it is true, or blame Obama for it for being so "divisive"... ?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:03:10pm

re: #40 ~Fianna

The Three Percenter thing from KT's link to their blog is really creepy:

Count me as part of the seven percent who plans to defend her country against these lunatics.

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:03:16pm

"The whole point of Oath Keepers is to stop a dictatorship from ever happening here," Rhodes, a former Army paratrooper and Yale-trained lawyer, said in an interview with the Review-Journal. "My focus is on the guys with the guns, because they can't do it without them.
"We say if the American people decide it's time for a revolution, we'll fight with you."

I wonder what Magic 8-Ball this guy will consult to determine that, if the results of free elections aren't good enough for him?

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:03:53pm

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

Count me as part of the seven percent who plans to defend her country against these lunatics.

I hope like hell you're never called on to do so.

recusancy Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:04:41pm

re: #46 freetoken

Read the comments on it... Many say that it's Obama's fault that there are threats because he's "bankrupting the country".

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:04:49pm

re: #45 MandyManners

Kilgore posted this in the previous thread.

Extreme rightwing groups from all over Europe hold meetings in Belgium without police interference.

SNIP

I wonder if they're buddies with Nick Griffin.

I wonder if they're pals with Pam.

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:04:50pm

I've had a rifle since I was a teenager, and I'm not joining "Oath Keepers".

97 % er.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:04:53pm

re: #41 austin_blue

I don't think it's fake and they should be summarily drummed out in disgrace. No organization should supersede the Chain of Command. Disturbing in the extreme that Command would allow this "advertising".

What would they do if these guys were adding Nation of Islam, or 5 Percenter stuff to their uniforms? This is ridiculous, and shouldn't be tolerated.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:05:46pm

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

Count me as part of the seven percent who plans to defend her country against these lunatics.

Sorry, there was supposed to be a ninety in there.

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:06:40pm

re: #45 MandyManners

Kilgore posted this in the previous thread.

Extreme rightwing groups from all over Europe hold meetings in Belgium without police interference.

SNIP

I wonder if they're buddies with Nick Griffin.

re: #51 Alouette

I wonder if they're pals with Pam.

And I'll repeat a hope I expressed last week: I hope like Hell someone is monitoring communications between these jackasses and their spiritual cousins here Stateside.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:07:36pm

re: #49 ~Fianna

I hope like hell you're never called on to do so.

Far as I'm concerned, I'm already doing so by participating in an active representative democracy, and being an informed voter.

I hope like hell I never have to take up arms against these folks, but find it unlikely. I think they're big talkers.

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:07:44pm

re: #51 Alouette

I wonder if they're pals with Pam.

Did you get that bit about Judaism? Would she finally get it?

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:08:28pm

re: #55 Guanxi88

And I'll repeat a hope I expressed last week: I hope like Hell someone is monitoring communications between these jackasses and their spiritual cousins here Stateside.

Same here.

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:08:28pm

The usual suspects:

About OathKeeper Founder Stewart Rhodes

Stewart is the founder and Director of Oath Keepers. He served as a U.S. Army paratrooper until disabled in a rough terrain parachuting accident during a night jump.

He is a former firearms instructor and former member of Rep. Ron Paul’s DC staff.

Stewart graduated from Yale Law School in 2004, where his paper “Solving the Puzzle of Enemy Combatant Status” won Yale’s Miller prize for best paper on the Bill of Rights. He assisted teaching U.S. military history at Yale, was a Yale Research Scholar, and is writing a book on the dangers of applying the laws of war to the American people.

Stewart currently writes the monthly Enemy at the Gates column for S.W.A.T. Magazine, and has written for The Warrior, the journal of Gerry Spence’s Trial Lawyer’s College; for ~~www.moreliberty.org~~; and for JPFO.

Stewart has appeared on many radio shows including G. Gordon Liddy, Alex Jones, The Power Hour, Deevy Kidd, Spy Chips author Katherine Albrecht, and many more.

Stewart was invited to speak at Stanford University on unlawful enemy combatant status, and teaches classes on the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:08:32pm

re: #57 MandyManners

Did you get that bit about Judaism? Would she finally get it?

But they're not talking about HER, you understand.

J.S. Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:09:08pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

I've linked to the Southern Poverty Law Center before (that was when the Center did a review of Ann Coulter's book: "Guilty: Liberal 'Victims' and Their Assault on America." She was defending a racist group in her book...Google link on book and the group...here..)

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:09:28pm

re: #60 Guanxi88

But they're not talking about HER, you understand.

Wonder if she would somehow, in fact, twist that to be referring only to 'sellout liberal Jews'.

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:09:38pm

re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, there was supposed to be a ninety in there.

Anywhere in particular?

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:09:55pm

re: #38 Guanxi88

Well, it seems we agree that the left has put down the gun, i.e. made a political decision against violence as a means of dissent and by and large stuck by it, in rhetoric and practice.
But I think you completely overestimate the value of combat training for this kind of thing. I know that the people in these militias believe that their constant weapon training will be needed in some sort of coming war, but there will never be a war. There will only be individual outbursts and maybe short group actions that the government will destroy like Obama did the fly, no matter how many years they shoot at paper targets.
The only problem is the acceptance of armed resistance as a legitimate means of political dissent in a democracy, I really believe that. If there had ever been a political will to take up arms against the Bush administration, a couple of months preparation would have been plenty.

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:10:04pm

re: #57 MandyManners

Did you get that bit about Judaism? Would she finally get it?

She's their "Pet Jew"

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:10:12pm

re: #60 Guanxi88

But they're not talking about HER, you understand.

There is none so blind...

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:10:22pm

Oath Keepers members concerned about a 'dictatorship' happening here might find it more helpful to our democratic institutions to look at ways to increase eligible voter turnout. Of course that's not as much fun as fondling your weapon.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:11:13pm

re: #65 Alouette

She's their "Pet Jew"

I don't think those assholes mentioned in the article would think so.

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:11:13pm

re: #59 Gus 802

The usual suspects:

About OathKeeper Founder Stewart Rhodes

Worse, a very intelligent, well-connected suspect; they're the worst kind. Gimme a slobbering idiot at the head of a militant org any day. Cagey fellow like that will be able to dance on the razor's edge of legality for ages, do his damage, and never be accountable legally.

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:11:34pm

10 bucks says they're anti-vaxxers while we're at it.

Kronocide Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:12:10pm

re: #40 ~Fianna

That's very close to 1%'ers from motorcycle gangs. Great idea!

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:12:43pm

re: #67 jaunte

Oath Keepers members concerned about a 'dictatorship' happening here might find it more helpful to our democratic institutions to look at ways to increase eligible voter turnout. Of course that's not as much fun as fondling your weapon.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

Democracy is hard. Fantasizing about combat is fun. Actual combat is often not fun.

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:13:01pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

Worse, a very intelligent, well-connected suspect; they're the worst kind. Gimme a slobbering idiot at the head of a militant org any day. Cagey fellow like that will be able to dance on the razor's edge of legality for ages, do his damage, and never be accountable legally.

Yeah. Looks like there's some kind of ideological convergence going on here too. Considering that he's speaking about "enemy combatant status."

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:13:28pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

Worse, a very intelligent, well-connected suspect; they're the worst kind. Gimme a slobbering idiot at the head of a militant org any day. Cagey fellow like that will be able to dance on the razor's edge of legality for ages, do his damage, and never be accountable legally.

funny you should say that, I was just thinking guns are out & lawyers are in...

William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:13:58pm

I still consider myself bound by my military oath as well. Y'all fit the definition of a "domestic enemy" of the constitution quite well.

I'm just saying.

William

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:14:57pm

re: #50 recusancy

Read the comments on it... Many say that it's Obama's fault that there are threats because he's "bankrupting the country".

Hey... I didn't even have to read the comments and yet I had a good idea what is in there...

While I love to trumpet my prescience, in this case it is about as obvious as what happens when one puts a can of fresh tuna in front of a hungry cat...

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:16:42pm

re: #57 MandyManners

Did you get that bit about Judaism? Would she finally get it?

Selective blindness seems to be a Geller specialty.

Fenris Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:17:22pm

Ah, how I miss the eighties, when conspiracy theories were just Satanic child abuse and barcodes on your forehead.

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:17:32pm

re: #64 suchislife

that the left has put down the gun,

Guns by another name

[Link: theplumline.whorunsgov.com...]
(pdf)

And explosives

[Link: seeker401.wordpress.com...]

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #71 BigPapa

That's very close to 1%'ers from motorcycle gangs. Great idea!

It's cool to be part of a group that's smart enough to see things the rest of the sheep don't see, I guess.

I suppose the American values of self-reliance and independence can really be warped in a way that makes groups like this seem like a good idea.

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:18:05pm

re: #78 fenrisdesigns

Ah, how I miss the eighties, when conspiracy theories were just Satanic child abuse and barcodes on your forehead.

60's child here

Grassy Knoll!

Guanxi88 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:18:19pm

re: #64 suchislife

Well, it seems we agree that the left has put down the gun, i.e. made a political decision against violence as a means of dissent and by and large stuck by it, in rhetoric and practice.
...

There will only be individual outbursts and maybe short group actions that the government will destroy like Obama did the fly, no matter how many years they shoot at paper targets.

These bastards have been studying insurgency and counter-insurgency warfare for years. They intend nothing but individual or small-group actions. These actions will not be co-ordinated, but will be mutually reinforcing; a shared ideology is usually sufficient to create the requisite levels of cohesion necessary to keep a "movement" alive when there's no communication between and among members or groups. Leaderless resistance, it's called, and it's the hardest kind to fight. Look at what was required to put an end to this kinda stuff in iraq, and note, too, that we've only succeeded in tamping it down, not really in ending it. Note, too, that the geography of Iraq and its population suggest that similar strategy, adopted on a continental scale here in the US, among a larger, more mobile population, would be even less easily suppressed. All that's needed for this assymetrical style of resistance is that it continue - there are no great battles, only an endless string of un-coordinated (and therefore unpredictable) attacks and actions. These, in turn, lead to the need, as part of counter-insurgency operations, for the legal and military authorities in a given area of operations to restrict mobility and such to the locals, which creates resentment against the government, creating a more favorable environment for the insurgents.

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:19:00pm

re: #74 brookly red

funny you should say that, I was just thinking guns are out & lawyers are in...

Couldn't resist.

Youtube Video

Eclectic Infidel Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:19:20pm

re: #17 kellygrrrl

The Oath Keepers are some of the most dangerous of the militia groups out there today. Their YouTube postings are beyond bizarre and frightening. Most of them get pulled before too long.
They are the group who posted the WARNING youtube that they would declare war if Obama didn't leave the country by Oct. 15

Just talk. Richard Gere said he'd flee the US if Bush took office and he's still here. *sighs*

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:19:54pm

re: #84 eclectic infidel

Just talk. Richard Gere said he'd flee the US if Bush took office and he's still here. *sighs*

I thought that was Alec Baldwin!

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:20:23pm

re: #77 austin_blue

Selective blindness seems to be a Geller specialty.

She needs to take off the blinds.

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:20:36pm

re: #70 Gus 802

10 bucks says they're anti-vaxxers while we're at it.

They are. The front page has lots of stuff about preventing Unconsitutional forced vaccinations.

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:20:48pm

re: #83 MandyManners

Couldn't resist.

classic

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:21:07pm

re: #85 Sattv4u2

I thought that was Alec Baldwin!

Gere said he'd pack up his hamster and leave.

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:22:02pm

re: #84 eclectic infidel

Just talk. Richard Gere said he'd flee the US if Bush took office and he's still here. *sighs*

One guy I know finally did move to Canada. He moved because he left my best friend from college for a Canadian woman.

My friend is on good terms with him now, and it was certainly for the best that the marriage ended, but I still kind of hope he freezes his buns off in Toronto.

All the people who were gonna go for political reasons are still here.

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:22:31pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Gere said he'd pack up his hamster and leave.

Dear Richard

If you need a ride to the airport, just call.

P.S. ,, Leave the hamster with us. He's an innocent in all this and hasn't much liked his life of late!

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:22:54pm

re: #87 ~Fianna

They are. The front page has lots of stuff about preventing Unconsitutional forced vaccinations.

Yeah, I also found this at Flickr.

Will your governor incur the wrath of a few million people in his/her state with some declaration of forced vaccination? Have any of them considered our Oath Keepers, many who serve in the National Guard who do not want their family shot up with a deadly cocktail for corporate profits? Swine Flu Vaccine Makers to Profit $50 Billion a Year.

carefulnow Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:22:58pm

Who was the one who said she would crawl on broken glass...?

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:23:03pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Gere said he'd pack up his hamster and leave.

Dan Savage thinks gerbilling is a myth. Having seen his reasoning, I tend to agree.

Apropos of nothing at all...

mikedmoon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:23:13pm

Wonder what their take on the war on drugs is

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:23:23pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

These bastards have been studying insurgency and counter-insurgency warfare for years. They intend nothing but individual or small-group actions. These actions will not be co-ordinated, but will be mutually reinforcing; a shared ideology is usually sufficient to create the requisite levels of cohesion necessary to keep a "movement" alive when there's no communication between and among members or groups. Leaderless resistance, it's called, and it's the hardest kind to fight. Look at what was required to put an end to this kinda stuff in iraq, and note, too, that we've only succeeded in tamping it down, not really in ending it. Note, too, that the geography of Iraq and its population suggest that similar strategy, adopted on a continental scale here in the US, among a larger, more mobile population, would be even less easily suppressed. All that's needed for this assymetrical style of resistance is that it continue - there are no great battles, only an endless string of un-coordinated (and therefore unpredictable) attacks and actions. These, in turn, lead to the need, as part of counter-insurgency operations, for the legal and military authorities in a given area of operations to restrict mobility and such to the locals, which creates resentment against the government, creating a more favorable environment for the insurgents.

This is why a standing military is remarkably unsuited to fight this kind of domestic insurgency. What works is pure and simple investigative police work, understanding that your enemy may be better armed than you are during the investigative phase. Once identified, power can be brought to bear.

It's a booger of a problem, but a traditional military model cannot be expected to succeed.

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:23:37pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Gere said he'd pack up his hamster and leave.

Oops. Gerbil.

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:23:55pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

mikedmoon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:24:09pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

All the people who were gonna go for political reasons are still here.

Kind of funny since our current government is run by the Conservative Party.

100

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:24:26pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Oops. Gerbil.

Gerbilist!

101

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #99 mikedmoon

Kind of funny since our current government is run by the Conservative Party.

But you're so COOL! And Conservative there isn't like Conservative here, it's like, different, man.

102

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:25:11pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

But you're so COOL! And Conservative there isn't like Conservative here, it's like, different, man.

Did that need a tag?

103

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:25:46pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

One guy I know finally did move to Canada. He moved because he left my best friend from college for a Canadian woman.

My friend is on good terms with him now, and it was certainly for the best that the marriage ended, but I still kind of hope he freezes his buns off in Toronto.

All the people who were gonna go for political reasons are still here.

/and the ones who did leave always come back for health care...

104

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:27:04pm

re: #103 brookly red

/and the ones who did leave always come back for ~~health care~~ NFL football...

Canadian League???

3 downs?

110 yard field???

105

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:27:31pm

re: #104 Sattv4u2

Canadian League???

3 downs?

110 yard field???

TWO teams with the same name !?!?!?!?!

106

really grumpy big dog Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:27:35pm

Once upon a time as a republican I thought that I tended toward the conservative sector of the party, with the possible exception of my social views, which tend to lean a bit more to the liberal side.

But I don't recognize and refuse to recognize these types of folks as members of the same party as that to which I belong.

If people want to tread the paths of treachery and insanity, then I don't think the party has to go with them. Thus the GOP effectively is shattered, smashed to pieces by right wing radicals who envision that they are the leaders of a party that truthfully wants nothing to do with them.

There will either be a reformed GOP or something else, but it's clear to me that in the current climate, what is being proclaimed as my party is an obscene illegitimacy, and must expire from its own insanity.

107

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:28:05pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

But you're so COOL! And Conservative there isn't like Conservative here, it's like, different, man.

In some ways, it is. They don't have the large presence of the kind of anti-science, anti-choice, anti-gay nutty conservative that we have here.

108

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:28:46pm

Anyone post this craziness?

Will not ‘follow orders’ to wage war on Americans

As the national security threat of fascist martial law has risen to a new level, #6 Code Red Alert, due to looming H1N1 medical militarization, Oath Keepers emerged and is now recruiting military, reserves, National Guard, peace officer personnel, plus veterans who swore an oath to support and 'defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic' - and meant it.

Four years after a militarized Katrina, the entire U.S. faces a similar manufactured humanitarian disaster due to the military-phamaceutical H1N1 program and predicted economic collapse. Oath Keepers aim to prevent this pending war on the people.

As reports emerge that medical and military personnel were 'just following orders' to torture, Oath Keepers affirm to instead defend the Constitution.

“Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and that oath will be kept. We won’t ‘just follow orders,’" says Stewart Rhodes, Founder of Oath Keepers.

109

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:28:57pm

re: #96 austin_blue

This is why a standing military is remarkably unsuited to fight this kind of domestic insurgency. What works is pure and simple investigative police work, understanding that your enemy may be better armed than you are during the investigative phase. Once identified, power can be brought to bear.

It's a booger of a problem, but a traditional military model cannot be expected to succeed.

The problem would be keeping your good investigators alive. These guys are burrowed into some police departments. They might well be able to simply eliminate a good portion of the best investigators, or convince them to turn on the government. The problem of former military turned insurgents is a nasty one. As an example, one might look to the Zetas of Mexico who have caused the government there all sorts of trouble.

110

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:28:59pm

re: #104 Sattv4u2

Canadian League???

3 downs?

110 yard field???

well they can get the NFL there too? or is someone lying down on the job?

111

really grumpy big dog Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:29:52pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Active Duty Troops In Iraq Are Wearing Oath Keeper Tabs: “… what we are wearing while over here in Iraq”

Can anyone explain this? Wouldn't the uniform code prohibit this? Fake?

It's prohibited, but in a slack unit it "could" happen...

112

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:30:06pm

There's a religious nature to this whole movement that isn't confronted enough. Indeed, what is often crowed about (in the right-o-sphere) as "American Exceptionalism" is principally a religious belief.

Part and parcel of all of these groups is a National-religion, with a generic God (or in certain contexts, a generic "Christ") that divinely inspired the Constitution ( == "Testament" ).

That is why Beck can so easily sell his religio-nationalism, with his variant being the Mormon God, but for the purpose of his book sales he doesn't have to stress the "Mormon" adjective.

The Oath Keepers made an oath in the name of their "God". While we might find a few atheists here and there among the group, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming number of the Oath Keepers adhere to the National-Religion and do believe they made an oath to "God."

"American Exceptionalism" is getting strong play right now in the right-o-sphere... Since President Obama does not believe in such a doctrine he is the target of a great deal of vehemence from those whose religion is being ignored or even dismissed by the President.

113

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:30:14pm

re: #79 Sattv4u2

I never said they now only vote and demonstrate peacefully. Would you equate property damage and cyber attacks with armed resistance (which the right so far has only threatened)?
Also, I just read the Wiki entry on Elf, and apparently, their "guidelines require that individuals or groups acting on its behalf "take all necessary precautions against harming any animal — human and nonhuman"".
I'm not saying what they're doing is ok, but bombs by another name, really?

114

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:30:15pm

re: #103 brookly red

/and the ones who did leave always come back for health care...

Well, sure. What right thinking Canadian *wouldn't* want to come to the US for health care knowing that the total cost would come out of their pocket?

;-)

115

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:30:31pm

re: #106 really grumpy big dog Johnson

You may find the Modern Whig Party interesting.

Whig video

116

J.S. Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:30:47pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

they can't really be compared...(makes no sense, really -- totally different histories...no 2nd Amendment, no 1st Amendment for that matter in Canada...there are no "fights" about guns, abortions, gay marriages, etc, etc.)

117

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:31:10pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

Warning : NUTBALL Militia Site - check for the flag on the sidebar, learn to recognize three percent assholes defacing our flag.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

118

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:32:02pm

re: #106 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Once upon a time as a republican I thought that I tended toward the conservative sector of the party, with the possible exception of my social views, which tend to lean a bit more to the liberal side.

But I don't recognize and refuse to recognize these types of folks as members of the same party as that to which I belong.

If people want to tread the paths of treachery and insanity, then I don't think the party has to go with them. Thus the GOP effectively is shattered, smashed to pieces by right wing radicals who envision that they are the leaders of a party that truthfully wants nothing to do with them.

There will either be a reformed GOP or something else, but it's clear to me that in the current climate, what is being proclaimed as my party is an obscene illegitimacy, and must expire from its own insanity.

These guys are to conservatives what ANSWER is to me--except, as people have pointed out, with guns. We need a more sophisticated political language to describe all these nutjobs.

119

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:32:37pm

re: #108 Gus 802

I wonder if active duty military members are being encouraged to to refuse H1N1 vaccinations? i think that would be interfering with national security.

A vaccine targeting the novel Influenza A(H1N1) virus is being developed and may be available as early as October 2009. The Department of Defense will receive vaccine from the DoD stockpile, as well as national stockpiles. With few exceptions, use of these doses of vaccine from both stockpiles is to protect those responsible for completing DoD operational missions. This vaccine may be allocated to Active Duty members, Reservists, federalized National Guard, DoD civilians, and contractors. The amount of vaccine for other segments of the DoD community will be determined according to national allocation guidance based on existing policy and changes in disease epidemiology.[Link: www.vaccines.mil...]

120

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:32:38pm

re: #117 Thanos

Warning : NUTBALL Militia Site - check for the flag on the sidebar, learn to recognize three percent assholes defacing our flag.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Defacing our flag and calling it their battle flag?

121

Splatt Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:32:51pm

Any of you guys ever hear of july4patriot, youtube sensation? He started releasing videos back in March or April, when he was still an active duty marine, where in them he was masked and giving rousing speeches - set to the music from Last of the Mohicans - that pretty much called for sedition and everybody arming themselves and rising up against the Federal Government, etc. etc. He's since been discharged and unmasked and now he's inviting people to come to his training camp in Oklahoma and prepare for the coming revolution. Yawn. He DOES have thousands of followers on youtube, and it IS pretty creepy, in a Timothy McVeigh 2.0 kind of way.

This is the original video that started it all...

Youtube Video

122

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:33:08pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

The problem would be keeping your good investigators alive. These guys are burrowed into some police departments. They might well be able to simply eliminate a good portion of the best investigators, or convince them to turn on the government. The problem of former military turned insurgents is a nasty one. As an example, one might look to the Zetas of Mexico who have caused the government there all sorts of trouble.

I don't favor legalizing drugs, but removing the profit may just be the way it has to go...

123

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:33:13pm

re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist

These guys are to conservatives what ANSWER is to me--except, as people have pointed out, with guns. We need a more sophisticated political language to describe all these nutjobs.

"Assholes" works for me.

124

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:33:42pm

re: #113 suchislife

Would you equate property damage and cyber attacks with armed resistance

Not at all. Every one of these gun toting whackos must be watched carefully. But as you stated they ahve thuis far only threatened, thank God

Meanwhile, the ELF may very well state that all precuations should be taken, but once a 300-1100 foot radio tower starts to fall, there's no way to stop it if someone gets in the way, or if it falls a few degrees from "safe" And these HAVE been done, not threatened

125

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:33:51pm

re: #117 Thanos

Warning : NUTBALL Militia Site - check for the flag on the sidebar, learn to recognize three percent assholes defacing our flag.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Sheesh, Thanos, thanks.

I thought the flag was a 3rd Corps or 3rd ID flag. You are, of course, correct.

126

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:34:12pm

re: #123 MandyManners

I would say "Morons."

127

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:34:21pm

The Homeland Security memo about right wing groups doesn't seem so crazy now, does it?

128

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:34:42pm

re: #117 Thanos

Warning : NUTBALL Militia Site - check for the flag on the sidebar, learn to recognize three percent assholes defacing our flag.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Cheerleading for political assassination. See the rifle image with the caption "I still get to vote."

129

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:35:03pm

re: #119 jaunte

I wonder if active duty military members are being encouraged to to refuse H1N1 vaccinations? i think that would be interfering with national security.

I imagine they would be depending on the extent of their influence. I searched for some kind of advisory for "Oath Keepers" and "Three Percenters" in the MIL sites and found nothing.

130

reine.de.tout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:35:17pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Waiting for people to start complaining about the Southern Poverty Law Center.

3...2...1...

aw. . . you took the fun away.

131

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:35:51pm

Gotta' take The Kid to Bible Bowl. Our church's group is winning!

132

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:36:15pm

I suppose there are still people out there who will say that the DHS report was way off base and uncalled for?

133

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:36:25pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

We are occupying Iraq. Fighting insurgents in a country not your own, when the general population thinks you're satan is not the same as dealing with home grown terrorists in the US. I can't believe you actually think these people could command anything like the Iraqi resistance to the American troops. The opposition to Obama got some 70 000 people to march on Washington, that's it. That's the same as the gay rights demonstration a few weeks later. But you think militias rebelling would actually get any backing from the general population?

134

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:36:31pm

re: #131 MandyManners

Is that football or is it bowling?

135

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:36:38pm

re: #115 Ojoe

Hi
Love to chat with you about this new party. Since its not a topic today, click my nic and drop me a line sometime. I have a few questions that would be O/T here.

136

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:36:51pm

re: #127 freetoken

The Homeland Security memo about right wing groups doesn't seem so crazy now, does it?

Oh, dear. The memo makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it? They certainly must have had an inkling of groups like this.

They must be identified and excised from the military like a tumor.

137

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:37:12pm

re: #129 Gus 802

I imagine they would be depending on the extent of their influence. I searched for some kind of advisory for "Oath Keepers" and "Three Percenters" in the MIL sites and found nothing.

From this search it looks like it's definitely on their little list:
[Link: www.google.com...]

138

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:37:40pm

OT: I didn't know before the game started but New England is wearing throwback uniforms today. The same kind they were wearing when the Bears kicking their asses back in 1985. Ah memories...

139

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:37:54pm

re: #136 austin_blue

Militia groups have been around for a very long time. However, hatred of the Obamas energizes them like nothing before.

140

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:38:03pm

re: #134 Ojoe

Is that football or is it bowling?

Bible Bowl

Two teams line up opposite each other and throw different versions of the bible at each other

Last kid standing wins!

141

sagehen Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:38:12pm

re: #44 lostlakehiker

There was then some reason for such a fear, though in the end nothing came of it. Now, there is no real grounds for such a fear. Since none of what they fear is going to happen, this whole Oath Keepers business won't come to anything.

And they can claim VICTORY!! that it didn't happen. Because obviously their efforts are the only reason the Fema camps were cancelled.

(also, I snap my fingers 40 times per minute to keep tigers from materializing on 6th avenue and mauling tourists. It's a strain on my ability to carry on a normal life, but one must have one's priorities. So far, it seems to be working.)

142

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:38:17pm

re: #132 Thanos

I suppose there are still people out there who will say that the DHS report was way off base and uncalled for?

We'll have to wait for a new thread before they start commenting.

143

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:38:49pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

OT: I didn't know before the game started but New England is wearing throwback uniforms today. The same kind they were wearing when the Bears kicking their asses back in 1985. Ah memories...

STFU

That game never happened, , and if it did, the Pats were winning 3-0 before it didn't happen!!

144

lostlakehiker Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:39:17pm

re: #48 jaunte

I wonder what Magic 8-Ball this guy will consult to determine that, if the results of free elections aren't good enough for him?

This remark presumes that "this guy" won't accept the results of free elections. What if he's cool with any result that free elections serve up? What if he's just worried that we'll have election fraud on a scale that would make Ahmadinejad or Karzai blush? The Democrats aren't that hot on free elections, or they wouldn't be pushing "card check" unionization. So it's at least arguable that Democrats aren't any friends of democracy, and that indeed eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

145

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:39:29pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

I've seen about ten "throwback" jersey games this year.

Novelty has worn off.

146

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:39:39pm

re: #135 Rightwingconspirator

OK will do that sometime.

I'm the only Whig in my county, I think, & I am not a "Big Whig".

But I will tell you what I think.

I found the MWP because as a history buff I googled Whig Party to see if they were still around.

And Lo and Behold, they had returned.

147

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:39:41pm

re: #113 suchislife

I never said they now only vote and demonstrate peacefully. Would you equate property damage and cyber attacks with armed resistance (which the right so far has only threatened)?
Also, I just read the Wiki entry on Elf, and apparently, their "guidelines require that individuals or groups acting on its behalf "take all necessary precautions against harming any animal — human and nonhuman"".
I'm not saying what they're doing is ok, but bombs by another name, really?

Earth First! did carry out some tree spiking in the 80s I believe. Their major actions recently have all been arson and economic attacks, that I'm aware of. Anyone know of violence against people they've done in the past twenty years?

148

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:39:44pm

re: #140 Sattv4u2

Bible Bowl

Two teams line up opposite each other and throw different versions of the bible at each other

Last kid standing wins!

/I think King James has the most take down power...

149

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:09pm

re: #140 Sattv4u2

Bible Bowl

Two teams line up opposite each other and throw different versions of the bible at each other

Last kid standing wins!

Kid throws a mean Guttenberg!

150

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:10pm

re: #117 Thanos

Warning : NUTBALL Militia Site - check for the flag on the sidebar, learn to recognize three percent assholes defacing our flag.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

As an aside, the gun depicted on their page is a Liberator, a .45cal WWII assassination pistol built by GM and dropped into occupied Europe.

151

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:16pm

re: #144 lostlakehiker

This remark presumes that "this guy" won't accept the results of free elections. What if he's cool with any result that free elections serve up?

I think you're an optimist.

152

Ojoe Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:23pm

BBL

153

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:30pm

re: #148 brookly red

/I think King James has the most take down power...

Large Print Version, Family Bible Style!

154

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:40:49pm

re: #124 Sattv4u2

the ELF may very well state that all precuations should be taken, but once a 300-1100 foot radio tower starts to fall, there's no way to stop it if someone gets in the way, or if it falls a few degrees from "safe"

I agree. I'm just saying, being criminally careless about people's safety and destroying other people's property can be done in spite of a real political commitment to "put down the gun".

155

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:41:13pm

re: #143 Sattv4u2

STFU

That game never happened, , and if it did, the Pats were winning 3-0 before it didn't happen!!

//

LOL!

156

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:41:23pm

37 to nothing...

ugh.

157

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:42:30pm

re: #140 Sattv4u2

Bible Bowl

Two teams line up opposite each other and throw different versions of the bible at each other

Last kid standing wins!

Reminds me of the moment in "Saved"--the mean girl yells "I am FILLED with God's love!" and throws her bible at the other girl.

/Bible Bowl sounds fun. Go Mandy's Church, go!

158

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:42:56pm

re: #139 freetoken

I have the impression this is a cyclical phenomenon. I lived to see Bill Ayers and his bunch in the news of the day and Tim McVeigh and the topic today. Using the term very loosely-I felt the Ruby Ridge incident was both. A 5th amendment sniper on the left anf the family on the right. I have witnessed left wing violence (not guns or bombs-rocks and frozen waters!) firsthand at the Los Angeles DNC. Now its right wing. "My" (gag) side of the aisle. At risk of sounding a suck up-
Thanks for the topic today.

159

J.S. Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:43:57pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

CNN just a few weeks ago (or perhaps not that long ago) filed a report about an arsonist with some radical environmental group...(He did a plea bargain and was kept out of jail...) (There are also some radical PETA type groups in Britain -- arsonists who have threatened the lives of scientists -- they tend to burn down research labs which house animals, etc.)

160

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:44:31pm

re: #139 freetoken

Militia groups have been around for a very long time. However, hatred of the Obamas energizes them like nothing before.

I think the difference is that they are proud to make their presence known in the military *while on active duty*.

McVeigh, if you recall, didn't get radicalized until after he got out and realized he had a micro-chip in his ass.

(Cue Twilight Zone soundtrack here.)

161

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #154 suchislife

being criminally careless about people's safety and destroying other people's property

Careless? You make it sound as if they left the oven on when they went outside for an hour!
It's a calculated form of terrorism

Does it rise to the level of an Oklahoma City? Of course not! But it comes out of the same playbook

162

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:44:46pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

As an aside, the gun depicted on their page is a Liberator, a .45cal WWII assassination pistol built by GM and dropped into occupied Europe.

/ I think we used to make those in metal shop...

163

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:45:10pm

Here's the speakers list at the upcoming conference, and why you vote against Bill Hunt for Sheriff in Orange County

Oath Keepers Conference Update List of Speakers
Sheriff Richard Mack
Sheriff Mark Gower, Iron County, UT
Orange County, CA Sheriffs Candidate – Bill Hunt
National 9/12 Project Founder – Patrick Jenkins
Oath Keepers Founder Stewart Rhodes
Oath Keepers National Peace Officer Liaison – Dave Freeman, Las Vegas Metro (RET)
Active Duty LCDR David R Gillie, U.S. Navy
Maj. Rex McTyeire, U.S. Army Special Forces (RET)

Also note the active duty L. Commander in the line up.

164

ryannon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:45:20pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

As an aside, the gun depicted on their page is a Liberator, a .45cal WWII assassination pistol built by GM and dropped into occupied Europe.

Thanks for that: I was wondering what the hell it was...

165

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:46:11pm

re: #163 Thanos

And a couple active sheriffs?!
WTF?

166

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:48:45pm

More anti-vax craziness:

Oath Keepers Unite! Road Block Plans Under Way; Force People To Take Vaccines...
Former Kansas State Trooper Greg Evensen reports that there are plans for road-blocks to force vaccines with military personnel putting bracelets on people. Those who refuse to take the steel band with a microchip will be put on a prison bus and taken to a quarantine camp.
Evensen also says he believes that many law enforcement officers will reject using this “Gestapo” approach on their fellow citizens, and will question the legitimacy of the orders of what looks like a bunch of criminals in federal government who appear to be seeking to retain their grip on power by setting up an apparatus of state terror, all too reminiscent of that if Nazi Germany where the inmates of concentration camps like Buchenwald were killed by injections in the heart.

Law enforcement officers anxious to restore law and order and arrest really dangerous criminals should look no further than at the people sitting in the top echelons of government, he hints.

“Have you been made aware of the massive roadblock plans to stop all travelers for a vaccine bracelet (stainless steel band with a micro-chip on board) that will force you to take the shot? Refuse it? You will be placed on a prison bus and taken to a quarantine camp. What will you do when your children are NOT allowed into school without the shot? What will you do when you are not allowed into the workplace without the vaccine paperwork? Buy groceries? Go to the bank? Shop anywhere?? Get on a plane, bus or train? Use the toilet in the mall? Nope. Police officers will become loathed, feared, despised and remembered for their “official” duties,”
[Link: www.facebook.com...]

167

Kragar Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:48:57pm

Is their anthem "dueling banjos"?

168

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:49:35pm

re: #144 lostlakehiker

This remark presumes that "this guy" won't accept the results of free elections. What if he's cool with any result that free elections serve up? What if he's just worried that we'll have election fraud on a scale that would make Ahmadinejad or Karzai blush? The Democrats aren't that hot on free elections, or they wouldn't be pushing "card check" unionization. So it's at least arguable that Democrats aren't any friends of democracy, and that indeed eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

In other words, no election that an Democrat wins is a free election.

/That is where we go right to with that, right?

169

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:50:28pm

re: #146 Ojoe

OK will do that sometime.

I'm the only Whig in my county, I think, & I am not a "Big Whig".

But I will tell you what I think.

I found the MWP because as a history buff I googled Whig Party to see if they were still around.

And Lo and Behold, they had returned.

Ojoe, you are the biggest Whig I know.

170

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:51:26pm

re: #154 suchislife

The violence of property destruction on a big scale-like housing developments, radio towers, Humvees at dealerships makes the "slippery slope cliche inadequate. Ski jump without the up maybe. Wrecking labs with animals in them ranks right in there.

171

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:51:34pm

re: #161 Sattv4u2

I clearly stated that they deliberately destroy property, that's not a mistake or an oversight, it's an act of vandalism. They didn't forget their own oven, they made another one's oven explode to make a political statement.
I added that they are criminally careless about the safety of other people. This I don't actually know, I do think it's possible to topple large structures safely, but I think they probably accepted a certain risk, and obviously they can't use the normal safety measures.
Do you disagree with this assessment?

172

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:51:43pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Ojoe, you are the biggest Whig I know.

there is more than one??

173

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:51:55pm

re: #153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Large Print Version, Family Bible Style!

Anyone seen the "My Name Is Earl" episode where he has to deal with the old lady whose son he sent to prison?

(She has the biggest large print Bible EVER, and she knocks him out with he. He had it coming.)

174

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:52:51pm

re: #159 J.S.

CNN just a few weeks ago (or perhaps not that long ago) filed a report about an arsonist with some radical environmental group...(He did a plea bargain and was kept out of jail...) (There are also some radical PETA type groups in Britain -- arsonists who have threatened the lives of scientists -- they tend to burn down research labs which house animals, etc.)

They're big on arson. Please note, I am not defending these people in any way, shape or form.

175

The Sanity Inspector Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:53:04pm

re: #114 austin_blue

Well, sure. What right thinking Canadian *wouldn't* want to come to the US for health care knowing that the total cost would come out of their pocket?

;-)

Time is money.

176

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:53:15pm

re: #166 jaunte

It really started way back with Bo Gritz. The usual suspects: Christian Identists and White Supremacists

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

177

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:53:16pm

Ed Morrisey gets a call on the clue phone...
A few final thoughts from Western CPAC

First, the event did not turn out a large number of attendees despite its third year in existence, showing that not much momentum has been made by the organizers. The exhibitor “hall” consisted of about five vendors, one of whom got kicked out (more later on that). The agenda included activist such as birthers and impeachment activists, along with candidates who did their best to distance themselves from them.
...
The general theme of the conference appeared to be mainly a sales job for the personal benefit of the sponsors, and not the promotion of real conservative ideas. And quite frankly, after spending several hundred dollars to attend an event just to be told that dissent is “the heighth of rudeness” and that bloggers should shut up and defer to their movement elders was just a little too much too take.

I won’t return to events sponsored by the same organizations in the future.

Quacks and assorted nuts are exploiting the hapless conservatives? Shocka!

178

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:54:52pm

re: #177 Killgore Trout

...3 comments in an Charles hijacks another thread...

This is why the attacks on Hot Air from Charles Johnson and others are so ridiculous. Ed, Allah and Michelle are not mind-numbed robots…they tell it like it is.

Thanks for all you do, Ed.

Jim-Rose on October 18, 2009 at 5:43 PM

179

bratwurst Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:54:53pm

re: #176 Thanos

It really started way back with Bo Gritz.

AKA the real life Rambo!

180

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:02pm

re: #176 Thanos

It really started way back with Bo Gritz.

Now there is a name I haven't heard in a quite a while.

181

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:31pm

re: #134 Ojoe

Is that football or is it bowling?

Knowledge. Each kid takes a chapter in a book and is tested on it.

182

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:33pm

re: #176 Thanos

Thanks for the flag pic upthread. The Tea Parties are using a lot of strange/colonial era flags and I wonder how many times I've seen that one and didn't know what it was.

183

Right Brain Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:35pm

This is hysterical. Has anyone bought the movie rights?

184

Kragar Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:45pm

Oh for Christ's sake, ignore the huge stockpiles of Hezballah weapons, the UN bitches about this:

Israel may have planted spy gear in Lebanon: U.N.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - A U.N. investigation into explosions in south Lebanon indicated on Sunday that Israel had planted spy devices on Lebanese land in what a senior U.N. official said would be a violation of a ceasefire agreement.

The UNIFIL peacekeeping force in Lebanon said its preliminary probe into two explosions in the south showed they had been caused by the detonation of underground sensor devices.

The units were apparently buried by Israeli forces during the 2006 war with the Lebanese Shi'ite group Hezbollah, it said.

Fuck you UN.

185

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:56:58pm

re: #171 suchislife

It is possible to topple structures safely. Happens every day
What it takes is lots of planning, original blue prints, environemental impact studies, LOTS of experst from many different feilds, not the least of which is demolition
Engineers
Public Safety
Debris removal

Did ELF take all the needed precautions above before their "careless" act? Do they have all those experts on staff?

186

jaunte Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:58:02pm

re: #176 Thanos

It really started way back with Bo Gritz. The usual suspects: Christian Identists and White Supremacists

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

/There's that respect for law again:

Among other things, SPIKE trainings are designed to enable participants to create so-called "Christian Covenant Communities," which are essentially self-sufficient, paramilitary enclaves within which patriots can enact their own laws and dispense their own brand of justice, separate from what they believe to be illegally constituted authority [the legitimate authority of lawmakers]. Gritz and his colleague, Gerald "Jack" McLamb have begun major construction on one such community in central Idaho, near the small town of Kamiah.

187

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:58:08pm

re: #52 Ojoe

Oathkeepers can kiss my ...
Guns are for sport, and defense, not madcap racist paranoia.
www.idpa.com

Youtube Video

188

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:58:11pm

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Oh noes!

You know what, Ed?

We had RonPaulians that attempted to hijack a huge Tea Party that I helped organize. They are well organized, fanatical, disruptive, divisive and they cause trouble. That’s exactly what happened to your group.

You will know them when you see them. Pre-printed tee shirts, bumper stickers with “End The Fed”. We were able to deal with the Paulians by publically asking them to leave. The crowed watched them pack up their boxes of tee shirts, their microphones, their tables, their audio speakers, their flags and their pre-printed signs. We marched them down the block and out of the party to the cheers of the true Patriots.

RonPaulians are a dangerous threat because they are not grass roots. They are also very savvy with the internet and apparently have access to information on gatherings, protests and meetings.

Key West Reader on October 18, 2009 at 5:49 PM

Little light bulbs are flickering out there.

189

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:59:17pm

re: #185 Sattv4u2

did you read that I wrote that they cannot take the usual measures, and that therefore I believe they endangered other people, even though I know no specifics?

190

J.S. Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:59:23pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, they're arsonists...(and I didn't think you'd be defending these types.) We also have here in Canada a group (?) which opposes sour gas wells -- and they bomb pipelines -- thus far, no one's been hurt (fortunately). But, the violence is defined as "domestic terrorism" -- even if no one is harmed or killed, it's still classified as "terrorism" -- since these radicals are attempting to sway opinion through fear and violence and intimidation to effect a policy change, they become criminals...So, refusing the use of rational argumentation or some other acceptable political process to win over people to their side is "a problem"..

191

KernelPanic Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:59:32pm

Ahh. Brady throws 5 touchdown passes in one quarter.

192

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:00:11pm

re: #171 suchislife

AND ,,,I'm so happy "they probably accepted a certain risk, "

Would they have turned themselves in to the police if someone HAD died?

193

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:00:13pm

re: #190 J.S.

Yes, they're arsonists...(and I didn't think you'd be defending these types.) We also have here in Canada a group (?) which opposes sour gas wells -- and they bomb pipelines -- thus far, no one's been hurt (fortunately). But, the violence is defined as "domestic terrorism" -- even if no one is harmed or killed, it's still classified as "terrorism" -- since these radicals are attempting to sway opinion through fear and violence and intimidation to effect a policy change, they become criminals...So, refusing the use of rational argumentation or some other acceptable political process to win over people to their side is "a problem"..

Oh, it's definitely terrorism.

194

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:01:41pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

It's such a dysfunctional mess over there as well as within the "conservative" movement... a whole bunch of people with an even larger set of problems...

195

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:01:56pm

re: #191 KernelPanic

Ahh. Brady throws 5 touchdown passes in one quarter.

He kicks ass, that's for sure. If New England gets to the Duper Bowl this year, they'll be hard to beat.

196

sagehen Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:03:10pm

re: #144 lostlakehiker

This remark presumes that "this guy" won't accept the results of free elections. What if he's cool with any result that free elections serve up?

You mean like the election we had just last year? Apparently he's not cool with those results.

197

allegro Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:03:33pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

If New England gets to the Duper Bowl this year, they'll be hard to beat.

No, no, it would be the DUPER Bowl if the Texans got there.

198

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:03:43pm

re: #195 Dark_Falcon

He kicks ass, that's for sure. If New England gets to the Super Bowl this year, they'll be hard to beat.

PIMF

199

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:04:18pm

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

PIMF

I thought Mark DUPER was still playing there for a moment!

200

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:04:46pm

re: #199 Sattv4u2

I thought Mark DUPER was still playing there for a moment!

SMACK!

201

brookly red Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:05:54pm

re: #190 J.S.

"and they bomb pipelines -- "

I think that people who play w/bombs need to do serious time, but hey that's just me.

202

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:06:30pm

re: #178 Killgore Trout

...3 comments in an Charles hijacks another thread...

It proves how irrelevant I've become.

And yet Ed Morrissey and Allahpundit seem to have no awareness at all that their own website has been hijacked by thousands of raving nuts.

They'd rather attack me, and label me as a "leftist" (or some of the other insults Morrissey has tossed at me in Hot Air's comments).

And meanwhile, they're allowing a proven white supremacist to post entries in their Green Room.

I don't think any lights are dawning over there -- Morrissey just had a close encounter with the people he's been encouraging, and it was very unpleasant. Imagine my surprise.

203

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:07:12pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

Oh noes!

Little light bulbs are flickering out there.

These are all good signs

204

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:07:31pm

Stewart Rhodes is a crackpot. Was just listening to a clip of an interview with him on Alex Jones and he mentions the "coming" death camps and concentration camps. Also, on his blog he has an image of the Waco camp burning down.

205

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:08:28pm

re: #192 Sattv4u2

I actually don't think we disagree. I think we just have a different way of stating things. When I said: I believe they are criminally careless, I was saying exactly what you say, that I believe they couldn't take the necessary measures, and that they risked killing people, and that therefore they should be prosecuted (and for the vandalism). When I said: "Probably", I meant that I don't know the particulars, so I don't "know". But obviously I felt I knew enough to accuse them of criminal negligence, which means I think they should be in prison, regardless of their aims and intentions.
I refuse to ratch up my rhetoric, though. Their intent not to harm people is not insignificant. Also, I'm not all that sure that they wouldn't care if people got hurt. They might think they have everything under control, and when they find that's not true (it never is), whose to say what they would do?

206

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:08:34pm

re: #194 freetoken

It's interesting to watch them realize what's going on. It's only a temporary enlightenment. They'll go back to supporting Ron Paul, libertarian nonsense, conspiracy theories and racists. Eventually they'll figure it out but not yet. They have a whole lot of crazy left in them. Also Malkin owns the blog so any real awakening about racists and nuts would get ed and AP replaced.

207

Splatt Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:08:52pm

What I find interesting is that a lot of people make the argument that the right-wing's anger and resentment towards Obama is the same as that of the left's during Bush's presidency. As if there's no distinction. But, if that's the case, how come threats against the President's life are up 400% over those against Bush?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

208

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:10:00pm

re: #186 jaunte

You can also see that Sheriff Mack has been catering to this crowd for quite a while:

One prominent supporter of the militia movement and the far right from the ranks of law enforcement is Sheriff Richard Mack from Graham County, Arizona. Mack has sued the federal government over the Brady Bill, which he refuses to enforce. Mack is widely featured on the militia speaking circuit.

209

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:10:02pm

re: #202 Charles

I don't think any lights are dawning over there -- Morrissey just had a close encounter with the people he's been encouraging, and it was very unpleasant. Imagine my surprise.

Agreed. His display of common sense and decency won't last long. It's interesting to observe even if it is only temporary.

210

really grumpy big dog Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:11:15pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Oh for Christ's sake, ignore the huge stockpiles of Hezballah weapons, the UN bitches about this:

Israel may have planted spy gear in Lebanon: U.N.

Fuck you UN.

I'm done with their lies and jew-hatred. The people who gave us unfathomable thousands dead in Rwanda and sanctioned mass rape in other countries wants to sound an alarm?

Here is my alarm: stick it up your ass, UN.

211

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:11:34pm

We need another Buckley/Birchers moment within the conservative movement. Small government, increased personal freedom does not mean accepting birthers and impeachers as mainstream.
ExUrbanKevin on October 18, 2009 at 6:00 PM

Ya think?
/

212

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:12:02pm

re: #211 Killgore Trout

He left out racists and conspiracy theorists.

213

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:12:14pm

Hello Lizards ... The Patriots are up 45-0 at halftime.

214

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:12:31pm

Ah, that Hot Air thread just made my day.

215

sagehen Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:12:32pm

re: #181 MandyManners

Knowledge. Each kid takes a chapter in a book and is tested on it.

Before the match does the team pray together, "Dear Lord, if it be your will, please make our opponents temporarily selectively amnesiac, let them be made to appear ignorant in the sight of their families and neighbors, in your name amen"

216

Darth Vader Gargoyle Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:14:08pm

re: #129 Gus 802

I imagine they would be depending on the extent of their influence. I searched for some kind of advisory for "Oath Keepers" and "Three Percenters" in the MIL sites and found nothing.

Active Duty Navy here. We still don't have either flu shot available. At this rate, not sure how much help it will be. I have about a dozen folks with various versions of the flu right now (out of 340).

217

MandyManners Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:14:23pm

re: #215 sagehen

Before the match does the team pray together, "Dear Lord, if it be your will, please make our opponents temporarily selectively amnesiac, let them be made to appear ignorant in the sight of their families and neighbors, in your name amen"

Ummm...no.

218

checked08 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:14:49pm

From the comment posted by Fair and Balanced Fred:

...Daniel Knight Hayden, who, after publicizing Oath Keepers material on MySpace and Twitter social-networking sites under the name Citizen Quasar, was arrested in April after posting online that he was “locked and loaded” on the way to a tax-day protest at the Oklahoma State Capitol.
...

Scary true.
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

In a string of confusing and often incoherent statements sent over a four-day period earlier this month, Hayden – using the nickname Citizen Quasar – said he was prepared to die at a planned anti-tax protest in Oklahoma City.

219

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:15:10pm

Mark Steyn has an op-ed out today defending Rush Limbaugh with the same dishonest tactics everyone else has been using -- he focuses on one disputed quote and ignores the MANY other documented racist and race-baiting quotes from Limbaugh.

For example: "Here you have a black president trying to destroy a white policeman."

FLV Video

220

Gus Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:15:33pm

re: #216 rwdflynavy

Active Duty Navy here. We still don't have either flu shot available. At this rate, not sure how much help it will be. I have about a dozen folks with various versions of the flu right now (out of 340).

I got a flu about 1 month ago. Not sure if it was H1N1 but I felt lousy. Coughing too which is still lingering and a low grade fever.

221

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:16:59pm

Sheriff Joe Arpaio is campaigning for a couple of these guys

[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]

222

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:17:31pm

re: #221 Thanos

Sheriff Joe Arpaio is campaigning for a couple of these guys

[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]

Why is that not surprising to me at all?

223

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:17:45pm

re: #219 Charles

Mark Steyn has an op-ed out today defending Rush Limbaugh with the same dishonest tactics everyone else has been using -- he focuses on one disputed quote and ignores the MANY other documented racist and race-baiting quotes from Limbaugh.

For example: "Here you have a black president trying to destroy a white policeman."

[Video]

According to Eugene Robinson, Limbaugh has said that Obama is an example of a reverse racist.

I find this helpful. We've been arguing for some time about what the precise definition of a racist is. Let's go to Limbaugh's example. What the worst thing Obama has said about white people, and how does it stack up against what Limbaugh has said about black people?

224

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:17:56pm

re: #213 _RememberTonyC

Hello Lizards ... The Patriots are up 45-0 at halftime.

52-0

225

Darth Vader Gargoyle Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:19:02pm

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

According to Eugene Robinson, Limbaugh has said that Obama is an example of a reverse racist.

I find this helpful. We've been arguing for some time about what the precise definition of a racist is. Let's go to Limbaugh's example. What the worst thing Obama has said about white people, and how does it stack up against what Limbaugh has said about black people?

He's fairly non-complimentary of folks in Rio Linda. What color folks dominate there?//

226

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:19:39pm

re: #213 _RememberTonyC

Hello Lizards ... The Patriots are up 45-0 at halftime.

Make than 52-0. CBS will probably change to another game soon. This one is just a one-sided massacre.

227

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:19:42pm

re: #224 _RememberTonyC

52-0

Time to empty the bench

228

kellygrrrl Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:24pm

re: #43 armylaw

it was pulled from YouTube pretty quickly, but you can still see it at c&l

[Link: crooksandliars.com...]

229

Charles Johnson Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:25pm

Here's a collection of racist quotes from Limbaugh -- all verified, cited, and attributed:

[Link: soupsoup.tumblr.com...]

230

bratwurst Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:26pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

They may not have another game.

231

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:26pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

Make than 52-0. CBS will probably change to another game soon. This one is just a one-sided massacre.

brady is done for the day

232

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:48pm

re: #227 Sattv4u2

Time to empty the bench

yes sir

233

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:50pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

Make than 52-0. CBS will probably change to another game soon. This one is just a one-sided massacre.

They just did

Jets/ Bills

234

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:20:52pm

re: #225 rwdflynavy

He's fairly non-complimentary of folks in Rio Linda. What color folks dominate there?//

Rio Linda?

235

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:21:03pm

I really wish someone with less anti caucasian bias than Al Sharpton had gotten the air time. It just gave this tit for tat atmosphere to a far darker moment in relations.

236

bratwurst Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:21:21pm

I take it back, got Buffalo and the Jets on here now.

237

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:21:38pm

re: #233 Sattv4u2

They just did

Jets/ Bills

not in connecticut ... at least not yet

238

Darth Vader Gargoyle Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:22:12pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Rio Linda?

Wiki on Rush terms

239

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:22:24pm

re: #236 bratwurst

I take it back, got Buffalo and the Jets on here now.

Here too.

240

Univac Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:22:32pm

re: #207 Splatt

Let me start by saying, threats on the president are bad!

I think its been explored already, but "threats" only count if they are reported. Zombie has already done an expose on the variety of "threats" to Bush during various protests. Obama and his staff are more agressive in idenitfying and persuing threats against the presidency.

241

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:22:33pm

re: #237 _RememberTonyC

not in connecticut ... at least not yet

The New England network affiliates will get the entire Pats game regardless of the score

242

Daniel Ballard Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:23:17pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

Demographics=WIKI

As of the census[3] of 2000, there were 10,466 people, 3,461 households, and 2,647 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 1,911.2 people per square mile (737.4/km²). There were 3,596 housing units at an average density of 656.7/sq mi (253.4/km²). The racial makeup of the CDP was 83.04% White, 2.23% African American, 1.46% Native American, 2.69% Asian, 0.48% Pacific Islander, 4.88% from other races, and 5.22% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 11.10% of the population.

243

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:24:02pm

re: #229 Charles

Limbaugh claims Dems' interest in Darfur is securing black "voting bloc" (with audio)
He even claims Dems put sanctions on South Africa to appease black voters. Yeesh.

244

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:24:26pm

re: #241 Sattv4u2

The New England network affiliates will get the entire Pats game regardless of the score

True. Thankfully, the rest of us won't have to watch the slaughter anymore.

245

_RememberTonyC Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:24:32pm

re: #241 Sattv4u2

The New England network affiliates will get the entire Pats game regardless of the score

i switched to nfl network's red zone

246

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:24:41pm

re: #238 rwdflynavy

Wiki on Rush terms

Ah, thank you. Apparently, per the Wiki link, Rio Linda is about eighty-some percent white. So Rush is a racist in all directions!

/Aaaah.

//No, seriously, the man's a bloody racist.

247

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:25:21pm

re: #240 Univac

Let me start by saying, threats on the president are bad!

I think its been explored already, but "threats" only count if they are reported. Zombie has already done an expose on the variety of "threats" to Bush during various protests. Obama and his staff are more agressive in idenitfying and persuing threats against the presidency.

Bullshit. You think the Secret Service works like that? Total BS.

248

allegro Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:25:39pm

re: #240 Univac

Zombie has already done an expose on the variety of "threats" to Bush during various protests. Obama and his staff are more agressive in idenitfying and persuing threats against the presidency.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the Secret Service deals with the investigation of threats, not the Presidential staff.

249

freetoken Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #229 Charles

I'm repeating myself... but, Limbaugh's schtick has been, for a very long time, to feed the revanchists' anger at what the society in American post 1964 has become.

(BTW, I'm working on synonyms for "revanchist" as I've been using it too much lately...)

Steyn can't admit to what Limbaugh's modus operandi is because, frankly, Steyn would indict himself.

/Wow... I'm picking on Steyn and VDH all in one day... now they will never let me back into the clubhouse...

250

doubter4444 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:26:32pm

re: #144 lostlakehiker

This remark presumes that "this guy" won't accept the results of free elections. What if he's cool with any result that free elections serve up? What if he's just worried that we'll have election fraud on a scale that would make Ahmadinejad or Karzai blush? The Democrats aren't that hot on free elections, or they wouldn't be pushing "card check" unionization. So it's at least arguable that Democrats aren't any friends of democracy, and that indeed eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

"DEmocrats aren't that hot on free and fair elections?"
Fuck you.
That's a not only a lie, it's an excuse to side with the bad guys.

251

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:26:42pm

re: #240 Univac

Let me start by saying, threats on the president are bad

You sure you want to stick your neck out like that?

// (((gggeeezzz!!))

252

Sheila Broflovski Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:27:20pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

Anyone seen the "My Name Is Earl" episode where he has to deal with the old lady whose son he sent to prison?

(She has the biggest large print Bible EVER, and she knocks him out with he. He had it coming.)

We have the Talmud. That's 23 volumes. Big, honkin' heavy volumes.

253

Killgore Trout Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:27:27pm

re: #240 Univac

I think its been explored already, but "threats" only count if they are reported. Zombie has already done an expose on the variety of "threats" to Bush during various protests. Obama and his staff are more agressive in idenitfying and persuing threats against the presidency.

Zombie's report has blatantly dishonest. We provided about a dozen counter examples of protest death threats. She said she was going to update her report but never did. She intentionally and obviously put together a dishonest report. I liked zombie when she was here but that report was a poorly constructed distortion.

254

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:27:58pm

re: #207 Splatt

also, I would argue that the anger of the left was not quite as baseless as the anger of the right is now.
The left believed that the Bush administration had forced them into a war pointing to one rationale, while really being motivated by other reasons. They believed that Bush politized the political institutions like the DoJ and appointed clueless people to crucial positions to please the religious right, resulting in incompetent officials in crucial positions. They thought that the administration, driven by Cheney, relaxed the standards on torture and on the rights of habeus corpus and concerns of privacy. They believed that the governement botched the handling of post war Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina. And they thought that Bush was pretty stupid and not really up to the job of governing America. And all the while for years after 9/11, all critics were liable to be called traitors in all the major networks, leaving them to rely on the internet and the daily show.
One can argue these points, but I don't think one can argue that if someone saw evidence of these things, they would be justifiably mad.
Now, I may be overlooking a lot, but it seems to me that the right is mad because of things they believe Obama is planning to do, or because of some secret hidden identity of his, or else because some democrats think their President is the greatest thing ever. And they have the biggest news network of the nation cheering for them. I don't consider these equally good reasons for a proper political rage, which tends to include Nazi-imagery on the edges, and should include calls for impeachment.

255

Dark_Falcon Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:28:59pm

Bills get an interception. Let's see how they use it.

256

Mich-again Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:30:15pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

BEIRUT (Reuters) - A U.N. investigation into explosions in south Lebanon indicated on Sunday that Israel had planted spy devices on Lebanese land in what a senior U.N. official said would be a violation of a ceasefire agreement.

Hezbollah has planted spy devices on Lebanese land as well. They wear blue helmets.

257

Randall Gross Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:32:44pm

re: #225 rwdflynavy

He's fairly non-complimentary of folks in Rio Linda. What color folks dominate there?//

White, at about 50-65 percent, with the rest of the community hispanic, black, and asian in that order. Here's a breakdown of public and private schools, scroll to bottom

[Link: www.localschooldirectory.com...]

258

armylaw Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:33:20pm

re: #233 Sattv4u2

They just did

Jets/ Bills

As a Bills fan, it is an odd experience for a network to decide my team is in the more competitive game.

259

Mich-again Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:36:09pm

re: #250 doubter4444

Do you agree with card-check union elections? I sure don't.

260

Mich-again Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:36:50pm

re: #258 armylaw

As a Bills fan, it is an odd experience for a network to decide my team is in the more competitive game.

Well, the other game was 52-0 and counting.

261

Univac Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:38:08pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I read that a while back (in a news story). I'm looking for the source.

re: #248 allegro

I agree. My premise (if I read a previousl news story correctly) is that only reported events/threats on the President are investigated.

re: #251 Sattv4u2

So you think threats against the president are good??? From you previous posts, it doesn't sound like it.

262

Sattv4u2 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:42:06pm

re: #261 Univac

Yeah ,, thats what I said ,, I think they're 'good"

YOU think they're "BAD"

My kid was "bad" yesterday. He didn't get off X-Box when I told him too
My dog was "bad" yeasterday. He ripped a piece of paper I left on a chair
My wife was "bad" yeatserday. She ate an extra dessert at an event we were at

Yup ,,, threatening the President of the USA is "bad"!

Schnikies!

263

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:43:06pm

re: #259 Mich-again

what do card check union elections have to do with presidental elections? Do you have any evidence of the democratic party systematically undermining the free election of government officials that would render the idea of them perpetrating election fraud on the level of the last Iraqi election anything other then a paranoid delusion?

264

Univac Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:43:42pm

re: #262 Sattv4u2

Ok. Threats are "bad" and against the law, making them criminal (felonies).

265

Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:45:01pm

Geesh, Glenn Beck really will pander yo ANY audience wont he?

It is laughable of him to get a bunch of guys in white coats together and call them experts on health care administration simply because they practice medicine. Even worse is him using a already outed racist to present this nonsense to the public, surely he knew of the mans background?

Really it is too bad the "men in the white coats" didn't see fit to take him away somewhere to get some "therapy" while they were there.

;)

266

doubter4444 Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:47:46pm

re: #259 Mich-again

Do you agree with card-check union elections? I sure don't.

No I don't.
However, I strongly disagree with the blanket demonizing of all Democrats being Anti-American, which is what he's saying.
It's as stupid as saying all republicans are fascists.
I get so angry at this shit, that's all.
It's intellectually dishonest, lazy and churlish..
Someone saying the same type of crap about the Republican would get ding-bombed like crazy (see Cordell, Dr.)

267

simoom Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:48:46pm

It's always amusing how important it is to these folks to be called non-partisan – whether it be Freedom Works and the Tea Party movement, Glenn Beck and O'Reilly, or these kooky militia / separatist types.

268

Sloppy Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:52:04pm

Forty-some years ago an officer at an Army Reserve drill took a few minutes to try to interest some of us part-time grunts in joining/organizing a militia. Don't remember his talking points. We ignored him and he went away. I hope today's troops would show the same disinterest.

269

MittDoesNotCompute Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:53:37pm

re: #260 Mich-again

Well, the other game was 52-0 and counting.

The Titans are not only having the worst season start since they've been here in Nashville (will be 0-6 after the ongoing massacre at the hands of the Patriots is over), but easily the worst game that I can remember (59-0 at the start of the fourth quarter)...I am am more than a bit disappointed.

/pissed-off Titans fan...

270

Univac Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:56:40pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

I cannot find quickly, but am still looking.
The story went down the road:
Secret Service works like police - if they don't officially hear/learn of the threat, they don't expend effort to fully investigate. It went on to compare the increase in threat reporting with the increase of reporting other crimes (rape) following public training/awareness programs.

271

austin_blue Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:10:26pm

re: #248 allegro

I may be wrong, but I believe that the Secret Service deals with the investigation of threats, not the Presidential staff.

Correct.

272

simoom Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:16:20pm

re: #27 recusancy

Meanwhile the Secret Service is being strained due to
"the unprecedented number of death threats against President Obama, a rise in racist hate groups, and a new wave of antigovernment fervor..."

Sheesh -- the overwhelming majority of the comments to that Boston Globe article are either blaming President Obama for the increase in threats, accusing the paper of exaggerating and attempting to play on racial sympathies, or presenting counter examples to try and argue both sides receive threats and somehow it's Obama making these claims and he's just whining about his safety.

Ever since the Henry Gates story, and all the articles related to it, The Boston Globe's comments section has been a complete cesspool.

273

[deleted] Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:16:45pm

274

anno Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:19:51pm

I'm newer but that's the first time I clicked new comments and it was deleted. funny.

275

Univac Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:29:16pm

ok... I think my last post got deleted.

re: #253 Killgore Trout

Zombie's report has blatantly dishonest. We provided about a dozen counter examples of protest death threats. She said she was going to update her report but never did. She intentionally and obviously put together a dishonest report. I liked zombie when she was here but that report was a poorly constructed distortion.

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

The closest I could find to what I remember is a post on Zombie.
Note I posted the link last time, which may have gotten posted deleted.

If that was the same post that Killgore Trout notes was dishonest, then I have only to hang my head in shame and say, "Never Mind!"

276

eneri Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:29:58pm

cry the beloved country

277

Lidane Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:45:00pm

re: #254 suchislife

The left believed that the Bush administration had forced them into a war pointing to one rationale, while really being motivated by other reasons. They believed that Bush politized the political institutions like the DoJ and appointed clueless people to crucial positions to please the religious right, resulting in incompetent officials in crucial positions. They thought that the administration, driven by Cheney, relaxed the standards on torture and on the rights of habeus corpus and concerns of privacy. They believed that the governement botched the handling of post war Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina. And they thought that Bush was pretty stupid and not really up to the job of governing America. And all the while for years after 9/11, all critics were liable to be called traitors in all the major networks, leaving them to rely on the internet and the daily show.
One can argue these points, but I don't think one can argue that if someone saw evidence of these things, they would be justifiably mad.

All true, at least for me. However, it took me a while to really get hopping mad at Dubya. When he first took office, I didn't think much of him, having had him as governor here in Texas, and I just hoped he wouldn't do too much damage while in office. Heck, I even gave him the benefit of the doubt in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, since the country had been attacked.

I don't think I hit any real, lasting anger at his administration until the Katrina debacle. Oh, and the Schiavo meddling made me hit the ceiling, though that was more general anger at the GOP than anything that Bush did on his own.

What will always stick with me about Bush's presidency is that after 9/11, he had a very real chance to unite the country-- or heck, the world-- behind a common cause and to affect real change for good, but he threw it all away in such a thorough and profound way that it *still* boggles my mind. I don't think I'll never understand it at all.

278

Ramona Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:45:42pm

re: #16 The Curmudgeon

so they had to be armed and ready, often in the wilderness.

I hope they find a wilderness far away from the rest of us.

279

Ramona Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:47:35pm

re: #52 Ojoe

97 % er.

Wish you were getting as much publicity as the nits.

280

Lidane Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:53:34pm

re: #277 Lidane

Blah. PIMF. That last sentence should read "I don't think I'll ever understand it at all."

281

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:09:07pm

re: #277 Lidane

you know, I do want to stay in the present, mostly, but I feel that the country needs to agree on more historical and scientific facts then it currently does, if there is to be a climate that allows and fosters healthy political debates.
So I do hope that down the road, there will be a chance to fact check some of these things publicly. Because I do feel that both the liberal and the conservative commenters on this blog and those who are a mix are in principle commited to accept reasonably sourced facts. And it seems to me that although the right blogosphere is kicking and screaming, they are still reading.

282

Lidane Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:25:07pm

re: #281 suchislife

So I do hope that down the road, there will be a chance to fact check some of these things publicly. Because I do feel that both the liberal and the conservative commenters on this blog and those who are a mix are in principle commited to accept reasonably sourced facts.

Agreed. I'm very interested in seeing what comes out about the Bush administration in the future, just as a matter of course. I'm especially curious about where things went so far out of whack. As I said, they had the country behind them in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and from my point of view, threw it all away.

Speaking of things that are out of whack, the ODS I've seen since the election last year, and which is manifested in groups like the Oath Keepers is just beyond anything I've seen since Clinton was in office. It's personal against Obama in an almost visceral way, and I'd be lying if I said it didn't make me nervous.

It's one thing to disagree with Obama on policy or on principle. That's all well and good, and heck, I know I've disagreed with things he's done since taking office and I voted for him. It's another to talk about revolution or about overthrowing a dictatorship or some of the more outlandish things being said about the guy. That's not even counting the racist stuff, which is just repulsive.

Honestly? I just wish these people would take a history course or read a few books. Calling him a Nazi, a Communist, a Fascist, *and* a radical Muslim all at the same time makes no sense. At least pick one and stick with it, you know?

283

b_sharp Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:36:54pm

re: #105 Sattv4u2

TWO teams with the same name !?!?!?!?!

Nope. One was Roughriders, the other Rough Riders. Not the same at all.

284

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:51:40pm

re: #282 Lidane

I know. At first it was funny, "look at the right embarassing itself!", but the right is half of the country, and they didn't slip up, or had a mad uncle regularily crash the party, they fell off the ledge.
They wanted to have Sarah Palin as Vice President, knowing nothing at all about her. A women who can't name one newspaper she reads. Who would use her 7 year old daughter as a shield to protect herself from an ice-hockey crowd booing her. Because she got it, and she was a decent person with family values. Because she was better qualified and more "american-minded" then Obama. That's just not funny. Politics is not a game.

285

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #284 suchislife

[Link: workbench.cadenhead.org...]

286

philosophus invidius Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:00:00pm

Don't ever be surprised by the comments section from the Vegas newspapers. Every article has a comment to the effect that taxation is theft. Vegas also happens to a center of paleoconservative thought.

287

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:01:01pm

haven't read the whole thread...yet... but um - didn't we get a Homeland Security report recently which kind of said... actually i've kind of forgotten..

(rightwing noise machine, what right wing noise machine?)

288

Mich-again Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:37:07pm

re: #263 suchislife

Uh, can you repeat the question. Or was that even a question? Anyway, I asked the card check question because in 250 doubter4444 dropped the F-bomb in response to this line from lostlakehiker

The Democrats aren't that hot on free elections, or they wouldn't be pushing "card check" unionization.

I personally think card check elections are a disgrace and anyone promoting them loses their credibility when they talk about free and fair elections. Its a litmus test for me.

289

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:44:46pm

re: #288 Mich-again

Card check has it's detractors - very true. There does - however - need to be a method of allowing people to unionize without union breaking action, dirty tricks and seeds of discontent being sewn by the Boss classes.

Freedom of Association is a fundamental right and very often undermined in the current scheme of balloting.

290

BlackFedora Sun, Oct 18, 2009 6:57:46pm

I appreciate the fact you highlighted this Charles. One thing that really gets under my skin so far as Oath Keepers go is the idea that are soldiers are hard on to enforce some sort of totalitarian regime. I think most of our soldiers would never follow orders like.. disarm American citizens or herd American citizens into FEMA camps.. and call me naive.. I doubt such orders would ever be given.

291

Lidane Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:03:38pm

re: #284 suchislife

I know. At first it was funny, "look at the right embarassing itself!", but the right is half of the country, and they didn't slip up, or had a mad uncle regularily crash the party, they fell off the ledge.

I'd say that only part of the right fell off the ledge. I've got plenty of conservative and/or Republican friends and relatives who shake their heads in amazement at the tea party crowd, the birthers, and the more virulent ODS-addled folks on the far right.

Unfortunately, the part of the right that fell off the ledge is the more politically activist wing that demands ideological purity and which has spent decades working itself into the power structure of the GOP. That's the problem. They make it almost impossible for a more reasonable discussion to take place, since any attempts at seeing the other side or in being pragmatic gets you labeled a RINO or a sellout. The end result is the far right saying and doing some questionable things and very, very few Republican politicians calling them out for it because they'd be going against a very active, very motivated base, putting their job in jeopardy.

292

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:08:03pm

re: #288 Mich-again

Actually it was two questions, and you answered both of them even though they were apparently not very clear.
I asked why one would mention card check in connection with suggesting that the Democrats might try to derail an presidential election, and if you had any evidence that suggest they would do that. You said that support of card check was a litmus test for the support of free elections. Answers both, though I don't agree.
As to why I asked, I had you confused with the original poster, sorry.
Thanks for answering anyway!

293

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:10:32pm

re: #291 Lidane

this ties in with very few interesting, thoughtful and independent Conservatives appearing on television.

It seems to me that to be on television one has to be a "total package" conservative or as i call them "media-cons"...

Against Gay Marriage
ProLife (unless its the death penalty)
Reflexively anti-immigrant
Pro Healthcare reform - as long as it starts - and narely ends - with Tort.
Pro gun.
For attacking Iran
Pro torture
For "simplyfying the tax code" - as long as the rich get to keep their complicated accountant required tax breaks/

It's all homogenous. It's group think. People see Conservatives like those on the teevee box and believe thats what they have to be to consider themselves Conservative.

You get a better fight on the Issues from two Democrats on television than you do from any one Conservative and Democrat.

294

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:19:19pm

re: #291 Lidane

I'd say that only part of the right fell off the ledge. I've got plenty of conservative and/or Republican friends and relatives who shake their heads in amazement at the tea party crowd, the birthers, and the more virulent ODS-addled folks on the far right.

I totally agree, and this blog proves that perfectly. But, what if you don't know any of these sensible conservatives personally? I guess what I meant was that there no longer seemed to be any evidence of that part of the party in the media, both traditional and new, or in the primaries. Did you see that poll I posted in the other threat, about half of Texas Republicans prefering secession? I would say that if half the party is off the ledge, including the leaders, then it's fair to say that the whole thing falls.

295

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:24:25pm

re: #293 wozzablog

this ties in with very few interesting, thoughtful and independent Conservatives appearing on television.

Who would you suggest to fill this role? Also, those "total package" conservatives are the ones that actually have the power in the Republican Party and the conservative movement both. It's not a case of the liberal media promoting right wing alan-colmes-like people.

296

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:32:06pm

The problem is - i have no idea. I'm in the UK - and all i see of US conservatism (outside this blog...) is Mary Matalin, Michelle Malkin, Pat Buchanan, Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Bill Bennet (who is by no means worst)...and good god, is Monica Crowley actually that Shrill?

PJ O Rourke is a different voice - always had a lot of respect for him. I don't know who else - i really don't. Even if they are just saying the same thing as Michelle Bachman - it should be atleast someone who doesn't feel like they are reading off cue cards and clift notes.

Club For Growthers, the Religious Right, the 2nd Amendment Fanatics and the NeoCons have - by turns - decimated thought in the Republican Party if the best they have is Matalin, Crowley, Malkin and Coulter. Boenher is a non-entity and the open townhalls the Republicans have held were car-crashes - and the closed ones were worse.

297

suchislife Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:36:17pm

re: #296 wozzablog

Can you recommend any good blogs about UK politics?

298

~Fianna Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:38:56pm

re: #286 philosophus invidius

Don't ever be surprised by the comments section from the Vegas newspapers. Every article has a comment to the effect that taxation is theft. Vegas also happens to a center of paleoconservative thought.

Another local?

299

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:42:02pm

popular ones -
[Link: iaindale.blogspot.com...] - Tory.

[Link: order-order.com...] - cuts both ways.

[Link: don-paskini.blogspot.com...] liberal/left with very good blog roll of lib/left

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...] fairly straight and often sarcastic news blog

300

Wozza Matter? Sun, Oct 18, 2009 7:42:43pm

re: #297 suchislife

see immediately above...

301

Lidane Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:29:31pm

re: #294 suchislife

I totally agree, and this blog proves that perfectly. But, what if you don't know any of these sensible conservatives personally? I guess what I meant was that there no longer seemed to be any evidence of that part of the party in the media, both traditional and new, or in the primaries.

That's because the part of the right that fell over the ledge are the folks that are in the media and who make up the party base that is most active in the primaries. They're the ones setting the tone for the discussion, and most of the politicians on the right are either in agreement or are too scared to alienate these people out of fear for their jobs.

There are sensible conservatives out there. Sadly, they're drowned out by the birthers, the Oath Keeper types, and the loonies. It's what happens when you allow the hard liners in a party to take control of the mechanisms of power. The inmates end up running the asylum and squeezing out anyone who might still be somewhat sane.

Did you see that poll I posted in the other threat, about half of Texas Republicans prefering secession? I would say that if half the party is off the ledge, including the leaders, then it's fair to say that the whole thing falls.

Being a Texan myself, I'd say that a good part of that support for secession is due to a serious lack of Texas history knowledge. There are people in this state who still believe the canard that Texas can legally secede at any time because it was independent before being annexed by the U.S. It's not true, but folks still believe it, and it drives the mistaken idea that we can take our ball and leave whenever we want. It didn't help matters when our idiot governor got up in front of the tea party types and started yammering about seceding. I wanted to slap people with a Texas history book when they started agreeing with him. It was annoying.

302

[deleted] Mon, Oct 19, 2009 8:29:08am

303

Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 19, 2009 10:59:00am

re: #302 bgnad

You can promote the Oath Keepers at some other website, because you're not welcome at LGF.

304

Wozza Matter? Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:34:58pm

re: #293 wozzablog

ok been downdinged twice on two - i thought - fairly uncontroversial - posts. The dinger has not posted on this thread yet - not even to explain why he down dinged those two posts.

???

305

Wozza Matter? Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:45:26pm

re: #293 wozzablog
have just tried finding some posts of the phantom dinger to rate... and suprise suprise - there are none. Thanks for playing this exciting game of "express your views fully"... you have chosen the "ONE MOUSE CLICK OR LESS VERSION".

306

suchislife Tue, Oct 20, 2009 5:24:20pm

re: #301 Lidane

Just in case you should look at this thread again!

That's because the part of the right that fell over the ledge are the folks that are in the media and who make up the party base that is most active in the primaries. They're the ones setting the tone for the discussion, and most of the politicians on the right are either in agreement or are too scared to alienate these people out of fear for their jobs.

So what you're saying is that the problematic republicans are the ones in the media, the ones that vote, the agenda setters, and the politicians. Add to that, the ones who go demonstrate. Frankly, those are exactly all the people that comprise a political party.
I don't really understand why someone calls himself a republican who does none of these things and who doesn't agree with those who do. And politicians are always either in agreement or scared about their jobs. That's a feature of accountability.

Being a Texan myself, I'd say that a good part of that support for secession is due to a serious lack of Texas history knowledge. There are people in this state who still believe the canard that Texas can legally secede at any time because it was independent before being annexed by the U.S. It's not true, but folks still believe it, and it drives the mistaken idea that we can take our ball and leave whenever we want. It didn't help matters when our idiot governor got up in front of the tea party types and started yammering about seceding. I wanted to slap people with a Texas history book when they started agreeing with him. It was annoying.

I can't really agree with you here. I don't think the problem is that these people are wrong about a legal or historical question, but that they obviously don't identify with America, unless America identifies with them. The question in that poll was not, "Could Texas secede?", but "Should it?". And I remember I dismissed that talk by Perry as extremely silly, until I saw that poll and realized he was very understandably pandering to his base, to an existing political will in the population.

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