So how can we blame this on Obama...

Well after all, if the kid is a witch ...

I'll take the 'no true scotsman' in under a hundred comments.

re: #3 jaunte

As in no true church would condone this?

Even though churches and pastors are involved it's more of an African cultural thing. It's common for villages to declare someone a witch to be blamed for illness, crop failure or some other misfortune. It's common in a lot of tribal cultures.

Clearly, these are not the actions of people who became TOO INSISTENT upon a rational, evidence-based worldview.

African albinos killed for body parts.

Another great American export. The Salem Witch Trials.

These idiot preachers are probably doing more to spread the word of Islam than any number of Imams in Africa.

I have many strong opinions about those "churches" that feel comfortable picking and choosing which verses of the book to enforce, but perhaps I'd better self-delete before I type something I regret.

This kind of thing has gone on in Africa for centuries, under the old tribal religions, Islam and Christianity. There are always those who will use ignorance and superstition to advance their goals. Education and providing a better way of life would go a long way to putting a stop to this kind of thing.

It's only the tiniest of steps away from this sort of bullshit taking place right here in the US. Phelps and his ilk would be there holding torches to the pyres themselves if they thought it was a witch they were burning, and there are far too many like him or nearly so for comfort, ready to begin the burning here with the Constitution, and move on to other targets once that's been accomplished.

re: #2 The Curmudgeon

Well after all, if the kid is a witch ...

Even without the (presumed) sarc tag, this gets downdinged

Sorry

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

re: #7 DaddyG

Another great American export. The Salem Witch Trials.

Not reallly. As Kilgore stated in #5, this has been a practice there WAY before there was a Salem ,,, Massachusetts OR England

But whoso shall aoffend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. -Matthew 18: 6

Oh, those wacky Christians...

re: #11 MandyManners

GMTA

I'll take my usual flounce range of 50-100

re: #9 SixDegrees

It's only the tiniest of steps away from this sort of bullshit taking place right here in the US. Phelps and his ilk would be there holding torches to the pyres themselves if they thought it was a witch they were burning, and there are far too many like him or nearly so for comfort, ready to begin the burning here with the Constitution, and move on to other targets once that's been accomplished.

Amazing that humanity can embrace its backward tendencies with such enthusiasm. I fear that the human race will never advance forward.

The fundies here would probably do the same if they could get away with it:

The bizarre aspect of this is they actually believe in witchcraft.

re: #11 MandyManners

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

How about those that don't believe?

re: #17 acwgusa

Amazing that humanity can embrace its backward tendencies with such enthusiasm. I fear that the human race will never advance forward.

We will and we have - there are just more than a few of us who will regress into selfishness and self justification for evil. Contrast the Phelps and these murderous actions in Africa with the millions of people worldwide who use their faith as an impetus to do good works and love others.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10

The abuse detailed in the article is too awful for words:

There's a scar above Jane's shy smile: her mother tried to saw off the top of her skull after a pastor denounced her and repeated exorcisms costing a total of $60 didn't cure her of witchcraft. Mary, 15, is just beginning to think about boys and how they will look at the scar tissue on her face caused when her mother doused her in caustic soda. Twelve-year-old Rachel dreamed of being a banker but instead was chained up by her pastor, starved and beaten with sticks repeatedly; her uncle paid him $60 for the exorcism.

Israel's cousin tried to bury him alive, Nwaekwa's father drove a nail through her head, and sweet-tempered Jerry — all knees, elbows and toothy grin — was beaten by his pastor, starved, made to eat cement and then set on fire by his father as his pastor's wife cheered it on.

Thank you for the article and the related link; I'll try to get as many people as possible to see these.

re: #22 akarra

The abuse detailed in the article is too awful for words:

Thank you for the article and the related link; I'll try to get as many people as possible to see these.

What the Hell is wrong with my species?

Last line of the story was a doozie:

"Please stop the pastors who hurt us," said Jerry quietly, touching the scars on his face. "I believe in God and God knows I am not a witch."

re: #17 acwgusa

Amazing that humanity can embrace its backward tendencies with such enthusiasm. I fear that the human race will never advance forward.

The West, at least, has made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time. It's only been a couple of centuries since such practices were common and accepted by Europeans right here on this continent. The Enlightenment brought about the beginnings of reform, and much has changed, but there is still a long way to go, and there will never be a time when watchfulness against such evil isn't required.

re: #19 enoughalready

How about those that don't believe?

I hope that was sarcasm. Not even the Cochran firm could help them get away with offending any child.

The context of that statement was a sermon on becoming as a little child and accepting the Gospel thus the use of the term "that believe in me". I'm believe God's judgement for those who offend any child is equally serious.

Sounds like it could have been a scene cut from Jesus Camp.

When we get extremists talking about banning the Koran (like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands) we have to ask ouselves how much of this depends on their religion and how much of it is a cultural matter that arises in politically and socially backward parts of the world, just as "honor killings" are still not uncommon among Christians in the Levant and in southern Europe.

re: #27 JasonA

Sounds like it could have been a scene cut from Jesus Camp.

What is Jesus Camp?

re: #27 JasonA

Sounds like it could have been a scene cut from Jesus Camp.

Yeah, because this kinda stuff happens here all the time among protestant fundies.

I have a feeling that, if confronted with this story, many people on the right who are beholden to the Bible beating base would find some way to either defend the pastors or cast blame on their 'interpretation' of the faith. I say that as someone who is conservative, but not a believer.

re: #31 GCM29

I have a feeling that, if confronted with this story, many people on the right who are beholden to the Bible beating base would find some way to either defend the pastors or cast blame on their 'interpretation' of the faith. I say that as someone who is conservative, but not a believer.

As a conservative Christian (Roman Catholic) I see no defense for this

re: #25 SixDegrees

The West, at least, has made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time. It's only been a couple of centuries since such practices were common and accepted by Europeans right here on this continent. The Enlightenment brought about the beginnings of reform, and much has changed, but there is still a long way to go, and there will never be a time when watchfulness against such evil isn't required.

I have to admit, when I read Charles' postings about how fast certain portions of people want to drag the rest of us back into the dark ages (and I refer here to the fundamentalist creationists, extreme YEC, and those that would turn the US into a theocracy, as an internal threat, as opposed to fundamentalist Islam) its hard not to lose hope.

re: #29 DaddyG

Jesus Camp is a very creepy documentary done some time ago showing kids and teens at an evangelical fundamentalist Christian summer camp or something like that. I think it was an HBO thing. Correct me if I'm wrong...it was unsettling to watch whether you are a believer or not. Weird stuff going on.

I saw that article a couple of days ago and was really horrified by it, I guess the people have more respect for preachers powerful enough to identify and cast out witches. The article makes a point of saying how part of this is simply from rival preachers trying to boost their reputation and church attendance. It also points out how little Churches have popped up everywhere by the hundreds, often run by people with no seminary or missionary training, yet they all promise they will make their followers wealthy. You could hardly dream up a better recipe for disaster if you consciously tried. When these newly "god" fearing peoples lives still go wrong and they remain poor someone has to be found to blame, and the preacher certainly isn't going to let it be him.

Wow, this is awful. No snarky comments from cliffster about this article

re: #26 DaddyG

I hope that was sarcasm. Not even the Cochran firm could help them get away with offending any child.

The context of that statement was a sermon on becoming as a little child and accepting the Gospel thus the use of the term "that believe in me". I'm believe God's judgement for those who offend any child is equally serious.

No, that wasn't sarcasm. That was an illustration of how easy it is to find loopholes even in the nicest sounding religious verses.

re: #29 DaddyG

What is Jesus Camp?

A movie. South Park, not surprisingly, did their own spot-on version of it.

re: #31 GCM29

I have a feeling that, if confronted with this story, many people on the right who are beholden to the Bible beating base would find some way to either defend the pastors or cast blame on their 'interpretation' of the faith. I say that as someone who is conservative, but not a believer.

You are suggesting that churches here in the US are doing this sort of thing?

re: #31 GCM29

I have a feeling that, if confronted with this story, many people on the right who are beholden to the Bible beating base would find some way to either defend the pastors or cast blame on their 'interpretation' of the faith. I say that as someone who is conservative, but not a believer.

God I hope not. I would think only the most deranged individuals would interpret this horrible crime as justified by the Bible.

The Lizards have been clear headed enough not to accept the bashing Islam in general over the actions of the Wahabbists and Jihadists. I would hope the same clear headedness prevails on these threads where someone claiming to represent Christianity commits horrible crimes.

Pastors abusing children happens and sadly it is all too frequent, but those actions are in opposition to the doctrines they claim to teach and there are more than a few Christians (conservative or not) who actively fight against such abuse.

re: #32 sattv4u2

Well, it was probably unfair of me to say 'many on the right'. It wouldn't shock me to hear some fundamentalists defend this practice. Didn't mean to disparage all Christians or all religious people.

re: #34 GCM29

Jesus Camp is a very creepy documentary done some time ago showing kids and teens at an evangelical fundamentalist Christian summer camp or something like that. I think it was an HBO thing. Correct me if I'm wrong...it was unsettling to watch whether you are a believer or not. Weird stuff going on.

Thanks for the info. I thought it might be something like that.

re: #2 The Curmudgeon

Asshole.

Honor killing (or in this case fear killing) ain't just a Muslim thing.

Any difference between these Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban?

I've read that the Catholic church in Africa has similar problems with a toxic mix of Christianity and superstitions (including claims about witches, etc.). It seems to be (as another poster noted) a "cultural thing" (which predates Christianity..)

re: #45 StillAMarine

Any difference between these Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban?

Apart from their Favorite Reading Lists? None at all.

re: #44 Cato the Elder

Honor killing (or in this case fear killing) ain't just a Muslim thing.

Fear killing isn't even exclusively a religion thing, either.

re: #30 Guanxi88

Yeah, because this kinda stuff happens here all the time among protestant fundies.

Uh huh. They don't associate with witch hunters.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Even though churches and pastors are involved it's more of an African cultural thing. It's common for villages to declare someone a witch to be blamed for illness, crop failure or some other misfortune. It's common in a lot of tribal cultures.

Including tribal Europe under Christianity. Or tribal European America. I live just an hour or two from Salem.

And anytime a man kills his wife or girlfriend from jealousy, it's actually an "honor killing"...but some people only get upset if there's Islam involved.

re: #45 StillAMarine

Any difference between these Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban?

Let's see:

They aren't running an insurgency in two countries at once;

They aren't providing training in weapons and tactics to spread their vision internationally;

They don't enjoy support outside of their immediate areas, nor do Pentecostals the world over attempt to sneak into their areas for an experience of authentic Christianity, nor do Pentecostal ministers world-wide preach sermons in support of their witch-hunting.

Otherwise, I'm sure they're exactly as similar as your purposes require them to be.

As I recall the new converts usually blend in the old traditions. The church once dealt with cannibalism in tribes, NOT an American export. Link follows.

BTW I doubt they got witch killing from Salem...

[Link: query.nytimes.com...]

re: #9 SixDegrees

It's only the tiniest of steps away from this sort of bullshit taking place right here in the US. Phelps and his ilk would be there holding torches to the pyres themselves if they thought it was a witch they were burning, and there are far too many like him or nearly so for comfort, ready to begin the burning here with the Constitution, and move on to other targets once that's been accomplished.

We're only tiny steps away?

Geez...haven't you heard of Michael Newdow, the ACLU and the MSM?
They seem to be doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square, so how do you figure we're nly a reconcilliation vote away from witch trials?

Take a deep breathe and consider backing off on such hyperbole.

Are there some who want this? Yes, and some who think we should thin out the ranks of humans to save Gaia are among us, too...are we steps away from self-elimination as a result?

re: #53 Curt

Up ding for the call for calm

re: #53 Curt

We're only tiny steps away?

Geez...haven't you heard of Michael Newdow, the ACLU and the MSM?
They seem to be doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square, so how do you figure we're nly a reconcilliation vote away from witch trials?

Take a deep breathe and consider backing off on such hyperbole.

Are there some who want this? Yes, and some who think we should thin out the ranks of humans to save Gaia are among us, too...are we steps away from self-elimination as a result?

Humanity is always on the tip of it's own self-destruction. It's in our basic nature.

re: #45 StillAMarine

Not heard of any honor killings... Nor female circumcision... Nor IED's.

I have been taught that the verse in question isn't even very well translated into English versions of the Bible. "Witch" as interpreted by these African preachers and the protestants in Salem is different than my understanding of that verse meaning someone who murders with poison.

Anyone here good at Hebrew who can clarify that- Exodus 22:18

The Biblical meaning of that verse is what the preacher himself was guilty of by pouring acid down the child's throat.

re: #49 JasonA

Uh huh. They don't associate with witch hunters.

If you think there's a parallel between this guy's claim of spiritual warfare over a witch (really a generic and derogatory term for an animist) and burning a child's face with caustic soda, then you're free to perpetuate your delusions.

Note, too, that this anointing, like the one recently bestowed on the President by his buddies in Norway, was not sought by Caribou barbie.

re: #11 MandyManners

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

That's one of those perplexing verses with respect to God's all powerful reach and the supposed afterlife.

re: #45 StillAMarine

Any difference between these Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban?

The size of their group and how well armed they are. Other than that no.

re: #53 Curt

We're only tiny steps away?

Geez...haven't you heard of Michael Newdow, the ACLU and the MSM?
They seem to be doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square, so how do you figure we're nly a reconcilliation vote away from witch trials?

Take a deep breathe and consider backing off on such hyperbole.

Are there some who want this? Yes, and some who think we should thin out the ranks of humans to save Gaia are among us, too...are we steps away from self-elimination as a result?

A complete non sequitur.

And I wasn't using hyperbole.

re: #44 Cato the Elder

re: #45 StillAMarine

If you believe there is a large population of Christians in the US who practice this sort of thing, then I see your point and I disagree with your belief. However, I find it difficult to believe that you actually think there are widespread examples of this sort of thing.

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Murder is still murder. When "honor killings" are mentioned, I associated them with dominate family alpha male killing a female relative over a minor slight rather than jealousy.

re: #42 DaddyG

One cult among many...

re: #56 Rightwingconspirator

Not heard of any honor killings... Nor female circumcision... Nor IED's.

He used these Christians not all Christians.

re: #59 trendsurfer

That's one of those perplexing verses with respect to God's all powerful reach and the supposed afterlife.

I understand it as meaning - a horrble mortal death would be preferable to the punishment to be visited upon them in the afterlife if they are cruel to children.

re: #51 Guanxi88

Well said. I was not thinking. The biggest difference is that the Muslim fanatics have access to a lot more technology. But even if the African Christian fanatics had access to the Internet and modern weapons, I do not think we would see them launch a worldwide series of terrorist attacks aimed at innocents.
On the other hand, I did specifically mention the Taliban, who do not (yet) engage in terrorism outside their own areas. Like slashing women and girls who want with acid, ...

re: #34 GCM29

Jesus Camp is a very creepy documentary done some time ago showing kids and teens at an evangelical fundamentalist Christian summer camp or something like that. I think it was an HBO thing. Correct me if I'm wrong...it was unsettling to watch whether you are a believer or not. Weird stuff going on.

The creepiest thing about "Jesus Camp" is that the organization
it documented does not reject the accuracy of the portrayal.

(Links are out there.)

Witches have long been suspected in Africa of shrinking men's penises. It's a truly bizarre cultural phenomenon.

re: #65 badger1970

He used these Christians not all Christians.

Also: don't confuse goals with tactics. It's the goals which are identifiable - and identical. How those goals are achieved - the tactics - may differ, but both groups are headed toward exactly the same end.

re: #68 Decatur Deb

The creepiest thing about "Jesus Camp" is that the organization
it documented does not reject the accuracy of the portrayal.

(Links are out there.)

Like my post above at #18.

re: #67 StillAMarine

Well said. I was not thinking. The biggest difference is that the Muslim fanatics have access to a lot more technology. But even if the African Christian fanatics had access to the Internet and modern weapons, I do not think we would see them launch a worldwide series of terrorist attacks aimed at innocents.
On the other hand, I did specifically mention the Taliban, who do not (yet) engage in terrorism outside their own areas. Like slashing women and girls who want with acid, ...

You wanna think about a terrifying scenario? Imagine these folks getting themselves together and launching a crusade. It is not as improbable as it may seem at first, and, given what we know about the growth of these two religions in Africa, certainly a possibility.

re: #69 bosforus

Witches have long been suspected in Africa of shrinking men's penises. It's a truly bizarre cultural phenomenon.

powerful stuff,, considering i've never even BEEN there !!

//

(actually ,,, I have been on the continent, but the joke works better that way!!))

re: #69 bosforus

Witches have long been suspected in Africa of shrinking men's penises. It's a truly bizarre cultural phenomenon.

Suspected... I can assure you Helen Thomas does that to me every time.

This is utterly disgusting.

re: #72 Guanxi88

You wanna think about a terrifying scenario? Imagine these folks getting themselves together and launching a crusade. It is not as improbable as it may seem at first, and, given what we know about the growth of these two religions in Africa, certainly a possibility.

And imagine us stopping it in a single day... certainly a possibility.

re: #73 sattv4u2

I'd give you a few updings if I could. Sounds like you could use 'em.

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Suspected... I can assure you Helen Thomas does that to me every time.

Just don't think of a Helen Thomas/Hillary Clinton two way.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Even though churches and pastors are involved it's more of an African cultural thing. It's common for villages to declare someone a witch to be blamed for illness, crop failure or some other misfortune. It's common in a lot of tribal cultures.

This is the sort of culture the Dominionist crowd would like to return to. No thanks.

Elsewhere, Progressives launch attack on Harry Reid.

re: #55 acwgusa

Humanity is always on the tip of it's own self-destruction. It's in our basic nature.

But somehow...we keep progressing forward, developing advanced ways to extend life, make the disabled at birth able to interact with society and be valued, head into space and explore the unkown...for the beneift of others..You know, we hear about the crazies...and the far more normal, unselfish, kind and compassionate, who tend to shun recognition walk all among us, most likely many who frequent the borads here, and therin lies the hope of the future...which..just keeps on coming.

If we have been so close for so long, why are we not reading by candles (and not on the internet)?

I'd submit it's more talk than reality to only be hanging by a thread of sanity.

re: #57 DaddyG

I stand corrected. /

[Link: www.landoverbaptist.org...]

re: #70 SixDegrees

I was just pointing out #45 use of the word "these" to differentiate from "all". If you think all Christians are just Taliban wanna' be's, so be it.

If one of these Pentecostal churches opened in Europe or the US and did the same thing they do in the African Churches, would there be movement to ban the bible? What would the "anti-jihad" bloggers say about it?

re: #81 Curt

But somehow...we keep progressing forward, developing advanced ways to extend life, make the disabled at birth able to interact with society and be valued, head into space and explore the unkown...for the beneift of others..You know, we hear about the crazies...and the far more normal, unselfish, kind and compassionate, who tend to shun recognition walk all among us, most likely many who frequent the borads here, and therin lies the hope of the future...which..just keeps on coming.

If we have been so close for so long, why are we not reading by candles (and not on the internet)?

I'd submit it's more talk than reality to only be hanging by a thread of sanity.

The history of most forward technological development is they were military applications first.

re: #62 cliffster

I believe that if there are any Christians in North America who believe as they do, they could be counted on the fingers of one hand. However I seriously doubt that there are even that many.
My statement equating the African religious fundamentalists to the Taliban referred to their similar literal, narrow points of view of the world rather than the details of how they apply their beliefs.

re: #66 DaddyG

I understand it as meaning - a horrble mortal death would be preferable to the punishment to be visited upon them in the afterlife if they are cruel to children.

I can think of a much more horrible mortal death than being drowned. Why not crucifixion or being impaled?

That verse just doesn't seem to fit the whole Christian narrative, IMHO.

re: #80 SixDegrees

Elsewhere, Progressives launch attack on Harry Reid.

He's also not doing too wells in NV polling.

re: #72 Guanxi88

You wanna think about a terrifying scenario? Imagine these folks getting themselves together and launching a crusade. It is not as improbable as it may seem at first, and, given what we know about the growth of these two religions in Africa, certainly a possibility.

Ahh, here it is:

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

and, in greater depth:

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

"Today across the global South a rising religious fervor is coinciding with declining autonomy for nation-states, making useful an analogy with the medieval concept of Christendom—the Res Publica Christiana—as an overarching source of unity and a focus of loyalty transcending mere kingdoms or empires. Kingdoms might last for only a century or two before being supplanted by new states or dynasties, but rational people knew that Christendom simply endured. The laws of individual nations lasted only as long as the nations themselves; Christendom offered a higher set of standards and mores that could claim to be universal. Christendom was a primary cultural reference, and it may well re-emerge as such in the Christian South—as a new transnational order in which political, social, and personal identities are defined chiefly by religious loyalties."

There was a case not too long ago (2007) where a Christian "boot camp" in Texas tied a 15 year-old girl to a van and DRAGGED her because she couldn't keep up during their "spiritual runs"; craziness abounds, and when you mix regular crazy with religous crazy, there's no telling WHAT sort of batshit crazy you'll end up with.

re: #11 MandyManners

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 18:6

The Bible goes both ways:

He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

re: #84 baier

If one of these Pentecostal churches opened in Europe or the US and did the same thing they do in the African Churches, would there be movement to ban the bible? What would the "anti-jihad" bloggers say about it?

I am anti-jihad but not anti-Islam. I would have to say that if "our" crazies got to the point where they had teh power and general acceptance among "us" as "their" crazies have among "them" than you would hear cries to ban the Bible and not without some cause.

re: #83 badger1970

I was just pointing out #45 use of the word "these" to differentiate from "all". If you think all Christians are just Taliban wanna' be's, so be it.

Nope, that wasn't my intent. I'm happy to confine my comments to a select, so far small group of Protestants. I think the wording used makes that abundantly clear: "These" as in "the ones perpetrating the atrocities."

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

And imagine us stopping it in a single day... certainly a possibility.

Granted, it would probably be every bit as organized and successful as the Shepherds' Crusade, but it's a terrifying possibility, and one that has to be considered.

re: #92 DaddyG

I use "Anti-Jihad" as the meme de gaurre that pam geller et al use.

re: #62 cliffster

re: #45 StillAMarine

If you believe there is a large population of Christians in the US who practice this sort of thing, then I see your point and I disagree with your belief. However, I find it difficult to believe that you actually think there are widespread examples of this sort of thing.

I'm guessing history was not your forte in school.

re: #93 SixDegrees

My apologies.

re: #84 baier

If one of these Pentecostal churches opened in Europe or the US and did the same thing they do in the African Churches, would there be movement to ban the bible? What would the "anti-jihad" bloggers say about it?

They're not interested in extremism from any source except islam.

It's very telling.

re: #86 StillAMarine

I believe that if there are any Christians in North America who believe as they do, they could be counted on the fingers of one hand. However I seriously doubt that there are even that many.
My statement equating the African religious fundamentalists to the Taliban referred to their similar literal, narrow points of view of the world rather than the details of how they apply their beliefs.

More than the fingers of one hand by a huge margin, sadly. But a small percentage of those who call themselves Christians, to be sure.

I'm an atheist, but I've got say, this behavior is occurring in spite of, rather than because of, the influence of Christianity in Africa. I think it's unfair to try and portray it this way.

re: #61 SixDegrees

A complete non sequitur.

And I wasn't using hyperbole.

Might you have actual evidence about how this is coming any day now?

Or you measurment of "tiny" in a standard form? We may only be off the mark by not agreeing on metrics.

I don't want to miss it, but I sure haven't read any stories where such ideas have traction in the US, let alone fully developed legislation ready for signing.

re: #81 Curt

But somehow...we keep progressing forward, developing advanced ways to extend life, make the disabled at birth able to interact with society and be valued, head into space and explore the unkown...for the beneift of others..You know, we hear about the crazies...and the far more normal, unselfish, kind and compassionate, who tend to shun recognition walk all among us, most likely many who frequent the borads here, and therin lies the hope of the future...which..just keeps on coming.

If we have been so close for so long, why are we not reading by candles (and not on the internet)?

I'd submit it's more talk than reality to only be hanging by a thread of sanity.

Also, humanity has never lacked for new and inventive ways to do each other in.

re: #88 bosforus

He's also not doing too wells in NV polling.

As Montgomery Burns would say, "Excellent!"

I believe these men of the cloth would be the wolves in sheeps clothing that the bible speaks of.
They exist in all religions and they would exist without religion.
They are evil just plain and simple.

re: #87 trendsurfer

I can think of a much more horrible mortal death than being drowned. Why not crucifixion or being impaled?

That verse just doesn't seem to fit the whole Christian narrative, IMHO.

If you think that illustration is too gentle the Old and New Testament are filled with more colorful ones.

I'd ask you what the whole "Christian narrative" means to you but I'm afraid that would be a rabbit trail of epic proportions if we when there! The "Christian" world can't even agree on who is "truly Christian" or not.

re: #71 trendsurfer

Yes--I've seen video of the lady w/ the mike vouching for the
film's accuracy. Perhaps the end credits or and epilogue.

re: #101 Curt

I don't want to miss it, but I sure haven't read any stories where such ideas have traction in the US

Then you apparently didn't bother watching the video I posted.

re: #96 Cato the Elder

StillAMarine: That was directed at Cliffster, not at you.

re: #98 Sharmuta

They're not interested in extremism from any source except islam.

It's very telling.

I think its a safe bet to say many would throw their unconditional support behind people like this if they launched a crusade versus Islam.

this is why i gave up on you guys and moved to outer space

re: #102 acwgusa

Also, humanity has never lacked for new and inventive ways to do each other in.

Agreed. But we keep backing off, when it comes to actually employing them on a large scale.

re: #100 middy

I'm an atheist, but I've got say, this behavior is occurring in spite of, rather than because of, the influence of Christianity in Africa. I think it's unfair to try and portray it this way.

I don't think Charles is trying to portray Christians as violent, just as he doesn't portray Muslims as violent.

re: #111 Curt

Agreed. But we keep backing off, when it comes to actually employing them on a large scale.

The rational actors do. But this is planet is not made up of all rational actors.

re: #113 acwgusa

The rational actors do. But this is planet is not made up of all rational actors.

Take the Baldwin family, for example...

re: #56 Rightwingconspirator

Not heard of any honor killings... Nor female circumcision... Nor IED's.

Just to be pedantic, I'll point out that Coptic Christians in Egypt sometimes do practice FGM, though thankfully it's not a universal practice.

re: #96 Cato the Elder

I'm guessing history was not your forte in school.

Or perhaps reading was not yours - you'll notice I used present tense.

re: #114 Guanxi88

Take the Baldwin family, for example...

No thanks. You can keep them.

We actually had someone show up at the end of the Oath Keepers thread to defend those nutjobs.

re: #63 badger1970

Murder is still murder. When "honor killings" are mentioned, I associated them with dominate family alpha male killing a female relative over a minor slight rather than jealousy.

Jealousy, minor slight, major slight: any woman killed over any psycho-sexual affront, whether religiously motivated or not, is killed for a perceived blow to the honor of the membrum virile.

The nature of any substantive belief system is that anyone can use that system to justify horrible cruelty or tremendous good. This isn't limited to religion. If it ends in -ism it has the potential to be used for good or evil.

re: #68 Decatur Deb

The creepiest thing about "Jesus Camp" is that the organization
it documented does not reject the accuracy of the portrayal.

(Links are out there.)

Having the kids pray to a cardboard cut-out of President Bush was probably the creepiest thing in my opinion. Although several other parts of it were very close, the whole "Warriors of God" bit with the kids in camo face paint was almost as bad.

re: #100 middy

I'm an atheist, but I've got say, this behavior is occurring in spite of, rather than because of, the influence of Christianity in Africa. I think it's unfair to try and portray it this way.

I don't think anyone's portraying it as anything other than what you're describing. But I may have missed a post.

If someone has suggested that all Christians, or even a significant fraction of them, are engaging in this sort of outright evil, please direct me to the post number, because I would like to reply to them directly.

re: #118 Charles

We actually had someone show up at the end of the Oath Keepers thread to defend those nutjobs.

Heh. Oafkeepers.

re: #116 cliffster

Or perhaps reading was not yours - you'll notice I used present tense.

And you may have seen that I did not refer to a specific time.

Witches were killed here in America and all over Europe, just a few generations back.

And there are plenty of mouth-foamers who would like to bring that back.

Start with child-flogging, move up to the bigger stuff.

Busier than ever and can't stay long, but I had to remark on that Interracial Romance ad. It must be breaking RS McCain's heart! Ha!

re: #96 Cato the Elder

Do I remember video of an African missionary visiting a church in
some small Alaska town. Or is that too easy?

Some places in Africa simply remain strongholds of superstition. Just today there was a news article in the BBC about an albino woman in Tanzania who was attacked due to the belief her unusual body possesses magical potential.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #110 SpaceJesus

this is why i gave up on you guys and moved to outer space

I tried also, but I could only afford a small flat in South Central outer space. Cheap digs, but I was a little freaked out by all the low-rider space ships. My cloaking device was on the fritz, so I high-tailed it back, out of fear of someone busting a photon torpedo in my ass.

re: #105 DaddyG

If you think that illustration is too gentle the Old and New Testament are filled with more colorful ones.

I'd ask you what the whole "Christian narrative" means to you but I'm afraid that would be a rabbit trail of epic proportions if we when there! The "Christian" world can't even agree on who is "truly Christian" or not.

You can find justification for most any act, good or bad my cherry picking the Bible. Torture is fine, so is slavery by those that pick the passages that support their beliefs.

re: #124 Cato the Elder

And you may have seen that I did not refer to a specific time.

Witches were killed here in America and all over Europe, just a few generations back.

And there are plenty of mouth-foamers who would like to bring that back.

Start with child-flogging, move up to the bigger stuff.

Ack! Cato and I agree on something.

Excuse me - I have to go flagellate myself and drive the demons from my body.

re: #17 acwgusa

Amazing that humanity can embrace its backward tendencies with such enthusiasm. I fear that the human race will never advance forward.

??

Please google "moonlandings", "internal combustion engines", "civil rights", woman's rights", "defrost-free refrigerators", and "pizza delivery".

These are but a few examples of advances that may calm your fears of staying in the dark ages of witch killings by international society as a whole.

Use the internet... it's much faster than smoke signals... most of the time.

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

As in no true church would condone this?

True, but not helpful. I wonder if there's any way for American Pentecostals to intervene in this, or offer the kids support.

re: #124 Cato the Elder

Start with child-flogging, move up to the bigger stuff.

...another greatly misinterpreted verse. "Spare the law" would have been a better translation than "spare the rod". The idiots who advocate beatings with a stick for God (I'm not talking a spank here and there) would be better off using their doctorate of divinity to wipe their butts (IMO)

re: #131 AmeriDan

Use the internet... it's much faster than smoke signals... most of the time.

/Teh internets have been around for a while now.

re: #107 SixDegrees

Then you apparently didn't bother watching the video I posted.

How does that video of a single demonstration make us about to go over the edge as an entire society? Also, in that same video, there were people who disliked the message of Westboro Church.

If we reacted to each and every small group as though they were an actual threat to our way of life...we'd be overwhelmed.

I stand by my first comment. Take a deep breath and know there are actually those who would not just show up with signs, but backpacks full of explosives to punctuate their message.

Are you as vigilant of that type of "tiny steps" towards Sharia, and other such desires?

I disagree with the Phelps crowd message, but I haven't heard of them killing for their cause.

re: #124 Cato the Elder

And you may have seen that I did not refer to a specific time.

Witches were killed here in America and all over Europe, just a few generations back.

And there are plenty of mouth-foamers who would like to bring that back.

Start with child-flogging, move up to the bigger stuff.

Just once, I would like to ask the mouth-foamers how they would identify witches today.

I would ask them:

Did the witches trade up their brooms for vacuum cleaners today? Is today's witch using a Cuisinart rather then a cauldron?

Then I would relentlessly mock them for any answer they would give.

re: #131 AmeriDan

??

Please google "moonlandings", "internal combustion engines", "civil rights", woman's rights", "defrost-free refrigerators", and "pizza delivery".

That last one is morally ambiguous. It depends on what kind of pizza is being delivered. Some brands have definately set society back. /

re: #105 DaddyG

If you think that illustration is too gentle the Old and New Testament are filled with more colorful ones.

I'd ask you what the whole "Christian narrative" means to you but I'm afraid that would be a rabbit trail of epic proportions if we when there! The "Christian" world can't even agree on who is "truly Christian" or not.

Well, that's what happens when you base your foundation of Judaism or Christianity on texts that has been scientifically proven to be faulty.

It would be the same as trying to prove AGW with faulty data, it doesn't hold up.

re: #113 acwgusa

The rational actors do. But this is planet is not made up of all rational actors.

I'm getting that you're very afraid of a doomsday at any moment?

I'll buy in to a little bit of fear, as The WON refuses to convince the two irrational leaders to be rational. We used to have the guts to do that...back in the day, before the Nobel Peace Prize.

re: #136 acwgusa

They weigh the same as a duck.

re: #136 acwgusa

Just once, I would like to ask the mouth-foamers how they would identify witches today.

I would ask them:

Did the witches trade up their brooms for vacuum cleaners today? Is today's witch using a Cuisinart rather then a cauldron?

Then I would relentlessly mock them for any answer they would give.

They've updated their methods for locating witches. They keep a surveillance of all Hot Topics stores.

/

re: #136 acwgusa

Just once, I would like to ask the mouth-foamers how they would identify witches today.

I would ask them:

Did the witches trade up their brooms for vacuum cleaners today? Is today's witch using a Cuisinart rather then a cauldron?

Then I would relentlessly mock them for any answer they would give.

Well, since we live in a blessed land of religious freedom, there are self-identified Wiccans for them to go after if they dared.

I'm glad that hasn't been happening lately.

re: #96 Cato the Elder

I'm guessing history was not your forte in school.

My comments refer to North America now, not back during the Salem witch trials. As a matter of fact, the Malleus Maleficarum , which was co-written by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, two Inquisitors of the Catholic Church, was responsible for the deaths of more women than any book since.
From Wikipedia (if you can believe that source): Between 1487 and 1520, twenty editions of the Malleus were published, and another sixteen editions were published between 1574 to 1669. Popular accounts suggest that the extensive publishing of the Malleus Maleficarum in 1487 launched centuries of witch-hunts in Europe. Estimations of deaths have varied widely, but among scholars the more commonly accepted estimates are between 40,000 and 60,000 people, mostly women, because they were accused as witches.

re: #135 Curt

How does that video of a single demonstration make us about to go over the edge as an entire society? Also, in that same video, there were people who disliked the message of Westboro Church.

If we reacted to each and every small group as though they were an actual threat to our way of life...we'd be overwhelmed.

I stand by my first comment. Take a deep breath and know there are actually those who would not just show up with signs, but backpacks full of explosives to punctuate their message.

Are you as vigilant of that type of "tiny steps" towards Sharia, and other such desires?

I disagree with the Phelps crowd message, but I haven't heard of them killing for their cause.

And you have never heard of any "phelps" like groups (or religious groups in general) killing for their cause in the US?

The practice of murdering those suspected of being 'witches' in Africa is not a new one. In fact, murdering witches has been chronicled in many cultures throughout the world. The US has it's own dark history of such activities. In Europe the practice is at least as old as the Greeks and the Oracles. It's not a function of any belief system although organizations have the ability to codify transgressions as they see it and enforce verdicts.

The real culprit, as usual, is ignorance.

re: #131 AmeriDan

??

Please google "moonlandings", "internal combustion engines", "civil rights", woman's rights", "defrost-free refrigerators", and "pizza delivery".

These are but a few examples of advances that may calm your fears of staying in the dark ages of witch killings by international society as a whole.

Use the internet... it's much faster than smoke signals... most of the time.

Depends on what you choose to call "advancement." In the late 1930s, Germany was one of the most technologically advanced nations in Europe, while Japan was far and away the most technologically advanced nation in Asia.

Scientific or technological advancement is not linked in any way to moral advancement. If it were, the exponential growth of the former would have delivered us to nirvana decades since.

re: #31 GCM29

I have a feeling that, if confronted with this story, many people on the right who are beholden to the Bible beating base would find some way to either defend the pastors or cast blame on their 'interpretation' of the faith. I say that as someone who is conservative, but not a believer.

If we argued the biblical base for these actions by the rules I often see used on the Internet for assessing the Koran, the pastors would come out as the 'true defenders' of Christianity. However, I would agree with those who say that their understanding is faulty.

re: #137 DaddyG

That last one is morally ambiguous. It depends on what kind of pizza is being delivered. Some brands have definately set society back. /

The stuffed crust meat lovers from Pizza Hut. I love it, but its going to kill me, and make my cardiologist rich.

re: #108 Cato the Elder

I knew that, but I thought we were on the same page.

The IPA was great this weekend!

re: #135 Curt

Sure - it's just one bad apple.

Uh huh.

re: #142 Cato the Elder

We round up and burn Wiccans at the stake every third Tuesday here in good ol' Texas, didn't you know?

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but not helpful. I wonder if there's any way for American Pentecostals to intervene in this, or offer the kids support.

I think they can have support missions but it gets very tricky for one denomination to impose any kind of authority over small unaffiliated congregations. Many of these groups see their independence from a "church" as a good thing.

It would be easier to handle if it were happening in a Catholic, Mormon or established Protestant group with an international presence. Even then you can't prevent them from breaking off and forming their own group.

The only relief I can see here is pressure from their own government and society along with some recovery help offered by independent groups.

This is very tragic and troublesome.

re: #143 StillAMarine

My comment directed to Cliffster's comment to you, not to you directly. I should have edited out your name.

re: #45 StillAMarine

Any difference between these Christian fundamentalists and the Taliban?

Less sphere of influence.

re: #135 Curt

How does that video of a single demonstration make us about to go over the edge as an entire society? Also, in that same

I updinged you through clumsiness. Take it as a gift.

There was a short path from this thinking to a former candidate for
vice president. If I fail to mount the links, Google: "Wassila missionary
witch-doctor".

re: #139 Curt

I'm getting that you're very afraid of a doomsday at any moment?

I'll buy in to a little bit of fear, as The WON refuses to convince the two irrational leaders to be rational. We used to have the guts to do that...back in the day, before the Nobel Peace Prize.

Not a total extinction level event. Just that there are people on this planet who believe in death rather then life, and have no issue with taking other people with them.

re: #151 middy

We round up and burn Wiccans at the stake every third Tuesday here in good ol' Texas, didn't you know?

Is that what you call Arkansas co-eds?

re: #56 Rightwingconspirator

Not heard of any honor killings... Nor female circumcision... Nor IED's.

Clitoridectomy was practiced in the United States for 'medical reasons' as late as the 1940s, IIRC. And I would not be at all surprised to learn it goes on in African Christian communities.

re: #156 acwgusa

Not a total extinction level event. Just that there are people on this planet who believe in death rather then life, and have no issue with taking other people with them.

And we have them right here in the good old US of A. Right?

re: #146 SixDegrees

I listed Civil and Womens rights too, to help very partially cover the moral advances made.

Regards.

re: #53 Curt

We're only tiny steps away?

Geez...haven't you heard of Michael Newdow, the ACLU and the MSM?
They seem to be doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square, so how do you figure we're nly a reconcilliation vote away from witch trials?

Take a deep breathe and consider backing off on such hyperbole.

Are there some who want this? Yes, and some who think we should thin out the ranks of humans to save Gaia are among us, too...are we steps away from self-elimination as a result?

Liberal religions such as the Universal Life Church and the Unitarian Universalists have nowhere near the political clout as the fundamentalist conservative denominations.

re: #153 Cato the Elder

My comment directed to Cliffster's comment to you, not to you directly. I should have edited out your name.

No problem ... I fully understand that. Then, as an Albertan I have a lot in common with Texans -- oil, cattle, grain, sentiment for succession ...

re: #151 middy

We round up and burn Wiccans at the stake every third Tuesday here in good ol' Texas, didn't you know?

And then y'all Salem out to sea?

re: #149 StillAMarine

I knew that, but I thought we were on the same page.

The IPA was great this weekend!

I think we are on the same page.

IPA?

International Phonetic Alphabet? India Pale Ale?

re: #57 DaddyG

I have been taught that the verse in question isn't even very well translated into English versions of the Bible. "Witch" as interpreted by these African preachers and the protestants in Salem is different than my understanding of that verse meaning someone who murders with poison.

Anyone here good at Hebrew who can clarify that- Exodus 22:18

The Biblical meaning of that verse is what the preacher himself was guilty of by pouring acid down the child's throat.

The phrase itself probably refers to somone who practices necromancy. Medieval Jewish commentators interpreted the odd phrasing "shall not enable to live" to mean that one was forbidden to enable their livelihood by paying for their skills.

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Well, since we live in a blessed land of religious freedom, there are self-identified Wiccans for them to go after if they dared.

I'm glad that hasn't been happening lately.

Boy, then would they be confused when they ran into the Wiccan soccer mom with a starbucks and a minivan.

/The black cat, pointy hat, broom and cloak are sooo 17th century!

/yes, this is a boatload of sarcasm on my part.

Saw this in the paper last week. I was horrified. There's not anything to choose between these goons and the fundamentalist Islamists in Nigeria.

The Anglicans in Nigeria are a pretty conservative bunch - they are the ones to whom conservative Episcopalians opposed to gay and female priests are flocking to - but they are miles better than these evil Pentecostals.

re: #159 Walter L. Newton

And we have them right here in the good old US of A. Right?

I'm not going to walk into that one, and get the crap beat out of me. Nutters and kooks are not exclusively American.

re: #161 Liberal Classic

Liberal religions such as the Universal Life Church and the Unitarian Universalists have nowhere near the political clout as the fundamentalist conservative denominations.

How did you miss the Methodist, the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Metropolitian and so on... no liberals there, huh?

re: #121 ausador

Having the kids pray to a cardboard cut-out of President Bush was probably the creepiest thing in my opinion. Although several other parts of it were very close, the whole "Warriors of God" bit with the kids in camo face paint was almost as bad.

[Video]

That thing with the cardboard Bush was terrifying. That's against Torah, plus it's incredibly stupid.

re: #131 AmeriDan

??

Please google "moonlandings", "internal combustion engines", "civil rights", woman's rights", "defrost-free refrigerators", and "pizza delivery".

These are but a few examples of advances that may calm your fears of staying in the dark ages of witch killings by international society as a whole.

Use the internet... it's much faster than smoke signals... most of the time.

Technological advancement is not the same as societal advancement.

Takes no time to find links, takes a lot longer to find "neutral"
medium and embed:

www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/.../2003424364

There are a lot of others, incl video.

re: #155 Decatur Deb

If I fail to mount the links, Google: "Wassila missionary
witch-doctor".

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

As a member of one of the "mainstream" Protestant demoninations, I am saddened to say that, as our theology has grown more nuanced and complicated to try to reconcile our beliefs with scientific fact and knowledge, we have declined in membership in favor of those Christian faiths that dole out simplified pablum to their flocks.

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

How did you miss the Methodist, the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Metropolitian and so on... no liberals there, huh?

Mainstream denominations are fairly centrist. Putting aside internal divisions among Lutherans and Episcopalians on the issue homosexuality or the ordainment of women none of them advocate the removal of "In God We Trust" off of the money like Michael Newdow.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

re: #155 Decatur Deb

I updinged you through clumsiness. Take it as a gift.

Pssst... You can reverse your ding (up or down) by clicking the opposite dinger on the same post.

User-friendly!

re: #176 lurking faith

Thanks, but it would seem more hostile than intended. My short statements seem too snide as it is, but I can't keep up the pace. Could someone
aim me at the LGF steps for embedding links?

Yet another example of evil, done against innocents in the name of religious fundamentalism.

And of course Charles is going to be accused of hating Christians for posting about it, if it hasn't started already.

Is there even one Christian blogger out in the vast right-wing blogosphere with the moral integrity to condemn this unholy travesty in defense of the falsley accused, tortured and murdered?

re: #177 Decatur Deb

Could someone aim me at the LGF steps for embedding links?

You can write HTML hyperlinks in the body of your text, or you can just paste the URL into the window, and the LGF website will automatically link it, like so:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #144 Walter L. Newton

And you have never heard of any "phelps" like groups (or religious groups in general) killing for their cause in the US?

Yes...two abortion clinic killings over a few decades, I believe. Possibly a very few more. Certainly not a body count of in excess in 2996 in a few short hours...for religious purposes.

It's a matter of scope and magnitude. If you want to argue any murder is bad, I'm with you. I may also add, God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is on your side too. Actually told humans, in absolute terms to not do it.

re: #161 Liberal Classic

Liberal religions such as the Universal Life Church and the Unitarian Universalists have nowhere near the political clout as the fundamentalist conservative denominations.

And we're still not tiny steps away from a Christian theocracy...

re: #179 Liberal Classic

Thnx--

Was staring at "Web site" window, and thought it referred to the
commenter's own site.

re: #181 Curt

And we're still not tiny steps away from a Christian theocracy...

We were a few vote percentage points and a one cardiac arrest from
a witch-hunter's acolyte in the WH.

re: #7 DaddyG

Another great American export. The Salem Witch Trials.

These idiot preachers are probably doing more to spread the word of Islam than any number of Imams in Africa.

I have many strong opinions about those "churches" that feel comfortable picking and choosing which verses of the book to enforce, but perhaps I'd better self-delete before I type something I regret.

witch trials did not begin in Salem, MA. They've been around for over 1000 years.

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves."
[16] "By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
[17] Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] So by their fruits you will know them."
[21] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
[23] Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.' "
- Matthew 7:15-23

re: #85 acwgusa

The history of most forward technological development is they were military applications first.

For some, all, or the majority of human advancement do we owe this "method?"

I'd bet there were many other inventions not driven this way, yet...some of the most monumental have been "birthed" in that fashion. Do we discard them as "tainted" by the human conflict or do we thank those who have changed the world view to not continue to promote them as methods of war?

That has to be one of the most nauseating, evil, sad things I've ever seen.

I'm looking into this charity as a way of helping. Anyone who wants to do the same I can hardly think of a more worthy cause... : Child Rights and Rehabilitation Network...

As for the perpetrators, I believe Jesus said something about it being better to have mill stones tied around their necks than to cause spiritual (or otherwise) harm to a child.

re: #183 Decatur Deb

We were a few vote percentage points and a one cardiac arrest from
a witch-hunter's acolyte in the WH.

And Ron Paul is still in Congress...has his entire agenda been put into play?

re: #188 Curt

And Ron Paul is still in Congress...has his entire agenda been put into play?

I'll take that cheery note with me into the afternoon.

re: #121 ausador

Having the kids pray to a cardboard cut-out of President Bush was probably the creepiest thing in my opinion. Although several other parts of it were very close, the whole "Warriors of God" bit with the kids in camo face paint was almost as bad.

[Video]

I watched it 2x to make sure, but I don't see anyone praying to Bush. I saw them "blessing" the president, or at least the cardboard version, which is quite different. Would you still be concerned if they were blessing an image of our current president?

re: #181 Curt

And we're still not tiny steps away from a Christian theocracy...

An exaggeration perhaps, but given a well-funded, popular, and growing movement to include biblical studies in public school earth- and life-science curricula, the question become just how much is he exaggerating. Michael Newdow's fringy lawsuit on the pledge not withstanding, his position on the separation of church and state is essentially correct. It is a cornerstone of our civil society and secular government. This makes me wonder about where you're coming from when you say Newdow and others like him are "doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square."

re: #189 Decatur Deb

I'll take that cheery note with me into the afternoon.

:)

There are times I realize the slow plodding of the American political system has it's merit...mostly to filter out the bad ideas, despite how loud they begin.

Don't like the speed sometime, but it has been able to keep a pretty even keel across a few centuries.

re: #178 irish rose

Of course there is. This kind of thing makes real, practicing followers of Christ sick to their stomachs. There is no defense for this, or anything like it. Any church in the US that is even remotely affiliated with this kind of thing should not only lose their 501c3 status in this country, but their leaders should face some kind of justice.

Every belief system, every value (whether it includes a Diety or not), can and has been mutated by humans to do harm or to manipulate other humans. Nothing new here.

Christianity, like any other belief system, is subject to the abuses of people who will claim to adhere to it.

This is why a SECULAR government is the cornerstone of any healthy society. Freedom and diversity of ideas helps to moderate the more extreme ideas.

re: #191 Liberal Classic

An exaggeration perhaps, but given a well-funded, popular, and growing movement to include biblical studies in public school earth- and life-science curricula, the question become just how much is he exaggerating. Michael Newdow's fringy lawsuit on the pledge not withstanding, his position on the separation of church and state is essentially correct. It is a cornerstone of our civil society and secular government. This makes me wonder about where you're coming from when you say Newdow and others like him are "doing a good job of making sure God doesn't get a place in the public square."

I'm all about staying clear of exaggerations. That's been my point in this thread.

Separation of church and state. In a letter, not The Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights. What is in the Bill of Rights is the freedom to exercise one's religion (or not). That is what we must stand upon.

The 1st Amendment is about protecting the citizen from the power of the "state," not about protecting the "state" from the "power" (yeah, right...) of the citizen.

We "preach" tolerance almost 24/7/365 anymore, yet there are groups who are told their speech alone isn't acceptable. I object to flag burning by protesters, yet I swore to defend their right to do so. My oath means more than my emotional discomfort over this issue.

I learned long ago, studying history, that it's always dangerous to set a precedent, for you never know when you'll have to live by it...At least think things out before pronouncing them as the only way.

I haven't read through this entire thread, but feel the need to risk the wrath of Big Brother here at work and comment.

First, this is horrific and frightening. It is utterly reprehensible. Justice would be to see these "pastors" subjected to the treatment to which they are subjecting others. These are not pastors. These are people who use the church to grant a veil of legitimacy to their depraved, sadistic urges and greed - they use the guise of "church" to prey on others for money, power, or perverted sadistic pleasure (or some combination of those). They are evil, evil individuals.

That said, this is in no way indicative of the doctrines or practices espoused by any "mainstream" Pentecostal denomination with which I am familiar any more than the Fred Phelps group is representative of most Baptist conventions with which I am familiar. I grew up in a Pentecostal tradition and, without exception, everyone I know from that background (some of which have actually served in missionary work in Africa) would be horrified and grieved for the victims and enraged toward the perpetrators of these terrible events.

It's easy to paint "Pentecostals" with a broad brush, as it is with other labels such as liberal, conservative, Southerner, Yankee, Republican, Democrat, etc. The reality is that the people that espouse Pentecostal beliefs exist on a relatively broad continuum and aren't easy to pigeon-hole. To quote the character Liz on Nip/Tuck, "Labels are for tuna fish."

The scary thing to see is we have church's here that advocate the same sort of thing... and many people high in the public eye seem to be OK with it.

See: Sarah Palin's Church

re: #195 sasymomacat

I don't think anyone here has been anything but careful to confine their criticisms to those who deserve it. I haven't seen anyone yet stray over into the "broad brush" category you're referring to.

re: #194 Curt

And yet this sentiment is directly at odds with the content of all of your preceding posts.

Why am I not surprised?

There are parts of the world that are, for various reasons, socially and politically backwards. This is often reflected in the way they practice their religions.

It is both a moral imperative and well within our national interest to use political and economic pressure to encourage these nations to adapt basic human rights, freedoms, freedom of speech, freedom of (and from) religion, etc.

Unfortunatley, in pursuing our short-sighted economic interests, we often sideline the need to move these regions into the XXI century. Africa is an example, Saudi Arabia is another.

Wouldn't it be something if we were in a position to tell Nigeria or Saudi Arabia "We'll only buy your oil if you undertake steps to reform your political system and you human rights situation"?

re: #190 RogueOne

I watched it 2x to make sure, but I don't see anyone praying to Bush. I saw them "blessing" the president, or at least the cardboard version, which is quite different. Would you still be concerned if they were blessing an image of our current president?

I certainly would be.

re: #197 SixDegrees

Certainly - as I said, I haven't read the whole thread (pesky work thing), so I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone is broad-brushing. It's more a matter of a cautionary note. The reference from the topic post "on the rise of Pentecostal-flavored fundamental Christianity in Africa" left me with the impression that this is somehow an outgrowth of the fundamentalist Pentecostalism that is spreading through Africa rather than a perversion of that belief system. Granted, there are some things about Pentecostalism that are way "out there" and really look strange from the outside looking in. But, as I've read part-way through by now and seen others posting, this is not something that has come about because of the fundamentalist Pentecostalism but, rather, is something that has been brought in from existing cultural norms and woven in with the fundamentalist Christianity, similar to what has historically happened in many Carribean islands with local religions melding with Catholocism. Then in Raryn's #196, Wasilla Assembly Of God is described as advocating this kind of abuse (unless he/she was referring to something upthread unrelated to the topic - just saw it due to proximity). I didn't see anything in the article that would lead me to this conclusion.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone was broad-brushing. Just piping up to give a cautionary note. Having been the "weird Pentecostal chick" growing up, I can relate to being peered at as though I was some alien from another planet rather than a human being. Once people could get past my label and get to know me, I didn't seem quite as weird to them anymore. Anyone that is or has ever been "one of them" (gay? lesbian? a race other than the majority in a given locale? liberal in a conservative town? conservative in a liberal town?) can understand where I'm coming from on that one.

Perhaps it was a bit of an overreaction to the couching of these abominations as being related to "fundamentalist Pentecostalism." Apologies if I was out of line.

Do non-pentecostal Africans engage in the same behavior as the pentecostals are?

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Even though churches and pastors are involved it's more of an African cultural thing. It's common for villages to declare someone a witch to be blamed for illness, crop failure or some other misfortune. It's common in a lot of tribal cultures.

My church shares the building with an African congregation. The African pastor has said that, if not for the leavening, mellowing, uplifting influence of Christianity in his home country, things would be much more dire than they already are. There simply isn't an ethic of rationalism and the Brotherhood of Man in most tribal societies.

Now, if you really want to give African Christianity a black eye, there is a more heinous example than a few superstitious Pentecostal churches. The Lord's Resistance Army is a truly evil insurgency targeting northern Uganda, run by a loon who wants to impose government by the 10 Commandments. He abducts children, and uses them for his soldiers. A forlorn charity is trying to stop him.

re: #204 The Sanity Inspector

Now, if you really want to give African Christianity a black eye, there is a more heinous example than a few superstitious Pentecostal churches. The Lord's Resistance Army is a truly evil insurgency targeting northern Uganda, run by a loon who wants to impose government by the 10 Commandments. He abducts children, and uses them for his soldiers. A forlorn charity is trying to stop him.

I didn't realize the LRA was 'Christian' in its theology. When I was in college Invisible Children came to campus and made a presentation, didn't realize this was their mission. The Global Security article is an interesting/scary read.

re: #198 SixDegrees

And yet this sentiment is directly at odds with the content of all of your preceding posts.

Why am I not surprised?

Not reading and considering the discussion? I did check out the link to the video and commented it was about one group, well known and vocal and agreed they are out of line, and also pointed out the same video pointed out that group is well known and vocal and out of line. Actually a balanced piece of reporting, but certainly not a report worth using as evidence that the "end is near."

the BBC has done some phoenominal indepth case study reporting of this issue from point-to point

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

There was a documentary and some radio - not sure if any of it survives on youtube, but for anyone interested in Revivalist Old Time Religion and it's spread it's certainly and eye opener.

What a tragedy. The Christian tradition of Africa is older even than that of Europe, and yet it performs still worse than the latter at picking up what is good from its non-Christian traditions. In the case of this witchhunt it is picking up what is evil and destroying what is good at the same time.

Here is the speech which gave the single biggest contribution to ending the witchhunts in Europe:

Betrügende Zauberkunst und träumende Hexerey: oder Vertheidigung der akademischen Rede, von dem gemeinen Vorurtheile der wirkenden und thätigen Hexerey, wider das Urtheil ohne Vorurtheil [et]c, Ferdinand Sterzinger, 1767

It has got some funny ingredients as well, e.g. on p. 69 the author discusses a quote which attributes the tsunami of superstition in his homeland to the consumption of strong beer and stodgy bratwurst.

(Tech note to Charles: How comes that the blog engine (resp. the preview) messes up this link?)