South Carolina GOP Chairmen: Jim DeMint is Like a Wealthy Jew

US News • Views: 3,744

Two county chairmen of the South Carolina Republican Party, Edwin O. Merwin Jr. and James S. Ulmer Jr., have an editorial in yesterday’s edition of the Times and Democrat newspaper defending Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC).

But with an antisemitic defense like Merwin and Ullmer’s, who needs critics?

DeMint watches out for all of us.

Recently your newspaper published a letter from state Rep. Bakari Sellers attacking U.S. Sen. Jim DeMint and his opposition to congressional earmarks.

There is a saying that the Jews who are wealthy got that way not by watching dollars, but instead by taking care of the pennies and the dollars taking care of themselves. By not using earmarks to fund projects for South Carolina and instead using actual bills, DeMint is watching our nation’s pennies and trying to preserve our country’s wealth and our economy’s viability to give all an opportunity to succeed.

[…]

− Edwin O. Merwin Jr., Chairman, Bamberg County Republican Party, Denmark

− James S. Ulmer Jr., Chairman, Orangeburg County Republican Party, North

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244 comments
1 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:00:50pm

Thats.not.good.

2 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:01:07pm

“There is a saying that the Jews who are wealthy got that way not by watching dollars, but instead by taking care of the pennies and the dollars taking care of themselves.”

Ya know, they could have simply written “Take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.”

Dammit! just when I thought this kinda stuff wouldn’t appear in print, anywmore, here it is - genteel, unthinking anti-semitism. Casual, you know.

3 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:02:40pm

John Stewart is going to have fun with this one.

4 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:03:20pm

Fail.

5 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:04:01pm

And I swear, these guys don’t even notice it and when confronted with it will simply and earnestly deny any racism or anti-semitism. And most likely claim that they let Jews use their bathrooms…

6 astronmr20  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:04:36pm

Just the sort of thing the Republican party needs— the sort of quote that will push the Jewish population in the south even further from the GOP.

What a party of FAIL.

7 Kragar (Antichrist )  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:05:21pm

I’m willing to bet if asked, they don’t have a clue about what was wrong with what they said.

8 [deleted]  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:05:41pm
9 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:06:02pm

I mentioned this downstairs: the worst part about this is that the reference to Jews is completely unnecessary, and detracts from an otherwise good adage and it’s application to current politics. Tying it to Rich Jews, however, completely trashes it and turns it into an odious, bigoted statement that will drive voters away in a stampede.

Morons. The GOP is starting to remind me of the Palestinians, who never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.

10 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:06:06pm

I’m sure they have plenty of Jewish friends, and even let them use their bathrooms.

11 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:06:54pm

Holy shit, I thought this had to be an Onion article…are these people totally clueless? In what universe would it be a good idea to say anything like that? He had to know how that sounds…christ, we’re never going to win another election with idiots like this in the party.

12 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:06:57pm

Time to remind everybody of Jesse Jackson and “Hymietown”…and Hilary Clintons gaffe of a similar nature.

13 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:07:12pm

re: #8 kamaz

So why even bring Jews into the thing at all?

14 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:07:21pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

I’m sure they have plenty of Jewish friends, and even let them use their bathrooms.

I’m sure they do…just don’t ask them if they’ll let Jews marry in to the family.

///must I ?

15 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:07:43pm

re: #12 ralphieboy

Time to remind everybody of Jesse Jackson and “Hymietown”…and Hilary Clintons gaffe of a similar nature.

Fine, but that doesn’t mean we should be OK with Republicans acting in the same fashion. This. Has. To. Stop.

16 [deleted]  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:08:16pm
17 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:08:17pm

re: #13 Guanxi88

So why even bring Jews into the thing at all?

To them, Jews=usury. It’s a basic mindset, and so deep-seated, they don’t even notice it. That’s the point.

18 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:08:47pm

re: #8 kamaz

Bye now! I’m blocking your account so you aren’t tempted to post any more at a blog you clearly have nothing but contempt for. No need to thank me!

19 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:09:23pm

re: #17 ralphieboy

To them, Jews=usury. It’s a basic mindset, and so deep-seated, they don’t even notice it. That’s the point.

That’s exactly the friggin’ problem. Can’t even counsel thrift without taking a swipe at someone - real nice people in my party.

20 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:09:42pm

Oops - I gotta learn not to use the “quote” button so often.

21 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:09:45pm

re: #8 kamaz

Does the saying lose impact from removing the stereotype? Nope, the saying becomes pithier and succinct (unlike this sentence) when you remove the pointless stereotype.

So why bother with including the stereotype?

22 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #21 bloodstar

Does the saying lose impact from removing the stereotype? Nope, the saying becomes pithier and succinct (unlike this sentence) when you remove the pointless stereotype.

So why bother with including the stereotype?

I think we all know the answer to that…because they meant every word they said.

/frakking bigots…

23 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:11:28pm

re: #17 ralphieboy

To them, Jews=usury. It’s a basic mindset, and so deep-seated, they don’t even notice it. That’s the point.

Thank you, you answered my question about bothering to include the stereotype without even intending to :)

24 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:11:34pm

The ‘buh buh buh but - they do it to” crowd is here.

25 rwmofo  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:11:47pm

Since I grew up in SC (but left over 30 years ago) and had never heard of this newspaper, I was curious where these people are: Orangeburg - where the population was 12,765 at the 2000 census.

I’m betting this type of “praise” won’t be sweeping across the nation at breakneck speed.

26 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:12:07pm

re: #22 talon_262

I think we all know the answer to that…because they meant every word they said.

/frakking bigots…


Reminded of the Onion headline

“I Find Stereotypes A Great Time-Saver”.

And it really is one of those moments when they show the reptile scales beneath their masks…

27 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:13:17pm

re: #12 ralphieboy

Or time to stop making tenuous comaparsions and face up to the racism that is endemic in the GOP.

28 Virginia Plain  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:13:31pm

And the GOP expects to win over Jewish people into their party? Not with this.

29 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:13:41pm

re: #22 talon_262

I think we all know the answer to that…because they meant every word they said.

/frakking bigots…

I keep holding out hope that there could be a less damning reason. But that’s starting to look extremely unlikely.

30 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:14:01pm

I wasn’t expecting a meltdown in this thread. Man, things are getting crazy out there.

31 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:14:08pm

re: #28 Virginia Plain

And the GOP expects to win over Jewish people into their party? Not with this.

They seem to be trying to alienate every ethnic group possible and as quickly as possible. Seems a very odd strategy to me.

32 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:14:11pm

And while we’re on this topic - thanks, GOP, for undermining in a an incredibly short period of time years of work promoting the party as the strongest backer of Israel while attacking the Democrats for being downright anti-Semitic in their hostility towards the state.

33 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:15:58pm

We never should have let the dixiecrats become dixiecans. It’s been hell on the party I knew.

34 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:16:23pm

re: #32 SixDegrees

And while we’re on this topic - thanks, GOP, for undermining in a an incredibly short period of time years of work promoting the party as the strongest backer of Israel while attacking the Democrats for being downright anti-Semitic in their hostility towards the state.

I owe you an upding. We used to be the pro-Israel party.

35 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:16:44pm

Remember, one sinister, hidden motivation behind conservative pro-Israel sentiment has little to do with interest in Jews, it is related to a fundamentalist longing to bring about Armageddon and the Coming og the Kingdom of Christ…

And this is anothe one of those moments that reminds us of how this thinking is suffused through a lot of conservative policy.

36 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:16:50pm

re: #12 ralphieboy

Time to remind everybody of Jesse Jackson and “Hymietown”…and Hilary Clintons gaffe of a similar nature.

Two wrongs don’t make a right…besides, Jessie’s getting old and Hillary’s been neutered over at Foggy Bottom. They’ve gotten their payback over the years…

37 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:17:01pm

Gone to Scareolina in my mind.

38 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:18:43pm

re: #35 ralphieboy

Remember, one sinister, hidden motivation behind conservative pro-Israel sentiment has little to do with interest in Jews, it is related to a fundamentalist longing to bring about Armageddon and the Coming og the Kingdom of Christ…

And this is anothe one of those moments that reminds us of how this thinking is suffused through a lot of conservative policy.

Hell, I don’t care WHY conservatives in the US have been pro-Israel. They could support Zionism ‘cause Israeli chicks are Teh Hawt, so long as they support it.

This stuff, though, ain’t good for the party at all. Thank the Lord they’re just local yokels and bumpkins.

39 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:18:58pm

re: #36 talon_262

Two wrongs don’t make a right…besides, Jessie’s getting old and Hillary’s been neutered over at Foggy Bottom. They’ve gotten their payback over the years…


I shoulda said that it won’t be long before someone brings those comparisons up…but I gues in doing so , I did already. And no, it don’t make Merwin and Ullmers and less of a peniscephalus.

40 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:19:01pm

re: #35 ralphieboy

Yes that’s true, for some…but I don’t think that is true for the majority of Americans who support Israel. It certainly isn’t true in my case, and I don’t think it is the case for most people on this site.

At least I hope that the majority of Republicans would have better reasons to support a country like Israel.

41 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:19:07pm

re: #37 Spare O’Lake

Gone to Scareolina in my mind.

Don’t sully a good James Taylor song like that…

;-P

42 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:19:22pm

re: #34 GCM29

Covered you on that upding!
;)

43 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:20:24pm

re: #32 SixDegrees

Anti-Semitism is an extremely serious charge and not one that I think applies. You could level the same charges at Jerry Falwell, with him making statements that historical anti semitism was basically brought about by the Jews themselves, however I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt and just think he is very misguided.
It’s better to just not play the racism card unless you are sure it is totally valid.

44 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:20:38pm

I’ll give an up ding if anyone can find a email address for any of these two jerks and link me to it…

I can’t find anything yet…

45 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:21:14pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

Anti-Semitism is an extremely serious charge and not one that I think applies. You could level the same charges at Jerry Falwell, with him making statements that historical anti semitism was basically brought about by the Jews themselves, however I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt and just think he is very misguided.
It’s better to just not play the racism card unless you are sure it is totally valid.

Not so much the racism card as the bumbling dumbf*ck card. We had this discussion about Rush the other nite.

46 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:21:55pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

Anti-Semitism is an extremely serious charge and not one that I think applies. You could level the same charges at Jerry Falwell, with him making statements that historical anti semitism was basically brought about by the Jews themselves, however I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt and just think he is very misguided.
It’s better to just not play the racism card unless you are sure it is totally valid.

And what the fuck do you think that statement above was, a compliment? It’s a backhanded compliment full of racial stereotypes that have no place in politics.

47 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:22:56pm

That person followed up with an email accusing me of blocking his account just because he disagreed with me. Of course.

48 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:23:15pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

And what the fuck do you think that statement above was, a compliment? It’s a backhanded compliment full of racial stereotypes that have no place in politics.

Like my Cajun in-laws coming to me for investment advice. They just sorta assume…

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:23:40pm

re: #47 Charles

That person followed up with an email accusing me of blocking his account just because he disagreed with me. Of course.

Now he will keep you from buying an interest in an NFL team…

50 Jack Burton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:23:56pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

I’m sure they have plenty of Jewish friends, and even let them use their bathrooms.

The wood ones with a cresent moon on the door?

51 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:24:57pm

This is not good:

US Scientist Arrested on Charges of Spying for Israel

52 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:25:15pm

re: #35 ralphieboy

Yes…I remember that statement from 2004. Interestingly, that’s how the left has been trying to portray all of the support of Israel from right-of-center.

53 Athens Runaway  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:25:32pm

I sense that Orangetown County is going to have two openings in their Central Committee reaaal quick.

Probably followed by a flounce or two.

54 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:25:37pm

re: #50 ArchangelMichael

The wood ones with a cresent moon on the door?

No, the wood ones with the Star of David, the Crescent moon door ones are for Muslims…

55 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:26:45pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

Did you run away?

56 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:27:29pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

Next time, try reading what I actually wrote before attempting to criticize it.

57 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:28:29pm

re: #51 Thanos

This is not good:

US Scientist Arrested on Charges of Spying for Israel

Eh, an FBI sting; no Israeli involvement, thank goodness.

I’m a zionist, and I do not support espionage by any other country here in the states. If found guilty, he does time - serious time.

58 Randall Gross  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:28:47pm

re: #51 Thanos

This is not good:

US Scientist Arrested on Charges of Spying for Israel

Note that you have to get several Para’s into the article before you see that it was a sting in which Israel was completely uninvolved.

59 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:28:48pm

One wonders though, why a party that is so ostensibly pro-Israel and pro- business (which should appeal to large numbers of Jewish professionals and businessmen) should have such a low level of support from the Jewish community.

But these fellow’s comments really sum up one good reason why that is the case.

60 Athens Runaway  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:30:45pm

Someone tell wrenchwench to clicky teh blue, ww was concerned there was a problem with the hamsters that was making my icon show up in the Spy but not on threads. I think I found the appropriate setting and fixed it.

61 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:30:49pm

re: #59 ralphieboy

One wonders though, why a party that is so ostensibly pro-Israel and pro- business (which should appeal to large numbers of Jewish professionals and businessmen) should have such a low level of support from the Jewish community.

But these fellow’s comments really sum up one good reason why that is the case.

Another is traditional patterns of political behavior among american jews. Trade unionism, sympathy for socialism, and a sort of vestigal sympathy for recent immigrants and economic underdogs all play a large part in it, I think.

62 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:30:50pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

That wasn’t a defence of the subject of this post, rather a statement that anything regarding Israel shouldn’t go straight to “one side is anti semetic”, which is untrue anyway and deeply partisan.
Also f-ing and blinding doesn’t make your point anymore convincing.

63 freetoken  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:30:51pm

Hey… good news! At least one of them believes in evolution:

Number of voters down but excitement up for primaries

[…] Orangeburg County Republican Party Chairman Jim Ulmer says uncertainty over a GOP nominee is exciting.

“Its interesting to see people’s opinion in that bunch evolve,” Ulmer said.

[…]

Ulmer said his opinion of the best candidate has evolved as well. Originally, he supported Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback until he dropped out of the race. “I had to go shopping all over again,” Ulmer said. He settled on former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson, calling him a principled person with a common-sense approach to government.

[…]

/Then again, if Brownback was his first choice…

64 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:30:58pm

re: #59 ralphieboy

Probably doesn’t help that the party seems to limit the amount of non fundamentalist Christians that they’ll let in.

65 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:32:12pm

re: #61 Guanxi88

Another is traditional patterns of political behavior among american jews. Trade unionism, sympathy for socialism, and a sort of vestigal sympathy for recent immigrants and economic underdogs all play a large part in it, I think.


In other words, those Jewish people don’t even know what’s good for them…

///

66 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:32:55pm

re: #62 XopXproxyX

That wasn’t a defence of the subject of this post, rather a statement that anything regarding Israel shouldn’t go straight to “one side is anti semetic”, which is untrue anyway and deeply partisan.
Also f-ing and blinding doesn’t make your point anymore convincing.

Really. Well, why don’t you make a comment on the subject of this thread. That statement was certainly a racist stereotypical comment, yes, no?

67 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:33:11pm

re: #65 ralphieboy

In other words, those Jewish people don’t even know what’s good for them…

///

Well, that’s what I keep trying to tell ‘em, but they just don’t listen to me.

68 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:33:45pm

re: #56 SixDegrees

I did read it. It seemed like you agreed with the latter sentiment, with relatively little room for ambiguty given the context.

69 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:33:57pm

re: #62 XopXproxyX

That wasn’t a defence of the subject of this post, rather a statement that anything regarding Israel shouldn’t go straight to “one side is anti semetic”, which is untrue anyway and deeply partisan.
Also f-ing and blinding doesn’t make your point anymore convincing.

You’re new here, so I’ll pass along some advice:

Walter is not one you want to spar with; not at all.

70 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:34:21pm

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

hah yes, I thought that went without saying. Simmer down jeez.

71 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:34:35pm

re: #67 Guanxi88

Well, that’s what I keep trying to tell ‘em, but they just don’t listen to me.


Don’t worry, The Messian will straighten them out when he comes…


///

72 sagehen  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:34:35pm

They probably thought it was a compliment. Just like Tommy Thompson

73 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:35:42pm

re: #71 ralphieboy

Don’t worry, The Messian will straighten them out when he comes…

///

Yep, one way or the other.

Seriously, though, my relatives had a harder time coming to grips with the fact that I was a republican than they did with the fact that my wife was a Protestant.

74 Jack Burton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:35:53pm

re: #64 GCM29

Probably doesn’t help that the party seems to limit the amount of non fundamentalist Christians that they’ll let in.

After 9-11 I was put on a waiting list. Then when I did get in, I wasn’t allowed to use the WASPs Only restrooms at party functions.

/

75 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:36:06pm

Is this for real?

76 bj  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:36:23pm

This little Jucie is a Centrist. The sooner we get more parties involved (human thinking EVOLVING), the better off we’ll be with the .gov .. but I’m afraid for Israel’s survival now with current .gov policies. I have nightmares where jimmah critter runs amok through the night with a hatchet hunting for Juice …

77 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:36:55pm

This isn’t about anti semitism.

The editorial was written without malice. It was written with a certain admiration for Jews and therein lies the problem.

The stereotyping of groups isn’t a selective exercise. We choose to accept the stereotype in whole or not at all. We may at times be selective in what character or other traits we admire in others and even pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive or liberal, but in the end that exercise only reinforces the stereotype.

It is true that every group sees themselves as superior. Religious, national cultural and social groups all have that in common. When all is said and done however, our efforts as individuals speaks for itself.

Jews, like Muslims and Christians and Canadians, Belgians and Luxembourgers are comprised of princes and paupers, saints and sinners.

The identity of any group is merely a reflection of the individuals who belong to that group and the choices those individuals make.

Individuals can and do choose the quality of their lives and they do so as individuals. To assign a religious, cultural or social rationale to the behavior of individuals (in either an elevated or derogatory way) is to negate who and what we are as a nation.

78 Morgoth  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:37:24pm
Morons. The GOP is starting to remind me of the Palestinians, who never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.

The same happened with the Tories here in the UK after 1997. They went into a circular firing squad and went through several leaders culminating with the disasterous Ian “Quiet Man” Duncan Smith. It took 3 election defeats before they got their act together.

In the meantime though, Labour has wrecked the country.

I just hope that the GOP come to their senses. But I fear that they won’t, and it will take several extremely bloody election defeats for them to realise the currently diasterous route they’re going down.

Worst case scenario is that they go down the plughole alltogether.

Did I say worst? To be honest, the current GOP I don’t think deserves to survive. Whither a principled secular small-government party that isn’t full of loons?

79 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:38:37pm

Sadly I don’t see any indication that this sort of mentality within the GOP is going to get any better any time soon. Ugh.

80 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:38:43pm

“Tone Deaf” hardly begins to describe this one…sheesh.
/:

81 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:39:04pm

re: #64 GCM29

Probably doesn’t help that the party seems to limit the amount of non fundamentalist Christians that they’ll let in.

I don’t think there’s an actual limit. It’s just that Jews and other minorities know discrimination when the see it.

82 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:39:35pm

re: #68 XopXproxyX

I did read it. It seemed like you agreed with the latter sentiment, with relatively little room for ambiguty given the context.

Then perhaps you need to attend a remedial reading course.

Or, simply admit that you leaped to an unwarranted conclusion.

83 sagehen  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:39:43pm

re: #61 Guanxi88

Another is traditional patterns of political behavior among american jews. Trade unionism, sympathy for socialism, and a sort of vestigal sympathy for recent immigrants and economic underdogs all play a large part in it, I think.


Jews are also really big on education and health care — that’s why our mothers want us all to be doctors and professors and rocket scientists. Theologically and culturally, it’s part of our tradition that the community should be willing to cover the tab for everyone to get a good education and good health care. These are not popular positions amongst Republicans.

84 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:40:07pm

re: #81 Cato the Elder

I don’t think there’s an actual limit. It’s just that Jews and other minorities know discrimination when the see it.


To quote Groucho Marx “I wouldn’t want to join any country club that would have me as a member!”

85 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:40:21pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

You’re new here, so I’ll pass along some advice:

Walter is not one you want to spar with; not at all.

I find the new military Armour works quite well
When Walter is pissed I stay in the green zone..
*wink*
/Hi Walter and all the Lizards!
Hope today finds you well

86 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:40:22pm

Update on this guy: Coburn, Price Not Rushing To Embrace Award From Doctor Who Sent Racist Obama Pic


Republicans are trying desperately to survive Glenn Beck and the Tea Parties. Good luck.

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:41:31pm

re: #83 sagehen

Jews are also really big on education and health care — that’s why our mothers want us all to be doctors and professors and rocket scientists. Theologically and culturally, it’s part of our tradition that the community should be willing to cover the tab for everyone to get a good education and good health care. These are not popular positions amongst Republicans.


You sum it up quite concisely, perhaps also because they do not share the Calvinist sentiments that underpin a lot of conservative Free market thinking.

88 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:42:30pm

re: #77 researchok

Should read

The identity of any group is not merely a reflection of the individuals who belong to that group and the choices those individuals make.

89 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:43:13pm

re: #82 SixDegrees

Ugh really, straight to playground insults?
I’m not going to play the contrarian game of “I said something but didn’t really say it”, thanks.

90 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:43:15pm

re: #83 sagehen

Jews are also really big on education and health care — that’s why our mothers want us all to be doctors and professors and rocket scientists. Theologically and culturally, it’s part of our tradition that the community should be willing to cover the tab for everyone to get a good education and good health care. These are not popular positions amongst Republicans.

My folk has honest to goodness wobblies not too far back, and the trade unionism thing was strong with us. Most of my relatives see their democratic politics as the practical expression of their Judaism, which rather misses the point. “Favor not the poor man,” and all that. They go too far with it, and are too eager to bend others to their interpretation of what the Lord requires of us. The others, well, they’re still labor radicals at heart.

91 RealismRox  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:43:18pm

This is bad stuff, you really have to question the intelligence of somebody who write this in a newspaper. I’m of Jewish-descent, but not religious, I’ve been told in one form or another, that my people are good with money more times than I can remember. Apparently this is something that is discussed frequently at fundie churches down here in the South.

On the other hand, there are much more hurtful stereotypes people hold for other races than being good with money. I’m also a big hip-hop fan, my 2GB shuffle probably has 20 songs with references to Jewish people. It’s a shame but this isn’t something that’s ever going to go away.

92 JRCMYP  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:43:34pm

Someone needs to explain this to me. I truly don’t understand. And please correct me if my impressions are wrong. Because I’m talking only impressions, and not any examples that I could cite:

There’s a part of the Republican party that seems to feel they have a lock on Israel, and defending Israel. They put themselves out there as defenders of the Jewish faith—or something—and paint Democrats as “anti Jew”. Whatever that means. And again, this is an impression.

But my understanding of many of these fine Republicans is that they defend Israel in general, but not Jews in particular.

What is their motive? Is it the strategic position of Israel in the middle east? Is it some fundamentalist religious bizarreness? Is it something else entirely? Because I just don’t get this. At.All.

93 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:43:36pm

If anyone want’s email addresses… I wrote a nice little missive…

[Link: www.imarepublicantoo.com…]

(in the URL, county-partie, what the fuck?)

94 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:46:34pm

re: #92 JRCMYP

Someone needs to explain this to me. I truly don’t understand. And please correct me if my impressions are wrong. Because I’m talking only impressions, and not any examples that I could cite:

There’s a part of the Republican party that seems to feel they have a lock on Israel, and defending Israel. They put themselves out there as defenders of the Jewish faith—or something—and paint Democrats as “anti Jew”. Whatever that means. And again, this is an impression.

But my understanding of many of these fine Republicans is that they defend Israel in general, but not Jews in particular.

What is their motive? Is it the strategic position of Israel in the middle east? Is it some fundamentalist religious bizarreness? Is it something else entirely? Because I just don’t get this. At.All.


As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. Pretty scary stuff when you see it raise its head. It has nothing at all to do with any concern for Jews in America.

95 freetoken  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:46:52pm

re: #92 JRCMYP

Is it some fundamentalist religious bizarreness?

♫

96 Guanxi88  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #83 sagehen

Theologically and culturally, it’s part of our tradition that the community should be willing to cover the tab for everyone to get a good education and good health care. These are not popular positions amongst Republicans.

Note, though, that I don’t collect for the new community center, or to support Torah scholars, from my buddhist neighbors. This is the problem with having any sorta theological underpinning to politics.

I’m quite happy to pitch in for orphans and new immigrants in Israel, and contribute to these causes when I can. I don’t expect the Catholic church to pay for this kinda stuff, because it’s not THEIR community. Same thing here.

97 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:48:42pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. Pretty scary stuff when you see it raise its head. It has nothing at all to do with any concern for Jews in America.

Wrong.

They do have a concern, that all Jews will eventually come to Christ. Other than that, the Jew is as much fodder for the Infernal Machines of Armageddon as any other non-believer or atheist.

98 sagehen  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:49:05pm

re: #92 JRCMYP

What is their motive? Is it the strategic position of Israel in the middle east? Is it some fundamentalist religious bizarreness? Is it something else entirely? Because I just don’t get this. At.All.

It’s a combination.

Religious — Israel’s role in their end times mythology.
Cold War — a number of Arab nations were Soviet-backed.
Pragmatic — technology R&D, medical research, good trading partners.
Political — the US doesn’t have a lot of Jews, but what we do have is almost all NY and CA (used to be swing states, and are still media centers).

99 webevintage  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:49:22pm

Each time a Republican says or writes something like this you just wonder “what was he thinking”.
You think that comments like Demints are beyond the pale and not anything a serious pol would say…
and then you shake your head and sigh deeply…

(of course as a dirty lib I also smile just a little bit on the inside)

100 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:49:54pm

re: #86 Killgore Trout

Update on this guy: Coburn, Price Not Rushing To Embrace Award From Doctor Who Sent Racist Obama Pic

Republicans are trying desperately to survive Glenn Beck and the Tea Parties. Good luck.

They will be unable to survive unless they distance themselves strongly and with no reservations whatsoever. They aren’t going to be able to walk any sort of a line.

101 ~Fianna  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:50:02pm

re: #21 bloodstar

Does the saying lose impact from removing the stereotype? Nope, the saying becomes pithier and succinct (unlike this sentence) when you remove the pointless stereotype.

So why bother with including the stereotype?

Sadly, because they just.can’t.help.themselves.

*sigh*

102 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:50:07pm

re: #89 XopXproxyX

Thanks for admitting that you’re unable to defend yourself.

103 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:50:39pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

So lemmee get this straight- everybody- if not the majoity of teH Right only supports Israel because they want all the JuIce in one handy, nukable place to fufill some doomsday prophecy?

104 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:50:47pm

re: #92 JRCMYP

Someone needs to explain this to me. I truly don’t understand. And please correct me if my impressions are wrong. Because I’m talking only impressions, and not any examples that I could cite:

There’s a part of the Republican party that seems to feel they have a lock on Israel, and defending Israel. They put themselves out there as defenders of the Jewish faith—or something—and paint Democrats as “anti Jew”. Whatever that means. And again, this is an impression.

But my understanding of many of these fine Republicans is that they defend Israel in general, but not Jews in particular.

What is their motive? Is it the strategic position of Israel in the middle east? Is it some fundamentalist religious bizarreness? Is it something else entirely? Because I just don’t get this. At.All.

The numbers of Jews in America is quite small. By themselves they aren’t really capable of the influence that is ascribed to them, The reality is that there are 100 million Americans who strongly believe in the morality of supporting Israel as opposed to those who promise to ‘Finish what Hitler started’ and those supporters are decidedly not Jewish.

What I find incredible is the number of Americans who would throw Israel under the bus at the very first opportunity. That isn’t to say Israel is always right and without baggage, but when you compare that nations to those who would see her eradicated, it’s no contest.

105 RealismRox  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:51:12pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. Pretty scary stuff when you see it raise its head. It has nothing at all to do with any concern for Jews in America.

This is the main reason why fundamentalists support Israel so fervently. They need the Jewish people to control Jerusalem as part of their belief in an end-times prophecy.

Beliefnet End Times Info

106 Jack Burton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:52:26pm

Young Earth Creationist and Evangelical Support for Israel…

Youtube Video

“You wait…”

107 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:52:32pm

re: #103 Fenway_Nation

So lemmee get this straight- everybody- if not the majoity of teH Right only supports Israel because they want all the JuIce in one handy, nukable place to fufill some doomsday prophecy?


I just said that was a line of thinking that underpins a fundamentalist strain of conservative thought. Sagehen summed up the rest of the right’s rationale in #98

108 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:52:39pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

Support of Israel is not merely defined in religious terms.

There is also a moral factor.

109 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:52:47pm

re: #92 JRCMYP

re: #94 ralphieboy

It’s telling the way both of you have framed your questions and reply..
I disagree with pretty much every word you posted…
oh and Ralfie: You said
As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ.
I’ve met a lot of Christian’s in my life..That characterization is so over the top…

110 ~Fianna  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:53:05pm

re: #40 GCM29

Yes that’s true, for some…but I don’t think that is true for the majority of Americans who support Israel. It certainly isn’t true in my case, and I don’t think it is the case for most people on this site.

At least I hope that the majority of Republicans would have better reasons to support a country like Israel.

You do hear that argument in some extreme churches. My housemate grew up in a VERY wacky splinter charismatic church and they loved the Jews and Israel because only when the Jews were ready could the war that would trigger Armageddon and bring back Jesus start.

Hell, someone was arrested for trying to smuggle weapons in to Israel to start that war in 2000.

111 GCM29  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:54:05pm

re: #110 ~Fianna

Yep, no shortage of crazy within some of those churches.

112 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:54:26pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. Pretty scary stuff when you see it raise its head. It has nothing at all to do with any concern for Jews in America.

Yeah, I’ve heard this line of reasoning from the fundies.

I’d like to ask God to hurry up and start Rapturing these yutzes ahead of schedule, please.

113 ~Fianna  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:54:31pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

So what actually draws the line between “anti-Semetic” and merely misguided?

114 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:55:31pm

re: #113 ~Fianna

So what actually draws the line between “anti-Semetic” and merely misguided?

Intent.

115 webevintage  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:56:23pm

re: #99 webevintage

arrrghhh
my bad, I read the article wrong and thought DeMint had written that…
so sorry about the late afternoon moron burp.

116 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:56:46pm

re: #109 HoosierHoops

re: #94 ralphieboy

It’s telling the way both of you have framed your questions and reply..
I disagree with pretty much every word you posted…
oh and Ralfie: You said
As I mentioned earlier, there is a line of fundamentalist Christian thinking that supports Israel in order to aid them bringing about Armageddon and the coming of the Kingdom of Christ.
I’ve met a lot of Christian’s in my life..That characterization is so over the top…

Only depending on the sect of Christians you are talking about. The basic fundies do see Israel more as a key piece of their end time concepts than just seeing the need to support the political entity.

Take it from someone who has belong and hob-nob with more fundies, covenants, Yahist, brethren, church of “god this and that and world wide and…), end timers and so on then the average christian could ever get in to a lifetime

117 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:56:48pm

re: #102 SixDegrees

Take your own advice about a “remedial reading course”, and flame on. Just not with me.

118 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:57:33pm

OT: Remember those Smilin’ Bob Enzyte commercials? I’m trying not to…

Looks like Smilin’ Bob’s long-lost sister has been found. In New Jersey. And she’s running as a Republican for state assembly.

/putting the T&A in StaTe Assembly.

119 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 3:59:11pm

re: #110 ~Fianna

You do hear that argument in some extreme churches. My housemate grew up in a VERY wacky splinter charismatic church and they loved the Jews and Israel because only when the Jews were ready could the war that would trigger Armageddon and bring back Jesus start.

Hell, someone was arrested for trying to smuggle weapons in to Israel to start that war in 2000.

The exact thing you describe is not “extreme” or “wacky” and is not just “splinter” groups. It is part and parcel of most charismatic independent churches, fundamentalist churches and evangelical churches.

120 researchok  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:00:37pm

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

That belongs in the ‘You just can’t make this stuff up’ department.

121 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:00:51pm

There are no end of good reasons for supporting Israel.

And a host of bad ones. And it’s the bad ones are the ones that are getting people killed these days, as these are the ones supporting the most extreme Zionists.

122 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:00:58pm

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

OT: Remember those Smilin’ Bob Enzyte commercials? I’m trying not to…

Looks like Smilin’ Bob’s long-lost sister has been found. In New Jersey. And she’s running as a Republican for state assembly.

/putting the T&A in StaTe Assembly.

She looks kind of hot…

/rawrrr

123 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:02:09pm

The link I gave to email addresses for the two men mentioned above…

[Link: www.imarepublicantoo.com…]

…well it seems that they have removed these two email addresses from their mail server and I go a bounce back.

124 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:02:37pm

re: #113 ~Fianna

Well anti-semitism is making derogatory remarks about or relating to jews in any context.
On the other hand, advocating a political view regarding Israel that you might not agree with is not.

125 freetoken  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:02:57pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

The teaching arose out of Dispensationalism. Over the years basic Dispensational belief incorporated versions of Zionism.

Many American Christian groups ascribe to Dispensationalism. Of the fundamentalists in this country, only a few (e.g., the Rushdoony crowd) are not dispensationalists.

126 Jimmah The Unacceptable  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:03:01pm

Random musical interlude : Sugarcubes - Regina

Youtube Video
127 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:03:11pm

re: #117 XopXproxyX

In other words, you can’t defend yourself, and now want to change the topic.

128 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:03:19pm

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

OT: Remember those Smilin’ Bob Enzyte commercials? I’m trying not to…

Looks like Smilin’ Bob’s long-lost sister has been found. In New Jersey. And she’s running as a Republican for state assembly.

/putting the T&A in StaTe Assembly.


Yunno, if the Republicans could get over their moralizing and interefering in how consenting adults people have fun, I’d probably be a lot more receptive to their arguments about governemnt “interference” in other aspects of economics and society.

129 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:03:53pm

re: #122 talon_262

Yeah…I was getting a ‘sexy nerd’ vibe from her…but damn if that grin didn’t remind me of those damned Enzyte ads.

130 howard2751  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:04:02pm

Dumb, yes; Anti Semitic, probably not. Throwing around the anti Semitic card is like throwing around the race/racist card - it should be saved for when you have a really good hand to play.

This hand is a 10 high. I would say fold.

BTW - not a non observant, cultural Jew, but a full on 100%, goes to Shul Jew.

131 SixDegrees  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:04:05pm

re: #124 XopXproxyX

Well anti-semitism is making derogatory remarks about or relating to jews in any context.

Uh - no.

132 ~Fianna  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:05:05pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

The exact thing you describe is not “extreme” or “wacky” and is not just “splinter” groups. It is part and parcel of most charismatic independent churches, fundamentalist churches and evangelical churches.

I’m only familiar with it from hearing my housemate’s experience, so I didn’t want to paint too broad a picture. The church he grew up in was very wacky and very splinter. I think the pastor that his family followed was tossed out of 3 or 4 other congregations for being strange.

They did the usual charismatic type stuff, but they also had a lot of mysticism and post-60s hippy stuff mixed in. It was a very odd and very sick group.

133 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:06:06pm

re: #128 ralphieboy

Who said anything about moralizing?

134 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:06:20pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Only depending on the sect of Christians you are talking about. The basic fundies do see Israel more as a key piece of their end time concepts than just seeing the need to support the political entity.

Take it from someone who has belong and hob-nob with more fundies, covenants, Yahist, brethren, church of “god this and that and world wide and…), end timers and so on then the average christian could ever get in to a lifetime

You can drive 4 hours south of here and go to church with fundies that believe you should French kiss a rattle snake.. In the name of Jesus…I find it shallow to compare religious whack jobs with a fundamental doctrine of Christians…
I have found 90% of them decent people who believe deeply in Jesus and the world of Love and forgiveness..Not one has ever said to me..Hell hey man! Let’s get dem Jews to blow up the ME and we can get this party started!
Most of them I’ve ever met would step in front of a car for you in the Name of Jesus out of Love…You may think Christians are plotting the end of the world..But I don’t think so…
/Those guys kissing rattlesnake noses freak me out…That’s why I always tease Christians here…Creationists..
But I think the average Christian is OK in my book…

135 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:06:23pm

This is such a bullshit stereotype, even if it does apply to my cheapass brother-in-law.

136 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:06:32pm

re: #124 XopXproxyX

Well anti-semitism is making derogatory remarks about or relating to jews in any context.
On the other hand, advocating a political view regarding Israel that you might not agree with is not.

Really. I think Mark Chargall was a terrible painter. That’s anti-semitic? You’re kidding, right?

137 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:06:39pm

re: #133 Fenway_Nation

Who said anything about moralizing?


Rick Santorum, for starters…shall I name a few more?

138 ~Fianna  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:07:19pm

re: #124 XopXproxyX

Well anti-semitism is making derogatory remarks about or relating to jews in any context.
On the other hand, advocating a political view regarding Israel that you might not agree with is not.

I think this fits in with option number 1.

These kind of arguments come from a really ugly stereotype that has played a big part in drumming up support for pogroms and villiage burnings, not to mention the holocaust.

No, it’s not quite up to the level of tossing around the blood libel, but it’s not benign, either.

139 TedStriker  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:09:57pm

re: #129 Fenway_Nation

Yeah…I was getting a ‘sexy nerd’ vibe from her…but damn if that grin didn’t remind me of those damned Enzyte ads.

I thought the same thing when I saw the picture (which is what the photog was going for, I’m sure, given what she does for a living)…but somehow, her doing the “Smilin’ Bob grin” doesn’t seem as creepy as the original.

140 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:09:57pm

re: #137 ralphieboy

I was talking about in the thread or the article I linked…

But hey…just because the GOP is against gay marriage, I’m sure they’re in the wrong if the oppose the massive job-killer known as cap and trade, Card Check or a second stimulus..

//

141 rwdflynavy  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:10:12pm

OT. Time for the current Great Moments in Socialized Medicine from James Taranto.

“The National Health Service has spent £1.5m [about $2.5 million] paying for hundreds of its staff to have private health treatment so they can leapfrog their own waiting lists,” London’s Sunday Times reports:
More than 3,000 staff, including doctors and nurses, have gone private at the taxpayers’ expense in the past three years because the queues at the clinics and hospitals where they work are too long.

Figures released under the Freedom of Information act show that NHS administrative staff, paramedics and ambulance drivers have also been given free private healthcare. This has covered physiotherapy, osteopathy, psychiatric care and counselling—all widely available on the NHS.

British health care, it seems, resembles American elementary and secondary education, in that the government has a monopoly but there is an expensive private opt-out—and many of those who run the monopoly avail themselves of the private system. If you like the public schools, you’ll love ObamaCare!

One wonders, though, don’t the NHS docs and other staffers read the New York Times? After all, as former Enron adviser Paul Krugman has noted, “In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false.”

142 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:11:00pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

You can drive 4 hours south of here and go to church with fundies that believe you should French kiss a rattle snake.. In the name of Jesus…I find it shallow to compare religious whack jobs with a fundamental doctrine of Christians…
I have found 90% of them decent people who believe deeply in Jesus and the world of Love and forgiveness..Not one has ever said to me..Hell hey man! Let’s get dem Jews to blow up the ME and we can get this party started!
Most of them I’ve ever met would step in front of a car for you in the Name of Jesus out of Love…You may think Christians are plotting the end of the world..But I don’t think so…
/Those guys kissing rattlesnake noses freak me out…That’s why I always tease Christians here…Creationists..
But I think the average Christian is OK in my book…

It’s not my fault if you hang around with a bunch of old fuddy duddy fundamentalist who can’t ever get it up enough to put on a good old fashioned crusade in the Middle East.

In my “believer” days, I’ve known the best, end timer, pick which heathen neighbors house you want for after Armageddon, rapture crazed, spirit-filled Warriors of Christ that you could ever want to know.

143 rwdflynavy  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:12:20pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

It’s not my fault if you hang around with a bunch of old fuddy duddy fundamentalist who can’t ever get it up enough to put on a good old fashioned crusade in the Middle East.

In my “believer” days, I’ve known the best, end timer, pick which heathen neighbors house you want for after Armageddon, rapture crazed, spirit-filled Warriors of Christ that you could ever want to know.

That might be a big part of why you are an atheist. Please don’t judge Christians by your narrow experience.

144 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:12:25pm

While we are doing musical interludes, one to set the mood…

Youtube Video

I gotta go to bed, it is getting late in Germany, perhaps I will read myself to sleep with Heinrich Heine’s “The Rabbi of Bacherach”

145 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:14:37pm

re: #144 ralphieboy

weet dreams
Be well

146 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:17:41pm

re: #143 rwdflynavy

That might be a big part of why you are an atheist. Please don’t judge Christians by your narrow experience.

First off, you evidently don’t catch sarcasm and satire. Second, just about everyone on LGF knows that I don’t judge anyone, any Christian for their faith. And I never put anyone down for their belief. If they want to give me a point of view as to why they believe, than I will oblige and respond back why I don’t agree.

I know more about the texts you call the Bible, more about the many flavors of Christianity and Judaism, more about the crazies and the sane, then most people.

So, please don’t suggest my atheism has anything to do with my experiences with Christians.

It has to do with science.

147 XopXproxyX  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:18:25pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

If you think Mark Chargall was a terrible painter because he was Jewish, then yes. But I’m sure you don’t actually think that.

148 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:21:06pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Really. I think Mark Chargall was a terrible painter. That’s anti-semitic? You’re kidding, right?

If you really know he was a great painter but are just saying he was terrible because he was a Jew, then yes, it’s anti-semitic. Or if you dislike his art because the Jewish images turn your stomach with hate, then yes, it’s anti-semitic.

149 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:22:47pm

re: #147 XopXproxyX

If you think Mark Chargall was a terrible painter because he was Jewish, then yes. But I’m sure you don’t actually think that.

I like a few painters…But most I think suck regardless of Religion or Nationality…If it doesn’t look like a Maxwell Parrish I say burn it in the town Square..
*wink*

150 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:22:54pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

First off, you evidently don’t catch sarcasm and satire. Second, just about everyone on LGF knows that I don’t judge anyone, any Christian for their faith. And I never put anyone down for their belief. If they want to give me a point of view as to why they believe, than I will oblige and respond back why I don’t agree.

I know more about the texts you call the Bible, more about the many flavors of Christianity and Judaism, more about the crazies and the sane, then most people.

So, please don’t suggest my atheism has anything to do with my experiences with Christians.

It has to do with science.

If you don’t mind me asking a question, may I opine? You say that your atheism has everything to do with science. By definition, an atheist is someone who “denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.” May I ask how science has proven to you that God does not exist?

151 JRCMYP  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:23:23pm

re: #109 HoosierHoops

Okay, that’s fine. Like I said, this is an impression. Full disclaimer, I live in the Northeast. I’m a former Catholic—and was always taught the religious debt to the Jewish religion (but I’m agnostic and perhaps an atheist now, thank you Jesuit college). I feel more in tune with the Jewish religion than any evangelical christian one because the Catholic faith is, in many ways, culture bound like the Jewish faith. That said, I truly want to understand what seems to me—as a center-left agnostic, Independent voting (seriously) Massachusetts resident—what the Republican deal is with Israel?

And honestly, I’m not a Democrat. I’m just not. I loved Weld. Voted for Romney. Was dismayed when he suddenly became anti-gay and anti-choice. I have a big beef with the Democratic congress right now.

But what I don’t hear is that Republican’s back Israel because they are a democracy in the middle east. That I understand. And that—I think—isn’t a Democratic or Republican issue. It’s an American one. So, what I think my question is, is this: is it that Republicans are more hawkish in their approach to defending Israel’s democracy, and Democrats are more diplomatic in the dealings between Israel and Pakistan?

To be clear, I see egregious behavior on the part of both Pakistan and Israel. But the history of these states is modern, and convoluted, and beyond complicated.

I would like the Republican party to shed the pretense of religious defense. Please, be agnostic in your approach. Because that, at least, seems more honest to me.

And the Democrats—be honest about what the end game will be. Because having a democracy in the middle east is a good thing, yes. But will you defend it? Always? And if you think they are wrong, will you allow them to stand on their own and risk the demise of that democracy?

And for both parties, how far will you go? And why? And why are you posturing about who loves Israel more?

152 simoom  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:26:07pm

I thought this twitter exchange was kind of amusing:

WSJ just called. Apparently a small rock salt company has been sending hundreds of bags to Olympia Snowe’s office in Maine. Yay RS Readers
Twitter: ewerickson
@ewerickson Do you forsee any potential panic with right wingers mailing white crystaline substances to the Senate House? Remember Anthrax?
Twitter: Stellar_
@Stellar_ not really. Going to state office and clearly labeled. Also large pieces, not a powder.
Twitter: ewerickson
@ewerickson I can clearly label a cheese sandwich, PB&J. I just think you could have picked a less Terrorist Alert Level-raising material.
Twitter: Stellar_
@Stellar_ I think that is rather mountain out of molehill-ish.
Twitter: ewerickson
@ewerickson Time will tell. And the FBI; time and the FBI.
Twitter: Stellar_
153 Cato the Elder  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:26:08pm

re: #144 ralphieboy

I gotta go to bed, it is getting late in Germany, perhaps I will read myself to sleep with Heinrich Heine’s “The Rabbi of Bacherach”

Try this. It’s one of Heine’s funnier poems. I translated it once, years ago.

154 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:26:22pm

re: #94 ralphieboy

We Jews vote Democratic, by and large. President George Bush (not his father) was very popular in certain circles, because “there was no daylight between him” and the governments Israel had during his eight years in office. Which, as we can see, seems to have not much of a positive effect on Israel’s situation today.

There’s a big difference between what people try to believe, or pretend to believe, and what theey believe in their hearts. I understand that many many folks believe in a place called Hell; and some of those folks are taught that Jews who don’t convert are gonna land there.

Is it conceivable that more than a small minority of Americans believe this in their hearts? I find that unlikely. It’s just something to talk about. If it were otherwise, then we wouldn’t be able to live with one another - and we do live with one another.

I grew up in an “ethnic” environment. I had pennies rolled at me, was verbally abused, bullied, etc. because I am a Jew. My old man had it a lot worse.

Things have changed a lot in this country, for the better. There’s not much else to explain.

There will always be a certain trafficking in stereotypical perceptions of ethnic groups, which are putatively endowed with shared characteristics.

Being accused of thrift is not exactly a mortal insult.

Calling someone out for having the “wrong” opinion re Israel is, on the other hand, disturbing. The Republicans and Democrats throw that crap around. At the end of the day, we Jews vote for Democrats. Books have been devoted to that phenomenon. I’m not gonna wwrite one here - I wouldn;t even if I were qualified to do so - and I’m not.

It’s just no big deal.

155 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:27:22pm

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Really. I think Mark Chargall was a terrible painter. That’s anti-semitic? You’re kidding, right?

I think Picasso was a sucky painter. That must make me anti-Spanish.

156 rwdflynavy  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:27:28pm

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

First off, you evidently don’t catch sarcasm and satire. Second, just about everyone on LGF knows that I don’t judge anyone, any Christian for their faith. And I never put anyone down for their belief. If they want to give me a point of view as to why they believe, than I will oblige and respond back why I don’t agree.

I know more about the texts you call the Bible, more about the many flavors of Christianity and Judaism, more about the crazies and the sane, then most people.

So, please don’t suggest my atheism has anything to do with my experiences with Christians.

It has to do with science.


Must have missed your sarc tag.

157 JRCMYP  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:27:30pm

re: #105 RealismRox

This is the main reason why fundamentalists support Israel so fervently. They need the Jewish people to control Jerusalem as part of their belief in an end-times prophecy.

Beliefnet End Times Info

Okay, this just seems like some crazy small fringe part of American culture. I refuse to believe it has any power whatsoever until someone gives me hard numbers about the number of poeple who believe this and actively promote this ideology. Not to mention, anyone who can cite serious examples of ideology turning into policy. And don’t quote the Iraq war because I don’t believe that.

158 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:27:56pm

re: #151 JRCMYP

A very lucid post
Kudo’s
/I’m ex-Catholic also…Well I think I am..They say they want me back but secretly the Priest is praying every night that that loud mouth opinionated Hoopster doesn’t show up Sunday…So far his prayers are being answered

159 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:30:20pm

re: #151 JRCMYP

Okay, that’s fine. Like I said, this is an impression. Full disclaimer, I live in the Northeast. I’m a former Catholic—and was always taught the religious debt to the Jewish religion (but I’m agnostic and perhaps an atheist now, thank you Jesuit college). I feel more in tune with the Jewish religion than any evangelical christian one because the Catholic faith is, in many ways, culture bound like the Jewish faith. That said, I truly want to understand what seems to me—as a center-left agnostic, Independent voting (seriously) Massachusetts resident—what the Republican deal is with Israel?

And honestly, I’m not a Democrat. I’m just not. I loved Weld. Voted for Romney. Was dismayed when he suddenly became anti-gay and anti-choice. I have a big beef with the Democratic congress right now.

But what I don’t hear is that Republican’s back Israel because they are a democracy in the middle east. That I understand. And that—I think—isn’t a Democratic or Republican issue. It’s an American one. So, what I think my question is, is this: is it that Republicans are more hawkish in their approach to defending Israel’s democracy, and Democrats are more diplomatic in the dealings between Israel and Pakistan?

To be clear, I see egregious behavior on the part of both Pakistan and Israel. But the history of these states is modern, and convoluted, and beyond complicated.

I would like the Republican party to shed the pretense of religious defense. Please, be agnostic in your approach. Because that, at least, seems more honest to me.

And the Democrats—be honest about what the end game will be. Because having a democracy in the middle east is a good thing, yes. But will you defend it? Always? And if you think they are wrong, will you allow them to stand on their own and risk the demise of that democracy?

And for both parties, how far will you go? And why? And why are you posturing about who loves Israel more?

Pakistan, Shmakistan.
Most Americans, across party lines, still support Israel.
That is good enough for me.

160 simoom  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:31:45pm

re: #152 simoom

Just a quick follow-up. The bags of rock salt are being sent because of this:
RedStare: Pour Rock Salt on Snowe (Erick Erickson)

161 Splatt  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:32:19pm

Merwin? Ulmer? I don’t know - they sound suspiciously like Jewish names to me.

There’s plenty of Hasidim down there, you know. The Dukes of Haifa.

162 simoom  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:33:27pm

re: #160 simoom

RedStare

err, RedState even :P.

163 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:34:55pm

re: #160 simoom

What an idiot. I hope he enjoys his visit from the Secret Service.

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:35:38pm

re: #150 Jetpilot1101

If you don’t mind me asking a question, may I opine? You say that your atheism has everything to do with science. By definition, an atheist is someone who “denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.” May I ask how science has proven to you that God does not exist?

First off, science has proven to me G-d doesn’t exist. I can only speak for myself.

How. Because, putting “feelings” aside (“I know G-d exists because I feel, believe… etc”), the ONLY foundation Judaism and Christianity has is the hebrew and greek scriptures.

And peer reviewed science (archeologist, geologists, textual critics, linguists and so on) have proven that the text is a combination of myth, fictional history, borrow older stories from other cultures, mistaken archeology and some fact.

Yet this is the “proof text” that is studied every day in theological schools, discussed every Sunday (or Shabbat), turned to for all sorts of information about ones religious roots, and faulty book has been used to wage war, this is it, the roots of all knowledge of G-d.

Nope. As much as science speaks to the facts of AGW, the universe, evolution and so on, it also speaks to the absense of facts when it comes to the myths and miracle of the biblical text.

If you believe G-d exists, fine, I can’t deny your belief if my life depended on it. But if you tell me you know G-d exists, than we have a debatable position to work from.

That’s the only proof I need.

165 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:38:03pm

re: #155 Alouette

I think Picasso was a sucky painter. That must make me anti-Spanish.

You understand I was making a point. I think Chagall is wonderful. And I am certainly not anti-semitic. For a matter of fact, I am also very much a Zionist.

166 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:39:10pm

re: #90 Guanxi88

My folk has honest to goodness wobblies not too far back, and the trade unionism thing was strong with us. Most of my relatives see their democratic politics as the practical expression of their Judaism,

The Pittsburgh variant of White Irish Catholic Democrat (WICD) will get
you there too.

167 sagehen  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:40:57pm

re: #157 JRCMYP

Okay, this just seems like some crazy small fringe part of American culture. I refuse to believe it has any power whatsoever until someone gives me hard numbers about the number of poeple who believe this and actively promote this ideology. Not to mention, anyone who can cite serious examples of ideology turning into policy. And don’t quote the Iraq war because I don’t believe that.

It only seems fringe-y because you’re in Massachussetts. There’s millions — literally millions. The National Association of Evangelicals (Ted Haggard’s old outfit) supposedly represents churches with combined congregations of 30 million, and this is what their sermons are about. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones preached this stuff. Franklin Graham preaches this stuff.

As for how it’s affected policy… the Bush administration was supportive of everything Likud ever wanted to do ever. American Republicans are more supportive of Likud than Israelis are.

168 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:41:28pm

re: #149 HoosierHoops

I like a few painters…But most I think suck regardless of Religion or Nationality…If it doesn’t look like a Maxwell Parrish I say burn it in the town Square..
*wink*

Did he ever paint a burning town square…

169 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:44:03pm

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

You understand I was making a point. I think Chagall is wonderful. And I am certainly not anti-semitic. For a matter of fact, I am also very much a Zionist.

It’s OK to not like Chagall. I think he is very overrated.

170 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:45:35pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

WLN, thanks for your answer. That’s all I was looking for, an answer and to better understand where you were coming from. I can’t prove to you God exists because frankly, my belief is based largely on what some would call coincidence, feeling, chance or luck. I happen to call it faith in God. I don’t believe anyone can prove or disprove the existence of God, it’s all about how we interpret the data we are presented with. I am a student of science, I do believe in evolution and I find that perfectly compatible with my belief in God. Again, thank you for your answer and to echo something you previously said, I have never found you to be condescending towards Christians or berate them in any way.

171 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:46:41pm

re: #168 Walter L. Newton

Did he ever paint a burning town square…

That’s more the style of Kincaide.

172 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:46:45pm

re: #169 Alouette

It’s OK to not like Chagall. I think he is very overrated.

I like him, period.

An interesting line in the show we are doing currently at work, Jeffery Hatcher’s “A Picasso.” A female Nazi cultural attache’ asks Picasso “Could you forge the Mona Lisa?” and he answers… “Certainly… but you would never recognize her!”

173 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:47:03pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

First off, science has proven to me G-d doesn’t exist. I can only speak for myself.
Science cannot prove nor disprove God’s existence…
I know this…More people in all our History have died in the name of God than for any other reason.. The Streets of Jerusalem ran with Blood in the Name of Jesus in the past…How many innocents have perished hearing their last words Allah Akbar? How many Wars? How many untold millions?
Why? Because God will not reveal His face to us…The Creator of the Universe hides from his work..So I have to take somebodies words thousands of years ago that knew nothing..Even how to invent and use Toilette paper..
They knew God? I don’t think so.. My journey begins and ends in my heart…I’m not buying into Man kinds version of religion..

174 miguelj  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:49:04pm

in their clumsy way, they are trying to be complimentary to the Jews…

175 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:50:45pm

re: #173 HoosierHoops

First off, science has proven to me G-d doesn’t exist. I can only speak for myself.
Science cannot prove nor disprove God’s existence…
I know this…More people in all our History have died in the name of God than for any other reason.. The Streets of Jerusalem ran with Blood in the Name of Jesus in the past…How many innocents have perished hearing their last words Allah Akbar? How many Wars? How many untold millions?
Why? Because God will not reveal His face to us…The Creator of the Universe hides from his work..So I have to take somebodies words thousands of years ago that knew nothing..Even how to invent and use Toilette paper..
They knew God? I don’t think so.. My journey begins and ends in my heart…I’m not buying into Man kinds version of religion..

Hoosier… science can certainly prove the correctness or wrongness of all of the physical evidence, physical history, physical trappings that is foundational to the existence of what is called Judaism and Christianity.

Science can’t prove or disprove what someone believes, feels or wants to accept, right, wrong or indifferent. It’s that simple.

176 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:50:49pm

re: #174 miguelj

in their clumsy way, they are trying to be complimentary to the Jews…

Then they might just have said they have a good sense of klezmer rhythm.

177 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:51:14pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

So you’ve established to you own satisfaction what Maimonides established 1000 years ago: Any fixed conception of God has to be false.

That’s all you’ve established. You’ve arrived at the conclusion that existence cannot be contingent upon a conception of God. This in no way touches upon the existence or non-existence of God. It only shows the irrelevance of theology to material phenomena. What’s that got to to do with God?

178 JRCMYP  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:57:37pm

re: #167 sagehen

It only seems fringe-y because you’re in Massachussetts. There’s millions — literally millions. The National Association of Evangelicals (Ted Haggard’s old outfit) supposedly represents churches with combined congregations of 30 million, and this is what their sermons are about. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones preached this stuff. Franklin Graham preaches this stuff.

As for how it’s affected policy… the Bush administration was supportive of everything Likud ever wanted to do ever. American Republicans are more supportive of Likud than Israelis are.

I have no idea who Ted Haggard is. And what do you mean the Bush admin was supportive of everything Likud did? Can you be more specific.

As for the millions—those are the people who showed up at churches. Did they actually give a shit? Did they act on it? Donate money toward something? What? I just don’t understand. And maybe it’s because I live in the land of Unitarian, make-pot-legal, gay-marriage, state-mandated-health care (which, by the way, I fully support all of the above except for completely questioning the administrative costs of the health care consortium). Sure, I know all sorts of people who are interested and supportive (in a fractured sort of way) of social justice in international arenas. But there is not large scale political movement that impacts us locally. We have opinions that we express based on our own basic moral compass. But there is no organized outreach.

Are you saying that churches outside of the northeast are taking on the role of centralizing social policy for America? Because that’s all sorts of fucked up.

179 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 4:58:48pm

re: #177 pdc_lgf

So you’ve established to you own satisfaction what Maimonides established 1000 years ago: Any fixed conception of God has to be false.

That’s all you’ve established. You’ve arrived at the conclusion that existence cannot be contingent upon a conception of God. This in no way touches upon the existence or non-existence of God. It only shows the irrelevance of theology to material phenomena. What’s that got to to do with God?

I’ll give you the same answer…

Science can certainly prove the correctness or wrongness of all of the physical evidence, physical history, physical trappings that is foundational to the existence of what is called Judaism and Christianity.

Science can’t prove or disprove what someone believes, feels or wants to accept, right, wrong or indifferent. It’s that simple.

I don’t have to take it any further. If you need to, if you have a need to try to understand every philosopher, church father, religious thinker, if that helps “prove” to you that what you feel is correct, is right, if that makes you comfortable, good.

You probably can relate two thousand years of wordy existentialism to me on this subject.

I only need the last 100 years of science that has gone into the study of the physical foundations of our religions to tell me what I need to know.

180 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:00:06pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Hoosier… science can certainly prove the correctness or wrongness of all of the physical evidence, physical history, physical trappings that is foundational to the existence of what is called Judaism and Christianity.
None of that is true…Remember man is supposed to be a spiritual creature
Watchman Knee said that man lives in 3 spheres.. The physical world.. The World of the Soul ( the mind) And the Spirit..Nothing in the Physical world counts.. Science cannot disapprove God because it is in the wrong sphere..
( convenient I know)
/I’m not trying to spin you up my friend…

181 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:00:51pm

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

OT: Remember those Smilin’ Bob Enzyte commercials? I’m trying not to…

Looks like Smilin’ Bob’s long-lost sister has been found. In New Jersey. And she’s running as a Republican for state assembly.

/putting the T&A in StaTe Assembly.

Now that’s my kind of Republican.

I’m thinking she’s more on the fiscally responsible and strong defense side of the platform.

182 albusteve  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:01:24pm

I never argue theology…but I let Pat Condell speak for me

183 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:02:38pm

re: #173 HoosierHoops

First off, science has proven to me G-d doesn’t exist. I can only speak for myself.
Science cannot prove nor disprove God’s existence…
.

The priest and the atheist both describe the geography of a land they
have not visited.

184 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:03:28pm

re: #180 HoosierHoops

Hoosier… science can certainly prove the correctness or wrongness of all of the physical evidence, physical history, physical trappings that is foundational to the existence of what is called Judaism and Christianity.
None of that is true…Remember man is supposed to be a spiritual creature
Watchman Knee said that man lives in 3 spheres.. The physical world.. The World of the Soul ( the mind) And the Spirit..Nothing in the Physical world counts.. Science cannot disapprove God because it is in the wrong sphere..
( convenient I know)
/I’m not trying to spin you up my friend…

You quote me from men (I know who Watchman is) who use the same faulty texts that I have been saying is the foundation for any and all theology that Watchman or Fawell or Robertson use to make their points, to build their theology. Science has proven the texts are faulty.

185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:04:30pm

Don’t these people have people?

186 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:04:30pm

re: #180 HoosierHoops

And you know by now, you should, that this is a debate, not a reflection of what I think of you and I would hope not what you think of me. We will never see eye to eye on this.

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:06:35pm

Oh! What did I just step in?

188 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:08:32pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

The priest and the atheist both describe the geography of a land they
have not visited.

And the archeologist describes the fallacies in the hebrew and greek texts, and the textual critic, using tried and true textual science proves the origins of many scriptural stories are from older myths, borrowed from other cultures and times and the geologist shows you were descriptions of geography in the text could not have existed in the time and place that is attributed to them in the scripture.

And the foundation crumbles.

189 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:09:08pm

re: #187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh! What did I just step in?

Merde?

190 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

You quote me from men (I know who Watchman is) who use the same faulty texts that I have been saying is the foundation for any and all theology that Watchman or Fawell or Robertson use to make their points, to build their theology. Science has proven the texts are faulty.

Damn..You may be the only lizard here that knows Watchman..
OK The man on the TV is telling you to send money to him and praise God and put your hands up and be Healed…
/The BMW payment is due…
//Don’t trash Watchman though..He really had a spirit..Was nothing like modern day preachers…

191 Jack Burton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:10:26pm

On a lighter note…

“Just pay the parking ticket. Don’t be so outraged. You’re not a freedom fighter in the civil rights movement. You double parked.” - Justin’s Dad

192 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:10:35pm

re: #190 HoosierHoops


i read the comic book…does that count?

193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:11:02pm

I was let off on a speeding ticket tonight.

SIXTEEN MILES OVER!

WOO HOO!

194 HoosierHoops  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:11:47pm

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

And you know by now, you should, that this is a debate, not a reflection of what I think of you and I would hope not what you think of me. We will never see eye to eye on this.

You are good people…And i really respect your opinions..
But It’s in my LGF Contract that for every 10000 times I make fun of Religious people I have to post one kind thing…
/I’m firing my agent next year

195 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:11:48pm

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

I’ll give you the same answer…

Science can certainly prove the correctness or wrongness of all of the physical evidence, physical history, physical trappings that is foundational to the existence of what is called Judaism and Christianity.

Science can’t prove or disprove what someone believes, feels or wants to accept, right, wrong or indifferent. It’s that simple.

I don’t have to take it any further. If you need to, if you have a need to try to understand every philosopher, church father, religious thinker, if that helps “prove” to you that what you feel is correct, is right, if that makes you comfortable, good.

You probably can relate two thousand years of wordy existentialism to me on this subject.

I only need the last 100 years of science that has gone into the study of the physical foundations of our religions to tell me what I need to know.

On the other hand, just because the literal truth of certain parts of the scriptures can be successfully challenged by science does not constitute proof of the non-existence of God. The ultimate questions remain unproven.

196 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:14:52pm

re: #194 HoosierHoops

You are good people…And i really respect your opinions..
But It’s in my LGF Contract that for every 10000 times I make fun of Religious people I have to post one kind thing…
/I’m firing my agent next year

{hoops}
You’re good people.
I always knew it.

197 RealismRox  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:15:32pm

re: #178 JRCMYP

Not that this is hard proof of anything, just take a look at the first minute of this video. Small bit of evidence of the intersection between Christianity, Republicans and support of Israel.

Rapture Ready - Youtube

198 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:15:50pm

re: #190 HoosierHoops

Damn..You may be the only lizard here that knows Watchman..
OK The man on the TV is telling you to send money to him and praise God and put your hands up and be Healed…
/The BMW payment is due…
//Don’t trash Watchman though..He really had a spirit..Was nothing like modern day preachers…

He was a wonderful teacher, and far from the stereotypical preacher that we love to hate. No, I know a lot about him, have read a lot of his stuff, and of course I don’t not recommend him to those inclined to his sort of spirit. Better than most teachers, if I had to pick a modern day religious philosopher.

199 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:16:07pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

And the archeologist describes the fallacies in the hebrew and greek texts, and the textual critic, using tried and true textual science proves the origins of many scriptural stories are from older myths, borrowed from other cultures and times and the geologist shows you were descriptions of geography in the text could not have existed in the time and place that is attributed to them in the scripture.

And the foundation crumbles.

That pretty much deflates the priest, but does not do anything for the
atheist.

(I admit this all bogs down over definitions of “atheist”. My rejection is
for those who make a positive statement of non-existence.)

200 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:17:15pm

Yes of course, how obvious can it be?

Jim De Mint’s opposition to earmark spending is exactly like a Jew making his wealth by penny-pinching. Just like Obama’s wanting to increase volunteerism in this country is exactly like Hitler’s creation of the Brownshirts. (wtf?)

//

P.S. I have to thank Charles for using the cluebat on the GOP, since no one else seems willing to do it.

201 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:17:39pm

re: #195 Spare O’Lake

On the other hand, just because the literal truth of certain parts of the scriptures can be successfully challenged by science does not constitute proof of the non-existence of God. The ultimate questions remain unproven.

Well sure, and as we have gone over before, can’t prove there isn’t a big spaghetti monster floating behind the sun.

But considering the only “proof” “he” left us, the odds are not that good.

202 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:18:13pm

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

What is it you consider “foundational” for Judaism? Specifically, what material phenomena?

As for the Biblical texts, Judaism moved beyond literalism a long time ago.

I think a better way to look at it is this. We can start with the contradictions within everything preceding Moses. What evidence do we have that the ancients were immune to these contradictions? Is there evidence that humans were stupider, say 2500 years ago, than they are today? I think the burden of proof would be to show that folks a long time ago took the Jwish Bible literally. (I mean stupider, not more ignorant. Of course, time having a preferred direction, and human memory being cumulative, they were more ignorant.)

Certainly, the Catholic Church didn’t and hasn’t. They were careful - and I think this is a good & wise thing - to say that they were the final arbiters - not the Jewish Bible.

203 avanti  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:19:45pm

re: #199 Decatur Deb

That pretty much deflates the priest, but does not do anything for the
atheist.

(I admit this all bogs down over definitions of “atheist”. My rejection is
for those who make a positive statement of non-existence.)

That’s why I’m a agnostic, I can’t be sure there is not some supernatural entity in the universe. If there is, we’re just speculating on something to complex to understand.

204 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:19:49pm

re: #200 ausador

Yes of course, how obvious can it be?

Jim De Mint’s opposition to earmark spending is exactly like a Jew making his wealth by penny-pinching. Just like Obama’s wanting to increase volunteerism in this country is exactly like Hitler’s creation of the Brownshirts. (wtf?)

//

P.S. I have to thank Charles for using the cluebat on the GOP, since no one else seems willing to do it.

I’m grateful for it too, since too much of the GOP has decided to cozy up to racists. They need reminders that doing so is bad and makes you an asshole.

205 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:20:07pm

re: #199 Decatur Deb

That pretty much deflates the priest, but does not do anything for the
atheist.

(I admit this all bogs down over definitions of “atheist”. My rejection is
for those who make a positive statement of non-existence.)

Well of course I can make a positive statement for non-existence, as much as you can for existence, but considering the only “proof” “he” left us, the odds are not that good for your side.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:20:48pm

re: #43 XopXproxyX

Anti-Semitism is an extremely serious charge and not one that I think applies. You could level the same charges at Jerry Falwell, with him making statements that historical anti semitism was basically brought about by the Jews themselves, however I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt and just think he is very misguided.
It’s better to just not play the racism card unless you are sure it is totally valid.

So what’s the idea here? Because saying someone is a racist is a ‘very serious charge’, we don’t call out people for saying racist things?

Falwell said anti-Semitic shit all the time, and now come these two. They made a large mistake. They’re going to be told about it. Any possible reason why not? How is that ‘playing the race card’?

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:21:58pm

re: #51 Thanos

This is not good:

US Scientist Arrested on Charges of Spying for Israel

That’s bad.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:23:51pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

Yep, one way or the other.

Seriously, though, my relatives had a harder time coming to grips with the fact that I was a republican than they did with the fact that my wife was a Protestant.

I should think so!

/My mother will only let me play here because I’ve promised I won’t become a Republican

209 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:24:49pm

re: #205 Walter L. Newton

Well of course I can make a positive statement for non-existence, as much as you can for existence

Not making myself clear, Walter. I don’t make a statement for existence.
I’m passionately agnostic, with a Nostalgic flavor—sometimes I wish the
nuns had been right.

210 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:26:21pm

re: #202 pdc_lgf

What is it you consider “foundational” for Judaism? Specifically, what material phenomena?

As for the Biblical texts, Judaism moved beyond literalism a long time ago.

I think a better way to look at it is this. We can start with the contradictions within everything preceding Moses. What evidence do we have that the ancients were immune to these contradictions? Is there evidence that humans were stupider, say 2500 years ago, than they are today? I think the burden of proof would be to show that folks a long time ago took the Jwish Bible literally. (I mean stupider, not more ignorant. Of course, time having a preferred direction, and human memory being cumulative, they were more ignorant.)

Certainly, the Catholic Church didn’t and hasn’t. They were careful - and I think this is a good & wise thing - to say that they were the final arbiters - not the Jewish Bible.

Of course Judaism moved beyond literalism a long time ago, especially when they saw how problematic the texts were. So, the target gets moved, and that fixes everything? No, that just add fuel to my fire.

It doesn’t matter how the biblical text have been reexamine and reinterpreted over the last 2500 years, it’s the fact itself that they have been.

Why, because they are faulty. And you glow over the fact that the way Judaism and Christianity looks at those text have changed, as if that fixes everything. No, it’s a vain attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole, a square peg that has been proven to be made of rotten wood.

211 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:26:28pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

/My mother will only let me play here because I’ve promised I won’t become a Republican

Little girl to Nun: “When I grow up, I want to be a prostitute!
Nun: “You want to be a what?!”
Girl: “Prostitute.”
Nun: “Thank God. I thought you said Protestant.”

212 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:26:55pm

re: #209 Decatur Deb

Not making myself clear, Walter. I don’t make a statement for existence.
I’m passionately agnostic, with a Nostalgic flavor—sometimes I wish the
nuns had been right.

Got it.

213 Plato  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:27:26pm

re: #202 pdc_lgf

I don’t think Jews moved beyond literalism. The Karaites existed for 700 years with their literal views and vanished. Christians were another sect that incorporated into the Roman structure.

But Jews who learned the oral law continued…not moved beyond but survived. Many think Pharisees were not nice people but that’s a point of contention.

What was is and continues to be.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:33:06pm

re: #87 ralphieboy

You sum it up quite concisely, perhaps also because they do not share the Calvinist sentiments that underpin a lot of conservative Free market thinking.

Probably. I’m always somewhat stymied when I hear people say “Well I don’t want to have to pay for X for the poor with my tax money.” Well, where do you think it’s coming from then? If they had the money for it, they wouldn’t be poor.

(I write this to express my cultural perspective, not to start an argument about the various merits of state and private charities, or any related topic. Something to bear in mind, however.)

215 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:37:22pm

re: #213 Plato

How can learning the Oral Law coexist with literalism + knowledge of the material world? I will grant you that among the pious, there are great efforts to maintain certain pretenses. But in any practical sense, does literalism serve anything but social and political purposes?

Perhaps I was too simplistic in my previous statement about literalism. My point is that in the last 2000 years, the literal interpretation has always run a distinct second to something else. Either the Oral Law, or in a much later period, various mystical doctrines.

216 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:38:46pm

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

What is your fire? Nobody worships the texts. They worship God.

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:40:42pm

re: #144 ralphieboy

While we are doing musical interludes, one to set the mood…

[Video]

I gotta go to bed, it is getting late in Germany, perhaps I will read myself to sleep with Heinrich Heine’s “The Rabbi of Bacherach”

Sure, and then you’ll sleep like a baby…

218 dugmartsch  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:40:52pm
Anti-Semitism is an extremely serious charge and not one that I think applies. You could level the same charges at Jerry Falwell, with him making statements that historical anti semitism was basically brought about by the Jews themselves, however I am willing to give him the benifit of the doubt and just think he is very misguided.
It’s better to just not play the racism card unless you are sure it is totally valid.

Yeah so perpetuating racial stereotypes is racism by any definition. We reserve a special kind of antipathy for anti-semitism because it very recently brought about the near extinction of a race of very wonderful human beings.

We don’t take chances with the marginal calls on stuff like this anymore.

And our society is much more peaceful for having done so, though it has much progress to make.

This is the kind of thing you get away from as quickly as you can, and the kind of thinking you make sure that the leaders of any group you affiliate yourself with do not condone. God forbid that those leaders would subscribe to that kind of thinking themselves. That is a hate group.

219 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:42:54pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

Well sure, and as we have gone over before, can’t prove there isn’t a big spaghetti monster floating behind the sun.

But considering the only “proof” “he” left us, the odds are not that good.

The Spaghetti Monster - even the flying version - does not address the ultimate question of whether a higher intelligence caused the Big Bang, or whether the very first unicellular bit of life on Earth was created or just happened by chance? I am forced to concede in all honesty that neither science nor religion has the proof of the answers to those questions, and therefore to allow for the possibility.

220 fizzlogic  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:45:01pm

I think people are misinterpreting this. These guys are praising Jewish thriftiness much like Rush Limbaugh did when he referred to it as Jewish Capitalism. And unlike the U.S. Democratic Party and the Nazis of Germany, conservatives love Jews and their thriftiness.

/ (is this really necessary?)

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:45:29pm

re: #174 miguelj

in their clumsy way, they are trying to be complimentary to the Jews…

1950 called. It wants its compliment back.

222 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:45:51pm

re: #28 Virginia Plain

And the GOP expects to win over Jewish people into their party? Not with this.

They’re aiming to break through that elusive 12% barrier?

Seriously though, they seem to think that excluding anybody who isn’t a fat white Creationist moron with a pro-slavery sticker on his truck is a valid strategy. Good luck with that, fellas…

223 albusteve  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:48:27pm

re: #219 Spare O’Lake

The Spaghetti Monster - even the flying version - does not address the ultimate question of whether a higher intelligence caused the Big Bang, or whether the very first unicellular bit of life on Earth was created or just happened by chance? I am forced to concede in all honesty that neither science nor religion has the proof of the answers to those questions, and therefore to allow for the possibility.

we will all find out when we experience the Big Dead…if there some sort of existence after this one, I may consider God has bigger plan going

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:50:41pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

And the archeologist describes the fallacies in the hebrew and greek texts, and the textual critic, using tried and true textual science proves the origins of many scriptural stories are from older myths, borrowed from other cultures and times and the geologist shows you were descriptions of geography in the text could not have existed in the time and place that is attributed to them in the scripture.

And the foundation crumbles.

Only if you see the texts as infalliable proofs, rather than records of the concepts of a faith.

225 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:51:08pm

Oh come on, does anyone really think that they are going to prove or disprove God to anyone on a webblog?

Personal faith or the lack thereof should be exactly that, personal.

Science cannot be used to disprove God, God cannot be used to disprove science, there is no straight-line correlation between belief and knowledge. Those that have faith do so because of an inner belief and feelings of connection to something infinitely greater and will not be swayed by any arguments of lack of testable proof. Those that do not have faith, however much they inwardly feel themselves to be correct about the non-existence of God will never be able to prove it, either to themselves or to anyone else.

This is ultimately a moot argument, which is just as it should be, both sides need to get over trying to prove themselves, they cannot. The complete denial of any God is every bit as irrational and illogical on the face of it as is the belief in one.

226 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:54:00pm

re: #225 ausador

Oh come on, does anyone really think that they are going to prove or disprove God to anyone on a webblog?

Add the updings and subtract the downdings.

227 pdc_lgf  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:54:12pm

re: #225 ausador

I think you nailed it. I’d say “I’m sure you nailed it” but someone here might take the bait. Thank you.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:54:36pm

re: #222 Pawn of the Oppressor

They’re aiming to break through that elusive 12% barrier?

Seriously though, they seem to think that excluding anybody who isn’t a fat white Creationist moron with a pro-slavery sticker on his truck is a valid strategy. Good luck with that, fellas…

Mr. Turnipseed thanks you for saving a seat for him, but he’s planning to vote for that LaRouche gentleman this year.

229 albusteve  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:54:40pm

re: #225 ausador

Oh come on, does anyone really think that they are going to prove or disprove God to anyone on a webblog?

Personal faith or the lack thereof should be exactly that, personal.

Science cannot be used to disprove God, God cannot be used to disprove science, there is no straight-line correlation between belief and knowledge. Those that have faith do so because of an inner belief and feelings of connection to something infinitely greater and will not be swayed by any arguments of lack of testable proof. Those that do not have faith, however much they inwardly feel themselves to be correct about the non-existence of God will never be able to prove it, either to themselves or to anyone else.

This is ultimately a moot argument, which is just as it should be, both sides need to get over trying to prove themselves, they cannot. The complete denial of any God is every bit as irrational and illogical on the face of it as is the belief in one.

well then that covers everybody…somehow I think you have it backwards…try rational and logical

230 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 5:57:41pm

re: #225 ausador

Oh come on, does anyone really think that they are going to prove or disprove God to anyone on a webblog?

Personal faith or the lack thereof should be exactly that, personal.

Science cannot be used to disprove God, God cannot be used to disprove science, there is no straight-line correlation between belief and knowledge. Those that have faith do so because of an inner belief and feelings of connection to something infinitely greater and will not be swayed by any arguments of lack of testable proof. Those that do not have faith, however much they inwardly feel themselves to be correct about the non-existence of God will never be able to prove it, either to themselves or to anyone else.

This is ultimately a moot argument, which is just as it should be, both sides need to get over trying to prove themselves, they cannot. The complete denial of any God is every bit as irrational and illogical on the face of it as is the belief in one.

It is a philosophical discussion, infinitely more pleasant than watching Glenn Beck. Do you mind?

231 Plato  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:11:18pm

re: #215 pdc_lgf

Multiple groups with their different viewpoints exist in every time period.

You say one viewpoint wins. My point was that in Judaism, that which was uninterrupted continued uninterrupted as if the other never existed.

We’re close.

:- )

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:15:20pm

I guess I am just like a poor Jew. Just not Jewish?

That work?

233 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:17:24pm

re: #232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I guess I am just like a poor Jew. Just not Jewish?

That work?

You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levi’s bread.

234 mikhailtheplumber  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:26:43pm

re: #219 Spare O’Lake

The Spaghetti Monster - even the flying version - does not address the ultimate question of whether a higher intelligence caused the Big Bang, or whether the very first unicellular bit of life on Earth was created or just happened by chance? I am forced to concede in all honesty that neither science nor religion has the proof of the answers to those questions, and therefore to allow for the possibility.

I’m sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people who use God as an explanation for the existence of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Otherwise, the creator of the universe could well be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
As an addendum, there is a huge logical leap from “science has not yet been able to explain what sparked the Big Bang” to “therefore, God did it”.

235 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:31:04pm

re: #229 albusteve

well then that covers everybody…somehow I think you have it backwards…try rational and logical

Ahh, I have a denier, I imagined I would.

Your rational, logical, and educated brain and personal life experience tells you that all Gods are simply folklore and myths, fine I understand that. However where have you come across scientifically testable and repeatable evidence that proves that there is no God? You have none because such evidence does not exist, therefore your disbelief is based upon your own personal belief that your opinion about how the universe works is correct.

That is called faith when it is applied to the belief in a Gods existence, but I wont use that word about your opinion because I know how much that would discomfort you. Simply put, you may freely base your lack of belief upon your own experiences, but when you try to expand that to explain those of other human beings it becomes simply an anecdotal story, not evidence.

When you insist to others that there is no God and that your disbelief is based on logic and reason you are being dishonest. Not only are you being dishonest with others but with yourself as well. Atheism is not actually a rational position, you cannot disprove God. Agnosticism is a rational position in that you are simply saying that you have no faith in one.

236 Liberal Classic  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 7:08:38pm

re: #219 Spare O’Lake

The Spaghetti Monster - even the flying version - does not address the ultimate question of whether a higher intelligence caused the Big Bang, or whether the very first unicellular bit of life on Earth was created or just happened by chance?

This isn’t the purpose of the FSM. The purpose of the FSM is to demonstrate, through satire, how intelligent design begs the question of the creator.

237 peterb  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 7:11:42pm

After reading this article, I’m tempted to give an interview to my local newspaper and say something like “Hey, I’m not prejudiced. Some of my best friends are stupid Christian politicians.”

238 reine.de.tout  Mon, Oct 19, 2009 7:20:48pm

re: #234 mikhailtheplumber

I’m sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people who use God as an explanation for the existence of the universe and the appearance of life on Earth. Otherwise, the creator of the universe could well be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
As an addendum, there is a huge logical leap from “science has not yet been able to explain what sparked the Big Bang” to “therefore, God did it”.

Spare O’Lake, in the comment you quoted, seemed to me to be trying to explain his “take” on it; he did not appear to me to be trying to prove anything to you.

239 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:05:12am

Even the Pope says that he sees no conflict between believeing in the Bible and accepting the theory of Evolution.

But there is a conflict between Evolution and a literalist, fundamentalist interpretation of the scriptures, and that is what makes up the crux of the Creationism controversy.

240 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:03:28am
241 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:04:11am
242 rwdflynavy  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:17:00am

re: #241 F15Mech

What a lame little boy you are.

243 ubernerd  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 6:39:24am

Ummm…

…as the Spanish say “que sera sera”…or…
…as the Milanese say “Can ca buia al pia no (A barking dog does not bite”…or…
…as the Hindu say (roughly translated) Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?”…or…
…as the Apache say “It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand”…or…
etc…etc…etc…

Seriously folks…can’t we do better than this?

244 XopXproxyX  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:45:46am

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

Is it too much to ask that people actually read a comment fully, in its context?
I was replying to someone stating that the democtatic praty is “downright anti-Semitic in their hostility towards the state[of Israel]”. Not in anyway way defending the subject of this post.


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