Pat Buchanan: White Americans Are Losing

PoliticsOctober 2009 • Views: 2,867

In his latest excrescence at the right wing’s craziest “news” site, Pat “Hitler Wasn’t So Bad” Buchanan says “Traditional” Americans are losing their nation.

And by “traditional,” Buchanan means “white.”

It’s mind-boggling that a disgusting person like Pat Buchanan hasn’t been made a pariah by the right wing. No wonder the American public has no confidence in the GOP.

For previous LGF posts on this white supremacist pundit, here’s an LGF search.

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160 comments

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:00:42am

...

IT WASN'T EVEN OURS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Gah.

wiffersnapper Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:02:09am

I'd rather lose Pat Buchanan.

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:02:16am

The race peddler will do all he can to sell his wares by jumping the current bandwagon of anything.

StillAMarine Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:02:27am

So ... still more crap from the crazies who are screwing up the Republican Party?

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:02:39am

Since we're throwing racial issues around...I posted this in an earlier thread...Geert Wilders to speak at Temple U.

[Link: cbs3.com...]

Pawn of the Oppressor Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:45am

I say we ship those filthy Irish, Chinese, and Polish right back to where they came from!

Wait, what year is it again?

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:51am

re: #1 thedopefishlives

YEAH!!! No French in Canada!!!

Velvet Elvis Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:53am

Tell it to an Indian.

Boyo Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:59am

re: #5 UberNerd

what are your thoughts on Geert Wilders speaking at Temple U?

Baier Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:04:28am

/The purest "traditional" Americans come from Norway.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:05:11am

re: #5 UberNerd

That's the fourth time you've posted that link today. Are you trying to promote Geert Wilders here?

Kragar Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:05:11am

For some reason, I dont think a Nazi Apologist is the person to listen to for the direction the nation should be taking.

StillAMarine Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:04am

re: #10 Baier

No. They came from Siberia, across the land bridge about 10 000 years ago.

jaunte Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:13am

I thought Buchanan was opposed to hyphenated-Americans.

Pawn of the Oppressor Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #12 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

For some reason, I dont think a Nazi Apologist is the person to listen to for the direction the nation should be taking.

Hey, Hitler made the trains run on time.

Granted, they were full of people being taken to murder camps, but why quibble over details?

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:28am

re: #7 UberNerd

I'm sorry, what?

wrenchwench Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07:05am

re: #5 UberNerd

Since we're throwing racial issues around...I posted this in an earlier thread...Geert Wilders to speak at Temple U.

[Link: cbs3.com...]

I was wondering whether you could explain what you meant in this comment from this morning:

243 ubernerd10/20/2009 6:39:24 am PDT
Ummm...
...as the Spanish say "que sera sera"...or...
...as the Milanese say "Can ca buia al pia no (A barking dog does not bite"...or...
...as the Hindu say (roughly translated) Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?"...or...
...as the Apache say "It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand"...or...
etc...etc...etc...

Seriously folks...can't we do better than this?

It was in the thread titled, "South Carolina GOP Chairmen: Jim DeMint is Like a Wealthy Jew".

[deleted] Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07:25am

Kragar Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07:59am

re: #18 MikeySDCA

OT: Are you aware that the Wild Animal Park has free admission for kids this month?

Nope. Too late now, kids are back in school.

lawhawk Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:08am

He's not a pariah because there's no one like WFB to step up and send him packing.

SeaMonkey Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:12am

They should invent a rating scale for how American you are.

Patrick Buchanan: 100
B Hussein Obama: 0

The rest of us are in-between. Where do YOU fall, Citizen? Take the test at your local Party office.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:49am

re: #9 Boyo

Specific to that question, If they want him to speak, it's a free country. I've seen worse speakers be invited to campuses (cough)Columbia (cough).

One of the great things about this country is that we are all free to be total jackasses and to be called on it by others...who usually make jackasses of themselves in the process.

My reason for posting is that I've noticed the trend to lean towards commentary on people such as him, people who been associated with him, and the general overall subject matter that surrounds him. I figured it might be helpful...and I'm holding out for that hat tip.

SixDegrees Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:15am

re: #5 UberNerd

Since we're throwing racial issues around...I posted this in an earlier thread...Geert Wilders to speak at Temple U.

[Link: cbs3.com...]

This is starting to smell like spam.

bosforus Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:28am

"Whites are not only more anxious, but also more alienated. Big majorities of whites say the past year's turmoil has diminished their confidence in government, corporations and the financial industry. ... Asked which institution they trust most to make economic decisions in their interest, a plurality of whites older than 30 pick 'none' – a grim statement."

Oh woe is me and my white skin! Who shall cure me of my alienation? Who, among the 88.52% of the white demographic in my city, can comfort me in this time of misery?

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:29am

re: #11 Charles

Holding out for my Hat Tip, Charles.

I figured it was news worthy. I didn't want to get scooped.

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:37am

In their lifetimes, they have seen their Christian faith purged from schools their taxes paid for, and mocked in movies and on TV.

So in America you aren't free to believe how, where, or what you may? So does that mean the muslims, wiccans, pagans and others get to cry since they haven't even had their faith represented in schools in the first place let alone get a chance to have them 'purged'?

They have seen their factories shuttered in the thousands and their jobs outsourced in the millions to Mexico and China.

Economics, specialization, and free trade are lost on this one. Free trade is a good thing.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:56am

re: #23 SixDegrees

Nope. I don't care for processed meat.

King of the Douche, now you may bow Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:10:51am

re: #24 bosforus

Oh woe is me and my white skin! Who shall cure me of my alienation? Who, among the 88.52% of the white demographic in my city, can comfort me in this time of misery?

See your local bartender. Works for me.

Lee Coller Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:29am

When you said "the right wing's craziest 'news' site" I had to move my mouse over the link to see what you were talking about. There are just too many options.

SixDegrees Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:29am

re: #27 UberNerd

Then stop, please.

Honorary Yooper Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:34am

re: #23 SixDegrees

This is starting to smell like spam.

Starting? It smells like Spam that's been left out in the sun for far too long.

lostlakehiker Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:12:20am

The same concern may be found among African Americans---that it's getting so you don't hardly know who's black anymore, there's so much admixture of white. Among Hispanics, Asians, what have you, there is a fear that assimilation will wash out the distinctive features of race and culture.

It will. Something new is in the works. The new America will be such a crazy quilt of races and persons of no particular ancestry that it will be impossible to categorize people by race. By and by, the rest of the world will look at the blend we form and declare that we constitute a race of our own, Americans.

In the meantime, Pat Buchanan has common cause with Quannell X, Spike Lee, and traditionalists from the various other subcultures. Stop the World, we want to get off. Not gonna happen. There won't be a dominant race. There won't be solid, clear lines between races, or cultures. Intermarriage rates are high and rising. Eugenicists can have a cow, but really, if Darwin was even a little bit right, the best genes will somehow or other float to the top. We might end up with skin color suited to our own insolation, noses suited to our own humidity, body builds suited to our own climate, and so on. Dear me, what a scary prospect.

SixDegrees Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:12:33am

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

Starting? It smells like Spam that's been left out in the sun for far too long.

I may also be detecting a tinge of incipient flounce.

Velvet Elvis Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:12:35am

Progressives are the folks who, in the 1960s, could easily understand that urban riots that took scores of lives and destroyed billions in property were an inevitable reaction to racism, poverty and despair. They could empathize with the rage of campus radicals who burned down the ROTC building and bombed the Pentagon.
The "dirty, immoral war in Vietnam" explains why the "finest generation we have ever produced" is behaving like this, they said. We must deal with the "root causes" of social disorder.

Yet, they cannot comprehend what would motivate Middle America to distrust its government . . .

because they're all a bunch of dirty fucking hippies! Just say it Pat.

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:13:23am

re: #18 MikeySDCA

OT: Are you aware that the Wild Animal Park has free admission for kids this month?

Are they trying to restock the goat enclosures?

Kragar Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:14:01am

re: #25 UberNerd

Holding out for my Hat Tip, Charles.

I figured it was news worthy. I didn't want to get scooped.

Here's a tip. Knock it off, its annoying.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:14:12am

re: #25 UberNerd

Holding out for my Hat Tip, Charles.

I figured it was news worthy. I didn't want to get scooped.

Ok, well, since you apparently haven't paid attention to my previous posts about Wilders, here's a clue: Geert Wilders will get no publicity from me. He is promoting an ugly, un-American point of view, and if you want to see coverage of his latest publicity stunts, I suggest you send your tips to Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer, who are very comfortable with Wilders' fascist opinions.

I don't appreciate seeing it at LGF.

bosforus Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:14:28am

You want a hat tip for a link about Geert Wilders speaking at Temple University (in PA, not AZ) that links to an article about unemployment in Pennsylvania? Good luck with that.

Bagua Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:07am

re: #25 UberNerd

I didn't want to get scooped.

As in "pooper-scooper"?

captdiggs Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:08am

Buchanan has always, always, been a POS.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:21am

re: #37 Charles

Oh boy. I bet that sets off some neurons in his brain.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:30am

OT: Sports Break...

Report: Tom Brady is going to hell

The title says it all.

Yes, Tom Brady is going to hell.

Ian Rapoport of the Boston Herald pointed out to us this rather critical nugget (for Brady at least) earlier in the week. It seems that the Amazing Grace Baptist Church in Canton, North Carolina has usurped the duties of St. Peter and declared Brady's eternal damnation.

"Tom Brady has an unwed child, but it's okay because he wins Super Bowls," the church said on its web site. "Tom Brady is teaching us to have sex outside of marriage, to commit fornication, don't marry and do the right thing, don't take responsibility for your actions, have a good time no matter who you hurt in this world, go from sex partner to sex partner, and it's okay because of who I am. How many of you dad's [sic] cheer on Tom in the Super Bowl while your kids are watching?"

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:38am

Oh, I am sure Hannity will be all over this..and promote it...with an interview with Patty cakes himself...

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:55am

Zombie posted a whitewash report on the San Fran Tea Party. Despite all the 9-11 truth signs among the Tea Partiers zombie claims that they weren'y really part of the group. Lame try.

That's Glenn Beck to you Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:17:05am

Charles -

When the end times come I want a hat tip. OK?

zelnaga Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:17:19am

Formed in March, they are ex-military and police who repledge themselves to defend the Constitution, even if it means disobeying orders. If the U.S. government ordered law enforcement agencies to violate Second Amendment rights by disarming the people, Oath Keepers will not obey.

Has Obama, as President, done anything that would suggest he's trying to disarm people? This article suggests he hasn't. As such, Oath Keepers seems about as necessary as Kitten Savers. You know - the organization that'll defy any order to kill kittens. Because such orders are sooo likely to be given.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:17:31am

re: #45 That's Glenn Beck to you

Charles -

When the end times come I want a hat tip. OK?

My mom says 2012...really.

Cato the Elder Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:28am

I live in a very "traditional" part of the country.

For all that, Pat would be surprised at just how nontraditional it has become. And I'm not just talkin' about people with high melanin counts.

Your small town today ain't what it was in the 1950s, praises be.

duck of peace Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:32am

Pat is whats wrong with the Republican party. This guy is a wack-tard and mainstream Republicans treat him like royalty. He posts crap like that and we're supposed to treat it like an intellectual discussion? No thanks. There is a lot of idiocy on the Dem side, but thats no excuse for letting Pat in the door.

That's Glenn Beck to you Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:39am

re: #47 NJDhockeyfan

My mom says 2012...really.

She should buy Mayan Gold Futures.

Four More Tears Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:01am

"How I Met Your Mother" had an episode on, let's just say ugly-Americanism last night.

SeaMonkey Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:30am

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

If it happens soon that will help the Jets.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:49am

re: #30 SixDegrees

First posting of it was an incorrect link, which was pointed out by Bosforus. It was reposted with the correct link.

That thread looked like it was petering out, so I posted here as well, to get the info out. The objective was to be helpful, not spammy.

I'll remember in the future to post a relavent link only once and in only one thread. Consider my hand slapped.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:21:01am

re: #52 SeaMonkey

If it happens soon that will help the Jets.

Judging by the game highlights from Sunday, it was a cold day in Hell.

dugmartsch Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:21:08am

re: #53 UberNerd

How about not just not being a jerk about it? That would help.

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:21:28am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Zombie posted a whitewash report on the San Fran Tea Party. Despite all the 9-11 truth signs among the Tea Partiers zombie claims that they weren'y really part of the group. Lame try.

Here's why the 9-11 Truthers were at the Tea Party...
California GOP slaps San Mateo tea party organizers

San Francisco Tea Party for 9/11 Truth

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:22:59am

re: #37 Charles

Sorry, Charles. The intention was not to promote him, but to point out the lack of intelligent choices of speakers at Arizona.

I'll remember not to mention him again.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:08am

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

SeaMonkey Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:18am

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

Judging by the game highlights from Sunday, it was a cold day in Hell.

brrr

SixDegrees Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:52am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Here's why the 9-11 Truthers were at the Tea Party...
California GOP slaps San Mateo tea party organizers

San Francisco Tea Party for 9/11 Truth

A faint glimmer of enlightenment emanates from the California GOP.

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:24:50am

re: #58 Charles

Nice.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:25:09am

re: #55 dugmartsch

Maybe I'm conveying something unintentionally...what was jerky about explaining my actions when being accused of spamming?

Please note that I'm not trying to be confrontational. Honestly asking what I did to be a "jerk."

The Sanity Inspector Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:25:12am

It’s mind-boggling that a disgusting person like Pat Buchanan hasn’t been made a pariah by the right wing.

But, like lawhawk said upthread, he was.

The late William F. Buckley Jr. expelled Buchanan from the pages of the National Review many years ago for his crudely anti-Semitic rants, which included a very unattractive tinge of admiration for Hitler.

Of course NR isn't the whole right wing. But it is certainly a downhill slide from there to the august pages of WND.

Velvet Elvis Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:25:22am

re: #46 zelnaga

Has Obama, as President, done anything that would suggest he's trying to disarm people? This article suggests he hasn't. As such, Oath Keepers seems about as necessary as Kitten Savers. You know - the organization that'll defy any order to kill kittens. Because such orders are sooo likely to be given.

Gun control has pretty much been dropped from the Democratic Party platform. It's a big part of what's helped us get blue dogs elected in the south and mountain states.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #42 NJDhockeyfan

Well. At least it's against a white guy.

The Sanity Inspector Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:26:16am

re: #45 That's Glenn Beck to you

Charles -

When the end times come I want a hat tip. OK?

I got two firsties years ago, before they were outlawed. I'll treasure them forever.

Dreader1962 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:26:22am

I read that article - what struck me was the lack of content; it appears to just be something to grab a headline at Drudge.

More and more I'm getting disgusted with Drudge, and his tendency to drive the focus of news. I blame the networks as well, because they are responding to him. Actually, he's getting very lazy and seems to be just focusing on how to twist a headline and photo to the detriment of Obama.

bosforus Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:26:47am

re: #57 UberNerd

Temple University is in Pennsylvania.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:26:58am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

Two vs. the world. I'll bet on the two.

Kragar Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:27:00am

re: #66 The Sanity Inspector

I got two firsties years ago, before they were outlawed. I'll treasure them forever.

Sinner.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:27:04am

re: #35 CyanSnowHawk

That ding was just in case that was a "Jurassic Park" joke.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:27:43am

re: #68 bosforus

Thanks for the correction.

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:09am

re: #63 The Sanity Inspector

It’s mind-boggling that a disgusting person like Pat Buchanan hasn’t been made a pariah by the right wing.

But, like lawhawk said upthread, he was.

Of course NR isn't the whole right wing. But it is certainly a downhill slide from there to the august pages of WND.

Sorry, but whatever stand Buckley took has long since been erased. Buchanan's articles are published at every major conservative news site, he has a permanent slot on MSNBC, and is a frequent guest on Fox News, where Sean Hannity refers to him as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

He is definitely NOT any kind of pariah.

Oh no...Sand People! Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:10am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

Why that POS RINO!! Crucify him!
///

Sharmuta Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:56am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

That's really wonderful.

reine.de.tout Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:29:23am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

very nice!

Honorary Yooper Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:31:14am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

People will wake up. It will take time and effort, but they can wake up.
One can only create cracks in the wall of stupidity by hitting it over and over again with a 20 pound sledgehammer. Eventually it may even crumble.

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:11am

re: #73 Charles

Buchanan's... is a frequent guest on Fox News, where Sean Hannity refers to him as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

Jeebus, is he introduced like that on Hannity's radio show? Because if I had it on and he was introduced as "the great..." I think I would floor the gas and aim for the nearest tree or bridge abutment.

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:16am

re: #39 Bagua
Hehehehe

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:30am

re: #58 Charles

Ding whore.
/

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:36:43am

Unfortunately, AJ Strata is already considered a RINO traitor by a lot of wingnut blogs, so all that will happen is that they'll now turn their hatred toward him as well.

StillAMarine Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:37:01am

Formed in March, they are ex-military and police who repledge themselves to defend the Constitution, even if it means disobeying orders. If the U.S. government ordered law enforcement agencies to violate Second Amendment rights by disarming the people, Oath Keepers will not obey.

So they say. But all members of the Armed Forces of the United States take an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States and to obey the LAWFUL orders from the Commander-in-Chief and his designates. In August of 1974 a short while before former President Nixon resigned, he attempted to place the U.S. military on ready alert. The Generals, seeing this as threatening to the Constitution, refused the order.
We do not need the Oath Keepers to protect us from our elected government and our Armed Forces. We are well protected enough.

Ojoe Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:37:25am

Speak for yourself Mr. Buchanan, you probably don't get out in the sun very much.

As for me, I'm not white anymore, I'm "Peach."

S'latch Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:38:27am

It is disturbing that in his discussion of legitimate grievances of "Traditional Americans" Pat Buchanan cites a survey of "whites." Obviously, you don't have to be white to be concerned about government waste, crony-capitalism, taxation, illegal immigration, etc. It does suggest that Pat Buchanan thinks all traditional Americans are white.

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:38:57am

Buchanan has been a crank and a fraud and a bigot for years now. To hell with Buchanan, already!

He's not in any position of power, and so his loathsome prejudices lack the ability to do much more than to harm those who share or act upon them.

This kinda thing, however, is distressing:
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]
"KINSTON, N.C. %P% Voters in this small city decided overwhelmingly last year to do away with the party affiliation of candidates in local elections, but the Obama administration recently overruled the electorate and decided that equal rights for black voters cannot be achieved without the Democratic Party.

The Justice Department's ruling, which affects races for City Council and mayor, went so far as to say partisan elections are needed so that black voters can elect their "candidates of choice" - identified by the department as those who are Democrats and almost exclusively black.

The department ruled that white voters in Kinston will vote for blacks only if they are Democrats and that therefore the city cannot get rid of party affiliations for local elections because that would violate black voters' right to elect the candidates they want."

This, on top of the New Black Panther party business, suggests an eccentric understanding of the electoral process in the Justice Department. This isn't the nonsensical ravings of a neo-coughlinite - this is the Justice Department, people!
These morons have the power to inflict their stupidity on others.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:39:02am

re: #83 Ojoe

I remember peach colored crayons that were actually called "flesh". They changed it to peach.

Yep. Crayons were racist.

Actually, they were...

Honorary Yooper Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:39:39am

re: #81 Charles

Unfortunately, AJ Strata is already considered a RINO traitor by a lot of wingnut blogs, so all that will happen is that they'll now turn their hatred toward him as well.

Don't get too down. It's one more that has seen the light than there was before. The wingnuts will do what they will do. The goal is to get the independents and moderates to see what the wingnuts are all about.

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:39:42am

re: #82 StillAMarine

Formed in March, they are ex-military and police who repledge themselves to defend the Constitution, even if it means disobeying orders.

Stop that, you are hurting my brain!!

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:40:20am

re: #58 Charles

A crack in the wall of stupidity:

The Strata-Sphere » I Stand With Charles Johnson, And In Total Opposition To Robert Stacy McCain

There are quite a number of blogs in his blog roll that will not be too happy with this.

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:40:50am

re: #85 Guanxi88

Voters in this small city decided overwhelmingly last year to do away with the party affiliation of candidates in local elections, but the Obama administration recently overruled the electorate and decided that equal rights for black voters cannot be achieved without the Democratic Party.

They are kidding, right?

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:41:18am

re: #85 Guanxi88

Wait. Let me read that again. WTF?

idioma Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:41:41am

Maybe it's just "old white men" that are losing. I'm okay with that, since I haven't saved enough money to be a Republican yet.

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:42:10am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

They are kidding, right?

Well, that's what the report reads.

here's the money quote:

"Others noted the absurdity of partisan elections since Kinston is essentially a one-party city anyway; no one among more than a half-dozen city officials and local residents was able to recall a Republican winning office here. "

Damn that GOP!

Killgore Trout Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:42:25am

part1Sky news Adam Bolton Nick Griffin live 18th October 2009

Youtube Video

part2

Youtube Video

Baier Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:43:00am

re: #92 idioma

Maybe it's just "old white men" that are losing. I'm okay with that, since I haven't saved enough money to be a Republican yet.

You can't be a Democrat either, because they don't save money, they just take it from other people.

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:43:43am

And here's Ms. King, the same one who was mixed up in the New Black panther polling place nonsense:

In a letter dated Aug. 17, the city received the Justice Department's answer: Elections must remain partisan because the change's "effect will be strictly racial."

"Removing the partisan cue in municipal elections will, in all likelihood, eliminate the single factor that allows black candidates to be elected to office," Loretta King, who at the time was the acting head of the Justice Department's civil rights division, wrote in a letter to the city.

Ms. King wrote that voters in Kinston vote more along racial than party lines and without the potential for voting a straight Democratic ticket, "the limited remaining support from white voters for a black Democratic candidate will diminish even more."

Ms. King is the same official who put a stop to the New Black Panther Party case. In that case, the Justice Department filed a civil complaint in Philadelphia after two members of the black revolutionary group dressed in quasi-military garb stood outside a polling place on election last year and purportedly intimidated voters with racial insults, slurs and a nightstick.

CyanSnowHawk Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44:12am

re: #73 Charles

Sorry, but whatever stand Buckley took has long since been erased. Buchanan's articles are published at every major conservative news site, he has a permanent slot on MSNBC, and is a frequent guest on Fox News, where Sean Hannity refers to him as "the ~~great~~ racist, anti-semitic, Hitler apologizing, MSNBC political commentator Patrick J. Buchanan."

He is definitely NOT any kind of pariah.

Fixed that for Hannity.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #93 Guanxi88

The racial makeup of the city was 35.27% White, 62.64% African American.

Good luck, GOP.

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44:45am

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

They are kidding, right?

Here's the letter on the DOJ website

100

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:38am

re: #98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Good luck, GOP.

Article indicates that locals cannot recall a republican winning office in the town.

101

Ray in TX Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:40am

There is one thing I like about Buchanan.. he is principled and consistent in his views. I respect that even though I disagree with about 90% of those views. This is America, though, and he has a right to them. I'm just glad that he is open about where he stands rather than sticking his finger up to see which way the winds are blowing on any given day.

He was one of the first Republicans to leave the reservation with regards to the Iraq war (because he is a protectionist), and was vilified by the Right for it.

He is also living proof that racism is alive and well in America.

102

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:46:56am

re: #85 Guanxi88

You cannot believe the Washington Times. I suggest you look into this further before freaking out. The Washington Times is known to lie and distort the facts in articles about issues like this one -- and there's a reason for it. This is the newspaper where Robert Stacy McCain worked for years, and where there are numerous connections to white supremacist ideology.

103

Nadnerb Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:47:50am

After reading the shockingly reactionary, racist and lunatic postings of RS McCain, I have to lump ol' Pat in the same heap as him. Both are pointlessly reinterpreting our past to the end of forever marginalizing conservatives. They, of course don't see this.

104

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:48:59am

re: #46 zelnaga

Has Obama, as President, done anything that would suggest he's trying to disarm people? This article suggests he hasn't. As such, Oath Keepers seems about as necessary as Kitten Savers. You know - the organization that'll defy any order to kill kittens. Because such orders are sooo likely to be given.

Just in case, I hereby take an oath that I will defy any unlawful orders to kill kittens. Unless the kittens are zombie kittens and a threat to the nation.

I also will defy Barack Obama if he tries to get me to kick dogs or be rude to little old ladies.

105

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:49:27am

re: #102 Charles

You cannot believe the Washington Times. I suggest you look into this further before freaking out. The Washington Times is known to lie and distort the facts in articles about issues like this one. -- and there's a reason for it. This is the newspaper where Robert Stacy McCain worked for years, and where there are numerous connections to white supremacist ideology.

Thought his colleagues at the Times were the ones who outed him & booted him

Secondly, another lizard was kind enough to dig out the letter from Ms. King. The thing looks real, unless maybe the Washington Times have hacked into the DOJ's site.

Look, no one defend Buchana but those who share his loathsome racial ideology and prejudices, but he does not have the pwer to put his prejudices into action. DOJ does, and have done so.

106

war_eagle Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:49:57am

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Here's a Guardian article that states the membership roles of the BNP are going to be released on a web site tomorrow.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

107

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:50:24am

re: #102 Charles

You cannot believe the Washington Times. I suggest you look into this further before freaking out. The Washington Times is known to lie and distort the facts in articles about issues like this one. -- and there's a reason for it. This is the newspaper where Robert Stacy McCain worked for years, and where there are numerous connections to white supremacist ideology.

Charles, check out the Department of Justice letter concerning this, dated August 17, 2009. I could have missed something, certainly, but there is an awful lot of things in that letter that would make someone say "What the hell?"

108

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:51:17am

re: #99 SteveC

Here's the letter on the DOJ website

The DOJ seems to be obsessed with race in that report.

Black voters have had limited success in electing candidates of choice during recent municipal elections. The success that they have achieved has resulted from cohesive support for candidates during the Democratic primary (where black voters represent a larger percentage of the electorate), combined with crossover voting by whites in the general election. It is the partisan makeup of the general electorate that results in enough white cross-over to allow the black community to elect a candidate of choice.

109

watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:54:59am

That column is a weird mixture of Paleo-Con revisionism and So-Con fear mongering, of course it also hits a few false points both hold to be true along the way. Crime is up? Not according to the FBI, and neither is drug use. He seems to be stuck on campaigning against the 70s, wake up Pat, things have changed a bit since then.

110

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:55:30am

re: #107 SteveC

Charles, check out the Department of Justice letter concerning this, dated August 17, 2009. I could have missed something, certainly, but there is an awful lot of things in that letter that would make someone say "What the hell?"

But if the Washington Times took notice of the same things, then I suppose maybe they aren't there?

111

UberNerd Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:56:39am

re: #17 wrenchwench

My point was that I think it was a misguided and poorly executed attempt to attribute a saying to a group.

In poor taste? Oh yeah!
Was it racially motivated? I seriously doubt it.

If I want a good cigar, I want one made by Cuban...in Cuba. If I want a great sports car, I'll go to the italians. If I want to have my backside kicked while trying to invade another country with four of my friends, I'll go see the Israeli's. These are positive attributes sterotyped to certain groups.

I think that's what DeMint was going for when he made the comment...trying to attribute a good piece of wisdom.

He failed in a big way, but I'm not going to outright label him anti-semitic just yet. It does, however, not do well for the GOP as a whole.

Which is surprising, considering how many blatantly anti-semitic, racist, and other-wise distasteful screeds come out of the Democrat party.

112

webevintage Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:57:44am

Oh for heaven's sake i am just sick to DEATH of white dudes whining.

Shut up Pat, no one is listening anymore...we've all moved on into the 21st Century.
I'm sorry that guys like you are no longer Masters of the Universe and have to allow us women and blacks and hispanics and gays and the poor a piece of the pie.
Jesus, get over it already and SHUT. UP.
There is no such thing as "Traditional" Americans.
They. Do. Not. Exist.

113

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:58:25am

re: #112 webevintage

There is no such thing as "Traditional" Americans.
They. Do. Not. Exist.

What about the Amish and Mennonites?
//

114

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:58:49am

re: #110 Guanxi88

But if the Washington Times took notice of the same things, then I suppose maybe they aren't there?

The only thing that I am sure of anymore is that I really want to draw a large circle on a sheet of paper.

For relief of stress:
1) Draw a large circle on a sheet of paper
2) Place paper on the desk in front of you
3) Pound forehead into circle
4) Repeat as needed

115

Charles Johnson Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #108 NJDhockeyfan

Have you considered that there might be good reasons to be concerned about black voters being disenfranchised in North Carolina?

116

idioma Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:00:25am

re: #95 Baier

You can't be a Democrat either, because they don't save money, they just take it from other people.

And Republicans don't? Who was in office for the last eight years? I don't recall this recession being precursory to a shrinking government with historically low spending.

Your non-sequitur argument made me laugh so I'll upding you.

117

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:00:59am

re: #115 Charles

Have you considered that there might be good reasons to be concerned about black voters being disenfranchised in North Carolina?

In a majority-black, one-party town? Why, again, is it necessary to ensure that party affiliations appear on the ballot when the electorate don't want it?

118

NJDhockeyfan Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:02:58am

re: #115 Charles

Have you considered that there might be good reasons to be concerned about black voters being disenfranchised in North Carolina?

You may be right but I haven't read anything about that.

119

DaddyG Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:03:01am

re: #115 Charles Georgia is still under DOJ rules for past issues with voters. I don't know if NC is in a similar place. This does make it very difficult to address legitimate issues of Identification where people are registering to vote illegaly. The sins of the past and the crimes of a few today are really screwing it up for everyone regardless of race.

120

subsailor68 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:04:33am

re: #112 webevintage

Oh for heaven's sake i am just sick to DEATH of white dudes whining.

Shut up Pat, no one is listening anymore...we've all moved on into the 21st Century.
I'm sorry that guys like you are no longer Masters of the Universe and have to allow us women and blacks and hispanics and gays and the poor a piece of the pie.
Jesus, get over it already and SHUT. UP.
There is no such thing as "Traditional" Americans.
They. Do. Not. Exist.

Sigh, as an eternal optimist, I'd like to think there's still a group of "Traditional"Americans - those who hold dear the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Emancipation Proclamation, and all the other documents that define our country.

But, my idea of a group of "Traditional Americans" includes - in addition to white males - women, blacks, hispanics, asians, gays, both the rich and the poor, and any other human being who cherishes the idea of America, and - while accepting our faults - holds true to what we can become.

121

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:05:07am

re: #117 Guanxi88

In a majority-black, one-party town?

A town where the majority doesn't vote?

From the DOJ letter:

The American Community Survey for 2005-2007 estimates the total population to be 22,649, of whom 14,967 (66.6%) are African-American. As of October 31, 2008, the city has 14,799 registered voters, of whom 9,556 (64.6%) are African-American.
Although black persons comprise a majority of the city's registered voters, in three of the past four general municipal elections, African Americans comprised a minority of the electorate on election day; in the fourth , they may have been a slight majority.

122

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:08:08am

re: #115 Charles

Have you considered that there might be good reasons to be concerned about black voters being disenfranchised in North Carolina?

Here's the take-away lesson from this little incident:

1) Appearances to the contrary notwithstanding, Ms King of the DOJ is not, in fact, attempting to use federal intervention on behalf of the only operating political party in the town in question;

2) Ms. King is sufficiently justified in her assessment of the racism and bigotry inherent in the minority population (white) in this town that nothing less than branding all candidates with her approved affiliation will ensure that the voting rights of the majority black population are not diluted;

3) The New Black Panther Party's little fiasco at the polling place in Philly, complete with clubs, uniforms, and threats against voters, was not an incident of intimidation or an attempt to influence voter behavior. However, removing the party labels from candidates will almost certainly have this effect.

4) If the Washington Times publishes it, it's not to be trusted, even when we find the DOJ letter from which the bulk of the article is sourced.

123

Decatur Deb Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:08:15am

re: #113 Guanxi88

What about the Amish and Mennonites?
//

You'd have to ask them, but they seem to strive to not be "traditional"
Americans, viz: firearms, violent military service.

124

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:09:10am

re: #121 SteveC

They're the majority of registered voters. What's the point? Maybe they don't vote in large numbers because there's not much reason for them to do so. Single-party town and all.

125

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:10:25am

re: #121 SteveC

I haven't seen anything in Ms. king's letter to suggest they were being blocked or prevented from voting.

126

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:12:59am

re: #125 Guanxi88

I haven't seen anything in Ms. king's letter to suggest they were being blocked or prevented from voting.

Neither did I. The only logical conclusion is that they just... weren't... interested. :(

127

jayzee Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:13:33am

He's loved by the left and the paleocon right. I don't get it.

128

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:13:50am

re: #126 SteveC

Neither did I. The only logical conclusion is that they just... weren't... interested. :(

And I pushed the submit button before I added

That's sad.

129

Boyo Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:15:02am

re: #127 jayzee

He's loved by the left and the paleocon right. I don't get it.

loved by the left??

130

Ray in TX Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:16:21am

re: #127 jayzee

He's loved by the left and the paleocon right. I don't get it.

He was against the Iraq war before any other prominent Republican. That made him a very valuable talking point for the left.

131

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:16:38am

What exactly was objectionable in my assessment of the status quo at # 122?

I'm not the one who decided to over-rule the electorate and decide that party affiliation is the key to overcoming white bigotry in this town, whose black population's voting rights can best and only be secured by the prominent "D" next to the name of candidates in a single-party town.

I'm not the one who suggests that uniforms and nightsticks at a polling place on election do not constitute voter intimidation.

I'm not the Washington Time - I didn't hire RSM, and, so far as I know, he had nothing to do with this article.

132

The Sanity Inspector Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #73 Charles

Sorry, but whatever stand Buckley took has long since been erased. Buchanan's articles are published at every major conservative news site, he has a permanent slot on MSNBC, and is a frequent guest on Fox News, where Sean Hannity refers to him as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

He is definitely NOT any kind of pariah.

Yes, I guess that's true. Wonder why MSNBC has him on?

133

SteveC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:19:47am

Lunch break is over (was over quite a while ago!!) So I'm outta here. Everyone have a great day!

134

jayzee Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:22:05am

re: #129 Boyo

Hell yes. He's like Ron Paul to them-A conservative that trashes the "neocon" movement of Bush. His foreign policies are more akin to those of Carter than any GOP president. Re Paul and Buchanan, I understand why the left loves them actually a lot more than I understand why the right has become enamored with these two fools.

135

The Sanity Inspector Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #130 Ray in TX

He was against the Iraq war before any other prominent Republican. That made him a very valuable talking point for the left.

He's also anti-free trade, which makes him attractive to the Left, when they from time to time remember that they are supposed to be for the workers.

136

allegro Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:29:57am

re: #6 Pawn of the Oppressor

I say we ship those filthy Irish, Chinese, and Polish right back to where they came from!

Oh, send me! send me! I hear Ireland is lovely this time of year. ;)

137

sffilk Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:36:01am

re: #136 allegro

Oh, send me! send me! I hear Ireland is lovely this time of year. ;)

It is. I've been there at Thanksgiving time.

138

spoosmith Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:36:28am

re: #49 duck of peace

I heard David Frum lamenting about the failure of the GOP to attract educated voters shortly after the election. He must be crying a river by now.

139

sakublock Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:37:10am

Problem with Buchanan is that the left likes him. MSNBC will use him as a "conservative" etc. Probably its because they may agree with his anti Israel stance or he makes conservatives look bad or both.

140

dugmartsch Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:41:25am

re: #135 The Sanity Inspector

He's also anti-free trade, which makes him attractive to the Left, when they from time to time remember that they are supposed to be for the workers.

He's a protectionist faux populist. A style that has definitely fallen out of favor on the mainstream left, as the left's most prominent economic voice is free trader Paul Krugman. You'll notice John Edwards lost the nomination, and wasn't a particularly serious contender for most of the primary. And his platform espoused a very generous public health care plan, with his protectionist instincts mostly panned. Most "for the worker' policies that come from the left are centered around tax credits and social programs (like EITC), not protectionism.

I know of no left leaning person who even considers Pat Buchanan a valuable source of information. I certainly don't, and I highly doubt anyone to the left of center on LGF does either.

141

DaddyG Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:45:30am

re: #138 spoosmith Party affiliation and education levels are pretty even between the major parties. The data I could find was from 2003:

Pew report

The differences are among some college and college grads affiliation with Republicans is higher.

Interestingly among those who did not complete HS or completed post graduate work affiliation is higher with Democrats

142

webevintage Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:02:17pm

re: #139 sakublock

Problem with Buchanan is that the left likes him. MSNBC will use him as a "conservative" etc. Probably its because they may agree with his anti Israel stance or he makes conservatives look bad or both.

I don't.
The moment I see him on MSNBC I change the channel.
I don't know if they can tell, but it sure makes me feel better.

143

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:06:44pm

re: #13 StillAMarine

No. They came from Siberia, across the land bridge about 10 000 years ago.

Better than my family. We don't seem to go back farther than 1600 or so.

144

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:09:21pm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

You'd have to ask them, but they seem to strive to not be "traditional"
Americans, viz: firearms, violent military service.

Just as American as being armed to the teeth, just a different cultural strain. An American doesn't look like any one thing, and, this is the part Pat doesn't get, NEVER HAS.

145

_RememberTonyC Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:09:59pm

i don't toss the adjective "nazi" around very frequently. but pat buchanan is a nazi ...

146

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:18:42pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

Just as American as being armed to the teeth, just a different cultural strain. An American doesn't look like any one thing, and, this is the part Pat doesn't get, NEVER HAS.

Yep, a big squabbling mess o' folk, all marrying each other. Secret of our success.

147

Yashmak Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:19:02pm

I think Pat has been a pariah in the minds of many (if not most) conservatives for quite a while now. His rants have become progressively more insane as he has struggled to remain relevant.

As some have noted above, I suspect that the only reason his name keeps popping up in the MSM, is that he's useful as a demonstration of insane conservatives to those in the media who would like to paint us all in that light.

148

Blizard Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #89 CyanSnowHawk

There are quite a number of blogs in his blog roll that will not be too happy with this.

Wow, brutally honest. He just had his first flouncer, too.

149

Land Shark Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:24:56pm

re: #145 _RememberTonyC

i don't toss the adjective "nazi" around very frequently. but pat buchanan is a nazi ...

Sadly, it's very appropriate in Pat's case. I bet he has a Hitler blow up doll he snuggles up to every night.

150

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:29:24pm

re: #149 Land Shark

Sadly, it's very appropriate in Pat's case. I bet he has a Hitler blow up doll he snuggles up to every night.

That's demeaning and insulting to every last pervert out there.

151

dwells38 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:40:23pm

What's stranger is he seems to have lifetime employment at a network which is surely the most legitimate name in news to many here.

But I agree he tends to romanticize this supposed time when America was so wonderful that blacks couldn't drink out of a public fountain or ride in a bus or be a professional in a lot of places.

The tortured nazi apologetics are just nuts.

152

Land Shark Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #150 Guanxi88

That's demeaning and insulting to every last pervert out there.

No way. I happen to know my share of perverts and not one of them uses a Hitler doll. :-)

153

Guanxi88 Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:49:32pm

re: #152 Land Shark

No way. I happen to know my share of perverts and not one of them uses a Hitler doll. :-)

But you suggested that the community of pneumato-philes might include such a one as he. Hell, even the Furries would be ashamed to be associated with the guy.

154

Land Shark Tue, Oct 20, 2009 12:58:06pm

re: #153 Guanxi88

Oh shit, now I'm gonna have the pneumatic-phalic community after me? Great...

155

gregb Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:29:07pm

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

Starting? It smells like Spam that's been left out in the sun for far too long.

I'm laughing. A surfing trip down to Cabo where we were stranded for several days on the east coast led to this recipe. Spam con cerveza.

Unfortunately my ex-girlfriend stole my recipe and claimed it as her own on NPR. One more reason to hate her.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

156

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:30:32pm

re: #153 Guanxi88

But you suggested that the community of pneumato-philes might include such a one as he. Hell, even the Furries would be ashamed to be associated with the guy.

Hey! Some of us are contributing members of society!

157

pdc_lgf Tue, Oct 20, 2009 2:34:47pm

re: #146 Guanxi88

"America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right. "

So if you marry someone of the appropriate background, are your children granted half a share? Is there an algorithm for such things?

I notice how PB weaves the "white" thing into the mix, along with the "traditional values." My guess is that he's written essentially the same column a couple of hundred times. There most likely is a way to write software to do such things.

158

Yashmak Tue, Oct 20, 2009 3:54:40pm

re: #157 pdc_lgf

My guess is that he's written essentially the same column a couple of hundred times. There most likely is a way to write software to do such things.

I'd be willing to bet PB doesn't know about it, if there is :)

159

suchislife Tue, Oct 20, 2009 4:45:01pm

re: #147 Yashmak

please reread this comment by Charles right above yours:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

He says:
"Buchanan's articles are published at every major conservative news site, he has a permanent slot on MSNBC, and is a frequent guest on Fox News, where Sean Hannity refers to him as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

He is definitely NOT any kind of pariah."

Wake up to reality.

160

[deleted] Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:08:12am

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