Wired Takes on the Anti-Vaxers

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Wired’s Amy Wallace has an excellent piece on the rise of the idiotic and perilous anti-vaccine “movement:” An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All.

Wired also identifies some of the most prominent idiots promoting this bad craziness (but somehow they missed Bill Maher): The Misinformants: Prominent Voices in the Anti-Vaccine Crusade.

Another article by Erin Biba debunks three of the major fears about the H1N1 flu shot.

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267 comments
1 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:33:22am

I have never gotten a flu shot of any kind, but if I had kids or a grandma, I would drag them there and hold them down if necessary. Having said that, it is taking time to get the shots here. Students in my county have to wait another 4-5 weeks. Other counties around me start in a week or so.

2 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:33:54am

My kids are getting their shots at school soon.

3 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:37:15am

10% of my son’s school was out on Monday. Tests coming back indicate it’s H1N1. We think my son may have had it, but so far it looks like he came through unscathed. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the rest of the family.

4 ohpleaseno  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:37:48am

Arguing with an anit-vaxer is probably the most braindead conversation you could possibley have.

5 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:38:28am

re: #3 PT Barnum

10% of my son’s school was out on Monday. Tests coming back indicate it’s H1N1. We think my son may have had it, but so far it looks like he came through unscathed. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the rest of the family.

cbs2chicago.com

6 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:42:02am

re: #3 PT Barnum

10% of my son’s school was out on Monday. Tests coming back indicate it’s H1N1. We think my son may have had it, but so far it looks like he came through unscathed. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the rest of the family.

It made a run through the schools here about a month ago, with a high rate of absence as you indicated. My daughter’s school also had a run of mono at the same time. Been a rough year, thus far.

7 Crashnburn  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:43:46am

How dare anyone question that great vaccine authority Jenny McCarthy, MD, FACS, PhD, ETC.! After countless hours in her lab she was able to prove her vaccine - damage theories with the peer review necessary to… Wait, no lab? no proof, no peer review? Well, she is pretty hot, so lets listen to her!

8 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:44:26am

*Yawn*
Goodmorning !
…Here in our little slice of heaven ,60% of the Flu cases are
of the Porky variety!
The schools are half empty…Or half full?
I’m sure that a small % of sick students are actually on the
mountian (Deer Season)!

9 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:45:30am

re: #4 ohpleaseno

And …there’s no vac… fo that?
/

10 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:46:02am

Gutfeld did a great bit on Bill Maher’s anti-vax stance on Red Eye last night. Maher actually made Alec Baldwin look rational!

11 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:46:26am

re: #8 reloadingisnotahobby

My high school in Pennsylvania took a week off during deer season because previously there were many ‘sick’ students during that time. We even had a ‘Big Buck’ contest every year.

12 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:46:43am

As bad as it can be, the flu is the least of my worries.

Just imagine smallpox, tuberculosis or other crippling and deadly diseases getting a foothold in our country again.

I am very concerned that between illegal immigrants who are afraid to use public health resources and the unimmunized children of anti-vaxers we face potential epidemics of diseases that we had under control in our country.

13 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:48:15am

re: #12 DaddyG

Zactly!
…And it’s not like Polio is so bad ..right?/
Idiots!

14 [deleted]  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:48:16am
15 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:48:31am

re: #8 reloadingisnotahobby

*Yawn*
Goodmorning !
…Here in our little slice of heaven ,60% of the Flu cases are
of the Porky variety!
The schools are half empty…Or half full?
I’m sure that a small % of sick students are actually on the
mountian (Deer Season)!


From one of the links in Charles’ post:


What is certain is that deaths from H1N1 infection are on the rise. According to the CDC, almost all diagnosed influenza cases in the US so far this year are from H1N1. So far, more than 40,000 confirmed and probable cases have been identified, 5,011 people have been hospitalized, and 302 people have died. The flu has become so widespread that the CDC has stopped counting individual cases.
16 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:49:17am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

You wouldn’t be in Bucks County would ya?
Been all over the Quakertown area …Loved it!

17 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:49:52am

re: #14 funky chicken

check out this comment to the third article:

OMG

It’s going to mutate and wipe out 95% of the world’s population, but the vaccine is too dangerous.

How do these people get out of bed in the morning?

Simple. They fall out.

18 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:51:01am

re: #14 funky chicken

check out this comment to the third article:


OMG

It’s going to mutate and wipe out 95% of the world’s population, but the vaccine is too dangerous.

Someone’s been reading too much Stephen King.

19 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:51:07am
Consider: In certain parts of the US, vaccination rates have dropped so low that occurrences of some children’s diseases are approaching pre-vaccine levels for the first time ever. And the number of people who choose not to vaccinate their children (so-called philosophical exemptions are available in about 20 states, including Pennsylvania, Texas, and much of the West) continues to rise. In states where such opting out is allowed, 2.6 percent of parents did so last year, up from 1 percent in 1991, according to the CDC. In some communities, like California’s affluent Marin County, just north of San Francisco, non-vaccination rates are approaching 6 percent (counterintuitively, higher rates of non-vaccination often correspond with higher levels of education and wealth).

I guess this goes to show that too much of a good thing, isn’t.

20 Spider mensch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:51:26am

I’ve said it before, but I suppose it bears repeating for any anti vax who may be reading, go take walk thru a turn of the century cemetery. read the ages on the tombstones. all those young children didn’t die of falling off of ice wagons. we’ve come along way in the fight against deadly childhood disease, of course we’ll never protect every child as long as stupidity is in the mix, but we are way ahead of were we were 100 or so years ago.

21 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:51:42am

Our school isn’t helping matters. They sent out a memo at the start of the year that we should keep children at home if they have flu symptoms. We did that with ours and even sent them back with doctors notes. Soon after a letter came to our home soon after that our children had too many absences from school and that they would need to have their teachers fill out a petition form to get credit for their classes. It is a funding/paperwork issue but I suspect it discourages parents from making the right call if their child has a mild fever or other flu symptoms.

22 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:52:04am

re: #7 Crashnburn

How dare anyone question that great vaccine authority Jenny McCarthy, MD, FACS, PhD, ETC.! After countless hours in her lab she was able to prove her vaccine - damage theories with the peer review necessary to… Wait, no lab? no proof, no peer review? Well, she is pretty hot, so lets listen to her!

Time for a boob thread? And by “boob,” I mean stupid person, not the other meaning.

23 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:52:19am

re: #16 reloadingisnotahobby

You wouldn’t be in Bucks County would ya?
Been all over the Quakertown area …Loved it!

No, it was in the Johnstown area. Ya know, famous for a few floods and Slap Shot was filmed there.

24 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:52:28am

re: #15 reine.de.tout
And, what are # for Hosp…and deaths to the regular 24hr flu?
Is there a huge diff…?

25 thedopefishlives  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:53:29am

re: #14 funky chicken

check out this comment to the third article:

OMG

It’s going to mutate and wipe out 95% of the world’s population, but the vaccine is too dangerous.

How do these people get out of bed in the morning?

A virus which was made up in the lab? ALEX FREAKIN’ JONES?! Oh good grief. It’s too early in the morning for this.

26 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:53:52am

re: #14 funky chicken

How do these people get out of bed in the morning?

By brushing off the cheeto dust and stepping around the empty beer cans and pizza boxes.

27 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:54:14am

re: #22 Mad Al-Jaffee

Time for a boob thread? And by “boob,” I mean stupid person, not the other meaning.

In BED!!

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:54:26am

re: #26 DaddyG

By brushing off the cheeto dust and stepping around the empty beer cans and pizza boxes.

And spilling the bong.

29 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:55:26am

re: #20 Spider mensch

But…but…we were better off back then! [Says the utter clueless and useless celebrity]

30 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:56:07am

re: #20 Spider mensch

I’ve said it before, but I suppose it bears repeating for any anti vax who may be reading, go take walk thru a turn of the century cemetery. read the ages on the tombstones. all those young children didn’t die of falling off of ice wagons. we’ve come along way in the fight against deadly childhood disease, of course we’ll never protect every child as long as stupidity is in the mix, but we are way ahead of were we were 100 or so years ago.


Have them focus on the years 1917-1918 and count the rows of children buried next to their siblings and mothers. That is what the flu can do.

31 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:57:48am

re: #21 DaddyG

Bureaucracy at its finest. Unbelievable.

32 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:57:58am

re: #20 Spider mensch

I do walk thru old Cemeteries…It’s very educational!
Some lost all their children…What a heart break!

33 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:59:37am

re: #30 DaddyG

It’s a simple failure to understand relative risk. The risk of a child dying from most of the things they are being vaccinated against is much higher than them suffering any of the myriad imaginary afflictions from thimerisol or whatever else the anti-vaxers want to blame.

Autism seems to be the bee in the bonnet of most of them. I don’t think it’s a matter of higher incidence myself, more like better identification.

34 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 5:59:41am

Given Maher’s widely rumored exploits at various gentleman clubs in D.C., I’d think he’d want as many vaccines as he could possibly get his hands on.

35 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:01:53am

re: #24 reloadingisnotahobby

And, what are # for Hosp…and deaths to the regular 24hr flu?
Is there a huge diff…?

Click on the links in that story for further information on those topics

36 Spider Mensch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:02:55am

re: #30 DaddyG

Have them focus on the years 1917-1918 and count the rows of children buried next to their siblings and mothers. That is what the flu can do.

My wife worked on a family genealogy project this summer. thru her research we located the tombstone of my great grand parents in a cemetery in the area. I had never known of the existence of it. along with my two great grandparents was their last son who was listed as 1 year old. this was 1904 for the death of the little boy Francis. my great grandfather went right after. my great grandmother about 1906 so 2 years or so later. my great grand parents were only in their early 40’s. My grandfather and his remaining brothers were raised by an aunt. according to my uncle ( the only one left from that family) my great grand parents and the little boy all died from TB.

37 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:03:29am

re: #35 reine.de.tout
Ah Geeez…Ya mean I gotta read the whole thing!
LOL
Thanks…I’ll do it later.
work and all…

38 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:04:47am

BBL

39 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:05:22am

Good article that I posted in spinoffs last night:
nycskeptics.org

40 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:08:12am

re: #12 DaddyG

As bad as it can be, the flu is the least of my worries.

Just imagine smallpox, tuberculosis or other crippling and deadly diseases getting a foothold in our country again.

I am very concerned that between illegal immigrants who are afraid to use public health resources and the unimmunized children of anti-vaxers we face potential epidemics of diseases that we had under control in our country.

Have they re-started vaccinating for smallpox, which was stopped in the 70’s?

41 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:10:12am

re: #40 nonic

No, but smallpox is one of those diseases that would decimate the population were it to be released out into the world again. My understanding is that it had been eradicated but that there are still strains in secure labs.

42 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:12:07am

re: #20 Spider mensch

I’ve said it before, but I suppose it bears repeating for any anti vax who may be reading, go take walk thru a turn of the century cemetery. read the ages on the tombstones. all those young children didn’t die of falling off of ice wagons. we’ve come along way in the fight against deadly childhood disease, of course we’ll never protect every child as long as stupidity is in the mix, but we are way ahead of were we were 100 or so years ago.

Indeed, we’ve come a long way. Kids and people also used to die of simple respiratory infections and infected wounds that we now treat with antibiotics, also because of a lack of knowledge of antisepsis, and lack of anesthesia which killed people with shock during attempted surgeries.

43 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:13:18am

I just saw this on Drudge:

Terrorism arrest in Boston… Developing…

No links. Anyone have any info?

44 thedopefishlives  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:15:25am

re: #33 PT Barnum


Autism seems to be the bee in the bonnet of most of them. I don’t think it’s a matter of higher incidence myself, more like better identification.

The Mrs. Fish’s extended family harbor a lot of anti-vaxxer inclinations because of the autism “connection”. I’ve long sought for hard evidence that vaccines didn’t cause autism - I hadn’t actually heard anything on the topic whatsoever, so it came as somewhat of a shock to me when the Mrs. Fish proposed not having our children vaccinated when we start having some. It’s good to read articles like this that lay out the numbers, although I might have to actually find the studies themselves at some point.

45 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:19:00am

re: #40 nonic

Have they re-started vaccinating for smallpox, which was stopped in the 70’s?

You can still get vaccinated. My husband works for (‘gasp’) the Canadian Media and gets a slew of shots before going oversees, smallpox amoung the many shots.

46 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:19:13am

re: #44 thedopefishlives

I think you may have it backwards. There is no credible evidence that there is a causal link between vaccination and autism. Having an autistic son myself, I think it’s more a matter of better detection and understanding.

I have ADD and my oldest son has ADHD, which are part of the spectrum, so I’m inclined to think that it has a genetic component in my case.

47 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:20:56am

Morning all, Sorry to go OT so early in a thread, but thought you might be interested in seeing this.

Anti-Islamic Dutch Lawmaker Event at University Cut Short as Crowd Turns Nasty

48 thedopefishlives  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:21:05am

re: #46 PT Barnum

I think you may have it backwards. There is no credible evidence that there is a causal link between vaccination and autism. Having an autistic son myself, I think it’s more a matter of better detection and understanding.

I have ADD and my oldest son has ADHD, which are part of the spectrum, so I’m inclined to think that it has a genetic component in my case.

Nono, I think you have ME backwards. I never even knew anyone had postulated a link between vaccination and autism; the idea sounded absurd to me (which, obviously, it is). Then I met the Mrs. Fish, and she told me about how her sister was a fervent anti-vaxer, and stories about kids who got vaccinated getting autism and getting sick and dying, yada yada yada. I was utterly shocked, and I wanted to go out and find where the evidence lay. Finding this article, with solid results against the anti-vaxers, gives me confidence.

49 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:27:11am

On topic this time.

Louis Farrakhan: H1N1 Vaccine Developed to Kill People

“The Earth can’t take 6.5 billion people. We just can’t feed that many. So what are you going to do? Kill as many as you can. We have to develop a science that kills them and makes it look as though they died from some disease,”

/Something just went “pop” behind my left eye.

50 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:27:23am

re: #48 thedopefishlives

I’ve long sought for hard evidence that vaccines didn’t cause autism .

This was the line that gave me that impression. I apologize if I misinterpreted your meaning.

51 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:28:44am

re: #49 Bubblehead II

More conspiracy theory thinking.

Can we find the paranoia gene and just eradicate it? Would probably wipe out Beck’s audience, though.

When did they stop teaching critical thinking in schools?

52 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:30:29am

re: #20 Spider mensch

I’ve said it before, but I suppose it bears repeating for any anti vax who may be reading, go take walk thru a turn of the century cemetery. read the ages on the tombstones. all those young children didn’t die of falling off of ice wagons. we’ve come along way in the fight against deadly childhood disease, of course we’ll never protect every child as long as stupidity is in the mix, but we are way ahead of were we were 100 or so years ago.

A response may be that big pharma hasn’t exactly covered itself in glory with debacles like Phen Phen, Thalidomide etc etc as well as using an insanely poisonous organic mercury compound as a fungicide.

Yes, vaccines are necessary. Childhood diseases can be deadly. NO, the big drug companies cannot be trusted at their word to deliver safe products. Putting mercury as a preservative in vaccines was insane.

53 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:31:05am

re: #45 spoosmith

You can still get vaccinated. My husband works for (‘gasp’) the Canadian Media and gets a slew of shots before going oversees, smallpox amoung the many shots.

That’s scary. Where does he go that he needs to be vaccinated against smallpox? If he needs to be vaccinated, that means it would be possible for him to contract it without the innoculation. And THAT means it’s out there somewhere, not eradicated as alleged. And with world wide travel today, then the unvaccinated in the US are at risk.

I know the Russians kept a stock of smallpox, along with the US, hence fears of its use in biological warfare. Of course, we wouldn’t have to worry about the Russians using it, giving it, selling it, or having it stolen… I hope.

Before the 1970’s when they routinely vaccinated for smallpox, it was just one innoculation once that was good for a lifetime. It left a small scar on the upper arm. So if he’s getting a smallpox shot each time he travels, they must have changed that. Do you know any more about it?

54 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:32:49am

re: #51 PT Barnum

“When did they stop teaching critical thinking in schools?”

Probably about the same time they started to to tell the kids that they couldn’t fail, even though they were.

55 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:33:17am

re: #49 Bubblehead II

On topic this time.

Louis Farrakhan: H1N1 Vaccine Developed to Kill People

“The Earth can’t take 6.5 billion people. We just can’t feed that many. So what are you going to do? Kill as many as you can. We have to develop a science that kills them and makes it look as though they died from some disease,”

/Something just went “pop” behind my left eye.

This quote could have just as easily made it into the Rush Limbaugh thread.
Wow - my LGF reading for the morning just came full circle.

56 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:36:36am

re: #53 nonic

He was sent to Egypt in the run up to the Iraq war. He had numerous innoculations for stuff I thought wasn’t an issue any more (this was years ago, so I don’t remember them all).

He was also sent with a flak jacket, hazmat suit, respirator and anthrax medication. It was not a happy 6 weeks for me.

57 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:36:51am

re: #49 Bubblehead II

On topic this time.

Louis Farrakhan: H1N1 Vaccine Developed to Kill People

“The Earth can’t take 6.5 billion people. We just can’t feed that many. So what are you going to do? Kill as many as you can. We have to develop a science that kills them and makes it look as though they died from some disease,”

/Something just went “pop” behind my left eye.

And who developed the vaccine? Joos, of course.

58 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:37:43am

re: #52 celticdragon

Except that the variety of mercury used is not the same kind as the mercury that everyone is warned about:

“Although the names may sound the same, methylmercury and ethylmercury are very different. An analogy is the difference between methyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol: Methyl alcohol is antifreeze, and ethyl alcohol is a Bud light.”
- Dr. Ari Brown, pediatrician and author of popular books for parents about infant and child health and development.

It (Thimerisol) is 49.6% mercury by weight and is metabolized or degraded into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. Prior to its introduction in the 1930’s, data were available in several animal species and humans providing evidence for its safety and effectiveness as a preservative. Since then, thimerosal has a long record of safe and effective use preventing bacterial and fungal contamination of vaccines, with no ill effects established other than minor local reactions at the site of injection.

Source

59 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:39:06am

re: #58 PT Barnum

We used to break open thermometers when we were kids and play with the mercury. Didn’t hurt us. I still have all 12 fingers and all 12 toes.

/

60 theliel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:43:31am

“When did they stop teaching critical thinking in schools?”“

About when public schools got tied up with Corporate America. You don’t need a whole lot of critical thinking to work an assembly line or alot of other manufacturing jobs, and that’s what the schools (espeically around MI way) were designed to produce - well read (for the times), coherent (speaking english and ‘americanized’) literate biological cogs for the industral machine.

Pretty good compact when it was signed back in the teens and twenties. Henry Ford had an Idea what a ‘good american’ looked like, and some of it was pretty positive and I’m glad that the progressives of the time found common cause to make things alot better for alot of people, but, y’know…the old girl is showing her age.

“Zero Tolerance” policies and other ridiculousness (a result of the War on Common Sense) only make things worse at an institutional level - they teach critical thinking, but mostly how to either avoid authority or corrupt the system for personal gain.

61 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:44:00am

re: #59 Mad Al-Jaffee

As I stated above, the types of mercury are different. The mercury in Thimerisol metabolizes into ethly mercury which exits the body quickly. The mercury that is of more concern is methyl mercury, which tends to stay in the body much longer. As long term exposure is connected with neurological damage, methyl mercury is more of a problem (coal fired power plants, fish, etc)

62 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:44:32am

re: #53 nonic

the smallpox vaccine isn’t a shot

it certainly wouldn’t be repeated “every year,” as you likely know

different destinations have different diseases, obviously. If one goes to Africa, one needs different shots than if one goes to South America, etc. The CDC has great pages available on the web that discuss diseases endemic to all kinds of countries with vaccine recommendations if one is travelling to them.

My husband (active duty military) had a smallpox vaccination before a recent deployment because he was going to spend time in Africa. I doubt that means that smallpox is known to be around in Africa, but it doesn’t hurt to be too cautious.

You had a smallpox vaccine as a child, so you don’t need to repeat it.

63 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:44:59am

Parents, especially those with autism in their family, fear for their children. Can you blame them? The pharmaceutical industry, busy directly selling drugs to television audiences (who will then ask their doctors for it) has done very little in the way of public education on vaccines. Their attitude is shut up and take it. Why would anyone ever question it? Because there are hucksters out there and science is losing the PR war. Maybe Big Pharma could put some of its billions of dollars into education instead of relying on the CDC and a few lonely voices like Dr. Offit. This is a crisis, and rather than bemoan anxious parents as stupid hopeless deniers, let’s address the problem: Get the word out. Talk to people. There is a lot of shouting and not a lot of explaining.

64 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:48:07am
three of the major fears about the H1N1 flu shot.

A non-issue. There isn’t any flu vaccine, H1N1 or otherwise, to be had in my area. They ran out of ordinary vaccine weeks early, because resources had been diverted to H1N1 production. And H1N1 won’t be available for some unspecified time, somewhere in the future.

My county health department’s helpful suggestion: wash your hands, and don’t cough on people.

65 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:51:46am

re: #64 SixDegrees

A non-issue. There isn’t any flu vaccine, H1N1 or otherwise, to be had in my area. They ran out of ordinary vaccine weeks early, because resources had been diverted to H1N1 production. And H1N1 won’t be available for some unspecified time, somewhere in the future.

My county health department’s helpful suggestion: wash your hands, and don’t cough on people.

Same situation here.
And actually, there was an outbreak in the schools several weeks ago, that seems to be dying out.

By the time we get the vaccine here, the epidemic will have come and gone.

66 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:52:28am

re: #64 SixDegrees

A non-issue. There isn’t any flu vaccine, H1N1 or otherwise, to be had in my area. They ran out of ordinary vaccine weeks early, because resources had been diverted to H1N1 production. And H1N1 won’t be available for some unspecified time, somewhere in the future.

My county health department’s helpful suggestion: wash your hands, and don’t cough on people.

The health dept here got in swine flu shots yesterday morning, so I took my kids in. They ran out of seasonal flu shots the previous afternoon. I had gotten my seasonal flu shot at my doctor’s office when I went in for something else. The swine flu shot was only for school aged kids at the health dept, and nobody else has any.

So, I got the seasonal shot but no swine flu shot, and the kids got the swine flu shot but no seasonal shots. Pretty much everybody in our metropolitan area is out of seasonal flu shots now too.

What a goat rope…Hey! Let’s put them in charge of the entire health care system!

67 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:52:44am

re: #65 reine.de.tout

Has there been any indication as to whether you can catch it more than once? My understanding is that once you fight it off there is immunity, but I could be wrong.

68 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:52:45am

re: #46 PT Barnum

Some of the issues also stem from reclassification of children who were previously considered mentally retarded or other such euphemisms. Now, many of those who had learning disabilities in school are being treated as having autism spectrum disorders. With better screening, you’re more likely to pick up kids who have even the mildest forms - causing what some of the more hysterical types will call an epidemic, even if the kids themselves are fully functional.

On a related note, watch how the news headlines that certain cancer screenings may not be nearly as effective as once thought will be spun. Instead of realizing that there are gaps in the reporting - such as the need to screen those at high risk (family history, medications, etc.), or that the current schedules for testing might be inadequate (because the cancers studied may be more aggressive and spread between the testing), we’ll instead be treated to reports that fewer people are being screened with PSA or mammograms.

The reporting also suggests that a rise in cancer incidence may be due to incidental discovery of cancers that are not fatal and will not spread.

Then, there’s the costs-benefit analysis, which isn’t addressed in the reporting at all.

69 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:54:10am

re: #49 Bubblehead II

Hmmm… that is the kind of drivel that could have come from anyone, whether it was Malthus or Ehrlich or the neo-Luddites who are pushing for curtailing energy usage, etc.

70 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:54:15am

re: #61 PT Barnum

As I stated above, the types of mercury are different. The mercury in Thimerisol metabolizes into ethly mercury which exits the body quickly. The mercury that is of more concern is methyl mercury, which tends to stay in the body much longer. As long term exposure is connected with neurological damage, methyl mercury is more of a problem (coal fired power plants, fish, etc)

You are saying that about Thimerisol but the research to back that up is very limited. There are very good questions to be asked and researched. The question of using mercury. The question of administering vaccines to an immune system which is completely and 100% not ready for it. Unfortunately, these questions get completely lost when people start shouting about how vaccines are going to kill our kids and kill everyone and don’t go near them.

71 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:55:06am

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

I just saw this on Drudge:


No links. Anyone have any info?

Another boyscout with a pocket knife in his glove box no doubt. /

72 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:56:49am

re: #67 PT Barnum

Generally, if you are exposed and catch an influenza strain, you’re more likely to be immune to that strain down the line (although if you catch that strain early in life, you might be more likely to be again infected when you’re elderly). The problem is that influenza mutates annually and new strains are constantly emerging. The annual vaccine hits only several of the most common strains that scientists reasonably expect to be circulating that year. The H1N1 vaccine is specifically for that strain and should provide protection against getting a severe reaction if you’re infected with that strain.

73 kirkspencer  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:04am

re: #60 theliel

“Zero Tolerance” policies and other ridiculousness (a result of the War on Common Sense) only make things worse at an institutional level - they teach critical thinking, but mostly how to either avoid authority or corrupt the system for personal gain.

Actually, Zero Tolerance came about from… no, I’m going to agree, it’s a war on common sense. But it’s driven by fear of Da Drugs running against parents who will sue if Johnny and Joe are treated any differently. This latter…

When I worked in a prison the magic word was “equitability” - not fair, but equitable treatment. Which means everyone gets stuck with the same rules unless specific circumstances warrant a change; and those specific circumstances mandate paperwork so they can be applied next time and the exception can’t be used by others not having the circumstances.

Oh, and if you made the exception you might not be protected by qualified immunity (ie, you were doing your job to the best of your knowledge and within the rules and procedures that prevent lots of stupidity and harm). That means instead of the state covering your legal costs (and paying if you lose) you’re out there all on your own.

Given that fact, a good administrator does his or her best to stick to the rules as delineated. They get delineated in zero tolerance mode due to Da Fear of Da Drugs (and in a lot of places Da Fear of Da Sex), and… Stupidity reigns.

Blame is easy to assign unless you use, well, common sense.

74 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:24am

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

Here: boston.com

75 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:29am

re: #46 PT Barnum

I think you may have it backwards. There is no credible evidence that there is a causal link between vaccination and autism. Having an autistic son myself, I think it’s more a matter of better detection and understanding.

I have ADD and my oldest son has ADHD, which are part of the spectrum, so I’m inclined to think that it has a genetic component in my case.

As I’m sure you know, nobody is suggesting that it’s not genetic. Nobody credible at least. The idea is that you have a genetic tendency to lack the biochemical ability to remove toxins, or to develop strong autoimmune responses at a very early age. Kids that don’t have these problems, can hang out in a toxic dump and be fine. If you have it, then exposure to toxins might trigger autism.

76 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:33am

re: #51 PT Barnum

When did they stop teaching critical thinking in schools?

Somewhere in between the filmstrips on how the world was going to die if we left the water running while we brushed our teeth and the lesson on banana condoms.

77 Bubblehead II  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:37am

re: #71 DaddyG

Here is a Al-Reuters story on it.

78 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:58:10am

re: #67 PT Barnum

Has there been any indication as to whether you can catch it more than once? My understanding is that once you fight it off there is immunity, but I could be wrong.

With all viruses I’m aware of, you’re immune once you survive.

79 Four More Tears  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:59:27am

re: #78 SixDegrees

With all viruses I’m aware of, you’re immune once you survive.

To that particular strain, which is how vaccines work if I understand them correctly.

80 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:00:27am

re: #68 lawhawk

Some of the issues also stem from reclassification of children who were previously considered mentally retarded or other such euphemisms. Now, many of those who had learning disabilities in school are being treated as having autism spectrum disorders. With better screening, you’re more likely to pick up kids who have even the mildest forms - causing what some of the more hysterical types will call an epidemic, even if the kids themselves are fully functional.

My opinion - I think the rate of incidence of autism has increased a ton. Some of it is a matter of better detection (education of the medical community), some of it is a matter of expanding the definition. But that still leaves a large increase, and cause for concern. If you don’t think that kids are struggling more these days, you need to look harder.

81 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:00:34am

re: #59 Mad Al-Jaffee

We used to break open thermometers when we were kids and play with the mercury. Didn’t hurt us. I still have all 12 fingers and all 12 toes.

/


We’ve got a guy who uses “Mad” as the prefix to his nick claiming his exposure to mercury never hurt him…

…this is too good! :-D

82 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:01:20am

re: #70 cliffster

Matabolism of Thimerisol

and a different study

There is no study so far showing a link between ethyl mercury and neurological damage, to my knowledge.

83 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:01:57am

re: #78 SixDegrees

With all viruses I’m aware of, you’re immune once you survive.

Heh “Once you survive” - excellent choice of words. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

84 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:02:58am

You’re up early Charles. Didn’t mean to cause sleepless nights when I sent the links (probably only one of many to do so) to you yesterday.

85 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:03:24am

re: #75 cliffster

But that would include all toxins, which makes the connection between thimerisol and autism all the more tenuous.

86 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:05:19am

When to use antivirals for swine flu

We’ve gotten the question here fairly frequently: If antivirals (Tamiflu, Relenza) for swine flu work best when given early but shouldn’t be given to people who aren’t really that sick, how do you balance waiting for them to get sick and have the drugs not work well with giving it when you don’t need to? There is no absolutely right answer to this difficult question. Early in the pandemic antivirals were being given prophylactically to stop spread, then they were being given only when a diagnosis of swine flu was confirmed. Then only to the sickest patients. We’re all on a learning curve. The latest recommendations from CDC try to walk the narrow line between over use and under use, taking into account that missing early treatment could endanger the lives of some patients who go on to serious illness. So the trick is to initiate early treatment for those at highest risk, even if some, or any, test results aren’t available or aren’t positive. For those patients, “empiric antiviral treatment” is indicated. Empiric treatment means use the drugs and ask questions later.

87 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:07:27am

re: #74 lawhawk

re: #77 Bubblehead II

Very few details out right now.

88 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:07:38am

re: #68 lawhawk

Some of the issues also stem from reclassification of children who were previously considered mentally retarded or other such euphemisms. Now, many of those who had learning disabilities in school are being treated as having autism spectrum disorders. With better screening, you’re more likely to pick up kids who have even the mildest forms - causing what some of the more hysterical types will call an epidemic, even if the kids themselves are fully functional.

There is better screening, which is catching more and reclassifying some conditions as you say, but let’s not gloss over the fact that there is also more autism. If you have a kid in public school you see this right away. There were retarded kids in school when I was young — they were not autistic. This is something entirely different. You find a lot of autism deniers among vaccine champions these days.

89 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:08:08am

re: #58 PT Barnum

Except that the variety of mercury used is not the same kind as the mercury that everyone is warned about:

Source

There is no such thing as safe Mercury. When Thimerosal was first used by the Army, it was labeled (quite clearly in photographs) as POISON. One of my best friends is a Ph.D chemist retired from Lorillard Tobacco, and she at first refused to believe that anybody would knowingly put something so insanely dangerous in a consumable product.

Dr. Bernadine Healy is the former head of the National Institutes of Health, and the most well-known medical voice yet to break with her colleagues on the vaccine-autism question.

Healy goes on to say public health officials have intentionally avoided researching whether subsets of children are “susceptible” to vaccine side effects - afraid the answer will scare the public.

“You’re saying that public health officials have turned their back on a viable area of research largely because they’re afraid of what might be found?” Attkisson asked.

Healy said: “There is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. “First of all,” Healy said, “I think the public’s smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show.”

As an example, Healy points to the existing vaccine court claims.

CBS News has learned the government has paid more than 1,300 brain injury claims in vaccine court since 1988, but is not studying those cases or tracking how many of them resulted in autism.


The branch of the government that handles vaccine court told CBS News: “Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries…may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.”

“What we’re seeing in the bulk of the population: vaccines are safe,” said Healy. “But there may be this susceptible group. The fact that there is concern, that you don’t want to know that susceptible group is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion that there is a susceptible group… what can I say?”


cbsnews.com


There is a lot we don’t know, and Dr Healy thinks that research is being deliberately avoided because the results may be bad for moral.

I am not an anti-vaccine advocate. I am actually getting more shots this week for college requirements. I don’t intend to be a dupe for a company’s profit, however…and I see no reason why I should not insist that the medicine used by myself and my family be safe and actually thoroughly studied. I am not convinced of either at the moment.

90 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:08:18am

re: #43 NJDhockeyfan

I just saw this on Drudge:

No links. Anyone have any info?

reuters.com

91 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:08:58am

re: #85 PT Barnum

But that would include all toxins, which makes the connection between thimerisol and autism all the more tenuous.

Absolutely. The real work being done is on general toxins, and general immune system function. Thimerisol and vaccines is a very small slice of what is being researched in the toxin-autism link. The body of work is very good, demands more research, and the ideas about vaccines is only a line item in it. That’s why it pisses me off so much for these people and their sky-is-falling attitude about vaccines. It causes the general public to instantly consider anyone concerned about environmental causes of Autism to be crazy.

92 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:09:12am

News conference is now

BOSTON (Reuters) - One man was arrested in the Boston area and at least two other co-conspirators are involved in a terrorism-related investigation, a U.S. Justice Department spokeswoman said on Wednesday.

Further details were to be announced at a news conference scheduled for 10 a.m. EDT, the spokeswoman said.

93 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:10:05am

re: #82 PT Barnum

Also, if this is true, then why did they quit using Thimerisol in routine vaccinations in the early part of this decade? Now it’s reserved for emergencies. If there’s no reason at all to worry, then why change?

94 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:10:20am

Its 10:09 EST where is your terrorism press conference?

They really ought to start these things on time. /

95 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:11:17am

re: #62 funky chicken

It alarms me that anyone today needs a smallpox innoculation to go anywhere. Because that can only mean that it is POSSIBLE to contract the disease at that destination without an innoculation. And apparently we are talking about Egypt and other parts of Africa — not exactly the far side of the moon.

Unlike childhood measles for which the fatality rate in healthy population in a developed country is zero-point-three percent (0.3% or 3 deaths per 1,000 cases) en.wikipedia.org the fatality rate for smallpox is 30-35% en.wikipedia.org

Given world wide immigration and travel in general today, if smallpox is active anywhere in the world —- certainly enough that travellers are advised to be innoculated —- then the unvaccinated are at risk, and it is a severe risk.

One has to wonder what the politics and/or economics are that makes smallpox innoculation a non-issue.

Beyond that, since nowadays most people in the West were not innoculated against smallpox, why, in this age of terroism, is the threat ignored?

96 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:12:13am

re: #94 DaddyG

Its 10:09 EST where is your terrorism press conference?

They really ought to start these things on time. /

There’s a live feed link up at MSNBC

MSNBC Video
97 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:12:38am

re: #88 SeaMonkey

There is better screening, which is catching more and reclassifying some conditions as you say, but let’s not gloss over the fact that there is also more autism. If you have a kid in public school you see this right away. There were retarded kids in school when I was young — they were not autistic. This is something entirely different. You find a lot of autism deniers among vaccine champions these days.

Absolutely. If autism detection has just “gotten better”, then where are all the 60 year old autistic people?? There should hundreds of thousands of older autistic people that just slipped through the cracks, right?

I have had this discussion at a liberal blog where I was assured that they (missing older autistic people) were all institutionalized, which is why we couldn’t find them for studies.

Uh huh.

98 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:14:41am

Wow it’s a press conference kind of morning…

Filmmakers to Release Details of ACORN Sting in Philadelphia
 9:30am EST

Live link to H1N1 response Senate Hearing 9:00am EST

99 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:15:28am

re: #88 SeaMonkey

There is better screening, which is catching more and reclassifying some conditions as you say, but let’s not gloss over the fact that there is also more autism. If you have a kid in public school you see this right away. There were retarded kids in school when I was young — they were not autistic. This is something entirely different. You find a lot of autism deniers among vaccine champions these days.

It’s the rise of mainstreaming. When I was a kid in public school, the handicapped kids were sent to different, “special” schools. Now the public schools are expected to handle even severely disabled kids and their needs.

Just because the kids are more visible in the public school classroom doesn’t mean there are more of them.

And yes, I have teaching experience and family members who have taught SPED and speech therapy for many years. They are asked to handle cases now that would not have been in mainstream public schools 20 years ago.

100 ali mentary  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:16:06am

I thought that SARS and Mad Cow Disease and Avian Flu already prepared the public opinion to the occurrence of deadly pandemics.

I was wrong. Or maybe not.

:D

101 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:16:40am

re: #99 funky chicken

It’s the rise of mainstreaming. When I was a kid in public school, the handicapped kids were sent to different, “special” schools. Now the public schools are expected to handle even severely disabled kids and their needs.

Just because the kids are more visible in the public school classroom doesn’t mean there are more of them.

And yes, I have teaching experience and family members who have taught SPED and speech therapy for many years. They are asked to handle cases now that would not have been in mainstream public schools 20 years ago.

So you deny that there are more cases of autism today than in say 1980?

102 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:17:27am

re: #93 cliffster

Also, if this is true, then why did they quit using Thimerisol in routine vaccinations in the early part of this decade? Now it’s reserved for emergencies. If there’s no reason at all to worry, then why change?

re: #89 celticdragon

For the same reason they stopped using Alar as a pesticide: bad publicity. Although neither has been shown to cause the harm alleged, it’s simpler to just use something else once people start thinking a product is bad.

There is no such thing as safe Mercury. When Thimerosal was first used by the Army, it was labeled (quite clearly in photographs) as POISON.

Uh - Thimerosal is used as a preservative, which by definition is poisonous. All preservatives fall into the “poison” category in that they prevent or inhibit growth of microorganisms.

Poisons are everywhere. You ingest scores of them every day. Whether they’re harmful or not - to you - is a matter of dosage.

I’m sure it’s been mentioned upstream already, but the removal of Thimerosal from vaccines - and the subsequent non-change in autism rates - pretty much scotches the whole “Thimerosal is to blame!” argument. Cause. Effect. Time to move on and investigate other possible causes.

103 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:17:46am

re: #97 celticdragon

Absolutely. If autism detection has just “gotten better”, then where are all the 60 year old autistic people?? There should hundreds of thousands of older autistic people that just slipped through the cracks, right?

I have had this discussion at a liberal blog where I was assured that they (missing older autistic people) were all institutionalized, which is why we couldn’t find them for studies.

Uh huh.

My uncle is one of them. He lives in a group home for “mentally retarded” adults. He’s one the bad end of the autisitic spectrum. There are lots of folks just like him that most people never saw or noticed because they weren’t ever enrolled in public schools.

104 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:19:03am

re: #103 funky chicken

My uncle is one of them. He lives in a group home for “mentally retarded” adults. He’s one the bad end of the autisitic spectrum. There are lots of folks just like him that most people never saw or noticed because they weren’t ever enrolled in public schools.

There’s your answer. Let’s re-open all the asylums Reagan closed.

105 acwgusa  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:20:28am

re: #49 Bubblehead II

On topic this time.

Louis Farrakhan: H1N1 Vaccine Developed to Kill People

“The Earth can’t take 6.5 billion people. We just can’t feed that many. So what are you going to do? Kill as many as you can. We have to develop a science that kills them and makes it look as though they died from some disease,”

/Something just went “pop” behind my left eye.

Stop the planet please, I’d like to get off.

106 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:20:35am

re: #102 SixDegrees

Poisons are everywhere. You ingest scores of them every day. Whether they’re harmful or not - to you - is a matter of dosage.

And a matter of genetics. Some people detoxify better than others. That’s the point.

I’m sure it’s been mentioned upstream already, but the removal of Thimerosal from vaccines - and the subsequent non-change in autism rates - pretty much scotches the whole “Thimerosal is to blame!” argument. Cause. Effect. Time to move on and investigate other possible causes.

That kind of sweeping conclusion based on anecdotal evidence is one that you (rightfully) scoff at coming from people trying to say that vaccines are to blame.

107 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:20:39am

re: #93 cliffster

Also, if this is true, then why did they quit using Thimerisol in routine vaccinations in the early part of this decade? Now it’s reserved for emergencies. If there’s no reason at all to worry, then why change?

The reason to worry was in the irrational and unfounded fear of Thimerisol. They removed it since it was a lightening rod for criticism. As a result, the rates of autism have NOT dropped, as they would have had Thimerisol been the root cause. Improved diagnosis and expanded definition is plenty to describe this “epidemic” of autism.

108 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:20:47am

re: #95 nonic

honestly, there was a lot of concern that Saddam had some smallpox that he might release when he was attacked . He didn’t.

I don’t think there is smallpox in Africa, but honestly, how would we know if there was? Better to be safe than sorry, I suppose.

109 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:20:55am

re: #99 funky chicken

It’s the rise of mainstreaming. When I was a kid in public school, the handicapped kids were sent to different, “special” schools. Now the public schools are expected to handle even severely disabled kids and their needs.

Just because the kids are more visible in the public school classroom doesn’t mean there are more of them.

And yes, I have teaching experience and family members who have taught SPED and speech therapy for many years. They are asked to handle cases now that would not have been in mainstream public schools 20 years ago.

So show me the study that finds all the missing autistic people that should be living among us right now. If detection is better, then where are all the autistic adults? Let me guess…they are hiding out in family attics and assisted living facilities etc…and we can’t actually find them to show that causality has been unchanged, right?

110 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:21:24am

I left a comment at that “misinformants” page, the comment right above mine said “You forgot Bill Maher”:

Yes, why isn’t Bill Maher on that list, I have seen him use his show multiple times to spread the anti-vaccination party line.

In 1952 when Polio was at it’s peak there where over 60,000 cases in the U.S. resulting in more than 3,000 deaths and another 16-18,000 maimed for life by it’s effects. Back then children were kept at home and theaters and other public venues were shut to children during the summer months while polio ran rampant. Those advocating against vaccines apparently don’t remember what it was like before them. Please go talk to someone who is 65 or older who lived during those times, or better yet go take a walk in an older graveyard and look at children’s headstones, the many, many, children’s headstones.

Not as if the anti-vax people will pay any attention, but maybe someone wavering about vaccinating their kids will at least think about the consequences.

111 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:23:38am

re: #110 ausador

I left a comment at that “misinformants” page, the comment right above mine said “You forgot Bill Maher”:

Not as if the anti-vax people will pay any attention, but maybe someone wavering about vaccinating their kids will at least think about the consequences.

The reason this argument withers and dies is that parents care more about their own kids than the greater good, which is abstract.

112 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:23:41am

re: #103 funky chicken

My uncle is one of them. He lives in a group home for “mentally retarded” adults. He’s one the bad end of the autisitic spectrum. There are lots of folks just like him that most people never saw or noticed because they weren’t ever enrolled in public schools.

So we should be able to actually find them and prove your hypothesis, right?

Funny how when my mother was in nursing school in the 60’s, autism was considered a one in 10,000 event. My mother was told she might actually see one case in her entire career as a nurse.

Last month, the incidence was pegged at just over one in one hundred.

Better detection and classification?

Bullshit.

113 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:23:46am

re: #107 CyanSnowHawk

The reason to worry was in the irrational and unfounded fear of Thimerisol. They removed it since it was a lightening rod for criticism. As a result, the rates of autism have NOT dropped, as they would have had Thimerisol been the root cause. Improved diagnosis and expanded definition is plenty to describe this “epidemic” of autism.

It’s unfortunate - I think yours and others’ tendency to put “epidemic” in quotes is a direct kneejerk response to the chickenlittlery about vaccines. If there wasn’t already an emotional response against the idea, perhaps people would be more open to look at what is a real problem. Thanks Jenny.

114 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:25:36am

re: #107 CyanSnowHawk

The reason to worry was in the irrational and unfounded fear of Thimerisol. They removed it since it was a lightening rod for criticism. As a result, the rates of autism have NOT dropped, as they would have had Thimerisol been the root cause. Improved diagnosis and expanded definition is plenty to describe this “epidemic” of autism.

Yep. One in ten thousand forty years ago to one in 100 today.

Show me the missing autistic adults. I’m sure there’s a peer reviewed study somewhere…

115 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:26:10am

re: #112 celticdragon

1 in 91 overall. 1 in 53 boys. The 53 might not be exactly right but it’s in the 50’s.

116 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:27:52am

re: #106 cliffster

That kind of sweeping conclusion based on anecdotal evidence is one that you (rightfully) scoff at coming from people trying to say that vaccines are to blame.

There’s nothing anecdotal about it. The few vaccines that once contained Thimerosal were reformulated between 1999 and 2001. That’s more than enough time to see a change in autism rates if Thimerosal were responsible. There hasn’t been such a change. Thimerosal is not to blame.

Lemme know when there’s some actual evidence connecting something - anything - with autism in a causal way, and I’ll happily take a look at it. But no one paying attention believes Thimerosal has anything to do with it. It’s utterly ridiculous to hold such a belief in the face of stark reality.

117 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:28:17am

re: #114 celticdragon

Yep. One in ten thousand forty years ago to one in 100 today.

Show me the missing autistic adults. I’m sure there’s a peer reviewed study somewhere…

Look for them yourself chicken little. How come autism rates didn’t drop when Thimerisol was pulled from use in vaccines?

118 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:28:23am

re: #115 cliffster

1 in 91 overall. 1 in 53 boys. The 53 might not be exactly right but it’s in the 50’s.

Christ, that’s even worse then I had read. Can you source that?

119 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:29:01am

re: #117 CyanSnowHawk

There is no study…which is why you can’t produce it.

120 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:31:25am

re: #104 SeaMonkey

There’s your answer. Let’s re-open all the asylums Reagan closed.

Reagan was president from 1981 to 1989.

The Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act of 1980, which authorized the Attorney General to “seek relief for persons confined in public institutions where conditions exist that deprive residents of their constitutional rights” (i.e., move institutionalized persons out, mostly onto the street, and close down the facilities, which was pursued by the states to save money) was signed into law by Jimmy Carter.

121 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:31:31am

Somebody in the Wired comments linked this article that “raises questions” about the flu vaccine because old people still die, sometimes after they get the flu vaccine. Aaargh. But buried in the article we find this nugget of information:

There’s some merit to this reasoning. Unfortunately, the very people who most need protection from the flu also have immune systems that are least likely to respond to vaccine. Studies show that young, healthy people mount a glorious immune response to seasonal flu vaccine, and their response reduces their chances of getting the flu and may lessen the severity of symptoms if they do get it. But they aren’t the people who die from seasonal flu. By contrast, the elderly, particularly those over age70, don’t have a good immune response to vaccine—and they’re the ones who account for most flu deaths. (Infants with severe disabilities, such as leukemia and congenital lung disease, and people who are immune-compromised—from AIDS, or diabetes, or cancer treatment—make up the rest. As of August8, only 36 deaths from swine flu had been confirmed among children in the U.S., and the overwhelming majority of those children had multiple, severe health disorders.)

The entire article builds up the argument that flu shots are worthless…because immunocompromised people don’t mount a good immune response to vaccines.

Damn, the stupid really burns.

122 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:31:31am

re: #112 celticdragon

So we should be able to actually find them and prove your hypothesis, right?

Funny how when my mother was in nursing school in the 60’s, autism was considered a one in 10,000 event. My mother was told she might actually see one case in her entire career as a nurse.

Last month, the incidence was pegged at just over one in one hundred.

Better detection and classification?

Bullshit.

Far from bullshit. There are many doctors now claiming that kids are being overdiagnosed with autism, thanks to morons like Jenny McCarthy making it suddenly “fashionable” to have a child with the disease. Sadly, doctors are as prone to fads as anyone, and the always-nebulous definition of the disease feeds such misdiagnosis. It’s not as though there’s a definitive test that can be given.

But let’s assume, just for grins, that you’re correct, and autism cases are skyrocketing. That lets Thimerosal completley off the hook, since it hasn’t been used in vaccines administered to children since at least 2001.

123 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:32:43am

re: #118 celticdragon

Christ, that’s even worse then I had read. Can you source that?

I dug this up real quick.

chicagotribune.com

Parents of 1 in 91 children said yes and also said their child currently has the disorder. For boys, the figure was 1 in 58.

124 shutdown  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:33:11am

Charles - thanks for linking this article. I need access to succinct arguments; the anti-vax sentiment is growing stronger with the advance of the flu season. To me, the anti-vaxers are as bad as the PET terrorists who are happy to have their kids vaccinated and benefit form science, but threaten the lives of people who engage in essential research to make sure safe drugs are available to the populace.

125 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:33:50am

re: #108 funky chicken

I don’t think there is smallpox in Africa, but honestly, how would we know if there was? Better to be safe than sorry, I suppose.

Precisely. So with a death rate of 30-35%, why are we NOT innoculating for smallpox?

126 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:34:52am

Group homes for mentally retarded citizens aren’t “asylums” as some idiot above said. They are excellent facilities that house and help handicapped people all across the nation.

Mental retardation is NOT mental illness. The people in those “asylums” that the anti-vaxxer above mentioned were the mentally ill.

I’m outta here.

127 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:35:06am

re: #116 SixDegrees

There’s nothing anecdotal about it. The few vaccines that once contained Thimerosal were reformulated between 1999 and 2001. That’s more than enough time to see a change in autism rates if Thimerosal were responsible. There hasn’t been such a change. Thimerosal is not to blame.

Lemme know when there’s some actual evidence connecting something - anything - with autism in a causal way, and I’ll happily take a look at it. But no one paying attention believes Thimerosal has anything to do with it. It’s utterly ridiculous to hold such a belief in the face of stark reality.

No studies are being done…deliberately. This according to a former head of the National Institute for Health which I cited above. Even if Thimerosal is not a causal factor, there is no good reason to put an insanely toxic substance (at rates far above government standards for other Mercury compounds!) in your medicine. If you want to play with that shit, be my guest. I’ll pass.

Whatever environmental factor that somehow interacts with genetic causality has not been positively identified…yet.

128 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:35:39am

re: #116 SixDegrees

There’s nothing anecdotal about it. The few vaccines that once contained Thimerosal were reformulated between 1999 and 2001. That’s more than enough time to see a change in autism rates if Thimerosal were responsible. There hasn’t been such a change. Thimerosal is not to blame.

Lemme know when there’s some actual evidence connecting something - anything - with autism in a causal way, and I’ll happily take a look at it. But no one paying attention believes Thimerosal has anything to do with it. It’s utterly ridiculous to hold such a belief in the face of stark reality.

It’s very important to understand that nobody is saying Thimerisol is entirely to blame. It’s not even a big line item in the concerns. I’ve said it earlier in the article but the concern is general toxins in the environment. Thimerisol is only one very small piece of the puzzle, and I don’t even think it necessarily is a factor at all - just needs more study like all the rest of the theory.

129 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:36:43am

re: #125 nonic

The reason that smallpox vaccinations are no longer given to the general public is that the disease has been all but eradicated in the wild - there have been no outbreaks in decades. Two secured facilities still have the disease for research purposes, the CDC and its Russian counterpart.

130 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:37:50am

re: #125 nonic

Because we don’t all go thrashing through the African jungle?

We don’t routinely vaccinate against rabies either, but the CDC recommends rabies vaccinations for folks who travel to some areas where rabies is endemic. You got a smallpox vaccine, so you’re fine. I’m sure some big city health departments still have smallpox vaccine available if you want to seek it out.

131 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:38:19am

re: #128 cliffster

It’s very important to understand that nobody is saying Thimerisol is entirely to blame. It’s not even a big line item in the concerns. I’ve said it earlier in the article but the concern is general toxins in the environment. Thimerisol is only one very small piece of the puzzle, and I don’t even think it necessarily is a factor at all - just needs more study like all the rest of the theory.

Now who’s spouting bullshit. 10 years ago the battle cry was “Mercury is poisoning our kids” and now that the mercury based preservative is no longer used, and autism rates haven’t dropped, they are scrambling to find another problem with teh ebil vaccines.

132 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:38:23am

re: #128 cliffster

Thimerosal isn’t a piece of the puzzle at all. That is blindingly clear.

133 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:39:13am

re: #122 SixDegrees

But let’s assume, just for grins, that you’re correct, and autism cases are skyrocketing. That lets Thimerosal completley off the hook, since it hasn’t been used in vaccines administered to children since at least 2001.

Possibly…and possibly not. It isn’t being studied. Deliberately not being studied. Money talks.

We do know there is a genetic component. An environmental “trigger” is suspected, and we don’t know what it is at this time (assuming that it is real).

134 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:40:13am

re: #122 SixDegrees

From personal experience (and via those who work with autistic kids) that doctors will purposefully give autism spectrum disorder diagnoses to those who may not necessarily need the treatment in order to secure academic support services. It has nothing to do with the actual condition of the kid, but to game the system to get at resources that the parents (or doctors) think the kid needs (because it is more intensive service and interaction with the kids).

Early intervention for autistic kids is a great benefit, but when you have those gaming the system, it takes away valuable resources from those who really need it.

135 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:40:23am

re: #131 CyanSnowHawk

Now who’s spouting bullshit. 10 years ago the battle cry was “Mercury is poisoning our kids” and now that the mercury based preservative is no longer used, and autism rates haven’t dropped, they are scrambling to find another problem with teh ebil vaccines.

I encourage you to read what I’ve written, which is that it’s not about the vaccines. And I encourage you to lower the temperature, I’ve never been hostile or said anything about “spouting bullshit”.

136 shutdown  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:41:01am

re: #127 celticdragon

No studies are being done…deliberately. This according to a former head of the National Institute for Health which I cited above. Even if Thimerosal is not a causal factor, there is no good reason to put an insanely toxic substance (at rates far above government standards for other Mercury compounds!) in your medicine. If you want to play with that shit, be my guest. I’ll pass.

Whatever environmental factor that somehow interacts with genetic causality has not been positively identified…yet.

fda.gov

Even for the one or two vaccines in which Thimerosal is still used, there are alternatives. And the science contradicitng the link between vaccinations and autism is sound. Braying the contrary does not make it so. You also have to bear in mind that all vaccinations and medical procedures have an inherent level of risk. The point is, that the risk of adverse reaction is exponentially smaller than the risk of contracting disease.

137 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:41:14am

re: #120 nonic

Reagan was president from 1981 to 1989.

The Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act of 1980, which authorized the Attorney General to “seek relief for persons confined in public institutions where conditions exist that deprive residents of their constitutional rights” (i.e., move institutionalized persons out, mostly onto the street, and close down the facilities, which was pursued by the states to save money) was signed into law by Jimmy Carter.

It actually started in 1963 with a bill JFK signed. It just came to the public’s attention in the 1980s when cuts in social services and hangover from the economic crisis of the 70s made it obvious.

138 KansasMom  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:42:43am

re: #127 celticdragon

No studies are being done…deliberately. This according to a former head of the National Institute for Health which I cited above. Even if Thimerosal is not a causal factor, there is no good reason to put an insanely toxic substance (at rates far above government standards for other Mercury compounds!) in your medicine. If you want to play with that shit, be my guest. I’ll pass.

Whatever environmental factor that somehow interacts with genetic causality has not been positively identified…yet.

Guess what happens in countries like Guatemala, where vaccines may not be properly refrigerated? They lose effectivity, doctors give them to children anyway, and people falsly believe they and/or their children have resistance to certain diseases. (A lot of adoptive parents have the children tested for titers when they bring them home to the US, and its very common for the children show no built up immunity from their vaccinations.)
Without an effective preservative, there’s no point to the vaccine.

139 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:42:49am

re: #112 celticdragon

Better detection and classification?

Bullshit.

I think there’s been some evidence put forward that putting off having children till older ages, and especially the father being older, might be a contributing factor.

And let’s face it, much wider spread illicit drug use nowadays than before. Plus environmental pollutants to which people having babies today were exposed in their own infancy and childhood.

I hold that the early baby boom generation will present a much higher rate of cancers and probably other conditions caused by the various toxins that we commonly lived with in the environment prior to “Silent Spring.”

I remember as a kid, running and playing with other kids in the clouds of mosquito spray that trucks dispersed in our neighborhood. Not to mention all the artificial colors we ate. Others here have mentioned how we used to play with little balls of mercury.

It wasn’t until the 70’s and especially the 80’s that people started really worrying about the chemicals that kids were ingesting and breathing.

140 Pepper Fox  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:45:22am

While Wired is on the subject I’d love to hear some info on those manufactured viruses they are working on to kill bacteria like a Bacteriophage does.

141 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:45:59am

re: #122 SixDegrees

Far from bullshit. There are many doctors now claiming that kids are being overdiagnosed with autism, thanks to morons like Jenny McCarthy making it suddenly “fashionable” to have a child with the disease. Sadly, doctors are as prone to fads as anyone, and the always-nebulous definition of the disease feeds such misdiagnosis. It’s not as though there’s a definitive test that can be given.

But let’s assume, just for grins, that you’re correct, and autism cases are skyrocketing. That lets Thimerosal completley off the hook, since it hasn’t been used in vaccines administered to children since at least 2001.

Thimerosal is not the cause, that is pretty much settled. But your “fashionable” comment is extremely offensive. Sounds like the kind of thing Rush says.

142 GCM29  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:47:01am

Did anyone see Jon Stewart skewering Beck over the vaccine thing? Very funny.

143 shutdown  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:47:29am

re: #142 GCM29

Did anyone see Jon Stewart skewering Beck over the vaccine thing? Very funny.

Link please?

144 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:49:13am

re: #141 SeaMonkey

Thimerosal is not the cause, that is pretty much settled. But your “fashionable” comment is extremely offensive. Sounds like the kind of thing Rush says.

Seconded. Taking the pain, worry, problems, and non-stop work of a parent with an autistic child and trivializing it by calling it “fashionable” is very insensitive, and my guess is that SeaMonkey will reconsider that particular statement.

145 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:49:18am

If you want to know the true causes of some autisms, and the current state of real research and real science, this is an excellent lecture:
Where Are We with the Autisms?

Youtube Video
146 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:50:00am

re: #136 imp_62

[Link: www.fda.gov…]

Even for the one or two vaccines in which Thimerosal is still used, there are alternatives. And the science contradicitng the link between vaccinations and autism is sound. Braying the contrary does not make it so. You also have to bear in mind that all vaccinations and medical procedures have an inherent level of risk. The point is, that the risk of adverse reaction is exponentially smaller than the risk of contracting disease.

You set up a strawman. I did not “bray” anything of the sort. I pointed out that a reputable doctor and former head of the NIH is on the record saying that certain avenues of research into vaccines and possible autism linkage are being deliberately ignored and un-investigated.

The one thing that has me scratching my head here is that so many people are willing to slavishly defend and trust corporations who have shown no compunction at putting medicines on the market that kill (a lot) of people at times.

That being said…you really should get vaccinated for at least the most serious stuff, since Thimerosal has been removed.

147 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:50:02am

re: #144 cliffster

Seconded. Taking the pain, worry, problems, and non-stop work of a parent with an autistic child and trivializing it by calling it “fashionable” is very insensitive, and my guess is that SeaMonkey SixDegrees will reconsider that particular statement.

Apologies, SeaMonkey.

148 Liberal Classic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:50:04am

re: #114 celticdragon

Yep. One in ten thousand forty years ago to one in 100 today.

Show me the missing autistic adults. I’m sure there’s a peer reviewed study somewhere…

I can’t help but object. Your statements are far too alarmist for me. Particularly, when you said “No studies are being done…deliberately.” This assumes the rate of autism has in fact increased by a factor of 100 in the last fourty years and it implies a grand conspiracy within the medical establishment to conceal this fact. This borders on the paranoid.

There are many diseases that have increased by large margins since the early-to-mid twentieth century simply by virtue of more precise classification and more accurate detection. Furthermore, mental syndromes such as ADHD and Asperger’s are generally diagnosed by the presence of a certain number of symptoms among an available broad spectrum of possible symptoms. I suspect that ADHD and Asperger’s are somewhat overdiagnosed due to catching edge cases that would not have been noticed before. In the “bad old days” an autistic would have just been considered generically crazy, and a high-functioning Asperger’s would have been kind of a eccentric.

149 GCM29  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:51:16am

re: #143 imp_62

Sorry guys, I’m at work and have no access to YouTube or video…I saw it last night on Comedy Central…he was doing a bit about O’Reilly being the ‘sane’ guy on Fox News now and ran a clip of he and Beck discussing the pros and cons of the H1N1 vaccine, then Stewart did his own pro and con list. It was amusing, maybe someone else can grab a link since I’m under the thumb of the web filter over here.

150 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:51:44am

re: #146 celticdragon

What’s really happening with real science is in the lecture video I posted above.

151 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:51:51am

re: #129 lawhawk

The reason that smallpox vaccinations are no longer given to the general public is that the disease has been all but eradicated in the wild - there have been no outbreaks in decades. Two secured facilities still have the disease for research purposes, the CDC and its Russian counterpart.

I understand that what you summarize is the official position. My question is in response to 2 posters here (and thaey must be representative of some larger number in the general population) stating that their spouses were required to be innoculated against small pox in the fairly recent past before travel to Egypt and elsewhere in Africa.

If innoculation is required for anyone, then that presumes that it is POSSIBLE to contract the disease outside of a secure laboratory.

152 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:53:34am

Here’s another lecture that goes over the current data on prevalence of Autism

Youtube Video
153 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:53:55am

re: #134 lawhawk

From personal experience (and via those who work with autistic kids) that doctors will purposefully give autism spectrum disorder diagnoses to those who may not necessarily need the treatment in order to secure academic support services. It has nothing to do with the actual condition of the kid, but to game the system to get at resources that the parents (or doctors) think the kid needs (because it is more intensive service and interaction with the kids).

Early intervention for autistic kids is a great benefit, but when you have those gaming the system, it takes away valuable resources from those who really need it.

Seems like both sides think there’s a conspiracy. One side says overdiagnosis and denies that there’s an epidemic, while the other side says there’s an epidemic that’s deliberately being ignored. I think there’s an epidemic but not a conspiracy to cover it up. Just not enough people exposed to the issue.

Like global warming, autism is a problem that will have to be confronted eventually.

154 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:54:42am

re: #148 Liberal Classic

I can’t help but object. Your statements are far too alarmist for me. Particularly, when you said “No studies are being done…deliberately.” This assumes the rate of autism has in fact increased by a factor of 100 in the last fourty years and it implies a grand conspiracy within the medical establishment to conceal this fact. This borders on the paranoid.

There are many diseases that have increased by large margins since the early-to-mid twentieth century simply by virtue of more precise classification and more accurate detection. Furthermore, mental syndromes such as ADHD and Asperger’s are generally diagnosed by the presence of a certain number of symptoms among an available broad spectrum of possible symptoms. I suspect that ADHD and Asperger’s are somewhat overdiagnosed due to catching edge cases that would not have been noticed before. In the “bad old days” an autistic would have just been considered generically crazy, and a high-functioning Asperger’s would have been kind of a eccentric.

Alarmist? Paranoid?

Money talks.

I cited the quote above, and I shall show it again.

Dr. Bernadine Healy is the former head of the National Institutes of Health, and the most well-known medical voice yet to break with her colleagues on the vaccine-autism question.

In an exclusive interview with CBS News, Healy said the question is still open.

“I think that the public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as irrational,” Healy said.

Healy goes on to say public health officials have intentionally avoided researching whether subsets of children are “susceptible” to vaccine side effects - afraid the answer will scare the public.

“You’re saying that public health officials have turned their back on a viable area of research largely because they’re afraid of what might be found?” Attkisson asked.

Healy said: “There is a completely expressed concern that they don’t want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. “First of all,” Healy said, “I think the public’s smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show.”

As an example, Healy points to the existing vaccine court claims.

CBS News has learned the government has paid more than 1,300 brain injury claims in vaccine court since 1988, but is not studying those cases or tracking how many of them resulted in autism.

The branch of the government that handles vaccine court told CBS News: “Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries…may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.”

“What we’re seeing in the bulk of the population: vaccines are safe,” said Healy. “But there may be this susceptible group. The fact that there is concern, that you don’t want to know that susceptible group is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion that there is a susceptible group… what can I say?”


cbsnews.com

155 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:54:56am
Until recently, best estimates of the prevalence for autism spectrum disorders were 5 per 10,000 for autism and 20 per 10,000 for the broader spectrum. Reports now suggest that the prevalence is considerably higher. Increased recognition, the broadening of the diagnostic concept over time and methodological differences across studies may account for most or all of the apparent increase but other explanations cannot be ruled out. Tony Charman discusses whether there is a ‘real’ increase and highlights some directions for future epidemiological work.

This is the descriptor for the video posted just above.

156 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:55:50am

re: #155 Thanos

Thanks for these videos.

157 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:56:13am

re: #134 lawhawk

From personal experience (and via those who work with autistic kids) that doctors will purposefully give autism spectrum disorder diagnoses to those who may not necessarily need the treatment in order to secure academic support services. It has nothing to do with the actual condition of the kid, but to game the system to get at resources that the parents (or doctors) think the kid needs (because it is more intensive service and interaction with the kids).

Early intervention for autistic kids is a great benefit, but when you have those gaming the system, it takes away valuable resources from those who really need it.

Agreed on your last point, but I have a hard time believing that doctors would overdiagnose autism over concern for the kid, considering that many insurance companies have an autism clause in the policy where they don’t have to pay for autism-related treatments.

158 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 7:59:09am

re: #130 funky chicken

Because we don’t all go thrashing through the African jungle?

Persons infected with any disease can carry it to another location on a plane or boat.

We don’t routinely vaccinate against rabies either, but the CDC recommends rabies vaccinations for folks who travel to some areas where rabies is endemic.

NOBODY gets rabies vaccine unless they have had known contact with an animal that is known to be or might be rabid.

You got a smallpox vaccine, so you’re fine.

Actually, there is question as to whether innoculation 60 years ago is still protective. But that’s not really the point. I am looking at the question from an epidemiological point of view, not personal.

I’m sure some big city health departments still have smallpox vaccine available if you want to seek it out.

I’m sure they DON’T.

159 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:02:04am

re: #158 nonic

Actually, your second point is false. You can get rabies vaccines if you are traveling to a country that has a big rabies problem. Look at the CDC website.

160 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:04:38am

re: #152 Thanos

A bit over long, at 55 minutes. I’ll have to finish it later.

161 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:06:11am

This is a great CBC documentary on the Dissapearing Male (talking about declining fertility rates) and the chemical soup we live in from cradle to grave. It does not specifically discuss autism, but I think it bears consideration, especially considering the inscrease in cases.

cbc.ca

162 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:07:04am

re: #159 funky chicken

Actually, your second point is false. You can get rabies vaccines if you are traveling to a country that has a big rabies problem. Look at the CDC website.

I checked it. You’re right on that.

163 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:07:21am

re: #159 funky chicken

Actually, your second point is false. You can get rabies vaccines if you are traveling to a country that has a big rabies problem. Look at the CDC website.

The treatment sucks, from what I understand. The shots are said to be very painful.

That still beats getting symptomatic rabies of course, which is like 99.9999% fatal. (I know of one case…a little Mexican girl…who has actually survived rabies)

164 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:09:09am

Semi-OT but appropriate on a health care thread. Wesley J. Smith reminds us what government-run care actually means. This should make you forget any illusions that Obamacare will produce good results:

Hazardous Pathway

165 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:10:38am

re: #60 theliel

“When did they stop teaching critical thinking in schools?”“

About when public schools got tied up with Corporate America. You don’t need a whole lot of critical thinking to work an assembly line or alot of other manufacturing jobs, and that’s what the schools (espeically around MI way) were designed to produce - well read (for the times), coherent (speaking english and ‘americanized’) literate biological cogs for the industral machine.

Pretty good compact when it was signed back in the teens and twenties. Henry Ford had an Idea what a ‘good american’ looked like, and some of it was pretty positive and I’m glad that the progressives of the time found common cause to make things alot better for alot of people, but, y’know…the old girl is showing her age.

“Zero Tolerance” policies and other ridiculousness (a result of the War on Common Sense) only make things worse at an institutional level - they teach critical thinking, but mostly how to either avoid authority or corrupt the system for personal gain.

Damn! That is one hell of good post for one so new here!

166 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:10:58am

re: #163 celticdragon

The treatment sucks, from what I understand. The shots are said to be very painful.

That still beats getting symptomatic rabies of course, which is like 99.9999% fatal. (I know of one case…a little Mexican girl…who has actually survived rabies)

I know of a second such case. A bunch of dumb teenagers were playing with a rabid bat. At least 3 developed rabies, 1 of those who developed the symptoms survived.

167 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:12:24am

re: #157 cliffster

168 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:13:05am

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

You do know that everybody and Obama have clearly stated that they do not propose UK-style government run health care, but instead a public option along side to the already existing plans? Or do you believe that this is some kind of “slippery slope”?

169 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:14:03am

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

Except that no one is suggesting we recreate the British system here. Countries using a more hybrid approach have better results:

Plenty of countries get healthcare right

170 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:14:48am

re: #168 suchislife

sorry, I just saw the end of that article. Will read carefully!

171 KansasMom  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:15:14am

re: #159 funky chicken

Actually, your second point is false. You can get rabies vaccines if you are traveling to a country that has a big rabies problem. Look at the CDC website.

Anyone who works at a humane society or animal shelter in the US is vaccinated. The vaccine is kept in stock at our local health department. Its expensive, which is probably why it isn’t more common.

172 wiffersnapper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:16:00am

Holy cow what a marvelous read. Good find!

173 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:16:29am

re: #168 suchislife

This is the same sort of “death panel” nonsense that the GOP was pushing earlier that got downdinged rather quickly.

174 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:17:14am

SMALLPOX

Apparently the government is NOT as sanquine about this deadly disease as it used to be. emergency.cdc.gov

Now that we have an entire population age 35 and under who have no immunity.

175 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:17:14am

re: #169 PT Barnum

Except that no one is suggesting we recreate the British system here. Countries using a more hybrid approach have better results:

Plenty of countries get healthcare right

I have no faith in Barack Obama and the Dems ability to “get it right”. Their mains interests are not quality and cost of care, but pork and control.

176 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:18:05am

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

Can you back that up with anything other than your own suspicions?

177 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:18:35am

re: #173 PT Barnum

This is the same sort of “death panel” nonsense that the GOP was pushing earlier that got downdinged rather quickly.

What else could you call NICE after they pushed the Liverpool Care Pathway other than a Death Panel? That’s certainly the effect of their decision.

178 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:19:04am

re: #173 PT Barnum

This is the same sort of “death panel” nonsense that the GOP was pushing earlier that got downdinged rather quickly.

C’mon -reservations about the long-term viability of a competitive environment in which the State or some beneficiary or agent thereof is a player is NOT the same thing as suggesting that Government agents will come to the hospital and hold a pillow over granny’s face.

179 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:19:31am

re: #168 suchislife

You do know that everybody and Obama have clearly stated that they do not propose UK-style government run health care, but instead a public option along side to the already existing plans? Or do you believe that this is some kind of “slippery slope”?

I can actually state for the record that the best health care our family has ever received was medicare. Hands down…the government care was far and away superior to the bullshit we had from HMO’s.

The bills were actually paid, prescriptions were 3 bucks and no questions asked. We actually had to declare bankruptcy from all the unpaid medical bills from previous “coverage”…which covered nothing. One hospital ER visit alone for my spouse was more then all our credit card bill put together. It came to more then 5,000 dollars. Uncovered.

Our son is still on government medicare, and I will keep him there as long as I can. It beats the hell out of what we get from BCBS through my spouse’s job at Walgreens.

180 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:23:00am

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Ok, I read it now and I’m not at all convinced. Since there cannot be enough money for everything and anyone, there will always be people deciding who gets what.
Right now we have bureaucrats in insurance companies making medical choices based on their profit expectations, and I can show you a thousand horror stories about that, starting with that baby last week who was refused because he was to “fat”. So what would you suggest be done about that?

And I just realized, your article is subtitled “the road to euthanasia”. And they talk about panels at the end. So now I believe this to be a death panel propaganda piece, sorry.

181 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:23:51am

re: #176 PT Barnum

Can you back that up with anything other than your own suspicions?

When has either Obama or the lead Dems proposal any thing that did not rely on Government as its driving force?

It is their faith in government that is the foundation of my suspicion. That, and the admitted fact that I am a member of the other party.

182 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:24:03am

re: #178 Guanxi88

Except that wasn’t the gist of the article. The article implied that people would be let die because of care decisions made based on efficacy.

Death Panel…pure and simple. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Frankly, the government being involved can’t be any worse than the care coordination done by the for-profit companies now. If they won’t pay for treatment, and you can’t afford it, you don’t get it, regardless of whether it might apply in your specific case.

I’m in support of tougher regulation myself, but I question whether the insurance companies won’t be able to weaken the regulation enough to result in little or no change to the system we have now.

183 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:24:12am

re: #173 PT Barnum

Only just realized it. I have to learn to see if it’s worth engaging quicker.

184 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:24:30am

I’m a doctor. In the old days (last year) I would call or email my commercial supplier, order Seasonal vaccine, and it would be delivered. Then I gave it to patients, who paid me for it. Some diverted their responsibility to pay to slippery insurance companies, but usually, the whole thing worked pretty well. The Flu disease rate in my practice was miniscule.

This year, I have spent countless hours signing up for Government issued vaccine. Only Govt vax is available for H1N1. Commercial Seasonal Flu vax ran out when the H1N1 production took over, they told me. So there’s a shortage of that, too.
Plenty of pre-registration numbers, 8 page downloads that have to be printed and faxed someplace, 800 numbers. I was designated a day to call for a Vaccine order but the phone was busy all day. No vaccine.
BTW, if I get it, I can’t charge for it, and I need a designated refrigerator for storage, too (italics theirs.)
Do you see where this is going?

185 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:26:08am

re: #184 FightingBack

I’m a doctor. In the old days (last year) I would call or email my commercial supplier, order Seasonal vaccine, and it would be delivered. Then I gave it to patients, who paid me for it. Some diverted their responsibility to pay to slippery insurance companies, but usually, the whole thing worked pretty well. The Flu disease rate in my practice was miniscule.

This year, I have spent countless hours signing up for Government issued vaccine. Only Govt vax is available for H1N1. Commercial Seasonal Flu vax ran out when the H1N1 production took over, they told me. So there’s a shortage of that, too.
Plenty of pre-registration numbers, 8 page downloads that have to be printed and faxed someplace, 800 numbers. I was designated a day to call for a Vaccine order but the phone was busy all day. No vaccine.
BTW, if I get it, I can’t charge for it, and I need a designated refrigerator for storage, too (italics theirs.)
Do you see where this is going?

Tell me, where it it going?

186 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:26:43am

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

When has either Obama or the lead Dems proposal any thing that did not rely on Government as its driving force?

It is their faith in government that is the foundation of my suspicion. That, and the admitted fact that I am a member of the other party.

The major difference between us is that I trust private enterprise even less than I do the government. Having worked in corporate America for a good 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that any large organization is prone to making stupid decisions. The difference is that I potentially have more influence on government than I do on a corporation.

187 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:27:47am

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

I know of a second such case. A bunch of dumb teenagers were playing with a rabid bat. At least 3 developed rabies, 1 of those who developed the symptoms survived.

GAH. We have bats in our neighborhood, which makes me want to find a travel health clinic and tell them that we plan to be “adventure travellers” for an extended time in, er, Albania.

wwwnc.cdc.gov

I’m not sure how they’d react when I tried to refuse the typhoid shots though :-).

188 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:28:18am

re: #184 FightingBack

It certainly at least means more employment for government workers. Which means happier unions.

So, what’s wrong with this, exactly? /

189 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:28:33am

re: #186 PT Barnum

The major difference between us is that I trust private enterprise even less than I do the government. Having worked in corporate America for a good 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that any large organization is prone to making stupid decisions. The difference is that I potentially have more influence on government than I do on a corporation.

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I disagree, vehemently.

190 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:28:34am

re: #182 PT Barnum

Except that wasn’t the gist of the article. The article implied that people would be let die because of care decisions made based on efficacy.

Death Panel…pure and simple. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Frankly, the government being involved can’t be any worse than the care coordination done by the for-profit companies now. If they won’t pay for treatment, and you can’t afford it, you don’t get it, regardless of whether it might apply in your specific case.

I’m in support of tougher regulation myself, but I question whether the insurance companies won’t be able to weaken the regulation enough to result in little or no change to the system we have now.

I was referencing the discussion of th “public option.” The only “death panelling” I’ve ever seen was that brown stuff my grandfather hung up on the walls in his basement, and I doubt we’ll see anything worse here for a long time.

I think the public option has the effect of ultimately reducing competition among insurers. If there is a last-resort, gotta-take you insurance provider whose very existence is to be funded (in some, not all versions of the bills) by fines and penalties levied against employers who drop insurance coverage for their workers, then why wouldn’t we expect to see more and more people converted to the public option.

Secondly, if medical care and insurance is so very important that we must all have it, how can it be so valueless as to not be worth a profit?

191 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:30:50am

re: #185 nonic
Everyone will be entitled to something, but it won’t be there. And, since the delivery system will fail, even folks who have means to pay directly won’t have anyone to pay. All that good stuff that you expect from your doctor? Knowing your name? Having your best interest at heart? Will soon vanish, and a series of bureaucratic hurdles will take up all the time.
So you think that an “appointment system” can be maintained under government run care?

192 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:31:29am

re: #186 PT Barnum


Also, I find it utterly ridiculous to completely discount the actual intent to help, as opposed to making money. And I’m always surprised how many people state that this intention will actually make you less efficient and more harmful. Is that how they live there lives? There’s a place for profit as a motivation, and a place for solidarity. Any Dem knows this.

193 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:31:49am

re: #190 Guanxi88

It’s not a matter of being valueless, it’s a matter of being priceless.

How do you put a price on someone’s life? Isn’t that what having a profit motive in healthcare results in?

194 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:33:38am

re: #186 PT Barnum

The major difference between us is that I trust private enterprise even less than I do the government. Having worked in corporate America for a good 15 years, I have come to the conclusion that any large organization is prone to making stupid decisions. The difference is that I potentially have more influence on government than I do on a corporation.

Stupid or dangerous decisions.

I got badly fucked over when I was injured on the job…and I don’t trust a corporation to act in a moral or responsible way any more than I could pick up the building it is headquartered in.

The free market is not a moral agent.

If it is profitable to do business in a way that leads to people being denied care and dying as a result, then the market will reward that. Similarly, the market rewards drug dealers so long as it is profitable to smuggle and deal drugs. The market is only about results…not right and wrong.

We need to incentivize “right” behaviors and force insurers to actually insure their customers.

I’d start with banning the practice of rescission.

195 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:33:45am

re: #193 PT Barnum

It’s not a matter of being valueless, it’s a matter of being priceless.

How do you put a price on someone’s life? Isn’t that what having a profit motive in healthcare results in?

You have to put a price on it. The doctor has a right to earn a living for the services he provides, provision of which is tremendously expensive.

Again, what’s wrong with profit? Shall we disparage profit-taking in the food business?

196 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:35:11am

re: #189 Dark_Falcon

Which part do you disagree with? Do you think that you have a better chance to assure that a large company will heed your interests then the government?

197 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:36:03am

re: #196 suchislife

Which part do you disagree with? Do you think that you have a better chance to assure that a large company will heed your interests then the government?

At least in principle, one can decline to send money to a given corporation. Trying to withhold funds or boycott a government is a little more difficult.

198 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:36:34am

re: #192 suchislife

The problem is that any discussion of this topic quickly degenerates into people blurring the difference between how care is provided and how it is paid for. There is a difference.

A public option solely affects how care is paid for. Not how it is provided. If your rebuttal is “but how care is paid for affects how it is provided” then the private insurance industry isn’t any better, as the profit motive leads to care being denied not because of lack of efficacy, but because it will affect the profit margins of the company providing coverage.

A public option is not government run healthcare. The most apropos description would be government run insurance. Big difference.

199 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:36:37am

re: #197 Guanxi88

True. So you believe in boycotts?

200 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:38:08am

re: #191 FightingBack

Everyone will be entitled to something, but it won’t be there. And, since the delivery system will fail, even folks who have means to pay directly won’t have anyone to pay. All that good stuff that you expect from your doctor? Knowing your name? Having your best interest at heart? Will soon vanish, and a series of bureaucratic hurdles will take up all the time.
So you think that an “appointment system” can be maintained under government run care?

The bureaucratic hurdles from our present insurance (which we have no choice about, since we can’t buy insurance any other way) have made it utterly unworkable.

5 years in, and we still can’t get a straight answer what our goddamned co pay even is! Seriously. We don’t know. Neither do our health providers. None of them have been able to get answers on the BCBS phone lines.

We just pay something up front and wait for the bill.

201 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:38:13am

re: #199 suchislife

True. So you believe in boycotts?

Yes, I’ve seen them used as a tactic to influence corporate behavior, and, as they are representative of the attempt to voluntarily persuade others to do business elsewhere, I think them well within the best traditions of a free people.

202 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:39:07am

re: #191 FightingBack

Everyone will be entitled to something, but it won’t be there. And, since the delivery system will fail, even folks who have means to pay directly won’t have anyone to pay. All that good stuff that you expect from your doctor? Knowing your name? Having your best interest at heart? Will soon vanish, and a series of bureaucratic hurdles will take up all the time.
So you think that an “appointment system” can be maintained under government run care?

Sadly. None of this surprises me. I’m glad I raised my kids in a different era. I’m sorry for them now. :-(

203 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:39:43am

re: #195 Guanxi88

But we’re not talking about the doctor, we’re talking about the insurance company. Trying to confuse the two is one of the favorite tactics of those who oppose health care reform. They are two different issues.

Frankly, I’d like to see two changes:

1) Outlawing recission.
2) Paying by outcome rather than by procedure.
3) Offering doctors bonuses based on achieving measurable goals (infection rates, re-hospitalization, etc)

204 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:39:56am

re: #200 celticdragon

Your Insurance Carrier is supervised by the State Insurance Commissioner.
How’s that working out for you?

205 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:40:20am

re: #198 PT Barnum

Preaching to the choir! :-) But really, a lot of people don’t get the difference between voter fraud and voter registration fraud, so I never really try to make this distinction. I stick with the fact that the only proposal on the table (and almost off it by now) is a supplement to the current situation.

206 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:40:47am

re: #196 suchislife

Which part do you disagree with? Do you think that you have a better chance to assure that a large company will heed your interests then the government?

I think that neither will heed my interests. I don’t trust anyone on that score other than the people I personally know and trust. Companies simply tend to be motivated by profit and thus less likely to make a push for pure power. They are also less altruistic, which means more reliable. And finally, corporations don’t have the right to use force as a general rule. But as I’ve said, I don’t really trust either party. I think that I’ll get hosed either way and I’ve just learned to accept that.

207 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:41:03am

re: #203 PT Barnum

But we’re not talking about the doctor, we’re talking about the insurance company. Trying to confuse the two is one of the favorite tactics of those who oppose health care reform. They are two different issues.

Frankly, I’d like to see two changes:

1) Outlawing recission.
2) Paying by outcome rather than by procedure.
3) Offering doctors bonuses based on achieving measurable goals (infection rates, re-hospitalization, etc)

Payment mechanisms are valuable, and those who provide them must turn a profit, or else why bother in so complicated a field.

As to the changes proposed, 1 & 3 seem like sound common sense to me; payment by outcome I’m a bit leary of - sometimes, things just don’t work.

208 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:42:26am

re: #203 PT Barnum

But we’re not talking about the doctor, we’re talking about the insurance company. Trying to confuse the two is one of the favorite tactics of those who oppose health care reform. They are two different issues.

Frankly, I’d like to see two changes:

1) Outlawing recission.
2) Paying by outcome rather than by procedure.
3) Offering doctors bonuses based on achieving measurable goals (infection rates, re-hospitalization, etc)

I’d certainly favor the second two. I would still allow recission in the event that the insured had concealed information from the insurer.

209 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:42:33am

re: #191 FightingBack

Everyone will be entitled to something, but it won’t be there. And, since the delivery system will fail, even folks who have means to pay directly won’t have anyone to pay. All that good stuff that you expect from your doctor? Knowing your name? Having your best interest at heart? Will soon vanish, and a series of bureaucratic hurdles will take up all the time.
So you think that an “appointment system” can be maintained under government run care?

As someone who has lived in many different countries that have some kind of universal health care, your answer is YES. Only in the US have I had to negotiate with a 3rd party to secure my care.

210 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:43:11am

re: #207 Guanxi88

Payment mechanisms are valuable, and those who provide them must turn a profit, or else why bother in so complicated a field.

As to the changes proposed, 1 & 3 seem like sound common sense to me; payment by outcome I’m a bit leary of - sometimes, things just don’t work.

Good point. Point 2 would require careful study and planning.

211 gegenkritik  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:43:34am

Dunno if it was mentioned here already, but Anti-vaccination-propaganda has a long and dark history.
Here you can see a “caricature” from the Nazi-newspaper “Der Stürmer”.
The caption: “Es ist mir sonderbar zu Mut, denn Gift und Jud’ tut selten gut”. (rougly translated: “I am feeling dizzy, cause poison and Jew does seldom good”)

You can read more about Julius Streicher’s (the editor of “Der Stürmer”) anti-jewish/anti-vaccination-propaganda here:

Now we know why the Jew uses every artifice of seduction in order to ravish German girls at as early an age as possible; why the Jewish doctor rapes his patients while they were under anaesthetic. He wants the German girl and the German woman to absorb the alien sperm of the Jew. She is never again to bear German children. But the blood products of all animals right down to the bacteria like the serum, lymph, extracts from internal organs etc., are all alien albumen. They have a poisonous effect if directly introduced into the blood stream either by vaccination or by injection. By these products of sick animals the blood is ravished, the Aryan is impregnated with an alien species.

Now one can argue, that Bill Maher and other Anti-vaccination-freaks are clearly no anti-Semites, but just anti-science-idiots.
Though, their argumentation is deeply rooted into the tradition of anti-Enlightenment, leading back to the world of myth, and the irrational fears of obscurantists poisoning the people is not only harmful because of people dying of preventable diseases.

212 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:43:36am

re: #191 FightingBack

Everyone will be entitled to something, but it won’t be there. And, since the delivery system will fail, even folks who have means to pay directly won’t have anyone to pay. All that good stuff that you expect from your doctor? Knowing your name? Having your best interest at heart? Will soon vanish, and a series of bureaucratic hurdles will take up all the time.
So you think that an “appointment system” can be maintained under government run care?

And in addition to all this, there will be

true

“rationing.” Not as now that you might not be able to have it if you can’t afford it —- but regardless of whether you can afford it, you can’t have it because the government says so.

213 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:43:57am

re: #207 Guanxi88

Exactly why we need to get the profit margin out of the payment mechanism. Payment mechanisms are complicated precisely because of the profit margin, which must make sure that it is protected over the actual providing of care.

I do work for a couple of doctors. Both have people whose sole job it is to navigate the insurance maze so they can get paid for the procedures they complete.

Pay by procedure is just asking for abuse.

214 Soundboard Fez  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:44:12am

re: #203 PT Barnum

But we’re not talking about the doctor, we’re talking about the insurance company. Trying to confuse the two is one of the favorite tactics of those who oppose health care reform. They are two different issues.

Frankly, I’d like to see two changes:

1) Outlawing recission.
2) Paying by outcome rather than by procedure.
3) Offering doctors bonuses based on achieving measurable goals (infection rates, re-hospitalization, etc)

Re 2 and 3:

Who would take on high-risk cases? Or serve in public urban or very rural hospitals?

215 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:44:28am

re: #201 Guanxi88

Hmm, yes and sometimes people vote, and elections have consequences. That happens a lot more then companies caving in to consumers.
Do you believe in democracy, i.e. a government that is (by and large) accountable to the population and works in their best interest? If not, do you believe that such a thing cannot be, or merely that we don’t have it right now?

216 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:45:22am

re: #207 Guanxi88

Re-hospitalization rates are affected by socio-economic conditions (care in the home.) Why should that affect a doctor’s salary?
We’ll soon learn to avoid high risk patients…

217 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:47:03am

re: #204 FightingBack

Your Insurance Carrier is supervised by the State Insurance Commissioner.
How’s that working out for you?

It’s a private company that does what the hell it wants to do. I’m sure it operates within the letter of the law. It just doesn’t have to give a damn about the patients since the patients are not “customers”.

The employer is the customer, and the employer (Walgreens, in this case) buys as little insurance as they can get away with. The employee is not a factor, since they don’t expect you to stick around more then two years anyway.

Sorry, but I can definitely say that we had far better treatment from medicare (after I was injured on the job and had to have surgery, my employer “locked” me out and the VP of Human Resources actually told me to go apply for food stamps and other aid. I have never forgiven them for that.)

218 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:47:33am

re: #198 PT Barnum

“Government run healthcare” is when the government decides what treatments are allowed based on studies of general population efficacy and cost benefit.

219 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:48:04am

re: #216 FightingBack

There are ways to address in home care in order to reduce rehospitalization. Patient care coordinators are one solution being used with great success in some areas. These people act as the patient advocate and are the information clearing house for the patients care, coordinating between doctor, pharmacy and the patient.

Ensuring that patients are following home care regimins, making follow up appointments etc, is a much cheaper alternative than rehospitalization, etc. especially with older patients.

220 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:48:33am

re: #209 spoosmith

“Other” countries depend on the USA for innovative progress.
Soon, no clear thinking American kid will enter Med School.

221 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:49:05am

re: #218 nonic

How is that different from what the insurance companies are doing now, other than that a profit motive isn’t involved?

222 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:50:09am

re: #217 celticdragon

Those laws are Government Laws. The Insurance Commission could see that the company provides proper re-imbursement, or no license. That’s what your government has done for you.

223 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:50:10am

re: #220 FightingBack

You’re assuming that the only reason people become doctors is to make money.

224 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:50:33am

re: #218 nonic

“Government run healthcare” is when the government decides what treatments are allowed based on studies of general population efficacy and cost benefit.

Kinda like when your insurance company says they won’t pay for your kid to get the medicine he/she needs because their actuarial tables add up to that it is cheaper to let your kid die and absorb the cost of your lawsuit then to pay for the treatment over x number of years.

225 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:50:57am

re: #222 FightingBack

Except that the laws are written with much input from lobbyists for the very companies being regulated.

226 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:51:38am

re: #222 FightingBack

Those laws are Government Laws. The Insurance Commission could see that the company provides proper re-imbursement, or no license. That’s what your government has done for you.

That is free enterprise, I thought.

The government lets businesses to what they do and the unseen hand of the market punches you in the gut…or something like that.

227 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:52:01am

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

I’m wondering if this might not be a difference in what to focus on and rhetoric mostly. I mean, I strongly believe that the government will always try to amass and abuse power, if left unchecked. For me, the Patriot Act is an example of this. And I’m sure you believe that elections actually mean something, and that we must try to hold government accoutable. I do that by holding it up to a certain standard. Maybe you do it by mistrusting it.

228 funky chicken  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:52:20am

re: #200 celticdragon

The bureaucratic hurdles from our present insurance (which we have no choice about, since we can’t buy insurance any other way) have made it utterly unworkable.

5 years in, and we still can’t get a straight answer what our goddamned co pay even is! Seriously. We don’t know. Neither do our health providers. None of them have been able to get answers on the BCBS phone lines.

We just pay something up front and wait for the bill.

We have Tri-Care, and, sadly, that sounds about right. It can be tough to find providers who still accept new Tri-Care patients, kinda like we’re medicaid folks.

I don’t think we could be dumped from the coverage though. The one thing Tri-Care can force—they can make us travel to regional military hospitals if we get diagnosed with anything serious. We had a neighbor in New Jersey who had to go to Walter Reed for a mastectomy, and managing her follow-up care was difficult.

One reason I’m pessimistic about a public option in this country is that your standard civilian patient would SCREAM to high heaven at that kind of requirement, and would get all kinds of sympathetic coverage in the media about such an outrageous outrage. Just look at what the Malkinites/Hannityites/BobbyRushites did to Michelle Obama because the private hospital that employed her tried to direct indigent patients to public facilities in the area.

People on the public option will have to have “equal” coverage with everybody else, or there will be massive screaming about abusing the “poor” by “forcing” them to use public hospitals…never mind that US public hospitals are better than pretty much any other nation’s hospitals anywhere else in the world.

I’m not optimistic, like I said.

229 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:52:26am

I’ve got to get to work. I let time get away from me. BBT

230 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:53:33am

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

I’ve got to get to work. I let time get away from me. BBT

See you later :)

231 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:54:05am

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

later…

232 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:54:07am

re: #228 funky chicken

I’m not optimistic either.

233 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:54:38am

re: #215 suchislife


Do you believe in democracy, i.e. a government that is (by and large) accountable to the population and works in their best interest? If not, do you believe that such a thing cannot be, or merely that we don’t have it right now?

Ya know, I waver a bit on democracy, truth be told. I have grace reservations about the cycle of regimes, noted by Aristotle and others, and the way democratic governments nearly always devolve into Caeasarism, civil war, and anarchy. They’re inherently unstable - but then again, anything dealing with humans is, as this is our nature. I do think the state ought to be accountable to its people, however, and that the greatest opportunity for human excellence of all types is found in democratic regimes and peoples.

I suppose my position is a sort of default libertarianism, as I generally have little to no problem with most people’s decisions. I may question their wisdom, but so long as it doesn’t cost me anything, and isn’t obviously and immediately harmful to others, I don’t think any official action is required.

In general, I am opposed to any new law or legislation, save those which remove existing laws from the books; consequently, I’m inclined to oppose any proposed legislation, irrespective of source or reasons for it being put forward. We’ve got enough damned laws and regulations to deal with already, and I don’t see that adding any more would make anything any better for anyone but our professional leadership class.

234 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:56:26am

re: #233 Guanxi88

Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others.

235 PT Barnum  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:57:08am

that being said, I gotta go.

236 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:57:52am

re: #234 PT Barnum

Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others.

Pretty much. My Hobbesian pessimism does get the better of me at times.

237 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:58:18am

re: #235 PT Barnum

Same here. Homework to do.

238 FightingBack  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:58:19am

re: #232 celticdragon

I’m not optimistic either.

Me neither. Off to the Hospital now.
Thanks, all !

239 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 8:58:47am

re: #128 cliffster

It’s very important to understand that nobody is saying Thimerisol is entirely to blame. It’s not even a big line item in the concerns. I’ve said it earlier in the article but the concern is general toxins in the environment. Thimerisol is only one very small piece of the puzzle, and I don’t even think it necessarily is a factor at all - just needs more study like all the rest of the theory.

If you want to lobby for research on other causes, fine. We would all love to know what combination of things can trigger autism.

But why the HELL should we waste our finite research resources on Thimerisol? Vaccines for children haven’t included it for several years, with NO corresponding drop in autism rates. That’s plenty of evidence that Thimerisol is NOT involved. Nattering on and on about it makes you sound nutty and unable to accept evidence.

“needs more study”?!? What a freaking waste that would be. Let’s study something that hasn’t already been ruled out.

240 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:04:24am

re: #233 Guanxi88

re: #233 Guanxi88

Ya know, I waver a bit on democracy, truth be told. I have grace reservations about the cycle of regimes, noted by Aristotle and others, and the way democratic governments nearly always devolve into Caeasarism, civil war, and anarchy. They’re inherently unstable - but then again, anything dealing with humans is, as this is our nature. I do think the state ought to be accountable to its people, however, and that the greatest opportunity for human excellence of all types is found in democratic regimes and peoples.

I’m not sure the historic argument holds much water. Some things repeat themselves, but I believe to sustain democracy, you need a solidly educated population, a large middle class and no external threats. Obviously, these conditions never existed before. Still, I do think democracy scepticism is understable. You know, I wish I could recommend you some books or articles about lefty democracy scepticism. And not the weird kind. ( It’s not a position I agree with, though.) But there’s to wide a gulf, right?


In general, I am opposed to any new law or legislation, save those which remove existing laws from the books; consequently, I’m inclined to oppose any proposed legislation, irrespective of source or reasons for it being put forward. We’ve got enough damned laws and regulations to deal with already, and I don’t see that adding any more would make anything any better for anyone but our professional leadership class.

I agree that there are a lot of unnecessary laws. But I would never frame this as a primarily quantitative issue.

241 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:05:13am

re: #221 PT Barnum

How is that different from what the insurance companies are doing now, other than that a profit motive isn’t involved?

“Government run healthcare” is when the government decides what treatments are ALLOWED based on studies of general population efficacy and cost benefit.

Your insurance company can say they will not pay for something, but they don’t tell you that you cannot HAVE the treatment if you pay for it yourself or can find other funding (charity, for instance).

In the UK right now, and elsewhere, government run programs decide whether you can HAVE a treatment, regardless of who might be paying for it. After a certain age, or with certain other co-existing conditions, the patient is simply prohibited from some life-saving treatments.

And with the Liverpool Pathway (?), that life-saving treatment includes food and water.

Just recently I was reading how this applies to premature births in UK and Europe versus the USA. In the United States there are no prohibitions against doctors attempting to save and treat any premature baby regardless of gestational age.

In the UK and EU countries, babies born less than x-number weeks gestation, or weighing less than x-ounces, or measuring less than x-inches are not considered “live births” and are forbidden treatment.

In addition to saving money, this keeps the official infant mortality rates down, since these babies were not “live births” but are called miscarriages instead.

And any baby, regardless of gestational age, size or weight, who dies within the first 24 hours is also classified as not a “live birth.”

242 PatriotLizardoid  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:05:47am

Thanks for this. I am sending it to some anti-vaccination people I work with, hoping they will get their young children vaccinated (doubt it). My kids are on the waiting list for 1st week of Nov.

Till then, keep up the hand washing!

243 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:07:51am

re: #151 nonic

I understand that what you summarize is the official position. My question is in response to 2 posters here (and thaey must be representative of some larger number in the general population) stating that their spouses were required to be innoculated against small pox in the fairly recent past before travel to Egypt and elsewhere in Africa.

If innoculation is required for anyone, then that presumes that it is POSSIBLE to contract the disease outside of a secure laboratory.

If the fear of a small pox outbreak is related to a possible release, accidentally or intentionally, of the bug by terrorists, what travel (or deployment for the military) destinations do you think would be high on the list for requiring a small pox vaccination?

244 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:09:17am

re: #241 nonic

Ok, I’m no expert on UK policies, but I strongly doubt they forbid that people pay for extra treatment themselves. That doesn’t make any sense. And I know it’s not true for other countries that have universal health care. At any rate, you cannot seriously believe that anyone is proposing this, or that it would ever pass concress.

245 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:10:15am

re: #223 PT Barnum

You’re assuming that the only reason people become doctors is to make money.

Everybody needs to make a living. And new doctors now typically come out of medical school with $250,000 in education debt.

My sons are lawyers with $100,000 debt. I promise you they would not have taken on that burden if being a lawyer was going to pay so little that they couldn’t service their loans and still live some modest standard.

246 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:13:27am

re: #224 celticdragon

Kinda like when your insurance company says they won’t pay for your kid to get the medicine he/she needs because their actuarial tables add up to that it is cheaper to let your kid die and absorb the cost of your lawsuit then to pay for the treatment over x number of years.

Your insurance company likely will also not pay for your kid to have a nose job or breast enhancement. That is not the same thing as saying she is not allowed to HAVE the cosmetic surgery.

247 Liberal Classic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:18:15am

re: #154 celticdragon

I searched for Bernadine Healy and found several credible sources that are highly critical of her:

Of course, the antivaccine movement is thoroughly smitten with Dr. Healy, I first started to notice it last year as they invoked her name more and more frequently. Indeed, they do it so often that Kevin Leitch even coined a term for it: The Bernadine Healy Card. The most recent invocation of the Bernadine Healy card came yesterday in response to an article that Dr. Healy posted on her blog entitled The Vaccines-Autism War: Détente Needed. In it, we find Dr. Healy doing what she’s become known for lately, trying to sound like the voice of reason and remain above the fray, all the while laying down virtually all of the Generation Rescue antivaccine line while disingenuously proclaiming that she’s all for vaccines.


Source: Respectful Insolence

Here’s another:

In her article, The Vaccine-Autism War: Detente Needed, Healy calls for appeasement of the anti-vaccine movement by the medical community in three areas:

1: Stop overvaccinating

While there are certainly public health and economic reasons to consider when determining how many vaccines to give, Healy is presupposing that there is an epidemic of negative vaccine reactions that requires explanation. There isn’t.

…

2. Be flexible on vaccine schedules

If Healy considers Jenny McCarthy’s vaccine-autism spectrum disorder fears reasonable, we shudder to think what she might consider unreasonable.

…

3. Study genetic predisposition to negative vaccine reactions

There are rare, significant negative reactions to vaccines. Some of these reactions may have underlying, non-random causes. It is undeniably important to develop methods to identify these individuals. Glad Healy suggested that. Someone should get on that. Oh wait, they already are.

…

Do we think Healy is a dyed in the wool anti-vaccinationist? Certainly, not. But, she has let herself become a rallying point for and given a false imprimatur of legitimacy to the anti-vaccinationists.


Source:Festival Of Idiots #9: Bernadine Healy, For Anti-Vaccine Appeasement

For even more information on Dr. Bernadine Healy, the autism blog Left Brain/Right Brain has an entire category dedicated to her. It’s worth perusing.

In conclusion, I find myself skeptical of Dr. Healy’s impartiality on this issue. It seems to me that she is flirting with the anti-vaccination movement. Even if she’s not, the anti-vaccination movement is using her to lend credibility to their case that vaccines are dangerous.

248 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:19:02am

re: #135 cliffster

I encourage you to read what I’ve written, which is that it’s not about the vaccines. And I encourage you to lower the temperature, I’ve never been hostile or said anything about “spouting bullshit”.

Sorry, that was Celtic Dragon.

249 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:19:30am

re: #246 nonic

I don’t really understand this at all. So are you saying that European governments forbid you to pay for certain treatments yourself in order to save money? Or for other, more nefarious reasons? That really requires a link.

250 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:29:44am

re: #217 celticdragon

Has it occurred to you that your problems with private insurance might arise from the fact that the insurance market is already highly regulated by the government?

First problem: The employer-based system, created by tax incentives. The actual consumer’s choice of insurance is restricted to whatever plan(s) his/her employer chooses to make available. If you get bad service, you can’t take your business elsewhere unless you have the money to pay the whole premium yourself on the private market. The market would look very different if there were an income tax insurance premium credit offered directly to individuals (instead of the credit going through the employer, with premiums not counted in individual income).

Second problem: You are forbidden by law to purchase your health insurance plan based in a state where you do not reside. This also reduces competition. (Plus, it makes getting health care when traveling even more difficult, expensive, and scary than it otherwise would be, because you are obtaining out-of-plan care.)

I have another question: I thought Medicare was for the elderly. How did you end up with your family eligible for it? Or do you mean Medicaid?

251 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:34:28am

re: #247 Liberal Classic

Thank you for those links. Favorited for later reading.

252 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:22am

re: #250 lurking faith

Has it occurred to you that your problems with private insurance might arise from the fact that the insurance market is already highly regulated by the government?


No.

First problem: The employer-based system, created by tax incentives. The actual consumer’s choice of insurance is restricted to whatever plan(s) his/her employer chooses to make available. If you get bad service, you can’t take your business elsewhere unless you have the money to pay the whole premium yourself on the private market. The market would look very different if there were an income tax insurance premium credit offered directly to individuals (instead of the credit going through the employer, with premiums not counted in individual income).

Which works to the benefit of the insurance company.

Second problem: You are forbidden by law to purchase your health insurance plan based in a state where you do not reside. This also reduces competition. (Plus, it makes getting health care when traveling even more difficult, expensive, and scary than it otherwise would be, because you are obtaining out-of-plan care.)

Again, this works to the benefit of the insurance companies. They are the only group other than Baseball to have Federal Anti-trust exemptions.

Over regulated? Really? The regulations are crafted BY THE INDUSTRY THOUGH WILLING PARTNERS IN GOVERNMENT TO GIVE THEM THIS SORT OF POWER!

I thought Medicare was for the elderly. How did you end up with your family eligible for it? Or do you mean Medicaid?

You are correct. I should have said Medicaid. I actually become eligible for Medicare in a few months, since I am on Social Security Disability.

253 Ian MacGregor  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:45am

This is about a week old.

Comedy Central Video
254 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:58:16am

re: #247 Liberal Classic

I am quite sure that there are some critics of her. What of it? Do they actually refute her point? I think not.

255 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:00:23am

re: #246 nonic

Your insurance company likely will also not pay for your kid to have a nose job or breast enhancement. That is not the same thing as saying she is not allowed to HAVE the cosmetic surgery.

Huh? You actually want to argue that not covering cosmetic surgery is comparable to withholding payment for medically mandated treatment??!

Sure…you can have the treatment…

You just can’t pay for it…

256 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:04:05am

re: #248 CyanSnowHawk

I don’t recall the quote “spouting bullshit” at any point.

I called “bullshit” on the notion that improved diagnosis alone could account for a rise in cases of autism by several orders of magnitude…which is not at all the same thing as telling you that you are “spouting bullshit”. I would consider that offensive as well, and I would not direct that at you. If you took it that way, then I apologize.

257 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:15:45am

re: #247 Liberal Classic

Uh oh.

Dr. Bernadine Healy, a senior writer for U.S. News & World Report and former director of the National Institutes of Health, falsely claimed that “several” neurologists who “evaluated” Terri Schiavo determined that she had “a functional mind” and was “minimally conscious.” In fact, discredited Dr. William Hammesfahr is the only neurologist who has examined Schiavo to argue that she is not in a persistent vegetative state (PVS).

That does look like a problem.

258 lurking faith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:16:14am

re: #252 celticdragon

We are almost arguing on the same side here. The current regulations benefit the insurance companies, at the expense of the consumer.

Therefore, I strongly suspect that any additional government interference will also tend to benefit the insurance companies, at the expense of the consumer. Insurance companies are lobbying for the reform package.

Disclosure: I don’t trust government plans, based on experience with the VA, my relatives’ comments on Medicare, and the useless health care I got in Europe.

259 nonic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:17:44am

re: #255 celticdragon

Huh? You actually want to argue that not covering cosmetic surgery is comparable to withholding payment for medically mandated treatment??!

Yes, it is comparable.

Scenario #1: You can have the treatment, but the insurance company will not pay for it. Your options are find the money in your budget, take out a loan, ask a realtive for help, sell your house or other property, appeal to some charitable organization, work out some kind of deal with the provider, or anything else you can think of. (Think legal abortion which is not covered by some insurance policies.)

Scenario #2: Regardless of money or lack of same, you are simply not permitted to have the treatment. Your options are to find a “black market” provider or travel to another country where the treatment is permitted. (Think illegal abortion.)

260 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:56:53am

I think South Park should take on the anti-vaxers. The script practically writes itself - anti-science insanity, parental hysteria, celebrity d-bags, and it all revolves around children. Maybe Kyle gets sick with the pig flu and go from there.

This one is a slam dunk for Trey and Matt, Secular Prophets of Our Times. You’re not really a certified idiot until South Park has made you look like a moron.

261 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:12:13am

re: #259 nonic

Sorry, but you have failed to link to some sort of prove that anyone anywhere forbids people to pay for their own treatment.

262 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:30am

re: #247 Liberal Classic

It does look like Dr Healy has some real credibility problems, esp wrt Terry Schivo. Damn.

263 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:41:43am

re: #256 celticdragon

I don’t recall the quote “spouting bullshit” at any point.

I called “bullshit” on the notion that improved diagnosis alone could account for a rise in cases of autism by several orders of magnitude…which is not at all the same thing as telling you that you are “spouting bullshit”. I would consider that offensive as well, and I would not direct that at you. If you took it that way, then I apologize.

That would be 2 orders of magnitude, 1 out of 10,000 to 1 out of 100, and you had called bullshit on someone else. You see, the way this works, is when someone calls bullshit and then starts spewing it themselves, someone else can point that out by saying something like, “who’s spouting bullshit now.” Since I was responding to cliffster, as opposed to you, I used it incorrectly and subsequently apologized to cliffster. So I did not call you out on bullshit, I mistakenly called cliffster out for calling someone else out, then spewing some him/her self.

264 Fenris  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:14:54pm

I ranted about the same thing on ACTfur On Air, Ep. 7. The primary thrust of my argument: antivax activists are deadlier than they look.

265 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #263 CyanSnowHawk

I am not even going to try to follow that line of reasoning…

266 cvandeve  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:08:07pm

I am for vaccination, but know of good arguments why certain children should not get vaccinated. Jesse Ventura Pro-Wrestler turned Governor became involved in politics, because of his child being allergic to vaccinations. Minnesota’s laws did not allow any exceptions to the rules.
Their comment was that one child could spread the diseases to the other kids. They also refused to take responsiblity for her Hospital bills and other costs.
That does not mean other children should not get shots.

267 McNug  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:25:48pm

I don’t agree with this but it makes for a very interesting thought experiment:

“Did you know that Asperger’s Syndrome afflicts a disproportionate number of boys? Did you know that Asperger’s Syndrome afflicts a highly disproportionate number of Jewish firstborn boys?
“Hans Asperger formulated his ideas in the years immediately following the Second World War. Before that time, the syndrome does not seem to have been recorded or even to exist. So here are my three theories. Since Asperger’s affects so many Jewish firstborn males it could have been a misguided biblical plague which, of course, presupposes that there is a God, which makes that theory unlikely to say the least. The second theory, which makes more sense, is that Asperger’s Syndrome is a condition caused by the Holocaust, which someohow is carried to its victims through the group psyche. The third theory, which I like the best, is that Hans Asperger was in reality a kraut propagandist who devised Asperger’s Syndrome to cover for and explain the human deviations caused by the genetic experimentation done by the Nazis.”

-Larry ‘Ratso’ Sloman, journalist


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