It's a pole... reminds me of the North Pole... and we all know who lived there...

... until he was eaten...

PS. You only have 61 more shopping days till Christmas.

Another ocean thread specifically for spacejesus?
//

The overnight thread! I can't say first.. But my favorite Tee-shirt I ever saw on a girl in college said..You can't be first...But you might be next'
I love Tee-Shirts!
/Hi Lizards!

Why is there a wire leading out into the middle of the ocean?

re: #2 freetoken

Not if I can help it. This is the year I will successfully end Christmas once and for all.

KOS is following a nirther falling out:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

re: #6 theheat

Grinch.

re: #5 Conservative Moonbat

Why is there a wire leading out into the middle of the ocean?

Remember, you asked,

The Cable.

re: #7 Thanos

KOS is following a nirther falling out:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred.

re: #8 freetoken

One of these years I'll have my game plan perfected. So far, all I have is the dog and the sleigh.

re: #5 Conservative Moonbat

Why is there a wire leading out into the middle of the ocean?

It's funny how the mind works and one thought leads to another. I read your comment and thought of a Twilight Zone episode where a fallen telephone wire led to a grave. It was Night Call. I was terrified!

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred deported.

FTFY

re: #6 theheat

Not if I can help it. This is the year I will successfully end Christmas once and for all.

Grinch!

re: #11 theheat

One of these years I'll have my game plan perfected. So far, all I have is the dog and the sleigh.

You're a mean one, Mr Heat. ;)

Time for me to get some sleeps

re: #14 Silvergirl

Grinch!

Oops, I didn't see you're already having this conversation with freetoken and you have the dog and the sleigh.

re: #12 Silvergirl

Isn't that the one with Billy Mumy? That was freaky. I love the Twilight Zone!

re: #16 Thanos

Time for me to get some sleeps

[Video]

Goodnight, Thanos.

re: #18 Irenicum

Isn't that the one with Billy Mumy? That was freaky. I love the Twilight Zone!

No. Not Billy Mumy. Yes on freaky!
Night Call

re: #12 Silvergirl

It's funny how the mind works and one thought leads to another. I read your comment and thought of a Twilight Zone episode where a fallen telephone wire led to a grave. It was Night Call. I was terrified!

pt1

pt2

re: #21 negativ

What fun! I wonder if it will stand the test of time for me.

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred.

She's posting social security numbers of people with the last name Obama on her website too. That's gotta be some kind of crime.

re: #18 Irenicum

Isn't that the one with Billy Mumy? That was freaky. I love the Twilight Zone!

That one is called "It's a Good Life."

For anyone who hasn't seen the drunkest guy in the world:

re: #24 metrolibertarian

She's posting social security numbers of people with the last name Obama on her website too. That's gotta be some kind of crime.

Orly Taitz's website reads like a form letter from Zimbabwe.

Darling of World Nut Daily and other wingnut sites.

Is that the power line that runs out to Captain Nemo's diabolical undersea craft?

re: #27 Gus 802

Orly Taitz's website reads like a form letter from Zimbabwe.

Darling of World Nut Daily and other wingnut sites.

Again, she should be disbarred and then allowed to rave on the street corners to her heart's content.

re: #26 Conservative Moonbat

For anyone who hasn't seen the drunkest guy in the world:

[Video]

I thought it was this guy:

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred.

Why not? Jack Thompson, video game gadfly, was disbarred.

re: #22 Sharmuta

I didn't know George was playing Fenders that early.

Reviewing TIVO pregames tonight...The NBA season starts weds.
The Magic look tough.. Length and speed...WOW..leading by 40
The Lakers are on next...

re: #6 theheat

Not if I can help it. This is the year I will successfully end Christmas once and for all.

A festivus for the rest of us!

re: #27 Gus 802

Going through the overwhelming amount of insanity on the website, I'm almost convinced she doesn't *actually* exist, but is merely some kind avatar under the auspices of Joseph Farah, Pamela Geller, Jerome Corsi, and Alan Keyes. Because if someone that braindead actually existed and was on TV, that disgraceful shithead Randal Terry would be involved.

re: #26 Conservative Moonbat

I couldn't watch the entire thing- that was painful.

re: #35 metrolibertarian

Photographic proof that Orly exists, hell, it has even become a web meme...

Image: OrlyTaitzOwl.jpg

/

re: #35 metrolibertarian

Going through the overwhelming amount of insanity on the website, I'm almost convinced she doesn't *actually* exist, but is merely some kind avatar under the auspices of Joseph Farah, Pamela Geller, Jerome Corsi, and Alan Keyes. Because if someone that braindead actually existed and was on TV, that disgraceful shithead Randal Terry would be involved.

That's a good list of crazies and I am reminded that I've met people like that while riding the bus. I think 2009 will go down as the year of the crazies. It's hard to believe that these people make a living peddling their wares. Having seen Orly Taitz in videos I find it hard to believe that someone could actually behave as she does but much to my amazement she does. One of the reasons she does get so much mileage is because of the internet. As we've seen many times before, any other half witted person, cause, or movement can have a voice on the internet.

The only Guns n Roses song I like

re: #37 ausador

Photographic proof that Orly exists, hell, it has even become a web meme...

[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]

/

I was being facetious, except about the braindead part.

re: #26 Conservative Moonbat

Lets just hope he didn't drive there...

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred prosecuted.

FTFY

Time for me to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

Time for me to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

Night DF.

re: #21 negativ

Thanks for posting those. I watched. Good old Twilight Zone. Now if I only had a stormy night, the atmosphere would be perfect to go to sleep with the phone by the bed.

Good-night to anyone still awake!

re: #39 Sharmuta

The only Guns n Roses song I like

Guns N' Roses - Paradise City

Oh shit! Beck was right to be concerned about the flu vaccine!

(And please, the fact she stops acting like a spaz for a second to fix her hair means nothing! Not everyone can commit to non-stop spastic behavior like Beck.)

re: #40 metrolibertarian

I was being facetious, except about the braindead part.

Well she is after all a Dentist, a real estate Agent, and a Lawyer, along with being founder of the non-profit "Defend Our Freedoms Foundation". Obviously she has (had?) some brains, in this case they are just being put to extremely bad use. Having seen her on T.V. a few times now I have kinda decided she is just a poor imitation of Beck. All the stridence and shouting over made up issues without quite as much acting ability.

She is only in it for the money, as are so many others are that pander to the rightist fringe these days it seems.

re: #46 Gus 802

I always liked this one. -- Civil War

re: #47 metrolibertarian

It's always been acknowledged that the condition she got from the flue shot is a possibility. The possibility of croaking due to the flu is a hell of a lot larger though. She's a one in a million.

re: #48 ausador

Well she is after all a Dentist, a real estate Agent, and a Lawyer, along with being founder of the non-profit "Defend Our Freedoms Foundation". Obviously she has (had?) some brains, in this case they are just being put to extremely bad use. Having seen her on T.V. a few times now I have kinda decided she is just a poor imitation of Beck. All the stridence and shouting over made up issues without quite as much acting ability.

She is only in it for the money, as are so many others are that pander to the rightist fringe these days it seems.

I would say WND is in it for the money (along with their "Send a Pink Slip to Congress" campaign, which only costs the sender $29.95 now!). Orly's motivations escape me at the moment, because it's looking right now to be costing her more money than earning.

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

[Whether or not] If that declaration is true, Orly Taitz should be disbarred.

Yeah, I realize this is getting somewhat lame as practically everyone else has done it already, but...
FTFY. :P

I...only...want...to...talk...to...you...about...Obama's...birth...certificate...

Not an overly odd day. Much prefer the localized crazy, to the crazy-everywhere-all-over-everything day. And got to add Barrett Brown column to my daily reading. Guns n' Roses sucks

re: #54 checked08

Guns n' Roses sucks

Upding!

re: #7 Thanos

KOS is following a nirther falling out:

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Hmmm...more trouble for Orly. Very serious trouble, if this holds up. Encouraging a witness to give false testimony is a felony, I believe - and it's especially odious when a lawyer does it. The courts take a very dim view of such things.

I look forward to her facing heavy charges.

A question to any Lizard still awake.

I am reasonably well acquainted with European history but I know that I lack understanding and knowledge about American (USA) history. Can you recommend a good book/books that would fill that gap. I'm talking about the period from independence until the civil war.
I'm not looking for American history for dummies but I'm also not a professional historian so I do not need anything with more footnotes than text.

Any suggestions?

re: #57 shimoda

I'm a great fan of Gordon S. Wood.

re: #58 Sharmuta

I'm a great fan of Gordon S. Wood.

I'll check him up, and any other suggestions that might come up. The time now is 12:10 in the morning/day in it is time for me to go outside and put the winter-tires under the car.
This is one ceremony I do not like. It means winter is definitely on the way. Putting on summer-tires in the spring is a much more positive experience.

re: #59 shimoda

He specializes in the Revolution. Not sure if you wanted to read about the Revolution or after it, but Wood is very good and doesn't dabble in revisionism.

re: #61 freetoken
re: #62 freetoken

Very nice.

re: #63 Varek Raith

re: #62 freetoken

Very nice.

Thanks... #62 is by Vivaldi, for those inquiring minds out there...

Good Morning LGF.

re: #57 shimoda

This is not a history, it is an essay from poet and philosopher Walt Whitam, from the second half of the XIX century, about the state of decocracy and intellectual life in America.

I recommend it highly if you want to get a handle on wht makes America tick

[Link: xroads.virginia.edu...]

I guess I should stop fiddling around and walk the dawg - BBL.

Did you hear about John McCain mother, Roberta McCain? She was in Portugal, in tourism (and she is 97 years old)!

[Link: www.tvi24.iol.pt...]

Roberta Wright McCain, mother of the Republican nominee for president in the 2008 United States election, was hospitalized at the Hospital São José in Lisbon this Tuesday afternoon, acknowledge tvi24.pt.

Roberta Wright McCain, 97, was taken by INEM, an emergency national service, to this hospital at 7:26 pm, local time in Lisbon, due to a fall in one of the streets in the downtown. She was found lined on the ground but her condition is not serious, according to hospital sources.

Tvi24.pt knows that Roberta McCain is hurt in her head and face, and for moments suffered amnesia. After an electrocardiogram and a x-ray she stayed for the night in the hospital.

Tvi24.pt also knows that Roberta McCain is hosted at Hotel Borges which is located in Lisbon downtown where she check-in around 16:00 pm (local time in Lisbon). According to sources of Hotel Borges the reservation for one night was made online and Roberta McCain, 97, arrived alone.

Senator McCain was informed by tvi24.pt about this accident. The mother of Arizona senator is very well known in USA for her vitality and for her love for travelling.

Quote from the Obamessiah, 2001:

If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement and its litigation strategy in the court. I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed people, so that now I would have the right to vote. I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I’d be o.k. But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.

To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you, but doesn’t say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf, and that hasn’t shifted and one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that. …

I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know, the institution just isn’t structured that way.
---
Now, IMHO, this seems to show a profound & sad lack of understanding on Obama's part of the entire PURPOSE of the Constitution. It was designed as a REIGN on the power the government had over our lives. The framers were against 'big government'. In fact, that was one of the biggest debates, between the federalists & the anti-federalists. Sadly, the federalists won out. I can just imagine the shrieks of outrage from leftists like Obama had the anti-federalists won out, giving their beloved federal government less power over out ever move.

Rush had some excellent quotes from Jefferson & Adams regarding the 'redistribution of wealth' Obama seems so fond of.

Thomas Jefferson- letter to Joseph Milligan, April 6th, 1816: "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association -- the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

Jefferson's first inaugural address, March 4th, 1801: "A wise and frugal government which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

Thomas Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of Governments of the United States of America, 1787: "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence."
---
I'm not going to pretend I can read Obama's mind as far as his political philosophy. But his words seem to point to someone who firmly believes the purpose of government is to promote equality of outcome, rather than equality of standard & opportunity.

Bad idea.

re: #57 shimoda

You might check a series called 'A Basic History or the United States' by Clarence Carson

re: #26 Conservative Moonbat

That's awesome.

More in that vein:

The photo is very empty of people.

And the fish are hidden, they are little submarines.

Good morning, but BBL.

re: #72 Ojoe

The photo is very empty of people.

And the fish are hidden, they are little submarines.

Good morning, but BBL.

Good morning, Ojoe.
Everyone else, too.

Pat Condell's latest:
Wake up, America

Omar Akhmed seems to agree with Mike Huckabee that the US Constitution should be subjugated to religious scriptures. Now they just need to sort out which scriptures (and whose interpretation) is to given priority...

Morning. I'll take a wild guess and assume that this is the first piece for the ophicleide you've heard today:

re: #75 ralphieboy

But the Koran advocates horrible things to those who don't accept Islam, and that is not compatible with our Constitution.

Oh wait . . . the Christian Bible does the same thing.

[Link: skepticsannotatedbible.com...]

re: #69 right_wing2

In fact, that was one of the biggest debates, between the federalists & the anti-federalists. Sadly, the federalists won out.

Yeah, what a tragedy, because the economic climate in the 1770s is TOTALLY comparable to 2009.

It's certainly very true that the founders disagreed vehemently on many topics. But in the end, they all signed a document that never once mentions a preferred economic philosophy. In fact, because the Constitution is pretty much neutral in that respect, I think it's safe to say that the founders thought it best left to the people. It's worth considering that the concept of what we would call the "free market" hadn't really been articulated at the time of the American Revolution. Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was first published only 4 months before the Declaration of Independence. I think trying to paint the founders as a bunch of laissez faire ubercapitalists is vastly presumptuous.

I can just imagine the shrieks of outrage from leftists like Obama had the anti-federalists won out, giving their beloved federal government less power over out ever move.

So, how would this work? Does Obama have a Way-Back Machine? Do you imagine him watching the televised simulcast of the Federalist vs. Antifederalist WWF SMACKDOWN and getting extremely upset over something that happened well over 200 years ago?

Speaking of shrieks of outrage, the "GREATEST GENERATION" knows a little something about sacrifice. During WWII, the government took control of damn near everything. Everything from gasoline to meat to pantyhose was strictly rationed. The War Production Board and the Office of Price Administration were created. Price controls, wage controls, and regulations on the hiring and firing of workers were imposed by the government. Wages were capped, and in order to attract workers, employers began offering such things as HEALTH INSURANCE.

The manufacture of such consumer items as refrigerators, automobiles and even housing materials was forbidden at that time. The public actually supported price controls, and businesses supported them even before they were implemented. Most labor leaders cooperated with President Roosevelt by pledging not to strike. With their cooperation came an increase in union membership.

All this governmental control was toward the purpose of solving a Huge Fucking Problem. It took enormous sacrifice on the part of many nations to defeat Hitler. Ditto for Hirohito.

It was a time of emergency. It was followed by a period of amazing technological, industrial, and economic growth.

These days, we have loud masses of middle-class people who shit themselves blind at the suggestion that multi-millionaires might have to pay 4% more taxes. "Patriotism" is defined as waving around misspelled signs featuring pictures of whoever the current president happens to be, with a Hitler mustache drawn on.

Then there was communism's weak-tea sister, socialism. Socialists maintained that we shouldn't take all the money away from all the people since all the people don't have money. We should take all the money away from only the people who make money. Then, when we run out of that, we could take more money from the people who...hey, wait! Where'd you people go? What do you mean you're "tax exiles in Monaco?"
-- P. J. O'Rourke, The CEO of the Sofa, 2001

re: #77 philosophus invidius

But the Koran advocates horrible things to those who don't accept Islam, and that is not compatible with our Constitution.

Oh wait . . . the Christian Bible does the same thing.

[Link: skepticsannotatedbible.com...]

As long as there are people on both sides who actively want it to come down to an armed struggle, a "clash of cultures", a "jihad" or whatever they may call it, conflict is all but pre-programmed.

We can only hope to try and keep a lid on it.

Good morning Lizards...
Watching Marley & Me...Stupid sad dog movie..Ok This is my second time watching it...
/did get a great idea...The scene at night with the pool candles floating around. What a great idea for this springtime pool party..Hey Jennifer Aniston took her clothes off and jumped in the water.. The wheels are spinning in my head..

re: #80 ralphieboy

As long as there are people on both sides who actively want it to come down to an armed struggle, a "clash of cultures", a "jihad" or whatever they may call it, conflict is all but pre-programmed.

We can only hope to try and keep a lid on it.

You're right. We just need to give up and then the violence will stop. Give peace a chance dude!!!
//

Rousseau advocated tolerance on the grounds that:

It is impossible to live at peace with those we regard as damned.

I think that is true for secular fundamentalists of various stripes too.

So in the open thread theme, I am curious if any folks on this site read this or listened to the press conference last week:
Review of U.S. Human Space Flight Plans Committee

re: #82 rwdflynavy

You're right. We just need to give up and then the violence will stop. Give peace a chance dude!!!
//

"Keeping a lid on it" does not just mean sitting back and letting these guys escalate things.

There is a big difference between "pacifism" and "passivism".

I think the best quote on that topic stems from Germany's former Green Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, who said that his concept of pacifism was not simply "no more war", it also meant "no more Auschwitzes".

Every time I get sucked into work all kinds of crazy stuff happens. Limbaugh got spoofed and the GOP's website was 'too many cooks in the kitchen' consultant orgy.

In other news...

Good morning lizards!

Obama offers millions in Muslim technology fund

The White House Friday highlighted a new multi-million-dollar technology fund for Muslim nations, following a pledge made by President Barack Obama in his landmark speech to the Islamic world.

The White House said the US Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) had issued a call for proposals for the fund, which will provide financing of between 25 and 150 million dollars for selected projects and funds.

The Global Technology and Innovation Fund will "catalyze and facilitate private sector investments" throughout Asia, the Middle East and Africa, the White House said in a statement.

Eligible projects would advance economic opportunity and create jobs in areas like technology, education, telecoms, media, business services and clean technology, the White House said.

OPIC said sample projects could help foster the development of new computer technology or telecommunications businesses, or widen access to broadband Internet services.

Proposals must be submitted by the end of November, and managers of funds that make a final short list will make presentations in Washington in January.

Final selections will be announced next June.

Meanwhile the WH says "unemployment is likely to remain at its severely elevated level". Is this a part of the stimulus plan?

re: #84 Tungsten

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

hmmm. nope don't agree there. Why do you think that is true?

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

Here is another thought..We are a nation of explorers...From wagon trains to the Heavens...We seek the unknown.. Territories beyond our reach.

re: #81 HoosierHoops

Good morning Lizards...
Watching Marley & Me...Stupid sad dog movie..Ok This is my second time watching it...
/did get a great idea...The scene at night with the pool candles floating around. What a great idea for this springtime pool party..Hey Jennifer Aniston took her clothes off and jumped in the water.. The wheels are spinning in my head..

Hoops - if you're thinking Jennifer Aniston will show up at your pool party ... well, keep dreaming, my friend!

btw - check your e-mails -

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Here is another thought..We are a nation of explorers...From wagon trains to the Heavens...We seek the unknown.. Territories beyond our reach.

I like your thought better.
Nowhere near as gloomy as the though you responded to . . .

We should leave space travel to private investors, after all, everybody knows that the government is terribly inefficient at anything it tries to do, isn't it?

re: #90 HoosierHoops

Then lets explore without human beings on board.

re: #78 negativ

Gas rationing in WW2 was severe, if you had an "A" classification you got 4 gallons per week IIRC & cars only got 20 MPG. Tires were rationed too.

We are very soft now compared to then.

Not to mention the fact that there were no new cars available on the market for the duration...

re: #93 ralphieboy

We should leave space travel to private investors, after all, everybody knows that the government is terribly inefficient at anything it tries to do, isn't it?

But there are currently no private folks doing space travel to leave it to.

re: #87 njdhockeyfan

Meanwhile the WH says "unemployment is likely to remain at its severely elevated level". Is this a part of the stimulus plan?

Meanwhile Ojoe sys that together the two major parties rate an EPIC FAIL.

re: #94 philosophus invidius

Then lets explore without human beings on board.

The rovers on Mars right now have no humans. We are already doing that.

re: #97 Tungsten

Yes, but they would be more efficient, that is a matter of conservative dogma. They just cannot compete with the "public option" model of space exploration...

re: #98 Ojoe

Meanwhile Ojoe sys that together the two major parties rate an EPIC FAIL.

And Ojoe would be right.

re: #100 ralphieboy

Yes, but they would be more efficient, that is a matter of conservative dogma. They just cannot compete with the "public option" model of space exploration...

Apples and Oranges in my opinion. There is no "market" for them to compete in.

re: #94 philosophus invidius

Then lets explore without human beings on board.

Nobody said you had to go..Just stay seated there...
We are a nation of explorers..We seek the mysteries of the Universe..
Somebody said once.. We seek to go to the moon..Not because it is easy..But because it is hard.
That's America for ya...

re: #99 Tungsten

The rovers on Mars right now have no humans. We are already doing that.

At considerably lower cost than any manned mission could achieve - by a couple orders of magnitude, or more.

That said, manned spaceflight is still worthwhile and necessary, both for the spur it provides to industry and simply to maintain various existing missions that were designed with a manned capability in mind.

But manned spaceflight shouldn't suck all the air out of the exploration room, as it has tended to do in the past. We also learn a great deal from developing unmanned missions, and in terms of data returned we get a lot more bang for the buck from those.

It's also easier to guarantee sterility, as unmanned craft are exposed to hard vacuum and high radiation, along with severe extremes of temperature on their voyage - something you simply can't do with an astronaut. And until it's clear that life doesn't exist elsewhere we happen to be visiting, it's important to retain sterility in order to keep from hopelessly muddying the picture in the future.

re: #99 Tungsten

Yes we should be doing that. But: what would it add to have a person there other than the coolness factor ... and the possible risk of (pointless) death?

NASA has two divisions: science and human spaceflight. There is a reason they are distinct. Any scientist will tell you that nothing of scientific value ever came out of human spaceflight that could not have been done much more cheaply (and safely) without humans up there. The best you can say about human spaceflight is that the technology needed for it might have other applications.

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

Have you forgotten the benefits we see everyday from NASA research?

The next time you reset the smoke detector in your home, take a minute to imagine it as part of your own spacecraft's caution and warning system. Because before they saved lives on Earth, that's where smoke detectors were found on spacecraft designed and built by NASA.

NASA advances assist in automated pollution control Although NASA's most visible achievements have taken place in space, the technologies that put men on the moon, launched space shuttles and will build a space station have found their way into everyday life on Earth.

These common secondary uses, called space spinoffs, have continuously enhanced the lifestyle of Americans and strengthened the U.S. economy since the 1950s.

The technologies that led to the computer bar codes in retail stores, quartz timing crystals and household smoke detectors were originally developed for NASA.

Ergometer used by astronauts helps paralyzed man with muscle stimulation! NASA technology has provided many benefits to the medical field. The pacemakers used to treat cardiac patients as well as the remote monitoring devices for intensive care patients were derived from the telemetry systems that first monitored astronauts and spacecraft. Much of the portable medical equipment carried aboard ambulances has its roots in NASA's needs for such portable equipment in space.

These are but a few of the more than 30,000 secondary applications of space technology providing daily benefits in Earth-bound hospitals, offices and homes.

In the past, such spinoffs often happened by chance a coincidence when practical uses of new technologies were found.

The Boeing 777 - direct spinoffs from space! NASA is now seeking to make the spinoff a part of the product itself.

Working jointly with private industry to develop technologies that have a use in space and on Earth lessens the cost of development for NASA, and, ultimately, the taxpayer.

Technologies developed for NASA to meet the challenges of space exploration have found more than 30,000 secondary commercial uses in products ranging from tennis shoes to medical equipment, bar codes, pacemakers and sunglasses.

It goes well beyond military use, in the future we will need both energy and resources from space. See, there isn't "just one earth" instead we have earth, 8 planets, millions of asteroids, and lots of moons.

re: #102 Tungsten

Certainly there is, is there not tons of real estate out there waiting to be developed?

Is Free ENterprise not about creating and conquering new markets, to boldly split infinitives that no man has split beofre?

///

Let me put retroactive sarc tags on everything I posted on this topic here, I am just taking the Conservative "Private enterprise can do everything better" creed to its (il)logical extreme

re: #100 ralphieboy

Yes, but they would be more efficient, that is a matter of conservative dogma. They just cannot compete with the "public option" model of space exploration...

If there were free markets operating, that might be true. However, there aren't any - there's no compelling reason for business to invest in a space presence at the moment, simply because business is driven by returns on investment, and to date the returns don't come anywhere near recouping the costs involved. In the rare instances where something of interest to industry is best done in space, or can only be done there, it's better to share a corner of a subsidized launch - and pay only for the lifting of it's own particular payload - than to implement and maintain the vast infrastructure required to get a few pounds of matter a few hundred miles away from the earth's surface.

re: #105 philosophus invidius

Yes we should be doing that. But: what would it add to have a person there other than the coolness factor ... and the possible risk of (pointless) death?

NASA has two divisions: science and human spaceflight. There is a reason they are distinct. Any scientist will tell you that nothing of scientific value ever came out of human spaceflight that could not have been done much more cheaply (and safely) without humans up there. The best you can say about human spaceflight is that the technology needed for it might have other applications.

Well I think that is a bit overstated actually. That would tend to imply that all of the scientists doing work on board the Space Station (with the help of the crew) and all of the scientists trying to get work on future missions are not really scientists. Pretty sure they would argue with you there...

13 Mainstream Products Originally Invented for Space Travel

re: #106 njdhockeyfan

Well, that's what they get for their government spending project. But is it worth the billions spent (and lives lost)? And couldn't the government find a more cost-effective way to fund these technologies? And how many of them arose specifically from the human spaceflight technology? If we spent less on human spaceflight, perhaps more money could be spent on other kinds of space exploration with different technologies resulting.

In the 60's there were other non-tangible benefits to space travel, such as reasserting the predominance of the Capitalist system - by means of a massive government-funded project.

Go figure that one, Rush...

re: #112 philosophus invidius

Well, that's what they get for their government spending project. But is it worth the billions spent (and lives lost)? And couldn't the government find a more cost-effective way to fund these technologies? And how many of them arose specifically from the human spaceflight technology? If we spent less on human spaceflight, perhaps more money could be spent on other kinds of space exploration with different technologies resulting.

Several actually. Look for NASA spinoffs on the web, tons of links.
Spin Offs

re: #113 ralphieboy

In the 60's there were other non-tangible benefits to space travel, such as reasserting the predominance of the Capitalist system - by means of a massive government-funded project.

Go figure that one, Rush...

You seem to be trolling. Your post here is an artificial construct designed to inflame.

Do you have anything useful to contribute to this discussion?

Speaking of poles:

Actually these gals seem to be some flavor of Scandinavian. But there's a pole involved. And a catfight! Meow.

Now that we have permanent footprint in space (our current technologies demand it) humans will be needed in space just to repair the robots if naught else. Here's a perfect example:

We were discussing space flight, and whether it is worth our time & effort to pursue it.

I want to point out that there are non-tangible benefits to it that go beyond the economic benefits.

And to point out some of the odd contradictions in the ultraconservative POV that Private Enterprise is better than government in every way.

It is an interesting conversation. I think the real question here is are we OK with the Chinese landing on the moon before the US gets back there?

re: #78 negativ

Excellent.

re: #112 philosophus invidius

Ask the astronauts - the astronauts in the video above knew the statistics: 1:17 chance of death.

re: #119 Tungsten

Once again, the non-tangible benefits: Cina wants to step into the role that the USSR played in its heyday, as the chief competitor to the USA.

re: #121 Thanos

Just because someone is willing to put themselves in harm's way does not mean that one ought to assist them.

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

Could be true. Could also be true that human destiny is to get a handful of
genetic material to every corner of the Milky Way. Wake me up in a couple
of million years.

re: #122 ralphieboy

Once again, the non-tangible benefits: Cina wants to step into the role that the USSR played in its heyday, as the chief competitor to the USA.

I don't disagree. We are in a colaborative effort with the Russians on the Space Station, but I am curious about how that realtionship will evolve once the Shuttle stops flying and we are totally dependent on them for a ride to space. The Chinese have a very agressive program and have a very good chance of sending humans back to the moon well before we are ready.

I think that is a very intangible element of the program as you say. Are folks willing to spend money on the space program is question one, but are those folks swayed at all by the thought of the Chinese beating us at a game we invented is the question two.

re: #94 philosophus invidius

Then lets explore without human beings on board.

Why let robots have all the fun?

re: #123 philosophus invidius

Just because someone is willing to put themselves in harm's way does not mean that one ought to assist them.

Disagree in prinicipal there. We should assist Fire fighters and police and soldiers etc. I think you answer is based on a concept that you get no bennefit from the astronaut core.

re: #97 Tungsten

But there are currently no private folks doing space travel to leave it to.

At this moment no private corporation is launching humans into orbit. That may change sooner than some seem to think. Refer to:

Spacex.com
Bigelowaerospace.com
Armadilloaerospace.com
Mastenspacesystems.com
Virgingalactic.com

Also, the Russians are launching privatel citizens to the ISS at an exorbitant cost.

I am especially fascinated with the NGLLC competition, as well as the Google Lunar X Prize. It's still early days, but think about what could be done with Falcon 9 heavy. Private lunar flights may be within our grasp at some point, and I have a sneaking suspicion that's what Elon Musk and John Carmack (to name but two) are aiming to do.

re: #119 Tungsten

It is an interesting conversation. I think the real question here is are we OK with the Chinese landing on the moon before the US gets back there?

That doesn't particularly bother me. Been there, done that. The Chinese will get there using technology developed here in the first place.

A more compelling question is: do we want to cede a manned presence in space to other nations? Manned missions to the moon and Mars, in my opinion, don't hold much in the way of actual value, but maintaining the ability to mount such missions seems important. Nothing says "I quit!" quite as loudly as overtly giving up.

In terms of actual projects, I would rather see NASA focused on continuing the unmanned exploration of the solar system, finally getting a look at Pluto and more detailed investigations of the other planets, moons and asteroids, coupled to the development of semi-autonomous vehicles capable of some degree of self-direction. This is an area of technology that is at just the right stage for such aid - it's well developed enough to actually accomplish things, yet not quite advanced enough to be anywhere near as useful as it could be with further refinement. The potential spin-offs also seem to be somewhere between extremely to staggeringly useful, if we can get past the initial development hump.

re: #100 ralphieboy

Yes, but they would be more efficient, that is a matter of conservative dogma. They just cannot compete with the "public option" model of space exploration...

The private investment model doesn't (and shouldn't) work for efforts requiring
multi-generational payback thresholds.

Eight Years of ISS Science Research Accomplishments Published

Advances in the fight against food poisoning, new methods for delivering medicine to cancer cells, and better materials for future spacecraft are among the results just published in a NASA report detailing scientific research accomplishments made aboard the International Space Station during its first eight years. The results include more than 100 science experiments, ranging from bone studies to materials research.

The first 15 expeditions from 2000 to 2008 aboard the space station have established the orbiting laboratory as a unique opportunity for research capabilities. The accomplishments are unique because they came as the space station was still being assembled. This new report concisely compiles all experiment results collected from each expedition. Some of the summarized investigations are complete with results released, others are complete with preliminary results and some remain ongoing projects.

"This report represents a record of science accomplishments during space station assembly, and summarizes peer-reviewed publications to date," said Julie Robinson, program scientist for the International Space Station at the Johnson Space Center in Houston. "As we enter the final year of assembly, this report highlights the capabilities and opportunities for station research after assembly complete."

NASA's research activities on the space station span several scientific areas, including exploration technology development; microgravity research in the physical and biological sciences; human physiology research; Earth science; and education. The report details 22 different technology demonstrations; 33 physical science experiments; 27 biological experiments; 32 experiments focused on the human body; Earth observations and educational activities. In addition to science important to long-duration human spaceflights, most findings also offer new understanding of methods or applications relevant to life on Earth.

Re the comment from earlier about how much the Maned Spaceflight program takes of the overall NASA budget. Seems pretty evenly distributed from this article. Note the less than 1% of the federal budget as well:

NASA budget press release 2009

re: #130 Decatur Deb

The private investment model doesn't (and shouldn't) work for efforts requiring
multi-generational payback thresholds.

"multi-generational payback thresholds"? That sounds like a code word for "socialism" to me...

Conservatives warn us that we should not be tempted into falling for any any system that is not based around bottom-line profit...

///

re: #129 SixDegrees

While I don't disagree that there should be a robust unmaned component, the fundemental question is why do all the research to see what is out ther if we never go there ourselves?

As for tangible benefit from space programs, here are two prosaic spinoffs off the top of my head, mundane as they may be:
Microwave ovens
Memory foam

re: #112 philosophus invidius

Well, that's what they get for their government spending project. But is it worth the billions spent (and lives lost)? (snip)

If I remember a class from the '60s, the chance of a Portuguese
crewman making it to the Indies and back in the 1400's was about
1 in 2. We just don't scare that easily.

re: #135 Odahi

As for tangible benefit from space programs, here are two prosaic spinoffs off the top of my head, mundane as they may be:
Microwave ovens
Memory foam

Velcro

re: #125 Tungsten

I don't disagree. We are in a colaborative effort with the Russians on the Space Station, but I am curious about how that realtionship will evolve once the Shuttle stops flying and we are totally dependent on them for a ride to space. The Chinese have a very agressive program and have a very good chance of sending humans back to the moon well before we are ready.

I think that is a very intangible element of the program as you say. Are folks willing to spend money on the space program is question one, but are those folks swayed at all by the thought of the Chinese beating us at a game we invented is the question two.

In terms of dollars, NASA's budget is somewhere far below insignificance. Last time I checked, it was a small fraction of one percent of the entire US budget. Saving money at NASA would have no noticeable impact on government spending. The only reason NASA attracts a lot of attention is that launches are highly public events, and because the occasional screwup grabs headlines on the basis of rarity alone.

Even during the height of the Apollo program, I don't think NASA's budget ever represented close to ten percent of the US budget, and probably far less.

Given that this sort of thing is one of the few examples of something that really ought to be done by government - private industry, as already noted, has no incentive at all to go to Mars, for example - I'd like to see NASA's budget raised to around two or three percent of the Federal budget, which would be an increase of almost an order of magnitude from where it is now and has languished for many years.

Pluto has a mission on the way. New Horizons, it's called. Mercury has Messenger. Look up "Astronomy Picture of the Day" for images from everything from the Spirit and Opportunity rovers to the Hubble to vast arrays of radio telescopes all over the world. Maybe basic knowledge isn't a tangible benefit, maybe it is.

re: #112 philosophus invidius

But is it worth the billions spent (and lives lost)?

As for the lives, the risk of space travel is well known by all who participate. And they have to beat applicants away with a stick, even so. Given the opportunity to ride along for any reason, I'd be fighting my way to the front of that line myself, no matter what the potential risks were.

re: #137 njdhockeyfan

Velcro

Whatever would we do without Velcro? ;^)

re: #133 ralphieboy

"multi-generational payback thresholds"? That sounds like a code word for "socialism" to me...

Conservatives warn us that we should not be tempted into falling for any any system that is not based around bottom-line profit...

///

If a for-profit corporation knows it won't see a dollar back for a hundred
years, it's ripping off its stockholders. Government spaceflight is no
more socialist than government turnpikes.

"multi-generational payback thresholds"

Maybe Elon Musk, John Carmack, Robert Bigelow, Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, and others in the private space industry aren't interested in profit any more, but I kind of doubt it.

re: #141 Cato the Elder

Whatever would we do without Velcro? ;^)

Intolerable increase in wardrobe malfunctions.

re: #78 negativ

What I'm sick of is the 40% plus in this country who pay no income taxes. Let's go with a flat tax of 17-20%, with generous exemptions, then start slashing government spending on all these unConstitutional projects. Business tax rate- probably in the 10-15% rate.

For those curious, NASA publishes an annual "Spinoffs" report. It's available from Amazon. Much more than Velcro, memory foam, and microwaves. If you think that's all we've gotten for our bucks, you're misinformed at best.

re: #143 Odahi

"multi-generational payback thresholds"

Maybe Elon Musk, John Carmack, Robert Bigelow, Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, and others in the private space industry aren't interested in profit any more, but I kind of doubt it.

I applaud their efforts, but they're doing Sunday yachting, not the
Santa Maria.

re: #145 right_wing2

You are sick of the people struggling along in low paid jobs that someone has to do anyway?

re: #143 Odahi

"multi-generational payback thresholds"

Maybe Elon Musk, John Carmack, Robert Bigelow, Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, and others in the private space industry aren't interested in profit any more, but I kind of doubt it.

I am very sure they are interested in profit. Once folks figure out how to make a buck sending humans to space everyone will want in on the game. The trick is, there have to be a few folks willing to take the risks (like the list you have here) working under the assumption (with no guarantees) that the money invested will eventually turn a profit. I think they are right, time will tell.

Catalina Island! I'd recognize that anywhere. When I was a kid, you could see it all the way from my parent's house in Fullerton. Over the years as pollution and trees and buildings built up, it's a very rare day you can see even a third of the way to see the Disneyland fireworks.

re: #148 Ojoe

It's one thing when its someone only making 15 or 20k. It's another when we're continually expanding the number of non taxpayers to the largest number possible.

A 17-20% flat tax, with a 10k per person exemption, would eliminate the truly needy from paying taxes, while ending the theft of money from the rest of us (I currently make under 40k).

Well time to be up and moving. Thanks for the coversation folks!

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

Apollo spinoff technologies

re: #133 ralphieboy

Sorry. Missed your ///.

Falcon 9 is no Sunday yacht. It's on its way to the Cape for its first flight, and has already been contracted well into the future for numerous launches, NOT tourist flights. The launch manifest (available on the Spacex website) is an interesting read. Falcon 1 is also well-booked. By the way, almost all of these companies are hiring right now. Of course, they only have limited openings, and they're kind of specialized. NASA certifications for technicians, advanced engineering degrees and such for design, and proven business skills for management. These guys are for real, and they have proven successes already.

I've worked in the industry for the last several years, and in the military for years before that. I keep up with what's happening, and have also (PROUDLY) had my hand in several projects that have launched in the past, and are in construction now. We're at a very exciting stage of our development right now.

re: #155 Odahi

These guys are for real, and they have proven successes already.

Don't mean to dismiss the visionaries, but I despise the "government always
does it wrong" theme. That's nothing but conservative aesthetics dressed
in fasionable despair.

re: #138 SixDegrees

In terms of dollars, NASA's budget is somewhere far below insignificance. Last time I checked, it was a small fraction of one percent of the entire US budget. Saving money at NASA would have no noticeable impact on government spending. The only reason NASA attracts a lot of attention is that launches are highly public events, and because the occasional screwup grabs headlines on the basis of rarity alone.

Even during the height of the Apollo program, I don't think NASA's budget ever represented close to ten percent of the US budget, and probably far less.

Given that this sort of thing is one of the few examples of something that really ought to be done by government - private industry, as already noted, has no incentive at all to go to Mars, for example - I'd like to see NASA's budget raised to around two or three percent of the Federal budget, which would be an increase of almost an order of magnitude from where it is now and has languished for many years.

I can't agree. I can't think of any good reason to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to try to send people to Mars when we can explore that planet with robots for a fraction of the cost.

re: #88 philosophus invidius

Here's a thought: human spaceflight serves no purpose other than as a government spending project that keeps money flowing to military contractors in peacetime.

You can kiss Major Tom's ass.

re: #158 aagcobb

I can't agree. I can't think of any good reason to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to try to send people to Mars when we can explore that planet with robots for a fraction of the cost.

I've already addressed that point, above.

Do try to keep up.

re: #151 right_wing2

It's one thing when its someone only making 15 or 20k. It's another when we're continually expanding the number of non taxpayers to the largest number possible.

A 17-20% flat tax, with a 10k per person exemption, would eliminate the truly needy from paying taxes, while ending the theft of money from the rest of us (I currently make under 40k).

Am I to assume this federal flat tax would also come with the elimination of payroll taxes (which is where the poor gets hit)?

re: #151 right_wing2

OK. I make under 40 k these days too.

I would like to see more legislation in place to discourage speculation in the necessities (food shelter clothing energy) too. Because regular lower & middle class people are hit hard by that stuff.

re: #153 negativ

Those spinoff technologies are pretty modest given the price tag. It's a pretty expensive kind of stimulus. (And in my view it is nuts to think that we could or ever would want to colonize another planet.) It would be interesting to compare the price of manned spaceflight program vs. building a whole new Hubble when it breaks rather than repairing with humans.

Yes, scientists work with the manned program for some experiments. But they would prefer to work with unmanned vehicles since those launches are subject to fewer delays and other conditions. Since the shuttle was going up anyway (for PR and not scientific reasons), they needed to fill it with some kind of payload.

re: #127 Tungsten

My point is not that all risks are bad, but rather that some risks are pointless, and we should not encourage them, especially when the astronauts are deceived into thinking that they are somehow helping their country or mankind by going into space.

re: #163 Ojoe

OK. I make under 40 k these days too.

I would like to see more legislation in place to discourage speculation in the necessities (food shelter clothing energy) too. Because regular lower & middle class people are hit hard by that stuff.

I'm not fond of anti-speculation laws. They can become a club against markets too easily. I'd rather take my chances with the speculator than with the government.

I've never said government always gets it wrong. NASA did an amazing job with Apollo, and there are numerous other examples. I AM an unabashed cheerleader for private space flight. But I'm also a big fan of NASA, and especially the planetary exploration programs.

Hot air heads still at it...

BTW, my husband wants to get me this huge elephant gun, comes in a nifty yellow case, with a compass, blah blah blah; I said, you’re crazy! Leave me the shotgun, I’ll “chamber” a round and then hit the Acorn thug who comes to the door over the head with it…after inviting him in, of course. : )

Annietxgrl on October 24, 2009 at 3:04 AM

...

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. – Thomas Jefferson

long_cat on October 24, 2009 at 4:57 AM

...
etc
/It's too early for me to read this shit.

need.more.coffee...

re: #151 right_wing2

It's one thing when its someone only making 15 or 20k. It's another when we're continually expanding the number of non taxpayers to the largest number possible.

A 17-20% flat tax, with a 10k per person exemption, would eliminate the truly needy from paying taxes, while ending the theft of money from the rest of us (I currently make under 40k).

Don't know if this will be of interest, but Bruce Bartlett has spoken about taxation and democracy in a similar vein. Charles Murray actually argues we're taxed enough already: people get hit with payroll taxes they don't see, the trick is for the government to stop hiding taxes in the era of the income tax.

re: #144 Decatur Deb

Intolerable increase in wardrobe malfunctions.

Hooks and eyes work just fine.

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

The housing bubble, which brings us the current economic mess, could have been prevented by breaks upon speculation in real estate.

Not to eliminate all speculation, but to discourage it.

re: #170 Cato the Elder

Hooks and eyes work just fine.

Yeah, fuck progress.

Anyone see where I left my buggy-whip?

re: #159 MandyManners

It's disappointing that our generation's great space adventure did
not generate more great art and music. Of course there's the
"Concerto for the X-15" and:

re: #171 Ojoe

The housing bubble, which brings us the current economic mess, could have been prevented by breaks upon speculation in real estate.

Not to eliminate all speculation, but to discourage it.

How about not selling houses to people who cannot afford the mortgages?

re: #172 MandyManners

Yeah, fuck progress.

Anyone see where I left my buggy-whip?

In the Bedroom?
I am in some much trouble...Good Morning Mandy...
*wink*

re: #134 Tungsten

While I don't disagree that there should be a robust unmaned component, the fundemental question is why do all the research to see what is out ther if we never go there ourselves?

The research will determine if there is any reason for us to spend vast sums and to take the risk of sending people all the way to Mars. Manned missions should be the last stage of a very long term research program.

re: #170 Cato the Elder

Hooks and eyes work just fine.

Except when they don't make the band of the bra long enough to cover the hook to keep it from digging into one's spine when one leans back in the chair.

Not that I want velcro there either.

We need more undergarment engineers!

re: #177 wrenchwench

Except when they don't make the band of the bra long enough to cover the hook to keep it from digging into one's spine when one leans back in the chair.

Not that I want velcro there either.

We need more undergarment engineers!

I'll try to link the classic "Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown",
from the '60s. And that wasn't the real Ventures.

Nasa and Amerika is WUNDERBAR! Rammsteins, Amerika:

re: #177 wrenchwench

Except when they don't make the band of the bra long enough to cover the hook to keep it from digging into one's spine when one leans back in the chair.

Not that I want velcro there either.

We need more undergarment engineers!

I'm willing to do R&D...Somebody has too

Gotta' go take The Kid to his PW game. The fastest wide receiver made Honor Roll this period and scored the highest in the district on those standardized tests. I'm just thrilled. That principal who wanted to retain him last year can kiss my ass.

re: #177 wrenchwench

Except when they don't make the band of the bra long enough to cover the hook to keep it from digging into one's spine when one leans back in the chair.

Not that I want velcro there either.

We need more undergarment engineers!

"We need more FEMALE undergarment engineers!"
There fixed that for you.

Am I the only woman who thinks that shopping for bras is actually what purgatory (if you think it exists) is like?

re: #57 shimoda

A question to any Lizard still awake.

I am reasonably well acquainted with European history but I know that I lack understanding and knowledge about American (USA) history. Can you recommend a good book/books that would fill that gap. I'm talking about the period from independence until the civil war.
I'm not looking for American history for dummies but I'm also not a professional historian so I do not need anything with more footnotes than text.

Any suggestions?

I can't think of any book off the top of my head that covers that period in its entirety - I'll ask around or go on Amazon and look. For right now:

Arthur Schlesinger's "The Age of Jackson" is considered to be a bit tendentious, and it certainly is too long, but is important reading for that period.

Harry Jaffa's "Crisis of the House Divided" does a very nice job talking about Lincoln-Douglas and a lot of the events that led up to that. Studying Lincoln's own career covers a lot: it highlights the problems with Jacksonian democracy and, of course, slavery.

You need something that'll cover the early Presidencies - Adams' Presidency is not unimportant. Jefferson's "Autobiography" isn't a bad place for Jefferson, obviously. I can't think of anything covering the War of 1812 or Monroe.

re: #174 MandyManners

And also not inflating the price of houses to where people cannot afford the price.

It is a loop.

re: #177 wrenchwench

Here 'Tis (I hope).[Link: komplexify.com...]

Good morning! Any Lizards down Puerto Rico way? This is one hell of a fire. Reminds me of the Buncefield disaster outside of London in '05:

[Link: edition.cnn.com...]

Buncefield supplied 50% of the jet fuel to Heathrow and led to rationing for the airlines, cancelled flights, etc. Total costs was around 1 billion Pounds:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #184 Ojoe

And also not inflating the price of houses to where people cannot afford the price.

It is a loop.

And the loop continued - the RE Agents and lenders made bank off of every sale.

re: #181 MandyManners

Gotta' go take The Kid to his PW game. The fastest wide receiver made Honor Roll this period and scored the highest in the district on those standardized tests. I'm just thrilled. That principal who wanted to retain him last year can kiss my ass.

Hope he proves himself a future Devin Hester. Not Terrell Owens, cause he's a jerk.

re: #180 HoosierHoops

Check out my avatar pic for evidence of great engineering!

re: #182 webevintage

"We need more FEMALE undergarment engineers!"
There fixed that for you.

Am I the only woman who thinks that shopping for bras is actually what purgatory (if you think it exists) is like?

I was trying on bras once, and in the next changing room, another woman was getting a consultation from an expert fitter and a sales person. They measured her, then looked at what size she had been wearing, which was way too big, apparently. They started laughing, saying "Get this woman a t-shirt!"

So I've never had one of those consultations.

re: #177 wrenchwench

Except when they don't make the band of the bra long enough to cover the hook to keep it from digging into one's spine when one leans back in the chair.

Not that I want velcro there either.

We need more undergarment engineers!

Velcro, after all, is nothing but lots of little hooks and eyes. It's the sound it makes that I can't stand.

I'm holding out for smart laces.

re: #129 SixDegrees

Manned missions to the moon and Mars, in my opinion, don't hold much in the way of actual value, but maintaining the ability to mount such missions seems important.

"Seeming important" IMHO, doesn't justify the massive expenditures and risks associated with a manned mission to Mars. That kind of investment should be reserved for projects which are actually important.

re: #178 Decatur Deb

Requires cutting the cloth on a 45 degree bias.

re: #187 Stanley Sea

motherfuckers.

re: #191 Cato the Elder

Velcro, after all, is nothing but lots of little hooks and eyes. It's the sound it makes that I can't stand.

I'm holding out for smart laces.

I've always wanted to be in a stadium in which everybody rips open some velcro at the same time.

Curious story that seems to be ignored by the MSM. Last Sunday an islamic slaughterhouse was raided in a small town and nobody is talking.

The FBI is still refusing to release more information about Sunday's raid on an Islamic slaughterhouse along the La Salle-Grundy County line in Kinsman, but The Times has learned one of the slaughterhouse's operators is in federal custody in Chicago.

Tahawar H. Rana, 48, Chicago, is listed as president of First World Management Services, which is the corporation that owns the Kinsman facility, according to state records. Tahawar H. Rana, 48, is also listed as being held at the federal jail in Chicago; the name was not listed there a few days ago. A Chicago FBI spokeswoman said Thursday she could neither confirm nor deny Rana was in custody. A spokesman for the federal prosecutor's office in Chicago said he had no records related to Rana being in custody. A spokesman for the federal jail could not be reached.

Another operator of the slaughterhouse is 51-year-old Dr. Hyed Samid. This week The Times called Samid's Chicago attorney, George Jackson III, but Jackson declined to comment, adding if the situation changed, he would comment. According to information provided by Jackson's law firm, Jackson focuses on defending clients in white-collar crime investigations and prosecutions. Additionally, among the particular fields he covers are commercial matters, employer immigration issues, export enforcement and the export and import of military-related material and services.

Witnesses said at least 100 federal agents and other police officers raided the Kinsman slaughterhouse, which is near a railroad line, but the FBI said no arrests were made Sunday at the facility. Kinsman has a population of about 110. The FBI further said the raid was done to execute a search warrant and was part of an investigation. Besides the FBI, agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement and officers from other agencies participated. Investigators from the U.S. Department of Agriculture were at the facility Monday.

The Kinsman facility has been used for the slaughter of goats and other livestock according to Islamic dietary laws. Rana is also listed as operating an Islamic food company in Chicago.

re: #182 webevintage

"We need more FEMALE undergarment engineers!"
There fixed that for you.

Am I the only woman who thinks that shopping for bras is actually what purgatory (if you think it exists) is like?

How about the guy that stands there holding all the bags in the Bra dept?
It's embarrassing..And I don't even know why...
Do you like this one?
It's White
So?
It's not black and all silky and shit..
Do you like this one?
I like all bra's..Why purple?
What do you have against Purple?
( It's at this point you know all the ladies are listening in the Bra Dept...)
I dunno It's not all black and silky and shit...
(rest assured..Men love bra's..They just hate the Bra Dept)
Ok.. I like purple..
You suck hoopster

Ferrari 330 P

BBL

re: #174 MandyManners

How about not selling houses to people who cannot afford the mortgages?

I can remember when we bought or house in the 1990 we were approved for close to a $90,000 loan, but we knew that we could only afford the payments on a $70,000 loan.

Oh, we were sooo tempted to go for the nicer house in a nicer neighborhood. If it had been my decision...well, luckily my husband is pretty tight with the money and we got the nice $75,000 2 family flat. The agent was so disappointed, he just knew we would regret it since our income and worth of the place would go up.
Of course less then 3 years later there was a transfer for us and we had to sell fast.
Glad my husband pinches the pennies.

re: #129 SixDegrees

[...] Manned missions to the moon and Mars, in my opinion, don't hold much in the way of actual value, but maintaining the ability to mount such missions seems important. [...]

In case Mars actually decides to attack?

re: #182 webevintage

"We need more FEMALE undergarment engineers!"
There fixed that for you.

Am I the only woman who thinks that shopping for bras is actually what purgatory (if you think it exists) is like?

I don't know, but I'm a man who thinks any clothes shopping at all is pure hell.

re: #192 aagcobb

"Seeming important" IMHO, doesn't justify the massive expenditures and risks associated with a manned mission to Mars. That kind of investment should be reserved for projects which are actually important.

Unfortunately for such absolutist positions, they're ridiculous. There is no absolute measure of the benefit of any activity, spaceflight or otherwise, manned or unmanned. Not everyone is interested in couch potatohood.

re: #190 wrenchwench

So I've never had one of those consultations.

I've always wanted to do that but figure I would not be able to afford the type/odd size of bra I truly need.
I.Hate.Shopping.For.Bras.

re: #197 HoosierHoops

(snip) d silky and shit...
(rest assured..Men love bra's..

Do you like shiny red boxes more than chocolates?

re: #200 Cato the Elder

In case Mars actually decides to attack?

Or vice versa. / It's impossible to predict what may become compelling in the future.

Gak! The CNN website has a Bold New Look that puts it in a determined race to the bottom already established by the RNC.

Obama declares swine flu a national emergency

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I said it yesterday, this is going to be Obama's Katrina.

re: #206 SixDegrees

Gak! The CNN website has a Bold New Look that puts it in a determined race to the bottom already established by the RNC.

Holy shit, what a mess.

re: #157 Decatur Deb

Don't mean to dismiss the visionaries, but I despise the "government always
does it wrong" theme. That's nothing but conservative aesthetics dressed
in fasionable despair.

They really do screw up an awful lot.

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Obama declares swine flu a national emergency

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I said it yesterday, this is going to be Obama's Katrina.

He learns from others. It's politically better to be a month premature
than 5 days late.

re: #210 Decatur Deb

He learns from others. It's politically better to be a month premature
than 5 days late.

Well, they are late. They promised 120 million doses of vaccine by now, they have 16 million.

Granted, the White House is not making the stuff themselves, but they and the CDC are managing this, and they can't do squat right.

And they want a public option?

re: #209 Spare O'Lake

They really do screw up an awful lot.

Yes, they do. It's mostly a function of sheer size. The Feds are not
inherently stupid, evil or corrupt. The incentive
system could also be improved.

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Obama declares swine flu a national emergency

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I said it yesterday, this is going to be Obama's Katrina.

Nothing like creating massive panic when there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. Vaccine production is already running at full capacity, and then some - they've sidelined production of the ordinary, seasonal flu vaccine to ramp up swine production, leaving my area...without either. Brilliant planning. I can't wait until the government is responsible for all of my health care needs.

"Oh, you need a nitroglycerin tablet? Now? Sorry, but there's a bit of a backlog; we should have some in about three weeks. If you have some dynamite you could try sucking on that..."

However, I doubt this will equate to a Katrina-esque moment. Despite issues with FEMA - issues that have come up during every catastrophe during the last several decades - most of the President Bashing that took place following Katrina was media induced rather than real, and flowed from a media establishment that had been drinking Bush Hatorade for years and were more than willing to exaggerate circumstances beyond belief. You're not going to see the same sort of dogpiling on The One - what will most likely happen is that blame will be deflected onto the companies responsible for vaccine production. Although they proceed according to government instructions, they will suddenly be found wanting in their procedures.

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Well, they are late. They promised 120 million doses of vaccine by now, they have 16 million.

Granted, the White House is not making the stuff themselves, but they and the CDC are managing this, and they can't do squat right.

And they want a public option?

I got my flu shot the other day. The nurse said they were supposed to have 600 doses and got 160 instead. They sent someone up to DC to get more and there was a crowd of others doing the same thing when he got there. She also told me they went to do vax for the pig flu at a school a few day before and had a shortage.

/Clusterfuck.

re: #213 SixDegrees

And Mayor Ray "Leave Those Busses Where They Are" Nagin got a pass.

re: #213 SixDegrees

[snip]

...Although they proceed according to government instructions, they will suddenly be found wanting in their procedures.

Well, I can always hope that the actual people responsible for mismanaging this get well recognized and held responsible.

re: #215 Cato the Elder

And Mayor Ray "Leave Those Busses Where They Are" Nagin got a pass.

I remember him hiding in Dallas during the immediate aftermath. Nice leadership.

re: #145 right_wing2

What I'm sick of is the 40% plus in this country who pay no income taxes. Let's go with a flat tax of 17-20%, with generous exemptions, then start slashing government spending on all these unConstitutional projects. Business tax rate- probably in the 10-15% rate.

I'm no economic mastermind, but I think a flat tax sucks. I'd rather do away with all income tax and replace it with a national sales tax with as few exemptions as possible. I'd consider exempting food, housing, and medical expenses.

First off, we'd save a fortune on the annual budget of the IRS itself. The sales tax could probably be administered with 50% or less of the current IRS staff and resources. It would be deliciously ironic to watch certain Republican heads explode as they tried to reconcile lower taxes and smaller government on one hand with the howling complaints of the lobbyists for poor, downtrodden tax preparers and attorneys who would be largely driven out of business.

Second, because people and businesses would only be taxed when they spent money, they would have control over how much they are taxed. Earning more money would no longer be a tax liability by itself. The tax scheme would also transparently integrate into supply-and-demand rather than complicating it.

Certain people who always manage to avoid paying taxes (defense contractors and church-owned, for-profit businesses, for example) would have the privilege of making a glowing debut as cherished contributors to the American tax base. All of the rest of the money in the underground economy (drug dealers, money laundering, etc.) would now be part of the tax base too.

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

Well, I can always hope that the actual people responsible for mismanaging this get well recognized and held responsible.

Things which you do not hope happen more frequently than things which you do hope. ~Titus Maccius Plautus

re: #217 njdhockeyfan

I remember him hiding in Dallas during the immediate aftermath. Nice leadership.

And what happened after Katrina dissipated? The began to seize firearms from law abing citizens.

re: #214 njdhockeyfan

I got my flu shot the other day. The nurse said they were supposed to have 600 doses and got 160 instead. They sent someone up to DC to get more and there was a crowd of others doing the same thing when he got there. She also told me they went to do vax for the pig flu at a school a few day before and had a shortage.

/Clusterfuck.

I'm talking about H1N1, not the normal seasonal virus. There were suppose to be 120 million doses of H1N1 at this time, and they can only account for 16 million.

And you try to find it. Check you country health web page. I can't find any indication in my country as to if they have it, how much they have, and where to get it.

I suspect that we are not getting half the information about how mismanaged this has become.

re: #213 SixDegrees

(snip)
"Oh, you need a nitroglycerin tablet? Now? Sorry, but there's a bit of a backlog; we should have some in about three weeks. If you have some dynamite you could try sucking on that..."

Diversion--
Back in the Day, before good hygiene controls in munitions plants, the
oldtimers would smuggle small amounts of nitro-based filler home for
the weekend. They would sniff or maintain skin contact to prevent a
massive "nitroglycerin headache" caused by weekend withdrawl.

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I'm talking about H1N1, not the normal seasonal virus. There were suppose to be 120 million doses of H1N1 at this time, and they can only account for 16 million.

And you try to find it. Check you country health web page. I can't find any indication in my country as to if they have it, how much they have, and where to get it.

I suspect that we are not getting half the information about how mismanaged this has become.

We need Sheriff Joe Biden on this.
*puke*

re: #219 SixDegrees

Well, actually I don't really do much hoping, I do SOMETHING, as in I'll be all over this subject if this shit keeps up. I will rattle cages, locally and with my state jerk off's in DC.

re: #222 Decatur Deb

Diversion--
Back in the Day, before good hygiene controls in munitions plants, the
oldtimers would smuggle small amounts of nitro-based filler home for
the weekend. They would sniff or maintain skin contact to prevent a
massive "nitroglycerin headache" caused by weekend withdrawl.

Ah, the good old days, before things like rubber gloves, breathing apparatus and eye protection ruined everything.
/

Once again I got the stupid idea that maybe I should have a look over at Hot Air and see if the administrators there had pulled themselves together.

[Link: hotair.com...]

Obviously not.

re: #225 SixDegrees

Ah, the good old days, before things like rubber gloves, breathing apparatus and eye protection ruined everything.
/

Must have made ironing their clothing interesting for the wives.

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

I'm talking about H1N1, not the normal seasonal virus. There were suppose to be 120 million doses of H1N1 at this time, and they can only account for 16 million.

And you try to find it. Check you country health web page. I can't find any indication in my country as to if they have it, how much they have, and where to get it.

I suspect that we are not getting half the information about how mismanaged this has become.

I got an automated message from the school yesterday to my cell phone(I like that technology) saying they were postponing the H1N1 vaccinations scheduled for Monday. No date was given to reschedule.

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

Well, actually I don't really do much hoping, I do SOMETHING, as in I'll be all over this subject if this shit keeps up. I will rattle cages, locally and with my state jerk off's in DC.

Agree that this is a huge clusterfuck. My county ran out of seasonal vaccine three weeks ago, far ahead of schedule, because resources had been diverted to swine flu production - and they haven't received even a single vial of that yet, apparently.

Their advice? Wash your hands, and don't sneeze or cough on people. No indication at all when matters will improve.

re: #227 Decatur Deb

Must have made ironing their clothing interesting for the wives.

Or running them through those pressure rollers to extract water.

re: #223 soxfan4life

We need Sheriff Joe Biden on this.
*puke*

I am...I'm keeping my family off subways, trains, and planes.

re: #231 njdhockeyfan

I am...I'm keeping my family off subways, trains, and planes.

I can't do that, and I've probably waited too long to get my shot. I'll just have to take my chances.

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

I can't do that, and I've probably waited too long to get my shot. I'll just have to take my chances.

We have no subways, trains, or planes in my county. ;)

re: #226 enoughalready

The idiots at Hot Air are really wound up these days.

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

Well, actually I don't really do much hoping, I do SOMETHING, as in I'll be all over this subject if this shit keeps up. I will rattle cages, locally and with my state jerk off's in DC.

Here is a page with updated info on shipments made to each state. Pretty sad that this is what we get for our hope and change.

[Link: www.bellcountyhealth.org...]

re: #234 Killgore Trout

The idiots at Hot Hate Air are really wound up these days.

re: #229 SixDegrees

Agree that this is a huge clusterfuck. My county ran out of seasonal vaccine three weeks ago, far ahead of schedule, because resources had been diverted to swine flu production - and they haven't received even a single vial of that yet, apparently.

Their advice? Wash your hands, and don't sneeze or cough on people. No indication at all when matters will improve.

Let's look at the bright side. We are getting a really good drill for the
very nasty stuff that's down the pike. H1N1 ("Hamthrax" per Wonkette)
is going to extract a price, but Nature doesn't always give a warning
shot.

re: #229 SixDegrees

Agree that this is a huge clusterfuck. My county ran out of seasonal vaccine three weeks ago, far ahead of schedule, because resources had been diverted to swine flu production - and they haven't received even a single vial of that yet, apparently.

Their advice? Wash your hands, and don't sneeze or cough on people. No indication at all when matters will improve.

There's always plastic sheeting and duct tape.

re: #234 Killgore Trout

Absolutely but that one reminded me a LOT about the rhetoric coming from the insaneos in the early-mid-nineties. Only this time its far more wide spread.

re: #236 HoosierHoops

Like a local radio announcer said about another blog, "They've been drinking the Hatorade over there."

re: #62 freetoken

[Video]

Where did you find the two MP3 items?

re: #201 Cato the Elder

I don't know, but I'm a man who thinks any clothes shopping at all is pure hell.

I am a woman who is willing to pay shipping costs and take a chance something won't fit, just to avoid shopping for clothes.
I love the internet.

re: #212 Decatur Deb

Yes, they do. It's mostly a function of sheer size. The Feds are not
inherently stupid, evil or corrupt. The incentive
system could also be improved.

Government too large? Yes, with the exception that the military needs to be substantially expanded NOW.
And I would stipulate that too many of the pols, senior civil servants and union leaders are WILFULLY stupid, evil AND corrupt.

re: #213 SixDegrees

I can't wait until the government is responsible for all of my health care needs.

Then I guess it is a good thing there are no plans to have the government be responsible for all your health care needs.

re: #239 enoughalready

There's a lot more. We'll probably have a Hot Air comment thread here later today.

re: #243 Spare O'Lake

Government too large? Yes, with the exception that the military needs to be substantially expanded NOW.
And I would stipulate that too many of the pols, senior civil servants and union leaders are WILFULLY stupid, evil AND corrupt.

I wasn't.

re: #164 philosophus invidius

stuff

My knee-jerk reaction is to think you're a fairly sophisticated troll.

(And in my view it is nuts to think that we could or ever would want to colonize another planet.)

Foolishly assuming for a minute that you're actually sincere:
1. Describe your conception of a day in the life of a typical human 15,000 years ago.
2. Describe your conception of a day in the life of a typical human 15,000 years from now.
3. Speculate freely about events between the two chronological points.
4. When, if ever, was it nuts to think that we could or ever would want to colonize another continent?

re: #76 The Sanity Inspector

Morning. I'll take a wild guess and assume that this is the first piece for the ophicleide you've heard today:

[Video]

Interesting. If I heard only the audio, I'd say it was a group of trombones with a euphonium thrown in. Can't say I like the vibrato, but that's a continental European brass playing thing.

You'd think they would turn down the volume a bit on his TV commercial sales pitches, now that Billy Mays has been dead for several months.
Sheesh...a little respect for the departed!

re: #213 SixDegrees

You're not going to see the same sort of dogpiling on The One - what will most likely happen is that blame will be deflected onto the companies responsible for vaccine production. Although they proceed according to government instructions, they will suddenly be found wanting in their procedures.

I thought the CDC projections were based on projections from the companies making the vaccines?

Look I have no problem pointing fingers at the current admin if they have fucked up here...

So far Arkansas has gotten 121,000 doses and mass clinics are to be held the 29th - 30th. Of course seeing as how Rush is telling everyone not to get a shot for N1H1 I wonder how poorly attended they will be.

re: #250 webevintage

(snip) Of course seeing as how Rush is telling everyone not to get a shot for N1H1 I wonder how poorly attended they will be.

Ironic if we wind up flushing a few million doses.

re: #249 Spare O'Lake

You'd think they would turn down the volume a bit on his TV commercial sales pitches, now that Billy Mays has been dead for several months.
Sheesh...a little respect for the departed!

BILLY MAYS CANNOT BE PROPERLY RESPECTED UNLESS THE VOLUME IS TURNED UP TO 11.

THOSE WHO WHISPER MIGHT AS WELL DANCE THE FUNKY CHICKEN ON HIS GRAVE.

re: #250 webevintage

I thought the CDC projections were based on projections from the companies making the vaccines?

Look I have no problem pointing fingers at the current admin if they have fucked up here...

So far Arkansas has gotten 121,000 doses and mass clinics are to be held the 29th - 30th. Of course seeing as how Rush is telling everyone not to get a shot for N1H1 I wonder how poorly attended they will be.

Of course CDC made the projections based on info from the companies. But the CDC should have been on top of this as the projections started to miss the mark. They didn't.

The administration has just gone on promising that the doses would be available, even when that had nothing to do with the actual facts on the ground.

The Federal Government is managing this, bottom line, it's their responsibility.