A classic Onionism: Obama’s Declaration Of Swine Flu Emergency Prompts Pro-Swine-Flu Republican Response.
WASHINGTON—Claiming that the president was preying on the public’s fear of contracting a fatal disease last week when he declared the H1N1 virus a national emergency, Republican leaders announced Wednesday that they were officially endorsing the swine flu.
2 |
SeaMonkey Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:35:50pm |
Endorsing the swine flu is almost as bad as palling around with the insurance companies, which I'm looking froward to seeing.
| 4 |
Ojoe Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:39:46pm |
Bacon burger
Ham on cheese on rye
Canadian Bacon and Pineapple on Pizza
Pigs in a blanket
| 5 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:41:11pm |
Ron Paul on H1N1
Of course the Fox story about the Obama daughters is bogus...
Obama Girls Get Swine Flu Shots
The vaccinations are bound to raise questions about whether the Obama girls were given special treatment. The administration is grappling with questions about why the vaccine is not more readily available. Officials, including the secretary of heath and human services, Kathleen Sebelius, say the holdup is with the manufacturers, whose production process has been slower than anticipated.
Of course people are complaining anyways.
| 6 |
Four More Tears Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:43:13pm |
I didn't see the word Onion when I first clicked on it and didn't think anything was out of the ordinary.
| 7 |
Nanook37 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:44:07pm |
I love the line "Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, who urged residents of his state to continue not washing their hands" - classic onion...
| 8 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:45:42pm |
Can't wait 'til swine flu debates the mumps in that televised debate,,,
/
| 9 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:53:13pm |
re: #5 Killgore Trout
Ugh.
"The national emergency is to condition the people..."
"The story is that 1,000 people have died of H1N1. Possibly that's true..."
"The government gets more power to quarantine people..."
Pandering to his nutty base.
| 10 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:53:14pm |
From Maddox, so naturally it's NSFW.
| 11 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:57:03pm |
Letter to the editor...
Comics ‘commie' tool?
After reading Friday's “Dennis the Menace” strip, it occurred to me that Barack Obama's fellow commies in the media are using comics as a tool to remake the U.S. into a Maoist state. It is obvious that having Dennis “volunteer” is the first step toward state-sponsored “activities” for children and then state camp indoctrination. Remember the Khmer Rouge child soldiers?
If the ever-vigilant Michelle Bachmann is right, these same camps will later be used to house all conservatives and Tea Baggers that are to be rounded up by black militants and ACORN activists for opposing Dear Leader Obama. And Dennis spraying water in Mr. Wilson's face? That's a thinly veiled threat about coming elder euthanasia programs that will be part of Obama's takeover of health care.
Wake up, America. Watch Glenn Beck. He can explain all of this much better than I can. Sarah Palin/Joe Wilson in 2012.
Yes, it's real.
| 12 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:57:40pm |
Oh...and for all this talk about NY 23 this week, I immediately assume they're talking about New York Route 23- a highway I've traversed many a time on both the NY and Massachusetts state lines- wether taking in a minor-lague ballgame, going to one of my uncle's favorite pizza places, visiting a tourist railway, seeing various realtives' gravestones or even driving to the Baseball Hall of Fame. Just as worthwhile for seeing the foliage as the Mohawk Train (route 2) in Massachusetts.
I haven't seen an electoral map of the state of NY, so I don't know if the 23rd distict is anywhere near NY Route 23.
| 13 |
Bubblehead II Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:58:36pm |
re: #7 Nanook37
You didn't quote the whole thing.
" Other prominent Republicans opposing Obama's declaration of emergency include Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, who urged residents of his state to continue not washing their hands, and radio host Rush Limbaugh, who made a point of dying of the virus during his show on Wednesday.
I am not a Rush fan by any meaning of the word, but I think that was a bit over the top if you ask me
| 15 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:59:54pm |
| 16 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 12:59:58pm |
re: #13 Bubblehead II
Read more of The Onion. It's par for the course.
| 17 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:01:05pm |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Alex Jones must be pissed about all the competition he's facing lately.
| 18 |
subsailor68 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:02:55pm |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Letter to the editor...
Comics ‘commie' tool?Yes, it's real.
Wake up, America. Watch Glenn Beck. He can explain all of this much better than I can.
This is what happens when irony creeps up and bites ya on the ass. What a dimwit that guy is.
| 19 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:03:12pm |
Holy friggin' crap...what an unwieldy jigsaw piece of upstate NY the 23rd district cover. I thought for sure it would encompass somewhere further downstate like Dutchess or Rockland county.
| 20 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:05:01pm |
re: #17 Slumbering Behemoth
Alex Jones must be pissed about all the competition he's facing lately.
I figure it's a cross-promotional type of deal. Beck et al are the gateway drugs.
| 21 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:05:37pm |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Reminds me of a Flaming Carrot comics story where some communist dictator type takes over and Flaming Carrot and his friends have to rebel against him. One of the things he does is ban Hagar the Horrible comic stips, because "He is horrible!"
| 22 |
subsailor68 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:05:41pm |
re: #19 Fenway_Nation
Holy friggin' crap...what an unwieldy jigsaw piece of upstate NY the 23rd district cover. I thought for sure it would encompass somewhere further downstate like Dutchess or Rockland county.
"We're very pleased with the new shape of the 23rd district," said committee chair Geraldine (Gerry) Mander. "It looks like a fluffy bunny. Aw."
| 23 |
simoom Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:07:16pm |
I thought this was pretty funny too:
Did Schwarzenegger drop 4-letter bomb in veto?
A straight reading of the guv's letter laments "the fact that major issues are overlooked while many unnecessary bills come to me for consideration," and concludes, "I believe it is unnecessary to sign this measure at this time."But a vertical read of the far-left-hand letters in each of the missive's eight lines offers a more blunt explanation: "I f- you."
Schwarzenegger's press secretary, Aaron McLear, insisted Tuesday it was simply a "weird coincidence."
Here's the image of the veto memo:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
| 24 |
peterb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:07:57pm |
It's an indication of where we are nowadays that, when I read an Onion headline, I'm momentarily uncertain as to whether it might be true.
| 25 |
nanook37 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:08:07pm |
re: #13 Bubblehead II
You didn't quote the whole thing.
" Other prominent Republicans opposing Obama's declaration of emergency include Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, who urged residents of his state to continue not washing their hands, and radio host Rush Limbaugh, who made a point of dying of the virus during his show on Wednesday.
I am not a Rush fan by any meaning of the word, but I think that was a bit over the top if you ask me
I didn't quote the whole thing intentionally - I thought the Jindal thing was funny, I didn't think the Rush part was particularity funny - which again is typical classic Onion. When you are trying to do a bunch of jokes in a small amount of text some of them are not going to be funny.
| 26 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:08:07pm |
re: #13 Bubblehead II
re: #14 bosforus
To be fair, I think they had some article where the occupants of an ACLU office were burnt to death by a schizophrenic neo-nazi and ignored Rudy Gulliani's order to evacuate because they didn't want to be seen as endorsing Mayor Guliani's infringement of the neo-nazi's right to free expression.
| 27 |
lawhawk Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:08:31pm |
re: #19 Fenway_Nation
It's one of the largest geographic districts in the nation - and certainly in the Northeast. But it isn't exactly gerrymandered and at least generally conforms to county boundaries, unlike some of the other districts in NY. NY-8, NY-10, and NY-11 come to mind (carving up Brooklyn and NYC like you wouldn't believe).
| 29 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:10:36pm |
re: #26 Fenway_Nation
[Link: www.theonion.com...]
| 30 |
Stanghazi Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:11:25pm |
Here's an Onion-like story I stumbled across: Team Sarah is trying to help The Iowa Family Policy Center (Right to Life) raise enough $$$ to pay Sarah's speaking fee.
[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]
If she was planning on running for office wouldn't she just go to Iowa for free??
| 31 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:12:10pm |
re: #26 Fenway_Nation
Yeah, The Onion spans the spectrum from good political satire to outright cartoonish, for which I am most grateful!
| 32 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:12:42pm |
re: #23 simoom
Can't get too worked up over that...
A) It's kind of funny
B) Didn't one of the state reps tell Ahnuld to 'kiss my ass' prior to the veto? Not classy, but not entirely unprovoked, either.
C) If it were me adressing pretty much anything to a San Franfreakshow pol, I'd make sure there was a big gooey glob of my phlegm enclosed.
| 34 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:14:32pm |
re: #26 Fenway_Nation
My "ixnay" comment was in hopes in quelling any comments that might go down that road and become inappropriate.
| 35 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:14:50pm |
| 36 |
doubter4444 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:14:58pm |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Letter to the editor...
Comics ‘commie' tool?Yes, it's real.
That has to be a parody.
Please
| 37 |
flywheel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:18:24pm |
I can get to LGF at work but The Onion is blocked as an impediment to productivity.
| 38 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:18:40pm |
re: #36 doubter4444
That has to be a parody.
Please
There were about 7 out of a dozen comics on the local page that day that had volunteering themes. If they only knew...
| 39 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:19:09pm |
Its obvious that Obama is only against swine flu because he is a sekrit muslim!
///
| 40 |
doubter4444 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:19:24pm |
re: #37 flywheel
I can get to LGF at work but The Onion is blocked as an impediment to productivity.
Now that's irony!
| 41 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:19:47pm |
re: #37 flywheel
I can get to LGF at work but The Onion is blocked as an impediment to productivity.
Shows what they know.
| 42 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:20:00pm |
re: #37 flywheel
I can get to LGF at work but The Onion is blocked as an impediment to productivity.
They got it half-right.
| 43 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:20:49pm |
Fox News Channel anchor Shepard Smith apologized for a "lack of balance" following a political report where the Republican candidate for New Jersey governor was interviewed and the Democratic incumbent wasn't.
| 44 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:22:47pm |
re: #37 flywheel
I can get to LGF at work but The Onion is blocked as an impediment to productivity.
Bummer. Request a removal of the block and tell them it keeps your moral up.
| 45 |
Nanook37 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:23:45pm |
A couple of my favorite Onion articles from many years ago
Death Star to open Day Care [Link: www.discospock.com...]
and Study Reveals: Babies are Stupid [Link: www.onion.demon.co.uk...]
| 46 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:24:08pm |
re: #44 bosforus
Bummer. Request a removal of the block and tell them it keeps your moral up.
or your morale.
| 47 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:24:23pm |
re: #44 bosforus
Bummer. Request a removal of the block and tell them it keeps your moral up.
I think the LOLCat Bible would keep my moral (and morale) up better than the Onion ;)
| 48 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:25:24pm |
re: #47 bloodstar
I think the LOLCat Bible would keep my moral (and morale) up better than the Onion ;)
Oh noes!!!
| 49 |
flywheel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:25:55pm |
re: #44 bosforus
Bummer. Request a removal of the block and tell them it keeps your moral up.
There actually is an online form for such requests. I'll get on it right away.
| 50 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:26:26pm |
re: #45 Nanook37
A couple of my favorite Onion articles from many years ago
Death Star to open Day Care [Link: www.discospock.com...]
and Study Reveals: Babies are Stupid [Link: www.onion.demon.co.uk...]
| 51 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:26:57pm |
re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
or your morale.
Yeah, let's go with that one. Not sure it's doing much for my morality.
| 52 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:28:16pm |
re: #49 flywheel
There actually is an online form for such requests. I'll get on it right away.
Vaya con Dios!
| 54 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:29:00pm |
re: #47 bloodstar
1 Ceiling Cat iz mai sheprd (which is funni if u knowz teh joek about herdin catz LOL.)
He givz me evrithin I need.2 He letz me sleeps in teh sunni spot
an haz liek nice waterz r ovar thar.3 He makez mai soul happi
an maeks sure I go teh riet wai for him. Liek thru teh cat flap insted of out teh opin windo LOL.4 I iz in teh valli of dogz, fearin no pooch,
bcz Ceiling Cat iz besied me rubbin' mah ears, an it maek me so kumfy.5 He letz me sit at teh taebl evn when peepl who duzint liek me iz watchn.
He givz me a flea baff an so much gooshy fud it runz out of mai bowl LOL.6 Niec things an luck wil chase me evrydai
an I wil liv in teh Ceiling Cats houz forevr.
| 56 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:29:52pm |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Letter to the editor...
Comics ‘commie' tool?Yes, it's real.
They're going all Dr. Strangelove on us. :D
CHILDREN'S ICE CREAM?!?!?!?
| 58 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:33:09pm |
| 59 |
Four More Tears Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:33:52pm |
re: #54 wrenchwench
Heh.
Ezekiel 25:17
Den Sam Jackson said: Teh walkies of the Ceiling Cat beliefer iz fightins an stuff by lotza unfair gredy aholes an George Boosh. Mani cheeborgrz 2 teh beliefer cat cuz of bein nice n stuff 2 helpin kitties thru teh scary plaice. He gud beliefer cat and finden losted kitties an such. Ceiling cat gonna pwn demz who fuk wit my budz. U kno mai name iz Ceiling Cat whe I'z scartchin yo ize out n such. (dere be sum despurting bout dis line, but dis as gud as any Ceiling Cat seeds, so et stayin)
| 60 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:35:47pm |
Genesis 19
Lot iz all "doodz, srsly, crash on my couch." Den He called up teh taco bell ann tey gave it to hiz kitteh.4 All teh drunc doodz went to Lotz place fer teh LOLz5 Teh drunc guyz says to Lot, dood, letz see teh guyz in ur place, we herd dey liek VISIBLE BUTTSEX!
6 Lot goez outside n close teh cat flap.7 He sayz, "oh snap, don't do dat! ewww growss!"8 Lol U can hit my hot daughterz whu r virginz. Let me get em n we kan PENIS GOES WHERE? them. But don't do theze doodz, they iz in mah house.9 Aw no fanks. We iz gonna hit ur door an hav lemmon party. ur gonna get raped fisrt.
| 61 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:35:51pm |
Nation's Morons March On Washington State
OLYMPIA, WA—With random cries of "Enough is enough," "Do something now," and "Huh?" thousands of the nation's biggest morons descended on Washington State this week, some 3,000 miles from their intended destination of the nation's capital.
The march, which had no discernable goal or message, and no official organizers, began at approximately 8:45 a.m. in front of what the morons called the National Mall, but was actually the courtyard outside the Olympia Public Library.
"More government accountability, and transparency, and accountability!" shouted grade-A moron Tammy Caldwell, 37, addressing no one in particular. "On behalf of me, and all the [morons] who came here today, listen up, greedy Washington fat cats: We're not going anywhere until each and every one of our voices is heard."
"To the Lincoln Memorial!" added Caldwell, pointing to a nearby monument dedicated to the memory of Washington State governor John Rankin Rogers.
| 62 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:36:35pm |
re: #56 WindUpBird
They're going all Dr. Strangelove on us. :D
CHILDREN'S ICE CREAM?!?!?!?
I'm still seeing that letter as a student put-on. Remember, Hunter
Thompson was a U of L grad.
| 63 |
lawhawk Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:37:56pm |
re: #58 wrenchwench
And if that isn't a hoot, check out Exodus 34:2 and following, also known as the 10 Commandments.
| 64 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:40:46pm |
Congressman Steve King tells NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell he should either apologize to Limbaugh or make the same criticism to Fergie and JLo.
WTF or heh, I can't decide.
| 67 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:42:41pm |
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy Wealth
Every year children of all ages dress up and celebrate Halloween. And every year, Communism is alive and well in every country that celebrates it.
...
Dissent against trick or treaters is not tolerated. You will be ostracized as a crazy, child hating, anti Halloween ideologue, and the media will probably run stories of you. How dare you not give candy to little children!Hmmm, that sounds oddly familiar to what's happening in our country today. If you dare to have your own opinion of the proposed Communist Healthcare plan, and you stand up for what you believe in, you are deemed a racist, Nazi, and an Astroturfer. Some fear retribution, loss of employment, alienating others, so they quietly protest in their homes, but they are afraid to stand up in public. The same is for those who don’t want their houses toilet papered, egged, or worse. So instead of saying No to Free Candy Handouts, they comply to the threats of the candy dictators.
Yes, it's real.
| 68 |
webevintage Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:43:12pm |
re: #47 bloodstar
I think the LOLCat Bible would keep my moral (and morale) up better than the Onion ;)
I would join a church if this was the bible translation they used.
" Boreded Ceiling Cat makinkgz Urf n stuffs
1 Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem. "
| 69 |
William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:43:52pm |
Those are great. I wonder how my favorite verse comes out...
Micah 6:8
"he has showded u, o kittehs, wut iz gud. An wut doez teh lord want from yuz? 2 be nais, 2 luv givin 2nd chansez An 2 walk humbly wif ur ceilin cat, srsly."
William
| 70 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:45:18pm |
re: #64 wrenchwench
WTF or heh, I can't decide.
Lol!
"I don't think anything Limbaugh said was offensive."
| 71 |
webevintage Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:45:49pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy WealthYes, it's real.
hahahahahahaha
That's priceless.
| 72 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:46:22pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy WealthYes, it's real.
Is the SEIU trick-or-treating this year? These people must spend all
their time in a closet with a can of pepper spray.
| 73 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:48:37pm |
Rifqa Bary back in Ohio
[Link: edition.cnn.com...]
| 74 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:49:11pm |
re: #64 wrenchwench
A real WTF? Our tax dollars at work.
I sure hope they put together a congressional committee to question the local bartender the next time he refuses to sell me another beer.
| 75 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:50:38pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy WealthYes, it's real.
No frickin' way that's real! I don't want to believe it.
| 76 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:51:24pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
And because entitlement is becoming a way of life, millions of people will go door to door, demanding that strangers fulfill their candy needs.
Bwahahaha!
| 77 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:52:35pm |
| 78 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:53:45pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy Wealth
I made a few comments about Halloween being a communist holiday last year, but I was joking. I guess I shouldn't be surprised some people are nutty enough to really believe it.
| 79 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:55:08pm |
re: #73 Thanos
Not sure if you saw my comment earlier, but loon watch has a write up on the cult Rifqa joined:
[Link: www.loonwatch.com...]
| 81 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:56:28pm |
Hmmm...I want to post a link about something, but I'm not sure wether or not I already did on the same topic (this isn't a blogpimp, either) earlier this month. Is there any way to go back and check the spinoffs beyond the 7 day span or should I just post it again?
| 82 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:56:56pm |
Proof of Ceiling Cat
Awgooments For Ceiling Cat
Thees awgooments ar in ur computer, teechin ur mind bout teh Ceiling Cat. They ar gud.
...
Telljunt DezynrCan says "Oh Hai"? Liek who maik teh littrboxz? Liek who putin niec smelly new littr? Sum catz, riet? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Reeel smarty catz, meee-ooowww! Can has rubs bellie? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Niec rubs can has Ceiling Cat. Ceiling Cat has niec littrboxz first anna clumpy littr. Tehn youse catz can has one. Youse skratch, youse sqwat, den youse pee, den youse cover. Niec skratch.
Oh Hai, lookey here! Nawt jus anny littr clump. Who can has maded this niec clumpy pee? Nawt jus anny catz, riet? Must be reeel smarty catz, riet? See? Lookey? Sniffz. Clumpz. Taht splanes it. Ceiling Cat teh Telljunt Dezynr uv reel niec clumpy pee. Ceiling Cat sez so. Srsly. K'Thnxbai.
...
Eeridoosibul ComplexiteeDer iz sum fings dat iz so complicatd dat dey had tu be creeatd, cuz if yu taeks wun pees off, dey not wurks anymoar. Liek, der iz teh sofa, an it iz gud fr sleeping. But if yu taeks teh pillow off, it not gud anymoar! Cleerly, teh sofa cood not evolv. LOLZ. If yu finks teh sofa evolvd, yu iz stoopid. we wearz nawchoes kaythnxbai
| 83 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:57:50pm |
re: #81 Fenway_Nation
Try using the LinkViewer- you should be able to search for any spinoff link.
| 84 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:59:13pm |
Well, just got the Kids' big Christmas present ordered, my shopping is now mostly done.
| 86 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:59:38pm |
re: #78 Sharmuta
I made a few comments about Halloween being a communist holiday last year, but I was joking. I guess I shouldn't be surprised some people are nutty enough to really believe it.
It's a Paulian site. They are nutty beyond anything we can even imagine.
| 87 |
Bubblehead II Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:59:54pm |
re: #73 Thanos
re: #79 Sharmuta
And the Pam predictably has her knickers in a twist about it.
*snip*
"Rifqa then arrived back to Ohio on Tuesday October 27’th. Upon her arrival came a new set of restrictions that her parents and Muslim attorneys have been trying to impose on her from the beginning…solitary confinement! While Rifqa was being protected in Florida, they repeatedly tried to separate Rifqa from other Christians that she leaned on for strength and encouragement. Rifqa’s Muslim parents have been saying from the beginning that they don’t believe that Rifqa became a Christian on her own accord, rather they believe that her real problem is that she has been brain washed by other people through facebook and over the phone."
| 88 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 1:59:57pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Another New World Order plot is uncovered...
Halloween: The Redistribution of Candy WealthYes, it's real.
Christmas: The Redistribution of Tube Sock and Flannel Shirt Wealth.
/And The Prolific Redistribution of Fruit Cake Horrors
| 89 |
Mich-again Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:00:25pm |
re: #67 Killgore Trout
Instead of giving out candy, why don’t you educate people about economics, taxes, big government, and maybe give them a copy of the US Constitution.
Good luck with that..
| 90 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:00:53pm |
re: #83 Sharmuta
Geez- how long was that there? I ususally use the top-rated links @ the top of the page.
| 91 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:02:15pm |
re: #90 Fenway_Nation
The linkviewer is right next door to the flippy triangle for the top rated links, Hon.
| 92 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:04:42pm |
re: #89 Mich-again
Want to get your house egged or TPed October 31st? Follow this handy step by step guide:
1) Hand out copies of the Constitution for Halloween instead of candy.
2) Wait.
| 93 |
Bubblehead II Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:05:18pm |
re: #74 Slumbering Behemoth
Want to see your tax dollars at work?
Costco to accept food stamps nationwide
Now riddle me this, If they are eligible for food stamps, just how in the heck can they afford a membership at Costco?
| 94 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:05:29pm |
| 95 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:05:34pm |
re: #88 Slumbering Behemoth
Christmas: The Redistribution of Tube Sock and Flannel Shirt Wealth.
/And The Prolific Redistribution of Fruit Cake Horrors
My oldest girl's birthday is in January. She knows all about gift redistribution.
| 96 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:05:38pm |
re: #89 Mich-again
A few years ago I was caught off guard by Halloween. I had no candy in the house and the first little girl knocked on the door dressed as a princess. I panicked an put a small handful of pistachios in the little girl's bag. She turned to her mom and said, "I don't want pistachiooos!"
I don't think a pocket Constitution would go over much better.
| 97 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:08:01pm |
Here's the link I was agonizing over (I did post something earlier this month about it, but it went largely unnoticed).
Navajo Code Talker Willard V Oliver Passes at Age 88
"I did not realize that until the code talkers were recognized that all the victories back during the war came about because of our Diné language," he said.
"Sometimes I think about it," he said. "Why did the government want to use our language when throughout BIA school we would get our mouth washed out with soap when they caught us speaking Navajo?
"I am proud to be a code talker," he said. "And I know we counted for something great, and that we fought to maintain our freedom and for our sacred land."
| 98 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:08:50pm |
Hey, great news everybody. The Cash for Clunkers program, which handed out up to $4500 discounts for car purchases, only cost the taxpayers $24,000 per car!
And didn't generate significant increases in sales.
Huzzah!
| 99 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:10:03pm |
re: #98 SixDegrees
I was with some auto dealers today and wondered if any of the ones that participated in the Cash for Clunkers program would ever see dime one from the feds.
| 100 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:10:29pm |
re: #98 SixDegrees
Hey, great news everybody. The Cash for Clunkers program, which handed out up to $4500 discounts for car purchases, only cost the taxpayers $24,000 per car!
And didn't generate significant increases in sales.
Huzzah!
Best of all, it helped bury people further into debt for a depreciating asset. Just like Uncle Same!
| 101 |
Jack Burton Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:11:48pm |
re: #98 SixDegrees
It helps if you read your comment in Professor Farnsworth's voice. You forget about the tax dollar waste for the moment.
| 102 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:12:06pm |
re: #93 Bubblehead II
Now riddle me this, If they are eligible for food stamps, just how in the heck can they afford a membership at Costco?
A $50/year membership fee isn't all that unaffordable, really.
| 103 |
Guanxi88 Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:13:42pm |
re: #102 Slumbering Behemoth
A $50/year membership fee isn't all that unaffordable, really.
Frankly, I'd prefer they bought from such deep-discount vendors whenever possible. nothing pisses me off more than the gas station convenience store with the WIC/Food Stamp stickers on the window. US taxpayer dropping $7.00 a quart for old milk!
| 104 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:17:05pm |
re: #98 SixDegrees
Hey, great news everybody. The Cash for Clunkers program, which handed out up to $4500 discounts for car purchases, only cost the taxpayers $24,000 per car!
And didn't generate significant increases in sales.
Huzzah!
I was just reading about this at Am Thinker as you posted...the BO admin has been very quiet about this and hardly touted the 'success' of C4C...nobody has been on the TV shows or in the papers...looking at the numbers, it appears to be a bust...if not, why don't we celebrate and do it again?
| 105 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:19:26pm |
re: #101 ArchangelMichael
It helps if you read your comment in Professor Farnsworth's voice. You forget about the tax dollar waste for the moment.
LOL!
| 106 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:20:00pm |
re: #96 Killgore Trout
A few years ago I was caught off guard by Halloween. I had no candy in the house and the first little girl knocked on the door dressed as a princess. I panicked an put a small handful of pistachios in the little girl's bag. She turned to her mom and said, "I don't want pistachiooos!"
I don't think a pocket Constitution would go over much better.
Well, here's a heads up:
Halloween is upon us.
Go now, buy candy.
| 107 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:20:13pm |
Does Focus on the Family fund abortions?
As it happens, Focus on the Family provides its employees health insurance through Principal, an insurance company that covers "abortion services." A Focus spokeswoman confirmed the fact that the organization pays premiums to Principal, but declined to comment on whether that amounts to an indirect funding of abortion.
Even if the specific plan Focus uses for its employees doesn't include abortion coverage--and I'm assuming it doesn't--the organization and its employees still pay premiums to a company that funds abortions. If health reform proposals have a fungibility problem, then Focus does as well. And if they don't think they do have a fungibility problem, then it would be interesting to hear why they think the set-up proposed in health reform legislation is so untenable.
| 108 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:20:44pm |
Come to think of it, how many surviving members of the Tuskeegee Airmen or 442nd Infantry regiment are still with us? These guys (and the code-talkers) would've had every reason in the world to proverbially 'sit this one out' given how they had been wronged and marginalized, but they put their asses on the line for this country because they believed in something greater than themselves.
Seems like a far cry from today...
| 109 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:22:12pm |
re: #96 Killgore Trout
A few years ago I was caught off guard by Halloween. I had no candy in the house and the first little girl knocked on the door dressed as a princess. I panicked an put a small handful of pistachios in the little girl's bag. She turned to her mom and said, "I don't want pistachiooos!"
I don't think a pocket Constitution would go over much better.
you're generous...I would never part with my pistachios
| 110 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:23:00pm |
re: #96 Killgore Trout
A few years ago I was caught off guard by Halloween. I had no candy in the house and the first little girl knocked on the door dressed as a princess. I panicked an put a small handful of pistachios in the little girl's bag. She turned to her mom and said, "I don't want pistachiooos!"
I don't think a pocket Constitution would go over much better.
Just hand out Ziploc bags full of sugar.
| 111 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:23:10pm |
re: #106 reine.de.tout
Well, here's a heads up:
Halloween is upon us.
Go now, buy candy.
Not this year. I'll make my mortgage payment with about $75 left in my account this month. I'm going to turn off the lights and hide.
| 112 |
Bubblehead II Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:23:53pm |
| 113 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:24:02pm |
re: #111 Killgore Trout
I'm going to turn off the lights and hide.
If you won't, the electric company will.
| 114 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:24:13pm |
re: #108 Fenway_Nation
Come to think of it, how many surviving members of the Tuskeegee Airmen or 442nd Infantry regiment are still with us? These guys (and the code-talkers) would've had every reason in the world to proverbially 'sit this one out' given how they had been wronged and marginalized, but they put their asses on the line for this country because they believed in something greater than themselves.
Seems like a far cry from today...
Our town lost Sherman Rose (Airman) a year ago. A mural of him, his
students, and a P-51 is opposite our convention center.
| 115 |
wrenchwench Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:24:30pm |
re: #97 Fenway_Nation
Here's the link I was agonizing over (I did post something earlier this month about it, but it went largely unnoticed).
The Navajo tend to be very patriotic Americans. Last time I was on the reservation, I took photos of a Veterans' cemetery that had tons of US flags all over it. The Code Talkers are passing on as fast as the rest of the WWII veterans.
| 116 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:24:51pm |
re: #103 Guanxi88
People who buy their groceries at gas station convenience stores are either crazy, suicidal, or have no car and live a very long way from anything else.
| 118 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:25:50pm |
re: #108 Fenway_Nation
Come to think of it, how many surviving members of the Tuskeegee Airmen or 442nd Infantry regiment are still with us? These guys (and the code-talkers) would've had every reason in the world to proverbially 'sit this one out' given how they had been wronged and marginalized, but they put their asses on the line for this country because they believed in something greater than themselves.
Seems like a far cry from today...
well said...and as an aside, just today I was at a very remote saloon out in the boonies and two Native Americans, a man and a woman, were speaking to each other in their native tongue...it was beautiful and I'd never heard that before...I could not help but stand there and eaves drop a bit
| 119 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:25:51pm |
re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth
People who buy their groceries at gas station convenience stores are either crazy, suicidal, or have no car and live a very long way from anything else.
I do my Xmas shopping at 7-11.
| 121 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:26:59pm |
re: #119 Walter L. Newton
I do my Xmas shopping at 7-11.
A pair of panties folded to look like a rose?
| 122 |
MinisterO Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:27:00pm |
re: #98 SixDegrees
The Cash for Clunkers program, which handed out up to $4500 discounts for car purchases, only cost the taxpayers $24,000 per car!
That's some pretty creative math they do there.
| 123 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:27:27pm |
re: #119 Walter L. Newton
I do my Xmas shopping at 7-11.
Who doesn't love getting Nachos and a pack of smokes for the holidays.
| 125 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:28:11pm |
| 126 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:28:12pm |
re: #121 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
A pair of panties folded to look like a rose?
That was you at the bar after the Christmas party?
| 127 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:29:32pm |
re: #112 Bubblehead II
No apologies necessary, I think. It wasn't like you were being an ass about it.
I think a better Costco related question is: Why the hell did they stop selling Hebrew National hot dogs at their little food court thing?
The new ones are tasty, but they hit my gut like a ton of lead. I can't eat them.
| 128 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:29:35pm |
Now THIS is an endorsement you Guy Lizards will enjoy.
You're welcome.
| 129 |
MinisterO Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:31:25pm |
re: #64 wrenchwench
Congressman Steve King tells NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell he should either apologize to Limbaugh or make the same criticism to Fergie and JLo. WTF or heh, I can't decide.
Wow, tell me again how Rush Limbaugh is the not the head of the GOP.
| 130 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:31:31pm |
re: #115 wrenchwench
The Navajo tend to be very patriotic Americans. Last time I was on the reservation, I took photos of a Veterans' cemetery that had tons of US flags all over it. The Code Talkers are passing on as fast as the rest of the WWII veterans.
there were Comanche code talkers used in WW2 also...a terrific story of all included
| 131 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:31:40pm |
re: #115 wrenchwench
re: #115 wrenchwench
The Navajo tend to be very patriotic Americans. Last time I was on the reservation, I took photos of a Veterans' cemetery that had tons of US flags all over it. The Code Talkers are passing on as fast as the rest of the WWII veterans.
I first heard about the code-talkers in a short Reader's Digest article...probably 15 or 20 years ago. From their own accounts, they needed very little encouragement to enlist after Pearl Harbor- some of them even lying about their age.
I stumbled across a Memorial Day parade for Veterans of the 4 tribes (Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Zuni) on a reservation in Arizona. Some of the Veterans marching in the parade with Mini-14s slung over their shoulders would break ranks, put on armbands identifying them as tribal policemen and relieve the Policemen working the parade route and traffic control.
| 132 |
Kragar Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:32:21pm |
re: #126 Walter L. Newton
That was you at the bar after the Christmas party?
My attorney has me advised me to exercise my 5th amendment rights.
| 133 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:32:35pm |
re: #128 Sharmuta
Now THIS is an endorsement you Guy Lizards will enjoy.
You're welcome.
good god, what a freak
| 134 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:32:55pm |
re: #122 MinisterO
That's some pretty creative math they do there.
Probably. A lot of people are interested in seeing the program fail. Looks like it worked...
GM seen posting sales gain
| 135 |
Political Atheist Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:34:06pm |
re: #128 Sharmuta
Is that real?
The book I mean :)
| 136 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:34:18pm |
re: #128 Sharmuta
I... um... there's this... uh... I lost my train of thought.
| 137 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:35:06pm |
re: #133 albusteve
good god, what a freak
I read about this when she first published the photo. She yanked it the next day, and started whining about how she wasn't a slut, despite what the bulk of her comments claimed.
I would have preferred she just own it.
| 138 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:35:27pm |
re: #135 Rightwingconspirator
IsthatAre they real?
The book I mean :)
That's what you meant to ask and you know it... :P
/
| 139 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:35:30pm |
Want bizaare? Luap NOr is actually Anti Obama H1NI response just like the parody
[Link: www.chron.com...]
| 140 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:35:33pm |
re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth
People who buy their groceries at gas station convenience stores are either crazy, suicidal, or have no car and live a very long way from anything else.
I buy my groceries at a gas station, you insensitive clod!
/
| 142 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:00pm |
re: #134 Killgore Trout
Probably. A lot of people are interested in seeing the program fail. Looks like it worked...
GM seen posting sales gain
No to mention that the Obama administration was also trying to get "clunkers" off the road. They got almost 700,000 such cars destroyed.
| 143 |
Barrett Brown Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:02pm |
re: #129 MinisterO
Wow, tell me again how Rush Limbaugh is the not the head of the GOP.
Don't know if you guys saw the Der Spiegel interview with Charles Krauthammer, but the interviewer suggested that he might very well be the de facto leader of the GOP.
Sadly, that could be somewhat true. Meanwhile, Krauthammer called Obama naive regarding foreign policy. Of course, he said the same of Clinton in 1999 while predicting disaster in Kosovo.
Krauthammer's one of the people I'm going after in my next book. It's going to be an easy book.
| 144 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:08pm |
re: #139 Thanos
Want bizaare? Luap NOr is actually Anti Obama H1NI response just like the parody
[Link: www.chron.com...]
Luap Nor is anti-everything.
| 146 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:18pm |
re: #115 wrenchwench
The Navajo tend to be very patriotic Americans. Last time I was on the reservation, I took photos of a Veterans' cemetery that had tons of US flags all over it. The Code Talkers are passing on as fast as the rest of the WWII veterans.
I had an album of Navajo war songs. Some were a hundred years old,
one was about Korea. It was all very seamless.
| 147 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:33pm |
Wrong Link...
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]
| 148 |
Irenicum Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:36:47pm |
re: #20 Guanxi88
Beck et al as gateway drugs! I'll remember that. Couldn't have said it better myself!
| 149 |
DaddyG Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:38:01pm |
| 150 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:38:14pm |
re: #134 Killgore Trout
Probably. A lot of people are interested in seeing the program fail. Looks like it worked...
GM seen posting sales gain
Mike DiGiovanni, GM's executive director of global market and industry analysis, also told reporters that the payback from the government's Cash for Clunkers rebates that depressed U.S. auto sales in September should be over.
"We're through that for the most part," he said during a sales preview discussion. "We think it paid back in August and September."
what does this jibberish mean in your opinion?...imo this does not resolve the debate at all
| 151 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:38:32pm |
re: #141 Sharmuta
Yes- the book is real.
Well, that book is real, but it is not the one she was holding in the original pic.
| 152 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:39:18pm |
re: #151 Slumbering Behemoth
Well, that book is real, but it is not the one she was holding in the original pic.
She apparently tweeted the pic of her with Max's book.
| 153 |
Bubblehead II Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:39:59pm |
re: #127 Slumbering Behemoth
Thanks.
Don't know about the hot dogs. Been years since we shopped there.
(Empty Nesters)
| 154 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:40:10pm |
re: #142 Baier
No to mention that the Obama administration was also trying to get "clunkers" off the road. They got almost 700,000 such cars destroyed.
Hooray! And if you were the owner trying to sell such a car a-la putting it in your driveway or by the side of the road with a 'FOR SALE' sign in the window and a phone #, you would've been competing directly with a $4500 subsidised rebate from the Gov't!
'Choice & Competiton' as Nancy Pelosi would say [never mind that your competitot can undercut you, write it's own laws and regulations on the fly, etc etc]
/Or maybe it was 'jobs jobs jobs' San Fran Nan said...I can't keep track
| 155 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:40:11pm |
re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth
People who buy their groceries at gas station convenience stores are either crazy, suicidal, or have no car and live a very long way from anything else.
In Detroit, the latter is often the problem. All of the major grocery stores have pulled out of the city over the years, and very large tracts of it are referred to as a "food desert," with party stores being the only place to buy food, and things like fresh meat and produce nowhere to be found unless you count what they shove across the counter at BK or McD's. And there's no public transportation to speak of, either, so in many cases people are simply shut off from access to what so many people take for granted - fresh food at reasonable prices.
| 156 |
Political Atheist Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:40:30pm |
| 157 |
The Sanity Inspector Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:40:36pm |
Drat. I'm too busy to hang out here this evening (EST), but not busy enough to keep from being bored. *sigh*...L8r.
| 158 |
DaddyG Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:41:47pm |
| 159 |
A Man for all Seasons Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:07pm |
Good Afternoon Honcos!
Sharm: Somebody said once that men should have b00bs.. They appreciate them so much more than women..
*wink*
| 160 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:14pm |
re: #154 Fenway_Nation
Hooray! And if you were the owner trying to sell such a car a-la putting it in your driveway or by the side of the road with a 'FOR SALE' sign in the window and a phone #, you would've been competing directly with a $4500 subsidised rebate from the Gov't!
'Choice & Competiton' as Nancy Pelosi would say [never mind that your competitot can undercut you, write it's own laws and regulations on the fly, etc etc]
/Or maybe it was 'jobs jobs jobs' San Fran Nan said...I can't keep track
I agree it is BS, but it was stated goal of the program to get those cars off the road.
| 161 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:18pm |
re: #143 Barrett Brown
And what exactly has 0bama done to prove that he isn't naiive when it comes to foreign policy?
Iran? Honduras? Russia? Israel?
| 162 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:20pm |
re: #142 Baier
No to mention that the Obama administration was also trying to get "clunkers" off the road. They got almost 700,000 such cars destroyed.
According to Edmunds, the delta created by CfC was more on the order of 150k. The remaining cars would have been traded in/sold in the normal course of events, without the CfC incentives.
| 163 |
Barrett Brown Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:29pm |
re: #143 Barrett Brown
Just to clarify as I sort of muddled that comment: what I meant to write is that Krauthammer is, sadly, among the most capable and articulate of the conservative punditry at this point. I didn't mean to imply that he's actually the effective voice of the GOP, as he's obviously not; Rush and Beck and others of their ilk clearly have far more influence.
| 164 |
DaddyG Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:42:59pm |
re: #160 Baier
I agree it is BS, but it was stated goal of the program to get those cars off the road.
But they didn't find the weapons of mass destruction so the program was a failure. //
| 165 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:43:09pm |
re: #163 Barrett Brown
Just to clarify as I sort of muddled that comment: what I meant to write is that Krauthammer is, sadly, among the most capable and articulate of the conservative punditry at this point. I didn't mean to imply that he's actually the effective voice of the GOP, as he's obviously not; Rush and Beck and others of their ilk clearly have far more influence.
I could think of worse people to be de facto voices..
| 166 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:43:58pm |
re: #159 HoosierHoops
Good Afternoon Honcos!
Sharm: Somebody said once that men should have b00bs.. They appreciate them so much more than women..
*wink*
| 168 |
Ben Hur Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:44:35pm |
Well-Known: Public Option, Sotomayor
Little-Known: Cap & Trade, Baucus
| 169 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:44:57pm |
re: #155 SixDegrees
That flat out sucks. I live quite close to a lot of things and, knowing the truth of what you posted, I never take my proximity to such sources for granted.
| 170 |
Ojoe Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:45:08pm |
re: #149 DaddyG
Obviously a show written for morons, by morons.
| 171 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:45:56pm |
re: #163 Barrett Brown
There is a definite lack of reasonable pundits on the right. We're flooded with fringers like beck and malkin and coulter, when we need much more reasonable people like CK and David Frum (and Meghan McCain?) to articulate real conservative principles, and not this theocratic parody of "conservatism" that we're getting spoon fed to the right-wing masses.
| 172 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:46:01pm |
re: #160 Baier
I agree it is BS, but it was stated goal of the program to get those cars off the road.
Huh? I thought the stated goal was to give the auto industry a shot in the arm...
| 173 |
A Man for all Seasons Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:46:39pm |
re: #166 Fenway_Nation
Nice pic...The Pacer's play tonight in Atlanta.. Half the team has injuries...It won't be pretty tonight.
| 174 |
MandyManners Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:46:44pm |
re: #155 SixDegrees
In Detroit, the latter is often the problem. All of the major grocery stores have pulled out of the city over the years, and very large tracts of it are referred to as a "food desert," with party stores being the only place to buy food, and things like fresh meat and produce nowhere to be found unless you count what they shove across the counter at BK or McD's. And there's no public transportation to speak of, either, so in many cases people are simply shut off from access to what so many people take for granted - fresh food at reasonable prices.
Why did grocery stores leave?
| 175 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:46:52pm |
Lizards, I need your help. I am so pissed right now. I just got off the phone with my son, and I'm hyperventilating. He told me that his wife "doesn't believe in vaccinations." I screamed DON'T YOU DARE RISK THE LIVES OF MY GRANDKIDS! YOU TAKE THEM TO A CLINIC THIS INSTANT!
Anyway I came here and clicked on "Resources" but did not find a list of sites for pro-vax. I told my son that I was sending him a bunch of links explaining how dangerous it is not to vaccinate his kids, MY GRANDKIDS.
I did not know my daughter-in-law was this nuts. I don't like to interfere in my kids' family matters BUT DAMN IT, MY GRANDKIDS' LIVES ARE AT STAKE HERE.
Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit.
| 176 |
Killgore Trout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:47:30pm |
re: #150 albusteve
I think he's saying that the cash for clunker program encouraged people to buy so those looking for a new car all jumped in at once. When the program ended sales slowed down temporarily but they're picking back up again.
| 177 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:47:54pm |
re: #162 SixDegrees
According to Edmunds, the delta created by CfC was more on the order of 150k. The remaining cars would have been traded in/sold in the normal course of events, without the CfC incentives.
C4C was just a simple scam to redistribute taxpayer money to people that had no reason to deserve such a deal...of course I wanted it to fail, but how could it if the consideration to get junkers off the road is supposedly the main reason for doing it...and now, after depressing the market in such an unnatural fashion sales are picking up?...good grief, what an interpretation of success
| 178 |
Four More Tears Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:47:54pm |
| 179 |
Barrett Brown Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:48:00pm |
re: #161 Fenway_Nation
And what exactly has 0bama done to prove that he isn't naiive when it comes to foreign policy?
Iran? Honduras? Russia? Israel?
Well, my main point is that Krauthammer is in no position to call into question anyone else's grasp of foreign policy. Having recently read through a decade of the fellow's columns, I've discovered him to have been even more hilariously wrong in his predictions than even Thomas Friedman, who himself declared Putin to be a great reformer back in 2001.
As for Obama, has he perpetrated some foreign policy disaster that I've missed? And would you compare him unfavorably to any of our last several presidents in that regard?
| 180 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:48:18pm |
re: #149 DaddyG
Bishops to issue fatwa as Catholics take to the streets and rampage against HBO
Well- sort of.
The comedian seems fairly stupid, but the show's apologist is even worse.
| 181 |
Ojoe Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:48:35pm |
re: #175 Alouette
Tell him to take her to an old cemetery and show her all the tombstones of infants and children who died very young, and in great numbers, before there were vaccines.
| 182 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:49:08pm |
re: #172 Fenway_Nation
Huh? I thought the stated goal was to give the auto industry a shot in the arm...
re: #172 Fenway_Nation
Huh? I thought the stated goal was to give the auto industry a shot in the arm...
It was meant as a stimulus, as well as to get 'clunkers' off the road.
| 183 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:49:24pm |
re: #175 Alouette
{Alouette}. I will try to find some links for you, but in the meantime, here is LGF's tag viewer:
| 185 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:50:15pm |
re: #181 Ojoe
Tell him to take her to an old cemetery and show her all the tombstones of infants and children who died very young, and in great numbers, before there were vaccines.
I already told him that diptheria and whooping cough are coming back in the UK and Canada, and that his kids MY GRANDKIDS could die.
| 186 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:50:35pm |
A blast from the deep past: Anyone remember the Standing Room Only debates?
[Link: www.library.arizona.edu...]
| 187 |
Ojoe Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:50:50pm |
re: #185 Alouette
Actual tombstones are convincing beyond words.
| 188 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:50:51pm |
re: #173 HoosierHoops
I don't think I've ever set foot in Indiana, but I kinda had that shot pegged as quintessential Indiana- small town symbolized by the water tower & buildings in the background, vital transportation crossroads embodied by the locomotives and passionate about hoops, symbolized by the by the court in the foreground.
I don't normally read that much into pictures of...say...Bettie Paige in her prime.
| 189 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:51:08pm |
Alouette-
From the James Randi Forums, this link has additional links to pro-vax sites.
| 190 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:52:17pm |
re: #182 Baier
It was meant as a stimulus, as well as to get 'clunkers' off the road.
Where exactly was the 'stimulus' if the dealers- already troubled by slumping sales- are left holding the bag for the $4500 rebate?
| 191 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:52:46pm |
re: #174 MandyManners
Why did grocery stores leave?
Lots of different reasons. A few of them: high crime; high insurance; high taxes; widespread poverty; a mandatory "living wage" ordinance forcing them to pay roughly $14.00 per hour (somewhat less, if they offered full medical benefits); open hostility from some quarters who insisted that the chains were another example of white folks exploiting black folks; high utility rates...all manner of negatives that had a huge impact on a business with a razor-thin profit margin to begin with, even in lucrative markets.
| 192 |
MandyManners Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:53:08pm |
re: #175 Alouette
Charles' link to the WSJ on vaccinations.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Tags.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 193 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:53:31pm |
re: #179 Barrett Brown
Well, my main point is that Krauthammer is in no position to call into question anyone else's grasp of foreign policy. Having recently read through a decade of the fellow's columns, I've discovered him to have been even more hilariously wrong in his predictions than even Thomas Friedman, who himself declared Putin to be a great reformer back in 2001.
As for Obama, has he perpetrated some foreign policy disaster that I've missed? And would you compare him unfavorably to any of our last several presidents in that regard?
getting his ass kicked by Putin and the Honduras switcheroo could be considered disasterous for them...was this a trick question?
| 194 |
MandyManners Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:53:40pm |
re: #191 SixDegrees
Lots of different reasons. A few of them: high crime; high insurance; high taxes; widespread poverty; a mandatory "living wage" ordinance forcing them to pay roughly $14.00 per hour (somewhat less, if they offered full medical benefits); open hostility from some quarters who insisted that the chains were another example of white folks exploiting black folks; high utility rates...all manner of negatives that had a huge impact on a business with a razor-thin profit margin to begin with, even in lucrative markets.
I'd get the hell out, too.
| 195 |
Baier Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:55:07pm |
re: #190 Fenway_Nation
Where exactly was the 'stimulus' if the dealers- already troubled by slumping sales- are left holding the bag for the $4500 rebate?
Dude, I'm not arguing with you. My point is that Obama doesn't see this as a failure, in fact he believes it was a raging success. Personally, I think it was idiotic and I think helping the car companies is a huge waste of precious resources.
| 196 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:55:50pm |
re: #179 Barrett Brown
So far, 0bama's demonstrated a willingness to hold a dialogue with thugs and despots with zero preconditions while ignoring or even chiding our allies. In fact, I think he even campaigned on the latter...
| 197 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:57:44pm |
| 198 |
Athens Runaway Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:57:55pm |
OT: Mitt Romney announced that he is not endorsing ANYONE in the NY-23 race.
Score one for sanity.
| 199 |
reine.de.tout Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:58:12pm |
re: #175 Alouette
Lizards, I need your help. I am so pissed right now. I just got off the phone with my son, and I'm hyperventilating. He told me that his wife "doesn't believe in vaccinations." I screamed DON'T YOU DARE RISK THE LIVES OF MY GRANDKIDS! YOU TAKE THEM TO A CLINIC THIS INSTANT!
Anyway I came here and clicked on "Resources" but did not find a list of sites for pro-vax. I told my son that I was sending him a bunch of links explaining how dangerous it is not to vaccinate his kids, MY GRANDKIDS.
I did not know my daughter-in-law was this nuts. I don't like to interfere in my kids' family matters BUT DAMN IT, MY GRANDKIDS' LIVES ARE AT STAKE HERE.
Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit.
Breathe.
Do you know what it is she has against vaccinations?
Need to know that to start finding counterpoints.
| 200 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 2:59:28pm |
re: #197 Alouette
OK thanks.
It's my pleasure. Why shouldn't we let those nice folks at the Randi forums do the research for us? ;)
| 202 |
MandyManners Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:01:41pm |
re: #196 Fenway_Nation
So far, 0bama's demonstrated a willingness to hold a dialogue with thugs and despots with zero preconditions while ignoring or even chiding our allies. In fact, I think he even campaigned on the latter...
Don't forget shaking hands with Khadafi.
| 203 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:02:22pm |
Here's CDC on H1N1
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
and their page on infant immunizations
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
| 204 |
MandyManners Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:03:17pm |
re: #196 Fenway_Nation
So far, 0bama's demonstrated a willingness to hold a dialogue with thugs and despots with zero preconditions while ignoring or even chiding our allies. In fact, I think he even campaigned on the latter...
Oh, and his non-handling of the deaths of Iranian citizens at the hands of ShortShit.
| 205 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:04:27pm |
re: #202 MandyManners
Don't forget shaking hands with Khadafi.
If only we had elected John McCain!
oooh wait...McCain praises Gaddafi
IOKIYAR!
| 206 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:05:37pm |
re: #204 MandyManners
Oh, and his non-handling of the deaths of Iranian citizens at the hands of ShortShit.
did he ever explain his higher tech, less expensive missile defense for the Poles and Czechs?...I don't recall...Putin slapped him from here into next year on that one...support with dealing with Iran?...hahaha!...swing anda miss
| 208 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:06:19pm |
re: #205 WindUpBird
If only we had elected John McCain!
oooh wait...McCain praises Gaddafi
IOKIYAR!
what's McCain got to do with any of this?
| 209 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:06:24pm |
re: #175 Alouette
CNN has a special section devoted to answering questions, concerns, etc. (geared for the United States...) here's the link... Sanja Gupta has repeatedly stated how imperative it is for children (especially young children) to get the vaccination...(here in Canada there have already been a number of children who have died -- one was a hockey player, in top physical health, etc.)
| 210 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:06:41pm |
| 212 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:07:20pm |
re: #175 Alouette
I did not know my daughter-in-law was this nuts. I don't like to interfere in my kids' family matters BUT DAMN IT, MY GRANDKIDS' LIVES ARE AT STAKE HERE.Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit. Shit.
Alouette--
You're getting a lot of good info from the lizards, but DIL's attitude
isn't based on rationality, and probably won't yield easily to reason.
The hard answer is to find the basis of her fear and gently unwind it.
In the meantime, insist on a high level of surveillance. While vax is
the way to go, staying on top of every sniffle will get the kids to
good modern corrective medicine. Be a PITA.
| 213 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:08:09pm |
re: #195 Baier
Dude, I'm not arguing with you. My point is that Obama doesn't see this as a failure, in fact he believes it was a raging success.
OK...I read it as you supporting it, instead of offering up the prospective from the WH.
And there's been an ongoing 'Cash for Clunkers' program for locomotives as well...it offers various railways up to an 80% subsidy on the purchase of 'green goat' or 'genset' locomotives for every older locomotive they strike from the roster.
The catch is, the older locomotives don't have to be scrapped. In fact, there have been instances of large railways like the BNSF retiring dozens of 30-40 year old SD40s in anticipation of an order of locomotives, selling the SD40s off to a leasing company and then immediately leasing them back because the new locomotives aren't being built fast enough.
The other problem is that the 'gensets' and 'green goats' still have some flaws that need to be worked out and are of relatively low horsepower (2000 HP maximum) and only useful in yard or local service, not reigonal or long-distance road service.
| 214 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:08:54pm |
re: #208 albusteve
what's McCain got to do with any of this?
It's an example of how your opinion is outside the mainstream. The implication that Obama has failed because he shook hands with Khadafi, when in actuality both parties are willing to be diplomatic.
Personally, I'm not afraid of diplomacy. I agree with Barret Brown above, I don't consider diplomacy a failure.
| 215 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:10:51pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
It's an example of how your opinion is outside the mainstream. The implication that Obama has failed because he shook hands with Khadafi, when in actuality both parties are willing to be diplomatic.
Personally, I'm not afraid of diplomacy. I agree with Barret Brown above, I don't consider diplomacy a failure.
what diplomacy are you referring to?...and I've not mentioned Khadafi
| 216 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:12:03pm |
re: #214 WindUpBird
So...0bama being courteous to Ghadaffi or tHugo Chavez should overshoadow his being dismissive and snide to Gordon Brown or John Howard?
/Jayzus J-damn Christ, we have the prime ministers of Canada and France using more forceful and unambiguous language against despotic and terrorist-sponsoring regimes than this administration.
| 217 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:13:40pm |
re: #215 albusteve
what diplomacy are you referring to?...and I've not mentioned Khadafi
Maybe it was Mandy who said that. And I'm referring to Obama meeting Khadafi face to face. Diplomacy!
"Diplomacy: The art and practice of conducting negotiations between representatives of groups or states."
| 218 |
Sharmuta Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:14:34pm |
Crank up the outrage generator:
Obama inks defense bill with hate crimes provision
Trumpeting a victory against careless spending, President Barack Obama on Wednesday signed a defense bill that kills some costly weapons projects and expands war efforts. In a major civil rights change, the law also makes it a federal hate crime to assault people based on sexual orientation.
The measure expands current hate crimes law to include violence based on gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability. To assure its passage after years of frustrated efforts, Democratic supporters attached the measure to the must-pass defense policy bill over the steep objections of many Republicans.
I fully expect the usual suspects to be outraged. Stacy McCain is likely red in the face as we speak.
| 219 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:15:01pm |
re: #217 WindUpBird
Maybe it was Mandy who said that. And I'm referring to Obama meeting Khadafi face to face. Diplomacy!
"Diplomacy: The art and practice of conducting negotiations between representatives of groups or states."
what's that got to do with being on the wrong side of the Honduras issue or folding like a napkin to Putin?
| 220 |
freetoken Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:16:15pm |
re: #216 Fenway_Nation
/Jayzus J-damn Christ, we have the prime ministers of Canada and France using more forceful and unambiguous language against despotic and terrorist-sponsoring regimes than this administration
Don't you think that is quite intentional? In the big picture, one of the worries/complaints about the previous approach to foreign policy was that the continuous burden on the US to play the "cop" in these situations meant that our allies often got a free ride from taking on the harder responsibilities. It would be very much in keeping with the goals of multilateral and international peace-keeping to encourage nations like Canada and France to play the harder line than they have in the previous decade or two.
| 221 |
Randall Gross Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:16:19pm |
Let me try that last post again since it has a ph number in it, and those usually get yanked:
Where can I get more information?
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
[Link: www.cdc.gov...]
* American Academy of Pediatrics
[Link: www.aap.org...] External Web Site Policy
* The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
[Link: www.vaccine.chop.edu...]
* Immunization Action Coalition (IAC)
[Link: www.immunize.org...] External Web Site Policy
* Every Child By Two
[Link: www.ecbt.org...] External Web Site Policy
| 222 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:16:22pm |
re: #218 Sharmuta
Crank up the outrage generator:
Obama inks defense bill with hate crimes provision
I fully expect the usual suspects to be outraged. Stacy McCain is likely red in the face as we speak.
so what exactly is a hate crime and how is it different from a crime?
| 223 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:17:12pm |
re: #222 albusteve
so what exactly is a hate crime and how is it different from a crime?
I prefer love crimes.
| 224 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:17:19pm |
re: #218 Sharmuta
Crank up the outrage generator:
Obama inks defense bill with hate crimes provision
I fully expect the usual suspects to be outraged. Stacy McCain is likely red in the face as we speak.
Several house republicans voted against the entire bill because of that one section, Bohner included. Way to support the troops guys.
| 225 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:17:59pm |
re: #218 Sharmuta
If 'Hate Crimes' are a federal case, then so should making false claims along those lines.
| 226 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:18:14pm |
| 227 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:18:21pm |
re: #216 Fenway_Nation
So...0bama being courteous to Ghadaffi or tHugo Chavez should overshoadow his being dismissive and snide to Gordon Brown or John Howard?
/Jayzus J-damn Christ, we have the prime ministers of Canada and France using more forceful and unambiguous language against despotic and terrorist-sponsoring regimes than this administration.
John Howard? The guy-who-is-not-in-office John Howard? And it's a lot easier for Canada to talk big, they're not exactly a superpower. Forceful language is great when it's useful, but if it's actually counterproductive to our goals, what good is it?
| 228 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:20:24pm |
“I cannot vote for the Defense Authorization bill with this hate crimes legislation attached to it, this is radical, social policy. It’s offensive to me and a lot of my members, that’s why I will vote no and will urge my colleagues to vote no,” Boehner said at his weekly press conference.
| 229 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:21:04pm |
re: #224 Conservative Moonbat
Several house republicans voted against the entire bill because of that one section, Bohner included. Way to support the troops guys.
why was it imbeded?...why not a stand alone vote?...to weak?...I hate that shit...what's hate crime got to do with funding troops, or vice versa?
| 230 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:21:37pm |
re: #227 WindUpBird
Downding for that, asshole.
Canada's military has suffered more per-capita casualties in Afghanistan than the US or UK. Whatever their feelings are on the matter, they've more than earned their right to speak out.
Don't you ever fucking forget that.
| 231 |
webevintage Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:22:15pm |
re: #219 albusteve
what's that got to do with being on the wrong side of the Honduras issue or folding like a napkin to Putin?
So is Russia not involved in negotiations with Iran?
| 232 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:23:27pm |
re: #231 webevintage
So is Russia not involved in negotiations with Iran?
that's not an answer, that's a question
| 233 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:23:53pm |
re: #222 albusteve
so what exactly is a hate crime and how is it different from a crime?
One thing I've read several times (last in a comment by iceweasel) that makes a lot of sense to me is that a hate crime is both the actual crime and an act of terrorism, because it is designed (and actually works) to scare the population into following certain political or moral or religious believes the perpetrator has. Say, gay bashing is both an assault and an attempt to scare gays into hiding using violence, thus terrorism.
| 234 |
freetoken Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:24:52pm |
re: #233 suchislife
I'm not sure it is terrorism (though I guess it could be), but there is an element of making a social statement that goes along with the classic "hate" crimes.
| 235 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:08pm |
re: #222 albusteve
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
| 236 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:29pm |
re: #219 albusteve
what's that got to do with being on the wrong side of the Honduras issue or folding like a napkin to Putin?
What would you have proposed Obama do differently when it came to Russia? Talk tough, order them to do something against their interests and have negotiations shut down? Should we invade Georgia? Should we have ourselves another Cold War? Pine for those old days of Reagan, when Rocky beat Ivan Drago...
You seem to want magical results from Obama immediately on everything. As if he were a genie, and that he can just wave his magic wand, wiggle his nose and thaw out Russian relations overnight. I suspect your confirmation bias against Oabam is overwhelming.
| 237 |
simoom Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:35pm |
re: #222 albusteve
so what exactly is a hate crime and how is it different from a crime?
The perpetrator in a hate crime targets the victim because of their membership in a certain group. As the crime's motive itself is deemed damaging to the individual, the group they are a member of, and society as a whole, the penalty is more severe.
| 238 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:37pm |
re: #230 Fenway_Nation
From today's news:
at 17:24 on October 28, 2009, EDT.
Jonathan Montpetit, THE CANADIAN PRESS
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - A bloody week for coalition forces in Kandahar got worse Wednesday when a Canadian soldier was killed and two others injured by an improvised explosive device in the ever-hostile Panjwaii district.Lt. Justin Garrett Boyes, 26, of 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Light Infantry based in Edmonton, Alta., was only 10 days into his second tour in Afghanistan when his foot patrol was struck by the blast 20 kilometres southwest of Kandahar city.
Boyes was leading a platoon tasked with mentoring Afghan National Police officers at the time of the explosion. The two other casualties were treated at the Role 3 Hospital at Kandahar Airfield and are listed in good condition.
| 239 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:47pm |
re: #228 Conservative Moonbat
It's hard to see this as "radical social policy" in any light. I don't care much for the legislation myself, because the crimes it covers are already crimes, and the pressure for every self-identifying group to carve out it's own "special" protections seems to me to lead inevitably toward a Federally-controlled criminal system, with state powers usurped.
But "radical social policy"? I don't think so. This is a mouthful of buzzwords intended to deflect and inflame, not to stake out a rational, thoughtful position. Is there something wrong with arguing that such legislation inevitably weakens Federalism and moves control of the legal system farther away from the citizens affected by it?
| 240 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:50pm |
re: #233 suchislife
One thing I've read several times (last in a comment by iceweasel) that makes a lot of sense to me is that a hate crime is both the actual crime and an act of terrorism, because it is designed (and actually works) to scare the population into following certain political or moral or religious believes the perpetrator has. Say, gay bashing is both an assault and an attempt to scare gays into hiding using violence, thus terrorism.
so who decides that?...how does one determine the difference between a stick-up and terrorism?
| 241 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:25:57pm |
re: #233 suchislife
Also, I read that one important goal of hate crime legislation is that to distinguish these crimes and record them explicitly sheds some light on how prevalant they are, where and how they occur.
| 242 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:26:22pm |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
Motive?
| 243 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:26:38pm |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
It's a matter of intent but I know arguing this is pointless.
| 244 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:27:15pm |
re: #240 albusteve
Well, did you read the proposed hate crime legislation?
| 245 |
webevintage Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:27:46pm |
re: #232 albusteve
that's not an answer, that's a question
Sorry.
It sounded like you were inferring from your question that Russia has stepped back and gone back on whatever deal they made. I was just asking since I had not heard that, but thought this were still moving along.
| 246 |
simoom Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:27:49pm |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
It would only be a hate crime in this example if it could be proved that anti-gay bias motivated the killing.
| 247 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:27:53pm |
re: #179 Barrett Brown
Well, my main point is that Krauthammer is in no position to call into question anyone else's grasp of foreign policy. Having recently read through a decade of the fellow's columns, I've discovered him to have been even more hilariously wrong in his predictions than even Thomas Friedman
True dat. And being more wrong than Friedman is quite the feat.
(I guess it's not really Friedman's fault though. He's just getting his insights from the wrong cabdrivers...)
| 248 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:28:32pm |
re: #227 WindUpBird
Oh...and 0bama had alot to say about John Howard and Australia's troops when Howard was still PM.
| 249 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:28:38pm |
re: #230 Fenway_Nation
Downding for that, asshole.
Canada's military has suffered more per-capita casualties in Afghanistan than the US or UK. Whatever their feelings are on the matter, they've more than earned their right to speak out.
Don't you ever fucking forget that.
You have 100% avoided my point, puffing up your chest like a ruffled rooster because you know I'm correct. They're not a superpower. They. Are. Not. Our country is most of their economy. They are DEPENDENT on us. A dependent. Like a child. No matter how many troops they lose, that doesn't magically make them a superpower.
So don't you ever forget that. A prost to masculine bluster!
| 250 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:30:12pm |
re: #249 WindUpBird
I don't think any dependent is 'like a child'.
| 251 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:30:45pm |
re: #246 simoom
It would only be a hate crime in this example if it could be proved that anti-gay bias motivated the killing.
So, anti-gay made it more heinous.
thanks!
| 252 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:31:40pm |
re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
What do you think about the idea that attempted behavioral change through terror is an additional crime?
| 253 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:31:48pm |
re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
So, anti-gay made it more heinous.
thanks!
Yeah, but your example was all things being equal, in which, a hate crime did not occur in either of your two scenarios.
| 254 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:32:03pm |
re: #248 Fenway_Nation
Oh...and 0bama had alot to say about John Howard and Australia's troops when Howard was still PM.
And he wasn't president then. He was campaigning. Presidents have different responsibilities than Senators!
it's just like albusteve, you don't want to acknowledge the realities of campaigning for president. Campaigns are full of shit. A steady stream of it. From both parties, every election, since time immemorial.
| 255 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:32:03pm |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
no...explain it to mere: #236 WindUpBird
What would you have proposed Obama do differently when it came to Russia? Talk tough, order them to do something against their interests and have negotiations shut down? Should we invade Georgia? Should we have ourselves another Cold War? Pine for those old days of Reagan, when Rocky beat Ivan Drago...
You seem to want magical results from Obama immediately on everything. As if he were a genie, and that he can just wave his magic wand, wiggle his nose and thaw out Russian relations overnight. I suspect your confirmation bias against Oabam is overwhelming.
we should have put the missile defense system in east Europe like we promised...instead we stiffed our allies, the Poles and Czechs, for Putins help with the Iran situation...who gained what?...Putin has an obvious interest in Iran bullying America and the EU...and why all the histrionics about invasions etc?
| 256 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:32:16pm |
re: #249 WindUpBird
Oh please. So, tell us, we (Canada) cuts off the oil supply to the United States-- and go look up the stats while you're at it, if you don't realize yet who is your major oil and gas supplier (that's Canada -- not S. ARabis or any other middle eastern country) -- and tell us who's in a state of "dependency."
| 257 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:33:04pm |
| 258 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:33:13pm |
re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
But don't get me wrong, I'm not in opposition to hate crime legislation.
| 259 |
Ojoe Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:33:25pm |
One could argue that the hate crime idea violates equal protection.
| 260 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:33:43pm |
re: #257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Buh he started it! :D
| 261 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:33:51pm |
OT: "DETROIT - Federal authorities said a leader of what they described as a nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni Islam group was fatally shot Wednesday during an FBI raid in the Detroit area."
| 262 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:34:14pm |
re: #233 suchislife
One thing I've read several times (last in a comment by iceweasel) that makes a lot of sense to me is that a hate crime is both the actual crime and an act of terrorism, because it is designed (and actually works) to scare the population into following certain political or moral or religious believes the perpetrator has. Say, gay bashing is both an assault and an attempt to scare gays into hiding using violence, thus terrorism.
OK. But the current state of affairs is special protections extended to a laundry-list of disparate special interest groups. If terrorism is the basis, then these individual, group-oriented bills are pointless; a finding that the crime was intended to instill terror in any reasonable sense extends such protections to any and all cases, not simply those particular favored groups on The List.
If I get beaten to a pulp for being Irish, that's presumably every bit as much a hate crime as being beaten to a pulp because I'm gay. But there's no special protection for the Irish on the books, so I'd be out of luck pursuing such charges against my attacker. And if I manage to get such legislation passed, it doesn't do any good if, on another occasion, I get beaten to a pulp because of my Scottish heritage. Or later on, my German heritage. And so on.
It's easy to perceive this as simple pandering for votes, although my earlier criticism - that it represents a corrosion of Federalism - is of greater concern.
| 263 |
freetoken Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:34:21pm |
re: #256 J.S.
You might not be aware of this... but to get oil from the west of Canada to the east of Canada the flow goes through the US... not to mention the reimportation of refined product...
/just saying...
| 264 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:34:23pm |
re: #237 simoom
The perpetrator in a hate crime targets the victim because of their membership in a certain group. As the crime's motive itself is deemed damaging to the individual, the group they are a member of, and society as a whole, the penalty is more severe.
how is that determined?...if you mug someone and kill them, how would the perp know his victim was gay?...and if he did, you'd consider it terrorism...not going for it
| 265 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:34:34pm |
re: #255 albusteve
I don't know. I would think that they are both equally bad.
| 266 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:35:44pm |
re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I don't know. I would think that they are both equally bad.
I think they are both equally good.
///
| 267 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:35:57pm |
re: #252 suchislife
Burning a cross in someone's yard. Hate crime.
Murder? Murder.
Assault? Assault.
etc.
| 268 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:36:00pm |
re: #259 Ojoe
One could argue that the hate crime idea violates equal protection.
yes, exactly, and not much of an argument...sounds more like pandering to me
| 269 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:36:31pm |
re: #239 SixDegrees
It's hard to see this as "radical social policy" in any light. I don't care much for the legislation myself, because the crimes it covers are already crimes, and the pressure for every self-identifying group to carve out it's own "special" protections seems to me to lead inevitably toward a Federally-controlled criminal system, with state powers usurped.
On the other hand it provides a mechanism for the feds to step in and prosecute in cases where the locals refuse to do so, much like civil rights violations.
| 270 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:36:36pm |
re: #263 freetoken
True. However, to quote from a former Premier of Alberta -- let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark...(lol...and the "dependency" meme shrinks ever smaller).
| 271 |
TedStriker Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:36:56pm |
re: #254 WindUpBird
Were you born a smug, condescending prick or have you had to practice at it?
/asshole...
| 272 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:37:10pm |
re: #259 Ojoe
Do argue that point, please. I say it's equal protection. It's protection from unequal persecution. You didn't actually buy that lie that the mere fact of being gay, e.g., makes a crime against you a hate crime?
| 273 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:37:11pm |
re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
So, anti-gay made it more heinous.
thanks!
It's not the anti-gay that makes it more heinous. It's the attempt to send a message to/intimidate all members of a certain group that makes hate crimes a special class of crime: they are attempts at sending a message that goes beyond the individual victim, to everyone else who shares that victim's targeted characteristic, whether it's race, religion, sexual orientation.
That's the rationale behind considering them a special class of crime.
| 274 |
freetoken Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:37:44pm |
re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
There are more than one crime often being committed in any given physical setting. Your hypothetical situation is just that - an idealized case. In the real world, where individuals may be attacked for a variety of reasons, there is reason to believe that certain groups get attacked as an expression of hatred towards a specified group. Examples usually given include homosexuals and racial/ethnic minorities.
| 275 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:38:07pm |
re: #269 Conservative Moonbat
On the other hand it provides a mechanism for the feds to step in and prosecute in cases where the locals refuse to do so, much like civil rights violations.
Exactly so. That's one of the reasons it's most necessary, frankly.
| 276 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:38:54pm |
re: #255 albusteve
we should have put the missile defense system in east Europe like we promised...instead we stiffed our allies, the Poles and Czechs, for Putins help with the Iran situation...who gained what?...Putin has an obvious interest in Iran bullying America and the EU...and why all the histrionics about invasions etc?
You think the Poles wanted that shit in their front yards? My understanding is that the average Pole was averse to the idea because it made them a target when they wouldn't have been one before.
| 277 |
simoom Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:39:04pm |
re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
So, anti-gay made it more heinous.
thanks!
Do you have a problem in general with crimes having differing penalties based on the motive or state of mind of the perpetrator? For example manslaughter versus first or second degree murder.
As to why hate crimes are considered more heinous, I'll quote from the justification section of the Wikipedia article as it's decent:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Justifications for harsher punishments for hate crimes focus on the notion that hate crimes cause greater individual and societal harm. It is said that, when the core of a person’s identity is attacked, the degradation and dehumanization is especially severe, and additional emotional and physiological problems are likely to result. Society then, in turn, can suffer from the disempowerment of a group of people. Furthermore, it is asserted that the chances for retaliatory crimes are greater when a hate crime has been committed.
| 278 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:39:06pm |
re: #271 talon_262
Lots and lots of practice, really. Started on BBSes in the 80's, and it was all downhill from there!
| 279 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:39:07pm |
re: #273 iceweasel
See my 267. Ice, we'll hash this out all day, and at the end of the day we'll still disagree, but there will be hash left.
Then, what will we fill the bong with?
Love ya!
| 280 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:39:17pm |
re: #249 WindUpBird
Your point was basically 'Canada has no legs to stand on' and should be seen and not heard because they don't have superpower status. Harper and Sarkozy are using the tone regarding the mullahs, the post-election crackdown and the nuclear program that I would've preferred the White House used...(Y'know- 'shooting unarmed demonstrators stuck in traffic bad'). But hey...let's shift the argument from what Canada and France have to say re: Iran and the mullahs to 'well- they aren't superpowers, so fuck 'em'.
Yet...I'm sure you were singing a different tune when Chretien or Chirac were in opposition to the Iraq war.
| 281 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:39:44pm |
re: #273 iceweasel
It's not the anti-gay that makes it more heinous. It's the attempt to send a message to/intimidate all members of a certain group that makes hate crimes a special class of crime: they are attempts at sending a message that goes beyond the individual victim, to everyone else who shares that victim's targeted characteristic, whether it's race, religion, sexual orientation.
That's the rationale behind considering them a special class of crime.
I understand the rationale, I just disagree with it...trying to read someones mind about sending messages is simply not the role of the prosecutors
| 282 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:40:01pm |
re: #267 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did you at all read what I wrote? Burning a cross, hate crime. Murder? is murder. Murder, while making it clear that you murder that person for being gay, and that other gay people should fear the same? murder AND hate crime.
| 283 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:40:10pm |
| 284 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:41:52pm |
re: #276 Conservative Moonbat
You think the Poles wanted that shit in their front yards? My understanding is that the average Pole was averse to the idea because it made them a target when they wouldn't have been one before.
why would that make them a target?...if they were that would certainly be offensive and even more reason to have a defense system in place...Putin argued a strawman and BO ate it up
| 285 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:42:42pm |
re: #284 albusteve
And refresh my memory- what did the US and NATO get in return?
| 286 |
bosforus Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:42:48pm |
I should have the freedom to murder whomever I want without fear of it being mistakenly identified as a hate crime by some outrageously over sensitive progressive know-it-all!
/
| 287 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:43:04pm |
re: #262 SixDegrees
OK. But the current state of affairs is special protections extended to a laundry-list of disparate special interest groups. If terrorism is the basis, then these individual, group-oriented bills are pointless; a finding that the crime was intended to instill terror in any reasonable sense extends such protections to any and all cases, not simply those particular favored groups on The List.
If I get beaten to a pulp for being Irish, that's presumably every bit as much a hate crime as being beaten to a pulp because I'm gay. But there's no special protection for the Irish on the books, so I'd be out of luck pursuing such charges against my attacker. And if I manage to get such legislation passed, it doesn't do any good if, on another occasion, I get beaten to a pulp because of my Scottish heritage. Or later on, my German heritage. And so on.
It's easy to perceive this as simple pandering for votes, although my earlier criticism - that it represents a corrosion of Federalism - is of greater concern.
That 'laundry list' is not based on money or something, it's based on which groups are actually systematically discriminated against and persecuted. that's why the Irish are not on it, although way back, when they were considered colored (not a coincidence) they would have been.
| 288 |
davinvalkri Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:43:33pm |
Yay, the Onion shoots everybody! This is how you do good (in horrible taste) comedy!
| 289 |
Racer X Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:44:18pm |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A gay man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street: wrong place/wrong time.
A straight man is beaten to death because he is walking down the street; wrong place/wrong time.
You can't see which is the more heinous crime?
Equally wrong.
Unless it is proven that the gay man was targeted because he was gay. Then it is a hate crime. Same as if a victim is targeted for being black, or white, or asian, or whatever. Hate is hate.
| 290 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:44:44pm |
re: #281 albusteve
I understand the rationale, I just disagree with it...trying to read someones mind about sending messages is simply not the role of the prosecutors
But that's the fearmongering meme behind opposition to hate crimes legislation: that it will result in creating a category of 'thought crime'. It won't. Not every assault on a gay person (for example) is a hate crime. Some clearly are.
In any case, it very often is central already to prosecution (and defense) that a determination about a person's state of mind be made-- it makes the difference between premeditated murder and justifiable homicide/murder in self defense, etc. Lots of others crimes as well.
| 291 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:45:16pm |
re: #281 albusteve
I understand the rationale, I just disagree with it...trying to read someones mind about sending messages is simply not the role of the prosecutors
In a lot of cases there's evidence, for example anti-Semitic literature in the home of the guy who shot the guard at the Holocaust Memorial or whatever it was.
| 292 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:45:20pm |
re: #273 iceweasel
It's not the anti-gay that makes it more heinous. It's the attempt to send a message to/intimidate all members of a certain group that makes hate crimes a special class of crime: they are attempts at sending a message that goes beyond the individual victim, to everyone else who shares that victim's targeted characteristic, whether it's race, religion, sexual orientation.
That's the rationale behind considering them a special class of crime.
And yet the current legislation is very explicitly about extending protections to gays - not to any other group. If the crime is intimidation of some sort of group, then such protections ought to be extended to all, with the focus shifted from the particular target back to intent. Instead, we are creating a patchwork of special protections for very specific groups who happen to command the most public attention at the moment - or who are considered an attractive voting block deserving of political favoritism.
Again: If I get beaten because I'm Polish, that's every bit as heinous as if I'm beaten for being black. But under current legislation, there's no special protection extended to me as a Pole. So it's bad to beat people up with their blackness as an underlying motivation, but it's OK to do exactly the same when their Polish ancestry is the motivation?
I think it's obvious why people aren't happy with this sort of thing. It certainly appears that some folks are more equal than others.
| 293 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:45:28pm |
re: #282 suchislife
Did you at all read what I wrote? Burning a cross, hate crime. Murder? is murder. Murder, while making it clear that you murder that person for being gay, and that other gay people should fear the same? murder AND hate crime.
oh please...murder displays hate, wouldn't you say?...you are splitting hairs so fine, nobody could determine hate from passion from love from guilt from natural born killer
| 294 |
simoom Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:45:49pm |
re: #264 albusteve
how is that determined?
As with other crimes where motive or state of mind can lead to charges with stiffer penalties, it is determined by whether or not the prosecutor can convince a jury of your peers to find you guilty.
| 295 |
Walter L. Newton Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:45:56pm |
re: #289 Racer X
Equally wrong.
Unless it is proven that the gay man was targeted because he was gay. Then it is a hate crime. Same as if a victim is targeted for being black,
or white,or asian, or whatever. Hate is hate.
| 296 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:47:08pm |
| 297 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:47:35pm |
Yay! More peeps saw my link to the Navajo Codetalker's obituary this time around. Still up there under the 'Military' category if anybody's interested.
/I linked to the tribal newspapers webite- more thorough write-up on his life.
| 299 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:47:54pm |
re: #256 J.S.
Look. This is turning into some big nationalism thing, which is silly. The fact is we are 77% of Canada's export economy. Canada sure isn't 77% of our exports! We sure do buy your oil, and that's great. But it would be far more difficult for Canada to reconfigure its economy if we stopped trading. And if you mistakenly think I'm some Canada basher, you really ought to see my CD collection.
My point stands: no matter how many troops Canada loses, they are not the prime mover when it comes to international relations. They didn't invade Iraq, we did. They didn't invade Afghanistan, we did. For better or for worse. They can more easily speak out because of this. This is simple logic.
You compared Canada to the US, saying Canada can speak more forcefully on these matters. I said why that is, and then you blew up at me.
| 300 |
Racer X Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:48:19pm |
re: #292 SixDegrees
Excellent point.
Instead of "hate crime" legislation, there should be "hate crime" punishment. To be taken into consideration with ANY crime.
| 301 |
freetoken Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:48:36pm |
re: #287 suchislife
I agree. If it could be shown that today people of Irish descent are more likely to be a victim of an attack then it would make sense that Irish-ness be added to a list of possible targets of hate crimes.
For example, take this article: Hate Crimes Against Gays and Lesbians Rising in US I can't vouch for the research described in that article - it's not a subject about which I keep studied... but I picked it because there is reason to believe that certain groups in society are victimized more than others, in personal violence.
I believe that "hate" crimes legislation is intended to address this social phenomenon, and not to diminish the nature of punishing equivalent crimes in general.
| 303 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:48:44pm |
re: #291 Conservative Moonbat
In a lot of cases there's evidence, for example anti-Semitic literature in the home of the guy who shot the guard at the Holocaust Memorial or whatever it was.
Yeah...but the fucker's in his 80s- where's the deterrent in that?
/I understand the rationale, but that's not the best example.
| 304 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:49:19pm |
re: #287 suchislife
That 'laundry list' is not based on money or something, it's based on which groups are actually systematically discriminated against and persecuted. that's why the Irish are not on it, although way back, when they were considered colored (not a coincidence) they would have been.
Believe it or not, there are people who still discriminate against the Irish - and just about any other group you'd care to name or even invent for yourself. If motivation is the problem, then having special legislation protecting against crimes motivated by any sort of enumerated characteristics inevitably discriminates against those not on the list, even though the underlying motivation is precisely identical with the sole exception of the particular group involved.
| 305 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:50:04pm |
re: #262 SixDegrees
If I get beaten to a pulp for being Irish, that's presumably every bit as much a hate crime as being beaten to a pulp because I'm gay. But there's no special protection for the Irish on the books, so I'd be out of luck pursuing such charges against my attacker. And if I manage to get such legislation passed, it doesn't do any good if, on another occasion, I get beaten to a pulp because of my Scottish heritage. Or later on, my German heritage. And so on.
.
If it can be proven that you were a victim because of your ethnicity, it can be prosecuted as a hate crime. The law doesn't specify specific ethnicities as covered.
| 306 |
Sol Berdinowitz Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:50:18pm |
re: #264 albusteve
how is that determined?...if you mug someone and kill them, how would the perp know his victim was gay?...and if he did, you'd consider it terrorism...not going for it
It is a problem I have with hate crime legislation: suppose a gang member kills another gang me´mber of a drug deal gone bad. One member is black, the other white or chicano.
Is that gang violence, drug violence or a hate crime? The racial/social motivation should play a role in the sentencing, but not in the definition of the crime itself.
Burning a cross in a yard can be seen within existing legislation not only as vandalism and endangerment, but with threatening violence. Serious enough crimes in themselves.
| 307 |
theheat Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:50:27pm |
re: #290 iceweasel
Doesn't the bill specify hate crimes as being against color, race, religion, and/or sexual persuasion? It isn't specifically/only to protect homosexuals, that I remember.
| 309 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:50:55pm |
re: #304 SixDegrees
Link please, to systematic discrimination. Also, you do realise that ethnicity is in there?
| 310 |
bratwurst Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:51:21pm |
re: #308 bosforus
cola!
I am addicted to those damn things...better than smoking, but my dentist is not thrilled with me.
| 312 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:52:29pm |
re: #291 Conservative Moonbat
In a lot of cases there's evidence, for example anti-Semitic literature in the home of the guy who shot the guard at the Holocaust Memorial or whatever it was.
so what?...a guy is sentenced for beating up a Jew...another guy gets a stiffer sentence for beating up a Jew because he has anti-Semetic literature?...I don't get it...give them both the stiffer sentence...problem solved and all the dickin around with who hates who is no longer an issue
| 313 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:52:50pm |
re: #299 WindUpBird
Look. This is turning into some big nationalism thing, which is silly. The fact is we are 77% of Canada's export economy. Canada sure isn't 77% of our exports! We sure do buy your oil, and that's great. But it would be far more difficult for Canada to reconfigure its economy if we stopped trading. And if you mistakenly think I'm some Canada basher, you really ought to see my CD collection.
My point stands: no matter how many troops Canada loses, they are not the prime mover when it comes to international relations. They didn't invade Iraq, we did. They didn't invade Afghanistan, we did. For better or for worse. They can more easily speak out because of this. This is simple logic.
You compared Canada to the US, saying Canada can speak more forcefully on these matters. I said why that is, and then you blew up at me.
Another point: Canada is still going to sell that oil into the world market, unless they're interested in cratering their own economy. Which means we're going to wind up buying it anyway, perhaps with a tiny markup because of a slightly longer route, through some secondary dealer. It's a global marketplace; there's really no effective way for any supplier to "shut off" their supply of oil to one particular country, or region, without a complete cessation of production that deprives the entire world of their supply - and deprives that country of it's entire oil revenue.
| 314 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:53:10pm |
re: #299 WindUpBird
'Nationalism' has nothing to do with it. American born and raised and US Army Vet.
Canada's been punching above it's weight in Afghanistan and I don't care if it's Fox news or the White House...I'm not going to keep quiet when somebody wants to crap all over an ally that's been contributing tangibly to our military in that part of the world.
| 316 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:53:21pm |
re: #294 simoom
As with other crimes where motive or state of mind can lead to charges with stiffer penalties, it is determined by whether or not the prosecutor can convince a jury of your peers to find you guilty.
state of mind and motive are not the same thing
| 317 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:53:25pm |
re: #292 SixDegrees
And yet the current legislation is very explicitly about extending protections to gays - not to any other group.
I think it's obvious why people aren't happy with this sort of thing. It certainly appears that some folks are more equal than others.
The legislation will extend important protections to victims of violent hate crimes committed based on a person's actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender, gender identity and/or disability. It also strengthens existing hate crimes protections for a variety of other categories, including race, color, religion, national origin and ethnicity.
You're hearing a lot about the sexual orientation aspect of the bill because the gay rights groups (correctly) consider it a major victory, and the wingnuts are focusing on that aspect, hysterically claiming that it's about 'special rights' for gay people. It is not.
It's a recognition that certain groups are targeted for hate crimes. Not all are. In the 19th century the Irish would have been included in such legislation. (and the early 20th, I think). In the 21st century, they don't need to be.
| 318 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:53:39pm |
re: #280 Fenway_Nation
Your point was basically 'Canada has no legs to stand on' and should be seen and not heard because they don't have superpower status. Harper and Sarkozy are using the tone regarding the mullahs, the post-election crackdown and the nuclear program that I would've preferred the White House used...(Y'know- 'shooting unarmed demonstrators stuck in traffic bad'). But hey...let's shift the argument from what Canada and France have to say re: Iran and the mullahs to 'well- they aren't superpowers, so fuck 'em'.
Yet...I'm sure you were singing a different tune when Chretien or Chirac were in opposition to the Iraq war.
I was against invading Iraq from the beginning, period. I remain opposed to it. So? That doesn't mean I'm blind to the realpolitik of conseqences being different for different countries when they make strong statements condemning other nations. Whose problem is Iran? Is Iran more our problem, or is it more Canada's problem?
It's not that they have NO leg to stand on, they just have shorter legs. Their circumstances are different. I'm not saying "fuck 'em" I'm saying simply that you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare Canada's tone to the US.
| 319 |
Velvet Elvis Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:54:29pm |
re: #307 theheat
Doesn't the bill specify hate crimes as being against color, race, religion, and/or sexual persuasion? It isn't specifically/only to protect homosexuals, that I remember.
It's an addition to hate crime legislation already in place dealing with race, ethnicity, and religion.
| 320 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:54:56pm |
re: #293 albusteve
You do realize that "hate crime" is an established phrase meaning a certain thing? This in no way means that other crimes are not motivated by hate.
| 321 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:55:17pm |
re: #305 Conservative Moonbat
If it can be proven that you were a victim because of your ethnicity, it can be prosecuted as a hate crime. The law doesn't specify specific ethnicities as covered.
My point still stands, though, because I can easily construct groups - like homosexuals, for example - that aren't ethnic. And from there, I can construct groups that aren't defined by sexual orientation, or by any other enumerated factor. The end result is always discrimination against those not on the list, because they are offered unequal protection under the law.
Better to craft the law so it applies to all rather than some.
| 322 |
Racer X Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:55:56pm |
Pretend you are a criminal. You are going to commit violence against someone. Would this law sway you against your planned act?
Or does the law simply deal with punishment?
| 323 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:56:16pm |
re: #314 Fenway_Nation
'Nationalism' has nothing to do with it. American born and raised and US Army Vet.
Canada's been punching above it's weight in Afghanistan and I don't care if it's Fox news or the White House...I'm not going to keep quiet when somebody wants to crap all over an ally that's been contributing tangibly to our military in that part of the world.
Jesus Krypton. Where did I ever disparage Canada's contributions? You're answering arguments I'm not making, you're replying to questions I have not asked.
I'm not crapping over anyone, I'm stating a simple fact, that their circumstances are not the same asours, and their responsibilities with respect to international relations are not as great as ours as a nation.
How can you argue with that?
| 324 |
SixDegrees Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:56:30pm |
re: #317 iceweasel
You're hearing a lot about the sexual orientation aspect of the bill because the gay rights groups (correctly) consider it a major victory, and the wingnuts are focusing on that aspect, hysterically claiming that it's about 'special rights' for gay people. It is not.
It's a recognition that certain groups are targeted for hate crimes. Not all are. In the 19th century the Irish would have been included in such legislation. (and the early 20th, I think). In the 21st century, they don't need to be.
Already addressed; see above.
| 325 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:56:54pm |
And now bird runs errands. Peace Audi!
| 326 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:57:50pm |
re: #321 SixDegrees
If you can show that another marker such as ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation is a cause for systematic persecution, go ahead and lobby to get it added to the bill.
| 327 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:57:52pm |
re: #307 theheat
Doesn't the bill specify hate crimes as being against color, race, religion, and/or sexual persuasion? It isn't specifically/only to protect homosexuals, that I remember.
Yes, sorry, hadn't seen your comment before I answered that.
| 328 |
Vicious Babushka Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:58:04pm |
re: #209 J.S.
CNN has a special section devoted to answering questions, concerns, etc. (geared for the United States...) here's the link... Sanja Gupta has repeatedly stated how imperative it is for children (especially young children) to get the vaccination...(here in Canada there have already been a number of children who have died -- one was a hockey player, in top physical health, etc.)
Do you have a link for Canadian children's disease stats? My son lives in Canada.
| 329 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:58:31pm |
re: #306 ralphieboy
It is a problem I have with hate crime legislation: suppose a gang member kills another gang me´mber of a drug deal gone bad. One member is black, the other white or chicano.
Is that gang violence, drug violence or a hate crime? The racial/social motivation should play a role in the sentencing, but not in the definition of the crime itself.
Burning a cross in a yard can be seen within existing legislation not only as vandalism and endangerment, but with threatening violence. Serious enough crimes in themselves.
why not cut to the chase and recognize the hate element in all these crimes and mete out the harshest sentence possible...what's the problem with that?
| 330 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 3:59:20pm |
re: #326 suchislife
It's not inequality under the law to recognice that some groups need special consideration so they can have the same opportunities.
| 331 |
theheat Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:00:32pm |
re: #319 Conservative Moonbat
Thanks, and I read iceweasel's last, also. That's what I thought. I'd read links about it in the past day or so from so many places, I wondered if I'd missed a key piece of information.
| 333 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:01:18pm |
re: #329 albusteve
The problem is that it's not about the 'hate element', it's about a certain hate, namely, the (eliminationist) hatred of a group due to a non significant marker. But that's too long, so people say 'hate crime'.
| 334 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:01:32pm |
re: #321 SixDegrees
My point still stands, though, because I can easily construct groups - like homosexuals, for example - that aren't ethnic. And from there, I can construct groups that aren't defined by sexual orientation, or by any other enumerated factor. The end result is always discrimination against those not on the list, because they are offered unequal protection under the law.
That is false. Victims of assault aren't any less protected under the law simply because we recognise that some assaults also
fall afoul of another law.
| 335 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:02:04pm |
re: #320 suchislife
You do realize that "hate crime" is an established phrase meaning a certain thing? This in no way means that other crimes are not motivated by hate.
I do and I disagree with the intention...maybe I should be more clear...all felons deserve the harshest penalty when violence is involved, and imo the sentences are too light...we need more prisons, not lighter sentences
| 336 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:02:08pm |
re: #314 Fenway_Nation
'Nationalism' has nothing to do with it. American born and raised and US Army Vet.
Canada's been punching above it's weight in Afghanistan and I don't
And they bury them well:
| 337 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:03:02pm |
re: #335 albusteve
And this leads you to oppose hate crime legislation??
| 338 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:04:06pm |
re: #337 suchislife
And this leads you to oppose hate crime legislation??
yes...I consider it bullshit
| 339 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:04:54pm |
re: #322 Racer X
Pretend you are a criminal. You are going to commit violence against someone. Would this law sway you against your planned act?
Or does the law simply deal with punishment?
It's well known that the death penalty isn't a deterrent, but proponents of it would argue it's not purely about punishment, but about justice.
Suppose we established that laws were never a deterrent, ever. That wouldn't mean the best society should dispense with them, or that they aren't needed. Laws exist as much for the law abiding members of a society as they do for the ones who break them-- perhaps even more so.
| 340 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:05:03pm |
albusteve
Also, are you at all aware of this:
'The United States puts 0.7 % of its population in Prison - a vastly higher percentage than any other nation.'
[Link: www.nationmaster.com...]re: #335
| 341 |
Fenway_Nation Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:05:13pm |
re: #332 J.S.
Thank the guys in Princess Pat's or JTF 2 should you see them...
/Or the guys from any number of units who's name escapes me right now.
| 343 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:09:09pm |
re: #335 albusteve
And I don't mean to pile on, but I really hate this oversimplifying quantitative approach. You don't think that maybe, some penalties are too harsh whereas others are too easy? Just punish everyone harder, is that the idea?
| 344 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:09:15pm |
re: #340 suchislife
albusteve
Also, are you at all aware of this:
'The United States puts 0.7 % of its population in Prison - a vastly higher percentage than any other nation.'
[Link: www.nationmaster.com...]
yes, so what?...we have a lot of criminals
| 345 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:10:14pm |
re: #344 albusteve
You think America has a higher percentage of people who should be in prison than any other nation? How do you explain that?
| 346 |
albusteve Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:10:19pm |
re: #343 suchislife
And I don't mean to pile on, but I really hate this oversimplifying quantitative approach. You don't think that maybe, some penalties are too harsh whereas others are too easy? Just punish everyone harder, is that the idea?
no, punish violent criminals harder...where do you get this stuff?
| 347 |
suchislife Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:13:25pm |
re: #346 albusteve
Ok, I see you specified violent in your comment. You know, this always moves so fast! Is there something else I misrepresented? Still the point stands: punish every violent offender harder? What's wrong with distinguishing between different cases?
| 348 |
iceweasel Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:21:54pm |
re: #347 suchislife
Ok, I see you specified violent in your comment. You know, this always moves so fast! Is there something else I misrepresented? Still the point stands: punish every violent offender harder? What's wrong with distinguishing between different cases?
And different classes of victim? We punish the rape of a child differently than we do the rape of an adult.
| 349 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:25:42pm |
re: #328 Alouette
My computer went on the blink there -- anyway, there was a Survey back in 2002 to determine who was and was not vaccinated in Canada. It was a national survey...(the number of children going un-vaccinated is increasing.)
Here's one link ..somewhat old, on Pertussis -- Vaccine preventable disease..
| 350 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:28:54pm |
re: #341 Fenway_Nation
So are you actually going to acknowledge that in no way was I "crapping on our allies"?
Just curious.
| 351 |
J.S. Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:29:34pm |
re: #328 Alouette
Another problem, btw, is that if they're in Ontario, then in order to have the children enter school, vaccinations are mandatory...have to have the proof of your child's vaccinations in order to enter public schools or daycares.
| 352 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Oct 28, 2009 4:32:21pm |
re: #350 WindUpBird
Except for referring to Canada as a child. That was pejorative. The rest stands, though!
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