Scozzafava Bails

GOP candidate Dede Scozzafava has bowed out of the NY-23 race, leaving religious right/tea party candidate Doug Hoffman nearly tied with Democrat Bill Owens.

The far right (led by James Dobson, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann, etc.) is testing its grip on the Republican Party with Hoffman’s candidacy. At this point it looks like a death grip.

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321 comments

1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:19:38am

Schism is becoming a chasm.

2 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:19:44am
The far right (led by James Dobson, Rick Santorum, Michele Bachmann, etc.) is testing its grip on the Republican Party with Hoffman’s candidacy. At this point it looks like a death grip.

I might also bail.

3 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:20:21am

re: #2 wrenchwench

I might also bail.

The Modern Whig Party is looking better and better, I have to admit.

4 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:21:03am

wow.
Why?
Not that you guys want the vote split, but wow...people don't really know anything about him nor has he been in a debate or...wow.

5 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:21:08am

The theo-con bullies got their way and pushed another RINO aside in their dogmatic quest to make the GOP their sole possession. Purges only serve to strengthen the other party. The democrats were able to take back Congress by accepting the fact that in some districts liberal democrats wouldn't win where a Blue Dog would. Until the GOP accepts their RINOs, they can continue to expect the RINO wing of the GOP to take them at face value that we're not wanted.

6 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:23:45am

Didn't Steele just endorse her?

7 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:23:50am

re: #3 reine.de.tout

The Modern Whig Party is looking better and better, I have to admit.

I spent a few years working on third party stuff. Got nowhere in the end. Why not have some conservatives take over the Democratic Party? They already have some power, we just need to guide it.

P.S. This is what the Paulians are doing with the Repubs.

P.P.S. I started already; I put the "ic" on the Democrat Party!

8 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:24:20am

The Great Doubling Down has commenced.

9 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:25:02am

Here's hoping the Dems welcome her and other RINOs in.

10 anubis_soundwave  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:25:18am

I guess I won't be able to vote in 2010 or 2012; my only choices are shaping up to be Democrats or theocrats.

Here's "hoping" that sanity will prevail among conservatives, and indies(independents) like me can return.

11 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:25:18am

Radical leftist GOP candidate Dede Scozzafava quits
- Michelle Malkin

12 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:25:32am

re: #5 Sharmuta

. . . Until the GOP accepts their RINOs, they can continue to expect the RINO wing of the GOP to take them at face value that we're not wanted.

No need to take it at face value - they've been quite clear they want the "RINOS" gone.

13 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:10am

re: #6 Racer X

Didn't Steele just endorse her?

Why should that matter? The theo-cons got to him too:

National Republican Congressional Committee Chairman Pete Sessions (R-Texas) told POLITICO Thursday that he would welcome Hoffman “with open arms.” On Friday, Republican National Committee chairman Michael Steele told POLITICO that a Hoffman victory is essentially a Republican Party victory.

source

14 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:28am

re: #6 Racer X

Didn't Steele just endorse her?

No, the opposite, in fact.

15 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:32am

RINOs are radical leftists? Who knew?

16 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:45am

re: #11 Racer X

Radical leftist GOP candidate Dede Scozzafava quits
- Michelle Malkin

Is rodan writing her headlines these days?

17 John Neverbend  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:56am

re: #4 webevintage

wow.
Why?
Not that you guys want the vote split, but wow...people don't really know anything about him nor has he been in a debate or...wow.

I heard him speaking on Youtube. He was being interviewed by Glinn Bick (I'm using the New Zealand pronunciation today), and he sounded remarkably bland. I was trying to see if he'd make explicit his views on ID/creationism, but he didn't.

18 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:26:58am

re: #11 Racer X

Radical leftist GOP candidate Dede Scozzafava quits
- Michelle Malkin

Yep, and she links to a white supremacist neo-Confederate to announce it.

19 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:27:13am

re: #7 wrenchwench

I spent a few years working on third party stuff. Got nowhere in the end. Why not have some conservatives take over the Democratic Party? They already have some power, we just need to guide it.

P.S. This is what the Paulians are doing with the Repubs.

P.P.S. I started already; I put the "ic" on the Democrat Party!

I agree that 3rd party stuff goes nowhere.
Besides - the "Whig" party is not a recognized party in my state, I couldn't register that way even if I wanted. Best I could do would be registered with no party affiliation (like the Roi).

20 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:27:53am

re: #6 Racer X

Didn't Steele just endorse her?

kinda sorta.
From what I heard, he didn't sound particularly enthusiastic.

21 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:28:10am

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

22 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:28:56am

Reposting from the last thread:

Michael Steele: Doug Hoffman win is a GOP win

Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele said Friday that a victory by Doug Hoffman, the third-party candidate in the Nov. 3 New York special election, is a win for the GOP.

Said before she dropped out.

23 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:29:16am

re: #20 reine.de.tout

kinda sorta.
From what I heard, he didn't sound particularly enthusiastic.

Which should have given us a clue, I think, that this withdrawal may have been on the drawing board.

24 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:29:18am

Well, food for thought. However, McCain was/is the quintessential RINO. Running HIM didn't get such great results, either.

25 jaunte  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:29:38am

It's still hard to believe a throwback like R. S. McCain is getting mainstreamed by conservatives.

26 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:29:48am

re: #18 Charles

Yep, and she links to a white supremacist neo-Confederate to announce it.

The right side has gone full blast insane. If you're not a tea-bagging creationist it means you must be a radical leftist.

27 Nervous Norvous  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:29:58am

I have to admit a certain amount of whatever that German word is where you enjoy other's misery..shadenfreude or something like that.

How many years were spent by the right demonizing their opponents on the left? Once they were out of power, it was only a matter of time before that particularly nasty little habit started going on internally.

28 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:08am

re: #21 MandyManners

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

No need - it is abandoning you.

29 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:18am

re: #21 MandyManners

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

I have no qualms abandoning a party who doesn't want moderate voters.

re: #24 Odahi

Well, food for thought. However, McCain was/is the quintessential RINO. Running HIM didn't get such great results, either.

Obama's victory would've been even greater had the GOP run a right winger.
my 2 cents.

30 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:19am

I'm telling ya'll the Blue Dog Democrats are where the center right has moved.

31 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:21am

re: #11 Racer X

Radical leftist GOP candidate Dede Scozzafava quits
- Michelle Malkin

So all it takes to be a "Radical!!!Leftist" in Malkin's pretend world she inhabits is to be pro-choice and pro gay marriage?

In the end if Hoffman wins it will not be a good thing for Republicans or the country for that matter.

32 John Neverbend  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:53am

re: #27 PT Barnum

I have to admit a certain amount of whatever that German word is where you enjoy other's misery..shadenfreude or something like that.

How many years were spent by the right demonizing their opponents on the left? Once they were out of power, it was only a matter of time before that particularly nasty little habit started going on internally.


Schadenfreude

33 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:30:56am

re: #25 jaunte

It's still hard to believe a throwback like R. S. McCain is getting mainstreamed by conservatives.

I don't consider them conservatives. Or republicans. They're far-right populists.

34 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:31:10am

re: #27 PT Barnum

Schadenfreude.

35 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:32:20am

re: #29 Varek Raith

Every member of the GOP doesn't want moderates?

36 Nervous Norvous  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:32:23am

Thanks Mandy and John...they say memory is the second thing to go, but I don't remember what the first thing is...

37 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:33:31am

re: #31 webevintage

So all it takes to be a "Radical!!!Leftist" in Malkin's pretend world she inhabits is to be pro-choice and pro gay marriage?

This is exactly what is wrong with politics today - on both sides. If you do not lean all the way to one side or another you get blasted as a radical on the other side. There is no middle of the road. All in or you're out!

That's effed up.

38 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:33:45am

re: #36 PT Barnum

Thanks Mandy and John...they say memory is the second thing to go, but I don't remember what the first thing is...

Neither do I.

39 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:34:42am

re: #36 PT Barnum

Thanks Mandy and John...they say memory is the second thing to go, but I don't remember what the first thing is...

When I was born the doctor told me I could be well endowed, or have an excellent memory. I forget which one I picked.

40 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:34:53am

Semi-OT: The moderators at GOP.Com are working overtime to delete offensive pics posted by Paulian users. All those blank slots are deleted photos.

41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:35:45am

re: #32 John Neverbend

Schadenfreude

"Extreme pleasure from other peoples misery. Wow! That is German!"
-Gary Coleman, Avenue Q

42 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:36:26am

re: #21 MandyManners

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

I bet you do...either that or not vote, and what's the difference?...will you support a white supremist, or some other crackpot?

43 harry91  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:37:54am

re: #21 MandyManners

However, I have a feeling that they may abandon you.

44 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:38:02am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: The moderators at GOP.Com are working overtime to delete offensive pics posted by Paulian users. All those blank slots are deleted photos.

I have a feeling that keeping that site out of the hands of Paulian users is going to be a losing battle for them.

45 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:38:08am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: The moderators at GOP.Com are working overtime to delete offensive pics posted by Paulian users. All those blank slots are deleted photos.

I think that might be your browser. I looked at the first ten pages - no blanks.

46 Nervous Norvous  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:38:26am

re: #35 MandyManners

No but the ones getting all the media coverage don't want anyone outside the true believing base.

The problem is that the socons were given so much power because of them being part of a winning coalition in the 80s and 90s that they started thinking that they were the sole reason the party was winning.

I am still of the opinion that there is room for a party more concerned with pragmatic solutions to difficult problems which isn't afraid of subtledty or compromise.

The biggest problem we have now is the hardening of attitudes to the point that most of the dialog is how awful the other person is as opposed to how crappy their ideas are or at least exploring how best to solve a problem, ideology be damned.

Too much time is spent saying "I am against BHO and everything he stands for." or "Bush is a war criminal who deserves to be put into prison" as opposed to discussing what the actual impact of the policies in question are likely to be. That's the kind of conversation we need to be having more of. How do we solve problems and clean up this mess.

Much as I know I will be excoriated by some here, I'm going to appropriate the Administrations current catch phrase and say let's all grab a fucking mop and get busy.

47 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:38:46am

Like many of you, I do not like where the GOP is heading. With that being said, what are all of us to do this coming election? I for one can't support the democrats, not due to their stances on abortion, gay marriage etc., but more because I can't support their terrible fiscal and big government policies.

Do we all stay home?

Do we vote our conscience and in the process help more democrats become elected?

I'm at a crossroads here. I will not vote for a theocrat or even a perceived theocrat but the thought of more democrats like Pelosi and Reid entering the halls of Washington scares me.

Again, what do we do?

48 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:39:49am

re: #21 MandyManners

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

Me too.

Has anyone found any information on Hoffman suggesting he is a Theocon? I know he is supported by some, but that in itself does not implicate him. I can't find any.

49 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:40:08am

re: #24 Odahi

Well, food for thought. However, McCain was/is the quintessential RINO. Running HIM didn't get such great results, either.

I found the John McCain who ran in 2008 not at all like the McCain I had come to like and respect. I think in trying to please the base he lost the majority of the middle who go either way, Palin really hurt him, then his "our economy is basically sound" along with the whole David Letterman thing really hurt him.

The Republicans were just on the wrong side of history, I'm not sure any one could have beaten Obama and the country was disappointed with the fact that for the most part R's were in charge for the last 8 years and it seemed like Bush had broken the world.

50 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:41:05am

re: #42 albusteve

I bet you do...either that or not vote, and what's the difference?...will you support a white supremist, or some other crackpot?

I'll get back to you on that when the GOP runs a white supremacist in my state or for the presidency, the only elections which I can influence.

51 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:41:10am

re: #47 Jetpilot1101

Like many of you, I do not like where the GOP is heading. With that being said, what are all of us to do this coming election? I for one can't support the democrats, not due to their stances on abortion, gay marriage etc., but more because I can't support their terrible fiscal and big government policies.

Do we all stay home?

Do we vote our conscience and in the process help more democrats become elected?

I'm at a crossroads here. I will not vote for a theocrat or even a perceived theocrat but the thought of more democrats like Pelosi and Reid entering the halls of Washington scares me.

Again, what do we do?

These are the options:

1) Stay home
2) Vote dem or 3rd party
3) Get involved in the party now so non-theocons don't win the nominations, or get involved with the dems and push for a blue dog

52 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:42:03am

re: #48 filetandrelease

Me too.

Has anyone found any information on Hoffman suggesting he is a Theocon? I know he is supported by some, but that in itself does not implicate him. I can't find any.

Charles has a thread about it on the front page.

53 fish  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:42:18am

Regan left the Democrat party when it went to far left. At that time he was able to join and redirect the Republican party. Now with the Republican Party going astray again and the Democrats so far beholding to the lunatics on that side, one has to worry about the state of the union and when (if ever) reasonable heads will once again prevail.

Lets face it the crazies have taken over both parties, and with current campaign finance laws I do not believe a third party candidate could win dog catcher much less an actual seat of power.

54 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:42:48am

I did not see this coming, but the writing was on the wall when liberal GOPers like Pataki started backing Hoffman yesterday.

This race speaks volumes about the incompetence of the state GOP, headed by Ed Cox. They've got to clean house and get back to basics. But the impact of this will be tempered if Christie wins in NJ. Christie is a moderate/liberal GOPer, and his win in NJ over Corzine (backed by Obama and whose campaign is operated by a bunch of Obama insiders) would show that moderate GOPers can win against Democrats;

That said, I'm sure all the interested parties will take away different lessons from this - that the far right is in sway of the GOP (regardless if Hoffman wins or loses), etc.

I just don't think that this singular race is a good gauge of where the GOP is nationwide; the local political infighting played as much or a greater role in the ascendancy of Hoffman than anything else. Out of staters and tea partiers jumped on the bandwagon against a seriously flawed candidate in the form of Scozzfava.

55 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:42:55am

re: #47 Jetpilot1101

Like many of you, I do not like where the GOP is heading. With that being said, what are all of us to do this coming election? I for one can't support the democrats, not due to their stances on abortion, gay marriage etc., but more because I can't support their terrible fiscal and big government policies.

Do we all stay home?

Do we vote our conscience and in the process help more democrats become elected?

I'm at a crossroads here. I will not vote for a theocrat or even a perceived theocrat but the thought of more democrats like Pelosi and Reid entering the halls of Washington scares me.

Again, what do we do?

Maybe moderate (let's say "rational") conservatives should try to be slightly more vociferous, even if it is impossible to attain the Tea Part/Glen Beck level of loudness and keep one's sanity.
GOP politicians (perhaps all politicians) seem to be playing to the crowd that yells the louder.
They might be unaware that their attempt to keep and heed "the base" (let's call it "the Asylum") is losing them many moderate votes.
I think the "silent majority" aspect of moderate conservatives is keeping the GOP from realizing how many they are.

56 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:43:09am

Blue Dogs and RINOs! should unite and form their own party.

57 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:43:13am

I'm actually (unlikely as it may seem from my posts here) pretty liberal socially. I'm pro-choice, pro-science, pro-gay-marriage. I don't like the far-right/theocrat takeover of the party either. What do we do? I'm not sure. Vote for the lesser of the evils again, I suppose.
/sigh

58 John Neverbend  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:43:17am

re: #48 filetandrelease

Me too.

Has anyone found any information on Hoffman suggesting he is a Theocon? I know he is supported by some, but that in itself does not implicate him. I can't find any.

On the Glinn Bick interview, in answer to a question from Glinn, he described himself as a "main of faith". I cannot infer from this that he is a theocon.

59 harry91  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:44:16am

re: #51 Sharmuta


This reminds me of the eighties when the Dems fled en masse from a Democratic party that no longer represented them.

Except, of course, in reverse.

60 John Neverbend  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:44:46am

re: #58 John Neverbend

On the Glinn Bick interview, in answer to a question from Glinn, he described himself as a "main of faith". I cannot infer from this that he is a theocon.

Corrected. Actually, what is a theocon?

61 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:44:47am

re: #55 mikhailtheplumber

Maybe moderate (let's say "rational") conservatives should try to be slightly more vociferous, even if it is impossible to attain the Tea Part/Glen Beck level of loudness and keep one's sanity.
GOP politicians (perhaps all politicians) seem to be playing to the crowd that yells the louder.
They might be unaware that their attempt to keep and heed "the base" (let's call it "the Asylum") is losing them many moderate votes.
I think the "silent majority" aspect of moderate conservatives is keeping the GOP from realizing how many they are.

let's just hope they get informed, then get out and vote...there are millions of them

62 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:45:07am

re: #51 Sharmuta

These are the options:

1) Stay home
2) Vote dem or 3rd party
3) Get involved in the party now so non-theocons don't win the nominations, or get involved with the dems and push for a blue dog

Blue Dogs are not moderates by intent, only by expediency. They are not concerned with moderation, they are first and foremost concerned with their job. By their nature, they are able to spin as the wind blows. The can shift back to the left as fast as they shift to the middle.

Don't trust a one of them.

63 metrolibertarian  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:45:30am

If only Dede Scozzafava had told Sarah Palin that she too will bail as soon as the going gets kind of hard, maybe the former mayor of Wasilla would have endorsed her.

64 Gus  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:45:41am

In other theocratic related news:

Focus on the Family's Dobson slates exit for February

Focus on the Family founder James C. Dobson will end his 32-year stint as the voice of the conservative Christian ministry at the end of February, the Colorado Springs-based nonprofit announced Friday.

Focus on the Family's board and the 73-year-old Dobson, the folksy family therapist who evolved into a key frontman for the religious right, have agreed to a parting of the ways, ministry spokesman Gary Schneeberger said.

Dobson's February exit from the airwaves probably doesn't spell his demise as an icon with political clout, experts say. And it isn't known whether his departure will help or hurt the ministry's efforts to attract new and younger families as listeners, readers and donors.

(snip)

65 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:46:21am

re: #24 Odahi

Well, food for thought. However, McCain was/is the quintessential RINO. Running HIM didn't get such great results, either.

Everyone keeps saying that, but I disagree.

It is a cyclic phenomenon; McCain was as middle of the road as a GOP candidate can get. After 8 years of Bush and the rhetoric coming from the other side, Americans were convinced radical change was necessary. It was not, but people were fed the bullshit from the MSM.

ANY GOP candidate would have lost. It did not matter who McCain picked. Lieberman? Two old guys. Romney? Another white religious fanatic. Rudy? Another career politician. The attacks would have doomed any VP choice. Palin was an easy target.

66 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:46:39am

re: #56 Sharmuta

Blue Dogs and RINOs! should unite and form their own party.

Or the RINOs could run as democrats and help pull the party back towards the center.

67 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:46:56am

re: #53 fish

Regan left the Democrat party when it went to far left. At that time he was able to join and redirect the Republican party. Now with the Republican Party going astray again and the Democrats so far beholding to the lunatics on that side, one has to worry about the state of the union and when (if ever) reasonable heads will once again prevail.

Lets face it the crazies have taken over both parties, and with current campaign finance laws I do not believe a third party candidate could win dog catcher much less an actual seat of power.

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble with your equating the "lunatic" Democrats (are those the ones that back a "robust public option" in health care?) with the complete out-of-this-world insanity the far right has shown and how GOP politicians and pundits are jumping on that boat full of crazy.

68 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:47:02am

politics...what a disgusting soap opera

69 Political Atheist  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:47:11am

re: #3 reine.de.tout

Well this did it. My wife has been the stalwart "wait this out" Republican, I went indy years ago. She watched the Scoffazza thing over my shoulder here. She just this minute said "Time to re register indy." Big news in my house.

70 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:48:19am

re: #59 harry91

This reminds me of the eighties when the Dems fled en masse from a Democratic party that no longer represented them.

Except, of course, in reverse.

Exactly. The Reagan Democrats. The so-called "conservatives" think they were the ones who moved those folks to Reagan, but it was his fiscal and national security positions that appealed to them. Not the theo-cons or paleocons. It's almost as though they've applied revisionist history to Reagan's legacy and made him something he wasn't. For crying out loud- the man gave us that flaming moderate Justice O'Connor, and I'm supposed to think he's their hero?

71 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:48:39am

re: #62 Walter L. Newton

Blue Dogs are not moderates by intent, only by expediency. They are not concerned with moderation, they are first and foremost concerned with their job. By their nature, they are able to spin as the wind blows. The can shift back to the left as fast as they shift to the middle.

Don't trust a one of them.

In other words they are moderates who vote with the left sometimes and with the right sometimes depending on wants and needs of their constituents. That sounds so horrible.

72 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:49:24am

re: #52 MandyManners

Charles has a thread about it on the front page.


Are you referencing "The People behind Hoffman" thread? Although that doesn't give me any warm and fuzzies, what I am looking for are Hoffmans Positions on ID in the science class, that type of thing. I have searched but can't find it and was wondering if anyone had found actual positions he has taken that would make him a Theocon.

73 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:49:42am

I'm curious (only a little) - what is the knock on Hoffman?

Or is there one other than who endorses him?

74 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:49:44am

re: #65 Racer X

Everyone keeps saying that, but I disagree.

It is a cyclic phenomenon; McCain was as middle of the road as a GOP candidate can get. After 8 years of Bush and the rhetoric coming from the other side, Americans were convinced radical change was necessary. It was not, but people were fed the bullshit from the MSM.

ANY GOP candidate would have lost. It did not matter who McCain picked. Lieberman? Two old guys. Romney? Another white religious fanatic. Rudy? Another career politician. The attacks would have doomed any VP choice. Palin was an easy target.

voter derangement, bolstered and sanctioned by the MSM is unstoppable...with the MSM in your pocket, victory is pretty easy...toss in some hopeandchange, some pandering, lie about everything and presto!

75 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:49:48am

re: #69 Rightwingconspirator

Well this did it. My wife has been the stalwart "wait this out" Republican, I went indy years ago. She watched the Scoffazza thing over my shoulder here. She just this minute said "Time to re register indy." Big news in my house.

I'm almost there myself.
The Roi has been registered as long as I've known him with "no party affiliation". Perhaps time for me to do the same.

76 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:50:20am

re: #67 mikhailtheplumber

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble with your equating the "lunatic" Democrats (are those the ones that back a "robust public option" in health care?) with the complete out-of-this-world insanity the far right has shown and how GOP politicians and pundits are jumping on that boat full of crazy.

In other words the GOP has gone farther to the right than the Dems have to the left. The Democrats are currently closer to the center, congressional progressive caucus nonwithstanding.

77 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:50:58am

I guess the question is now where Scozzafava's supporters go. How many of them go to Hoffman and how man go Dem?

78 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:51:16am
79 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:51:56am

re: #73 Racer X

I'm curious (only a little) - what is the knock on Hoffman?

Or is there one other than who endorses him?

Last I recall- finding info on hoffman is next to impossible. He's remained out of debates so that people basically don't know his views. He is being supported by a theocratic, nativist party- for what it's worth.

80 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:52:01am

re: #73 Racer X

He's not a resident of NY-23, living in Lake Placid which is located outside the district (in NY-20, IIRC). He's basically running as a tabula rasa and doesn't have positions on much of anything despite his campaign website. That's troublesome all by itself.

81 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:52:16am

re: #74 albusteve

voter derangement, bolstered and sanctioned by the MSM is unstoppable...with the MSM in your pocket, victory is pretty easy...toss in some hopeandchange, some pandering, lie about everything and presto!

Actually, albusteve, you kind of ignored Racer X's point about McCain's main weakness being coming as the GOP candidate after 8 years of Bush.
Don't forget Fox is MSM, and has the highest ratings around. I don't quite remember them asking for change and endorsing Obama.

82 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:52:51am

re: #79 Sharmuta

Last I recall- finding info on hoffman is next to impossible. He's remained out of debates so that people basically don't know his views. He is being supported by a theocratic, nativist party- for what it's worth.

In other words - what is it they seem to know that no one else knows?

83 Gus  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:52:52am

re: #80 lawhawk

He's not a resident of NY-23, living in Lake Placid which is located outside the district (in NY-20, IIRC). He's basically running as a tabula rasa and doesn't have positions on much of anything despite his campaign website. That's troublesome all by itself.

Doug Hoffman, carpetbagger.

84 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:53:01am

re: #76 Conservative Moonbat

In other words the GOP has gone farther to the right than the Dems have to the left. The Democrats are currently closer to the center, congressional progressive caucus nonwithstanding.

current and future legislation does not reflect your opinion...there are plent of lunatic democrats and they are the ones doing the damage at this point...unless of course you prefer a larger, more powerful, more intrusive govt

85 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:53:17am

re: #71 Conservative Moonbat

In other words they are moderates who vote with the left sometimes and with the right sometimes depending on wants and needs of their constituents. That sounds so horrible.

The way you put it it does. But, since your comment in no way echoes what I actually said (although you "cleverly" tried to spin it, try again), I said they do what they do because they are motivated in only keeping their jobs.

Therefore, no, not in "other words" because they were not my words. In my words they are selfish self serving fools that will do anything, and constituents play no role in it.

It is the political winds that are spinning them, not anything that emanates at the grass roots level.

86 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:53:48am

re: #81 mikhailtheplumber

Actually, albusteve, you kind of ignored Racer X's point about McCain's main weakness being coming as the GOP candidate after 8 years of Bush.
Don't forget Fox is MSM, and has the highest ratings around. I don't quite remember them asking for change and endorsing Obama.

I did ignore his point, I just piggybacked onto his post

87 harry91  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:53:50am

re: #73 Racer X

I think the actual thing to take from this situation is that the radical fringe of the party took on the establishment and the establishment blinked.

88 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:54:02am

I'm sick of politics.

89 [deleted]  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:54:33am
90 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:54:54am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

The district is GOP leaning, so I suspect most will go to Hoffman.

After all, this is a district that has reliably sent a GOP candidate to Congress since 1993 (and parts of the district were shifted into the 21st District, which has reliably been Democrat since then as it incorporates most of the Capital District (Albany).

91 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:55:23am

re: #88 Racer X

I'm sick of politics.

Then stay out of it.

92 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:56:13am

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

Then stay out of it.

right...nothing unAmerican about being apolitical

93 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:56:30am

re: #58 John Neverbend

On the Glinn Bick interview, in answer to a question from Glinn, he described himself as a "main of faith". I cannot infer from this that he is a theocon.

Just being a politician there. I heard that interview, and he actually sounded like a typical conservative. (typical = I don't know how else to describe a conservative who is not a theocon, socon or neocon. Maybe Sharmuta can help.)

94 fish  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:56:32am

re: #67 mikhailtheplumber

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble with your equating the "lunatic" Democrats (are those the ones that back a "robust public option" in health care?) with the complete out-of-this-world insanity the far right has shown and how GOP politicians and pundits are jumping on that boat full of crazy.

The public option is not even close to the craziest stuff the far left has: Global warming is bad but we cant use Nuclear Power to fix it. The rich should be taxed until the aren't rich any more, Capitalism is wrong and unjust, George Bush is Satan and personally caused 9/11.

Right wing crazies kill abortion providers, left wing crazies kill lumber jacks.

If you don't see the crazy on the other side of the aisle you are not looking very hard.

95 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:56:47am

re: #91 Walter L. Newton

re: #92 albusteve

Everything is political.

96 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:56:56am

re: #88 Racer X

I'm sick of politics.


I try to get away by going and hanging with friends and having a BBQ. Guess who they come to to ask questions about politics. Yup.

97 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:57:05am

re: #73 Racer X

I'm curious (only a little) - what is the knock on Hoffman?

Or is there one other than who endorses him?

Me too, I am trying to find that out.

98 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:57:21am

re: #90 lawhawk

The district is GOP leaning, so I suspect most will go to Hoffman.

After all, this is a district that has reliably sent a GOP candidate to Congress since 1993 (and parts of the district were shifted into the 21st District, which has reliably been Democrat since then as it incorporates most of the Capital District (Albany).

So was this all an exercise in proving Palin has some sort of uber!kingmaking power and that moderates need to just stfu?

99 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:57:40am

re: #92 albusteve

right...nothing unAmerican about being apolitical

Agreed. I don't want anyone who is sick of politics trying to be involved in it, only leads to negative outcomes.

100 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:58:30am

Hoffman on Mark Levin's show:

101 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:58:34am

re: #98 webevintage

So was this all an exercise in proving Palin has some sort of uber!kingmaking power and that moderates need to just stfu?

If that's the way you want to take it, yep.

102 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:58:47am

re: #95 mikhailtheplumber

re: #92 albusteve

Everything is political.

whoa...heavy duty

103 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:58:57am

As much as I wanted to like Palin, her positions on a lot of issues turned me off, and she wound up being woefully unprepared for the campaign. The whole smear campaign added to it, and I think she had almost no chance of ever being elected for anything, even before she quit as Governor. I wanted her to be a conservative, intelligent, fresh voice in national politics. Sadly, it didn't happen. I agree that any R would have had an almost insurmountable task to defeat the Obama juggernaut, after 8 years of W. I "hope" we haven't seen the complete exile of sanity from the GOP, but it's not looking good right now.

104 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:59:33am

re: #72 filetandrelease

Are you referencing "The People behind Hoffman" thread? Although that doesn't give me any warm and fuzzies, what I am looking for are Hoffmans Positions on ID in the science class, that type of thing. I have searched but can't find it and was wondering if anyone had found actual positions he has taken that would make him a Theocon.

To my knowledge, he's not been asked such questions.

105 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:59:48am

re: #95 mikhailtheplumber

re: #92 albusteve

Everything is political.

Yawn.

106 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #82 reine.de.tout

In other words - what is it they seem to know that no one else knows?


Maybe they just don't like Dede because of her record on abortion and gay rights.

107 Randall Gross  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:00:26am

This actually might be a smart move, as silly as that seems. Let the Conservative party candidate take the loss, and then run again a year from now with Dede or another candidate. The CFG will exhaust more funds here, leaving the moderate PACs more capable for 2010. Of course this is just wishful thinking.

arrggg. The fundies have taken over my party.

108 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:00:26am

re: #80 lawhawk

He's not a resident of NY-23, living in Lake Placid which is located outside the district (in NY-20, IIRC). He's basically running as a tabula rasa and doesn't have positions on much of anything despite his campaign website. That's troublesome all by itself.

How is it legal for him to be running for that seat?

109 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:00:49am

re: #94 fish

The public option is not even close to the craziest stuff the far left has: Global warming is bad but we cant use Nuclear Power to fix it. The rich should be taxed until the aren't rich any more, Capitalism is wrong and unjust, George Bush is Satan and personally caused 9/11.

Right wing crazies kill abortion providers, left wing crazies kill lumber jacks.

If you don't see the crazy on the other side of the aisle you are not looking very hard.

You're using some old quotes here. And don't forget, the "truthers" were never embraced by the main Dems like the Tea Partiers are being cuddled right now.
I don't doubt nor deny that there are -and have been- left wing crazies. We even have funny terms for them, like moonbats.
Still, the fact that there is crazy on the left does not mean that the level of crazy is balanced between both poles. Sorry, but as of late, right wing crazy has gone off the scale.
Being "balanced" about it is just lying to yourself

110 KernelPanic  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:01:04am

re: #94 fish

The public option is not even close to the craziest stuff the far left has: Global warming is bad but we cant use Nuclear Power to fix it. The rich should be taxed until the aren't rich any more, Capitalism is wrong and unjust, George Bush is Satan and personally caused 9/11.

Right wing crazies kill abortion providers, left wing crazies kill lumber jacks.

If you don't see the crazy on the other side of the aisle you are not looking very hard.

And absolutely none of this crazy bullshit is being spread by actual, elected dem politicians and the heads of the democratic party. If you have not noticed that the Dems have sidelined their lunatics while the Republicans have embraced theirs then you are not looking very hard.

111 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:01:31am

re: #104 MandyManners

To my knowledge, he's not been asked such questions.

He's avoiding those questions by not participating in debates.

112 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:01:52am

re: #94 fish

The public option is not even close to the craziest stuff the far left has: Global warming is bad but we cant use Nuclear Power to fix it. The rich should be taxed until the aren't rich any more, Capitalism is wrong and unjust, George Bush is Satan and personally caused 9/11.

Right wing crazies kill abortion providers, left wing crazies kill lumber jacks.

If you don't see the crazy on the other side of the aisle you are not looking very hard.

Global warming shouldn't be a political issue and increasing isn't. The reality of climate change is now accepted in a lot of Republican quarters too. Science doesn't have an R or D after its name. Nuclear power is likely to be part of the final C&T bill to help lure republican votes. Such was the case with the proposal put forth by Lindsey Grahm and John Kerry. You're pretty much talking about the positions of far left activists, not mainstream Democratic thought.

113 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:02:09am

re: #111 Sharmuta

He's avoiding those questions by not participating in debates.

You mean he's Palinating?

114 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:02:19am

re: #103 Odahi

As much as I wanted to like Palin, her positions on a lot of issues turned me off, and she wound up being woefully unprepared for the campaign. The whole smear campaign added to it, and I think she had almost no chance of ever being elected for anything, even before she quit as Governor. I wanted her to be a conservative, intelligent, fresh voice in national politics. Sadly, it didn't happen. I agree that any R would have had an almost insurmountable task to defeat the Obama juggernaut, after 8 years of W. I "hope" we haven't seen the complete exile of sanity from the GOP, but it's not looking good right now.

it hasn't...it only seems like it when one thing gets such heavy scrutiny...I think it's fair to see what happens this next cycle

115 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:03:34am

re: #98 webevintage

Not at all. It shows that she and the other right wingers took advantage of an ineffectual state GOP that put up a weak candidate in a special election and backed a dark horse candidate. Her supporters will try to make more out of it than they should - and will likely seriously overreach. This exposes problems with the NYS GOP and the national GOP reaction wasn't much better.

Fixing the problems start at the local level and finding competent candidates who are free from the taint of insider relationships (as Scozzafava was) and who are fiscally responsible and appeal to a wider range of voters than just the far right.

116 reine.de.tout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:03:56am

re: #106 filetandrelease

Maybe they just don't like Dede because of her record on abortion and gay rights.

Perhaps.
But during the Presidential election, I thought a lot of people were voting for Obama with little information about his background.

People who vote for Hoffman would be doing the same thing, as it appears not much is known about where he stands.

Never a good idea, imo.

117 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:04:27am

re: #108 Sharmuta

Beats the heck out of me, but not unheard of given that several other NY politicans aren't living in the districts they claim to represent, including Hiram Monserrate, Pedro Espada, and a couple others.

118 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:04:44am

re: #110 KernelPanic

And absolutely none of this crazy bullshit is being spread by actual, elected dem politicians and the heads of the democratic party. If you have not noticed that the Dems have sidelined their lunatics while the Republicans have embraced theirs then you are not looking very hard.

haha!...the health care legislation is the most far out, batshit crazy, lunatic legislation ever to make it out of committee...just for perspective

119 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:05:06am

This will be a good thing for the Republican party. The party has been plagued by "kinging" politics. I saw the same thing here in MN when they committed voter fraud during a delegation vote to ensure Mark Kennedy would be on the ticket during the State Convention.

What the party really needs is more involvement from the party members as delegates and alternates. If you don't like the people your party picks then go to your next BPOU meeting and get yourself nominated as a delegate.

Hopefully this will lead to a better party, but only time will tell.

120 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:05:45am

Too bad that the NY GOP didn't have the brass (and a friendly state supreme court in their corner) to pull off a switcheroo like the New Jersey Dems did in 2002, with Frank Lautenberg stepping in to replaced damaged-goods nominee Robert Torricelli, after the deadline for doing so had passed.

121 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:06:17am

re: #117 lawhawk

Beats the heck out of me, but not unheard of given that several other NY politicans aren't living in the districts they claim to represent, including Hiram Monserrate, Pedro Espada, and a couple others.

Wow! I think that's insane.

122 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #112 Conservative Moonbat

Global warming shouldn't be a political issue and increasing isn't. The reality of climate change is now accepted in a lot of Republican quarters too. Science doesn't have an R or D after its name. Nuclear power is likely to be part of the final C&T bill to help lure republican votes. Such was the case with the proposal put forth by Lindsey Grahm and John Kerry. You're pretty much talking about the positions of far left activists, not mainstream Democratic thought.

blocking nuclear power all these decades is flat out insane...what's normal to you is insane to me

123 KernelPanic  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:07:17am

re: #118 albusteve

haha!...the health care legislation is the most far out, batshit crazy, lunatic legislation ever to make it out of committee...just for perspective

I'm only 600 pages in, I'll let ya know if I agree !

124 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:07:26am

re: #118 albusteve

haha!...the health care legislation is the most far out, batshit crazy, lunatic legislation ever to make it out of committee...just for perspective

The second incarnation of the patriot act was just as extreme.

125 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:07:55am

re: #116 reine.de.tout

Perhaps.
But during the Presidential election, I thought a lot of people were voting for Obama with little information about his background.

People who vote for Hoffman would be doing the same thing, as it appears not much is known about where he stands.

Never a good idea, imo.

exactly...those folks learned what works the hard way...can you imagine if this strategy moves from trendy to mainstream?

126 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:08:02am

re: #121 Sharmuta

Wow! I think that's insane.

But not unheard of. How many Kennedys are reps in states bordering Massachusetts. All it takes is to rent an inexpensive house/ apt in a district to take up "residency"

127 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:08:50am

re: #123 KernelPanic

I'm only 600 pages in, I'll let ya know if I agree !

you don't even need to read it...

128 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:09:06am

re: #117 lawhawk

Thanks for being a knowledgeable and factual voice of reason in this

129 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:09:29am

re: #119 lrsshadow

This will be a good thing for the Republican party. The party has been plagued by "kinging" politics.

They should call it Bob Dole'ing.

I don't know how it is good. Setting aside what is happening in NY I find it ironic that conservatism strives on individual merit, against what some may call cronyism which I see prevalent in(and a negative aspect of) unions, which conservatism strives against.

Kingmaking is devilishly close to cronyism.

130 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:09:30am

It doesn't help any that there are no "moderates" getting any airtime right now. It suits the leftists in the MSM to concentrate on the lunatic fringe of the right. Their message gets amplified, and anything else gets ignored.

131 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:09:57am

re: #124 Conservative Moonbat

The second incarnation of the patriot act was just as extreme.

pretty weak...how much money has that cost you?...how many of your personal rights were legislated away?

132 subsailor68  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:10:31am

re: #121 Sharmuta

Wow! I think that's insane.

Hi Sharm. IIRC, in some states (Florida comes to mind), it is not a requirement to live in the district you're running to represent. You only have to be a resident of the state. I wonder if NY is that way? (Don't know for sure.)

133 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:10:47am

re: #130 Odahi

It doesn't help any that there are no "moderates" getting any airtime right now. It suits the leftists in the MSM to concentrate on the lunatic fringe of the right. Their message gets amplified, and anything else gets ignored.

lunatic fringes are where the money's at

134 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:10:47am

re: #130 Odahi

It doesn't help any that there are no "moderates" getting any airtime right now. It suits the leftists in the MSM to concentrate on the lunatic fringe of the right. Their message gets amplified, and anything else gets ignored.

They're too busy trying to escape the RINO hunt. ;-(

135 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:10:48am

re: #126 sattv4u2

But not unheard of. How many Kennedys are reps in states bordering Massachusetts. All it takes is to rent an inexpensive house/ apt in a district to take up "residency"

I understand the carpetbagger thing. I still think a candidate should live in the district they're trying to represent.

136 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:12:48am

re: #135 Sharmuta

I understand the carpetbagger thing. I still think a candidate should live in the district they're trying to represent.

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that it goes back a long way
Bobby Kennedy as NEW YORK's Senator

137 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:14:05am

Well, folks... gotta run. Off to the store for some last minute Halloween shopping. Today is also my ex-wife's birthday. Never marry someone born on Halloween. The black cat and broomstick should have been a clue, too.

138 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:14:24am

re: #130 Odahi

It doesn't help any that there are no "moderates" getting any airtime right now. It suits the leftists in the MSM to concentrate on the lunatic fringe of the right. Their message gets amplified, and anything else gets ignored.

They're also not getting any airtime in FOX, which is catering to the Glen Beck crazies of the USA. So it doesn't just "suit the leftist in the MSM", but the MSM as a whole.

139 Randall Gross  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:14:51am

re: #119 lrsshadow

It's a terrible thing for the Republican party. You can say it's machine politics all you want, at least the Pols behind Dede were from her freaking area. The corrupt machine behind Hoffman was not only from out of state but it's also much more rancid and much more evil.

140 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:15:06am

re: #130 Odahi

It doesn't help any that there are no "moderates" getting any airtime right now. It suits the leftists in the MSM to concentrate on the lunatic fringe of the right. Their message gets amplified, and anything else gets ignored.

David Frum still gets airtime on cnn. I think folks on the right need to leave fox news, and go to cnn instead. I don't have tv anymore, but the last few times I've been out and seen cnn coverage, they seem more moderated in their bias than what I remember of them years ago. I think they realized they needed to do that to deal with sinking ratings. That or the RINOs need to turn off their TVs altogether. The internet is a much better way to stay informed, imo.

141 Gus  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:15:57am

Found some issue positions by Doug Hoffman here.

Issue Position: Immigration

Where do you stand on illegal immigration?

There is no question that our immigration policies are flawed. The answer, though, is not to put up a wall and stop all immigration. The answer is to create an easier path for immigrants to enter the United States -- and to work here -- while at the same time getting tough on illegal immigrants who commit crimes.

That might make the wall builders or fence builders heads explode.

142 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:16:39am

re: #139 Thanos

It's a terrible thing for the Republican party. You can say it's machine politics all you want, at least the Pols behind Dede were from her freaking area. The corrupt machine behind Hoffman was not only from out of state but it's also much more rancid and much more evil.

yes, that's the bottom line...all else on the matter is just fluff, imo

143 Odahi  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:16:52am

re: #138 mikhailtheplumber

Oh, agreed. It seems to be a tough road for rational voices in the GOP right now. The loonies are so much more entertaining.

144 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:17:50am

re: #111 Sharmuta

He's avoiding those questions by not participating in debates.

He was in a debate earlier this week and has challenged his opponents to five more.

145 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:18:26am

All your district are belong to us.

146 Girth  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:19:02am

This appeasement will only serve to embolden the terrorists wingnuts.

147 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:19:08am

OT - when the far progressive Denver Post runs an article like this... there's trouble in River City folks...

Recovery Act job-creation math doesn't add up in Colorado

148 Randall Gross  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:19:23am

The machine behind Hoffman has made a devil's pact with the Birchers, Neoconfederates, and tea cup racialist Coughlinites to achieve the butt-weight to pull this off. That will destroy them in the end.

149 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:19:40am

re: #137 Odahi

Well, folks... gotta run. Off to the store for some last minute Halloween shopping. Today is also my ex-wife's birthday. Never marry someone born on Halloween. The black cat and broomstick should have been a clue, too.

Buying candy today? It'll cost ya!

150 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:20:44am

The teacher's union was backing Scozzafava, but will probably switch to Owen.

151 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #131 albusteve

pretty weak...how much money has that cost you?...how many of your personal rights were legislated away?

In terms of the federal government overreaching its bounds and intruding into the private lives of citizens, it's on par. I have no idea as to the cost. For all I know that's classified.

As far as how it effected me personally, I used to be really into high powered model rocketry. You just can't get the larger classes of engines anymore. The patriot act pretty much killed the hobby. It's so much harder to get the low level explosives permits now that suppliers quit making the engines.

I've had my laptop snooped around on at airports.

I've had my phone calls and email datamined, most likely.

It goes on and on. The explosion of the scope of federal government following 9/11 was larger than any other time in American history and it's doubtful any of it has made us any safer.

152 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:20:54am

re: #147 Walter L. Newton

OT - when the far progressive Denver Post runs an article like this... there's trouble in River City folks...

Recovery Act job-creation math doesn't add up in Colorado

2+2=5...what?

153 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:20:59am

re: #149 The Sanity Inspector

Buying candy today? It'll cost ya!

LESS.. lots of places slash prices a couple of hours before Halloween Night to get rid of stock!

154 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:21:08am

re: #141 Gus 802

Found some issue positions by Doug Hoffman here.

That might make the wall builders or fence builders heads explode.

It is a humane policy, its actual workability aside.

155 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:22:03am

re: #111 Sharmuta

He's avoiding those questions by not participating in debates.

The Romulan Candidate: running while cloaked.

156 Gang of One  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:22:16am

re: #150 Charles

The teacher's union was backing Scozzafava, but will probably switch to Owen.

Somewhat OT, but the teachers union here in NJ [NJEA] is backing Corzine. Surprise, surprise.

157 albusteve  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #151 Conservative Moonbat

In terms of the federal government overreaching its bounds and intruding into the private lives of citizens, it's on par. I have no idea as to the cost. For all I know that's classified.

As far as how it effected me personally, I used to be really into high powered model rocketry. You just can't get the larger classes of engines anymore. The patriot act pretty much killed the hobby. It's so much harder to get the low level explosives permits now that suppliers quit making the engines.

I've had my laptop snooped around on at airports.

I've had my phone calls and email datamined, most likely.

It goes on and on. The explosion of the scope of federal government following 9/11 was larger than any other time in American history and it's doubtful any of it has made us any safer.

are you some kind of subversive?...just kidding, good answer...I gotta go

158 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:23:19am

re: #155 MandyManners

The Romulan Candidate: running while cloaked.

#144 states he has been in a debate, and has called for more

159 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:23:37am

re: #100 Racer X

Hoffman on Mark Levin's show:

[Video]

How lame, very few questions and all softballs, basically a Dede smear.

160 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:24:17am

re: #152 albusteve

2+2=5...what?

No Steve, that is no use. You are lying. We don’t deal with lies. You still think that I am holding up four fingers. You are a slow learner.

161 theheat  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:24:24am

Well, this makes me sad. Dede didn't stand a chance with the lukewarm support even Michael Steele offered. Add she's pro-choice and pro gay marriage; both made her a target to be painted as a far left liberal by critics in her own party.

So now the likes of Palin and the other braying jackasses that decided to back Hoffman can bray a little louder about being true conservatives and saving babies and marriages, while the RINOS step back and watch the whole freaky spectacle. It was a cheap shot they took, and it's time to for them to gloat.

Personally, I hope Owens beats Hoffman at the polls like a red headed stepchild.

162 mich-again  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:25:06am

re: #150 Charles

A teacher's union was backing a GOP candidate?? Unheard of around these parts.

163 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:26:17am

re: #94 fish

Also don't forget that left wing crazies attack and kill our serviceman on American soil.

[Link: www.google.com...]

[Link: www.katv.com...]

164 sagehen  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:26:44am

re: #47 Jetpilot1101

Like many of you, I do not like where the GOP is heading. With that being said, what are all of us to do this coming election? I for one can't support the democrats, not due to their stances on abortion, gay marriage etc., but more because I can't support their terrible fiscal and big government policies.


Given a choice between fiscal mismanagement and theocracy, I'll vote for fiscal mismanagement every time.

Every.

Single.

Time.

And I don't think I'm alone.

165 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:27:53am

Just a general question, if you want to overturn Roe vs Wade, and let the states decide individually, and if you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that make you a Theocon?

166 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:28:59am

re: #162 mich-again

A teacher's union was backing a GOP candidate?? Unheard of around these parts.

Same here in Georgia and when I lived in Massachusetts

Speaks volumes imho !

167 Racer X  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:29:26am

re: #159 filetandrelease

How lame, very few questions and all softballs, basically a Dede smear.

Hoffman is a horrible speaker. He let Mark say all the talking points and just agreed with him.

168 mikhailtheplumber  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #165 filetandrelease

Just a general question, if you want to overturn Roe vs Wade, and let the states decide individually, and if you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that make you a Theocon?

I think it makes you a social conservative. It makes you a theocon if you want that because the Bible is the literal truth and should be the law of the land.

169 subsailor68  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:30:17am

Being from Texas and all, and a neighbor of Kinky Friedman's, I'd say he had the best observation on gay marriage - defusing an inflammatory topic:

Are you in favor of gay marriage Mr. Friedman?

Kinky: "Of course I'm in favor of it. Why shouldn't they be miserable like the rest of us?"

170 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:30:20am

re: #164 sagehen

Given a choice between fiscal mismanagement and theocracy, I'll vote for fiscal mismanagement every time.

Every.

Single.

Time.

And I don't think I'm alone.


I am not sure here. Ultimately, would not the courts protect us against a Theocracy?

Otherwise a vote for a Theocon does not necessarily equate into a vote for a Theocracy?

171 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:30:21am

re: #165 filetandrelease

Just a general question, if you want to overturn Roe vs Wade, and let the states decide individually, and if you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that make you a Theocon?

You shouldn't be. I'm an atheist, and if I was against those, it would certainly have nothing to do with any theology.

172 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:30:40am

re: #163 lrsshadow

Also don't forget that left wing crazies attack and kill our serviceman on American soil.

[Link: www.google.com...]

[Link: www.katv.com...]

In neither of those cases were left wingers to blame. One was a radical Islamist and the other was a bunch of drunk rednecks. Plus Luttrell wasn't attacked. His dog was shot.

173 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:31:04am

re: #168 mikhailtheplumber

Thank you, makes sense.

174 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:31:33am

re: #129 BigPapa

Yup I agree and think that the republican party is very close to cronyism. Hopefully this will benefit the party and help to get more involvement at the local level.

I think our biggest problem with both parties is that most people don't understand how the system works. If you become a delegate of your party (which is not hard to do at local and state level) you can have a significant influence on who is going to be picked from Congressional and Senatorial races.

More involvement by the mainstream public would curb lunatic shenanigans in both parties.

175 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:32:08am

re: #144 filetandrelease

He was in a debate earlier this week and has challenged his opponents to five more.

Link?

176 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:32:23am

re: #158 sattv4u2

#144 states he has been in a debate, and has called for more

I've not heard.

177 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:32:52am

Upstate NY, once the home of radical abolitionists and suffragettes and thier sympathisers in the Republican Party, now home to those who squeak loudest. I think that's irony.

This just in from the CBN for all you going out to indulge in the "gathering of evil that masquerades behind the fictitious characters of Dracula, werewolves, mummies and witches on brooms."

Lion's and Tigers and Bears, OH MY!

Be not mistaken - I will have carved pumpkins lit with Satan's fire to lure strange and enchanted children down my driveway for treats upon which I and the other Witches have cast a time released curse! OH THE EVIL THAT AWAITS THE WORLD FROM OUR BEWITCHED CANDY! HAHAHAHA!!!

178 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:33:34am

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

Thanks, just trying to clarify my thoughts. Saturdays are slow sometimes which provides more time for grounding.

179 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:33:40am

re: #151 Conservative Moonbat

well we have not been attacked again. the must be doing something right

180 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:34:20am

re: #170 filetandrelease

I am not sure here. Ultimately, would not the courts protect us against a Theocracy?

Otherwise a vote for a Theocon does not necessarily equate into a vote for a Theocracy?

Not if they pack the supreme court with enough Alitos. I still can't believe he's on the SC. Roberts is fine but Alito is scary.

181 mich-again  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:34:23am
“It is increasingly clear that pressure is mounting on many of my supporters to shift their support. Consequently, I hereby release those individuals who have endorsed and supported my campaign to transfer their support as they see fit to do so.

Interesting. She didn't try to funnel her supporters one way or the other. Not typical behavior for a politician bowing out of a race.

182 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:34:40am

re: #175 MandyManners

Link?

Here y'go.

183 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:34:58am

re: #163 lrsshadow

Also don't forget that left wing crazies attack and kill our serviceman on American soil.

[Link: www.google.com...]

[Link: www.katv.com...]

I don't know if I'd call Muhammad a left-wing crazy.

184 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #165 filetandrelease

Just a general question, if you want to overturn Roe vs Wade, and let the states decide individually, and if you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that make you a Theocon?

What are the bases for those beleifs and do you want to impose those beliefs on everyone?

185 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:35:56am

re: #181 mich-again

Interesting. She didn't try to funnel her supporters one way or the other. Not typical behavior for a politician bowing out of a race.

Actually, it is. In that it was sudden, the "deals" will be presented by both sides

186 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:36:06am

re: #178 filetandrelease

Thanks, just trying to clarify my thoughts. Saturdays are slow sometimes which provides more time for grounding.

Interestingly, I suspect that there would be a lot of people on the left that would automatically call you a Theocon if you espoused those concerns.

187 mich-again  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:36:29am

re: #167 Racer X

Hoffman is a horrible speaker.

When he flashes those choppers, traffic slows down.

188 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:36:40am

re: #179 lrsshadow

well we have not been attacked again. the must be doing something right

We haven't had any major hurricanes since Katrina. They must be doing something right.

189 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:37:12am

re: #182 The Sanity Inspector

Here y'go.

Thanks!

190 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:37:43am

re: #183 MandyManners

I don't know if I'd call Muhammad a left-wing crazy.

Oh then why are the left wing organizations holding rallies with extreme Muslim groups like Hamas, Hezbula, etc in America over the last 8 years. I am pretty sure that Muhammad didn't vote republican either.

191 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:37:55am

re: #175 MandyManners

Link?


The debate

The challenge

192 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #183 MandyManners

I don't know if I'd call Muhammad a left-wing crazy.

and it looks like the guys who shot Luttrell's dog were also suspected of shooting other dogs in the area.
Assholes yes, lefties...not so much.

193 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #190 lrsshadow

Oh then why are the left wing organizations holding rallies with extreme Muslim groups like Hamas, Hezbula, etc in America over the last 8 years. I am pretty sure that Muhammad didn't vote republican either.

Teh lojik...

194 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39:02am

re: #191 filetandrelease

The debate

The challenge

Thanks!

195 TedStriker  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39:17am

re: #181 mich-again

Interesting. She didn't try to funnel her supporters one way or the other. Not typical behavior for a politician bowing out of a race.

Sounds like someone who didn't bail of their own accord, but was forced to quit the race by an ultimatum from on high. I wonder who leaned on Steele and the NYS GOP to lean on Dede...the usual suspects?

196 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39:46am

re: #192 webevintage

and it looks like the guys who shot Luttrell's dog were also suspected of shooting other dogs in the area.
Assholes yes, lefties...not so much.

Unless they had rocks in their right pockets, I doubt they could tell the difference between left and right.

197 Political Atheist  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #165 filetandrelease

I think that would be a SoCon.

198 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:40:05am

re: #190 lrsshadow

Oh then why are the left wing organizations holding rallies with extreme Muslim groups like Hamas, Hezbula, etc in America over the last 8 years. I am pretty sure that Muhammad didn't vote republican either.

You're not talking about the mainstream left. You're using the actions of individuals who likely vote for the Greens and other far left parties to smear the entire left and I don't appreciate it.

What proof is there that he was a registered voter at all?

199 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #184 MandyManners

What are the bases for those beleifs and do you want to impose those beliefs on everyone?


So it is the bases of those beliefs then that would make you a Theocon potentially, similar to Walters point?

Which makes sense.

200 sagehen  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:41:04am

re: #65 Racer X

ANY GOP candidate would have lost. It did not matter who McCain picked. Lieberman? Two old guys. Romney? Another white religious fanatic. Rudy? Another career politician. The attacks would have doomed any VP choice. Palin was an easy target.

It didn't help that throughout the primaries, all the candidates kept trying to out-Bush each other. They went on and on and on about how supportive they were of Bush/Cheney, how intended to continue and even extend all Bush/Cheney policies. Double the size of Gitmo! Make the Bush tax cuts permanent, and cut even deeper! Outlaw abortion! Drill for oil in national parks! Deregulate everything, dismantle the SEC! Privatize Social Security and Medicare! Close the public schools and just give everyone vouchers to send their kids to church schools, the radical leftists can have secular private schools.

There was no way to tack back to the middle for the general. Just wasn't going to happen.

If Romney hadn't turned himself into such a pretzel trying to appeal to the radical base, if he'd have stood by his Massachusetts record instead of "changing his mind" about everything he said he believed in the last time he ran for something, he'd have gotten all those independents who were sort of nauseated at the way McCain morphed since 2000; and the economic meltdown would have made a business-turnaround expert very appealing.

Republicans lost 2008 because they tried to run a 2004 campaign again, after the electorate had moved on.

201 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:41:33am

re: #188 Conservative Moonbat

We still can't change the weather so your argument is not valid.

We can improve our security though and if results are any indication of performance I think we have done a damn good job considering we are the only industrialized nation in the world who has not been attacked since 911.

Oh and this also happens to be the longest span in decades in which America has not been attacked by terrorist.

202 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:41:50am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Interestingly, I suspect that there would be a lot of people on the left that would automatically call you a Theocon if you espoused those concerns.

Yes, yet a person may just not like gay folks and therefor not want them to be married, in which case he is a bigot, not a Theocon.

203 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:42:21am

re: #183 MandyManners
It's always bothered me to see bat-shiite whackos who go ballistic and shoot /kill people categorized as left or right wingnuts, when simply nuts will do nicely.

204 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:42:53am

I think the GOP is going to need a Mondale Moment in order to recover. Nothing short of a complete ass kicking will get the point across, I fear.

205 Perplexed  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:43:12am

Keep pushing for ideological purity and you'll never find a candidate worthy of holding office. That pretty much guarantees that the liberals will continue holding office.

206 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:43:26am

As far as Dobson et al having ' a death grip on the Republican party', that's a tad global How about the more realistic assessment that NY Republicans are a schizophrenic bunch and have been for a long time... see Albany antics .
What is more likely is that Scozowhatsherface realized that when the party's over her, the party's over, and got out while the getting was possible.

207 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:43:39am

re: #202 filetandrelease

Yes, yet a person may just not like gay folks and therefor not want them to be married, in which case he is a bigot, not a Theocon.

Just a point by the way. I do not mean to imply there are only two potential reasons for the position.

208 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:44:09am

re: #204 Sharmuta

You mean the kind of ass kicking that Deeds is getting in VA?

209 suchislife  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:44:28am

Do you guys here like nate silver? I always check him first when something happens that potentially changes the numbers in an election.

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com...]

210 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:44:29am

re: #201 lrsshadow

We still can't change the weather so your argument is not valid.

We can improve our security though and if results are any indication of performance I think we have done a damn good job considering we are the only industrialized nation in the world who has not been attacked since 911.

Oh and this also happens to be the longest span in decades in which America has not been attacked by terrorist.

Funny. You just posted this link:

[Link: www.katv.com...]

Looks like a terrorist attack to me.

211 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:45:02am

re: #204 Sharmuta

I think the GOP is going to need a Mondale Moment in order to recover. Nothing short of a complete ass kicking will get the point across, I fear.

I thought that happened in 2008. Must have just gotten the one buttcheek.

212 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:45:29am

PIMF re 206, wow, the 'puter ate my period at the end of that sentence...///

213 rwmofo  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:45:34am

re: #208 tradewind

You mean the kind of ass kicking that Deeds is getting in VA?

Heh. I'm waiting to hear how Katie Couric plans to spin this.

214 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:46:02am

The far right is now emulating the far left. It seems to work these days in the political game.

I now make up a list of the top ten issues most important to me for an upcoming election race. All of them are fiscal concerns, not a single social or religious item in the list. I then check off which candidate supports my positions based upon their record, not what they say.

Here's the unfortunate reality for me anyway. In each and every case as of late, the teabagging/anti-abortion/anti-gay marriage/wingnut supports those fiscal issues important to me, while the other candidate usually never even gets a single check in his/her column on my list. The comparison is not usually even close.

I don't give a crap about gay marriage, abortion, etc. I care about my wallet and the overall future financial security of our nation getting abducted by government, something happening more and more frequently.

I don't live in NY-23, but if I did, my 10 point checklist would have had at least 8 marks for Hoffman if not more. Sure, I have to hold my nose for the nutjob creationist loons, but at least I don't have to hold my wallet at all times.

Maybe I'm too focused on fiscal things and need to pay attention a bit more ( or a lot more) to the social arguments of the day. Or maybe too many people are narrowly interested in the gay marriage saga, etc., and base their choices solely on social issues and such. But, I've never thought it was any business of government one way or another to butt into such things.

Here's a snapshot of a political party that would get my vote every time: If you want an abortion, fine, but you're paying for it. Is that so hard?

215 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:46:43am

re: #211 wrenchwench

I thought that happened in 2008. Must have just gotten the one buttcheek.

It's only a flesh wound!

216 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:46:49am

re: #190 lrsshadow

Oh then why are the left wing organizations holding rallies with extreme Muslim groups like Hamas, Hezbula, etc in America over the last 8 years. I am pretty sure that Muhammad didn't vote republican either.

I live in the Little Rock area and there was no evidence that Muhammad/Bledsoe was anything but a guy who decided to have his own personal jihaid against the local military reps.

217 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:47:40am

re: #214 borgcube

I feel pretty much the same. But am keeping one eye on the Theocons. They make me nervous.

218 suchislife  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:48:11am

re: #214 borgcube

How do you explain that (in your opinion) they get almost everything wrong except for the very complicated issue of economics?

219 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:48:14am

re: #209 suchislife

Do you guys here like nate silver? I always check him first when something happens that potentially changes the numbers in an election.

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com...]

Don't know whether I like him, but this is a good point from your link:

It's not quite so clear how Hoffman stands to benefit from this. Although a majority of Scozzafava's supporters are Republican (about 62 percent, by my reckoning), it is safe to assume that they are mostly rather moderate Republicans, because almost all the conservative Republicans had already gone over to Hoffman. To wit, two-thirds of Scozzafava's supporters say they like Barack Obama
220 subsailor68  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:49:00am

re: #201 lrsshadow

We still can't change the weather so your argument is not valid.

We can improve our security though and if results are any indication of performance I think we have done a damn good job considering we are the only industrialized nation in the world who has not been attacked since 911.

Oh and this also happens to be the longest span in decades in which America has not been attacked by terrorist.

Actually, in one sense it is valid. If Conservative Moonbat was using the Katrina example as an absurd example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, it's legit. I think he was simply making the point that simply noting that there hasn't been an attack since 9/11, and therefore everything we've done in the area of security since then has contributed to that fact, may be an example of "after the fact, therefore because of the fact."

Some things we've done certainly contribute to our security, others may be questionable. I think that was the point.

221 suchislife  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:49:02am

re: #218 suchislife

If I understood you right.

222 lastlaugh  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:49:31am

re: #209 suchislife

Do you guys here like nate silver? I always check him first when something happens that potentially changes the numbers in an election.

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com...]

I love his blog. Too many blogs just publish favorable poll numbers, or a list of polls without any kind of analysis. Nate is definitely liberal, but always very articulate and really fleshes out his reasoning. I'm a statistician by trade, so yes I love it when he gets geeky.

223 suchislife  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:50:44am

re: #219 wrenchwench

He also says:
"Gun to my head? Sure, I'd take Hoffman at this point. But I'd also take the short side of the 67 percent odds that he's been given at Intrade."

Gotta go!

224 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:51:18am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Interestingly, I suspect that there would be a lot of people on the left that would automatically call you a Theocon if you espoused those concerns.

No, I think those people would be a minority (a vocal one!) on the left. Mostly we'd be confused why someone who said they were Conservative would want the state interfering in an individuals ability to exercise control over their own body and also we'd object to the state having a legitimate interest in relegating marriage and all the legal ramifications that come with being married to men and women and not same sex couples of equal legal stature.

225 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #217 filetandrelease

Agreed. But what do you think has more of a chance of happening, complete fiscal ruin of our economy, or a theocratic government in the US? The latter simply ain't gonna happen. The former is already well on its way.

226 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:54:20am

re: #225 borgcube

Agreed. But what do you think has more of a chance of happening, complete fiscal ruin of our economy, or a theocratic government in the US? The latter simply ain't gonna happen. The former is already well on its way.

You are right, and that is a very good point.

227 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:54:23am

Politics is the art of compromise.

Fundamentalists are not known for this quality. Hence the problem.

228 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:54:29am

re: #218 suchislife

I can't. It's maddening as hell.

229 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:56:16am

On another not, it is a beautiful day here in sunny FL, a good day for a ride. And go Gators!

230 akarra  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:56:20am

re: #21 MandyManners

I, for one, won't abandon the GOP.

Neither will I - but I think a party has to be able to work with voices within it that may not pass the strictest of tests concerning ideology. Hoffman isn't a good candidate, not at all: the refusal to debate was a disgrace for anyone who has declared themselves a candidate. I'm nowhere near Scozzafava's biggest fan, but I recognize politics is about more than ideology, more than just what I personally think all the time.

The people pushing the Hoffman candidacy for the most part were the most radical and rabid of social conservatives and paleo-conservatives. The way they approach issues is just plain nuts: I'm pro-life but that doesn't mean I'm not open to compromises on certain pieces of legislation or certain rulings (sometimes this has to happen if you believe its about "keeping as many children alive as possible"), and I'm not against pro-choice candidates necessarily when someone nominally pro-life and their backing seem very suspect.

231 doubter4444  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:56:48am

Remember "All Politics is local"?
now it's
"All Politics is National"
This is very bad news for the locals and frankly, for Representative government.
Basically, the result of this is that local wishes/needs/issues can now be ignored.

And I know, in lots and lots of places, the party machine is corrupt and venal, but it should be the responsibility of the locals to throw the bums out.

Now it seems like they don't even have that chance.

I mean the guy could not even answer questions intrinsic to the district, that's pretty messed up.

232 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:57:14am

re: #226 filetandrelease

Forget about political stuff for a moment, your screen name is simply hysterical. Very good.

233 Perplexed  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:57:39am

re: #225 borgcube

Agreed. But what do you think has more of a chance of happening, complete fiscal ruin of our economy, or a theocratic government in the US? The latter simply ain't gonna happen. The former is already well on its way.

Theocratic government? Ever tried to get a civil service job (federal) in Utah and aren't Mormon?

Seen what the government is doing in California and taking loan out of your paycheck? To me that is out and out theft by the state government. I have fewer problems with Christians than I do with out of control government officials bent on increasing their power base.

234 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:57:59am

re: #230 akarra

He didn't refuse to debate, he was in one last week and has challenged his opponents to five more. (links above)

235 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #80 lawhawk

Seriously. His issue section has four (!?) issues in it.

Gays
Bank Bailout
Pork
ACORN

There is no information to be had on this guy, and that's obviously deliberate.

236 sagehen  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:58:33am

re: #170 filetandrelease

I am not sure here. Ultimately, would not the courts protect us against a Theocracy?

Depends who appointed the judges.

237 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:59:16am

re: #232 borgcube
Thanks, it might not be obvious, but I love to fish. And eat fish. And piss off PETA.

238 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 10:59:30am

re: #227 Sharmuta

Politics is the art of compromise.

Fundamentalists are not known for this quality. Hence the problem.

Neither are moonbats.

239 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:00:42am

re: #230 akarra

Neither will I - but I think a party has to be able to work with voices within it that may not pass the strictest of tests concerning ideology. Hoffman isn't a good candidate, not at all: the refusal to debate was a disgrace for anyone who has declared themselves a candidate. I'm nowhere near Scozzafava's biggest fan, but I recognize politics is about more than ideology, more than just what I personally think all the time.

The people pushing the Hoffman candidacy for the most part were the most radical and rabid of social conservatives and paleo-conservatives. The way they approach issues is just plain nuts: I'm pro-life but that doesn't mean I'm not open to compromises on certain pieces of legislation or certain rulings (sometimes this has to happen if you believe its about "keeping as many children alive as possible"), and I'm not against pro-choice candidates necessarily when someone nominally pro-life and their backing seem very suspect.

He's debated and has challenged his opponent(s) to further debates. The links are above. I'll find them.

240 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:00:46am

re: #198 Conservative Moonbat

Look this isn't the first time anti-war people (who are really anti-military) have attacked veterans. The mainstream left may not support these attacks, but many sure as hell feed the fires by saying "we are in Iraq killing civilians wholesale" or "this is an illegal war and our soldiers are turning into monsters" or any other type of BS about our soldiers. We saw it during Vietnam and we have seen it over the last 8 years.

241 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:00:51am

re: #236 sagehen

Depends who appointed the judges.

Could you imagine the battle in the Senate over a Theocon judge?

242 akarra  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:02:04am

re: #239 MandyManners

I'll go take a look - thanks.

243 lastlaugh  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #235 dugmartsch

Seriously. His issue section has four (!?) issues in it.

Gays
Bank Bailout
Pork
ACORN

There is no information to be had on this guy, and that's obviously deliberate.

And here's his grandiose argument against gay marriage:

I was brought up to believe marriage is between a man and a woman. That's how I feel. I don't want to persecute anyone but that's what I believe. Marriage ought to stay marriage. Period

1/4 of his public platform, ladies and gentlemen, is that his mom taught him queers ought not get hitched.

244 lrsshadow  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:02:35am

re: #210 Conservative Moonbat

well then by that standard any shooting is a attack of terrorism? I think you are trying to mash thing up.

245 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:03:16am

re: #230 akarra

Nos. 182 and 191.

246 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:04:42am

re: #237 filetandrelease

Thanks, it might not be obvious, but I love to fish. And eat fish. And piss off PETA.

Kilz teh see kittehs!

247 akarra  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #245 MandyManners

Nos. 182 and 191.

Got it - thank you so much!

248 filetandrelease  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:05:38am

re: #246 MandyManners

Kilz teh see kittehs!

Hey, there is more than one way to skin a kat.

249 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:06:00am

The "Big Tent" be shrinkin'

250 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:07:12am

Feel kicked out of the GOP?

Try:
Modern Whig Party.
Whig Video.

— blatant Ojoebot says hi.

251 rwmofo  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:08:07am

Mi dos centavos:

I'm not fazed by those (usually on the left) who use a small percentage of clowns on the far right--or just clowns--as a characterization of the entire Republican party. So some clowns have supported Hoffman. Big deal. How many clowns supported Governor Dukakis from their prison cells while "conservatives" were against Dukakis for being soft on crime?

There are a few degrees of separation from clowns on both sides with their party leaders. But there are at least a couple exceptions. Hoffman would represent one seat out of 435 and will likely never rise to a leadership position. OTOH, Rep. Pelosi claims "the CIA lies all the time" and Senator Reid claimed "this war is lost" while our troops were deployed on the battlefield. In these two cases Democrat party leaders have publicly come out against people who are trying to protect us from terrorists. Then there's Pelosi and Reid's best friend the NY Times running a full page ad attaking General Petraeus while our troops are deployed in a hostile country. Additionally they claim they want to insure everyone, while the truth is that they want to use the power of the government to control as much of the previously private sector, and our lives, as possible.

...still looking for a compelling reason to vote democrat, but don't see one.

252 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:08:17am

The KosKidz tried to swing elections for years and never really had much luck. Kos endorsed candidates had a lousy record of election victories. It's prettu impressive that the Tea Parties pulled this off on their first try.

253 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:08:19am

re: #249 _RememberTonyC

The "Big Tent" be shrinkin'

Or focusing!
//
just sayin

I don't have a horse in this race, but from what I've seen/read/heard was (is) there any difference between Scozzafazza and Owens on issues because I didn't see any?

254 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:08:27am

re: #149 The Sanity Inspector My Dad's is today, and he's a peach, so you can't generalize. However, my brother's was yesterday... he was scheduled as a C section for the 31st, and my Mom said one halloweenie in the fam was enough...
re: #177 Jeff In Ohio
Demonizing Halloween is silly, on so many levels...
literally. I go nuts decorating with the bats, spiders, black cats, and pumpkins, but the witches/vampires /demons stuff not so much. The weirdos have gone so dark with that in the past few years that I don't want to encourage any of the latent sickos

255 tradewind  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:09:38am

re: #236 sagehen

Not always. Souter comes to mind.

256 HC4BO  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:09:57am

I've gotta say I am REALLY LOVING this spectacle ...


Just imagine if the Tea Partiers managed to do this to EVERY single GOP candidate they DID NOT like ( ahem Crist ) ...


It can render the coming elections VERY Entertaining ...

257 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:11:58am

re: #244 lrsshadow

well then by that standard any shooting is a attack of terrorism? I think you are trying to mash thing up.

It was an attack to terrorize and make a political statement. It was an act of jihad. I don't see how you can argue it wasn't a terrorist attack, just like the murder of George Tiller. That was another act of terrorism on US soil.

258 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #233 Perplexed

Utah? Sorry, haven't applied for a federal job there lately. Only go there to ski. Back in the day, I did almost get a friend kicked out of college when I brought a 12-pack of beer into his dorm room at BYU. I really didn't know too much about such things 30 years ago.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. I own two small businesses in California. Unreal what's happening here. BTW, we used to be a Republican state, and things seemed to be much better then. Even here in San Diego, Democrats now outnumber Republicans, never thought I'd see that. So, if all of those old Republican leaders who used to run California were secretly creationist weirdos, and when compared to our now oh so much more enlightened Democratic brainiacs in charge, I'd take the creationist weirdos back in a heartbeat. Not even close.

My hunch however, is that the creationist fringe of the Republican Party is a more recent occurrence and that the lunatic left is also a latter day movement (hehehe) now in charge of the Democrat Party. Extremes everywhere. A freaking mess.

259 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:14:22am

Just noticed the John Mayer album in the left sidebar. I can't play music out loud in my present undisclosed location, so I can't preview the clips. But one of these performances was quite enjoyable, I remember.

260 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:14:38am

Not a spoof...

The Danger of Celebrating Halloween

During this period demons are assigned against those who participate in the rituals and festivities. These demons are automatically drawn to the fetishes that open doors for them to come into the lives of human beings. For example, most of the candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches.

I do not buy candy during the Halloween season. Curses are sent through the tricks and treats of the innocent whether they get it by going door to door or by purchasing it from the local grocery store. The demons cannot tell the difference.
...
Halloween is much more than a holiday filled with fun and tricks or treats. It is a time for the gathering of evil that masquerades behind the fictitious characters of Dracula, werewolves, mummies and witches on brooms. The truth is that these demons that have been presented as scary cartoons actually exist. I have prayed for witches who are addicted to drinking blood and howling at the moon.

While the lukewarm and ignorant think of these customs as "just harmless fun," the vortexes of hell are releasing new assignments against souls. Witches take pride in laughing at the ignorance of natural men (those who ignore the spirit realm).

261 bratwurst  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:15:00am

re: #256 HC4BO

I've gotta say I am REALLY LOVING this spectacle ...

Just imagine if the Tea Partiers managed to do this to EVERY single GOP candidate they DID NOT like ( ahem Crist ) ...

It can render the coming elections VERY Entertaining ...


While I am an Obama voter and a card-carrying member of the ACLU, I disagree. I'll take an opposition party that has a big problem with the John Birch Society over entertainment value any day of the week.

262 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:17:37am

re: #256 HC4BO

I've gotta say I am REALLY LOVING this spectacle ...

Just imagine if the Tea Partiers managed to do this to EVERY single GOP candidate they DID NOT like ( ahem Crist ) ...

It can render the coming elections VERY Entertaining ...

Yeah. Nothing makes me want to grab a bowl of popcorn faster than watching far-right populists mainstream theocratic-nativists candidates. ///

Maybe folks on the left think this is amusing stuff, but I find it rather a disturbing trend that's mirroring euro-politics at this time, and it doesn't have a good track record.

263 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:18:04am

re: #251 rwmofo

Mi dos centavos:

I'm not fazed by those (usually on the left) who use a small percentage of clowns on the far right--or just clowns--as a characterization of the entire Republican party. So some clowns have supported Hoffman. Big deal. How many clowns supported Governor Dukakis from their prison cells while "conservatives" were against Dukakis for being soft on crime?

There are a few degrees of separation from clowns on both sides with their party leaders. But there are at least a couple exceptions. Hoffman would represent one seat out of 435 and will likely never rise to a leadership position. OTOH, Rep. Pelosi claims "the CIA lies all the time" and Senator Reid claimed "this war is lost" while our troops were deployed on the battlefield. In these two cases Democrat party leaders have publicly come out against people who are trying to protect us from terrorists. Then there's Pelosi and Reid's best friend the NY Times running a full page ad attaking General Petraeus while our troops are deployed in a hostile country. Additionally they claim they want to insure everyone, while the truth is that they want to use the power of the government to control as much of the previously private sector, and our lives, as possible.

...still looking for a compelling reason to vote democrat, but don't see one.

You forgot John Fucking Murtha.

264 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:19:46am

re: #253 sattv4u2

Or focusing!
//
just sayin

I don't have a horse in this race, but from what I've seen/read/heard was (is) there any difference between Scozzafazza and Owens on issues because I didn't see any?


I think Charles said a week or two back that this was primarily a battle between the pro choice and pro life sides. And I say that until the GOP de-emphasizes the abortion issue, it is screwed with a large number of Americans who may not love the idea of getting an abortion, but don't want to return to the days of back alley abortions and all the horrors that accompany them.

265 avanti  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:20:08am

Nate Silver looks at NY.

link.

266 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:20:50am

re: #251 rwmofo

...still looking for a compelling reason to vote democrat, but don't see one.

Vote for candidates, not parties.

267 sagehen  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:21:09am

re: #258 borgcube

Utah?
I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. I own two small businesses in California. Unreal what's happening here. BTW, we used to be a Republican state, and things seemed to be much better then. Even here in San Diego, Democrats now outnumber Republicans, never thought I'd see that.

That's what happens when Republican mayors and Republican city council strips the pension fund, drives the city bankrupt, and mismanages their credit rating down to junk bond status.

San Diego Republicans' hideous track record is entirely responsible for the people of San Diego turning Democrat.

268 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #266 Conservative Moonbat

Vote for candidates, not parties.

Party trumps candidates.

269 funky chicken  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #252 Killgore Trout

The KosKidz tried to swing elections for years and never really had much luck. Kos endorsed candidates had a lousy record of election victories. It's prettu impressive that the Tea Parties pulled this off on their first try.

Well, the Kos Kidz got the primary win for Lamont in CT. Of course Joe Lieberman won the general election. I'll be interested to see if Hoffman actually wins the general. My guess? His chances are pretty slim.

I also had no idea that RS McCain is such a big part of Hoffman's inner circle--accompanying him to press interviews and appearances, and Hoffman let McCain break the Scozzafava withdrawal story, apparently.

Yuck.

270 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:22:16am

re: #268 Walter L. Newton

Party trumps candidates.

Not when I vote.

271 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:22:24am

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Oh well. Halloween is my favorite "holiday." I've already been to about 10 haunted houses and such. I recently was in Colombia and then New Orleans, and took in about six in those places. New Orleans rules the haunted house circuit...House of Shock and Haunted Mausoleum were great, and of course, the old cemeteries always live up to the hype.

I don't eat too much candy if at all, so maybe that's why the demons haven't taken over my body yet. Whew! Heading out tonight for more Halloween fun, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for those nasty vortexes from Hell. Thanks for the update!

272 harpsicon  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:22:42am

re: #141 Gus 802

Found some issue positions by Doug Hoffman here.

That might make the wall builders or fence builders heads explode.

I haven't seen anything to make me think that Hoffman is a nut. Dede was chosen by the party hacks with no input from anybody, and was a terrible choice.

Last time, in a time-honored if weird NY tradition of running on multiple lines, Dede also ran on the Working Families ticket - but that party is more or less an ACORN front. It's hard to see Dede taking any serious and important Republican stands, like being against outrageous spending and union control.

If those things aren't there, and the person is also accepting ACORN support, she wouldn't be acceptable to me if I were living in that district. After all, far left Dems whom you wouldn't want to be associated with do indeed support more moderate Dems. If some far right Repubs do the same, we either don't vote or live with it. In the current climate picking up the seat is more important than being pure, imo.

273 Four More Tears  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:22:55am

re: #262 Sharmuta


Maybe folks on the left think this is amusing stuff, but I find it rather a disturbing trend that's mirroring euro-politics at this time, and it doesn't have a good track record.

Some of us do. They love seeing the opposition disintegrate in to this mess, not realizing that someday these people may very well be making important decisions for them with their votes. It's shortsighted at best and quite childish.

274 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #264 _RememberTonyC

Scozzafazza has many more liberal beleifes than just pro-choice, which in my book is the least of the issues, as although I am a fiscal conservative I 100% agreed with the Clintonian theme on abortion
Legal
Safe
and rare

275 HappyWarrior  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:23:35am

I wonder if she endorses Owens or stays neutral. No way in hell does she endorse Hoffman. I feel bad for her honestly. Most of the people who pushed her out of this race have nothing to do with her district including her opponent himself. I realize it's legal but it's just so sleazy. Purity will get you no where in politics.

276 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:24:31am

re: #266 Conservative Moonbat

Vote for candidates, not parties.

Well, that's what the right-wing mutineers in NY-23 are doing, isn't it?

277 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:24:56am

#203 tradewind

It's always bothered me to see bat-shiite whackos who go ballistic and shoot /kill people categorized as left or right wingnuts, when simply nuts will do nicely.

Maybe. But it's also quite important to distinguish the Hinckley's from the Roeder's. One is a nutjob. One is a nutjob attempting to further the cause of a political movement in his nutjob way. One there's no way to predict or protect against. One is a rather predictable consequence of a group that engages in inflammatory rhetoric and tacitly encourages violence.

278 borgcube  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:25:41am

re: #267 sagehen

That's why I now so heavily weigh my vote for fiscally conservative candidates, regardless of their kooky religious bs. Modern day Democrats and Republicans are sinking us.

279 Irenicum  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:25:45am

re: #209 suchislife

Nate Silver is one of the better analysts out there. He's openly liberal, but his number crunching is exceptional.

280 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #269 funky chicken

It looks like he might have a decent shot depending on how Scozzafava's supporters break. I also think there's more big money behind the Tea Parties than meets the eye. The GOP is in such disarray that the party can be taken over. A lot of people who have been sitting on the sidelines are now jumping in. having your own political party buys a lot of influence and the GOP is for sale relatively cheap these days.

281 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:26:53am

re: #276 The Sanity Inspector

Well, that's what the right-wing mutineers in NY-23 are doing, isn't it?

They are voting how they've been told to vote by Palin, et al.

282 MandyManners  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:28:23am

re: #277 dugmartsch

#203 tradewind


Maybe. But it's also quite important to distinguish the Hinckley's from the Roeder's. One is a nutjob. One is a nutjob attempting to further the cause of a political movement in his nutjob way. One there's no way to predict or protect against. One is a rather predictable consequence of a group that engages in inflammatory rhetoric and tacitly encourages violence.

Well said.

283 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #281 Conservative Moonbat

They are voting how they've been told to vote by Palin, et al.

And who is "telling" people to vote for Owens?

284 webevintage  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #262 Sharmuta



Maybe folks on the left think this is amusing stuff, but I find it rather a disturbing trend that's mirroring euro-politics at this time, and it doesn't have a good track record.

A train wreck while interesting, is still a sad event, and though I might find the inter party "all you can eat buffet" that the Republicans are becoming, I do not relish the idea of a weak but bat shit crazy opposition party.

I like the Republican party and their polices being based in reality and not what Glen Beck and Michelle Bachman have divined from the art work at Rockefeller Center or the voices in their heads.
And one thing this country does not need is a more powerful Theocratic Reconstructionist Movement with some Rushdoony acolytes at the head or given a voice on FOX News.

285 dugmartsch  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:40:21am

re: #118 albusteve

haha!...the health care legislation is the most far out, batshit crazy, lunatic legislation ever to make it out of committee...just for perspective

This nicely illustrates my fundamental problem with the Republican party at the moment: I have no idea if this is sarcasm or not.

286 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:41:13am

re: #283 sattv4u2

And who is "telling" people to vote for Owens?

All of Owens voters support him after carefully weighing the candidates' positions on each issue, carefully researching each candidate's voting record, and making probing, sober assessments of each candidates' character. If they didn't, they would belong to the groupthink right wing, and not to the Herd of Independent Minds.
///

287 Irenicum  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:42:48am

re: #269 funky chicken

Yuck is right, except that I'd change one little letter.

288 Irenicum  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #260 Killgore Trout

So maybe I shouldn't go to Salem tonight after all?

289 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:44:44am

The third party will be the GOP.

290 Sharmuta  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:51:13am

re: #284 webevintage

A train wreck while interesting, is still a sad event, and though I might find the inter party "all you can eat buffet" that the Republicans are becoming, I do not relish the idea of a weak but bat shit crazy opposition party.

I like the Republican party and their polices being based in reality and not what Glen Beck and Michelle Bachman have divined from the art work at Rockefeller Center or the voices in their heads.
And one thing this country does not need is a more powerful Theocratic Reconstructionist Movement with some Rushdoony acolytes at the head or given a voice on FOX News.

This theocratic racist shit isn't what I signed up for, so if they're going to stick with this, they can count me out. The best thing for this country is for people like this to lose elections. Once the GOP figures that out- they'll stop nominating these people, and we can get back to issues that matter- like balancing the budget instead of discussing obama's art selections.

291 jvic  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:59:47am

re: #218 suchislife

How do you explain that (in your opinion) they get almost everything wrong except for the very complicated issue of economics?

Maybe economics is deliberately made much more complicated than it ought to be: made so by people who intend to manipulate the complexity to their own advantage. Crises like the one we're in are often due to such wise guys.

I'm not saying economics is simple. I'm not saying that all complexity is intrinsically bad.

I am saying that in this imperfect world, complexity is often misused. The misuse of complexity happens so often that we might be better off sticking with a subpar simple policy than trying to implement a nominally better complicated one. Once the special interests and their lobbyists get through with a complex policy...
*** *** ***
Btw, the Bush/Rove/DeLay/Lott crowd were not cough fiscally exemplary.

292 TDG2112  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #47 Jetpilot1101

There are two possibilities:
Hoffman wins, Republicans go through with a very thorough purge thereby alienating the entire center and postponing a return to conservative government.

The Democrat wins, cold water gets thrown on the social conservatives and pragmatists regain some voice and power in the Republican party.

Voting for the Democrat is the same as voting for a practical and pragmatic Republican party interested in solving real problems rather than imagined.

293 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:02:46pm

re: #292 TDG2112

There are two possibilities:
Hoffman wins, Republicans go through with a very thorough purge thereby alienating the entire center and postponing a return to conservative government.

The Democrat wins, cold water gets thrown on the social conservatives and pragmatists regain some voice and power in the Republican party.

Voting for the Democrat is the same as voting for a practical and pragmatic Republican party interested in solving real problems rather than imagined.

So where were all the Dems lining up to vote for Scozzafava as a show of bipartisanship?

294 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #292 TDG2112

re: #293 sattv4u2

So where were all the Dems lining up to vote for Scozzafava as a show of bipartisanship?


oh ,, wait ,,, siily me

Bipartisanship happens only when Repubs agree and side with dem ideas, not when dems side with Repubs!

295 funky chicken  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:13:51pm

re: #293 sattv4u2

So where were all the Dems lining up to vote for Scozzafava as a show of bipartisanship?

The point of his comment was that a vote for Owens would be a vote for sanity to reassert itself in the GOP. If Hoffman wins, the howling fundies will believe that they really do own the GOP and therefore needn't tolerate any ideological impurity.

296 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:17:36pm

re: #220 subsailor68

(snip)

Some things we've done certainly contribute to our security, others may be questionable. I think that was the point.

I'm willing to believe Patriot Act marginally increased my security. It
also clearly reduced my sense of liberty. When did the nation endorse
the trade-off?

297 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #268 Walter L. Newton

Party trumps candidates.

Ideology just trumped party.

298 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:26:48pm

re: #295 funky chicken

The point of his comment was that a vote for Owens would be a vote for sanity to reassert itself in the GOP. If Hoffman wins, the howling fundies will believe that they really do own the GOP and therefore needn't tolerate any ideological impurity.

I understood that, and mine was tongue in cheek to an extent. That stated, there was little to choose from between Owens and Scozzafava

299 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:28:48pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

I'm willing to believe Patriot Act marginally increased my security. It
also clearly reduced my sense of liberty. When did the nation endorse
the trade-off?

Just out of curiousity, but what "liberties" do you sense you lost?

If it means I have to take my shoes off and stand in a line for a few extra minutes before boarding a plane, I'll "endorse that trade off"

300 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #294 sattv4u2

The moderate dems have a candidate that represents their interests, the moderate republicans have a candidate that represents their impending purge from the party. Stop whining and trying to create a false equivalence that does not exist.

301 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:29:20pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

re: #299 sattv4u2

Just out of curiousity, but what "liberties" do you sense you lost?

If it means I have to take my shoes off and stand in a line for a few extra minutes before boarding a plane, I'll "endorse that trade off"

And the above is spoken from a very frequent flier

302 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:30:59pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

The moderate dems have a candidate that represents their interests, the moderate republicans have a candidate that represents their impending purge from the party. Stop whining and trying to create a false equivalence that does not exist.

Sorry if you think discussing something rationally as "whining" (and btw ,, please point out the 'whine')

303 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #299 sattv4u2

I'll have to dig to sort PA effects from FISA tampering and identification
tracking, but I liked it better in Israel when I knew my phone was tapped.

304 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:32:44pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

The moderate dems have a candidate that represents their interests, the moderate republicans have a candidate that represents their impending purge from the party. Stop whining and trying to create a false equivalence that does not exist.

AND ,, actually, when it comes down to issues, both the moderate AND liberal dems as well as the moderate repubs have a candidate that represents their interests

TWO, actually. As stated above, there was little to choose from between Owens and Scozzafava issue wise

305 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:36:28pm

re: #303 Decatur Deb

I'll have to dig to sort PA effects from FISA tampering and identification
tracking, but I liked it better in Israel when I knew my phone was tapped.

WOW ,, Israel to South Alabama (thats right ,, no??)

can you say CULTURE SHOCK

306 funky chicken  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:37:48pm

re: #303 Decatur Deb

I'll have to dig to sort PA effects from FISA tampering and identification
tracking, but I liked it better in Israel when I knew my phone was tapped.

OK. So just assume the NSA has your phone tapped. That seems like an easy solution.

307 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #305 sattv4u2

WOW ,, Israel to South Alabama (thats right ,, no??)

can you say CULTURE SHOCK

Very hard to get good AL BBQ in Herzlyia. Easier in Netanya.

308 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #306 funky chicken

OK. So just assume the NSA has your phone tapped. That seems like an easy solution.

I think they are free to have it tapped. Didn't think that 10 yrs ago.

309 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:41:19pm

re: #307 Decatur Deb

Very hard to get good AL BBQ in Herzlyia. Easier in Netanya.

True ,, but hard to get a GREAT Pastrami or Corned Beef in Trinity or Flint city, no?

310 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:42:13pm

re: #309 sattv4u2

True ,, but hard to get a GREAT Pastrami or Corned Beef in Trinity or Flint city, no?

Never had good pastrami west of the Hudson.

311 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:44:24pm

re: #310 Decatur Deb

Never had good pastrami west of the Hudson.

Nor south of Manhatten

312 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:59:31pm

re: #311 sattv4u2

I will research those privacy issues for another thread. That's a nice
thing about LGF--there is a return to important themes on a
regular basis. Something must be starting at the top of the blog. (Malkin thread.)

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 1:58:30pm

re: #165 filetandrelease

Just a general question, if you want to overturn Roe vs Wade, and let the states decide individually, and if you believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that make you a Theocon?

If you oppose any legislation that gives gay people equal rights, I'd say you're heading in that direction. If you're hung up on the word "marriage" but don't mind civil unions, gay adoption, etc, then hey, you've taken Obama's position.

314 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

If you oppose any legislation that gives gay people equal rights, I'd say you're heading in that direction. If you're hung up on the word "marriage" but don't mind civil unions, gay adoption, etc, then hey, you've taken Obama's position.

And if you think "Freedom is for everyone" and endorse gay marriage, then hey, you've taken Dick Cheney's position.

315 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:05:52pm

re: #302 sattv4u2

Sorry if you think discussing something rationally as "whining" (and btw ,, please point out the 'whine')

You were whining in trying to twist the issue here about what you interpret as a hypocritical dem vs. rep approach to "bipartisanship," when TGD2112 was clearly discussing rational self interest instead.

AND ,, actually, when it comes down to issues, both the moderate AND liberal dems as well as the moderate repubs have a candidate that represents their interests

Not anymore, with Dede out of the race the moderate republicans are left with nothing but Faustian bargains on both sides.

TWO, actually. As stated above, there was little to choose from between Owens and Scozzafava issue wise

Yes, I see you stating this again and again, what I don't see you doing is proving it. The disagreed on several issues from border patrol and immigration, sending more troops to Afghanistan, to agricultural regulations. They were not equivalent, not by a long shot.

316 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:06:19pm

re: #314 wrenchwench

And if you think "Freedom is for everyone" and endorse gay marriage, then hey, you've taken THAT NOTED LIBERAL/ PROGRESSIVE Dick Cheney's position.

ftfy

//

317 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:19:16pm

re: #315 goddamnedfrank

They were not equivalent, not by a long shot


OR ,,,

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

318 sattv4u2  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:23:46pm

Heading two flights upstairs

319 TDG2112  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:30:18pm

re: #295 funky chicken

The point of his comment was that a vote for Owens would be a vote for sanity to reassert itself in the GOP. If Hoffman wins, the howling fundies will believe that they really do own the GOP and therefore needn't tolerate any ideological impurity.

Apologies for not being as clearly articulate as Funky Chicken here.

My Favorite Reagan quote is "I didn't leave the Demecoratic party, the party left me" With the nuttiness in the repuplican party, I think there will be a lot of people quoting that.

320 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 2:35:08pm

re: #317 sattv4u2

Yes, obviously the one off sentiment of a single lgf poster is the best way to compare & contrast two different party's official candidates.

Listen, the only thing truly conservative about me is my firearms collection. Mostly inherited, but I have bought a few on my own, I like guns, I like the second ammendment, I could heavily arm a small village if necessary. On the issue of gun rights alone Scozzafava would have had my vote, assuming I lived in the 23rd. Owens would have been a distant second, because as much as I love my guns, theres no way someone like me is going to vote for a anti-abortion fundie crypto-theocon like Hoffman. There is a reason that upstate New York generally supports liberal republicans. Scozzafava exiting the race before the vote is the worst possible outcome, the remaining fallout is going to be all bad.

321 doubter4444  Sat, Oct 31, 2009 7:34:55pm

re: #214 borgcube

The far right is now emulating the far left. It seems to work these days in the political game.

I now make up a list of the top ten issues most important to me for an upcoming election race. All of them are fiscal concerns, not a single social or religious item in the list. I then check off which candidate supports my positions based upon their record, not what they say.

Here's the unfortunate reality for me anyway. In each and every case as of late, the teabagging/anti-abortion/anti-gay marriage/wingnut supports those fiscal issues important to me, while the other candidate usually never even gets a single check in his/her column on my list. The comparison is not usually even close.

I don't give a crap about gay marriage, abortion, etc. I care about my wallet and the overall future financial security of our nation getting abducted by government, something happening more and more frequently.

I don't live in NY-23, but if I did, my 10 point checklist would have had at least 8 marks for Hoffman if not more. Sure, I have to hold my nose for the nutjob creationist loons, but at least I don't have to hold my wallet at all times.

Maybe I'm too focused on fiscal things and need to pay attention a bit more ( or a lot more) to the social arguments of the day. Or maybe too many people are narrowly interested in the gay marriage saga, etc., and base their choices solely on social issues and such. But, I've never thought it was any business of government one way or another to butt into such things.

Here's a snapshot of a political party that would get my vote every time: If you want an abortion, fine, but you're paying for it. Is that so hard?

how do you know?
He could not answer any of the questions that are of interest to the district voters, and BTW, just what are the the "8 marks"? that you would check?


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