Scozzofava Endorsing Former Opponent?

The Watertown Daily Times, in New York’s 23rd congressional district, switches their endorsement from Republican Dede Scozzofava to Democrat Bill Owens — and they report that Scozzofava is doing the same.

During the day Saturday, she began to quietly and thoughtfully encourage her supporters to vote for Democrat William L. Owens.

The editors of the Watertown Daily Times don’t think much of cypher Doug Hoffman, new hero of far right politicians and bloggers:

Mr. Hoffman is running as an ideologue. If he carries out his pledges on earmarks, taxation, labor law reform and other inflexible positions, Northern New York will suffer. This rural district depends on the federal government for an investment in Fort Drum and its soldiers, environmental protection of our international waterway and the Adirondack Park, and the livelihood of all our dairy farmers across the district, among other support. Our representative cannot be locked into rigid promises and policies that would jeopardize these critical sectors of our economy. …

It is frightening that Mr. Hoffman is so beholden to right-wing ideologues who dismiss Northern New Yorkers as parochial when people here simply want to know how Mr. Hoffman will protect their interests in Washington.

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100 comments

1 Big Steve  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:50:17am

I found it interesting that in this morning's paper it said she was "freeing" her supporters. This explains it.

2 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:51:12am

We lefty radicals stick together.

/

3 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:53:58am
During the day Saturday, she began to quietly and thoughtfully encourage her supporters to vote for Democrat William L. Owens.

Considering hoffman is running with a theocratic nativist party, it's the only reasonable thing for her to do.

4 laZardo  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:54:26am

Leaving America's right-wing on the fringe where it belongs will have to be done one elected official at a time. Hopefully voters will recognize this insanity and leave their legacy of hate in the past come 2010.

5 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:59:32am

I can't say I blame the folks at the Watertown Daily Times. After all, Hoffman didn't care enough about them to bother learning about any issues that affect local citizens.

6 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:03:07am

We might be seeing more cases like Arlin Specter over the next few years. As the GOP purges the moderates out of the party politicians might have to switch parties in order to survive. Both Scozzofava and Specter are in northern states but they were in rural areas and solid Republican districts. The electoral map is changing and politicians are going to have to adapt to survive. If Scozzofava was smarter she would have run as a Dem and probably would have won easily.

7 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:04:26am
It is frightening that Mr. Hoffman is so beholden to right-wing ideologues who dismiss Northern New Yorkers as parochial when people here simply want to know how Mr. Hoffman will protect their interests in Washington.

Honest to goodness, this sounds like a complaint people in fly-over states have had with Democrats since the 80s, especially the "parochial" bit.

8 alexzander  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:04:27am

re: #5 funky chicken


I think it was his ignorance of local issues that should be of real concern for the voters of NY-23. Unfortunately the focus on district representation has been sabotaged by national symbolic warfare.

9 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:04:36am

For those who call themselves "conservatives" I'd like to quote the Father of the Conservative Movement:

The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they're gay. You don't have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that's what brings me into it.

And this from November 1994:

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

You've hijack our movement, and we're not going to let you hold us hostage anymore. If you're going to go RINO hunting, be prepared for a long stay in the wilderness.

10 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:05:00am

Are Republicans looking at losing the Northeast for a generation, at least?

11 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:05:15am

[Link: www.observer.com...]

Go Bill Owens! The lefty fringe doesn't like him, kind of like the righty fringe doesn't like Dede.

12 laZardo  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:06:44am

re: #9 Sharmuta

For those who call themselves "conservatives" I'd like to quote the Father of the Conservative Movement:

You've hijack our movement, and we're not going to let you hold us hostage anymore. If you're going to go RINO hunting, be prepared for a long stay in the wilderness.

I think it's important to distinguish conservatism from libertarianism at this point. While libertarian principles like financial/fiscal responsibility are certainly needed in government at this time, they should not be promoted by conservatives.

13 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:07:33am

Instapundit sez...

The main point — it’s not the election that matters, but what happens afterward.

No matter what happens the Tea Party crowd will be happy. If their guy wins it's a clear victory for the radical right. If the seat goes to the Dems then they know they can scuttle elections for the GOP and destroy moderate candidates. Either way, they're happy.

14 akarra  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:08:34am

Just wanted to say thanks for the link to the editorial - it is good to get some perspective on the issues actually facing the district.

15 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:09:35am

re: #10 JasonA

Are Republicans looking at losing the Northeast for a generation, at least?

Probably. It's also alarming that they're losing rural voters. The GOP gave up long ago on urban areas. They started weakening in the suburbs over the past decade. Now they're losing rural areas. There's nowhere else to go.

16 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:09:45am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

sick, sad, but true

17 rollwave87  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:10:40am

I've been a registered Republican since the day I turned 18...but if I was a voter in Oswego or Watertown, Id definitely be voting for the Dem on Tuesday. think of what will history say about this race...the GOP turned on it's own candidate because she didn't hate gays enough, or want enough government control over women's bodies. shameful. I'm not leaving the GOP, I don't think I ever will. I'll keep on fighting for the party of Lincoln and not just sit idly by while it's taken over by the Christian version of the Taliban. as far as NY23 is concerned, those of us enlightened Republicans certainly lost the battle, but the war hasn't even really begun.

18 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:13:59am

Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned

19 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:14:37am

for anybody who's curious, here's Owens's website "issues" page:

[Link: www.billowensforcongress.com...]

I'd forgotten about Plattsburg AFB. It's a damn shame they closed it. I heard it was a nice place to spend a tour...much better than Godforsaken Minot, ND.

20 laZardo  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:19:10am

Headin' to bed. 1:18 AM and I'm trying to get myself to sleep earlier. Cheers.

21 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:22:17am

Adirondack State Park is a protected reserve and the state has sought to expand it from time to time, buying up additional tracts of land. The St. Lawrence Waterway is governed by a compact between the US and Canada, and watershed issues are governed by the EPA and state DEP.

What should be Hoffman's top issue, and which is ignored by the paper?

Jobs.

That's right folks.

Jobs.

Fort Drum is important, but the district covers such a vast area that not everyone is reliant on Fort Drum. It needs more jobs, and that's an issue that goes for all of upstate NY. The region has been hemmoraging jobs for years, and the state's response has largely been to raise taxes further and provide some state programs that never seem to do the trick in encouraging job growth.

What jobs policies will he bring to the table. That - above all else - is what needs to be determined. Without the jobs, revenues don't come in to state and federal coffers.

22 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:23:05am

Sad, sad GOP.

The circus called; they want their big tent back.

23 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:23:35am
The candidates forum at Plattsburgh State Thursday evening was revealing and helpful exposition for the two participating candidates for the 23rd Congressional District seat and especially for attendees and voters. It was at the very least a rare and wasted opportunity for the third candidate, Conservative Douglas Hoffman, who failed to show up.

Democrat William Owens and Republican Dierdre Scozzafava acquitted themselves well before hundreds of people who attended the forum, sponsored by the Plattsburgh Chapter of United University Professions, the Plattsburgh State Student Association and the Plattsburgh Area League of Women Voters.

Scozzafava, a longtime assemblywoman, proved the more savvy politician and comfortable speaker by providing more specific, focused answers to many questions. Owens tended toward generalities. For example, he assured he would study the need for more combat troops in Afghanistan, whereas Sozzafava said unequivocally that the safety of the troops already in the war zone required stationing more soldiers there. Owens promised more jobs for the district; Scozzafava said what is first needed is fewer taxes and less stifling government regulation.

Yet you came away with confidence that either one would make the interests of voters of their district their top priority.

Throughout the 75-minute forum, though, frequent allusions to Hoffman's absence emerged, and that can't have helped the Conservative.

Moderator Brian Mann of North Country Public Radio scolded Hoffman at the outset, saying he had talked with the candidate earlier in the day — in Plattsburgh — and was told there was nothing on Hoffman's schedule to keep him from attending.

This military spouse would like to issue a hearty "FY" to the rabld knuckledraggers for killing Dede's candidacy.

[Link: www.pressrepublican.com...]

24 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:24:22am

re: #19 funky chicken

It's interesting to compare to Hoofman's page. Owen's issues are much more positive. He's actually for things, Hoffman is mostly against things. It's a pervasive mentality on the right that they desperately need to work on.

25 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:25:09am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

We've seen it on both sides of the aisle - if you're not fully beholden to the party, you're getting tossed. See Lieberman, Joe (I-CT).

He opposed the Democrat platform, particularly on the war on Iraq, and the leftists in the party forced him out. They're still on the prowl.

26 rollwave87  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:25:11am

did anyone see Plouffe on Meet the Press today? I certainly was no fan of his a year ago at this time, but his analysis of this NY-23 race and Sarah Palin's role as the GOP's pied-piper (sp?) was spot on.

27 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:25:19am

re: #23 funky chicken

This military spouse would like to issue a hearty "FY" to the rabld knuckledraggers for killing Dede's candidacy.

[Link: www.pressrepublican.com...]

She's for gay marriage. What issue os mre important to America than that??

/

28 Merryweather  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:26:05am

Of course, Malkin and her fellow wingnuts will consider themselves vindicated by Scozzafava endorsing Owens. To them, it'll be proof that she is a 'radical leftist.' It's a vicious cycle of stupid.

29 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:26:52am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

That's a huge issue - GOPers have to stand for something, not against items. Positive message may tend to resonate, even though negative ad campaigns tend to get the votes (or at least deter voting).

The GOP needs to work on its message at all levels - if they want to work out from the mess they're in.

30 Merryweather  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:28:09am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

These days you can sum up the Republican platform by adding an N behind the O in GOP.

31 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:28:47am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

It's interesting to compare to Hoofman's page. Owen's issues are much more positive. He's actually for things, Hoffman is mostly against things. It's a pervasive mentality on the right that they desperately need to work on.

Thats just not true
2 snippetts

Immigration "The answer is to create an easier path for immigrants to enter the United States – and to work here"

Stimulus "What I would have supported is a bill that puts real money in the hands of Americans to spend, not federal bureaucrats… and a bill that spent money on capital projects that would have put people to work now,"


I'm not endorsing him nor supporting him, I'm merely pointing out what you stated is not accurate

32 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:29:33am

re: #25 lawhawk

We've seen it on both sides of the aisle - if you're not fully beholden to the party, you're getting tossed. See Lieberman, Joe (I-CT).

He opposed the Democrat platform, particularly on the war on Iraq, and the leftists in the party forced him out. They're still on the prowl.


That's a good point. The Koskidz spent a lot of time and energy endorsing progressive candidates but as far as I know they never successfully scuttled an election. They desperately wanted to get rid of Lieberman and they still do. I think the Tea Party tactics are different. They are more destructive to their own party than the progressives were to the Dems. The Tea Party crowd even admits that they're fine with sinking their own party to get what they want. Even the Koskidz were smarter than that.

33 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:29:46am

re: #30 Merryweather

Heh.

34 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:30:10am

Read the comments to this editorial. You have the leftists screaming that they won't vote for Owens, the righties screaming about Dede, etc.

So I really do hope Owens wins.

[Link: www.pressrepublican.com...]

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:33:16am

re: #31 sattv4u2

That's why I used the word "mostly". He lists 14 issues as his platform. He's opposed to 9. Owen's page lists 5 main topics. All of them positive positions. There's a pretty large difference there.

36 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:34:18am
37 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:35:30am

I have this crazy fantasy in my mind of an America where politicians are only allowed to take money from their constituents. Running for NY-23? You can only take money from registered voters in NY-23. Be beholden to the people you represent and no one else. Is that rational or should I commit myself right now?

38 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:35:59am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

That's why I used the word "mostly". He lists 14 issues as his platform. He's opposed to 9. Owen's page lists 5 main topics. All of them positive positions. There's a pretty large difference there.

I look at Owens' 'positive" positions, but before I do, tell me

Do all (or most) incluce increase and/or new gov't spendings?

39 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:37:52am

re: #25 lawhawk

We've seen it on both sides of the aisle - if you're not fully beholden to the party, you're getting tossed. See Lieberman, Joe (I-CT).

He opposed the Democrat platform, particularly on the war on Iraq, and the leftists in the party forced him out. They're still on the prowl.

Lieberman tossed himself out.
He lost an election and then decided that he was not going to play be the rules so he ran as an independent.
That means he can play both sides and ignore his constituants all he wants or claim they just don't know what they are talking about.
He is not a Democrat.

So far no DEms have been tossed... look at Mike Ross and Miz Blanche here in Arkansas. Neither seems like a Dem to me, but neither has been kicked out or even punished, hell Blanche even got the committee chairmanship she's been salivatting over for the past few years.

40 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:38:20am

re: #37 JasonA

I have this crazy fantasy in my mind of an America where politicians are only allowed to take money from their constituents. Running for NY-23? You can only take money from registered voters in NY-23. Be beholden to the people you represent and no one else. Is that rational or should I commit myself right now?

What about businesses that have one branch there? Aren't they also affected by the tax policies and other policies that affect their employees in that district?

41 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:38:28am

re: #25 lawhawk

We've seen it on both sides of the aisle - if you're not fully beholden to the party, you're getting tossed. See Lieberman, Joe (I-CT).

He opposed the Democrat platform, particularly on the war on Iraq, and the leftists in the party forced him out. They're still on the prowl.

Forced him out? Lieberman lost the primary. Your stab at equivalence seems backwards.

42 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:38:53am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

re: #38 sattv4u2

I look at Owens' 'positive" positions, but before I do, tell me

Do all (or most) incluce increase and/or new gov't spendings?

DAMN ,, I need more coffee and/or new fingers. Lemme try that again

KILGORE
I'll look at Owens' "positive" positions, but before I do, tell me

Do all (or most) include increases and/ or new government programs and spending?

43 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:39:12am

re: #40 MandyManners

What about businesses that have one branch there? Aren't they also affected by the tax policies and other policies that affect their employees in that district?

Businesses don't vote.

44 simoom  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:39:35am

I was just poking around Doug Hoffman's campaign website, and listed in the endorsements section is 912candidates.org. I followed the link to that site and they maintain a list of all candidates who have signed a pledge on their "sacred honor" to uphold Glenn Beck's 9-12 Project 9 Principles and 12 Values when representing their constituents.

Apparently Doug Hoffman has signed their contract (with crazy).

45 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:39:55am

re: #42 sattv4u2

Look at them yourself.

46 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:40:22am

re: #43 JasonA

Businesses don't vote.

You just won the daily NAIVE award!

47 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:40:28am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Maybe the moderate R's will fight back just a little bit?

48 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:40:41am

re: #43 JasonA

Businesses don't vote.

Oh but corporations are people too, doncha' know...
/

49 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:40:41am

re: #44 simoom

Apparently Doug Hoffman has signed their contract (with crazy).


Batshit insanity.

50 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:40:50am

re: #43 JasonA

Businesses don't vote.

So? People who work for them and their shareholders are affected by such things as high taxes eating away at profits.

51 Merryweather  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:41:35am

re: #34 funky chicken

Three far-Left groups sponsor a debate, complete with ready-made far-Left crowd, and the Press Republican wonders why the conservative candidate doesn't walk into the trap?

Hoffman is proving he's no fool. Dede is proving she is the darling of the Left, just like the moderates and conservatives thought. Owens is just a Pelosi lapdog.


The Obama media heard from.

The wingnut mentality in a nutshell there -anything in the press that criticizes their candidate/does not completely agree with their viewpoint must be in the tank for Obama and the Dems. And any attempt to find out their candidates actual views is a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Is there enough aluminum in the world to keep these people stocked with tin foil hats?

52 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:41:52am

re: #47 prairiefire

Maybe the moderate R's will fight back just a little bit?

Moderates by nature aren't really fighters. Most of them will probably just quietly leave the party.

53 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:42:21am

re: #46 sattv4u2

You just won the daily NAIVE award!

Really? Show me where Exxon's on the voter rolls. I'd love to see that.

54 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:44:27am

GOP is starting to mean "God's Own Party"

Not good!


They need to be the third party now.

Blatant Ojoebot posts the Modern Whig Link once again:

The Modern Whigs.
And the Whig Video.


Thanks for putting up with this if you have seen it before.

Happy Sunday All.

55 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:44:27am

re: #53 JasonA

Really? Show me where Exxon's on the voter rolls. I'd love to see that.

83,700

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

sorry ,,, I didn't catch all their names

56 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:46:14am

re: #37 JasonA

That is very very rational and I would vote for a law saying that.

57 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:48:04am

re: #34 funky chicken

Read the comments to this editorial. You have the leftists screaming that they won't vote for Owens, the righties screaming about Dede, etc.

So I really do hope Owens wins.

[Link: www.pressrepublican.com...]

Those are some nice tin!foil hat comments.
They don't seem to understand that if you can't stand up to a hostile questioning (if it even would have been that) then you are a bit of a coward and do not seem to want to engage with the voters who disagree with you.
It makes Hoffman look like he was worried that he would not know enough about local issues to answer the questions without looking like and idiot.

58 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:49:05am

re: #55 sattv4u2

83,700

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

sorry ,,, I didn't catch all their names

I'm not sure what you're trying to show me. Those shareholders live somewhere and they vote for their own representation.

59 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:50:21am

The NY Conservative Party now has veto power over who runs as the R in NY-23 in 2010, win lose or draw unless someone takes the wind out of their sails. I suspect that they will shred them on their own between now and then. Meanwhile the SOCON PACs have spent big to prove the point that they are still meaningful, when they really are not in the longer run.
Their "base" is detiorating and dying with every presidential cycle. The numbers are that it's now less than 15 percent, and you can't win with that. Ask Luap Nor.

60 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:52:09am

re: #37 JasonA

re: #56 Ojoe

That is very very rational and I would vote for a law saying that.

On the surface, it sounds good, but when you think deeper, not so much

All that it would ensure is the most influential and connected would get monies. Lets say I wanted to run as a repub against Pelosi in her district. Her district has lots of millionaires that she owes favors too (from past elections support) and they all give to her. I have the little people giving to me. She raises MILLIONS, I raise $100K

BUT ,,, those little people in her district have freinds and relatives that want to donate to me. I could garner enough financial support from those peoples freinds and relatives outside the district to finance my campaign against Nancy P.

61 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:55:16am

Republicans;

"We've lost the House, the Senate, and the Presidency!"

Uh, OK. What now?

"Whatever the Democrats are for, we're against!"

Uh, they're for a lot of things, including equal rights and child protection, nutrition, health care, the environment...

Then we're against all that!


Are you sure? Have you asked Rove?


He's in the closet!

That shouldn't matter. I mean who he wants to spend time with is not our...

No! I mean he's literally holed up in the closet with a bottle of bourbon, and he says he's not coming out till Obama gets through, or all our collective I.Q.s equal or surpass the speed limit.

He's going to need more than one bottle...

62 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:56:47am

re: #50 MandyManners

So? People who work for them and their shareholders are affected by such things as high taxes eating away at profits.

Yes, they are. A shareholder living in NYC has his representative. That representative accepts his donation and that's that. A representative in Alaska also takes some of his money. Now he's influencing politics in a district in which he does not reside.

Answer this for me: why can't a shareholder living in Vancouver donate to that campaign?

63 Liberally Conservative  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:56:49am

re: #60 sattv4u2

re: #56 Ojoe

On the surface, it sounds good, but when you think deeper, not so much

All that it would ensure is the most influential and connected would get monies. Lets say I wanted to run as a repub against Pelosi in her district. Her district has lots of millionaires that she owes favors too (from past elections support) and they all give to her. I have the little people giving to me. She raises MILLIONS, I raise $100K

BUT ,,, those little people in her district have freinds and relatives that want to donate to me. I could garner enough financial support from those peoples freinds and relatives outside the district to finance my campaign against Nancy P.

You know, even if you had billions, i doubt you could win in urban SF as a typical republican.

64 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:58:10am
65 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:02:44am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

No surprise here...
US drops demand for Israeli settlement freeze

Fucking A.

66 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:04:45am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

It will not go like this in California. Texas maybe, I don't know about anywhere else. Us indys just might alter the game here.

67 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #51 Merryweather

I found it interesting that there were also a couple of commenters bitching that there were "3 republicans" in the race. It appears that Owens is the only centrist still running, so I hope he wins.

68 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:06:02am

re: #67 funky chicken

I found it interesting that there were also a couple of commenters bitching that there were "3 republicans" in the race. It appears that Owens is the only centrist still running, so I hope he wins.

What's his stance on the Second Amendment?

69 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:08:28am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Why not? Obama signaled a sterner approach to Israel and those deadly settlements.

70 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:08:31am

re: #56 Ojoe

That is very very rational and I would vote for a law saying that.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, though it seems no others agree. I did say it was a crazy fantasy, after all. Sometimes I take my idealism out for a walk and I have to clean up the poop. Que cera.

71 Ginsu  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:09:26am

Unfortunately the RNC has thrown their support behind Hoffman. I was hoping that they were going to fight this all the way and either support the Dem or urge their voters to write in for Dede. The only good that could come from this is when Hoffman is crushed at the polls maybe, maybe, the RNC will begin to see that giving in to the theocrats is only going to increase the amount of losses they see at the polls. Of course it's probably going to take a lot more losses for them to even get the gumption to say this out loud.

72 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:11:07am

re: #71 Ginsu

GOP = God's Own Party = Lose.

73 subsailor68  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:15:59am

re: #58 JasonA

I'm not sure what you're trying to show me. Those shareholders live somewhere and they vote for their own representation.

Hi JasonA! I do understand your point about businesses and representation - to an extent. However, if a business has a branch operation in a particular district, the policies and positions of candidates - and representatives - can have a huge impact on that business. Here's an example that may help:

My friend had a dry-cleaning business. His main plant, drop stores, and two laundromats were all located inside the town limits. However, his home (which he'd bought and lived in for years before starting the business) was located outside the city limits. As a result, he could vote in county elections, and for school board members, but not for city council or mayor - or on bond issues.

At first, this sounds reasonable. However, his business, his equipment, and his property were all taxed by the city. And, he had no representation, as he was ineligible to vote in the elections.

I suppose you could argue that he should have sold his home and moved into the city if he wanted to vote, or that he shouldn't have started his business in the town. But a reasonable person could just as easily conclude that, if someone has a business that provides revenue to the town, and is subject to the whims of the city government, they should also have a vote - the alternative being closing/relocating the business - which benefits neither the town, nor the business.

This is not to say that a "business" should have a vote. But a designate (an owner or designated representative in the case of a larger company) casting one vote to protect the interest of the business where taxation is a consideration - well that might not be an unreasonable idea.

74 Ginsu  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:16:12am

re: #72 Ojoe

Yup. Wonder how long the GOP will have to be on the outside looking in before they figure it out and grow the balls to do something about it.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:22:39am

re: #69 Rightwingconspirator

Bush made noise about settlements too. It's all part of the game.

76 HappyBenghazi  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:26:16am

Can't say I blame her. Hoffman's campaign and his supporters literally made her out to be a Communist.

77 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:29:03am

re: #73 subsailor68

But no one is arguing that he should have a vote. Not even the people disagreeing with me. This about campaign financing. The city in which your friend has his business has its residents, and they vote for their representatives who decide the policies and taxes of that city. My argument is against outside influences. If I worked for your friend's business and lived in that city I would have a vote. Should those representatives install policies bad enough to the point where he would have to lay people off or close the business then that's on me.

I remember back in last October or so Michelle Bachman said something crazy, almost McCarthyistic about finding out who in Congress hated America. There was a ton of activity on the left to give money to her opponent, El Tinklenberg. I live in NY and i remember thinking to myself... this isn't my fight. This is someone else's representation in Congress. Why should I have a say?

Bear in mind this little thought experiment of mine would also not allow for parties to give money to candidates. I would dearly love to see a system where representatives are not beholden to a platform that doesn't fully deal with their constituents needs.

Alas, they love their money a lot. No one in power would go for this anyway.

78 OneMonkeysUncle  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #70 JasonA

Well, just for the record, I think it's a wonderful idea. And for subsailor68's drycleaner, I say, move into the town that's donating all that revenue to you if you want a say in the comparatively minor amount you pay in taxes.

79 subsailor68  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:40:08am

re: #78 OneMonkeysUncle

Well, just for the record, I think it's a wonderful idea. And for subsailor68's drycleaner, I say, move into the town that's donating all that revenue to you if you want a say in the comparatively minor amount you pay in taxes.

That's certainly a valid point, I suppose - and I did note in my post that some folks may argue just that.

However, my friend also opened drop stores and laundromats in the next town over. (We live in the Texas Hill Country - and the towns here are about 22 miles apart.) It certainly wouldn't be practical to take your advice to move into both towns.

And believe me - city, county, and school taxes are not particularly minor amounts around here.

;-)

80 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:42:55am

re: #79 subsailor68

For what it's worth I live in Yonkers and own a store of my own a few miles away up in Scarsdale. I'm not completely numb to business-owners concerns.

81 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:47:11am

It's a pity that district seems so dependent to the federal government for support, though.

82 subsailor68  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:48:04am

re: #80 JasonA

For what it's worth I live in Yonkers and own a store of my own a few miles away up in Scarsdale. I'm not completely numb to business-owners concerns.

Yonkers is a very cool town - good on ya! I hope your business is doing well - and that you're weathering the economy right now! Yep, you're clearly not going to be unaware of what can impact your business.

83 subsailor68  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:49:00am

Okay folks, gotta run. Have a great day everyone!

84 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:50:22am

re: #82 subsailor68

Yonkers is a very cool town - good on ya! I hope your business is doing well - and that you're weathering the economy right now! Yep, you're clearly not going to be unaware of what can impact your business.

Hell, I was pissed when they raised the cost of the meters outside my store!

85 Skinless Frank  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:12:56am

I don't have a dog in this fight – I don't live in that district, and none of the candidates favors a smaller government that would stay out of my hair and my paycheck. If I could vote in this election, I probably wouldn't. I still have to say that if Scozzofava endorses the Democrat in this race, it demonstrates conclusively that she was about as much a Republican as she was a Martian. Her social policies were enough to scare off even the moderate conservatives, and she has nothing in her fiscal policies for the libertarians. What were they thinking at NYGOP headquarters?

Choosing an unelectable candidate is just a symptom of the bigger problem: the GOP, especially in the Northeast, has become a party about nothing. Maybe they could get Jerry Seinfeld to run.

86 lightspeed  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:56:22am

In my mind, the most important thing here is not to give Pelosi another vote in the House. In this case, that means Hoffman is the man. You not like him, but a vote for Owens is a vote for the far-left agenda of Obama, Pelosi, and Reid.

87 Quiddity  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:05:31pm

Now things are really getting interesting in NY-23. We need to know more about Scozzofava's actions to be sure.

88 JohninLondon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:07:44pm

85 Skinless Frank

It looks as if Dede has declared openly now for Owens.

I reckon this will clinch things in Hoffman's favour.

[Link: watertowndailytimes.com...]

89 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:38:39pm

re: #68 MandyManners

What's his stance on the Second Amendment?

dunno, but Dede was very pro-gun rights, and that wasn't enough to stop the Malkinite/RSMcCain contingent from calling her a radical leftist.

Owens is former military, and upstate NY is pretty rural, so I wouldn't expect him to be a hysterical gun-grabber, but I could be wrong.

90 ghazidor  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:52:03pm

re: #88 JohninLondon

85 Skinless Frank

It looks as if Dede has declared openly now for Owens.

I reckon this will clinch things in Hoffman's favour.

[Link: watertowndailytimes.com...]

And how would that work?: "Well I'm a Republican but I was going to vote for that Democrat Owens just...err...because. But then Dede said that I should vote for him and that pissed me off so much that now I'm going to vote for Hoffman!"

Honestly WTF are you talking about?

91 jvic  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #88 JohninLondon

85 Skinless Frank

It looks as if Dede has declared openly now for Owens.

I reckon this will clinch things in Hoffman's favour.

[Link: watertowndailytimes.com...]

A day or two ago the betting odds at Intrade.com gave Hoffman a 70% chance to win. Today the race is 50-50.

That's hardly conclusive of course, but I pay disproportionate attention to people who back up their opinions with their own money.

92 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:48:10pm

re: #25 lawhawk

big difference Lieberman was challenged and lost using his own parties rules. he threw his toys out of the pram and ran against the candidate his party chose. he was a sore loser. the democrat would still have won.

Lamont was not a moonbat nut job - some of his fans were - but he was not rabid.

93 Kruk  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:43:43pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Probably. It's also alarming that they're losing rural voters. The GOP gave up long ago on urban areas. They started weakening in the suburbs over the past decade. Now they're losing rural areas. There's nowhere else to go.


I would class myself as a moderate (probably leaning left on social issues, right on security) and I'm scared by this. *Any* democracy needs a strong opposition that can not hold the party in power to account, but is also a credible government-in-waiting if the voters opt for a change. Prolonged one party rule is unhealthy for any country, but especially for a country like the United States that has few if any peers to act as an external moderating force.

94 wun wabbit wun  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:17:35pm

We recently moved to the Watertown area (shore of Lake Ontario) from Georgia. We did not think our vote would matter once we registered in the 23rd District. When this election process started we were dismayed to learn the Rep Candidate was a Democrat. The Democrat Candidate was a ...Democrat. We are not knuckle draggers. We do think Obama and those who have the majority in Washington are pushing us into an abyss. Our grandkids won't know the real America. Is Hoffman perfect? Probably not, but at least he won't go to Washington and fall into lock-step with the others who are leading us astray. If you talk to the every-day kind of person here in 23rd most of them have the same general opinion. Plus they are sick of being denigrated for having an opinion unlike the so called political experts.

95 wun wabbit wun  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:23:55pm

Oh - one more thing. DEDE has had many years in the state government to do what REALLY needs to be done here in Northern New York. The state taxes are so high that any business man with a full deck is NOT going to set up in this state. New York, like California is very business un-friendly, taxing taxing taxing taxing. Ft. Drum will get funding no matter who is elected ...but the JOBS issues here are all about TAXES.

96 jbolty  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:31:49pm

re: #86 lightspeed

In my mind, the most important thing here is not to give Pelosi another vote in the House. In this case, that means Hoffman is the man. You not like him, but a vote for Owens is a vote for the far-left agenda of Obama, Pelosi, and Reid.

truth.

the republican party is not in the woods because of being too conservative. They have been losing while trying to be pretend democrats. If you want a party that is weak on defense, in favor of big government, open borders with amnesty, spends like no tomorrow and never saw a trial lawyer union or tax hike they don't like then there is already the democrats. Trying to out spend that crowd will never happen; the gop base won't trust you (see John McCain) and why would the left for for you when they can go Dem and get the real thing?

I know little of Hoffman but as said, denying a vote to Pelosi is worth whatever else he brings with him. It's not like one house member is going to suddenly institute a theocracy by fiat.

As soon as the GOP can get someone, anyone, to lead with a message of "we are the party of adults with adult responsibilites" they will win.

97 3kids3dogs  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:45:38pm

re: #94 wun wabbit wun

What on earth do you mean by "the real America"? This country has changed over time and it has almost always been for the better. Was America in 1900 not "the real America" because it was different than America in 1800? Those wonderful idealized 1950's were radically different than the 1850's. Which one was "the real America"?

98 wun wabbit wun  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:15:17am

Re: #97

99 wun wabbit wun  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:17:18am

RE: #97

By the "real America" I mean all of us outside of Washington, DC, New York City, and El Lay. I don't mean going back to the 50's...

100 3kids3dogs  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:08:54am

re: #99 wun wabbit wun

RE: #97

By the "real America" I mean all of us outside of Washington, DC, New York City, and El Lay. I don't mean going back to the 50's...


So those millions of Americans that live in those metropolitan areas aren't really American? And even if that was the case, is someone going to force your grandchildren to move to one of those places? If not, how is it that they won't know the "real America"?


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