Doug Hoffman: The Glenn Beck Candidate

What exactly does Doug Hoffman stand for? And who is he standing with? Would you believe … Glenn Beck?

At the endorsements page of Doug Hoffman For Congress, we find a link to the “Gold List” at 912candidates.org, consisting of politicians who have “pledged their sacred honor” to uphold the Glenn Beck 9/12 Project’s “9 Principles and 12 Values.”

(Hat tip: simoom.)

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401 comments
1 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:05:24am

Is shedding theatrical tears a Principle or a Value?

2 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:08:33am

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.

5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

3 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:11:13am

re: #2 Charles

Can Beck supporters keep two statements in their minds at the same time and analyze them? I say thee nay. Beck has perfected that art of “truthiness.”

4 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:11:27am

re: #2 Charles

Point 7 appears to be a disguised statement in support of tax revolt.

5 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:11:31am

From the 9/12 page:

“Thank You to Mr. Glenn Beck for articulating the values America might have otherwise forgotten.”

I mean really, Thank GOD for Glenn Beck, without his tears and list America would have forgotten theses things.
No wonder we voted for President Obama…
/

6 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:12:24am

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

Stop using logic, it hurts Glenn and makes him cry.

7 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:13:44am

That’s the worst layout I’ve seen outside of Gellar’s.

8 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:13:50am

re: #6 webevintage

That and Vicks.

9 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:14:40am

re: #6 webevintage

Stop using logic, it hurts Glenn and makes him cry.

Invest in Vicks mentholatum rub.

10 Gus  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:15:26am

After reading number two on this 912 list and seeing that the GOP is easily being drawn towards this I think the GOP has their acronym backwards. Instead of the GOP it should be changed to POG — as in Party of God.

11 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:15:29am

I hope all the buttons in the “In Office” column stay white after Tuesday.

12 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #9 MandyManners

Invest in Vicks mentholatum rub.

And the makers of Xanax.
:)

13 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:17:15am

It’s just insane to think that politicians are now pledging allegiance to TV show hosts.

14 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:17:34am

Wait. Value number 8 is moderation. I call shenanigans.

15 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:18:08am

I wonder what they say to someone who agrees with them on all the issues but just doesn’t happen to believe in God. And as for number 3, the honesty part is a joke considering all this fear-mongering about Obama and how he’s a dictator.

16 Merryweather  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:18:11am

And they accuse Barack Obama of creating a cult of personality. Glenn Beck is basically the L. Ron. Hubbard of politics.

“I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. The government cannot force me to be charitable.”


Shorter 7th Value: “I won’t do it and you can’t make me!” Glenn Beck everyone: the boy who never grew up.

17 Stan the Demanded Plan  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:19:14am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

It’s just insane to think that politicians are now pledging allegiance to TV show hosts.

Incredible.

18 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:20:59am

re: #14 JasonA

Wait. Value number 8 is moderation. I call shenanigans.

I think that means the holder of Value #8 is against other people overindulging themselves in something they might enjoy too much.

19 Ginsu  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:21:19am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

So this is what the end of a national political party looks like.

20 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:21:28am

Number 7 sounds like just an excuse not to pay their taxes on things they don’t want their taxes spent on. Newsflash, we all have our taxes spent on things we don’t want them spent on.

21 blueherron  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:21:49am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

It’s just insane to think that politicians are now pledging allegiance to TV show hosts.

Hoffman was on Glenn Beck (TV), early in the week. He appeared star-struck. I was embarassed by the conversation.

22 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:22:33am

Forty five out of how many GOP politicians in the nation?

23 Linden Arden  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:23:38am

Does Doug Hoffman believe (like Beck opined last week on his show) that Net Neutrality is an Obama plan to take control of the Internet and censor free speech?


(I’m still laughing at Crazy Beck Town for that one).

24 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.

5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

I suppose #4 may refer to what an individual may deem what is right, or moral, in whatever sense that may entail.

#5 implies what is legal.

25 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:25:36am

re: #19 Ginsu

So this is what the end of a national political party looks like.

Not yet. If we start to see political violence or domestic terrorism from these folks them that will be the end. I seriously doubt the Republican party can successfully distance themselves from the nuts. At the very least they’re going to have to change their name and reform with cosmetic changes.

26 simoom  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:25:46am

I’d love to get my hands on some of the questionnaires Hoffman had to fill out for some of his PAC endorsements.

For example Government Is Not God PACdoes not support any candidates who do not return a questionnaire that affirms that they are pro-life, pro-family and stand firmly against the unbiblical welfare state that is destroying the spiritual and economic greatness of our nation.

Here’s the PDF of their questionnaire:
[Link: www.gingpac.org…]

Some samples of the questions asked:

2. Do you believe that an unborn child is a person under the 14th amendment?

4. Would you vote to prohibit abortion in all cases?

12. Do you oppose laws allowing homosexuals to adopt children?

13. Do you favor laws that restrict the production, sale, and distribution of pornography?

14. A. Do you believe clergymen should have the right to express views from the pulpit on legislative issues?

15. B. Do you believe clergy should have the right to support or disapprove of candidates for political offices from the pulpit?

16. Do you support the right of students and teachers to publicly acknowledge the Creator?

17. Do you support full freedom of speech in public schools including “religious” speech?

18. Should federal involvement in public education be eliminated, including eliminating the U.S. Department of Education?

35B In reference to question 35A, Intel Corporation supports “equal rights for gays” and offers benefits to “partners” of homosexual employees. Would you refuse funds from this corporate PAC?

Anything he sent to Phyllis Schlafly’s Eagle Forum would also be interesting.

27 Gus  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:25:53am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

It’s just insane to think that politicians are now pledging allegiance to TV show hosts.

Was looking at the about-us webpage of this 912-Candidate site and surprise, surprise! The guy that runs it links to Atlas Shrugs and Jihad Watch.

28 Merryweather  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:26:53am

re: #27 Gus 802

Kooks of a feather…

29 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:27:07am
30 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:27:19am

The worst of it is the mix or what should be personal belief and government. Not any particular line the overall message.

When you look close, its a fortune cookie. I sense a rip off of a certain other goals of conduct from Asian Culture. They distilled the principles of behavior to just a few words. I offer these in contrast, as they are intended as personal guides.
Not for politics.
Not for wearing on your sleeve.
Honesty
Sincerity
Humility
Benevolence
Filial Piety. (Respect for parents)

I personally find it amusing that it takes a vast law library to bring these few words into society via the law. No one should be ripping these off for politics. This is for the heart not the voting booth.

31 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:27:55am

No moderation, no return to power.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

32 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:28:38am

They say that the family is the ultimate decision making body and not the government but why are these people often than not strong supporters of things like banning gay marriage, abortion, gambling, etc.

33 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:28:48am

re: #16 Merryweather

Glenn Beck is basically the L. Ron. Hubbard of politics.

I grok it.

34 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:29:12am

re: #30 Rightwingconspirator

No one should be ripping these off for politics. This is for the heart not the voting booth.


1,000 updings for that.

35 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:31:26am

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

These loons should break away and rename themselves the “Party of God”, or perhaps “Hezbollah 2.0” for short.

36 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:32:35am

Well I don’t see anyth… wait, this guy is running in NY?

37 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:32:49am

re: #35 Jimmah

These loons should break away and rename themselves the “Party of God”, or perhaps “Hezbollah 2.0” for short.

Ouch. Nicely done!
:)

38 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:32:50am

re: #34 Ojoe

Why Thank You Ojoe!

39 Ginsu  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:33:00am

re: #32 HappyWarrior

It’s really a weird mix of conservative political values, such as limited government and not making taxation a wealth redistribution scheme, mixed in with socon values which are decidedly intrusive and the opposite of limited government. A recipe for political irrelevance.

40 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:35:04am

re: #36 brookly red

Well I don’t see anyth… wait, this guy is running in NY?

Well, it’s the far north of NY. Far far away from the city. I’d be really surprised if he won, but I can’t say it’s impossible.

41 Alexzander  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:35:51am

re: #35 Jimmah

These loons should break away and rename themselves the “Party of God”, or perhaps “Hezbollah 2.0” for short.



Is that ideal for a future GOP? I am asking in earnest. Can the GOP maintain a competitive percentage of US support without this segment? What does sort of party do you ideally imagine the GOP being in five or ten years?


I still sit left of the the progressive sides of the GOP so it is not really my concern but I have to wonder how others see things shaping in an ideal world.

42 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:35:55am

re: #38 Rightwingconspirator

You are welcome.

43 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:36:21am

re: #2 Charles

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.

Does this candidate believe that G-d is not the ultimate authority? If someone wrote a book about the right-wing, they could call it G-dless.

44 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:36:29am

re: #39 Ginsu

It’s really a weird mix of conservative political values, such as limited government and not making taxation a wealth redistribution scheme, mixed in with socon values which are decidedly intrusive and the opposite of limited government. A recipe for political irrelevance.

I guess someone wasn’t paying attention to Goldwater.

45 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:37:35am

BBL

46 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:37:47am

re: #40 JasonA

Well, it’s the far north of NY. Far far away from the city. I’d be really surprised if he won, but I can’t say it’s impossible.

not far enough, anything in the polls?

47 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:38:57am

re: #46 brookly red

not far enough, anything in the polls?

I don’t think there’s been anything since Dede dropped out so it’s hard to gauge right now.

48 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:39:31am

re: #43 Stuart Leviton

Does this candidate believe that G-d is not the ultimate authority? If someone wrote a book about the right-wing, they could call it G-dless.

I wanted to think that means in regards to “family matters”, but now I am not so sure…

49 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:39:49am

re: #44 HappyWarrior

I guess someone wasn’t paying attention to Goldwater.

They paid attention to Goldwater alright…they’re the “preachers” he warned about in 1994.

50 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:41:25am

re: #35 Jimmah

These loons should break away and rename themselves the “Party of God”, or perhaps “Hezbollah 2.0” for short.


Gus, you’re quite a decent person. I was curious to see how you handle honoring creativity. Thanks for demonstrating virtue.

51 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:42:30am
52 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:42:58am

re: #47 JasonA

I don’t think there’s been anything since Dede dropped out so it’s hard to gauge right now.

and Dede pledged support, no? (or am I thinking of another race?)

53 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:44:09am

re: #52 brookly red

Check out the last post ;)

54 Gus  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:44:39am

re: #50 Stuart Leviton

Gus, you’re quite a decent person. I was curious to see how you handle honoring creativity. Thanks for demonstrating virtue.

Do you mean Jimmah?

55 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:45:40am

re: #41 Alexzander

Is that ideal for a future GOP? I am asking in earnest. Can the GOP maintain a competitive percentage of US support without this segment? What does sort of party do you ideally imagine the GOP being in five or ten years?


I still sit left of the the progressive sides of the GOP so it is not really my concern but I have to wonder how others see things shaping in an ideal world.

Nor mine - however I will say that this seems to me to be a similar question to one that the Labour Party here in the UK had to ask itself following Thatcher’s landslide election win in 1979. Initially, their reaction was to appease the extreme left wing ‘core’. They made Michal Foot their leader, and embraced a whole raft of fringy positions, ignoring all advice about the changing nature and attitudes of the electorate. They spent the next 18 years in the political wilderness. It was not until Tony Blair modernised and reformed the party and brought it to a much more electable, centrist position that they returned to power. I imagine the GOP is going to have to go through a similar process, and as with the UK labour party, it may take a long time to come back from where they are at the moment.

56 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:46:20am

/I think I will pick up the laundry now… it’s still too early to start drinking.

this is sooo disturbing.

57 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:47:43am

re: #56 brookly red

/I think I will pick up the laundry now… it’s still too early to start drinking.

this is sooo disturbing.

Forty five out of how many candidates across the nation?

58 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #55 Jimmah

I think you hit this on the head. It may not take as long as we fear. Politics has accelerated with 24/7 coverage.

59 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:50:45am

re: #55 Jimmah

Nor mine - however I will say that this seems to me to be a similar question to one that the Labour Party here in the UK had to ask itself following Thatcher’s landslide election win in 1979. Initially, their reaction was to appease the extreme left wing ‘core’. They made Michal Foot their leader, and embraced a whole raft of fringy positions, ignoring all advice about the changing nature and attitudes of the electorate. They spent the next 18 years in the political wilderness. It was not until Tony Blair modernised and reformed the party and brought it to a much more electable, centrist position that they returned to power. I imagine the GOP is going to have to go through a similar process, and as with the UK labour party, it may take a long time to come back from where they are at the moment.

We might want to compare their position with that of the Tory Party, which was run out of power by Blair’s new Labour twelve years ago and is still blundering around in the wilderness, looking for direction and unable to come up with any major political successes even against a Labour Party that is losing popularity…

60 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:51:20am

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

Charles - please stop trying to inject reason into a sloganeering campaign. The two just don’t go together.

61 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:53:24am

re: #60 SixDegrees

Charles - please stop trying to inject reason into a sloganeering campaign. The two just don’t go together.

These are no conflict to a Dominionist, one who believes that God’s Law has precedence over the Constitution. And that is behind what is being implied here.

62 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:55:58am

Question for any candidate who signs on to this-Will you pledge to support the separation of church and state?

63 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:56:45am

My candidate for the Darwin Award: GOP.

64 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #55 Jimmah

Nor mine - however I will say that this seems to me to be a similar question to one that the Labour Party here in the UK had to ask itself following Thatcher’s landslide election win in 1979. Initially, their reaction was to appease the extreme left wing ‘core’. They made Michal Foot their leader, and embraced a whole raft of fringy positions, ignoring all advice about the changing nature and attitudes of the electorate. They spent the next 18 years in the political wilderness. It was not until Tony Blair modernised and reformed the party and brought it to a much more electable, centrist position that they returned to power. I imagine the GOP is going to have to go through a similar process, and as with the UK labour party, it may take a long time to come back from where they are at the moment.

Curious but on what issues did the Labour party change on that made them more acceptable to the public. To me from the outside looking in on the GOP, it looks like their problems are on issues like gays, abortion, and immigration though in the latter there were some steps in the recent President Bush’s years to be more open minded on that but now they sound closer to Tancredo than they do Bush on immigration.

65 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:57:12am

re: #62 Rightwingconspirator

Question for any candidate who signs on to this-Will you pledge to support the separation of church and state?

I think more than a few would ask what kind of gosh-darn Commie question is that.

66 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #63 enoughalready

My candidate for the Darwin Award: GOP.


Irony!
/Heh.

67 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:58:34am

re: #65 MandyManners

Thomas Jefferson was a commie? Who knew?
/

68 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #59 ralphieboy

We might want to compare their position with that of the Tory Party, which was run out of power by Blair’s new Labour twelve years ago and is still blundering around in the wilderness, looking for direction and unable to come up with any major political successes even against a Labour Party that is losing popularity…

We could do and I’m sure there are lessons to be taken from that as well. However, the Tories have not embraced a set of extremist positions since their defeat; they have merely been ineffective and lacking decent leadership. It is widely predicted that they will probably win the next election though.

69 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:59:07am

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

Just to be ornery, I tried to figure out a way to explain these statements to show that they are not in conflict.

I couldn’t do it.

Actually, #4:

4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.

just makes no sense whatsoever. It’s not even really a complete thought. He and his spouse are the ultimate authority under what circumstances? All? Family issues (as seems to be implied by the “the family is sacred” part). What? It’s just a sound-good sound-bite that doesn’t even really mean anything.

70 Alexzander  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 10:59:59am

re: #55 Jimmah

Nor mine - however I will say that this seems to me to be a similar question to one that the Labour Party here in the UK had to ask itself following Thatcher’s landslide election win in 1979. Initially, their reaction was to appease the extreme left wing ‘core’. They made Michal Foot their leader, and embraced a whole raft of fringy positions, ignoring all advice about the changing nature and attitudes of the electorate. They spent the next 18 years in the political wilderness. It was not until Tony Blair modernised and reformed the party and brought it to a much more electable, centrist position that they returned to power. I imagine the GOP is going to have to go through a similar process, and as with the UK labour party, it may take a long time to come back from where they are at the moment.



Thanks for the answer and an interesting analogy - I should know more about this given that I was born in the UK under Thatcher.

71 sandbox  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:00:19am

Perhaps I am a minority opinion here. I consider myself a moderate Republican, but I too considered Dede S. selection to run as the R candidate awful because she was in favor of card check and had accepted support in the past from the working people’s party (which is the Acorn outfit). If I lived in the district, I would vote for Hoffman, even though he is a social conservative, which I am not.

72 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:00:50am

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Irony!
/Heh.

To quote F. Murray Abraham in the rather crappy “An Innocent Man”:

“Ain’t life a motherf—-er”

73 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

Ruby Ridge. That’s what it winds up becoming.

74 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:02:02am

re: #19 Ginsu

So this is what the end of a national political party looks like.

For what it’s worth, Hoffman is a Conservative Party candidate. The GOP has already lost with Soccofava’s withdrawal - there is no GOP candidate in the race anymore.

That the GOP seems to be lending Hoffman their support is disturbing in the extreme, but it’s important to note that, for the moment anyway, he’s not running as a Republican, and even if he wins the GOP will wind up losing one more member of their House minority.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:02:23am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

I’m pretty sure it’s tied into some offshoot of Mormon theology. It probably makes sense once traced back to original scripture.

76 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:03:30am

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Ruby Ridge. That’s what it winds up becoming.

You are unfortunately correct sir.

77 Stan the Demanded Plan  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Ruby Ridge. That’s what it winds up becoming.

I was thinking more public education. The parents get to decide what’s taught in the schools - not the govt.

78 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:03:44am

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure it’s tied into some offshoot of Mormon theology. It probably makes sense once traced back to original scripture.

The ‘the family is sacred” part was the only part that made any sense to me.
The rest of it just wasn’t connected to anything else.

79 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:03:49am

re: #70 Alexzander

I was born in the UK under Thatcher.


I was going to make an awful joke here, but even the limited self-respect I have will not allow it.

80 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:03:53am

re: #64 HappyWarrior

Curious but on what issues did the Labour party change on that made them more acceptable to the public. To me from the outside looking in on the GOP, it looks like their problems are on issues like gays, abortion, and immigration though in the latter there were some steps in the recent President Bush’s years to be more open minded on that but now they sound closer to Tancredo than they do Bush on immigration.

They moved away from supporting unilateral nuclear disarmament, opposing trade union reform, opposition to any welfare reform, failed economic policies etc.

81 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #61 ralphieboy

These are no conflict to a Dominionist, one who believes that God’s Law has precedence over the Constitution. And that is behind what is being implied here.

Actually, the two statements listed in #2 are completely incompatible with one another.

Did I really need to add a sarcasm tag to my post?

82 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:04:59am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

I *think* No. 4 refers to sex education, birth control and abortion for minor girls.

83 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:05:34am

re: #73 Rightwingconspirator

Ruby Ridge. That’s what it winds up becoming.

For those who signed up, forty five candidates.

84 fizzlogic  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:06:03am

re: #69 reine.de.tout

just makes no sense whatsoever. It’s not even really a complete thought. He and his spouse are the ultimate authority under what circumstances? All? Family issues (as seems to be implied by the “the family is sacred” part). What? It’s just a sound-good sound-bite that doesn’t even really mean anything.

You need to read it as dog whistles.

85 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:06:49am

re: #77 Stanley Sea

I was thinking more public education. The parents get to decide what’s taught in the schools - not the govt.

Isn’t that why people elect representatives to their local school boards?

86 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #80 Jimmah

They moved away from supporting unilateral nuclear disarmament, opposing trade union reform, opposition to any welfare reform, failed economic policies etc.

Thanks. I remember seeing in the Ben Wattenberg documentary on the history of Socialism that prices were really high in the 70’s in the UK and that many wanted the unions reformed but labor would not budge on that issue. I think the problem with today’s GOP is they’re not building a party for tomorrow and are instead sticking with the same things that won them votes in the 80’s or even 90’s for that matter. The electorate is changing like it was in Britain.

87 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #82 MandyManners

I *think* No. 4 refers to sex education, birth control and abortion for minor girls.

Ah.
But no one forces families to participate in sex education, birth control or abortion.

88 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:07:34am

re: #77 Stanley Sea

The first gets you the second. First they get evolution against their wishes. Then they choose to take a stand… For the record I’m a huge critic of the way the government handled Ruby Ridge. That fact only enhances my revulsion for acts that would precipitate such an action again. Slippery slope with minefield added.
[Link: www.seattlepi.com…]
[Link: www.encyclopedia.com…]

89 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:08:21am

re: #77 Stanley Sea

I was thinking more public education. The parents get to decide what’s taught in the schools - not the govt.

Aren’t schools governed by local elected school boards?

90 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:09:34am

re: #89 reine.de.tout

Hence the fight in Texas read about so much.

91 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:10:30am

re: #87 reine.de.tout

Ah.
But no one forces families to participate in sex education, birth control or abortion.

Yep, I remember vividly that you had the option of opting out of sex education if your parents objected. And as we know you have a choice not to get an abortion or use birth control.

92 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:10:35am

re: #87 reine.de.tout

Ah.
But no one forces families to participate in sex education, birth control or abortion.

Can kids in some districts get it from the school nurse?

93 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:11:06am

re: #92 MandyManners

Can kids in some districts get it from the school nurse?

Birth control pills, that is.

94 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:11:20am

re: #89 reine.de.tout

Aren’t schools governed by local elected school boards?

Now they are. I think it’s important to look at this declaration as a letter of intent, a declaration of guiding principles that will form the basis of any political standpoint. If you believe in the cra^H^H^Hthings lined out in that document then a substantial change would be in order when it comes to how schools are governed.

95 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:12:00am

Beck: a fry short of a happy meal.
Those principles, however…while not everyone may agree with every one of them, are not in themselves evil or a problem for the United States.
Reasonable people may of course, disagree.
As for the controversial number four, it’s apparent to me that he means minor children are subject to the mores and tenets of their parents**, rather than the ones they may be exposed to in school that may conflict with what they are taught at home. This does not mean that parents are not subject to civil law.
** as long as this does not conflict with the civil law. For example, just because some whackjob parents believe that children can be beaten until black and blue does not mean that the state does not have the ability to prosecute them for child abuse.

96 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:12:12am

re: #92 MandyManners

Can kids in some districts get it from the school nurse?

I don’t know, Mandy.
My daughter goes to a Catholic school; so I honestly don’t know what the public schools do.

97 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:13:19am

re: #93 MandyManners

Birth control pills, that is.

and condoms.
I think some schools do, but once again like sex ed, you can probably opt your kid out of being allowed to get BC so that instead of a teen having protected sex you can have one that ends up pregnant or with an STD or even AIDS.

98 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:13:32am

re: #96 reine.de.tout

I don’t know, Mandy.
My daughter goes to a Catholic school; so I honestly don’t know what the public schools do.

I don’t, either but, I don’t see public schools in this area giving them out.

99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:13:32am

He lists “Humility” among his twelve values.

It’s the greatest effing thing about me. My humility is fantastic!

100 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #92 MandyManners

Can kids in some districts get it from the school nurse?

Well NYC has it’s own brand of condoms (I kid you not) any they are distributed free by many bussiness… so who knows what you can get in school.

101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:14:20am

Anybody hear Rush this morning on Fox? Has it already been discussed?

102 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:14:38am

re: #87 reine.de.tout

Actually some do. My boss has a daughter in school. The parent could request she not participate in certain lessons. UNLESS she wanted to against her parents wishes. This at 14 years old. Beverly Hills School District.

103 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:15:06am

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody hear Rush this morning on Fox? Has it already been discussed?

I hear it was very fair and balanced…
///

104 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:15:36am

re: #92 MandyManners

There are some public schools, I believe, that are set up with complete clinics dispensing birth control and I am not sure that parents have any rights when it comes to notification. There are also schools with day care centers, which would seem to question the effectiveness of the birth control dispensing. ///

105 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:15:56am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He lists “Humility” among his twelve values.

It’s the greatest effing thing about me. My humility is fantastic!

Whew! For a soggy moment there, I thought you typed “humidity”.

106 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:16:04am

re: #95 tradewind


As for the controversial number four, it’s apparent to me that he means minor children are subject to the mores and tenets of their parents**, rather than the ones they may be exposed to in school that may conflict with what they are taught at home. This does not mean that parents are not subject to civil law.
** as long as this does not conflict with the civil law. For example, just because some whackjob parents believe that children can be beaten until black and blue does not mean that the state does not have the ability to prosecute them for child abuse. . .

Why does he have that as one of his priniciple? Has anyone said that children should NOT be subject to the influence of their parents?

Kids, heck, people, all of us, are exposed every day to things that conflict with our personal beliefs. Parents need to make sure they teach, including teaching by example, the values they want their children to hold.

107 HappyWarrior  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:19:07am

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody hear Rush this morning on Fox? Has it already been discussed?

Didn’t see it but read about it. Limbaugh calling anyone a narcissist is hilarious. What was it that Rush called himself in the 90’s? Something about God’s voice?

108 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:19:13am

re: #106 reine.de.tout

Has anyone said that children should NOT be subject to the influence of their parents?


Oh hell yes. Haven’t you read ’ It Takes a Village’ ?
Seriously, yes. There are those who believe that children can only thrive when removed from the toxic influence of their parents. I’d have to google some quotes. Lots of marxist stuff, which I know always raises big red flags.

109 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:19:17am

re: #86 HappyWarrior

Thanks. I remember seeing in the Ben Wattenberg documentary on the history of Socialism that prices were really high in the 70’s in the UK and that many wanted the unions reformed but labor would not budge on that issue. I think the problem with today’s GOP is they’re not building a party for tomorrow and are instead sticking with the same things that won them votes in the 80’s or even 90’s for that matter. The electorate is changing like it was in Britain.

Yep. They times they are a changin’ - and they ain’t changin’ back. (would have posted Bob Dylan here but youtube appears to be down)

BBL

110 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:19:21am

Not eactly a contract for America. More like an anti-Obama temper tantrum.

111 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:21:09am

re: #110 swamprat

Not eactly a contract for America. More like an anti-Obama temper tantrum.

couldn’t just take the contract for America back out & dust it off, huh?

112 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:21:17am

re: #110 swamprat
I have a feeling Obama wouldn’t like it if someone equated those principles to everything he stands against.///

113 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:21:20am

re: #109 Jimmah
Yeah, and cue up the dixie chicks’ “gone”.

114 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:22:05am

re: #108 tradewind

Oh hell yes. Haven’t you read ’ It Takes a Village’ ?
Seriously, yes. There are those who believe that children can only thrive when removed from the toxic influence of their parents. I’d have to google some quotes. Lots of marxist stuff, which I know always raises big red flags.

Hm. Yes, I guess there are those who believe that.
re: #102 Rightwingconspirator

Actually some do. My boss has a daughter in school. The parent could request she not participate in certain lessons. UNLESS she wanted to against her parents wishes. This at 14 years old. Beverly Hills School District.

While I think it’s stupid for a parent to opt their kid out of certain classes (my guess is it’s those classes dealing with sex education), that simply isn’t right.

115 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:22:19am

re: #108 tradewind

Oh hell yes. Haven’t you read ’ It Takes a Village’ ?
Seriously, yes. There are those who believe that children can only thrive when removed from the toxic influence of their parents. I’d have to google some quotes. Lots of marxist stuff, which I know always raises big red flags.

Well, I can point to one or two examples where kids would be a lot better off if they were removed from their parents.

116 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #115 enoughalready

Well, I can point to one or two examples where kids would be a lot better off if they were removed from their parents.

We all probably could think of one or two examples.

Are you suggesting that, in order to avoid having one child’s mind poisoned by his parents, there should be a general policy ensuring that children are removed from their parents’ influence?

117 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:25:38am

re: #112 tradewind

The Republicans ship has not run aground. They have lost sight of their principles and the shore, and are doubling speed to make up time. They are at sea.

118 rhino2  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:26:01am

re: #115 enoughalready

Well, I can point to one or two examples where kids would be a lot better off if they were removed from their parents.

There will always be cases where this is true, but I don’t think you can use that as a case against all parenting in general.

119 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:26:06am

re: #43 Stuart Leviton

Does this candidate believe that G-d is not the ultimate authority? If someone wrote a book about the right-wing, they could call it G-dless.

It’s really a bit warped with fundamentalists in politics. They think God is the ultimate authority, and yet only they fully understand God’s Will, therefore their way of doing things is the Godly way and the rest of us are Godless, even though they are the ones falsely use God to establish their authority.

120 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:26:29am

re: #114 reine.de.tout

While I think it’s stupid for a parent to opt their kid out of certain classes (my guess is it’s those classes dealing with sex education), that simply isn’t right.

Indeed.
Teens have a right to the knowledge that helps them protect themselves.
Some will use that knowledge and some will not.

If just saying “don’t have sex” worked then there would never be pregnant teens who have been raised fundamentalist evangelicals who go to private schools instead of public schools.

121 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:27:09am

re: #77 Stanley Sea

I was thinking more public education. The parents get to decide what’s taught in the schools - not the govt.

Uh - not to be a nudge, but statements like this were commonplace on the left during Bush’s term, and they bother the shit out of me now just as much as they did then. They treat “the government” as some sort of separate, adversarial entity opposed to the interests of the public.

In fact, in the United States more than anywhere else, the parents are the government, and vice-versa.

122 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:28:16am

Bite my shiny metal ass, wannabe theocrats.

123 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:29:00am

re: #121 SixDegrees

Uh - not to be a nudge noodge, but statements like this were commonplace on the left during Bush’s term, and they bother the shit out of me now just as much as they did then. They treat “the government” as some sort of separate, adversarial entity opposed to the interests of the public.

In fact, in the United States more than anywhere else, the parents are the government, and vice-versa.

124 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:29:17am

re: #122 Ojoe

go Bender!

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:29:26am

re: #122 Ojoe

Calm down, Bender…

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #43 Stuart Leviton

Does this candidate believe that G-d is not the ultimate authority? If someone wrote a book about the right-wing, they could call it G-dless.

The problem is that this isn’t actually a code of conduct, it’s a series of coded expressions that all refer to different things.

127 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:30:44am

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that this isn’t actually a code of conduct, it’s a series of coded expressions that all refer to different things.

a coded code? deep.

128 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:31:12am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He lists “Humility” among his twelve values.

It’s the greatest effing thing about me. My humility is fantastic!

I’M MORE HUMBLE THAN YOU!

129 Stan the Demanded Plan  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:31:33am

re: #121 SixDegrees

Uh - not to be a nudge, but statements like this were commonplace on the left during Bush’s term, and they bother the shit out of me now just as much as they did then. They treat “the government” as some sort of separate, adversarial entity opposed to the interests of the public.

In fact, in the United States more than anywhere else, the parents are the government, and vice-versa.

Couple of responses to my statement, so to clarify…in my elementary way I was saying that that’s what I THINK the Beck is trying to state “I’m the parent, I’m in control, not the government or the school”.

Regardless that the school is run by the ed board etc. etc. I’m just trying to interpret a vague phrase. Who knows, he may elaborate in one of his books, but I’m not going there.

130 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:31:42am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Calm down, Bender…

“Kill all humans. Destroy all humans.. Ha ha…
Oh was I sleeping? I had the greatest dream!”

131 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:32:10am

re: #115 enoughalready
Really?
Wow. Bet I can come up with three or four.
/Goes without saying/

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:32:38am

re: #67 abolitionist

Thomas Jefferson was a commie? Who knew?
/

Toby Keith warned us:

Separate church and state, that’s what some liberal said
I say it’s time we separated him from his head
You can call me un-Christian but that’s not true
Buddy I got a present for you

133 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:33:09am

Could have used the boy scouts…

“Loyal”

No, that wouldn’t work.

134 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:33:53am

re: #131 tradewind

Really?
Wow. Bet I can come up with three or four.
/Goes without saying/

You were just saying to me that there are those who want to be sure children aren’t infected with their parents’ noxious views …

135 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:34:13am

I’ve some problem with girls being able to get the Pill in school because it can have serious side effects and a parent needs to know to look out for them. Also, the Pill prevents pregnancy, not STD’s and I would hope that whoever prescribes them hammers home that fact. Not all STD’s can be cured with a shot of penicillin.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:34:30am

re: #82 MandyManners

I *think* No. 4 refers to sex education, birth control and abortion for minor girls.

I suspect it also provides cover for child abuse, but that could just be me being suspicious as hell.

137 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:36:53am

re: #114 reine.de.tout

It truly depends on the class and its details. My feelings go as follows-I object to children of pre sexual age being made to deal with all that at all. Its bad timing. A 14 year old has more need of “Sally has two mommies” or whatever it was than a eight year old. 1st grade is not the place for detailed aids awareness. Of course this makes us confront who is in charge of the child’s education beyond the three R’s. Wealthy families have more choice than those who depend on public schooling. OT but the whole voucher thing… Another hot button issue in education.

138 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:36:54am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect it also provides cover for child abuse, but that could just be me being suspicious as hell.

I cannot think of anyone who’s against teachers, school staff and other madatory reporters being required by law to report suspected child abuse.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:37:06am

re: #93 MandyManners

Birth control pills, that is.

Honestly, I don’t know. I think in some areas, condoms are available, but I don’t know if that’s true, or something I heard from someone who was upset about it without proof.

A kid who was in my class insisted that you could just ‘get’ birth control pills from the school nurse at her old school, without having to get a checkup or anything, but this is the same kid who told all her friends that she was pregnant and being forced to have an abortion by her ex boyfriend, and that wasn’t true either. I take anything from that kid with a big grain of salt.

140 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:39:11am

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, I don’t know. I think in some areas, condoms are available, but I don’t know if that’s true, or something I heard from someone who was upset about it without proof.

A kid who was in my class insisted that you could just ‘get’ birth control pills from the school nurse at her old school, without having to get a checkup or anything, but this is the same kid who told all her friends that she was pregnant and being forced to have an abortion by her ex boyfriend, and that wasn’t true either. I take anything from that kid with a big grain of salt.

She sounds more than a bit unhinged. Is she a drama queen all around?

141 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:40:20am

re: #116 reine.de.tout

We all probably could think of one or two examples.

Are you suggesting that, in order to avoid having one child’s mind poisoned by his parents, there should be a general policy ensuring that children are removed from their parents’ influence?

No. But as far as I am aware neither does marxism. It has however been far from an uncommon practice to remove children from their parents for various reasons in an almost industrialized manner in certain countries. In certain cases (USSR, China) for re-education purposes, in other (1930’s Germany) for very nasty reasons and IIRC I think there was some talk about this in Israel in the 50’s as well? (Someone here would probably know, I seem to remember reading an article about it somewhere).

What I mean is that removing children from their parents is not necessarily a “marxist” thing, it happened in certain marxist countries, under certain rulers but not in others.

142 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:41:22am

re: #141 enoughalready

No. But as far as I am aware neither does marxism. It has however been far from an uncommon practice to remove children from their parents for various reasons in an almost industrialized manner in certain countries. In certain cases (USSR, China) for re-education purposes, in other (1930’s Germany) for very nasty reasons and IIRC I think there was some talk about this in Israel in the 50’s as well? (Someone here would probably know, I seem to remember reading an article about it somewhere).

What I mean is that removing children from their parents is not necessarily a “marxist” thing, it happened in certain marxist countries, under certain rulers but not in others.

Totalitarian govenrments?

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #138 MandyManners

I cannot think of anyone who’s against teachers, school staff and other madatory reporters being required by law to report suspected child abuse.

Me neither, but I also suspect that if I report one of these guys for beating on their kids, it will immediately turn into the liberal teacher-minion of the nanny state against the God-fearing parent.

144 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:42:34am

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

Me neither, but I also suspect that if I report one of these guys for beating on their kids, it will immediately turn into the liberal teacher-minion of the nanny state against the God-fearing parent.

At that point I’d not give a flying fuck what the parent said.

145 Stan the Demanded Plan  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:43:13am

OT - Scozzafava officially endorses Owens.

[Link: watertowndailytimes.com…]

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:43:18am

re: #140 MandyManners

She sounds more than a bit unhinged. Is she a drama queen all around?

Oh. Yes.

I just remember that particular stunt, because her friends were understandably outraged, and almost lynched the ex-boyfriend, who sought shelter in the office. When the drama queen’s mom showed up to take her to the ‘abortion’ appointment, she got pulled aside by a concerned principal, who learned that this was for a dental appointment. Tooth cleaning, abortion, same thing, innit?

147 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

Me neither, but I also suspect that if I report one of these guys for beating on their kids, it will immediately turn into the liberal teacher-minion of the nanny state against the God-fearing parent.

{sfz}
honestly - there’s not enough money in the world to convince me I’d ever want to be a teacher.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #141 enoughalready

No. But as far as I am aware neither does marxism. It has however been far from an uncommon practice to remove children from their parents for various reasons in an almost industrialized manner in certain countries. In certain cases (USSR, China) for re-education purposes, in other (1930’s Germany) for very nasty reasons and IIRC I think there was some talk about this in Israel in the 50’s as well? (Someone here would probably know, I seem to remember reading an article about it somewhere).

What I mean is that removing children from their parents is not necessarily a “marxist” thing, it happened in certain marxist countries, under certain rulers but not in others.

Also the Spartans!

The early kibbutzim practiced communal child-rearing, for reasons both practical and ideological. There’s still a lot of argument over how it worked out.

149 simoom  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:44:22am

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody hear Rush this morning on Fox? Has it already been discussed?

I watched some of it. I also just refreshed my memory and saw some of what I missed with Media Matters clips.

Limbaugh basically:
* whined about his failed NFL bid and advanced some crazy theory that it was really Obama through an intermediary that was persecuting him,
* claimed Obama and his administration were launching daily threats to liberty and freedom,
* said he doesn’t think Obama cares about Afghanistan, and only pays lips service to it since it might interfere with health care reform or make him appear weak on defense,
* suggested that Obama went to Dover only as a political photo op and faked any concern he showed for the returning dead,
* said if he had the opportunity to interview Obama, the first question he would ask would be, “Why are you doing this? Why?? What do you not like about this country that makes you want to inflict this kind of damage on it?”
* accused Obama of doing nothing “for the country”, only to it. That his administration has the economy and the private sector under seige, and Limbugh believes they’re intentionally destroying them.

Maybe my memory is shoddy, but I feel like Chris Wallace used to be better than this…

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:45:24am

re: #144 MandyManners

At that point I’d not give a flying fuck what the parent said.

Nor I, but I do suspect that there’s some issues about home discipline wrapped up in #4. Doesn’t impact me, doesn’t change my mandated responsibilities.

151 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:45:42am

re: #142 MandyManners

Totalitarian govenrments?

Not necessarily. There is however a strong social engineering component to this type of thing and in order to be able to pull that off I think a totalitarian government helps. Generally however I think this is something that is more akin to forced sterilization/lobotomy etc, something that wasn’t that uncommon just 80 years ago and continued well into the 1960s in many countries.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:46:06am

re: #147 reine.de.tout

{sfz}
honestly - there’s not enough money in the world to convince me I’d ever want to be a teacher.

Ah, it’s mostly fun. On good days!

153 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:46:14am

re: #117 swamprat

Not sure what that has to do with my post, but the electoral situation today is remarkably similar to the one preceding the Republican midterm coup in Clinton’s presidency. Then as now Republicans won governorships that had been held by Democrats in two states and subseequently, Clinton was practically unable to get anything done .
There are plenty of Republicans running excellent campaigns. Bob McDonnell is the poster child. When Democrats tried to smear him with an old college paper re abortion he wrote while a student , guess what? The voters yawned, because they realize that the economy is more important that single issue ideology voting. Obama is having to send his top campaign man to NJ to resuscitate what should have been a walk for Corzine to re-buy.
You may want to hold the obit for the RNC until after the midterms.

154 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:46:23am

re: #82 MandyManners

I *think* No. 4 refers to sex education, birth control and abortion for minor girls.

The problem is, it isn’t specific, and is presented as an absolute statement.

And discussions here over the last few months related to vaccination point up how ridiculous such a stance is. Sometimes, the well-being of society - and the child - are better determined by the state. Vaccination is one of these cases. And so are all the children who’ve died because their parents decided to pray their diabetes or hemophilia or appendicitis away or who starved to death because their parents decided to put them on some bizarre “alternative” diet or who’ve been outright murdered by parents who thought they were possessed by a demon.

All rare cases, to be sure (although the anti-vaccination morons are growing alarmingly of late) but nowhere near rare enough. Even parental rights have limits when the parent’s actions wind up causing harm to children too young to make decisions for themselves. In such cases, the state clearly must step in, and has been granted the authority to do so by the citizenry. We live in a society where individuals are granted extremely wide latitude to act without interference from the state, but the reality is that the state’s authority trumps that of the individual and family, and that such an arrangement is a necessity for a well-ordered society. Putting the family’s authority ahead of that of the state leads to chaos, and the sort of existence exemplified in works of fiction such as The Lord of the Flies, Mad Max or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre - none of which are anything to be wished for.

155 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:46:33am

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh. Yes.

I just remember that particular stunt, because her friends were understandably outraged, and almost lynched the ex-boyfriend, who sought shelter in the office. When the drama queen’s mom showed up to take her to the ‘abortion’ appointment, she got pulled aside by a concerned principal, who learned that this was for a dental appointment. Tooth cleaning, abortion, same thing, innit?

I’d hope that her mom got her some help. There’s typical teenage histrionics and then there’s borderline personality disorder.

156 swamprat  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:46:51am

re: #113 swamprat

157 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:47:26am

re: #134 reine.de.tout
I was answering a post that took exception to mine by saying that there were times when children should be removed from abusive parents, which inspired a Duh. There are always exceptions.

158 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:47:41am

re: #149 simoom

ahhh, gotta love radio talker hyperbole. I’ve told you a million times, Limbaugh, don’t exaggerate!

159 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:47:52am

re: #154 SixDegrees

The problem is, it isn’t specific, and is presented as an absolute statement.

And discussions here over the last few months related to vaccination point up how ridiculous such a stance is. Sometimes, the well-being of society - and the child - are better determined by the state. Vaccination is one of these cases. And so are all the children who’ve died because their parents decided to pray their diabetes or hemophilia or appendicitis away or who starved to death because their parents decided to put them on some bizarre “alternative” diet or who’ve been outright murdered by parents who thought they were possessed by a demon.

All rare cases, to be sure (although the anti-vaccination morons are growing alarmingly of late) but nowhere near rare enough. Even parental rights have limits when the parent’s actions wind up causing harm to children too young to make decisions for themselves. In such cases, the state clearly must step in, and has been granted the authority to do so by the citizenry. We live in a society where individuals are granted extremely wide latitude to act without interference from the state, but the reality is that the state’s authority trumps that of the individual and family, and that such an arrangement is a necessity for a well-ordered society. Putting the family’s authority ahead of that of the state leads to chaos, and the sort of existence exemplified in works of fiction such as The Lord of the Flies, Mad Max or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre - none of which are anything to be wished for.

Beautifully said.

160 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:48:12am

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Bless you, you deserve combat pay… at least if you teach in the public school system.

161 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:48:28am

re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist

Nor I, but I do suspect that there’s some issues about home discipline wrapped up in #4. Doesn’t impact me, doesn’t change my mandated responsibilities.

I’ll never forget the time when The Kid said I couldn’t make him do something or he’d report me for child abuse. I picked up the phone, handed it to him and told him to call 9-1-1.

162 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:48:49am

re: #157 tradewind

I was answering a post that took exception to mine by saying that there were times when children should be removed from abusive parents, which inspired a Duh. There are always exceptions.

Gotcha.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:48:49am

re: #155 MandyManners

I’d hope that her mom got her some help. There’s typical teenage histrionics and then there’s borderline personality disorder.

She was working on getting her some counseling. This was the Crazy Little Hippie School In The Ghetto, and we tended to end up with some students who had some real interesting issues.

I’m so glad I’m back in Catholic education.

164 tradewind  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:49:26am

/Out to see if I can catch a glimpse of the little bro and family running/.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:49:28am

re: #160 tradewind

Bless you, you deserve combat pay… at least if you teach in the public school system.

I bailed. Catholic high school now.

166 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:49:36am

re: #151 enoughalready

Not necessarily. There is however a strong social engineering component to this type of thing and in order to be able to pull that off I think a totalitarian government helps. Generally however I think this is something that is more akin to forced sterilization/lobotomy etc, something that wasn’t that uncommon just 80 years ago and continued well into the 1960s in many countries.

Forcing those are totalitarian actions.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:50:44am

re: #166 MandyManners

Forcing those are totalitarian actions.

Lasted into the 70s in some cases in the United States, I believe.

168 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:51:15am

re: #154 SixDegrees

but the reality is that the state’s authority trumps that of the individual and family

Now, that attitude when applied to every situation makes me more than a bit squeamish.

169 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:51:20am

re: #161 MandyManners

I’ll never forget the time when The Kid said I couldn’t make him do something or he’d report me for child abuse. I picked up the phone, handed it to him and told him to call 9-1-1.

I’ve done the same thing.

My fave story, though, was when my daughter was, oh, 5 I guess, and decided she needed to run away from home. I got her suitcase out and handed it to her and said, OK, here, you can pack up if you really want to leave.

So I go into her room in a bit, and she’s packed a suitcase full of toys - no clothes, no anything other than all the toys she wanted to take with her.

And she ended up deciding to stay.

170 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:51:57am

The annual campaign in the 13th year of the War of the Leaves is underway, currently I’m fighting the Eastern front along my backyard fence.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:51:59am

re: #149 simoom

yep. Pretty much it.

172 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:52:05am

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

She was working on getting her some counseling. This was the Crazy Little Hippie School In The Ghetto, and we tended to end up with some students who had some real interesting issues.

I’m so glad I’m back in Catholic education.

Did you have a bunch of Indigo Children?

173 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

Lasted into the 70s in some cases in the United States, I believe.

Yep.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:54:18am

re: #168 MandyManners

but the reality is that the state’s authority trumps that of the individual and family

Now, that attitude when applied to every situation makes me more than a bit squeamish.

It’s a balance. Has to be.

175 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #166 MandyManners

Forcing those are totalitarian actions.

If memory serves something like 10 000 lobotomies were performed in the US in the post-war period. Worldwide we are talking about many tens of thousands. Few of these were necessary, many were used to curb unwanted behavior. (I seem to recall that one of the Kennedy sisters was subjected to this extraordinarily barbaric procedure for very unclear reasons)

176 S'latch  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:54:43am

re: #2 Charles

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

I submit that the government is not the ultimate authority, and the individual is. The government cannot force you to do something that is against your conscience, but that does not mean that any individual is above the law. The government’s law can be unjust, but it is still the law. You can stand on principal in front of a firing squad.

I am fascinated by the story of the death of Socrates so I offer it as sort of an example. Socrates was charged with the questionable “crime” of corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens. He was convicted by a jury, mainly because he offended the jurors with his irreverence. At the age of about 70, Socrates was sentenced to death. Socrates was actually offered an escape to some rival Greek city state, away from Athens, but he voluntarily accepted his death sentence by drinking poison hemlock. The State had always provided for Socrates, and he felt he owed absolute loyalty to the State even in that final matter.

The government was wrong. Socrates was not wrong, but he was not above the law.

177 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:54:44am

re: #169 reine.de.tout

I’ve done the same thing.

My fave story, though, was when my daughter was, oh, 5 I guess, and decided she needed to run away from home. I got her suitcase out and handed it to her and said, OK, here, you can pack up if you really want to leave.

So I go into her room in a bit, and she’s packed a suitcase full of toys - no clothes, no anything other than all the toys she wanted to take with her.

And she ended up deciding to stay.

The Kid once said he was gonna’ run away. A few minutes later, he asked me for my Visa so that he could book a plane ticket to Denver.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:54:53am

re: #170 Thanos

Really woody neighborhood where I am. Push the leaves off of the sidewalk, keep the gutters clear, and let it blow baby!

179 Bloodnok  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #170 Thanos

The annual campaign in the 13th year of the War of the Leaves is underway, currently I’m fighting the Eastern front along my backyard fence.

Yep. I bagged 12 battalions of them yesterday. My arms are still sore. And the wind just blew more from the neighbor’s tree into our yard.

180 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:55:14am

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s a balance. Has to be.

Who determines that balance?

181 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:55:47am

re: #175 enoughalready

If memory serves something like 10 000 lobotomies were performed in the US in the post-war period. Worldwide we are talking about many tens of thousands. Few of these were necessary, many were used to curb unwanted behavior. (I seem to recall that one of the Kennedy sisters was subjected to this extraordinarily barbaric procedure for very unclear reasons)

I think it was because she was sexually permissive.

182 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:56:24am

re: #181 MandyManners

I think it was because she was sexually permissive.

Just like a certain brother then.

183 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:56:51am

re: #168 MandyManners

but the reality is that the state’s authority trumps that of the individual and family

Now, that attitude when applied to every situation makes me more than a bit squeamish.

It’s not an attitude. It’s reality. That’s how things work.

The rest of my post touches on this matter in more detail.

184 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:58:19am

This of course is just the first assault of the insipid imperialistic leaves, I can see battalions and divisions still hanging back waiting for the second wave — which usually comes right as I’m expecting family to start showing up for Thanksgiving.

185 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:58:38am

re: #179 Bloodnok

Yep. I bagged 12 battalions of them yesterday. My arms are still sore. And the wind just blew more from the neighbor’s tree into our yard.

The Roi just mows up our leaves.

186 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:58:58am

Funny thing about lobotomy and totalitarian governments: the first country to outlaw lobotomy was…

The Soviet Union. In the 1940s. (This is not a defense of stalinism in any way, shape or form but rather an interesting side note that perhaps certain things are not black and white.)

187 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:59:28am

re: #182 enoughalready

Just like a certain brother then.

*rimshot*

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:59:34am

re: #172 MandyManners

Did you have a bunch of Indigo Children?

That would have been its own kind of hell. No, we had kids from the Iron Triangle whose parents wanted to keep them safe, and we had wannabe gang groupies, and we had kids whose parents couldn’t shut up about their kid’s special needs, and we had kids whose parents refused to acknowledge that they had special needs, and we had kids who couldn’t read.

We had the OCD kid, the pregnant kid, the kid who was a perfect gentleman in my class, but had apparently been forcibly hospitalized for attacking his teachers in the past. We had the girls who told me that I was trying to get them to ‘not believe in God’ when I mentioned the word ‘science’ in the context of teaching about poor old Copernicus and Galileo. And the alcoholic kid, who was on parole, and the kid who set fire to the school building…

It was the staff that were hippies. Mostly. They mostly also quit when the going got tough, leaving me and a motley crew of survivors under the leadership if an egomaniac having a nervous breakdown.

I LOVE Catholic education. Charter schools are for the birds.

189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #175 enoughalready

I remember how disturbed I was at the end of the movie “One Flew Over the Cukoo’s Nest”.

Hard to believe that stuff ever went on.

190 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:00:12pm

re: #183 SixDegrees

It’s not an attitude. It’s reality. That’s how things work.

The rest of my post touches on this matter in more detail.

No. I am the utlimate authority over what happens to me and mine as long as I don’t break the law.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:00:45pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Who determines that balance?

Ultimately, a community of voters, I suppose.

192 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #187 MandyManners

Thanks. I’ll be here all week.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #182 enoughalready

Just like a certain brother then.

Men with high libidos get to be president. Women, at one time, anyway, got institutionalized.

194 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:01:42pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

My goodness. I’d have bailed, too.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:02:29pm

re: #190 MandyManners

No. I am the utlimate authority over what happens to me and mine as long as I don’t break the law.

That’s the key issue. The law.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:03:02pm

re: #194 MandyManners

My goodness. I’d have bailed, too.

It was, as my mother says, ‘another GDF learning experience’.

197 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:03:04pm

re: #191 SanFranciscoZionist

Ultimately, a community of voters, I suppose.

Yep. Self-regulation beats having things imposed by one individual.

198 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:03:57pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

It was, as my mother says, ‘another GDF learning experience’.

What’s that?

199 JohninLondon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:05:27pm

Dede has now declared her support for Owens.

Yes, many will say this tilts the vote in Owns’ favour.

I’d not be surprised if her statement has the opposite effect - underlining all the claims that she is a RINO.

I reckon Hoffman will win.

[Link: watertowndailytimes.com…]

200 enoughalready  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:06:00pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, ain’t misogyny grand? Today we don’t even drill holes in their skulls. We just call them sluts and/or bitches.

201 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:06:08pm

re: #199 JohninLondon

Interesting.

202 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:07:29pm

re: #200 enoughalready

*whack*

203 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:07:53pm

re: #176 Lawrence Schmerel

Fair point. But do you give the 9/12 movement that much credit for careful thought?

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #198 MandyManners

What’s that?

GDF stands for for profanity. You can probably work it out…

205 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:08:23pm

re: #154 SixDegrees

The Lord of the Flies, Mad Max or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre - none of which are anything to be wished for.

May I politely disagree. I wish for these things — these movies — for Hanukah.
//attempt at jaded humor tag

206 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:08:28pm

re: #169 reine.de.tout

So I go into her room in a bit, and she’s packed a suitcase full of toys - no clothes, no anything other than all the toys she wanted to take with her.
And she ended up deciding to stay.


Mine got all the way to the end of the driveway, which is pretty long, when he realized he forgot to bring any food with him.
He was bitchin’ about something the other day (17 now) and I said “you are more then welcome to leave, get a place to live on $7.50 an hour while still paying for internet, video games and a car to get your ass back and forth to work”.

He’ll live with us until he is at least 30 I think.
(not that I really care. He is, most of the time, a quite a decent human being to live with and we enjoy his company)
But he will be paying room and board…

207 S'latch  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:09:47pm

re: #203 Rightwingconspirator

Careful thought is too rare to give anyone credit for it.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:09:52pm

re: #206 webevintage

Mine got all the way to the end of the driveway, which is pretty long, when he realized he forgot to bring any food with him.
He was bitchin’ about something the other day (17 now) and I said “you are more then welcome to leave, get a place to live on $7.50 an hour while still paying for internet, video games and a car to get your ass back and forth to work”.

He’ll live with us until he is at least 30 I think.
(not that I really care. He is, most of the time, a quite a decent human being to live with and we enjoy his company)
But he will be paying room and board…


Yeats lived with his family until he was thirty. He moved out because he wanted to lose his virginity, and needed his own place.

209 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:13:20pm

re: #207 Lawrence Schmerel

Hopefully not ‘round here. :)
If I though the 9/12 principles had a Socratic level of application, as opposed to mere red meat for the easily propagandized I’d be more impressed with them. Held to the highest standard it’s not so bad. Not bad at all. But the source gives us little hope for that.

210 webevintage  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:15:00pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeats lived with his family until he was thirty. He moved out because he wanted to lose his virginity, and needed his own place.

If only he was a genius.
I personally support the idea of multi-generational households as long as everyone respects each others space and boundaries. I feel for my poor late bloomer*, I hope that by thirty he will have had a least one girlfriend…or boyfriend (nothing wrong with that).

(not that I want him having sex…now)

211 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:17:27pm

Interesting reading the Hot Airheads comments on “Scozzafava endorses Owens”. They are all calling her a traitor but they’re missing the irony that they are the ones who sunk the Republican candidate. Oh, well. Saw that coming.

212 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #190 MandyManners

No. I am the utlimate authority over what happens to me and mine as long as I don’t break the law.

But it’s your closing statement that we’re talking about.

213 simoom  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:17:58pm

h/t From The Washington Independent:

[Link: washingtonindependent.com…]

Charles Johnson has an interesting catch here: In August, when he was still the struggling Conservative Party candidate lagging behind in a three-way race, NY-23 frontrunner Doug Hoffman signed the 9-12 Candidates pledge, based on the values of Glenn Beck’s 9-12 Project.
214 JohninLondon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:18:44pm

208 SanFranciscoZionist

You mention that Yeats lived at home until he was 30 - leaving home to lose his virginity. No wonder his poetry is so wet. John Keats had more passion in his short life, dying at 25 - and wrote better poetry !

215 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:18:59pm

re: #213 simoom

Great link.

216 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:19:12pm

re: #149 simoom

The show’s going to repeat at 6:00pm EST today, if anyone’s interested.

217 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:21:50pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

GDF stands for for profanity. You can probably work it out…

Oh, yes.

218 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:23:57pm

re: #2 Charles

Aren’t these two statements in conflict?

If the government is not the ultimate authority, how can you say no one is above the law? Unless you’re talking about some other kind of “justice.”

# 2 answers this one:

2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.

Beck is referring to his god’s law, albeit not overtly.

219 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:24:22pm

re: #212 SixDegrees

But it’s your closing statement that we’re talking about.

One can go too far when emphasizing or de-emphasizing the primacy of the individual. I think our Bill of Rights strikes a good medium.

220 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #218 eclectic infidel

# 2 answers this one:

2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.

Beck is referring to his god’s law, albeit not overtly.

I’m all for that as long as people don’t try to force me to adhere to their verion of God.

221 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:25:45pm

Foo Fighters

222 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:27:07pm

re: #220 MandyManners

What about any version of God?

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:27:21pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

Been married for almost thirty years. I’ll be moving out soon because I am afraid I am becoming a virgin again!

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:27:45pm

re: #220 MandyManners

I’m all for that as long as people don’t try to force me to adhere to their verion of God.

Which is one reason I don’t like the idea of politicians signing on to a statement that says anything about their religious life. As politicians, I mean.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:28:24pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Been married for almost thirty years. I’ll be moving out soon because I am afraid I am becoming a virgin again!

Good luck with avoiding that fate…

226 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:28:35pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{FBV}

227 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:29:02pm

re: #216 The Sanity Inspector

The show’s going to repeat at 6:00pm EST today, if anyone’s interested.

Or, the whole thing’s on YT, of course.

228 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:29:16pm

re: #218 eclectic infidel

# 2 answers this one:

2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.

Beck is referring to his god’s law, albeit not overtly.

So, where does one obtain the Secret Decoder Ring needed to decipher these covert statements?

229 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:29:33pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Been married for almost thirty years. I’ll be moving out soon because I am afraid I am becoming a virgin again!

Then will you change your nic to Fat Bastard Virgin Vegetarian?

230 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:30:07pm

re: #220 MandyManners

I’m all for that as long as people don’t try to force me to adhere to their version of God.

Well, that’s the clincher for me too. Unfortunately all too often I have heard politicians use “God’s law” to justify things that just rub me the wrong way. Simply put, I don’t trust people who promote their god’s “law” from the political pulpit.

231 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:32:15pm

re: #219 MandyManners

One can go too far when emphasizing or de-emphasizing the primacy of the individual. I think our Bill of Rights strikes a good medium.

It’s simply a matter of deciding what’s legal, and falls within an individual’s allowed sphere of action; and what’s illegal, and falls within the state’s power to intervene, curtail and punish.

The issue here is who holds ultimate authority, and that clearly belongs to the state. Where the line falls that divides legal from illegal behavior is another discussion.

232 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:32:43pm

re: #230 eclectic infidel

Well, that’s the clincher for me too. Unfortunately all too often I have heard politicians use “God’s law” to justify things that just rub me the wrong way. Simply put, I don’t trust people who promote their god’s “law” from the political pulpit.

I will go one step further & say I don’t trust the politcal pulpit period.

233 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:35:37pm

re: #222 McSpiff

What about any version of God?

Of course not. One is not forced to believe in God in America.

234 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:36:33pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I’m pretty sure it’s tied into some offshoot of Mormon theology. It probably makes sense once traced back to original scripture.

Reads more like Zany Day Platitudes than Latter Day Saints.

235 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:36:48pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is one reason I don’t like the idea of politicians signing on to a statement that says anything about their religious life. As politicians, I mean.

Yep.

236 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:38:21pm

re: #230 eclectic infidel

Well, that’s the clincher for me too. Unfortunately all too often I have heard politicians use “God’s law” to justify things that just rub me the wrong way. Simply put, I don’t trust people who promote their god’s “law” from the political pulpit.

One is tempted to ask whose version of God they are invoking.

237 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:38:49pm

Well, it’s Glenn Beck (and others) on Hoffman’s side, and Nancy Pelosi (and others) on Scozzofava’s (she is endorsing the Democrat for a House seat).

Isn’t it just as fair to hold up Pelosi as it is to hold up Beck?

If that is the choice, I’m against Pelosi no matter who it means siding with. She’s a corrupt agent of leftist radicalism and should not be in a position of political responsibility (oh - and Glenn Beck is not in a position of political responsibility, so we can simply ignore him).

238 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:39:03pm

re: #228 SixDegrees

Well, you can skip the decoder ring thingy by simply dissecting statements on LGF or just wait for Beck to open his mouth again.

239 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:39:14pm

re: #231 SixDegrees

It’s simply a matter of deciding what’s legal, and falls within an individual’s allowed sphere of action; and what’s illegal, and falls within the state’s power to intervene, curtail and punish.

The issue here is who holds ultimate authority, and that clearly belongs to the state. Where the line falls that divides legal from illegal behavior is another discussion.

I disagree. We are not made for the state. The state is made for us.

240 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:39:53pm

re: #214 JohninLondon

208 SanFranciscoZionist

You mention that Yeats lived at home until he was 30 - leaving home to lose his virginity. (snip)

About average for an early 20th Cent. Irishman—housing shortage and
all, y’know.

241 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:42:24pm

re: #236 MandyManners

One is tempted to ask whose version of God they are invoking.

It’s a good question. Reading through Malkin’s comment section today concerning the 23rd, and seeing the frothing, bubbling hatred being spewed at Scozzofava mixed in with avowals of belief, I can’t help but notice the rustling of leathery wings behind many of the statements.

One can argue endlessly over the existence of God. But there is no question that there is evil in the world. And right now, a whole lot of evil has hold of a portion of the GOP.

242 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:42:39pm

re: #237 AuldTrafford

When’s the last time you saw Pelosi weeping over an old Paul Anka tune? And the last time I checked, she’s a supporter of Israel - something a radical leftist would never endorse.

243 brookly red  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:42:55pm

re: #237 AuldTrafford

Well, it’s Glenn Beck (and others) on Hoffman’s side, and Nancy Pelosi (and others) on Scozzofava’s (she is endorsing the Democrat for a House seat).

Isn’t it just as fair to hold up Pelosi as it is to hold up Beck?

If that is the choice, I’m against Pelosi no matter who it means siding with. She’s a corrupt agent of leftist radicalism and should not be in a position of political responsibility (oh - and Glenn Beck is not in a position of political responsibility, so we can simply ignore him).

I just wish that I could find someone to vote for instead of against.

244 Perplexed  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:43:54pm

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.

* Duty to God and country,
* Duty to other people, and
* Duty to self

A person following the above would make a good citizen in any country.

245 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #241 SixDegrees

rustling of leathery wings

Satan and his minions?

246 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:44:29pm

I plead guilty on the Hoffman issue. What I know about that I learned here and I’m Independent and in Florida, but where does this 9/12 stuff come from?

It sounds suspiciously like a spammer scum trying to weasel in on 9/11.

247 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #230 eclectic infidel

Well, that’s the clincher for me too. Unfortunately all too often I have heard politicians use “God’s law” to justify things that just rub me the wrong way. Simply put, I don’t trust people who promote their god’s “law” from the political pulpit.

Appeals to “God’s will” or “the will of the Founding Fathers” are just substitutes for real arguments based on reason and critical thinking. Thinking about what a supreme being or people who’ve been dead for 200 years would think about current events and disputes might make for a nice intellectual diversion, but don’t add much to discussions about how to govern ourselves.

What’s absolutely beyond the pale is using either of those things as a club to beat your opponents into rhetorical submission.

248 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:45:38pm

To run around believing in something is a pale reflection of actually apprehending it, Mr. Beck.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:46:19pm

re: #239 MandyManners

I disagree. We are not made for the state. The state is made for us.

The state is made by us.

250 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:46:39pm

re: #244 Perplexed

Notice that clean is next to last. If you take a troop on a camping trip you will see why when you bring them back.

251 Mary Garth  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:46:42pm

re: #181 MandyManners

I think it was because she was sexually permissive.

Actually, she was born mentally retarded. But the lobotomy essentially turned her into a vegetable, which might have been Joe Kennedy’s goal: easier to institutionalize her and keep her out of sight. It was reprehensible either way.

252 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:46:46pm

re: #239 MandyManners

I disagree. We are not made for the state. The state is made for us.

Untrue. It’s the state who decides, for example, the fate of a murderer - not the victim’s family. And to revisit one of my earlier examples, if a child is murdered by their parent’s withholding of proper medical care, or is threatened by such action, the state’s authority clearly trumps the individual, not the other way ‘round.

Again, I think you’re confusing two separate issues: the fact that the state holds ultimate authority, and precisely where the line between state and individual action gets drawn.

253 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:46:56pm

re: #26 simoom

I’d love to get my hands on some of the questionnaires Hoffman had to fill out for some of his PAC endorsements.

For example Government Is Not God PACdoes not support any candidates who do not return a questionnaire that affirms that they are pro-life, pro-family and stand firmly against the unbiblical welfare state that is destroying the spiritual and economic greatness of our nation.

Here’s the PDF of their questionnaire:
[Link: www.gingpac.org…]

Some samples of the questions asked:

Anything he sent to Phyllis Schlafly’s Eagle Forum would also be interesting.

HOLY CRAP, serious theocon alert. I hope the local newspapers pick up on this allegiance.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:47:25pm

re: #240 Decatur Deb

About average for an early 20th Cent. Irishman—housing shortage and
all, y’know.

The Yeatses had money, so he could have been gone much earlier if he’d wanted—but it was a period when many Irishmen married late, so I imagine that played some role.

255 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:47:49pm

re: #244 Perplexed

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.

* Duty to God and country,
* Duty to other people, and
* Duty to self

A person following the above would make a good citizen in any country.

But he’d still need a good service project to make Eagle.

256 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:48:10pm

re: #244 Perplexed

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.

* Duty to God and country,
* Duty to other people, and
* Duty to self

A person following the above would make a good citizen in any country.

Right, but who do you suggest qualifies (atheists excluded of course), and who (else) does not?

257 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #239 MandyManners

The state is made for all of us, and to the point that we decide to share the responsibilites and priveleges of being part of the state, we assign portions of our authority to the state.

The determination of what those portions are is the purpose of elections and politics, or violent coups, in some nations.

The fact that our republic has sustained for over 200 years under such a model is less a tribute to those who wished not to assign any authority to the state as a tribute to those who willingly accepted the results of elections which made a determination they did not agree with.

258 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:48:41pm

re: #245 MandyManners

Satan and his minions?

Today, it seems that way. The pure celebration of hatred going on over there is certainly not something Christian.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:48:45pm

re: #242 eclectic infidel

When’s the last time you saw Pelosi weeping over an old Paul Anka tune? And the last time I checked, she’s a supporter of Israel - something a radical leftist would never endorse.

For all I know she cries over Paul Anka on a nightly basis, annoying the hell out of Mr. Pelosi and the kids. But so far she isn’t doing it in PUBLIC.

/

260 lastlaugh  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:49:26pm

re: #244 Perplexed


* Duty to God and country,

A person following the above would make a good citizen in any country.

A good citizen maybe, but not necessarily a good person.

God’s pretty nebulous here, and if your version of duty to God involves explosions and 72 virgins, or you are a citizen of a corrupt government then I would argue this isn’t a good “Value”.

261 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:49:52pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

The state is made by us.

Isn’t that implicit in what I said?

262 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:50:04pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

For all I know she cries over Paul Anka on a nightly basis, annoying the hell out of Mr. Pelosi and the kids. But so far she isn’t doing it in PUBLIC.

/

*chuckles*
*chuckles again*

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:50:19pm

re: #251 Mary Garth

Actually, she was born mentally retarded. But the lobotomy essentially turned her into a vegetable, which might have been Joe Kennedy’s goal: easier to institutionalize her and keep her out of sight. It was reprehensible either way.

We still have a lot of trouble dealing with the sexuality of retarded people. In those days, it was almost unthinkable. I think a lot of people were put through unnecessary brain surgery for just that reason.

264 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:50:46pm

re: #251 Mary Garth

Actually, she was born mentally retarded. But the lobotomy essentially turned her into a vegetable, which might have been Joe Kennedy’s goal: easier to institutionalize her and keep her out of sight. It was reprehensible either way.

I thought that her mental problems rendered her unable to control her sexual urges.

265 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:52:13pm

re: #244 Perplexed

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.

* Duty to God and country,
* Duty to other people, and
* Duty to self

A person following the above would make a good citizen in any country.

Eh. Most of the people I like have been anything but obedient. And that list is just fucking weird, anyway. Clean? Cheerful? Loyal? What country are you talking about, the Magic Kingdom? Knowing that anyone who claims a specific insight into the proper way to live a life is usually selling something, I’d rather everyone just lived their lives as they saw fit, and allowed me the same freedom.

My list would be very different. In fact, I would be very hesitant to create one. The omissions would speak much louder than the inclusions.

266 Mary Garth  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:52:20pm

re: #264 MandyManners

I thought that her mental problems rendered her unable to control her sexual urges.

Could be true too.

267 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:52:28pm

re: #261 MandyManners

Isn’t that implicit in what I said?

There are people here who don’t know you (not making any suggestions here).

268 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:52:35pm

re: #252 SixDegrees

I’m dropping the rope.

269 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:54:08pm

LGF is acting weird for me. Gonna’ shut down and brb.

270 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:55:02pm

re: #268 MandyManners

I’m dropping the rope.

Pull it up.
Fluids already used up, and probably recognized as such by now.

271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:56:15pm

re: #270 Naso Tang

Huh?

272 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:56:20pm

re: #242 eclectic infidel

When’s the last time you saw Pelosi weeping over an old Paul Anka tune? And the last time I checked, she’s a supporter of Israel - something a radical leftist would never endorse.

Sorry, the Paul Anka thing goes right over my head. Who was weeping over a Paul Anka song, and who cares?

And Pelosi would actually support Israel with military force? I can’t believe she would support Texas with military force.

273 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:56:24pm

re: #268 MandyManners

I tried google first- What does “drop the rope”mean here? Ending the discussion?

274 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:56:59pm

re: #264 MandyManners

I thought that her mental problems rendered her unable to control her sexual urges.

That was the excuse Joe used, but it is not an acceptable reason to destroy a person’s mind. Not by a long shot.

275 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:57:22pm

re: #244 Perplexed

* Duty to God and country,

I’m an atheist, and I’m not a avid patriot, though I do routinely hold an American flag (or an Israeli one) at counter-demonstrations. That said, I need to ask, what exactly qualifies as a duty to God and country? And given that we are discussing the United States, which God inparticular? I mean, what about Americans who are Hindu and for the most part, care less for 4th of July celebrations? These can easily be construed as rhetorical questions, I know, but I think it bears pointing out that one size does not fit all.

276 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:58:05pm

re: #272 AuldTrafford

I would only support use force to prevent Texas from rejoining once they seceded.

277 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:58:51pm

re: #276 PT Barnum

Roger that - if I lived in Texas.

278 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:59:52pm

re: #269 MandyManners

LGF is acting weird for me. Gonna’ shut down and brb.

You’re the Devil in Disguise.

279 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #273 Rightwingconspirator

I tried google first- What does “drop the rope”mean here? Ending the discussion?

One of Mandy’s fave expressions is to invite someone to “piss up a rope”.

My guess is that she’s dropping the rope to 6 degrees to make use of.

280 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:00:31pm

re: #276 PT Barnum

We could move the entire population of wingnuts in the other 49 to Texas and raise the average IQ on both sides of the border.

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:00:36pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

Hiya Toots!

282 Perplexed  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:00:39pm

re: #275 eclectic infidel

Worship your god.
Be informed about issues and vote.
Serve when called upon.
Step up to the plate when no one qualified is running for office.

283 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:01:06pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

Hah! Thanks. That’s good. It should be in the LGF dictionary. Or is it?

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:01:36pm

re: #272 AuldTrafford

Sorry, the Paul Anka thing goes right over my head. Who was weeping over a Paul Anka song, and who cares?

And Pelosi would actually support Israel with military force? I can’t believe she would support Texas with military force.

The Paul Anka reference is to one of Glenn Beck’s less macho moments.

When has the U.S. ever ‘supported Israel with military force’, besides arms sales?

Why do you believe Pelosi less supportive of Israel than other American politicians?

285 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:01:51pm

re: #280 PT Barnum

I get it.

Wait … maybe I don’t. Both sides; hmmm …

286 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:04:25pm

re: #282 Perplexed

Worship your god.
Be informed about issues and vote.
Serve when called upon.
Step up to the plate when no one qualified is running for office.

Worship your god.

Be informed about issues and vote. (check)

Serve when called upon. (??jury duty?? - that’s like indentured servitude)

Step up to the plate when no one qualified is running for office.
(noble idea but not practical. afterall, running against W. & Al Bore would have been futile)

287 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

The Paul Anka reference is to one of Glenn Beck’s less macho moments.

When has the U.S. ever ‘supported Israel with military force’, besides arms sales?

Why do you believe Pelosi less supportive of Israel than other American politicians?

During one of Saddam’s scud fantasies I drove by a Patriot battery
that had not been on the beach the night before. Just a deployment
exercise.

288 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:05:23pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

The Paul Anka reference is to one of Glenn Beck’s less macho moments.

When has the U.S. ever ‘supported Israel with military force’, besides arms sales?

Why do you believe Pelosi less supportive of Israel than other American politicians?

Well, we have pledged military support many times … back in the days when those kinds of things meant anything. And I believe a good many in Washington would still honor those commitments. Not Pelosi. My opinion.

And sorry about Beck. But - again - so … ?

289 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:07:10pm

COWBOYS!

290 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:09:32pm

The Hoffman supporters who considered Scozzafava nothing more than a warmed-over Democrat appear to be proven right now that she’s come out supporting Owens.

That’s not going to further GOP needs and goals, unless watching the Democrat win is meant to teach the conservatives a lesson. Problem is that I don’t think anyone is going to learn the right lessons from this. The state GOP is a mess, and Scozzafava has rewarded rank and file GOP support by pushing the Democrat? That’s not good at all and makes the moderate GOPers who backed her look foolish. It also further empowers the right and far right.

Instead of pushing party unity, it may result in sacking of state GOP leaders like Ed Cox (who recently took over). That’s more than warranted under the circumstances because they proffered a candidate who turned out to be the very kind of RINO that her opponents claimed. Party unity be damned - and it seems everyone is screwing over the GOP from all sides.

NY-23 is like watching the death spiral of the moderate GOP in NY.

291 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:09:33pm

re: #273 Rightwingconspirator

I tried google first- What does “drop the rope”mean here? Ending the discussion?

Yep.

292 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:10:08pm

Has there not been bipartisan support for Israel to date?
Are some trying to use support for Israel as a wedge?

293 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:10:16pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

One of Mandy’s fave expressions is to invite someone to “piss up a rope”.

My guess is that she’s dropping the rope to 6 degrees to make use of.

Oh, no. Rightwingconspirator was correct.

294 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #278 solomonpanting

You’re the Devil in Disguise.

I love Isaak.

295 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:11:35pm

re: #288 AuldTrafford

You can google (or whatever engine you like to use) Pelosi’s support for Israel’s right to exist. For example, pack in ‘05 she gave a pro-Israel speech at an AIPAC dinner. A good place to search out articles is on leftist sites such as this: With Hand on Heart: Pelosi Admits Israel Comes First.

I referenced the Paul Anka thing because I wanted to point out that Glenn Beck is regularly dissected on LGF because of his antics whereas Nancy Pelosi can’t even hold a candle to his behavior.

296 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:13:12pm

re: #292 Spare O’Lake

Has there not been bipartisan support for Israel to date?
Are some trying to use support for Israel as a wedge?

Said exercise (287) was ordered by WJC, a notorious right-wing Republican.

297 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:13:36pm

re: #295 eclectic infidel

correction,

pack = back

pimf

298 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:15:50pm

I like how good spelling didn’t make the list of virtues.

oligarhy!

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:17:41pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

Said exercise (287) was ordered by WJC, a notorious right-wing Republican.

Yes, but when Democrats do this kind of thing, it’s different…we can tell they don’t really feel it.

//

300 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:18:18pm

re: #298 spacejesus

Facist!

301 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #290 lawhawk

I’d love to get my hands on some of the questionnaires Hoffman had to fill out for some of his PAC endorsements.

For example Government Is Not God PAC “does not support any candidates who do not return a questionnaire that affirms that they are pro-life, pro-family and stand firmly against the unbiblical welfare state that is destroying the spiritual and economic greatness of our nation.”

Here’s the PDF of their questionnaire:
[Link: [Link: www.gingpac.org…]…]

Some samples of the questions asked:

2. Do you believe that an unborn child is a person under the 14th amendment?
4. Would you vote to prohibit abortion in all cases?

12. Do you oppose laws allowing homosexuals to adopt children?

13. Do you favor laws that restrict the production, sale, and distribution of pornography?

14. A. Do you believe clergymen should have the right to express views from the pulpit on legislative issues?

15. B. Do you believe clergy should have the right to support or disapprove of candidates for political offices from the pulpit?

16. Do you support the right of students and teachers to publicly acknowledge the Creator?

17. Do you support full freedom of speech in public schools including “religious” speech?

18. Should federal involvement in public education be eliminated, including eliminating the U.S. Department of Education?

35B In reference to question 35A, Intel Corporation supports “equal rights for gays” and offers benefits to “partners” of homosexual employees. Would you refuse funds from this corporate PAC?

Anything he sent to Phyllis Schlafly’s Eagle Forum would also be interesting.

Simoom’s #26. After the way Ms. Scozzafava was treated by Hoffman’s supporters (Scuzzi? was one of the nicer things they called her) and knowing that he’s the theocon dreamboat, would you really expect her to endorse him?

302 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:21:40pm

re: #300 jaunte

Facist!

Facist:
Image: gurning.jpg

303 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:21:50pm

re: #295 eclectic infidel

You can google (or whatever engine you like to use) Pelosi’s support for Israel’s right to exist. For example, pack in ‘05 she gave a pro-Israel speech at an AIPAC dinner. A good place to search out articles is on leftist sites such as this: With Hand on Heart: Pelosi Admits Israel Comes First.

I referenced the Paul Anka thing because I wanted to point out that Glenn Beck is regularly dissected on LGF because of his antics whereas Nancy Pelosi can’t even hold a candle to his behavior.

I would not call Dennis Raimondo’s site as merely “leftist.” He is a Paulian nazi moonbat.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:22:35pm

re: #301 funky chicken

Simoom’s #26. After the way Ms. Scozzafava was treated by Hoffman’s supporters (Scuzzi? was one of the nicer things they called her) and knowing that he’s the theocon dreamboat, would you really expect her to endorse him?

Well,if she were a Real Conservative, she would. In fact, she would have opposed her own campaign vehemently from the start.

305 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:23:58pm

re: #304 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL I believe you meant True Conservative, but your point stands.

306 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:24:03pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

Said exercise (287) was ordered by WJC, a notorious right-wing Republican.

OK, whatever.
BTW, Israel has never once asked the US to put American forces on the ground to fight Israel’s battles. All they have ever asked is for the US to supply them with the necessary weaponry.

307 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:25:42pm

re: #303 Alouette

There are many different flavours of leftist, of course. The ones who side with fascist ideology are definitely the more interesting ones. “Willing to fight perceived oppression with brutal oppression.” Entertaining from a safe distance.

308 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:26:45pm

re: #306 Spare O’Lake

OK, whatever.
BTW, Israel has never once asked the US to put American forces on the ground to fight Israel’s battles. All they have ever asked is for the US to supply them with the necessary weaponry.

Don’t know who asked what, but the crews were from the Ft, Hoodish
part of Israel.

309 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:28:47pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hiya Toots!

{fbv}
Hiya, backatcha.

310 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:30:22pm

re: #293 MandyManners

Oh, no. Rightwingconspirator was correct.

Ah. OK.
sometimes things get confusing ‘round here.

311 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:31:15pm

America is Good with a capital “G”.

Except when it isn’t, which is lots of the time.

312 Dotcoman  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:31:36pm

re: #69 reine.de.tout


It does, if you remember that Glen Beck is a Mormon.
Not picking on Mormons, here.

Just saying: the context might help. And that’s gotta have some bearing on his thinking?

The other mistake is in assuming that government is the ultimate authority, especially concerning justice and law.

Americans/Christians/ Jews/ Founding Fathers/ Declaration of Independence/ Constitution of the United States:
God
Man
government

Atheists/ Socialists:
Government
man

Beck/ Mormons(?):
God/Family ? (Family as a “Godly” spiritual unit? I don’t know, I wonder?)
man
government

313 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:33:04pm

re: #308 Decatur Deb

Don’t know who asked what, but the crews were from the Ft, Hoodish
part of Israel.

I know if my husband had a choice he’d rather put his boots on the ground in Tel Aviv than in Kabul. He said Tel Aviv had breathtaking scenery on the beaches, and (grr) I don’t believe he was describing the architecture.

I guess a little “window shopping” doesn’t really hurt anything.

314 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:33:31pm

re: #271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Huh?

You don’t know the rope trick?

315 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:34:45pm

re: #290 lawhawk

NY-23 is like watching the death spiral of the moderate GOP in NY.

There are always more moderates, they just need a gathering place these days.

Modern Whig Party? Does it look good?

316 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:36:49pm

re: #312 Dotcoman

I don’t neccesarily think it holds that Atheists think that Government is the ultimate authority on everything.

I’m an agnostic and an American, and I don’t think Government is the ultimate authority. It’s a quid pro quo. We let government have authority in certain areas in exchange for other benefits, like security and protection from predators, both economic and physical.

I’m of the opinion that all law is based on protecting people’s security in one or more of three areas:

Physical (Laws against murder, rape, battery, etc)
Economic (Contract law, consumer law, etc)
Relationships (Family law)

317 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:36:53pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder

Yes, to claim just as a blanket statement that America is Good, misses the point about this place, which is that America improves itself.

318 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:37:09pm

re: #313 funky chicken

I know if my husband had a choice he’d rather put his boots on the ground in Tel Aviv than in Kabul. He said Tel Aviv had breathtaking scenery on the beaches, and (grr) I don’t believe he was describing the architecture.

I guess a little “window shopping” doesn’t really hurt anything.

No, ma’am. Anywhere your husband goes they have only sand, camels
and ancient ruins.

319 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #71 sandbox

Perhaps I am a minority opinion here. I consider myself a moderate Republican, but I too considered Dede S. selection to run as the R candidate awful because she was in favor of card check and had accepted support in the past from the working people’s party (which is the Acorn outfit). If I lived in the district, I would vote for Hoffman, even though he is a social conservative, which I am not.

As, of course, would be your right. I couldn’t vote for Hoffman because RS McCain is part of his entourage.

I won’t vote for racists or for their buddies. On either/any side of the racial divide.

320 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:38:37pm

re: #313 funky chicken

I always described being married as being like going to a fancy restaurant without any money. You can look at the menu, but you can’t order anything.

Of course, when I got divorced and got my credit card back, I forgot where the restaurant was, and was afraid of food poisoning anyway.

Thank god I found a personal chef which has led me not to look at the menu and to be home for dinner every night.

321 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:41:20pm

re: #318 Decatur Deb

Damn right! :-)

322 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:43:54pm

re: #320 PT Barnum

I always described being married as being like going to a fancy restaurant without any money. You can look at the menu, but you can’t order anything.

Of course, when I got divorced and got my credit card back, I forgot where the restaurant was, and was afraid of food poisoning anyway.

Thank god I found a personal chef which has led me not to look at the menu and to be home for dinner every night.

That only holds if your former wife wasn’t part of that menu, of course. I’m glad you found somebody who suits you better.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:45:47pm

re: #312 Dotcoman

I wasn’t aware that human beings stopped being human beings once they organize and participate in government. Thanks for clarifying that!

324 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:47:07pm

re: #313 funky chicken

I know if my husband had a choice he’d rather put his boots on the ground in Tel Aviv than in Kabul. He said Tel Aviv had breathtaking scenery on the beaches, and (grr) I don’t believe he was describing the architecture.

I guess a little “window shopping” doesn’t really hurt anything.

My Orthodox friend insists that it’s our duty to Hashem to admire the divine handiwork. *grins*

325 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:47:55pm

re: #322 funky chicken

my former wife wasn’t on the menu at all, which was part of the problem. She wasn’t interested in being part of the menu.

My current wife ( or as she prefers to be called, my final wife) is everything I could have ever asked for. I still appreciate beautiful women, but it’s a much different thing compared to the way I saw it before.

326 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:54:23pm

re: #295 eclectic infidel

I referenced the Paul Anka thing because I wanted to point out that Glenn Beck is regularly dissected on LGF because of his antics whereas Nancy Pelosi can’t even hold a candle to his behavior.

And with that, I agree.

327 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 1:54:25pm

re: #275 eclectic infidel

I’m an atheist, and I’m not a avid patriot, though I do routinely hold an American flag (or an Israeli one) at counter-demonstrations. That said, I need to ask, what exactly qualifies as a duty to God and country? And given that we are discussing the United States, which God inparticular? I mean, what about Americans who are Hindu and for the most part, care less for 4th of July celebrations? These can easily be construed as rhetorical questions, I know, but I think it bears pointing out that one size does not fit all.

Where duty lies can, in convoluted or morally fraught situations, be very difficult to discern. But often enough, it’s pretty obvious. The little Dutch boy had a duty to put his finger in the dike and stay there, uncomfortable though it was. That’s the main difficulty with duty. Not to understand the requirements of duty, but to man up and do your duty. It has next to nothing to do with one’s religion and nothing to do with firecrackers. It has mainly to do with a willingness to see your fellow humans, and in particular your fellow countrymen, as kinsmen of a sort, worthy of help when the price of that help is not suicidally expensive or dangerous.

And sometimes, even if it is.

328 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:01:30pm

re: #257 PT Barnum

The state is made for all of us, and to the point that we decide to share the responsibilites and priveleges of being part of the state, we assign portions of our authority to the state.

The determination of what those portions are is the purpose of elections and politics, or violent coups, in some nations.

The fact that our republic has sustained for over 200 years under such a model is less a tribute to those who wished not to assign any authority to the state as a tribute to those who willingly accepted the results of elections which made a determination they did not agree with.


The point of the US constitution, as opposed to lots of other systems, is that everything not specifically given to the federal govt is reserved to the states, or to the people (Bill of Rights). It truly is a system of negative freedoms, which is what upsets Mr. Obama so much, since he is for a much more activist system which could actively “help” you as often as it wanted.

From the way you put things, I suspect you would agree - we should agree upon what we would have the state do, regardless of whether it conforms to the constitution and its prohibitions on practically all activities of this kind.

The history of the erosion of constitutional prohibitions has assumed a great deal of importance, as the results of ignoring such prohibitions have now become really serious, and often quite negative, despite all the good intentions. (See $46T in unfunded liabilities for Social Security and Medicare, for starters.)

When the income tax was introduced, the constitution was amended to permit it, as it should have been. When social security and the host of other programs promulgated under FDR were introduced, this nicety was not observed. This had two outcomes: some laws were indeed ruled unconstitutional, but the others, like social security, became the basis for essentially unlimited government, in theory. Since the preamble to the constitution talks of promoting the general welfare, someone of the FDR persuasion can justify the govt doing just about anything.

And indeed that is exactly what is happening. All a lot of politicians talk about now is how much more they’re going to do for you (without of course taking into consideration of what they’re going to do to you in the process).

A lot of religious people have turned to outlandish leaders simply because they feel that their morals have been severely compromised in a way that’s none of the govt’s business. The police power of the state compels school attendance, and when their children are there they unexpectedly get complete AIDS awareness instruction in the first grade, for instance. Or free condoms in high school, with no parental involvement, as a matter of principle.

So I think #4 refers specifically to this problem they have with such over-involvement of govt by saying that 1) the family is more important, and 2) that the govt should not be involved in this kind of thing.

The larger point is that there is too much going on that we have never voted for. The Hayek explanation is that the legislature is asked to empower “czars”, “expert panels” and the like, who then act without further review. This is indeed happening in education, but also more and more in the economy as well.

And I agree with #176, in that such subjects are complicated, as well as with the comments to the effect that not everyone is able to make the arguments for their position with systematic argument.

However, the idea that “we” can do anything we want with the state is something that is clearly against the intent of our constitution. Since I’m a great admirer of our constitution, I tend to agree that what the gov’t does should not be just whatever the current bunch of elected officials thinks would be really cool.

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:03:57pm

re: #316 PT Barnum

I don’t neccesarily think it holds that Atheists think that Government is the ultimate authority on everything.


It doesn’t hold at all. The demonization of athiests really grates on me. I’m not an athiest, but I loathe the mumbo-jumbo that one must believe in a higher power to have a moral compass. It’s paranoid bigotry and brutally, shockingly stupid. As if a person would just spin out of control and become a raving werewolf unless he believes in God. America overwhelmingly distrusts athiests as leaders, I think in this country the only major belief system that would be more distrastrous in a campaign would be Muslim.

Athiesm has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism, and can coexist just fine with conservatism. Most of the athiests I personally know are actually quite opposed to central authority, whether it comes from government OR organized religion. They’re far more likely to vote conservative/libertarian, they’re more along the Penn Jillette/Cato Institute axis than anything. They sure as hell aren’t socialists.

Maybe it’s a generation gap, that these associations don’t make any sense to me? I’m probably among the youngest people here, my friends are almost universally in their 20’s and 30’s.

330 AuldTrafford  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:09:35pm

re: #328 harpsicon

Mr. Barnum is one of those that is born every minute - believing the Constitution is irrelevant - that it is all about elections.

The founders’ greatest brilliance was in recognizing that one-man-one-vote is a license for highway robbery; if you look back at the history, you will find this was pretty explicit at the time. Vote followed responsibility, not craving for “stuff” from the government. Property was one of the highest values - not one of the great liabilities.

Mr. Barnum - and most of America - think the Constitution was designed to be a “living document”; i.e., of no importance beyond the first few years of its existence. After that, we just do what feels good.

331 jaunte  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:10:55pm

re: #329 WindUpBird

The 1950’s viewpoint was that since commies = atheists, then the converse would also be true.

332 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:16:17pm

re: #312 Dotcoman

What is this supposed to be? Some kind of mental pressure release, signifying no more than a fart?

333 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:23:01pm

re: #329 WindUpBird

As if a person would just spin out of control and become a raving werewolf unless he believes in God.

All the rest of what you say aside, there are many who believe that that this is what they are or would be, if it were not for their Pascal’s Sunday pretenses.

That is not my word, it is theirs, and I don’t believe theirs.

334 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:38:43pm

I am tired of “Atheism Vs. Religion”.

As if our opinions really change anything.

Boring.

335 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:40:38pm

re: #334 Ojoe

I am tired of “Atheism Vs. Religion”.

As if our opinions really change anything.

Boring.

I suppose politics and sex are boring to you too?

336 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:41:15pm

re: #335 Naso Tang

I suppose politics and sex are boring to you too?

Talking about sex on a blog is the most boring thing there is.

Politics? Eh.

337 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:52:29pm

re: #336 Cato the Elder

Talking about sex on a blog is the most boring thing there is.

Politics? Eh.

Maybe for some, maybe not for some, but what makes you think it is divorced from politics and religion?

338 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:53:38pm

I get the following rack of headlines from the conservative [Link: www.newmax.com…] and also ask how some of these headlines add up:

Third-Party Challenges Reveal Voters’ Foul Mood

More Stories
Scozzafava Endorses Democrat in Key N.Y. Race
Boehner Says GOP Wants Moderates
Year After Obama’s Romp, GOP Set for Va. Comeback

Run this by me again, then: a Republican candidates endorses a Democrat while the RNC endorses a Conservative party candidate, yet the party “wants moderates” and is “due for a comeback”?

339 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 2:57:31pm

re: #335 Naso Tang

I hate politics. I’m trying to make it go away. In case you haven’t noticed.

340 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:00:46pm

Perry de Havilland of the British libertarian blog Samizdata pronounces Sarah Palin to be the emerging de facto leader of American conservatives.

341 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:01:38pm

re: #339 Ojoe

I hate politics. I’m trying to make it go away. In case you haven’t noticed.

They don’t have politics in Cuba and North Korea, remember.

342 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:03:51pm

re: #330 AuldTrafford


Mr. Barnum - and most of America - think the Constitution was designed to be a “living document”; i.e., of no importance beyond the first few years of its existence. After that, we just do what feels good.

The bill of rights feels pretty good! So does the right to privacy, women’s suffrage, the end of slavery, the end of poll taxes… so guilty as charged.

We have a Supreme Court, and we’ll continue to have one, because as fantastic as the constitution is, there needs to be a mechanism for interpreting it. And as long as there are human beings interpreting that piece of paper, there will be different interpretations of that piece of paper. The constitution lives, because people live, and people apply the words in that document to government.

343 idioma  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:27:40pm

re: #29 Ojoe

I believe in God. She loves everyone.

[Citation needed]

344 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:28:06pm

re: #330 AuldTrafford

It’s so nice to have you interpret my understanding of the Constitution without bothering to ask me. Although I don’t believe the Constitution is a dead document, as many strict constructionists do. It’s not the Word of God, for cryin’ out loud, it’s a founding set of principles. To the extent that we have to interpret those principles in the context of events, technology, and a society that the Founding Fathers could never have envisioned is the extent to which I think the Constitution is a living document.

What I find offensive is that many of those who decry activist judges don’t have a problem with constructionists striking down settled precedent if it doesn’t happen to agree with their narrow view of the rights provided under the Constitution.

What I find difficult to take is that the same people screaming about the Constitution now didn’t seem to care much when Bushco was claiming it was “just a goddamned piece of paper”

345 idioma  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:31:44pm

re: #312 Dotcoman


Atheists/ Socialists:
Government
man

Atheists/Socialists?!
Seriously? Do you even know what those words mean? I’m an Atheist, do you presume to say what “we” believe? Did it occur to you that an Atheist just might have a problem with group think?

People like you make me sad.

346 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:34:12pm

re: #339 Ojoe

I hate politics. I’m trying to make it go away. In case you haven’t noticed.

Heh. Let me know when you do. I’ll let everyone else know the word. We can call it The New Religion and live happily ever after, for a short while.

347 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:36:37pm

re: #345 idioma

Atheists/Socialists?!
Seriously? Do you even know what those words mean? I’m an Atheist, do you presume to say what “we” believe? Did it occur to you that an Atheist just might have a problem with group think?

People like you make me sad.

Easy now. Dickheads sprout around here shortly before they flounce, usually.

348 idioma  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:37:43pm

re: #328 harpsicon

tl;dr

But you basically think that the cops are forcing kids to learn about AIDS and condoms… Why do conservatives want to make an enemy of law enforcement and education? Have you been to any countries where the government is uninvolved in these facets? I have, and those countries are scary as hell. Imagine a nice park in the middle of a city, with raw sewage flowing like a river, kids shitting in the streets, and armless beggars spitting at you. It’s something like that, which I would avoid in a country that put us in space, information at the speed of light, and clean drinking water for all. But you think FDR was wrong, so whatever.

349 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:46:16pm

It isn’t so much conservatives as a certain variety of political animal who thinks that they have all the answers. Most of us are smart and mature enough to realize that there are no complete answers, just enough information to ask new questions.

Those wanting to make the Constitution a carved in stone document are no different than those who see the Bible as the literal word of God, imho.

Oddly enough both documents are subject to interpretation, but the proponents of the above beliefs have mistaken their interpretation as the only true interpretation.

350 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 3:48:58pm

re: #328 harpsicon

You ramble somewhat, but all I get in the end is that we should really go back to our tribal roots and let local tribes decide how they want to do their thing; never mind this united nation (not united nations) stuff, unless it suites our neighborhood.

Sarc implied.

351 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:09:46pm

re: #341 The Sanity Inspector

Not like that though.

352 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:10:10pm

re: #343 idioma

“Dolly Parton.”

353 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:22:40pm

re: #312 Dotcoman

does it hurt being that arrogant and ignorant and wrong headed?


ok, so, there are no Christian Socialists. What was Jesus, if not a Socialist?.

354 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:32:32pm

re: #353 wozzablog

does it hurt being that arrogant and ignorant and wrong headed?

ok, so, there are no Christian Socialists. What was Jesus, if not a Socialist?.

Jesus was Jesus. “The poor will always be with us” isn’t really a socialistic statement.

But there are lots of socialist Christians. Many of them are liberation theology folks who do some pretty good work feeding and caring for the poor in Central America. Unfortunately they also support some rather shady political forces down there too.

355 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:38:13pm

re: #348 idioma

tl;dr

But you basically think that the cops are forcing kids to learn about AIDS and condoms… Why do conservatives want to make an enemy of law enforcement and education? Have you been to any countries where the government is uninvolved in these facets? I have, and those countries are scary as hell. Imagine a nice park in the middle of a city, with raw sewage flowing like a river, kids shitting in the streets, and armless beggars spitting at you. It’s something like that, which I would avoid in a country that put us in space, information at the speed of light, and clean drinking water for all. But you think FDR was wrong, so whatever.


Wow - such a willful misunderstanding of what I thought was a pretty lucid post!

“Police power” of the state simply means legal compulsion - as in, you have to go to school. It wasn’t always this way; indeed “public” education seems to have been a reaction to the Catholic “invasion” in the 19th century on the part of the Protestant establishment, so that the Catholic kids could be kept assimilated into the Protestant mainstream. (And before you scream about kids needing school, consider the outcome of public education in the major cities!!)

So, to point out that kids are compelled to go to school, where they find that “experts” have established a curriculum, with no outside input, which includes controversial sexual topics at controversial age levels, is not “cops forcing kids to learn about AIDS and condoms” - how stupid!

For your information, conservatives treasure education, and are in the forefront of the struggle to restore decent instruction in the public schools, in whatever ways possible (breaking the union monopolies through vouchers, making language and math instruction more rigorous, etc.) as well as restoring the “liberal” in “liberal education” i.e. allowing all kinds of ideas and critical thinking, not just the usual left-wing pap that so dominates in many universities today. Of course, I’m really a “classical” liberal, which winds up making me a “conservative” today, but please don’t confuse me with some of the morons calling themselves conservative.

Conservatives of my ilk also treasure the Rule of Law, as the very basis of society (as opposed to the kind of tricks pulled by Obama on the pension funds, and widows and orphans, holding Senior General Motors paper). If you check it out, the places where there is running sewage in the streets are generally devoid of the Rule of Law, and instead have rule of men.

The problem in such places is precisely that the government IS involved in such things.

As far as I’m concerned, it is the true liberal position to favor freedom in education and Rule of Law, as opposed to what folks like you favor. So forgive me if I take it badly that you throw around such insults.

And if you care about history, check out how many of FDR’s men thought that Italy, Germany and Russia had so much for us to learn from! (You know, the totalitarian states…) There is much to be debated about FDR, but you obviously went to school where he is a saint, not a politician.

Sheesh…

356 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:40:34pm

re: #354 funky chicken

Jesus was Jesus. “The poor will always be with us” isn’t really a socialistic statement.

But there are lots of socialist Christians. Many of them are liberation theology folks who do some pretty good work feeding and caring for the poor in Central America. Unfortunately they also support some rather shady political forces down there too.

I think it goes more like “blessed be the poor, …they will inherit the earth”

Take that as you will, but frankly I think that conservative or liberal, anyone who pretends to quote Jesus for justification of their politics is an asshole.

357 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:44:56pm

re: #355 harpsicon

Sheesh…

Sheesh indeed.

358 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #356 Naso Tang

he threw the money changers out of the temple and told people to pay state taxes ;-)

he was, all round, a pretty good egg.

Just a shame people had to go and make a religion out of it all really.

359 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:55:34pm

re: #354 funky chicken

there is a sizable Christian Socialist movement in the UK mainly based in the exceptionaly moderate Anglican tradition.

It’s just a helluva shame that socialism and atheism have got such bad connotations in the USA.

There are bad socialists and hideous atheists the same as there are corrupt free marketeers and hypocryitcal christians

360 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 5:59:46pm

re: #350 Naso Tang

You ramble somewhat, but all I get in the end is that we should really go back to our tribal roots and let local tribes decide how they want to do their thing; never mind this united nation (not united nations) stuff, unless it suites our neighborhood.

Sarc implied.

I didn’t say anything of the kind, of course! Where could you possibly “get” this from??

Where “liberals” rule, as in many universities, there is really only one answer to most questions. In the real world there are many, and I was pointing out that it is precisely the attempt to foist PC concepts like AIDS instruction at age five in the public schools that has made a lot of religious people crazy, and driven them into weird politics.

What’s so hard to understand about that?! We have a constitution which is a charter of negative liberties, i.e. what the government shall not do, precisely because for 99.99% of human history people have been ruled by kings, priests, soldiers and the like who left them very little in the way of liberty or property in almost all cases.

Having learned this lesson personally, the founders wrote a document intended to prevent people from lording it over us, even with the best of intentions (think of all those priests and benevolent despots!). This document has given us the most freedom and prosperity of any nation in history. Job well done! And yes, the constitution is a living document, in that we must get its intentions right, not be frozen like a religious text - but this should be by studying the overall philosophy of the founders and keeping their ideas in mind, not by saying, well, women didn’t vote in those days so the founders were obviously blinkered cretins who should be ignored whenever we want to do something against their ideas (and btw there is nothing in women’s suffrage which goes against the liberal ideal they upheld).

The kinds of Statism that arose in the twentieth century are however very much against their ideal, and to the extent that Obama finds lots of govt a good idea, I believe he is not in agreement with their ideal.

That’s what I was talking about! I guess in today’s universities you never even stop to think about things like this. And the irony is, you have grown up under the freedom and prosperity of the Reagan era, and as a result assume you will always be free and prosperous.

I hope you’re not in for any shocks in this regard - even little ones like waiting 18 weeks for an MRI…

361 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:00:08pm

re: #355 harpsicon


Conservatives are in favour of educational reform in everyway possible as long as it doesn’t need paying for.

Businesses also bemoan the lack of a quality education system - but bleet merry murder when asked to pay higher taxes that would buy up to date textbooks or repair crumbling buildings.

Yes - education is more than the sum total of money thrown at schools… but when schools are letting educators go and not hiring assitants and teaching in collapsing buildings and using out of date texts - it is about money to some point.

362 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:06:27pm

re: #360 harpsicon

Ok. The voodoo economics that it took Bush Snr and Clinton (with an record Surplus and PAYGO) almost a decade to recover from - were not all they cracked up to be.

And does the person who has no access to an MRI at all… care about where they have to wait a couple of months for one? Really?. please… tell us…no go on… really…we all want to hear…
Do us all a courtesy and think before snarking.

363 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:10:39pm

re: #361 wozzablog

Conservatives are in favour of educational reform in everyway possible as long as it doesn’t need paying for.

Businesses also bemoan the lack of a quality education system - but bleet merry murder when asked to pay higher taxes that would buy up to date textbooks or repair crumbling buildings.

Yes - education is more than the sum total of money thrown at schools… but when schools are letting educators go and not hiring assitants and teaching in collapsing buildings and using out of date texts - it is about money to some point.


Leftist cant, this, I’m afraid.

Why pay more for something when it is demonstrated over and over again that you don’t get anything for your money?! It’s the left that says “if only we had more money, more everything, that things would be so much better.” That’s the lie, demonstrated over and over again. Catholic school results are always better, and their teachers earn half as much, which has always perplexed the left, but they manage to ignore the cognitive dissonance, and talk about having to take everybody, as if the Catholics don’t have a whole lot of very poor kids.

There was a great anecdote in the last election, where Obama went to a school in Chicago where the school day ended at 1:30 and there was no time for language labs, science, etc. He asked if we couldn’t do more!

Which was total BS. The reason the school day ended so early was because of the Chicago Teachers Union contract, which had a 5.25 hour day and an $83K average pay scheme. And it seems that the union president who allowed that extra 15 minutes (in exchange for 7 extra holidays!) which wound up meaning a couple hours a year more teaching, LOST HER ELECTION FOR BEING A SELLOUT. Of course this union was a big Obama supporter, even when the NEA was still for Hillary Clinton.

Sorry. You have to do better than that. All the conservative and popular attempts to improve education, like the very successful charter schools in D.C. that Obama is closing, are thwarted every step of the way by the teachers unions.

If you want kids to learn, and college kids to have a great range of intellectual thought, you will quickly find yourself off the reservation as far as standard issue “liberalism” is concerned! Please - pursue this, and we’ll be waiting with open arms to welcome you into the ranks of real reformers.

364 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:13:30pm

Sorry, too late for dissertation dissection. Signing off.

365 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:13:48pm

re: #362 wozzablog

Every person in the USA has access to MRIs. Period. Medicaid patients and the indigent may have to wait a couple of weeks to get into a public (usually county) facility, but if they need an MRI and can remember to show up for their appointment, they will get one.

The pubic hospitals may send people to a CT scan instead of an MRI since the CT is cheaper and pretty much tells you the same thing…but people can get imaging studies here in America quickly and easily. Period.

366 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:20:10pm

re: #362 wozzablog

Ok. The voodoo economics that it took Bush Snr and Clinton (with an record Surplus and PAYGO) almost a decade to recover from - were not all they cracked up to be.

And does the person who has no access to an MRI at all… care about where they have to wait a couple of months for one? Really?. please… tell us…no go on… really…we all want to hear…
Do us all a courtesy and think before snarking.

Oh Please… I’m not snarking at all, just trying to open some eyes!

What person in the US is without access to an MRI? Well, some 5% aren’t insured, and thus can’t go and demand one, but at no hospital in this country will that person be turned away if he or she presents with symptoms which demand a scan. As opposed to the UK, where, with “insurance”, a person in this position waits for 18 weeks on average, instead of being rolled down the hall as he would be here. Is it any wonder that their cancer outcomes are worse than ours?!

Were you alive during the Carter stagflation? No growth, but 15-20% inflation, high unemployment, etc. (to say nothing of supporting deposing the Shah of Iran in favor of Ayatollah Khomeini, whom Andrew Young called “a kind of modern saint”). Reagan and Volcker came in, broke the inflation, lowered taxes and launched a prosperity that lasted for twenty years. If you can’t remember Reagan, you just have no idea how amazing this period has been - do you think computers and cell phones are the products of big goverhment a la Carter/Obama??

367 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:20:41pm

re: #361 wozzablog

Conservatives are in favour of educational reform in everyway possible as long as it doesn’t need paying for.

Businesses also bemoan the lack of a quality education system - but bleet merry murder when asked to pay higher taxes that would buy up to date textbooks or repair crumbling buildings.

Yes - education is more than the sum total of money thrown at schools… but when schools are letting educators go and not hiring assitants and teaching in collapsing buildings and using out of date texts - it is about money to some point.

The textbook industry here in the US is ridiculous, frankly. I taught middle school at a charter school, and our math books were in terrible shape…and our school tested highest in math every year.

Most suburban schools adopt new textbooks every couple of years (my kids are middle schoolers now; my husband’s military so we have moved all over the country and have seen it everywhere we’ve gone) and the new books aren’t any better than the old books.

I’d argue that in math in particular, using 50 year old books would be an improvement. Since the adoption of “new” math, US student math achievement and mastery has dropped precipitously.

And we’ve paid millions and millions of dollars over the years for that …

Frankly, kids don’t learn how to write the way I did 30 years ago either. Our schools would be better if they were using old grammar and phonics stuff too.

You are really spouting nonsense about stuff you’re not familiar with…

368 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:41:46pm

re: #367 funky chicken

re: #363 harpsicon


i am in regular contact with a couple friends who teach in Michigan and Tennese public schools.

I apologise for not being clear in what i meant about “out of date books” - i don’t mean 30 year old history texts.

They have, for the large part, modern books - but not for what they are being asked to teach. Educational “fadism” being flavour of the day in many disciplines requires new ways of teaching without the materials to do it. Books makeway for entire photocopied chapters because funds are needed elsewhere - less time efficient in the long run but it’s all the budget stretches to. Teachers and maintaince staff are not being funded for what they are being asked to do.

The failures of the American education system are - pretty much - systemic.

fadism, ill defined teacher training, poor buildings, strange and self defeating union contracts, too little innovation, too much innovation, good teachers in good schools and not enough “good” teachers in bad ones. Answers are not exclusively to be drawn from one side of the spectrum or another.

Answers to the above are not the exclusive domain of right or left.

But the re-introduction of one method or another, re-emphasising the three R’s or extending learning hours will need to be paid for, will need elements of re-training on the job and a clean slate in teacher training courses when new recruits enter the profession.

369 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:50:48pm

re: #366 harpsicon

A dear and good friend of mine in Pennsylvania was taken to the wrong hospital by ambulance, was knocked out by the paramedics, run straight through an MRI machine… total bill facing her when she got out was into 5 figures, largely use of the MRI machine - she had to file bankrptcy.

it was a useless MRI test she did not need and would have been prevented if there were electric records.

If your insurance company will sign off the paper work approving a co-pay - sure you can have one done under insurance. If the doctor who can only refer to certain special units can get you an appointment - sure you can have an MRI. There is already rationing in the system.

Just because everyone has the “right” to stay at the 4 Seasons doesn’t mean everyone can afford it. You can walk into the lobby, ask for a room and pay it off on a credit card… doesn’t mean you can actually afford it.

370 XopXproxyX  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 6:59:16pm

re: #369 wozzablog

A dear and good friend of mine in Pennsylvania was taken to the wrong hospital by ambulance, was knocked out by the paramedics, run straight through an MRI machine… total bill facing her when she got out was into 5 figures, largely use of the MRI machine - she had to file bankrptcy.

Republican response: Who cares it didn’t happen to me.

371 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:06:57pm

re: #366 harpsicon

wow. Sweeping, much?
My mum was taken ill in the middle of the night three weeks ago - we called an ambulance. It arrived within 10 minutes.
She started undergoing tests immediately. When an MRI was needed she was taken straight through on the guerny.

She was in for 4 days for further tests and supervision. Total cost - £12 for two prescriptons of complex medicines.

I have gone to my GP with chronic stomach pains a couple of years back and was sent straight to the A&E where i had an ultrasound within a couple of hours. Luckilly nothing serious.

My father, last year, presnted to the GP with dryness in his mouth - within two weeks he was seeing a cancer specialist and had a biopsy. false alarm - luckilly. he got all the meds he needed for free after paying a one off £90 to the NHS for that years precriptions for all his various conditions.


People presenting at their GP surgery with none urgent or none specific complaints have to wait longer than prospective cancer patients. It’s up to the GP as first point of contact to make the right call about treatment - but it’s a call they make on treatment - not cost.

Link to the taking apart of the Cancer Survival meme.

[Link: scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org…]

372 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:10:40pm

re: #370 XopXproxyX

the one main republican health care reform “don’t get ill”… and Tort… the two main republican healthcare reforms “don’t get ill”, “tort reform” and “laugh at the wheel chair bound in town hall meetings”… the three- three main republican plans for healthcare…

“nobody expects the GOP heathcare reform package…”

373 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:17:03pm

re: #372 wozzablog

why, yes. that was an utterly shameless snark. which was performed with many apologies to Python and the route of the #73 bus

374 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:20:07pm

re: #369 wozzablog

A dear and good friend of mine in Pennsylvania was taken to the wrong hospital by ambulance, was knocked out by the paramedics, run straight through an MRI machine… total bill facing her when she got out was into 5 figures, largely use of the MRI machine - she had to file bankrptcy.

it was a useless MRI test she did not need and would have been prevented if there were electric records.

If your insurance company will sign off the paper work approving a co-pay - sure you can have one done under insurance. If the doctor who can only refer to certain special units can get you an appointment - sure you can have an MRI. There is already rationing in the system.

Just because everyone has the “right” to stay at the 4 Seasons doesn’t mean everyone can afford it. You can walk into the lobby, ask for a room and pay it off on a credit card… doesn’t mean you can actually afford it.

1) I guess this means she didn’t have insurance. If this was a calculated risk (I don’t need insurance; nothing is going to happen to me, and I’d rather spend the money on something else), I guess she lost.

2) If she were indigent, she would have received the treatment gratis, so I assume, since she had to declare bankruptcy, that in fact 1) obtained.

Whatever you might prefer to be the game, you have to play the game that exists. This story, as a result, is very unconvincing - if she was playing, she lost.

What does the wrong hospital have to do with it, btw?

375 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:26:04pm

re: #371 wozzablog

From what I can figure out of the English system from reading and anecdote, I think I have a pretty good picture of it.

My take on your stories is that you are of the higher classes, since everyone I speak with tells me that in the better neighborhoods, the NHS treats people quite well. Is this true? Of course, here the better classes also get very good treatment…

One of the main complaints I hear about is dental, interestingly enough - an American ex-pat I know says that his kids’ teeth are so bad that he had to save up thousands of dollars to get them decent dentistry in the US when on vacation. (Of course he is of the better classes, and says that otherwise the system more or less works for him.)

It seems that the British class system once again trumps everything, and that the Liverpool sedation protocol is probably not being used on the upper classes to save money.

Your take on this, please…

376 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:26:06pm

re: #366 harpsicon

The Internet was a “big” “gubinmint” programme for connecting bunkers.

Noise cancellation and any number of mobile communications innovations are from collegiate teams of research scientists’

the people who invented the Silicon chips got their starts in government defence contract work or in during university research.

Nokia a (Finnish firm -labouring under massive leftwing government) are currently suing Apple (a plucky american underdog) for multiple breaches of patents developed in a stifling communistic european economy.

the lineage of many of the great medical breakthroughs are in University research or through European pharma companies.

377 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:29:20pm

re: #370 XopXproxyX

Republican response: Who cares it didn’t happen to me.

Talk about snark… Pulllease…

If the “death panels” part hadn’t been located in the section of the health care bill concerned with cost containment, I might have believed that the Democrats merely wanted us to talk about the eventualities of getting old.

The “Get Sick and Die” meme from the idiot Dem congressman in Florida (a big ACORN man, btw) would seemingly be more appropriate as a hoped-for outcome of Obamacare, where cost containment seems to be so high on the needs list…

378 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:36:22pm

re: #374 harpsicon

she had insurance. the hospital she was taken to did not recognize her policy.

It’s a very real story laid out to me in excruciating detail - of which just the edited highlights were provided you.
I left out her multiple appeals to her insurance firm and the hospital administrators - her attempts to hold the Ambulance operators liable for negligence in rendering her unconsious (they later admitted fault on that, but not in taking her to a hospital that would not take her insurance).

Her experiences are of a myriad of Dante’s infernos. She is currently on COBRA paid for with the last of her liquidated assets. It runs out next month and back in a new job - without coverage - with pre-existing conditions she can not find private coverage.

I will not provide you wth my MSN chat logs. But i will be sure to let her know how improbable you find her situation. She really does need that extra cold comfort. thank you.

379 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:48:11pm

re: #375 harpsicon

OMG -WOW - the trifecta. Acorn, Obamacare and Deathpanels. Woah. Thats pushing the debating boat out and setting high sail…


re: #377 harpsicon


we are not wealthy and our postal code contains many different economic backgrounds. Class has nothing to do with it, it’s all about wherewithall.

All medical systems around the world have problems with treating the elderly - to portray the UK as having a particular problem is disengenous. The fact that cases like Liverpool come to light isn’t that they happen to people with money alike, but that people with Familys sniff around and kick up a fuss with the hospital and local representatives.
Family is more important than money tenfold in dealing with any healthcare system of beaurocracy anywhere in the world as generally the worst reported cases are those of no-one to speak for them when things go wrong. and things do go wrong. anyone who tells you their own particular system is without fault are dirty filthy stinking liars.

Dental is pretty bad if your local dentist does not provide NHS treatment and fewer and fewer are. The Government sold the farm lock stock and barrel to the dentists during contract talks a few years ago.

380 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:50:03pm

re: #379 wozzablog

RE: 375.
Don’t rise to the bait of a snark if all you have are talking points to throw back at it. Best not to enage it at al in such cicumstances. Just call someone on being a snark and down ding it.

381 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:50:28pm

re: #379 wozzablog

Acorn, Obamacare and Death Panels..Oh my!

BTW…how ya been?

382 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:53:44pm

re: #381 PT Barnum

Been on deadline for 3 seperate freelance projects this week. Also been coping with my mums recent illness and my dads continued ill health.

otherwise not too bad. Some fun (if not fiscal) employment opportunities coming down the tracks. could be worse. could be a helluva lot better, but could be worse.

How the blazes are you oldboy?. not crossed paths for a week or so.

383 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:57:45pm

re: #376 wozzablog

The Internet was a “big” “gubinmint” programme for connecting bunkers.

Noise cancellation and any number of mobile communications innovations are from collegiate teams of research scientists’

the people who invented the Silicon chips got their starts in government defence contract work or in during university research.

Nokia a (Finnish firm -labouring under massive leftwing government) are currently suing Apple (a plucky american underdog) for multiple breaches of patents developed in a stifling communistic european economy.

the lineage of many of the great medical breakthroughs are in University research or through European pharma companies.


SO???

The military does indeed pay for a lot of research, both basic and applied. And unlike a lot of other countries, ours makes this stuff available to civilians. I’m surprised you didn’t mention GPS, which we literally make available even to our battlefield enemies, since it’s really not feasible to do otherwise. And what a surprise, to hear that research goes on in universities, and that some medicines were developed in Europe… What’s the point of saying this?? Even in universities most under leftist sway, the hard science education is still very good, and while not so much medicine-related research goes on in Europe nowadays, there is some, especially when you put it in the past tense…

Finland hardly has a “massive left-wing government” - the Heritage Foundation ranks them as 17th freest in the world (US ranks 6th), so it’s not surprising they have great companies like Nokia. (France ranks 64th, fyi.)

You have all the not-so-correct leftist talking points at the ready; I hope you realize I’m not replying in kind. The idea that everybody on the right is a hopeless idiot is a bit exaggerated. Probably the reverse is more true, but what’s the point.

How about sticking to something more logical than “the govt has done some good things, so they are good,” which appears to be the point of your post… The govt does some good things, but that doesn’t mean that we should morph from a relatively free society into a statist system with way too much govt control, like France.

384 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 7:58:17pm

re: #382 wozzablog

mostly working..

my mentor at Toastmasters has suggested I start coming up with some ideas for speeches and start thinking about working my way into getting paid for shooting my mouth off.

Working on something regarding knowledge/awareness that I think will be marketable…being somewhat along the lines of what you are aware you know and what you aren’t aware you know etc…and how that plays into any number of areas, personally and professionally.

My speaking style is humor tied to personal development, so I hope that I can find a good niche and maybe make a living at it someday.

In the meantime, there’s always somebody who needs a database written or a computer fixed.

385 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:03:31pm

re: #378 wozzablog

she had insurance. the hospital she was taken to did not recognize her policy.

It’s a very real story laid out to me in excruciating detail - of which just the edited highlights were provided you.
I left out her multiple appeals to her insurance firm and the hospital administrators - her attempts to hold the Ambulance operators liable for negligence in rendering her unconsious (they later admitted fault on that, but not in taking her to a hospital that would not take her insurance).

Her experiences are of a myriad of Dante’s infernos. She is currently on COBRA paid for with the last of her liquidated assets. It runs out next month and back in a new job - without coverage - with pre-existing conditions she can not find private coverage.

I will not provide you wth my MSN chat logs. But i will be sure to let her know how improbable you find her situation. She really does need that extra cold comfort. thank you.

Sorry to hear this - what a nightmare! btw I think that the fact that the delivery of care in America is chaotic is the reason that it’s possible to push systems that really would represent many steps backwards. Please remember that a lot of the insurance maze is the direct result of govt mandates and restrictions, and the attempts of an industry with quite low profits to survive in the face of myriad problems - including your story, to be sure. The insurance companies hardly control the hospitals!

Please rather send your friend my sympathies!

386 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:15:06pm

re: #383 harpsicon

So - government is bad except when it’s good?

Heritage Foundation is hardly the OECD. Heritage is - given their pundits put forward to the news media - hackery of a very high order. Heritage are not an indepentdent ranking organisation. Thats like claiming the Lewin Group are actually “a real boy” without a wooden nose. Not to disparage the messenger - but when Melon-Scaife funds something fair minded, call me.

Not all Government is good - I will never say that. Government can have a chilling effect on all sorts of areas of public and private enterprise.

I was responding you your statement which seemed to say that only nations with small governments - like the one Reagan still managed to extend rather than cut - could provide important innovation.

All of Scandinavia has very high levels of personal freedom - thats what wingnuts really hate about them, its not the socialism - its the “permissiveness”.

France, on the other hand, is still France.

387 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:26:01pm

re: #384 PT Barnum

ah. good stuff.

a couple of my projects have been writing assignments that a magazine editor friend offered me after reading my witicisms and general demeanor through some of my blog and facebook.

good luck on the humour and continued best wishes in the computer field. Computers are my bread and butter - well, bread or butter at the moment as i’ve been squeezed hideously recently.

388 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:35:41pm

re: #377 harpsicon

Talk about snark… Pulllease…

If the “death panels” part hadn’t been located in the section of the health care bill concerned with cost containment, I might have believed that the Democrats merely wanted us to talk about the eventualities of getting old.

The “Get Sick and Die” meme from the idiot Dem congressman in Florida (a big ACORN man, btw) would seemingly be more appropriate as a hoped-for outcome of Obamacare, where cost containment seems to be so high on the needs list…

Let’s be honest—a huge problem with the staggering expense of American health care is that people demand all kinds of expensive futile care for frail elderly people who are at the end of their lives.

I went for my first mammogram last week (Dr yelled; I’m well past 40; no lumps or problems so I ignored it). Anyway, in most parts of the US, super fancy “breast imaging centers” have gone up over the last decade or so. I sat in the waiting room with lots of octogenarians who got their mammograms and cheerfully scheduled their annual exam for next year. The place was fancier (granite, gleaming hardwood, high end furniture, etc) than any hotel I’ve ever stayed in. I was by far the youngest person there, and the only one whose exam wasn’t paid for by medicare.

Sorry, but that’s hugely wasteful. A mammogram could very well be done in a plain hospital radiology department. And I’m not sure we need to pay for octogenarians to get annual mammograms. I guarantee I won’t want to undergo major surgery and radiation/chemotherapy in my 80s. I’d only do it now because my kids are still young and my husband deploys overseas.

Death panel? Nope. But don’t tell me that medicare isn’t providing a level of care that an awful lot of Americans don’t have access to, or that paying for mammograms every three years instead of every year after age 70 would be a better use of government resources.

Now, medicare is going to bankrupt us if we keep it going in its current form. The US has a huge population compared to the UK and Canada. We can’t afford to insure every American with the public option.

389 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:43:29pm

re: #385 harpsicon

Health insurance companys make - in the face of the industry they are in - obscene profits. Year after recent year of increased profits, massive salarys at the top and large stock dividends - while my friend only has COBRA.

I am really certain the Media was full of Insurance company CEO’s bleating about being painted into the corners of being regional monopolies - after all - no company wants to be in a position where they have 70% + of a whole regions business at the expense of a fraction of a national percentile.

If Insurance firms had lobbied for reforms half as hard as they have lobbied against the current proosals i could believe they hate the current system. In the face of their large profits based on ever higher premiums and ever more people ejected from rolls due to “pre-existing conditions” and with the life span gap between those with comprehensive insurance and no insurance widening alarmingly. the current system does not work - a system enabling comprehensive cover to all will raise the levels of national and underlying health.

I will pass my friend your good wishes.

390 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:56:45pm

re: #388 funky chicken

I agred with everything in your post until the final sentence. Everything.

the “Public Option” is - an option - to be payed for by those who take it - and by firms who refuse to cover their employees. The costs for employers in fines will be broadly inline with training a new employee to take over from a sick one, and the scale doesn’t kick in until a firm has more than 10 employees.

The “Public Option” - if opened out wider than legislated - would offer comprehensive cover to millions and millions who’s health outcomes would improve dramatically. Peopl without comprehensive cover - and with no cover - who will have access to prescription drugs to manage conditions and the abillity to catch potentially debillitating conditions early will pay for itself over a period of years. If a $100 course of medication can stave off years of economic inactivity, is it not worth it to recover the payroll taxes, sales and federal taxes you will recoup from that individual who would otherwise be a taker from the system?.

Medicare needs reform - and the points you highlight are great places to start - but the answer is not more private cover with vastly inflated overheads.

On the basis of individual systems yes - the USA ismany multiples larger than the UK or France, but if you compile the outlay of Europe as a whole, Australia and Canada - with National programmes that cover everyone the populations are the same. Costs are a full 1/3 lower in the Nationalised countrys, life expectancies are longer, health outcomes either much better or broadly comparable where statistics exist. (see an above post of mine for the apples and oranges cancer statistics comparisons)

391 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 8:57:59pm

re: #389 wozzablog

tell your friend to make contacts at the closest public/county hospital to her home before her cobra runs out. One huge concern I have with adopting a public option here in the US—the vast majority of Americans are convinced that our public hospitals are crap. It’s simply not true. They can probably refer her out to a reduced-cost primary care clinic also. It won’t be fancy, and may not be in the best part of town, but she will get good, compassionate care there.

Most Americans would/will scream to high heaven if their public option insurance routes them to those kinds of facilities, however. For proof, look at the screaming at Michelle Obama and the UCMC for their attempts to direct medicaid/indigent patients to more appropriate facilities.

My mom is a retired hospital admin nurse, and she dealt extensively with medicaid patients showing up at her private hospital and their refusal to go to the public hospital even though it was quite good. So we have many issues here in the US to work through that you Brits don’t deal with.

392 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:05:24pm

re: #390 wozzablog

Our life expectancy rates are much lower than Euro countries for many reasons, but access to medical care is way down on the list. Especially in our inner city/minority populations, violent crime kills many people very young. The inner city/minority population eats badly and exercises way too little, and has a terrible substance abuse problem.

etc, etc, etc

We already have a public option for the poor called medicaid. We could expand it somewhat to cover people who can’t get other coverage, and probably should. But enrollees would need to know up front that they are to use public/county facilities and that their choices of other providers would be limited. Americans simply aren’t used to being told those kinds of things, and won’t take it well.

Eventually we might get there…but it will take lots of very honest education of the public, and we also don’t have politicians who are willing to tell the truth.

393 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:05:59pm

re: #391 funky chicken

my friend is utilising all her options with regard to charitys and public hospitals. It just isn’t enough to manage her various conditions. She can work - barely and only with severe discomfort.

She has been in this position some time and knows the system - cursing everyday the fact that she has to.

The Public Option - as drafted - is drafted so finely that the number eligible will doubtful complain as it is the ones with no access and severely limited access presently who would be allowed in. I very much doubt they would look such a - relative - gifthorse in the mouth. Relative in that they will still have to pay for it or if they can not still summount such beaurocracy as would grant them subsidy.

394 funky chicken  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:06:05pm

with that, I’m off to bed :-)

395 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:08:16pm

re: #394 funky chicken

good night.

and -agreed - it will be a long road hard travelled before any real reforms start helping those falling through the cracks.

396 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:11:38pm

i am also going to bed.

night all

397 Steffan  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:13:55pm

I’m convinced that the polititians on both sides don’t believe in or care about the drek they’re spouting. They are each pandering to the base, and pandering to their audiences.

Obama’s been doing it all his life.

398 harpsicon  Sun, Nov 1, 2009 9:46:44pm

re: #389 wozzablog

Health insurance companys make - in the face of the industry they are in - obscene profits. Year after recent year of increased profits, massive salarys at the top and large stock dividends - while my friend only has COBRA.

I am really certain the Media was full of Insurance company CEO’s bleating about being painted into the corners of being regional monopolies - after all - no company wants to be in a position where they have 70% + of a whole regions business at the expense of a fraction of a national percentile.

If Insurance firms had lobbied for reforms half as hard as they have lobbied against the current proosals i could believe they hate the current system. In the face of their large profits based on ever higher premiums and ever more people ejected from rolls due to “pre-existing conditions” and with the life span gap between those with comprehensive insurance and no insurance widening alarmingly. the current system does not work - a system enabling comprehensive cover to all will raise the levels of national and underlying health.

I will pass my friend your good wishes.

They make something like 2.1% return on capital, which is quite low compared with other fields, and hardly qualifies as obscene, unless you’re saying that because they’re in health care they should deploy their capital for no return at all. Whatever you think about high salaries, dividends, etc. the figure is in comparison to other businesses using the same metrics - like saying that unemployment is really X% - but if so then the same differential would obtain in other comparisons to unemployment at other times and places.

You may consider all profits to be obscene, but that’s a different issue!

Insurance companies have been lobbying for years to be free to compete out-of-state, which would save tons of people money, as well as to be able to offer more kinds of policies, instead of having to conform to government regulations. To say nothing of having caps on tort for pain/suffering. In Texas, pretty much all the ob-gyns closed up shop a few years ago, thus rousing the somnolent legislature into action. They capped these suits, malpractice premiums tanked, and doctors have been flocking back ever since.

I lived in NYC when the AIDS lobby got the state to allow people to sign up without regard to existing conditions and to make all policies contain lots of new coverages, and my premiums tripled in a year or so. Over 1.5M people have left NY state in the past 8 years, primarily due to taxation, but also because of things like the cost of health insurance under these conditions. The average policy there is $12K as opposed to $5K most everywhere else.

The problem with the Public Option in the current bills is that the govt will be free on the federal level to impose the same kinds of regs as they have in NY. So “you can keep your current policy if you like it” except that it will probably cost triple, if it’s still legal at all. Thus a colossal number of people will take govt insurance, which is of course the goal - the implementation of single payer, a la the UK.

And as the lady says, Americans aint’ gonna like that at all, once they get a taste of it. We’re used to flying first class when it comes to health care, and I definitely agree that when the govt is paying, that won’t work. But if we can really save as much as Obama says, we could maybe salvage the existing system, which crashes and burns in a very few years. And by liberating the insurance for the rest of us from tax distortions (some deductible, some not, some tax-free), tort distortions, and most other market distortions, so that the whole system wouldn’t look like a Max Escher pretzel, as it currently does, I think there might be a very nice outcome.

Consider how well free markets like computers work, as opposed to hospital equipment markets, where if they mimicked computers you’d be getting an MRI at Wal-Mart for $4 at this point!

399 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 4:36:12am

Not all profits are obscene - i’m not a communist, but when a CEO picks up almost 12 figures as a total yearly renumeration and in the same breath can tell someone they are not covered for a life saving drug of 4 figures - call me a bleeding heart, but that is flat out wrong.

Thus a colossal number of people will take govt insurance, which is of course the goal - the implementation of single payer, a la the UK.


They will not be eligible. The Legislation as drafted is closing a coverage gap - that is all. Single Payer is not on the way, the Lewin Group is not an independent think tank - and even if by some miracle Medicare Part E made it through the congress people would be free to keep their over priced private plans if they wanted.
Very very very few people are advocating doing away with private insurance firms entirely - in the UK, France, Germany and Scandinavia you can buy private insurance on top of the National/Single Payer schemes operating.

The Current Legislation will also free up insurance companies - so a certain extent - they can cross state lines - but the states need to do a helluva lot of that work in opening up their own trade practices.

I still find it very hard to believe that the same Insurance companies trying to kill some small slither of competition and who are making year on year more money in the provate system - in their cosy regional monopolies - and who have been buying off legislators at all levels for years to keep the status quo or change it in favor of their bottom line… are really up for market liberalisation.

From a research paper by professors the KEllogg Management School…

“These costs, all told, have been estimated to be only about 2 percent of healthcare expenses,” says Dafny, an economist and expert in healthcare competition.
Her own research, drawn from various “demonstration projects” already implemented at the state level, indicates that the most common legal reforms would collectively reduce health insurance premiums by 2 percent. This is “real money,” she admits, given that private insurance premiums now top $800 billion, but still no “silver bullet” solution to the overall healthcare crisis.

I have found other news artciles and studys saying much the same thing.
Whole kellogg report below -
Study summary

When Tort reform was introduced in MA the cost benefits were swallowed up in a year by companies seeing they could hike the premiums yet again and not lose subscribers - beacsue - suprise - there was nowhere else for them to go.

If insurance companies dealt with their own inefficiancies they could cut premiums. They don’t want to do that. that would involve taking chunks out of the profits and investing in proper IT systems overall, electronic patient records in particular and streamlined claims practices.

from the national coalition on Healthcare

According to one study, of the $2.1 trillion the U.S. spent on health care in 2006, nearly $650 billion was above what we would expect to spend based on the level of U.S. wealth versus other nations. These additional costs are attributable to $436 billion outpatient care and another $186 billion of spending related to high administrative costs.

400 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 4:36:26am

re: #398 harpsicon

Even if the cost of an MRI could be brought down to “$4”… medical technology is always moving forwards and some new shiny gadget will come along that costs a lot lot more to swallow up any saving on that front.

MEdicaid/Medicare have much lower overheads than private plans - and while some Blue Ribbon private plans are fully comp the collective experience of my many American friends is they have nebver had an easy ride from an insurance company. Even on really small items the Insurance company puts it’s dukes up and fights.
Of my dozen American friends who have dealt with UK & US Syetsm - they choose the UK system, because although it may take a little longer - it costs less, gets

401 Yashmak  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 6:49:28am

All the trouble to come up with 12 values, when just trotting out the Scout Law would’ve been about the same thing.


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Amanda Shires - That’s All (Official Lyric Video)Music video by Amanda Shires performing That's All (Official Lyric Video). (C) 2020 Silver Knife Records marketed and distributed by Thirty Tigers vevo.ly
Thanos
5 days, 20 hours ago
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The KLF - Justified & Ancient (Official Video)The KLF - Justified & Ancient (Official Video) An Atlas AdventureDirected by Bill ButtKLF Communications Listen to Solid State Logik 1: smarturl.it
Thanos
6 days, 9 hours ago
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Freddie Washington 2010 KSBR Bash If you listen to music at all, then you've heard Freddie & probably liked it. He's played or toured with Herbie Hancock, Michael Jackson, Al Jarreau, Aaron Neville, Lionel Richie, Anita Baker, B.B. King, Elton John, Stevie Wonder, Whitney ...
Thanos
1 week ago
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