How are those orders for bunker busters coming along?

"There is no greater mistake than to suppose that platitudes, smooth words, and timid policies offer a path to safety."

WC

Iran is jerking everyone around, as expected. They did it for 6 years with the EU.
The real question is; how long will Obama play their game?
Iran is going to be the greatest test of his presidency. If they explode a nuclear device in a test on his watch, that's what he will be remembered for.

They keep stalling for time because it keeps working.

Stalling in talks with talks
Is stalling for make-believe
Stalling in talks with talks
Is playing the fools

Verifying is such a juvenile fancy
Learning to trust is just
For children in school
Wew started talks one night
When the centrifuge was full
I was unwise with eyes
that didn't debate
and Didn't debate
Stalling in talks with talks
Going on everlasting
But reaping the fallout of U238

Wait a minute... you mean their fists are still clenched?

With China and Russia in their back pocket... the can do pretty much what they want.

re: #5 DaddyG

Stalling in talks with talks
Is stalling for make-believe
Stalling in talks with talks
Is playing the fools

Verifying is such a juvenile fancy
Learning to trust is just
For children in school
Wew started talks one night
When the centrifuge was full
I was unwise with eyes
that didn't debate
and Didn't debate
Stalling in talks with talks
Going on everlasting
But reaping the fallout of U238

This is the tale of Fredrick Worms
Whose parents weren't on speaking terms.
When Freddy wrote to Santa Claus,
He wrote in duplicate, because
One went to Dad and one went to Mum.
Each asked for some plutonium.

Now Freddy's Father and his Mother,
Without consulting one another,
Each bought a lump of rather largish size.
Intending for a surprise,
They met at Freddy's stocking,
Laying waste to 10 square miles of land.

Learn from this tale of nuclear fission:
Don't mix science with superstition.

Diplomatically, we're the equivalent of the Hawaiian shirt clad tourist in the Middle Eastern bazaar, paying full asking price because we don't know how these people bargain.

re: #3 captdiggs

The real question is; how long will Obama play their game?

They have a really deep bench. He should appreciate that, being the hoopster extraordinaire. Doesn't he get the concept of fouling out?

I thought negotiators walked away from their last meeting feeling optimistic? Or was that the meeting before?

It's a shame politicians won't be the only casualties in this affair - they really have made a deadly mess of this.

* to be clear, I am NOT wishing for a bad outcome here to anyone, but that's where the smart money should be.

re: #11 brent
That's the problem with those touchy-feely leftist types. They tend to confuse intentions with results.

re: #3 captdiggs

Iran is jerking everyone around, as expected. They did it for 6 years with the EU.
The real question is; how long will Obama play their game?
Iran is going to be the greatest test of his presidency. If they explode a nuclear device in a test on his watch, that's what he will be remembered for.

I'm wondering how much longer the Iranian people will play their game.

re: #13 tradewind

That's the problem with those touchy-feely leftist types. They tend to confuse intentions with results.

I seem to recall the same with North Korea under Bush...

re: #14 Sharmuta

re: #9 The Sanity Inspector

Diplomatically, we're the equivalent of the Hawaiian shirt clad tourist in the Middle Eastern bazaar, paying full asking price because we don't know how these people bargain.

Soft-hearted liberals don't want us to bargain the way they bargain. And so yes, we'll continue getting screwed as long as we stay at the bazaar.

It wouldn' be so bad if civilization were only at the crossroads, but this is one of those cloverleaf jobs.

re: #14 Sharmuta

I'm wondering how much longer the Iranian people will play their game.

The mullahs and their Revolutionary Guard have the guns. The fraudulent election shows just how much the populace has no control over the fanatics.
In many ways, it's like the mid 1930s nazi Germany. Those opposed to Hitler disappeared.

re: #18 ausador

It wouldn' be so bad if civilization were only at the crossroads, but this is one of those cloverleaf jobs.

I knew we shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque.

It seems once again we've shown up at the chess tournament hoping our checkers will suffice.

Talking sure does a lot of good with those who see diplomacy as a delaying tactic, doesn't it.

I saw this post come up right after I installed Tweetdeck. It even made a little noise. More like a chirp than a tweet. Then I got the Bela Fleck tweet. This could be cool...

The game was over the minute North Korea detonated one and the world blinked. Its been over since then. Iran can and will get nukes just like N.K., Pakistan etc. More to come. Stay Tuned.

re: #14 Sharmuta

I'm wondering how much longer the Iranian people will play their game.

they pretty much have to, or die in droves...they had the tiger by the tail and let go...I think I'd be using all my time and energy to get out rather than martyr myself

re: #21 Gearhead

“It's like playing chess with a monkey,” said one diplomat close to the talks. “You get them to checkmate, and then they swallow the king.”

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

re: #15 Varek Raith

Here's your go-to guy for bloggage on NK's nuke program.

re: #18 ausador

It wouldn' be so bad if civilization were only at the crossroads, but this is one of those cloverleaf jobs.

heh...well put

re: #20 Sharmuta

I knew we shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque.

There's a lolcat for that.

re: #20 Sharmuta

I knew we shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque.

This ain't Pismo Beach!

re: #14 Sharmuta

I'm wondering how much longer the Iranian people will play their game.

Serious question here. Am I mistaken in my belief that the Iranian people are mostly supportive of the nuclear program?

It really does baffle the mind that people who accuse the current administration of being deviously clever, backroom, Chicago-style politicians will also assume that they don't understand how to negotiate. If we look at what's already happened re: Iran, I think we see that the administration has done a pretty good job.
The White House didn't make a big scene when the Election protests were squashed, because you don't interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake. Now there's the deal to export uranium to Russia for processing. I'm pretty sure everyone on the planet knew that Iran would back out of that one, but it was done in such a way that it wouldn't be a drawn out affair (If you're going to fail, fail quickly). Give it one or two more rounds of talks, and then the White House is able to say "We tried everything we could to take care of this diplomatically. Now there are going to be sanctions or possibly worse."
Am I just foolishly optimistic to see a respectable attempt at international negotiations going on?

re: #28 wrenchwench

There's a lolcat for that.

Before the lolcat, there was Bugs.

re: #30 3kids3dogs

Serious question here. Am I mistaken in my belief that the Iranian people are mostly supportive of the nuclear program?

In the absence of freedom of opinion and of the press, it's hard to know.

re: #31 war_eagle

Am I just foolishly optimistic to see a respectable attempt at international negotiations going on?

I'm optimistic like that, but feel foolish about it because there is no track record to look to.

re: #31 war_eagle

It really does baffle the mind that people who accuse the current administration of being deviously clever, backroom, Chicago-style politicians will also assume that they don't understand how to negotiate. If we look at what's already happened re: Iran, I think we see that the administration has done a pretty good job.
The White House didn't make a big scene when the Election protests were squashed, because you don't interrupt your opponent when he's making a mistake. Now there's the deal to export uranium to Russia for processing. I'm pretty sure everyone on the planet knew that Iran would back out of that one, but it was done in such a way that it wouldn't be a drawn out affair (If you're going to fail, fail quickly). Give it one or two more rounds of talks, and then the White House is able to say "We tried everything we could to take care of this diplomatically. Now there are going to be sanctions or possibly worse."
Am I just foolishly optimistic to see a respectable attempt at international negotiations going on?

yes...I think so...we have nothing to leverage the situation with, and BO is too frightened to pull the trigger...sanctions are not going to work...show me an example anywhere in modern history when they did...when you say one or two more rounds of talks, you are simply giving Iran more time

re: #25 Sore Kraut

“It's like playing chess with a monkey,” said one diplomat close to the talks. “You get them to checkmate, and then they swallow the king.”

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Well, better than beating the bishop, I suppose, which is what so much of this whole negotiating thing resembles in effectiveness if not in satisfaction.

Aren't we working on new 30,000 pound stuff?

re: #33 The Sanity Inspector

In the absence of freedom of opinion and of the press, it's hard to know.

Very good point. Although they did make their displeasure with the election results clear to the world. Does anyone know if there has been anything similar regarding the nuke question?

We let the enemy have a whole country as a sanctuary where they can build any weapon, raise any army, hatch any plot.

We. Are. Nuts.

re: #37 Cannadian Club Akbar

Aren't we working on new 30,000 pound stuff?

with little micro nukes in them...connect the dots and presto!...problem solved

re: #35 albusteve

and BO is too frightened to pull the trigger

And where do you see evidence of that exactly? In his "Dithering" over the situation in Afghanistan? Even though it took Bush 3 months to decide to approve the surge, and he had already sent more troops earlier?

re: #41 war_eagle

and he had already sent more troops earlier?

and by "he" I mean Obama had already agreed to send more troops to Afghanistan.

re: #41 war_eagle

And where do you see evidence of that exactly? In his "Dithering" over the situation in Afghanistan? Even though it took Bush 3 months to decide to approve the surge, and he had already sent more troops earlier?

one mention of Bush killed the conversation...go elsewhere

re: #37 Cannadian Club Akbar

We got better than that. Global strike. Say bang anywhere on the globe in 90 minutes os less, with hypersonic super accurate conventional munitions. This is the "must not be fought" part of nuclear strategy. Conventional first strike on early warning of intent.

[Link: www.basicint.org...]

re: #41 war_eagle

And where do you see evidence of that exactly? In his "Dithering" over the situation in Afghanistan? Even though it took Bush 3 months to decide to approve the surge, and he had already sent more troops earlier?

It took Bush three months to fight the progressives who were trying to block the surge... or did you forget?

re: #31 war_eagle

. . . Give it one or two more rounds of talks, and then the White House is able to say "We tried everything we could to take care of this diplomatically. Now there are going to be sanctions or possibly worse."
Am I just foolishly optimistic to see a respectable attempt at international negotiations going on?

Interesting question.
You also say to "give it one or two more rounds of talks". Why one or two?
Why not three or four? At one point can it be assumed that diplomatic negotiations have failed? I suspect we each have our own point at which we would declare failure; what is the administration's?

re: #41 war_eagle

And where do you see evidence of that exactly? In his "Dithering" over the situation in Afghanistan? Even though it took Bush 3 months to decide to approve the surge, and he had already sent more troops earlier?

Who's Bush? When are you going to start taking responsibilities for your own administration?

re: #37 Cannadian Club Akbar

Aren't we working on new 30,000 pound stuff?

Is it possible that we are waiting for that work to be completed?

RNEP - Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator - the last-resort bunker-buster

[Link: www.janes.com...]

re: #46 reine.de.tout

Not sure there is a point short of a nuke in a parade. Or a test detonation.

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

It took Bush three months to fight the progressives who were trying to block the surge... or did you forget?

I am by no means a Barack Obama fan, and I concur there were other issues Bush was facing, I wish I hadn't typed that part about Bush, but that does not change the fact that saying "BO is too frightened to pull the trigger" is baseless.

re: #48 3kids3dogs

Is it possible that we are waiting for that work to be completed?

We had the Stealth fighter for 20 years before we knew about it.

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

It took Bush three months to fight the progressives who were trying to block the surge... or did you forget?

or longer...what a naive remark...and btw, the WaPo got their story wrong on the last 13000 troops that headed to Afghanistan...BO got the credit, but it was requested by Bush...nobody here was interested to know that even after scores of posts about the story

We are out of touch with our inner barbarian, and the iranians are not.

This will start badly for us.

re: #51 war_eagle

I am by no means a Barack Obama fan, and I concur there were other issues Bush was facing, I wish I hadn't typed that part about Bush, but that does not change the fact that saying "BO is too frightened to pull the trigger" is baseless.

do you understand the the BO/Putin/missile defense/Iran gig?...you didn't answer the question about historic sanctions either...so I'm baseless, big whoop, seems you are as well

re: #37 Cannadian Club Akbar

Aren't we working on new 30,000 pound stuff?

I hope this lady is still on the job.

re: #52 Cannadian Club Akbar

We had the Stealth fighter for 20 years before we knew about it.

Fair enough. I just thought from the wording of your comment that you had information that it was still a work in progress. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if we currently had that capability. It's been one of the great advantages of having been such a economic power that we can afford to develop better and better weaponry.

re: #56 The Sanity Inspector

I hope this lady is still on the job.

Ahh yes, Hyperbaric Hannah, as I like to think of her. Thank the Lord for such people, whose accomplishments are measured, like the late Dr. Teller's by the frequency with which their weapons need not be used.

(Great life story, by the way.)

re: #54 Ojoe

We are out of touch with our inner barbarian, and the iranians are not.

This will start badly for us.

So what should we do?

re: #31 war_eagle

H. Clinton isn't known for starry-eyed naivete, so you could be right. "Giving the Iranians more time" also gives us more time; to acquire more intelligence assets and refine what we already know, and get the proper forces in place, including the necessary new weapons (ie 30K MOP) if it comes to that. It is likely that the administration knows far more about the progress of the Iranian program than they are willing to reveal publicly.

Will Zero have the guts to "pull the trigger" as some characterize it? Well, even if he were the most callous and nefarious political operator on the planet, he would still know that he is dead politically if the Iranians end up with an operational nuclear weapon on his watch.

re: #54 Ojoe

We are out of touch with our inner barbarian, and the iranians are not.

This will start badly for us.

As long as it ends more badly for them than us.

re: #56 The Sanity Inspector

I hope this lady is still on the job.

If Greenpeace doesn't like it, me for it.

re: #57 3kids3dogs

Fair enough. I just thought from the wording of your comment that you had information that it was still a work in progress. It certainly wouldn't be surprising if we currently had that capability. It's been one of the great advantages of having been such a economic power that we can afford to develop better and better weaponry.

yeah, like the ferocious F22 that BO canned...gotta buy the Unions first, priorities you know

re: #62 Cannadian Club Akbar

If Greenpeace doesn't like it, me for it.

And FWIW, I was a member of Greenpeace.

re: #59 webevintage

So what should we do?

start learning to eat soup with our fingers?

re: #59 webevintage

The civilized world should take out the crazy mullahs and their bomb program.

Precisely as possible of course.

With as many allies as possible too.

re: #61 3kids3dogs

That will of course be the case.

re: #60 Shiplord Kirel

H. Clinton isn't known for starry-eyed naivete, so you could be right. "Giving the Iranians more time" also gives us more time; to acquire more intelligence assets and refine what we already know, and get the proper forces in place, including the necessary new weapons (ie 30K MOP) if it comes to that. It is likely that the administration knows far more about the progress of the Iranian program than they are willing to reveal publicly.

Will Zero have the guts to "pull the trigger" as some characterize it? Well, even if he were the most callous and nefarious political operator on the planet, he would still know that he is dead politically if the Iranians end up with an operational nuclear weapon on his watch.

I wouldn't bet against our guys on this one. HRC is many things, but "starry-eyed naif" ain't one of 'em. As for BHO, I don't think it comes down to a question of guts - I don't doubt he'd do anything to save and defend us, I just doubt how quickly he'd do it, and whether he'd be ready to take the very great heat from launching a pre-emptive strike in hopes of sparing others the immeasurably greater heat of an Iranian atomic blast.

re: #66 Ojoe

The civilized world should take out the crazy mullahs and their bomb program.

Precisely as possible of course.

With as many allies as possible too.

We need to arm the population.

re: #60 Shiplord Kirel

Iran has been playing Lucy to the US's (and the UN's) Charlie Brown ever since the Carter years
This has nothing to do with the occupant of the White House, as it has happened to conservative republicans, conservative democrats, more liberal republican admins as well as the current admin.

How much "more time" is needed? That ticking you hear may not be a clock, it may be a bomb!

And btw, latest appointment in Dinnerjacket's cabinet is Mohammad Ali Ramin, one of the architects of Holocaust denial movement in Iran.

He also heads the "International Conference on Holocaust".

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

re: #70 sattv4u2

Iran has been playing Lucy to the US's (and the UN's) Charlie Brown ever since the Carter years
This has nothing to do with the occupant of the White House, as it has happened to conservative republicans, conservative democrats, more liberal republican admins as well as the current admin.

How much "more time" is needed? That ticking you hear may not be a clock, it may be a bomb!

I hate when you start making references to the Beatles.

re: #69 Cannadian Club Akbar

We need to arm the population.

Bad idea. Without training and a clear program of action, you'd just end up with dead civilians and a regime intent on revenge. Or, if it should work out, a nice civil war in a missile power who's working on nukes. Bad idea, in general, to foment revolution.

I'm already painting the campaign signs:

Barack O-Bomb_a For president.

re: #55 albusteve

do you understand the the BO/Putin/missile defense/Iran gig?...you didn't answer the question about historic sanctions either...so I'm baseless, big whoop, seems you are as well

I was actually researching the sanctions thing, since I didn't know the answer off of the top of my head, and also I don't think sanctions will work and that military force will be required. However, I found some things searching for successful international sanctions. Here's a link to a paper from the American Political Science Association: [Link: www.allacademic.com...]

I'm not familiar with the group, but a cursory search didn't show them as being a part of either the left or right wing lunatic fringe.

And I'm not sure exactly why you brought up the Eastern European missile defense issue. Again, that was most liely a political move, as it was also a political move to agree to build the defenses in the first place. I don't think you can make a clear case that the administration choosing to not invest there is a sign of weakness or aqcuiessence to the Iranians.

re: #73 Guanxi88

Bad idea. Without training and a clear program of action, you'd just end up with dead civilians and a regime intent on revenge. Or, if it should work out, a nice civil war in a missile power who's working on nukes. Bad idea, in general, to foment revolution.

Neda. Freedom. I hate the UN, but they could help.

re: #39 Ojoe

We let the enemy have a whole country as a sanctuary where they can build any weapon, raise any army, hatch any plot.

We. Are. Nuts.

It's Asia. There is always another sanctuary over the horizon, as Pres Nixon
knew.

re: #60 Shiplord Kirel

H. Clinton isn't known for starry-eyed naivete, so you could be right. "Giving the Iranians more time" also gives us more time; to acquire more intelligence assets and refine what we already know, and get the proper forces in place, including the necessary new weapons (ie 30K MOP) if it comes to that. It is likely that the administration knows far more about the progress of the Iranian program than they are willing to reveal publicly.

Will Zero have the guts to "pull the trigger" as some characterize it? Well, even if he were the most callous and nefarious political operator on the planet, he would still know that he is dead politically if the Iranians end up with an operational nuclear weapon on his watch.

Well said. I know one group that's likely to put pressure on Obama to keep nukes out of the Iranians' hands, and that's the House of Saud. I think for once we be glad if the Sauds get their way.

re: #75 War_Eagle

Here's a link to a paper from the American Political Science Association: [Link: www.allacademic.com...]

I forgot to add that the paper makes an attempt to link sanctions with the removal of Weapons of Mass destruction programs in South Korea, Iraq and Lybia.

re: #50 Rightwingconspirator

Not sure there is a point short of a nuke in a parade. Or a test detonation.

Well, there should be a point before then. The problem is that few will agree on exactly when that point occurs. No matter what a President does, it seems to me . . . he's "right" according to some, and "wrong" according to others.

Myself - I prefer not to see diplomatic negotiations drawn out for too long.

re: #78 Sharmuta

Well said. I know one group that's likely to put pressure on Obama to keep nukes out of the Iranians' hands, and that's the House of Saud. I think for once we be glad if the Sauds get their way.

Although I heard a rumor that the Saudis were trying to buy a nuke from Khan or the NK's... That would only escalate the problem.

re: #66 Ojoe

The civilized world should take out the crazy mullahs and their bomb program.

Precisely as possible of course.

With as many allies as possible too.

That would have been easier to organize before we went after the
Iraqi nukes.

re: #76 Cannadian Club Akbar

Neda. Freedom. I hate the UN, but they could help.

I always look at these kinds of things as being protracted hostage crises on a very large scale. Over time, the hostages might well be united in the desire to be free, but may also have split among themselves as to how to go about it; other in their group might align themselves with their captors. Dropping weaponry into that environment would be dicey at best.

re: #80 reine.de.tout

Even though I was pulling numbers out of my rear-end I see your point in #46. The point I was trying to make was that in negotiations of any sort, you want to put options on the table that will fail quickly if they are going to fail. To your point, the administration has to be wise enough to realize they've given ample time and move to the next option.

re: #78 Sharmuta

Well said. I know one group that's likely to put pressure on Obama to keep nukes out of the Iranians' hands, and that's the House of Saud. I think for once we be glad if the Sauds get their way.

those silly Saudies...always have their best interest in mind, and sometomes it coincides with ours!

re: #83 Guanxi88

I always look at these kinds of things as being protracted hostage crises on a very large scale. Over time, the hostages might well be united in the desire to be free, but may also have split among themselves as to how to go about it; other in their group might align themselves with their captors. Dropping weaponry into that environment would be dicey at best.

Agreed. But let's give 'em hope.

re: #86 Cannadian Club Akbar

Agreed. But let's give 'em hope.

I think the best hope for them is the help that doesn't look like help, the fortuitous accidents that can happen. Special forces have been known to be so effective in their work as to be blamed for what were, after all, merely the natural results of mechanical wear-and-tear, poor sotrage and handling of dangerous equipment, and so forth.

There will be a free Iran in our times.

re: #63 albusteve

yeah, like the ferocious F22 that BO canned...gotta buy the Unions first, priorities you know

I certainly don't feel qualified to discuss the merits of the F22 but to be fair I think there was some support from some quarters of the military for that decision. Wasn't Gates on board?

BO does not have the skills or the balls to negotiate with the Iranians...of the few that could, I John Bolton comes to mind...but he would be too swift, precise and aggressive for the current admin

re: #90 albusteve

BO does not have the skills or the balls to negotiate with the Iranians...of the few that could, I John Bolton comes to mind...but he would be too swift, precise and aggressive for the current admin

What do you think of Bolton's friendship with the Shrieking Harpy? Does that color your view of him? It does mine.

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Michelle Bachman is calling for conservatives to descend on DC next week to stop health care reform. We'll see if Beck gets on board.

(Just to avoid confusion -- I'm quoting from yesterday's open thread :P)

Anyway, looks like Beck is on board:

[Link: www.glennbeck.com...]

GLENN: Michele, God bless you. We'll get the word out and let's have you on a little bit later on this week and we'll continue to have you make the pitch for people going to Washington D.C. noon this Thursday and look them in the whites of their eyes. All right, Michele, thank you very much.

CONGRESSWOMAN BACHMANN: Hey, thank you. If people want more information they can go to MicheleBachmann.com or a link found on your website.

Both Beck and Bachmann use that slightly creepy "whites of their eyes" line in the interview :o.

So on November 5th, will this protest group really be wandering around the Capital Building, going from one Congressional office to the next?

re: #89 3kids3dogs

I certainly don't feel qualified to discuss the merits of the F22 but to be fair I think there was some support from some quarters of the military for that decision. Wasn't Gates on board?

why would I care about Gates?...he works for BO

re: #92 simoom

Hmm, no surprise there. Now let's see how many people they get to actually show up and do it.

re: #91 wrenchwench

What do you think of Bolton's friendship with the Shrieking Harpy? Does that color your view of him? It does mine.

no...if Bolton could intimidate the Iranians, then I don't care who his friends are..otherwise we'd never get anything done

Why Fox news is not considered reliable...
Let's Go To the Videotape! Fox News Blows the Call on NY-23

It doesn't get any more clear than this. They are not reporting accurately . They know it and their viewers know it.

re: #88 Cannadian Club Akbar

There will be a free Iran in our times.

Hell, the Soviet Union collapsed, and the Warsaw Pact is just a fact of history. It can happen.

re: #89 3kids3dogs

I certainly don't feel qualified to discuss the merits of the F22 but to be fair I think there was some support from some quarters of the military for that decision. Wasn't Gates on board?

Yes. Gates was also on board during the Bush administration, as was Donald Rumsfeld before him. Back then, both attempted to halt production of the F22 but were ultimately unsuccessful.

re: #81 charles_martel

Although I heard a rumor that the Saudis were trying to buy a nuke from Khan or the NK's... That would only escalate the problem.

There's more than a few rumors of that going around right now. The Saudis are scared shitless of the Iranians. They fear the Iranians far more than they do the Israelis. Far more.

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Why Fox news is not considered reliable...
Let's Go To the Videotape! Fox News Blows the Call on NY-23

[Video]

It doesn't get any more clear than this. They are not reporting accurately . They know it and their viewers know it.

Wow.
They blew it big time!

re: #92 simoom

Both Beck and Bachmann use that slightly creepy "whites of their eyes" line in the interview :o.

So on November 5th, will this protest group really be wandering around the Capital Building, going from one Congressional office to the next?

Limbaugh said he was contacted about this by Bachmann who said, "I don't know if you know who I am..." She also used the "whites of their eyes" statement with Rush.

re: #99 Honorary Yooper

There's more than a few rumors of that going around right now. The Saudis are scared shitless of the Iranians. They fear the Iranians far more than they do the Israelis. Far more.

Yep, if I were in missile range of Iran, I'd want my own little insurance policy, too.

And as for Saudi Arabia fearing Iran more than Israel - yeah, they do. Israel wouldn't launch a pre-emptive strike, wouldn't nuke for the lulz, and has no designs on their territory or petroleum revenue.

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Hmm, no surprise there. Now let's see how many people they get to actually show up and do it.

Short notice

Washington DC (although close to Baltimore, not a place to take a "day trip" from the larger east coast cities nor the midwest or west coast)

"Crowds" won't be too big considering most DC residents are either gov't workers (who don;t want to be seen protesting) people that live there that are in favor of "free" health care

re: #98 simoom

Yes. Gates was also on board during the Bush administration, as was Donald Rumsfeld before him. Back then, both attempted to halt production of the F22 but were ultimately unsuccessful.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought that was the case with Gates but didn't know that it was also true for Rumsfeld. Do you know why their attempts were unsuccessful before? Was Bush against it and the only difference is that Obama was in agreement?

re: #84 War_Eagle

Even though I was pulling numbers out of my rear-end I see your point in #46. The point I was trying to make was that in negotiations of any sort, you want to put options on the table that will fail quickly if they are going to fail. To your point, the administration has to be wise enough to realize they've given ample time and move to the next option.

Thanks for the response!
As far as whether or not the administration "has to be wise enough" - I hope they are.

re: #100 reine.de.tout

Yeah, that's pretty bad. The first part of the video was so heavily edited that I was really suspicious but it's clear that they reported a false story all day yesterday.

re: #98 simoom

Yes. Gates was also on board during the Bush administration, as was Donald Rumsfeld before him. Back then, both attempted to halt production of the F22 but were ultimately unsuccessful.

yup, sometimes fate twists in favor of the good guys...then sometimes not...getting 300 F22s is no big deal when you consider the feds just spent 3 billion on used cars

re: #103 sattv4u2

Yeah, that's the danger of calling for this sort of action. There's always the possibility that just a handful of nuts shows up.

re: #60 Shiplord Kirel

Will Zero have the guts to "pull the trigger" as some characterize it? Well, even if he were the most callous and nefarious political operator on the planet, he would still know that he is dead politically if the Iranians end up with an operational nuclear weapon on his watch.

He's just way too cool and sophisticated to pull the trigger. And people will keep voting for him because he is so cool and sophisticated.

re: #105 reine.de.tout

As far as whether or not the administration "has to be wise enough" - I hope they are.

I hope our national leaders seek advice from the Rabbi's of Chelm. They couldn't do worse.

re: #109 samsgran1948

He's just way too cool and sophisticated to pull the trigger. And people will keep voting for him because he is so cool and sophisticated.

Didn't North Korea get nukes on Bush's watch?

Didn't the conservatives (rightly) blame Clinton for that?

re: #107 albusteve

yup, sometimes fate twists in favor of the good guys...then sometimes not...getting 300 F22s is no big deal when you consider the feds just spent 3 billion on used cars

I would rather have seen the extra F-22's than the used cars. Probably more jobs at Lockheed-Martin than at GM too.

re: #111 Liberally Conservative

Didn't North Korea get nukes on Bush's watch?

Didn't the conservatives (rightly) blame Clinton for that?

yes and yes...Clinton blew that whole deal badly

re: #54 Ojoe
With numerous nations already having weapons, India detonates a fusion weapon... Forget it.
Non proliferation is a FAIL. Only the Israelis have a record of enforcing nom proliferation,Iraq andd Syria irony at no extra charge.

[Link: www.hinduonnet.com...]

[Link: www.fas.org...]

re: #109 samsgran1948

He's just way too cool and sophisticated to pull the trigger. And people will keep voting for him because he is so cool and sophisticated.

Don't forget smart, he's so much smarter than George Bush too.///

re: #113 albusteve

Ahem-They developed, designed and at least partly built them on Clinton watch. Finished and tested on GWB's watch.

re: #112 soxfan4life

I would rather have seen the extra F-22's than the used cars. Probably more jobs at Lockheed-Martin than at GM too.

considerably...have you heard they are way behind wrecking the clunkers for lack of facilities and smasher operators?...hahaha!...creating jobs!

re: #104 3kids3dogs

Thanks for clarifying. I thought that was the case with Gates but didn't know that it was also true for Rumsfeld. Do you know why their attempts were unsuccessful before? Was Bush against it and the only difference is that Obama was in agreement?

As I recall they didn't manage to overcome push back from Air Force leaders and the military lobby who still supported the F22.

Defense Secretarys seem to be rarely successful when they attempt to kill military weapons systems. An example would be Dick Cheney, who tried many times to end production of the Osprey, back when he was Defense Sec.

re: #108 Killgore Trout

Yeah, that's the danger of calling for this sort of action. There's always the possibility that just a handful of nuts shows up.

Regardless of the numbers that show up to any event, there will always be a handful of "nuts".
I'm sure there will be protesters there that make the headlines, but they aren't the news
I have found the percentage of 'nuts" is usually the constant except for when a far extremist group on either side is actually THE protesters

(Thin KKK or a Code Pink)

re: #116 Rightwingconspirator

Ahem-They developed, designed and at least partly built them on Clinton watch. Finished and tested on GWB's watch.

GWB fucked up...BO fucked up...so?...I don't get the thrust of this blame string...is it a multiple choice question?

re: #78 Sharmuta

Well said. I know one group that's likely to put pressure on Obama to keep nukes out of the Iranians' hands, and that's the House of Saud. I think for once we be glad if the Sauds get their way.

Who do the House of Saud really fear?
.
.
.
.
.
NYMEX!

Do Saudis have the clout to destroy NYMEX?

re: #117 albusteve

considerably...have you heard they are way behind wrecking the clunkers for lack of facilities and smasher operators?...hahaha!...creating jobs!

For all the money spent, I would have rather seen those "clunkers" fixed up by a local mechanic and sold at a discount rate to someone who needs a reliable cheap set of wheels to find a job, or commute to a job or school. Maybe give a little return on the money spent.

re: #107 albusteve

yup, sometimes fate twists in favor of the good guys...then sometimes not...getting 300 F22s is no big deal when you consider the feds just spent 3 billion on used cars

333 F22's=36.7 billion per very reliable link.

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/.../f-22-history.htm

re: #122 soxfan4life

For all the money spent, I would have rather seen those "clunkers" fixed up by a local mechanic and sold at a discount rate to someone who needs a reliable cheap set of wheels to find a job, or commute to a job or school. Maybe give a little return on the money spent.

Unions come first...it's a community organization thing...payola

re: #122 soxfan4life

For all the money spent, I would have rather seen those "clunkers" fixed up by a local mechanic and sold at a discount rate to someone who needs a reliable cheap set of wheels to find a job, or commute to a job or school. Maybe give a little return on the money spent.

Why make sense? This is the gubment.

re: #119 sattv4u2

Regardless of the numbers that show up to any event, there will always be a handful of "nuts".
I'm sure there will be protesters there that make the headlines, but they aren't the news
I have found the percentage of 'nuts" is usually the constant except for when a far extremist group on either side is actually THE protesters

(Thin KKK or a Code Pink)

Are you really trying to compare the racist, bigoted KKK to the cute, fuzzy, bunny-like Code Pink?

re: #122 soxfan4life

For all the money spent, I would have rather seen those "clunkers" fixed up by a local mechanic and sold at a discount rate to someone who needs a reliable cheap set of wheels to find a job, or commute to a job or school. Maybe give a little return on the money spent.

But that would have done nothing to further bury Americans in debt. Gotta keep the folk indebted, both at the national level, and personally.

re: #117 albusteve

Creating jobs, funny how that create or save 3 million jobs has transformed into 640,000. Sooner or later his personal charm won't be able to prop up his weak job performance.

re: #31 war_eagle

Am I just foolishly optimistic to see a respectable attempt at international negotiations going on?

I don't think you're being foolish. I think the administration is making an honest attempt. Will it be effective? Who knows! Maybe it'll turn into a big pile of shit. But I'm also optimistic. I voted for the guy so he could take an approach like this. I'm not a starry eyed YES WE CAN Obama faithful (though I was happy and excited wen he won), I'm someone who wanted a smart and careful guy for the office. I am not 100% convinced we got that guy, but I hope we did.

re: #129 WindUpBird

I don't think you're being foolish. I think the administration is making an honest attempt. Will it be effective? Who knows! Maybe it'll turn into a big pile of shit. But I'm also optimistic. I voted for the guy so he could take an approach like this. I'm not a starry eyed YES WE CAN Obama faithful (though I was happy and excited wen he won), I'm someone who wanted a smart and careful guy for the office. I am not 100% convinced we got that guy, but I hope we did.

How's that hope (and change) working for you?

Trying link again:

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/.../f-22-history.htm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

333 F22's=36.7 billion per very reliable link.

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/.../f-22-h istory.htm

billion, trillion, gazillion, whatever...what's your point?...the cost?...there are a couple of good reasons not to continue to produce the plane, but cost is not one of them...not in this day and age of BO spendathoning

re: #128 soxfan4life

I dunno, took 8 years for it to get this mucked up, don't figure it's going to get fixed in 10 months. See me closer to November next year and then we'll see.

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

How's that hope (and change) working for you?

Don't worry if the promises seem a bit expansive just now. You'll find they ride up with wear. Don't they, Mr. Humphreys?

re: #129 WindUpBird

Let's hope we don't find out from some tragic turn of events, that he isn't what y'all hoped he would be. There is nothing in his past that would lead me to believe he is at all the right man for the job.

re: #135 soxfan4life

Let's hope we don't find out from some tragic turn of events, that he isn't what y'all hoped he would be. There is nothing in his past that would lead me to believe he is at all the right man for the job.

But it's the job he was seeking that's at issue. Was he really seeking to be the leader of the nation during time of domestic and international crises, or just the physical embodiment of a nebulous bunch of aspirations lacking in name and character?

I think he was and is the latter, but ended up being the former.

re: #132 albusteve

billion, trillion, gazillion, whatever...what's your point?...the cost?...there are a couple of good reasons not to continue to produce the plane, but cost is not one of them...not in this day and age of BO spendathoning

I'm not sure DoD has a doctrine for large numbers. Until we face more
technologically adept opponents a better approach is to develop, but
not produce, generations of "unstoppables".

re: #133 PT Barnum

I dunno, took 8 years for it to get this mucked up, don't figure it's going to get fixed in 10 months. See me closer to November next year and then we'll see.

Blaming the past administration will only take him so far, like I said he has a ton of personal charm, but that won't prop up a poor performance in the big chair. Leaders tend to step up right away, maybe say a brief bit about the past, but remark we are moving on today, not ride the excuses like a surfboard on the North Shore of Hawaii.

re: #129 WindUpBird

I don't think you're being foolish. I think the administration is making an honest attempt. Will it be effective? Who knows! Maybe it'll turn into a big pile of shit. But I'm also optimistic. I voted for the guy so he could take an approach like this. I'm not a starry eyed YES WE CAN Obama faithful (though I was happy and excited wen he won), I'm someone who wanted a smart and careful guy for the office. I am not 100% convinced we got that guy, but I hope we did.

well you got 100% burned...BO is not smart or careful

Dangerous rhetoric from Republican leaders...
Apparently The Revolution Will Be Televised

Consider Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY):

I hope this is not the way the majority leader is planning on handling the health care debate because the American people will storm the Capitol if they think the majority is going to dictate to the minority what amendments will be offered on a bill as significant as restructuring one-sixth of the economy.

And Michele Bachmann (R-MN), who is calling for a tea party-like protest in Washington:

Just like that brand new Michael Jackson movie came out, ‘This Is It.’ This is it for freedom. If you believe in liberty, and if you’re rejecting tyranny, this is it. Dr. Mark Levin wrote a seminal book that really swept this country called Liberty and Tyranny. And that’s what this debate is about next week. Liberty and tyranny.

And Virginia Foxx (R-NC):

I believe we have more to fear from the potential of that bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country.

re: #120 albusteve

Just fleshing out the timeline. I think we agree here.

re: #137 Decatur Deb

I'm not sure DoD has a doctrine for large numbers. Until we face more
technologically adept opponents a better approach is to develop, but
not produce, generations of "unstoppables".

good argument, the is some merit to that...but it is already on the books and production costs (while creating good jobs) will only come down...in for a penny, in for a pound

re: #129 WindUpBird

I don't think you're being foolish. I think the administration is making an honest attempt. Will it be effective? Who knows! Maybe it'll turn into a big pile of shit. But I'm also optimistic. I voted for the guy so he could take an approach like this. I'm not a starry eyed YES WE CAN Obama faithful (though I was happy and excited wen he won), I'm someone who wanted a smart and careful guy for the office. I am not 100% convinced we got that guy, but I hope we did.

The diplomacy isn't for Iran, it's for the rest of the world. The goal all along has been to show everyone else that we are capable of trying to iron out our differences with our enemies. The goal was never to get Iran to stop their program. That's been a lost cause for a while now.

re: #141 Rightwingconspirator

Just fleshing out the timeline. I think we agree here.

GWB the beginner was far different from GWB the finisher...very disappointing 2nd admin...imo

I see a Bela Fleck cd is in the sidebar. He's been all over NPR this past month.

re: #142 albusteve

good argument, the is some merit to that...but it is already on the books and production costs (while creating good jobs) will only come down...in for a penny, in for a pound

Yeah, the unit cost on the small runs spreads the R&D over fewer
weapons. The trick is to get the right fleet the Tuesday before
you really need them.

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Dangerous rhetoric from Republican leaders...
Apparently The Revolution Will Be Televised

The "leaders" are competing with the pundits right now for how high they can drive the emotional angst of the base.

Noted to Sharm last night how there is an increase in the militancy of the language being used by the pundits.

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

How's that hope (and change) working for you?

You really think I voted for a campaign slogan? You don't think I followed the guy/s career and the campaign like a laser? You don't think I am 100% as capable as you of coming to a reasoned decision as a moderate Democrat?

/Bugsbunny He don't know me very well, do he!

Maybe someone can help me who's a philosophy major. What logical fallacy is he dropping on me?

re: #140 Killgore Trout

Dangerous rhetoric from Republican leaders...
Apparently The Revolution Will Be Televised

storm the bulwarks!...this stuff means little, or are the ranks of these revolutionaries filled with town hall shouters?...I wouldn't worry too much about it

Dog emergency--BBL.

re: #148 WindUpBird

Maybe someone can help me who's a philosophy major. What logical fallacy is he dropping on me?

It's a rhetorical device, misattribution of causation.

And you didn't answer the question: How's that hope & change working out for you?

re: #147 freetoken

It's just painful to watch this happening. If some nut takes violent action the political fallout is going to be huge. That kind of rhetoric is just so irresponsible and painfully stupid.

re: #147 freetoken

The "leaders" are competing with the pundits right now for how high they can drive the emotional angst of the base.

Noted to Sharm last night how there is an increase in the militancy of the language being used by the pundits.

follow the Pundits!...free the oppressed!...Ron Paul!...(commercial break)

re: #149 albusteve

I think the passage of healthcare reform is going to be a very dangerous time.

re: #154 Killgore Trout

I think the passage of healthcare reform is going to be a very dangerous time.

Irony duly noted.

re: #148 WindUpBird

You really think I voted for a campaign slogan? You don't think I followed the guy/s career and the campaign like a laser? You don't think I am 100% as capable as you of coming to a reasoned decision as a moderate Democrat?

/Bugsbunny He don't know me very well, do he!

Maybe someone can help me who's a philosophy major. What logical fallacy is he dropping on me?

nobody knows you...stick around for a year or two and maybe they will

re: #154 Killgore Trout

I think the passage of healthcare reform is going to be a very dangerous time.

maybe the donks should consider that...and quit calling it health care reform, that's just a catchphrase now...they have been exposed

re: #148 WindUpBird

You really think I voted for a campaign slogan? You don't think I followed the guy/s career and the campaign like a laser? You don't think I am 100% as capable as you of coming to a reasoned decision as a moderate Democrat?

/Bugsbunny He don't know me very well, do he!

Maybe someone can help me who's a philosophy major. What logical fallacy is he dropping on me?

Critical Thinking.

re: #143 JasonA

The diplomacy isn't for Iran, it's for the rest of the world. The goal all along has been to show everyone else that we are capable of trying to iron out our differences with our enemies. The goal was never to get Iran to stop their program. That's been a lost cause for a while now.

I'd like to think that there's at least a possibility that it could be for Iran as well?

"Do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands."
-Éomer (I think)

re: #157 albusteve

maybe the donks should consider that...

Threats of terrorism shouldn't effect the decisions we make as a country. It's not going to stop democracy.

re: #157 albusteve

sorry KT...call it whatever you want

re: #160 Killgore Trout

Threats of terrorism shouldn't effect the decisions we make as a country. It's not going to stop democracy.

storming the Capitol is not terrorism

re: #156 albusteve

nobody knows you...stick around for a year or two and maybe they will

Oh I know. Iceweasel warned me, there's going to be the occasional accusations of puppetry of the footwear and trollery against me for a while, until I prove my mettle. Not that anyone can't click on my nick and find out who I am, but hey. I'm still liking it here, though. I should be around. I needed a political blog that was A) smart, B) sincere, and C) not filled with people I already know who are Very Internet.

Today's short lesson in etymology

Lucubration

re: #159 WindUpBird

I'd like to think that there's at least a possibility that it could be for Iran as well?

"Do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands."
-Éomer (I think)

I don't think so. Especially not after the elections. I just don't see the regime stopping their program at this point. I'd love to see a peaceful solution, but I can't help but see craters in Iran's future.

re: #162 albusteve

storming the Capitol is not terrorism

yeah, but it's probably tresspassing. 8-)

re: #163 WindUpBird

Oh I know. Iceweasel warned me, there's going to be the occasional accusations of puppetry of the footwear and trollery against me for a while, until I prove my mettle. Not that anyone can't click on my nick and find out who I am, but hey. I'm still liking it here, though. I should be around. I needed a political blog that was A) smart, B) sincere, and C) not filled with people I already know who are Very Internet.

Iceweasle?...hahaha!

re: #163 WindUpBird

Oh I know. Iceweasel warned me, there's going to be the occasional accusations of puppetry of the footwear and trollery against me for a while, until I prove my mettle. Not that anyone can't click on my nick and find out who I am, but hey. I'm still liking it here, though. I should be around. I needed a political blog that was A) smart, B) sincere, and C) not filled with people I already know who are Very Internet.

This place is all those things. :)
I think you're doing great, personally.

re: #168 iceweasel

This place is all those things. :)
I think you're doing great, personally.

So do I.

re: #166 WindUpBird

yeah, but it's probably tresspassing. 8-)

heh...good one...it's MY CAPITOL!...STAND ASIDE!

If you read Winston Churchill's book about the years between the world wars of the last century, it is like a litany: Hitler could have been stopped at this point, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again...

And nobody stopped him when it would have been easy, and we paid a huge price.

And I think we are making a similar mistake now with the theocracy in Iran.

OT -

Shameless self-promotion (what's new).

Had to cut the hair (was down to my chest in the front) and color it from blond to dark brown... had to change it for our Xmas show, so... ta ta... refresh... I changed my avatar. Now you are looking at "Louie the Stage Manager" from "It's a Wonderful Life - Staged Radio Version." (mustache coming next by opening).

re: #165 JasonA

I don't think so. Especially not after the elections. I just don't see the regime stopping their program at this point. I'd love to see a peaceful solution, but I can't help but see craters in Iran's future.

I don't know that we'll see craters. I believe Iran is useful to Russia! And I don't see us bombing Things That Russia Likes into something out of the Flintstones. I don't know where this Iran thing will head, honestly. I have opinions about how the administration reacts to situations as they come, but the future? yeegh. Scary and unknowable.

Good evening Lizards!

re: #167 albusteve

I'm typing on my lap on a keyboard I can't see in the dark, give me a break. ;-)

A news story that hasn't gotten much play here:

Illinois Teacher Suspended For Assigning an Article on Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom

Dan Delong, an English teacher at Southwestern High School in Piasa, Illinois has been suspended for allegedly allowing students in his English classes to read an article about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. The article that Delong allegedly had his class read was published in a 2006 edition of “The Gay Animal Kingdom” and is available at [Link: seedmagazine.com...]

Interesting story developing. Ought Delong be suspended, or even fired as some have thought?

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Shameless self-promotion (what's new).

Had to cut the hair (was down to my chest in the front) and color it from blond to dark brown... had to change it for our Xmas show, so... ta ta... refresh... I changed my avatar. Now you are looking at "Louie the Stage Manager" from "It's a Wonderful Life - Staged Radio Version." (mustache coming next by opening).

Looking good!
/possibly as good as those special pictures of you of course...

re: #170 albusteve

heh...good one...it's MY CAPITOL!...STAND ASIDE!

Well, in that case, I want Lieberman's office. I'm moving in and decorating it with black-light posters and a lifesize cardboard standup of Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

re: #177 iceweasel

Looking good!
/possibly as good as those special pictures of you of course...

That was my butt!

re: #178 WindUpBird

Well, in that case, I want Lieberman's office. I'm moving in and decorating it with black-light posters and a lifesize cardboard standup of Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

I have a stand-up Che for sale?

re: #178 WindUpBird

Well, in that case, I want Lieberman's office. I'm moving in and decorating it with black-light posters and a lifesize cardboard standup of Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

close...mine will be adorned with Rolling Stones stuff, with a continuous soundtrack

re: #176 freetoken

A news story that hasn't gotten much play here:

Illinois Teacher Suspended For Assigning an Article on Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom

Interesting story developing. Ought Delong be suspended, or even fired as some have thought?

Only if he would have been suspended for any other article that dealt with animal sexuality.

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

That was my butt!

And a lovely butt it is, baby!

re: #183 iceweasel

And a lovely butt it is, baby!

LIAR!...

just kidding

re: #171 Ojoe

If you read Winston Churchill's book about the years between the world wars of the last century, it is like a litany: Hitler could have been stopped at this point, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again, and Hitler could have been stopped at this point again...

And nobody stopped him when it would have been easy, and we paid a huge price.

And I think we are making a similar mistake now with the theocracy in Iran.

We triumph over past and future evils, but present evils triumph over us.

My proctologist, Dr. Yamomoto, told me I had the worst case of Zachary disease he'd ever seen...

He said "your face look zachary rike your butt!"

re: #182 JasonA

Another blog which has picked up the story, with several comments from people/students who are from that area:

The Gay Animal Kingdom

re: #184 albusteve

LIAR!...

just kidding

You would know! :)

re: #164 Thanos

Today's short lesson in etymology

Lucubration

Sounds dirty.

I'm just glad Bachman and Beck and Palin are out there watching out for my freedoms and ready to storm the Capitol over the option of the public option.
DeathPanels!
FEMA Camps!
Health Care Reform Will Kill You!
/

re: #163 WindUpBird

What's an indie?

re: #186 PT Barnum

My proctologist, Dr. Yamomoto, told me I had the worst case of Zachary disease he'd ever seen...

He said "your face look zachary rike your butt!"

I betcha you're annoying at parties?

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

I have a stand-up Che for sale?

surf the ranks of the far left and you can have a real life one!

re: #191 Naso Tang

It's the exact opposite of an outie..

re: #191 Naso Tang

What's an indie?

a town

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

I'm annoying in general...part of my boyish charm..

I'm waiting for someone to ask why I asked that.

re: #196 PT Barnum

I'm annoying in general...part of my boyish charm..

Hey, you get your own shtik, buddy! The irritating mean drunk thing is all mine!

re: #183 iceweasel

I have a serious question for you that you may have a link for. In debating health care, I have frequently had persons make statement like this... "I have a real problem with a country that lets it's citizens die because they cannot afford...or get., health insurance."

I ask for statistics on these "deaths" and I never get any info back.

Advise (make it good, you only get one chance).

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Shameless self-promotion (what's new).

Had to cut the hair (was down to my chest in the front) and color it from blond to dark brown... had to change it for our Xmas show, so... ta ta... refresh... I changed my avatar. Now you are looking at "Louie the Stage Manager" from "It's a Wonderful Life - Staged Radio Version." (mustache coming next by opening).

Lookin' good, there, Walter!
Youthful.

re: #176 freetoken

A news story that hasn't gotten much play here:

Illinois Teacher Suspended For Assigning an Article on Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom

Interesting story developing. Ought Delong be suspended, or even fired as some have thought?

Sounds like some folks are shocked that animals, too, can *choose* a gay lifestyle. That would give animals free will! And we can't have that...

///

okay...it's true
Walter has a lovely, bipartisan ass...
everyone wants a piece of it, for one reason or another

re: #201 austin_blue

That would give animals free will! And we can't have that...

///

You don't have any cats in the house, do you?

re: #200 reine.de.tout

Lookin' good, there, Walter!
Youthful.

You've been drinking?

re: #202 albusteve

okay...it's true
Walter has a lovely, bipartisan ass...
everyone wants a piece of it, for one reason or another

Ok, double dings for that...

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

try here

or here.

Harvard Medical School seems reasonably credible to me..

re: #148 WindUpBird

You really think I voted for a campaign slogan? You don't think I followed the guy/s career and the campaign like a laser? You don't think I am 100% as capable as you of coming to a reasoned decision as a moderate Democrat?

/Bugsbunny He don't know me very well, do he!

Maybe someone can help me who's a philosophy major. What logical fallacy is he dropping on me?

At least it's only a logical fallacy, if that. We conservatives have the whole mental health field after us.

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Critical Thinking.

/80'steenmovie "Aw, come on!"

Off the top of my head, I liked Obama's platform far more than McCain's, I didn't want to vote for someone who had far-right-wing christian social conservatives to appeal to, I like that he's a professor, non-Southern presidents tend to be more receptive to the issues of the west coast, he was someone closer to my generation (important for tech and emerging science issues like net neutrality, which is as close to my heart as it gets) and not my parent's generation. And also, I loathed Palin. I know, the issue of Palin's candidacy has been picked clean to the marrow, but yow. Couldn't believe he picked her. It was like disrespecting the nation. The McCain campaign was run like a reality show.

You know who McCain could have picked as veep that would have given me pause? Tom Ridge. Not that I'm voting for the VP, but it thought it would have been a respectful pick.

re: #202 albusteve

okay...it's true
Walter has a lovely, bipartisan ass...
everyone wants a piece of it, for one reason or another

Did we really need to know that? Now I can't get images of a multi-party gangbang out of my head...

re: #181 albusteve

close...mine will be adorned with Rolling Stones stuff, with a continuous soundtrack

See, we can always agree on the Stones. Mother's Little Helper and Gimme Shelter are among my favorite songs of all time.

re: #187 freetoken

Another blog which has picked up the story, with several comments from people/students who are from that area:

The Gay Animal Kingdom

I might have to eat crow. First of all, I don't see how that information relates to an English class. Second, the article itself seems a little on the graphic side for high-school students and not-to-subtle in its political slant.

At last count, over 450 different vertebrate species could be beheaded in Saudi Arabia.

I'm very very very pro-gay, but I don't think this was the place for these students to be shown this. The teacher had an agenda, and I don't appreciate that all that much.

re: #208 WindUpBird

/80'steenmovie "Aw, come on!"

Off the top of my head, I liked Obama's platform far more than McCain's, I didn't want to vote for someone who had far-right-wing christian social conservatives to appeal to, I like that he's a professor, non-Southern presidents tend to be more receptive to the issues of the west coast, he was someone closer to my generation (important for tech and emerging science issues like net neutrality, which is as close to my heart as it gets) and not my parent's generation. And also, I loathed Palin. I know, the issue of Palin's candidacy has been picked clean to the marrow, but yow. Couldn't believe he picked her. It was like disrespecting the nation. The McCain campaign was run like a reality show.

You know who McCain could have picked as veep that would have given me pause? Tom Ridge. Not that I'm voting for the VP, but it thought it would have been a respectful pick.

It's a funny thing - among the Dems, I would have preferred HRC. She strikes me as a competent technocrat. She's mobbed up with soe whacky types, but not too terribly so, and she's sufficiently ruthless to ensure that she could get the job done if need be.

With Obama, I was concerned about his green-ness (lack of experience, not enviro policy), his broad appeal to a wide range of lefties of the more "active" stripe, his ability to coalesce an amorphous group of people who did not know what they wanted, and were sure he was it, and the fact that he was so darned young. Sort of the inverse of your criteria, which shows we're all looking for the same types of things, just not the same things.

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

I have a serious question for you that you may have a link for. In debating health care, I have frequently had persons make statement like this... "I have a real problem with a country that lets it's citizens die because they cannot afford...or get., health insurance."

I ask for statistics on these "deaths" and I never get any info back.

Advise (make it good, you only get one chance).

Walter, according to a RAND study:

[Link: www.randcompare.org...]

10% of all premature deaths in the US in 2002 were because of "Medical Care Shortfalls". Not a Liberal think tank, RAND.

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

You've been drinking?

trolling for updings, actually.

re: #211 JasonA

The impression I get (third hand) is that it was part of an exercise on critical thinking. 10th grade English classes it is presumed are a logical place to introduce concepts of rhetoric and argument.

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

I have a serious question for you that you may have a link for. In debating health care, I have frequently had persons make statement like this... "I have a real problem with a country that lets it's citizens die because they cannot afford...or get., health insurance."

I ask for statistics on these "deaths" and I never get any info back.

Advise (make it good, you only get one chance).

[Link: www.boston.com...]

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

The Fact Check one has links to other studies the the Harvard one...

re: #208 WindUpBird

/80'steenmovie "Aw, come on!"

Off the top of my head, I liked Obama's platform far more than McCain's, I didn't want to vote for someone who had far-right-wing christian social conservatives to appeal to, I like that he's a professor, non-Southern presidents tend to be more receptive to the issues of the west coast, he was someone closer to my generation (important for tech and emerging science issues like net neutrality, which is as close to my heart as it gets) and not my parent's generation. And also, I loathed Palin. I know, the issue of Palin's candidacy has been picked clean to the marrow, but yow. Couldn't believe he picked her. It was like disrespecting the nation. The McCain campaign was run like a reality show.

You know who McCain could have picked as veep that would have given me pause? Tom Ridge. Not that I'm voting for the VP, but it thought it would have been a respectful pick.

Well, since you claim you knew his career and his record, than I have to assume that you are in agreement to these following positions... we know he wants socialized health care no matter what he publicly says...

“I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program. I see no reason why the United States of America, the wealthiest country in the history of the world, spending 14 percent of its Gross National Product on health care cannot provide basic health insurance to everybody. And that’s what Jim is talking about when he says everybody in, nobody out. A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.”

You're happy that he made deals with the drug companies...

A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

How many more do you want?

Not willing to ship most of its enriched uranium out of the country. How much is most? Is that like jobs saved or created? It's a misdirection play by the Iranians that the diplomats hoped would buy everyone time; the diplomats hoped the Iranians would take the deal and reduce the amount of enriched uranium on hand; the Iranians see this as giving them still more time to let the centrifuges run.

And run they will. They will keep running all the way to nuclear weapons. It's their end game, and only someone who is completely blind to the possibility will refuse to see this.

re: #203 Guanxi88

You don't have any cats in the house, do you?

One. *I* have no free will.

re: #219 austin_blue

One. *I* have no free will.

I've got two and a wife, so I'm really a non-entity myself.

re: #214 reine.de.tout

trolling for updings, actually.

Ok, you got one from me.

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

Ok, you got one from me.

:-)

re: #211 JasonA

I'm very very very pro-gay, but I don't think this was the place for these students to be shown this. The teacher had an agenda, and I don't appreciate that all that much.

We have been fed about 2% of the facts of this case, through the filter of at least one editorial process. In other words,we haven't a chance at an intelligent opinion. Hope the local schoolboard was rationally elected. One of my daughters teaches English andBio. I think she is smart enough to manage this matter.

re: #207 The Sanity Inspector

At least it's only a logical fallacy, if that. We conservatives have the whole mental health field after us.

I know that sort of stuff was played for yucks, especially during President Bush's term, but as someone who has worked in the mental health field in the past, I think studies like that do a disservice to real clinical issues, real pathology. I know aggressive and dogmatic liberals! They're out there.

re: #172 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Shameless self-promotion (what's new).

Had to cut the hair (was down to my chest in the front) and color it from blond to dark brown... had to change it for our Xmas show, so... ta ta... refresh... I changed my avatar. Now you are looking at "Louie the Stage Manager" from "It's a Wonderful Life - Staged Radio Version." (mustache coming next by opening).

Ixnay on the ustachemay.
/nah, you look fine

re: #224 WindUpBird

I know that sort of stuff was played for yucks, especially during President Bush's term, but as someone who has worked in the mental health field in the past, I think studies like that do a disservice to real clinical issues, real pathology. I know aggressive and dogmatic liberals! They're out there.

Yes, crazy comes in all flavors. Medicalizing opposing viewpoints may be fun at parties, but it's no way to run a debate or a country.

re: #223 Decatur Deb

Please note that the second blog which I linked is by the author of the magazine article whose reading is at the heart of the dispute, and that there are comments at his blog by people/students in that district.

Gimme Shelter

re: #225 The Sanity Inspector

Ixnay on the ustachemay.
/nah, you look fine

Well, if I looked like Miss Piggy's brother, I would think twice about the mustache. And I thought Pekingese were cute?

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

I have a serious question for you that you may have a link for. In debating health care, I have frequently had persons make statement like this... "I have a real problem with a country that lets it's citizens die because they cannot afford...or get., health insurance."

I ask for statistics on these "deaths" and I never get any info back.

Advise (make it good, you only get one chance).

I do have a link. this is from august whereas PT Barnum's second link is newer, from Sept. That link says it's something like 45,000 a year.
The problem is, that specific study seems to use the same methodology as a study from 1993-- and this study, done in August, found some problems with that methodology and came up with a very counterintuitive result:

The most notable difference between the Institute of Medicine's data — which were drawn from the CDC's National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey as well as the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey — is that Kronick adjusted it for a number of demographic and health factors, such as status as a smoker and body mass index. When he did that, "the risk of subsequent mortality is no different for uninsured respondents than for those covered by employer-sponsored group insurance." In other words, once you compare death rates in an apples-to-apples fashion — comparing insured smokers to uninsured smokers, for instance — the likelihood of dying evens out. This, in turn, would mean that IOM's estimate of 18,000 deaths would drop essentially to zero.

[Link: www.politifact.com...]

So one reason why you're not getting any info back or getting conflicting info is because there are disagreements about the proper methodology to use. The Kronick study can't possibly mean that lack of insurance or being underinsured has no effect on mortality-- but as with estimating the number of the uninsured, there are serious problems with gathering the data and what conclusions can be extrapolated from it.

the rand institute link AB provided also looks good to me.

re: #212 Guanxi88

I thought HRC was too tarred and damaged because of Clinton's term to be effective at the time, but now...ehhh, not so sure! Her subtle race-bating during the primaries infuriated me, but I liked the idea that she was extremely intelligent and a real hard-ass. I like that she's part of Obama's cabinet. My father thought she was the Democratic Nixon. And he would have voted for her! Oh, the feelings, they are so very mixed.

re: #215 freetoken

The impression I get (third hand) is that it was part of an exercise on critical thinking. 10th grade English classes it is presumed are a logical place to introduce concepts of rhetoric and argument.

10th grade seems about right in terms of maturity to begin to think about this sort of thing. A controversial subject matter, to be sure, but then again, what isn't?

re: #226 Guanxi88

Yes, crazy comes in all flavors. Medicalizing opposing viewpoints may be fun at parties, but it's no way to run a debate or a country.

I think the Soviets had some experience at it.

re: #231 WindUpBird

I thought HRC was too tarred and damaged because of Clinton's term to be effective at the time, but now...ehhh, not so sure! Her subtle race-bating during the primaries infuriated me, but I liked the idea that she was extremely intelligent and a real hard-ass. I like that she's part of Obama's cabinet. My father thought she was the Democratic Nixon. And he would have voted for her! Oh, the feelings, they are so very mixed.

Putting her in the Cabinet was pure genius. Her ambition and talents have a scope, but she's neutralized as a competitor.

[Link: www.boston.com...]

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

The Fact Check one has links to other studies the the Harvard one...

Thanks to all who gave me this link.

re: #215 freetoken

The impression I get (third hand) is that it was part of an exercise on critical thinking. 10th grade English classes it is presumed are a logical place to introduce concepts of rhetoric and argument.

re: #223 Decatur Deb

We have been fed about 2% of the facts of this case, through the filter of at least one editorial process. In other words,we haven't a chance at an intelligent opinion. Hope the local schoolboard was rationally elected. One of my daughters teaches English andBio. I think she is smart enough to manage this matter.

So these kids would have been around 15 or so? I'm questioning the content of the article because of its sexual nature, not necessarily its homosexual nature. I'm very far from being a prude, but a lot of other people are and I tend to respect that where their kids are concerned. In my business I deal with other people's children a great deal of the time, so I've become very cautious in this area.

I'm not at all calling for any kind of punishment for the teacher. This is completely in the hands of that Board of Ed, and they should know what their school district needs in the case far more than I.

re: #230 iceweasel

right now, I can't think of a stat that would be more politicized...and anyway, how could any reliable numbers be logged?...they can't

re: #216 webevintage

[Link: www.boston.com...]

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

The Fact Check one has links to other studies the the Harvard one...

That FactCheck one is the best single link so far-- it includes links to all the others and mentions the Kronick critical study that my politifact link talks about.

re: #233 Decatur Deb

I think the Soviets had some experience at it.

Which was a fascinating example of ideologically-motivated misuse of medicine. Opposition to the state was de facto evidence of mental illness.

Similar things in China of the bad old days - mental illness, already a taboo subject in Asia, was de facto evidence of opposition to the state. To this day, one meets with diagnoses of neurasthenia in Chinese psychology, but never with depression, a strong indicator of the strength of these prejudices.

re: #226 Guanxi88

Yes, crazy comes in all flavors. Medicalizing opposing viewpoints may be fun at parties, but it's no way to run a debate or a country.

I'm in favor of medicalizing brownies. With chocolate chips.

Seriously, I'm in no way a doctor, but the hippocratic oath is important stuff. I HATE seeing individual medical issues politicized (OH THE SCHIAVO) and I hate medicine being used to demonize ideas. Do no harm should apply to medicine being aimed at craven political ends, or the facade of medicine.

re: #238 iceweasel

That FactCheck one is the best single link so far-- it includes links to all the others and mentions the Kronick critical study that my politifact link talks about.

And it also cannot verify the actual 45 thousand figure.

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

And it also cannot verify the actual 45 thousand figure.

Nope, it can't. There's just huge difficulties in collecting and assessing the data. The 45K is the very top end estimate.

James Taranto's latest missive on Socialized Medicine

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

"Patients who do not get the treatment that they need from the NHS within 18 weeks are to be given the legal right to free private care," reports London's Times:

The Cabinet agreed this week that the legislation, placing maximum waiting times on the statute book for the first time, should be rushed through Parliament before the next election.

Cancer patients, in particular, will receive funding for private treatment if they have not seen an NHS specialist within two weeks of GP referral.
Downing Street says that the two legal rights, which will be unveiled in next month's Queen's Speech, are designed to entrench the dramatic reduction of NHS waiting lists over recent years.

Hmm, so the British medical system has waiting lists. It also has death panels, another Times story suggests:

A father whose son was born with a rare neuromuscular condition will go to the High Court today to try to stop a hospital withdrawing support that keeps the child alive.

Doctors treating the one-year-old boy say that his quality of life is so poor that it would not be in his best interests to keep him alive. They say that they are supported in their action by the baby's mother. The couple are separated.

The child, known for legal reasons as Baby RB, was born with congenital myasthenic syndrome, a muscle condition that severely limits movement and the ability to breathe independently. He has been in hospital since birth.

If the hospital doctors succeed in their application it will be the first time that a British court has gone against the wishes of a parent and ruled that life support can be discontinued or withdrawn from a child who does not have brain damage.

And the Independent, a left-wing London paper, reports that "NHS whistleblowers are routinely gagged in order to cover up dangerous and even dishonest practices that could attract bad publicity and damage a hospital's reputation":

Some local NHS bodies are spending millions of taxpayers' money to pay off and silence whistleblowers with "super gags" to stop them going public with patient safety incidents. Experts warn that patients' lives are being endangered by the use of intimidatory tactics to force out whistleblowers and deter other professionals from coming forward.

On the other hand, according to former Enron adviser Paul Krugman, "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false." That's a relief!

re: #242 iceweasel

Nope, it can't. There's just huge difficulties in collecting and assessing the data. The 45K is the very top end estimate.

While there I noticed this in the sidebar, could be the OOTD to come:
The Obama Phone

re: #224 WindUpBird

I know that sort of stuff was played for yucks, especially during President Bush's term, but as someone who has worked in the mental health field in the past, I think studies like that do a disservice to real clinical issues, real pathology. I know aggressive and dogmatic liberals! They're out there.

Completely agree. It's extremely annoying and offensive to see. It's part and parcel of the way genuine psychiatric concepts get dumbed down and then indiscriminately applied by people with zero actual knowledge: narcissist and sociopath being two words recently misused in this way all the time.

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

I have a serious question for you that you may have a link for. In debating health care, I have frequently had persons make statement like this... "I have a real problem with a country that lets it's citizens die because they cannot afford...or get., health insurance."

I ask for statistics on these "deaths" and I never get any info back.

Advise (make it good, you only get one chance).

I'm a bit of a capitalist mercenary, maybe it says something unconfotable about me that it makes me angrier that people go bankrupt trying to pay for their medical care. Which is probably a far far easier statistic to gather.

I also may have an unhealthy fascination with mortality, based on my record collection and all those Sandman comics on my shelf.

(it's a good question, I remember looking it up for a non-LGF exchange and I got nowhere)

re: #244 Thanos

While there I noticed this in the sidebar, could be the OOTD to come:
The Obama Phone

oh i bet you're right. I think i did see some wingnut headlines fly by this morning about it on my tweetdeck.

re: #236 JasonA

(snip)
I'm not at all calling for any kind of punishment for the teacher. This is completely in the hands of that Board of Ed, and they should know what their school district needs in the case far more than I.

I can see "Teacher of the Year", or a naif with no survival skills, or
a dimwit looking for a martyr's palm. No way to tell from here.

re: #2 lone_wolf_in_illinois

"There is no greater mistake than to suppose that platitudes, smooth words, and timid policies offer a path to safety."

WC

Wang Chung?

re: #249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wang Chung?

Water Closet.

re: #245 iceweasel

It's part and parcel of the way genuine psychiatric concepts get dumbed down and then indiscriminately applied by people with zero actual knowledge: narcissist and sociopath being two words recently misused in this way all the time.

Well, a neurotic like you would say that, wouldn't you?

re: #239 Guanxi88

Which was a fascinating example of ideologically-motivated misuse of medicine. Opposition to the state was de facto evidence of mental illness.

Similar things in China of the bad old days - mental illness, already a taboo subject in Asia, was de facto evidence of opposition to the state. To this day, one meets with diagnoses of neurasthenia in Chinese psychology, but never with depression, a strong indicator of the strength of these prejudices.

The whole topic of ideologically-motivated misuse of medicine is fascinating, going all the way back to the use of phrenology to designate a 'criminal type'. You also see it used to reify gender roles or sexual orientation: the idea that gay people are 'sick', or the use of medicine to control uppity women.
For Her Own Good: Two Centuries of the Experts Advice to Women
or the designation of gay women as 'insane':
Women and Madness
and the nazis of course created a whole architecture of fake science for their ideas:
Racial Hygiene: medicine under the nazis