I registered to vote for the 2008 election. I didn't want to register as a Republican so I filled in the "other" line with Conservative. For whatever reason (perhaps because there was no one running from the Conservative party) my registration came back not with "Conservative" but with what I was at first bothered by but am now grateful for: Independent.

Just as an FYI -

We had this battle in California some years ago. The fiscal conservatives lost to the social conservatives. The democrats have not had to worry about losing control of Sacramento since.

The results are plain for all to see.

Oh - and the SoCons somehow have convinced themselves that California is about to go SoCon red because gay marriage got slapped down in the last election with the help of socially conservative black voters who always vote democrat.

Their reasoning skillz are not strong but their grip on the party is.

All too many GOPers are going to take the wrong lessons from NY-23, particularly if they think that 3d party challenges are going to work outside NY.

NY has a special and favorable election law favoring creation and sustenance of 3d party runs. Other states are far more restrictive in allowing 3d party runs. If the conservatives think that they can send lessons by going to 3d party candidacies, they may find that all they're doing is splitting the vote and handing Democrats wins on pluralities particularly in districts where the GOP should win.

There's also the issue of financial conservatism (ficom) versus social conservatism (socon). Ficoms have more widespread support than socons, but the press is focusing on socons; that has to change and it starts with the local GOP realizing that ficoms need and deserve support - since that is the way that the party can grow at the grassroots and make inroads into the moderate/independent voter base.

I'm no Charlie Crist fan, but if Rubio manages to squeak in in Forida, the GOP will severely regret it - either through a Dem victory in the general election (still a longshot) or the loss of a moderating voice, and a push further to the looney-bin right.

And this could have an effect on the Democrats.

Blue Dog says Dem losses would strengthen centrists' position

Centrist Blue Dog Democrats might see their position strengthened if Democrats suffer broader electoral losses, one Blue Dog member suggested Tuesday.

Rep. Jason Altmire (D-Pa.) argued that an election night rebuke for Democratic candidates across the nation could lead some in the party to rethink their plans on healthcare reform and other issues.

"It looks as though the anger that has been boiling up the last couple of months is going to lead to a pretty high turnout from Republicans and from people who are concerned about increased spending," Altmire said Monday evening during an appearance on Fox Business Network.

"And I do think that if the results show Republicans have a pretty good night, that probably is going to lead some Democrats to think that, going into next year, we need to take a second look at the way that we've done a lot of bills we've addressed up to this point," the Pennsylvania congressman added.

Both parties are becoming divided. Could we see a centrist party soon?

Remember that it was the Religious Right that threatened to withdraw support for John McCain because he was "too moderate" for their ideologies.

I believe that is one reason he was compelled to take on Sarah Palin, and we know what happened as a result. Now we know why she retired from the Alaska governorship: so she could be the Bull Moose that clears the way for their asendancy.

Do the purists really think that they are the majority of the American voting public?
Or do they not care if most voters are turned off by them (on either side)?

I think "conservative" is a fine appellation to put on these people. It may wake up the rest of the real conservatives who think that this is good for the party. Then again, maybe it won't.

Call them conservatives.

re: #3 lawhawk

There's also the issue of financial conservatism (ficom) versus social conservatism (socon). Ficoms have more widespread support than socons, but the press is focusing on socons; that has to change and it starts with the local GOP realizing that ficoms need and deserve support - since that is the way that the party can grow at the grassroots and make inroads into the moderate/independent voter base.

I'm starting to become increasingly wary of what is considered "fiscal conservatism" these days is actually unrealistic Paulian "fiscal populism".

From my POV the same crowd already lost us the 2008 presidential election. 2005- mid 2008 they poured so much bile on McCain that he really didn't have a shot, forcing Palin on him was the deathblow.

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I'm starting to become increasingly wary of what is considered "fiscal conservatism" these days is actually unrealistic Paulian "fiscal populism".

Yep, that Norquist / Toomey orgs are just SoCon cloaking devices.

re: #2 karmic_inquisitor

Just as an FYI -

We had this battle in California some years ago. The fiscal conservatives lost to the social conservatives. The democrats have not had to worry about losing control of Sacramento since.

The results are plain for all to see.

Oh - and the SoCons somehow have convinced themselves that California is about to go SoCon red because gay marriage got slapped down in the last election with the help of socially conservative black voters who always vote democrat.

Their reasoning skillz are not strong but their grip on the party is.

Support for gay marriage grows about a percent in the polls annually. Things are not actually going the socons way, no matter how much they hope.

Fiscal conservatism, applied as common sense rather than pouty hysterics, could go far in California. Used to. We shall see.

It’s kind of like investors in a company saying they’re not going to tolerate it anymore. And that’s what we’re seeing here,” said Eric Odom, executive director of the American Liberty Alliance...

It's as if disgruntled investors in the Ford Motor Company rallied to take control of the company - so that it would retool all of its plants to make only SUV's and large trucks. And also buy out GM's Hummer division.

These people are delusional.

Party strategists worry that well-funded, well-organized challenges from the right could force Republicans to exhaust precious resources on messy primary fights — or force moderate candidates to adopt more strident positions early on that could haunt them during the final months of the campaign.

“For me, what this says is, we need to take a deep breath and decide whether [moderates and conservatives] work together or not,” said Tom Davis, the former chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee. “And if we don’t, it can get very, very ugly.”

If the Socon/Bircher/Whirled Nuts own the party in 2010 then I am out, I'll stay and fight until then.

re: #9 Killgore Trout

The fisccons stand apart. Sure there is some overlap from socon to fisccon, but the other way? Not So Much. Social moderate Fisc cons abound here in Ca. Comes with the state deficit, cuts and a tax increase hitting this very week.

re: #14 Thanos

If the Socon/Bircher/Whirled Nuts own the party in 2010 then I am out, I'll stay and fight until then.

Were are you headed?

re: #16 Walter L. Newton

Were are you headed?

WHERE (damn)

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

Support for gay marriage grows about a percent in the polls annually. Things are not actually going the socons way, no matter how much they hope.

My son is 17 and most of his friends are in the 16-19 year age range with a few older gamers online...and some dudes from Canada.

What I have found from opinions passed on to me by The Teen when I ask is while they may call each other "gay" in the way guys do (which annoys the hell out of me) they don't actually care if someone is gay.
They don't even understand why older people care, they don't care who gets married to who. They think the arguments are a waste of time and energy.
It is just not an issue they see as being important in the big picture and to a man say if gays want to get married they should be able too.
Same with DADT.
Of course some of these guys may become more conservative as they get older, but most will still feel the same and this next generation will be moving past these old arguments in the next 5-10 years and will look at the "old ways" as nuts.

re: #16 Walter L. Newton

Were are you headed?

I'll register as a D. I will work from within, at least they think their is a future as misbegotten as some of their ideas are.

/pimf "there"

I think the problem in the GOP is the fisc-cons are just as unable to market themselves as the rest of the factions in the party- except ron paul. ron paul is the only one with any marketing ability, and that's the last message we want getting mainstreamed. We need some savvy fisc-cons - Goldwater conservatives - to step up and soon.

Here in Kentucky militias are on the rise. Economy, Obama Administration help fuel Kentucky's militias' resurgance.

re: #21 Sharmuta

Indeed. The problem is that fiscal responsibility is boring to most, and they lose a lot of their audience with reasoned, well-thought out discussions and debate. I am afraid that too many want entertainment rather than information. The radical right will draw votes away from the reasonable right for some time to come, thus ensuring that the left will continue to dominate.

re: #22 KenJen

Try again Jen . Works now.

Jonah Goldbergs take on this
[Link: www.latimes.com...]

Or The LA Times Janet Hook
[Link: www.latimes.com...]
Three different views I am pondering this morning.

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #18 webevintage

Nate Silver posted some numbers about this trend and he made some projections about when we can expect gay marriage in more and eventually all states. I think he is too cautious about it, though. You can find them on [Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com...] under gay rights.

Socon this!

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Can't help noticing that Jonah Goldberg won't even touch the biggest elephant in his room: the dominance of the religious right and social conservatives. His article doesn't even mention their two primary motivations - abortion and same-sex marriage.

re: #27 ralphieboy

Socon this!

Careful Ralphieboy... you gonna shoot your eye out... leave it alone.

re: #25 Rightwingconspirator

Jonah Goldbergs take on this
[Link: www.latimes.com...]

Or The LA Times Janet Hook
[Link: www.latimes.com...]
Three different views I am pondering this morning.

I'm not a Goldberg fan. This kind of disconnect is why:

In short, conservatives have had to not only put up with a lot of moderation and ideological flexibility, we've had to endure nearly a decade of taunting from gargoyles insisting that the GOP is run by crazed radicals.

Pssst, Jonah, the complaining about the sources of money and influence within the GOP is not just coming from the left these days. It's coming from those that are being chased out of the party.

OT: there's some kind of new spam that's getting through all my spam filters lately - Spam Assassin on the server and Spam Sieve on my Mac. I've been inundated with garbage email for the past couple of weeks, ending up in my Inbox instead of my Spam folder. Has anyone else seen this, and do you have any solutions for it?

re: #18 webevintage

My son is 17 and most of his friends are in the 16-19 year age range with a few older gamers online...and some dudes from Canada.

What I have found from opinions passed on to me by The Teen when I ask is while they may call each other "gay" in the way guys do (which annoys the hell out of me) they don't actually care if someone is gay.
They don't even understand why older people care, they don't care who gets married to who. They think the arguments are a waste of time and energy.
It is just not an issue they see as being important in the big picture and to a man say if gays want to get married they should be able too.
Same with DADT.
Of course some of these guys may become more conservative as they get older, but most will still feel the same and this next generation will be moving past these old arguments in the next 5-10 years and will look at the "old ways" as nuts.

I see this too. My students may call each other 'fags' as an insult, and make juvenile jokes about gay men, but on another level, they figure that someone's love life is their own business. Two dudes want to get married, why should they worry about it? Most of them have gay friends or relatives.

A few years ago, a student of mine announced "I'm a Christian, and I'm against people being gay because it says in the Bible you shouldn't be, but not everyone follows the Bible. If you're going to be like that, I think you should be able to get married."

The future.

re: #28 Charles

Since he is a partisan, he'll ignore the warts on his fingers all day long. Utterly unwilling to clean his own house, all about everywhere else first.

re: #31 Charles

OT: there's some kind of new spam that's getting through all my spam filters lately - Spam Assassin on the server and Spam Sieve on my Mac. I've been inundated with garbage email for the past couple of weeks, ending up in my Inbox instead of my Spam folder. Has anyone else seen this, and do you have any solutions for it?

Is it Mary Yee offering offshore web design at $6/hr?

re: #7 webevintage

Do the purists really think that they are the majority of the American voting public?
Or do they not care if most voters are turned off by them (on either side)?

Both.

re: #31 Charles

Yes I have had this, no solution yet apart from going "friend/contact list only" for the inbox. Mine is strangely spelled porn headers.

re: #5 NJDhockeyfan

I think that the far left may get upset (indeed, they are lamenting this factor on Kos.) I think that the issue here is that the Dems ALWAYS have had a problem with getting people to agree, so they can handle dissent better. They may bitch and moan about the Blue Dogs, but they'll work with them. That's why so many on the left hate Reid.

re: #19 Thanos

I'm registered as a D...I live in PA, which is traditionally a blue state, and it has a closed primary. I want to have as much influence as possible in the primaries.

No new Spam here; just the usual whirled nuts and townhall spammers.

I think a lot of you folks here are whistling past the graveyard.
Call us names if you like, the "moderate" Republicans scotched the last election, we won't get fooled again.

re: #31 Charles

OT: there's some kind of new spam that's getting through all my spam filters lately - Spam Assassin on the server and Spam Sieve on my Mac. I've been inundated with garbage email for the past couple of weeks, ending up in my Inbox instead of my Spam folder. Has anyone else seen this, and do you have any solutions for it?

hotmail is no more & no less spam friendly than normal, on my end.

re: #28 Charles

Abortion and same-sex marriage are two no-retreat issues with the radical right. Another elephant in the bedroom is the religious component of the extreme right. Anyone who does not hold the radical right position on these three issues completely in lockstep with the right-wing agenda is labeled a RINO and is rejected and exiled.
Of course this goes against much of what most moderate conservatives stand for.

re: #31 Charles

I've noticed all kinds of spam coming through Yahoo and Google's mail filters too. I guess the spamfighters have to update their coding to deal with the latest scourge of viagra/cialis touting spam.

I can't wait to read tomorrow's talking heads blather about how "Obama is in trouble" because Hoffman didn't lose in a solidly conservative district. Great news for teabaggers! I hope they start to primary every moderate Republican in the entire country.

re: #31 Charles

Kaspersky destroys them for me. I haven't had any problems.

Regarding the militia link:

“We're not out to start a war,” Terrell said, although he added, “it may be forced on us if lines are crossed,” through “gun confiscations, forced inoculations and the rounding up of dissidents.”

Antivaxxer sentiment along with black helicopter theory.
Yeah, these goobers have good direction for the future direction of the Republican party and the country, we better pay attention.

//

re: #44 drcordell

If Christie wins in NJ, those headlines would be right, regardless of what happens in NY-23. If Hoffman wins (and that seems likely), it goes to who was on the ballot in NY-23 and that people just didn't connect with Owens.

In NJ, Corzine is a stand-in for Obama (or is it the other way around based on how many times Obama has been here to boost Corzine and how Obama's people are running his campaign).

And NJ provides a slightly different tale on the socon/GOP/moderate RINO schism.

Here in NJ, it hasn't happened - all the bigwigs, including Palin, Gingrich, Jindal, Rudy, etc. have backed Christie. So did Lonegan, who ran against Christie in the primaries. That's more evidence that I think the dynamics of NY-23 are unique to the situation, and don't have the kind of consequences that other pundits are making it out to be.

re: #42 StillAMarine

Abortion and same-sex marriage are two no-retreat issues with the radical right. Another elephant in the bedroom is the religious component of the extreme right. Anyone who does not hold the radical right position on these three issues completely in lockstep with the right-wing agenda is labeled a RINO and is rejected and exiled.
Of course this goes against much of what most moderate conservatives stand for.

They are not the only litmus tests anymore. The Religious right socons have made a devil's pact with the Bircher/Nativist/NWO crowd so they now have two sets of litmus tests. Woe to anyone who doesn't pass all 20 tests and know the loyalty handshake.

re: #10 Thanos

From my POV the same crowd already lost us the 2008 presidential election. 2005- mid 2008 they poured so much bile on McCain that he really didn't have a shot, forcing Palin on him was the deathblow.

I can see 2012 fail from my house!

re: #19 Thanos

I'll register as a D. I will work from within, at least they think their is a future as misbegotten as some of their ideas are.

Welcome, comrade. Would you like the Trotsky Suite, or something a
little more menshevik?

The article doesn't mention another tea party congressional candidate, Kokesh in NM. Obviously not considered "key" enough.

In almost every situation, the lay of the land is the same. Whether it’s California, Illinois, Connecticut, New Hampshire or Kentucky, the NRSC has found a candidate who appears to be an exceptionally strong general election prospect — either well-known, well-financed or ideologically well-suited to the state’s politics — who is nevertheless meeting with tough resistance at the grass-roots level from activists who believe the conservative cause would be better served over the long term, even if it means the party nominee loses in the short term.

If they bet wrong, the Repubs sink further. If they bet right, the Repubs will be so conservative, they'll sink anyway, if not in 2010, then certainly in 2012.

re: #31 Charles

I have found that hardware solutions are really the way to go, at least from my experience.

We use Barracuda products for spam. Works really well. Worth the price.

We use the built in services with the E-class Sonicwall series of routers for everything else, but I think the same features are available with the NSA series. Love the Sonicwall stuff. A bit pricey, but not nearly as much as Cisco equivalents and much much easier to manage. Excellent customer support too.

re: #47 lawhawk

If Christie wins in NJ, those headlines would be right, regardless of what happens in NY-23. If Hoffman wins (and that seems likely), it goes to who was on the ballot in NY-23 and that people just didn't connect with Owens.

In NJ, Corzine is a stand-in for Obama (or is it the other way around based on how many times Obama has been here to boost Corzine and how Obama's people are running his campaign).

And NJ provides a slightly different tale on the socon/GOP/moderate RINO schism.

Here in NJ, it hasn't happened - all the bigwigs, including Palin, Gingrich, Jindal, Rudy, etc. have backed Christie. So did Lonegan, who ran against Christie in the primaries. That's more evidence that I think the dynamics of NY-23 are unique to the situation, and don't have the kind of consequences that other pundits are making it out to be.

Off-cycle gubernatorial elections are not a referendum on the President.

The correlation between gubernatorial elections and elections to the House, Senate and Presidency has been very weak, at least recently. In fact, if you compare the share of the vote that the Democratic candidate got in the most recent gubernatorial election in each state to the share that Barack Obama got last November, it is almost literally zero:

Your text to link...

The "GOP" is becoming in the minds of many outside of it, "God's Own Party" and if you ask me, that mean's the party is effectively over.

Someone else can post something about some other possible replacement party.

re: #46 Thanos

The gay marriage issue coupled with a horrific economy (no freakin job growth)
will always fire up the extremists. Hence the saying "no nation is more than 3 meals from a revolution". Not that its that bad but it points to the process.

The gay marriage debate may have upset the compromises post roe v wade.

re: #51 wrenchwench

If they bet wrong, the Repubs sink further. If they bet right, the Repubs will be so conservative, they'll sink anyway, if not in 2010, then certainly in 2012.

Unless the economy picks up considerably, the GOP is going to make measurable gains next year. That is just how midterms work. The real damage of a Hoffman victory today will come in 2012.

OT - Obama: Crowley 'Outstanding Officer,' 'Good Man'

re: #40 OpenTheDoor

I think a lot of you folks here are whistling past the graveyard.
Call us names if you like, the "moderate" Republicans scotched the last election, we won't get fooled again.

[Video]

Well, I sure as hell not fooled by SoCons who are as fiscally responsible as a drunk Dem. Or think it's 'conservative' for the Feds to dictate what goes on in the privacy of our bedrooms.
/Hunt us RINOs at your own peril. ;)

Modern Whig Party Video.

Stay centered.

re: #56 bratwurst

Unless the economy picks up considerably, the GOP is going to make measurable gains next year. That is just how midterms work. The real damage of a Hoffman victory today will come in 2012.

Maybe we should talk about it tomorrow, after we see what happens in today's elections, but I would hesitate to apply the "conventional wisdom" about how midterms work.

re: #40 OpenTheDoor

I think a lot of you folks here are whistling past the graveyard.
Call us names if you like, the "moderate" Republicans scotched the last election, we won't get fooled again.

[Video]

Please do your best to not yourself banned from lgf. I'd hate to see this prophecy lost.

Why do I get the feeling that the Republican party is about to implode upon itself, and it can only blame itself for it?

re: #54 Ojoe

mean's = means

PIMF

re: #61 bosforus

Please do your best to not yourself banned from lgf. I'd hate to see this prophecy lost.

...to not get yourself...
pimf

re: #57 abolitionist

I see now that the story is not so recent. (July) Sorry.

re: #40 OpenTheDoor

I think a lot of you folks here are whistling past the graveyard.
Call us names if you like, the "moderate" Republicans scotched the last election, we won't get fooled again.

Actually, you lost by a fairly reasonable margin. It would have been much
the same, no matter who had run, coming off the Pres. GWB years.

These points from Goldberg show why I shudder when Bush43 is referred to as a conservative.

With the prescription drug benefit, he created the biggest new entitlement since the Great Society (Obama is poised to topple that record). He increased spending on the National Institutes of Health by 36% and international aid by 74%, according to Heritage. He oversaw the largest, most porktacular farm bills ever. He signed the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, a massive new regulation of Wall Street. His administration defended affirmative action before the Supreme Court. He pushed amnesty for immigrants, raised steel tariffs, supported Title IX and signed the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform legislation.

Finally got back in. Something on the page is preventing IE6 from allowing LGF to load.

Whoops, looks like some mischief afoot in NY-23:

I just got off the phone with former state Democratic Chairwoman June O'Neill, who informed me the police had been called to at least two polling sites in St. Lawrence County due to overzealous electioneering (O'Neill called it "voter intimidation") by Doug Hoffman supporters.

"We've gotten reports that people are standing there, covered with Hoffman stickers and yelling anti-choice stuff at voters," said O'Neill, a St. Lawrence native who has been running the party's GOTV effort for Bill Owens in NY-23.

"Apparently, there's some woman claiming to be a commissioner," O'Neill continued. "Commissioner of what, I don't know. She's from Texas, I think, and she won't leave."

Read more: [Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

Link here

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Finally got back in. Something on the page is preventing IE6 from allowing LGF to load.

IE6 is preventing IE6 from loading LGF
/:)...maybe not :P

re: #59 Ojoe

Modern Whig Party Video.

Stay centered.

Are you sure you're not Cato?

The Socons are going to see today's wins as a mandate to make ther move and commandder the party, purging all but those who meet their standards. it will even bear fruit in 2010, but I predict it will fall flat on its face by 2012.

Unless they are "compelled" to take extreme measures...

re: #53 drcordell

Nate's analysis completely ignores the fact that Obama has put so much at stake in NJ. His analysis completely ignores and discounts the links between Obama and Corzine - as stated by both Obama and Corzine.

You don't make multiple trips to NJ to boost your guy, use your people to run Corzine's campaign, consistently link yourself to Obama, claim that Corzine is your partner, and then claim that it isn't a referendum on Obama's performance.

Corzine, who has been deeply unpopular in polls, has sought throughout the campaign to link himself and his administration to Obama. Aides at yesterday's event wore black T-shirts reading "Yes We Can 2.0," reprising the slogan that Obama rode to the White House.

"About a year ago, New Jersey went to the polls like everybody in America and said, 'Yes we can' . . . Above all, we said yes to a governing philosophy that says we're all in this together" and rejected Republican philosophies, Corzine said.

It goes to Obama's coattails, and his ability to pull Corzine's bacon out of the fire; Obama has eschewed doing anything similar for the VA Democrat, but here he is in NJ on multiple occasions. That too is ignored by Silver's analysis.

re: #69 abbyadams

Whoops, looks like some mischief afoot in NY-23:

Link here

They're just making things fair by turning Acorn's tactics back on them.

///

Meh. Don't see this as all that big a deal either way. Given the trends in political behaviour over the last twenty or thirty years, some kind of major shake-up of our two main parties is not only inevitable, but almost certainly necessary. The Dems have been captured by their loony left and will likely split between that wing and their moderate wing, while the Reps are in the process of being captured by their loony right and will probably split between hardcore conservatives and moderates.

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Finally got back in. Something on the page is preventing IE6 from allowing LGF to load.

Yikes. Not again. Could be the retweet code. Will check.

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

I'm not Cato.

I'm Finvarra.

/

re: #70 Varek Raith

IE6 is preventing IE6 from loading LGF
/:)...maybe not :P

Nah, works fine every where. I try to look at LGF with it, pages starts to load, then pops up the "Operation aborted" warning and goes to page failed to load, server may be down screen.

re: #76 Charles

Yikes. Not again. Could be the retweet code. Will check.

If it helps, LGF loads just fine in IE8.

re: #72 ralphieboy

The Socons are going to see today's wins as a mandate to make ther move and commandder the party, purging all but those who meet their standards. it will even bear fruit in 2010, but I predict it will fall flat on its face by 2012.

Unless they are "compelled" to take extreme measures...

I hate to see the party of Lincoln become the party of Palin. What a tragedy.

Thanks for the article - I found this passage illuminating with regards to motivation:

Everett Wilkinson, an organizer for the Florida Tea Party Patriots, said his group plans to take part in get-out-the-vote activities and other efforts to deny Crist the GOP nomination, despite the fact that Crist leads both Rubio and Rep. Kendrick Meek, the likely Democratic nominee, by a comfortable margin.

To Wilkinson, he’d rather burn the house down if it means saving it.

Social conservatism absolutely drives some voters, but it's hard to really take stock of the sheer amount of crazy in some partisan circles. When someone who's pro-life tells you they don't believe the President has a birth certificate and that swine-flu was made by the government (yes, I know several people like this personally), I don't focus so much on the "pro-life" as being a problem as much as the willing embrace of conspiracy theory. I think people willing to embrace conspiracy theory will claim contrarian values depending on what the fear of the moment is: it's no shock to me the far Right and far Left are converging in regards to their insane ideas (i.e. Bush and Obama are the same, etc.).

re: #72 ralphieboy

The Socons are going to see today's wins as a mandate to make ther move and commandder the party, purging all but those who meet their standards. it will even bear fruit in 2010, but I predict it will fall flat on its face by 2012.

Unless they are "compelled" to take extreme measures...

You sound like you are hoping they do?

re: #73 lawhawk

Nate's analysis completely ignores the fact that Obama has put so much at stake in NJ. His analysis completely ignores and discounts the links between Obama and Corzine - as stated by both Obama and Corzine.

You don't make multiple trips to NJ to boost your guy, use your people to run Corzine's campaign, consistently link yourself to Obama, claim that Corzine is your partner, and then claim that it isn't a referendum on Obama's performance.

It goes to Obama's coattails, and his ability to pull Corzine's bacon out of the fire; Obama has eschewed doing anything similar for the VA Democrat, but here he is in NJ on multiple occasions. That too is ignored by Silver's analysis.

Campaign appearances alone do not mean their electoral fates are somehow inexorably linked. Of course Obama is going to make some fundraising stops, it's part of the gig. If Corzine loses it's because of his weakness as a Governor, not Obama's weakness as President. I personally know several friends who live in NJ and support Obama, yet will not bring themselves to vote for Corzine because of how he has fared in his first term.

re: #80 Baier

The Whigs were the party of Lincoln also.
Modern Whig Party.

re: #83 drcordell

Campaign appearances alone do not mean their electoral fates are somehow inexorably linked. Of course Obama is going to make some fundraising stops, it's part of the gig. If Corzine loses it's because of his weakness as a Governor, not Obama's weakness as President. I personally know several friends who live in NJ and support Obama, yet will not bring themselves to vote for Corzine because of how he has fared in his first term.

Then why would Obama even show up if Corzine is going to win or loose it on his own.

We're not that stupid. But you go ahead and believe that, it makes it easier to ignore you.

...and guarantee the reelection of Barack Obama with their extreme rhetoric and agenda

I personally think that's vastly overstated, but I suppose it remains to be seen. For that matter, it remains to be seen whether what a lot of you consider the "far right" will emerge victorious from even today's election, let alone in 2010 or 2012.

re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nah, works fine every where. I try to look at LGF with it, pages starts to load, then pops up the "Operation aborted" warning and goes to page failed to load, server may be down screen.

It was the retweet code, all right. Oddly, when I switched to the uncompressed (un-minified) version, it started working.

Can you confirm that it's working for you now too, by reloading the page in IE6?

Question from someone who has not a real overview over the GOP: whom do you consider a decent Republican, who could challenge Obama in 2012?

Police Called To NY-23 Polling Sites

"We've gotten reports that people are standing there, covered with Hoffman stickers and yelling anti-choice stuff at voters," said O'Neill, a St. Lawrence native who has been running the party's GOTV effort for Bill Owens in NY-23.

"Apparently, there's some woman claiming to be a commissioner," O'Neill continued. "Commissioner of what, I don't know. She's from Texas, I think, and she won't leave."

Uh, never mind. Now I'm getting the 'operation aborted' message again.

I'll try some other things.

re: #88 gegenkritik

Zell Miller.

only sort of kidding

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Police Called To NY-23 Polling Sites

Those "commissioners", wherever they're from, always think they're Important People.

I worked once for a "commissioner" here, and he tried to get out of a speeding ticket in Colorado by telling the cop, "Do you know who I am? I'm the Commissioner of --- in Louisiana!".

re: #91 Ojoe

Zell Miller.

only sort of kidding

Ok... who would the Modern Whigs back?

re: #75 Lanzman

The Dems have been captured by their loony left and will likely split between that wing and their moderate wing, while the Reps are in the process of being captured by their loony right and will probably split between hardcore conservatives and moderates.

Um, that sounds like some wishful thinking on the GOP's part. The Dems have not been captured by the loony left, and are not in for a split any time soon. They're simply in power and flexing their atrophied muscles - they've got to retrain them & remember how they work.

re: #84 Ojoe

The party he left...

OT: Is there a particular reason why people are using IE 6? I wouldn't insist everyone use Firefox (my favorite browser), Safari or Opera, but I'm just wondering why not a more recent version of IE.

re: #96 akarra

6 lasted about a minute on my office systems. Would not deploy well, not run well. We flipped back to FF for everything except Fedex online shipping-IE8 for that.

re: #96 akarra

OT: Is there a particular reason why people are using IE 6? I wouldn't insist everyone use Firefox (my favorite browser), Safari or Opera, but I'm just wondering why not a more recent version of IE.

Businesses use IE6 and are usually slow to upgrade. Not that I've EVER posted from work...

re: #91 Ojoe

Zell Miller.

only sort of kidding

Never heard of him. But what Google says about him, is not excactly what I had in mind when asking for a decent politician. :)

re: #83 drcordell

It's more than the campaign appearances; Obama's people are running Corzine's campaign.

If it were merely the campaign appearances, I might be inclined to agree that there isn't any effect on Obama, but the close ties between Obama and Corzine show that there is more than just a coincidental linkage.

Obama has put the prestige of his office on the line to help Corzine. If Corzine loses, that affects Obama going forward, and makes everyone recalculate the political calculus going into 2010 - namely just how much is Obama's appearances really worth and where Obama stumps in 2010 will be determined by how well he does.

If Corzine pulls it out and wins, Obama may take on riskier districts where Democrats are barely hanging on since even Corzine's awful polling was overcome by Obama's efforts (in part) and linkage between Obama and Corzine. If Corzine loses, Obama may limit his exposure in 2010 to avoid further embarrassment and exposure to the downside.

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

Then why would Obama even show up if Corzine is going to win or loose it on his own.

We're not that stupid. But you go ahead and believe that, it makes it easier to ignore you.

I don't think you understand the purpose of having bigshots do a campaign stop. They aren't going to win over voters who have already decided who they are going to support. The campaign stop by the POTUS is to get disinterested voters to turn out to the polls. If an incumbent candidate has high negatives, no amount of coat-tails are going to be able to bail them out.

re: #98 Bloodnok

Businesses use IE6 and are usually slow to upgrade. Not that I've EVER posted from work...

Oh ok. That makes sense - thanks.

My graduate school used IE 6 in the computer labs. It was so bad it couldn't open the e-mail accounts the school set up.

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

6 lasted about a minute on my office systems. Would not deploy well, not run well. We flipped back to FF for everything except Fedex online shipping-IE8 for that.

On my lil' old site, I really have to put a "runs best with Firefox" label somewhere - IE 6 wrecks the layout in ways I didn't think possible.

re: #40 OpenTheDoor

I think a lot of you folks here are whistling past the graveyard.
Call us names if you like, the "moderate" Republicans scotched the last election, we won't get fooled again.

What? I am sorry, did I accidentally wake up after having gone down the trousers of time into some other universe?

re: #96 akarra

OT: Is there a particular reason why people are using IE 6? I wouldn't insist everyone use Firefox (my favorite browser), Safari or Opera, but I'm just wondering why not a more recent version of IE.

Work has IE 6 loaded as the default browser and you have to be the admin to load another browser, and they dont want to spend the money and resources to push out a new browser to 200K+ workstations.

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

You sound like you are hoping they do?

Not at all, I am just thinking of the quote from the Militia leadeer:

“We're not out to start a war,” Terrell said, although he added, “it may be forced on us if lines are crossed,” through “gun confiscations, forced inoculations and the rounding up of dissidents.”

My personal "worst case Scenario" is that these people are so convinced of the Righteousness of their Cause that they will not let anything as annoying as a defeat at the polls slow them down...

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Electioneering within 100 ft of the polling place is illegal and the police being called to send them on their way was the appropriate thing to do. However, if you read through the comments, there's claims of vandalism on the part of anti-Hoffman folks (destroying/damaging property). That's pretty ugly stuff, if such claims can be verified, which at this point is nothing more than hearsay.

re: #105 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Work has IE 6 loaded as the default browser and you have to be the admin to load another browser, and they dont want to spend the money and resources to push out a new browser to 200K+ workstations.

Thanks. Fingers crossed that the browser works well enough for everything you have to do, or that work feels like upgrading sometime soon.

re: #101 drcordell

I don't think you understand the purpose of having bigshots do a campaign stop. They aren't going to win over voters who have already decided who they are going to support. The campaign stop by the POTUS is to get disinterested voters to turn out to the polls. If an incumbent candidate has high negatives, no amount of coat-tails are going to be able to bail them out.

see... lawhawk said it better than me... and just because you keep repeating your little meme "it doesn't matter" doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

re: #100 lawhawk

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Police Called To NY-23 Polling Sites

From Texas, eh? I wonder if she's from Ron Paul's district.

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

see... lawhawk said it better than me... and just because you keep repeating your little meme "it doesn't matter" doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

re: #100 lawhawk

Sure ,,, let the smart kid do the talkin for ya!

//

How are you today? Any more snow lately?

re: #107 lawhawk

Agreed. People get passionate about politics but my concern is the Tea Parties are going to turn this into more of a circus that it needs to be.

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Police Called To NY-23 Polling Sites

Yelling political slogans at the polls while covered in a candidate's stickers is not a way to endear the voters to that candidate.

I can't think of two more unflattering photos, or more concise portrayals.

NY Daily News: Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin urge conservative right to purge moderates from Republican Party

re: #111 sattv4u2

Sure ,,, let the smart kid do the talkin for ya!

//

How are you today? Any more snow lately?

No, and none in the forecast for the next seven days, which is ok with me, since this is crossover between shows, and I have to be downhill much more during these two weeks before we open our Xmas show on Nov. 13th.

re: #113 MandyManners

Yelling political slogans at the polls while covered in a candidate's stickers is not a way to endear the voters to that candidate.

Imagine if Rev Phelps and Co. showed up to "help" your GOTV.

re: #113 MandyManners

They also seem to be anti-abortion folks too. They can get pretty offensive sometimes. It might end up turning off a lot of voters.

Afternoon all! This may be a little OT, but perhaps not - after all, the elections we're talking about put people into office with - sometimes - this kind of result:

After a flurry of stimulus spending, questionable projects pile up

(I know it's the Washington Examiner, but the sources include Sen. Tom Coburn's office.)

Kind of an interesting list.

;-)

re: #114 theheat

I can't think of two more unflattering photos, or more concise portrayals.

NY Daily News: Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin urge conservative right to purge moderates from Republican Party

"Moderates by definition have no principles," Limbaugh huffed on his radio show yesterday. He predicted that "RINOs" - a putdown acronym of "Republicans In Name Only" - "may become extinct."

Fuck you, Rush.

re: #113 MandyManners

Yelling political slogans at the polls while covered in a candidate's stickers is not a way to endear the voters to that candidate.

Which makes you wonder if they really support the candidate?

re: #116 Decatur Deb

Imagine if Rev Phelps and Co. showed up to "help" your GOTV.

I'd high-tail it to court to get a restraining order.

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Nobody yet for a big office; the strategy is to build up solidly from the grass roots.

re: #118 subsailor68

Afternoon all! This may be a little OT, but perhaps not - after all, the elections we're talking about put people into office with - sometimes - this kind of result:

After a flurry of stimulus spending, questionable projects pile up

(I know it's the Washington Examiner, but the sources include Sen. Tom Coburn's office.)

Kind of an interesting list.

;-)

There have been articles like this all over the country. It's falling apart and the shine is off the rose.

re: #118 subsailor68

(I know it's the Washington Examiner, but the sources include Sen. Tom Coburn's office.)

You make it sound like there is a difference...

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Which makes you wonder if they really support the candidate?

Step away from the looking glass.

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Which makes you wonder if they really support the candidate?

I might wonder if he wasn't a 912er.

re: #117 Killgore Trout

They also seem to be anti-abortion folks too. They can get pretty offensive sometimes. It might end up turning off a lot of voters.

If Hoffman approved this, he's a huge, honking idiot.

re: #127 MandyManners

If Hoffman approved this, he's a huge, honking idiot.

No he's not, he's a politician. What makes you think he cares about anything but winning?

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Which makes you wonder if they really support the candidate?

Code-Pinkos in drag or die-hard anti-choicers who just wanna' harangue someone?

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

No he's not, he's a politician. What makes you think he cares about anything but winning?

Makes me wonder about his intelligence if he approves of this.

re: #124 Dynomite

You make it sound like there is a difference...

LOL! There is! Tom Coburn's a doctor, whereas the Examiner merely doctors the news.

(Or something like that!)

re: #50 Decatur Deb

Welcome, comrade. Would you like the Trotsky Suite, or something a
little more menshevik?

Don't count on me yet, I still have some fight left, I don't think the beckdroids can hold sway in the longer term.

re: #119 MandyManners

I guess he thinks Bush41 should be kicked out...

re: #131 subsailor68

LOL! There is! Tom Coburn's a doctor, whereas the Examiner merely doctors the news.

(Or something like that!)

I *so* regret that I lost my dinging ability until I reach a certain number of posts. That's worth an upding. Consider this one virtual. :)

Afternoon, everyone! Can only stay about 45 minutes because of a previous obligation.

Swedish politician Jan-Erik Brohede dead from H1N1 related illness

re: #130 MandyManners

Makes me wonder about his intelligence if he approves of this.

It doesn't make me wonder at all about anything. He's a politician. The whole professions has framed themselves as self-serving career assholes who have NO, not one ounce of interest in the citizens any further than if they will get them elected.

You are not that important, you are nothing more than a tic on a ballot, you are nothing more than someone signing his meal ticket and once you sign it, your history.

re: #133 Rightwingconspirator

I guess he thinks Bush41 should be kicked out...

In October, I lost any scintilla of respect for Rush that lingered.

re: #119 MandyManners

One little joke about the swine flu and he's made an enemy for life.
//

Can't blame you one bit, Mandy.

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't make me wonder at all about anything. He's a politician. The whole professions has framed themselves as self-serving career assholes who have NO, not one ounce of interest in the citizens any further than if they will get them elected.

You are not that important, you are nothing more than a tic on a ballot, you are nothing more than someone signing his meal ticket and once you sign it, your history.

You're gonna' make Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine cry.

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

You are not that important, you are nothing more than a tic on a ballot, you are nothing more than someone signing his meal ticket and once you sign it, your history.

Sad thing is, we do our part to perpetuate that belief.

re: #138 theheat

One little joke about the swine flu and he's made an enemy for life.
//

Can't blame you one bit, Mandy.

It wasn't just that.

re: #139 MandyManners

ROFLMAO

re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nah, works fine every where. I try to look at LGF with it, pages starts to load, then pops up the "Operation aborted" warning and goes to page failed to load, server may be down screen.

I got that at work all day yesterday and today (until a few minutes ago.) But it took a while for the comments to load.

Worst Campaign website EVAR!!1!11

Seriously you have got to see this...bwahahahaha!

[Link: www.georgehutchins.com...]

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Other than that, in these times of critical decisionmaking, would you like to make an important contribution to...

re: #141 MandyManners

He's made me retch for years. Palin's made me retch approximately one year.

re: #126 Soundboard Fez

I might wonder if he wasn't a 912er.

They don't support the candidate, or even the party, they support the Ideology.

re: #139 MandyManners

You're gonna' make Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine cry.

Ball away bitch :) ... because really, that is the vibe I get from politicians now a days it's over, it is not a representative government anymore.

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

see... lawhawk said it better than me... and just because you keep repeating your little meme "it doesn't matter" doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

re: #100 lawhawk

My little meme? I think you mean your little meme. The empirical data shows that off-cycle gubernatorial elections aren't a statistically significant indicator. And it's not as if Obama is the first POTUS to ever hit the campaign trail to stump for candidates. The onus seems to be on you to prove why this election is any different than the historical data. And the simple fact that Obama has popped up on the NJ campaign trail is hardly anything new.

I'm sure the beltway chattering classes will echo your sentiments for the next two years should Christie win, but frankly that would convince me even further that Corzine's loss is meaningless.

re: #110 MandyManners

From Texas, eh? I wonder if she's from Ron Paul's district.

Spiritually, if not geographically.

re: #139 MandyManners

You're gonna' make Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine cry.

Ain't no sunshine when she's gone...

When we were in grade school us guys used to balance a girl on our shoulders and let them slap fight each other - all in good fun. Mary was my next door neighbor and usually my partner. I often had sunshine on my shoulders!

If Hoffman is elected, you know damn well he'll eventually try to get pork for the district. I don't know how many times I've heard about a candidate who's ran how he's different from the status quo in Washington and he's going to change the culture there blah but he ends up being the same if not more crooked than what he replaces. And his supporters are idiots if they think shouting at people is going to endear them to their candidate.

re: #146 theheat

He's made me retch for years. Palin's made me retch approximately one year.

I do my studious best to ignore the pair.

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

Ball away bitch :) ... because really, that is the vibe I get from politicians now a days it's over, it is not a representative government anymore.

Has it ever been otherwise?

re: #152 HappyWarrior

If Hoffman is elected, you know damn well he'll eventually try to get pork for the district. I don't know how many times I've heard about a candidate who's ran how he's different from the status quo in Washington and he's going to change the culture there blah but he ends up being the same if not more crooked than what he replaces. And his supporters are idiots if they think shouting at people is going to endear them to their candidate.

Remember, he doesn't even live in that district. Talk about Ideology über alles

re: #150 Guanxi88

Spiritually, if not geographically.

I wonder what she does for a living.

North Korea says no H1N1 cases.

Article reads as of South Korea believes them!

re: #151 SteveC

Ain't no sunshine when she's gone...

When we were in grade school us guys used to balance a girl on our shoulders and let them slap fight each other - all in good fun. Mary was my next door neighbor and usually my partner. I often had sunshine on my shoulders!

Kids nowadays would be up on juvenile charges for that.

re: #149 drcordell

My little meme? I think you mean your little meme. The empirical data shows that off-cycle gubernatorial elections aren't a statistically significant indicator. And it's not as if Obama is the first POTUS to ever hit the campaign trail to stump for candidates. The onus seems to be on you to prove why this election is any different than the historical data. And the simple fact that Obama has popped up on the NJ campaign trail is hardly anything new.

I'm sure the beltway chattering classes will echo your sentiments for the next two years should Christie win, but frankly that would convince me even further that Corzine's loss is meaningless.

I never said what Obama is doing is something special. And guess what? Judging the president's ability to lead and stir the electorate is nothing new. And if Corzine loses, then all the shit that is going to be put on Obama's head is nothing new.

You're right, I agree with everything you say, including that fact that his loss will be meaningless, and even our president couldn't give it meaning, because Obama has none.

And I am looking forward to it.

re: #157 SteveC

North Korea says no H1N1 cases.

Article reads as of South Korea believes them!

Not many people go there.

Washington Independent: A New Conservative Star Wrestles With the Spotlight

Outside, two dozen Hoffman supporters lined the sidewalks with signs that attacked Owens as a “Pelosi puppet” and an agent of ACORN.

“I was at a Tea Party, but this is too slow a process for me,” said John Dewitt, a contractor from Adams, N.Y. “I’m more on the violence side. I’m more of the Civil War, revolutionary kind of guy. I’m of the old school–you kick them in the ass and be done with it.”

The Hoffman backers outside of the Biden event all said they’d attended Tea Parties. Some were affiliated with Glenn Beck’s 9/12 Project. All worried that ACORN was going to show up in the district, or even at the Biden event–a paranoia that led to some minor awkwardness when an African-American Hoffman worker walked by.

“This guy’s with ACORN,” said Dewitt.

“Definitely, not from around here,” said businessman Erik Dunk.

I don't want to quote too much of the article, but the Hoffman supporters also discuss how Obama is really a Muslim.

We've reached an interesting place as a country when these sorts of statements are reported in such a matter-of-a-fact fashion (as they're so unexceptional).

re: #154 MandyManners

Has it ever been otherwise?

Yes, one time... a while back... well.. a long while back... around 1923... most of that year... well... a few months... actually one day in November... in the afternoon... I remember it well... sort of...

re: #155 ralphieboy

Remember, he doesn't even live in that district. Talk about Ideology über alles

Yep, and I heard that when he was interviewed he couldn't identify any local concerns. What's also funny is how he's supposedly this outsider yet he's got all the big conservative names backing him.

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Not many people go there.

You are correct, it is NOT a tourist destination!

Pelosi's bil creates at least 111 new Federal bureaucracies.

Including a program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators

Most politicians would kill to have opposition like Barack Obama's had:

Jack Ryan - had to pull out of Senate race due to very twisted (even by Republican standards) sex scandal, and gave him Alan Keyes as GOP opponent.
Alan Keyes - his general insanity pretty much guaranteed Obama's election.

And now the teabagging crowd are doing their best to either/both give Obama an increased majority in Congress next year, and ensure his reelection in 2012. With enemies like these, who needs friends?

re: #161 simoom

Yeah, this guy's not ready for prime time, another CFG meatpuppet:

he tossed out only two pieces of red meat — an attack on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and a promise not to let government “take over health care.” With the rest of his time — less than four minutes — Hoffman talked broadly about bringing jobs back to the district. “I’m going to make sure that everything we can do for Fort Drum, we do it,” he said. “I’m going to make sure that, you know, Watertown, with new jobs, new businesses, and new economy, that’s going to carry us through for the next 20, 30, 50 years.” The second statement did not quite make sense, but the crowd roared its approval.

re: #160 Decatur Deb

I'm not sure a virus could survive in those skeletal undernourished people.

re: #169 Rightwingconspirator

I'm not sure a virus could survive in those skeletal undernourished people.

NK's really worried that if a virus gets loose - especially a virus that likes people with compromised Immune Systems, like H1N1 - BAD THINGS could happen.

/There will be shit and it will hit the fan.

re: #167 Merryweather

I'm unconvinced. Have a link or two?

re: #165 SteveC

Pelosi's bil creates at least 111 new Federal bureaucracies.

Including a program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators

I got a program for treating those perps.

re: #167 Merryweather

Oh, go piss up a rope.

re: #172 MandyManners

I got a program for treating those perps.

Involving lumber and rope?

re: #157 SteveC

North Korea says no H1N1 cases.

Article reads as of South Korea believes them!

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Not many people go there.

Yeah. Global recession has hurt their tourist business.

“I was at a Tea Party, but this is too slow a process for me,” said John Dewitt, a contractor from Adams, N.Y. “I’m more on the violence side. I’m more of the Civil War, revolutionary kind of guy. I’m of the old school–you kick them in the ass and be done with it.”

Wow.
Why have elections and let the people decide when we can just take over and force everyone else to live the way we want them too?
I guess the rest of us have forgotten the "old school" way of civil war.
/

re: #21 Sharmuta

I think the problem in the GOP is the fisc-cons are just as unable to market themselves as the rest of the factions in the party- except ron paul. ron paul is the only one with any marketing ability, and that's the last message we want getting mainstreamed. We need some savvy fisc-cons - Goldwater conservatives - to step up and soon.

Part of the problem is sort of psychological in that the fiscal conservatism I support isn't sexy. Few people find the science of economics interesting, and most people's eyes glaze over when you start talking about the effect of elasticity on taxation. I attribute this to having had a boring experience in macro or micro in college, I dunno. The other two extreme economic positions lend themselves better to dramatic posturing. On one side is the Michael Moore message, and on the other is the Ron Paul message. Both of these positions seem more vigorous and motivating. Trying to explain the real estate bubble and correction in terms of both public and private excesses isn't as sensational as blaming evil Wall Street or evil Washington D.C.

I'm looking around for Barry Golderwater or a Bill Buckley figurehead to better articulate pro-freedom, pro-defense, pro-science, pro-business, limited-government message that isn't related to the anti-Zionist anti-science anti-gay craziness that comes from the Ron Paul crowd. I've wanted a libertarian message to have more prominence in Republican politics for a very long time, but not like this. The GOP has devolved from the party of Alex P. Keaton to the party of Larry the Cable Guy.

re: #177 Liberal Classic

I'm looking around for Barry Golderwater or a Bill Buckley figurehead to better articulate pro-freedom, pro-defense, pro-science, pro-business, limited-government message that isn't related to the anti-Zionist anti-science anti-gay craziness that comes from the Ron Paul crowd. I've wanted a libertarian message to have more prominence in Republican politics for a very long time, but not like this. The GOP has devolved from the party of Alex P. Keaton to the party of Larry the Cable Guy.

I think LGF is about as close as it gets.

re: #61 bosforus

Please do your best to not yourself banned from lgf. I'd hate to see this prophecy lost.

It this is all it takes to be banned, to quote my favorit Marx:
"I would not want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

re: #179 OpenTheDoor

If this is all it takes to be banned, to quote my favorite Marx:
"I would not want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

re: #66 Decatur Deb

Actually, you lost by a fairly reasonable margin. It would have been much
the same, no matter who had run, coming off the Pres. GWB years.

I didn't lose a damn thing, my country lost something, pity the fools.

re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist

Most of them have gay friends or relatives.

I think this is a key point. It's much harder to demonize a group if you personally know someone that is part of that group. Once you see that, other than who they are sexually attracted to, they are no different from straight people, discriminating against them is wrong. Dick Cheney might be an example of this dynamic.

As I've heard mentioned by a couple of gay activists, the most important thing gays can do to advance gay rights is to come out to their friends and family.

re: #165 SteveC

Surprised? It's going to be the biggest government boondoggle of all time. I just don't understand how or why anyone in their right mind even pretends to believe that he government is going to run a national healthcare system that does any real good.

I will not be playing. I will go anywhere and anytime I want for any care I so desire. I will pay my own way and I'll do everything legally in my power to make sure the federal government doesn't get a dime more from me to pay for its nonsense. Not a dime.

re: #18 webevintage

I agree. My son has a gay friend, they are in high school and it's a small Midwestern town we live in.

You can't help who you love or want to be with.

I'm proud of my son, he is 15 and a caring human being.