Unless some of the late precincts are packing a big surprise, it looks like Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman has been defeated by Democrat Bill Owens in New York’s 23rd congressional district election…
UPDATE at 11/3/09 9:18:47 pm:
Yep — Hoffman has conceded to Owens. So there’s the first Democrat victory in NY-23 in more than 100 years. Nice work, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck!
2 |
vbspurs Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:54:03pm |
re: #1 cliffster
So which party won this race, then?
The Party which seemed more consistent in its candidacy. If Owens wins, it won't be a surprise.
| 3 |
The Mongoose Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:55:25pm |
Awfully surprising. Hoffman's numbers looked solid going in, it will be interesting to get an idea of why his votes may have stayed home if he does lose.
Either way, there's no good news or winner worth backing here. Despite protestations to the contrary, Scozzafava is a liberal and would be much more in line with the average Democrat than the average Republican, and the GOP made a huge mistake nominating her in that district. Meanwhile, the Tea Party crowd will find a way to call this a win no matter what, but realistically they will be a victim of the expectations Hoffman's run created if he doesn't pull this out.
| 5 |
keithgabryelski Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:56:43pm |
looks like ME prop one is going anti-gay marriage. well, unless the last 30% of the votes come in 2/3rds the other way.
| 6 |
Charles Johnson Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:56:56pm |
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
| 8 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:57:30pm |
Fox just called 23 for Owens. Hannity is gonna be crying, he predicted a blow out. The left got word they're on notice tonight. And the GOP learned what kind of Republican needs to run in order to win.
| 9 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:57:46pm |
re: #6 Charles
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
So can we put to rest the idea that Sarah Palin, et al, represent the "mainstream" Republican?
| 10 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:00:11pm |
re: #9 cliffster
So can we put to rest the idea that Sarah Palin, et al, represent the "mainstream" Republican?
No, not really. The Sarah may indeed represent the majority of those who today identify with the GOP. However, and fortunately for the USA and all her citizens, that same group who do identify with The Sarah are a minority of all voters.
| 11 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:31pm |
re: #3 The Mongoose
It's not hard to picture the pi--ed off Scozzo followers taking her literally and pulling the D lever. So really, the RINO elected the Democrat. Too bad the NY state party doesn't have its act together.
| 12 |
Randall Gross Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:34pm |
re: #3 The Mongoose
He never had the votes. Without Scozzafava pulling out he wouldn't have won a third I would wager. Even with her pull out and non candidacy in the end she polled better than Ron Paul did nationally.
| 13 |
That's Glenn Beck to you Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:36pm |
Well I have some work to do for tomorrow's show.
Because I am going to have to deal with people pointing out that the Republican Party can blow the simplest of elections when Social Conservatives like me try to kill off any moderate Republican.
So a district that has been Republican safe since Teddy Roosevelt was around can actually have a no-name Democrat win when we SoCons insist that the party needs to be purged of RINOs in order to attract big majorities.
Hmmm.
I know. I'll cry.
OK - time to go to bed - for a minute there I thought I'd go to bed not knowing what to do tomorrow.
| 14 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:01:53pm |
re: #9 cliffster
So can we put to rest the idea that Sarah Palin, et al, represent the "mainstream" Republican?
We won't know the answer to that until 2010. Ask me again on election night next year.
| 15 |
Kragar Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:02:34pm |
WEEZ IN UR PRECINKT, STEALIN UR VOTZ!
I predict outrage.
| 16 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:02:38pm |
re: #9 cliffster
It wasn't nice work, Sarah Palin... it was sloppy work, NY state Republicans.
| 17 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:02:56pm |
re: #11 tradewind
It's not hard to picture the pi--ed off Scozzo followers taking her literally and pulling the D lever. So really, the RINO elected the Democrat. Too bad the NY state party doesn't have its act together.
Seems the state was fine. It was the interlopers that fucked the GOP here.
/hat tip Sharpton
| 18 |
Mich-again Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:03:37pm |
The right wing will steal a page from the political hack handbook and blame their defeat on the notion they didn't go far enough in their extremism.
| 19 |
bratwurst Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:03:57pm |
| 20 |
The Shadow Do Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:19pm |
Congratulations Mr. Owens. I say this as a Republican.
| 21 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:40pm |
Even if the Tea Partiers added Scozzafava's numbers to Hoffman's it would have been a close split. And indication to me that they don't have a compelling argument (something I already know).
The reality is that Owens is getting a lot of votes tonight. You're also getting a good deal of protest votes for Scozzafava. No where do I see a compelling message from Hoffman tonight. If the 23rd was conservative in the past it's not apparent because Owens is performing very well tonight.
| 22 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:42pm |
Theocratic nativists are not appealing to the electorate. The lesson the kookosphere will take from this election is they need to be even more conservative than hoffman. Good luck with that.
| 24 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:52pm |
Will the crowd turn on The Sarah? From Palin's facebook page, just minutes ago:
Mya Rose Governor Palin: It would appear that Hoffman (NY) will not eke out a victory tonight. Many thought he was a shoe-in. I'm very disappointed that you did not come down to the lower 48 to campaign for him, which I had requested a few days ago. I'm sure that would have made all the difference. I'm sure he has the cons. values needed for the job and is very bright as an accountant, but he doesn't project that well--appears shy and holds back. Having you in his area would have made all the difference, I'm sure. You promised a few months ago that you would campaign for those who share your conservative values. What can I say ~ just very disappointed in you! ~~
I'm very please we won in NJ & VA.
7 minutes ago
| 25 |
The Mongoose Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:04:57pm |
re: #6 Charles
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
Would Scozzafava have won though? And if so, would this have been a good thing? Let's not forget she had the endorsements of some serious LGF haters, including Markos "Daily Kos" Moulitsas and the Working Families Party, with their ties to everyone's favourite community organizers, ACORN.
The best candidate might have won...thanks to Palin. Not sure she'd see it that way.
| 26 |
Girth Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:05:15pm |
re: #23 beekiller
So much for the teabagger movement.
You'd like to think that wouldn't you?!?
I wish.
| 27 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:05:24pm |
re: #18 Mich-again
The right wing will steal a page from the political hack handbook and blame their defeat on the notion they didn't go far enough in their extremism.
I actually think they will lose steam. My hopes/predictions? The GOP gets their shit together and pushed out the fringe. They used the anger maybe (playing a dangerous game) but NOW they have victories to fuel momentum.
| 29 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:06:29pm |
re: #17 jayzee
Watching and listening to Scozzo' act a couple of times before the election , she bore little resemblance to any republican candidate I've seen, and I am not using a very conservative standard as the yardstick. She seemed like a perfectly mainstream NY Democrat in every way but her second amendment preferences.
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:06:53pm |
| 31 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:07:13pm |
re: #21 Gus 802
Well, you have to admit... Hoffman was not exactly a rock star.
| 32 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:07:22pm |
With 87% of precincts reporting, updated at 12:04 EST...
Bill Owens Dem. 59,809 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 55,229 45.4
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 6,725 5.5
| 33 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:18pm |
re: #25 The Mongoose
Would Scozzafava have won though? And if so, would this have been a good thing? Let's not forget she had the endorsements of some serious LGF haters, including Markos "Daily Kos" Moulitsas and the Working Families Party, with their ties to everyone's favourite community organizers, ACORN.
The best candidate might have won...thanks to Palin. Not sure she'd see it that way.
She'd have caucused with the GOP had she won. She signed that no tax pledge thing, and with the VA and NJ victories she'd have to go more to the right. Politically, she'd have no real choice. Good news is Owens can't, as the first dem in over 100 yrs, be looking for a Pelosi photo opp anytime soon.
| 34 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:27pm |
re: #28 bosforus
In their eyes, the loss puts them on the map.
Yeah. They'll throw in candidates that a) live outside of the districts they're running in, b) know little to nothing about the districts they're running in, and c) fly in a bunch of outsiders to irritate the locals and influence the election. I've found that "c" is not appreciated by most Americans.
| 35 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:08:34pm |
re: #24 freetoken
Are you taking up the cato crusade?
You seem a tad obsessed with former Governor Palin.
| 36 |
Mich-again Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:09:01pm |
| 37 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:09:22pm |
re: #31 tradewind
Well, you have to admit... Hoffman was not exactly a rock star.
True. He was weak on many counts. For one he has no political experience and another is that he was a poor speaker and almost hiding behind his new found handlers.
| 38 |
MandyManners Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:10:16pm |
re: #28 bosforus
In their eyes, the loss puts them on the map.
Isn't that like fucking for virginity?
| 39 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:10:33pm |
re: #37 Gus 802
You're being very kind. He's a walking ad for pocket protectors.//
| 40 |
karmic_inquisitor Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:10:58pm |
The common sense Republican would ask "How did we lose a seat that we've had for 100 years to an unknown guy in an election where we captured two high profile Governor mansions in Obama states?"
The common sense Republican would answer "It seems voters aren't cool with ideological purity."
But those common sense types will be drown out by the SoCons claiming credit for the wins and saying that if a RINO hadn't been in NY 23 in the first place then there would never have been a Hoffman.
| 41 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:11:15pm |
re: #39 tradewind
You're being very kind. He's a walking ad for pocket protectors.//
OK, I'll confess. He had the Howdy Doody thing going.
| 42 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:11:30pm |
I invite liberals to continue trying to say that Republican voters are defined by the extremists. I sincerely hope that is the strategy that is used for 2010 on onwards.
| 44 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:12:15pm |
re: #24 freetoken
Will the crowd turn on The Sarah? From Palin's facebook page, just minutes ago:
Mya Rose Governor Palin: It would appear that Hoffman (NY) will not eke out a victory tonight. Many thought he was a shoe-in. I'm very disappointed that you did not come down to the lower 48 to campaign for him, which I had requested a few days ago. I'm sure that would have made all the difference. I'm sure he has the cons. values needed for the job and is very bright as an accountant, but he doesn't project that well--appears shy and holds back. Having you in his area would have made all the difference, I'm sure. You promised a few months ago that you would campaign for those who share your conservative values. What can I say ~ just very disappointed in you! ~~
I'm very please we won in NJ & VA.
7 minutes ago
I don't think an appearance by Palin would have swung things the other way. She does not have the cross-aisle appeal need to make such a difference.
| 46 |
The Mongoose Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:13:49pm |
re: #33 jayzee
She'd have caucused with the GOP had she won. She signed that no tax pledge thing, and with the VA and NJ victories she'd have to go more to the right. Politically, she'd have no real choice. Good news is Owens can't, as the first dem in over 100 yrs, be looking for a Pelosi photo opp anytime soon.
All fair. It will be worth keeping an eye on. Maybe the GOP can learn some positive and corrective lessons tonight.
| 47 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:13:52pm |
re: #35 tradewind
Are you taking up the cato crusade?
You seem a tad obsessed with former Governor Palin.
Well, CTE is MIA...
The Sarah was the most prominent politician who promoted Hoffman... She also embodies very much of what I consider to be the sorry doctrines of the revanchist-theocratic axis.
| 48 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:14:23pm |
re: #44 Dark_Falcon
I don't think an appearance by Palin would have swung things the other way. She does not have the cross-aisle appeal need to make such a difference.
Sarah Palin defines the GOP in they eyes of people who don't like the GOP.
| 49 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:14:26pm |
re: #23 beekiller
It's been months and I still have yet to meet one of these elusive tea bag/party people. I'm from the South (check), usually vote Republican, (check), go to church (check), and think the government is spending us into the slough of despond (check).
Still, I haven't seen one.
| 50 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:14:56pm |
re: #24 freetoken
Will the crowd turn on The Sarah? From Palin's facebook page, just minutes ago:
Mya Rose Governor Palin: It would appear that Hoffman (NY) will not eke out a victory tonight. Many thought he was a shoe-in. I'm very disappointed that you did not come down to the lower 48 to campaign for him, which I had requested a few days ago. I'm sure that would have made all the difference. I'm sure he has the cons. values needed for the job and is very bright as an accountant, but he doesn't project that well--appears shy and holds back. Having you in his area would have made all the difference, I'm sure. You promised a few months ago that you would campaign for those who share your conservative values. What can I say ~ just very disappointed in you! ~~
I'm very please we won in NJ & VA.
7 minutes ago
At some point folks might wake up and smell the opportunists.
| 52 |
deadletterboy Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:16:02pm |
I'm going to predict that the teabaggers do a combination of two things: 1. See this as a victory, since it brought them (even more) to the nation's attention and 2. Whine a whole lot and try to bring some kind of investigation into things.
| 53 |
bosforus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:16:05pm |
re: #32 ausador
With 87% of precincts reporting, updated at 12:04 EST...
Bill Owens Dem. 59,809 49.1%
Doug Hoffman Con. 55,229 45.4
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 6,725 5.5
If I received 55,000 / 120,000 votes I think I'd sleep pretty well. I don't see the Conservative party going away anytime soon. Unfortunately.
| 54 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:16:23pm |
re: #47 freetoken
Well, CTE is MIA...
The Sarah was the most prominent politician who promoted Hoffman... She also embodies very much of what I consider to be the sorry doctrines of the revanchist-theocratic axis.
And a seat that has been held by Republicans for over a century was lost. What does that tell you about how much Republican voters care about Palin?
| 56 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:17:52pm |
How are the down ballot races doing, party-wise? I just heard Larry King say ' Hoffman may be the first defeat for the right so far tonight'.
| 57 |
Clemente Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:18:09pm |
re: #8 jayzee
Fox just called 23 for Owens. Hannity is gonna be crying, he predicted a blow out. The left got word they're on notice tonight. And the GOP learned what kind of Republican needs to run in order to win.
Well, the GOP saw what kind of "conservative" will not win, but seeing's not learning, and I'm not ready to credit a sizable chunk of the party with learning anything. Not since '06 failed to check their spendy ways, and not since a decade and more of partnership with the dems in what was no less than collusive financial regulatory malfeasance produced consequences no one in DC has the character to correct.
| 58 |
idioma Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:18:29pm |
We still have elections in this country? Fox News keeps saying something about a dictatorship... hmm... Wikipedia says otherwise, but then I just checked in with Colbert. Now I don't know who to believe.
| 59 |
NJDhockeyfan Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:18:33pm |
Obama marks election anniversary with sabbatical
President Obama marked the one-year anniversary of his election by announcing he would take a nine-month sabbatical "to rest and refresh after a grueling year of staggering accomplishment."
The former college professor said fulfilling his campaign promises has been "exhausting, but satisfying," and he needs time to regroup, retool and make plans for his remaining seven years.
"My historic election, followed by my landmark inauguration kicked off an unprecedented burst of accomplishment beyond the wildest dreams of our forefathers," said Obama. "In just 365 days, we've already talked about restoring U.S. moral leadership, we've advanced proposals to transform our economy from the dysfunctional free market model, we've given speeches about reducing our dependence on foreign oil and creating a burgeoning green economy, we've promoted dialogue aimed at bringing quality health care to 47 million uninsured Americans, and we've expressed our intention to end George Bush's futile war in Iraq, and to conquer al Qaeda in Afghanistan."
The president noted that "Rome wasn't built in a day, so if Caesar could see what I've already done, it would rock his world."
During his sabbatical, Obama said he plans to challenge himself intellectually by re-reading his previous memoirs and by writing a much-anticipated third autobiography.
"A president, like a college professor, has to keep his mind sharp," he said. "That's why I'm going to go back and study the works of one of the brightest minds of our generation. I know I still have much to learn from those pages."
Obama said he also plans to travel the world to learn more about the U.S. Constitution and capitalist economics, with planned stops in Europe, Africa, Venezuela, Cuba and several Arab kingdoms.
During the president's sabbatical, Vice President Biden will take over Obama's daunting schedule of daily news conferences, political fundraisers, television interviews, health care rallies, White House visits with important celebrities, and the other presidential duties as outlined in Article 2 of Constitution.
| 60 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:46pm |
re: #25 The Mongoose
in a race without a turncoat entrist like Hoffman?... the R would have walked it.
| 61 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:46pm |
re: #40 karmic_inquisitor
It's not really a stretch to go there, is it? If the Republican candidate had been a bit less overtly a Democrat running as a Republican, there probably would not have been Hoffman as a factor.
| 62 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:00pm |
re: #15 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
WEEZ IN UR PRECINKT, STEALIN UR VOTZ!
I predict outrage.
Complete with accusations of foul play.
| 63 |
karmic_inquisitor Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:05pm |
re: #53 bosforus
If I received 55,000 / 120,000 votes I think I'd sleep pretty well. I don't see the Conservative party going away anytime soon. Unfortunately.
I do hope they don't go away.
I hope they attract the towering minds of the intellectual right like Alan Keyes and Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. Rush too. Maybe they can form an alliance with the BNP and Vlaams.
Then the Republican Party can go back to the Goldwater combination of Western individualism, small government, opportunity through capitalism and an unapologetic foreign policy.
| 64 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:25pm |
re: #40 karmic_inquisitor
The common sense Republican would ask "How did we lose a seat that we've had for 100 years to an unknown guy in an election where we captured two high profile Governor mansions in Obama states?"
The common sense Republican would answer "It seems voters aren't cool with ideological purity."
But those common sense types will be drown out by the SoCons claiming credit for the wins and saying that if a RINO hadn't been in NY 23 in the first place then there would never have been a Hoffman.
The facts speak for themselves, and they speak in a volume that doesn't need speakers or decibels to be heard. This was the night for Republicans to bounce back. You had to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to lose tonight as a Republican in a contested election.
The tent has to be big enough to hold a voting majority, or there's no point pitching it.
| 65 |
shai_au Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:28pm |
re: #42 cliffster
I invite liberals to continue trying to say that Republican voters are defined by the extremists. I sincerely hope that is the strategy that is used for 2010 on onwards.
Depends on who gets picked as the 2012 nominee. I'm sure the "liberals" will be gunning for Palin.
| 66 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:35pm |
re: #54 cliffster
And a seat that has been held by Republicans for over a century was lost. What does that tell you about how much Republican voters care about Palin?
I think people find her an attractive novelty who stirs things up, but when it really came down to it people just don't like outsiders coming in and messing with their stuff.
And they really don't like candidates that don't know local issues or who want to cut funding for the largest employer that the previous Rep. got for the district and they like fair play and probably thought Dede got treated shabbily.
| 67 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:20:51pm |
re: #63 karmic_inquisitor
Then the Republican Party can go back to the Goldwater combination of Western individualism, small government, opportunity through capitalism and an unapologetic foreign policy.
Preach it, Brother!
| 68 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:21:09pm |
The New York Times just called it for Owens at 12:18 EST...
[Link: elections.nytimes.com...]
| 69 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:21:10pm |
re: #54 cliffster
And a seat that has been held by Republicans for over a century was lost. What does that tell you about how much Republican voters care about Palin?
Well, this election was in NY state. Frankly, the Armey-Palin type of Republicans are not the NY type.
Sarah Palin (and similar) will do well in parts of the South and in a few other (narrowly defined) locales. That's it. They are regional movement of backwards looking ideologues with little to recommend them for addressing the issues of the 21st century.
| 71 |
bosforus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:21:35pm |
re: #63 karmic_inquisitor
Then the Republican Party can go back to the Goldwater combination of Western individualism, small government, opportunity through capitalism and an unapologetic foreign policy.
That would be another acceptable outcome.
...sandman's arrived and he's pulling hard on my eyelids, g'night!...
| 72 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:22:01pm |
re: #59 NJDhockeyfan
Dammit, until I saw the Examiner in the link and knew it would lead to Scrappleface, I had a glimmer of hope that you weren't kidding. I'd love to let Joe give it a go for a year or so.
///
Besides, Obama is looking alarmingly skeletal. He's either not eating or he's smoking way too much. He could use some rest.
| 73 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:22:51pm |
re: #63 karmic_inquisitor
I do hope they don't go away.
I hope they attract the towering minds of the intellectual right like Alan Keyes and Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. Rush too. Maybe they can form an alliance with the BNP and Vlaams.
Then the Republican Party can go back to the Goldwater combination of Western individualism, small government, opportunity through capitalism and an unapologetic foreign policy.
Quite Concur.
| 74 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:23:30pm |
re: #69 freetoken
Well, this election was in NY state. Frankly, the Armey-Palin type of Republicans are not the NY type.
Sarah Palin (and similar) will do well in parts of the South and in a few other (narrowly defined) locales. That's it. They are regional movement of backwards looking ideologues with little to recommend them for addressing the issues of the 21st century.
Wait, I thought Palin defined the GOP, and that therefore the GOP was dead??
| 75 |
idioma Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:23:39pm |
re: #6 Charles
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
Some very credible pundits think that Hoffman lost this election Charles, I think we should teach the controversy, and let voters decide!
///
| 76 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:23:47pm |
And the subject of the race has been dropped from Fox and CNN coverage because it doesn't fit their "big night for Republicans, band night for Obama" narrative.
| 77 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:24:02pm |
re: #25 The Mongoose
The best candidate might have won...thanks to Palin. Not sure she'd see it that way.
but as the Hoff-fans would say... she never quit being able to see Russia from her house fo the duration
| 78 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:24:07pm |
re: #65 shai_au
Depends on who gets picked as the 2012 nominee. I'm sure the "liberals" will be gunning for Palin.
I gotta admit that I long for a Palin/Bachmann fight in the primaries just for the entertainment aspect.
Who would Glenn Beck support?
The crazy train would be running at full speed...
| 79 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:24:28pm |
re: #69 freetoken
Frankly, the Armey-Palin type of Republicans are not the NY type.
Maybe they should try the TN type. My senators are both Republican, and neither is a wingnut, nor are they RINOS.
Such people still do exist. The trick is to nominate them.
| 80 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:25:56pm |
re: #76 Conservative Moonbat
I guarantee you that Obama is not thinking it's a great night. I bet he's still grumbling about having had to hit the trail in NJ, and for nothin'. It brings up those embarrassing reminders of the dash to Denmark.
| 81 |
Mark Pennington Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:25:57pm |
re: #49 tradewind
It's been months and I still have yet to meet one of these elusive tea bag/party people. I'm from the South (check), usually vote Republican, (check), go to church (check), and think the government is spending us into the slough of despond (check).
Still, I haven't seen one.
I'm also from the South and I've had the opposite experience. Hell, I'm related to some of them!
| 82 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:26:11pm |
re: #79 tradewind
Maybe they should try the TN type. My senators are both Republican, and neither is a wingnut, nor are they RINOS.
Such people still do exist. The trick is to nominate them.
Corker is kind of Wingnutty. Lamar! is fine though. I actually voted for him.
| 83 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:27:07pm |
Hooray! for the lesser of two evils, I suppose.
In other news, a recent poll finds that a majority of those polled prefer a stubbed toe to a broken leg.
/
| 84 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:27:07pm |
re: #79 tradewind
there didn't have to be any sort of trick involved.
nominate someone, - stick an R on them - and BINGO you win NY23.
RINOS like Palin, Entrists like Hoffman and soul less freaks like Armey cost the GOP NY23. that's all she wrote.
| 85 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:27:25pm |
I'm getting sick of all the RINO's and RINO supporters who want to bash the GOP when we don't support candidates who don't represent us. The bottom line is the NY GOP gave us a candidate who was a McCain republican,"I love the right when I'm running and then I will hobnob with the libs when I'm in office".
We need candidates who support the GOP and the GOP's principles 24/7.
| 86 |
karmic_inquisitor Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:00pm |
re: #61 tradewind
It's not really a stretch to go there, is it? If the Republican candidate had been a bit less overtly a Democrat running as a Republican, there probably would not have been Hoffman as a factor.
All politics are local. There are solidly Democratic districts that have reps that are hard to distinguish from conservative Republicans when you hear them campaign. People often are members of a party because their parents were and all of their friends are and they can't imagine going the other way.
So Democrats have Blue Dogs. Many Blue Dogs.
What is the equivalent in the Republican Party? Oh - there isn't one except for Maine's Senatoral delegation. That's it. All others are cast out.
They stone the unfaithful RINO.
Anyway - the point is that recruiting candidates comes down to finding people who are right for the district. Scazo would have been fine if there hadn't been the outside agitation by those who thought she was the one to make an example of. They picked the target. They missed. They lost. Political parties are about winning elections - the rest (like purity) is secondary.
| 87 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:03pm |
re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth
Hooray! for the lesser of two evils, I suppose.
In other news, a recent poll finds that a majority of those polled prefer a stubbed toe to a broken leg.
/
Only a RINO would go with a stubbed toe.
| 89 |
lightspeed Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:33pm |
The Republican party needs to run stronger candidates. Dede was weak the party brass should have known it. Hoffman was a cypher, as Charles recently put it, a vessel into which the far-right could instill their hopes. He was pretty awful as a candidate, too. The whole thing was handled badly. No big loss here.
| 90 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:28:51pm |
re: #85 jonik
with the names you likely have in mind - get ready to be a very small, very white and very southern party.
| 92 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:29:35pm |
re: #65 shai_au
Depends on who gets picked as the 2012 nominee. I'm sure the "liberals" will be gunning for Palin.
As a liberal, I'd be cheering for her nomination for a 40 plus state win for Obama.
| 93 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:15pm |
re: #89 lightspeed
The Republican party needs to run stronger candidates. Dede was weak the party brass should have known it.
But she probably would have won and then caucused with the Republicans in the House.
Isn't that what is important?
Not that they differ here and there, but how they toe the party line when they are in DC?
| 94 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:23pm |
re: #6 Charles
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
You may be right, but I still can't believe what Bill Clinton said:
"Sarah Palin, now that's one woman I could really get behind, Yessirree!"
| 95 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:23pm |
re: #76 Conservative Moonbat
And the subject of the race has been dropped from Fox and CNN coverage because it doesn't fit their "big night for Republicans, band night for Obama" narrative.
Waitaminute. I thought CNN was full of nothing but Durty Commie Libruls. I'm so confused.
/
| 96 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:24pm |
re: #84 wozzablog
Palin is *not* a RINO... but she does scare lots of people who are.
| 97 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:32pm |
UPDATE at 11/3/09 9:18:47 pm:Yep — Hoffman has conceded to Owens. So there’s the first Democrat victory in NY-23 in more than 100 years. Nice work, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck!
Tea Party Victory!
| 98 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:36pm |
re: #85 jonik
I'm getting sick of all the RINO's and RINO supporters who want to bash the GOP when we don't support candidates who don't represent us. The bottom line is the NY GOP gave us a candidate who was a McCain republican,"I love the right when I'm running and then I will hobnob with the libs when I'm in office".
We need candidates who support the GOP and the GOP's principles 24/7.
I love being called a RINO.
| 99 |
Mark Pennington Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:53pm |
re: #88 tradewind
Wow. What's that like?
///
lol I just do the blank stare a lot and try to be respectful. I'm the blacksheep of the family.
| 100 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:30:58pm |
| 102 |
rollwave87 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:02pm |
re: #9 cliffster
So can we put to rest the idea that Sarah Palin, et al, represent the "mainstream" Republican?
we can agree on that.
| 103 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:16pm |
BS wozzablog, I want candidates who support what the GOP should be:
Less govt and less taxes.
I am also sick with bozzos saying if you want the GOP to be that we are all homophobes and closet racists.
FYI I don't support Palin and I don't watch Beck.
| 104 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:32pm |
re: #42 cliffster
I invite liberals to continue trying to say that Republican voters are defined by the extremists. I sincerely hope that is the strategy that is used for 2010 on onwards.
? Who has been saying that? I thought most people were saying that the GOP was alienating true conservatives (and right leaning moderates and independents) by pushing so-con and theocrat agendas?
The problem is that the party is coming to be defined by extremists, because it's courting them. Not that all the normal people in the country who would like to vote republican collectively became extremist.
/thats what my liberal overlords have told me we think, anyway.
| 105 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:38pm |
re: #96 redc1c4
Palin is *not* a RINO... but she does scare lots of people who are.
If you mean "scare" as will not vote for then I agree.
| 106 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:40pm |
Glenn Beck. Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, now those are real Rs.
| 107 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:31:56pm |
re: #93 webevintage
But she probably would have won and then caucused with the Republicans in the House.
Isn't that what is important?
Not that they differ here and there, but how they toe the party line when they are in DC?
and when it counted, she would have voted Dem, just like Snowe and all the rest.
| 108 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:32:57pm |
re: #85 jonik
We need candidates who support the GOP and the GOP's principles 24/7.
Those principles being? In your opinion, of course.
| 109 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:33:35pm |
re: #92 avanti
As a liberal, I'd be cheering for her nomination for a 40 plus state win for Obama.
as a liberal, you would cheer for anything that is bad for America, like reelecting Ear Leader.
| 110 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:33:38pm |
re: #106 jayzee
Glenn Beck. Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, now those are real Rs.
Michele Bachmann says we should slit our wrists for the party.
| 111 |
shai_au Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:33:45pm |
re: #92 avanti
I guess I would be too, although I am more center left.
By Australian standards, that is. By American standards, looks like I'm a flaming commie. Yay, let's kill some babies!
| 112 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:08pm |
re: #84 wozzablog
That's too bad.
All I know about NY state politics (which isn't much) I learned from following the antics of that wacky Albany bunch when they were in session and going batshiite crazy.
| 113 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:17pm |
re: #110 Sharmuta
Michele Bachmann says we should slit our wrists for the party.
Ooh then she makes the list too.
| 114 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:33pm |
re: #107 redc1c4
Hi Red!
*waves*
Hope all is well in your world!
| 115 |
lightspeed Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:40pm |
re: #93 webevintage
But she probably would have won and then caucused with the Republicans in the House.
Isn't that what is important?
Not that they differ here and there, but how they toe the party line when they are in DC?
I don't think she would have won. I think that a lot of conservatives would have stayed at home. The way her campaign fell apart when challenged from the right leads me to believe that a challenge from the left would have been successful as well. She owns this loss as much as Hoffman, IMHO.
| 117 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:34:51pm |
Less federal gov't, less federal taxes. I would like to see more control of education at the local levels. Anytime the fed is involved, it costs all of us a lot of money. Look at TARP, auto industry, etc.
| 118 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:35:12pm |
re: #96 redc1c4
uh-huh.
she was a Republican in Name Only when supporting the Conservative Party candidate though... wasn't she?
and i suppose she also didn't "quit" her term as governor - merely "retired to a safe distance away from that horrible lib'rul medjia"
| 119 |
Clemente Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:35:15pm |
And to veer wildly, recklessly OT -
From the random left-column link,
Discovery: The Loom - Teach The Lizard Overlord Controversy
He now advocates the theory that modern man is not the result of a natural process of evolution, but that evolution was artificially aided by reptilian extraterrestrials. The reptilians bred mankind as servants and continue to rule the planet today, Horn said.
But really, is a Lizard Overlord link ever off-topic at LGF? I think NOT!
| 120 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:07pm |
re: #103 jonik
BS wozzablog, I want candidates who support what the GOP should be:
Less govt and less taxes.I am also sick with bozzos saying if you want the GOP to be that we are all homophobes and closet racists.
We're homophobes and closet racists if we support less gov't and less taxes? That's news to me. Maybe you're just running with a strange crowd.
| 121 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:18pm |
re: #107 redc1c4
and when it counted, she would have voted Dem, just like Snowe and all the rest.
She would have voted the way the majority of her constituents wanted her to because that's her job.
| 122 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:44pm |
re: #63 karmic_inquisitor
I do hope they don't go away.
I hope they attract the towering minds of the intellectual right like Alan Keyes and Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck. Rush too. Maybe they can form an alliance with the BNP and Vlaams.
Then the Republican Party can go back to the Goldwater combination of Western individualism, small government, opportunity through capitalism and an unapologetic foreign policy.
And that schism will rive both groups to marginal status.
As a Democrat, I want a Republican Party that casts off its freaks and comes at us full bore with reasonable options to the public policies that the Ds are proposing, not this status quo financed PR push of "no".
It's pitiful.
| 123 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:49pm |
re: #104 iceweasel
Read the op-ed section of the Times. Hell, read the front page of the Times. They've been saying it. And I hope they continue hanging their hat on that.
| 124 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:59pm |
re: #95 Slumbering Behemoth
You can sense the nervousness at CNN... they have toned down the MSNBC crazy left line a bit, ever since Fox's ratings shot through the roof... and I think the ACORN thing embarrassed them a little. It's like a disturbance in their force... not completely clear, but rumbling beneath the surface.
| 125 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:06pm |
re: #117 jonik
Look at TARP...
You would have preferred the banking industry in this country to have collapsed?
| 126 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:06pm |
re: #100 Dark_Falcon
Good to see you tonight, Red. How are things?
11 and a wake up for school, then the *dreaded* test, then the true dread: looking for a j*b in the wasteland that is dying economy created by Avanti & KT's would be god king.
on the upside, since all the illegals are leaving CA, i can selloranges to toe government w*rkers on their way to the office, since there won;t be anything else left in the PRC after we elect Jerry Brown again.
| 127 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:21pm |
So...all the races with actual national implications (votes with national policy clout) went for the Dems. Hmm.
Somehow ACORN is to blame for this.
BTW, didn't vote for Corzine, for the same reasons I wouldn't have voted for Larry Summers or Tim Geitner if I'd been given the choice. Pretty sure the rest of new jersians felt the same way. The guy's approval rating was at 45 percent in a pretty blue state (though I live in its reddest county.)
| 128 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:37:52pm |
re: #94 Capitalist Tool
You may be right, but I still can't believe what Bill Clinton said:
"Sarah Palin, now that's one woman I could really get behind, Yessirree!"
That's an ugly image! Not for Bill, of course.
| 129 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:04pm |
re: #117 jonik
Less federal gov't, less federal taxes. I would like to see more control of education at the local levels. Anytime the fed is involved, it costs all of us a lot of money. Look at TARP, auto industry, etc.
And what does keeping gays from marrying and teaching creationism have to do with these principles?
| 130 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:05pm |
re: #114 Floral Giraffe
Hi Red!
*waves*
Hope all is well in your world!
that would be a first: ignorance is bliss, and i'm surrounded by happy people.
on the upside, i'm committed to going into the VA and starting the long process of having them deny i was ever injured in the service of this once great country. i should finally get a few bucks in time to pay for my wake, buit its the thought that counts.
| 131 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:19pm |
re: #123 cliffster
Read the op-ed section of the Times. Hell, read the front page of the Times. They've been saying it. And I hope they continue hanging their hat on that.
Link?
| 132 |
tradewind Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:49pm |
re: #119 Clemente
Speaking of... need to see how the new V redux turned out , dvr is calling.
Way to go, VA/NJ. Damn, had those two lost it would have been intolerable on the networks. The excuses will be bad enough.
| 133 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:51pm |
re: #128 austin_blue
That's an ugly image! Not for Bill, of course.
Sarah would simply shoot him, and Bill's detail would sign off on it being suicide on his part.
| 134 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:39:56pm |
freetoken, we are finding out that the TARP money wasn't needed for a lot of these banks. In other words, the Fed panicked and we ended up paying the bill. If these banks fail, then other smaller banks who didn't take reckless gambles for short term gain would step in and fill the market. Anytime you let gov't in the market, they screw it up.
| 135 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:40:06pm |
re: #125 freetoken
You would have preferred the banking industry in this country to have collapsed?
TARP. Mismanaged, over indulgent TARP that stabilized the banking industry so we could recover from a near banking collapse? TARP made sense, the "stimulus" bill, emmm not really.
| 136 |
lightspeed Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:40:24pm |
re: #121 Conservative Moonbat
She would have voted the way the majority of her constituents wanted her to because that's her job.
No, it's not. A representative's job is to know the issues and vote his/her conscienece. Otherwise, why even have a representative democracy? A good representative will sometimes buck his/her own constituents because they know it is the right thing to do. If they are right, they will be reelected. If they are wrong, they will pay at the ballot box. Either way, who the hell wants to have a rep who change their positions according to ever-changing popular opinion? Oh wait, that would be Democrats...
| 137 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:40:54pm |
re: #134 jonik
freetoken, we are finding out that the TARP money wasn't needed for a lot of these banks. In other words, the Fed panicked and we ended up paying the bill. If these banks fail, then other smaller banks who didn't take reckless gambles for short term gain would step in and fill the market. Anytime you let gov't in the market, they screw it up.
now, now: it was for your own good... how dare you question Ear Leader?
| 139 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:41:27pm |
re: #123 cliffster
Read the op-ed section of the Times. Hell, read the front page of the Times. They've been saying it. And I hope they continue hanging their hat on that.
yeah, I don't read them as meaning that in any way other than what I've stated above. And it is true that fewer people are self-identifying as Republicans than ever before-- in other words, the party has been leaving the normal republicans. If "GOP voter" is becoming equivalent to 'extremist', that isn't because anyone is smearing conservatives, but because conservatives are being driven out of the GOP -- when they're not running away from it at top speed.
| 140 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:41:30pm |
re: #117 jonik
Less federal gov't, less federal taxes. I would like to see more control of education at the local levels. Anytime the fed is involved, it costs all of us a lot of money. Look at TARP, auto industry, etc.
Umm...have you thought that "less federal government" got us into this shit in the first place?
If not, please think again.
| 141 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:41:40pm |
re: #136 lightspeed
No, it's not. A representative's job is to know the issues and vote his/her conscienece. Otherwise, why even have a representative democracy? A good representative will sometimes buck his/her own constituents because they know it is the right thing to do. If they are right, they will be reelected. If they are wrong, they will pay at the ballot box. Either way, who the hell wants to have a rep who change their positions according to ever-changing popular opinion? Oh wait, that would be Democrats...
many here think that's *exactly* what we are all supposed to want...
/stand by for down dings
| 142 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:41:57pm |
re: #130 redc1c4
I wish you all the best.
And hope that you will be the recipient of benevolence.
Best wishes to you.
| 143 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:42:32pm |
No, what got us here is the feds misusing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by trying to get people in high interest mortgages.
| 144 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:42:45pm |
re: #140 austin_blue
Umm...have you thought that "less federal government" got us into this shit in the first place?
If not, please think again.
better yet, why don;'t you start thinking to begin with?
it wasn't the local bank's idea to give mortgages to lenders that couldn't pay: that mandate came from DC.
| 145 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:43:08pm |
re: #131 austin_blue
Link?
Sorry, too easy. There is a unified movement to define the GOP by Palin, and by the extremists. It's just true.
| 146 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:43:25pm |
re: #134 jonik
freetoken, we are finding out that the TARP money wasn't needed for a lot of these banks. In other words, the Fed panicked and we ended up paying the bill. If these banks fail, then other smaller banks who didn't take reckless gambles for short term gain would step in and fill the market. Anytime you let gov't in the market, they screw it up.
No doubt gov screwed the pooch, but TARP was needed. Was a lot mispent? I have no doubt. Nonetheless, I think Bush did the right thing.
| 147 |
lightspeed Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:43:57pm |
re: #141 redc1c4
many here think that's *exactly* what we are all supposed to want...
/stand by for down dings
Down dings for suggesting that politicians stand by their principles, even if it may cost them their jobs? Wow, what a thought.
| 148 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:44:12pm |
redc1c4 I agree, the feds got into the market and they screwed it up. This whole "crisis" was started by the mortage debacle.
| 149 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:44:18pm |
re: #126 redc1c4
11 and a wake up for school, then the *dreaded* test, then the true dread: looking for a j*b in the wasteland that is dying economy created by Avanti & KT's would be god king.
on the upside, since all the illegals are leaving CA, i can selloranges to toe government w*rkers on their way to the office, since there won;t be anything else left in the PRC after we elect Jerry Brown again.
Anybody on the Republican side look like they might have a chance?
| 150 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:44:35pm |
re: #117 jonik
Less federal gov't, less federal taxes. I would like to see more control of education at the local levels. Anytime the fed is involved, it costs all of us a lot of money. Look at TARP, auto industry, etc.
If we could trust that local school boards weren't run by fundamentalists who are trying to erase the past 150 years of scientific understanding, I'd be more sympathetic to the local school plight. However, that's not the case, and I wouldn't mind seeing a base curriculum debated nationally, so we can finally have it out and figure out what side everyone is on. Are you a crazy fundamentalist or one of their enablers? If you don't think it's "Bad for America" to have our kids growing up thinking the world is 6000 years old and not understanding the process of evolution and how it impacts biological systems, you're nuts.
| 151 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:01pm |
re: #134 jonik
Anytime you let gov't in the market, they screw it up.
Well, that is a belief of yours that I suspect can't be objectively supported...
Nevertheless, the whole TARP effort was perceived *at the time* as being vital to keep the US banking industry from collapsing.
To propose that if there were no TARP everything would have been fine is a conjecture. We know that many banks were in very bad shape and that cascading failures were possible.
| 152 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:24pm |
re: #144 redc1c4
local banks, payday loan firms and other shadier lenders did not lend out of a sense of duty to the govt of George W Bush... they lent because they would squeeze homeowners who couldn't afford it for every penny - then (because the housing market was only ever going up...) could take the house and sell at the top of the market as soon as the owner defaulted.
| 153 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:39pm |
re: #142 Floral Giraffe
I wish you all the best.
And hope that you will be the recipient of benevolence.
Best wishes to you.
thanks for the thoughts, but life has taught me to expect otherwise.
we were all put here to suffer and die needlessly. its just that, unlike some, i refuse to buy into the BS that its all skittles and beer. besides, i *still* haven't gotten my unicorn.
remember: its always darkest just before it goes pitch black.
| 154 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:45:56pm |
re: #143 jonik
No, what got us here is the feds misusing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by trying to get people in high interest mortgages.
Ah. You are one of those. Pointless to discuss the issue with one so ignorant. Too bad.
| 155 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:46:08pm |
| 156 |
BARACK THE VOTE Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:46:20pm |
re: #145 cliffster
Sorry, too easy. There is a unified movement to define the GOP by Palin, and by the extremists. It's just true.
Yes, but it's coming from the GOP itself, unfortunately.
I know that the erstwhile party of personal responsibility is now all about the victimhood, but this is a new one. Are Dems also responsible for which figures the GOP chooses to elevate to leadership?
/That's some catch, that catch=22
/It's the best there is, Doc daneeka agreed.
| 157 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:46:53pm |
re: #145 cliffster
Sorry, too easy. There is a unified movement to define the GOP by Palin, and by the extremists. It's just true.
you forgot to wave your magic wand...
you're just mad anyone questions your desired definition.
| 158 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:46:54pm |
re: #144 redc1c4
better yet, why don;'t you start thinking to begin with?
it wasn't the local bank's idea to give mortgages to lenders that couldn't pay: that mandate came from DC.
Listening to too much Glenn Beck rots your brain.
| 159 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:07pm |
re: #148 jonik
Mortgage Backed Security debacles and an over inflated housing market from people who should never have been accepted for credit getting it.
Credit was not being managed. At all.
once credit was given it was balled up in to indecipherable securities packages... which were not regulate and which ratings agencies passed off as AAA.
| 160 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:12pm |
re: #151 freetoken
Well, that is a belief of yours that I suspect can't be objectively supported...
Nevertheless, the whole TARP effort was perceived *at the time* as being vital to keep the US banking industry from collapsing.
To propose that if there were no TARP everything would have been fine is a conjecture. We know that many banks were in very bad shape and that cascading failures were possible.
Oddly I agree with both of you. You for the importance of TARP and jonik about government influence in the free market.
| 161 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:15pm |
Hey Austin, I know you believe Barney when he says it wasn't his fault
| 162 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:22pm |
re: #144 redc1c4
better yet, why don;'t you start thinking to begin with?
it wasn't the local bank's idea to give mortgages to lenders that couldn't pay: that mandate came from DC.
Oh, you too. Oh, dear.
If only everything in life could be so simple.
| 163 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:29pm |
re: #156 iceweasel
Yes, but it's coming from the GOP itself, unfortunately.
I know that the erstwhile party of personal responsibility is now all about the victimhood, but this is a new one. Are Dems also responsible for which figures the GOP chooses to elevate to leadership?/That's some catch, that catch=22
/It's the best there is, Doc daneeka agreed.
Actually, the ones the GOP chose to elevate did pretty well tonight.
| 164 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:47:54pm |
re: #154 austin_blue
Ah. You are one of those. Pointless to discuss the issue with one so ignorant. Too bad.
looking in the mirror, are we? it must be your pic on the "Keep Austin Weird" bumper sticker this year.
| 165 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:48:12pm |
Hey Austin instead of insulting everyone-make a point.
| 166 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:48:35pm |
re: #153 redc1c4
Well, may you have rats on the powerlines to shoot for, forever.
And beer kegs to enjoy.
I don't know how to get some optimism into your attitude.
Other, than you have friends here.
If'n you don't burn the bridge.
I, miss you!
| 167 |
Velvet Elvis Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:48:59pm |
re: #148 jonik
redc1c4 I agree, the feds got into the market and they screwed it up. This whole "crisis" was started by the mortage debacle.
It was started by ditching Glass- Steagall in 1999.
| 168 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:49:13pm |
re: #154 austin_blue
Ah. You are one of those. Pointless to discuss the issue with one so ignorant. Too bad.
I don't think that is an ignorant argument. With Fannie and Freddie backing high risk loans, everyone started selling them cause they could flip the paper with quasi governmental backing. Problem is someone gets stuck holding the hot potato eventually.
| 169 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:49:17pm |
re: #158 dugmartsch
Listening to too much Glenn Beck rots your brain.
you would know: i don't do anyone's talk radio.
wanna try again, or are you going to stay stuck on stoopid?
| 170 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:49:37pm |
re: #143 jonik
No, what got us here is the feds misusing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by trying to get people in high interest mortgages.
Oh my, it was so, so much more then that.
Try unregulated derivatives and you can lay that at the feet of the Clinton administration and Greenspan.
I think Phil "Americans are a bunch of whiners" Graham might be responsible for some of it too.
| 171 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:50:17pm |
re: #159 wozzablog
Mortgage Backed Security debacles and an over inflated housing market from people who should never have been accepted for credit getting it.
Credit was not being managed. At all.
once credit was given it was balled up in to indecipherable securities packages... which were not regulate and which ratings agencies passed off as AAA.
And to say that the governement forced these loans is asinine, the government wasn't even buying these loans (if you consider freddie and fannie "the government" which wasn't technically true at the time) until late 2005, and only because they were supposedly losing lots of money by not doing so. Stupid government, not nearly as efficient as running the economy into the ground as private banking. It could really learn a thing or two.
| 172 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:50:32pm |
re: #5 keithgabryelski
looks like ME prop one is going anti-gay marriage. well, unless the last 30% of the votes come in 2/3rds the other way.
Big sigh.
| 173 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:50:54pm |
re: #140 austin_blue
Umm...have you thought that "less federal government" got us into this shit in the first place?
If not, please think again.
After all, the SEC et al did such a fine job catching Bernie Madoff and keeping an eye on Bear Stearns and Enron and ad infinitum.
| 174 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:51:20pm |
re: #166 Floral Giraffe
Well, may you have rats on the powerlines to shoot for, forever.
And beer kegs to enjoy.
I don't know how to get some optimism into your attitude.
Other, than you have friends here.
If'n you don't burn the bridge.
I, miss you!
actually, i got a rat earlier tonight, while the LAPD was searching for another rat (GTA kind) just down the street. guess he didn't hear me over the ghetto bird.
if enthusiasm is contagious, i am immune. you want me to be optimistic, change history and human nature.
| 175 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:51:20pm |
re: #161 jonik
Hey Austin, I know you believe Barney when he says it wasn't his fault
No, there is lot's of blame to go around. But Barney didn't create the financial instruments that brought the banking system to its knees. The banks did.
Suck it up, dude. Speculation without controls is to blame.
| 176 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:51:37pm |
| 177 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:51:47pm |
re: #166 Floral Giraffe
Well, may you have rats on the powerlines to shoot for, forever.
And beer kegs to enjoy.
I don't know how to get some optimism into your attitude.
Other, than you have friends here.
If'n you don't burn the bridge.
I, miss you!
I could use some red brand fruitcup right about now.
| 178 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:03pm |
re: #165 jonik
Hey Austin instead of insulting everyone-make a point.
blue on blue is an AF tradition
| 179 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:32pm |
| 180 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:34pm |
re: #140 austin_blue
Umm...have you thought that "less federal government" got us into this shit in the first place?
If not, please think again.
No, Blue Austin, it didn't. And being insulting towards people who believe otherwise doesn't change reality.
| 181 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:38pm |
re: #176 wozzablog
i wasn't insulted - hey - why is everyone not insulting me tonight???
(damnit)
damfool
/
| 182 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:52:51pm |
Uhh...not to rain on your TARP bashing parade too much but the government has actually made money on the program, over $4 billion so far. Seriously google is your friend...
[Link: www.moneymorning.com...]
| 183 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:53:15pm |
re: #174 redc1c4
I'd settle for you to be in a positive attitude about your circumstances.
But, they're not my circumstances & your choice of attitude isn't mine.
Nevertheless.
I wish you nothing but the best.
I hope you can achieve your dreams.
| 184 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:54:19pm |
re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist
Big sigh.
What did you expect? This is the only issue Republicans truly own that they can turn out majorities in support of. Way to go, party of Gay Hate. Lincoln would be proud.
| 185 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:54:37pm |
re: #171 dugmartsch
um
i didn't say the government forced the loans...
payday and mortgage shops cropping up in THE worst neighbourhoods had no contact with anyone but the ecurities dealers and the tennants they were mis-selling to.
| 186 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:54:39pm |
re: #18 Mich-again
The right wing will steal a page from the political hack handbook and blame their defeat on the notion they didn't go far enough in their extremism.
How much farther could they have gone? Gotten a guy who proposed public stonings? An end to all taxation to be replaced by charitable donations to private highway repaid companies? What do they want that Hoffman didn't kind of imply he'd give them?
| 187 |
harpsicon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:54:46pm |
re: #140 austin_blue
Umm...have you thought that "less federal government" got us into this shit in the first place?
If not, please think again.
It's pretty clear to me that more federal govt "got us into this shit" - what we've had is a financial panic as opposed to an economic recession, and what caused it pure and simple was the meltdown of gazillions in mortgage paper.
An absolutely necessary condition for the creation of all that bad paper was the Community Reinvestment Act, followed by the nonsense of Fan/Fred which was entirely enabled by Barney Frank and friends (who believed in the masquerade of these entities as "companies" as opposed to govt entities).
With private lenders and mortgage companies (correctly) reading that such mortgage loans were backed by the govt, they made deals that nobody would ever have made if their own money was at stake, as opposed to OPM - in this case yours and mine, courtesy of the federal govt.
It's time for liberals to face up to this truth, if only so that it doesn't happen again.
| 188 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:12pm |
| 189 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:16pm |
| 190 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:23pm |
re: #167 Conservative Moonbat
It was started by ditching Glass- Steagall in 1999.
Greed happens. Government, corporate, personal. There was that, Fannie/Freddie, mark to market, etc etc etc. Perfect storm. Good times.
| 191 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:55:28pm |
re: #180 cliffster
No, Blue Austin, it didn't. And being insulting towards people who believe otherwise doesn't change reality.
La di da! Disagreeing is now insulting.
How...LGF2.
| 192 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:56:57pm |
So, let's look at the last election in New York's 23rd:
Republican John M. McHugh 129,991 65.3
Democratic Michael P. Oot 69,112 34.7
Hoffman wasn't even close. Even if you take into account the Scozafazza differential. This is clearly a sign that candidates like Hoffman aren't even remotely competitive in traditionally Republican districts.
| 193 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:57:01pm |
re: #185 wozzablog
um
i didn't say the government forced the loans...payday and mortgage shops cropping up in THE worst neighbourhoods had no contact with anyone but the ecurities dealers and the tennants they were mis-selling to.
Didn't mean to seem like I was arguing with you I was agreeing and expanding and refuting points up-thread. Sorry for the confusion.
| 194 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:57:33pm |
re: #48 cliffster
Sarah Palin defines the GOP in they eyes of people who don't like the GOP.
I must like the GOP. I see her as a tragedy that just happened to befall Republicans.
| 195 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:58:14pm |
re: #174 redc1c4
actually, i got a rat earlier tonight, while the LAPD was searching for another rat (GTA kind) just down the street. guess he didn't hear me over the ghetto bird.
if enthusiasm is contagious, i am immune. you want me to be optimistic, change history and human nature.
GTA = Grand Theft Auto?
| 196 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:58:40pm |
re: #192 Gus 802
I don't know if that will extend through the Southeast right now. But hopefully, it will soon.
| 197 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:58:42pm |
re: #54 cliffster
And a seat that has been held by Republicans for over a century was lost. What does that tell you about how much Republican voters care about Palin?
It tells me that everyone from upstate New York is a RINO, and probably some kind of liberal elite.
//
| 198 |
jayzee Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:59:21pm |
re: #183 Floral Giraffe
I'd settle for you to be in a positive attitude about your circumstances.
But, they're not my circumstances & your choice of attitude isn't mine.
Nevertheless.
I wish you nothing but the best.
I hope you can achieve your dreams.
I like Floral Giraffe
| 199 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:59:39pm |
I love Sarah Palin; I won't vote for her because I don't agree with her policies. I just like how she makes all the liberal talking heads sh*t their pants thinking about her. It's too funny watching Olbermann and Mathews lose their minds whenever they talk about her.
| 200 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:59:55pm |
re: #187 harpsicon
It's pretty clear to me that more federal govt "got us into this shit" - what we've had is a financial panic as opposed to an economic recession, and what caused it pure and simple was the meltdown of gazillions in mortgage paper.
An absolutely necessary condition for the creation of all that bad paper was the Community Reinvestment Act, followed by the nonsense of Fan/Fred which was entirely enabled by Barney Frank and friends (who believed in the masquerade of these entities as "companies" as opposed to govt entities).
With private lenders and mortgage companies (correctly) reading that such mortgage loans were backed by the govt, they made deals that nobody would ever have made if their own money was at stake, as opposed to OPM - in this case yours and mine, courtesy of the federal govt.
It's time for liberals to face up to this truth, if only so that it doesn't happen again.
Please give some mechanism for the Community Reinvestment Act of 1974 having such a massive impact in a 3 year span 35 years after its enactment.
Seriously.
| 201 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:00:14pm |
| 202 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:00:40pm |
| 204 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:01:34pm |
No but if watch MSNBC or CNN they are in serious PDF.
| 205 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:01:49pm |
re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist
I must like the GOP. I see her as a tragedy that just happened to befall Republicans.
Expect the victim card to be played out tomorrow at the wingbat blogs. All blame will be placed on the NRCC, Scozafazza, ACORN, et al. It will be an argument that "this only proves that we (the Tea Baggers) must be in charge of placing candidates on the ballot!" Of course they do but at the same time they want to do this by co-opting and hijacking the GOP. Otherwise they wind up with single digit results.
| 207 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:02:23pm |
re: #174 redc1c4
Gotta stay positive, bro, and keep looking for that silver lining.
| 208 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:02:39pm |
re: #204 jonik
i watch both - and the "unemployed alaska blogger" tag KO gives her is one of such fearfulness ...
| 209 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:02:46pm |
re: #196 cliffster
I don't know if that will extend through the Southeast right now. But hopefully, it will soon.
You mean like in Florida?
| 210 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:02:47pm |
Frontline:
The Warning
[Link: www.pbs.org...]
"In The Warning, veteran FRONTLINE producer Michael Kirk unearths the hidden history of the nation's worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. At the center of it all he finds Brooksley Born, who speaks for the first time on television about her failed campaign to regulate the secretive, multitrillion-dollar derivatives market whose crash helped trigger the financial collapse in the fall of 2008"
| 211 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:03:10pm |
re: #110 Sharmuta
Michele Bachmann says we should slit our wrists for the party.
That was one of her more interesting moments.
| 212 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:03:24pm |
re: #198 jayzee
Well, thank you, kindly!
I have liked Red & his fruitcup, for a long time.
And, have missed his posting, of late.
| 213 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:03:27pm |
| 214 |
jonik Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:03:45pm |
You watch MSNBC? Oh so you're the one guy that makes up their ratings. Do us all a favor and turn your TV off for a couple of days and watch MSNBC die once and for all.
| 215 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:04:02pm |
I like avanti. He's grown on me. He's not a liberal so much as he's a left of center moderate. I've been able to find common ground with him, and miss hearing about his cars.
| 216 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:04:30pm |
re: #183 Floral Giraffe
I'd settle for you to be in a positive attitude about your circumstances.
But, they're not my circumstances & your choice of attitude isn't mine.
Nevertheless.
I wish you nothing but the best.
I hope you can achieve your dreams.
i'm positive: i'm sure that my body will hurt in the morning. i'm sure that for every hard w*rking intelligent rational person i know or meet, there are dozens of morons. i'm sure i wlll never be healthier than i am today, and that sooner, not later, i will die. govt health care, either VA or Moonbat will see to that, since even if i manage to find a j*b in the wasteland that was the world's greatest economic engine, i will be paying for some lazy shitbird, so that we can all be "fair", and if i don't find a j*b, i will be pushed off to the side for palliative care only, since i'm not economically viable.
what's not to be cheerful about?
i don't have dreams: that way, there's one less disappointment to suffer.
| 217 |
Wozza Matter? Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:04:56pm |
| 218 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:05:12pm |
re: #192 Gus 802
So, let's look at the last election in New York's 23rd:
Republican John M. McHugh 129,991 65.3
Democratic Michael P. Oot 69,112 34.7Hoffman wasn't even close. Even if you take into account the Scozafazza differential. This is clearly a sign that candidates like Hoffman aren't even remotely competitive in traditionally Republican districts.
or that there was massive voter fraud, kind of like the last presidential election.
| 220 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:05:38pm |
re: #206 jonik
I voted McCain/Palin, but I can't take her seriously anymore. Any derangement to be found now is all hers where I am concerned.
| 221 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:06:11pm |
re: #213 cliffster
Florida is different though, isn't it?
Haven't really looked into Florida much. I would prefer Crist. The 23rd is apparently not as conservative as advertised. This should have been apparent considering McHugh's record.
Florida will see a shift in voting attitudes with later generations becoming larger in number and with the lessening effects of the anti-Castro Cuban demographics. Otherwise I'm still not that familiar with Florida.
| 222 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:06:49pm |
re: #205 Gus 802
And expect them to continue getting heavy coverage, despite the kick in the pants to their relevance.
| 223 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:07:27pm |
re: #155 Floral Giraffe
No.
Meg Whitman has a TON of money, but no history of voting, regularly...
She's not picking up a lot of traction that I can see. I'm interested in her, but need to see more than "Oh, a state is just like a business".
| 224 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:07:34pm |
re: #207 Slumbering Behemoth
Gotta stay positive, bro, and keep looking for that silver lining.
| 225 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:07:34pm |
re: #192 Gus 802
So, let's look at the last election in New York's 23rd:
Republican John M. McHugh 129,991 65.3
Democratic Michael P. Oot 69,112 34.7Hoffman wasn't even close. Even if you take into account the Scozafazza differential. This is clearly a sign that candidates like Hoffman aren't even remotely competitive in traditionally Republican districts.
Well, that is true in one District in New York. Applying that as a broad brush to all Republican Districts is a bit of a broad brush.
| 226 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:07:48pm |
re: #222 cliffster
And expect them to continue getting heavy coverage, despite the kick in the pants to their relevance.
That's why a lot of Democrats wanted Hoffman to win.
| 227 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:07:59pm |
I feel so sorry for RSM, he must be completely heartbroken over Hoffmans loss. All that time blogging and dogging after the man for nothing, nothing...
///
| 228 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:08:11pm |
re: #216 redc1c4
Well, POOP!
Just, poop.
I had thought you were stronger than that.
My mistake.
Best of luck to you,(and luck is work, BTW, but you knew that).
And may you find a shiny penny on the ground tomorrow morning.
And may it change your outlook and circumstances for the better.
And may your rat pelts be worth millions.
If you can find them.
{{Red}}
| 229 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:08:40pm |
| 230 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:08:41pm |
re: #192 Gus 802
So, let's look at the last election in New York's 23rd:
Republican John M. McHugh 129,991 65.3
Democratic Michael P. Oot 69,112 34.7Hoffman wasn't even close. Even if you take into account the Scozafazza differential. This is clearly a sign that candidates like Hoffman aren't even remotely competitive in traditionally Republican districts.
And that was just a year ago. Wow. Who knew Republicans weren't the same all over?
/
| 231 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:08:54pm |
re: #218 redc1c4
or that there was massive voter fraud, kind of like the last presidential election.
And especially the presidential election before the last one.
/
C'mon Red, you never struck me as that kind of person.
| 232 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:09:07pm |
re: #227 ausador
I feel so sorry for RSM, he must be completely heartbroken over Hoffmans loss. All that time blogging and dogging after the man for nothing, nothing...
///
Heh.
| 234 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:09:40pm |
re: #225 austin_blue
Well, that is true in one District in New York. Applying that as a broad brush to all Republican Districts is a bit of a broad brush.
Right. And that's why applied it to New York's 23rd. Similar districts will have similar results. It can't be applied to all Republican or conservative districts. I guess what I'm saying is that the 23rd is borderline at this point.
| 236 |
BlueFalcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:10:16pm |
NY-23 is a perfect example of why moderate Republicans cannot jettison ultra-conservatives and expect to win. Consider that this should have been every moderate GOPer's dream scenario: not only were the so-cons and more militant fi-con's jettisoned, the national party apparatus even repudiated those voters by spending money attacking their candidate (and positions).
NY-23 was not a purge of moderates. The RNC, the RNCC, and the "What's up" GOP stuck with Scozzafava all the way up to her endorsing Owens, even to the point of funding attack adds on Hoffman (not that I disapprove of attack ads in general; they are a normal part of a vibrant and exciting election). Catch that: The Republican party funded attack ads on a conservative candidate (not just so-con; it is unlikely he received 45% of the vote for being pro-life, or the Glenn Beck candidate).
Now, don't take this to suggest that conservatives can live without moderates. Surely not; these election results prove otherwise. But I do suggest that moderates have an equal share in the "I'm not talking to you anymore" mentality that is pretty much destroying the big tent.
An unsolicited prognostication: If moderates and conservatives split for good, and the moderates take the GOP, it will be the Democratic Party versus whatever the conservatives cobble together. The GOP will be, as in NY-23, almost completely irrelevant.
| 237 |
Girth Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:10:22pm |
FNC's banner still says NY23 too close to call.
Gotta keep the faithful watching somehow I guess.
| 238 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:10:34pm |
re: #221 Gus 802
Haven't really looked into Florida much. I would prefer Crist. The 23rd is apparently not as conservative as advertised. This should have been apparent considering McHugh's record.
Florida will see a shift in voting attitudes with later generations becoming larger in number and with the lessening effects of the anti-Castro Cuban demographics. Otherwise I'm still not that familiar with Florida.
I think people confuse Republican with "conservative" just as people do Democratic with "liberal." There are many districts that are longtime Democratic yet much more conservative than the party at large. I think this district in New York was the reverse of that for the Republicans. It was a big issue that Scozzafava supported the Employee Free Choice Act but I swear I read somewhere and it may have been here that John McHugh not only supported that in Congress but was a co-sponsor of the legislation. My two cents anyhow.
| 239 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:10:52pm |
re: #195 Dark_Falcon
GTA = Grand Theft Auto?
yes... don't know if they got them, cause after the bird went west and it got quiet for 5-10 mikes, a car alarm went off for about 15 seconds, then stopped. as an old repo guy, that sounds about right.
i was in the back yard with my python, in case then came wall skipping. %-)
| 240 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:11:50pm |
re: #237 Girth
FNC's banner still says NY23 too close to call.
Gotta keep the faithful watching somehow I guess.
Actually, it doesn't. Why do you say it does?
| 241 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:12:06pm |
Wow...Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway purchased the BNSF Railroad in one fell swoop this week.
Coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming to various power plants across the midwest is a major source of traffic for BNSF. Kinda makes me think that Mr. Buffet might know something about the future of Cap & Trade that the rest of us don't know yet...
| 242 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:12:12pm |
re: #239 redc1c4
yes... don't know if they got them, cause after the bird went west and it got quiet for 5-10 mikes, a car alarm went off for about 15 seconds, then stopped. as an old repo guy, that sounds about right.
i was in the back yard with my python, in case then came wall skipping. %-)
6" barrel?
| 244 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:12:52pm |
re: #226 Gus 802
That's why a lot of Democrats wanted Hoffman to win.
I'm happy to say I wasn't one of them. In fact, Hoffman was the reason I started I voted for Owens. Otherwise I wouldn't have really cared. Does being a registered D or R mean we're supposed to think every district should look the same?
It was rhetorical, btw.
| 245 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:13:17pm |
re: #238 HappyWarrior
I think people confuse Republican with "conservative" just as people do Democratic with "liberal." There are many districts that are longtime Democratic yet much more conservative than the party at large. I think this district in New York was the reverse of that for the Republicans. It was a big issue that Scozzafava supported the Employee Free Choice Act but I swear I read somewhere and it may have been here that John McHugh not only supported that in Congress but was a co-sponsor of the legislation. My two cents anyhow.
Yes. John McHugh was a co-sponsor of the Employee Free Choice Act. He also received a lot of campaign financing from unions over the years. I agree that people do confuse conservatives with Republicans and they do intersect as they do with Democrats.
| 246 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:13:42pm |
| 247 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:13:51pm |
re: #216 redc1c4
Red, you're tougher man than me. If I was that pessimistic, I'd have killed myself a long way back.
| 248 |
Girth Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:14:07pm |
re: #240 cliffster
Actually, it doesn't. Why do you say it does?
Maybe because it did when I typed that?
| 249 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:15:13pm |
re: #244 JasonA
I'm happy to say I wasn't one of them. In fact, Hoffman was the reason I started I voted for Owens. Otherwise I wouldn't have really cared. Does being a registered D or R mean we're supposed to think every district should look the same?
It was rhetorical, btw.
Gah. Started rooting for Owens. I might be getting sleepy.
PIMF
| 250 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:16:36pm |
To the GOP and conservatives I would say not to focus on the doom and gloom. Christie won in New Jersey and McConnell in Virginia. Frankly, the New Jersey win is big news.
| 251 |
rollwave87 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:16:37pm |
proud of the voters in NY-23 for rejecting the extremism and hate. hopefully the GOP has learned a lesson from this...WE'VE HELD THIS SEAT SINCE THE CIVIL WAR and lost it because of the teabaggers/Paulians. go start your own Conservative Party and leave the GOP to the rest of us sane people that live in the 21st century!
| 252 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:16:52pm |
re: #143 jonik
No, what got us here is the feds misusing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by trying to get people in high interest mortgages.
That's a talking point, but it was the unregulated derivative market in those loans that did it, and that started with Reagan, and warnings were ignored by every administration since. Banks were trading blocks of those loans, with no record keeping or any idea of the risks. As long as home prices kept rising, there was mad money to be made, and no questions were asked.
Congress and Clinton actually sidelined a woman that tried to push for regulation, then Bush ignored the issue too. Plenty of blame to go around.
| 253 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:17:11pm |
re: #236 BlueFalcon
NY-23 is a perfect example of why moderate Republicans cannot jettison ultra-conservatives and expect to win. Consider that this should have been every moderate GOPer's dream scenario:...
Um...no.
Simply look at the previous elections... and the previous GOP office holders from the district. Scozzafava wasn't that different from the predecessor.
What happened this year is that Armey and his group, and the other tea-partiers, decided to try and change the nature of that district's politics.
Their meddling ending up giving an (R) district to the (D), no matter how much you try to define it away.
| 254 |
Ziggy Standard Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:17:38pm |
Captain Sensible - Happy Talk!
| 255 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:17:41pm |
re: #228 Floral Giraffe
Well, POOP!
Just, poop.I had thought you were stronger than that.
My mistake.Best of luck to you,(and luck is work, BTW, but you knew that).
And may you find a shiny penny on the ground tomorrow morning.
And may it change your outlook and circumstances for the better.And may your rat pelts be worth millions.
If you can find them.{{Red}}
the rats get eaten overnight (the whole circle of life thing).
stronger than what? life? we all die. i'm just a lot harder to kill off then they had planned on. i told the director of the whole division my program is part of to GFH in a public email, politely, of course, to the point where school employees have come up to me and shaken my hand. i've called out my lib professors when they spew utter BS, and have become the local hero to all the "closeted conservatives" there, teachers and students alike.
i will not go quietly, but we all go. you can make much better plans when your tactics are based on a realistic appreciation of the situation than on dreams.
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem.
PS: the shiny penny is the initiator for an IED... don't touch it.
| 256 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:18:01pm |
re: #248 Girth
Maybe because it did when I typed that?
Perhaps it did, but I'm watching too. So I'm guessing it was maybe a DVR pause thing. Apologize for my tone, wasn't meaning to come across as being hostile.
| 257 |
BlueFalcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:18:11pm |
re: #251 rollwave87
go start your own Conservative Party and leave the GOP to the rest of us sane people that live in the 21st century!
That's exactly what they did do. And the GOP came in a distant third.
| 258 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:18:51pm |
re: #236 BlueFalcon
NY-23 is a perfect example of why moderate Republicans cannot jettison ultra-conservatives and expect to win. Consider that this should have been every moderate GOPer's dream scenario: not only were the so-cons and more militant fi-con's jettisoned, the national party apparatus even repudiated those voters by spending money attacking their candidate (and positions).
NY-23 was not a purge of moderates. The RNC, the RNCC, and the "What's up" GOP stuck with Scozzafava all the way up to her endorsing Owens, even to the point of funding attack adds on Hoffman (not that I disapprove of attack ads in general; they are a normal part of a vibrant and exciting election). Catch that: The Republican party funded attack ads on a conservative candidate (not just so-con; it is unlikely he received 45% of the vote for being pro-life, or the Glenn Beck candidate).
Now, don't take this to suggest that conservatives can live without moderates. Surely not; these election results prove otherwise. But I do suggest that moderates have an equal share in the "I'm not talking to you anymore" mentality that is pretty much destroying the big tent.
An unsolicited prognostication: If moderates and conservatives split for good, and the moderates take the GOP, it will be the Democratic Party versus whatever the conservatives cobble together. The GOP will be, as in NY-23, almost completely irrelevant.
Huh. That's a bit long winded. Try this:
The Conservative Party candidate lost because his positions did not align with the majority of the voters in the district, who were more liberal on social issues than he was.
There. Much simpler, yes? Occam's razor, and all.
| 259 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:19:08pm |
re: #247 Dark_Falcon
He's tougher than most, I think.
/I also think that if he had to switch to a diet of pure optimism it would probably kill him. I mean that in a friendly way.
| 260 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:19:36pm |
re: #242 Capitalist Tool
6" barrel?
3 or 4... i'd have to measure. the Trooper is a 6, and my Dan Wesson's are even longer, but none of those fit in my shorts pocket. %-)
| 261 |
rollwave87 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:20:03pm |
re: #257 BlueFalcon
That's exactly what they did do. And the GOP came in a distant third.
the GOP dropped out because our candidate was stabbed in the back by freakin' Glenn Beck acolytes. I personally believe Dede still could have won this race if she hadn't dropped out. the fact that Hoffman lost seems to vindicate this.
| 263 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:20:31pm |
re: #252 avanti
Congress and Clinton actually sidelined a woman that tried to push for regulation, then Bush ignored the issue too. Plenty of blame to go around.
Brooksley Born
Frontline: The Warning
| 264 |
BlueFalcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:21:20pm |
re: #258 austin_blue
Huh. That's a bit long winded. Try this:
The Conservative Party candidate lost because his positions did not align with the majority of the voters in the district, who were more liberal on social issues than he was.
There. Much simpler, yes? Occam's razor, and all.
I'm sorry for being so long. I'm always phobic that short, pithy posts will come across as offensive or trollish.
Yes, the conservative party was out of step with a majority of voters in the district.
The moderate GOP were even MORE out of step, to the tune of a distant third in a three-way match up.
| 265 |
Girth Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:21:56pm |
re: #256 cliffster
Perhaps it did, but I'm watching too. So I'm guessing it was maybe a DVR pause thing. Apologize for my tone, wasn't meaning to come across as being hostile.
No pause thing, at 10 after the hour that's what it said in the big blue bar, even though Owens has the check mark when the individual race comes around.
| 266 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:22:53pm |
re: #255 redc1c4
The shiny penny can also be a symbol for a start of a life in a country where we don't have IED's. I would hope that you can get here.
My nic is blue, if I can help in any way, other than stupid optimism.
{{Red}}
| 268 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:23:03pm |
re: #264 BlueFalcon
I'm sorry for being so long. I'm always phobic that short, pithy posts will come across as offensive or trollish.
Yes, the conservative party was out of step with a majority of voters in the district.
The moderate GOP were even MORE out of step, to the tune of a distant third in a three-way match up.
Actually, there really wasn't any point in voting for Scozafazza other than either being clueless that she was out of the race or as some form of protest. Hard to draw any conclusions on that.
| 269 |
njrob Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:23:14pm |
I posted this is the general thread, but it definitely applies here as well:
Where did Hoffman trot out any social conservative talking points? And people are mentioning that he was endorsed by Fred Thompson and Sarah Palin, but they neglect to mention that Scozzoflava was endorsed by the Republican party establishment and Newt Gingrich. It was the voters in the district that repudiated her due to her liberal views.
It appears that Hoffman's lack of knowledge of local views and Scozzoflava's shameful endorsement of his opponent did just enough for Owens to win. The Republican Party supported her and spent money trying to elect her to the end. Then she went out and supported the adversary of her party.
Carpetbagging makes it difficult to win an election, unless your name is Clinton.
Hoffman was the only person in the race that was a fiscal conservative and not a big government liberal. Remember that before you decide that it's the social con's fault for this defeat.
Furthermore, which is more important to you? Your socially liberal views or your conservative economic views? There are choices that are going to need to be made as most candidate's won't share all your viewpoints (nor mine, but I still gladly supported Christie over Corzine).
| 270 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:23:28pm |
re: #260 redc1c4
3 or 4... i'd have to measure. the Trooper is a 6, and my Dan Wesson's are even longer, but none of those fit in my shorts pocket. %-)
You have a Dan Wesson pistol pack? I've got the .357, heavy vent rib.
Nice gun.
| 271 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:16pm |
re: #215 Sharmuta
I like avanti. He's grown on me. He's not a liberal so much as he's a left of center moderate. I've been able to find common ground with him, and miss hearing about his cars.
Well, it took you long enough. :) BTW, here's a few pages of cars I've bought and sold over the last few years.
| 272 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:29pm |
re: #247 Dark_Falcon
Red, you're tougher man than me. If I was that pessimistic, I'd have killed myself a long way back.
experience is not pessimism... besides, think of the effect i have in a place as full of stupidly perky people as Lost Angels. i sully more karma before 9 am than most people do all week.
auras trashed, rainbows muddied, delusions shattered, it's all part of the free service, and that's just while i'm on break. hopes crushed while you wait!
| 273 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:34pm |
re: #252 avanti
That's a talking point, but it was the unregulated derivative market in those loans that did it, and that started with Reagan, and warnings were ignored by every administration since. Banks were trading blocks of those loans, with no record keeping or any idea of the risks. As long as home prices kept rising, there was mad money to be made, and no questions were asked.
Congress and Clinton actually sidelined a woman that tried to push for regulation, then Bush ignored the issue too. Plenty of blame to go around.
Not directing this at anyone in particular but... can we please please please stop pointing fingers over this mess. Yes, there is a lot of blame to go around. At this point I don't care. The most important thing to me in this case is that we do everything we can to make sure that we never have to go through it again. I accept that part of solving the problems requires analyzing what actions contributed to it, but using that as an excuse to make a snide remark against Clinton, Bush, etc does nothing to help matters.
We (and this applies to Americans in general) have to stop treating each other as enemies. It's incredibly counter-productive to solving problems that are affecting us all.
Oh, and I have no clue where that rant came from...
| 274 |
lostlakehiker Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:47pm |
re: #149 Dark_Falcon
Anybody on the Republican side look like they might have a chance?
CA could do worse than Jerry Brown. Unlike Gray Davis, say, who was an unprincipled opportunist with all the backbone of seaweed, Brown knows what he believes in and he truly wants what's best for California. He's often wrong about what will be best, but still, he'll try. I have a grudging respect for Brown---he's a rare breed, the principled, somewhat realistic liberal.
| 275 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:55pm |
| 276 |
BlueFalcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:24:59pm |
re: #268 Gus 802
Actually, there really wasn't any point in voting for Scozafazza other than either being clueless that she was out of the race or as some form of protest. Hard to draw any conclusions on that.
Ah, I should have clarified. I was referring to polls from before she dropped out, where she had 17% of the projected vote.
BTW, I should have added to my rambling that if the GOP had proffered a compromise candidate somewhere between Scozzafava and Hoffman, the seat would be red right now. This seat was the GOP's to lose, and they did.
| 277 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:25:01pm |
re: #241 Fenway_Nation
Wow...Warren Buffet's Berkshire Hathaway purchased the BNSF Railroad in one fell swoop this week.
Coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming to various power plants across the midwest is a major source of traffic for BNSF. Kinda makes me think that Mr. Buffet might know something about the future of Cap & Trade that the rest of us don't know yet...
They also own some tracks leading out to Aurora in and around Chicago. That particular line also runs Metra passenger trains. Like many lines around here that run both at the same time, it is triple tracked.
| 278 |
austin_blue Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:25:04pm |
re: #264 BlueFalcon
I'm sorry for being so long. I'm always phobic that short, pithy posts will come across as offensive or trollish.
Yes, the conservative party was out of step with a majority of voters in the district.
The moderate GOP were even MORE out of step, to the tune of a distant third in a three-way match up.
When in doubt, 140 characters or less...
| 279 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:25:25pm |
re: #261 rollwave87
the GOP dropped out because our candidate was stabbed in the back by freakin' Glenn Beck acolytes. I personally believe Dede still could have won this race if she hadn't dropped out. the fact that Hoffman lost seems to vindicate this.
which meant that no matter what happened, the Demonrat candidate would have been in office.
| 280 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:26:08pm |
re: #271 avanti
Avanti, always gives good cars!
Even if you don't like Avanti's!
SUCH a conundrum!
LOL!
| 281 |
HappyWarrior Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:26:25pm |
re: #245 Gus 802
Yes. John McHugh was a co-sponsor of the Employee Free Choice Act. He also received a lot of campaign financing from unions over the years. I agree that people do confuse conservatives with Republicans and they do intersect as they do with Democrats.
Yep. I think about the area of Pennsylvania where my grandparents are from. Area's been voting for Democrats pretty much since FDR. But if you tried to run someone who had Nancy Pelosi's views on the issues there they'd lose and lose big.
| 282 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:26:39pm |
re: #269 njrob
I don't want theocratic chocolate in my fiscally responsible peanut butter.
| 283 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:27:18pm |
re: #255 redc1c4
the rats get eaten overnight (the whole circle of life thing).
stronger than what? life? we all die. i'm just a lot harder to kill off then they had planned on. i told the director of the whole division my program is part of to GFH in a public email, politely, of course, to the point where school employees have come up to me and shaken my hand. i've called out my lib professors when they spew utter BS, and have become the local hero to all the "closeted conservatives" there, teachers and students alike.
i will not go quietly, but we all go. you can make much better plans when your tactics are based on a realistic appreciation of the situation than on dreams.
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem.
PS: the shiny penny is the initiator for an IED... don't touch it.
Yep, Murphy was a grunt, all right. ;)
| 284 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:27:48pm |
re: #274 lostlakehiker
CA could do worse than Jerry Brown. Unlike Gray Davis, say, who was an unprincipled opportunist with all the backbone of seaweed, Brown knows what he believes in and he truly wants what's best for California. He's often wrong about what will be best, but still, he'll try. I have a grudging respect for Brown---he's a rare breed, the principled, somewhat realistic liberal.
he's a freaking crack head. yeah, we could do worse: there's Blago who needs a j*b, Rev. Wright, and a host of others. ... spare me. hell, why not Villa-boboso, now that he's pretty much destroyed LA, or Gloria Molina? two fine upstanding American patriots
| 285 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:28:19pm |
re: #280 Floral Giraffe
Avanti, always gives good cars!
Even if you don't like Avanti's!
SUCH a conundrum!
LOL!
i wouldn't give you any cash for that clunker.
| 286 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:28:27pm |
re: #276 BlueFalcon
Ah, I should have clarified. I was referring to polls from before she dropped out, where she had 17% of the projected vote.
BTW, I should have added to my rambling that if the GOP had proffered a compromise candidate somewhere between Scozzafava and Hoffman, the seat would be red right now. This seat was the GOP's to lose, and they did.
Well, I still think Scozzafava would have won. She wasn't the perfect conservative but she still had a great deal of conservative credentials. She was a strong Amendment 2 candidate and even received A-grading from the NRA. She would have still been up for a 2010 vote but now that's not even in the cards. Instead, the end result of hijacking the NRCC decision with the conservative candidate Hoffman they wound up with Bill Owens.
Ironically of course many progressives think that Bill Owens is too conservative.
| 287 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:29:25pm |
re: #285 redc1c4
You don't have any cash to give!
It's not a clunker,
It's a collectible!
Silly!
| 288 |
SpaceJesus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:29:42pm |
bittersweet day. good going NY, but Maine? what the fuck? really?
| 289 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:30:06pm |
re: #276 BlueFalcon
Ah, I should have clarified. I was referring to polls from before she dropped out, where she had 17% of the projected vote.
BTW, I should have added to my rambling that if the GOP had proffered a compromise candidate somewhere between Scozzafava and Hoffman, the seat would be red right now. This seat was the
GOPRINOP's to lose, and they did.
FTFY!
| 290 |
harpsicon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:30:13pm |
re: #200 dugmartsch
Please give some mechanism for the Community Reinvestment Act of 1974 having such a massive impact in a 3 year span 35 years after its enactment.
Seriously.
There was a social policy put forward that everybody should be a home-owner (I exaggerate, but by how much...). Even Bush bought into this with his ownership society meme.
What the CRA did was hold banks hostage to pressure groups from Jesse Jackson's crew up to and including ACORN, since in the normal credit scheme minorities tend to be less qualified for mortgages overall - lower wages, poorer credit histories, etc. These guys basically went to the banks and said "Make a bunch more mortgages in the hood or we're going to mess with your charters the next time they come up" which was exactly what the law gave them the right to do. So the banks did indeed make some pretty lousy loans, to keep the peace - they're hardly the first corporations to have to pay something like payoffs - excuse me, contributions - to various pressure groups who can make their lives miserable. Jesse Jackson has acquired quite a number of corporate "supporters" this way. (The character "Reverend Bacon" in Tom Wolfe's Bonfire of the Vanities was pretty clearly based on Jackson, Sharpton, et al.)
When the 2000's came and Fan and Fred would buy literally anything which "conformed" (as real estate guys use the term), all bets were off. Rather than resisting making loans in bad neighborhoods (so-called red-lining) lenders realized they could make a killing. Getting things to conform is pretty easy, and if you're willing to cut corners, lie, or even invent stuff out of thin air, you can get a conforming mortgage done under just about any circumstances. Like the well-publicized story of the Mexican day-laborer in CA who got a humongous mortgage out of said thin air.
The point is that you immediately sold off the loan, after making lovely fees, to Fan and Fred, who in essence guaranteed it. Nutcase "capitalists" make money, poor people get houses they can't afford, and nobody even has to pay, since prices are going up. Worked like a charm... until prices did their inevitable correction, the trading up scheme tanked, and people actually had to make payments on these idiotic mortgages for more than a few months. Then it was realized that this supposedly finely graded paper (lots of different risk levels all carefully worked out by various serious financial corps) was in fact all trash, since a far higher proportion than anybody ever imagined was going south. (Traditionally, mortgages don't go south, since they're the last thing people skip paying. Here they were sometimes the first.)
That's how. Please note that, as others have posted, nobody forced anybody into these deals - but the law, and clearly its intent, made them something nobody could afford to pass up, since everybody won. Which is of course impossible, etc.
And as late as the summer of 2008 Barney was resisting all attempts by the Repubs, McCain et al to examine, regulate, etc. since the whole system was working so well!
It's amazing to me that this bozo has successfully obfuscated the issue to the point where he seems invulnerable... the man has singlehandedly done more damage than just about anyone in modern financial history.
One final editorial note from me - all the talk from the left about needing more regulation never seems to apply to such liberal politicians! Yikes. And the stuff they did pass, like Sarbanes-Oxley, which was supposed to make sure nothing ever went wrong, has mostly had the effect of killing NY as a financial center and driving the business to London, because it's quite possible to make a bad business judgment and wind up under prosecution. A lot of sane businessmen take a pass - who needs to take that kind of chance just to do a deal!
| 291 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:31:15pm |
I just got in from work. Who won Virginia and Jersey?
| 292 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:31:34pm |
re: #272 redc1c4
So, WHAT, EXACTLY, have you done to my Unicorn.
Inquiring minds, just want to know!
LOL!
| 293 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:31:43pm |
re: #288 SpaceJesus
bittersweet day. good going NY, but Maine? what the fuck? really?
Kinda disappointed in my fellow Americans.
How can you vote to take a right away from your neighbor that has been given to them...or why should we even be voting on what rights our fellow citizens get?
| 294 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:31:47pm |
re: #281 HappyWarrior
Yep. I think about the area of Pennsylvania where my grandparents are from. Area's been voting for Democrats pretty much since FDR. But if you tried to run someone who had Nancy Pelosi's views on the issues there they'd lose and lose big.
That correct. And that's why any party has to have a variety of candidates within their group. They can't say "this is our one set of principles and we must all adhere to them and expect to win the election." Their are nuances within political ideologies. It's like the traditional union members who may vote for Democrats yet at the same time they hold traditional values. The same is true with Republicans in which you get socially liberal yet fiscally conservative and/or even hawkish members.
| 295 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:32:27pm |
| 296 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:32:37pm |
re: #287 Floral Giraffe
You don't have any cash to give!
It's not a clunker,
It's a collectible!
Silly!
all he's collecting is the excess horseshit flying off the keyboard as he types.
| 297 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:32:39pm |
re: #291 Walter L. Newton
I just got in from work. Who won Virginia and Jersey?
Christie (R) for New Jersey and McConnell (R) for Virginia.
| 298 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:32:50pm |
re: #284 redc1c4
What Californians really need is a statewide expansion of the "smart meter" installation program.
And higher taxes.
Set the stage now for a glorious Utopian future.
| 299 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:33:15pm |
| 300 |
Dionysus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:33:22pm |
re: #286 Gus 802
NY-23 most likely won't exist after the census, so nobody really wins in the long run. The SoCons made their move, they failed. This is good. The smarter dems were probably pulling for Hoffman hoping a victory for him would cause the tea party crowd to launch several 3 way races for hot house and senate seats in 2010.
| 301 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:12pm |
re: #277 Dark_Falcon
Even though we're down to 6 major railways between the USA and Canada, Chicago's still a chokepoint. Canadian National bypassed this problem with the purchase of US Steel's Elgin, Joliet & Eastern earlier this year. Most other railways try and get around it by using Kansas City or St. Louis as alternate interchange points.
| 302 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:19pm |
re: #300 Dionysus
The tea partiers aren't giving up yet. They have about a dozen or so races in their sights for 2010.
| 303 |
Four More Tears Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:24pm |
re: #294 Gus 802
That correct. And that's why any party has to have a variety of candidates within their group. They can't say "this is our one set of principles and we must all adhere to them and expect to win the election." Their are nuances within political ideologies. It's like the traditional union members who may vote for Democrats yet at the same time they hold traditional values. The same is true with Republicans in which you get socially liberal yet fiscally conservative and/or even hawkish members.
All politics is local.
| 304 |
harpsicon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:36pm |
re: #251 rollwave87
proud of the voters in NY-23 for rejecting the extremism and hate. hopefully the GOP has learned a lesson from this...WE'VE HELD THIS SEAT SINCE THE CIVIL WAR and lost it because of the teabaggers/Paulians. go start your own Conservative Party and leave the GOP to the rest of us sane people that live in the 21st century!
Relax. Obama won this newly-crafted district (NY loses more at every census) by what, 15%... It can't be very conservative. Indeed, the number itself may not mean anything if you look up which way NY23 has voted for 100 years, ice... When I was a lad, NY had something like 45 seats and 23 was in the NY suburbs iirc.
| 305 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:34:42pm |
re: #299 Walter L. Newton
Dammit.
Then again, look on the bright side. We'll have some more conservatives to snipe at.
| 306 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:35:11pm |
| 307 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:35:36pm |
re: #270 austin_blue
You have a Dan Wesson pistol pack? I've got the .357, heavy vent rib.
Nice gun.
i've got a 357 and a 445 Rhino wildcat of the 445 Super Magnum
got get some rounds reloaded for the big'un, while i can still by powder and stuff. like as not take out an Apache if i needed to. %-)
| 308 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:35:41pm |
re: #300 Dionysus
NY-23 most likely won't exist after the census, so nobody really wins in the long run. The SoCons made their move, they failed. This is good. The smarter dems were probably pulling for Hoffman hoping a victory for him would cause the tea party crowd to launch several 3 way races for hot house and senate seats in 2010.
True. But the end result will be the increase in volume for "the purge" within the GOP. Of course that will benefit the Dems in 2010.
| 309 |
cliffster Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:36:19pm |
re: #302 freetoken
The tea partiers aren't giving up yet. They have about a dozen or so races in their sights for 2010.
There's still hope for you yet! ;)
| 310 |
BlueFalcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:36:29pm |
re: #286 Gus 802
Well, I still think Scozzafava would have won. She wasn't the perfect conservative but she still had a great deal of conservative credentials. She was a strong Amendment 2 candidate and even received A-grading from the NRA. She would have still been up for a 2010 vote but now that's not even in the cards. Instead, the end result of hijacking the NRCC decision with the conservative candidate Hoffman they wound up with Bill Owens.
Ironically of course many progressives think that Bill Owens is too conservative.
2nd Amendment is a weird issue; it seems that pro-gun stances go beyond party and ideological divisions. Correct me if I'm wrong; isn't Harry Reid also strongly pro-2nd Amendment?
And, yes, you're spot on about how progressives feel about Owens; and they're not the only ones. I seem to recall that early support for Hoffman back before anyone thought he had a chance was rooted in the belief that Owens was more conservative than Scozzafava, but they couldn't bring themselves to vote for a democrat.
All in all, even as a ultra-conservative, I can't bring myself to cry over NY-23. Owens is not "teh debil."
| 311 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:36:30pm |
re: #296 redc1c4
That one gets a downding for being hostile and nasty as well as wrong. Avanti is often wrong in my eyes on governmental issues, but he has good taste on cars and his views are never stupid. Please be polite to him, he's earned that much.
| 313 |
Clemente Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:37:05pm |
re: #291 Walter L. Newton
I just got in from work. Who won Virginia and Jersey?
Hoffman sinking down a river in Egypt...
| 314 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:37:26pm |
re: #298 Capitalist Tool
What Californians really need is a statewide expansion of the "smart meter" installation program.
And higher taxes.Set the stage now for a glorious Utopian future.
you forgot: no dark cars, no big screen TV's , more regulation of all buisnesses, and ensuring that all infrastructure repair or construction is not bid out to the lowest, but priced at mandated highest union wages for all, so we get the least bang for our buck. also, you can't buy more than 50 rounds of ammo a month.
| 315 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:38:08pm |
re: #301 Fenway_Nation
Even though we're down to 6 major railways between the USA and Canada, Chicago's still a chokepoint. Canadian National bypassed this problem with the purchase of US Steel's Elgin, Joliet & Eastern earlier this year. Most other railways try and get around it by using Kansas City or St. Louis as alternate interchange points.
Someday I hope we get some improvements to our rail system here. Chicago needs it.
| 316 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:38:40pm |
re: #305 Walter L. Newton
Then again, look on the bright side. We'll have some more
conservativesRepublicans to snipe at.
FTFY, FOC
| 317 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:39:17pm |
re: #313 Clemente
Hoffman sinking down a river in Egypt...
That's funny, Hoffman wasn't even running in Jersey or Virginia. You must have me confused with someone who cares who the hell won in NY-23. All three of those candidates were wasted flesh.
| 318 |
freetoken Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:39:20pm |
re: #304 harpsicon
We need more representatives, no?
It was in 1911 that the current number of 435 was set (according to wikipedia.) That's a century ago!!
We've more than doubled in population.
What say we up the number?
| 319 |
webevintage Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:39:20pm |
| 320 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:40:15pm |
re: #292 Floral Giraffe
So, WHAT, EXACTLY, have you done to my Unicorn.
Inquiring minds, just want to know!
LOL!
BBQ, over guava wood and lump charcoal...
then i fed it to the rats.
| 321 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:40:18pm |
| 322 |
harpsicon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:42:04pm |
re: #318 freetoken
We need more representatives, no?
It was in 1911 that the current number of 435 was set (according to wikipedia.) That's a century ago!!
We've more than doubled in population.
What say we up the number?
I suppose - but the House seems unwieldy enough with 435... Make it 870 and would they not become as grains of sand on the beach...
| 323 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:42:05pm |
re: #320 redc1c4
Ooooh Noooes!
Nom Nom Nom.
Be well, and please do let me know if I can help.
{{Red}}
| 324 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:42:40pm |
re: #318 freetoken
We need more representatives, no?
It was in 1911 that the current number of 435 was set (according to wikipedia.) That's a century ago!!
We've more than doubled in population.
What say we up the number?
Agreed. I'd say add 15 more for now. That seems a good addition.
| 325 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:43:47pm |
re: #320 redc1c4
Oh my god...that's freakin' horrible!
/You're supposed to use MESQUITE wood, dammit!
| 326 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:43:53pm |
re: #314 redc1c4
you forgot: no dark cars, no big screen TV's , more regulation of all buisnesses, and ensuring that all infrastructure repair or construction is not bid out to the lowest, but priced at mandated highest union wages for all, so we get the least bang for our buck. also, you can't buy more than 50 rounds of ammo a month.
Not that it matters, but the dark cars thing is Rush BS. It's simply that they were developing paints that reflected more heat, and that won't work with black paint. No one was banning any colors, just developing more heat reflective formulas.
| 327 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:44:28pm |
re: #306 avanti
If you buy it for me, I promise to drive it every day!
Truly, it's a work of art!
| 328 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:44:45pm |
re: #310 BlueFalcon
2nd Amendment is a weird issue; it seems that pro-gun stances go beyond party and ideological divisions. Correct me if I'm wrong; isn't Harry Reid also strongly pro-2nd Amendment?
And, yes, you're spot on about how progressives feel about Owens; and they're not the only ones. I seem to recall that early support for Hoffman back before anyone thought he had a chance was rooted in the belief that Owens was more conservative than Scozzafava, but they couldn't bring themselves to vote for a democrat.
All in all, even as a ultra-conservative, I can't bring myself to cry over NY-23. Owens is not "teh debil."
In Colorado we had a Democrat replace another Bill Owens that was the Republican governor. Governor Ritter ran as a pro-life and pro-2nd-Amendment Democrat and won. He's not made many friends with the unions at times and has gotten a good deal of support from the business community at the same time. Occasionally that flips.
| 329 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:45:32pm |
Now, in a really important ballot initiative... Breckenridge OKs pot possession... hell, NY-23 couldn't have even delivered that kind of popular politics...
[Link: www.denverpost.com...]
| 330 |
TheMatrix31 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:47:19pm |
re: #326 avanti
Why is that Rush BS? Does EVERY thing conservatives have to say have to come from Rush, Beck, or some other "conservative" source?
I read that fucking story on a local news site. Stop thinking that all of us listen to fucking radio shows.
| 331 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:47:21pm |
re: #326 avanti
Not that it matters, but the dark cars thing is Rush BS.
Great...now you'll probably be telling me that Red Barchetta was made-up, too.
| 332 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:48:01pm |
re: #329 Walter L. Newton
Now, in a really important ballot initiative... Breckenridge OKs pot possession... hell, NY-23 couldn't have even delivered that kind of popular politics...
[Link: www.denverpost.com...]
That's Breck. I've always liked that town.
Jerry Brown won the 1992 Democratic presidential primary in Colorado.
| 333 |
njrob Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:48:45pm |
re: #282 Slumbering Behemoth
So you are saying you want to have your cake and eat it too? I hate to break it to you, but the majority of the country doesn't share your views, my views or anyone else's on here. That's why there are coalitions that get together and compromise. If you're unwilling to do that, accept that all you'll get is small advancements in your socially liberal agenda and a bankrupt country with tens of millions of destitute people.
| 334 |
Walter L. Newton Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:49:31pm |
Ha... I remember Dr. Cordell warning us that these election results would not be a referendum on the Obama administration...
Well, maybe the good doctor should have warned CNN, AP and a whole lot of other news organizations, because they think it was...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
| 335 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:50:24pm |
re: #331 Fenway_Nation
Great...now you'll probably be telling me that Red Barchetta was made-up, too.
You are sooo on it.
| 336 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:51:22pm |
re: #330 TheMatrix31
Why is that Rush BS? Does EVERY thing conservatives have to say have to come from Rush, Beck, or some other "conservative" source?
I read that fucking story on a local news site. Stop thinking that all of us listen to fucking radio shows.
Ok, someone quoted Rush. From my link:
"A recent headline on Rush Limbaugh's website went as far as to state that "Tyrants Want to Ban Black Cars." The radio talk show host delighted in the prospect of those wacky Californians considering a ban that would directly impact President Obama, who regularly travels in a black limousine that is escorted by security forces riding in black SUVs."
| 337 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:51:45pm |
re: #330 TheMatrix31
'Progressive Rule #344; if one of your right-wing co-workers, relatives or acquaintences metions something that right-wing radio hosts have mentioned along with other MSM programs, simply dismiss it with a cavalier 'That sounds like something Bill 0'Rielly would say'...'
| 338 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:52:07pm |
re: #311 Dark_Falcon
That one gets a downding for being hostile and nasty as well as wrong. Avanti is often wrong in my eyes on governmental issues, but he has good taste on cars and his views are never stupid. Please be polite to him, he's earned that much.
nope.
as far as i'm concerned, he's been an asshat from day one, and so he gets what i think he's got coming to him. i'm not a parade ground display, so one ding more or less means shit to me.
my friends are my friends, and my enemies are my enemies. i am polite to my hosts, and play by their rules, since it their turf, where ever that may be, but ultimately i answer only to myself.
you have made your accommodation, which is your privilege, and i can respect it, but please do not try to impose it on me.
| 339 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:52:35pm |
re: #323 Floral Giraffe
Ooooh Noooes!
Nom Nom Nom.
Be well, and please do let me know if I can help.
{{Red}}
send beer.
or drink it.
| 340 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:53:14pm |
Aww shit, RSM's blog says he is coming down here to Florida to support Rubio against Crist for the August primary election.
Well if he likes backing losers I guess more power to him, Crist is a pretty popular Governor and also not nearly as 'liberal' a target as Dede was. He is pro-life, pro-gun, anti-union, anti-same sex marriage, etc, etc...
I honestly don't see how Rubio is going to get any real traction, the worst they can say about Crist is that he is a pragmatist who is willing to work with both sides of the aisle...OMG RINO!!11!
| 341 |
spirochete Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:53:27pm |
I bet Big Money that Red Barchetta doesn't exist.
| 342 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:53:36pm |
re: #338 redc1c4
nope.
as far as i'm concerned, he's been an asshat from day one, and so he gets what i think he's got coming to him. i'm not a parade ground display, so one ding more or less means shit to me.
my friends are my friends, and my enemies are my enemies. i am polite to my hosts, and play by their rules, since it their turf, where ever that may be, but ultimately i answer only to myself.
you have made your accommodation, which is your privilege, and i can respect it, but please do not try to impose it on me.
As you wish. I do respect you, and I'll leave this matter at that.
| 343 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:55:58pm |
re: #341 spirochete
You really wanna Roll the Bones on that one? Or are you trying to be like Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence?
| 344 |
avanti Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:56:52pm |
re: #342 Dark_Falcon
As you wish. I do respect you, and I'll leave this matter at that.
Dark, don't sweat it, it does not bother me a bit, and it's a hell of a lot better than early days for me. With that, I wish ALL the Lizards a good night. It's way past even west coast Studebaker shopping time.
| 346 |
dugmartsch Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:57:58pm |
re: #290 harpsicon
I tried to block quote this and ran out of characters two sentences in.
Have you read the law? That's a long post to completely drive by the fact hat there's no way that a law that's been on the books for 30 years could have such a dramatic effect for three years without having have had a much larger effect than it did in the intervening 27. Without a very dramatic, tangible mechanism, its simply impossible. That and the fact that the law clearly lays out that it is not intended to be used to force banks to give unqualified lenders loans they didn't deserve (that was the mortgage industry's idea), but to give loans to deserving folks in places where banks tended not to loan. It doesn't mention no-doc loans, it doesn't mention sub prime loans, it doesn't even mention ARM or CDO's or anything that has anything to do with the current crisis. It does however have some marginal ties to groups that the far-right doesn't like, and it makes for a nice, though painfully inadequate, narrative.
So to recap, law that's been on the books for 30 years, or new financial instruments that have been around for less than a decade and who's growth nicely mirrors the growth in overall mortgage lending. One has nothing to do with the crisis, and one has encouraged very bad behavior by making what would otherwise be radioactive loan terms (to bankers too! High interest rates are bad for bankers because they're impossible to repay, at least when housing prices are flat or falling) enticing to both sides.
| 347 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:58:19pm |
re: #343 Fenway_Nation
You really wanna Roll the Bones on that one? Or are you trying to be like Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence?
Win that bet and get thrust into the Limelight.
| 348 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:59:19pm |
re: #333 njrob
My socially liberal agenda? Whatever, never mind that.
Brother, it's the theocrats that refuse to compromise on anything. They do not come to build coalitions, nor to compromise. They are divisive and anti-American, and they come with the intent to make all of their positions mandatory and non-negotiable.
A couple of quotes on the subject, because I don't think I could say it better than this guy:
-Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
-On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
| 350 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:00:09pm |
re: #326 avanti
Not that it matters, but the dark cars thing is Rush BS. It's simply that they were developing paints that reflected more heat, and that won't work with black paint. No one was banning any colors, just developing more heat reflective formulas.
please don't try and patronize me with your BS.
one more time, for the record, since the knee jerk contingent conveniently forgets this every time: i don't do talk radio, in any way, shape or form.
i am a SoCal native, and i went to the SCAQMD website for the info. it w*rked with black paint, except it didn't look black anymore, hence the problem. the fact that it was a stoopid way of dealing with smog, as opposed to making it so that all heavy deliveries are made at night, or in the middle of the day, clearing the freeways for car traffic during peak hours, making everything flow better, and also thereby reduce pollution, would be too reasonable. better they spend millions of dollars on paint research and piss people off too. typical big government lieberals.
they're idiots, and so are you for defending them.
| 351 |
Dancing along the light of day Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:00:15pm |
re: #339 redc1c4
Be the best that you can be.
Drink many beers & be well.
Regards.
Best wishes to you.
Floral
| 352 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:00:48pm |
re: #330 TheMatrix31
Why is that Rush BS? Does EVERY thing conservatives have to say have to come from Rush, Beck, or some other "conservative" source?
I read that fucking story on a local news site. Stop thinking that all of us listen to fucking radio shows.
OK, it's simply BS.
| 353 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:01:05pm |
re: #341 spirochete
I bet Big Money that Red Barchetta doesn't exist.
don't rush to conclusions...
(i hate that band and those songs)
| 354 |
redc1c4 Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:02:04pm |
re: #352 SanFranciscoZionist
OK, it's simply BS.
no, it's simply a stupid idea a local, unelected governmental body came up with, that dies when the light of day was shown upon it.
ironic, no, given the subject?
| 355 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:03:09pm |
| 356 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:04:49pm |
| 358 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:06:07pm |
| 359 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:07:33pm |
re: #357 Racer X
I gotta ask. Is your handle from the Paul Gilbert band? We may have something in common. 8-)
(It's probably from Speed Racer though, which is cool as well, but who doesn't love Speed Racer?)
| 360 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:07:39pm |
| 361 |
Sharmuta Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:11:04pm |
Tonight's lesson: do not spell half a lizard's name.
It's been real, Lizards. Good night.
| 362 |
njrob Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:12:19pm |
re: #348 Slumbering Behemoth
Preachers are of course going to use their power to try to influence politicians that want their votes. Any special interest group does that. To try and separate religious groups for scorn just because you find their views offensive is inane unless you do the same for all other groups you find offensive.
I'm horrified when I find people that are indifferent to all of the tax and spend policies that we've instituted in the past 20 years, but I don't just dismiss these people because they don't share my concerns. I try to find what are the factors that motivate them, then try to reach them on those arguments if there is any common ground.
Are you willing to send Social Cons out into the wilderness just because you dislike their views even if they support candidates that are fiscally conservative. Most Social Cons vote on those issues... the fiscal issues are secondary. If the Republican party gives up social conservatism, it will be forever the minority party because more socially liberal people will support big government solutions because they prefer handouts to sacrifice and discipline. (Is that a stereotype, probably - but I've lived in NYC and NJ long enough and dealt with enough liberals that I feel comfortable expressing it.)
| 363 |
Fenway_Nation Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:15:19pm |
BREAKING! CRITICAL UPDATE REGARDING NY-23! THIS JUST IN!!!
/still crosses the Mass state line just east of Hillsdale- but try some pizza from Four Brothers while you're there. Twice as good as Two Brothers...altho' not nearly as good as the stuff from Eight Brothers.
| 364 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:15:38pm |
re: #362 njrob
You've got a point there. Eventually, SoCons and those Republicans less interested in social issues are going to need to thrash out some compromises. That event however, is not going to be a near-term event. Too many SoCons are taking a dogmatic point of view. I'd go on but I'm fading too fast. Goodnight all.
| 365 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:16:00pm |
re: #362 njrob
Are you willing to send Social Cons out into the wilderness just because you dislike their views even if they support candidates that are fiscally conservative.
If they come without compromise, and demand that their perspectives be the only ones that be respected and represented as "true to the party and nation", then my answer will always be "Hell yes".
| 366 |
Dark_Falcon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:16:06pm |
re: #363 Fenway_Nation
BREAKING! CRITICAL UPDATE REGARDING NY-23! THIS JUST IN!!!
/still crosses the Mass state line just east of Hillsdale- but try some pizza from Four Brothers while you're there. Twice as good as Two Brothers...altho' not nearly as good as the stuff from Eight Brothers.
LOL!
| 367 |
Ian MacGregor Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:18:54pm |
Did the reporters reject Hoffman because of his views, or because he was running as a third-party candidate? Probably both reasons were in play, but I am willing to speculate that if Hoffman had an R instead of a C next to his name, he would have won.
| 368 |
Gus Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:24:39pm |
New NCIS.
Congratulations to New Jersey in ridding itself from Corzine and good luck to probie Christie. It's time New Jersey and the rest of the country went back to work with the help of the private sector.
As for the fringe element outsiders in New York's 23rd your plan failed. Good luck with the unhinged rhetoric for the next year. I'll be sure to have my ear plugs on while they whine for the next 365 days about the NRCC.
Time to watch NCIS and then some sleep before I work.
Good night.
| 369 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:24:40pm |
re: #355 Fenway_Nation
re: #347 Capitalist Tool
What kind of Fly By Night outfit do you think I have going on here? The least you could do is give me and my
Counterparts
some
Distant Early Warning
.
The Camera Eye has detected Signals and Vapor Trails inbound from coordinates XYZ.
Will ask for A Show of Hands from Working Man volunteers to check for Vital Signs AFTER the smoke clears in so many Dog Years, depending on The Way The Wind Blows, so put on your Bravest Face and keep Workin' Them Angels as We Hold On.
| 370 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:25:04pm |
re: #362 njrob
Preachers are of course going to use their power to try to influence politicians that want their votes. Any special interest group does that. To try and separate religious groups for scorn just because you find their views offensive is inane unless you do the same for all other groups you find offensive.
I'm horrified when I find people that are indifferent to all of the tax and spend policies that we've instituted in the past 20 years, but I don't just dismiss these people because they don't share my concerns. I try to find what are the factors that motivate them, then try to reach them on those arguments if there is any common ground.
Are you willing to send Social Cons out into the wilderness just because you dislike their views even if they support candidates that are fiscally conservative. Most Social Cons vote on those issues... the fiscal issues are secondary. If the Republican party gives up social conservatism, it will be forever the minority party because more socially liberal people will support big government solutions because they prefer handouts to sacrifice and discipline. (Is that a stereotype, probably - but I've lived in NYC and NJ long enough and dealt with enough liberals that I feel comfortable expressing it.)
Man, you have no idea how much sacrifice and discipline I have endured. And I'm about as big a liberal as you'll find in this place. Own my own business. Work three jobs. Never taken a handout from the government. Never worked for the government.
You don't believe the Republican party can change? I believe it can. I am a Democrat who occasionally votes Republican and sympathizes heavily with fiscal conservatives who have to put up with snake-handling maniacs in their party. The country and the GOP will be a better place if you buckle down, and also endure some sacrifice and discipline, and end the AGW-denying, anti-science, anti-birth-control, anti-gay, mumbo-jumbo uneducated loon wing of your party. Kill off the influence of Focus on the Family. Kill off the Family Research Council. Remove the influence of these wicked, loathsome, and morally blackened, divisive people and you will have yourself a good party. An honorable party. A party that intelligent and responsible and hardworking Democrats like me can be swayed to consider. Swayed to vote for!There is nothing wrong with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and polices that put more money into the hands of people.
But James Dobson's organization is abominable and repellent. And giving his ilk more power WILL BE damning to the GOP. It will make the GOP impossible to stomach for my generation. Us 30-somethings who will be running the world soon. Look forward. Understand what the GOP is giving up as it chases the most superstitious and uneducated voters.
Peace.
| 371 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:30:12pm |
re: #369 Capitalist Tool
The Camera Eye has detected Signals and Vapor Trails inbound from coordinates XYZ.
Will ask for A Show of Hands from Working Man volunteers to check for Vital Signs AFTER the smoke clears in so many Dog Years, depending on The Way The Wind Blows, so put on your Bravest Face and keep Workin' Them Angels as We Hold On.
Son, you are dropping some Natural Science on my ass. Show, Don't Tell me your views. Respond. Vibrate! I feel you may in fact be a Superconductor for the views of our time. Circumstances and stress have dictated that I Leave That thing Alone and so I will. Because I Think I'm Going Bald.
| 372 |
harpsicon Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:31:32pm |
re: #346 dugmartsch
Have you read the law? That's a long post to completely drive by the fact hat there's no way that a law that's been on the books for 30 years could have such a dramatic effect for three years without having have had a much larger effect than it did in the intervening 27. Without a very dramatic, tangible mechanism, its simply impossible. That and the fact that the law clearly lays out that it is not intended to be used to force banks to give unqualified lenders loans they didn't deserve (that was the mortgage industry's idea), but to give loans to deserving folks in places where banks tended not to loan. It doesn't mention no-doc loans, it doesn't mention sub prime loans, it doesn't even mention ARM or CDO's or anything that has anything to do with the current crisis. It does however have some marginal ties to groups that the far-right doesn't like, and it makes for a nice, though painfully inadequate, narrative.
So to recap, law that's been on the books for 30 years, or new financial instruments that have been around for less than a decade and who's growth nicely mirrors the growth in overall mortgage lending. One has nothing to do with the crisis, and one has encouraged very bad behavior by making what would otherwise be radioactive loan terms (to bankers too! High interest rates are bad for bankers because they're impossible to repay, at least when housing prices are flat or falling) enticing to both sides.
The CRA merely laid the groundwork, and established the idea that loans could be political as well as economic (please don't get into how ALL loans are political or some other such leftist meme...) That the act may have said it wasn't for bad people, etc. means nothing if that's what it empowered. So many such things are ingenuous!
The proximate cause for the bad mortgage loans was Fan/Fred, admittedly, not the CRA, although to me the CRA is a kind of primal force.
As to "new financial instruments" being the cause of anything, again, they all DEPEND ON THE BAD LOANS for their very existence. The paper wouldn't have been there to slice and dice, without the mechanism set up by Fan/Fred which I outlined in my long post. In any event it wasn't the derivatives that were poisonous, it was the supposedly AAA paper they were made up of. Which, again, wouldn't have existed if people had had to loan their own money.
As for high interest rates being bad for bankers, what indeed are you smoking?! I love high interest rates, if I'm a lender; I just make sure the odds on collecting are better vis-a-vis the default rate than the odds on a lower rate with a better borrower. This is not economic rocket science - but the left wing seems to invent all these ideas that have nothing to do with the real world. Interest rates are merely the price of money. You want to buy some money for a while, you pay a price. If you're very reliable and I know you, the price is lower than if you're not or if I don't know you.
What made these particular high interest rates so poisonous is that this exact judgment was short-circuited by the law which said that Fan/Fred would buy ANYTHING that conformed. Most of the high-interest loans were to people that anybody would have figured to default, but hey, the govt is going to buy the loan well before they default (like, tomorrow!), so who cares. We make our high fees, and if they can somehow swing it they can keep the house. No skin off our backs.
The motivations here are obvious and totally predictable. All govt "programs" generate lots of people who game them to make a lot of money at taxpayer expense. Medicare fraud is a multi-billion dollar affair, even as payments to doctors don't even cover their costs. Of course, because the govt crows about how much less their overhead is compared to private companies, people get away with the fraud. It costs a lot of money for the privates to root out fraud, but then it's their money!
| 373 |
Capitalist Tool Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:38:12pm |
re: #371 WindUpBird
Son, you are dropping some Natural Science on my ass. Show, Don't Tell me your views. Respond. Vibrate! I feel you may in fact be a Superconductor for the views of our time. Circumstances and stress have dictated that I Leave That thing Alone and so I will. Because I Think I'm Going Bald.
Entre Nous, it's just a prelude, considering the world as it is, to A Farewell to Things.
| 374 |
Lidane Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:58:52pm |
re: #370 WindUpBird
You don't believe the Republican party can change? I believe it can. I am a Democrat who occasionally votes Republican and sympathizes heavily with fiscal conservatives who have to put up with snake-handling maniacs in their party. The country and the GOP will be a better place if you buckle down, and also endure some sacrifice and discipline, and end the AGW-denying, anti-science, anti-birth-control, anti-gay, mumbo-jumbo uneducated loon wing of your party. Kill off the influence of Focus on the Family. Kill off the Family Research Council. Remove the influence of these wicked, loathsome, and morally blackened, divisive people and you will have yourself a good party. An honorable party. A party that intelligent and responsible and hardworking Democrats like me can be swayed to consider. Swayed to vote for!There is nothing wrong with the promise of smaller government, lower taxes and polices that put more money into the hands of people.
Yes, yes and yes. God yes. I agree 100%.
I'm a liberal and a nominal Democrat. I work and go to school (I'm graduating in just over a month, thank God) and have applied to an MBA program in the hopes of starting next fall. I pay my own way and have never, ever taken a government handout, even when I was entitled to unemployment benefits after being laid off a few years ago. I have occasionally voted Republican in the past, but only for some local and state races and never, ever on the national level. Why? Because of the anti-science, anti-intellectual, anti-birth control, anti-gay, religious fundamentalist wing of the GOP. I can't in good conscience support any of that, so I don't.
Watching the Texas GOP lurch even further to right makes me even less likely to even pull that lever on a state level anymore since the chances are that much greater that I'll inadvertently end up supporting some 9/12, Limbaugh/Beck/Palin teabagger or a Creationist, anti-science loon that wants to roll education back 150 years. That's *not* happening, which makes my voting options in this state limited. With the GOP going far right and the Dems being all but useless here in Texas, there's not much to look forward to these days at the ballot box. =/
That said, if the GOP jettisoned those far right people and actually offered a sane, coherent platform of real fiscal conservatism, smaller, more efficient government, and leaving people the hell alone in their personal lives (since that's what small, limited government would actually entail), I could be persuaded to vote for them more often, or even support a national candidate. Run the moderates out of the party and run candidates like Palin, however, and I'm staying far, far away, which is a damned shame.
I want a strong, coherent, SANE Republican party, free of the religious and social conservatives and one that actually has real principles to run on. Why? Because there should always be a strong, vibrant opposition party to whoever is in power offering a clear, articulate argument to the contrary. The teabaggers, nirthers, Limbaugh/Beck/Palin loons, Paulians, and the rest of the far right are just a bunch of screeching banshees that have nothing to offer except to say no. That's not an opposition strategy. That's just being a whiny brat because you lost last November.
But James Dobson's organization is abominable and repellent. And giving his ilk more power WILL BE damning to the GOP. It will make the GOP impossible to stomach for my generation. Us 30-somethings who will be running the world soon. Look forward. Understand what the GOP is giving up as it chases the most superstitious and uneducated voters.
Peace.
Agreed. I hope someone takes heed. It would be a shame to see a major party fall apart because it insists on giving in to its most extreme elements.
| 375 |
Randall Gross Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:58:52pm |
Here's the real talley for tonight's debacle in NY-23:
Dems +1 vote for cap and trade
Dems +1 vote for immigration reform
Dems+1 vote for healthcare reform
Pelosi+1 Vote for Speaker
Real fucking brilliant Fred Thompson, Sarah Palin, Tim Pawlenty, I am seriously humbled by your great genius here.
| 376 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:07:42am |
re: #374 Lidane
Respect knuckles. :)
Howard Dean laid down a strategy for Democrats that worked, made sense, and pushed aside the loony left. Someone needs to be the GOP's Howard Dean. The hardass with the weird uncomfortable grimace-smile who doesn't mess around, and gets things done. The realpolitik dude who brings in smart, competent people to run races they can win.
| 377 |
njrob Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:30:07am |
re: #370 WindUpBird
The James Dobson's of the world don't run the Conservative movement or the GOP. They have their own influences and are given a big stage because they do have some influence and it suits the media's purposes to portray them in a negative light. All of the statements you just made would mean Social Con's would have no reason to support the party and that would destroy the party just as quickly as moving to big government solutions has. No reason to be democrat-lite when the real thing is next door.
You are stating the libertarian party is what you would 'consider' voting for. What kind of influence does the libertarian party have in politics? You want the Republican party to throw millions under the bus because you find their beliefs abhorrent and you would 'consider' voting for them... seriously?
As for the youth remark, I'm 31. Go figure.
| 378 |
Randall Gross Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:31:42am |
N.Y. District 23
N.Y. District 23 Candidate Party Votes Pct.
Winner: Bill OwensBill Owens Dem. 63,496 49.3%
Doug Hoffman Con. 58,161 45.2
Dede Scozzafava Rep. 7,137 5.5
There are enough votes in Dede's column that when combined with Hoffman's tally would have equaled a win.
| 379 |
Randall Gross Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:36:23am |
re: #377 njrob
The James Dobson's of the world don't run the Conservative movement or the GOP. They have their own influences and are given a big stage because they do have some influence and it suits the media's purposes to portray them in a negative light
Sorry but this very election proves your point. It was Dobson and Ilk that ran Hoffman and outspent the Dems by at least a 2:1 margin. (The Dem spent 1.6 million or thereabouts, the total for the election was 4.5 million)
Out of state investors in Hoffman: Minuteman Pac, NOM, FRC, Club for Growth Decay, Susan's List, etc. etc. etc.
But I suspect that we will suffer a few more Pyrrhic defeats at their hateful hands before the dim bulbs in the party wake up.
| 380 |
njrob Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:50:03am |
re: #374 Lidane
Your entire argument is against straw men and has nothing to do with Social Cons or the Republican party. There are no flat-earthers in the party nor people who deny science. There are members that have devout faith in their religious beliefs and will continue practicing them and teaching their families those beliefs. You want to take away their right to do that.
Plenty of scientists believe in God. A belief in science does not mean a disbelief in God. Most people in the Conservative movement don't give a damn about many of the claims you made, they resist the way those ideas have been twisted to grant government control over their lives and to limit their own economic success. AGW is a theory, one that has a lot of scientific support and one that should continue to be studied and learned about. What it shouldn't be is corrupted to support Al Gore's religious fanaticism and Revelations style predictions of the end of days unless we enact policies that will cripple the American economy and private business through massive taxation and wealth transfer to foreign nations. That is where the fight over AGW comes in.
Your mocking of tea-party attendees is repulsive since you don't appear to have a grasp of what they were and continue to protest. I went to the NYC protest and met dozens of people around me that didn't give a damn about religion, about preventing abortions, preventing gay marriage or any of the other beliefs you find abhorrent. What they did care about was putting the breaks on our drunken government's spending spree since we have to pay the bill. They know our politicians are hopelessly corrupt and were basically pocketing millions or giving those funds to their favored constituents in exchange for staying in office (legalized bribery).
Nirthers are no different than the left's Truthers, but I don't hear you attacking the left for them. They are used as an excuse to continue wielding your cudgel to bash conservatives, nothing more because you know they are even smaller than a fringe group. Even the radio entertainers you show such distaste for ignore these people because they don't want to be viewed by their listeners as legitimizing those beliefs.
Anti-gay? I guess it's cause radical states like Maine and California are filled with these Social Cons that they supported the same agenda that you think makes Social Cons so abhorrent. Maybe they aren't anti-gay, but want the ability to preserve their own traditions. Is that just the slightest bit possible?
I bet if you left Social Cons the hell alone with their own traditions instead of telling them how they had to conform to your beliefs all the time they'd leave you alone to yours. Just live and let live. You'd be surprised if you met some of these evil Social Cons. Hell, you might even share a beer with one and have a civil disagreement if you got to know them. Maybe even find a way to compromise on a candidate that agrees with most of both individual's agendas. That is as long as you're willing to sit at the table and come with a willingness to talk.
| 381 |
freetoken Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:53:31am |
re: #380 njrob
There are no flat-earthers in the party nor people who deny science.
Well, that is one of the more obvious bald-faced lies in the history of comments here.
| 382 |
njrob Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:54:44am |
re: #379 Thanos
Not sure what you're trying to say here since you start with "sorry", but then proceed to agree with me. Thanks I guess.
Hoffman came into the race as a complete unknown with only about 1 month of campaign time. He ran as a fiscal conservative and was supported by Social Cons. He almost won the race in a long time Republican district after both the Republican candidate with the NRCC and the Democrat candidate and the DNCC spent money on ads against him.
But ultimately he lost. I'm just glad McDonald trounced in Virginia and we got rid of the crook Corzine in NJ. You want to go after someone for bankrupting our country and stealing our money, start with him.
| 383 |
njrob Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:59:54am |
re: #381 freetoken
I made a nice long statement and you cherry picked one line and are going to try and call it a bald faced lie by doing what, bringing up an ineffectual nutcase off the street that calls himself a Republican and says the world is flat? How does the Republican Party, Social Conservatives or whatever you attacking deny science?
How about explaining how it is a lie rather than just making a statement that had nothing behind it?
| 384 |
freetoken Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:05:20am |
re: #383 njrob
How about explaining how it is a lie rather than just making a statement that had nothing behind it?
One word: Inhofe.
If you want more than one word, we could go through the long list of Republicans who have openly promoted religious ideas like Intelligent Design against the science of evolution.
| 385 |
njrob Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:18:01am |
Science is a method of testing hypothesis. Evolution is a theory that uses science to test its soundness. Intelligent Design does not deny evolution. What it does try to do is to co-opt evolutionary theory into religious faith. Not sure what problem you have with that.
Evolution does not disprove God. If you believe it does, then you are denying science because there is no method to test that belief and are just going on faith. Is that what you are saying?
Now if you are talking about people trying to ban evolution and instead teach intelligent design, why don't you just go ahead and say that. I'd like to see where that is in the party charter or even a dominant belief in practice by Social Cons. I've seen the occasional post on here about people trying to get Intelligent Design taught. I have yet to see evolution banned. Intelligent Design cannot be taught as science because it's using faith to prove it. The limited evidence we have about the unique nature of life does give it air, but there are still too many gaps to teach it.
Still not sure how this makes Social Cons anti-science. Lots of things to test in science. Fun to use and learn too. Tell me more.
BTW, is Economics considered a science? Because if so, then you'll have to equate the Democrat party in the same boat that you just put the Republican one in. They deny any economic reason in their beliefs.
| 386 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:40:18am |
re: #377 njrob
A) I'm your age. And people our age are waaay less likely to tolerate the race-bating, gay-bating, hateful paranoid rhetoic of our parents. We want solutions, we use the internet, we text on cell-phones, we do not fear technology and information, and conservatives of our generation are far far more likely to be internet-friends with people across the country and the world. The politics of demonizing the unfamiliar other, and smearing tar over queers and femininsts and hispanics and hoping that will carry the day? That time is ending. That tool will soon no longer be available to social conservatives. it will no longer function.
The paranoid tribalism of old politics will work less and less as the internet advances and becomes more pervasive, as we become more connected, as society becomes more transparent.
B) I am not a libertarian. Thought I usually vote Democrat, I have voted for Oregon and Washington State Republicans, several times. I do my homework, I read voting records. On the internet, this becomes easier and easier with each passing year. Republicans here make more sense. The social conservative stuff does not gain the foothold here in the northwest that it does in the South.
The GOP has gotta make the choice. Lose some voters now, invest in the future and gain reasonable, strong voters in a few years. Accept the country is not receptive to the current socon GOP platform and rebuild the party. Or! Go for broke and hope that society reverses itself and America resembles the attitudes of Mississippi and Alabama in the coming decade.
I'm betting our country moves away from the politics of Alabama. Want to make a wager?
| 387 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:41:10am |
re: #385 njrob
It would seem you have not been paying attention to certain issues that are often discussed here. That happens.
Like the Transformers, there is more than meets the eye when it comes to those who promote 'Intelligent Design'. Much more.
| 388 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:42:39am |
re: #387 Slumbering Behemoth
My favorites have always been Blaster, Ravage, Ultra Magnus, and Starscream. 8-)
| 389 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:49:57am |
re: #388 WindUpBird
Jerks like you make Soundwave cry. I hope you're proud of yourself.
/also, NSFW
| 390 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:54:11am |
re: #389 Slumbering Behemoth
Jerks like you make Soundwave cry. I hope you're proud of yourself.
/also, NSFW
ahahahaha OPERATION STFU!
You have no idea how fast I'd do The Touch or Dare if it was at a karaoke bar.
| 391 |
Bob Levin Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:57:18am |
This whole evening shows that elections are won by those not committed to any particular party. In the last Presidential election, those voters went with President Obama. Tonight they voiced their displeasure with the economy. The issue never changes--it's the economy. That's when Obama's campaign shifted into fifth gear, when the economy began its tailspin.
The GOP should have 10 talking points: 1. Our 2. Plan 3. To 4. Get 5. The 6. Economy 7. Back 8. On 9. Its 10. Feet
It isn't any more mysterious than that.
| 392 |
Right Brain Wed, Nov 4, 2009 3:34:47am |
Unfortunately the Conservatives in the Republican party will learn nothing from this 23rd Congressional Dist. defeat, albeit Hoffman, not even LIVING in the district was a bone-headed choice.
We need a third party and fourth party, like all of the other countries have. Where do secular, modern-thinking, fiscally-conservative people go?
| 394 |
eagleheart Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:26:55am |
IT WAS NOT PALIN NOR BECK THAT CAUSED THIS.
IT WAS THE STUPID FEMALE REP. THAT BOWED OUT AT THE LAST MINUTE THEN THREW HER APPROVAL ON TO THE DEM. IN THE FINAL COUNT SHE HAD 6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND HOFFMAN LOST BY 5 PERCENT. SHE GOT P***ED OFF AND DID WHATEVER SHE COULD TO UPSET THE CONSERVATIVE.
| 395 |
fizzlogic Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:38:56am |
re: #144 redc1c4
it wasn't the local bank's idea to give mortgages to lenders that couldn't pay: that mandate came from DC.
What I gather from your comment is you're blaming the Community Reinvestment Act for the crisis. That myth has been thoroughly debunked time and again. It's only propagated by RW hacks whose only motive is to blame everything on the Democratic feel-good-ism. There's a lot of reasons for the banking crisis. Placing the blame on what didn't cause it only impedes fixing the problems that got us here.
If you're really interested in understanding what got us in this mess you should consider reading the book, Bailout Nation.
| 396 |
S'latch Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:48:15am |
I am so glad that Corzine lost, I smiled a little bit. I hadn't done that in a while. It was a nice feeling.
| 397 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:48:16am |
re: #85 jonik
I'm getting sick of all the RINO's and RINO supporters who want to bash the GOP when we don't support candidates who don't represent us. The bottom line is the NY GOP gave us a candidate who was a McCain republican,"I love the right when I'm running and then I will hobnob with the libs when I'm in office".
We need candidates who support the GOP and the GOP's principles 24/7.
Keep that thought.
| 398 |
Lidane Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:53:37am |
re: #380 njrob
There are no flat-earthers in the party nor people who deny science.
So you're saying that Inhofe doesn't exist, along with all the folks in denial over things like AGW and evolution? I must have missed that.
Plenty of scientists believe in God. A belief in science does not mean a disbelief in God.
I never suggested otherwise. What I object to is the unthinking, actively anti-intellectual, anti-science wing that seeks to roll education back 150 years by insisting that religious pseudo-science be taught alongside actual science in the classroom as if they were equivalent. They're not.
What they did care about was putting the breaks on our drunken government's spending spree since we have to pay the bill.
If that's really the case, then why the hell weren't there similar tea party rallies during the previous eight years, or even before that? It's not as if government suddenly grew overnight when the bailouts happened. It's been growing for decades. If the teabaggers *really* cared about that and not just about losing an election, I might have had some sympathy.
Nirthers are no different than the left's Truthers
Who said they were? I sure as heck didn't. They're BOTH idiots as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I have even less patience for the Truthers than the nirthers. The birth certificate loonies are just in denial over Obama's election. The Truthers are far more paranoid and unhinged, IMO.
I bet if you left Social Cons the hell alone with their own traditions instead of telling them how they had to conform to your beliefs all the time they'd leave you alone to yours. Just live and let live.
You're kidding, right? It took a Supreme Court case to strike down the sodomy laws here in Texas, getting the state the hell out of the bedrooms and private homes of consenting adults. The state Board of Education here was just taken over by a bunch of anti-intellectuals and Creationists who not only want to edit the history books to take out things they don't like, but they want to dumb down the curriculum even further. Forgive me if I'm a bit cynical about the notion that a socon will just live and let live, since history suggests otherwise.
| 399 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:55:41am |
re: #386 WindUpBird
A)
I'm betting our country moves away from the politics of Alabama. Want to make a wager?
Alabama is moving away from the politics of Alabama. Artur Davis has
a credible shot at the statehouse in 2010.
| 400 |
captdiggs Wed, Nov 4, 2009 5:55:58am |
NY 23 only showed that divide an conquer works.
Hopefully, the GOP will learn from that.
The more important elections were the governors' races in VA and NJ. VA was a landslide turnabout from 2008 and NJ was even more telling. NJ, a die hard blue state voted Obama by 16 points in 2008 gave the GOP candidate a comfortable 5 point margin. What swung the elections was a 2 to 1 shift in independents who went with the GOP.
| 401 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:32:53am |
re: #247 Dark_Falcon
just keep hidden the copy of Obama's Inaugral and all Ingmar Bergman movies from him and we may be able to keep them going...
| 402 |
oldegeezr Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:33:46am |
No surprise here if you’re a student of history...
“Virginia and New Jersey Follow Historical Pattern “
It is not worthwhile to try to keep history from repeating itself, for man's character will always make the preventing of the repetitions impossible.
~~~ Mark Twain in Eruption
| 403 |
freetoken Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:35:35am |
re: #394 eagleheart
FYI International caps-lock day was last week.
| 404 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:41:56am |
re: #393 iceman1960
without RINO's like Palin and entrists like Hoffman and Soulless freaks like Armey... yes, the R would have won. Sane Republicans
See all of my above comments.
The R would have won at a canter if the Out Of Towners had let the locals get on with it.
| 405 |
KipAllen Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:44:34am |
At least it was won by a Democrat running as a Democrat, not a Democrat running as a Republican.
| 406 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:47:27am |
re: #397 Decatur Deb
from Washingtonpost.com
Voting with Party. John McCain has voted with a majority of his Republican colleagues 89.8% of the time during the current Congress
| 407 |
oldegeezr Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:50:11am |
re: #393 iceman1960
What is it with Neu Yawker’s that they allow non-residents [Hoffman] to run in districts where they do not reside?
| 408 |
drcordell Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:51:21am |
re: #405 KipAllen
At least it was won by a Democrat running as a Democrat, not a Democrat running as a Republican.
Yes, because we all know that you can't possibly be a Republican who is pro-choice.
| 409 |
dynomite Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:53:47am |
re: #273 JasonA
Not directing this at anyone in particular but... can we please please please stop pointing fingers over this mess. Yes, there is a lot of blame to go around. At this point I don't care. The most important thing to me in this case is that we do everything we can to make sure that we never have to go through it again. I accept that part of solving the problems requires analyzing what actions contributed to it, but using that as an excuse to make a snide remark against Clinton, Bush, etc does nothing to help matters.
We (and this applies to Americans in general) have to stop treating each other as enemies. It's incredibly counter-productive to solving problems that are affecting us all.
Oh, and I have no clue where that rant came from...
Shhh! You can't say that! It's no fun if you can't blame everyone!
Seriously, I agree with your post 100%. Neither Bush (either of them) nor Clinton (either of them :) ) are President right now. Get over it.
Learn from the past, live for the future.
| 410 |
Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:59:21am |
re: #406 wozzablog
from Washingtonpost.com
McCain voting party 90% isn't that disturbing. My wisecrack upthread
is just the evil Dem in me hoping the Teaparty CHEKA continues.
| 411 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:05:22am |
back of a fag packet psehpology here...
On the reduced turnout the Dem lost about 13% of his total votes from last time.
Total GOP/Conservative turnout was down by more than 50%.
Hoffman attracted half the votes of the Last (centrist) Reublican candidate.
I will guess that Owens vote was increased by 40% over what it would have been with just Dems... with Independents and the Moderate Republicans breaking to him after Dede withdrew seeing Hoffmn for what he was.
| 412 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:07:17am |
re: #410 Decatur Deb
I meant to link that stat to the guy who critiscised Mccain - the one you were replying to
| 413 |
oldegeezr Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:09:05am |
| 414 |
Yashmak Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:11:43am |
re: #394 eagleheart
IT WAS NOT PALIN NOR BECK THAT CAUSED THIS.
IT WAS THE STUPID FEMALE REP. THAT BOWED OUT AT THE LAST MINUTE THEN THREW HER APPROVAL ON TO THE DEM. IN THE FINAL COUNT SHE HAD 6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND HOFFMAN LOST BY 5 PERCENT. SHE GOT P***ED OFF AND DID WHATEVER SHE COULD TO UPSET THE CONSERVATIVE.
How does this statement remotely make sense? If she'd stayed in the race, you think Hoffman would somehow have gotten MORE votes? She bowed out and a small percentage of folks voted for her anyway. There's absolutely no reason to believe that her actions of the last few days really moved that many votes to Hoffman's opponent.
Of course, you're not going to believe that, because if you did it would make you question the electability of other candidates like Hoffman, something I suspect you're simply unwilling to do.
| 415 |
drcordell Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:14:12am |
re: #394 eagleheart
IT WAS NOT PALIN NOR BECK THAT CAUSED THIS.
IT WAS THE STUPID FEMALE REP. THAT BOWED OUT AT THE LAST MINUTE THEN THREW HER APPROVAL ON TO THE DEM. IN THE FINAL COUNT SHE HAD 6 PERCENT OF THE VOTE AND HOFFMAN LOST BY 5 PERCENT. SHE GOT P***ED OFF AND DID WHATEVER SHE COULD TO UPSET THE CONSERVATIVE.
MMMmmm, delicious flounce.
| 416 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:16:58am |
re: #394 eagleheart
in a straight race between an R and a C i' have backed the moderate R to get the win.
Dems and many independents would have fallen in behind the R to stop teh crazies.
| 417 |
Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 7:54:16am |
re: #394 eagleheart
Not a conservative. Hoffman's a theocon.
| 418 |
Land Shark Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:18:28am |
Both the Democrats and Republicans have good and bad they can take away from the electoral results yesterday. In winning the NY 23 the Dems have won a district they hadn't won in over 100 years. In winning the NJ governorship the Repubs have scored a huge upset in a very Democrat state. And the while the GOP was expected to win the VA governorship, I was surprised by the the winning margin. And with those two governorship wins, the GOP gets a badly needed boost.
Obviously, there were local situations in each contest that make any projections beyond them iffy, what's gonna happen in 2010 is still a mystery. However, there's two things I take away from them:
1- The fraudulent myth of Obama is dissipating as voters see the reality of the radical socialist behind the centrist mask. Democrat candidates in formerly conservative districts may find him a lialibility next year. Still, winning in NY 23, a formally conservative district is big for them and shows they remain strong.
2- The GOP has a way to go in making itself appealing to voters, and conservative "purity" is no guarantee of sucess. But winning two formerly Democrat governorships shows Independents could be moving away from the Democrat's radical agenda. How the struggle for the GOP's soul turns out still to be determined, and will impact how well they do in 2010.
Time will tell, still a whole year to the mid-terms.
| 419 |
exelwood Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:24:16am |
Is the fact there wasn't an actual Republican in the race of any importance?
| 421 |
teh flowah Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:29:00am |
re: #383 njrob
It's not flat earthers, even though I'm sure the minority of flat earthers identify more with Republicans than Democrats.
It's ID and AGW. You say the debate about AGW isn't about the science but about the measures used to fight it? Bullshit. Look at any number of Republican politicians who continue to peddle the lie that scientists aren't sure, that there is still debate, that there is no consensus.
To say that ID doesn't deny evolution is either supreme ignorance or you're just a filthy liar. You can choose. I suppose neither are good for you. ID says explicitly there are certain things evolution could not have done, and that there must have been a designer. Evolution says the exact opposite. Every living thing on this planet evolved. Every. Single. One.
There is no compromising of scientific theory and the bullshit religious nonsense masquerading as one.
Since I don't know whether you're ignorant or a liar or both, Come back after you've
1. Read a book
and/or
2. Learn to be an ethical debater that doesn't have to lie.
| 422 |
Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:30:52am |
re: #419 exelwood
Is the fact there wasn't an actual Republican in the race of any importance?
Yes, actually. It's highly significant. A republican could have won this race, but because some on the right think the electorate is keen for far-right populism, they had to spoil the race. The electorate will choose a democrat over a theocratic-nativist. The purge is working, and combined with results like NY 23, we can expect this trend to continue.
| 423 |
drcordell Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:35:49am |
re: #418 Land Shark
1- The fraudulent myth of Obama is dissipating as voters see the reality of the radical socialist behind the centrist mask. Democrat candidates in formerly conservative districts may find him a lialibility next year. Still, winning in NY 23, a formally conservative district is big for them and shows they remain strong.
I don't think you have looked at any of the actual polling data before drawing your "conclusions." Corzine was simply a hated man in NJ. This is borne out by exit polls that show 27% of voters who approve of Obama voted against Corzine. There is no "fraudulent myth" about Obama dissipating, Corzine was simply unelectable based on his performance.
Much of the same can be said about the race in Virginia. Deeds was a weak candidate as well. Over 20% of the voters in that race who support Obama still voted for McDonnell. Don't try and draw inferences that the data doesn't support.
| 424 |
Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:48:15am |
re: #405 KipAllen
At least it was won by a Democrat running as a Democrat, not a Democrat running as a Republican.
From the Father of the Conservative Movement:
You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight.
-Barry Goldwater
I think a conservative was forced out of this race by a far-right populist, and far-right populism was rejected by the people. The GOP might want to come up with a better agenda now, because this isn't a positive trend for the party or this country.
| 425 |
ZeroGain Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:14:41am |
I read from a blogger from that general area that one of the reasons Hoffman lost (he was predicting a loss when he wrote this) is that it's the "hill country" and that they don't like outsiders trying to horn in. Hoffman is a carpetbagger, an outsider, of course he wasn't going to win, especially because of the grandstanding support from the "valley folk". As this blogger stated, you just have to look back at a fellow named Ethan Allen to see what folks in that area think about outsiders telling them what to do.
(Yes, I know Allen wasn't in that area)
| 426 |
abbyadams Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:17:45am |
re: #423 drcordell
Upding because, in VA, I know people who were working on Deeds' campaign, Dems who were doing so half-heartedly. He was their GOP-lite candidate, and didn't fare well.
| 427 |
OneMonkeysUncle Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:30:34am |
re: #425 ZeroGain
You know, I read up a little bit more about this "carpetbagger" charge against Hoffman (because I wondered how it was acceptable to R's that a local candidate was being screwed). I found out that, no, Hoffman does not actually live in NY-23 - but only because in the grand Republican gerrymandering scheme in the 90s, the line was drawn literally around the town he lives in. It's not like he's from Westchester or something; apparently, where he lives is as much a "part" of the area as any other town. The people in the area seem to consider him a "local."
(Posted only in the interest of Truth and Clarification; I had lots of reasons to not like what happened during the campaign in NY-23, but the "he's not even from that district!" meme is only literally true, not common-sensibly true.)
| 428 |
Land Shark Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:54:37am |
re: #423 drcordell
But I did, that's why I said in my post that there were local factors that limited any projections and conclusions beyond that particular race. I know Corzine was very disliked and that was an important point. My conclusions weren't conclusions, just observations. Maybe I should have made it clearer.
But the myth of Obama is losing it's appeal. Polls show it clearly. Obviously we'll have to see happens going forward. The Dems are still large and in charge while the Republicans are still trying to figure out who they are.
| 429 |
Bob Levin Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:29:31am |
This is a general response to the points about the need for a third or fourth party, that there doesn't seem to be a party representing a conservative point of view, in my case an economically conservative point of view, without drifting into the world of the theocon.
Don't need a party, don't need to belong anywhere. Why? Because we're the folks who are the main factor in any election being won or lost--the great unaffiliated voter. No one party can count on our votes, we are a variable--both parties have to guess what we're going to do. And because of that we wield more political power than we ever would if there were another party that could count on us.
Look, for example, how the Democratic party counts on certain minority (I can think of two right off the bat) votes, yet for decades completely ignored them until election time. That's not what this great middle of the electorate wants--to be predictable.
The Democrats are in power because this block of amoeba voters drifted to their side in 2008--and they are now drifting away with a major election 1 year away. This big amoeba of votes is now a factor in upcoming legislation. More so, much more so, than another party.
Our only issue is 'how are things now', 'which direction are we headed'. We are performance based voters, not ideological in any way. This electoral amoeba is a politician's worst nightmare.
And that's a good thing.
| 430 |
drcordell Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:21:01pm |
re: #428 Land Shark
But the myth of Obama is losing it's appeal. Polls show it clearly.
But that was exactly my point. Polls don't show it clearly. Keep repeating it though. Maybe the third time you write it out it will become true!
| 431 |
Haole Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:22:51pm |
re: #6 Charles
First time a Democrat has won NY-23 in over 100 years.
Nice work, Sarah Palin.
Democrat Michael R. McNulty represented NY-23 from 1989-1993.
| 432 |
ZeroGain Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:47:16pm |
re: #427 OneMonkeysUncle
If you say so. I didn't really invest myself in this whole cluster fun. What with the sheets coming off all over the place and open politicking from people I believed had values I'm seriously disillusioned these days.
I could care less who takes New York.
| 433 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 2:53:30pm |
re: #431 Haole
poor media shorthand in the 100 years thing.
When Mcnulty held it it was a radically different boundary - the current 23rd layout back in the early 90's was held by a republican
| 434 |
ghost ryder Wed, Nov 4, 2009 3:52:23pm |
Ummm, this may be addressed in the 400 comments above but are you going to fix the Pelosi fake but accurate quote in the original posting?
"So there’s the first Democrat victory in NY-23 in more than 100 years."
Fact check: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
17 Democrats have held the 23rd district since the Civil War.
| 435 |
clevebrownie Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:29:09pm |
re: #9 cliffster
I'm too tired to read 400+ comments but the 100 years thing is a incorrect. The last time a democrat held that seat was 1993. Michael McNulty. Why would people repeat that without checking it out?
| 436 |
clevebrownie Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:39:50pm |
re: #433 wozzablog
poor media shorthand in the 100 years thing.
When Mcnulty held it it was a radically different boundary - the current 23rd layout back in the early 90's was held by a republican
Let's approach this from the other direction. What district is she talking about? I couldn't find any NY district that was held by the GOP for 100 years. The point is someone said it and it's been repeated over and over and it is not a factual statement.
| 437 |
Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 6:45:13pm |
re: #436 clevebrownie
it's become a meme, granted, but i think what they mean is that the scrap of land encompassing the counties currently constituted as Ny23 has't had a Dem in 100years.
Through boundary changes - this current 23 used to be 21, the previous 21 used to be 26... anon anon anon.
there has to be something in it - or some proper definition online.
| 438 |
Captain Amercia Thu, Nov 5, 2009 1:30:14pm |
re: #437 wozzablog
it's become a meme, granted, but i think what they mean is that the scrap of land encompassing the counties currently constituted as Ny23 has't had a Dem in 100years.
Through boundary changes - this current 23 used to be 21, the previous 21 used to be 26... anon anon anon.
there has to be something in it - or some proper definition online.
Then people should qualify that and correct it. As it is being repeated now, it is an untrue statement.
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