This one looks like a pretty good match-up. I'll watch the video when I get a chance.

Intellectual mismatch if Richard Dawkins is correct. Which is too bad, each side deserved capable, well matched intellects.

PIMF!
Forgot link
[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

Just watched the whole thing an hour ago. I thought the whole thing was pretty fair footed. What exactly does it mean for a debate to be 'intellectually mismatched?' It is not a sporting event, it really is aimed at the question at hand; is that Catholic Church a force for good in the world?

re: #3 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF!
Forgot link
[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

Hitchens is just an excellent speaker, passionate, well-informed. He also knows how to perform. I read your link, and agree - an intellectual mismatch.

Discourse and debate such as this illustrates some of what is best in western civilization.

what is this site coming to?
linking to the BBC - pssshaawww...

/// need i?

re: #5 reine.de.tout

Hello, your majesty, how are you? You got me to get out the online French dictionary!

Serious contribution -

i heartilly recomend the Jonathan Miller Series "A brief history of disbelief" - which has a lot to say on the intellectual aand spiritual foundings of America... as well as being a rolliking journey through Atheism.

Available in full on Youtube.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #4 alexzander
Stephen Hawking vs. Math Teacher
What if they debate dark matter vs string theory?

re: #6 abolitionist

Too bad this type of debate is a lost art in the American political scene. I know they were debating a theological topic; but it was refreshing watching public figures debating an issue without one single personal attack.

re: #11 jonik

it was refreshing watching public figures debating an issue without one single personal attack.

Thank You!

re: #11 jonik

Agreed!

last thing i watched from the bbc was the Great Global Warming Swindle...

Which reminds me, I read a KOS article today about Karen Armstrong's latest, "The Case for God". Yeah, I know what most of you think of the place. I still read the main posts for useful/occasionally intelligent bits & ignore the comments. Besides a) I am a lefty & b) a Kos article lead me here... ;)

If I could figure out how to post a cache link since many here don't want to give them a hit, I'd post it for you, though, as it's well thought out & written. Didn't bother with the comments (too many idiots there), but the article itself was good & I've put a request into the local library for the book (~40 copies & ~500 hold requests... I'll be waiting a bit...)

Has anyone here read this book? Comments? Reviews?

Thanks!

William

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Stephen Hawking vs. Math Teacher
What if they debate dark matter vs string theory?

Well, if we are genuinely interested in the question as a matter of 'truth', as opposed to a debating competition, then I think Hawking's likely trumping of the math teacher is fair. Arguably all debates have a degree of uneven footing - namely, one side had a more solid footing in the facts of the matter.

But if we are looking at this as some kind of sporting 'debate' then sure it is arguably mismatched.

I haven't watched the debate but my feelings on the general subject is that religion (not just the Catholic Church) have been both a force for good and a force for bad. Organized religious bodies have helped countless people over the course of centuries, but have also dominated and controlled people.

The Church, and other religious organizations are, imo, both.

Ouch. Hitch definitely knocks it out of the park but it's a softball pitch. The Catholic church is close to 2,000 years old. Can any 2,000 year old entity be considered a definitive "positive" force in today's world? I can't think of one. Consider Twain; dead for a little over a hundred years yet not PC enough for today's culture.
America: around for about 250 years. A force for "good"? You can argue that either way and make a decent case.
BTW, my whole motivation for figuring out torrents is so I can watch British tv. I just don't have much interest in the crap they're showing here.

Anne Widdencombe seemed to be making the argument that the Church should not be held responsible if it could not be more advanced than its contemporary society. It's unfortunate that it was so slow to move away from the practice of blaming the Jews collectively for the death of Christ. To his everlasting credit, Pope Paul VI began to change that.

As a part of Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI issued the declaration Nostra Aetate ("In Our Time"), which in part repudiated the traditional belief in the collective Jewish guilt for the Crucifixion.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #17 Sharmuta

Do you feel an individual spiritual relationship with God is more important than an adherence to an organized religion's tenants? More easily attainable?

re: #18 Killgore Trout

America: around for about 250 years. A force for "good"? You can argue that either way and make a decent case

I'm sure you could.

re: #18 Killgore Trout

don't get your hopes up.

outside of BBC4 and some documentary channels there isn't much on offer.

We have saturday night line ups dominated by pain in the ass variety/talentless loser shows. UGH.

British drama is in the toilet. Our comedy translates poorly to most americans - although some get it.

I think if we look at the problems of the Catholic Church as Hitchens pointed out we would see that it is not necessarily because of Catholicism but merely a reflection of human behavior. Many of them are reflective of the age of antiquity and not really applicable other than in a historical sense. If we look at all organizations we find similar transgressions of human behavior and this have been in either religious or secular. It's not the organization or the ideology but the human factor. It's as if though he is saying, "get rid of the Catholic Church and we can attain human perfection." I think otherwise even as an atheist.

re: #22 wozzablog

Black Adder Rules!

re: #22 wozzablog

Also, the Young Ones.

Q. How many Muslim extremists will it take to destroy America?

A. None, American Liberals can do it all by themselves, thank you.

re: #18 Killgore Trout

If somebody broadened that 2000 years or more to include all of Christianity, or even better religion, not that would be something.

re: #19 jaunte

And evolution...

re: #26 sngnsgt

may the assembled permit me to be allowed to perform a kindness with a debating 2x4?

re: #28 wozzablog

Aye

I'll sit this one out. I was raised 24/7 for 10 years by nuns and priests.
Their cosmology is almost certainly wrong, but they are the best people
I have ever known.

re: #22 wozzablog

I'm catching up on Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall. We've never heard of him here in the States. He seems like my kinda guy...

Heather Ale (fraoch) - A Cook On The Wild Side

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Ouch. Hitch definitely knocks it out of the park but it's a softball pitch. The Catholic church is close to 2,000 years old. Can any 2,000 year old entity be considered a definitive "positive" force in today's world? I can't think of one.

A good point I think; it is much easier to be on the challenging side when one had 2000 years of history to did at. Nevertheless, a lot of the debate also centered around policies being enacted today.

re: #24 prairiefire

re: #25 prairiefire

agreed and agreed.

i tried someone on Blackadder and it left them cold.

That being said i tried myself on The Office, gavin And Stacey, The Mighty Boosh and The Thick Of It... none of them worked on me.

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Consider Twain; dead for a little over a hundred years yet not PC enough for today's culture.

Beg to differ.

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

If somebody broadened that 2000 years or more to include all of Christianity, or even better religion, not that would be something.

re: #19 jaunte

And evolution...

Like it or not, evolution is a concept created by and supported by some of mankind, no more or less. Of course it's generically likely that eventually even evolution's pros and cons are debated and roundly condemned on one or either side of the issue... It's in the nature of mankind itself to question its own validity.

We'll always live in strange times.

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Rick Stein is pretty good on his food programmes

Kevin Mcloud on architecture and home design from Channel 4 is very good.

Time Team on C4 is great for archeology and UK history.

re: #28 wozzablog

I was reading a forum where there were a bunch of jokes like these pointing out the hipocracy of Muslim jokes vs. Christian jokes. That being the mildest of them.

I've been subscribed to Intelligence Squared on itunes since like 3 years or something. Really awesome debates. I highly recommend it. =)

Here's a thought: People in the future are going to think you're an asshole no matter how cool you are now.

re: #26 sngnsgt

(cracks knuckles...)

America - is a country established some 200 odd years... correct?

A country founded by non-confromist christians, deists and atheists...

A country that has been torn asunder by civil war over the idea that men are not born into service based on skin Colour.

I think America can survive a Gay Pride parade or two in San Francisco...

(discuss...)

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Here's a thought: People in the future are going to think you're an asshole no matter how cool you are now.

I thought it was no matter what you do someone will always think you're an asshole.

re: #33 wozzablog

Office, yes, Gavin and Stacy, no, snooze. Have you seen any of Clatterford with Dawn French? And then (bows down) Absolutely Fabulous!!

Hmm, I wonder who Dan Froomkin was talking about in this interview?

Journalists should strive for accuracy, and fairness. Objectivity is impossible, and is too often confused with balance. And the problem with balance is that we are not living in a balanced time. For instance, is it patently obvious that at this point in our history, the leading luminaries on one side of the American political spectrum are considerably less tethered to reality than those on the other side. Madly trying to split the difference, as so many of my mainstream-media colleagues feel impelled to do, does a disservice to the concept of the truth.

[Link: www.economist.com...]

He does make a good point, doesn't he.

re: #38 Summer

It's all new to me. I'll be watching them as I can now. I went to the web site and they have had great topics.

re: #37 sngnsgt

use a sarc tag and explain it in the first instance then - please.

PARTICULARLY - in the light of what has happened downstairs.

It'd be a kindness.

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Here's a thought: People in the future are going to think you're an asshole no matter how cool you are now.

But I'm just too cool to care!

/defense mechanism blues

It's a really interesting series of speeches.
I'm enjoying the discourse.
A "debate" is not what I would call it.
Still, intelligent discourse is at a premium today.
Well into the 2nd segment, now...

re: #42 prairiefire

no Clatterford - but AbFab is super wicked. Although it really tails off as the series continue to drag on

Damnit! It's gotten fartlock.

You know what has always drove Hawkings crazy?
He has never been voted the as one of of the top 10 physicists in the world..
Despite his popularity and his top selling book a brief history of time.. He isn't even close..Must I list the top ten?

re: #48 wozzablog

The image of them spilling out of a car with Pats' body suit snaps flapping in the wind, Always makes me smile. I did like Saff's African partner. He wondered how they kept the roof up.

re: #50 HoosierHoops

if you must Bohr us...

Damn. I feel for Archbishop John Onaiyekan.

Hiya Hoopsies!
How's your weekend been?

And can you fix the fartlock, this "debate" video has hit?

*smoochies*

re: #53 Gus 802

Damn. I feel for Archbishop John Onaiyekan.

Yeah, it is a bit rough. But I don't think anyone would come away thinking less of him or his individual faith; he is cleary quite a beautiful person.

Very good synopsis of what earth will look like 15 years after they fire up the LHC.

Large Hadron Collider -- 15 YEARS LATER

HH did it!
LOL!
Video 3 is working!

re: #41 Gus 802

I thought it was no matter what you do someone will always think you're an asshole.

Are you calling me an asshole?

/sarc

re: #50 HoosierHoops

I have to wonder how he would have done without the disease. That must have hurt his work. List him as high or low as you want, I'll be very sad when we lose him.

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Very disappointed you didn't link this

re: #60 Sharmuta

just shut up and sing the song...

/

re: #54 Floral Giraffe

Hiya Hoopsies!
How's your weekend been?

And can you fix the fartlock, this "debate" video has hit?

*smoochies*

I have had a wonderful weekend.. How are you doing?
I met a girl during the Colts game today that got hired as a Chef at the French Laundry in Yountville...My home town! We talked for hours!
It was so much fun..I gave her my Daddies phone number..
When you get to Napa you call my pops if you need anything...
It was so cool...Hope today finds you well

re: #60 Sharmuta

LOl, I shoulda been thinking

Wait a minute... Hitch is arguing against the Church as a positive force?
I'm shocked, shocked.

good night peeps - i threw up a little downstairs earlier (Abe Lincoln, Healthcare, tittys may have been mentioned...). Will clean up any mess in the morning.

re: #45 wozzablog

Sorry, my bad, I know better than that.

re: #62 HoosierHoops

oh and it's time to brag.. I drove my Dad's car from Napa..(Redwood road) To Yountville on highway 29 to the Washington street exit in 9 minutes..I know that's impossible ..But at over 100 mph it is possible...
How I lived through College I'll never know.. But the Hoopster has the record...I never told my kids that...but now you lizards know the record..:)

Kind of hard to watch. I didn't understand the voting thing since this was obviously taped in a metropolitan location. I believe in free will. If one doesn't like the Catholic Church then either leave the church or don't listen to them. Frankly, even though I disagree with them on issues such as family planning I believe they also do a lot of good. I can't seem to find a listing for Atheist Charities in my phone book but there are a few for Catholic Charities.

Hitchens and Fry must not believe in free will as much since they seem to blame the Catholic Church for the unavailability of condoms in Africa. There is nothing stopping them from distributing condoms in Africa alongside whatever work the Catholic Church does there since they do not control Africa. In some cases where condoms were distributed in Africa they were not used.

Also, 45% of Africa is Christian. That may or may not include Catholicism. 40% are Muslims. I doubt this debate would have been centered around the latter.

As a bit of trivia, Stephen Frye is a gifted comic who worked with Hugh Laurie - first on the set of BlackAdder with Rowan Atkinson and then in their own show "A Bit of Frye and Laurie"

. I believe in free will. If one doesn't like the Catholic Church then either leave the church or don't listen to them.

Free will and self determination are denied when children are brought up in a belief system and fed the flesh of their Saviour at an early age... kind of clouds impressionable minds.

(just a personal button)

re: #68 Gus 802

Kind of hard to watch. I didn't understand the voting thing since this was obviously taped in a metropolitan location. I believe in free will. If one doesn't like the Catholic Church then either leave the church or don't listen to them. Frankly, even though I disagree with them on issues such as family planning I believe they also do a lot of good. I can't seem to find a listing for Atheist Charities in my phone book but there are a few for Catholic Charities.

Hitchens and Fry must not believe in free will as much since they seem to blame the Catholic Church for the unavailability of condoms in Africa. There is nothing stopping them from distributing condoms in Africa alongside whatever work the Catholic Church does there since they do not control Africa. In some cases where condoms were distributed in Africa they were not used.

Also, 45% of Africa is Christian. That may or may not include Catholicism. 40% are Muslims. I doubt this debate would have been centered around the latter.

No chance of that. To even suggest such an event on Islam would create a seethefest and to hold it would trigger riots. Islam does not take criticism well.

re: #70 wozzablog

goes for all belief systems. not picking on any one group.

re: #67 HoosierHoops
Depends on what the car was...
More information is needed!

{HH}

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

The BBC has covered the topic before
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

and in aspects of assorted panel shows when it's come up as a question.

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

also

A discussion programme, Debate: Battle for Islam, was shown on BBC Four on Wednesday, 14 September

re: #70 wozzablog

Free will and self determination are denied when children are brought up in a belief system and fed the flesh of their Saviour at an early age... kind of clouds impressionable minds.

(just a personal button)

A belief system can be either secular or faith based. Either one can create a block towards free will. With religion if can be faith in a savior or having to work within the confines of the religious scripts. With secularism it can be towards the state and it too has its own set of mores and values, or scripture, that can also cloud the free will. If one says that we rid the world of religious scripture then it has to be replaced with something. Effectively that becomes law, statutes or social standards.

re: #73 Floral Giraffe

Depends on what the car was...
More information is needed!

{HH}

My Dad's Grey Cadillac...If one of my kids did that I would kick their ass...
/My passenger was a really cute girl..Jeez I was so stupid back then...
If my kids knew this I'd be in so much trouble..
*wink*

Religious Groups in Africa Map

re: #74 wozzablog

The BBC has covered the topic before
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

and in aspects of assorted panel shows when it's come up as a question.

I stand corrected.

I can sell this info to them...
Or, you can pay me to keep a secret!

I saw the COOLEST car today!
V12, and it was British racing green
[Link: www.sportscarmarket.com...]
VROOM! VROOM!

re: #76 Gus 802

if you bring a child up and never mention a God - it is a secular household, but one that does not deny the existence of God.

If you bring a child up Atheist you say there definitely is no god from an early age - or give gentle hints when awkward questions are asked.

If one says that we rid the world of religious scripture then it has to be replaced with something. Effectively that becomes law, statutes or social standards.

I'm not saying Ban all religion - but - what is wrong when you replace the thrice translated words handed to Moses from one concept with the words on paper from another concept of blin justice and a basic human right to life under a charter?

It's all high concept words and paper.

I'm secular to the core. Religion is for highdays and holidays - and privately or in church at that.

AIDS fight hurt by Egyptian men’s shunning of condoms

Egypt is not a Catholic country as we all know and on the African continent.

Also see AIDS and intravenous drug users in Egypt.

5% were using condoms with ordinary and casual sex partners. DISCUSSION & CONCLUSIONS: IDUs in Egypt are still practicing unsafe sex. They rarely use condoms. The findings reveal a high risk of HIV spread among IDUs and their sex partners. This problem should be solved through information, education and communications, with distribution and promotion of condom use by IDUs.

re: #81 wozzablog

it's all - in the end - just attempts to codify good behaviour.

Except - the state's version doesn't demand giving up watching the Football on a sunday.

/

re: #82 Gus 802

Other areas of the continent are strongly catholic - as are some areas in the far east faced by the problems of HIV/AIDS.

re: #81 wozzablog

if you bring a child up and never mention a God - it is a secular household, but one that does not deny the existence of God.

If you bring a child up Atheist you say there definitely is no god from an early age - or give gentle hints when awkward questions are asked.

I'm not saying Ban all religion - but - what is wrong when you replace the thrice translated words handed to Moses from one concept with the words on paper from another concept of blin justice and a basic human right to life under a charter?

It's all high concept words and paper.

I'm secular to the core. Religion is for highdays and holidays - and privately or in church at that.

I don't see anything wrong with it either and I'm an atheist. It's all concept and words but it also builds a moral construct regardless. I think however that it's foolish to blame the Catholic Church for "all the ills of the world" since they play a role alongside other religions, ideas, ideologies, etc.

re: #84 wozzablog

Other areas of the continent are strongly catholic - as are some areas in the far east faced by the problems of HIV/AIDS.

Right. But men in Africa don't shun condoms because of their religion. I guess that's my point.

re: #85 Gus 802

i don't only blame the Catholics... there is more than enough blame to go around.

re: #87 wozzablog

i don't only blame the Catholics... there is more than enough blame to go around.

I didn't say you did. I was talking about the debate.

re: #86 Gus 802

It's horses for courses - but the religious areas have to be treated differently to where the problems are blind ignorance and endemic rape.

re: #89 wozzablog

not that the religious areas don't suffer both problems too

re: #88 Gus 802

The debate was on Catholoscism - so - the approbrium goes there in this instance. Have a debate on something else and thats where the problems will lie too.

re: #78 Gus 802

re: #78 Gus 802

Is there a map of the Catholic faith?
Just for, comparison?

re: #89 wozzablog

It's horses for courses - but the religious areas have to be treated differently to where the problems are blind ignorance and endemic rape.

The latter, rape, being the worst. Especially with the roaming soldiers and it reaches epidemic proportions.

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

re: #78 Gus 802

Is there a map of the Catholic faith?
Just for, comparison?

That's the only one I found and it just indicates Christian.

re: #94 Gus 802

Thanks for looking!

re: #94 Gus 802

safe to assume the portugese and french colonies will be largely catholic under the christian banner

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

Here's a simplified one:
Image: Catholics%20in%20the%20world.jpg

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

More detail here: Image: small-image.jpg

re: #97 jaunte

Here's a simplified one:
[Link: communio.stblogs.org...]

Looks like they included Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman.

re: #99 Gus 802

I don't think I've ever seen Africa defined that way before.

ok, an hour later.

good night.

re: #40 wozzablog

The USA can very well survive that.

And in fact the more we accept each other and work together, the stronger we are as a country and as a people.

re: #100 jaunte

I don't think I've ever seen Africa defined that way before.

That might explain the 12 percent figure. Seems low since I saw 45% which might be a tad high.

re: #102 Ojoe

that wasn't meant to be a nonsequitur on my part - but thanks for agreeing with it :-)

Africa Is A Lot Bigger Than Most Of Us Realize

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

The Vatican Home Page, since you asked.
Compendium of the Catechism (recently revised too.)

This should keep you busy !

BBL — Tomorrow, actually. Good Night All.

re: #106 Ojoe

The Vatican Home Page, since you asked.
Compendium of the Catechism (recently revised too.)

This should keep you busy !

BBL — Tomorrow, actually. Good Night All.

Be well

What Rich People Eat At Restaurants: Food Purchased By Russian Billionaire Roman Abramovich For Himself And Five Friends

The really cool part? The waiter got a $7328.20 tip!

re: #23 Gus 802

I think if we look at the problems of the Catholic Church as Hitchens pointed out we would see that it is not necessarily because of Catholicism but merely a reflection of human behavior. Many of them are reflective of the age of antiquity and not really applicable other than in a historical sense. If we look at all organizations we find similar transgressions of human behavior and this have been in either religious or secular. It's not the organization or the ideology but the human factor. It's as if though he is saying, "get rid of the Catholic Church and we can attain human perfection." I think otherwise even as an atheist.

The root might be the human factor, however, the problem with religion or any form of ideology is that they amplify the human factor. If I am an asshole sitting in King's chair, I can for instance, ban condoms in my kingdom. People, even though hesitant, would have to follow in fear of very real punishment.

On the other hand, if I happen to be an asshole in Pope's chair, it is only then that millions halfway across the world are going to willingly and/or out of imaginary fears throw away the condoms.

Ideology allows that human factor to spread its menace rapidly, beyond walls and across borders with little effort.

But I do agree that a world without religion would still not be perfect as we'll find reasons to do each other wrong regardless.

Mortality Over 300 Days: H1N1 “Swine Flu” In Perspective

ooh!

“Hey Jude” Flowchart

re: #110 Racer X

Your on a roll tonight!

[Link: www.dump.com...]

Which age is your preference?

Racer X's linky...

Stare At The Dot

Trippy!

re: #110 Racer X

Mortality Over 300 Days: H1N1 “Swine Flu” In Perspective

ooh!

Very good data. Useful for keeping things in perspective.

re: #111 Racer X

“Hey Jude” Flowchart

LOVE the "na" on perpetual loop. lol

re: #109 brucee

The root might be the human factor, however, the problem with religion or any form of ideology is that they amplify the human factor. If I am an asshole sitting in King's chair, I can for instance, ban condoms in my kingdom. People, even though hesitant, would have to follow in fear of very real punishment.

On the other hand, if I happen to be an asshole in Pope's chair, it is only then that millions halfway across the world are going to willingly and/or out of imaginary fears throw away the condoms.

Ideology allows that human factor to spread its menace rapidly, beyond walls and across borders with little effort.

But I do agree that a world without religion would still not be perfect as we'll find reasons to do each other wrong regardless.

The Pope may rule by decree but that doesn't mean every Catholic is going to adhere to his ever given rule along with those set forth by the Holy See. This includes metropolitan American Catholics and those in South America which make up the largest demographic of the Catholic Church. As for the South Americans, being one myself and a former Catholic, I would say that the majority of them are not the most blindingly faithful to his word as Hitchens and other would lead you to believe.

We are then perhaps not to be saved by the pope nor by Christopher Hitchens. People are rather rational and well advanced in this modern world to make decisions for themselves and they do so every day. I would also add that while the intellectuals may like to think that religions are controlling specifically the United States I would counter that by saying that television is the religion of choice for America. Yet even then people make their own choices based on their own specific reality.

re: #114 Racer X

I liked the unwashed car art!!

Dog Jumps To The Rescue

AWWW!

re: #118 Stanley Sea

[Link: www.dump.com...]

That's what I call funny!

relief has arrived...where do I deploy?

re: #121 albusteve

Where you're needed most?

On this tulip thread, while the Dutch often seem to make little else but cheese, here's a link.
For a Lost Soldier

Hitchens before 911.

Just when I think Andrew Sullivan has completed his long downward spiral, he sinks lower. Hard to imagine his mind working in any stranger way...
[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

two lips?

Racer X - great site! Here's a map of every space mission from the last 50 yrs:

[Link: www.dump.com...]

Hitchens on Che Guevara:

'His death meant a lot to me, and countless like me, at the time. He was a role model, albeit an impossible one for us bourgeois romantics insofar as he went and did what revolutionaries were meant to do - fought and died for his beliefs.'

for any football nerds online...the Cowboys just put a woopin on the hated Eagles...in Philly...therefore I'm juiced

Have to say... Bob McDonnell is pretty smooth.
He might not stop at the governor's chair.

re: #127 Stanley Sea

Racer X - great site! Here's a map of every space mission from the last 50 yrs:

[Link: www.dump.com...]

I was just looking at that!

Finally figured out a way to capture as a jpg.

re: #127 Stanley Sea

Racer X - great site! Here's a map of every space mission from the last 50 yrs:

[Link: www.dump.com...]

Cool map. No plans for Eris, I see. Good to see we're still keeping an eye Pluto.

Thank you, Mr. Johnson. That was extremely enjoyable.

Interesting debate.

US Military Spending Vs. The World, 2008

Prison Population By Country

Hey, I have an idea.. . . .

re: #68 Gus 802

Kind of hard to watch.

Well, I've only watched the first part... but I'm finding it hard to continue.

The key problem with this debate is that the principal representative of the "pro" position doesn't seem comfortable in his own theological skin.

Secondly, it is erroneous to say that the RC church is 2000 years old. The emergence of the current RC structure is post Constantine, and even then one could say that the Protestant revolution fundamentally altered the concept of the RC church as we understand it in the West.

I'm thinking that the proposition at the center of this debate is a stand-in for "Is Christianity a positive force in the world", but that may have been avoided intentionally since there are so many variants of Christianity that it would be hard to find just two people to argue the "pro" position and not have someone object to too narrow of a definition of the subject at hand. I'm sure that Hitchens would have had no hesitation taking on Christianity instead of just the subset (RC church.)

re: #136 freetoken

Well you could crunch the numbers and compare the deaths from the RCC and communism. Or if that is unfair, all deaths attributed to religions compared to all deaths from communism.

*pin drop*

re: #138 Sharmuta

*pin drop*

I hear the sound of Christmas carols in the distance...

re: #138 Sharmuta

*pin drop*

I'm still watching. I just haven't had much to say.

Without Catholicism, where would all the goths come from?

Catholicism is a force for good.

I think eventually the current Roman Catholic Church will end up becoming something a little more like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, which split off from the RCC shortly after WW2. They were ahead on a few things, such as a vernacular liturgy, and they have some other ideas that I see as being inevitable (allowing divorce, allowing non-celibate clergy).

It will definitely have to wait until after Benedict XVI dies though. Maybe even until another ecclesiastical conference is called.

re: #142 Raryn

I think eventually the current Roman Catholic Church will end up becoming something a little more like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, which split off from the RCC shortly after WW2. They were ahead on a few things, such as a vernacular liturgy, and they have some other ideas that I see as being inevitable (allowing divorce, allowing non-celibate clergy).

It will definitely have to wait until after Benedict XVI dies though. Maybe even until another ecclesiastical conference is called.

ecumenical conference*

re: #80 Floral Giraffe

I can sell this info to them...
Or, you can pay me to keep a secret!

I saw the COOLEST car today!
V12, and it was British racing green
[Link: www.sportscarmarket.com...]
VROOM! VROOM!

Nobody doesn't like Jaguar XKEs. The XKE is one of the sexiest cars ever to exist. :D It's like a James Bond spaceship.

Very poor performance by the Bishop and the MP. Heck, I could have done a better job... and I'm not a RC.

Hell... Santa could have done a better job than the "pro" side... even if he were drunk...

re: #142 Raryn

I think eventually the current Roman Catholic Church will end up becoming something a little more like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church, which split off from the RCC shortly after WW2. They were ahead on a few things, such as a vernacular liturgy, and they have some other ideas that I see as being inevitable (allowing divorce, allowing non-celibate clergy).

It will definitely have to wait until after Benedict XVI dies though. Maybe even until another ecclesiastical conference is called.

This is interesting, from the wikipedia article:
When, in the following year (1945), Duarte Costa denounced the Odessa Operation, which was allegedly organized by the Vatican in order to facilitate the escape of Nazi officers, he was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII. One month later on August 18, he formed the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (ICAB)

I enjoyed this. The bishop didn't seem to realise that it was a debate... but to be fair, he alone didn't receive any points to argue against. I would have liked to see his response to Hitchens and Fry.

As for me, I'm certain that the Catholic Church can be a force for good in the world, but am still unconvinced as to whether it is.

re: #147 Shiplord Kirel

This is interesting, from the wikipedia article:
When, in the following year (1945), Duarte Costa denounced the Odessa Operation, which was allegedly organized by the Vatican in order to facilitate the escape of Nazi officers, he was excommunicated by Pope Pius XII. One month later on August 18, he formed the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church (ICAB)

The veracity of various claims about ODESSA is iffy. I've never taken the time to research into it further than just the Wikipedia article. No doubt various Nazi officials did flee to South America, but the extent of an organized conspiracy to do it is debatable.

re: #148 shai_au

The bishop didn't seem to realise that it was a debate...

My suspicion is that his belief system precludes him from really taking this form of debate seriously. He is there more to show the flag, so to speak.

re: #68 Gus 802

Kind of hard to watch. I didn't understand the voting thing since this was obviously taped in a metropolitan location. I believe in free will. If one doesn't like the Catholic Church then either leave the church or don't listen to them. Frankly, even though I disagree with them on issues such as family planning I believe they also do a lot of good. I can't seem to find a listing for Atheist Charities in my phone book but there are a few for Catholic Charities.

Hitchens and Fry must not believe in free will as much since they seem to blame the Catholic Church for the unavailability of condoms in Africa. There is nothing stopping them from distributing condoms in Africa alongside whatever work the Catholic Church does there since they do not control Africa. In some cases where condoms were distributed in Africa they were not used.

Also, 45% of Africa is Christian. That may or may not include Catholicism. 40% are Muslims. I doubt this debate would have been centered around the latter.

I know it's really late to reply, and I apologize if you never actually read this and have a chance to respond. =)

However...

I would say that this is a very Westernized and unrealistic view of Africa at large. While it is true (as someone here pointed out in this thread) that Africa is bloody huge, and that it is so big that generalizations are basically completely unfair and unrealistic, it is also true that the religious communities there have an incredibly huge sway on the beliefs and customs of their people. Much like many parts of the Muslim world, Religion is the culture at large. We tend to separate our religious beliefs and general culture, but this is not the case in much of the rest of the world. For many, organized religion, dogma, conservative "values" in their society, and everything else is religiously based.

So when Hitchens and Fry say that the Catholic Church (as well as Muslim preachers and many others, yes I know) are responsible for the deaths of millions because they preach that condoms should not be used, they are correct. Your view of free will speaks volumes about this. I completely agree with you that we all have free will, but it is dependent on many other factors. In many parts of the world, your free will doesn't extend to things considered abhorrent or blasphemous by the society around you - not that they don't have people in every culture who does things against dogmatic teaching; it is just extremely rare and cannot be used as an example of swaying the culture around them in any significant way.

In a sense, you could compare it to the blame that we associate with the leaders of the Church during the Inquisition or during pogroms against the Jews. Yes, the public at large who were the mob are to blame, but they are brought up in a society where this is not considered to be a crime against humanity. On the other hand, many of their leaders knew (sometimes) a little better and were the instigators of those crimes.

Likewise, when a secular group goes into a Catholic area of Africa and starts distributing condoms, they have almost zero chance of being listened to because of the dictates of the Church.

It's not that the people are necessarily stupid or born idiots. They just never learned any other point of view and learned, in fact, to reject this particular point of view in very strenuous ways.

If the Church came out today and approved of the use of condoms and gave their blessings to it, I can guarantee you that acceptance in those communities in Africa would be widespread in a very little time.

The Church, in our society, has very little hold over our actions. But remember that in other parts of the world, they still have tremendous power over what people think, say, and do.

re: #144 WindUpBird

I had speaks with you downstairs.

re: #150 freetoken

My suspicion is that his belief system precludes him from really taking this form of debate seriously. He is there more to show the flag, so to speak.

What precludes him from taking it seriously? His beliefs as a Catholic, or his position within the hierarchy of the Church? If it's the former... well, there are Catholics who seriously debate this kind of stuff, even against atheists.

I know some of you here might not like Sully all that much, but I really enjoyed his conversation with Sam Harris about faith.

re: #153 shai_au

Well, if he is a Bishop his concern mainly is in managing his flock. The academicians in the various Catholic orders may love to debate atheists, etc., but it is clearly not his thing.

Wow, the final numbers where pretty brutal.

I'd like to see a debate to determine whether Hitchens is a regular douche bag or an actual Uber douche as I believe.

#23 Gus 802

I think if we look at the problems of the Catholic Church as Hitchens pointed out we would see that it is not necessarily because of Catholicism but merely a reflection of human behavior. Many of them are reflective of the age of antiquity and not really applicable other than in a historical sense. If we look at all organizations we find similar transgressions of human behavior and this have been in either religious or secular. It's not the organization or the ideology but the human factor. It's as if though he is saying, "get rid of the Catholic Church and we can attain human perfection." I think otherwise even as an atheist.

Not a reflection of human behavior. Endemic to an organization that considers itself to have infallible members which allows only 1/2 the human species to serve in its hierarchy. It's an ipso facto negation of said infallibility.

If you like good brain food like this, I'd recommend Fora.Tv

such as Marcus Chown on quantum physics, string theory and physics in general

also Brian Greene's "Big Idea"

Plus tons of discussion, debates and seminars on everything from religion to physics.

Top BBC radio headline a moment ago :

"World leaders past and present have gathered in Berlin today to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall...great victory for freedom...end of the Cold War"

Gorbachev, Lech Walesa, all the current European leaders. But not Obama, of course.

...

Truman policy in 1948 : Bust that Russian blockade of Berlin, I don't care how many palnes it takes

Kennedy 1963, just a fewmonths before his death - "Ich bin ein Belriner"

Reagan 1987 "Mr Gorbachev - Tear Down This Wall

...
Obama 2009 - "I am too busy to attend" - turning down the German Chancellor's invitation.

"Ich bin beschaftigt" just doesn't have the same ring of strong alliance somehow.

...

Will Obama ever grow into his role of leader of the free world ?

Or doesn't he see that as his role ?

As Le Parisien puts it today - "Obama, le grand absent"

[Link: www.leparisien.fr...]

Le Monde has "L'absence de Barack Obama chagrine Angela Merkel"

"[Link: www.lemonde.fr...]

re: #16 alexzander

Not directly in response to your post, but I think it's interesting.

"Any 2000 year old institution", I guess that can apply to any 200 year old one, any 20 year old one, any 2 year old one...if you go looking for dirt, guess what you find?

Second, it's kind of hard to prove a negative. How would you envision a world without the Catholic church? I guess you can go Nietzsche and assume all humans would be supermen--gods unto themselves. How to measure morality and justice in that world? Or on a more practical note, the crusades would have gone to the Muslims. There would be no France, UK, or maybe even US. No enlightenment, no shinning city on a hill, no individual liberties. We'd be a world of brutish dictators. You couldn't start to measure all the injustices.

Third, in a long ago thread, I mentioned a keen fondness for debating high school math and science teachers. They give science a bad name. I had a pervert sub-renter at UCI for about two weeks. He was a coprophiliac (among other faults) and admitted to such. His reasoning was "that you can't just love your partner, you have to love every part of them". Despite throwing him out on the street, there actually was a little bit of wisdom. You can't just love science, you have to love every bit of science. High school science teachers who claim not to believe in the existence of "fundamental truths about the universe" outside of the scientific method they hold so dear, don't fully understand what they are championing. That makes them cheerleaders, not scientists.

Just the Catholic church, eh? Not Christianity in general?

re: #159 JohninLondon

Me, I wonder when Americans will realize that they alone automatically consider their president to be anything other than their president. How many people in the "free world" (however you define that nebulous entity) consider the person who happens to occupy the White House at any given time to be their "leader"? I can't remember hearing very many Europeans use the title "leader of the free world" to describe any president I ever voted for or against, including Reagan. Do you actually think the "free world" saw the incompetent Dubya Dumbass as its leader?

I understand you're an American living in London. May I suggest that you take an informal street poll? Go out and ask the first 100 people you meet whether or not they think there exists a position called "leader of the free world". I'm betting you'll get lots of Cockney laughs and blank stares, if not hoots of derision.

re: #68 Gus 802

I can't seem to find a listing for Atheist Charities in my phone book but there are a few for Catholic Charities.

That is so good I'm going to steal it.

Yes, there are Catholic Charities and United Jewish Charities and Muslim charities and all kinds of other faith-based charities that meet any number of needs. When atheists say they can lead a moral life without God, I fully agree with them. When they start putting their monies where their mouths are, I'll really be impressed. Of course there is no unified Atheism-with-a-capital-A, but that wouldn't stop someone from creating a charity organization. Imagine a hurricane whips through town and the next morning you see a kitchen tent giving out soup and blankets with a banner saying "United Atheist Charities of Louisiana".

Until then, if I'm displaced by an Act of God, I'll probably end up going to the local parish basement for help...

re: #163 Cato the Elder

While no expert (and too lazy/time constrained to look into it at the moment) I believe there are many charities that profess no particular religious affiliation (aka secular charities). I don't think an atheist would be inclined to label their charity atheist if they did create one because they don't view atheism as a religion but as an absence of belief in deities.
That doesn't mean they wouldn't be part of some organization with certain philosophies/activities they like; but rather they would choose not to be part of some organization that claims authority from some mythical head-of-it-all boss that they have no evidence in support of.

re: #164 ED 209

While no expert (and too lazy/time constrained to look into it at the moment) I believe there are many charities that profess no particular religious affiliation (aka secular charities). I don't think an atheist would be inclined to label their charity atheist if they did create one because they don't view atheism as a religion but as an absence of belief in deities.
That doesn't mean they wouldn't be part of some organization with certain philosophies/activities they like; but rather they would choose not to be part of some organization that claims authority from some mythical head-of-it-all boss that they have no evidence in support of.

My point is that if capital-A Atheists (they exist, some of them on this thread, at least to judge by some people's preferred orthography) want to make a stand for their beliefs (and atheism, according to the Supreme Court, is for legal purposes a belief system, not a provable scientific position), then a registered nonprofit organization called "Atheist Charities" or something similar with visibility at disasters etc. would be intriguing. I'd welcome the sight.

Atheists/agnostics/nonbelievers are gaining more prominence and greater numbers in society, there are polls to prove it, and they have their own organizations. Since one of the biggest objections to atheism (a false one, in my view, but it's always there) is that it leads to amorality, it would be interesting to see them step up to the plate in a visible way with regard to charity.

re: #163 Cato the Elder

It could be that atheists do actually contribute to charities, but that they aren't so vain as to need to put their label on it.

re: #166 Naso Tang

It could be that atheists do actually contribute to charities, but that they aren't so vain as to need to put their label on it.

That stretches credulity a bit. Human vanity is a constant, and some of the vainest people I know are atheists.

When they start putting their monies where their mouths are, I'll really be impressed.

Here you go. I recommend a nice dish of crow to go along with your being really impressed.

re: #168 peterb

When they start putting their monies where their mouths are, I'll really be impressed.

Here you go. I recommend a nice dish of crow to go along with your being really impressed.

Found that already. It's almost two years old, and it lists a bunch of charities that one could donate to if one were so inclined. Nothing about budgets, income, outlays, or anything else on that page. Just a list of potential donees.

Tell you what - I'll wait to be impressed till you show me results, not a list of links.

re: #162 Cato the Elder

Me, I wonder when Americans will realize that they alone automatically consider their president to be anything other than their president. How many people in the "free world" (however you define that nebulous entity) consider the person who happens to occupy the White House at any given time to be their "leader"? I can't remember hearing very many Europeans use the title "leader of the free world" to describe any president I ever voted for or against, including Reagan. Do you actually think the "free world" saw the incompetent Dubya Dumbass as its leader?

I understand you're an American living in London. May I suggest that you take an informal street poll? Go out and ask the first 100 people you meet whether or not they think there exists a position called "leader of the free world". I'm betting you'll get lots of Cockney laughs and blank stares, if not hoots of derision.

I am not an American.

But I remember Europe being defended for decades against the Soviet Union. It is an essential part of recent history for all in Europe - and many people here that I know find it decidedly odd that Obama is too busy to underline that point. Sure, there is a lot of anti_US feeling in Europe, so it does no harm to remind is here of the debt we owe.

And it all looks like a gratuitous insult to Merkel, at a time when her party is looking for a way to allow German troops play a mor active part in Afghanisatan.

Point 1: If you are a fan of "British humor" in the vein of Fawlty Towers, Black Adder, Are You Being Served?. etc... you owe it to yourself to scour the intertubes for episodes of Fry and Laurie.

Point 2: If you are a fan of the American TV show "House", you owe it to yourself to scour the intertubes for episodes of Fry and Laurie.

Point 3: I can't for a moment imagine how being forced to listen to Ann Widdencombe arguing for any idea at all wouldn't immediately induce the listener to take up arms in belligerent opposition. I used to think Hillary Clinton was the most grating and unlistenable public speaker in current service, but it seems Widdencombe has overtaken her lead.

re: #169 Cato the Elder
Arguing about particular atheist charities is pointless- an atheist would become involved with a charity because of it's mission, not because of atheism (Though they might be put off by a blatantly religious charity if it's belief's were strongly expressed in the charity it provided.)

An atheist is not driven to action from his belief in atheism, but from what is seen as needing to be done. Not driven by a need to toady up to a Deity to ensure a good after life they are driven only by mundane considerations- empathy and compassion.

I know many religious people think that atheism is another religion, it is not. It would not occur to an atheist to label their charity the same as a religious institution would, they wouldn't see the point.

Ho hum.

Yes, I'm sure it's all quite boring to you intellectual sophisticates.

No, just highly unimpressive to this Catholic thinker.

re: #167 Cato the Elder

That stretches credulity a bit. Human vanity is a constant, and some of the vainest people I know are atheists.

You missed my point, but I have no doubt you are correct in the other regard.

re: #175 Cato the Elder
What does that mean, "Catholic thinker"? You've cloaked your reason in dogma and are not compelled to consider ideas that are not supported by it or support it? Do you think that your catholic reasoning would be compelling to anyone not catholic? Arguments from authority are not nearly as compelling as those from reason and logic. But I'm sure you've heard it all from those much better at expressing the atheist viewpoint then I am and found none of it compelling. Imagine my surprise.

re: #177 ED 209

What does that mean, "Catholic thinker"? You've cloaked your reason in dogma and are not compelled to consider ideas that are not supported by it or support it? Do you think that your catholic reasoning would be compelling to anyone not catholic? Arguments from authority are not nearly as compelling as those from reason and logic. But I'm sure you've heard it all from those much better at expressing the atheist viewpoint then I am and found none of it compelling. Imagine my surprise.

Imagine my lack of surprise at your lack of surprise.

And then imagine my lack of respect for what you would seemingly consider to be conclusive reasoning and infallible logic.

Augustine is long dead but he's still running circles round you guys.

Very cool stuff.

re: #169 Cato the Elder

Found that already. It's almost two years old, and it lists a bunch of charities that one could donate to if one were so inclined. Nothing about budgets, income, outlays, or anything else on that page. Just a list of potential donees.

Tell you what - I'll wait to be impressed till you show me results, not a list of links.

At about $35 Billion the Gates foundation is charity without religious motivation.

fact sheet , financials and a list of Corporate Charities
and many others many of which do not appear to have a religious affiliation or name.

re: #180 Bagua

Thanks, but you're missing the point.

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I see, another argument from authority. This thread is aging but I'll reply anyway.

Your lack of respect was apparent from Ho hum.
The main one I'm aware of claiming some kind of infallibility is the pope. Endless conjecture about some entity existing outside of time and space that has to be taken on 'faith' is pointless and useless to anyone who doesn't share your particular brand. And it is not needed. I realize that many have a need to believe there is something beyond this existence and they will in some form survive death, but having a need doesn't make it a reality. We're here due to an incredible chain of events; I marvel at the opportunity to be here and aware of it all. Do you know why those events occurred? Because if they hadn't you wouldn't be here. That's it. That's all there is to it. Many are frightened at the thought that no one is in control, but no one is. The universe doesn't care one way or the other about our existence. "Care" is not an aspect of the universe, only of humans.

Religion is born out of a need to find meaning, to lend some "higher purpose" to life. There is none except what we make for ourselves. I'm sympathetic to those who do not want to live in such a world and proclaim to have faith in something "better". Proclamation does not make it Truth.

re: #182 ED 209

Your lack of respect showed far earlier, and was confirmed by your feigned surprise that there could be such a thing as a non-oxymoronic Catholic thinker. I made no argument from authority - merely pointing out that you would most probably lose an argument with Augustine. Maybe I'm wrong.

I suppose Teilhard de Chardin and Thomas Merton are fools in your eyes, too. It matters not to me.

"Do you know why those events occurred? Because if they hadn't you wouldn't be here."

Yes, you stole that from Stephen Hawking, and it was circular reasoning in his formulation, too. A content-free, meaningless statement. Even brilliant physicists can be fools.

As long as we're pulling philosophers out of our asses-

About 4% of Roman Catholic clergy in the U.S. have been accused of improper conduct with minors. How does that stand against society in general, or other groups of people? In a large organization of sinners one can expect to get such behavior. What cannot be is the transferring of known offenders to other parishes, or to leisurely retirement in Rome. The attempted coverup is/was anything but an "Imitation of Christ."

The Inquisition by far and away went after Catholic apostates, nor Muslims nor Jews. However if one became a Catholic and then decided to revert back to one's former religion, one was considered "rack-ready".

The man who wrote Hitler's Pope has in part recanted his views. He has not however become a fan of Pius XII. It seems this era is not as clear cut as either side would have you believe.

I think most of hated of the "AIDS is a punishment from God" type toward gays has not come from the Catholic church, but from a few evangelical protestant ones. It is very much a minority belief without traction in Christianity. Homosexuals are free to join a Catholic church if they see their homosexuality as a sin. If not they are not in communion with the Catholic church and thus by their beliefs ex communicate themselves from it.

Quoting Richard Dawkins as approving Chris Hitchens is akin to Goebbels proclaiming "Mein Kampf" as one of the greatest books of all time. Both Dawkins and Hitchens will stand before God and be judged.
Sad that they will not avail themselves of the opportunity to repent.