Fort Hood Shooter Connected to Radicals, Tried to Contact Al Qaeda

US News • Views: 4,473

As information comes out that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the accused Fort Hood shooter, was possibly trying to make contact with Al Qaeda, the real question becomes: how did the military miss all the warning signs Hasan was emitting? Fort Hood Shooter Tried to Contact al Qaeda Terrorists, Officials Say.

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan tried to make contact with people linked to al Qaeda.
It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

And there’s more:

Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.

In a blog posting early Monday titled “Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing,” Awlaki calls Hasan a “hero” and a “man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people.”

According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.

The Associated Press reported Sunday that Major Hasan attended the Falls Church mosque when Awlaki was there. The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.

The website of Anwar al Awlaki is offline, probably because of heavy traffic from all the blogs and MSM sites linking to it, but here’s the Google cache of his evil post: Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing : Anwar al Awlaki On-Line.

Nidal Hassan is a hero. He is a man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people. This is a contradiction that many Muslims brush aside and just pretend that it doesn’t exist. Any decent Muslim cannot live, understanding properly his duties towards his Creator and his fellow Muslims, and yet serve as a US soldier. The US is leading the war against terrorism which in reality is a war against Islam. Its army is directly invading two Muslim countries and indirectly occupying the rest through its stooges.

Nidal opened fire on soldiers who were on their way to be deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. How can there be any dispute about the virtue of what he has done? In fact the only way a Muslim could Islamically justify serving as a soldier in the US army is if his intention is to follow the footsteps of men like Nidal.

At least this violence-promoting religious leader is no longer spewing his filth in America.

Jump to bottom

601 comments
1 filetandrelease  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:38:54am

Surprise, surprise, surprise

2 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:39:40am

re: #1 filetandrelease

Surprise, surprise, surprise


Me too ...I feel silly!
///

3 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:39:43am

Don't be absurd- Major Hassan had PTSD cooties passed onto him at Walter Reed!

/MSNBC

4 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:40:31am

re: #3 Fenway_Nation

Yes...Second Hand Institutional Trauma!
...SHIT...

5 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:42:28am

I hope he stays in Yemen.

6 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:42:55am
The US is leading the war against terrorism which in reality is a war against Islam.

Is al Awlaki equating terrorism to Islam? CAIR is gonna be peeved!
/

7 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:42:57am

Well, PTSD will do that to a man.
//

8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:43:26am

I don't know where to draw the line between Islamaphobia and rational thought.

But, I'm thinking we got screwed by PC here.

9 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:43:37am

The MSM's systematic spin and denial of the role Hasan's religion (or at least his interpertation of it) played in the massacre would almost be amusing if

A) 12 GI's weren't murdered in cold blood by a comissioned officer in the United States Army, who by many accounts should not remained in the Army in the first place.

B) There's still people out there who take the MSM seriously.

10 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:44:03am

re: #6 CommonCents

Is al Awlaki equating terrorism to Islam? CAIR is gonna be peeved!
/

How soon before CAIR changes its tune from what it said right after the shooting?

11 abolitionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:01am

re: #3 Fenway_Nation

Don't be absurd- Major Hassan had PTSD cooties passed onto him at Walter Reed!

/MSNBC

/Time Magazine, etc etc

12 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:10am

General George Casey seems to be more concerned about 'diversity' than cleaning up the radical islamists in the military.

WTF??? Political correctness has become deadly.

13 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:24am
Its army is directly invading two Muslim countries and indirectly occupying the rest through its stooges.

That might be news to the mullahs in Iran.

It's increasingly difficult to refrain from considering hasan to have been motivated by his religion now that more evidence is coming to light.

He's now awake and talking, so we'll find out soon just how much that motivation was.

14 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:31am

re: #10 MandyManners

I don't think it'll matter to them, personally.

15 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:35am

re: #10 MandyManners

What did CAIR say immediately after the shootings and was it any worse than the TOTUS's patronizing 'Let's not jump to conclusions'?

16 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:45:50am

re: #10 MandyManners

How soon before CAIR changes its tune from what it said right after the shooting?

Similar to how the NY Times does their retractions, CAIR will have a retraction press release aired on Siberian local radio.

17 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:46:22am

re: #13 Sharmuta

I'll bet he's pissed he survived!
...Cause I am...sort of!

18 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:46:47am

re: #14 badger1970

I don't think it'll matter to them, personally.

Only if they can work up a good froth about how freakin' oppressed they are.

19 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:47:04am

re: #17 reloadingisnotahobby

All I can say is 'Make wish he hadn't...'

20 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:47:09am

Awlaki's not spewing filth in the US, but has a wealth of jihadis who are listening to his filth overseas in Yemen - the ancestral homeland of none other than Osama bin Laden.

And his website gives him a long reach both to urge others to jihad and to celebrate Hasan's mass murder as a continuing jihad against the West.

As to why the signals were missed, perhaps it comes down to those who are so blind as they do not wish to see. Whether it was a refusal (willful or negligent) to confront Hasan about statements made, the inability to share information with necessary parties to act, or a combination of failures, the ball was dropped.

The military should have a zero-tolerance attitude towards extremists of all stripes - from gangbangers and right wing wackaloons to jihadis. Was there such a concern that confronting Hasan would result in ugliness - lawsuits etc., that it led those in a position of authority to drag their feet to act? An investigation will have to look at those questions.

Moreover, why exactly was Hasan still in the Army having just received a promotion if these were issues?

Some will latch on to the reports that Hasan was the target of anti-Muslim sentiment as being a cause or factor in the attacks, but one has to wonder whether which came first - the anti-Muslim statements, or the Hasan statements denoucning the war and those suggesting Muslims rise/support efforts against the US efforts.

21 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:47:16am

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

What did CAIR say immediately after the shootings and was it any worse than the TOTUS's patronizing 'Let's not jump to conclusions'?

The statement sounded as if they were appalled and angry.

22 Tardis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:47:25am

"PTSD" or "PTSD".

In the first the P has a different shading, and does not ride as high on the line that is pre traumatic. The second is much darker and the P is marginally taller, post traumatic.

23 Chip Designer  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:47:47am

re: #17 reloadingisnotahobby

Not only does he not get his 72 virgins and 20 boys, he will find out that he was shot by a woman.

24 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #16 CommonCents

Similar to how the NY Times does their retractions, CAIR will have a retraction press release aired on Siberian local radio.

I don't think so. I've not known CAIR to pull its punches if it can make waves about their perception that someone is being mean to a Muslim somewhere in America.

25 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #21 MandyManners

The "high fives" were behind the curtian...

26 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:48:49am

I try very hard to not be any more anti-Islam than I am anti any religion practiced in the extreme. However when a high ranking mullah here in the US says that the ONLY way a Muslim can serve in the US Army is if they are planning to attack US soldiers then I find myself having a hard time not profiling any Muslim serving in our armed forces.

27 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:48:55am

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't know where to draw the line between Islamaphobia and rational thought.

But, I'm thinking we got screwed by PC here.

///Well PTSD will do that to a person.

28 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:49:07am

re: #23 Chip Designer

Great!! Additional trauma for POS!!

29 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:49:45am

Only now are people recollecting what a whack job this guy was. But nobody breathed a word until he murdered a bunch of people. Too intimidated of being called "Islamophobe"?

30 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:49:53am

re: #20 lawhawk

IIRC, he complained of harassment only after the investigation started.

31 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:51:11am

NADIL MALIK HASAN- YOU WERE DROPPED BY A GIRL! NO RAISINS FOR YOU, BITCH!

32 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:51:13am

re: #4 reloadingisnotahobby

Yes...Second Hand Institutional Trauma!
...SHIT...

He's a VICTIM I tell ya!!
A Victim of S.H.I.T!!

33 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:52:30am

re: #20 lawhawk

Some will latch on to the reports that Hasan was the target of anti-Muslim sentiment as being a cause or factor in the attacks, but one has to wonder whether which came first - the anti-Muslim statements, or the Hasan statements denoucning the war and those suggesting Muslims rise/support efforts against the US efforts.

I now have to wonder if hasan's statements weren't a form of baiting- that he made these comments in the hopes it would generate harassment towards him so he could complain.

34 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:53:50am

The question is if him being psychotic brought about religious delusions (which I think is the case with a lot of terrorists, frankly) or if it was the other way around. This just doesn't seem organized enough to be the work of a rational mind.

35 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:53:58am

Political Correctness is killing our society ... and sadly, it also contributed to the killing of our troops at Fort Hood.

36 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:54:04am

re: #33 Sharmuta

Hadn't he asked to be discharged?

37 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:54:22am

re: #20 lawhawk

Or it was a strategy to wait and see who else he contacted to plan even bigger things. Nobody thought he'd go "sudden jihand syndrome", but if he was able to provide new contacts and information for larger plots, the US intel did the right thing.

My understanding is the US sees 13,000 deaths as preventable, so unpalatable as it seems, 13 is impossible to prevent. There's just not enough resources in the world.

That's why they call it asymmetrical warfare.

38 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:54:24am
Nidal opened fire on soldiers who were on their way to be deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. How can there be any dispute about the virtue of what he has done? In fact the only way a Muslim could Islamically justify serving as a soldier in the US army is if his intention is to follow the footsteps of men like Nidal.

No, no... it was STSD... he was feeling sympathy with all the "victims" that he was counseling.
//

39 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:54:49am

re: #26 Big Steve

I try very hard to not be any more anti-Islam than I am anti any religion practiced in the extreme. However when a high ranking mullah here in the US says that the ONLY way a Muslim can serve in the US Army is if they are planning to attack US soldiers then I find myself having a hard time not profiling any Muslim serving in our armed forces.

He's not in the US.

40 yesandno  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:55:09am

If it walks like a duck...


PC will kill us all.

41 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:55:37am

how did the army miss him and his signals? they didn't really, they knew he was a problem but no one really wanted to handle him. In fact he was recently promoted, maybe the Army thinking a promotion would pacify him??,...any veteran here can attest to the fact the military likes to shovel their problems around..from one lap to another. we did it in the Navy, got a shitbird with an attitude problem..send him TAD to the mess decks let the MAA's worry about him. He can do less damage down in the kitchen than he can on the flightdeck. And I know the Army, Marines and Air Force do the same with their problem children. I think him getting bounced around before Ft Hood was such a scenario. Of course this is just my speculation.

42 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:55:48am

re: #36 reloadingisnotahobby

Hadn't he asked to be discharged?

Asking to be discharged is not so easy when one has had the military pay for your entire medical school education. To get this deal one has to sign up for many years of active service, with the years of service depending on the medical specialty one acquires.

43 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:56:24am

re: #33 Sharmuta

I now have to wonder if hasan's statements weren't a form of baiting- that he made these comments in the hopes it would generate harassment towards him so he could complain.

What purpose would the complaints serve? Getting out of his contract?

44 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:56:33am

re: #33 Sharmuta

I now have to wonder if hasan's statements weren't a form of baiting- that he made these comments in the hopes it would generate harassment towards him so he could complain.

I figure they could have been a way of self-isolating so he didn't have to interact with anyone who would interfere with his psychotic delusions.

45 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:56:46am

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

What did CAIR say immediately after the shootings and was it any worse than the TOTUS's patronizing 'Let's not jump to conclusions'?

CAIR actually said the right things. The POTUS? Not so much ...

46 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:57:09am

re: #39 Charles

He's not in the US.

True now but he was in the US

47 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:57:19am

re: #43 MandyManners

What purpose would the complaints serve? Getting out of his contract?

That and possibly justifying his victimhood mentality.

48 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:57:38am

re: #42 Big Steve

Asking to be discharged is not so easy when one has had the military pay for your entire medical school education. To get this deal one has to sign up for many years of active service, with the years of service depending on the medical specialty one acquires.

IIRC, he went so far as to ask the military if he could pay it back in cash.

49 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:57:39am
In fact the only way a Muslim could Islamically justify serving as a soldier in the US army is if his intention is to follow the footsteps of men like Nidal.

[deleted]

50 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:58:02am

Why didn't anyone report this guy?

...Danquah said he was so disturbed by Hasan's persistent questioning that he recommended the mosque reject Hasan's request to become a lay Muslim leader at Fort Hood. But he never saw a need to tell anyone at the sprawling Army post about the talks, because Hasan never expressed anger toward the Army or indicated any plans for violence.

"If I had an inkling that he had this type of inclination or intentions, definitely I would have brought it to their attention," he said.

Finnell said he did just that during a year of study in which Hasan made a presentation "that justified suicide bombing" and spewed "anti-American propaganda" as he argued the war on terror was "a war against Islam." Finnell said he and at least one other student complained about Hasan, surprised that someone with "this type of vile ideology" would be allowed to wear an officer's uniform.

But Finnell said no one filed a formal, written complaint about Hasan's comments out of fear of appearing discriminatory.

"In retrospect, I'm not surprised he did it," Finnell said. "I had real questions about what his priorities were, what his beliefs were."

I'll say it again. Political correctness has become deadly.

51 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:59:13am

Do those who watch the press in the middle east have any idea how news of this was recieved in places like Cairo, Gaza or Beirut?

I imagine the savvier people over there would be some sort of tepid statement half-heartedly condemning this in English...

But ever sine September 11, 2001 I've learned to pay no attention to what they say to us in English- pay closer attention to what's being said to each other in Arabic.

52 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:59:44am

If this Imam travels anywhere internationally ...
Well I'll self censor at this point!

53 Pickles  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:59:46am

I agree Charles. I'm glad this guy is no longer on our soil. At the same time, it just ticks me off that apparently our entire military establishment was asleep at the wheel. We have 13 dead and countless injured because those in charge blew through the stop sign. I want to know why and head should roll (well jobs should, anyway).

54 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:59:50am

re: #48 MandyManners

IIRC, he went so far as to ask the military if he could pay it back in cash.

That was happening a lot in the 70's and 80's...people would get the military medical education and then get some lucrative field where they could pay it back quickly and then try to go civilian. However the military wised up to that and has closed those loopholes.

55 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:00:30am

re: #41 Spider Mensch

The current military is suffering from a cancer called "lack of accountability". It has infested the entire organization and shows no signs of going away anytime soon. Part of this is due to the general camraderie of the armed forces i.e. no one wants to "screw someone's career". The other part is a large infusion of PC thinking that more often then not paints the perpetrator as a victim while the whistle blower gets screwed. Unless the mentality changes and all people are treated equally in the armed forces, incidents like this will continue to happen and with more frequency.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:00:36am

re: #44 Conservative Moonbat

I figure they could have been a way of self-isolating so he didn't have to interact with anyone who would interfere with his psychotic delusions.

I've met people who did similar things, on a smaller scale.

57 John Neverbend  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:00:37am

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't know where to draw the line between Islamaphobia and rational thought.

But, I'm thinking we got screwed by PC here.

That's one possibility. A couple of other possibilities have been put forward later on in this thread, but can we completely discount total incompetence?

58 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:00:55am

re: #44 Conservative Moonbat

I figure they could have been a way of self-isolating so he didn't have to interact with anyone who would interfere with his psychotic delusions.

There's the victimhood mentality to consider as well. A lot of radical imams like to promote the notion that all muslims are victims of the infidel keeping them down. They use infidels to deflect attention from the real ills of the governments in various islamic countries that are truly keeping their people in poverty and/or oppression. It's not their fellow muslims that are the problems- it's the Jews and America. Awlaki seems to fit this bill.

59 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:01:41am

re: #50 NJDhockeyfan

Students should not be required to file formal written complaints against their fellow classmates...that's ridiculous. The blame (if there is to be blame placed) lies with the instructors, who apparently were well informed, yet did nothing (other than promote the bozo).

60 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:01:42am

re: #54 Big Steve

That was happening a lot in the 70's and 80's...people would get the military medical education and then get some lucrative field where they could pay it back quickly and then try to go civilian. However the military wised up to that and has closed those loopholes.

They should unclose that loophole and charge loan shark rates. :-)

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:01:42am

re: #50 NJDhockeyfan

Why didn't anyone report this guy?


I'll say it again. Political correctness has become deadly.

Why didn't the U.S. intelligence agencies report/apprehend this guy? Politically incorrect?

62 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:02:01am

re: #45 _RememberTonyC


My thoughts exactly!

63 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:02:23am

The report has unamed sources, so I'm not 100 percent in yet, but all indicators to me on this are planned act of lone wolf terror. The reach out to AQ is very troubling, especially the Yemen connection. IIRC some of the coordination of 9/11 occurred in a specific safe house there.

The recriminations are soon to come, and with two sources this is likely true even though they are not ID'ed. Where was the breakdown this time?

64 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:02:34am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Why didn't the U.S. intelligence agencies report/apprehend this guy? Politically incorrect?

I posted upstream, but it's the "bigger fish" theory.

65 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:03:33am

What I really want to know is why the intelligence agencies in question didn't share their knowledge with the army. Wasn't the lack of information sharing like this shown to be how the 9/11 attacks were able to happen? Isn't why the Department of Homeland Security was founded in the first place, to facilitate information sharing?

66 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:03:43am

re: #62 Fenway_Nation

My thoughts exactly!

Well said ... (nice blog title, too)

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:03:53am

re: #64 gregb

I posted upstream, but it's the "bigger fish" theory.

Damn. I wonder if they realized he was in contact with problem people but didn't realize he was unstable--thereby assuming they had time to work on him.

68 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:04:03am

Folks, he was under investigation.

69 rwmofo  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:04:35am

Even if the CIA had information on this guy, Pelosi is already on record of accusing them of "lying to congress all the time." Of course we don't want to get into "domestic spying" of suspected terrorists either do we?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

70 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:04am

re: #59 J.S.

Students should not be required to file formal written complaints against their fellow classmates...that's ridiculous. The blame (if there is to be blame placed) lies with the instructors, who apparently were well informed, yet did nothing (other than promote the bozo).

They aren't required but they can if they want to. They didn't because of a PC atmosphere of being labeled a racist or violating some sort of diversity rule.

71 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:20am

Does someone in the military have the same "free speech" rights as a civilian? I ask this because I truly don't know. In my day we bitched endlessly about the Army, officers, the food, the enemy, etc...and no one was ever investigated or reprimanded that I was aware of. I remember officers ordering us to shut the hell up but that was only interpreted as not showing direct insubordination. However it was a different time and different war...

72 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:37am

My train of thought was nearing a subject matter
that can get me in touble...
Trouble we got...

73 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:44am

I hope hasan recovers well enough for a very public trial where all of the dirty laundry comes out about him and his connections. There should be no plea bargain offered to him in order to keep the details private. And if he is convicted, he should be executed.

74 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:49am

re: #71 Big Steve

Does someone in the military have the same "free speech" rights as a civilian? I ask this because I truly don't know. In my day we bitched endlessly about the Army, officers, the food, the enemy, etc...and no one was ever investigated or reprimanded that I was aware of. I remember officers ordering us to shut the hell up but that was only interpreted as not showing direct insubordination. However it was a different time and different war...

We don't.

75 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:05:59am

Anwar al Awlaki On-Line is being hosted by Dreamhost.

I just pinged the site and the IP information is:

IP address: 67.205.21.146
Reverse DNS: apache2-ogle.duffman.dreamhost.com.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 26347
ASN Name: DREAMHOST-AS
IP range connectivity: 1
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 67.205.0.0 to 67.205.63.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Brea, California
Country (per outside source): US [United States]

Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 67.205.21.146

76 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:11am

re: #65 Conservative Moonbat

What I really want to know is why the intelligence agencies in question didn't share their knowledge with the army. Wasn't the lack of information sharing like this shown to be how the 9/11 attacks were able to happen? Isn't why the Department of Homeland Security was founded in the first place, to facilitate information sharing?

Not sure HS was meant to include the military. The Pentagon isn't one to share information with other agencies easily. This attack might alter that.

77 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:14am

Information may have been given to the CIA as per Lieberman. This may yet become a "what did they know, when did they know it" situation.

78 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:19am

re: #68 MandyManners

Folks, he was under investigation.

Was he promoted to Major before the al Qaeda investigation or after?

79 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:24am

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

The current military is suffering from a cancer called "lack of accountability". It has infested the entire organization and shows no signs of going away anytime soon. Part of this is due to the general camraderie of the armed forces i.e. no one wants to "screw someone's career". The other part is a large infusion of PC thinking that more often then not paints the perpetrator as a victim while the whistle blower gets screwed. Unless the mentality changes and all people are treated equally in the armed forces, incidents like this will continue to happen and with more frequency.

yup! I've been out almost 20 years now..I saw what you speak of then, I can only imagine it worse today.

80 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:47am

re: #65 Conservative Moonbat

What I really want to know is why the intelligence agencies in question didn't share their knowledge with the army. Wasn't the lack of information sharing like this shown to be how the 9/11 attacks were able to happen? Isn't why the Department of Homeland Security was founded in the first place, to facilitate information sharing?

Al Qaeda's stated goal is to kill a million US citizens. US intel isn't going to move against a disgruntled US soldier who might do something when he can provide future intel to the prevention of a much, much larger goal.

They probably thought he'd be a very valuable "honeypot" as soon as he was deployed to Iraq.

81 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:06:51am

re: #65 Conservative Moonbat

What I really want to know is why the intelligence agencies in question didn't share their knowledge with the army. Wasn't the lack of information sharing like this shown to be how the 9/11 attacks were able to happen? Isn't why the Department of Homeland Security was founded in the first place, to facilitate information sharing?

Who was investigating him? The FBI? I had a link the other day but I've lost it.

82 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:07:09am

re: #73 _RememberTonyC

If I was the sentencing judge:

'You'll die on our terms, not yours.'

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:07:37am

re: #68 MandyManners

Folks, he was under investigation.

But it's so much easier to say that PC attitudes insulated him than to accept that a bunch of people just didn't make the right judgement call fast enough.

No sarc.

84 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:07:44am

re: #75 Gus 802

I hope that company is reconsidering their business practices.

85 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:07:49am

re: #75 Gus 802

I wish it would be shut down.

86 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:08:24am

re: #78 NJDhockeyfan

Was he promoted to Major before the al Qaeda investigation or after?

I have no idea.

87 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:08:36am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

88 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:08:52am

re: #82 Fenway_Nation

If I was the sentencing judge:

'You'll die on our terms, not yours.'

agree 100% ...

89 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:09:02am

re: #84 Sharmuta

I hope that company is reconsidering their business practices.

re: #85 MandyManners

I wish it would be shut down.

I agree but after seeing what happened after 911 I'm not counting on them to do the right thing.

Here's their contact information.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:09:06am

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

They aren't required but they can if they want to. They didn't because of a PC atmosphere of being labeled a racist or violating some sort of diversity rule.

Reason for thinking so? It's possible, but I am also open to the idea that it might have something to do with not being a 'snitch', or rocking the boat.

91 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:09:16am

re: #77 jayzee

Let me guess...

'BUSH KNEW!'


/tepid, half-hearted sarc

92 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:09:20am

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

But it's so much easier to say that PC attitudes insulated him than to accept that a bunch of people just didn't make the right judgement call fast enough.

No sarc.

Honestly, who would've thought he'd do what he did.

93 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:09:52am

re: #75 Gus 802

Anwar al Awlaki On-Line is being hosted by Dreamhost.

I just pinged the site and the IP information is:

IP address: 67.205.21.146
Reverse DNS: apache2-ogle.duffman.dreamhost.com.
Reverse DNS authenticity: [Verified]
ASN: 26347
ASN Name: DREAMHOST-AS
IP range connectivity: 1
Registrar (per ASN): ARIN
Country (per IP registrar): US [United States]
Country Currency: USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range: 67.205.0.0 to 67.205.63.255
Country fraud profile: Normal
City (per outside source): Brea, California
Country (per outside source): US [United States]

Private (internal) IP? No
IP address registrar: whois.arin.net
Known Proxy? No
Link for WHOIS: 67.205.21.146

Ooo, that's just a stone's throw from here. I should go visit and blog about it. I feel a world exclusive news story coming on...

94 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:05am

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.


Can we go back to calling it what it is,, TERROR ATTACKS, instead of the cutesy miqtoast "man caused disasters"

That makes it sound as if someone is walking around with a Hollywood set wind machine blowing off roofs

95 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:10am

Imagine that.

And this guy whose own colleagues called him a "blankbag" according to NPR (douchebag? scumbag? colostomy bag? - thanks to America's absurd squeamishness about English As She Is Spoke, we'll never know), who was described as "disinterested" in his work, who seems to have been so far below fourth-rate that he never would have made it in private practice, was kept on by a military that apparently can't attract and retain decent enough medical personnel to fill the available positions.

Don't tell me no one had an inkling of what was going on with this character. This thing stinks to high heaven and I'm betting heads will roll.

We always bleat on about how our men and women in uniform deserve the very best. What do they get? This offal.

96 KenJen  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:18am

re: #87 J.S.

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

Don't call us we'll call you.

97 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:21am

re: #87 J.S.

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

I haven't seen confirmation of that. There's been nothing to say they did contact him, but nothing to say they hadn't.

98 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:27am

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

Red flags should have been going up during his time at graduate school.

99 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:28am

re: #93 gregb

Ooo, that's just a stone's throw from here. I should go visit and blog about it. I feel a world exclusive news story coming on...

Go for it.

100 Big Steve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:39am

re: #93 gregb

Ooo, that's just a stone's throw from here. I should go visit and blog about it. I feel a world exclusive news story coming on...

Take a camera and do a Zombie-like exclusive

101 John Neverbend  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:49am

re: #71 Big Steve

Does someone in the military have the same "free speech" rights as a civilian? I ask this because I truly don't know. In my day we bitched endlessly about the Army, officers, the food, the enemy, etc...and no one was ever investigated or reprimanded that I was aware of. I remember officers ordering us to shut the hell up but that was only interpreted as not showing direct insubordination. However it was a different time and different war...

Some years ago I worked as a civilian with the British armed services, and I saw a similar amount of non-stop griping, but it was generally tolerated. The officer/non-officer division was one of the more obvious items. What would not have been tolerated would have been anything that would have been deemed to compromise security, which did not apparently include any of the above.

102 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:10:53am

I've got to go to work...
All I can say is ,I hope EVERY American takes this as personal as I do!!
And I've never been in the Armed Forces!
Hope someone comes up with some "CHANGES"
I can believe in!!

103 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:11:18am

re: #97 jayzee

It's what the FBI claims.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:16am

re: #87 J.S.

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

So, basically, this means nothing in terms of outside involvement. He tried to write away for a Super Jihadi J-Man Badge, and didn't hear back. This brings us back to 'isolated crazy lone wolf'.

105 John Neverbend  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:18am

re: #98 J.S.

Red flags should have been going up during his time at graduate school.

It seems that they did go up, but only as far up as a few people's heads were up their own backsides.

106 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #91 Fenway_Nation

Let me guess...

'BUSH KNEW!'

/tepid, half-hearted sarc

Nah-the investigations started under this presidency supposedly. And it was Panetta that was told not to destroy any docs. They'll blame Bush though by saying it was "his" wars that broke this American's spirit and caused him to commit murder (like has already begun).

107 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #100 Big Steve

Take a camera and do a Zombie-like exclusive

I hope gregb brings a sock puppet with then.

108 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:41am

re: #66 _RememberTonyC

Well said ... (nice blog title, too)


Thank you...unless it's relevant to the topic at hand, I try and save the heavy-duty blog pimping past the 100 post mark.

109 abolitionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:53am

Anyone know whether the Fort Hood jihadist was named after the notorious terrorist Abu Nidal (who met his end in Baghdad, btw)?

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)

Abu Niadal - father of struggle

110 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:12:56am

re: #99 Gus 802

Maybe Charles will give me some LGF press credentials. ;-) Otherwise, I'm just sum dum engineer.

111 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:13:22am

re: #92 MandyManners

A fellow student at graduate school called him a "ticking time bomb."

112 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:13:43am

re: #110 gregb

Maybe Charles will give me some LGF press credentials. ;-) Otherwise, I'm just sum dum engineer.

Just bring your Lizard Badge ™

113 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:13:46am

Footnote: The 1964 PLO Charter says they neither claim the West Bank nor Gaza.

Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.

114 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:14:02am

re: #103 J.S.

Like it wasn't a terrorist matrix? They couch their phrasing. No terrorist matrix, that we can see at this time. No returned contact by AQ that we've been able to determine. Maybe yes, maybe no, but it aint certain yet.

115 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:14:53am

re: #109 abolitionist

Nadal is a variation of Nidal, spelling changes with country of origin, but it's not an uncommon Islamic name in either variation.

116 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:14:55am

re: #87 J.S.

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

re: #96 KenJen

Don't call us we'll call you.

More like "You know what must be done."

117 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:15:01am

re: #107 Sharmuta

I hope gregb brings a sock puppet with then.

I'm lol. I never heard of a sock puppet until I joined LGF. That Blend Films artwork has become my favorite picture.

Image: sock_puppet.jpg

118 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:15:11am

re: #87 J.S.

From what I've heard/read, Hasan attempted to contact al-Qaeda types, but, apparently, al-Qaeda types never got in touch with him...(hence it was a one-way communication, not two-way).

This has me wondering if the AQ types might have figured out he was a nutjob and not somebody they could count on to be part of a larger scheme.

119 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:15:51am

re: #109 abolitionist

I'm not sure, but I think Hasan predates the Abdul Nidal organiztion

120 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:15:54am

Here's the detail on the Yemeni safe house that I was trying to recall earlier
[Link: www.pbs.org...]

121 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:16:16am

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

So, basically, this means nothing in terms of outside involvement. He tried to write away for a Super Jihadi J-Man Badge, and didn't hear back. This brings us back to 'isolated crazy lone wolf'.

I think we need more time to determine that. Also, the "lone wolf" is something that AQ has been urging for a good long while. Harder to get to a person if they are not connected to anyone.

122 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:16:23am

American Medical Association bribed?

The American Medical Association (AMA) was facing a 21 percent cut in physicians’ reimbursements under the current law. Obama promised to kill the cut if they backed his bill.

123 StillAMarine  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:16:58am

Right now, I feel that it is becoming more and more difficult for me not to mistrust Muslims in general, even though almost all Muslims living in North America are patriotic citizens of whichever country they live in. The only thing that will really give me satisfaction is seeing thousands of Muslims in the streets strongly and loudly demonstrating against the maniacal few of their number who promote the anti-Islamic ideology of death to innocents.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:17:01am

re: #116 SteveC

More like "You know what must be done."

He rides across the nation
The thoroughbred of sin
He got the application
You just sent in

It needs evaluation
So let the games begin
A heinous crime, a show of force
A murder would be nice of course

The Evil League of Evil
Is watching so beware
The grade that you receive
Will be your last we swear

OK, I'm sick and twisted. So is Joss Whedon.

125 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:17:03am

re: #118 Conservative Moonbat

possibility (one can only imagine how many fruitcakes/nutjobs wanna sign up to al-Qaeda...). We'll have to wait and see (probably find out more as the investigation continues..)

126 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:17:26am

re: #94 sattv4u2

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.

Can we go back to calling it what it is,, TERROR ATTACKS, instead of the cutesy miqtoast "man caused disasters"

That makes it sound as if someone is walking around with a Hollywood set wind machine blowing off roofs

Glad you mentioned her. Here is some leadership Janet Napolitano style.

Napolitano Warns Against Anti-Muslim Backlash

ABU DHABI, United Arab Emirates -- U.S. Homeland Security officials are working with groups around United States to head off any possible anti-Muslim backlash following the shootings at Fort Hood in Texas, the agency's chief said Sunday.

The comments by Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano also appeared part of efforts to reassure the Arab world that U.S. authorities were taking measures to quell anti-Islam sentiments after last week's rampage by an American-born Muslim serving as U.S. Army psychiatrist.

"This was a terrible tragedy for all involved," Napolitano told reporters in the United Arab Emirates' capital Abu Dhabi. "Obviously, we object to -- and do not believe -- that anti-Muslim sentiment should emanate from this."

Napolitano said her agency is working with state and local groups to try to deflect any anti-Muslim anger after the Thursday attacks by Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, a Muslim who reportedly expressed growing dismay over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The shootings left 13 people dead and 29 wounded.

"This was an individual who does not, obviously, represent the Muslim faith," she said after meeting with a group of women university students.

She's ringing the alarm bells for non-existent anti-muslim attacks. What about the muslim-on-infidel attack that left 13 dead and 38 wounded?

127 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:17:28am

re: #94 sattv4u2

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.

Can we go back to calling it what it is,, TERROR ATTACKS, instead of the cutesy miqtoast "man caused disasters"

That makes it sound as if someone is walking around with a Hollywood set wind machine blowing off roofs

Yeah, but the longer they call it "terrorism", the more they'll have to explain why it keeps happening.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:18:28am

re: #121 jayzee

I think we need more time to determine that. Also, the "lone wolf" is something that AQ has been urging for a good long while. Harder to get to a person if they are not connected to anyone.

Oh, quite. They count this as a win regardless of whether anyone from their org ever contacted this guy.

129 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:19:06am

re: #3 Fenway_Nation

Don't be absurd- Major Hassan had PTSD cooties passed onto him at Walter Reed!

/MSNBC

Exactly. Apparently pre-PTSD is communicable. We could all have it! Worse, pre-PTSD kicks in extremely early, like back in August when he bought one of his murder weapons and multiple magazines.

[Link: blog.newsweek.com...]

"Why do you go out and buy a pistol with several magazines?" said the law enforcement official. "Of course, he planned this." The official added, "Nobody wants to say that," referring to the authorities' reluctance to refer to the shooting as a pre-meditated attack.

Really, this was just a cry for help. His pre-PTSD just caused it to come out as "Allahu Akbar".

130 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:19:33am

Can a Catholic fight against another Catholic?
Can a Baptist fight against another Baptist?
Can a Lutheran fight against another Lutheran?
Can a Jew fight against another Jew?

Study the American Civil War for the answers.

131 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:19:55am

re: #125 J.S.

Aside from making sure nobody from various security or intelligence agencies enlist, I gotta wonder how choosey AQ is about their membership ranks.

132 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:05am

re: #123 StillAMarine

Right now, I feel that it is becoming more and more difficult for me not to mistrust Muslims in general, even though almost all Muslims living in North America are patriotic citizens of whichever country they live in. The only thing that will really give me satisfaction is seeing thousands of Muslims in the streets strongly and loudly demonstrating against the maniacal few of their number who promote the anti-Islamic ideology of death to innocents.

I think that is part of the plan. Sadly. There's almost no way to win humanely. If we respond, it can radicalize some Muslims who are moderate, if we don't the attacks get worse, and it radicalizes Muslims that want to be on the winning team. It's really almost a catch 22.

133 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:11am

I can't recall/locate the news report, but there was one instance where an imam at one of the mosques Hasan attended that thought that Hasan was acting strangely as though he was trolling for the feds as an informant. That imam was right to have his suspicions, but for the wrong reasons - he really was heading towards the path of jihad.

Meanwhile, WaPo thinks that the attacks against the US on US soil by various groups are simply anti-war in nature, and not part of a jihad; the headline reads:

Fort Hood attack is 3rd this year by antiwar radicals targeting military on U.S. soil

They're not anti-war, they're the other side, no matter how much the WaPo reporter tries to spin that this is not all that different than McVeigh and Nichols pursuing their vendetta against the US government.

134 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:16am

re: #123 StillAMarine

Right now, I feel that it is becoming more and more difficult for me not to mistrust Muslims in general, even though almost all Muslims living in North America are patriotic citizens of whichever country they live in. The only thing that will really give me satisfaction is seeing thousands of Muslims in the streets strongly and loudly demonstrating against the maniacal few of their number who promote the anti-Islamic ideology of death to innocents.


nice idea...only problem...one of those thousand in the street would be wearing a suicide vest...and all the others know it...the maniacal few don't mind killing their own.

135 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:27am

re: #123 StillAMarine

Actually, I think more anger needs to be directed (not against peaceful, patriotic Muslims) but against those "higher-ups" who've enabled a radical Islamist type to not only gain entry to the US military but be promoted (wined and dined, so to speak.)

136 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:31am

re: #86 MandyManners

I have no idea.

Me, either. But someone posted last week that you're automatically given Captains rank when you sign up for a medical position, and the promotion to Majors rank is automatic upon completion of your studies. Not sure if this is correct, but that's what was posted.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:33am

re: #131 Fenway_Nation

Aside from making sure nobody from various security or intelligence agencies enlist, I gotta wonder how choosey AQ is about their membership ranks.

It's not exactly like being a made man. Except, maybe, at very high levels.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:44am

re: #57 John Neverbend

I don't think so, Slab. People have clearly mentioned that they were concerned for him, but didn't want to bring it up because they didn't want to get punched with the race card fist.

Which, is what I was talking about to begin with.

139 abolitionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:20:47am

re: #115 Thanos

Thanks. Not surprised it's a popular name, but I think it's a worthwhile question.

140 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:21:54am

re: #109 abolitionist

Nidal is a common name (meaning struggle). It is possible that his parents named him after Abu Nidal's terror group, but that would be speculation.

141 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:22:18am

re: #106 jayzee

Nah-the investigations started under this presidency supposedly. And it was Panetta that was told not to destroy any docs. They'll blame Bush though by saying it was "his" wars that broke this American's spirit and caused him to commit murder (like has already begun).

I thought the investigation started six months ago.

142 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:22:55am

How many would they have saved?

Pfc. Michael Pearson was a skilled guitarist who had trained to deactivate IED’s on his upcoming deployment.

143 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:00am

re: #133 lawhawk

I can't recall/locate the news report, but there was one instance where an imam at one of the mosques Hasan attended that thought that Hasan was acting strangely as though he was trolling for the feds as an informant. That imam was right to have his suspicions, but for the wrong reasons - he really was heading towards the path of jihad.

Meanwhile, WaPo thinks that the attacks against the US on US soil by various groups are simply anti-war in nature, and not part of a jihad; the headline reads:

They're not anti-war, they're the other side, no matter how much the WaPo reporter tries to spin that this is not all that different than McVeigh and Nichols pursuing their vendetta against the US government.

Here we go again. Like clockwork these media drones bring out their tired rhetoric. Anti-war radical?

144 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #130 Alouette

Isn't it fascinating that this imam would say muslims can't fight other muslims, yet this doesn't stop islamists from killing muslims in mosques, markets, and homes throughout the muslim world.

I suppose those are Zionist plots though. ///

145 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:08am

re: #130 Alouette

Can a Catholic fight against another Catholic?
Can a Baptist fight against another Baptist?
Can a Lutheran fight against another Lutheran?
Can a Jew fight against another Jew?

Study the American Civil War for the answers.

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

146 StillAMarine  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:24am

re: #134 Spider Mensch

nice idea...only problem...one of those thousand in the street would be wearing a suicide vest...and all the others know it...the maniacal few don't mind killing their own.

Likely all too true. But would such a fear on the part of the average Muslim not be a reflection on the ROP all by itself?

147 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:44am

re: #129 Diamond Bullet

Has anyone heard from the gun control people on this? I can't really see any solutions that they'd try and spin in their favor...this incident is supposed to be proof of what exactly...?

Officers in the US Army can't purchase firearms?
People residing in Texas can't buy guns?
Mulsims can't buy guns?

148 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:23:48am

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not exactly like being a made man. Except, maybe, at very high levels.

Problems with women, check-Blind religious obedience, chere: #141 MandyManners

I thought the investigation started six months ago.

Which would be April'ish.

149 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:24:09am

re: #136 SixDegrees

Medical doctors are granted the rank of captain or full lieutenant (navy) automatically. After completing residency (i.e. more than four years in service), promotion to major is pretty standard. You would not want the chief of a medical department being outranked by his/her subordinate physicians.

Many MDs in the military leave as colonels.

150 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:24:43am

re: #133 lawhawk

I can't recall/locate the news report, but there was one instance where an imam at one of the mosques Hasan attended that thought that Hasan was acting strangely as though he was trolling for the feds as an informant. That imam was right to have his suspicions, but for the wrong reasons - he really was heading towards the path of jihad.

Meanwhile, WaPo thinks that the attacks against the US on US soil by various groups are simply anti-war in nature, and not part of a jihad; the headline reads:


They're not anti-war, they're the other side, no matter how much the WaPo reporter tries to spin that this is not all that different than McVeigh and Nichols pursuing their vendetta against the US government.

I linked to that article yesterday.

151 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:24:48am

re: #133 lawhawk

The Wapo story makes me want to puke.

152 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:25:01am

re: #144 Sharmuta

Isn't it fascinating that this imam would say muslims can't fight other muslims, yet this doesn't stop islamists from killing muslims in mosques, markets, and homes throughout the muslim world.

I suppose those are Zionist plots though. ///

A Muslim staff Sargent told him the same thing.

153 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:25:25am

re: #133 lawhawk

[...] Meanwhile, WaPo thinks that the attacks against the US on US soil by various groups are simply anti-war in nature, and not part of a jihad; the headline reads:

They're not anti-war, they're the other side, no matter how much the WaPo reporter tries to spin that this is not all that different than McVeigh and Nichols pursuing their vendetta against the US government.

Sorry, but some of the people arrested prowling around military bases in recent months (I seem to recall stories about a woman apprehended somewhere in New England, but I'm too hazy on the details to want to go google it) were anything but jihadists, unless jihad now covers those who take the Luap Nor/militia movement/libertarian ideology seriously enough to start scouting Army posts for weaknesses.

Hasan was a jihadist. The wingnuts skulking around out there are indeed the heirs of McVeigh & Co. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

154 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:25:36am

re: #145 Thanos

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

I thought that was only relevant to the selective service and not to volentary enlistment?

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:25:56am

re: #152 jayzee

A Muslim staff Sargent told him the same thing.

About terror attacks on Muslims, or that it was a Zionist plot?

//

156 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:04am

re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote

Medical doctors are granted the rank of captain or full lieutenant (navy) automatically. After completing residency (i.e. more than four years in service), promotion to major is pretty standard. You would not want the chief of a medical department being outranked by his/her subordinate physicians.

Many MDs in the military leave as colonels.

My aunt (Combat Nurse, Vietnam) retired as a Lt. Col.

*Waves at Aunt Allie*

157 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:24am

re: #147 Fenway_Nation

Has anyone heard from the gun control people on this? I can't really see any solutions that they'd try and spin in their favor...this incident is supposed to be proof of what exactly...?

Officers in the US Army can't purchase firearms?
People residing in Texas can't buy guns?
Mulsims can't buy guns?

What would they say? You are not allowed to carry a weapon at Ft Hood unless you are going to weapons training. All the victims had nothing to defend themselves with.

158 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:28am

re: #150 MandyManners

Kinda sad that the WaPo gets scooped by a mediocre blogger such as myself.

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:33am

re: #144 Sharmuta

Isn't it fascinating that this imam would say muslims can't fight other muslims, yet this doesn't stop islamists from killing muslims in mosques, markets, and homes throughout the muslim world.

I suppose those are Zionist plots though. ///

How the hell did they have an Iran/Iraq war?

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #156 SteveC

My aunt (Combat Nurse, Vietnam) retired as a Lt. Col.

*Waves at Aunt Allie*

Hi, Aunt Allie!

161 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #151 Thanos

The Wapo story makes me want to puke.

Shades of William Arkin.

162 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:06am

re: #154 Conservative Moonbat

I thought that was only relevant to the selective service and not to volentary enlistment?

You could be right, I am not certain on this.

163 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:19am

re: #146 StillAMarine

Likely all too true. But would such a fear on the part of the average Muslim not be a reflection on the ROP all by itself?


of course it does..sharm's #144 sums it up also.

164 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:28am

re: #158 Fenway_Nation

Kinda sad Par for the course that the WaPo gets scooped by a mediocre blogger such as myself.

Fixed that for ya! :)

165 StillAMarine  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:35am

re: #135 J.S.

Definitely. It is about time we took a much stronger stance against radicalism and hate here in North America. There is not too much we can do against those haters who were born here except expose them, but we sure as hell can do more to prevent their foreign elements from entering here in the first place.

166 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:36am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or the civil wars in Algeria, Lebanon or the Sudan...

167 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:39am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How the hell did they have an Iran/Iraq war?

All fitnas are Zionist plots.

168 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:56am

re: #154 Conservative Moonbat

I thought that was only relevant to the selective service and not to volentary enlistment?

Of course. Why would anyone who objected to the military volunteer?

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:27:58am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How the hell did they have an Iran/Iraq war?

It was very complicated. You had to have a whole battalion on each side convert to Unitarianism on the field, and then they'd attack each other.

170 jayzee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:28:36am

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

It was very complicated. You had to have a whole battalion on each side convert to Unitarianism on the field, and then they'd attack each other.

Damn Unitarians.

171 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:29:35am

re: #153 Cato the Elder

That article clearly points out the Fort Dix Six plotters and we're talking about the plots disrupted.

Investigators are seeking to determine the motivations of the Fort Hood suspect, Army Maj. Nidal M. Hasan, in part to understand whether his alleged actions fit in with what experts see as an emerging pattern of plots developed by U.S. citizens or residents rather than foreign attackers.

Federal prosecutors in September charged two North Carolina men for allegedly conspiring to kill personnel at the U.S. Marine Corps base at Quantico, seeking to attack U.S. forces at home if they could not overseas. In June, Abdul Hakim Mujahid Muhammad, an American Muslim convert, allegedly shot and killed one soldier and wounded another at a military recruiting center at Little Rock, Ark., in what he said was retaliation for U.S. counterterrorism policies worldwide.

Also this year, the last of five men was sentenced in April to 33 years in prison for planning to kill soldiers at Fort Dix, N.J., a plot inspired by foreign terrorist groups.

That's not antiwar but the other side.

172 larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:30:08am

I think everyone should read the article carefully. It provides no supporting information and is vague beyond crazy.

Yes, Anwar al Awlaki is a lunatic extremist. But there is no proof that the two communicated or even knew each other. I do think that religious extremism helped push an already unhinged man over the edge. But remember, the man was a Muslim his whole life and a career officer his whole adult life. The extremism seems to have come into play only in the last six months. So what set him off? I think it is far too easy to blame religious extremism as the motive. But in this case, it seems to be simply fuel for an already very hot and burning fire. My concern is why an American soldier lost it to this extent and killed his fellow soldiers. What set him off in the last 6 months?

And yes, the military and the FBI would appear to have dropped the ball on this big time.

But the article simply fails to provide the story. They have an allegation, but no story and no facts to support what they are claiming.

173 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you hear what the Saudis just did to the Yemenis? Not nice...(this is how CBC "news" on their ticker described it: "Saudi Arabia clears mountain of Yemeni rebels." I wonder if the pun on the word "mountain" was intentional?)

174 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:31:45am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How the hell did they have an Iran/Iraq war?

Them Jews are sneaky.

///

175 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:32:43am

re: #171 lawhawk

Then US Attorney Chris Christie was in charge of proseucting the Ft. Dix Fuckwads Six. Wonder if that came up in the campaign at all.

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:32:59am

re: #156 SteveC

I wanna say hi, too!

Hi Aunt Allie!

177 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:33:13am

Did they think his position as a psychiatrist made him less of a threat?

It's sad/infurating when the story goes from "no one saw this coming" to "somebody knew about him, but failed to act."

178 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:34:13am

re: #175 Fenway_Nation

No. It didn't. The campaign made little mention of Christie's terror prosecutions particularly since the corruption prosecutions were a much greater focus in NJ where most residents think that their politicians are corrupt.

OT:
Looks like things are heating up in the Yemeni/Saudi corner, and Iran may be involved as well.

179 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:34:33am

re: #177 Gearhead

Did they think his position as a psychiatrist made him less of a threat?

It's sad/infurating when the story goes from "no one saw this coming" to "somebody knew about him, but failed to act."

And the reasons why are even more sad.

180 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:34:54am

Charles, here's your answer: the military is choked with political correctness and the people attend more "sensitivity training" than any other career I'm aware of. Reporting a minority for having extreme religious views would be enough to ruin/end your military career.

Notice 3 things:

Army COS Casey's nauseating statement about diversity and that it would be a worse tragedy if the Army's diversity was injured. Yes, he really said that. My husband's reaction was profane, and he said that's why he's going to retire without seeking to make general, because of BS like that.

The people who raised the flag (who we know about) were either full colonels who were about to retire anyway and a civilian doctor who was in the public health master's program with him.

This is a guy who wouldn't interact with women or be photographed in any group that involved a woman. So he was protected from being expelled for misogyny because of his minority muslim status.

Senator Joe Lieberman is going to hold hearings that probably won't change anything, but hopefully will get the slow, slow process of the defeat of crippling PC nonsense in the military and the civilian world.

181 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:34:55am

The real burning question I have is the balance that needs to be maintained about what to do. At no point, repeat at no point, do I think that all Muslims should ever be painted with a bad brush.

That said, it seems pretty clear that the radical fringe is still hear and is still a bit more mainstream than I had given credit for. Falls Church Va is about as mainstream, suburban and middle class America as you could get. My point is that if jihadis are in places like that spreading their propaganda - no doubt largely funded by unpleasant foreign regimes, we actually do have a wide spread problem.

So the very serious question, which I do not have a good answer for, is how do we hunt the bad guys without stepping on the rights of innocent Muslims?

A second question is, if we have this sort of stuff going on behind the scenes, I mean deep radicalization that will produce lone actors and unaffiliated terrorist cells, which are frankly, difficult to stop until after they've acted, how do we nip these things in the bud?

For sure, there have been a number of high profile arrests lately before anything went down. I give kudos to our intelligence and law enforcement communities for that.

I am concerned about three things.

1. A lot of Americans have gotten bored it seems with the reality that there really are some nasty Jihadi groups out there who want to kill us all. Awareness needs to be maintained.

2. In the course of being more aware, we do not punish the innocent along with the guilty.

3. If there are these types of jihadis preaching in American Mosques, why do we leave them here?

182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:35:05am

Here's a shout-out to American Soldiers who are Muslim who are serving our country proudly and loyally!

183 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:35:19am

re: #172 larisa

I have been holding off in concluding that religion played a role in this attack, but as the week has gone on, more and more information about hasan's religious views leaning towards fundamentalism have come to light, and I can't continue to exclude religious motivations. I'm not sure if you've been following all of LGF's posts about this issue, but I recommend this post. This has been going on for much longer than the past 6 months.

184 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:36:36am

But Janet-the-Apologist has her priorities all straight. Right?
Manage feelings first, think about American lives later.
Or not.
[Link: www.google.com...]

185 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:37:09am

re: #172 larisa

The extremism seems to have come into play only in the last six months.

Wrong.

A key U.S. senator called Sunday for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs that the man accused of opening fire at Fort Hood had embraced an increasingly extremist view of Islamic ideology.

Sen. Joe Lieberman's call came as word surfaced that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan apparently attended the same Virginia mosque as two Sept. 11 hijackers in 2001, at a time when a radical imam preached there. Whether Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, associated with the hijackers is something the FBI will probably look into, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

Classmates participating in a 2007-2008 master's program at a military college complained repeatedly to superiors about what they considered Hasan's anti-American views. Dr. Val Finnell said Hasan gave a presentation at the Uniformed Services University that justified suicide bombing and even told classmates that Islamic law trumped the U.S. Constitution.

SNIP

186 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:38:14am
187 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:38:44am

re: #173 J.S.

Did you hear what the Saudis just did to the Yemenis? Not nice...(this is how CBC "news" on their ticker described it: "Saudi Arabia clears mountain of Yemeni rebels." I wonder if the pun on the word "mountain" was intentional?)

The Saudi and Yemeni governments are cooperating.

188 jvic  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #12 NJDhockeyfan

General George Casey seems to be more concerned about 'diversity' than cleaning up the radical islamists in the military.

WTF??? Political correctness has become deadly.

I'm not NYT-registered, so here's another link:

Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey said Sunday it's important for the country not to get caught up in speculation about Hasan's Muslim faith, and he has instructed his commanders to be on the lookout for anti-Muslim reaction to the killings at the Texas post. (p)He says focusing on the Islamic roots of the suspected shooter could "heighten the backlash" against all Muslims in the military. (p)Casey says diversity in the military "gives us strength."

In a country with civilian control of the military, IMO it's none of a serving general's public business what the country does or does not get caught up in. Especially a general on whose watch a horrendous security breach occurred.

Casey was in command when Iraq was almost lost. He apparently opposed the surge. (NB: I'm not stating whether the invasion was/wasn't a good strategic idea, and I acknowledge that the Iraqi govt may not prove viable.)

I'm wondering if Casey is a political general who should not have been promoted to Chief of Staff & whose apparent careerist PC sucking-up should get him fired.

re: #180 funky chicken

Saw your post after typing the above.

189 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:40:17am

Really slowed to a crawl here, referrers shows influx from Memeorandum

190 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:40:17am

re: #171 lawhawk

That article clearly points out the Fort Dix Six plotters and we're talking about the plots disrupted.

That's not antiwar but the other side.

So are the militia wingnuts.

191 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:40:40am
Dr. Val Finnell said Hasan gave a presentation at the Uniformed Services University that justified suicide bombing and even told classmates that Islamic law trumped the U.S. Constitution.

civilian Dr. Val Finell; faces no threat to his career for reporting the islamist extremism

of course the PC generals ignored the reports

and this was during the GW Bush administration, so no screaming that this is all Obama's fault...

192 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:40:50am

re: #185 MandyManners

Classmates participating in a 2007-2008 master's program at a military college complained repeatedly to superiors about what they considered Hasan's anti-American views.

2007-2008, eh? I think we all know what that means.

Not only is pre-PTSD infectious, it also transcends time and space! We could all be suffering the deleterious effects of PTSD from the Future! Yet another reason for nationalized healthcare, if you ask me.

193 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:41:27am

re: #188 jvic

Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey said Sunday it's important for the country not to get caught up in speculation about Hasan's Muslim faith

Casey doesn't need to worry about America's speculations. He needs to worry about DEFENDING America.

194 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:41:35am

re: #184 tradewind

Don't worry! DHS is doing the best they can to protect us from those nasty right wing militias! Like the one Carlos Bledsoe belonged to.

Did I say Carlos? I meant 'Abdulhakim'...

195 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:41:58am

re: #172 larisa
It's easy to blame religious extremism, you bet'cha. Because that's what happened here.
Notice I did not say blame his religion, rather his extremism. And it had been evident for many years, according to his colleagues and students.

196 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:43:30am

It would be nice for google to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall on their home page today. Instead they have Count Chocula.

197 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:43:31am

re: #188 jvic

Casey & Napolitano have been warning about anti-muslim backlashes instead of concentrating on the shooter & his reasons why. Maybe this can rectify their concerns.

Muslim Veterans Group Says No Reports of Harassment of Islamic Soldiers

A Muslim veteran affairs organization says it has not received reports of harassment from Islamic soldiers, contrary to claims by a relative of the man authorities say is responsible for the worst mass killing on a U.S. military base.

Abdul-Rashid Abdullah, deputy director of the American Muslim Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Council, told FoxNews.com that the nonprofit group has not received a single report recently of a U.S. soldier being harassed "simply because he was Muslim."

"That kind of report is inconsistent with what we've heard," Abdullah said prior to a press conference in Washington to denounce Thursday's shooting at Fort Hood, Texas, that left 13 dead and 38 wounded. Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, a 39-year-old Army psychiatrist who was reportedly due to be deployed later this month, is accused in the mass shooting.

198 acwgusa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:44:11am

My employer lost one of our staff in the shooting at Ft. Hood.

That most likely says exactly who I work for, but Charles can already see that.

199 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:44:22am

re: #193 MandyManners

Casey doesn't need to worry about America's speculations. He needs to worry about DEFENDING America.

Yeah, General George Casey...

Bush slaps down top general after he calls for troops to be pulled out of Iraq

The top American commander in Iraq has been privately rebuked by the Bush administration for openly discussing plans to reduce troop levels there next year, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

President George W Bush personally intervened last week to play down as "speculation" all talk of troop pull-outs because he fears that even discussing options for an "exit strategy" implies weakening resolve.

Gen George Casey, the US ground commander in Iraq, was given his dressing-down after he briefed that troop levels - now 138,000 - could be reduced by 30,000 in the early months of next year as Iraqi security forces take on a greater role.

SNIP

200 The Optimist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:44:40am

re: #182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here's a shout-out to American Soldiers who are Muslim who are serving our country proudly and loyally!

Thanks BV. Our country is out to help people have human rights and decent living conditions regardless of religion or race. THE U.S. IS NOT OUT TO KILL MUSLIMS. Without U.S. strength, Muslims countries would devolve back into chaos, anger, and hatred. Muslims in our military are the best thing for Muslims around the World.

201 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:44:45am

re: #181 LudwigVanQuixote

CNN filed a report (from Drew G.) about radical preachers (looked like/reminded me of what goes on in the UK) standing outside a mosque in NY City (the imam of the mosque has repeatedly phoned police to complain about the radicals standing outside the mosque, and shouting out their hate messages -- but the police can do nothing -- due to the First Amendment.) the report, (I'd have to read the transcript) suggested that the radicals had been indirectly implicated in recruiting people who went on to attempt violence (these followers were apprehended and arrested...but the actual fomenters, the instigators, continue merrily along because they don't cross the line into actual "incitement." Maybe laws need to be changed, and think of this as per mafia -- you know -- arrest the instigators as co-conspirators to violence...like Mafia bosses who tell the underlings to commit crime X (?)

202 Stanghazi  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:45:12am

re: #196 Mad Al-Jaffee

It would be nice for google to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall on their home page today. Instead they have Count Chocula.

I agree, but want to correct - it's The Count, from Sesame Street (40th anniv.)

203 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:45:18am

re: #192 Diamond Bullet

2007-2008, eh? I think we all know what that means.

Not only is pre-PTSD infectious, it also transcends time and space! We could all be suffering the deleterious effects of PTSD from the Future! Yet another reason for nationalized healthcare, if you ask me.

In the past it was just a prophecy, but now the past has occurred.

204 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:45:40am

re: #186 venezuela lover

When will Obama stop making alibis for radical Muslims

When he stops making excuses and apologizing for the evils of America.///
We are celebrating the fall of the Berlin Wall twenty years ago this month . Had Obama or his ilk been president, would the wall have come down?
Not a chance.

205 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:45:41am

re: #187 MandyManners

Yes. But it wasn't just "rebels" being bombed by the Saudi air force...they hit marketplaces and killed scores of civilians...(according to some reports.)

206 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:45:50am

re: #190 Cato the Elder

GAZE

207 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:46:08am

re: #180 funky chicken

In addition to the PC, a veteran I spoke with suggested that elitism is at work--that an enlisted man would have been out on his ear long before this, but an officer gets more leeway. What do you (and your husband, if available for comment) think?

208 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:47:02am

re: #203 bosforus

In the past it was just a prophecy, but now the past has occurred.

Argh, screwed that quote up:
You don't remember because then it was only a prophecy, but now, in the future, the past has occurred.

209 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:47:40am

The appropriate officers were notified. They hesitated.

An analogy: when the engineers had reservations about launching Challenger, the higher-ups had to make a decision. If they scrubbed the launch, there would be political repercussions and there would never be any proof that scrubbing it had been necessary. That's a no-win situation. Brave men have made no-win decisions before, and lost by them, and saved us a world of trouble. We never really know who they were, because in the nature of these decisions, the precautions they take always can be painted as unnecessary. Unsurprisingly, even in the military, this kind of moral courage, a courage which can never be recognized as courage when it manifests and is likely to be labeled prejudice or jumping at shadows, is sometimes lacking.

There must be a change of climate, coming from the top. Do ask, do tell. Profiling is a word that doesn't apply to well founded reservations and suspicions stemming from concrete evidence.

210 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:47:52am

re: #205 J.S.

Yes. But it wasn't just "rebels" being bombed by the Saudi air force...they hit marketplaces and killed scores of civilians...(according to some reports.)

I posted a link to the story this weekend but I don't recall that. However, perhaps you've read a more recent account.

That said, look at how the world reacts if Saudis kill civilians v. how it reacts if we do it by accident.

211 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:48:01am

re: #205 J.S.

Yea...but if you belived the Taliban, Al Qaeda or the Al Shabaab militia, American airstrikes or predator drone attacks do nothing but wipe out marketplaces and wedding parties.

212 Slim_Junior  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:48:24am

I think there's enough evidence in that it can now be said:

The Religion of Peace strikes again.

213 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:49:15am

Yes, do not speculate. This is subject to verification, e-i-e-i-o. But just came across this:

Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut

Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.

He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.

Colleagues had expected a discussion on a medical issue but were instead given an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which Hasan appeared to believe.

SNIP

214 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #202 Stanley Sea

I agree, but want to correct - it's The Count, from Sesame Street (40th anniv.)

I knew that. I was just kidding about it being Count Chocula. If it was up to me, I would rather have Count Blah, from Greg The Bunny.

215 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:50:11am

re: #212 Slim_Junior

Welcome, hatchling.

I don't think a religion struck. A religious nut, perhaps, but not the whole religion.

216 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:50:13am

re: #207 wrenchwench

In addition to the PC, a veteran I spoke with suggested that elitism is at work--that an enlisted man would have been out on his ear long before this, but an officer gets more leeway. What do you (and your husband, if available for comment) think?

Hmmm. PC protects minority oddballs on the E side also, but my husband has said many times that the NCOs are way, way harder on the Jr. enlisted guys than officers ever are on their own.

Even in the Air Force the NCOs are apparently really mean when necessary. He said pissed off Marine senior NCOs are a sight to behold.

But...could they have gotten the guy kicked out? Maybe yes, maybe no.

217 The Optimist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:51:07am

So Obama went to Copenhagen to address the meaningless Olympic committee and will make a trip to Oslo for a meaningless award, but cannot make a trip today to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall.

The conclusion is Obama does only meaningless things.

218 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:51:33am

re: #214 Mad Al-Jaffee

I knew that. I was just kidding about it being Count Chocula. If it was up to me, I would rather have Count Blah, from Greg The Bunny.

I was always more of a Count DeMoney fan.

219 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:51:46am

re: #213 Gus 802

Yes, do not speculate. This is subject to verification, e-i-e-i-o. But just came across this:

Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut

Same as these incidents?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

220 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:51:53am

re: #202 Stanley Sea

I agree, but want to correct - it's The Count, from Sesame Street (40th anniv.)

I've been enjoying muppets on google.

221 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:01am

re: #216 funky chicken

Thanks for the input.

222 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:15am

re: #213 Gus 802
Heads need to roll in the ranks of the brass who allowed this ticking time bomb to remain in his position. If not, it will be forgotten by all but the families, and it will happen again.

223 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:25am

re: #205 J.S.

Yes. But it wasn't just "rebels" being bombed by the Saudi air force...they hit marketplaces and killed scores of civilians...(according to some reports.)

Just like George Bush did in Iraq!

///

224 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:31am

re: #217 venezuela lover

So Obama went to Copenhagen to address the meaningless Olympic committee and will make a trip to Oslo for a meaningless award, but cannot make a trip today to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall.

The conclusion is Obama does only meaningless things.

Hey, he's gotta consider his carbon footprint.
///

225 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:36am

re: #217 venezuela lover

So Obama went to Copenhagen to address the meaningless Olympic committee and will make a trip to Oslo for a meaningless award, but cannot make a trip today to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall.

The conclusion is Obama does only meaningless things.

I'm glad that he's not in Berlin.

226 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:51am

re: #220 Sharmuta

I've been enjoying muppets on google.

That sounds like a band's name.

227 Thor-Zone  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:54am

At this point I really don't care what Mr. Obama says, this was a terrorist attack, plain and simple.

Here's why:
1. Statements made by Maj Hasan regarding Afghanistan and Iraq
2. Getting his "affairs" in order the morning before the attack
3. Saying Alieu Akbar as be began to shoot
4. His choice of targets (troops getting to leave for Afghanistan and Iraq)

228 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:52:55am

re: #219 MandyManners

Same as these incidents?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

I think so. Was also mentioned in the NPR report.

229 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:05am

re: #215 wrenchwench

Welcome, hatchling.

I don't think a religion struck. A religious nut, perhaps, but not the whole religion.

This sort of action is sanctioned by the Koran, the Koran informs the Immans, the Imman informs the Muslim community. Some Immans ignore the radical aspects, some members ignore the radical aspects, but... the foundation of this kind of radical action IS THE RELIGION.

Or do you know of another source?

230 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:06am

Iran closing schools

Iran announced on Saturday the temporary closure of 271 schools in the cities across Tehran Province due to the death of 33 infected people with H1N1 virus.

231 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:41am

re: #217 venezuela lover
Why would he want to celebrate the triumph of the American spirit?///
Sorry, but that puts me into major snark mode. This is not an unintelligent man. There is no an excuse for this display of cluelessness.

232 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #186 venezuela lover

This is a good point that needs to be looked at from both sides.

The issue is that both are right. Obviously the Major was not an impoverished, hopeless sort. Obviously there is more to extremism than just social pressures. Obviously a lifestyle filled with secular benefits is not a perfect inoculation against violence. It is a false meme of many that somehow only social pressures produce hateful acts and views.

Walk with me for a minute though on the other side. People who have a full belly, regular employment and things to do couled with the hope of providing for their families to a standard they would deem fit, are less likely to be filled with the sense of rage and helplessness that causes them to look for scapegoats and lash out.

The core of any supremacist movement, be they nazis or stalinists or jihadis is a culture of victim hood and a romantic notion that the worm has turned. The message is always that they should be the rulers, and it mus be someone else's fault that they are not. Blaming others for all of their woes prevents them from having to take responsibility for themselves, and as they look into their pathetic and empty souls, they can feel a part of a grand cause, and something greater.

While it does not work for everyone, having a steady and meaningful job, and the benefits of not living in poverty and a sense of political hopelessness puts some extreme body blows to the central ingredient of victim hood needed to spread an extremist message. Of course, the flip side of that is having all of those things and being scared green of losing them. That would be the message of the Tea Partiers.

The way this thinking applies to Gaza is actually direct, however, difficult to apply. The Palestinians themselves do not have a notion that they are ever responsible for anything. When they elect a violent terrorist regime, it does not occur to them that the regime will act like brutal terrorists or that they indeed have some responsibilities for the wars it starts. Further, with such regimes like that in place, efforts to educate the Palis and provide them with the basis of an economy are always bled dry by the radicals.

The ultimate fix for the Mid East, must rest on trade with a viable set of Arab states. For the common Arab, there must be more to live for in their own minds. However, to be viable Arab states, they must adopt minimal standards of taking care of their own people and assuming responsibility for their own actions. I do not see anyway to do this without somehow taking over their entire education system, rebuilding their economies from the ground up, and simply killing all the jihadis.

Ultimately this is why the Mid East situation is so intractable. The people there need to want peace, and the things that would make them want peace are disrupted by their own leaders.

233 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #228 Gus 802

I think so. Was also mentioned in the NPR report.

It's making the rounds.

234 webevintage  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #217 venezuela lover

So Obama went to Copenhagen to address the meaningless Olympic committee and will make a trip to Oslo for a meaningless award, but cannot make a trip today to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall.

The conclusion is Obama does only meaningless things.

and if he went he would be accused of being an egomaniac who wants all the focus on him who had nothing to do with the fall of the Berlin wall so what the hell is he doing there anyway spending tax payer money flying all over the world.
Oh and he kicks puppies in the morning...

235 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:54:06am

re: #217 venezuela lover

Really? You think he should go to Berlin and not Fort Hood tomorrow?

236 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:54:35am

re: #217 venezuela lover

Being in Berlin on the eve of of the anniversary of Krystallnacht while simultaneously snubbing a visit by Netanyahu would not be the right choice to make for any president.

237 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:54:36am

re: #225 MandyManners

Why, he'll just call himself a jelly-donut. /

G-d bless RWR.

238 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #145 Thanos

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

I think "Conscientious objector" is created for those whose religious beliefs prevent them from participating in any war, not just wars they don't like. We had Christians fighting other Christians of the same sect, and Jews fighting other Jews during the ACW. But since Muslims fight other Muslims all over the world, this could not apply to them.

239 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:02am

re: #224 funky chicken
Date night?///
Sorry to shoot that theory down...
Even though I know you were kidding. Just another bit of Presidential cognitive dissonance that makes you go hmmm.

240 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:07am

re: #205 J.S.

Yes. But it wasn't just "rebels" being bombed by the Saudi air force...they hit marketplaces and killed scores of civilians...(according to some reports.)

If they do it again, they will probably have less trouble with extremists in Yemen. Or maybe it'll be a ones step learning curve for the Yemenis.

Yemen's a fundamentalist hotbed, so...and if the Saudis will actually do something so we don't have to be the only fighter, well...show me a war that didn't cause civilian casualties.

241 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:11am

re: #233 MandyManners

It's making the rounds.

Yep. It all happened at Walter Reed Hospital in DC. Don't know when but he worked there for 6 years.

242 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:42am

PIMF, ' not ' an excuse.

243 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #237 badger1970

Why, he'll just call himself a jelly-donut. /

G-d bless RWR.

And all the veterans who fought in the proxy wars that helped bleed the Soviet Union dry.

244 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:55:49am

re: #201 J.S.

Well, I would imagine that there are various things that could be done under the riot act. Obviously I am opposed to infringing freedom to assemble or freedom of political speech. However, it would seem to me that calls for the violent overthrow of the government are already illegal.

245 Slim_Junior  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:56:20am

re: #215 wrenchwench

I don't think a religion struck. A religious nut, perhaps, but not the whole religion.

What about these cases?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

246 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:57:08am

re: #235 Sharmuta

Really? You think he should go to Berlin and not Fort Hood tomorrow?

He should have went to Ft Hood this weekend or sooner.

247 webevintage  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:57:10am

re: #243 MandyManners

And all the veterans who fought in the proxy wars that helped bleed the Soviet Union dry.

and Pope John Paul...

248 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:57:18am

re: #225 MandyManners

Yeah...but keep in mind he snubbed the Berlin invite long before the Ft. Hood shootings took place.

Unless you mean you're glad he isn't in Berlin because he'll use the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the Wall coming down to talk about how great he is and how flawed and arrogant a country he's President of.

249 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote
They were being shouted in the streets of NYC after the Ft. Hood attacks , incited by one of the radical imams. I doubt he was arrested. So evidently, calling for the violent overthrow of the US is now copacetic.

250 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:57:35am

re: #229 Walter L. Newton

This sort of action is sanctioned by the Koran, the Koran informs the Immans, the Imman informs the Muslim community. Some Immans ignore the radical aspects, some members ignore the radical aspects, but... the foundation of this kind of radical action IS THE RELIGION.

Or do you know of another source?

Then why is it only a "tiny minority" who take up arms?

PS: Imams

251 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:58:28am

re: #249 tradewind

They were being shouted in the streets of NYC after the Ft. Hood attacks , incited by one of the radical imams. I doubt he was arrested. So evidently, calling for the violent overthrow of the US is now copacetic.

Well that simply is not acceptable.

252 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:58:33am

re: #235 Sharmuta

He wasn't planning on going to go to Berlin even before the terrorist act at Ft. Hood.

253 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:58:38am

Well, gotta go cook for the husband's birthday. :-)

254 Baier  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:58:43am

re: #217 venezuela lover

So Obama went to Copenhagen to address the meaningless Olympic committee and will make a trip to Oslo for a meaningless award, but cannot make a trip today to celebrate the fall of the Berlin wall.

The conclusion is Obama does only meaningless things.

Obama does not celebrate accomplishment (unless it's his own), he only apportions blame.

255 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #246 NJDhockeyfan

He should have went to Ft Hood this weekend or sooner.

And snub the Berlin Wall?! ///

I think the issue here is there's no way Obama can please everyone. I think I'd rather have him stay and attend the memorial service tomorrow then go to Europe.

256 Thor-Zone  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:59:05am

Hey Lawhawk...

Speaking of Anwar al-Awlaki there is some good stuff posted today about some of his sermons, and the people involved in the Fort Dix thing over at Counterterrorism Blog. Check it out.

257 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 10:59:49am

re: #245 Slim_Junior

What about these cases?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Religious nuts, religiously motivated nuts, etc., etc., even when it's jihad, it's not the whole damn religion, even if it's a whole mosque or a whole sect, it's not the whole religion. Are you one of those who says there are no moderate Muslims?

258 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #212 Slim_Junior

I think there's enough evidence in that it can now be said:

The Religion of Peace strikes again.

...and again...

Militants behead school principal in Philippines

MANILA (Reuters) - Muslim militants beheaded a school principal on a remote southern island in the Philippines after holding him for ransom for three weeks, a marine general said on Monday.

Major-General Ben Dolorfino, commander of military forces in the western part of Mindanao region, said the victim's decapitated head was found at a petrol station in the capital town on Jolo island.

"We were told the school principal was beheaded on Sunday when the negotiations to free him bogged down," Dolorfino said.

259 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:00:19am

Aside form the murder investigation itself, there needs to be a thorough inquiry as to how this man was allowed to remain in the US Army when all this information was known.

260 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:00:48am

re: #259 captdiggs

Aside form the murder investigation itself, there needs to be a thorough inquiry as to how this man was allowed to remain in the US Army when all this information was known.

I am certain that there will be a number of sacrificial lambs.

261 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:01:04am

OK lizards...time for some lunch

Take care!

262 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:01:07am

I hereby retract my prior assertion that this guy was as much a Jihadi as Al Sharpton is a humanitarian.

He was a Jihadi and went for SJS.

That said, he was still a whack job that found comfort and cultivation of his ill-found feelings of persecution in the Islamist cul-de-sac.

And it is fair to assume, IMO, that the Army Medical Service Corps was too PC to recognize it.

Islam is absent a reformation and as long as society lets people take refuge in their persecution complexes via a safe zone of religious zealotry and bigotry then we are all under threat from such lunatics.

And while many will try to draw parallels between radical Chrisitans and radical Islamists they need to be mindful that the empirical evidence shows that the radical Islamist is more likely to act violently and one shouldn't refuse to concede that point in order to preserve a false symmetry that Political Correctness demands.

263 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:01:27am

re: #241 Gus 802

Yep. It all happened at Walter Reed Hospital in DC. Don't know when but he worked there for 6 years.

His preaching that crap happened in 2007-2008.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

264 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #260 LudwigVanQuixote

I am certain that there will be a number of sacrificial lambs.

There should be.
Someone...more than one, screwed up very badly and it cost lives.

265 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:03am

re: #258 NJDhockeyfan

And that is what I mean by the Jihadis themselves fight the very forces that would educate away the need for jihad. That is also why I think the only answer for them is to hunt them down and kill them.

266 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:06am

re: #247 webevintage

and Pope John Paul...

And, Lech Walesa.

267 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:06am

re: #194 Fenway_Nation
I thought she was Homeland Security Chief. When was the title changed to Emotional Security Chief?
Napolitano goes not to Ft. Hood, but to Zayed University to reassure and vow protection?
What's wrong with that picture?

268 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #250 wrenchwench

Then why is it only a "tiny minority" who take up arms?

PS: Imams

It doesn't matter, it is the religion, the foundational text informs, it has the rules, just because the majority of followers have reasonably decided to ignore the more radical aspects of the texts, does not change those texts, does it? It's the religion.

269 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:46am

re: #248 Fenway_Nation

Yeah...but keep in mind he snubbed the Berlin invite long before the Ft. Hood shootings took place.

Unless you mean you're glad he isn't in Berlin because he'll use the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the Wall coming down to talk about how great he is and how flawed and arrogant a country he's President of.

Yep.

270 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:02:49am

re: #252 badger1970
Bad judgement right there.
In the case of Ft Hood, he should have made time.
Was he afraid of being not cheered ?

271 rwmofo  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:03:01am

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Of course. Why would anyone who objected to the military volunteer?

"Free" college.

272 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:03:17am

re: #263 MandyManners

His preaching that crap happened in 2007-2008.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Right. I forgot about that. This was at the Uniformed Services University.

273 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:04:11am

re: #258 NJDhockeyfan

Reuters wouldn't know a terrorist if it bit them on the ass.

274 Slim_Junior  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:04:11am

re: #257 wrenchwench

Religious nuts, religiously motivated nuts, etc., etc., even when it's jihad, it's not the whole damn religion, even if it's a whole mosque or a whole sect, it's not the whole religion.

Does that response also reply to the posts shown at the link?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Are you one of those who says there are no moderate Muslims?

No.

275 The Optimist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:04:29am

re: #235 Sharmuta

Really? You think he should go to Berlin and not Fort Hood tomorrow?

I pray for Obama to say the right words tomorrow at Fort Hood. Use the teleprompter by all means. Obama should not apologize for Hasan, excuse Hasan's behavior, or blame the victims or the United States. Above all, Obama should not change or rationalize our foreign policy because of this one obviously hateful man. Obama should stand firm and say louder than ever that we are going to win the two wars to honor these fallen soldiers.

276 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:04:40am

AP Report:
President Barack Obama to scrub visit to Berlin in response to the attack at Fort Hood!
...Because all the media is IN Fort Hood!

277 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:04:44am

re: #269 MandyManners
Oh, HRC is taking up that slack. Talking now about the walls that keep people down.
Really, I'm surprised that Obama didn't take advantage of the opportunity to spin a speech about the walls built by Obama.
Wait/// he sent a video.

278 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:05:12am

re: #256 Thor-Zone

One step ahead of you as I posted on that this morning.

279 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:05:16am

Sgt. Elliot Valdez talks about the shooting at Fort Hood and his role as a photo journalist.

280 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:06am

re: #235 Sharmuta

I sure don't.

281 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

I do not see anyway to do this without somehow taking over their entire education system, rebuilding their economies from the ground up, and simply killing all the jihadis.

Wow. I never thought I'd see you express the same thinking Dick Cheney. Well done.

282 Maui Girl  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #277 tradewind

Okay, so Obama does make an appearance. A bellowing, echoing message being spewed forth via a large big screen. Feels kinda creepy to me.

283 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #246 NJDhockeyfan

He should have went to Ft Hood this weekend or sooner.

Then his entourage would have been in the way of investigators and we'd have folks complaining about that, or that he went when he did because he's an opportunist.

284 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:33am

re: #240 funky chicken

(the conversation evolved in this way -- Hasan claimed that Muslims shouldn't kill other Muslims, that it was against the Koran; then someone noted the Iran Iraq war back in the 80s; and I noted the current Saudi vs Yemen "rebels" (actually maybe yet another Sunni vs Shiite "problem.")...

285 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:06:40am

re: #275 venezuela lover
He's going to Ft Hood?
Let's hope the military has done a sweep before he gets there.

286 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:07:14am

re: #282 Maui Girl

It's kind of fitting... an echo and a giant head.

287 SteveC  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:07:25am

re: #277 tradewind

Wait/// he sent a video.

Is the video in the correct format?

288 The Optimist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:07:32am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks for the Analysis LVQ. I strongly agree that Arab nations must take responsibility for their own people.

289 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:07:33am

Did Hasan treat prisoners?

290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:07:45am

re: #266 MandyManners

And, Lech Walesa.

Margaret Thatcher.

291 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:08:07am

re: #275 venezuela lover

OK- but I noticed you didn't answer my question. I'll have to assume you think Fort Hood might be more important for the president to attend then the events in Berlin.

292 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:08:10am

re: #274 Slim_Junior

Does that response also reply to the posts shown at the link?

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Since that link contains "Results 1 - 10 of about 7,000 from littlegreenfootballs.com", I did not read them all, but since I've been reading here for several years, I have a pretty good idea of the general drift. and the answer to your question, IMHO, is yes.

293 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:08:22am
294 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:08:24am

re: #283 Sharmuta
More like he needed time to assess the possible effects and weigh his options. No rushing in.///

295 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:08:25am

re: #277 tradewind

Oh, HRC is taking up that slack. Talking now about the walls that keep people down.Really, I'm surprised that Obama didn't take advantage of the opportunity to spin a speech about the walls built by Obama.
Wait/// he sent a video.

Are you shitting me? SHE'S THE SECRETARY OF STATE! NOT A FUCKING CHEERLEADER FOR PROGRESSIVE POLICIES.

296 mikhailtheplumber  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #196 Mad Al-Jaffee

It would be nice for google to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall on their home page today. Instead they have Count Chocula.

That's Sesame Street's Count Von Count, Mr.
Be respectful.

//

297 Maui Girl  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:14am

re: #286 tradewind

It's kind of fitting... an echo and a giant head.

Uproarious laughter has spewed from thine mouth.

298 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:16am

re: #183 Sharmuta

No question Awlaki is a lunatic and extremist. But I still don't see how ABC managed to conclude that the two were communicating. The sourcing is terrible and claims are misleading. They simply don't have the story. That is my concern. Given the explosive nature of the allegations and the already tense situations (anti-Muslim sentiment), I would hope that a responsible journalist would have a solid story rather than what this is, which is nothing.

As I noted, religious extremism seems to have absolutely come into play here, but I don't think it is the motive in an of itself. The man has been a career military officer all of his life. Correct me as I may be wrong here, but he is nearly 40 years of age. How does one go their entire lives being a career military man, a moderate Muslim and then boom, snap into mass murder of your fellow soldiers? Something triggered this. It may very well be true that the something was meeting with extremists at the mosque. But there is simply no evidence for this - yet anyway. That is my whole point.

The Malkinite ilk have already run wild into the night with this claiming that the military has been infiltrated by Jihadi terrorists. There are Muslims serving our country this very minute. Surely they deserve the same respect as all of our soldiers and surely we owe them more than damning the whole culture and religion, which is what is happening now as the fires are being stoked. ABC should have waited for a more solid story. This is terribly negligent. Assuming it pans out, then we have very serious issues to deal with relating to military and FBI failure. But if it does not pan out, how do we put out the hate fires burning right now and getting hotter by the moment?

299 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:17am

re: #213 Gus 802

Yes, do not speculate. This is subject to verification, e-i-e-i-o. But just came across this:

Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut

Sort of. This story was reported last week, with the important detail that these were passages Hassan had gleaned from various Islamic readings, and weren't presented directly as his own words or views. I first saw the version presented here yesterday; it omits the context and puts the words directly into Hassan's mouth.

I think the original version is more accurate, and if so I'd rather not see this one circulating, simply because it gives Hassan something to denounce as misrepresentation if it turns out to be...well, a misrepresentation.

I feel strongly that the pure, unvarnished facts will be more than sufficient to ensure his conviction and punishment.

300 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:31am

re: #293 lawhawk

President Bush has already made a low profile visit to Fort Hood to meet privately with the survivors and relatives from their ranch in nearby Crawford.

I bet his entourage didn't get in the way of investigators.
;)

301 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:09:58am

re: #277 tradewind

Oh, HRC is taking up that slack. Talking now about the walls that keep people down.
Really, I'm surprised that Obama didn't take advantage of the opportunity to spin a speech about the walls built by Obama.
Wait/// he sent a video.

I was so pissed at Clinton that I missed that part.

Is Pres. George H.W. Bush there?

302 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:10:16am

re: #293 lawhawk

Holy shit!!
Way to go George!!
LOL
They could not have done this without Obamas knoledge could they!?

303 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:10:36am

re: #293 lawhawk
Of course he has. It's the way he operated with the fallen's families when he was POTUS.
/Don't tell Cato, though. He'll find the hidden motive/.

304 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:10:39am

re: #289 Noam Sayin'

Did Hasan treat prisoners?

No.

305 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:11:49am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

I do not see anyway to do this without somehow taking over their entire education system, rebuilding their economies from the ground up, and simply killing all the jihadis.

Who is someone? If it is the US, how do we pay for it? And why should we shoulder the burden when all of the world would benefit from the result.

Congress is in the process of spending sum far larger than any GWB did and seems on a pattern to continue to.

I have been a long time advocate of the US liberating those around the world from their oppressors but it now seems that we can't even pay our own bills.

So who is going to pay for it?

306 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:11:55am

re: #295 MandyManners
You'd have thunk.
HRC is not limited to any pre-determined job description. She's created her own.///

307 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:11:59am

re: #296 mikhailtheplumber

That's Sesame Street's Count Von Count, Mr.
Be respectful.

//

That's TWO, TWO times my post has been corrected! I should have included a smiley in it.

308 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:12:05am

re: #301 MandyManners

They were in London yesterday commemorating "Remembrance Sunday"; For those who watch the EPL, the tribute to veterans before kickoff was touching (especially the Man U v. Chelsea).

309 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #299 SixDegrees

I know. The facts will come out in the trial.

310 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:12:53am

re: #298 Larisa

I'm going to say that the story is likely right even though I am skeptical until sources and information are clarified. One unnamed source I would say "pish" but ABC is citing two sources, and Lieberman seems independently concerned.

311 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:13:02am

Here is one of his friends from the local mosque in an interview with the BBC.

Duane : I'm not going to condemn him for what he did. I don't know why he did it. I will not, absolutely not, condemn him for what he had done though. If he had done it for selfish reasons I still will not condemn him. He's my brother in the end. I will never condemn him.
Gavin Lee : There might be a lot of people shocked to hear you say that.
Duane: Well, that's the way it is. I don't speak for the community here but me personally I will not condemn him.
Gavin Lee : What are your thoughts towards those that were victims in this?
Duane : They were, in the end, they were troops who were going to Afghanistan and Iraq to kill Muslims. I honestly have no pity for them. It's just like the majority of the people that will hear this, after five or six minutes they'll be shocked, after that they'll forget about them and go on their day.

Video:

312 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:13:09am

re: #298 Larisa

As I noted, religious extremism seems to have absolutely come into play here, but I don't think it is the motive in an of itself. The man has been a career military officer all of his life. Correct me as I may be wrong here, but he is nearly 40 years of age. How does one go their entire lives being a career military man, a moderate Muslim and then boom, snap into mass murder of your fellow soldiers? Something triggered this. It may very well be true that the something was meeting with extremists at the mosque. But there is simply no evidence for this - yet anyway. That is my whole point.

Where are you getting your information that he was a life long moderate muslim? We have reports from years ago that he was closer to fundamentalist islam than moderate islam. I suggest you listen to that NPR report, because when hasan was confronted by an actual moderate muslim, he angrily stared the person down. THAT is the point of his attendance at a mosque with a radical imam. He wasn't a moderate.

313 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:13:13am

re: #304 ausador

Thanks. I was wondering about that.

314 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:13:24am
315 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:13:32am

re: #301 MandyManners
Haven't seen.
Hillary's hairdo was looking good, though. She must have borrowed Michelle's traveling entourage.

316 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:14:34am

re: #312 Sharmuta

Maybe he pulled a Rev Wright vs. Obama defence..?
20 years but never heared a thing ...

317 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:14:41am

re: #185 MandyManners

I had not seen that. Last I read, this was getting worse over a six month period. But even if it was a 2 year period, the man was nearly 40 (I may be off on this, so feel free to correct) and a Muslim his whole life and a career officer his whole adult life. What suddenly happened to him?

More importantly, this is not the issue at hand. The issue is the ABC article and the lack of any supporting information for such serious allegations. They did not have enough for a story and a story this explosive and so ripe for use by our very own extremists should be approached more responsibly.

That is the point I am making. There is no "there" there for me. I am not saying it is total bullshit. I have no idea. But I find the reporting troublesome because it appears to be speculation rather than fact.

As I noted above, if it pans out, then we have a whole lot of serious national security problems to deal with ASAP. But if it does not pan out, then how do we put out the fire inspired in our own crazies, which is being fed aggressively right now?

Anyway, thanks for providing the link to his classmates' concerns.

318 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:14:41am

re: #313 Noam Sayin'

But now that I'm asking the question, I should ask the question I intended.

I actually meant to ask if Hasan treated soldiers.

319 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:14:52am

re: #145 Thanos

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

Can a Sunni kill a Shia?

320 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:15:11am

re: #311 NJDhockeyfan

Duane : I'm not going to condemn him for what he did.

Another moderate muslim speaks out.///

321 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:16:05am

re: #311 NJDhockeyfan

My cardiologist has kindly asked me not to watch that video.

322 caliphibian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:16:22am

re: #183 Sharmuta

I have been holding off in concluding that religion played a role in this attack, but as the week has gone on, more and more information about hasan's religious views leaning towards fundamentalism have come to light, and I can't continue to exclude religious motivations. I'm not sure if you've been following all of LGF's posts about this issue, but I recommend this post. This has been going on for much longer than the past 6 months.

re: #183 Sharmuta

re: #183 Sharmuta

I'm glad to see we are getting closer to agreement. I was intuitively using a version of the "80/20 Rule" ie. It takes 20% of the time to collect 80% of the information to make a decision, and 80% of the time to collect the remaining 20%.

323 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:17:24am

re: #293 lawhawk

President Bush has already made a low profile visit to Fort Hood to meet privately with the survivors and relatives from their ranch in nearby Crawford.

"Nearby" and "privately" being key here. And by the way, Bush is no longer president, so not everything he does turns into a photo op.

And yesterday people were jumping all over Obama for not immediately scrambling Air Force One and flying down to the scene of the crime.

Does anyone figure maybe that would have disrupted all hell out of the investigation?

And wouldn't the exact same people who now lambaste Obama for not having been there yet have screamed "opportunism" at the top of their voices if he had done what they pretend they think he should have?

Reeking hypocrisy.

324 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:17:25am

re: #317 Larisa

I had not seen that. Last I read, this was getting worse over a six month period. But even if it was a 2 year period, the man was nearly 40 (I may be off on this, so feel free to correct) and a Muslim his whole life and a career officer his whole adult life. What suddenly happened to him?

More importantly, this is not the issue at hand. The issue is the ABC article and the lack of any supporting information for such serious allegations. They did not have enough for a story and a story this explosive and so ripe for use by our very own extremists should be approached more responsibly.

That is the point I am making. There is no "there" there for me. I am not saying it is total bullshit. I have no idea. But I find the reporting troublesome because it appears to be speculation rather than fact.

As I noted above, if it pans out, then we have a whole lot of serious national security problems to deal with ASAP. But if it does not pan out, then how do we put out the fire inspired in our own crazies, which is being fed aggressively right now?

Anyway, thanks for providing the link to his classmates' concerns.

This was not "sudden". And, it didn't happen in the past six months. What did happen in the past six months is that he was under investigation.

Look, there are links galore out there to his history. Please, read a few.

325 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:17:31am

Here is a repost of a comment from earlier today on the overnight thread containing the full text of the Anwar al Awlaki blog in all its Islamofascist ugliness:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

*rebarf*
*respit*

326 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:17:44am

re: #322 caliphibian

I dinged you down and the reason why is because I told you last week I was not ruling out religious motivations but was waiting for more information. You can cram your "I'm part of the problem" attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

327 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:18:08am

re: #300 NJDhockeyfan

A former President doesn't have quite the entourage as a sitting President so it would be easier for Bush to visit than Obama; logistics of bringing President Obama to Fort Hood are more difficult than getting Bush there from Crawford. Much easier for Bush to visit.

President Obama will be at Fort Hood tomorrow for a memorial service.

The grieving process at Fort Hood over gunfire that claimed 13 lives will include a formal memorial service with President Barack Obama.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone on Monday announced a "traditional" memorial service will begin at 1 p.m. CST Tuesday. The post commander says the program will include prayers, speakers, Bible verses, a sermon, music, a roll call of names of the dead, plus a 21-gun salute.

328 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:18:30am

Well Hasan sure wasn't basing his actions on chapters 5,6 & 7 of Matthew.

A certain religion needs to find its reformer & whoever it is will have an eraser.

329 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #189 Thanos

Really slowed to a crawl here, referrers shows influx from Memeorandum

They have a list of links up, we are first on it.

330 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:19:02am

re: #312 Sharmuta

years ago? like 2?

the concerns appear to only have been recent. he does not seem to have worried anyone before this time - at least we don't have that yet. until we do, then I have to keep asking, what set him off?

a guy in Orlando just shot up his former place of employment - from 2 years ago. he was fired 2 years ago, but only went nuts now? why? something set him off. i think we need to know what sets these people off in order to better prevent it in the future.

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:19:03am

re: #322 caliphibian

You really wanted to respond to Sharmuta's 183 there, didn'tcha?

The 80/20 rule is very true.

I'll bet that a number very close to 80/20 works out for the percentage of lizards that make up for 80% of the comments.

% of dings, etc...

332 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:19:03am

re: #319 ralphieboy

Just like Christianity there are sects in Islam. Some of the extremes are the ones who say you can't kill other members of the Ummah, however the same sects identify the others sects as Takfiri or not true muslims. So yes, some sects think it's ok to kill Shia, Ahmadiya, Kharjirites, etc.

333 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:19:37am

re: #330 Larisa

Are you going to listen to that NPR report or what?

334 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:19:59am

re: #332 Thanos

So yes, some sects think it's ok to kill Shia, Ahmadiya, Kharjirites, etc.

How advanced and delightful for 2009.

335 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:20:28am

re: #145 Thanos

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

Thing is that the Conscientious Objector status is something you insist on before you join.

Hasan did not object to being educated, housed and fed by people he grew to resent.

I know you aren't defending Hasan but this guy was an utter cretin and scumbag worthy of no respect prior to shooting fellow service members.

336 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:20:52am

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

Nailed it.

337 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:21am

re: #324 MandyManners

Was he not being deployed and fighting it?

So the theory you have is that he was under investigation for terrorist activities and when the feds were closing in, he decided to carry out his plan?

Just trying to understand your position, not implying anything. I am new here, so I have no idea what anyone thinks about anything.

338 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:25am

re: #333 Sharmuta

Are you going to listen to that NPR report or what?

It's easier to bash Malkin.

339 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:32am

Crap...gotta go to work. I wish I could stay and watch the Berlin wall ceremony.

Later lizards.

340 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #333 Sharmuta

Are you going to comment on the ABC article?

341 Abdul Abulbul Amir  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:55am

Is it time to pump to conclusions yet?

342 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:21:57am

re: #145 Thanos

We do have a "consciencious objector" category created mostly for Quakers and other religious objectors, you could speculate on whether Muslims who don't want to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq should be given the exemption. Maybe coulda stopped this, who knows? Not I.

Even in the case of Quakers, this isn't a simple blanket exemption. Each individual must make the claim on their own - and they are required to back it up with evidence, such as testimonials from pastors, family members and friends who will verify not just membership in the church in question, but also a longtime history of clearly enunciating such beliefs. Published articles, transcripts of public speeches and other such documents shoring up the claimants position also bear a lot of weight.

Those able to produce such evidence are generally granted consciencious objector status in a fairly perfunctory manner, given the rarity of such cases. There is, however, no overall exemption from service based on stated religion alone.

Unless you declare yourself gay. That's an automatic out. But I think you lose your bennies that way.

343 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:22:46am

re: #332 Thanos

Just like Christianity there are sects in Islam. Some of the extremes are the ones who say you can't kill other members of the Ummah, however the same sects identify the others sects as Takfiri or not true muslims. So yes, some sects think it's ok to kill Shia, Ahmadiya, Kharjirites, etc.

Yesterday we had an especially long sermon in church on stewardship and assisting our neighbors.

Then we broke down into groups to discuss banning science and taking over the schools and government. ///

344 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:22:48am

re: #341 Abdul Abulbul Amir

Is it time to pump to conclusions yet?

My pump is broken.

345 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:22:49am

re: #323 Cato the Elder

Cato, really?? You hope they don't do a sweep?
I wasn't being sarcastic.

346 Thor-Zone  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:01am

re: #278 lawhawk

One step ahead of you as I posted on that this morning.

I should have known...

347 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:02am

re: #210 MandyManners

I posted a link to the story this weekend but I don't recall that. However, perhaps you've read a more recent account.

That said, look at how the world reacts if Saudis kill civilians v. how it reacts if we do it by accident.

This is the flip side of 'Hama rules'. The second Hama rule states that if an Arab leader kills everyone in a largish city as part of an internal power struggle, the world hardly blinks. Compare to the ongoing condemnation of Israel over their marginal role in Sabra/Shatila.

348 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:07am

re: #337 Larisa

Was he not being deployed and fighting it?

So the theory you have is that he was under investigation for terrorist activities and when the feds were closing in, he decided to carry out his plan?

Just trying to understand your position, not implying anything. I am new here, so I have no idea what anyone thinks about anything.

It's not my "theory". It's what's been reported by the MFM and confirmed by the authorities. And, what I think doesn't matter. There are many links here to stories. Dig around.

349 avanti  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:34am

re: #277 tradewind

Oh, HRC is taking up that slack. Talking now about the walls that keep people down.
Really, I'm surprised that Obama didn't take advantage of the opportunity to spin a speech about the walls built by Obama.
Wait/// he sent a video.

Do you have link to that, this is the closest I found.

"I congratulate the chancellor, not only on the very well deserved occasion here, but on the work that she and her government are doing here. It is an honor to be representing the United States."

At the U.S. Embassy next to the Brandenburg Gate, Clinton told embassy staffers, "It is such a great personal privilege to be joined with the German people and people throughout Europe and the world to celebrate this occasion."

"Now, we have to turn our attention to the challenges of the 21st century," she said. "A wall, a physical wall, may have come down but there are other walls that exist that we have to overcome and we will be working together to accomplish that."

350 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:35am

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote

I recall (growing up in the States) that radicals who called for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government would be subject to investigation, arrest, etc. Yet, CNN showed these people shouting for the overthrow of the Constitution and the government of the United States (have it replaced with Sharia law), and yet, the police said they can do nothing (?)...(I don't get it. Personally, I also think that radical, extremist preachers -- if one of their congregants goes out on "jihad" and murders someone -- if a link can be established, I believe that preacher should be subject to criminal charges as an accomplice, since he incited the person.)

351 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:42am

re: #322 caliphibian

It's not an all or nothing proposition. It seems as if religion probably played some role. But it also seems probable that that was only one factor, or rather that his own psychosis lead to his attraction to a psychotic ideology. There was no martyr video. And would a pure Islamacist ideologist give his possessions away to his (Christian) neighbor and suggest that his items be donated to the Salvation Army (as reported in the NYTimes)? That sounds more like a death-by-cop suicide than a clear-headed Islamacist foot soldier.

352 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:23:54am

re: #323 Cato the Elder

"Nearby" and "privately" being key here. And by the way, Bush is no longer president, so not everything he does turns into a photo op.

And yesterday people were jumping all over Obama for not immediately scrambling Air Force One and flying down to the scene of the crime.

Does anyone figure maybe that would have disrupted all hell out of the investigation?

And wouldn't the exact same people who now lambaste Obama for not having been there yet have screamed "opportunism" at the top of their voices if he had done what they pretend they think he should have?

Reeking hypocrisy.

Well I do recall people screaming at GWB for not scrambling fast enough to show sympathy for Katrina victims. And that meme lasted up until last November, IIRC.

353 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist

This is the flip side of 'Hama rules'. The second Hama rule states that if an Arab leader kills everyone in a largish city as part of an internal power struggle, the world hardly blinks. Compare to the ongoing condemnation of Israel over their marginal role in Sabra/Shatila.

The Religion of Hypocrisy.

354 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:24:14am

re: #337 Larisa
His actions certainly fit the pattern of someone who realized that his game was over, and it was time to put his money where his mouth was.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #214 Mad Al-Jaffee

I knew that. I was just kidding about it being Count Chocula. If it was up to me, I would rather have Count Blah, from Greg The Bunny.

That would be Count A'ight. Please try to keep up!

356 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:24:34am

re: #298 Larisa

[snip]

But I still don't see how ABC managed to conclude that the two were communicating.

[snip

They never concluded what you state. Did you read the articel. It says "Investigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia..."

They want to know IF.

357 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:24:40am

I heard a few minutes of some Pacifica Radio talk show a few days ago and they were talking about the shootings. One was saying that if South Africa had a war during apartheid and we were sending help, Black US soldiers would be justified in not going. He feels that it's the same thing for Muslim solders with Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think he was justifiying the shooter, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

358 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:25:24am

re: #340 Larisa

Are you going to comment on the ABC article?

Maybe after you listen to the NPR report.

359 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:25:27am

Thanks to all the folks clarifiying Concientious Objectors and the rules around it for me, I wasn't certain how that worked.

360 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:25:51am

re: #337 Larisa

Was he not being deployed and fighting it?

So the theory you have is that he was under investigation for terrorist activities and when the feds were closing in, he decided to carry out his plan?

Just trying to understand your position, not implying anything. I am new here, so I have no idea what anyone thinks about anything.

And, just because there is an investigation does not mean that he's being tailed 24/7.

361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:26:08am

re: #319 ralphieboy

Hey! There you are!? Where'd you go this morning? You just went "poof!".

362 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:26:39am

re: #357 Mad Al-Jaffee

I heard a few minutes of some Pacifica Radio talk show a few days ago and they were talking about the shootings. One was saying that if South Africa had a war during apartheid and we were sending help, Black US soldiers would be justified in not going. He feels that it's the same thing for Muslim solders with Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think he was justifiying the shooter, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

Pacifica Radio is novocain for one's critical thinking facilities.

363 caliphibian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #326 Sharmuta

re: #326 Sharmuta

I dinged you down and the reason why is because I told you last week I was not ruling out religious motivations but was waiting for more information. You can cram your "I'm part of the problem" attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

Just curious. Are you still waiting for more information?

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #268 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't matter, it is the religion, the foundational text informs, it has the rules, just because the majority of followers have reasonably decided to ignore the more radical aspects of the texts, does not change those texts, does it? It's the religion.

One could very easily say the same thing about Baptists and the Bible, but once again, very few of them interpret like that.

365 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:27:48am

re: #357 Mad Al-Jaffee

They justify all kinds of evil on Pacifica if you ask me.

The history of that organization begins with a person who thought we shouldn't fight Hitler.

Later he committed suicide.

It is a pretty bogus outfit I think.

366 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:28:05am

re: #355 SanFranciscoZionist

That would be Count A'ight. Please try to keep up!

Drumsticks can also be chicken!

367 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:28:20am

re: #363 caliphibian

Your the kid that hangs out at the zoo with a long sharp stick aren't ya?

368 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:28:46am

OT - The left seems to be envious of those who supported the Hoffman debacle and are now going for their own ideological purge.

Good plan! It has worked wonders on the right!

369 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:29:18am

re: #305 karmic_inquisitor

I have been a long time advocate of the US liberating those around the world from their oppressors but it now seems that we can't even pay our own bills.

"Now?"

We did not "do" Iraq on a pay-as-you-go basis. It was all on credit, which the Chinese hold. And we're still paying for that one, a trillion or so and counting on loan, and we'll be there for the foreseeable future, no matter how much we repeat the "drawdown" mantra. Let's not even talk about Afghanistan.

I'm an advocate of letting people liberate themselves and helping them once they've done so. Whether the Iraq adventure turns out to have been worth the candle remains to be seen. And at a trillion bucks a pop just to start the process, I don't think dictator-toppling and nation-building is something we can afford anymore.

370 tradewind  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:29:36am

Oh, great. Now I'm designated ' go batten down the joint' for my folks ' place on the gulf... no problem, just an eight hour drive if they cancel the flights.///
Ya'll play nice, and hope Ida fizzles. I gotta go plead other stuff and try to get out of it.

371 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:05am

re: #363 caliphibian

re: #326 Sharmuta

Just curious. Are you still waiting for more information?

I'm pretty sure everyone is waiting for more information, regardless of whether they think this was religiously motivated or not. There's a lot we don't know yet, so of course I'm waiting for more information.

As to what it is I know you're really trying to get me to say- I'm not going to answer you because of your previously outrageous comment to me that I'm part of the problem.

372 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:21am

re: #370 tradewind

Be safe!!!

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:25am

re: #319 ralphieboy

Can a Sunni kill a Shia?

"The son of God may not lie with a woman."

"Does that mean that he CAN not, or that he SHOULD not?"

"What's the difference?"

"A lot."

374 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:26am

re: #365 Ojoe

They justify all kinds of evil on Pacifica if you ask me.

The history of that organization begins with a person who thought we shouldn't fight Hitler.

Later he committed suicide.

It is a pretty bogus outfit I think.

I know. They also air messages Mumia. I occasionally listen to the local station for some of their music (jazz and blues shows) and to get an idea of what the moonbats are saying and thinking.

375 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:43am

re: #195 tradewind

Yes, I am not saying it did not play a role. In fact, I said - if you scroll up - it did play a roll. I am taking issue with the ABC article and the lack of information with such explosive allegations.

Beyond that, what everyone he knew is suddenly saying to the media is not what I am interested in. I want to see what investigators find out. Until then, I am simply saying that we not feed our own extremists who will likely go out and carry out their form of justice. Journalists have a responsibility to report facts. In a situation like this, when journalists are presenting half-assed reporting to already psychotic haters, it creates more problems and likely more violence. That is my whole point.

For all we know, the guy was actually a double agent for the Saudis or ISI. But that is just speculation and such speculation becomes dangerous when the crazies of our own are already going nutty and blaming all of Islam, all Muslims, and somehow - and strangely - Obama and Chavez for this. I am sure they can do six digress of separation and include gays too if they have enough time between news bytes.;)

376 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:45am

re: #370 tradewind

Oh, great. Now I'm designated ' go batten down the joint' for my folks ' place on the gulf... no problem, just an eight hour drive if they cancel the flights.///
Ya'll play nice, and hope Ida fizzles. I gotta go plead other stuff and try to get out of it.


Take a jacket and umbrella just in case
/

377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #369 Cato the Elder

We gonna have to start taking a cut, dammit.

378 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:30:51am

re: #361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey! There you are!? Where'd you go this morning? You just went "poof!".


I'm on Old European Central Standard Time, it's 8:30 pm here. I am just settling in after working.

379 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:31:30am

re: #343 CommonCents

best thing i have read all day buddy

380 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:31:33am

re: #361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey! There you are!? Where'd you go this morning? You just went "poof!".

If I recall, several of us were waiting for ralphieboy to tell us what we needed to look further for and what we needed to learn.

381 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #370 tradewind

Oh, great. Now I'm designated ' go batten down the joint' for my folks ' place on the gulf... no problem, just an eight hour drive if they cancel the flights.///
Ya'll play nice, and hope Ida fizzles. I gotta go plead other stuff and try to get out of it.

Stay safe.

382 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:32:40am

re: #353 MandyManners

The Religion of Hypocrisy.

Well, the second Hama rule transcends religion, and is eagerly embraced by many, many, non-Muslims.

383 Randall Gross  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:33:02am

re: #343 CommonCents

Here's a short wiki article on Neo Takfirism as expoused by AQ. It's something they had to do to condone suicide bombing and killing of other muslims. Meanwhile Bin Laden's mentor has declared him and Zawahiri Takfir, and therefor ok to kill under the more extreme flavors of Salafism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

384 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:33:51am

re: #375 Larisa

Journalists have a responsibility to report facts. In a situation like this, when journalists are presenting half-assed reporting to already psychotic haters, it creates more problems and likely more violence.

It's a FACT that this is being investigated.

385 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:33:57am
386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:34:55am

re: #370 tradewind

Oh, great. Now I'm designated ' go batten down the joint' for my folks ' place on the gulf... no problem, just an eight hour drive if they cancel the flights.///
Ya'll play nice, and hope Ida fizzles. I gotta go plead other stuff and try to get out of it.

Fitting nic there...

387 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:35:34am

re: #364 SanFranciscoZionist

One could very easily say the same thing about Baptists and the Bible, but once again, very few of them interpret like that.

Really, what Christian texts can Baptists interpret that would bring them to the similar conclusions as Hasan evidently came to?

388 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fitting nic there...


Funny...below the belt, but funny non the less!LOL

389 Neo_  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:35:49am

Maybe if Janet Napolitano hadn't been spending so much time scrutinizing "tea-bag people" she could have connected the dots on the worst domestic terrorism since 9/11.

390 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:36:17am

re: #369 Cato the Elder

"Now?"

We did not "do" Iraq on a pay-as-you-go basis. It was all on credit, which the Chinese hold. And we're still paying for that one, a trillion or so and counting on loan, and we'll be there for the foreseeable future, no matter how much we repeat the "drawdown" mantra. Let's not even talk about Afghanistan.

I'm an advocate of letting people liberate themselves and helping them once they've done so. Whether the Iraq adventure turns out to have been worth the candle remains to be seen. And at a trillion bucks a pop just to start the process, I don't think dictator-toppling and nation-building is something we can afford anymore.

Here is a graph CATO

Image: File:USDebt.png

Debt as a percentage of GDP.

I have unloaded on Bush's spending many times here so you can peruse the archives. That said, we are now entering a zone that simply was not contemplated since WW2. And it is for social programs - not the military.

Reagan broke the backs of the Democrats through defense spending - he spent so much that they could not appropriate funds for their pet projects.

Pelosi has turned the tables and is making military spending look like a luxury item. That is what is underway. That doesn't make me happy in the least, but it is a reality i have to accept. A reality imposed on my by the will of the citizens of this country who outvoted my side in the last election.

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:36:50am

re: #385 Sunlight

This type of outside-of-the-US contact info would be the exact type of stuff I would imagine the Patriot Act would deal with. "Progressives" hate the Patriot Act. I've heard "progressives" say that a sacrifice of lives (not theirs, always someone else's) is sometimes required to allow freedom of speech. So if Obama's folks have reinstated the barriers to info among agencies, then why smear the Army for not having the full picture of this guy? I'm wondering, for example, what schools he went to growing up in No. VA. Is he too old to have been affected by the No. VA Saudi influence that LGF has covered so well in the past?

Also, if our president and his posse despise the US military, what better way to get rid of that pesky achievement in recruitment numbers than to have a huge room full of disarmed troops with a what? not a jihadi? ok then how about an insurgent. Let's call him that. Running wild around our biggest Army post. Parents of these young people have got to be frosted by this.

Are you seriously accusing 'the president and his posse' of having collaborated in the murder of U.S. troops on U.S. soil? Because if you read your second paragraph, that's exactly how it reads to me.

392 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:37:49am

re: #389 Neo_

Maybe if Janet Napolitano hadn't been spending so much time scrutinizing "tea-bag people" she could have connected the dots on the worst domestic terrorism since 9/11.

The whole "teabager" thing is an intended effort to dehumanize opposition.

Turns out Progressives are no more capable of living up to their high minded standards as SoCons are.

Big surprise.

393 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #387 Walter L. Newton

Really, what Christian texts can Baptists interpret that would bring them to the similar conclusions as Hasan evidently came to?

Are we about to play the 'Greek vs Hebrew' scriptures again?

394 caliphibian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:38:16am

re: #371 Sharmuta

I'm pretty sure everyone is waiting for more information, regardless of whether they think this was religiously motivated or not. There's a lot we don't know yet, so of course I'm waiting for more information.

As to what it is I know you're really trying to get me to say- I'm not going to answer you because of your previously outrageous comment to me that I'm part of the problem.

re: #371 Sharmuta

Fine. To each his/her own.

395 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:38:26am

re: #385 Sunlight

[snip]

Also, if our president and his posse despise the US military, what better way to get rid of that pesky achievement in recruitment numbers than to have a huge room full of disarmed troops with a what? not a jihadi? ok then how about an insurgent. Let's call him that. Running wild around our biggest Army post. Parents of these young people have got to be frosted by this.

Would you like to supply the proof of this, or will you admit that you pulled this out of your ass?

396 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #393 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we about to play the 'Greek vs Hebrew' scriptures again?

Let's save it for a slow night, ok?

397 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:39:26am

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

Let's save it for a slow night, ok?

Sounds good.

398 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oooh. Sorry. Didn't notice the 8 hour drive there.

399 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:39:46am

re: #397 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds good.

I won! :)

400 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #172 larisa

Yes, Anwar al Awlaki is a lunatic extremist. But there is no proof that the two communicated or even knew each other.

I agree with Walter. I think you have misread the article. No where does it allege the men were in contact, it says investigators are looking into that.

401 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:40:11am

I know I'm late to the table, but I had just this one thing to say...

Hasan is an evil muslim terrorist who deserves whatever punishment he gets.

I hope that's not too politically correct. I tried to be careful about the wording.

402 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:40:16am

re: #394 caliphibian

Aww- you're not going to smear my character again?

403 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:40:19am

Just to add a thought I had on a previous dead thread:

Whenever a question arises about whether Obama or whoever is the current occupant of the Oval Office should go to this or that function in memory of the Berlin Wall, or take this or that stand on Iranian elections, or make this or that gesture toward this or that cause, the words "leader of the free world" inevitably come up.

I would like to argue that that title is laughable to anyone outside America.

Me, I wonder when Americans will realize that they alone automatically consider their president to be anything other than their president. How many people in the "free world" (however you define that nebulous entity) consider the person who happens to occupy the White House at any given time to be their "leader"? In my decade on the Continent, as they used to call it, I can't remember hearing very many Europeans use the title "leader of the free world" to describe any president I ever voted for or against, including Reagan. Do you actually think the "free world" saw the incompetent Dubya Dumbass as its leader?

I originally wrote this to "John in London", with this conclusion: "I understand you're an American living in London. May I suggest that you take an informal street poll? Go out and ask the first 100 people you meet whether or not they think there exists a position called 'leader of the free world'. I'm betting you'll get lots of Cockney laughs and blank stares, if not hoots of derision."

404 Irish Rose  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:40:35am

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

Are you seriously accusing 'the president and his posse' of having collaborated in the murder of U.S. troops on U.S. soil? Because if you read your second paragraph, that's exactly how it reads to me.

It reads that way to me, too.

405 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:40:49am

re: #400 Sharmuta

I agree with Walter. I think you have misread the article. No where does it allege the men were in contact, it says investigators are looking into that.

I don't think larisa bothered to respond to my observation. Reading is comprehension...

406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:41:09am

re: #404 Irish Rose

hey Rose! How you been?

407 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:41:58am

Collapse Feared for Palestinian Authority if Abbas Resigns


RAMALLAH, West Bank — The prospect that the Palestinian Authority, the government in the West Bank, might fall apart loomed on Monday, as those close to its president, Mahmoud Abbas, said that he intended to resign and forecast that others would follow.

“I think he is realizing that he came all this way with the peace process in order to create a Palestinian state, but he sees no state coming,” Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian peace negotiator, said in an interview. “So he really doesn’t think there is a need to be president or to have an Authority. This is not about who is going to replace him. This is about our leaving our posts. You think anybody will stay after he leaves?”

408 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:42:30am

re: #380 reine.de.tout

If I recall, several of us were waiting for ralphieboy to tell us what we needed to look further for and what we needed to learn.


I am honored that my absence does not go unnoticed...

So the theme that seems to be getting kicked about is that lotsa people were aware that this guy was a nutcase but did not officially complain out of person political correctitude or fear of PC reprisal.

The theme being kicked about is that a lot of folks recognized this guy was a radical nutbag but were hestiant to complain out of person correctitude or fear of PC reprisal.

So perhaps we will come to see that we cannot afford treat Islam with kid gloves. But when it comes to changing our attitude, does this mean we will learn the distinction between removing the kid gloves and putting on brass knuckles?

409 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:43:09am

re: #407 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Collapse Feared for Palestinian Authority if Abbas Resigns

So, who will fill the void? Hamas?

410 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:44:21am

re: #407 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Collapse Feared for Palestinian Authority if Abbas Resigns

Bye bye. As they say, "don't let the door..."

411 drogheda  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:44:30am

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

Are you seriously accusing 'the president and his posse' of having collaborated in the murder of U.S. troops on U.S. soil? Because if you read your second paragraph, that's exactly how it reads to me.

Yeah I read it that way as well. Sounds sort of like what some folks were saying about how W knew about 9-11 before hand and did nothing to stop it.

412 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:45:56am

re: #409 MandyManners

So, who will fill the void? Hamas?

More than likely.

413 Gus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:46:14am

re: #385 Sunlight

What are you? A Fort Hood Troofer? Shouldn't you be posting this over at Prison Planet?

414 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:47:49am

re: #407 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Collapse Feared for Palestinian Authority if Abbas Resigns

“I think he is realizing that he came all this way with the peace process in order to create a Palestinian state, but he sees no state coming,” Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian peace negotiator, said in an interview. “So he really doesn’t think there is a need to be president or to have an Authority. This is not about who is going to replace him. This is about our leaving our posts. You think anybody will stay after he leaves?”

Really? No state coming? What gave him that idea?

Cry. Me. A. River.

I can't see any downside here.

415 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:48:25am

re: #408 ralphieboy

Thank you, ralphieboy, for the response.

416 Irish Rose  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:48:32am

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

hey Rose! How you been?

Feeling better, thanks.
But very busy with school and family life.

417 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:48:34am

re: #403 Cato the Elder

I for one would love it if Americans stopped acting so codependent towards Europe.

That is what the whole "leader of the free world" thing is about. As is "we must work with our allies" - if an ally wants to do the opposite of what you want to do (like Belgium voting against invoking Article 5 after 9/11) why call them an ally?

Europe has many here in the US (both on the left and the right) wanting European approval. In getting us to want that, they manage to get us to pay for their defense and do trade under structurally unfair terms. They castigate us when our foreign policy does not work in their interests and then reward us when we behave (as with Nobel Prizes).

Our approval seeking from Europe who we have a persistent trade deficit with (even though they have higher production and labor costs and a bloated welfare state) is a national mental illness.

We should be more keen on maintaining our Asian alliances than European ones.

418 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:48:54am

Palestinians consider abandoning peace process


Just days after Mahmoud Abbas, the moderate president of the Palestinian Authority, announced his intention to quit, his colleagues gave warning that they were prepared to deploy the much feared "nuclear option".

Officials in the West Bank told The Daily Telegraph that the most important Palestinian decision making bodies were preparing to meet to discuss a proposal to dissolve the Palestinian Authority itself.

Such a move would signal the end of limited self-government in the Palestinian territories set out by the now defunct Oslo Accords of 1993 and as such end all hopes of a resolution to the conflict with Israel.

Even so, some Palestinian officials signalled they were prepared to discuss the long-feared "nuclear option" in response to what they described as Israeli intransigence and American betrayal.

But at least one Palestinian official suggested that the debate was mainly designed to escalate pressure on the United States after Hillary Clinton, the secretary of state, appeared to signal growing support for Israel within the Obama administration.

"We in the movement back dissolving the PA," said Tayseer Nasrallah, a member of the Palestinian National Council, the legislative body of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO).

"We would use this as pressure on the United States to commit itself to the peace process." Mr Abbas, a moderate voice of conciliation and America's closest Palestinian ally, announced his decision not to stand in elections scheduled for January shortly after Mrs Clinton praised an Israeli offer to limit the construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

419 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:48:55am

re: #383 Thanos

A Takfiri (from the Arabic word تكفيري) is a Muslim who practices Takfir, which is to accuse other Muslims of apostasy.

So Bin Laden's mentor has called him a Takfiri for calling others Takfiri enabling him to be killed as he uses the same claim to kill others? That makes complete sense. I call Bin Laden's mentor a Takfiri for teaching such blasphemy! (Can I do that if I'm in the 3rd party Takfiri?, or am I in the 1st?)

420 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:49:52am

re: #414 Cato the Elder

Really? No state coming? What gave him that idea?

Cry. Me. A. River.

I can't see any downside here.

If the Israelis are allowed to deal with the fallout as they need to and not have their hands tied by the UN and EU, I fully agree.

421 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #407 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Collapse Feared for Palestinian Authority if Abbas Resigns

And how do we know a collapse hasn't already happened?

422 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:10am

re: #409 MandyManners

Nonsense. Abbas goes by the boards as PA President, he's still the head of Fatah. The fiction of the Palestinian Authority goes away.

The Palestinian civil war, leaving Hamas in charge of Gaza and Fatah with civil administrative control over most of the West Bank will continue. Until either of those groups moderate or are eliminated, that's the facts on the ground that the US would deal with. Imposing a peace from above will not make peace; it sets up the conditions for the next war.

And the best way to deal with it would be for the US to say to the Palestinians get back to us when you're serious about peace - enough with the incitement to violence, jihad, and all the other crap you pull in public pronouncements to the Palestinian people.

423 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:24am

re: #418 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Palestinians consider abandoning peace process

Just remember - they are the victims in all this.

/

424 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:51am

re: #412 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

More than likely.

Oy.

425 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:59am

re: #403 Cato the Elder


I would like to argue that that title is laughable to anyone outside America.

Not sure. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Poles, say, might disagree.

Presumably, so might the idiot Guardian readers who wrote to Ohio voters, begging them to vote for Kerry.

(Note, I voted for Kerry. I characterize the Guardian readers as such because they decided to enter a letter-writing campaign meant to stick their noses into a free election in someone else's country.)

426 caliphibian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:50:59am

re: #402 Sharmuta

Aww- you're not going to smear my character again?

re: #402 Sharmuta

It appears that you can't handle any kind of criticism, constructive or not. And what does "character" have to do with our differences. My disagreement with you has to do with your decision making process.

427 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #421 Alouette

And how do we know a collapse hasn't already happened?

People not getting thrown off roof tops in the West Bank yet.

428 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:51:26am

re: #417 karmic_inquisitor

I for one would love it if Americans stopped acting so codependent towards Europe.

That is what the whole "leader of the free world" thing is about. As is "we must work with our allies" - if an ally wants to do the opposite of what you want to do (like Belgium voting against invoking Article 5 after 9/11) why call them an ally?

Europe has many here in the US (both on the left and the right) wanting European approval. In getting us to want that, they manage to get us to pay for their defense and do trade under structurally unfair terms. They castigate us when our foreign policy does not work in their interests and then reward us when we behave (as with Nobel Prizes).

Our approval seeking from Europe who we have a persistent trade deficit with (even though they have higher production and labor costs and a bloated welfare state) is a national mental illness.

We should be more keen on maintaining our Asian alliances than European ones.

Personally, I'm for letting the Europeans start paying for their own defense or defence or fences and then seeing what happens to their social programs. I'm just that evil.

429 J.S.  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:51:37am

re: #408 ralphieboy

I don't know if the Hasan case can be boiled down to "political correctness" run amok...again, have to wait and see. Maybe there are other factors yet to be revealed which would explain the gross incompetence of instructors. However, I do think (and this has nothing to do with "Islamic extremism" or "Muslims") if you are attending a graduate course on environmental health, and you are required to give a presentation and you go totally off topic (say you start yakking about the Evil Commies in China, etc.) then, that should warrant a Grade of F -- that means FAILURE. You fail. Period. No graduation, no certificate, no advanced degree. It should be fairly obvious. You flunk the course.

430 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:51:49am

Let's total up the billions (trillions?) spent on extra security/defense/military readiness since 9/11. Next let's attempt to sum to intangible costs-air travel, internet/email warrant less data mining, Guantanamo etc. We stop several sophisticated and several lame attempts to attack us.

But we miss this guy under our noses?

431 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #403 Cato the Elder

I know as Canadian several people, including myself who see some merit in the term. Mostly due to NATO, NORAD and our previous nuclear weapon sharing agreement, which placed the weapons under a dual-key scheme. In that sense, whoever is the American President plays a very real leadership role in the defence of Canada.

432 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:52:01am

re: #172 larisa

I think everyone should read the article carefully. It provides no supporting information and is vague beyond crazy.

Yes, Anwar al Awlaki is a lunatic extremist. But there is no proof that the two communicated or even knew each other. I do think that religious extremism helped push an already unhinged man over the edge. But remember, the man was a Muslim his whole life and a career officer his whole adult life. The extremism seems to have come into play only in the last six months. So what set him off? I think it is far too easy to blame religious extremism as the motive. But in this case, it seems to be simply fuel for an already very hot and burning fire. My concern is why an American soldier lost it to this extent and killed his fellow soldiers. What set him off in the last 6 months?

And yes, the military and the FBI would appear to have dropped the ball on this big time.

But the article simply fails to provide the story. They have an allegation, but no story and no facts to support what they are claiming.

I totally agree with the need to avoid generalizing. However, at this point, going by Hasan's own statements it's hard to deny that one motivation for the rampage was his belief that he was striking at an enemy of the ummah -- the US armed forces.

In that at least, his motivation and rationale is the same as any jihadi's. His primary loyalty is to other Muslims, not to the US, and in his mind he was retaliating for the killing of Muslims. That's the logic behind his actions.

But there's no confirmation that he ever got in touch with real-world terror groups.

If you look at it tactically, the reality is there's no difference between what Hasan did and what any deranged mass killer does -- and that's why people like him are impossible to stop. Anyone who gets to that point of derangement is capable of doing the same thing, regardless of motivation.

If it does turn out that Hasan was actually part of a militant Islamic plot, that would change things drastically. It would mean the problem is potentially much larger.

433 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:52:03am

So I am wondering if anyone has called Hasan "part of the diaspora" yet.

434 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:52:39am

re: #421 Alouette

It's about Abbas trying another effort to wring concessions from the US and Israelis to stick around a while longer. Abbas doesn' t have much leverage left in dealing with either, and this is a last desperate gasp.

He failed to advance the peace process. Now, the end is in sight, thanks to Palestinian leaders who refuse to do anything that concedes Israel's existence and a 2-state solution.

435 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:52:43am

re: #428 Cato the Elder

Personally, I'm for letting the Europeans start paying for their own defense or defence or fences and then seeing what happens to their social programs. I'm just that evil.

Whoa now! Accountability was never part of the Marshall Plan.
/

436 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:52:50am

re: #389 Neo_

I doubt it. May I refer to both hands and a flashlight analogy?

437 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #428 Cato the Elder

Personally, I'm for letting the Europeans start paying for their own defense or defence or fences and then seeing what happens to their social programs. I'm just that evil.

No kidding, boy, Palin and Carthage, a real bug up your butt, huh? :)

438 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:53:16am

re: #426 caliphibian

re: #402 Sharmuta

It appears that you can't handle any kind of criticism, constructive or not. And what does "character" have to do with our differences. My disagreement with you has to do with your decision making process.

Yeah- how dare I follow the evidence as it comes in instead of leaping to conclusions like you. What a really crappy decision on my part. ///

439 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:54:15am

re: #418 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Palestinians consider abandoning peace process

Didn't they abandon it over 60 years ago?

440 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:54:51am

re: #438 Sharmuta

Yeah- how dare I follow the evidence as it comes in instead of leaping to conclusions like you. What a really crappy decision on my part. ///

Touche'

441 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:55:06am

re: #438 Sharmuta

Yeah- how dare I follow the evidence as it comes in instead of leaping to conclusions like you. What a really crappy decision on my part. ///

You just sit there in your Ivory Tower of facts and logic and reasoning, Sharmuta. You can't handle just feeling the TRUTH!

///

442 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:55:26am

re: #411 drogheda

Yeah I read it that way as well. Sounds sort of like what some folks were saying about how W knew about 9-11 before hand and did nothing to stop it.

Entirely inappropriate in either case.

443 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:56:26am

re: #429 J.S.

I don't know if the Hasan case can be boiled down to "political correctness" run amok...again, have to wait and see. Maybe there are other factors yet to be revealed which would explain the gross incompetence of instructors. However, I do think (and this has nothing to do with "Islamic extremism" or "Muslims") if you are attending a graduate course on environmental health, and you are required to give a presentation and you go totally off topic (say you start yakking about the Evil Commies in China, etc.) then, that should warrant a Grade of F -- that means FAILURE. You fail. Period. No graduation, no certificate, no advanced degree. It should be fairly obvious. You flunk the course.

Well, that is another major topic that I hope we don't drown out in the PC debate: how overloaded is the millitary in dealing with the stress levels that must be pretty high in its ranks?

I would hate to think that this fellow was overlooked because he was nothing out of the ordinary...

444 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:56:53am

re: #439 Mad Al-Jaffee

Didn't they abandon it over 60 years ago?

About every 10 years or so, they think they can fight again.

445 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:59:14am

re: #405 Walter L. Newton

I don't think larisa bothered to respond to my observation. Reading is comprehension...

I think Larisa still has eggshell stuck to her. If she's like me, she is
having a lot of trouble managing thread comments. I blew off a
lot of commenters until I learned "Spy" and gave up following multiple
threads.

446 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #441 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You just sit there in your Ivory Tower of facts and logic and reasoning, Sharmuta. You can't handle just feeling the TRUTH!

///

LGF has been a terrible influence on me. ///

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:59:58am

re: #423 karmic_inquisitor

Just remember - they are the victims in all this.

/

There was a Catholic Palestinian family who had a corner store in the neighborhood I grew up in. Their kids were around my age, and we played together a lot.

The dad once told my father that when he decided to emigrate, he looked at the map of the whole Middle East, looking for a safe place for his family, and decided on San Francisco.

448 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:00:45pm

re: #427 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People not getting thrown off roof tops in the West Bank yet.

That we're aware of.

449 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:01:50pm

re: #445 Decatur Deb

I think Larisa still has eggshell stuck to her. If she's like me, she is
having a lot of trouble managing thread comments. I blew off a
lot of commenters until I learned "Spy" and gave up following multiple
threads.

Baptism by fire. I hope we didn't scare Larisa away? But she did hit a lot of different points in a few postings and that tends to attract flies from all 4 points of the compass, and yes, it's hard to keep up with all the responses.

It's good practice to stick with a point until it plays out, even if there are a lot of different observations going on at the same time.

450 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:01:59pm

re: #433 karmic_inquisitor

So I am wondering if anyone has called Hasan "part of the diaspora" yet.

Huh? Does that phrase mean anything here?

451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:02:46pm

re: #408 ralphieboy

Thanks for your response. I was getting a "teachable moment" vibe off of that post.

I'm running out of patience for "teachable moments".

Cool.

452 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:02:48pm

re: #448 SanFranciscoZionist

That we're aware of.

Hamas is being sneaky about it this time. They're passing out leaflets offering 1 free flying lesson to any member of the PA and waiting to see who shows up.

453 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:03:37pm

re: #418 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Palestinians consider abandoning peace process

Just yesterday Tom Friedman (whom I generally despise) accidentally farted out a column that I couldn't fail to agree with. He says we, the U.S. ought to abandon the ridiculous "peace process", and I'm right there with him. Whose mouth doesn't curl up in a sardonic smile when those two meaningless words are repeated for the millionth time?

Friedman says we should walk away and leave the various parties our number, 1-800-AMERICA, for if and when they ever get serious. Having the Secretary of State regularly fly over there to pose with the poseurs only makes them feel important.

Bravo!

454 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #452 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hamas is being sneaky about it this time. They're passing out leaflets offering 1 free flying lesson to any member of the PA and waiting to see who shows up.

Fun times down the road.

455 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:05:32pm

re: #451 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks for your response. I was getting a "teachable moment" vibe off of that post.

I'm running out of patience for "teachable moments".

Cool.


I only do Teachable Moments with my kids, that is quite enough.

I am worried that America are going to come out of this debacle without having learned anything, only with seeing people having their preconceived notions confirmed on all sides of the issue.

456 The Curmudgeon  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:06:19pm

re: #453 Cato the Elder

Just yesterday Tom Friedman (whom I generally despise) accidentally farted out a column that I couldn't fail to agree with. He says we, the U.S. ought to abandon the ridiculous "peace process", and I'm right there with him. Whose mouth doesn't curl up in a sardonic smile when those two meaningless words are repeated for the millionth time?

The "peace process" is little more than a career niche in the State Department.

457 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:06:33pm

re: #455 ralphieboy

I only do Teachable Moments with my kids, that is quite enough.

I am worried that America are going to come out of this debacle without having learned anything, only with seeing people having their preconceived notions confirmed on all sides of the issue.

My preconceived notion is that PC sucks.

458 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:06:54pm

And now for something heartwarming and totally unrelated.

459 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #456 The Curmudgeon

The "peace process" is little more than a career niche in the State Department.

Wow- truer words...

460 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:07:42pm

re: #453 Cato the Elder

(snip)

Friedman says we should walk away and leave the various parties our number, 1-800-AMERICA, for if and when they ever get serious. Having the Secretary of State regularly fly over there to pose with the poseurs only makes them feel important.

Bravo!

When I rotated back from Israel I brought a six-pack of Taybeh beer to
celebrate the coming of a just peace. (It looked that good in 1998.)
Dumped the beer last Summer.

461 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:08:45pm

re: #460 Decatur Deb

When I rotated back from Israel I brought a six-pack of Taybeh beer to
celebrate the coming of a just peace. (It looked that good in 1998.)
Dumped the beer last Summer.

Skunked, by then, that's for sure!

462 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:10:13pm

re: #455 ralphieboy

I only do Teachable Moments with my kids, that is quite enough.

I am worried that America are going to come out of this debacle without having learned anything, only with seeing people having their preconceived notions confirmed on all sides of the issue.

I'm worried that radical Islam is going to come out of this debacle learning that hey can strike us from with in, any time they want, and we are afraid to even call it for what it is. Terrorism informed by the Koran to certain members of Islam.

463 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:11:45pm

re: #462 Walter L. Newton

I'm worried that radical Islam is going to come out of this debacle learning that hey can strike us from with in, any time they want, and we are afraid to even call it for what it is. Terrorism informed by the Koran to certain members of Islam.

They're certainly going to be taking notes. Time to amp up our game.

464 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:12:24pm

re: #450 SanFranciscoZionist

Huh? Does that phrase mean anything here?

I often find the term "diaspora" to be applied in sympathetic articles on the Palestinians and "the right of return". It has become a code word of sorts that I look for in articles from time to time.

Edward Said was big on using it. And it is used a lot in the UK press.

Here, btw, is a recent article that Judith Miller co-wrote that uses the term in the title to draw attention to something that Michael Totten has observed several times - how Arab neighbors tend to screw over Palestinians while publicly trumpeting their cause.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

A bit of semantic Jujitsu there, IMO.

465 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:12:28pm

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

466 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:12:56pm

re: #427 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

People not getting thrown off roof tops in the West Bank yet.

That's only because they're still "occupied" by the eeville IDF which prevents that kind of stuff from happening.

467 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:13:18pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

If you ever figure out how to read the hearts, intents, and thoughts of somebody please let us know.

468 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:14:02pm

re: #464 karmic_inquisitor

I often find the term "diaspora" to be applied in sympathetic articles on the Palestinians and "the right of return". It has become a code word of sorts that I look for in articles from time to time.

Edward Said was big on using it. And it is used a lot in the UK press.

Here, btw, is a recent article that Judith Miller co-wrote that uses the term in the title to draw attention to something that Michael Totten has observed several times - how Arab neighbors tend to screw over Palestinians while publicly trumpeting their cause.

[Link: www.independent.co.uk...]

A bit of semantic Jujitsu there, IMO.

Ah. Gotcha.

469 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:14:13pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

Ask him, jerk.

470 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:14:41pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

Use the same algorithm you use to distinguish murderous Quackers
from the "nice" ones.

471 kmg  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:14:43pm

The didn't miss the warning signs, they just ignored them because they are infected with the disease known as political correctness!

472 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:14:47pm

When it comes to actual human rights, the United Nations Human Rights Council reflexively discharges obfuscation, like a squid and its ink. That notwithstanding, the Council's fraudulence was made perfectly clear last week, when a routine hearing on "the Occupied Palestinian Territory" was disrupted by candor. - Wall Street Journal 20 March 2009.

Banned-UN-Watch-Speech

473 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:15:14pm

Quakers.

Big PIMF.

474 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:15:38pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

I'm going to assume a sarc tag there, and tell you that I think 'ex-brother-in-law' is probably a more dangerous category than 'average Muslim'.

475 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #469 Walter L. Newton

Because they never lie, do they.. Why didn't I think of that. Putz. And stop wishing my children dead, please.

476 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:17:17pm

re: #465 gander

WTF?!

Look- there is a muslim owned business down the street from me. They employ other muslims. NONE of those men have any issues dealing with me as a customer, and in fact they've been charitable with me. At times when I've forgotten my wallet, they've allowed me to leave with product knowing I'd be back to pay for it and I have.

They did have one employee who did not like dealing with women customers. He would be suspect to me, as not dealing with women in public would be a sign of fundamentalism. The shop owner no longer employs him.

477 Stanghazi  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:17:48pm

OT - Scott Roeder confesses to killing, plans to use "necessity defense"

478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:18:11pm

re: #474 SanFranciscoZionist

I have known four Anglo women who married Muslims. All survived, but, none are still married to the guys. All were abusive marriages.

Purely anecdotal from my perspective... but true.

479 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:18:36pm

re: #477 Stanley Sea

OT - Scott Roeder confesses to killing, plans to use "necessity defense"

horseshit

480 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:18:48pm

re: #475 gander

You think your ex-brother-in-law is going to kill your children?

481 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

We'll get beck to you when the left comes up with their fool proof Christo-Fascist detector, since Christian Radicals have such an exhaustive track record of killing folks en masse when they feel oppressed.

482 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:19:23pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

In all that time he was your brother-in-law, and all the time he was with your sister, you never had a conversation with him? I'm not talking about one that starts out with you saying "Hey,,, are you a Jihadist". I don't have any relatives who are muslims by blood or marriage, but I have a whole slew of friends that are. I talk to them oftem about EVERYTHING (wow ,,, just like I do with my "normal" (// dripping) freinds.
Guess what. They have the same fears, problems and concerns that I do (taxes, their kids, OUR country). They also take joy in the same things I do (their kids, OUR country)

483 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:20:46pm

re: #474 SanFranciscoZionist
(Convert)
He divorced his 4th wife: a Quaker to marry a Muslim woman from an internaitonal match-making website.

484 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:20:48pm

Was gander posting a serious concern? OMG.

485 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:21:47pm

re: #475 gander

Because they never lie, do they.. Why didn't I think of that. Putz. And stop wishing my children dead, please.

Good, you have your answer. Glad I could help.

486 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:22:22pm

re: #465 gander

re: #482 sattv4u2

DAMN ,,, I'm getting a feeling I should have used REPLY instead of QUOTE to #465

Gander ,, soem free advice
When you're in a hole ,,, STOP DIGGIN'

487 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:22:52pm

I don't think ex-brother-in-law is going to endanger my kids! My posts are half-sarc.

488 Mike DeGuzman  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:22:57pm

Just wondering how long will this investigation last? Even after they finish their investigation, Maj Hasan will go through medical and psychological tests to determine his fitness for court-martial. Then he'll go through a UCMJ Article 82 hearing (equivalent to a grand jury). This will surely take years before it's final conclusion and years on death row pending his numerous appeals. This is a bad as the health care plan going through congress!

489 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:23:03pm

re: #481 karmic_inquisitor

We'll get beck to you when the left comes up with their fool proof Christo-Fascist detector, since Christian Radicals have such an exhaustive track record of killing folks en masse when they feel oppressed.

Actually,

[Link: www.ccel.org...]

490 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:23:48pm

re: #487 gander

I don't think ex-brother-in-law is going to endanger my kids! My posts are half-sarc.

Well , you being half assed explains that!

491 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #483 gander

(Convert)
He divorced his 4th wife: a Quaker to marry a Muslim woman from an internaitonal match-making website.

Then why did you bring up Unitarians? Was his ex-wife a Quaker or a Unitarian? Real big difference.

492 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:24:43pm

re: #490 sattv4u2

Well , you being half assed explains that!

No fucking fair, I was just going to say that.

493 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:24:48pm

re: #475 gander

Because they never lie, do they.. Why didn't I think of that. Putz. And stop wishing my children dead, please.

Uhhh, compare the number of "lying Muslims waiting to attack a military base" and the number of everyday Muslims and given the statistical insignificance of the comparison I'd be inclined to say yes, they never lie.

494 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #491 Walter L. Newton

Then why did you bring up Unitarians? Was his ex-wife a Quaker or a Unitarian? Real big difference.

Quaker, Unitarian,,, a cross is a cross,, c'mon!
/

495 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:26:30pm

re: #487 gander

I don't think ex-brother-in-law is going to endanger my kids! My posts are half-sarc.

So- is this post half-sarc too?, because it looks like you're trying to use the sarcasm defense to mask some bigoted opinions, frankly.

496 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:26:40pm

re: #491 Walter L. Newton

Mother: Unitarian.
Sister 1: Kinda Unitarian.
Sister 2 Gay Unitarian
Wife 1: Pentacostal?
Wife 2: Maronite Catholic?
Wife 3: Quaker
Wife 4: Muslim

497 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:26:46pm

If Gander is posting a serious question then Islamic zealots are like most zealots - filled with zeal.

Irrepressible zeal.

They tell you that you are hell bound. That is part of the gig.

So when they attend strip clubs prior to their mass killings (as did some of the 9/11 attackers) they tend to tell the fellow patrons about what fate awaits their sin (something they do between shots and lap dances).

Hasan, BTW, was a really good tipper.

498 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:27:17pm

re: #494 sattv4u2

Quaker, Unitarian,,, a cross is a cross,, c'mon!
/

No, you have that all wrong. Mort Sahl once said... you know ho you get a Unitarian family out of your neighborhood?

You burn a question mark on their front lawn.

Yocka... yocka...

499 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:27:36pm
500 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:29:14pm

re: #496 gander

Heres some more free advice

Wait until theres a topic that you're comfortable with and have some knowledge about before posting

((I have left the punch line open for anyone!!!)

501 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:29:28pm

May I propose an alternate explanation of what happened - of why Hasan wasn't busted before he did this?

Assume for a moment you're part of the FBI's counter-terrorism movement, and you've heard teasers (as well as hold the fear and suspicion) that there are AQ supporters in the military. You get solid connection that this shrink major in DC is one of them. Now if you're a peon you bust him and go back to hoping you can find more threads. But if you're thinking, you think, "What if we can use him to find some more? What if we can make him a stalking horse?"

The first thing you do is consider whether he's likely to be a bomber or a planner. If a bomber he's not going to be worth much, but if he's a planner or informer he's reasonably safe (basically). So you look: high education, fairly stable, in a position that's good for feeding intel to AQ (shattered people are susceptible to persuasion, doncha know). Yeah, this guy's not likely to be a suicide bomber.

So to break existing threads you get him transferred a long way from his current DC posting - Texas is good. You keep fingers on him to see who he contacts, and who his feeds in DC send him to see. You don't tell every Tom, Dick and Harry for the same reason you don't tell them of any OTHER intel ops in progress; tell too many people and the target learns he's a target.

And then something happens, and you haven't got a clue what it was. Suddenly this major goes on a murder spree. Now it's dissection time - what did you miss? You need to know and know yesterday because you've got at least one, maybe a dozen MORE pieces of troll bait running around and you'd really rather they didn't turn into bombs as well. But you missed it and now your troll bait has killed a dozen of the people you were trying to help. And everyone is jumping you because you not only missed it, you can't tell them what you were doing because of the OTHER intel ops in progress.

Is that the way it is? Dunno - I'm not there. Is it possible? Yeah. Just something to keep in mind.

502 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:29:40pm

re: #495 Sharmuta

I am not bigoted against people. I don't believe that all Belief Systems are equal. Hell, maybe mine is wrong, but it doesn't command that I should kill disbelievers. Just sayin'.

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:29:49pm

re: #493 bosforus

Uhhh, compare the number of "lying Muslims waiting to attack a military base" and the number of everyday Muslims and given the statistical insignificance of the comparison I'd be inclined to say yes, they never lie.

But, and this is the big one, all of the ones waiting to attack a military base PROBABLY LIE, at least when asked "Are you waiting to attack a military base?" So they say "No, I'm not planning to attack a military base." The problem is, all the regular Muslims who aren't planning to attack military bases probably also say that. In fact, they probbaly say stuff like "Hell no, I'm not planning to attack a military base!"

And people who aren't serial killers say they aren't serial killers, but I bet serial killers also say they aren't serial killers, 'cause they don't want to get arrested! WHY IS THIS SO COMPLICATED? WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN???

///

504 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:30:53pm

re: #502 gander

I am not bigoted against people. I don't believe that all Belief Systems are equal. Hell, maybe mine is wrong, but it doesn't command that I should kill disbelievers. Just sayin'.

I have a suggestion...

GAZE

505 Bob Dillon  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:31:10pm

re: #488 Mike DeGuzman

I don't think he will be made a martyr via a death sentence. Multiple life sentences with solitary to protect him from others who would surely terminate his existence.

In my mind - as it should be.

506 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:31:17pm

re: #489 Decatur Deb

Actually,

[Link: www.ccel.org...]

Hey - I am not claiming that Christianity is beyond killing for God. Plenty of history of that. But modern instances are fewer than those killing for Allah. That doesn't make one zealot harmless and the other not, but the left seems obsessed with creating an absolute equivalence in terms of public safety threat which isn't supportable, IMO.

507 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:31:22pm

re: #496 gander

Mother: Unitarian.
Sister 1: Kinda Unitarian.
Sister 2 Gay Unitarian
Wife 1: Pentacostal?
Wife 2: Maronite Catholic?
Wife 3: Quaker
Wife 4: Muslim


do you have several Sharpie markers next to your computer with the caps off of them??? and perhaps your in a small room with poor ventilation??? just wondering...

508 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:31:26pm

re: #502 gander

Is that half-sarc too?

509 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:31:27pm

re: #499 Mad Al-Jaffee

Supreme court denies request to stay D.C. sniper's execution

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

510 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:32:22pm

re: #475 gander

And stop wishing my children dead, please.

Should he do that before or after he stops beating his dog?

511 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:33:03pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

I read nothing into that at all. A perfectly mainstream decision, much as one would expect form one of her wisdom and experience.
//

512 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:33:56pm

re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist

So I ask you, SFZ, are you a serial killer?

513 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:34:17pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Color me surprised. /

514 gander  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:34:30pm

re: #504 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I don't know what that one means. But I am going to get back to work.
Peace be with you.

515 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist

WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN???

The Shadow knows.

516 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:35:07pm

re: #512 bosforus

So I ask you, SFZ, are you a serial killer?

517 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:35:50pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

Joined by Ginsburg, whose previous associations with an organization known for opposition to the death penalty were known but evidently irrelevant at the debutante ball that passed for her confirmation hearing.

518 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:36:02pm

re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist

Silence. That's what I thought.

519 Bob Dillon  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:36:09pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

We are surprised?

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:36:15pm

re: #512 bosforus

So I ask you, SFZ, are you a serial killer?

((SFZ, completely confused by the existential problems posed by answering that question, keels over.))

521 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:36:43pm

re: #512 bosforus

So I ask you, SFZ, are you a serial killer?

Why yes, yes I am!
I've been known to knock of a box of Corn Flakes in my day,

522 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:36:58pm

re: #506 karmic_inquisitor

Hey - I am not claiming that Christianity is beyond killing for God. Plenty of history of that. But modern instances are fewer than those killing for Allah. That doesn't make one zealot harmless and the other not, but the left seems obsessed with creating an absolute equivalence in terms of public safety threat which isn't supportable, IMO.

Yeah, we have been kind of mellow since Vatican II. As recently as 1960,
I heard a professor describe the Inquisition as based in a greater love.

523 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #521 sattv4u2

Why yes, yes I am!
I've been known to knock of a box of Corn Flakes in my day,

Enough of your trix.
-let it begin-

524 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:37:37pm

re: #522 Decatur Deb

Yeah, we have been kind of mellow since Vatican II. As recently as 1960,
I heard a professor describe the Inquisition as based in a greater love.

Holy shit!

525 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:37:57pm

re: #512 bosforus

So I ask you, SFZ, are you a serial killer?

Those dirty USB devices deserve whats coming to them, the filthy sluts!

526 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #523 bosforus

Enough of your trix.
-let it begin-

I got Nuttin, Honey

527 badger1970  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #523 bosforus

Just don't bran anyone as one.

528 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:39:12pm

re: #526 sattv4u2

I got Nuttin, Honey

Fiber One do not want to have anything to do with this conversation anymore.
/stretch

529 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:40:04pm

re: #528 bosforus

Well then- Cheerio!

530 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:40:11pm

re: #527 badger1970

Just don't bran anyone as one.

I'm Totally against that kind of pablum.

531 Kragar  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:41:18pm

re: #530 Decatur Deb

I'm Totally against that kind of pablum.

I'm in it for the Kix.

532 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:41:26pm

re: #524 karmic_inquisitor

Holy shit!


Now Exodus 22:18 does tell us that we should not suffer a witch to live, but the point is that most belief systems are a combination of cultural and social framework as well a way that people turn to in order to try and lead a better life.

533 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:41:43pm

re: #531 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm in it for the Kix.

I'm in it for the Chex, which are in the mail.

534 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:41:46pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

she's so nice...(just wait for an illegal immigration vote)

535 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:41:56pm

re: #530 Decatur Deb

I'm Totally against that kind of pablum.

If this ain't a food pun thread, grits ain't groceries, eggs ain't poultry and Mona Lisa was a man.

536 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:42:36pm

re: #524 karmic_inquisitor

Holy shit!

"I'll roast your transitory nuts for a few minutes to gain your eternal joy",
or words to that effect.

537 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:43:02pm

re: #533 Sharmuta

I'm in it for the Chex, which are in the mail.

people are flaky

538 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:43:34pm

Totally

539 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:43:44pm

re: #522 Decatur Deb

Yeah, we have been kind of mellow since Vatican II. As recently as 1960,
I heard a professor describe the Inquisition as based in a greater love.

Old news, we know Christian killed for their religion. Goody, now, how does that change, modify, reflect, help, hinder, bespeak of, inform or deny what Hasan did and the fact that he was motivated by the radical teachings of his religion?

540 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:44:32pm

Muesli, puns start much sooner than this.

541 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:44:44pm

re: #537 albusteve

people are flaky

I might have to waffle on posting in this thread.

542 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:45:19pm

...Count Chocula...
No pun. Just a good cereal.

543 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:45:34pm

re: #541 Mad Al-Jaffee

I might have to waffle on posting in this thread.

the whole thread is gonna pan cake, I can tell

544 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:46:02pm

re: #542 bosforus

...Count Chocula...
No pun. Just a good cereal.

And today is his 40th birthday! :)

545 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:46:33pm

re: #542 bosforus

...Count Chocula...
No pun. Just a good cereal.


for dentists

546 Mike DeGuzman  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:46:40pm

Virus threat to troops in Afghanistan

[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au...]

TROOPS in Afghanistan face a new scourge after an American soldier died from a dreadful Ebola-like virus called Crimean-Congo hemorrhagic fever.

The tick-borne illness causes an agonising death as it transforms internal organs into soup and triggers uncontrollable bleeding.

Sgt Robert Gordon, 22, died in September after he was bitten on the foot by a tick at a base west of Kandahar.

The virus is transmitted by infected blood.

Australian soldiers work at forward operating bases across Oruzgan Province, northwest of Kandahar. Australian chopper crews service US bases throughout southern Afghanistan.

The disease was first reported in the Crimea in 1944, then in the Congo in 1956, according to the World Health Organisation. An outbreak was reported eight years ago in Quetta, the capital of Pakistan's Baluchistan province, which borders Afghanistan.

The Australian Defence Force says it is aware of the risk from the deadly disease and is monitoring the spread of the tick.

Troops deploying to Afghanistan were warned about tick-borne diseases, uniforms were chemically treated, the use of insect repellant was mandatory and soldiers were taught how to examine their body for ticks, a spokesman said.

US forces have flown in 150,000 doses of swine flu vaccine following an outbreak of the deadly disease in the capital, Kabul. More than 10 people have died from the flu.

547 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #545 sattv4u2

for dentists

in bed

548 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:47:35pm

re: #544 Mad Al-Jaffee

And today is his 40th birthday! :)

Methinks you have your Counts confused.

549 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:47:44pm

re: #539 Walter L. Newton

It's the currency of the thought that alarms, and the fact that this came
from a sincere and likeable person.

550 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:48:42pm

re: #539 Walter L. Newton

Old news, we know Christian killed for their religion. Goody, now, how does that change, modify, reflect, help, hinder, bespeak of, inform or deny what Hasan did and the fact that he was motivated by the radical teachings of his religion?

In rhetoric of argument, that's called "presumptive close" and an "implied generality".

551 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:48:51pm

re: #542 bosforus

...Count Chocula...
No pun. Just a good cereal.

I eat Wheaties...stand aside

552 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #551 albusteve

I eat Wheaties...stand aside

I prefer Little Chocolate Donuts, the donuts of champions.

553 shai_au  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:50:06pm

I don't think there was anything "PC" about not wanting to make conclusions about this guy's motives before all the facts were in. Now that they do seem to be coming in, we can start getting a clearer picture.

There's no reason to feel embarrassed.

554 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:50:41pm

re: #544 Mad Al-Jaffee

And today is his 40th birthday! :)

Count Chocula?

Frankenberry?

555 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:50:59pm

re: #552 Mad Al-Jaffee

I prefer Little Chocolate Donuts, the donuts of champions.

you're probably 5 ft 2 and 120lbs...
and eleven

556 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:51:09pm

re: #552 Mad Al-Jaffee

I prefer Little Chocolate Donuts, the donuts of champions.

John Belushi ding.

557 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:51:11pm

re: #554 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Count Chocula?

Frankenberry?

Fruit Brute!

558 bosforus  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:51:44pm

re: #551 albusteve

I eat Wheaties...stand aside

So are Wheaties-ing about Count Chocula now?

559 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #550 gregb

In rhetoric of argument, that's called "presumptive close" and an "implied generality".

The "Fox's Martyrs" and "Inquisition" comments were part of an aside spun
off from the terrorist discussion.

560 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #553 shai_au

I don't think there was anything "PC" about not wanting to make conclusions about this guy's motives before all the facts were in. Now that they do seem to be coming in, we can start getting a clearer picture.

There's no reason to feel embarrassed.

I'm sure not...and I was right...anybody else guess that good?

561 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:52:21pm

re: #348 MandyManners

I do not believe that this has been confirmed by authorities at all. Can you give me the link to that please? If I am wrong, I apologize. But I have not see anything confirming this theory whatsoever.

562 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:52:24pm

re: #553 shai_au

I don't think there was anything "PC" about not wanting to make conclusions about this guy's motives before all the facts were in. Now that they do seem to be coming in, we can start getting a clearer picture.

There's no reason to feel embarrassed.

Waytamissthepoint

The "PC" question comes up BEFORE the act, as in

Even though Hasan had a troubled history in the military, were superiors worried about if they would look Islamaphobic by disciplining him

563 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:52:54pm

re: #532 ralphieboy

Now Exodus 22:18 does tell us that we should not suffer a witch to live, but the point is that most belief systems are a combination of cultural and social framework as well a way that people turn to in order to try and lead a better life.

Politically I am an aculturalist - I agree with Richard Rorty when he declared that "culture is designed to simultaneously include and exclude"(rough quote). I have no interest in government refereeing culture. I am a conscientious objector to the culture wars - both sides. The left has no business in promoting cultural identity and awareness via multi-cultural policies and the right has no business preserving some cultural values that were never universally held in the first place.

Every culture excludes "the other" or it isn't a culture. Government should never fund exclusion.

All that said, the government does have a important role in preserving cultural records in an archeological sense as long as those records/artifacts are presented without a willful endorsement or condemnation of that culture.

564 albusteve  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #558 bosforus

So are Wheaties-ing about Count Chocula now?

chocolate cereal is beneath me...my body is a temple

565 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #449 Walter L. Newton

No no, not at all. I had a dog emergency. She vomited all over my sofa and there was no time to stop and post BRB as I had to tend to her. Back now, however, (waving).

566 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:53:48pm

re: #550 gregb

In rhetoric of argument, that's called "presumptive close" and an "implied generality".

And Tu quoque.

I know that, that was my point. It's a logically fallacious argument.

567 simoom  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:54:40pm

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Sotomayor voted for a stay.

re: #517 Guanxi88

Joined by Ginsburg, whose previous associations with an organization known for opposition to the death penalty were known but evidently irrelevant at the debutante ball that passed for her confirmation hearing.


I don't think this is correct.

Here's the SCOTUSBlog writeup on the ruling:
[Link: www.scotusblog.com...]

Three Justices filed a separate statement saying the case “highlights once again the perversity of executing inmates before their appeals process has been fully concluded.” Justices John Paul Stevens wrote the statement, joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor. The statement, however, pointedly added that those Justices did not dissent from the Court’s refusal to hear Muhammad’s legal claims.

From the PDF of the actual order:
[Link: www.scotusblog.com...]

The application for stay of execution of sentence of death presented to THE CHIEF JUSTICE and by him referred to the Court is denied. The petition for a writ of certiorari is denied.
Statement of JUSTICE STEVENS, with whom JUSTICE GINSBURG and JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR join, respecting the denial of the petition for writ of certiorari.
...
I continue to believe that the Court would be wise to adopt a practice of staying all executions scheduled inadvance of the completion of our review of a capital defendant’s first application for a federal writ of habeas corpus.
...
Having reviewed petitioner’s claims, I do not dissent from the Court’s decision to deny certiorari. “I do, how-ever, remain firmly convinced that no State should be allowed to foreshorten this Court’s orderly review of . . . first-time habeas petition[s] by executing prisoners before that review can be completed.” Emmett, 552 U. S., at 943.
568 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:54:52pm

re: #1 filetandrelease

Surprise, surprise, surprise

Literally. All good, open-minded people who think all cultures are equal good and all religions are equally snicker-worthy are honor-bound to be positively gobsmacked by this. Because there was just no way for anyone except "haters" to see this coming, now was there?

/rolling eyes emoticon

569 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #449 Walter L. Newton

wait, what is spy? yes, i have no idea how to use this comment system. i am entirely confused + the dog situation.

570 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:56:10pm

re: #566 Walter L. Newton

And Tu quoque.

I know that, that was my point. It's a logically fallacious argument.

I don't think it was part of the argument you're attaching it to.

571 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:57:45pm

re: #549 Decatur Deb

It's the currency of the thought that alarms, and the fact that this came
from a sincere and likeable person.

And also, an insight into process. Vatican 2 wrought some amazing changes in the Catholic world and its thought processes.

572 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #567 simoom

While seeming like a very moral stance (allowing every filed motion to be exhausted), were you to allow anything filed to stay an execution then executions would never occur. Any inmate on death row could simply file every day until dead.

573 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:59:28pm

re: #565 Larisa

No no, not at all. I had a dog emergency. She vomited all over my sofa and there was no time to stop and post BRB as I had to tend to her. Back now, however, (waving).

Aww. Welcome back to the fray! (What kind of dog?)

574 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 12:59:40pm

re: #570 Decatur Deb

I don't think it was part of the argument you're attaching it to.


Tracked the split back to K-Inquisitor's 481.

575 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:00:10pm

re: #8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't know where to draw the line between Islamaphobia and rational thought.

But, I'm thinking we got screwed by PC here.

It's not a phobia when they really are plotting to kill you.

576 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:01:12pm

re: #569 Larisa

wait, what is spy? yes, i have no idea how to use this comment system. i am entirely confused + the dog situation.

You'll get the hang. LGF Master Spy is up below where you're logged in. It will open a window that makes it easier to track where the action is taking place on the site.

577 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:02:21pm

At least this violence-promoting religious leader is no longer spewing his filth in America.

It is nice not have him breathing our air, but thanks to the internet, he's "here" in all but flesh.

578 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:02:55pm

re: #571 SanFranciscoZionist

And also, an insight into process. Vatican 2 wrought some amazing changes in the Catholic world and its thought processes.

Don't get me started on Vatican II. Finally understood Latin "sequence of tenses", and J-XXIII said "Never mind".

579 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:04:21pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

You'll get the hang. LGF Master Spy is up below where you're logged in. It will open a window that makes it easier to track where the action is taking place on the site.

But, you have to re-enter the thread screen to respond.

580 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:05:49pm

re: #579 Decatur Deb

hmmm... so it only shows you where people are commenting, not if they are responding to you as in a thread format?

581 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:07:15pm

re: #403 Cato the Elder

[...] How many people in the "free world" (however you define that nebulous entity) consider the person who happens to occupy the White House at any given time to be their "leader"? [...]

Whenever they want something from us...?

582 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:08:18pm

re: #432 Charles

If you look at it tactically, the reality is there's no difference between what Hasan did and what any deranged mass killer does -- and that's why people like him are impossible to stop.

I have only one problem with your excellent analysis.
If Hasan was not part of a plot and was self-motivated by his deranged Islamofascist views, it seems to me that it does not necessarily follow that people like that are categorically impossible to stop. It might be more accurate to say that the price in individual freedom and liberty to stop them would currently be unacceptably high.
However if such treasonous terror events were to be repeated with sufficient frequency, how long would it be before freedom of religion and freedom of speech were increasingly restricted in an attempt to identify and interdict those who held such traitorous views? Fascist techniques like religious profiling and intrusive government scrutiny of religious practices and electronic or other forms of communication immediately spring to mind.
We can only hope that such lone wolf attacks will never become frequent enough to trigger such draconian reactions.

583 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:08:27pm

re: #563 karmic_inquisitor

Politically I am an aculturalist - I agree with Richard Rorty when he declared that "culture is designed to simultaneously include and exclude"(rough quote). I have no interest in government refereeing culture. I am a conscientious objector to the culture wars - both sides. The left has no business in promoting cultural identity and awareness via multi-cultural policies and the right has no business preserving some cultural values that were never universally held in the first place.

Every culture excludes "the other" or it isn't a culture. Government should never fund exclusion.

All that said, the government does have a important role in preserving cultural records in an archeological sense as long as those records/artifacts are presented without a willful endorsement or condemnation of that culture.


A cultural framework. Most people are born into a religion, even when they reach adulthood and make a conscious choice of which religion to follow (or not to follow one at all) it is shaped by the religion with which they grew up.

Having grown up in America of European descent and now living in Europe, my world view is shaped by my Christian upbringing even if I am not a practising Christian.

We need to keep this thought in mind when we take on the issue of Islam.

584 Stanghazi  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:10:04pm

Discussion this weekend on how the Dow would react to the House healthcare bill passage. It closed up 200. Just an FYI!!

585 simoom  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:11:19pm

re: #572 karmic_inquisitor

Maybe I should have been more direct. Stevens, Ginsburg and Sotomayer did not vote for the stay as has been suggested. They supported the refusal to hear Muhammad’s case. Instead, what they seemed to have done is included an additional statement with the ruling about experiencing some discomfort with execution dates that rush/shorten the appeals process.

586 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:11:25pm

re: #573 SanFranciscoZionist

Yorkie > puppy > she is [thissmall]:) If I could figure out how to upload a photo here, I would demonstrate just how tiny this adorable creature is.

587 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #583 ralphieboy

A cultural framework. Most people are born into a religion, even when they reach adulthood and make a conscious choice of which religion to follow (or not to follow one at all) it is shaped by the religion with which they grew up.

Having grown up in America of European descent and now living in Europe, my world view is shaped by my Christian upbringing even if I am not a practising Christian.

We need to keep this thought in mind when we take on the issue of Islam.

I don't disagree. I posted on another thread that swimming against the tide can be tough - look at the shit Charles has taken for his apostacy.

588 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:11:46pm

re: #580 Larisa

hmmm... so it only shows you where people are commenting, not if they are responding to you as in a thread format?

I'm fairly new myself, but I can hit the thread name from "Spy"to get into a thread that has active buttons. Could vary by browser, etc. I gave up
early, on trying to follow more than one thread. Even within threads,
"filaments" occur.

589 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:13:56pm

re: #586 Larisa

Yorkie > puppy > she is [thissmall]:) If I could figure out how to upload a photo here, I would demonstrate just how tiny this adorable creature is.

Post it on Flickr & give us the link!

590 Larisa  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:15:22pm

Okay, must tend to dog ... be back later. Sorry for running off like this. Very nice to have met you folks. I really enjoyed our conversation.

591 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #465 gander

Can anyone explain to me how I am to tell which Muslims are regular people and which Muslims want to kill me and my family? It ain't just one or two of 'em. This is getting serious. My ex-brother-in-law is a Muslim. I hope to God he is the regular-guy kind an not the "Death to the Unitarians!" kind. God help us.

Maybe you could ask one of your victims the next time you go queer stomping.

/ Dripping.

592 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 1:16:52pm

re: #587 karmic_inquisitor

I don't disagree. I posted on another thread that swimming against the tide can be tough - look at the shit Charles has taken for his apostacy.


And there are a lot of "cultural Moslems" who don't take their scriptures literally or teribly seriously but identify with their upbringing and society.

There are the religious Moslems who take it more serioulsly, but do not preach or practise violence against non-believers.

Then we get those who preach violence, and incite it, and finally, those who practise it.

We have to learn how to distinguish between these categories and to learn when to act before the latter categories take down more victims.

593 ryannon  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 2:12:45pm

re: #196 Mad Al-Jaffee

It would be nice for google to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall on their home page today. Instead they have Count Chocula.

Too busy to change it.

594 gregb  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 2:21:54pm

re: #566 Walter L. Newton

Upding for perfect use the term.

One of my all time favorite categorical listings of online debates...we make an art out of identifying rhetorical techniques.

[Link: taint.org...]

595 funky chicken  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 3:20:51pm

re: #311 NJDhockeyfan

Here is one of his friends from the local mosque in an interview with the BBC.

Video:

[Video]

Let 'em talk. Please put them on prime time as often as possible. People still don't get it, which is shocking.

596 EE  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 3:28:06pm

This is the most deadly terrorist massacre since 9/11/2001. Any one of the many signs about Hasan's being a radical jihadist should have alarmed even a fool, and yet nothing was done to avert this massacre. And it occurred at a place that should have been the safest in the world -- a US base.

The problem is that at the highest level -- and I mean the highest -- there is the dogma that poverty, and only poverty, produces terrorism. The actual cause of radical jihad terrorism -- the poisonous ideology -- is denied at the highest level, and there is a morbid fear of people that they will be punished if they act with common sense regarding the ideological cause of radical jihad terrorism.

If we remain in a state of denial regarding the ideological cause of radical jihad terrorism, then a bloody price is going to continue to be paid, because we will be unable to act on the obvious warnings.

597 baldeagle  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 4:14:42pm

If these kinds of "flags" had been raised during WWII from an active duty military type, he would have been removed from the general population and and tried as a traitor for aiding and abetting the enemy. We are in a war, whether anybody wants to believe it or not,,,it is not a law enforcement moment. Wishing something is what it isn't,, does not make it so. We are in serious trouble..I think Stalin said something like,,let us control the language and we will win,,,something similar.

598 Eaglekeeper85  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 6:27:11pm

Political Correctness will be the fall of this country. Do you still think he will get the death penalty?

599 jason97m  Mon, Nov 9, 2009 11:56:02pm

re: #597 baldeagle
Just wanted to add to your statement. This guy was not only a military officer, but also a doctor. He completely took advantage of the trust placed in him as a doctor to kill unarmed people, both combatants and non-combatants.

Earlier this year, I went through that same building as I processed for Afghanistan. The room offers no protection from bullets (only desks and cubicles), and it is packed with people (we had to wait in line outside in order to get inside to wait in line again). This made the room a prime target. I am sure Hasan's medical duties illustrated this target to him, and he soon took advantage of it.

Not only did Hasan take advantage of being an officer, but also of being a doctor, violating the trust of a great many people. I don't know what the answer is for Hasan, but the barbarity of this attack must be remembered, and used as an example of what our enemy is capable of doing, just as Sept. 11, 2001 is.

600 ed_gibbon  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 11:50:27am

"It would be nice for google to commemorate the fall of the Berlin Wall on their home page today. Instead they have Count Chocula."

Agreed! And yet...helping kids yearn for a world government, free from disagreements, borders, and intolerance is much more important - and practical - than commemorating the collapse of a totalitarian regime who shot people that wanted to leave.

601 Quilly Mammoth  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:02:38pm

It's a fine line to walk between pc induced caution and what Charles has reported up above about the AmericanFamily Institute.

Do you opt on the side of caution or do you just call them all out? it takes a fair degreee of personal integrity to tell the difference.

Personally, when the guy stated that his religion is above his country he should have been quietly and courteously shown the door. (Same for other religions btw).


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