American Family Association Advocates Banning Muslims from Military

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Weird • Tue Nov 10, 2009 at 12:59 pm PST • Views: 359

Donald Wildmon’s American Family Association has a blog, and on that blog they’re advocating: No More Muslims in the U.S. Military.

The author, Bryan Fischer, AFA’s “Director of Issues Analysis,” seems to believe he’s in a religious war between Christianity and Islam. To Fischer, all Muslims are enemies, and that’s how he thinks the military should treat them.

It it [sic] is time, I suggest, to stop the practice of allowing Muslims to serve in the U.S. military. The reason is simple: the more devout a Muslim is, the more of a threat he is to national security. Devout Muslims, who accept the teachings of the Prophet as divinely inspired, believe it is their duty to kill infidels. Yesterday’s massacre is living proof. And yesterday’s incident is not the first fragging incident involving a Muslim taking out his fellow U.S. soldiers.

Of course, most U.S. Muslims don’t shoot up their fellow soldiers. Fine. As soon as Muslims give us a foolproof way to identify their jihadis from their moderates, we’ll go back to allowing them to serve. You tell us who the ones are that we have to worry about, prove you’re right, and Muslims can once again serve. Until that day comes, we simply cannot afford the risk. You invent a jihadi-detector that works every time it’s used, and we’ll welcome you back with open arms.

This is not Islamophobia, it is Islamo-realism.

And don’t give us reassurances about the oaths that Muslim soldiers take to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Hasan took that oath, and it proved meaningless. In fact, the more devout a Muslim is, the more likely he is to lie to you through his teeth, since lying to the infidel to advance the cause of Islam is commended, not just permitted, in the Koran.

This incredibly stupid article is a grievous insult to the thousands of Muslims who serve with great valor in the US military, side by side with their comrades of different faiths. And it’s a profoundly un-American point of view to promote.

Shame on the American Family Association, who make a great show of standing for decency and family values, then turn around and advocate irrational bigotry and collective punishment.

Advertisement

376 comments

  • Comments do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 Big Steve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:02:58pm

It begins...

2 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:02:59pm

Here is the opposing viewpoint from the same website.

Fairness for All, Including Muslims

3 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:03:08pm

Do I even have to read it to want to shout, "IDIOTS!"?

4 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:03:26pm

Now that's insane. I can understand vetting for jihadism (as well as Dominionism), but to ban on the basis of religion just goes against everything this country was founded upon.

5 Kragar  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:03:38pm

Its an all volunteer service. Anyone who wants to serve to fight for this nation should be given the opportunity to do so.

6 Big Steve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:04:31pm

I like the tag on this..."bigotry"

7 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:04:45pm

re: #2 Ben Hur

Here is the opposing viewpoint from the same website.

Fairness for All, Including Muslims

People should take a look at the other perspective they've published. Seems neither one is their official position on the matter.

8 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:04:50pm

re: #2 Ben Hur

Here is the opposing viewpoint from the same website.

Fairness for All, Including Muslims

It's on the website, but not sure of the author's association with the AFA. The author: Elijah Friedeman, the Millennial Perspective

9 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:05:26pm

re: #4 Honorary Yooper

Now that's insane. I can understand vetting for jihadism (as well as Dominionism), but to ban on the basis of religion just goes against everything this country was founded upon.

Agreed.

Overkill.

(though I'm not ready for the 'the real victims of this attack were Muslims in the military...' just yet.)

10 e  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:05:45pm

What idiots. Still waiting for the grown up moderates to take over politics….

11 webevintage  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:06:01pm

Maybe we can also have them wear a big scarlet M on their uniform...it worked with Hester Pryne.
//

12 hicsuget  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:06:49pm
Shame on the American Family Association, who make a great show of standing for decency and family values, then turn around and advocate irrational bigotry and collective punishment.

I don't see a contradiction here, given how "decency and family values" are defined by those who advocate their legislation.

13 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:06:56pm

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

It's on the website, but not sure of the author's association with the AFA. The author: Elijah Friedeman, the Millennial Perspective

Well, they did post it, and in fact it appears on the front page listings for their site, so...

14 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:07:40pm

re: #10 e

What idiots. Still waiting for the grown up moderates to take over politics….

Interesting that you knew who Bryan Fischer was more than 5 minutes ago and that you've outed him as a major political leader.

15 Baier  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:08:11pm

I have a better idea, we should ban anyone that believes in Creationism from deciding what goes on in a science classroom.

16 Kragar  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:09:06pm
Of course, most U.S. (BLANK) don’t shoot up their fellow soldiers. Fine. As soon as (BLANK) give us a foolproof way to identify their jihadis from their moderates, we’ll go back to allowing them to serve.

Lets fill in the blank.
Christians
Blacks
Whites
Jews
Gays
Assholes named Bryan Fischer

17 Big Steve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:09:09pm

How exactly, with our constitution, does anyone bar any citizen from serving in the military? Saying that one religion or another cannot serve in the military, well it isn't even a slippery slope, it is a yawning chasm toward kicking people out of the country.

18 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:09:15pm

How did that SOA/SWT item get resolved? Was it a real business card and did it stand for Soldier of Allah?

19 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:09:43pm

re: #15 Baier

I have a better idea, we should ban anyone that believes in Creationism from deciding what goes on in a science classroom.

Maj Hasan was a Creationist.

20 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #18 carefulnow

How did that SOA/SWT item get resolved? Was it a real business card and did it stand for Soldier of Allah?

Servant of Allah (SWT). Just a muslim version of shomer shabbat.

21 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:10:27pm

re: #18 carefulnow

How did that SOA/SWT item get resolved? Was it a real business card and did it stand for Soldier of Allah?

re: #20 Guanxi88

Servant of Allah (SWT). Just a muslim version of shomer shabbat.

Nothing there to be alarmed about, and not unusual for a muslim professional.

22 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:10:31pm

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

23 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:10:49pm

re: #4 Honorary Yooper

The military has look not at banning one religious group but rather has to engage in the much more difficult and proper response: zero tolerance for all manner of extremism, whether its religious zealotry - jihad included - or gangbangers or white supremacists, etc. That should be of utmost concern since it all affects unit cohesion and performance and potentially loose cannons.

We are a nation that was founded on the principles of religious freedom and tolerance, and the US military was one of the vehicles and leading institutions to that end. Calling for banning Muslims from serving is just reprehensible and goes against 230+ years of history.

It also means paying closer attention to warning signs, and interventions when necessary.

24 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:11:59pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

Bless you.

25 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:12:15pm

re: #24 Decatur Deb

Bless you.

Thank you.

26 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:12:21pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

Why don't you comment on the SOCON that just murdered 15 of your fellow citizens?

27 Baier  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:12:30pm

re: #19 Ben Hur

Maj Hasan was a Creationist.

Probably still is. And I still don't think he should decide what is taught in a science classroom.

28 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:12:48pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

Fear of the Muslim.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

29 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:13:03pm

re: #27 Baier

Probably still is. And I still don't think he should decide what is taught in a science classroom.

Effen A.

30 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:13:05pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

I spoke of you nicely earlier.

I won't let it happen again.

/

31 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:13:08pm

re: #20 Guanxi88

So was it his real card then?

32 Big Steve  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:13:22pm

re: #23 lawhawk

The military has look not at banning one religious group but rather has to engage in the much more difficult and proper response: zero tolerance for all manner of extremism, whether its religious zealotry - jihad included - or gangbangers or white supremacists, etc. That should be of utmost concern since it all affects unit cohesion and performance and potentially loose cannons.

We are a nation that was founded on the principles of religious freedom and tolerance, and the US military was one of the vehicles and leading institutions to that end. Calling for banning Muslims from serving is just reprehensible and goes against 230+ years of history.

It also means paying closer attention to warning signs, and interventions when necessary.

Doesn't the military have the ultimate weapon here...orders...in my day your commanding officer could order you to do or not do just about anything and if you disobeyed it was off to Leavenworth for you. So while the FBI determined that Hasan was harmless could they have not just told the military to order him to not engage in internet chat?

33 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:13:57pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

He doth use a broad brush.

34 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:15:07pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He doth use a broad brush.

You notice that a lot of people do?

35 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:16:01pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

That's a bit of a strawman itself. Look, as one who holds socially conservative views and who indulges a taste in culture, literature, friends, and such that is not necessarily such as one would expect for one with such a view ,let me clarify a bit.

If it is the case that the character of the government is a matter of grave importance to the people who live under its power, and if the government is made up of citizens who are selected by their fellow citizens, then the character of the citizenry becomes important. As Aristotle pointed out, a republic requires the exercise of the very virtues necessary for its existence and survival. And so, we follow the culture wars closely.

Does this mean I want to lock up, ban, or otherwise hassle folks whose culutral preferences and preferred ways of being and doing differ from my own? No, but it does mean that such modes as appear likely to impede the exercise of the republican virtues are a matter of concern, and prudence suggests we make sure they do not become normative. They can and should be tolerated where they appear, but cannot gain dominance or even parity, without changing the character of the nation.

36 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:16:22pm

re: #30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I spoke of you nicely earlier.

I won't let it happen again.

/

FBV, you are so not the sort who thinks like this. Clearly you are not included in it.

There is a difference between being a conservative and being a fearful bigot.

Obviously I make that distinction.

re: #28 Ben Hur

Yes fear of the Muslim. Don't think for a second that I am soft on Jihadis. You've seen enough of my posts to know better. However, fighting the radicals of Islam and needing to defeat them is a much different thing then assuming that all Muslims need to be shunned or have their rights stripped. How could you possibly think that I am talking about anything else?

37 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:17:03pm

re: #31 carefulnow

So was it his real card then?

Looks like it was. A forgery wouldn't include an innocuous but obscure abbreviation used by muslims.

38 Gang of One  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:17:41pm

Oy. Fuckin'. Vey

39 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:17:43pm

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

You notice that a lot of people do?

Everybody uses a broad brush!

40 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:17:48pm

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

FBV, you are so not the sort who thinks like this. Clearly you are not included in it.

There is a difference between being a conservative and being a fearful bigot.

Obviously I make that distinction.

re: #28 Ben Hur

Yes fear of the Muslim. Don't think for a second that I am soft on Jihadis. You've seen enough of my posts to know better. However, fighting the radicals of Islam and needing to defeat them is a much different thing then assuming that all Muslims need to be shunned or have their rights stripped. How could you possibly think that I am talking about anything else?

WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

41 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:18:16pm

re: #35 Guanxi88

See my 36 and my reply to FBV. Then seriously ask yourself, if you are a "socon" then do you want the people who wrote this article speaking for you?

I used the word socon to distinguish from people like you. If there is some other lable that is better so be it.

Wing nut,
Theocon,
Ronulan,
Bircher

what do you want?

42 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:19:06pm

Bryan Fischer is a moron. He should be thanking the thousands of honorable muslims who serve in the US military for providing him the freedom to write his drivel.

43 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:19:11pm

AFA is the biggest mainstream group of Religious bigots in the US, they are also virulent homophobes. We have one of their AM stations in my area and it's unbelievable some of the things you hear. If media matters were monitoring them the way they do Fox news they would probably have several daily snips to disgust people in the US with.

44 ckb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:19:19pm

How about we just ban the ones who say that they are loyal to (Insert Religion Here) first, and America second.

If your loyalty is not with the country, you should not be in the service.

45 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:19:59pm

re: #40 Ben Hur

WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

I didn't say you were. However the writers of this article need to learn something about the American values they are tearing down in order to "defend" America. They, and the morons who think like them most certainly are a problem.

46 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:20:09pm

re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

See my 36 and my reply to FBV. Then seriously ask yourself, if you are a "socon" then do you want the people who wrote this article speaking for you?

I used the word socon to distinguish from people like you. If there is some other lable that is better so be it.

Wing nut,
Theocon,
Ronulan,
Bircher

what do you want?

Which article? The one that for you portends the end of conservatism, or the opposing viewpoint they posted on the same site?

Wing Nut, Theocon, Ronulan, Bircher. Great, we're reduced to name-calling. you've read my postings here, you know these aren't applicable. So why do it?

47 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:20:48pm

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

FBV, you are so not the sort who thinks like this. Clearly you are not included in it.

There is a difference between being a conservative and being a fearful bigot.

Obviously I make that distinction.

re: #28 Ben Hur

Yes fear of the Muslim. Don't think for a second that I am soft on Jihadis. You've seen enough of my posts to know better. However, fighting the radicals of Islam and needing to defeat them is a much different thing then assuming that all Muslims need to be shunned or have their rights stripped. How could you possibly think that I am talking about anything else?

Maybe it's when you lump all Socons together "If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?"

Maybe when you bring race into it " Fear everything that isn't lilly white..."

Maybe it's when you collect all lover of liberty under one umbrella like " Call it loving liberty..."

Maybe it's when you build the same kind of strawmen you are so afraid that the right constructs.

48 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:22:32pm

re: #44 ckb

How about we just ban the ones who say that they are loyal to (Insert Religion Here) first, and America second.

If your loyalty is not with the country, you should not be in the service.

That could be troublesome. Many mainstream religions explicitly or implicitly
claim hold to the priority of Godly to earthly authority. I could find it in my
Catholic upbringing.

49 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:22:42pm
50 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:23:31pm
American Family Association Advocates Banning Muslims from Military

Muslims in our military are fighting for your right to be such a**holes, AFA. So shut up!
-irony overkill!!-

51 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:23:42pm

I just want a little consistency.

Fear the Christian SOCON culture, because they're bad because the fear the SOCON Muslim that is the SOCON Christian on a massive cocktail of METH, SPEED, ACID and PCP, who have at least 22 governments codifiying that shit in the law.

Don't jump to conclusions, unless the guy is hanging from a tree with his feet touching the ground 5 minutes after Pelosi said it would happen, or is a white cop arresting a "i'm not one of THOSE" professors.

(keep in mind that I'm not refering to the anti-abortion terror types)

The article is just that, an article by someone you had no clue about now 15 minutes ago.

The murder of 15 Americans by an Islamo effing Nazi doesn't cause me to jump and scream about Pat Robertson.

52 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:24:14pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

That could be troublesome. Many mainstream religions explicitly or implicitly
claim hold to the priority of Godly to earthly authority. I could find it in my
Catholic upbringing.

Really, could you please find me the official position of the Catholic Church on governments and earthly authorities?

53 recusancy  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:24:16pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

That could be troublesome. Many mainstream religions explicitly or implicitly
claim hold to the priority of Godly to earthly authority. I could find it in my
Catholic upbringing.

Agreed. Just look at the service today. Christian chaplain and a benediction. You start asking troops who they put first God or Country you might get some answers you don't like.

54 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:24:42pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton


Maybe your response is because you know full well what I am talking about. There have only been about ten dozen threads here detailing the fall of the right into racist, hateful, anti-science madness.

We can quibble the semanitcs all you want. That is a rather stupid game in my opinion but fine.

Don't let it distract you from the facts of the very real, very widespread and very hateful things I am talking about. If you feel affinity for those morons, then that is on your watch and not mine.

55 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:25:33pm

re: #43 Thanos

AFA is the biggest mainstream group of Religious bigots in the US, they are also virulent homophobes. We have one of their AM stations in my area and it's unbelievable some of the things you hear. If media matters were monitoring them the way they do Fox news they would probably have several daily snips to disgust people in the US with.

MMFA does monitor them somewhat, but you're right. I wish they and some of these other 'religious' and 'family values' associations were getting that kind of scrutiny on a daily basis. Here's some past meida matters headlines about them: they really are homophobic:

AFA's Wildmon proposed a hypothetical tour of gay bathhouses, repeated misinformation on average gay incomes
March 16, 2006 4:03 pm ET filed under Research

American Family Association opened its airwaves to advocate for executing gays, adulterers, abortion doctors
February 14, 2006 11:08 am ET filed under Research

Lou Sheldon suggested exorcism is necessary to "release" a person from homosexual lifestyle

October 13, 2005 5:58 pm ET filed under Research

American Family Association's Tim Wildmon backed caller's warning of "evidence of homosexuality and lesbian people on programs like HGTV and Animal Planet"

And here's a little antisemitism thrown in:
Don Wildmon's American Family Association Journal linked Judaism to criminality, hostility toward Christianity

56 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:25:40pm

One wonders if such an "issues analyst" might realize that someone joining the US Military with the express purpose of Jihad might just lie about his/her faith. So you ban the vast number of Muslims of goodwill and end up allowing the bad one.

Oddly that is why gun bans don't work - when you criminalize guns only criminals have them.

57 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:25:49pm

Just waiting for the predictable turn of the conversation to this being Obama with a zero for an O's fault. Or that he addressed it but was creepy when he did it, or didn't address it and he should, or did address it but someone wrote his speech so it doesn't count or how Obama has a family so he must be linked to the American Family Association...

58 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:25:49pm

re: #43 Thanos

AFA is the biggest mainstream group of Religious bigots in the US, they are also virulent homophobes. We have one of their AM stations in my area and it's unbelievable some of the things you hear. If media matters were monitoring them the way they do Fox news they would probably have several daily snips to disgust people in the US with.

Very true, but I still would look look outside to see for myself if Media Matters told me the sky was blue. I remember what they have done in the past.

Cases in point:

Media Matters Attacks the Associated Press
When Media Matters Attacks
Media Matters Suddenly Trusts the Media

I don't like the AFA either. I agree that they're a bunch of bigots.

59 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:26:30pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Maybe it's your impeccable timing.

They're not buried yet and it's straight to the effen Christians.

It's a habit of my liberal Jewish friends.

60 ckb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:00pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

That could be troublesome. Many mainstream religions explicitly or implicitly
claim hold to the priority of Godly to earthly authority. I could find it in my
Catholic upbringing.

The query is not what the religion says or teaches, it is what the *PERSON* says. Hasan told us what he was loyal to.

How many Catholic US soldiers killed people in WW II? Doesn't seem very problematic to me.

61 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:02pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Really, could you please find me the official position of the Catholic Church on governments and earthly authorities?

It'll take some time to give you chapter and verse. My "Companion to the
Summa" is stuck away somewhere and I haven't searched the web for
Aquinas.

62 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:17pm

re: #54 LudwigVanQuixote

Maybe your response is because you know full well what I am talking about. There have only been about ten dozen threads here detailing the fall of the right into racist, hateful, anti-science madness.

We can quibble the semanitcs all you want. That is a rather stupid game in my opinion but fine.

Don't let it distract you from the facts of the very real, very widespread and very hateful things I am talking about. If you feel affinity for those morons, then that is on your watch and not mine.

I can't sand a single one of them. But I am not going to drop in here day after day and post comments that paint all conservative with some broad brush.

I may know what you are talking about, others here may know what you are talking about, but not everyone reading this knows what you are talking about.

For an outsider, a lurker a casual visitor, you would come across as painter all conservatives as racist bastards.

Do you care?

63 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:25pm

re: #46 Guanxi88

Again, this is not about name calling. This is about fearful politics and teh politics of fear... Or have you been missing the whole

Obama is going to take your guns, so you can't resist when he has a death panel kill your granny, as a communist Muslim meme?

Have you been missing the anti science, anti intellectual meme?

Have you been missing the anti Muslim in general meme?

Have you been missing the whole alliance with white supremacists meme?

Look, the phenomena is real. I do not group you into it. However, taking offence at calling it what it is will not change it.

64 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:26pm

Well, yes, obviously Wildmon's statement is a stupid thing to say. But, there is a problem, and it's a difficult problem--one that we really don't want to look at in hindsight, as in, the military should have stopped this guy before his rampage. After every terrorist incident (and one thing we might have to do is define terrorism and differentiate it from PTSD), hindsight has always found the dots that weren't connected.

I am not saying that I have an answer, or that anyone has an answer--but that's why there is fear and stupid statements that are unconstitutional. It's just a very complex problem.

65 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:51pm

re: #55 iceweasel

Congratulations!

66 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:27:56pm

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

67 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:28:04pm

re: #57 Locker

Just waiting for the predictable turn of the conversation to this being Obama with a zero for an O's fault. Or that he addressed it but was creepy when he did it, or didn't address it and he should, or did address it but someone wrote his speech so it doesn't count or how Obama has a family so he must be linked to the American Family Association...

We'll get back to you with that!

68 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:28:49pm

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

Again, this is not about name calling. This is about fearful politics and teh politics of fear... Or have you been missing the whole

Obama is going to take your guns, so you can't resist when he has a death panel kill your granny, as a communist Muslim meme?

Have you been missing the anti science, anti intellectual meme?

Have you been missing the anti Muslim in general meme?

Have you been missing the whole alliance with white supremacists meme?

Look, the phenomena is real. I do not group you into it. However, taking offence at calling it what it is will not change it.

Have you been missing how broad that brush is in your hand?

69 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:28:49pm

re: #60 ckb

The query is not what the religion says or teaches, it is what the *PERSON* says. Hasan told us what he was loyal to.

How many Catholic US soldiers killed people in WW II? Doesn't seem very problematic to me.

Many killed, including my father. He didn't have to straddle the authority
question because it wasn't raised.

70 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:28:56pm

re: #55 iceweasel

re: #65 Ben Hur

Same here Iceweasel, although usually I bid people "Good Luck" rather than congrats. ;)

71 recusancy  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:28:59pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

Yes.

72 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:29:29pm

re: #51 Ben Hur

If you thnik for one minute, I am defending Islamofascists, you need to breathe and think a minute. This thread is not about Islamofascists. It is about American fascist wannabes who want to strip other Americans of their rights. Let's keep that in perspective.

73 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:29:33pm

re: #61 Decatur Deb

It'll take some time to give you chapter and verse. My "Companion to the
Summa" is stuck away somewhere and I haven't searched the web for
Aquinas.

The Schoolmen (scholastics) generally held that governments were instituted among men with divine approval and permission for the maintenance of order and justice, and were to be supported by Christians, in their capacity as more or less defective versions (to mix in Augustine) or Earthly Jerusalems, images of the heavenly Jerusalem of which Christ is citizen and king. The Church has always supported civil authorities, except in cases of obvious evil.

74 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:29:36pm

re: #67 Walter L. Newton

We'll get back to you with that!

I should have known you were the battle commander...

75 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

Not as far as I'm concerned. It is certainly a theocracy, for the purest true Muslim, who is following the precepts of the Koran, it can't be anything but.

76 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:29:56pm

re: #71 recusancy

Yes.

why exactly?

77 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:30:09pm

re: #72 LudwigVanQuixote

Absolutely not.

I'm not that pissed.

78 ckb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:30:29pm

re: #69 Decatur Deb

Many killed, including my father. He didn't have to straddle the authority
question because it wasn't raised.

The oath, for reference:

I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.[1]

Lets start there.

79 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:30:46pm

re: #57 Locker

You kidding me? ☼6ªmª '§ fingerprints are all over this!

80 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:30:54pm

re: #71 recusancy

Yes.

Absolute revisionism, and would be considered such by every Muslim.

81 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:31:03pm

re: #55 iceweasel

Actually, the "evidence of homosexuality and lesbian people on programs like HGTV and Animal Planet" has really helped my teenage boys see that gays are just like our (very traditional) family. It's so normal, it's banal.

82 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:31:43pm

re: #79 bosforus

You kidding me? ☼6ªmª '§ fingerprints are all over this!

That's grand master level l33t sp34k there yes siree bob!

83 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:31:44pm

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

Again, this is not about name calling. This is about fearful politics and teh politics of fear... Or have you been missing the whole

Obama is going to take your guns, so you can't resist when he has a death panel kill your granny, as a communist Muslim meme?

Have you been missing the anti science, anti intellectual meme?

Have you been missing the anti Muslim in general meme?

Have you been missing the whole alliance with white supremacists meme?

Look, the phenomena is real. I do not group you into it. However, taking offence at calling it what it is will not change it.

No, lumping in legitimate political concerns with the fevered imaginings of the Ronulans or Dominionists is precisely the sort of sloppy intellectual elision that allows so many people to hold Obama and Clinton to be on a continuum with Pol Pot and Lenin.

84 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:31:52pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

That's what Sharia's for... which also happens to be subject to Islam.

85 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:31:54pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

The Schoolmen (scholastics) generally held that governments were instituted among men with divine approval and permission for the maintenance of order and justice, and were to be supported by Christians, in their capacity as more or less defective versions (to mix in Augustine) or Earthly Jerusalems, images of the heavenly Jerusalem of which Christ is citizen and king. The Church has always supported civil authorities, except in cases of obvious evil.

Exactly, and the whole history of excommunicated rulers and interdictions
shows the primacy of heavenly (and Petrine) authority.

86 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:32:11pm

re: #58 Honorary Yooper

Very true, but I still would look look outside to see for myself if Media Matters told me the sky was blue. I remember what they have done in the past.

Cases in point:

Media Matters Attacks the Associated Press
When Media Matters Attacks
Media Matters Suddenly Trusts the Media

I don't like the AFA either. I agree that they're a bunch of bigots.

You know I'm not one to believe anything from just one source, this is from my own observation. Typically I can only stand them ten to fifteen minutes at a time before I have to flip the dial, but I tune in to heard what the hard core fundy outrage of the day is at AFA just so I know what Michelle Malkin will be blogging about the next week.

87 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:32:14pm

re: #82 Locker

That's grand master level l33t sp34k there yes siree bob!

I had a little help. I admit.

88 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:32:37pm

re: #71 recusancy

Yes.

Alfarabi, Averroes, Avicenna, and countless other Islamic thinkers of the Platonic and Aristotelian tradition saw it that way. Were the fathers of Arab philosophy anti-islamic bigots?

89 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:33:08pm

re: #57 Locker

Just waiting for the predictable turn of the conversation to this being Obama with a zero for an O's fault. Or that he addressed it but was creepy when he did it, or didn't address it and he should, or did address it but someone wrote his speech so it doesn't count or how Obama has a family so he must be linked to the American Family Association...

Actually, it was already discussed and preemptively decided downstairs that anyone attempting to turn today's service for political points was an asshole.

Meaning anyone.

*cough*

90 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:33:29pm

re: #59 Ben Hur

Maybe it's your impeccable timing.

They're not buried yet and it's straight to the effen Christians.

It's a habit of my liberal Jewish friends.

That is such an asshole thing to say Ben.

I am not attacking Christians at all. In fact, I didn't even use the word Christian in my post. Though you are correct, some of the fundies fit into this. There is a difference between a Socon Fundie and a Christian BTW. Real Christians are into things like peace, forgiveness and avoiding violence.

And as to being a liberal Jew, Some of my right wing Jewish friends need to learn who is actually a liberal. And if you were to study our history a little better, you would remember that our people do not fair well under any fanatical religious set.

My opposition is to fanatics. I am clearly not bashing Christians. That was a real Jerk thing to say.

91 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:33:36pm

re: #65 Ben Hur

Congratulations!

Hey, thanks! :) Very happy here.

92 Gang of One  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:33:55pm

re: #71 recusancy

Yes.

Why?

93 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:33:59pm

re: #89 SixDegrees

Actually, it was already discussed and preemptively decided downstairs that anyone attempting to turn today's service for political points was an asshole.

Meaning anyone.

*cough*

Locker is disappointed that no one here took his bait... try again Locker.

94 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:34:05pm

In my opinion, Hasan was clearly a devoted jihadi. The ultimate responsibility is his. However, there were multiple levels of institutional failure that permitted him to remain in the Army and plot and carry out his attack. Jihadis love an audience, and this guy was giving freaking powerpoint presentations about the glory of militant Islam. Maybe it just makes more sense for our intelligence agencies and the Army to sync up and deal with the militant jihadis? Call me crazy, but it seems more efficient and equitable to actually react to warning signs rather than purge thousands of innocent, hard-working Muslims defending our country "just to be sure".

Don't we WANT Muslim-Americans fighting on our side? For every bad seed, there are hundreds serving with honor. Why insult them and send them packing with real grievances and military training? I hate militant Islamists and the whole jihadi BS, but at the same time this is freaking America. Our entire legal system is based on the presumption of innocence.

Honest to god, purges? Really?

95 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:34:06pm

re: #89 SixDegrees

Actually, it was already discussed and preemptively decided downstairs that anyone attempting to turn today's service for political points was an asshole.

Meaning anyone.

*cough*

You must have missed today's previous threads.

96 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:34:07pm

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

re: #84 bosforus

I agree. I don't think anyone can take a look at the founding of Islam and come away with any idea other than it got its start as political theory.

97 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:34:55pm

re: #85 Decatur Deb

Exactly, and the whole history of excommunicated rulers and interdictions
shows the primacy of heavenly (and Petrine) authority.

War of the Rosesre: #85 Decatur Deb

Exactly, and the whole history of excommunicated rulers and interdictions
shows the primacy of heavenly (and Petrine) authority.

Yes, but, and here's an important distinction, the excommunication of a ruler and inerdictions of communion are not quite the same thing as, say, sending in an army or killing a leader.

98 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:35:06pm

re: #86 Thanos

You know I'm not one to believe anything from just one source, this is from my own observation. Typically I can only stand them ten to fifteen minutes at a time before I have to flip the dial, but I tune in to heard what the hard core fundy outrage of the day is at AFA just so I know what Michelle Malkin will be blogging about the next week.

Heh. :-)

I know you look at multiple sources as one source tends to be biased in its own way. In many ways, Media Matters and Michelle Malkin are sort of meant for each other. One feeds off the outrage of the other.

99 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:35:17pm

Here is audio of Bryan Fischer trying to defend that editorial on the Alan Colmes show yesterday:

[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

Colmes continually pressed Fischer to explain why members of an entire religion should be barred from military service based upon the actions of one man, but Fischer was adamant that devout Muslims are required to kill Americans, saying that "until we can get a guarantee from them [military members] that they will never, ever take their religion seriously" then they should be banned from serving. He also demanded to know "how many American soldiers you are willing to sacrifice on the altar of political correctness":

100 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:35:35pm

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Here we go... "That is such an asshole thing to say Ben." I was wondering which Lizard was going to get slung the first bit of foul language by Ludwig?. You win Ben. It should only be downhill from here.

101 recusancy  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:35:49pm

re: #76 RogueOne

why exactly?

You could look at all Abrahamic religions as political theories if you wanted to. And Pat Robertson said that so you're in good company.

102 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:36:01pm

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

I apologize.

Stepping away for a few.

103 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:36:05pm

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Locker is disappointed that no one here took his bait... try again Locker.

Sorry man you can't just run 88 mph and reverse time. You already took the bait and it can't be un-taken. VICTORY IS MINE!

104 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:36:30pm

Wingnuts seem to leap at any chance to apply their nativist ideology to the military. An acquaintance of mine, a far right creationist and antivaxxer, was horrified and scandalized to learn that 60,000 Mexican citizens were allowed to serve in the US armed forces during World War 2. The Mexican government had arranged this program in lieu of sending an army of their own overseas (they did, however, send an air force squadron to fight in the Phillipines).

The acquaintance was even more horrified to learn that citizenship is not a requirement for military service and that, in fact, there is a long tradition of enlisting non-citizens. Nativists are always insisting that they would be ok with immigration if the immigrants would only earn their way. Then, when a non-citizen actually ponies up in the biggest way possible by joining the armed forces, the nuts raise the bar and reject that too.

This is about nationality, of course, but the same nativist streak applies equally to religion, especially since the far right does not appear to distinguish between the two when Islam is involved. It is about the alien, the other, the foreigner, the person of color, the scholar, the weird guy down the street.

105 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:36:52pm
106 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:37:00pm

re: #83 Guanxi88

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Um guys, just to remind you, the title of this thread is:

American Family Association Advocates Banning Muslims from Military

What kind of people would advocate that?

If you are lumped in with them then you need to rethink your views. If you are not lumped in with them, then do me the kindness of chilling out and realizing I am not talking about you.

107 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:37:12pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

Maybe. Maybe not.

There are many who claim that posting the Ten Commandments in public courtrooms is acceptable, and that the United States was designed by Christians, for Christians, with explicitly Christian underpinnings and directives. And there are those who claim that the Constitution needs to be rewritten to be more explicitly in sync with Biblical precepts.

Does any of that make Christianity more of a political theory than a religion?

108 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #86 Thanos

You know I'm not one to believe anything from just one source, this is from my own observation. Typically I can only stand them ten to fifteen minutes at a time before I have to flip the dial, but I tune in to heard what the hard core fundy outrage of the day is at AFA just so I know what Michelle Malkin will be blogging about the next week.

AFA is very bad news. The Media Matters stories I linked on them are all sourced. The fact that an organisation as virulently homophobic and bigoted as the AFA can be considered 'mainstream' in any way is very bad news.

109 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:37:30pm

re: #101 recusancy

You could look at all Abrahamic religions as political theories if you wanted to. And Pat Robertson said that so you're in good company.

You were so close to a godwin..."you know who else liked political theory?" You wanted to do it didn't ya?
//

110 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:38:11pm

re: #97 Guanxi88

Yes, but, and here's an important distinction, the excommunication of a ruler and inerdictions of communion are not quite the same thing as, say, sending in an army or killing a leader.

You're losing me there (sending in armies). I'm trying to show Walter how
the Catholic church has held for the priority of heavenly authority.

111 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:38:34pm

re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

See my 36 and my reply to FBV. Then seriously ask yourself, if you are a "socon" then do you want the people who wrote this article speaking for you?

I used the word socon to distinguish from people like you. If there is some other lable that is better so be it.

Wing nut,
Theocon,
Ronulan,
Bircher

what do you want?

I am a Ziocon, and proud of it!

/as long as we're pigeonholing everybody

112 Locker  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:39:07pm

re: #95 Locker

What's the matter Fenway? Still pissed off the Yankees won the series? Oh yea I went there!

113 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:39:07pm

re: #104 Shiplord Kirel

This is about nationality, of course, but the same nativist streak applies equally to religion, especially since the far right does not appear to distinguish between the two when Islam is involved. It is about the alien, the other, the foreigner, the person of color, the scholar, the weird guy down the street.

Exactly. And we already have a wonderful name for them in the US without resorting to WWII. We can call them "Know-Nothings". That's who they are; that's from whence they came.

114 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:39:09pm

One other point. The whole rationale behind jihadist fighting (terrorism) is to make you afraid in a general sense, that it could happen at any time. It's to make you afraid of their particular group, to make you afraid of all Muslims, to make you fear Islam, and through this fear, have you hold the Koran in higher esteem than other scriptures from other faiths. So if there is widespread fear, that's the whole point.

115 doubter4444  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:39:28pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

You know, I was thinking of this the other day.
The irrational level of fear and hate, or anger is breath taking.
I caught a bit of a PBS thing on the national park system and it was great, and I thought about the level of the fear and anger that is the right nowadays; and while I listened to the scientists, the historians and the poets go on about the beauty and need for the parks I thought of all the arguments that people would hate an innocuous piece on the natural beauty of the US.
A) would never turn on the commie PBS
B) would despise the language as soft, or tree-hugging, or "intellectually"
C) would look at the entire thing as propaganda, and disregard it
D) Would look at the names of the people involved and despise them as anti-American, or not in touch with the real America.
And this just in a simple piece about parks. It's like the right just can't lighten up. It's always been the joke on the left that the earnestness of the of newly minted coed could only be taken in correlation with the degree to which she was hot (or the degree to which one wanted to get a leg over, at any rate), because they were stultifying boring and just unable to lighten up.
Now it endemic on the right too, but it's not PC relativism, it's deep seated fear and anger that won't be tamped down.

116 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:39:28pm

re: #94 Diamond Bullet

In my opinion, Hasan was clearly a devoted jihadi. The ultimate responsibility is his. However, there were multiple levels of institutional failure that permitted him to remain in the Army and plot and carry out his attack. Jihadis love an audience, and this guy was giving freaking powerpoint presentations about the glory of militant Islam. Maybe it just makes more sense for our intelligence agencies and the Army to sync up and deal with the militant jihadis? Call me crazy, but it seems more efficient and equitable to actually react to warning signs rather than purge thousands of innocent, hard-working Muslims defending our country "just to be sure".

Don't we WANT Muslim-Americans fighting on our side? For every bad seed, there are hundreds serving with honor. Why insult them and send them packing with real grievances and military training? I hate militant Islamists and the whole jihadi BS, but at the same time this is freaking America. Our entire legal system is based on the presumption of innocence.

Honest to god, purges? Really?

(reprinted from earlier thread)

Every Mulsim is not a problem, but there was/is a problem with THIS Muslim.

There is nothing wrong with informing oneself of the possibilities that exist when you are dealing with ANY Muslim when they show the signs that Hasan showed.

It's the same with anyone. If you start acting suspicious, hanging around, oh let's say, a ATM machine, day after day, or if you keep meeting shady characters in alleys in neighborhoods known for drug dealing, you may (should?) attract the attention of law enforcement officials.

Society knows what to watch out for when it comes to criminals, we know the signs of addiction, bigotry, racism, and we need to know what to watch out for when it comes to terror.

This was not a disgruntled worker situation, this is a disgruntled Muslim, who's religion conflicted with his job. ("Disgruntled is such a nice soft word isn't it?")

I don't think this man was part of a "cell" or any sort of band of radical Muslims (although his communications with the radical Iman in Yemem may shake out to be interesting). But I don't have to fellowship with other Christians to follow the precepts of Christianity, do I? I could be a single Christian in a non-Christian situation, in a non-Christian country and my religion, my holy texts, my upbringing and my mental state informs me of what I should do as a Christian.

The same thing is possible with Hasan (and evidence is starting to prove this). And this wasn't just a current revelation that just came to Hasan. The authorities are uncovering a history of his public radical Muslim rhetoric, and many of his fellow coworkers have been aware of this for a number of years.

This is not Sudden Something Anything Syndrome.

He was a lone terrorist, informed by the inculcation of the Koran, his religious upbringing, a radical Iman and the support of every other radical Muslim the world over. And on Thursday Nov. 5th, 2009 he decided to reveal his hatred for the system that gave him so many freedoms, even the freedom to hate.

This is Islamo-realism.

117 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:40:06pm

re: #106 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Um guys, just to remind you, the title of this thread is:

American Family Association Advocates Banning Muslims from Military

What kind of people would advocate that?

If you are lumped in with them then you need to rethink your views. If you are not lumped in with them, then do me the kindness of chilling out and realizing I am not talking about you.

Um, Ludwig, just to remind you:

Howzabout you don't lump us in with them, and then you'll be pleased to see that we're not lumped in with them?

118 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:40:09pm

re: #105 Fenway_Nation

You spelled "twit" wrong, jork.

119 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:40:28pm

re: #111 Alouette

I am a Ziocon, and proud of it!

/as long as we're pigeonholing everybody

Yes and I am happily Zionist too and even religious. However, that does not mean I want to tear down American values and strip innocent people of their rights.

120 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:40:29pm

re: #106 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Um guys, just to remind you, the title of this thread is:

American Family Association Advocates Banning Muslims from Military

What kind of people would advocate that?

If you are lumped in with them then you need to rethink your views. If you are not lumped in with them, then do me the kindness of chilling out and realizing I am not talking about you.

You've taken it upon yourself to lump anyone who remotely leans to the right in with them.

121 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:41:02pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

You're losing me there (sending in armies). I'm trying to show Walter how
the Catholic church has held for the priority of heavenly authority.

It has, but, and this is crucial, its supremacy and priority of mandate does not equate to political or military action, nor does it condone or permit such action by its adherents.

122 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:41:07pm

re: #104 Shiplord Kirel

Nativists are always insisting that they would be ok with immigration if the immigrants would only earn their way. Then, when a non-citizen actually ponies up in the biggest way possible by joining the armed forces, the nuts raise the bar and reject that too.

Spot on. Which gives the lie to the notion that their objections are grounded in anything rational. Like the BNP, they cloak their actual aims and motivations (bigotry, xenophobia) with words like 'identity' or 'our shared heritage'.

This is about nationality, of course, but the same nativist streak applies equally to religion, especially since the far right does not appear to distinguish between the two when Islam is involved. It is about the alien, the other, the foreigner, the person of color, the scholar, the weird guy down the street.

Damn straight! Well said.

123 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:41:42pm

re: #117 Guanxi88

Dude there are only about four posts where I explain I do not lump you with them. How about you chill?

124 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:41:47pm

re: #107 SixDegrees

Maybe. Maybe not.

There are many who claim that posting the Ten Commandments in public courtrooms is acceptable, and that the United States was designed by Christians, for Christians, with explicitly Christian underpinnings and directives. And there are those who claim that the Constitution needs to be rewritten to be more explicitly in sync with Biblical precepts.

Does any of that make Christianity more of a political theory than a religion?

Let me answer that with a question, do you believe the goal of jesus was to spread a political empire? I'm talking about Islam itself, not muslims. (that make sense?)

125 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:41:56pm

re: #118 wrenchwench


what the fark?

126 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:42:07pm

re: #115 doubter4444

This is a great post.

127 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:42:36pm

re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and I am happily Zionist too and even religious. However, that does not mean I want to tear down American values and strip innocent people of their rights.

Excellent, then. Tell me, as religious conservative, how do you feel to know that people like Ludwig lump you in with fanatical bigots and Dominionists? maybe you should rethink your views so you're more in accord with Ludwig's recommendations.

128 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:43:13pm

Charles -

OT but I followed a google ad on your site to this quiz.

I tooked it an i haz deh ghey.

129 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:43:42pm

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude there are only about four posts where I explain I do not lump you with them. How about you chill?

And yet, you still bring me into their company. Why, if the intent isn't to group things by similarities you observe into categories. I will not sit by and be accused of holding beliefs I do not hold in order to make allow you to ride your hobbyhorse.

130 checked08  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:44:43pm

Speaking of religious crazes, anyone hear that the Washing Times may be going under?

131 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:44:59pm

Well it's good to see that we've filled the "don't talk bad about Obama" discussion void with much more positive words.
-taking a break-

132 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:45:15pm

Because all those outdoors types, the hunters, the fisherman, the mountain men, etc etc etc . are urban elites.

WTF?

You watched that amazing show and THAT'S where it led you?

To evil rightists that must hate nature.

Watch the whole thing next time.

133 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:45:58pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

There's a billion and a half muslims on earth, as I am fond of reminding people, and they don't all have remotely the same politics.

134 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:45:58pm

re: #130 checked08

Speaking of religious crazes, anyone hear that the Washing Times may be going under?

Yep. I posted that in spinoffs somewhere. It couldn't happen to a nicer mouthpiece for bigotry and extremism!

135 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:46:51pm

re: #127 Guanxi88

I really think you need to re-read what was written then. If ten declarations of the distinctions I've made are not sufficient then I don't know what else will be.

136 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:47:10pm

re: #130 checked08

Speaking of religious crazes, anyone hear that the Washing Times may be going under?

Is there another news source for that? Not that I don't trust Talking Points Memo, but, I just don't. Anything from AP, CNN, ABC, etc?

137 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:48:04pm

re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and I am happily Zionist too and even religious. However, that does not mean I want to tear down American values and strip innocent people of their rights.

You're also a Zionist? you know, yours truly is a Zionist as well, you may want to rethink that in order to dodge such unsavory company.

And Kahane, he was a zionist. You want to be in the same group with that guy?

138 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:48:17pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

There's a billion and a half muslims on earth, as I am fond of reminding people, and they don't all have remotely the same politics.

Islam is a religion, political system and a cultural system.

139 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:48:32pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Really, could you please find me the official position of the Catholic Church on governments and earthly authorities?

This should cover it, Walter, though it's a quick grab. It's too lengthy to quote entirely, but I can break parts out at leisure. The priority of heaven was so
ingrained in us by the nuns (Roman martyrs etc) that it seems like a truism.

140 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:48:36pm

re: #133 WindUpBird

There's a billion and a half muslims on earth, as I am fond of reminding people, and they don't all have remotely the same politics.

But, they all have the same Koran. Not every one of them follow every precept in it, but they are free to at any time.

141 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:48:56pm

re: #124 RogueOne

Let me answer that with a question, do you believe the goal of jesus was to spread a political empire? I'm talking about Islam itself, not muslims. (that make sense?)

That very argument is being made, explicitly, by many on the religious right, notably Chucklebee.

You can't separate a religion from it's practitioners. The Catholic Church once engaged in all manner of unpleasant political behavior, and had no problems finding justification for every last whit of it in scripture and doctrine. They've gotten past all that in the last few centuries, but Crusades, the Inquisition and the occasional heretic roast were once common.

And there are those who would like nothing better than to see a lot of those practices brought back, or who at least agree with the underlying goals - a purge of non-believers and strict adherence by all to rigid (un)Christian principles.

142 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:49:19pm

re: #135 LudwigVanQuixote

I really think you need to re-read what was written then let me move the goalposts again.

Fixed that for you.

143 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:50:11pm

re: #128 karmic_inquisitor

Charles -

OT but I followed a google ad on your site to this quiz.

I tooked it an i haz deh ghey.

i tried getting through the test -- what a ham-handed mess.

I'm surprised one of the questions wasn't:

"How often do you catch your man in bed with another man?"

A) never
B) once a week
C) once a month
D) on occasion
E) only with his best friend, so it's ok.

144 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:50:37pm

re: #136 Honorary Yooper

Hey, Ice, you got a problem with wanting confirmation about #130 from a real news service like AP, CNN, or ABC instead of simply relying on Talking Points Memo's word?

145 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:50:44pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

It has, but, and this is crucial, its supremacy and priority of mandate does not equate to political or military action, nor does it condone or permit such action by its adherents.

Sure it does. If you are a Roman Christian soldier and step away from
Diocletian's orders to persecute, you go to heaven--after a short execution.

146 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:50:46pm

re: #136 Honorary Yooper

Is there another news source for that? Not that I don't trust Talking Points Memo, but, I just don't. Anything from AP, CNN, ABC, etc?

Check the links in the story.
AP:
[Link: www.google.com...]

Politico has the WT announcement:
[Link: www.politico.com...]

In general, it's a good idea to check and see if the story is sourced, rather than dismissing it because you don't like TPM.

147 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:51:01pm

re: #137 Guanxi88

You're also a Zionist? you know, yours truly is a Zionist as well, you may want to rethink that in order to dodge such unsavory company.

And Kahane, he was a zionist. You want to be in the same group with that guy?

NO I am rather appalled at Kahane and I don't lump myself in with him. Of course I am capable of making distinctions.

Where exactly are you lumped in with the morons I am talking about?

Just because the American right is ever more infested with them does not mean that all right leaning people are like that.

However, as anther distinction, there are relatively few Zionists who are into Kahane - certainly in comparison to the legions of people who believe BEck, Rush, Palin and drivel like this thread is supposed to be about.

148 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:51:26pm

re: #144 Honorary Yooper

Hey, Ice, you got a problem with wanting confirmation about #130 from a real news service like AP, CNN, or ABC instead of simply relying on Talking Points Memo's word?

Yep. See above.

149 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:51:53pm

re: #146 iceweasel

Check the links in the story.
AP:
[Link: www.google.com...]

Politico has the WT announcement:
[Link: www.politico.com...]

In general, it's a good idea to check and see if the story is sourced, rather than dismissing it because you don't like TPM.

Then post the links to the real news, not a shitsite like TPM. TPM filters what has already gone through a filter.

150 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:52:07pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

To which I replied:
re: #35 Guanxi88

That's a bit of a strawman itself. Look, as one who holds socially conservative views and who indulges a taste in culture, literature, friends, and such that is not necessarily such as one would expect for one with such a view ,let me clarify a bit.

If it is the case that the character of the government is a matter of grave importance to the people who live under its power, and if the government is made up of citizens who are selected by their fellow citizens, then the character of the citizenry becomes important. As Aristotle pointed out, a republic requires the exercise of the very virtues necessary for its existence and survival. And so, we follow the culture wars closely.

Does this mean I want to lock up, ban, or otherwise hassle folks whose culutral preferences and preferred ways of being and doing differ from my own? No, but it does mean that such modes as appear likely to impede the exercise of the republican virtues are a matter of concern, and prudence suggests we make sure they do not become normative. They can and should be tolerated where they appear, but cannot gain dominance or even parity, without changing the character of the nation.

To which you replied:
re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

See my 36 and my reply to FBV. Then seriously ask yourself, if you are a "socon" then do you want the people who wrote this article speaking for you?

I used the word socon to distinguish from people like you. If there is some other lable that is better so be it.

Wing nut,
Theocon,
Ronulan,
Bircher

what do you want?

Now, if you're not lumping things together, I'd like an explanation of what it is you think you're doing, because you're not doing it very well.

151 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:52:14pm

re: #138 Ben Hur

Islam is a religion, political system and a cultural system.

I'm going to have to disagree, and I'm not going to be able to stick around to see the argument...but, I think it got its start strictly as a political system. I think it's basis is much different than the other major religions which are mostly based around mysticism and the newer religions, which I would argue, are based on monetary scams.

152 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:52:23pm

re: #102 Ben Hur

I apologize.

Stepping away for a few.

Thanks, and I understand this is an emotional topic.

153 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:52:47pm

re: #151 RogueOne

sorry, btw, if I just offended someones religion.

154 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:53:24pm

re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote

"However, as anther distinction, there are relatively few Zionists who are into Kahane - certainly in comparison to the legions of people who believe BEck, Rush, Palin and drivel like this thread is supposed to be about."

Exactly - you hold no unsavory positions or views held by unsavory folk, but anyone to your right is in danger of keeping bad company. All is clear.

155 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:53:32pm

re: #149 Honorary Yooper

Then post the links to the real news, not a shitsite like TPM. TPM filters what has already gone through a filter.

How lazy can you be? The info is in the story, including all the links you asked for.

Sorry, until Charles puts TPM on a ban list, I guess you can't decree links from it are unwelcome.

156 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:53:39pm

re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes and I am happily Zionist too and even religious. However, that does not mean I want to tear down American values and strip innocent people of their rights.

No, we just plot to take over the world with our mind-control Zionist Hair RaysTM.

/

157 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:53:44pm

later folks

158 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:54:13pm

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

I really think you need to re-read what was written then let me move the goalposts again.

Fixed that for you.

Ah yes the tactic of calling what is written a name so as to avoid thinking about it...

I expected better from you.

159 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:54:29pm

The real need here is not a ban on Muslims in the service, but a ban on anyone who expresses sympathy with the enemy in wartime and who even tries to make friendly contact with that enemy.
In fact, there is such a ban, but it seems not to have been applied in the case of Maj Hasan. We need to find out why it wasn't.
I really suspect that higher-ups assumed a kind of Corporal Klinger farce by Hasan, that he was faking jihad sympathy as a way of getting out of the service. If so, they were disastrously and tragically mistaken and they should be held to account for it.

160 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:54:49pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

"However, as anther distinction, there are relatively few Zionists who are into Kahane - certainly in comparison to the legions of people who believe BEck, Rush, Palin and drivel like this thread is supposed to be about."

Exactly - you hold no unsavory positions or views held by unsavory folk, but anyone to your right is in danger of keeping bad company. All is clear.

Anyone to Ludwigs right is a "danger," period.

161 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:54:55pm

re: #156 Alouette

No, we just plot to take over the world with our mind-control Zionist Hair RaysTM.

/

You know it! I love being a zioniist overlord!

162 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:55:07pm

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Ah yes the tactic of calling what is written a name so as to avoid thinking about it...

I expected better from you.

If i'm lumped in with birchers, wingnuts, theocons and the like, and clearly I'm in danger of that, how then are you able to avoid the kahanist danger?

163 armylaw  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:55:26pm

re: #138 Ben Hur

Bull. "Islam" is not monolithic.

164 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:55:38pm

re: #154 Guanxi88


Exactly - you hold no unsavory positions or views held by unsavory folk, but anyone to your right is in danger of keeping bad company. All is clear.

Where the hell do you get that from? You are seriously tripping today.

165 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:55:42pm

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Ah yes the tactic of calling what is written a name so as to avoid thinking about it...

I expected better from you.

No you didn't. You've been calling him out for beliefs that mirror those of people you fear.

166 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:57:09pm

re: #164 LudwigVanQuixote

Where the hell do you get that from? You are seriously tripping today.

I get it from your ability to distinguish (your) zionism from Kahanism, but your inability to see that religiously-motivated bigotry and ethnic hatred do not exhaust or explain the possibilities of social conservatism.

167 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:57:14pm

re: #159 Shiplord Kirel

The real need here is not a ban on Muslims in the service, but a ban on anyone who expresses sympathy with the enemy in wartime and who even tries to make friendly contact with that enemy.
In fact, there is such a ban, but it seems not to have been applied in the case of Maj Hasan. We need to find out why it wasn't.
I really suspect that higher-ups assumed a kind of Corporal Klinger farce by Hasan, that he was faking jihad sympathy as a way of getting out of the service. If so, they were disastrously and tragically mistaken and they should be held to account for it.

What? Well, if it was a Catholic pretending to be going "jehadi" on everyone, then it would be a Corporal Klinger moment. This was a MUSLIM getting all "jehadi" like... really big difference.

168 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:57:35pm

re: #164 LudwigVanQuixote

Where the hell do you get that from? You are seriously tripping today.

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

If you live in a world of fear - and let's face it, the essence of being a socon is fear, then what would you expect?

Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Articles like this are exhibit A.

169 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:58:28pm

re: #164 LudwigVanQuixote

Where the hell do you get that from? You are seriously tripping today.

"Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid."

170 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:59:11pm

re: #162 Guanxi88

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Anyone to Ludwigs right is a "danger," period.

Look guys, this is getting insipid.

If you do not think that all Muslim Americans should be stripped of their rights, then why are you dumping on me for pointing out how despicable and anti-American it is to think that way? Why are you dumping on me for stating the obvious truth that many on the right do think that way? Why can't you accept that I am talking about them?

At this point you are only being obnoxious.

171 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:59:46pm

re: #163 armylaw

Bull. "Islam" is not monolithic.

Hence the 3 parts.

172 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 1:59:50pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

But, they all have the same Koran. Not every one of them follow every precept in it, but they are free to at any time.

The Koran is not the Master Control Program from Tron. These are people, from many cultures, all over the world.

173 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:06pm

re: #138 Ben Hur

Islam is a religion, political system and a cultural system.

The Queen of England is Queen by what right?

174 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:20pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Look guys, this is getting insipid.

If you do not think that all Muslim Americans should be stripped of their rights, then why are you dumping on me for pointing out how despicable and anti-American it is to think that way? Why are you dumping on me for stating the obvious truth that many on the right do think that way? Why can't you accept that I am talking about them?

At this point you are only being obnoxious.

Ok, a yes or no, is everyone to your right a danger?

175 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:22pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Look guys, this is getting insipid.

If you do not think that all Muslim Americans should be stripped of their rights, then why are you dumping on me for pointing out how despicable and anti-American it is to think that way? Why are you dumping on me for stating the obvious truth that many on the right do think that way? Why can't you accept that I am talking about them?

At this point you are only being obnoxious.

You jumped from a despicable posting on a blog that also featured a counter-point to a broader point about social conservatism in particular, and the American right in general. No one here made you do that.

176 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:26pm

re: #165 Guanxi88

And should I clarify that's not what I believe, then another strawman gets trotted out.

Tell you what, Ludwig...here's what I- a miserable, mewling socon- wrote on Fort Hood so far.

While I find what the AFA said about banning muslims deplorable, I think the MSM giving Hasan a get-out-of-massacre-free card because of PTSD-cooties a much more vile and insidous practice.

177 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:41pm

Bryan Fischer appears unaware that there are many Muslims who guard and fight against Islamists.

178 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:00:55pm

re: #173 Thanos

The Queen of England is Queen by what right?

She's a descendant of David?

179 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:01:01pm

re: #169 Guanxi88

Do you deny this is the case or the motivation of those who would ban all Muslims from the military? Do you deny that this sort of crap is widespread in the American right?

Do you deny the Earth is round too?

What is wrong with you?

180 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:01:56pm

OT: Plouffe just admitted that the Obama campaign was the source for the leaked info on Edwards' haircut.
No surprise to me that the Obama campaign ran its own series of dirty tricks, but interesting to finally have some confirmation:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

That was not, exactly, the whole truth. Indeed, Obama's campaign had a particularly capable opposition research shop, a source of tips to many reporters, not all of them on policy. And Plouffe, in passing, outs the campaign as the source of a brief item I did in April 2007 off an Edwards campaign expenditure — probably driving as much traffic, chatter and grief as anything that short I've ever written.

"We did much less of this [opposition research] than other campaigns did," Plouffe writes a bit self-servingly, "but there were times we indulged — it was our researchers who found John Edwards's infamous $400 hair cut expenditures."

It's maddening when people assume political reporting is driven by opposition research when you've actually dug up something yourself, but in this case, I'm in no position to contradict Plouffe's account.

It's also worth noting, when the pianos start falling on Mitt Romney, that a top Obama researcher, Shauna Daly, is now the DNC's research chief.

181 boyo  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:01:59pm

re: #172 WindUpBird

The Koran is not the Master Control Program from Tron. These are people, from many cultures, all over the world.

a thinking person would know this,its easier to spout off about a boogeyman..

182 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:02:52pm

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

Ok, a yes or no, is everyone to your right a danger?

Of course not. Now Walter, the simple fact that you think that was an intelligent post or some sort of gotcha makes you pretty stupid.

183 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #179 LudwigVanQuixote

[...]

Do you deny the Earth is round too?


I deny that the Earth is round.


Earth is Not Round

184 Girth  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:04:28pm

re: #172 WindUpBird

The Koran is not the Master Control Program from Tron. These are people, from many cultures, all over the world.

End of Line

185 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:05:03pm

re: #175 Guanxi88

You jumped from a despicable posting on a blog that also featured a counter-point to a broader point about social conservatism in particular, and the American right in general. No one here made you do that.

FWIW, i didn't see LVQ do that at all-- he's condemning a certain strain on the right, one which unfortunately is dominant within the party machinery and strategy at the moment (so it seems). He's gone to great lengths to be clear he's not talking about all of conservatism or all of the right or any of you.

186 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:05:11pm

Why so revisionist?

187 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:05:24pm

We ARE however, like it or not, in a war with radical Islam.
Radical Islamists who occupy positions from which they can do great harm should definitely be watched very carefully and excluded from the military if they exhibit treasonous or other high risk behaviour.
It is long past time for moderate loyal Muslims to stand up and disassociate themselves from their Islamofascist co-religionists.

188 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:05:24pm

re: #179 LudwigVanQuixote

Do you deny this is the case or the motivation of those who would ban all Muslims from the military? Do you deny that this sort of crap is widespread in the American right?

Do you deny the Earth is round too?

What is wrong with you?

1) I deny that the strawman of gun-toting, bible clutching Aryans at the helm of the party represents even an acid-inflected version of the American Right.

2) i don't deny that these folk are bigots.

3) I DO deny that this is widespread on the Right.

4) The Earth is still round, although I notice a disturbing rightward tilt that bodes ill for the future of mankind.

5) I am sick to death of listening to you sling accusations that you assure us do not mean exactly what they mean. I am sick to death of being held accountable for the outrages and bigotry of largely marginal figures whose views resemble my own only in the most limited way, and only on points of minor import. And I am sick to death of being accused of bigotry by folk who purport to be so terribly upset by unpleasantness.

189 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:05:45pm

re: #166 Guanxi88

I get it from your ability to distinguish (your) zionism from Kahanism, but your inability to see that religiously-motivated bigotry and ethnic hatred do not exhaust or explain the possibilities of social conservatism.

I believe that social conservatives also tend to have strong feelings about how other people enjoy themselves, and generally always seem to want to put a stop to that sort of thing.

Really, I don't see why anyone would want to defend social conservatism. I see no good in it at all.

190 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:06:21pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

The American left has always been the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

191 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:06:26pm

re: #189 Jimmah

Congratulations!

(whatever your name is)

192 langdonhill  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:06:46pm

I am curious. Is it appropriate to label a "massacre" "living proof" of something? Just sayin'...

193 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:07:11pm

re: #190 filetandrelease

The American left has always been the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

Does that make you feel better now?

The only difference is that teh Left fears different things.

194 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:07:41pm

re: #185 iceweasel

FWIW, i didn't see LVQ do that at all-- he's condemning a certain strain on the right, one which unfortunately is dominant within the party machinery and strategy at the moment (so it seems). He's gone to great lengths to be clear he's not talking about all of conservatism or all of the right or any of you.

Thanks Ice, and once again congratulations!

195 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:07:54pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

1) [...]
4) The Earth is still round, although I notice a disturbing rightward tilt that bodes ill for the future of mankind.

[...]

Eeek, please do not spread falsehoods! The Earth is Not Round!

#183

196 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:08:03pm

re: #193 LudwigVanQuixote

Just an illustration of the vacuity of the statement.

197 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:08:07pm

re: #185 iceweasel

FWIW, i didn't see LVQ do that at all-- he's condemning a certain strain on the right, one which unfortunately is dominant within the party machinery and strategy at the moment (so it seems). He's gone to great lengths to be clear he's not talking about all of conservatism or all of the right or any of you.

Exactly. he's not talking about any particular members of the broader group to which he indicates they belong. So, in general we're awful but individually, we're all great guys.

198 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:08:32pm

re: #143 keithgabryelski

Just another typical online quiz.

Take this quiz to find out which Simpsons character you are!
Question 1 - Would you rather be:
1) Bart
2) Lisa
3) Homer
4) Marge
5) Maggie

Your response - (3) Homer.
You're just like Homer because you chose Homer!

199 doubter4444  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:08:46pm

re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks!
I wrote it while all the up-tread arguing was going on.

For the record, I've read your posts and I did not think for a moment that you were lumping in people like Walter or Guanx88 or FBV. (maybe Fenway!... just kidding.)
But you were generalizing as to the unwillingness of most of the right (let's call them the Far Right) to stop and think things through, before spouting nonsense.

I think one can safely generalize about that, I mean look at the nontroversty or faux outrage of the day, it's exactly that - stoking anger and fear at others, and when something really bad does happen, they need to up the ante from the regular rhetoric.
It's become pathetic.
Unfortunately, as the anger swells, so do the appetites for those stoking the fire, and that's what we are seeing now.

200 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:09:05pm

re: #189 Jimmah

I believe that social conservatives also tend to have strong feelings about how other people enjoy themselves, and generally always seem to want to put a stop to that sort of thing.

Really, I don't see why anyone would want to defend social conservatism. I see no good in it at all.

re: #35 Guanxi88

That's a bit of a strawman itself. Look, as one who holds socially conservative views and who indulges a taste in culture, literature, friends, and such that is not necessarily such as one would expect for one with such a view ,let me clarify a bit.

If it is the case that the character of the government is a matter of grave importance to the people who live under its power, and if the government is made up of citizens who are selected by their fellow citizens, then the character of the citizenry becomes important. As Aristotle pointed out, a republic requires the exercise of the very virtues necessary for its existence and survival. And so, we follow the culture wars closely.

Does this mean I want to lock up, ban, or otherwise hassle folks whose culutral preferences and preferred ways of being and doing differ from my own? No, but it does mean that such modes as appear likely to impede the exercise of the republican virtues are a matter of concern, and prudence suggests we make sure they do not become normative. They can and should be tolerated where they appear, but cannot gain dominance or even parity, without changing the character of the nation.

There are sound reasons, consistent with liberty, for social conservatism.

201 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:09:06pm

re: #182 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course not. Now Walter, the simple fact that you think that was an intelligent post or some sort of gotcha makes you pretty stupid.

I don't know about that, you answered it after all. Stupid is as stupid does I guess. Thanks for playing.

Oh my goodness, he called me stupid, and he called Ben an asshole, I wonder who's next. Kind of childlike, cute in a way.

202 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:09:46pm

re: #176 Fenway_Nation

re: #187 Spare O'Lake

We ARE however, like it or not, in a war with radical Islam.
Radical Islamists who occupy positions from which they can do great harm should definitely be watched very carefully and excluded from the military if they exhibit treasonous or other high risk behaviour.

Or not be awarded those positions to begin with. I'll settle for that.

/No, Ludwig, I'm not talking about a comprehensive ban on Muslims serving in the US military- just problem children who exhibited traits like Hasan getting more serious scrutiny. Put the straw down.

203 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:09:47pm

re: #138 Ben Hur

Islam is a religion, political system and a cultural system.

WBC are Christians. FLDS are Christians. Snake handlers are Christians. Think they have a lot in common with DFL-voting Lutherans in Minnesota, or gay-friendly Episcopalians?

The term "system" seems like it's becoming very elastic. Almost like taffy.

204 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:09:54pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

To be fair, I am an asshole.

205 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:10:23pm

re: #204 Ben Hur

To be fair, I am an asshole.

Yeah but I rather like you in general.

206 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:10:27pm

re: #204 Ben Hur

To be fair, I am an asshole.

LOL

207 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:11:12pm

re: #205 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah but I rather like you in general.

And with that, we're all friends again!

208 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:11:13pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

Ok you are right, I do lump you in with the whiny beta part. Do you have anything else to whine about?

209 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:11:44pm

re: #190 filetandrelease

The American left has always been the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

I don't just cling to my notions of supremacy. I mount up and ride it across Middle Earth like it's Shadowfax.

210 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:08pm

re: #203 WindUpBird

WBC are Christians. FLDS are Christians. Snake handlers are Christians. Think they have a lot in common with DFL-voting Lutherans in Minnesota, or gay-friendly Episcopalians?

The term "system" seems like it's becoming very elastic. Almost like taffy.

Different religions. Different cultures. Different histories.

It's nice, but we're not all the same.

Why do think it is you can site an unlimited number of sects in Christianity and not in Islam?

You do realize that Japanese culture is different from Western culture, yes?

There are differences in the world.

211 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:21pm

re: #204 Ben Hur

To be fair, I am an asshole.

True, but Walter is not stupid and the Earth is not round.

Let's play nice folks.

212 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:23pm

re: #191 Ben Hur

Congratulations!

(whatever your name is)

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks Ice, and once again congratulations!

Cheers guys! Iceweasel is in the kitchen making our breakfast - she'll be back in a bit :)

213 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:31pm

re: #209 WindUpBird

I don't just cling to my notions of supremacy. I mount up and ride it across Middle Earth like it's Shadowfax.

Ahh, my favorite horse of all time.

214 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:36pm

re: #200 Guanxi88

There are sound reasons, consistent with liberty, for social conservatism.

Liberty for some, anyway. ;-)

215 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:12:46pm

re: #189 Jimmah

re: #185 iceweasel

Congratulations on your virtual engagement.
Iceweasel, will you be hyphenating your nic?

216 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:13:22pm

re: #212 Jimmah

Cheers guys! Iceweasel is in the kitchen making our breakfast - she'll be back in a bit :)

As is should be.

///

217 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:13:56pm

re: #208 LudwigVanQuixote

Ok you are right, I do lump you in with the whiny beta part. Do you have anything else to whine about?

Stick around.

218 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:03pm

re: #212 Jimmah

Cheers guys! Iceweasel is in the kitchen making our breakfast - she'll be back in a bit :)

Now that does sound lovely. I really am happy for you both.

219 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:25pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

Stick around.

OK that was a good comeback.

220 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:44pm

re: #212 Jimmah


Get a room, you two!

/Oh...wait.

221 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:57pm

re: #189 Jimmah

I believe that social conservatives also tend to have strong feelings about how other people enjoy themselves, and generally always seem to want to put a stop to that sort of thing.

Really, I don't see why anyone would want to defend social conservatism. I see no good in it at all.

By that standard, the food police (such as the Center for Science in the Public Interest) would also be considered social conservatives as they want to control what we consume and remove any joy from that as well. We can also pull in the safety minded nannies (such as Ralph Nader) from the left as social conservatives as well. They'd remove the enjoyment of doing anything even remotely dangerous.

Thus, I guess one can find this definition of social conservatism on the left as well as the right. One is in the bedroom while the other is in the kitchen.

222 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:59pm

re: #210 Ben Hur

Different religions. Different cultures. Different histories.

It's nice, but we're not all the same.

Why do think it is you can site an unlimited number of sects in Christianity and not in Islam?

There are differences in the world.

Would you like some Islamic sects? Here, have a blast.

223 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:14:59pm

Making pop corn

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:15:05pm

re: #9 Ben Hur

Agreed.

Overkill.

(though I'm not ready for the 'the real victims of this attack were Muslims in the military...' just yet.)

Realer than the dead and injured, no. But this is a problem for them, and one they didn't bring on themselves.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:15:48pm

re: #11 webevintage

Maybe we can also have them wear a big scarlet M on their uniform...it worked with Hester Pryne.
//

Well, she didn't shoot anyone.

/

226 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:16:21pm

re: #223 filetandrelease

Carmel corn?

227 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:16:30pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, she didn't shoot anyone.

/

She should have.

228 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:16:45pm

re: #226 Fenway_Nation

Carmel corn?

Coconut butter

229 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:17:06pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

What? Well, if it was a Catholic pretending to be going "jehadi" on everyone, then it would be a Corporal Klinger moment. This was a MUSLIM getting all "jehadi" like... really big difference.

An exact analogy to the fictitious Klinger is not the issue here. It would be easy for a Muslim, even an American born one with a secular background, to fake jihadism if he were desperate to get out of the service. The military has a lot invested in these doctors, and a lot of experience dealing with the ones who want to welch on their contracts. I am not saying that the chain of command would have right to assume that Hasan was faking, but that they possibly allowed that assumption to over-ride any other consideration.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:17:30pm

re: #21 Guanxi88

Nothing there to be alarmed about, and not unusual for a muslim professional.

Out of all the things there WERE to be alarmed about...

231 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:17:34pm

re: #227 bosforus

She should have.

That's the Jerry Bruckheimer version of the Scarlet Letter.

232 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:17:36pm

re: #204 Ben Hur

To be fair, I am an asshole.

You said a mouthful.
(*blech*)

233 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:18:23pm

re: #229 Shiplord Kirel

An exact analogy to the fictitious Klinger is not the issue here. It would be easy for a Muslim, even an American born one with a secular background, to fake jihadism if he were desperate to get out of the service. The military has a lot invested in these doctors, and a lot of experience dealing with the ones who want to welch on their contracts. I am not saying that the chain of command would have right to assume that Hasan was faking, but that they possibly allowed that assumption to over-ride any other consideration.


I call BS. This was PC run amonk. Clear and simple.

234 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:18:38pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, she didn't shoot anyone.

/

You didn't see the trailer for the upcoming remake of The Crucible? Starring Linda Hamilton?

/

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:19:12pm

re: #28 Ben Hur

Fear of the Muslim.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

You don't see it? I do. How do you think the loons make a living?

236 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:19:37pm

Speaking of the joyous union...

I've done some research into the mating rituals of the Gaelic Iceweasel.

Here is a short video of that seduction ritual as secretly recorded on the LGF Quantum superslueth site.


No Scot could resist this dream!

237 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:20:00pm

re: #214 WindUpBird

Liberty for some, anyway. ;-)

Liberty for all; tolerance for the minority. Let's not go making more strawmen.

238 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:20:29pm

re: #139 Decatur Deb
Rats. Forgot to provide Walter's link. Really not up to this speed.
[Link: www.shadowcouncil.org...]

239 transient  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:20:32pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, she didn't shoot anyone.


The A was for Amish, right?
/

240 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #229 Shiplord Kirel

An exact analogy to the fictitious Klinger is not the issue here...

Then why did you bring it up. I was trying to frame my comment around your position, and now you tell me that wasn't.

This was a Muslim acting like a radical Muslim. That in itself should be enough for ANYONE to take notice and take action.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:20:53pm

re: #44 ckb

How about we just ban the ones who say that they are loyal to (Insert Religion Here) first, and America second.

If your loyalty is not with the country, you should not be in the service.

Are we going to apply that standard to all faiths, and ask them?

242 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:21:56pm

re: #239 transient

'A' for 'Avenging Angel' in the Jason Bay re-make.

243 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:22:19pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we going to apply that standard to all faiths, and ask them?

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But, they could lie. Not very foolproof.

244 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:22:30pm

re: #44 ckb

How about we just ban the ones who say that they are loyal to (Insert Religion Here) first, and America second.

If your loyalty is not with the country, you should not be in the service.

Can't we just focus on the ones who go Jihad on us? Why all this PC crap?

245 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:22:50pm

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

Out of all the things there WERE to be alarmed about...

That's what I mean. It's like seeing that somebody clubbed another guy to death with a milkbottle, and wondering with the "KD" on the label stood for "Kills Dead"

246 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:23:23pm

Hmm, lost the quotes in that last post.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:23:57pm

re: #59 Ben Hur

Maybe it's your impeccable timing.

They're not buried yet and it's straight to the effen Christians.

It's a habit of my liberal Jewish friends.

People were all over what liberal leftists would say about this before they even had a chance to get their jaws oiled up. How is this different?

248 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:24:34pm

Our old friend Eric Odom has big plans to help Paulian candidates...
Tea Party Leader Launches PAC To Back Small-Government Candidates

Eric Odom, a conservative online organizer who played a key role in sparking the original Tea Party movement this spring, is unveiling Liberty First PAC. The goal, said Odom in an interview with TPMmuckraker, is to raise $1 million to defeat incumbents who supported health-care reform -- which he called "very dangerous to the fabric of this country" -- and to elect a new crop of lawmakers committed to small-government principles in 2010.

249 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:24:48pm

re: #200 Guanxi88

There are sound reasons, consistent with liberty, for social conservatism.

I honestly don't see how it serves liberty for some so-con fuddy-duddy to be telling other people how to behave in private. That is what social conservatism always seems to boil down to. Put another way , if you find yourself saying "Get your nose out of my personal business pal," chances are you are talking to a social conservative.

250 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:24:58pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

CATCH UP!

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:25:16pm

re: #66 RogueOne

Is it wrong to look at Islam as more of a political theory than a religion?

Yes. That is not to say that there aren't people who treat it as such.

252 Charpete67  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:25:50pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we going to apply that standard to all faiths, and ask them?

I am loyal to my faith first, but would defend my country because the country I am fighting for allows me freedom of religion.

I'm not sure there are many Muslims fighting for my freedom of religion.

253 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:26:51pm

re: #244 filetandrelease

re: #44 ckb

How about we just ban the ones who say that they are loyal to (Insert Religion Here) first, and America second.

If your loyalty is not with the country, you should not be in the service.

Can't we just focus on the ones who go Jihad on us? Why all this PC crap?

There is a weird shadow of this question in the weeks after the southern
states seceded. The US Army did a surreal division of it's officer corps.

254 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:14pm

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. That is not to say that there aren't people who treat it as such.

It is inaccurate to say otherwise.

It is more than a religion.

Calling a a political system does not mean you are comparing it to Nazism by default.

255 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:17pm

I'm late to the thread, so I may not be first to mention- The Nisei troops of WW2, who were Japanese and often had relatives in Manzanar. They served with distinction.

This writer is utterly tone deaf to history. Negligent ignorance.

Wiki excerpt
The unit became the most highly decorated military unit in the history of the United States Armed Forces, including 21 Medal of Honor recipients, earning the nickname “The Purple Heart Battalion”.

256 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:19pm

re: #249 Jimmah


So social conservatives are the ones trying to dictate through judicial fiat what kind of light bulbs I should buy, what kind of car I should drive and what kind of food I'm supposed to eat?

257 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:26pm

re: #249 Jimmah

Put another way , if you find yourself saying "Get your nose out of my personal business pal," chances are you are talking to a social conservative.

Or one of my relatives.

But seriously, social conservatism is not prohibitionism or fuddy-duddyism. That is a caricature . I set out, in short version above, the sound reasons for social conservatism. It may surprise you to know that concern for the culture (and the social environment) is not quite the same thing as worrying about who does what to whom where and with what toys, or who drinks what on the rocks with a splash of ginger ale, or who puts what exactly into his or her pipe and smokes it while playing Pink Floyd.

258 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:47pm

re: #222 WindUpBird

Would you like some Islamic sects? Here, have a blast.

And which are the survivors?

259 Kruk  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:51pm

Is it even legally possible to ban Muslims from serving in the military? I'm not talking about those who have exibited jihadi sympathies or worrying behaviour, but Muslims in general on the basis of "we just can't know". Does the First Ammendment prohibition "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." apply to the military?

Also, if was legally possible, wouldn't it still be a major propaganda coup for those who claim that the US is at war with all Musliims if Muslims in general were considered potential fifth columnists?

260 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:27:52pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

Then why did you bring it up. I was trying to frame my comment around your position, and now you tell me that wasn't.

This was a Muslim acting like a radical Muslim. That in itself should be enough for ANYONE to take notice and take action.

An analogy, especially to pop culture, does not have to be exact. Klinger was a well-known illustration of somebody trying to get out of the military by faking a tendency he did not in fact have. The chain of command should have taken notice, but the bureaucratic mindset does not always work like that. Their problem was retention and protecting their investment, force protection was somebody else's.

261 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:28:17pm

re: #256 Fenway_Nation

So social conservatives are the ones trying to dictate through judicial fiat what kind of light bulbs I should buy, what kind of car I should drive and what kind of food I'm supposed to eat?

Credit where credit due.

262 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:28:49pm

re: #260 Shiplord Kirel

An analogy, especially to pop culture, does not have to be exact. Klinger was a well-known illustration of somebody trying to get out of the military by faking a tendency he did not in fact have. The chain of command should have taken notice, but the bureaucratic mindset does not always work like that. Their problem was retention and protecting their investment, force protection was somebody else's.

I see.

263 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:28:58pm

P.S., I just pooped over to another little corner of the web...

Ice, Jimmah, they are thrilled for your happy engagement.

On the bright side, you have caused them considerable distress because you have reminded them of the fact that they are total web-losers with no chance of human contact of their own.

264 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:29:10pm

re: #257 Guanxi88

Or one of my relatives.

But seriously, social conservatism is not prohibitionism or fuddy-duddyism. That is a caricature . I set out, in short version above, the sound reasons for social conservatism. It may surprise you to know that concern for the culture (and the social environment) is not quite the same thing as worrying about who does what to whom where and with what toys, or who drinks what on the rocks with a splash of ginger ale, or who puts what exactly into his or her pipe and smokes it while playing Pink Floyd.

There's a Ben Hur weed comment in there somewhere.

265 Ben Hur  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:29:34pm

BBL

266 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:30:06pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

P.S., I just pooped over to another little corner of the web...

Ice, Jimmah, they are thrilled for your happy engagement.

On the bright side, you have caused them considerable distress because you have reminded them of the fact that they are total web-losers with no chance of human contact of their own.

And pooped was an intentional misspelling :) I want to give them my love too!

267 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:30:19pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

Our old friend Eric Odom has big plans to help Paulian candidates...
Tea Party Leader Launches PAC To Back Small-Government Candidates

From your link:

Odom pointed to MoveOn.org, which had early success targeting key electoral contests as a model for Liberty First. And he suggested that Tea Partiers had erred dissembled by focusing only on mobilizing grassroots pressure, and not getting actively involved in elections until now

...with a little FTFH added.

268 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:30:27pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

P.S., I just pooped over to another little corner of the web...

Did you clean up after yourself?

269 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:30:44pm

re: #268 Fenway_Nation

Did you clean up after yourself?

See above...

270 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:31:02pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

P.S., I just pooped over to another little corner of the web...

Ice, Jimmah, they are thrilled for your happy engagement.

On the bright side, you have caused them considerable distress because you have reminded them of the fact that they are total web-losers with no chance of human contact of their own.

Shitting on someone else this afternoon too?

271 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:31:35pm

re: #270 Walter L. Newton

Shitting on someone else this afternoon too?

Yes, but even you can agree that these ones deserve it.

272 keithgabryelski  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:31:55pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we going to apply that standard to all faiths, and ask them?

uh, or even our armed forces:

God, Country, Corps -- it's an ordered list.

273 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:32:05pm

re: #267 wrenchwench

I wonder if RS McCain is in on this project as well. RSM and Odom were instrumental in the campaign to lose ny23.

274 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:32:08pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote


Wasn't sure which corner of the web you were referring to, so I didn't know if that was intentional or not.

275 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:32:44pm

re: #271 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, but even you can agree that these ones deserve it.

I can't agree if I don't know who are you talking about. I don't visit stalker sites, anti-this anti-that blogs, you know, those kinds of places.

Who?

276 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:32:54pm

re: #274 Fenway_Nation

Wasn't sure which corner of the web you were referring to, so I didn't know if that was intentional or not.

fair enough... I mean the sort of corner where people are nasty enough to wish a new couple ill will...

277 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #187 Spare O'Lake

We ARE however, like it or not, in a war with radical Islam.
Radical Islamists who occupy positions from which they can do great harm should definitely be watched very carefully and excluded from the military if they exhibit treasonous or other high risk behaviour.
It is long past time for moderate loyal Muslims to stand up and disassociate themselves from their Islamofascist co-religionists.

Tell me how a moderate loyal Muslim can possibly stand up and disassociate MORE than by joining the U.S. Army?

278 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:34:15pm

re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist

Tell me how a moderate loyal Muslim can possibly stand up and disassociate MORE than by joining the U.S. Army?

Hasan.

279 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:34:20pm

re: #276 LudwigVanQuixote

Um...that doesn't exactly narrow it down.

280 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:34:26pm

re: #275 Walter L. Newton

C'mon? Where is the central collection place where you have truly hateful folks who read here endlessly and snark endlessly about the people here?

281 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:34:33pm

re: #259 Kruk

Is it even legally possible to ban Muslims from serving in the military? I'm not talking about those who have exibited jihadi sympathies or worrying behaviour, but Muslims in general on the basis of "we just can't know". Does the First Ammendment prohibition "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." apply to the military?

Also, if was legally possible, wouldn't it still be a major propaganda coup for those who claim that the US is at war with all Musliims if Muslims in general were considered potential fifth columnists?

You are correct. Attempting to ban someone from joining the military on the basis of their religion is as illegal as it is ludicrous.

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:35:13pm

re: #210 Ben Hur

Different religions. Different cultures. Different histories.

It's nice, but we're not all the same.

Why do think it is you can site an unlimited number of sects in Christianity and not in Islam?

You do realize that Japanese culture is different from Western culture, yes?

There are differences in the world.

You think Islam doesn't have sectarian subdivides and regional variations?

283 doubter4444  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:35:19pm

re: #197 Guanxi88

Exactly. he's not talking about any particular members of the broader group to which he indicates they belong. So, in general we're awful but individually, we're all great guys.

That right there is one of the fundamentals of our existence.

Isn't that why you reelect your congress person?
Why it's easier to hate a group, or a type rather than a person?
Why there's a firing squad, rather than an executioner?
Why mobs do things that the individuals in it would never do?

284 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:35:37pm

re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist

Tell me how a moderate loyal Muslim can possibly stand up and disassociate MORE than by joining the U.S. Army?

Loads of people join the Army for the benefits, in this case, a free ticked to a medical profession.

285 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:35:51pm

Attn: Fox News supporters...
Judge Andrew Napolitano on Alex Jones Tv 1/2:The Government Doesn't Care About YOU!!

286 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:36:03pm

re: #221 Honorary Yooper

By that standard, the food police (such as the Center for Science in the Public Interest) would also be considered social conservatives as they want to control what we consume and remove any joy from that as well. We can also pull in the safety minded nannies (such as Ralph Nader) from the left as social conservatives as well. They'd remove the enjoyment of doing anything even remotely dangerous.

Thus, I guess one can find this definition of social conservatism on the left as well as the right. One is in the bedroom while the other is in the kitchen.

Well, the progressive left are supposedly all about regulation - they say that, so it's no contradiction for them when they get all regulatey. But just what are social conservatives doing hovering around other people's bedrooms? That's the real question here.

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:36:36pm

re: #222 WindUpBird

Would you like some Islamic sects? Here, have a blast.

And then there's the Druze.

288 The Hoopster  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:37:14pm

re: #268 Fenway_Nation

Did you clean up after yourself?

Why? Just flush.. It's the same people that got flushed from here.
/Good Afternoon Lizards

289 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:38:04pm

re: #258 Ben Hur

And which are the survivors?

No idea, I'm not an expert. My point was, and still is, pretty simple. That they're not monolithic.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:38:34pm

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But, they could lie. Not very foolproof.

Can Baptists, say, seriously say that country is more important to them than Christianity?

291 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:39:18pm

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

C'mon? Where is the central collection place where you have truly hateful folks who read here endlessly and snark endlessly about the people here?

I honestly don't know, and I really don't pay attention to the names of those places. I only asked because it seemed like others knew what you were talking about. It was only a curious question on my part. I wouldn't go there if you told me the name, and I would probably forget the name in an hour.

I really don't play juvenile games of reading or responding to any of those kinds of people, wouldn't waste my time.

And I actually find it almost a bit unstable that anyone would find any entertainment value in looking at those blogs.

I was just asking.

292 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:39:38pm

Checking out now. I need a nice quiet private thread with a boob pun
filament.

293 Winston Smith, Fox News Moderator  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:40:21pm

re: #233 filetandrelease

I call BS. This was PC run amonk. Clear and simple.

That is simple but it looks like just an assumption filtered through your own pre-dispositions. I was in military service for 30 years. In my experience, people bitched a lot about PC but it was not as prevalent as many want to believe. In particular, it is very hard for me to believe that a recently enlisted private or a new butter-bar, Muslim or otherwise, could have gotten a pass on the kind of crap Hasan did.
I am not as certain as you are about this, since there is a notable absence of fact, but I strongly suspect that it is connected to his status as a military trained doctor who wanted to get out. If so, the possibility that he was not faking should have occurred to the chain of command and, given the danger, they were grossly negligent in not acting on it.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:40:31pm

re: #252 Charpete67

I am loyal to my faith first, but would defend my country because the country I am fighting for allows me freedom of religion.

I'm not sure there are many Muslims fighting for my freedom of religion.

Muslim U.S. military personnel (who don't go completely nutcase jihadi) are, by definition.

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:41:52pm

re: #254 Ben Hur

It is inaccurate to say otherwise.

It is more than a religion.

Calling a a political system does not mean you are comparing it to Nazism by default.

Sure, it's more than a religion. But it's also a religion. And a dessert topping. And a floor wax. Like Judaism.

Saying it's a political system and not a 'real' religion is inadeqate and inaccurate.

296 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:42:16pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Muslim U.S. military personnel (who don't go completely nutcase jihadi) are, by definition.

Thank you. That comment rubbed me the wrong way, too.

297 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:42:24pm

re: #286 Jimmah

Well, the progressive left are supposedly all about regulation - they say that, so it's no contradiction for them when they get all regulatey. But just what are social conservatives doing hovering around other people's bedrooms? That's the real question here.

And those regulations are drawn up by the left supposedly because they know what's best for us 'cause we don't know any better. Again- how is that any better than the picture painted using the broad brush for socons?

298 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:42:33pm

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Can Baptists, say, seriously say that country is more important to them than Christianity?

That was not your question. Most Christian sects do follow the commands of Paul (in Romans 12) to follow the rule of the authority in power, pay taxes and obey the law. In those regards, a Baptist would say that they have total loyalty to the country. There answer would be in within the precepts of their beliefs, not in opposition to them.

299 Charpete67  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:44:27pm

re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist

Muslim U.S. military personnel (who don't go completely nutcase jihadi) are, by definition.

True...I guess I was thinking of our military fighting overseas for their freedom, but I'm not sure I could imagine many Muslim countries fighting for my freedom. I wasn't advocating kicking all Muslim's out of the military.

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:44:56pm

re: #278 Walter L. Newton

Hasan.

Yeah. But how many Muslims in the army got up and went through their day, putting themselves in harm's way for country's sake? What are they supposed to do? Commit seppuku? Wrong culture.

301 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:46:03pm

re: #252 Charpete67

I am loyal to my faith first, but would defend my country because the country I am fighting for allows me freedom of religion.

I'm not sure there are many Muslims fighting for my freedom of religion.

A few thousand muslims out of 3 million soldiers in the US Military. No, statistically there are not many.

Demonizing the other as suspicious and disloyal groupthink drones, it's a game the whole family can play!

302 filetandrelease  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:46:09pm

re: #293 Shiplord Kirel

Well then, he sure fooled them.

303 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:47:02pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, it's more than a religion. But it's also a religion. And a dessert topping. And a floor wax. Like Judaism.

Saying it's a political system and not a 'real' religion is inadeqate and inaccurate.

If you act now, you can get the halal pancake puff pan!

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:47:08pm

re: #284 Bagua

Loads of people join the Army for the benefits, in this case, a free ticked to a medical profession.

So, is that all the Muslims in the U.S. armed forces? Or do we selectively honor everyone else as well, because someone from their subgroup might be a psycho killer?

305 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:47:18pm

re: #215 Spare O'Lake

re: #185 iceweasel

Congratulations on your virtual engagement.
Iceweasel, will you be hyphenating your nic?

ha! hilarious!
Believe it or not, I might hyphenate my real world name. Haven't decided yet.

Jimmah-ski just did the dishes, btw, for all of you gloating about the domesticated weasel in the kitchen. :)

306 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:47:46pm

re: #286 Jimmah

Well, the progressive left are supposedly all about regulation - they say that, so it's no contradiction for them when they get all regulatey. But just what are social conservatives doing hovering around other people's bedrooms? That's the real question here.

As I said, how different are they from the left that wants to hang around my kitchen?

Theocons (there's nothing conservative about them) are also all about regulation. They're just as much about regulation as the left! And, yes, it is a contradiction for the left as well. They tell eveyone to stay out of their bedrooms while regulating the kitchen. The theocons want to regulate the bedroom while telling everyone to get out of their kitchen. How are they different? They are not. They are flip sides of the same hypocritical regulatory coin. A pox on both their houses.

307 Charpete67  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:49:18pm

re: #301 WindUpBird

A few thousand muslims out of 3 million soldiers in the US Military. No, statistically there are not many.

Demonizing the other as suspicious and disloyal groupthink drones, it's a game the whole family can play!

not what I meant to say...although my comment came across that way, it was not meant that way.

308 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:49:31pm

re: #306 Honorary Yooper

As I said, how different are they from the left that wants to hang around my kitchen?

Are you talking about the FDA?

309 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:49:31pm

re: #305 iceweasel

Finally a reason to post this song!
Congrats, you two!
Dean Martin: Memories Are Made Of This

310 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:50:07pm

re: #305 iceweasel

ha! hilarious!
Believe it or not, I might hyphenate my real world name. Haven't decided yet.

Jimmah-ski just did the dishes, btw, for all of you gloating about the domesticated weasel in the kitchen. :)

This is getting sloppy-sugary-yucky - congrats.

311 The Hoopster  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:50:20pm

re: #305 iceweasel

ha! hilarious!
Believe it or not, I might hyphenate my real world name. Haven't decided yet.

Jimmah-ski just did the dishes, btw, for all of you gloating about the domesticated weasel in the kitchen. :)

Congrads on the engagement.
May you both enjoy a happy and fulfilling lifetime together...

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:50:39pm

Gotta run. New Omega class to whip into shape.

313 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:51:00pm

re: #308 WindUpBird

Are you talking about the FDA?

No, I'm talking about people like the Center for Science (not) in the Public (private) Interest, Ralph Nader, and a slew of other groups that like to take the fun out of food, driving, anything remotely dangerous.

314 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:51:10pm

re: #55 iceweasel

Shouldn't you be having sex or something?
/

315 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:51:28pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

P.S., I just pooped over to another little corner of the web...

Ice, Jimmah, they are thrilled for your happy engagement.

On the bright side, you have caused them considerable distress because you have reminded them of the fact that they are total web-losers with no chance of human contact of their own.

Oh yes, Ludwig - definitely. It seems we left a lot of people upset ;-)



This is the beat that my heart skipped when we first met
Now that I`ve heard it, it leaves me with a kind of regret
No disrespect
We just left a lot of people upset
And what we had wasn`t really what we`d come to expect
316 bosforus  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shouldn't you be having sex or something?
/

You're so romantic, FBV.

317 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:51:37pm

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

Gotta run. New Omega class to whip into shape.

Please tell me that is a B5 reference!

318 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:52:28pm

re: #316 bosforus

You're so romantic, FBV.

Hey! I said "or something".

319 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:53:45pm

ooh! Space!->->->->

320 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:54:04pm

re: #307 Charpete67

not what I meant to say...although my comment came across that way, it was not meant that way.

ok, fair enough. To your statement about muslim countries fighting for our freedom... will, let's just say there's a big huge chilly landmass where they drink a lot of potato spirits who probably wouldn't fight for our freedom either. ;-)

321 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:54:28pm

re: #236 Bagua

Speaking of the joyous union...

I've done some research into the mating rituals of the Gaelic Iceweasel.

Here is a short video of that seduction ritual as secretly recorded on the LGF Quantum superslueth site.



No Scot could resist this dream!

You're killing me here! It's like you were there...

322 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:55:44pm

re: #314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shouldn't you be having sex or something?
/

Where do you think we've been?
///

323 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:57:42pm

re: #313 Honorary Yooper

No, I'm talking about people like the Center for Science (not) in the Public (private) Interest, Ralph Nader, and a slew of other groups that like to take the fun out of food, driving, anything remotely dangerous.

Nader? I barely knew her!

Seriously, I think Nader gave the Corvair a bad rap, but there's a lot of standard government-mandated safety gear in cars that I, as a total petrolhead, am quite happy with. I am a liberal who doesn't forsee the fun being taken out of driving anytime soon. You can still walk onto a lot and drive off in a brand new 2000 lb. 190hp street legal go-kart, after all.

324 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:59:49pm

re: #322 iceweasel

Too much is rarely enough...

re: #315 Jimmah

Hey you have to follow your heart. I really am happy for both of you.

325 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:00:48pm

re: #309 bosforus

re: #311 HoosierHoops

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

This is getting sloppy-sugary-yucky - congrats.

Thanks!
Walter-- yeah, I know. We'll get a lid on it soon-ish. A return to the usual state of snappish snark will no doubt be imminent. (btw, now you know why i wasn't able to read the health care legislation the last couple of weeks.)

PS {{{LVQ} } }

326 Charpete67  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:01:22pm

re: #320 WindUpBird

ok, fair enough. To your statement about muslim countries fighting for our freedom... will, let's just say there's a big huge chilly landmass where they drink a lot of potato spirits who probably wouldn't fight for our freedom either. ;-)

hell...you could say that about half the countries in Europe... :)

I would argue that the people of most countries (if given a choice) would fight on behalf of freedom vs oppression...even the cold ones...I'm not sure you could say that about most of the Islamic countries...just my opinion...maybe I've seen to many videos of the American/Israeli flag being burned on TV.

327 Boyo  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:01:39pm

A fist bump,A pound,A terrorist fist jab go out to the new couple :)

328 rurality  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:02:42pm

re: #190 filetandrelease

you seem to have a swat the left, reflexive tick whenever the right is criticized. I think standing up for civil rights, women's rights, farm worker's rights, is rather heroic. Can you give me one instance of the right fighting a social injustice, or taking on corporations or holding Pentagon accountable? The left has too much static, differing views to be called sycophantic. I'd say Tom Delay was the embodiment of the sycophantic syndrome that has warped the right. And the
"taxes, Accorn" ringing in the ears that drowns out reason.

329 Merryweather  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:03:27pm

That Niemoller quote the the wingnuts like to whip out whenever they feel Obama and liberals are picking on them (i.e all the time) is for once, highly appropriate here. If these people had their way, it would not stop there. After banning Muslims from the military, then kick them out the country. Then they'd decide that'd be a guaranteed way to keep teh scary evil gheys away from their innocent children, and kick them out too, and so it'd go on.

What also seems to have escaped these idiots is that not only does their bigoted, hyper-paranoid nonsense fly in the face of the Constitution and everything America stands for, but they're reacting exactly as Al-Qaeda wants them to. For all their tough talk, it always seems to be the far-righties and neocons that are the first to give into fear.

330 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:03:43pm

re: #325 iceweasel

re: #311 HoosierHoops

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

Thanks!
Walter-- yeah, I know. We'll get a lid on it soon-ish. A return to the usual state of snappish snark will no doubt be imminent. (btw, now you know why i wasn't able to read the health care legislation the last couple of weeks.)

PS {{{LVQ} } }

Whoa... he can last I guess.

331 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:04:17pm

re: #328 rurality

you seem to have a swat the left, reflexive tick whenever the right is criticized. I think standing up for civil rights, women's rights, farm worker's rights, is rather heroic. Can you give me one instance of the right fighting a social injustice, or taking on corporations or holding Pentagon accountable? The left has too much static, differing views to be called sycophantic. I'd say Tom Delay was the embodiment of the sycophantic syndrome that has warped the right. And the
"taxes, Accorn" ringing in the ears that drowns out reason.

Yea, civil right in the 60's, if you forgot.

332 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:07:46pm

re: #325 iceweasel

re: #311 HoosierHoops

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

Thanks!
Walter-- yeah, I know. We'll get a lid on it soon-ish. A return to the usual state of snappish snark will no doubt be imminent. (btw, now you know why i wasn't able to read the health care legislation the last couple of weeks.)

PS {{{LVQ} } }

I guess up ding takes on a whole new meaning now?

333 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:11:33pm

re: #321 iceweasel

You're killing me here! It's like you were there...

I know, Quantum Mechanics is spooky...

the superslueth picked you up in Schiphol and then scanned the collective unconscious mind known as "youtube" for the best fit.

It's often cunningly accurate.

334 Jimmah  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:12:10pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

This is getting sloppy-sugary-yucky - congrats.

Thanks Walter. But sloppy-sugary-yucky? Us? Never! ;-)

335 Merryweather  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:19:51pm

re: #321 iceweasel

re: #334 Jimmah

Bit late to the party on this one - belated congrats and best wishes to you two.

336 Ministry of Fairness and Balance  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:24:28pm

So there seem to be two spins going on here:

The conservative one is that this fellow was known as a potential threat but Political Correctness stayed their hand and allwed him to continue.

The other is that they knew he was off-base, but assumed he was bucking for a Section 8 and intentionally ignored it because they are too short-handed to let an asset go.

And perhaps one of his intentions in the shooting was to so poison the atmosphere for Moslems in the military that they are either run out of the service or simply decide not to serve in order to avoid the hassle.

In which case, AFA is playing right into this guy's hands.

338 rurality  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:33:31pm

re: #331 Walter L. Newton

I know these were issues in the 60's, but it's the activity of the left in the 60's that seem to have forever tainted the word 'liberal' or 'left', and cast the shadow of suspicion that hangs over all Democrats today. The anachronistic term "Hippie" is about as scathing as any term used here and it is meaningless, trite, but keeps the culture anger alive.

339 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:33:53pm

re: #333 Bagua

I know, Quantum Mechanics is spooky...

the superslueth picked you up in Schiphol and then scanned the collective unconscious mind known as "youtube" for the best fit.

It's often cunningly accurate.

Apparently so! Schiphol really was excellent. highly recommend for anyone stuck with a long layover or trying to save money on flights.

re: #335 Merryweather

Thanks! I think Jimmah and I need to recaption this song and make it about the Love Blog:

340 Ministry of Fairness and Balance  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:34:12pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

Boyz 'n' The Hood...

341 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:38:54pm

re: #336 ralphieboy

So there seem to be two spins going on here:

The conservative one is that this fellow was known as a potential threat but Political Correctness stayed their hand and allwed him to continue.


That spin makes no sense to me. Apparently it's everywhere on the right. And I see the fever swamps of the right wasted no time in pushing POVs like that of the AFA, such as the vile Debbie Schlussel:

Schlussel: Think of Hasan "whenever you hear about how Muslims serve their country in the U.S. military."

Apparently all the usual suspects are at all: Malkin, Rush, Fox, and here's some bonus from Mark Steyn:

On the November 6 edition of Rush Limbaugh's radio show, guest host Mark Steyn said: "You think about the next time you see some behavior that's suspicious -- guys praying, they're doing goofy things, they're talking about Saddam Hussein, all the things that the flying imams did. And you think to yourself, 'Do I call Homeland Security? No, I'm going to be tied up in sensitivity-training hell for the next six months. Maybe it's better to just forget about it, to ignore it.' And that is becoming the problem now, that we're conditioned to ignore it."
342 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:40:14pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

Meanwhile, in our most interesting state...

The priest followed several cars into the Seaport Channelside Apartments on Twiggs Street. He got out of his car and asked Bruce for help.

Instead of offering help, Bruce struck the priest on the head with a tire iron, police said.

He then chased the priest for three blocks to the Madison Avenue and Meridian Avenue, police said, and even called 911 to say that an Arabic man tried to rob him.

Bruce said he was going to take the Arab into custody. When police arrived, Bruce told them the victim was a terrorist.


Horrible!

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:51:46pm

re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote

Please tell me that is a B5 reference!

'Fraid not.

344 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:54:54pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

Um, did you look at the comments about who the attacker is or what he's done?

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:54:59pm

re: #341 iceweasel

Debbie Schlussel is a fruitcake, and I'm surprised she hasn't been sued into much-deserved oblivion by this time.

346 Merryweather  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:56:28pm

re: #341 iceweasel

On the November 6 edition of Rush Limbaugh's radio show, guest host Mark Steyn said: "You think about the next time you see some behavior that's suspicious -- guys praying, they're doing goofy things, they're talking about Saddam Hussein, all the things that the flying imams did.

That could apply to literally anyone from Bush/Cheney to Cindy Sheehan saying Bush was worse than bin Laden to your average neocon columnist in the run up to the Iraq War. What an idiot.

347 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:57:50pm

Jasen Bruce Forgot the link.

348 Ms. MacIceweasel  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 3:58:37pm

re: #346 Merryweather

That could apply to literally anyone from Bush/Cheney to Cindy Sheehan saying Bush was worse than bin Laden to your average neocon columnist in the run up to the Iraq War. What an idiot.

Steyn is an idiot and a bigot who mysteriously has some cred on the right. He's bad news though.

re: #345 SanFranciscoZionist

Debbie Schlussel is a fruitcake, and I'm surprised she hasn't been sued into much-deserved oblivion by this time.

Agreed. She's vicious.

349 amused  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:00:12pm
As soon as Muslims give us a foolproof way to identify their jihadis from their moderates, we’ll go back to allowing them to serve. You tell us who the ones are that we have to worry about, prove you’re right, and Muslims can once again serve.

Hasan pretty much hung a huge blinking jihadi here! neon sign over his head with his presentation in 2007. It was ignored. He was being forced into an unresolvable inner conflict by being assigned to Iraq/Afghanistan and being placed in more direct conflict with fellow Muslims. He reacted just like HAL did in 2001. Weird.

350 Merryweather  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:01:09pm

re: #337 WindUpBird

God that's awful - that's what comes of tarring an entire group with the same brush, as the AFA is doing.

351 Merryweather  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:04:08pm

re: #348 iceweasel

Steyn is an idiot and a bigot who mysteriously has some cred on the right. He's bad news though.

Being an idiot and a bigot is probably what gives him cred with the right.

352 nomra  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:13:34pm

re: #188 Guanxi88


5) I am sick to death of listening to you sling accusations that you assure us do not mean exactly what they mean. I am sick to death of being held accountable for the outrages and bigotry of largely marginal figures whose views resemble my own only in the most limited way, and only on points of minor import. And I am sick to death of being accused of bigotry by folk who purport to be so terribly upset by unpleasantness.

Those are really good points Guanxi88. You can also see how non-Jihadi Muslims would have similar feelings.

353 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:14:06pm

re: #344 carefulnow

Um, did you look at the comments about who the attacker is or what he's done?

I just get an eternal scrolling candycane bar under the news article that says "loading comments..." So, no, I did not. :)

354 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:14:56pm

I advocate vigorously following up on tips and hints that things are amiss with military members, whether they are Christians, Muslims, or Wiccans.

They dropped the ball on Maj. Hasan, I strongly suspect for fear of CAIR.

355 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:17:33pm

re: #353 WindUpBird

Not important. ;)

356 windupbird is in the gravity well  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:17:57pm

re: #347 carefulnow

Jasen Bruce Forgot the link.

Wow, what in the hell? Damn!

/heissonotmytype

357 Bagua  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:23:05pm

re: #354 Cato the Elder

I advocate vigorously following up on tips and hints that things are amiss with military members, whether they are Christians, Muslims, or Wiccans.

They dropped the ball on Maj. Hasan, I strongly suspect for fear of CAIR.

Let's not forget to keep and eye on the Amish and Taoists, who know what they're up to?

358 Ian MacGregor  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:31:40pm

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

Is there a right to serve in the military? I don't believe there is. The armed forces need to maintain order and discipline. I don't see how a general banishment of muslims does anything to increase order and discipline. Such a ban is a stupid idea. No one has a right to serve, but all should consider it an honor to do so.

359 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 4:32:35pm

re: #357 Bagua

Let's not forget to keep and eye on the Amish and Taoists, who know what they're up to?

If Amish or Taoist military members leave a paper and e-trail a mile wide, we should follow up on them, too.

I am not proposing general profiling of Muslims in the military. This guy should have been sidelined and closely observed, not for his religious beliefs, but for his actions and statements.

360 carefulnow  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 5:11:07pm

re: #356 WindUpBird

Adds a little layer to the story, doesn't it? Oh, nurse!

361 sandbox  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 5:19:15pm

Of course banning Muslims from the military is idiotic. However I would hope we can all agree that banning radical islamists from the military should be our policy. The military, by its failure to remove Hasan from its ranks, despite knowledge of his radical beliefs, has done great damage to all the loyal muslims now in the military.

I would carry this point further to our entire country. Known radical islamists who are not US citizens, should be deported. And radical islamists should be denied visa entry. Unfortunately we, as a country, will have to differentiate between the minority of radical and the majority of moderate muslims.

362 Lidane  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:17:42pm

One of my conservative friends said pretty much the same as the AFA just after the shootings. He was ranting about how Muslims should've been barred from the American military in the direct aftermath of 9/11. I didn't bother asking how kicking all the Muslims out of the military when we're at war in predominantly Muslim countries made any damned bit of sense. I figured the entire conversation was a lost cause. =P

363 Lidane  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:20:03pm

Oh, and just to make it clear-- I don't think he speaks for every conservative. He just happens to be a friend who is conservative, and those were his opinions.

364 3kids3dogs  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:24:15pm

re: #81 carefulnow

Actually, the "evidence of homosexuality and lesbian people on programs like HGTV and Animal Planet" has really helped my teenage boys see that gays are just like our (very traditional) family. It's so normal, it's banal.

That's exactly what they see as the problem.

365 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:24:46pm

Do It the same way the Israelis do, as ours is a Volunteer Armed Forces. That is all.

-S-

366 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:53:14pm

re: #4 Honorary Yooper

Are you sure about that?

IIRC I believe the United States Armed Forces have a long history and tradition of excluding people based on ideological and religious beliefs, not to mention sexuality and race for reasons other than mere bigotry.

Not to mention that little Internment Camp thing in WWII... etc. I understand that these facts go against the grain of our idealized version of our society, but sometimes there is no wrong or right... and Morality becomes a choice between two wrongs.

FWIW, An outright ban is a stupid idea, but broadening the list of banned organizations to include merely attending mosques of known enemy sympathizer whackos is probably an OK thing.

367 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 7:20:29pm

re: #317 LudwigVanQuixote

Please tell me that is a B5 reference!

I thought the very same! I gotta couple of Warlocks you may be interested in...:)

368 Ramona  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:12:21pm

re: #17 Big Steve

well it isn't even a slippery slope, it is a yawning chasm toward kicking people out of the country.


Well, that is the end goal isn't it? Don't they chant mindlessly 'America for Americans?"

369 Ramona  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:15:47pm

re: #169 Guanxi88

"Fear the Muslim, fear gays, fear science, fear the government, fear sexuality, fear video games, hell even fear Tinky Winky the "outed" teletubbie. Fear everything that isn't lilly white and holds the same narrow views ... fear fear fear...

Cloak it all in gingoistic language, non-sequitors and strawmen. Call it loving liberty while wanting to take the rights of those they fear.

If I had posted enough comments, I'd upding you.

370 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:37:08pm
371 mikhailtheplumber  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:37:29pm

Maybe we should also put the Muslims in interment camps. Worked wonders with the Japanese.

///

372 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 10, 2009 9:39:37pm
373 filetandrelease  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 7:20:07am

re: #328 rurality

you seem to have a swat the left, reflexive tick whenever the right is criticized. I think standing up for civil rights, women's rights, farm worker's rights, is rather heroic. Can you give me one instance of the right fighting a social injustice, or taking on corporations or holding Pentagon accountable? The left has too much static, differing views to be called sycophantic. I'd say Tom Delay was the embodiment of the sycophantic syndrome that has warped the right. And the
"taxes, Accorn" ringing in the ears that drowns out reason.

The American right has become the fearful mewlings of cowards, sycophants, weak betas who cling to their notions of supremacy, and the home of the stupid.

IMO, this is not criticizing the right, but rather is child like demonizing of a very large percentage of our population. My point is, that if one chooses to throw petty insults that in reality mean nothing, it is easily returned. To stand on a soap box and say I am in the left and we are superior to the right, is just absurd.

The left and right have tangible differences in philosophies and specifics of governance, those can be debated with out resorting to petty insults which demean any point attempted. I learned that in the first grade.

Both left and right also have wackos in the midst.

374 thecommodore  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 8:35:09am

Shame on the American Family Association...PERIOD! One of too many nerve centers of anti-gay loathing and paranoia.

375 mshaw  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 8:40:29am

Personally, I'm all in favor of banning Muslims from the military. As well as Christians, Mormons, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, et al. Having imaginary friends is clear evidence of insanity.

(Yes, my tongue is in my cheek. Only just a bit, though.)

376 Mournie  Wed, Nov 11, 2009 10:54:16am

Well they don't allow gays to serve and it seems that the 'religion of peace' ought to be cause for concern. Without a proper 'vetting' process [which is certainly lacking] the only option is to ban.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

Name:

Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? Account Settings Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

Turn off ads by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day, our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...


► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

Democracy. it's a beautiful thing.

TwitterFacebook
LGF Pages
Recent Pages

jaunte
The Right-Wing Media's Discipline Machine
50 minutes ago
Views: 62 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1

Look At My New Grandbaby!
Mitt Romney Tells Detroit to Drop Dead
1 hour ago
Views: 81 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 2 • Rating: 2

Channeling Confucius
Haitian Invasion Welcomed in Rural America - BBC Video
1 hour, 31 minutes ago
Views: 35 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

MichaelJ
Samsung's Galaxy Note Is the Most Useless Phone I've Used
1 hour, 32 minutes ago
Views: 67 • Comments: 2
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

Randall Gross
GM Moves From Pension Plan to 401(k) - Feb. 15, 2012
1 hour, 36 minutes ago
Views: 41 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1

Randall Gross
Religion Over Rights? Kansas Bill Would Let 'Religious Freedom' Curb Civil Liberties
1 hour, 37 minutes ago
Views: 82 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 3

Randall Gross
Billionaire Tax Dodger Fails from the Grave
1 hour, 47 minutes ago
Views: 68 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 2

Randall Gross
Times Reporter Balks at Grapple by Prosecutors for His CIA Source
1 hour, 50 minutes ago
Views: 58 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 1

researchok
Iran Meddling in Yemen, Says Security Officials
1 hour, 54 minutes ago
Views: 46 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 1

researchok
Newt: For the Record
2 hours, 35 minutes ago
Views: 49 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0

 Frank says:

Consider for a moment any beauty in the name Ralph. -- In an interview with Joan Rivers who had just asked him why he gave his children such odd names, Frank gave the reply above.