This reminds me of Lucy pulling the football from Charlie Brown at the last second...

How do they get to these meetings? Rowboat? Rickshaw? Walk? Bike? Didn't think so.

And the western nations punt the "climate change" ball to the future.

So blah blah blah and blah blah balh. ... AND?

Hey, the climate is not gonna change all by itself ya know.

oh, you mean cripple OUR economies too? uhm, err uhhh...

Is India and China on board yet?

Mr. Obama said. “And when America hosts APEC in a few years, I look forward to seeing you all decked out in flowered shirts and grass skirts because today I am announcing that my home state of Hawaii will be hosting this forum in 2011.”

The troofers will out.

Then we are doomed. Gordon Brown said 50 days, we only had 50 days, until the Copenhagen conference, to put this to bed and do something.

We just missed the chance.

Since there is no enforceable, efficacious deal conceivable on a worldwide scale, imagine my shock at their realistically admitting that in advance.

This is a big step forward, in my view.

/what's with the summit meetings anyway? isn't this what the UN is for?

_{APEC summit meetings are not known for accomplishing much that is substantive. The most memorable moments often involve the photo opportunities, in which leaders wear colorful matching shirts. And often communiqués issued on dismantling trade barriers are undermined by the attending countries almost as soon as they are signed.}

Thanks for wasting money. Idiots.

re: #2 Cannadian Club Akbar

How do they get to these meetings? Rowboat? Rickshaw? Walk? Bike? Didn't think so.

One would think that the man holding Earth in the balance could convince the man who invented the internet to schedule online meetings.

re: #13 solomonpanting

One would think that the man holding Earth in the balance could convince the man who invented the internet to schedule online meetings.

touche!

Burning Tires.

KEN BLOCK GYMKHANA TWO THE INFOMERCIAL

Among the chief barriers to a comprehensive deal in Copenhagen was Congress’s inability to enact climate and energy legislation that sets binding targets on greenhouse gases in the United States. Without such a commitment, other nations are loath to make their own pledges.

If this is so fucking important to all these countries, they should lead by example and put a thumb in the United States eye. Wait, you need OUR money, huh?

re: #7 Cannadian Club Akbar

Is India and China on board yet?

No and hell no, respectively. Why should they go back to the stone age just as the capitalist good times are starting to roll, is what they're thinking. Especially since we've got a 150 years head start on them, emissions-wise.

Sitting back, lighting a cigar (carbon!), sighing (carbon!), farting (methane!), scratching myself, and laughing (excess exhalation! carbon!) at the people who will now fizzle their shizzle about how we have to do something! now! anything! don't matter what! or else we're all gonna die.

I've been mocking København here for months. Anyone who thinks there's anything called "the international community", take note.

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

Among the chief barriers to a comprehensive deal in Copenhagen was Congress’s inability to enact climate and energy legislation that sets binding targets on greenhouse gases in the United States. Without such a commitment, other nations are loath to make their own pledges.

If this is so fucking important to all these countries, they should lead by example and put a thumb in the United States eye. Wait, you need OUR money, huh?

/rien ! et les ânes sont presque tombés pour lui !

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

If this is so fucking important to all these countries, they should lead by example and put a thumb in the United States eye. Wait, you need OUR money, huh?

But...we're the leader of the free world!

re: #18 Cato the Elder

Anyone who thinks there's anything called "the international community", take note.

There's not?

I think we need to close already-efficient factories in the US to offset the carbon made by Indonesian and Brazilian farmers burning millions of acres of rainforest to raise cattle. If only there was an easier solution to this problem, but it is nowhere to be found.

re: #19 brookly red

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I took French in college and remember none of it!!!

re: #22 Liberally Conservative

I think we need to close already-efficient factories in the US to offset the carbon made by Indonesian and Brazilian farmers burning millions of acres of rainforest to raise cattle. If only there was an easier solution to this problem, but it is nowhere to be found.

But, but, if we didn't eat cows that wouldn't happen!!
/

re: #22 Liberally Conservative

I think we need to close already-efficient factories in the US to offset the carbon made by Indonesian and Brazilian farmers burning millions of acres of rainforest to raise cattle. If only there was an easier solution to this problem, but it is nowhere to be found.

what factories in the US???

When we were the only ones expected to take the hit- then everybody wants action.
When it is pointed out that they live on the planet also-and that they should contribute also- well,
nobody wants to pay their share of the rent.

The great thing about Obama being our President, is that he can muster a little more cooperation. They could object to working with Bush 'cause he was an evil, war-mongering, Angela-Merkel-shoulder-rubbing, Katrina-causing, despot. But that dog won't hunt with our current President.
Besides, Obama didn't screw France, Germany, and Russia out of several lucrative business deals by going to war with a dictator who was spending money like a drunken sailor.
But asking them to actually do something that might cause their wallet to lighten; well that just won't do.

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's called responsibility. It's required for leadership. Many other nations enacted, some successfully some not successfully, limits via the Kyoto treaty. Given that the US is the historically most significant human contributor to greenhouse gases, and still the heavyweight on the block wrt AGW, without the US agreeing to restrictions the entire effort falls apart.

re: #18 Cato the Elder

Sitting back, lighting a cigar (carbon!), sighing (carbon!), farting (methane!), scratching myself, and laughing (excess exhalation! carbon!) at the people who will now fizzle their shizzle about how we have to do something! now! anything! don't matter what! or else we're all gonna die.

I've been mocking København here for months. Anyone who thinks there's anything called "the international community", take note.

I'm at 8200 feet. I have a few empty spots for people like you who want to ride out the rising of the seas and the coming global disaster.

Just recently we have been told over and over by all these countries that we have to do something NOW, we are on the verge of the "Point Of No Return" (Phantom of the Opera), "It's Now Or Never" (Elvis Presley - 1960), it's going to be the "Poop Side Down Adventure" oceans away.

But they will hold up the end of the world long enough to make sure the easy money is on board... US.

Bullshit.

Hey! What about all that change? This is just more of the same!

re: #26 swamprat

Angela-Merkel-shoulder-rubbing

Are we getting into this again?

re: #29 PaxAmericana

Hey! What about all that change? This is just more of the same!

so there IS hope after all...

Ludwig is gonna shit...this steps up the timeline and I'm sure he will propose to evacuate Key west immediately

re: #27 freetoken

It's called responsibility. It's required for leadership. Many other nations enacted, some successfully some not successfully, limits via the Kyoto treaty. Given that the US is the historically most significant human contributor to greenhouse gases, and still the heavyweight on the block wrt AGW, without the US agreeing to restrictions the entire effort falls apart.

without the US agreeing to restrictions cough up tons of money... which we don't have right now, considering the economy...

FTFY

re: #27 freetoken

It's called responsibility. It's required for leadership. Many other nations enacted, some successfully some not successfully, limits via the Kyoto treaty. Given that the US is the historically most significant human contributor to greenhouse gases, and still the heavyweight on the block wrt AGW, without the US agreeing to restrictions the entire effort falls apart.

And we won't unless China and India agree to it. And they won't. And we know that. It's our "out."

re: #30 Liberally Conservative

Absolutely unforgivable sin. Or so I'm told.

re: #27 freetoken

It's called responsibility. It's required for leadership. Many other nations enacted, some successfully some not successfully, limits via the Kyoto treaty. Given that the US is the historically most significant human contributor to greenhouse gases, and still the heavyweight on the block wrt AGW, without the US agreeing to restrictions the entire effort falls apart.

good

America killed the planet.

*sob*

Does this say anything about the seriousness of trading carbon credits?

re: #26 swamprat

When we were the only ones expected to take the hit- then everybody wants action.
When it is pointed out that they live on the planet also-and that they should contribute also- well,
nobody wants to pay their share of the rent.[...]

It's the same attitude they had towards the WOT--publicly denouncing our every misstep for the benefit of their proggy polities, while privately praying we'd lose no time making the world come out right.

re: #37 Racer X

America killed the planet.

*sob*

/better dead then red?

the only thing that New Mexico lacks is ocean front...I'm excited about the prospect

re: #33 Walter L. Newton

without the US agreeing to restrictions cough up tons of money... which we don't have right now, considering the economy...

FTFY

You don't understand...this was the Marxists' last ticket to global wealth-redistribution the easy way...scare everybody into believing the end is nigh, then tell them the only way to stop it is give 50% of their money for the next fifty years to Burkina Faso and Burundi.

Methinks the Danes have seen through the bullshit, now that they're on the hook and not just US.

Of course there's an "international community." It's that entity that hated Bush and loves Obama.

re: #38 kilroy

Does this say anything about the seriousness of trading carbon credits?

Hey! we kin re-package them as carbon futures, yeah that's the ticket...

Let's cancel all aid to other countries and sign some treaty. We'll save money. Then they will have something else to bitch about and call the US evil.

re: #42 Cato the Elder

They need a televangelical program...
Oh I forgot; NPR.

I swear I typed in "littlegreenfootballs.com" and not "Hotair.com"... must be this new fangled browser I'm using...

Mr. Obama spoke, instead, of “engaging the Trans-Pacific Partnership countries with the goal of shaping a regional agreement that will have broad-based membership and the high standards worthy of a 21st-century trade agreement.”
That line left many trade envoys already in Singapore scratching their heads:...
White House officials were not much clearer on what Mr. Obama meant when they were pressed on this after the speech.

Did he forget to bring his teleprompter?

See, this is where I think Obama can really shine. IF he puts together a job-building, carbon-lowering program to beef up our alternative energy infrastructure it will go a long way towards solving several problems.

Do it man! Build some Nuke plants (like a hundred). Encourage hybrid vehicle production. Lets get Americans involved! Throw some bailout money at it.

re: #44 brookly red
Does that mean coal is a goodie in my stocking this Xmas?

re: #42 Cato the Elder

You don't understand...this was the Marxists' last ticket to global wealth-redistribution the easy way...scare everybody into believing the end is nigh, then tell them the only way to stop it is give 50% of their money for the next fifty years to Burkina Faso and Burundi.

Methinks the Danes have seen through the bullshit, now that they're on the hook and not just US.

are you calling BO and his extremist cap and trade agenda Marxist?

Let this sea rise up.

Something really did happen with the elections in New Jersey and Virginia. yet they still can't figure out Afganistan.

In all seriousness, Western Europe is more environmentally-responsible in some great ways, such as higher fuel efficiency for their cars, an advanced recycling system for plastics and metals, and European countries have many clean power plants.

And the US is going in that direction as well, and we'll only go there faster once the price of oil goes up as oil supply decreases. I don't understand why the climate-change activists aren't prioritizing making Industrial Revolution-quality factories and power plants in China, India, and Indonesia their priority over us flushing less water when we take a poo.

re: #49 Racer X

See, this is where I think Obama can really shine. IF he puts together a job-building, carbon-lowering program to beef up our alternative energy infrastructure it will go a long way towards solving several problems.

Do it man! Build some Nuke plants (like a hundred). Encourage hybrid vehicle production. Lets get Americans involved! Throw some bailout money at it.

Yucca Mt is being closed for good...billions down the drain...there is no future for electric cars in America...a very few people and their judges are holding the entire population hostage

re: #42 Cato the Elder

You don't understand...this was the Marxists' last ticket to global wealth-redistribution the easy way...scare everybody into believing the end is nigh, then tell them the only way to stop it is give 50% of their money for the next fifty years to Burkina Faso and Burundi.

Methinks the Danes have seen through the bullshit, now that they're on the hook and not just US.

Once again, you confuse and confound me, Cato.

Are you or are you not seeing watermelons?

re: #51 albusteve

are you calling BO and his extremist cap and trade agenda Marxist?

Cap-and-trade you call extremist? Have you looked at the international proposals? Cap-and-trade is passé. The new mantra is the budgetary approach.

Everyone on earth gets an annual, equal carbon budget. Those countries whose citizens - by virtue (sin?) of having a too-high standard of living - exceed the budget pay a per capita fine to the under-budget world.

I'm simplifying, but that's the gist of it.

And it has absolutely zero to do with Obama.

OT: ABC News is reporting that at least one Japanese newspaper is refusing to print the picture of Obama bowing to Emperor Akhito, out of embarrassment for both him and Akhito.

"Kyodo News is running his appropriate and reciprocated nod and shake with the Empress, certainly to show the president as dignified, and not in the form of a first year English teacher trying to impress with Karate Kid-level knowledge of Japanese customs.

"The bow as he performed did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms...The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.

My emphasis.

Butbutbut I thought Obama was the cultured and oh-so-worldly President who was the Master of Diplomacy. Feh. It's Obamateur Hour at the White House.

Dave Angel - Eco Warrior

"Shirley!"

re: #53 Kilroy

Something really did happen with the elections in New Jersey and Virginia. yet they still can't figure out Afganistan.

The only thing to figure out about Afghanistan is that the 100 or so al Qaeda terrorists who still haven't fled to Pakistan are not worth the candle.

re: #57 Cato the Elder

Cap-and-trade you call extremist? Have you looked at the international proposals? Cap-and-trade is passé. The new mantra is the budgetary approach.

Everyone on earth gets an annual, equal carbon budget. Those countries whose citizens - by virtue (sin?) of having a too-high standard of living - exceed the budget pay a per capita fine to the under-budget world.

I'm simplifying, but that's the gist of it.

And it has absolutely zero to do with Obama.

you avoided my question

re: #54 Liberally Conservative

In all seriousness, Western Europe is more environmentally-responsible in some great ways, such as higher fuel efficiency for their cars, an advanced recycling system for plastics and metals, and European countries have many clean power plants.

And the US is going in that direction as well, and we'll only go there faster once the price of oil goes up as oil supply decreases. I don't understand why the climate-change activists aren't prioritizing making Industrial Revolution-quality factories and power plants in China, India, and Indonesia their priority over us flushing less water when we take a poo.

Do you really hata' ask that?

re: #54 Liberally Conservative

In all seriousness, Western Europe is more environmentally-responsible in some great ways, such as higher fuel efficiency for their cars, an advanced recycling system for plastics and metals, and European countries have many clean power plants.

And the US is going in that direction as well, and we'll only go there faster once the price of oil goes up as oil supply decreases. I don't understand why the climate-change activists aren't prioritizing making Industrial Revolution-quality factories and power plants in China, India, and Indonesia their priority over us flushing less water when we take a poo.

/cause it's all about our poo to them... sheesh

re: #57 Cato the Elder

Cap-and-trade you call extremist? Have you looked at the international proposals? Cap-and-trade is passé. The new mantra is the budgetary approach.

Everyone on earth gets an annual, equal carbon budget. Those countries whose citizens - by virtue (sin?) of having a too-high standard of living - exceed the budget pay a per capita fine to the under-budget world.

I'm simplifying, but that's the gist of it.

And it has absolutely zero to do with Obama.

That is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard. Unworkable, and worse than useless if it did work.

Hafta'.

I burned pinto beans tonight... that couldn't have helped...

re: #58 Athens Runaway

An old friend -- an academic with expertise about the Japanese Empire, and in general a supporter of President Obama -- sends me the following note, relating to photographs of President Obama bowing to Emperor Akihito of Japan.

That's actually an email from a Lizard named Tokyobok.

re: #62 MandyManners

Do you really hata' ask that?

I *may* have just wanted to type "poo".

re: #56 MandyManners

Once again, you confuse and confound me, Cato.

Are you or are you not seeing watermelons?

Mandy, you thought you finally had me figured out? Bwahahaha!

I don't get the watermelon ref, though...

re: #60 Cato the Elder

The only thing to figure out about Afghanistan is that the 100 or so al Qaeda terrorists who still haven't fled to Pakistan are not worth the candle.

so you don't think it's worthwhile to insert more troops there?...should we pullout and avoid anymore casualties?

re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I burned pinto beans tonight... that couldn't have helped...

Burn them tonight, burn them tomorrow, no difference.
/

re: #58 Athens Runaway

It's not that he bowed. They are saying he did it badly.
His back bent and he went too low.
So much for Bow-Gate.

re: #72 swamprat

It's not that he bowed. They are saying he did it badly.
His back bent and he went too low.
So much for Bow-Gate.

He should have just given the guy an Ipod.

re: #61 albusteve

you avoided my question

No I didn't. Not if you can draw conclusions.

Cap-and-trade is pure capitalism. What's on the table now is Marxism disguised as ecology. If I can see the difference, so can you.

re: #66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I burned pinto beans tonight... that couldn't have helped...

I burnt the bacon. Now airing out the house before my roommates come home.

re: #69 Cato the Elder

Mandy, you thought you finally had me figured out? Bwahahaha!

I don't get the watermelon ref, though...

Green on the outside. Red on the inside.

From your No. 42: this was the Marxists' last ticket to global wealth-redistribution the easy way.

re: #74 Cato the Elder

No I didn't. Not if you can draw conclusions.

Cap-and-trade is pure capitalism. What's on the table now is Marxism disguised as ecology. If I can see the difference, so can you.

I am so using that.

re: #75 Cato the Elder

I burnt the bacon. Now airing out the house before my roommates come home.

I slap the bacon out yo mouth...

re: #75 Cato the Elder

I burnt the bacon. Now airing out the house before my roommates come home.

Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays?

re: #64 Liberally Conservative

That is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard. Unworkable, and worse than useless if it did work.

Brought to you by the Germans, though I'm not supposed to reveal that.

re: #77 swamprat

I am so using that.

Watermelonism.

re: #72 swamprat

It's not that he bowed. They are saying he did it badly.
His back bent and he went too low.
So much for Bow-Gate.

But we heard so much about he was the Master of Diplomacy. How the "grown-ups" were back in control and how all the world would love him, and by extension, us.

If he can't get basic protocol with one of America's best friends right, why should we assume he can handle Iran or North Korea?

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

I slap the bacon out yo mouth...

you can take the boy out of brooklyn...

It can be done:

Elithis Tower: The World’s First Energy Positive Office Building

For most sustainability-minded architects, a net zero energy building is the holy grail. But Elithis Tower, located in Dijon, France, has surpassed the net zero energy ideal to become the first energy positive office building, meaning it creates more power than it uses. The building, which was designed by Arte Charpentier Architects, also produces six times fewer greenhouse gas emissions than traditional office structures.

re: #84 Racer X

It can be done:

France, French, farts, nothing new?

re: #74 Cato the Elder

No I didn't. Not if you can draw conclusions.

Cap-and-trade is pure capitalism. What's on the table now is Marxism disguised as ecology. If I can see the difference, so can you.

BO is not a Marxist then...okay, I'll remember that

re: #84 Racer X

I wonder how you decide who gets the corner office in that building.

/post-modern architecture sucks

re: #76 MandyManners

Green on the outside. Red on the inside.

From your No. 42: this was the Marxists' last ticket to global wealth-redistribution the easy way.

When did I ever declare myself "green" in the easy, do-nothing-but-feel-good-for-eating-locally, sign-this-internet-petition-and-you'll-be-saved sense?

I'm nothing more, and nothing less, than an old-school curmudgeon with a not-yet-pickled brain, which I use to piss off easy-solutionists at every opportunity.

re: #72 swamprat

It's not that he bowed. They are saying he did it badly.
His back bent and he went too low.
So much for Bow-Gate.

Amateurs.

Who the hell advises this man?

re: #86 albusteve

BO is not a Marxist then...okay, I'll remember that

Do. Because he's not.

re: #88 Cato the Elder

When did I ever declare myself "green" in the easy, do-nothing-but-feel-good-for-eating-locally, sign-this-internet-petition-and-you'll-be-saved sense?

I'm nothing more, and nothing less, than an old-school curmudgeon with a not-yet-pickled brain, which I use to piss off easy-solutionists at every opportunity.

GOSH-DARNIT! I NEVER CALLED YOU THAT.

Read my No. 56 again.

re: #80 Cato the Elder
It's always interesting that few consider the enormous waste of industrial product and world wealth that the Germans have caused over the last century. What was that footprint?

Aargh.

re: #82 Athens Runaway That requires special negotiating skills

re: #92 Kilroy

It's always interesting that few consider the enormous waste of industrial product and world wealth that the Germans have caused over the last century. What was that footprint?

Over and done with. Can we move on?

re: #88 Cato the Elder

When did I ever declare myself "green" in the easy, do-nothing-but-feel-good-for-eating-locally, sign-this-internet-petition-and-you'll-be-saved sense?

I'm nothing more, and nothing less, than an old-school curmudgeon with a not-yet-pickled brain, which I use to piss off easy-solutionists at every opportunity.

do you really believe that by intellectuallizing, expressing your verebal fortitude really makes any difference in the real world?...it may make you look good on a blog but that approach only helps resist solutions to problems...I think you are BOs sock...talk it to death with big words and maybe it will go away

One unfortunate side effect of the current debate over what to do about climate change, is the spread of the meme that China is a conscientious steward of the environment. It isn't so. They're communists, remember, for whom the population is raw material to be driven, experimented on, used up, and wasted at will.

re: #70 albusteve

so you don't think it's worthwhile to insert more troops there?...should we pullout and avoid anymore casualties?

Two separate questions, and I don't want to turn this into an Afghanistan thread.

Suffice it to say you do not yet comprehend me. See here.

re: #96 albusteve

do you really believe that by intellectuallizing, expressing your verebal fortitude really makes any difference in the real world?...it may make you look good on a blog but that approach only helps resist solutions to problems...I think you are BOs sock...talk it to death with big words and maybe it will go away

I don't think "verebal" is a word, and I think you've taken an irrational dislike to me. Sit.

re: #64 Liberally Conservative

That is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard. Unworkable, and worse than useless if it did work.

It would sure make a lot of Swiss banks rich[er], though.

re: #97 The Sanity Inspector

One unfortunate side effect of the current debate over what to do about climate change, is the spread of the meme that China is a conscientious steward of the environment. It isn't so. They're communists, remember, for whom the population is raw material to be driven, experimented on, used up, and wasted at will.

Every year, an estimated 460,000 people die prematurely in China from exposure to air and water pollution, according to a 2007 World Bank study. Death rates from cancer rose 19 percent in cities and 23 percent in rural areas in 2006 over 2005, about 85 per cent involving the digestive system.

Yea. But the United States is the problem.

re: #94 swamprat

I'm not sure I follow.

Family Guy joke just happened...

I know they piss you off sometimes, but check this out...

Peter just said, "Well, this thing is worthless! Like my Palestinian alarm clock."
Cuts to a shot of Peter and Lois asleep... alarm clock says "Allahu Akbar" and explodes.

re: #97 The Sanity Inspector

One unfortunate side effect of the current debate over what to do about climate change, is the spread of the meme that China is a conscientious steward of the environment. It isn't so. They're communists, remember, for whom the population is raw material to be driven, experimented on, used up, and wasted at will.

which is sad because that is exactlly what they said capitalism would do...

Good Evening LGF.
Nothing wrought in the State of Denmark.
Did he dither or did he doo wa diddy?

re: #3 Beller0ph1

And the western nations punt the "climate change" ball to the future.

This is not a case of "the western nations punt the "climate change" ball" it is the Eastern Asian nations who are refusing to join in, not the US.

re: #103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Family Guy joke just happened...

I know they piss you off sometimes, but check this out...

Peter just said, "Well, this thing is worthless! Like my Palestinian alarm clock."
Cuts to a shot of Peter and Lois asleep... alarm clock says "Allahu Akbar" and explodes.

I had one, I couldn't get it to work... damn

re: #98 Cato the Elder

Two separate questions, and I don't want to turn this into an Afghanistan thread.

Suffice it to say you do not yet comprehend me. See here.

very nice...I grok...I don't dislike you as much as that might turn you on but I'm not gonna fall for it...and 'verebal' is a word if I say it is

re: #108 albusteve

very nice...I grok...I don't dislike you as much as that might turn you on but I'm not gonna fall for it...and 'verebal' is a word if I say it is

Of course. A conflation of "verbal" and "cerebral". I'm flattered.

When I said "sit", by the way, that was Latin.

The trouble with these negotiations is that they go off at a tangent to the real solution. We cannot get here from there by belt tightening. We cannot manage by caps and trades, or (what would be less noxious, because there would be less scope for corruption) a straight carbon tax.

We must have green energy, and a lot of it. Wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, tidal, geothermal, whatever. We must have better materials, improved efficiency from buildings, and electric autos for short-haul commutes.

When you're besieged, it's not good enough to put everybody on short rations. You have to break the siege. We have to get to where we can have our energy and have it again tomorrow. That won't work with fossil fuels, and this is evident even to those who have not yet cottoned to the reality of global warming and those, more reasonable, who accept that we are causing it and it's real, but think we can more cheaply ride it out than prevent it.

Whether we can depends very much on how we go about preventing it, and if we try to prevent it by scaling back and doing without, we risk finding that we can neither prevent it nor comfortably ride it out.

re: #102 Athens Runaway

Japan is a friend.
North Korea and Iran are not.
Different technique needed.

Also a bit of humor.

re: #109 Cato the Elder

Of course. A conflation of "verbal" and "cerebral". I'm flattered.

When I said "sit", by the way, that was Latin.

well I admit you got me on the Latinin

re: #111 swamprat

Japan is a friend.
North Korea and Iran are not.
Different technique needed.

Also a bit of humor.

Ah gotcha.

Any "Doctor Who" fans out there? I just watched the first 20ish minutes of the new episode. It's killer.

re: #112 albusteve

well I admit you got me on the Latinin

Gold Plated latinum?

The US House, Senate and Presidency are all at high water marks for getting climate legislation passed.

And they didn't.

Fini.

re: #91 MandyManners

GOSH-DARNIT! I NEVER CALLED YOU THAT.

Read my No. 56 again.

OK. My bad.

Yes, in the sense you mean it, I see watermelons. Plenty of 'em. And in my quite unhumble 'pinion, they have the potential to morph into eco-communists.

I figure that if we put enough money into the space program, we can bug out in the nick of time before the rotting planet becomes utterly uninhabitable.

I'm a very practical person.

re: #113 Athens Runaway

Really? On BBC America?

From 2008, "Voyage of the Damned'? That's what is on my guide. So its good?

re: #104 brookly red

which is sad because that is exactlly what they said capitalism would do...

Capitalism in a democracy is self-checking and -correcting. There's no similar brake on the will of a cabal of dictators.

And this is about the worst possible news.

All of the politicos have the worldwide scientific community screaming at them that action is desperately needed. We are not lying. We are not making this up.

They all speechify and do nothing.

It is tragic and pathetic.

re: #119 prairiefire

From 2008, "Voyage of the Damned'? That's what is on my guide. So its good?

No, it's the new one that aired tonight in the UK, 'waters of mars'. Someone's posting it on youtube. Get it before it's yanked!

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

And this is about the worst possible news.

All of the politicos have the worldwide scientific community screaming at them that action is desperately needed. We are not lying. We are not making this up.

They all speechify and do nothing.

It is tragic and pathetic.

And utterly predictable.

I've been saying for a long time that change will only come when the pressure is on. You cannot motivate a herd in the aggregate (please note the wordplay) to change its ways by predictions of bad things to come. A few coyotes nipping at the heels of the weak causes the herd to shift location, not to become new animals.

Bad things may come, but we (the human grex) will deal with them as they come, or not at all.

Anything else is at best wishful thinking, at worst eco-communism or -fascism.

re: #122 iceweasel

No, it's the new one that aired tonight in the UK, 'waters of mars'. Someone's posting it on youtube. Get it before it's yanked!

By a lawyer Yank!

re: #122 iceweasel

Can't find it. Dr. Who 2009 BBC is what I typed.

re: #125 prairiefire

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Part 5 of 8 hits in about 10-15 minutes.

re: #124 Cato the Elder

By a lawyer Yank!

The Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum in Glasgow has a Dr Who exhibit on right now. :)

[Link: www.glasgowmuseums.com...]

Sepp is Cockney rhyming slang for american, btw. Sepp short for septic tank = yank. (Jimmah tells me he never knew that before, ha)

re: #126 Athens Runaway

Thanks

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

And this is about the worst possible news.

All of the politicos have the worldwide scientific community screaming at them that action is desperately needed. We are not lying. We are not making this up.

They all speechify and do nothing.

It is tragic and pathetic.

I expect that we are in agreement that the Copenhagen meeting was already a farce due to the European nations advance negotiations, all "sound and fury, signifying nothing" in real terms if meaningful reduction is net CO2 reductions. Which I had previously posted about.

This move on the part of the Asian group, representing about 50% of the world economy combined, puts the advance kilbosh on the farce. So even the farce seems unlikely to be agreed this year.

The "two step process" means the first step has effectively died at birth. It would be more honest to admit the failure and move on to a second meeting to try again. But we are dealing with politicians who need to phrase everything in happy Orwellian terms that often mean the opposite of their reality and describe failures as success.

re: #127 iceweasel

The Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum in Glasgow has a Dr Who exhibit on right now. :)

[Link: www.glasgowmuseums.com...]

Sepp is Cockney rhyming slang for american, btw. Sepp short for septic tank = yank. (Jimmah tells me he never knew that before, ha)

This international coming together has got to stop! Why, next thing you know, we'll all be knowing what haggis is!

Can anyone stand here with a straight face and tell me you expected anything substantive and game-changing out of København?

I'll buy you a rum, by rum I will.

re: #130 Cato the Elder

My daughter tried Haggis this summer in Scotland. Said it wasn't great, but not too awful.

re: #132 prairiefire

No. it is not too bad. I've eaten it. It is a high energy food for keeping warm in a cold climate.

re: #129 Bagua

and describe failures as success.

"The economy is getting better because not as many people lost their jobs this month as lost their jobs last month."

re: #84 Racer X

I bookmarked that one.

Yes it can be done. And there is no shortage of no-carbon energy to harvest;

The sun is continuously dumping 120,000 trillion watts on the Earth.

Good night all.

My final word on this:

How can you lower expectations when nothing was hoped for to begin with?

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

Among the chief barriers to a comprehensive deal in Copenhagen was Congress’s inability to enact climate and energy legislation that sets binding targets on greenhouse gases in the United States. Without such a commitment, other nations are loath to make their own pledges.

If this is so fucking important to all these countries, they should lead by example and put a thumb in the United States eye. Wait, you need OUR money, huh?

Actually, the chief barrier of them all is China. Now the world's largest polluter, they aren't willing to sign up for any sort of environmental regulation more stringent than what was available in the late 19th century. And they won't, because it would be too much of an impediment to their economic growth. Plain and simple.

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

And this is about the worst possible news.

All of the politicos have the worldwide scientific community screaming at them that action is desperately needed.

Yeah. Because screaming at people who you want to share your views is such an effective way to secure their support.

Maybe you should move on to calling them "stupid" or "ignorant" or "backwards."

re: #10 Cato the Elder

Since there is no enforceable, efficacious deal conceivable on a worldwide scale, imagine my shock at their realistically admitting that in advance.

This is a big step forward, in my view.

I think Cato summed this up well.

God grief are all these "world leaders" idiots. Does anyone of them have any advisor mentioning that we just came out of a short ice age ca. 1400-1850?

The hubris of man that he can control nature is funny, if it wasn't so pathetic and potentially tragic.

T

re: #139 thefarmer

Many of those world leaders you call "idiots" do indeed have advisors who know quite a bit about the Earth, climate, and the history of such.

Which is exactly why such a conference is necessary.

re: #140 freetoken

Many of those world leaders you call "idiots" do indeed have advisors who know quite a bit about the Earth, climate, and the history of such.

Which is exactly why such a conference is necessary.

Sorry, they can have all the advisors/experts they want, but I strongly suspect this is all about a redistribution of wealth more than anything else. And it's obvious nothing (hopefully) will happen at Copenhagen.

I stand by my statement, it's "idoits"/politcians posturing for their own benefit.

JMHO,
T

re: #110 lostlakehiker

The trouble with these negotiations is that they go off at a tangent to the real solution. We cannot get here from there by belt tightening. We cannot manage by caps and trades, or (what would be less noxious, because there would be less scope for corruption) a straight carbon tax.

We must have green energy, and a lot of it. Wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, tidal, geothermal, whatever. We must have better materials, improved efficiency from buildings, and electric autos for short-haul commutes.

When you're besieged, it's not good enough to put everybody on short rations. You have to break the siege. We have to get to where we can have our energy and have it again tomorrow. That won't work with fossil fuels, and this is evident even to those who have not yet cottoned to the reality of global warming and those, more reasonable, who accept that we are causing it and it's real, but think we can more cheaply ride it out than prevent it.

Whether we can depends very much on how we go about preventing it, and if we try to prevent it by scaling back and doing without, we risk finding that we can neither prevent it nor comfortably ride it out.

On the other hand, there may be much more oil around than thought. Some oil fields seem to be capable of refilling...

re: #101 Cannadian Club Akbar

Every year, an estimated 460,000 people die prematurely in China from exposure to air and water pollution, according to a 2007 World Bank study. Death rates from cancer rose 19 percent in cities and 23 percent in rural areas in 2006 over 2005, about 85 per cent involving the digestive system.

Yea. But the United States is the problem.

The US was the problem and by dint of their high CO2 output, strong economy (despite the current problems) and superior technology are in the best position to actually do something substantive. If the US continually whines about and restricts its activity in solutions because of the less capable countries' failures to meet similar demands to that made of the States, the US is forsaking its position as a global leader.

Yes, I know, the US never asked to become a world leader, in fact never asked to become part of a global community and all the responsibilities that come with that membership, but the now globally based conglomerates that started out in the States and helped build a global economy pretty much dragged you with them. Like it or not, you are part of a community and have a responsibility to it.

Now, as a leader, and if you really want to rub the noses of the Communist countries in their own failures, then accept your role as one and show how an advanced country can use capitalism to 'go green', whether for AGW or smart energy use or some other reason, and still increase the standard of living.

There is money to be made, and if you haven't noticed, both China and India have been following in your footsteps by opening up their economies to Capitalism all because the US is the richest and most influential country in the world. I think if the US shows a bit of ingenuity on the 'green' front, once they see the positive impacts, they'll follow suit whether they sign on to a treaty or not.

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Can anyone stand here with a straight face and tell me you expected anything substantive and game-changing out of København?

I'll buy you a rum, by rum I will.

Expect, no. Hope for, yes.

re: #134 Ojoe

"The economy is getting better because not as many people lost their jobs this month as lost their jobs last month."

Better and worse are relative terms, not absolutes like success and failure.

As in evolution, the ratcheting accumulation of micro-changes (each month is better than the last) eventually builds up and results in macro-change where the label 'success' can be applied.

re: #139 thefarmer

I think Cato summed this up well.

God grief are all these "world leaders" idiots. Does anyone of them have any advisor mentioning that we just came out of a short ice age ca. 1400-1850?

The hubris of man that he can control nature is funny, if it wasn't so pathetic and potentially tragic.

T

The naivety of believing small changes can't build up and have big effects is also pathetic and, I have to say, rather creationistic.

We've already seen how much short term change aerosols in the atmosphere can have on climate (the decrease in global temps from the '40s to the '70s) and how even relatively small volcanic eruptions can do likewise, what change in physics would prevent longer lived forcings from presenting longer lived effects?

Oh, BTW, the time between 1400 and 1850 was hardly an ice-age, and the inadvertent ability to affect climate is hardly controlling it.

re: #141 thefarmer

Sorry, they can have all the advisors/experts they want, but I strongly suspect this is all about a redistribution of wealth more than anything else. And it's obvious nothing (hopefully) will happen at Copenhagen.

I stand by my statement, it's "idoits"/politcians posturing for their own benefit.

JMHO,
T

You better hang on tight to your money, those 'redistribution of wealth' trolls and gremlins have you in their sights.

Sorry about being so snarky, but I really do not understand all the fear of redistribution of wealth many conservatives have. Do you really seriously believe that some people not only want global redistribution but have the political power to do so? The current global economy isn't so easily manipulated, nor are the democratic countries so easily swayed or forced.

I think it is more of a windmill than a giant.

Of course, we'll have a whole new perspective on this issue when oil is $500 a barrel...