Interesting it took so long for this to get published mainstream.

Seems he gave up "greater jihad" for "lesser jihad".

Finally...someone mentions the RULEBOOK...tragedy is he mentions it..then chose to follow it...

CAIR meltdown in 3...2...1...

PC at its worst.

Was Hasan a member of the ad above the comment section?
/

re: #2 Sharmuta

Seems he gave up "greater jihad" for "lesser jihad".

I know where they can put their 'lesser jihad'...

His definition of Islamist...is spot on. Unfortunately.

re: #1 Ben Hur

Interesting it took so long for this to get published mainstream.

It just seems like a long time. It's only been ten days since the rampage.

Why the "alleged"?

Wow! He says "Don't doubt their loyalty to U.S. → God vs. Country"

After your actions, major- you've just ensured many people will doubt their loyalty. You screwed over your fellow muslims, asshole!

re: #9 The Sanity Inspector

It just seems like a long time. It's only been ten days since the rampage.

Right.

And this thing has been on the internet for 9 days.

That's a long time in politics and press.

He must have misread the part about the "peaceful inner killing of the infidel."

re: #10 Ben Hur

Why the "alleged"?

Hasn't been convicted of anything.

I'm not sure there's anything to add to this post. Charles' summation pretty much says it all. It's been clear for a while that there were some serious red flags about Hasan, and that he should have been investigated by the Army brass.

It gets really creepy around slide 48

"We love death more than you love life!"

Of course I think a 50 slide powerpoint presentation is a form of torture.

re: #10 Ben Hur

Why the "alleged"?

They're allowing for the off-chance that this was caused by Bush and the GOP.

/

re: #14 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hasn't been convicted of anything.

Neither was Atta.

PC kills

re: #16 DaddyG

It gets really creepy around slide 48

"We love death more than you love life!"

Of course I think a 50 slide powerpoint presentation is a form of torture.

Seriously. Death by PowerPoint is how the Air Force punishes trains its soldiers, not the Army.

Hey here's Liddy and Bower playing the "You think you're crazy?! I'll show you crazy!" game on Liddy's radio show.

Liddy is a crank, but Bauer is a guy who ran a not so distant credible campaign for the Republican nomination. People with serious heft in the Republican party are batshit insane. This is a problem.

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Hmm- he didn't list Moses as a prophet. I thought muslims did consider Moses as one of the prophets... Interesting.

re: #18 Ben Hur

Neither was Atta.

I think they use alleged because of slander or libel or something. Ask Lawhawk.

Senior army doctors: on the ball

re: #20 Athens Runaway

Seriously. Death by PowerPoint is how the Air Force punishes trains its soldiers, not the Army.

My big brother is USAF - he taught me the phrase "death by powerpoint" along with "blackberry prayer". :-)

Apes and swine! It's all there.

Plus, if you will note, the guy can barely write an English sentence. Apparently you don't have to to be a psychiatrist in the Army.

re: #1 Ben Hur

NPR reported on it last week.

re: #16 DaddyG

It gets really creepy around slide 48

"We love death more than you love life!"

Of course I think a 50 slide powerpoint presentation is a form of torture.

Especially when given by someone whose knowledge of his subject is "only PowerPoint deep."

re: #10 Ben Hur

Why the "alleged"?

Because that's how our system works. He hasn't been tried and convicted and he doesn't look like he'll confessed.

Do you have a problem?

re: #16 DaddyG

It gets really creepy around slide 48

"We love death more than you love life!"

Of course I think a 50 slide powerpoint presentation is a form of torture.

That seems to be in a wee bit of conflict with the physician's admonition to: "First, do no harm."

Raging clue.

re: #25 DaddyG

My big brother is USAF - he taught me the phrase "death by powerpoint" along with "blackberry prayer". :-)

Most of my friends are Air Force ROTC, in the hopes of being in the real thing after college.

If they ever get captured behind enemy lines when the C-130 goes down, I have no worries they'll be able to bore the enemy into submission with their PowerPoints and TPS reports.

Political Correctness doesn't kill people. Jihadists hiding behind political correctness kill people.

re: #29 Cato the Elder

PIMF: "confess"

It’s amazing (and not in a good way) that this episode didn’t prompt a serious investigation

Everyone was too intimidated of being accused of "racism" or "Islamophobia."

Can you imagine the uproar (completely justified) if a Christian gave a similar lecture on the New Testament?

re: #18 Ben Hur

Neither was Atta.

Check your scorecard: in the war between civilization and barbarism, we're civilization. Justice will be done.

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Because that's how our system works. He hasn't been tried and convicted and he doesn't look like he'll confessed.

Do you have a problem?

I was unaware that LGF was a court of law.

And no, I don't have a problem. Apparently yours is well publicized.

re: #1 Ben Hur

(I believe this was published on Nov. 10. Gates on Friday went ballistic with the press leaking these kinds of documents -- apparently he's really pissed off...thinks this stuff shouldn't have been made available.)

The man who just killed good American soldiers was telling doctors not to doubt the loyalty of Muslims in the army?

If I were a Muslim in the US army, I would seriously hate Hasan for the damage he has done to me, and the suspicion that would be pointed at me becuase of his actions.

s48, not in quotes, exclamation point
We love death more than you love life!

s28-
4 Rewards slides
3 Punishments slides

re: #10 Ben Hur

But the suspect has yet to be tried in a court of law and found guilty of his crimes. Until that occurs, the suspect is presumed innocent.

re: #41 J.S.

But the suspect has yet to be tried in a court of law and found guilty of his crimes. Until that occurs, the suspect is presumed innocent.

It was meant to be an LGF specific question. THe summary was not a quote from the Post.

re: #41 J.S.

Hypothetically, if he was killed at the scene, would it still be alleged?

re: #39 EmmmieG

The man who just killed good American soldiers was telling doctors not to doubt the loyalty of Muslims in the army?

If I were a Muslim in the US army, I would seriously hate Hasan for the damage he has done to me, and the suspicion that would be pointed at me becuase of his actions.

American Muslims To Fort Hood Shooter: 'Thanks A Lot, Asshole'

PowerPoint Is Evil.

Good thing this guy isn't a surgeon. One can only imagine what his pp presentation would have contained.

Slide 51 - Reward in Heaven

re: #41 J.S.

But the suspect has yet to be tried in a court of law and found guilty of his crimes. Until that occurs, the suspect is presumed innocent.

just like the nice folk they just brought for trial in NYC...

re: #46 borgcube

Good thing this guy isn't a surgeon. One can only imagine what his pp presentation would have contained.

What cutting sarcasm.

Okay, yes, inappropriate to start a pun thread, but I couldn't resist.

re: #42 Ben Hur

It was meant to be an LGF specific question. THe summary was not a quote from the Post.

LGF is, for all intents and purposes, part of the press. The press generally observes the convention pertaining to accusation vs. conviction. I think you have a problem.

re: #42 Ben Hur

Oh, I see...(actually though, a couple of days after Hasan's rampage, the FBI did have to state over and over that there was but one shooter...even several days later, there were still people wondering if Hasan didn't have some accomplices who managed to escape.)

re: #44 Obdicut

American Muslims To Fort Hood Shooter: 'Thanks A Lot, Asshole'

Too bad that's fiction...

re: #50 Cato the Elder

LGF is part of the press? Hmmm... where are my press credentials? Thanks for reminding me about that... /

re: #48 brookly red

just like the nice folk they just brought for trial in NYC...

Having worked in the World Trade Center, after 9/11, and now a couple blocks away, I am not cool with this. I don't care about the legal reasons, good or bad, keep those assholes and their friends as far away from me as possible.

re: #53 lawhawk

LGF is part of the press? Hmmm... where are my press credentials? Thanks for reminding me about that... /

Does this mean I can go backstage at concerts or get into the White House press room? /

Finished it, kind of. (Skimmed a bunch.)

Creepy, creepy, creepy. I'm amazed that this didn't set off MAJOR alarms.

Ah...good ol Sura 17:33

"And do not kill anyone whose killing Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause..."

A whole lot of 'just causes' going around apparently.

*spit*

re: #50 Cato the Elder

LGF is, for all intents and purposes, part of the press. The press generally observes the convention pertaining to accusation vs. conviction. I think you have a problem.

THink all you want.

We all KNOW about you.

re: #55 DaddyG

Does this mean I can go backstage at concerts or get into the White House press room? /

I nominated Mandy for WH reporter months ago. Can you imagine? Heh.

re: #43 badger1970

Yes...I believe that's the way it works -- remember that fellow not that long ago who murdered his ex-wife,...fled to Canada...then he committed suicide in a motel room? (or maybe you don't remember that one.) Anyway, his relatives still insist that he wasn't the one who killed her...even though the police, FBI, etc., all said he did it...(He was buried as an innocent man).

re: #60 J.S.

Yes...I believe that's the way it works -- remember that fellow not that long ago who murdered his ex-wife,...fled to Canada...then he committed suicide in a motel room? (or maybe you don't remember that one.) Anyway, his relatives still insist that he wasn't the one who killed her...even though the police, FBI, etc., all said he did it...(He was buried as an innocent man).

Didn't he cut off her finger tips and pull her teeth? Something like that? And put her in a suitcase?

re: #54 Baier

Having worked in the World Trade Center, after 9/11, and now a couple blocks away, I am not cool with this. I don't care about the legal reasons, good or bad, keep those assholes and their friends as far away from me as possible.

just imagen if they walk...

I guess he forgot Sura 60:08 (but I do see that spencer and geller are misquoting that verse).

And here is the crux of the matter: Verse 60:08, "Allah forbids you...from dealing kindly and justly" with those who fight Muslims." [Slide 40]

Robert- that's not what the verse says. Here is the verse from Pickthal:

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

Regardless of spencer's sloppy work- hasan forgot kindness and dealing justly.

re: #52 Oh no...Sand People!

Too bad that's fiction...

What do you mean? I know all of my friends who are Muslims are apoplectic with rage towards him.

re: #56 EmmmieG

Finished it, kind of. (Skimmed a bunch.)

Creepy, creepy, creepy. I'm amazed that this didn't set off MAJOR alarms.

I think it did set off alarms, but not enough of them and not high up enough in the chain of command to get Hassan moved to a nice safe harmless position. If I read the tea leaves correctly they were maneuvering to get him "retired". No promotions and bad performance reviews along with an assignment at Fort Hood where there would be other psychologists to take up slack as he was eased out of the way.

I've seen verions of this in corporate life where someone really needs firing but because of labor laws they are slowly pushed out as a case is built against them one review at a time.

maybe everyone was to busy demonizing Christian hockey moms from Alaska to notice, or care about, the fact that we had a self proclaimed jihadist serving as a major in our army...

re: #54 Baier

I just have pity on the poor saps who were accustomed to various freedoms in that general zip code...

re: #61 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes, that's the one...(I believe it happened in Vegas (?)); terrible, gruesome story there..

re: #68 J.S.

Yes, that's the one...(I believe it happened in Vegas (?)); terrible, gruesome story there..

I wanna say L.A.

re: #57 Oh no...Sand People!

Ah...good ol Sura 17:33

"And do not kill anyone whose killing Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause..."

A whole lot of 'just causes' going around apparently.

*spit*

Well, it appears that ol' Sura 17:33 is what the folks in the lawyerin' bidnez call a "loophole".

/

What's everyone's take on his business cards?

Was he getting ready to bolt and live a new life in P'stan as a psychologist?

re: #39 EmmmieG

The man who just killed good American soldiers was telling doctors not to doubt the loyalty of Muslims in the army?

If I were a Muslim in the US army, I would seriously hate Hasan for the damage he has done to me, and the suspicion that would be pointed at me becuase of his actions.

No one should point any fingers unless of course, you're showing slideshows about Death to America. I mean really. Why should any Muslim be ashamed to serve in our Army unless they agree with this lunatic?

Do Christians kill Christians in war? Do Jews kill Jews? Yes, of course. Americans don't fight holy wars. That's the difference (one anyway) between us and them.

They were afraid to racial profile Hasan, as if any of this would have been considered such. Did the Army actually learn from this lesson I wonder? Quite a price to pay isn't it, 13 lives. What a terrible low point for our Army, I'm sorry to say.

re: #66 rollwave87

maybe everyone was to busy demonizing Christian hockey moms from Alaska to notice, or care about, the fact that we had a self proclaimed jihadist serving as a major in our army...

You think the doctors at Walter Reed were more interested in demonizing Palin? I think you're stretching.

re: #69 Cannadian Club Akbar

I wanna say L.A.

She went missing in San Diego, body dumped in LA.

re: #64 Obdicut

What do you mean? I know all of my friends who are Muslims are apoplectic with rage towards him.

The Onion isn't fiction!?

re: #4 Cato the Elder
Charles mentioned a while back that they had been marginalized, or at least discredited, due to terrorist associations. ** We can only hope.
** shocka

re: #69 Cannadian Club Akbar

O no! (The Canadian connection was Calgary -- I'm pretty sure about that..)

re: #77 J.S.

O no! (The Canadian connection was Calgary -- I'm pretty sure about that..)

Yes.

re: #75 Oh no...Sand People!

The Onion isn't fiction!?

Well, it's satire. Some of their pieces are obviously quite accurate. Satire isn't really either fiction or non-fiction.

By 'too bad that's fiction' I assumed you meant that you thought that American Muslims didn't feel that way. I'm glad to know I was mistaken.

Apologies.

re: #72 marjoriemoon

No one should point any fingers unless of course, you're showing slideshows about Death to America. I mean really. Why should any Muslim be ashamed to serve in our Army unless they agree with this lunatic?

Do Christians kill Christians in war? Do Jews kill Jews? Yes, of course. Americans don't fight holy wars. That's the difference (one anyway) between us and them.

They were afraid to racial profile Hasan, as if any of this would have been considered such. Did the Army actually learn from this lesson I wonder? Quite a price to pay isn't it, 13 lives. What a terrible low point for our Army, I'm sorry to say.

I'm kind of tired of their 'flat earth' revolving only around them...

re: #60 J.S.

That was the reality TV guy? It's one thing on a killing like that but another thing entirely when there are multiple witnesses to the effect that, "Hasan is the shooter."

May his trial be fair and his punishment great.

re: #72 marjoriemoon

Americans don't fight holy wars...

You have obviously never belonged to a home owners association. /

re: #79 Obdicut

Well, it's satire. Some of their pieces are obviously quite accurate. Satire isn't really either fiction or non-fiction.

By 'too bad that's fiction' I assumed you meant that you thought that American Muslims didn't feel that way. I'm glad to know I was mistaken.

Apologies.

No problem. But I would really like to see someone of the Islamic persuasion actually type something along those lines and try to get it published.

re: #72 marjoriemoon

No one should point any fingers unless of course, you're showing slideshows about Death to America. I mean really. Why should any Muslim be ashamed to serve in our Army unless they agree with this lunatic?

Do Christians kill Christians in war? Do Jews kill Jews? Yes, of course. Americans don't fight holy wars. That's the difference (one anyway) between us and them.

They were afraid to racial profile Hasan, as if any of this would have been considered such. Did the Army actually learn from this lesson I wonder? Quite a price to pay isn't it, 13 lives. What a terrible low point for our Army, I'm sorry to say.

Americans don't fight holy wars?!!??!?!?!?!?!???

BUSH ajsdhfakhsefpikahsef[oasesdfaspoifua!!!

bbl

re: #44 Obdicut
See, it's The Onion. Too bad it's not real life.
A little less ' nothing to see here' from the MM community would go a long way in times such as these, and while I am sure there are pockets here and there, they are dwarfed by the background noise of ' hell yeah-hasan-you-da-man'.

re: #82 DaddyG

You have obviously never belonged to a home owners association. /

LOL I stand corrected.

re: #84 Ben Hur

Americans don't fight holy wars?!!??!?!?!?!?!???

BUSH ajsdhfakhsefpikahsef[oasesdfaspoifua!!!

I'm assuming you meant to be funny or sarcastic, but that went totally over my head!

re: #55 DaddyG

Does this mean I can go backstage at concerts or get into the White House press room? /

I want to be LGF SuperBowl press consultant!!! press box seats!! I called it first..It's mine, mine, mine!!!

re: #89 Spider Mensch

I want to be LGF SuperBowl press consultant!!! press box seats!! I called it first..It's mine, mine, mine!!!

...and I thought the ding whoring was bad around here. :-)

I just came across an interesting blog written back in February of 2006 outlining why the peaceful majority of Muslims seem to be irrelevant. The link is here. It seems as though an entire religion or nation getting hijacked by fanatics is not new in history.

OT- They found the remains of the little 5 year old girl in North Carolina who was missing.:(

re: #86 tradewind

See, it's The Onion. Too bad it's not real life.
A little less ' nothing to see here' from the MM community would go a long way in times such as these, and while I am sure there are pockets here and there, they are dwarfed by the background noise of ' hell yeah-hasan-you-da-man'.

Where do you live? I haven't heard any such background noise.

re: #82 DaddyG

You have obviously never belonged to a home owners association. /

LOL! We had a condo in La Jolla a number of years ago. Home owners' association was nothing but retired folks with nothing else to do. Went on a business trip for a couple of weeks. When I got home, they'd discussed, voted, passed, contracted for, and had completed installing speed bumps throughout the entire complex.

One bump about every two feet.

Heads should roll over this.

*What I mean is, the Army should take appropriate disciplinary action against all of those who completely ignored the warning signs.

re: #81 badger1970

Ok, it was Ryan Jenkins...wiki article here.

re: #66 rollwave87

maybe everyone was to busy demonizing Christian hockey moms from Alaska to notice, or care about, the fact that we had a self proclaimed jihadist serving as a major in our army...

So... Sarah Palin was not the Governor of Alaska then? She was a Christian hockey mom? Wow, ya think the voters knew that when they voted for her? You know, before she decided to QUIT.

re: #94 subsailor68

Asphalt moguls?

49 slides of disjointed religious gobbledygook and on slide 50 the "conclusion" is submitted for recommendation, and with a not so subtle threat just for added measure in the recommendation itself? After two or three slides a superior officer should have yanked the cord and had Hasan put in one of his own rubber rooms for his own sake and ours.

And no one did anything? First time I've seen the actual slides. PC run amok. If it's this bad even in the military, it must be many times worse than I've even imagined everywhere else.

re: #83 Oh no...Sand People!

No problem. But I would really like to see someone of the Islamic persuasion actually type something along those lines and try to get it published.

They have. It doesn't make very good copy, though.

Local Muslim leader condemns the attack

Islamic Society Of North America condemns attacks and starts victims' fund.

Even CAIRs original statement was condemnatory and not, until later, self-serving.

And some actual good news out of Saudi Arabia:

Saudi cleric condemning terrorism in very, very strong terms.

re: #94 subsailor68

LOL! We had a condo in La Jolla a number of years ago. Home owners' association was nothing but retired folks with nothing else to do. Went on a business trip for a couple of weeks. When I got home, they'd discussed, voted, passed, contracted for, and had completed installing speed bumps throughout the entire complex.

One bump about every two feet.

In Britain they call speed bumps "sleeping policemen". Wicked, wicked Brits!

re: #101 Cato the Elder

In Britain they call speed bumps "sleeping policemen". Wicked, wicked Brits!

Hey Cato! That's a total hoot! I'd never heard that before. Thanks!

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just have pity on the poor saps who were accustomed to various freedoms in that general zip code...

It always a zoo down here, I just feel like the value of a downtown NYC target is now even more enriched. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where something bad is not at least attempted during the trial.

I'm simply shocked that the vaunted Cairo speech didn't put an end to this type of thing

/

But seriously, if the soothing words (delivered in June in Egypt) of the Commander in Chief didn't impress an American born Army officer of the muslim faith, who in their right mind would expect those words to have any beneficial effect on jihadis or other anti American "believers" in other countries of the middle east and asia?

re: #97 marjoriemoon

So... Sarah Palin was not the Governor of Alaska then? She was a Christian hockey mom? Wow, ya think the voters knew that when they voted for her? You know, before she decided to QUIT.

That comment is so convoluted, I'm not sure where to start with it. There was no way for the msm to know about hasan's issues before the massacre, and I highly doubt the doctors at Walter Reed thought Alaskan hockey moms were a bigger threat than crypto-jihadis in the armed forces.

re: #71 Ben Hur

What's everyone's take on his business cards?

Was he getting ready to bolt and live a new life in P'stan as a psychologist?

I'll bet he was hoping to die during the attack.

"Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

re: #16 DaddyG

It gets really creepy around slide 48

"We love death more than you love life!"

Of course I think a 50 slide powerpoint presentation is a form of torture.

That's what some of my professors do every week.

re: #41 J.S.

But the suspect has yet to be tried in a court of law and found guilty of his crimes. Until that occurs, the suspect is presumed innocent.

It's perfectly acceptable legally or otherwise to call them 'the perpatrator' if he's dead and there's not going to be a trial.

Greg

re: #105 Sharmuta

I highly doubt the doctors at Walter Reed thought Alaskan hockey moms were a bigger threat than crypto-jihadis in the armed forces.

What's the difference between a Hockey Mom and a crypto-jihadist?

I remember a joke like that during the campaign.

re: #100 Obdicut

They have. It doesn't make very good copy, though.

Local Muslim leader condemns the attack

Islamic Society Of North America condemns attacks and starts victims' fund.

Even CAIRs original statement was condemnatory and not, until later, self-serving.

And some actual good news out of Saudi Arabia:

Saudi cleric condemning terrorism in very, very strong terms.

That's good, but I wouldn't take a dime from ISNA as they have ties to hamas. Here's the LGF tag search on the INSA for more reading.

re: #83 Oh no...Sand People!

No problem. But I would really like to see someone of the Islamic persuasion actually type something along those lines and try to get it published.

Without having to use a pseudonym, or hiding under cover in a Western nation.

re: #89 Spider Mensch

I called it first..It's mine, mine, mine!!!

Daffy?

re: #109 Baier

What's the difference between a Hockey Mom and a crypto-jihadist?

I remember a joke like that during the campaign.

Lipstick!

re: #107 Virginia Plain

That's what some of my professors do every week.

Oh yeah. And it's no better in the business world. Nothing makes me crazier than some guy who creates a 68-slide powerpoint presentation, with nothing but bullet text on each slide...

And then stands up in front of everyone and simply READS every bullet point on every slide!

Arrgghhh!

re: #100 Obdicut

They have. It doesn't make very good copy, though.

Local Muslim leader condemns the attack

Islamic Society Of North America condemns attacks and starts victims' fund.

Even CAIRs original statement was condemnatory and not, until later, self-serving.

And some actual good news out of Saudi Arabia:

Saudi cleric condemning terrorism in very, very strong terms.

The first 2 are fantastic articles...I can't find a date on the 3rd, but phenomenal as well. Now if we can just get a megaphone and a 24/7 channel to push this stuff into the Islamist faces to get a clue.

re: #106 The Sanity Inspector

I'll bet he was hoping to die during the attack.

"Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."

re: #45 Cato the Elder

PowerPoint Is Evil.

Especially the spiral notebook theme.

re: #109 Baier

What's the difference between a Hockey Mom and a crypto-jihadist?

The difference: one reads the Bible, the other the Koran.

The similarity: neither has a brain.

re: #117 gregb

Especially the spiral notebook theme.

That was a clear sign right there. /

re: #51 J.S.

Oh, I see...(actually though, a couple of days after Hasan's rampage, the FBI did have to state over and over that there was but one shooter...even several days later, there were still people wondering if Hasan didn't have some accomplices who managed to escape.)

The "magic bullet" or "single bullet" theory?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #118 Cato the Elder

The difference: one reads the Bible, the other the Koran.

The similarity: neither has a brain.

How does Hassan look in pumps and a skirt? /

re: #110 Sharmuta

That's good, but I wouldn't take a dime from ISNA as they have ties to hamas. Here's the LGF tag search on the INSA for more reading.

That would be fantastic... donating money to them and they funnel it to Hamas...

re: #114 subsailor68

Oh yeah. And it's no better in the business world. Nothing makes me crazier than some guy who creates a 68-slide powerpoint presentation, with nothing but bullet text on each slide...

And then stands up in front of everyone and simply READS every bullet point on every slide!

Arrgghhh!

See, at least my professors upload note-taking handouts so that we can write stuff that is not in the slides. I learn more from what's not in the slides than what's in the 50+ slides.

re: #101 Cato the Elder

In Britain they call speed bumps "sleeping policemen". Wicked, wicked Brits!

The Brits also have a taxonomy of crosswalks, these being Zebra, Pelican, Puffin, Toucan and Pegasus crossings:

Pedestrian Crossings

re: #109 Baier

What's the difference between a Hockey Mom and a crypto-jihadist?

I remember a joke like that during the campaign.

A $150,000 GOP sponsored clothes bill?

re: #112 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Daffy?

from the "this isn't Pismo beach?" Bugs and Daffy..lol..."'I'm a happy miser!"

re: #93 Cato the Elder
You don't read/ listen to the news? Start with the bunch in NY, led by their imam.
I'm just saying that the mainstream muslim community tends to be generally quiet after an incident.
I'm not saying they are happy with what he did. Those who are happy, though, really let it rip.

Slide #35 gives me the 'warm fuzzies':

"Later versus abrogated the former ie: Peaceful verses no longer apply"...

I would love/hate to get the headcount that believes this interpretation.

re: #52 Oh no...Sand People!

Too bad that's fiction...

I suspect it sums up many people's feelings very accurately, though.

re: #122 Oh no...Sand People!

That would be fantastic... donating money to them and they funnel it to Hamas...

That's a really great point too. It's just not an organization I would trust. That they want to help the victims is a positive step forward, but until they're no longer tied to the Ikhwan, I can't trust them.

re: #53 lawhawk

LGF is part of the press? Hmmm... where are my press credentials? Thanks for reminding me about that... /

I'm pretty sure Charles regards himself as part of the blogospheric "press". With every justification, in my view. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's probably why he adheres to the "alleged" convention.

re: #115 Oh no...Sand People!

The first 2 are fantastic articles...I can't find a date on the 3rd, but phenomenal as well. Now if we can just get a megaphone and a 24/7 channel to push this stuff into the Islamist faces to get a clue.

There's a lot of scared, powerful men using the religious fanatics as a tool in the Middle East, a Faustian bargain that has no clear path out of it.

Most nations in the Middle East are corrupt and have huge amounts of religious extremism and a gigantic rich-poor divide. They have an enormous vested interest in keeping their populations anti-West, angry, and religiously zealous-- though they play with fire, since they (such as the Saudis) may not be zealots enough for their fringes.

Change has to occur inside Islam, a lot of it, and there is nothing anyone who is not Islamic can do about that-- except to propagate and push the value and concept of freedom of religion.

It's somewhat chicken-or-the-egg, but I do feel that the corrupt governments of the Middle East are the originator of the excesses of radical Islam.

re: #100 Obdicut
So it's the media's fault that the good word doesn't get out?
I would think they'd want to be promoting diversity by spreading this news.

re: #128 Oh no...Sand People!

Slide #35 gives me the 'warm fuzzies':

I would love/hate to get the headcount that believes this interpretation.

There is a well-known anti-jihad website that keeps a running daily tally of Islamist terror attacks around the world. That's probably as useful a count as there is.

re: #131 Cato the Elder

Israel is considering giving press credentials to LGF.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #108 gregb

In Canada, if working for the CBC, you'd have to add the "alleged perpetrator"...again, if a person has been charged with a crime, but the trial has yet to take place, there is a presumption of innocence...CBC Journalistic Standards...

re: #127 tradewind

You don't read/ listen to the news? Start with the bunch in NY, led by their imam.
I'm just saying that the mainstream muslim community tends to be generally quiet after an incident.
I'm not saying they are happy with what he did. Those who are happy, though, really let it rip.

I did not come across the story in NY, and would appreciate a link.

re: #136 J.S.

In Canada, if working for the CBC, you'd have to add the "alleged perpetrator"...again, if a person has been charged with a crime, but the trial has yet to take place, there is a presumption of innocence...CBC Journalistic Standards...

Gee, that's stupid. At least in this case.

I can't be too hard on street level Muslims that are silent about specific acts of Jihad. When a Mormon is cited in the press for something stupid I am not want to add additional volume to the report or engage in the no true Scotsman fallacy for the sake of covering my embarassment.

On the other hand (and you knew there would be an other hand) leaders in the Islamic world need to be more forceful in condemning violence. At the turn of this century the Islamic faith is far too closely associated with violence and terrorism and no amount of PC can cover the smell of that much blood.

re: #133 tradewind

So it's the media's fault that the good word doesn't get out?
I would think they'd want to be promoting diversity by spreading this news.

I'm sorry, I can't tell what you mean. Are you somehow saying that the media has an agenda to 'promote diversity'?

re: #138 Virginia Plain

Why do you believe that to be stupid?

re: #132 Obdicut

There's a lot of scared, powerful men using the religious fanatics as a tool in the Middle East, a Faustian bargain that has no clear path out of it.

Most nations in the Middle East are corrupt and have huge amounts of religious extremism and a gigantic rich-poor divide. They have an enormous vested interest in keeping their populations anti-West, angry, and religiously zealous-- though they play with fire, since they (such as the Saudis) may not be zealots enough for their fringes.

Change has to occur inside Islam, a lot of it, and there is nothing anyone who is not Islamic can do about that-- except to propagate and push the value and concept of freedom of religion.

It's somewhat chicken-or-the-egg, but I do feel that the corrupt governments of the Middle East are the originator of the excesses of radical Islam.

Now if we could just get them to stop reading their rulebook...

re: #134 The Sanity Inspector

There is a well-known anti-jihad website that keeps a running daily tally of Islamist terror attacks around the world. That's probably as useful a count as there is.

Oh, been there...alot.

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

OT- They found the remains of the little 5 year old girl in North Carolina who was missing.:(

Oh no. I saw that story in the SF Chron this morning, but they said she was still missing.

In the meantime, they found a child's body in the Berkeley Marina. A woman was killed there, they believe by her boyfriend, a few days ago, and her little boy was missing. They're not sure if it's him, but it does seem likely.

Could the world improve by, like, twelve percent or somethin'?

re: #105 Sharmuta

That comment is so convoluted, I'm not sure where to start with it. There was no way for the msm to know about hasan's issues before the massacre, and I highly doubt the doctors at Walter Reed thought Alaskan hockey moms were a bigger threat than crypto-jihadis in the armed forces.

heh Yea, but I needed a good vent today so it worked for me!

Re Palin, I didn't get to comment on the other threads (my online time has been cut drastically) but I find it rather comical that Levi was right all along. And not that I'm a big fan, but I never thought of him as a liar.

re: #124 charlz

The Brits also have a taxonomy of crosswalks, these being Zebra, Pelican, Puffin, Toucan and Pegasus crossings:

Pedestrian Crossings

They take their crosswalks seriously. Here in New England they're pretty good about it, too.

In Baltimore you take your life in your hands attempting to cross at a marked crosswalk if there's any oncoming traffic. Up here in NE, cars stop if someone is even close to the crosswalk.

re: #132 Obdicut

It's somewhat chicken-or-the-egg, but I do feel that the corrupt governments of the Middle East are the originator of the excesses of radical Islam.

See: Wahhabism.

re: #142 Oh no...Sand People!

Now if we could just get them to stop reading their rulebook...

It's a religious text. You can make anything out of it that you want. It doesn't have any inherent meaning.

See: Christians, lack of Christ-like-ness.

re: #113 Sharmuta

Lipstick!

High heels!

re: #135 Sharmuta

Israel is considering giving press credentials to LGF.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Has Charles been to Israel? I always thought an LGF group would be a great thing to put together. And yea, I want in on those journalist credentials LOL

BBT. Do me a favor, lizardoids? If I show my avatar here before six hours have elapsed, encourage me to leave and get back to work. Procrastination is a vice of mine; when I'm not blog-surfing, I'm busying myself with unimportant little chores, as a means of avoiding tough or otherwise unpleasant tasks. So now I've gotta go get some quantity work done. Hate to bail out of a jihad thread, but meatspace obligations are plucking my sleeve. TIA.

This is the exact kind of thing that falls through bureaucratic cracks. If you say that the other psychiatrists and psychologists should have seen something, they did--but these professions can only go by diagnostic criteria that is specifically categorized in the diagnostic manuals. And these manuals are as much political documents as scientific documents (psychiatry and psychology especially). There is no way militant Islam is going to be classified a psychiatric disorder. So, the professionals can only conclude that he is exercising his right of free speech, go have coffee, and say he's a dangerous nut, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Both mental health fields need to completely rework their idea of a psychological engine. The present models are biochemical, in which you still will not find militant Islam, and the old idea of a progression of a normalcy that is screwed up by parental mistakes until it becomes a neurosis or personality disorder. Nature/nurture. You still won't be able to find radical Islam there.

However, let's say we change this engine to a churning of two strong emotional forces--say, shame and honor and all of the derivations of shame and honor--heaven and hell, punishment and reward, for instance--and begin to name disorders based on the intensity of this churning, then quite a few folks would fall into those new categories, including those believing in militant Islam, and the Westboro Church, and...long list.

Now, this seems as if everyone would fall into the category of mental illness. And putting aside what everyone already knows, that the world is nuts, there is such a thing as a healthy churning--and engine comprised of a churning between truth and falsity. That is, you pursue truth and try to eliminate what is not true, just like folks pursue honor, heaven, reward and try to avoid shame, hell, and punishment.

Of course this type of engine is the bedrock of science, but it can also be the bedrock of anything else, including religion. It seems to me that the most violence this type of engine would create is a heated argument.

Anyway, if the diagnostic criteria was based on this, then they would have felt he was dangerous quite a while ago, be able to take appropriate action, and all of this could have been avoided. This is just one idea.

re: #148 Obdicut

It's a religious text. You can make anything out of it that you want. It doesn't have any inherent meaning.

Unfortunately, I must disagree. When the Koran says "kill the infidels", it pretty much means just that.

Crazy Pam thinks Obama is spying on her readers...
The White House Tracking Atlas readers?

This is from a reader who asks to remain anonymous. Anyone else in Atlas land have this happening to them? Not sure if this is a blip or if the creepy White House is doing Big Brother really big.

Tell the boys at Politico as well.

Whitehouse.gov is putting a “cookie” in the Macromedia file on my computer when I visit your site. I’ve had this happen lately with Politico too. Please don’t identify me if you mention this anywhere.

re: #35 Alouette

Everyone was too intimidated of being accused of "racism" or "Islamophobia."

Can you imagine the uproar (completely justified) if a Christian gave a similar lecture on the New Testament?

Apparently there has been some pretty serious intimidation in the military of non-Christians. I recall there was a big to-do about this at the Air Force academy in 2005 - though I state clearly and without equivocation that there is not a moral equivalence. Harassment and murder are worlds apart and the ideologies are totally different.

re: #146 Cato the Elder

They take their crosswalks seriously. Here in New England they're pretty good about it, too.
In Baltimore you take your life in your hands attempting to cross at a marked crosswalk if there's any oncoming traffic. Up here in NE, cars stop if someone is even close to the crosswalk.

Lived in and around Boston most of my life and I agree. Have traveled to most major cities in the USA (and many abroad) and Boston wasn't too bad about it

Was VERY pleasantly surprise when I moved to Georgia how most will actually stop and wave you through the crosswalk even if they have a green light (and the guy behind that person doesn't even blow his horn in anger!)

re: #148 Obdicut

It's a religious text. You can make anything out of it that you want. It doesn't have any inherent meaning.

See: Christians, lack of Christ-like-ness.

This is where I disagree. Have you read the Qu'ran?

re: #151 The Sanity Inspector

BBT. Do me a favor, lizardoids? If I show my avatar here before six hours have elapsed, encourage me to leave and get back to work. Procrastination is a vice of mine; when I'm not blog-surfing, I'm busying myself with unimportant little chores, as a means of avoiding tough or otherwise unpleasant tasks. So now I've gotta go get some quantity work done. Hate to bail out of a jihad thread, but meatspace obligations are plucking my sleeve. TIA.

You're asking the addicts to police a fellow addict?

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam thinks Obama is spying on her readers...
The White House Tracking Atlas readers?

Is what she's talking about - getting a cookie from another site when you visit hers - even possible?

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam thinks Obama is spying on her readers...
The White House Tracking Atlas readers?

They are SO STUPID. If they put a tinfoil cover over their computer, they won't have to worry about it!

Yeesh, I thought everyone knew that!

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam thinks Obama is spying on her readers...
The White House Tracking Atlas readers?

Dear "anonymous"

Buy tinfiol and wrap your entire puter with it, CPU, Screen, Keyboard, Mouse and all!

Signed

ShhhH!!!

re: #156 sattv4u2

Was VERY pleasantly surprise when I moved to Georgia how most will actually stop and wave you through the crosswalk even if they have a green light (and the guy behind that person doesn't even blow his horn in anger!)

I don't honk my horn at pedestrians in the crosswalk. That would give them too much advanced warning. /

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Unfortunately, I must disagree. When the Koran says "kill the infidels", it pretty much means just that.

The whole issue of textual meaning and intepretation is a lot more complex than that.

re: #159 Cato the Elder

Is what she's talking about - getting a cookie from another site when you visit hers - even possible?

Yeah, appearantly Obama somehow gets her site to install a government tracking cookie.

re: #152 Bob Levin

This is the exact kind of thing that falls through bureaucratic cracks. If you say that the other psychiatrists and psychologists should have seen something, they did--but these professions can only go by diagnostic criteria that is specifically categorized in the diagnostic manuals. And these manuals are as much political documents as scientific documents (psychiatry and psychology especially). There is no way militant Islam is going to be classified a psychiatric disorder. So, the professionals can only conclude that he is exercising his right of free speech, go have coffee, and say he's a dangerous nut, and there's nothing they can do about it.

[snip]

Except, Hasan was not being diagnosed, he was not getting therapy, he was someone walking around in his job talking about killing infidels.

This has NOTHING to do with classifying Islam a psychiatric disorder.

This has to do with a person making threats, according to the information he had inculcated into him from radical Islam.

Tell, me, what does this have to do with diagnoses? That's ignoring the real problem here.

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam thinks Obama is spying on her readers...
The White House Tracking Atlas readers?

Tin foil hats for sale! Get your hats here!

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Whitehouse.gov is putting a “cookie” in the Macromedia file on my computer when I visit your site.

That there is pretty funny. Pam is passing out Obama cookies to her visitors.

re: #157 Oh no...Sand People!

This is where I disagree. Have you read the Qu'ran?

I wonder how thoroughly you may have read it, given that it's spelled "Qur'an".

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Unfortunately, I must disagree. When the Koran says "kill the infidels", it pretty much means just that.

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

re: #162 DaddyG

I don't honk my horn at pedestrians in the crosswalk. That would give them too much advanced warning. /

Yeah, but you're one of the Fulton Countieits with no muffler, right!?!?!?

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

Saturday, Saturday.

And can anyone here tell us why that is?

re: #168 Cato the Elder

I wonder how thoroughly you may have read it, given that it's spelled "Qur'an" Koran.

Infidels.

/kidding. yes I know there are about ten different ways to spell it.

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

The whole issue of textual meaning and intepretation is a lot more complex than that.

"Love thy neighbor" is pretty much clear, I'd say. And "kill the infidels", even clearer. I don't see a lot of room for interpretation in either case.

OT

Visual verification, the shuttle is a go.

re: #168 Cato the Elder

I wonder how thoroughly you may have read it, given that it's spelled "Qur'an".

Excuse my apostraphe. I will be the first to admit that it was a tedious task, akin to my year long fight through the Ol'd Testa'me'nt.

;)

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Saturday, Saturday.

And can anyone here tell us why that is?

Interfered with College Football!

re: #168 Cato the Elder

I wonder how thoroughly you may have read it, given that it's spelled "Qur'an".

Cooran...so what

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Saturday, Saturday.

And can anyone here tell us why that is?

Ah, right. sorry. My family has been atheist Jews for several hundred years now.

Or rather, the Jewish side of my family has.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

The Old Testament says nothing about stoning to death those who plant on Sunday, and Jews do not stone to death anyone who plants on Sunday, or even Saturday.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

And somehow Muslims do. Maybe not Sunday planters, but, infamously, adulterers.

And they take the injunction to kill infidels rather seriously, too.

The Koran, you see, is literal. There is no Midrashic tradition in Islam.

re: #179 Alouette

(biblical illiteracy...to be expected.)

I can see how someone in the army could look at his speech as him just trying to find another way to get out of the military. Rather then a sign that he was going to go on a shooting rampage.

re: #173 Cato the Elder

"Love thy neighbor" is pretty much clear, I'd say. And "kill the infidels", even clearer. I don't see a lot of room for interpretation in either case.

In both cases, cherrypicked verses--I don't actually know if 'kill the infidels' is a verse--taken out of context, out of historical and cultural and legal systems, and presented as though they were meant to be individually interpreted at face value.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

Because we have evidence for the past few thousand years or so that Jews kill Saturday planters every week, like clockwork. Isn't there a cable channel devoted to that? (Sorta like Saturday Night Live, only Saturday Horticulture Executioner)
Meanwhile, radical Muslims to this day NEVER 'kill the infidels"

Wait ,,, somethings wrong there !

re: #137 Cato the Elder

[Link: www.examiner.com...]
My point is not that most Muslims support what Hasan did, nor do I believe that to be the case. They just need a louder voice, or at least a more persuasive spokesman.

re: #180 Cato the Elder

And somehow Muslims do. Maybe not Sunday planters, but, infamously, adulterers.

And they take the injunction to kill infidels rather seriously, too.

The Koran, you see, is literal. There is no Midrashic tradition in Islam.

I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong. There are plenty of interpretations of the Koran, and plenty of Muslim clerics who differ strongly on the intepretation of the Koran.

Moreover, no text is literal, because we humans are not capable of actually taking literal meaning from a text-- subjectivity and Wittgenstein language-limits are always in play. Even "kill the infidels" requires a lot of parsing-- and there's nowhere in the Koran that just says "kill the infidels" without any context.

I will definitely acknowledge that since Mohammed was pushing his faith by war as well as by conversion, there is a cultural, historical root of war in Islam. The same is true for Judaism as well-- though the god of Abraham tended to encourage them to genocide more than conversion.

Religions mutate over time. Their texts mutate. The interpretation of the mutate. Islam is not immune.

re: #184 sattv4u2

Because we have evidence for the past few thousand years or so that Jews kill Saturday planters every week, like clockwork. Isn't there a cable channel devoted to that? (Sorta like Saturday Night Live, only Saturday Horticulture Executioner)
Meanwhile, radical Muslims to this day NEVER 'kill the infidels"

Wait ,,, somethings wrong there !

14392 terror attacks since 9/11 don't lie...

re: #180 Cato the Elder

And somehow Muslims do. Maybe not Sunday planters, but, infamously, adulterers.

And they take the injunction to kill infidels rather seriously, too.

The Koran, you see, is literal. There is no Midrashic tradition in Islam.

This fellow would disagree with you.

Is Stoning to Death Islamic?

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

He says No, btw.

re: #186 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong. There are plenty of interpretations of the Koran, and plenty of Muslim clerics who differ strongly on the intepretation of the Koran.

Moreover, no text is literal, because we humans are not capable of actually taking literal meaning from a text-- subjectivity and Wittgenstein language-limits are always in play. Even "kill the infidels" requires a lot of parsing-- and there's nowhere in the Koran that just says "kill the infidels" without any context.

I will definitely acknowledge that since Mohammed was pushing his faith by war as well as by conversion, there is a cultural, historical root of war in Islam. The same is true for Judaism as well-- though the god of Abraham tended to encourage them to genocide more than conversion.

Religions mutate over time. Their texts mutate. The interpretation of the mutate. Islam is not immune.

And what are these "interpretations of the Koran," and who are these "plenty of Muslim clerics?"

Links/statistics/proof to those statements please?

re: #179 Alouette

The Old Testament says nothing about stoning to death those who plant on Sunday, and Jews do not stone to death anyone who plants on Sunday, or even Saturday.

Thanks, was already corrected. Apologies again.

re: #186 Obdicut

Even "kill the infidels" requires a lot of parsing-
Not to the radicals
Meanwhile, please find me a news clip where a Jew killed a Saturday
planter in the last, oh, 3,000 years or so

re: #140 Obdicut
Why would I think that?///
Perhaps I should have said ' their idea of helping to promote a culturally diverse society, which is not always actually helpful to promoting true diversity and understanding between ethnicities and regligious groups in the US.

Well, I looked through the Powerpoint.

Possibly, Hasan felt his document delivers (what seems to me) a thorough, detailed indoctrination to Islam, complete with linguistic and historical context, numerous direct quotes (27 pages by my estimate,) and a knowing, informed reading of the "shahadah" by the reader/audience, and therefore comprises an argument from which any intelligent person of reason must emerge a muslim (/) ready for a life devoted to Islam.

"Shazzam!! You're all muslims now, and you know the fate of apostates, because I just told you. See you at prayer, don't be late!"

I don't know that the review board saw it that way, but I can see how Hasan might. It was his pulpit and his sermon and logically, he had to have expected his audience to take it seriously.

Or maybe I'm reading to much into this.

re: #187 Oh no...Sand People!

14392 terror attacks since 9/11 don't lie...

Oh for the love of Mike!

YES: The Koran can be, and is, used to justify terrorism.

NO: This is not the only valid or possible interpretation of the Koran.

Islamic terror comes from ideology, interpretation, historical causes and political motivations. It is NOT integral to Islam. That's all. Saying so doesn't mean Islamic terror isn't real, either, it just means that the religion is not inherently more screwed up than any other religion folks have killed and continue to kill in the name of.

re: #186 Obdicut
Conversion?
I think in Islamic history that's more properly spelled ' coercion '.

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

In both cases, cherrypicked verses--I don't actually know if 'kill the infidels' is a verse--taken out of context, out of historical and cultural and legal systems, and presented as though they were meant to be individually interpreted at face value.

An LGF post from last year: Islamic School in Virginia: Kill the Infidels and Take Their Property.

Some Muslims have no trouble understanding the plain meaning of Sura 9:5.

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

In both cases, cherrypicked verses--I don't actually know if 'kill the infidels' is a verse--taken out of context, out of historical and cultural and legal systems, and presented as though they were meant to be individually interpreted at face value.

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). " (Surah 9:123, Pickthal translation)

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 9:5)

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh for the love of Mike!

YES: The Koran can be, and is, used to justify terrorism.

NO: This is not the only valid or possible interpretation of the Koran.

Islamic terror comes from ideology, interpretation, historical causes and political motivations. It is NOT integral to Islam. That's all. Saying so doesn't mean Islamic terror isn't real, either, it just means that the religion is not inherently more screwed up than any other religion folks have killed and continue to kill in the name of.

Ooo you go girl.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

The Hebrew scriptures have no restrictions or punishments for work happening on the first day of the week. Only on the Sabbath.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

Sunday was not the Sabbath.

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

And what are these "interpretations of the Koran," and who are these "plenty of Muslim clerics?"

Links/statistics/proof to those statements please?

Well, I already posted a link to a prominent Saudi cleric giving a very anti-violence, anti-terror, anti-killing-of-civilians point of view of interpretation of the Koran.

I'm just kind of baffled that the idea that the Koran is some sort of magically unchanging message that hasn't been altered by translation or the passage of history is held as in any way true.

Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?

Here's a short article on the interpretations that occurred immediately after Mohammed:

Famous commentators of the Koran

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

And what are these "interpretations of the Koran," and who are these "plenty of Muslim clerics?"

Links/statistics/proof to those statements please?

I have PLENTY of stats to prove the opposite...

I'm making an unsupported statement here. Given the deafening silence of
"mainstream Muslims" in North America, I believe that the Muslims in the West would describe themselves as Muslim before any national identity. Part of that is because Islam does not separate mosque and state; it's one entity. Part is because of the worldwide "umma" that you are suppose to adhere to. The other part is that it is very possible that your family, imam, community etc. would see you as a traitor to Islam if you say anything negative about Islam. Moderate Tarek Fatah in Toronto receives death threats regularly for calling for greater Muslim integration into Western norms.

The koran online

Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?

Because Radicals are STILL KILLING INFIDELS in it's name

Again, show me where a Jew has KILLED A SATURDAY PLANTER

re: #200 MandyManners

Sunday was not the Sabbath.

re: #190 Obdicut

Thanks, was already corrected. Apologies again.

That's what being raised Catholic will do to you.

re: #191 sattv4u2

Even "kill the infidels" requires a lot of parsing-
Not to the radicals
Meanwhile, please find me a news clip where a Jew killed a Saturday
planter in the last, oh, 3,000 years or so

That is, in fact, my point.

re: #188 marjoriemoon

This fellow would disagree with you.

Is Stoning to Death Islamic?

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

He says No, btw.

That's the thing with islam is there is no central body/hierarchy to oversee koranic interpretations like we have with the Catholic Church, for example. Muslims can get different interpretations from imam to imam. While one will say stoning isn't islamic, another will.

re: #169 Obdicut

When the old testament says to stone to death those who plant on a Sunday, it means just that, but somehow Jews don't stone to death those who plant on a Sunday.

yeah, but I give the little old lady next door one hell of an evil eye though...

/

re: #206 Obdicut

That is, in fact, my point.

No. You equated the two phrases WITHOUT going to the next factual step that Jews do NOT kill because of the passage yet radical Mulsoms do, TO THIS VERY DAY

re: #169 Obdicut

Part of the problem is that Jewish law has moved away from a literal interpretation out of necessity and modernization. Islamic law can't move from the literal word of the Koran because of the strictures of apostasy. If you alter the word of the Koran, which is literally the word of Allah, you're violating the precepts set forth therein. That's why the fundamentalists like the Wahabi and the Salafists, and al Qaeda go after infidels and nonbelievers - both are targets, and those Muslims who aren't sufficiently hewing to Islamic law are apostate - and that includes those Sunni who think Shi'ites are apostate and vice versa.

re: #205 sattv4u2

Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?

Because Radicals are STILL KILLING INFIDELS in it's name

Again, show me where a Jew has KILLED A SATURDAY PLANTER

I'm not sure what the all caps are for. My point was that Jews are not killing people who plant on shabbos, despite a clear order to.

There is plenty of violent, near-genocidal text in the old testament/Torah-- and yet Jews are not genocidal, nor do they tend to wage war. The point is that even when there are very clear instructions and precedents in a religious text, that doesn't mean it can't be 'reinterpreted' to ameliorate that.

Given that many Muslims live here in the US-of-A without engaging in any infidel-killing, I'd have to say that it's patently obvious there are interpretations of the Koran that don't require Muslims to kill infidels.

This is a very, very bizarre conversation.

re: #201 Obdicut

Well, I already posted a link to a prominent Saudi cleric giving a very anti-violence, anti-terror, anti-killing-of-civilians point of view of interpretation of the Koran.

I'm just kind of baffled that the idea that the Koran is some sort of magically unchanging message that hasn't been altered by translation or the passage of history is held as in any way true.

Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?

Here's a short article on the interpretations that occurred immediately after Mohammed:

Famous commentators of the Koran

Well, if your baffled, then we are more baffled, since YOU mentioned that there was all sorts of interpretations of the Koran. Give us some, how about killing infidels, you brought it up.

And you say "Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?" That's not my job to answer your question, you said interpretation has changed.

YOU SHOW ME.

re: #186 Obdicut

Moreover, no text is literal, because we humans are not capable of actually taking literal meaning from a text-- subjectivity and Wittgenstein language-limits are always in play.

Ridiculous. If I say "I'm coming to kill you tonight at 10 P.M. sharp" you'll not waste time parsing or thinking about Wittgenstein. You'll call the police, and if you have any sense, you'll load a gun. If you have enough sense to own a gun.

Here's Sura 9:5, in context. Interpret away.

9:1 A declaration of immunity from God and His apostle to the idolaters with whom you have made agreements:

9:2 For four months you shall go unmolested in the land. But know that you shall not escape God’s judgement, and that God will humble the unbelievers.

9:3 A proclamation to the people from God and His apostle on the day of the greater pilgrimage:

God and His apostle are under no obligation to the idolaters. If you repent, it shall be well with you; but if you give no heed, know that you shall not be immune from God’s judgement.

Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers,

9:4 except to those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.

9:5 When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.

9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.

9:7 God and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters, save those with whom you have made treaties at the Sacred Mosque. So long as they keep faith with you, keep faith with them. God loves the righteous.

9:8 How can you trust them? If they prevail against you they will respect neither agreements nor ties of kindred. They flatter you with their tongues, but their hearts reject you. Most of them are evil doers.

re: #206 Obdicut

That's what being raised Catholic will do to you.

I'm a Christian and I know that Sunday is not the Sabbath.

re: #210 lawhawk

Part of the problem is that Jewish law has moved away from a literal interpretation out of necessity and modernization. Islamic law can't move from the literal word of the Koran because of the strictures of apostasy. If you alter the word of the Koran, which is literally the word of Allah, you're violating the precepts set forth therein. That's why the fundamentalists like the Wahabi and the Salafists, and al Qaeda go after infidels and nonbelievers - both are targets, and those Muslims who aren't sufficiently hewing to Islamic law are apostate - and that includes those Sunni who think Shi'ites are apostate and vice versa.

It's been altered hundreds of times, though-- the Wahabists were another bunch of 'alterers', going back to interpretations they preferreed, translations they preferred.

Interpretation of a text, however, doesn't require changing the text at all, just interpreting it. The Jewish tradition doesn't change the text, either, but that doesn't stop them from interpretation.

re: #211 Obdicut

I'm not sure what the all caps are for

Emphasis, because you're just not getting it!

re: #211 Obdicut

I'm not sure what the all caps are for. My point was that Jews are not killing people who plant on shabbos, despite a clear order to.

[snip]

This is a very, very bizarre conversation.

You said Sunday.

No, this is NOT a very, very bizarre conversation. What is bizarre is you bring up points, and have no facts to prove your points and then when you are asked to back up your comments, you balk.

Prove your points.

re: #201 Obdicut

Well, I already posted a link to a prominent Saudi cleric giving a very anti-violence, anti-terror, anti-killing-of-civilians point of view of interpretation of the Koran.

I'm just kind of baffled that the idea that the Koran is some sort of magically unchanging message that hasn't been altered by translation or the passage of history is held as in any way true.

Can you explain why you think the Koran, unlike other religious texts, hasn't changed over time?

Here's a short article on the interpretations that occurred immediately after Mohammed:

Famous commentators of the Koran

Also...Mohammed spoke Fus'ha Arabic. The ONLY TRUE (according to them) way you can be a 'true Scotsman' Muslim is by reading the Koran in Arabic, any 'translations' into other languages aren't deemed as 'legit'. Which is why an acquaintance of mine, when he attended mosque, had no clue what the Imam was saying or reading due to it all being in Arabic since he, my acquaintance, spoke Urdu. The text of the Koran is very well intact. Perfectly? Of course not...but not as changed due to 'interpretation errors' as you would think.

It's amazing how so many people will fall on the 'default status' of.."oh, it's a religious text...can't even attempt to understand it.." when in all actuality, even though there is debate, one can actually get a LOT of information about what they, the authors, are talking about.

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

The only folks who could detain him, to start the ball rolling, would have been doctors. Psychiatrists. They would have to issue an order stating that he can be a danger to himself and others. To do that, there has to be a genuine possibility of diagnosis that cannot be confused with hyperbolic free speech.

Remember, the question is why, with all of these red flags, why didn't anyone do anything about it? Well, I explained that. There was no diagnosis that someone couldn't argue was a violation of his rights. It's not that no one noticed.

re: #213 Cato the Elder

I have no clue what the "I'm coming to kill you" line has to do with anything.

Do you agree that American Muslims do not want to kill the infidels, or do you really, really suspect every Muslim of the world of wanting to kill every non-Muslim in the world?

I read the PowerPoint and want to find out more about the two Angles - Michael and Gabriel. Which one is acute and which one is obtuse?

//

Anyway, this looks like some presentation slapped together the night before - probably one of the reasons why he received a bad OER from Walter Reed. I assume he was told to talk about the specific stresses encountered by Muslim soldiers - there was practically nothing that serves as professional insight or recommendations. Many of the slides were incomprehensible.

I've sat through these types of presentations; he probably read from each slide verbatim. I was attending one meeting where the guy was doing the 'PowerPoint Ranger' shtick and frequently used the word 'synergy'. At the end, he asked if there were any questions. Feeling particularly evil that day, I asked him what the word 'synergy' meant - he didn't know.

The Army is short over 2,000 majors alone. Seems that the only way they are going to fire or censure even an incompetent whack-job is for him to, well, shoot somebody...

I hope for people in the US, this powerpoint presentation opens a lot of eyes...

Probably won't though...

re: #211 Obdicut

Given that many Muslims live here in the US-of-A without engaging in any infidel-killing, I'd have to say that it's patently obvious there are interpretations of the Koran that don't require Muslims to kill infidels.

There are muslims who have a much more moderate interpretation of the koran. Unfortunately for them, the islamists consider them apostates and worthy of death. To bring this back on topic, there was a muslim who spoke up during this presentation from hasan who disagreed with hasan's interpretation. hasan stared them down. You can learn more about that incident here. As with other religions, fundamentalists don't like moderates, and islam is no different.

re: #20 Athens Runaway

Seriously. Death by PowerPoint is how the Air Force punishes trains its soldiers, not the Army.

They have soldiers in the Air Force?

re: #219 Bob Levin

The only folks who could detain him, to start the ball rolling, would have been doctors. Psychiatrists. They would have to issue an order stating that he can be a danger to himself and others. To do that, there has to be a genuine possibility of diagnosis that cannot be confused with hyperbolic free speech.

Remember, the question is why, with all of these red flags, why didn't anyone do anything about it? Well, I explained that. There was no diagnosis that someone couldn't argue was a violation of his rights. It's not that no one noticed.

Really. If a Muslim at your job started talking about the justification to kill infidels at a meeting that had NOTHING to do with religion or related subjects, your company would have to go to a psychiatrist first before they intervened in any way.

You're being sarcastic, right?

re: #211 Obdicut

I'm not sure what the all caps are for. My point was that Jews are not killing people who plant on shabbos, despite a clear order to.

There is plenty of violent, near-genocidal text in the old testament/Torah-- and yet Jews are not genocidal, nor do they tend to wage war. The point is that even when there are very clear instructions and precedents in a religious text, that doesn't mean it can't be 'reinterpreted' to ameliorate that.

Given that many Muslims live here in the US-of-A without engaging in any infidel-killing, I'd have to say that it's patently obvious there are interpretations of the Koran that don't require Muslims to kill infidels.

This is a very, very bizarre conversation.

Registered since: Nov 11, 2009 at 6:52 pm
No. of comments posted: 95

Don't worry...you've only missed the discourse of about...9 years here...I am a late comer myself in 2006..

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

You said Sunday.

No, this is NOT a very, very bizarre conversation. What is bizarre is you bring up points, and have no facts to prove your points and then when you are asked to back up your comments, you balk.

Prove your points.

nonsense...you are being...silly, foolish, tautological and hyperbolic...
(all in one sentence too)

re: #220 Obdicut

I have no clue what the "I'm coming to kill you" line has to do with anything.

Do you agree that American Muslims do not want to kill the infidels, or do you really, really suspect every Muslim of the world of wanting to kill every non-Muslim in the world?

Three words for you
Nidal Malik Hasan

What was he, an American Baptist? Roman Catholic?? Amish !?!?!

re: #215 Obdicut

It's been altered hundreds of times, though-- the Wahabists were another bunch of 'alterers', going back to interpretations they preferreed, translations they preferred.

Interpretation of a text, however, doesn't require changing the text at all, just interpreting it. The Jewish tradition doesn't change the text, either, but that doesn't stop them from interpretation.

True, the koran has had revisions. But tell a muslim that, and many won't believe you.

re: #228 albusteve

nonsense...you are being...silly, foolish, tautological and hyperbolic...
(all in one sentence too)

Let me check my pants, I think I just pooped!

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

You said Sunday.

No, this is NOT a very, very bizarre conversation. What is bizarre is you bring up points, and have no facts to prove your points and then when you are asked to back up your comments, you balk.

Prove your points.

What points? To me it is a truism that language and interpretation of a text change over time. To have people insisting that somehow the Koran means the same thing now as it did back in Mohamed's day-- that's something I would expect a Wahhabist to say, not a non-Muslim.

re: #218 Oh no...Sand People!

Also...Mohammed spoke Fus'ha Arabic. The ONLY TRUE (according to them) way you can be a 'true Scotsman' Muslim is by reading the Koran in Arabic, any 'translations' into other languages aren't deemed as 'legit'.

The Arabic language itself has changed massively since the day of Mohammed-- and I don't think, though correct me if I'm wrong, that it was even a written language back in his day.

re: #207 Sharmuta

That's the thing with islam is there is no central body/hierarchy to oversee koranic interpretations like we have with the Catholic Church, for example. Muslims can get different interpretations from imam to imam. While one will say stoning isn't islamic, another will.

All the more reason to support Muslims who are trying to get away from Sharia-like interpretations.

Did the Army have any leg to stand on? If they thought Hasan was a dangerous man, what could they have done about it? In the civilian world, at least, you can't arrest a man for what he might do.

I'm not being funny... I'm disgusted that someone would be able to go as far as giving a slideshow about his sick, religious fantasies and nothing be done about it, but what could they have done?

re: #229 sattv4u2

Three words for you
Nidal Malik Hasan

What was he, an American Baptist? Roman Catholic?? Amish !?!?!

Okay. So you think that all American Muslims want to do what Hasan did?

re: #230 Sharmuta

True, the koran has had revisions. But tell a muslim that, and many won't believe you.

I didn't think I was talking to Muslims.

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

Except, Hasan was not being diagnosed, he was not getting therapy, he was someone walking around in his job talking about killing infidels.

This has NOTHING to do with classifying Islam a psychiatric disorder.

This has to do with a person making threats, according to the information he had inculcated into him from radical Islam.

Tell, me, what does this have to do with diagnoses? That's ignoring the real problem here.

Maybe if it had been listed in the Psych journals at Walter Reed so they could recognize it?

PJSD-Pre Jihad Stress Disorder.
An affliction only known to affect a minute fraction of the population, most frequently after attending Islamic Mosques and/or Madrassas of the Wahhabi sect.

Manifestations of this affliction include but are not limited to:
1. Denouncing western culture as immoral.
2. Admiration for those that cause the deaths of innocent civilians through random bombings.
3. Frequent religious themed correspondence with others who also seemingly share the affliction.
4. Feelings of persecution and a deeply held conviction that "others" are trying to destroy Islam.
5. Inappropriate behavior at work such as giving lectures on the Quran and how "infidels" should be killed.
6. Inability to behave civilly and with courtesy towards those not suffering from the affliction, particularly if female.
7. Indifference to studies and poor grades, also lax and lazy job performance due to inattention.
8. The acquisition of firearms and/or explosives for future use against "infidels."

If left untreated patients with this condition pose a severe risk both to themselves and others. Every effort should be made to immediately separate the patient from access to any type of weapon. The patient will best benefit from treatment when confined in a secure facility and contact with others sharing the affliction is curtailed.

Recommended course of treatment involves religious re-programming to be carried out by adherents of Islam not of the Wahhabi sect. Treatment may take from months to years to accomplish successfully and relapse is still possible even then. The patient should never be allowed access to weapons suitable for mass killings even after treatment is terminated.

*WARNING* By no means should the patient ever be allowed enrollment in any military organizations under any circumstances or any capacity whatsoever. Exposure to the military culture has been known to severely aggravate this condition most especially if the organization has any current or potential involvement in the Middle East or Asia.

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

Let me check my pants, I think I just pooped!

Obdicut is charming, but he's a whiny name caller too (from a previous thread)

re: #232 Obdicut

The Arabic language itself has changed massively since the day of Mohammed-- and I don't think, though correct me if I'm wrong, that it was even a written language back in his day.

Yes, it was certainly a written language, and it wasn't even ONE language. Almost every tribe has it's own dialect of Arabic.

Why don't you stop right here, you evidently are stating opinions, not facts and have no facts to back up your opinions.

You really are showing an ignorance of this subject in general.

re: #234 Obdicut

So you think that all American Muslims want to do what Hasan did?

Show me where I stated that. In EVERY post I said RADICAL Muslims to this day follow the "kill the infidel" phrase

And you wonder why I EMPHASIS!

re: #224 Sharmuta

There are muslims who have a much more moderate interpretation of the koran. Unfortunately for them, the islamists consider them apostates"

There are Christians who think the same thing of these moselms: namely that they are "bad muslims", and could turn into "true muislims" (i.e. jihadists) at the drop of a hat..

We in the West haave been through a Reformation and an Englightenment and have learned to see our Holy Scriptures as the work of human hands, the product of a particular point in history.

This does not mean that we have to see them as less divinely inspired, but it has made us a lot less literalist in interpreting them.

Islam and Islamic society has still not gone through this phase.

But the west is doing nothing to move the process along: our oil imports fund the Saudi monarchs who actively support Wahabism, one of the most virulently fundamentalist forms of Islam.

And secular Islamic states like Iran under Mossadegh in the 50's (and I dare say Saddam Hussein in Iraq in our decade) get swatted down because they are a nuisance to US foreign policy.

re: #220 Obdicut

I have no clue what the "I'm coming to kill you" line has to do with anything.

You said "[...] no text is literal, because we humans are not capable of actually taking literal meaning from a text-- subjectivity and Wittgenstein language-limits are always in play." I say bullshit. If I send you a death-threat, you will take it literally and not dither on about Wittgenstein and subjectivity. We humans are eminently capable of taking literal meaning from plain language.

Do you agree that American Muslims do not want to kill the infidels, or do you really, really suspect every Muslim of the world of wanting to kill every non-Muslim in the world?

I'm not talking about what individual Muslims want. I'm talking about the plain injunctions in the Koran that give license to those who do kill infidels. Which happens daily, all over the world, and sometimes here in the US.

You seem to think that because LGF does not tolerate blanket condemnation of all Muslims, somehow the religion is off the hook. It's not. At least not with me.

re: #211 Obdicut

I'm not sure what the all caps are for. My point was that Jews are not killing people who plant on shabbos, despite a clear order to.

You obviously know nothing about Jewish Law.

There is plenty of violent, near-genocidal text in the old testament/Torah-- and yet Jews are not genocidal, nor do they tend to wage war. The point is that even when there are very clear instructions and precedents in a religious text, that doesn't mean it can't be 'reinterpreted' to ameliorate that.

You have little understanding of the Torah and history.

Given that many Muslims live here in the US-of-A without engaging in any infidel-killing, I'd have to say that it's patently obvious there are interpretations of the Koran that don't require Muslims to kill infidels.

That is a ridiculous argument, does the paucity of lottery winners indicate that few people want to win the lottery?

This is a very, very bizarre conversation.

It would make more sense if you understood the subject you are pontificating on.

re: #241 Bagua

THOSE are gonna leave some nasty bruises!

re: #237 Walter L. Newton

Yes, it was certainly a written language, and it wasn't even ONE language. Almost every tribe has it's own dialect of Arabic.

Why don't you stop right here, you evidently are stating opinions, not facts and have no facts to back up your opinions.

You really are showing an ignorance of this subject in general.

I'm almost certain that it wasn't written down-- the Koran-- until after his death-- during a time when, as you say, the Arab language was being codified. It was almost entirely oral during Mohammed's day.

If it wasn't even one language, and every tribe has its own dialect-- doesn't that show that the Koran obviously changed, as it was rendered into that language?

I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to you; the claim that the Koran hasn't changed at all since it's inception is normally the claim of religious Islamic fanatics, not critics of Islam. Forgive me for being baffled.

re: #233 marjoriemoon

All the more reason to support Muslims who are trying to get away from Sharia-like interpretations.

Absolutely.

Did the Army have any leg to stand on? If they thought Hasan was a dangerous man, what could they have done about it? In the civilian world, at least, you can't arrest a man for what he might do.

I'm not sure what they could have done, but doing nothing wasn't the answer.

I'm not being funny... I'm disgusted that someone would be able to go as far as giving a slideshow about his sick, religious fantasies and nothing be done about it, but what could they have done?

The aspect that disturbs me the most is this was supposed to be a psychology presentation. Da'wa was more important to him in a professional setting than helping his colleagues improve their knowledge of psychology. That set off my flag, and would have regardless of the religion in question being presented.

re: #226 Walter L. Newton

Walter,

I'm talking about this particular case, on an army base, where most behavior is highly regulated, that is, based on regulation. In your case, someone could call the cops. The cops could take him away for the rest of the day, maybe charge him with making threatening statements. He calls his lawyer, and all of a sudden, everyone involved has more trouble than they care for. I just saw a scene like this in a movie made in 1942--The Devil and Miss Jones.

So Hasan would get released, and that wouldn't stop his plans--if this happened in the civilian world. To actually detain him as a danger to society, you would need a doctor, a psychiatrist, to say that he's a danger to others. The initial process can take three days, then there's a hearing.

If he appears to be rational and apologetic in the hearing, then he's released. There has to be diagnostic criteria to hold him longer.

The original question, remember, is how does he slip through the cracks? Right? He slipped through the cracks. I'm just telling you how this happens.

re: #241 Bagua

It would make more sense if you understood the subject you are pontificating on.

I don't know nearly enough, but I know there are plenty of proscriptions for death contained in the Torah. I also know that Jews do not follow through on these, and that even during the days of ancient Jewish custom, very few were put to death-- after all, they asked the Romans to do it.

My point was in favor of Jews, not against them.

That is a ridiculous argument, does the paucity of lottery winners indicate that few people want to win the lottery?

No, but the large number of people who buy lottery tickets show that they want to win the lottery. What a terrible analogy.

Do you, personally, believe that most American Muslims would prefer to see all infidels killed?

re: #243 Obdicut

I'm almost certain that it wasn't written down-- the Koran-- until after his death-- during a time when, as you say, the Arab language was being codified. It was almost entirely oral during Mohammed's day.

If it wasn't even one language, and every tribe has its own dialect-- doesn't that show that the Koran obviously changed, as it was rendered into that language?

I'm not sure why this is so upsetting to you; the claim that the Koran hasn't changed at all since it's inception is normally the claim of religious Islamic fanatics, not critics of Islam. Forgive me for being baffled.

Like I said, you have no real knowledge of this subject, this time period and the history that you are trying to address. Go do some research before you start arguing points on this topic.

re: #247 Walter L. Newton

Like I said, you have no real knowledge of this subject, this time period and the history that you are trying to address. Go do some research before you start arguing points on this topic.

Please tell me what I was wrong about in what I just said.

Was the Koran mainly passed by oral tradition until after Mohammed's death?

re: #245 Bob Levin

Walter,

I'm talking about this particular case, on an army base, where most behavior is highly regulated, that is, based on regulation. In your case, someone could call the cops. The cops could take him away for the rest of the day, maybe charge him with making threatening statements. He calls his lawyer, and all of a sudden, everyone involved has more trouble than they care for. I just saw a scene like this in a movie made in 1942--The Devil and Miss Jones.

So Hasan would get released, and that wouldn't stop his plans--if this happened in the civilian world. To actually detain him as a danger to society, you would need a doctor, a psychiatrist, to say that he's a danger to others. The initial process can take three days, then there's a hearing.

If he appears to be rational and apologetic in the hearing, then he's released. There has to be diagnostic criteria to hold him longer.

The original question, remember, is how does he slip through the cracks? Right? He slipped through the cracks. I'm just telling you how this happens.

In this case they could call the MP's. Don't give me this bullshit that doctors had to intervene, or that the military and his co-workers had limited avenues to pursue, you sound silly.

re: #221 Dreader1962

I read the PowerPoint and want to find out more about the two Angles - Michael and Gabriel. Which one is acute and which one is obtuse?

//

Anyway, this looks like some presentation slapped together the night before - probably one of the reasons why he received a bad OER from Walter Reed. I assume he was told to talk about the specific stresses encountered by Muslim soldiers - there was practically nothing that serves as professional insight or recommendations. Many of the slides were incomprehensible.

I've sat through these types of presentations; he probably read from each slide verbatim. I was attending one meeting where the guy was doing the 'PowerPoint Ranger' shtick and frequently used the word 'synergy'. At the end, he asked if there were any questions. Feeling particularly evil that day, I asked him what the word 'synergy' meant - he didn't know.

ha! Brilliant! and quoted for truth!