Dead Monitor Open Thread

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Don’t you hate it when you turn on your monitor and nothing happens? The 30” display for my Mac Pro desktop machine simply failed to light up this morning. No power light, USB ports don’t work, screen dark. I have two monitors, so I swapped the cables into the video card — the second monitor still worked in the other port, so it’s not the card. Unplugged and plugged in another power outlet, still nothing. He’s dead, Jim.

Good thing I bought an AppleCare extended warranty for this baby. Here’s an open thread while I visit the Apple store and use it.

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363 comments
1 Stormy  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:28:19am

AppleCare is pretty good as long as there are no signs of physical damage.

And I mean NO signs at all.

2 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:29:01am
Don’t you hate it when you turn on your monitor and nothing happens?

Yes.

3 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:29:20am

Lift-off! Space Shuttle…

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:31:10am

That’ll teach you to buy the monitor with the red case and stand.

6 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:33:05am

Hey, Charles is gone! Let’s PARTY!!
/

7 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:33:11am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Beck’s Guest List Included White Supremacists, Other Extremists

Yikes!

8 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:33:17am

I just hate when that happens.

Fortunately I have a couple of laptops on hand for travel and local emergencies.

9 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:34:54am

Love to see this play out on their anti PC commercials-The geek in glasses says, “would you like me to look up the apple store address on Bing for you?”

10 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:35:07am

1. I hate that hipster dufus in the commercials. Where was his cameo on Battlstar Galactica? Nowhere, that’s where. John Hodgeman RULES.

2. I hate my new ipod shuffle too. The engineering is brilliant, but the itunes interface has too much of Apples sanctimonious big brother complexity. I just want to see what’s on the ipod, and drag-and-drop or cut-and-paste stuff into and out of it. Why reinvent the wheel? !@#$%^&!

11 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

WHAT? (oh brother…)

12 borgcube  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:35:32am

Those are really nice screens. Never seen one go bad. OTOH, I seem to kill an iPod about every 8 months.

13 suchislife  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #10 keloyd

I have no problem with the mac guy, but I do love Hodgeman and I always wanted to see more Battlestar Galactica.

14 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:38:28am

re: #12 borgcube

Really? How do you kill an IPod? (yikes…I wouldn’t think that’s possible!)

15 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:39:08am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Just for -perspective, has anyone done this with Olbermann or Maddow? Oprah? The View?

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:40:24am

*sniff* *sniff*

Nobody liked my red-shirted ensign monitor joke.

*sniff*

17 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:40:47am

regarding our favourite anti vaccine celebrity idiot..the officail body count website…[Link: www.jennymccarthybodycount.com…]

18 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:42:16am

re: #13 suchislife

Those commercials so make me want to do a parody…

19 Bloodnok  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:42:18am

re: #14 J.S.

re: #12 borgcube

Really? How do you kill an IPod? (yikes…I wouldn’t think that’s possible!)

Get it wet. There is a senor in the headphone jack that will cause it to fail if it gets wet enough (and they won’t cover it under warrantee). You don’t even need to drop it in the sink or anything. Even using it in a light rain can kill it (speaking from experience).

20 Bloodnok  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #19 Bloodnok

Sensor, not senor. PIMF.

21 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

Just for -perspective, has anyone done this with Olbermann or Maddow? Oprah? The View?

all of those beautiful people are way off my radar

22 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:43:18am

Thanks for the warning… I would freak if that happened.
I’m notorious for never getting extended warranties… maybe you’ve convinced me re computer equipment.

23 Racer X  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:43:27am

Yeah well, Vista sucks.

24 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:43:49am

Well, since this is an open thread after all…

The wife and I rented “The Line” with Andy Garcia and Ray Liotta. Basically about the drug cartels, and shot in Tijuana. It was an odd little movie - disturbing in some ways, but overall the story resolved in a fairly interesting way. Any other lizards seen this movie?

25 drcordell  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:44:00am

This is the worst thing I’ve heard all morning. I’d love one of those 30” beasts. I just couldn’t justify dropping the extra coin vs. the 24” considering I already have a flatscreen TV in my room as it is.

26 Stan the Demanded Plan  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:44:10am

The other night someone said “LEAVE SARAH ALONE!”

Well here’s Chelsea Lately’s video

Youtube Video
27 countrockulot  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:45:20am

HELLO PEOPLE!! Wake up! Don’t you see?! Obama is trying to silence the truth by destroying the monitors of those with views he disagrees with?! Think about it: Maoist Oligachy Nirther Ilovebillayers Totalitarian Evil Robots! What does that spell? Moniter! *cries*

28 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:45:23am

My old hemispherical I mac G4 monitor is going strong after 5+ years.

I replaced the hard drive about 2 years ago, before it went out.

I can’t really upgrade the operating system anymore though.

When the economy improves, it will be new Mac time.

29 drcordell  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:45:26am

Oh, in other random off topic news. Ran into Chelsea Clinton on Saturday night during my birthday dinner with a few friends. She wasn’t looking to bad, for a Clinton.

30 borgcube  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:45:46am

re: #14 J.S.

Not sure. I have it interfacing with my navigation system in my car so I can have on-screen controls…along with a secret little gizmo I installed which circumvents the auto-disabling of the navigation system controls while moving. I think maybe it stays on all the time even if the car is turned off. Apple Store has been pretty good at taking them back. I just make sure I keep all original packaging and receipts now.

31 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:45:53am

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator
Why not take it to the top? Bill Ayers, Reverend Wright…
Those conservative guests are small potatoes.///

32 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:48:55am

re: #27 countrockulot

HELLO PEOPLE!! Wake up! Don’t you see?! Obama is trying to silence the truth by destroying the monitors of those with views he disagrees with?! Think about it: Maoist Oligachy Nirther Ilovebillayers Totalitarian Evil Robots! What does that spell? Moniter! *cries*

OMG!1! That makes complete sense! Except for the misspelling…

/Maybe it’s oppressive robots.

33 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:49:20am

there is nothing that I hate more than when McAfee hijacks my computer…

34 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #26 Stanley Sea
This from a self-proclaimed vodka junkie who keeps a vertically challenged middle-aged man for a pet?
/sarc/

35 Political Atheist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:49:50am

re: #31 tradewind

Good point, but I thought to stay with media types. I’m all for calling out Rush or Glenn Beck on what they say-or plainly agree with as per the guest. But I happen to find using a guest list for criticisms unhelpful. Challenging Olbermann feels a lot like going for the low fruit though… Same for Maddow.

36 waveriderca  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:49:54am

For anyone who has monitor envy, I understand. I used to use a 22” monitor and once i switched to a 28” monitor my productivity practically doubled. Nothing like having a word document open viewing 4 pages at once.

ttp[Link: www.newegg.com…]

37 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:16am

I saw that there were a whole bunch of Black conservatives on his show last week.

38 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:19am

re: #33 brookly red

there is nothing that I hate more than when McAfee hijacks my computer…

HAH!…McAfee is forever dude…like eternal

39 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:21am

re: #33 brookly red

Why would you put up with’ em? They hog space and slow you down to a crawl.

40 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:34am

re: #31 tradewind

Why not take it to the top? Bill Ayers, Reverend Wright…
Those conservative guests are small potatoes.///

That’s different.

Those extremists and radicals visited with BHO, or were his friends and mentors. The other radicals were guests of a talk show host. One runs the country, the other is a grave threat to the future of the Republic.

A little perspective, please!
//

41 waveriderca  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:43am

sorry link didn’t work. Anyways theres a 28” screen on newegg for 310$. It’s sweet.

42 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:50:56am

re: #37 Ben Hur
Oh, those. Uncle Toms and Oreos.
Not really black.
/do I have to/

43 sffilk  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:51:25am

The space shuttle is up safely! Yippee!!

44 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:51:40am

re: #39 tradewind

Why would you put up with’ em? They hog space and slow you down to a crawl.

got something better? I am all ears…

45 astronmr20  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:51:56am

Sounds like the power supply, Charles. But for what AppleCare costs (and for what the 30” Apple monitor costs), I’d have them sort it out, for sure.

46 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:03am

re: #43 sffilk

The space shuttle is up safely! Yippee!!

Can’t help but wonder when we’ll finally get around to retiring that rocket-powered El Camino.

47 samsgran1948  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:10am

re: #10 keloyd

1. I hate that hipster dufus in the commercials. Where was his cameo on Battlstar Galactica? Nowhere, that’s where. John Hodgeman RULES.

2. I hate my new ipod shuffle too. The engineering is brilliant, but the itunes interface has too much of Apples sanctimonious big brother complexity. I just want to see what’s on the ipod, and drag-and-drop or cut-and-paste stuff into and out of it. Why reinvent the wheel? !@#$%^&!

ACK!!! I asked for a new Shuffle for Christmas!. I’ve got one of the ancient white ones that do absolutely nothing but play music. There’s absolutely no way of seeing what’s playing or what’s coming up or making a playlist. It’s so old, it has only a tiny memory so when I plug it in to recharge it, I just move stuff in and out of the current list.

48 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:12am

re: #19 Bloodnok

Get it wet. There is a senor in the headphone jack that will cause it to fail if it gets wet enough (and they won’t cover it under warrantee). You don’t even need to drop it in the sink or anything. Even using it in a light rain can kill it (speaking from experience).

Mine fell out of my pocket on concrete right after I got it, before I could even get a case for it. 3 months later it crashed. Luckily I got it from Costco and I got them to replace it.

49 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:14am

re: #42 tradewind

Oh, those. Uncle Toms and Oreos.
Not really black.
/do I have to/

F*ck yeah you do.

50 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:40am

UCh.]

BBL

51 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:46am

re: #38 albusteve

HAH!…McAfee is forever dude…like eternal

I have a mac in mind, hehehe

52 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:52:50am

re: #40 Guanxi88
You’re right… I should keep my priorities straight.
After all, Beck has now received the ultimate in cultural icon status… he’s been played by Eric Cartman. Our youth are not safe!

53 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:53:19am

re: #46 Guanxi88

Can’t help but wonder when we’ll finally get around to retiring that rocket-powered El Camino.

[Link: www.space.com…] not long

54 acwgusa  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:53:35am

Just to tweak the rabid Apple Fanboys…

/But, I thought that Apple Products were given to Steve Jobs by God Himself, and were infailable!/

55 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:54:38am

re: #54 acwgusa

Just to tweak the rabid Apple Fanboys…

/But, I thought that Apple Products were given to Steve Jobs by God Himself, and were infailable!/

You got it backwards. Jobs bestowed them on Him.

56 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:55:27am

re: #18 Rightwingconspirator

Those commercials so make me want to do a parody…

Novell did a pretty good parody as a linux ad.

Youtube Video
57 acwgusa  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:55:32am

re: #55 Guanxi88

You got it backwards. Jobs bestowed them on Him.

/To which God replies, “I’m jailbreaking this iPhone, Steve”.

58 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #54 acwgusa

Just to tweak the rabid Apple Fanboys…

/But, I thought that Apple Products were given to Steve Jobs by God Himself, and were infailable!/

I held out as long as I could from getting an Ipod, got it about 9 months ago. I am still loyal to my ThinkPads for computers though.

59 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:55:52am

re: #44 brookly red
Well, besides getting a mac ( my recommendation), go to AVG Free and download their free antivirus software, which has been rated just as effective ( and hogs less space).
If you have to stick with McAffee, go into your machine and disable as many of the add-ons that really have nothing to do with antivirus protection as you can find.
Lavasoft makes a good free spyware tool to use as well. Can’t remember the name of it, but that is their website.
I so do not miss that stuff.

60 yatesc  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:56:07am

Wow, surreal: I literally just got back to my desk after hitting an Apple Store to buy AppleCare for my 24” LED Cinema Display. (The one year anniversary of its purchase is coming up.)

What are the odds?

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:58:11am

I washed a flash drive in the laundry this morning.

It still works.

That is really good news.

Know why? SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR FLASH DRIVE!

You’d think I’d be more careful.

62 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:58:17am

re: #59 tradewind

Well, besides getting a mac ( my recommendation), go to AVG Free and download their free antivirus software, which has been rated just as effective ( and hogs less space).
If you have to stick with McAffee, go into your machine and disable as many of the add-ons that really have nothing to do with antivirus protection as you can find.
Lavasoft makes a good free spyware tool to use as well. Can’t remember the name of it, but that is their website.
I so do not miss that stuff.

AVG huh? others have recommended it too… can’t wait to tell McAfee to piss off.

63 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:58:42am

I run linux on a machine I built myself for $300. I think both mac and PC users are getting ripped off.
(but I still have an ipod)

64 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:58:53am

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I washed a flash drive in the laundry this morning.

It still works.

That is really good news.

Know why? SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR FLASH DRIVE!

You’d think I’d be more careful.

/For $700 I hope you got a blow job too

65 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 11:59:59am

re: #14 J.S.
Let it fall onto a platter of bbq and have the sauce gum up the jack hole. I tried everything… nada.
That was my first Ipod, years ago. Haven’t killed one since.

66 samsgran1948  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:02:31pm

re: #39 tradewind

Why would you put up with’ em? They hog space and slow you down to a crawl.

I got sick of it, too, and eliminated it. A few months down the road, my computer was hijacked by a virus that would not let me (or anyone else) access the OS. My favorite geek had to wipe the drive and rebuild the entire system. Five months later, I’m still trying to get things back to normal.

67 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:06:05pm

re: #66 samsgran1948

I got sick of it, too, and eliminated it. A few months down the road, my computer was hijacked by a virus that would not let me (or anyone else) access the OS. My favorite geek had to wipe the drive and rebuild the entire system. Five months later, I’m still trying to get things back to normal.

I got a worm that came right through the McAfee… I hate them.

68 Clemente  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:09:03pm

re: #67 brookly red

I got a worm that came right through the McAfee… I hate them.

In the last few weeks I’ve killed three little nasties. Every one on a McAfee “protected” system. Their stuff’s worse than useless.

69 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:09:17pm

re: #13 suchislife

That mac guy is a bit of a Rorshach test, and I wonder to what degree they meant to do that. He couldn’t be more pleasant and civil, but sometimes you meet people who are acting so *nice* that surely they are up to something sinister.

Re #47-samsgran1948,
My shuffle sounds brilliant, but always starts back to track #1 when recharging, so extra capacity is not good for people who listen to audio books or podcasts. It also clips several seconds off my mp3s. CNET has other substitutes for Itunes, but not yet for the newest Shuffle, so in the near term we must bend to Steve Jobs’ capricious and mercurial whims.

70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:09:45pm

re: #64 Pepper Fox

It’s a flash drive with a VERY specialized design CAD thingy in it. If I ruin it? Company gives me new one. If I lose it? I have to buy it.

YIKES!

71 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:10:24pm

From the commercials I was led to believe to that all things Apple are fail proof while all things PC are doom ‘n gloom. Can I not trust ANYTHING on TV anymore?

72 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:11:22pm

re: #68 Clemente

In the last few weeks I’ve killed three little nasties. Every one on a McAfee “protected” system. Their stuff’s worse than useless.

I spend more time waiting for their updates to load then anything else… I hate them with a deep passion.

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #71 CommonCents

I’m not cool enough for a mac. That MS guy on TV is too cool for me.

74 samsgran1948  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:12:44pm

re: #67 brookly red

After I dumped the 360 (is that McAfee?), I downloaded and installed several hunter-killer programs that I ran on a fairly frequent schedule. But the damn worm or virus or whatever the thing was simply munched its way through the whole lot of them. I will say that my favorite geek was really impressed with the virus, though. He said that he’d never seen one hijack the entire system like that before. I can’t tell you how special that made me feel.

75 Kragar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:13:48pm

Met the author Brandon Sanderson yesterday afternoon. He seemed like a nice guy.

76 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:14:55pm

What product was it they got in trouble for, when their spokesperson said the battery was designed to last “for/4 years?”

She said it aloud, so “for years” could mean 1.5 years or “four” years.

My Creative Labs knockoff is 6 years old, clunky as the devil, and has a text interface from Carl Sagan’s digital watch from 1979, but it won’t die.

77 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:15:07pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m not cool enough for a mac. That MS guy on TV is too cool for me.

Speaking of cool. I like the Hughmanatee.

78 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:15:31pm

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I’m not cool enough for a mac. That MS guy on TV is too cool for me.

TV isn’t cool either… that could be it :)

79 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:17:33pm

re: #74 samsgran1948

After I dumped the 360 (is that McAfee?), I downloaded and installed several hunter-killer programs that I ran on a fairly frequent schedule. But the damn worm or virus or whatever the thing was simply munched its way through the whole lot of them. I will say that my favorite geek was really impressed with the virus, though. He said that he’d never seen one hijack the entire system like that before. I can’t tell you how special that made me feel.

I suspect they create them (worms) just to sell more product, or punish those who stray…

80 samsgran1948  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #54 acwgusa

Just to tweak the rabid Apple Fanboys…

/But, I thought that Apple Products were given to Steve Jobs by God Himself, and were infailable!/

God, I hate Apple Fanboys! (and girls) They are so smug and so convinced that they are the Chosen.

My first personal computer was an Apple IIc, a really nifty little machine. But before I knew it, Apple had come out with the Mac and had totally orphaned the IIc. (If it hadna’t been stolen, I’d probably be using it to run my business right now.) I’ve never bought an Apple computer since then.

81 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:20:12pm

re: #60 yatesc

Welcome, hatchling.

82 sffilk  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:20:59pm

re: #46 Guanxi88

Can’t help but wonder when we’ll finally get around to retiring that rocket-powered El Camino.

Next year, unfortunately.

83 badger1970  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:21:00pm

re: #79 brookly red

..like a software engineer who gets paid to fix bugs on a per bug basis on his own software…or as stated, just a shakedown /

84 Irenicum  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:21:56pm

I don’t know if anyone else has posted this, but the Daily Beast’s Max Blumenthal has a piece about Sarah Palin’s ghostwriters’ unsavory associations. ht/Sully

85 nature boy  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:23:15pm

Can I be proud of my 15” BenQ monitor?

86 CommonCents  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:23:49pm

re: #84 Irenicum

I don’t know if anyone else has posted this, but the Daily Beast’s Max Blumenthal has a piece about Sarah Palin’s ghostwriters’ unsavory associations. ht/Sully

I find it difficult to imagine that something negative about Sarah Palin hasn’t already been posted.

87 Thor-Zone  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:23:58pm

Saw an interesting bumper sticker today…

“Once you pull the pin on Mr. Hangranade, he is no longer your friend.”

88 bosforus  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:26:09pm
Dead Monitor Open Thread

Not sure which is worse, that, or making a website IE compatible. Actually, I am sure. The latter. Buying a new monitor takes an hour or so out of your day. Making a website IE compatible, however…

89 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:26:20pm

re: #43 sffilk

The space shuttle is up safely! Yippee!!

Kaspersky

90 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:27:31pm

BAH - you with your 24 and 30 inch screens - I can see everything on my system ( a 14” laptop combined + bifocal lenses + a hunch in my back + darker lighting to compensate for the inadequate lcd screen) that you can see with your Monsieour le fancie pantes good posture and healthy lighting and pixels at every point of your field of vision.

91 Thor-Zone  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:28:42pm

re: #71 CommonCents

Can I not trust ANYTHING on TV anymore?

Nope…never should have. It’s all so much BS. Great for entertainment though.

92 acwgusa  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:29:24pm

re: #80 samsgran1948

God, I hate Apple Fanboys! (and girls) They are so smug and so convinced that they are the Chosen.

My first personal computer was an Apple IIc, a really nifty little machine. But before I knew it, Apple had come out with the Mac and had totally orphaned the IIc. (If it hadna’t been stolen, I’d probably be using it to run my business right now.) I’ve never bought an Apple computer since then.

I’ve got a PC and a Mac Mini on my desk, so I’m only half smug. If I buy a hybrid, then I’ll be smugtastic.

93 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:29:26pm

Dan Quayle wrote a book too. How long did it take for him to disappear after leaving office? He can still beat Carrie Prejean Caribou Barbie in a spelling contest.

94 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:29:28pm

if you plan to sell weed door to door, make sure you know where the cops live …

[Link: www.krgv.com…]

95 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:29:47pm

re: #89 albusteve

what?…wrong post
Kaspersky is a security program

96 acwgusa  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:30:30pm

re: #93 keloyd

Dan Quayle wrote a book too. How long did it take for him to disappear after leaving office? He can still beat Carrie Prejean Caribou Barbie in a spelling contest.

Well, to be fair, Dan did color outside the lines in his book. His crayon slipped.

/

97 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:31:12pm

re: #90 keloyd

BAH - you with your 24 and 30 inch screens - I can see everything on my system ( a 14” laptop combined + bifocal lenses + a hunch in my back + darker lighting to compensate for the inadequate lcd screen) that you can see with your Monsieour le fancie pantes good posture and healthy lighting and pixels at every point of your field of vision.

Still have a couple working Compaq Aero SVGAs on a shelf. I’ve got to
learn how to sell on eBay.

98 Irenicum  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #86 CommonCents

Pretty much true. What he mentions is stuff we’ve already known for a while.

99 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #84 Irenicum

I don’t know if anyone else has posted this, but the Daily Beast’s Max Blumenthal has a piece about Sarah Palin’s ghostwriters’ unsavory associations. ht/Sully

It’s too bad Max didn’t squeeze in a link from LGF. :(

100 Irenicum  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:33:08pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

Well put! Charles gets no respect, no respect at all!

101 steve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:36:11pm

And now for something totally OT. If there is one for this thread.

Handheld fusion reactor on the way?

[Link: dvice.com…]

102 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:38:03pm

re: #101 steve

And now for something totally OT. If there is one for this thread.

Handheld fusion reactor on the way?

[Link: dvice.com…]

That’s better than the radioactive crap in 1950s science kits!

104 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:39:22pm

SHOOT YER MONITOR!

105 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:39:53pm

I bet Dan Quayle at least wrote his own book - maybe on lined paper, maybe even in cursive handwriting, maybe where he connected all the dots already to make that picture of a dinosaur, maybe using other words to avoid ‘potatoes’, but still it’s all him in that book.

Really, politicians are already all about words, words, words. How can you brag on your bachelors communications and poli sci degree and need a ghost writer?

Devil his due - Obama didn’t even use another person for the audio version of his book. It’s HIS voice on tape. The cussing parts are really funny in Our Great Leader’s voice.

107 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:41:30pm

re: #106 MandyManners

That last one would be a real pisser.

or as we say in Boston … “wicked pissa.”

108 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:44:36pm

Ok. I’ll admit it. I love my zune and santa has already been told there needs to be a ZuneHD32 in my stocking. I was expecting a lot more apple fanboi bashing in this thread, I’m a little disappointed.

109 Clemente  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:44:53pm

re: #72 brookly red

I spend more time waiting for their updates to load then anything else… I hate them with a deep passion.

As mentioned, AVG is very good. I use and recommend one called Avast. Another good free one is Avira Antivir. Removing McAfee (using the tool) and adopting one (only use one!) of these three may help responsiveness a lot.

Installing Lavasoft’s AdAware and/or Safer Networking’s Spybot, and possibly a free firewall may give you peace of mind.

I strongly recommended keeping up-to-date copies of ComboFix and Malwarebytes Anti-Malware tucked in a folder on your PC or a flash drive, as the obnoxious-type bugs like to block your network connection, and both obnoxious and sneaky bugs may attempt to pre-empt downloads of bug removal programs.

For all but ComboFix, I usually just go to FileHippo. I get ComboFix off the link at bleepingcomputer. Read the how-to first.

110 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:45:15pm

re: #107 _RememberTonyC

or as we say in Boston … “wicked pissa.”

Kind of like the end of the game last night. I had to take off earlier before I got a chance to rub it in a bit.

111 filetandrelease  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:46:15pm

re: #101 steve

And now for something totally OT. If there is one for this thread.

Handheld fusion reactor on the way?

[Link: dvice.com…]

With one of those I could afford to power a bigger boat!

112 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:47:50pm

I tuned into Rush Limbaugh’s show for a few minutes today, and he said something I posted here over the weekend regarding the KSM trial in NYC. I posted that because the POTUS himself has said that waterboarding is torture, and KSM’s confession and guilty plea came after being waterboarded, there seems to be a chance that much of the evidence, including his confession could be considered inadmissable because it was admittedly obtained under torture. And if this comes to pass, the Judge may be forced to tell the jury that none of the incriminating material the government will use in its prosecution of KSM can be considered. And that COULD mean that KSM walks. And if KSM walks, I think a lot of people will blame Obama for allowing this trial to take place in a US court with all the rights of US citizens afforded to KSM. And if that happens, I cannot imagine how damaging that will be in future elections.

113 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:48:44pm

re: #109 Clemente

As mentioned, AVG is very good. I use and recommend one called Avast. Another good free one is Avira Antivir. Removing McAfee (using the tool) and adopting one (only use one!) of these three may help responsiveness a lot.

Installing Lavasoft’s AdAware and/or Safer Networking’s Spybot, and possibly a free firewall may give you peace of mind.

I strongly recommended keeping up-to-date copies of ComboFix and Malwarebytes Anti-Malware tucked in a folder on your PC or a flash drive, as the obnoxious-type bugs like to block your network connection, and both obnoxious and sneaky bugs may attempt to pre-empt downloads of bug removal programs.

For all but ComboFix, I usually just go to FileHippo. I get ComboFix off the link at bleepingcomputer. Read the how-to first.

thanks I will look into it…

114 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:48:48pm

re: #110 RogueOne

Kind of like the end of the game last night. I had to take off earlier before I got a chance to rub it in a bit.

that was surreal. Belichick never screws up like that. I can’t believe he didn’t trust his defense.

115 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:49:29pm

re: #112 _RememberTonyC

Maybe we shouldn’t have waterboarded him.

116 filetandrelease  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:49:45pm

re: #112 _RememberTonyC

I tuned into Rush Limbaugh’s show for a few minutes today, and he said something I posted here over the weekend regarding the KSM trial in NYC. I posted that because the POTUS himself has said that waterboarding is torture, and KSM’s confession and guilty plea came after being waterboarded, there seems to be a chance that much of the evidence, including his confession could be considered inadmissable because it was admittedly obtained under torture. And if this comes to pass, the Judge may be forced to tell the jury that none of the incriminating material the government will use in its prosecution of KSM can be considered. And that COULD mean that KSM walks. And if KSM walks, I think a lot of people will blame Obama for allowing this trial to take place in a US court with all the rights of US citizens afforded to KSM. And if that happens, I cannot imagine how damaging that will be in future elections.

Possibly Obama’s worst move to date, although it is hard to judge.

117 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:50:17pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

Maybe we shouldn’t have waterboarded him.

maybe we shouldn’t have treated him like a US citizen either.

118 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:50:23pm

re: #100 Irenicum

Well put! Charles gets no respect, no respect at all!

I’m glad Max is reporting on this story, but the first place I heard about it was LGF, and if Max is going to delve into Stacy McCain, he should likewise look at LGF for research purposes.

As for the respect- I think we’ve learned in the blogosphere that can be a pretty fickle thing. Many of those that once respected Charles now don’t, and many who once attacked him are now forgetting their attacks and behaving as though LGF is the best thing since sliced bread. I trust Charles knows who truly respects him and who is putting on a show.

119 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:51:19pm

re: #112 _RememberTonyC

I tuned into Rush Limbaugh’s show for a few minutes today, and he said something I posted here over the weekend regarding the KSM trial in NYC. I posted that because the POTUS himself has said that waterboarding is torture, and KSM’s confession and guilty plea came after being waterboarded, there seems to be a chance that much of the evidence, including his confession could be considered inadmissable because it was admittedly obtained under torture. And if this comes to pass, the Judge may be forced to tell the jury that none of the incriminating material the government will use in its prosecution of KSM can be considered. And that COULD mean that KSM walks. And if KSM walks, I think a lot of people will blame Obama for allowing this trial to take place in a US court with all the rights of US citizens afforded to KSM. And if that happens, I cannot imagine how damaging that will be in future elections.

The trial might not take place for another four years.

120 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:51:32pm

re: #116 filetandrelease

Possibly Obama’s worst move to date, although it is hard to judge.


if KSM walks, or there is a terror attack on NYC during the trial, Obama will have to “man up” and accept the consequences. But I sure hope they convict KSM and NYC remains safe.

121 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:28pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

Maybe we shouldn’t have waterboarded him.

Maybe BHO should not have stopped his military trial in the first place.

122 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:41pm

re: #121 MandyManners

We have a winner!

123 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:45pm

re: #119 MandyManners

The trial might not take place for another four years.

really? it will be delayed that long? don’t people afforded the rights of US citizens have the right to a “speedy trial?”

124 gonecamping  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:46pm

What I don’t like is turning on the computer( or logging on another user) and hearing the dvd drive spin up like a jet turbine. Not sure what causes it, but it happens once in a while and I have to shut down and reboot because it sounds like it will self destruct.

125 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:52pm

re: #119 MandyManners

The trial might not take place for another four years.

well if they are held in NY they won’t last 4 yrs… IMO

126 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:52:58pm

Ritter says the stimulus has helped shore up areas of the state budget, like higher education and unemployment benefits. He believes it also created jobs in transportation, water and weatherization projects. But Ritter says the big job creation is still to come. “I do think the administration may have oversold the early job creation

Ha, do you know what “winterization projects” means? They trained 60 people with federal money on how to use weather stripping. Really.

What a bunch of bullshit.

I have sent out 210 resumes this past year, almost everyone to a job that I highly qualified for. I received not even a SINGLE phone screen from all those submissions, and only 2 email replies to my submissions. I am a programmer of over 25 years experience.

Obama, we got a problem here.

127 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:53:21pm

re: #122 McSpiff

We have a winner!

*curtsey*

128 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:53:38pm

re: #114 _RememberTonyC

that was surreal. Belichick never screws up like that. I can’t believe he didn’t trust his defense.

I said earlier that the amount of respect/fear that belichick showed Peyton by going for it on that side of the field rather than just punt to him just gave Peyton the MVP award again. No way belichick does something like that if he’s playing against anyone else with any other quarterback.

129 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:54:06pm

re: #123 _RememberTonyC

really? it will be delayed that long? don’t people afforded the rights of US citizens have the right to a “speedy trial?”

Has KSM waived that right?

130 bosforus  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:54:25pm

re: #124 gonecamping

Got a dvd in there?

131 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:54:59pm

re: #125 brookly red

well if they are held in NY they won’t last 4 yrs… IMO

It all depends on the length of the prosecution’s case and the defense case.

132 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #129 MandyManners

Has KSM waived that right?

i have no idea … but he did offer to plead guilty … before we gave him the rights of a US citizen. I guess he changed his mind

133 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:55:24pm

British fascists praise Israeli fascist


It is important to note that, just as Nick Griffin doesn’t speak for Britons, neither does Eli Yishai speak for Israelis (although he really should resign from his post as a government minister if he continues in this way, as argued previously on this site).

Both Britain and Israel are diverse, multicultural democratic countries with freedom of religion legally protected.

Nick Griffin and Eli Yishai both push a politics of despair, where their vision of what their country should be clashes with how the nation is in reality. Their extreme nationalism runs against the natural flow of their nations, and alienates all but the most bigoted.

full article : [Link: www.hurryupharry.org…]

134 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #124 gonecamping

What I don’t like is turning on the computer( or logging on another user) and hearing the dvd drive spin up like a jet turbine. Not sure what causes it, but it happens once in a while and I have to shut down and reboot because it sounds like it will self destruct.

Check your stabilizers and the wing flaps. That usually causes those sorts of vibrational noises.

135 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:56:11pm

re: #132 _RememberTonyC

i have no idea … but he did offer to plead guilty … before we gave him the rights of a US citizen. I guess he changed his mind

I didn’t know that.

136 BarleyWine  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:56:44pm

CBS 60 Minutes:
B-Rex

Lesley Stahl meets the inspiration for the lead character in the classic film Jurassic Park and reports on how famed dinosaur hunter Jack Horner is shaking up the paleontology world.

Dino Chicken

Give paleontologist Jack Horner five years and he’ll give you a “Dino Chicken.”

Evo Devo

It might sound like the name of a rock band but it’s short for “Evolutionary Developmental Biology.”

137 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:57:03pm

re: #131 MandyManners

It all depends on the length of the prosecution’s case and the defense case.

it also depends on the other prisoners access to them…

138 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:57:28pm

re: #135 MandyManners

I didn’t know that.

I thought he offered to martyr himself a few years ago. He’d plee guilty if they gave him a death penalty.

139 Jimmah  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:57:47pm

Convicted Tehran Jewish teen ‘denied a fair trial’


Yaghoghil Shaolian, the Jewish teenager arrested for taking part in the Tehran electoral protests in June, has been sentenced to two and a half years in prison, accused of espionage. An international effort to protect the Jewish teenager’s rights in jail has intensified in recent days.

continued : [Link: www.hurryupharry.org…]

140 gonecamping  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:58:17pm

re: #130 bosforus
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Yesterday my son logged my account off and logged his on (WIN xp) and the computer sounded like it was taking off. Shut down and restarted later with no problem…did not look to see if a disc was in the drive, I know the drive was not used before or after the problem.

141 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 12:58:39pm

Slight thought experiment here. Assuming that the water boarded confession gets thrown out…

How did we end up looking at KSM in the first place? What evidence was used to justify his capture in the first place? Would any of this be admissible to a Federal Trial? How about Military Tribunal? Obviously a confession is the slam dunk for the prosecution but that can’t be the only evidence we have on this guy. I mean hell, you send the CIA to pick me up and water board me I’ll probably confess to being a unicorn. So that can’t be the only evidence we have. Is there a possibility of getting this additional evidence used in trial? Would we want to if that involves disclosing intelligence assets or other matters of national security?

BO has certainly given me plenty to mull over.

142 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:00:31pm

This trial is win-win for Obama and Democrats in Congress. In the unlikely event KSM or anyone else is found not guilty, the Sunday Morning talking heads agreed we can keep them in jail legally forever because of their terrorism. We will likely hold back on charges just in case we can’t execute them in trial #1, then we can try them on something else to avoid double jeopardy but still get the job done. They also get to rake W over the coals just in time for the 2010 elections when his administration’s sloppiness (inadmissable evidence due to torture, poor organization at Gitmo in the early yests, etc.) starts making the trial more difficult.

143 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:01:47pm

re: #142 keloyd

This trial is win-win for Obama and Democrats in Congress. In the unlikely event KSM or anyone else is found not guilty, the Sunday Morning talking heads agreed we can keep them in jail legally forever because of their terrorism. We will likely hold back on charges just in case we can’t execute them in trial #1, then we can try them on something else to avoid double jeopardy but still get the job done. They also get to rake W over the coals just in time for the 2010 elections when his administration’s sloppiness (inadmissable evidence due to torture, poor organization at Gitmo in the early yests, etc.) starts making the trial more difficult.

uuuh, no.

144 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:02:27pm

re: #139 Jimmah

Convicted Tehran Jewish teen ‘denied a fair trial’


continued : [Link: www.hurryupharry.org…]


Thank you for posting that, Jimmah. iran has another hostage to add to its list of innocent people that are being held as insurance policies against attacks from the USA and Israel.

145 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:03:01pm

re: #144 _RememberTonyC

Thank you for posting that, Jimmah. iran has another hostage to add to its list of innocent people that are being held as insurance policies against attacks from the USA and Israel.

That list would be the census of Iran. The whole people are held hostage.

146 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:03:47pm

re: #143 brookly red

please elaborate.

If it was the indefinite detention without trial part - it was George Will on ABC who said we could get away with that.

147 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:04:15pm

re: #137 brookly red

it also depends on the other prisoners access to them…

He’ll be very, very safe.

148 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:04:45pm

re: #138 RogueOne

I thought he offered to martyr himself a few years ago. He’d plee guilty if they gave him a death penalty.

Now he has a chance to skate.

149 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:05:27pm

re: #141 McSpiff

Would we want to if that involves disclosing intelligence assets or other matters of national security?

Aren’t you excited that lawyers working for al-qaeda leadership will get the power of discovery?

150 Gus  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:06:23pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Ritter says the stimulus has helped shore up areas of the state budget, like higher education and unemployment benefits. He believes it also created jobs in transportation, water and weatherization projects. But Ritter says the big job creation is still to come. “I do think the administration may have oversold the early job creation

Ha, do you know what “winterization projects” means? They trained 60 people with federal money on how to use weather stripping. Really.

What a bunch of bullshit.

I have sent out 210 resumes this past year, almost everyone to a job that I highly qualified for. I received not even a SINGLE phone screen from all those submissions, and only 2 email replies to my submissions. I am a programmer of over 25 years experience.

Obama, we got a problem here.

Bullshit probably has more value.

Here’s the Denver Post’s jobs results for “weatherization”:

Sorry, we didn’t find any weatherization jobs in Denver, CO.

* Check your spelling and avoid abbreviations.
* Include state
* Use the Guided Search menu to the left to expand your results.
* Try more general search keywords.

8 billion dollars worth and the claim was that it would employ 67,000 people. The link they have there to the White House if a dead link that will give you a 404 error. Funny you know, for an 8 billion dollar program and getting a dead link.

151 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:07:15pm

re: #149 Sharmuta

Aren’t you excited that lawyers working for al-qaeda leadership will get the power of discovery?

this makes me spitting mad … i cannot believe how naive President Obama and Eric Holder are being. This COULD be their Waterloo …

152 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:07:15pm

re: #146 keloyd

please elaborate.

If it was the indefinite detention without trial part - it was George Will on ABC who said we could get away with that.

Well it could be very likley that he will walk, lot’s of Dems still love their country & object to this move & Bush is not running in 2010.

153 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #149 Sharmuta

Aren’t you excited that lawyers working for al-qaeda leadership will get the power of discovery?

Or, if the defendants serve as their own counsel!

154 bosforus  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:07:45pm

re: #140 gonecamping

I’m not sure if I can help much. All I know is that when a comp starts up it’ll check all the drives to look for any kind of boot disk that it may think you want to run. I don’t know why it would whir with no dvd in the drive and it’s also weird that even if you have a dvd in the drive that it doesn’t stop whirring. Stupid computers.

155 hc4bo  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:07:57pm

And I thought apple products were the epitome of Perfection itself …


PC or a mac … !?!

156 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #153 MandyManners

Or, if the defendants serve as their own counsel!


luckily, the trial will not be televised …

157 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:08:55pm

If any attorneys are goofing off at work blogging here, can’t this KSM et al. trial be in a FISA court? Then, won’t the whole thing be done in total secret, with limitations on discovery, what details go in the public record, and no audio/video of the trial itself?

Someone on MSNBC was in a state this morning about whether we had to name Afghan informants in the trial and blow their cover - getting them killed - in order to secure a guilty verdict.

158 Gus  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:09:18pm

re: #150 Gus 802

Oops, the claim was 87,000 jobs. So with 8 billion dollars that almost 92,000 dollars per imaginary job.

159 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:09:42pm

re: #149 Sharmuta

Aren’t you excited that lawyers working for al-qaeda leadership will get the power of discovery?

This entire circus makes my blood boil.

160 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Now he has a chance to skate.

Found it.
[Link: www.bloomberg.com…]

Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) — Self-described Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four co-defendants today offered in a Guantanamo Bay courtroom to plead guilty to charges that could lead to the death penalty.

The five reached agreement to “announce our confessions and plea in full,” according to a document read in court by Judge Stephen Henley, an Army colonel.

161 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:11:31pm

re: #151 _RememberTonyC

this makes me spitting mad … i cannot believe how naive President Obama and Eric Holder are being. This COULD be their Waterloo …

well here in ultra-lib NY the word on the street is WTF?!… this was the last freakin straw for a lot of folks.

162 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:12:37pm

re: #157 keloyd

lawhawk said when this first came out that there will be more lawsuits on this issue. I’m hoping something will happen to put this back in a tribunal where it belongs.

163 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:12:39pm

re: #157 keloyd

If any attorneys are goofing off at work blogging here, can’t this KSM et al. trial be in a FISA court? Then, won’t the whole thing be done in total secret, with limitations on discovery, what details go in the public record, and no audio/video of the trial itself?

Someone on MSNBC was in a state this morning about whether we had to name Afghan informants in the trial and blow their cover - getting them killed - in order to secure a guilty verdict.

The fact that the FISC is a non adversarial court probably makes this unworkable. It’s more like a grand jury than a trial court.

164 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:13:33pm

re: #115 Decatur Deb

Maybe we shouldn’t have waterboarded him.

Makes no difference. We didn’t Mirandize him, either, so none of his statements since capture are going to be admissible in a civilian court, in all likelihood.

One could hope that the government realized this when assigning KSM to such a court, rather than a military tribunal, but felt that their other evidence would be strong enough to obtain a conviction regardless, and that it would be accepted.

Of course, that’s not the only possibility. The government could also be conniving to use the trial as an indictment of the last Administration, and will expend most of it’s effort blaming Bush rather than conducting an effective prosecution. Or, the government could simply be incompetent and has no plan at all, preferring to stumble through the fallout on an ad hoc basis as it occurs.

I suppose we’ll find out, one way or the other.

165 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:14:04pm

re: #159 McSpiff

This entire circus makes my blood boil.

Me too. Not the least of which is the presumption of guilt by the Executive Branch, which is completely un-American.

166 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:14:50pm

re: #165 Sharmuta

Me too. Not the least of which is the presumption of guilt by the Executive Branch, which is completely un-American.

Not sure I follow you there.

167 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:14:56pm

Was I absent the day America became afraid of fair trials? We’re better than this.

168 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:15:03pm

re: #150 Gus 802

8 billion dollars worth and the claim was that it would employ 67,000 people. The link they have there to the White House if a dead link that will give you a 404 error. Funny you know, for an 8 billion dollar program and getting a dead link.

Try winterization houses. I remember the original article, it was about 60 people who were trained. No where did it imply that they even got jobs, just training. Even 60 jobs winterizing is NOTHING in the big scheme of things.

169 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:15:37pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Was I absent the day America became afraid of fair trials? We’re better than this.

A civillian trial cannot be fair in this case.

170 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:16:35pm

re: #141 McSpiff

Slight thought experiment here. Assuming that the water boarded confession gets thrown out…

How did we end up looking at KSM in the first place? What evidence was used to justify his capture in the first place? Would any of this be admissible to a Federal Trial? How about Military Tribunal? Obviously a confession is the slam dunk for the prosecution but that can’t be the only evidence we have on this guy. I mean hell, you send the CIA to pick me up and water board me I’ll probably confess to being a unicorn. So that can’t be the only evidence we have. Is there a possibility of getting this additional evidence used in trial? Would we want to if that involves disclosing intelligence assets or other matters of national security?

BO has certainly given me plenty to mull over.

The government certainly has other evidence to present, as noted above, which will be admissible in a civilian court. Whether it is sufficient to obtain a conviction and survive admissibility challenges won’t be known until later. We’ll likely find out what it is relatively soon, as it will have to be turned over to the defense and will probably be made public at that time as well.

171 Locker  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:17:00pm

Waterloo! Waterloo! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! ODS fires are burning low, better stoke that shit up!

Will this be the moment he fails? (oh ho!)
Or maybe now! (he he!)
I’ve been predicting it since before he won the election. I’ve been waiting for it, praying for it, hoping for it, celebrating every single possibility… it can’t be long now!

Has it happened yet?
Did he bow to someone? Touch someone? Not touch someone? Read a teleprompter? NOT READ A TELEPROMPTER?!?

Maybe it’s happening RIGHT NOW! Can we celebrate yet? Say “I told you so yet”? Fuck it I’m not waiting, I’m jumping on the band wagon.

Obama BAD! Democrats BAD!

172 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:17:02pm

re: #164 SixDegrees

Have you been reading up on the bios of the other 4? (If one can say that KSM’s conviction is “a done deal” — I hardly think that’s the case with the four other ones…some of which, I really do wonder about — in terms of “evidence” —- that’s evidence other than hearsay…)

173 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:17:34pm

re: #166 McSpiff

Not sure I follow you there.

The Attorney General and the President put KSM in federal court because they thought conviction was assured. This means KSM, now with the rights of an American on trial, has been presumed guilty, whereas our Constitution says we’re innocent until proven guilty.

174 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:18:36pm

re: #161 brookly red

well here in ultra-lib NY the word on the street is WTF?!… this was the last freakin straw for a lot of folks.

maybe in the sensible crowd you hang with. but there are plenty of moonbats with short memories who won’t give a shit.

I expect the outrage to be worse in other regions if KSM walks

175 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:19:06pm

re: #149 Sharmuta

Aren’t you excited that lawyers working for al-qaeda leadership will get the power of discovery?

Any defense attorney gets that power. If we’re going to try any of these guys at all, no matter what system they’re tried under the defense has a right to examine all evidence against their clients.

Actually, if the attorneys are really working for aQ leadership, that represents a veritable goldmine of intelligence that we are certain to exploit. I actually hope this part of it is true.

176 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:19:30pm

re: #171 Locker

Even as a friend, I gotta say this comment is a little over the top for you man.

177 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:19:44pm

re: #171 Locker

people died. this is not a joke.

178 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:19:56pm

Does the Constitution not tell me I’m innocent until proven guilty, MinisterO?

179 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:20:04pm

re: #158 Gus 802

Oops, the claim was 87,000 jobs. So with 8 billion dollars that almost 92,000 dollars per imaginary job.

Oh it’s producing jobs. In China.

180 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:21:29pm

re: #172 J.S.

Have you been reading up on the bios of the other 4? (If one can say that KSM’s conviction is “a done deal” — I hardly think that’s the case with the four other ones…some of which, I really do wonder about — in terms of “evidence” —- that’s evidence other than hearsay…)

I haven’t heard any of the evidence that’s going to be presented in any of the cases. There’s no way to evaluate how effective it will be, or if it even exists, at this point.

181 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:22:21pm

re: #175 SixDegrees

I assume the lawyers would be Americans, but their client in this case is al-qadea leadership.

182 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:22:27pm

I’m an old school Republican (grandfather voted against FDR all 4 times) but this trial doesn’t bother me yet. This sounds analogous to Nuremburg trials in the sense that we may be nominally determining guilt, but de facto, there is no real question of guilt. It is just window-dressing to present the facts of our enemies’ guilt to the rest of the world and show our respect for due process even in extremis.

If all the lawyers on my tv and inside my radio when NPR is on say they’re not getting out of jail, that’s all I need to know, for now. The big shots say not guilty verdicts = another trial, not freedom, and George Will wears a bow tie and is on TV. Can any of us match that authoritah?

If video of rants in court like Saddam Hussein are in the news every day for 6 months, I reserve the right to call backsies.

183 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:22:44pm

re: #175 SixDegrees

CNN did a brief comparison of military tribunals vs criminal courts in the U.S. (quite interesting, and I really can’t understand the “need” for a criminal court proceeding when military-style tribunals seem to fit the bill…)

184 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:22:53pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The Attorney General and the President put KSM in federal court because they thought conviction was assured. This means KSM, now with the rights of an American on trial, has been presumed guilty, whereas our Constitution says we’re innocent until proven guilty.

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.

185 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:23:03pm

re: #167 Decatur Deb

Was I absent the day America became afraid of fair trials? We’re better than this.

This is not a fair trial, it is a show trial to all intents and purposes.

186 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:23:18pm

For those in the Eastern time zone, Sarah Palin is on Oprah *right now as we speak*.

She’s not impressive.

187 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:23:58pm

re: #182 keloyd

Nuremberg was a military tribunal…not a civil criminal proceeding.

189 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:24:57pm

BBIA while…

190 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:25:00pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

The administration emits fabulous bullshit when it comes to the “recovery.”

191 Locker  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:25:24pm

re: #176 McSpiff

Of course it’s over the top. It’s a paraphrase of a pattern of comments on this thread and others. Apparently doing it is ok but calling attention to it is over the top.

So be it. It’s lame.

192 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:25:35pm

re: #185 Alouette

This is not a fair trial, it is a show trial to all intents and purposes.

The objections seem to be to elements that try to make it fair (extorted confessions, civilian lawyerss, etc.).

193 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:25:56pm

re: #171 Locker

Waterloo! Waterloo! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! ODS fires are burning low, better stoke that shit up!

Will this be the moment he fails? (oh ho!)
Or maybe now! (he he!)
I’ve been predicting it since before he won the election. I’ve been waiting for it, praying for it, hoping for it, celebrating every single possibility… it can’t be long now!

Has it happened yet?
Did he bow to someone? Touch someone? Not touch someone? Read a teleprompter? NOT READ A TELEPROMPTER?!?

Maybe it’s happening RIGHT NOW! Can we celebrate yet? Say “I told you so yet”? Fuck it I’m not waiting, I’m jumping on the band wagon.

Obama BAD! Democrats BAD!


your attitude troubles me. since you self identify as an “SEIU thug,” what credibility do you have on the subject? since some of us have issues with the job performance of the POTUS, which is usually backed up by specific and reasonable citations, we all suffer from ODS? Maybe you should stop drinking the andy stern koolade and look at things from an alternate perspective. but hey, you might actually come to a different conclusion if you tried it. and we can’t have that, can we?

194 Ojoe  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:26:42pm

re: #186 sagehen

Oprah is
Harpo spelled backwards.

195 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:26:42pm

re: #141 McSpiff

So that can’t be the only evidence we have. Is there a possibility of getting this additional evidence used in trial? Would we want to if that involves disclosing intelligence assets or other matters of national security?

BO has certainly given me plenty to mull over.


Military secrets, that type of classified intelligence that… probably has a limited duration of really needing to be secret. Stuff that was need-to-know eight years ago mostly isn’t that sensitive anymore.

196 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:27:23pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The Attorney General and the President put KSM in federal court because they thought conviction was assured. This means KSM, now with the rights of an American on trial, has been presumed guilty, whereas our Constitution says we’re innocent until proven guilty.

I’m not sure anyone stated that conviction was assured, but Holder did say that it was more certain in the courts chosen, and that this is what guided his decision on which sort of procedure each would be assigned to. This smacks of venue-shopping, and will cause no end of celebrating among the defense attorneys.

And as a practical matter, the assumption of innocence is no burden to anyone other than those weighing the evidence during trial - the judge and jury. Police, prosecutors, district attorneys and many other officials operate under exactly the opposite assumption all the time. It isn’t a Constitutional guarantee either; it’s strictly procedural. In fact, within our own country, the Tax Court system assumed that the accused is guilty of the charges brought against him, and it is the burden of the defendant to prove that the charges are false. The latter is also how even civil trials are conducted in some other countries; I believe France is one of them. But the assumption of innocence isn’t sacrosanct.

197 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.

I believe this was established by the Supreme Court, but lawhawk probably knows the answer.

198 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:28:13pm

re: #191 Locker

Of course it’s over the top. It’s a paraphrase of a pattern of comments on this thread and others. Apparently doing it is ok but calling attention to it is over the top.

So be it. It’s lame.

Yeah I see the same stuff here. But I choose to ignore it to have a discussion about the legal theory behind bringing these guys here for trial. These things are whatever you make them I guess.

199 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:28:37pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.

As I understand it, it is a courtesy that has been found to have excellent constitutional and practical grounds.

200 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:30:26pm

re: #180 SixDegrees

True. There also have been no charges laid against any of them yet. (That in itself should be revealing.)

201 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:30:41pm

re: #181 Sharmuta

I assume the lawyers would be Americans, but their client in this case is al-qadea leadership.

My mistake. I misunderstood your original post.

Nonetheless, if they’re going to be tried, they have this right. Procedures for discovery differ between civilian and military court, but it is available in both. No one can simply say “He’s guilty ‘cause we say so.” The prosecution is required to turn over all evidence that will be presented at trial and explain how it was come by to a sufficient degree to ascertain it’s validity.

202 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:31:27pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.

well this is a bit different than throwing a brick…

203 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:32:28pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.


If your crime is committed on American soil, and you’re arrested on American soil, your trial will follow American rules the way Americans do.

The constitution says “the trial of all crimes,” the bill of rights says “in all criminal prosecutions” — that means any trials held here in our courts. Regardless of whether the accused is citizen, resident alien, illegal alien, tourist, or dragged here against their will.

204 Sam N  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:32:46pm

Really, this post has been retweeted 14 times?

205 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:32:54pm

re: #184 McSpiff

Honest question: I’m Canadian. Lets say I end up in Texas, and I go on a rampage due to lack of Tim Hortons coffee. And I put a brick through the local Dunkin Donuts . From my understanding I’ll be read my rights, etc ,etc and generally treated as an American, even after I’ve been identified as a (legal) foreign national. Is this covered somewhere in the constitution? Or just a courtesy that is extended type deal.

You are correct. This sort of treatment is extremely old; it dates back to the Magna Carta, I believe, and possibly before.

206 Tardis  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:33:08pm

re: #19 Bloodnok

Get it wet. There is a senor in the headphone jack that will cause it to fail if it gets wet enough (and they won’t cover it under warrantee). You don’t even need to drop it in the sink or anything. Even using it in a light rain can kill it (speaking from experience).

Umm I wash my iphone in water when it gets covered in chocolate. Maybe I need to find a better way.

207 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:34:39pm

re: #203 sagehen

but as a foreigner, your embassy or consulate may well get you a great lawyer who can negotiate a somewhat different penalty than residents might be subject to for some crimes (i.e., deported and don’t come back instead of a short sentence plus probation or community service).

208 keloyd  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:34:43pm

Guanxi88, McSpiff, and any Canadians who learned to type with their mittens -

I agree extending due process to resident aliens is a good idea, but doesn’t this contradict the ‘strict constructionism’ that many conservatives embrace? If the original Constitution was silent on states violating civil rights because it only restricted Congress, then what hope is there for the hapless Canadian tourist? “Congress shall make now law” did not stop states or cities from restricting speech, setting up a State Church, etc., in its original language, interpreted strictly.

209 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:35:03pm

re: #203 sagehen

If your crime is committed on American soil, and you’re arrested on American soil, your trial will follow American rules the way Americans do.

The constitution says “the trial of all crimes,” the bill of rights says “in all criminal prosecutions” — that means any trials held here in our courts. Regardless of whether the accused is citizen, resident alien, illegal alien, tourist, or dragged here against their will.

does that include acts of war also?

210 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:35:04pm

re: #202 brookly red

well this is a bit different than throwing a brick…

A crime is a crime, and these things are usually applied uniformly.

211 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:35:48pm

re: #201 SixDegrees

My mistake. I misunderstood your original post.

Nonetheless, if they’re going to be tried, they have this right. Procedures for discovery differ between civilian and military court, but it is available in both. No one can simply say “He’s guilty ‘cause we say so.” The prosecution is required to turn over all evidence that will be presented at trial and explain how it was come by to a sufficient degree to ascertain it’s validity.

I’m not saying we should deny discovery to the defense, just that I’d be more comfortable with a tribunal where the evidence would likely be more protected.

212 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #208 keloyd

Guanxi88, McSpiff, and any Canadians who learned to type with their mittens -

I agree extending due process to resident aliens is a good idea, but doesn’t this contradict the ‘strict constructionism’ that many conservatives embrace? If the original Constitution was silent on states violating civil rights because it only restricted Congress, then what hope is there for the hapless Canadian tourist? “Congress shall make now law” did not stop states or cities from restricting speech, setting up a State Church, etc., in its original language, interpreted strictly.

“all crimes” is the term, not “all crimes by citizens.” Besides, as I think Cato pointed out, it’s within the English commonlaw traditions, which we Yanks dig something fierce.

213 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:36:30pm

re: #210 McSpiff

A crime is a crime, and these things are usually applied uniformly.

a crime is a crime, unless it is an act of war.

214 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:38:18pm

re: #212 Guanxi88

“all crimes” is the term, not “all crimes by citizens.” Besides, as I think Cato pointed out, it’s within the English commonlaw traditions, which we Yanks dig something fierce.

I’m fairly certain it was a Supreme Court decision that established this in the US.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:38:49pm

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I washed a flash drive in the laundry this morning.

It still works.

That is really good news.

Know why? SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR FLASH DRIVE!

You’d think I’d be more careful.

Is that like the Pentagon submarine ashtrays that break into nonharmful pieces or something? How does a flash drive cost $700.00?

216 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:39:52pm

re: #213 brookly red

a crime is a crime, unless it is an act of war.

I think an acceptable working definition for ‘crime’ is “An offence tried in a civilian court”.

217 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:40:16pm

re: #198 McSpiff

Yeah I see the same stuff here. But I choose to ignore it to have a discussion about the legal theory behind bringing these guys here for trial. These things are whatever you make them I guess.

I think he’s just pissed some of us don’t like BO…he gets some credit when due, that’s just not very often…BO is a major dud so far

218 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:41:33pm

re: #211 Sharmuta

I’m not saying we should deny discovery to the defense, just that I’d be more comfortable with a tribunal where the evidence would likely be more protected.

I think a tribunal would be a better choice for a number of reasons, including this one.

219 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:41:45pm

re: #216 McSpiff

I think an acceptable working definition for ‘crime’ is “An offence tried in a civilian court”.

which is exactly why this should not be tried in a civilian court.

220 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:42:24pm

re: #219 brookly red

which is exactly why this should not be tried in a civilian court.

You get a Nod of Approval and Upding from me on this one.

221 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:43:05pm

re: #173 Sharmuta

The Attorney General and the President put KSM in federal court because they thought conviction was assured. This means KSM, now with the rights of an American on trial, has been presumed guilty, whereas our Constitution says we’re innocent until proven guilty.

Poppycock! That muddled thinking would apply to every case in which the prosecutor believes the accused to be guilty, which is pretty much every case.

222 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:44:01pm

re: #218 SixDegrees

I think a tribunal would be a better choice for a number of reasons, including this one.

why can’t they hold a civil trial at Gitmo, or Leavenworth?

223 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #217 albusteve

I think he’s just pissed some of us don’t like BO…he gets some credit when due, that’s just not very often…BO is a major dud so far

I won’t put words in Locker’s mouth, but having discussed this with him outside of LGF he never struck me as a huge BO fan. We’re both left wing however.

224 brookly red  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:45:07pm

re: #220 McSpiff

You get a Nod of Approval and Upding from me on this one.

thanks, you gotta love this place…

225 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:45:45pm

Here is the Wiki article on one of the Gitmo detainees who’s now facing a death sentence (and is to be tried in NY City…) (Is this, will this too be a “slam dunk” for the prosecution? from a casual perusal of this, I’d say, “no.”)

226 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:46:26pm

re: #223 McSpiff

I won’t put words in Locker’s mouth, but having discussed this with him outside of LGF he never struck me as a huge BO fan. We’re both left wing however.

I’m not putting words in his mouth, just reflecting on his post…seems a little angry

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:47:53pm

re: #222 albusteve

why can’t they hold a civil trial at Gitmo, or Leavenworth?

Gitmo’s not U.S. soil, which I imagine makes it a trifle tricky.

228 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:48:10pm

re: #221 MinisterO

Poppycock! That muddled thinking would apply to every case in which the prosecutor believes the accused to be guilty, which is pretty much every case.

Does our system not presume innocence, regardless of the prosecutor(s)? Because it seems to me the system has been turned on it’s head here.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:48:47pm

re: #226 albusteve

I’m not putting words in his mouth, just reflecting on his post…seems a little angry

Sometimes people overload on the other team’s memes.

230 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:49:25pm

re: #222 albusteve

why can’t they hold a civil trial at Gitmo, or Leavenworth?

Gitmo and Leavenworth are fine places for military tribunals, but a civilian trials needs to have a civilian jury and press access (but I sure hope they don’t allow cameras in this one… print reporters okay, but the TV folk report from in front of the courthouse.)

231 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:50:35pm

re: #230 sagehen

No cameras allowed in federal courts. That’s why we always get those drawings.

232 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:51:23pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Sometimes people overload on the other team’s memes.

That’s exactly the sort of post-modern relativistic rubbish that one would expect to hear from a neo-Marxian “share the wealth, crush the bourgeoisie” anti-war peacenik hippy vegan pot-head. Why don’t we all just sit around in a drum circle and chill out to the vibe?

233 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:51:50pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Does our system not presume innocence, regardless of the prosecutor(s)? Because it seems to me the system has been turned on it’s head here.

The state wouldn’t be trying the case if they weren’t confident that the accused would be convicted. That’s not a special case - that’s how the American system works.

234 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:51:55pm

re: #222 albusteve

why can’t they hold a civil trial at Gitmo, or Leavenworth?

Because they’d have to keep the detention facility at Gitmo open, and that would violate a major 0bama campaign process. Just that simple.

Selecting a jury would also be complicated.

Of course, there’s also no reason they can’t hold military tribunals somewhere other than Gitmo.

235 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:53:06pm

re: #230 sagehen

Gitmo and Leavenworth are fine places for military tribunals, but a civilian trials needs to have a civilian jury and press access (but I sure hope they don’t allow cameras in this one… print reporters okay, but the TV folk report from in front of the courthouse.)

too bad, we could fly the whole shebang down there and out them up in trailers…it’d all be over in a week…doing this in NYC begs for terrorist activity…if I were AQ I’d try like hell to blow up some people

236 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:54:08pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

Sometimes people overload on the other team’s memes.

log off…problem solved

237 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:56:30pm

re: #226 albusteve

I’m not putting words in his mouth, just reflecting on his post…seems a little angry

O Didn’t mean to imply you were. I can’t disagree with your assessment either.

I’ll be honest, I’m a left wing Canadian university student. I voted NDP (social-democratic) in the last provincial election. Believe me, I disagree with all kinds of things I read here. You especially albusteve ;-) I have no problem telling people that either. But I make an honest effort to stick to the idea of a “loyal opposition”, and debate these topics with passion, respect and a certain amount of candour. Demonizing is easy. Debating is hard. Feel free to call me out whenever I fail to meet my own standards.

238 sagehen  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:56:55pm

re: #231 Sharmuta

No cameras allowed in federal courts. That’s why we always get those drawings.

that’s a relief.

239 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:58:34pm

re: #221 MinisterO

Poppycock! That muddled thinking would apply to every case in which the prosecutor believes the accused to be guilty, which is pretty much every case.

KSM is not a US citizen.
He was not captured on US soil.
He conspired and aided a terrorist attack against a symbol of America and abetted a mass murder of innocent civilians.
The US government is at war against KSM and his ilk - he is an enemy of the State.
This is a case for a military trial if ever there was one, for the preceding reasons. The fact that a civil trial is likely to be transformed into a highly politicized and lengthy show trial wherein sensitive security and military documents are likely to be publicized is yet another reason for a military trial.
Those who think they can defeat the Islamofascists by showering them with rights and privileges to which our enemies are not entitled, are delusional.
It is your thinking that is muddled.
And poppycock my ass.

240 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 1:59:33pm

re: #237 McSpiff

O Didn’t mean to imply you were. I can’t disagree with your assessment either.

I’ll be honest, I’m a left wing Canadian university student. I voted NDP (social-democratic) in the last provincial election. Believe me, I disagree with all kinds of things I read here. You especially albusteve ;-) I have no problem telling people that either. But I make an honest effort to stick to the idea of a “loyal opposition”, and debate these topics with passion, respect and a certain amount of candour. Demonizing is easy. Debating is hard. Feel free to call me out whenever I fail to meet my own standards.

calling people out is above my paygrade…unless they start calling others names or otherwise being rude…

241 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #27 countrockulot

HELLO PEOPLE!! Wake up! Don’t you see?! Obama is trying to silence the truth by destroying the monitors of those with views he disagrees with?! Think about it: Maoist Oligachy Nirther Ilovebillayers Totalitarian Evil Robots! What does that spell? Moniter! *cries*

Obviously a case of sabotage, but how do we respond? It’s time to call (who else?) the dreaded Monitor Lizard!

242 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:02:08pm

re: #241 Shiplord Kirel

Obviously a case of sabotage, but how do we respond? It’s time to call (who else?) the dreaded Monitor Lizard!

looks harmless enough to me

243 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:02:17pm

re: #233 MinisterO

The state wouldn’t be trying the case if they weren’t confident that the accused would be convicted. That’s not a special case - that’s how the American system works.

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution because innocence is presumed. Or are you really going to tell me the American Justice system presumes we’re guilty?

244 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:03:02pm

re: #239 Spare O’Lake

Wow, if you think you’re contradicting something I said, think again.

And poppycock my ass.

I most certainly will not.

245 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:03:48pm

re: #232 Guanxi88

That’s exactly the sort of post-modern relativistic rubbish that one would expect to hear from a neo-Marxian “share the wealth, crush the bourgeoisie” anti-war peacenik hippy vegan pot-head. Why don’t we all just sit around in a drum circle and chill out to the vibe?

Pot has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise:

HUH?!: Geller “Anti-”Honor Killing Rally Features Mother Who Conspired to Kill Daughters

How do you go from–less than two months ago–rightfully condemning a mother for sending her daughters to what she knew would be their murder by their Muslim father … to making her a featured speaker at your anti-honor killing rally?!



a question you’ll have to ask Pamela Geller, who–as is her recent SOP with me–ignored my e-mails to her, including two asking her why she invited Patricia Said a/k/a “Tissie,” mother of the late Sarah and Amina Said (honor killing victims) , to speak at the rally she organized, today, in Ohio for Fathima Rifqa Bary, the teen convert to Christianity seeking to get away from her Muslim parents. The rally is set to take place at noon. This is the woman who–less than two months ago–called Patricia Said, “the Mom From Hell” and a “murderous mom.” That’s exactly what Mrs. Said still is, despite her current “rehabilitation” by Pamela, who a few weeks ago said, “she deserves jail and knows it.”

Are Schlussel links haram?

246 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:03:59pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution because innocence is presumed. Or are you really going to tell me the American Justice system presumes we’re guilty?

I think all too often it does presume our guilt.

247 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:05:18pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution because innocence is presumed.

Absolutely agreed.

Or are you really going to tell me the American Justice system presumes we’re guilty?

No, you’re not making any sense here.

248 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:05:44pm

re: #239 Spare O’Lake

KSM is not a US citizen.
He was not captured on US soil.
He conspired and aided a terrorist attack against a symbol of America and abetted a mass murder of innocent civilians.
The US government is at war against KSM and his ilk - he is an enemy of the State.
This is a case for a military trial if ever there was one, for the preceding reasons. The fact that a civil trial is likely to be transformed into a highly politicized and lengthy show trial wherein sensitive security and military documents are likely to be publicized is yet another reason for a military trial.
Those who think they can defeat the Islamofascists by showering them with rights and privileges to which our enemies are not entitled, are delusional.
It is your thinking that is muddled.
And poppycock my ass.

Love to.

249 wiffersnapper  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:05:54pm

Since we’re discussing computers, I’ve had the same optical mouse since 2002 (7 years), and it works better than any other newer mice out there. I base this on the fact that if you jiggle the mouse around too quickly, the cursor will get stuck in place. Not with this baby, ol’ reliable. Makes for a good gaming sessions!

250 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:06:44pm

re: #243 Sharmuta
The DA’s Code of Conduct precludes prosecution of cases that are deemed to be unwinnable.
Okay, not a word… but it’s descriptive. The State is not supposed to ask a grand jury to return an indictment, for example, without reasonable expectation of a successful prosecution.

251 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:07:21pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution because innocence is presumed. Or are you really going to tell me the American Justice system presumes we’re guilty?

I hope the prosecution doesn’t assume ANYONE is innocent.

252 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:07:46pm

meanwhile troop morale is sinking…as we give terrorists the same rights as the men and women dying, trying to find them and kill them

[Link: www.armytimes.com…]

[Link: abcnews.go.com…]

253 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:09:43pm

re: #247 MinisterO

You’re the one bent out of shape because I said the system presumes innocence until proven otherwise. You want to get all nuanced about it- knock yourself out.

254 Jack Burton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:10:08pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

But the burden of proof is on the prosecution because innocence is presumed. Or are you really going to tell me the American Justice system presumes we’re guilty?

“Why of course. Bringing the innocent to trial would be unfair!”

/Q

255 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:10:33pm

re: #252 albusteve

and people wonder why opinion of BO is so low…these are OUR kids…wtf is BO telling them?…bringing these trials into civilian courts is immoral, extremist and borders on the criminal imo

256 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:11:01pm

Bwahahahah.
Suckas…
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

257 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:11:43pm

re: #254 ArchangelMichael

“Why of course. Bringing the innocent to trial would be unfair!”

/Q

Sci-fi’s most malevolent and entertaining super-villain. Q is for Queen.

258 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:12:21pm

re: #255 albusteve
I could give less of a damn but for one major, major problem:
Once the discovery/interrogatory hounds are loosed, we are in a world of hurt.
Seriously.
Once again, they’ll use our freedoms to attempt to destroy them.

259 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:12:28pm

re: #251 MandyManners

I hope the prosecution doesn’t assume ANYONE is innocent.

Provided they have evidence to support their position, I agree.

260 gregb  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:12:45pm

Back before they had flat screens, I’ve burned out more 20” and 21” CRT premium monitors from Sun, including a $10,000 Sun Microsystems GT tower and one of the very first NeXT color monitors.

They never should have ported Doom over to Solaris and MachOS/NeXT.

261 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:13:28pm

re: #256 tradewind

Bwahahahah.
Suckas…
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

Well, why should FoxNews get all the ratings?

262 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:13:30pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Provided they have evidence to support their position, I agree.

[Link: reason.com…]

263 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:15:18pm

re: #255 albusteve

and people wonder why opinion of BO is so low…these are OUR kids…wtf is BO telling them?…bringing these trials into civilian courts is immoral, extremist and borders on the criminal imo

Remains to be seen. As noted earlier, it remains within the realm of the possible that the government will be able to make it’s case and obtain a conviction.

As for New York being a security concern, it’s a somewhat valid point. But in fact, New York already has a gigantic green bullseye around it amongst Islamists, who see it as the throbbing heart of Western civilization, capitalism and all that’s wrong with the world. And the infrastructure for dealing with that risk is arguably better in New York than it is anywhere else in the country.

Of course, that all assumes that the Administration has actually prepared it’s case and thought all the ramifications through, something I’m not quite prepared to accept just yet.

264 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:15:47pm

re: #261 Ben Hur
Now who was that lizard who thinks that Maddow is so reasoned and calm?
Check the hyperbole index there. She’s doing a regular chicken little for NARAL.

265 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:16:41pm

re: #258 tradewind

I could give less of a damn but for one major, major problem:
Once the discovery/interrogatory hounds are loosed, we are in a world of hurt.
Seriously.
Once again, they’ll use our freedoms to attempt to destroy them.

I can hear KSMs howling laughter all the way to Albuquerque…BO is not defending and protecting the citizens and military of this country…he is flat out putting them at risk for political reasons

266 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:16:55pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Provided they have evidence to support their position, I agree.

No prosecutor worth her salt would go to trial without sufficient evidence.

267 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:17:38pm

re: #266 MandyManners

That reminds me. It would be marvelous if the prosecutor and judge of KSM were women.

268 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:18:11pm

re: #267 MandyManners

That reminds me. It would be marvelous if the prosecutor and judge of KSM were women.

And Jewish.

269 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:18:24pm

If the Iron Maiden fit, then you must acquit!

270 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:18:52pm

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I washed a flash drive in the laundry this morning.

It still works.

That is really good news.

Know why? SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLAR FLASH DRIVE!

You’d think I’d be more careful.

Holy Harddrive batman! What you got on that thing the Encyclopedia Galactica?

271 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:19:34pm

re: #268 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Jewish.

My gut tells me that there’s a very good chance.

272 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:19:42pm

re: #263 SixDegrees

Remains to be seen. As noted earlier, it remains within the realm of the possible that the government will be able to make it’s case and obtain a conviction.

As for New York being a security concern, it’s a somewhat valid point. But in fact, New York already has a gigantic green bullseye around it amongst Islamists, who see it as the throbbing heart of Western civilization, capitalism and all that’s wrong with the world. And the infrastructure for dealing with that risk is arguably better in New York than it is anywhere else in the country.

Of course, that all assumes that the Administration has actually prepared it’s case and thought all the ramifications through, something I’m not quite prepared to accept just yet.

whether the feds get a conviction is not the point, and neither is it germane that NYC might be prepared…it’s wrong, period

273 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:20:52pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

You’re the one bent out of shape because I said the system presumes innocence until proven otherwise. You want to get all nuanced about it- knock yourself out.

Weird. You can go ahead and claim moral high ground if you want. I’m bemused. That I’m not alone in that regard says something.

274 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:21:10pm

re: #263 SixDegrees
POTUS is gonna gitmo jobs for his home state by bringing some of the detainees to IL and try ‘em about a stone’s throw from the former Sears Tower/now Willis Tower…the tallest structure in North America.
Think the jihadists might salivate?
That’s the equivalent of holding a ribeye underneath the nose of a pack of pit bulls and expecting a sit/stay.

275 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:21:22pm

re: #266 MandyManners

No prosecutor worth her salt would go to trial without sufficient evidence.

I agree, and yet the system still grants the defendant the presumption of innocence, which is why we have trials.

276 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:22:44pm

re: #268 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Jewish.

A TWO-FER!

277 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:23:14pm

re: #276 MandyManners

A TWO-FER!

I have a three-fer: someone at the prosecution table is blind and needs a guide dog in court.

278 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:23:41pm

re: #268 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Jewish.

Automatic bitchfest right there, on the grounds of bias (in the judge’s case). Not that it would hold up, but I can pretty much guarantee that every opportunity to turn the proceedings into a podium and drag them out interminably will be taken.

Think it took a long time to prosecute Slobodan Milosevic? Or Radovan Karadzic? That was speedy justice in comparison to how this is likely to unfold.

279 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:23:43pm

re: #275 Sharmuta
The presumption of innocence is to a) prevent vigilante justice, and b) prevent stripping an accused of his civil rights before conviction. Our system takes it a little too far when a crime witnessed by thousands, for example, is deemed ’ alleged ‘.

280 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:24:08pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

I agree, and yet the system still grants the defendant the presumption of innocence, which is why we have trials.

Dang, and I thought it was something to give the attorneys to do.

281 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:24:40pm

re: #273 MinisterO

I’m not claiming any ground, I’m stating that in the United States of America you’re innocent until proven otherwise. It doesn’t matter if the prosecutor thinks you’re guilty, the system says you’re not until convicted in a court of law. This presumption of guilt on the part of Holder and Obama could bite them in the ass, and I think it’s a bad precedent for the President to set.

282 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:24:47pm

re: #268 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Jewish.

Well, I was going to say Women…jewish…and uppity…

/Would that be redundant?

(Fully aware that in his view every western woman is uppity.)

283 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:08pm

re: #278 SixDegrees

Automatic bitchfest right there, on the grounds of bias (in the judge’s case). Not that it would hold up, but I can pretty much guarantee that every opportunity to turn the proceedings into a podium and drag them out interminably will be taken.

Think it took a long time to prosecute Slobodan Milosevic? Or Radovan Karadzic? That was speedy justice in comparison to how this is likely to unfold.

What if his court-appointed attorney is Jewish?

284 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:21pm

re: #283 MandyManners

What if his court-appointed attorney is Jewish?

Oh, and a woman, too.

285 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:35pm

re: #278 SixDegrees
It’ll be nothing but motion after motion to suppress, and motion after motion to compel/admit. And in the midst of all that mess, we are bound to suffer breaches in national security.
What a train wreck.

286 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:43pm

how will the defense lawyers get paid?…will that be a problem?, I mean they can’t do business with AQ, can they

287 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:49pm

If Jihadists destroyed the Sears (Won’t call it Willis) Tower the Obama administration and Daley machine would claim it as relief from low utilization of downtown office space and a stimulus win for Chicago.

You think that’s crazy?

288 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:25:49pm

Female bailiffs. Female court reporters.

289 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:26:00pm

re: #282 EmmmieG

Well, I was going to say Women…jewish…and uppity…

/Would that be redundant?

(Fully aware that in his view every western woman is uppity.)

Jewish American Princess? I have heard of that.

290 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:26:19pm

re: #286 albusteve

how will the defense lawyers get paid?…will that be a problem?, I mean they can’t do business with AQ, can they

Open your wallet. Look inside.

291 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:26:50pm

Female guards. Female jailers.

292 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:26:54pm

Question: Who will look out for the safety of the jury and their families?

293 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:27:01pm

re: #277 MandyManners
And the judge has a penchant for pork rinds.///

294 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:27:07pm

re: #279 tradewind

The presumption of innocence is to a) prevent vigilante justice, and b) prevent stripping an accused of his civil rights before conviction. Our system takes it a little too far when a crime witnessed by thousands, for example, is deemed ’ alleged ‘.

Thousands witnessed the Governator order the deaths of civilians in “The Running Man” but that didn’t make it so. /

295 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:27:38pm

Yeah, if we gotta’ try that fucker in civilian court, why not have fun imagining ways to piss him off.

296 Ben Hur  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:27:39pm

re: #294 DaddyG

Thousands witnessed the Governator order the deaths of civilians in “The Running Man” but that didn’t make it so. /

That film is prophetic on a lot levels.

297 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:27:55pm

re: #293 tradewind

And the judge has a penchant for pork rinds.///

Not if she’s Jewish!

298 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:28:00pm

re: #283 MandyManners

What if his court-appointed attorney is Jewish?

Within limits, he’s free to dismiss them and have another chosen. Whether a court would permit this on religious grounds alone is unlikely.

And of course, at some point it really does start to look like a show trial, or that the IJC really runs everything, if enough stuff like that takes place.

It’ll be interesting to see if a public defender is necessary.

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:28:12pm

re: #291 MandyManners

Female guards. Female jailers.

And, of course, Warden Mandy. (someone else said that once, so not an original thought of mine)

300 Jack Burton  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:28:27pm

re: #290 MandyManners

Open your wallet. Look inside.

Maybe they can get Grima Wormtongue Ramsey Clark to do some pro-bono work again.

301 DaddyG  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:29:27pm

re: #296 Ben Hur

That film is prophetic on a lot levels.


The tragic end of Richard Dawson’s game show hosting career? /

302 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:29:27pm

re: #300 ArchangelMichael

Maybe they can get Grima Wormtongue Ramsey Clark to do some pro-bono work again.

Or Lynn Stewart?

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:29:44pm

re: #245 Ben Hur

Are Schlussel links haram?

I don’t know, but they’re certainly suspect. Is there a Muslim equivalent of “If you have to ask, it’s trayf?”

304 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:29:55pm

re: #298 SixDegrees

Within limits, he’s free to dismiss them and have another chosen. Whether a court would permit this on religious grounds alone is unlikely.

And of course, at some point it really does start to look like a show trial, or that the IJC really runs everything, if enough stuff like that takes place.

It’ll be interesting to see if a public defender is necessary.

How could he pay for his own defense?


Oh, wait. I’m sure there will be many attorneys rushing to defend him. However, they will need to be paid. Will there be donations? If so, from where?

305 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:29:56pm

re: #285 tradewind

It’ll be nothing but motion after motion to suppress, and motion after motion to compel/admit. And in the midst of all that mess, we are bound to suffer breaches in national security.
What a train wreck.

The national security stuff I’m not overly concerned about. Presumably, the government will be smart enough to withdraw it’s evidence if compelled to reveal sensitive information. Although with this Administration, it’s hard to be sure. If it does happen, the blame rests solely on the Administration, however; no judge can compel the release of such information if the evidence it supports is withdrawn.

306 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:30:28pm

re: #300 ArchangelMichael

Maybe they can get Grima Wormtongue Ramsey Clark to do some pro-bono work again.

Oooh. Good comparison.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:30:51pm

re: #164 SixDegrees

Makes no difference. We didn’t Mirandize him, either, so none of his statements since capture are going to be admissible in a civilian court, in all likelihood.

One could hope that the government realized this when assigning KSM to such a court, rather than a military tribunal, but felt that their other evidence would be strong enough to obtain a conviction regardless, and that it would be accepted.

Of course, that’s not the only possibility. The government could also be conniving to use the trial as an indictment of the last Administration, and will expend most of it’s effort blaming Bush rather than conducting an effective prosecution. Or, the government could simply be incompetent and has no plan at all, preferring to stumble through the fallout on an ad hoc basis as it occurs.

I suppose we’ll find out, one way or the other.

This just doesn’t seem like a good idea.

308 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:31:29pm

re: #305 SixDegrees

The national security stuff I’m not overly concerned about. Presumably, the government will be smart enough to withdraw it’s evidence if compelled to reveal sensitive information. Although with this Administration, it’s hard to be sure. If it does happen, the blame rests solely on the Administration, however; no judge can compel the release of such information if the evidence it supports is withdrawn.

It will need to be withdrawn before discovery.

309 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:31:47pm

re: #295 MandyManners

A wiki article on KSM asserts that U.S. interrogators abused KSM’s children — aged 6 and 8…(that’s simply a claim at this point, of course).

310 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:32:10pm

re: #299 Cannadian Club Akbar

And, of course, Warden Mandy. (someone else said that once, so not an original thought of mine)

Do I get a whip? I’ve always wanted a whip.

311 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:32:36pm

re: #292 Cannadian Club Akbar
The smart thing would be to hire some ex-Mossad/Israeli bodyguards.
Seriously, those guys are unbelievable. When looting was a problem after Katrina in New Orleans, a couple who used to be my neighbors hired two of them to guard their home while it was being renovated and provide security for their contractors… they were the best.

312 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:32:39pm

re: #309 J.S.

A wiki article on KSM asserts that U.S. interrogators abused KSM’s children — aged 6 and 8…(that’s simply a claim at this point, of course).

Didn’t the interrogators make veiled threats about them?

313 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:32:42pm

re: #232 Guanxi88

That’s exactly the sort of post-modern relativistic rubbish that one would expect to hear from a neo-Marxian “share the wealth, crush the bourgeoisie” anti-war peacenik hippy vegan pot-head. Why don’t we all just sit around in a drum circle and chill out to the vibe?

Dude!

314 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:32:59pm

re: #310 MandyManners

Do I get a whip? I’ve always wanted a whip.

OK, but just for our first date.
///

315 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:33:28pm

re: #297 MandyManners
Whoops, my bad.
Wait, she could be reformed, right?
Hope I’m not tattling, but most of my Jewish friends eat barbecue.

316 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:33:43pm

re: #304 MandyManners

How could he pay for his own defense?

Oh, wait. I’m sure there will be many attorneys rushing to defend him. However, they will need to be paid. Will there be donations? If so, from where?

The latter was my thought. Some firms will take the case simply for the publicity alone.

And there may, indeed, be external sources of payment offered. In fact, I’m kind of hoping there are.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:33:49pm

re: #236 albusteve

log off…problem solved

Sure. And folks could have done that yesterday when they started to get exercised about how people were being mean to President Bush. But we mostly all like a good argument, around here.

318 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:34:04pm

re: #314 Cannadian Club Akbar

OK, but just for our first date.
///

You know not what you ask.

319 albusteve  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:34:18pm

Bush and Cheney will be subpoenaed to testify…whooohooo!, what a circus!

320 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:34:46pm

re: #315 tradewind

Whoops, my bad.
Wait, she could be reformed, right?
Hope I’m not tattling, but most of my Jewish friends eat barbecue.

That’s between them and their beliefs.

321 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:35:15pm

re: #316 SixDegrees

The latter was my thought. Some firms will take the case simply for the publicity alone.

And there may, indeed, be external sources of payment offered. In fact, I’m kind of hoping there are.

From whom?

322 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:35:18pm

re: #312 MandyManners

According to an affidavit : “”The Pakistani guards told my son that the boys were kept in a separate area upstairs, and were denied food and water by other guards. They were also mentally tortured by having ants or other creatures put on their legs to scare them and get them to say where their father was hiding.”

323 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:35:24pm

re: #309 J.S.
Bullshiite. That was Jack Bauer on 24, and he was only bluffing with video.///
Did the trick, though. And after, he said ’ fooled ya ‘.

324 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:35:50pm

re: #313 SanFranciscoZionist

Dude!

Eh? Like looking into a mirror, ain’t it? All you lefties are the same - I got your number.


//

325 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:36:18pm

re: #322 J.S.

According to an affidavit : “”The Pakistani guards told my son that the boys were kept in a separate area upstairs, and were denied food and water by other guards. They were also mentally tortured by having ants or other creatures put on their legs to scare them and get them to say where their father was hiding.”

Oh, please.

My dog lies better than that.

326 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:37:03pm

re: #308 MandyManners

It will need to be withdrawn before discovery.

If the discovery process leads to requests that the government doesn’t want to answer, it can amend it’s evidentiary inventory, or whatever it’s called, and withdraw those items. Or simply refuse to provide the requested information, in which case the evidence in question would simply be excluded.

The discovery process exists for military tribunals, as well. Although there are more safeguards in place, the process isn’t airtight, and sometimes a choice has to be made to exclude evidence that would be useful to the prosecution on security grounds.

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:37:36pm

re: #315 tradewind

Whoops, my bad.
Wait, she could be reformed, right?
Hope I’m not tattling, but most of my Jewish friends eat barbecue.

Reform swings right these days. It’s one thing to eat barbeque, but eating pork rinds in court when your Bubbe will be reading the accounts of trial may be a bit much.

328 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:38:13pm

re: #326 SixDegrees

If the discovery process leads to requests that the government doesn’t want to answer, it can amend it’s evidentiary inventory, or whatever it’s called, and withdraw those items. Or simply refuse to provide the requested information, in which case the evidence in question would simply be excluded.

The discovery process exists for military tribunals, as well. Although there are more safeguards in place, the process isn’t airtight, and sometimes a choice has to be made to exclude evidence that would be useful to the prosecution on security grounds.

Yeah, as a paralegal I’ve been around that block a time or twelve.

329 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:38:25pm

re: #325 MandyManners

but, but, but , they were tortured! Tortured, I tell you!
/
btw, there are those civil lawsuits going on with those former Gitmo detainees…suing the UK..

330 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:38:51pm

re: #321 MandyManners

From whom?

Beats me (digs toe in sand, whistles and looks skyward).

It would certainly be interesting to find out, though, wouldn’t it?

331 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:40:03pm

re: #322 J.S.
Saw an episode of V, this television thing, and the humans-who-are-really -lizard -aliens have a virtual machine that creates a holographic illusion of snakes crawling around on a detainee’s body while they’re being questioned.
That could be useful.

332 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:40:24pm

re: #329 J.S.

but, but, but , they were tortured! Tortured, I tell you!
/
btw, there are those civil lawsuits going on with those former Gitmo detainees…suing the UK..

I don’t keep up on Gitmo nowadays. Maybe I should pay closer attention.

333 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:40:49pm

re: #330 SixDegrees

Beats me (digs toe in sand, whistles and looks skyward).

It would certainly be interesting to find out, though, wouldn’t it?

Would it be considered privileged information?

334 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:41:33pm

re: #331 tradewind

Saw an episode of V, this television thing, and the humans-who-are-really -lizard -aliens have a virtual machine that creates a holographic illusion of snakes crawling around on a detainee’s body while they’re being questioned.
That could be useful.

I’d give up my own mother.

335 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:42:40pm

re: #331 tradewind

Saw an episode of V, this television thing, and the humans-who-are-really -lizard -aliens have a virtual machine that creates a holographic illusion of snakes crawling around on a detainee’s body while they’re being questioned.
That could be useful.

Hell, I want one of those for my next software quality review.

336 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:43:00pm

re: #331 tradewind

lol…(yeah, just don’t say anything to those ACLU types…anything, anything can be defined by them as “torture.”)

337 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:43:07pm

re: #309 J.S.
Yeah, and in the check-out line I saw that the Globe is detailing how Michelle is sadly abandoning her quest for another pregnancy, and so the Obamas are adopting a baby boy.///
Probably about the same degree of credibility.

338 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:43:42pm

re: #334 MandyManners
Me too. Heck, they could use spiders/

339 Cheechako  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:44:37pm

if KSM is found not guilty of Federal terrorism charges can the State of New York proceed with murder charges?

340 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:44:47pm

re: #313 SanFranciscoZionist

Dude!

Yes, I’m hip to your groovy scene, sister.

“It was I, you fools! The man you trusted wasn’t Wavy Gravy at all! And all this time, I’ve been smoking harmless tobacco.” - C. Montgomery Burns.

341 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:45:07pm

re: #332 MandyManners

Yeah, there’s something like another 160 ? or so detainees…(and Obama himself did say that “the worst of the worst” won’t be seeing trials (military or civilian) anytime soon — for some, it’s indefinite detention…(unless of course Obama was just shuckin’ us…)

342 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:45:39pm

re: #335 SixDegrees
The prisoner is strapped down to what looks like a tanning bed, and has a view of his own chest, and there is every variety of pit viper writhing on top of them. All virtual.
Wonder what Cheney is going to do with his royalties?
///yeah sarc///

343 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:46:06pm

re: #339 Cheechako

Here’s a thought. Just put him into GenPop at Attica for five minutes.

344 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:46:48pm

re: #333 MandyManners

Would it be considered privileged information?

Absolutely.

That doesn’t keep anyone from obtaining it, however, if they have the proper equipment. It just limits it’s potential for use as future evidence in a legal proceeding.

And there are many times when simply possessing such information is as worthwhile as being able to deploy it in a court.

345 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:46:59pm

re: #338 tradewind

Me too. Heck, they could use spiders/

I’d give up The Kid.

346 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:47:38pm

re: #339 Cheechako

if KSM is found not guilty of Federal terrorism charges can the State of New York proceed with murder charges?

Conspiracy charges?

347 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:48:08pm

re: #341 J.S.

Yeah, there’s something like another 160 ? or so detainees…(and Obama himself did say that “the worst of the worst” won’t be seeing trials (military or civilian) anytime soon — for some, it’s indefinite detention…(unless of course Obama was just shuckin’ us…)

The Cole bomber is going to a military brig in South Carolina.

348 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:48:26pm

re: #347 MandyManners

The ALLEGED Cole bomber is going to a military brig in South Carolina.

*ahem*

349 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:48:32pm

re: #342 tradewind

The prisoner is strapped down to what looks like a tanning bed, and has a view of his own chest, and there is every variety of pit viper writhing on top of them. All virtual.
Wonder what Cheney is going to do with his royalties?
///yeah sarc///

That reminds me - I recorded The Prisoner debut last night, and have to go watch that.

350 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:49:17pm

re: #344 SixDegrees

Absolutely.

That doesn’t keep anyone from obtaining it, however, if they have the proper equipment. It just limits it’s potential for use as future evidence in a legal proceeding.

And there are many times when simply possessing such information is as worthwhile as being able to deploy it in a court.

I’d like to see it made public just to know.

351 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:51:12pm

re: #339 Cheechako

since KSM was never a resident of New York State, I don’t see how that’d work…(but then, I also have problems with a now rather extensive jurisdiction for the U.S. to pursue criminal proceedings…but, that’s just me, I guess..)

352 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 2:55:35pm

re: #351 J.S.

since KSM was never a resident of New York State, I don’t see how that’d work…(but then, I also have problems with a now rather extensive jurisdiction for the U.S. to pursue criminal proceedings…but, that’s just me, I guess..)

You don’t have to be a resident of a state in order to be charged with a crime in that state.

353 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:00:26pm

What evidence against KLM is publicly known?

354 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:01:16pm

re: #353 MinisterO

What evidence against KLM KSM is publicly known?

355 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:02:02pm

re: #305 SixDegrees
You know by now that suppression orders/ gag orders, etc, mean absolutely nothing when a newshound is determined to dig out info. There is always… always a leaker. There is no such thing as an expunged record anymore… someone will always find it.
Redacted information is being dug up… it’s like some scavenger hunt for reporters. Leaks that originate all the way up into the WH will happen from now on.

356 tradewind  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:03:46pm

re: #349 SixDegrees
Oh,,, me too.
You watch first and report back. Too much stuff on there as it is, but it looked pretty interesting. If it sucks, I’ll cancel tonight’s and tomorrow’s.

357 J.S.  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:04:05pm

re: #352 MandyManners

really? (I’m accustomed now to Canadian law — there’s a uniform criminal code — wherever you live, it’s applied uniformly, nationwide…I was thinking that Federal laws in the States would be similar to the Canadian criminal code…then, you’d get local state laws which would vary from state to state but the jurisdiction would be confined to each state…Oh well…so much for that one. (btw, there have been some really bizarre things going on in Canada’s criminal justice system here — and this invovles, for example, prosecuting alleged war criminals from Rwanda — imo, these “trials” with their secret witnesses, etc., etc., are huge violations of the accused rights…how do you obtain forensic evidence from Rwanda? well, you don’t — it’s all based on accusatory claims by secret witnesses,, etc. but, again, that’s just me.)

358 webevintage  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:24:16pm

re: #292 Cannadian Club Akbar

Question: Who will look out for the safety of the jury and their families?

Federal Marshals?
Aren’t they the ones who normally protect witnesses and juries in federal trials?

I actually have no feelings on way or the other on the trial being in federal court (where they have a pretty good conviction rate for terrorists) or a military tribunal.
My feeling though is that the AG (once a prosecutor) would not have chosen this venue if he was not sure of a conviction and felt it was the appropriate place.

359 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 4:02:43pm

re: #59 tradewind

tradewind -

If nobody else named it - it is called “Ad-Aware” - and is pretty good. Available at download.com. Add ccleaner and smart defrag and it sounds like a real plan to me. -S-

360 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:09:27pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

This presumption of guilt on the part of Holder and Obama could bite them in the ass, and I think it’s a bad precedent for the President to set.

If Holder and Obama were judges or jurors on the case you might have a point. Otherwise it’s just screwy logic. I’m guessing there’s a conclusion that all of this is concocted to support.

361 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:35:42pm

re: #239 Spare O’Lake

KSM is not a US citizen.
He was not captured on US soil.
He conspired and aided a terrorist attack against a symbol of America and abetted a mass murder of innocent civilians.
The US government is at war against KSM and his ilk - he is an enemy of the State.
This is a case for a military trial if ever there was one, for the preceding reasons. The fact that a civil trial is likely to be transformed into a highly politicized and lengthy show trial wherein sensitive security and military documents are likely to be publicized is yet another reason for a military trial.
Those who think they can defeat the Islamofascists by showering them with rights and privileges to which our enemies are not entitled, are delusional.
It is your thinking that is muddled.
And poppycock my ass.

Spare O’Lake -

And for all of the reasons you set forth above (just please use “civilian” not “civil” - we sueth NOT for wrongful death) - KSM could have been tried in the field by a drumhead Courts Martial and shot dead on the spot within the generally recognized Rules of War. That we did NOT do so in the first instance has to do mainly with the possibility of extracting information from him. That he was sent to Gitmo has to do with the state of the Law , Pre-Hamdan. I heard this described this weekend as a “sleazy shyster move” - it was NOT at the time, it was BRILLIANT, brought a smile to my face when I heard about Gitmo, considering the state of the law at that time - something like, ‘ya gotta hand it to GWB - his Justice Department “Gets It.”
That “KSM” is being transferred to the US for Civilian Trial is Politically Inspired LUNACY. Will New York be able to handle it? Of course. SHOULD New York HAVE to HANDLE and PAY for IT? Absolutely NOT. If KSM engages Counsel, we will pay for it, not in the way we would have with a Military Tribunal represented by a salaried JAG Officer, rather, with real dollars. Furthermore - AND - To the Point - a trial of KSM in New York, or anywhere else KSM would instantly become a “US Person,” with “MIRANDA RIGHTS” and Habeus Corpus Rights, and Federal Discovery Rules, would become AND IS MEANT TO BE A TRIAL OF THE USA, MORE PARTICULARLY OF FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH! Make NO Mistake about it, this Administration is playing to its base. This is politically understandable. All Administrations sometimes do “silly stuff” to Keep “the folks” on board. This one, however, goes beyond that. It plays with National Security and is a step towards becoming a Banana Republic.
President Obama has made his bed with this, let him lay in it. I accept his explanation of this as I did President Clinton’s about Waco - it is NEVER the AG’s Call on something as big as this, it is the President’s. As someone who was accidentally infected by a co-worker doing extermination. May that bed be chock full of Political Bedbugs. That is all.

Dr. Shalit

362 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 6:02:28pm

re: #361 Dr. Shalit

AND IS MEANT TO BE A TRIAL OF THE USA, MORE PARTICULARLY OF FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH!

Oh noes teh sekret is owt!

363 RexMundi  Mon, Nov 16, 2009 10:06:47pm

Yes in fact I do hate it when a monitor dies. I have one that’s fixin’ to die right now. :(


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