Bill Maher and the Pyre of Stupidity

Health • Views: 3,340

At Huffington Post, TV talk show host Bill Maher has a very lengthy article trying to explain his anti-vaccination opinions, but it’s more obfuscation than explanation: Bill Maher: Vaccination: A Conversation Worth Having.

It’s pretty long-winded and a bit whiny, and amounts to a restatement of Maher’s previous positions, which were never really hidden: he has quackish beliefs about science, medicine, and especially vaccines.

Maher’s nemesis at SciBlogs, Orac, has posted an even lengthier but much more readable response to Maher’s apologetics; he lets Maher have it: Bill Maher flames out in a pyre of stupidity over vaccines—again.

First off, Maher is apparently very, very unhappy that he’s been sucked into this debate. More like he’s never actually been called out so publicly for his medical and scientific ignorance before or so clearly revealed to be anti-science when it comes to medicine. He doesn’t like it, not one bit. So he starts out by complaining about how the topic is coming up in every interview he does these days. I also think he was particularly hurt by Michael Shermer’s excellent (but far too polite for the situation) Open Letter to Bill Maher. Never does it cross Maher’s fragile eggshell mind that the reason that the topic of vaccines in general and the flu vaccine in particular are coming up so often in his interviews is because of—oh, maybe, just maybe—his history on the topic. It’s not as though Maher hasn’t been laying down swaths of antivaccine nonsense hither and yon since at least 2005, which was the first time I noticed him. It’s not exactly a secret that Maher’s been an anti-vaccine loon who “doesn’t believe in Western medicine” for many years now. He’s been “questioning” vaccines and “Western medicine” (a code word for science-based medicine among the woo set) for years now, both in his comedy act and on his show. So—surprise! surprise!—when a flu pandemic shows up in 2009 and the government gears up for a mass vaccination program to combat it, why is Maher surprised that the topic comes up a lot on his show or whenever he does interviews? More likely, he’s surprised at the amount of justified criticism he’s taken for his anti-scientific health views. After being given a free pass for at least five years, suddenly people are noticing just how flaky Maher’s medical views are. So now, a month after the most recent season of his show ended, he shows up on that quackfest known as HuffPo to try to defend himself.

The results, predictably, are pathetic.

Read the whole thing…

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334 comments
1 StillAMarine  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:35:17pm

I see that the creationists do not have a corner on stupidity.

2 brookly red  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:35:50pm

Me, myself don't like Mr. Bill maher very much.

3 StillAMarine  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:35:59pm

Nor do the birthers ...

4 AK-47%  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:36:08pm

Purity of Bodily Fluids...

5 prairiefire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:36:24pm

I don't think he has any kids or ever will. Let him feel the fear of exposing your 6 month old to measles because some people scoff at or fear the "herd" theory of vaccines and did not vaccinate their kids. Wrong wrong wrong!

6 Baier  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:36:36pm

Ignorance is the devils foil.

7 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:37:22pm

He's also a member of PETA's board of directors. He takes being a flake to the full extreme.

8 Baier  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:37:47pm

re: #7 Conservative Moonbat

He's also a member of PETA's board of directors. He takes being a flake to the full extreme.

Hmmm, I'm starting to think he's in it for the ladies.

9 Spider Mensch  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:38:26pm

I had posted this in a morning thread earlier this week...maybe bill (when 2 assholes mate, I'm the result) maher can get his own page like jenny ( i'm an idiot celebrity so my opinion counts more than your) mccarthy has...
[Link: www.jennymccarthybodycount.com...]

10 prairiefire  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:38:51pm

To each his own, but that guy gives me the idea he is Skanky Freak!

11 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:39:50pm

Just when I start to think Bill Mahar might turn out to be an intelligent social and political commentator, he plunges into the depths of stupidity. Guess we can ignore him now.

12 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:41:02pm

Bill Maher is "King Massengill".

/what a douche.

13 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:41:29pm

re: #11 Surabaya Stew

Might turn out to be? He's been a full bore anti-vaxxer from the get-go (years - since 2005 at least); he's just being called on the carpet for his asinine position yet again.

14 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:44:57pm

*snip*

Anyway, Ms. Fisher is someone who says she is not "anti-vaccine," but just has a lot of questions about the long term effect of using a lot of vaccines. After devoting her life to studying this, she says that the influenza vaccine studies that have been done "are not persuasive in proving that a seasonal flu shot provides immunity." She also points out "that what we need, but do not yet have, are studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children."

/Well the antivaxers are taking care of that little problem.

Unfortunately, they are gambling with their children's lives.

15 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #13 lawhawk

Might turn out to be? He's been a full bore anti-vaxxer from the get-go (years - since 2005 at least); he's just being called on the carpet for his asinine position yet again.

If he has, then I missed it.; show's he's in this craziness for the long haul then! Good thing he's being publicly called on it now.
(I'd thank you again, but 3 times in a day is getting ridiculous.)
:-D

16 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:46:40pm

Anti-vaxism is contagious.

17 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:48:03pm

With one foot in the Hollywood clique the Huffington Post has had a habit of hosting anti-vaccination babble. It's common within celebrity circles to find self-appointed experts such as stand-up comedian turned talk show host turned vaccination and medical expert, Bill Maher.

Similar to him we find Jenny McCarty and other self-appointed experts such as Ed Begley, Jr. the "energy expert" or Brad Pitt the architecture and urban planning expert. Who can forget Meryl Streep's "testimony in congress regarding alar. Or how Jane Fonda, by way of the move "China Syndrome" became an expert on nuclear power -- the movie acting as an "instructional film" for decades.

The scandal here is that a good majority of Americans take these feeble uneducated points of view as facts. In this case, it would be no surprise to find a large percentage of Americans being swayed by Maher's ignorance on the subject matter then they would be a licensed medical doctor.

18 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:48:29pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Anti-vaxism is contagious.

Too bad there's not a vaccine for it.

19 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:48:36pm

I still maintain that Maher only wants to get in McCarthy's pants.

Stupid slut though she may be, she's not going to fall for it.

20 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:49:30pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I still maintain that Maher only wants to get in McCarthy's pants.

Stupid slut though she may be, she's not going to fall for it.

Why not, too many wrinkles?
/

21 Barbarian at the Gate  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:49:48pm

Bill Maher is still pro Israel - that's the best I can say for him.

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:52:12pm

Doesn't he also think we are all stoopid?

23 Barbarian at the Gate  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:52:30pm

By the way i was watching O'Reilly last night and he had Charles Krauthammer on and he constantly interrupted him. O'Reilly thinks that all the interviews are about him and him alone. The 'hammer is such a brilliant guy (a trained psychiatrist too!) and having O'Reilly cut him off to pontificate is such a bad thing IMHO.

24 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:52:40pm

Oh Bill. You have a funny show, sometimes. But you're a loon.

25 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:53:51pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I still maintain that Maher only wants to get in McCarthy's pants.

Stupid slut though she may be, she's not going to fall for it.


Maher does always seem to have motivations based on nothing more than whim and/or politics of the moment. I don't see him as a man of any strong convictions other than that you should have strong convictions.

On of my favorite Onion articles:

Bill Maher Spends All Night Arguing With Republican Hooker

Content is obviously directly sexual in nature.

26 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:54:06pm

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

Doesn't he also think we are all stoopid?

His thoughts on religion are no more cogent than his ideas about science.

27 vxbush  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:54:22pm

re: #17 Gus 802

With one foot in the Hollywood clique the Huffington Post has had a habit of hosting anti-vaccination babble. It's common within celebrity circles to find self-appointed experts such as stand-up comedian turned talk show host turned vaccination and medical expert, Bill Maher.

Similar to him we find Jenny McCarty and other self-appointed experts such as Ed Begley, Jr. the "energy expert" or Brad Pitt the architecture and urban planning expert. Who can forget Meryl Streep's "testimony in congress regarding alar. Or how Jane Fonda, by way of the move "China Syndrome" became an expert on nuclear power -- the movie acting as an "instructional film" for decades.

The scandal here is that a good majority of Americans take these feeble uneducated points of view as facts. In this case, it would be no surprise to find a large percentage of Americans being swayed by Maher's ignorance on the subject matter then they would be a licensed medical doctor.

I think part of that reason is because these folks can speak in simple words and simple concepts that sound reasonable and tempting, and yet the doctor has a harder time explaining some of the concepts around vaccination. Not all the reasons for vaccination are difficult to understand, but those reasons often aren't given by Beautiful People.™

28 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:55:29pm

Maybe it's me -- but rarely, when researching vaccines and their effects, do I consult comedians -- or former Playboy centerfolds, for that matter. I gotta say, I do find it frustrating sometimes that the M (forget the MS part) gives so much face time to "gee, I'm not a scientist, but I spelled it on TV one time" non-experts on important subjects.

I know there are more than a few sciencegeek lizards around here -- while we're VAGUELY on the vaccination topic, a while back I saw the briefest glimpse of an autism study that focused not on vaccines, but TV and the early development of the visual cortex. As I recall, the scientists took a very cautious view, saying that there's enough data to at least examine the idea, but not enough to draw substantial conclusions: the bottom line is that they have observed possible links between autism and being plopped in front of a rapidly-refreshing electronic screen for extended periods before age 2, the germ of the idea being that exposure to brightly moving images with modern screen refresh rates might well interfere with how a child learns to process visual data in the critical first couple of years. (Content was not relevant, the process of converting light to comprehensible concepts was the thrust.) To my non-medically-trained brain, this seems like a promising line of research. But I've seen or heard little to nothing in ANY media since. Has anybody else seen anything about this study?

29 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:55:48pm

re: #27 vxbush

I think part of that reason is because these folks can speak in simple words and simple concepts that sound reasonable and tempting, and yet the doctor has a harder time explaining some of the concepts around vaccination. Not all the reasons for vaccination are difficult to understand, but those reasons often aren't given by Beautiful People.™

Yes, and those that they idolize. Which is an unfortunate aspect of modern society: the idolization of celebrity.

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:57:07pm

re: #11 Surabaya Stew

Just when I start to think Bill Mahar might turn out to be an intelligent social and political commentator, he plunges into the depths of stupidity. Guess we can ignore him now.

He's a comedian, more than a commentator. If he believes some crazy shit, hey! Par for the course for funny men. If I ignored every comedian or musician or writer that held some wacky belief, I would have no books on my bookshelf and no records in my record collection.

Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.

31 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:58:28pm

re: #28 Slap

Oh boy. Any links for us? A friend of mine has an autistic brother, and his family doesn't even OWN a TV. ;-)

32 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:58:33pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I still maintain that Maher only wants to get in McCarthy's pants.

Stupid slut though she may be, she's not going to fall for it.

that pinhead can barely get into his own pants...clearly he is all about Bill and nothing else...is he related to you?

33 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:59:28pm

re: #18 Conservative Moonbat

Too bad there's not a vaccine for it.

It would have to be delivered through the water supply.

34 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:59:34pm

I love the smell of anti-vaxer nonsense burning in the morning ... smells like ...quackery.

35 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 12:59:59pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

Fuck. You.

36 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:00:03pm

re: #33 MandyManners

It would have to be delivered through the water supply.

You mean, with the flouride?

37 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:00:41pm

re: #30 WindUpBird


Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.

Yeah, this is an important part. That this is even an issue at all reveals a major problem with public health in the US.

I think that the anti-science agenda propagated by both the 'left' and 'right', but most of all by the scaremongering media, is the most to blame for that. But I also think the institutionalization of doctors in hospitals is a large part of it.

I think that if we had far more nurse practitioners and physicians assistants doing front-line care and patient education, we'd see better US attitudes towards health and science.

But we can't get away that some people in politics purposefully demonize science to score electoral points, which I find stupefyingly stupid.

38 Spider Mensch  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:01:35pm

and in a related story mtv whore/celebrity, Tila Tequila will express her views in an editorial regarding climate change..."well to start off with, if the world gets warmer, then all us girls can start wearing even less clothing!! and if sea levels rise, well then I'll always be closer to the beach, no matter where I am...teehee!"

/debate those points of view al gore & our resident climate experts!

39 What, me worry?  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:01:59pm

re: #28 Slap

Maybe it's me -- but rarely, when researching vaccines and their effects, do I consult comedians -- or former Playboy centerfolds, for that matter. I gotta say, I do find it frustrating sometimes that the M (forget the MS part) gives so much face time to "gee, I'm not a scientist, but I spelled it on TV one time" non-experts on important subjects.

I know there are more than a few sciencegeek lizards around here -- while we're VAGUELY on the vaccination topic, a while back I saw the briefest glimpse of an autism study that focused not on vaccines, but TV and the early development of the visual cortex. As I recall, the scientists took a very cautious view, saying that there's enough data to at least examine the idea, but not enough to draw substantial conclusions: the bottom line is that they have observed possible links between autism and being plopped in front of a rapidly-refreshing electronic screen for extended periods before age 2, the germ of the idea being that exposure to brightly moving images with modern screen refresh rates might well interfere with how a child learns to process visual data in the critical first couple of years. (Content was not relevant, the process of converting light to comprehensible concepts was the thrust.) To my non-medically-trained brain, this seems like a promising line of research. But I've seen or heard little to nothing in ANY media since. Has anybody else seen anything about this study?

LOL Didn't follow the Carrie Prejean Virginity Tour didja?! Probably a good thing that. She left a trail of porn along the way.

I used to adore Bill Maher. Now... um... not so much. In fact, he stinks.

Have no idea if TV watching is related to autism, but I tend to call BS on it. Otherwise I would think every child would have some degree of autism.

40 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:02:15pm

re: #30 WindUpBird

He's a comedian, more than a commentator. If he believes some crazy shit, hey! Par for the course for funny men. If I ignored every comedian or musician or writer that held some wacky belief, I would have no books on my bookshelf and no records in my record collection.

Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.

no worse than taking their health care advice from Nancy Pelosi...

41 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:02:17pm

Step 1) Maher says something idiotic about vaccination.

Step 2) Using facts and science as his blades, Orac slices Maher like a loaf of bread.

Step 3) Having learned nothing, Maher returns to step 1.

You think it would get boring after a while but it is highly entertaining!

42 chicagodudewhotrades  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:02:50pm

re: #37 Obdicut

But I also think the institutionalization of doctors in hospitals is a large part of it.

just curious, what do you mean by that?

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:03:13pm

Teeny tiny baby coffins.

44 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:03:20pm

re: #33 MandyManners

It would have to be delivered through the water supply.

Maybe it already is. That's why I only drink rainwater and grain alcohol.

45 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:03:26pm

re: #37 Obdicut

Yeah, this is an important part. That this is even an issue at all reveals a major problem with public health in the US.

I think that the anti-science agenda propagated by both the 'left' and 'right', but most of all by the scaremongering media, is the most to blame for that. But I also think the institutionalization of doctors in hospitals is a large part of it.

I think that if we had far more nurse practitioners and physicians assistants doing front-line care and patient education, we'd see better US attitudes towards health and science.

But we can't get away that some people in politics purposefully demonize science to score electoral points, which I find stupefyingly stupid.

Several of my bar-fly friends are nurses and CNAs, and when you get a couple pints of Mirror Pond into them, they say exactly this. Too much emphasis on specialists over GPs as well.

46 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:04:50pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

You mean, with the flouride?

LEAVE MY PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS OUT OF THIS.

47 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:05:55pm

re: #44 Conservative Moonbat

Maybe it already is. That's why I only drink rainwater and grain alcohol.

Me, too.

*hic*

48 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:06:12pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Teeny tiny baby coffins.

8-(

49 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:06:13pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

But then it would counteract what the fluoride is supposed to be doing.

50 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:06:32pm

re: #40 albusteve

no worse than taking their health care advice from Nancy Pelosi...

Someone's gotta pass health care reform! I know that appalls you. ;-)

51 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:08:07pm

Gotta' go redistribute my wealth. bbl

52 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:09:06pm

I used to kind of like Maher until in 2000 he voted for Nader. He claimed to be a Libertarian before that.

53 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:09:25pm

Here's another rumor making the rounds: Green Monkey cells use to make H1N1 vaccine

The rumor is that the "swine flu" vaccine was derived from the genes of African green monkeys. It's believed by some that those moneys were the original source of the HIV virus.

The stupid is strong in these Earthlings, Lord Vader!

54 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:09:34pm

re: #42 chicagodudewhotrades

But I also think the institutionalization of doctors in hospitals is a large part of it.

just curious, what do you mean by that?

I mean that hospitals are often a cold and unfriendly place, and that in ICU units especially, a lot of the care, delivered in the best way and with the best of intentions, can't overcome the stress and strain of being in the hospital. Add to that the rate of MRSA infection and other hospital-only infections, and people have very valid fear of going to the hospital.

I think that the practice of medicine has changed, becoming more and more specialized-- which is great, in certain ways-- but that there is a cost. Primary care doctors are reimbursed at lower rates than specialists, partially because much of what they do is 'simple' medicine, that could easily be done-- and actually done better-- by experiences nurse practitioners and physician assistants.

It was in no way a slam against doctors.

I am, of course, an amateur in this area: I highly recommend the books Intern, by Sadeep Jauhar, and Better, by Atul Gawande, for more of what I'm talking about, expressed far better than I ever could. Gawande also has some excellent New Yorker articles on the subject of health care.

55 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:09:51pm

re: #50 WindUpBird

Someone's gotta pass health care reform! I know that appalls you. ;-)

no, the bill appalls me...do you see a difference?...or do you lockstep with Pelosi and trust her and her minions?

56 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:11:32pm

re: #45 WindUpBird

By the way, off-topic: is your name from the Murakami book?

57 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:11:58pm

re: #30 WindUpBird

He's a comedian, more than a commentator. If he believes some crazy shit, hey! Par for the course for funny men. If I ignored every comedian or musician or writer that held some wacky belief, I would have no books on my bookshelf and no records in my record collection.

Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.


Agreed on the value of health advice coming from any comedian being of dubious value. And I'll still watch Bill skewing hypocrites and cracking jokes, will just have to tune out when he get "serious".

58 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:12:08pm

Isn't this a moot issue, since a lot of us can't find any H1N1 if we wanted to get it?

59 SeaMonkey  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:12:09pm

"Debates" like this do the almost-impossible: They make me sympathetic to global warming deniers. When you start calling people "stupid" and "crazy," they stop listening and think there must be something to it if people are so angry.

Half the blame for this comes not from the intransigence and pig-headed willful ignorance of windbags like Bill Maher, but from the arrogance, condescension, and plain old misinformation of the most corrupt and regressive of all industries, Big Pharma, and the CDC.

How about compassion and actual information for the scared and angry parents of autistic children, rather than blame and accusations of neanderthalism?

60 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:12:20pm

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

61 chicagodudewhotrades  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:13:14pm

re: #54 Obdicut


a friend's sister is on the staff at Mayo clinic. She has said some of the same things. I just didn't understand what you meant at first

62 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:13:35pm

My opinion on autism cannot be trusted, because my family is affected.
Disclaiming that, I think there is more than one condition traveling under that name. My grandaughter is on a very strict non-wheat/non-dairy diet. It
absolutely does not cure her
, but her condition is vastly worse if she comes off the diet. Responsible research on the diet help, for some kids, is coming out of Uppsala.

Her mother, who teaches Biology, has fallen in and out of the anti-vax trap. In her case, I think it was caused by her personal hit and her Libertarian husband's crap. We have discussions.

63 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:13:43pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

Mine jumped so high this year that my company canceled 401(k) matching so that they didn't have to raise our health care pay-in. They kept the company stock matching program, though.

64 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:14:05pm

re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Teeny tiny baby coffins.

You mean like these?

65 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:14:19pm

re: #61 chicagodudewhotrades

a friend's sister is on the staff at Mayo clinic. She has said some of the same things. I just didn't understand what you meant at first

No problem, I'm always happy to clarify.

66 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:14:26pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

My last job I paid $25 a week. You got kids?

67 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:14:34pm

re: #14 Bubblehead II
You'll love this
Google search page ONE, only the 6th one down the list.
No studies huh?


excerpt
Children

A 4-year randomized, placebo-controlled trial of children aged 1-15 years found vaccine effectiveness ranging from 77% to 91%, following only one dose of vaccine given to previously unvaccinated children (Neuzil, Pediatric Infectious Diseases Journal, 2001).

Another 2-year study of children aged 6-24 months found that the vaccine was 66% effective against laboratory-confirmed influenza in year 1 of the study. Only children who were fully vaccinated (i.e. had either 2 doses if not previously vaccinated, or 1 dose if previously vaccinated) versus unvaccinated children were included in the analysis. In the other year, few cases of influenza occurred, making it difficult to assess the vaccine’s effectiveness.

A study of influenza vaccine effectiveness among >5,000 children aged 6-23 months found vaccine effectiveness of 49% against clinically diagnosed pneumonia or influenza among fully vaccinated children (Ritzwoller, Pediatrics 2005).

All of these studies together suggest substantial benefit from influenza vaccination of children.

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:15:20pm

re: #56 Obdicut

By the way, off-topic: is your name from the Murakami book?


It's actually not, though I own the book. (haven't read it yet) Weird huh?

It's actually more a reference to the glowing costume bird head I wear at fantasy conventions, which is my avatar. ^_^

69 Idle Drifter  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:15:33pm

It almost seems like there is a combined though not mutual effort to drag civilization back into the dark ages. Of course, the players on this field of ignorance would tear each other a new one are totally unaware of this interesting fact. Is it going to take a pandemic that kills a quarter or more of the world's population before these anti-vaxers get the heads out of their collective asses? I hope not.

70 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:15:40pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

That sucks major ass!

71 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:15:41pm

If anyone knows anything about Wound Management, it has to be the Israelis...

Israel21C is reporting that EnzySurge out of Rosh Ha'ayin, Israel is expecting to begin FDA approval process for the complete DermaStream CST system. The wound healing device is designed to be placed over a wound to provide continuous cleaning and washing away of debris and extravasated fluid. Although the device itself received FDA clearance, the bio-active chemical solution that it is supposed to work with it has yet to get a green light.

Once again... Israelis design and build innovative products that help people heal faster. Palestinians blow stuff up.

72 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:15:48pm

re: #30 WindUpBird

He's a comedian, more than a commentator. If he believes some crazy shit, hey! Par for the course for funny men. If I ignored every comedian or musician or writer that held some wacky belief, I would have no books on my bookshelf and no records in my record collection.

Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.

Let's see. Bill Cosby is a comedian, yet he pontificates on a lot of things like family issues and social issues.

The general public DOES listen to highly visible public people. And you can't assume that everyone is as smart as you are.

In the least, this is irresponsible on Maher's part. His opinion does matter.

73 Pickles  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:16:36pm

I have always found Maher irritating. I just can't watch him. His anti vaxx stance is even more of a reason for me to avoid the guy.

74 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:17:04pm

re: #44 Conservative Moonbat

Maybe it already is. That's why I only drink rainwater and grain alcohol.

Good call. Can't be too safe.

75 Slap  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:17:09pm

re: #31 WindUpBird

Unfortunately, that's why I asked -- I got nuttin' except the memory of the concept. And it wasn't confined to TVs -- essentially any screen with a non-natural rapid refresh rate, which made sense to me. Not from an alarmist standpoint, 'cuz that ain't me. (OK, ONCE I was afraid Kenny G would take over the airwaves. Turned out to be a false alarm, but worth getting alarmed about, nonetheless.) Some non-science folks have linked the rise in autism to vaccines, which has never made visceral sense to me; when I originally saw this, it was like a light shone. CRT, LCD and plasma screen refresh rates have increased exponentially; many parents think it's OK to plop their 1-yr old in front of a computer screen or TV as long as it's a baby einstein, disney or some such non-threatening content. Most of us posting here did not get exposed to this non-natural visual thingy when we were that age -- perhaps older CRT screens had a refresh rate that our conprehension could keep up with a little easier at age 1. I am intensely curious to actually see something substantive on this.

76 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:17:31pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

The scope of your responsibility is exactly the scope of your audience.

77 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:18:11pm

re: #24 WindUpBird

Heh. The moment I realised I watched too much of his show was when I told my wife to "put down the Kool-aid". Much grovelling followed.

Anti-vaxers: They can be so vocal about the risks of vaccination because they have never had to deal with the risk of large numbers of people being unvaccingated. Their precious off-spring can be protected from the evils of vaccines because other children have had the vaccines that prevent diseases like polio, measles and rubella from running rampant. The problem is that once the percentage of people who have been vaccinated drops below a certain level, it's playtime for the pathogens, and the unvaccinated will get hit the hardest/

78 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:18:13pm

re: #68 WindUpBird

It's actually not, though I own the book. (haven't read it yet) Weird huh?

It's actually more a reference to the glowing costume bird head I wear at fantasy conventions, which is my avatar. ^_^

Thanks, that was gonna bug me. It's a really, really twisted book, by the way, in a great way.

79 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:18:58pm

re: #76 Rightwingconspirator

The scope of your responsibility is exactly the scope of your audience.

Unless you can convince your audience to turn against your non-audience members, just sayin'...

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #66 Cannadian Club Akbar

No kids, thankfully.

81 Pickles  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:19:36pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

It is. We had our annual benefits selection this year and my share of the health insurance premium for me and the family is going to $600/month. That is ridiculous. The company total pays $1,200 a month for my plan but they eat $600 of it. We are taking pay cuts in the next 3 years that amount to around 12 percent as well so this really stings.

82 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:20:23pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

We just did the re-sign up and had to raise our deductible from $3000 to $5000 and nix the "health care credit" because our premium doubled.
It sucks.

83 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:21:45pm

re: #63 Obdicut

Mine jumped so high this year that my company canceled 401(k) matching so that they didn't have to raise our health care pay-in. They kept the company stock matching program, though.

I'm sure most companies are cutting back on raises and hiring because of this. Most employees never see their insurance premiums so they don't really notice. I'm shocked.

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:21:48pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

Let's see. Bill Cosby is a comedian, yet he pontificates on a lot of things like family issues and social issues.

The general public DOES listen to highly visible public people. And you can't assume that everyone is as smart as you are.

In the least, this is irresponsible on Maher's part. His opinion does matter.

I agree that it does suck that he's got all this anti-vax stuff out there, and that he's influencing public opinion about it. It is irresponsible, and I wish he wouldn't, certainly. But that's America, we distrust institutions, and we like rebels, we like a good conspiracy theory.

I guess what I'm saying is it's irresponsible, but I expect funny and talented people in media and art to be irresponsible. I'm surprised when they're not.

(Bill Cosby ftw, Bill Cosby Himself is one of the greatest comedic performances ever)

85 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:22:02pm

re: #62 Decatur Deb

My grandaughter is on a very strict non-wheat/non-dairy diet. It absolutely does not cure her, but her condition is vastly worse if she comes off the diet.

Back before the invention of many of the anti seizure medications, the best way to control epileptic seizures was through a controlled diet. It's not used as much anymore, but the Ketogenic Diet is still around.

86 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:22:30pm

re: #82 webevintage

My last job, insurance paid 80%. But once you hit $1500 out of pocket, the company would reimburse you for those expenses. Guess it comes down to the individual company.

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #76 Rightwingconspirator

The scope of your responsibility is exactly the scope of your audience.

Tell that to Jimmy Page. :D

88 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:23:33pm

re: #82 webevintage

That's why I paid this bill. My first reaction was to just drop my insurance but I'm afraid to because then I have to start a new policy, at that point they can do anything they want to you.

89 Cato the Elder  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:25:43pm

re: #20 Surabaya Stew

Why not, too many wrinkles?
/

I think it's the greasy hair.

Besides, she's already married to a stupid prick. Why go out of bounds when you can get it at home?

90 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:25:58pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

I'm paying about $3500 next year (family). Thats about $800 more than this year.

Health care is not cheap.

I wonder what the cost will be under government care?

91 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:26:23pm

re: #85 SteveC

Back before the invention of many of the anti seizure medications, the best way to control epileptic seizures was through a controlled diet. It's not used as much anymore, but the Ketogenic Diet is still around.

That might be an early version of the same approach. There have been statistical links between autism and forms of epilepsy.

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:26:49pm

re: #90 Racer X

I'm paying about $3500 next year (family). Thats about $800 more than this year.

Health care is not cheap.

I wonder what the cost will be under government care?

Under the gubment, it's free. They told me so.
///

93 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:26:56pm

The German health care system is in trouble

BERLIN -- Germany's century-old universal health-care system, a model cited by reform advocates in the U.S. Congress, is buckling under the weight of a growing deficit that has forced the government to explore an overhaul.

94 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:27:10pm

re: #90 Racer X

I'm paying about $3500 next year (family). Thats about $800 more than this year.

Health care is not cheap.

I wonder what the cost will be under government care?

Maybe we could compare it to the existing single-payer or double-mandate systems in existence already across the industrialized West? You know, the ones in every other Western nation other than ours?

95 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:28:20pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

That's why I paid this bill. My first reaction was to just drop my insurance but I'm afraid to because then I have to start a new policy, at that point they can do anything they want to you.

At least you have that option of continuing your existing policy. My previous employeer changed plans and companies every year, creating no end of hassle and confusion. A small yet significant part of health care costs could be accounted for just by measuring the cost of wasted time and resources of patients dealing with different billing procedures, providers with incorrect billing information, and all kinds of associated nonsense.

96 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:28:44pm

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

Under the gubment, it's free. They told me so.
///

Then explain that gosh awful big price tag parked on the South Lawn?

97 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:28:53pm

Christians are so funny:
[Link: features.csmonitor.com...]

well not really, and I'm not sure if one who would wear a t-shirt like that or put one of those bumper stickers on their car are really followers of Christ.

98 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:29:03pm

re: #67 Rightwingconspirator

This guy doesn't think so.

Russle Blaylock MD

2. Do flu shots work?
Not in babies: In a review of more than 51 studies involving more than
294,000 children it was found there was “no evidence that injecting
children 6-24 months of age with a flu shot was any more effective than
placebo. In children over 2 yrs, it was only effective 33% of the time in
preventing the flu. Reference: Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy
children." The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews. 2 (2008)

99 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:30:04pm

re: #90 Racer X

I'm paying about $3500 next year (family). Thats about $800 more than this year.

Health care is not cheap.

I wonder what the cost will be under government care?

One would hope that the rise in cost of government care would be at least be held to the inflation index, otherwise it won't be worth it.

100 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:30:19pm

re: #96 SteveC

Then explain that gosh awful big price tag parked on the South Lawn?

Bids requested.
Project: Re-sod South Lawn
Estimated Project Cost: 3 trillion dollars.

Inquire within.

/

101 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:31:51pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Bids requested.
Project: Re-sod South Lawn
Estimated Project Cost: 3 trillion dollars.

Inquire within.

/


I'll do it for 2 trillion then hire a union to do it for $550 million.
//

102 SteveC  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:32:05pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Bids requested.
Project: Re-sod South Lawn
Estimated Project Cost: 3 trillion dollars.

Inquire within.

/

Somebody overestimated the amount of fertilizer!

103 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:32:30pm

re: #101 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'll do it for 2 trillion then hire a union to do it for $550 million.
//

Should be good for at least 2.38 jobs.

/

104 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:32:48pm

re: #90 Racer X


I wonder what the cost will be under government care?

It's going to be free right?

105 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:33:23pm

re: #98 Bubblehead II

BTW, he is one of the people Bill cited in his article at the HuffPo

106 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:34:24pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Well, I've officially become a supporter of healtcare reform. I sat down to pay bills today and My insurance premium just jumped up over $100 per month from $300 to over $400! I went back and pulled an old bill to discover that in August of 2003 my premium was $170 a month. This is fucking insane.

they are setting up for the big gouge...here's an idea, strip your bank accounts dry, quit your job to become a street mime (cash only tips), and cop your almost free medical care from the state...

107 Ben Hur  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:34:49pm

re: #30 WindUpBird

He's a comedian, more than a commentator. If he believes some crazy shit, hey! Par for the course for funny men. If I ignored every comedian or musician or writer that held some wacky belief, I would have no books on my bookshelf and no records in my record collection.

Having said all that, anyone who is getting their health advice from Bill Maher is screaming bonkers.

Yeah.

It's not like he's telling people not to get mammograms, or something.

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:35:18pm

re: #106 albusteve

they are setting up for the big gouge...here's an idea, strip your bank accounts dry, quit your job to become a street mime (cash only tips), and cop your almost free medical care from the state...

Mime? No fuckin' way. Ever seen Shakes the Clown?

109 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:36:26pm

Speaking of health care. Kathleen Sebelius rebuts the mammography recommendations:

U.S. health chief: No change on mammogram policy

"My message to women is simple. Mammograms have always been an important life-saving tool in the fight against breast cancer, and they still are today," Sebelius said in a statement.

"Keep doing what you have been doing for years -- talk to your doctor about your individual history, ask questions and make the decision that is right for you."

110 Idle Drifter  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:37:36pm

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Clowns will destroy us all!

111 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:38:27pm

Speaking of health care reform there is going to be one of those free medical clinics this weekend in little Rock sponsered by Countdown (like the one they did in NOLA last weekend, maybe the only thing KO has done lately that is not annoying) and at last check NONE of out Congress Critters are going to attend.
Ugh and ugh and I guess if you don't see these people then they don't really exist to Blanche and Mark and Mike.

The good thing is they have volunteers coming out the wazoo...

112 Ben Hur  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:38:32pm

re: #109 Gus 802

PErfect timing.

Just brought that up.

Good to see that the universal outrage has caused some backtracking.

113 samsgran1948  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:38:33pm

In the early 50s, my parents were ecstatic to be able to take me to the doctor and have me vaccinated against polio. But it took a while for total coverage to be achieved, so I grew up around kids in wheelchairs, kinds on crutches and kids with physical disabilities they hadn't been born with.
Today, many of my generation are beginning to suffer the recurrance of polio infirmities.

The anti-vaxers scare the hell out of me.

114 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:38:47pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

I read your link. The difference is that the Uppsala diet doesn't try to elevate fat. The researcher claims to have found opiate-related metabolites in his subjects when on wheat or casein.

115 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #109 Gus 802

Damn. Sorting out who has credibility from those who have mere authority is going to be really tough on this one. Makes the AGW equivalent appear easy by comparison. Well, I guess something had to. :)

116 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:39:05pm

re: #107 Ben Hur

Yeah.

It's not like he's telling people not to get mammograms, or something.

/thread

117 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:39:23pm

re: #112 Ben Hur

PErfect timing.

Just brought that up.

Good to see that the universal outrage has caused some backtracking.

Yeah, I was typing that when you posted yours. Saw it while browsing the news.

118 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:40:47pm

re: #113 samsgran1948


The anti-vaxers scare the hell out of me.

I used to be an anti-vaxer, but I got better...

119 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:41:26pm

re: #118 webevintage

I used to be an anti-vaxer, but I got better...

There's a vaccine for that. ;)

120 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:42:14pm

re: #95 Surabaya Stew

At least you have that option of continuing your existing policy. My previous employeer changed plans and companies every year, creating no end of hassle and confusion. A small yet significant part of health care costs could be accounted for just by measuring the cost of wasted time and resources of patients dealing with different billing procedures, providers with incorrect billing information, and all kinds of associated nonsense.

Surabaya, what happens to people with a pre-existing condition if the employer switches policies? Is the insurance company obliged to accept them with the condition covered, or can a condition that was covered previously be deemed in-eligible?

121 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:44:59pm

health care delivery?...the feds have has 200 years to figure out how to deliver the mail and break even, they have failed dismally...the feds have never once improved a situation by intruding into the free markets, not once...there is no reason to believe that health care will be any different...they didn't deliver on the stimulus bill...and the credit problem so far has only benefited the lenders who are big fans of many high ranking democrats...the feds are not your friends, we are here for them to exploit...that's a fact, look at their own health care and pensions that you pay for them

122 Stanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:45:49pm

re: #120 Kruk

Surabaya, what happens to people with a pre-existing condition if the employer switches policies? Is the insurance company obliged to accept them with the condition covered, or can a condition that was covered previously be deemed in-eligible?

From my experience, the employer ends up knowing about the employee or employee's family member who has the pre-existing condition, and can determine their plan based upon that employee being covered.

Which leads to people knowing about your pre-existing condition (I worked in the office, so I got to "know" this stuff),

It's kind of slippery in my opinion.

123 Guanxi88  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:46:30pm

re: #121 albusteve

health care delivery?...the feds have has 200 years to figure out how to deliver the mail and break even, they have failed dismally...the feds have never once improved a situation by intruding into the free markets, not once...there is no reason to believe that health care will be any different...they didn't deliver on the stimulus bill...and the credit problem so far has only benefited the lenders who are big fans of many high ranking democrats...the feds are not your friends, we are here for them to exploit...that's a fact, look at their own health care and pensions that you pay for them

But it'll be different this time. Really, it will.

124 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:47:56pm

re: #120 Kruk

Surabaya, what happens to people with a pre-existing condition if the employer switches policies? Is the insurance company obliged to accept them with the condition covered, or can a condition that was covered previously be deemed in-eligible?

If there is no gap in coverage, plan changes should not affect an employee's eligibility for coverage.
re: #122 Stanley Sea

From my experience, the employer ends up knowing about the employee or employee's family member who has the pre-existing condition, and can determine their plan based upon that employee being covered.

Which leads to people knowing about your pre-existing condition (I worked in the office, so I got to "know" this stuff),

It's kind of slippery in my opinion.

This may happen with employers who employe a small number of people. But I can tell you - it would be virtually impossible to do this if the employer had a large number of employees, each with his own conditions and also each with various family members with various conditions.

125 Ben Hur  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:48:08pm

re: #123 Guanxi88

But it'll be different this time. Really, it will.

There's a Apple advert parody just waiting to be written.

126 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:49:29pm

re: #123 Guanxi88

But it'll be different this time. Really, it will.

Like the:

Paperwork Reduction Act (44 U.S.C. 3501 et seq.)

/

127 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:50:01pm

re: #121 albusteve

My insurance premium more than doubled in the past five years. In another 5 years it will be more than my mortgage. 5 years after that it will be it will be double my mortgage. Very soon we're looking at the possibility that only the very wealthiest people could even think of buying insurance. What happens to the rest of us? I'll take my chances with the Dems.

128 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:50:32pm

re: #120 Kruk

Surabaya, what happens to people with a pre-existing condition if the employer switches policies? Is the insurance company obliged to accept them with the condition covered, or can a condition that was covered previously be deemed in-eligible?

My understanding is that once an insurance company accepts a business as a client, it is obliged to accept all its employees. However, they can check into their employees and see if any of them have expensive pre-existing conditions, and adjust their prices accordingly. My previous firm was made up of primarily young people, so we didn't have anybody who was high-cost.

However, my firm before that had an employee that came down with cancer, so they didn't change insurance providers for years until they let the employee go recently; after which they got a new provider! I pray that these 2 facts are unrelated, but my gut tells me otherwise...

129 humpty dumpty was pushed  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:51:00pm

re: #19 Cato the Elder

I still maintain that Maher only wants to get in McCarthy's pants.

Stupid slut though she may be, she's not going to fall for it.


Doubtful, based on a past statement he made about another wild blonde bombshell. On his show, Maher sneered that Carrie Prejean "looks like a transvestite"...

130 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:52:11pm

re: #128 Surabaya Stew

I pray that these 2 facts are unrelated, but my gut tells me otherwise...


Hmm, that's a troubling thought.

131 Stanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:52:26pm

re: #124 reine.de.tout

This may happen with employers who employe a small number of people. But I can tell you - it would be virtually impossible to do this if the employer had a large number of employees, each with his own conditions and also each with various family members with various conditions.

Small employer - 20 employees.

132 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:53:12pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

My insurance premium more than doubled in the past five years. In another 5 years it will be more than my mortgage. 5 years after that it will be it will be double my mortgage. Very soon we're looking at the possibility that only the very wealthiest people could even think of buying insurance. What happens to the rest of us? I'll take my chances with the Dems.

you don't have a choice...this House bill is like 99.9% partisan

133 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:54:06pm

re: #124 reine.de.tout

If there is no gap in coverage, plan changes should not affect an employee's eligibility for coverage.

Correct; they are eligible for coverage regardless of any pre-existing condition, but the employer is on the hook for any price increases due to the higher cost of covering said pre-existing condition. I think thats the case, could be wrong though.

134 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:55:27pm

re: #132 albusteve

That's fine by me.

135 Stanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:55:37pm

re: #133 Surabaya Stew

Correct; they are eligible for coverage regardless of any pre-existing condition, but the employer is on the hook for any price increases due to the higher cost of covering said pre-existing condition. I think thats the case, could be wrong though.

Like you said, the employer (small in my experience) will keep the same plan for years to cover a desirable employee (or family member).

136 Stanghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:56:33pm

re: #135 Stanley Sea

Like you said, the employer (small in my experience) will keep the same plan for years to cover a desirable employee (or family member).

Insurance renewal time is hellish for the small business.

137 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:57:13pm

re: #130 Killgore Trout

Hmm, that's a troubling thought.

It is indeed, because my former employer was one of the most righteous people I have even known. To think that he may have cut an sick employee just to cover the company finances makes me uneasy to be in such a position one day.

138 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 1:59:56pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

My insurance premium more than doubled in the past five years. In another 5 years it will be more than my mortgage. 5 years after that it will be it will be double my mortgage. Very soon we're looking at the possibility that only the very wealthiest people could even think of buying insurance. What happens to the rest of us? I'll take my chances with the Dems.

I wonder what is causing costs to go up? Who is getting filthy rich off us?

139 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:00:03pm

re: #136 Stanley Sea

Insurance renewal time is hellish for the small business.

And their employees. Any new health plan raises the possibility of not covering one's favorite doctor or specialist.

140 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:00:04pm

Federal Resigster Pages Published Annually (PDF)

and:

How many regulations are there? According to the Office of the Federal Register, in 1998, the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), the official listing of all regulations in effect, contained a total of 134,723 pages in 201 volumes that claimed 19 feet of shelf space. In 1970, the CFR totaled only 54,834 pages.

That just the Federal Code of Regulations. There are others. Oh, and that's from 11 years ago.

141 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

What happens to the rest of us? I'll take my chances with the Dems.

Well we are screwed until we are 63 (or is it 65?) but by then the Republicans will be back to trying to end Medicare.

(I have no answer for health care reform except that it needs to be done and that it needs to be more then tort reform and letting insurance companies sell in whatever state they want to.)

142 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:01:03pm

re: #137 Surabaya Stew

It is indeed, because my former employer was one of the most righteous people I have even known. To think that he may have cut an sick employee just to cover the company finances makes me uneasy to be in such a position one day.

I'm really angry at the Democrats for not positing this debate more in the line of helping small businesses. It was the obvious way to sell this, a perfectly honest and good way to explain it.

They bungled the hell out of it.

143 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:02:35pm

re: #138 Racer X

I wonder what is causing costs to go up? Who is getting filthy rich off us?

Here is an excellent article by Atul Gawande that addresses part, but only part, of that question:

Link

144 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:02:57pm

And we have...

Federal Register Notices

[Federal Register: September 29, 2009 (Volume 74, Number 187)]
[Notices]
[Page 49848]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr29se09-29]

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Office of the Secretary

Determination of Total Amounts of Fiscal Year 2010 Tariff-Rate
Quotas for Raw Cane Sugar and Certain Sugars, Syrups and Molasses

Page 49848. Damn, that's a big book.

145 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:03:03pm

Senate Health Bill Totals $849 Billion

*snip*

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid released the bill and its price tag to his colleagues Wednesday afternoon. He has spent weeks merging two versions of the bill that passed out of two separate Senate committees.

Reid plans to hold a procedural vote as early as Thursday to begin debate on Saturday.

*snip*

When it comes time to reconcile the House and Senate versions, sparks are going to fly.

146 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:03:24pm

re: #138 Racer X

Good question.

147 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:04:30pm

re: #142 Obdicut

This is something that I never understood. How can American businesses be competive with other countries when they're on the hook for their employees' health cover? (And, in the case of those with employer based retirement packages, also the the health needs of past employees, if I'm not mistaken.)

148 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:04:44pm

re: #138 Racer X

I wonder what is causing costs to go up? Who is getting filthy rich off us?

That's at least 100 possible LGF threads right there! :-D

149 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:06:03pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Here is an excellent article by Atul Gawande that addresses part, but only part, of that question:

Link

Sum it up for me please?

150 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:06:11pm

re: #145 Bubblehead II

Senate Health Bill Totals $849 Billion

*snip*

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid released the bill and its price tag to his colleagues Wednesday afternoon. He has spent weeks merging two versions of the bill that passed out of two separate Senate committees.

Reid plans to hold a procedural vote as early as Thursday to begin debate on Saturday.

*snip*

When it comes time to reconcile the House and Senate versions, sparks are going to fly.

Will I get jail time and a fine for not getting gubment health care in Reid's bill?

151 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:06:22pm

re: #142 Obdicut

I'm really angry at the Democrats for not positing this debate more in the line of helping small businesses. It was the obvious way to sell this, a perfectly honest and good way to explain it.

They bungled the hell out of it.

Frankly, how did they try and sell it anyway? My brain hurts trying to remember...

152 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:07:22pm

re: #145 Bubblehead II

Reid plans to hold a procedural vote as early as Thursday to begin debate on Saturday.

The thought had crossed my mind that the recent hike in my insurance is because the insurance companies are milking the remaining days of free reign.

153 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:07:23pm

re: #147 Kruk

This is something that I never understood. How can American businesses be competive with other countries when they're on the hook for their employees' health cover? (And, in the case of those with employer based retirement packages, also the the health needs of past employees, if I'm not mistaken.)

We're becoming less and less competitive. It's one of the main reasons for outsourcing.

It is no longer possible to run a smallish business where you have lots of employees with full benefits. The number of employees is now the largest constraint on many business models. Health insurance prices are directly losing us jobs.

Thankfully, the US still leads the world in value-added-per-worker-hour, thanks to our education (which Texas is busy trying to finish destroying) work ethic, and freedom of exchange of ideas.

But it is hurting us, badly.

154 OneMonkeysUncle  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:07:38pm

I cannot comprehend this, anymore than I can comprehend Creationaryists. I just don't have the kind of mind that can be so reduced and disabled as to actually conflate fairy tales with reality. I was going to say, please, can somebody explain because I really want to understand them... but, you know what? I don't.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:08:02pm

re: #151 Surabaya Stew

Frankly, how did they try and sell it anyway? My brain hurts trying to remember...

I remember "We'll sit down with the insurance companies and talk" and then my brain imploded at the insanity of it.

156 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:08:16pm

I mean, seriously, if private industry cannot do health care at a decent price, what makes us so sure the government can?

Yes, health care is effed up. What to do. What to do?

157 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:09:06pm

re: #138 Racer X

I wonder what is causing costs to go up? Who is getting filthy rich off us?

Health insurance companies have a profit margin of about 6%.

In the health care debate, Democrats and their allies have gone after insurance companies as rapacious profiteers making "immoral" and "obscene" returns while "the bodies pile up."
Ledgers tell a different reality. Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.
Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure. This partly explains why the credit ratings of some of the largest insurers were downgraded to negative from stable heading into this year, as investors were warned of a stagnant if not shrinking market for private plans.

Costs are going up becuase:
1. The population is aging, and
2. There are more and better diagnostic and screening tools avaiable to doctors, and these cost money.

I went today for my annual exam. Years ago, it was a quick check with a stethoscope, weight, and a blood pressure check. Today I had a bone density scan, a mammogram, several other screening tests, in addition to blood pressure, weight and stethoscope.

158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:10:28pm

KT? What if we call your tax increase an insurance premium?

159 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:10:45pm

re: #147 Kruk

This is something that I never understood. How can American businesses be competive with other countries when they're on the hook for their employees' health cover? (And, in the case of those with employer based retirement packages, also the the health needs of past employees, if I'm not mistaken.)

The excuse has been for a long time that an employer sponsored health plan was 100% tax deductible, leading to lower costs for everyone. You are correct in pointing out that the cost of health insurance makes it very difficult for American employers to remain competitive; the plans that cover retirees are even worse to deal with. Detriot didn't go broke just because of healthcare costs, but without that mess to deal with, they may have avoided it!

160 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #150 Cannadian Club Akbar

Will I get jail time and a fine for not getting gubment health care in Reid's bill?

Only if you refuse to pay the fine, which will be part of your taxes at the end of the year and if you get a money back will probably just be taken out of that, after years of the IRS trying to make deals with you and payment plans and on and on...THEN you might do jail time.
Maybe...

161 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:11:23pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

The thought had crossed my mind that the recent hike in my insurance is because the insurance companies are milking the remaining days of free reign.

My opinion? They're taking advantage of the fear of the alleged impending end of their free reign. There will be regulatory modifications that will force them to change how they run their policies -- if it passes the senate of course. I'm speaking fiscally now. The costs will continue to rise even after 2013. I just don't see any legislation as being a panacea for lower insurance premiums.

162 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:11:41pm

I have a friend sitting in a hospital bed right now - one misdiagnosis after another. Been dicking him around for weeks. They finally diagnosed his illness - after scaring the crap out of him with several dire (fatal) predictions. He'll survive with treatment. Kaiser.

I cannot fathom government run health care will be better than that.

163 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:12:04pm

re: #149 Racer X

Sum it up for me please?

He compares two towns in Texas, operating under the same regulatory environment, the same completely-restricted tort laws (as in, tort reform has already passed in Texas, capping settlements, removing the 'defensive medicine' argument), and very similar patient populations.

The medical spending in one area is more than twice than that in the other.

The largest explanation he found was that tests he, personally, considered not necessary or, sometimes, even diagnostically useful were being absolutely routinely performed in one town, and not to the other.

He soberly, as a doctor himself, raises the responsibility of doctors to control costs, and points to the fee-for-service model of physician compensation as a reasonable place to look for useful change. He explores the theme more deeply in his book Better.

And again: My summaries will always be inadequate, I encourage you to read the article when you have time. He's very readable.

164 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:12:07pm

re: #150 Cannadian Club Akbar

Haven't seen it yet, so can't truthfully answer that.

165 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:12:30pm

re: #160 webevintage

Only if you refuse to pay the fine, which will be part of your taxes at the end of the year and if you get a money back will probably just be taken out of that, after years of the IRS trying to make deals with you and payment plans and on and on...THEN you might do jail time.
Maybe...

What if I have no job? Unemployment in my Florida county is 12.4%

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:13:12pm

My wife's contribution just doubled, while other available coverages had a reduction in premiums. We kept the one we had and let it double.

With the reduced premium policies, our out of pocket last year would have been over 15K instead of 2K.

So, we just had an annual increase of 2600.00, but, I'd rather pay out 2,600 than 15K.

Math was pretty easy on that one.

Even though they told me there would be no math.

167 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:13:16pm

re: #156 Racer X

I mean, seriously, if private industry cannot do health care at a decent price, what makes us so sure the government can?

Yes, health care is effed up. What to do. What to do?

When my brain stops hurting, I'll get back to you. Be prepared to wait...
:-D

168 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:13:34pm

re: #162 Racer X

I have a friend sitting in a hospital bed right now - one misdiagnosis after another. Been dicking him around for weeks. They finally diagnosed his illness - after scaring the crap out of him with several dire (fatal) predictions. He'll survive with treatment. Kaiser.

I cannot fathom government run health care will be better than that.

Why do you bring up government run health care, when the bill changes only the method of payment? We're not moving to a NHS system under this bill.

Also, personal incredulity is not, actually, much of an argument.

169 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:13:40pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Thank you.

170 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:14:02pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

My company is self insured, so there were a few minor changes in the plan and a small increase in premiums.

171 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:15:02pm

re: #168 Obdicut

Why do you bring up government run health care, when the bill changes only the method of payment? We're not moving to a NHS system under this bill.

Also, personal incredulity is not, actually, much of an argument.

Sorry - I perceive the government to take the place of large insurance companies. Not so?

172 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:15:17pm

re: #162 Racer X

Yes, I have Kaiser as well.

173 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:15:41pm

re: #165 Cannadian Club Akbar

What if I have no job? Unemployment in my Florida county is 12.4%

Then you will get a subsidy and have health insurance and access to health care which a lot of people who are out of a job do not have.
We really need an option that will move with you from job to job (or lack there of) and that the self employed can afford.

174 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:17:20pm

re: #142 Obdicut

I'm really angry at the Democrats for not positing this debate more in the line of helping small businesses. It was the obvious way to sell this, a perfectly honest and good way to explain it.

They bungled the hell out of it.

Maybe you could explain how this bill is a boon to small business owners because I'm not seeing that at all.

175 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:17:26pm

re: #173 webevintage

Then you will get a subsidy and have health insurance and access to health care which a lot of people who are out of a job do not have.
We really need an option that will move with you from job to job (or lack there of) and that the self employed can afford.

So, competition of sorts?

176 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:17:41pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

from your link...

Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th on the Fortune 500 list of top industries. As is typical, other health sectors did much better — drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10.


There's a clue.

177 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:17:54pm

re: #171 Racer X

Sorry - I perceive the government to take the place of large insurance companies. Not so?


I only wish that were more true under the current bill; it's more the US joining the insurance companies a very little more than it already is in the market.

However, what I"m pointing out is that you're conflating health care with health insurance. They're very, very different things.

For example, the UK has government run health care: doctors are employed directly by the state almost exclusively (a small number of private clinics).

We, of course, have lots of government-run health care already; if you go to UCSF hospital, for example, one of the best in the world, you're receiving government-run health care. Kaiser, where your friend suffered-- and who are right up the street from me in SF-- are private.

However, the bill as such doesn't change anything about the public/private ration of health care delivery we have now, just health insurance.

178 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:18:03pm

And another thing - all those damn Viagra and self diagnose / medicate ads on TV? I would abolish all of them. Seems to me it is raising costs for services that are not needed.

'Hello doc? I need this drug. TV told me so"

179 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:18:47pm

re: #162 Racer X

I have a friend sitting in a hospital bed right now - one misdiagnosis after another. Been dicking him around for weeks. They finally diagnosed his illness - after scaring the crap out of him with several dire (fatal) predictions. He'll survive with treatment. Kaiser.

I cannot fathom government run health care will be better than that.

I am very sorry for your friend and I hope he makes a full recovery. It must be incredibly painful and frustrating to deal with incompetence like that.

If government-run care means VA hospitals, then I agree that it will be a disaster. (Isn't Kaiser kinda run along similar lines anyway?) However, my understanding is that only the "paying for it" part is to be government run. The part of them running that doesn't scare me, what does scare me is the thought that it may not turn out any better than the private sector at controlling costs.

180 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:19:28pm

re: #178 Racer X

'Hello doc? I need this drug. TV told me so"


That's how I got my Sham-Wow. :(

181 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:20:07pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

Costs are going up becuase:
1. The population is aging, and
2. There are more and better diagnostic and screening tools avaiable to doctors, and these cost money.

I went today for my annual exam. Years ago, it was a quick check with a stethoscope, weight, and a blood pressure check. Today I had a bone density scan, a mammogram, several other screening tests, in addition to blood pressure, weight and stethoscope.

Another reason for rising costs: those costs are completely invisible to the majority of both patients and doctors. If your doctor prescribes, for example, an MRI or a cholesterol-lowering drug, he likely has no idea what those tests and prescriptions actually cost either you or the insurance company paying most of the bill. Likewise, you likely have no idea what either cost, apart from what your deductible and copayments will be, and those typically represent only a tiny fraction of the total bill.

In other words, insurance completely distorts the marketplace by hiding the largest possible signal of value: the actual cost.

Prescription copays, in fact, were introduced in an attempt to expose consumers to at least some of the cost. Two statins, for example, might differ widely in price - one might cost $50 for a month's supply, while another with near-identical action might run $600. Insurance companies would require no copay if you opted for the cheaper (probably generic) drug, but might hit you with a $25 or $50 copay for the more expensive, name-brand variant.

The result, originally, was stupendous - something like half of all prescription drugs shifted from name-brand to generic when copays were first introduced.

The pharmaceutical companies, as you might imagine, have fought back. Now, you'll find coupons for their name-brand medications - the ones that cost the insurance companies $600 to fill, and cost the patient a $50 copay - available everywhere, from doctor's offices to health magazines, and they are typically in the amount of...the average copayment. Making the cost once again invisible to consumers in any way.

Obviously, exposing consumers even to token representations of the actual cost of drugs - and presumably procedures - has a positive influence on controlling those costs. The trick seems to be to apply such solutions to a wider variety of medical stuff, while fighting back against attempts by various interests to mask those token costs.

How to make doctors aware of the costs - and get them to care - is another matter altogether, and I'm not aware of anything that's been tried in that area.

182 KingKenrod  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:20:10pm

re: #163 Obdicut

He compares two towns in Texas, operating under the same regulatory environment, the same completely-restricted tort laws (as in, tort reform has already passed in Texas, capping settlements, removing the 'defensive medicine' argument), and very similar patient populations.

The medical spending in one area is more than twice than that in the other.

The largest explanation he found was that tests he, personally, considered not necessary or, sometimes, even diagnostically useful were being absolutely routinely performed in one town, and not to the other.

He soberly, as a doctor himself, raises the responsibility of doctors to control costs, and points to the fee-for-service model of physician compensation as a reasonable place to look for useful change. He explores the theme more deeply in his book Better.

And again: My summaries will always be inadequate, I encourage you to read the article when you have time. He's very readable.

Well, that's a tough problem to solve.

Do we want insurance companies refusing to pay for tests and procedures they deem unnecessary? Everyone complains about that now.

Do we want patients paying for the expenses themselves out-of-pocket? Everyone complains about that, and many people can't pay anyway.

Do we want govt telling doctors what tests they can perform? Everyone complains about that now (look at the gripes this week about the new mammography guidelines).

183 Kragar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:20:11pm

re: #180 Cannadian Club Akbar

That's how I got my Sham-Wow. :(

Now explain the Snuggie.

184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #178 Racer X

Jay Mohr joke...

"I saw this drug commercial on TV, said to ask my doctor about it. Had to go to the doctor and said, 'Oh yeah, I was supposed to ask you about (whatever the drug name was). Doctor said, 'You have anal warts?'"

185 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:20:48pm

re: #174 RogueOne

Maybe you could explain how this bill is a boon to small business owners because I'm not seeing that at all.

This bill is not nearly as much of a boon as single-payer would be. It is a very flawed compromise that, at most, is the beginning of change.

But in removing the restrictions on pre-existing conditions and pricing, the bill at least allows a small business owner to not have to worry about the prospective health of his employees.

In addition, a portion of the house bill contains a maximum profit-from-plan restriction, whereby if a certain plan is netting the insurance company above a certain rate of return, they need to return that amount to those insured under the plan.

186 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:21:53pm

re: #183 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now explain the Snuggie.

I like those but live in Florida. No need for one.

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:22:12pm

Under national health care, doctors will make agreements based on who gets to use the machine that goes, "BING!"

188 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:22:23pm

re: #182 KingKenrod

Well, that's a tough problem to solve.

It is indeed, and I'd like to finish my pimping of Atul Gawande by linking to this article, which is exactly about the problem of transition:

Getting There From Here

189 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:22:31pm

re: #178 Racer X

And another thing - all those damn Viagra and self diagnose / medicate ads on TV? I would abolish all of them. Seems to me it is raising costs for services that are not needed.

'Hello doc? I need this drug. TV told me so"

Interesting idea but I think there's a better way to deal with it. A few years ago the Indian government cut a deal with the company that makes viagra. They could have a monopoly on viagra in India, charge whatever they want with no competition from generics. In return the company had to lower its prices on necessary medicines for malaria, etc. It seems like a nice way to deal with it.

190 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:22:44pm

California bans power-hungry TVs

[whistling]

My computer has a 550 watt PSU and my AC is 1500 watts.

191 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #181 SixDegrees

Another reason for rising costs: those costs are completely invisible to the majority of both patients and doctors. If your doctor prescribes, for example, an MRI or a cholesterol-lowering drug, he likely has no idea what those tests and prescriptions actually cost either you or the insurance company paying most of the bill. Likewise, you likely have no idea what either cost, apart from what your deductible and copayments will be, and those typically represent only a tiny fraction of the total bill.

In other words, insurance completely distorts the marketplace by hiding the largest possible signal of value: the actual cost.

Prescription copays, in fact, were introduced in an attempt to expose consumers to at least some of the cost. Two statins, for example, might differ widely in price - one might cost $50 for a month's supply, while another with near-identical action might run $600. Insurance companies would require no copay if you opted for the cheaper (probably generic) drug, but might hit you with a $25 or $50 copay for the more expensive, name-brand variant.

The result, originally, was stupendous - something like half of all prescription drugs shifted from name-brand to generic when copays were first introduced.

The pharmaceutical companies, as you might imagine, have fought back. Now, you'll find coupons for their name-brand medications - the ones that cost the insurance companies $600 to fill, and cost the patient a $50 copay - available everywhere, from doctor's offices to health magazines, and they are typically in the amount of...the average copayment. Making the cost once again invisible to consumers in any way.

Obviously, exposing consumers even to token representations of the actual cost of drugs - and presumably procedures - has a positive influence on controlling those costs. The trick seems to be to apply such solutions to a wider variety of medical stuff, while fighting back against attempts by various interests to mask those token costs.

How to make doctors aware of the costs - and get them to care - is another matter altogether, and I'm not aware of anything that's been tried in that area.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

192 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:23:23pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

from your link...


There's a clue.

yep.

193 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:23:37pm

re: #181 SixDegrees

I'm also for a near-total ban on pharmaceutical advertising. I'm a huge freedom of speech advocate, but dear god, the cost to the public is astonishing.

194 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:24:33pm

re: #128 Surabaya Stew


However, my firm before that had an employee that came down with cancer, so they didn't change insurance providers for years until they let the employee go recently; after which they got a new provider! I pray that these 2 facts are unrelated, but my gut tells me otherwise...

Do you mean the let the guy go *in order* to get new cover? Yikes. Lose your job, lose your coverage in case you get sick. Get sick, and lose your job... sorry, guys. There are many things I love about America. Your health system isn't one of them.

Re: RacerX I'm sorry to hear about your friend, and I hope he gets better. It seems to me, though, that the problems you mentioned were in the provision of health care (at the level of the doctor and hospital) rather than in the funding of it.

195 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:24:54pm

re: #171 Racer X

Sorry - I perceive the government to take the place of large insurance companies. Not so?

Not so.

If there's a public option at all it will only cover 3-4% of the population. The rest will still be covered by private insurance. Nobody has proposed government run health care for the majority. That's just false.

196 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:25:03pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

The thought had crossed my mind that the recent hike in my insurance is because the insurance companies are milking the remaining days of free reign.

Not so much, but close. They're doing the same thing the credit card companies are doing in anticipation of the looming change in rules - they're establishing precedent, so when the new rules kick in they'll have established a higher baseline from which to charge, negotiate or whatever avenue they may take. Every plan currently under consideration retains private insurance, at least in theory; they aren't going to go away, and the premiums they charge are going to remain much the same. Regulation may seek to freeze them, but actually cutting rates would be political suicide. By raising rates now, they're ensuring that any future locks or restraints on increases will at least retain the rates already in existence.

197 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:26:17pm

re: #196 SixDegrees


Not so much, but close. They're doing the same thing the credit card companies are doing in anticipation of the looming change in rules - they're establishing precedent, so when the new rules kick in they'll have established a higher baseline from which to charge, negotiate or whatever avenue they may take.


Ah, that makes sense.

198 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:27:43pm

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

199 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:28:56pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

But, can you fit that on 2000 pages?
/

200 Kragar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:29:11pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

IN BED.

201 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:29:13pm

re: #178 Racer X

And another thing - all those damn Viagra and self diagnose / medicate ads on TV? I would abolish all of them. Seems to me it is raising costs for services that are not needed.

'Hello doc? I need this drug. TV told me so"

Phama spends more on marketing than they do on new drug development. Cutting that shit out would cut costs tremendously. Note marketing includes the conferences in resorts for MDs and all the stuff drug reps do in addition to media buys.

202 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:29:42pm

re: #178 Racer X

And another thing - all those damn Viagra and self diagnose / medicate ads on TV? I would abolish all of them. Seems to me it is raising costs for services that are not needed.

'Hello doc? I need this drug. TV told me so"

Drug companies talk a lot about the cost of research, but I wonder how much the cost of advertising is in relation to research.

I take a few scripts and all of them are generic except for one.
It sucks because my Dr tried all the generic alternatives and none worked as well and some made me so ill I lost weight because I could not eat.
Luckily I only have to wait 2 more years and there will be a generic.

203 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:29:55pm

re: #194 Kruk

RacerX I'm sorry to hear about your friend, and I hope he gets better. It seems to me, though, that the problems you mentioned were in the provision of health care (at the level of the doctor and hospital) rather than in the funding of it.

Correct. But is it possible the person who pays the bill (insurance co) limits the tests that are run - therefore causing the misdiagnosis? I know - just one example.

204 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:30:45pm

re: #201 Conservative Moonbat

Phama spends more on marketing than they do on new drug development. Cutting that shit out would cut costs tremendously. Note marketing includes the conferences in resorts for MDs and all the stuff drug reps do in addition to media buys.

I would be thrilled to death if I never had to sit through a Viagra or Cialis ad again.

205 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:31:16pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

Don't forget taxing soda pop.
I hate pop. It is killing us and I hate that woman on the ad who claims her kids will starve if she has to pay 2 cents more for COKE.
Put the money into paying the premiums for people who need subsidies.

206 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:31:29pm

re: #198 Racer X

I still think that healthcare costs will not go down until consumers have an incentive to make them go down.

Today I was offered a $4 generic or $5 name brand on my insurance plan. Guess which one I chose?

Until we have a reason to make the costs go down, and a way of knowing how to do that, we'll be spreading the same costs around to the same people in form of a tax or a premium.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:31:44pm

I'm guessing that a bunch of old ladies are really pissed about the accidental invention of Viagra. I'm sure many wouldn't mind if the couldn't get insurance coverage for it.

I'm guessing a bunch are happy too, but I'm guessing more are not.

208 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:31:51pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

And:

5. Vastly increase the number of nurse practitioners/physicians assistants and their scope of authorization
6. Move at least the primary care doctors off the fee-for-service model of payment.
7. Stop using 'heroic measures' that violate the dignity and independence of individuals. (Oh noes, death panels.)

209 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:31:54pm

re: #204 reine.de.tout

I would be thrilled to death if I never had to sit through a Viagra or Cialis ad again.

My 9 year old asked me 'dad, what does viagra do?'

Ask your mother.

210 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:32:05pm

re: #202 webevintage

Drug companies talk a lot about the cost of research, but I wonder how much the cost of advertising is in relation to research.

I take a few scripts and all of them are generic except for one.
It sucks because my Dr tried all the generic alternatives and none worked as well and some made me so ill I lost weight because I could not eat.
Luckily I only have to wait 2 more years and there will be a generic.

I'm on a couple generics that are still over $100 a month w/o insurance.

211 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:32:38pm

re: #193 Obdicut

I'm also for a near-total ban on pharmaceutical advertising. I'm a huge freedom of speech advocate, but dear god, the cost to the public is astonishing.

I don't have a problem with it. Companies are free to promote their products - after all, the name brand drugs really are different from the generics, and even if they weren't it isn't at all unusual for companies to thrive simply by setting their product apart from others based on ephemera. There are companies that sell water, in bottles, to people, in a country with a continent-wide system of publicly available drinking water. And who charge high prices doing so.

The key is to expose consumers, in some way, to the actual costs, even if the exposure is token. It just needs to be large enough to be noticeable and people will pay attention to it. They will also pay attention to advertising, and to independent reviews and other sources of information as they attempt to sort out which drug or procedure is going to deliver the amount of bang for their buck they are willing to part with.

Letting companies participate in this process is part of that process. People are quite aware that most commercials feature turds with a cherry on top to begin with. It's the manipulation of market when the market itself is terrifically distorted by price hiding that causes the uncontrolled runup in costs.

212 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:32:47pm

re: #205 webevintage

Don't forget taxing soda pop.
I hate pop. It is killing us and I hate that woman on the ad who claims her kids will starve if she has to pay 2 cents more for COKE.
Put the money into paying the premiums for people who need subsidies.

I strongly disagree with you there. but another day.

213 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:32:50pm

re: #194 Kruk

Do you mean the let the guy go *in order* to get new cover? Yikes. Lose your job, lose your coverage in case you get sick. Get sick, and lose your job... sorry, guys. There are many things I love about America. Your health system isn't one of them.

In fairness to my former employer, that can't be proved; yet it certainly looks that way from the available evidence. (Of course, its not new coverage that's important here, it's less expensive coverage that was desired.) You are correcting in observing that of all our ways and culture that we are proud to export to the world, health care coverage ain't one of them! (Health care medicines and techniques are of course another story!)

214 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:33:10pm

re: #203 Racer X

Correct. But is it possible the person who pays the bill (insurance co) limits the tests that are run - therefore causing the misdiagnosis? I know - just one example.

Yes. Kaiser is especially notorious for this.

A friend of mine was in rotation (as a doctor, rotating through a few different hospitals to gain experience). He summed up Kaiser as, "Great for me, they barely had me do anything. Not so good for the patients, who really did need me to do things."

Kaiser is unusual in that it is it's own insurance company, though; Kaiser is the hospital and the insurance company at once.

215 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:33:25pm

re: #210 Conservative Moonbat

I'm on a couple generics that are still over $100 a month w/o insurance.

Are they not on the $4 list at WalMart?
That sucks.

216 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:34:15pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

My head feels better already...seriously, this is a good start.

217 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:34:42pm

re: #211 SixDegrees

Updinged not because I agree with you-- I don't-- but because of the cogentness of your explanation of your position. Thank you.

218 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:34:47pm

re: #212 Racer X

I strongly disagree with you there. but another day.

When I was in Italy back in 2005 a 10oz can of coke cost either 6€ or the equivalent of $6, the taxes were insane.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:35:13pm

re: #210 Conservative Moonbat

My wife is a diabetic. With insurance our monthly cost is 100.00, because you need 5 different maintenance scripts for it.

Insulin regular CHING!
Insulin NPH, CHING
Syringes, CHING!
Lancets, CHING
Test Strips, CHING!

I can't imagine what the poor folks do, but Insulin is still a Lily product and no generic is available.

Go figure.

220 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:35:56pm

re: #218 Pepper Fox

When I was in Italy back in 2005 a 10oz can of coke cost either 6€ or the equivalent of $6, the taxes were insane.

Was that for imported coke, or also for the locally made fizzy drinks?

221 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:36:20pm

re: #189 Killgore Trout

Interesting idea but I think there's a better way to deal with it. A few years ago the Indian government cut a deal with the company that makes viagra. They could have a monopoly on viagra in India, charge whatever they want with no competition from generics. In return the company had to lower its prices on necessary medicines for malaria, etc. It seems like a nice way to deal with it.

New Zealand's PHARMAC (which manages the prescription drug budget) does something very similar. A company will get the national contract to supply, say, statins, if they also give the government a good deal on another drug. It's called cross-bundling. PHARMAC also uses sole supply agreements (the company that offers the best deal on a certain type of medication will get the contract to supply subsidised medicines for the whole country.) Other tools are reference pricing (setting the subsidised price for a class of medicines at the cheapest price offered, forcing other companies to drop their prices if they want to compete), and uses generic medicines where possible. Taken together, they're very effective at controlling our drug budget.

222 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:37:12pm

re: #218 Pepper Fox

When I was in Italy back in 2005 a 10oz can of coke cost either 6€ or the equivalent of $6, the taxes were insane.

ouch.
the lady in the commerical?
Her kids might starve in Italy.

223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:37:37pm

re: #214 Obdicut

Ever wonder what the Medical Bills look like for Dr. House's patients?

224 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:37:45pm

re: #220 Surabaya Stew

Was that for imported coke, or also for the locally made fizzy drinks?

It was local I believe, it was in Italian and about the size of a red bull can. But it didn't matter cause for the rest of the trip I practically lived on Orangina and street vendor panini during the day. Good stuff.

225 Killgore Trout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:38:17pm

Kudos to the Lizards! A real discussion of healthcare reform that consisted more of regurgitating talking points. I haven't seen a more rational or factual discussion of the topic. Very educational, thanks guys.

226 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:39:04pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Kudos to the Lizards! A real discussion of healthcare reform that consisted more of regurgitating talking points. I haven't seen a more rational or factual discussion of the topic. Very educational, thanks guys.

When ya want rational and factual, LGF is the place to be.

227 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:39:49pm

re: #226 reine.de.tout

When ya want rational and factual, LGF is the place to be.

Until the Beck threads come up.

228 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:40:19pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can you say bankruptcy?

229 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:41:01pm

re: #218 Pepper Fox

When I was in Italy back in 2005 a 10oz can of coke cost either 6€ or the equivalent of $6, the taxes were insane.

Thats crazy.

230 RogueOne  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:41:51pm

re: #185 Obdicut

I'm going to have to disagree and I'm not going to be able to stay around for the debate. Just wanted to tell you thanks for responding with an honest argument.

///it was an honest answer but still wrong. ;)

231 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:41:54pm

re: #227 soxfan4life

Until the Beck threads come up.

We need to make some kind of eponymous law about Beck or similar personality's behavior, and the reaction to it.

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:42:08pm

re: #228 Bubblehead II

Can you say bankruptcy?

24-7 care from the most highly trained specialist in the world who use a MRI's and tests just to throw something against the wall...

I'd like to see a patient say, WTF (why the face)?

233 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:43:00pm

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My wife is a diabetic. With insurance our monthly cost is 100.00, because you need 5 different maintenance scripts for it.

Insulin regular CHING!
Insulin NPH, CHING
Syringes, CHING!
Lancets, CHING
Test Strips, CHING!

I can't imagine what the poor folks do, but Insulin is still a Lily product and no generic is available.

Go figure.

You're correct that none of these products are considered generic, although there are alternative insulins available. I used to use Lilly, but switched to Novolog and Lantus several years ago, and there are a couple other manufacturers as well. But all their products are considered proprietary. Same with syringes and test strips, which are simply products that will never have anything like a "generic" equivalent.

If it makes you feel any better, you can ask the pharmacist to tell you the MSRP of those items. Believe me - your $100 a month is chicken feed compared to what you'd be charged without insurance.

For those without insurance or of limited means, fortunately, diabetic supplies are one of the categories of supplies that is covered by a variety of charities, county health departments and other organizations. It's a patchwork, but there's no reason anyone has to go without.

234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:43:05pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Kudos to the Lizards! A real discussion of healthcare reform that consisted more of regurgitating talking points. I haven't seen a more rational or factual discussion of the topic. Very educational, thanks guys.

DEATH PANELS!

235 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:43:14pm

re: #222 webevintage

ouch.
the lady in the commerical?
Her kids might starve in Italy.

That makes me think of the local news spot when a KFC or something ran out of chicken and people were driving up and telling the news crew "HOW WILL I FEED MY KIDS?!?"

236 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:43:50pm

re: #224 Pepper Fox

It was local I believe, it was in Italian and about the size of a red bull can. But it didn't matter cause for the rest of the trip I practically lived on Orangina and street vendor panini during the day. Good stuff.

Damn! I don't recall it being so much (about 2 dollars, perhaps), but then again I was there in 1995; your recent experience trumps mine. My subsidence for 4 days in Rome largely consisted of water from the fountains, bread from bakeries, and pizza from a joint near the train station. Not that I missed the soda, because I'm allergic to carbonation anyway, but it would have been nice to have at least one panini...

237 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:44:32pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Kudos to the Lizards! A real discussion of healthcare reform that consisted more of regurgitating talking points. I haven't seen a more rational or factual discussion of the topic. Very educational, thanks guys.

KSM!!!

238 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:45:23pm

re: #226 reine.de.tout

When ya want rational, and factual, and boob puns LGF is the place to be.

Tampered for ya.

239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:45:37pm

re: #233 SixDegrees

Thanks. I sat with my wife in the waiting room at her endocrinologist's office, and the people that I saw looked ill able to afford to properly be able to care for themselves properly.

Oh, and yeah. Most of them were way overweight. Wife has JD... very fit, but diabetes is a shitty disease.

240 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:45:45pm

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My wife is a diabetic. With insurance our monthly cost is 100.00, because you need 5 different maintenance scripts for it.

Insulin regular CHING!
Insulin NPH, CHING
Syringes, CHING!
Lancets, CHING
Test Strips, CHING!

I can't imagine what the poor folks do, but Insulin is still a Lily product and no generic is available.

Go figure.

Cripes. In New Zealand, your wife would pay $3 for a *three month* supply of each of those things. Once you reached 20 prescription items in an year per family (so four months assuming no-one else needed prescription items) you would get them free. In the UK, a diabetic would get all their prescriptions (not just those related to diabetes) free, unless somethings changed since I worked there a couple of years ago

PS: I don't mean to come across a a zealot for government funded systems. I know we have our problems, including access to newer drugs and waiting lists for surgery. My career after graduation will (hopefully) be based on solving those problems. :) In a lot of ways, though, I do believe goverment funded systems can do things better.

241 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:46:29pm

re: #223 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ever wonder what the Medical Bills look like for Dr. House's patients?

Heh. In the season where Scary Black CEO Man takes over the hospital, that's gone into at some length.

But his value is beyond the care he delivers. He is training others, too.

242 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:46:41pm

re: #235 Pepper Fox

That makes me think of the local news spot when a KFC or something ran out of chicken and people were driving up and telling the news crew "HOW WILL I FEED MY KIDS?!?"

Yikes. I'm no health nut and I love fried chicken. But I had a piece of KFC a couple of months ago and the thing was greasier and oilier then anything I ever had. It wasn't even chicken fat it was some kind of oil they use to fry it.

243 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:46:53pm

re: #236 Surabaya Stew

Damn! I don't recall it being so much (about 2 dollars, perhaps), but then again I was there in 1995; your recent experience trumps mine. My subsidence for 4 days in Rome largely consisted of water from the fountains, bread from bakeries, and pizza from a joint near the train station. Not that I missed the soda, because I'm allergic to carbonation anyway, but it would have been nice to have at least one panini...

This was also a time when you might want to slap a Canadian flag on your bag and the Dollar was crushed under the Euro, I think the euro was worth 50% more at the time.

Have you tried Orangina? It's carbonated but so lightly you can shake it up real good to get that pulp mixed up but it won't fizzle over when you open it.

244 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:47:38pm

re: #240 Kruk

Yes...but FBV would pay increased taxes to pay the subsidies on those taxes.

Government money does not come out of the sky.

245 reine.de.tout  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:47:38pm

re: #238 Decatur Deb

Tampered for ya.

Well, you left out those threads where Killgore talks about pulling noodles.

246 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:47:39pm

re: #242 Gus 802

Speaking of healthcare reform... If I ate a piece of KFC today, I'd be in the hospital for a week.

247 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:47:40pm

re: #239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks. I sat with my wife in the waiting room at her endocrinologist's office, and the people that I saw looked ill able to afford to properly be able to care for themselves properly.

Oh, and yeah. Most of them were way overweight. Wife has JD... very fit, but diabetes is a shitty disease.

The incidence of type II diabetes is expected to rise something like 200% in the next few decades.


re: #233 SixDegrees


Many do go without, because it is a patchwork. Or they've never even been diagnosed.

248 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:48:19pm

re: #224 Pepper Fox

re: #236 Surabaya Stew

You people were in ITALY. Why the hell were you drinking water and Coke?
The best wine I've ever tasted was 80 cents a litre.

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:48:22pm

re: #244 EmmmieG

Yes...but FBV would pay increased taxes to pay the subsidies on those taxes.

Government money does not come out of the sky.

I plan on calling my increased taxes PREMIUMS.

250 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:48:29pm

re: #242 Gus 802

Yikes. I'm no health nut and I love fried chicken. But I had a piece of KFC a couple of months ago and the thing was greasier and oilier then anything I ever had. It wasn't even chicken fat it was some kind of oil they use to fry it.

I have only had large chain chicken when I didn't pay for it, I usually go to local chains like here in Texas we have Chicken Express in DFW and Bush's in Central Texas.

251 lostlakehiker  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:48:46pm

Maher isn't being stupid. He's taking advantage of other people's limitations. It's shameful. It's sinful.

He leads them into error, and an error that could well cost them their lives. For what? Because you can't get in the spotlight by saying that rain comes from clouds, that things fall down, and that vaccines work very well against smallpox and polio, and fairly well against influenza---all with risks that are real but far less of a danger than the risk of going unvaccinated and contracting one of those infectious diseases.

I'm old enough to have seen some of the most fortunate polio victims growing up alongside me in school. The ones with a leg that was withered and short, for instance. The less fortunate were invisible to the child I was then. Now adult, I know why I never saw them. They were dead, or crippled to the point they couldn't attend mainstream schools. And they were not some tiny few. They were numerous enough to fill hospitals and sprinkle cemeteries with headstones where the DOB and DOD were less than a decade apart.

The wages of folly are death. Maher is happy to trade the lives of those who listen to him and trust him for his ratings. This is thirty pieces of silver territory. Shame, shame!

252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #250 Pepper Fox

I have only had large chain chicken when I didn't pay for it, I usually go to local chains like here in Texas we have Chicken Express in DFW and Bush's in Central Texas.

Does Bush's Chicken have a hot barbecue sauce called NU-CU-LAR?

253 Gus  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:49:59pm

re: #250 Pepper Fox

I have only had large chain chicken when I didn't pay for it, I usually go to local chains like here in Texas we have Chicken Express in DFW and Bush's in Central Texas.

Yeah. I would get the chicken at Safeway. Either that or get a whole roasted chicken.

254 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:49:59pm

re: #251 lostlakehiker

Maher isn't being stupid. He's taking advantage of other people's limitations. It's shameful. It's sinful.

He leads them into error, and an error that could well cost them their lives. For what? Because you can't get in the spotlight by saying that rain comes from clouds, that things fall down, and that vaccines work very well against smallpox and polio, and fairly well against influenza---all with risks that are real but far less of a danger than the risk of going unvaccinated and contracting one of those infectious diseases.

I'm old enough to have seen some of the most fortunate polio victims growing up alongside me in school. The ones with a leg that was withered and short, for instance. The less fortunate were invisible to the child I was then. Now adult, I know why I never saw them. They were dead, or crippled to the point they couldn't attend mainstream schools. And they were not some tiny few. They were numerous enough to fill hospitals and sprinkle cemeteries with headstones where the DOB and DOD were less than a decade apart.

The wages of folly are death. Maher is happy to trade the lives of those who listen to him and trust him for his ratings. This is thirty pieces of silver territory. Shame, shame!

Same philosophy with Republicans opposing everything Obama is for so they can get more points for their team party

255 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:50:18pm

re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Bush's Chicken have a hot barbecue sauce called NU-CU-LAR?

No, but their tender rolls are pretty good.

256 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:50:24pm

re: #244 EmmmieG

I meant taxes to pay for the subsidies.

And if the government restricts what the companies can charge, they will not continue to provide the same services at a loss.

Oregon just saw a jump in insurance premiums (surprise). They also just last year instituted a program to insure all kids. How did they pay for it? They're taxing the insurance company. Can you connect the dots here?

257 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:50:57pm

re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does Bush's Chicken have a hot barbecue sauce called NU-CU-LAR?

Nah but they have a seasoned salt called "serenity" that's really good.

258 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:51:14pm

re: #239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks. I sat with my wife in the waiting room at her endocrinologist's office, and the people that I saw looked ill able to afford to properly be able to care for themselves properly.

Oh, and yeah. Most of them were way overweight. Wife has JD... very fit, but diabetes is a shitty disease.

I'm also Type I - which has nothing to do with weight, but seems to be an autoimmune disease.

And yes, it totally sucks.

The good news is that a lot of recent studies pretty much prove that keeping your blood sugar under very tight control - A1C results under 7.0 - reduces the chance of long-term complications pretty much to zero. And even if you don't pull that off, a single digit reduction brings a 40% reduction in complications. With the availability of personal blood testing, all the unpleasant side effects of the disease can be greatly minimized or even eliminated.

What they need to do next, in my opinion, is develop a continuous monitoring system of some kind, something I can wear like a wristwatch and consult at a glance whenever I feel like it instead of finding out at lunchtime that I've been riding high on sugar since breakfast. Once that arrives, you'll see a quantum improvement in outcomes, even over what's attainable with test strips.

259 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:51:22pm

Good afternoon Lizards, Honco's and juices

260 Pepper Fox  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:51:46pm

re: #255 soxfan4life

No, but their tender rolls are pretty good.

I get the student deal, $5 even gets you 3 tenders, a rolls, fries, gravy, and a large drink. no tax.

261 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:51:47pm

re: #243 Pepper Fox

This was also a time when you might want to slap a Canadian flag on your bag and the Dollar was crushed under the Euro, I think the euro was worth 50% more at the time.

Have you tried Orangina? It's carbonated but so lightly you can shake it up real good to get that pulp mixed up but it won't fizzle over when you open it.

Yeah, this was in Lira days; yet prices seemed really high for a number of basic items. Had virtually no extra cash; arrived home with not a penny to my name! My first European vacation has turned out to be my last so far.

Haven't tried Orangina yet; will have to do so as per your advice. :-)

262 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:52:32pm

re: #232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd like to see this happening more in real life. Once patients star asking why these test are being ordered, the sooner the unnecessary testing will end.

As I stated up thread, my company is self insured. It requires a 48 hour notice before a non emergency MRI/CAT/PET scan can be done (on their dime). They want to know why it has been ordered, so they aren't paying for a test that is basically useless for treating what is wrong.

/// GASP! My company has a DEATH PANEL!

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:52:46pm

re: #255 soxfan4life

(that was damn funny, I tells ya!)

264 Kruk  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:53:02pm

re: #244 EmmmieG

Of course, but it seems to me he's already paying taxes (including some that go to other people's health care), his insurance premiums*, and an $100 co-payment. Americans as a whole pay far more for their healthcare (both per capita and as a portion of GDP) than people in other countries.

*which, if he's employed, includes an employer contribution that might otherwise go to his salary, and an a tax credit that his own taxes are subsidising.

265 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:53:17pm

re: #248 Decatur Deb

re: #236 Surabaya Stew

You people were in ITALY. Why the hell were you drinking water and Coke?
The best wine I've ever tasted was 80 cents a litre.

As a Guy raised in Napa Valley we look down upon your wine, spit and squirm our nose at the thought of Italian wine.. You are not worthy!
*wink*

266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:53:59pm

re: #265 HoosierHoops

UH OH! IT'S ON!

267 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:54:14pm

re: #254 Pepper Fox

Same philosophy with Republicans Democrats opposing everything Obama Bush was for so they can get more points for their team party


It works both ways. Politics sucks.

268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:54:24pm

re: #265 HoosierHoops

See Kobe's circus shot last night?

That son of a bitch...

269 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:55:05pm

re: #266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

UH OH! IT'S ON!

Just watched that South Park episode the other night during one of my bouts with insomnia.

270 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:55:20pm

re: #247 Obdicut

The incidence of type II diabetes is expected to rise something like 200% in the next few decades.

re: #233 SixDegrees

Many do go without, because it is a patchwork. Or they've never even been diagnosed.

Possible, I suppose, for Type II, which comes on gradually. I'm not familiar with it personally. Type I is also referred to as "sudden onset diabetes," and in most cases hits the patient like running into a brick wall at top speed does - find and dandy one day, sick as a dog and near coma (if not already in one) within just a few days. Diagnosis is certain in such cases, although sudden death is also a distinct possibility, though not for lack of health insurance so much as lack of warning about what's suddenly gone wrong with every system in your body.

271 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:55:22pm

re: #266 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

UH OH! IT'S ON!

Bring it.. I was raised with the finest most snobbish wine drinkers in the world..I know all the big words.. LOL

272 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:55:43pm

re: #264 Kruk

Of course, but it seems to me he's already paying taxes (including some that go to other people's health care), his insurance premiums*, and an $100 co-payment. Americans as a whole pay far more for their healthcare (both per capita and as a portion of GDP) than people in other countries.

*which, if he's employed, includes an employer contribution that might otherwise go to his salary, and an a tax credit that his own taxes are subsidising.

Not that I can prove it, but I have always suspected that if/when America goes to a governmental system, drug companies will have to choose between not doing as much research or raising costs to other countries. This already happens on a smaller scale here where we are all paying for the low government payments for medicare patients by means of cost-shifting.

273 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:56:11pm

re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See Kobe's circus shot last night?

That son of a bitch...

Dude is a witch!

274 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:57:15pm

re: #248 Decatur Deb

re: #236 Surabaya Stew

You people were in ITALY. Why the hell were you drinking water a arent nd Coke?
The best wine I've ever tasted was 80 cents a litre.

In (a weak) response, I was 19 at the time; and wasn't drinking yet. Also, there's no better way to experience architecture than to drink from it; the fountains (potable ones, especially) of Rome are well know throughout history as some of the most characteristic things about the grand old place. That, and I was nearly broke, so free trumped 80 cents a liter!

275 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:57:23pm

re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See Kobe's circus shot last night?

That son of a bitch...

I unfortunately have to put Kobe in the top ten players of all time.. I hate the Lakers..It breaks my heart

276 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:58:08pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

You and me both. Top 3. yeah. I said it.

277 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:59:32pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

Didn't get to tell you the other day. I watched the Colts game from kick off to the end and all I could picture was you dancing in your friends front yard. Awesome game.

278 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:59:35pm

re: #254 Pepper Fox

Same philosophy with Republicans opposing everything Obama is for so they can get more points for their team party


Each side does it, it just seems worse this time around, and that could be because Republicans are better at sticking to their message while Dems seem to be all over the place even when they are the majority.

I'm tired of not being sure if a pol is in opposition because they really think so and so legislation is bad OR if they are only doing it because they are worried they will piss of "the base" or the party money guys no matter which side of the asile they maybe on.

279 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:59:38pm

re: #276 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You and me both. Top 3. yeah. I said it.

2 seconds left in the game...Who are you going to pick to take the shot..and know he'll make it?
Kobe...
/Somebody shoot me..
*wink*

280 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:59:44pm

re: #272 EmmmieG

Not that I can prove it, but I have always suspected that if/when America goes to a governmental system, drug companies will have to choose between not doing as much research or raising costs to other countries. This already happens on a smaller scale here where we are all paying for the low government payments for medicare patients by means of cost-shifting.

Drug companies rely on the basic science research done at public institutions. They're already piggy-backing on tax dollars to make their profits.

Drug companies have a very, very important role to play in drug research, but they do almost no basic science (the really hard, groundbreaking stuff) research at all.

Five of the top eight pharmaceutical companies are in Europe, as well.

281 SixDegrees  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:00:04pm

re: #272 EmmmieG

Not that I can prove it, but I have always suspected that if/when America goes to a governmental system, drug companies will have to choose between not doing as much research or raising costs to other countries. This already happens on a smaller scale here where we are all paying for the low government payments for medicare patients by means of cost-shifting.

There was story on NPR just today stating that a particular brand and model of MRI machine sells for double the price in the US as it does in Japan - for exactly the same machine. When asked why they sold it for so much more in the States, the answer was simple and direct: because we can.

Again, those hidden costs. Expose me to even a fraction of the cost of an MRI scan and let me chose among competing providers, and I'll gravitate toward the cheapest if all else is equal. If it isn't equal, some quality function is in play, but at least I'm still able to make a rational decision about it.

282 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:00:31pm

re: #276 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You and me both. Top 3. yeah. I said it.


Not sure I can go with top 3. Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Jordan, and Magic most definitely ahead of him

283 webevintage  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:00:49pm

re: #273 Racer X

Dude is a witch!

does he weigh the same as a duck?

284 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:01:13pm

re: #270 SixDegrees

Well, type II is the most common in the US, and is a 'caused' disease, related to diet and (lack of) exercise. That's why it's going to continue to explode.

It's currently at an incidence rate of a terrifying 2.4%-- including only the diagnosed.

285 Digital Display  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:02:06pm

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

Didn't get to tell you the other day. I watched the Colts game from kick off to the end and all I could picture was you dancing in your friends front yard. Awesome game.

unbelievable! screaming, yelling, drinking and shouting..
Lucky nobody called the Cops

286 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:02:44pm

re: #265 HoosierHoops

As a Guy raised in Napa Valley we look down upon your wine, spit and squirm our nose at the thought of Italian wine.. You are not worthy!
*wink*

In fairness to Italian wines, their grape varieties are largely unknown outside the place, so people raised on American wine (mostly from French grape varieties) may find Vino unfamiliar at first. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed some great reds from Italy.

287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:02:49pm

re: #282 soxfan4life

Not sure I can go with top 3. Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Jordan, and Magic most definitely ahead of him

Guess we'll never know until they're able to the Jurassic Park thing with old athletes and then put the clones into a Thunder-dome type situation.

288 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:03:16pm

re: #274 Surabaya Stew

(snip) Also, there's no better way to experience Garibaldi's Revenge than to drink from it; the (snip)

289 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:03:20pm

re: #198 Racer X

See, I knew Lizards could solve this mess in one afternoon.

1. Increase competition
2. Offer exclusive territories in exchange for reduced prices on health-critical drugs
3. Pass on to the consumer increased costs for non-essential services and drugs.
4. Eliminate prescription drug ads.

Now, let us try KSM in The Court of LGF.

290 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:03:37pm

re: #289 MandyManners

Me first?

291 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:04:12pm

re: #285 HoosierHoops

unbelievable! screaming, yelling, drinking and shouting..
Lucky nobody called the Cops

What did I tell you last possession, can't really count the last 13 seconds as a possession. Thought the Pats were going to run away in the first half, but you can never count out a team with Peyton Manning at QB.

292 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:04:29pm

re: #289 MandyManners

Now, let us try KSM in The Court of LGF.

Guilty. Did ya bring the ammo? ( I don't condone killing, as per LGF rules)

293 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:04:56pm

re: #291 soxfan4life

I went to bed at the beginning of the third quarter.

GAH!

294 Racer X  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:05:14pm
295 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:05:15pm

re: #289 MandyManners

Now, let us try KSM in The Court of LGF.

Don't think you want to go there; did you check out the previous thread? Walter and Sham really beat me up!
:-D

296 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:05:40pm

re: #293 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I went to bed at the beginning of the third quarter.

GAH!

I kind of wish I had. Sleep did not come easy Sunday night.

297 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:06:09pm

re: #286 Surabaya Stew

When we wanted Soave, we drove to Soave. Valpolicello was a 20 minute drive. Truth is we lived in the only area with bad wine, though we couldn't say that to the neighbors. Still better to travel broke than not to travel.

298 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:06:16pm

"No. Tell 'em we're not doing Christmas dinner at a casino... Don't be an ass about it, but tell them why it's a fucking stupid idea."
Justin's Dad

299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:06:54pm

re: #296 soxfan4life

I kind of wish I had. Sleep did not come easy Sunday night.

I'm assuming you didn't watch the turd from Monday night?

300 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:08:32pm

re: #299 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm assuming you didn't watch the turd from Monday night?

No sure didn't. I'm sorry for any Browns fans out there, but until Mangini is gone things will continue to suck. Maybe even Raider like suck.

301 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:08:43pm

re: #288 Decatur Deb

Also, there's no better way to experience Garibaldi's Revenge than to drink from it.

Is this related to Montezuma's Revenge?

302 MandyManners  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:10:27pm

Left-over roasted chicken, home-grown purple-hull peas, corn cut off the cob, new taters cooked with green beans and ham hock and rosemary and home-made bread-and-butter pickles.

Later.

303 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:11:28pm

re: #301 Surabaya Stew

Same outcome, different accent.

304 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:12:15pm

re: #297 Decatur Deb

When we wanted Soave, we drove to Soave. Valpolicello was a 20 minute drive. Truth is we lived in the only area with bad wine, though we couldn't say that to the neighbors. Still better to travel broke than not to travel.

1. What bad fortune to be in such a predicament; I hope there was a designated driver after all that wine drinking!

2. Traveling broke is easier in an inexpensive country. It's partially why Indonesia won out over Italy in my travel itinerary...

305 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:13:35pm

re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Guess we'll never know until they're able to the Jurassic Park thing with old athletes and then put the clones into a Thunder-dome type situation.

Did you see the movie Waiting, "welcome to the thunderdome, bitch"

306 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:17:59pm

Oops! Back to work!

307 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:18:02pm

re: #304 Surabaya Stew

1. What bad fortune to be in such a predicament; I hope there was a designated driver after all that wine drinking!

2. Traveling broke is easier in an inexpensive country. It's partially why Indonesia won out over Italy in my travel itinerary...

One 9 AM two Carabinieri motorcycle cops stood beside me in a highway
bar, getting their cafe corretto (espresso w/ grappa).

I think Indonesia has slid a little in the tourist ratings, these days.

308 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:18:43pm

re: #280 Obdicut

re: #281 SixDegrees

Well, here's why the debate is so difficult. We aren't even sure we understand the causes of health care costs rising, although I strongly suspect the reasons are the same as they would be in any industry.

309 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:18:55pm

bbl

310 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:19:44pm

And now for a bit of light hearted news.

Driver lost on 600km shops trip

I really liked the last two sentences of the article.

311 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:19:59pm

re: #308 EmmmieG

re: #281 SixDegrees

Well, here's why the debate is so difficult. We aren't even sure we understand the causes of health care costs rising, although I strongly suspect the reasons are the same as they would be in any industry.

I'm absolutely certain that health care is very, very different from every other industry, given that it involves our very lives.

312 albusteve  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:20:56pm

re: #282 soxfan4life

Not sure I can go with top 3. Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Jordan, and Magic most definitely ahead of him

Dr J?...c'mon

313 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:23:41pm

re: #307 Decatur Deb

One 9 AM two Carabinieri motorcycle cops stood beside me in a highway
bar, getting their cafe corretto (espresso w/ grappa).

I think Indonesia has slid a little in the tourist ratings, these days.

Those Italians...always full of life! ;-)

On a purely selfish level, I'm not opposed to that slide; leaves more of the country for me! :-D

314 sngnsgt  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:26:17pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

That might be an early version of the same approach. There have been statistical links between autism and forms of epilepsy.

Pardon me for butting in, but having read the word Epilepsy, I had to read what it had to do with. I'm sitting in Sunrise Medical Center in NV waiting for a seizure to happen. I'm hooked up to a video EEG machine just waiting for a seizure so it can be recorded in real time on video and EEG. Maybe my Dr can figure out why I'm having these damn things and come up with a better treatment plan or a different med to help get them under control.

315 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:27:11pm

re: #314 sngnsgt

Good luck, man.

316 soxfan4life  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:28:18pm

re: #312 albusteve

Dr J?...c'mon

Being a Celtic fan at that time, I saw Dr J in a different light, but he was a great one too.

317 freetoken  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:28:31pm

Meanwhile, over in the Ukraine:

Ukraine Dead Increase to 344 - Sequences Released

The 344 dead represents an increase of 16 from yesterday's total, which is similar to recent daily increases. The steady climb in fatal cases highlights the importance of the release of sequences by Mill Hill a WHO regional center in London.

Included in the sequences from 10 isolates were four HA sequences with the receptor binding domain change, D225G, which was found in the one throat and three lung samples. The change was not found in isolates from nasopharyngeal washes, suggesting D225G may lead to high concentrations of H1N1 in patient's lungs. The high concentration of virus leads to a cytokine storm that destroys the lungs in a few days.

318 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:30:53pm

re: #313 Surabaya Stew

Those Italians...always full of life! ;-)

On a purely selfish level, I'm not opposed to that slide; leaves more of the country for me! :-D

If you're out there now, enjoy and take care.

319 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:32:21pm

re: #318 Decatur Deb

If you're out there now, enjoy and take care.

Thanks Deb! Wish I was out there; sadly, the employment/work situation has caused me to miss my annual sojourn.
:-(

320 sngnsgt  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:33:13pm

re: #315 Decatur Deb

Thanks Deb... ;-)

321 sngnsgt  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:34:34pm

re: #315 Decatur Deb

I worked on Decatur Blvd here in Vegas a few years ago...

322 freetoken  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:35:56pm

re: #1 StillAMarine

I see that the creationists do not have a corner on stupidity.

Speaking of which, today was the big day when students at major campuses across this country were enlightened about the truth of Charles Darwin courtesy of Mr. Ray Comfort.

I wonder how it went?

323 Decatur Deb  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:36:41pm

re: #321 sngnsgt

I think most Decaturs are named for Stephen, the naval hero. I've only been to the one in Alabama.

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:36:45pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Anti-vaxism is contagious.

That should be a bumper sticker!

325 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:39:44pm

re: #322 freetoken

Speaking of which, today was the big day when students at major campuses across this country were enlightened about the truth of Charles Darwin courtesy of Mr. Ray Comfort.

I wonder how it went?

At the campus where I am, about 20 students planned to stand in a semi-circle, take the books, rip out the introduction, hand the introduction back and say thank you, they liked the book - which was great, but that they had enough toilet paper and didn't need the into.

326 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:43:07pm

re: #323 Decatur Deb

I think most Decaturs are named for Stephen, the naval hero. I've only been to the one in Alabama.

There's also the USS Decatur, proudly named in Stephen's honor.

327 nickzi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:45:38pm

I have to say, that having watched Maher defend his appallingly un-scientific views on vaccination, a few thoughts came to mind:

a) if you regret getting the polio vaccination because you think (without any evidence, mind you) that it gave you allergies, I'd suggest you don't have any idea what polio could have done to you.

b) It's obvious that when challenged Maher doesn't resort to scientific argument, but tries to personalize the debate or play victim. This means that at some level he either knows that he is ignorant, or, more likely, doesn't care about what the truth might be. It's "his" position, and he will defend it to the death.

c) I have a terrible fear that some parent will refuse a vaccination for their child, with horrible consequences - and the only person to suffer will be the innocent victim of this vicious crankery.

d) There are some issues that ought, I say ought, to transcend religious or political differences. I wish that vaccination united people in a good way, in support of what science clearly says, rather than becoming some sort of fictitious debate or issue of free speech.

328 recusancy  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:47:20pm

re: #11 Surabaya Stew

Just when I start to think Bill Mahar might turn out to be an intelligent social and political commentator, he plunges into the depths of stupidity. Guess we can ignore him now.

He's always been in the depths of stupidity. He just never has had anybody call him on it because he hides behind idiot guests on his shows.

329 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:49:20pm

I liked Maher's movie "Religulous". I have also liked a few articles he has written from time to time. On other occasions I find him to be a ill-informed idiot - this is one of them.

330 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:53:04pm

re: #328 recusancy

He's always been in the depths of stupidity. He just never has had anybody call him on it because he hides behind idiot guests on his shows.

Like this idiot? Seriously, his guests may be dumber than average, but didn't got the impression that Bill was a few tacos short of a Taco Bell menu until this came to my attention. The fact that he's been doing it since 2005 apparently, just proves that I need to be more observant...

331 recusancy  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 3:57:38pm

re: #330 Surabaya Stew

Like this idiot? Seriously, his guests may be dumber than average, but didn't got the impression that Bill was a few tacos short of a Taco Bell menu until this came to my attention. The fact that he's been doing it since 2005 apparently, just proves that I need to be more observant...

Mos Def is what I would see as the lefts answer to a Palinite/Paulite.

He's a talented actor and rapper though.

332 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:01:09pm

Got Sloth music?

333 Surabaya Stew  Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:13:15pm

re: #331 recusancy

Mos Def is what I would see as the lefts answer to a Palinite/Paulite.

He's a talented actor and rapper though.

This belongs on the Sloth thread...my good friend edited Mos Def's EPK for Sony...was nearly impossible to get a coherent sentence out of the guy due to his slurred speech and sloth-like mannerisms! (Too much laced pot, perhaps?) Which was a shame because both of his parents seems to be bright individuals; outside of freestyling (which another friend of mine helped shoot), the man can't seem to function in a normal human manner.

334 SixDegrees  Thu, Nov 19, 2009 12:02:38am

re: #311 Obdicut

I'm absolutely certain that health care is very, very different from every other industry, given that it involves our very lives.

Maybe. But it's prices, like any other prices, are subject to market forces - and to market distortions.

Just to close the loop on the whole matter of insurance hiding true costs from both patients and doctors, I'll mention that the insurance companies themselves exert some control over costs by refusing to reimburse more than a certain amount for given prescriptions and procedures. Providers normally adjust their costs downward to meet these headwinds.

But this isn't a true marketplace, either, since the insurance companies aren't subject to the same pressures as ordinary consumers. If they encounter too much resistance from providers, they can simply raise rates. The cost per subscriber is much, much lower than the delta cost of the given procedure, and again most consumers don't even see these costs, as they're born by employers.

Employers, in turn, get to write off these expenses (and consumers aren't taxed on the reimbursement they receive for them at all) introducing yet another layer of price hiding into a system already plagued by it.

Expose consumers to the true costs of health care in some way, and prices will go down. Hide the costs at every possible step, as is done now, and prices will inevitably go up.


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