Global Warming Nontroversy of the Day

Environment • Views: 7,861

Right wing bloggers and climate “skeptics” are ranting and fuming about “the global warming scandal of the century,” after the email server of one of the UK’s leading climate research centers was hacked, and thousands of emails were stolen and promptly posted all over the web. (Which is, of course, completely illegal.)

However, reading the summaries that these folks have posted, such as the one in this almost comically exaggerated article by Telegraph writer James Delingpole, one thing stands out — there’s no there there. There’s no evidence of a conspiracy to commit massive fraud. There are no admissions of faking data. The worst thing they’ve dug up out of thousands of emails is this one referring to a “trick” used to adjust warming data, which Delingpole dramatically labels “Manipulation of evidence:”

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

“Trick,” of course, can also mean “an effective technique,” but if you were desperately hunting for anything smear-worthy, I suppose the word would stand out.

RealClimate has responded to this stolen email nontroversy here: The CRU hack.

Since emails are normally intended to be private, people writing them are, shall we say, somewhat freer in expressing themselves than they would in a public statement. For instance, we are sure it comes as no shock to know that many scientists do not hold Steve McIntyre in high regard. Nor that a large group of them thought that the Soon and Baliunas (2003), Douglass et al (2008) or McClean et al (2009) papers were not very good (to say the least) and should not have been published. These sentiments have been made abundantly clear in the literature (though possibly less bluntly).

More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to ‘get rid of the MWP’, no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no ‘marching orders’ from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though.

Instead, there is a peek into how scientists actually interact and the conflicts show that the community is a far cry from the monolith that is sometimes imagined. People working constructively to improve joint publications; scientists who are friendly and agree on many of the big picture issues, disagreeing at times about details and engaging in ‘robust’ discussions; Scientists expressing frustration at the misrepresentation of their work in politicized arenas and complaining when media reports get it wrong; Scientists resenting the time they have to take out of their research to deal with over-hyped nonsense. None of this should be shocking.

Read the whole thing; they make more excellent points about the absurdly exaggerated denialists’ claims.

Here’s their response to the “trick” comment:

No doubt, instances of cherry-picked and poorly-worded “gotcha” phrases will be pulled out of context. One example is worth mentioning quickly. Phil Jones in discussing the presentation of temperature reconstructions stated that “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.” The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction, and the ‘trick’ is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term “trick” to refer to a “a good way to deal with a problem”, rather than something that is “secret”, and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the ‘decline’, it is well known that Keith Briffa’s maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem”–see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while ‘hiding’ is probably a poor choice of words (since it is ‘hidden’ in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.

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490 comments
1 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:28:05am

Why are we concerning ourselves with the looming global warming problem when there are clearly more important topics to concentrate on, such as Oprah Winfrey leaving her show?

/

2 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:28:20am

This story is also making the rounds today...
"30,000 Scientists Sue Al Gore for Fraud"

The 30,000 "scientists" are people with at least a Bachelors of Science in some field, including computer science and other non-research science degrees. They signed a petition back in 1998 saying that they did not believe in Global Warming. Many of them are dead now. None have agreed to be party to a lawsuit.

After nearly two years no lawsuit has been filed. There are actually no grounds that a lawsuit could be based on against Al Gore on the issue of Global Warming.

3 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:28:33am

In an odd way this is cheering news.

4 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:36:04am

Unless they have solid evidence they are essentially rumor mongering and spreading hearsay. It's rather easy to forge an email document. However, the issue at hand is beyond whatever might be contained in the email, this is a criminal act.

Hacking into an email server is equal to breaking into an office or a residence to obtain private information and a crime. This would be like Lockheed-Martin breaking into a Boeing office to obtain technical information or breaking into a congressman's office.

5 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:36:30am

Frankly, this is a boon to the researchers and the scientists. This hack reveals everything they were doing in their correspondence, and will undoubtedly show that they were honest and true to the data. Their discussions in and among themselves will show that to the satisfaction of anyone whose mind isn't already made up.

And the h@xx0rz behind this need to get the book thrown at them.

6 Racer X  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:36:57am

I no longer trust anyone - especially on the internets.

"Trust - but verify" has evolved into "Fact check your ass and still have my doubts".

7 ckb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:38:13am

I think you've underestimated the content of these files. I've read quite a bit of it now, and these men, supposed "professors" and "scientists" are instead totally focused on politics. Their main focus is not science, but public perception. They do not talk about the data, but how good the data looks. And their correspondence among themselves contradicts the attitudes of their publications.

They should all be ashamed.

8 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:38:28am

re: #4 Gus 802

It is not just one email from what I've heard. It is several thousand files.

9 ckb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #5 Guanxi88

Frankly, this is a boon to the researchers and the scientists. This hack reveals everything they were doing in their correspondence, and will undoubtedly show that they were honest and true to the data. Their discussions in and among themselves will show that to the satisfaction of anyone whose mind isn't already made up.

Unfortuantely, the opposite is true. It shows them to be dishonest and persuing an agenda. I do not see how anyone reading it could come to another conclusion.

It makes me sad.

10 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:41:31am

As always, for those who want to look more closely at the actual science:

The Discovery of Global Warming

/hat tip: freetoken

11 filetandrelease  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:41:35am
Just a few weeks ago, Britain's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research added more fuel to the fire with its latest calculations of global average temperatures. According to the Hadley figures, the world grew warmer by 0.07 degrees Celsius from 1999 to 2008, and not by the 0.2 degrees Celsius assumed by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And, say the British experts, when their figure is adjusted for two naturally occurring climate phenomena, El Niño and La Niña, the resulting temperature trend is reduced to 0.0 degrees Celsius -- in other words, a standstill.

Read the whole thing

12 SillyAllah  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:41:44am

As an ex-scientist, I find it refreshing to come to little green footballs and see a simple focus on understand the truth with respect to climate science. Thanks.

13 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:42:08am

Well this should be an interesting "filtering" thread, it appears. Fun, if nothing else.

14 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:42:50am

CO2 doesn't have a party affiliation.

15 Athens Runaway  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:43:03am

re: #13 bosforus

Well this should be an interesting "filtering" thread, it appears. Fun, if nothing else.

Tempers on both sides have flared since the KSM conflagration, at least that's how I've seen it.

16 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:43:37am

re: #14 Sharmuta

CO2 doesn't have a party affiliation.

It also doesn't stop at the border.

17 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:43:52am

re: #8 bosforus

It is not just one email from what I've heard. It is several thousand files.

Right. By email I include associated attachments.

This is a serious matter which has me wondering where it will end? Do the "opponents" respond with hacking email accounts themselves? Now that they've opened the door to hacking will it lead to physical break ins, vandalism, or worse.

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:43:59am

re: #11 filetandrelease

Read the whole thing

We've dealt with this fallacy over and over and over in these threads.

19 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #15 Athens Runaway

KSM?

20 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #17 Gus 802

Right. By email I include associated attachments.

This is a serious matter which has me wondering where it will end? Do the "opponents" respond with hacking email accounts themselves? Now that they've opened the door to hacking will it lead to physical break ins, vandalism, or worse.

As with anything of global concern, probably.

21 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:45:18am

re: #19 bosforus

KSM?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the decision to try him in federal court in NY. It got uglier than anything I've seen. I was part of it.

22 Athens Runaway  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:46:06am
23 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:46:19am

re: #21 Guanxi88

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the decision to try him in federal court in NY. It got uglier than anything I've seen. I was part of it.

Your presence does have a tendency to ugly things up.
/zing!

24 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:46:48am

re: #23 bosforus

Your presence does have a tendency to ugly things up.
/zing!

You sure you're not one of relatives?

25 martinsmithy  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:47:18am

I'm not going to comment on the actual contents of these emails without reading them thoroughly, and I don't know if I will take the time to do so! My comment is on another aspect of this "nontroversy".

People sometimes think emails are the equivalent of a telephone conversation, and forget that they are as much of a "writing" as any letter or memorandum. While these emails were illegally hacked, emails are as "discoverable" in any litigation as any other written document, and as regards public employees, are often subject to disclosure under "public records" laws. I am always very careful what I put into an email and who I send it to - as careful as I would be with anything else I put "in writing."

26 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:47:33am

Thousands of emails from one scientist to another?? I know how I'll be spending my Friday night!

27 filetandrelease  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:47:39am

re: #18 Charles

And I have read them. But this article was just published in Salon, hardly a right leaning outlet. And I was under the impression that the Hadley Centre for Climate Change is a reputable organization? It is hard to keep track.

28 indigosplinter  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:47:39am

Yes, it shows them perusing an agenda and that's really the crux of the issue. What separates pseudo-scientific "skeptics" from genuine, professionally-engaged skeptics is that the latter believe that there is very little, outright fraud.

I'm also an ex-scientist and I find a number of the methodologies used by climate scientists to be distasteful, misleading, and inconsistent with the scientific method and standards applied to almost every other branch of inquiry. The problem is that most of them believe that these techniques are honest tools for their discipline, rather than seeing them as massaging data in a misleading way. And that's where the agenda comes in: you "correct" and re-normalize data until it "looks right," rather than from first principles. The only problem is, if you think you know what that is, you'll come to a conclusion and then rationalize the techniques you used. This is clearly shown in their correspondence. It's not surprising, not conspiratorial and yet gets to the heart of the issue. It's a bit like Bernard Goldberg's theory of original media bias. There is no dark cabal of global warming, just a lot of groupthink.

The upshot is that it creates uncertainty and doubt in a field that needs serious and investigation.

29 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #26 cliffster

Thousands of emails from one scientist to another?? I know how I'll be spending my Friday night!

Drinking.

30 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:48:39am

re: #24 Guanxi88

You sure you're not one of relatives?

Touche

31 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:49:03am

re: #29 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Drinking.

Well, the -king part is right, it's the first part of the word that's a little different.

32 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:49:53am

re: #9 ckb

Unfortuantely, the opposite is true. It shows them to be dishonest and persuing an agenda. I do not see how anyone reading it could come to another conclusion.

It makes me sad.

My understanding is that the hack involved quite a few messages. Assuming they were all read and interpreted correctly, there would surely be at least some substantial portion of them that look simply awful. Inter-office and inter-colleague emails where I work are frequently written in contravention of the "anything you wouldn't want read back to you in court" rule.

Given the number of egos at work in any organization of any size where the vast majority of the participants all possess little bits of paper attesting to their intellect and cleverness, and the desire to make a name and away for yourself, I doubt very much there'd be much that would be "damning" to the case for AGW.

33 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:50:54am

re: #28 indigosplinter

I completely disagree with your take. I've been reading through some of this stuff this morning, and I don't see any of this "groupthink" at all. In fact, there's a lot of disagreement in these emails.

34 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:52:29am

re: #16 lawhawk

It also doesn't stop at the border.

Isn't China wonderful?

35 borgcube  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:52:50am

This one is going to have to settle for awhile. It's too early to make too much or too little of this yet. It's not the scientific scandal of the century (although we're only 10 years in so maybe it is, I don't know) but it doesn't make these guys look like they were completely interested in pure science either. I don't think this can help the pro AGW arguments at all no matter what comes from this, illegal hack included. In fact, if the main focus becomes the hack and not what's contained in these emails, that will only add fuel to the anti-AGW side.

36 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:53:27am

re: #7 ckb

I think you've underestimated the content of these files. I've read quite a bit of it now, and these men, supposed "professors" and "scientists" are instead totally focused on politics. Their main focus is not science, but public perception. They do not talk about the data, but how good the data looks. And their correspondence among themselves contradicts the attitudes of their publications.

They should all be ashamed.

I anyone should be ashamed it's the people that hacked into the email account. It should be the people that will manipulate the correspondence to fit their own particular agenda. The way people talk in private is none of our business. I have no interest in knowing how Inhofe corresponds with Exxon in their email exchanges. This not only a crime but it is both immoral and highly unethical regardless of whose "side" we are on.

Whoever is responsible better have a good lawyer.

37 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:54:06am

re: #36 Gus 802

I If anyone should be ashamed...

PIMF

38 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:54:21am

re: #35 borgcube

This one is going to have to settle for awhile. It's too early to make too much or too little of this yet. It's not the scientific scandal of the century (although we're only 10 years in so maybe it is, I don't know) but it doesn't make these guys look like they were completely interested in pure science either.

These are private emails! Why is it surprising that the conversations are not all about "pure science?"

39 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:54:45am

re: #36 Gus 802

I anyone should be ashamed it's the people that hacked into the email account. It should be the people that will manipulate the correspondence to fit their own particular agenda. The way people talk in private is none of our business. I have no interest in knowing how Inhofe corresponds with Exxon in their email exchanges. This not only a crime but it is both immoral and highly unethical regardless of whose "side" we are on.

Whoever is responsible better have a good lawyer.

Yep.

40 filetandrelease  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:55:03am

re: #36 Gus 802

I anyone should be ashamed it's the people that hacked into the email account. It should be the people that will manipulate the correspondence to fit their own particular agenda. The way people talk in private is none of our business. I have no interest in knowing how Inhofe corresponds with Exxon in their email exchanges. This not only a crime but it is both immoral and highly unethical regardless of whose "side" we are on.

Whoever is responsible better have a good lawyer.

When this happened to Sarah Palin I felt the same way, so be to consistent, I agree completely.

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #34 Sharmuta

Racist neoconfederate RS McCain is complaining about us this morning...

...by my forceful response to Charles Johnson's bullying in September, compelled him to admit the truth: He is not a conservative, and never has been a conservative.

The result is that Johnson and his crew (Sharmuta, Trout, et al.) have lost any ability to influence conservatives with their insidious attacks on Pamela Geller, the Tea Party movement, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, etc. This renders LGF an exercise in futility, politically as inert as argon.

42 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:55:35am

re: #35 borgcube

This one is going to have to settle for awhile. It's too early to make too much or too little of this yet. It's not the scientific scandal of the century (although we're only 10 years in so maybe it is, I don't know) but it doesn't make these guys look like they were completely interested in pure science either. I don't think this can help the pro AGW arguments at all no matter what comes from this, illegal hack included. In fact, if the main focus becomes the hack and not what's contained in these emails, that will only add fuel to the anti-AGW side.

Conversely this will make the anti-AGW side look like they're aiding and abating criminal activity which in fact they are even if they use whatever what was found in said emails.

43 indigosplinter  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:55:39am

re: #33 Charles

I'm just talking about the general agreement on what techniques are acceptable in looking at data. Yes, there are different ideas on what data to look at and how it should be used. But, for instance, look at the general nod at how to correct for cooling trends. The right thing to do is to correct for known uncertainties and then look at what's left. If it supports your theory, great--keep working. If not, great too--you have some work to do: possibly on your thinking, possibly in understanding your data.

These guys wanted to clean up the data so it looked familiar for a letter they were sending to lawmakers. That's not a good enough reason.

44 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:56:02am

re: #31 MrSilverDragon

Well, the -king part is right, it's the first part of the word that's a little different.

Coo?

45 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:57:37am

re: #44 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Coo?

Uh... yes! That's it...

(pleads ignorance)

46 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:58:02am

None of this makes AGW more or less real.

It does, however, make manufactured AGW hysteria seem just a tad more manufactured.

47 filetandrelease  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:58:59am

Shit, I can't believe I just updinged Cato.

48 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 11:59:09am

re: #43 indigosplinter

These guys wanted to clean up the data so it looked familiar for a letter they were sending to lawmakers. That's not a good enough reason.

No, that's your take on it and I don't agree at all. Using an accepted technique to correct data is NOT the same as "cleaning it up" to remove stuff they don't like.

49 borgcube  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:00:03pm

re: #38 Charles

They do show an agenda in my opinion at quick glance. I don't understand nor pretend to understand all of the terms nor am I yet another ex or current scientist here in LGF, so I may be way off. That's just how I read them at first.

Private emails can show what people are really thinking or doing behind their public or professional roles. I think it's revolting beyond belief that this was done, but it was done. And now there's going to be an examination of what was exchanged. Like I said, I think this is going to have to shake out for awhile.

50 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:00:20pm

re: #47 filetandrelease

Shit, I can't believe I just updinged Cato.

I keep telling people: Contrary to all appearances and expectations, Cato's an all right guy, who'll spar just as friendly or as hard as you please, provided you aren't an idiot and provided you can put three words together to express a coherent thought.

51 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

I keep telling people: Contrary to all appearances and expectations, Cato's an all right guy, who'll spar just as friendly or as hard as you please, provided you aren't an idiot and provided you can put three words together to express a coherent thought.

Crap, well that puts me out, then.

52 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:01:26pm

re: #49 borgcube

They do show an agenda in my opinion at quick glance.

If you mean an "agenda" to discuss global warming, that's pretty obviously the intent of the mailing list. If you mean an "agenda" to promote false claims, I could not possibly disagree more. I don't see this at all.

53 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:02:15pm

re: #46 Cato the Elder

None of this makes AGW more or less real.

It does, however, make manufactured AGW hysteria seem just a tad more manufactured.

If that's the case then we can now see the anti-AGW side as being a tad more criminal.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:02:16pm

re: #15 Athens Runaway

Tempers on both sides have flared since the KSM conflagration, at least that's how I've seen it.

We're all pretty sore at each other right now.

Price we pay for not being an echo chamber.

We're big kids, we'll get over it.

55 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:02:46pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

You and I, as commenters on a completely irrelevant blog, seem to have an awful lot of irrelevancy ourselves to go so unnoticed by Stacy.

56 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:03:31pm

re: #36 Gus 802

I anyone should be ashamed it's the people that hacked into the email account. It should be the people that will manipulate the correspondence to fit their own particular agenda. The way people talk in private is none of our business. I have no interest in knowing how Inhofe corresponds with Exxon in their email exchanges. This not only a crime but it is both immoral and highly unethical regardless of whose "side" we are on.

Whoever is responsible better have a good lawyer.

Yup. Gotta agree. I firmly believe global warming is a fact, but do not know how much, if any, of the warming is caused by the solar cycle. Fact is, our pumping of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere is not helping the situation. On the other hand, programs such as Cap and Trade will cause the United States great harm economically, but will do little to alleviate the situation. ALL countries need to get on board with a solution.

Dream on there ...

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:05:00pm

re: #28 indigosplinter


I'm also an ex-scientist

How can you be an ex-scientist?

58 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:05:01pm

re: #53 Gus 802

If that's the case then we can now see the anti-AGW side as being a tad more criminal.

You mean criminal like the pimp 'n' ho act on the penultimate thread, and their illegal tapes of ACORN?

I agree with you. Hacking stuff off of private computers is wrong.

We'd better get used to it, though; privacy and the internet are mutually exclusive concepts.

59 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:05:15pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

You and I, as commenters on a completely irrelevant blog, seem to have an awful lot of irrelevancy ourselves to go so unnoticed by Stacy.

Does he have witnesses?

60 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:05:31pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

How can you be an ex-scientist?

Just takes a lebotomy, and voila.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:05:40pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Isn't China wonderful?

It is, at least, very big.

/

62 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:06:32pm

re: #58 Cato the Elder

You mean criminal like the pimp 'n' ho act on the penultimate thread, and their illegal tapes of ACORN?

I agree with you. Hacking stuff off of private computers is wrong.

We'd better get used to it, though; privacy and the internet are mutually exclusive concepts.

If that's the case we might be looking at open season. If anything, I have a sneaking suspicion that there are far more hackers on the AGW side.

63 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:07:15pm

re: #59 MandyManners

Does he have witnesses?

You betcha.

64 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:07:30pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

How can you be an ex-scientist?

Reproduce Franklin's experiment with keys and leyden jars.

65 borgcube  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:07:46pm

re: #42 Gus 802

I believe that will be secondary to what is actually in these exchanges in the long run, regardless of what that turns out to be. And now that these are in public view, it's silly to think you are going to be able to truly impugn anyone who uses them now for whatever agenda they have in mind. Look in here alone, we're already discussing them and we didn't do anything wrong. Only those who actually did the hacking will get nailed criminally, and even then, that may take quite some time. These emails are no longer private and there's no way to enforce it now anyway.

66 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:07:50pm

re: #40 filetandrelease

When this happened to Sarah Palin I felt the same way, so be to consistent, I agree completely.

I too felt the same way when they hacked into Sarah Palin's email.

67 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:09:02pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Isn't China wonderful?

I like Chinese:

68 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:09:21pm

Well, we had a productive morning at work. We checked out the projector for meetings and spent the last 2 hours watching Star Trek. Now we got pizza.

69 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:09:35pm

OT, from The Onion tody:

Senator Byrd The Longest-Serving Lawmaker

After more than 56 years in office, 92-year-old Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) has become the longest-serving member of Congress. What do you think?

Vicki Wiedlin,
Systems Analyst
"It's sad that, even today, the Senate's still the only way for a West Virginia boy to get out of the mines."

Tom Valentine,
Door Patcher
"In 1964 he denies civil rights, then in 2008 he backs Barack Obama. Who knows how he'll feel about black people in 2052?"

Joe Caffey,
Notch Grinder
"Who is the shortest-serving member of Congress? I feel like that's the guy who needs the most encouragement."

70 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:11:43pm

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, we had a productive morning at work. We checked out the projector for meetings and spent the last 2 hours watching Star Trek. Now we got pizza.

Wow, do you guys need a network engineer for anything? That sounds like the kind of place I'd want to work...

71 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:11:47pm

Post all the emails.

72 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:11:47pm

re: #66 Gus 802

I too felt the same way when they hacked into Sarah Palin's email.

Updung for the sentiment, but private email=private churchbell.

73 indigosplinter  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:12:07pm

re: #48 Charles

And that's what I disagree with. It may be an accepted technique in the discipline, but it really shouldn't be. De-trending is not an a priori analysis technique to be used lightly, yet its one they used here as an "accepted" technique. I don't believe it was invoked dishonestly, but this is exactly the kind of thing that should never be applied casually to data. There's context for everything, which we don't have, but I'm pretty sure I know what was done, and in any other field the natural questions would be: "Now, why did you do something dumb like that?" "The trends are what you want... where'd you get the data..?"

74 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:12:32pm

This might be a good thread to discuss the difference between hacking and cracking. As I understand it, hacking is the manipulation of data for an alternate use from its intended use but it is not illegal. Cracking, on the other hand, is the illegal breaching of a software/hardware's security measures to obtain information. Colloquially, I believe the word "hacking" has become what "cracking" really is.

75 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:12:54pm

re: #38 Charles

I disagree with the notion that these are all "Private" in the sense that they were sent through a publicaly funded mail server.

Frankly, the "private" discussions about how to hide information from FOIA requests is very alarming, and since this in itself is evidence of at best a breach of the public trust and at worst criminal behavior (fraud) I believe the release of this information can be covered by various whistle blower protections.

So lets be honest here:

This is a major fail for CRU, on many levels. (The Fortran code does compile though. Nice!) I wondering if the same outfit that revamped the GOP website was responsible for CRU's seekurity. +10 facepalm right there, and it only leads to more questions about their overall competence.

From a scientific standpoint however, I would agree that this are no smoking guns... *yet*. Some interesting data was also released, but it would be premature to identify what information it could contain or if there is any evidence of fraud.

Definitely not the time to bust out the "hurray for our side!" horns yet.

76 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #71 Ben Hur

There are two ftp sites that I linked to back in the overnight thread.

77 Marsoupial  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:13:38pm

re: #74 bosforus

Then there is "Mole" and "Whistle blower".

78 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:14:03pm

re: #72 Decatur Deb

Updung for the sentiment, but private email=private churchbell.

Yeah, I know. But in recent years this is being treated more like a physical crime.

79 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:14:14pm

re: #77 Marsoupial

Then there is "Mole" and "Whistle blower".

Welcome, n00b! Have an upding for a good point.

80 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:14:36pm

re: #77 Marsoupial

Then there is "Mole" and "Whistle blower".

Welcome, hatchling--er, pouchling?

81 indigosplinter  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:14:37pm

re: #74 bosforus

Cracking is the removal of all access restrictions so that it can be used by anyone for any purpose. Like bypassing a lock, or publishing the activation codes for software.

Hacking is bypassing or working around controls and causing a system to work in a way other than originally designed or intended, usually to access data.

82 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:16:03pm

re: #76 bosforus

There are two ftp sites that I linked to back in the overnight thread.

Have the emails been confirmed as real?

I understand that there are over 1000 of them.

I've seen some posted at different news sites (Telegraph, Guardian, etc).

Half of them could be fake, no? Or all real?

83 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #71 Ben Hur

Post all the emails.

Did you also call for that when Sarah Palin's Yahoo account was broken into?

84 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:16:24pm

re: #75 saik0max0r

I disagree with the notion that these are all "Private" in the sense that they were sent through a publicaly funded mail server.

Frankly, the "private" discussions about how to hide information from FOIA requests is very alarming, and since this in itself is evidence of at best a breach of the public trust and at worst criminal behavior (fraud) I believe the release of this information can be covered by various whistle blower protections.

So lets be honest here:

SNIP

That is the job of the courts and law enforcement. It is not the job of internet vigilantism and hackers.

85 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:16:31pm

re: #55 Sharmuta

Heh. I just get lumped in as the et al. Then again, if anyone clicks my profile, they'd see that I consider myself neoliberal, not conservative or liberal. But that's just me.

86 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:17:25pm

re: #85 lawhawk

Heh. I just get lumped in as the et al. Then again, if anyone clicks my profile, they'd see that I consider myself neoliberal, not conservative or liberal. But that's just me.


Well of course it is. Who else would it be!?!?!

Gggeeezzz!!!
//

87 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:17:34pm

re: #82 Ben Hur

I'm not sure if they've been proved to be anything though I believe they are real. One of the pdf's I saw had tracked changes so it'd be an awful lot of work to forge. Short answer - I don't know.

88 friarstale  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:17:49pm

my question on Global Warming is this:

what can we do about it?

is the only answer is to stop burning fossil fuels?

89 sattv4u2  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:17:51pm

And on that note, I'm going to beddy bye!

90 MandyManners  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:17:51pm

re: #71 Ben Hur

Post all the emails.

It's a public institution, isn't it?

91 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:18:07pm

re: #70 MrSilverDragon

Wow, do you guys need a network engineer for anything? That sounds like the kind of place I'd want to work...

Nah, network security auditing. We cleared our weekly slate yesterday and the customer canceled the work he wanted done today, so we're just bumming around till early afternoon. We decided we're going to watch V for the next 3 hours and then leaving.

92 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:18:15pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

How can you be an ex-scientist?

What's with the indigo?

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:18:24pm

re: #85 lawhawk

Heh. I just get lumped in as the et al. Then again, if anyone clicks my profile, they'd see that I consider myself neoliberal, not conservative or liberal. But that's just me.

One of the govt. teachers at my school sent the kids around to ask adults they knew if they were conservative or liberal, and why. It was pretty funny.

94 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #75 saik0max0r

Frankly, the "private" discussions about how to hide information from FOIA requests is very alarming, and since this in itself is evidence of at best a breach of the public trust and at worst criminal behavior (fraud) I believe the release of this information can be covered by various whistle blower protections.

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

95 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Yeah, I know. But in recent years this is being treated more like a physical crime.

I'm used to .mil systems. We had zero expectation of privacy. At the very least, the sys admins own everything.

96 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:19:21pm

re: #88 friarstale

my question on Global Warming is this:

what can we do about it?

Send money to Al Gore.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:20:33pm

re: #94 Charles

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Even if the police might have seized the stolen property in my neighbors home, I will still be charged if I break into his house to take pictures of it.

98 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:20:36pm

re: #83 Charles

Did you also call for that when Sarah Palin's Yahoo account was broken into?

I don't remember.

You mean the ones from her google account, or from her government account?

Regardless, since people are discussing the merits of what was in the emails, maybe they should be posted, as they are in other sites.

I didn't think explaining what one word can mean out of 1000+ emails settles anything.

I'm starting to think they're real because some are reacting as they were clergy who just met an alien that stepped off a space ship.

99 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:20:52pm

re: #95 Decatur Deb

I'm used to .mil systems. We had zero expectation of privacy. At the very least, the sys admins own everything.

That was our policy when I was in the Marines. All materials on our servers, including emails, belonged first to the USMC and its appointed custodians.

100 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:21:11pm

Charles, what about the discussion about deleting emails?

Phil Jones specifically asks Mann "Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?"

I think that is a pretty strong indicator that something is rotten in Denmark...

...but maybe I'm wrong.

101 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:21:34pm

re: #94 Charles

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

I don't think anyone is arguing that they were illegally hacked.

102 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:22:23pm

re: #101 Ben Hur

I don't think anyone is arguing that they were illegally hacked.

That they WERE NOT illegally hacked.

my bad.

Obviously it was illegal.

103 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:23:21pm

Mankind is either causing temperatures to go up through their actions or they're not. Whether these scientists are politicizing or not.. whether global warming doubters are politicizing or not.. whether cap and trade would destroy the economy or not..

104 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:23:40pm

re: #99 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That was our policy when I was in the Marines. All materials on our servers, including emails, belonged first to the USMC and its appointed custodians.

Right. If we weren't willing to shout it in the hall, we didn't type it. The academics were just slow to learn.

105 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:24:07pm

re: #94 Charles

there are "greater good" defences that can be mounted in a court of law by whistle blowers - but true, there is no way around keeping something out of court in the UK unless the Crown Prosecution Service believes there is not enough evidence or if it was not in the "public interest" .

106 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:24:12pm

Hit me up on freenode.net #max0rzre: #84 Gus 802

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Besides having presented no proof that the server was "broken into", rooting some insecure mail server pales in comparison in the criminal scale to conspiring to hide information from FOIA requests.

Nice try though.

107 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:24:41pm

Just because the leading cloning scientist in S Korea turned out to publish fraudulent data, etc, it doesn't mean that cloning doesn't exist, or that what he fudged couldn't be done by others.

108 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:25:11pm

Does this change any data?

109 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #94 Charles

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Besides having presented no proof that the server was "broken into", rooting some insecure mail server pales in comparison in the criminal scale to conspiring to hide information from FOIA requests.

Nice try though.

110 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:25:36pm

re: #94 Charles

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Good Grief! Are there people out there who think that breaking in to somebody's private residence or private data is not illegal? If the target were some drug lord and you were an official of law enforcement with a proper search warrant, then no, it is not illegal. But the actions of these crackers who manifestly did not have the authority to break into a private email server was flat out illegal. As well, dignifying them with the label "hackers" is also incorrect.

111 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:26:18pm

re: #107 Ben Hur

Just because the leading cloning scientist in S Korea turned out to publish fraudulent data, etc, it doesn't mean that cloning doesn't exist, or that what he fudged couldn't be done by others.

This doesn't change NASA's data. AGW is real, but accepting the science doesn't equal accept the left's solutions.

112 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:26:26pm

re: #106 saik0max0r

Nice try though.

Right back atcha.

113 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:26:42pm

re: #104 Decatur Deb

Right. If we weren't willing to shout it in the hall, we didn't type it. The academics were just slow to learn.

We kept telling people, imagine that your CO and your mother were looking over your shoulder everytime you used your system and you wouldn't get into trouble. Never the less, my time as an email administrator led me to being a witness in more court martials and office hours than I can remember.

114 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:26:53pm

re: #110 StillAMarine

Good Grief! Are there people out there who think that breaking in to somebody's private residence or private data is not illegal? If the target were some drug lord and you were an official of law enforcement with a proper search warrant, then no, it is not illegal. But the actions of these crackers who manifestly did not have the authority to break into a private email server was flat out illegal. As well, dignifying them with the label "hackers" is also incorrect.

Hey. We don't know the ethnicity of the perps yet!

///

115 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

Does this change any data?

Nope.

116 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

It very well might.

I saw some link over to Climate Audit that explains the context behind one of the emails. Take that site with a grain of salt, of course, but it does look somewhat damning.

117 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #109 saik0max0r

Nice try though.

"Nice try?" What is that supposed to mean? I'm not "trying" anything -- I'm pointing out the simple fact that whoever broke into the email server committed a serious crime, and when they're caught they will certainly be prosecuted for it.

118 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:01pm

re: #106 saik0max0r

Hit me up on freenode.net #max0rz

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Besides having presented no proof that the server was "broken into", rooting some insecure mail server pales in comparison in the criminal scale to conspiring to hide information from FOIA requests.

Nice try though.

No, and no. If I suspect my neighbor is dealing drugs and I break into his house to find proof on my own and post it on the internet I am breaking the law regardless. That is vigilantism and that job is set aside for law enforcement. In this matter it is something that should have been left to the courts if needed.

This was unethical, immoral and a crime. Full stop.

Nice try though.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:07pm

re: #106 saik0max0r

Hit me up on freenode.net #max0rz

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Besides having presented no proof that the server was "broken into", rooting some insecure mail server pales in comparison in the criminal scale to conspiring to hide information from FOIA requests.

Nice try though.

"But officer, they didn't even lock their back door...how can you arrest me for 'stealing' their insecure TV?"

You gotta be kidding me.

120 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:20pm

Still awfully contentious in here. Is it a 3-day full moon?

121 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:26pm

re: #116 hebrewtoyou

I doubt it. Sorry, but AGW is real.

122 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:32pm

re: #110 StillAMarine

Ever hear of this thing called Carnivore?

Do you know what Companies like Narus build and sell to various private entities and governments? Unless you encrypt everything on the Internet, it's not private, wishful thinking otherwise.

123 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:28:52pm

re: #75 saik0max0r

You know that whistleblower laws are to protect employees, right, not random people who break into companies and rifle through files?

124 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:29:08pm

I think it's much too soon to be granting any validity at all to this. My first reaction was that the suspect emails were a bit too over the top to be believable, a bit too exactly like what someone hoping to find fraud would wish for.

I don't see much point in discussing this until more is known, either establishing validity or exposing a hoax. It isn't clear yet whether any of the material is real or forged, so there's not even a basis for speculation.

125 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:29:08pm

re: #120 cliffster

Still awfully contentious in here. Is it a 3-day full moon?

126 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:29:09pm

re: #114 Ben Hur

Hey, y'all.

//

127 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:29:12pm

I don't agree with saik0max0r at all, but the commentary does raise an interesting point:

What if this was an inside job?

It may not be a break-in as Phil Jones claims but rather an employee with high-level access leaking information. Still a crime, of course, but one that may be protected by Whistleblower law.

128 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:29:46pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

I doubt it. Sorry, but AGW is real.

I'm on the fence about the A part.

It's why I listen, more than post (usually) on AGW threads, and try to post shit I find from both sides.

129 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:30:01pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Enough with the pertinent analogies already! /

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:30:18pm

re: #120 cliffster

Still awfully contentious in here. Is it a 3-day full moon?

Everyone is still kind of..cranky.

131 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:30:38pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, isn't the skeptic argument that global temperature is trending upward but still nowhere near that experienced during the Medieval Warming Period? If the numbers were fudged to show otherwise, doesn't that seem to impact the argument?

132 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:30:42pm

re: #114 Ben Hur

Hey. We don't know the ethnicity of the perps yet!

///

That was terrible. I will continue to groan until bedtime.

(The proper response to my whining is, "Thank you.")

133 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:30:49pm

re: #128 Ben Hur

I'm on the fence about the A part.

It's why I listen, more than post (usually) on AGW threads, and try to post shit I find from both sides.

You mean, from the scientists, and the people who smear the scientists?

134 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:08pm

re: #127 hebrewtoyou

I don't agree with saik0max0r at all, but the commentary does raise an interesting point:

What if this was an inside job?

It may not be a break-in as Phil Jones claims but rather an employee with high-level access leaking information. Still a crime, of course, but one that may be protected by Whistleblower law.

Could be an intelligence agency of a government that wants nothing to do with Copenhagen.

Is it coinkedink that this was "leaked" so close to the acancelled assembly?

135 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:19pm

re: #131 hebrewtoyou

The Medieval Warm Period wasn't global. That's a highly debunked talking point.

136 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

..waits for proof that anything was "broken into".

137 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:34pm

Has it been revealed who the haxzors were? Or what nation the hack came from? Anything?

138 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:41pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

"But officer, they didn't even lock their back door...how can you arrest me for 'stealing' their insecure TV?"

You gotta be kidding me.

UNCOVERED MEAT!!

139 louis  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:54pm

I am a "global warming skeptic" but this is much ado about nothing. It is not the smoking gun against AGW that some folks think it is.

140 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:31:59pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

Everyone is still kind of..cranky.

Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

141 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #135 Obdicut

Obdicut, "debunked by whom" may just become a valid counterpoint...

142 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:32:20pm

re: #137 bosforus

Has it been revealed who the haxzors were? Or what nation the hack came from? Anything?

Russians, from what I hear.

143 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #122 saik0max0r

Ever hear of this thing called Carnivore?

Do you know what Companies like Narus build and sell to various private entities and governments? Unless you encrypt everything on the Internet, it's not private, wishful thinking otherwise.

So true. The Internet has long since been hijacked by organized crime and terrorists. That is why "secure connection" is an oxymoron.
Cripes, a serious SSL flaw has been discovered that can open your "secure" connections to man in the middle attacks.

144 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:32:52pm

re: #142 Guanxi88

Russians, from what I hear.

Commie bastards.

145 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:02pm

re: #136 saik0max0r

..waits for proof that anything was "broken into".

Unauthorized access and distibution of confidential materials are criminal acts.

146 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:06pm

re: #140 cliffster

Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

147 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:22pm

re: #128 Ben Hur

I'm on the fence about the A part.

It's why I listen, more than post (usually) on AGW threads, and try to post shit I find from both sides.

Check out my link in #10. That's what I've been working through. Start with the introduction essay, and from there, you can look around the site and find lots of other reading, such as why it's not sun spots, or ocean currents driving change right now. Pretty informative and not so technical we can't understand.

148 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:37pm

re: #109 saik0max0r

Absolutely not. It is flat-out illegal to break into a private email server and steal the data. Whistle-blowing statues (if there are such things in the UK) do not grant protection against illegal actions.

Besides having presented no proof that the server was "broken into", rooting some insecure mail server pales in comparison in the criminal scale to conspiring to hide information from FOIA requests.

Nice try though.

I'd suggest that you need a better grounding in computer privacy law. For better or worse, the depth of your ignorance in these matters prevents me from presenting the vast amount of information that would be required to get you caught up. The short answer is that Charles is perfectly correct in what he stated, and you are quite wrong.

149 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:43pm

re: #145 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The access may not have been unauthorized -- and distribution can be protected by Whistleblower law. Or so my understanding goes...

150 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:52pm

re: #127 hebrewtoyou


What if this was an inside job?

Phil has been known to leave stuff lying around on Anon FTP servers.

151 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:33:56pm

re: #147 Sharmuta

Check out my link in #10. That's what I've been working through. Start with the introduction essay, and from there, you can look around the site and find lots of other reading, such as why it's not sun spots, or ocean currents driving change right now. Pretty informative and not so technical we can't understand.

Will bookmark it for later.

Thanks.

152 avanti  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:08pm

Former Bush attorneys talk about the NYC terrorist trials, with interesting incites.

trials.

153 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:10pm

re: #136 saik0max0r

..waits for proof that anything was "broken into".

Hackers target leading climate research unit.

A university spokesman confirmed the email system had been hacked and that information was taken and published without permission.

An investigation was underway and the police had been informed, he added.

"We are aware that information from a server used for research information in one area of the university has been made available on public websites," the spokesman stated.

"Because of the volume of this information we cannot currently confirm that all of this material is genuine.

"This information has been obtained and published without our permission and we took immediate action to remove the server in question from operation.

"We are undertaking a thorough internal investigation and we have involved the police in this enquiry."

154 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #146 Ben Hur

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

My name is Inigo Montoya, prepare to die!

155 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:45pm

re: #149 hebrewtoyou

The access may not have been unauthorized -- and distribution can be protected by Whistleblower law. Or so my understanding goes...

Whistleblower laws are to protect employees from actions taken by their employers, not a license to commit felonies.

156 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:46pm

re: #142 Guanxi88

Russians, from what I hear.


Ah yes, from the same article with the ftp links.
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

157 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #154 cliffster

My name is Inigo Montoya, prepare to die!

As you wish...

158 drcordell  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #154 cliffster

My name is Inigo Montoya, prepare to die!

NEVER start a land war in China!!!

159 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:34:55pm

re: #150 saik0max0r

Phil Jones has now been documented to be a less than ethical player in all of this. I do think anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt...

160 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:35:10pm

re: #153 Charles

Yes.

But was it hacked hacked?

161 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:35:21pm

LOL!

162 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:35:22pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

Everyone is still kind of..cranky.

No. But there are two full moons next month, at least in this hemisphere.

163 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:35:45pm

re: #156 bosforus

Ah yes, from the same article with the ftp links.
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

But still, it's just a Russian ftp site. That does not necessarily mean that the hackers were in Russia, or are Russian, or whatever. It's just the domain of the ftp site.

164 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:35:59pm

re: #153 Charles

Charles, isn't that "spokesman" Phil Jones, who I quoted further up in the comments as asking Mann to delete emails?

165 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:36:13pm

re: #156 bosforus

Ah yes, from the same article with the ftp links.
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

Tell you what, though, I ain't downloading NOTHIN' from an anonymous FTP server in Russia.

166 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:36:18pm

In Soviet Russia yada yada yada...

167 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:36:18pm

re: #160 Ben Hur

Yes.

But was it hacked hacked?

But.. are you pregnant pregnant?

168 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:36:43pm

re: #162 SixDegrees

No. But there are two full moons next month, at least in this hemisphere.

Maybe we can do polls on Cap/Trade and Drug Legalization.

169 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:36:51pm

re: #127 hebrewtoyou

I don't agree with saik0max0r at all, but the commentary does raise an interesting point:

What if this was an inside job?

It may not be a break-in as Phil Jones claims but rather an employee with high-level access leaking information. Still a crime, of course, but one that may be protected by Whistleblower law.

True. But only if the insider had authorized access to the data. Then (s)he might be so protected. But even then I see it as a long shot.

170 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:08pm

re: #164 hebrewtoyou

Charles, isn't that "spokesman" Phil Jones, who I quoted further up in the comments as asking Mann to delete emails?

What happens if you obtain evidence illegally and try to present it in court?

171 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:24pm

re: #169 StillAMarine

Absolutely a long shot. No doubt about that.

172 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #164 hebrewtoyou

Charles, isn't that "spokesman" Phil Jones, who I quoted further up in the comments as asking Mann to delete emails?

Do you really think he would falsely file police reports on a serious crime?

173 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:35pm

re: #169 StillAMarine

True. But only if the insider had authorized access to the data. Then (s)he might be so protected. But even then I see it as a long shot.

Someone knew what to look for. And where.

(Disclosure: I know nothing about hacking)

174 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:39pm

re: #153 Charles

I hadn't seen that the University had acknowledged the material. That leaves the question of whether any of it has been altered, added or deleted remaining, but at least establishes that much of the story as true.

175 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:46pm

re: #170 Gus 802

What if the "court" is the court of public opinion?

176 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:37:53pm

re: #170 Gus 802

What happens if you obtain evidence illegally and try to present it in court?

You get asked to move to North Korea.

177 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:38:16pm

re: #176 Sharmuta

You get asked to move to North Korea.

:)

178 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:38:27pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Maybe we can do polls on Cap/Trade and Drug Legalization.

My responses:

1) No way
2) Dude!

179 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:38:39pm

re: #172 Charles

He very well might have committed a crime already, Charles, if the emails prove to be true.

180 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:00pm

re: #179 hebrewtoyou

He very well might have committed a crime already, Charles, if the emails prove to be true.

Oh please.

181 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:09pm

re: #175 hebrewtoyou

What if the "court" is the court of public opinion?

Then the judge is a hack and the jury's a buncha morons.

182 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:23pm

re: #165 Guanxi88

Tell you what, though, I ain't downloading NOTHIN' from an anonymous FTP server in Russia.

Chicken, I bet you still use condoms too.

///

183 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:32pm

re: #181 Guanxi88

Ha!

184 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:35pm

re: #163 bosforus

But still, it's just a Russian ftp site. That does not necessarily mean that the hackers were in Russia, or are Russian, or whatever. It's just the domain of the ftp site.

That's correct. Given that there's some indication of sophistication at work here beyond snot-nosed script kiddies, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the material has made several stops along the way to it's final destination in an attempt to obscure who was handling it.

185 charlesincharge  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:39:36pm

re: #48 Charles

No, that's your take on it and I don't agree at all. Using an accepted technique to correct data is NOT the same as "cleaning it up" to remove stuff they don't like.

The data are the data. It should be reported as collected. Then you can prove the collection of the data was incorrect or the data has been corrupted in some way.Or you can explain why the data seems contrary to your hypothesis (ie El Nino, La Nina). You should not "correct" or "clean up" or "trick" the data.

186 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:40:26pm

re: #165 Guanxi88

Tell you what, though, I ain't downloading NOTHIN' from an anonymous FTP server in Russia.

Do it, I bypass all dare levels and immediately triple dog dare you!

187 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:40:56pm

re: #180 Charles

Charles, don't be so hasty in assuming Phil Jones has his hands clean. That's all I'm sayin'.

188 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:41:25pm

You mean there is nothing to this?!?! Golly durn, it was MY turn to flip the FOX NEWS ALERT! (We're all gonna die!) switch!

*Stomps foot, adds to Global Warming by expelling steam from his ears*

189 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #159 hebrewtoyou

Phil Jones has now been documented to be a less than ethical player in all of this. I do think anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt...

The BBC's article does not identify the university "spokesman."

190 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #186 bosforus

Do it, I bypass all dare levels and immediately triple dog dare you!

Damn you! Lemme just click over there.

There we are.

Okay, save or run?

Save.

Save as "THIS'LL_F*CK_THE_LIFE_OUTTA_YER_COMPUTER_AND_EVERYTHING_WITHIN_10_MILES_OF_A_ROUTER.exe."

191 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:42:56pm

re: #189 Charles

I saw that information here. I don't know ANYTHING about the source -- Investigate Magazine -- but that's what I saw.

192 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:43:52pm

re: #190 Guanxi88

It's just a flash update. Run it already.

193 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:44:22pm

re: #149 hebrewtoyou

i doubt they would be protected by the whistle blower law in the uk after indiscrinimatory release of emails and the ilegal methods of obtaining the information.

While the environment is mentioned as a qualifying disclosure... it is there for employees of Pharma and Industrial firms accused of polluting or under reporting of environmental data about their own companies impacts.

Qualifying Disclosures

Certain kinds of disclosures qualify for protection ("qualifying disclosures"). Qualifying disclosures are disclosures of information which the worker reasonably believes tend to show one or more of the following matters is either happening now, took place in the past, or is likely to happen in the future :

* a criminal offence;
* the breach of a legal obligation;
* a miscarriage of justice;
* a danger to the health or safety of any individual;
* damage to the environment; or
* deliberate covering up of information tending to show any of the above five matters.

194 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:44:29pm

re: #182 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Chicken, I bet you still use condoms too.

///

You may thinks she's just your gal, but she may be EVERYONE'S Pal!

PROPHYLAXIS PREVENTS VENEREAL DISEASE!

195 Guanxi88  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:44:55pm

re: #192 cliffster

It's just a flash update. Run it already.

I lost a whole accounting department the last time I updated my "McAGEE antivirus software" I'm more careful now.

196 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:45:10pm

re: #193 wozzablog

I would assume this could be argued as relating to the environment. IANAL, however -- but my girlfriend is. :)

197 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:45:18pm

re: #191 hebrewtoyou

I saw that information here. I don't know ANYTHING about the source -- Investigate Magazine -- but that's what I saw.

You do realize that it would be a serious crime in itself to report a break-in and theft, if it weren't true? Do you think the whole university is in on it, including the web security department? Because they would all be involved by now.

198 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #170 Gus 802

What happens if you obtain evidence illegally and try to present it in court?

That opens a can of worms. The police, of course, are severely constrained from doing such things, and any evidence they obtain without following proper procedures will get tossed.

Private citizens, however, aren't bound by such constraints when it comes to evidence collection. That doesn't make this particular action any less illegal, but it may allow the material to be presented outside the normal requirements for warrants and so forth.

However, all those constraints imposed on the police are there for a reason. And a lot of those reasons orbit around procedures for ensuring that the evidence obtained is not compromised, altered, removed or added to in any way. Here, the material has passed through an unknown number of unknown hands, and the potential for alteration looms large.

Any damage, however, isn't going to be inflicted through lawsuits.

199 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #190 Guanxi88

I know, it's a very misleading file name.

200 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:46:39pm

re: #197 Charles

Absolutely. But judging by the content of this leak there could be lots of legal consequences involved all around. All I know is that Phil Jones doesn't seem like the most reliable person on the planet right now.

201 Bagua  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:46:46pm

Before we consider if any of the wording is meaningful, do we have confirmation that they are real and not little catch phrases inserted in the emails?

202 filetandrelease  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:47:05pm

re: #117 Charles

"Nice try?" What is that supposed to mean? I'm not "trying" anything -- I'm pointing out the simple fact that whoever broke into the email server committed a serious crime, and when they're caught they will certainly be prosecuted for it.

They didn't mess around with the guy who hacked Palins account.

203 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:48:10pm

No matter what legal, institutional, or moral rights you have, when you commit something to electrons it can circle the world while your finger is on "Enter".

We could call this the "Prejean Principle".

204 Bagua  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:48:37pm

It is also valid to consider that someone who commits a criminal data breach would likely not be above committing fraud, crime is crime.

205 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #204 Bagua

Very true.

206 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:49:46pm

re: #195 Guanxi88

I lost a whole accounting department the last time I updated my "McAGEE antivirus software" I'm more careful now.

I used to have a friend named Ray
Who walked that evil way
He cursed and drank and broke his neighbor's fence
You know Ray was full aware
That some sheep were over there
And he knew them in the Biblical sense.

God messed him up
He went and messed Ray up
Went and paid him back for all his wicked sins.
He messed him up
Messed that boy completely up
Now he's married to a Presbyterian

207 StillAMarine  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:51:28pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

As always, for those who want to look more closely at the actual science:

The Discovery of Global Warming

/hat tip: freetoken

Sharmuta and Freetoken's link here is very worth while perusing.

208 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:51:46pm

re: #196 hebrewtoyou

uk law is complicated - and the realms of that exception are pretty well founded as what i outlined. Reporting of specific polution events from industry.

209 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:52:43pm

re: #185 charlesincharge

The data are the data. It should be reported as collected. Then you can prove the collection of the data was incorrect or the data has been corrupted in some way.Or you can explain why the data seems contrary to your hypothesis (ie El Nino, La Nina). You should not "correct" or "clean up" or "trick" the data.

Actually, it is quite rare to present raw data in scientific papers. It has normally undergone extensive filtering prior to publication. This is true in all fields, not just climatology. Cutting edge science is hard, and the phenomena it attempts to measure are often subtle and near the limits of detection, polluted with noise, spurious instrument glitches and other factors. This is especially true in large scale statistical studies, like those collect in epidemiological studies for example.

210 Achilles Tang  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:53:17pm

re: #7 ckb

I think you've underestimated the content of these files. I've read quite a bit of it now, and these men, supposed "professors" and "scientists" are instead totally focused on politics. Their main focus is not science, but public perception. They do not talk about the data, but how good the data looks. And their correspondence among themselves contradicts the attitudes of their publications.

They should all be ashamed.

You haven't had much contact with scientists, until reading quite a bit of thousands of these emails, have you?

As to data, bad data looks bad and good data looks good. Your data looks bad, but hey, that is just my impression.

211 hebrewtoyou  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:53:34pm

re: #209 SixDegrees

I think some of the complaints were from reviewers like Steve McIntyre who requested data that was used in a paper and was denied. But I may be misinterpreting...

212 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:53:51pm

re: #148 SixDegrees

re:

213 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:54:55pm

Decision tree on these emails:

Access to email:
The email hacking is a crime. Prosecute those who committed the crime to the fullest extent of the law.

Email verification:
Are the emails circulating unedited and accurate? There's some reports that they are apparently genuine. That lends credence to the accuracy of their contents.

Email contents:
What exactly do they say? I can't vouch for what exactly is meant by tricking the information - and while tricking can connote legitimate means to obtain as much information from a given process as possible, it could also lead to altering the data in such a way as to bring it into question.

Underlying data:
What does the underlying data have to say? Can we still trust the underlying data, which is information relied upon not only at this institution but elsewhere in the world when compiling statistics and papers and the like. If the data was corrupted by unethical conduct, then analysis of that data can likewise be corrupted and inaccurate.

I'm most concerned about the accuracy of the data and making sure that whatever is going on there is not affecting the underlying data.

As to whether the data should be freely available, it's my opinion that it should be made freely available so that independent analysis can be conducted - verifying or refuting claims on both sides of the debate.

214 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:54:57pm

Given where the zip was originally posted I would not be shocked if it was a Russian hacker, in which case there will be no repercussions whatsoever.

Medvedev last week suddenly warned of a climate catastrophe. This after Putin (the puppet master) shrugged off AGW for years.

This is not a new Russia. It is the old one that likes to straddle controversy and then extort concessions out of the US and Europe. Perhaps they see the Iranian concession stand running out of juice and need a new one.

Anyway, creating chaos in the opponent's backfield is something Russia does. Kremlinology 101.

All the same, nothing in the data and emails is remarkable except things like gloating over the death of a skeptic and the FOI crap. CO2 still reflects infrared. We still are adding CO2 to the atmosphere each and every day.

215 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:55:10pm

re: #202 filetandrelease

They didn't mess around with the guy who hacked Palins account.

Actually, he's facing several serious felony charges, last I heard.

216 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:55:23pm

re: #148 SixDegrees

In what country SixDegrees? The Internets is a big place. Strictly speaking Email is more like a post card than a sealed envelope. So far we're dealing with servers in the UK. Beyond that, what proof do you have that this was an actual hack?

Also, can we agree that fraud on the taxpayers dime is a more serious crime? I believe that one is a little more cut and dry legally across most countries than hax0ring, and some of the email do contain some heavy discussions about dodging various FOIA requests.

Again, nothing to do with the science. Yet.

217 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:56:12pm

re: #216 saik0max0r

And By Proof I mean IDS logs, ip accounting information, Netflow data, etc.

218 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:58:09pm

re: #209 SixDegrees

Actually, it is quite rare to present raw data in scientific papers. It has normally undergone extensive filtering prior to publication. This is true in all fields, not just climatology.

He's right. I'm always trying to read medical journals to keep up with my heart problem. The language I've learned to understand (mostly), but the numbers are especially hard. It's tabulated, organized and looks really good on paper, but the average guy with a history degree (ME!) has no idea how they got that way.

219 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:58:25pm

re: #213 lawhawk

It's difficult to get away with corrupt data in science because of peer review. Even if this groups data was fudged, the rest of the scientific community would catch it. Science is self-correcting in this regard.

220 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:58:57pm

re: #217 saik0max0r

And By Proof I mean IDS logs, ip accounting information, Netflow data, etc.

Good grief.

How would anyone except the university's IT department be able to show you that level of "proof?"

There is a police investigation under way and an official statement from the university that their servers were broken into. Most people would consider that sufficient "proof."

221 Diane  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 12:59:02pm

re: #60 MrSilverDragon

Your comment is interesting. I work with seniors with intellectual disabilities, Alzheimer, dementia, brain degeneration... One of the patients is a 62 years old ex-psychiatrist who became ill 5 years ago. Today, he walks the corridors sometimes with one shoe, he looks at objects and people with what appears to be great focus, as if there is something to be understood. He has not lost his interest in observation, I imagined that he must have been good at his job.

222 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:01:27pm

re: #219 Sharmuta

Eventually, you are correct. Science will always win. Unfortunately, in the interim, a lot of damage can will occur.


/makes popcorn

223 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:01:58pm

re: #216 saik0max0r

In what country SixDegrees? The Internets is a big place. Strictly speaking Email is more like a post card than a sealed envelope. So far we're dealing with servers in the UK. Beyond that, what proof do you have that this was an actual hack?

Also, can we agree that fraud on the taxpayers dime is a more serious crime? I believe that one is a little more cut and dry legally across most countries than hax0ring, and some of the email do contain some heavy discussions about dodging various FOIA requests.

Again, nothing to do with the science. Yet.

You began by stating that the crime involved here was not a crime. It is, in every country on earth. You went on to say that it might not be a crime if it revealed other crimes. This is patent nonsense. If I gun down a man in the street who is found to be carrying a hand-written letter confessing to the murder of Jimmy Hoffa, I'm still going to be be charged with murder. This, too, is how things work worldwide.

224 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:03:04pm

re: #213 lawhawk

If anything comes of this I hope it is that all sources and methods are made public at all times. A new paradigm for research. As a matter of intellectual property much in scientific research does not get revealed to all. People rightly want to protect what are proprietary advantages that bring them and their institutions esteem.

If the planet is at risk then maintaining the ability to keep some information private is a luxury that no one can afford. If we are being asked to commit to a global effort then there should be nothing anywhere that is kept out of public view.

Make FOI requests obsolete. Make all climate research transparent. There should be nothing to hide and a few more nontroversies would come out but people would soon realize there is no there there.

225 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:03:09pm

re: #218 SteveC

He's right. I'm always trying to read medical journals to keep up with my heart problem. The language I've learned to understand (mostly), but the numbers are especially hard. It's tabulated, organized and looks really good on paper, but the average guy with a history degree (ME!) has no idea how they got that way.

In the end, our lack of specialized knowledge and language means that even educated people have to take most of science on "faith". It bothers me that I will never be equipped to rationally choose a brain or heart surgeon. The trick is to develop a strategy for weeding out the more obvious duds.

226 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:04:21pm

re: #219 Sharmuta

It's difficult to get away with corrupt data in science because of peer review. Even if this groups data was fudged, the rest of the scientific community would catch it. Science is self-correcting in this regard.

Oh you are so naive! Don't you see how far this conspiracy reaches??
///

227 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:06:54pm

re: #219 Sharmuta

It's difficult to get away with corrupt data in science because of peer review. Even if this groups data was fudged, the rest of the scientific community would catch it. Science is self-correcting in this regard.

If peer review were expanded to universal / open source review then there would be no more controversies and we could move on.

One function that peer review serves is to allow some sources/methods to remain proprietary to the people who created them so that they can retain that intellectual property / proprietary advantage.

Just as the US government does not allow one to patent anything related to nuclear armaments so too should intellectual property rights be abandoned regarding climate change and climate change research, IMO.

228 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:07:25pm

OT

Gang 'killed victims to extract their fat'

A Peruvian gang that allegedly killed people and drained fat from their corpses for use in cosmetics may have been inspired by a grisly Andean legend.

Hilarió Cudeña Simon, the alleged ringleader, linked the crimes to tales of demonic assassins, known as Pishtacos, who purportedly waylaid victims in pre-Colombian times, police said.

Peru reacted with revulsion and horror to reports that scores of peasants may have been butchered by the gang, which was said to have operated in Huánuco, a rural province dotted with Inca temples between the jungle and Andean peaks.

Colonel Jorge Mejia, chief of Peru's anti-kidnapping police, said Cudeña and three other suspects were in custody and that another seven gang members were being hunted.

The jailed men have confessed to killing five people, but police suspect the number of victims is far higher, with 60 people reported missing in Huánuco this year alone. Two of the suspects were arrested at a bus station in the capital, Lima, carrying bottles of liquid fat which they claimed were worth up to £36,000 a gallon.

At a news conference police displayed two bottles of fat, which laboratory tests confirmed were human. "The fat was extracted from the thorax and thighs," said Eusebio Felix Murga, chief of police of Dirincri district. Police also showed a photo of the rotting head of a 27-year-old male victim discovered last month in a coca-growing valley.

229 J.S.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #223 SixDegrees

Breaking into a computer is (clearly) illegal and a crime -- it's (in most countries, I believe) like that of "break and enter". The added feature, though, is that hackers typically copy the material...so, the material is not "stolen" in the traditional sense with material goods (ie, if someone breaks and enters your house and steals your watch, you're missing your watch -- in a hacker crime, the person has obtained material that doesn't belong to him, yet the original owner, typically, still possesses it...) Sometimes the crime (the computer hack) isn't initially known (the IT people may not initially recognize their security has been breached), until confidential material suddenly becomes available to unauthorized parties...(then, the police are called in, etc.)

230 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:09:11pm

re: #74 bosforus

This might be a good thread to discuss the difference between hacking and cracking. As I understand it, hacking is the manipulation of data for an alternate use from its intended use but it is not illegal. Cracking, on the other hand, is the illegal breaching of a software/hardware's security measures to obtain information. Colloquially, I believe the word "hacking" has become what "cracking" really is.

We can expound further, Hacking can be illegal, but not done with malicious intent. You can also use "White Hat", "Grey Hat", and "Black Hat" for hackers, Hackers are usually White Hat but can be Grey Hat, Crackers are usually Black Hat but can be Grey Hat. Think of Hackers as Rangers who must be Non Evil, and Thieves who must be Non Good in Dungeons and Dragons. The cracking of Palin's was actually Grey Hat, Same with this email crack. So it could have been done by hackers or crackers. :)

oh and you're right, Hacking != Cracking, despite the best efforts of the media to misuse the former and ignore the latter.

231 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:09:32pm

re: #227 karmic_inquisitor

If peer review were expanded to universal / open source review then there would be no more controversies and we could move on.

One function that peer review serves is to allow some sources/methods to remain proprietary to the people who created them so that they can retain that intellectual property / proprietary advantage.

Just as the US government does not allow one to patent anything related to nuclear armaments so too should intellectual property rights be abandoned regarding climate change and climate change research, IMO.

That may be a bit of an extreme solution. Another approach would be to insist on duplication by an independent group, or perhaps more than one, before results are accepted as validated.

232 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:10:08pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

In the end, our lack of specialized knowledge and language means that even educated people have to take most of science on "faith". It bothers me that I will never be equipped to rationally choose a brain or heart surgeon. The trick is to develop a strategy for weeding out the more obvious duds.

SteveC's rule of thumb in selecting a surgeon: Go with experience. The guy who has done 500 procedures is worth a lot more than the one who has done 50.

The surgeon who did my 3rd surgery was a workaholic who averaged 1200 heart surgeries a year... and when they opened me up, scar tissue torn and blood went everywhere. My Cardiologist told me later that Dr. Pacifico was almost in over his head, and any other surgeon would have lost me.

Always go with experience.

233 Sharmuta  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:10:17pm

re: #230 bloodstar

Crackers are usually Black Hat but can be Grey Hat.

Racist!1! ///

234 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:10:35pm

I'm not going to pretend to understand the underlying science. However, this is yet another great example of why when sending out emails one should assume that every single one may end up being read out loud in a court of law. Those breezy 6 pm-on-a-Friday one-liners can take on terrifying new dimensions with the power of hindsight.

235 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:11:00pm

re: #220 Charles

There is a police investigation under way and an official statement from the university that their servers were broken into. Most people would consider that sufficient "proof."

Fine, I'll concede this for the sake of argument, as long as you concede the fact that the conversations in the email regarding dodging deleting emails, putting pressure on editors and cherry picking are pretty shady if not criminal for what's supposed to be a scientific body working in the public interest.

If we can agree on that, let's stop shooting the messenger.

236 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:13:45pm

re: #235 saik0max0r

There is a police investigation under way and an official statement from the university that their servers were broken into. Most people would consider that sufficient "proof."

Fine, I'll concede this for the sake of argument, as long as you concede the fact that the conversations in the email regarding dodging deleting emails, putting pressure on editors and cherry picking are pretty shady if not criminal for what's supposed to be a scientific body working in the public interest.

If we can agree on that, let's stop shooting the messenger.

I don't think the contents of the material can be trusted in any way at this point without further validation. As things now stand, there is no guarantee they haven't been altered or edited in some way.

237 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:13:46pm

OT

Oh jeez. CNN reports about Kirk Cameron and Ray Comforts recent crusade against evolution and Charles Darwin. You can see the cultists passing out books like Moonies.

Added On November 20, 2009
Former teen idol Kirk Cameron is on a crusade to debunk evolution. CNN's Carol Costello reports.

238 SeaMonkey  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:14:09pm

I'm starting to agree with the deniers: why change our behavior when it's a waste of energy? You can decline your plastic bag in the checkout line and walk two blocks to see your neighbor instead of powering up the SUV, but that won't stop China from building six more coal-fired power plants. The problem is the developing is developing and and the developed world is reading Sarah Palin's new book on their Kindles. We're all screwed: party on!

239 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:14:18pm

re: #235 saik0max0r

Fine, I'll concede this for the sake of argument, as long as you concede the fact that the conversations in the email regarding dodging deleting emails, putting pressure on editors and cherry picking are pretty shady if not criminal for what's supposed to be a scientific body working in the public interest.

No, I don't agree and I'm not conceding any of that. I don't know the full context for the discussions about deleting emails, and I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that it was "shady," sorry. As for putting pressure on editors, welcome to the real world where people put pressure on other people. And I didn't see any evidence at all of "cherry picking."

240 Buck  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:14:52pm

If it had been me, I would have rewritten all of it to make it seem like it came from a AGW skeptic. Then when the AGW crowd went nuts that the big bad oil financed skeptics were talking about tricks that hides the increase...

There would be no excusing the wording, it would be the proof they need to confirm the conspiracy.


I would only then release the real stuff.

And see the reaction.

241 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:15:18pm

re: #234 Diamond Bullet

I'm not going to pretend to understand the underlying science. However, this is yet another great example of why when sending out emails one should assume that every single one may end up being read out loud in a court of law. Those breezy 6 pm-on-a-Friday one-liners can take on terrifying new dimensions with the power of hindsight.

We have reached the age when no picture taken is private, no email sent is private, no conversation is private. Privacy now means "nobody else involved."

Teens need to know this. I have seen at least two sets of photos on Facebook--for teenage relatives-- that my first thought was: "Do you want a job interviewer to see this? Seriously?"

242 Pythagoras  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:15:25pm

re: #236 SixDegrees

I don't think the contents of the material can be trusted in any way at this point without further validation. As things now stand, there is no guarantee they haven't been altered or edited in some way.

On this, I think everyone can agree.

243 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:15:34pm

re: #228 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT

Gang 'killed victims to extract their fat'

I heard this story this morning. Giant "Ewww!" factor.

If I ever go for liposuction, I want my cut of the $15,000 per quart my fat is worth to the cosmetic companies.

244 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:16:06pm

re: #243 SixDegrees

I heard this story this morning. Giant "Ewww!" factor.

If I ever go for liposuction, I want my cut of the $15,000 per quart my fat is worth to the cosmetic companies.

I'M RICH!

245 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:17:08pm

My personal take on all of this remains as follows:

Whatever the nontroversy of the day/hour/nanosecond, AGW hysteria is far more likely to ruin civilization than AGW is to destroy the world.

The planet will self-regulate, and inasmuch as it doesn't, we will adapt.

I'm far more frightened of people making five-, ten-, or twenty-year plans for all of us to live by.

And when it comes to people telling me everything I'm going to have to do, stop doing, and sacrifice for the sake of a very probably futile attempt to appease the climate gods, two words: you first.

And by "you" I mean Al Gore.

246 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:18:32pm

re: #230 bloodstar

D&D references do not compute in my brain. :) But everything else you said I understood. Thank you for that!

247 m0rtaar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:18:35pm

re: #117 Charles

"...and when they're caught they will certainly be prosecuted for it."

If caught.

If this guy is smart, s/he will never be caught. It doesn't sound like the guys at CRU are very adept at network security, and the attacker would have several channels by which to take the data without getting caught.

If an inside job, the attacker could very easily clean up the audit trail and remove any incriminating evidence. If an outside job, the attacker could have gone through a proxy to do the attack.

I personally think it was an inside job, so I highly doubt CRU will be able to trace said attacker. Most large systems only record anomalies that happen inside a system, not regular Read requests. Otherwise audit logs would blow out the storage. This attacker probably grabbed the data much earlier, so even short-span logs would have overwritten the log data.

What you're saying may be true, but I think it's a long shot that the intruder will ever be found.

248 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:19:00pm

re: #243 SixDegrees

I heard this story this morning. Giant "Ewww!" factor.

If I ever go for liposuction, I want my cut of the $15,000 per quart my fat is worth to the cosmetic companies.

They can use that liposuction fat to create stem cells too!

249 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:20:46pm

re: #223 SixDegrees

You began by stating that the crime involved here was not a crime. It is, in every country on earth. You went on to say that it might not be a crime if it revealed other crimes. This is patent nonsense. If I gun down a man in the street who is found to be carrying a hand-written letter confessing to the murder of Jimmy Hoffa, I'm still going to be be charged with murder. This, too, is how things work worldwide.

With all due respect, you have no idea how this package was assembled or by whom. If the CIA did this to a foreign power would it be a "crime?" If an insider complied it as part of a well meaning attempt to comply with a FOIA request, and accidentally left it on an anon FTP server would it be a crime?

I never said it might not be a "crime"(if it was in fact an illegal entry) if it revealed other crimes. I simply said it was small potatoes in comparison to the greater crime: That being collusion to circumvent FOIA laws, and discussing ways to keep the grant gravy flowin'.

250 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:20:55pm

re: #247 m0rtaar

People who perpetrate these kinds of break-ins are caught more often than you think.

251 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:21:24pm

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

More details here

252 m0rtaar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:21:28pm

re: #146 Ben Hur

... And never, EVER bet a Sicilian... when DEATH IS ON THE LINE.

...

*COUGH* *COUGH*

...

*THUMP*

253 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:21:49pm

re: #250 Charles

People who perpetrate these kinds of break-ins are caught more often than you think.

Case in point.

254 lawhawk  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:21:49pm

re: #248 SteveC

Speaking of stem cells, a French team has found a way to use embryonic stem cells to create new skin that doesn't suffer from problems of other skin patches - often used on burn patients and others who need to have skin grafts.

That's a significant breakthrough for embryonic stem cells; many other stem cell breakthroughs have been with adult stem cells. This may signify that the scientists and researchers have overcome some of the problems previously encountered with tumor growth.

255 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:22:02pm

re: #245 Cato the Elder

My personal take on all of this remains as follows:

Whatever the nontroversy of the day/hour/nanosecond, AGW hysteria is far more likely to ruin civilization than AGW is to destroy the world.

The planet will self-regulate, and inasmuch as it doesn't, we will adapt.

I'm far more frightened of people making five-, ten-, or twenty-year plans for all of us to live by.

And when it comes to people telling me everything I'm going to have to do, stop doing, and sacrifice for the sake of a very probably futile attempt to appease the climate gods, two words: you first.

And by "you" I mean Al Gore.

FWIW, I think you are inferring some false choices in all of that.

We don't have to hand people the power to make choices for us.

A technological society needs energy. Energy from fossil fuels puts CO2 in the atmosphere. Regardless of how sensitive the planet is to CO2, altering the composition of the atmosphere radically over decades will lead to consequences that are hard to predict with certainty, but general assertions are supportable.

Why not move to energy production that doesn't produce CO2.

Nuclear power.

Preserve choices. Preserve the atmosphere.

256 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:23:24pm

re: #239 Charles


So you're willing to jump to the conclusion that this was a "illegal haz0r hack" while at the same time, you won't even bother reading the contents of the package, and will take Gavin's word on blind faith that everything is kosher?

Did I get that right?

257 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:23:31pm

re: #245 Cato the Elder

(snip)
The planet will self-regulate, and inasmuch as it doesn't, we will adapt.

I'm far more frightened of people making five-, ten-, or twenty-year plans for all of us to live by.

(snip)

I agree, unless you are making a case for inaction. We can adapt pretty well to a gradual change. If the planet self-regulates rapidly, we might not like its methods. By getting decent science and decent policies, we gain a vote.

258 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:23:48pm

re: #249 saik0max0r

Hearsay. Why don't you download all of the emails and attachments, read every single line of the email exchanges, and then come back to us.

259 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:23:58pm

re: #244 Emmmieg

I'M RICH!

Speaking of trimming the fat, wasn't al-Megrahi released 3 months ago on compassionate grounds by Scotland because he only had...3 months to live?

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Rosemary Wolfe, the president of Justice for Pan Am 103, which represents families of the 270 people who died, and who opposed the release, said: "It does not surprise me that he is alive and well. It was a major mistake for the Scots to let him go. It is just horrible."

260 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:24:03pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

How quickly they turn on her.

261 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:24:46pm

re: #258 Gus 802

Hearsay. Why don't you download all of the emails and attachments, read every single line of the email exchanges, and then come back to us.

Take a look at that health care bill while you are at it!

262 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:25:34pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

More details here

Lookit that. Caribou Barbie has a rock-star bus with her botoxed phiz on the side and her authentic signature.

How many different shades of rouge in the powder room, I wonder?

263 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:25:41pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

[Video]More details here

The article is somewhat inaccurate..It says people stood outside all day in the rain.. No.. there were people that spent the prior night waiting and camping out...Jeez..To met Palin? How stupid is that?

264 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:26:00pm

re: #260 Charles
They don't call it an angry mob for nothing.

265 Pepper Fox  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:26:02pm

re: #237 Gus 802

OT

Oh jeez. CNN reports about Kirk Cameron and Ray Comforts recent crusade against evolution and Charles Darwin. You can see the cultists passing out books like Moonies.

Added On November 20, 2009
Former teen idol Kirk Cameron is on a crusade to debunk evolution. CNN's Carol Costello reports.

I don't wanna be a dick and emulate them by handing out bibles with disclaimers on them, but I would at least like to return the favor and give them on in trade if I am handed one. I just wanna see the look on their faces.

266 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:26:03pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

[Video]More details here

She seems to have a very poor understanding of crowd management. She's manage to piss off others through her rigid exclusionary rules she enforces at nearly all of her public appearances - they not only refuse to allow reporters in, but attempt to screen out "opposition," although how such a determination is made remains opaque. It has apparently screened out a number of (formerly) loyal supporters.

Not a good strategy. The public is fickle.

267 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:26:46pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

More details here

‘Quittin’ on the job!’

/

268 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:27:13pm

re: #258 Gus 802

I already have them indexed in solr. Want an href?

269 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:27:20pm

re: #263 HoosierHoops

There also some dispute about how many people didn't get their books signed. some reports say a few dozen others say 300.

270 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:27:33pm

re: #256 saik0max0r

So you're willing to jump to the conclusion that this was a "illegal haz0r hack" while at the same time, you won't even bother reading the contents of the package, and will take Gavin's word on blind faith that everything is kosher?

Did I get that right?

No, you didn't get that right, either. I'm accepting the university's official statement that their server was broken into, not "jumping to a conclusion."

The one jumping to conclusions is you, when you say I "won't even bother reading" the emails. I've been doing exactly that, as I already wrote in this thread.

271 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:27:58pm

Well, I am going to make my own personal contribution to Global Warming by cooking some dinner!

I have a large table if anyone wants some. Just use the secret knock and show your LGF pass at the door.

272 Pepper Fox  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:28:16pm

Remember that 10 year old who wouldn't stand for the pledge because he believed there wasn't liberty and justice for all? John Stewart enlisted pro-wrestler Mick Foley to protect him.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

273 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:28:33pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day...
Angry Crowd Shouts at Sarah Palin Book Signing Tour Noblesville, IN

More details here

like the Nirvana fans screaming for Cobain to "jump!"...when he climbed the sound towers during his famous on stage breakdown..you never know who your friends are

274 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:29:00pm

re: #268 saik0max0r

I already have them indexed in solr. Want an href?

If you post a link to stolen material here, I'll delete it and block your account.

275 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:29:52pm

re: #265 Pepper Fox

I don't wanna be a dick and emulate them by handing out bibles with disclaimers on them, but I would at least like to return the favor and give them on in trade if I am handed one. I just wanna see the look on their faces.

Heh. I'd start by removing the introduction - Genesis.

276 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:31:38pm

re: #257 Decatur Deb

I agree, unless you are making a case for inaction. We can adapt pretty well to a gradual change. If the planet self-regulates rapidly, we might not like its methods. By getting decent science and decent policies, we gain a vote.

we can't adapt to sulfuric acid rain

If left unchecked this thing will necessarily lead to the extinction of the human race unless we find a way to keep a few thousand of us alive under domes or underground or something like that.

277 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:32:18pm

re: #237 Gus 802

OT

Oh jeez. CNN reports about Kirk Cameron and Ray Comforts recent crusade against evolution and Charles Darwin. You can see the cultists passing out books like Moonies.

Added On November 20, 2009
Former teen idol Kirk Cameron is on a crusade to debunk evolution. CNN's Carol Costello reports.

It's truly sickening. They edit Darwin's book to make Darwin look bad by removing much of his evidence, and then hold up the resultant forgery as proof that Evolution is wrong. I hope they enjoy Hell, because that where unrepentant fraudsters are consigned.

278 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:33:03pm

re: #264 Killgore Trout

They don't call it an angry mob for nothing.

that's just hearty expression...ever been to a college football game, are they an angry mob too?

279 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:34:09pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

There also some dispute about how many people didn't get their books signed. some reports say a few dozen others say 300.

When i woke up and turned on the local news that had reporters on the scene showing all the campers that had spent the night in line.. I thought...mmm..I didn't know Sarah was showing up this morning...Then the reporter said she'll be here at 6pm.. I busted up laughing and almost spilled my coffee..

280 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:34:11pm

re: #270 Charles

Only post I see from you on the contents of the mail is a related to "groupthink"

If you focus on just Phil Jones' authored correspondence, It should at least give you the creeps.

281 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:35:38pm

re: #268 saik0max0r

I already have them indexed in solr. Want an href?

The you can play judge, jury and executioner along with your unbiased opinion at your very own blog. Until now all of these assumptions are based on unhinged cursory readings as indicated in the original text of this article.

My guess is that there isn't much here. They will take the emails out of context and going even further the blogged summaries such as those at Watts Up With That will be taken out of context. This will be compressed into one easy soundbyte.

Frankly, I think this will backfire.

282 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #275 SixDegrees

Heh. I'd start by removing the introduction - Genesis.

Don't do that. It's one thing to put a "disclaimer" sticker on the Bible, its another to edit out whole books therein to make a point). That's the sort of thing the creationists do, and we're better than that.

283 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:36:06pm

re: #274 Charles

FWIW, I wasn't planning on posting it here, but you've as much admitted you have a copy yourself already. Let's not make this personal.

284 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:37:13pm

re: #280 saik0max0r

Knock it off smartass. If you keep insulting Charles like that, I can promise you that you will not like what happens,

285 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:37:37pm

re: #276 Conservative Moonbat

we can't adapt to sulfuric acid rain

If left unchecked this thing will necessarily lead to the extinction of the human race unless we find a way to keep a few thousand of us alive under domes or underground or something like that.

My idea of adaptation would include needed re-balancing energy sources. What I haven't heard yet, is the likelihood of sudden (decades) over gradual (centuries) for the onset of uncontrollable effects. (Grew up in Pittsburgh in the 40s--no friend of air pollution.)

286 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:38:34pm

re: #281 Gus 802

The you can play judge, jury and executioner along with your unbiased opinion at your very own blog. Until now all of these assumptions are based on unhinged cursory readings as indicated in the original text of this article.

My guess is that there isn't much here. They will take the emails out of context and going even further the blogged summaries such as those at Watts Up With That will be taken out of context. This will be compressed into one easy soundbyte.

Frankly, I think this will backfire.

There's also the already mentioned problem that nothing in the contents of this information can be viewed as valid at this point.

287 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:39:59pm

re: #284 Dark_Falcon

Thank You Mr. Internet Tough Guy. You are so bad ass and macho. I am in awe of urr mad debating skillz.

288 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:40:13pm

re: #286 SixDegrees

There's also the already mentioned problem that nothing in the contents of this information can be viewed as valid at this point.

That's right -- it's stolen, and a person who would steal is also a person who would alter and fake information.

289 shutdown  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:41:24pm

Reading this thread, i feel like I showed up late to Thanksgiving dinner; Uncle Bob has already resumed his fight with Cousin Harry (carried over from last Christmas), Aunt Harriet is quietly drunk, Mom somewhat less quietly so, and the teenagers have gone upstairs to smoke a joint. Meanwhile, hot sister-in-law Christine is in the kitchen with the twin brother who is not her husband, allegedly starting to carve the turkey.

Good times.

290 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:41:44pm

re: #287 saik0max0r

Thank You Mr. Internet Tough Guy. You are so bad ass and macho. I am in awe of urr mad debating skillz.

Regardless of your arguements, I can see before all else, that you sir, are a complete and utter douchebag.

291 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:42:04pm

re: #274 Charles

Absentmindedly, I posted the links to the ftp sites in the Overnight Fauna thread in this comment. Though they are not direct links to the zip files would you kindly delete that comment and this current comment if you feel it necessary. Por favor do not block my account. I'd appreciate it.

292 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:42:35pm

re: #289 imp_62

Mmmm..Turfuken

293 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:42:38pm

re: #287 saik0max0r

Thank You Mr. Internet Tough Guy. You are so bad ass and macho. I am in awe of urr mad debating skillz.

It's been nice painful knowin' ya

294 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:42:42pm

re: #253 SixDegrees

Case in point.

They did it for the LULZ. As the article pointed out, they were pulling a prank, then got pissed off and made it a more serious prank after:

they contacted Comcast's original technical contact at his home number to tell him what they'd done (which was change the email address and the real mail address on the webpage). It was only when the Comcast manager scoffed at their claim and hung up on them that EBK said it was decided to take the more drastic measure of redirecting the site's traffic to servers under the hackers' control.

The sad part is, they're probably going to get jail time for this in order to show people how serious this is. meanwhile the actual black hats have tools to conduct man in the middle attacks on SSL sites as this demonstration points out a real world example using twitter and I'm willing to best most people haven't heard about the vulnerabilities to https, even as they do their online banking and bill pays

295 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:43:36pm

From the BBC

The CRU has been repeatedly asked to publish the entire data set from which it compiled an important grid-based record of global temperatures.

It says it will publish full details when it has clearance from all the world's meteorological offices whose permission is needed.

But speaking to my source at the CRU, it is also clear that the unit has been dragged down by what it considers to be nit-picking and unreasonable demands for data - and that there is personal animus against their intellectual rivals.

Now this sort of hostility is nothing new in academia - but the revelations come at a sensitive time as the world's nations gather for the climate meeting in Copenhagen.

My CRU source points out that its unpublished full data set is almost identical to the ones at the National Climatic Data Center and the Goddard Institute of Space Studies.

Both of these are in the US, where there are no restrictions on publication. The CRU view is that when the sceptics see the full data in due course they will be very disappointed.

The scientific establishment is likely to support the CRU. Despite continuing uncertainties in some areas of climate science, they say officially that their overall confidence that humans are warming the climate is now more than 90%.

One leading figure told me unofficially that confidence was now at 99%.

So just publish the data and move on. take the hits from anyone who claims their property rights were somehow violated. Or get a law passed allowing the publication without permission.

Then there will be nothing for the hard core deniers to hang a hat on. No hidden data. No hidden methods.

296 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:44:14pm

re: #287 saik0max0r

Thank You Mr. Internet Tough Guy. You are so bad ass and macho. I am in awe of urr mad debating skillz.

Well for someone asking Charles not to make this personal..You sure as hell jumped the Shark...Anything you ever post here will be shredded by me..
You big skilled debater.. You are toast pal...

297 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:44:22pm

re: #290 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I would like to thank all the little people. :-)

Your text to link...

298 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:45:22pm

re: #297 saik0max0r

I would like to thank all the little people. :-)

Your text to link...

LOL!

This one know you!

299 shutdown  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:45:52pm

re: #297 saik0max0r

I would like to thank all the little people. :-)

Your text to link...

Repeat after me, people:

You must never click links posted by angry folks

300 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:46:35pm

re: #291 bosforus

Absentmindedly, I posted the links to the ftp sites in the Overnight Fauna thread in this comment. Though they are not direct links to the zip files would you kindly delete that comment and this current comment if you feel it necessary. Por favor do not block my account. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks -- it's deleted. I don't want LGF to be used to circulate files that were obtained illegally.

301 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:46:42pm

re: #287 saik0max0r

Thank You Mr. Internet Tough Guy. You are so bad ass and macho. I am in awe of urr mad debating skillz.

Nice snark. I wasn't trying to debate you, I was warning you. I've seen quite a few people take that same snarky tone with Charles and it normally ends with him getting tired of being insulted on his own blog and banning the smartass. It's your account, and I can't stop you if you want to lose it. But I am warning you of one of the ways accounts are lost. What you do with that warning is up to you.

302 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:47:33pm

re: #294 bloodstar

The sad part is, they're probably going to get jail time for this in order to show people how serious this is. meanwhile the actual black hats have tools to conduct man in the middle attacks on SSL sites as this demonstration points out a real world example using twitter and I'm willing to best most people haven't heard about the vulnerabilities to https, even as they do their online banking and bill pays

Mostly agree, but I don't think it's sad that these perps may see jail time. If someone breaks into my house, I really don't care about their motivation or affiliation - it's the breaking and entering that matters, whether it's committed by thrill-seeking kids or a professional burglar working the neighborhood. Those distinctions can be sorted out at trial.

303 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:48:08pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

Nice snark. I wasn't trying to debate you, I was warning you. I've seen quite a few people take that same snarky tone with Charles and it normally ends with him getting tired of being insulted on his own blog and banning the smartass. It's your account, and I can't stop you if you want to lose it. But I am warning you of one of the ways accounts are lost. What you do with that warning is up to you.

consider MYOB...jus sayin

304 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:49:00pm
305 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:49:09pm

re: #300 Charles

Thanks -- it's deleted. I don't want LGF to be used to circulate files that were obtained illegally.

Nor do I want it to become as such.

306 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:49:47pm

re: #304 Gus 802

"Mastermind" is a bit of a stretch.

307 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:50:45pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

"Mastermind" is a bit of a stretch.

Yeah. I got that from BBC News but linked to a local ABC site. ;)

308 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:52:00pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

"Mastermind" is a bit of a stretch.

mid-level planner would be more than generous

309 Ojoe  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:52:00pm
310 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:52:42pm

re: #245 Cato the Elder

My personal take on all of this remains as follows:

Whatever the nontroversy of the day/hour/nanosecond, AGW hysteria is far more likely to ruin civilization than AGW is to destroy the world.

The planet will self-regulate, and inasmuch as it doesn't, we will adapt.

Your first statement is trite and useless-- AGW is more likely to ruin civilization than AGW-'hysteria' is-- your second statement is wrong. We are humans. We are biological entities. We cannot necessarily adapt to every possible change.

We are but earth.

311 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:54:25pm

re: #309 Ojoe

Victor Hanson on Palin: Don't count her out, basically.

I got news for Victor.. Americans don't like Quitters...She has no chance once she tries to run in the primaries...None..zip..nadda

312 Cineaste  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:54:53pm

re: #22 Athens Runaway

The court system that found OJ Simpson not guilty will be trying Khalid Sheik Mohammed, etc.

what? The california state criminal court is trying KSM? Wow, who knew?

Man people, be educated.

313 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:55:02pm

re: #297 saik0max0r

I would like to thank all the little people. :-)

Your text to link...

Try using this!

314 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:55:50pm

re: #309 Ojoe

Victor Hanson on Palin: Don't count her out, basically.

Choice quote from the article:

Palin must have at her fingertips far more elucidating answers than offered by any liberal icon — or what she showed in the 2008 campaign. If Sarah Palin thinks FDR was President in 1929, or that he could speak on non-existent TV, she is through; if Biden says that, it’s “just old Joe again.” If Obama does not know the first thing about our most prestigious medals, the language of Austria, or diplomatic protocol about presidential bowing, it’s because he is deliberately trying to be cool; if Palin did the same, she’s a buffoon hockey mom. That is the way it is, and her supporters should accept it, deal with, and overcome it.

315 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:56:27pm

re: #312 Cineaste

what? The california state criminal court is trying KSM? Wow, who knew?

Man people, be educated.

The very first motion will be a change of Venue.. Personally..I'd go for Seattle or Portland...Maybe LA.

316 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:57:31pm

re: #310 Obdicut

Your first statement is trite and useless-- AGW is more likely to ruin civilization than AGW-'hysteria' is-- your second statement is wrong. We are humans. We are biological entities. We cannot necessarily adapt to every possible change.

We are but earth.

nuh uh!..."we are star dust, we are golden"...and your first statement about his first statement is wrong, but to be polite I won't say it's trite and useless (even tho it is)

317 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:27pm

re: #311 HoosierHoops

I got news for Victor.. Americans don't like Quitters...She has no chance once she tries to run in the primaries...None..zip..nadda

remains to bee seen...I would not count out his opinions either

318 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:34pm

re: #311 HoosierHoops

I got news for Victor.. Americans don't like Quitters...She has no chance once she tries to run in the primaries...None..zip..nadda

Unfortunately, I think she stands a chance in the primaries. Or at least, she stands her best chance of prevailing there. Primaries and off-year elections heavily favor the nuts and zealots, because their obsessions drive them to the polls while others are content to sit those contests out.

In the actual election, particularly a Presidential election, though, things swing back to favor the center, and those on the margins once again find themselves...marginalized.

This is the real threat Palin poses - she may be successful in splitting the party, or of drawing votes away from candidates who actually stand a chance of winning, and force the GOP into 2012 with an entire slate of losers.

On the plus side: almost anything the GOP manages to come up with in her place will look great in comparison.

319 m0rtaar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:36pm

re: #250 Charles

Perhaps. But being a betting man I would wager that the odds are still very long on this perpetrator being caught. None of the evidence out there provided by Gartner, the Dept of Homeland Security, Forrester, et al shows a realistic chance of a good attacker being nailed.

I'm not saying s/he won't get caught, I'm saying that the odds are very long. And the public release by the CRU doesn't make me confident of their abilities in doing this.

320 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #302 SixDegrees

Mostly agree, but I don't think it's sad that these perps may see jail time. If someone breaks into my house, I really don't care about their motivation or affiliation - it's the breaking and entering that matters, whether it's committed by thrill-seeking kids or a professional burglar working the neighborhood. Those distinctions can be sorted out at trial.

I'd say their initial action would be more akin to going to a business front window and putting a cardboard cutout with a fake address and email on it on your store front window, which would take about 30 seconds for the owner to notice and remove, assuming they taped it. The follow up action was more serious and where they'll get dinged, personally I'd suggest house confinement for a few months and no computer access for a year. (which to these folks, is a MUCH more severe punishment) :)

I think the point that we all missed was that they were trying to be noticed. it's not like they were hiding what they did. In fact, I don't even think they realized that in the real world, what they did was illegal, and people would actually get angry enough at them to actually hunt them down and prosecute them. The people who are doing the really bad things are going to use Tor, going to use other proxies, going to use unsecured wireless portals, work from botnets and find other ways to obfuscate their identity, or to be really malicious, create viruses that download child porn to your computer (that last link makes me want to simply switch to linux forever).

321 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #316 albusteve

nuh uh!..."we are star dust, we are golden"...and your first statement about his first statement is wrong, but to be polite I won't say it's trite and useless (even tho it is)

Anybody that can bring in a CSN&Y song gets dings from me! LOL

322 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

Ah, Thanks for clarifying.

On the one hand, I Cannot Resist Snark... Must... Post... Moar...

But It's worth pointing out that I did not call Charles any funny names, or engage in ad hominem attacks. In fact, I asked him (snarkily of course) to clarify his position, and he did so; I didn't directly attack his motives. I'm guessing he's got a pretty thick skin, and can deal with sarcasm as long as it's not personal.

I totally understand that he doesn't want links posted to items of questionable origin on his blog, and I respect that, and the fact that he does have a copy means he can't be accused of just hopping on a bandwagon. After that, I simply asked him to take a good look at all of Phil's authored mail, as the contents are suspicious and creepy IMHO.

323 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #318 SixDegrees

Unfortunately, I think she stands a chance in the primaries. Or at least, she stands her best chance of prevailing there. Primaries and off-year elections heavily favor the nuts and zealots, because their obsessions drive them to the polls while others are content to sit those contests out.

In the actual election, particularly a Presidential election, though, things swing back to favor the center, and those on the margins once again find themselves...marginalized.

This is the real threat Palin poses - she may be successful in splitting the party, or of drawing votes away from candidates who actually stand a chance of winning, and force the GOP into 2012 with an entire slate of losers.

On the plus side: almost anything the GOP manages to come up with in her place will look great in comparison.

the problem is, who's Pete Hoekstra?

324 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:01:20pm

re: #323 albusteve

the problem is, who's Pete Hoekstra?

Yeah, there's that.

325 simoom  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:01:47pm

A while back the Lafayette County Republicans of Missouri put up this red-baiting, highway-side billboard:

[Link: www.firedupmissouri.com...]

How do you like your change now???
OBAMA-NATION!
They are coming for you. The Taxpayer.
1st & 2nd amendments are in jeopardy!
LIVE FREE OR DIE

It looks like they've taken that one down and one-upped themselves with the replacement:

[Link: www.firedupmissouri.com...]
[Image: 4.bp.blogspot.com... ]

A citizens guide to REVOLUTION of a corrupt government.

1. Starve the beast. keep your money.
2. Vote out incumbents.
3. If steps 1 & 2 fail?

PREPARE FOR WAR - LIVE FREE OR DIE

So if someone you disagree with wins an election and takes power you should stop paying your taxes, and then if your ideas do not win out in the next election, civil war?

BTW, Lafayette County Republicans... please stop abusing my state's motto. Find another catchphrase.

326 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:01:51pm

re: #317 albusteve

remains to bee seen...I would not count out his opinions either

She'll be margalized by other canadates...So how did that Alaska thing work out for you? You Gonna quit when the going gets tough as POTUS...
She'll sell books...that's all

327 Cineaste  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:02:05pm

re: #75 saik0max0r

I disagree with the notion that these are all "Private" in the sense that they were sent through a publicaly funded mail server.

Frankly, the "private" discussions about how to hide information from FOIA requests is very alarming, and since this in itself is evidence of at best a breach of the public trust and at worst criminal behavior (fraud) I believe the release of this information can be covered by various whistle blower protections.

Wasn't this all in England? FOIA doesn't extend to the UK, does it? They may have their own version but applying US rules doesn't make sense. Regardless, I don't see them trying to hide information from anyone but that's just me.

328 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:02:26pm

re: #322 saik0max0r

Ah, Thanks for clarifying.

On the one hand, I Cannot Resist Snark... Must... Post... Moar...

But It's worth pointing out that I did not call Charles any funny names, or engage in ad hominem attacks. In fact, I asked him (snarkily of course) to clarify his position, and he did so; I didn't directly attack his motives. I'm guessing he's got a pretty thick skin, and can deal with sarcasm as long as it's not personal.

I totally understand that he doesn't want links posted to items of questionable origin on his blog, and I respect that, and the fact that he does have a copy means he can't be accused of just hopping on a bandwagon. After that, I simply asked him to take a good look at all of Phil's authored mail, as the contents are suspicious and creepy IMHO.

And I appreciate your clarification. It was reasonable and actually funny. That's worth an upding in my eyes.

329 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:02:31pm

re: #321 HoosierHoops

Anybody that can bring in a CSN&Y song gets dings from me! LOL

Joni Mitchel, but close counts and I have to have those darndings...I've been gettin killed lately :)

330 Kruk  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:02:36pm

re: #218 SteveC

He's right. I'm always trying to read medical journals to keep up with my heart problem. The language I've learned to understand (mostly), but the numbers are especially hard. It's tabulated, organized and looks really good on paper, but the average guy with a history degree (ME!) has no idea how they got that way.

Sorry to hear about your heart problem,SteveC. With reading numbers in medical trials, I have to read medical papers as part of my work, and there are a few tips I've found usefull. (Apologies if this is stuff you already know.)

-There's a difference between what's statistically significant (i.e that you prove a difference) and what's clinically significant (that the difference means jack in the real world.)

-Be very wary of people who use unusual statistical tests and distributions. In general, the more fancy manipulations you have to do on your data, the less solid it is.

-Relative Risk Reduction and Odds Ratios are very difficult of you don't know you don't know the underlying risks of the disease or treatment. Almost all good trials will have the Absolute Risk (or Absolute Risk Reduction) and the Number Needed to Treat. Those are the ones you need to look at carefully. This paper may be of some help.

[Link: www.cmaj.ca...]

331 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:03:05pm

re: #275 SixDegrees

Heh. I'd start by removing the introduction - Genesis.

Genesis? Genesis planet is forbidden!

332 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:03:54pm
333 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:04:41pm

re: #318 SixDegrees

I don't know about that. Primary voters always seem to go for dull generic candidates (Dole, McCain, Dukakis, Gore [back when he was boring]). As much as the Republicans flirt with the fringes I just somehow doubt that Palin or Ron Paul have much of a chance at the nomination. They could easily become 3rd party spoilers.

334 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:04:57pm

re: #331 SteveC

Genesis? Genesis planet is forbidden!

Actually, he just isn't a Phil Collins fan.

335 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:05:43pm

re: #326 HoosierHoops

She'll be margalized by other canadates...So how did that Alaska thing work out for you? You Gonna quit when the going gets tough as POTUS...
She'll sell books...that's all

I'm not dissin any ones observations, my fallback is always the same...don't underestimate the ignorance/stupidity of voters...we have BO don't we?

336 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:06:33pm

Vince Flynn is on TV right now...I met him once...OK sorry to gloat...
Back to the subject at hand...He is a cool guy

337 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:06:55pm

re: #331 SteveC

Genesis? Genesis planet is forbidden!

Upding for the Star Trek III reference, even if the movie wasn't very good.

338 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:07:11pm

re: #334 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Actually, he just isn't a Phil Collins fan.

Aww, man! I had the accent right and all that, too!

339 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:07:45pm

re: #309 Ojoe

Victor Hanson on Palin: Don't count her out, basically.

Hanson goes populist. Is he drinking the tea, or the kool-aid?

340 Ben Hur  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:08:02pm
341 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:08:31pm

re: #318 SixDegrees

Split the party like Huckabee in 2008. Bastard.

342 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:08:58pm

re: #337 Dark_Falcon

Upding for the Star Trek III reference, even if the movie wasn't very good.

Every other Navy in the universe the Admiral would be in the brig for wrecking a perfectly good ship.

343 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:09:06pm

re: #339 wrenchwench

Hanson goes populist. Is he drinking the tea, or the kool-aid?

Neither. He actually provides some of his reasoning in the last section, which I'll repost here:

My Own Views?

I am prejudiced because what I learned over years of farming — dealing with California labor, environmental, legal, and tax regulations, pruning, tractor driving, listening to my grandfather, and handling unsavory characters, understanding plant physiology and fruit-production, etc. — I think gave me a different, but in the long run as good an education as a BA/PhD in Classical languages.

I found the former harder to do than the latter, the world of the one rather brutal and existential, of the other sheltered and protected. In other words, I would trust the judgment of someone with Palin’s background on matters of Iran or Honduras or Putin far more than I would someone of Obama’s resume. I would trust my neighbor who farms 180 acres more than I would a chairman of an academic department. I know, I know, there are extreme binaries, but they are reflective of the lack of autonomy and physicality today and the undue emphasis on elite schooling as prerequisites for success. We know now that you can do nothing and still finish as the head of Harvard Law Review, or win a Nobel Prize, but if you miss an antlered moose, or run out of gas in the tundra, or fall overboard on a salmon boat, there is no Norwegian committee or Harvard Law Dean to bail you out.

Such is not an argument for anti-intellectualism or a dismissal of in-depth scholarship and research, but rather a reminder that Palin has led a full life that can be enhanced by more formal investigation. A chatty, rarified Obama misses dearly a concrete past, where he had to succeed or fail on his own merits, in a competitive unkind environment, where the muscular world often conspires against the intellectual.

And boy, it sure shows as we are learning in just 10 months of his uninspired governance.

344 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:09:18pm

re: #333 Killgore Trout

I don't know about that. Primary voters always seem to go for dull generic candidates (Dole, McCain, Dukakis, Gore [back when he was boring]). As much as the Republicans flirt with the fringes I just somehow doubt that Palin or Ron Paul have much of a chance at the nomination. They could easily become 3rd party spoilers.

yup, far more likely...the GOP will probably split before they actually nominate crackpots...could be wrong tho, but 2012 sounds like a good year for a third party squeeze play

345 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:09:25pm

AllahPundit on the Palinite revolt...

One last footnote: Someone on Twitter told me that 500 books were signed in Columbus today versus 1,000 that were slotted for the Indiana event. Could be they’re scaling back to a more manageable number in order to stay on schedule.

Is it really that hard? I'm sure it would be a pain in the ass but it's hardly an impossible task.

346 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:10:05pm

re: #342 SteveC

Every other Navy in the universe the Admiral would be in the brig for wrecking a perfectly good ship.

In most of them he'd be executed. Mutiny is not a crime any military can tolerate.

347 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:10:08pm

re: #337 Dark_Falcon

Upding for the Star Trek III reference, even if the movie wasn't very good.

Updinging Star Trek III? You whore ;)

348 brookly red  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:10:20pm

re: #335 albusteve

I'm not dissin any ones observations, my fallback is always the same...don't underestimate the ignorance/stupidity of voters...we have BO don't we?

I would prefer to say that conventional wisdom & anything that has gone before will most likely have nothing to do with electing our next president. All bets are off.

349 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:11:27pm

re: #327 Cineaste

This isn't about extending FOIA, as the UK has it's own FOIA (Canada as well IIRC), very similar to ours in spirit.

350 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:11:31pm

re: #316 albusteve

Please explain how it's wrong?

351 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:11:36pm

re: #347 cliffster

Updinging Star Trek III? You whore ;)

You green blooded sonova -

352 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:12:11pm

re: #339 wrenchwench

Hanson goes populist. Is he drinking the tea, or the kool-aid?

my drift is that he would vote for Palin rather than BO...not that he inherently supports her...I probably would too

353 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:12:17pm

re: #344 albusteve

I'm pretty sure the primary voters are going to go for some obscure governor or senator with a decent amount of experience, a fairly noncontroversial record and no personality. The Tea Party splitoff candidate should be loads of fun.

354 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:12:53pm

re: #353 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure the primary voters are going to go for some obscure governor or senator with a decent amount of experience, a fairly noncontroversial record and no personality. The Tea Party splitoff candidate should be loads of fun.

Pawlenty, Jindal, etc.

355 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:12:54pm

re: #334 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Actually, he just isn't a Phil Collins fan.

you read about the problem with his hands?...really sad

356 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:13:01pm

re: #341 cliffster

Split the party like Huckabee in 2008. Bastard.

And Chuckles is already working very, very hard to do it again in 2012.

Frankly, I can't quite figure out what Palin is doing. It seems more and more like she's just trying to make the most profitable use of her 15 minutes as possible by pursuing the position of professional gadfly. Her career as an actual, office-holding politician is over.

357 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:14:11pm

Simple. She's trying to make the most profitable use of her 15 minutes as possible by pursuing the position of professional gadfly.

358 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:14:14pm

re: #340 Ben Hur

Yoink!

right back atcha

Cpt. Obvious

359 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:14:18pm

re: #355 albusteve

you read about the problem with his hands?...really sad

Sprained neck? He needed surgery I think. Can't hold the drumsticks.

360 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:14:23pm

re: #355 albusteve

you read about the problem with his hands?...really sad

What problem?

361 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:14:25pm

re: #350 Obdicut

Please explain how it's wrong?

hysteria is worse for civilization than AGW itself is for the planet...just what he said

362 Samita  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:15:24pm

Charles,

I applaud your stubbornness and integrity on this matter.

even if I thing GW/CC is a total sham.

a crime is a crime and watching people be hypocrites re: Palin and this is disturbing.

363 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:15:26pm

re: #357 cliffster

I believe her strategy is to become a hybrid of Oprah and Pat Buchanan.

364 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:15:29pm

re: #345 Killgore Trout

AllahPundit on the Palinite revolt...

Is it really that hard? I'm sure it would be a pain in the ass but it's hardly an impossible task.

If this is the problem, I question her staff and her publishers. Book signings are bread and butter events in the publishing world; organizing them is a matter of managing a number of factors, but they're all factors that are extremely well known - like how many signings per hour an author can manage.

If they can't even plan properly for something this simple, it raises competency issues on a number of fronts.

365 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:15:40pm

re: #357 cliffster

Simple. She's trying to make the most profitable use of her 15 minutes as possible by pursuing the position of professional gadfly.

That was in response to you, SixDegrees. I lifted your line and forgot to RE you

366 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:17:19pm

re: #363 saik0max0r

I believe her strategy is to become a hybrid of Oprah and Pat Buchanan.

a hybrid of Oprah and Pat Buchanan - blegh. Now, a hybrid of cliffster and Angelina Jolie...

367 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:17:33pm

OT: Uh oh

It's an AP article so I won't quote it here (due to DMCA threats from the AP), but basically, there are clusters of cases of Tamiflu resistant H1N1 starting to pop up in different spots and it's looking like H1N1 has begun mutating into a possibly more virulent form. For those not familiar with the history of H1N1 infections, the great influenza pandemic had a first wave that was similar to other influenza outbreaks, but the second wave was the one that was incredibly virulent and lethal.

368 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:18:21pm

re: #353 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure the primary voters are going to go for some obscure governor or senator with a decent amount of experience, a fairly noncontroversial record and no personality. The Tea Party splitoff candidate should be loads of fun.

I'd like to see some clean fiscon guy come up from the House, that just says the right thing over and over, with a record to prove it..which is like...impossible?

369 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:19:32pm

re: #361 albusteve

But that's a moronic comparison. Nothing is 'bad' for the planet. The planet will be okay.

The question should be "Which is worse for civilization, AGW, or AGW-'hysteria'?"

It's trite to say the planet will survive. It's a truism. There's nothing interesting about it. The interesting part is whether we humans will survive-- or civilization, if you're into that kind of thing.

370 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:21:29pm

re: #364 SixDegrees

If this is the problem, I question her staff and her publishers. Book signings are bread and butter events in the publishing world; organizing them is a matter of managing a number of factors, but they're all factors that are extremely well known - like how many signings per hour an author can manage.

If they can't even plan properly for something this simple, it raises competency issues on a number of fronts.

her nxt book, she can rent football domes and do three night gigs...that's what superstars do

371 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:21:33pm

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I read it. That's kind of the definition of populism--the academic pursuits don't count for as much as the "real world" ones. Of course, Hanson makes his living as an academic, as well as doing some farming.

This part:

In other words, Palinites should assume that there is no margin of error for her at all. Like it or not, she must, like Reagan, not only communicate, but also be able to draw on abstract concepts about conservatism. It does no good to say the media is biased, or to review the talking points offered above. She must be better than, not as good as, mainstream Democratic and Republican candidates in matters of foreign policy, gotcha recall, and talking points on healthcare, taxes, etc. Specificity, detail, and exactness, not generalities or whines about an unfair press, will make her a serious candidate.

highlights her weaknesses, as shown in the Iran/Iraq video of her with O'Reilly.

372 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:21:36pm

re: #367 bloodstar

OT: Uh oh

It's an AP article so I won't quote it here (due to DMCA threats from the AP), but basically, there are clusters of cases of Tamiflu resistant H1N1 starting to pop up in different spots and it's looking like H1N1 has begun mutating into a possibly more virulent form. For those not familiar with the history of H1N1 infections, the great influenza pandemic had a first wave that was similar to other influenza outbreaks, but the second wave was the one that was incredibly virulent and lethal.

Oh, shit.

373 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:22:26pm

BBL

374 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:23:19pm

re: #369 Obdicut

But that's a moronic comparison. Nothing is 'bad' for the planet. The planet will be okay.

The question should be "Which is worse for civilization, AGW, or AGW-'hysteria'?"

It's trite to say the planet will survive. It's a truism. There's nothing interesting about it. The interesting part is whether we humans will survive-- or civilization, if you're into that kind of thing.

full stop

375 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:23:38pm

re: #367 bloodstar

Just in time for holiday travel. Keep your guard up and your hands clean!

376 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:23:54pm

This is apparently not a parody:

Tea Party Documentary Film

377 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:24:05pm

re: #367 bloodstar

OT: Uh oh

It's an AP article so I won't quote it here (due to DMCA threats from the AP), but basically, there are clusters of cases of Tamiflu resistant H1N1 starting to pop up in different spots and it's looking like H1N1 has begun mutating into a possibly more virulent form. For those not familiar with the history of H1N1 infections, the great influenza pandemic had a first wave that was similar to other influenza outbreaks, but the second wave was the one that was incredibly virulent and lethal.

See, they were right about vaccinations!
//

378 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:24:24pm

re: #374 albusteve

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify?

379 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:24:45pm

re: #374 albusteve


If we end up living out the plot of a Kevin Costner movie, I for one will be very disappointed.

380 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:25:00pm

If this batch of emails and documents weren't illegally circulated, I'd be very tempted to post it at LGF, because an exhaustive reading would show people how utterly ridiculous it is to call this "the global warming scandal of the century."

381 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:25:38pm

re: #331 SteveC

Genesis? Genesis planet is forbidden!

"How can you be deaf with ears like that?" - McCoy

382 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:25:41pm

re: #367 bloodstar

OT: Uh oh

It's an AP article so I won't quote it here (due to DMCA threats from the AP), but basically, there are clusters of cases of Tamiflu resistant H1N1 starting to pop up in different spots and it's looking like H1N1 has begun mutating into a possibly more virulent form. For those not familiar with the history of H1N1 infections, the great influenza pandemic had a first wave that was similar to other influenza outbreaks, but the second wave was the one that was incredibly virulent and lethal.

4 cases in six weeks at Duke (one of the best hospitals around, where you send patients who can't get help anywhere else) is not a problem, it's a "glitch". Watch it to see if anything develops, but don't start worrying yet.

But this is worth keeping your eye on

383 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:27:50pm

re: #367 bloodstar

OT: Uh oh

It's an AP article so I won't quote it here (due to DMCA threats from the AP), but basically, there are clusters of cases of Tamiflu resistant H1N1 starting to pop up in different spots and it's looking like H1N1 has begun mutating into a possibly more virulent form. For those not familiar with the history of H1N1 infections, the great influenza pandemic had a first wave that was similar to other influenza outbreaks, but the second wave was the one that was incredibly virulent and lethal.

Oh, well. So far, our brilliant government, all the way from the Federal down to the county level, hasn't managed to make vaccines available even to those at high risk, and they aren't releasing any information on when - or if - this situation will improve. Our local county health department's latest message: we've canceled all future mass immunizations (they were giant clusterfucks, with thousands of people packed into close quarters for hours only to find that the vaccine had run out before they received it) and might have a better plan sometime, maybe.

So far, the good news is that the mortality rate is very low - something like 4000 deaths in the US out of more than 20 million cases.

384 keithgabryelski  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:28:19pm

Colorado billboard what once asked "Where's the birth certificate", now says "President or Jihad -- Remember Ft. Hood!"

Wolf Automotive 4855 Miller St. Wheatridge CO

Image of billboard here

385 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:28:57pm

re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If we end up living out the plot of a Kevin Costner movie, I for one will be very disappointed.

little jars of dirt?...experts here claim we have 100-150yrs before Miami is lost to the rising ocean levels...reminds of two pictures someone posted a long time ago, a big ass boulder in SF harbor...well over a hundred years apart and the water level was exactly the same

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:28:59pm

re: #228 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OT

Gang 'killed victims to extract their fat'

I have several Peruvian coworkers, so this has been a source of great discussion in the teacher's lounge.

I still don't understand what the market is, or was supposed to be.

387 Right Brain  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:29:16pm

Hacking emails? If the Left-overs had done it, it would be considered a public service, that the warming alarmist skeptics did it, well hell bells Louise we better jail'em.

388 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:29:25pm

re: #383 SixDegrees

As I understand it, the virus is cultivating slower in the egg process than expected, which is slowing distribution.

In response, the Obama administration has given two huge grants to pharm companies (yeah) to modernize production of vaccines so that next time we don't get caught with our pants down.

It's not great, but it's an appropriate reaction.

389 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:30:45pm

re: #383 SixDegrees

Oh, well. So far, our brilliant government, all the way from the Federal down to the county level, hasn't managed to make vaccines available even to those at high risk, and they aren't releasing any information on when - or if - this situation will improve. Our local county health department's latest message: we've canceled all future mass immunizations (they were giant clusterfucks, with thousands of people packed into close quarters for hours only to find that the vaccine had run out before they received it) and might have a better plan sometime, maybe.

So far, the good news is that the mortality rate is very low - something like 4000 deaths in the US out of more than 20 million cases.

Health Care Reform!

390 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:30:53pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

I have several Peruvian coworkers, so this has been a source of great discussion in the teacher's lounge.

I still don't understand what the market is, or was supposed to be.

Cosmetics.

391 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:31:30pm

re: #369 Obdicut

Sounds like that speech in Jurassic Park.

392 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:31:34pm

Someday, when civilization is wiped out and all humans are dead, our great-great-great-great grandkids will wonder why we didn't do something to stop it.

393 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:32:19pm

re: #263 HoosierHoops

The article is somewhat inaccurate..It says people stood outside all day in the rain.. No.. there were people that spent the prior night waiting and camping out...Jeez..To met Palin? How stupid is that?

For me to do that, you'd have to be...I don't know. Someone else.

394 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:32:25pm

re: #392 cliffster

Someday, when civilization is wiped out and all humans are dead, our great-great-great-great grandkids will wonder why we didn't do something to stop it.

How my grandkids wonder anything if all humans are dead?

395 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:32:35pm

re: #392 cliffster

Someday, when civilization is wiped out and all humans are dead, our great-great-great-great grandkids will wonder why we didn't do something to stop it.

looking down from Moonville at a brown, dead planet

396 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:32:36pm

re: #385 albusteve

little jars of dirt?...experts here claim we have 100-150yrs before Miami is lost to the rising ocean levels...reminds of two pictures someone posted a long time ago, a big ass boulder in SF harbor...well over a hundred years apart and the water level was exactly the same

Could be worse, we might have to act out The Postman.

397 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:32:52pm

re: #388 Obdicut

As I understand it, the virus is cultivating slower in the egg process than expected, which is slowing distribution.

In response, the Obama administration has given two huge grants to pharm companies (yeah) to modernize production of vaccines so that next time we don't get caught with our pants down.

It's not great, but it's an appropriate reaction.

The entire process, from manufacture to distribution, has been completely bungled. And the ongoing panic-mongering being practiced by the same agencies responsible for ameliorating the problem only makes it worse.

The word "clusterfuck" leaps to mind.

398 albusteve  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:33:23pm

re: #396 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Could be worse, we might have to act out The Postman.

we may get lucky and get to dance with wolves

399 SteveC  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:33:43pm

re: #388 Obdicut

As I understand it, the virus is cultivating slower in the egg process than expected, which is slowing distribution.

In response, the Obama administration has given two huge grants to pharm companies (yeah) to modernize production of vaccines so that next time we don't get caught with our pants down.

It's not great, but it's an appropriate reaction.

Vaccince can be made in cell cultures

400 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:34:17pm

re: #394 EmmmieG

How my grandkids wonder anything if all humans are dead?

Grandkids of Super-Humans, like lizards.

401 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:34:29pm

re: #390 SixDegrees

Cosmetics.

Apparently, cosmetic companies use human fat as an ingredient, and pay as much as $15,000 per quart for the stuff. It's mostly supplied through the liposuction market, but apparently some enterprising lads have found another source.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:34:42pm

re: #272 Pepper Fox

Remember that 10 year old who wouldn't stand for the pledge because he believed there wasn't liberty and justice for all? John Stewart enlisted pro-wrestler Mick Foley to protect him.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

I occasionally have a kid who pulls that. I tell them it is a pledge to pursue an impossible but worthwhile aspiration.

That usually works. If it doesn't, I tell them that they don't have to pledge, but they do have to STAND UP, so as not to be impolite to their classmates, and because it is a school rule.

403 saik0max0r  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:35:20pm

re: #400 cliffster

If you watch Doctor Who, Humans have a couple phases of existence in different physical containers.

404 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:35:33pm

re: #401 SixDegrees

Apparently, cosmetic companies use human fat as an ingredient, and pay as much as $15,000 per quart for the stuff. It's mostly supplied through the liposuction market, but apparently some enterprising lads have found another source.

Man, I could really cash in on that.

405 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:36:00pm

re: #399 SteveC

Well, yeah, that's what they've given them grants to industrialize the production of.

The major pharm companies doing it now are still mostly using the egg technique.

re: #397 SixDegrees

The entire process, from manufacture to distribution, has been completely bungled. And the ongoing panic-mongering being practiced by the same agencies responsible for ameliorating the problem only makes it worse.

The word "clusterfuck" leaps to mind.

It's definitely not ideal, that's for damn sure. But I think the largest limiter is the production angle. I do agree the public information angle wasn't handled well, either.

But I'm glad to see at least preparation for the future occurring. I'm glad anytime anyone can use a mistake to prepare to not make that mistake again.

406 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:37:00pm

re: #275 SixDegrees

Heh. I'd start by removing the introduction - Genesis.

Yeah, if you were going to do to the Bible what this gang seems to have done to Origin of Species, you'd have to remove stuff. Anything that seems to have historical value should be cut. Also any stories that accord with modern morality.

407 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:37:03pm

re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If we end up living out the plot of a Kevin Costner movie, I for one will be very disappointed.

I'm thinking Jenny Agutter movie.

[Link: www.videodetective.com...]

408 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:37:06pm

re: #404 cliffster

Man, I could really cash in on that.

If I ever go for lipo, I'm demanding my cut of the profits. Or I'll threaten to go on an all-mackerel diet for a few weeks before the procedure.

409 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:37:58pm

re: #276 Conservative Moonbat

we can't adapt to sulfuric acid rain

If left unchecked this thing will necessarily lead to the extinction of the human race unless we find a way to keep a few thousand of us alive under domes or underground or something like that.

Maybe YOU can't adapt to sulphuric acid rain. But some of us are not so set in our ways, mister.

//

410 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:38:37pm

re: #403 saik0max0r

If you watch Doctor Who, Humans have a couple phases of existence in different physical containers.

Just so long as they all have stairs and couches, just in case the Daleks show up.

411 cliffster  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:38:44pm

re: #408 SixDegrees

If I ever go for lipo, I'm demanding my cut of the profits. Or I'll threaten to go on an all-mackerel diet for a few weeks before the procedure.

*sniff* This lipstick smells funny.

412 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:39:42pm

re: #407 Decatur Deb

I'm thinking Jenny Agutter movie.

[Link: www.videodetective.com...]

I like the way you think.

413 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:41:29pm

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just so long as they all have stairs and couches, just in case the Daleks show up.

I have tried really hard, but I just can't be afraid of a shopvac with a voice synthesizer.

Now, Silence in Library, that was FREAKY.

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:42:28pm

re: #384 keithgabryelski

Colorado billboard what once asked "Where's the birth certificate", now says "President or Jihad -- Remember Ft. Hood!"

Wolf Automotive 4855 Miller St. Wheatridge CO

Image of billboard here

Oh how very, very, classy.

415 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:43:09pm

re: #410 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just so long as they all have stairs and couches, just in case the Daleks show up.

The Daleks have mastered such problems in the new incarnation of the series.

How they managed to conquer such a large chunk of the Universe prior to that remains mysterious.

416 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:43:12pm

re: #401 SixDegrees

I probably should not have ever mentioned the city in which I live...

*looking over shoulder*

417 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:43:24pm

re: #413 EmmmieG

Silence in the Library. Or Blink. Or The Empty Child.

Great fun being scared.

418 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:44:16pm

re: #416 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I probably should not have ever mentioned the city in which I live...

*looking over shoulder*

If woman start batting their eyes at you, consider running.

419 checked08  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:44:44pm

re: #325 simoom

Least they are being civil about it. Check this out:
A window case displaying a life-size cutout of President Barack Obama was pelted with a bucket-sized load of feces early Tuesday at Douglas County Democratic headquarters in downtown Roseburg.

“I was shocked to see it,” said Jean Patricia, a Democratic Party volunteer who discovered the vandalism when she arrived at 10 a.m. to open the office. “You'd think people would have something better to do.”


I voted for Obama, but this was hilarious.

420 Kragar  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:45:07pm

re: #415 SixDegrees

The Daleks have mastered such problems in the new incarnation of the series.

How they managed to conquer such a large chunk of the Universe prior to that remains mysterious.

Easy. When confronted with stairs, they would just back off and blow up the whole buidling.

421 SixDegrees  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:46:22pm

re: #418 SixDegrees

If woman start batting their eyes at you, consider running.

Or, consider offering to rub yourself all over their faces.

422 shai_au  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:47:05pm

Off-topic, but... Palin/Beck 2012??!?

My God. I don't think the O_o expression has ever been more appropriate.

423 bosforus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:48:35pm

re: #419 checked08

From the article:

“Whatever your political views are, this isn't something you should be doing,” he said.

Oh, is that a fact?! I would have never known.

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:48:48pm

re: #419 checked08

Least they are being civil about it. Check this out:
A window case displaying a life-size cutout of President Barack Obama was pelted with a bucket-sized load of feces early Tuesday at Douglas County Democratic headquarters in downtown Roseburg.


I voted for Obama, but this was hilarious.

Velma: Whatever happened to fair dealing?
And pure ethics?
And nice manners?
Why is it everyone now is a pain in the ass?
Whatever happened to class?

Mama: Class.
Whatever happened to, "Please, may I?"
And, "Yes, thank you?"
And, "How charming?"
Now, every son of a bitch is a snake in the grass
Whatever happened to class?

425 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 2:58:53pm

re: #422 shai_au

Off-topic, but... Palin/Beck 2012??!?

My God. I don't think the O_o expression has ever been more appropriate.

Couldn't be such a ticket, even if I sold my corrupt democratic soul.

426 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 3:03:18pm

re: #232 SteveC

SteveC's rule of thumb in selecting a surgeon: Go with experience. The guy who has done 500 procedures is worth a lot more than the one who has done 50.

The surgeon who did my 3rd surgery was a workaholic who averaged 1200 heart surgeries a year... and when they opened me up, scar tissue torn and blood went everywhere. My Cardiologist told me later that Dr. Pacifico was almost in over his head, and any other surgeon would have lost me.

Always go with experience.

Experience is important but time may also be a factor. What if A is somewhat better than B and C etc., but they're all better than Q, R, S, etc.? At some point if A and B are booked up for a long time and time's a-wasting, you're better off with E now than A later. Price might also be a consideration.

427 warhol15  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 3:48:08pm

Halfway through the article, I stopped reading and decided to come to LGF.

428 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 3:51:07pm

re: #310 Obdicut

Your first statement is trite and useless-- AGW is more likely to ruin civilization than AGW-'hysteria' is-- your second statement is wrong. We are humans. We are biological entities. We cannot necessarily adapt to every possible change.

We are but earth.

I disagree. AGW hysteria (mutated into eco-fascism or -communism or both) will wreck civilization far faster than AGW itself. We may die of both, but having lived through enough natural versus man-made (political) catastrophes, I hold with those who favor fire.

429 Achilles Tang  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 3:59:56pm

re: #406 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, if you were going to do to the Bible what this gang seems to have done to Origin of Species, you'd have to remove stuff. Anything that seems to have historical value should be cut. Also any stories that accord with modern morality.

Or you could go with the Jefferson bible and keep it short and sweet.

430 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #428 Cato the Elder

I disagree. AGW hysteria (mutated into eco-fascism or -communism or both) will wreck civilization far faster than AGW itself

Then you should have made that claim in the first place. Why didn't you?

We may die of both, but having lived through enough natural versus man-made (political) catastrophes, I hold with those who favor fire.

Those who favor fire are the scientists, who are the ones in majority calling for action on AGW.

Of course, if you're going to use a term like 'hysteria' to describe reactions to AGW in the first place, you're already begging the question in a rather obvious way.

There are hysterical reactions to AGW. They have little political weight and have no chance of destroying civilization.

Can you explain what having lived through natural and man-made disasters has to do with this, by the way?

431 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 4:18:39pm

By the way, I just finished reading through some of these emails.

If bits like this:

There's an email from senior IPCC scientist Kevin Trenberth in which he asks, "Where the heck is global warming?…The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t." [emphasis mine]

turn out to be echt, I'd say that Houston (or whoever's running the good ship AGW) may indeed have a little problem.

432 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 4:23:24pm

re: #430 Obdicut

Can you explain what having lived through natural and man-made disasters has to do with this, by the way?

Because the man-made ones (and I'm not talking about the allegedly man-made AGW disaster, which has yet to prove itself a disaster of any kind) are always worse than the natural ones.

And I said "catastrophes", not "disasters". There is a difference.

And I'm talking about things like civil wars, engineered famines à la Stalin, genocide. You know, stuff that came about because people thought they could control the world.

Kinda like what the AGW hysterics are proposing.

433 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 4:36:36pm

re: #432 Cato the Elder

Because the man-made ones (and I'm not talking about the allegedly man-made AGW disaster, which has yet to prove itself a disaster of any kind) are always worse than the natural ones.

That's a silly statement. The biological history of mass species extinction disagrees with you.

And I said "catastrophes", not "disasters". There is a difference.

Hee hee. Okay.

And I'm talking about things like civil wars, engineered famines à la Stalin, genocide. You know, stuff that came about because people thought they could control the world.

Kinda like what the AGW hysterics are proposing.

Well, have fun knocking the hell out of that windmill.

The 'hysterics' who are proposing the things you cite have no political weight and there is no chance of their agenda being implemented.

AGW, on the other hand, is actually happening.

434 Pythagoras  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 5:16:13pm

re: #380 Charles

Charles, help me out with one mystery. They are describing this as a "hack" instead of a "leak" but I haven't noticed anything that speaks to the distinction. What I've read sounds like their just thinking of the publication of the data as a hack.

You understand these things much better than I. If it was a hack, would they know? Is there something they've said that indicates they know to it was external?

435 Cato the Elder  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 5:20:35pm

re: #433 Obdicut

The 'hysterics' who are proposing the things you cite have no political weight and there is no chance of their agenda being implemented.

The hysterics I'm describing are the ones who think we can control our fate by turning society and economics upside-down with cap-and-trade and/or global carbon budgets. You know, the ones who just realized that the chances of anything concrete like that coming out of København are zero and who therefore decided to punt the whole thing to some unspecified future date. Thank God.

436 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 5:39:12pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder

The hysterics I'm describing are the ones who think we can control our fate by turning society and economics upside-down with cap-and-trade and/or global carbon budgets. You know, the ones who just realized that the chances of anything concrete like that coming out of København are zero and who therefore decided to punt the whole thing to some unspecified future date. Thank God.

Cap-and-trade didn't turn society upside down the last time it was passed, and wouldn't this time either.

I'd say the claim they'd turn society upside-down was pretty hysterical, myself.

437 blackfire  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 6:31:21pm

re: #380 Charles

Charles, this set of emails (illegally obtained) demonstrates supposed scientists essentially sacrificing core scientific principles for political ones. This is not a "nontroversy" and it won't be seen as one. This is a big deal and the fallout will be hefty and painful.

438 Gus  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 6:35:21pm

re: #437 blackfire

Great. So from now on it's OK to break the law(s) and commit a crime if one wants to prove a point. If the anti-AGW side is represented by conservatives then conservative are effectively philosophically aiding and abating to the same.

439 Pythagoras  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #438 Gus 802

Great. So from now on it's OK to break the law(s) and commit a crime if one wants to prove a point. If the anti-AGW side is represented by conservatives then conservative are effectively philosophically aiding and abating to the same.

But what if it's a leak from an insider, instead of a hack from outside? What is the law in that case? Do any "whistleblower" provisions apply?

440 Achilles Tang  Fri, Nov 20, 2009 7:02:38pm

re: #431 Cato the Elder

By the way, I just finished reading through some of these emails.

If bits like this:

There's an email from senior IPCC scientist Kevin Trenberth in which he asks, "Where the heck is global warming?…The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t." [emphasis mine]

turn out to be echt, I'd say that Houston (or whoever's running the good ship AGW) may indeed have a little problem.

The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.

I dunno, you will have to hang your hat on a bigger hook than that if you want the prize. Could be that he is simply frustrated that the science isn't good enough to explain enough of the short term fluctuations as in "at the moment".

441 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 1:38:27am
442 freetoken  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 2:54:54am

re: #441 eclectiblog

People are "enraged" because they have a need to rage. The entire phenomenon of nontroversies is about people expressing their need to rage.

443 JamesS  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 3:25:11am

As a University sysadmin in the UK, among other roles, I've seen systems compromised; sadly, the last two both were traced to the point of entry outside the UK (Spain in one case, I can't remember the other) - which amounts to a dead end, legally. The UK police don't tend to take computer crime very seriously, although that's improving (basically, unless it's child pornography or credit card rings, they'll just take a statement and forget about it), trying to get them to go and involve foreign law enforcement ... no chance. Even if we'd managed to get the Spanish system investigated eventually, we'd almost certainly either have found it was itself compromised from a third country, or has been wiped or can't be tracked down after that amount of time.

The US government is trying to extradite a British "hacker" named McKinnon, who broke into many military/NASA systems allegedly looking for UFO evidence - and after literally *years* of legal argument, despite the "fast track" extradition treaty and the fact he's already confessed, he still hasn't been handed over. That's between the US and UK governments; anyone care to imagine how it would go if this is tracked back to Russia, as someone suggested earlier? Iran? Libya?

If it's genuine, the talk about trying to frustrate FOI requests really should get the author fired on principle (not that the FOI antics are new, for some reason the CRU has been evading these requests for ages now) - it's the law, not a suggestion, and nobody should be able to ignore laws which don't fit their agenda, whether they are laws on computer trespass or information disclosure.

Personally, it seems simple enough: the world's a bit hotter than it was 10 or 100 years ago (though not by as much as the IPCC predicted, which is what seems to upset them) and CO2 levels are rising quickly - so we should shift to fission for our electricity (and recycle the fuel) and invest in more efficient technology. Until that's done, going for more expensive and less effective measures like cap and trade is just a waste of resources: it might achieve something positive, but the simpler measures would achieve much more for the same cost.

444 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 4:38:42am
445 freetoken  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 4:56:20am

re: #444 Alan The Brit

Try reality sometime, Alan The Brit.

446 SixDegrees  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:12:36am

re: #444 Alan The Brit

Uh - what "facts"? At this point, it's known that the server in question was broken into, and that's about it. The validity of the material posted hasn't ben confirmed, and frankly I'd have to call it questionable at this point, given the topic and that it's been in the hands of criminals for some unspecified amount of time.

Speaking of Mary Mapes, the rush to accept such questionable material as factual is the proper analogy, which isn't what Charles has done in the least. Although some posters (*cough*) seem intent on doing just that.

447 SixDegrees  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:18:28am

re: #437 blackfire

Charles, this set of emails (illegally obtained) demonstrates supposed scientists essentially sacrificing core scientific principles for political ones. This is not a "nontroversy" and it won't be seen as one. This is a big deal and the fallout will be hefty and painful.

Maybe. If they turn out to be legitimate. Under the present circumstances, that outcome is questionable.

Does it strike anyone else as odd that out of thousands upon thousands of files, one or two allegedly damning emails were spotted and brought to the forefront of everyone's attention within just hours of the release of the information?

Anyway, the provenance of the material is questionable, at best. Discussion of content seems extremely premature. Better to wait until authorship is confirmed - or disproved.

448 RogueOne  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:31:10am

Gus, I wish people were just as upset at the FOIA fraud perpetrated right before our eyes in these emails as they are with the illegal access of the FTP site. Yes, the emails were gained and dumped illegally but that doesn't change anything regarding the fraud hoisted upon the taxpayers who deserved to have this information released legally, something these "scientists" did everything they could in order to not comply. Illegally deleting their emails, conspiring amongst themselves about what to delete and how to hide behind technicalities of ownership in order to keep from being forced to release information we have every right to have.

Six, there isn't just one or two. These emails show a ten year pattern of lying and deception in order to make their data conform to their models and an open conspiracy to hide information from legal FOIA requests. You can argue all you like about the science behind the necessity to play with their numbers, but there is no defense for the intentional subverting of the FOIA.

449 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:42:07am
450 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:47:07am
451 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:49:57am
452 Pythagoras  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:55:45am

re: #441 eclectiblog

But Charles, its not the 'trick' people are enraged about. Its the 'technique' (if you will) of hiding the decline that's got people enraged.

Actually, it's the 'decline' that's important. This 'decline' is a discrepancy between the recent local temperatures and the tree ring widths. This is significant because it implies that the tree rings in this data set may not be a good proxy for temperature. If so, then their reconstruction of past temperatures may not be valid.

453 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:57:16am
454 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:00:31am
455 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:08:48am
456 myshkin  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:13:11am

This is really sad. A scientist employed by the public, who seems to spend the better part of his workday finding ways around FOI requests, writes an email indicating that using some trick can hide contrary evidence for some chart being produced for the very people who fund his research... and Charles finds nothing wrong with that... other than the sanctity of email privacy. I can't help but feel that replacing "Global Warming" with "Intelligent Design" would change Charles interpretation of some of those emails. The sad part? That we now know how "science" is done in the real world, and we're okay with that. btw - that "hidden in the open" comment is really comical. A scientist should know that a post-processed chart highly massaged for ultimate alarmist effect is hardly "open" data. Tell us how you created the chart, Phil. Give us the code and the raw data. But wait! There are a couple hundred other emails demonstrating how "open" Phil and his cronies really are.

457 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:13:25am
458 Pythagoras  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:21:06am

re: #454 eclectiblog

Then it shouldn't need to be hidden, yeah?

The fact that they wanted to hide it proves something about them. The fact that it IS proves (or disproves) something about global warming. I care little about the individuals involved. I care a ton about the science of AGW.

There are important, peer reviewed studies that show that the medieval warm period was warmer than it is now. For example, the Wilson, Hendy & Reynolds study of stalactites in New Zealand showed the MWP to be significantly warmer than now.

The studies that show the MWP to be cooler than now, are absolutely essential to the whole AGW argument. If the recent warming is not unusual, then it doesn't need fixing. Since we know that Greenland was warmer then than it is now, those who claim that the whole world wasn't also warmer have a bit of a challenge on their hands.

If the tree ring studies are invalidated, AGW loses its foundation.

459 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:23:48am

re: #444 Alan The Brit


*WHACK*

460 Pythagoras  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:24:07am

re: #457 eclectiblog

Ouch. I'm going back to bed. But first a snack. Pita and Hummus!

461 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:24:52am

re: #449 Parabellum

*WHACK*

462 Decatur Deb  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:26:38am

re: #461 MandyManners

See, you just have to be vewy, vewy quiet.

463 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:52:30am
464 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:43:06am

I see we have a rash of people showing up who think the best way to discuss this issue is to insult me. Those people will obviously be happier at some other blog that never challenges their prejudices, so I've blocked their accounts.

465 Pythagoras  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #464 Charles

One of them later conceded the point that his insult was unjustified (See #457). I thus plead his case; I think he should be regenerated.

466 pchas  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 2:32:00pm

Move on, move on, nothing to see here...

467 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 2:54:33pm

re: #458 Pythagoras

The fact that they wanted to hide it proves something about them. The fact that it IS proves (or disproves) something about global warming. I care little about the individuals involved. I care a ton about the science of AGW.

There are important, peer reviewed studies that show that the medieval warm period was warmer than it is now. For example, the Wilson, Hendy & Reynolds study of stalactites in New Zealand showed the MWP to be significantly warmer than now.

The studies that show the MWP to be cooler than now, are absolutely essential to the whole AGW argument. If the recent warming is not unusual, then it doesn't need fixing. Since we know that Greenland was warmer then than it is now, those who claim that the whole world wasn't also warmer have a bit of a challenge on their hands.

If the tree ring studies are invalidated, AGW loses its foundation.

Not in the least, you have got be kidding me. The medieval warm period was not warmer than it is now. Part of what really annoys me about you is that you keep bringing the same nonsense over and over. I keep posting the hard science that refutes your claims and you keep making them, without references or anything to back up your nonsense.

I linked to you the National Academy's review of long term warming and proxy data sets. Here is some relevant analysis.

[Link: www.ltrr.arizona.edu...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

[Link: www.ldeo.columbia.edu...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

468 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 2:58:07pm

re: #458 Pythagoras

Also no one is hiding anything. You again have got to be kidding me. Tree ring analysis does not fail.

469 caution  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:30:55pm

There are media reports saying this was a leak, not a hack.

Either way, it's a mess.

470 TBVet  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:00:37pm

The emails show that the politics and "reliability" of their peers are these men's men main concern. It shows a disturbing lack of substantive debate regarding the facts or merits of individuals who disagree with the theory of man's role in climate change. The fact that this group of "experts" still refuse to publicize their data does not help their case. The last series of climate change research that was scrutinized discredited Dr Hansen from NASA and exposed him as a fraud and a zealot.
The fact remains that zero evidence exists supporting man made climatic warming and these emails illustrate that these individuals do not have any evidence either. I never figured Charles Johnson to be one sticking his fingers in his ears repeating "La la la, I can't hear you," yet that is what he seems to be doing.

471 Alan K. Henderson  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:27:36pm

Volokh Conspiracy commenter Kazinski saw something intriguing:

The real smoking gun is an atom bomb. I noticed this when reading the emails at Climate Audit:
Phil Jones in 2005:

The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone.

Then in a message that made the news, here is Phil Jones August 2009 at Pielke Jr.‘s blog:

Since the 1980s, we have merged the data we have received into existing series or begun new ones, so it is impossible to say if all stations within a particular country or if all of an individual record should be freely available. Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e., quality controlled and homogenized) data.

So in 2005, the data existed but he said that he’d delete before releasing it. In 2009 after multiple FOIA requests, the data no longer exists. This is data that the UK and US governments paid Jones millions to compile and safeguard.

It can’t be explained away with any amount of handwaving. This is Inspector General and Congressional hearing level stuff. It isn’t just a tempest in a teapot.

472 Pythagoras  Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:54:26pm

re: #467 LudwigVanQuixote

Not in the least, you have got be kidding me. The medieval warm period was not warmer than it is now. Part of what really annoys me about you is that you keep bringing the same nonsense over and over. I keep posting the hard science that refutes your claims and you keep making them, without references or anything to back up your nonsense.

I linked to you the National Academy's review of long term warming and proxy data sets. Here is some relevant analysis.

[Link: www.ltrr.arizona.edu...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

[Link: www.ldeo.columbia.edu...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

[Link: www.pnas.org...]

Sorry to take so long responding. I was out.

I assume by "without references" you really meant "without links." I'm sorry that a link to Wilson, Hendy and Reynolds isn't available but it's in the Journal Nature Vol. 279: pp. 315-317.

As for the 5 links you provided:

1) I'm well aware of the 1999 paper by Mann, et. al.

2) This one is interesting and new to me. Still digesting it.

3) Very good but their support for tree rings as a proxy is equivocal and heavily caveatted. Since it only goes back 500 years, this wasn't to support directly the thesis that the MWP wasn't as warm as now, but to support the tree ring proxy method. Right?

4) Temperature is reconstructed based on the Magnesium content of foraminifera shells. OK, I'll concede that I was unfamiliar with this method. I'll research it.

5) Not about the past.

I think if you can get Wilson, Hendy and Reynolds, you should read it.

473 chip  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 12:54:44am

Charles says:

"RealClimate has responded to this stolen email nontroversy here"

But one of the things that has emerged from the hack is that the editors of Real Climate offered up their services to the CRU team to get their message out, including the deletion of contrary posts.

So, which ever way the debate goes, Real Climate is not a site with credibility on this.

More seriously, it's clearly emerging from the emails (if legit) that the AGW scientists were actively seeking to prevent skeptical science from getting peer-reviewed, even to the extent of trying to get the editor of one journal fired.

If one thing is clear, it's that the CRU team do not want their underlying data to be seen by anyone other than like-mined colleagues, and they are willing to withhold information from FOI requests and interfere with the perr review process to do so.

I think everyone can agree that this is not how the scientific method should be conducted.

474 chip  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 1:29:43am

I would also take issue with Charles' statement that right wingers and skeptics are ranting and fuming. This is a rather cartoonish view of the situation.

The main antagonist of the CRU scientists is Steven McIntyre, a Canadian mathematician who blogs at Climateaudit.org. The site is very heavy on statistical analysis with little to no political commentary let alone ranting or fuming.

McIntyre's name crops up many times in the hacked emails because he was responsible for discrediting Mann's hockey stick graph and, more recently, revealing that Briffa's tree ring analysis from Siberia relied on just a dozen trees, even though many dozens were available. Interestingly the dozen that were used all showed recent warming.

McIntyre has been seeking the underlying data for all of these publicly funded climate studies for 10 years and always denied. This triggered on of the more worrying revelations about the CRU team.

Leader Phil Jones said in 2005 that he would delete the data before handing it over to McIntyre. This year Jones said most of the data had been lost or accidentally destroyed.

Considering the highly political tone of the emails and the frequent discussions about withholding data and thwarting skeptical submissions in scientific journals, one wonders if this data was indeed lost accidentally.

475 freetoken  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 1:40:09am

re: #474 chip

Your attempt to make McIntyre the martyr in this situation is a sign that either you (1) haven't watched very closely what McIntyre has been up to, or (2) are practicing your Ken-Ham-routine. I suspect the later, given the carefully written nature of your post.

In McIntyre's latest attack on Briffa, McIntyre led the world to believe that he didn't have access to data because Briffa was hiding it from him.

The truth, as clearly stated by Briffa, is that the data was not owned by him! Therefore he couldn't give it out. Not that he should have, IMO, given McIntyre anything.

Then it came out that McIntyre had access to more data than he had led others to believe he had!

This is just the latest chapter in the sad story of a hack, McIntyre, who has worked to derail others by being a pest. McIntyre's ignorance on the subject of climate change and associated analysis tools has been demonstrated several times in numerous articles that can be found all over the web.

I applaud the people at CRU who have attempted to ignore and chase away the McIntyres of the world.

476 AtadOFF  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:13:17am

re: #327 Cineaste

The UK does have it's own FOI.

[Link: www.opsi.gov.uk...]

477 AtadOFF  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:22:32am

re: #345 Killgore Trout

Think about it. If she signed 1 every 20 seconds... a bums rush pace, it would still take over 5 hours to sign 1000 books. That is if I got my math right.

And that's without breaks.

478 AtadOFF  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:25:29am

re: #392 cliffster

You're not human?

479 AtadOFF  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:41:39am

re: #440 Naso Tang

Personally I don't think you should set policy that will effect your economy, trade and thereby the jobs and lives of your citizens when you don't understand what is going on.

480 jpkoch  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:12:47am

The case with Mann's Nature Trick concerned with the divergence between the thermometer record and the proxy reconstructions. This problem came to light quite a few years ago. John Finn brought this problem up at Real Climate, when he accused Mann of grafting thermometer records onto the last 2 decades of his reconstruction (MBH98) in order to hide the divergence.

Mann responded that no one to his recollection ever grafted raw thermometer records onto his reconstruction. The "trick" that Jones referred to was more sophisticated. A 40 year time series low pass filter was superimposed at the beginning and endpoints of the reconstruction. This in effect removed the divergence and "padded" the end points. This filter was reversed engineered by McIntyre, and it was very similar to a Gaussian Filter. Once this filter was removed, the divergence becomes obvious.

Why use a 25 year filter? Why not 11 years (which mimics sunspot activity, and would filter out that signal?)? Mann never responded, and he ignored all FOI requests concerning this subject. Now we know.

Also, it is becoming obvious to some, that CRU wasn't hacked. This was probably an inside job.

481 jpkoch  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:36:00am

re: #475 freetoken


Freetoken,
This 25 Oct 2009 email clip kind of blows Biffra's public statements out of the water, as Wigley himself warns in the email:


Phil,
It is distressing to read that American Stinker item. But Keith
does seem to have got himself into a mess. As I pointed out in
emails, Yamal is insignificant. And you say that (contrary to
what M&M say) Yamal is *not* used in MBH, etc. So these facts
alone are enough to shoot down M&M is a few sentences (which
surely is the only way to go -- complex and wordy responses
will be counter productive).
But, more generally, (even if it *is* irrelevant) how does Keith
explain the McIntyre plot that compares Yamal-12 with Yamal-all? And
how does he explain the apparent "selection" of the less well-replicated
chronology rather that the later (better replicated) chronology?
Of course, I don't know how often Yamal-12 has really been used in
recent, post-1995, work. I suspect from what you say it is much less
often that M&M say -- but where did they get their information? I
presume they went thru papers to see if Yamal was cited, a pretty foolproof method if
you ask me. Perhaps these things can be explained clearly and concisely -- but I am not
sure Keith is able to do this
as he is too close to the issue and probably quite pissed of.
And the issue of with-holding data is still a hot potato, one that
affects both you and Keith (and Mann). Yes, there are reasons -- but
many *good* scientists appear to be unsympathetic to these. The
trouble here is that with-holding data looks like hiding something,
and hiding means (in some eyes) that it is bogus science that is
being hidden.
I think Keith needs to be very, very careful in how he handles this.
I'd be willing to check over anything he puts together.
Tom.

Also, Mann's 2006 email to Osborne and Biffra is telling. It should shine new light on RC. CA, on the other hand, rarely screens commenters. Mann and Gavin Schmidt are free to screen whomever they wish. It is thier site. But one should realize that "skeptics" are not given a fair hearing.

guys, I see that Science has already gone online w/ the new issue, so we
put up the RC post. By now, you've probably read that nasty McIntyre
thing. Apparently, he violated the embargo on his website (I don't go
there personally, but so I'm informed).

Anyway, I wanted you guys to know that you're free to use RC in any way
you think would be helpful. Gavin and I are going to be careful about
what comments we screen through, and we'll be very careful to answer any
questions that come up to any extent we can. On the other hand, you
might want to visit the thread and post replies yourself. We can hold
comments up in the queue and contact you about whether or not you think
they should be screened through or not, and if so, any comments you'd
like us to include.

You're also welcome to do a followup guest post, etc. think of RC as a
resource that is at your disposal to combat any disinformation put
forward by the McIntyres of the world. Just let us know. We'll use our
best discretion to make sure the skeptics dont'get to use the RC
comments as a megaphone...

mike

482 badger  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:03:39am

What a shame, I've followed LGF for years and now I must become one of those morlocks.

I am a climate change skeptic, and I am also not an emotive fool, a conspiracy whacko or a crazed wingnut.

483 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 9:22:54am

re: #475 freetoken

Your attempt to make McIntyre the martyr in this situation is a sign that either you (1) haven't watched very closely what McIntyre has been up to, or (2) are practicing your Ken-Ham-routine. I suspect the later, given the carefully written nature of your post.

In McIntyre's latest attack on Briffa, McIntyre led the world to believe that he didn't have access to data because Briffa was hiding it from him.

The truth, as clearly stated by Briffa, is that the data was not owned by him! Therefore he couldn't give it out. Not that he should have, IMO, given McIntyre anything.

Then it came out that McIntyre had access to more data than he had led others to believe he had!

This is just the latest chapter in the sad story of a hack, McIntyre, who has worked to derail others by being a pest. McIntyre's ignorance on the subject of climate change and associated analysis tools has been demonstrated several times in numerous articles that can be found all over the web.

I applaud the people at CRU who have attempted to ignore and chase away the McIntyres of the world.

Excellent summary of the FACTS in the Briffa case, which are being distorted and misrepresented like crazy in this thread.

484 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:16:13pm
485 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:35:02pm

re: #484 billbrent

Yawn.

486 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:35:33pm
487 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:30:38pm

Well, I have read a number of these emails. Not all, but, all is not Kosher.


"09:41 AM 2/2/2005, Phil Jones wrote:

Mike,
I presume congratulations are in order - so congrats etc !
Just sent loads of station data to Scott. Make sure he documents everything better this time ! And don't leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone.
[Link: www.anelegantchaos.org...]


When I see a scientist worried about "Freedom of Information" and talking about "deleting files" rather than divulge, there is something wrong.

488 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 9:31:54am

re: #487 captdiggs

What's wrong is that there are dishonest hacks like Steven McIntyre who will cherry pick through such data and pull out deceptive bits to fool people like you. I don't blame these climatologists for being cautious -- they're being stalked by propagandists.

489 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:42pm

re: #488 Charles

Sorry, that really doesn't explain the fear of the law regarding freedom of information, and a threat the delete files in order to evade that law.
When "science" needs to hide data or fear its dissemination, even to the point of evading law, then there is something wrong. The obvious way to counter ( alleged) "hacks" is the complete and transparent exposure of all the data.

490 aceofwhat?  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:29:26pm

re: #488 Charles

That's a slippery slope. Funny thing about data - it usually speaks for itself. When it doesn't, that says something too. We're better off living with the data out in the open. That way, when a hack picks and chooses their data points, it's very easy to point out their selectivity.


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