The orange cones are having a race.

The newest one is winning. The one that looks oldest is losing.

This is how you see the world as you age.

Nice rack.

Apparently, some people have used cones to reserve parking on the beach.

Is that U-shaped thingie a bike-locking station?

Who knew HoosierHoops was at the beach?

The orange cones are from the Crime Scene Investigation, it's where the little sea bird was last seen alive.

The arch of triumph... classical, stoic, gateway to the sea... who was the victor? who was the defeated? The sea knows but doesn't tell.

Meditate on the cones.

Meditate on the Beach:

Or, mediate on that fact that you only have 33 more shopping days until Christmas. I need to send out my mail to friends in Asia soon to get there in time.

Just throwing an idea out for general comment:

Say you are thirty years in the future and the US is no longer using coal or natural gas for electricity generation and no longer using oil for ground transportation.

What would be the down side?

Just for you, austin.

The little bird walks the beach no more,

The server breached, the code is leaked…

All Your Climate Science Are Belong To Us!

Rods and cones...

re: #7 austin_blue

What would be the down side?

To many Americans, denser urban areas.

Not an issue for me, but Americans by nature don't seem to like to live too closely to their neighbors.

Still would not be as densely designed cities as in Japan, where I lived for a few years and with which i was quite happy.

re: #8 Fenway_Nation

Just for you, austin.

[Video]

Never was much of a Barry fan. That mullet is kind of creepy.

re: #7 austin_blue

Just throwing an idea out for general comment:

Say you are thirty years in the future and the US is no longer using coal or natural gas for electricity generation and no longer using oil for ground transportation.

What would be the down side?

The economic ruin that would result from such a rapid destruction of our energy foundation.

re: #11 freetoken

To many Americans, denser urban areas.

Not an issue for me, but Americans by nature don't seem to like to live too closely to their neighbors.

Still would not be as densely designed cities as in Japan, where I lived for a few years and with which i was quite happy.

I don't know if we have much choice. (NB- I'm a city mouse.) Seems the suburban model was based on cheap gas, and that concept is obviously under significant energy price pressures that will just get worse.

re: #13 Bagua

The economic ruin that would result from such a rapid destruction of our energy foundation.

'Downside' or 'design feature'?

re: #13 Bagua

The economic ruin that would result from such a rapid destruction of our energy foundation.

Why? Replace them with nuclear and renewables. Nukes for the base line power needs, renewables for peaking in a smart grid system. As for ground transportation, take a look at this guy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

'Downside' or 'design feature'?

In my opinion, both.

re: #17 Bagua

In my opinion, both.

Why would I want to hurt this country? You presume a lot. We have a serious problem. What's the fix?

re: #7 austin_blue

The down side?

What to do with nuke waste, and how the fluck to clean up after a semi truck with a 50 ton lithium/cadmium/sulfur/ion battery hit a little old lady driving a hyundi prion with a one ton lithium/cadmium/sulfur/ion battery.

Thirty years from now?
Once the bio-engineers have given us all wings we can all just fly to work, who'll need cars anymore?

/sci-fi absurdity

re: #7 austin_blue

Just throwing an idea out for general comment:

Say you are thirty years in the future and the US is no longer using coal or natural gas for electricity generation and no longer using oil for ground transportation.

What would be the down side?

Good evening, Lizards!

Assuming nuclear energy is still in the mix, we would have to build a lot more nuclear power plants and be processing plutonium in order to produce a constant flow of electricity. The minus is all the additional radioactive waste and associated risk that comes with nuclear energy. Of course, we would be producing much less air pollution and C02, so the net effect would probably add up to a plus.

re: #20 ausador

Thirty years from now?
Once the bio-engineers have given us all wings we can all just fly to work, who'll need cars anymore?

/sci-fi absurdity

So we kinda skip the flying car altogether then?

re: #16 austin_blue

Why? Replace them with nuclear and renewables. Nukes for the base line power needs, renewables for peaking in a smart grid system. As for ground transportation, take a look at this guy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My reservation with your time line is the implication of a complete replacement.

Alternatively, a gradual substitution as alternatives become economical and practical is a desirable goal, with the condition that it be voluntary and on a level playing field.

re: #18 austin_blue

Why would I want to hurt this country? You presume a lot. We have a serious problem. What's the fix?

I don't mean you personally, rather the larger Greenie agenda. I'm sure you sincerely believe this beneficial and not destructive from your posts.

re: #14 austin_blue

I believe it would take more than thirty to replace the number of jobs in the automotive industry with their nuclear equivalent.

re: #22 Fenway_Nation

So we kinda skip the flying car altogether then?

Flying cars are just sooo pre-gene splicing, don't you think?

re: #18 austin_blue

[...] What's the fix?

The fix is to not "put the fix in".

In other words, let the free market, industry and innovation make its impact on the energy market without coercive legislation.

The governments role should be to pave the way for the deployment of nuclear energy by streamlining the planning, licensing and approval process and by ending the ability of the environmental activists to choke off or make economically unfeasible new nuclear power plants.

re: #21 Surabaya Stew

Good evening, Lizards!

Assuming nuclear energy is still in the mix, we would have to build a lot more nuclear power plants and be processing plutonium in order to produce a constant flow of electricity. The minus is all the additional radioactive waste and associated risk that comes with nuclear energy. Of course, we would be producing much less air pollution and C02, so the net effect would probably add up to a plus.

Nuclear energy *has* to be in the mix. No alternative. But the waste from nukes is in tons. The waste from coal is in the gigatons of carbon produced. And we have about 300 years of coal left. Then what?

The changeover *must* happen. Coal-based electric generation, by definition, is not sustainable since it is a finite resource. Same with oil. Why not get ahead of the curve now and make it the manufacturing future of the US? We'll still build cars. They'll just be plug in electrics with *service stations* replacing battery packs in under a minute instead of pumping gas.

Again, where is the downside?

If the Feds spent $100 Billion of that stimulus money as long term loans to power utilities to build Nuclear plants that would make sense. You'd get at the minimum 10 more plants out of the deal and the Utilities would not have to raise rates substantially to finance construction like Progress energy is doing now in Florida.

Sens the waste to Yucca mountain, after reprocessing it for additional fuel, screw the NIMBY crowd.

re: #27 austin_blue

Nuclear energy *has* to be in the mix. No alternative. But the waste from nukes is in tons. The waste from coal is in the gigatons of carbon produced. And we have about 300 years of coal left. Then what?

The changeover *must* happen. Coal-based electric generation, by definition, is not sustainable since it is a finite resource. Same with oil. Why not get ahead of the curve now and make it the manufacturing future of the US? We'll still build cars. They'll just be plug in electrics with *service stations* replacing battery packs in under a minute instead of pumping gas.

Again, where is the downside?

There's always waste, we just don't see it. Once a battery is used, spent up it takes a lot of energy to reprocess it to life again. Rechargeable battery packs have a certain lifespan. That's not to say its better than what we have now...

One downside is the increased weight of carrying those batteries

re: #28 ausador

If the Feds spent $100 Billion of that stimulus money as long term loans to power utilities to build Nuclear plants that would make sense. You'd get at the minimum 10 more plants out of the deal and the Utilities would not have to raise rates substantially to finance construction like Progress energy is doing now in Florida.

Sens the waste to Yucca mountain, after reprocessing it for additional fuel, screw the NIMBY crowd.

Even if they spent it ALL on renewable energy resources, like purchasing more wind and solar plants, it would still be a boon to the entire energy industry. Even if the petroleum side of the industry went down, there is still the maintenance and upkeep side of the industry (speaking as someone who spends his time on the maintenance, operation, and upkeep side...I work on ships which are basically floating power stations, our generators could easily power a small town)

re: #26 Bagua

The fix is to not "put the fix in".

In other words, let the free market, industry and innovation make its impact on the energy market without coercive legislation.

How can a free market exist with a finite resource? That's not something you'll find in a macroeconomics textbook.

Here's an interesting view. I am not totally buying into it, but it's a good read:

[Link: www.alternet.org...]

re: #31 austin_blue

A true free market still has its downsides. We still need controls to both promote competition and curb the abuses in trust that a free market would have.

re: #32 Hengineer

A true free market still has its downsides. We still need controls to both promote competition and curb the abuses in trust that a free market would have.

Sure. The tragedy of the commons comes to mind...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #27 austin_blue

Nuclear energy *has* to be in the mix. No alternative. But the waste from nukes is in tons. The waste from coal is in the gigatons of carbon produced. And we have about 300 years of coal left. Then what?

The changeover *must* happen. Coal-based electric generation, by definition, is not sustainable since it is a finite resource. Same with oil. Why not get ahead of the curve now and make it the manufacturing future of the US? We'll still build cars. They'll just be plug in electrics with *service stations* replacing battery packs in under a minute instead of pumping gas.

Again, where is the downside?

I agree fully that the coal will not last forever, 300 years is a long, long time away whereas 30 years is not.

Surely increasing nuclear electricity generation should be a primary goal, nothing else is ready for deployment. With the right legislation, we could have a realistic target of 40% or higher electrical generation from nuclear in the 30 year period you mention.

re: #34 Bagua

I agree fully that the coal will not last forever, 300 years is a long, long time away whereas 30 years is not.

Surely increasing nuclear electricity generation should be a primary goal, nothing else is ready for deployment. With the right legislation, we could have a realistic target of 40% or higher electrical generation from nuclear in the 30 year period you mention.

Due to NIMBY, you'd still need to increase the capabilities of the electrical grid to actually deliver that power.

re: #27 austin_blue

Again, where is the downside?

Chopped up endangered birdies that flew too close to windmill blades while migrating?

re: #36 Fenway_Nation

Chopped up endangered birdies that flew too close to windmill blades while migrating?

And let's not get into the blocked view of New England waterways! I mean that's just pristine!

///

re: #27 austin_blue

Nuclear energy *has* to be in the mix. No alternative. But the waste from nukes is in tons. The waste from coal is in the gigatons of carbon produced. And we have about 300 years of coal left. Then what?

The changeover *must* happen. Coal-based electric generation, by definition, is not sustainable since it is a finite resource. Same with oil. Why not get ahead of the curve now and make it the manufacturing future of the US? We'll still build cars. They'll just be plug in electrics with *service stations* replacing battery packs in under a minute instead of pumping gas.

Again, where is the downside?

300 years of coal polluting our skys? Real Bad Idea! You're correct of course, nuclear power simply must play an increasing role in our nation if we are to maintain any hope of reducing dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce greenhouse gases. Don't forget, much of the waste currently produced by nuclear power plants can be eliminated by reprocessing it fully. Overall, going pro-nuke a plus but nothing comes without a downside; we all must be aware of the (low but deadly) risks nuclear power plants pose.

re: #35 Hengineer

Due to NIMBY, you'd still need to increase the capabilities of the electrical grid to actually deliver that power.

Maybe not. Coal generating stations have the same heat layoff requirements (cooling towers and lakes) that nukes do. Waste heat is waste heat. They have built in distribution systems. Why not simply build the nukes at the sites where coal-generating stations presently exist?

re: #33 austin_blue

Sure. The tragedy of the commons comes to mind...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That's one case, I was specifically referring to monopolies and the lack of competition having a monopoly in the market can create.

As with the abuses of trust, well look where deregulation of the banking and finance industry got us in the past few years.

re: #31 austin_blue

How can a free market exist with a finite resource?

It function well while that resource remains available, as the resource becomes less available, the principal of supply and demand caused a switch to available resources, or the switch occurs while the "finite" resources remain, but are no longer the cheaper option.

This will work much better in a climate of prosperity that does not restrict currently available resources. I know it sounds very counter-intuitive, but my personal view is that full exploitation of American domestic supplies of Coal, Oil and NG would actually result in less use of these fuels over the long term as the resulting age of prosperity would be a perfect climate for technological innovation.

re: #39 austin_blue

Maybe not. Coal generating stations have the same heat layoff requirements (cooling towers and lakes) that nukes do. Waste heat is waste heat. They have built in distribution systems. Why not simply build the nukes at the sites where coal-generating stations presently exist?

I'm not talking about heat layoff requirements and such. Nuclear has a built in knee-jerk NIMBY that Coal doesn't, no matter what the actual environmental effects are. What local politician will green light a nuclear power plant when he has hordes of local soccer moms and family advocacy groups marching to his office about keeping the power plant away from their children?

re: #11 freetoken

To many Americans, denser urban areas.

Not an issue for me, but Americans by nature don't seem to like to live too closely to their neighbors.

Still would not be as densely designed cities as in Japan, where I lived for a few years and with which i was quite happy.

Depends on how you were raised. I'm suburbanish now, and don't like it so much. I was born in LA, raised mostly in SF, and I like a nice bustling city.

re: #35 Hengineer

Due to NIMBY, you'd still need to increase the capabilities of the electrical grid to actually deliver that power.

Agreed, which is why I specify that there needs to be legislation on the Federal level that will eliminate the NIMBYs and the eco-warriors ability to block new power plants.

The grid upgrade is not the way forward from an economic point of view, the physics of line loss are the limiting factor.

re: #38 Surabaya Stew

They're called the Saudi oil ticks, not the Saudi coal ticks...

re: #13 Bagua

The economic ruin that would result from such a rapid destruction of our energy foundation.

How about using some oil for ground transportation in the form of mega-efficient diesel hybrids? We are so far behind Europe in our use of diesel it's sick. Diesel= massive torque!

re: #44 Bagua

Agreed, which is why I specify that there needs to be legislation on the Federal level that will eliminate the NIMBYs and the eco-warriors ability to block new power plants.

The grid upgrade is not the way forward from an economic point of view, the physics of line loss are the limiting factor.

I agree about Line loss. I haven't even searched but does anyone know what the current % Energy produced is lost in transmission?

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Depends on how you were raised. I'm suburbanish now, and don't like it so much. I was born in LA, raised mostly in SF, and I like a nice bustling city.

Come to Portland. Bustling city with studio apartments for $550 a month. :D

/of course you gotta find a way to make a living

re: #46 WindUpBird

How about using some oil for ground transportation in the form of mega-efficient diesel hybrids? We are so far behind Europe in our use of diesel it's sick. Diesel= massive torque!

Diesel = massive torque but to eco-warriors it = massive pollution.

Try arguing that in front of a PTA crowd.

re: #38 Surabaya Stew

300 years of coal polluting our skys? Real Bad Idea! You're correct of course, nuclear power simply must play an increasing role in our nation if we are to maintain any hope of reducing dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce greenhouse gases. Don't forget, much of the waste currently produced by nuclear power plants can be eliminated by reprocessing it fully. Overall, going pro-nuke a plus but nothing comes without a downside; we all must be aware of the (low but deadly) risks nuclear power plants pose.

Hey, I'm Viridian Green and I have come to the conclusion that there is no other alternative at this point. Take the nuclear waste, case it in ceramics, and drop it into the Marianas Trench and other subduction zones and let plate tectonics recycle it. We have got our ass in a crack. Let's not sweat the small stuff like spent fuel rods. Bigger fish to fry.

I don't know about y'all but I'm going out to the country and tapping a well, raising chickens, planting a garden, and throwing up a few wind generators. You're on your own.

re: #48 WindUpBird

Come to Portland. Bustling city with studio apartments for $550 a month. :D

/of course you gotta find a way to make a living

I'm sure there is, having spent enough time in large cities, its kind of nice when you don't have to spend that much money on gasoline when you don't need a car every day.

re: #50 austin_blue

Hey, I'm Viridian Green and I have come to the conclusion that there is no other alternative at this point. Take the nuclear waste, case it in ceramics, and drop it into the Marianas Trench and other subduction zones and let plate tectonics recycle it. We have got our ass in a crack. Let's not sweat the small stuff like spent fuel rods. Bigger fish to fry.

Damn, if only more greenies were like you

re: #45 Fenway_Nation

They're called the Saudi oil ticks, not the Saudi coal ticks...

Oh lord...the House of Saud! Another reason to hope we migrate to electric cars; so that these bastards can beg from us instead of us begging from them!

re: #48 WindUpBird

Come to Portland. Bustling city with studio apartments for $550 a month. :D

/of course you gotta find a way to make a living

Damn, that sounds nice. We'd be OK financially if the rents in the Bay Area weren't so nightmarish.

You got a Salesian school in the area?

re: #51 Pepper Fox

Didn't ya hear!? The world's gonna end in 2012 anyways...

//

re: #51 Pepper Fox

I don't know about y'all but I'm going out to the country and tapping a well, raising chickens, planting a garden, and throwing up a few wind generators. You're on your own.

Get one of those Stirling Engine dishes, those things pump out 25 KW

re: #42 Hengineer

I'm not talking about heat layoff requirements and such. Nuclear has a built in knee-jerk NIMBY that Coal doesn't, no matter what the actual environmental effects are. What local politician will green light a nuclear power plant when he has hordes of local soccer moms and family advocacy groups marching to his office about keeping the power plant away from their children?

See, this is the nut. The nuke backlash is blamed on "OMG TEH LEFT!!!1 and it is not really the left per se, it's paranoid NIMBY types, older environmentalists, and people who don't want their property values to crater. I'm lefty, and I am nuke all the way, as long as it's properly funded. Nukes and 140hp diesel hybrid engines in 1800 pound roadsters. All hail the new flesh!

re: #57 Hengineer

Get one of those Stirling Engine dishes, those things pump out 25 KW

Image: File:BetaStirlingTG4web.jpg I think Freud would have something to say about this.

re: #47 Hengineer

I agree about Line loss. I haven't even searched but does anyone know what the current % Energy produced is lost in transmission?

7.2% in 1995 Link

60% are from lines and 40% from transformers.

re: #47 Hengineer

I agree about Line loss. I haven't even searched but does anyone know what the current % Energy produced is lost in transmission?

A LOT...

What's more, current energy infrastructure isn't that efficient. Sixty-two percent of the energy consumed in America today is lost through transmission and general inefficiency. In other words, it doesn't go toward running your car or keeping your lights on.

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

re: #49 Hengineer

Diesel = massive torque but to eco-warriors it = massive pollution.

Try arguing that in front of a PTA crowd.

Well, here's the thing. OUR diesel in the 70's was massive pollution. Euro diesel is refined differently, pollution is no longer a factor.

I'll go in front of a PTA crowd dressed like Paul Stanley from Kiss and I will do donuts in a diesel hybrid Volkswagen Lupo and they will UNDERSTAND THE POWER.

re: #58 WindUpBird

See, this is the nut. The nuke backlash is blamed on "OMG TEH LEFT!!!1 and it is not really the left per se, it's paranoid NIMBY types, older environmentalists, and people who don't want their property values to crater. I'm lefty, and I am nuke all the way, as long as it's properly funded. Nukes and 140hp diesel hybrid engines in 1800 pound roadsters. All hail the new flesh!

Notice I said nothing about "the left". Most NIMBY types are paranoid moms or as you said the property value watchers.

re: #46 WindUpBird

How about using some oil for ground transportation in the form of mega-efficient diesel hybrids? We are so far behind Europe in our use of diesel it's sick. Diesel= massive torque!

Agreed. Again, an unfettered free market will make the more efficient technology king.

re: #59 Pepper Fox

Is that a Sterling Engine Dish- or are you just happy to see me?

re: #50 austin_blue

Hey, I'm Viridian Green and I have come to the conclusion that there is no other alternative at this point. Take the nuclear waste, case it in ceramics, and drop it into the Marianas Trench and other subduction zones and let plate tectonics recycle it. We have got our ass in a crack. Let's not sweat the small stuff like spent fuel rods. Bigger fish to fry.

Just don't do like they used to do out here in Northern California. The Navy used to get rid of their glowing detritus by putting it in barrels and having it towed out past the Farallones.

One gentleman who worked that gig, many years later, recalled that when the barrels floated instead of sinking, he'd put some holes in them with his sidearm until they started taking water.

It's a wonder we don't all have three heads, ya know?

re: #60 Bagua

7.2% in 1995 Link

60% are from lines and 40% from transformers.

Dammit, Megatron! Stop stealing our power!

/laserbeak, ratbat, ravage, eject, eject, eject

re: #42 Hengineer

I'm not talking about heat layoff requirements and such. Nuclear has a built in knee-jerk NIMBY that Coal doesn't, no matter what the actual environmental effects are. What local politician will green light a nuclear power plant when he has hordes of local soccer moms and family advocacy groups marching to his office about keeping the power plant away from their children?

I agree it's a problem, but it must be pushed. People fear change, but a lack of change is surely worse than the change itself. New nuke designs are much better that the last generation of reactors. The 4G models being designed now are safer still. No time to dawdle.

re: #64 Bagua

Agreed. Again, an unfettered free market will make the more efficient technology king.

Gub'mint regulation is the way to getting that refined diesel, though. 8-)

re: #56 Fenway_Nation

Didn't ya hear!? The world's gonna end in 2012 anyways...

//

Well at least that rules out a second term for Obama, what a relief!

/s

re: #63 Hengineer

Notice I said nothing about "the left". Most NIMBY types are paranoid moms or as you said the property value watchers.

Right, the NIMBY are a cross party phenomenon.

re: #50 austin_blue

Hey, I'm Viridian Green and I have come to the conclusion that there is no other alternative at this point. Take the nuclear waste, case it in ceramics, and drop it into the Marianas Trench and other subduction zones and let plate tectonics recycle it. We have got our ass in a crack. Let's not sweat the small stuff like spent fuel rods. Bigger fish to fry.

Upding for viridian green. Beats Phthalo Blue or Cadmium red!

/I have so many tubes of paint

re: #70 ausador

Well at least that rules out a second term for Obama, what a relief!

/s

According to my crystal ball, he won a 2nd term in 2012. But at least we get to take the easy way out.

re: #69 WindUpBird

Gub'mint regulation is the way to getting that refined diesel, though. 8-)

If that is Federal easing of restrictions then yes, that is a valid role for the government.

re: #72 WindUpBird

Upding for viridian green. Beats Phthalo Blue or Cadmium red!

/I have so many tubes of paint

I have so many little sample vials of perfume.

Bandit smells like Viridian Green.

re: #63 Hengineer

Notice I said nothing about "the left". Most NIMBY types are paranoid moms or as you said the property value watchers.

You're good. :) I am addressing America At Large, who blame liberals for opposing nuke plants. :D

re: #50 austin_blue

Hey, I'm Viridian Green and I have come to the conclusion that there is no other alternative at this point. Take the nuclear waste, case it in ceramics, and drop it into the Marianas Trench and other subduction zones and let plate tectonics recycle it. We have got our ass in a crack. Let's not sweat the small stuff like spent fuel rods. Bigger fish to fry.

Hey, I'm with you! As long as we're focused on safety, there's no reason not to go nuclear for the lions share our future energy needs. Wind and solar will also have to be encouraged, and energy efficiency standards tightened in order to move us along the sustainable path. New nuclear power plants are one of many (albeit, perhaps the largest) things we will have to change about our energy strategy if we plan on prospering and staying about water as a nation.

re: #76 WindUpBird

You're good. :) I am addressing America At Large, who blame liberals for opposing nuke plants. :D

Unfortunately the debate, such as it is, has been polarized by partisan politics. Environmental protection was traditionally a conservative value, but it has been co-opted by the left. The resulting backlash is part of the divide we see today.

One hopes cooler heads will prevail, but that is probably wishful thinking. The current situation in which the Dems are dictating massive changes will likely result in a massive backlash I fear.

re: #74 Bagua

If that is Federal easing of restrictions then yes, that is a valid role for the government.

Sorry Jack, not less regulation, more. Low sulfur diesel doesn't come from Oz.

"In the European Union, the “Euro IV” standard has applied since 2005, which specifies a maximum of 50 ppm of sulfur in diesel fuel for most highway vehicles;[1] ultra-low sulfur diesel with a maximum of 10 ppm of sulfur must “be available” from 2005 and was widely available as of 2008. A final target (to be confirmed by the European Commission) of 2009 for the final reduction of sulfur to 10 ppm, which will be considered the entry into force of the Euro V fuel standard."

In europe, tax incentives favor diesel. In America, they punish diesel. Government matters!

re: #72 WindUpBird

Upding for viridian green. Beats Phthalo Blue or Cadmium red!

/I have so many tubes of paint

If y'all aren't familiar, here's the source. The Pope Emperor of the Viridian Movement is an old friend.

[Link: www.viridiandesign.org...]

That's a lot of content!

re: #62 WindUpBird

Well, here's the thing. OUR diesel in the 70's was massive pollution. Euro diesel is refined differently, pollution is no longer a factor.

I'll go in front of a PTA crowd dressed like Paul Stanley from Kiss and I will do donuts in a diesel hybrid Volkswagen Lupo and they will UNDERSTAND THE POWER.

The US has already switched to "low sulpher" diesel same as in europe, they started the phase-in at the end of 2006. You can buy very efficient and clean running diesel cars and trucks (mostly imports), it is just that most people don't. There is still a cost difference both at purchase of the vehicle and for the fuel, with the state diesel taxes in most states designed to soak the big rig truckers making diesel cost more than gasoline by the gallon.

re: #62 WindUpBird

If it were up to me I'd find the diesel-is-teh-suck people's hometown- preferrably with alot of railway crossings or tracks running down the middle of the street- and at some prearranged gathering park a long string of boxcars so that there's no missing them. Then I'd rattle off some stats about the capacity of those boxcars, how much iPhones or starbucks coffee they could haul from coast to coast and how each boxcar could take anywhere from 3 to 5 tractor trailers off the road...and invite anybody's hybrid to do the pulling.

No takers? I'd feign shock and facetiously ask who would remove all these boxcars that can hold all that stuff. And lo and behold- the rattiest, beat up, nastiest-looking diesel locomotive would show up to take away the cars...

'413 tons of freight on a gallon of diesel on average. Let's see JB Hunt or FedEx top that.'

re: #78 Bagua

Unfortunately the debate, such as it is, has been polarized by partisan politics. Environmental protection was traditionally a conservative value, but it has been co-opted by the left. The resulting backlash is part of the divide we see today.

One hopes cooler heads will prevail, but that is probably wishful thinking. The current situation in which the Dems are dictating massive changes will likely result in a massive backlash I fear.

I will believe the massive backlash when I see it. I think conservatives SHOULD own the environmental movement, or at least share in it, but they don't. Corporations yank on the strings of both parties, but the strings connecting to the GOP seem much more interested in the pollution status quo.

It always blows me away that the hunters and rural types in the midwest who vote GOP haven't yanked back the environmentalism mantle. I'm rooting for them. Both parties fighting over who's got the better green policies, that's grreat for America.

re: #80 austin_blue

If y'all aren't familiar, here's the source. The Pope Emperor of the Viridian Movement is an old friend.

[Link: www.viridiandesign.org...]

That's a lot of content!

You had me at Steampunk Manifesto! I am a big fan of Abney Park and creaky Leonardo-Da-Vinci mechas stomping across the victorian landscape 8-)

re: #82 Fenway_Nation

If it were up to me I'd find the diesel-is-teh-suck people's hometown- preferrably with alot of railway crossings or tracks running down the middle of the street- and at some prearranged gathering park a long string of boxcars so that there's no missing them. Then I'd rattle off some stats about the capacity of those boxcars, how much iPhones or starbucks coffee they could haul from coast to coast and how each boxcar could take anywhere from 3 to 5 tractor trailers off the road...and invite anybody's hybrid to do the pulling.

No takers? I'd feign shock and facetiously ask who would remove all these boxcars that can hold all that stuff. And lo and behold- the rattiest, beat up, nastiest-looking diesel locomotive would show up to take away the cars...

'413 tons of freight on a gallon of diesel on average. Let's see JB Hunt or FedEx top that.'

On this we agree 8-)

re: #81 ausador

That's part of the problem, you have state taxes screwing up the diesel savings, and you don't have American manufacturers adopting diesel engines for passenger cars. If they don't build it, nobody will come.

re: #85 WindUpBird

The really ironic thing is that the boxcar is starting to become obsolete. Bulk commodities (i.e. grain, coal) or containerized freight is where it's at these days.

It's also worth mentioning that as much an advantage as rail freight has over trucks and air freight in fuel efficency, the most fuel efficient means of heavy transport in America is...barges. They average something like just under 600 miles per gallon for each ton. Of course, at times they also get an assist from the current.

re: #69 WindUpBird

Gub'mint regulation is the way to getting that refined diesel, though. 8-)

Yes. it was.

I drive a dodge 3/4 ton diesel truck that runs on the "low sulpher" diesel fuel that has been at the pumps of this country since late 2006 thru September of 2007 when they made the changeover.
Almost all diesel sold in this country is now ULSD.

re: #83 WindUpBird

I will believe the massive backlash when I see it. I think conservatives SHOULD own the environmental movement, or at least share in it, but they don't. Corporations yank on the strings of both parties, but the strings connecting to the GOP seem much more interested in the pollution status quo.

It always blows me away that the hunters and rural types in the midwest who vote GOP haven't yanked back the environmentalism mantle. I'm rooting for them. Both parties fighting over who's got the better green policies, that's grreat for America.

Yes, except that we probably disagree on what the "better green policies" are and also on the role of the Corporations.

Also, the modern hunters have had a tremendously positive impact on protection of habitat and species.

For me the better green policies are clean air and water, habitat and environmental protection and such, not the demonisation of fossil fuels.

[Link: www.gizmag.com...]

30 years is a long time for technological advances. I'll be pushing 100 then but I believe we will have spectacular leaps in areas we are just touching on now by then. Nano technology for one example.

I think it would be wise to take it easy getting there. Yes we have problems - but Draconian measures to try and solve them without fully understanding the complete mechanics could create even more of a mess. Financially as well as ecological. And by no means do we fully understand them yet.

re: #83 WindUpBird

[...]

It always blows me away that the hunters and rural types in the midwest who vote GOP haven't yanked back the environmentalism mantle. I'm rooting for them. Both parties fighting over who's got the better green policies, that's grreat for America.

For example: Ducks Unlimited is a hunters group whose tag line is "World Leader in Wetlands Conservation" which they document on their Site.

Hunting and fishing licenses and fees are a major factor in species preservation and protection throughout the USA.

The hunters and rural types still own the environmentalism mantle, the greenies are trying to co-opt that and turn it into a one issue obsession with CO2 and demonisation of fossil fuels.

re: #89 Bagua

Yes, except that we probably disagree on what the "better green policies" are and also on the role of the Corporations.

Also, the modern hunters have had a tremendously positive impact on protection of habitat and species.

For me the better green policies are clean air and water, habitat and environmental protection and such, not the demonisation of fossil fuels.

Someone earlier tonight mentioned that it was odd that a lot of the number crunching being used to run climate models was still being done on Fortran based platforms. So 1950's. Well, coal and oil is so 1890's.
No need to to demonize fossil fuels. They are both demonic and finite. Time to get of that teat and move on. It *will* have to happen. Let's make the money off the change by transforming our industrial base from digging coal to building carbon free tech. Shouldn't *we* take the lead instead of the Chinese?

re: #92 austin_blue

Someone earlier tonight mentioned that it was odd that a lot of the number crunching being used to run climate models was still being done on Fortran based platforms. So 1950's. Well, coal and oil is so 1890's.
No need to to demonize fossil fuels. They are both demonic and finite. Time to get of that teat and move on. It *will* have to happen. Let's make the money off the change by transforming our industrial base from digging coal to building carbon free tech. Shouldn't *we* take the lead instead of the Chinese?

Off. Sheesh.

The large hadron collider is back in business.

[Link: www.lhcportal.com...]

Totally OT: I had a student grab another student's nipple in class today.

What IS it with teenagers? Do they lie awake nights, thinking of ways to drive me around the bend?

re: #92 austin_blue

Coal, oil and NG are also very 2009. As to their demonic status, that is something we have somewhat divergent views on.

However, in the longer run, I do want to see coal phased out, my time line is just a bit more generous than yours.

re: #94 kingkenrod

The large hadron collider is back in business.

[Link: www.lhcportal.com...]

I heard that it will form a world-eating black hole in 2012 and that John Cusack will be in Panic Mode for 2 1/2 interminable hours...

re: #94 kingkenrod

The large hadron collider is back in business.

[Link: www.lhcportal.com...]

Lovely graphic on their homepage.

Perhaps the black hole they create will end the energy debate quicker than expected.

/

re: #87 Fenway_Nation

I want 600 mpg ;_;

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally OT: I had a student grab another student's nipple in class today.

What IS it with teenagers? Do they lie awake nights, thinking of ways to drive me around the bend?

Always have - always will.

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally OT: I had a student grab another student's nipple in class today.

What IS it with teenagers? Do they lie awake nights, thinking of ways to drive me around the bend?

I have worked in health care and I have seen terrible things. But what you do, it's like being in a Hieronymous Bosch painting. With an AFI soundtrack. You have my gratitude and my awe. :D

re: #101 WindUpBird

I have worked in health care and I have seen terrible things. But what you do, it's like being in a Hieronymous Bosch painting. With an AFI soundtrack. You have my gratitude and my awe. :D

They have their sweeter moments...but there are days...there are days...

Thank you!

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally OT: I had a student grab another student's nipple in class today.

Your job is way more exciting than mine.

re: #91 Bagua

Tell your guys they need to actually get in touch with their congressmen ;-)

/also, Ducks Unlimited will be the name of a band, mark my words

Night all! Keep being nice to each other. This was a very civil conversation tonight. I appreciate it.

re: #105 austin_blue

Night all! Keep being nice to each other. This was a very civil conversation tonight. I appreciate it.

Agreed, thank you for sharing your views, and for the record, you have caused me to rethink parts of my opinions on coal.

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

They have their sweeter moments...but there are days...there are days...

Thank you!

If only every teenager was like me! A silent scraggly headbanger who lived in Megadeth t-shirts, didn't want to talk to anyone and spent their high school career drawing weird crap in the back of the class, occasionally piping up to tell the instructor their opinion about the symbolism of Heart of Darkness was flat wrong :D

re: #94 kingkenrod

Curses- I knew that specially trained bird with the baguette payload would be insufficient!

re: #104 WindUpBird

Tell your guys they need to actually get in touch with their congressmen ;-)

/also, Ducks Unlimited will be the name of a band, mark my words

Actually they are very active on the political level, check out their relevent Webpage for the Ducks Unlimited Clean Water Action Center, notice the big blue "Contact Your Members Of Congress Now!" button near the bottom. They are especially incensed that the Clean Water Act protections were removed from "isolated" wetlands in 2001.

Here is Farmers Support Clean Water Restoration Act.

Field & Stream, the worlds leading outdoor [hunting and fishing] magazine, recently endorsed the Clean Water Restoration Act as one of the to five priorities for sportsmen. #1 in fact.

And that is just one group.

re: #99 WindUpBird

I want 600 mpg ;_;

Yeah...but having the current pushing you along for no less than 50% of the time doesn't hurt either.

It has been more than a century since America's first environmentalists — hunters and outdoorsmen — established the conservation tradition in our nation. These early environmentalists warned the population growth and industrial development that offered prosperity for our nation also created serious threats to the future of our wildlife resources.

And around 50 years ago, these environmentalists fought for the laws and regulations that created a new system of wildlife management that would ultimately rescue many species of wildlife from near extinction and would set aside millions of acres of important habitat to help ensure future wildlife abundance.

The hunter and conservation - An overview of historic and current conservation efforts in the U.S.

WindUpBird, please read the article, it may give you cause to consider that hunters and rural types have played a major role in environmental protection which has not stopped.

I'm a lifetime member of Ducks Unlimited and I don't even hunt. All I get out of it is invites to fund raisers several times a year where we eat, drink, and have a silent auction and door prizes. Also the knowledge that together we have saved hundreds of thousands of acres of wetlands and are adding more constantly. The "prairie pothole" wouldn't have many potholes left if we hadn't bought them or negotiated conservancy leases with the owners.

Just about everyone in the management end of the construction trades were members up in Alaska, so I joined for the networking. Turned out to be a fun thing, and their magazine is excellant reading.

re: #111 Bagua

It has been more than a century since America's first environmentalists — hunters and outdoorsmen — established the conservation tradition in our nation. These early environmentalists warned the population growth and industrial development that offered prosperity for our nation also created serious threats to the future of our wildlife resources.

And around 50 years ago, these environmentalists fought for the laws and regulations that created a new system of wildlife management that would ultimately rescue many species of wildlife from near extinction and would set aside millions of acres of important habitat to help ensure future wildlife abundance.

The hunter and conservation - An overview of historic and current conservation efforts in the U.S.

WindUpBird, please read the article, it may give you cause to consider that hunters and rural types have played a major role in environmental protection which has not stopped.

This actually goes, sort of, to what I was saying a few days ago here, which everyone was lambasting me for. That conservation should be, and is, a major precept of conservatism.

Some would have taken exception because you were implying that conservation was not a conservative value, and that you were singling out the smaller/slower cars and recycling. The later especially is highly controversial and the former conserves mostly oil which is also controversial.

In fact it is conservatives who have been the champions of the sort of conservation I referenced above, habitats, species, wetlands, forests, etc.

What you reference is more of the greenie agenda which focuses on reduction of consumption of Oil and other resources with the priority switched to AGW and the demonisation of fossil fuels, this is part of the co-opting and redefinition of the environmental agenda that I was talking about.

This agenda and co-opt is exactly what I am talking about in terms of backlash as people feel the need to push back at what they see as excesses and hypocrisy. Look at how "hunters and rural sorts" are portrayed by the liberal media and chattering classes, meanwhile they are the ones who have done most of the real conservation, while the latte sipping city types who look down on them are in fact doing far less and contributing far less on a voluntary basis, instead they favour taxation.

Heh...just got off the phone with my buddy. Doesn't know too much about politics.

He's worried about the healthcare bill (wants to go into clinical pharmacy). Says that if this shit passes, he's going to reconsider doing all of this.

I told him "No shit, you and all the aspiring medical professionals."

32 shopping days left*

Snoopy's Christmas

* (filling in for Freetoken who seems to have dozed off)

re: #116 TheMatrix31

On the flight back from visiting my grandpa on his 90th birthday, I wound up sitting next to this guy from came here from India. Even before this healthcare fiasco came front and center (cap & trade was the clusterfuck d'jour that absolutely, positively had to be passed earlier in the summer) he was talking about how there's this growing trend of 'medical toursim' in India. People from Europe, the USA or Canada who might not have been able to perform such and such procedure in their home countries paid to fly to India, get the procedure done there, convalesce at some fancy, upscale place and then fly home once they were cleared. He said some Central American countries were starting to recruit doctors for such facilities that as well...

I imagine this sort of thing could only pick up if 0bamacare or pelosicare is passed.

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

I know a lot of people who go to Syria and stuff to get dental work done.

It's gonna be awful.

Oh...and Not Another New England Sports Blog! was updated- women & minorities hardest-hit.

Is it just me, or are Mormons hot?

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

Also very popular in the UK with its NHS. Many of the doctors in the UK also come from India et al as it is not a very desirable occupation under the British socialized medicine.

Those Brits with a bit more money are also likely to come to the US for treatment they could not receive in the UK or would be on a long waiting list.

An relative of mine who would have had free care in the UK, went to the expense of flying to the US to pay cash for her cancer surgery and therapy as the free option was inadequate.

It is just amazing that Americans are marching blindly into this fiasco, sacrificing the worlds best health care system for a bunch of feelgood slogans.

re: #119 TheMatrix31

The thing is, the Canadians have the choice of either waiting forever or coming here.

Wait...Syria-sly?

I've heard of people going to dentist offices in Mexican border towns to get work done, but geographically that makes sense.

re: #122 Fenway_Nation

Well I mean, my family is Lebanese/Syrian-Armenian, so thats why I hear about that more haha

re: #121 Bagua

It is just amazing that Americans are marching blindly into this fiasco, sacrificing the worlds best health care system for a bunch of feelgood slogans.

Feelgood slogans?? I thought the drumbeat and talking points were how eeevil Big pharma and Big insurance were.

/Seriously...I never heard the 'Big insurance' phraseiology until this summer.

Dedicated to those poor scientists in the UK who want their emails back.
Maybe they just need to send lawyers, guns, and money.

/

re: #124 Fenway_Nation

The first step is the demonisation, Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Insurance, Big Corporations, all the things which have made America great, pay for most of its tax revenue and improve peoples lives worldwide are instead made to look evil.

Makes me sick. Orwellian lies.

re: #123 TheMatrix31

When I hear 'Armenian', I think that little mountainous country between Russia and Turkey...altho' didn't the Armenians have more land prior to the formation of the USSR or dissolution of the Ottoman Empire?

re: #125 ausador

All Your Climate Science Are Belong To Us!

re: #126 Bagua

'Big Labor' makes me ill sometimes...we hardly ever hear about that from the MSM.

/Had to fill out a Teamster's card during a job interview last week. I swear a little piece of my soul withered away and died.

re: #124 Fenway_Nation

Feelgood slogans?? I thought the drumbeat and talking points were how eeevil Big pharma and Big insurance were.

/Seriously...I never heard the 'Big insurance' phraseiology until this summer.

Insurance companies are just the worstest thing evar! Well, except for all the bloodsucking demonically controlled pharmaceutical companies. The CEO's of both sleep on beds made out of grandmother skin and stuffed with 100 dollar bills, it's true, I read it on DU.

Oh...and Matrix- a word of advice. In my experience, nothing good can ever come from addressing Cato the Elder directly.

Next time, just remember to
G to the
A to the
Z to the
E

Otherwise you're giving him exactly what he wants.

re: #127 Fenway_Nation

Yeah. The Turks took most of the land in the Genocide.

My family is Armenian from Syria/Lebanon, not Armenia-Armenian.

I've already noticed that there does seem to be a couple of people here who live to play devils advocate. They don't have a honest position on the topic really, they just want to argue with someone.

It was funny earlier today when one was trying to get another one into argueing with him and got turned down. I guess because he didn't want to argue with someone just like himself.

/names withheld to cover my ass.

re: #130 ausador

They must have the same interior designer as Big Oil, Big Tobacco, Halliburton, Big Telecom and Diebold

Oh...and I'd like to put in yet another plug for the Hanna, AB Roundhouse Restoration Project.

Feel free to go over there and vote or comment- registration is required, but you can vote more than once (1X per day with 8 days to go).

re: #134 Fenway_Nation

Diebold? Aren't they just the Republican version of Acorn? Why would the left hate them?

///

re: #136 ausador

Heh...I remember the Diebold meme when Bush won in '04. Then the GOP got their clock cleaned in '06 and my first thought was 'Odd...guess the Diebold machines weren't working'.

Doubly hilarious when it was the Dems who demanded touchscreen voting machines after the 2000 presidential elections.

re: #135 Fenway_Nation

Oh...and I thought the project was worth mentioning again because the town of Hanna, Alberta is at something of a disadvantage in this particular contest, since it's a pretty small town and they confess they aren't the most internet-savvy town on the prairie.

re: #133 ausador

I noticed that as well, but I reckon they both had views on the subject and the new one was trolling for an argument, that particular dustup has been going on for a bit.

'Nite all!

Now, onto the really important stuff in life:

DONALD TRUMP TELLS BEAUTY QUEEN TO BECOME PORN STAR

The bizarrely-thatched property developer, more famous these days for his starring role in the American version of The Apprentice than his wheeler-dealing, has been dispensing phone advice to disgraced Miss California Carrie Prejean, 22.

The all-American Christian lost her crown after racy pictures of her were published and it emerged she had made at least one sex tape. She also caused controversy with comments about gay marriage. But the advice dispensed by Uncle Donald, who owns the Miss Universe and Miss USA pageants, was probably not quite the words of wisdom her parents would have hoped for.

“Maybe,” says the 63-year-old, “she should become a major porn star, make millions of dollars and give it to worthy causes.”

re: #141 freetoken

I take back all the bad things I have said about "The Donald," that shit is funny.

re: #141 freetoken

Now, onto the really important stuff in life:

DONALD TRUMP TELLS BEAUTY QUEEN TO BECOME PORN STAR

'Bizarrely-thatched' is now one of my favourite adjectives for him.

In other news...paging Dr Freud, someone in Utah needs your help:

Utah lawmaker claims he doesn’t ‘mind’ gays, but ‘I don’t want ‘em stuffing it down my throat all the time.’

In the past, Buttars has said that gay men and women are “the greatest threat to America going down.”

Uh...

re: #143 iceweasel

Apparently de-Nile ain't just a river in Egypt either.

Freud would have loved this guy.

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

On the flight back from visiting my grandpa on his 90th birthday, I wound up sitting next to this guy from came here from India. Even before this healthcare fiasco came front and center (cap & trade was the clusterfuck d'jour that absolutely, positively had to be passed earlier in the summer) he was talking about how there's this growing trend of 'medical toursim' in India. People from Europe, the USA or Canada who might not have been able to perform such and such procedure in their home countries paid to fly to India, get the procedure done there, convalesce at some fancy, upscale place and then fly home once they were cleared. He said some Central American countries were starting to recruit doctors for such facilities that as well...

I imagine this sort of thing could only pick up if 0bamacare or pelosicare is passed.

Medical tourism is going great guns in the EU - depending on the coverage of the national health plans of each country. Lots of Brits and French are having implants, bridges and crowns done in Hungary and some of the other former East-block countries. Top quality care for a fourth of the price at home.

re: #143 iceweasel

In the past, Buttars has said that gay men and women are “the greatest threat to America going down.”

Heh

re: #146 AmeriDan

re: #143 iceweasel

In the past, Buttars has said that gay men and women are “the greatest threat to America going down.”

Heh

Oops... not an Ice quote... from her post. Bad formatting on my part.

re: #146 AmeriDan

Heh

heh indeed. :)

In today's billboard news, WTF?

New Missouri billboard tells Americans to ‘prepare for war’ against the government.

This billboard replaces one that warned that the socialist “Obama-Nation” is “coming for you.”

and
New Birther Billboard In Colorado Features Picture Of Obama And Asks ‘President Or Jihad?'

Today, a new birther billboard went up above Wolf Automotive off I-70 in Wheat Ridge, Colorado. The sign has a picture of President Obama wearing a turban, asking, “President or Jihad?” and exhorting, “Wake up America! Remember Fort Hood”:

Addendum on French national health: my impression as a resident is that it works. I never had to wait for anything and had my pick of world-class (that expression again) health-care professionals. A few years ago I received hundreds of thousands of dollar-equivalent cancer treatment and surgery by one of the top men in the field. Taxi fare was paid to and from home during the months of chemo and gamma therapy. An eight-hour operation, and five week hospital stay in a private room and two weeks of convalescence in a rest home. Other than the very reasonable fees I've been paying into the national health system, I never spent a centime for the treatment I received.

It's true that they could do better on dental, but my employer pays into a private supplementary insurance scheme (as do most employers here) which in conjunction with the national health system pays in full for all but the most expensive things, such as implants.

On the other hand, France is France, the States are the States, and often trying to transplant systems that 'work' in either place leads to failure.

WH pushback against GOP; snark city:

Since some opponents of reform seem too obsessed with the length of the Senate health insurance reform bill to even bother looking at what's in it for American families, we thought we'd make it a little easier for them to find some key of provisions they're working so hard to kill:

* On page 78 you’ll learn that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act ends discrimination based on pre-existing conditions.
* On page 17, it makes preventive care completely free, with no cost-sharing. (This might be of particular interest to those who have chosen to seize on concerns about the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force Recommendations on mammograms to spread baseless myths and advance their own political agenda.)
* Flipping back to page 16, you’ll find that insurance companies are prohibited from dropping your coverage or watering it down when you get sick and need it most.
* Also on page 16, you might notice that it puts an end to lifetime caps on coverage.
* Page 18 is where the bill extends family coverage eligibility for young Americans through the age of 26.
* On page 83 it requires insurance companies to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full – that means they can’t refuse to renew your coverage just because you get sick.
* Page 307 is home to tax credits for small businesses to help them afford insurance for their employees.
* And folks looking to scare our senior citizens about what reform means for them might be interested to check out page 923 and learn that it provides a 50% discount on drugs for seniors in the so-called donut hole.

re: #148 iceweasel

Bad Billboard:
Image: 6566308_70169157ef.jpg

Good Billboard:
Image: God_Billboard.jpg

re: #151 ausador

favourited and updinged! How's by you?

Wow, we just had somebody call Charles a "Mary Mapes" down in the hacked CRU email thread...

re: #153 freetoken

Some people might have to look that up.

re: #154 Sharmuta

Some people might have to look that up.

Wasn't she queen of the Scots or something?

/

re: #155 ausador

Just a very bitter, angry leftist who didn't get away with her lies.

Morning folks

re: #156 Sharmuta

Well just because she tried to paint Bush as the next best thing to a draft dodger doesn't mean that she was both angry and bitter does it?

/

re: #158 ausador

Well just because she tried to paint Bush as the next best thing to a draft dodger doesn't mean that she was both angry and bitter does it?

/

She can't even admit to the lying part.

re: #153 freetoken

Wow, we just had somebody call Charles a "Mary Mapes" down in the hacked CRU email thread...

My reply was that latching on to the contents of possibly false publications fit the poster complaining more than it did Charles. At this point, the content remains questionable, and just a little suspicious; see below for my take.

That photo looks like an ode to Mike Oldfield.

re: #160 SixDegrees

My reply was that latching on to the contents of possibly false publications fit the poster complaining more than it did Charles.

That'll leave a mark.

re: #160 SixDegrees

Yes, as you pointed out, the provenance is questionable. For example, of all those email accounts, the only emails that existed happened to have been about AGW?

However, the even more fundamental, other than the illegality of stealing other peoples' emails, issue is that the so called actions in the emails really are not the "smoking gun" that the denial-o-sphere would love them to be.

This is just a juvenile attempt at "gotcha".

re: #163 freetoken

But does it throb?

re: #7 austin_blue

(snip).

What would be the down side?

The price of Shires, Percherons and Clydsdales would soar.

I waited the whole 24hrs before jumping into the whole CRU scandal. Anyone proud of me?

re: #163 freetoken

Yes, as you pointed out, the provenance is questionable. For example, of all those email accounts, the only emails that existed happened to have been about AGW?

However, the even more fundamental, other than the illegality of stealing other peoples' emails, issue is that the so called actions in the emails really are not the "smoking gun" that the denial-o-sphere would love them to be.

This is just a juvenile attempt at "gotcha".

I just think it's premature to even discuss the contents until they've been validated.

re: #167 SixDegrees

It doesn't change the overall data, regardless. AGW is still real.

re: #129 Fenway_Nation

'Big Labor' makes me ill sometimes...we hardly ever hear about that from the MSM.

/Had to fill out a Teamster's card during a job interview last week. I swear a little piece of my soul withered away and died.

The world has changed (which is perfectly normal) but so much seems for the worse.

In the late sixties, I decided to do a 'Lord Jim': ship out on a freighter and see the great wide world. The only ships that would take non-union help were foreign - mainly Scandinavian companies. They even had a kind of hiring hall in Brooklyn. I was thrilled to find a berth as a dish-washer and general cleaner-upper on a Danish freighter heading out of Norfolk to all kinds of exotic ports-of-call: Casablanca; the Canary Islands; Bahia and finally, Venice Italy! In all, I was on board for a little over two months, and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. The fact of making around fifty dollars a week didn't really bother me, after all, I wanted adventure and new horizons, and was willing to pay the price. Joseph Conrad! But what I got was the heart of fucking darkness. It was Conrad all right, but my first encounter with the way people are treated when others literally have no respect for them. I was no goody-two-shoes and had already had more than my share of hard knocks growing up a housing project in Chicago. But this was something entirely new to me - a meanness of spirit I couldn't fathom. It's not that these sailors were a particularly rough bunch - and there were some great guys among them - it was something else that I'd have to qualify as a particularly European attitude concerning those below you.

I got off the ship in Venice, knocked around Italy for as long as I could on the meager amount of my wages that I'd managed to save and after getting to the point of selling my watch, I headed to Genoa to try to catch a ship back to the States. As I mentioned above, I wasn't a member of the union, but I did have an ace in the hole in the form of my Seaman's Papers, issued by the U.S. Coastguard. This entitled me to work on any American ship lacking a crew member for whatever length of time it took for it to regain an American port - which I eventually did, via Bermuda, Panama, Acapulco and finally San Pedro. The month I spent working as an entry-level mechanic in the engine room of the American ship I took back was one of the best experiences of my life, and much of it had to do with the fact that the whole crew - with the exception of the officers, were unionized. There was a spirit of dignity, of honest work well-done and decently-paid.

Like I said above, the world changes, and this was a long time ago. As for me, my experience with a national union restored my faith in myself and the people around me.

As I pointed out downstairs, there are thousands upon thousands of files in this material. It seems just a bit odd that one or two allegedly damning emails would come to light in the first report on the theft (Briebart?) with only a short amount of time between the initial posting and perusal.

It isn't something that's out of the question. But there's a faint whiff of fishiness coming off it that I don't like.

re: #169 ryannon

it was something else that I'd have to qualify as a particularly European attitude concerning those below you.

Have you read A Conflict of Visions. You'll really come to understand that attitude better should you look into that book?

Global Warming has taken effect. Everything West of St Louis is under water.

re: #170 SixDegrees

As I pointed out downstairs, there are thousands upon thousands of files in this material. It seems just a bit odd that one or two allegedly damning emails would come to light in the first report on the theft (Briebart?) with only a short amount of time between the initial posting and perusal.

It isn't something that's out of the question. But there's a faint whiff of fishiness coming off it that I don't like.

Add to it that Brietbart is known to tell or believe any lie that suits his wingnutty agenda, and is clearly lacking in emotional stability himself...

re: #170 SixDegrees

The denier-industry was very quick to jump into action, with a legion of volunteers working through the files, as seen for example on WUWT.

re: #173 iceweasel

I don't see the need to leap straight to personal insult; it doesn't bear on the discussion. It just seems a bit odd that someone found the needle in the haystack as rapidly as they did.

re: #169 ryannon

It's not that these sailors were a particularly rough bunch - and there were some great guys among them - it was something else that I'd have to qualify as a particularly European attitude concerning those below you.

With all due respect and exception to our euro-friends here, Spot On!

re: #169 ryannon

What a neat read! Post that sometime in a not so dead thread sometime.

re: #173 iceweasel

Add to it that Brietbart is known to tell or believe any lie that suits his wingnutty agenda, and is clearly lacking in emotional stability himself...

Emotional instability is a bitch.

re: #174 freetoken

The denier-industry was very quick to jump into action, with a legion of volunteers working through the files, as seen for example on WUWT.

I'm sure that's true, but that was after the initial reports, in which the emails in question were already front and center.

Or at least, that's how I'm seeing it. Perhaps my timeline is wrong, and the material was out there longer before the report I saw provided it's summary.

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

(that was really funny, by the way.)

re: #170 SixDegrees

There are only 1073 emails, and many of them are fairly short. During the overnight thread last night it only took me maybe half an hour after I had gotten the file to find one that has been published as a "smoking gun" on several of the sites today. I was just looking at a few randomly to see what might be there, it really is not all that suspicous to me that they found more given a few hours to do so.

re: #168 Sharmuta

It doesn't change the overall data, regardless. AGW is still real.

Really? Darn it, I was getting ready to rush out and buy a few thousand miles of really cheap oceanfront property.

re: #175 SixDegrees

I don't see the need to leap straight to personal insult; it doesn't bear on the discussion. It just seems a bit odd that someone found the needle in the haystack as rapidly as they did.

Well, in the case of Brietbart I think personal insult is more than justified. He's earned it. But we do agree about the speed with which the supposedly damning info was found.

re: #181 ausador

There are only 1073 emails, and many of them are fairly short. During the overnight thread last night it only took me maybe half an hour after I had gotten the file to find one that has been published as a "smoking gun" on several of the sites today. I was just looking at a few randomly to see what might be there, it really is not all that suspicous to me that they found more given a few hours to do so.

That may be. But the emails are only a small portion of the total.

Like I indicated, it isn't altogether damning. It simply strikes me as...fortuitous (to be as polite as possible) that this was found so quickly amidst the chaff.

re: #179 SixDegrees

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, these were leaked to RC a day after the FTP site was compromised and released to the public a day after that.

Interesting story on Harry's Place : Missionary Pies

This is a guest post by Yeze

Pnina Comporati, a 51 year old Israeli woman of a Yemenite background owns the Pnina Pies bakeries in Ashdod and Gan Yavneh in Israel. Haaretz reported earlier this year about her battle with rabbinical authorities about her kashrut certificate. After the Chief Rabbinate Council and the Ashdod Rabbinate imposed harsh terms upon her business in 2006, Comporati petitioned the High Court in 2007, highlighting discrimination against her on the basis of her beliefs.

...

The real issue, of course, is nothing to do with theology or practice – or pies for that matter.

It is about whether in the 21st century, it is acceptable to discriminate against members of religious minorities within a democratic country, whether a democratic state should have a ‘window into the souls’ of its citizens, and whether serious measures will be taken against those who issue death threats to middle-aged women trying to make a living.

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

re: #185 RogueOne

Sorry- it takes more than 48 hours to go through that sort of data in that quantity.

re: #185 RogueOne

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, these were leaked to RC a day after the FTP site was compromised and released to the public a day after that.

Pretty much what I heard, then. It's an awfully quick turnaround.

I'll note too, as I have previously, that 24 hours in obviously malicious hands raises the question of the validity of the contents. Without further validation, I don't think there's anything worth discussion concerning the contents themselves.

re: #185 RogueOne

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, these were leaked to RC a day after the FTP site was compromised and released to the public a day after that.

They were leaked to RC and also to a blog called The Air Vent, the AV site is the one who put the files on the russian server and spread them at first. Real Climate declined to do anything with or even mention the files until after it had gone viral.

re: #188 SixDegrees

It's an impossible turnaround. Ask any law firm of legal document service how quickly then can get through that amount of data with relevant docs ready to go in 48 hours and they'll laugh.

re: #190 Sharmuta

or not of. pimf.

re: #190 Sharmuta

It's an impossible turnaround. Ask any law firm of legal document service how quickly then can get through that amount of data with relevant docs ready to go in 48 hours and they'll laugh.

Well, you're correct that it's too short a time to go through all of them. It isn't out of the question, though, to turn up one or two particularly juicy bits right away. Unlikely, perhaps, which is my point. But not altogether impossible.

re: #189 ausador

The RC thread has been fun to read.

re: #192 SixDegrees

The metadata would prove if these "juicy" emails are genuine or fake. We'll see what happens.

re: #193 RogueOne

I don't know, havn't even been there to look. Not sure if I want to or not, the novelty has worn off a bit now.

I demand a new shiny thing!

re: #194 Sharmuta

The metadata would prove if these "juicy" emails are genuine or fake. We'll see what happens.

Maybe. My very first reaction to this story, in response to the statement that no one could have cooked up such a vast amount of material on their own, was that such deception wasn't required - it would only be necessary to "salt" the collection with a few juicy bits, and even those could be constructed by altering existing documents, rather than creating them out of whole cloth. If the emails were simply edited, detection becomes more complicated, although a formal investigation would be able to turn such deception up without too much trouble.

The Curious Rehabilitation of Inayat Bunglawala

Inayat has not changed. He had years to make these pronouncements, to alter his position and shift his stance. He never did. In truth, Inayat and his band of brothers over at the MCB lost. They were hammered by Hazel Blears when she was Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Before her, Ruth Kelly was equally forthright in her treatment of the group. Between them, they set about reaching over the heads of the MCB and directly empowered genuinely progressive grassroots initiatives. To win favour again, Inayat has to portray himself as a liberal.

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

re: #195 ausador

I don't know, havn't even been there to look. Not sure if I want to or not, the novelty has worn off a bit now.

I demand a new shiny thing!

Oprah's ending her talk show.

May be more troubling e-mails from Hasan

There may be additional e-mails that could have tipped off law enforcement or military officials to the Fort Hood shooter before he went on his deadly rampage, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee said Friday.

The U.S. government intercepted at least 18 e-mails between Hasan and Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical American-born cleric. They were passed along to two Joint Terrorism Task Force cells led by the FBI, but a senior defense official said no one at the Defense Department knew about the messages until after the shootings. The official spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss intelligence procedures.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said after a briefing from Pentagon and Army officials that his committee will investigate how those and other e-mails involving the alleged shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, were handled and why the U.S. military was not made aware of them before the Nov. 5 shooting.

Levin said his committee is focused on determining whether the Defense Department's representative on the terrorism task force acted appropriately and effectively.

Levin also said he considers Hasan's shooting spree, which killed 13 and wounded more than 30, an act of terrorism.

"There are some who are reluctant to call it terrorism but there is significant evidence that is. I'm not at all uneasy saying it sure looks like that," he said.

re: #190 Sharmuta

I'm not quite sure that it is an impossible task. If the hacker had 10 friends, each of whom was reading 100 email messages, you could work through the 1000 emails in short order.

I don't think it's impossible to sort through that number of emails in a short time if you have enough eyeballs to read 'em. It's similar to a distributed read and analysis of various federal legislation; each person takes a section and reviews it.

If the hacked AGW Club docs and emails are authentic then at the very least they demonstrate the existence of a considerable number of politicized arrogant assholes who happen to be scientists. Why apologize for these unprofessional communications which give science a bad name?

Obama job approval rating drops under 50 percent

President Barack Obama's job approval rating has dropped below 50 percent in a second major poll in an indication he is suffering from the long healthcare debate and weakness in the economy, Gallup said on Friday.

Gallup said 49 percent of Americans approved of Obama's job performance. A survey by Quinnipiac University on Wednesday had a similar finding, putting him at 48 percent support.

re: #196 SixDegrees

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

[Response: Putting this list up so that there is an index for what people seem to think are important. - gavin]

This is going to end up just being the start of the list of emails people are pointing out. It seems like an awful lot to fabricate in such a short time period.

Chores beckon - BBL.

Today's a day for painting!

later

re: #204 Jimmah

Someone has a job jar already, Ha-Ha. ;)

re: #198 SixDegrees

Oprah's ending her talk show.

Were doomed!
(you would think so listening to the talking heads anyway, wtf?)

re: #200 lawhawk

True. If the hacker had that kind of team ready to go from the beginning, I suppose so. It still seems awfully convenient to have found the smoking gun so quickly. Just my two cents.

re: #203 RogueOne

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

This is going to end up just being the start of the list of emails people are pointing out. It seems like an awful lot to fabricate in such a short time period.

Nonetheless, I think it's prudent to wait until their validity is established before commenting on the contents.

re: #192 SixDegrees

When I mentioned "legion" wrt the true followers in the denial-o-sphere, I meant literally the number "legion":

a unit of 3,000–6,000 men in the ancient Roman army

There actually are thousands of armchair "scientists" who spend their days looking over every jot and tittle from the climatology community, to try and "gotcha" the actual scientists.

One such, Steve McIntyre, is the subject of some of the email in question. It also happens that someone a short time ago put into the links here a link to McIntyre's latest crowing about this affair.

The raw nerve that AGW strikes, as a science, is only outdone in magnitude by the grandaddy of culture-war topics - Evolution. When it became evident in the late 70's and early 80's that indeed human activity was changing the climate and had the potential to do so greatly, the culprits (oil and coal industry) went into action with their PR.

That is one reason why I linked to the Jeff Masters blog entry (see spinoffs) as he goes back to the 1991 effort by Western Fuels as a starting point to understand where the "CO2 is good for you" meme really started to get going.

This is a wide culture-war-like tussle between those who don't want to own up to the results of their actions (pretty much all of American society, and the fossil fuel industry which has profited greatly from it) and the science-driving-social-responsibility crowd which has tried for decades to confront the American public with the unpleasant truth.

That is why this crowing over the stolen CRU emails is so ironic and sad. The crowd (IBD, Telegraph, McIntyre, WUWT, etc.) who have been the ones who have played into the hands of the real cover up (the effort by Western Fuels, Exxon, etc. to intentionally obfuscate the science) are now the ones claiming to have finally gotten the truth!

re: #206 RogueOne

Someone has a job jar already, Ha-Ha. ;)

hee. What a good idea...

I'm making chicken soup from scratch today, so he's not the only one with chores! And I just made him brunch. :)
Have a nice day!

re: #203 RogueOne

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

This is going to end up just being the start of the list of emails people are pointing out. It seems like an awful lot to fabricate in such a short time period.

There are already several people hosting all the emails in searchable databases online, just type in the word you want and see what pops up. Certain types are going to continue to push this hard and see if they can get the MSM's attention with it.

re: #210 freetoken

I'm content to wait for facts to emerge.

re: #201 Spare O'Lake

If the hacked AGW Club docs and emails are authentic then at the very least they demonstrate the existence of a considerable number of politicized arrogant assholes who happen to be scientists. Why apologize for these unprofessional communications which give science a bad name?

There are some pretty unprofessional posters at LGF from time to time. We are still here however. Anyone who expects scientists to be polite and always correct is naive at best.

The significant part is not individual scientists, but the scientific process. The latter is never applied by the anti science crowd and just as with creationists, their primary research is composed of looking for gotcha interpretations within what others have done.

I haven't read these emails, but the few examples I have seen here as evidence of malfeasance fall squarely into the naive camp as far as the poster was concerned.

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Global Warming has taken effect. Everything West of St Louis is under water.

gosh... crickets?

(the Arch)

Time to work. Y'all enjoy.

Assuming the docs and emails are authentic, the zeal, lack of measured language and dismissiveness towards other points of view seem to belie an agenda and a closed-mindedness which is most unbecoming in those who claim to be objective scientists.

re: #214 Naso Tang

There are some pretty unprofessional posters at LGF from time to time. We are still here however. Anyone who expects scientists to be polite and always correct is naive at best.

Lame to equate blog comments with (supposedly) professional communications.

re: #216 Spare O'Lake

Assuming the docs and emails are authentic, the zeal, lack of measured language and dismissiveness towards other points of view seem to belie an agenda and a closed-mindedness which is most unbecoming in those who claim to be objective scientists.

Do you accept or reject science based on how well you like the scientists involved?

Last time I looked scientists as a whole had a reputation as nerds, to be nice, and boring jerks, to be less nice.

I don't think you have thought your apparently newfound indignation through.

re: #217 Spare O'Lake

Lame to equate blog comments with (supposedly) professional communications.

What, you don't think we have the equivalent of professional opinions expressed here just because this is a plebeian blog?

Hello, calling Charles!

The NY Times has done an article on the email theft, pretty good, some info about this I hadn't heard yet. The author didn't show any bias towards anyone that I can see. He interviewed several of the principals involved (wrote emails or named in emails) from both sides of the AGW debate and reported the facts of the story.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

re: #217 Spare O'Lake

Lame to equate blog comments with (supposedly) professional communications.

Sorry, but no.

"Professional communications" are what is found in journals.

What was stolen are personal emails.

re: #220 ausador

BUT the author is the supposedly (according to Rush Limbaugh) notorious Andy Revkin!

re: #214 Naso Tang

It's not the crime, or the lack thereof if you want to take that position on this, that gets you...it's the cover-up. I might be a bit overly skeptical, but I think it's naive to believe government agencies routinely behave above-board when dealing with FOIA requests especially when those departments are in the middle of a highly contentious debate. If those emails turn out to be genuine, and I'm strongly leaning in that direction, then that failure taints every bit of information they have ever put out. "We deleted information so we didn't have to give it to you because we had nothing to hide" is not a winning argument.

I said "I'm strongly leaning", the only thing that keeps me from jumping in with both feet is that comment someone posted yesterday (somewhere I don't remember) about "Beware Hitlers Diary".

Stinky's going to have some real clean-up to do later today...

re: #224 freetoken

I'm not that much of a noob here anymore but I still don't get the "stinky" references.

re: #223 RogueOne

US Army HQ is pretty religious about FOIA. Requests ranked just below Congressionals and Presidentials. This AGW stuff is UK, of course, and might come from a different culture.

re: #electronic218 Naso Tang

Do you accept or reject science based on how well you like the scientists involved?

No, but I do have a pet peeve concerning "informal" electronic communications. Business or "work" emails in particular should be written with the same care as a letter, and with the full expectation that sooner or later hostile eyes may well come into possession of the communication.

re: #224 freetoken

Stinky's going to have some real clean-up to do later today...

Yep, the socks are loose downstairs. :(

re: #221 freetoken

Sorry, but no.

"Professional communications" are what is found in journals.
What was stolen are personal emails.

You should speak to some risk management personel at hospitals or law firms about the huge problem of these reams of casual communications that are lying around in patient and client files, just waiting to blow up and embarass the hospital or firm. Professionals do need to be more careful.

re: #228 ausador

Yep, the socks are loose downstairs. :(

Where?

re: #230 MandyManners

Where?

As she reaches for tackle and lumber...

re: #230 MandyManners

In the CRU got hacked thread

re: #225 RogueOne

No one is going to explain "stinky" to me?

re: #233 RogueOne

No one is going to explain "stinky" to me?

Stinky is all things to all men.

Lao Stinky is wise and fair. And accurate with the wrench.

As I understand, sort of like Paulie Walnuts to Tony.

re: #234 Bloodnok

That's not helping//

re: #237 RogueOne

Stinky is the janitorial engineer.

re: #232 ausador

In the CRU got hacked thread

Thanks!

re: #237 RogueOne

That's not helping//

Stinky is the word you hear in the breeze when an ill wind blows.

And they call him Mister Beaumont!

re: #238 Sharmuta

software, hardware, or euphemism?

re: #242 RogueOne

software, hardware, or euphemism?

Yes

re: #240 Bloodnok

Still...not helping/

re: #243 Bloodnok

Yes

It's funny because it's true.

I didn't see anything mean or tacky.

Stinky's greatest trick was convincing people he doesn't exist.

re: #246 MandyManners

One of them called Charles Mary Mapes.

re: #248 Sharmuta

One of them called Charles Mary Mapes.

I missed that. Which one? Asshole.

re: #249 MandyManners

Maybe a monitor made it go buh-bye?

re: #246 MandyManners

Two wanna be flounces and one who chickened out and started talking more reasonably, you didn't scroll up enough I guess.

Gonna' look again.

No, on second thought, I got enough negative shit in my life.

This is funny. Finally a criminal that's not all that stupid. (video of the "suspect" eating said robbery not at link)

[Link: www.ohio.com...]

Police believe they have their man.

But they fear their suspect in a bank robbery may have eaten some of the evidence — the note handed to a Streetsboro bank teller demanding cash — while he was handcuffed and leaning over the hood of a police cruiser.

Twinsburg police Patrolman Daniel Biada said a dash cam video of Thursday's arrest of John H. Ford, 35, of Cleveland, shows Ford gobbling a piece of paper while officers searched his pockets.

''As we're searching him, officers are removing items and throwing them on the cruiser [hood],'' Biada said. ''We're searching him for weapons. We're not looking at his head.''

/fark

re: #252 MandyManners

Here- have some music- albusteve approved:

re: #118 Fenway_Nation

Central and SAmerica already have US trained Doctors, Dentists, Nurses and equipment. Great facilities and some with their own health insurance programs. $95 a month premium on major medical for a Senior. Outpatient visits are so cheap no one bothers with insurance and pays cash.

I chatted online with a lady who had recently had cancer surgery in Nicaragua. About $1000 for all the outpatient tests and labwork and $110 for the operation to remove a large tumor. (She had the $95 a month program with the best hospital in Nica).

Lots of Seniors and Boomers are retiring there as well as medical tourism from the US and Canada already.

re: #244 RogueOne

Still...not helping/

Behold.

The wrench.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]