Tiny Tim at the peak of his talents. One of the strangest performances you’ll ever see.
Via Boing Boing, where they inform us that this extremely weird song is referenced by Thomas Pynchon in his new book, Inherent Vice.
3 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:33:35pm |
oh, it's an old tape... but he is still around, no?
| 4 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:33:56pm |
his hips are wider than his shoulders...what does that mean?
| 6 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:34:34pm |
| 7 |
bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:35:02pm |
Is it strange that I understood the Czech song from last week more clearly than I understood this?
| 8 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:35:07pm |
They're melting! Melting! Who would have believed CO2 could destroy their perfect wickedness?
| 9 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:35:15pm |
his mother was that wicked witch from Oz...is that cruel?
| 10 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:35:37pm |
Shoulda' stayed away from the brown acid, dude.
| 11 |
Mustafa Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:38:01pm |
Alas, he now tiptoes thru the tulips in heaven. The part of heaven where Tiny Tims go, that is. At least the ukelele will be a nice change from all that crappy harp playing.
| 13 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:38:59pm |
reminds me of Vincent Furnier, but I guess he came first...
| 14 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:39:18pm |
| 15 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:39:33pm |
| 16 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:40:17pm |
The kids are looking at him like 'who is this weirdo'?
| 18 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:40:58pm |
/I wonder how many of those kids grew up to be congresspersons?
| 19 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:41:34pm |
After today watching ww2 in HD there is one thing that is stuck in my head
War is young men men dying and old men talking
| 21 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:43:53pm |
re: #17 beekiller
I know what you mean.
| 23 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:44:09pm |
So ahead of the curve: one of the first performance artists and all-around freak at a time when there weren't any. Does anyone remember Steve Paul's The Scene club in NYC in the mid-to-late sixties?
| 25 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:44:57pm |
re: #20 bosforus
My preferred falsetto is Klaus Nomi:
I like John Mayer. Does he count? Too bad- I'm linking him anyways.
| 27 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:45:38pm |
re: #20 bosforus
My preferred falsetto is Klaus Nomi:
[Video]
Upding for Klaus! See him in season 2 of the Venture Bros along with Iggy Pop and David Bowie. :D
(my actual favorite falsetto vocalist these days is Matt Bellamy from Muse, great pipes, great band)
| 28 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:45:55pm |
re: #20 bosforus
Replying to myself bc I have not tested the new feature yet.
| 29 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:46:01pm |
| 30 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:46:04pm |
He sure carved out a niche for himself but I can't help but wonder what else he could have done with his vocal potential.
| 32 |
Mark Pennington Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:46:26pm |
re: #21 Charles
I know what you mean.
You have to know that I like you if I sat through the whole thing.
| 33 |
mj Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:46:53pm |
Tiny Tim and and Dylan were friends. Dylan discusses him in his book
Chronicles.
For those looking for some interesting pairings, here's an album you should have:
The Band, Bob Dylan & Tiny Tim:
Down in the Basement
[Link: theband.hiof.no...]
| 34 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:46:53pm |
re: #27 WindUpBird
(my actual favorite falsetto vocalist these days is Matt Bellamy from Muse, great pipes, great band)
You'll get no argument from me about that. Muse is teh bawm.
| 35 |
William of Orange Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:47:12pm |
Indeed quite strange. And seeing this is from the sixties, Tiny Tim must have been a clairvoyant! The icecaps are indeed melting.
(Well, not a good one, since he did not predict to be dead these days...)
| 36 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:47:27pm |
| 37 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:47:44pm |
re: #30 Bobibutu
He sure carved out a niche for himself but I can't help but wonder what else he could have done with his vocal potential.
Eh, I prefer an authentic artist who does totally weird shit and perhaps tosses away some fame and fortune in favor of their vision, than someone who is just mercenary with their skills.
| 38 |
Virginia Plain Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:47:46pm |
Grey Lagoons:
| 39 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:48:05pm |
re: #25 Sharmuta
I like John Mayer. Does he count? Too bad- I'm linking him anyways.
[Video]
not enough...tough crowd, or maybe something else
| 40 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:48:12pm |
To help some of you jog up your memories:
[Link: streetsyoucrossed.blogspot.com...]
Steve Paul's was also one of the first prototypical rock scenes, pre-dating Max's Kansas City (upstairs, where the Velvet Underground debuted) and everything that came after...
| 41 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:48:21pm |
re: #35 William of Orange
(Well, not a good one, since he did not predict to be dead these days...)
Maybe he just didn't want to write a song about it. :D
| 42 |
wrenchwench Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:48:40pm |
Tiny Tim at the peak of his talents.
And what a peak it was. RIP.
| 43 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:50:06pm |
| 44 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:50:16pm |
re: #34 bosforus
You'll get no argument from me about that. Muse is teh bawm.
And I'm someone who generally does not like falsettos in rock! But he's just tremendous.
| 45 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:51:14pm |
| 46 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:51:26pm |
re: #37 WindUpBird
Eh, I prefer an authentic artist who does totally weird shit and perhaps tosses away some fame and fortune in favor of their vision, than someone who is just mercenary with their skills.
You have a good point. There is a gal who is an outstanding concert pianist ... her name escapes me - absolute nutcake with her stage body moves ... but she can play.
| 48 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:52:54pm |
re: #43 Racer X
Heh. My kitten Zoe talks like that too.
| 49 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:53:44pm |
re: #44 WindUpBird
And I'm someone who generally does not like falsettos in rock! But he's just tremendous.
what?...too bad (in rock)
| 51 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:54:42pm |
I hate to admit that I was a massive Tiny Tim fan as a small boy. Had tip toe through the tulips on '45. I may have even had a Ukulele.
| 52 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:54:59pm |
re: #47 wrenchwench
I'd play it but Mrs. bos is currently occupying my speakers with a brand of music which is about 180 degrees opposite of Muse and my tastes. Let's see exactly who this artist is... Brandi Carlile? Never heard of her.
| 53 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:55:03pm |
Wow. I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be one of those kids.
| 54 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:55:19pm |
Tiny Tim was actually a pretty smart, interesting guy.
When you have absolutely nothing to do that is ever going to be fairly important... read his Wiki.
| 55 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:55:21pm |
re: #48 Killgore Trout
Heh. My kitten Zoe talks like that too.
Mine talks like that only when he sees a bird outside.
| 56 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:55:45pm |
| 57 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:56:04pm |
re: #49 albusteve
what?...too bad (in rock)
I tend to prefer gravelly and raw vocals. I'm not 100% opposed to falsetto, it's just that it's got to be quite good in order to get over my hurdle.
| 58 |
wrenchwench Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:56:16pm |
re: #52 bosforus
I'd play it but Mrs. bos is currently occupying my speakers with a brand of music which is about 180 degrees opposite of Muse and my tastes. Let's see exactly who this artist is... Brandi Carlile? Never heard of her.
I know nothing about Muse, but I was looking for a good version of that song, and it was my fave.
| 59 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:56:43pm |
re: #51 Bagua
I hate to admit that I was a massive Tiny Tim fan as a small boy. Had tip toe through the tulips on '45. I may have even had a Ukulele.
if you can't recall the ukelele you are unaccountable...funny that tho
| 62 |
Right Brain Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:58:37pm |
I reading Inherent Vice, Pynchon is my favorite, anybody else?
| 63 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:58:53pm |
re: #53 Irenicum
Wow. I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be one of those kids.
I think most survived unharmed, unlike the children of the Marilyn Manson crowd
| 64 |
Right Brain Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:59:00pm |
I am reading Inherent Vice, Pynchon is my favorite, anybody else?
| 65 |
William of Orange Sat, Nov 21, 2009 5:59:48pm |
Any David Lynch fans outhere??!
The DVD of Mashed in Plastic is out. Highly recomended mashups of song which featured in his films. You can download thetracks for free!!!
Watch Colatron's version of "Crying".
Waxaudio's "Tori's Derainged".
Totom's "I've told every little pumpkin".
| 66 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:00:09pm |
You cannot go wrong with the video for Muse's Knights of Cydonia, which makes references to The Good the Bad and the Ugly, Krull, and Star Wars. Muse at times sounds like Styx on steroids.
| 67 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:02:16pm |
re: #63 albusteve
I think most survived unharmed, unlike the children of the Marilyn Manson crowd
Oh, relax and lay off the get-off-my-lawn-damn-kids act. ;-) Marilyn Manson is just the latest shockrock iteration, borrowing from Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Alice Cooper. There's some good tunes he's done!
| 68 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:02:31pm |
re: #29 Racer X
Lady Gaga vs. Christopher Walken vs. Cartman
[Video]
What a GREAT trio!
LOL!
I don't want to know how you found that...
| 69 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:03:06pm |
OK, cat theme.
Maeking of a Halloween Fambly Portrait
From the makers of Cat Yodeling: An Engineers Guide to Cats ™
| 70 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:03:25pm |
re: #33 mj
Tiny Tim and and Dylan were friends.
I remember that song:
Well, Tiny Tim and Bobby Dylan,
They were the best of friends.
So when Tiny Tim needed money one day,
Dylan quickly pulled out a roll of tens
| 72 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:04:11pm |
| 73 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:04:29pm |
| 74 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:05:26pm |
re: #59 albusteve
if you can't recall the ukelele you are unaccountable...funny that tho
Perhaps I should phrase that "I may not want to admit that I had a ukulele."
I would have been quite happy in that audience.
| 75 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:06:40pm |
re: #67 WindUpBird
Oh, relax and lay off the get-off-my-lawn-damn-kids act. ;-) Marilyn Manson is just the latest shockrock iteration, borrowing from Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Alice Cooper. There's some good tunes he's done!
try as you may...you are very reactive, and too easily dismiss garbage as worthwhile music
| 76 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:07:03pm |
re: #73 metrolibertarian
Are they? I've heard almost nothing but glowing reviews about them, I have a indie music snob friend who is borderline obsessed with Fleet Foxes. It's not my thing, but they sound great.
| 77 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:09:04pm |
re: #65 William of Orange
Any David Lynch fans outhere??!
The DVD of Mashed in Plastic is out. Highly recomended mashups of song which featured in his films. You can download thetracks for free!!!
Watch Colatron's version of "Crying".
[Video]
I recently watched "Mulholland Drive" (again). Totally sumptuous.
| 78 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:11:40pm |
re: #75 albusteve
try as you may...you are very reactive, and too easily dismiss garbage as worthwhile music
Wait what? So let me get this straight. I'm somehow "reactive" for NOT dismissing entire genres of talented and sincere artists who have been making music for decades? Dude, I'm not the one who just shits on entire musical movements with a click of my capslock-impaired fingers. ;-)
...oh it's all shit...don't even worry about it...i hate everything that isn't the stones...here's something from 1972, that's the last year music wasn't garbage...
Is this like how you have to destroy the village to save it? Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia!
| 79 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:11:56pm |
re: #76 WindUpBird
My super indie music friends seem to be cold to lukewarm towards Fleet Foxes, with the exception of the girl who got me hooked on them.
| 80 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:13:33pm |
re: #76 WindUpBird
However I'm sure for my hipster friends it's because the band's name doesn't contain a stupid assortment of random words that collectively mean nothing. "If the band's name isn't full blown idiotic, they can't possibly be good" is their calculus I believe.
| 81 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:13:47pm |
Here is the classic Tiny Tim performing TipToe Through The Tulips,on one of my favourite shows of the era.
| 82 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:14:08pm |
re: #79 metrolibertarian
My super indie music friends seem to be cold to lukewarm towards Fleet Foxes, with the exception of the girl who got me hooked on them.
Damned hipsters. :D
| 83 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:14:36pm |
| 84 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:17:18pm |
re: #80 metrolibertarian
However I'm sure for my hipster friends it's because the band's name doesn't contain a stupid assortment of random words that collectively mean nothing. "If the band's name isn't full blown idiotic, they can't possibly be good" is their calculus I believe.
My favorite band names are generally one or two words that are meaningful to the artists and deliver a visceral punch. Killing Joke, The Tea Party, Neurosis, Mastodon, Monster Magnet, Electric Wizard, Thought Industry, Led Zeppelin, The Cure.
| 85 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:19:05pm |
re: #78 WindUpBird
...oh it's all shit...don't even worry about it...i hate everything that isn't the stones...here's something from1972, 1792 that's the last year music wasn't garbage...
| 86 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:19:18pm |
I must say, to my personal horror, that this thread is pretty calm ever since Congress has decided to turn this country into a Marxist-collectivist Soviet-style nation by invoking a parliamentary procedure to bring a bill to a floor debate.
Wake up people! /Beck, Palin, Malkin, Fox News Channel, Reason Magazine, National Review, and WND
| 87 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:19:34pm |
Timing is everything. If that song and video were released today, Tiny Tim would be acclaimed as an environmental hero and the song...uh...well...uh...never mind.
| 88 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:20:38pm |
re: #78 WindUpBird
Wait what? So let me get this straight. I'm somehow "reactive" for NOT dismissing entire genres of talented and sincere artists who have been making music for decades? Dude, I'm not the one who just shits on entire musical movements with a click of my capslock-impaired fingers. ;-)
...oh it's all shit...don't even worry about it...i hate everything that isn't the stones...here's something from 1972, that's the last year music wasn't garbage...
Is this like how you have to destroy the village to save it? Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia!
two words...
Marilyn Manson
bwahahaha!...good one...and I don't hate everything that isn't the Stones...you sound frusrated...you're generation has advanced music very little when you consider MM and the like...entire musical movements to you is pidgeonholing every new sort of twang that comes out of a producers brain...this, that, and the other thing is a 'new movement'...gimme a break, it's as irrelevant as a three dollar bill to anyone but the self indulgent phenomonalists that grew up with theatrical riffs from MTV...what a joke
| 89 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:21:00pm |
re: #81 Bagua
Here is the classic Tiny Tim performing TipToe Through The Tulips,on one of my favourite shows of the era.
What an eccentric he was. At the same time there's something oddly old fashioned about his presentation and musical style.
| 90 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:21:10pm |
re: #72 Racer X
Well, well, well... upding for great RLB.
Saw him in Miami near the end, Well, well, well.
Was in the company of my lunatic Cuban Attorney, different experience really, as he grew more liquored up as the evening moved on and was wondering through the crowd loudly mimicking Well, well, well it was hard to tell them apart.
| 91 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:21:31pm |
re: #85 Decatur Deb
ahahah for the win :D
(I love Toccata and Fugue in D minor. All goths love Bach)
| 92 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:21:44pm |
re: #78 WindUpBird
Wait what? So let me get this straight. I'm somehow "reactive" for NOT dismissing entire genres of talented and sincere artists who have been making music for decades? Dude, I'm not the one who just shits on entire musical movements with a click of my capslock-impaired fingers. ;-)
...oh it's all shit...don't even worry about it...i hate everything that isn't the stones...here's something from 1972, that's the last year music wasn't garbage...Is this like how you have to destroy the village to save it? Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia!
Back in the day it was called the Generation Gap. Show a little respect.
| 94 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:22:00pm |
re: #84 WindUpBird
You're clearly not going to be earning any scene points among the hipster/indie crowd by listening to bands with those names. At a minimum band's name has to contain 3/4 as many words as the opening sentence from "A Tale of Two Cities" and the syntax must be put together by Orly Taitz.
| 96 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:23:51pm |
| 97 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:24:01pm |
re: #86 metrolibertarian
I must say, to my personal horror, that this thread is pretty calm ever since Congress has decided to turn this country into a Marxist-collectivist Soviet-style nation by invoking a parliamentary procedure to bring a bill to a floor debate.
Wake up people! /Beck, Palin, Malkin, Fox News Channel, Reason Magazine, National Review, and WND
There is a point of diminishing return. On this we are screwed. Pound on your congresscritter all you want ... the die is cast. Wasted energy. Save it for another day.
| 98 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:24:18pm |
| 99 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:25:00pm |
Tiny Tim used to go on Howard Stern's show regularly. Bet you didn't know that he was a creationist, did you? Adam and Eve, the whole deal. Surprised the heck out of me too when I first him talk about it.
| 101 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:28:37pm |
| 102 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:29:15pm |
| 104 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:30:47pm |
re: #88 albusteve
two words...
Marilyn Manson
bwahahaha!...good one...and I don't hate everything that isn't the Stones...you sound frusrated...you're generation has advanced music very little when you consider MM and the like...entire musical movements to you is pidgeonholing every new sort of twang that comes out of a producers brain...this, that, and the other thing is a 'new movement'...gimme a break, it's as irrelevant as a three dollar bill to anyone but the self indulgent phenomonalists that grew up with theatrical riffs from MTV...what a joke
I'm always frustrated when I'm confronted with closed minds and bad grammar. There are so many logical fallacies in what you are saying to me, it's like a buffet. I cannot possibly consume it all. You are calcified, set in your opinions, and seemingly hostile to anything that is younger than your generation. Your cranky grandpa song-and-dance is as old as the stars and the moon and the sky.
Somehow, I can appreciate music that was created before I was born, and I can also appreciate music from my generation. Because I'm not hostile and angry and dismissive. I could bring up a hundred examples in good faith illustrating in exhaustive detail how you don't know what you're talking about, but what would it matter? You'll still fire out your lowercase ellipsis refrigerator poetry about how the kids' tunes all suck.
It isn't a race, man. New music isn't an attack on old music. It's art. And if you think people stopped making relevant art after your generation, then I truly wish upon a star for a special delivery of whatever bud you're smoking.
| 105 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:32:18pm |
re: #103 Racer X
I like both kinds of music.
"It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?"
| 106 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:32:59pm |
my favorite bands names are...
my indie obsessed friend...
all Goths love Bach...
bwahaha!
so...who's your favorite Monster Magnet?
| 107 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:33:39pm |
| 108 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:34:44pm |
re: #99 borgcube
Tiny Tim used to go on Howard Stern's show regularly. Bet you didn't know that he was a creationist, did you? Adam and Eve, the whole deal. Surprised the heck out of me too when I first him talk about it.
Our water aerobics and general trainer at the fitness center is a creationist - he is very, very good at what he does and a really great guy. But wow - blew me away at a party when it came out. A significant number of the folks there were as well.
I guess I'm just creationophobic ... that did not seem to be an appropriate time to start a debate.
| 109 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:36:03pm |
| 110 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:36:12pm |
re: #106 albusteve
my favorite bands names are...
my indie obsessed friend...
all Goths love Bach...bwahaha!
so...who's your favorite Monster Magnet?
You're truly a work of art. See you at Sizzler! ;-)
| 111 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:36:39pm |
re: #108 Bobibutu
Our water aerobics and general trainer at the fitness center is a creationist - he is very, very good at what he does and a really great guy. But wow - blew me away at a party when it came out. A significant number of the folks there were as well.
I guess I'm just creationophobic ... that did not seem to be an appropriate time to start a debate.
You cannot debate faith. Its personal.
Like music.
| 113 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:37:58pm |
re: #98 ryannon
I hadn't seen that before!
Thank you!
Adore Christopher Walken!
| 114 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:38:35pm |
Tiny Tim was neither Tiny nor named Timothy.
Discuss.
| 115 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:39:06pm |
| 116 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:39:09pm |
re: #111 Racer X
You cannot debate faith with a fitness trainer. Its painful.
Like traction.
Tampered.
| 117 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:40:50pm |
| 119 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:41:39pm |
| 120 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:42:09pm |
God Isn't Real, by eventual Country legend Robbie Fulks:
| 121 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:42:17pm |
re: #104 WindUpBird
I'm always frustrated when I'm confronted with closed minds and bad grammar. There are so many logical fallacies in what you are saying to me, it's like a buffet. I cannot possibly consume it all. You are calcified, set in your opinions, and seemingly hostile to anything that is younger than your generation. Your cranky grandpa song-and-dance is as old as the stars and the moon and the sky.
Somehow, I can appreciate music that was created before I was born, and I can also appreciate music from my generation. Because I'm not hostile and angry and dismissive. I could bring up a hundred examples in good faith illustrating in exhaustive detail how you don't know what you're talking about, but what would it matter? You'll still fire out your lowercase ellipsis refrigerator poetry about how the kids' tunes all suck.
It isn't a race, man. New music isn't an attack on old music. It's art. And if you think people stopped making relevant art after your generation, then I truly wish upon a star for a special delivery of whatever bud you're smoking.
whatever...Marilyn Manson is just terrible, third rate crap wherever it came from...I could care less what you define as good or even as music...I defend R/R, R&B and the blues for what they are, and they have little to do with what you consider your favorite stuff...that's where it began with MM and if you consider that quality music you may take a hit for it...don't freak out...and my grammer has nothing to do with anything here...pointing out that it does not meet your standards is small of you...(rock) on!...hahaha!
| 122 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:43:21pm |
One of the short lived band Zwan's greatest creations:
God's Gonna Set This World On Fire
| 123 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:43:58pm |
re: #117 WindUpBird
Well, rumor has it that Landrieu got 100 million for her state (and her vote?) such ethics - leg tingling again. But that's what we send them for, right?
| 124 |
lawhawk Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:47:09pm |
re: #123 Bobibutu
Triple it. She's crowing that she got $300 million for Louisiana, and she had Jindal and Sebelius' blessing.
And we all know how well NOLA and Louisiana has stewarded monies in the past...
| 125 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:47:12pm |
re: #123 Bobibutu
Well, rumor has it that Landrieu got 100 million for her state (and her vote?) such ethics - leg tingling again. But that's what we send them for, right?
She said today that it was more like 300. It smells, but if it didn't work like that, it might not work at all.
| 126 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:47:25pm |
re: #122 bosforus
One of the short lived band Zwan's greatest creations:
God's Gonna Set This World On Fire[Video]
Is this one of the ones that play their instruments so hard they bleed and the crowd shifts into awe?
| 127 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:48:18pm |
re: #124 lawhawk
Triple it. She's crowing that she got $300 million for Louisiana, and she had Jindal and Sebelius' blessing.
And we all know how well NOLA and Louisiana has stewarded monies in the past...
Damn! I am sooo out of touch.
| 128 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:48:25pm |
re: #124 lawhawk
Triple it. She's crowing that she got $300 million for Louisiana, and she had Jindal and Sebelius' blessing.
And we all know how well NOLA and Louisiana has stewarded monies in the past...
Keep under refrigeration.
| 129 |
Frogmarch Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:48:33pm |
re: #69 Gus 802
OK, cat theme.
Maeking of a Halloween Fambly Portrait
From the makers of Cat Yodeling: An Engineers Guide to Cats ™
Excellent. My cats would never let me do that. I'd end up bloody, and possibly on life support in the ER.
| 130 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:48:53pm |
re: #126 Bobibutu
Is this one of the ones that play their instruments so hard they bleed and the crowd shifts into awe?
This particular song? Yes. This particular band? No. Billy Corgan (lead singer)? Depends on which side of the bed he wakes up on.
| 131 |
Frogmarch Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:49:41pm |
Senator Reid tonight:
Today we vote whether to even discuss one of the greatest issues of our generation - indeed, one of the greatest issues this body has ever face: whether this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and DEATH, which can be prevented by decent health care for all.
Kick ass. It's about time. Orwellian, dude.
| 132 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:50:07pm |
re: #117 WindUpBird
There's a trio of objectives in practical opposition to one another:
The 60-39 vote cleared the way for a bruising, full-scale debate beginning after Thanksgiving on the legislation, which is designed to
(1) extend coverage to roughly 31 million who lack it,
(2) crack down on insurance company practices that deny or dilute benefits
(3) and curtail the growth of spending on medical care nationally.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 133 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:50:13pm |
re: #125 Decatur Deb
She said today that it was more like 300. It smells, but if it didn't work like that, it might not work at all.
depends on the definition of 'work'...it's a disgrace imo, but the sun will rise and birds will sing tomorrow...ho hum, this is our culture...Glenn Beck and $300 bribes
| 134 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:50:34pm |
| 135 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:50:42pm |
re: #67 WindUpBird
Oh, relax and lay off the get-off-my-lawn-damn-kids act. ;-) Marilyn Manson is just the latest shockrock iteration, borrowing from Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Alice Cooper. There's some good tunes he's done!
I love the dead, before they're cold.
Their bluing flesh for me to hold.
Cadaver eyes upon me see
Nothing
| 136 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:51:04pm |
re: #126 Bobibutu
Is this one of the ones that play their instruments so hard they bleed and the crowd shifts into awe?
But here's an acoustic song from them that's 1000x mellower and much friendlier on the ears.
| 137 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:51:28pm |
re: #120 negativ
That's an offensive video to post on a pleasant evening.
| 138 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:51:45pm |
re: #131 Frogmarch
What do you mean I won't die!? I've treated this body like shit!
| 139 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:51:52pm |
| 141 |
amused Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:52:39pm |
I bet Joe Lieberman has extracted far more than $300 million for his caucus with the Dems.
| 142 |
Frogmarch Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:52:46pm |
re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
What do you mean I won't die!? I've treated this body like shit!
We are all gonna LIVE! Forever. Senator Reid promised.
| 143 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:52:52pm |
re: #108 Bobibutu
I know at least one for sure. Great guy. Good friend. MD. Smart cookie. We just don't discuss it and that's that. He did put out his feelers once. Since we share many political beliefs, I think he automatically assumed I was one of the flock. I put that to bed quickly and it hasn't been raised since by either of us and hasn't effected our friendship whatsoever.
I enter all relationships knowing that about 90% of the time I'm going to be interacting with people who believe in something I find completely absurd to say the least. It's on me to deal with it.
| 144 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:53:37pm |
re: #131 Frogmarch
Senator Reid tonight: this nation will finally guarantee its people the right to live free from the fear of illness and DEATH, which can be prevented by decent health care for all.
Like I said ... sooo out of touch. SIGN ME UP! All is forgiven. I hope he is re-elected.
| 145 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:53:57pm |
re: #133 albusteve
depends on the definition of 'work'...it's a disgrace imo, but the sun will rise and birds will sing tomorrow...ho hum, this is our culture...Glenn Beck and $300 bribes
Things get done. (And that was 300 million for her state. That's why the voters send people to congress.)
| 146 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:55:05pm |
re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
What do you mean I won't die!? I've treated this body like shit!
Did you ever see The Hunger?
| 147 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:55:19pm |
re: #124 lawhawk
Triple it. She's crowing that she got $300 million for Louisiana, and she had Jindal and Sebelius' blessing.
And we all know how well NOLA and Louisiana has stewarded monies in the past...
Landrieu's brother Mitch is Louisiana's Lt. Gov (we elect Gov and Lt. Gov separately, not part of one ticket).
When Landrieu was in the La. legislature many many moons ago, she was known as a completely airheaded do-nothing. I think she's still an air-head; but she has figured out how to somehow get things done.
I can't stand her.
| 148 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:55:50pm |
re: #143 borgcube
Right! If I have a problem with their belief - it's my problem - not theirs.
| 149 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:56:22pm |
re: #98 ryannon
Never can get enough of Christopher Walken.
He's the Prince of Understated Weirdness:
[Video]
I just made a purchase at Amazon!
Thanks, again!
| 150 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:58:10pm |
re: #145 Decatur Deb
Things get done. (And that was 300 million for her state. That's why the voters send people to congress.)
the things that get done are bad for America...voters send people to congress to become political whores, it's true...if you are happy with this 'system', you are part of the problem
| 151 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:58:48pm |
re: #145 Decatur Deb
Things get done. (And that was 300 million for her state. That's why the voters send people to congress.)
True.
But there are many of us who believe NOLA has gotten more money, in donations from individuals as well as from the gov't, than it deserves. I keep wondering how long it will be able to use the Katrina disaster.
Mississippi has managed to put itself back together, and it suffered just as greatly. The southwestern part of Louisiana was damaged just as much from Rita as NOLA was from Katrina, and it's managed to get its act together.
I'm completely frustrated with NOLA and the way it is still using "Katrina" to get "free" stuff.
| 152 |
Frogmarch Sat, Nov 21, 2009 6:59:30pm |
re: #144 Bobibutu
Like I said ... sooo out of touch. SIGN ME UP! All is forgiven. I hope he is re-elected.
Totally. We are going to live forever, "free from fear of illness and death", and they are gonna pay for it. Viva Harry this-war-is-lost Reid.
| 153 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:01:19pm |
re: #145 Decatur Deb
Things get done. (And that was 300 million for her state. That's why the voters send people to congress.)
To whore for cash? And there I thought they were sent to uphold the constitution and make law for the good of the American people, silly me.
And how convenient that the senator from MA cast the deciding vote in the partisan stitch up, after conveniently changing the law again to subvert the Senate.
This will have repercussions.
| 154 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:01:51pm |
re: #151 reine.de.tout
Really? I thought the hurricane spawned by the Bu$h/Cheney/Halliburton Doomsday Weather Machine only targeted black people and democrats. Must need some fine tuning...
//
/Still waiting for Spike Lee to do a 'documentary' about the Texans displaced by Hurricane Ike.
| 156 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:02:27pm |
re: #151 reine.de.tout
I don't know how the restoration monies compare to the damage that was done. It might just be the down payment.
| 157 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:02:27pm |
re: #114 Fenway_Nation
Tiny Tim was neither Tiny nor named Timothy.
Discuss.
And Kirk Douglas isn't his name either.
| 158 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:02:31pm |
re: #148 Bobibutu
Not always easy, especially when what should remain a personal belief goes beyond that. And given the subject we know we're talking about here, it's usually not started from my side of the deal, although many in my camp are just as intolerant and many times far worse even though smaller in numbers.
| 159 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:02:40pm |
re: #136 bosforus
But here's an acoustic song from them that's 1000x mellower and much friendlier on the ears.
[Video]
I used to spend a lot of time in the Flores Sea (Indonesia) - shuttled around by oil workboats - nothing to do for days in xit - had a stereo, headphones, tapes and a little weed. Check with the Capt. if he minded if I took a few tokes. No prob. This would have made the cut listening on h'phones while sailing to wherever - watching the sunset over glassy seas.
Ahh memories.
| 160 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:03:57pm |
re: #142 Frogmarch
We are all gonna LIVE! Forever. Senator Reid promised.
Great, now Harry thinks he's Valeria from Conan the Barbarian.
| 161 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:05:08pm |
re: #150 albusteve
the things that get done are bad for America...voters send people to congress to become political whores, it's true...if you are happy with this 'system', you are part of the problem
Some of the things our representatives do are bad. Most are good. This system took 200 years to evolve, and we can either fine-tune it or give it to Glen Beck to "fix".
| 162 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:06:03pm |
re: #157 solomonpanting
And Kirk Douglas isn't his name either.
I read "The Ragman's Son". Was excellent.
| 164 |
albusteve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:07:04pm |
re: #161 Decatur Deb
Some of the things our representatives do are bad. Most are good. This system took 200 years to evolve, and we can either fine-tune it or give it to Glen Beck to "fix".
maybe Beck could do better then...who knows?...the feds are out of control and too many people just don't seem to care...it's the way things are done...not good enough for me
| 165 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:07:37pm |
I spend all day sitting in front of the computer processing images (which I took in Tokyo a couple of years ago)... bleary eyed by now.
Tiny Tim seems somehow appropriate for a day like today.
| 166 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:08:04pm |
re: #151 reine.de.tout
[...]
I'm completely frustrated with NOLA and the way it is still using "Katrina" to get "free" stuff.
You'd be even more frustrated if you lived in Houston and experienced the crime wave the evacuees brought with them.
| 167 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:08:39pm |
| 168 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:10:04pm |
re: #160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Here's a better Harry quote from Conan the Barbarian...
(Remember to read this with a James Earl Jones voice in your head)
Thulsa Doom: Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they learn why they fear the night.
| 169 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:11:02pm |
re: #158 borgcube
Not always easy, especially when what should remain a personal belief goes beyond that. And given the subject we know we're talking about here, it's usually not started from my side of the deal, although many in my camp are just as intolerant and many times far worse even though smaller in numbers.
Yeah - I'm a believe what you want just don't put it on me kind of guy. As long as you are pulling slack and not in my way with it. RGR - But I may suggest something that may challenge that belief if I feel there is a worthwhile outcome for both of us. If it tanks - it tanks. Move on.
| 170 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:11:03pm |
re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Here's a better Harry quote from Conan the Barbarian...
(Remember to read this with a James Earl Jones voice in your head)
Thulsa Doom: Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they learn why they fear the night.
Boo!
| 171 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:11:13pm |
re: #168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
"Couple of years ago, it was just another snake cult."
| 172 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:12:21pm |
re: #124 lawhawk
Triple it. She's crowing that she got $300 million for Louisiana, and she had Jindal and Sebelius' blessing.
And we all know how well NOLA and Louisiana has stewarded monies in the past...
Landrieu, Jindal and Sebelius: whores one and all.
| 173 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:13:42pm |
Obama's campaign promises of Enduring Bipartisan Action is proving to be a bold faced lie.
Pushing a major economic change like this on a straight partisan vote will make history and fracture this country.
| 174 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:14:16pm |
re: #160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Great, now Harry thinks he's Valeria from Conan the Barbarian.
WHAT! You are just now knowing this!
| 176 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:15:24pm |
re: #161 Decatur Deb
Some of the things our representatives do are bad. Most are good. This system took 200 years to evolve, and we can either fine-tune it or give it to Glen Beck to "fix".
Most are not good. Their "good" deeds have accumulated to the point of making this nation unrecognizable in form and function in my lifetime, let alone my parents and grandparents. The system is bankrupt, top to bottom, and not just fiscally. Fine tuning ain't gonna get it done. Wholesale changes are in order. Adding on trillions more in debt to the already tens of trillions of debt (most of it due to the last major "good" thing Congress did with the healthcare system 45 years ago) and unfunded liabilities is going about 180 degrees the wrong way in my opinion.
| 177 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:16:13pm |
re: #166 Bagua
You'd be even more frustrated if you lived in Houston and experienced the crime wave the evacuees brought with them.
I bet I would be!
Houston was great, just great.
How Houston managed to pull together a fully functioning shelter in a day or two while NOLA couldn't manage to get one operational with several days notice before the storm hit is a mystery to me.
| 178 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:17:01pm |
re: #176 borgcube
I appear to be someone who thinks a lot like you do. Thank you for expressing that sentiment with more clarity than I can.
| 179 |
joest1973 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:17:11pm |
Maybe it was this song that convinced all the Global Cooling junk scientists to jump to the global warming hysteria. Oh No... THE ICE CAPS ARE MELTING!
| 180 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:17:24pm |
re: #163 bosforus
Sounds exceedingly lovely.
I would leave my stereo and tapes for my buddy who was on the next cycle while I got to work and he enjoyed sunsets. The Capt. became the custodian of the gear for several months.
| 181 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:17:29pm |
re: #173 Bagua
Obama's campaign promises of Enduring Bipartisan Action is proving to be a bold faced lie.
Pushing a major economic change like this on a straight partisan vote will make history and fracture this country.
well, yes... so now what?
| 182 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:17:46pm |
The point has been raised that a massive government health program will necessarily lead to a rationing of services. I wonder if the latest government announcement that women should wait until they're fifty before they start getting mammograms and that they don't need to be tested as often is a starting point to accomplish this rationing goal.
I hope I'm wrong, but can't help but wonder what other preventitve measures may become "unnecessary."
| 185 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:18:56pm |
re: #184 Sharmuta
I'm watching John Mayer in concert on my magic Television...
| 186 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:18:57pm |
re: #161 Decatur Deb
Some of the things our representatives do are bad. Most are good. This system took 200 years to evolve, and we can either fine-tune it or give it to Glen Beck to "fix".
I disagree, the alternative to dishonest and craven senators is not Glen Beck and a destruction of our system, it is to vote these morons out of office and set DC and this country straight.
| 187 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:19:00pm |
re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Physically or mentally?
| 188 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:19:37pm |
| 189 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:19:57pm |
| 190 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:20:06pm |
re: #176 borgcube
Most are not good. Their "good" deeds have accumulated to the point of making this nation unrecognizable in form and function in my lifetime, let alone my parents and grandparents. The system is bankrupt, top to bottom, and not just fiscally. Fine tuning ain't gonna get it done. Wholesale changes are in order. Adding on trillions more in debt to the already tens of trillions of debt (most of it due to the last major "good" thing Congress did with the healthcare system 45 years ago) and unfunded liabilities is going about 180 degrees the wrong way in my opinion.
I don't want to live in the country our grandparents would recognize. Technology alone drives us to change. We either learn to govern change or suffer for it. "The sky is falling" was coined by the first politician to lose an election.
| 192 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:21:20pm |
re: #191 Sharmuta
He's fantastic. Looks 16 years old, but he's fantastic.
| 193 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:22:14pm |
| 194 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:23:40pm |
| 195 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:24:18pm |
| 198 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:25:59pm |
re: #195 Bloodnok
North Korea?
(shhh! Maybe she's with Ed the Weatherman getting drunk all over the country - nah! That can't be it).
| 199 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:26:40pm |
re: #182 solomonpanting
Hey we can talk rationing all we want, as long as we understand every system "rations". By money, or age or whatever. We have to agree to limitations, the epic King Kong gorilla in the room.
By what measure will we agree all care for all people at all times is simply not possible?
Death Panels are the paranoia wrought by partisan crapola and the very real death panels. The ones at the insurance companies.
| 200 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:26:42pm |
re: #177 reine.de.tout
I bet I would be!
Houston was great, just great.
How Houston managed to pull together a fully functioning shelter in a day or two while NOLA couldn't manage to get one operational with several days notice before the storm hit is a mystery to me.
Two words: Ray Nagin.
| 201 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:27:19pm |
Howdy lizards. How's everyone's Saturday so far?
| 202 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:27:39pm |
re: #198 reine.de.tout
(shhh! Maybe she's with Ed the Weatherman getting drunk all over the country - nah! That can't be it).
I believe getting drunk with Ed violates the Geneva Convention.
| 203 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:27:50pm |
| 204 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:28:05pm |
re: #186 Bagua
I disagree, the alternative to dishonest and craven senators is not Glen Beck and a destruction of our system, it is to vote these morons out of office and set DC and this country straight.
Voting morons out is "fine tuning".
| 205 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:28:11pm |
re: #163 bosforus
Sounds exceedingly lovely.
If you ever get the chance to play in Indonesia - take it. The Flores Sea is "out there" - don't know if you can get there on a tourist visa now - but worth the effort. My time was back in the 70s. Surabaya Stew has more recent experiences on Java - still worth it. The main Mosque n Jarkata is worth the trip alone.
We used to joke (seriously) that marrying an Indonesian honey from a very wealthy family - take her to the States and then return with the grandkids from time to time would be heaven.
| 206 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:28:15pm |
re: #201 NJDhockeyfan
Howdy lizards. How's everyone's Saturday so far?
Calm. Gotta start packing soon for my upcoming week in Indiana though.
| 207 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:28:51pm |
re: #201 NJDhockeyfan
We're still waiting for the last true patriot to spring for our one-way plane ticket to PYongyang...
| 208 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:28:59pm |
re: #166 Bagua
You'd be even more frustrated if you lived in Houston and experienced the crime wave the evacuees brought with them.
Still going on?
| 209 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:29:06pm |
| 210 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:29:08pm |
re: #206 bosforus
Calm. Gotta start packing soon for my upcoming week in Indiana though.
What, you're going to be there a whole day?
| 211 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:29:56pm |
re: #205 Bobibutu
I can't currently afford to travel, but there is much of the world that I'd like to see. I'll keep Indonesia in mind.
| 212 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:30:02pm |
re: #206 bosforus
Calm. Gotta start packing soon for my upcoming week in
IndianaNorth Korea though.
/evidence of tampering.
| 215 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:30:59pm |
| 216 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:31:08pm |
re: #210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
What, you're going to be there a whole day?
I get that joke. I grew up in New Hampshire.
| 218 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:32:15pm |
re: #176 borgcube
Ahhh you speak of JBJs "Great Society"?
Man were we had. And IRA/401Ks/403bs?
Greatest scam for the brokers and the IRS in history.
| 220 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:32:51pm |
| 221 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:33:08pm |
| 222 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:33:14pm |
re: #217 Sharmuta
Like Visa, Sharmuta is everywhere you want to be...
WOW!
You take charge cards?
///
| 223 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:33:18pm |
| 224 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:33:23pm |
re: #217 Sharmuta
I missed your joke this AM, thought you were in DPRK on some nuke task.
| 225 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:34:32pm |
re: #214 bosforus
Nein. The whole week.
Then that would be a month...
Well I spent a week there one day.
-John Denver
| 226 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:02pm |
re: #190 Decatur Deb
I understand that. I wasn't talking about technology and material things overall. I like the goodies too.
But, if (what is it?) 60 trillion in debt and unfunded liabilities which only 30 years ago was a mere fraction of that number doesn't concern you, or if you think that yet mountains of more laws and good deeds from a bunch of career lawyers on Capitol Hill are going to fine tune that mess and stop the money printing, then I don't think there's anything I can say. Except this: I find that to be as ludicrous as people who think the Earth is 6000 years old. Talk about faith!
| 227 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:21pm |
re: #218 Bobibutu
Ahhh you speak of JBJs "Great Society"?
Man were we had. And IRA/401Ks/403bs?
Greatest scam for the brokers and the IRS in history.
I hate it when neurons miss fire - LBJ.
| 228 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:27pm |
re: #203 reine.de.tout
Nagin remained oddly popular with his displaced constituents:
The evacuees' ratings of the performance of elected officials and government agencies in responding to the hurricane and flooding and later in dealing with relocation and assistance suggest that they blame mostly the federal government for the outcome. President George W. Bush received a favorable rating from only 15 percent at the time of the evacuation, from 28 percent during relocation in Houston, and from 20 percent almost a year after adjustment to living in Houston. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco's favorable approval rating during these same intervals were 26 percent, 40 percent and 34 percent, respectively. In contrast, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin received consistently higher approval ratings: 41, 46 and 46 percent for the same periods.
Houston Mayor Bill White received even higher consistent approval ratings when evacuees evaluated his performance in responding to Katrina since their arrival in Houston, with 74 and 76 percent giving a favorable ranking in November and July, respectively. FEMA did not fare as well; a favorable evaluation of 62 percent in November dropped to 41 percent in July. The evacuees also became less-satisfied with the Red Cross, as reflected in a favorable rating of 74 percent in November dropping to 66 percent in July. [Link: www.medicalnewstoday.com...]
| 229 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:28pm |
re: #224 Decatur Deb
I missed your joke this AM, thought you were in DPRK on some nuke task.
Riiight. The "joke"...
don'tblowmycoverdamnit
| 230 |
Daniel Ballard Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:30pm |
| 231 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:39pm |
re: #217 Sharmuta
For you, the Shamwow comparison test!
[Link: www.chicagotribune.com...]
| 232 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:36:50pm |
re: #223 NJDhockeyfan
I'm driving to Nashville for Thanksgiving.
Hopefully the weather is nice for ya. I haven't been east of Utah in ages, not counting a layover in Miami.
| 233 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:38:11pm |
re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Ah, gotcha! Maybe I'll learn some good Indiana jokes while I'm there. Cause that what people like to do, tell self-deprecating jokes about their state. :)
I'm sure I can make a Palin joke or two while I'm there.
| 234 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:38:24pm |
re: #232 bosforus
Hopefully the weather is nice for ya. I haven't been east of Utah in ages, not counting a layover in Miami.
That reminds me, I need to call a friend.
BBL
| 235 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:38:41pm |
re: #227 Bobibutu
I was trying to figure out if maybe I missed a great chunk of US history! :)
| 236 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:39:05pm |
re: #142 Frogmarch
We are all gonna LIVE! Forever. Senator Reid promised.
What a beautiful world this will be... what a glorious time to be free...
| 237 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:39:39pm |
re: #226 borgcube
I understand that. I wasn't talking about technology and material things overall. I like the goodies too.
But, if (what is it?) 60 trillion in debt and unfunded liabilities which only 30 years ago was a mere fraction of that number doesn't concern you, or if you think that yet mountains of more laws and good deeds from a bunch of career lawyers on Capitol Hill are going to fine tune that mess and stop the money printing, then I don't think there's anything I can say. Except this: I find that to be as ludicrous as people who think the Earth is 6000 years old. Talk about faith!
Beck may be nuts but this is the stuff he plugs people into. Notwithstanding a significant number of the folks on Cap. Hill are out and out criminals.
| 239 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:40:25pm |
re: #226 borgcube
The money is scary, but if it goes wrong we'll fix it. (All we need is another Clinton.) The technology isn't just goodies--Jefferson's government didn't need a Nuclear Regulatory Commission etc. , ours does.
| 240 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:40:51pm |
re: #233 bosforus
Ah, gotcha! Maybe I'll learn some good Indiana jokes while I'm there. Cause that what people like to do, tell self-deprecating jokes about their state. :)
I'm sure I can make a Palin joke or two while I'm there.
Why are we telling Indiana Jokes? Hoosiers are good people...
Must you make this California boy stand against you? What's up?
| 241 |
wee fury Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:42:20pm |
re: #201 NJDhockeyfan
Howdy lizards. How's everyone's Saturday so far?
Just testing the new comment return feature.
| 242 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:42:26pm |
re: #237 Bobibutu
Ahem...some of us were on to this before Beck and his chalkboard hit cable.
| 243 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:42:33pm |
re: #182 solomonpanting
The point has been raised that a massive government health program will necessarily lead to a rationing of services. I wonder if the latest government announcement that women should wait until they're fifty before they start getting mammograms and that they don't need to be tested as often is a starting point to accomplish this rationing goal.
I hope I'm wrong, but can't help but wonder what other preventitve measures may become "unnecessary."
You're wrong.
The new mammogram standards is something that College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (organization of board-certified specialists) have been working on for more than two years -- they still recommend early and often for women at high risk (family history, exposures to certain environmental factors), but for everyone else they found that yearly starting at age 40 was a radiation exposure that caused as many cancers as it was catching.
| 244 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:42:40pm |
re: #235 borgcube
I was trying to figure out if maybe I missed a great chunk of US history! :)
Yeah - JBJ - who in the hell was JBJ. I donknow. ;-)
| 245 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:43:01pm |
re: #240 HoosierHoops
Why are we telling Indiana Jokes? Hoosiers are good people...
Must you make this California boy stand against you? What's up?
OK Ok, geesh! I won't try to learn any Indiana jokes! Your last comment was like 230 comments away, I thought it was safe.
| 246 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:43:15pm |
re: #237 Bobibutu
Beck may be nuts but this is the stuff he plugs people into. Notwithstanding a significant number of the folks on Cap. Hill are out and out criminals.
like it t, i, z... criminals.
| 247 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:44:22pm |
re: #245 bosforus
Your last comment was like 230 comments away, I thought it was safe.
Hoops comes downcourt at 120 mph.
| 248 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:45:03pm |
re: #240 HoosierHoops
Why are we telling Indiana Jokes? Hoosiers are good people...
Must you make this California boy stand against you? What's up?
They're funnier than California jokes?
Hiya Hoops!
| 249 |
wee fury Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:45:21pm |
I like the new comment return feature. Thank you, Charles.
| 250 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:45:31pm |
re: #240 HoosierHoops
Why are we telling Indiana Jokes? Hoosiers are good people...
Must you make this California boy stand against you? What's up?
She grew up tall and she grew up right
With those Indiana boys on those Indiana nights...
| 251 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:46:07pm |
re: #208 Bobibutu
Still going on?
The crime wave never ended for those murdered and their families.
Crime is still up since their arrival.
| 252 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:46:18pm |
re: #242 borgcube
Ahem...some of us were on to this before Beck and his chalkboard hit cable.
Agreed - My grandmother (who raised me) railed on this back in the 40s and 50s. I opted out of the system long ago. Well - the mainstream system.
| 253 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:46:31pm |
re: #245 bosforus
OK Ok, geesh! I won't try to learn any Indiana jokes! Your last comment was like 230 comments away, I thought it was safe.
LOL
Are you coming to Indiana? I trash hoosiers cause I live here now..I don't let anybody else talk shit..You know how it is...Like somebody hitting on your brother.. Only I get to hit him
*wink*
| 255 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:47:47pm |
| 257 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:49:04pm |
re: #251 Bagua
The crime wave never ended for those murdered and their families.
Crime is still up since their arrival.
Haven't seen much in MSM onit - but then ...
| 258 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:49:10pm |
re: #248 Floral Giraffe
They're funnier than California jokes?
Hiya Hoops!
What's up my favorite poster?
Hope today finds you well my friend
| 259 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:50:01pm |
I have not read through the comments yet, the conversation has gone to who knows where...but dang Charles! This is one of the coolest things I've seen in a long time - on SO MANY LEVELS! Thank you!!
| 260 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:50:11pm |
| 261 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:51:10pm |
re: #260 HoosierHoops
Hey buddy! How are you doing this evening?
| 262 |
Sheepdogess Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:51:37pm |
It's bathroom cleaning time.
I needed a push, pretty moldy.
Thanks.
| 263 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:51:41pm |
And where did Tiny Tim get the idea of the ice caps melting that long ago? It's really curious.
| 264 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:51:57pm |
| 265 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:52:00pm |
re: #255 Bobibutu
Que? Sorry - gin and tonic tonight.
uhhh, i was agreeing with you...
(criminals on the hill does sound like a band name though)
| 266 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:52:18pm |
re: #238 bosforus
Glad I could help.
Guess I have to try again tomorrow. Thanks for that. Now I can try the new comment return feature with this post.
| 267 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:52:26pm |
re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey buddy! How are you doing this evening?
Wonderful...Kind regards Ludwig...
Watching football
| 268 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:53:09pm |
re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote
And where did Tiny Tim get the idea of the ice caps melting that long ago? It's really curious.
/they have been planning this since 1917...
| 269 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:53:17pm |
re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote
And where did Tiny Tim get the idea of the ice caps melting that long ago? It's really curious.
I don't know, but it should be the international anthem of the AGW hysteria crowd.
What I'm really curious about is who paid for the psychiatric treatment of those children.
| 270 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:53:20pm |
re: #267 HoosierHoops
Wonderful...Kind regards Ludwig...
Watching football
Right back at ya buddy. Just got back and checking in.
| 272 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:54:35pm |
Kewl, I like the new comment return feature. I remember when you had to refresh the whole page to see new comments. We've come a long way baby. This site is the most user-friendly site on the internet. Thanks Charles!
| 274 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:55:39pm |
Maybe it's my imagination, but it just got really really patriotic in here...
/
| 275 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:56:28pm |
re: #260 HoosierHoops
No shit? Lets do lunch...
I will politely decline the invitation. But if you happen to see me, the code words are, "blue sparrow green rabbit". Then I'll know it's you.
| 276 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:56:38pm |
re: #265 brookly red
uhhh, i was agreeing with you...
(criminals on the hill does sound like a band name though)
Damn - we could make millions singing and playing at Becks gatherings. Wana goforit?
/
| 277 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:56:53pm |
re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote
And where did Tiny Tim get the idea of the ice caps melting that long ago? It's really curious.
For a guess, at any given moment 50,000 people are making wild statements. The 2 that turn out right are prophets. The rest were nuts.
| 278 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:57:28pm |
re: #269 Cato the Elder
What I really meant to say was, the anti-hysteria people should play this loud on billboard-sized screens every time someone starts whinging about beachfront property in the Rockies.
| 279 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:57:37pm |
re: #250 ryannon
Such a cool video... on of my favorite Petty songs to boot!
| 280 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:58:32pm |
Uh oh, I smell a fatwa coming...
New Delhi: Causing major embarrassment to the UPA government at an international conference of jurists on terrorism organised in the capital, former Union law minister Ram Jethmalani termed the sacrosanct Non-Aligned Movement and Panchsheel Agreements as "evil" in the presence of president Pratibha Patil and Union law minister Veerappa Moily.
Jethmalani, addressing the conference in the capacity of president of All India Senior Advocates Association, minced no words in slamming the NAM and Panchsheel doctrines. As if his outbursts on issues of foreign policy weren't enough, the senior lawyer went ahead to imply that Islam's jihadi doctrine rendered "god a brothel keeper."
The lawyer wondered if the jihadi doctrine, propagating the belief allegedly held by the Wahabi sect that Muslims attaining martyrdom while fighting non-Muslims "get a place in heaven and the company of the opposite sex there," does not amount to saying that "God is a brothel keeper."
Jethmalani's remarks prompted Saudi Arabia's ambassador to India Faisal-al-Trad to walk out of the conference. The ambassador returned only after a clarification from Moily stating that the government did not share Jethmalani's views.
| 281 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:58:57pm |
re: #269 Cato the Elder
I don't know, but it should be the international anthem of the AGW hysteria crowd.
What I'm really curious about is who paid for the psychiatric treatment of those children.
Well to be fair, if you look at the actual science and then what is actually getting done about it by our ohhh so responsible leaders worldwide, freaking out a little is becoming the sane response.
If I had to have a theme for it, I would choose:
| 282 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 7:59:50pm |
re: #276 Bobibutu
Damn - we could make millions singing and playing at Becks gatherings. Wana goforit?
/
I prefer the ways to take money from idiots that require no talent... but don't let that stop you.
| 283 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:00:06pm |
re: #280 NJDhockeyfan
The lawyer wondered if the jihadi doctrine, propagating the belief allegedly held by the Wahabi sect that Muslims attaining martyrdom while fighting non-Muslims "get a place in heaven and the company of the opposite sex there," does not amount to saying that "God is a brothel keeper."
"Allegedly"?
| 284 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:01:14pm |
re: #275 bosforus
I will politely decline the invitation. But if you happen to see me, the code words are, "blue sparrow green rabbit". Then I'll know it's you.
Well ok..Eat lunch here my friend...
[Link: indianapolis.diningguide.com...]
| 285 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:02:01pm |
re: #280 NJDhockeyfan
The million dinar question is 'Are the virgins awarded to the martryrs being rewarded themselves...or punished?'
| 286 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:03:14pm |
re: #281 LudwigVanQuixote
Well to be fair, if you look at the actual science and then what is actually getting done about it by our ohhh so responsible leaders worldwide, freaking out a little is becoming the sane response.
As I have said so many times before, I fear what our oh-so-responsible leaders might take it into their heads to do about it far more than whatever they're currently omitting to do.
And I predicted nothing would come of København here, on this board, months and months ago. Whatever your feelings about it, don't I even get a prophet cookie for that? ;^)
| 287 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:03:35pm |
re: #278 Cato the Elder
What I really meant to say was, the anti-hysteria people should play this loud on billboard-sized screens every time someone starts whinging about beachfront property in the Rockies.
But what about beach front property in the suburbs of Baltimore, DC and pretty much ten or so miles inland from many of our major cities on the coasts? That is for real.
| 288 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:04:15pm |
re: #285 Fenway_Nation
The million dinar question is 'Are the virgins awarded to the martryrs being rewarded themselves...or punished?'
punished. & by the way I got a million dinars... cost about 600 bucks on line.
| 289 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:04:39pm |
| 290 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:04:42pm |
re: #287 LudwigVanQuixote
But what about beach front property in the suburbs of Baltimore, DC and pretty much ten or so miles inland from many of our major cities on the coasts? That is for real.
So be it. I never liked Baltimore when I lived there.
| 291 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:05:27pm |
| 292 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:06:13pm |
re: #282 brookly red
I prefer the ways to take money from idiots that require no talent... but don't let that stop you.
Shucks - I was really looking for moral support. This would have been so easy.
| 293 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:06:13pm |
re: #243 sagehen
You're wrong.
The new mammogram standards is something that College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (organization of board-certified specialists) have been working on for more than two years -- they still recommend early and often for women at high risk (family history, exposures to certain environmental factors), but for everyone else they found that yearly starting at age 40 was a radiation exposure that caused as many cancers as it was catching.
What was the name of the cancer specialist who served on the task force that made that recommendation?
| 295 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:06:52pm |
Crazy Glenn Beck claims the Statue of Liberty is holding the 10 Commandments...
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
More snippets from today's speech on the right sidebar.
| 296 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:07:07pm |
Hey, I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains. When will I have beach front property?
| 297 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:07:51pm |
| 298 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:08:04pm |
re: #269 Cato the Elder
I don't know, but it should be the international anthem of the AGW hysteria crowd.
What I'm really curious about is who paid for the psychiatric treatment of those children.
No psychiatric care needed for those kids - on the condition that they weren't subjected to the value judgments of psychotic adults. Children see through appearances and recognize the heart. Adults get hung up on appearances and in time, become heartless.
| 299 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:08:16pm |
What I want to know is, if the seas are already rising, why aren't people leaving the Netherlands and Venice in droves by now?
| 300 |
wee fury Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:08:51pm |
re: #296 NJDhockeyfan
Hey, I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains. When will I have beach front property?
2012. If the movie is accurate.
| 301 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:09:00pm |
I hope the kids who were subjected to that disturbed performance went on to live normal lives.
| 302 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:09:32pm |
| 303 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:09:45pm |
I have always found his music supremely annoying. And he looks like Alice Cooper repackaged for the preschool set.
Who in their right mind would have let their kids near that guy?
| 304 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:09:50pm |
re: #301 Mich-again
I hope the kids who were subjected to that disturbed performance went on to live normal lives.
Well, I lived through being exposed to Bozo the Clown on a live teevee stage, so maybe.
| 305 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:10:03pm |
re: #300 wee fury
If it is as accurate is it is bad...
*shudder*
| 306 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:10:15pm |
re: #294 Fenway_Nation
Whos dinars? Iraq?
yup... before the war they were worth about 4.23 dollars each... now toliet paper.
| 307 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:10:16pm |
re: #299 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is, if the seas are already rising, why aren't people leaving the Netherlands and Venice in droves by now?
Why isn't New Orleans completely under water right now? I know the levys were breached during a cat 5 hurricane but they were fixed. If the seas were rising wouldn't they levys be under water?
| 308 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:11:00pm |
re: #298 ryannon
No psychiatric care needed for those kids - on the condition that they weren't subjected to the value judgments of psychotic adults. Children see through appearances and recognize the heart. Adults get hung up on appearances and in time, become heartless.
Umm, c'mon, are you telling me that a six-year-old wouldn't be creeped out by that song? "To wash away the sin"?
| 309 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:11:31pm |
re: #299 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is, if the seas are already rising, why aren't people leaving the Netherlands and Venice in droves by now?
Venice has been building "Operation Moses" for 25 years or so, giant pneumatically-raised barriers from the acqua alta. The Nederlands has surrendered farmland back to the North Sea, but mostly for other eco reasons.
| 310 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:11:48pm |
re: #307 NJDhockeyfan
I checked the levees but the levees were dry.
| 311 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:15pm |
re: #307 NJDhockeyfan
Why isn't New Orleans completely under water right now? I know the levys were breached during a cat 5 hurricane but they were fixed. If the seas were rising wouldn't they levys be under water?
It's all going to happen in the future, you see, which we can now predict with confidence, just like we predicted Y2K in the 1990s and the ice age back in the 1970s.
Oh, wait...
| 312 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:29pm |
re: #310 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I checked the levees but the levees were dry.
Dick Cheney blew them up!
| 313 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:37pm |
re: #307 NJDhockeyfan
Why isn't New Orleans completely under water right now? I know the levys were breached during a cat 5 hurricane but they were fixed. If the seas were rising wouldn't they levys be under water?
yes but washington has a plan to fix it for about 8 trillion... but we gotta act now!
| 314 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:38pm |
re: #304 Cato the Elder
Well, I lived through being exposed to Bozo the Clown on a live teevee stage, so maybe.
I doubt that Bozo was ever hopped up on drugs like Tiny Time seemed to be. Of course, its even scarier to think that was Tiny Tim wasn't on something when he sang that song.
| 315 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:50pm |
re: #307 NJDhockeyfan
Why isn't New Orleans completely under water right now? I know the levys were breached during a cat 5 hurricane but they were fixed. If the seas were rising wouldn't they levys be under water?
There is a series of underground canals built in the early 1800's to drain NOLA:
In the 1830s state engineer George T. Dunbar proposed an ambitious system of underground drainage canals beneath the streets. The goal was to drain water by gravity into the low lying swamps, supplementing this with canals and mechanical pumps. The first of the city's steam engine powered drainage pumps, adapted from a ship's paddle wheel and used to push water along the Orleans Canal out to Bayou St. John, was constructed in this decade. However, only a few of Dunbar's plans were actually implemented as the panic of 1837 largely ended major systematic improvements for a generation.
| 316 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:12:54pm |
re: #284 HoosierHoops
Well ok..Eat lunch here my friend...
[Link: indianapolis.diningguide.com...]
No, no, you HAVE to stop in the Mcdonald's Diner.
Steak for under $10. At McDonald's.
| 317 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:13:06pm |
re: #306 brookly red
I have a shoebox of multiple issues of Argentine pesos and Australes from the 70s, 80s and 90s...all of them were pretty much worthless when I was down there. I brought back with me about $12 worth of the current pesos- right now they're barely worth $4.
I didn't give the worthless pesos alot of thought until sometime around Jan 20th this year...go figure.
| 318 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:13:58pm |
Well this is interesting.
Who leaked the Hadley CRU files and why
The anonymous tipster, whom many people initially assumed had "hacked" into the computers at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia (repeatedly called the "Hadley CRU," by mistake), might in fact be a CRU insider who released the files for his own reasons.
The user, known only as "FOIA" (which now appears to be a reference to the British equivalent of the US Freedom of Information Act), left only one comment on The Air Vent to announce his release of his 61-MB ZIP archive. He has never been heard from since, nor has anyone stepped forward claiming to be that person since the story became widely known.
Persons knowledgeable in information security hold that this is not the behavior of a hacker. A hacker normally boasts of his act, even if he were hired or otherwise suborned to commit his act by someone else.
| 319 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:14:28pm |
re: #315 reine.de.tout
Underground? I thought beneath the ground in NOLA was...well...more water.
| 320 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:14:34pm |
re: #296 NJDhockeyfan
Hey, I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains. When will I have beach front property?
Just after the front eighth of California sends a tidal wave around the world.
| 321 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:15:08pm |
re: #309 Decatur Deb
Venice has been building "Operation Moses" for 25 years or so, giant pneumatically-raised barriers from the acqua alta. The Nederlands has surrendered farmland back to the North Sea, but mostly for other eco reasons.
The aqua alta has been happening for centuries, and I don't think it's recently gotten much worse. And as you say, the Netherlands chooses to do that. Where are the rich Venetians and Dutch buying insurance properties in the Erzgebirge? Maybe I just haven't heard about it yet...
| 322 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:15:10pm |
re: #317 Fenway_Nation
I have a shoebox of multiple issues of Argentine pesos and Australes from the 70s, 80s and 90s...all of them were pretty much worthless when I was down there. I brought back with me about $12 worth of the current pesos- right now they're barely worth $4.
I didn't give the worthless pesos alot of thought until sometime around Jan 20th this year...go figure.
well lets say you had bought yen in say 1946...
| 323 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:15:26pm |
re: #316 Racer X
No, no, you HAVE to stop in the Mcdonald's Diner.
Steak for under $10. At McDonald's.
I think you mean "steak"...
| 324 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:15:44pm |
re: #306 brookly red
yup... before the war they were worth about 4.23 dollars each... now toliet paper.
ahhh..clear throat...
A couple of years ago you could buy 20 million dollars in Dinars for a thousand dollars...It's a long shot..But guess what..They have a shit load of oil...
Call me crazy...But I may end up a millionaire
Love oil bro...
| 325 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:16:20pm |
re: #299 Cato the Elder
What I want to know is, if the seas are already rising, why aren't people leaving the Netherlands and Venice in droves by now?
Because basically, they don't believe in it either:
[Link: www.stormchaser.ca...]
[Link: www.hollandtrade.com...]
/
| 326 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:16:57pm |
re: #310 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I checked the levees but the levees were dry.
"Them good old boys were drinking whiskey and rye,
Singing, 'This'll be the day that I die. This'll be the day that I die.'"
-Don McLean
| 327 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:17:10pm |
re: #319 Fenway_Nation
Underground? I thought beneath the ground in NOLA was...well...more water.
Much of NOLA is below sea level - but there's ground there. It's not a thin slice of land floating on water.
| 328 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:17:21pm |
re: #322 brookly red
well lets say you had bought yen in say 1946...
How about pound-sterling from an equally strife-torn island kingdom that same year?
| 329 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:17:46pm |
re: #314 Mich-again
I doubt that Bozo was ever hopped up on drugs like Tiny Time seemed to be. Of course, its even scarier to think that was Tiny Tim wasn't on something when he sang that song.
You didn't see what Bozo was like backstage. Krusty is his nicer younger brother.
| 330 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:17:57pm |
re: #304 Cato the Elder
Well, I lived through being exposed to Bozo the Clown on a live teevee stage, so maybe.
Is THAT what it was?
///
| 331 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:18:44pm |
re: #327 reine.de.tout
Much of NOLA is below sea level - but there's ground there. It's not a thin slice of land floating on water.
By the 1980s, the city boasted a system of 20 pumping stations with 89 pumps, with a combined capacity of 15,642,000 gallons per minute, 22.5 billion gallons per day, equal to the flow of the Ohio River.
| 332 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:19:51pm |
re: #289 reine.de.tout
eh -
who stayed to loot? Those left in NO?
Or those who stayed in Houston?
Both.
| 333 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:20:19pm |
The aqua alta has been happening for centuries, and I don't think it's recently gotten much worse. And as you say, the Netherlands chooses to do that. Where are the rich Venetians and Dutch buying insurance properties in the Erzgebirge? Maybe I just haven't heard about it yet...
It's getting worse. Per Sci American:
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 334 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:20:32pm |
re: #297 Killgore Trout
He is even crazier than I thought! And that's saying something!
| 335 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:20:33pm |
Talk about New Orleans and the Netherlands makes me think of this:
Randy Newman and the Rotterdam Philharmonic
| 336 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:20:35pm |
Thanksgiving Recipes: The Perfect Roast VegetablesRoast vegetables are tasty in their own right, but when they're roasted in the juices of a Thanksgiving turkey, they're downright splendid.
Sounds tasty. Must be bad for you.
| 337 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:20:57pm |
re: #324 HoosierHoops
ahhh..clear throat...
A couple of years ago you could buy 20 million dollars in Dinars for a thousand dollars...It's a long shot..But guess what..They have a shit load of oil...
Call me crazy...But I may end up a millionaire
Love oil bro...
kinda like i think...
| 338 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:21:51pm |
re: #328 Fenway_Nation
How about pound-sterling from an equally strife-torn island kingdom that same year?
you get the picture.
| 339 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:21:52pm |
I have to say, alot of the Latin American countries have come up with the perfect anti-counterfitting measures.
Circulate a currency so worthless and vulnerable to hyperinflation that nobody in their right mind would want to counterfit it.
/I hear we're considering doing the same for the dollar.
| 340 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:22:42pm |
re: #329 Cato the Elder
You didn't see what Bozo was like backstage. Krusty is his nicer younger brother.
Thats pretty funny. I used to watch Bozo every morning before going to school. Too bad there isn't a "Behind the Scenes" video from back then. I could just see Bozo having a smoke during a commercial break barking out commands to the crew and yelling at the kids in the crowd. Ha.
| 341 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:22:45pm |
re: #297 Killgore Trout
oops,
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty[Video]
He is a good speaker tho - and not using a teleprompter. He may be wacky but so was Oral Roberts.
| 342 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:22:50pm |
re: #277 Decatur Deb
For a guess, at any given moment 50,000 people are making wild statements. The 2 that turn out right are prophets. The rest were nuts.
Peter Schiff was right.
| 343 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:22:58pm |
re: #339 Fenway_Nation
I have to say, alot of the Latin American countries have come up with the perfect anti-counterfitting measures.
Circulate a currency so worthless and vulnerable to hyperinflation that nobody in their right mind would want to counterfit it.
/I hear we're considering doing the same for the dollar.
I'd say the plan's well underway.
| 344 |
freetoken Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:22:58pm |
re: #295 Killgore Trout
Crazy Glenn Beck claims the Statue of Liberty is holding the 10 Commandments...
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
Last week I linked to a Bloggingheads interview with Bruce Feiler, who points out that there is a Mosaic quality to the Statue of Liberty.
It is just like Beck to misunderstand the symbolism and demand the literal. This is a very common thought-pattern among that crowd.
| 345 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:23:12pm |
re: #318 NJDhockeyfan
Well this is interesting.
The user's choice of words indicate someone having a motive to disclose to the world certain activities and mindsets that the user found distasteful, at least.
SNIP
We feel that climate science is, in the current situation, too important to be kept under wraps.
We hereby release a random selection of correspondence, code, and documents. Hopefully it will give some insight into the science and the people behind it.
Hmmm...
| 346 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:23:53pm |
re: #295 Killgore Trout
Crazy Glenn Beck claims the Statue of Liberty is holding the 10 Commandments...
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty
[Link: www.youtube.com...]More snippets from today's speech on the right sidebar.
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
| 347 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:24:04pm |
re: #324 HoosierHoops
ahhh..clear throat...
A couple of years ago you could buy 20 million dollars in Dinars for a thousand dollars...It's a long shot..But guess what..They have a shit load of oil...
Call me crazy...But I may end up a millionaire
Love oil bro...
Then you should invest in oil, not paper currency. Oil as a finite commodity will continue to appreciate in value, even if it's not as finite as some people think. And we're not going to stop burning oil anytime soon...no matter how many resolutions are passed.
| 348 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:25:40pm |
re: #295 Killgore Trout
Crazy Glenn Beck claims the Statue of Liberty is holding the 10 Commandments...
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty
[Link: www.youtube.com...]More snippets from today's speech on the right sidebar.
Wha...?
Dumber than a bag of hammers.
| 350 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:25:54pm |
re: #257 Bobibutu
Haven't seen much in MSM onit - but then ...
Of course not, doesn't fit their agenda.
| 351 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:26:33pm |
re: #332 Bagua
Both.
Ah.
I don't know.
I do know that many of the looters were found to be from out of town. Heard the city was deserted, and moved on in.
As for those who ended up in Houston (and other areas of the country) -
they just kept living the way they always had, I think. Those who were law-abiding citizens continued to be so - and those who weren't, continued to be the way they were.
| 352 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:28:17pm |
| 353 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:28:36pm |
re: #295 Killgore Trout
I'm surprised Beck hasn't figured out that Lady Liberty is actually Moses and Mt. Sinai is in France.
| 354 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:29:36pm |
re: #347 Cato the Elder
Then you should invest in oil, not paper currency. Oil as a finite commodity will continue to appreciate in value, even if it's not as finite as some people think. And we're not going to stop burning oil anytime soon...no matter how many resolutions are passed.
I should not say anything...But the Iraq dinar is under valued...They have a shit load of oil..Some day those dollars will be worth a lot of money...
| 355 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:30:33pm |
re: #308 Cato the Elder
Umm, c'mon, are you telling me that a six-year-old wouldn't be creeped out by that song? "To wash away the sin"?
Not at all. I'll bet that they all went on to become perfectly well-adjusted young adults and ardent Marilyn Manson fans.
| 356 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:30:34pm |
re: #353 bosforus
I'm surprised Beck hasn't figured out that Lady Liberty is actually Moses and Mt. Sinai is in France.
Don't give him any ideas! He might actually start saying that, since he's crazier than Ann Coulter on meth.
| 357 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:30:54pm |
Here are some fascinating clues(maybe only to me)...
Glenn Beck Announces He's Formed a Shadow Cabinet
I've been pondering who's really behind what's going on with the right. There are a few right wing George Soros types out there. In discussing his advisers he mentions dining with Steve Forbes. That's something to keep an eye one. Also I think it's a pretty safe bet that the Jeffersonian "radicals" are probably Paulians.
| 358 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:30:56pm |
| 359 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:31:18pm |
re: #344 freetoken
Good point. The fundamentalist mindset is incredibly concrete in its thinking. Nuance is a four letter word to them. Everything is us/them, black/white, all or nothing. Anything in between is either ignored or attacked as being in league with the enemy, whatever or whoever it might be that day.
| 360 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:31:31pm |
re: #291 Fenway_Nation
Joke's on you- all of us will be in bone-dry North Korea by then!
//
Well like I said, not wanting to give people fair speedy and open hearings is very much the way they think. You'd fit right in :)
| 361 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:32:01pm |
re: #295 Killgore Trout
Crazy Glenn Beck claims the Statue of Liberty is holding the 10 Commandments...
Glenn Beck's Alternate History of the Statue of Liberty
[Link: www.youtube.com...]More snippets from today's speech on the right sidebar.
"Looks a little like"
| 362 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:32:29pm |
re: #353 bosforus
I'm surprised Beck hasn't figured out that Lady Liberty is actually Moses and Mt. Sinai is in France.
I'm betting he got that interpretation from somewhere. A lot of far right groups have been trying to rewrite us history schoolbooks for a while now.
| 363 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:32:37pm |
re: #351 reine.de.tout
Ah.
I don't know.
I do know that many of the looters were found to be from out of town. Heard the city was deserted, and moved on in.As for those who ended up in Houston (and other areas of the country) -
they just kept living the way they always had, I think. Those who were law-abiding citizens continued to be so - and those who weren't, continued to be the way they were.
Correct, and there was a large percentage who weren't. Rats tend to flee a sinking ship.
I think the high crime rate in that lovely city is pretty well documented.
| 364 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:32:43pm |
re: #356 Dark_Falcon
Don't give him any ideas! He might actually start saying that, since he's crazier than Ann Coulter on meth.
Oh dear L0rd, on that you may right. He really is that crazy.
| 365 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:33:16pm |
re: #354 HoosierHoops
I should not say anything...But the Iraq dinar is under valued...They have a shit load of oil..Some day those dollars will be worth a lot of money...
in 2008 the dinar went up 18%... the dollar, not so much.
| 366 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:33:36pm |
re: #356 Dark_Falcon
Don't give him any ideas! He might actually start saying that, since he's crazier than Ann Coulter on meth.
Meth, huh? That would explain a lot.
| 367 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:34:56pm |
| 368 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:35:14pm |
re: #365 brookly red
in 2008 the dinar went up 18%... the dollar, not so much.
Both just paper money. You want to own something, own the commodity.
| 369 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:35:15pm |
re: #344 freetoken
Last week I linked to a Bloggingheads interview with Bruce Feiler, who points out that there is a Mosaic quality to the Statue of Liberty.
It is just like Beck to misunderstand the symbolism and demand the literal. This is a very common thought-pattern among that crowd.
Good post. Literalistic thinking is rarely a good thing outside of pure mathematics.
| 370 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:35:51pm |
re: #357 Killgore Trout
Glenn Beck has formed a shadow cabinet? Do they all wear clown noses or just the leader?
| 371 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:35:56pm |
re: #360 LudwigVanQuixote
Well like I said, not wanting to give people fair speedy and open hearings is very much the way they think. You'd fit right in :)
Well, like I said, if the universal code of military justice is sufficient to govern the rules and conduct of the troops responsible for fighting enemy combatants in places like Afghanistan, then why should the people they (or other nation's intelligence or security agencies) capture in foreign countries be awarded the same set of rights as a motorist running a red light in Mt. Airy, NC?
| 372 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:36:12pm |
re: #356 Dark_Falcon
Don't give him any ideas! He might actually start saying that, since he's crazier than Ann Coulter on meth.
May I steal your Ann Coulter on meth line?
| 373 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:36:14pm |
re: #361 Racer X
It could also look a little like a hardcore gay porn magazine. Why bring it up?
| 374 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:36:43pm |
re: #354 HoosierHoops
I should not say anything...But the Iraq dinar is under valued...They have a shit load of oil..Some day those dollars will be worth a lot of money...
I know a Nigerian Banker, with access to the estate of an American Family, killed in a car crash.
For $200,0000 we can split MILLIONS!
LOL!
| 375 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:37:33pm |
re: #350 Bagua
Of course not, doesn't fit their agenda.
"fearful locals take their defence into their own hands and buy concealed weapons licences that allow them to travel armed.
Although 9mm semi-automatic pistols are the easiest gun to carry, Jim Pruett, an arms salesman, says that his "looter shooter" - a pistol-grip, pump shotgun retailing at $370 (£200) - is also a big seller"
Got the ol' Rem 870 folding stock pump - God I love this weapon.
| 376 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:37:53pm |
re: #357 Killgore Trout
Here are some fascinating clues(maybe only to me)...
Glenn Beck Announces He's Formed a Shadow Cabinet
Now he just needs to step into it and we can lock it.
| 377 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:38:07pm |
re: #371 Fenway_Nation
Well, like I said, if the universal code of military justice is sufficient to govern the rules and conduct of the troops responsible for fighting enemy combatants in places like Afghanistan, then why should the people they (or other nation's intelligence or security agencies) capture in foreign countries be awarded the same set of rights as a motorist running a red light in Mt. Airy, NC?
Well, if they were treated up to the standards of the UCMJ, which prohibits torture and does not hold people indefinitely and provides them with counsel, there would not have been a problem.
But we didn't do that. We didn't follow UCMJ at all.
| 378 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:38:34pm |
re: #354 HoosierHoops
I dunno, HH...I think some of the more industrially developed countries over in the Persian Gulf actually peg their currencies to the greenback.
| 379 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:38:44pm |
re: #368 Cato the Elder
Both just paper money. You want to own something, own the commodity.
true that, I did ok w/gold & sliver but this is like lotto tickets it only costs a few bucks, but if you dio win...
| 380 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:38:47pm |
re: #370 Bagua
I think this might be where Beck gets too crazy. His hardcore fans might buy into this but his ego has gone completely over the edge. I think he's going to end up looking pretty stupid here very soon.
| 381 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:11pm |
re: #357 Killgore Trout
Here are some fascinating clues(maybe only to me)...
Glenn Beck Announces He's Formed a Shadow Cabinet[Video]I've been pondering who's really behind what's going on with the right. There are a few right wing George Soros types out there. In discussing his advisers he mentions dining with Steve Forbes. That's something to keep an eye one. Also I think it's a pretty safe bet that the Jeffersonian "radicals" are probably Paulians.
Personally, I think it's just a power vacuum - no real visionary leader capable of pulling everyone together yet - and a few subgroups vying for control.
If there's any one person, right now it seems to be the decision-makers at Foxnews.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but it's what I'm seeing right now.
| 382 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:38pm |
re: #365 brookly red
in 2008 the dinar went up 18%... the dollar, not so much.
20 million dollars...It may not work out...I bought in 2003.. Who cares...I spent a 1000 dollars...As soon as Iraq stabilizes I'm in the money
I'm in the money! OK i may lose a 1000 dollars..or not
| 383 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:44pm |
Well, good night. I just downloaded the Kindle edition of Richard Burton's Pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah, and I'm under a spell.
| 384 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:46pm |
re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote
I see...so this isn't KSM you want to see on trial then.
It's Bush and Cheney.
| 385 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:49pm |
re: #381 Gearhead
Personally, I think it's just a power vacuum - no real visionary leader capable of pulling everyone together yet - and a few subgroups vying for control.
If there's any one person, right now it seems to be the decision-makers at Foxnews.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but it's what I'm seeing right now.
Roger Ailes
| 386 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:39:53pm |
re: #347 Cato the Elder
Then you should invest in oil, not paper currency. Oil as a finite commodity will continue to appreciate in value, even if it's not as finite as some people think. And we're not going to stop burning oil anytime soon...no matter how many resolutions are passed.
Oil will go the way of the buggy whip sooner or later either way. Either we shift off of it, and demand goes way down, or the effects of climate change collapse the economy and there is no market for it.
| 387 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:40:29pm |
Beck saying the things he does about the Statue of Liberty isn't all that surprising, even if it is outlandishly wrong. His particular brand of Mormonism (it may be common to all Mormons. I'm not sure) sees the American documents and symbols as divinely inspired. So for him all of these might as well be the ten commandments. It's a deeply mythological reading of American history, and it's one that resonates with many evangelicals. That's part of what makes his spiel so effective. He's telling the crowds what they want to believe about themselves and the country's founding. I happen to thank God for our founders and what they did. It's amazing that they created the documents and the system they did. But I don't suffuse it with the mythos that is so popular, especially on the right.
| 388 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:40:29pm |
re: #372 LudwigVanQuixote
May I steal your Ann Coulter on meth line?
Feel free. You've given me some good lines in the past, so I owe you one.
| 389 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:40:45pm |
| 390 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:40:56pm |
re: #373 Killgore Trout
It could also look a little like a hardcore gay porn magazine. Why bring it up?
Hardcore gay porn? OK, then. Whatever gets your motor going.
I'm not defending Bleck, but his comment was something about lady liberty holding the law, 'which looks a little like the ten commandments'. Back in the 'olden days' the ten commandments were like the law. I guess. I dunno what he meant.
Gay porn?
LOL!
| 391 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:41:05pm |
re: #383 Cato the Elder
Enjoy! Sleep tight.
| 392 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:41:51pm |
re: #384 Fenway_Nation
I see...so this isn't KSM you want to see on trial then.
It's Bush and Cheney.
NO I absolutely want KSM on trial, and believe it or not, even though he is utter and clearly proven to be scum, I want a real hearing for those who we may not have all the dirt on.
As to Bush and Cheney the violated very important laws with this fiasco. They should, in a perfect world have to face some consequences for that. But they will not, and we both know it is a moot point.
| 393 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:41:51pm |
re: #382 HoosierHoops
20 million dollars...It may not work out...I bought in 2003.. Who cares...I spent a 1000 dollars...As soon as Iraq stabilizes I'm in the money
I'm in the money! OK i may lose a 1000 dollars..or not
lots can go wrong for sure, but nothing is safe...
| 396 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:43:07pm |
re: #377 LudwigVanQuixote
Once again you libel our military.
| 397 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:43:29pm |
re: #380 Killgore Trout
I think this might be where Beck gets too crazy. His hardcore fans might buy into this but his ego has gone completely over the edge. I think he's going to end up looking pretty stupid here very soon.
Soon?
| 398 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:43:47pm |
re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote
Oil will go the way of the buggy whip sooner or later either way. Either we shift off of it, and demand goes way down, or the effects of climate change collapse the economy and there is no market for it.
I agree. All it will take to collapse the price of oil is a glut from a slight decrease in demand.
| 399 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:43:58pm |
| 400 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:44:19pm |
re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote
Oil will go the way of the buggy whip sooner or later either way. Either we shift off of it, and demand goes way down, or the effects of climate change collapse the economy and there is no market for it.
I'm for using it up fast so we'll have to find alternatives. We (the herd, the aggregate, the many-headed beast) will never wean itself from the easy way of doing things, and no "world community" exists to force it to do so. I do my ecological bit by driving as much as I can in my gas-guzzler.
And the effects of climate change might just as easily spur the economy - you can't predict that at all.
| 402 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:45:53pm |
re: #396 MandyManners
Once again you libel our military.
No actually, I do not in the least. Liable and slander are only liable and slander if they are false.
We did not give these people fair, speedy or open hearings with adequate counsel. That is required by UCMJ. So is not torturing prisoners or degrading them.
I am actually trying to protect the honor of our military and this nation, rather than permit crimes to be committed and our values trampled while pissily sweeping it under the rug. That would be what you are doing. And it is worse for America in the long run.
| 403 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:46:03pm |
| 405 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:46:37pm |
re: #380 Killgore Trout
I think this might be where Beck gets too crazy. His hardcore fans might buy into this but his ego has gone completely over the edge. I think he's going to end up looking pretty stupid here very soon.
One certainly hopes that Simpering Idiot Glenn Beck&trade does enough to burst his undeserved popularity soon. But as far as "end up looking pretty stupid", I reckon he is well beyond that already.
| 406 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:46:41pm |
re: #400 Cato the Elder
I'm for using it up fast so we'll have to find alternatives. We (the herd, the aggregate, the many-headed beast) will never wean itself from the easy way of doing things, and no "world community" exists to force it to do so. I do my ecological bit by driving as much as I can in my gas-guzzler.
And the effects of climate change might just as easily spur the economy - you can't predict that at all.
At which point we guarantee crossing a tipping point. Very bad call.
| 407 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:47:01pm |
re: #374 Floral Giraffe
Speaking of Nigerian bankers, here's a hysterical post from a blogger I like about scamming a scammer.
| 408 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:47:23pm |
re: #401 Racer X
So, what about that health care bill eh?
You mean the thing that scares the shit out of me more than Tiny Tim in close proximity to children?
| 409 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:47:38pm |
America needs Obamacare like Nancy Pelosi needs a Halloween mask.
| 410 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:47:40pm |
re: #381 Gearhead
That's what I'm thinking too. Forbes has been on my suspect list for a while now. Possibly cooperating with Rupert Murdoch.
| 411 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:47:44pm |
re: #392 LudwigVanQuixote
So for every Al-Q operative that is captured in Iraq, Afghanistan or the horn of Africa, they should be mirandized, free legal representation and no attempts to glean any actionable intel from them should be made because it might infringe on their rights.
0bama's actions this past week give me every indication that he almost wants to see KSM's civilian trial tank. How this benefits 0bama and Holder, I don't know...but holy fucking shit- announcing a guilty verdict and death sentence before KSM is even brought to Manhattan? If that happened in any other case, that would be ground for a mistrial.
But hey! Since this was 0bama and Holder's doing, I'm sure it's all fair and good...
| 412 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:48:10pm |
re: #374 Floral Giraffe
I know a Nigerian Banker, with access to the estate of an American Family, killed in a car crash.
For $200,0000 we can split MILLIONS!
LOL!
Oh, hell!
That's you who's been sending me all those emails?
| 413 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:49:17pm |
re: #411 Fenway_Nation
So for every Al-Q operative that is captured in Iraq, Afghanistan or the horn of Africa, they should be mirandized, free legal representation and no attempts to glean any actionable intel from them should be made because it might infringe on their rights.
0bama's actions this past week give me every indication that he almost wants to see KSM's civilian trial tank. How this benefits 0bama and Holder, I don't know...but holy fucking shit- announcing a guilty verdict and death sentence before KSM is even brought to Manhattan? If that happened in any other case, that would be ground for a mistrial.
But hey! Since this was 0bama and Holder's doing, I'm sure it's all fair and good...
NO, they should be given fair hearings with adequate representation in as speedy a way as possible and not tortured, because for every bad guy we pick up, we also pick up a bunch of illiterate farmers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
| 414 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:49:21pm |
re: #402 LudwigVanQuixote
No actually, I do not in the least. Liable and slander are only liable and slander if they are false.
We did not give these people fair, speedy or open hearings with adequate counsel. That is required by UCMJ. So is not torturing prisoners or degrading them.
I am actually trying to protect the honor of our military and this nation, rather than permit crimes to be committed and our values trampled while pissily sweeping it under the rug. That would be what you are doing. And it is worse for America in the long run.
No your not. You are trying to find fault with the way the military is protecting us. I will give the military the benefit of the doubt with the way they have kept these terrorists in captivity and pumping them for information. The intelligence we got from them has resulted in thwarting other terror attacks.
| 415 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:49:42pm |
re: #411 Fenway_Nation
Why not actually read what I wrote rather than make up stuff and put words in my mouth.
| 416 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:50:20pm |
re: #382 HoosierHoops
20 million dollars...It may not work out...I bought in 2003.. Who cares...I spent a 1000 dollars...As soon as Iraq stabilizes I'm in the money
I'm in the money! OK i may lose a 1000 dollars..or not
I trust you are a young man - IMNSHO you made a great bet and will profit handsomely by it.
When the first Gulf War was about to break out I bought all the oil futures I could. Nuff said.
| 417 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:51:05pm |
re: #387 Irenicum
His particular brand of Mormonism (it may be common to all Mormons. I'm not sure)
As a Mormon allow me to address that point and preface it with the obligatory disclaimer of 'from my experience...'
The most we believe is that the religious freedoms allowed in the US were divine in nature to allow our religion to get its start. I imagine that if one were to search through talks given by church leaders, printed articles, things like that, you'd probably find instances where they talk more specifically about the divine nature of our country's documents but nothing comes to my mind at the moment and pushing the idea that said documents are the literal word for word will of God is something I've never heard in all my 29 years as a practicing Mormon.
| 418 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:51:36pm |
re: #407 Irenicum
Speaking of Nigerian bankers, here's a hysterical post from a blogger I like about scamming a scammer.
You wanna laugh your ass off? Read some of these.
| 419 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:51:49pm |
re: #411 Fenway_Nation
So for every Al-Q operative that is captured in Iraq, Afghanistan or the horn of Africa, they should be mirandized, free legal representation and no attempts to glean any actionable intel from them should be made because it might infringe on their rights.
0bama's actions this past week give me every indication that he almost wants to see KSM's civilian trial tank. How this benefits 0bama and Holder, I don't know...but holy fucking shit- announcing a guilty verdict and death sentence before KSM is even brought to Manhattan? If that happened in any other case, that would be ground for a mistrial.
But hey! Since this was 0bama and Holder's doing, I'm sure it's all fair and good...
That's not what Ludwig said, Fenway. He has said that he would be alright with commissions, but that he feels any current commissions would be tainted. I don't agree with the assessment, but it's still some distance from the position you described.
| 420 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:52:04pm |
Ima go get some popcorn. Anyone want anything?
| 421 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:52:37pm |
re: #393 brookly red
lots can go wrong for sure, but nothing is safe...
I'm a money guy...I gave our dear friend Walter some crazy bills from the Caribbean for a trade of a meteorite.. I have a safe full of money...
I've been doing this for 20 years...It's how I roll..someday I hope to be rich
*wink*
| 422 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:52:51pm |
re: #414 NJDhockeyfan
No, I am not trying to find fault. There is clearly established and well known fault in the way this was handled. Which part of not everyone we picked up was guilty did you miss? Which part of those people should have at least a fair hearing (like our principles say they should) did you miss? Which part of we should treat prisoners well (like our principles say they should) did you miss? Which part of not torturing them (WHICH IS THE LAW _CERTAINLY UCMJ) did you miss?
Or do you consider things like Abu Graib to be success stories?
| 423 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:53:02pm |
re: #415 LudwigVanQuixote
Spare me the thin-skinned indignation, bright boy. You're the one who's been shaking your pom-poms for a civilian trial for foreign born Al Qaeda suspects caught overseas by our military. Miranda rights and the like for the detained would be the logical conclusion of treating this exclusively as a law-enforcement matter.
| 425 |
brookly red Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:53:40pm |
good night good people... I feel it's time to call it a day.
| 426 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:53:42pm |
| 427 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:53:54pm |
re: #405 Bagua
I checked in with the Hot Airheads (Becks target demographic) and way too many on them see this as a way for Beck to market his books, plug his show and feed his ego. I don't think this is going to go over well with his fans, it's just too transparent.
| 428 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:54:00pm |
re: #413 LudwigVanQuixote
NO, they should be given fair hearings with adequate representation in as speedy a way as possible and not tortured, because for every bad guy we pick up, we also pick up a bunch of illiterate farmers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And Kabul jaywalkers, I'm sure!
//
| 429 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:54:11pm |
Q: Have you heard about McDonalds new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
| 430 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:04pm |
re: #400 Cato the Elder
And the effects of climate change might just as easily spur the economy - you can't predict that at all.
I'm still trying to figure out our orbit stats around the sun and it's effect on our weather - something seems to be missing for my Opus Max on the market. Any insights?
/
| 431 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:21pm |
| 432 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:48pm |
re: #423 Fenway_Nation
Spare me the thin-skinned indignation, bright boy. You're the one who's been shaking your pom-poms for a civilian trial for foreign born Al Qaeda suspects caught overseas by our military. Miranda rights and the like for the detained would be the logical conclusion of treating this exclusively as a law-enforcement matter.
I am neither thin skinned or indignant. If you could read, because it's been written here at least a dozen times. The argument is give them a fair open hearing with adequate counsel. If that can be done by the military so be it.
What matters is that it is done in a fair adequate and open way. Since these men were tortured by the military, they do not belong in a military court. The trial would be instantly tarnished. For those whom we did not violate everyone of our legal principles in teh course of holding them, use the tribunal if it is the better venue. That's fine.
As to you, learn to read.
| 433 |
Cato the Elder Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:54pm |
I am not an AGW skeptic, by the way. I am a policy pessimist and a student of human history, and I rate our chances of pulling ourselves out of the fire by an act or acts of political will at near zero.
We may well adapt, and we may well mitigate, and we may even avert the worst (assuming - a big assumption - that the worst is as bad as the apocolyptogasmic doom fetishists delight in predicting), but it will not be accomplished by legislation from above.
And now good night, for real.
| 434 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:55pm |
re: #429 Racer X
Q: Have you heard about McDonalds new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
GOD that's old.
| 435 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:55:56pm |
Q: What's the difference between Obama's cabinet and a penitentiary?
A: One is filled with tax evaders, blackmailers and threats to society.
The other is for housing prisoners.
| 436 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:56:41pm |
re: #422 LudwigVanQuixote
Or do you consider things like Abu Graib to be success stories?
Only if I worked for the MSM.
| 437 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:56:57pm |
| 438 |
Digital Display Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:57:09pm |
| 439 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:57:12pm |
re: #422 LudwigVanQuixote
Or do you consider things like Abu Graib to be success stories?
Only for the NY Times.
| 440 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:57:39pm |
re: #427 Killgore Trout
I checked in with the Hot Airheads (Becks target demographic) and way too many on them see this as a way for Beck to market his books, plug his show and feed his ego. I don't think this is going to go over well with his fans, it's just too transparent.
Glad to hear that, I'd hate to think a large percentage of his viewers don't see through his act.
| 441 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:57:45pm |
re: #390 Racer X
I'm not defending Bleck, but his comment was something about lady liberty holding the law, 'which looks a little like the ten commandments'. Back in the 'olden days' the ten commandments were like the law. I guess. I dunno what he meant.
Gay porn?
LOL!
Does he understand that Lady Liberty was a gift from France, by a French artist, and no American had anything to do with designing her?
| 443 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:58:24pm |
| 444 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:58:25pm |
re: #435 Racer X
Q: What's the difference between 'Palestine' and Santa's Workshop?
A: One is a comletely made-up place that only gullible little children believe exists and the other makes toys at the North Pole.
| 445 |
bosforus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:58:56pm |
re: #441 sagehen
Does he understand that Lady Liberty was a gift from France, by a French artist, and no American had anything to do with designing her?
And hadn't France held a funeral for God by then?
| 446 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:59:10pm |
re: #441 sagehen
Does he understand that Lady Liberty was a gift from France, by a French artist, and no American had anything to do with designing her?
Hang on, let me ask him.
| 447 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:59:14pm |
re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote
I am neither thin skinned or indignant. If you could read, because it's been written here at least a dozen times. The argument is give them a fair open hearing with adequate counsel. If that can be done by the military so be it.
What matters is that it is done in a fair adequate and open way. Since these men were tortured by the military, they do not belong in a military court. The trial would be instantly tarnished. For those whom we did not violate everyone of our legal principles in teh course of holding them, use the tribunal if it is the better venue. That's fine.
As to you, learn to read.
Our military are now torturers? The terrorists aren't being fairly given legal council?
Do you work for the ACLU?
| 448 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:59:17pm |
re: #433 Cato the Elder
I am not an AGW skeptic, by the way. I am a policy pessimist and a student of human history, and I rate our chances of pulling ourselves out of the fire by an act or acts of political will at near zero.
We may well adapt, and we may well mitigate, and we may even avert the worst (assuming - a big assumption - that the worst is as bad as the apocolyptogasmic doom fetishists delight in predicting), but it will not be accomplished by legislation from above.
And now good night, for real.
Well said and well reasoned, good night.
| 449 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:59:17pm |
re: #431 Racer X
Really? Gotta be cold man.
Really.
If cold's what you've got, I'll take it. Beggars can't be choosers.
| 450 |
steve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 8:59:24pm |
Boy, does he have global warming theorists terrorists down pat.
| 452 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:00:40pm |
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
| 453 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:01:19pm |
re: #443 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly, and people with your views, who think this is all ok give those people and our enemies all the ammunition in the world. Why can't you see that?
What ammuntion did they have on September 10, 2001?
How about when they blew up the embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam?
That gaping hole in the side of the USS Cole?
Don't know how to break this to you, bright boy, but these are a group of people that don't exactly give too much thought for reasons why they should hate us.
| 454 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:01:32pm |
| 455 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:01:33pm |
re: #443 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly, and people with your views, who think this is all ok give those people and our enemies all the ammunition in the world. Why can't you see that?
Yes, because all the terrorists attacks we've absorbed are OUR fault, right?
| 457 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:02:20pm |
re: #447 NJDhockeyfan
Our military are now torturers? The terrorists aren't being fairly given legal council?
Do you work for the ACLU?
So ummm yeah, ummm, Since waterboarding is torture, and we did do that, then yeah the people who did it were torturers. If they were in military custody at the time, but the CIA did it, then the military is still complicit.
Sorry for using those facts and logic on you.
| 458 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:03:06pm |
re: #411 Fenway_Nation
How this benefits 0bama and Holder, I don't know
Oh come on ... It's the Bush fault. Republican double dealing and all the rest. Once they prove it by the Intel community refusing to speak (hopefully) ON TO the next election and more of The Chicago Way™
| 459 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:03:15pm |
re: #443 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly, and people with your views, who think this is all ok give those people and our enemies all the ammunition in the world. Why can't you see that?
Re; Abu Ghraib:
I didn't say the abuse carried out by a very very very very very tiny itzsy bitzy small group of soldiers was OK.
But it did make the front page for 7594984574 consecutive days.
| 460 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:03:34pm |
re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote
I am neither thin skinned or indignant. If you could read, because it's been written here at least a dozen times. The argument is give them a fair open hearing with adequate counsel. If that can be done by the military so be it.
What matters is that it is done in a fair adequate and open way. Since these men were tortured by the military, they do not belong in a military court. The trial would be instantly tarnished. For those whom we did not violate everyone of our legal principles in teh course of holding them, use the tribunal if it is the better venue. That's fine.
As to you, learn to read.
Wasn't it the CIA that waterboarded KSM and the others? As I understand it, they weren't handed over to the DoD until after their interrogation was complete.
| 461 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:04:32pm |
I had forgotten what an incredibly odd duck Herb Khaury was. His wedding on the Carson Show to Moss Vicky...&c and &c.
| 462 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:04:42pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
Add cliffster to the list. Just keeping things accurate.
| 463 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:04:48pm |
re: #413 LudwigVanQuixote
because for every bad guy we pick up, we also pick up a bunch of illiterate farmers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I seriously doubt that. Do you really think they fish for the bad guys with a net and if they happen to catch one its luck?
| 464 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:05:05pm |
re: #457 LudwigVanQuixote
So ummm yeah, ummm, Since waterboarding is torture, and we did do that, then yeah the people who did it were torturers. If they were in military custody at the time, but the CIA did it, then the military is still complicit.
Sorry for using those facts and logic on you.
"A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin.
| 465 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:05:47pm |
re: #455 NJDhockeyfan
Yes, because all the terrorists attacks we've absorbed are OUR fault, right?
NO not at all.
You know, saying that you want someone put on a capital trial for their life, is hardly cutting them slack.
In response to attacks, we act with honor, not jingoistic foolishness.
Saying that some might be innocent, NOT KSM, but some, and we don't have al teh facts and that America is about fair hearings is well, what we are about as a nation. And those of you who keep dinging that, I repeat. To not give fair hearings and just have the government do what it wants with people is what other nations like North Korea do. We should be better than that.
| 466 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:06:01pm |
re: #460 Dark_Falcon
Wasn't it the CIA that waterboarded KSM and the others? As I understand it, they weren't handed over to the DoD until after their interrogation was complete.
But, but, but...they were on a military base so the military are also TORTURERS!
/
| 468 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:06:27pm |
re: #462 cliffster
Add cliffster to the list. Just keeping things accurate.
Add Bagua to the list as well, in the interest of accuracy.
| 469 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:06:42pm |
re: #462 cliffster
Add cliffster to the list. Just keeping things accurate.
Then please answer the question.
| 472 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:07:03pm |
re: #459 solomonpanting
Re; Abu Ghraib:
I didn't say the abuse carried out by a very very very very very tiny itzsy bitzy small group of soldiers was OK.
But it did make the front page for 7594984574 consecutive days.
There's reasons for that, and they don't all have to do with the malfeasance of the New York Times. People were genuinely shocked. Including all the military persons I know.
| 473 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:07:21pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
I've got no trouble with the speedy and rule of law parts, but for security reasons I don't want an open trial. It gives the enemy a platform to attack us, and they will also use it to try to expose our intel secrets. To Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a trial is just another battlefield. He seeks to destroy us, and I do not favor actions which will let him further his monstrous plans.
| 474 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:07:24pm |
re: #464 Bagua
"A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin.
Well, given how little of what you say is true, you should know.
| 475 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:07:43pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
Thanks! I missed one...
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
Please explain to me why they're entitled to speedy and opening hearings in accordance with American law. I mean...without the 'we're so much better than they are, now get out of my country you dumb jingoist!' platitudes.
| 476 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:08:22pm |
re: #469 LudwigVanQuixote
Then please answer the question.
It's war, it's a battlefield. That's the answer, and I suspect you didn't need me to respond to know that.
| 477 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:08:30pm |
re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist
People were genuinely shocked. Including all the military persons I know.
So, then it wasn't SOP?
| 478 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:08:34pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
Although I didn't down ding, my answer is that they don't deserve the privilege of American civil rights when they only came here with the purpose of destroying the Nation and the institutions that watch over those civil rights.
| 479 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:08:49pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
Nothing. It's another nontroversy. Gives the gaspers a platform for claiming weakness by the Admin blah blah blah. Shows our weakness in giving them the same rights as US citizens blah blah blah.
Nothing to see here...
| 480 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:09:03pm |
re: #473 Dark_Falcon
I've got no trouble with the speedy and rule of law parts, but for security reasons I don't want an open trial. It gives the enemy a platform to attack us, and they will also use it to try to expose our intel secrets. To Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a trial is just another battlefield. He seeks to destroy us, and I do not favor actions which will let him further his monstrous plans.
Fair enough, but I don't see how it gives them a platform to attack us. What, he's going to make nasty speeches about America? People will be shocked that Jihadis hate us? What gives our enemies a real attack is calling us hypocrites on our own principles.
| 481 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:09:13pm |
re: #474 LudwigVanQuixote
Well, given how little of what you say is true, you should know.
LOL, charging the windmills in all direction again are we?
| 482 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:09:17pm |
re: #452 LudwigVanQuixote
So to everyone of you who down dinged number 432, that means YOU sharmuta, bloodnok and DF,
What is wrong with fair speedy and open hearings for accused prisoners as per the rule of American law?
I dinged you down for saying you're not thin-skinned. I didn't read anything after that, so please quit assuming what your downdings mean.
| 483 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:09:29pm |
re: #479 austin_blue
Not all the prisoners get the same hearings, though.
| 484 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:10:18pm |
re: #475 Fenway_Nation
Please explain to me why they're entitled to speedy and opening hearings in accordance with American law.
Ummm...because we are Americans, and we keep telling people that we fight for freedom liberty and all the things insured by being a nation of laws?
Why is that such a difficult concept?
| 485 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:10:52pm |
re: #465 LudwigVanQuixote
NO not at all.
You know, saying that you want someone put on a capital trial for their life, is hardly cutting them slack.
In response to attacks, we act with honor, not jingoistic foolishness.
Saying that some might be innocent, NOT KSM, but some, and we don't have al teh facts and that America is about fair hearings is well, what we are about as a nation. And those of you who keep dinging that, I repeat. To not give fair hearings and just have the government do what it wants with people is what other nations like North Korea do. We should be better than that.
Lud, why would you feel that a military hearing would be less to the advantage of an innocent man picked up on the battlefield than a civil trial? It seems to me that a military court might have a better understanding of the circumstances of his capture than an civilian one.
| 486 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:06pm |
"Well, let me just check in at LGF before I go to bed"re: #484 LudwigVanQuixote
Ummm...because we are Americans, and we keep telling people that we fight for freedom liberty and all the things insured by being a nation of laws?
Why is that such a difficult concept?
They aren't Americans. Why is that such a difficult concept?
| 487 |
steve Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:22pm |
If waterboarding is torture then what is this?
Daniel Pearl beheading video,
Won't link to it just because.
These guys need to have military tribunals. They are not criminals they are military personal attacking the US and its citizens.
| 488 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:30pm |
re: #473 Dark_Falcon
I've got no trouble with the speedy and rule of law parts, but for security reasons I don't want an open trial. It gives the enemy a platform to attack us, and they will also use it to try to expose our intel secrets. To Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a trial is just another battlefield. He seeks to destroy us, and I do not favor actions which will let him further his monstrous plans.
10,000 updings!
| 489 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:35pm |
re: #460 Dark_Falcon
Wasn't it the CIA that waterboarded KSM and the others? As I understand it, they weren't handed over to the DoD until after their interrogation was complete.
KSM has been giving seminars to the military on his actions. He loves the attention.
| 490 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:42pm |
re: #482 Sharmuta
I dinged you down for saying you're not thin-skinned. I didn't read anything after that, so please quit assuming what your downdings mean.
Ok I dinged you down for writing such an unprovoked response :)
Just wanted to be clear.
But I've been getting a lot of that from you.
| 491 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:56pm |
re: #474 LudwigVanQuixote
Well, given how little of what you say is true, you should know.
Here come the personal attacks folks.
| 492 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:11:57pm |
re: #482 Sharmuta
I dinged you down for saying you're not thin-skinned. I didn't read anything after that, so please quit assuming what your downdings mean.
Maybe you hit the wrong button.
| 493 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:12:24pm |
re: #480 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough, but I don't see how it gives them a platform to attack us. What, he's going to make nasty speeches about America? People will be shocked that Jihadis hate us? What gives our enemies a real attack is calling us hypocrites on our own principles.
No...what gives our enemies a real attack last I checked were some fully fuelled commercial airliners flown into the Twin Towers, Pentagon and another that crashed in a Pennsylvania field.
| 495 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:13:13pm |
re: #490 LudwigVanQuixote
"Unprovoked"? You asked for a response from me by name.
| 496 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:13:59pm |
re: #491 NJDhockeyfan
Here come the personal attacks folks.
I've seen the word "jingoist" more in the last week than I've seen my whole life.
| 497 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:14:16pm |
What if a political party came right out and promised in their platform that once elected and in power they would work to undermine the entire political system, rip up the Constitution and cease the practice of free elections leaving their party in power forever. Would that party still deserve public financing? I guess if you support Hamas, thats a reasonable approach to politics.
Thats the same kind of question as do terrorists deserve the full protection of American civil rights. If you think Hamas is a legitimate political party, you probably think KSM should get an OJ trial.
| 498 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:14:24pm |
re: #491 NJDhockeyfan
Here come the personal attacks folks.
Yep, please note my comment was clearly addresses to the "waterboarding is torture meme" but the reply insinuated falsely that the majority of what I post is a lie.
| 499 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:14:27pm |
re: #477 solomonpanting
So, then it wasn't SOP?
SOP throughout the U.S. military? No. Tolerated and allowed to take place to a horrifying extent at Abu Ghraib, yes.
| 500 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:14:46pm |
re: #485 SanFranciscoZionist
Lud, why would you feel that a military hearing would be less to the advantage of an innocent man picked up on the battlefield than a civil trial? It seems to me that a military court might have a better understanding of the circumstances of his capture than an civilian one.
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this,
Military tribunals would have been fine if they had been fair, speedy, open, with adequate counsel and up to the standards of American Law.
Since the circumstance of tribunals for these men are so very questionable - because of shall we say irregularities in their detention, the best venue for them is one that would be less tainted with questions. Why, because I want the guilty ones to actually face real justice and not have our foes call it a show trial.
| 501 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:14:46pm |
Despite Plan, Guantánamo Trials Still Problematic
One of the senior administration officials said that although federal courts bar many kinds of hearsay evidence, “the hearsay rule is not one of those things that is rooted in American values.”The official added that the new rule barring evidence obtained through cruel interrogations that was announced by the president was not necessarily the administration’s final reform on the issues relating to brutal treatment of detainees. Bush administration officials often defended the military commission system, saying that the Guantánamo prisoners had been detained in wartime conditions and that the cases against some of them might not meet the requirements American courts impose on prosecutors.
That theme has emerged again in the Obama administration.
One official spoke anonymously on the situation confronted by the administration because he was not authorized to discuss its thinking.
He noted that detainees were captured in settings that did not permit the careful procedures familiar to American law enforcement officers, like search warrants and warnings that any statements they made could be used against them.
The official asked, “How do you translate that into a case that is even possible in a U.S. federal court?” And then he answered his own question: “Very difficult.”
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 502 |
Irenicum Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:15:06pm |
G'nite all. I'm not into this scene. Play well. And if you have to fight, fight fair.
| 503 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:15:09pm |
re: #478 Mich-again
Although I didn't down ding, my answer is that they don't deserve the privilege of American civil rights when they only came here with the purpose of destroying the Nation and the institutions that watch over those civil rights.
Wait, who are we talking about here? KSM, or people picked up on US soil?
| 504 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:15:40pm |
re: #491 NJDhockeyfan
Here come the personal attacks folks.
What, you all jump on me, and he even started with one, and I am the one attacking, dear G-d, is this fantasy land?
| 505 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:15:49pm |
re: #495 Sharmuta
"Unprovoked"? You asked for a response from me by name.
Sharmuta, you know better than to talk back when being scolded by your betters.
| 506 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:16:17pm |
re: #490 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey...while you're waiting for your martyr cookies to bake, maybe you can answer some of these simple questions:
What 'ammuntion' did they have against us on September 10, 2001?
How about when they blew up the embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam?
That gaping hole in the side of the USS Cole?
Don't know how to break this to you, bright boy, but these are a group of people that don't exactly give too much thought for reasons why they should hate us.
| 507 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:16:24pm |
re: #498 Bagua
Yep, please note my comment was clearly addresses to the "waterboarding is torture meme" but the reply insinuated falsely that the majority of what I post is a lie.
If you are talking about this or AGW you are lying.
| 508 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:16:53pm |
re: #489 Bobibutu
KSM has been giving seminars to the military on his actions. He loves the attention.
That's not all of it. He wants to see if he can charm a "reversion" (in his mind those who become Wahabbis are simply reverting back to what they should have been all along) out of his guards. He also wants to project the image of unlimited defiance to make those who hear him think they face a war they cannot win. I hate the man, but KSM is a better than competent planner and he is cleaner acting according to a plan and his ultimate aim has always been our destruction.
| 509 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:17:46pm |
re: #500 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this
If you say something incorrect a million times, it's still wrong.
| 510 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:17:58pm |
In case anyone wants to discuss anything else, my boy now has the Gettysburg address memorized. 12 years old.
Question for discussion: Just how valuable, educationally, is memorizing speeches or poems.
Second question: My sister and I memorized a Shel Silverstein poem that we recite together. Is this a bad thing, or sisterly bonding?
| 511 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:12pm |
re: #506 Fenway_Nation
Those questions are too hard to answer. I don't think you'll get one.
| 512 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:15pm |
re: #504 LudwigVanQuixote
What, you all jump on me, and he even started with one, and I am the one attacking, dear G-d, is this fantasy land?
Sounds rough. I can only imagine how it would feel if you weren't thick skinned.
| 513 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:16pm |
re: #500 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this,
[...]
Here comes the bit where those on the same side are attacked as well.
| 514 |
Gearhead Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:16pm |
re: #480 LudwigVanQuixote
Fair enough, but I don't see how it gives them a platform to attack us. What, he's going to make nasty speeches about America? People will be shocked that Jihadis hate us? What gives our enemies a real attack is calling us hypocrites on our own principles.
I highly recommend watching the video from Ayman Al Zawahiri's rantings during his trial for the Sadat assassination.
And other than that, I'm staying out of this.
| 515 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:36pm |
re: #500 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this,
Military tribunals would have been fine if they had been fair, speedy, open, with adequate counsel and up to the standards of American Law.
Since the circumstance of tribunals for these men are so very questionable - because of shall we say irregularities in their detention, the best venue for them is one that would be less tainted with questions. Why, because I want the guilty ones to actually face real justice and not have our foes call it a show trial.
I think that those same irregularities ensure tainted proceedings under any circumstances.
| 516 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:18:40pm |
re: #500 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this,
Military tribunals would have been fine if they had been fair, speedy, open, with adequate counsel and up to the standards of American Law.
And the civil libertarians who maneuvered to block military tribunals from day one?
| 517 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:19:01pm |
re: #506 Fenway_Nation
Hey...while you're waiting for your martyr cookies to bake, maybe you can answer some of these simple questions:
What 'ammuntion' did they have against us on September 10, 2001?
How about when they blew up the embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam?
That gaping hole in the side of the USS Cole?
Don't know how to break this to you, bright boy, but these are a group of people that don't exactly give too much thought for reasons why they should hate us.
Hey, how many more recruits did they get because we did not act with honor?
How many Americans lost support for the war, because we did not act with honor?
How many of our allies lost support for us at hoe, because we did not act with honor?
How about you stop the jingoistic speechification and look at the facts that are being presented?
| 518 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:19:10pm |
re: #510 EmmmieG
In case anyone wants to discuss anything else, my boy now has the Gettysburg address memorized. 12 years old.
Question for discussion: Just how valuable, educationally, is memorizing speeches or poems.
Second question: My sister and I memorized a Shel Silverstein poem that we recite together. Is this a bad thing, or sisterly bonding?
Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout
would not take the garbage out
| 519 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:19:40pm |
re: #509 cliffster
If you say something incorrect a million times, it's still wrong.
That fair speedy open trials with adequate counsel is an American value?
What is incorrect about that?
| 520 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:20:08pm |
re: #504 LudwigVanQuixote
What, you all jump on me, and he even started with one, and I am the one attacking, dear G-d, is this fantasy land?
It's called debating. Nobody called you any names or accused you of lying. Quit crying.
| 521 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:20:46pm |
re: #515 SanFranciscoZionist
I think that those same irregularities ensure tainted proceedings under any circumstances.
That is a very point and you may be correct. But we have to do something with them. We can't keep them in legal limbo forever.
| 522 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:20:47pm |
re: #497 Mich-again
Thats the same kind of question as do terrorists deserve the full protection of American civil rights. If you think Hamas is a legitimate political party, you probably think KSM should get an OJ trial.
The whole point of civil rights is you don't have to deserve them to be entitled to them.
To quote John McCain, "It's not about who they are, it's about who we are."
| 523 |
Ben G. Hazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:04pm |
| 524 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:15pm |
re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist
Wait, who are we talking about here? KSM, or people picked up on US soil?
If they were foreigners captured outside the USA for crimes committed outside the USA or planned against the USA, I don't see why they deserve any American civil rights in regards to their trial. Thats why I don't think the cases belong in a civil court.
| 525 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:17pm |
re: #507 LudwigVanQuixote
If you are talking about this or AGW you are lying.
LOL
Didn't take long to involve AGW, almost a Pavlovian response.
For the record, I have never knowing lied on this forum, even once. I may have been wrong or right, but I don't lie.
| 526 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:27pm |
I'm on Ludwig's side on this. Jefferson famously said, "This is a government of laws, not of men."
The law is uppermost. Crimes committed in the US must be tried under the US Constitution, even if the conspiracy occurred outside of the country.
| 527 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:28pm |
re: #516 Fenway_Nation
And the civil libertarians who maneuvered to block military tribunals from day one?
Yeah because those evil civil libertarians wanted the accused to have such outlandish things as access to a defense!
| 528 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:21:31pm |
re: #519 LudwigVanQuixote
That fair speedy open trials with adequate counsel is an American value?
What is incorrect about that?
It's not incorrect, as long is it's Americans you're talking about.
| 529 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:22:01pm |
re: #509 cliffster
If you say something incorrect a million times, it's still wrong.
"A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin.
| 530 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:22:09pm |
re: #526 austin_blue
I'm on Ludwig's side on this. Jefferson famously said, "This is a government of laws, not of men."
The law is uppermost. Crimes committed in the US must be tried under the US Constitution, even if the conspiracy occurred outside of the country.
Thanks buddy.
| 531 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:22:18pm |
re: #510 EmmmieG
In case anyone wants to discuss anything else, my boy now has the Gettysburg address memorized. 12 years old.
Question for discussion: Just how valuable, educationally, is memorizing speeches or poems.
Second question: My sister and I memorized a Shel Silverstein poem that we recite together. Is this a bad thing, or sisterly bonding?
My grandmother and I used to recite Dorothy Parker together. I think it's positive.
I, personally, like having kids memorize stuff. It's an accomplishment they can quantify, and it can be used to teach them speaking skills.
| 532 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:22:48pm |
| 534 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:23:17pm |
re: #524 Mich-again
The legal limbo exists because we can make war without declaring war, against a stateless enemy. The legal definition of prisoner-of-war status needs to be updated.
| 535 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:23:21pm |
| 536 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:23:34pm |
re: #524 Mich-again
If they were foreigners captured outside the USA for crimes committed outside the USA or planned against the USA, I don't see why they deserve any American civil rights in regards to their trial. Thats why I don't think the cases belong in a civil court.
I was confused by your comment about how they 'only came here' to attack.
| 537 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:23:34pm |
re: #532 NJDhockeyfan
jingoistic!
Drink!
I'm getting tipsy early in this one, better switch to wine.
| 538 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:24:02pm |
re: #528 cliffster
It's not incorrect, as long is it's Americans you're talking about.
We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal...
What does self evident mean?
What does all men mean?
Or do we Americans not believe that anymore? Sharmuta, do you care to claim that since this is the Declaration, and not the Constitution, we don't care anymore?
| 539 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:24:16pm |
Treating terrorism like a criminal justice matter didn't stop 9/11.
It help build up to it.
| 540 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:24:19pm |
re: #500 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so surprised. I said so many times, why don't people register this,
Military tribunals would have been fine if they had been fair, speedy, open, with adequate counsel and up to the standards of American Law.
Since the circumstance of tribunals for these men are so very questionable - because of shall we say irregularities in their detention, the best venue for them is one that would be less tainted with questions. Why, because I want the guilty ones to actually face real justice and not have our foes call it a show trial.
Ludwig, they'll call it a show trial no matter what we do. Al Jazeera will ask to have a reporter allowed into a civilian trial (and knowing Holder, he'll grant that request), and they'll use that "reporter" to unleash a tidal wave of lies about any trial. The trial will also almost certainly feature the judge suppressing some information in the name of national security, after which the secular left will declare the trial "tainted" anyway. We'll be attacked no matter what we do, so I say we use the more secure format.
| 541 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:24:28pm |
re: #526 austin_blue
I'm on Ludwig's side on this. Jefferson famously said, "This is a government of laws, not of men."
The law is uppermost. Crimes committed in the US must be tried under the US Constitution, even if the conspiracy occurred outside of the country.
So Iran declares war and somehow gets a ship to make landfall in Florida, and they bring an attack against Jacksonville. Our military goes in and snuffs out the attack, and takes 2000 prisoners. We give them all a civil trial?
| 542 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:24:57pm |
re: #519 LudwigVanQuixote
That fair speedy open trials with adequate counsel is an American value?
What is incorrect about that?
If we would have given KSM a speedy trial we would have gotten a wealth of intelligence about future terrorist attacks & how the Al Qaeda organization is run.
| 543 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:25:01pm |
re: #510 EmmmieG
In case anyone wants to discuss anything else, my boy now has the Gettysburg address memorized. 12 years old.
Question for discussion: Just how valuable, educationally, is memorizing speeches or poems.
Years from now, he will quote something apropos and erudite at a cocktail party, thus winning the heart of his beloved.
Second question: My sister and I memorized a Shel Silverstein poem that we recite together. Is this a bad thing, or sisterly bonding?
Depends which poem, is it erudite and apropos?
| 544 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:25:44pm |
re: #543 sagehen
Depends which poem, is it erudite and apropos?
Um, no, it's about spitting from the 26th floor. We are major fans of Shel Silverstein in my family, both extended and immediate.
| 545 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:25:51pm |
re: #535 austin_blue
No worries. This isn't Nuremberg. It's under *our* rules.
Send 'em to The Hague.
| 546 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:25:56pm |
re: #540 Dark_Falcon
Ludwig, they'll call it a show trial no matter what we do. Al Jazeera will ask to have a reporter allowed into a civilian trial (and knowing Holder, he'll grant that request), and they'll use that "reporter" to unleash a tidal wave of lies about any trial. The trial will also almost certainly feature the judge suppressing some information in the name of national security, after which the secular left will declare the trial "tainted" anyway. We'll be attacked no matter what we do, so I say we use the more secure format.
HOw is the other format "more secure"? I'm really serious. I don't understand. I would imagine that the security at the trial would be more to protect KSM from New York than New York from KSM.
| 548 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:26:34pm |
re: #538 LudwigVanQuixote
We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal
That's an assertion of the rights of common men against the rights of royalty, not a declaration that everyone in the world are instant American citizens.
| 549 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:26:37pm |
re: #541 cliffster
So Iran declares war and somehow gets a ship to make landfall in Florida, and they bring an attack against Jacksonville. Our military goes in and snuffs out the attack, and takes 2000 prisoners. We give them all a civil trial?
That's a whole different ball of wax. Declared war, nation-state, uniformed prisoners. We have long-established procedure to draw on there.
| 551 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:26:46pm |
re: #538 LudwigVanQuixote
American exceptionalism is teH eeevul!
/Hmm...if foriegn nationals detained by US or foreign security forces are entitltled to protections under the Bill of Rights, I wonder why that wouldn't apply to...I dunno...some American backpackers detained by Iran...
| 552 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:27:00pm |
re: #508 Dark_Falcon
That's not all of it. He wants to see if he can charm a "reversion" (in his mind those who become Wahabbis are simply reverting back to what they should have been all along) out of his guards. He also wants to project the image of unlimited defiance to make those who hear him think they face a war they cannot win. I hate the man, but KSM is a better than competent planner and he is cleaner acting according to a plan and his ultimate aim has always been our destruction.
Well said - I hope some of our congress critters will pick up on this and act likewise. But I have been hoping and voting that for decades. It's sre: #531 SanFranciscoZionist
o tiresome and I'm almost ready to bail out.
| 553 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:27:07pm |
re: #538 LudwigVanQuixote
We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal...
What does self evident mean?
What does all men mean?
Or do we Americans not believe that anymore? Sharmuta, do you care to claim that since this is the Declaration, and not the Constitution, we don't care anymore?
All men are created equal, but we do not presume to take responsibility for protecting the rights of anyone other than Americans. Notice how we weren't making arrests and putting on trials in Rwanda?
| 554 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:27:45pm |
re: #533 Sharmuta
So this is just a "crime" now?
Yes. Same as Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack. Terrorist attacks in the US are terrorist attacks and should be prosecuted in the US Courts. The precedent has been set.
How is this different except that it is more visceral? Does that affect the law? Because you are more pissed off on a gut level?
Take a deep breath.
| 555 |
Bob Dillon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:27:55pm |
re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist
My grandmother and I used to recite Dorothy Parker together. I think it's positive.
I, personally, like having kids memorize stuff. It's an accomplishment they can quantify, and it can be used to teach them speaking skills.
Righting the Educational Conveyor Belt
Not to push but a good resource.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]
| 556 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:28:00pm |
re: #522 sagehen
To quote John McCain, "It's not about who they are, it's about who we are."
Nice jingoism but its not that simple. Test the logic with an extreme example. What if Hitler had been captured. Would he have deserved a trial in the American civil court system with a chance at jury lottery?
| 557 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:28:11pm |
re: #548 jaunte
That's an assertion of the rights of common men against the rights of royalty, not a declaration that everyone in the world are instant American citizens.
No fair. Don't confuse him with facts.
| 558 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:29:14pm |
re: #556 Mich-again
Nice jingoism but its not that simple. Test the logic with an extreme example. What if Hitler had been captured. Would he have deserved a trial in the American civil court system with a chance at jury lottery?
Why would we have gotten him?
| 559 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:29:20pm |
re: #542 NJDhockeyfan
If we would have given KSM a speedy trial we would have gotten a wealth of intelligence about future terrorist attacks & how the Al Qaeda organization is run.
First off, people do get interrogated and then given fair and speedy trials. Right? Things can take months to go to court.
But I have a question. How do you know we got such awesome intelligence?
And how do you know that happened...?
Don't you constantly claim that the CIA lied to Bush about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Why wouldn't they lie now to save their asses?
The point is that OF COURSE the CIA claims it was worth torturing them. They would do it if it were true, and they would do it if it were false, and we have no idea what was actually revealed or not.
| 560 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:29:29pm |
re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist
That's a whole different ball of wax. Declared war, nation-state, uniformed prisoners. We have long-established procedure to draw on there.
And how we deal with un-uniformed spies and saboteurs is long-established as well.
| 561 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:29:37pm |
re: #556 Mich-again
Nice jingoism but its not that simple. Test the logic with an extreme example. What if Hitler had been captured. Would he have deserved a trial in the American civil court system with a chance at jury lottery?
Or the hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese soldiers? We'd be litigating until today.
| 562 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:30:09pm |
re: #556 Mich-again
Nice jingoism but its not that simple. Test the logic with an extreme example. What if Hitler had been captured. Would he have deserved a trial in the American civil court system with a chance at jury lottery?
We were being very polite to our allies in WWII. No matter who would have gotten him, he would have had an International Trial.
| 563 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:30:21pm |
| 564 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:30:29pm |
Well...my clueless jingoistic ass is going to self-deport to Pyongyang the kitchen for a few...can I get anybody anything while I'm up?
| 565 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:30:39pm |
SO Bagua and Sharmuta are dinging down the Declaration of Independence and you wonder why I question some people's love of American values.
Good Show!
| 566 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:25pm |
re: #554 austin_blue
Yes. Same as Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack. Terrorist attacks in the US are terrorist attacks and should be prosecuted in the US Courts. The precedent has been set.
How is this different except that it is more visceral? Does that affect the law? Because you are more pissed off on a gut level?
Take a deep breath.
Timothy McVeigh was not taken custody on a battlefield.
| 567 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:27pm |
re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist
That's a whole different ball of wax. Declared war, nation-state, uniformed prisoners. We have long-established procedure to draw on there.
Al Qaeda declared war against us a long time ago.
| 568 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:34pm |
re: #560 Bagua
And how we deal with un-uniformed spies and saboteurs is long-established as well.
KSM isn't exactly either of those.
| 569 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:48pm |
re: #554 austin_blue
How is this different except that it is more visceral? Does that affect the law? Because you are more pissed off on a gut level?
The planning, execution, and terrorist organization behind it- that's how it's different. It affects the law because they weren't arrest by law enforcement. And I'm equally pissed off at both "crimes".
Take a deep breath.
Don't assume.
| 570 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:53pm |
Sharmuta, why do you hate America?
///*sheesh*
| 571 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:31:58pm |
re: #554 austin_blue
Yes. Same as Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack. Terrorist attacks in the US are terrorist attacks and should be prosecuted in the US Courts. The precedent has been set.
How is this different except that it is more visceral? Does that affect the law? Because you are more pissed off on a gut level?
Take a deep breath.
Take a deep breath, Tim McVeigh was an American citizen arrested by civil authorities on US soil.
| 572 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:08pm |
re: #561 solomonpanting
Or the hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese soldiers? We'd be litigating until today.
Hmmm. What DID we do with those guys?
//
| 573 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:09pm |
re: #567 NJDhockeyfan
Al Qaeda declared war against us a long time ago.
Really? I though there had to be a nation to declare war.
| 574 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:31pm |
| 575 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:45pm |
re: #573 LudwigVanQuixote
Really? I though there had to be a nation to declare war.
So did a lot of people before 2001.
| 576 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:51pm |
re: #563 sagehen
Looks to me like a
mass murderdeclaration of war.
/fixed
Osama took safe haven in Afghanistan. The government there supported what he did. Others went to Afghanistan to join the fight in the WAR against America, and the West.
We are still at war with these people.
| 577 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:32:59pm |
re: #567 NJDhockeyfan
Al Qaeda declared war against us a long time ago.
I could declare war against Mongolia, but it wouldn't make me a nation-state.
| 578 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:33:02pm |
re: #572 SanFranciscoZionist
Hmmm. What DID we do with those guys?
//
In all honesty, most we held, then released. Some were executed summarily.
War is not a clean place.
| 580 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:33:25pm |
| 581 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:33:59pm |
re: #568 SanFranciscoZionist
KSM isn't exactly either of those.
EXACTLY! Many have claimed this Islamist, Jihadi threat is a new type of threat/crime/terror. Perhaps it derserves a new type of response?
| 582 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:34:32pm |
re: #573 LudwigVanQuixote
Really? I though there had to be a nation to declare war.
This is the new problem we must solve. Non-state actors can now make war effectively. How do you deal with them without having to follow civil police procedure on an unconventional battlefield?
| 584 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:35:04pm |
re: #580 NJDhockeyfan
Captured on the battlefield?
I mean, why would the U.S have taken him home? I assume it would have been done at Nuremberg.
| 585 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:35:21pm |
re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote
SO Bagua and Sharmuta are dinging down the Declaration of Independence and you wonder why I question some people's love of American values.
Good Show!
Typical Ludwig distortion and redirection, immediately starts debating the StrawBagua and the StrawSharmuta.
This is very common when debating with Ludwig as I have mentioned on numerous threads.
| 586 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:35:24pm |
re: #558 SanFranciscoZionist
Why would we have gotten him?
I said test the logic with an extreme example so assume that was the case.
| 587 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:35:56pm |
re: #559 LudwigVanQuixote
First off, people do get interrogated and then given fair and speedy trials. Right? Things can take months to go to court.
But I have a question. How do you know we got such awesome intelligence?
And how do you know that happened...?
Don't you constantly claim that the CIA lied to Bush about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Why wouldn't they lie now to save their asses?
The point is that OF COURSE the CIA claims it was worth torturing them. They would do it if it were true, and they would do it if it were false, and we have no idea what was actually revealed or not.
They stopped a terrorist attack in Los Angeles and a few other places, unless the information he gave the CIA was pure coincidence.
| 588 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:36:34pm |
re: #548 jaunte
Really, because I sure thought it said that We held (as in we Americans believe) as a self evident truth (as in utterly obvious as a truth) that all (as in everyone) men were created equal. It doesn't seem to say anything about citizenship. And you know every time we go to war and talk about liberating people, we claim we are bringing those values to them - and they aren't even Americans!
That was so utterly hypocritical on so many levels I don't have words for it.
| 589 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:36:41pm |
re: #560 Bagua
And how we deal with un-uniformed spies and saboteurs is long-established as well.
| 590 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:36:58pm |
re: #568 SanFranciscoZionist
KSM isn't exactly either of those.
He was surely as saboteur, a combatant who did not follow the internationally accepted rules of war.
| 591 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:37:19pm |
re: #582 jaunte
This is the new problem we must solve. Non-state actors can now make war effectively. How do you deal with them without having to follow civil police procedure on an unconventional battlefield?
BOMB THE %&*^&%$s IN THE ENTIRE REGION INTO THE STONE AGE!
*Looks around* Oh, wait, am I not at Hot Air? Let me see if I can come up with a realistic answer.
(1. I don't post at Hot Air. I'm being sarcastic.)
(2. I don't swear, either, so that says "gosh darn jerks".)
| 592 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:37:35pm |
re: #582 jaunte
This is the new problem we must solve. Non-state actors can now make war effectively. How do you deal with them without having to follow civil police procedure on an unconventional battlefield?
EggZactly!
Throw in "state sponsored terror" and things get a little clearer but not much. Iran is a prime example. By LVQ logic, should we arrest and hold trials for the Iranians who commit terrorist acts in Iraq?
| 593 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:37:50pm |
re: #576 Racer X
/fixed
Osama took safe haven in Afghanistan. The government there supported what he did. Others went to Afghanistan to join the fight in the WAR against America, and the West.
We are still at war with these people.
I agree, but that is beside the point. We have brought these people here to face justice for conspiracy to commit mass murder in the US. Since the acts were committed in the US, it is right and appropriate that they be tried in civil courts, just as McVeigh and the '93 WTC bombers were. They did not attack US troops. The attack occurred before any US involvement in Afghanistan or Iraq.
| 594 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:38:44pm |
re: #581 solomonpanting
EXACTLY! Many have claimed this Islamist, Jihadi threat is a new type of threat/crime/terror. Perhaps it derserves a new type of response?
Perhaps. I will confess to being somewhat disturbed, however, that discussions of how to best deal with such a threat usually degenerate into mockery and accusations of naivete or lack of patriotism. And if anyone here thinks I'm just talking about the people who they don't agree with, I ain't.
And such times I always recall a very drunk conversation with a coworker in the late fall of 2001. I kept saying "How do you fight a war with an NGO?" And she kept saying "You liberals just don't understand how people like me feel about America."
| 595 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:38:50pm |
re: #556 Mich-again
Nice jingoism but its not that simple. Test the logic with an extreme example. What if Hitler had been captured. Would he have deserved a trial in the American civil court system with a chance at jury lottery?
If he'd been captured, he would have stood trial in the same Nuremberg courtroom, with a similar jury, as the other people we captured.
Jim Comey and Jack Goldsmith are about as conservative as lawyers get, and they're backing the civil trial.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
One reason commissions have not worked well is that changes in constitutional, international and military laws since they were last used, during World War II, have produced great uncertainty about the commissions' validity. This uncertainty has led to many legal challenges that will continue indefinitely -- hardly an ideal situation for the trial of the century.
By contrast, there is no question about the legitimacy of U.S. federal courts to incapacitate terrorists. Many of Holder's critics appear to have forgotten that the Bush administration used civilian courts to put away dozens of terrorists, including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid; al-Qaeda agent Jose Padilla; "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh; the Lackawanna Six; and Zacarias Moussaoui, who was prosecuted for the same conspiracy for which Mohammed is likely to be charged. Many of these terrorists are locked in a supermax prison in Colorado, never to be seen again.
| 596 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:38:54pm |
re: #541 cliffster
So Iran declares war and somehow gets a ship to make landfall in Florida, and they bring an attack against Jacksonville. Our military goes in and snuffs out the attack, and takes 2000 prisoners. We give them all a civil trial?
"Iran declares war." See the difference?
| 597 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:38:57pm |
re: #588 LudwigVanQuixote
Really, because I sure thought it said that We held (as in we Americans believe) as a self evident truth (as in utterly obvious as a truth) that all (as in everyone) men were created equal. It doesn't seem to say anything about citizenship.
You have to read to the end:
We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
| 598 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:39:10pm |
re: #572 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #561 solomonpanting
Or the hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese soldiers? We'd be litigating until today.
Hmmm. What DID we do with those guys?
//
We released them and they returned to the battlefield to war upon us once again.
//
| 599 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:39:17pm |
re: #585 Bagua
Typical Ludwig distortion and redirection, immediately starts debating the StrawBagua and the StrawSharmuta.
This is very common when debating with Ludwig as I have mentioned on numerous threads.
No it's a straight fact that you down dinged a direct quote of the Declaration of Independence and an assertion that those were American values.
Nothing straw about that, calling it straw would be a lie.
But then again you lied about never lying and you even lied about not talking to me.
So what can I expect except more lies?
| 600 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:39:26pm |
re: #586 Mich-again
I said test the logic with an extreme example so assume that was the case.
Shrug.
| 601 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:39:39pm |
| 602 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:03pm |
| 603 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:05pm |
re: #587 NJDhockeyfan
They stopped a terrorist attack in Los Angeles and a few other places, unless the information he gave the CIA was pure coincidence.
How do you know this? Did you see the evidence that this was so, and do please answer, if the CIA is that good, why do you blame their false intelligence for the Iraq war?
| 604 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:38pm |
re: #562 EmmmieG
We were being very polite to our allies in WWII. No matter who would have gotten him, he would have had an International Trial.
I agree with that assessment. But what I seem to be reading here is that acts of war are civil crimes.
I guess it comes down to do you think 9/11 was an act of war. I say it was so the perps do not deserve American civil rights protection. I also say to the argument that it was not an act of war, why should non-soldiers deserve Geneva Convention rights.
You can't have them both. If they deserve Geneva Convention rights, it must have been a war. If it was a war, they don't deserve American civil rights.
| 605 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:48pm |
re: #593 austin_blue
I agree, but that is beside the point. We have brought these people here to face justice for conspiracy to commit mass murder in the US. Since the acts were committed in the US, it is right and appropriate that they be tried in civil courts, just as McVeigh and the '93 WTC bombers were. They did not attack US troops. The attack occurred before any US involvement in Afghanistan or Iraq.
The first WTC attacks should not have been tried civil court. It was state sponsored terror, which was a declaration of WAR.
| 606 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:50pm |
re: #592 Racer X
EggZactly!
Throw in "state sponsored terror" and things get a little clearer but not much. Iran is a prime example. By LVQ logic, should we arrest and hold trials for the Iranians who commit terrorist acts in Iraq?
After all, these terrorists are our equals, let's not deprive them of their rights.
| 607 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:40:56pm |
re: #546 LudwigVanQuixote
HOw is the other format "more secure"? I'm really serious. I don't understand. I would imagine that the security at the trial would be more to protect KSM from New York than New York from KSM.
The sercurity I'm talking about is information security. Our ability to limit disclosures of sensitive information. Tribunals could also be more readily closed to hostile "reporters". We would of course have to allow in some reporters and most of them would be liberal. I'm not planning on some heavy-handed version of information management, as that really would be the sort of stuff Russia does.
| 608 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:41:41pm |
| 609 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:41:56pm |
| 610 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:41:56pm |
re: #597 jaunte
Right so they establish their authority to claim as a nation that WE HOLD THOSE TRUTHS TO BE SELF EVIDENT.
You have to not just read to the end, but read what it actually means.
| 611 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:42:00pm |
re: #429 Racer X
Q: Have you heard about McDonalds new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.
Starrybucks is trying to make it new again.
I'm just SUCH a disappointment.
Really, the car in front of me is buying my drinks?
COOL! Thanks!
| 612 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:42:10pm |
re: #595 sagehen
If he'd been captured, he would have stood trial in the same Nuremberg courtroom, with a similar jury, as the other people we captured.
Tell me, did the defendants in the Nuremburg courtroom have the full protection of the American court system and all of the civil rights privileges that go along with it?
| 613 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:42:23pm |
| 614 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:42:46pm |
re: #610 LudwigVanQuixote
The Declaration means everyone on earth is a 'potential' U.S. citizen, but doesn't grant them that status.
| 615 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:42:59pm |
Just so everyone knows I will be inserting a quote from the Declaration of Independence into every one of my posts so that I never receive another downding.
Just letting y'all know.
Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
| 616 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:43:02pm |
re: #593 austin_blue
I agree, but that is beside the point. We have brought these people here to face justice for conspiracy to commit mass murder in the US. Since the acts were committed in the US, it is right and appropriate that they be tried in civil courts, just as McVeigh and the '93 WTC bombers were. They did not attack US troops. The attack occurred before any US involvement in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Who is this "we" paleface? It was the abomination of bringing they to the US that we are arguing against.
And McVeigh was a US citizen, get real.
| 617 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:43:05pm |
re: #597 jaunte
Someone dinged you down. They must hate the Declaration... ///
| 618 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:43:16pm |
| 619 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:44:17pm |
re: #607 Dark_Falcon
The sercurity I'm talking about is information security. Our ability to limit disclosures of sensitive information. Tribunals could also be more readily closed to hostile "reporters". We would of course have to allow in some reporters and most of them would be liberal. I'm not planning on some heavy-handed version of information management, as that really would be the sort of stuff Russia does.
There are all sorts of measures routinely taken in high profile cases to prevent that. The wingnuts made a stink that the Mousoui trial let people know that the US was monitoring them. Really, they were surprised to find out we would be interested? I don't buy the argument.
| 620 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:44:35pm |
re: #587 NJDhockeyfan
They stopped a terrorist attack in Los Angeles and a few other places, unless the information he gave the CIA was pure coincidence.
If you're referring to the Library Tower, that plot was foiled before KSM was ever in our custody.
| 621 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:45:23pm |
Iran declared war against America in 1979. They have repeated this declaration many times since. The reason hostilities has not escalated YET, is that so far they lack the means to be a serious threat. They are getting the means, and clearly intend to fight the war. Other people, and nations, want to fight with them.
We just choose not to believe it.
| 622 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:45:25pm |
re: #589 NJDhockeyfan
That was FDR. BHO could never measure up to him. Obama doesn't know what its like to really have to fight for something, nor does he have Roosevelt's courage. He would not have been fit to push FDR's wheelchair.
| 623 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:45:55pm |
re: #606 Bagua
After all, these terrorists are our equals, let's not deprive them of their rights.
NO, by our ideals they are innocent until proven guilty and they are not terrorists until convicted by the rule of law.
THose are some of those American values you are mocking now.
| 624 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:46:19pm |
The same people that get pissed at the US "policing the world" think that our founding documents should apply to everyone in the world. Interesting.
| 625 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:46:26pm |
| 626 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:46:57pm |
| 627 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:05pm |
re: #624 cliffster
The same people that get pissed at the US "policing the world" think that our founding documents should apply to everyone in the world. Interesting.
BANG!
Thats gonna leave a mark.
| 628 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:09pm |
re: #599 LudwigVanQuixote
No it's a straight fact that you down dinged a direct quote of the Declaration of Independence and an assertion that those were American values.
Nothing straw about that, calling it straw would be a lie.
But then again you lied about never lying and you even lied about not talking to me.
So what can I expect except more lies?
Nope, no lie from me or Sharmuta, nor were we downding the Declaration of Independence, rather we were downdinging your abuse of it.
| 629 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:36pm |
| 630 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:38pm |
re: #600 SanFranciscoZionist
Shrug.
Always always test logic with an extreme example. If it holds true, good. If it gets murky or even reverses itself, look out because then it becomes a question of defining where the tipping point is.
Logic doesn't have a tipping point where it reverses on itself. The question of do foreign agents who plot against the USA deserve full civil rights protection is not a logical argument. Its a question of how much is too much.
| 631 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:52pm |
re: #623 LudwigVanQuixote
NO, by our ideals they are innocent until proven guilty and they are not terrorists until convicted by the rule of law.
You might want to tell the President that since he's declared KSM guilty and marked for death.
| 632 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:53pm |
And now Sharmuta is dinging down innocent until proven guilty. What kind of idiot would think that accused people are innocent untill proven guilty? Where would I get such a fanciful notion?
Good show!
| 633 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:47:54pm |
re: #613 cliffster
Yes, he was.
No, he wasn't. He was captured in Pakistan. His capture was nowhere near any active war zone, it wasn't even in the tribal zone. I hold that a tribunal is how to deal with him, but he was not captured on the battlefield.
| 634 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:48:56pm |
re: #239 Decatur Deb
The overall debt and unfunded promises went up under Clinton as well I believe. Remember, there's a reason why Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and more are considered "off budget" items. They don't even count into the overall fiscal picture. When you hear we're 12 trillion in debt, or when you hear that this year's deficit is 1 trillion or whatever, that doesn't even include those items I listed.
I could promise the universe to my constituents if all I had to do was print money and have a never ending limit on my credit card that gets paid back by printing out more Benjamin's whenever I needed to.
The entire real dollar value of everything in the US down to the keyboard I'm typing on now is valued at about 55 trillion dollars. If the US government was able to seize everything in the country; real estate, infrastructure, grandma's hidden marijuana stash, all of it, and sell it a great big garage sale and get fair market value for every last item... it still wouldn't be enough to pay for what we owe and what we have promised sitting there in paper-only IOU's. So, the next time a politician tells you that he or she is going to go after the richy riches making over 250K to pay for all of this free stuff, don't believe it. Not for a second. It's impossible and it's a complete lie. Moreover, even taking into consideration the entire nation's GDP at about 14 trillion per year, that means that even if the government was the recipient of every cent of that wealth, it would take 4 to 8 years (depending upon whose frightening numbers you believe for the total debt) just to pay off what we owe now.
I'm not a sky is falling kinda guy. This is America, and I know we can fix this. But I'm also a realist. And this isn't good. And we can't keep pretending it's not there nor can we continue to look to Capitol Hill for the fix and clap wildly every time members of Congress trot out some obscene legislation designed only to save their asses long enough to get re-elected and live like the oligarchs they are.
| 635 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:48:59pm |
Got some marshmallows. Graham crackers, too. Anyone have some Hershey's chocolate? I can make do with chocolate chips, if I have to.
I'm just waiting for the flames to get as hot as the other night. No point in wasting good flames.
| 636 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:05pm |
re: #631 Sharmuta
You might want to tell the President that since he's declared KSM guilty and marked for death.
Even though he reversed himself quickly, that could be seen as prejudicial.
| 637 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:15pm |
re: #631 Sharmuta
You might want to tell the President that since he's declared KSM guilty and marked for death.
He (KSM) behaved stupidly.
| 638 |
Stanghazi Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:17pm |
Just popping in - how's everyone doing??? Here's something CUTE
[Link: www.sandiegozoo.org...]
The baby and mom are very active right now.
| 639 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:19pm |
re: #630 Mich-again
Always always test logic with an extreme example. If it holds true, good. If it gets murky or even reverses itself, look out because then it becomes a question of defining where the tipping point is.
Logic doesn't have a tipping point where it reverses on itself. The question of do foreign agents who plot against the USA deserve full civil rights protection is not a logical argument. Its a question of how much is too much.
It was a different time, and a radically different context.
We would have tried him at Nuremberg. That's what would have happened.
| 640 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:42pm |
re: #628 Bagua
Nope, no lie from me or Sharmuta, nor were we downding the Declaration of Independence, rather we were downdinging your abuse of it.
So it doesn't say that we hold as self evident that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights?
Which is a good point by the way, because we Americans believe that not only is everyone equal as a nation, but that they have rights! JUST FOR BEING PEOPLE! can you belive that! And we even say those rights can not be taken away.
Look up what inalienable means.
| 641 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:45pm |
re: #633 Dark_Falcon
No, he wasn't. He was captured in Pakistan. His capture was nowhere near any active war zone, it wasn't even in the tribal zone. I hold that a tribunal is how to deal with him, but he was not captured on the battlefield.
I see your point, but I say he was. He chose to make the battlefield larger.
| 642 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:49:50pm |
re: #613 cliffster
Yes, he was.
No.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on March 1, 2003, by the Pakistani ISI, possibly in a joint action with agents of the American Diplomatic Security Service, and has been in U.S. custody since that time.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 643 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:50:13pm |
re: #632 LudwigVanQuixote
And now Sharmuta is dinging down innocent until proven guilty. What kind of idiot would think that accused people are innocent untill proven guilty? Where would I get such a fanciful notion?
Good show!
You are making your arguments personal. This is a flawed tactic.
IMO
| 644 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:50:15pm |
re: #631 Sharmuta
You might want to tell the President that since he's declared KSM guilty and marked for death.
And he was wrong to do that.
| 645 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:50:49pm |
re: #605 Racer X
The first WTC attacks should not have been tried civil court. It was state sponsored terror, which was a declaration of WAR.
But they were. Done deal, precedent set, successful prosecutions. Bad guys in prison for a long long long time. And it wasn't "state sponsored".
re: #608 Racer X
Iran HAS declared war.
Please note, organizations like Al Queda are stateless, which is why they are so dangerous. State-sponsored terrorist groups are *political*. (That would be why states support them, see?) Groups like Al Queda are nihilistic and only exist to project their own whack philosophy.
If you don't understand that simple concept, you don't understand the real danger of Islamic radicalism.
| 646 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:51:31pm |
re: #632 LudwigVanQuixote
And now Sharmuta is dinging down innocent until proven guilty. What kind of idiot would think that accused people are innocent untill proven guilty? Where would I get such a fanciful notion?
Good show!
| 647 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:52:05pm |
re: #642 sagehen
For the purposes of the argument, that is getting captured in the battlefield. I can see where you'd disagree, but that's how I feel.
| 648 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:52:38pm |
re: #645 austin_blue
Please note, organizations like Al Queda are stateless, which is why they are so dangerous. State-sponsored terrorist groups are *political*. (That would be why states support them, see?) Groups like Al Queda are nihilistic and only exist to project their own whack philosophy.
If you don't understand that simple concept, you don't understand the real danger of Islamic radicalism.
I understand the danger.
State sponsored terror is an act of war. Is it not?
| 649 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:52:44pm |
re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote
SO Bagua and Sharmuta are dinging down the Declaration of Independence and you wonder why I question some people's love of American values.
Good Show!
No. They're dinging down *you*.
| 650 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:52:53pm |
re: #643 Racer X
You are making your arguments personal. This is a flawed tactic.
IMO
They made it personal a long time ago. Please look up thread and be a little fair to me. And if you really wanted to know Sharm is pissed at me because of something else entirely. And I assure you it is personal.
There is another poster here she is feuding with, and Sharm is angry that I don't hate that person enough.
| 652 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:53:39pm |
| 653 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:55:03pm |
re: #649 MandyManners
No. They're dinging down *you*.
Whether or not what I say is true and at the core of our MAerican value system. How mature.
And I am currently getting this shit for what - oh yes, calling you and others like you who do not value the rule of law to be hypocrites. Either we stand for things like fair, open and speedy hearings or we do not.
IN America we do.
True statement there Mandy.
If you don't like it, go piss up a rope.
| 654 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:55:03pm |
re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm a pathetic person worthy of North Korea in your opinion and that is my problem with you.
Nice try though.
| 655 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:55:37pm |
re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote
They made it personal a long time ago. Please look up thread and be a little fair to me. And if you really wanted to know Sharm is pissed at me because of something else entirely. And I assure you it is personal.
There is another poster here she is feuding with, and Sharm is angry that I don't hate that person enough.
Out of line. She has explained her dings when you have frantically called for explanations and has posted rebuttals showing she doesn't agree with you. To try to pin this on something else is an extremely weak tactic and, frankly, embarrassing.
| 656 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:56:06pm |
September 11, 2001 - NY, NY
| 657 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:56:32pm |
re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist
It was a different time, and a radically different context.
So were the times of the aftermath of the Revolutionary War when the Constitution was written in the 1780's.
| 658 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:56:32pm |
re: #654 Sharmuta
I'm a pathetic person worthy of North Korea in your opinion and that is my problem with you.
Nice try though.
Well I don't know, the Norks don't believe that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights either.
I thought you disagreed with them. Imagine my shock that you do agree.
| 659 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:56:52pm |
Hypocrites are people who bend over backwards to grant American rights to al-qaeda scum, but they'll revoke their fellow American's rights the moment they disagree with them.
| 660 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:57:00pm |
re: #655 Bloodnok
Out of line. She has explained her dings when you have frantically called for explanations and has posted rebuttals showing she doesn't agree with you. To try to pin this on something else is an extremely weak tactic and, frankly, embarrassing.
But you also personally know it is true.
| 661 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:57:04pm |
| 662 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:57:32pm |
re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote
They made it personal a long time ago. Please look up thread and be a little fair to me. And if you really wanted to know Sharm is pissed at me because of something else entirely. And I assure you it is personal.
There is another poster here she is feuding with, and Sharm is angry that I don't hate that person enough.
OK then.
You want America to rise above what others do and take the high road. Yet you yourself have a hard time doing just that. Its not so easy is it? When someone yells at you and demeans you there is a tendency to respond in kind. I see it here on this thread.
How is terrorism any different? When someone pokes you in the eye with a stick the first reactions is to poke back.
| 663 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:57:48pm |
re: #653 LudwigVanQuixote
You keep saying this, and you keep ignoring the fact that we never presumed to cover the entire world by our own Bill of Rights.
| 664 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:57:49pm |
re: #616 Bagua
Who is this "we" paleface? It was the abomination of bringing they to the US that we are arguing against.
And McVeigh was a US citizen, get real.
"We"? That would be the collective "we" of the US Government when they arrived as prisoners in Government custody in a US Territory like Gitmo. Were the WTC bombers in '93 US citizens? No? Precedent!
| 666 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:58:21pm |
re: #657 Mich-again
So were the times of the aftermath of the Revolutionary War when the Constitution was written in the 1780's.
True. I have no idea where they would have tried Hitler, though.
| 667 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:58:21pm |
re: #661 Bagua
I had a relative knocked down by the bus blast.
Did you? Made it safe right?
Was looking for other footage here from the numerous attacks. Hard to fin of the Pentagon that isn't tainted by the truther crazies.
| 668 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:58:25pm |
re: #658 LudwigVanQuixote
Pathetic. You couldn't form a well reasoned argument to save your life, so you resort to ad hominem and other logical fallacies. Carry on.
| 669 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:58:50pm |
re: #653 LudwigVanQuixote
I think the problem in this debate is that we are talking about prisoners of war who are not, for 'legal limbo' reasons, called prisoners of war. They have historically been held until hostilities end. This is something new in history.
| 671 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:59:17pm |
| 672 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:59:47pm |
re: #666 SanFranciscoZionist
True. I have no idea where they would have tried Hitler, though.
Oh thats easy, they would have shot him right there. No trial.
| 673 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 9:59:56pm |
re: #663 cliffster
You keep saying this, and you keep ignoring the fact that we never presumed to cover the entire world by our own Bill of Rights.
Except when we speechify about how we bring liberty to them when we liberate them during war, or overturn their fanatical regime.
Aren't we building Democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Isn't that what we say?
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
Cliffster, the force of your hypocrisy is mind numbing.
| 674 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:03pm |
re: #664 austin_blue
"We"? That would be the collective "we" of the US Government when they arrived as prisoners in Government custody in a US Territory like Gitmo. Were the WTC bombers in '93 US citizens? No? Precedent!
Nope. They deserve no rights.
| 675 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:21pm |
re: #669 jaunte
I think the problem in this debate is that we are talking about prisoners of war who are not, for 'legal limbo' reasons, called prisoners of war. They have historically been held until hostilities end. This is something new in history.
The problem here is that hostilities are never going to end. We will never sign a treaty with al-Qaeda and call it a day.
How do you go to war with an NGO?
| 676 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:27pm |
re: #634 borgcube
...all of it, and sell it a great big garage sale and get fair market value for every last item... it still wouldn't be enough to pay for what we owe and what we have promised sitting there in paper-only IOU's.
Only if "what we owe and what we have promised" includes the next 50 years worth of Social Security and Medicare.
But I'm sort of assuming there'll be 50 years worth of economic growth, and 50 years worth of tax revenue, during those 50 years.
Perhaps I shouldn't assume.
| 677 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:32pm |
| 678 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:36pm |
| 679 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:50pm |
re: #671 Racer X
Blue pill.
Did you see the Mythbusters where they proved that the best method for keeping your Christmas tree good-looking as well as keeping more needles from falling off the tree than just water was...
Add a blue pill to the water.
Seriously. Apparently, it keeps everything up.
| 680 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:00:53pm |
| 681 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:01:12pm |
re: #674 Bagua
Nope. They deserve no rights.
Because you don't believe that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights.
Like I said, you clearly do not believe in American values. You proved it right there.
| 682 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:01:14pm |
re: #675 SanFranciscoZionist
The problem here is that hostilities are never going to end. We will never sign a treaty with al-Qaeda and call it a day.
How do you go to war with an NGO?
This is the real problem, however much heat is expended over this trial.
| 683 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:01:28pm |
re: #672 Mich-again
Oh thats easy, they would have shot him right there. No trial.
Why do you believe that?
| 684 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:01:41pm |
| 686 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:02:32pm |
re: #676 sagehen
Only if "what we owe and what we have promised" includes the next 50 years worth of Social Security and Medicare.
But I'm sort of assuming there'll be 50 years worth of economic growth, and 50 years worth of tax revenue, during those 50 years.
Perhaps I shouldn't assume.
Actually, historically, no, you shouldn't assume.
Social Security did not anticipate the ability to control family size. To work, it required a constant rate of growth, not sudden baby boom/babybust cycles.
| 687 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:02:53pm |
re: #656 Gus 802
September 11, 2001 - NY, NY
I was awakened, by ny sister, whi worked in NYC, to the 1st tower blast, and the fact that she had to leave. to get home. She & her husband were "allright", they just needed to get out of downtown.
I turned on the "teevee" as Cato would say, in time to see the second plane hit. My sis got home in a couple of hours, BIL, walked for more than 8 hours to get home. But, they were safe. Many friends & neighbors of theirs, were not. Summit, NJ, was the hardest hit town by 9-11, outside iof NYC.
| 688 |
MandyManners Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:03:02pm |
I've not seen such ad hominen since Wednesday.
I'm outta' here.
| 689 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:03:10pm |
re: #669 jaunte
I think the problem in this debate is that we are talking about prisoners of war who are not, for 'legal limbo' reasons, called prisoners of war. They have historically been held until hostilities end. This is something new in history.
Exactly. That is my whole point! Doing such a thing is against our principles as Americans. There is no declared war to end.
Thank you.
| 691 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:03:44pm |
re: #673 LudwigVanQuixote
Except when we speechify about how we bring liberty to them when we liberate them during war, or overturn their fanatical regime.
Aren't we building Democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Isn't that what we say?
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
Cliffster, the force of your hypocrisy is mind numbing.
Your numb mind has nothing to do with me.
| 692 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:03:54pm |
re: #669 jaunte
I think the problem in this debate is that we are talking about prisoners of war who are not, for 'legal limbo' reasons, called prisoners of war. They have historically been held until hostilities end. This is something new in history.
They weren't soldiers so they can't be prisoners of war.
| 693 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:04:04pm |
re: #676 sagehen
I don't think those numbers extend that far, do they?
| 694 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:04:17pm |
re: #689 LudwigVanQuixote
And the war would continue whether we declare it over or not.
| 695 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:04:30pm |
| 696 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:09pm |
re: #692 Mich-again
They weren't soldiers so they can't be prisoners of war.
So, what on earth are they?
| 697 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:10pm |
| 698 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:18pm |
I must admit this is one of the more contentious issues I've seen here
in the last year.
| 699 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:23pm |
re: #688 MandyManners
I've not seen such ad hominen since Wednesday.
I'm outta' here.
Mandy, you are the primary shouter of F you on LGF and all sorts of other stuff.
For you to whine about ad hominem, particularly here there isn't so much of it is kinda like a terrorist claiming that he is the victim. It's well, very Palestinian of you.
| 700 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:35pm |
re: #681 LudwigVanQuixote
Because you don't believe that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights.
Like I said, you clearly do not believe in American values. You proved it right there.
Wrong, they were born with certain rights, though certainly none under the American Constitution, once they chose to hijack airplanes full of passengers and fly them into the Towers, among out atrocities, they forfeited a great many of the rights that humans enjoy.
| 701 |
Boston Patriot Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:36pm |
Just watched SNL. Al Gore Makes me nauseous. This man desperately wants to be seen as mankind's friend and savior. Gag.
| 702 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:05:50pm |
re: #681 LudwigVanQuixote
Because you don't believe that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights.
Like I said, you clearly do not believe in American values. You proved it right there.
You just don't get it. You proved it right there.
| 703 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:06:14pm |
re: #697 Gus 802
September 21, 2008 - Islamabad, Pakistan
[Video]
Gus, is there a reason you're running Terrorism's Greatest Hits?
| 704 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:06:15pm |
re: #687 Floral Giraffe
I was awakened, by ny sister, whi worked in NYC, to the 1st tower blast, and the fact that she had to leave. to get home. She & her husband were "allright", they just needed to get out of downtown.
I turned on the "teevee" as Cato would say, in time to see the second plane hit. My sis got home in a couple of hours, BIL, walked for more than 8 hours to get home. But, they were safe. Many friends & neighbors of theirs, were not. Summit, NJ, was the hardest hit town by 9-11, outside iof NYC.
I was born in Summit.
| 706 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:06:26pm |
re: #671 Racer X
Blue pill.
No, red pill. We have to see this thing through to the end.
/changed the Viagra reference to a Matrix reference.
| 707 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:07:06pm |
re: #703 SanFranciscoZionist
Gus, is there a reason you're running Terrorism's Greatest Hits?
Just a reminder for our faithful readers.
| 708 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:07:49pm |
re: #691 cliffster
Your numb mind has nothing to do with me.
That hurts.
Could you please then explain about how we don't extend American values to others when we speechify about how we bring liberty to them when we liberate them during war, or overturn their fanatical regime?
I repeat, don't we justify most of our actions based on the notion of bringing American style liberties to others?
Aren't we building Democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Isn't that what we say?
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
Could you please answer... or are you going to call names some more?
| 709 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:07:57pm |
re: #674 Bagua
Nope. They deserve no rights.
Yes they do. Precedent.
You may not like it. You may rail against it. You may feel that they aren't really human. You may feel that they need to be treated like shit scraped off your shoe.
I might agree.
But the fact is that they do have rights. Suck it up.
| 710 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:08:15pm |
re: #699 LudwigVanQuixote
Mandy, you are the primary shouter of F you on LGF and all sorts of other stuff.
For you to whine about ad hominem, particularly here there isn't so much of it is kinda like a terrorist claiming that he is the victim. It's well, very Palestinian of you.
Hits new low, continues to scrape frantically.
| 711 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:08:19pm |
re: #699 LudwigVanQuixote
Mandy, you are the primary shouter of F you on LGF and all sorts of other stuff.
For you to whine about ad hominem, particularly here there isn't so much of it is kinda like a terrorist claiming that he is the victim. It's well, very Palestinian of you.
More personal attacks. Shocka!
| 712 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:08:29pm |
| 713 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:08:37pm |
Cool.
So we are all in agreement now. This Jihad against America and the West, and the War on Terror is a new phenomenon. The combatants against us may or may not be part of state sponsored terror (war). They may or may not be prisoners of war.
Quite the conundrum eh?
What to do, what to do? Criminal trials / military tribunals.
Its all new. We need to figure it out in a manner that gets the desired results = PEACE.
| 714 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:09:02pm |
Glad to see that Ludwig is keeping the Juche flame burning this evening.
| 715 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:09:29pm |
re: #699 LudwigVanQuixote
That was uncalled for. The only down ding I've given on the thread.
| 716 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:09:47pm |
| 717 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:09:50pm |
re: #703 SanFranciscoZionist
Gus, is there a reason you're running Terrorism's Greatest Hits?
It help focus our minds of the question of the alleged "rights" that these terrorists should enjoy and have protected.
| 718 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:10:14pm |
re: #708 LudwigVanQuixote
That hurts.
Could you please then explain about how we don't extend American values to others when we speechify about how we bring liberty to them when we liberate them during war, or overturn their fanatical regime?
I repeat, don't we justify most of our actions based on the notion of bringing American style liberties to others?
Aren't we building Democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Isn't that what we say?
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
Could you please answer... or are you going to call names some more?
Dude, are you seriously going to say anything to anyone about name-calling?
| 719 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:10:35pm |
re: #689 LudwigVanQuixote
Exactly. That is my whole point! Doing such a thing is against our principles as Americans. There is no declared war to end.
Thank you.
Then the terrorist is detained permanently or until Al Qaeda surrenders unconditionally. Hard-core Islamists can never be released. The problem is how to justify their detention. If we need new laws to do that, then by all means let's pass some. Oh, that's right: The human rights left opposes doing that too.
| 720 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:03pm |
re: #713 Racer X
Cool.
So we are all in agreement now. This Jihad against America and the West, and the War on Terror is a new phenomenon. The combatants against us may or may not be part of state sponsored terror (war). They may or may not be prisoners of war.
Quite the conundrum eh?
What to do, what to do? Criminal trials / military tribunals.
Its all new. We need to figure it out in a manner that gets the desired results = PEACE.
You forgot the part I'm most concerned with; how do we not compromise American intelligence efforts while simultaneously bringing the boot of Justice down on this jerk. Not one person should die because they were exposed by this trial.
| 721 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:06pm |
| 722 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:41pm |
re: #696 SanFranciscoZionist
So, what on earth are they?
Good question. I say they are enemy combatants and they belong in military tribunals not in the US civil courts. I haven't seen a decent argument for the counter opinion.
| 723 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:55pm |
| 724 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:55pm |
re: #713 Racer X
Cool.
So we are all in agreement now. This Jihad against America and the West, and the War on Terror is a new phenomenon. The combatants against us may or may not be part of state sponsored terror (war). They may or may not be prisoners of war.
Quite the conundrum eh?
What to do, what to do? Criminal trials / military tribunals.
Its all new. We need to figure it out in a manner that gets the desired results = PEACE.
So far we are accepting a 1-in-7 recidivism rate among released terror suspects.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 725 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:11:57pm |
re: #716 LudwigVanQuixote
Like the one you just made? Interesting...
Where did I personally attack you?
| 726 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:12:01pm |
re: #672 Mich-again
Oh thats easy, they would have shot him right there. No trial.
The British soldiers from the Boston Massacre got a fair trial. John Adams was their attorney. Six of the eight were acquitted.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 727 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:12:15pm |
re: #717 Bagua
It help focus our minds of the question of the alleged "rights" that these terrorists should enjoy and have protected.
Alleged terrorists. Innocent until proven guilty. Yes of course, I am certain that KSM is guilty as sin, but what about the ones we don't know so much about?
Innocent until proven guilty. You are not automatically guilty just because the government says you are. North Korea thinks like that though, and that really is what you are defending.
| 728 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:12:31pm |
re: #722 Mich-again
Good question. I say they are enemy combatants and they belong in military tribunals not in the US civil courts. I haven't seen a decent argument for the counter opinion.
Magic 8 Ball says: *crickets*
| 729 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:13:10pm |
G'DAFTERNOON HONCOS!
Allow me to throw some futile water on the fires of debate with some college-sanctioned do-gooding.
| 730 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:14:12pm |
re: #693 borgcube
I don't think those numbers extend that far, do they?
They're estimates only, and nobody really thinks they're accurate beyond 10 years, but numbers do exist.
| 731 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:14:29pm |
re: #722 Mich-again
Good question. I say they are enemy combatants and they belong in military tribunals not in the US civil courts. I haven't seen a decent argument for the counter opinion.
A military tribunal is good enough for Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri (U.S.S. Cole), why isn't it good enough for KSM?
| 732 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:14:31pm |
re: #718 cliffster
Dude, are you seriously going to say anything to anyone about name-calling?
Where was there a name in that?
Let's again. You claim that America does not extend it's values to other nations. I claim that is false.
I bring as evidence the justification for pretty much every foreign war we have fought.
So let's ask again...
Could you please then explain about how we don't extend American values to others when we speechify about how we bring liberty to them when we liberate them during war, or overturn their fanatical regime?
I repeat, don't we justify most of our actions based on the notion of bringing American style liberties to others?
Aren't we building Democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Isn't that what we say?
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
If those things are true, how can you claim we don't extend our values to other nations?
| 734 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:14:48pm |
I am curious
Why is this trial in NYC and not DC ?
| 736 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:15:25pm |
re: #727 LudwigVanQuixote
Alleged terrorists. Innocent until proven guilty. Yes of course, I am certain that KSM is guilty as sin, but what about the ones we don't know so much about?
Innocent until proven guilty. You are not automatically guilty just because the government says you are. North Korea thinks like that though, and that really is what you are defending.
A lot of 18-year-old Americans killed in wars throughout our history would beg to differ with you. They would say they were declared guilty and executed on the spot.
| 737 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:15:25pm |
Israel 2002 - Partial
# Israel Israel, January 30: An 81-year-old man was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing in the center of Jerusalem. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.
# Israel Israel, February 16: Two teenagers were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron. A third person subsequently died of his injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, February 18: An Israeli Bedouin policeman was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, February 27: A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at a roadblock on the Jerusalem-Modi'in highway, injuring three policemen.
# Israel Israel, March 2: Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing near a yeshiva in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a barmitzvah celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, March 5: One person was killed and a large number injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, March 7: A suicide bomber blew himself up in the lobby of a hotel in Ariel. 15 people were injured, one seriously. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, March 9: 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded Moment cafe in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
# Israel Israel, March 17: A suicide bomber exploded himself near an Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 25 people were lightly injured.
# Israel Israel, March 20: Four soldiers and three others were killed, and about 30 wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
| 739 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:15:48pm |
re: #734 earth56
I am curious
Why is this trial in NYC and not DC ?
Because Batman lives in NYC (Gotham is NYC at night) and Superman lives in NYC (Metropolis is NYC during the day) and we need some back up.
| 740 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:15:55pm |
re: #729 laZardo
G'DAFTERNOON HONCOS!
Allow me to throw some futile water on the fires of debate with some college-sanctioned do-gooding.
Sorry, the KSM trial has become a lightning rod. The fire here about it is an electrical fire, it can't be dosed with water.
| 741 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:16:05pm |
re: #725 NJDhockeyfan
Where did I personally attack you?
Oh come on... there is quite the pile on going on. Don't play innocent.
| 742 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:16:05pm |
re: #734 earth56
I am curious
Why is this trial in NYC and not DC ?
Or Cuba. That's what I'd like to know.
| 743 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:16:07pm |
re: #727 LudwigVanQuixote
Alleged terrorists. Innocent until proven guilty. Yes of course, I am certain that KSM is guilty as sin, but what about the ones we don't know so much about?
Innocent until proven guilty. You are not automatically guilty just because the government says you are. North Korea thinks like that though, and that really is what you are defending.
But when I gave the example of the Israeli pre-emptive targeted killings you said, "everyone knows their guilty", not only are those terrorists precious "rights" not protected there are often uninvolved bystanders killed or maimed. Yet you were ok with that, not trial, no miranda rights, just justice.
| 744 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:16:46pm |
re: #717 Bagua
It help focus our minds of the question of the alleged "rights" that these terrorists should enjoy and have protected.
Their crimes do not actually inform the law. And I have to say that I am a little offended at the suggestion that people arguing that certain legal rights apply to terror suspects are only doing so because they don't know what the hell these people did. Everyone here knows that.
| 745 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:17:04pm |
re: #721 Bagua
Play nice.
Hey, that was nice nice!
You don't like "suck it up" as a conclusion?
Here: Accept Federally Accepted Case Law, which makes these arguments about prosecuting KSM outside of the US Civil Justice System moot.
See? Way verbose.
| 747 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:17:34pm |
re: #739 EmmmieG
Because Batman lives in NYC (Gotham is NYC at night) and Superman lives in NYC (Metropolis is NYC during the day) and we need some back up.
I thought Spiderman lived in NYC. Are there no superheros in DC other than politicians dressed in drag ?
| 748 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:17:59pm |
re: #734 earth56
I am curious
Why is this trial in NYC and not DC ?
Because the actual act of terror was in NYC. I don't like the idea of a civilian trial, but if we are going to have one, it should be in New York City.
| 751 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:18:22pm |
re: #740 Dark_Falcon
Sorry, the KSM trial has become a lightning rod. The fire here about it is an electrical fire, it can't be dosed with water.
Hence, futile. D: Also, that archive was from last Saturday (14th).
| 753 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:18:42pm |
re: #747 earth56
I thought Spiderman lived in NYC. Are there no superheros in DC other than politicians dressed in drag ?
You don't REALLY want to see a senator in spandex, do you?
That's the worst idea I've heard
in the last year.
(I'm going to keep dropping hints until I get up the nerve to come out and say it.)
| 755 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:18:51pm |
re: #743 Bagua
But when I gave the example of the Israeli pre-emptive targeted killings you said, "everyone knows their guilty", not only are those terrorists precious "rights" not protected there are often uninvolved bystanders killed or maimed. Yet you were ok with that, not trial, no miranda rights, just justice.
Uhh yeah, because they are guilty of publicly declaring themselves leaders of terrorist organizations on international media. What is the difference between that and some dude we picked up in Afghanistan who has never even seen a television?
| 756 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:18:59pm |
re: #734 earth56
I am curious
Why is this trial in NYC and not DC ?
Because that's where most of the deaths were.
| 757 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:19:13pm |
re: #748 Dark_Falcon
Because the actual act of terror was in NYC. I don't like the idea of a civilian trial, but if we are going to have one, it should be in New York City.
I thought on 9/11 it was in DC and NYC ?
| 758 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:19:21pm |
re: #735 Boston Patriot
And thus piss off every Muslim in the whole world. What a brilliant idea!
/dripping
| 759 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:19:23pm |
re: #741 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh come on... there is quite the pile on going on. Don't play innocent.
LVQ - I'm going to tell you something I've learned in the last few years, and this is sincere. No matter how smart you think you are, sometimes when you wonder, "why doesn't everyone else get it??", it's because it's you who doesn't get it.
| 760 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:19:23pm |
re: #736 cliffster
A lot of 18-year-old Americans killed in wars throughout our history would beg to differ with you. They would say they were declared guilty and executed on the spot.
Go over that again?
| 761 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:19:36pm |
| 762 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:20:37pm |
re: #732 LudwigVanQuixote
[...]
Bringing them rule of law and elections and all that?
If those things are true, how can you claim we don't extend our values to other nations?
KSM wasn't apprehended to "extend our values" or bring him "law and elections", he was captured in order to gain intelligence to thwart impending horrors that he had planned.
If he wasn't believed to have had actionable intelligence, which he did, he would have simply been the recipient of a targeted killing, just as the Israelis do and you are ok with.
| 763 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:20:44pm |
re: #739 EmmmieG
Because Batman lives in NYC (Gotham is NYC at night) and Superman lives in NYC (Metropolis is NYC during the day) and we need some back up.
I always thought Metropolis was Kansas City (don't people from Smallville drive there for dinner?)
| 764 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:20:47pm |
Good points being made by both sides.
Hug it out guys, c'mon.
| 765 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:21:25pm |
re: #757 earth56
I thought on 9/11 it was in DC and NYC ?
KSM should have really been tried in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
/ :B
| 766 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:21:31pm |
re: #726 sagehen
However, John Adams used a loophole in British common law: by proving to the judge that they could read by having them read aloud from the Bible, he had their crimes reduced to manslaughter (see Benefit of clergy). The two privates were thus found guilty of manslaughter and punished by branding on their thumbs.
Ha. So he used a Creationist defense by having them read from Deuteronomy in the courtroom.
Not quite the same thing here. This was a case where foot soldiers were tried for shooting into a crowd at a riot/rebellion. Not so useful for reading the tea leaves into how H* would have been treated. Further, the early Americans were not completely sold on the whole revolution idea, so every move the American leaders made had to consider that a good amount of the American population actually supported the "enemy" in this war. I doubt you'd get too many Americans these days to say they actually supported AQ efforts. Some idiots, sure.
| 767 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:22:24pm |
re: #759 cliffster
LVQ - I'm going to tell you something I've learned in the last few years, and this is sincere. No matter how smart you think you are, sometimes when you wonder, "why doesn't everyone else get it??", it's because it's you who doesn't get it.
SO then buddy, please explain..
You claim that we don't apply our values to others...
It sure seems that the president, and well really most of those presidents talk a lot about bringing democracy to other places. THat sure sounds like we are applying our principles to them.
So your writing implies that I may be less smart than I think. OK, well, I really don't understand your view. I mean you yourself have written about bringing things like democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. So how is it that is not bringing our values to them?
| 768 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:22:27pm |
re: #760 SanFranciscoZionist
Go over that again?
As tired an expression as it may seem to some, there is a war. And people fighting in the war can't really complain about having their rights violated.
| 769 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:22:29pm |
re: #753 EmmmieG
You don't REALLY want to see a senator in spandex, do you?
That's the worst idea I've heard
in the last year.
(I'm going to keep dropping hints until I get up the nerve to come out and say it.)
aCTUALLY, Watching C-Span for countless hours and Nancy Pelosi making funny faces I think spandex is a big improvement from the daily ignoramous "I am a senator and I know best" routine bit down in DC.
| 770 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:23:47pm |
re: #743 Bagua
But when I gave the example of the Israeli pre-emptive targeted killings you said, "everyone knows their guilty", not only are those terrorists precious "rights" not protected there are often uninvolved bystanders killed or maimed. Yet you were ok with that, not trial, no miranda rights, just justice.
Israel acts according to Israeli law, against people who've committed crimes against Israel and Israelis; The United States acts according to United States law, against people who've committed crimes against America and Americans.
I see no disconnect.
| 771 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:24:10pm |
re: #763 sagehen
I always thought Metropolis was Kansas City (don't people from Smallville drive there for dinner?)
yOUR right !
Its such a cool place they named it twice !
| 772 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:24:15pm |
re: #741 LudwigVanQuixote
Oh come on... there is quite the pile on going on. Don't play innocent.
I'm debating. I haven't called you a name, just giving my point of view. You're whining is annoying.
| 773 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:24:38pm |
re: #745 austin_blue
Hey, that was nice nice!
You don't like "suck it up" as a conclusion?
Here: Accept Federally Accepted Case Law, which makes these arguments about prosecuting KSM outside of the US Civil Justice System moot.
See? Way verbose.
Yes, better. But you have ignored my prior answers, I refer you to them above to avoid repetition.
| 774 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:25:49pm |
re: #771 earth56
yOUR right !
Its such a cool place they named it twice !
Meanwhile, Shanghai is such an uncool place they made it a verb.
/ ;p
| 775 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:25:52pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude. You're probably a lot smarter than a bunch of us put together in here. But you've also been a real dick lately.
| 776 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:25:58pm |
This puts you at the Wiki links between 1970 and 2009.
| 777 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:26:01pm |
re: #746 Boston Patriot
Sorry for my typos, but I'm sick of this. And the AGW garbage.
What AGW garbage... never mind, let's stay on topic and remain civil.
| 778 |
solomonpanting Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:26:25pm |
re: #757 earth56
I thought on 9/11 it was in DC and NYC ?
So if the trial was to be held in DC I'm sure some would ask "Why isn't it held in NYC?"
It has to be somewhere.
| 779 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:26:33pm |
re: #748 Dark_Falcon
Because the actual act of terror was in NYC. I don't like the idea of a civilian trial, but if we are going to have one, it should be in New York City.
Yes. The '93 WTC trials were held in NY. They resulted in convictions and sentences to SuperMax prisons. Where the perps are rotting.
| 780 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:26:34pm |
re: #768 cliffster
As tired an expression as it may seem to some, there is a war. And people fighting in the war can't really complain about having their rights violated.
So...er...we shouldn't worry about law, or procedures, or anything of that sort, because war is hell?
| 781 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:28:13pm |
re: #779 austin_blue
Yes. The '93 WTC trials were held in NY. They resulted in convictions and sentences to SuperMax prisons. Where the perps are
rottingplotting.
/fixed
| 782 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:28:48pm |
re: #767 LudwigVanQuixote
So your writing implies that I may be less smart than I think. OK, well, I really don't understand your view. I mean you yourself have written about bringing things like democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. So how is it that is not bringing our values to them?
Did I?
| 783 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:28:58pm |
re: #778 solomonpanting
So if the trial was to be held in DC I'm sure some would ask "Why isn't it held in NYC?"
It has to be somewhere.
Fargo, ND would be a good place...nuetral and cold and they need some notoriety since its been about 20 years since that great movie.
| 784 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:29:03pm |
re: #774 laZardo
Meanwhile, Shanghai is such an uncool place they made it a verb.
/ ;p
Let's not even get started on Phuket.
;)
| 785 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:29:45pm |
re: #781 Racer X
/fixed
Okie dokie then! Your fix, since you believe that they remain a clear and present danger?
Summary executions outside of US law?
| 786 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:30:22pm |
DOJ crime stats:
Recidivism
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.[Link: www.ojp.usdoj.gov...]
| 787 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:30:33pm |
re: #755 LudwigVanQuixote
Uhh yeah, because they are guilty of publicly declaring themselves leaders of terrorist organizations on international media. What is the difference between that and some dude we picked up in Afghanistan who has never even seen a television?
Such hypocrisy, the Israeli targeted killings are not restricted to terrorists who "are guilty of publicly declaring themselves leaders of terrorist organizations on international media" most are covert terrorists planning or having carried out terrorists attacks.
And KSM is not "some dude we picked up in Afghanistan who had never seen a television?" we knew exactly who he was and what he had done.
Really, the way you distort arguments and argue with straw men is astounding, here for all to see.
| 788 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:30:51pm |
re: #780 SanFranciscoZionist
So...er...we shouldn't worry about law, or procedures, or anything of that sort, because war is hell?
In the context of war, we don't apply the same rules as the guy picked up for robbing the liquor store. If that's what you mean, then yes.
| 789 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:31:12pm |
re: #779 austin_blue
Yes. The '93 WTC trials were held in NY. They resulted in convictions and sentences to SuperMax prisons. Where the perps are rotting.
I don't want KSM to rot, I want him to die. His execution will send a better message than his imprisonment would send. Giving KSM a life sentence would be seen as a sign that we are too weak to kill when we should. That is not a signal we should send.
| 790 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:31:18pm |
re: #785 austin_blue
Okie dokie then! Your fix, since you believe that they remain a clear and present danger?
Summary executions outside of US law?
You wearing high tops or something? Because you may want to protect your ankles. Jumping to conclusions and all.
| 791 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:31:23pm |
| 793 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:32:03pm |
re: #789 Dark_Falcon
I don't want KSM to rot, I want him to die. His execution will send a better message than his imprisonment would send. Giving KSM a life sentence would be seen as a sign that we are too weak to kill when we should. That is not a signal we should send.
Then we should try him in Texas.
(Not a snarky comment, just the truth.)
| 794 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:32:10pm |
re: #775 borgcube
Dude. You're probably a lot smarter than a bunch of us put together in here. But you've also been a real dick lately.
Look I am really sorry you see me as being a dick.
I am trying my best to say some truths.
I have never come out against tribunals in principle. I have always said that part of American justice and values was giving accused people fair and speedy trials with adequate representation.
I have said controversial things as people are innocent until proven guilty and that that too is an American value along with believing that they are endowed with certain rights.
IN fact I am shocked that anyone could possibly take offence at that espescially since most of the loudest shouters then in other contexts to shout about American liberties and Justice for all quite loudly.
There are quite a few nations that don't believe in due process or rule of law.
We are supposed to be better than them. So I am actually shocked and disappointed at those who just don't get it. Particularly since it is frequently they who waggle the flag the most in their other writings.
| 795 |
Mich-again Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:32:34pm |
re: #779 austin_blue
iirc, the perps were all living in the USA and there was a decent evidence trail connecting them to the crime. I wonder how the same court system will treat evidence gained overseas by the CIA and NSA,
| 796 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:33:01pm |
Terrorist recidivism:
In 1999, India released three Kashmiri militants in exchange for hostages on a hijacked Indian Airlines jet. One of the released, Maulana Masood Azhar, then masterminded the 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament.[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
| 797 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:33:31pm |
re: #786 jaunte
DOJ crime stats:
Any idea what the percentage is og released Gitmo terrorists released and discovered back in the battlefield?
| 798 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:33:34pm |
re: #788 cliffster
In the context of war, we don't apply the same rules as the guy picked up for robbing the liquor store. If that's what you mean, then yes.
No, that is not what I mean, at all, nor have I said anything that would lead to that conclusion.
| 799 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:34:37pm |
re: #797 NJDhockeyfan
Lower than conventional criminals, but the polling sample is a lot smaller:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 800 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:35:08pm |
It's getting late so let me just remind everyone to pick up their s'mores on the way out. I would hate for anyone to miss the smores that I am passing out
for my one-year anniversary.
| 801 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:35:43pm |
re: #787 Bagua
Everything is a straw man argument with you. It's like your favorite word. I'd like to see you define it.
So let me explain some ideas to you.
Israel is not America. Would you believe that! SO bringing it up is irrelevant.
Moreover there is a difference between killing an enemy leader in the course of combat and mistreating them once you have captured them. Would you believe that if the Israelis bring someone in they get speedy hearings with representation?
So it's really different.
| 802 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:36:11pm |
re: #800 EmmmieG
It's getting late so let me just remind everyone to pick up their s'mores on the way out. I would hate for anyone to miss the smores that I am passing out
for my one-year anniversary.
Happy anniversary EmmmieG!
| 803 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:36:24pm |
re: #800 EmmmieG
It's getting late so let me just remind everyone to pick up their s'mores on the way out. I would hate for anyone to miss the smores that I am passing out
for my one-year anniversary.
Don't forget extra marshmallows. :D
| 804 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:36:44pm |
re: #770 sagehen
Israel acts according to Israeli law, against people who've committed crimes against Israel and Israelis; The United States acts according to United States law, against people who've committed crimes against America and Americans.
I see no disconnect.
Nope, they are often against terrorists planing attacks, they use preemptive targeted killings just like the US under the same codes of engagement.
I fully endorse those judicious killings as I do when the US does the same in the Pakistan and elsewhere. My view is consistent, I trust the Israelis to use good judgement and kill the right terrorists and I trust the US to do the same.
Ludwig however approves of one because "everyone knows they're guilty" and disproves of the other because they were just some innocent till proven guilty guys picked up by the evil Americans.
I call major hypocrisy.
| 805 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:36:55pm |
re: #798 SanFranciscoZionist
No, that is not what I mean, at all, nor have I said anything that would lead to that conclusion.
Fair enough. I don't know what you mean then about your question of laws and procedures...
| 806 |
laZardo Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:37:51pm |
re: #804 Bagua
Nope, they are often against terrorists planing attacks, they use preemptive targeted killings just like the US under the same codes of engagement.
I fully endorse those judicious killings as I do when the US does the same in the Pakistan and elsewhere. My view is consistent, I trust the Israelis to use good judgement and kill the right terrorists and I trust the US to do the same.
Ludwig however approves of one because "everyone knows they're guilty" and disproves of the other because they were just some innocent till proven guilty guys picked up by the evil Americans.
I call major hypocrisy.
Any group that trains kids to become furry suicide bombers deserves a cruise missile to their collective face.
/and that's all I got to say about that. :B
//fucking furries.
| 807 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:38:06pm |
re: #797 NJDhockeyfan
Any idea what the percentage is og released Gitmo terrorists released and discovered back in the battlefield?
Mil fact sheet dated 4/7/2009 says out of 530, 27 were confirmed and 47 suspected:
[Link: www.defenselink.mil...]
| 808 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:38:18pm |
re: #789 Dark_Falcon
I don't want KSM to rot, I want him to die. His execution will send a better message than his imprisonment would send. Giving KSM a life sentence would be seen as a sign that we are too weak to kill when we should. That is not a signal we should send.
I don't know. Let me think about that.
I do know this. There are well over 350 convicted terrorists in the US prison system (of all kinds, of course, domestic and foreign) and not one prison has been assailed.
In addition, can you name five? They kind of Black Hole in there, don't they? Tough to be a martyr when you are getting three hots and a cot. You just kind of disappear off the radar. Not real affective in recruiting.
| 809 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:39:23pm |
re: #775 borgcube
Dude. You're probably think you are a lot smarter than a bunch of us put together in here. But you've also been a real dick
latelynow and often in the past.
Fixed.
| 810 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:39:35pm |
re: #790 Racer X
You wearing high tops or something? Because you may want to protect your ankles. Jumping to conclusions and all.
I was desperately looking for an alternative to your comment. It escaped me.
| 811 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:39:40pm |
re: #782 cliffster
Did I?
OK so say you didn't ever write about that personally, for certain the President and a bunch of them and our media goes on and on about bringing democracy lots of places. And we have done that for pretty much every war. So could you please explain your notion that Americans don't believe our principles apply to others? That's really the tenth dodge of it.
Here's the answer...
OF course America believes her values apply to people in other nations.
That's why we criticize China and Russia and NOrth Korea for being less than lawful regimes.
In fact we used to even criticize them for doing things like holding people indefinitely without trial and torturing them!
Too bad we can;t do that as honestly anymore.
| 812 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:39:46pm |
re: #799 jaunte
Lower than conventional criminals, but the polling sample is a lot smaller:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Not surprising.
An unreleased Pentagon report concludes that about one in seven of the 534 prisoners already transferred abroad from the detention center in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, are engaged in terrorism or militant activity, according to administration officials.
So one seventh of the released 'innocent' boy scouts the evil torture-loving military captured and sent to Gitmo went back to killing Americans. I sure hope we find them so we can read them their rights and send them to the US for a fair trial. Lord knows they deserve it.
| 813 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:40:16pm |
re: #807 Gus 802
The number was 1 in 7 but it's been contested by the far left. I assume this is because they share a lot of common values with the Jihadists such as cultural liberalism.
/snark
| 814 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:40:19pm |
re: #808 austin_blue
I don't particularly want to pay for their three hots and a cot.
| 815 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:40:40pm |
re: #800 EmmmieG
It's getting late so let me just remind everyone to pick up their s'mores on the way out. I would hate for anyone to miss the smores that I am passing out
for my one-year anniversary.
Nom, Nom, Nom!
Do I has chocolate on mai face?
Nom Nom Nom!
| 816 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:41:02pm |
re: #785 austin_blue
Okie dokie then! Your fix, since you believe that they remain a clear and present danger?
Summary executions outside of US law?
We do it all the time in Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia.
| 817 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:41:03pm |
re: #808 austin_blue
Tough to be a martyr when you are getting three hots and a cot. You just kind of disappear off the radar. Not real affective in recruiting.
I dunno about that. Radical Muslim recruitment is rampant in the U.S. prison system.
| 818 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:41:36pm |
Anyone who denies that we are at war with Islamofascism has their head so far up their own ass that he/she can neither hear nor think clearly.
We are at war with KSM and his ilk.
In war the enemy does not enjoy the inalienable right to a civilian trial, that is for sure. Never has, never will.
| 819 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:41:58pm |
re: #804 Bagua
Nope, they are often against terrorists planing attacks, they use preemptive targeted killings just like the US under the same codes of engagement.
I fully endorse those judicious killings as I do when the US does the same in the Pakistan and elsewhere. My view is consistent, I trust the Israelis to use good judgement and kill the right terrorists and I trust the US to do the same.
Ludwig however approves of one because "everyone knows they're guilty" and disproves of the other because they were just some innocent till proven guilty guys picked up by the evil Americans.
I call major hypocrisy.
Or read what I wrote and stop the strawman arguments.
| 820 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:42:38pm |
re: #808 austin_blue
I don't know. Let me think about that.
I do know this. There are well over 350 convicted terrorists in the US prison system (of all kinds, of course, domestic and foreign) and not one prison has been assailed.
In addition, can you name five? They kind of Black Hole in there, don't they? Tough to be a martyr when you are getting three hots and a cot. You just kind of disappear off the radar. Not real affective in recruiting.
I'm not saying that the prison will be assailed. My argument is that not killing one of our worst enemies is a sign of weakness and will be taken as such. I maintain that if such an enemy is delivered into your power, then you must kill him. This demonstrates your willingness to do what is needed to survive.
| 822 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:42:53pm |
re: #811 LudwigVanQuixote
Do you think we should have invaded and overthrown the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq for the purpose of bringing democracy to their people?
| 823 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:42:57pm |
re: #809 Bagua
Fixed.
And you were whining about personal attacks there?
Next you'll claim how reasonable you are!
| 824 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:43:22pm |
re: #812 NJDhockeyfan
One of the ones released killed ten Yemenis while trying to kill some Americans:
[Link: reason.com...]
| 825 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:43:32pm |
re: #794 LudwigVanQuixote
This is the bit were you rephrase everything to sound like you only ever made reasonable arguments and didn't insult everyone and say outrageous things.
| 826 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:43:45pm |
re: #794 LudwigVanQuixote
Look, we're all a bit warped and passionate about these topics or we wouldn't be here. And I think we would all admit that we enjoy a good dose of healthy debate (even some occasional flaming here and there). We're all political junkies in here. I wish I didn't have the gene. I wish I could just merrily go my way and though my day without thinking about much of the things going on now. But I can't and neither can any of us in here.
But even if you are 100% right, and you may well be, I don't believe you can truly sit back an re-read some of your posts over the last few days and think they're doing this forum any good, and certainly not personally for you. I think you are an obviously bright guy, but you're not being too smart the way you've handled those with whom you disagree. Not every disagreement is a personal attack on you, but that's how at least this guy sitting out here in LGF land is seeing your posts lately.
With that said, carry on.
| 827 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:01pm |
| 828 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:06pm |
re: #822 cliffster
Do you think we should have invaded and overthrown the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq for the purpose of bringing democracy to their people?
LOL what I think about that is irrelevant...
Do we justify our wars by claiming we are bringing them democracy or not?
| 829 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:10pm |
re: #817 Racer X
I dunno about that. Radical Muslim recruitment is rampant in the U.S. prison system.
I notices a few homegrown terrorists arrested lately were radicalized in prison. We have a huge problem with that.
| 830 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:12pm |
re: #812 NJDhockeyfan
So one seventh of the released 'innocent' boy scouts the evil torture-loving military captured and sent to Gitmo went back to killing Americans. I sure hope we find them so we can read them their rights and send them to the US for a fair trial. Lord knows they deserve it.
If I were an innocent person held for years, harshly interrogated, never got a trial, and then finally let go -- I'd be pissed off enough to do things that I wouldn't have done before being imprisoned.
| 831 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:39pm |
re: #795 Mich-again
iirc, the perps were all living in the USA and there was a decent evidence trail connecting them to the crime. I wonder how the same court system will treat evidence gained overseas by the CIA and NSA,
Well, Cheney said we never tortured anyone, so I am sure the evidence will be legally viable in any court.
| 832 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:44:39pm |
re: #806 laZardo
Any group that trains kids to become furry suicide bombers deserves a cruise missile to their collective face.
/and that's all I got to say about that. :B
//fucking furries.
Agreed fully.
| 834 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:45:29pm |
re: #810 austin_blue
I was desperately looking for an alternative to your comment. It escaped me.
The blind sheik continues to plot terror attacks with his accomplices inside and outside of prison. Few would have shed a tear if he was sentenced to death.
| 835 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:46:07pm |
re: #828 LudwigVanQuixote
LOL what I think about that is irrelevant...
Do we justify our wars by claiming we are bringing them democracy or not?
I asked the question for a reason. Are you taking your position because you believe in this action? Or are you asking rhetorical questions simply to point out American "hypocrisy"?
| 836 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:46:21pm |
re: #830 sagehen
If I were an innocent person held for years, harshly interrogated, never got a trial, and then finally let go -- I'd be pissed off enough to do things that I wouldn't have done before being imprisoned.
No Islamist is innocent. The one's we can't pin a crime on simply haven't gotten around to committing their acts of terror yet.
| 837 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:46:34pm |
re: #833 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur.
Then from you I will think about it.
But please don't make it seem like there has not been an endless pile on. And please don't make it seem like I am not talking about some well established American philosophies.
| 838 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:46:51pm |
re: #816 Bagua
We do it all the time in Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, Somalia.
So it's okay to do it to prisoners in *our* custody in *our* country?
Wow. Just wow.
| 839 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:47:40pm |
re: #830 sagehen
If I were an innocent person held for years, harshly interrogated, never got a trial, and then finally let go -- I'd be pissed off enough to do things that I wouldn't have done before being imprisoned.
We're not talking about normal individuals. I would say anyone of these terrorists that were returned to their herd and went back to being enemy combatants were guilty in the first place. I don't see any cause and effect here. We're also talking as Juante pointed out people that return to slay their own countrymen.
| 840 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:48:07pm |
A pile-on after having spit in everyone's faces?
Who could have foreseen the consequences?
| 841 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:48:07pm |
re: #817 Racer X
I dunno about that. Radical Muslim recruitment is rampant in the U.S. prison system.
Links?
| 842 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:48:23pm |
re: #824 jaunte
One of the ones released killed ten Yemenis while trying to kill some Americans:
[Link: reason.com...]
Here's another one.
Another former Gitmo detainee killed in a shootout
On Oct. 13, a former Guantanamo detainee named Yousef Mohammed al Shihri was killed in a shootout at a checkpoint along the Saudi-Yemeni border. Al Shihri and his accomplices were stopped by Saudi security forces after their suspicious behavior drew attention.
Two of the travelers, including al Shihri, were reportedly dressed as women. Saudi security personnel decided to search the al Qaeda car and its passengers, but al Shihri and the others opened fire. Al Shihri and one other al Qaeda member were killed in the shootout, while a third was arrested. One Saudi security officer was also killed.
Al Shihri’s death comes just weeks after one of his al Qaeda colleagues, Fahd Saleh Suleiman al Jutayli , was similarly killed in a shootout between the Yemeni Army and Houthi rebels in northern Yemen. Shortly thereafter, Al Shihri called his family in Saudi Arabia to tell them of al Jutayli’s death and to ask them to inform al Jutayli’s family.
The Saudi security personnel who searched al Shihri’s car reportedly found a small cache of arms, including suicide explosive belts. According to a spokesman for the Saudi Interior Ministry
| 844 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:49:25pm |
re: #835 cliffster
I asked the question for a reason. Are you taking your position because you believe in this action? Or are you asking rhetorical questions simply to point out American "hypocrisy"?
Actually, like most American, I do belive that most of the rest of the world would be better off living in free societies under the rule of law, and I hate tyrants.
So yes, I do believe we shoulf bring democratic principles to the world, and yes I do believe that those are the best principles for humans to live under.
I also think that they apply to us.
I also don't think they stop applying when they are less convenient.
I also am not pointing out American hypocrisy, far from it. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of many of the posters here.
| 845 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:49:29pm |
re: #842 NJDhockeyfan
Another innocent farmer caught in the crossfire?
| 846 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:49:43pm |
re: #841 austin_blue
Links?
Statement of
Donald Van Duyn
Deputy Assistant Director, Counterterrorism Division
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Before the
House Homeland Security Committee
Subcommittee on Intelligence, Information Sharing, and Terrorism Risk Assessment
September 20, 2006
[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
| 847 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:50:06pm |
re: #834 Racer X
The blind sheik continues to plot terror attacks with his accomplices inside and outside of prison. Few would have shed a tear if he was sentenced to death.
Read up on the blind sheik in that link. Then tell me this guy should not have been wiped off the face of the earth.
| 848 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:50:10pm |
re: #838 austin_blue
So it's okay to do it to prisoners in *our* custody in *our* country?
Wow. Just wow.
No, I was talking about targeted killings of terrorists planning or having engaged in terrorist attacks. I was not talking about terrorists in *our* custody in *our* country. Please do not distort my views.
| 849 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:51:20pm |
re: #837 LudwigVanQuixote
Then from you I will think about it.
But please don't make it seem like there has not been an endless pile on. And please don't make it seem like I am not talking about some well established American philosophies.
There has been a pile on. Whether or not it was deserved is another question. And you are talking about well established American philosophies. Those two points I'll give you, even if I think you're wrong on this.
Do think about it, Ludwig. You're very smart and very well informed, but you are also too combative and its earning you enemies. You believe in effective argumentation, and it is the name of that that I ask you to reexamine your tactics.
| 850 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:51:29pm |
re: #830 sagehen
If I were an innocent person held for years, harshly interrogated, never got a trial, and then finally let go -- I'd be pissed off enough to do things that I wouldn't have done before being imprisoned.
So a bit of harsh treatment justifies or explains terrorist attacks?
| 851 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:51:36pm |
SNIPThe U.S. Prison Environment
FBI and the Bureau of Prisons analysis shows that radicalization and recruitment in U.S. prisons is still an ongoing concern. Prison radicalization primarily occurs through anti-U.S. sermons provided by contract, volunteer, or staff imams, radicalized inmates who gain religious influence, and extremist media. Ideologies that radicalized inmates appear most often to embrace include or are influenced by the Salafi form of Sunni Islam (including revisionist versions commonly known as “prison Islam”) and an extremist view of Shia Islam similar to that of the government of Iran and Lebanese Hizballah.There are two groups of concern involved in prison radicalization and recruitment.
The first group consists of inmates, the majority of whom are minority group members. Although most are converts to Islam, there is a smaller number who were born into the Muslim faith. These radicalized inmates either feel discriminated against in the United States or feel that the United States oppresses minorities and Muslims overseas. The feeling of perceived oppression, combined with their limited knowledge of Islam, especially for the converts, makes this a vulnerable population for extremists looking to radicalize and recruit.
SNIP
[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
| 852 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:52:07pm |
re: #831 austin_blue
Well, Cheney said we never tortured anyone, so I am sure the evidence will be legally viable in any court.
Cheney was correct, we never tortured anyone.
| 853 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:52:24pm |
re: #848 Bagua
No, I was
talking about targeted killingstrying to change the topic in order to create a false gotcha . I was not talking about terrorists in *our* custody in *our* country. Please do not distort my views.
Fixed it for you.
| 854 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:53:01pm |
As part of our continued efforts to identify populations that may be a target for extremist recruitment, the FBI has been involved in a coordinated effort between law enforcement and corrections personnel to combat the recruitment and radicalization of prison inmates. Prisons continue to be fertile ground for extremists who exploit both a prisoner's conversion to Islam while still in prison, as well as their socio-economic status and placement in the community upon their release.
[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
| 855 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:53:19pm |
re: #831 austin_blue
Well, Cheney said we never tortured anyone, so I am sure the evidence will be legally viable in any court.
Interesting...and here LVQ had assured all of us that KSM's trial wasn't all about the Bush administration.
| 857 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:53:33pm |
re: #849 Dark_Falcon
There has been a pile on. Whether or not it was deserved is another question. And you are talking about well established American philosophies. Those two points I'll give you, even if I think you're wrong on this.
Do think about it, Ludwig. You're very smart and very well informed, but you are also too combative and its earning you enemies. You believe in effective argumentation, and it is the name of that that I ask you to reexamine your tactics.
Fair enough, but to be fair, I honestly think I have been rather cool headed this thread.
I think I've pretty strongly stuck to well established principles of American philosophy.
| 858 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:53:59pm |
re: #845 borgcube
Another innocent farmer caught in the crossfire?
Sure. They are everywhere like a bad case of the crabs.
Yes, you could argue, were you so inclined, that Benazir Bhutto might well be alive today if only Washington had not leaned on her to return to Pakistan for the sake of a U.S.-brokered political deal that was perhaps not in her personal best interest.
More to the point, you could argue that Benazir Bhutto might well be alive today if only Abdullah Mehsud had not been let loose from Guantanamo, where he plainly belonged, regardless of what the bleaters and hand-wringers thought about that.
But, as our Washington man James Gordon Meek today reports, Mehsud convinced somebody in charge down Gitmo way that he was naught but some poor innocent swept up in the fog of war and unjustly jugged. Such a big meanie the U.S. government was for persecuting so harmless a fellow. And so he went free, one of about 450 Gitmo detainees disimprisoned in the past few years.
Whereupon, like at least several dozen other releasees whose post-Gitmo careers have been documented, he went straight back to the battlefields, wreaking righteous jihad upon the infidel. In his case, he reiterated himself as a notorious Talibanesque commander in wild and woolly tribal Waziristan, well known to authorities, running a group that specialized in kidnapping foreign aid workers and blowing up Pakistani soldiers.
| 859 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:54:02pm |
re: #844 LudwigVanQuixote
Ok, then, why are our Marines not in Rwanda, spreading democratic principals? And why are prominent Hutus not in our prisons, awaiting fair trials per the Bill of Rights?
| 860 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:55:20pm |
re: #859 cliffster
Ok, then, why are our Marines not in Rwanda, spreading democratic principals? And why are prominent Hutus not in our prisons, awaiting fair trials per the Bill of Rights?
Don't be silly. That would be Imperialism. ///
| 861 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:55:37pm |
re: #858 Negativing
I can't upding that only because it's so depressing. And so freaking preventable.
| 862 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:56:37pm |
re: #859 cliffster
Ok, then, why are our Marines not in Rwanda, spreading democratic principals? And why are prominent Hutus not in our prisons, awaiting fair trials per the Bill of Rights?
Well that is a whole other discussion. I've been good and answered your questions. So be good and answer mine. You claim that America and Americans do not believe that our principles apply to people of other nations.
How do you believe that when we fight so many wars based on that idea - that we are bringing our way of life to them?
Really it's your turn to answer. Please stop dodging.
| 864 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:56:56pm |
re: #845 borgcube
Another innocent farmer caught in the crossfire?
No, but then again no one here would claim they were. Those two were Islamists, and they were killed pursuing their murderous avocation. Kind of fitting that they were attacking the Saudis. The Saudis have been feeding the scorpion for years and now it is stinging them. They should not be surprised, its the scorpion's nature.
| 865 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:57:46pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
In reality, our principles and our legal system are two separate things that influence each other, but they are not exactly the same thing.
| 866 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:58:03pm |
Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan*wrings hands*
"We should have DONE something"!
Um, how about we fight the war on terror?
How about we admit that radical Islam is spreading, and playing nice does not work? A nice fair trial and a prison sentence did exactly squat when applied to the blind sheik. His followers continue to plot and terrorize.
| 867 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:58:07pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
Well that is a whole other discussion. I've been good and answered your questions. So be good and answer mine. You claim that America and Americans do not believe that our principles apply to people of other nations.
How do you believe that when we fight so many wars based on that idea - that we are bringing our way of life to them?
Really it's your turn to answer. Please stop dodging.
I'm not dodging anything. I don't think that's why we fight wars. Our military exists to protect Americans. That reason, and that reason alone.
| 868 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:58:30pm |
re: #837 LudwigVanQuixote
Then from you I will think about it.
But please don't make it seem like there has not been an endless pile on. And please don't make it seem like I am not talking about some well established American philosophies.
You were quite happy when the pile on was you against theMatrix31, or Salamantis, or myself, or anyone else. In fact you revel in such pile ons and escalate with profane insults.
Tonight on the other hand, you are on the receiving end and you whinge like a child, even though every is being civil and arguing with reason.
If you play nice with other posters you get the same treatment, stop playing the victim card.
| 869 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:59:02pm |
re: #840 Sharmuta
A pile-on after having spit in everyone's faces?
Who could have foreseen the consequences?
No only if you are one of the hypocrites I am talking about. since you lump yourself in with them, I suppose you have earned the perception of hypocrisy.
| 870 |
Racer X Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:59:11pm |
| 871 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:59:39pm |
re: #860 Sharmuta
Don't be silly. That would be Imperialism. ///
And as you know that is something we heard before in place like Indymedia: how dare we impose our Western values on other civilizations. Even if it means the harm of innocent lives. Even if it in the end works to defend "liberal" values.
| 872 |
earth56 Sat, Nov 21, 2009 10:59:50pm |
re: #864 Dark_Falcon
No, but then again no one here would claim they were. Those two were Islamists, and they were killed pursuing their murderous avocation. Kind of fitting that they were attacking the Saudis. The Saudis have been feeding the scorpion for years and now it is stinging them. They should not be surprised, its the scorpion's nature.
Reminds me of some movie a few years back where the Israelis have to save the Saudis ass. Do you know the name of it ?
Its facinating how many things in movies or sci-fi eventually has some truth in it somewhere down the road.
| 873 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:00:32pm |
re: #837 LudwigVanQuixote
Then from you I will think about it.
But please don't make it seem like there has not been an endless pile on. And please don't make it seem like I am not talking about some well established American philosophies.
LVQ-
I got into one of these one night. Got hammered from all sides. Some legitimate- I got a little snarky (single malt talking)- some illegitimate hammers for simple disagreement on a single issue that blended into my other positions-(some of the hammers on you tonight are because of your intelligent and considered positions on AGW).
Roll with it. This is still a fundamentally conservative board. Many of the posters here are not intimately familiar with either the scientific method or Constitutional Law. You're a polymath. Cool. But if you treat *everyone* like a moron, the rest will attack just for the sheer glee of piling on.
It gets ugly.
To the rest of the board:
Can we take it down a notch, please?
| 874 |
ryannon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:00:56pm |
| 875 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:01:00pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
And, according to what you were saying, it's not a whole other discussion. It is very much the same discussion. Why are we not spreading democracy to Rwanda?
| 876 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:01:22pm |
re: #870 Racer X
Thanks.
Your Google-Fu is strong.
YW I either use straight forward search terms. I also have one-touch search with my MX Revolution mouse. Just highlight a word or phrase and press the button.
| 877 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:02:23pm |
re: #867 cliffster
I'm not dodging anything. I don't think that's why we fight wars. Our military exists to protect Americans. That reason, and that reason alone.
OK, and yet I am sure if I looked I could find about ten dozen W speeches about us bringing democracy to Iraq. I'm confident we could find speeches from Clinton about stopping tyrannical genocide in the former Yugoslavia. I am certain that Bush one talked a lot about Democracy in Panama. I am certain that Reagan talked an awful lot about it and the cold war and evil empires...
Shall I go on with the history, or is the point clear?
| 878 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:02:43pm |
re: #873 austin_blue
This is still a fundamentally conservative board. Many of the posters here are not intimately familiar with either the scientific method or Constitutional Law.
That is so patronizing on so many levels it makes me want to throw up.
| 879 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:02:49pm |
re: #867 cliffster
I'm not dodging anything. I don't think that's why we fight wars. Our military exists to protect Americans. That reason, and that reason alone.
That's correct, that America also brings benefits to defeated enemies is a part of why America is so superior to almost every other nation on earth and in all of history.
| 880 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:02:57pm |
re: #850 Bagua
So a bit of harsh treatment justifies or explains terrorist attacks?
I'm saying that "returned to the battlefield" may not apply in all cases; for some it may well be "entered the battlefield for the first time."
Many of the people who don't do bad things, it isn't because their morals prevent them, it's fear of getting caught and facing consequences. If they get stuck with the consequences anyway, the one thing that was holding them back doesn't hold them back anymore. And others who were on the fence, being aware that this has happened, aren't held back either.
| 882 |
Buck Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:03:46pm |
re: #413 LudwigVanQuixote
we also pick up a bunch of illiterate farmers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
An al-q camp... During a raid...
Every prison in North America is filled with innocents who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time... Just ask 'em.
| 883 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:04:05pm |
re: #868 Bagua
Ohhh no not really.
I really am not interested in pile ons with you at all.
I think you are totally reprehensible. I honestly despise you.
I would much rather you didn't ever interact with me.
Then there would be nothing to say.
| 884 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:04:06pm |
re: #869 LudwigVanQuixote
No only if you are one of the hypocrites I am talking about. since you lump yourself in with them, I suppose you have earned the perception of hypocrisy.
Sharmuta is not a hypocrite, she is honest, consistent and sincere.
| 885 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:04:41pm |
re: #869 LudwigVanQuixote
No only if you are one of the hypocrites I am talking about. since you lump yourself in with them, I suppose you have earned the perception of hypocrisy.
I'm sorry Ludwig Dan the Illogical Scientist, but that insult of Sharmuta earns you a special response (click the link).
| 886 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:04:59pm |
Troopers! OK, tonight, is the night of nights. We are about to embark on the greatest crusade scientific experiment...
| 887 |
borgcube Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:05:11pm |
re: #883 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh no not really.
I really am not interested in pile ons with you at all.
I think you are totally reprehensible. I honestly despise you.
I would much rather you didn't ever interact with me.
Then there would be nothing to say.
Well..I tried. Nite all.
| 888 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:05:29pm |
re: #862 LudwigVanQuixote
Well that is a whole other discussion. I've been good and answered your questions. So be good and answer mine. You claim that America and Americans do not believe that our principles apply to people of other nations.
How do you believe that when we fight so many wars based on that idea - that we are bringing our way of life to them?
Really it's your turn to answer. Please stop dodging.
Yup, you have your head up your ass all right.
American law does not apply outside the US to non-Americans.
We are at war with Islamofascist AQ and if you want to believe that your enemy who is sworn to your destruction has the inalienable right to a civilian trial then you are a chump.
And by the way, the war with Islamofascist AQ is a defensive war to protect the US homeland... it is not a war to spread US values.
| 889 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:06:25pm |
re: #873 austin_blue
LVQ-
-(some of the hammers on you tonight are because of your intelligent and considered positions on AGW).
Bull, that is a different subject. But yes, Ludwig uses similar techniques is some of those threads as well.
| 890 |
sagehen Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:07:53pm |
re: #875 cliffster
And, according to what you were saying, it's not a whole other discussion. It is very much the same discussion. Why are we not spreading democracy to Rwanda?
Because it doesn't have any oil?
| 891 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:08:12pm |
re: #873 austin_blue
LVQ-
I got into one of these one night. Got hammered from all sides. Some legitimate- I got a little snarky (single malt talking)- some illegitimate hammers for simple disagreement on a single issue that blended into my other positions-(some of the hammers on you tonight are because of your intelligent and considered positions on AGW).
Roll with it. This is still a fundamentally conservative board. Many of the posters here are not intimately familiar with either the scientific method or Constitutional Law. You're a polymath. Cool. But if you treat *everyone* like a moron, the rest will attack just for the sheer glee of piling on.
It gets ugly.
To the rest of the board:
Can we take it down a notch, please?
Look I am not treating everyone like a moron. I really am not. What I am doing is standing for an unpopular view.
The unpopular view is that American values matter, and Americans discounting them is hypocrisy.
While I agree there are some really stupid posters here, most of them are smart enough to know better than to argue against core American principles. The ones who do are hypocrites.
It's really that simple.
| 892 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:08:21pm |
re: #878 cliffster
That is so patronizing on so many levels it makes me want to throw up.
Many, not you.
| 893 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:09:18pm |
Moral relativism is a "scientific" idea. It's not really a science but is sometimes confused as such because it falls under the social "sciences" which is really a tenuous science at best. Sorry but that just doesn't work in real life and is an extremely poor survival mechanism.
| 894 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:10:09pm |
most of them are smart enough to know better than to argue against core American principles
Surprisingly enough- NO ONE has done that!
| 895 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:10:34pm |
re: #882 Buck
An al-q camp... During a raid...
Every prison in North America is filled with innocents who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time... Just ask 'em.
And you know what, some of them actually were innocent. Can you believe that?
And not all the people we picked up were in an AQ camp. Would you believe that when soldiers are busy fighting and dodging bullets, they don't always have the time for the most thorough investigations?
| 896 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:11:00pm |
| 897 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:11:04pm |
re: #883 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh no not really.
I really am not interested in pile ons with you at all.
I think you are totally reprehensible. I honestly despise you.
I would much rather you didn't ever interact with me.
Then there would be nothing to say.
That you are full of hatred has been well demonstrated. That you insist on hijacking threads and being the dominant poster while whining that you shouldn't be questioned or debated with is asking for special treatment.
The threads have been very civil and pleasant in your absence in between your meltdowns. I would rather you either debate honestly and without hatred or simply do not visit. Either way you are fair game when you join the thread.
| 898 |
jaunte Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:11:51pm |
re: #891 LudwigVanQuixote
While I agree there are some really stupid posters here, most of them are smart enough to know better than to argue against core American principles.
This mis-characterizes the argument. It's quite possible to be in favor of American principles and not in favor of applying American criminal law to non-state combatants.
| 899 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:11:55pm |
re: #885 Dark_Falcon
I'm sorry
LudwigDan the Illogical Scientist, but that insult of Sharmuta earns you a special response (click the link).
Dude that is not an insult on Sharm it was a conditional statement. If she is opposed to American values, she is a hypocrite.
I never lumped her in that group. She seems to lumping herself into it.
| 900 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:14:26pm |
re: #899 LudwigVanQuixote
Dude that is not an insult on Sharm it was a conditional statement. If she is opposed to American values, she is a hypocrite.
I never lumped her in that group. She seems to lumping herself into it.
How do you figure she is opposed to American values?
| 901 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:14:35pm |
re: #894 Sharmuta
Surprisingly enough- NO ONE has done that!
Really? You were arguing that all men are created equal does not matter on the other thread... care to explain how that is not an American value? Care to explain how that value does not apply?
In fact you dinged the Declaration of Independence twice this thread Sharm. I expect that from Bagua but not you. Why did you do that?
| 902 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:15:01pm |
re: #891 LudwigVanQuixote
Look I am not treating everyone like a moron. I really am not. What I am doing is standing for an unpopular view.
The unpopular view is that American values matter, and Americans discounting them is hypocrisy.
While I agree there are some really stupid posters here, most of them are smart enough to know better than to argue against core American principles. The ones who do are hypocrites.It's really that simple.
Perhaps too simple. You have in fact called almost everyone who has disagreed with you a moron, repeatedly and on dozens of past threads.
| 903 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:15:59pm |
re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote
And you know what, some of them actually were innocent. Can you believe that?
And not all the people we picked up were in an AQ camp. Would you believe that when soldiers are busy fighting and dodging bullets, they don't always have the time for the most thorough investigations?
Well, they're doing their best. And you know what? They sometimes make mistakes, they are only human. Yes, our military men are human. Think of the alternative. You want perfectionist utopia? Not going to happen. And even though we made some mistakes along the way we've been safer in the long run.
They're doing their best and that's all we have. So my hats off to them. The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, CIA, FBI, Bush, Cheney, et al. These are the men that fight wars. It's not philosophers. It's not scientists.
| 904 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:17:00pm |
re: #897 Bagua
That you are full of hatred has been well demonstrated. That you insist on hijacking threads and being the dominant poster while whining that you shouldn't be questioned or debated with is asking for special treatment.
The threads have been very civil and pleasant in your absence in between your meltdowns. I would rather you either debate honestly and without hatred or simply do not visit. Either way you are fair game when you join the thread.
NO you always show up and start screaming at me. Or Fenway.
Or Sharm lately too, but there is another story there.
NO honestly there BAgs, its more about you than you think. You will really try any tactic. So go ahead call for sympathy, you've hit a thread here that resonates with a certain crowd. GO for it. But please don't deny that you have had a hard on for me for some time.
Right the fact is I do despise you and for very reason. So you know, you could live up to your endless promises of not talking to me... You could try it.
| 905 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:17:12pm |
re: #901 LudwigVanQuixote
Really? You were arguing that all men are created equal does not matter on the other thread... care to explain how that is not an American value? Care to explain how that value does not apply?
In fact you dinged the Declaration of Independence twice this thread Sharm. I expect that from Bagua but not you. Why did you do that?
That changes everything I've ever thought about her. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
/dripping
(cute puppies. I just wanted to say that in case you were going to downding me. You aren't against cute puppies...ARE YOU?)
| 906 |
Buck Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:17:16pm |
re: #554 austin_blue
Yes. Same as Oklahoma City or the first WTC attack. Terrorist attacks in the US are terrorist attacks and should be prosecuted in the US Courts. The precedent has been set.
How is this different except that it is more visceral? Does that affect the law? Because you are more pissed off on a gut level?
Take a deep breath.
Timothy McVeigh was Mirandized, given counsel, and a speedy trial. As were those arrested for the first WTC attack.
A good defense lawyer can get you off if any of those three are missing.
That is how this is different.
| 907 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:17:21pm |
re: #901 LudwigVanQuixote
Such a laughable distortion, I can only pity you.
Anyone have any popcorn left?
| 908 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:18:00pm |
re: #901 LudwigVanQuixote
It seems to me like you simply can't understand that someone could understand your logic, and still disagree. I think everyone understands what you're saying, they just don't agree with it.
| 909 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:18:50pm |
re: #902 Bagua
Perhaps too simple. You have in fact called almost everyone who has disagreed with you a moron, repeatedly and on dozens of past threads.
But Bagua you are not only a moron, but someone who routinely lies and distorts. What am I supposed to call to you?
| 910 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:19:50pm |
re: #895 LudwigVanQuixote
And you know what, some of them actually were innocent. Can you believe that?
And not all the people we picked up were in an AQ camp. Would you believe that when soldiers are busy fighting and dodging bullets, they don't always have the time for the most thorough investigations?
Hmmm...yet you seem to be advocating that the same soldiers dodging bullets and truck bombs must go out of their way to let a detainee know their rights once they've been captured after a lengthy, protracted shootout.
| 911 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:19:55pm |
Another poor innocent boy scout who was released from the torture machine at Gitmo.
American Muslim Teenager Killed in Bombing by Ex-Gitmo Detainee
| 912 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:20:29pm |
re: #903 Gus 802
Well, they're doing their best. And you know what? They sometimes make mistakes, they are only human. Yes, our military men are human. Think of the alternative. You want perfectionist utopia? Not going to happen. And even though we made some mistakes along the way we've been safer in the long run.
They're doing their best and that's all we have. So my hats off to them. The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, CIA, FBI, Bush, Cheney, et al. These are the men that fight wars. It's not philosophers. It's not scientists.
And that is totally fair and totally correct. That's why we have the notion of innocent until proven guilty coupled with the notion of fair hearings. I'm not saying don't punish the bad guys. I'm saying make sure the guys you have are actually the bad guys and live up to our principles.
| 913 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:20:46pm |
re: #903 Gus 802
Well, they're doing their best. And you know what? They sometimes make mistakes, they are only human. Yes, our military men are human. Think of the alternative. You want perfectionist utopia? Not going to happen. And even though we made some mistakes along the way we've been safer in the long run.
They're doing their best and that's all we have. So my hats off to them. The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, CIA, FBI, Bush, Cheney, et al. These are the men that fight wars. It's not philosophers. It's not scientists.
Gus, to be fair Ludwig is not going after soldiers in the field. He's making a policy argument, not a condemnation of the American Military (except to the limited extent he feels they let torture go on).
| 914 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:21:04pm |
re: #905 Bloodnok
C'mon be fair. You know what is going on.
| 915 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:21:47pm |
re: #891 LudwigVanQuixote
Look I am not treating everyone like a moron. I really am not. What I am doing is standing for an unpopular view.
The unpopular view is that American values matter, and Americans discounting them is hypocrisy.
While I agree there are some really stupid posters here, most of them are smart enough to know better than to argue against core American principles. The ones who do are hypocrites.
It's really that simple.
I agree with you. But the *tone* has been somewhat extreme.
The 9/11 attacks were crimes and should be treated as such. Crimes writ large, no doubt, but terrorist attacks equivalent, within the law, to the Oklahoma City and the '93 WTC attacks. Those attacks were efficiently handled within the Civil Courts. No reason these trials should not be equally fair, with similar results.
KSM is, given the fact that he offered to plead guilty to a military tribunal, guilty as sin. We should not fear a civil trial.
| 916 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:22:46pm |
And another.
| 917 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:22:48pm |
re: #904 LudwigVanQuixote
NO you always show up and start screaming at me. Or Fenway.
Or Sharm lately too, but there is another story there.
NO honestly there BAgs, its more about you than you think. You will really try any tactic. So go ahead call for sympathy, you've hit a thread here that resonates with a certain crowd. GO for it. But please don't deny that you have had a hard on for me for some time.
Right the fact is I do despise you and for very reason. So you know, you could live up to your endless promises of not talking to me... You could try it.
Wrong on all points, I am a regular poster here and have as much cause as anyone to comment. Now you are again abusing my nic and expressing your hatred, yet you wish to left to post without response?
Denied. I hold you to the same standards I hold myself. For my part, I do not hate you, actually I like you most of the time, but I find your behaviour outrageous at other times and I hold you accountable as I would anyone.
| 918 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:23:03pm |
re: #911 NJDhockeyfan
Another poor innocent boy scout who was released from the torture machine at Gitmo.
American Muslim Teenager Killed in Bombing by Ex-Gitmo Detainee
More reasons not to let enemy combatants out in the middle of a war.
| 919 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:23:21pm |
re: #914 LudwigVanQuixote
This has nothing to do with you being an asshole off of the blog, this has to do with you being an asshole on the blog.
| 920 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:24:34pm |
re: #907 Sharmuta
Such a laughable distortion, I can only pity you.
Anyone have any popcorn left?
OK then undistort it and I will apologize.
So, do you believe that all men are created equal?
Do you believe that they are endowed with inalienable rights?
DO you believe that includes the rule of law and that includes the notion of innocent until proven guilty and the requirement of a fair speedy and open hearing for the accused?
Do you believe those are American values?
If the answer is yes to all four I will publicly apologize profusely.
If the answer is no to even one, you are a hypocrite.
| 921 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:24:40pm |
re: #914 LudwigVanQuixote
C'mon be fair. You know what is going on.
I do. She doesn't agree with you on this topic and you're trying to blame it on something that doesn't belong on the blog.
Deal
| 922 |
NJDhockeyfan Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:25:12pm |
| 923 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:25:17pm |
re: #910 Fenway_Nation
Hmmm...yet you seem to be advocating that the same soldiers dodging bullets and truck bombs must go out of their way to let a detainee know their rights once they've been captured after a lengthy, protracted shootout.
What is your hard on for Miranda rights? I haven't mentioned them once. You keep going on and on about it.
| 924 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:26:00pm |
re: #904 LudwigVanQuixote
NO you always show up and start screaming at me. Or Fenway.
Or Sharm lately too, but there is another story there.
.
Waaah I'm so mean! Poor little Manbearpig Von Quixote jumps in here, calls me and other posters morons, hyppocrates and wannabe fascists and questions my military service for the high crime of disagreeing with him and his precious little John Stewart clip...
What's your favorite martyr cookie? The thin mints or snickerdoodles?
| 925 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:26:19pm |
re: #915 austin_blue
I agree with you. But the *tone* has been somewhat extreme.
The 9/11 attacks were crimes and should be treated as such. Crimes writ large, no doubt, but terrorist attacks equivalent, within the law, to the Oklahoma City and the '93 WTC attacks. Those attacks were efficiently handled within the Civil Courts. No reason these trials should not be equally fair, with similar results.
KSM is, given the fact that he offered to plead guilty to a military tribunal, guilty as sin. We should not fear a civil trial.
And I agree with everything you have said there. However, this is about a lot more than KSM.
| 926 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:27:23pm |
re: #919 Sharmuta
This has nothing to do with you being an asshole off of the blog, this has to do with you being an asshole on the blog.
Sharm I was an asshole for not wanting to join in one of your witch hunts? OK. Fine.
| 927 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:27:51pm |
re: #909 LudwigVanQuixote
But Bagua you are not only a moron, but someone who routinely lies and distorts. What am I supposed to call to you?
Again, more crude and baseless hatred, utterly unjustified and I have directed nothing similar to you. Yet you insist you have a right to speak to me in that manner on this forum and are indignant that I have the never to speak back to you.
Amazing.
| 928 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:28:05pm |
re: #919 Sharmuta
This has nothing to do with you being an asshole off of the blog, this has to do with you being an asshole on the blog.
Sharm- Please, LVQ has beaten like a dog tonight. Have mercy.
| 929 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:28:28pm |
re: #920 LudwigVanQuixote
Where I have I ever disagreed with any of those principles? You accused me of saying things I didn't say, and this was cato's fight so I don't even know why you're bringing this up. It does reek, BTW. Run back to your HQ and get better talking points.
| 930 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:28:33pm |
re: #927 Bagua
Again, more crude and baseless hatred, utterly unjustified and I have directed nothing similar to you. Yet you insist you have a right to speak to me in that manner on this forum and are indignant that I have the never to speak back to you.
Amazing.
Oh stop it, you came out swinging and you know it... don't be such a wuss.
| 932 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:29:34pm |
re: #926 LudwigVanQuixote
Sharm I was an asshole for not wanting to join in one of your witch hunts? OK. Fine.
Projection.
| 933 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:29:46pm |
| 934 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:30:08pm |
re: #929 Sharmuta
Where I have I ever disagreed with any of those principles? You accused me of saying things I didn't say, and this was cato's fight so I don't even know why you're bringing this up. It does reek, BTW. Run back to your HQ and get better talking points.
Well if you don't disagree with any of those, you are not a hypocrite and you agree that these men should have fair and open hearings, and then we don't have any problems.
| 936 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:30:17pm |
re: #914 LudwigVanQuixote
C'mon be fair. You know what is going on.
Of course he does, it is you who are having trouble understanding the situation because you can never accept responsibility for your own behaviour, someone else is always to blame.
| 937 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:31:18pm |
re: #926 LudwigVanQuixote
Sharm I was an asshole for not wanting to join in one of your witch hunts? OK. Fine.
Witch Hunt? I don't understand how you get to calling Sharmuta witch hunter. She's kept a level head this entire time. At no point has she succumbed to the kind of hate and fear that drove the witch hunts.
| 938 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:31:21pm |
re: #932 Sharmuta
Projection.
NO truth. You started snarking at me after I rejected some of your more paranoid delusional fantasies about other people here and you have kept it up for days. I am tired of it Sharm.
| 939 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:31:46pm |
re: #912 LudwigVanQuixote
And that is totally fair and totally correct. That's why we have the notion of innocent until proven guilty coupled with the notion of fair hearings. I'm not saying don't punish the bad guys. I'm saying make sure the guys you have are actually the bad guys and live up to our principles.
Boundaries are often crossed. That is a fact of life as well as war. With regards to most of the detained enemy combatants they were detained humanely for the most part. You have to adjust for the fog of war which is not only predictable but acceptable. Acceptable given the slaughter perpetrated by these animals.
You want to know something? Part of my point about posting how 200 Americans jumped to their death was that KSM was waterboarded 183 time. He deserves at least another 17 waterboardings before he goes to trial.
| 940 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:31:53pm |
re: #936 Bagua
Of course he does, it is you who are having trouble understanding the situation because you can never accept responsibility for your own behaviour, someone else is always to blame.
Once again clueless... baggyy
| 941 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:32:58pm |
re: #935 NJDhockeyfan
Fare thee well, dedicated fanatic of the Newark, NJ-based National Hockey League fanatic persuasion.
| 942 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:33:12pm |
re: #937 Dark_Falcon
Witch Hunt? I don't understand how you get to calling Sharmuta witch hunter. She's kept a level head this entire time. At no point has she succumbed to the kind of hate and fear that drove the witch hunts.
It because of some off post conversations DF. There is something else going on here. I promise it is true.
| 943 |
austin_blue Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:33:34pm |
re: #932 Sharmuta
Projection.
Aaaargh. This is spinning out of control. Lizards who have been fine contributors to this board are eating their young. That is truly sad.
I will say good night and leave the stage. Bless you all.
| 944 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:34:40pm |
re: #942 LudwigVanQuixote
It because of some off post conversations DF. There is something else going on here. I promise it is true.
Then it should remain off-post. People don't care about this.
| 945 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:35:44pm |
re: #933 austin_blue
Outstanding! Law enforcement works!
Only in defense. To truly ensure our security, we must use our military to take the offensive and attack the terrorists strongholds. Without such actions, its only a matter of time till another 9/11 happens.
| 946 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:37:03pm |
re: #944 Bloodnok
Then it should remain off-post. People don't care about this.
Then she shouldn't have started getting endlessly snarky at me for the past week, ever since I declined to join in her paranoia and hate fest. I told her I wanted no part of it. She assumed it meant I was out to get her.
| 947 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:37:23pm |
re: #926 LudwigVanQuixote
Sharm I was an asshole for not wanting to join in one of your witch hunts? OK. Fine.
Nonsense, always blaming others for your bad behaviour and imagining conspiracies is paranoid thinking.
And her nic is Sharmuta, not Sharm, she doesn't slight your chosen nic, respect hers.
For the record, Sharmuta does not engage in "witch hunts" or any offensive behaviour.
| 948 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:38:32pm |
re: #933 austin_blue
Outstanding! Law enforcement works!
And I'm sure they'll be made aware of their rights, given free legal counsel and entitled to an open and speedy judicial proceeding.
| 949 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:38:33pm |
| 950 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:39:06pm |
re: #946 LudwigVanQuixote
Then she shouldn't have started getting endlessly snarky at me for the past week, ever since I declined to join in her paranoia and hate fest. I told her I wanted no part of it. She assumed it meant I was out to get her.
She disagreed with you (and explained her reasons quite well). That's what you fail to understand. If snark in the course of debate offends you then you might think twice about employing it yourself.
| 951 |
Sharmuta Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:39:16pm |
re: #942 LudwigVanQuixote
This has nothing to with your behavior towards me off the blog. This concerns your on blog behavior and nothing else. I'm not going to allow this distortion you and your little friends are employing so as to paint any rightful criticisms as personal. It's a lie and distortion. I have nothing more to say to you.
| 952 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:40:11pm |
re: #938 LudwigVanQuixote
NO truth. You started snarking at me after I rejected some of your more paranoid delusional fantasies about other people here and you have kept it up for days. I am tired of it Sharm.
You seem to have a lot of persecution issues with a lot of people here.
Maybe you should stop beating a dead horse.
| 953 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:41:24pm |
re: #938 LudwigVanQuixote
NO truth. You started snarking at me after I rejected some of your more paranoid delusional fantasies about other people here and you have kept it up for days. I am tired of it Sharm.
Please retract that outrageous slander, I don't mind being the target of your hatred if you must, but to attack Sharmuta in this vile and hurtful manner is beyond tolerable behavior and entirely unjustified.
| 954 |
cliffster Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:41:25pm |
Time to call it a night. It's a night! Night, all.
| 955 |
Bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:42:26pm |
re: #953 Bagua
Please retract that outrageous slander, I don't mind being the target of your hatred if you must, but to attack Sharmuta in this vile and hurtful manner is beyond tolerable behavior and entirely unjustified.
Quoted for truth.
| 956 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:42:41pm |
re: #940 LudwigVanQuixote
Once again clueless... baggyy
Again, please do not distort my nic in this name calling manner.
| 958 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:42:52pm |
re: #947 Bagua
Nonsense, always blaming others for your bad behaviour and imagining conspiracies is paranoid thinking.
And her nic is Sharmuta, not Sharm, she doesn't slight your chosen nic, respect hers.
For the record, Sharmuta does not engage in "witch hunts" or any offensive behaviour.
You have no clue at all. That's fine.. But you really have no idea.
Now I realize that you will try to jump on anything I say reflexively even with no clue.
Duder, which part of I despise you did you miss? Your that annoying little suck up kid who tries to be a bully when his bigger friends are around. Either that or you call names, or whine to the teacher.
I mean Ludwig van Beck... C'mon, you are the one who argues the things Beck would Bagsy.
And no I don't have baseless hatred. You aren't worth openly hating. This is just a blog. But you are habitually, whiny and dishonest.
You are also not in my estimation very bright.
And that is ok the world needs dishonest and foolish beta male types like you.
| 959 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:43:45pm |
re: #954 cliffster
Um...fare the well...ster of the steep vertical precipice persuasion!
| 961 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:45:35pm |
re: #954 cliffster
Time to call it a night. It's a night! Night, all.
Upding for a joke that was already old when the Dead Sea was sick.
| 962 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:45:48pm |
re: #946 LudwigVanQuixote
Then she shouldn't have started getting endlessly snarky at me for the past week, ever since I declined to join in her paranoia and hate fest. I told her I wanted no part of it. She assumed it meant I was out to get her.
Outrageous and slanderous, you are indeed projecting.
| 963 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:46:00pm |
re: #960 Sharmuta
Good night, Sharmuta...may the brightly burning flame of the Juche ideal keep you warm during your slumber!
//
| 964 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:46:07pm |
re: #951 Sharmuta
This has nothing to with your behavior towards me off the blog. This concerns your on blog behavior and nothing else. I'm not going to allow this distortion you and your little friends are employing so as to paint any rightful criticisms as personal. It's a lie and distortion. I have nothing more to say to you.
My behaviour towards you off blog was to politely try to dissuade you from hating someone Sharm, don't try to make it sound as if we had some giant spat, because we didn't. You are pissed because you were convinced that person was out to get you and I said I was pretty sure they weren't
However, after that discussion, you decided I was your enemy. And I explained I was not. and you went and wrote about you know who your friends are and all sorts of highschool esque drama culminating in a week of snarking.
And we know it is true there. I was never you foe, but you've been sniping at me for not hating who you wanted me to hate.
| 965 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:47:14pm |
With this thread hopefully winding down, I'd like to advance a proposal:
Until, there is a notable development in the whole tribunals vs. civ. trials matter, lets not bring it up again. It seems to lead inevitably to a train wreck and those get old real fast.
| 966 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:47:22pm |
re: #956 Bagua
Again, please do not distort my nic in this name calling manner.
What like calling me Ludwig van Beck?
Giggle. You've lost the right to that request. So ummm... stay out of what does not concern you there Douchebagua.
| 967 |
Bagua Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:49:58pm |
re: #966 LudwigVanQuixote
What like calling me Ludwig van Beck?
Giggle. You've lost the right to that request. So ummm... stay out of what does not concern you there Douchebagua.
That was on a different thread, and pales compared to the profanity you just used and used repeatedly on that other thread.
There is always a point were you resort to profanity Ludwig.
| 968 |
bloodnok Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:51:19pm |
re: #964 LudwigVanQuixote
Posts like this are what e-mail was designed for. Why are you wasting Charles's bandwidth with personal shit?
That shows a definite lack of class and an attempt (repeated attempts, actually) to smear someone else to a public that doesn't care in a conversation that could have should have been had off blog.
| 969 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:51:56pm |
re: #967 Bagua
That was on a different thread, and pales compared to the profanity you just used and used repeatedly on that other thread.
There is always a point were you resort to profanity Ludwig.
Yes after taking an evening of your crap. So do stop it douchebagua. I am hoping you will snot off and promise not to talk to me again.
| 970 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:53:07pm |
re: #968 bloodnok
Posts like this are what e-mail was designed for. Why are you wasting Charles's bandwidth with personal shit?
That shows a definite lack of class and an attempt (repeated attempts, actually) to smear someone else to a public that doesn't care in a conversation that
could haveshould have been had off blog.
Bloodnock I am not smearing anyone. I am tired of almost two weeks not of her sniping at me and we both know why. So how about you stop too.
| 971 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:53:08pm |
re: #966 LudwigVanQuixote
What like calling me Ludwig van Beck?
Giggle. You've lost the right to that request. So ummm... stay out of what does not concern you there Douchebagua.
For someone that wants to appear as a pacifist you sure seam intent on attaining victory regardless. You won't give up until you slaughter everyone philosophically in your own mind will you?
| 972 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:53:58pm |
re: #971 Gus 802
For someone that wants to appear as a pacifist you sure seam intent on attaining victory regardless. You won't give up until you slaughter everyone philosophically in your own mind will you?
Gus I am not angry at you and I am certainly not a pacifist. I don't know where you got that from.
| 973 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:54:10pm |
re: #965 Dark_Falcon
Not really...the mask has been slipping since this topic first came up, and I'd rather the lizards who hold me in the utmost disdain and contempt be open about it rather than tiptoe around with this veneer of faux civility and nettiquitte.
| 974 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:54:42pm |
| 975 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:54:53pm |
re: #970 LudwigVanQuixote
PIMF
Bloodnock I am not smearing anyone. I am tired of almost two weeks now of her sniping at me and we both know why. So how about you stop too.
| 976 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:55:16pm |
| 977 |
Gus Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:56:08pm |
re: #972 LudwigVanQuixote
Gus I am not angry at you and I am certainly not a pacifist. I don't know where you got that from.
I got that from you continual attempts to press your point. Why do you feel the need to combat everyone? Why do you feel the need to find closure in this? You've made your points 1000s of times already yet you continue to feel the need to press on.
| 978 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:57:29pm |
re: #977 Gus 802
I got that from you continual attempts to press your point. Why do you feel the need to combat everyone? Why do you feel the need to find closure in this? You've made your points 1000s of times already yet you continue to feel the need to press on.
Actually you are very right about that. I don't. Or rather I shouldn't.
You make a very good point.
See you all. Good night.
| 979 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Nov 21, 2009 11:59:56pm |
And with Ludwig signing off, so will I. This thread is over and it time for me to sleep. TTYT, all.
| 980 |
Bagua Sun, Nov 22, 2009 12:01:04am |
re: #974 Dark_Falcon
re: #969 LudwigVanQuixote
That is the limit! KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF! This has turned into nothing more than a flame war and those are beneath both of you. Act like the adults I know you are. You can hate each other, but don't just go spouting insults.
I don't hate Ludwig and I have been countering his attacks with reason. He has been spouting insults at at least a half dozen people tonight. I find this equivalence you are suggesting unfair.
| 981 |
Gus Sun, Nov 22, 2009 12:01:22am |
re: #979 Dark_Falcon
And with Ludwig signing off, so will I. This thread is over and it time for me to sleep. TTYT, all.
Yeah, sigh moment.
| 983 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sun, Nov 22, 2009 12:07:35am |
re: #980 Bagua
I don't hate Ludwig and I have been countering his attacks with reason. He has been spouting insults at at least a half dozen people tonight. I find this equivalence you are suggesting unfair.
What your idea of reason is shouting that terrorists have no rights and that American principles don't apply. Really reasoned.
And you came out swinging.
But you are right there is no comparison.
The difference is I know I got pissed and called you a douchebag.
I'm not going to whine and pretend I didn't come out swinging (which c'mon you know you did), or making whatever crap up. And I am certainly not going to lie that I somehow like you (you really somehow like me... I'm touched... I actually don't like you at all.) Really you called ma a False Jew and A false scientist and you like me?
Let's be honest, it's weak school yard behavior. It's the little kid who picks a fight get's hit back and whines to mommy or the teacher or whatever with you Bagsy...
In a little child you hope they will grow out of it. In an adult, well, It's douchey. That's why I call you Douchebagua. It just fits so well.
| 984 |
Bagua Sun, Nov 22, 2009 12:14:20am |
re: #983 LudwigVanQuixote
I retracted the "false" comment on that thread and asked that it be deleted. It was overly judgemental and I do not believe that. Anyone reading that thread can see how I was first provoked but regardless, I still retract it.
Alternatively, you just chimed back in will several profane insults far worse. Not my style and I won't join in.
And yes, I don't harbour any hatred for you, rather I am disappointed to see you act this way and lash out at so many good posters. I believe you are better than that, capable of much more, as I've observed on most threads, and I don't understand this behaviour at all.
| 985 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:34:24am |
re: #947 Bagua
For the record, Sharmuta does not engage in "witch hunts" or any offensive behaviour.
Yes, she does. You don't know what's being referred to.
| 986 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:37:08am |
re: #964 LudwigVanQuixote
My behaviour towards you off blog was to politely try to dissuade you from hating someone Sharm, don't try to make it sound as if we had some giant spat, because we didn't. You are pissed because you were convinced that person was out to get you and I said I was pretty sure they weren't
However, after that discussion, you decided I was your enemy. And I explained I was not. and you went and wrote about you know who your friends are and all sorts of highschool esque drama culminating in a week of snarking.
And we know it is true there. I was never you foe, but you've been sniping at me for not hating who you wanted me to hate.
Thank you.
| 987 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:43:02am |
re: #968 bloodnok
Posts like this are what e-mail was designed for. Why are you wasting Charles's bandwidth with personal shit?
That shows a definite lack of class and an attempt (repeated attempts, actually) to smear someone else to a public that doesn't care in a conversation that
could haveshould have been had off blog.
You and Sharmuta have been wasting bandwidth here with personal shit for weeks now, and trying to drag as many people as possible into it, people who don't really know what this is about. Disgusting.
Iceweasel has requested Sharmuta to email her to resolve whatever personal issues she has, repeatedly, and she has refused. And you supported Sharmuta in that, so don't even bother with the hypocrisy of your little "please discuss personal issues elsewhere" act.
| 988 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:53:13am |
re: #964 LudwigVanQuixote
My behaviour towards you off blog was to politely try to dissuade you from hating someone Sharm, don't try to make it sound as if we had some giant spat, because we didn't. You are pissed because you were convinced that person was out to get you and I said I was pretty sure they weren't
However, after that discussion, you decided I was your enemy. And I explained I was not. and you went and wrote about you know who your friends are and all sorts of highschool esque drama culminating in a week of snarking.
And we know it is true there. I was never you foe, but you've been sniping at me for not hating who you wanted me to hate.
Thanks Ludwig. Your experience is not too dissimilar to mine. One day you are Sharmuta's friend and she is updinging you and supporting your arguments, the next she hates you and everything you stand for and downdings almost everything you say.
Sharmuta needs to try to keep her personal feelings/issues in check and stop trying to pretend that this is all about differences of opinion on political issues. Moreover she needs to quit trying to drag others into this bs who don't know what it's really about.
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