The Scientific Scandal of the Millennium

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 5:02 pm PST • Views: 318

A new release of private scientific correspondence reveals an astonishing conspiracy to manipulate and suppress evidence by top researchers in the field of Newtonian physics: Newtongate: the final nail in the coffin of Renaissance and Enlightenment ‘thinking’.

If you own any shares in companies that produce reflecting telescopes, use differential and integral calculus, or rely on the laws of motion, I should start dumping them NOW. The conspiracy behind the calculus myth has been suddenly, brutally and quite deliciously exposed after volumes of Newton’s private correspondence were compiled and published.

When you read some of these letters, you realise just why Newton and his collaborators might have preferred to keep them confidential. This scandal could well be the biggest in Renaissance science. These alleged letters – supposedly exchanged by some of the most prominent scientists behind really hard math lessons – suggest:

Conspiracy, collusion in covering up the truth, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in their public claims and much more.

But perhaps the most damaging revelations are those concerning the way these math nerd scientists may variously have manipulated or suppressed evidence to support their cause.

Read the whole sorry tale of Newtonian malfeasance.

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120 comments

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1 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:05:57pm

...of the week.

2 Buck  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:07:12pm

I am not going to justify this thread with a comment...


Doh!

3 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:07:36pm

Is 2 plus 2 still 4?

4 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:08:00pm

Not only that, but Newton was a really weird flavor of Christian. Not the kind of guy you'd want running, say, the NIH.

[a bite o' my thumb to all you atheists who feel that way about our current NIH chief]

5 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:08:30pm

re: #3 Cannadian Club Akbar

Is 2 plus 2 still 4?

Was it ever really 4?

6 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:09:19pm

re: #5 reine.de.tout

Was it ever really 4?

at least 25 or 6 to it.

7 golgoth  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:09:37pm

Oh...

I get jokes.

8 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:10:01pm

Even the numbers are imaginary.

9 spinmore  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:10:02pm

Parody notwithstanding; never let the facts get in the way of the story.

'global warming' I mean 'climate change' . . . I mean 'the underlying story is . . . "

10 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:10:23pm

re: #4 Cato the Elder

Not only that, but Newton was a really weird flavor of Christian. Not the kind of guy you'd want running, say, the NIH.

[a bite o' my thumb to all you atheists who feel that way about our current NIH chief]

Do you give me the fig, sir?

11 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:10:44pm

re: #5 reine.de.tout

Was it ever really 4?


I buy a 4 pack of tall boys and I get 5 beers.
re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

at least 25 or 6 to it.


46 and 2. TOOL.

12 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:11:21pm
[Hooks Considerations] consist in ascribing an hypothesis to me which is not mine; in asserting an hypothesis which as to ye principal parts of it is not against me; in granting the greatest part of my discourse if explicated by that hypothesis; & in denying some things the truth of which would have appeared by an experimental examination.

Newton to Oldenburg, 11 June 1672

It sounds like he is describing a strawman argument.

13 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:12:12pm

Speaking of things millennial, the NYT at some point seems to have decided to dumb down the language even more than it already has been by proclaiming its official plural of the Latinate word for "a thousand years" to be "millenniums". I've seen it too many times now for it to be an accident.

Eww.

What's next, "erratums"?

The world really is coming to an end.

14 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:12:44pm

re: #10 Decatur Deb

Do you give me the fig, sir?

I, sir?

15 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:13:05pm

That's hilarious.

Way to go, Charles.

Pepy's diaries are another good stop for scientific scandal; he was a member of the Royal Academy too.

16 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:13:34pm

re: #15 Obdicut

That's hilarious.

Way to go, Charles.

Pepy's diaries are another good stop for scientific scandal; he was a member of the Royal Academy too.

That would be "Pepys's".

17 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:14:33pm

Bravo!

A great parody of the hyperbolic reaction to the CRU-Gate .

18 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:14:49pm

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I, sir?

Just to spread the obscenity thread, "figi" is still the F-bomb in the Veneto.

19 Gus  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:14:57pm

re: #16 Cato the Elder

That would be "Pepys's".

Pepys'

;)

20 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:15:41pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

More signs of the impending apocalypse.

21 Gearhead  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:16:22pm

Weird. Why do the guys in the black helicopters each have a copy of the Principia?

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:16:37pm

re: #18 Decatur Deb

Just to spread the obscenity thread, "figi" is still the F-bomb in the Veneto.

Another bad word? Man, I'm never gonna pass my hate test needed to be a republican.
/

23 Gus  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:16:40pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Speaking of things millennial, the NYT at some point seems to have decided to dumb down the language even more than it already has been by proclaiming its official plural of the Latinate word for "a thousand years" to be "millenniums". I've seen it too many times now for it to be an accident.

Eww.

What's next, "erratums"?

The world really is coming to an end.

This may lead to a flurry of ad nauseums.

/

24 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:17:18pm

re: #16 Cato the Elder

That would be "Pepys's".

"The guy who had a bladder stone the size of a tennis ball and was operated on during 17th century medical conditions and managed to live through it"'s

He was hardcore.

His diary really does make great shocking reading, for anyone interested in that point in history. The frankness with which he admits his own incredible number of flaws gives him an enormous credibility in his assessments of others.

It's one of my favorite written works.

Apologies, Mr. Pepys, for slicing off your S.

25 hugh59  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:17:34pm

I find all the anger between the AGW crowd and the anti-AGW crowd to be unprofessional. Proponents of AGW seem to be running a political campaign, not a quest for scientific knowledge. Consequently, their credibility suffers.

I am an environmentalist and take great strides to avoid polluting and generating excess waste. I have doubts about AGW and there seem to be some people who will accuse me of bad behavior because of this. Let's cut the insults and look at the information.

26 Gearhead  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:17:56pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Speaking of things millennial, the NYT at some point seems to have decided to dumb down the language even more than it already has been by proclaiming its official plural of the Latinate word for "a thousand years" to be "millenniums". I've seen it too many times now for it to be an accident.

Eww.

What's next, "erratums"?

The world really is coming to an end.

One of "those" looks from my old Latin teacher would clear the whole thing up rather quickly.

27 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:18:33pm

re: #2 Buck

I am not going to justify this thread with a comment...

Doh!

What do you mean?

28 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:18:33pm

re: #19 Gus 802

Pepys'

;)

No. Unless classical or Biblical, a final "s" is followed by apostrophe-s in the possessive.

Prof. Sanders send an invitation on Sanders's personal stationery inviting us to dinner with the Sanderses at the Sanderses' house.

There you have the rule in a nutshell.

The possessive of Charles is Charles's, too.

29 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:19:19pm

re: #24 Obdicut

He's right up there with Gibbon.

30 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:19:37pm

If the sun refused to shine
I don't mind. I don't mind.
If the mountains fell into the sea
Let it be; It ain't me.

I'm going to wave my freak flag high.
If 6 was 9 - Jimi Hendrix

31 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #25 hugh59

I find all the anger between the AGW crowd and the anti-AGW crowd to be unprofessional. Proponents of AGW seem to be running a political campaign, not a quest for scientific knowledge. Consequently, their credibility suffers.

I am an environmentalist and take great strides to avoid polluting and generating excess waste. I have doubts about AGW and there seem to be some people who will accuse me of bad behavior because of this. Let's cut the insults and look at the information.

May I direct you to the great skeptical science site that hopefully will put your doubts to rest?

www.skepticalscience.com/

32 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:20:03pm

re: #25 hugh59

Are you an enviromentalist by trade or just in general? Just asking.

33 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:20:06pm

re: #30 Stuart Leviton

Upding for Jimi

34 Gus  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:20:19pm

re: #28 Cato the Elder

No. Unless classical or Biblical, a final "s" is followed by apostrophe-s in the possessive.

Prof. Sanders send an invitation on Sanders's personal stationery inviting us to dinner with the Sanderses at the Sanderses' house.

There you have the rule in a nutshell.

The possessive of Charles is Charles's, too.

Really? That's what I used to do and then switched. I guess I was doing it correctly in the first place.

35 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:20:43pm

re: #28 Cato the Elder


Prof. Sanders send an invitation on Sanders's personal stationery inviting us to dinner with the Sanderses at the Sanderses' house.

In the library with a candlestick.

36 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:20:46pm

re: #13 Cato the Elder

Speaking of things millennial, the NYT at some point seems to have decided to dumb down the language even more than it already has been by proclaiming its official plural of the Latinate word for "a thousand years" to be "millenniums". I've seen it too many times now for it to be an accident.

Eww.

What's next, "erratums"?

The world really is coming to an end.

Even I know that's incorrect.
And I'm and idiot heathen from the "deep south".
About as deep south as you can get without being in the Gulf.

37 cliffster  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:21:44pm

Now, if 6 turned out to be 9
I don't mind, I don't mind..

38 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:21:49pm

re: #25 hugh59

Hi. My name is Hugh, too.

39 cliffster  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:22:16pm

re: #30 Stuart Leviton

If the sun refused to shine
I don't mind. I don't mind.
If the mountains fell into the sea
Let it be; It ain't me.

I'm going to wave my freak flag high.
If 6 was 9 - Jimi Hendrix

Dammit, I was beaten to it. Well played

40 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:22:32pm

re: #36 reine.de.tout

Even I know that's incorrect.
And I'm and idiot heathen from the "deep south".
About as deep south as you can get without being in the Gulf.

That didn't help us.
///

41 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:22:58pm

re: #39 cliffster

Dammit, I was beaten to it. Well played

One of his absolute best songs. Always makes me feel like anything is possible.

42 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:23:00pm

And in more important news... the Mrs. just turned to the music awards, and Shakira is performing. There's got to be a controversy there somewhere.

Oh wait. I know what it is.

She's lip syncing. Yeah, that's it. As if anyone really cares one way or the other.

43 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:23:25pm

Greetings Bagua. Hope you are well. You taught me much
a couple of weeks back. I have wanted to thank you all
this time. Be well, my friend.

44 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:23:35pm

re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi. My name is Hugh, too.

His name is Hugh, not HUGE!!!
///

45 cliffster  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:23:44pm

re: #41 Obdicut

One of his absolute best songs. Always makes me feel like anything is possible.

Anything is possible if you have enough mushrooms

46 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:24:26pm

re: #40 Cannadian Club Akbar

That didn't help us.
///

I know. LOL.
I saw it after I posted it. I started off writing a different sentence, and then changed it but didn't edit properly. So I really am "an" idiot heathen from the deep south.

47 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:24:42pm

re: #39 cliffster

Dammit, I was beaten to it. Well played


I'll share my upding with ya'.
Plus, I'll leave it to you to post Vodoo Chile.

48 philosophus invidius  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:25:33pm

Newton didn't predict global warming, but he did predict that the world would end in 2060.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:25:51pm

re: #47 Stuart Leviton

I'll share my upding with ya'.
Plus, I'll leave it to you to post Vodoo Chile.

You find me "Peace in Mississippi" I will up ding you for a week.

50 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:26:33pm

re: #43 Stuart Leviton

Greetings Bagua. Hope you are well. You taught me much
a couple of weeks back. I have wanted to thank you all
this time. Be well, my friend.

That you for your kind words and good to have your voice here?

Whatever did I write?

51 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:26:54pm

re: #44 Cannadian Club Akbar

His name is Hugh, not HUGE!!!

People actually mispronounce my name to Huge. Have no idea why.

52 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:27:37pm

re: #49 Cannadian Club Akbar

You find me "Peace in Mississippi" I will up ding you for a week.

I am familiar with Nina Simone's "Goddam Mississippi" but never even heard of "Peace in Mississippi". Could you hum a couple of bars?

53 Long Nics are Looonnng  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:27:57pm

re: #50 Bagua

Whatever did I write?

You know... that thing you wrote.

54 cliffster  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:28:02pm

re: #47 Stuart Leviton

I'll share my upding with ya'.
Plus, I'll leave it to you to post Vodoo Chile.

Can't let a fella down..

55 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:28:27pm

re: #52 Stuart Leviton

I am familiar with Nina Simone's "Goddam Mississippi" but never even heard of "Peace in Mississippi". Could you hum a couple of bars?

It's a Jimi song.

56 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:29:09pm

re: #34 Gus 802

Really? That's what I used to do and then switched. I guess I was doing it correctly in the first place.

What really gets me is when people not only write "Jones' website" but pronounce it that way, too: "Jonezzz" instead of "Jonezzzezzz".

I'm being called to dinner. Back to further lament the fall of the world as evidenced by language later on...

57 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:31:47pm

re: #55 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's a Jimi song.


58 Girth  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:33:22pm

Pfft...

Newton was a hack and a fraud!

What the hell is a fluxion? And that notion, geez...

Long live Leibniz!

59 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:35:49pm

re: #58 Girth

Pfft...

Newton was a hack and a fraud!

What the hell is a fluxion? And that notion, geez...



Fool. The flux capacitor is based entirely on it.

60 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:36:36pm

re: #11 Cannadian Club Akbar

46 and 2. TOOL.

TOOL. With Carl Jung references.

61 billbrent  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:37:14pm

Clever. If you can't beat 'em, laugh at 'em.

Jon Stewart would be proud.

62 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:37:48pm

re: #36 reine.de.tout

Even I know that's incorrect.
And I'm and idiot heathen from the "deep south".
About as deep south as you can get without being in the Gulf.

South of Shreveport? (bless Justin)

63 Girth  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:39:23pm

re: #58 Girth

Pfft...

Newton was a hack and a fraud!

What the hell is a fluxion? And that notion, geez...

Long live Leibniz!

that notation...

PIMF

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:39:38pm

re: #62 Decatur Deb

South of Shreveport? (bless Justin)

I have friends in Gonzales.(sp?)

65 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:40:16pm

re: #58 Girth

Pfft...

Newton was a hack and a fraud!

What the hell is a fluxion? And that notion, geez...

Long live Leibniz!

fluxion = vanishingly small (but non-zero) part of a finite quantity

The preferred terminologies and notations vary; Leibniz's notations are most commonly used now.

66 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:40:24pm

re: #58 Girth

Pfft...

Newton was a hack and a fraud!

What the hell is a fluxion? And that notion, geez...

Long live Leibniz!

Well, the Leibnizian notation won out in the end.

And monads are a better descriptor of the universe than Newton's more mystical ideas. Monads are uncannily accurate, actually.

67 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:40:28pm

re: #57 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Video]


You win. I'll upding you for a week. Thanks.
Mississippi Goddam - Nina Simone (Civil Rights song)

68 Girth  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:40:47pm

re: #60 Cannadian Club Akbar

TOOL. With Carl Jung references.

[Video]

Great song on an all around incredible album.

69 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:42:22pm

re: #67 Stuart Leviton

You win. I'll upding you for a week. Thanks.
Mississippi Goddam - Nina Simone (Civil Rights song)

Amazing song. Wow. Thanks very much.

70 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:45:28pm

re: #68 Girth

Great song on an all around incredible album.

If you have never seen TOOL, see them. I don't use any drugs, including OTC, but I do make an exception for the right show.

71 Racer X  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:47:30pm

If 6 turned out to be 9, I think I would mind.

72 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:49:31pm

re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have friends in Gonzales.(sp?)

I'm from 2 states over, but Shreveport was the invisible "Yankee" line for Justin Wilson, great comedian (and safety engineer).

73 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:52:22pm

re: #72 Decatur Deb

I'm from 2 states over, but Shreveport was the invisible "Yankee" line for Justin Wilson, great comedian (and safety engineer).

I'm in Florida, so I'm safe.:)

74 kerino1  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 5:56:00pm
75 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:02:15pm

Please tell me this is a parody!

76 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:02:43pm

Never mind.. It is and it is brilliant! I just read the link through.

77 acwgusa  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:03:00pm

This is a funny parody.

Theft of Data is NOT funny.

78 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:03:13pm

Here is a pretty good and surprisingly accurate MSN piece about AGW.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

79 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:04:46pm

re: #75 LudwigVanQuixote

Please tell me this is a parody!

Nope. Some kids hacked into the Jacquard cards in a Babbage engine at the observatory at Greenwich.

80 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:07:04pm

re: #79 Decatur Deb

Nope. Some kids hacked into the Jacquard cards in a Babbage engine at the observatory at Greenwich.

I know about that.

I doubt that they were just some kids though given how hard the denial sphere went and picked through it for cherry picked lines, and that the denier sphere even saw it.

And the timing is pretty important too.

I said then and say again,

Contour integration can be a great trick for solving certain integrals.

81 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:10:05pm

re: #71 Racer X

If 6 turned out to be 9, I think I would mind.

If 69 turned out to be 96, it would make no difference.

82 hugh59  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:12:33pm

I will take a look at [Link: www.skepticalscience.com...]

Okay, a little more polite than most, but still it stereotypes the AAGW crowd. I have known a few AGW skeptics for several decades and they are not tools of the oil industry or hysterical right wingers.

I worry when I see demands for drastic and expensive corrective action. My father was a physician involved with cancer research during the 60s and 70s and he would get frustrated with limits on research and publication. Writers could not get published and could not get grants for research unless their proposed topics fit with whatever theory was in vogue at the time. The same thing seems to be happening with the debate over climate change.

83 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #82 hugh59

Writers could not get published and could not get grants for research unless their proposed topics fit with whatever theory was in vogue at the time. The same thing seems to be happening with the debate over climate change.

Are you accusing them of fraud?

84 ozbloke  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:25:35pm

Not sure whether its been reported here but this is on our abc news in Australia.

Workers exposed in Three Mile Island leak

Snippet...
A handful of workers have been decontaminated after they were exposed to a radiation leak at the Three Mile Island nuclear reactor in the United States, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) says.

85 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:28:02pm

From the link,

Here are a few tasters. They suggest dubious practices such as:
Conspiring to avoid public scrutiny:
...
Insulting dissenting scientists and equating them with holocaust deniers:

Presenting excerpts from a 1672 letter as "proof" of the assertion is ridiculous on its face. Does this guy know how to read a calendar?

Manipulation of evidence:
...
Knowingly publishing scientific fraud:
...
Suppression of evidence:
...

What a smear job!

Example: Lambasting Newton for "conspiring" to communicate with others via private letters. How sinister is that?

/ What gaul !

86 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:33:32pm

re: #25 hugh59

I find all the anger between the AGW crowd and the anti-AGW crowd to be unprofessional. Proponents of AGW seem to be running a political campaign, not a quest for scientific knowledge. Consequently, their credibility suffers.

I am an environmentalist and take great strides to avoid polluting and generating excess waste. I have doubts about AGW and there seem to be some people who will accuse me of bad behavior because of this. Let's cut the insults and look at the information.

hugh 59 -

Thank you sir. I am more business and law oriented, and remember things learned from Depression Era Parents and the Boy Scouts well before the first Earth Day in 1970. Stuff like - Waste Not, Want Not. Have generally lived that way, down to the CFL Bulbs that occupy every conventional socket in my home and office, a Ford Focus with "supplemental Bicycle" and so on. When I was young, science was science - Hypothesis to Theorem - Theorem to "Law" - all proved by experiments, repeatable by anyone with the same resources. Somehow, my feeling is that Science is best served by repeatable proofs rather than consensus. At one time, "consensus" included a "Geocentric System" and "Flat Earth." Scientific "Rebels" disproved both. I hope we are Not at that point again. That is all.

-S-

87 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:35:39pm

re: #83 Varek Raith

Are you accusing them of fraud?

Not so much fraud as bias defensiveness.

re: #86 Dr. Shalit

hugh 59 -

Thank you sir. I am more business and law oriented, and remember things learned from Depression Era Parents and the Boy Scouts well before the first Earth Day in 1970. Stuff like - Waste Not, Want Not. Have generally lived that way, down to the CFL Bulbs that occupy every conventional socket in my home and office, a Ford Focus with "supplemental Bicycle" and so on. When I was young, science was science - Hypothesis to Theorem - Theorem to "Law" - all proved by experiments, repeatable by anyone with the same resources. Somehow, my feeling is that Science is best served by repeatable proofs rather than consensus. At one time, "consensus" included a "Geocentric System" and "Flat Earth." Scientific "Rebels" disproved both. I hope we are Not at that point again. That is all.

-S-

Difficult when the data and codes are kept secret.

88 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 6:50:13pm

More is less.

89 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:10:35pm

haha

90 Bagua  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:19:51pm

re: #89 spacejesus

Your brevity is always refreshing.

91 Irenicum  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:36:49pm

Brilliant. And I like this from the site too. I'm sure AAGW's will cherry pick this to prove their pointless point.

92 Irenicum  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:38:48pm

re: #91 Irenicum

Although on the visual graph, I do wonder why the US and northern Europe are the only places cooler, whereas everywhere else is cooler. Strange.

93 Irenicum  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:39:32pm

re: #92 Irenicum

Everywhere else is warmer. Daah!

94 ryannon  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:42:14pm

re: #28 Cato the Elder

No. Unless classical or Biblical, a final "s" is followed by apostrophe-s in the possessive.

Prof. Sanders send an invitation on Sanders's personal stationery inviting us to dinner with the Sanderses at the Sanderses' house.


Gotcha.

Now stand in the corner with your back to the class.

95 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 7:56:19pm

re: #94 ryannon

Gotcha.

Now stand in the corner with your back to the class.

Only if I get to wear the pointy cap.

96 RRFan  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 8:31:26pm

Where are the good old days of Eugenics? I have just determined that 2 + 2 is 11 (Base three arithmetic). In case you haven't noticed there has been a surplus of agenda driven work and results on global warming on both sides. What is lacking is real objective science.

Call me when there are honest numbers and a published apology from Freeman Dyson. In the mean time feel free to waste all the time and ink you want.

97 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 9:37:06pm

re: #96 RRFan

Where are the good old days of Eugenics? I have just determined that 2 + 2 is 11 (Base three arithmetic). In case you haven't noticed there has been a surplus of agenda driven work and results on global warming on both sides. What is lacking is real objective science.

Call me when there are honest numbers and a published apology from Freeman Dyson. In the mean time feel free to waste all the time and ink you want.

Based on my respect for Dyson, I'm kinda hoping the apology is to him.

98 Wind Rider  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 11:09:23pm

Sorry, but I'm not buying in, whatsoever, to a flail-fest about the propriety of the circumstance that led to the release of this information. The circumstances are far from certain, but I've seen speculation that it may have been an 'inside' job - does the perpetrator get a pardon in the court of public opinion for an act of conscience?

Guess that depends on the source of the opinion.

Regardless of the source, the toothpaste is out of the tube. The bell has been rung.

It is neither shocking, nor, given some reflection, even surprising that such activities were taking place (manipulation, suppression, or obfuscation of data to either advance or defend professional standing, answer political pressure, or obtain or sustain funding streams, aka follow the money); these are, after all, human beings, playing the game for rather large stakes.

Is the climate changing? Absolutely! It's a part of a dynamic system, with changes every freakin day! It changes with every orbit of the planet! It changes with the variable cycles of the star in the local vicinity! It changes when volcanoes erupt, or frozen precipitation alters the albedo! Are there cycles and trends? Lots of them!

Are humans (or any other form of life that has arisen on this rock) and their activities a major, minor, or insignificant variable in the overall equation? Valid question, that - but one which, by all appearances, these 'poor, poor, victims of IT chicanery' weren't really, truly determining, by anything like an actual scientific, rational basis.

And there's the rub - that's the outrage. From what it appears, overall, that they were doing, in my mind they're not that much far beyond the village shamans insisting that a fresh virgin be tossed in the volcano to ensure that next year's crops are bountiful.

It seems to make it appear that the attempts at socio-engineering (as opposed to, say, actual terra-forming/planetary engineering) such as changing peoples lifestyles (don't drive a big SUV cause it'll heat the planet) make about as much sense as yelling at the kids to stop jumping on the sofa because it'll make the house overheat.

The whole three card monty guilt trip BS save the planet approach is, well, pretty repugnant, to me, at least. Want to drive the science to increase efficiencies, lower costs, raise standards of living, and in general actually make things better for everyone? - have a freekin NUT! Go for it! Bring IT ON!

Just, for Pete's sake, do it HONESTLY, instead of treating people like herd animals, only responsive to wolves, brushfires, or lightning.

Cause Al Gore makes for one UGLY ass sheepdog.

99 ludwigvanquixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 11:49:53pm

re: #98 Wind Rider

Well first off this is all a load of whooey. There is nothing there to this faux outrage.

The sicence is real.

All you have done is spout quite a few of the standard denier cries.

Ohhh the climate is always changing..

Yes it is, and the science is that we are the cause of actively changing it for the worse.

100 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Nov 22, 2009 11:52:02pm

re: #96 RRFan

Where are the good old days of Eugenics? I have just determined that 2 + 2 is 11 (Base three arithmetic). In case you haven't noticed there has been a surplus of agenda driven work and results on global warming on both sides. What is lacking is real objective science.

Call me when there are honest numbers and a published apology from Freeman Dyson. In the mean time feel free to waste all the time and ink you want.

Well the numbers have been published all over the place. Why not look at any scientific source. Not BS political websites, but real science sites or, even read some of the actual papers. No one is keeping anything hidden.

101 Bagua  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:00:29am

re: #100 LudwigVanQuixote

[...] No one is keeping anything hidden.

Not anymore.

All Your Climate Science Are Belong To Us!

/

102 windupbird is in the gravity well  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:37:22am

re: #96 RRFan

Where are the good old days of Eugenics? I have just determined that 2 + 2 is 11 (Base three arithmetic). In case you haven't noticed there has been a surplus of agenda driven work and results on global warming on both sides. What is lacking is real objective science.

Call me when there are honest numbers and a published apology from Freeman Dyson. In the mean time feel free to waste all the time and ink you want.

Back into your box, snake-handler.

103 [deleted]  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:04:24am
104 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:45:40am

Damn those whistleblowers!

105 ulmsey123  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:23:48am

Science is science. Facts are facts. Money is money.
The question to be asked is: Are the facts being manipulated for monetary gain at the expense of the science?
One big clue is the FACT that very few laws are being passed to actually CURB CO emissions. But they are TAXING the emissions in a big way. The money is flowing with no attempt to fix the "problem".
Is that not suspicious in and of itself?

106 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:54:19am

re: #11 Cannadian Club Akbar

46 and 2. TOOL.


What?

107 emcesq  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:12:43am

Replacing gasoline with electricity needs motors. Motors (and generators) need magnets. Magnets need rare earths. Rare earths are in China. Batteries need lithium; it is in Bolivia.
Are we potentially replacing one dependency for another?

What is the effect of rising temperature and resultant increase of amount of water in the atmosphere? Changes in precipitatin distribution (wasn't Sahara green way back when?). What happens to all the oxygen bound with carbon in the form of CO2? Won't plants grow faster and bigger given more CO2? In Siberia? (Khruschev's idea of corn in Siberia may become reality). Were oceans more acidic during the trilobite era?

Just random wonderings how complex this whole thing is...way beyond politics.

108 KittySaidWoof  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:17:47am

Here in Finland we have people telling that having children is the worst thing you can do because it accelerates global warming and are advocating one child policy for the entire world along with forced abortions (one of the proponents of this idea has admired holocaust as a particularly good means of controlling population growth and has suggested poisoning of water supplies of major cities as means to radically improve the world population numbers). Then of course we have the vegetarian lobby saying everybody who eat meat are evil because they're advancing global warming (apparently most of the greenhouse gases stem from meat production). In Estland they decided to raise taxes on fuel and electricity citing climate change while we're in the middle of the worst economic crises since the end of the occupation with unemployment predicted to reach a high point of 19% sometime next year.

I don't know enough about the science to make up my mind on the issue, and don't have the 3-4 years to spare to get the necessary expertise. I know the worst predictions didn't happen as the weather isn't that much different from 10-20 years ago here, but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen in the future. I do know there's lots of money involved (on both side of the arguments) and even more politics. Of the latter there is a huge crowd out there (at least here in Europe) who are so hysterical about the issue that they exclude all other policy considerations. For example what use is stopping GW if it requires suicide to stop? Or what use is it that Europe commits suicide when the rest of the world doesn't?

If the price of stopping GW is, as the most radical here are saying (and they are gaining support - the one child policy in a more moderate wording got 55% votes in the largest Finnish daily just a week ago), dropping democracy and market economy, instituting forced abortions and committing genocide, I'd rather pick GW and take my chance with asphyxiating from too much carbon.

The worst thing is that many of the same people who are now framing their policy proposals as AGW efforts have for decades made similar proposals, only before they've framed their proposals as eugenics, class warfare, fighting against famine, etc, etc. The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

109 NogenDavid  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:12:00am

"Insulting dissenting scientists and equating them with holocaust deniers:

[Hooks Considerations] consist in ascribing an hypothesis to me which is not mine; in asserting an hypothesis which as to ye principal parts of it is not against me; in granting the greatest part of my discourse if explicated by that hypothesis; & in denying some things the truth of which would have appeared by an experimental examination.

Newton to Oldenburg, 11 June 1672"

Newton is taking issue on the merits of the case with one scientists, not a group, over specific and stated allegations by that scientist connected with Newton's own work. Where is the personal attack? Where is the stereotypying of demeaning of any group of scientists? How is Newton's argument comparable to "insulting dissenting scientists" and "Holocaust denial"? The purported debunking is bunk, and as with any cheap use of references to the Holocaust, despicable.

I continue to believe, based on the variety of competing opinions and analyses I've read, not faith or antirationalism, that the uncertainty of the data about the terrestrial past and other data and the inherent difficulty of building reliable models about such a complex system, means that predictions about the future temperature change are highly speculative.

Excesses on the part of some critics of GW or AGW can be rightly identified, but hardly establishes the affirmative case for either scientific theory. In the absence of convincing data and models,
scientific thinking and policy planning will continue to be influenced among many, on both sides, by emotional factors and political prejudices.

How to govern given uncertainty in an area is a challenge in many policy areas. With AGW, we should be looking at areas of consensus
(it makes sense to find ways to sensible ways to cut down on US dependence on oil and gas for foreign policy and human rights reasons) and the benefits and opportunities of GW, if it is happening, as well as its costs, should be considered. Overreactions as well as underreactions to perceived risks (e.g, use of DDT to protect against malaria) can cause human suffering, even death.

110 shmuli  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:33:53am

#2 Buck
DOH! Exactly.
Science worshipers get what they deserve -- the destruction of their own religion.
Anyone who thought that science was without politics is naive. The trick is to figure out WHEN it is politics and when it is not.

# 108 KittySaidWolf
Well said. The Global Warming argument is only racism and hatred of one's fellows wrapped in a Green banner. A social/cultural/political fight dressing itself in science.

111 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 9:28:30am

And as usual with climate change threads, the deniers show up at the end to post insults to me, and one denialist talking point after another.

The stolen emails are a big pile of nothing. There's no conspiracy, there's no cover-up, there's no faking information, there's NOTHING going on here. You people who are yelling your heads off about it are being used.

112 claire  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:34:55am

re: #108 KittySaidWoof

In my opinion, it comes down to:

Stop having children ... or just build more nuclear plants?

Stop eating meat... or just build more nuclear plants?

Raise taxes and electricity rates to discourage use...or just build more nuclear plants?

Reduce the standard of living of everyone on the planet except the rich to that of college dorm-dwellers...or just build more nuclear plants?

One way regulates life in so many fundamental ways that I don't think we are prepared to embrace nor have forced on us. The other provides tons of jobs building and running nuclear plants! And we get to live life normally, and our economies and tax bases don't collapse and we can have families big enough to support the aged, and we don't have to get permission from the Feds to eat a steak once a month, and we can build any size house we want, and we can fly to see the world anytime we want, etc, etc, etc. Otherwise, unless we are willing to take a bulldozer to remove half the square footage of our houses, and walk everywhere instead of driving, we are never going to get to even European levels of energy frugality just by recycling grocery bags or changing a few light bulbs to flourescent or eating more lentils. It is only going to be a literal drop in the CO2 bucket, not do anything significant to CO2 levels (certainly not decrease them, maybe just slow the increase) and be a big waste of time.

Nuclear seems like the ultimate no brainer to me. That's where the efforts should be focused.

113 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #111 Charles
...uh, yes there is something going on here. They are akin to the Ralch Cioffi emails @ Bear or the Goldman notes regarding the strength of the mkt and their funds for clients like Maiden Lane while their trading desks were shorting the mkt. MMGW is quite simply the next thing to be exploited for profit & power. No different than the the last two theme parties that ended in major crashes. The internet bubble, the real estate bubble, now the renewable energy bubble.

So here we go again, so much "land", so much to "grab". Like the subprime crisis, first we had those "crazy" social scientists who wanted to solve the national "housing shortage/ownership" crisis, then we had the economists that made the arguments that pop. growth would support the mkts, then the politicians saw all the taxes generated by increased RE values, then wall street saw all the products to sell, and it just morphed into the greater fool theory (like the internet bubble w/ metrics like pageviews, and clicksPP) until the BS collapsed upon itself when the mkt ran out of fools, excuse me, qualified home buyers.

The problem we are are facing appears more to be a pollution problem than a world ending in heat and floods. A problem of dirty air & water and wasted resources while stressing certain eco-chains, and causing other less desirable ecosystems to thrive like algae, mosquitos, etc. I want the new efficient technologies to help usher out coal and oil as well. I want to pedal down the strand as well and breathe fresh air, but the argument being peddled as "the world on its last legs because of man" and we have 12 months to act is rather dubious. These emails are what most people suspected. That, shocker, the data was being manipulated, massaged and screened to fit a narrative in order to continue the inflow of grant money. Let's work to clean up the pollution that is rampant in our environment. Let's work to shift to smarter technologies that conserve our precious resources. You want to incentivize those businesses w/ tax payer subsidies. Ok. I can deal with paying for some of that, but quit being so deceptive.

114 KittySaidWoof  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:42:47am

Claire, I am all for more nuclear power, but it isn't exactly popular here. The ghosts of Chernobyl...

Some are claiming wind power and other alternative energy is the solution, but so far every windfarm gets major opposition from people who have to live near them and even in the best case scenario they can cover only a very little part of the energy needs.

While nuclear power can reduce power plants burning fossil fuels, it won't do much to reduce the emissions from agriculture.

115 hugh59  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:12:40pm

re: #86 Dr. Shalit

Thank you Dr. Shalit. I have a single CFL over my desk at work and keep the rest of the lights out. People tease me about that, but I find it peaceful and it helps me focus on my work. I also walk to work (a mile each way...soon to be a mile and a half each way). Saves money; saves time; and helps me stay healthy.

116 hugh59  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:17:34pm

re: #112 claire

Yeah Claire! Let's build 300 of them! Then we could switch to electric cars. We would no longer be reliant on fossil fuels. And let's keep development the technology. If we perfect the thorium reactor technology, we can have cleaner nukes with a fuel supply that could last us thousands of years.

117 NogenDavid  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:24:41pm

To be clear, I don't accept the tactics of hacking into private files, and the revelations are indeed ambiguous and could very well amount to nothing, and they hold no real interest for me.

My contention was, however, that the attempted parallel to Newton's writing is neither clever or apart, that it distorts what Newton says, and includes a vapid Holocaust analogy.

As for the larger debate over Global warming, once again I don't think the data and current state of modeling supports reliable predictions, I don't think that holding this view, correct or mistaken, need imply that I am anti-scientific, uninformed, or blinded by political prejudice.
An alternate approach would be to see this as one more important example of where public policy must be formed under conditions of uncertainty, and I attempted to make several suggestions as to how this could be one in the specific case of the debate over global warming.

118 billbrent  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:47:00pm

re: #111 Charles

. . . there's NOTHING going on here.

Really!? Then why is George Monbiot, the Guardian's avid defender of AGW, now calling for the resignation of Phil Jones, and the re-examination of some of the data discussed in the emails?

Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics(5,6), or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change(7). I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign. Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed.

119 NogenDavid  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:52:00pm

..and incidentally, Charles, since you took the trouble to personally give my original posting a negative rating, followed up by a peevish comment, there is nothing in it that constitutes an insult directed at you, I do not consider principled scepticism to be "denialist", I posted late because I arrived home from teaching a night class at a University.

120 billbrent  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:42:19am

I'm interested, Gus802, why the down ding to my post (#118) about George Monbiot calling for the resignation of Phil Jones? Was I not reporting the facts? Or are they simply facts you don't like? Or are you simply hoping the other readers will see your red number and not bother to read my comment? Hoping they'll just pass over it to the next green number? Is this your way of saying, "Move along now. There's nothing to see here."?


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