White House Announces New Science Education Initiatives

US News • Views: 2,953

President Obama’s scheme to indoctrinate America’s children is proceeding apace, with new initiatives to promote science, technology, engineering and mathematics: White House Pushes Science and Math Education.

To improve science and mathematics education for American children, the White House is recruiting Elmo and Big Bird, video game programmers and thousands of scientists.

President Obama will announce a campaign Monday to enlist companies and nonprofit groups to spend money, time and volunteer effort to encourage students, especially in middle and high school, to pursue science, technology, engineering and math, officials say.

The campaign, called Educate to Innovate, will focus mainly on activities outside the classroom. For example, Discovery Communications has promised to use two hours of the afternoon schedule on its Science Channel cable network for commercial-free programming geared toward middle school students.

Science and engineering societies are promising to provide volunteers to work with students in the classroom, culminating in a National Lab Day in May. The MacArthur Foundation and technology industry organizations are giving out prizes in a contest to develop video games that teach science and math.

“The different sectors are responding to the president’s call for all hands on deck,” John P. Holdren, the White House science adviser, said in an interview.

The other parts of the campaign include a two-year focus on science on “Sesame Street,” the venerable public television children’s show, and a Web site, connectamillionminds.com, set up by Time Warner Cable, that provides a searchable directory of local science activities. The cable system will contribute television time and advertising to promote the site.

The White House has also recruited Sally K. Ride, the first American woman in space, and corporate executives like Craig R. Barrett, a former chairman of Intel, and Ursula M. Burns, chief executive of Xerox, to champion the cause of science and math education to corporations and philanthropists.

While welcoming the new programs, some people say it doesn’t focus enough on improving the quality of school instruction.

“I think a lot of this is good, but it is missing more than half of what needs to be done,” said Mark S. Schneider, a vice president at the American Institutes for Research, a nonprofit research organization in Washington. “It has nothing to do with the day-to-day teaching,” said Dr. Schneider, who was the commissioner of education statistics at the Department of Education from 2005 to 2008.

LGF readers are probably aware that I’m a strong supporter of good science education, so I’m really pleased to see the President putting a spotlight on the subject — and curious to see how the right wing will attack these initiatives, because you know they will.

It’s an interesting contrast with Sarah Palin, who says in her book:

… she “didn’t believe in the theory that human beings — thinking, loving beings — originated from fish that sprouted legs and crawled out of the sea” or from “monkeys who eventually swung down from the trees.”

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421 comments
1 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:20:51am

At this point, I figure they'll attack due to its lack of support for intelligent design.

2 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:22:10am
— and curious to see how the right wing will attack these initiatives

"Science leads to recommendations of fewer mammograms! Unnecessary mammograms are necessary! Fewer mammograms = Death Panels!

/still annoyed by that one.

3 Baier  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:22:28am

Monkey + Monkey = Human//

Get ready for it!

4 Racer X  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:24:03am

Kudos Mr. President!

This is a nice start.

5 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:24:54am

A very worthy endeavor. It's also good to see that it incorporates the private sector with the likes of companies such as Xerox, Time Warner, Discovery Communications, etc., in addition to non-profits.

6 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:25:20am

I think every little bit helps, and this initiative will hopefully do wonders.

7 The Curmudgeon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:25:44am

This is very nice, but as long as the teacher unions retain their power, we still won't see much progress.

8 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:26:12am

If only there was such an initiative for civics education.

9 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:26:13am

Contrast with Sarah Palin, who says in her book:

... she “didn’t believe in the theory that human beings — thinking, loving beings — originated from fish that sprouted legs and crawled out of the sea” or from “monkeys who eventually swung down from the trees.”

10 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:26:18am

You like science?!?!?!

RINO!!!

///

11 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:26:26am

re: #6 Sharmuta

I think every little bit helps, and this initiative will hopefully do wonders.

It should help a lot, as long as we have the educators with enough of what it takes to actually teach the science.

12 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:26:50am

This is evil and must be stopped! Parents, keep your children home from school!

13 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:28:04am

re: #9 Charles

The more I hear from her, the dumber she sounds.

14 jaunte  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:28:22am
National Lab Day in May


/You know who else celebrates a day in May? Commies.

15 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:28:55am

Well, here's one Republican who thinks this is a good idea.

16 Racer X  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:29:04am

re: #12 Cato the Elder

This is evil and must be stopped! Parents, keep your children home from school!

And don't pay your taxes - this will force the evil schools to close.

Win / Win!

17 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:29:50am

re: #12 Cato the Elder

This is evil and must be stopped! Parents, keep your children home from school!

And itz a New York Thymes article and it haz teh evul Dr. Holdren!

//

18 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:32:09am

re: #17 Gus 802

And itz a New York Thymes article and it haz teh evul Dr. Holdren!

//

They're bringing eugenics to Sesame Street?! First Pooh, now Elmo. Is nothing sacred?

19 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:32:23am

They need to ditch that mediocrity imposing No Child Left Behind claptrap before they are going to see excellence in our schools again.

20 badger1970  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:32:37am

It sounds quite narrow in its focus. Usually the students that get science and math are the gifted and talented. The ones that this initiative is trying to get to are the students who don't have the initiative to learn them. For all the ho and humming, if the parents (or parent, guardian or whatever) of the students don't give the damn, odds are the students won't either.

I sigh at the billions of dollars wasted on education.

21 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:34:21am

re: #17 Gus 802

And itz a New York Thymes article and it haz teh evul Dr. Holdren!

//

Remember, Ben Stein said "science leads to killing people." John Holdren, science, killing people, eugenics, Big Bird ... it's just so damned obvious, people! Wake up before it's too late!

/need I?

22 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:34:32am

This is clearly a good initiative by President Obama. It is proper to recognize Obama's good works and praise them when they happen. By doing so, it confers credibility on us when we criticize his poor decisions. And there have been a pretty significant number of both. And I don't want to be accused of ODS when I take him to task. And I hear far too many of those accusations these days.

23 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:34:57am

Science = NASA
NASA = satellites
satellites = weather monitoring
weather monitoring = weather analysis
weather analysis = AGW
AGW = CRU
CRU = [RUN AROUND SCREAMING]

(stock up on paper bags, there's going to be a whole lot of hyperventilating)

24 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #20 badger1970

The ones that this initiative is trying to get to are the students who don't have the initiative to learn them.

The focus on games might snag a few who were previously unmotivated.

25 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #21 Charles

Remember, Ben Stein said "science leads to killing people." John Holdren, science, killing people, eugenics, Big Bird ... it's just so damned obvious, people! Wake up before it's too late!

/need I?

Only Glenn Beck can save us!

26 Merryweather  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:36:17am

re: #9 Charles

Fish suddenly sprouting legs is no more implausible than humans and dinosaurs coexisting on an Earth that's just turned 6000 years old.

I seriously doubt whether Palin has ever finished a book in her life, even the Bible.

27 Cineaste  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:36:22am

*note that was sarcastic mockery of conservative demagogues in case you didn't get it. That is roughly what Glen Beck will have on his chalkboard tonight I suspect... :)

28 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:36:53am
... curious to see how the right wing will attack these initiatives ...

Well, obviously Darwinism will be pushed so the long-planned eugenics program can get underway; Gorebull Warming (their religion) will be taught as a means of spreading worldwide socialism and confiscation of all private property; and Volcanology will be used to increase the national debt (part of a Gramscian plan, no doubt) through a jobs program to buy votes in the Blue states of California, Oregon, and Washington.

/how'd I do?

29 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:37:14am

re: #25 Sharmuta

Only Glenn Beck can save us!

But that will take 100 years!

30 ryannon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:37:41am

re: #9 Charles

Contrast with Sarah Palin, who says in her book:

She didn't exclude Walruses, did she?

For heaven's sake. give the woman the time to organize her thoughts.

31 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:40:28am

Tonight on Glenn's chalkboard - SCIENCE

S is Socialist
C is Communist
I is for Informants
N is for New World Order
E is for Everyone being slaves to OBAMA!

32 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:40:35am

we need scientists of all types. The solution to some of our most pressing problems can and will be solved by people of science. kudos to obama on this, this initiative can only help the future. Parents can help also..this Christmas season instead of some silly present like guitar hero or dj hero, or some overly violent video game thats the same as all the other crappy video games.. buy your child, age appropriate of course, a starter microscope kit ( I loved mine as a kid), a started chemistry set or maybe a small home weather station...get you kid something that maybe will get his or her wheels spinning...I know kids all want crap..like their friends has, but maybe that one gift like I mention might just unlock something very special.

33 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:40:49am

Soylent Green is made from science. Coincidence?

34 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #21 Charles

Remember, Ben Stein said "science leads to killing people." John Holdren, science, killing people, eugenics, Big Bird ... it's just so damned obvious, people! Wake up before it's too late!

/need I?

Yep, the usual illogical progression. You can't read anything about Darwin from the anti-science Luddite without seeing the word eugenics or Hitler tossed about. Seeing Dr. Holdren here is only a reminder of what to expect from the unhinged. Also seeing that Playstation is mentioned with a game title of, LittleBigPlanet. That should illicit quite a few "Inhofian" responses.

35 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:41:32am

Perhaps those who argue against better science education could benefit from better history education.

36 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:41:55am

There will, most likely, be naysayers but this seems like a good initiative to me. Perhaps Stephen Colbert can do a "War on Christmas" parody entitled "War on Science", just to illustrate the ongoing efforts to redefine or taint science with malarkey and mumbo jumbo.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:42:03am

re: #33 Mad Al-Jaffee

Soylent Green is made from science. Coincidence?

I once gave a history quiz on which I asked what the key fuel of the industrial revolution was. The answer was supposed to be 'coal', but one of the kids wrote 'people', and after some debate I was forced to award her the point.

38 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:42:14am

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tonight on Glenn's chalkboard - SCIENCE

S is Socialist
C is Communist
I is for Informants
N is for New World Order
E is for Everyone being slaves to OBAMA!

You need one more "C." ;)

39 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #35 Gearhead

Perhaps those who argue against better science education could benefit from better history education.

They'd be against that, too!
/maybe...

40 Spider Mensch  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #32 Spider Mensch

we need scientists of all types. The solution to some of our most pressing problems can and will be solved by people of science. kudos to obama on this, this initiative can only help the future. Parents can help also..this Christmas season instead of some silly present like guitar hero or dj hero, or some overly violent video game thats the same as all the other crappy video games.. buy your child, age appropriate of course, a starter microscope kit ( I loved mine as a kid), a started chemistry set or maybe a small home weather station...get you kid something that maybe will get his or her wheels spinning...I know kids all want crap..like their friends has, but maybe that one gift like I mention might just unlock something very special.


and maybe a spell/typo checker for me...sweet jebus too many pimf's to mention in that post...lol

41 ryannon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:43:37am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

I once gave a history quiz on which I asked what the key fuel of the industrial revolution was. The answer was supposed to be 'coal', but one of the kids wrote 'people', and after some debate I was forced to award her the point.

That was one sharp cookie. I would have prized a student like that.

42 badger1970  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44:07am

re: #24 wrenchwench

Unless science is used to blow up zombies in those video games.../ *coming from a cynical isd techie*

Outside the classroom is the damning thing. What motivation can be garnered for the students from national celebrities, renown scientists, and leaders of the industry? There's no connecting with the students on that level. It needs to be more local (hopefully starting with the parents) with community people who have made it. "Stand and Deliver" can only motivate until the first math test.

43 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44:12am

This is such awesome timing. I literally just got a project teaching math and tech literacy to younger children approved at work. Freaking awesome.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44:15am

re: #39 Varek Raith

They'd be against that, too!
/maybe...

They are against it. They hate any new developments in history education, because they believe history can only be taught one way, and mentioning any black people besides Crispus Attucks and women beyond Betsy Ross, and any poor people at all will destroy children's faith in America.

45 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tonight on Glenn's chalkboard - SCIENCE

S is Socialist
C is Communist
I is for Informants
N is for New World Order
E is for Everyone being slaves to OBAMA!

And if you rearrange the letters, it spells "insane"!1!

46 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44:18am

re: #33 Mad Al-Jaffee

Soylent Green is made from science. Coincidence?

I can hear it in my head over and over...

You've got to warn everyone and tell them! Soylent green is made of science! You've got to tell them! Soylent green is science!

Nice on man. Hilarious.

47 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:45:03am

Just about to ask if Beck will write about science in his 100 year plan.

Somehow, I doubt it.
Just an ever so slight hunch.

48 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:45:16am

re: #34 Gus 802

Yep, the usual illogical progression. You can't read anything about Darwin from the anti-science Luddite without seeing the word eugenics or Hitler tossed about. Seeing Dr. Holdren here is only a reminder of what to expect from the unhinged. Also seeing that Playstation is mentioned with a game title of, LittleBigPlanet. That should illicit quite a few "Inhofian" responses.

LittleBigPlanet is a great game! One of my favorites on the PS3. But that's just how evil I am.

49 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:45:51am

re: #20 badger1970

It sounds quite narrow in its focus. Usually the students that get science and math are the gifted and talented. The ones that this initiative is trying to get to are the students who don't have the initiative to learn them. For all the ho and humming, if the parents (or parent, guardian or whatever) of the students don't give the damn, odds are the students won't either.

I sigh at the billions of dollars wasted on education.

I don't. I thought I was an idiot at math until the eight grade, where a teacher recognized I just needed the concepts broached in a different way and took the time to reach me.

My parents are actually terrible at math, and could have never provided that for me. Parents cannot be masters of everything. You really do need to send your kids to school.

50 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:46:22am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

I once gave a history quiz on which I asked what the key fuel of the industrial revolution was. The answer was supposed to be 'coal', but one of the kids wrote 'people', and after some debate I was forced to award her the point.

Hi SFZ! Holy cow! How old was this young lady? That's one thinkin' student there. Good for you for awarding the points. Heck, I'd give her extra credit, but then I'm a pushover for kids who make me smack my head in a "duh" kinda way.

51 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:46:53am

After Sputnik was launched, the government did a lot more than this with education. We are still benefiting from some of those programs, like Perkins Loans, formerly called National Direct Student Loans, and before that National Defense Student Loans.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:47:15am

re: #50 subsailor68

Hi SFZ! Holy cow! How old was this young lady? That's one thinkin' student there. Good for you for awarding the points. Heck, I'd give her extra credit, but then I'm a pushover for kids who make me smack my head in a "duh" kinda way.

Fifteen. Extemely bright kid. Liked history because I would let her draw little cartoons all over her notes. One of the shining lights of a very rough school year.

53 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:47:59am

re: #48 Charles

Ok you went off topic first so I don't feel bad but... picked up Dragon Age: Origins this weekend on a digital download. It's quality and quite a bit of fun.

54 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:48:32am

I nearly did a BA in history, but opted for a BA in poltics/sociology instead, followed by an MA in sociology.

Now I can't get a job.
But hey, at least I can tell you why.

55 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:49:01am

re: #53 Locker

Ok you went off topic first so I don't feel bad but... picked up Dragon Age: Origins this weekend on a digital download. It's quality and quite a bit of fun.

I was thinking of picking that up. Multiplayer?

56 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:49:37am

re: #53 Locker

Ok you went off topic first so I don't feel bad but... picked up Dragon Age: Origins this weekend on a digital download. It's quality and quite a bit of fun.

Allistair makes me wanna whack him with my shield. ;)

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was thinking of picking that up. Multiplayer?

No.

57 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:50:19am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Doesn't look like it. The article linked below has some further details:

1up.com...

58 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:50:30am

OT, Sorry if it's too early:

Former Sheriff Busted for Running Pirate Radio Station Airing Alex Jones

WEST LAKE HILLS, Texas (KXAN) - A former Travis County Sheriff is being charged for breaking the law by running his own pirate radio station and illegally broadcasting the controversial Alex Jones radio show.

59 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:50:43am

I'm all for increased focus on math and science. We sure as hell could use it.

All Presidents focus on this stuff from time to time. It's easy to do, and at a time when you can't get people on both sides of the aisle to agree (see health care reform, etc), it's an area where you can get general agreement (and yes, I am setting aside the creationists for the moment).

This is all part of the Administration's message for the week, but it is notable that the bulk of the heavy lifting here isn't coming from the government, but from the private sector - foundations and corporate involvement, Sesame Street, etc. to expand educational opportunities.

It appears to sidestep the fact that with all the money thrown at education, all too much is wasted on bureaucracy, and not enough makes it into classrooms resulting in improved education, or improved student performance.

60 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:50:52am

re: #56 Varek Raith

No.

I'll have to wait then. Wife would kill me if I left her playing WoW solo again right now.

61 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:51:02am

re: #49 Obdicut

I don't. I thought I was an idiot at math until the eight grade, where a teacher recognized I just needed the concepts broached in a different way and took the time to reach me.

My parents are actually terrible at math, and could have never provided that for me. Parents cannot be masters of everything. You really do need to send your kids to school.

Parental involvement is still key. If the parents don't care, the child won't either. If the child needs more help than the parent can provide, a caring parent will get their child that help, an uncaring parent wont. Lucky are the children with uncaring parents, but a caring teacher. Even one caring teacher can make a difference in a child's life.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:51:28am

re: #43 Obdicut

Stimulus!

63 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:53:34am

Speaking of science, the LHC is starting to ramp up its power levels. It's expected to exceed Fermilab's Tevatron in power output 1TeV by Christmas (going to 1.2 TeV).

64 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:53:45am

re: #56 Varek Raith

Allistair isn't my problem, it's that big dude I got out of the cage from the first village. He simply refuses to assist the main tank if I don't watch him every minute. I ditched him and replaced him with the war dog, at least he's loyal.

I'm glad some kids are good with math and science or I wouldn't have all these cool games to play.

65 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:54:23am

re: #59 lawhawk

You raise valid points, but it is in the best interests of the private sector to invest in their own fields' instruction. In time, they will be rewarded with a work force capable of advancing ideas into innovations. The only thing that I find odd is why did this idea take so long?

66 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:54:33am

re: #20 badger1970

It sounds quite narrow in its focus. Usually the students that get science and math are the gifted and talented. The ones that this initiative is trying to get to are the students who don't have the initiative to learn them. For all the ho and humming, if the parents (or parent, guardian or whatever) of the students don't give the damn, odds are the students won't either.

I sigh at the billions of dollars wasted on education.

Only the gifted kids get science and math? Where are your kids going to school? Last I checked, science and math are core subjects at very level of primary education, at least they are in the Catholic school my kid goes to now and the public school she will attend next year. Maybe I'm missing something from the article, but I didn't read where it was just the AP kids that were being targeted.

67 Girth  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:55:50am

re: #25 Sharmuta

Only Glenn Beck can save us!

Yeah, but it's gonna take 100 years...

68 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:55:56am

re: #59 lawhawk

It appears to sidestep the fact that with all the money thrown at education, all too much is wasted on bureaucracy, and not enough makes it into classrooms resulting in improved education, or improved student performance.

Citation please.

69 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was thinking of picking that up. Multiplayer?

FYI though, I'm playing Aion and it's enjoyable and is primarily multiplayer with a good dose of PvP. Additionally it's complete and total eye candy for a graphics whore such as myself.

70 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:57:15am

Ahh... the proletariat is starting to chime in:

skeeter20 wrote:
Why do liberals have to over complicate things? the title of this article shoulh read: " Obama twists arms to fund higher salaries for teachers and fill campaign coffers."
11/23/2009 12:56 PM EST

Yutz wrote:
I CARE! SO THEREFORE I MUST BE COMPASSIONATE FOR THIS "CRISIS" POOR SCIENCE AND MATH SCORES AMONG THE WOMEN AND MINORITIES WHO AREN'T GETTING A FAIR PIECE OF THE PIE!

NOTHING NEW SAME OLD SAME...PAYBACK FOR NEA MEMBERSHIP UNION! YUTZ
11/23/2009 1:26 PM EST

71 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:58:05am

re: #63 lawhawk

Speaking of science, the LHC is starting to ramp up its power levels. It's expected to exceed Fermilab's Tevatron in power output 1TeV by Christmas (going to 1.2 TeV).

Does the impending black hole mean that I can skip Christmas shopping this year?
/

72 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:58:25am

Secular
Communist
Indoctrination
End-of-Times
Nanny State
Collectivist
Eugenics

European
Domination
United Nations
Chisholm, Shirley
ACORN
Trotskyite
Internationalist
Oligarhy!
Nationalism

73 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:58:31am

re: #68 Jeff In Ohio

Citation please.

[Link: newtalk.org...]

74 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:59:04am

re: #48 Charles

LittleBigPlanet is a great game! One of my favorites on the PS3. But that's just how evil I am.

I love that game. What's even better is that my wife loves it too, so we can play together. It's my way of indoctrinating her into the world of video games so that I can selfishly play more.

LittleBigPlanet was the "gateway drug" for her. Holy moley, I'm an enabler!

75 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:59:17am

Just couldn't help but notice disturbing propaganda coming from this website.

The previous article came from the American hating Salon, this one from the radical leftist NYT. On top of that, Charles likes the ps3, so he clearly doesn't buy American (Xbox people!).

I say to you all, I smell a RINO!

//

do I have to?

76 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:00:13am

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

thanks!

77 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:00:30am

/hmmm, can we get some of that math education for congress?

78 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:00:32am

re: #70 freetoken

Heh. Sadly predictable.

79 jaunte  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:01:01am

re: #77 brookly red

They know all about negative numbers.

80 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:01:02am

re: #61 Sharmuta

Parental involvement is still key. If the parents don't care, the child won't either. If the child needs more help than the parent can provide, a caring parent will get their child that help, an uncaring parent wont. Lucky are the children with uncaring parents, but a caring teacher. Even one caring teacher can make a difference in a child's life.

I'm not in the least bit arguing against it being key-- if my parents hadn't both been literary academics, I would have been been far more into math and science than I was-- but that it's not an unstoppable limiter.

My parents didn't get me that math teacher, he was just randomly assigned in the public school system and he was a hell of a guy.

I totally agre with your last two lines; my parents, though caring about my education in general, were ignorant of most science and hostile to much of it (religion). The same parent can be great for a child in one area, caring as hell, but, because of their own beliefs, unable to inspire or help that kid in another area.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just trying to make myself clear. Parents are the best way to motivate kids, but, even in the absence of parents or their direct opposition to certain learning, kids are still reachable by others-- especially teachers. And authors, if you can get the kid interested in general reading.

81 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:01:59am

re: #65 Sharmuta

It's similar to ideas that have been recycled for years at various levels of government. Public-private relationships to improve education. It also builds on governmental decisions to require more educational programming on television.

82 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:02:35am

re: #72 Gus 802

Secular
Communist
Indoctrination
End-of-Times
Nanny State
Collectivist
Eugenics

European
Domination
United Nations
Chisholm, Shirley
ACORN
Trotskyite
Internationalist
Oligarhy!
Nationalism

And the anagram of Science Education is:

Cacti Secede Union

So obviously this is an elaborate plan to have the American South West to secede from the Union, allowing Obama to declare Martial Law and declare himself Presidente for Life!

///

83 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:03:04am

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

[Link: newtalk.org...]

Hi Walter! Very, very interesting link. I need to read it all - some pretty savvy folks there it appears. Thanks.

84 AJStrata  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:04:42am

Sort of off topic, but if anyone is interested, I have looked at some important data that became public from CRU which seems to be to close the case global warming (man-made or otherwise). And it shows off that lovely 1940's blip:

[Link: strata-sphere.com...]

A good education includes a good background in science, math and scientific debate.

Cheers, AJStrata

85 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:04:54am

Scientific facts have a well-known liberal bias.
/Colbert

86 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:05:01am

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

The sign says what?

/CATO fodder

87 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #74 MrSilverDragon

I love that game. What's even better is that my wife loves it too, so we can play together. It's my way of indoctrinating her into the world of video games so that I can selfishly play more.

LittleBigPlanet was the "gateway drug" for her. Holy moley, I'm an enabler!

I was using the whole "and it's also a great Blu-Ray player" argument to get my wife to agree to a PS3, since Gran Turismo 5 is supposed to be out in March, but I received a blu-ray player as a birthday gift.

88 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #87 Gearhead

I was using the whole "and it's also a great Blu-Ray player" argument to get my wife to agree to a PS3, since Gran Turismo 5 is supposed to be out in March, but I received a blu-ray player as a birthday gift.

Got kids and some peanut butter?

/

89 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:07:22am

re: #85 philosophus invidius

Scientific facts have a well-known liberal bias.
/Colbert

& math facts? not so much.

90 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:09:17am

re: #68 Jeff In Ohio

Hmmm... let's see or here. The bureaucracies in the education field are affecting performance, and all too much money is spent outside the classroom.

All one has to do is look up NJ Abbott school districts and see that the billions spent on education since the NJ S.Ct. ruled in 1981 that additional money must be provided to those districts. It has not resulted in improved performance in the districts receiving that aid. The money isn't making it into the classrooms and performance isn't matched by increased spending.

91 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:09:42am

re: #85 philosophus invidius

Scientific facts have a well-known liberal bias.
/Colbert

Like the fact steel cannot melt and the Earth's core is several million degrees.

92 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:10:27am

re: #87 Gearhead

I was using the whole "and it's also a great Blu-Ray player" argument to get my wife to agree to a PS3, since Gran Turismo 5 is supposed to be out in March, but I received a blu-ray player as a birthday gift.

Take her to the nearest shop that sells PS3s, and show her LBP. She'll say "oh, that's so cute!" and you can respond in kind "yes, and you get to play with it and customize it to however you like!"

Before you know it, the PS3 will be sitting on your entertainment center, awaiting your command!... ok, maybe not, but it never hurts to try... you could also use the "but it's come down in price!" argument as well.

93 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:11:10am

re: #80 Obdicut

The most important thing I think we can do in education is reach 100% literacy. I'm a product of the public school system, and yet I was reading basic books before I ever set foot in a school. I was lucky my dad was a reader, and I grew up with reading being a normal, daily activity. It's interesting how these small habits on the part of parents can have a big impact on their children.

One thing that's distressed me a number of years ago was learning of an initiative to have public school children reading by the end of first grade. When I was in the schools, we learned how to read in first grade. It made me wonder what was going on in the schools that had changed this from the time I was there. I think it's a damn shame how much money is likely wasted and children suffer because of vested interests, and anti-intellectualism from both the left and right. Tragic.

94 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:12:26am

re: #90 lawhawk

. The bureaucracies in the education field are affecting performance, and all too much money is spent outside the classroom.

The changing ration of administrators-to-teachers over the years I think is the largest sign of the problem. Teachers teach. Administrators don't.

95 Cygnus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:12:40am

Maybe increased science education will counteract some of the 2012 nonsense out there. Great movie for special effects, by the way. Grab the popcorn and settle in for a pleasent afternoon of apocalypse!

96 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:13:08am

re: #92 MrSilverDragon

Take her to the nearest shop that sells PS3s, and show her LBP. She'll say "oh, that's so cute!" and you can respond in kind "yes, and you get to play with it and customize it to however you like!"

Before you know it, the PS3 will be sitting on your entertainment center, awaiting your command!... ok, maybe not, but it never hurts to try... you could also use the "but it's come down in price!" argument as well.

Why does a couple have to play "games" about purchasing something? Id that's what you really have to go through, it's not worth it and I would wonder about the trust factor between the two people? Weird.

97 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:13:10am

Didn't take long for a stalker to show up and comment on the LGF calendar page.

[Link: www.lulu.com...]

98 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:14:19am

re: #92 MrSilverDragon

Take her to the nearest shop that sells PS3s, and show her LBP. She'll say "oh, that's so cute!" and you can respond in kind "yes, and you get to play with it and customize it to however you like!"

Before you know it, the PS3 will be sitting on your entertainment center, awaiting your command!... ok, maybe not, but it never hurts to try... you could also use the "but it's come down in price!" argument as well.

Look at the money we're saving by only spending 400 instead of 500!

(says the guy who bought his kids a Wii for Christmas.)

99 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:14:26am

re: #97 Charles

Pathetic.

100 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:14:42am

re: #97 Charles

Didn't take long for a stalker to show up and comment on the LGF calendar page.

[Link: www.lulu.com...]

Psychopaths.

101 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:15:11am

re: #93 Sharmuta

My mother has taught freshman English at Rhode Island College, a, er, lower-tier college, for more than twenty years.

She has to teach them basic rules of grammar before she can even address the construction of arguments.

Often, the concept that that she wants their interpretation of a text rather than what they think she wants to hear scares them-- they get angry, and tell her she's impossible to please because they don't know what she wants them to say.

The weird lack of willingness to follow her instructions combined with a desire to have more explicit instructions has always frustrated her-- as well as their lack of basic preparation academically.

102 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:15:51am

re: #97 Charles

Didn't take long for a stalker to show up and comment on the LGF calendar page.

[Link: www.lulu.com...]

Probably an early purchaser, just for the reminder of what that itchy feeling in its head is.

103 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:16:22am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

If your attitude in relationships is simply "I'll do what I want, thankyouverymuch" you're going to have problems as well. I don't ask for permission, but I have no problem explaining my reasoning, and adjusting it if I'm proven wrong.

104 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:17:18am

re: #90 lawhawk

Thanks, I'll check those out.

I've been reading some of the comments in the link Walter provided and a question immediately springs to mind. With the exception of No Child Left Behind mandates, it seems that a lot of the bureaucratic inefficiencies are local in origin and dal with competing parochial interests. What role can the Federal Government play in reducing bureaucracies at the local level? Anyone?

105 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:17:21am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Don't mean to snipe and run either, but my battery here has 3 minutes left and i got a bus to catch. Good afternoon/evening/morning Walter et All.

106 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:18:20am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Why does a couple have to play "games" about purchasing something? Id that's what you really have to go through, it's not worth it and I would wonder about the trust factor between the two people? Weird.

It's about introducing them to the platform, and showing the benefits along with it. If both are on the same page, then the trust is there, and no one is "gaming" anyone. Besides, my wife loves singing and I got her "SingStar" for the console. While that's not my forte, she loves it, and that makes me happy to see her happily piping away with the songs.

107 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:18:52am

re: #97 Charles

Didn't take long for a stalker to show up and comment on the LGF calendar page.

[Link: www.lulu.com...]

I counter-reviewed, and reported the other link.

108 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:18:55am

I've been spending my own time and money to teach science to kids (and not just my own) for years.

Because it matters.

Because it's important.

Because I occasionally get to blow things up, burn things, smash things into bits, and best of all...I have moral justification for the Giant Slinky of Awesomeness.

109 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:19:13am

re: #93 Sharmuta

Ahh... first grade. I remember the reading drills, around in small circles. Dick, Jane, Spot (yes, we really did use that series) riveted my attention to the small, well worn books clasped by my not yet too big hands.

Those were the good ol' days.

It does seem that my class size in those days were smaller than what we see today.

When I look at young children today, as I travel around the greater San Diego area, I'm becoming more and more aware (as I age) how important a few decisions of the parents can be, as the child first starts to venture out in the world.

It becomes pretty obvious which children are going to get a leg up in world, and which ones are in the process of getting thrown to the side.

Painful it is to watch 3, 4, and 5 year old children who through no fault of their own are attached to parents who really would rather not want them.

110 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:20:02am

re: #104 Jeff In Ohio

Thanks, I'll check those out.

I've been reading some of the comments in the link Walter provided and a question immediately springs to mind. With the exception of No Child Left Behind mandates, it seems that a lot of the bureaucratic inefficiencies are local in origin and dal with competing parochial interests. What role can the Federal Government play in reducing bureaucracies at the local level? Anyone?


They can only replace them with bureaucracies at the Federal level really. And that's not snark, that just the way it is.

111 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:20:33am

Science and technology are double-edged swords, which have greatly multiplied mankind's capacity to save or destroy countless lives.
Yet this obvious and self-evident truth seems so difficult for some people to accept...sheesh, it's not rocket science!

112 jordash1212  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:21:02am

It's about time the curriculum in our public schools is updated. If I were advising President Obama, I'd ask him to implement the International Baccalaureate program in all public high schools.

113 dugmartsch  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:22:25am

re: #22 _RememberTonyC

This is clearly a good initiative by President Obama. It is proper to recognize Obama's good works and praise them when they happen. By doing so, it confers credibility on us when we criticize his poor decisions. And there have been a pretty significant number of both. And I don't want to be accused of ODS when I take him to task. And I hear far too many of those accusations these days.

I guess. But this is the kissing babies part of his presidency. If you critique his baby kissing skills you're not guilty of ODS you're just a cantankerous curmudgeon.

The substantive quality of the critique is the only way to determine if it's author suffers from ODS. Trying to 'work the refs' this way is disingenuous.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:22:26am

re: #112 jordash1212

I was going to agree. I thought you said Bacchanal...

115 HAL2010  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:22:31am

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

When you see it ..

116 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:22:42am

re: #104 Jeff In Ohio

Thanks, I'll check those out.

I've been reading some of the comments in the link Walter provided and a question immediately springs to mind. With the exception of No Child Left Behind mandates, it seems that a lot of the bureaucratic inefficiencies are local in origin and dal with competing parochial interests. What role can the Federal Government play in reducing bureaucracies at the local level? Anyone?

Amazing. You want to turn to the federal government right away. Why don't you get involved in you local school board politics and all that stuff. The changes need to START on a local level, and then you will see it snowballing up to the national level.

117 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:23:39am

re: #101 Obdicut

When I was in high school, my Government teacher made sure we had a weekly debate day, where the class would debate a current event, or other issue raised in the course of the week. He encouraged us to think and speak for ourselves, and he was much beloved for it. Maybe your mother's students haven't had such an encouraging teacher in the course of their education? It wasn't easy for some of my classmates, but it made a lasting impact on countless kids. I bet your mom does the same thing.

118 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:24:05am

re: #97 Charles

Didn't take long for a stalker to show up and comment on the LGF calendar page.

[Link: www.lulu.com...]

Didn't know those were your picts. As a BFA from the prestigious institution of higher photographic learning, RIT, and MFA drop out, may I say nice job! Don't know what your camera is, but I pulled my 5x7 Deardorff out of the barn last week in preparation for a 2010 project of portraits on salt prints. Mostly I'm a 2-1/4" rangefinder guy. I love photographing empty places also and highly recommend the artbook by Syl Labrot - Pleasure Beach.

119 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #112 jordash1212

Many schools are doing just that. Some are also pursuing AP programs, but the flip side is that many colleges are no longer accepting all passing AP grades, but instead choosing only to accept the highest scores.

IB isn't a panacea, particularly if the school district is a poor performer.

120 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:24:26am

re: #110 brookly red

They can only replace them with bureaucracies at the Federal level really. And that's not snark, that just the way it is.

We can dissolve the bureaucracies and the regional governors can have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line.

/

121 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:26:36am

re: #109 freetoken

Yes... it's very sad.

But we can hope at some point someone will cross those children's paths to inspire them to rise above their beginnings. This is, after all, America. They can do anything they set their minds to.

122 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:26:41am

re: #104 Jeff In Ohio

Thanks, I'll check those out.

I've been reading some of the comments in the link Walter provided and a question immediately springs to mind. With the exception of No Child Left Behind mandates, it seems that a lot of the bureaucratic inefficiencies are local in origin and dal with competing parochial interests. What role can the Federal Government play in reducing bureaucracies at the local level? Anyone?

Interesting question, Jeff, but it is unlikely that Federal intervention would lead to less bureaucracy, as government in general - and at the Federal level in particular - sees bureaucracy as fundamental to the smooth operation of any given department/agency.

One would think that reducing bureaucracy at the local level would be simpler than asking the Feds to do it, as - at least in towns the size of mine - most folks know the school board members, and can have some input into the decision making process simply by chatting with them at the local coffee shop.

(Yeah, I know that's not a practical in large cities - but it still beats trying to get in touch with someone at the Dept. of Education.)

123 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:27:13am

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Amazing. You want to turn to the federal government right away. Why don't you get involved in you local school board politics and all that stuff. The changes need to START on a local level, and then you will see it snowballing up to the national level.

Point taken. I am involved at a local level, mostly in the classroom.

124 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:28:33am

re: #117 Sharmuta

When I was in high school, my Government teacher made sure we had a weekly debate day, where the class would debate a current event, or other issue raised in the course of the week. He encouraged us to think and speak for ourselves, and he was much beloved for it. Maybe your mother's students haven't had such an encouraging teacher in the course of their education? It wasn't easy for some of my classmates, but it made a lasting impact on countless kids. I bet your mom does the same thing.

She does. She makes them write papers, and then a critique of their own papers. Many of them have great, great difficulty doing so, but a lot of them cite it as the moment they really understood what critical reading and writing was all about.

125 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:29:15am

I've been wondering why I had gotten no email this morning and then I noticed I've spent the last 2 hours looking at my sent items folder. Thank God for a slow work week, I missed nothing.

126 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:32:34am

Although it's difficult to criticize an initiative like this, it also raises the question: why weren't the funds simply left in their local school districts in the first place, with the Feds perhaps issuing either recommendations or even a mandate for achievement? What is the purpose of sending the money to Washington, have dozens or hundreds of hands take their own small piece of it with every touch, and ultimately send what's left back where it came from?

Also, this will be the third or fourth national effort to boost national math and science scores during my lifetime, and I have no doubt that it will run up against the very same problems earlier efforts did - limited results, thanks to the fact only a certain percentage of the population is cut out to do science and math. Yes, you can probably get some small, measurable improvements in these areas, but it probably won't make any significant difference; you'll pick up a few students who, through lousy education, were steered away from such fields, but overall you aren't going to pick up large numbers of new scientists, engineers or mathematicians because there seems to be a relatively fixed percentage of the population capable of doing such work.

Much of the gain will come through rote memorization, too, not through actual understanding. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't the best thing, either; you wind up with a sort of scientific idiot savant, with a head stuffed full of facts and no idea how to apply them to new and interesting problems. Useful for performing the grunt work of science and engineering, but when it comes to making new discoveries...not so much.

Color me skeptical, but I don't see this or any similar efforts producing anything in proportion to the dollars that will be spent.

And note that this is not a partisan rant; I've made identical arguments for a couple of decades now, no matter which party is making the proposals.

127 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:34:37am

Sounds great (!?) . . . you mean schools haven't been teaching math and science?

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:34:52am

While support and funds from above are necessary, nothing, absolutely nothing replace a committed teacher.

Not even the Giant Slinky of Awesomeness. Or the Ring of Fiyah! Or Lithification or a Batholith. (Say that out loud.)

*If you make something silly or emphasize it, kids will remember it.

129 Claire  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:35:35am

I'm all for this- more please. As an engineer, I don't know how anybody can possibly argue that we don't need to graduate more of them!

Why as a country, though, were we able to produce alot more scientists/engineers per capita in the era when it could be argued we were even more religious than we are now, and we only had 3 TV channels + PBS. Science exposure outside of school was maybe Mr. Wizard and a Sunday afternoon Mutual of Omaha.

Now, we have science shows and how it's built and extreme engineering shows (I love those!) and stuff all over the place 24 hours a day. It's not lack of availablility. I know astronauts back in the day were huge role models for me. Somehow, we have to make science cool again. I'm glad the effort is being made.

130 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:37:58am

At my daughter's high school for parent night (we didn't have one in high school, did you?) I noticed that the first teacher had replaced her chalkboard with a big screen that was a computer screen. She had a stylus to scroll through her notes. Very slick.

The next class had an overhead projector. I asked the teacher why he didn't get a cool giant computer screen. He said the history department had gotten a grant, but not the English department.

Fast forward a few days: My daughter mentioned that the teachers aren't giving out handouts they would like to give out because the school doesn't have the budget for enough paper.

Does anybody else see a problem here?

131 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:39:35am

Just in time for a science thread:

Watch scientists 'prove Darwin wrong'

Just in time for the 150th anniversary of Charles Darwin's "On the Origin of Species," a team of Christian scientists has traveled back in time to the birthplace of evolution to "prove Darwin wrong."

The scientists have embarked on a journey to the Galapagos Islands, the same island chain Darwin visited during the voyage of the HMS Beagle in 1835. [... lots of mind numbing idiocy ...]

"It's because of Darwinism that we have eugenics, the belief that we should manipulate the gene pool to get a higher form of human being," he said. "This was adopted by Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood and the leading eugenicist thinker of her time period. It was adopted by Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin and others."

[...]

Certainly we couldn't let a science thread go by without highlighting the connection between Darwin and eugenics, could we?

132 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:40:34am

Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman for Education Czars!

133 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:40:46am

re: #129 Claire
Stop trying to apply logic here . . . don't you know we need another government program. You must be an extremist.
/

134 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:40:49am

re: #129 Claire

Hi Claire. It would seem what we really need is a guy like:

A.C. Gilbert

Talk about cool! I had 'em when I was a boy - lots of fun.

135 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:41:18am

re: #130 EmmmieG

The tech toys drive up costs, and the actual education done with the tech toys can be achieved with the no-tech dry erase board or chalkboard just as easily. Ignoring the basics in favor of the flashy.

Where have we seen that problem before?

Oh yes, in infrastructure - where building new bridges, roads, etc. get more money and routine maintenance is ignored, sometimes with dire results (like repair costs being several times what it would have been had maintenance been conducted properly all along.

136 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:42:47am

re: #131 freetoken

Just in time for a science thread:

Watch scientists 'prove Darwin wrong'

Certainly we couldn't let a science thread go by without highlighting the connection between Darwin and eugenics, could we?

Like I said above in #34, "you can't read anything about Darwin from the anti-science Luddite without seeing the word eugenics or Hitler tossed about."

They're a hopeless case.

137 Idle Drifter  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:42:48am

You know what would get kids of all ages into science and math. MAD Scientist Day! Think of all the cool secrete hideouts to inspire these kids to work hard in school because we all know the funding needed build inside an active volcano or a floating sky fortress is not covered by welfare. The Lizard Lair under the DIA wasn't paid for by food stamps! Show a group of kids what a mass driver rifle does to a test subject aka cow or the neat holes the particle cannon puts into the Hover Dam. We need architects, engineers, technicians, accountants, investors, etc to build the multinational conglomerates necessary to create these wonderful tools of destruction.

Also we can show the kids what happens in these efficient organizations to those who do not study hard in school and become the name-tag-less expendable henchmen that get wasted by the dozens at a time by secrete agents, commando teams, and the day-to-day activities within a secretes lair such as feeding the bionic, flying piranhas.

138 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:44:10am

re: #129 Claire

I'm all for this- more please. As an engineer

Cool. Ever drive the Chatanooga Choo Choo !?!?!

//

139 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #136 Gus 802

Like I said above in #34, "you can't read anything about Darwin from the anti-science Luddite without seeing the word eugenics or Hitler tossed about."

They're a hopeless case.

Don't you just love it when they prove you right?

It really is like clockwork with this issue. There is nothing to be surprised with their stance on this issue.

140 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:45:17am

OT

Interesting morning I've had. Last week, my general dentist (a "company" dental "store") left in a part of a tooth root when extracting a tooth, so this morning I had an appointment with an oral surgeon to get that piece out. There was also another tooth that needed extraction (I'm working on getting a partial), so the oral surgeon did the other extraction too.

My general dentist is about 75 years old and very old school, gentle, careful, a bit slow, and comforting. Well, this oral surgeon (same "company," different office) I went to must have just come off the battlefield or something. The whole two procedures took under 20 minutes.

He swabbed my gums with a topical anesthetic, and within 30 seconds, he was in there with the needles to shoot in the local anesthetic. He barely gave the topical any time to take effect. And he used a total of 5 needles of anesthetic. I think by the time he was done shooting this stuff into my mouth, my naval was numb. And working fast? He had the root and the other tooth out in about 10 minutes. And that included two stitches in the gum where the tooth root was buried.

My head and mouth feels like a truck ran over them. And he shoved so much gauze up into my mouth, that I scared myself when I looked in the mirror in the car. It was a Joker smile all the way.

As I was walking through Safeway to get to the pharmacy, I was scaring people with this Joker face that was dripping blood into a napkin I had in my hand. I finally pulled out the gauze and wrapped it all in a napkin and put it in my pocket. It was better than walking around and looking like a psychotic comic book character.

And my whole jaw and mouth is useless right now. I took two Vicoden about an hour ago, and I was wondering why I didn't feel anything. Well, a few minutes ago I found the tablets stuck to my upper denture. My pitiful attempt to swallow them with a little water didn't work, and I'm so numb that I didn't even realize that they hadn't gone down and they were stuck to the roof of my mouth.

I finally got the medicine past my mouth. I feel good now.

141 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:47:50am

re: #140 Walter L. Newton


I finally got the medicine past my mouth. I feel good now.

Hope your pain subsides soon and your injury heals quickly.

When I had my hernia operation I was told it was a 'walk-out' operation.

Please note: If you've just had a hernia operation, don't try to walk. Bad things happen in the groin area.

142 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #128 EmmmieG

While support and funds from above are necessary, nothing, absolutely nothing replace a committed teacher.

Not even the Giant Slinky of Awesomeness. Or the Ring of Fiyah! Or Lithification or a Batholith. (Say that out loud.)

*If you make something silly or emphasize it, kids will remember it.

What about the magic missile?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWAb5NVALw

143 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:49:01am

Call me crazy, and this is 'Reading' related, as opposed to math and science, but my children watch 'Letter Factory'... good grief...that DVD works WONDERS! My little boy was reading simple words by 4 years old and my little girl is now making huge increases in her alphabet sounds.

ONSP endorsement, "Letter Factory" by Leapfrog = 5 stars.

144 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:52:04am

re: #143 Oh no...Sand People!

Call me crazy, and this is 'Reading' related, as opposed to math and science, but my children watch 'Letter Factory'... good grief...that DVD works WONDERS! My little boy was reading simple words by 4 years old and my little girl is now making huge increases in her alphabet sounds.

ONSP endorsement, "Letter Factory" by Leapfrog = 5 stars.

I work for Leapfrog, on the Tag series of books.

I'll pass your compliments along to the guys who made the DVDs.

Thanks very much.

145 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:52:22am

re: #139 freetoken

Don't you just love it when they prove you right?

It really is like clockwork with this issue. There is nothing to be surprised with their stance on this issue.

It's almost like "drag and drop rhetoric." They have a menu of blocks and components which are made up of words and names like Hitler, Sanger, eugenics, Mao, Stalin, etc. They can simply put together a sentence from there: Darwin's eugenicist theories were later to provide inspiration for Adolph Hitler. Godwin's law at play once again and it never seems to end.

146 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:54:10am

On an unrelated topic, a full run of "The Prisoner", original 1967 release, just came into my possession. Thats a wierd show. Good though.

147 Idle Drifter  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:54:18am

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

Hope you feel better and regain full use of your jaws soon.

148 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:55:32am

re: #141 Obdicut

Hope your pain subsides soon and your injury heals quickly.

When I had my hernia operation I was told it was a 'walk-out' operation.

Please note: If you've just had a hernia operation, don't try to walk. Bad things happen in the groin area.

I've had two hernia operations, in the groin, and I walked out fine. Was back to work in a couple of days both time. I'm 56 and the most recent one was about 15 months ago. Part of my job at the theatre is physical, and the operation didn't keep me from work. I had the recent one on a Tuesday and was back to work on Thursday.

I have a high tolerance for pain and I heal fast.

The only thing that surprised me this morning was the speed and "hard handling" that this surgeon invoked. I had never seen a dentist operate in that way.

149 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:56:02am

re: #107 Obdicut

I counter-reviewed, and reported the other link.

Thank you!

150 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #147 Idle Drifter

Hope you feel better and regain full use of your jaws soon.

Thanks. Most all, I'm hungry right now, but I don't even want to attempt broth, I'll be wearing it. And of course, no sipping allowed through a straw, they don't want sucking against the open wounds.

151 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:57:35am

re: #144 Obdicut

I work for Leapfrog, on the Tag series of books.

I'll pass your compliments along to the guys who made the DVDs.

Thanks very much.

My pleasure. I wish I could say it was my 'pro active' parenting...but no way... I lay the 'blame' of my sons reading skills directly to the phonetics approach of Letter Factory. I helped him put the sounds together...but once he figured out how to put 'one brick on top of the other'...the houses the kid is building are all his.

Great stuff.

152 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:57:54am

re: #140 Walter L. Newton
Ouch!!
But did he have his knee in your chest??
Mine did...
Hope ya feel better soon Walter!
...Did you get pictures??
.*duck*

153 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:58:25am

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

Mine was freaking huge. That's probably a difference.

I have an autosomal problem with not sensing pain well, especially internal pain, so I literally didn't notice the hernia for five years, or think it was unusual. (thanks for the lack of sex ed, mom and dad!)

That probably makes a difference.

Theater has some of the toughest people working it; I was a techie back in college, a light board operator with old-style manual A/B boards, and it was amazing how people would pull together despite the stress of school and sickness and everything else to make a show go on. It's wonderful.

154 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:00:12pm

Your text to link...

Charles, this is for you since you recently added the "Retweet" option

155 borgcube  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:01:16pm

Whatever works. Because when almost 1/3 of people 18-24 can't even point to the Pacific Ocean on a map, there's really only up as far as science educations goes. Oh, and for the 11% who can't even point to the US, let's forget about a good college education for them for awhile, especially one on my dime. And forget about math! (Particularly humiliating was that all countries were better able to identify the U.S. population than many young U.S. citizens. Within the U.S., almost one-third said that population was between one billion and two billion; the answer is 289 million.)

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

We've got a bit more to worry about than creationism being taught in schools I'm afraid.

156 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:01:35pm

re: #154 imp_62

Your text to link...

Charles, this is for you since you recently added the "Retweet" option

That did not work - sorry. Follow this link, though.
Image: fw091115.gif

157 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:01:56pm

Just in time for a science thread (take II):

I see in the spinoffs that someone posted a link to a new front group for AGW deniers, an organization that pretends to be concerned about AGW but looks to be just a collection of the usual suspects.

In particular I chose to criticize the use of Ian Plimer as a source of expertise on climate. Plimer is one of the nuttier deniers.

158 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:04:23pm

re: #152 reloadingisnotahobby


Hmmm.. this visual comes to mind.

159 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:04:36pm

Just a reminder about the American populace and science:

Half this nation does not accept evolution as being true.

About a third believe the Earth is 10,000 years old or younger.

President Obama is underestimating the challenge.

160 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #155 borgcube

I was one of those kids that read N.G. from cover to cover
as soon as ot fell thru the mail slot!
My grandmother had bound volumes from 1908 to present!
The collector value is zero!
Only the Ads in the mag are collectable!
Unbelievable source for research!
WTF is all I can think!

161 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #159 freetoken

Just a reminder about the American populace and science:

Half this nation does not accept evolution as being true.

About a third believe the Earth is 10,000 years old or younger.

President Obama is underestimating the challenge.

Meh. After 2012, it won't make a difference what people think, anyway.

//

162 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:05:56pm

I've made it a practice with my kids to read anything I can to them and they've both taken off reading on their own. They are in first and second grade and already reading books for 10 and up. I let them pick books for me to read out loud for them and read along with. My youngest likes Sherman's Memoirs for some reason and my older girl likes Robert Jordan books.

163 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:06:38pm

re: #158 lawhawk
Yeah!!
That brings it all back!
Thanks!LOL

164 Bagua  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:07:05pm

We don't want no edumacation,

Teacher leave dem, kids alone

165 recusancy  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:08:21pm

A major challenge will be to get the best and the brightest to choose engineering and science over wall street.

166 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:09:21pm

re: #153 Obdicut

Mine was freaking huge. That's probably a difference.

I have an autosomal problem with not sensing pain well, especially internal pain, so I literally didn't notice the hernia for five years, or think it was unusual. (thanks for the lack of sex ed, mom and dad!)

That probably makes a difference.

Theater has some of the toughest people working it; I was a techie back in college, a light board operator with old-style manual A/B boards, and it was amazing how people would pull together despite the stress of school and sickness and everything else to make a show go on. It's wonderful.

I work at a small professional theatre, it's part time (my only job right now). We have three salaried employees, the Producer, the Artistic Director and me, the production manager. But like any small operation, we all wear many hats. I vacuum, clean toilets, build set, tear down, prop out shows and run the lights/sound for all show. And in the current show, I also am working as a character in the show (character is a stage manager, which works in with my over ll duties in the tech boot too).

All other people are contact per show. Actors, light designer, set designer, costume designer etc.

We do 6-7 shows a year and 8-10 concerts. We run about a 46 weekend schedule per year.

[Link: www.minersalley.com...]

[Link: www.minersalley.com...]

167 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:11:18pm

re: #152 reloadingisnotahobby

Ouch!!
But did he have his knee in your chest??
Mine did...
Hope ya feel better soon Walter!
...Did you get pictures??
.*duck*

No, but I can get a DVD of my Upper GI and the colonoscopy if you want them. It's like Fantastic Voyage without Rachel Welch.

168 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:11:37pm

re: #160 reloadingisnotahobby

I was one of those kids that read N.G. from cover to cover
as soon as ot fell thru the mail slot!
My grandmother had bound volumes from 1908 to present!
The collector value is zero!
Only the Ads in the mag are collectable!
Unbelievable source for research!
WTF is all I can think!

Hey reloading! That's cause while you was reading really informative cool stuff and getting all smart and stuff - I was wasting all my time and money on these:

Classics Illustrated

And I've still got almost all of them, and most in mint condition.

169 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:11:42pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

CONTRACT per show (not contact).

170 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #165 recusancy

A major challenge will be to get the best and the brightest to choose engineering and science over wall street.

We actually need "best and brightest" at both. What we do have to do is make the sciences more attractive as a career path.
Suggested start is showing when/ where/ how cutting edge technology is at in energy, transportation, pharmaceuticals, et al

171 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:11:55pm

Sarah Palin did not descend from just any old monkey. She's the daughter of one of the monkeys that flew out of my butt back when Ronald Reagan was beatified.

172 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:12:05pm

re: #159 freetoken

Just a reminder about the American populace and science:

Half this nation does not accept evolution as being true.

About a third believe the Earth is 10,000 years old or younger.

President Obama is underestimating the challenge.

Then there is the prevalent celebrity culture were a large number of children want to grow up to become a wealthy pop singer. There's always this tendency in our population to put wealth before education -- even if they have no significant talent to speak of in the case of music. So instead of hearing "I want to grow up to be a scientist" we hear "I want to grow up to be famous." The decline is noted in both science and engineering.

173 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:12:10pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

No, but I can get a DVD of my Upper GI and the colonoscopy if you want them. It's like Fantastic Voyage without Rachel Welch.

No shit?

///

174 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:12:43pm

re: #161 imp_62

Meh. After 2012, it won't make a difference what people think, anyway.


Well, if you are going to go all doomer on us...


Is global warming unstoppable?

"The problem is that, in order to stabilize emissions, not even reduce them, we have to switch to non-carbonized energy sources at a rate about 2.1 percent per year. That comes out to almost one new nuclear power plant per day."

"If society invests sufficient resources into alternative and new, non-carbon energy supplies, then perhaps it can continue growing without increasing global warming," Garrett says.

Does Garrett fear global warming deniers will use his work to justify inaction?

"No," he says. "Ultimately, it's not clear that policy decisions have the capacity to change the future course of civilization."

175 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:13:25pm

re: #165 recusancy

A major challenge will be to get the best and the brightest to choose engineering and science over wall street.

/maybe the best and the brightest, are bright enough to figure out what they want on their own?

176 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:13:36pm

re: #173 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No shit?

///

They couldn't fine any.

177 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:13:58pm

re: #171 Cato the Elder

Sarah Palin did not descend from just any old monkey. She's the daughter of one of the monkeys that flew out of my butt back when Ronald Reagan was beatified.

You were at the ceremony?

178 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:14:00pm

re: #174 freetoken

Nice link. Thanks.

179 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:14:00pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton


All other people are contact per show. Actors, light designer, set designer, costume designer etc.

We do 6-7 shows a year and 8-10 concerts. We run about a 46 weekend schedule per year.

[Link: www.minersalley.com...]

[Link: www.minersalley.com...]

I adored working in live theater, and I am happy any time I see it kept alive during modern times. Kudos for your work on it.

Nothing is the same as live theater. Nothing can replace it.

180 Yashmak  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:14:17pm

Alert the presses. With these initiatives, Obama is doing something that I whole-heartedly support.

181 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:14:34pm

re: #177 Walter L. Newton

You were at the ceremony?

Watched it on teevee.

182 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:14:52pm

"How will the right wing react". Hm.

"SCIENCE BAD! SMARTNESS BAD! And for our Hispanic friends (because we have several and they even work with us sometimes) VIVA EL DUMB! NO SE CONOZCO!"

183 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

No, but I can get a DVD of my Upper GI and the colonoscopy if you want them. It's like Fantastic Voyage without Rachel Welch.

...Hope the music was updated...
Mine has the sound track from "Flipper"!!

184 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:16:36pm

Urr. excuse me. I WAS a professional scientist--with a good degree from a good college--I changed course and became a journalist and teacher in liberal arts--but I'm conservative--in fact, I'm probably now considered right of moderate. I am no Luddite and no creationist--it would be helpful to remember that there are close-minded individuals on all sides of nearly any issue one would care to name.
The scientist in me is still there; it won't. I still like evidence when someone waxes lyrical about their favorite hobby horse. Science is not an exact science (yes, I meant to say that)--no no no. Scientific method, of course, is NOT the same thing as "science." Scientists must be practical and skeptical; realistic yet imaginative; conservative yet curious. They must not jump on bandwagons. Bandwagons are like jumping onto conclusions--you can break your neck--that part of your body that connects the doing with the thinking. I am lucky that both my grandfather and my mother were doctors and my father was a geologist. My grandmother was a musician--but she was also an amateur lepidopterist. I have always loved knowledge--which is all the word "science" means.
Children are born scientists--curious, in search of novelty and experience--it is school and the insidious and vapid programming of television --like Sesame Street (yes, the Sacred Cow that it is) that has so dumbed down the curricula that it is mind-numbingly boring. For the past 40 years, schools have been on a cultural values, social engineering spree--we see the results. A lot of us are angry about this. Children, by the time they are 12, don't know why they are so restless--but it is really because their knowledge is full of empty calories--not enough energy to even light one fire.
I hope the President's initiative works--but I am not optimistic. This is a social problem, now, not just an educational one. The day I banned my daughter from watching the Simpsons (first season) because she was quoting Bart "Underachiever and proud of it..." was the day she turned 9. All the kids were watching this. She is a marine biologist now--in Australia.

185 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:16:39pm

re: #178 imp_62

Please note that I do not necessarily agree with Garrett. I'll download the paper later and glance at it.

It's just that the "We're doomed anyway" feeling seemed relevant when discussing how a Democratic President is going to change the minds of YEC-America.

186 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:17:40pm

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Isn't it weird? I don't know how I watched it when it was out. It makes me so gd uncomfortable--like watching The Office or Curb Your Enthusiasm.

187 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:18:38pm

re: #175 brookly red

/maybe the best and the brightest, are bright enough to figure out what they want on their own?

No. Capitalism is eeevilll.

188 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:19:22pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

They couldn't fine any.

I had a colonoscpoy a few years ago due to a family history of colon cancer (Dad had a colostomy ay 34). The laxatives and pre-exam diet made sure I was clean as a whistle. Stuff tasted like dish soap.

189 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:19:27pm

Frankly, anything and everything that can be done to encourage science and engineering domestically needs to be done. It is a damned disgrace that so much of the intellectual and scientific heavy lifting that this country used to do is now handled by folk in other countries, or folk from other countries who studied here. Can't exactly keep the position of world leader when you have to import every damned thing, and that includes scientists, engineers, and even unskilled labor (don't get me started).

190 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

And I love A Child's Christmas In Wales. Dylan is close to my favorite poet.

191 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I adored working in live theater, and I am happy any time I see it kept alive during modern times. Kudos for your work on it.

Nothing is the same as live theater. Nothing can replace it.

Except a full time programming job, which is my first career. After working as a programmer for 25 years, I've been out of work for 5 years, only doing occasional contract work when I can find it, so I fell back on my second love. I'm doing the starving artist bit at 56 instead of 26.

192 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:20:07pm

re: #179 Obdicut

I adored working in live theater, and I am happy any time I see it kept alive during modern times. Kudos for your work on it.

Nothing is the same as live theater. Nothing can replace it.

Absolutely! We have an open-air theater on the river here in town. The stage is covered, as well as the rear of the seating area - the last couple of rows.

A number of years ago I played in the orchestra for "Gypsy". We had a terrific woman playing mama; she could really belt it out. The last night, a horrendous thunderstorm came up out of nowhere - just as she was about to do Rose's Turn. All of us in the pit were absolutely soaked.

We stuck our heads up, and there was the entire audience huddled together under the last rows, waiting for the show to go on. Liz came out on stage, we sat in the pit, and we played the rest of the show.

That's what theater's all about! Love it.

193 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

I'm doing the starving artist bit at 56 instead of 26.

Well, I imagine you're enjoying it a bit better now than you would have had you tried it earlier.

194 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #186 katemaclaren

Isn't it weird? I don't know how I watched it when it was out. It makes me so gd uncomfortable--like watching The Office or Curb Your Enthusiasm.

I've watched the first 2 episodes and its pretty surreal. Rover is freaking me out more than I thought it would.

195 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:20:50pm

re: #188 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I had a colonoscpoy a few years ago due to a family history of colon cancer (Dad had a colostomy ay 34). The laxatives and pre-exam diet made sure I was clean as a whistle. Stuff tasted like dish soap.

Enough already. Starting to sound like right bunch of old farts here.

196 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:20:54pm

The value of proofreading is inestimable:

"it won't". should read "It won't leave me alone."

197 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:21:20pm

re: #187 MandyManners

No. Capitalism is eeevilll.

but, but, someone has to fund those science & engineering projec... uh, oh. never mind.

198 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:21:54pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

Frankly, anything and everything that can be done to encourage science and engineering domestically needs to be done. It is a damned disgrace that so much of the intellectual and scientific heavy lifting that this country used to do is now handled by folk in other countries, or folk from other countries who studied here. Can't exactly keep the position of world leader when you have to import every damned thing, and that includes scientists, engineers, and even unskilled labor (don't get me started).

...and they will be our only doctors one day in the not-too-distant future.

199 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:22:07pm

From that Eurekalert link on AGW I just posted:

"I'm just saying it's not really possible to conserve energy in a meaningful way because the current rate of energy consumption is determined by the unchangeable past of economic production. … If it feels good to conserve energy, that is fine, but there shouldn't be any pretense that it will make a difference."

Douglas Adams has to laughing in his grave.

I'm re-listening to the BBC radio version of THHGTTG done almost 30 years ago - brilliant comedy.

Ford Prefect would be proud of Dr. Garrett.

200 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:22:32pm

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

Except a full time programming job, which is my first career. After working as a programmer for 25 years, I've been out of work for 5 years, only doing occasional contract work when I can find it, so I fell back on my second love. I'm doing the starving artist bit at 56 instead of 26.

That's rough. Have you read Neil Stephenson's book The Diamond Age? It's an interesting look at a possible future for theater. Both semi-scary and more hopeful than most.

201 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #194 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've watched the first 2 episodes and its pretty surreal. Rover is freaking me out more than I thought it would.

I'm uncomfortable just reading what you just wrote!!! Gak. I love Patrick McGoohan though (I think I've forgotten how to spell his name!).

202 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:23:50pm

re: #187 MandyManners

No. Capitalism is eeevilll.

Untrammeled, without let or hindrance, check or balance, it certainly is.

Le capitalisme sauvage is good only for capitalists. I am a worker.

203 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #190 Obdicut

And I love A Child's Christmas In Wales. Dylan is close to my favorite poet.

That's our Christmas show for 2010. Currently it's "It's a Wonderful Life; The Radio play" which is really fun, since it's almost the word for word dialog from the movie, done up like a live radio broadcast in 1947. There are 5 actors that do 125 characters and the stage manager character (me).

Here's a small review...
[Link: www.playwrightpriest.blogspot.com...]

204 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:24:49pm

re: #199 freetoken

LOL--so true!
BTW--the movie was disappointing, no? I did expect a better Marvin, didn't you?

205 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:24:59pm

re: #202 Cato the Elder

Le capitalisme sauvage is good only for les capitalistes sauvages. I am a worker.

Crappy franglais at not charge.

206 Locker  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #200 Obdicut

That's rough. Have you read Neil Stephenson's book The Diamond Age? It's an interesting look at a possible future for theater. Both semi-scary and more hopeful than most.

Great Book. Also check out "The Golden Globe" by John Varley, with regard to the future of theater, tv, movies, etc.

207 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #199 freetoken

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

208 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #185 freetoken

Please note that I do not necessarily agree with Garrett. I'll download the paper later and glance at it.

It's just that the "We're doomed anyway" feeling seemed relevant when discussing how a Democratic President is going to change the minds of YEC-America.

The article is part of an ongoing argument about the cost of reducing emissions. The reason it is seen as provocative is the danger of inducing inaction, as the economic cost of substantially reducing emissions while maintaining global economic growth is staggering.

209 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:26:01pm

re: #202 Cato the Elder

Untrammeled, without let or hindrance, check or balance, it certainly is.

Le capitalisme sauvage is good only for capitalists. I am a worker.

What? You don't enjoy competing against folk from around the world to chase an ever-declining wage? What are you, a radical or something?

210 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:27:23pm

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

That's our Christmas show for 2010. Currently it's "It's a Wonderful Life; The Radio play" which is really fun, since it's almost the word for word dialog from the movie, done up like a live radio broadcast in 1947. There are 5 actors that do 125 characters and the stage manager character (me).

Here's a small review...
[Link: www.playwrightpriest.blogspot.com...]

Walt--I wish I could see it! (funny, it's on radio--reminds me of Educating Rita). Took the little guy to see the theatrical version of War of the Worlds - radio program. It was good. He's nuts about this show/movie/book--has collected every single version, read the book, even seen the musical--the kid's now 11.

211 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:28:34pm

re: #193 Guanxi88

Well, I imagine you're enjoying it a bit better now than you would have had you tried it earlier.

Yea, because at the age of 56 I know I probably will die of something else before I starve to death :)

You make a good point. I've been working in regional theatre since I was 14, and basically doing it almost all the time, but it was never my only source of income, and a lot of time it was no income, that's the way of regional theatre and non-profit theatre.

But now I do it to actually help support myself, and I have 40 years of "training" now, which makes it so smooth. We operate Miners Alley so professionally, no egos, no "stars" no fights, it's just some of the best theatre in the state and if you saw how we operate behind the scenes, you would know why.

Our whole creative team has been doing this for years, it's so nice to work with this bunch.

212 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:28:59pm

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I've made it a practice with my kids to read anything I can to them and they've both taken off reading on their own. They are in first and second grade and already reading books for 10 and up. I let them pick books for me to read out loud for them and read along with. My youngest likes Sherman's Memoirs for some reason and my older girl likes Robert Jordan books.

We also make it a practice to read to our kids and believe strongly that is has fostered a love of reading and diverse literature. Starting at 5, we read chapter books together before bed.

The caveat with us is we centered our children in Waldorf Education which does not teach word decoding until the 3rd grade, instead focusing on story telling, story structure and comprehension. My eldest (11) is a nut for reading now and has a revolving set of books centered in fluff (Nancy Drew), contemporary fiction (she's crazy about the pendragon series) and the classics her old man makes her read - Jules Verne, Jack London, Mark Twain, etc.

213 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:29:46pm

re: #200 Obdicut

I must read that. Sounds interesting. I'm teaching an intro to drama course in the spring. Class is full--good sign, I guess.

214 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

Walter--behind the scenes--NOISES OFF

hahahhahahaha

215 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:30:28pm

re: #204 katemaclaren

The movie was such a disappointment, compared to the radio program.

216 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #200 Obdicut

That's rough. Have you read Neil Stephenson's book The Diamond Age? It's an interesting look at a possible future for theater. Both semi-scary and more hopeful than most.

No, I have it here, but haven't got to it yet. I've read Cryptonomicon and the 3 Baroque books this year, thats over 4000 pages. We have all his other books, so I'll get to it eventually.

217 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:31:07pm

C'mon, everybody! It's the new global economy. We don't need to train or educate scientists and engineers - we can import those for far less than the cost of a domestic one. We certainly don't need to pay carpenters and skilled tradesman well, either - there are hundreds of thousands with similar skills for available for far fewer dollars, at whose poverty and exploitation we are all too willing to wink and shake our heads. Same goes double for our unskilled laborers - who the hell do they think they are, wanting to earn enough to live in something approaching dignity? Millions from around the world can do their work for them.

In the new global economy, all Americans will be white collar information workers, whose skills will somehow be immune to out-sourcing, I'm sure.

It's a house of freakin' cards. A race to the bottom, in a global scale. Improvements in communications and logistics mean that EVERYBODY's job can or will be outsourced globally. Our chief industries will be government and financial fraud, if we keep this up.

218 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:32:18pm

re: #214 katemaclaren

Walter--behind the scenes--NOISES OFF

hahahhahahaha

One of my favorite farces. But the tech is a bitch and very expensive to do it right. It's one of those shows where the set itself can keep many theaters from mounting the show.

219 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:33:31pm

re: #215 freetoken

The movie was such a disappointment, compared to the radio program.

I loved the movie. It was sort of like "Dune." It was nice to see something finally make it to screen than nothing ever making it to screen. Both movies were lacking in comparison to the books, but it was still fun to watch IMO.

220 shutdown  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:34:51pm

Off to do the first of several soccer practice runs today. Toodles.

221 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

I love the Baroque series-- I'm rereading it for the seventh time right now. Just got to the original Jack and Eliza meeting again, which is very different when you know the long span their 'careers' will take.

Jack is one of the best characters ever in a book. The 17th century Han Solo in a world without Jedi bullshit.

What did you think that Stephenson was trying to achieve by having there be two Shaftoes in the Baroque trilogy who both share aspects of Shaftoe from Cryptonomicon? I felt that he was indicating that back in the 17th century, a person like modern-day Robert Shaftoe might have turned out either like Bob or Jack.

I love the "you beat him to death with a big stick" scene, too, where Bob learns tactics.

222 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:36:46pm

re: #212 Jeff In Ohio

I let my kids read anything they find interesting and work with them to understand what they've read, which was interesting when they decided to read the Security+ Certification Self Study Guide. On their own, my oldest is reading Neil Gaiman's Coraline and Stardust, my youngest is reading Alcatraz versus the Evil Librarians. This is on top of the books we read together.

Now if only I could get my wife to make progess in reading Eye of the World.

223 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:36:47pm

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

On an unrelated topic, a full run of "The Prisoner", original 1967 release, just came into my possession. Thats a wierd show. Good though.

Love the Prisoner. If you ever get a chance, Pinky and the Brain (Animaniacs) did a send up on the Prisoner where they were hats instead of numbers. It also involved BAAB (ABBA), a dance named the Hurshkohooven (my phonetic attempt at spelling) Bill Clinton, a hamster named Snowball and of course, an attempt to take over the world!!!

224 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:39:14pm

re: #222 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I let my kids read anything they find interesting and work with them to understand what they've read, which was interesting when they decided to read the Security+ Certification Self Study Guide. On their own, my oldest is reading Neil Gaiman's Coraline and Stardust, my youngest is reading Alcatraz versus the Evil Librarians. This is on top of the books we read together.

Now if only I could get my wife to make progess in reading Eye of the World.

Those are great books. If your oldest likes Coraline, (s)he should definitely check out THe Graveyard Book, Gaiman's other one. It is spooky!!

225 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:39:34pm

re: #212 Jeff In Ohio

GOOD for YOU!!! Don't ever consider Nancy Drew or even comics--as fluff. I read Donald Duck and Archie comics (not to mention Spiderman and Plastic Man--even Wonder Woman and Katy Keene)--but went on to read Dumas and Hugo (The County of Monte Cristo and Les Miserables when I was 13) Fluff--many times motivates readers to read better, longer, faster--and that builds SKILL--invaluable skill--not just in reading but even vocab and spelling.

226 Yashmak  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:40:13pm

re: #217 Guanxi88

We've been heading down that road for quite some time now. I count myself extremely lucky to be one of those few Americans left involved in an industry (aerospace) where we actually manufacture goods for the betterment of society. . .and I worry about how much longer the owners of the company will be able to keep the jobs in America's increasingly manufacturing-hostile environment.

227 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:40:17pm

re: #215 freetoken

The movie was such a disappointment, compared to the radio program.

Amen Brother. I a m s o d e p r e s s e d...

228 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:40:29pm

re: #221 Obdicut

I love the Baroque series-- I'm rereading it for the seventh time right now. Just got to the original Jack and Eliza meeting again, which is very different when you know the long span their 'careers' will take.

Jack is one of the best characters ever in a book. The 17th century Han Solo in a world without Jedi bullshit.

What did you think that Stephenson was trying to achieve by having there be two Shaftoes in the Baroque trilogy who both share aspects of Shaftoe from Cryptonomicon? I felt that he was indicating that back in the 17th century, a person like modern-day Robert Shaftoe might have turned out either like Bob or Jack.

I love the "you beat him to death with a big stick" scene, too, where Bob learns tactics.

Seventh time? I loved the books, but that's the true meaning of torture. :)

I wondered about the two Shaftoe's myself. There is a lot of "backward" mirroring between the Baroque books and Cryptonomicon. The answer I came up with is this... I think he was trying to leave it up to you to imagination as to who the "modern" Shaftoe's relatives were? Jimmy or Danny, or Bob and Abigail?

Who do you think?

229 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:41:19pm

re: #225 katemaclaren

Well, damn. I don't think there IS a County Monte Cristo, is there? A sandwich you say?

230 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:41:26pm

I'll see Beckalooza and raise you a Dobbsmania. Dobbs is thinking about a 2012 run for President.

Yoikes, and away!

231 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:42:48pm

re: #219 Walter L. Newton

I loved the movie. It was sort of like "Dune." It was nice to see something finally make it to screen than nothing ever making it to screen. Both movies were lacking in comparison to the books, but it was still fun to watch IMO.

I liked Dune--really loved the actors. The book moved so slowly that the movie was an improvement in parts.

232 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #230 lawhawk

I'll see Beckalooza and raise you a Dobbsmania. Dobbs is thinking about a 2012 run for President.

Yoikes, and away!

President of what?

233 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:43:11pm

re: #225 katemaclaren

Certainly didn't mean to use fluff as a pejorative. More Chocolate Kiss to Chocolate Moose. Each has their place, but most importantly their chocolate!!!

234 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:43:17pm

re: #230 lawhawk

I'll see Beckalooza and raise you a Dobbsmania. Dobbs is thinking about a 2012 run for President.

Yoikes, and away!

whoooah nellie! Now, there's a shocker.

235 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:43:21pm

re: #230 lawhawk

I'll see Beckalooza and raise you a Dobbsmania. Dobbs is thinking about a 2012 run for President.

Yoikes, and away!

I'm sure he's counting heavily on the Hispanic vote!

ummm, wha!?!?!?!
Oh ,, thats right !! ,,
//

236 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:43:43pm

re: #233 Jeff In Ohio

Certainly didn't mean to use fluff as a pejorative. More Chocolate Kiss to Chocolate Moose. Each has their place, but most importantly their chocolate!!!

what a SWEET thing to say!

237 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:44:15pm

re: #233 Jeff In Ohio

Certainly didn't mean to use fluff as a pejorative. More Chocolate Kiss to Chocolate Moose. Each has their place, but most importantly their chocolate!!!

...and good for you because they are from BEANS!

238 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #236 katemaclaren

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:44:45pm

re: #172 Gus 802

Then there is the prevalent celebrity culture were a large number of children want to grow up to become a wealthy pop singer. There's always this tendency in our population to put wealth before education -- even if they have no significant talent to speak of in the case of music. So instead of hearing "I want to grow up to be a scientist" we hear "I want to grow up to be famous." The decline is noted in both science and engineering.

So what we need is reality shows featuring scientists.

240 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:45:05pm

re: #236 katemaclaren

what a SWEET thing to say!

No problem , SUGAR
/

241 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:45:28pm

re: #238 Jeff In Ohio
that was a
==blush==

242 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:46:46pm

re: #231 katemaclaren

I liked Dune--really loved the actors. The book moved so slowly that the movie was an improvement in parts.

People put the movie down, but David Lynch's screenplay was the first one authorized by Frank herbert himself. If I remember correctly, Herbert had screenplays handed to him for almost 19 years until Lynch's, and he never like any of them.

He felt that Lynch came as close as anyone to condensing the most important parts of the book into a single movie.

I've written a number of adaptations of books to stage and I know how difficult that can be, to get to the meat without loosing the look and feel, and Herbert felt Lynch had done it.

243 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:46:57pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

So what we need is reality shows featuring scientists.

Mythbusters!

244 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:47:03pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

So what we need is reality shows featuring scientists.

When I was a kid, the sorta kinda royalty were the chemists and their kids. Lived by a huge complex of industrial chemical companies, and everyone looked up tot he chemists, but secretly knew it was the engineers who made the damned places work. Ahh! Union Carbide, Fike, Rhone-Poulenc, the names of great fiefdoms and empires where I used to live.

245 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:47:16pm

Bye everyone--got to get ready to teach a class of freshmen how to write objectively. sigh. I gave them their topics for this paper: light pollution or disappearing honeybees
They are illuminated--and excited and afraid! Good, I say. My job on earth is almost done.

246 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:47:18pm

re: #205 Guanxi88

Crappy franglais at not charge.

Actually, it's an established term in French sociology.

You need pay no attention. It's French.

247 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:47:18pm

It's ironic that in today's world -- with the Internet, with Podcasts, with courses available from MIT, all sort of resources are freely available -- that we still have so many people who are (imo) scientifically illiterate...It's a real shame..but maybe, in part, it has to do with the teachers?

Here's a lecture series by Richard Feynman -- he shows how lectures should be done...

248 Ericus58  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:48:14pm

re: #59 lawhawk

Sorry I"m late to the party, work thang and all... I enjoy your posts and thoughts, and finid myself agreeing quite often. I give you 'mental' dings for now ;)

249 comradebillyboy  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:48:21pm

As a former engineer and soon to be retired math and physics teacher, I can certainly vouch for the desperate need for better quality instruction in math and science. Not much positive will happen until elementary school teachers stop looking at math as a punishment. It would be great if the average elementary and middle school teacher were remotely competent to even teach math, but sadly a large majority are not. Until teachers are properly trained in these disciplines improving math and science literacy will be fruitless.

250 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:48:55pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

People put the movie down, but David Lynch's screenplay was the first one authorized by Frank herbert himself. If I remember correctly, Herbert had screenplays handed to him for almost 19 years until Lynch's, and he never like any of them.

He felt that Lynch came as close as anyone to condensing the most important parts of the book into a single movie.

I've written a number of adaptations of books to stage and I know how difficult that can be, to get to the meat without loosing the look and feel, and Herbert felt Lynch had done it.

Lynch's Dune was the only screen adaptation, to my mind. The rest were and are just crappy. He captured the weirdness that was the familiar of the whole Dune world. The rest either over-emphasize the weirdness, or try to make it all seem normal and familiar. It's both, and neither, and Lynch kept that tension perfectly.

251 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:49:10pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

I couldn't go without saying hello and YES YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! In England there are television series featuring such weirdos (smile)--even a detective like Sherlock Holmes serves the purpose of applauding critical thinking.

252 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:49:49pm

re: #231 katemaclaren

I liked Dune--really loved the actors. The book moved so slowly that the movie was an improvement in parts.

I WILL KILL HIM!

Sorry, just had to say it.

253 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:09pm

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

Seventh time? I loved the books, but that's the true meaning of torture. :)

I wondered about the two Shaftoe's myself. There is a lot of "backward" mirroring between the Baroque books and Cryptonomicon. The answer I came up with is this... I think he was trying to leave it up to you to imagination as to who the "modern" Shaftoe's relatives were? Jimmy or Danny, or Bob and Abigail?

Who do you think?

I think that he's implying that certain families have certain tendencies-- cultural ones. For example, Waterhouse in whatever incarnation never cares about authority, except to be afraid of it and fight it. Daniel and Drake are not so far apart, really. I think he's showing certain traits passing in a non-genetic fashion (given that the intermarriage with Glory doesn't appear to change the basic character of a Shaftoe) down through families.

Likewise, when Randy says, "At this point I'm just trying not to be totally humiliated," and Amy approvingly says, "You sounded like a Shaftoe just then, it's easy to hear that phrase coming from any of the Shaftoe characters, but it would be completely out of place in the mouth of a Hacklheber. I think it's significant that Randy considers himself one of the least smart members of his family, but that that lack of smarts-- just as Daniel felt both 'less' than Drake, his brothers, and his natural philosopher brothers-- and that feeling of 'less smart' drives Randy to go out and do things in the real world.

If you read Diamond Age, you'll find again there a concern for non-genetic transfer of cultural values.

So I think the modern day Shaftoe, Amy, is more like the Baroque's Bob Shaftoe, but, confusing, the WWII Bob Shaftoe is more like Jack Shaftoe.

I hope that approximates an answer to your question.

254 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:14pm

re: #246 Cato the Elder

Actually, it's an established term in French sociology.

You need pay no attention. It's French.

Who knew that all the latin I'd forgotten could still make a passable french?

Centurion with a head-cold.

Who is, the creator of the French Language?

255 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:42pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I WILL KILL HIM!

Sorry, just had to say it.

I set my mind in motion...

(I really enjoyed the David Lynch version of Dune, FWIW)

256 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:46pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

So what we need is reality shows featuring scientists.

This year on NBC: Survivor: MIT

Pitting tribes like The Physicists against The Biologists in a race to see who can build a nuclear powered Kia Sedona. Watch as the weakest scientist is voted off the campus each week. (Personally, I don't think the geek who repaired his glasses with double-backed tape and now can't get them off has much of a shot.)

257 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:51pm

re: #243 MrSilverDragon

Mythbusters!

Good one!

258 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:50:53pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I WILL KILL HIM!

Sorry, just had to say it.

He'll know, HE'll KNOW, that it is I, Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, who encompasses his doom!

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:51:17pm

re: #225 katemaclaren

GOOD for YOU!!! Don't ever consider Nancy Drew or even comics--as fluff. I read Donald Duck and Archie comics (not to mention Spiderman and Plastic Man--even Wonder Woman and Katy Keene)--but went on to read Dumas and Hugo (The County of Monte Cristo and Les Miserables when I was 13) Fluff--many times motivates readers to read better, longer, faster--and that builds SKILL--invaluable skill--not just in reading but even vocab and spelling.

Even Twilight. Amen.

260 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:51:26pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I WILL KILL HIM!

Sorry, just had to say it.

;-)

Now I MUST GO! Bye everyone.

261 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:51:53pm

re: #258 Guanxi88

He'll know, HE'll KNOW, that it is I, Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, who encompasses his doom!

Are you suggesting the Duke's son may be an animal?

262 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:52:40pm

re: #254 Guanxi88

Who knew that all the latin I'd forgotten could still make a passable french?

Centurion with a head-cold.

Who is, the creator of the French Language?


Maurice Chevalier !!

((hey ,,,when I was a kid he and DeGaulle were the only "french" I knew!!))

263 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:53:54pm

re: #262 sattv4u2

Maurice Chevalier !!

((hey ,,,when I was a kid he and DeGaulle were the only "french" I knew!!))

What about Marcel Marceau? (and to this day, I'm highly amused that he was the only speaking part in Mel Brooks' Silent Movie)

264 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:53:59pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

I agree. I also like Francesca Annis (it was her, wasn't it?)

265 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:54:16pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

Even Twilight. Amen.

Just attended a book signing last weekend where the author mentioned how he learned not to pay attention to what agents and editors told you. A friend of his wrote a book about vampires and the agent said to work on something else because the whole vampire angle was played out. 6 months later, Twilight came out.

266 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:54:43pm

re: #254 Guanxi88

Who knew that all the latin I'd forgotten could still make a passable french?

Centurion with a head-cold.

Who is, the creator of the French Language?

François Villon.

267 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:54:49pm

re: #263 MrSilverDragon

What about Marcel Marceau? (and to this day, I'm highly amused that he was the only speaking part in Mel Brooks' Silent Movie)

The question was about LANGUAGE !! The spoken word !! ,,,
gggeeezzz!!!
//

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #258 Guanxi88

He'll know, HE'll KNOW, that it is I, Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, who encompasses his doom!

I simply never got into Dune. I liked the books for a few years in middle school, well enough to read a few of them, but now I can't make head or tail of what they're supposed to be about, and they're pretentious as sin.

/all right, heresy

269 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:55:36pm

re: #261 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Are you suggesting the Duke's son may be an animal?

Let us say that I am proposing that he is not an animal.

(Great scene. Hell, the whole movie was great. When and if I grow up, I wanna be Thufir Hawat, but without the heart-plug.)

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:56:07pm

re: #265 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just attended a book signing last weekend where the author mentioned how he learned not to pay attention to what agents and editors told you. A friend of his wrote a book about vampires and the agent said to work on something else because the whole vampire angle was played out. 6 months later, Twilight came out.

Vampires are showing no sign of dying down.

271 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:56:30pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

So what we need is reality shows featuring scientists.

That might help but of course they would need to add some high science drama. I'm sure there's no shortage of that within scientific circles. I know there's plenty within engineering.

272 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:56:41pm

re: #266 Cato the Elder

"Where are the snows of yesteryear--where have they gone?"

273 Digital Display  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:57:12pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Vampires are showing no sign of dying down.

It's cause they have an endless supply of blood..
*wink*

274 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:57:19pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

I simply never got into Dune. I liked the books for a few years in middle school, well enough to read a few of them, but now I can't make head or tail of what they're supposed to be about, and they're pretentious as sin.

/all right, heresy

Paul is the Mahdi. Dune is the mid-east, the Spice is oil, the fremen are the arabs, Emperor Shaddam IV is the West. The Spacing Guild is the collection of oil extraction and refining companies.

That's the surface symbolism.. Think of it as Lawrence of Arabia, on acid, in the future, and on another planet.

275 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:57:43pm

re: #254 Guanxi88

Who knew that all the latin I'd forgotten could still make a passable french?

Centurion with a head-cold.

Who is, the creator of the French Language?

There's a scene in one of Sarah Caudwell's novels where two British lawyers are planning a vacation in Europe, and the narrator comments that one of them, who is convinced that everyone in Europe just speaks Latin with a sort of lilting accent and all the endings slurred, is considered to be the one who 'speaks the language' when they go abroad.

276 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:58:49pm

re: #272 katemaclaren

"Where are the snows of yesteryear--where have they gone?"

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

277 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:59:06pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Vampires are showing no sign of dying down.

Got to kill them with fire.

Actually, my brother and I are shooting story ideas back for a technological necromany series right now.

278 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:59:36pm

re: #274 Guanxi88

Paul is the Mahdi. Dune is the mid-east, the Spice is oil, the fremen are the arabs, Emperor Shaddam IV is the West. The Spacing Guild is the collection of oil extraction and refining companies.

That's the surface symbolism.. Think of it as Lawrence of Arabia, on acid, in the future, and on another planet.

OK, I get that much, but why on Earth or off it should I care? I don't LIKE anyone in the books enough to care if they live or die, let alone if they have weird visions.

And why did poor ol' Agamemmnon have to get dragged into this mess?

279 katemaclaren  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:59:39pm

re: #276 Guanxi88

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

Wow! Deutsch! I'll bet it sounds better in Italian, though.

Boy, I can't get unstuck from here today!

280 shmuli  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:59:42pm

". . . and curious to see how the right wing will attack these initiatives, because you know they will."

Mean and nasty, Charles.

Nobody objects to science and math education, that is why so much $ is poured into it, year after year. Why make such a charge when you full well know that the issue is not the teaching of math and science, but HOW/WHAT science and HOW/WHAT math is taught?

Yes, math can be taught wrong and it can be taught right. Throwing $ at a problem a pretty silly way to address a system that throws more money every year at the same problems. The frequency with which your Government, every 10-15 years, throws my taxes at raising math and science skills is the closest thing in existence to a perpetual motion device. The net effect is demonstrable and clearly visible in the steady drop in math and science scores over the past 40 years and the declining percentage of Americans choosing careers in the "hard" sciences. We call this a FAIL.

Those of us old enough to remember former presidents are quite familiar with the "push for science and math" literacy in nearly every new administration. All these efforts result in the sale of, omigosh, "NEW!" "IMPROVED" science and math books guaranteed, yes sir, to hold the interest and attention of the children and raise their knowledge and proficiency in math and the sciences. We will, of course, get more fights over the content of hugely expensive new books (fodder for the pro and anti-religious), new teachers will be hired (despite the fact that math and science are usually taught by those with no skill or background in the subjects) and we will happily go on our way confident that something was done on our watch.

What a joke. Just pour more $ into the corrupt educational system. Yeah Charles, let's get out in front on this and blame the right wing, after all, they are the only ones who want something for their money.

281 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:01:05pm

re: #253 Obdicut

I think that he's implying that certain families have certain tendencies-- cultural ones. For example, Waterhouse in whatever incarnation never cares about authority, except to be afraid of it and fight it. Daniel and Drake are not so far apart, really. I think he's showing certain traits passing in a non-genetic fashion (given that the intermarriage with Glory doesn't appear to change the basic character of a Shaftoe) down through families.

Likewise, when Randy says, "At this point I'm just trying not to be totally humiliated," and Amy approvingly says, "You sounded like a Shaftoe just then, it's easy to hear that phrase coming from any of the Shaftoe characters, but it would be completely out of place in the mouth of a Hacklheber. I think it's significant that Randy considers himself one of the least smart members of his family, but that that lack of smarts-- just as Daniel felt both 'less' than Drake, his brothers, and his natural philosopher brothers-- and that feeling of 'less smart' drives Randy to go out and do things in the real world.

If you read Diamond Age, you'll find again there a concern for non-genetic transfer of cultural values.

So I think the modern day Shaftoe, Amy, is more like the Baroque's Bob Shaftoe, but, confusing, the WWII Bob Shaftoe is more like Jack Shaftoe.

I hope that approximates an answer to your question.

No, I was really thinking who's was who's direct relative? Amy and her dad, who was their ancient relative... Jimmy, Danny or Bob and Abigail.

282 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:01:22pm

re: #280 shmuli

Wow ,, and that wqas your 50th post.

You were THAT close to being able to use your dinger!!

283 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:02:27pm

re: #278 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I get that much, but why on Earth or off it should I care? I don't LIKE anyone in the books enough to care if they live or die, let alone if they have weird visions.

And why did poor ol' Agamemmnon have to get dragged into this mess?

The family names, like the religions, the languages, and all the rest of it, are all our legacy to these future generations. In sci-fi, we forget that we're still dealing, for the most part, with humans just like us. These patterns repeat over time. Perhaps, in some future version, the patterns are easier to understand and recognize once we strip them away from their modern contexts.

Eh, it's a great story, even if the characters are all a bit flat.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:02:44pm

re: #280 shmuli

Well, someone is crabby.

285 Digital Display  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:02:44pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

Wow ,, and that wqas your 50th post.

You were THAT close to being able to use your dinger!!

I say never drink on your 50th post..
Nothing good will come out of it

286 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:04:13pm

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

No, I was really thinking who's was who's direct relative? Amy and her dad, who was their ancient relative... Jimmy, Danny or Bob and Abigail.

Oh, sorry, simpler question. I think it's got to be Jimmy or Danny based on the information given about the various movement of Shaftoe sub-clans in America, plus the strong possibility that Abigail is barren due to syphilis contracted from her bastard owners.

If Bob has children floating around, they would have been from Eliza, I believe, though he can't be certain any of her children are his, he can suspect.

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:04:13pm

re: #283 Guanxi88

The family names, like the religions, the languages, and all the rest of it, are all our legacy to these future generations. In sci-fi, we forget that we're still dealing, for the most part, with humans just like us. These patterns repeat over time. Perhaps, in some future version, the patterns are easier to understand and recognize once we strip them away from their modern contexts.

Eh, it's a great story, even if the characters are all a bit flat.

Not my kind of thing at all, at all.

288 Truth Stick  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:05:02pm

I hope that they will learn this batch of math and science better than the last. It doesn't seem our kids are learning much math and science these days, so maybe we can catch up with the rest of the world.

289 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:05:15pm

re: #285 HoosierHoops

I say never drink on your 50th post..
Nothing good will come out of it

Wait till you see how rip roaring plastered I am when I hit 25K

(should be sometime this week, btw)

290 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:05:54pm

re: #276 Guanxi88

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

Wo sie hat, die gegangen werden?

291 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:06:11pm

re: #272 katemaclaren

"Where are the snows of yesteryear--where have they gone?"

re: #276 Guanxi88

Wo ist der Schnee vom vergangenen Jahr?

Villon was a dirty old man after my own heart:

Dictes moy ou n'en quel pays
Est Flora le belle Romaine
Archipiades, ne Thaïs,
Qui fut sa cousine germaine,
Echo parlant quant ruyt ou maire
Dessus riviè ou sus estan,
Que beaultè ot trop plus qu'humaine.

Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan?"

Tell me from where I could entice
Flora the famous Roman whore,
or Archipiada or Thaïs
who they say was just as fair;
or Echo answering everywhere
across stream and pool and mere,
whose beauty was like none before -
where are the snows of yesteryear?

292 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:06:42pm

re: #290 Naso Tang

Germglish?

293 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:07:06pm

Charles--if I am logged in at two addresses it's because the kids have the other computer to play Music Ace and I can't even get on to log off.

(My fault; I linked music ace to ice cream bars.)

Reply to SFV: There IS a science reality show. It's called "Mythbusters."

294 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:07:56pm

re: #293 EmmmieG

Charles--if I am logged in at two addresses it's because the kids have the other computer to play Music Ace and I can't even get on to log off.

(My fault; I linked music ace to ice cream bars.)

Reply to SFV: There IS a science reality show. It's called "Mythbusters."

That high-speed camera one is pretty good scientifically, too-- Time Warp.

295 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:08:29pm

re: #289 sattv4u2

Wait till you see how rip roaring plastered I am when I hit 25K

(should be sometime this week, btw)

Nothing quite like an aged fine whine. ///

296 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:09:12pm

re: #292 Cato the Elder

Germglish?

No, free translation.com; the rest of the story.

297 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:09:40pm

re: #293 EmmmieG

Charles--if I am logged in at two addresses it's because the kids have the other computer to play Music Ace and I can't even get on to log off.

(My fault; I linked music ace to ice cream bars.)

Reply to SFV: There IS a science reality show. It's called "Mythbusters."

Is that Verboten?

I do that often at work because I have to be in two different rooms here at different times, so I keep LGF up on both (or several) puters at the same time!

298 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #296 Naso Tang

No, free translation.com; the rest of the story.

Just ask me next time - what you got there is gibberish.

299 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:10:11pm

re: #293 EmmmieG

Reply to SFV: There IS a science reality show. It's called "Mythbusters."

Originally, the show was supposed to be about getting young single women married, but due to one executive with a pronounced lisp, the show as we know it today was born.

300 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:10:12pm

re: #295 lawhawk

Nothing quite like an aged fine whine. ///

hehehe,,, it'll most likely be Vodka induced, however

301 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:10:50pm

re: #287 SanFranciscoZionist

Not my kind of thing at all, at all.

Look, I go in for Dostoevsky and Faulkner (a big shock, I know, such authors for one so sunny and optimistic as I!) but there's something appealing about a big sprawling archetypal romp like Dune.

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #297 sattv4u2

Is that Verboten?

I do that often at work because I have to be in two different rooms here at different times, so I keep LGF up on both (or several) puters at the same time!


I'm not tech literate enough to know if that would show me being logged on with two IP addresses, which would look very odd.

At least I know what an IP address is!

303 Digital Display  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:11:43pm

re: #300 sattv4u2

hehehe,,, it'll most likely be Vodka induced, however

You know it is fate that you'll be at work when you hit 24,999

304 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:12:34pm

re: #302 EmmmieG

I'm not tech literate enough to know if that would show me being logged on with two IP addresses, which would look very odd.

At least I know what an IP address is!

It's the place I go to the bathroom, right?

305 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:12:36pm

re: #302 EmmmieG

I'm not tech literate enough to know if that would show me being logged on with two IP addresses, which would look very odd.

At least I know what an IP address is!

A lot of people don't, and what's even funnier is when you bring up things like "IPv6" and get the glassy-eyed stare...

306 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:12:52pm

re: #303 HoosierHoops

You know it is fate that you'll be at work when you hit 24,999

and !?!?!?!?

///

307 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:12:54pm

re: #294 Obdicut

There's a few others too. Doing DaVinci, How It's Made, Stormchasers (all on Discovery), Naked Science (NatGeo), and Kaku's SciQ.

They're even rerunning Carl Sagan's Cosmos on cable tv somewhere (for what seems like the billionth and billionth time).

308 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:13:16pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

*Courtesy smirk*

309 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:13:50pm

Don't forget NASA tv. The realest of the real.

310 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:14:04pm

re: #305 MrSilverDragon

A lot of people don't, and what's even funnier is when you bring up things like "IPv6" and get the glassy-eyed stare...

Throw in terms like hexadecimal notation and subnet masks and they start drooling and scratching at their wrists trying to find a vein.

311 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:14:21pm

re: #280 shmuli

Valid points, invalid tone.

312 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:14:50pm

re: #310 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Throw in terms like hexadecimal notation and subnet masks and they start drooling and scratching at their wrists trying to find a vein.

There are 10 kids of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.

313 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:15:39pm

re: #307 lawhawk

There's a few others too. Doing DaVinci, How It's Made, Stormchasers (all on Discovery), Naked Science (NatGeo), and Kaku's SciQ.

They're even rerunning Carl Sagan's Cosmos on cable tv somewhere (for what seems like the billionth and billionth time).

And one of my favorites: Top Gear. (Yeah, I know it's more automotive engineering than pure science, but it shore do makes me laff!)

314 Digital Display  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:16:06pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

and !?!?!?!?

///

You'll have to post sober as a judge
And shmuli will post another crap post..
I like it when people start out with ' Charles you are so mean' I know at that point I'll be laughing alot at that poster...

315 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:16:19pm

re: #298 Cato the Elder

Just ask me next time - what you got there is gibberish.

You are right, of course. I didn't really think about it before a copy paste. Interesting how bad these advanced translation systems still are, even for such a simple sentence.

316 Ericus58  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:16:42pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

Wow Walter, sorry to hear you had such a ka-bummer day - hope the ride settles down for you.

But I must say, that was funny reading ;)

317 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #310 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Throw in terms like hexadecimal notation and subnet masks and they start drooling and scratching at their wrists trying to find a vein.

Look, that was just at that one meeting, and I've already apologized. Do you have to keep bringing it up?

318 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:18:58pm

re: #310 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Throw in terms like hexadecimal notation and subnet masks and they start drooling and scratching at their wrists trying to find a vein.

I had a discussion with my dad not long ago about hexadecimal, and he just couldn't wrap around the idea of a scheme that uses 0-F. Base 16 just couldn't fit into his base 10 reality.

319 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:19:49pm

re: #317 Guanxi88

Look, that was just at that one meeting, and I've already apologized. Do you have to keep bringing it up?

Until they finish the repairs and get the stains out of the carpet, you'll be forced to live with it.

320 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #318 MrSilverDragon

I had a discussion with my dad not long ago about hexadecimal, and he just couldn't wrap around the idea of a scheme that uses 0-F. Base 16 just couldn't fit into his base 10 reality.

Obligatory Tom Lehrer:

321 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:20:26pm

re: #319 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Until they finish the repairs and get the stains out of the carpet, you'll be forced to live with it.

Just like when I got the kids a dog. I know the drill.

322 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:20:42pm

re: #58 Conservative Moonbat

OT, Sorry if it's too early:

Former Sheriff Busted for Running Pirate Radio Station Airing Alex Jones

That's hilarious...a former law enforcement official breaking the law in order to broadcast one of the worst conspiracy theorists out there on his very own pirate radio station. Am I wrong for hoping that the FCC grounds his ass into a fine paste for this, even more so than they already have?

/what a f**king loon...

323 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:20:48pm

re: #314 HoosierHoops

You'll have to post sober as a judge
And shmuli will post another crap post..
I like it when people start out with ' Charles you are so mean' I know at that point I'll be laughing alot at that poster...

Actually,,, see #311

I agree with FVB

324 Digital Display  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:21:12pm

re: #318 MrSilverDragon

I had a discussion with my dad not long ago about hexadecimal, and he just couldn't wrap around the idea of a scheme that uses 0-F. Base 16 just couldn't fit into his base 10 reality.

True..16 base is a hard subject
But Subnet masks are easy to explain.. Just a filter on the IP range

325 Truth Stick  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:21:18pm

re: #313 subsailor68

And one of my favorites: Top Gear. (Yeah, I know it's more automotive engineering than pure science, but it shore do makes me laff!)

Top Gear is great, I wish we'd get more of that over here. I like watch the tv, much better than having to download the torrent and watch it on the computer.

326 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:21:27pm

re: #315 Naso Tang

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

327 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:21:52pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

Fellow goes to the dentist...

Fellow, "What would you charge me to take out this tooth?"
Dentist, "Two hundred and fifty dollars."
Fellow, "How long does it take?"
Dentist, "About a half a second."
Fellow, "So you charge $250.00 for a half a second's work?"
Dentist, "Well, if you'd like; and can pull it reeeaaal slow."

328 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:22:05pm

re: #326 Jeff In Ohio

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

Please to be restful, the eraser proceeds cautiously.

329 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:22:15pm

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, someone is crabby.

Oh he's beyond crabby...

330 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:22:38pm

Speaking of capitalism, I just got my butt handed to me by The Kid in a game of Spongebob Squarepants Monopoly. He ended up owning all but five properties and all the utilities, several Krusty Krabs (hotels) and just about all the pineapples (houses). And, he had about $2,000.00 in cash. You should've heard him cackle everytime I had to pay him rent.

Never again will I hold back when playing a game with him.

331 lawhawk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:22:47pm

re: #313 subsailor68

I'd also throw in Alton Brown's Good Eats, which has a dash of science to go with a dash of flour, salt, and baking powder.

332 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:23:56pm

re: #331 lawhawk

I'd also throw in Alton Brown's Good Eats, which has a dash of science to go with a dash of flour, salt, and baking powder.

Good Eats is the only cooking show I like specifically because Alton is the Mr. Wizard of the kitchen.

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:24:00pm

re: #330 MandyManners

The games are afoot.

334 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #326 Jeff In Ohio

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

Book I read a long time ago had a street gang end up in control of an alien ship which had landed in Central Park. They almost blew up the computer when it had to translate slang into english when they broadcasted their demands to the UN.

335 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:25:00pm

re: #328 Guanxi88

Please to be restful, the eraser proceeds cautiously.

The banjo becomes angry at midnight.

336 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:25:06pm

re: #328 Guanxi88

Which I' ; Mr. to say

337 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:25:06pm

re: #330 MandyManners

Speaking of capitalism, I just got my butt handed to me by The Kid in a game of Spongebob Squarepants Monopoly. He ended up owning all but five properties and all the utilities, several Krusty Krabs (hotels) and just about all the pineapples (houses). And, he had about $2,000.00 in cash. You should've heard him cackle everytime I had to pay him rent.

Never again will I hold back when playing a game with him.

LOL...next time, go for the throat (as it were)!

;-P

338 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:25:36pm

re: #330 MandyManners

Speaking of capitalism, I just got my butt handed to me by The Kid in a game of Spongebob Squarepants Monopoly. He ended up owning all but five properties and all the utilities, several Krusty Krabs (hotels) and just about all the pineapples (houses). And, he had about $2,000.00 in cash. You should've heard him cackle everytime I had to pay him rent.

Never again will I hold back when playing a game with him.

True story:

Watching Spongebob with my #1 daughter about two years ago. Mr. Krabs is chasing a coin that has gone rolling down the street.

#1 daughter giggles, says "mr. Krabs is funny."

I express my agreement.

#1 daughter goes on "And he's cheap."

I agree with this observation.

"Mr. Krabs is cheap like you, daddy." Angelic titters of laughter.

I chuckle. "Who told you that?"

She gave up my mother-in-law as the author of that particular calumny.

339 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:26:03pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

Good Eats is the only cooking show I like specifically because Alton is the Mr. Wizard of the kitchen.

Love Alton Brown...also like Bobby Flay's Throwdown.

340 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:26:28pm

re: #330 MandyManners

Speaking of capitalism, I just got my butt handed to me by The Kid in a game of Spongebob Squarepants Monopoly. He ended up owning all but five properties and all the utilities, several Krusty Krabs (hotels) and just about all the pineapples (houses). And, he had about $2,000.00 in cash. You should've heard him cackle everytime I had to pay him rent.

Never again will I hold back when playing a game with him.

Just plaster them from the get go. That way, they'll feel they are improving.

341 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:26:34pm

re: #337 talon_262

LOL...next time, go for the throat (as it were)!

;-P

I always won at Candyland!

342 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:27:05pm

re: #338 Guanxi88

True story:

Watching Spongebob with my #1 daughter about two years ago. Mr. Krabs is chasing a coin that has gone rolling down the street.

#1 daughter giggles, says "mr. Krabs is funny."

I express my agreement.

#1 daughter goes on "And he's cheap."

I agree with this observation.

"Mr. Krabs is cheap like you, daddy." Angelic titters of laughter.

I chuckle. "Who told you that?"

She gave up my mother-in-law as the author of that particular calumny.

MIL is lucky you didn't give her a piece of your mind.

343 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:27:29pm

re: #342 MandyManners

MIL is lucky you didn't give her a piece of your mind.

Got none to spare, having been so free in giving it out over the years.

344 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:27:31pm

re: #330 MandyManners

At least now you know he'll be able to provide for you in your old age.

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:27:44pm

re: #331 lawhawk

I'd also throw in Alton Brown's Good Eats, which has a dash of science to go with a dash of flour, salt, and baking powder.

I like Alton, because I can actually figure out the chemical purpose of the different steps, rather than taking it on faith that there's a reason to beat slow, or add things in a certain order.

346 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:28:01pm

re: #340 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just plaster them from the get go. That way, they'll feel they are improving.

He had a horrid habit of clearing the board and pitching a hissy when he lost at Candyland.

347 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:28:07pm

re: #331 lawhawk

I'd also throw in Alton Brown's Good Eats, which has a dash of science to go with a dash of flour, salt, and baking powder.

That is the one cooking show that makes any sense to me.

348 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:28:14pm

re: #344 EmmmieG

At least now you know he'll be able to provide for you in your old age.

"my son, the real estate tycoon." - It has a nice ring to it.

349 subsailor68  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:28:24pm

re: #331 lawhawk

I'd also throw in Alton Brown's Good Eats, which has a dash of science to go with a dash of flour, salt, and baking powder.

Ah yep, I like Good Eats as well! But, for my money, when it comes to chefs nothing beats

Gordon Ramsey Swears at You.

(Not safe for work though! Nor for those offended by language!)

350 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:28:42pm

bbiab

351 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:29:36pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

(America's Test Kitchen which airs on PBS also has scientific explanations for certain phenomenon observed in the kitchen -- and, they also have a testing lab which works with chemists, and cooks/bakers, etc., that's to explore certain occurrences/results, and then explain it through the use of science.)

352 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:29:36pm

re: #338 Guanxi88

It kind of disturbs me that Krabs is a crab who sells crab meat. (I assume crabby patties are made from crab.) Is he some kind of self-hating cannibal crab? Or is the show trying to reflect real marine life (crabs will eat anything.)

353 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:29:40pm

re: #338 Guanxi88

"Mr. Krabs is cheap like you, daddy."

NOTE TO SELF

Decline Guanxi88's dinner invitation if (s)he says (s)he'll pay!

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:29:57pm

re: #349 subsailor68

Ah yep, I like Good Eats as well! But, for my money, when it comes to chefs nothing beats

Gordon Ramsey Swears at You.

(Not safe for work though! Nor for those offended by language!)

My husband refers to Gordon as 'your boyfriend'.

355 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #325 Truth Stick

Top Gear is great, I wish we'd get more of that over here. I like watch the tv, much better than having to download the torrent and watch it on the computer.

I like the car reviews on Top Gear but can't be bothered with the laddish scripted 'adventure' sequences. That together with the lazy faux-joking anti-americanism that regularly surfaces on the show puts me off it.

356 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:30:20pm

re: #339 talon_262

Love Alton Brown...also like Bobby Flay's Throwdown.

Iron Chef America is another good one (and another one featuring Brown.)

357 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:30:20pm

re: #352 Mad Al-Jaffee

It kind of disturbs me that Krabs is a crab who sells crab meat. (I assume crabby patties are made from crab.) Is he some kind of self-hating cannibal crab? Or is the show trying to reflect real marine life (crabs will eat anything.)

The formula of the Krabby patty is the sole property of the Krusty Krab. No one knows what's in them - it's a driver of many of the plot lines.

358 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:31:13pm

re: #346 MandyManners

He had a horrid habit of clearing the board and pitching a hissy when he lost at Candyland.

My kids have learned screaming hissy's dont play well in the long run.

Of course now they are sneaky little gits.

359 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:31:15pm

The best Good Eats episode ever is Romancing the Bird- the Thanksgiving episode:

360 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:31:21pm

re: #352 Mad Al-Jaffee

It kind of disturbs me that Krabs is a crab who sells crab meat. (I assume crabby patties are made from crab.) Is he some kind of self-hating cannibal crab? Or is the show trying to reflect real marine life (crabs will eat anything.)

Actually, the secret ingredient for Krabby Patties remains unknown. Although it was rumored in one episode to be plankton, that turned out to be a ruse.

361 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:31:39pm

re: #330 MandyManners

Speaking of capitalism, I just got my butt handed to me by The Kid in a game of Spongebob Squarepants Monopoly. He ended up owning all but five properties and all the utilities, several Krusty Krabs (hotels) and just about all the pineapples (houses). And, he had about $2,000.00 in cash. You should've heard him cackle everytime I had to pay him rent.

Never again will I hold back when playing a game with him.

My 7-year old LOVES Monopoly. He likes to play the banker. We saw Anti-Monopoly at a store and he's very intrigued by it.

362 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:32:04pm

re: #357 Guanxi88

The formula of the Krabby patty is the sole property of the Krusty Krab. No one knows what's in them - it's a driver of many of the plot lines.

It it's anything like a Maryland crab cake, it should contain crab meat and very little filler.

363 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:32:32pm

re: #353 sattv4u2

"Mr. Krabs is cheap like you, daddy."

NOTE TO SELF

Decline Guanxi88's dinner invitation if (s)he says (s)he'll pay!

Dammit! I left my wallet at home. Sat, can you cover? ya know I'm good for it.

364 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:32:53pm

Sorry if someone has posted this already:

G.O.P. Considers ‘Purity’ Resolution for Candidates

No mention whether this included purity of bodily fluids.

365 Summer Seale  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:33:08pm

re: #63 lawhawk

Speaking of science, the LHC is starting to ramp up its power levels. It's expected to exceed Fermilab's Tevatron in power output 1TeV by Christmas (going to 1.2 TeV).

I just read the CERN report on the first collisions today. Check out the pictures:

[Link: press.web.cern.ch...]

(I get their reports on Twitter - awesome stuff).

I was over there a month and a half ago, really near where the LHC is. Didn't see it but if I go back in April, I'll probably see if I can have a look! =)

366 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:33:09pm

re: #348 Guanxi88

"my son, the real estate tycoon." - It has a nice ring to it.

But, "My son, the Donald." kinda doesn't.

367 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:33:22pm

re: #361 Gearhead

My 7-year old LOVES Monopoly. He likes to play the banker. We saw Anti-Monopoly at a store and he's very intrigued by it.

There's a board game about Communism?

368 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:33:46pm

re: #360 SixDegrees

Actually, the secret ingredient for Krabby Patties remains unknown. Although it was rumored in one episode to be plankton, that turned out to be a ruse.

It's chunked up bits of sponge!

Mwahahahaha...

369 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:33:51pm

My kids skipped the boardgames and moved straight into model wargamming. I was so proud when they were able to employ a base of fire and launch a counter assault.

370 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:34:27pm

re: #360 SixDegrees

Actually, the secret ingredient for Krabby Patties remains unknown. Although it was rumored in one episode to be plankton, that turned out to be a ruse.

Krabby Patty is people. That's true enough in some cases.

371 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:34:52pm

re: #280 shmuli

This mostly a private endeavor involving companies and non-profits.

President Obama on Monday unveiled a campaign intended to promote science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) education among children – an effort that includes about $260 million in financial support from companies like Time Warner Cable, Discovery Communications, Sony, and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

While the funding and commitments will come from private industry, the most public demonstration of the Obama administration's commitment will be an annual national science fair where student winners of national science, technology, and robotics competitions can showcase their projects at the White House.

SNIP

In addition, Time Warner will commit 80 percent of its corporate philanthropy to STEM.

Up next is Discovery Communications' "Be the Future" campaign. The cable channel has committed $150 million over the next five years to create STEM-related content, including a commercial-free educational block for kids on the Science Channel, and programming on the "grand challenges" of the 21st century. Discovery Education, meanwhile, will create interactive educational content for schools and teachers.

Sesame Street is celebrating its 40th anniversary and show creators have said that 20 of its 26 new episodes will have a STEM focus. Thirteen episodes will focus on science, while seven will focus on math. Also part of the $7.5 million investment is a partnership with PNC Bank for a pre-school math initiative called "Math is Everywhere."

Even the New York Times article linked above indicates it as such:

"Dr. Holdren said the initiatives, which are financed almost entirely by the participating companies and foundations and not the government..."

Do some research and try again.

372 Ericus58  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:35:16pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

It's called "The Big Bang Theory"... heh

373 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:35:41pm

re: #367 MandyManners

There's a board game about Communism?

If a game about Communism is anything like movies produced by the Soviets, there will be

no way to win
no amusement in the game whatsoever
you will go around and around and around
all play will seem random and unpredictable
it will last for 3 hours, although most players will slip out unnoticed at 1 1/2 hours

374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:35:58pm

re: #372 Ericus58

It's called "The Big Bang Theory"... heh

Sheldon Rocks!

375 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:36:55pm

re: #364 Obdicut

Sorry if someone has posted this already:

G.O.P. Considers ‘Purity’ Resolution for Candidates

No mention whether this included purity of bodily fluids.

Ms Prejean will chair the Purity Panel.

376 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:37:16pm

re: #326 Jeff In Ohio

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

Which makes me mention that I haven't seen TFK for a while.

377 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:37:45pm

re: #373 EmmmieG

If a game about Communism is anything like movies produced by the Soviets, there will be

no way to win
no amusement in the game whatsoever
you will go around and around and around
all play will seem random and unpredictable
it will last for 3 hours, although most players will slip out unnoticed at 1 1/2 hours

Oh, you saw the 1972 Solaris, too, huh?

378 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:38:47pm

re: #359 Sharmuta

You should send that to Reine for the garden/cooking links along with
Part2

part3

part4


We should have some Thanksgiving stuff up there and I don't really do Thanksgiving cooking. I fact I'm actually waiting to post a few recipes until after thanksgiving when people are eating normal food again.

379 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:39:18pm

re: #367 MandyManners

There's a board game about Communism?

It was designed by an Econ professor in Berkeley. You can either choose to play as a "Monopolist", which is like you play the original, or as a "Competitor" where you charge "fair" rent and use other rules that allegedly balance your chances of beating the monopolist (I see this as a game version of government intervention).

So, yes.

We haven't bought it yet.

380 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:39:24pm

re: #360 SixDegrees

Actually, the secret ingredient for Krabby Patties remains unknown. Although it was rumored in one episode to be plankton, that turned out to be a ruse.

Krabby Patties is crab re: #326 Jeff In Ohio

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

people!

381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:39:38pm

re: #376 Naso Tang

He has ceased to be. He is a former LGF'r. He is no more.

382 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:39:52pm

Oh that sucked.

Krabby Patties is crab people!

383 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:40:36pm

re: #326 Jeff In Ohio

If you want to have some real fun, translate a sentence into a series of languages ending back in English. Sometimes, when I'm bored (or stoned) and using the local musicians message board, I'll only post like this.

Hilarity ensues.

Well, at my keyboard, anyway.

There is the classic translation scene from I Love Lucy:

384 Summer Seale  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:43:38pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He has ceased to be. He is a former LGF'r. He is no more.

Gone to join the choir invisible?

385 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:09pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He has ceased to be. He is a former LGF'r. He is no more.

He is an ex-lizard

386 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:51pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He has ceased to be. He is a former LGF'r. He is no more.

I figured. I just did a search. I guess I was sleeping then; but he did make an impression. I like having some nuts around. Makes me tell myself I'm sane.

387 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:45:56pm

re: #386 Naso Tang

In the land of the blind...

388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:47:30pm

re: #384 Summer

Gone to join the choir snark invisible?

389 Summer Seale  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:52:13pm

re: #388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's okay. He was pining for the fjords.

390 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:52:23pm

re: #379 d

It was designed by an Econ professor in Berkeley. You can either choose to play as a "Monopolist", which is like you play the original, or as a "Competitor" where you charge "fair" rent and use other rules that allegedly balance your chances of beating the monopolist (I see this as a game version of government intervention).

So, yes.

We haven't bought it yet.

Fair rent? Isn't that dictated by the market? Oh, wait. It's from Berkeley.

391 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:56:08pm

re: #364 Obdicut

Sorry if someone has posted this already:

G.O.P. Considers ‘Purity’ Resolution for Candidates

No mention whether this included purity of bodily fluids.

Except for #8, and invoking Obamas name in 1 and 2, I see nothing objectionable about the other 9 "proposals"

392 Ericus58  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:03:40pm

re: #369 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

good stuff, indeed.

I remember seeing Panzerblitz by Avalon Hill one afternoon at the after school chess club (yeah, I was geek) back in '76... my world changed...

393 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:03:49pm

re: #391 sattv4u2

Except for #8, and invoking Obamas name in 1 and 2, I see nothing objectionable about the other 9 "proposals"

Does that mean you want nobody running for the GOP unless they accept all 10?

394 Ericus58  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:04:30pm

re: #374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sheldon is the reason my wife and I watch :)

395 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:06:58pm

re: #393 Obdicut

Does that mean you want nobody running for the GOP unless they accept all 10?

But that isn't what the article states.

396 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:08:08pm

re: #393 Obdicut

Does that mean you want nobody running for the GOP unless they accept all 10?

Where did I say that?

I don't 'mandate' my thoughts on others. If it came down to one candidate agreeing with (say) 7 of those things and another agreeing with 4, I would most likely vote for the one that agrred with 7 (albeit if he werent a child molestor, rapist, etc etc)

All I stated was that I,, ME ,,, see nothing wrong with whats espoused in 9 out of those 10 'goals"

397 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:10:03pm

re: #393 Obdicut

re: #396 sattv4u2

Where did I say that?

I don't 'mandate' my thoughts on others. If it came down to one candidate agreeing with (say) 7 of those things and another agreeing with 4, I would most likely vote for the one that agrred with 7 (albeit if he werent a child molestor, rapist, etc etc)

All I stated was that I,, ME ,,, see nothing wrong with whats espoused in 9 out of those 10 'goals"

Let me turn it on to you

What #'s are objectionable to you (excuding the snark at Obama in 1 and 2 that I disagreed with) and why?

398 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:16:59pm

re: #395 SixDegrees

But that isn't what the article states.

FTA:

According to the resolution, any Republican candidate who broke with the party on three or more of these issues– in votes cast, public statements made or answering a questionnaire – would be penalized by being denied party funds or the party endorsement.

re: #397 sattv4u2

re: #396 sattv4u2

Let me turn it on to you

What #'s are objectionable to you (excuding the snark at Obama in 1 and 2 that I disagreed with) and why?

I'm not a GOP member, so I'm not sure why my view is important to you.

But 2 is, snark aside, hypocrtical, since the GOP is not currently trying to get rid of medicare/medicaid/VA.

6 abdicates the civilian governments responsibility to direct the military.

7 is vague and useless.

8 is just reprehensible.

9 is the worst: (9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing and denial of health care and government funding of abortion; and

Health care rationing and denial of care already exists, and abortion is not connected to health care rationing. These should have been two separate points if they were being honest, but they weren't.

That one is the sleaziest and most dishonest.

399 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:18:15pm

So, sorry, SixDegrees, you're right, the GOP member could have only 8/10 purity and still get support. My apologies for saying they had to adhere to all 10.

400 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:26:14pm

re: #398 Obdicut

#2 is not trying to EXPAND a medicare/medicaid gov't run (public option) system, so no, it's not hypocritical
#6 just advocates the CIVILIAN in charge to accept the recommendation of the professional as every CiC has done in time of war
#7, vague, yes. Better than a call to war or worse, status quo and "strongly worded letters"
#8 I already objected to that one
#9 any rational assessemt of adding 45 Million people on day 1 to the # of health care pros we have right now MUST result in either rationaing and/ or waiting a very long time for care

Think of it this way. You favorite restaurant can tonight seat and serve 1000 people. With no addition to wait/ cooking staff tomorrow night (and every night after) 1250 people show up
Will you get the same service. the same portions?

401 ryannon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:29:18pm

re: #373 EmmmieG

If a game about Communism is anything like movies produced by the Soviets, there will be

no way to win
no amusement in the game whatsoever
you will go around and around and around
all play will seem random and unpredictable
it will last for 3 hours, although most players will slip out unnoticed at 1 1/2 hours

Have you ever seen Sergei Eisenstein's "Alexander Nevsky"?

Just askin'...

402 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:33:22pm

re: #399 Obdicut

So, sorry, SixDegrees, you're right, the GOP member could have only 8/10 purity and still get support. My apologies for saying they had to adhere to all 10.

Seven, actually. Disagreement on as many as three is allowed, according to the resolution.

That leaves enough wiggle room to accommodate not only all Republicans, but most Democrats.

Me, I'd toss out the ones related to social "conservatism" altogether - opposition to gay marriage and abortion - since such intrusions into private matters are not Conservative in any light. I'd also reword several points to make them more general, instead of appearing critical of this particular Administration. Criticisms of that sort ought to be derivable from party positions, rather than drive them.

403 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:34:56pm

Some guy takes a camera to sara palin book signing and owns

404 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:37:11pm

re: #400 sattv4u2

#2 is not trying to EXPAND a medicare/medicaid gov't run (public option) system, so no, it's not hypocritical

I'm sorry, i vehemently disagree. The text is:

We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run health care;

Leaving aside that there is no plan for government run health-care on the table, just health insurance, it is still clearly saying they oppose government run health care in general.



#6 just advocates the CIVILIAN in charge to accept the recommendation of the professional as every CiC has done in time of war

This is not true, though. Why do you believe it is? Rumseld alone gives a good reason for listening to the generals, but he certainly didn't do so.


Furthermore, the executive is CinC, but Congress is supposed to have close oversight in all war matters.


#7, vague, yes. Better than a call to war or worse, status quo and "strongly worded letters"

How is it better? One vague threat is pretty much the same as another.


#9 any rational assessemt of adding 45 Million people on day 1 to the # of health care pros we have right now MUST result in either rationaing and/ or waiting a very long time for care

But rationing already exists, then; those people are not being served, according to you. They have a ration of zero. That's rationing. Transplant lists exist. That's rationing. I can't just go demand an MRI because I feel like one, a doctor has to approve, and my insurance has to prove. That's rationing.

And, furthermore, it doesn't have anything to do with abortion, as I said-- that point should be objectionable whatever your stance on abortion is, for that reason alone.

But again, I'm not a GOP member. If these rules held true, I could never vote for a GOP candidate who held true to them. The question is, how many people could, in how many different places in the US?

405 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:39:14pm

re: #402 SixDegrees

Seven, actually. Disagreement on as many as three is allowed, according to the resolution.

That leaves enough wiggle room to accommodate not only all Republicans, but most Democrats.

No, it says "three or more". So, if you disagree with three out of ten, you get cut off. So, you have to agree with eight.


Me, I'd toss out the ones related to social "conservatism" altogether - opposition to gay marriage and abortion - since such intrusions into private matters are not Conservative in any light. I'd also reword several points to make them more general, instead of appearing critical of this particular Administration. Criticisms of that sort ought to be derivable from party positions, rather than drive them.

I agree. Moreover, the whole document is a call against things, to oppose things, not to do things. I know that the current GOP meme is that the less you let the government do, the better, but I do not think that it makes a good platform, or, more importantly, a compelling platform.

406 jordash1212  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:46:04pm

re: #119 lawhawk

AP lacks integrity compared to IB. More and more universities respect it for having rigorous internal assessment, whereas you can throw AP tags on just about any class as long as it claims to teach to teach the material that will on the exams.

I always enjoy meeting diploma candidates from around the world who endured IB throughout their years. More times than not, they are all bright and intellectually stimulated people. The kind of people who like to go out and learn. I find that IB did that to me, too.

I will admit that the problem with our public education does not lie entirely on curriculum or teachers, but also with the ability for the education system as a whole to motivate students to continue learning, not to just go through the motions.

407 jordash1212  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:46:39pm

...that will be on exams.*

408 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:45:29pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

The emphasis in our district is to now have the children reading by the end of kindergarten. My boy accomplished this. Now in first grade, they are writing their own stories and books.

409 prairiefire  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:14:16pm

Killed Da thread Again!

410 mich-again  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:36:12pm

I have volunteered in a science program in Detroit Public Schools for about 5 years now where engineers go into 5th and 6th grade classrooms once a week for a couple months and teach a program designed to get kids interested in engineering. I recommend that experience to anyone. The kids are great and it is a lot of fun doing a stand up routine for kids who will laugh at anything. And in every classroom you can find a few really bright but quiet kids that you just know would thrive in a more academically challenging environment. Those are the ones I really like reaching out to. The ones the schools ignore the most. The smart ones.

411 doubter4444  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:18:50pm

re: #280 shmuli

". . . and curious to see how the right wing will attack these initiatives, because you know they will."

Mean and nasty, Charles.

Nobody objects to science and math education, that is why so much $ is poured into it, year after year. Why make such a charge when you full well know that the issue is not the teaching of math and science, but HOW/WHAT science and HOW/WHAT math is taught?

Yes, math can be taught wrong and it can be taught right. Throwing $ at a problem a pretty silly way to address a system that throws more money every year at the same problems. The frequency with which your Government, every 10-15 years, throws my taxes at raising math and science skills is the closest thing in existence to a perpetual motion device. The net effect is demonstrable and clearly visible in the steady drop in math and science scores over the past 40 years and the declining percentage of Americans choosing careers in the "hard" sciences. We call this a FAIL.

Those of us old enough to remember former presidents are quite familiar with the "push for science and math" literacy in nearly every new administration. All these efforts result in the sale of, omigosh, "NEW!" "IMPROVED" science and math books guaranteed, yes sir, to hold the interest and attention of the children and raise their knowledge and proficiency in math and the sciences. We will, of course, get more fights over the content of hugely expensive new books (fodder for the pro and anti-religious), new teachers will be hired (despite the fact that math and science are usually taught by those with no skill or background in the subjects) and we will happily go on our way confident that something was done on our watch.

What a joke. Just pour more $ into the corrupt educational system. Yeah Charles, let's get out in front on this and blame the right wing, after all, they are the only ones who want something for their money.

And just who the hell are you to tell anyone anything?
"Your government?"
What's your government, tool?

You completely missed the point, not surprisingly.
And as for the snark at the end, well, take a hike.

412 bklynkid  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:53:02pm

re: #411 doubter4444

Well Put. The PC people would never separate the students by intelligence like it was back in the 40's.
No we all have to be the same... equality dumb down so everyone is equal. My high school, Brooklyn Tech, has dumbed down the entrance exam to get a more diverse student body. So we have students who can't read, do fractions or decimals, don't know geography etc,etc the school is now reverting to its original purpose and entrance exams. The company's involved in the pres program are doing it for self preservation.

413 shmuli  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 9:33:20pm

#411 Doubter4444

Wow. That must have taken some time to compose a response.

No, the point WAS that Charles used the story as a gratuitous attack on the right. You missed it.

Huh, never heard anyone talk that way? I'm no tool.
Perhaps you should work on your expressive language skills?

As for being snide, I am just giving tit for tat. Snide comments deserve to be treated the same in return. And yes, I do like to hike.

Glad to make your acquaintance.

414 Randall Gross  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:50am

re: #413 shmuli

You seem a mite sensitive in your conservative victim hood, if you can point to an initiative of Obama's that the right wing has not attacked from the lunatic fringe edges to the nearly moderate center, then I might agree with your comment.
I don't believe you can, and I think that Charles is just being master of the obvious when he states that he's curious about method. I am as well. Smart money says that it will start with the home schooling crowd who have made it their job to demonize all public education as socialist/atheist/gay indoctrination.

415 RexMundi  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:12:43am

re: #26 Merryweather

Fish suddenly sprouting legs is no more implausible than humans and dinosaurs coexisting on an Earth that's just turned 6000 years old.

I seriously doubt whether Palin has ever finished a book in her life, even the Bible.

Even her own book. Oh wait, she didn't write it, anyway!

416 Reluctant Democrat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:23:51am

I am an independent, not a right wingnut, and I would criticize it for the fact it's using $4.3 billion (I know, chump change these days) of our money, when we are in debt up to our eyeballs, to divvy up and give to nonprofits, media, academics, etc., whom they choose. Will politics possibly enter into this decisionmaking process? Ya think?

Let people keep their taxes and give local governments or even the schools themselves the right to determine what they need. Let Obama encourage it by words, not by spending other's people's money.

417 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:29:20am

re: #416 Reluctant Democrat

I am an independent, not a right wingnut, and I would criticize it for the fact it's using $4.3 billion (I know, chump change these days) of our money, when we are in debt up to our eyeballs, to divvy up and give to nonprofits, media, academics, etc., whom they choose. Will politics possibly enter into this decisionmaking process? Ya think?

Let people keep their taxes and give local governments or even the schools themselves the right to determine what they need. Let Obama encourage it by words, not by spending other's people's money.

Read the article again or more particularly this paragraph:

Dr. Holdren said the initiatives, which are financed almost entirely by the participating companies and foundations and not the government, complement the Race to the Top program of the Department of Education, which will dispense $4.35 billion in stimulus financing to states for innovative education programs.

In summary, these initiatives will compliment the Race to the Top program. It is separate but complimentary. And to repeat for the 3rd time or such this is an initiative largely funded by the private sector and non-profit organizations.

418 Reluctant Democrat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:33:05am

$4.35 billion is still $4.35 billion whether it's complimentary or not.

419 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:35:53am

re: #418 Reluctant Democrat

$4.35 billion is still $4.35 billion whether it's complimentary or not.

You falsely indicated that this science and math initiative was being funded by the 4.35 billion dollars when it is not.

420 Reluctant Democrat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:35:42am

That's a real stretch, Gus. You "falsely indicated" that I said it was totally funding the project when I clearly said that he was using our money.

This is a circular argument and going nowhere, so have a nice day.

421 Solomon2  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:01:26am

It looks like the emphasis will be on creating more scientists and engineers. However, since the end of the Cold War the demand for these disciplines has dropped precipitously, and the U.S. "advantage" of seignorage - being able to issue its own currency to pay its own debts - has moved manufacturing overseas.

As it stands today, Americans who choose the science or engineering career path may well find themselves poorer than if they chose to complete an MBA with a foreign language, thus having the ability to buy and sell things that America used to make itself.

If that's to change, the country has to get its act together and lower the deficit. Yet there is no prospect of doing so in sight!


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