Nontroversy Watch: CRU-Gate

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Environment • Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 1:37 pm PST • Views: 578

The Washington Post’s Andrew Freedman interviewed science historian Spencer Weart about the stolen climate science emails (known at the more hysterical blogs as the “scandal of the century”); Weart has a good perspective on the nontroversy.

Andrew Freedman: What effects do you think this will have on public perceptions of climate science and climate scientists?

SW: I don’t expect this to have much impact on public perceptions of climate and climate scientists. Opinions have become so fixed that it would take serious evidence to shift a significant number of people. Since the late 1980s, just about every year and sometimes almost every month, a group of people (mostly the same ones) have exclaimed, “Now in these latest (whatever) we finally have proof that there is no need to worry about climate change!” There is a segment of the public that has believed every new claim. The rest will continue to doubt such claims in the absence of truly solid proof.

AF: What do you think this story reveals about the conduct of climate science?

SW: Back around 2000 leading climate scientists talked to each other mostly about their science—debating one another’s data and analysis and negotiating travel, collaboration and other administration—and a little bit about policy. As time passed they have had to spend more and more of their time answering criticism of the scientific results already established, criticism mostly based on ignorance, fallacious reasoning, and even deliberately deceptive claims. Still more recently they have had to spend far too much of their time defending their personal reputations against ignorant or slanderous attacks.

The theft and use of the emails does reveal something interesting about the social context. It’s a symptom of something entirely new in the history of science: Aside from crackpots who complain that a conspiracy is suppressing their personal discoveries, we’ve never before seen a set of people accuse an entire community of scientists of deliberate deception and other professional malfeasance.

Even the tobacco companies never tried to slander legitimate cancer researchers. In blogs, talk radio and other new media, we are told that the warnings about future global warming issued by the national science academies, scientific societies, and governments of all the leading nations are not only mistaken, but based on a hoax, indeed a conspiracy that must involve thousands of respected researchers. Extraordinary and, frankly, weird. Climate scientists are naturally upset, exasperated, and sometimes goaded into intemperate responses… but that was already easy to see in their blogs and other writings.

RealClimate has an update to the story, with context for some of the issues that have been raised.

And Steven Andrew has a post at the Los Angeles Examiner with more information about the one email all the anti-AGW blogs are hammering to death, containing this quote about a “trick” used to correct data:

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e., from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

Andrew interviewed Michael Mann, the “Mike” to whom the email refers, to find out exactly what this was about:

Steven Andrew: You are the Mike referred in the quoted email correct? When was that email written?

Michael Mann: Yes, the email is from ‘99.

SA: Who wrote it?

MM: Phil Jones

SA: What does Phil Jones mean by “hide”?

MM: I think we expressed this best in the “RealClimate” article. Here’s an adapted version of the text: “As for the ‘hide the decline’, comment, I assume what Phil Jones was referring to was the well known that Keith Briffa’s maximum latewood tree ring density proxy data diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the “divergence problem”) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommend not using the post 1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while ‘hiding’ is probably a poor choice of words (since it is ‘hidden’ in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand the reason for the “divergence”.”

SA: What was the Mike’s “trick”?

MM: All he (apparently) meant by “Mike’s Nature trick” was us, in our original ‘98 Nature article, showing the instrumental record after the proxy record ends (1980). Since both records were clearly demarcated and labeled in our article, there was really no room for misinterpretation of what we were showing. So while it’s unclear exactly what Phil Jones meant, “trick” would appear to mean “clever way to deal with the conundrum” that the proxy record ends in 1980. The easy way out of that conundrum is to just show in addition the more recent data from the instrumental record. Again, in our Nature article, this was all clearly labeled and explained, nothing secret or hidden.

SA: Is this much adieu about nothing, again?

MM: Of course. This is about the climate denial noise machine trying to drum up a manufactured controversy in advance of the most important climate summit (Copenhagen) in years.

Indeed.

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1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:40:54pm

The story of the century!!! of the week.

2 eric  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:42:27pm

On some sites this is proof that the entire climate change industry is built on a scam from a few English scientists. This will wither on the vine in a week.

3 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:33pm

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Republican National Committee identifies ten (10) key public policy positions for the 2010 election cycle, which the Republican National Committee expects its public officials and candidates to support:

(1) We support smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama's "stimulus" bill;

(2) We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run healthcare;

(3) We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation;

(4) We support workers' right to secret ballot by opposing card check;

(5) We support legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants;

(6) We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges;

(7) We support containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat;

(8) We support retention of the Defense of Marriage Act;

(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing, denial of health care and government funding of abortion; and

(10) We support the right to keep and bear arms by opposing government restrictions on gun ownership; and be further

4 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:34pm

Thanks for combating this head-on, Charles.

5 Gitarzan  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:44:53pm

And the hardcore climate change "deniers" will still see a conspiracy in all of this...while I'm not as well-read on all of the arguments for and against AGW as I could be, I know enough to realize something's going on with the Earth's climate and it isn't necessarily good.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:47:08pm

Apparently I cannot run as a Republican. Oh well.

7 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:47:09pm

re: #5 talon_262

And the hardcore climate change "deniers" will still see a conspiracy in all of this...while I'm not as well-read on all of the arguments for and against AGW as I could be, I know enough to realize something's going on with the Earth's climate and it isn't necessarily good.

This is a great site for accessible, common-sense explanations of the science (lack thereof) and politics behind anti-AGW.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

8 rwmofo  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:48:15pm

The NY Times won't even touch this because there's nothing in the emails they can use to bash conservatives.

9 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:49:19pm

Now the deniers will analyze Michael Mann's account of what "trick" and "hide" mean and then arrive at an informed opinion on that basis.

/yeah right

10 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:50:42pm

I'm waiting for the ultimate convergence and for earth's climate to be labeled irreducibly complex.

11 Gitarzan  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:51:19pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Republican National Committee identifies ten (10) key public policy positions for the 2010 election cycle, which the Republican National Committee expects its public officials and candidates to support:

(1) We support smaller government, smaller national debt, lower deficits and lower taxes by opposing bills like Obama's "stimulus" bill;

(2) We support market-based health care reform and oppose Obama-style government run healthcare;

(3) We support market-based energy reforms by opposing cap and trade legislation;

(4) We support workers' right to secret ballot by opposing card check;

(5) We support legal immigration and assimilation into American society by opposing amnesty for illegal immigrants;

(6) We support victory in Iraq and Afghanistan by supporting military-recommended troop surges;

(7) We support containment of Iran and North Korea, particularly effective action to eliminate their nuclear weapons threat;

(8) We support retention of the Defense of Marriage Act;

(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing, denial of health care and government funding of abortion; and

(10) We support the right to keep and bear arms by opposing government restrictions on gun ownership; and be further

I read this "public policy position" statement as "GTFO RINOs and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"...they really want to spend some time in the political wilderness, don't they?

Uggghhh...

12 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:51:19pm

"(9) We support protecting the lives of vulnerable persons by opposing health care rationing, denial of health care..."

Nice strawman there.

13 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:51:32pm

A nontroversy based on a handful of people, a handful of emails, and all at one research institute. This would be like trying to judge the ulterior motives of the whole of the oil industry based on the correspondence between 4 people at Exxon.

Let the science work itself out and let the results fall as they may. To those that want to disprove AGW let them do so as the AGW proponents do -- with science. And this is not by conducting suspect pseudo-peer reviews such as those found at Watts Up With That.

14 Kragar  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:54:17pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

I can agree in principle with at least some of those statements, but unfortunately for the the RNC, I know the spin they want to put on them in the long run and the type of people they are currently grooming for support and leadership positions.

15 Summer Seale  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:55:12pm

It all has to do with the men in black helicopters, you see...

16 gegenkritik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:56:16pm
This is about the climate denial noise machine trying to drum up a manufactured controversy in advance of the most important climate summit (Copenhagen) in years.


Yes, it is the evil climate-denial-conspiray. Maybe they should hack some of their email-accounts to prove this.

17 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:58:45pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe some of those points are valid but overall it's just a cheap political stunt. I know Mitch McConnell (R) would have a hard time signing onto that "loyalty oath" considering he's one of the biggest pork spenders on the hill.

18 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:59:54pm

The hacking doesn't change the data. The climate is changing.

Over 100 icebergs drifting to N.Zealand

More than 100, and possibly hundreds, of Antarctic icebergs are floating towards New Zealand in a rare event which has prompted a shipping warning, officials said on Monday.

An Australian Antarctic Division glaciologist said the ice chunks, spotted by satellite photography, had passed the Auckland Islands and were heading towards the main South Island, about 450 kilometres (280 miles) northeast.

Scientist Neal Young said more than 100 icebergs -- some measuring more than 200 metres (650 feet) across -- were seen in just one cluster, indicating there could be hundreds more.

19 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:04:14pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Apparently I cannot run as a Republican. Oh well.

Neither can many "republicans" !

20 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:04:45pm
This is about the climate denial noise machine trying to drum up a manufactured controversy in advance of the most important climate summit (Copenhagen) in years.

I don't think anyone has to help drum up any controversy in advance of Copenhagen. Considering the wonderful job that politicians and governments are doing by backing away from the "we've got 50 days to stop this" meme, Copenhagen will probably crash and burn all on it's very own.

Copenhagen in my opinion is a prime example how politics can taint good science.

Just as much as we would like to keep the religious right out of science, I want to see the politicians stop using science as a tool for their won benefit.

21 oldegeezr  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:07:36pm
“...Even the tobacco companies never tried to slander legitimate cancer researchers.”

It would appear that Apple Computer has a different take on a smoker’s, indulgence?

They may have to choose between their Fuentes Gordos or their Platinum laptops...!

22 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:09:24pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

If you find a suicide note, you should take it to the authorities.

23 jaunte  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:09:36pm

Where's Cato? Is it really much adieu about nothing?

24 gegenkritik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:10:51pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton
I would rather see the politicians in Copenhage discuss other issues, for example the Iranian longing for nuclear weapons. If Tehran gets nukes, there will be definitely rapid climate change and warming in the Middle East.

25 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:11:53pm

re: #23 jaunte

Where's Cato? Is it really much adieu about nothing?

Of course not.

26 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:13:08pm

re: #24 gegenkritik

I would rather see the politicians in Copenhage discuss other issues, for example the Iranian longing for nuclear weapons. If Tehran gets nukes, there will be definitely rapid climate change and warming in the Middle East.

They've crafted a strongly worded letter. What MORE do you want them to do??!?!?!
/

27 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:14:15pm

re: #13 Gus 802

A nontroversy based on a handful of people, a handful of emails, and all at one research institute. This would be like trying to judge the ulterior motives of the whole of the oil industry based on the correspondence between 4 people at Exxon.

Let the science work itself out and let the results fall as they may. To those that want to disprove AGW let them do so as the AGW proponents do -- with science. And this is not by conducting suspect pseudo-peer reviews such as those found at Watts Up With That.

"all at one research institute " - you are flat-out wrong, the emails are from multiple locations. And from some of the key p[eople in the whole AGW business.

Please pay attention.

Two things are certain in my mind - these guys were trying to snuff out criticisms in science journals, and they have for years failed to produce some of the raw data on which much AGW theorising is based.

Scientific method ? Or deliberate and continued obfuscation - on the taxpayers' dollar.

28 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:14:27pm

I'm not worried 'cause a black hole's gonna' get us all first.

The world's largest atom smasher made another leap forward Monday by circulating beams of protons in opposite directions at the same time in the $10 billion machine after more than a year of repairs, organizers said.

The true test will be in first two months of 2010, when scientists plan to start colliding protons to see what they can discover about the makeup of the universe and its tiniest particles.

The Large Hadron Collider has been advancing faster than expected in its startup phase that began Friday night, said Rolf Heuer, director-general of the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known as CERN.

"It went much faster than foreseen," said Fabiola Gianotti, who speaks for the Atlas experiment, one of four major detectors in rooms the size of cathedrals about 100 meters (300 feet) underground. "We're all very happy."

It is possible that some unintended proton collisions began Monday or will occur soon at the places where the two beams cross as a side-effect of trying to synchronize the timing of two beams.

SNIP

29 gamark  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:14:29pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

The hacking doesn't change the data. The climate is changing.

Now there's a statement I can agree with. BTW, has there ever been a time when climate was not changing?

30 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:15:58pm

re: #29 gamark

has there ever been a time when climate was not changing?

August 11th, 1956

Bewteen 3 and 4 a.m. I remember it well. It was a Tuesday. We had meatloaf!

31 jaunte  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:17:53pm

This morning's Fox News report about this story was a classic example of a sneaky set up, as if there was a controversy to report, by allowing an author (Christopher C. Horner, Red Hot Lies: How Global Warming Alarmists Use Threats, Fraud, and Deception to Keep You Misinformed) to speak on one side of the issue and pitch his book, while the person representing the opposing view simply had to say this was simply a nontroversy. The segment left a strong impression that climate scientists were conspiring against the public in some mysterious way.

32 PowerFlip  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:17:53pm

What is the default tempature of the earth?

33 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:18:48pm

re: #24 gegenkritik

I would rather see the politicians in Copenhage discuss other issues, for example the Iranian longing for nuclear weapons. If Tehran gets nukes, there will be definitely rapid climate change and warming in the Middle East.

That doesn't make sense. Copenhagen is a climate change summit, that would not be the place for discussing Iran.

34 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:19:33pm

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

I don't think anyone has to help drum up any controversy in advance of Copenhagen. Considering the wonderful job that politicians and governments are doing by backing away from the "we've got 50 days to stop this" meme, Copenhagen will probably crash and burn all on it's very own.

Copenhagen in my opinion is a prime example how politics can taint good science.

Just as much as we would like to keep the religious right out of science, I want to see the politicians stop using science as a tool for their won benefit.

Maybe the anti-religious left should also be kept out of science.
Only centre-of-the-road, apolitical, agnostic scientists can be trusted.

35 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:19:38pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

0 k.?

36 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:20:10pm

I still think the science scandal of the millennium is letting a Christian run the NIH.

Imagine if that were the case at IPCC - σκανδαλον!

37 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:20:25pm

re: #34 Spare O'Lake

Maybe the anti-religious left should also be kept out of science.
Only centre-of-the-road, apolitical, agnostic scientists can be trusted.

You trust agnostics?

38 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:20:34pm

re: #27 JohninLondon

"all at one research institute " - you are flat-out wrong, the emails are from multiple locations. And from some of the key p[eople in the whole AGW business.

Please pay attention.

Two things are certain in my mind - these guys were trying to snuff out criticisms in science journals, and they have for years failed to produce some of the raw data on which much AGW theorising is based.

Scientific method ? Or deliberate and continued obfuscation - on the taxpayers' dollar.

These guys? How many people are involved? 12? You do realize that the AGW science has 10s of thousands of people involved including NASA and NOAA. And you're going to attempt to "shoot down" the whole of the global warming "movement" on the basis of these handful of emails which span a period of 13 years?

39 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:20:46pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

You trust agnostics?

I'm not sure yet.

40 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:21:02pm

re: #36 Cato the Elder

I still think the science scandal of the millennium is letting a Christian run the NIH.

Imagine if that were the case at IPCC - σκανδαλο&# 957;!

Huh? What's wrong with being a Christian?

41 swamprat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:21:04pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

700 degrees below zero.

42 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:21:04pm

ΠΙΜΦ: that last unintelligible bit should have read "skandalon" in Greek.

43 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:21:21pm

re: #36 Cato the Elder

I still think the science scandal of the millennium is letting a Christian run the NIH.

Imagine if that were the case at IPCC - σκανδα&# x03BB;ον!

Oh my goodness, you kidding. A Christian runs the NIH. What flavor of Christian?

44 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:21:59pm

re: #36 Cato the Elder

Schande!!1!

45 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:22:09pm

I always see these baptist and other christian hospitals, I always thought it would be amusing to have an episcopalian hospital. It would probably look a lot like that video of the homeopathic hospital, except even more useless.

46 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:22:16pm

re: #40 MandyManners

Huh? What's wrong with being a Christian?

In the eyes of many people - numerous letter-writers to the NYT, for instance - it disqualifies you from being a real scientist.

I was, as usual, being snarky.

47 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:22:48pm

re: #46 Cato the Elder

In the eyes of many people - numerous letter-writers to the NYT, for instance - it disqualifies you from being a real scientist.

I was, as usual, being snarky.

I couldn't tell.

48 gegenkritik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:22:57pm

re: #33 Walter L. Newton

That doesn't make sense. Copenhagen is a climate change summit, that would not be the place for discussing Iran.


Thanks for reminding me. And when is the "Let's prevent nuclear climate-change in the Middle East"-summit?

49 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:23:18pm

re: #48 gegenkritik

Thanks for reminding me. And when is the "Let's prevent nuclear climate-change in the Middle East"-summit?

2011 - General Election/

50 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:23:35pm

re: #49 Guanxi88

2011 - General Election/

Make that 2012. Let's give it another year
:)

51 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:23:47pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

You trust agnostics?

In science I trust an open mind.

52 Dona Quixote  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:24:07pm

There are a lot of people who claim that our educational standards started slipping when we "took God out of the classrooms." I think it started when we equated being a scientist with something dirty and deceitful. It reminds me of the beginning of a short lived science fiction series that began with the aliens "proving" all the scientists were corrupt. Remember when we wanted our children to grow up to be astronauts? Now in addition to claiming that scientists are all atheists is the conservative position that they are also materialistic and corrupt?

53 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:24:21pm

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

In science I trust an open mind.

I'm sure by agnosticism they mean the "celestial teapot" theory.

54 Dynomite  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:25:25pm

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Republican National Committee identifies ten (10) key public policy positions for the 2010 election cycle, which the Republican National Committee expects its public officials and candidates to support:

8 planks involve "WE SUPPORT xxx BY OPPOSING yyy"

I think the "Party of No" tag has never been truer.

55 Pepper Fox  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:26:15pm

re: #54 Dynomite

8 planks involve "WE SUPPORT xxx BY OPPOSING yyy"

I think the "Party of No" tag has never been truer.

Well when was the last time you voted for someone out of values, and not the "lesser evil"

56 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:26:24pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Oh my goodness, you kidding. A Christian runs the NIH. What flavor of Christian?

Born-again.

As are, technically, all Christians.

57 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:26:37pm

re: #52 Dona Quixote

Well, it's like this:

Scientists don't have to be atheists, but modern science is atheistic - it has to be, otherwise it's not of much use for the techno-material manipulation of Nature.

Science is materialistic - we lack a physics or mathematics of the unquantifiable; corruption is purely optional.

58 recusancy  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:27:09pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

Red Herring

59 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:27:42pm

re: #23 jaunte

Where's Cato? Is it really much adieu about nothing?

Ado.

60 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:28:06pm

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

In science I trust an open mind.

Thats messy. All that blod and grey matter all over the place

61 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:28:25pm

re: #59 Cato the Elder

Ado.

God Bless you

(use a hanky)

62 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:29:15pm

re: #55 Pepper Fox

Well when was the last time you voted for someone out of values, and not the "lesser evil"

Last November.

63 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:29:30pm

re: #58 recusancy

Red Herring

Actually, why?

To measure something as hotter, colder, faster, slower, brighter, darker there needs to be a baseline, no?

64 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:29:50pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

Depends how far down you dig.

65 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:31:44pm

re: #56 Cato the Elder

Born-again.

As are, technically, all Christians.

How do you figure that?

66 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:32:27pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Depends how far down you dig.

It gets pretty cold after the Wood of the Suicides.

67 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:32:32pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

How do you figure that?

When you become a Christian, you are born into a new life.

68 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:32:51pm

I don't believe that the earth is warming.

69 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:32:54pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

How do you figure that?

As I understand it, one cannot be "born" a Christian; the religion requires a conscious decision to accept it and its teachings. The same is not true of, say, Judaism.

70 recusancy  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:33:05pm

re: #62 MandyManners

Last November.

Me too.

71 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:33:24pm

re: #66 Decatur Deb

It gets pretty cold after the Wood of the Suicides.

Nice, very nice.

72 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:33:56pm
SA: Is this much adieu [sic] about nothing, again?

MM: Of course. This is about the climate denial noise machine trying to drum up a manufactured controversy in advance of the most important climate summit (Copenhagen) in years.

Except it's not. København, I mean. Any importance it might have had has been canceled pending the creation of something that might deserve to be called "the international community".

I don't expect to see that in my lifetime.

73 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:34:24pm

re: #66 Decatur Deb

It gets pretty cold after the Wood of the Suicides.

Yes. Few today realize that Satan is frozen solid.

74 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:35:36pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

As I understand it, one cannot be "born" a Christian; the religion requires a conscious decision to accept it and its teachings. The same is not true of, say, Judaism.

Makes my wife crazy, my habit of referring to people as "converts" to Christianity. I know some folk brought up Buddhist and so forth who joined churches. I call them "converts" and the wife says every Christian is a convert, and so the term is unnecessary and needlessly distinguishes them from other Christians.. Different cultures, different vocabularies, different underlying assumptions.

75 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:35:49pm

re: #68 spinmore

I don't believe that the earth is warming.

Good for you. Now, why not?

76 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:36:30pm

re: #71 Guanxi88

Nice, very nice.

So many different people in the same device.

77 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:36:44pm

re: #73 Cato the Elder

Yes. Few today realize that Satan is frozen solid.

Not quite solid. He's still capable of flapping his wings. And chewing.

I'm surprised there's no movie version of the Comedy yet.

78 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:37:37pm

re: #77 SixDegrees

Not quite solid. He's still capable of flapping his wings. And chewing.

I'm surprised there's no movie version of the Comedy yet.

It'd be mind-bending. It'd take Fellini and Lynch BOTH to even get started on it.

79 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #68 spinmore

I don't believe that the earth is warming.

Your belief has no effect on the truth.

The question is not "is the earth warming" but "can we do a damn thing about it if it is?"

80 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:37:43pm

re: #77 SixDegrees

Not quite solid. He's still capable of flapping his wings. And chewing.

I'm surprised there's no movie version of the Comedy yet.

Italian, 1911. Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

81 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:38:36pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

Italian, 1911. Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

That doesn't count. It's not in color. :-)

82 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:38:47pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

Italian, 1911. Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

No kidding.

[sound of hopes dashing against the wall]

I was all set to start work on a screenplay.

83 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:38:53pm

re: #81 SixDegrees

That doesn't count. It's not in color. :-)

And I bet the CGI is crappy, too.

84 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:38:56pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

As I understand it, one cannot be "born" a Christian; the religion requires a conscious decision to accept it and its teachings. The same is not true of, say, Judaism.

The term "born again" is not used by all Christian denominations to refer to a person who has accepted Christ. Event that term "accepted Christ" is not a doctrinal statement in many Christian sects.

You are talking about "group speak" and different Christian flavors have different group speak. If you were a Catholic and said that you were "born again," you would rarely ever be first recognized as a Catholic.

Catholics are baptized as infants, making no conscious decision about accepting anything.

"Born again" is far from some sort of identification badge that can be pegged on all Christians.

85 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:39:19pm

re: #81 SixDegrees

That doesn't count. It's not in color. :-)

Neither are Doré's prints.

86 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:39:41pm

re: #8 rwmofo

The NY Times won't even touch this because there's nothing in the emails they can use to bash conservatives.

They already did a story on it, one I linked to yesterday morning in a thread here. BTW they did a good job of just reporting facts without showing any bias or hyperbole. Believe it or not they do sometimes stick to just reporting the news without adding a slant to it.

87 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:39:52pm

re: #75 Varek Raith

[Link: www.npr.org...]

88 PowerFlip  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:40:10pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder
World yearly average surface temp...

89 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:40:13pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

Italian, 1911. Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

Here:

90 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:40:23pm

re: #84 Walter L. Newton

The term "born again" is not used by all Christian denominations to refer to a person who has accepted Christ. Event that term "accepted Christ" is not a doctrinal statement in many Christian sects.

You are talking about "group speak" and different Christian flavors have different group speak. If you were a Catholic and said that you were "born again," you would rarely ever be first recognized as a Catholic.

Catholics are baptized as infants, making no conscious decision about accepting anything.

"Born again" is far from some sort of identification badge that can be pegged on all Christians.

Stupid jargon! Just when I think I'm getting the hang of the 57 flavors of Christianity, I find out they're all using the same vocabulary, but squabble over the dictionary.

91 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:41:06pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

How much Kool-Aid did you drink ?

92 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:41:26pm

re: #84 Walter L. Newton

The term "born again" is not used by all Christian denominations to refer to a person who has accepted Christ. Event that term "accepted Christ" is not a doctrinal statement in many Christian sects.

You are talking about "group speak" and different Christian flavors have different group speak. If you were a Catholic and said that you were "born again," you would rarely ever be first recognized as a Catholic.

Catholics are baptized as infants, making no conscious decision about accepting anything.

"Born again" is far from some sort of identification badge that can be pegged on all Christians.

Actually Catholics are born again at baptism and confirmed in that new life at confirmation. That is when the conscious decision occurs.

93 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:41:33pm

re: #91 spinmore

How much Kool-Aid did you drink ?

Probably depends on how hot it is.

94 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:41:49pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

Italian, 1911. Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

Literate AND a TD fan. I may faint...

95 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:43:54pm

re: #91 spinmore

How much Kool-Aid did you drink ?

Fu ta cousine germaine.

96 jaunte  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:44:09pm

re: #91 spinmore

"can we do a damn thing about it if it is?" (warming)
seems like an eminently reasonable question.
No Kool-Aid necessary.

97 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #94 Gearhead

Grazie.

98 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:45:11pm

re: #90 Guanxi88

Stupid jargon! Just when I think I'm getting the hang of the 57 flavors of Christianity, I find out they're all using the same vocabulary, but squabble over the dictionary.

They are not all using the same vocabulary. "Born Again" for, let's say, a Baptist, is a doctrinal statement, separating those who have not made the "altar call" from others who have. You can attend a Baptist church religiously (pun intended), but you are not "born again" until you make the public testimony that you have accepted Christ as you Lord and Savior. Anything less than that not "born again."

And like I say, as an actual doctrinal point, the "born again" concept hold little or no weight in certain other Christian denominations.

99 simoom  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:45:53pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

Tangerine Dream just did a soundtrack for a new release.

Are they still around? :P

I still remember ordering the soundtrack to Legend, only to find what had arrived was some guy's score that wasn't used in the film as they'd eventually switched to Tangerine Dream (late in production). If I recall correctly he rants about TD's lack of talent in the CD's liner notes ;-P.

100 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:46:37pm

re: #77 SixDegrees

Not quite solid. He's still capable of flapping his wings. And chewing.

I'm surprised there's no movie version of the Comedy yet.

The BBC did one back when I was a kid, that was only okay. It was also only Cantos I through VIII.

Krzysztof Kieślowski was going to do a trilogy inspired by it. Died before he could. Sadness.

101 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:47:29pm

re: #99 simoom

Minute.

102 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:47:35pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

They are not all using the same vocabulary. "Born Again" for, let's say, a Baptist, is a doctrinal statement, separating those who have not made the "altar call" from others who have. You can attend a Baptist church religiously (pun intended), but you are not "born again" until you make the public testimony that you have accepted Christ as you Lord and Savior. Anything less than that not "born again."

And like I say, as an actual doctrinal point, the "born again" concept hold little or no weight in certain other Christian denominations.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:4

103 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:47:58pm

re: #92 Cato the Elder

Actually Catholics are born again at baptism and confirmed in that new life at confirmation. That is when the conscious decision occurs.

My point is they do not use the jargon "born again" as a doctrinal statement of salvation. I understand the concept of Catholic baptism and confirmation.

My simple point was, not all Christians use the term "born again" as a doctrinal statement indicating salvation. Not all Christians are born again. It would be like saying all pastors are priests. No, priest is a doctrinal concept which does not translate across all Christian denominations.

104 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:48:53pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

They are not all using the same vocabulary. "Born Again" for, let's say, a Baptist, is a doctrinal statement, separating those who have not made the "altar call" from others who have. You can attend a Baptist church religiously (pun intended), but you are not "born again" until you make the public testimony that you have accepted Christ as you Lord and Savior. Anything less than that not "born again."

And like I say, as an actual doctrinal point, the "born again" concept hold little or no weight in certain other Christian denominations.

This is why I wish the wife were a Catholic. I could get a coherent explanation of what was going on from one central authoritative body and be done with it. She's a protestant, and so I have only the vaguest idea of what they mean by what they say. There's no Summa for baptists, so far as I can tell.

105 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:49:02pm

re: #102 MandyManners

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:4

I'll repeat myself. It's a doctrinal point, a doctrinal statement, not used by all Christians (as suggested by Cato)... as I just answered him...

My point is they do not use the jargon "born again" as a doctrinal statement of salvation. I understand the concept of Catholic baptism and confirmation.

My simple point was, not all Christians use the term "born again" as a doctrinal statement indicating salvation. Not all Christians are born again. It would be like saying all pastors are priests. No, priest is a doctrinal concept which does not translate across all Christian denominations.

106 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:49:35pm

re: #100 Obdicut

The BBC did one back when I was a kid, that was only okay. It was also only Cantos I through VIII.

Krzysztof Kieślowski was going to do a trilogy inspired by it. Died before he could. Sadness.

Let's be realistic: if it's ever done, they'll only get The Inferno out the door. Nobody reads about purgatory or paradise; they want to hear about souls being tortured in bizarre and painful ways.

There's no such thing as Monday Night Badminton.

107 borgcube  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:49:37pm

Oh brother:

[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

108 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:49:37pm

He left yesterday behind him,
You might say he was born again,
You might say he found the key to every door.

109 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:49:50pm

re: #96 jaunte

"can we do a damn thing about it if it is?" (warming)
seems like an eminently reasonable question.
No Kool-Aid necessary.


IMO the 'question' is both.

110 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:50:19pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

I'll repeat myself. It's a doctrinal point, a doctrinal statement, not used by all Christians (as suggested by Cato)... as I just answered him...

My point is they do not use the jargon "born again" as a doctrinal statement of salvation. I understand the concept of Catholic baptism and confirmation.

My simple point was, not all Christians use the term "born again" as a doctrinal statement indicating salvation. Not all Christians are born again. It would be like saying all pastors are priests. No, priest is a doctrinal concept which does not translate across all Christian denominations.

I'm not gonna' argue what the Bible says with you, Walter.

111 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:50:50pm

re: #109 spinmore

IMO the 'question' is both.

Both reasonable and Kool-Aid-ish, or what?

112 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:51:36pm

re: #106 SixDegrees

There's no such thing as Monday Night Badminton.

Hoboken Public Access, Mondays at 11:55 p.m.

113 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:52:00pm

I think a lot of people on the right just fear people who are smarter than them. That's what's at the root of all the anti-science claptrap in so many different areas. Where some of us look at the fields of science with wonder and want to learn, they just shut down in fear.

114 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:52:16pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

My point is they do not use the jargon "born again" as a doctrinal statement of salvation. I understand the concept of Catholic baptism and confirmation.

My simple point was, not all Christians use the term "born again" as a doctrinal statement indicating salvation. Not all Christians are born again. It would be like saying all pastors are priests. No, priest is a doctrinal concept which does not translate across all Christian denominations.

You are wrong. All Christians are born again. The disagreements are over when that happens.

115 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:52:24pm

re: #106 SixDegrees

There's no such thing as Monday Night Badminton.

I think that's on ESPN8, the Ocho.

116 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:52:49pm

re: #104 Guanxi88

This is why I wish the wife were a Catholic. I could get a coherent explanation of what was going on from one central authoritative body and be done with it. She's a protestant, and so I have only the vaguest idea of what they mean by what they say. There's no Summa for baptists, so far as I can tell.

There certainly is... but since each Baptist assembly is autonomous, you can find some variations. And Baptist themselves are not just one flavor, you have different doctrinal statements between them.

Here is the Southern Baptist Convention statement...

[Link: www.sbc.net...]

117 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:53:34pm

re: #99 simoom

Are they still around? :P

I still remember ordering the soundtrack to Legend, only to find what had arrived was some guy's score that wasn't used in the film as they'd eventually switched to Tangerine Dream (late in production). If I recall correctly he rants about TD's lack of talent in the CD's liner notes ;-P.

Well now I have to go home and dig that out...

118 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:53:58pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

You are wrong. All Christians are born again. The disagreements are over when that happens.

So the phrase "born again Christian" is redundant?

119 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:54:33pm

I thought we were born again when we die.

120 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:54:46pm

Some people digging through the hacked / leaked material from CRU in the UK think that the emails are actually less serious than the indications that a lot of the data and programming at CRU is a total clusterXXX :

[Link: www.devilskitchen.me.uk...]

My bet ? Heads will roll at the CRU.

121 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:55:23pm
122 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:55:47pm

re: #110 MandyManners

I'm not gonna' argue what the Bible says with you, Walter.

I'm not talking about the bible, I am talking about doctrine, big difference. And I am not arguing, I am pointing out facts. The same facts that a Catholic and a Baptist would tell you about doctrinal differences.

123 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:56:24pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

I thought we were born again when we die.

Wait... what?

124 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:56:53pm

re: #111 Guanxi88
It's both reasonable to question the warming hypothesis
and
Whether or not there is anything that can be done to 'stop'/reverse it (and if there was would we want to) not knowing when the trend will/would reverse itself due to causes beyond our control.

125 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:57:46pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

You are wrong. All Christians are born again. The disagreements are over when that happens.

Cato, the term is not even used in Catholic doctrine. I am talking about doctrine, not your personal beliefs, not the way one denomination would view another, I am simple stating doctrinal facts.

[Link: www.catholic.com...]

126 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:58:21pm

re: #99 simoom

Are they still around? :P

I still remember ordering the soundtrack to Legend, only to find what had arrived was some guy's score that wasn't used in the film as they'd eventually switched to Tangerine Dream (late in production). If I recall correctly he rants about TD's lack of talent in the CD's liner notes ;-P.

TD put out the Comedy on 3 CDs a year or so apart. Only the first was on the released film. TD is down to the father and son, and add forces as needed.

127 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:58:38pm

re: #113 Conservative Moonbat

I think a lot of people on the right just fear people who are smarter than them. That's what's at the root of all the anti-science claptrap in so many different areas. Where some of us look at the fields of science with wonder and want to learn, they just shut down in fear.

Lefties don't have that problem because they admire all the folks who are smarter than them...all none of them.

128 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:58:40pm

re: #113 Conservative Moonbat

I think a lot of people on the right just fear people who are smarter than them. That's what's at the root of all the anti-science claptrap in so many different areas. Where some of us look at the fields of science with wonder and want to learn, they just shut down in fear.

And I think a lot of people enjoy and savor the idea that their political opponents are ignorant and moronic. Some are, but they're by no means the majority in any group, save in the League of United Ignorant Morons.

129 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:58:48pm

re: #96 jaunte

"can we do a damn thing about it if it is?" (warming)
seems like an eminently reasonable question.
No Kool-Aid necessary.

That also brings up an interesting question. If the matter is GW then it would be irrelevant if it is anthropogenic or natural if we are beyond the point of no return. Many scientists feels we have passed that point. Natural GW would also prove detrimental to the human species. This would be an argument for geo-engineering.

So it could be phrased: what if climate change was natural and would lead to the extinction of man how then would the opponents feel?

130 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:01:33pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

I thought we were born again when we die.

Does this mean I'll never get to retire?

131 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:01:37pm

re: #128 Guanxi88

And I think a lot of people enjoy and savor the idea that their political opponents are ignorant and moronic. Some are, but they're by no means the majority in any group, save in the League of United Ignorant Morons.

Anti-intellectualism and anti-science sentiments are not exclusive to the right.

132 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:02:54pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Fox: All 193% of Republicans Support Palin, Romney and Huckabee
Real? Fake? Satire? Spoof? Hoax?

Yup. it's real...
Fox Chicago's shows fuzzy math GOP candidate support pie chart

133 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:02:55pm

re: #128 Guanxi88

And I think a lot of people enjoy and savor the idea that their political opponents are ignorant and moronic. Some are, but they're by no means the majority in any group, save in the League of United Ignorant Morons.

While that's not what I siad, in the case of those who deny science in all its incarnations its not an unreasonable conclusion to draw.

I was speaking specificity of the tendency on the right reject intellectualism where the left is much more friendly to scientists and academics.

134 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:03:21pm

re: #128 Guanxi88

And I think a lot of people enjoy and savor the idea that their political opponents are ignorant and moronic. Some are, but they're by no means the majority in any group, save in the League of United Ignorant Morons.

Let's not bring the in-laws into this.

135 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:04:14pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

Anti-intellectualism and anti-science sentiments are not exclusive to the right.

Perhaps. But few on the left consider it a bragging point.

136 simoom  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:04:19pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Fox: All 193% of Republicans Support Palin, Romney and Huckabee
Real? Fake? Satire? Spoof? Hoax?

While that's amusing, following your link to wonkette and looking around revealed this:

Palin Man Appears, the Hero of an Exceptional Era

Video of the day? :P

137 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:04:28pm

re: #133 Conservative Moonbat

I was speaking specificity of the tendency on the right reject intellectualism where the left is much more friendly to scientists and academics.

The friendliness is there, so long as the findings of these scientists and intellectuals support and reinforce existing prejudices. Unique to no brand of politics.

138 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:04:37pm

re: #124 spinmore

It's both reasonable to question the warming hypothesis
and
Whether or not there is anything that can be done to 'stop'/reverse it (and if there was would we want to) not knowing when the trend will/would reverse itself due to causes beyond our control.

If the Allegheny River floods annually causing economic disaster, death and injury on a frequent basis do you install flood control measures? What about the Mississippi River? Or do we leave it alone and see if the trend reverses itself?

Then what about forest fires. Do we allow them to burn naturally or control them with fire fighting measures? Do we clean out the fuel elements to lower the danger?

Controlling or managing the environment is a common human activity.

139 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:05:47pm

re: #136 simoom

Heh. Painful to watch.

140 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:05:55pm

re: #138 Gus 802

If the Allegheny River floods annually causing economic disaster, death and injury on a frequent basis do you install flood control measures? What about the Mississippi River? Or do we leave it alone and see if the trend reverses itself?

Then what about forest fires. Do we allow them to burn naturally or control them with fire fighting measures? Do we clean out the fuel elements to lower the danger?

Controlling or managing the environment is a common human activity.

In California they don't clear the underbrush...or so I have been told.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:07:01pm

re: #140 rwdflynavy

In California they don't clear the underbrush...or so I have been told.

Don't have to. It's done for them.

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:09:26pm
143 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:09:48pm
144 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:10:25pm

re: #92 Cato the Elder

Actually Catholics are born again at baptism and confirmed in that new life at confirmation. That is when the conscious decision occurs.

Not quite. Catholic parents, when baptizing their children, are making a commitment to bring their children up in the faith. The child finalizes that commitment at confirmation. To the Catholic, conversion is a process, not a declaration.

145 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:10:32pm

re: #138 Gus 802

If the Allegheny River floods annually causing economic disaster, death and injury on a frequent basis do you install flood control measures? What about the Mississippi River? Or do we leave it alone and see if the trend reverses itself?

Then what about forest fires. Do we allow them to burn naturally or control them with fire fighting measures? Do we clean out the fuel elements to lower the danger?

Controlling or managing the environment is a common human activity.

Pollution control, contamination clean-ups, rehabilitations, levies, sea walls. We do what we can to keep our slice of earth clean and control what we can, though we need to do more, and technology will certainly play a large role. Hundreds of years ago, it would have seemed unlikely man would master diseases like polio, but here we are. So who knows what we'll be able to do in the future?

146 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:10:45pm

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

Cato, the term is not even used in Catholic doctrine. I am talking about doctrine, not your personal beliefs, not the way one denomination would view another, I am simple stating doctrinal facts.

[Link: www.catholic.com...]

Apparently two people can read the same exact page (I found that earlier in this pointless "debate") and see exactly the opposite meaning.

I have heard with my two ears Catholic baptisms where the term "born again" was applied to the baptized.

147 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:10:56pm

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

FBV,

I'm in Big Lick for Thanksgiving if you want to grab a beer at the Backcreek diner place. Email in profile.

148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #147 rwdflynavy

I can be there in an hour! heh...

my nic is blue

149 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #138 Gus 802
Well, it's my understanding that many well meaning flood-control measures (projects) have proven to exacerbate the problem of flooding on major waterways like the Miss R. Hence, the Army COE is now trying to 'undo' 100 years of 'flood-control' in favor of letting nature take its course.

150 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:14:03pm

re: #119 Sharmuta

I thought we were born again when we die.

We are, physically. If you choose to let your body rot or turn to ash, your body is reborn each spring as nourishment for new life.

151 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:14:26pm

re: #140 rwdflynavy

In California they don't clear the underbrush...or so I have been told.

Jaw-dropping stupidity.
Any idea of the carbon footprint of those incessant brush-fires?

152 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:14:44pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Pollution control, contamination clean-ups, rehabilitations, levies, sea walls. We do what we can to keep our slice of earth clean and control what we can, though we need to do more, and technology will certainly play a large role. Hundreds of years ago, it would have seemed unlikely man would master diseases like polio, but here we are. So who knows what we'll be able to do in the future?

As we know, not so long ago many people took the attitude that disease would have to be worked out or in many cases it was an reflection of ones morals, or fate. This was a rather fatalistic approach.

153 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:15:44pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

Jaw-dropping stupidity.
Any idea of the carbon footprint of those incessant brush-fires?

Monday, November 23, 2009
Controlled Burn Notices

State of Calfornia

154 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:16:27pm

re: #150 Jeff In Ohio

We are, physically. If you choose to let your body rot or turn to ash, your body is reborn each spring as nourishment for new life.

Death is not the end, it is a beginning. Thus a rebirth into a new life.

155 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:17:18pm

re: #146 Cato the Elder

Apparently two people can read the same exact page (I found that earlier in this pointless "debate") and see exactly the opposite meaning.

I have heard with my two ears Catholic baptisms where the term "born again" was applied to the baptized.

Notice that the term is in quotes on that page. And then they even go to some lengths to explain that even the translation of the term is open to interpretation.

I never even heard the phrase in all my years of Catholic training. And that was twelve years from 1958 to 1970 and a few retreats over the years.

The phrase has filtered in to some Catholic group speak, especially among the Charismatic Catholic Movement, and this is why you will find apologetic articles such as the one I link you to.

I read this as a gentle rebuff of the concept, which was never part of Catholic doctrine.

156 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:17:47pm

re: #154 Sharmuta

Death is not the end, it is a beginning. Thus a rebirth into a new life.

Not quite a circle, more a spiral turning slowly out.

157 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:18:22pm

re: #156 Jeff In Ohio

Not quite a circle, more a spiral turning slowly out.

Death is dead.

158 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:18:57pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Death is dead.

not very poetic Walter

159 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:19:03pm

re: #144 Jeff In Ohio

Not quite. Catholic parents, when baptizing their children, are making a commitment to bring their children up in the faith. The child finalizes that commitment at confirmation. To the Catholic, conversion is a process, not a declaration.

What part of this do you not understand?

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:19:32pm

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

I once visited a Catholic Church with a friend for Mass. Older lady next to me asked me if was going to start coming regularly. I said, "No ma'am. I am a Baptist."

She replied, "Oh, they make the best Catholics!".

Mebbe that's how it snuck in.

161 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:19:34pm

re: #118 Conservative Moonbat

So the phrase "born again Christian" is redundant?

Quite.

Those who would disagree are heretics.

162 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:19:37pm

re: #153 Gus 802

Monday, November 23, 2009
Controlled Burn Notices

State of Calfornia

Stupid Question: Why don't they harvest the dead brush and use it for something?

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:20:23pm

re: #162 Spare O'Lake

Stupid Question: Why don't they harvest the dead brush and use it for something?

They save it for kindling.

164 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:20:23pm

re: #162 Spare O'Lake

Stupid Question: Why don't they harvest the dead brush and use it for something?

I imagine that would take a great deal of manpower. It's easier and cheaper to do a controlled burn.

165 jonik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:20:32pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

True, the state does not clear brush anymore. They switched from managing the wilderness years ago to letting mother nature decide. Of course if mother nature decides to bring in the Santa Ana winds (2-3 days of hot, dry powerful winds) and some idiot decides to light a fire, set off a flare, or just exercise his or her pyromaniac fantasies, then we have a state emergency costing millions of dollars, not to mention millions of tons of "carbon footprint' dumped in the air.

166 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:20:48pm

re: #158 albusteve

not very poetic Walter

I'm sorry.

167 RRFan  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:21:02pm

Once upon a time there was a pharmaceutical company. They wanted to introduce a new drug, but there was some bad data. They could not remove it (a crime), so it was included in the documents but hidden in all of the clutter. The information was reviewed by the FDA, and approved. And people died.

I believe that something similar is happening with the global warming data. As with anything as complicated, some data will support one side and some will support the other. ALL DATA must be evaluated and let the data speak for itself. Looks like mostly one side is being presented and one side being suppressed. The UK will be forming a commission to evaluate the data. I am interested in seeing what will happen. My bet is that almost everyone will come out looking badly.

168 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:21:05pm

What's scary about this to me is reading comments over at Our Lady of the Immaculate Internment Camps... It's truly unbelievable to see the aggressive ignorance on display. Her commenters couldn't SPELL "climate change" without a dictionary program and a speech-to-text converter, and yet they feel perfectly justified in calling the ENTIRE climate change "discussion" decided before it's started. Just in case you were wondering who the recipients are of all those bulk-ordered copies of "Going Rogue," I think I've got some candidates for you.

169 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:21:13pm

re: #164 Gus 802

I imagine that would take a great deal of manpower.

That's a stimulus program waiting to happen right there.

170 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:21:52pm

re: #162 Spare O'Lake

Stupid Question: Why don't they harvest the dead brush and use it for something?

Because enough dead stuff still remains on the ground to burn wildly, as opposed to what happens after a controlled burn.

As for the carbon footprint involved, my concern for that equal my worry for the safety of Somali pirates.

171 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:22:53pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry.

death is dead, the closing of the spiral and back to the blankness from which we were thrust...heh

172 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:23:26pm

re: #169 Sharmuta

stole my thunder : )

173 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:23:39pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Indeed it is. And if it weren't for death, I'd have nothing to feed my garden in the spring. Death is renewal.

174 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:23:59pm

re: #168 OneMonkeysUncle

Our Lady of the Immaculate Internment Camps

Heh.

175 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:25:16pm

re: #173 Jeff In Ohio

Indeed it is. And if it weren't for death, I'd have nothing to feed my garden in the spring. Death is renewal.

use chemicals, same thing

176 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:26:38pm

re: #171 albusteve

death is dead, the closing of the spiral and back to the blankness from which we were thrust...heh

Extra Vicoden today, huh? :) Did you read my little story about my trip to the dentist today...

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

177 eastsider  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:27:51pm

re: #167 RRFan

Once upon a time there was a pharmaceutical company. They wanted to introduce a new drug, but there was some bad data. They could not remove it (a crime), so it was included in the documents but hidden in all of the clutter. The information was reviewed by the FDA, and approved. And people died.

I believe that something similar is happening with the global warming data. As with anything as complicated, some data will support one side and some will support the other. ALL DATA must be evaluated and let the data speak for itself. Looks like mostly one side is being presented and one side being suppressed. The UK will be forming a commission to evaluate the data. I am interested in seeing what will happen. My bet is that almost everyone will come out looking badly.

What was the name of the drug?

Also, the conclusion of "Looks like mostly one side is being presented and one side being suppressed" is one possible interpretation. The other, and in my opinion more likely, is that the data itself supports one side versus the other. Call it naive, but I have faith in the ability of 100s of independent researchers to check and balance themselves.

178 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:28:22pm

re: #138 Gus 802

If the Allegheny River floods annually causing economic disaster, death and injury on a frequent basis do you install flood control measures? What about the Mississippi River? Or do we leave it alone and see if the trend reverses itself?

Then what about forest fires. Do we allow them to burn naturally or control them with fire fighting measures? Do we clean out the fuel elements to lower the danger?

Controlling or managing the environment is a common human activity.

True.

So far we haven't really tried it on a global scale, e.g. controlling the relative contents of the atmosphere or managing the oceans in some oceanic way.

If it can be done without greatly infringing on individual/regional/national sovereignty, and with reasonable assurance that our attempts to control things that vast do not end up causing more harm than good, I'm all for giving it a try.

Those are big "ifs".

There is no such thing anymore as nature unaffected by man, but to affect something one way does not mean we can effect the the other.

179 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:29:00pm

ΠΙΜΦ: "the the" = "it the"

180 Conservative Moonbat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:29:05pm

re: #161 Cato the Elder

Quite.

Those who would disagree are heretics.

fascinating.

I'm a Unitarian so I'm definately not born again but still find this conversation really interesting.

181 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:29:36pm

re: #159 Cato the Elder

What part of this do you not understand?

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

I understand lot's.

182 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:29:44pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

Extra Vicoden today, huh? :) Did you read my little story about my trip to the dentist today...

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

haha!...good story...never had my opiates stick to my mouth tho...you'll survive

183 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:30:28pm

re: #173 Jeff In Ohio

Indeed it is. And if it weren't for death, I'd have nothing to feed my garden in the spring. Death is renewal.

Pushing daisies after death is not exactly the big selling point of most religions.

184 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:31:36pm

re: #164 Gus 802

I imagine that would take a great deal of manpower. It's easier and cheaper to do a controlled burn.

There are problems with "controlled" burns, however. Many of them quickly run out of control, for one thing. There is over a century's worth of built-up undergrowth in the nation's forests, thanks to a long-standing policy of rigid fire suppression. So there's plenty of fuel over a wide area, and what begins as a controlled burn can quickly turn sour.

There's also the problem of heat. With so much fuel, these fires burn hotter than those in areas where undergrowth gets burned out more regularly. They can be hot enough to kill large trees outright, or set their wood afire, something a sparser brush fire typically won't do. They can also burn hot enough to sterilize the soil, killing insects, animals and seeds to a significant depth. Unlike milder fires, which clear the land and make nutrients available to dormant seeds (some of which require fire to germinate) a really hot fire leaves behind ground that will take much, much longer to recover.

And, of course, there's the problem of real estate. No one likes it much when their million dollar mountainside home goes up in smoke.

In many areas, hand-clearing is the only reasonable approach, despite being brutally labor intensive.

185 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:31:49pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

True.

So far we haven't really tried it on a global scale, e.g. controlling the relative contents of the atmosphere or managing the oceans in some oceanic way.

If it can be done without greatly infringing on individual/regional/national sovereignty, and with reasonable assurance that our attempts to control things that vast do not end up causing more harm than good, I'm all for giving it a try.

Those are big "ifs".

There is no such thing anymore as nature unaffected by man, but to affect something one way does not mean we can effect the the other.

As long as we work within our means and capabilities. The greater being, as you mentioned, do we make matters worse with projects on this scale. Do the benefits outweigh the risks and so on.

186 jonik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:32:16pm

re: #177 eastsider

The problem with this debate is similar to the political spectrum. To influence public opinion the side that makes the most noise, or as happens lately with our media outlets, the side that stifles the other side usually wins the debate. What needs to be examined here is did one side have enought power to successfully stifle dissent and its accompanying debate.

187 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:33:19pm

re: #182 albusteve

haha!...good story...never had my opiates stick to my mouth tho...you'll survive

I've had the oblates stick to the roof of my mouth before. Those are the days I'm glad the Church now dispenses wine to the masses, too.

188 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:33:32pm

re: #183 Spare O'Lake

That's why I don't bury them in my garden. Did I say that out loud?

189 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:33:51pm

re: #186 jonik

The problem with this debate is similar to the political spectrum. To influence public opinion the side that makes the most noise, or as happens lately with our media outlets, the side that stifles the other side usually wins the debate. What needs to be examined here is did one side have enought power to successfully stifle dissent and its accompanying debate.

Oh shut up!

190 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:34:29pm

re: #180 Conservative Moonbat

fascinating.

I'm a Unitarian so I'm definately not born again but still find this conversation really interesting.

You know how you get a Unitarian family out of your neighborhood... you burn a question mark on their front lawn (Mort Sahl)

191 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:34:44pm

re: #187 Cato the Elder

I've had the oblates stick to the roof of my mouth before. Those are the days I'm glad the Church now dispenses wine to the masses, too.

cotton mouth...Ripple
I know what you mean

192 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:34:55pm

re: #181 Jeff In Ohio

I understand lot's.

Lot's what? Lot's wife? ;^)

193 jonik  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:35:12pm

re: #189 Spare O'Lake

...Or you can stifle debate by telling one side to shut up.
You must be a professor

194 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:36:32pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

Ouch!

195 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:37:03pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

Lot's what? Lot's wife? ;^)

Salty dog, you!

196 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:37:14pm

re: #193 jonik

...Or you can stifle debate by telling one side to shut up.
You must be a professor

I think you missed the irony

197 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:37:48pm

re: #184 SixDegrees

I was just looking at a story about a wildfire in LA that started as a controlled burn fire. It ended up consuming 6,500 acres. One of the other problems with controlled burns is air quality concerns. So a forest or park service may deem it acceptable for a controlled burn they then have to apply for a waiver. Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:38:22pm

re: #147 rwdflynavy

FBV,

I'm in Big Lick for Thanksgiving if you want to grab a beer at the Backcreek diner place. Email in profile.

Seriously... tonight I'm free... have no idea about the rest of the week.

199 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:38:42pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

Lot's what? Lot's wife? ;^)

Salt of the earth, that woman.

200 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:39:08pm

re: #197 Gus 802

Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

They're not just for dancing anymore:

201 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:39:18pm

re: #198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seriously... tonight I'm free... have no idea about the rest of the week.

You usually charge people to go out with you?

202 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:39:43pm

re: #201 sattv4u2

You usually charge people to go out with you?

Some days you're the pigeon, and some days you're the statue.

203 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:00pm

re: #197 Gus 802

I was just looking at a story about a wildfire in LA that started as a controlled burn fire. It ended up consuming 6,500 acres. One of the other problems with controlled burns is air quality concerns. So a forest or park service may deem it acceptable for a controlled burn they then have to apply for a waiver. Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

Fish and plankton and sea greens and protein from the sea.


(Logan's Run)
204 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:13pm

re: #197 Gus 802

I was just looking at a story about a wildfire in LA that started as a controlled burn fire. It ended up consuming 6,500 acres. One of the other problems with controlled burns is air quality concerns. So a forest or park service may deem it acceptable for a controlled burn they then have to apply for a waiver. Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

Ever since they burned down a big part of Los Alamos, they don't call 'em "controlled burns" in New Mexico. Now they call 'em "prescribed burns". Truth in advertising, I guess.

205 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:21pm

re: #200 Sharmuta

They're not just for dancing anymore:


Please enjoy.

206 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:44pm

re: #193 jonik

...Or you can stifle debate by telling one side to shut up.
You must be a professor

OK, you didn't get that one, my apology for telling you to shut up. Is this better:
LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA?

207 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:57pm

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Salt of the earth, that woman.

Pillar of the community.

208 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:40:59pm

re: #197 Gus 802

I was just looking at a story about a wildfire in LA that started as a controlled burn fire. It ended up consuming 6,500 acres. One of the other problems with controlled burns is air quality concerns. So a forest or park service may deem it acceptable for a controlled burn they then have to apply for a waiver. Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

there is no timber out there, it's all scrub, and any machinery would tear up the ground and simply make things worse...put the crooks in jail on the job

209 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:41:03pm

re: #180 Conservative Moonbat

fascinating.

I'm a Unitarian so I'm definately not born again but still find this conversation really interesting.

Were you baptized in any church?

I was baptized a Methodist and raised a Unitarian. When I became Catholic, I had to jump through hoops to get a copy of my Methodist baptismal certificate from half a century before. The Catholic Church will not baptize again if a valid Christian baptism ceremony was ever performed. If you cannot prove it, though, they will give what is called "conditional baptism".

Point being, to Catholics, baptism is a one-time sacrament, valid from any Christian church, not to be repeated. I could go to Israel tomorrow and have myself dipped in the Jordan, but it would be nothing more than an interesting water-based experience.

Back in my rabid atheist days, I was so incensed at my parents for giving me an infant baptism that I looked into whether someone could unbaptize me. Can't be done.

210 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:42:02pm

re: #204 wrenchwench

Ever since they burned down a big part of Los Alamos, they don't call 'em "controlled burns" in New Mexico. Now they call 'em "prescribed burns". Truth in advertising, I guess.

Good one! I forgot about that latest phrase: prescribed burns.

211 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:42:13pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

Were you baptized in any church?

I was baptized a Methodist and raised a Unitarian. When I became Catholic, I had to jump through hoops to get a copy of my Methodist baptismal certificate from half a century before. The Catholic Church will not baptize again if a valid Christian baptism ceremony was ever performed. If you cannot prove it, though, they will give what is called "conditional baptism".

Point being, to Catholics, baptism is a one-time sacrament, valid from any Christian church, not to be repeated. I could go to Israel tomorrow and have myself dipped in the Jordan, but it would be nothing more than an interesting water-based experience.

Back in my rabid atheist days, I was so incensed at my parents for giving me an infant baptism that I looked into whether someone could unbaptize me. Can't be done.

I do it... free.

212 RRFan  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:42:22pm

I would rather not mention the name of the drug. I worked for the company during that time period.

213 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:42:23pm

re: #208 albusteve

there is no timber out there, it's all scrub, and any machinery would tear up the ground and simply make things worse...put the crooks in jail on the job

Yeah, let's give em Kaiser blades (some folk calls 'em slingblades, I call 'em kaiser blades).

214 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:43:24pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

But really, I get what your saying. I think the Catholics that use the term born again are seeking common ground with Protestants. For Catholics, being born again is nothing more then the renewal of god in their lives and they can be said to be born again (or renewed, or regenerated) after any of a dozen sacraments during the year, but it does imply a conscious renewal. For the Protestants it happens just once. For the record, I was raised a Methodist (YOUR GOING TO HELL), live with Catholics (Say your sorry this Sunday, and you will not go to hell), but am an atheist (You mean this isn't hell?).

I like this explanation:

[Link: www.americancatholic.org...]

215 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:43:30pm

re: #213 Guanxi88

Yeah, let's give em Kaiser blades (some folk calls 'em slingblades, I call 'em kaiser blades).

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

216 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:44:17pm

re: #200 Sharmuta

They're not just for dancing anymore:


Easily one of the best videos he ever did. Love the twist on the Sony demonstration.

217 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:44:45pm

re: #214 Jeff In Ohio

But really, I get what your saying. I think the Catholics that use the term born again are seeking common ground with Protestants. For Catholics, being born again is nothing more then the renewal of god in their lives and they can be said to be born again (or renewed, or regenerated) after any of a dozen sacraments during the year, but it does imply a conscious renewal. For the Protestants it happens just once. For the record, I was raised a Methodist (YOUR GOING TO HELL), live with Catholics (Say your sorry this Sunday, and you will not go to hell), but am an atheist (You mean this isn't hell?).

I like this explanation:

[Link: www.americancatholic.org...]

I like you.

218 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:44:51pm

re: #212 RRFan

I would rather not mention the name of the drug. I worked for the company during that time period.

How would naming the drug jeopardize you, your ex-employer or anyone else. I call bullshit.

219 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:45:13pm

I'm bored again...does that count?

220 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:45:22pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

I do it... free.

Too late!

I may send my brother to you, though.

221 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:45:30pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

I looked into whether someone could unbaptize me. Can't be done.

Well, you can, but theres that whole Madame Sonia//Chicken heads// Eye of a newt// Bubble Bubble Toil And trouble riggamaroll you have to go through

222 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:46:05pm

re: #208 albusteve

there is no timber out there, it's all scrub, and any machinery would tear up the ground and simply make things worse...put the crooks in jail on the job

Not even the 2010 John Deere 1490D Energy Wood Harvester?

/

223 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:46:40pm

re: #220 Cato the Elder

Too late!

I may send my brother to you, though.

No way. From the way you talk about your brother, he scares me.

224 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:47:04pm

re: #84 Walter L. Newton

The term "born again" is not used by all Christian denominations to refer to a person who has accepted Christ. Event that term "accepted Christ" is not a doctrinal statement in many Christian sects.

You are talking about "group speak" and different Christian flavors have different group speak. If you were a Catholic and said that you were "born again," you would rarely ever be first recognized as a Catholic.

Catholics are baptized as infants, making no conscious decision about accepting anything.

"Born again" is far from some sort of identification badge that can be pegged on all Christians.

Catholics are confirmed later in life,when they are old enough to make a conscious decision.

225 RogueOne  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:47:31pm

re: #173 Jeff In Ohio

Indeed it is. And if it weren't for death, I'd have nothing to feed my garden in the spring. Death is renewal.

hippie//

226 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:47:34pm

re: #221 sattv4u2

I looked into whether someone could unbaptize me. Can't be done.

Well, you can, but theres that whole Madame Sonia//Chicken heads// Eye of a newt// Bubble Bubble Toil And trouble riggamaroll you have to go through

Technically, you're right. I hear the LaVeyans will do it too, but those guys just creep me out - and not because I take their Satanism seriously. It's the music and the skanks they have for groupies.

227 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:48:02pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

No way. From the way you talk about your brother, he scares me.

Yeah. He's snarky, hyper-literate, and as elegant and refined as a damascus-bladed stiletto. Nothing at all like Cato.

228 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:48:09pm

re: #222 Gus 802

Not even the 2010 John Deere 1490D Energy Wood Harvester?

/

"sorry ma'am, I have not seen your poodle"

229 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:48:46pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Technically, you're right. I hear the LaVeyans will do it too, but those guys just creep me out - and not because I take their Satanism seriously. It's the music and the skanks they have for groupies.

One mans skanks is another mans sweetheart. Love is blind.

230 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:49:23pm

re: #227 Guanxi88

Yeah. He's snarky, hyper-literate, and as elegant and refined as a damascus-bladed stiletto. Nothing at all like Cato.

Twin, huh?

231 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:49:37pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

Were you baptized in any church?

I was baptized a Methodist and raised a Unitarian. When I became Catholic, I had to jump through hoops to get a copy of my Methodist baptismal certificate from half a century before. The Catholic Church will not baptize again if a valid Christian baptism ceremony was ever performed. If you cannot prove it, though, they will give what is called "conditional baptism".

Point being, to Catholics, baptism is a one-time sacrament, valid from any Christian church, not to be repeated. I could go to Israel tomorrow and have myself dipped in the Jordan, but it would be nothing more than an interesting water-based experience.

Back in my rabid atheist days, I was so incensed at my parents for giving me an infant baptism that I looked into whether someone could unbaptize me. Can't be done.

Be glad you're not Jewish. How'd you like to become un-circumcised?

232 SixDegrees  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:50:12pm

re: #197 Gus 802

I was just looking at a story about a wildfire in LA that started as a controlled burn fire. It ended up consuming 6,500 acres. One of the other problems with controlled burns is air quality concerns. So a forest or park service may deem it acceptable for a controlled burn they then have to apply for a waiver. Hand clearing would be a rather enormous task but it can be eased through cooperation with the timber industry and the use of their machinery. Perhaps a good task for robots in the future?

Or prisoners.

233 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:50:22pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Technically, you're right. I hear the LaVeyans will do it too, but those guys just creep me out - and not because I take their Satanism seriously. It's the music and the skanks they have for groupies.

LaVey! What a joke! Theatrical inversion of Catholicism, by & for the acid-freaks of Haight-Ashbury. So laughably foolish as to be indistinguishable from parody.

234 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:50:35pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Technically, you're right. I hear the LaVeyans will do it too, but those guys just creep me out - and not because I take their Satanism seriously. It's the music and the skanks they have for groupies.

A relative of mine was involved in this cult, but my parents complain because I'm an Orthodox Jew!

235 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:50:38pm

re: #219 Spare O'Lake

I'm bored again...does that count?


Let me see what I can do . . . standby ;>

236 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:50:46pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Technically, you're right. I hear the LaVeyans will do it too, but those guys just creep me out - and not because I take their Satanism seriously. It's the music and the skanks they have for groupies.

why don't you just tell God you've changed your mind...can't be that big of a deal

237 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:51:20pm

re: #230 Walter L. Newton

Twin, huh?

No, he's mean, and only knows 5 languages. It's the only way Cato was bale to survive as a child. Registering his complaints and curses in Albanian was what saved his sanity.

238 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:52:21pm

Anybody going to the Glenn Beck get together in August?

239 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:52:51pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

No way. From the way you talk about your brother, he scares me.

He should. He's a museum-quality exemplar of Moonbattus Americanus dogmaticus.

240 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:12pm

re: #239 Cato the Elder

He should. He's a museum-quality exemplar of Moonbattus Americanus dogmaticus.

Like Mycroft, but with less charm, eh?

241 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:31pm

re: #238 spinmore

Anybody going to the Glenn Beck get together in August?

Only to point and laugh.

242 RRFan  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:32pm

On drugs: It was a bad time for everyone that I would rather forget. Everyone lost in that event (people and resources). If you are really interested Google withdrawn drugs. There are many examples out there. My point is that data can be manipulated. Sometimes for the good but most times for worse.

243 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:46pm

re: #217 Cato the Elder

I like you.

Don't worry, it'll pass.

244 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:50pm

re: #225 RogueOne

hippie//

Thus:

[Link: www.google.com...]

245 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:53:57pm

re: #232 SixDegrees

Or prisoners.

Which Steve mentioned. Then we're dealing with prison labor and you know what a touchy subject that is.

I do like this slash bundler which could be used for this purpose. Since someone mentioned finding a use for the material.

246 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:54:14pm

re: #238 spinmore

Anybody going to the Glenn Beck get together in August?

It will end in tears.

247 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:54:33pm

re: #231 Alouette

Be glad you're not Jewish. How'd you like to become un-circumcised?

LOL
There are just so many inappropriate things I could say right now..
*laughing*

248 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:54:36pm

re: #225 RogueOne

:)

I just bathe more these days. And married well.

249 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:54:54pm

re: #247 HoosierHoops

LOL
There are just so many inappropriate things I could say right now..
*laughing*

Leaves you in stitches, does it?

250 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:54:55pm

re: #243 Jeff In Ohio

Don't worry, it'll pass.

no man hugs?...they do man hugs here, try one

251 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:55:06pm

re: #229 Walter L. Newton

One mans skanks is another mans sweetheart. Love is blind.

Satanic Skanks? sounds like a bands name...

252 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:55:18pm

re: #246 Decatur Deb

It will end in tears.

And begin. And peak. And trough. And peak again. And then - the grand finale of lachrymosity!

253 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:55:41pm

re: #238 spinmore

Anybody going to the Glenn Beck get together in August?

I'm waiting by the phone..But no invite yet
/

254 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:55:44pm

re: #246 Decatur Deb

It will end start in tears.

FTFY. 'Course, both are probably right.

255 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:56:30pm

re: #252 Cato the Elder

And begin. And peak. And trough. And peak again. And then - the grand finale of lachrymosity!

re: #252 Cato the Elder

And begin. And peak. And trough. And peak again. And then - the grand finale of lachrymosity!

256 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:56:55pm

re: #231 Alouette

Be glad you're not Jewish. How'd you like to become un-circumcised?

I don't know where I pick up such perversities, but I've actually heard that such can be done.

I'm not sure it's unkosher enough, though, if performed with anesthesia.

Pass.

257 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:58:09pm

re: #250 albusteve

He doesn't do sarc tags. What if he was kidding and I reach out and am then rejected and laughed at. My self esteem would be in tatters. Man tatters. Ugly man tatters. I need to beat a drum.

258 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:58:37pm

re: #240 Guanxi88

Like Mycroft, but with less charm, eh?

Only my brother is younger than I.

259 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:58:44pm

re: #257 Jeff In Ohio

He doesn't do sarc tags. What if he was kidding and I reach out and am then rejected and laughed at. My self esteem would be in tatters. Man tatters. Ugly man tatters. I need to beat a drum.

Screw that! You need to get in a fight. You'll feel better.

260 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:58:45pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don't know where I pick up such perversities, but I've actually heard that such can be done.

I'm not sure it's unkosher enough, though, if performed with anesthesia.

Pass.

if God has a sense of humor, I'm sure he is laughing at you

261 Cathypop  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:58:45pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don't know where I pick up such perversities, but I've actually heard that such can be done.

I'm not sure it's unkosher enough, though, if performed with anesthesia.

Pass.

Trying to picture hat it would look like after ... it ain't purdy!

262 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:59:08pm

re: #258 Cato the Elder

Only my brother is younger than I.

Just proves what a crappy Mycroft he is, doesn't it?

263 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:59:08pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don't know where I pick up such perversities, but I've actually heard that such can be done.

I'm not sure it's unkosher enough, though, if performed with anesthesia.

Pass.

An ancient attempt is part of the story line of The Source.
Ends in tears.

264 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:59:49pm

re: #243 Jeff In Ohio

Don't worry, it'll pass.

That's what my Grade 9 teacher told my parents.

265 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:59:53pm

re: #257 Jeff In Ohio

He doesn't do sarc tags. What if he was kidding and I reach out and am then rejected and laughed at. My self esteem would be in tatters. Man tatters. Ugly man tatters. I need to beat a drum.

Usually, simple declarative statements of ten words or less I mean sincerely.

You wanna hug?

266 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:00:16pm

re: #259 Guanxi88

Screw that! You need to get in a fight. You'll feel better.

I only fight in bars.

267 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:00:27pm

re: #266 Jeff In Ohio

I only fight in bars.

Then you'll do fine.

268 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:00:46pm

re: #265 Cato the Elder

Usually, simple declarative statements of ten words or less I mean sincerely.

You wanna hug?

I count 15 words.

269 eastsider  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:01:03pm

re: #242 RRFan

On drugs: It was a bad time for everyone that I would rather forget. Everyone lost in that event (people and resources). If you are really interested Google withdrawn drugs. There are many examples out there. My point is that data can be manipulated. Sometimes for the good but most times for worse.

It sounds like you're thinking of something specific, which drug was it?

270 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:01:04pm

re: #263 Decatur Deb

An ancient attempt is part of the story line of The Source.
Ends in tears.

Like a Beck gathering.

I read that once, many years ago, before my first trip to Israel. That part didn't stick.

271 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:01:14pm

re: #268 Guanxi88

Exactly. He tried to bait me.

272 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:01:44pm

re: #268 Guanxi88

I count 15 words.

I was referring in the first sentence to the succeeding one.

Obviously without success.

273 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:01:54pm

re: #238 spinmore

Anybody going to the Glenn Beck get together in August?

Well since he appears to be planning to have it on the anniversary of MLK's I Have a Dream speech, I'd assume quite a few folks will be there.

Sounds like you are trying to stir it up eh?

274 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:03:07pm

re: #21 oldegeezr

It would appear that Apple Computer has a different take on a smoker’s, indulgence?

They may have to choose between their Fuentes Gordos or their Platinum laptops...!

oldegeezr -

In my best Steinmetzian delivery - "...No Smoking, No Shalit..." That is all. -S-

275 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:03:12pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don't know where I pick up such perversities, but I've actually heard that such can be done.

I'm not sure it's unkosher enough, though, if performed with anesthesia.

Pass.

Maybe they can grow a new foreskin on a mouse? (Link is to a South Park scene, what else?)

276 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:03:14pm

re: #273 Stanley Sea

Well since he appears to be planning to have it on the anniversary of MLK's I Have a Dream speech, I'd assume quite a few folks will be there.

Sounds like you are trying to stir it up eh?

277 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:03:30pm

re: #270 Cato the Elder

Like a Beck gathering.

I read that once, many years ago, before my first trip to Israel. That part didn't stick.

It was the Hellenized kid who wanted to compete in the games. We used the book as a kind of tour guide, finding sites that fit the novel.

278 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:04:18pm

re: #273 Stanley Sea

Well since he appears to be planning to have it on the anniversary of MLK's I Have a Dream speech, I'd assume quite a few folks will be there.

Sounds like you are trying to stir it up eh?

Who me . . . stir things up . . . never (lol)

279 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:05:40pm

re: #266 Jeff In Ohio

I only fight in bars.

I had a buddy get in a bar fight once..Was getting his ass just kicked...The other guy went for a kill shot to my friends face..He moved his head and the guy shattered his hand against a steel pipe..My friend was bragging about how he won a bar fight.. We just shake our heads...

280 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:06:49pm

re: #167 RRFan

Wow, that is impressive -48 karma with only 18 posts, your really on the road to sucess there.

Maybe part of it is your your blog nic, I know my downding finger gets itchy everytime I see it even before I read your post.

(BTW if your going to make a post claiming shit like that we need links and names, not "once upon a time" fairytale bullshit. That is not going to influence the people on this blog, maybe on HotAir, but not here.)

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:06:54pm

re: #279 HoosierHoops

I am big on the "fetal position" bar fighting stance.

282 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:07:23pm

re: #279 HoosierHoops

I had a buddy get in a bar fight once..Was getting his ass just kicked...The other guy went for a kill shot to my friends face..He moved his head and the guy shattered his hand against a steel pipe..My friend was bragging about how he won a bar fight.. We just shake our heads...

real brawlers fight outside the bar, not inside

283 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:07:30pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am big on the "fetal position" bar fighting stance.

I'm a bigger fan of just seeing it on COPS !

284 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:09:05pm

re: #280 ausador

Wow, that is impressive -48 karma with only 18 posts, your really on the road to sucess there.

Maybe part of it is your your blog nic, I know my downding finger gets itchy everytime I see it even before I read your post.

(BTW if your going to make a post claiming shit like that we need links and names, not "once upon a time" fairytale bullshit. That is not going to influence the people on this blog, maybe on HotAir, but not here.)

just scroll by...save your breath

285 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:09:44pm

re: #277 Decatur Deb

It was the Hellenized kid who wanted to compete in the games. We used the book as a kind of tour guide, finding sites that fit the novel.

The part I remember best is the story of the little prehistoric girl who almost tames the wild dog. Then along comes her designated bridegroom and kills it for fun.

Made me, shall we say, lachrymose. Still does.

286 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:10:03pm

Glenn Beck is now adding coffins to his shtick.

Glenn Beck Buries The Two - Party System, Literally

The Silver Gopher. He does his Kermit the Frog voice too.

287 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:13:23pm

re: #286 Gus 802

They're trying to make way for a populist-styled third party.

288 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:15:47pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

They're trying to make way for a populist-styled third party.

with Beck himself as the neoFounding Father...cha ching$$$

289 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:15:48pm

re: #279 HoosierHoops

I had a buddy get in a bar fight once..Was getting his ass just kicked...The other guy went for a kill shot to my friends face..He moved his head and the guy shattered his hand against a steel pipe..My friend was bragging about how he won a bar fight.. We just shake our heads...

Bar fights are mostly huff and puff and it's over. Like a teenager in a whore house. I've witnessed many (occasional old school country musician - redneck and biker bars), got hit in the face with a bottle once, but contrary to my pose, participate only as a voyeur.

290 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:16:08pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

They're trying to make way for a populist-styled third party.

I think so. All 3 million of them. That being his viewership. Of course it comes with all of that wonderful Beckian baggage we are all familiar with.

291 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:16:32pm

re: #282 albusteve

real brawlers fight outside the bar, not inside

I don't think I've ever been in a bar fight...Words has been spoken but no fists thrown..
One time in High school I did try out for boxing.. I jump into the ring with some other kid.. I'm dancing around..Talking trash...I got the living crap beat out of me.. I remember dragging myself out of ring saying I'll never do that again... I got pummeled...
Boxing may look easy...But holy crap! Never again!

292 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:17:09pm

re: #288 albusteve

with Beck himself as the neoFounding Father...cha ching$$$

He expects to be revered come 2110.

/

293 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:17:19pm

re: #290 Gus 802

I think so. All 3 million of them. That being his viewership. Of course it comes with all of that wonderful Beckian baggage we are all familiar with.

That Palin/Beck ticket isn't looking like so much of a joke now, is it?

294 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:18:25pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

I don't think I've ever been in a bar fight...Words has been spoken but no fists thrown..
One time in High school I did try out for boxing.. I jump into the ring with some other kid.. I'm dancing around..Talking trash...I got the living crap beat out of me.. I remember dragging myself out of ring saying I'll never do that again... I got pummeled...
Boxing may look easy...But holy crap! Never again!

fighting takes stamina...the best know that and go for broke immediately

295 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:18:30pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

That Palin/Beck ticket isn't looking like so much of a joke now, is it?

No, it's not. They're all coming out of the woodwork including Lou Dobbs.

296 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:18:54pm

re: #292 Gus 802

He expects to be revered come 2110.

/

Mt Beckmore!

297 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:19:05pm

re: #294 albusteve

fighting takes stamina...the best know that and go for broke immediately

Go for broke! Turn around and run like crazy!

/

298 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:19:15pm

re: #289 Jeff In Ohio

Bar fights are mostly huff and puff and it's over. Like a teenager in a whore house. I've witnessed many (occasional old school country musician - redneck and biker bars), got hit in the face with a bottle once, but contrary to my pose, participate only as a voyeur.

Some guy who shouldna hadna oughtna swang on me, did. With a hefty glass beer mug. Missed. Shattered the front door instead. Pushed me up against a pinball machine. That's when his friends intervened.

Afterwards, I was banned from that dive, because he was a regular.

I waited ten weeks and then dropped a dime on their little selling-drugs-to-college-students sideline. The place is still shuttered.

299 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:19:30pm

re: #296 albusteve

Mt Beckmore!

The Becker Dam!

300 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

That Palin/Beck ticket isn't looking like so much of a joke now, is it?

not to me...it's only a matter of time
AmIdol politics

301 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:19:55pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

About 1980, I stood against the wall of a punk rock club in Rochester, NY as a total melee broke out at a Suicidal Tendencies show. Holy shit, that was like watching Gun Smoke, but instead of big hats and dust, spiked hair and grease.

302 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:20:54pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

That Palin/Beck ticket isn't looking like so much of a joke now, is it?

It is not a joke to the DNC and the Obama reelection team. They pray for it five times a day.

303 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:21:08pm

re: #298 Cato the Elder

Moral: where ever you go, don't mess with the regulars, except when their not looking!

304 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:21:18pm

re: #299 Gus 802

The Becker Dam!

the Glenn B Turnpike!

305 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:21:27pm

re: #295 Gus 802

No, it's not. They're all coming out of the woodwork including Lou Dobbs.

Lou can be the chairman of their new party.

306 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:21:58pm

re: #302 Cato the Elder

It is not a joke to the DNC and the Obama reelection team. They pray for it five times a day.

We bow towards Wasilla.

307 OneMonkeysUncle  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:23:09pm

re: #293 Sharmuta

On the contrary, it just looks like more of a joke we'll actually get to SEE the punchline of, that's all...

308 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:23:18pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

They're trying to make way for a populist-styled third party.

Sharmuta-

"The New Whigs?" Think Cato is a member. Then again, I'm from NJ, a 1.5 Party State. -S-

309 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:23:24pm

re: #306 Decatur Deb

We bow towards Wasilla.

But if you're unsure, magnetic north will do just fine.

310 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:23:43pm

re: #308 Dr. Shalit

Sharmuta-

"The New Whigs?" Think Cato is a member. Then again, I'm from NJ, a 1.5 Party State. -S-

Not me. Ojoe.

311 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:23:48pm

re: #304 albusteve

the Glenn B Turnpike!

Beck Space Center, Houston, TX

//

312 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:24:51pm

re: #311 Gus 802

Beck Space Center, Houston, TX

//

Beck University

313 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:25:19pm

re: #308 Dr. Shalit

They can call themselves the Rouge Party, and they can take Stacy McCain and keep him.

314 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:25:46pm

CNN just a while ago filed a report with respect to the alleged terrorists to be tried in NY...According to the lawyer, Scott Fenstermaker, they will be pleading "not guilty" and claiming the truly "guilty party" is, of course the United States. I guess this only comes as a "surprise" to the CNN reporter (in the intro he said something to the effect "in a surprise move today" -- I guess the reporter was figuring that when KSM pled back in Feb. to being guilty and asked to be executed, that KSM would continue along the same lines once allowed into a Civilian Federal Court -- as if a Jihadi terrorist would waive his "rights" to grandstand and propagandize for "the cause.'

Oh, yes, and the reporter, when asked by the anchor-desk person, "What would happen in the event of a mis-trial?" The reporter responded, that a release "isn't going to happen." Yes, indeedy. The reporter then explained that an accused who is found "not guilty" by reason of a mistrial (or any other untoward circumstance) will be immediately whisked back to prison, deemed "dangerous" and "held under the same laws they're being held under now." hmmm...yeah, now that certainly makes a lot of sense -- why trials are held becomes a curiosity, and will this be American "justice" in action?... good grief..

315 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:26:01pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

They're trying to make way for a populist-styled third party.

What are they going to call it, The BECKIAN RAGE party ?

316 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:26:02pm

re: #312 albusteve

Beck University

The Sarah Palin School of International Studies and Advanced Linguistics

/

317 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:26:07pm

re: #312 albusteve

I tried to upding that--couldn't.

318 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:26:17pm

re: #310 Cato the Elder

Not me. Ojoe.

Cato -

Thanks for the correction. As for "Magnetic North" ROTFLMAO! Even Palin fans like myself maintain a sense of humor. -S-

319 HoosierHoops  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:26:22pm

re: #311 Gus 802

Beck Space Center, Houston, TX

//

Let's just hope there will never be a Beck Presidential Library...

320 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:27:03pm

re: #317 Decatur Deb

I tried to upding that--couldn't.

United Church of the Beckians

321 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:29:15pm

I'd like to see "Sarah/Glenn 2016". Nothing would be sweeter than hearing the current administration called "The Good Old Days".

322 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:29:32pm

re: #314 J.S.

List of things that will be on trial
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

List of things that BHO campaigned on and against
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

323 Cathypop  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:29:42pm

re: #311 Gus 802

Beck Space Center, Houston, TX

//


Maybe they could just shoot him into space! Beck Satalite

324 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:30:19pm

re: #321 Decatur Deb

I'd like to see "Sarah/Glenn 2016". Nothing would be sweeter than hearing the current administration called "The Good Old Days".

they'd probably win...something everybody here seems to dismiss

325 hillfolk  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:30:53pm

How is this determined to be a Nontroversy... It sort of reminds me of the Fake But Accurate meme with the Rather Gate episode.

Here you actually have scientists refusing to provide the raw data and computer code used to produce the time-series that represents the 'Average Global Temperature'. Those time-series have been used and reused and referenced in many of the studies that go into producing the IPCC documents. I was always taught that Science was about transparency and reproducable results. From reading the emails it appears to me that was not really what these guys were worried about here.

326 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:31:19pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

(if I were a defense attorney, I'd also be collecting every scrap of published "speeches" by a certain current president (that's Obama) about Amerikkka (ie, "born in sin", etc, etc.))

327 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:32:00pm

re: #314 J.S.

I'm commented out on this subject for awhile...read the new Krauthammer piece

328 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:32:32pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

List of things that will be on trial
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

List of things that BHO campaigned on and against
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

Pferdescheiße.

Et fu ta cousine germaine.

Crawl away, animalcule, flagellate!

329 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:32:42pm

re: #326 J.S.

(if I were a defense attorney, I'd also be collecting every scrap of published "speeches" by a certain current president (that's Obama) about Amerikkka (ie, "born in sin", etc, etc.))

Not to mention a current AG stating that even if he's found not guiolty/ innocent he's not being released
Presumption of WHAT !!?!

330 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:32:48pm

re: #327 albusteve

I'm commented out on this subject for awhile...read the new Krauthammer piece

Yep, I already have my flight booked to North Korea.

//

331 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:33:07pm

re: #327 albusteve

hmm...I haven't seen it..but I'll look it up...Thanks, albusteve.

332 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:33:11pm

re: #286 Gus 802

His new plan isn't going over very well with the Hot Airheads. Looks like Beck's ego is getting the better of him and his fans seem to resent his self proclaimed leadership role.

333 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:33:22pm

re: #324 albusteve

they'd probably win...something everybody here seems to dismiss

They wouldn't be an effective ticket--both bring in the same electorate.
(That's not counting other problems.)

334 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:33:24pm

re: #325 hillfolk

Welcome, "hatchling".

/

335 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:33:27pm

re: #325 hillfolk
Be careful . . . you're close to breaking the code ;)

336 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:34:00pm

re: #325 hillfolk

How is this determined to be a Nontroversy... It sort of reminds me of the Fake But Accurate meme with the Rather Gate episode.

Here you actually have scientists refusing to provide the raw data and computer code used to produce the time-series that represents the 'Average Global Temperature'. Those time-series have been used and reused and referenced in many of the studies that go into producing the IPCC documents. I was always taught that Science was about transparency and reproducable results. From reading the emails it appears to me that was not really what these guys were worried about here.

as for myself...I really don't care, it's all somebody elses' problem...hide your money

337 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:34:07pm

re: #332 Killgore Trout

His new plan isn't going over very well with the Hot Airheads. Looks like Beck's ego is getting the better of him and his fans seem to resent his self proclaimed leadership role.

Looks that way doesn't it? Well surprise, surprise. Sooner or later Beck is just going to reach the point of no return.

338 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:34:17pm

re: #325 hillfolk

How is this determined to be a Nontroversy... It sort of reminds me of the Fake But Accurate meme with the Rather Gate episode.

Here you actually have scientists refusing to provide the raw data and computer code used to produce the time-series that represents the 'Average Global Temperature'. Those time-series have been used and reused and referenced in many of the studies that go into producing the IPCC documents. I was always taught that Science was about transparency and reproducable results. From reading the emails it appears to me that was not really what these guys were worried about here.

Which email(s)? Example?

339 sattv4u2  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:34:47pm

re: #328 Cato the Elder

Pferdescheiße.

Et fu ta cousine germaine.

Crawl away, animalcule, flagellate!

Moi !?!?!

340 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:34:56pm

re: #328 Cato the Elder

Pferdescheiße.

Et fu ta cousine germaine.

Crawl away, animalcule, flagellate!

just what your brother would say...

341 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:36:20pm

re: #340 albusteve

just what your brother would say...

It's actually a Jekyll/Hyde kind of brotherhood. None of the characters I portray here exist outside my own multiple personalities. ;^)

342 Cathypop  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:37:32pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

It's actually a Jekyll/Hyde kind of brotherhood. None of the characters I portray here exist outside my own multiple personalities. ;^)

So you live in your own world and everyone likes you?

343 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:37:33pm

re: #333 Decatur Deb

They wouldn't be an effective ticket--both bring in the same electorate.
(That's not counting other problems.)

it's not them...it's their minions, right wing hacks...I've asked the question many times here if Republicans would support Paulians, Birchers and nirthers etc...nobody ever replies, as if it is impossible

344 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:37:55pm

re: #333 Decatur Deb

They wouldn't be an effective ticket--both bring in the same electorate.
(That's not counting other problems.)

A Palin/Johnston ticket, on the other hand, just might stand a chance.

345 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:38:18pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

It's actually a Jekyll/Hyde kind of brotherhood. None of the characters I portray here exist outside my own multiple personalities. ;^)

A voice in my head says I spend too much time at LGF. It has a Kentucky accent, like my wife's.

346 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:38:34pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Yep, I already have my flight booked to North Korea.

//

I can't even use chopsticks...isn't that how you eat worms?

347 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:38:41pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

A Palin/Johnston ticket, on the other hand, just might stand a chance.

Get the Springer vote.

348 Sharmuta  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:39:28pm

re: #332 Killgore Trout

His new plan isn't going over very well with the Hot Airheads. Looks like Beck's ego is getting the better of him and his fans seem to resent his self proclaimed leadership role.

They better be careful. He might get emotional.

349 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:40:13pm

re: #342 Cathypop

So you live in your own world and everyone likes you?

Except the multiples who hate me.

The really exciting part is when you find a multiple who is himself/herself multiple. You can get into some extremely recursive, labyrinthine adventures that way. Sometimes it takes years to sort them out. ;^)

350 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:40:27pm

re: #343 albusteve

it's not them...it's their minions, right wing hacks...I've asked the question many times here if Republicans would support Paulians, Birchers and nirthers etc...nobody ever replies, as if it is impossible

A credible scary compromise would be Romney/Jindal. It covers a lot of bases.

351 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:41:30pm

re: #322 sattv4u2

List of things that will be on trial
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

List of things that BHO campaigned on and against
GITMO
TORTURE
BUSH
CHENEY
THE CIA
The IRAQ WAR

And a lot of people will conclude, item by item :

GITMO (and military tribunals) - was miles better than letting KSM have a huge public platform to spout his jihad message

TORTURE - a lot will continue to regard waterboarding as NOT torture, and the more they see of KSM, the more they will be glad it was used on him to extract intelligence about Al Q objectives and organisation

BUSH and CHENEY - by 2010, lots of people will be asking what possible benefit America derives from Obama and Holder setting up a show-trial clearly aimed at the previous administration to assuage the DKos nutters - with an increasing realisation that Bush and Cheney showed far better judgment and historical/constitutional grounding in wanting to go the military-tribunal route

THE CIA - will be applauded for getting vital intelligence out of KSM

IRAQ war - hopefully will be shown to have been won by Bush's surge which Obama opposed.

...

Obama and Holder made a huge political misjudgment. It will carry on biting them.

352 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:41:49pm

re: #350 Decatur Deb

A credible scary compromise would be Romney/Jindal. It covers a lot of bases.

Mitt Romney doesn't bother me...he'd make a fine POTUS imo...Jindal is a lacky, not fit

353 Cathypop  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:42:44pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

Except the multiples who hate me.

The really exciting part is when you find a multiple who is himself/herself multiple. You can get into some extremely recursive, labyrinthine adventures that way. Sometimes it takes years to sort them out. ;^)

Recursive, labyrinthe adventures? HMMM? May have to try that in my little worl.

354 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:43:13pm

re: #352 albusteve

Mitt Romney doesn't bother me...he'd make a fine POTUS imo...Jindal is a lacky, not fit

He would give the religious right an excuse to vote Romney.

355 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:43:18pm

re: #350 Decatur Deb

A credible scary compromise would be Romney/Jindal. It covers a lot of bases.

Yes, but: a Catholic/Mormon ticket? Can you hear the conspiracy websites gearing up for that one? No respectable fundie/Pentecostalist/predispensational millennarian would ever go for it...

356 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:43:51pm

re: #353 Cathypop

Recursive, labyrinthe adventures? HMMM? May have to try that in my little worl.

You mean whorl?

357 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:45:23pm

re: #325 hillfolk

Shhh...best not to ask. You might get mistaken as a denier rather than someone honestly questioning a handful of scientists methods.

358 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:45:54pm

re: #354 Decatur Deb

He would give the religious right an excuse to vote Romney.

In that case, Huntsman/Jindal!

/

359 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:46:20pm

re: #356 Cato the Elder

You mean whorl?

Cato, you slug. I've been trying to remember the word "Millenarian" for days.
Yeah--forgot Jindal was Catholic, because of the voodoo.

360 spinmore  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:47:02pm

re: #357 ausadorGot Dat Right!

361 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:48:04pm

re: #358 Gus 802

In that case, Huntsman/Jindal!

/

When the GOP gets Huntsman, we Dems might have to break a sweat.

362 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:48:15pm

re: #355 Cato the Elder

Yes, but: a Catholic/Mormon ticket? Can you hear the conspiracy websites gearing up for that one? No respectable fundie/Pentecostalist/predispensational millennarian would ever go for it...

and to think JFK was not only Catholic but...IRISH!

363 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:49:27pm

re: #362 albusteve

and to think JFK was not only Catholic but...IRISH!

How else do you explain LBJ?

364 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:52:29pm

re: #363 Decatur Deb

How else do you explain LBJ?

how do you explain his vice presidency?...he couldn't stand that sissy JFK...the consumate Texas bulldog senator taking the back seat to a Harvard golden boy like that

365 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:53:38pm

re: #364 albusteve

how do you explain his vice presidency?...he couldn't stand that sissy JFK...the consumate Texas bulldog senator taking the back seat to a Harvard golden boy like that

Yes. He was the necessary un-Kennedy.

366 Gus  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:54:26pm

re: #365 Decatur Deb

Yes. He was the necessary un-Kennedy.

Southern Strategy

367 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:55:14pm

Also, thinking about the Show Trials (to begin in a couple of years I guess), I'm wondering if the Defense will be calling as a witness Eric Holder. The Defense team could then grill Holder as to just what he considers to be a "trial" -- lol -- and then Holder could give the court his "definition" of "t-r-i-a-l"... (that could prove oh so illuminating...or "re-defining American justice" for Holder's "trial of the century.")

368 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:55:25pm

re: #366 Gus 802

Southern Strategy

LBJ wanted the presidency but not the war that went with it...McNamara did him in

369 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:55:46pm

Any bets on how long it will be before Wind Rider's paranoia erupts in a flounce?

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:55:49pm

re: #321 Decatur Deb

I'd like to see "Sarah/Glenn 2016". Nothing would be sweeter than hearing the current administration called "The Good Old Days".

I'm sorry. I believe in New Sensitive Men and all, but I cannot stomach the idea of a VP who bursts into tears when his breakfast muffin is cold. Or the morning news is sad. Or he feels unhappy about the voters.

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:56:21pm

re: #324 albusteve

they'd probably win...something everybody here seems to dismiss

I do dismiss it. They haven't got the numbers.

372 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:58:32pm

re: #371 SanFranciscoZionist

I do dismiss it. They haven't got the numbers.

there are more conservatives than liberals in the US...always have been, but they tend not to vote, hence the indies get all the attention...the numbers are there if you jiggle them around...but that's the question in the first place

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:58:46pm

re: #346 albusteve

I can't even use chopsticks...isn't that how you eat worms?

Only capitalist exploiters from Shanghai use chopsticks, and no one below the rank of major gets any worms. You really aren't prepared for this, are you?

374 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 4:59:48pm

re: #350 Decatur Deb

A credible scary compromise would be Romney/Jindal. It covers a lot of bases.

I have many issues there, but the mere mention of it doesn't make me want to find a coyote to take me to Mexico City.

375 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:00:39pm

re: #373 SanFranciscoZionist

Only capitalist exploiters from Shanghai use chopsticks, and no one below the rank of major gets any worms. You really aren't prepared for this, are you?

no I am not, nor was I then...but I frequent Four Joys down the road once in a while...they have forks tho

376 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #367 J.S.

Also, thinking about the Show Trials (to begin in a couple of years I guess), I'm wondering if the Defense will be calling as a witness Eric Holder. The Defense team could then grill Holder as to just what he considers to be a "trial" -- lol -- and then Holder could give the court his "definition" of "t-r-i-a-l"... (that could prove oh so illuminating...or "re-defining American justice" for Holder's "trial of the century.")

I've been wanting to ask this question for a while, and probably the answer lives in the depths of our legal technicalities; but haven't these 5 pimps, already said "guilty"?

I thought that went straight to sentencing.

377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:00:50pm

re: #373 SanFranciscoZionist

"What's up with the Chinese still using chopsticks. I mean... they've seen the fork."
-Jerry Seinfeld

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:01:52pm

re: #372 albusteve

there are more conservatives than liberals in the US...always have been, but they tend not to vote, hence the indies get all the attention...the numbers are there if you jiggle them around...but that's the question in the first place

There's a difference between a conservative and someone who will vote in cold blood for that ticket.

379 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:02:23pm

re: #376 Naso Tang

I've been wanting to ask this question for a while, and probably the answer lives in the depths of our legal technicalities; but haven't these 5 pimps, already said "guilty"?

I thought that went straight to sentencing.

no they haven't...google Andrew McCarthy...he followed the hearings last week and put up a couple of nice posts for reference

380 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:02:31pm

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"What's up with the Chinese still using chopsticks. I mean... they've seen the fork."
-Jerry Seinfeld

They're not impressed.

381 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:02:56pm

re: #372 albusteve

there are more conservatives than liberals in the US...always have been, but they tend not to vote, hence the indies get all the attention...the numbers are there if you jiggle them around...but that's the question in the first place

"Conservative" means a lot of different thing to a lot of different people, I'm pretty sure it does not mean voting for a Palin/Beck ticket for a majority of Americans.

382 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:03:13pm

re: #376 Naso Tang

If you listen to the Defense attorneys, all of that previous stuff (charges laid, pleas put forward, any evidence heard at the beginning of the Military tribunal, etc.) has been thrown out. They're going to start "fresh."

383 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:03:43pm

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"What's up with the Chinese still using chopsticks. I mean... they've seen the fork."
-Jerry Seinfeld

Jerry had not seen how the Chinese actually USE chopsticks.

Try shoveling food into your mouth straight from the plate, with a fork.

384 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:03:59pm

re: #381 ausador

"Conservative" means a lot of different thing to a lot of different people, I'm pretty sure it does not mean voting for a Palin/Beck ticket for a majority of Americans.

I qualified that...go back and find it

385 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:06:24pm

re: #382 J.S.

If you listen to the Defense attorneys, all of that previous stuff (charges laid, pleas put forward, any evidence heard at the beginning of the Military tribunal, etc.) has been thrown out. They're going to start "fresh."

well our BO supporters here believe that Holder has some 'super evidence' to carry the prosecution past those minor details

386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:06:26pm

re: #383 Naso Tang

Like a rake?

387 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:06:29pm

re: #384 albusteve

I qualified that...go back and find it

I have to read more of this thread?

Waaahhh. :(

388 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:07:40pm

The Voice is getting louder--outta here.

389 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:07:50pm

re: #387 ausador

I have to read more of this thread?

Waaahhh. :(

no...the question is, what is mainstream conservatism?, and who represents it?...

390 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:08:10pm

OT: For anyone who wants a supremely entertaining read, may I recommend Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton's "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah"?

Burton was the guy who discovered the source of the Nile with Speke, and later entered on protracted lawsuits with his erstwhile partner.

He knew something like 60 languages, and passed himself off as a Dervish from Afghanistan to complete the perilous journey to Mecca in disguise.

He translated "A Thousand Nights and a Night" into English, as well as the Kama-Sutra. He was a rebel who somehow always managed to find a niche in the British Army and the Consular service.

He contributed to modern sword-fighting theory and practice, and was a practicing Sufi sword dancer whose body, autopsied at his death at the age of seventy, was covered with fine scars.

He tried every drug and sexual practice he could discover, and may have invented some new ones of his own.

One his way to Mecca he earned his living as a respected Eastern doctor and master of simples. He had to turn patients away, so popular were his services.

In Zanzibar he received a spear-thrust that pierced his cheeks from one side to the other, and fought on until his assailants were defeated, spear in face, before he paused to remove it.

His wife Isabel was a pious Catholic who thought him the most beautiful man she ever saw.

His Nile adventure was immortalized by the BBC and in a movie called "Mountains of the Moon", which gives a good sense of his lascivious, impious, try-anything-once nature.

He wrote dozens of books, including an account (together with Isabel, each from their own perspective) of the Passion Play at Oberammergau.

He finished his career as the Her Majesty's Consul at Trieste.

I venture to say that no man better exemplifies the Victorian age in all its contradictions. He did enough exploring, adventuring, surveying, spying, fighting, killing and trickstering for any ten men, and the same can be said of his writing. Twenty ordinarily gifted people would each be happy with one fortieth of his accomplishments.

One top of which, he is an engaging, humorous, descriptive, anecdotal, compelling author. His books are not polished like Gibbon's, but compel the reader onward with their vigor. He is one of the best Victorian masters of prose. He is classically educated. And sometimes you have to read a sentence thrice to see how multi-layered and racy it is.

He is buried in England in a marble museum formed like a Bedouin tent. Much of his unpublished work - alas! - was immolated by his wife, for the sake of what she considered his reputation. In those days they apparently had no concept of 100-year embargoes and bank vaults for manuscripts. The world is the poorer for that.

I cannot put down the "Pilgrimage", and recommend it to anyone with a taste for the picaresque combined with the true.

391 Wind Rider  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:08:15pm

Is it over the top to claim this is the 'nail in the coffin' for AGW? Probably. It's a vampire that's easily survived this kind of flesh wound before. Too many people have too much invested, and too much at stake to change course due to annoying 'no clothes' revelations.

Since in the discussion, I've been labelled a 'denier', let's take a stab at driving that label like I stole it.

I deny that I have much confidence at all in the work product of government lackeys - oh, and let us not make the mistake that the principals in this dust up were private citizens violated in their homes, but actually, many were individuals pulling a government issued salary doing work at government established institutions, delivering a desired product for their benefactors like good little courtesans.

Quite frankly, I'm rather unpersuaded, and under-impressed with the height, width, depth, or weight of the piles of minutiae these individuals may have collected, because after all, a pile of fertilizer, no matter how high, is still just a stack of cow turds. It's hard to render even a mild 'golf clap' for their amazing accomplishment of fashioning it into the shape of a Cadillac Escalade running over poor defenseless chipmunks.

I'm a denier, because I want actual answers, not the soup du jour proffered by those with an underlying Malthusian agenda; answers that can be used for proper engineering of effective solutions for the issue of making humans, and humanity, safer, healthier, and advance our chances for survival in a hostile and unforgiving universe.

I'm a denier of pet, 'politically correct' theories of causations from the marginals, which don't even come close to addressing, much less explaining, observed overall systemic (and I don't just mean on the third rock, folks) conditions, and do even less to address even the most inconsequential of the usually shrill and hysterically made forecasts of doom.

And yes, I'm a denier, because I'm aware that a lot of the people wanting to take control of this, that, and the other aspect of society, regulate our lives, and exercise the powers attendant of such an exalted position, have been attempting to do so for a long, long time, in many ways, before hitting a virtual grand slam with the 'sacre bleu', smack to the forehead realization that mankind was turning the planet into a toaster oven, and maniacally cranking it up to 'broil'.

I'm a skeptic, and a denier - personally maintaining a corollary to Godwin's Law, which follows the formula that phraseology in the format "if we don't do X, we're/someone/the children are all gonna DIE!!1!!1!1!!! in 2weeks/2years/20 years/200 years", renders whatever 'X' happens to be about as meaningful as the pronouncements of Charlie Brown's teacher.

And I'm a denier because although cynical to the core, I realize that Vladimir Iliych was absolutely correct in his astute observation of the presence in the world of what he termed useful idiots - and have a deep antipathy towards those that also recognize this truism, and use it for crass political gain or profit, consequences be damned.

I'm a denier - and damned proud of the fact, TYVFM.

392 brookly red  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:08:32pm

re: #385 albusteve

well our BO supporters here believe that Holder has some 'super evidence' to carry the prosecution past those minor details

/the jury isn't going to buy "Bush did it"...

393 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:08:57pm

re: #359 Decatur Deb

Cato, you slug. I've been trying to remember the word "Millenarian" for days.
Yeah--forgot Jindal was Catholic, because of the voodoo.

That's Catholic voodoo, Deb.

394 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:09:27pm

re: #389 albusteve

no...the question is, what is mainstream conservatism?, and who represents it?...

I'm going to hope not "Palin/Beck".

395 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:11:53pm

re: #386 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Like a rake?

Visualize it. There is actually a finesse to flicking a piece of whatever straight into your open mouth from anywhere on the plate, held level with your mouth. Try that with a fork/rake.

(Any Chinese viewers present, trust me this is all innocent fun; roasting)

396 albusteve  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:12:35pm

re: #394 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to hope not "Palin/Beck".

Beck is a pimp and apparently his endorsement is substantial...otherwise what's all the fuss?

397 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:13:03pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

Cato waxes eloquent about Brit explorer Richard Burton (not Liz Taylor's 3rd husband)


He was also a ferocious anti-Semite who believed in the Blood Libel.

398 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:13:05pm

re: #389 albusteve

no...the question is, what is mainstream conservatism?, and who represents it?...

We are, we do, we hope.

399 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:14:53pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

He is buried in England in a marble museum formed like a Bedouin tent. Much of his unpublished work - alas! - was immolated by his wife, for the sake of what she considered his reputation. In those days they apparently had no concept of 100-year embargoes and bank vaults for manuscripts. The world is the poorer for that.

Yeah, like his "Human Sacrifice among the Sephardine or Eastern Jews." You can find excerpts of it on Stormfront and Judicial-inc.

400 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:18:02pm

re: #397 Alouette

He was also a ferocious anti-Semite who believed in the Blood Libel.

I agree.

So was Ezra Pound, whose poem "An Immorality" I nonetheless have commanded to be chiseled in Old French script on my tombstone:

Sing we for love and idleness,
Naught else is worth the having.

Though I have been in many a land,
There is naught else in living.

And I would rather have my sweet,
Though rose-leaves die of grieving,

Than do high deeds in Hungary
To pass all men's believing.

If one were to dismiss everything ever done by every nineteenth-century anti-Semite, the shelves of the libraries would be half-empty.

No excuses for the attitude, but it was bred into them like we imbibe the Pledge of Allegiance (another suspect text).

401 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:18:32pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

hmmm...burning the manuscripts (reminds me of Max Brod and Kafka's last request...I believe some of this is still in litigation.)

402 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:20:36pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

Saved that for future reference. Did you ever sell books?

403 J.S.  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:20:50pm

re: #399 Alouette

wow -- well, I guess, that puts to rest the "Oh Noes! The Manuscripts! The Manuscripts! What a loss to the World!"
/

404 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:21:07pm

re: #390 Cato the Elder

Cato, can you recomend a biography of Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton?I just ordered "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah"
Thanks!

405 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:21:29pm

re: #399 Alouette

Yeah, like his "Human Sacrifice among the Sephardine or Eastern Jews." You can find excerpts of it on Stormfront and Judicial-inc.

I find this interesting. Why your sarc tone?

406 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:22:24pm

re: #400 Cato the Elder

If one were to dismiss everything ever done by every nineteenth-century anti-Semite, the shelves of the libraries would be half-empty.

No excuses for the attitude, but it was bred into them like we imbibe the Pledge of Allegiance (another suspect text).

It's like saying that everybody in the 19th Century was racist, but some racists just stood out with their racism.

407 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:22:54pm

re: #405 Naso Tang

I find this interesting. Why your sarc tone?

No sarc. He actually wrote that.

408 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:26:10pm

re: #399 Alouette

Yeah, like his "Human Sacrifice among the Sephardine or Eastern Jews." You can find excerpts of it on Stormfront and Judicial-inc.

Alouette, I do not deny or gloss over Burton's anti-Semitism. That does not stop me from enjoying his better writings. He was honest and un-PC in a way that is inconceivable today, and his portraits of the Near and Far East are indispensable to anyone who wants to know how it was and how we came to be where we are today.

Richard Wagner was one of the worst 19th-century anti-Semites, and yet I still get profound pleasure from his music. Nietzsche, who despised anti-Semitism, would take me to task for that. But Gustav Mahler, a Jew, learned much of his craft from Wagner and gave us nine symphonies to rival Beethoven's.

No one is all black or all white except Hitler, may his name vanish.

409 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:26:12pm

re: #391 Wind Rider

Wow, way to take the wind right out of the sails of anyone who has a legitimate question or concern. Sigh...thanks for turning it into another paranoid ranting and parody of honest concern. You think your actually supporting your viewpoint while in reality you make people dismiss it.

This is why we can't have nice things...

410 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:29:24pm

re: #404 Floral Giraffe

Cato, can you recomend a biography of Captain Sir Richard Francis Burton?I just ordered "A Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah"
Thanks!

My favorite is "The Devil Drives" - can't remember the author, but just plug that into Amazon and see what comes up.

411 Cato the Elder  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:30:12pm

re: #402 Naso Tang

Saved that for future reference. Did you ever sell books?

Yes. In Germany. Long ago.

412 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:32:03pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

Jaw-dropping stupidity.
Any idea of the carbon footprint of those incessant brush-fires?

Actually, burning wood, etc. isn't generally considered to affect the rise in atmospheric CO2 content, since wood's carbon content was extracted from the biosphere.
Fossil fuels add to the CO2 content because they add CO2 which wasn't naturally available in the carbon cycle, having been sequestered for eons.
Biofuels anyone?

413 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:36:21pm

re: #406 Alouette

It's like saying that everybody in the 19th Century was racist, but some racists just stood out with their racism.

So why bring it up as a concern if it was prevalent among his contemporaries? I get sick of the "Darwin was a racist, Churchill was a racist, any historical figure I want to drag through the mud was a racist" crap. They were pretty much ALL racists when compared to the racial views of today. So effing what?

414 Wind Rider  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:41:01pm

re: #409 ausador

Gosh darn it! You're right!

Glas we weren't talking about the really important issues of the day, like discussing Andrew Sullivan's fixation with Sarah Palin's uterus.

Whoa, dude, I coulda REALLY thrown the discussion outta whack!

Thanks for helping me be a better internet commentor!

415 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:47:27pm

re: #414 Wind Rider

Gosh darn it! You're right!

Glas we weren't talking about the really important issues of the day, like discussing Andrew Sullivan's fixation with Sarah Palin's uterus.

Whoa, dude, I coulda REALLY thrown the discussion outta whack!

Thanks for helping me be a better internet commentor!

"Wisdom is moderation" at least sometimes thats true, when you have no chance of winning a fight by frontal assault it is better to chip away at the flanks. It may take a lot longer but at least you have a chance of succeeding.

416 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:07:16pm

re: #410 Cato the Elder

Thank you very much!

417 cgrow  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:31:05pm

I don't know. This is getting a lot of press for a nontroversy. I've read some of the emails and, while I'll leave open the possibility that none of it is nefarious, it certainly sounds like there was some squelching of dissenting views, manipulation of data, and hiding of data going on. I don't think this story is going to die down. In fact, due in large part to the timing, I think this will become somewhat of a realoversy.

418 freetoken  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 6:49:36pm

re: #414 Wind Rider

You don't have a good grip on reality. Indeed, you're into IronFist territory.

419 Greengolem64  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:14:17pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

Aw, see, there you go, asking one of those questions...

Of course it is the temperature range between 1960-1990 averaged...

:))

GG

420 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:21:16pm

re: #13 Gus 802

A nontroversy based on a handful of people, a handful of emails, and all at one research institute. This would be like trying to judge the ulterior motives of the whole of the oil industry based on the correspondence between 4 people at Exxon.

Let the science work itself out and let the results fall as they may. To those that want to disprove AGW let them do so as the AGW proponents do -- with science. And this is not by conducting suspect pseudo-peer reviews such as those found at Watts Up With That.

Sorry Gus but I had to upding you for this.

421 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:23:43pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

The hacking doesn't change the data. The climate is changing.

Over 100 icebergs drifting to N.Zealand

Have the penguins declared war? Sounds like quite a large invasion flotilla.

422 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:26:29pm

re: #24 gegenkritik

I would rather see the politicians in Copenhage discuss other issues, for example the Iranian longing for nuclear weapons. If Tehran gets nukes, there will be definitely rapid climate change and warming in the Middle East.

Why can't both be done, interfere with Iran's plans and plan for the future?

423 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:28:25pm

re: #26 sattv4u2

They've crafted a strongly worded letter. What MORE do you want them to do??!?!?!
/

And what did the previous administration do?

424 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:31:59pm
425 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:36:34pm

re: #29 gamark


Now there's a statement I can agree with. BTW, has there ever been a time when climate was not changing?

No, but that's not the right question. What is causing the change, what direction is it going, how fast will it happen, will it affect us, and can we do anything about it, are the questions to be asked.

426 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:39:43pm

re: #425 b_sharp

No, but that's not the right question. What is causing the change, what direction is it going, how fast will it happen, will it affect us, and can we do anything about it, are the questions to be asked.

I hate to tell you this, but those questions have been asked and answers have been proposed. Where have you been hibernating?

427 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:45:24pm

re: #32 PowerFlip

What is the default tempature of the earth?

Why does that matter? We aren't concerned that the temperature is not at a default nor that it isn't at some optimum, what we are concerned about is the affect a rapid change will have on humans.

If you don't know the questions to be answered or the positions taken by science do you really have the room to assume the integrity to blindly question those who do?

The saying may be 'ignorance is bliss' but it's wrong.

428 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:50:17pm

re: #427 b_sharp

Ah, perhaps my post should be shunted one poster up.

429 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:50:47pm

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Oh my goodness, you kidding. A Christian runs the NIH. What flavor of Christian?

Hazel nut?

430 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:58:07pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

Actually, why?

To measure something as hotter, colder, faster, slower, brighter, darker there needs to be a baseline, no?

Certainly, but none of the comparisons you mention require a start at some default or ideal.

Implied in the original question is the claim we are worried about some divergence from an ideal. It shows an incredible ignorance or an intentional mischaracterization.

431 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:59:19pm

re: #68 spinmore

I don't believe that the earth is warming.

Good for you. I guess you deserve a cheap cigar.

432 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:06:26pm

re: #120 JohninLondon

Some people digging through the hacked / leaked material from CRU in the UK think that the emails are actually less serious than the indications that a lot of the data and programming at CRU is a total clusterXXX :

[Link: www.devilskitchen.me.uk...]

My bet ? Heads will roll at the CRU.

Which data and programming might that be?

433 Folded Flat  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:11:38pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

Anti-intellectualism and anti-science sentiments are not exclusive to the right.

Jenny McCarthy anyone?

434 joest1973  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:19:51pm

You call this a nontroversy, yet you think a couple Obama supporters yelling
at a Palin book signing was an indication of a huge amount of Palin fans that
were unhappy? Talk about a real nontroversy!

435 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:23:42pm

Here they come again.

436 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:48:56pm

re: #433 b_sharp

I've seen people work down from the top of the thread a lot faster than this. I admire the dedication, but you really need to get with the program and get to the present if you want an impact.

437 jim_beam  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:28:17pm

re: #435 Charles

You have completely missed the story here... This is not about corruption or collusion of scientists. It is about incompetance.

Please start reading the HARRY_READ_ME.txt. It is a huge file, but it is a fascinating look at the "broken databases" of Hadley CRU.

You know a lot about programming Charles, please have a look at the incredible incompetance on display. Harry is a hero for attempting to fix a broken system, but he is just one man...

438 lemonslice  Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:54:28pm

Another article from the pro-climate change hysteria and panic machine.

Who could have predicted that?

439 shai_au  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:24:24am

I usually refrain from commenting on stuff about climate change, because... well... I don't know enough about it. The science, I mean.

For me to understand it, either the people explaining it would have to dumb it down for me, which is less than optimal. Or, I would have to spend significant amounts of time learning about it and understanding it myself, which I do not want to do. To be honest, my interests lie elsewhere, and they take up enough of my time as it is.

So, I don't know. I am ignorant, but I console myself by saying that at least I know that I'm ignorant, and as such have no more authority to comment on this than, say, quantum physics.

I have to say, however, that I find the notion that the thousands of scientists who seem to support this theory of human-directed climate change are lying - that they're involved in some giant conspiracy to go against everything they've been taught as scientists, and hide the real facts from the public because of some murky agenda - to be pretty ridiculous. It's far-fetched, and doesn't do the "skeptics" any good whatsoever.

Yes, maybe they're hysterical, or alarmists, or whatever. But are they RIGHT? And if they are right, what should we be doing about it? I don't mind people being alarmists if there is cause for alarm!

440 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:37:10am

re: #439 shai_au

That's at least very honest of you, and I can understand your position. There are other areas I'd rather devote my time to as well, but I have given more time as of late to look into this issue, so I will let you in on my reading, if that's alright. Here is a link to a site with a lot of information, but it's not as overwhelming as it might seem. First try the introductory essay, then when your time permits, check the site for other essays that will give you a better idea of the science involved. Not too dumbed down, but not so technical you won't understand.

441 shai_au  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:43:49am

re: #440 Sharmuta

Cheers, thanks for that. I will have a look. It will at least be interesting reading, and I do like interesting reading!

I do not mind being ignorant about this or that, though. I figure, there are countless issues and areas of study, and all of us are going to be ignorant about everything but the smallest slice of what there is to know.

To get all philosophical... the best of us might eventually get out of the cave and into the sun, but even then they're not going to see everything.

442 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:50:34am

re: #441 shai_au

Very true, we can't know everything, but we also don't have to accept ignorance. I accept their are aspects of science I will never fully grasp, but I'll try to follow along and understand the best I can. Perhaps were this not an issue of great importance to future generations, I would accept I didn't know about it, but since it is important, I think it's fair to try to understand why. I'm glad you'll look at the links. There is some great stuff, and I bet you'll be surprised at what you learn. Cheers! :)

443 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:07:24am

Well this being my first post and all

This site has gone to the "wrong" side of the political spectrum, for mine- not that it matters a jot to anyone but me. It used to be on of the 2 -3 sites I went to see someone keep the bastards honest.

Now you have well and truely tipped your hand on this AGW "scandal".

Trivialise all you want. Minimise the impact, all you want.

I am a thinking human being and I can read. No amount of spin by you or anyone else will convince me that the rhetoric and science behind the AGW is at least flawed and needs to be reexamined

I mean George Monbiot, one of the fiercest media propagandists of the warming faith, admits he should have been more sceptical and says the science now needs to be rechecked by saying:

"It’s no use pretending that this isn’t a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced that they are genuine, and I’m dismayed and deeply shaken by them.

Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request.

Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics, or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign. Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed."

Monbiot has so belatedly gone onto say:

"I apologise. I was too trusting of some of those who provided the evidence I championed. I would have been a better journalist if I had investigated their claims more closely."

So should you.

444 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:07:55am

re: #432 b_sharp

Which data and programming might that be?

Try reading the link

445 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:13:07am

re: #442 Sharmuta

I accept their are aspects of science I will never fully grasp, but I'll try to follow along and understand the best I can. Perhaps were this not an issue of great importance to future generations, I would accept I didn't know about it, but since it is important, I think it's fair to try to understand why.

This is worth repeating. Anybody who wishes to be involved in decision making in their society owes it to themselves and to their fellows to try and make informed decisions.

446 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:26:21am

re: #443 yakabebe

Well this being my first post and all

This site has gone to the "wrong" side of the political spectrum, for mine- not that it matters a jot to anyone but me. It used to be on of the 2 -3 sites I went to see someone keep the bastards honest.

Now you have well and truely tipped your hand on this AGW "scandal".

Trivialise all you want. Minimise the impact, all you want.

I am a thinking human being and I can read. No amount of spin by you or anyone else will convince me that the rhetoric and science behind the AGW is at least flawed and needs to be reexamined

I mean George Monbiot, one of the fiercest media propagandists of the warming faith, admits he should have been more sceptical and says the science now needs to be rechecked by saying:

"It’s no use pretending that this isn’t a major blow. The emails extracted by a hacker from the climatic research unit at the University of East Anglia could scarcely be more damaging. I am now convinced that they are genuine, and I’m dismayed and deeply shaken by them.

Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released, and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request.

Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics, or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign. Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed."

Monbiot has so belatedly gone onto say:

"I apologise. I was too trusting of some of those who provided the evidence I championed. I would have been a better journalist if I had investigated their claims more closely."

So should you.


Do you have a link for the George Monbiot quote ?

As you say - he is a leading polemicist for AGW, with a fine track record in left-wing agitation. One of the simpler reasons for a lot of the scepticism in the UK is that people are fed up with the BBC and the Guardian wheeling out people like George Moonbat to try to stuff AGW down our throats. Even now, the BBC has reported that there has been hacking/leaks at the CRU in East Anglia, but its "environmental" reporters (arts graduates of course) have failed to mention even the gist, the flavour of the published emails.

They are too busy doing all the build-up speculation and propaganda for Copenhagen to do any real reporting on the leaks. Heck, even the NYT and WaPo have fuller reports than the BBC with 1000 journalists has provided.

If George Monbiot is truly expressing the doubts that you report - that should be big news at the BBC, which has spent so many years puffing him up as a pseudo-expert.

447 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:32:51am

re: #443 yakabebe

"the bastards"? Who are the "bastards"?

Kind of strong language for a first post.

Oh, and clearly you've not been reading as much around here as you claim, otherwise you'd know that LGF has a very pro-modern outlook, and that includes having a very high view of the role of science.

It also means being very aware of the culture war that is going on to undermine knowledge, a culture war that is full of tactics that we see now being deployed by the likes of Inhofe and his UK counterparts.

Contrary to the outsized machinations of the usual suspects on this subject (Inhofe, WUWT, Monckton, etc.), the CRU email content has not been shown to be very important in the big picture.

The absurdity of the climate denial industry to all of a sudden use Monbiot for support ranks right up there with something Vince McMahon would try to do!

Believe it or not, my understanding and acceptance of AGW has nothing to do with George Monbiot, now or previously. Nor Al Gore for that matter. Indeed, that the "skeptics" keep harping on political figures as such, rather than science, is a clue of what is going on here.

I've yet to see anything in the alleged email material that has any bearing on the theory behind AGW. Furthermore I dare you to show me where the data collection and storage efforts (by NOAA in the US) is somehow in error; and the same for any other data collected, such as ice coverage, etc.

At best what can be found is some evidence to forestall FOIA requests. And speaking as a citizen, I'm quite happy that (as far as the US participants involved) that people like McIntyre are resisted, since his (and those from people like him) requests are not in the spirit of (the US) FOIA but rather attempts at derailing research that is being conducted, by endlessly needling those doing the research.

Repeat: I applaud anyone who is resisting the efforts of McIntyre, Anthony Watts, and dilettante hacks who are attempting to undercut the work of scientists with worthless time consuming tasks.

As far as the CRU and whatever they choose to do with this mess (and how it fits into UK FOIA laws, about which I am uninformed), I'll leave that to the CRU management, along with how they pursue the lawbreaker who stole the emails.

448 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:46:02am

re: #447 freetoken

You have obviously missed the whole point.

What the emails etc show is that the CRU and others were trying to suppress criticism in journals of their theory, and that the CRU has consistently refused to release raw data on which much of the theory is based. It is a cardinal principle of scientific research that raw data should be released so that people can check the reasoning and conclusions.

...

It seems to me that people claiming that "ClimateGate" is a non-event are sounding like Baghdad Bob claiming that there were no US troops nearby.

And by the way - note that the CRU is at the University of East Anglia. That is a university that did not even exist until about 40 years ago, it hardly has any track record as a scientific powerhouse. If the leading unit on climate matters were at Cambridge, or Imperial College in London, one might be more willing to give them credence. And I bet Cambridge or Imperial College would not let their staff refuse to release raw data.

449 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:48:52am

re: #447 freetoken

Firstly, I was using a phrase that you're not familiar with. Here in Australia the Australain Democrats claim to fame back in the 80's was "Elect us and well keep the bastards honest". Take that as you will

Secondly. Nowhere in my post did I indicate I've "read alot" of what sposted here. Some. not alot. I have noted however the lean away from the midline towards the left. Maybe its me but there it is.

As far as the hack, the emails, and what it all means...again I assume we all will have our own opinion

I share with you these comments:

Neal, a commenter at Climate Audit, writes:
"People are talking about the emails being smoking guns but I find the remarks in the code and the code more of a smoking gun. The code is so hacked around to give predetermined results that it shows the bias of the coder. In other words make the code ignore inconvenient data to show what I want it to show. The code after a quick scan is quite a mess. Anyone with any pride would be to ashamed of to let it out public viewing. As examples [of] bias take a look at the following remarks from the MANN code files:

Here’s the code with the comments left by the programmer:
datathresh=datathresh
THIS WORKS WITH REMTS BEING A 2D ARRAY (nseries,ntime) OF MULTIPLE TIMESERIES WHOSE INFLUENCE IS TO BE REMOVED. UNFORTUNATELY THE IDL5.4 p_correlate FAILS WITH >1 SERIES TO HOLD CONSTANT, SO I HAVE TO REMOVE THEIR INFLUENCE FROM BOTH INDTS AND DEPTS USING MULTIPLE LINEAR REGRESSION AND THEN USE THE USUAL correlate FUNCTION ON THE RESIDUALS.
;
pro maps12,yrstart,doinfill=doinfill
;
Plots 24 yearly maps of calibrated (PCR-infilled or not) MXD reconstructions of growing season temperatures. Uses “corrected” MXD – but shouldn’t usually plot past 1960 because these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures.

And later, the same programming comment again in another routine:
Plots (1 at a time) yearly maps of calibrated (PCR-infilled or not) MXD reconstructions of growing season temperatures. Uses “corrected” MXD – but shouldn’t usually plot past 1960 because these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures. "

Watts comments:
"You can claim an email you wrote years ago isn’t accurate saying it was “taken out of context”, but a programmer making notes in the code does so that he/she can document what the code is actually doing at that stage, so that anyone who looks at it later can figure out why this function doesn’t plot past 1960. In this case, it is not allowing all of the temperature data to be plotted. Growing season data (summer months when the new tree rings are formed) past 1960 is thrown out because “these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures”, which implies some post processing routine."

Spin that, spin it to the moon if you want… Either the data tells the story of nature or it does not. Data that has been “artificially adjusted to look closer to the real temperatures” is false data, yielding a false result.

And from that the IPCC moved forward and now countries over the globe are making momentous decisions involving almost inconceivable amounts of money with absolutely unpredictable impacts on their nation's economies and way of life- and all... based upon data that has al least an air suspicion around it???

The data and the theory SHOULD be reexamined by some independent, TRANSPARENCY and WELL-REPRESENTED org.

Particularly seeing as that wascally wabbit - climate - simply REFUSES to meet the model's predictions.

450 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:52:42am

re: #449 yakabebe

You really believe that somebody, you or Anthony Watts, can take a few lines of comment from a huge computer model and make a case for anything???

451 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:54:55am

re: #448 JohninLondon

... and that the CRU has consistently refused to release raw data on which much of the theory is based.

That claim is just false.

FALSE.

That means not True.

The theory of AGW is not based on what you think it is.

452 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:58:29am

It appears that the BBC knew of at least one set of the hacked/leaked emails well over a month ago - but reported nothing, nada, zilch.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

...

As an example of how extreme the BBC is on AGW, tomorrow they have a TV programme entitled "Can Obama Save the Planet?". THAT is the level of AGW hysteria we are subjected to over here - and THAT is why a majority of the British public think it is all a load of cobblers.

453 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:02:16am

re: #450 freetoken

You have obviously not read the full Harry-file stuff.

So please stop making out you are some kind of expert.

454 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:04:25am

re: #453 JohninLondon

Tell me, JohninLondon, why are the mean temperatures of the Earth and the Moon different?

455 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:08:24am

At the end of the day the irrefutable fact is the model as purported to be "settled science" predicts that as CO2 increases so to will temp. But the CO2 levels have clearly jumped in the past few years but the temp has not

Clearly...CLEARLY...the model being used is ineffective, incomplete and fails in its mission.

How can a rational, thinking clever individual such as those here think of it i any other way unless they have somehow "fallen in love" with the theory. That, my good friend, is a pitfall that captures many on the stock market and seemingly has captured many here as well

Take a step back...take a deep breath and reexamine the data. Whats the problem with that???

Aside of course from the Gordon Browns of the world telling us we have "50 days to make a decision or we are all doomed"...

456 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:15:20am

johninlondon
heres the link for Monbiot

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

The full article does reveal the cognitive dissonance that must deafening to him at the moment as he still goes to bat for the AGW theory

Sad to watch really.

457 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:22:38am

re: #456 yakabebe

johninlondon
heres the link for Monbiot

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

I expect you will have seen that Monbiot recently failed to turn up to a debate with Ian Plimer ?

The full article does reveal the cognitive dissonance that must deafening to him at the moment as he still goes to bat for the AGW theory

Sad to watch really.

458 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:27:27am

re: #457 JohninLondon

Plimer is a kook and should be accorded no more respect (in the field of science) than Ken Ham.

459 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:29:03am

re: #456 yakabebe

johninlondon
heres the link for Monbiot

[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

The full article does reveal the cognitive dissonance that must deafening to him at the moment as he still goes to bat for the AGW theory

Sad to watch really.


I expect you will have seen that Monbiot checkened out of a debate with Ian Plimer ?

[Link: www.thepeoplesvoice.org...]

460 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:30:50am

re: #455 yakabebe

At the end of the day the irrefutable fact is the model as purported to be "settled science" predicts that as CO2 increases so to will temp. But the CO2 levels have clearly jumped in the past few years but the temp has not

That you believe, or pretend to believe, that there should be a 1:1 correspondence in time between changes in CO2 and surface temperature shows that you fail to accept the short term variability in the climate system which arises from the complexity of the system (i.e., the sheer number of interacting elements).

461 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:32:21am

re: #459 JohninLondon

Repeat, Plimer is a kook. For example, in his latest book he uses (as a source of information on the sun) someone who believes the sun is made of hot iron.

You have entered Ken-Ham la-la land.

462 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:34:58am

re: #458 freetoken

Plimer is a kook and should be accorded no more respect (in the field of science) than Ken Ham.

What an utterly stupid and blinkered remark.

Plimer is a scientist with lots of published papers.
He is also a noted anti-creationist - so that should put himin the good-guys camp ?

463 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:39:13am

re: #461 freetoken

Repeat, Plimer is a kook. For example, in his latest book he uses (as a source of information on the sun) someone who believes the sun is made of hot iron.

You have entered Ken-Ham la-la land.

Methinks you are suffering from Plimer Derangement Syndrome.

Monbiot chickened out of the debate with Plimer - because it would have been a contest between a leftie moonbat and a real scientist.

464 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:10:24am

re: #462 JohninLondon

Plimer is a scientist with lots of published papers.

He is a mining specialist, with papers on mining.

I asked you a simple question above (about why the Earth and the Moon have different mean temperatures), which you are ignoring, so I'll ask you an even simpler question.

Do you believe the sun is made out of molten iron?

465 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:53:53am

re: #464 freetoken"Plimer is a scientist with lots of published papers."

And I'd ask Al gore - his "credentialed" claim to fame?

466 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:00:16am

re: #458 freetoken

Plimer is a kook and should be accorded no more respect (in the field of science) than Ken Ham.

Before he started taking on the people promoting global warming hysteria, Plimer was a big debunker of creationists.
A public service in both cases.

467 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:14:50am

I have to say, this post of Charles', like the other comments I've read saying the leak is "no big deal", strikes me as AGW believers just whistling past the graveyard. The FOI2009 file is 63megs and there is a lot of stuff yet to sift through.
To my utter shock, even Monbiot thinks at least one head should roll:
Yes, the messages were obtained illegally. Yes, all of us say things in emails that would be excruciating if made public. Yes, some of the comments have been taken out of context. But there are some messages that require no spin to make them look bad. There appears to be evidence here of attempts to prevent scientific data from being released(2,3), and even to destroy material that was subject to a freedom of information request(4).
Worse still, some of the emails suggest efforts to prevent the publication of work by climate sceptics(5,6), or to keep it out of a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change(7). I believe that the head of the unit, Phil Jones, should now resign. Some of the data discussed in the emails should be re-analysed.
[Link: www.monbiot.com...]

468 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:30:21am

re: #467 nomra

Hmmm others have already made this point and cited Monbiot. Point still stands but sorry for the repetition. I should read the whole thread next time.

469 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:53:43am

At last - a senior journalist at the BBC (a freelancer) runs a short but real debate on AGW.

(Andrew Neil was formerly editor of the UK Sunday Times)

Calls are growing for a public enquiry into what CRU at East Anglia were up to - even endorsed by the pro-AGW Prof in this debate who is chief scientific advisor at a major government department.

Wheels coming off the "the science is all settled" wagon ?

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

470 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:19:55am

re: #443 yakabebe,
# 467 nomra

Did you not read the Monbiot piece? It's SATIRE!

He "quotes" a damaging email that begins with:

"Gentlemen, the culmination of our great plan approaches fast. What the Master called “the ordering of men’s affairs by a transcendent world state, ordained by God and answerable to no man”, which we now know as Communist World Government, advances towards its climax at Copenhagen. For 185 years since the Master, known to the laity as Joseph Fourier, launched his scheme for world domination, the entire physical science community has been working towards this moment."

You could at least read your sources before you link to them to make sure they really support what you're saying.

471 RogueOne  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:43:35am

re: #470 Yanqui in Europe

You skipped the whole first part of his post. He's deadly serious up until this point:

But do these revelations justify the sceptics’ claims that this is “the final nail in the coffin” of global warming theory?(8,9) Not at all. They damage the credibility of three or four scientists. They raise questions about the integrity of one or perhaps two out of several hundred lines of evidence. To bury manmade climate change, a far wider conspiracy would have to be revealed. Luckily for the sceptics, and to my intense disappointment, I have now been passed the damning email which confirms that the entire science of global warming is indeed a scam.

You could at least develop your reading comprehension skills to make sure the material you are quoting actually supports your argument.

472 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:50:21am

471 RogueOne

How do you know he's deadly serious up to that point? Did he tell you that? Can you read his mind.

As far as I know, there's no such genre as "partial satire". The column is a satire, all of it. You can't just pick some phrases that you like out of a satire and say, "Look, this thing here he *really* meant." Doesn't work that way.

473 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:50:31am

re: #470 Yanqui in Europe

re: #443 yakabebe,
# 467 nomra

Did you not read the Monbiot piece? It's SATIRE!

He "quotes" a damaging email that begins with:

"Gentlemen, the culmination of our great plan approaches fast. What the Master called “the ordering of men’s affairs by a transcendent world state, ordained by God and answerable to no man”, which we now know as Communist World Government, advances towards its climax at Copenhagen. For 185 years since the Master, known to the laity as Joseph Fourier, launched his scheme for world domination, the entire physical science community has been working towards this moment."

You could at least read your sources before you link to them to make sure they really support what you're saying.

Rubbish, you have it backasswards !

The first part of Monbiot's article is serious, it accepts there has been a load of skullduggery by people at CRU and elsewhere in the AGW world - and concludes with a call for the head of the CRU to resign.

But Monbiot must still cling to the AGW theory, after all the years he has invested in it, all the fees he has earned by writing and broadcasting about it, so he then says he needs more evidence to PROVE the case against AGW. So he pens the ludicrous email you quote.

But that is at the latter part of Monbiot's article. The first part is deadly serious.

474 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:05am

I mean, the TITLE of the thing is "The Knights Carbonic", for crying out loud. That announces right at the outset that what's to come is not to be taken seriously.

475 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:32am

re: #472 Yanqui in Europe


It is deadly serious because Monbiot is not such a fool as to use all those paras that could be quoted against him unless he really meant them.

But carry on clutching at straws if you need to.

476 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:54:00am

#473 JohninLondon

So, let me see if I understand. Monbiot writes a column titled "The Knigths Carbonic", which is obviously satirical. You choose some sentences that you like, and you insist that *those* sentences express his real views, even though the column is obviously satirical?

Let me just as you this: How do you know they express his real views? Did he tell you that? If not, how do you know?

477 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:21am

If Monbiot did not regard the CRU stuff as serious, how come he ends up after his unfunny satire with

"the hacked emails are a hard knock"

If it was just a glancing blow he would not have written the stuff in the first part.

Monbiot's words are already being used against him - and he is well clued up on the ongoing debate. If he did not mean them or he feels he was misunderstood - where's the retraction or gloss ?

478 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:01:58am

re: #476 Yanqui in Europe

Rubbish.

It is not just a few sentences, it is the clear sense of the whole of the first part of Monbiot's article, ending with a call for the director of the CRU to resign. Monbiot is stating clearly that he feels seriously let down by those scientists.

If there was any misunderstanding about the words, any room for doubt about what Monbiot meant in his article yesterday in the Guardian, he could have penned a quick piece for today's edition. I can't see anything there today.

479 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:09am

re: #476 Yanqui in Europe

#473 JohninLondon

So, let me see if I understand. Monbiot writes a column titled "The Knigths Carbonic", which is obviously satirical. You choose some sentences that you like, and you insist that *those* sentences express his real views, even though the column is obviously satirical?

Let me just as you this: How do you know they express his real views? Did he tell you that? If not, how do you know?

Would you accept that Monbiot meant what he said if he confirms exactly that ?

OK, as you seem to have walked into a big hole - here is the story from yesterday's Guardian - with a completely different title. Followed by hundreds of comments yesterday and today, including responses by Monbiot himself.

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

And if you look through the comments, Monbiot says several times that he meant what he said about being misled, and about the director of the CRU resigning.

(Or is someone hacking the comments pages at the Guardian ???)

Please confirm that you now accept that Monbiot was serious in the early part of his article yesterday.

480 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:47am

#478 JohninLondon

"...it is the clear sense of the whole of the first part of Monbiot's article, ending with a call for the director of the CRU to resign."

Uh-huh. Followed up by something completely absurd. Where does your "clear sense" come from? How do you have such insight into Monbiot's thoughts?

Just because you *like* what he's saying in a satirical piece is no reason to assume he really means it. Knowing Monbiot's work a bit I would certainly guess that he doesn't mean the call for resignation to be taken seriously. But I am not 100% sure of this. What I find startling is that some people feel 100% sure that it is serious -- even though it occurs in a satirical piece! You should at least withhold judgment in a case like this.

481 Yanqui in Europe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:16:11am

#479 JohninLondon

OK, I'll accept that as evidence. I was wrong.

But the point that you shouldn't assume that something said in a satirical piece is meant seriously still stands. Now you've given me actual evidence. I accept it.

482 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:28am

re: #481 Yanqui in Europe

Thanks, that was gracious - and rather unusual these days.

483 mph  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:49:33am

The same Michael Mann who said:

I think we have to stop considering "Climate Research" as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal.

As Robert Tracinski (not a religious rightist) notes ([Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Note the circular logic employed here. Skepticism about global warming is wrong because it is not supported by scientific articles in "legitimate peer-reviewed journals." But if a journal actually publishes such an article, then it is by definition not "legitimate."
484 longlivethe80s  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:08:25am

Fellers and Ma'ams, you're assuming(many of you)the pro-AGW science is accurate...they're not proving anything except that they have an enormous talent for dreaming up crap to charge me and my kids, to "fix"...please pull your heads out of the sand and get some fresh air. Besides, Monckton reminds me of Marty Feldman, and I miss him.

Has anyone considered that the email authors have been keeping things tidy about their bs campaign? They're protecting their phony-baloney jobs gentlemen(Mel Brooks day for some reason)crooks all.

I'll believe all of your pro-arguments/sentiments when ONLY retired un-affiliated(to the UN, any university, corporation or gubment etc) true experts weigh the data and make a proclamation...pull them out of their gardens, Denny'suz, easy chairs, whatever and...only Americans...that's right I said it..since Uncle Sam will take the biggest screwing if this crap gets accepted and taxed...we get to decide. We'll be at least as honest as say, the Nobel Committee...Oh and HOCKEY SHTICK SCAM MANN for the love of Mike people...they're swindlers!!

Peace

485 kained  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:41:00am

I rarely post but recently i have been disappointed by the direction the blog has taken in relation to AGW.

Charles you try to take a fair and balanced response to the political issues of the day but you seem to have lost your interrogative approach when talking about the AGW issue.

The scientific method was developed in part to remove the human element from scientific discovery but the emails show all to well that the human element is still influencing the science supporting AGW.

All i would want is that the original public sponsored data be released under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act so that the core principles of the scientific method be adhered to.

If the publicly sponsored institutes choose not to release the data and in fact evade FoI request, edit data that doesn't support their position and actively engage in suppressing alternate hypotheses that may be supported by the withheld data then how are we to trust such public institutes that wish to advise public policy?

486 shmuli  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:29:05am

Well, it was bound to happen sometime. You can only support the Global Warming Industry on government money and bad science for just so long:

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

Congress is already calling for investigations. You can be sure that this news will hurt the Global Warming Hysterics' cause. Of course Charles and the warming alarmists want to play down this development. The net upshot of this scandal is greater public awareness of the politicization of AGW "science".

IMO, this scandal will result in (well deserved) and lasting damage to the scientific community. Pity.

487 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:09:44am

re: #486 shmuli

Well, it was bound to happen sometime. You can only support the Global Warming Industry on government money and bad science for just so long:

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

Congress is already calling for investigations. You can be sure that this news will hurt the Global Warming Hysterics' cause. Of course Charles and the warming alarmists want to play down this development. The net upshot of this scandal is greater public awareness of the politicization of AGW "science".

IMO, this scandal will result in (well deserved) and lasting damage to the scientific community. Pity.

No... James Inhofe is calling for investigations, not "Congress." And Inhofe is one of the craziest theocratic nuts who denies global warming is occurring, so that's no surprise at all.

Go ahead and continue freaking out over nothing, though -- it's a winning strategy!

488 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:11:48am

I see the deniers have been hard at work in this thread, dinging down anyone who tries to talk sense. Typical.

489 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:13:43am

And freetoken is absolutely right, even if people don't want to hear it -- Ian Plimer is a kook with ZERO scientific credibility.

490 shmuli  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:18:02am

Charles --

Sorry. Just as you think I am wrong, I disagree with you on AGW.

Inhofe is in Congress. If he calls for hearings, there will be hearings. And as a matter of fact, I do not share your view on Inhofe, but the bad news just keeps coming. This is just the start. Perhaps it will at least sink the absurd Cap and Trade bill.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Best.

491 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:31:17am

re: #391 Wind Rider

I'm a skeptic, and a denier - personally maintaining a corollary to Godwin's Law, which follows the formula that phraseology in the format "if we don't do X, we're/someone/the children are all gonna DIE!!1!!1!1!!! in 2weeks/2years/20 years/200 years", renders whatever 'X' happens to be about as meaningful as the pronouncements of Charlie Brown's teacher.

Applause. And an upding for the reference to Malthusiasm.

492 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:32:28am

"deniers"..."sceptics"... derogatory terms always being thrown around.

Those terms apply just as well to the warmists' attitudes to anyone who challenges them.

And "kook" ? If anyone was ever a kook, it is George Monbiot, a far-left polemicist. Who chickened out of a full debate with Plimer.

And that is one point of the whole argument - where is the DEBATE ? Virtually never in the MSM, here or in the US. Where is the chance to see senior scientists arguing their corner openly, in full DEBATE ?

Or is the public just too ignorant to be trusted to watch such a debate seriously ?

493 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:33:44am

re: #485 kained

I rarely post but recently i have been disappointed by the direction the blog has taken in relation to AGW.

Charles you try to take a fair and balanced response to the political issues of the day but you seem to have lost your interrogative approach when talking about the AGW issue.

This is complete nonsense. What has REALLY happened is that I made a determined effort to educate myself about this subject, by reading the scientific literature and as much other material I could find, starting over a year ago. I began this process as a climate skeptic, but I was simply FORCED by the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence to accept that global warming is really happening, and that humans are responsible for it.

So, far from "losing my interrogative approach," the truth is exactly the opposite. I now accept the science of global warming precisely BECAUSE I value objectivity and factual accuracy.

Sorry this doesn't align with your prejudices, but the idea that the scientific community is engaged in a massive conspiracy to defraud the entire world is so ludicrous I find it hard to believe anyone actually thinks it.

But they do, obviously. Some of these people are posting in this thread.

494 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:36:08am

Charles

Isn't it a touch arrogant to claim that just because you have reached a conclusion - everyone else is wrong ? Are you omniscient or something ?

495 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:37:22am

re: #492 JohninLondon

And "kook" ? If anyone was ever a kook, it is George Monbiot, a far-left polemicist. Who chickened out of a full debate with Plimer.

And yet, here you are -- telling us we should accept Monbiot's opinion on the CRU emails. Because it agrees with you.

Your definition of "kook" seems to be very flexible. If they agree with you, they're righteous and upstanding. If they disagree, they're kooks.

Plimer is a kook for many reasons, and several of them have already been explained in this thread.

496 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:38:14am

re: #494 JohninLondon

Charles

Isn't it a touch arrogant to claim that just because you have reached a conclusion - everyone else is wrong ? Are you omniscient or something ?

Try responding to the things I actually write, instead of the things that exist only in your own head.

497 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:41:04am

Monbiot was not ex0ppressing any opinion on the scence itself. He was expressing his strong annoyance at the way some of the scientists appear to have been acting. Stating that he feels to have been misled. Annoyance to the extent of saying the CRU director should now resign.

Over there you are fortunate not to have to endure Monbiot on the airwaves - he started out as a kook long before the AGW debate.

498 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:42:03am

re: #497 JohninLondon

Over there you are fortunate not to have to endure Monbiot on the airwaves - he started out as a kook long before the AGW debate.

So why are you taking his opinion at face value now?

499 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:43:33am

I accept what Monbiot is saying because it appears to tally exactly with what has been revealed from the CRU material.

500 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:43:42am

re: #492 JohninLondon

And that is one point of the whole argument - where is the DEBATE ? Virtually never in the MSM, here or in the US. Where is the chance to see senior scientists arguing their corner openly, in full DEBATE ?

Or is the public just too ignorant to be trusted to watch such a debate seriously ?

And this is just utterly ridiculous.

There's nothing BUT debate about climate change, in every branch of the media. I don't know what planet you're living on, but here on Earth the debate over climate change is everywhere.

501 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:48:26am

re: #496 Charles

Charles

You surely must agree that you frequently express derision for anyone who does not agree with you on AGW. That's your privilege, of course, especially on your own blog - but your derision does not necessarily make you right.

As I said earlier - what is so often missing is a sense of debate.

There are many minds just as serious as yours that have reached conclusions different from yours. I don't see that endless scorn really helps either case.

502 joest1973  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:48:46am

Let's call a truce then. I want a reset on of the scientific data. Why did global warming in the 70's turn into global warming in the 90's. Why is global warming now labeled climate change?

Let get another 10-20 years of data and have believers and non-believers make the case with the data. Oh and lets keep Al Gore out of the picture.

503 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:50:09am

re: #500 Charles

Over here the main media are the BBC TV and radio channels - which have as a matter of policy declared that in effect there is no debate.

504 last turnip  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:53:47am

I agree with Kained. This blog used to be more balanced. With respect to global warming, if anyone questions it, that person is attacked. There is one truth, one right position, and it goes like this: GW is real, it is man's fault, and man has the power to stop climate change. However, the uncovered emails among the pro GW scientists reveal that there are, indeed, scientists who disagree with the GW "truths". Scientists have requested data to use in fact checking, which requests are denied. ProGW scientists are actively blocking publication of the "doubters". This is censorship in the scientific community which is reprehensible. Let the facts speak, not the people. We all need to know the truth, not what people have decided is the truth. re: #485 kained

505 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:58:37am

re: #502 joest1973

Let's call a truce then. I want a reset on of the scientific data.

Sure, that's a reasonable solution. Let's just throw out all the scientific data on global warming and start over from scratch, because of some emails from a decade ago.

/eye roll

506 bunnymud  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:59:14am

re: #2 eric

On some sites this is proof that the entire climate change industry is built on a scam from a few English scientists. This will wither on the vine in a week.

As will the climate summit...hopefully

507 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:59:45am

re: #504 last turnip

I agree with Kained. This blog used to be more balanced.

You mean, it used to confirm your prejudices against global warming.

508 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:02:07am

re: #504 last turnip

My read on this is that the conflict is similar to the creationist (Discovery Institute version) objection to studying human evolution. The political stance that 'no one is going to tell me I have to change my energy expenditure' drives objection to any study that show that humans might be having a negative effect on their own environment, and flows from there. This blog is not telling anyone they have to accept a particular political solution to the problem.

509 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:02:55am

These emails clearly show several things:
- Data manipulation to insure conformity to desired results
- Attempts to distort the peer review process to prevent publication of papers contrary to their positions
- Attempts to circumvent the Freedom of Information requests for data.

Real science advances by open debate, skepticism, and free sharing of data. These emails show a concerted effort to subvert this process

How ANYONE can pass off such scientific malfeasence as a "Notroversy" clearly does not understand the scientific method or is blinded by their biases, or both.

510 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #509 FigJam

No, they don't show any of those things, and asserting that they do doesn't make it true.

511 last turnip  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:05:37am

Imagine if the emails contained information that indicated that the GW doubters had conspired to withhold their data from fact checking endeavors, had modified data to support their models, and had censored publication of the GW believers. Would that be a scandal worthy of attention, or would it be dismissed as this one here is? The actions and tactics themselves are reprehensible, whether you agree with the viewpoints or not.

512 shmuli  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:07:10am

This will definitely NOT be a "Nontroversy". Even if you are right, Charles, on AGW, the science and the cause will be severely damaged.

LOTS of us have also spent much time on this issue, and we disagree with you on the same merits.

I do not think many are alleging that scientists are engaged in a massive conspiracy. We only expect that they are defending their reputations, work, education, jobs and grants. This is just called self-interest, and we ALL do it when presented with information which is contrary to our own information, beliefs and bias. The history of scientific endeavor is replete with serious errors motivated by belief systems, politics and obsession with power and celebrity. With Al Gore, environmental extremists, the UN and the (idiotic) media on your side, you cannot blame others for being skeptical. There is, despite your position, science on BOTH sides.

The $ poured into supporting AGW science is astounding, dwarfing international funding of many other scientific endeavors. This is where the jobs are. Additionally, the political interests are obvious, clearly favoring the expansion of control over industry, economies and individuals.

I think kained and JohninLondon are spot on.

513 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:12:02am

re: #508 jaunte

This blog is not telling anyone they have to accept a particular political solution to the problem.

Exactly right. I haven't taken positions in favor of any particular legislation, or any proposed solutions. My main concern is to present factual, scientific evidence, to try to get as many people as possible to see that this is NOT some huge mad science conspiracy.

The climate denial industry -- and yes, there definitely IS a climate denial industry, well funded and very persistent -- uses dishonest and misleading tactics to confuse people. Most people don't have the time or the motivation to really research the issues for themselves, and a lot of this stuff requires some thought and attention to understand. It's much easier to listen to people like James Inhofe, Steve McIntyre, and James Watt, because they're telling you everything's fine, no need to worry, it's just some crazy scientists.

It's not fine, and there is real need to worry.

514 last turnip  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:12:22am

Charles -- No, that is not what I meant when I said that this site used to be more balanced. I meant that this blog used to be more keen on the facts, rather than people associated with the facts. The blog expresses opinions about GW, Sarah Palin that are quite emotionally stoked. That is where the sense of balance is lost, when emotionality replaces fact as the central point. If somebody expresses an opinion on this blog it is often the person (not the opinion) that is attacked. This is common in blogs, but it used to be less common here. There is more name calling than conversation it seems to me. re: #507 Charles

515 Dom  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:13:15am
SA: Is this much adieu about nothing, again?


The phrase as immortalised by Shakespeare is "Much Ado About Nothing", but Googling the "adieu" version suggests it has been used a) appropriately and deliberately such as in reference to the last episode of Seinfeld and b) by people who, like Andrew Freedman or some subeditors, made a simple mistake. This isn't as important as the end of the world but I did it anyway.

re: climate science, common sense and history suggests that all this new technology could affect climate pretty severely, and then also that what we think is the end of the world, especially with new technology, usually isn't. Also, non-scientists are not much to go off, and many are hysterical and all over this issue. So I don't want to bet against the scientists and I also maintain doubts. Solutions that involve more tinkering kind of beggar belief but objectively my disbelief is nothing. Leaving this to the experts.

516 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:16:47am

re: #510 Charles

No, they don't show any of those things, and asserting that they do doesn't make it true.

Charles, I'm sorry but you are flat wrong about that, and your backhanded dismissal does not negate what I have said. I would post links to specific emails supporting these assertions, but you have already stated that you refuse to allow links to "downloads of illegally obtained data". So you have constructed a convenient little sandbox here...you state your position, yet prevent skeptics from producing contrary evidence.

517 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #516 FigJam

So you have constructed a convenient little sandbox here...you state your position, yet prevent skeptics from producing contrary evidence.

Right. I'm trying to suppress the discussion. (He said in comment #516, in the third discussion thread, with over 2000 comments total.)

That's just how evil I am.

And yes, if you post a link to the stolen data, I'll delete it and block your account. I'm not going to let LGF be used to circulate illegally obtained files.

518 ovoid  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:21:03am

I am a denier, or at least an agnostic on the issue. I, like Charles made a determined effort to educate myself, but unlike Charles, I have not been forced to believe that our (real) current warming period is either catastrophic or man-made. I, like Charles, would bristle at the thought that I had lost my interrogative approach, because of an opinion I came to after some investigation, but at the same time I resent the implication that I must therefore NOT value objectivity and factual accuracy.

Some of the quotes from the hacked emails may not be as damning as my denier brethren claim; it is a complicated issue, and context is sometimes hard to discern. At the same time, what is clear is a desire for the warming advocates to hold back data, make it politically difficult for 'deniers' to publish, to plot to delete emails and otherwise thwart legal efforts to get at data under Freedom Of Information acts in both the United States and abroad.

It is not necessary to postulate a worldwide conspiracy in order to question a matter of 'settled science'. Proponents of a theory can tilt data analysis either consciouly or subconsciously to advance their theory. Much of the global warming argument depends on dendrochronology - the reading of tree rings to determine temperatures in the past. Statistician Stephen McIntyre demonstrated how the famous 'hockey stick' graph was tainted by the improper use of an analytic method which produced hockey-stick graphs on purely random data.

The selection of which trees are used as proxies and which are rejected and why - is an important one, and this is among the information that McIntyre and others have sought for years to be made public. Many published studies all rely on this same data and so form an echo chamber of sorts producing a 'consensus.'

The continued stonewalling on release of this data, to the point of conversations about deleting emails and thwarting FOI requests should be unsettling to anyone seeking truth on this issue.

519 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:25:10am

Postulating a worldwide conspiracy of scientists to prop up AGW and suppress contrary ideas is a stretch, but that's where we seem to be headed.

520 Dom  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:26:04am

re: #518 ovoid

I am a denier, or at least an agnostic on the issue.

Agnostic you may be, but you mention your "brethren deniers" and "a desire for the warming advocates to hold back data" which obviously is interesting since we want credible data. Are you a scientist?

521 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:28:15am

re: #517 Charles

Right. I'm trying to suppress the discussion. (He said in comment #516, in the third discussion thread, with over 2000 comments total.)

That's just how evil I am.

And yes, if you post a link to the stolen data, I'll delete it and block your account. I'm not going to let LGF be used to circulate illegally obtained files.

I did not say you were trying to suppress discussion. I simply pointed out that you are preventing anyone who is skeptical of your position from linking to the evidence (i.e. the actual emails) that supports their contrary view.

522 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:30:27am

re: #518 ovoid

The continued stonewalling on release of this data, to the point of conversations about deleting emails and thwarting FOI requests should be unsettling to anyone seeking truth on this issue.

And anyone seeking the truth should also be aware that the CRU has been absolutely deluged with FOI requests from the denial industry, so many that it has a serious impact on their ability to do their research. I can certainly understand how this might start to get people a little defensive.

Furthermore, the reason why people like Steven McIntyre, Watt, Monckton, Plimer, etc. etc. are demanding access to this data is NOT in order to honestly analyze it -- they're on hunting expeditions to find bits they can pull out of context and make look as bad as possible. Again, it's not hard to understand how scientists might be resistant to sharing their data with people whose only purpose is to cherry pick.

I happen to believe that for political purposes, it would be better for them to share it anyway and deal with the fallout, rather than resist and be painted as trying to hide something. But the tactics of the denial industry are extremely underhanded and anyone who's really interested in seeking the truth should be aware of that.

523 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:31:53am

re: #521 FigJam

I did not say you were trying to suppress discussion. I simply pointed out that you are preventing anyone who is skeptical of your position from linking to the evidence (i.e. the actual emails) that supports their contrary view.

Those files are stolen. I don't know why this is difficult for you to grasp. There are plenty of websites without ethics where people can find links to the original files.

524 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:34:04am

I would wager that George Monbiot has spent far more time looking at the emails than anyone here. And Monbiot is fiercely critical of the behaviour of some of those scientists, thinks they have been behaving badly, deliberately misleading people - and he wants the CRU director to resign.

The aspect of the leaks discussions that I have found most troubling was the refusal over many years to release the raw data on the tree rings - a key ""plank" in the AGW case.

"Nontroversy" my backside.

525 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:37:36am

re: #522 Charles


Charles

It really does not matter that someone requesting access to raw data may have opposing ideas. It is a core principle of current scientific method and research that raw data should always be made available. Period.

The record shows that it has not been made available, in spite of requests going back many years.

526 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:37:56am

re: #524 JohninLondon

I would wager that George Monbiot has spent far more time looking at the emails than anyone here. And Monbiot is fiercely critical of the behaviour of some of those scientists, thinks they have been behaving badly, deliberately misleading people - and he wants the CRU director to resign.

The aspect of the leaks discussions that I have found most troubling was the refusal over many years to release the raw data on the tree rings - a key ""plank" in the AGW case.

"Nontroversy" my backside.

And yet, I'm pretty sure that George Monbiot still believes in global warming. I would wager Monbiot has spent more time studying that issue than anyone here, and he's thoroughly convinced that global warming is happening.

You'll take Monbiot's word as an expert when he argues your side, but you reject everything else he says out of hand.

527 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:40:40am

re: #523 Charles

Those files are stolen. I don't know why this is difficult for you to grasp. There are plenty of websites without ethics where people can find links to the original files.

Yes, Charles, I grasp that the files were stolen, but that's really not the point. Don't you grasp the conundrum that you present to skeptics here? That is, how to present evidence, in this case the emails, supporting a contrary view?

528 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:41:03am

By the way, I've spent several hours now reading through the emails and looking through the files. And I disagree with Monbiot that anyone should resign. I don't see anything in here that even comes close to rising to that level.

529 captdiggs  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:42:08am

There should be a thorough and impartial investigation of the allegations concerning CRU.
All files should be opened and all data made available to some investigative body as well as the public.
I'm not sure just exactly what that investigative body would be, considering the international aspects of this, but it should be done, if for no other reason than to quell what will be lingering doubts as to the integrity of the information distributed by CRU.

530 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:43:25am

re: #527 FigJam

Yes, Charles, I grasp that the files were stolen, but that's really not the point. Don't you grasp the conundrum that you present to skeptics here? That is, how to present evidence, in this case the emails, supporting a contrary view?

No, I don't. There are excerpts from the emails all over the web. And there are plenty of unethical websites that are circulating the files. If you want to read the originals, it isn't hard to find them. I have no obligation to post them here, and in fact, it would be unethical to do so. And I'm not going to.

I condemned it when Sarah Palin's email account was hacked, and I wouldn't have posted those emails either.

If you're trying to convince me to do something else, you are wasting your time, and starting to get on my nerves.

531 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:51:52am

re: #526 Charles

And yet, I'm pretty sure that George Monbiot still believes in global warming. I'll bet Monbiot has spent more time studying that issue than anyone here, and he's thoroughly convinced that global warming is happening.

You'll take Monbiot's word as an expert when he argues your side, but you reject everything else he says out of hand.

You don't need to doubt whether Monbiot still believes in global warming. He has stated that explicitly in his article.

His criticism of the scientists' behaviour is not anything to do with his "expertise". It is to do with trust - he states quite bluntly that he feels seriously misled.

I don't see any reason to doubt his judgment on this - a moral judgment, not a matter of science at all.

But Monbiot has a long record of "environmentalism". From that position, seeing him jump to be a suppporter of AGW theories is a trifle unconvincing. I do not regard him as an expert or a serious scientist. He is a polemicist, and I am pretty sure he would cheerfully admit this.

532 Ovoid  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:56:01am

re: #522 Charles

There is an industry of sorts on both sides of the equation. Let the most biased proponents of both sides have at it, with information.

Einstein spent a good deal of his last years trying to refute quantum theory. He had if you will, an ideological bias. No one would call him a dishonest broker as he tried relentlessly to double-check the the theory by attempting to poke holes in it.

It seems hardly cherry-picking to me to request the raw data to ensure that tree proxies have not been cherry-picked themselves, and I hardly think that releasing this data is so onerous a task, especially given its importance to the debate.

I feel like I am hearing shades of "you can't handle the truth" here.

533 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:57:04am

"'The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. . . . We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind.""

- One of Phil Jones Emails.

Remember folks, Oliver North went to jail for the same thing.

534 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:59:22am

re: #533 saik0max0r

"'The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. . . . We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind.""

- One of Phil Jones Emails.

Remember folks, Oliver North went to jail for the same thing.

No, Oliver North went to jail for ACTUALLY destroying evidence.

Not just talking about it.

535 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:06:35am

Charles, good job of fighting off those pesky denialists, but it is fruitless. When the Big Guns like Monbiot start calling for the resignation, then the fight is lost. It's as if you mother failed to support you in an argument with your sister.

Monbiot is one of the latest to turn on the nefarious few. Soon you will see their scientific brethren turning. Why? Because any one who has written scientific reports using their data or one of their reports will be questioned as to the validity of said report.

Remember who these folks are! They are the Climate Change players who control the raw temperature data. They admit to fiddling with the data in their emails.

The code they used to process that data is now being reviewed and that picture appears even more sinister than that of the emails. We still have the data to be reviewed. It is becoming a very, very shaky three legged stool.

People like S. McIntyre have made it a life's work to review prior results. What do you think he will find in their data and codes? What could go wrong?

Charles, you have been shown only 1/2 of the picture. That picture has been exaggerated, and any alternative views have been ridiculed and/or eliminated from view.
But you just keep on going protecting these folks.

It is too late, this argument was lost in the past years to Mother Nature as the temperature has gone down.

CoRev, editor
globalwarmingclearinghouse.blogspot.com

And for several years I have looked at these materials daily from all three sets of players, believer, skeptics, and the balanced views.

536 captdiggs  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #534 Charles

No, Oliver North went to jail for ACTUALLY destroying evidence.

Not just talking about it.

I would wonder why a scientist would be even talking about destroying evidence and contemplating a violation of the law in order to do so.

537 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:16:28am

re: #535 CoRev

If you've been reading Monbiot for years, you also know that he's a political animal. He's calling for resignations because he's in political damage control mode -- the usual response to any kind of scandal.

If you leave aside the political calculations, I have yet to read or be shown anything that is evidence of ACTUAL, REAL misconduct, and not just people ranting to each other on what they believe is a private email list.

If Phil Jones, for example, really intended to violate the FOI laws, it wouldn't make much sense to announce this to a list with dozens of members, would it?

538 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:19:22am

re: #536 captdiggs

I would wonder why a scientist would be even talking about destroying evidence and contemplating a violation of the law in order to do so.


The answer is simple. They have something to hide and do not want anyone producing evidence contrary to their position.

539 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:20:22am

re: #538 FigJam

The answer is simple. They have something to hide and do not want anyone producing evidence contrary to their position.

No, the reason is because they feel under siege by the denialists and their unceasing FOI requests.

540 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:22:15am

The CRU-Gate stuff came to light last Friday. It went fairly viral on the net immediately.

But according to Lexis-Nexis there had been nil coverage on CNN, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CBS or NPR up to Monday evening.

Not a whit - in any of the hundreds of hours of broadcasting.

Open debate - or cover-up by all these channels ?

541 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:30:23am

Whether the clear suggestions of trying to prevent publichation of articles by opposing scientists, or trying to unseat the editor of a journal, or trying to evade FOIA requests are firing offences may be a matter of judgment.

I'd say fire the guy - because he was doing this at taxpayer expense. But others may feel it is not so serious.

Far more serious is the denial of long-standing requests to release raw data - and now the suggestions that the whole computer analysis was a total mess.

542 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:30:40am

re: #539 Charles

No, the reason is because they feel under siege by the denialists and their FOI requests.

If they had been concerned at all about true scientific exchange they would have made their data freely available in the first place, so that it could be independently checked and verified. In that case there would be no need for filing FOI requests.

Could anyone imagine the Human Genome Project keeping their data so closely guarded that FOI requests would have to be filed to access it? Or that CERN would prevent FERMILAB scientists from seeing their collider data in order to formulate independent experiments to verify it?

543 marklark  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:33:22am

The "few people" in that this controversy involves happen to be some of the "foremost" climate scientists that decision makers go to for information.

They are also the gatekeepers of the "data." If you can't see the data for yourself, you have to trust them for their interpretation.

If half of what their emails show is true, they aren't trustworthy.

This won't blow over quickly.

544 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:35:00am

re: #539 Charles

No, the reason is because they feel under siege by the denialists and their FOI requests.

"Under siege by denialists " ?

That sounds like hyperbole. There were not hordes of people asking for access to the raw data. The CRU were trying to sustain a very long effort to deny access to raw data - to deny requests by what appears to be a small number of people. No siege - just refusal to comply with normal scientific protocols. Which leaves a stink ?

545 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #544 JohninLondon

"Under siege by denialists " ?

That sounds like hyperbole.

According to the emails, they were dealing with dozens of FOI requests.

546 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:46:11am

re: #545 Charles

As we're seeing, the WUWT army is out strong on this one.

Few have any clue as to what the science actually says, even fewer can describe it accurately.

Yet they all know how the CRU must somehow be the ones undermining "science."

IMO, arguing with these people is like arguing with AiG.

547 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:51:24am

re: #542 FigJam

If you think scientific data is available to anyone your are mistaken. Probably because you have no clue about how any science is done.

If you watched the recent Ardi expositions you would realize that it is not unusual for scientific data to actually be kept secret.

Furthermore, if you went to Fermilab or CERN and asked for the data they would laugh at you. Not that they would think there is some legal reason for keeping it from you (though in the case of CERN there probably is), but because you would be clueless with what to do with the terabytes of data collected from collisions.

548 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:53:59am

re: #534 Charles

Technically true, but I would say where there is smoke, there is fire. I'm pretty certain at this point that this lot would (and likely has) willfully destroyed evidence that doesn't fit "teh narrative".

Specifically looking at the comments in source code leads me to believe that they frequently tamper with evidence... I really wished the miscreant grabbed their CVS or SVN repo, assuming they had one.

549 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:56:33am

re: #546 freetoken

Free Token Juxtaposition:

You can't say this:

"Few have any clue as to what the science actually says, even fewer can describe it accurately."

and then this:

"If you think scientific data is available to anyone your are mistaken. Probably because you have no clue about how any science is done."

Without this:

/facepalm

550 Dom  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:59:01am

re: #547 freetoken

Furthermore, if you went to Fermilab or CERN and asked for the data they would laugh at you. Not that they would think there is some legal reason for keeping it from you (though in the case of CERN there probably is), but because you would be clueless with what to do with the terabytes of data collected from collisions.

That isn't the same thing at all then. Massive global efforts in response to global warming are costing gazillions of dollars. Either Charles is right that obscuring this data is a political misjudgement - and there are good reasons but that is an ethical misjudgement, not just self-sabotage - or else we really are being deceived over those gazillions, presumably to keep the money flowing in. Either way I - pretty much uninvolved, flirting with both views but wanting the truth; your average bystander - also want to see the data released and the argument play out.

551 Greengolem64  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:13:29pm

re: #539 Charles

No, the reason is because they feel under siege by the denialists and their unceasing FOI requests.

There is a valid reason for EVER destroying scientific data rather than releasing it? (In the context of this discussion)

Really...

552 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:17:12pm

re: #551 Greengolem64

There is a valid reason for EVER destroying scientific data rather than releasing it? (In the context of this discussion)

Really...

Nobody destroyed any data.

553 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:21:54pm

How about this for hyperbole - "ClimateGate : The Fix is In"

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Yes it may go over the top. But it contains a good account of the importance of peer review and the ways by which such a provess was being subverted.

Oh - and notice the clear reference to RealClimate (cited for this thread) acting as a stooge for the AGW camp.

554 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:21:55pm

re: #537 Charles

Charles, I'm sorry, you're reaching at straws. Try the scientific ethics issue. If it is ethical to do all the things they have admitted in their emails, then we have a more serious problem with science and scientists.

Regardless, respond to my other comments re: the other two legs. With the evidence already available in the emails and the preliminary review of the S/W code, these guys are done professionally. And, as I pointed out earlier, all their work and any work derived from that work is in question. Many scientists are going to be very disappointed when their work is removed or threatened to be removed from journal archives.

This is just beginning.

CoRev, editor
globalwarmingclearinghouse.blogspot.com

555 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #552 Charles

Charles,

Santer et. al. are on record as having stated that they've destroyed intermediate data sets. You know, the stuff where various weightings have been applied. It's not the raw data, but it's just as important as it's the point where some data is chosen to be more representative than others.

It's like RRD (Tobi's Round Robin Database) compression... every time they do this conversion, that intermediate data is "lost" forever (days get rolled up into weeks, weeks into months, and a year level, you can't go back to a "day" measurement without loss etc.) Unless you have the specific code (which they won't release) that does this processing, you can't accurately reproduce the work.

This destruction of intermediate artifacts forced a few of the journals to revise their data policies to keep it intact.

556 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:27:08pm

re: #547 freetoken

If you think scientific data is available to anyone your are mistaken. Probably because you have no clue about how any science is done.

First of all I believe I have a very good idea about how science is done. While I don't want to tout degrees, I have a doctorate and have spent my entire career in both academic and industrial research settings. Furthermore, I never said anything about data being made available to anyone, but to other scientists in the field for independent verification.

If you watched the recent Ardi expositions you would realize that it is not unusual for scientific data to actually be kept secret.

The Ardi data were not "kept secret". The fossil was found in 1992 and it took until recently to prepare and assess the finding for publication. But once published, other scientists do not require a FOI request to obtain the data.

Furthermore, if you went to Fermilab or CERN and asked for the data they would laugh at you. Not that they would think there is some legal reason for keeping it from you (though in the case of CERN there probably is), but because you would be clueless with what to do with the terabytes of data collected from collisions.

Finally, I would never want to access data from these labs; my expertise is not in particle physics. The point is not that anyone can access their data, but that other scientists can to verify or dispute their findings. This is what the CRU emails show that that coterie of scientists was trying to prevent.

557 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #554 CoRev

That on your own webpage you list Pielke Sr. under "Balanced Blogs" says quite a bit about your blog.

Succinctly - it's screwed up.

Indeed, your approach is the classic TEACH THE CONTROVERSY.

558 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:29:33pm

re: #556 FigJam

But once published, other scientists do not require a FOI request to obtain the data.

It's not unusual for the actual "data", in this case fossils, to be plainly unavailable to researchers even after publication.

559 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:30:11pm

re: #553 JohninLondon

JohninLondon said: "Oh - and notice the clear reference to RealClimate (cited for this thread) acting as a stooge for the AGW camp." No, not stooges! They are the AGW camp. Many casusal observers do not realize that the core group also run RealClimate.

560 Greengolem64  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:32:32pm

re: #552 Charles

Nobody destroyed any data.

Nor did "I" say anyone did destroy data. I was simply responding to your comment that the reason they were contemplating destroying data was because of the overwhelming...correction your words "under siege" by requests for data.

So again, is there ever a valid reason for destroying Scientific data? Certainly an abundance or "seige level" of requests might be a PITA, but a reason to destroy data rather than release it?

Really...

561 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:40:08pm

freetoken, have you even read Pielke Sr? He definitely believes in AGW? He is not hard over on the CO2 theory, which by the way, is probably falsified with the Climategate information now released. A great swath of the associated science supporting the CO2 theory is now under question.

I presume you are a RC diehard reader, then there is little hope discussing this issue unless you read other skeptical sites also.

Remember folks, you have been fed 1/2 the story for years. That story has been exaggerated, and any alternative theories and their authors have been ridiculed and kept from view. RC has been one of the major players in this mission of subversion.

CoRev, editor
[Link: globalwarmingclearinghouse.blogspot.com...]

562 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:45:56pm

re: #558 freetoken

freetoken said: "It's not unusual for the actual "data", in this case fossils, to be plainly unavailable to researchers even after publication." Fossils are not data. They may be many things, but data? No!

Quit the spinning.

CoRev, editor
http:globalwarmingclearinghouse.blogspot.com

563 JohninLondon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:46:25pm

Better late than never - a fairly honest appraisal of ClimateGate by CBS - who'da thunk it !!!

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

564 elBarto  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:49:43pm

These emails appear to show that there was at the least a conspiracy to destroy emails in order to subvert the FOI requests. I do not know whether emails were destroyed or whether data was destroyed, but the conspiracy is a crime.
Why were these people willing to destroy this data? If there is nothing to hide and they are secure in the data, why try to prevent others from seeing it?
This does not mean they are wrong, but I think their credibility is now suspect.

565 MacGiolaPhadraig  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:50:32pm

If this had been about data related to a drug, or drilling in ANWR, or *gasp* evolution, how many of you would be making excuses for those concerned? To attempt to suppress evidence which contradicts your thesis is very human. It is not Science.
I'm old enough to remember well the furor that attended the introduction of the theory of plate tectonics. There were the same sort of "junk science", and worse, epithets directed against it's early proponents, but the data withstood the assaults.
Usually, eventually, truth will out.

566 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 12:58:38pm

re: #565 MacGiolaPhadraig

How many accounts have you registered at LGF?

567 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:11:52pm

I'm just wondering because it looks like you have four accounts under different email addresses, and the terms on the registration page pretty clearly say not to do this. Any particular reason for it?

568 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:29:18pm
569 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:32:06pm

I'm not going to be responsible for sending Iowahawk any traffic, sorry.

570 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:33:50pm

4

re: #503 JohninLondon

It's like that here too in that the mainstream media outlets: ABC, CBS, NBC, the public broadcasting NPR and left leaning cable outlets (CNN & MSNBC) refuse to address the story. They ignore any story that runs counter to the current administration's until they absolutely HAVE to do a story on it (such as %10 unemployment ).

Only the hated (from the left) Fox News will carry it. Was surprised the NYT had something on it the other day.

571 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:34:38pm

Hmm. Hit and run post. Several accounts. Ignored direct question about it.

See ya!

572 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:34:42pm

re: #528 Charles

Sorry Charles - your arguement re NOT having the emails linked here to allow the "deniers" to make their case on "ethical" grounds absolutely fails with the revelation that "youve just spent hours" trolling thru the emails

Huh???

So its unethical to have links to them on your blog cause "dey is stolen" yet you feel no ethical conundrum posed by having them on your computer and reading them???

At the end of the day this thing will play itself out.

I ask though if this is what was discovered in one place involving such well placed "scientists" then what lurks elsewhere?

Who knows. But one thing stands out...as stated earlier - we have nations contemplating unbelievble taxing and nation-changing legislation all based on what is AT LEAST - suspect data

Why not spend the time confirming the conclusions these people are demanding we accept?

573 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:38:30pm

re: #572 yakabebe

I downloaded them right after the story broke, from a link posted at LGF to one of the climate denial blogs, before the full story was known. And since I'm going to write about it, I felt that I needed to know what was in the files.

Those links are still all over the web. If you feel you need to know what's in the files too, go ahead and download them. It's not hard to find a link.

But I'm not going to let LGF be used to distribute stolen files. Period. If you don't like that, tough.

574 captdiggs  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:44:53pm

re: #552 Charles

Nobody destroyed any data.

Well, actually, CRU admitted that it had "lost" or "destroyed" data.

"the recent revelation by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) that it has lost or destroyed all the original data used to construct historic global temperature records."
[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

575 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:45:56pm

re: #573 Charles

I linked to a site that has a link to them, on the current thread. Is that too close?

576 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:52:36pm

re: #573 Charles

Hey whatever works for you.

BTW re my comment of "what lurks below" in reference to what might be in other data sets elsewhere if the CRU is any way representative?

Chris Horner details the "three sets of documents he’s trying to wrest from another climate centre that’s into political activism as much as it’s into science:

- internal discussions about NASA’s quiet correction of its false historical U.S. temperature records after two Canadian researchers discovered a key statistical error, specifically discussion about whether and why to correct certain records, how to do so, the impact or wisdom or potential (or real) fallout therefrom or reaction to doing so (requested August 2007);

- internal discussions relating to the emails sent to James Hansen and/or Reto A. Ruedy from Canadian statistician Steve McIntyre calling their attention to the errors in NASA/GISS online temperature data (August 2007);

- those relating to the content, importance or propriety of workday-hour posts or entries by GISS/NASA employee Gavin A. Schmidt on the weblog or “blog” RealClimate, which is owned by the advocacy Environmental Media Services and was started as an effort to defend the debunked “Hockey Stick” that is so central to the CRU files. RealClimate.org is implicated in the leaked files, expressly offered as a tool to be used “in any way you think would be helpful” to a certain advocacy campaign, including an assertion of Schmidt’s active involvement in, e.g., delaying and/or screening out unhelpful input by “skeptics” attempting to comment on claims made on the website.

This and the related political activism engaged in are inappropriate behavior for a taxpayer-funded employee, particularly on taxpayer time. These documents were requested in January 2007 and NASA/GISS have refused to date to comply with their legal obligation to produce responsive documents."

I wait with bated breath.

577 Pythagoras  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:56:02pm

re: #537 Charles

. . . If you leave aside the political calculations, I have yet to read or be shown anything that is evidence of ACTUAL, REAL misconduct, and not just people ranting to each other on what they believe is a private email list. . . .

OK, I'm out of my depth here, but the word "suborn" might apply. I don't even know American law and this is British. Anyone know if asking someone else to delete emails can be a crime in Britain?

578 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 1:56:34pm

re: #576 yakabebe

These are just the same old claims by McIntyre, whose requests ought to be ignored.

McIntyre is trying the death-by-a-thousand-pricks approach... He is abusing the spirit behind FOIA.

579 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:00:33pm

re: #518 ovoid


Liked your post and agree. I think the emails so far do not prove fraud but a paranoid state that if they have to share all their data and explain their methods it will just give the other side more oppurtunity to distort and hence shoot more perceived holes in the theory.

And too shows some unseemly gamesmanship of wanting to marginalize AGW skeptic's papers by boycotting the reputable publications that print them for peer review. Rather than letting their supposedly flawed opponents have their day and let the chips fall where they may.

580 Pythagoras  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:03:53pm

re: #578 freetoken

These are just the same old claims by McIntyre, whose requests ought to be ignored.

McIntyre is trying the death-by-a-thousand-pricks approach... He is abusing the spirit behind FOIA.

I don't think this applies to the case where none of the previous requests have been honored. If I am asked for something and supply it and then other requests come in, that can be abuse of the system and/or my trust. Repeating or rewording past requests that were denied may be stupid or a waste of time, but they are not abusing the system.

581 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:07:49pm

re: #574 captdiggs

Well, actually, CRU admitted that it had "lost" or "destroyed" data.

"the recent revelation by the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) that it has lost or destroyed all the original data used to construct historic global temperature records."
[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

That has nothing to do with this case.

582 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:26:51pm

Wow, science denier dogpile. So predictable. An excellent specimen of this internet species. Can't you all come out and actually debate once in a while, instead of waiting until most have moved on? Cowardly debating style, to say the least.

583 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 2:58:13pm

Karma: -174

nomra

(Logged in)
Registered since: May 4, 2009 at 7:04 am
No. of comments posted: 60
No. of links posted: 0

584 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:08:10pm

Ironic downding watch:

-1 Comment rated by: nomra

Posted by: Charles in article: Nontroversy Watch: CRU-Gate

I see the deniers have been hard at work in this thread, dinging down anyone who tries to talk sense. Typical.

585 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:11:47pm

re: #493 Charles

This is complete nonsense. What has REALLY happened is that I made a determined effort to educate myself about this subject, by reading the scientific literature and as much other material I could find, starting over a year ago. I began this process as a climate skeptic, but I was simply FORCED by the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence to accept that global warming is really happening, and that humans are responsible for it.


Other people, like me, have made the same effort and have come to the conclusion that there's a whole bunch of confirmation bias amongst the relatively small group of scientists who are doing the work pushing this hypothesis. Is it a evil communist conspiracy? -of course not, but it's a great example of groupthink and the freezing out of other scientists who aren't on message. The emails how proof of this. Hopefully, this will mean that the "hockey team" will not longer be able to act as gatekeepers and that a real scientific debate can occur.

586 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:18:50pm

re: #583 Gus 802

...and your point is Gus?

587 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:36:50pm

re: #486 shmuli

Well, it was bound to happen sometime. You can only support the Global Warming Industry on government money and bad science for just so long:

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

Congress is already calling for investigations. You can be sure that this news will hurt the Global Warming Hysterics' cause. Of course Charles and the warming alarmists want to play down this development. The net upshot of this scandal is greater public awareness of the politicization of AGW "science".

IMO, this scandal will result in (well deserved) and lasting damage to the scientific community. Pity.

Maybe "well deserved" for a few of the politicized scientists, but this is certainly NOT a good thing for "science". This actually makes it much harder for people defending science over religious/unscientific beliefs. A creationist or an anti-vaccination idiot will point to the BS about AGW and tar all science with the same brush.

588 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:46:59pm

re: #587 nomra " A creationist or an anti-vaccination idiot will point to the BS about AGW and tar all science with the same brush."

Hmmm...ya mean sorta like when the warming advocates tar all of those with an opposing view as "deniers" or "sceptics"...all the while, belittling not only their science but their credentials and motivation?

589 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:58:42pm

re: #444 JohninLondon

Try reading the link

Where the heck are the specifics? What files were worked on, what directories were they in, who compiled them, what app(s) are they connected to, and who the heck is Harry_read_me?

Without more information this is irrelevant and just looks like a bozo with a chip on his shoulder and an overwhelming (for his self control) agenda looking for nits to pick (I ain't talking about Harry here).

Let's see up close what those nits are. Since you read enough of the data to feel highly informed you should be able to give that info.

590 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:08:45pm

re: #453 JohninLondon

You have obviously not read the full Harry-file stuff.

So please stop making out you are some kind of expert.

The Harry-file stuff looks like a programmer (of some unknown ability) whining about the lack of comments because it forces him to reconstruct the logic independently.

Comments in a program are unnecessary to the function of the program so no matter how bad the commenting, jumping to the conclusion that the program has problems based on those comments is nonsense.

Show me where Harry had to recode because the existing stuff was giving the wrong answer.

591 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:14:37pm

After all is said and done the average bloke who like me aint a scientist has to weigh up the arguments presented on both sides of the divide. At the end of that - one tends to get left with highly conflicting opinions - all presented by experts - and all saying they're right and the other guy is wrong.

Fair enough.

So then, the common guy looks to his own world to his own perceptions and tries to check what is going on. Fact is, in my world, I can see NO evidence of the GW that we seem to be suffering from. And yes...maybe that says something about me, my powers of observation or maybe even something about the geographical location where I reside.

What I've done then is stepped back and asked "Well...if the model is making claims of being able to predict the future...how good has it gone in explaining the past verifiable movements in climate temp rainfall etc...?" I mean if it cant do that...how the hell can anyone feel confident that the model is strong enough or well-enough-developed to predict the future???

And on this pt...the model again fails. Here's some info from Australia:

Some background, from a National Technical University of Athens study of how regional models - including the CSIRO’s - fared in “predicting” the past 18 years of temperature and rainfall:

"Geographically distributed predictions of future climate, obtained through climate models, are widely used in hydrology and many other disciplines, typically without assessing their reliability. Here we compare the output of various models to temperature and precipitation observations from eight stations with long (over 100 years) records from around the globe. The results show that models perform poorly, even at a climatic (30-year) scale. Thus local model projections cannot be credible, whereas a common argument that models can perform better at larger spatial scales is unsupported."

That’s confirmed by ecological niche modeller Dr David Stockwell, who checked the modelling behind a technical report put together by the CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology that predicted worse droughts thanks to global warming. Stockwell also found the climate models couldn’t even predict the past climate, let alone the future:

"In a statistical re-analysis of the data from the Drought Exceptional Circumstances Report, all climate models failed standard internal validation tests for regional droughted area in Australia over the last century. The most worrying failure was that simulations showed increases in droughted area over the last century in all regions, while the observed trends in drought decreased in five of the seven regions identified in the CSIRO/Bureau of Meteorology report. Therefore there is no credible basis for the claims of increasing frequency of Exceptional Circumstances declarations made in the report. These results are consistent with other studies finding lack of adequate validation in global warming effects modeling, and lack of skill of climate models at the regional scale."

And on further checking, Stockwell found the CSIRO’s models could not even predict the past (wetter) weather:

"It looks to me that in the last 50 years of observations (1950-2007) in almost all regions, observations of drought are decreasing (red), while the models of drought are increasing (black)."

592 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:14:41pm

re: #455 yakabebe

At the end of the day the irrefutable fact is the model as purported to be "settled science" predicts that as CO2 increases so to will temp. But the CO2 levels have clearly jumped in the past few years but the temp has not

Clearly...CLEARLY...the model being used is ineffective, incomplete and fails in its mission.

How can a rational, thinking clever individual such as those here think of it i any other way unless they have somehow "fallen in love" with the theory. That, my good friend, is a pitfall that captures many on the stock market and seemingly has captured many here as well

Take a step back...take a deep breath and reexamine the data. Whats the problem with that???

Aside of course from the Gordon Browns of the world telling us we have "50 days to make a decision or we are all doomed"...

Actually the models do show periods of no increase in temps because of natural variations. Go here: [Link: mind.ofdan.ca...]

593 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:16:56pm

re: #462 JohninLondon

What an utterly stupid and blinkered remark.

Plimer is a scientist with lots of published papers.
He is also a noted anti-creationist - so that should put himin the good-guys camp ?

Just to repeat a valid point;


re: #458 freetoken

Plimer is a kook and should be accorded no more respect (in the field of science) than Ken Ham.

I second that opinion

594 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:19:41pm

re: #465 yakabebe

"Plimer is a scientist with lots of published papers."

And I'd ask Al gore - his "credentialed" claim to fame?

Sorry, changing the story from Plimer to Gore doesn't make Plimer correct. You can compare him to anyone you like and it would still not make him anything more than what he is, a liar.

Plimer has no published papers in climate.

595 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:33:34pm

re: #594 b_sharp

C'mon, mate - thats a nonsense argument. The guy to whom I was responding was discounting Plimer's contribution to the debate because he was "in mining" and had no credentials to speak with any authourity

And yet...the "leading" authority - indeed for mine - the cult leader - is Al Gore who has nada.

That was my point - not so much a defence of Plimer but an expose on Gore.

Indeed here in Australia the leading alarmist is TIM Flannery, an expert in bones, who has made a fortune from books and lectures warning that we face global warming doom.

He scared us so well that we last year made him Australian of the Year.

In March, Flannery said: “The water problem is so severe for Adelaide that it may run out of water by early 2009.”

In fact, Adelaide’s reservoirs are now 75 per cent full, just weeks from 2009.

In June last year, Flannery warned Brisbane’s “water supplies are so low they need desalinated water urgently, possibly in as little as 18 months”.

In fact, 18 months later, its dams are 46 per cent full after Brisbane’s wettest spring in 27 years.

In 2005, Flannery predicted Sydney’s dams could be dry in just two years.

In fact, three years later its dams are 63 per cent full, not least because June last year was its wettest since 1951.

In 2004, Flannery said global warming would cause such droughts that “there is a fair chance Perth will be the 21st century’s first ghost metropolis”.

In fact, Perth now has the lowest water restrictions of any state capital, thanks to its desalination plant and dams that are 40 per cent full after the city’s wettest November in 17 years.

So you see, the common fella looks at the spin from a guy like Flannery (and Gore) and says "What a crock of shyte" not becaue we clearly understand the science - but that clearly they were DEAD WRONG.

So how - if one is DEAD WRONG - does one retain the title of "expert"? I mean I ask the same questions about "expert economists" that miss the mark by BILLIONS?!?!?! Hell I can pick a figure outta my ass and be wrong to. Pay me the big bucks!!

596 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:35:15pm

re: #502 joest1973

Let's call a truce then. I want a reset on of the scientific data. Why did global warming in the 70's turn into global warming in the 90's. Why is global warming now labeled climate change?

Let get another 10-20 years of data and have believers and non-believers make the case with the data. Oh and lets keep Al Gore out of the picture.

I think you meant "Why did global cooling in the 70's turn into global warming in the 90's."

Less than 11% of papers published at the time spoke of cooling, and of those only one spoke of it in current terms, the rest were talking about some time in the future. The majority of papers were about warming, but many simply didn't know.

The focus on cooling at the time was from the media, not the scientists.

As far as the change from AGW to ACC, it didn't happen in the scientific world but in the political world. The IPCC, started in 1988 has 'climate change' in their name, in the peer reviewed lit, climate change predates global warming. The change was made by the Republicans after a 2002 memo from Frank Luntz of Luntz Research Inc. to the Bush administration.

I'm afraid the change in public recognition of the terms was due to your side not due to some nefarious purpose on the part of climate science.

597 Folded Flat  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:44pm

re: #516 FigJam

Charles, I'm sorry but you are flat wrong about that, and your backhanded dismissal does not negate what I have said. I would post links to specific emails supporting these assertions, but you have already stated that you refuse to allow links to "downloads of illegally obtained data". So you have constructed a convenient little sandbox here...you state your position, yet prevent skeptics from producing contrary evidence.

Please do post links to those emails.

598 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:11:18pm

re: #588 yakabebe

" A creationist or an anti-vaccination idiot will point to the BS about AGW and tar all science with the same brush."

Hmmm...ya mean sorta like when the warming advocates tar all of those with an opposing view as "deniers" or "sceptics"...all the while, belittling not only their science but their credentials and motivation?

Calling someone sceptical of AGW a "sceptic" is accurate. Calling someone a "denier" OTOH, is a nasty bit of rhetoric meant to echo "holocaust denier" and says more about the accuser than the accused.

599 pyrodoctor  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:51pm

I don't know how most of you guys can bury your heads in the sand and ignore this scientific misconduct which constitutes the basis of much of the anthropogenic climate change theory out there. It is hypocrisy just like that of the mainstream media ignoring ACORN.

If the scientific "consensus" truly existed then the scientists in that consensus shouldn't have to falsify data and pressure peer reviewed journals to not publish results that contest that "consensus". If the data were unequivocal then the dishonesty wouldn't be necessary. It undermines the very cause they support.

Scientific misconduct is very serious business. Scientific misconduct on a topic that potentially will undermine the economies of the world is inexcusable.

Before we move forward on any climate change policy changes there should be a detailed audit of all of these climate change universities and centers. This should be investigated in great detail.

I believe the climate is changing. I'm not sure it is man that is causing it. But at any rate, the data aren't strong enough to support extremely radical steps like banning coal. The data are strong enough to support promoting alternate energy sources, promoting conservation, etc.

600 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:53pm

re: #598 nomra

Calling someone sceptical of AGW a "sceptic" is accurate. Calling someone a "denier" OTOH, is a nasty bit of rhetoric meant to echo "holocaust denier" and says more about the accuser than the accused.

You may not like the term, but the simple fact is that there are numerous people who absolutely deserve the "denier" label. It has nothing to do with Holocaust denial, it has to do with willful denial of scientific evidence.

601 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:30:07pm

re: #600 Charles

So, OK...just as long as you also accept there are those who should and are labelled "alarmists". Take Tim Flannery as I quoted above

602 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:19pm

re: #599 pyrodoctor

I don't know how most of you guys can bury your heads in the sand and ignore this scientific misconduct which constitutes the basis of much of the anthropogenic climate change theory out there.

Right, we're ignoring it. In a thread with 600+ comments.

If the scientific "consensus" truly existed then the scientists in that consensus shouldn't have to falsify data...

Nobody "falsified" any data.

... and pressure peer reviewed journals to not publish results that contest that "consensus".

The pressure was directed at papers that were not properly peer-reviewed, but were published anyway.

If the data were unequivocal then the dishonesty wouldn't be necessary.

What "dishonesty?"

Scientific misconduct is very serious business. Scientific misconduct on a topic that potentially will undermine the economies of the world is inexcusable.

There was no "scientific misconduct."

Before we move forward on any climate change policy changes there should be a detailed audit of all of these climate change universities and centers. This should be investigated in great detail.

Right, I'm sure you would love for that to happen. It won't.

I believe the climate is changing. I'm not sure it is man that is causing it.

Then you're ignorant of the scientific evidence that definitively shows human beings are the cause of rising CO2 levels.

603 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:55:37pm

re: #602 Charles

Just a quick question to you, Charles although you're clearly entrenched in your views.

Given the "model" employed by the IPCC purports to be accurate and capable of making predictions...and that a plethora of scientists have used the model to make all sorts of predictions.

And that the model was based upon a given amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and that by all accounts this amount has increase ...

Then...tell me...how may examples of FAILURE to predict by the model would it take before you DID accept the basis and premise of the model was wrong, needs to be reviewed and that precipitous actions by government need to be placed on hold?

1, 5, 10 100?

604 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:07:42pm

re: #603 yakabebe

Just a quick question to you, Charles although you're clearly entrenched in your views.

As a matter of fact, I've changed my views on global warming after making a serious effort to educate myself. Is that what you mean by "entrenched?"

Then...tell me...how may examples of FAILURE to predict by the model would it take before you DID accept the basis and premise of the model was wrong, needs to be reviewed and that precipitous actions by government need to be placed on hold?

1, 5, 10 100?

42.

605 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:09:06pm

re: #604 Charles

Chuckle...42.

Amassing 43. Be back to ya...;)

606 jim_beam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:15:57pm

re: #525 JohninLondon

Charles

It really does not matter that someone requesting access to raw data may have opposing ideas. It is a core principle of current scientific method and research that raw data should always be made available. Period.

The record shows that it has not been made available, in spite of requests going back many years.

SHAZAAAMM

607 jim_beam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:19:35pm

re: #604 Charles

Charles, you HAVE to admit the CRU databases and programming appear to be worse than Duke Nukem Forever. Harry says so himself!

608 CoRev  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:22:29pm

re: #602 Charles

Ah, Charles, saying this: "Then you're ignorant of the scientific evidence that definitively shows human beings are the cause of rising CO2 levels." Says only that you are ignorant of the theory, but more importantly the evidence supporting the theory. I for one would like to see that evidence.

I know of many, many model-based studies that conclude there is a CO2 feedback heating mechanism(s), but none that can be verified. The models have not been validated, and they can not predict/project in the short term.

Now, with the latest Climategate we see that the data HAS been manipulated, which we knew from the MM studies. The code is indecipherable, which means only the original writer knew what it was supposed to do. Oh, and the original writer was probably some student, who knew little about the science, and less about how to code. And another oh BTW, that student is now long gone.

We know the US raw data is terrible from Watts findings. There is no reason to expect data collected in 3rd world countries to be better. The revised data using those same unfathomable S/W programs is assumed to be better? More likely gone from bad to worse.

So, Charles, you just keep believing the 1/2 of the Climate Change/AGW picture you have been shown by these controlling few. I will continue to review and research all sides as they are presented.

CoRev, editor
[Link: globalwarmingclearinghouse.blogspot.com...]

609 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:43:39pm

re: #608 CoRev


We know the US raw data is terrible from Watts findings.


Lie.


Indeed, you are a liar.

610 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:48:59pm

re: #608 CoRev

It's hilarious how you try to picture yourself as "researching all sides," when it could not be more clear that you're completely committed to denying the science of global warming.

611 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:16:49pm

Heres an interesting read on the quality of the data used.

CBS reports:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

A snippett:

In addition to (the leaked CRU) e-mail messages, the roughly 3,600 leaked documents posted on sites including Wikileaks.org and EastAngliaEmails.com include computer code and a description of how an unfortunate programmer named “Harry”—possibly the CRU’s Ian “Harry” Harris—was tasked with resuscitating and updating a key temperature database that proved to be problematic. Some excerpts from what appear to be his notes, emphasis added:

"I am seriously worried that our flagship gridded data product is produced by Delaunay triangulation - apparently linear as well. As far as I can see, this renders the station counts totally meaningless. It also means that we cannot say exactly how the gridded data is arrived at from a statistical perspective - since we’re using an off-the-shelf product that isn’t documented sufficiently to say that. Why this wasn’t coded up in Fortran I don’t know - time pressures perhaps? Was too much effort expended on homogenisation, that there wasn’t enough time to write a gridding procedure? Of course, it’s too late for me to fix it too. Meh.

I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same station name and very similar coordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that’s the case? Aarrggghhh! There truly is no end in sight… So, we can have a proper result, but only by including a load of garbage!"

612 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:58:06pm

re: #590 b_sharp

Bullshit. I've written Perl code so obfuscated, you wouldn't be able to tell if it was a fork bomb or router health checker without the perldocs.

613 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:23:49pm

re: #600 Charles

You may not like the term, but the simple fact is that there are numerous people who absolutely deserve the "denier" label. It has nothing to do with Holocaust denial, it has to do with willful denial of scientific evidence.

Sure, but then "denier" applies equally to those on the "pro" side who, for example, still claim that the Katrina disaster was caused by AGW.
In any case, I wounldn't Godwin myself by using the term.

614 jim_beam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:08:35pm

re: #610 Charles

So have you read the HARRY_READ_ME.txt yet?

615 yakabebe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:17:18pm

As I've posted before, I as a layman, I admit I dont have the expertise to separate the wheat from the chaff in this debate. I rely on the "experts ". Despite what the AGW proponents - there is a HUGE body of science and a very large # of prominent, eminent scientists making a strong case agin AGW

Now Charles - you can deride and dismiss me all you want. But I ask you... what would you say to these scientists - most of whom have all the qualifications you could ask for? Are they all blind, stupid, uneducated, misled and co-opted scientists? I'd love to hear your reply

The list below is just one gleaned from a small resource...it is simply representative of the large body pf scientists running counter to AGW

*Nobel Prize Winner, Physics Ivar Giaever.
*Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman to receive a PhD in meteorology, who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called “among the most preeminent scientists of the last 100 years.”
*UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, PhD environmental physical chemist.
*Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet.
*Scientist Dr. Jarl R. Ahlbeck, a chemical engineer at Abo Akademi University in Finland, author of 200 scientific publications and former Greenpeace member.
*Solar physicist Dr. Pal Brekke, senior advisor to the Norwegian Space Centre in Oslo. Brekke has published more than 40 peer-reviewed scientific articles on the sun and solar interaction with the Earth.
*Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico
*U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley Goldenberg, Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.
*G Duffy, Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, NZ.
*Climate statistician Dr. William Briggs, statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.
*Andrei Kapitsa, a Russian geographer and Antarctic ice core researcher.
*Physicist Dr. Will Happer, Princeton University and Former Director of Energy Research at the Department of Energy, over 200 scientific papers, a fellow of the American Physical Society, The American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the National Academy of Sciences.
*Hungarian Physicist and environmental researcher Dr. Miklós Zágoni reversed his view of man-made warming and is now a skeptic.
*Dr. David Gee the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer reviewed papers
*Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch UN IPCC committee.
*Nuclear Physicist and Chemical Engineer Dr. Philip Lloyd, a UN IPCC co-coordinating lead author who has authored over 150 refereed publications.
*Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh.
*Geophysicist Dr. Phil Chapman, an astronautical engineer and former NASA astronaut
*Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, more than 150 published articles.
*Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.
*Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires
*Atmospheric scientist Dr. Art V. Douglas, former Chair of the Atmospheric Sciences Department at Creighton University in Omaha, Nebraska, and is the author of numerous papers for peer-reviewed publications.
*Chemist Dr. Patrick Frank, who has authored more than 50 peer-reviewed articles.
*Award-Winning NASA Astronaut/Geologist and Moonwalker Jack Schmitt who flew on the Apollo 17 mission and formerly of the Norwegian Geological Survey and for the U.S. Geological Survey.

616 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:19:45pm
617 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:26:04pm
618 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:32:00pm

Interesting. So many unknown names popping up for this thread. It's like a sleeper cell of anti-AGW sockpuppets came out of the woodwork.

619 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:33:13pm

re: #618 Gus 802

Yes, especially the one pimping his own website.

Makes one wonder what lurks in that database of LGF posters...

620 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:34:47pm

re: #618 Gus 802

I'm going to post a list of people I don't like at all... oh, and a recipe for brownies.

621 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:34:50pm

re: #619 freetoken

Yes, especially the one pimping his own website.

Makes one wonder what lurks in that database of LGF posters...

Yeah, keeps signing off his own comments over and over again.

CoRev, Editor and Blog Pimp

/

622 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:37:03pm

re: #620 Bagua

I'm going to post a list of people I don't like at all... oh, and a recipe for brownies.

With walnuts?

623 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:38:53pm

re: #622 Gus 802

I have an entirely separate list of nuts that I don't like at all, I'll post that as well.

624 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:40:13pm

re: #623 Bagua

I have an entirely separate list of nuts that I don't like at all, I'll post that as well.

Very well. In that case he's a contribution to the list:

1. Stephen Baldwin

/

625 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:41:00pm

re: #624 Gus 802

Very well. In that case he's here's a contribution to the list:

1. Stephen Baldwin

/

Dagnabit.

626 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:19:07am

Gee...I can see the last few posters bring erudite, claer thinking to the debate. Grow up kids...

Meanwhile more evidence from the other side

"ONE of North Queensland’s top marine physicists has accused fellow scientists of exaggerating the threat that climate change poses to the Great Barrier Reef… (cmon...they wouldnt do that...Charles said so)

James Cook University’s Prof Peter Ridd said global warming could actually be good for the Reef. And he accused scientists of “pushing particular lines” in a bid to save their jobs and keep their funding flowing.

“There’s a lot of money at stake here,” Prof Ridd said...(Ya rekon...)

“There’s large organisations in science who are pushing particular lines and ... the other side of the argument is not being heard.”

627 freetoken  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 3:50:31am

re: #626 yakabebe

Since you don't provide links, let me provide some:

Peter Ridd is the science co-ordinator for the Australian Environment Foundation.

What is the Australian Environment Foundation?

The Australian Environment Foundation is a front group founded by the Institute of Public Affairs (IPA), a conservative Melbourne-based think tank.

The director of the environment unit of the IPA, Jennifer Marohasy was the founding Chairwoman and is listed as a Director in the organisation's documents with the Australian Securities and Investment Commission (ASIC). Mahorasy is also the listed registrant of the group's website, although the address and phone number for the website registration are identical to the address and phone number for the Victorian office of the logging industry front group, Timber Communities Australia. [1] [2]

[...]

Jennifer Marohasy is one of the major Australian denier-industry clearinghouses. She is essentially the Australian version of Marc Morano, and has quite demonstrable lack of understanding of science.

628 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 4:09:54am

re: #627 freetoken

Ahhh doing what the alarmists do

For goodness sake - rather than attack the person - address the point raised

So aside from you having an issue with the source...what exactly did I post that you would refute???

Geeezzz...I get sick of this shit

629 CoRev  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 4:30:55am

Freetoken said: "Yes, especially the one pimping his own website.

Makes one wonder what lurks in that database of LGF posters..." It's easy to tell when you are getting to someone by the quality of their arguments. Ad Homs do not end and certainly do indicate the depth of their knowledge.

I add my site to indicate the validity of my claim:" I look at all sides of this argument daily."

I will also repeat my main argument: " You folks have been shown 1/2 of the arguments (or at least only one side), and you are making decisions on that limited information. Moreover, the Real Climate web site, the one most "believers" think is the best science site, is the purveyor of this one sided message. It is also the site of those that are being put under the microscope and soon to be under investigation.

Charles, freetoken Gus, and the other "believers" here, I could have buried you in links, but realize you would never have gone to them anyway. I make it a practice to never interrupt the slumber of the close minded innocents.

I refuse to bite on the Watts comment. Talk about being willingly ignorant. Sheesh!

CoRev, editor
[Link: globalwarmingclearinghouse...]

(added just because it irks the Climategate deniers)

630 freetoken  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 4:50:05am

re: #628 yakabebe

If you are unwilling to link to the sources of what you post, then others will do it for you.

I asked a very simple question upstream, but since you nor JohninLondon have touched it all I can surmise is that you are ignorant of the actual physics involved in climate, and are just copying links from endless hours of being lost in the internet.

re: #629 CoRev

As for you CoRev, you are simply a liar and a deceiver. You claim to "look" at all sides daily... but as the old saying goes, you look but do not see.

You continually link to your website here for one reason only - to drive hits to your webpage which gets far far fewer hits than LGF. IMO the LGF webmaster has been way too kind to you.

631 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:08:20am
632 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 6:07:30am
633 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 10:30:33am

re: #630 freetoken

As for you CoRev, you are simply a liar and a deceiver. You claim to "look" at all sides daily... but as the old saying goes, you look but do not see.

You continually link to your website here for one reason only - to drive hits to your webpage which gets far far fewer hits than LGF. IMO the LGF webmaster has been way too kind to you.

Exactly right, and I'm not feeling too kind this morning. The creep was using LGF to get traffic for his crummy denial website, and then he disses LGF.

So long, CoRev. Go post about how you were banned for speaking truth to power now. You know you want to.

634 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 12:28:35pm

[Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Whilst no scientist myself and code is alien - the zillion comments by experienced people here suggests the data is tainted beyond any abiluty to be meaningful

Surely you agree.

635 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 12:33:50pm

Charles, even George Monbiot complains about the new deniers:

"I have seldom felt so alone. Confronted with crisis, most of the environmentalists I know have gone into denial. The emails hacked from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia, they say, are a storm in a tea cup, no big deal, exaggerated out of all recognition. It is true that climate change deniers have made wild claims which the material can’t possibly support (the end of global warming, the death of climate science). But it is also true that the emails are very damaging.

The response of the greens and most of the scientists I know is profoundly ironic, as we spend so much of our time confronting other people’s denial. Pretending that this isn’t a real crisis isn’t going to make it go away."

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

BTW...on my post above re the code...an example of it was this pearler...I mean...huh???
AS some one said it "show how tree-ring data was tortured into confessing there has lately been a huge rise in temperature."

Uses “corrected” MXD – but shouldn’t usually
; plot past 1960 because these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to
; the real temperatures.,

And:

‘NOTE: recent decline in tree-ring density has been ARTIFICIALLY’
printf,1,’REMOVED to facilitate calibration. THEREFORE, post-1960 values’
printf,1,’will be much closer to observed temperatures then they should be,’
printf,1,’which will incorrectly imply the reconstruction is more skilful’
printf,1,’than it actually is.

636 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:22:22pm

re: #635 yakabebe

Oh, I get it -- now you're willing to accept the word of George Monbiot, all of a sudden. That wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he's saying what you want to hear, would it?

637 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:23:00pm

re: #634 yakabebe

[Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Whilst no scientist myself and code is alien - the zillion comments by experienced people here suggests the data is tainted beyond any abiluty to be meaningful

Surely you agree.

No, I don't agree. And stop calling me Shirley.

638 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:29:49pm

re: #636 Charles

Mate...I'm not "accepting" his word of being indicative of anything BUT the CLANGING that most people seem to be hearing over this - unless of course - your mind is absolutely "made up".

And that Charles, as I understand it, is a mental state anathema to the "scientific method".

Think about it

639 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:44:35pm

re: #638 yakabebe

You're right, my mind is made up. I've read the emails, I've looked at the documents, and this is the biggest pile of nothing I've ever seen.

I fully expect global warming deniers to try their best to turn this into a gigantic scandal, but it's not going to succeed, because anyone who reads this stuff without a huge screaming bias will realize how utterly inconsequential it is.

640 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:13:15pm

More on the modus operandi of the warmist's almost evangelical attempts to steer the world's opinion...even if the science was at least a teeny weeny bit dodgy

William Kininmonth, former head of the National Climate Centre at the Bureau of Meteorology, tells me he reported in "Energy and the Environment" on another astonishing attempt to stifle sceptics:
As an invited speaker to an international seminar invited by the Russian Academy of Sciences to discuss the scientific basis of the Kyoto Protocol it was perplexing that the event did not commence on schedule. The delay was particularly odd, as it appeared that the listed speakers were assembled. The program did commence after nearly two hours wait and the reason for the delay became apparent. Sir David King, chief scientific adviser to the United Kingdom government, had been lobbying vigorously to have a number of the listed international speakers omitted from the program. He even submitted his own program of speakers! Having failed in his objective, King absented himself from the proceedings for the remainder of the day…

The pre-seminar lobbying by Sir David King further underscored the politicisation of the climate change issue. It became apparent that the objective of the UK delegation was to defend the findings of the IPCC and convince the members of the Russian Academy of Sciences that the science of climate change is settled… The input of independent scientists (at the meeting), who could demonstrate shortcomings in the IPCC findings, clearly would hamper the UK delegation in meeting its objectives and were to be silenced.

Why the UK government would want to take on the role of sheriff in defence of the IPCC is not clear until one remembers that the Blair Government has made the promotion of Kyoto and hence its ‘war against global warming’ a top foreign policy objective for reasons that can only be speculated about.

641 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:26:26pm

re: #640 yakabebe

And who were these "international speakers" that King objected to? Are we supposed to just assume that's an unimportant little detail?

It's amazing how much this kind of willful distortion resembles the tactics of creationists.

642 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:30:38pm
643 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:34:35pm

re: #641 Charles

Trivialise all you want - that doens change the fact this occured.

Sir David King’s Queenie Fit-Shutting down dissent.
By Iain Murray

The scene was a scientific workshop set up to discuss the science of global warming. It took place in a non-Western country and was convened by the country's Academy of Sciences. Delegates came from all over the world. Yet the delegation from one major Western power behaved in a most undiplomatic fashion. The way the science was being presented was inconvenient to their political agenda, so they tried to get the scientists they disagreed with silenced. The organizers refused, so the delegation went to its government to exert political pressure. The organizers still refused, so the delegation disrupted the conference. When it became apparent they weren't going to get their way, they walked out.

The chairman of the conference told the press that the leader of the disruptive delegation "had brought several scientists along with him and he insisted that the program should include among the speakers only those scientists and no other. So, he came over, selected scientists at his discretion, scientists who were to be given the floor in his opinion and scientists who were to be denied an opportunity to speak." A top official of the host government commented, "For some participants the main goal was the search for the truth, understanding of real processes. Other people had the task of disrupting the seminar, so that other people who were seeking the truth could not do so."

Yet another example of arrogant America disrupting the world's attempts to solve the climate change program? No. The delegation in question was that of the United Kingdom, and the conference was that held last week in Moscow, hosted by the Russian Academy of Sciences.

The British delegation was led by Sir David King, chief scientific adviser to Her Majesty's government. Sir David has gone on record as saying that, "Global warming is worse than terrorism." As far as Sir David and Tony Blair's government is concerned, there should be no need for any further scientific debate on global warming. They have taken the scientific consensus that global warming is happening and cheerfully conflated it with the debatable argument that it will be catastrophic for mankind unless we suppress energy use now.

The religious fervor with which Tony Blair's government is acting on this belief has many Britons unnerved. Dr. David Bellamy, one of the titans of the British environmental movement, wrote in the Daily Mail that he considers global warming alarmism "poppycock." Analysts predict a 40 percent rise in electricity prices as a result of the government's energy suppression policies. British manufacturers foresee having to put thousands out of work as they lose out in competitiveness to overseas suppliers. The Times's economics editor has written that the environmentalists pushing these policies "are like the medieval monks who favored self-flagellation as the road to virtue. For a Government to enshrine such thinking in policy is truly perverse."

On learning of the program arranged by the Russian Academy, he proposed a different program that would censor the voices of scientists who do not believe global warming is a worse threat to the world than terrorism. Such delegates included Paul Reiter of the Paris-based Pasteur Institute, who presented the predominant view of the world's malaria experts that global warming is not a major factor in the increasing incidence of vector-borne diseases.

Theres more is you want to read it
[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

644 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:46:06pm

re: #642 RedHouseBlueState

Sorry, you don't get to leave your long, dramatic goodbye cruel world message at my site.

645 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #643 yakabebe

In other words, you don't care who those other speakers were, do you?

As usual, there's a lot more to this than the deniers want to admit. First, this conference was FIVE years ago. Second, Sir David King objected to the speakers because some of them were simply not qualified in the field of climatology, and others were flat out kooks, installed on the program by Russian climate deniers.

This story is one-sided deceptive crap, like so much of the propaganda pushed out by the denial industry.

646 yakabebe  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 3:00:14pm

Fair comment i guess and you seem to know of it than I

But I'd ask you about that abbreviated list i posted a while back of scientists - who are clearly eminent in their fields and not kooks at all.

What does a layman such as I - seeing such a list and knowing this is merely a snapshot of a larger group of qualified experts - what am I supposed to do with this dissenting and competing point of view?

What do you do with it.

And how...from that...do you get to the science is settled?

You didnt answer me that.

647 nmdesertrat  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:17:27pm

I've read from comment 1 to 646, and sorry, but Hadley CRU has a lot of 'xplainin' to do. To me, they were trying to game the peer-review process by deciding which publications to submit to, friendly/unfriendly editors. Their arguments about not releasing data sets and methodology are hollow, especially when their hypotheses are based on models and impossible to prove except over tens of years. Tell me, what is the difference between Hadley CRU's actions and those of a bank or mortgage broker who finds friendly appraisers who will appraise a property sufficiently high to meet the loan requirements? Or banks that would tell appraisers that if their appraisal doesn't come in high enough, they will quit sending them jobs? Hadley CRU is not a private organization trying to protect trade secrets, but a government-funded group that is advocating a massive change in the world economy.

In 1988, I did a MSME thesis relating to parachute flow oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA200282 . The USAF was trying to drop a 1-ton object from low altitude from a plane just under Mach 1, and have the object soft-land. Parachutes had been designed empirically, so they hired Sandia Labs to design a parachute. Cue the Wily E. Coyote video: F-111 streaks by. Large iron-bomb-shaped object drops. Parachute opens. Parachute collapses. Result: a 1-ton lawn dart. Repeat 9 more times with different size round parachutes.So my thesis adviser (Turgut Sarpkaya research.nps.navy.mil/cgi-bin/vita.cgi?id=1023568127&p=display_vita ) got involved. The PhD student ahead of me determined that the cause was the annular vortex being generated by the edge of the round parachute would "catch up" to the parachute as the parachute slowed down, causing a higher pressure on the back of the parachute than on the inside. One portion of the parachute would collapse, and there was insufficient altitude remaining for the parachute to reinflate.My task was to see if the porosity of a 2-D parachute (aka a cambered plate) could be modeled in FORTRAN, and if so, could adjusting the porosity prevent the parachute from collapsing.

648 nmdesertrat  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:18:23pm

continuing:
How does this relate to CRU and scientific method? As part of the research, I investigated previous similar work. One study was by Inoue, "A New Approach to Flow Problems Past a Porous Plate.", published in AIAA Journal, v. 23, no. 10, pp. 952-958. It was promising, but it dealt only with uniform steady flow. The flow did not decelerate, and was impulsively started at a constant velocity. Even so, it looked good at the macro level, so I recreated his method to see how it reacted to differential pressure across the plate. When examined much more closely, I found that because Inoue's method did not take into account the relationship between flow and differential pressure, or the variability of porosity along the camber and with time, it was acting as though matter was being destroyed as it hit the camber and being magically recreated on the back side. Essentially, Inoue's computer model matched experimental observations, but not for the right reasons.

This is why it is essential for scientific researchers to make both their data and methodology available to other researchers. If you are buying a house, the inspector is chosen by you, not the seller. Similarly, the bank choses the appraiser, not the buyer. If you are becoming a major investor in a business, you want the audits at minimum to be done by a neutral party, and preferably by an aggressive party. You want to know where the skeletons are. The Hadley CRU researchers decided that they did not want to give information to skeptics, because they were afraid that the skeptics would poke holes in it. Wait just a second, isn't that how things are made better, whether it's a computer model or an airplane? Especially with a computer model, the data and assumptions are absolutely key. What data was not fed to the model? Were they really statistical outliers? What assumptions were used? Where was data interpolated or smoothed, and why? An independent skeptical re

649 nmdesertrat  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:32:59pm

the last line should read: An independent skeptical reviewer is going to require justification for everything, and it should be so. Look at the history of cold fusion.

650 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:54:02pm
651 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:56:09pm

re: #650 Smashmaster

I'm sure this will come as a great disappointment to you, but you don't get to post your "goodbye cruel world" message at my site.

652 hugh59  Thu, Nov 26, 2009 7:34:38am

re: #505 Charles

Sure, that's a reasonable solution. Let's just throw out all the scientific data on global warming and start over from scratch, because of some emails from a decade ago.

/eye roll

Charles, the people charged with collecting, organizing, and preserving the data have compromised their integrity. The credibility of the temperature record they have created is now subject to dispute.

It is not just the emails, now there are people reviewing the computer code used to evaluate the data. The comments in the code itself (assuming that this is genuine) indicate that the source data is of questionable integrity. The code appears to have been written to force output that is consistent with the theories of the researchers.

So, yes, we need to start from scratch.

If this data were merely evidence to be introduced in a civil law suit in the US, I would be able to keep it from being admitted into evidence because there has been a failure to protect the integrity of the data. If this data is not authentic enough to be evidence in a mere civil law suit, it is certainly not authentic enough to be the basis for billions of dollars in government expenditures and major economic programs.

653 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 26, 2009 9:37:00am

re: #652 hugh59

Charles, the people charged with collecting, organizing, and preserving the data have compromised their integrity. The credibility of the temperature record they have created is now subject to dispute.

No, it is not.

It is not just the emails, now there are people reviewing the computer code used to evaluate the data. The comments in the code itself (assuming that this is genuine) indicate that the source data is of questionable integrity. The code appears to have been written to force output that is consistent with the theories of the researchers.

No, it does not. People are taking COMMENTS from the source code out of context, and it's completely ridiculous.

So, yes, we need to start from scratch.

Dream on.

654 hugh59  Fri, Nov 27, 2009 12:39:25pm

Charles,

I hope you had as pleasant a Thanksgiving holiday as I did.

Sorry to come back to this old thread one last time. Passions are so high that I am reluctant to trust anyone with whom I have not worked and has earned my trust. Politics is an ugly business and my fear (and I admit I could be wrong about this) is that politics is infecting the scientific community. You only have to look at the "science" that shows up in litigation too see how bad things can get.

And let's not forget the controversy over "nuclear winter." I just took a peek at Wikipedia and I see that this one is still going on.

655 hugh59  Fri, Nov 27, 2009 2:50:05pm

This topic is now under discussion at the Volokh Conspiracy.

Volokh Conspiracy - Data Sharing and Climate Change Research


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