Catholic Child Abuse Scandal in Ireland Gets Worse

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A newly released 700-page report on child sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland tells a disgusting story of collusion between the Church and Irish police, to cover up these monstrous crimes for more than 60 years: Report Says Police and Catholic Church Hid Abuse in Dublin.

The report is the latest in a series of damning revelations about the church. In May, a report chronicled the sexual, emotional and physical abuse of orphans and foster children over 60 years in a network of church-run residential schools meant to care for the vulnerable and the disadvantaged.

Although that report portrayed a church that seemed institutionally broken, with guilt spread among many, the new one attaches particular blame to those at the top. It reserved particular criticism for the police and for four archbishops of Dublin: John Charles McQuaid, who died in 1973; Dermot Ryan, who died in 1984; Kevin McNamara, who died in 1987; and Cardinal Desmond Connell, who retired in 2004. The report said those four knew of the abuse, but did little about it.

The report, which took three years to prepare, focused on the way complaints about abuse by priests had been handled. It looked into the cases of 46 priests who had been the subject of scores of complaints from about 320 children from 1975 to 2004. Of the 46 priests, 11 have pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting children or have been convicted of that crime. The rest are dead or have not been prosecuted.

The report said the Irish police allowed the church to act with impunity and often referred abuse complaints back to the archdiocese for internal investigations. …

The report details examples of priests who were blatant, notorious abusers, but who were allowed to continue without punishment or censure. One priest admitted to abusing more than 100 children. Another said he had abused, on average, a child every two weeks for 25 years.

One parish priest whose case was examined in the report, the Rev. James McNamee, was locally infamous for his behavior over more than 30 years. Early in Father McNamee’s career, an altar boy said he had seen the priest “bathing with naked adolescent boys and placing the boys on his shoulders”; a parishioner said he had seen the priest exercising in the nude with boys in his backyard.

Numerous complaints against Father McNamee were looked into at various times, and various officials expressed concern, but no action was taken, by either the priests or the nuns who worked with him, the Catholic officials who fielded dozens of allegations, or the police. Father McNamee died in 2002, professing that he had done nothing wrong.

The 60-year span of this report makes another thing clear: the abuse of children has been endemic in the Catholic Church for a long, long time. Countless generations of children were subjected to this nightmare. If this much criminal behavior is found in the last 60 years, what horrors might be discovered if it were possible to investigate even further back in time?

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178 comments
1 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:35:51am

There is a special place in Hell for people who sexually abuse kids.

2 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:37:43am

And there is another special place in hell for those who participated in a cover-up or those who turned a blind eye.

3 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:38:10am

There is also a special place in hell for people who presume to know what place in hell other people will occupy.

See you there!

4 webevintage  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:38:25am

re: #1 Cannadian Club Akbar

There is a special place in Hell for people who sexually abuse kids.

And for those who look the other way because the abuser was a Priest.

5 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:39:30am

What should have been a special place became hell for the victims.

6 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:39:34am

We have seen this as a major story in two countries as of late, the United States and now Ireland. It makes one wonder how much MORE of this is going on world wide. This is terrorism in it's own right.

7 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:40:17am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

There is also a special place in hell for people who presume to know what place in hell other people will occupy.

See you there!

If I was in h ell, I certainly wouldn't want people like YOU there with me. That would really be hell.

8 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:41:09am

Maybe hell is really having to spend eternity with all the people you you never want to spend eternity with?

9 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:41:13am

re: #3 Cato the Elder

There is also a special place in hell for people who presume to know what place in hell other people will occupy.

See you there!

what do any of you know about hell?...

10 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #9 albusteve

what do any of you know about hell?...

I dated a vegan once.

I know all about hell.

11 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:43:35am

re: #9 albusteve

what do any of you know about hell?...

Hell Ain't No Bad Place To Be, according to AC/DC.

12 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:43:54am

re: #10 researchok

...AND she wore peasant dresses and Earth shoes.

13 LatinGent  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:44:43am

Hell only exists in the minds of fundamentalists and people who should have got divorcedre: #9 albusteve

what do any of you know about hell?...

14 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:45:08am

re: #10 researchok

I dated a vegan once.

I know all about hell.

yes, hell is here in this 'world'

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:45:47am

At the same time, young people who expressed their sexuality consensually with one another were assured they were terrible sinners, and girls who got pregnant were treated like scum.

Meanwhile, the Church protected predators.

What a tragedy. (Cato, can I use that word here?)

16 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:45:55am

re: #13 LatinGent

Hell only exists in the minds of fundamentalists and people who should have got divorced

There are fundamentalists who do not believe in hell. You paint with a broad brush when you say that.

17 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:45:56am

As a lifelong Roman Catholic I have always been disgusted and ashamed of this legacy
As a lifelong Roman Catholic I also feel blessed that in 12 years of Catholic shooling, 6 years as a alter boy, and a lifetime of church activities and involvement both in my youth and adulthood I have never encountered any of these monsters

18 researchok  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:46:14am

re: #14 albusteve

yes, hell is here in this 'world'

It took me years to get over the trauma and nightmares.

19 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:46:43am

re: #17 sattv4u2

As a lifelong Roman Catholic I have always been disgusted and ashamed of this legacy
As a lifelong Roman Catholic I also feel blessed that in 12 years of Catholic shooling, 6 years as a alter boy, and a lifetime of church activities and involvement both in my youth and adulthood I have never encountered any of these monsters

that you know of

20 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:47:05am

re: #13 LatinGent

Hell only exists in the minds of fundamentalists and people who should have got divorced

I'm not a "fundamentalist" nor have I ever gotten not needed a divorce and it 'exists" in my mind

21 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:47:22am

If the priest mentioned in the article abused a child every two weeks for 25 years, that's more than 650 children this rotten bastard molested.

22 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:47:26am

re: #17 sattv4u2

As a lifelong Roman Catholic I have always been disgusted and ashamed of this legacy
As a lifelong Roman Catholic I also feel blessed that in 12 years of Catholic shooling, 6 years as a alter boy, and a lifetime of church activities and involvement both in my youth and adulthood I have never encountered any of these monsters

Evidently you didn't hang around with the right people. I have a similar history as you do, and I saw a lot of it.

23 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:47:50am

re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist

What a tragedy. (Cato, can I use that word here?)

Fiasco and crime would be better.

24 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:47:55am

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

Evidently you didn't hang around with the right people. I have a similar history as you do, and I saw a lot of it.

My condolences

25 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #24 sattv4u2

My condolences

I don't need any condolences.

26 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:50:46am

re: #10 researchok

I dated a vegan once.

I know all about hell.

I've met vegans and read vegan rants. That was purgatorial.

I can't imagine being intimately involved with one.

27 albusteve  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:50:58am

there is only one Hell...

Image: hell-720235.jpg

28 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:51:32am

re: #26 Cato the Elder

I've met vegans and read vegan rants. That was purgatorial.

I can't imagine being intimately involved with one.

Most of them do eat meat, occasionally, just have to get them in the right mood.

29 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:52:28am

I wonder how many children in the Third World have been molested over the years.

30 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:53:22am

re: #29 MandyManners

I wonder how many children in the Third World have been molested over the years.

That's the question I posed above. We've had investigations into this in the US and now Ireland, but I suspect this is world wide.

31 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:53:28am

re: #18 researchok

It took me years to get over the trauma and nightmares.

Was your GF an "ethical" or a "lifestyle" vegan?

There was an EV rant in the NYT op-eds recently. The guy managed to cram in more pomposity, self-righteousness and arrogance per sentence than anybody I've ever read.

32 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:55:00am

re: #29 MandyManners

I wonder how many children in the Third World have been molested over the years.

In general or by priest?

33 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:55:10am
If this much criminal behavior is found in the last 60 years, what horrors might be discovered if it were possible to investigate even further back in time?


I also wonder about what is happening in other countries. The Church has had major problems with child abuse in the US, Ireland and Australia. A few cases get reported in South America and the rest of Europe but I suspect the Church still has enough allies with the police and politicians in these countries that are still covering up crimes.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:55:52am

re: #29 MandyManners

I wonder how many children in the Third World have been molested over the years.

It's a bit like what Julie Burchill says, about how you can count, to the last million, how many people communism killed, but you'll never get the full count for capitalism.

We'll never know. We're never going to get the full damage count for all the children raped and molested and beaten over the centuries. Even if we limit our scope of inquiry to the Catholic Church, we're simply never going to know.

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:58:17am

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Was your GF an "ethical" or a "lifestyle" vegan?

There was an EV rant in the NYT op-eds recently. The guy managed to cram in more pomposity, self-righteousness and arrogance per sentence than anybody I've ever read.

I hung out with vegans in college. It's annoying as hell, and I have been a vegetarian for occasional chunks of years.

In general I stand up for people's right to eat whatever they want, within legal and rational limits, but when you find yourself watching a friend interrogate a devout Buddhist about exactly how the vegetables are cleaned, you start to wonder.

36 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:58:47am

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Was your GF an "ethical" or a "lifestyle" vegan?

There was an EV rant in the NYT op-eds recently. The guy managed to cram in more pomposity, self-righteousness and arrogance per sentence than anybody I've ever read.

Just this morning I wondered whether an ethical vegan should turn down an organ transplant. I should ask that guy.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:59:31am

re: #36 wrenchwench

Just this morning I wondered whether an ethical vegan should turn down an organ transplant. I should ask that guy.

I suppose the possible distinction is that the owner of the organ designated it for transplant.

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:02:13am

I remember seeing Sheldon Kennedy on ESPN talking about the aftermath of sexual abuse. (by a coach, not a priest) Kennedy was an NHL player for those who don't know.

39 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:02:38am

re: #29 MandyManners

I wonder how many children in the Third World have been molested over the years.

If you mean in general, I have something I know from personal experience. When I was in Poland in Feb. 2005, doing research on the orphans of Janusz Korczak for my play "A Field of Buttercups," I discovered at the turn of the 1900's, many/most children were looked on as a burden unless they had some way of producing for the family or the community. It was not unusual for children to be treated like animals, and some of the stories of abuse I read were horrendous.

Dickens of course touched on this, but it's really different when you are sitting in a foreign country, going through archives of actual dated material, and reading these accounts, not in a novel, but from actual history.

Janusz Korczak was very much involved with changing this way of treating children, all across Europe.

40 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:04:46am
41 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:05:58am

The people covering this stuff up are worse than the initial perpetrators.

For every sick, twisted person who abuses a child, there are are often many more involved in the cover up. What the hell is their motivation? That's what makes this so difficult for me to understand.

42 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:09:23am

re: #41 HelloDare

The people covering this stuff up are worse than the initial perpetrators.

For every sick, twisted person who abuses a child, there are are often many more involved in the cover up. What the hell is their motivation? That's what makes this so difficult for me to understand.

I have read case studies, one where a woman covered for her husband and the grandchild was the victim.

43 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:10:41am

Disgusting. It's absolutely unconscionable that these abuses were covered up, tolerated, or otherwise accepted by the Church.

I was born and raised Catholic, but over the last 18 years, stories like this, along with my disagreements with the Vatican over things like gay rights, the ordination of women, and birth control have made it impossible for me to consider myself a Catholic anymore. I just can't do it. My conscience won't let me.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:12:34am

re: #42 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have read case studies, one where a woman covered for her husband and the grandchild was the victim.

One of my college friends had that happen. Her grandfather molested her, and her grandmother's response was that she must have led him on, and this was just how men were.

We know this man molested one of his sons, we suspect both, but one isn't talking. Then his granddaughter. His wife stood by his side the whole time, and never interfered, because it would cause a scandal, and she was a 'good wife'.

45 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:12:56am

This stuff goes all the way to the Pope. Cardinal Law whisked out of Massachusetts jurisdiction and rewarded with a cushy job at the Vatican. Cardinal Mahony was allowed to sandbag an investigation till the very last moment, right up until he would have had to testify.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:14:44am

re: #45 HelloDare

This stuff goes all the way to the Pope. Cardinal Law whisked out of Massachusetts jurisdiction and rewarded with a cushy job at the Vatican. Cardinal Mahony was allowed to sandbag an investigation till the very last moment, right up until he would have had to testify.

I've watched my father and the people in his parish struggle through this for years now, and it makes me so damn mad. At one point, people in the San Francisco parishes, probably elsewhere too, were offering to pay bills for the parish, or buy stuff the school needed, rather than give cash as an offering, that might be spent on God knows what by the Archdiocese.

47 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:14:45am

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

The son who isn't talking is gonna "pop" one day. (not violently, emotionally)

48 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:16:02am

re: #21 Charles

If the priest mentioned in the article abused a child every two weeks for 25 years, that's more than 650 children this rotten bastard molested.

And a lot of abused children grow up to be abusive adults, so the crime continues, like deliberately setting a forest fire.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:16:15am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

The son who isn't talking is gonna "pop" one day. (not violently, emotionally)

I would guess. He did encourage his daughter's bulimia, for years, which didn't help either of them.

I'm not in touch with the family anymore, but I know my friend will not let her grandparents be alone even for a second with her own children.

50 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:16:28am

re: #45 HelloDare

This stuff goes all the way to the Pope. Cardinal Law whisked out of Massachusetts jurisdiction and rewarded with a cushy job at the Vatican. Cardinal Mahony was allowed to sandbag an investigation till the very last moment, right up until he would have had to testify.

This goes further than that. It goes to thousands and thousands of years of priest and clergy who have used myths and fairy tales to try to control politics and people, nations and nationals and lord over the "souls" of millions. And what is the fruit of all this? If you think any of the "good" that religion has done for society out weights something like this, you have a very warped sense of justice.

51 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:19:38am

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

Is the play you spoke of earlier based on this subject?

52 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:20:31am

Tiger Woods: Injuries Caused by Wife, Not SUV

Tiger has yet to be formally interviewed by the Florida Highway Patrol -- that should happen this afternoon. But we're told Tiger had a conversation Friday -- with a non-law enforcement type -- detailing what went down before his Escalade hit a fire hydrant.

We're told he said his wife had confronted him about reports that he was seeing another woman. The argument got heated and, according to our source, she scratched his face up. We're told it was then Woods beat a hasty retreat for his SUV -- but according to our source, Woods says his wife followed behind with a golf club. As Tiger drove away, she struck the vehicle several times with the club.

We're told Woods became "distracted," thought the vehicle was stopped, and looked to see what had happened. At that point the SUV hit the fire hydrant and then hit a tree.

We're also told Woods had said during the conversation Friday he had been taking prescription pain medication for an injury, which could explain why he seemed somewhat out of it at the scene.

53 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:21:24am

Here is Cardinal Bernard Law's punishment.

After his resignation, John Paul appointed Law to a post in Rome, putting him in charge of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, with the title of Archpriest.[1]

He is also a member of the Congregations for the Oriental Churches, the Clergy, Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, Evangelisation of Peoples, Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, Catholic Education, Bishops as well as the Pontifical Council for the Family. He held membership of all these congregations and of the council before resigning from the governance of the Archdiocese of Boston, and at that time was also a member of the Pontifical Council for Culture.[2]

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:21:33am

re: #52 Racer X

Tiger Woods: Injuries Caused by Wife, Not SUV

Tiger has yet to be formally interviewed by the Florida Highway Patrol -- that should happen this afternoon. But we're told Tiger had a conversation Friday -- with a non-law enforcement type -- detailing what went down before his Escalade hit a fire hydrant.

We're told he said his wife had confronted him about reports that he was seeing another woman. The argument got heated and, according to our source, she scratched his face up. We're told it was then Woods beat a hasty retreat for his SUV -- but according to our source, Woods says his wife followed behind with a golf club. As Tiger drove away, she struck the vehicle several times with the club.

We're told Woods became "distracted," thought the vehicle was stopped, and looked to see what had happened. At that point the SUV hit the fire hydrant and then hit a tree.

We're also told Woods had said during the conversation Friday he had been taking prescription pain medication for an injury, which could explain why he seemed somewhat out of it at the scene.

Gevalt.

55 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:23:30am

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Was your GF an "ethical" or a "lifestyle" vegan?

There was an EV rant in the NYT op-eds recently. The guy managed to cram in more pomposity, self-righteousness and arrogance per sentence than anybody I've ever read.

To cap it all off, after telling us how he doesn't knowingly use anything that contains any animal products at all (even renewable ones whose harvesting doesn't harm the animals, like wool or silk), he reveals that he keeps a captive cat for his own pleasure.

LOL

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:25:02am

re: #55 Cato the Elder

To cap it all off, after telling us how he doesn't knowingly use anything that contains any animal products at all (even renewable ones whose harvesting doesn't harm the animals, like wool or silk), he reveals that he keeps a captive cat for his own pleasure.

LOL

Does he feed the cat meat?

57 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:25:10am

re: #52 Racer X

If she had whacked him into a coma with one of his own golf clubs, I might be interested in this story.

58 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #51 Cannadian Club Akbar

Is the play you spoke of earlier based on this subject?

Not abuse specifically... see...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

It's about Korczak and his orphans who were one of the first groups of people to be sent to Treblinka from the Warsaw Ghetto.

A copy of the script can be yours if you want to read it. Email me from that the link at...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

(I just noticed the email link on the "Buttercups" page is my old one. I need to correct that.)

It was the winner of the 2007 Colorado Producers Guild New Ventures Play Series and received a public reading at the theatre at the Mizal Center in Denver.

59 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:25:33am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Does he feed the cat meat?

Good question.

60 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:26:11am

This is no good. Fix it. Punish the guilty. Period.

61 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:26:52am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Does he feed the cat meat?

He has to. Cats must have meat. Dogs can eat a vegetarian diet - but not cats.

62 Deseeded  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:27:27am

"If this much criminal behavior is found in the last 60 years, what horrors might be discovered if it were possible to investigate even further back in time?"

Not to defend ANYTHING about the Catholic Church, but imagine if other religions investigated claims of child abuse as (not even very) thoroughly? The mind spins.

63 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:27:48am

re: #55 Cato the Elder

Captive cat ?

WTF

Ask the cat.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:28:00am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

I'll email you later about the script. I got your address.

65 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:28:29am

re: #59 Cato the Elder

I have never heard of a vegan cat.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #61 Racer X

He has to. Cats must have meat. Dogs can eat a vegetarian diet - but not cats.

"You're a blood'ound. You want meat. If you were meant to eat muesli, they'd 'ave called you something else."
--Shirley Valentine

67 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:28:55am

re: #63 Ojoe

Captive cat ?

WTF

Ask the cat.

LOL!

The cat might respond that it is the human who is held captive.

68 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:29:27am

re: #56 SanFranciscoZionist

Does he feed the cat meat?

He wouldn't have much choice in the matter. Cats are obligate carnivores, so no matter what he feeds the cat, there's going to be some sort of animal fat or animal protein in it.

My best friend is a vegetarian and has been for the better part of 20 years now, but even she rolls her eyes at the EV types like that op-ed guy. As she put it to me, there's choosing not to eat meat or animal products, and there's being a self-righteous douche who tries to force others into your way of eating. I can respect one, but not the other.

69 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:29:32am

re: #67 Racer X

Exactly.

70 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:30:26am

re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'll email you later about the script. I got your address.

Good. It's a WORD document, manuscript form (hasn't been published yet). It's a hard read, that's probably why it hasn't been picked up by any theatre in Denver yet. Almost all of my scripts have been produce at least once locally, some nationally, but this one has had a "hands off" attitude. It's not a happy ending, and of course, if anyone knows anything about the Warsaw Ghetto, they know where it all ends.

71 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:30:53am

"I love animals — They're delicious."

(quote any cat)

72 Deseeded  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:31:06am

Oh man, vegan cats...I think I've spied the apocalypse! :D

Meat is murder! Tasty, tasty murder!

73 Mikko_Sandt  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:31:07am

What can you expect from an institution built on the idea that sexual neeeds ought to be repressed? You can't fool nature.

74 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:31:28am

bbiam.

75 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:31:54am

This is the kind of thing that reminds me that St. Thomas Moore burned people alive for reading the Bible. I was named after him.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, the wonderful IQ2 series debate on "Is the Catholic Church a Force for Good in the World"?

Part 1 of 5

76 Summer Seale  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:32:09am

I'm not going to bash Catholicism right now, and anyway I don't have the time. However, I just have to say that the whole celibacy thing really has got to go. It's been remarked on for hundreds and hundreds of years and it simply just cannot be healthy for the mind or the society revolving around and within it.

I know most priests are not child molesters - I take that as a given. But the fact is that their lifestyle, at this point, really has to be called into question.

77 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:32:31am

re: #72 Deseeded

Oh man, vegan cats...I think I've spied the apocalypse! :D

That's what the cat would say. They can't survive on a vegan diet. They'd starve.

78 Deseeded  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #77 Lidane

That's what the cat would say. They can't survive on a vegan diet. They'd starve.

Indeed! Poor thing would develop a catnip habit and waste away.

79 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #73 Mikko_Sandt

What can you expect from an institution built on the idea that sexual neeeds ought to be repressed? You can't fool nature.

"Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

repressed?

80 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:34:11am
U.S. Tries New Tack Against Taliban

Coalition Works With Afghan Officials to Offer Militants Jobs and Protection if They Lay Down Weapons

Here's a cookie. Unclench?

81 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:34:13am

re: #76 Summer

I'm not going to bash Catholicism right now, and anyway I don't have the time. However, I just have to say that the whole celibacy thing really has got to go. It's been remarked on for hundreds and hundreds of years and it simply just cannot be healthy for the mind or the society revolving around and within it.

I know most priests are not child molesters - I take that as a given. But the fact is that their lifestyle, at this point, really has to be called into question.

I won't blame celibacy for their behavior.

82 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

I've watched my father and the people in his parish struggle through this for years now, and it makes me so damn mad. At one point, people in the San Francisco parishes, probably elsewhere too, were offering to pay bills for the parish, or buy stuff the school needed, rather than give cash as an offering, that might be spent on God knows what by the Archdiocese.

Sad. Sort of like child-proofing your home if you've got a little kid. Except you're worried about them hurting other people.

83 Cineaste  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:35:11am

Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

The Intelligence Squared debate is great.

84 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:02am

re: #70 Walter L. Newton

Good. It's a WORD document, manuscript form (hasn't been published yet). It's a hard read, that's probably why it hasn't been picked up by any theatre in Denver yet. Almost all of my scripts have been produce at least once locally, some nationally, but this one has had a "hands off" attitude. It's not a happy ending, and of course, if anyone knows anything about the Warsaw Ghetto, they know where it all ends.

I have a script registered with the guild about the subject at had. Not a happy movie. Not even close.

85 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:07am

re: #83 Cineaste

Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

The Intelligence Squared debate is great.

I don't have to watch that to answer that question for me. My answer is NO, and that would be my answer for all religion.

86 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:09am

re: #83 Cineaste

Snap.

87 Racer X  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:40am

re: #78 Deseeded

Indeed! Poor thing would develop a catnip habit and waste away.

Pretty soon you would catch him sneaking into the neighbors house through the doggy door, looking for anything to steal and sell to the neighborhood kids to feed his addiction.

88 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #84 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have a script registered with the guild about the subject at had. Not a happy movie. Not even close.

hand, not had. PIMF

89 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:36:57am

re: #76 Summer

I'm not going to bash Catholicism right now, and anyway I don't have the time. However, I just have to say that the whole celibacy thing really has got to go. It's been remarked on for hundreds and hundreds of years and it simply just cannot be healthy for the mind or the society revolving around and within it.

I know most priests are not child molesters - I take that as a given. But the fact is that their lifestyle, at this point, really has to be called into question.

The problem with trying to link celibacy with child abuse would mean if the church eliminated the celibacy issue those that are committing this crime would be attracted to adult women, not little boys. (imho)

90 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:37:20am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I don't have to watch that to answer that question for me. My answer is NO, and that would be my answer for all religion.

Even Scientology?/

91 Deseeded  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:37:25am

re: #87 Racer X

Pretty soon you would catch him sneaking into the neighbors house through the doggy door, looking for anything to steal and sell to the neighborhood kids to feed his addiction.

Hahaha!

Neighbor's dog: "Damn crackhead cat next store stole my squeaky toy!"

92 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:37:50am

re: #89 sattv4u2

The problem with trying to link celibacy with child abuse would mean if the church eliminated the celibacy issue those that are committing this crime would be attracted to adult women, not little boys. (imho)

How many of these abusers were molested when they were children?

93 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:38:32am

How many of their victims went on to molest?

94 jaunte  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:39:29am

re: #89 sattv4u2

I don't think celibacy is the problem. Abusers gravitate to positions of power, so they naturally wind up in places where they can have authority over weaker people. Closed and self-protective hierarchies are ideal.

95 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:39:29am

I cannot understand. They claimed to represent Christ. Christ is the very embodiment of compassion.

Where did it go?

Was it Compassion for me, and not for thee?

96 Raryn  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:39:35am

I'm not Catholic and I'm definitely not one to defend child molesters, and honestly think that they should have been thrown under the bus rather than protected by the Church, but we should remember that even the most pessimistic estimates find that the *vast* majority of Catholic priests are good individuals who do their best to help the community within their beliefs. Policies at the top that lead to coverups need to be changed, but some accounts I've read of people discuss this villify their local parish priest who has (likely) had nothing to do with this scandal, and I don't think thats right.

97 Cato the Elder  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:40:04am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I don't have to watch that to answer that question for me. My answer is NO, and that would be my answer for all religion.

I would say the same thing about organized, for-profit sports, but that's not going to stop idiots from worshiping at those altars, either.

98 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #84 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have a script registered with the guild about the subject at had. Not a happy movie. Not even close.

I do have a play about child molestation, it's based on Joanne Greenberg's most current book "Appearances." Joanne is the author of "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden" which most Lizards know I adapted too. "Appearances" was the winner of the 2008 Colorado Producers Guild New Ventures Play Series and received a public reading in Denver (I've won best play in that competition two years running). That's another one no theatre in town wants to touch. I've written two award winning plays (locally award winning) in a row, and I can't get them produced locally.

99 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:40:14am

re: #1 Cannadian Club Akbar

There is a special place in Hell for people who sexually abuse kids.

Not if they forgive themselves./

100 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:40:36am

re: #92 MandyManners

How many of these abusers were molested when they were children?

No idea, and also no excuse for the higher ups in the church covering it up. I read somewhere once that there is not more percentage of priests who are molesters than in the lay population of men. That stated, it's still unconscionable that it happens within the church in that it HAS to be of higher moral standard than the lay population

101 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:41:33am

re: #99 Naso Tang

Not if they forgive themselves./

Bullshit (of course, that's just my opinion).

102 HelloDare  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:41:41am

re: #83 Cineaste

Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

The Intelligence Squared debate is great.

I think the debate is lost when the Archbishop from Nigeria gets up and starts talking in that silly getup. At least he took the propeller off his beanie.

103 MandyManners  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:41:58am

I'm about to pop a cork so, I'll wish you all a good day.

104 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #103 MandyManners

I'm about to pop a cork so, I'll wish you all a good day.

in bed

105 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:44:34am

re: #83 Cineaste

Is The Catholic Church A Force For Good In The World

The Intelligence Squared debate is great.

That debate occurred to me too, particularly since the primary defense/explanation for abuse in the church was "but what did everyone else do?". It would appear that this opinion is partly correct, but it is also true that the disclosures did not start from within the church, and they did all they could to squash them when they did occur.

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I sent you an email. Lemme know if you got it.

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:45:24am

It's not that the molestation happened; anyone can see that an orphanage would be a molester magnet.

It's that supposedly sane, "righteous" adults would cover it up and let it go on.

108 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:47:15am

re: #94 jaunte

Abusers gravitate to positions of power, so they naturally wind up in places where they can have authority over weaker people. Closed and self-protective hierarchies are ideal.

This is exactly it. These abusive priests were able to do what they did because they knew the Church would cover for them, denying what they did, moving them to other parishes, silencing the victims, etc.

That's what happens when an institution is more concerned with perpetuating its own existence rather than dealing with any problems that arise. You end up with generations of abusers hurting children and nothing being done, with the full compliance of the hierarchy. It's beyond my comprehension.

109 dugmartsch  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:53:15am

re: #100 sattv4u2

No idea, and also no excuse for the higher ups in the church covering it up. I read somewhere once that there is not more percentage of priests who are molesters than in the lay population of men. That stated, it's still unconscionable that it happens within the church in that it HAS to be of higher moral standard than the lay population

I can guarantee you that the percentage among priests is higher than the general population. Child molesters in the real world rarely have accomplices.

110 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:53:21am

anybody else feeling the holiday spirit yet?

111 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:53:26am

Walter, I sent an email, but it came back. Maybe an old address. Sent another.

112 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:53:47am

I think the LGF poll results are in:

Child molesters are scum and so are the people who cover it up: 99.99%

There is no Ron Paul option.

113 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:54:02am

re: #110 Killgore Trout

anybody else feeling the holiday spirit yet?

[Video]

Fuck it.

114 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:54:41am

re: #111 Cannadian Club Akbar

Walter, I sent an email, but it came back. Maybe an old address. Sent another.

Send it to the email link on this page...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

The other page has my old address.

115 [deleted]  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:55:09am
116 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:55:46am

Rat brain flies jet


Florida scientists have grown a brain in a petri dish and taught it to fly a fighter plane.

Scientists at the university of Florida taught the 'brain', which was grown from 25,000 neural cells extracted from a rat embryo, to pilot an F-22 jet simulator. It was taught to control the flight path, even in mock hurricane-strength winds.

"When we first hooked them up, the plane 'crashed' all the time," Dr Thomas DeMarse, an assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida, said. "But over time, the neural network slowly adapts as the brain learns to control the pitch and roll of the aircraft. After a while, it produces a nice straight and level trajectory."

Science!

117 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:56:47am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

Send it to the email link on this page...

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com...]

The other page has my old address.

I sent the second one there.

118 Raryn  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:57:51am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

Rat brain flies jet

Science!

I'm having flashbacks to some nasty anime possibilities if we somehow have organic (rodent) brains controlling things like fighter jets (or mecha :P)

119 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 11:58:33am

re: #110 Killgore Trout

anybody else feeling the holiday spirit yet?



Neat

Got one with Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi dancing with the Grinch That Stole America?
/

120 daddycrack  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:00:08pm

This debate isn't going to solve anything. I hear "catholics" saying that they disagree with church doctrine and that they can't identify themselves as one anymore. Catholicism isn't a democracy, so if you feel comfortable in another denomination or none at all so be it.

But, it was the church's attempts to please people and retain their population that had them lower their standards and allow these monsters into the priesthood.

There is no excuse for this, and especially not the coverups that have followed. But I would expect a better rounded debate from this group than bashing catholics and organized religion.

121 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:03:32pm

re: #120 daddycrack

This debate isn't going to solve anything. I hear "catholics" saying that they disagree with church doctrine and that they can't identify themselves as one anymore. Catholicism isn't a democracy, so if you feel comfortable in another denomination or none at all so be it.

But, it was the church's attempts to please people and retain their population that had them lower their standards and allow these monsters into the priesthood.
There is no excuse for this, and especially not the coverups that have followed. But I would expect a better rounded debate from this group than bashing catholics and organized religion.

I've never seen any report that the church had foreknowledge of someone being a molester prior to their entry into a monastery. Where the church is at fault is keeping them in AFTER they have exposed themselves as such

122 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:05:59pm

re: #120 daddycrack

[snip]

But, it was the church's attempts to please people and retain their population that had them lower their standards and allow these monsters into the priesthood.

[snip]

Yes, blame it on the people, asshole. Hey, this is a 1700 year old organization, who has controlled nations and dynasties, and you tell me they can't keep their priest away from little boys.

Bullshit meter just pegged, idiot.

123 daddycrack  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:07:30pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

And I never said that. Of course you are right with the retention aspect. It is all part of the coverup.

124 daddycrack  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:08:41pm

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I can tell that you are a wonderful person and you mean well. Thank you for the debate.

125 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:10:28pm

re: #123 daddycrack

And I never said that. Of course you are right with the retention aspect. It is all part of the coverup.

ummm, yes, you did

allow these monsters into the priesthood
Perhaps you meant STAY IN the priesthood, but the way you did word it indicates prior knowledge before "allowing them into"

126 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:10:32pm

re: #124 daddycrack

Walter, I can tell that you are a wonderful person and you mean well. Thank you for the debate.

No, I had no "well meaning" toward you and your comment. You're batting zero today on getting the point, you don't. The debate was already up thread, you claimed it was invalid, so, what do you want us to do, just agree with you.

jerk.

127 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:13:28pm

I'm out of here... to the theatre... to work... show business... and all that jazz.

128 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:16:32pm

What a vile, evil institution! Rome knew about the child rape and did NOTHING to prevent it! Miserable, foul clergy.

129 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:22:57pm

re: #120 daddycrack

Catholicism isn't a democracy, so if you feel comfortable in another denomination or none at all so be it.

It's not a democracy, true. However, there is no excuse at all for covering up these abuses. None. The hierarchy knew and did nothing. That's unforgivable, democracy or not.

Also, given the long, bloody history of the Church, even among the papal hierarchy, the abuse of power is not new to Catholicism, so trying to suggest that these cover-ups came as a result of trying to please people or because of lower standards is asinine. Absolute hierarchies are always prone to corruption, graft, and the commission of sins because they're more interested in keeping their power than they are in righting any wrongs.

Honestly the only difference between then and now is that we're actually finding out about the Church's piss poor handling of these abuses. God only knows how long they've been going on, but they're not new. They're not a result of Vatican II, and they're not due to lower standards. These kinds of things have been going on for a long time, only now the veil is lifting on the abuses that were carried out.

130 daddycrack  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:23:48pm

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for calling me an asshole and a jerk. I appreciate that. Coming from you it is a compliment.

Charles, I never have been much of a commenter. But I won't be a reader anymore either. I was sitting down with a friend that is an editor at Media Matters a few months ago talking about our political differences. I told him that the easiest way to describe me was an avid LGF reader. You bring so much reason and thought to your arguments. Ad hominems and such weren't tolerated.

This is only 4 months later and I feel that after reading comment thread after comment thread that any dissent from the core of the thread constitutes a threat to the people who posted it. I don't understand why debate is wrong.

Cheers

131 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #120 daddycrack

But, it was the church's attempts to please people and retain their population that had them lower their standards and allow these monsters into the priesthood.

Sixty years ago, the Catholic Church was not trying to "please people" at all. If you're referring to Vatican 2, that took place in the 1960s -- at least 20 years after the scope of this investigation began.

Sorry, but you can't blame this on efforts to "please people."

132 sattv4u2  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:27:18pm

re: #130 daddycrack

constitutes a threat to the people who posted it

Not condoning anyone calling you a name, but thats a pretty thin hide you have there that ONE poster calling you a name results you abandoning the debate and/or discussion with all others !

133 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:30:07pm

re: #130 daddycrack

That's fine with me. If you're going to try to make excuses for the Catholic Church's role in this horrific scandal, and blame it on some imaginary attempt to "please people," I don't want you around anyway.

134 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #133 Charles

No excuses, and the Catholic Church needs to meet this scandal head on, and clean it up.

135 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:38:48pm

re: #102 HelloDare

I think the debate is lost when the Archbishop from Nigeria gets up and starts talking in that silly getup. At least he took the propeller off his beanie.

The debate was lost when the Archbishop got up and made absolutely NO compelling case whatsoever. That would have been true regardless of what you thought of his "getup".

re: #134 Ojoe

No excuses, and the Catholic Church needs to meet this scandal head on, and clean it up.

Agreed. The Church SHOULD have met this scandal head on years ago; but since it didn't, it's time to do that now. Right now. No more waiting and excusing and covering up.

136 Digital Display  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:40:55pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout

Agreed. The Church SHOULD have met this scandal head on years ago; but since it didn't, it's time to do that now. Right now. No more waiting and excusing and covering up.

How could a man of God harm a child? Disgusting

137 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:41:49pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout

It is so necessary to clean it up; the Church is needed, it is one of the only institutions that does not let itself be blown about by the fickle and current winds of the moment.

138 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:42:17pm

I can hardly believe we had a flounce-off over this topic.

139 Ojoe  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:43:00pm

re: #138 Charles

I hope there are not 2 of them ...

140 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:48:47pm

re: #134 Ojoe

No excuses, and the Catholic Church needs to meet this scandal head on, and clean it up.

Yeah. I'm sure they'll jump right on it. Right away.

/

141 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:51:37pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

How could a man of God harm a child? Disgusting

I dunno Hoops, I do not know.
I think the priesthood may attract certain people for the ACCESS to young folks that priests have while in a position of authority, making it easy to manipulate the young ones.

The Church has known about these things for many many years, and did nothing.

I think these priests should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and what's more, I think there ought to be extra charges and penalties for abusing the power of the office, in addition to whatever child abuse charges they face. If secular law enforcement can't enforce extra penalties, the the Church should do it and should make sure the message is loud and clear - abuse will not be tolerated, particularly when it is abuse of the most vulnerable and impressionable among us.

142 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:56:19pm

re: #140 eclectic infidel

Yeah. I'm sure they'll jump right on it. Right away.

/

From your profile:

"It is not acceptable to have a religion where the alternative to faith is punishment -- that's how you train dogs, not develop people." - Deng Ming-Dao

I'm thinking the Church failed to do anything with these guys because it was indeed trying to 'DEVELOP' them as people, by "forgiving" them and giving them another chance rather than punishing them, when what they deserved was punishment and actually, banishment.

Perhaps you want to rethink your fortune-cookie profile statement.

143 Gang of One  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 12:56:24pm

re: #141 reine.de.tout

I dunno Hoops, I do not know.
I think the priesthood may attract certain people for the ACCESS to young folks that priests have while in a position of authority, making it easy to manipulate the young ones.

The Church has known about these things for many many years, and did nothing.

I think these priests should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and what's more, I think there ought to be extra charges and penalties for abusing the power of the office, in addition to whatever child abuse charges they face. If secular law enforcement can't enforce extra penalties, the the Church should do it and should make sure the message is loud and clear - abuse will not be tolerated, particularly when it is abuse of the most vulnerable and impressionable among us.

Would Rome, has Rome, ever excommunicated anyone guilty of such heinous behavior? Does Rome even excommunicate anymore? Do Catholics fear excommunication as they did in the past?
Honest question, friends.

144 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:02:03pm

re: #143 Gang of One

Would Rome, has Rome, ever excommunicated anyone guilty of such heinous behavior? Does Rome even excommunicate anymore? Do Catholics fear excommunication as they did in the past?
Honest question, friends.

It's my understanding that one can be excommunicated for certain things.

The thing is - excommunication sort of negates the Church's position on "forgiveness'. Rome's mistake was thinking that people would change and that those who asked for and received forgiveness for these incidents would "go and sin no more". NOT SO.

Complete and utter failure of the Church heirarchy to fully understand the nature of pedophilia, the permanent damage done to victims, or to understand the full heinous extent of these actions. No excuse for that - there have been too many studies and too much information about this for the Church hierarchy to be in the dark about it. Either they knew and didn't believe how awful these sorts of crimes are, or they didn't know because they didn't care to find out. Inexcusable, either way.

145 Achilles Tang  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #120 daddycrack

But I would expect a better rounded debate from this group than bashing catholics and organized religion.

Rounded debate? As in cover up and ignore? Since your comment sounds so incredibly stupid, perhaps it has been misunderstood.

How about you explain who and when such topic may be discussed.

146 Gang of One  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:07:27pm

re: #145 Naso Tang

Rounded debate? As in cover up and ignore? Since your comment sounds so incredibly stupid, perhaps it has been misunderstood.

How about you explain who and when such topic may be discussed.

Too late -- he been Stinky Beaumontized.

re: #144 reine.de.tout

Complete and utter failure of the Church heirarchy to fully understand the nature of pedophilia, the permanent damage done to victims, or to understand the full heinous extent of these actions. No excuse for that - there have been too many studies and too much information about this for the Church hierarchy to be in the dark about it. Either they knew and didn't believe how awful these sorts of crimes are, or they didn't know because they didn't care to find out. Inexcusable, either way.

I understand, and agree. Thank you for the response, Reine.

147 ghazidor  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:10:51pm

re: #143 Gang of One

Would Rome, has Rome, ever excommunicated anyone guilty of such heinous behavior? Does Rome even excommunicate anymore? Do Catholics fear excommunication as they did in the past?
Honest question, friends.

Sure they still excommunicate people, they excommunicated everyone who helped the poor nine year old girl who was pregnant with twins because she was raped by her father in Brazil get an abortion. The lawyers who fought for her in court so that she could have the procedure, her mother, the doctors, they were all excommunicated. But not the father who raped her in the first place...go figure.

Even though they had multiple doctors opinions saying it would be impossible for the nine year old's body to carry twins to term. The churches position was that if it killed her as the doctors said it would then that was only Gods will and man should not interfere.

Sigh...

148 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:12:30pm

re: #142 reine.de.tout

I'm thinking the Church failed to do anything with these guys because it was indeed trying to 'DEVELOP' them as people, by "forgiving" them and giving them another chance rather than punishing them, when what they deserved was punishment and actually, banishment.

I don't care what excuse you give for the RCC's recent wave of f*cked up behavior. Banishment? Banishment!?! What are you going on about? Punishment, yes, definitely that. The kind of punishment that results in hard jail time for decades on end. Maybe even for life if that can be legally arranged.

Develop them as people. That is such a terrible excuse, reine. If the Church was trying to develop them, they would have turned them in to the law. You know, there's that commandment that reads, "Thou shalt not lie."

Maybe another commandment is needed that reads "Thou shalt not molest thy parishioners' children." Once the RCC cleans house, which it probably won't.

The quote in my lgf profile doesn't apply to this situation.

-1 for you.

149 OneMonkeysUncle  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:12:39pm

re: #144 reine.de.tout

It's my understanding that one can be excommunicated for certain things.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought the Pope was the only Catholic figure that could excommunicate an individual and that the application of it was at the Pontiff's discretion and for any reason he so chose... Sort of a punishment-of-last-resort that was used mainly as a tool of intimidation? Not that a modern Pope would use it to excommunicate a child abuser, since by definition a Pope would have spent a lifetime in the Church and would have had long association with those who'd be accused of the crime...

150 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:21:40pm

re: #148 eclectic infidel

I don't care what excuse you give for the RCC's recent wave of f*cked up behavior. Banishment? Banishment!?! What are you going on about? Punishment, yes, definitely that. The kind of punishment that results in hard jail time for decades on end. Maybe even for life if that can be legally arranged.

Develop them as people. That is such a terrible excuse, reine. If the Church was trying to develop them, they would have turned them in to the law. You know, there's that commandment that reads, "Thou shalt not lie."

Maybe another commandment is needed that reads "Thou shalt not molest thy parishioners' children." Once the RCC cleans house, which it probably won't.

The quote in my lgf profile doesn't apply to this situation.

-1 for you.

I gave no excuses whatsoever, you are making that up. Read my other comments.

My comment simply had to do with your Chinese fortune-cookie profile quote, which does more to excuse this behavior than ANYTHING I've said.

Minus one for you too, if that a game you want to play.

151 reine.de.tout  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:25:07pm

re: #148 eclectic infidel

I don't care what excuse you give for the RCC's recent wave of f*cked up behavior. Banishment? Banishment!?! What are you going on about? Punishment, yes, definitely that. The kind of punishment that results in hard jail time for decades on end. Maybe even for life if that can be legally arranged.

Develop them as people. That is such a terrible excuse, reine. If the Church was trying to develop them, they would have turned them in to the law. You know, there's that commandment that reads, "Thou shalt not lie."

Maybe another commandment is needed that reads "Thou shalt not molest thy parishioners' children." Once the RCC cleans house, which it probably won't.

The quote in my lgf profile doesn't apply to this situation.

-1 for you.

In case you don't recall it, here is your profile quote:

"It is not acceptable to have a religion where the alternative to faith is punishment -- that's how you train dogs, not develop people." - Deng Ming-Dao

THAT's where the "developing them as people" comes from.

152 Gang of One  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:31:46pm

re: #147 ausador

Sure they still excommunicate people, they excommunicated everyone who helped the poor nine year old girl who was pregnant with twins because she was raped by her father in Brazil get an abortion. The lawyers who fought for her in court so that she could have the procedure, her mother, the doctors, they were all excommunicated. But not the father who raped her in the first place...go figure.

Even though they had multiple doctors opinions saying it would be impossible for the nine year old's body to carry twins to term. The churches position was that if it killed her as the doctors said it would then that was only Gods will and man should not interfere.

Sigh...

Sigh is right. Unbelievable.

153 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:50:51pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

So, you think the quote encourages this behavior and I say it doesn't.

But the quote is besides the point -- the current pope just brushed this issue aside and took no further action. I am of the opinion that Roman leadership will again, turn the other cheek and ignore this as well. And it thoroughly disgusts me.

154 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:53:53pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

I got that. I just don't think the quote excuses this sort of behavior.

155 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:57:11pm

My sympathy goes out to both the victims, who I hope get the help and support they need, and to the good honest Catholics whose tithes and whose faith were used and abused by the perpetrators.

156 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 1:58:19pm

re: #136 HoosierHoops

How could a man of God harm a child? Disgusting

157 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 2:01:10pm

Confession

I find it harder and harder to understand how the Catholic Church as an institution puts up with a lot of the crap it does. The only thing I can conclude is the Sacrament of Penance is their version of the get of of jail free card.

158 Lateralis  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:37:57pm

what horrors might be discovered if it were possible to investigate even further back in time?

Why don't go back further in time and investigate teachers while we are at it.

159 Sheepdogess  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 3:47:34pm

This is abuse of only male children by homosexual priests. Let's toss the PC crap out please. It doesn't help anyone.

160 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 4:56:53pm

re: #159 Sheepdogess

Hmmm. That reminds me of a joke I once heard:

"Bill there likes to *** sheep."

"Oh." [Pause] "Male sheep or female sheep?"

"Female. It's not like he's a pervert or anything."

Or more seriously, I'm amazed the number of people who keep trying to conflate homosexuality with child abuse.

161 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:03:33pm

Homsexual ≠ pedophile, and it's asinine to make that statement.

If anything, the chances are high that these abusers were themselves abused as children and are merely perpetuating the cycle. That has nothing to do with the genders of the people involved or the sexuality of the offender and everything to do with the fact that violence and abuse beget violence and abuse.

Also, the notion that only male children were abused is ridiculous:

[Link: www.snapnetwork.org...]

162 argaman  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:03:41pm

re: #159 Sheepdogess

Actually, it's incorrect to think that only gay priests would molest male children. See this extensive discussion:Facts about homosexuality and child molestation. One point the author makes is that some adults who sexually molest children don't actually have a sexual orientation - they have an age orientation. The Catholic church has tried to push the idea that it's only gay priests who are abusing male children and teenagers, but this is incorrect. It's part of the church's homophobia, not a correct analysis of the sexual orientation of the perpetrators. It's also an easy way to make a scapegoat - if it's "gay priests" who are guilty, then the church hierarchy doesn't have to take any responsibility for its coverup of the abuse.

163 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:04:40pm

re: #161 Lidane

Homsexual

Ugh. PIMF. I can't believe I missed such an obvious typo. =P

164 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:08:23pm

re: #162 argaman

It's also an easy way to make a scapegoat - if it's "gay priests" who are guilty, then the church hierarchy doesn't have to take any responsibility for its coverup of the abuse.

Hence the reason why these abuses are never corrected, but covered up. If you can blame it all on a gay priest, then you don't have any accountability for what happened on your watch.

165 Sheepdogess  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:34:59pm

re: #161 Lidane

AIUI the vast majority of those abused were adolecent males. A pedophile is a person who engages in sex with a prepubescent child. They were not pedophile priests, they were sexual predators who molested "children"..

The RCC is not the only place that covers up this stuff. It occurs often in In elementary education, they call it "passing the trash", and they go to great lengths to cover it up.

166 Kruk  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:40:54pm

re: #165 Sheepdogess

And the fact that abuse occurs (and is covered up) in other settings make the RCC's cover up of the abuse more acceptable...how?

167 Lidane  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 5:49:21pm

re: #165 Sheepdogess

AIUI the vast majority of those abused were adolecent males. A pedophile is a person who engages in sex with a prepubescent child. They were not pedophile priests, they were sexual predators who molested "children".

Whatever definitions you're using, it's still asinine to say that all of the abusers are automatically homosexual just because there were male victims. It's not that simple. The point still stands that most of these abusers were likely themselves abused and are just repeating the cycle.

It's not PC to avoid painting all abusive priests as gay. Calling them all gay just gives the Church a convenient scapegoat and prevents any real action from being taken to stop these kinds of abuses, since they can just point to a few "bad apples" brought in due to lower standards or whatever, and any real progress at cleaning the Church up will never happen.

168 Nemesis6  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 6:25:11pm

The Catholic Church is the biggest legal Mafia, so it's really not strange that this has been going on. Neither is it strange that they hide away their pedo-priests and threaten the victims, because a top document that all Catholic priests abide by states that they have to do this, lest they be excommunicated.

169 DocRambo  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 7:11:27pm

This entire topic is great material for David Letterman. Jay Leno will probably use it, too. Doubt the Pope will use it in his next stand-up gig, though.

170 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 28, 2009 10:05:17pm

re: #169 DocRambo

That's disgusting. Get off my website.

171 Joven  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:34:15am

re: #157 Jeff In Ohio
The Sacrament of Penance is not "get out of jail card". One must make a true confession with sorrow for the sin and a sincere intent to never act in such a way again. You must also accept any penance, including turning yourself over to the police. Obviously this was a perversion of the sacraments and had nothing to with a real act of contrition. The perpetrator and the confessor both have a terrible burden on their souls. God will judge.

172 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:54:26pm

re: #162 argaman

re: #167 Lidane

Main Entry: 1ho·mo·sex·u·al
Pronunciation: ˌhō-mə-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -ˈsek-shəl
Function: adjective
Date: 1892

1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

— ho·mo·sex·u·al·ly adverb

Bing Learn more about "

173 Lidane  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:19:43pm

re: #172 Sheepdogess

re: #167 Lidane

Main Entry: 1ho·mo·sex·u·al

Far too simplistic. Anyone can pull a dictionary definition off a Google or Bing search. It's another thing entirely to say that pedophiles are automatically homosexual, or vice versa, which is what you implied. There is, in fact, evidence to the contrary:

[Link: www.psychologytoday.com...]

[Link: psychology.ucdavis.edu...]

Pedophiles don't have a gender orientation. They have an age orientation. You can't just paint them all as homosexuals because of the genders of the victims. That's a serious misreading of the problem at hand.

Also, it's nice to see that you conveniently ignored the fact that there have been female victims of clergy abuse as well. The Church's abuse scandals are not due to gay priests. They are due to predators who were most likely abused themselves abusing their power over others. That's what rape and abuse are all about, after all. They're about control over others, not sex.

174 hambone  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:52pm

If any other organization had this systemic problem it would be either a pariah or outlawed. If this organization was called the Rotary Club instead of the Catholic Church, the leaders that knew and facilitated the crimes would be in jail with the perpetrators already. The police and government would maybe have done their job. The thing to remember is that the Clergy didn't just rape and torture males, female were also abused. It was not only the priests that were involved.

175 BIGDUKE 6  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:53:36am

The 800 pound Gorilla in this story is that Priesthood is a breeding ground for HOMOSEXUAL pedophiles.

176 BIGDUKE 6  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:56:09am

re: #73 Mikko_Sandt

The Institition seems to do nothing to repress the sexual urges of HOMOSEXUALS using the Church as a buffet table

177 Lidane  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 9:26:47am

re: #175 BIGDUKE 6

The 800 pound Gorilla in this story is that Priesthood is a breeding ground for HOMOSEXUAL pedophiles.

Wrong. The 800-pound gorilla in this story is the Church hierarchy that has systematically covered up and looked away from these abuses in order to continue its own existence and maintain its order and structure. This report goes back 60 some-odd years. That shows a systemic, long-term pattern on the part of the Church to cover things up. That's the real problem here.

Pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality, or heterosexuality, or any gender orientation at all. It's an age disorder, with the pedophile attracted to someone due to their age, not their gender. It's simplistic to just focus on the gender of the victims and the predator. Also, the priesthood has nothing to do with it. There are sexual predators in every denomination, across all religious lines. Catholicism is not unique in this regard.

The issue is the cover-up and the hierarchy doing what they can to bury these abuses and silence the victims.

178 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 3:15:59pm

re: #176 BIGDUKE 6

I'm through letting bigots like you give my site a bad reputation. Go away.


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